[05:51] <Muscovy> I think we might want to consolidate some of our chapters.
[05:51] <Muscovy> For example, we have one on the networking applet.
[05:51] <Muscovy> It could probably be turned into a page or chunk of a page in chapter 1.
[06:27] <Omega> That is a good idea.


[03:42] <cmaloney> http://openmetalcast.com/2017/02/27/open-metalcast-episode-149-chaotic-neutral/
[22:07] <cmaloney> http://n-gate.com/
[22:08] <cmaloney> (Seen at https://www.jwz.org/blog/2017/02/an-annotated-digest-of-the-top-hacker-news-posts/)
[23:25] <gamerchick02> interesting
[23:25] <gamerchick02> it's only 6:25 pm but it feels like 8 pm. i got up too early


[01:35] <callmepk> good morning
[03:39] <duflu> Oops. Morning callmepk
[03:48] <callmepk> Hi duflu
[05:19] <oSoMoN> good morning desktoppers
[05:20] <callmepk> hi oSoMoN
[05:25] <duflu> Hi oSoMoN
[05:25] <duflu> And hi seb128
[05:25] <duflu> Back later...
[05:26] <seb128> hey duflu, and see you later :)
[05:26] <oSoMoN> hey callmepk, duflu
[05:26] <oSoMoN> salut seb128
[05:26] <seb128> lut oSoMoN, hey callmepk
[05:26] <seb128> how are you?
[05:26] <oSoMoN> I'm good, had a good and uninterrupted night of sleep \o/
[05:26] <oSoMoN> how are you yourself?
[05:32] <seb128> I'm good, up too early to my taste though :-)
[05:32] <seb128> but it's friday, hopefully more sleep tomorrow
[05:33] <callmepk> hi seb128
[05:34] <jibel> hi all
[05:36] <oSoMoN> salut jibel
[05:40] <jibel> bonjour oSoMoN
[05:47] <seb128> lut jibel, comment ça va ?
[05:52] <jibel> seb128, ça  va bien, merci.
[06:05] <duflu> Hi jibel
[06:14] <jibel> morning duflu
[06:22] <didrocks> good morning
[06:22] <duflu> Hi didrocks
[06:24] <didrocks> hey duflu
[06:32] <seb128> lut didrocks
[06:39] <didrocks> salut seb128, ça va ?
[06:40] <seb128> didrocks, ouais, un peu fatigué, réveillé avant 7h par le petit qui a fait un cauchemard :p
[06:40] <seb128> et toi ?
[06:41] <didrocks> seb128: réveillé à 5h, mais sinon, ça va
[06:41] <seb128> tu 'gagnes' :p
[06:42] <didrocks> façon de parler
[06:53] <seb128> question for the python people on the channel
[06:53] <seb128> https://git.launchpad.net/software-properties/tree/softwareproperties/gtk/LivepatchPage.py#n38
[06:54] <seb128> why is the
[06:54] <seb128> STRING = _()...
[06:54] <seb128> then later
[06:54] <seb128> https://git.launchpad.net/software-properties/tree/softwareproperties/gtk/LivepatchPage.py#n276
[06:54] <seb128> print(STRING)
[06:54] <seb128> not working?
[06:55] <seb128> (there is an parathensis error on l42 which makes it use the wrong string, it should give the version without the substitution to gettext, but fixing that isn't enough)
[07:05] <seb128> jamesh, ^ seems like the kind of problem you might have a clue about?
[07:06]  * jamesh looks
[07:09] <jamesh> what error are you getting?
[07:10] <jamesh> I don't see any print() calls in that code
[07:17] <jibel> it looks correct, how do you  run this code?
[07:17] <marcustomlinson> good morning callmepk duflu oSoMoN seb128 jibel didrocks jamesh
[07:18] <duflu> Hi marcustomlinson
[07:18] <marcustomlinson> happy friday :)
[07:19] <jibel> Bonjour marcustomlinson
[07:20] <didrocks> hey marcustomlinson
[07:20] <jibel> seb128, oops got a crash of g-c-c when I clicked on "connect to"
[07:20] <seb128> jamesh, jibel, sorry it was maybe not clear
[07:20] <seb128> https://git.launchpad.net/software-properties/tree/softwareproperties/gtk/LivepatchPage.py#n276
[07:20] <seb128>  error_message=self.GENERIC_ERR_MSG
[07:21] <seb128> that displays in english and doesn't fetch the gettext translation
[07:21] <seb128> if I replace it by
[07:21] <seb128> error_message=_('Canonical Livepatch has experienced an internal error.'
[07:21] <seb128>         ' Please refer to {} for further information.').format(COMMON_ISSUE_URL)
[07:21] <seb128> it works
[07:21] <seb128> (which is the same string as the const)
[07:22] <jibel> g-c-c crash https://errors.ubuntu.com/bucket/?id=/usr/bin/gnome-control-center%3A11%3Acc_panel_get_title_widget%3Aactivate_panel%3Aset_active_panel_from_id%3Alaunch_panel_activated%3Ag_closure_invoke
[07:22] <seb128> it's bug #1873272
[07:23] <seb128> jibel, the gcc bug is bug #1862553 which we discussed/assigned during the team meeting this week
[07:23] <seb128> the livepatch one
[07:23] <jamesh> seb128: the code as written would try to look up "Canonical Livepatch has experienced an internal error. Please refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Livepatch#CommonIssues for further information." in the message catalogue, which doesn't match any tagged string constant
[07:24] <jamesh> so you'd get the english version
[07:24] <jamesh> moving the format() call outside of _() means you'd be looking up the string without the URL substituted
[07:24] <seb128> jamesh, see what I wrote earlier
[07:24] <seb128>  (there is an parathensis error on l42 which makes it use the wrong string, it should give the version without the substitution to gettext, but fixing that isn't enough)
[07:24] <seb128> also I fixed that in the paste I just did
[07:25] <jamesh> seb128: is there a translation in the message catalogue?
[07:25] <seb128> moving a ) before the .format
[07:25] <seb128> yes
[07:25] <seb128> as said, if I do
[07:25] <seb128>  if I replace it by
[07:25] <seb128>  error_message=_('Canonical Livepatch has experienced an internal error.'
[07:25] <seb128>          ' Please refer to {} for further information.').format(COMMON_ISSUE_URL)
[07:25] <seb128>  it works
[07:25] <seb128>  (which is the same string as the const)
[07:25] <seb128> I've the UI displayed in french in the GUI then
[07:26] <seb128> changing             self._trigger_ui_update(skip=True, error_message=self.GENERIC_ERR_MSG) I meant
[07:26] <seb128> there is something about using the const that is wrong
[07:26] <jamesh> seb128: the code as written in that branch is wrong
[07:26] <seb128> I wonder if that's because it does the query at object creation and the domain is not set or something?
[07:26] <jamesh> seb128: your change is what it should be doing
[07:27] <oSoMoN> salut didrocks, good morning marcustomlinson, hey jamesh
[07:29] <seb128> jamesh, the change works, I don't understand why having it the way it's now isn't equivalent
[07:29] <seb128> is that because it does the call to gettext too early with the variable assignement at the beginning of the class?
[07:30] <jamesh> seb128: the _() call serves two purposes: (1) it is something that the xgettext tool recognises to extract string constants from source code to create the message catalogue
[07:30] <seb128> right
[07:30] <jamesh> and (2) at runtime convert an english string to the equivalent native language string
[07:30] <seb128> right :)
[07:31] <jamesh> as written, for (1) the call recognises the string "... Please refer to {} for further information"
[07:31] <jamesh> but for (2) it is looking up the string "... Please refer to http://... for further information"
[07:31] <seb128> sorry I'm not being clear
[07:31] <jamesh> because there is a format() call within the _() invocation
[07:31] <seb128> let me try a pastebin
[07:32] <jamesh> and that doesn't match anything in the catalogue
[07:33] <didrocks> salut oSoMoN, ça va ?
[07:33] <seb128> jamesh, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/vbmFxZtYDk/
[07:34] <seb128> jamesh, the wrong parameter/string being passed to gettext I fixed and is ortogonal, it's just not enough to have the code working
[07:34] <seb128> jamesh, the pastebin is a summary of the thing that is confusing me
[07:35] <seb128> jamesh, I guess in the first case it might do the translate fetch when creating the object which might be before the gettext init/domain is set?
[07:35] <seb128> where in the second case it does it when the function is called?
[07:35] <jamesh> seb128: ohh.  This would be an ordering issue with the bindtextdomain call
[07:36] <seb128> so in the first case the fetch is not done at the call time?
[07:36] <jamesh> The class statement is executed before gettext is configured
[07:36] <seb128> right, that's what I guess
[07:36] <jamesh> so there is no message catalogue to look up
[07:37] <seb128> right
[07:38] <seb128> what would be the 'right' fix?
[07:38] <jamesh> Fixing this would either involve delaying import of the module until after gettext is set up, or not using module or class level attributes that are evaluated at module import time
[07:38] <seb128> let me try if moving the constants defintion to the init is enough
[07:38] <seb128> if not I will go for the simple fix
[07:39] <jamesh> that would be enough
[07:39] <seb128> ok, let me do that then
[07:39] <seb128> jamesh, thanks! and sorry for not being clear with the question, the {} / ) issue which added on top did make it even more confusing
[07:40] <seb128> jibel, 'connect to', where was that? you were were setting up livepatch or hit the issue from another workflow?
[07:40] <jamesh> seb128: an alternative would be to edit https://git.launchpad.net/software-properties/tree/software-properties-gtk -- move softwareproperties import to below the textdomain() call
[07:40] <jamesh> or move the textdomain() call up higher
[07:41] <seb128> right
[07:42] <seb128> that feels unclear having some code moved before the imports though
[07:42] <seb128> I will go for just moving the const to the init
[07:42] <seb128> jamesh, thanks again!
[07:42] <jamesh> seb128: Are you sure that's the only problem string though?
[07:43] <seb128> you are never sure, we didn't get other reports and there is no other gettext calls made in a class directly from what I can see
[07:44] <seb128> you would just move the gettext/textdomain() init before the import?
[07:47] <seb128> didrocks, is there a particul process for yaru-theme uploads? Trevinho asking me to sponsor his fix from https://github.com/ubuntu/yaru/commits/master , I can just do the normal 'manual' package build/dput right?
[07:48] <didrocks> seb128: just ensure that you push the tag to the upstream repo, but then yes. gbp builpackage -S + dput
[07:48] <seb128> didrocks, thx
[07:49] <didrocks> the tag is already pushed by Trevinho
[07:49] <didrocks> so just upload to ubuntu
[07:49] <seb128> didrocks, thx
[08:02] <Laney> hey
[08:03] <didrocks> morning Laney
[08:07] <marcustomlinson> hey Laney
[08:08] <seb128> hey Laney, marcustomlinson, happy friday!
[08:14] <duflu> Hi Laney
[08:15] <Laney> moin didrocks marcustomlinson seb128 duflu
[08:15] <Laney> happy final freeze friday
[08:15] <duflu> fff
[08:16] <seb128> indeed!
[08:17] <duflu> or fffff
[08:17] <Laney> f³ / f⁵
[08:22] <duflu> Alliteration for human beings
[08:24]  * Laney waits impatiently for ISOs
[08:30] <Laney> weeee my wish is granted
[08:32] <seb128> :)
[08:32] <seb128> popey, https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MCL-13512 should probably be reopened, it would be best if they moved to a non years-old-legacy Depends still
[09:34] <Laney> marcustomlinson: looks like you got some replies on the atk bug!
[09:36] <marcustomlinson> yeah good stuff
[09:55] <xnox> I rebooted
[09:55] <xnox> My desktop locks up.
[09:56] <xnox> I see black screen, mouse pointer, cannot get to VT or anything.
[09:58] <duflu> xnox, nvidia? fractional scaling?
[09:58] <duflu> And I was about to EOW :/
[09:58] <xnox> Should be non-nvidia but I do have it. And have highdpi infinity screen.
[09:59] <xnox> I am in emergency target now, let me check what's up
[10:00] <duflu> infinity sounds very high
[10:00] <xnox> Meh, it's 2015 infinity
[10:01] <xnox> Old kernel booted fine
[10:01]  * duflu nods
[10:02] <xnox> Anyway, let me apply all updates, if still broken something is really and.
[10:02] <xnox> *bad
[10:03] <duflu> Covering my eyes now
[11:02] <popey> seb128 looks like debian are on it
[11:36] <Laney> ok that was disturbing
[11:37] <Laney> in the middle of a dist-upgrade and everything died
[11:37] <Laney> a whole load of
[11:37] <Laney> Apr 17 12:32:39 raleigh systemd[1]: wpa_supplicant.service: Unexpected error response from GetNameOwner(): Connection terminated
[11:37] <Laney> Apr 17 12:32:39 raleigh systemd[1]: udisks2.service: Unexpected error response from GetNameOwner(): Connection terminated
[11:37] <Laney> from various things
[11:37] <Laney> which sounds like the system bus went away?
[11:59] <seb128> Laney, bug #1871538
[11:59] <seb128> disturbing bug, also unsure how to debug it :/
[12:00] <seb128> popey, right, I asked because I was suprised to see a comment on the Debian BTS that the upstream request to use a non transitional package had been closed
[12:00] <seb128> good they followed up now though
[12:00] <Laney> sounds right
[12:00] <Laney> any idea what happened?
[12:00] <seb128> no :-(
[12:00] <Laney> I did some dbus reloads and systemd re-execs in a loop, didn't trigger it
[12:01] <seb128> I didn't see an obvious clue in the journal
[12:01] <Laney> no
[12:01] <Laney> it looks like they restarted ok
[12:07] <Laney> ah
[12:07] <Laney> maybe
[12:08] <Laney> yeah
[12:08] <Laney> so if you reload the dbus configuration and the systemd one at the same time, this happens
[12:21] <Laney> meh that only worked once
[12:22] <Laney> oho, ok, put them both in a loop and then you'll probably get it
[12:23] <seb128> systemd bug?
[12:23] <Laney> dunno
[12:24] <Laney> that seems likely, if it's losing the connection to the system bus when it shouldn't
[12:29] <Laney> I should stop doing this on my host
[12:51] <marcustomlinson> seb128: do you remember why we upgraded atk to 2.35? Did something else require it?
[12:52] <marcustomlinson> kenvandine and I are wondering if we could temporarily downgrade to 2.34 again for focal until that segfault issue is resolved
[12:52] <seb128> marcustomlinson, we follow GNOME every cycle
[12:52] <seb128> it's a GNOME component
[12:53] <seb128> version downgrades suck, can't you just revert the one problematic commit?
[12:53] <kenvandine> We worry that any patch to fix this issue wouldn't have enough time for testing
[12:53] <seb128> I would still revert the commit
[12:53] <seb128> rather than play weird 3.35.is.3.34 update
[12:53] <kenvandine> I hate those versions
[12:53] <seb128> since it's a well identified commit
[12:54] <marcustomlinson> it is?
[12:54] <marcustomlinson> I mean it may well be, I'll look
[12:54] <kenvandine> I didn't think it was
[12:56] <seb128> 'Of particular interest is the introduction of the atk_socket_component_real_get_extents() function, and the NEWS entry: "Make AtkSocket get_extents return parent extents by default (MR!23)"."
[12:56] <seb128> is a misleading comment then
[12:56] <seb128> it sounded like !23 was the obvious candidate
[12:56] <marcustomlinson> sorry, though I think you are right
[12:56] <marcustomlinson> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/atk/-/commit/71ecedd9f1d12ad74f660a7b2827e5574ca7e510
[12:56] <Laney> agreed
[12:57] <seb128> I would start by trying to revert that one
[12:57] <Laney> I'm going to add that as a release blocker on our cool new wiki post
[12:58] <marcustomlinson> this may take a while I've not touched this project before
[12:58] <marcustomlinson> I mean the packaging
[12:59] <marcustomlinson> what branch do I work on? focal-proposed?
[12:59] <seb128> marcustomlinson, apt-get source atk1.0
[12:59] <seb128> there is no ubuntu branch
[13:00] <seb128> also I would ask on the upstream bug if they think it's safe to revert
[13:00] <Laney> I'd make a branch if it were me
[13:00] <seb128> I've no real knowledge of the a11y stack, I'm not sure the feature/version you want to revert isn't providing something that at-spi or other component might use
[13:01] <seb128> (I would probably personnally feel better try to go the fix way and try the patch draft upstream provided)
[13:01] <seb128> at least start by getting feedback on that, if it works we might have a proper fix tested by monday
[13:02] <seb128> marcustomlinson, if you want to follow Laney's lead, the vcs in Debian is https://salsa.debian.org/gnome-team/atk
[13:03] <seb128> unsure if you have an account on salsa yet
[13:03] <seb128> might be a good opportunity to get one otherwise :)
[13:04] <Laney> wait a second, I'll just make the branch, that'll be easier
[13:04] <seb128> thx
[13:09] <KGB-0> atk ubuntu/master 75979e0 Sebastien Bacher debian/ (5 files in 2 dirs) * Import Debian changes 2.35.1-1ubuntu1 * https://deb.li/LW7I
[13:09] <KGB-0> atk ubuntu/master 472cb96 Iain Lane debian/ control control.in gbp.conf * control, gbp.conf: Update for ubuntu/master branch * https://deb.li/3qqVA
[13:10] <Laney> there
[13:11] <seb128> bah, why did we fail to update/merge 2.36?
[13:11] <seb128> arg, version was still have 2.34 as the stable serie so it's in the yellow section :(
[13:12] <Laney> annoying
[13:12] <Laney> can be SRUed though
[13:12] <marcustomlinson> Samuel says reverting that commit will be fine
[13:12] <seb128> great
[13:12] <marcustomlinson> this one: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/atk/-/commit/71ecedd9f1d12ad74f660a7b2827e5574ca7e510
[13:12] <Laney> I suggest doing that and then testing the proposed patch, giving feedback on that and hopefully later we can replace the revert with a fix
[13:13] <marcustomlinson> If I confirm it to work could I just ask you Laney to do the revert and publish etc
[13:13] <marcustomlinson> I'm sorry, sounds awfully lazy but it will certainly take much longer for me
[13:14] <marcustomlinson> I'll test this now
[13:14] <jibel> seb128, bug 1873454 is surely something to fix for the release. It's a g-c-c crash when a user tries to register his U1 account in software-properties to use livepatch.
[13:15] <marcustomlinson> that patch is not a patch for this issue
[13:15] <marcustomlinson> it's a "it's sorta kinda like this"
[13:16] <Laney> yeah sure
[13:16] <Laney> lunch now
[13:26] <marcustomlinson> seb128: I have an account on salsa but it's appended with "-guest"
[13:26] <marcustomlinson> don't remember why
[13:30] <marcustomlinson> oh right coz I'm not a Debian Developer
[13:35] <seb128> jibel, right, we said that during the weekly meeting
[13:35] <seb128> marcustomlinson, correct :)
[13:37] <seb128> jibel, did you see my comment/question this morning?
[13:38] <seb128> jibel, https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2020/04/17/%23ubuntu-desktop.html#t07:22
[13:39] <jibel> seb128, no, I missed it sorry
[13:39] <seb128> np
[13:39] <seb128> but your description seems to confirm it's a dup
[13:40] <seb128> also Robert proposed https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/merge_requests/746 earlier today but he didn''t make it clear if that was a fix for this issue, I'm going to test that next
[13:41] <jibel> yes, it's the same case than comment 8. I duplicated the report created from errors.u.c
[13:42] <seb128> thx
[13:56] <marcustomlinson> Laney: reverting that commit resolves the crash without any regression as far as I can see - took the screenreader for a spin on a couple other apps too.
[13:56] <marcustomlinson> The commit is: 4b5ed8630c5ae9ef37884c4199da8463b7e5a127
[14:01] <marcustomlinson> Laney: and for the changelog, the bug is (LP: #1870508)
[14:01] <marcustomlinson> that's the only changes needed
[14:13] <KGB-1> mutter debian/master Marco Trevisan * [open] merge request !60: d/p: Fallback to closed laptop lid configuration if no other available * https://deb.li/Nf8d
[14:15] <marcustomlinson> seb128: thanks for pointing out my own reference to the problematic commit (facepalm). I blame lockdown
[14:15] <seb128> marcustomlinson, no problem, glad that you figured it out, nice to hit friday afternoon with problems solved :)
[14:15] <marcustomlinson> digging out what the heck was happening fried my brain
[14:16] <KGB-1> mutter debian/master Marco Trevisan * [update] merge request !60: d/p: Fallback to closed laptop lid configuration if no other available * https://deb.li/Nf8d
[14:20] <KGB-1> mutter Marco Trevisan 155899 * commented commit 6661980 * https://deb.li/ig0tV
[14:30] <KGB-1> atk ubuntu/master 3138b37 Iain Lane debian/patches/ atk_requires_glib series Revert-atksocket-make-get_extents-return-parent-extents-b.patch * Revert "atksocket: make get_extents return parent extents by default" * https://deb.li/3zfce
[14:30] <KGB-1> atk ubuntu/master 9466ac0 Iain Lane debian/changelog * Update changelog * https://deb.li/33HhI
[14:30] <KGB-1> atk ubuntu/master 558773e Iain Lane debian/changelog * Finalise changelog * https://deb.li/iO9yA
[14:38] <marcustomlinson> thanks Laney
[14:40] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: Can we talk about https://gitlab.gnome.org/Community/Ubuntu/gtk-common-themes/-/issues/13 ? It's directly affecting Ubuntu Studio at this point.
[14:41] <Laney> np marcustomlinson
[14:41] <Laney> would appreciate it if you could check out any patches that get proposed
[14:41] <marcustomlinson> sure
[14:41] <KGB-2> atk signed tags 1976303 Iain Lane ubuntu/2.35.1-1ubuntu2 * atk1.0 Debian release 2.35.1-1ubuntu2 * https://deb.li/M0Ig
[14:42] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer:  we really wanted to hold off on adding more themes because the auto theme installation work is coming real soon
[14:42] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: Unfortunately, because of the lack of that theme, people are installing snap-store and it's unusable.
[14:43] <kenvandine> i see
[14:43] <Eickmeyer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/snap-store/+bug/1867417
[14:43] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: i'd be interested in seeing how much bigger that would make the snap
[14:44] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: any chance you could prepare a PR adding it?  It should be trivial to follow one of the other examples
[14:44] <Eickmeyer> Well, it's the default theme we've been carrying in Ubuntu Studio for a year now.
[14:44] <Eickmeyer> I could look into it, but I honestly lack the know-how.
[14:44] <kenvandine> understood
[14:45] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: can you provide a link to the git source for the theme?
[14:46] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: https://github.com/nana-4/materia-theme
[14:47] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: i can probably take a stab at it tonight
[14:47] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: I'd appreciate it. :)
[15:17] <hellsworth> morning folks
[15:21] <seb128> hey hellsworth, how are you? happy friday!
[15:22] <hellsworth> i am ok.. tired from a baby up for a few hours again teething but coffee is slowly waking me up :)
[15:22] <hellsworth> happy friday indeed
[15:22] <marcustomlinson> hey hellsworth
[15:23] <hellsworth> hey marcustomlinson how's it going?
[15:23] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: meh. also tired :P
[15:23] <hellsworth> most importantly.. how's Isla :)
[15:25] <marcustomlinson> she's doing great :) her sleep is starting to stretch at night which is helping a bit
[15:25] <hellsworth> oh horray for that!
[15:26] <marcustomlinson> how's your little one doing?
[15:27] <hellsworth> she has teeth coming in.. so last night she was up from 1:30-5. it was rough. wants to be held for hours. and then she finally went to sleep and woke up at the usual 7:30
[15:27] <hellsworth> i'll be glad when all the teeth are in
[15:27] <hellsworth> and when daycare is open again
[15:27] <hellsworth> i dream of daycare..
[15:27] <marcustomlinson> ok yeah...
[15:28] <marcustomlinson> /s/ok/oh
[15:31] <didrocks> hey hellsworth :)
[15:32] <hellsworth> hi there didrocks
[15:32] <didrocks> good luck with the teeth
[15:32] <hellsworth> i'll take all the luck i can get :)
[15:32] <didrocks> heh
[15:32] <didrocks> spoiler alert: it takes time though :p
[15:32] <hellsworth> i know.. i asked the pediatrician when it will stop and she looked at me and kind of laughed and said not for a long time
[15:33] <didrocks> roh :)
[16:12] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: can you test a channel of gtk-common-themes for me?
[16:13] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: Sure. What channel?
[16:13] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: snap refresh --channel-=latest/stable/materia gtk-common-themes
[16:13] <Eickmeyer> I'll get on it. :)
[16:13] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: snap refresh --channel=latest/stable/materia gtk-common-themes
[16:13] <kenvandine> typo the first time :)
[16:13] <Eickmeyer> Heh
[16:14] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: i added all the variants for both gtk3 and gtk2
[16:15] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: if snap-store has a background process running you'll need to kill it first
[16:15] <kenvandine> killall snap-store
[16:16] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: Looks good!
[16:16] <kenvandine> great
[16:18] <GunnarHj> igordhossegor: I see that someone arranged with a redirect for bitlocker and rst after all. Do you know how that happened? I would like to know, because I fear that the bzr branch we use for maintaining help.ubuntu.com is no longer in sync with what's actually on the web server.
[16:18] <igordhossegor> GunnarHJ i asked IS yesterday
[16:18] <igordhossegor> for the redirect before we talked
[16:19] <igordhossegor> i can ask them to remove the server redirect and then you can do the one you want
[16:21] <igordhossegor> GunnarHj i asked IS to remove the redirects
[16:21] <igordhossegor> after that it should work fine
[16:21] <igordhossegor> (for how you are going to do it - with html pages and the redirects you can make)
[16:22] <GunnarHj> igordhossegor: Ok.. I don't have any own preferences. But I pushed the files to the branch yesterday, and it ought to work without redirects. My only concern atm is that some IS guy bypassed the branch.
[16:24] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: I have confirmation from others that it fixes the transparency issue.
[16:25] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: ok, i'll have that in the candidate channel today and probably stable by monday
[16:25] <Eickmeyer> Perfect. Thanks! :)
[16:45] <Laney> :( adding gamemode after final freeze
[16:53] <seb128> indeed :-/
[17:17] <marcustomlinson> good night all, have a great we
[17:26] <oSoMoN> have a good one marcustomlinson
[18:31] <chudak> Happy Friday all !
[18:31] <chudak> Trying again -  on 20.04 gnome desktop - how to show top bar on all desktops with multi monitors ?  Thanks !
[19:10] <kenvandine> Eickmeyer: it's in candidate now
[19:28] <Eickmeyer> kenvandine: Thanks!
[20:13] <oSoMoN> have a good week-end everyone!
[20:14] <hellsworth> you too!


[19:47] <torg> what does it take to make an installed snappy application service to start on boot? i have ubuntu snappy running on a raspberry pi 2


[16:36] <ramana_> doko_: glad to hear the oo.o problem got fixed.
[16:37] <doko_> ramana_: yes, thanks for the help! I'll follow-up with email.
[16:39] <ramana_> doko_: anytime - Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.
[19:46] <ramana> doko_: ping
[22:59] <doko_> ramana: pong
[23:00] <ramana> doko: I tried the binutils 2.19.92-rc2 snapshot on an arm-linux board that I've got access to running Debian Lenny and don't see the test failures that you see. However the number of tests I run are significantly lower than yours.
[23:02] <ramana> Ofcourse the 2.19.92-rc2 snapshot includes Jakub's gas patch .
[23:02] <doko_> yes, the snapshot includes the patch as well.
[23:03] <doko_> for historical reasons the binutils in ubuntu includes some of the hj lu patches; checked that disabling these doesn't help
[23:03] <ramana> ok
[23:05] <ramana> as well as trying gcc-4.3 doesn't help .
[23:06] <ramana> ?
[23:06] <doko_> right, and building with -fno-stack-protector -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE neither
[23:06] <doko_> currently looking at our buildlogs at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/binutils/+publishinghistory when the failures do appear
[23:08] <doko_> they are in <IP_ADDRESS>90620, not in <IP_ADDRESS>90423
[23:10] <doko_> in <IP_ADDRESS>90515
[23:12] <ramana> I'm still new to launchpad.
[23:12] <ramana> so I clicked a link and got here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/binutils/<IP_ADDRESS>90515-0ubuntu1/+build/1030198 - not sure where you are seeing the test logs
[23:13] <doko_> there is link called buildlog, search for the second occurrance of test-summary
[23:14] <doko_> they are in 20090508
[23:17] <doko_> ramana: between 20090423 and 20090508
[23:19] <ramana> ok . atleast we know the range now to look at.
[23:28] <ramana> Is this failure only armel specific or do you see it on other arch's as well ?
[23:30] <ramana> I thought your report on binutils@ suggested that you were seeing similar failures on mips ?
[23:32] <doko_> yes, I see these on mips as well
[23:32] <doko_> and mipsel
[23:34] <doko_> but mips fails in 2.19.1 as well
[23:35] <doko_> and 2.18.1
[23:35] <ramana> hmmm
[23:37] <doko_> now running a 20090430 build
[23:37] <ramana> ok
[23:40] <ramana> well do any more hj lu patches need to be backported in . I see there is a http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/devel/binutils/binutils-<IP_ADDRESS>.1.tar.bz2
[23:40] <ramana> unless you've seen this already .
[23:48] <doko_> no, didn't look yet, but as we don't see this in the debian build, I doubt we find the solution there.
[23:48] <doko_> debian has one more difference: built with -march=armv4 by default


[01:05] <qwebirc33122> So this is my first install of Mythbuntu (12.04) Should I try to use the update manager to update the .25 bug fixes and how.  I enabled it using the control center and see the additional packages in the update manager but when trying to preform the update it seems to hang at "applying changes"  I've only selected the additional mythbuntu packages not the full list of 204 updates
[01:05] <tgm4883> superm1, ^^ this seems like something we need to fix. It's likely that SAMBA issue
[01:06] <tgm4883> qwebirc33122, open a terminal and do "apt-get upgrade"
[01:06] <tgm4883> it's likely asking you about a samba conf file
[01:07] <qwebirc33122> Should I run the apt-get upgrade now even though it seems to be hanging? or try to force restart run the command and update again?
[01:12] <qwebirc33122> I went ahead and rebooted, will this then allow the upgrade to complete or should I take a different approach?
[01:51] <qwebirc33122> Looks like it worked, it did stop at a prompt asking about a samba configuration file if that helps
[03:59] <qwebirc16586> Is there a guide to get a serial port ir reciever working?  I don't see it in the options in the control center
[19:34] <bobweaver> Hello there I was wondering if I could get some help setting up mythtv I have got a capture card and downloaded the firmware and installed it and the card is now being read by myth in the backend. I tried to set up a channel but it does not work. I keep on getting errors over and over that say Could not connect to the master backend server Is it running ?  Is the IPaddress set for i in mythtv-setup. thanks for your time
[19:35] <tgm4883> bobweaver, how did you install mythtv?
[19:35] <bobweaver> everything is set to <IP_ADDRESS> should I cahnge to localhost ? or the ip address of the machine itsself ?
[19:36] <bobweaver> hey tgm4883
[19:36] <bobweaver> sudo apt-get isntall mythtv
[19:36] <tgm4883> <IP_ADDRESS> should work.
[19:36] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  can I pm you ?
[19:36] <tgm4883> that will install it, I'm not sure what it will do for configuration though
[19:36] <tgm4883> ok
[19:36] <bobweaver> thanks
[23:20] <lucidium> I'm having some weird graphical issues using the mythbuntu livecd on my computer with the video card connected to a television. Everything is scrolling and flashing incessantly, even when switching out of X into a virtual console. This didn't happen when I loaded up a knoppix or gparted livecd, so anyone know what gives?
[23:24] <superm1> it's possible that the newer version of X in precise isn't handling as gracefully as the older ones on those older distro CD's
[23:25] <superm1> try booting with nomodeset (it's in the boot menu on the CD)
[23:25] <lucidium> superm1, will do
[23:30] <lucidium> superm1, much better, thank you. Will I need to throw in those options into my grub.conf after installation?
[23:30] <superm1> lucidium: ah good.  well that depends, are you using a closed source driver after install?
[23:30] <superm1> nvidia or fglrx drivers will probably not hit this same issue you're hitting
[23:32] <lucidium> yeah, I was intending on using the nvidia binary blobs, so that's good.
[23:42] <superm1> the installer should offer you to install directly, so you should be fine on first boot then hopefully
[23:43] <superm1> it would probably be worthwhile to file a bug if you can that you can't boot X, it's certainly a nouveau bug then
[23:44] <superm1> you can file it using 'ubuntu-bug xserver-xorg-video-nouveau' when you finish the install while you're booted in with nomodeset hopefully


[19:05] <Pici> bootlog
[19:09] <dax> already poked at it, sorry, forgot to mention
[19:10] <dax> meanwhile, lotuspsychje has poked #ubuntu+1 a couple of times about !info, you might wanna check in there 'cause idk how that all works
[19:10] <Pici> oh, I'll poke it.
[19:18] <Pici> dunno what the current naming convention is for the linux image though, but focal is setup in ubottu and set for the default release in +1
[19:31] <dax> Pici: i'm guessing it's because linux-image-generic isn't built for i386 any more (according to https://packages.ubuntu.com/eoan/linux-image-generic , no idea if that's actually true)
[19:32] <dax> whereas e.g. bash is, and the bash package size mentioned in the !info output in +1 matches the i386 version of bash on packages.u.c, so i'm guessing i'm right about it checking i386
[19:32] <dax> if architecture's configurable, you may want to flip it over to amd64
[19:32] <Pici> hmmm
[20:12] <Pici> !info linux-image-generic eoan
[20:12] <dax> \o/
[20:12] <Pici> I had to change the plugin itself
[20:13] <Pici> i386 was hardcoded


[04:03] <CP2> i spitz hot fyah!!!!
[05:04] <tanders12> could anyone help me with building JACK from source?
[05:04] <ailo> tanders12: just for fun?
[05:05] <tanders12> not quite
[05:05] <tanders12> apparently ffado-mixer doesn't work with the audiofire 4 and the ubuntu ffado packages
[05:06] <tanders12> but the guy i bought it from says the svn should work
[05:06] <tanders12> ffado seems to build ok but jack isn't building
[05:06] <ailo> Ok, didn't know jack had anything to do with that
[05:06] <holstein> w0w
[05:06] <holstein> thats quite a project i think
[05:06] <holstein> i havent had to do that yet
[05:06] <holstein> JACK from source
[05:07] <holstein> hmmm
[05:07] <ailo> I did it a couple of times.
[05:07] <holstein> AH
[05:07] <holstein> cool ;)
[05:07] <holstein> :) *
[05:07] <ailo> Had some trouble with qjackctl afterwards
[05:07] <tanders12> hm
[05:07] <tanders12> hm maybe now that i build ffado from source the repo jack will work ok
[05:08] <holstein> thats probably likely
[05:08] <ailo> start with: sudo apt-get build-dep jack
[05:09] <tanders12> nvm that wont work because now that i installed libffado manually synaptic doesn't know it's installed, so when i go to install jack it wants to install libffado2 also :/
[05:09] <ailo> right
[05:09] <ailo> Or, are you sure?
[05:10] <ailo> This will only install dependencies in order to build jack
[05:10] <holstein> wonder if this ffado would get it
[05:10] <holstein> https://launchpad.net/~autostatic/+archive/ffado
[05:10] <ailo> It's not the same as apt-get install jack
[05:10] <holstein> well, you've already got it
[05:11] <holstein> OH, nah
[05:11] <tanders12> hm i don't think that's the problem
[05:11] <holstein> autostatics PPA is older than what you need
[05:12] <tanders12> well id rather learn how to build from source anyways
[05:12] <ailo> tanders12: Try the command in the terminal to see what it wants to install: sudo apt-get build-dep jack. If it tries to install ffado, at least you'll see what you need to install
[05:12] <tanders12> http://paste.ubuntu.com/549441/
[05:12] <ailo> Meaning, you can interrupt and install stuff manually
[05:13] <tanders12> that's what it gives me when i try to run ./autogen.sh
[05:15] <ailo> tanders12: I think I did: ./waf configure   ./waf build  sudo ./waf install
[05:15] <tanders12> ok now it's doing something...
[05:16] <tanders12> man this is a joke lol
[05:16] <tanders12> gonna take me a while to figure it all out
[05:17] <ailo> tanders12: I would begin with installing dependencies, did you do that already?
[05:17] <tanders12> everywhere i look seems to list different deps
[05:18] <tanders12> its sort of ridiculous
[05:19] <ailo> tanders12: so why don't you try 'sudo apt-get build-dep jack' ?
[05:19] <tanders12> i did
[05:19] <tanders12> that's what made it build
[05:19] <ailo> Building now?
[05:20] <tanders12> http://paste.ubuntu.com/549442/
[05:20] <tanders12> it builds but apparently it didn't build with anything useful
[05:21] <ailo> Seems like you are missing all kinds of dependencies.
[05:21] <ailo> Optional ones
[05:23] <tanders12> hm ok it's installed but i have no idea how to test it
[05:23] <ailo> Well, without ffado and alsa, all you can do is try with oss on a pci or built-in card
[05:24] <ailo> I'd uninstall and rebuild with alsa and ffado support, at least
[05:24] <tanders12> how to uninstall?
[05:25] <ailo> Try sudo ./waf uninstall. Maybe works
[05:25] <tanders12> what isn waf? never heard of that
[05:27] <ailo> It's the build system they use instead of make. Don't know much
[05:27] <ailo> Did it work?
[05:29] <tanders12> hang on
[05:29] <tanders12> im starting over
[05:29] <tanders12> removing both code directories, rechecking out, and rebuilding
[05:29] <tanders12> running apt-get build-dep libffado2 first this time
[05:30] <ailo> Ok, but when you come to building jack, just do ./waf configure to begin with. See what it says. Than do ./waf --help to see what else you can do
[05:30] <ailo> You'll propably have to enable alsa and ffado manually
[05:31] <ailo> jack is installed in /usr/local by default, so you'll need to change this
[05:33] <tanders12> yeah i changed that
[05:33] <tanders12> to /usr
[05:34] <tanders12> so it would overwrite the ubuntu installs
[05:34] <ailo> You should remove all installs first
[05:34] <tanders12> i did
[05:34] <tanders12> i think....
[05:35] <ailo> When it comes to ffado, I don't have much of a clue how to build it, or what you need.
[05:35] <tanders12> well their docs are better than jacks
[05:35] <ailo> If you don't get it right, you might ask for advice on #jack
[05:36] <tanders12> i was wondering if they had a channel
[05:40] <ailo> tanders12: I'm sure you are doing this all for fun, but if you really need a working system I would recommend Karmic or Lucid
[05:40] <tanders12> :)
[05:40] <tanders12> i don't really need it yet
[05:40] <tanders12> mostly for fun/knowledge
[05:41] <ailo> Well, let us know if works for you.
[05:42] <tanders12> do you know if building jack from svn installs jackd1 or jackd2?
[05:43] <ailo> What's the version number?
[05:43] <tanders12> how do i check
[05:44] <ailo> If the source folder name is something like jack-1.9.6 it's jack2
[05:45] <ailo> It it's something like 0.118, it's jack1
[05:46] <tanders12> hm ok
[05:46] <tanders12> which do you recommend?
[05:46] <ailo> I've had no problems with any of them. They have some differences in features. Don't know all the details
[05:47] <ailo> I assume jack2 is the future
[05:48] <ailo> Another name for jack2 is jackdmp
[05:48] <ailo> This should be jack2 svn, then svn co http://subversion.jackaudio.org/jack/jack2/trunk/jackmp
[05:50] <tanders12> hm ok
[05:50] <tanders12> thanks
[05:50] <tanders12> most documentation seems to be centered around jackd1
[05:53] <tanders12> got it to build with fw support
[05:54] <ailo> nice
[05:58] <tanders12> /usr/bin/jackd: symbol lookup error: /usr/bin/jackd: undefined symbol: clock_source
[06:00] <ailo> Sure you installed it in /usr/bin and not /usr/local/bin?
[06:01] <ailo> Or you probably have some old jack files left
[06:03] <ailo> tanders12: I would recommend cleaning up your system really well before attempting another build. And, good luck. I'm sure the guys at jack will know better how to help you.
[06:06] <tanders12> thanks man


[03:27] <belkinsa> http://askubuntu.com/questions/400153/package-other-than-calibre-for-converting-an-rss-feeds-entries-to-an-ebook if anyone knows the answer
[03:27] <jenni> [ Package other than calibre for converting an RSS feed's entries to an ebook - Ask Ubuntu ] - https://j.mp/1gBucJt
[19:43] <snafu006> hello
[19:43] <Unit193> Howdy.
[19:43] <belkinsa> Hello
[23:05] <jrgifford> belkinsa: yes, and no
[23:05] <jrgifford> i've been looking
[23:05] <jrgifford> haven't found anything


[04:18] <mup> Bug #1588857 changed: [2.0b5] sudo: no tty present and no askpass program specified <MAAS:Expired> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588857>
[04:21] <mup> Bug #1588857 opened: [2.0b5] sudo: no tty present and no askpass program specified <MAAS:Expired> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588857>
[04:24] <mup> Bug #1588857 changed: [2.0b5] sudo: no tty present and no askpass program specified <MAAS:Expired> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588857>


[10:59] <humphreybc> hi all
[10:59] <humphreybc> have we got a better turnout tonight?
[10:59] <fenre> yup
[10:59] <humphreybc> cool - who's here?
[11:00]  * godbyk waves
[11:00]  * ubuntujenkins says hello
[11:00] <mparmpathomas> maybe you should send a remind in the mailing list
[11:02] <humphreybc> hmm where are the key people like jmburgess, dutchie, kevingardiner, tacantara, jaminday etc?
[11:03] <humphreybc> darn it we aren't having much luck!
[11:03] <humphreybc> we'll wait ten minutes and see who else shows up
[11:04] <humphreybc> Okay so while we're waiting check out the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
[11:06] <humphreybc> dutchie you're here, right?
[11:06] <dutchie> o/
[11:06] <humphreybc> sweet
[11:06] <dutchie> now may not be the best time to start the Champions' League on FIFA 99 though
[11:06] <humphreybc> heh
[11:06] <humphreybc> well
[11:06] <humphreybc> you watch the soccer, i'll ping you if there's anything important happening
[11:07] <humphreybc> I know how you UK folks like your soccer
[11:07] <humphreybc> I guess I'm taking notes for this meeting
[11:07] <dutchie> I'm playing the football on the ps1
[11:07] <humphreybc> OH
[11:08] <humphreybc> hahaha
[11:08] <humphreybc> man I remember Fifa 2000 on the computer
[11:08] <humphreybc> good times
[11:08] <humphreybc> anyway,
[11:08] <humphreybc> #startmeeting
[11:08] <MootBot> Meeting started at 05:08. The chair is humphreybc.
[11:08] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[11:08] <fenre> haha, "ps1" :P Good times :)
[11:08] <humphreybc> okay so agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
[11:08] <humphreybc> first item on the list is "Roll Call" - I guess we've already done that :)
[11:09] <humphreybc> next, welcome to new members... those that are here. fenre, ubuntujenkins - you guys are new, no?
[11:09] <ubuntujenkins> indeed
[11:09] <humphreybc> cool so what are you interested in doing?
[11:09] <fenre> as for now, I'm on the norwegian translation team..
[11:09] <humphreybc> awesome
[11:09] <humphreybc> it'll be good to have a translator in here for once
[11:10] <humphreybc> normally we never hear from them :P
[11:10] <ubuntujenkins> well I don't mind helping with writing stuff for chapter three I was going to e-mail the person listed on the blue print soon
[11:10] <fenre> Gotta start somewhere
[11:10] <mparmpathomas> hey, i am new too, from the greek translators
[11:10] <humphreybc> oh hi there, awesome, two translators! neat :)
[11:11] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: Ilya is on Chapter 3, I'm sure he won't mind you helping out. I'm not sure where he is at the moment.
[11:11] <humphreybc> okay well we probably shouldn't stuff about too much - "Changes since last meeting" is next on the list.
[11:11] <humphreybc> so as you might have heard, we've got a new way of editing things
[11:11] <humphreybc> Jamin Day is the head of the editing team. We assign the author to each chapter blueprint, and one editor as the "approver"
[11:11] <humphreybc> the idea is that the author and the editor work closely together
[11:12] <humphreybc> as a team
[11:12] <humphreybc> the editor acts as a sort of "co-ordinator" of the chapter, and the "middle man" if you like between the authors and the project leads
[11:12] <humphreybc> So everyone okay on that?
[11:13] <doctormo> Howdy
[11:13] <ubuntujenkins> sounds good to me
[11:13] <humphreybc> hey Martin
[11:14] <humphreybc> okay neat. Pressing on - new ToC - well most of you won't be affected by that as you're all new to the project. The ToC is on the wiki, and the chapter blueprints are all sorted out now.
[11:14] <humphreybc> LaTeX stuff - well not a lot happening there, godbyk do you want to briefly explain what you've done regarding the main.tex file?
[11:14] <godbyk> humphreybc: Sure.
[11:14] <brunobernardino> hi there
[11:15] <humphreybc> hi brunobernardino, we've just started the meeting :)
[11:15] <godbyk> Originally all of the formatting code was included in the preamble of the main.tex file
[11:15] <humphreybc> here's the agenda for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
[11:15] <brunobernardino> nice :)
[11:15] <godbyk> .I've moved that to our own document class file (ubuntu-manual.cls).
[11:15] <godbyk> Think of it like separating the css into its own file instead of inlining it in an html file.
[11:15] <ring> sorry for the late
[11:15] <humphreybc> no problem ring, meeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
[11:15] <ring> my net was down
[11:15] <humphreybc> we just started :)
[11:16] <humphreybc> Okay so godbyk has cleaned up our template a bit and future-proofed our manual :)
[11:16] <humphreybc> okay next, "Style and Content of Margin Notes"
[11:16] <humphreybc> hi thorwil
[11:16] <humphreybc> meeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
[11:16] <thorwil> hi!
[11:16] <humphreybc> so this is where we get into the nitty gritty
[11:16] <humphreybc> we need to decide on a style for the margin notes
[11:17] <humphreybc> for those who don't know, they're the ones that are currently green
[11:17] <godbyk> There appear to currently be three kinds/uses of callouts:
[11:17] <humphreybc> So, ideas? I'll go first: I think the margin notes should probably not be coloured at all, or have a border. I think they should be in a different font and size, but not stick out too much so they detract from the main text.
[11:17] <brunobernardino> what do you mean with style?
[11:17] <godbyk> 1. cross-references in margin notes.
[11:17] <brunobernardino> oh ok
[11:17] <godbyk> 2. a box (website) pointing to a website
[11:17] <godbyk> 3. a box (Definition) containing a definition
[11:17] <brunobernardino> I was thinking you could mean style as in style of writing
[11:17] <godbyk> 4. a box (Note) containing a definition.
[11:18] <humphreybc> nope style as in appearance
[11:18] <humphreybc> hmm
[11:18] <humphreybc> do we need all four types?
[11:18] <brunobernardino> so black, with a top border to separate from the content. font should be the same, but the size obviously smaller
[11:18] <ubuntujenkins> may be give them a pale cream colour and curve the conners or a red out line?
[11:19] <thorwil> humphreybc: no box, smaller font, first line aligned with baseline of main text but rest not is rather typical for margin notes
[11:19] <godbyk> lol.. wow.
[11:19] <humphreybc> heh
[11:19] <humphreybc> lovely
[11:19] <humphreybc> Um we sort of need mockups of these really
[11:19] <godbyk> Perhaps before we discuss the particular formatting, we should get an idea of what the boxes will contain.
[11:19] <thorwil> using a box costs space for padding
[11:19] <humphreybc> sure
[11:19] <godbyk> That will help us figure out what kind of formatting to use.
[11:19] <humphreybc> that's a good idea godbyk
[11:19] <brunobernardino> I agree with godbyk.
[11:19] <humphreybc> okay so margin notes
[11:19] <godbyk> Do the boxes contain material that the reader *should* read, or that they can *optionally* read?
[11:19] <humphreybc> margin notes contain....
[11:20] <godbyk> So far, the margin notes have only been used to note cross-references.
[11:20] <humphreybc> well some of the boxes will be short definitions that are expanded on in the glossary
[11:20] <humphreybc> so they will be "optionally" read
[11:20] <godbyk> For example: "See chapter X for more information on Y."
[11:20] <humphreybc> yea
[11:20] <ring> go with thorwil
[11:20] <humphreybc> well I guess they're optional
[11:21] <humphreybc> should we keep the margin notes exclusively for cross references?
[11:21] <ring> godbyk +1
[11:21] <ring> System:    Host ring-desktop Kernel 2.6.31-14-generic i686 (32 bit) Distro Linux Mint 8 Helena - Main Edition
[11:22] <ring> yes
[11:22] <humphreybc> anyone?
[11:22] <ubuntujenkins> yes
[11:22] <thorwil> notes are ok, too
[11:22] <brunobernardino> yes, notes too
[11:22] <humphreybc> [VOTE] Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references?
[11:22] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references?.
[11:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[11:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[11:22] <humphreybc> =1
[11:22] <humphreybc> oops
[11:22] <humphreybc> +1
[11:22] <MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[11:22] <humphreybc> :P
[11:22] <dutchie> margin notes, yes
[11:22] <dutchie> +1
[11:22] <brunobernardino> because it doesn't make sense for the user to read something on a page and have to go to another to read a note
[11:22] <MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[11:22] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[11:22] <MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[11:22] <thorwil> but margin notes should be optional-to-read, nothing where you call the readers attention with fancy styling
[11:23] <waltmenz> +1
[11:23] <MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[11:23] <brunobernardino> -1
[11:23] <MootBot> -1 received from brunobernardino. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[11:23] <thorwil> -1
[11:23] <MootBot> -1 received from thorwil. 4 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[11:23] <godbyk> As for the other note boxes (the ones that are smack dab in the middle of the paragraphs): So far, they don't contain any material that requires them to interrupt the paragraph. I'd suggest either moving this material to the margin area or placing the box after the paragraph has finished.
[11:23] <fenre> +1
[11:23] <MootBot> +1 received from fenre. 5 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[11:23] <ring> +1
[11:23] <MootBot> +1 received from ring. 6 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[11:23] <dutchie> godbyk: yeah, they do sort of ruin the run of the paragraph
[11:24] <humphreybc> what is THE MOST important thing we'd need to tell the reader?
[11:24] <brunobernardino> it's not that we're questioning
[11:24] <humphreybc> ie. What should have the highest priority to interrupt the paragraph?
[11:24] <brunobernardino> it's the manual's readibility
[11:24] <brunobernardino> :)
[11:24] <humphreybc> Warnings?
[11:24] <humphreybc> Definitions?
[11:24] <thorwil> shouldn't the most important be the paragraph itself?
[11:24] <brunobernardino> you're reading something, and then only after 4 pages you get something like: "Note: X is a Window System" (just an example)
[11:25] <humphreybc> Right but we can use notes to highlight something as well
[11:25] <brunobernardino> of course the paragraph is important
[11:25] <thorwil> humphreybc: could be emphasis within the text, though
[11:25] <brunobernardino> When you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the reader
[11:25] <humphreybc> notes can be used to provide subtle background information on something, cross referencing, or warnings. Just as some examples
[11:26] <humphreybc> Perhaps we could get rid of in-line notes all together?
[11:26] <godbyk> Some examples of how others have handled warnings: I've seen them be set in a box preceding the section that's dangerous. I've seen icons used next to the paragraph that contains dangerous info.
[11:26] <brunobernardino> yes, and merge them in margin notes
[11:26] <doctormo> I wouldn't have inline notes and such during demonstration and pratical how to sections. They'll interupt the flow
[11:26] <humphreybc> so we have a tonne of margin notes?
[11:26] <thorwil> no, no warnings in the margin, please
[11:26] <godbyk> If the definition/website/note boxes stay small, we can put those in the margin alongside the cross-references.
[11:26] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[11:26] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[11:26] <brunobernardino> I was talking about notes
[11:27] <brunobernardino> (11:25:42) brunobernardino: When you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the read
[11:27] <brunobernardino> not warning
[11:27] <brunobernardino> warnings*
[11:27] <thorwil> yeah
[11:27] <brunobernardino> of course warnings and "MUST READ" info has to go within the paragraph
[11:27] <godbyk> brunobernardino: I'd agree with that.
[11:27] <brunobernardino> or it'll miss it's point
[11:27] <godbyk> If it's short and supplemental, it can go in the margins.  If it's important, it should go in the flow of the main text block.
[11:28] <brunobernardino> exactly, godbyk understood me :)
[11:28] <thorwil> yes
[11:28] <humphreybc> Okay so help me summarize, warnings = in paragraph, maybe bold or bigger font or different colour or something. Cross references and "background info" (as long it's not too long) are in the margins.
[11:28] <brunobernardino> yup
[11:28] <ubuntujenkins> yes
[11:28] <brunobernardino> I agree with that
[11:28] <humphreybc> And we have no in-line notes to interrupt the flow.
[11:28] <godbyk> humphreybc: Yes
[11:28] <ring> go with brubernardino
[11:28] <humphreybc> Okay we need a vote on this I feel :)
[11:28] <ring> +1
[11:28] <brunobernardino> ring: bruno :)
[11:29] <thorwil> humphreybc: other means of emphasis in the text: icons on the start of a paragraph
[11:29] <ring> ok
[11:29] <ring> bruno
[11:29] <humphreybc> [VOTE] Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether.
[11:29] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether..
[11:29] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[11:29] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[11:29] <brunobernardino> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[11:29] <godbyk> +1
[11:29] <dutchie> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from godbyk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[11:29] <humphreybc> +1
[11:29] <thorwil> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from thorwil. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[11:29] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[11:29] <thorwil> bbl
[11:29] <mparmpathomas> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from mparmpathomas. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[11:29] <ring> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from ring. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[11:29] <waltmenz> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
[11:29] <fenre> +1
[11:29] <MootBot> +1 received from fenre. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
[11:29] <humphreybc> doctormo?
[11:30] <brunobernardino> ring: I was saying bruno because you said brubernardino instead of brunobernardino, but you can call me bruno to simplify :)
[11:30] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[11:30] <MootBot> Final result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 10
[11:31] <doctormo> humphreybc: I'm a not voting by stander :-)
[11:31] <brunobernardino> why's that?
[11:31] <humphreybc> nice, so that takes care of what the notes _contain_ - now what they'll _look_ like
[11:31] <humphreybc> he's not technically part of our project :)
[11:31] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] What the margin notes should look like.
[11:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  What the margin notes should look like.
[11:31] <brunobernardino> ok
[11:32] <humphreybc> Suggestions, please.
[11:32] <godbyk> I'd recommend setting them in \footnotesize, no borders or colors.
[11:32]  * dutchie is not a designer
[11:32] <humphreybc> godbyk: I agree.
[11:32] <brunobernardino> as I said before, no color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content
[11:32] <humphreybc> But maybe a different font? Maybe Serif?
[11:33] <brunobernardino> why do you think we should use a different font?
[11:33] <humphreybc> how about having them in BrickRed or Maroon?
[11:33] <humphreybc> Might look nicer :)
[11:33] <brunobernardino> I think that if they look "too" different, they'll stand out way too much
[11:33] <ring> no color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content
[11:34] <brunobernardino> I get what you're saying humphreybc, but the notes objective may fade with that
[11:34] <humphreybc> true
[11:34] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[11:34] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[11:34] <humphreybc> [VOTE] Should the notes have colour?
[11:34] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Should the notes have colour?.
[11:34] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[11:34] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[11:34] <brunobernardino> -1
[11:34] <MootBot> -1 received from brunobernardino. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[11:34] <godbyk> I've been toying with the formatting a bit, but wanted to discuss things with everyone before I tore it apart too much. :)
[11:35] <ring> -1
[11:35] <MootBot> -1 received from ring. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[11:35] <humphreybc> woah kevin, nice!
[11:35] <dutchie> -1
[11:35] <MootBot> -1 received from dutchie. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[11:35] <godbyk> -1
[11:35] <MootBot> -1 received from godbyk. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
[11:35] <mparmpathomas> maybe a backround color would be useful, think different colors for websites, cross references and anything else written in margins, and a guide in the beggining. Margin notes are optional and with the color system the reader can choose what to read...soft colors...so the keeper keeps attraction in the main text
[11:35] <fenre> -1
[11:35] <MootBot> -1 received from fenre. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
[11:35] <ubuntujenkins> I think just an outline
[11:35] <waltmenz> -1
[11:35] <MootBot> -1 received from waltmenz. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6
[11:35] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[11:35] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 6 against. 0 abstained. Total: -6
[11:35] <mparmpathomas> keeper=reader* sry
[11:36] <brunobernardino> mparmpathomas: I don't think there'll be so much of each type of content you mentioned in the margin notes for that to be of use for the reader.
[11:36] <dutchie> godbyk: I like that, we need to get rid of those inline notes now
[11:36] <humphreybc> Okay so no colour, margin notes - left or right side?
[11:36] <godbyk> dutchie: Yeah, that's now on my TODO list. :-)
[11:36] <humphreybc> I personally think right side
[11:37] <godbyk> humphreybc: Depends. Are we wanting to set it up on twoside, so that we can print it on both sides of the paper?
[11:37] <ring> left aligned
[11:37] <humphreybc> you read left to right, it looks nicer. I don't like having the text indented too much when we don't have any notes.
[11:37] <godbyk> (So it looks more like a book when printed.)
[11:37] <humphreybc> Well we'll have to have a 2 pages per page option, to save paper, yes.
[11:37] <humphreybc> But by default, no it'll just be A4 probably
[11:37] <godbyk> highvolt1ge: Then the notes should go on the outside margins.
[11:38] <godbyk> Whoops, meant humphreybc, not highvolt1ge.
[11:38] <humphreybc> heh
[11:38] <brunobernardino> yes, on the right
[11:38] <godbyk> (Silly xchat autocomplete!)
[11:39] <brunobernardino> hehe :)
[11:39] <humphreybc> I think the right, I mean not many people are going to actually print this thing - it's going to be about 80-100 pages at my estimate, which makes 50 pages when printed 2 up. And lots of screenshots too...
[11:39] <humphreybc> even if it is printed in bw, it'll still use a tonne of ink
[11:39] <humphreybc> plus our research suggests that most people won't be inclined to print
[11:39] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Research#Results
[11:39] <brunobernardino> I think we should work on making it smaller in number of pages
[11:39] <humphreybc> Question 4
[11:39] <c7p> does this help (http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278)?
[11:40] <humphreybc> c7p: URL doesn't work
[11:40] <c7p> http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278
[11:40] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278
[11:40] <humphreybc> bruno: yeah we can work on slimming it down after we've got to alpha
[11:40] <humphreybc> oh link didn't work due to ?
[11:41] <humphreybc> [VOTE] Should the margin notes be on the right?
[11:41] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Should the margin notes be on the right?.
[11:41] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[11:41] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[11:41] <humphreybc> +1
[11:41] <MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[11:41] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[11:41] <MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[11:41] <waltmenz> +1
[11:41] <MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[11:41] <mparmpathomas> +1
[11:41] <MootBot> +1 received from mparmpathomas. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[11:41] <vish> +1
[11:41] <MootBot> +1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[11:41] <dutchie> +1/2
[11:42] <dutchie> ;)
[11:42] <brunobernardino> +1
[11:42] <MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[11:42] <humphreybc> dutchie: technically that would be +-1 :P
[11:42] <ring> +1
[11:42] <MootBot> +1 received from ring. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[11:42]  * vish throws out dutchie's invalid vote ;p
[11:42] <fenre> +1
[11:42] <MootBot> +1 received from fenre. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[11:42] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf  (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.)
[11:42] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf  (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.)
[11:42] <humphreybc> (the way I am running votes tonight is basically raising the topic, waiting for some discussions and opinions. If there are none then I will hold a vote)
[11:43] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[11:43] <MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 8
[11:43] <humphreybc> So on the right I guess
[11:43] <godbyk> Cool, since that's the default. :-)  (No extra coding for me!)
[11:43] <humphreybc> haha nice
[11:44] <brunobernardino> have you thought about making the margin notes go in the bottom?
[11:44] <brunobernardino> footer notes?
[11:44] <brunobernardino> just brainstorming here :)
[11:44] <humphreybc> bruno: that would probably use too much space in the end
[11:44] <humphreybc> altho
[11:44] <humphreybc> i'm not sure
[11:44] <godbyk> brunobernardino: We could do that, too.  I guess it depends on how easily people should be able to read the notes.
[11:44] <humphreybc> I like margin better
[11:45] <brunobernardino> I get the sense it attracts too much attention on the right
[11:45] <humphreybc> It suits a "manual" more, I think.
[11:45] <godbyk> If you don't want people to read them, footnotes are good.  :-)
[11:45] <brunobernardino> godbyk: that's mean :) I read footnotes
[11:45] <godbyk> Having a wider margin is also handy for those who want to take notes.
[11:45] <humphreybc> godbyk: good point
[11:45] <humphreybc> I think we'll go with margin notes, thanks anyway bruno :)
[11:45] <ubuntujenkins> if there are multiple notes on a page and they are in the footer you have to reference them
[11:45] <godbyk> brunobernardino: I do, too.  But I hate having to disrupt my place in the paragraph to immediately read the footnote.
[11:45] <brunobernardino> ok
[11:46] <godbyk> Endnotes are even worse. Keeping two bookmarks.  Ugh.
[11:46] <brunobernardino> no problem, that's what we're here to do, discuss ideas, and see if they suit or not the objectives
[11:46] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] How we are going to format the warnings etc
[11:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  How we are going to format the warnings etc
[11:46] <humphreybc> So, different colour? Bigger font? Bold? Underlined? Icons?
[11:46] <godbyk> We might want to discuss warnings after we have some to format.  So far I haven't seen the callouts used as warnings.
[11:47] <brunobernardino> yes, but we can imagine some
[11:47] <brunobernardino> I believe we have two good options, imo:
[11:47] <humphreybc> Well there will be plenty in chapter 7 :P
[11:47] <brunobernardino> A small squared box on the left, OR a wide rectangle on the top of the paragraph
[11:47] <humphreybc> I think we should make them a wee bit bigger, perhaps bold (either or, not both) and have a warning symbol to the left of them in the left margin.
[11:48] <humphreybc> I'm not a huge fan of boxes or borders around text
[11:48] <brunobernardino> these both should have a thin border with a very faded background and an image on the left
[11:48] <brunobernardino> maybe I'm thinking too much website-style, my bad :)
[11:48] <godbyk> I think just having a warning icon to the left of an indented paragraph is enough.
[11:48] <humphreybc> and an icon like this: http://www.rhealth.com.au/content/Image/600px-warning_icon_svg.png
[11:48] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk +1
[11:48] <godbyk> I think that most boxes and borders are completely unnecessary.
[11:48] <humphreybc> godbyk, I agree
[11:49] <ubuntujenkins> exactly like that humphreybc
[11:49] <brunobernardino> yes humphreybc I like that icon
[11:49] <godbyk> humphreybc: Exactly like the icon I was thinking about.
[11:49] <vish> humphreybc: use icons from humanity as far as possible , we already have the warning icon
[11:49] <ubuntujenkins> a little explination at the start of the document to explain what the icon means
[11:49] <humphreybc> [VOTE] Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented.
[11:49] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented..
[11:49] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[11:49] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[11:49] <brunobernardino> +1
[11:49] <MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[11:49] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[11:49] <MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[11:49] <godbyk> +1
[11:49] <MootBot> +1 received from godbyk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[11:49] <humphreybc> vish: yeah we will, that was just the easiest one for me to grab as an example
[11:50] <vish> ok then +1
[11:50] <humphreybc> +1
[11:50] <MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[11:50] <vish> +1
[11:50] <MootBot> +1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[11:50] <humphreybc> dutchie?
[11:51] <waltmenz> +1
[11:51] <MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[11:51] <dutchie> +_1
[11:51] <dutchie> +!
[11:51] <dutchie> +1
[11:51] <MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[11:51] <brunobernardino> lol
[11:51] <humphreybc> LOL
[11:51] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[11:51] <MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7
[11:51] <fenre> +1
[11:51] <humphreybc> oh noes!
[11:51] <humphreybc> i'll put it as 8
[11:51] <brunobernardino> oh noes!
[11:51] <brunobernardino> :)
[11:51] <brunobernardino> indeed
[11:51] <humphreybc> cool
[11:52] <fenre> sorry about that :P
[11:52] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Making the project more self-documenting
[11:52] <brunobernardino> np, humphreybc's bad there ;)
[11:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Making the project more self-documenting
[11:52] <humphreybc> Okay so let me explain
[11:52] <humphreybc> At the moment we have a gargantuan wiki
[11:52] <humphreybc> And, although I try to make it easy
[11:52] <humphreybc> It can be difficult for users to know what's happening
[11:52] <humphreybc> So I propose more documentation INSIDE the branch
[11:53] <humphreybc> ie, more info i the readme, perhaps a better readme with formatting
[11:53] <dutchie> you talking READMEs?
[11:53] <humphreybc> And I also think each chapter should have a file with "notes" in it on what the chapter should contain, and anything else that is important
[11:53] <humphreybc> I'm going to re-work the wiki this week sometime and cut down on some of the crap :)
[11:54] <humphreybc> Feedback?
[11:54] <brunobernardino> I'm not sure I'm getting what you want :S
[11:54] <ubuntujenkins> as long as it is in one place i don't mind it just shouldn't be some on the wiki and some in the notes.
[11:55] <godbyk> And if it's in multiple places, how will it stay in sync?
[11:55] <humphreybc> ah well that's up to me lol
[11:55] <humphreybc> So everyone is happy with the current documentation?
[11:55] <godbyk> There seems to be more LaTeX how-to stuff in the readme.txt file than in the style guide (wiki), for instance.
[11:55] <dutchie> +1 for putting it all in the READMEs
[11:55] <humphreybc> what the WHOLE wiki?
[11:56] <dutchie> well, no
[11:56] <humphreybc> just the tex stuff?
[11:56] <dutchie> but everything you need to know to do a basic additio
[11:56] <humphreybc> I think the style guide etc should definitely be in the branch
[11:56] <dutchie> n
[11:56] <humphreybc> and if we could get some basic HTML going to actually format it a wee bit to make it easier to read, then that would be even better
[11:56] <brunobernardino> I believe "tech" stuff that's not really relevant to the users who seek information about the manual itself (what's on it, download it, etc.) should go in some README file, yes, for the sake of making the wiki more "user-friendly"
[11:57] <humphreybc> Hmm
[11:57] <humphreybc> So who's going to do all the readme stuff?
[11:57] <brunobernardino> Quoting: "(11:55:29) humphreybc: ah well that's up to me lol"
[11:57] <humphreybc> yes well
[11:57] <brunobernardino> kidding
[11:57] <humphreybc> I'll see how I go
[11:58] <humphreybc> I'm not a whizz at the tech stuff though, and I didn't write the style guide
[11:58] <humphreybc> I can do little changes to keep stuff up to date
[11:58] <godbyk> I can write up LaTeX how-to stuff and maintain a style guide, I s'pose.
[11:58] <brunobernardino> I'm just thinking whoever does the technical stuff would be most fit to add changes in a readme file
[11:58] <humphreybc> but not really keen on writing a large HTML how to tex doc
[11:58] <humphreybc> well that would be godbyk and dutchie
[11:58] <dutchie> I'm happy to do that
[11:58] <brunobernardino> I don't think an "how to tex" doc would be a god idea, aren't there many out there already?
[11:59] <humphreybc> yeah but relevant to our project
[11:59] <godbyk> brunobernardino: More of a how-to for the ubuntu-manual-related TeX.
[11:59] <brunobernardino> ok then, so it would be in the readme
[11:59] <humphreybc> yep
[11:59] <brunobernardino> but in plain texto
[11:59] <brunobernardino> text*
[11:59] <godbyk> Our own commands like \marginnote, \begin{terminal}, etc.
[11:59] <humphreybc> well plain text at a minimum... even odt could work better
[11:59] <brunobernardino> I don't see how an html manual would help making it easier to write/maintain
[11:59] <humphreybc> it won't, it'll just be easier for newbies to read :)
[12:00] <brunobernardino> well, do newbies care about tex?
[12:00] <humphreybc> can you imagine if the entire wiki was just plain text on one page?
[12:00] <brunobernardino> no, of course not
[12:00] <humphreybc> sure, we've had tonnes of newbies want to help
[12:00] <brunobernardino> but I believe it's meant for two different types of public
[12:00] <humphreybc> well they might be newbies at tex, but not at everything else
[12:00] <brunobernardino> oh, ok
[12:00] <humphreybc> For example, people who are english teachers and want to help edit, but have never used latex before
[12:00] <brunobernardino> but so we're back to what I was saying before
[12:00] <ubuntujenkins> I am new a tex
[12:00] <godbyk> I think that the TeX stuff used by the authors is fairly minimal.
[12:01] <brunobernardino> how-to tex can be learnt easily somewhere else. What should go there is the how-to tex for ubuntu-manual
[12:01] <humphreybc> Okay so improve the existing readme.txt?
[12:01] <ubuntujenkins> seems easy enough I have no clue how to add commands to make boxes but if they are there I can use them
[12:01] <humphreybc> Leave the stuff on the wiki?
[12:01] <brunobernardino> I'm just trying to make it easier to maintain, like you said, this is the "Making the project more self-documenting" topic
[12:01] <ubuntujenkins> leave it on the wiki
[12:02] <humphreybc> righto
[12:02] <humphreybc> dutchie or godbyk perhaps you could go over the readme.txt and just update it, and also make sure there is a clear point to our wiki for more infor
[12:02] <godbyk> humphreybc: Sure.
[12:02] <humphreybc> neat
[12:02] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Format of the Credits
[12:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Format of the Credits
[12:02] <humphreybc> So for this I was just thinking a two column layout, without bullet points
[12:03] <humphreybc> And we could probably alphabetize the list of people
[12:03] <fenre> sounds good
[12:03] <humphreybc> Oh and maybe a couple of pts smaller font, to save space
[12:03] <humphreybc> we want to fit it all on one page if possible
[12:03] <godbyk> I can play with that pretty easily.
[12:03] <ubuntujenkins> we could probably do three columns
[12:03] <humphreybc> godbyk: how easy is a two column layout list without bullet points?
[12:03] <godbyk> Easy peasy.
[12:03] <brunobernardino> yes
[12:03] <humphreybc> yeah three columns even
[12:03] <humphreybc> awesome
[12:03] <humphreybc> sounds good
[12:04] <brunobernardino> I thought the font was too big
[12:04] <humphreybc> yeah it's just default font for now
[12:04] <humphreybc> but smaller would be swell
[12:04] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Style of the Footer - and do we want/need a header?
[12:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Style of the Footer - and do we want/need a header?
[12:05] <godbyk> What are we including in the credit lines? Just author names? Titles? Emails/websites?
[12:05] <humphreybc> Just names
[12:05] <humphreybc> oh and the title of each thing
[12:05] <godbyk> Okay.
[12:05] <humphreybc> so like how it is now
[12:05] <humphreybc> although I might remove the "Project Leads" section
[12:05] <humphreybc> I don't know how necessary that is. We should probably have some way of recognizing the people who put the most effort in, but we can come to that later.
[12:05] <godbyk> For the running feet, I'd say just include the page number (unless you expect people will print the manual, then perhaps the manual title and chapter name).
[12:06] <ubuntujenkins> page number  and title and chapter name any way
[12:06] <humphreybc> Sure and colour/font size etc? I think it looks pretty good how it is. We may as well include the title and chapter name, if we have space.
[12:06] <brunobernardino> yes
[12:07] <ubuntujenkins> small font slightly grey/pail black
[12:07] <godbyk> Why clutter the page by repeating the book title over and over?  Surely you've never forgotten which book you're reading.
[12:07] <humphreybc> true
[12:07] <brunobernardino> I believe the manual title + chapter name (left) and page number (right) - on the footer
[12:07] <humphreybc> maybe just chapter title on the left, page number right
[12:07] <brunobernardino> like ubuntujenkins said
[12:07] <humphreybc> ah beat me to it :)
[12:07] <godbyk> The chapter title is handy if you're flipping through the book to find the start of the chapter or a section referenced in that chapter.
[12:07] <brunobernardino> godbyk: you're right, no manual title
[12:07] <humphreybc> Although "Ubuntu Manual - Preferences and Hardware" doesn't take up much room when it's small and in grey or light red
[12:07] <godbyk> But generally, putting the book title and author name on each page seems pointless to me.
[12:08] <humphreybc> okay
[12:08] <humphreybc> well then perhaps just chapter title
[12:08] <humphreybc> chapter number?
[12:08] <brunobernardino> yes
[12:08] <ubuntujenkins> chapter Title
[12:08] <humphreybc> Preferences and Hardware or 6. Preferences and Hardware ?
[12:08] <brunobernardino> it can be useful for looking up a chapter
[12:08] <brunobernardino> we memorize the number easier
[12:08] <humphreybc> number + title I reckon
[12:08] <godbyk> The number can be handy if you told someone to see chapter 10 for more info.
[12:08] <brunobernardino> yup
[12:08] <humphreybc> okay number + title it is
[12:08] <brunobernardino> or lookup in the index
[12:09] <ubuntujenkins> I don't like remembering numbers so both for the people who don't like names
[12:09] <brunobernardino> hehe :)
[12:09] <humphreybc> And header? We don't need it, nor want it.
[12:09] <humphreybc> I just thought I'd cover all possible options.
[12:09] <humphreybc> does anyone own the "Official Ubuntu Book"?
[12:10] <brunobernardino> this' embarassing, but no :(
[12:11] <humphreybc> righto moving on then
[12:11] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Font colours review
[12:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Font colours review
[12:11] <humphreybc> I think they look good how they are.
[12:12] <godbyk> We should consider how they'll look if printed, too.  (They may look fine, I haven't really looked yet.)
[12:12] <humphreybc> Black for chapter headings, maroon for section headings, browny/gold for subsections.
[12:12] <humphreybc> Ah true
[12:12] <humphreybc> I might print off a few pages to test it out
[12:12] <humphreybc> although what's it set to atm? A4 or US Letter?
[12:12] <godbyk> Letter still.
[12:12] <brunobernardino> I like the font colors atm
[12:13] <brunobernardino> make it A4, it's better, right?
[12:13] <humphreybc> Yeah that's coming up on the agenda
[12:13] <brunobernardino> ok
[12:13] <godbyk> Also, it might be good to pick colors from the selected cover page, but I don't think it's required.
[12:13] <humphreybc> [VOTE] Font colours, stay the same.
[12:13] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Font colours, stay the same..
[12:13] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[12:13] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[12:13] <ubuntujenkins> +1
[12:13] <MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[12:13] <godbyk> +0
[12:13] <MootBot> Abstention received from godbyk. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[12:13] <humphreybc> The selected title page artist can tweak their colours to match ours
[12:13] <humphreybc> +1
[12:13] <MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[12:13] <brunobernardino> +1
[12:13] <MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[12:13] <dutchie> +1
[12:13] <MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[12:13] <waltmenz> +1
[12:13] <MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[12:14] <brunobernardino> humphreybc: yup
[12:14] <humphreybc> final call for vote
[12:14] <brunobernardino> fenre: you there? vote now! :)
[12:14] <humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
[12:14] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
[12:14] <brunobernardino> I think that's a wrap. We're decreasing on number of votes :|
[12:15] <humphreybc> We are.
[12:15] <humphreybc> But we need to decide on a couple more things
[12:15] <humphreybc> I'll combine them all :)
[12:15] <brunobernardino> hmm, it's getting "late" for me also. how many more topics?
[12:15] <humphreybc> It's 1:20am here
[12:15] <humphreybc> and I have class in under 8 hours
[12:15] <brunobernardino> it's 12:20 here, I gotta prepare lunch :)
[12:16] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Page Size - A4? Screenshot resolution? Are we still on track?
[12:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Page Size - A4? Screenshot resolution? Are we still on track?
[12:16] <brunobernardino> I'm UTC :)
[12:16] <humphreybc> I just condensed the important things
[12:16] <godbyk> I think the paper size should depend on the language.
[12:16] <humphreybc> bruno that's handy
[12:16] <godbyk> Since we're doing translations anyway.
[12:16] <humphreybc> That makes sense
[12:16] <humphreybc> Can we automate that?
[12:16] <brunobernardino> Page Size - A4, Screenshot 800x600, Yes.
[12:16] <godbyk> re: screenshot resolution, what are our options?
[12:16] <humphreybc> 800x600 would look crap when printed at a high dpi though
[12:17] <fenre> sorry, humphreybc. Was temp afk
[12:17] <brunobernardino> well, but for someone not wanting to spend too much ink
[12:17] <humphreybc> Well we can't have it too high that they're too large in file size, but they can't be too low that they are unreadable when printed.
[12:17] <godbyk> Any screenshots will look crappy if they're scaled badly.  There's no helping that, really.
[12:17] <humphreybc> I think we'll have to do some testing
[12:17] <dutchie> It'd be fairly easy to automate if it was possible to specify on the cli what the paper size is
[12:17] <brunobernardino> so 1024x768 probably is the most suitable
[12:17] <brunobernardino> not too big, not too small
[12:17] <humphreybc> and .png
[12:17] <dutchie> I mean, I can sed it, but there should be a better way
[12:17] <brunobernardino> yes, png definately!
[12:18] <godbyk> dutchie: do you know how the translations are getting pulled back in to LaTeX?
[12:18] <godbyk> we can probably use that same method to set the paper size and language for babel.
[12:18] <dutchie> po4a generates a translated main.tex file
[12:18] <godbyk> we should also look at using csquotes or similar to handle language-specific quotation styles.
[12:18] <godbyk> dutchie: cool.  we can handle the paper size and whatnot from there, then.
[12:18]  * humphreybc lets the tech folks talk :P
[12:19] <brunobernardino> heh
[12:19] <dutchie> so, you run po4a, and it makes say fr/main.tex
[12:19] <humphreybc> neat. So that's those two - now, "Are we on track?"
[12:19] <humphreybc> Three weeks till alpha.
[12:19] <humphreybc> We're supposed to have all content in place by then, bar screenshots
[12:19] <godbyk> no clue, I'm just writing LaTeX code. :-)
[12:19] <humphreybc> heh
[12:19] <brunobernardino> lol
[12:19] <humphreybc> dutchie?
[12:20] <brunobernardino> I'm just translating, and I have a question about that after we finish this topic
[12:20] <dutchie> translations seem to be continuing apace
[12:20] <humphreybc> and what about main content
[12:20] <humphreybc> ?
[12:20] <humphreybc> We seem to be missing a fair chunk
[12:20] <humphreybc> Although 3 weeks...
[12:20] <humphreybc> It's only been 2 weeks since we actually really started
[12:20] <dutchie> I'm not sure
[12:20] <brunobernardino> I do believe there's some text missing.
[12:20] <humphreybc> So I think we should be able to make it
[12:20] <dutchie> I've always said it'll be close :)
[12:20] <humphreybc> There is a *lot* of text missing
[12:20] <brunobernardino> yes, it's not impossible
[12:20] <humphreybc> We've got ages till beta anyway
[12:21] <humphreybc> and then another 6 weeks after that to RC
[12:21] <humphreybc> so we should be okay
[12:21] <humphreybc> sweet.
[12:21] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Questions and Feedback
[12:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Questions and Feedback
[12:21] <humphreybc> Okay go for it guys
[12:21] <godbyk> I have a few questions:
[12:21] <godbyk> Do we want to have a list of acronyms?
[12:21] <godbyk> Do we want a glossary?
[12:21] <brunobernardino> I was just an euphemism
[12:21] <brunobernardino> it*
[12:22] <godbyk> (I added an index the other day, but we'll need to add more stuff to it and decide what should be indexed.)
[12:22] <godbyk> AFAIK, we're not required to use (R) and TM, so why are we?  (They look ugly. :-))
[12:22] <brunobernardino> I'd like to know if what happened about a week ago with the translations is likely to happen again (most of them "kaput")
[12:22] <godbyk> Are there any 'how do I..?' questions from authors related to LaTeX that I can help answer?
[12:23] <dutchie> brunobernardino: I don't think so
[12:23] <godbyk> .. I think that's most of the questions I had on my list. :-)
[12:23] <humphreybc> "Do we want to have a list of acronyms" - I don't think so. We can just try and explain them in brackets when each one is encountered for the first time.  Many *nix terms will be new to users, so we should have a glossary.
[12:24] <humphreybc> dutchie what was the cause of the translation meltdown?
[12:24] <thorwil> what about acronyms in the glossary? :)
[12:25] <humphreybc> thorwil yeah that would make sense, for particularly difficult ones I guess.
[12:25] <dutchie> humphreybc: launchpad not importing the old ones
[12:25] <humphreybc> ah ha
[12:25] <dutchie> should be fixed now
[12:25] <dutchie> or, it will be when I next update them
[12:25] <humphreybc> nice
[12:26] <humphreybc> well
[12:26] <humphreybc> I guess that's it
[12:26] <fenre> all right :)
[12:26] <godbyk> cool
[12:26] <dutchie> blimey, another 90 minute meeting
[12:26] <thorwil> indentation and title page have been discussed?
[12:26] <humphreybc> I'll put up a summary on the wiki with vote results and stuff that will now change due to this meeting, as well as email the mailing list the changes :)
[12:26] <humphreybc> dutchie: god i know!
[12:26] <dutchie> next meeting?
[12:27] <dutchie> we going for 2000 UTC on saturday?
[12:27] <humphreybc> indentation - not really. Title page, no, we'll just keep going how we are going with feedback on the wiki page and proposals
[12:27] <humphreybc> yeah we'll change to 2000 UTC on saturady
[12:27] <thorwil> ok
[12:27] <humphreybc> we might have a break for next weekend
[12:27] <humphreybc> :)
[12:27] <humphreybc> I better do some work for my exams
[12:27] <ubuntujenkins> same
[12:27] <humphreybc> awesome
[12:27] <thorwil> cool, no conflict with lunch, then :)
[12:27] <fenre> isn't that what weekdays are for?
[12:27]  * godbyk is glad he's finally done with classes.  just a dissertation left. :-/
[12:28] <humphreybc> hahaha
[12:28] <humphreybc> Righto guys, thanks for coming. Have a good week! I also have some news from the talks with the docs team that I will share tomorrow
[12:28] <dutchie> good news?
[12:28] <humphreybc> #endmeeting
[12:28] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:28.
[12:28] <humphreybc> Yep it's good news.
[12:29] <dutchie> excellent
[12:29] <humphreybc> night all!
[12:29] <fenre> night..
[12:29] <ubuntujenkins> night..
[12:30] <brunobernardino> hehe godbyk
[12:30] <brunobernardino> dutchie: ok then, I'll continue translating to Portuguese on monday or tuesday.
[12:30] <brunobernardino> I'd love to help in so many more ways, but I have no spare time at all, and translating is what I found I could do that would not take me too much time and really be of use anyway
[12:30] <brunobernardino> these meetings also :)
[12:30] <brunobernardino> oh, how about the next meeting hour? Have you guys decided on that yet?
[12:31] <brunobernardino> hello?
[12:31] <brunobernardino> ok, I g2g, cya later ppl. I'll stay online to check your answers later on
[12:31] <fenre> I guess it will be posted on the mailing list
[14:15] <abhi_> anyone here related to Ubuntu Manual Marathi conversion group?
[14:15] <discoteka> what is marathi?
[14:16] <abhi_> Marathi is our language.
[14:16] <abhi_> Maharashtra state of India.
[14:16] <discoteka> sorry - no here for English :D
[14:16] <abhi_> ok
[14:16] <abhi_> :D
[14:17] <abhi_> exit
[20:04] <gnomefreak> n/win 1
[23:06] <Firepowerforfree> That's Firepowerforfreedom
[23:06] <Firepowerforfree> oi


[12:06] <sagaci> l2p qld
[12:07] <head_victim> I had to look that up ;)
[13:03] <loklaan> footzball
[13:03] <loklaan> erghh :P