[02:45] <mnaines> I take it everyone's asleep...
[02:46]  * mneptok yawns
[02:46] <mneptok> mnaines: how can we help?
[02:46] <mnaines> Oh, I just came in to see if I could get a ban removed
[02:47] <mneptok> in what channel? who set the ban?
[02:48] <mnaines> Flannel set the ban, and it was in the main Ubuntu channel...Apparently, I got banned because I was bashing Windows Vista
[02:48] <mnaines> That guy is a handful sometimes
[02:49] <mneptok> yes, Vista can be a handful
[02:49] <mnaines> Flannel is a handful, too...Hard to reason with him because of his one-track mind
[02:49] <mnaines> He seems more intent on enforcing the rules than he does on helping people
[02:50] <mneptok> and that track, in your estimation, is ... ?
[02:50] <mneptok> it might occur to you that enforcing the rules *does* help people, by allowing the channel to operate in a way that allows people to get help.
[02:51] <mnaines> well, he takes it to the extreme...If you don't talk about Ubtuntu-related stuff or if you're just sitting idle in the room, he kicks you out
[02:51] <mneptok> i have yet to see anyone get kicked for idling in #ubuntu
[02:52] <mneptok> if you would like to produce evidence from the public logs, i'll gladly adjust my perceptions
[02:52] <mnaines> I routinely see "Connection reset by peer" and other messages when people leave
[02:52] <mneptok> and #ubuntu is only for Ubuntu support.
[02:52] <mneptok> and you think that's Flannel?
[02:53] <mnaines> Anyway, the issue in question stemmed from someone wanting to dual-boot Windows Vista and Ubuntu, and when I tried to talk the guy out of using Vista, I got banned
[02:53] <mneptok> because that's not helpful
[02:54] <mneptok> #ubuntu is not a channel for you to grind your own political axes
[02:54] <mnaines> He said he only had 2GB of RAM and he wanted Windows to play games on...I knew right then that Vista wasn't going to run on his machine very well and tried to tell him that
[02:54] <mneptok> and if the game he referred to was Minesweeper?
[02:55] <mnaines> Even then, Vista itself is a pig...The Vista Aero desktop itself requires at least 2GB to run without any lag
[02:55] <mneptok> and if he had Home Basic?
[02:56] <mnaines> And don't even get me started about how Vista does not stop running the hard drive at 100% all because of the "Windows Search Index" service
[02:56] <mneptok> you can disable services in Windows.
[02:56] <mnaines> Most users should not take such a risk unless they have an expert to talk them through it
[02:56] <jdong> indeed, and it could possibly be doing something useful using background IO :)
[02:57] <mneptok> #ubuntu is not a channel in which to foist your personal computing choices on others.
[02:57] <mnaines> Its not a personal computing choice...Its one of those "I don't want to see you make the same mistakes I made" sort of thing
[02:57] <mneptok> oh, charming
[02:58] <mneptok> 19:57 [Freenode] [mnaines(n=mnaines@<IP_ADDRESS>)] Bot Sentry engaged:  you are now being ignored!  Your message will be delivered if you can correctly answer the following question within 10 minutes:  How do you spell the number 10?
[02:58] <mneptok> because of a CTCP
[02:58] <mnaines> Yeah...I had to spend $2,500 on a quad-core machine just to be able to run my games without any lag on Vista Home Premium
[02:59] <mneptok> mnaines: can you hear me now?
[02:59] <mnaines> Yes
[02:59] <mneptok> good
[02:59] <mneptok> i suggest you disable that script while talking in -ops
[02:59] <mneptok> i see that you use Pidgin for IRC
[02:59] <mnaines> It only applies if you IM me...I don't accept IMs from people in chat
[03:00] <mnaines> That is a mentality I carry with me from my Yahoo Chat experience
[03:00] <mneptok> irssi is a vastly superior IRC client. how about i spend an hour or so discussing you choice of IRC client before we discuss that ban?
[03:00] <mnaines> As long as it is a clean and civil debate, I'm all for it
[03:01] <mneptok> or, better yet, why don;t i leave my personal computing decisions at the door, and discuss with you the topic you wanted to discuss when you /join'ed this channel?
[03:01] <mnaines> I only chose Pidgin so I can have all my instant messengers and chat programs in one place
[03:01] <mneptok> wouldn't that be a better use of our time?
[03:01] <mnaines> Yes, it would
[03:01] <mneptok> i'm glad we agree.
[03:02] <mneptok> may we expect the same discretion from you in Ubuntu channels in the future?
[03:02] <mnaines> Well, its hard to get me to disagree with such trivial matters...Ever since I was born, I have always tried to find some sort of middle ground on topics I could not agree on
[03:03] <mneptok> the middle ground in #ubuntu is "help the person with the issue they are asking about, refer them to the proper place if it is not Ubuntu-related, or remain silent."
[03:03] <mnaines> Its a two-way street...My experience here in IRC isn't quite up to par yet...My experience in Yahoo chat is such that people totally disregard the room topic and talk about whatever is on their minds...But Yahoo's rooms are limited to 50 users maximum
[03:04] <mneptok> welcome to the real world, Neo.
[03:04] <mnaines> Sometimes the proper place isn't good enough...Some of the other rooms aren't anywhere near as active and some of them are dead or dying
[03:04] <mneptok> ##windows is quite lively
[03:05] <mneptok> "You might want to ask about the Vista experience with gaming in ##windows. this is #ubuntu. you might get better advice elsewhere."
[03:05] <mnaines> I wasn't talking about ##Windows...I was talking about smaller channels like #python or other places like that
[03:05] <mneptok> i can *guarantee* that a response like that will not irk Flannel
[03:06] <mnaines> Well, I can agree to that, but I also think Flannel needs to work on his self-discipline...He's beginning to act a lot like my stepdad
[03:06] <mnaines> My stepdad is the type who will go fisticuffs over a parking space if you don't give him enough room to get his fat rear end out of his big duallie diesel truck
[03:07] <mneptok> it sounds like issues in one part of your life are spilling over into others, to your detriment.
[03:07] <mneptok> but what do i know? i'm no licensed health professional.
[03:08] <mnaines> Unfortunately...And I'm working on fixing that, but I have no help on that matter, and my Asperger Syndrome doesn't make things any better
[03:09] <mnaines> I have AS, Tourette Syndrome, and OCD in addition to having a dysfunctional family...You can see how hard it is for me to keep one part of my life from affecting the others
[03:09] <mneptok> sadly, Flannel has no control over any of that. but he does have control over the Ubuntu channels, and follows the same guidelines we all do.
[03:09] <mnaines> Well, I think you can agree that we all need to work on self-discipline as well...Even I am lacking in that department somedays
[03:10] <mnaines> I get stressed out really easily, and when I get stressed out, my common sense and self-discipline go right out the window
[03:11] <mneptok> that's when it's time to leave IRC
[03:11] <mnaines> Fortunately, the window isn't able to open as much now as it used to when I was in high school...Now, I'm at least able to keep myself from punching someone's face in when I get stressed out
[03:11] <mneptok> in through the nose ... out through the mouth ... focus ...
[03:12] <mnaines> and I'm beginning to get to the point where music actually calms me down...
[03:12] <mnaines> Though when I get to that point, you can't get me to shut up about my favorite songs and why I listen to them
[03:13] <mneptok> so, given the OCD, Aspberger's, and Tourette's, do you find it somewhat likely that your behavior is more to blame here than is Flannel's?
[03:13] <mneptok> not YOU. you behavior.
[03:13] <mneptok> *your
[03:14] <mneptok> FYI, if i had seen you trying to talk people out of using Vista when they were asking for help, i would have been miffed, too.
[03:14] <mneptok> so, drop me in the same metal compartment as Flannel, if you please.
[03:14] <mneptok> *mental
[03:15] <mnaines> Well, I understand my behavior is a problem...It always has been...When I was in grade school, I routinely got in trouble because I wouldn't sit still long enough to pay attention and I had a nasty habit of questioning the teacher...When I got to high school, that changed to being a rebel and anarchist-wannabe and now its changed to being very critical and questioning every order I'm given
[03:16] <mneptok> that's a recipe for disaster in busy IRC channels with stressed and busy volunteer ops.
[03:16] <mneptok> best to nod your head, /join here, and ask, in a civilized and respectful tone, to discuss the issue.
[03:16] <mnaines> Its a recipe for CPC everywhere I go...
[03:17] <mnaines> "Chaos, panic, confusion..."
[03:17] <mneptok> so, let's remove Flannel from the equation, as i would have done the same thing, and by your own admission your behavior is problematic. deal?
[03:17] <mnaines> Of course...
[03:17] <mneptok> smashing.
[03:18] <mnaines> I know I need to work on my self-discipline, and believe me, I am working on it, but with the way my life is and the fact I don't have any help in that area, its becoming quite a challenge
[03:19] <mneptok> now, i think if you were to apologize to Flannel and to agree to follow all op requests without compaint in *public* channels, and instead complain here in a civilized and respectful way when you thought ops were *really* out of line, that Flannel may well be persuaded to remove your ban.
[03:19] <mnaines> Flannel doesn't seem to be active at this time...
[03:20] <mnaines> I wouldn't be surprised...Poor guy is probably getting ready for bed...
[03:20] <mneptok> he'll read backscroll. i'll make sure of it.
[03:21] <mnaines> Unfortunately, apologies are another challenge for me...
[03:22] <mneptok> it doesn't have to be now.
[03:22] <maco> i suppose the hard part is figuring out what $FOO is in "i'm sorry that i $FOO"
[03:22] <mneptok> go digest what we've discussed, and come back when you have more to say. perhaps the apology will flow more easily then.
[03:23] <mnaines> Its not that the apology can't flow easily...Its that I've always been nervous about doling them out because most of the times I did, they were ignored and nothing was done to resolve the issue
[03:23] <mneptok> "I'm sorry I made this about you, rather than about your reaction to my behavior. Please understand, my behavior and my core self are somewhat disjointed because of some issues I have. etc etc etc"
[03:24] <maco> mnaines: i think the important thing with making an apology is that you made an attempt. whether the person excepts it or not is not up to you, so don't stress over that
[03:24] <mneptok> mnaines: Flannel's actually a pretty hoopy frood.
[03:24] <mnaines> Every time I apologized IRL, the responses I always got back were either "You should have thought about that before you committed the crime" or "If you were sorry, you never would have done it"
[03:24] <mnaines> I eventually just gave up on it
[03:25] <mneptok> mnaines: that says more about the listener than it does about your apology, IMO
[03:26] <mnaines> I agree...But now you understand why I get nervous about doling out apologies
[03:26] <maco> mneptok: a hoopy frood? /me takes away the Douglas Adams
[03:27] <mnaines> I'm not a mean drunk...I actually get pretty hyperactive when I'm drunk
[03:27] <mnaines> But then again, I rarely ever drink alcohol...I overdose on caffeine quite a bit, though
[03:28] <mneptok> mnaines: Flannel will read this. and i think if you apologize and promise to follow ops' requests, and keep all disagreements here, you may find you make a new friend.
[03:28] <mnaines> Its always been hard for me to make friends...Not because of them or anything, but because of my intense shyness
[03:28] <mneptok> mnaines: check back in a few whiles, or tomorrow. find the Flannel-man, and have the kind of coversation with him you have had with me.
[03:29] <mnaines> My shyness is so intense at times that I often demote myself to being an observer rather than a participant in the game of life, and there are days where I won't talk to or trust anyone
[03:30] <mneptok> well, someone has to extend the hand first. and thus far, you've been throwing fire at Flannel. i think you'll have to go first. sadly, i think you have yourself to blame for that.
[03:30] <mneptok> sucks, i know. but i do it all the time, too.
[03:30] <mnaines> Of course...I always have to be the one to fight the fire
[03:31] <mneptok> well, stop setting your house ablaze ;)
[03:31] <mnaines> Even in RL...Sometimes IRL, I get stuck cleaning up other people's mistakes because of their habit of blaming the new guy for anything that goes wrong
[03:32] <mnaines> Sometimes if I'm the bearer of bad news, they seem more intent on shooting the messenger than on actually listening
[03:32] <mneptok> mnaines: i'm about to go into Total Bastard Mode because of lack of nicotine. that will suck, because it usually ends with maco pelting me with rocks and garbage (which i deserve).
[03:33] <mnaines> Oh, I know how that is...I do that a lot when I go through caffeine withdrawl
[03:33] <mneptok> mnaines: take the issue up with Flannel down the road when you have had time to cogitate about our convo?
[03:33] <mnaines> Sure...
[03:33] <mneptok> rawk.
[03:33] <maco> mneptok: nuh uh!
[03:34] <mnaines> By the way, I've handled War Goddesses on PMS, so I'm used to handling people at their worst
[03:34] <maco> i have never pelted you with anything
[03:34]  * mneptok beeps maco's nose
[03:34] <maco> not even a frozen grape, my usual instrument of torment
[03:34] <mneptok> OK, smoke time.
[03:35] <mnaines> My usual instrument of torment is a running faucet...I love turning them on to just a trickle right when the person is at a point and time when they cannot get up to use the bathroom
[03:35] <mneptok> mnaines: we have a "no idle" policy in -ops. use "/whois Flannel" to figure out when he;s active.
[03:35] <mneptok> mnaines: i had War Godesses On PMS for the Gamecube. it was OK.
[03:35] <mnaines> It doesn't say when he's active...Just says he's "detached"
[03:36] <mneptok> no backstory, though.
[03:36] <mnaines> mneptok: By War Goddesses on PMS, I mean Dominatrix type women
[03:36] <mneptok> i had that game, too. the controller hurt my hands. a lot.
[03:36] <mnaines> Or the type who are more comfortable with a .44 mag in each hand than they are with bra
[03:37] <mneptok> oh, REAL women. they rock.
[03:37] <mnaines> Yeah...I can be around those women and not get shot at
[03:37] <mnaines> In fact, I'd be right there with them when they go into torture mode
[03:37] <mneptok> so then making up with Flannel should be easy
[03:38] <mnaines> Should be...But I don't ever count my chickens before they hatch
[03:39] <mneptok> OK, must smoke.
[03:39]  * mnaines hands mneptok a stogie
[03:40] <mneptok> take care, and be nice to Flannel. he tolerates me. there are precious few that do.
[03:40] <mnaines> Well, it looks like you just made a new friend
[03:40] <mnaines> You and I have something in common
[03:40] <mneptok> \o/
[03:41]  * mneptok heads out like a foetus
[03:42]  * mnaines likes smokers...The smoke keeps the annoying idiots away
[04:25] <elky> mnaines just gave a display of utter idiocy in -ot
[04:26] <MsMaco> idiocy raised to the 12th power
[04:28] <MsMaco> the rest of the channel didnt do much to dampen the flames
[04:29] <elky> didn't do much? didn't do anything.
[04:29] <MsMaco> ok so i get the Understatement Of The Year Award
[06:45] <Myrtti> do I want to read the backlog?
[06:46] <nalioth> Myrtti: only if you're suffering from insomnia
[06:46] <Myrtti> nalioth: I just woke up and am dressing for work
[06:47] <nalioth> Myrtti: ah, welcome to the new day, then  :)
[07:07] <elky> the office intarwebs has been shaped... oh yay.
[07:08] <Flannel> What shape?
[07:08] <jussi01> elky: hahahaha... I still cant beleive australia still has download limits, they are so 90's
[07:49] <Flannel> gah.  So much noise in there.
[07:50] <indus> hello
[07:51] <Flannel> Hi indus, how can we help you today?
[07:52] <indus> brb
[07:52] <Myrtti> I want to slap them all
[07:52] <Flannel> I come back from getting a snack, and have to deal with this before I get to enjoy it.  Makes me unhappy.
[08:01]  * nalioth is now operating an OpenID server
[08:34] <indus> hi
[08:36] <indus> 'do what i say or you will be rebanned' , what is with that? is the ops above users?
[08:36] <indus> please use better statements when having some issue with a user/users
[08:36] <indus> or of course can be called to ubuntu-ops for 'discussion'
[08:36] <indus> thank you
[08:37] <Myrtti> FINE
[08:50]  * nalioth blinks
[09:45] <ikonia> I'm done with indus and his attitude
[11:54] <indus> hi
[11:55] <indus> who is responsible for reviewing irc guidelines? anyone please
[11:58] <Pricey> indus: The Ubuntu IRC Council maintain them, of which I am a member.
[11:58] <indus> hello
[11:59] <indus> how do i get a  message across to them
[11:59] <indus> i mean is there a irc council room?
[11:59] <indus> btw,are you pricechild from the forums?
[12:00] <Pricey> indus: I am indeed. You could leave it here, or if you'd prefer it remained private you can drop it into #ubuntu-irc-council or email us at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:01] <indus> ok,do all ops here have acess to that email? or only council members
[12:01] <Pricey> indus: Only Council members. You could even just PM me.
[12:02] <indus> ok thank you,but i prefer emails ,its more professional.
[12:02] <indus> iam just going to join that room to check it out for a few min.is that ok?
[12:03] <Myrtti> what room?
[12:03] <Myrtti> oh, that
[12:03]  * Myrtti goes to get tea
[12:04] <indus> Pricey: are you no longer  forum staff now?
[12:05] <indus> anyways,i leave now,can expect a mail from me soon
[12:05] <indus> Myrtti: enjoy your tea
[12:08] <Pricey> ikonia: nope, still on there.
[12:09] <Myrtti> Pricey: fail
[12:10] <Pricey> Myrtti: his fault for having a similar name. (ik i mean)
[12:29] <ikonia> Pricey: bope what's on where?
[12:31] <Flannel> ikonia: He's still forum staff
[12:32] <ikonia> oh, repsonding to indus
[13:47] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[14:25] <dejuren> i have no voice, rigth?
[14:25] <dejuren> ups...
[14:26] <nalioth> dejuren: can we help you?
[14:26] <dejuren> hi all, who is on the IRC council now?
[14:27] <nalioth> what did you need, dejuren ?
[14:28] <dejuren> nalioth: nothing special, just asking, as I already brake the scilance...
[14:28] <dejuren> s/brake/broke/
[14:28] <Myrtti> so what brought you here?
[14:29] <gnomefreak> did anyone grab gibmich* about his hostmask?
[14:30] <dejuren> there was an artefact in #ubuntu-bg channel carring seveas as op, since he was member of the council, we met and that was the way he pointed me to find hwa are the new members
[14:30] <ikonia> gnomefreak: no signed out
[14:30] <gnomefreak> ikonia: ok
[14:36] <ikonia> dejuren: is there anything you actaully need/want from the council ?
[14:37] <dejuren> ikonia: no, just establishing a contact...
[14:38] <ikonia> dejuren: well the coucil members are Pici elky nalioth Pricey jussi01 if you need anything from them you can contact them or check out more info on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil
[14:39] <dejuren> ikonia: tks... going out now
[14:39] <ikonia> no problem
[14:39] <ikonia> hope that helps
[14:41] <Myrtti> in general loco channel issues are handled in #ubuntu-irc
[14:41] <dejuren> ikonia: yes, tks again
[14:41] <dejuren> nice day everyone
[15:09]  * mneptok blinks
[15:09] <mneptok> wow! dejuren!
[15:09] <mneptok> (one of my former colleagues @canonical.com)
[15:14] <mneptok> jussi01: 08:14 -!- ftab<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu
[15:14] <mneptok> :)
[15:15] <jussi01> mneptok: so long as he doesnt act up I really dont mind.
[15:16]  * mneptok doesn't, either
[15:16] <mneptok> but his "i'm not using your channels any more" lasted a full 36 hours. :)
[16:11] <ikonia> ?
[16:14] <mneptok> ikonia: problematic user from a day or so ago
[16:15] <ikonia> or really, and he's ex-canonical ?
[16:16] <mneptok> ikonia: AFAIK, dejuren is stil with Canonical
[16:16]  * mneptok is not
[16:16] <ikonia> how dissapointing that a canonical employee can't behave
[16:16] <mneptok> "can't behave?"
[16:16] <ikonia> you said he was a problem user
[16:17] <mneptok> no, i said ftab was
[16:17] <ikonia> ooooooh
[16:17] <ikonia> oh, well that's obvious
[16:17] <mneptok> ikonia: i think you need a /dcc of a mug of genii's love :)
[16:17] <ikonia> it would appear that way
[16:18] <mneptok> (as if *I'M* fully awake)
[16:19]  * genii gets a highlight notice and shows up to hand ikonia a large mug of coffee, then disappear again...
[17:28] <genii> hm
[17:40] <topyli> hmm do we have any practice on how to react to advertising ##club-ubuntu on -ot?
[17:56] <jussi01> topyli: speak to, if they dont stop, ban.
[17:56] <jussi01> they should know better.
[17:58] <maco> will i guess who it was correctly on the first try?
[17:59] <jussi01> probably not
[17:59] <maco> you're right
[18:00] <topyli> jussi01: right
[18:00] <topyli> too late for this one though
[18:01] <spO> hi
[18:01] <jussi01> spO: hi
[18:01] <spO> cna you guys please unban me from #ubuntu , i was banned because i was trolling in #launchpad   .... however, the two channels are totally different
[18:01] <spO> it is overzealousness
[18:02] <jussi01> spO: 1 moment please
[18:03] <spO> instead of parting #launchpad and getting it off my favorites list of auto join , i fixed myself to get a ban from thta channell.... then i get banned from #ubuntu , but i was not fixing to part nor get banned from that channel
[18:04] <spO> either way, i did not disrupt nor troll in #ubuntu
[18:04] <spO> you might as well gline me if you want to use these ethics
[18:04] <spO> ie, go ahead and gline me
[18:05] <jussi01> spO: as I just said, 1 moment please.
[18:05] <spO> i'll be back later
[18:05] <spO> after the op who banned me might calm down or not use emotions in banning so much
[18:14] <mneptok> Flannel: meep?
[19:17] <topyli> !away > fader|lunch
[20:19] <Flannel> mneptok: Hmm?
[20:27] <mneptok> Flannel: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/08/28/%23ubuntu-ops.html
[20:27] <mneptok> Flannel: should take you ~15m to read
[20:27] <Flannel> Is that last night with mnaines?
[20:28] <mneptok> yessah
[20:29] <mneptok> i am recommending no specific action. this is purely FYI.
[20:29] <Flannel> Yeah, I read it last night
[20:31] <ikonia> I still will not accept his actions for a removal of the ban in #ubuntu
[20:31] <ikonia> he STILL thinks he's right and flannel is wrong
[20:34] <mneptok> well, Flannel *is* wrong.
[20:34] <mneptok> but being wrong in the head is a hard requirement for Ubuntu ops.
[20:34] <mneptok> so, we all fail.
[20:34] <Flannel> by definition!
[20:36] <mneptok> exaaaaaaactly :)
[20:37] <mneptok> Flannel: don't worry. i love you, man. and not in a creepy way. more in that "i'd like to lock you in my crawlspace and watch 'samurai jack' with you until you become old enough to eat," way.
[20:38] <Flannel> samurai jack is cancelled :(
[20:38] <mneptok> i have the DVDs right over here. there ya go ... through the trap door. that's right ...
[20:38] <Flannel> Also, Johnny Bravo is cancelled too.  And stopped being a "one man army" after the first season.
[21:06] <genii> I'm back and forth with work. losher and x404x just got a reminder from me in #u about being offtopic, looks like they may move to -ot hopefully
[21:06] <genii> Also my connection seems flakey
[21:10] <maco> topyli had a talk with him today
[21:11] <maco> explaining that the things he was saying in -ot are o4o and...well actually he had o4o explained to him 2 days ago according to my scrollback...
[21:11] <maco> things he was saying yesterday night
[21:11] <maco> (when elky and i were annoyed)
[21:12] <genii> They might need an eye on them, at any rate. I can't properly do it right now
[21:13] <maco> yeah i see them -ot and am going "er....?"
[21:13] <maco> something about spam and porn and downloading. i dont know whats going on
[21:23] <topyli> well i'm certainly annoyed
[21:23] <nickspoon> Pourquoi, monsieur topyli?
[21:23] <topyli> probably too much so to make desicions about this
[21:23] <topyli> nickspoon: certainly not because of my favorite nickspoon!
[21:24] <nickspoon> Aw, aren't you the sweetest thing?
[21:24] <topyli> yeah, arn't i
[21:29] <genii_> Hm
[21:34] <genii-around> Bleh. Looks like jussi01.com is up/down right now
[21:34] <MsMaco> aye
[21:35] <MsMaco> which is why im over here
[21:35]  * genii-around commiserates
[21:36] <genii-around> Back up...back down...bah back up...back down....
[21:37]  * genii-around makes coffee
[21:52] <mnaines> ok...Its Friday...You guys agreed to talk about my ban today
[21:57] <Seeker`> who agreed to talk to you?
[21:57] <topyli> mnaines: who did?
[21:57] <mnaines> Flannel
[21:57] <mnaines> He's the one who banned me
[21:58] <topyli> right
[21:58] <topyli> doesn't seem to be active right now
[21:59] <mnaines> You know the rules about idlers
[22:00] <topyli> what about them?
[22:00] <mnaines> Why don't they apply in this case?
[22:00] <topyli> this is the ops' working room. everyone's pretty much supposed to be here
[22:00] <mnaines> They apply the same to the ops as they do to ordinary users
[22:01] <topyli> for example, even if Flannel is away right now, he will note that he's been called
[22:01] <mnaines> I don't care.  You guys are the ones who are supposed to be setting the example.  The rules apply to you guys the same way they apply to the rest of us
[22:01] <Pricey> mnaines: That is not true.
[22:02] <Pricey> mnaines: Please read the wording of the /topic
[22:02] <MsMaco> if he didnt stay here when afk, how would he know you were looking for him?
[22:02] <topyli> mnaines: the rules are: ops stay on the ops channel. others come in when they have business with ops
[22:02] <mnaines> Pricey: Right up there in the bold print at the top of the screen it says: "We reserve the right to remove idlers from the channel"
[22:02] <Pricey> mnaines: Indeed.
[22:03] <Pricey> mnaines: It does not say. "We will remove idlers from the channel"
[22:03] <mnaines> You remove idle users but not idle ops...Sounds mighty close to hypocrisy to me
[22:04] <MsMaco> its the difference between "will" and "may"
[22:04] <MsMaco> the topic refers to "may"
[22:04]  * Flannel is back!
[22:04] <Flannel> What'd I miss?
[22:04] <topyli> mnaines: study this in your heart
[22:04] <topyli> Flannel: the best part!
[22:04] <mnaines> MsMaco: Ops don't get any special treatment just because they're ops...
[22:04] <Myrtti> er, this is ops channel
[22:05] <Myrtti> so yes, yes they do
[22:05] <Pricey> mnaines: They do. This is an ops channel and so they idle here.
[22:05] <Flannel> mnaines: If the ops weren't in the ops channel, what would the purpose of the ops channel be?
[22:05] <topyli> mnaines: ops get much worse treatment than anyone else. now get to your point
[22:05] <Flannel> (ie a way to contact them reliably)
[22:05] <mnaines> Flannel, my point is, you were AFK, so I was questioning the "we reserve the right to remove idlers from this room" rule you guys have
[22:05] <Myrtti> *boggle*
[22:05] <Pricey> mnaines: To speak on behalf of the IRC Council, we have a policy in this channel, and I will not be using it to remove Flannel for being inactive.
[22:06] <Myrtti> so we have the right to remove people, which we may, or may not do
[22:06] <Pricey> mnaines: It seems Flannel is now aroudn to speak to you about your ban. I hope everyone will let that now happen.
[22:06] <mnaines> Pricey: Since when did that policy give you the right NOT to police each other?
[22:06] <Pricey> mnaines: Would you like to discuss this in PM? I don't want it to detract from your intended conversation with Flannel.
[22:08] <Pricey> mnaines: Which, by the way, I will be watching. And if Flannel does require 'policing' as you put it, I will.
[22:13] <mnaines> Flannel, you still here?
[22:14] <Flannel> mnaines: Indeed
[22:15] <Flannel> I was just being patient if you were having a conversation with Pricey or whatnot
[22:15] <mnaines> I was in IM...He helped me understand one of the guidelines better
[22:16] <Myrtti> hooray for Pricey
[22:18] <mnaines> Anyway, Flannel, you told me to wait until today to talk about the ban...Now, why don't we go over what it will take to get the ban removed
[22:22] <Flannel> In general, bans are put in place because someone is being disruptive.  They're removed when that disruption is unlikely to happen again.
[22:23] <mnaines> My problem is people being directed to a room that isn't active enough that they will get the help they need
[22:24] <mnaines> That's the whole reason I questioned the ops in the first place...Because someone said that they tried other rooms and those rooms were dead or dying and they were still redirected to other rooms
[22:25] <Flannel> mnaines: But do you understand how we can't take that stance? It would render #ubuntu completely unhelpful
[22:26] <mnaines> Well, I didn't know if you guys check the activity in the rooms before you direct people to them...That was my mistake, and why I questioned you guys
[22:27] <Flannel> mnaines: In general they tend to be the official support channels for the various projects, why should we question their activity?
[22:27] <Flannel> Yes, some times of day the room may be dead, but that's true of every project.  There are some times of day in #ubuntu you can't get support for X or Y, because no one's active at that time that knows about it
[22:28] <mnaines> That's something I've always been afraid of...I try to help any way I can just to minimize the impact of such situations
[22:29] <Flannel> Afraid of what?  There's nothing wrong with that situation.
[22:29] <Flannel> You state your question succinctly and with enough information, and then wait for someone to wake up and answer it.  (at least, in the "dead" channels)
[22:29] <mnaines> Its hard to tell who is a corporate user and who is a home user, and a majority of the corporate users, the longer they wait for help on a problem, the more money their company loses
[22:29] <Flannel> someone will wake up and answer it
[22:30] <Flannel> Adding to the noise in #ubuntu doesn't help anyone though.
[22:30] <Flannel> We are not the catchall for support
[22:30] <mnaines> Its similar setup to a call center, and I've never worked in a call center, nor do I want to work in one
[22:31] <Flannel> If I remember correctly, it was a FreeBSD person, people in #ubuntu *dont* know how FreeBSD works, so it's likely they'll have to wait as long, if not longer, for someone to be able to help the.
[22:31] <mnaines> I think the issue that got me banned was that guy who was trying to dual-boot Vista and Ubuntu
[22:31] <mnaines> I tried talking him out of Vista and that's when I was banne
[22:31] <mnaines> banned*
[22:32] <Flannel> You weren't being helpful, that's what got you banned.
[22:32] <Flannel> It had nothing to do with the fact that Vista was involved.
[22:32] <Flannel> or, Win7, or whatever it was.
[22:33] <Flannel> well, didn't get you banned, but contributed to it.
[22:33] <mnaines> Vista and Windows 7 are the same thing...Just that Microsoft slimmed down Vista and called the new version Windows 7 after too many people complained about how bloated Vista was
[22:35] <Flannel> That's not relevant to your ban, so lets just skip it
[22:35] <mnaines> ok
[22:36] <mnaines> The main thing is I'm new to IRC, so I'm not used to which rooms are open and which are not...
[22:37] <Flannel> "open"?
[22:37] <topyli> every channel has a topic mnaines. observe it. that's how irc works
[22:37] <mnaines> Active
[22:37] <Flannel> I'm not sure how activity is really relevant to this discussion either
[22:38] <mnaines> Basically my point is, I wouldn't know which rooms to direct a person to because I'm new to IRC...And I don't like just sitting around and watching because of my inexperience
[22:39] <Flannel> The best way to get experience is to observe.  You're not the only person in the room, so you don't need to feel responsible to respond to everyone
[22:39] <Flannel> Someone who *can* help the person (either through support, or redirection) will step in and do so
[22:39] <mnaines> I learn best by getting my hands dirty...
[22:40] <mnaines> I've never been the type who learns from lectures...I learn from doing, not watching or listening
[22:40] <Flannel> If you do that in #ubuntu, you'll just give people bad advice or cause confusion
[22:41] <mnaines> That's why I rely on my own experiences when I give help...If I don't have experience in something, I don't give help
[22:41] <Flannel> Except you weren't giving help with the windows guy, you were just ranting and adding noise to the channel
[22:42] <topyli> mnaines: you have a good idea there. if you don't have experience in something, you don't help in that specific area
[22:42] <Flannel> We already discussed this a few days ago, you were told to come back today.
[22:42] <topyli> in others you do, you help there
[22:42] <mnaines> Sometimes my "I don't want to see you make the same mistakes I did" mentality kicks in, but 90% of the time, it kicks in at the wrong times
[22:43] <Flannel> For all you know, he already had Vista and wanted to install Ubuntu.  All your rant was doing was turning him off to the whole idea.
[22:44] <ikonia> not this again
[22:44] <mnaines> ikonia, knock it off.  You are not a part of this conversation, so keep your mouth shut and quit your belly-aching
[22:44] <Pricey> mnaines: Please reread what you just said.
[22:44] <Pricey> ikonia, topyli, please allow Flannel this conversation.
[22:45] <ikonia> I won't be interupting
[22:45] <ikonia> I won't be spoken to like that though
[22:46] <topyli> right, sorry
[22:46] <ikonia> Flannel: I strongly suggest leaving the ban in place as it's clear this person still has an attitude problem. Over to you.
[22:46] <mnaines> Well, ikonia, you were the one who jumped into the middle of the conversation then complained about what was being said.  Sorry for being rude, but I really don't like whiners
[22:48] <mnaines> The simple solution would have been to ask what the conversation was about then once you got the answer you could have expressed your opinion on the matter
[22:49] <Flannel> Alright, back on track.
[22:49] <mnaines> Yes...I am excusing the interruption now that I have spoken my mind
[22:50] <Flannel> mnaines: Do you see where your reaction to him wanting to dual boot became a problem though?
[22:51] <mnaines> Yes, I do...I wasn't given the full information on what his problem was...I let my hatred of Vista take over
[22:52] <Flannel> And worse, you didn't stop when you were asked to
[22:53] <mnaines> That was another thing I need to learn to control...Knowing when to keep my mouth shut...I know everyone has problems with that on certain days
[22:53] <Flannel> Which is really the core of the matter, since everyone wanders offtopic at some point or another and needs a gentle nudging back
[22:54] <mnaines> Especially after really stressful days...Self-discipline gets harder to do as your stress level goes up
[22:55] <Flannel> You should take it upon yourself to just not IRC on those days
[22:56] <mnaines> Those days, my stress reliever is video games, but IRL, my lazy stepfather calls me down to do something for him every few minutes, so the stress level doesn't go down as quickly as I would like
[22:56] <Flannel> We all have things outside of IRC we need to deal with.  You just need to make sure you deal with them responsibly.
[22:56] <Pricey> Hi stefg, can I help you?
[22:57] <mnaines> Of course, but its his house, his rules...If I don't like his rules, my only option is to leave, and I have no money nor do I have any place to go, so I'm stuck here
[22:57] <stefg> please someone kick Admin_
[22:57] <maco> stefg: which channel?
[22:57] <Flannel> stefg: #u
[22:57] <ikonia> I'm watching him
[22:57] <Flannel> er, maco
[22:57] <stefg> in #ubuntu .. DCC  the channel with something looking malware-ish
[22:57] <ikonia> stefg: all sorted
[22:57] <stefg> thx
[22:58] <mnaines> ikonia: A guy with the same screen name has been attacking online gaming servers, too...
[22:58] <mnaines> The police were called on the guy once already
[22:58] <ikonia> that's not for this channel please
[22:58] <Myrtti> mnaines: that screen name is far from unique
[22:58] <Flannel> mnaines: How is that relevant?
[22:59] <mnaines> Flannel, its not...I was just informing him of that in case it turns out to be the same person...That way you guys would know what measures have already been taken
[23:02] <mnaines> I'm pretty sure you guys would want to know if there's a malicious user on the prowl, so that's why I said that
[23:03] <Myrtti> back to issue at hand?
[23:03] <mnaines> Very well
[23:07] <mnaines> Anyway, most of my behavior issues come from stress...My self control usually goes off a cliff if I've had too much caffeine or if I get stressed out
[23:08] <mnaines> But then again, I think that happens to everyone
[23:08] <mnaines> I'm working on changing that, but its a time consuming and challenging process
[23:09] <Flannel> mnaines: It does, and they "fix" it by just excusing themselves from IRC when it's a bad idea.
[23:10] <topyli> nobody is interested in why someone misbehaves on irc. just don't. go for a walk
[23:12] <mnaines> Flannel, the other thing I am trying to "fix" is knowing when to keep my mouth shut and stop spontaneously jumping into the middle of conversations when I don't have all the information
[23:12] <mnaines> I do that a lot IRL, too
[23:12] <Flannel> mnaines: It's up to you to keep yourself in line, and it's our responsibility to make sure people do that (and force them to if they can't do it themselves).
[23:12] <mnaines> Hey...I'm working on it...But as I said, its time consuming and challenging...
[23:13] <mnaines> I know its something I need to do IRL, though
[23:13] <Flannel> mnaines: If you think you can police yourself, and won't go off the deep end if you need help from us in the future (like you did a few days ago), I'd consider giving you the benefit of the doubt and removing the ban.
[23:14] <mnaines> I'm trying to police myself...Its a bumpy road for anyone my age, but I'm trying my best
[23:15] <Flannel> mnaines: And do you think you'd react better in the future if we need to step in and help?
[23:16] <mnaines> I wouldn't mind you guys helping...Just don't try to stress me out anymore than I already am at the time
[23:18] <mnaines> Best way to help is just to give me time to vent...Usually once I vent, my stress level goes back down and I return to normal
[23:18] <Flannel> No one tries to stress you out; we just try to keep the channels usable for everyone.
[23:18] <topyli> mnaines: no. that's not acceptible
[23:18] <Flannel> mnaines: That's why we suggested you come back in a few days, which, I might add, you didn't really follow.
[23:18] <mnaines> Because it doesn't take that long for me to calm down
[23:18] <Flannel> mnaines: but "venting" doesn't mean go to a different channel and act rudely
[23:19] <mnaines> Usually when I have to vent, letting me vent for an hour or so is enough
[23:19] <Flannel> mnaines: It's a safe period of time to ensure you've had a chance to think about stuff.
[23:19] <topyli> you never "vent" on ubuntu channels
[23:20] <mnaines> topyli: If there was a room for people to vent their stress, I would use it when I need to
[23:20] <maco> make one?
[23:20] <maco> ##venting?
[23:20] <Flannel> or, use real life.
[23:21] <maco> i find sitting down with a good novel is a nice way to relax
[23:21] <mnaines> Speaking of RL, I have to go get dinner, so I'll come back in and finish this once I'm back home
[23:21] <Mez> Using real life for relieving stress is good.. My advice... step away from the computer, go for a walk.. (or, normally in my case, a smoke) and come back later :D
[23:22] <topyli> mnaines: the thing is, we're concerned about ubuntu channels. if you bother them, and people are bothered, they will ask you to stop or change the subject. please do so. or go jogging or watch a movie
[23:22] <maco> he's gone
[23:22] <topyli> the channels are not for that
[23:22] <topyli> oh my masterpiece is lost! :)
[23:22] <genii-around> Hehe topyli
[23:25] <topyli> Flannel: i salute the Patient One
[23:27] <Flannel> Would've been nice to make some more progress, but I suppose that's what once-home is for.
[23:27] <Flannel> Alright, I'm going to go play with circuit breakers.  I'll be back in a smidge hopefully.
[23:28] <Mez> -!- Flannel [n=flannel@ubuntu/member/flannel] has disconnected ["Oops, wrong breaker"]
[23:28] <Flannel> No, that's why I'm leaving, because I've gotta power off my server.
[23:29] <Mez> this reminds me of one of the "Darwin Awards"
[23:31] <Mez> http://www.nndb.com/people/523/000095238/
[23:40] <topyli> we used to just kick the poles right where the maintenance cover is. you kick there, the light goes out from that pole for about 5min
[23:40] <topyli> not sure if they still do, this was in the 70s
[23:41] <topyli> so we ran around the block and put out all the lights and said woohoo it's dark
[23:41] <topyli> don't ask me why, we were 5 to 8 or so
[23:42]  * genii-around sips
[23:46] <topyli> hmm haven't tried for about 30 years, i'm sort of curious whether or not they still go out if you give them a good kick right there :)
[23:54] <mnaines> ok...I am back.  Had boneless honey barbecue wings from Wendy's for dinner


[05:36] <jibel> Good morning
[05:37] <duflu> Morning jibel
[05:37] <jibel> Hi duflu
[06:40] <callmepk> good afternoon
[06:40] <callmepk>  and hi jibel duflu
[06:47] <bittin> hello
[06:49] <didrocks> hey bittin
[06:50] <callmepk> hi bittin didrocks
[06:52] <jibel> Salut callmepk bittin didrocks
[06:53] <didrocks> hey callmepk, jibel
[07:09] <duflu> Hi callmepk, bittin, didrocks
[07:15] <didrocks> hey duflu
[07:16] <seb128> goood morning desktopers
[07:17] <didrocks> hey seb128
[07:17] <callmepk> hi seb128
[07:17] <seb128> hey didrocks, callmepk, duflu , how are you?
[07:17] <duflu> seb128, alright, you?
[07:17] <jibel> salut seb128
[07:18] <seb128> lut jibel
[07:18] <seb128> duflu, not fully awake yet but working on it ;-)
[07:18] <seb128> I was up at 6:30 again, just was in busy time until now, I can finally sit down and have a coffee
[07:19] <seb128> jamesh, Laney, kenvandine: weekly discourse reminder
[07:19] <jamesh> seb128: thanks
[07:20] <seb128> hey jamesh ;-)
[07:20] <callmepk> seb128 still feeling dizzy from the pre-vaccine body checkup... hope you feel more awake with coffee
[07:20] <seb128> thx
[07:21] <seb128> what sort of checkup do they do exactly?
[07:22] <jamesh> hi seb128
[07:23] <didrocks> hey seb128
[07:25] <seb128> callmepk, you saw my review comments for ubuntu-wsl-integration?
[07:27] <callmepk> seb128 Yep, currently working on it according to your review
[07:31] <callmepk> Also seb128 , for the license, the debian/wsl-integration.sh originally come from wslu which is under GPLv3+. Should I use GPLv3 in this case?
[07:37] <seb128> callmepk, maybe check with Ken to make sure, you coul still make our source files GPLv3 I think
[07:38] <callmepk> Gotcha seb128
[08:00] <Laney>  moin
[08:03] <didrocks> hey Laney
[08:04] <seb128> hey Laney, how are you? did you have a great extended weekend? ;-)
[08:04] <Laney> hi didrocks seb128
[08:05] <Laney> well, first day back inside a pub so that was nice
[08:05] <Laney> but prior to that I got super rained on /o\
[08:05] <Laney> how's it going there?
[08:06] <seb128> doing alright, navigating between sun and rains
[08:07] <seb128> today is meetings day here so not that the weather matters much right?
[08:08] <seb128> Laney, I tried to set up a dashboard for version, https://ubuntu-release.kpi.ubuntu.com/d/iNTp0ejMk/versions?orgId=1 ... any idea why the legend includes no number? the data seems fine since the graphs are at the right values it seems
[08:10] <Laney> hmm
[08:10] <Laney> I dunno, and when I go to edit the panel it's blank
[08:10] <seb128> by legend I means the mouseover
[08:10] <seb128> I probably did something stupid but I don't understand what
[08:19] <duflu> Hi Laney
[08:19] <marcustomlinson> morning jibel duflu callmepk bittin didrocks seb128 jamesh Laney
[08:20] <duflu> Morning marcustomlinson
[08:20] <seb128> hey marcustomlinson, how is it going today?
[08:24] <didrocks> hey marcustomlinson
[08:50] <seb128> Laney, k, searching online I think the grafana issue is because those numbers are strings, I will submit a fix to the collector to change them to int
[08:50] <Laney> ah
[08:51] <Laney> I should have noticed that, sorry
[08:51] <Laney> we should wipe the data when fixing that
[08:53] <Laney> can we have a test for this ... hmm ...
[08:57] <jibel> Hi marcustomlinson Laney
[09:04] <Laney> hey duflu marcustomlinson jibel !
[09:08] <callmepk> hi marcustomlinson
[09:41] <seb128> Laney, k, fix up as https://github.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-release-metrics/pull/17 now
[09:41] <ubot3> Pull 17 in ubuntu/ubuntu-release-metrics "use int values in the versions collector" [Open]
[09:41] <gitbot> ubuntu issue (Pull request) 17 in ubuntu-release-metrics "use int values in the versions collector" [Open]
[09:45] <Laney> 👍
[09:47] <Laney> deleted the old data, looks better now
[09:47] <seb128> Laney, excellent! and yeah having some sort of test for type(count) != str would be nice, it's not the first time I do that error :-/
[09:48] <marcustomlinson> seb128: so sorry, I missed your question. going alright today thanks.
[09:48] <seb128> marcustomlinson, ;;-)
[10:20] <seb128> how does one debug riscv64 issues? we don't have cloud images for that arch right?
[10:22] <Laney> we do, and they work in qemu
[10:23] <Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RISC-V
[10:23] <Laney> well that's server images not cloud images but
[10:23] <Laney> seb128:
[10:23] <seb128> no openstack canonistack magic there?
[10:24] <Laney> nope
[10:24] <seb128> alright, thanks!
[10:24] <Laney> hope you enjoy s-l-o-w VMs!
[10:24] <seb128> lol
[10:25] <seb128> any recommendation on whether I want unmatched or unleashed?
[10:26]  * seb128 just wants to figure out why impish builds fail with ' libgladeui-2-13 : Depends: libgladeui-common (>= 3.38.2-3) but it is not going to be installed'
[10:33] <Laney> don't think it matters
[10:33] <seb128> slowwww it is to start indeed :-)
[10:36] <seb128> Laney, thanks, as usually great pro tip ;-)
[11:07] <seb128> shrug, so the riscv64 issues are because glade is failing tests but built on riscv64 since there are no build tests there :-/
[11:07] <seb128> one gicon related failure probably due to the new glib
[11:07] <seb128> and one gjs
[11:35] <seb128> Trevinho, could you check the glade test failure?
[11:35] <seb128> GLib-GIO-CRITICAL **: 12:53:50.227: g_file_new_for_commandline_arg: assertion 'arg != NULL' failed
[11:35] <seb128> the call is coming from libgjs according to gdb
[12:08] <Trevinho> seb128: ok
[12:08] <seb128> Trevinho, thanks
[14:08] <seb128> do we have some preferred utilities to write from scripts to IRC?
[14:08] <seb128> seems that's a topic where you have more options than you would like, no obvious choice
[14:27] <hellsworth> good morning desktopers
[14:37] <cpaelzer> didrocks999: seb128: meas -> llvm-12 in compoennt mismatches - is that something you are aware and planning to handle?
[14:54] <seb128> cpaelzer, we don't maintain llvm afaik
[14:54] <seb128> we are not handling that new version, maybe tjaalton is?
[15:04] <jibel> Good morning hellsworth
[15:04] <didrocks999> seb128:hey hellsworth
[15:04] <didrocks999> oupss, hellsworth :)
[15:20] <marcustomlinson> hey hellsworth
[15:53] <tjaalton> cpaelzer__: the new mesa migrated to llvm-12, yes
[16:56] <Trevinho> seb128: mh, I only see gfile issues in glade, or did I read wrong? at least one failure is related to that on gdb, maybe not finding the prpoer resource (need to check yet the detail)
[16:59] <Trevinho> ah ok in the other failure there's some gjs involvement
[17:00] <Trevinho> or well I still htink it's related to not finding the resources
[18:06] <Trevinho> btw... gjs one was easy, but the problematic is the GFileIcon one, don't know enough of it, I guess we should make the loader to use an actual file path or at least a "valid" one
[18:08] <Trevinho> bah ok got it
[18:08] <Trevinho> well not the nice solution but folllwing what others did already
[18:14] <seb128> Trevinho, hey again, sorry I was at diner. Great that you figured it out and sorry I should have been more explicit which test was failing because of gjs, but thanks for dealing with the other failure as well (I expected that one to be due to the new glib)
[21:17] <Trevinho> seb128: yeah I couldn't figure out what glib change causes it, but well..


[00:01] <dcordes> MrCurious: serial port ?
[00:02] <MrCurious> yes
[00:02] <MrCurious> a bluetooth serial port
[00:04] <MrCurious> http://www.satistronics.com/serial-port-bluetooth-module-masterslave-hc05_p2863.html
[00:04] <MrCurious> works fine with Mac
[00:07] <MrCurious> they are very nice modules for connecting serial devices wirelessly
[00:08] <MrCurious> like AVR's, MSP's
[00:09] <dcordes> do you think that's a problem specific to ubuntu arm on the device ?
[00:14] <MrCurious> well, i imagine first step would be checking the os for the os prescribed method of associating
[00:15] <MrCurious> then drop to the device to see if its wired wrong.
[00:15] <MrCurious> wouldn't you agree?
[00:20] <dcordes> MrCurious: I fear I am not following
[00:20] <MrCurious> i am saying wouldnt you look to how something is done in the os before declaring  the motherboard at fault?
[00:21] <MrCurious> in otherwords, until i learn how ubuntu would associate with a bluetooth serial device, there is no sense pointing fault at the hardware
[00:21] <MrCurious> if the answer is ubuntu has no concept of bluetooth then i can move on
[00:24] <MrCurious> dcordes: never mind, i think there is a language translation issue at play here, and i dont wish to frustrate you
[00:27] <dcordes> MrCurious: oh sorry, I didn't mean to say it is a hardware problem. let me restate: did you try that serial connection in a different environment ?
[00:28] <dcordes> MrCurious: or: did you ever have a working bluetooth connection on your pandora board in ubuntu ?
[00:28] <dcordes> (maybe something more trivial like blueooth hid device
[00:29] <MrCurious> the module has been tested working with mac osx
[00:29] <MrCurious> discoverable, pairable, and serial communications tested working
[00:30] <MrCurious> yes, so the only unknowns are ubuntu on pandaboard
[00:30] <MrCurious> all else tested previously working
[00:30] <MrCurious> apologies for not stating that or stating it clearer :) i am juggling too many things
[00:34]  * persia points at irclogs.ubuntu.com for logs of this channel
[00:34] <dcordes> persia: ok thanks
[00:34] <dcordes> persia: maybe orga can put a reference in the topic
[00:34] <persia> dcordes, I don't know where the bug needs to be filed, but my recommendation would be to dig through the library docs, and find out what is supposed to check the environment variable: make sure that is loaded.
[00:34] <dcordes> MrCurious: unfortunately I am not very familiar with bluetooth at all, just trying to check if you have a working test environemnt and are narrowing down the error
[00:35] <MrCurious> thats fine. i was just asking to see if anyone knew how to get the bluetooth associate with device dialog up
[00:35] <persia> MrCurious, I'm certain that ubuntu-11.04-preinstalled-netbook-armel+omap4.img.gz isn't corrupt, as I used it to install a panda :)
[00:35]  * MrCurious nudges someone to remove the 11.04 omap4 image, its broked
[00:36] <MrCurious> i tried it on multiple sd's
[00:36] <MrCurious> multiple machines to burn it, multiple procedures
[00:36] <persia> Did you check the checksums of your download?
[00:36] <persia> It really worked for me.
[00:36] <MrCurious> doesnt TCP guarantee error free transmission
[00:36] <dcordes> persia: nice
[00:36] <persia> Theoretically.  In practice, not so much.
[00:37] <dcordes> persia: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/main-snapshot/qapplication.html#setGraphicsSystem found this
[00:37] <MrCurious> i could try it again.
[00:37] <MrCurious> but it seems many are having issues
[00:37] <persia> dcordes, That looks like a good place to start.
[00:37] <MrCurious> from the mail lists
[00:37] <persia> As you like.  It worked for me.
[00:38] <dcordes> persia: worst case I could grep the unity-2d-* code for setGraphicsSystem and default to native
[00:38] <persia> dcordes, I very strongly disbelieve that the unity-2d-* code has anything to do with that: it's very likely to be something with Qt
[00:40] <persia> I may be wrong though :)
[00:40] <dcordes> persia: the thing that makes be believe they should take the QT_GRAPHICSSYSTEM env var is that they do read the -graphicssystem switch
[00:41] <MrCurious> persia: while i am re-downloading it, do you by chance have any experience with bluetooth devices in ubuntu :)
[00:41] <persia> Do you think that is being done by unoty-2d, or automatically because unity-2d instantiates qapplication?
[00:41] <dcordes> e.g. "unity-2d-launcher -graphicssystem=native" will give me native graphicssystem while "QT_GRAPHICSSYSTEM=native unity-2d-laucnerh" will not
[00:41] <persia> MrCurious, Far too much, sadly.  I have no idea if the bluetooth device the panda claims to have works (I think there's no antenna, and I haven't played with it).
[00:42] <MrCurious> it has a onboard ceramic
[00:42] <MrCurious> i can turn on bluetooth
[00:43] <MrCurious> but i dont know where to go to get the list of bluetooth devices to pair with
[00:43] <persia> Use any of the bluetooth management tools.  What's your environment?
[00:44] <persia> If it's the netbook environment you're currently downloading, you'll get a bluetooth indicator when bluetooth is available, and can launch the discovery widgets from there.
[00:44] <dcordes> persia: I don't know. I will download the code
[00:44] <persia> dcordes, Makes sense.  Someone might have overridden the default to force 2D, although that seems unfortunate to me.
[00:45] <persia> dcordes, But if you don't find it, don't be discouraged: it may be something about how qapplication is instantiated, etc.
[00:45] <dcordes> persia: not sure what qapplication is
[00:45] <dcordes> persia: I will just stupidly grep for the setGraphicsSystem
[00:46] <persia> QApplication: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/main-snapshot/qapplication.html : the parent class for most Qt applications.
[00:46] <persia> (you may already have this page open)
[00:47] <dcordes> ah right :)
[00:54] <dcordes> persia: why do you think it's unfortunate ?
[00:54] <dcordes> persia: at least they had a reason for it :
[00:54] <dcordes>     /* Forcing graphics system to 'raster' instead of the default 'native'
[00:54] <dcordes>        which on X11 is 'XRender'.
[00:54] <dcordes>        'XRender' defaults to using a TrueColor visual. We do _not_ mimick that
[00:54] <dcordes>        behaviour with 'raster' by calling QApplication::setColorSpec because
[00:54] <dcordes>        of a bug where black rectangular artifacts were appearing randomly:
[00:55] <persia> That would be unfortunate because of a choice to work around a bug rather than fixing it.
[00:56] <dcordes> oh that makes sense
[00:56] <persia> The more so because it causes other problems (like the one you are experiencing)
[00:56] <dcordes> well it seems they fixed that bug already because running with the native works just fine on my device
[00:56] <persia> We have no idea.  There's no documentation of the bug, nor the environment in which it was produced.
[00:57] <dcordes> maybe I should let them know via https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-2d/+bug/734143
[00:57] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 734143 in unity-2d "Black rectangular artifacts appearing when opening a few launcher contextual menus" [High,Fix released]
[00:57] <dcordes> the url is from above comment
[00:57] <persia> Oh, there was a URL!  Excellent.  That's doing it right.
[00:58] <dcordes> status: In Progress → Fix Committed
[00:58] <persia> I'd recommend getting someone to try it on a macbook pro 7.1 with -gtgraphicssystem=native
[00:58] <persia> Maybe it's something unique to that hardware, or something in that render path, etc.
[00:58] <dcordes> I wonder if by fix fboucault means the default raster
[00:59] <persia> The "fix" is http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~fboucault/unity-2d/dont_set_colorspec/revision/447
[01:00] <dcordes> ok
[01:00] <persia> The missing part is the investigation of the render path on the hardware showing the bug to find the underlying bug.
[01:00] <dcordes> so what about s/raster/native/ ?
[01:00] <persia> So, unity-2d is "fixed" with the workaround.
[01:00] <persia> *but* the underlying bug still remains, and needs investigation.
[01:00] <persia> If that is fixed, the workaround may be removed from unity-2d
[01:00] <persia> Which then solves your issue.
[01:01] <persia> I strongly suspect that use of "native" on the hardware reported in 734143 will continue to show the issue.
[01:01] <dcordes> ok
[01:01] <persia> So it's not safe to just randomly assign it to "native", unless you want to carry a fork for some time.
[01:02] <persia> Depends on your goal, really.  If you want Ubuntu 11.10 to just work on your device, you'll want to fix the issue with the MacBook Pro.
[01:02] <persia> If you want Ubuntu 11.04 to work on your device *now*, you'll fork the code.
[01:03] <persia> (yes, fixing a MacBook Pro to help make an ARM handheld work better seems counter-intuitive, but it's all in the spirit of collaboration :) )
[01:03] <dcordes> persia: my suggestion: switch back to native and work around on the macbook pro. according to bill filler, unity-2d is supposed to provide support for devices with no hardware accelerated graphics, especially ARM devices
[01:03] <persia> Why not just fix the macbook pro issue?
[01:04] <persia> Then nobody needs any workarounds.
[01:04] <dcordes> that would be best
[01:05] <persia> I'd probably start by finding someone with the hardware, and having them test (we know kaleo has such an environment: others may).
[01:05] <dcordes> a) I don't have a macbook b) I have the impression that I have the smaller lobby, with only one person reporting raster problems.
[01:05] <dcordes> my two issues with that
[01:05] <dcordes> which forbid moving the process on
[01:05] <persia> Try to make a simpler test-case, which can then be given to the X team, who may be able to sort the rendering path issue.
[01:06] <persia> a) doesn't matter: there are lots of other people with the hardware.  Just find one.
[01:06] <persia> b) Who cares if it's just you reporting an issue: 734143 was also just one person.
[01:06] <dcordes> if I prepare such a well working natty image for easy install t housands will download it in short time
[01:06] <dcordes> and use it on that device
[01:07] <persia> That's not interesting in terms of bugfixing (although interesting in other ways).
[01:07] <persia> What's interesting in terms of bugfixing is the investigation of the issue.
[01:08] <persia> So, you'll want to find someone with the hardware (I gave you one name: randomly asking in #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-testers will probably get you some more)
[01:08] <persia> Then you'll want to work with them to find out precisely when the black rectangles occur
[01:08] <persia> Then you'll want to prepare a minimal program that generates the black rectangles
[01:08] <persia> Then you'll want to submit that to the rendering folk (as a new bug), who will likely sort it.
[01:08] <dcordes> ok
[01:09] <dcordes> maybe the potential testers can even help a bit with that
[01:09] <persia> If Kaleo has time to help, he'll probably be glad to help make the minimal program (he's the reporter of 734143)
[01:09] <dcordes> I am not a good programmer :)
[01:09] <persia> Yet :)
[01:09] <MrCurious> any idea which device would be the bluetooth radio?
[01:10] <persia> But seriously, 99% of this is just a matter of tracking down who can reproduce, and who understands the rendering path, and getting them to discuss/test the issue.
[01:11] <persia> MrCurious, When you say "which device", what do you mean? (as I doubt answering with the chip model will help you)
[01:11] <MrCurious> trying to get a lead on the bluetooth modem. working with hcitool now
[01:12] <MrCurious> trying to give myself a bluetooth clue
[01:12] <MrCurious> its not going as fast as i would like :(
[01:12] <persia> hcitool is *very* low level.
[01:12] <persia> (and incredibly hard to use, in my experience)
[01:12] <persia> What's your high-level goal?
[01:12] <MrCurious> got a better tool that i can explore
[01:12] <MrCurious> want to see devices that i can pair with (for the purpose of a serial port)
[01:13] <MrCurious> i have tested bluetooth serial port modules
[01:13] <MrCurious> work with mac
[01:13] <MrCurious> wanting to get them working with linux now
[01:13] <dcordes> persia: I see. So the problem is basically that the workaround situation satisfies most and potential problems are not being noticed
[01:13] <persia> dcordes, That's my opinion, yes.
[01:14] <persia> dcordes, And further that you've exposed one of the problems, so they aren't just "potential"
[01:14] <persia> MrCurious, So, if you boot to the desktop, do you have a bluetooth icon on the indicator?
[01:14] <dcordes> persia: Ok then, thanks a lot
[01:15] <MrCurious> yes
[01:15] <MrCurious> currently it shows as turned on
[01:16] <MrCurious> i know teh mac address of the serial port bluetooth device 20:11:02:17:10:97
[01:16] <persia> OK.  Now, choose "Set up new device..."
[01:16] <MrCurious> where do i find set up new device?
[01:16] <persia> Should be in the indicator menu
[01:16] <dcordes> persia: hope I can catch kaleo around tomorrow. need to take a nap now. good night !
[01:16] <MrCurious> it has turn off, and preferences
[01:16] <MrCurious> preferences has a recieve files button
[01:16] <MrCurious> and a big turn on button
[01:17] <persia> Press the "Turn on" button
[01:17] <MrCurious> i did
[01:17] <MrCurious> the bluetooth  drop down remains un changed
[01:17] <persia> Hrm.  For me, the indicator menu has "Set up new device..." and the preferences window has a "Set up new device..." button.
[01:18] <persia> You're running Ubuntu 11.04?
[01:18] <MrCurious> 10.10 upgraded to 11.04
[01:18] <persia> That shouldn't make a difference.
[01:18] <MrCurious> thinking its time to do the re-download, re-install thing
[01:18] <persia> That's typically pointless, unless you want to change filesystems for some reason.
[01:18] <persia> If it's not pointless, that's a bug.
[01:20] <persia> So, you're looking for something that looks like http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-bluetooth/stable/figures/bluetooth-properties.png.en
[01:20] <persia> Is this very different from the bluetooth preferences dialog you see?
[01:20] <persia> (ignore the language differences)
[01:20] <MrCurious> persia: this command similar to what you used? zcat ubuntu-11.04-preinstalled-netbook-armel+omap4.img.gz | dd of=/dev/sda bs=16M
[01:21] <persia> I verified the checksums, ran gunzip, and then (separately) ran `dd if=... of=/dev/sdg bs=4M`
[01:21] <persia> Shouldn't matter that much though.
[01:22] <persia> Did you make sure that /dev/sda is not mounted?
[01:23] <MrCurious> did NOW :D
[01:24] <MrCurious> could swear it wasnt mounted when i started
[01:24] <persia> The automounter is kinda aggressive :)
[01:24] <MrCurious> doing it on a chumby
[01:24] <MrCurious> because its stable-ish
[01:24] <MrCurious> and has a not-used sd slot
[01:25] <MrCurious> although since i switched to a USB SSD for rootfs, the panda has been rock solid
[01:25] <MrCurious> something about SD cards i just dont trust
[01:26] <persia> Unfortunately the panda cannot function without one
[01:26] <persia> (although one doesn't really need it post-boot, if one configures everything just so)
[01:27] <MrCurious> that i did, but then i turned the SD card into SWAP
[01:27] <MrCurious> seemed tolerable once there was no FS on it compeeting for bandwidth
[01:27] <persia> That will give it a nice short lifetime )
[01:27] <MrCurious> persia: this 16g 20mb/s card has offended me by constantly corrupting with the 11.04 image
[01:28] <MrCurious> persia: i might point out to you that the ubuntu image's have swap on the ssd enabled by default
[01:28] <MrCurious> so seems short lives are not a concern in these parts ;)
[01:28] <MrCurious> see the file in the root directory
[01:28] <MrCurious> SWAP.swap
[01:28] <MrCurious> and check your free, its turned on
[01:31] <persia> Oh, I know.  First thing I turn off.  The issue is that some folk want to be able to run with 256MB, which simply cannot work without swap: the swapfile was turned on to avoid OOM issues on first-boot.
[01:34] <MrCurious> ahhh
[01:34] <MrCurious> so in future, it will self-disable after resize?
[01:34] <persia> Not soon, no.
[01:35] <persia> It doesn't turn on until after resize.
[01:35] <MrCurious> thats what i mean
[01:35] <MrCurious> i think it stayed on well into first boot
[01:35] <MrCurious> possibly second boot
[01:35] <persia> And it's likely to remain until the vast majority of available devices work well without swap.
[01:35] <persia> It stays on forever unless manually disabled or removed.
[01:36] <MrCurious> i dont feel so bad about swapping to sd now :D
[01:36] <MrCurious> but i think i will move over to swapping to spinning disk soon
[01:37] <persia> That should get you expanded SD life.
[01:38] <persia> Although if you really want speed, you want to swap to battery-backed RAM or similar.
[01:38] <persia> (which is designed for the sort of random-access treatment swapping needs)
[01:40] <MrCurious> does battery backed ram exist?
[01:41] <persia> Yes.
[01:42] <persia> I haven't seen any in the shops in a couple years, but it used to be common with PATA and PCI interfaces.
[01:42] <MrCurious> pata...
[01:42] <persia> I suspect someone has put together some SATA or USB devices like this, although they may only be available by special order.
[01:44] <persia> Ah, The Acord ANS-9010 apparently goes up to 64GB.  You can't use this for real memory, but it makes for decent swap, if you have that sort of performance requirement (gamers, heavily-loaded servers, etc.)
[01:44] <MrCurious> for now, i have a 4gig CF spinning disk with a usb attachment
[01:44] <MrCurious> that will work for swap
[01:45] <MrCurious> hitachi 4g microdrive
[01:45] <persia> Depends on the disk.  Some of the early microdrives were *really* slow.
[01:45] <MrCurious> how about that instead. wee bit less expensive
[01:46] <persia> Oh, once Hitachi had the "microdrive" brand, most were fairly good.
[01:46] <MrCurious> thats the one i have
[01:47] <MrCurious> uave a virgin 11.04 image now
[01:48] <persia> And did you ever get the bluetooth dialog similar to the one I posted?
[01:49] <MrCurious> just getting ready to try the image
[01:49] <MrCurious> had to burn it first
[01:50] <MrCurious> seems like the ubuntu shutdown from the upper right ui turned into a logoff user
[01:50] <MrCurious> had to logback in, get shell and shutdown manually
[01:52] <MrCurious> persia: are you on a pandaboard
[01:52] <MrCurious> and seeing bluetooth options?
[01:57] <persia> My panda is currently headless.
[01:58] <persia> I did see bluetooth on it back when it was connected to KVM
[01:58] <persia> I didn't test it, as I thought there was no antenna (failed to see the obvious antenna on the board)
[02:11] <MrCurious> i didnt see it. had to ask
[03:13] <MrCurious> persia: i have reinstalled a fresh 11.04, and i get no such options in my bluetooth menu :(
[03:29] <MrCurious> nope. no bt menu like the help pages infer. guess there is a issue with pandaboard
[07:29] <ppisati> morning
[07:50] <MrCurious> sigh, ubuntu cant find the package ubuntu-omap4-extras
[07:56] <MrCurious> ah hah! http://omappedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_PPA
[11:37] <ogra_> janimo, are you already working on lightspark ?
[11:37] <ogra_> woglinde seems to have probs building it
[11:38] <janimo> ogra_, yes, I am looking at it on and off but did not build on ARM yet. I'll have a look
[11:38] <janimo> I just know it takes a lot of time to build
[11:38] <ogra_> yes, and takes a lot of ram too apparently
[11:38] <janimo> ogra_, btw I put two merge request related to the SD alignment BP
[11:39] <woglinde> janimo you need a machine with 1 gig
[11:39] <janimo> woglinde, ok I have a Panda
[11:39] <janimo> with 1G
[11:39] <woglinde> the amf3_parser file needs it
[11:39] <ogra_> woglinde, cant be since it built on the buildds
[11:39] <ogra_> unless thats something very new
[11:39] <woglinde> the ac100 with 512 and swap isnt working
[11:39] <woglinde> I gave up after 1 1/2 hours
[11:39] <ogra_> the babbage boards we use as buildds are
[11:39] <woglinde> compiling this file
[11:40] <ogra_> woglinde, try booting with nosmp ;)
[11:40] <woglinde> ogra its not compiled with -j
[11:40] <woglinde> 2
[11:40] <woglinde> its a boost or gcc error
[11:40] <ogra_> no, but memory management in kernel is different
[11:41] <ogra_> all i know is that it builds fine on the build machines
[11:41] <ogra_> and they only have 512M
[11:41] <janimo> woglinde, I'll do a build on oneiric - that is our target now
[11:41] <ogra_> but they are also UP machines
[11:41] <woglinde> janimo I tried with latest boost
[11:41] <woglinde> still the same problem
[11:42] <woglinde> you need to add armel in the control file
[11:42] <ogra_> shouldnt be needed in ubuntu
[11:42] <woglinde> but I think you are clever enough to find it our yourself
[11:42] <ogra_> i thing that was already patched
[11:42] <ogra_> *think
[11:42] <woglinde> I tried latest bazaar
[11:42] <woglinde> and its really only the amf3_parser
[11:42] <woglinde> all other files compiling
[11:43] <ogra_> you should have tried the latest packaging branch
[11:43] <woglinde> I wanted 0.4.8
[11:43] <woglinde> *g*
[11:44] <ogra_> you should have tried the latest packaging branch with a new upstream tarball :)
[11:44] <woglinde> ogra I doubt it changed something on the amf3_parser
[11:44] <ogra_> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/lightspark is the most recent packaging branch
[11:45] <woglinde> <IP_ADDRESS>
[11:45] <woglinde> to old
[11:45] <ogra_> woglinde, no, but you dont need to care about hacking the control file etc
[11:45] <ogra_> ??
[11:45] <ogra_> dch -i will make it 0.4.8
[11:45] <janimo> woglinde, the AMF parser was just rewritten yesterday upstream :)
[11:46] <woglinde> ogra why care=
[11:46] <woglinde> janimo lol
[11:46] <woglinde> okay
[11:46] <ogra_> you get the tarball, unpack it, cd into  the dir, bzr branch the debian dir, type dch -i and fire off a build
[11:46] <woglinde> I will take look
[11:46] <janimo> woglinde, but we are only packaging git master and ,ater for oneiric
[11:46] <woglinde> why I am always to early
[11:46] <janimo> via debian sync most likely
[11:47] <janimo> woglinde, but good that you reminded me, I'll do a git master build on ARM to see if anything broke lately
[11:50] <woglinde> hm I will try it too
[11:51] <woglinde> looks like the rewrite dont will fail
[11:55] <janimo> woglinde, are you trying to run latestt lightspark on natty?
[12:06] <woglinde> janimo yes
[12:06] <janimo> woglinde, it may be the case that even x86 fails to build on natty
[12:07] <janimo> did not check recently
[12:07] <woglinde> janimo as I said it was only the amf3 parser
[12:07] <woglinde> all other files compiled
[12:07] <woglinde> so its only linking left
[12:07] <janimo> ok
[12:07] <woglinde> but I will see it in a few minutes
[12:08] <woglinde> I will try it against the boost libs from oneiric
[12:15] <woglinde> so now lets see whats happen
[12:18] <ndec> lool: hi. is there any tool that i can use to parse a 'local PPA' and process the associate data e.g. list of packages (src, bin), dependencies, versions, .... ideally I think I am looking for a parse of files Packages and Sources...
[12:18] <woglinde> ndec look into apt-get code?
[12:20] <ogra_> ndec, grep-dctrl
[12:20] <ndec> woglinde: thx ;-) i was looking at a tool more 'ready to use'...
[12:20] <ogra_> with the Packages.gz file in /var/cache/apt
[12:22] <lool> ndec: Yes, launchpadlib
[12:23] <lool> ndec: http://paste.ubuntu.com/619829/ list-ppa-dsc.py
[12:23] <ogra_> yeah, lp-lib for remote stuff ...
[12:24] <ndec> lool: ogra_: thx! it looks like grep-dctrl might be want i need... i will dig into this.
[12:25] <lool> ndec: BTW I got the script from a Launchpad developer, it's not my writing
[12:25] <ogra_> you just dont want to be blamed for bugs ... :P
[12:41] <woglinde> *sigh*
[12:43] <janimo> woglinde, FWIW I successfully built LS HEAD on ARM/Oneiric without issues
[12:43] <woglinde> janimo I am fighting with scripting/abc.cpp
[12:44] <woglinde> maybee I should switch to a usbdisk
[12:45] <woglinde> instead of the sdcard
[12:45] <janimo> woglinde, most definitely
[12:45] <woglinde> but all other files compiles
[12:45] <janimo> It did not even occur to me you use SD
[12:45] <woglinde> I have enough
[12:45] <janimo> enough if one large file needs swapping
[12:46] <janimo> if SD is used that is becoming very slow
[12:46] <woglinde> yes
[12:46] <woglinde> I know
[12:46] <woglinde> ;)
[12:46] <janimo> I gave up on SD cards except for testing our images
[12:47] <janimo> and for boot partition
[12:58] <hrw> good move
[12:58] <woglinde> so now lets see with external harddisk
[13:41] <woglinde> its linking
[15:56] <rsalveti> In 5 min we'll start the linaro public plan review
[15:56] <rsalveti> https://wiki.linaro.org/Cycles/1111/PublicPlanReview
[15:56] <rsalveti> today presenting the Android and Dev Platform teams
[15:56] <rsalveti> Dev Platform is the one also working with Ubuntu on ARM
[15:56] <rsalveti> so folks here can probably be interested in hearing it
[16:32] <MrCurious> once one installs the omap4 add ons, is there a step after that to get them working ? (sound, bluetooth)
[17:39] <ppisati> rsalveti: do you know what it takes to get a linux-linaro-2.x kernel work with an ubuntu userland?
[17:40] <rsalveti> ppisati: should work just fine, we have the packages for that available at the repo, but if you want to grab from sources, just use the same config used by the packages
[17:40] <rsalveti> and should be fine
[17:40] <ppisati> rsalveti: uh... i'll try again, but it hanged at boot
[17:40] <rsalveti> ppisati: which kernel?
[17:40] <rsalveti> could be that the kernel is broken also ;-)
[17:40] <rsalveti> if you got 39
[17:41] <ppisati> i tried 39 for sure
[17:41] <ppisati> don't remember if i tried .38 too
[17:41] <ppisati> anyway, i'll do that
[17:41] <ppisati> and i'll use the .config from linux-linaro-natty
[18:01] <MrCurious_> does anyone here have a pandaboard with latest ubuntu, working sound, and a bluetooth menu that has more than just on/off?  If so, can I discuss the install procedure with you to work out what i missed?
[18:04] <gildean> MrCurious_: just the same conversation as minutes before, rsalveti said that those can be found as readymade packages at the repo
[18:05] <gildean> someone with an irc-shell should make a public log
[18:06] <gildean> i don't have enough diskspace on salaliitto.com to do that, as i already log more than one big channel
[18:06] <GrueMaster> MrCurious_: There is a known issue with audio and a workaround.  See bug 746023 comment 45.
[18:06] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 746023 in alsa-utils "No sound on omap4" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/746023
[18:07] <GrueMaster> I will be testing bluetooth with a BT keyboard here shortly.  Just finally got one in.
[18:19] <MrCurious_> gruemaster: can you ping me when you do that, i cant work out how to get my bluetooth to scan for devices, or be findable by another computer. i have installed the omap4 ubuntu add-ons, but still, it doesn't work like it appears in the help pages
[18:20] <GrueMaster> Ok.  Just imaged my new 16G class 10 SD so I can kill two birds as it were.  :P
[18:21] <MrCurious_> i got significantly better performance by moving root to a USB drive
[18:21] <GrueMaster> Well, duh.  :P
[18:21] <MrCurious_> and the SD's stopped getting corrupted
[18:21] <MrCurious_> i have weak sd's
[18:21] <GrueMaster> SD is horribly slow on every system I have seen (not just panda).
[18:22] <MrCurious_> my robot design depends on being able to do bluetooth serial ports.
[18:25] <GrueMaster> Just curious, but what are you using for a controller?
[18:27] <MrCurious_> you mean as the main computer, or to control the motors/servo's
[18:27] <GrueMaster> Motor controls.
[18:27] <MrCurious_> to control the motors, the plan is to use bluetooth modules + atmega328 + 754410 + some passives
[18:28] <MrCurious_> that way i can easily pair the subsystems with other pieces, like a lego brick approach, but wireless for all but power
[18:29] <GrueMaster> Do you have a link to a supplier or are you building this out of components & making your own boards?
[18:31] <MrCurious_> designing my own board
[18:31] <GrueMaster> ah.
[18:31] <MrCurious_> but i can send you a link for the $10 serial bluetooth modules if you want
[18:33] <GrueMaster> I have a ProXR 410 serial relay from http://controlanything.com that I plan on using for test automation.
[18:33] <GrueMaster> Having "fun" relearning how to program the serial port in C, especially since they only have examples in VB6 and .net.
[18:45] <MrCurious_> grue: http://www.satistronics.com/serial-port-bluetooth-module-masterslave-hc05_p2863.html 3.3v ttl serial port, any speed. very easy to configure and work with
[18:45] <MrCurious_> documentation is only slightly errored. just ignore everything above the command set, and you will be fine
[18:46] <GrueMaster> Cool
[18:49] <GrueMaster> Heh.  FAQ on their website:  Can I trust Satistronics?
[18:53] <MrCurious_> i tried a look alike module from elsewhere, and it was locked into 9600 8n1
[18:53] <MrCurious_> and a lame name
[18:53] <MrCurious_> but the satistronics ones are completely unlicked
[18:55] <GrueMaster> unlicked?  Reminds me of my test lab back at Intel.  We put "Do not lick" stickers on our high output powersupplies to appease the safety managers.
[18:56] <MrCurious_> un locked
[18:56] <MrCurious_> sorry
[18:56] <MrCurious_> heh
[18:57] <GrueMaster> Heh, I understood what you meant.  The typo just triggered a flashback.
[18:59] <GrueMaster> Ok, install went semi-smooth on my class 10.  oem-config restarted once but kicked through on second retry.  Not sure why, but I have seen that issue sporadically.
[19:03] <MrCurious_> my class 10, 16g 20m/s SD corrupts every install.
[19:05] <GrueMaster> Very odd.  Have you been able to get any logs from this?
[19:08] <MrCurious_> i just see write errors, then it remounts ro
[19:08] <MrCurious_> i believe it to be a bad sd, or that the SD timings are not compatible with the pandaboard
[19:09] <GrueMaster> You could try flashing the image to it then resizing the partition manually (if you have a linux desktop/laptop).
[19:12] <GrueMaster> Hmmm.  Massive disk i/o waits just running update manager.
[19:21] <MrCurious_> i can live my life happy believing that one SD card is evil
[19:22] <MrCurious_> i am more interested in working out how to verify i have all the omap4 proprietary drivers installed correctly
[19:22] <GrueMaster> Getting there.  :P
[20:25] <GrueMaster> MrCurious_: I seem to remember something about bluetooth support being added in the kernel after Natty release.  I'll check with the kernel guy in the am (he's in Italy).
[20:26] <GrueMaster> rsalveti: Does that sound right?  BT in kernel update?
[20:27] <rsalveti> it is in, but userspace doesn't support it properly
[20:27] <rsalveti> you still need to do some hacks to make it work
[20:27] <rsalveti> from what I heard this should be fixed with 39, but probably not for natty :-(
[20:28] <GrueMaster> Do we have steps for natty?
[20:28] <rsalveti> think so, is the same instructions I gave you while testing before the release, let me try to find it
[20:30] <rsalveti> http://paste.ubuntu.com/603343/
[20:30] <rsalveti> guess that's it
[20:30] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: ^
[20:30] <GrueMaster> Yep, looking.
[20:32] <MrCurious_> gruemaster: thanks!
[20:35] <sveinse> Does anyone have debs of a newer qemu (which doesn't fail on rootstock with "qemu: uncaught target signal 11 (Segmentation fault) - core dumped"
[20:35] <sveinse> The version in natty crashes this way while trying to compute the SSH RSA keys
[20:41] <GrueMaster> MrCurious_: Bug 789095 has more info.
[20:41] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 789095 in linux-linaro-omap "Bluetooth does not work on PandaBoard" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/789095
[20:43] <MrCurious_> ty
[20:44] <MrCurious_> this is good info
[20:46] <MrCurious_> i think if i canreplicate what warmcat (last comment) did i will be happy
[20:47] <sveinse> Is it possible that bug 674146 is the same as I'm seeing in qemu/rootstock?
[20:47] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 674146 in gcc-4.5 "dpkg segfaults during debootstrap on natty armel" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674146
[20:51] <sveinse> Anyone? Sorry for my persistence. I'm a bit in a drag here, as our build server is down due to this bug. Some pointers to what to do would be nice, thanks.
[21:51] <sveinse> I'm trying to run chroot dir /bin/bash into a armel rootfs, but I'm getting chroot: failed to run command `/bin/bash': No such file or directory
[21:51] <sveinse> This being on a server, it is possible that either the server or the FS stops this operation. How can I check that?
[22:23] <gildean> sveinse: chrooting to armel-ubuntu from different arch?
[22:24] <sveinse> gildean: yes from i386
[22:25] <sveinse> I'm strace'ing it, and I see the chroot() then chdir("/"), but the following execve("/bin/bash",...) fails
[22:33] <sveinse> I'm comparing the strace against a strace from my amd64 desktop where everything works, and I see minimal differences, and just the execve() call which fails
[22:56] <sveinse> Anyone knows if server apps (like apparmor) could interfer with qemu and binfmt?
[22:58] <sveinse> I don't understand why my chroot fails. The error is foo, and strace doesn't reveal anything.
[23:11] <sveinse> I think I'm going crazy. This, of course, being the day when the armel build server stops working combined with the exceptional occasion with almost no response in the forum. Tough luck...
[23:36] <persia> sveinse, Just to verify, you're using qemu-debootstrap to create the chroot (or some mechanism that depends upon this)?
[23:37] <sveinse> yes, i believe rootstock is using qemu-debootstrap, doesn't it?
[23:39] <sveinse> I'm suspecting that the reason rootstock/qemu crashes, and the fact that I cant run chroot into a armel rootfs, might be related
[23:40] <persia> I think it tries to do the same sort of thing with it's own (separate) debootstrap wrapper, but it's close enough.
[23:41] <sveinse> The weird part is that I don't trigger the crash on my desktop machine (which is amd64)
[23:41] <persia> Have you tried just executing a static armel binary?
[23:42] <sveinse> where can I get one?
[23:42] <persia> That would help differentiate whether qemu is completely not working or whether it's something more complicated.
[23:43] <sveinse> I wonder if there are any files within a normal ubuntu-minimal installation which are static
[23:43] <persia> I usually just create a quick hello.c and gcc -static it :)
[23:43] <sveinse> hold on
[23:46] <sveinse> ok, I'm able to run the static app from my bash shell (proving the binfmt+qemu works)
[23:49] <sveinse> Interesting:  "./hello" works (hello is armel static). But running (as root) "chroot . /hello" does not work!
[23:50] <cipher> "does not work" isn't very descriptive
[23:50] <sveinse> chroot: failed to run command `/hello': No such file or directory
[23:51] <cipher> try chroot . ./hello
[23:51] <sveinse> same result
[23:51] <cipher> file ./hello
[23:52] <sveinse> ./hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, not stripped
[23:52] <cipher> it was exact same error for chroot . ./hello?
[23:53] <persia> Aha!  That sounds like /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static doesn't exist in the chroot
[23:53] <sveinse> interesting
[23:53] <persia> This needs to be manually copied in, unfortunately, and updates are ugly.
[23:53] <sveinse> yeah, let me try
[23:54] <persia> Essentially, binfmt-misc is calling /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static when attempting to run the foreign binary.
[23:54] <sveinse> voila!
[23:54] <persia> And if there's not an extra copy in the chroot (which wouldn't be created by debootstrap normally), then it fails with "command not found"
[23:55] <persia> Excellent.  So, I think this probably represents a bug in rootstock: it probably needs to be ported to use qemu-debootstrap from qemu-user-static rather than whatever it's doing now.
[23:55] <sveinse> This means that a rootstock image is not purely without clutter or change from the host pc which created it?
[23:55] <persia> From the dependencies, it looks like it still expects the deprecated qemu-kvm-extras-static
[23:56] <sveinse> If it puts /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static in it, I mean
[23:56] <persia> rootstock may have some provision to delete this file, but I doubt it's clean.
[23:56] <sveinse> At least it sheds light on a large mystery for my part
[23:56] <persia> rootstock is a fun toy, but I wouldn't use it for any production purpose.
[23:58] <sveinse> I know you/ubuntu doesnt use it any more, but what other options are there to putting together a rootfs image?
[23:58] <sveinse> Because using it for production is exactly what it's used for today... :o
[23:59] <persia> Lots of folk here use it, but it was never used for the Ubuntu images.
[23:59] <persia> Do you have access to an armel development host?  Could you build images there?
[23:59] <sveinse> Takes a list of packages and outputs a rootfs. Nice.
[23:59] <persia> Not cross-building is the first step to reliability.


[00:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [zesty] r637 Allow specifying at what percent to build translations. (by Unit 193)
[00:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [zesty] r638 Update Standards-Version to 4.0.1. (by Unit 193)
[00:18] <Unit193> Well..
[01:22] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [artful] r637 Allow specifying at what percent to build translations. (by Unit 193)
[01:22] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [artful] r638 Update Standards-Version to 4.0.1. (by Unit 193)
[07:16] <knome> Unit193, yyyes?
[07:17] <Unit193> Already pushed.
[07:17] <knome> :)
[07:20] <flocculant> why does that paste include echo"Updating Tongue" ...
[07:21] <flocculant> slickymaster been around thinking it means language in English again :p
[07:23] <Unit193> "LINGUAS"?
[07:27] <flocculant> yup
[07:29] <Unit193> knome: Considered adding LINGUAS to bzrignore..
[07:31] <knome> aha
[07:31] <knome> wfm
[07:32] <Unit193> But then I figured I should just wait until we move to git.


[13:25] <elhoir> hello guys, im facing a problem. Currently running Ubuntu 21.10. With shipped kernel (5.13) everythin runs ok. Upgraded to 5.15.1 and pulseaudio does not "see" my soundcard (emu20k2, creative x-fi titanium). lspci does see it. Downgraded to 5.13 and audio is back again
[13:26] <elhoir> dmesg under 5.15.1 --- https://pastebin.com/2uXxVpu2
[13:26] <elhoir> any idea?
[13:28] <elhoir> sudo lshw -C video --- https://pastebin.com/ByeHMkXP
[13:28] <elhoir> sudo lshw -C sound --- https://pastebin.com/X1HwU5mE
[15:24] <juergh> elhoir, that's an unsupported kernel.
[15:25] <juergh> meaning, yes we provide it for testing but not supported.
[17:50] <TJ-> elhoir: which kernel driver is the 5.13 using for that PCI sound device/
[17:52] <TJ-> ahhh, it died snd_ctxfi
[19:05] <elhoir>  TJ- hello , yeah, snd_ctxfi
[19:05] <elhoir> TJ-, sorry i was away
[19:05] <TJ-> elhoir: there's a crash in that module in 5.15 which is why it isn't working.
[19:05] <elhoir> aha, i saw it
[19:06] <elhoir> so its a kernel bug? should i report that?
[19:06] <TJ-> elhoir: ry a 5.16 RC build first - it may already be fixed
[19:07] <elhoir> but i guess its a mainstream bug, not Ubuntu one
[19:07] <elhoir> TJ-, no 5.16-rc at kernel.org :-/
[19:07] <TJ-> elhoir: ahh, must just be me building it then!
[19:08] <elhoir> "mainstream"... i mean, upstream
[19:12] <elhoir> is there anything i can do? (im not kernel developer)
[19:28] <elhoir> TJ-,  i filled a report -- https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214985