[00:00] <RaphaelBarros> But I have some problems with it: when I set to Blender (which is my main program for my work) to stay on the dockand close the program afterwards, there's a space there with no icon, and when I click on it, this error appears: "KDEInit could not launch '/home/thebigheadedone/Blender 2.64 - Test Build/blender'"
[00:01] <RaphaelBarros> (which is strange, since my Blender folder is /Blender 2.65a)
[00:02] <sithlord48> you do not have system installed blender?
[00:02] <RaphaelBarros> Nope, I use the extracted version from their site
[00:02] <RaphaelBarros> Do I need to install it from the Software Center or a ppa?
[00:03] <sithlord48> not really but you may need a menu entry for it to show correctly
[00:14] <RaphaelBarros> I have one menu entry for it :/, when I open directly from a .desktop from my desktop, the icon that appears on the panel is a X, not the blender icon, and when I open from the menu entry, the same X appears and another space with the blender icon and a "loading" like effect, if set it to stay on the taskbar, the same error happens.
[00:16] <RaphaelBarros> So sad there has been no update to this widget since nov 10 2011.
[01:17] <claptrap> Anyone know of app that can view HTML and let you add notes or bookmarks? Like .pdf files.
[01:18] <claptrap> I could manually put in #tags but that would be tiresome for a technical document of ~150pages.
[03:57] <AlexZion> ࿊
[05:54] <bjrohan> HELP! I ran the fork bomb (I thought I had my processes limited correctly, but I did not). Soo, I rebooted, and now for some reason I can not open webpages in Chromium, or Chrome, but I can in FireFox. Also, I can not get system settings to open
[05:55] <bjrohan> I think the problem is that I have my settings set to restart anything I had runnin when I reboot
[06:02] <bjrohan> I thought I got it to stop, but I did not :-( Can someone help me stop the fork bomb I ran?
[06:03] <bjrohan> I restarted the computer, but it still runs :-(
[06:04] <tekkbuzz> bjrohan: what's a fork bomb?
[06:05] <tekkbuzz> ps aux   shows what processes are running.
[06:06] <bjrohan> darn it. I can't start anything now in the comman line
[06:08] <bjrohan> bjrohan@bjrohan-HPLaptop:~$ ps aux
[06:08] <bjrohan> bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable
[06:08] <bjrohan> bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable
[06:58] <Syria> Hi there! When I click on a link in the email client, I get a message telling me that I have to choose which program do I have to use to open that link!
[06:59] <Syria> Also When I download anything using firefox and I double click on it, I get the same message!
[07:20] <KimLaroux> Syria: which email client?
[07:22] <Syria> KimLaroux: Mozilla Thunderbird, Also The browser is causing the same problem, and any downloading program, When I click on the downloaded file, An image for example, I get a message telling me that I have to choose an application.
[07:22] <KimLaroux> did you chose an application?
[07:23] <KimLaroux> it should save it and never ask again
[07:23] <KimLaroux> but the first time it does ask
[07:34] <Syria> KimLaroux: I did not face this with the older releases, Also I don't know how to choose which application because when i click on the button "Choose" I get a normal file browser only.
[07:35] <KimLaroux> yeah, you have to find the binary
[07:35] <KimLaroux> it should be in /usr/bin
[07:35] <KimLaroux> just click on whichever, then select
[07:36] <KimLaroux> I installed Kubuntu 12.10 last week and I had the same thing
[07:36] <Syria> KimLaroux: Okay I will search for the binary in /usr/bin
[07:38] <Syria> KimLaroux:  It worked,
[07:38] <Syria> KimLaroux:  Thank you.
[07:38] <KimLaroux> you're welcome =)
[09:37] <userlain> Good afternoon!
[09:37] <userlain> Is anyone located in China?
[09:39] <rork> !cn | userlain
[09:40] <userlain> Is the purpose of this channel for support ?
[09:42] <bazhang> yes
[09:43] <userlain> Ah, I see there is kubuntu-offtopic. Perhaps I should head there.
[09:43] <userlain> Thanks bazhang
[09:43] <bazhang> thats for chat, yeah
[09:46] <userlain> Is it possible to set up KMail fore use with Microsoft Hotmail?
[09:46] <userlain> *for use with
[09:53] <userlain> Is /list disabled?
[09:55] <mr0wl> anyone know a good PPA for rekonq 2.0?
[10:05] <Peace-> mr0wl: rekonq?
[10:05] <Peace-> mr0wl: rekonq is a joke
[10:06] <mr0wl> Peace-: thanks for your input, but i don't think i asked if rekonq has any humors value
[10:07] <Peace-> mr0wl: free to lost your time with that browser
[10:07] <Peace-> mr0wl: i will suggest to try this one that works properly http://www.qupzilla.com/
[10:07] <mr0wl> yeah, i already use it
[10:08] <mr0wl> it's a very good browser
[10:09] <userlain> I am running Chromium, latest repository dump, on 12.04 and I can't get the spell-check to work.
[10:09] <userlain> I have checked and rechecked all language and auto-correct options. Any ideas?
[10:11] <Peace-> userlain: ? here it's working
[10:11] <Peace-> but i have 12.10
[10:13] <Peace-> userlain: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/01/05/plasma-desktopJX2285.png
[10:16] <userlain> Thanks Peace
[10:17] <userlain> But I have confirmed that already.
[10:17] <userlain> I don't have any idea what it could be...
[12:07] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[12:08] <jacklk> Hi,a message keeps popping up sayig "Silence in session Shell"
[12:08] <jacklk> Whar is going on?
[12:14] <sbivol_> jacklk: you have activated silence monitoring in Konsole, bu pressing Ctrl+Shift+I
[12:14] <jacklk> okay
[12:14] <jacklk> It's stopped now after pressing that
[12:15] <sbivol_> you can find that option in the View menu in Konsole
[12:29] <Syria> Hi there! When I click on a link in the email client, I get a message telling me that I have to choose which program do I have to use to open that link!
[12:29] <Syria> Also When I download anything using firefox and I double click on it, I get the same message!
[13:18] <Riddell> 4.10 beta 2 kubuntu.org/news/kde-plasma-applications-410-rc-2
[13:28] <Syria> Hi, How can I poweroff several machines at one time? When the employees go home somethimes they forget their computers running!
[13:35] <ludvika> login
[13:36] <monkeyjuice> Syria: why shut them down?
[13:37] <Syria> monkeyjuice:  Because in Syria the electricity is very bad and we have no ups devices attached to the computers, So when they leave their offices sometimes they forget the computers running.
[13:38] <monkeyjuice> your system admin?
[13:38] <Syria> monkeyjuice:  Yes.
[13:38] <monkeyjuice> hmmm guess you could just ssh in to them from your desk and do  a shutdown
[13:39] <monkeyjuice> before you leave
[13:39] <monkeyjuice> or write a script set to time out
[13:39] <Syria> monkeyjuice:  I thought about that, But it is not an easy thing for 35 computers.
[13:39] <monkeyjuice> hmmm
[13:39] <monkeyjuice> they all leave at the same time every day
[13:40] <sbivol_> Syria: The best approach is for you to set a cron task that runs at a late hour, say if employees leave at 18:00, you set a task that does „shutdown now” and runs at 18:30
[13:41] <sbivol_> Syria: a nice application that I use on my computer is KShutdown. It is very flexible.
[13:49] <sbivol_> Syria: regarding the email link and Firefox, it's an issue because of the poor integration that Gnome applications have with other desktop environments. this link may help you: http://matthieu.yiptong.ca/2012/04/12/fix-file-open-and-open-containing-folder-on-kdekubuntu-12-04/
[14:44] <Wizard> Hi.
[16:05] <Schrodinger`Cat> hey
[16:05] <Schrodinger`Cat> i have installed kubuntu-desktop with the ppa:kubuntu-ppa/backports on my ubuntu 12.04 LTS, and everything works exept the "add widgets" that open an empty thing
[16:06] <Schrodinger`Cat> and i have removed the task list widget, and i cant re-add it :/
[16:06] <Schrodinger`Cat> http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/338293addwirdgetissue.png
[17:10] <Mighty_pooh> Hi there people. Im a very common ubuntu user. Dont have too much knowledge. In the past when i installed ubuntu i always ended up filling my /boot partition up with older kernels. Is there a safe tool to clean up the /boot partition since i dont have a clue on what to do my self?
[17:13] <tsimpson> Mighty_pooh: just remove the linux-image-*-generic packages that you don't want
[17:20] <The_Jag> hi all
[17:21] <The_Jag> I need a little help with Dolphin, my NAS and digikam
[17:21] <The_Jag> anyone willing to help?
[17:21] <The_Jag> I have the need to mount some folders on my NAS onto my system
[17:24] <DarthFrog> The_Jag:  Set up a NFS server on the NAS and mount the NFS shares into your filesystem.
[17:24] <The_Jag> :DarthFrog
[17:24] <DarthFrog> Or, if the NAS exports Windows shares, use Samba to mount them.
[17:25] <The_Jag> DarthFrog: I already do that but on dolphin it shows the folders as Network Resources, not as Devices
[17:25] <The_Jag> so, when setting the folder to store photos in digikam, It cannot recognize the nas folder
[17:25] <DarthFrog> The_Jag:  Likely Dolphin isn't reporting the mounted directories, it's likely doing uPNP.
[17:26] <The_Jag> I added the folder using the wizard in dolphin, ssh connection
[17:26] <DarthFrog> Can you get to the NFS mounted directory via the command line?
[17:26] <The_Jag> even connecting through samba did not work for digikam
[17:27] <The_Jag> uhm
[17:27] <The_Jag> how to do that?
[17:27] <The_Jag> sorry not that capable of using command line
[17:27] <The_Jag> moving first steps
[17:28] <DarthFrog> The_Jag: Hmm, sorry.
[17:28] <The_Jag> no prob
[17:28] <The_Jag> thanks
[17:29] <DarthFrog> How are you browsing to the shares in Dolphin?  By clicking on the "Network" icon?
[17:29] <DarthFrog> Can you browse to the mounted shares by clicking on the "Root" icon?
[17:29] <The_Jag> let me see
[17:30] <The_Jag> to access the folder
[17:30] <The_Jag> I have to go through Network in the Resources left panel
[17:30] <The_Jag> not root
[17:31] <DarthFrog> Yeah, that's not mounting the remote directory into your file system.
[17:31] <The_Jag> exactly
[17:31] <The_Jag> I reach it through ssh (via Dolphin)
[17:31] <The_Jag> I'd like to see the folder as mounted like an harddrive
[17:32] <The_Jag> like in Windows, OSX or even Gnome Nautilus
[17:32] <The_Jag> without using fstab
[17:33] <The_Jag> I mean, I'd like to click on my NAS icon in Dolphin and then it mounts the device
[17:33] <The_Jag> in old ubuntu I could do that
[17:33] <The_Jag> in kubuntu and Dolphin I can't find the way
[17:34] <DarthFrog> I've never done it.  Never had to.  Sorry.
[17:34] <The_Jag> Oh ok, no problem then! Thanks for the help!
[17:34] <DarthFrog> But I could see how that capability would be incredibly useful.
[17:35] <DarthFrog> I'm not saying it can't be done, BTW.  I'm saying I've never tried to do so. :-)
[17:35] <The_Jag> yes it is!
[17:35] <The_Jag> :)
[17:36] <The_Jag> BTW what's NFS?
[17:36] <DarthFrog> Network File System.   It's exactly what you want.  But it's not trivial.
[17:36] <The_Jag> Ah
[17:36] <The_Jag> ok
[17:36] <The_Jag> Ijust enabled it from the nas control panel let's see what will happen
[17:37] <DarthFrog> If your NAS device has a NFS server, you'll be away to the races.
[17:38] <The_Jag> should I see it from root?
[17:38] <DarthFrog> Not until it's properly configured.
[17:38] <DarthFrog> You will have to tell the NFS server which directories to export.
[17:39] <The_Jag> ok
[17:39] <DarthFrog> Then you'll have to mount those exports (shared directories) you want into your file system.
[17:40] <The_Jag> uhm
[17:40] <DarthFrog> Set the mounting up in fstab and it's there all the time .
[17:40] <The_Jag> now the thing is to set up the nas then
[17:40] <DarthFrog> I did say it wasn't trivial. :-)
[17:40] <The_Jag> :)
[17:40] <DarthFrog> Yes, set up the NAS to export the directories you want.
[17:42] <DarthFrog> Then confirm that it's been done properly by opening up a command line terminal (i.e konsole in KDE) by the following command "showmount -e <ip address of NAS device or name if it's resolveable>"
[17:42] <The_Jag> Dolphin is powerful but messy
[17:43] <The_Jag> but still i don't want to mount the nas always
[17:43] <The_Jag> I'd like to mount it when I want
[17:43] <DarthFrog> Then set the "noauto" switch in fstab.
[17:43] <The_Jag> let me see
[17:43] <The_Jag> oh
[17:43] <The_Jag> cool
[17:43] <The_Jag> :D
[17:43] <FloodBotK1> The_Jag: Please don't flood; use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste; don't use Enter as punctuation.
[17:46] <DarthFrog> The_Jag:  Here's my fstab: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1500289/
[17:46] <The_Jag> thanks
[17:48] <DarthFrog> All the "nodev,noexec,nosuid" options are for security.
[17:49] <The_Jag> ok get it
[17:49] <The_Jag> still trying to set up the nas though :P
[17:49] <DarthFrog> Have fun. :-)
[17:49] <The_Jag> eheh thanks!
[18:51] <quietschie> hi, i need assistance with an apparmor config. can anyone help me?
[20:23] <XiaYixuan> hi
[20:23] <XiaYixuan> how do I find out if phython is installed?
[20:32] <sbivol> XiaYixuan: in Konsole, simply type pyth and press TAB three times. you will see all python versions currently installed in your system
[20:33] <XiaYixuan> awesome! thanks
[20:33] <sbivol> XiaYixuan: you're welcome
[21:00] <thechef> How long does it usually take until the most current nvidia drivers land in LTS?
[21:00] <thechef> nvidia-current-updates
[21:10] <XiaYixuan> what is the image editing software for kubuntu by default?
[21:22] <FAER48> Привет
[21:22] <FAER48> Есть кото
[23:25] <cornfeed> howdy howdy. does anyone know if the package "fnfxd" conflicts with acpid? I know some of the functions overlap, and I dont know how to get fnfxd to be the dominant hot key daemon
[23:51] <cornfeed> its for toshiba laptop hotkeys....


[16:57] <jtaylor> mh the arm64 compiler is not very robust
[16:58] <jtaylor> two of my packages create ICE, I guess I don't really need to care (yet)?


[02:25] <Qasker> if anyone wonders why people do not use linux as their primary desktop, I would point them towards the not-well-put-together, effing garbage upgrades the developers put them through
[02:26] <Qasker> Just upgraded to 16.04 bc I was forced to, updates no longer available for previous version, and I am left with a half working desktop
[02:26] <Qasker> I know tech shit and can put the work and time in, but it is frustrating bc I should not have to
[02:28] <Qasker> others, who don't have the time or knowledge are stuck, and will go to the system that "just works", which at this point, is effing Windows, which is super sad, and disgraceful, for linux
[02:29] <Qasker> I had less problems upgrading a client to windows 10 from windows 7, even with the extra steps of turing off the privacy shit, than I did with this linux upgrade
[02:29] <Qasker> that is pathetic
[02:29]  * Qasker points finger
[07:03] <LioneLL> 16.10 is out  :)
[07:16] <JockeTF> Sweet!
[11:03] <aredpanda`w> Hey guys, will there be an upgrade option through the OS or do I need to use a live image to install 16.10?
[11:03] <aredpanda`w> I'm on 16.06 atm
[11:04] <JockeTF> aredpanda`w: You'll be able to upgrade your current installation.
[11:04] <JockeTF> (You can even do it right now, if you so desire.)
[11:04] <aredpanda`w> do-release-upgrade tells me no updates found, what other options to I have
[11:06] <JockeTF> aredpanda`w: It might be set to look only for LTS releases. Look at the "software & updates" application. Go to the Update tab, and change the "notify me of a new Ubuntu version" option.
[11:06] <aredpanda`w> huh, my bad! I had the software updater set to only notify me of LTS updates!
[11:06] <JockeTF> Yeah. :)
[11:06] <aredpanda`w> tyty
[11:07] <JockeTF> As long as you haven't derped around too much with PPAs and stuff it should be rather painless.
[11:33] <aredpanda`w> I've had a couple ppas but nothing that replaces system stuff
[11:33] <aredpanda`w> It warned be they'd be turned off for the upgrade, should be fine
[13:30] <pchoo> Hi all, Got an optimus based laptop (i7-6700HQ, VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Skylake Integrated Graphics (rev 06), 3D controller: NVIDIA Corporation GM108M [GeForce 940M] (rev a2)
[13:30] <pchoo> ) - What's the best recommendation for getting graphics set up?
[13:32] <fleetfox> optimus? :D good luck
[13:33] <pchoo> fleetfox: i expected a response like that haha
[13:34] <fleetfox> tbh, i'm not up to date with current situation
[13:36] <pchoo> I know that gdm has problems using the drivers
[13:36] <pchoo> in that you get a black screen and can't login
[13:36] <pchoo> I'm on 16.04 ubuntu gnome with lightdm instead of gdm
[13:36] <pchoo> and that *kinda* works
[13:37] <pchoo> I get some weird screen tearing, it lags a bit sometimes and my battery dies super fast
[13:38] <fleetfox> iirc it was really hard to make both cards work as expected but if you were fine with running only one of them all time there was a way
[13:39] <pchoo> mmm, There appear to be some issues with the nvidia drivers, I think I've got 361 installed
[13:39] <pchoo> most of what I'm reading suggests it's best to just use bumblebee and optirun or primusrun the apps you want it for
[13:39] <pchoo> so it remains disabled most of the time
[13:42] <pchoo> I much prefer Gnome to Unity, so I'll probably format, install 16.10 , lightdm, then set up bumblebee
[13:42] <pchoo> I'll let you know how that goes haha
[14:53] <JockeTF> Will there be a (non-staging) PPA for bringing Yakkety up to 3.22?


[00:30] <jbuncher> apw:  I won't be able to test those kernels today, but I should get a chance to tomorrow.
[00:43] <apw> they'll take some hours yet anyhow ... will reply on the bug
[00:44] <jbuncher> sounds good
[08:57] <pARAd0X85> where is the best place to discover the Linux Input Architecture ?
[14:07] <smb_tp> Ok, so maybe we look at the same stuff with https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/286672 as for
[14:07] <ubot3> Malone bug 286672 in linux "WARNING: at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.27/kernel/power/main.c:176 suspend_test_finish+0x74/0x80()" [Medium,In progress]
[14:08] <smb_tp> bug 318978
[14:08] <ubot3> Malone bug 318978 in dell "Hard drive in Studio XPS 13 and 16 cause a 17-18s resume time" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/318978
[14:08] <rtg> smb_tp: the driver was violating the spec in that it was not waiting the minimum amount of time for the link to reestablish
[14:08] <smb_tp> Ok, what happened when it did not wait long enough? It went into a reset?
[14:09] <rtg> smb_tp: it would eventually resover, but not until after the resume time had been exceeded
[14:09] <rtg> recover, even
[14:10] <smb_tp> Hm, from the logs in the other bug report it looks like the link has been reset (could be the recovers) and it requires quite some time until the disk is ready
[14:11] <rtg> smb_tp: exactly, thats why its disk specific
[14:12] <smb_tp> Then the best thing to check is whether that patch has been backported to intrepid, but I too don't think so.
[14:12] <rtg> smb_tp: its a real simple change
[14:13] <apw> IntuitiveNipple, on bug #286673 you suggest that there is a relationship with firmware loading, i don't see any firmware loading in the kernel logs there
[14:13] <ubot3> Malone bug 286673 in flashplugin-nonfree "flash plugin 10 is extremely slow !" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286673
[14:13] <smb_tp> The other thing is, should kerneloops react on a WARN like it does? It seems to act as if a kernel crash had occured.
[14:13] <apw> all i see is a machine loading slowly, cause its disk took a little while to come back
[14:13] <IntuitiveNipple> apw: Relationship *could* have been related to the firmware issue. My investigation showed it isn't on that bug
[14:14] <apw> rtg, smb, one thing i would note here, is that its ok for sata to take up to 5 seconds, and yet the overall resume warning time is 5 seconds
[14:14] <IntuitiveNipple> apw: It was in the context of my sweeping through the suspend/resume bugs trying to identify which might be caused by the firmware load issue
[14:14] <apw> i think in tandem we should up the rather arbitrary resume timeout by the delta there
[14:14] <apw> IntuitiveNipple, makes sense then
[14:15] <rtg> apw: correct, but in general most disks re-synv in something less then 2 seconds, whereas the original timeout was only 1 second.
[14:15] <apw> smb_tp, most WARN_ON's are something that needs reporting, that one really isn't
[14:15] <apw> rtg, yes, but the one in the bug smb quotes first the disk take of the order of 2s to recover
[14:16] <apw> and in that machine that pushes recovery to 8s total, there is nothing major there, other than the disk at 2s to my eyey
[14:16] <smb_tp> I guess it is only the "your kernel crashed" string that apparently is somewhere in the popup window when it asks for submitting a report that makes users jump
[14:17] <apw> if its going to be that close to a pretty idea time, its too agressive as a WARN_ON if you have kerneloops installed
[14:17] <apw> my feeling is that that is a bit low with the state of the art, its an ideal not a hard deadline
[14:18] <apw> i wonder if perhaps there should be a 'look_i_am_slow_at_resuming=yes' kernel command line to shut it up
[14:18] <apw> else people will report an oops for every resume
[14:18] <smb_tp> The reports would require something like a 5s delay (that is when the atalib prints be patient)
[14:19] <smb_tp> But that probably is not needed if the other timeout is larger
[14:22] <smb_tp> IntuitiveNipple, I think we should try the patch from 318978 with some Intrepid  test kernels. If that prevents the recovery this should help there as well.
[14:22] <IntuitiveNipple> smb_tp: Have I got confused? I *thought* one of the reporters was using 2.6.28-6 or -7 ?
[14:23]  * smb_tp looks again
[14:24] <IntuitiveNipple> smb_tp: You're correct! I've looked at som many kern.log's recently I don't know where I am :)
[14:24] <IntuitiveNipple> s/som/so/
[14:25] <smb_tp> No, there seems to be one, thoug hard to say which extactlly kernel level
[14:25] <IntuitiveNipple> in which case I agree, if Tim's patch will help it'll calm some nerves
[14:25] <smb_tp> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/286672/comments/16
[14:25] <ubot3> Malone bug 286672 in linux "WARNING: at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.27/kernel/power/main.c:176 suspend_test_finish+0x74/0x80()" [Medium,In progress]
[14:25] <IntuitiveNipple> oh, well spotted!
[14:25] <smb_tp> Hm , must be 2.6.28-8-24
[14:25] <smb_tp> Lets check when the other patch got in
[14:26] <IntuitiveNipple> It shows 2.6.28-8-generic #24-Ubuntu
[14:27] <smb_tp> rtg, patch went in 2.6.28-5.12, so it should be in there
[14:27] <rtg> smb_tp: in Jaunty for sure. I thought you were talking about Intrepid?
[14:28] <smb_tp> Most of the others yes. One single WARN for 28 but funnily when he supplied the whole dmesg it was 2.6.27 again...
[14:28] <rtg> hmm, some crack involved?
[14:30] <IntuitiveNipple> Someone testing kernels to fix it maybe?
[14:30] <IntuitiveNipple> I'll ask him to clarify
[14:30] <smb_tp> Sounds a bit like it. Well the WARN jsut says takes to long on resume, we don't know why for 2.6.28, so I would really go with that patch and see
[14:31] <smb_tp> IntuitiveNipple, I could provide a test kernel to try and link it to the bug report
[14:33] <IntuitiveNipple> That'd be useful :) I'm just adding a comment now
[14:33]  * smb_tp goes to cook a kernel
[14:37] <IntuitiveNipple> smb_tp: Can you throw in a printk() so we know which code-path ata_wait_ready() takes when -ENODEV applies? I don't think we can figure it out any other way. It would help determine if the ATA_TMOUT_FF_WAIT is used to cause ready to be reset artificially
[14:39] <smb_tp> IntuitiveNipple, should be possible. hopefully after the other patch the wait won't occur
[14:40] <IntuitiveNipple> And if it does, we get to know which code-path to poke
[14:44] <IntuitiveNipple> smb_tp: Looking at it, it might be best to use a count of how many times 'ready' is reset in both paths and print the summary at function-exit else printing to log every~ 50ms might add a delay of its own :)
[14:45] <smb_tp> Heh, yeah :)
[16:29] <philsf> ogasawara: ping?
[16:29] <ogasawara> philsf: what's up
[16:30] <Martyn> Had anyone had experience configuring and using gfs or OCFS2 on ubuntu-server?
[16:30] <philsf> ogasawara: I was told to contact you about a bug, could you take a look at a kernel backtrace for me please?
[16:30] <ogasawara> philsf: sure, which bug #
[16:31] <philsf> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/21975410/dmesg.log from bug #325238
[16:31] <ubot3> Malone bug 325238 in linux "BUG: unable to handle kernel paging request" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/325238
[16:32] <philsf> I think I inputted everything the wiki asks for
[16:37] <Martyn> philsf : Considering I'm also currently working in the kernel paging subsystem .. I'll take a quick gander too
[16:37] <philsf> Martyn: cool, thanks!
[16:38] <philsf> it looks like it should be a nvidia blob thing, but since it also happens with the LiveCD, it also should not be. kind of a paradox for the lay me
[16:39] <ogasawara> philsf: you mention you're able to reproduce with a LiveCD, have you tried the latest Jaunty Alpha?  has a 2.6.28 based kernel.
[16:39] <ogasawara> philsf: I'd just be curious if it still oopses
[16:39] <philsf> ogasawara: I haven't. I only tried hardy CD and DVD
[16:39] <philsf> the strange thing is that it worked perfectly for almost a year
[16:40] <ogasawara> philsf: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/jaunty/
[16:40] <ogasawara> philsf: if you wouldn't mind testing that would be great - also Alpha 5 should drop today
[16:42] <philsf> ok, I'l try it in a couple of hours
[16:42] <ogasawara> philsf: thanks. I'll subscribe to the bug report, so if you can post a comment with your test results there I'll see it
[16:43] <Martyn> ogasawara : The OOPS recorded in the log is odd.
[16:45] <Martyn> ogasawara : It was in the middle of trying an execve
[16:45] <Martyn> Which would be what you'd expect if it .. say .. couldn't read the file from the page_cache after it expected to load it from disk.
[16:46] <Martyn> However, the whole chain of Oops'es seems to start early on, during the initialization of the intel 915...
[16:46] <Martyn> [   51.475653] EIP: [<f990f9ee>] intel_i915_configure+0xce/0x100 [intel_agp] SS:ESP 0068:f741bde4
[16:46] <Martyn>   (agp bus)
[16:48] <Martyn> philsf : When you remove the nVidia card, everything boots correctly, right?
[17:26] <kristian_> oooo. is this the kernel?
[17:30] <maco> kristian_: yes, would you like some popcorn?
[17:33] <kristian_> thanks, but no thanks!
[17:34] <kristian_> i fount the kernel! :-D
[17:34] <kristian_> found*
[18:44] <philsf> Martyn: yes, when I remove the nvidia card, everything boots ok, afaict
[18:52] <Martyn> You have a conflict, in hardware then.
[18:53] <Martyn> i know you say it's been working before, which leads me to think there might be a hardware change somewhere.   Specifically, I'm wondering if the internal intel 915 based video is trying to map the same resources as the nVidia card now.  Not something that would _usually_ be a bios setting.
[18:53] <Martyn> More a jumper.
[18:53] <Martyn> but sometimes it can be something the manufacturer lets you set in the BIOS of the machine (disable internal video card) etc...
[18:53] <IntuitiveNipple> It could be an MTRR issue... I was suspicious of the VESA framebuffer
[18:54] <Martyn> Why?
[18:54] <Martyn> "intuitive nipple?"  I have to know the origin
[18:54] <IntuitiveNipple> depending on the CPU, there may be insufficient MTRRs
[18:55] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: Did the system work ok previously with the nvidia adapter ?
[18:55] <Martyn> True, but phil said that there were no major changes, and it was working in the past...
[18:55] <Martyn> so mtrr exhaustion seems unlikely
[18:56] <IntuitiveNipple> Unexpected BIOS reset might influence that. I've seen many systems cause unexpected issues because of that.
[18:56] <Martyn> Ah, good point.
[18:57] <jbuncher> apw:  I'm posting in the bug right now, but I was able to test all 3 of those kernels, and they all worked.  The 24-23 kernel still won't connect though.  Do you know of any other changes would there be between .24-22 and .24-23 that would have caused this?
[18:57] <IntuitiveNipple> If you look at the vm addresses of the oops they are very close to pkmap. I wondered if something was invading pkmap
[18:57] <Martyn> Although would linux early initialization really pay attention to what the BIOS settings are vis-a-vie MTRR's?
[18:58] <IntuitiveNipple> The MTRRs are being configured to take account of holes and so forth by things like agpgart and so on. Also, the vesa fb driver can also allocate them.
[18:58] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: yes, it worked for almost a year, since I bought it
[18:59] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: OK, I noticed you said that it started 'shortly after' after adding the additional hard disk
[18:59] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: how 'short' is short?
[18:59] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: about a week
[19:00] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: And the nvidia adapter was in the system at that time, yes?
[19:00] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: yes
[19:00] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: but when things started going wrong, you discovered that removing it solved the problems?
[19:00] <philsf> correct
[19:00] <IntuitiveNipple> OK. Did you see my suggestions I added to the bug report?
[19:01] <philsf> I just read them. I'll try them in order now
[19:01] <philsf> can I skip some steps, since I know the HDs work without the nvidia?
[19:02] <philsf> and do you need all dmesg.logs for each step?
[19:02] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: I would place a mild bet on the BIOS step right now. Not just resetting it, but looking for alternate configuration options that affect the internal/external video chipsets and memory mapping
[19:03] <philsf> so, should reset to factory defaults suffice?
[19:03] <IntuitiveNipple> No, don't need logs. The idea is to try and find some point at which the system is stable.
[19:04] <IntuitiveNipple> You've confirmed two things: 1) removing the nvidia adapter solves the issue and 2) it used to work with it in
[19:04] <apw> jbuncher, thnkas for the test, will think on it
[19:04] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: So I'd be looking in BIOS for any and all options that affect the video chipsets and memory-mapping (AGP window, for example)
[19:05] <jbuncher> apw:  no problem, glad to help.
[19:13] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: ok, I just booted the ahrdy liveDVD sucessfully, with everyting except for the nvidia adapter. Since I have no idea what a proper setting would be for AGP window, nor anything related to that, I never changed it (willingly, that is)
[19:13] <philsf> *hardy
[19:15] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: OK. In BIOS did you see any options anywhere that allow the enabling/disabling of the internal graphics chipset ?
[19:15] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: Also, what motherboard make/model is it?
[19:15] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: it's an intel d945gpt mobo
[19:16] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: I honestly didn't even look for such an option, will do now
[19:17] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: there usually is something buried away. First thing I do with any system is go through every BIOS menu and option so I will remember in future when something like this comes up
[19:18]  * IntuitiveNipple has to leave now. Dinner.
[19:18] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: me too, with the exception of the arcane PCI settings
[19:18] <philsf> IntuitiveNipple: thanks for the tips, I'll update the bug with any news from the tests
[19:18] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: Those are the important ones... sometimes something important is buried 3 menus deep
[19:18] <IntuitiveNipple> philsf: I'll keep an eye on the bug report
[19:33] <Martyn> Okay, is there some arcade voodo I have to do in order to get gfs working in Intrepid?
[19:34] <Martyn> Because right now, the gfs kernel module is -not- cooperating
[19:47] <wmat> Martyn: not cooperating how?
[19:50] <maco> would "iwlagn: Intel(R) Wireless WiFi Link AGN driver for Linux, 1.3.27ks" be the first thing sent to dmesg after modprobing iwlagn?
[19:50] <rtg> maco:  looks like the module banner to me
[19:51] <maco> total kernel newbie here..does that make it the first thing that happens when i modprobe it?
[19:51] <wmat> maco: try removing it, then tailing dmesg while adding it
[19:51] <rtg> maco: its close enough to the first thing that happens
[19:51] <maco> ok
[19:52] <maco> er...oh...should i be looking at dmesg, syslog, or kern.log to find what the iwlagn module was doing during ifup?
[19:53] <maco> i think it's the modules fault ifup kept failing. unload/reload fixed it
[19:53] <rtg> maco: dmesg collects all driver log output
[19:54] <maco> thanks
[19:54] <rtg> maco: actually, dmesg collects all printk() output.
[19:57] <philsf> Martyn: doI understand correctly IntuitiveNipple's suggestion was somehow the BIOS got corrupted?
[19:58] <Martyn> philsf : I also think it's possible your BIOS settings _may_ be involved here.   It might be worth it to go into the BIOS, choose some default settings, and then try again.
[19:59] <Martyn> wmat : It's not loading.
[19:59] <Martyn> wmat : It seems to load, and the kernel reports the symbols as being available, but the gfs tools refuse to work.
[20:04] <wmat> Martyn: GFS2 tools?  I recall something about everything GFS related moving to GFS2, but I could be wrong.
[20:06] <philsf> resetting BIOS config to factory defaults apparently solved it for good. I'd like to know why :)
[22:04] <Martyn> Hmmm .... does tmpfs (or any of the RAMfs drivers) pin the pages into memory to prevent them getting swapped out?
[22:04] <Martyn> Aka.. is it safe to use a tmpfs volume for swapping?
[22:50] <Majost> Is there some documentation I can look at to figure out how to create an additional patch set for ubuntu-hardy-lum?
[22:50] <laga> Majost: what do you want to do?
[22:51] <Majost> I want to add a couple HDA patches and update the existing hda_codec.patch
[22:52] <laga> have you found the kernel team wiki yet?
[22:53] <Majost> Yes, but I haven't found anything specific to the hardy-lum package just yet.
[22:53] <laga> you get a git checkout, apply your patches, update changelog, rebuild?
[22:55] <Majost> so for the .patch files, is there a series file or anything which is used to apply a patch order?
[22:55] <laga>  i believe it's all kept in git. not sure about that anymore
[22:55] <Majost> okay, I will look there
[23:10] <Majost> So is there any preferred specific method of patching to be able to push fixes upstream?
[23:16] <laga> Majost: git commits seem to be the preferred way..
[23:16] <laga> who is "upstream"? hardy-lum probably is pretty old
[23:26] <Majost> Well, hopefully Ubuntu.
[23:27] <laga> ah, that patch flow is documented in the wiki


[21:41] <elacheche> Hello folks! How are you doing cbj nzoueidi pavlushka vadmeste ?
[21:42] <pavlushka> I am good elacheche , How are you?
[21:43] <pavlushka> elacheche: me trying to make work this project https://www.switchdoc.com/2015/01/weather-arduino-weatherpiarduino/ with arduino but the anemometer seems broken, need to test its reed switch now
[21:43] <u-la-la> [ Weather For Your Arduino - WeatherPiArduino - SwitchDoc Labs ] - https://www.switchdoc.com
[21:44] <pavlushka> elacheche: cannot find a magnet and its 3.44 am , so only possible on day time.
[21:45] <pavlushka> elacheche: have you worked with mattermost server? the better version of irc where you can correct/edit your posts.
[21:45] <pavlushka> ?
[23:41] <elacheche> Hey pavlushka ! Sorry was afk xD
[23:41] <elacheche> LEt me read that
[23:41] <pavlushka> sure
[23:41] <pavlushka> np
[23:42] <elacheche> I used mattermost once, never setup it.. I think nzoueidi did that! But if you need help seting it up let meknow and maybe I can help
[23:47] <pavlushka> elacheche: sure, I know :)
[23:48] <pavlushka> elacheche: I am using this anemometer https://www.amazon.com/WeatherRack-Anemometer-SwitchDoc-WeatherPiArduino-Raspberry/dp/B00QURVHN6
[23:49] <pavlushka> elacheche: but the wind speed gauge is not giving any reading
[23:50] <pavlushka> elacheche: So I opened it up and found just a reed switch there https://www.techshopbd.com/product-categories/switch/852/reed-switch-techshop-bangladesh
[23:50] <u-la-la> [ Reed Switch | Techshopbd ] - https://www.techshopbd.com
[23:54] <pavlushka> ok, the anemometer from switchdoclabs, https://www.switchdoc.com/weatherpiarduino-bare-board/
[23:54] <u-la-la> [ WeatherPiArduino Weather Board - SwitchDoc Labs ] - https://www.switchdoc.com
[23:55] <pavlushka> looks like the https://www.davisinstruments.com/product/anemometer-for-weather-monitor-or-wizard/ was a better choice
[23:56] <u-la-la> [ Anemometer for Weather Monitor or Wizard | Davis Instruments ] - https://www.davisinstruments.com
[23:57] <pavlushka> and was using this arduino library to make it work but I had to fix that also, https://github.com/switchdoclabs/SDL_Weather_80422
[23:57] <elacheche> *i have no idea about hardware pavlushka :(
[23:57] <u-la-la> [ GitHub - switchdoclabs/SDL_Weather_80422: Arduino Class for WeatherPiArduino using SwitchDoc Labs WeatherRack Argent Data Systems SparkFun Weather Sensors SEN-08942 ] - https://github.com
[23:57] <pavlushka> elacheche: me neither, so looking around
[23:59] <pavlushka> elacheche: but that said, the reed switch has no click function so my guess was then it is using magnetic moment as a click for a rotation count


[03:24] <cyphin> Anyone here using 12.10 daily?
[07:18] <Izzo> Anybody using Evolution with evolution-ews?
[07:19] <Izzo> ews throws a library error and doesn show up in the supported accounts list
[08:59] <zorael> Any known showstoppers I should know of before I do-release-upgrade?
[09:00] <ActionParsnip> not that i've seen but I always clean install personally
[10:58] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[11:02] <ActionParsnip> howdy
[12:39] <IdleOne> Anybody else seeing unbootable USB with the alpha3 iso?
[12:39] <IdleOne> using the Start up disk creator
[13:12] <BluesKaj> IdleOne, my 4 yr old pc doesn't have the usb boot option
[13:14] <IdleOne> I trying to figure out if the problem is Startup disk creator or the alpha3 iso. I also tried with unetbootin in Windows without success.
[13:15] <game2> BluesKaj: I use the plop bootloader to boot older systems from usb -- see http://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html
[13:17] <BluesKaj> game2, yes I have the plop method and disk etc , but burning to a cd for a clean install still works here
[13:18] <BluesKaj> dunno why usb install is being promoted, when there seem to be so many associated problems
[13:33] <game2> IdleOne: I have had a successful USB from alpha 3.  I was using precise to do it.  Haven't seen your problem.
[13:33] <IdleOne> I'm using alpha3 while trying to make a alpha3 USB
[13:39] <game2> uggh, I switched to using loopback iso files in grub, for faster booting and no media worries.
[15:41] <ls612> I have an issue running a virtual machine of 12.10 Alpha 3.
[15:41] <ls612> I try to run the guest additions for it, and i get http://imagebin.org/223786
[15:43] <wilee-nilee> ls612, the guest additions are for the host, what was the command yiou actual ran?
[15:44] <wilee-nilee> you actually*
[15:47] <ls612> http://imagebin.org/223787 (the Autorun.sh)
[15:49] <Daekdroom> wilee-nilee, the guest additions are for the guest.
[15:50] <Daekdroom> and the output says you should check /var/log/vboxadd-install.log
[15:51] <ls612> Daekdroom: Which OS would that be in?
[15:51] <Daekdroom> Guest, of course.
[15:51] <ls612> I'll go and pastebin that.
[15:52] <wilee-nilee> Daekdroom, I worded that wrong, my bad
[15:54] <wilee-nilee> I do so automatically I forget sometimes.
[15:56] <ls612> http://pastebin.com/24hPGaWZ
[16:00] <ls612> Daekdroom: does that help at all?
[16:03] <Daekdroom> I have absolutely no idea what caused that.
[16:03] <ls612> Could I have had a bad iso?
[16:04] <ls612> or is this a bug (it is still Alpha after all.)
[16:04] <Daekdroom> Unlikely, I think
[16:04] <Daekdroom> However, I should suggest you to try virtualbox-guest-dkms, virtualbox-guest-x11 and virtualbox-guest-utils packages on the guest machine.
[16:07] <ls612> Daekdroom: Should I submit this to the bugtracker?
[16:08] <Daekdroom> I'm not sure whether it is a Virtualbox or a Ubuntu bug.
[16:08] <Daekdroom> But you could try anyway. The worse that could happen is having the bug report invalidated.
[16:12] <ls612> Daekdroom: I already had the guest-xll and guest-utils packages, but not the guest-dkms packages.
[16:13] <ls612> In case you are wondering, I'm trying to run it in a widescreen (16:9) resolution adn the only options appearing are (4:3) resolutions.
[16:20] <ls612> Daekdroom: I installed those packages and then tried running the autorun.sh for the addons, and got the same error.
[16:37] <Daekdroom> ls612, I think you don't have to run autorun.sh from the ISO after you install those packages.
[16:38] <Daekdroom> The ISO and those packages install the very same thing.
[16:38] <ls612> Oh well, installing all of that stuff changed nothing. I sent a bug report https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox/+bug/1034484
[16:38] <ls612> I hope I did that right.
[21:40] <bkerensa> does anyone know of any blockers for upgrading 12.04 to 12.10?
[23:54] <zth> i upgraded a few packages from precise to quantal, but disabled the repos again now and want to revert completely to precise on those packages. only i cannot remember which they were lol. is there a way to "sync" my packages to whats available in the repos? that should fix it i guess


[15:28] <ion> cwillu: Still in TODO. :-) It might make it into 0.10, which Keybuk’s been working on full-time for a while now.


[07:58] <Ashiren> happy Caturday
[07:58] <Ashiren> :3 https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aEpEXqG_700bwp.webp
[09:29] <Ashiren> :3 https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aZ0vPO6_460swp.webp
[20:06] <Ashiren> :3 https://i.imgur.com/pNRxMw3.jpg


[04:44] <jam> morning all
[07:33] <Chipaca> moin moin moin
[07:57] <mup_> Issue operator#224 opened: [Idea] provide some form of scaffolding <Created by woutervb> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issue/224>
[07:58] <jam> morning Chipaca
[07:58] <Chipaca> jam: how's things?
[07:58] <jam> Pretty good. how are things with you?
[07:59] <Chipaca> jam: not bad. I'm not in hospital, so that's winning, right?
[07:59] <jam> Chipaca, yeah, not sick, stuck at home, but healthy and well fed. :)
[07:59] <Chipaca> jam: on a less serious note I managed to install windows on my work laptop without nuking the linux installation (not even grub) so that's also a plus
[08:00] <Chipaca> so that should help dell figure out what's going on with it without having to come out
[08:00] <jam> Chipaca, ah, dell requires Windows to do support?
[08:00] <Chipaca> normally i would've gone "i bought this with linux off of you, do your <grawlixes> job", but that would've meant sending someone out just to figure it out
[08:00] <jam> I'm surprised you didn't have to reinstall grub
[08:01] <Chipaca> jam: remote diagnostics, yes, apparently it's a windows-only thing
[08:01] <Chipaca> jam: me too! apparently uefi means windows is not as aggressive to the bootloader as it used to be
[08:03]  * Chipaca wonders what happened to issue 224
[08:03] <mup_> Issue #224: [Idea] provide some form of scaffolding <Created by woutervb> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issue/224>
[08:03] <Chipaca> yep, 404ing for me
[08:03] <jam> ran away ?
[08:03] <Chipaca> but mup seems to find it
[08:04] <jam> found it from https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/224
[08:04] <jam> Chipaca, mup has a bad url
[08:04] <jam> 'issue/224' vs 'issues/224'
[08:04] <Chipaca> ah
[08:04] <Chipaca> niemeyer: ^ that one's on you probably
[08:04] <Chipaca> the mup issue i mean :)
[08:09] <jam> Chipaca, the email from Sohini "Weekly Update". Elements we will be working to prioritize with the charmtech team
[08:09] <Chipaca> mhmm
[08:09] <jam> "Options" seems particularly misplaced, as options only exists because of reactive (AIUI)
[08:10] <jam> (they had an options section as a way to configure a layer, but since we use instantiation of a class as the way to 'bring in a component' it doesn't feel like you need YAML config.)
[08:10] <Chipaca> jam: I have no idea what that is, so I'll believe you =)
[08:10] <jam> unless I'm misunderstanding what they were trying to do.
[08:10] <jam> Chipaca, it sounds like we need to be having some form of discussion with whoever is asking for these things ):
[08:10] <jam> :)
[08:11] <Chipaca> I missed sohini yesterday with my hardware shenanigans, but will catch up today
[08:11] <niemeyer> Sorry, I'll get that mup issue fixed today.. waited to fix it in that batch of changes but missed it
[08:11] <jam> Debug as an action is something I'm curious about.
[08:11] <Chipaca> wait, tomorrow (it's moved)
[08:12] <Chipaca> jam: debug-as-an-action i imagine is "have an action that's just for using via debug-hook" but irunno
[08:13] <Chipaca> i'm good at imagining stuff :-|
[08:13] <jam> Chipaca, maybe. Or maybe it's 'juju run-action --wait debug' which dumps out a databag of stuff you might want to figure out what the charm is doing
[08:13] <jam> but as a line-item its a bit ill defined.
[08:17] <jam> Chipaca, I've been trying to think about how we could handle 'ensuring enough packages are installed by the time you get to your charm code'.
[08:18] <Chipaca> jam: any conclusions so far?
[08:18] <jam> The problem being you can't just put "import external_lib" at the top of your src/charm.py because when the install hook runs nothing is installed yet
[08:18] <jam> Chipaca, so I think you can do things like lazy importing (wait to import until you need it), and put it in install, but it all feels a bit cludgy.
[08:18] <Chipaca> jam: if it's just an import yes, the problem is if you need a system package, isn't it?
[08:18] <jam> I was considering being evil and saying that 'hooks/install' runs before Charm.on.install, and you can put your dependency handling in there.
[08:19] <jam> but you still have the problem of src/charm.py struggling to start up if you do it the 'natural' way
[08:19] <jam> Chipaca, right, so if you have "on_start(): import package"; but "on_install(): import ops.apt; ops.apt.install(python-package)"
[08:19] <jam> you could make it work
[08:19] <jam> but it does feel kludgy
[08:20] <Chipaca> jam: wait, why a python package?
[08:20] <Chipaca> 'system package' i meant something like postgres
[08:20] <jam> Chipaca, so for system packages generally, you can just apt install it during on_install so no problem
[08:20] <Chipaca> right
[08:20] <jam> the problem, IMO, is python packages needing to be installed before your charm can import them.
[08:20] <Chipaca> and python packages should be in the charm already
[08:21] <Chipaca> via the build step
[08:21] <Chipaca> (of course this is me living in the future where the build tool is done and platform is a thing)
[08:21] <jam> Chipaca, how does the PYTHONPATH get setup to find them?
[08:21] <Chipaca> jam: properly
[08:22] <Chipaca> :)
[08:22] <Chipaca> jam: but more seriously, via having the charm.py shepang point at something that sets up the pythonpath
[08:22] <jam> So *a* step needs to rewrite something for '/var/lib/juju/agents/unit-<foo-X>/charm/???' to be a place that we can satisfy imports from, right?
[08:23] <Chipaca> shebang*
[08:23] <Chipaca> jam: whether that something is a virtualenv python, or just a wrapper, i don't know yet (nor particularly care), but both would work
[08:23] <jam> Chipaca, but what rewrites that path?
[08:23] <jam> and what installs the venv?
[08:23] <Chipaca> jam: the build step
[08:24] <jam> Chipaca, how does that handle the fact that it installs to a different path-on-disk during 'juju deploy' ?
[08:24] <jam> relative paths?
[08:24] <jam> eg, what sets up the venv on the target system
[08:24] <jam> we package a python binary in the charm?
[08:25] <Chipaca> relative paths should work, we need to test that
[08:25] <Chipaca> otherwise things get even more interesting
[08:25] <Chipaca> i'd rather not ship a python binary in the charm but i'm not ideologically opposed to it
[08:26] <Chipaca> all it _should_ take in my mind is a wrapper to set up the environ before calling system python
[08:26] <Chipaca> but i have yet to carve out time to play with this
[08:26] <jam> Chipaca, does that wrapper end up being 'dispatch' ?
[08:27] <Chipaca> jam: that could work also
[08:27] <niemeyer> Isn't all that what we already have?
[08:27] <Chipaca> niemeyer: what do you mean?
[08:29] <niemeyer> I'm just trying to understand what the discussion was about.. it sounds like we have what was being described:
[08:30] <niemeyer> A wrapper that sets up Python paths and calls the charm, including known locations inside the charm in sys.path
[08:31] <Chipaca> niemeyer: are you still writing?
[08:32] <niemeyer> No :)
[08:32] <niemeyer> We need a mup plugin..
[08:32] <Chipaca> niemeyer: where do we have that wrapper?
[08:33] <niemeyer> Chipaca: dispatch, per jam note
[08:33] <Chipaca> niemeyer: where is it
[08:33] <Chipaca> the wrapper, where, on github, is it
[08:34] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Wasn't support for dispatch in jam's agenda?
[08:34] <Chipaca> niemeyer: you said we already have what was being described; where do we have it?
[08:36] <niemeyer> Chipaca: It's not implemented.. it's agreed, in jam's agenda, in juju development code as well.. I was simply asking if that's what the discussion was about.. not sure why we're now arguing about where in GitHub it is?
[08:37] <jam> I think the confusion is that we were discussing how it should hang together, and you seemed to claim that while we have plans for it, we haven't actually implemented those yet. And I was asking about concretely how it would/should function.
[08:37] <Chipaca> niemeyer: because "Isn't that what we already have?"  You know you can say "no, because...".. right?
[08:39] <niemeyer> Chipaca: I literally said "I'm just trying to understand"..
[08:39] <Chipaca> niemeyer: yes, now that I know what you meant, I can say that, but the discussion is still dead and needs resurrecting to continue it
[08:39] <Chipaca> yeah
[08:39] <niemeyer> Sorry, I'm stepping out.. I'm not in a good vibe to have this kind of discussion right now
[08:42] <stub> Might want to look at charms.reactive bootstrap process. It setup a virtualenv (so subordinates are insulated from version conflicts with primaries), installs python dependencies and deb packages, then reinvokes itself with the virtualenv interpreter.
[08:44] <jam> stub, indeed. I have looked at it a bit, though actually finding where the bits are is a bit convoluted, and hidden behind the various yaml definitions, etc.
[08:44] <jam> Trying to determine if the only way is to go via wheelhouses with full depedencies and isolated venvs
[08:44] <stub> I think it was mostly in layer:base
[08:44] <niemeyer> It also built stuff in production, which seems unwise
[08:44] <stub> wheelhouses were a pain because we want platform independent, and wheels are not always
[08:44] <niemeyer> But stub is right, it's some incarnation of that
[08:45] <jam> incarceration of that?
[08:45] <jam> :)
[08:45] <niemeyer> And we should definitely learn from it
[08:45] <niemeyer> jam: to much covid
[08:45] <niemeyer> too much
[08:47] <niemeyer> stub: Is there a way to avoid the platform dependency, though?
[08:47] <niemeyer> stub: I would love to justify having pure python charms, but the conversations so far make me believe we can't do without
[08:48] <stub> I think my problems were due to having old versions of setuptools/distutils etc. in the chain. And python dependencies that built C extensions even when they were told not too (looking at you cassandra client)
[08:48] <niemeyer> stub: Wheelhouses also feels like an insufficient solution in the sense we need to carry C lib dependencies, etc
[08:48] <niemeyer> stub: Building *in deployment* right?  Yeah, we need to kill that
[08:49] <stub> I think I hit both cases. Things building in deployment, and things building at build time and embedding platform dependent shared libraries.
[08:50] <stub> Yes, we want to avoid both.
[08:50] <niemeyer> stub: You mean shared libraries that have unsatisfied symbols at the target?
[08:50] <jam> stub, so why not use the platform libs for interacting with the platform app that you're installing?
[08:51]  * Chipaca steps out for a bit
[08:51] <stub> amd64 shared libraries getting embedded in the charm, which isn't going to work if someone tries to deploy on z-series
[08:51] <stub> jam: There are not always platform libraries, and offline deployments make pulling them in from PPAs a pain.
[08:52] <jam> (it feels like venvs reinvent the distribution problem, which is the point of distribution platforms)
[08:52] <stub> The cassandra charm needed to connect to cassandra, which has a really fat client with c extensions and a complex build and not in Ubuntu main or universe.
[08:53] <niemeyer> jam: Yeah, and I don't know how to get charms forward without us diving into that for the hundredth time
[08:53] <stub> The original charm pulled it in from a PPA. The reactive rewrite managed to get it from the wheelhouse.
[08:53] <niemeyer> I would love to just be able to say "charms need to be pure Python"
[08:53] <jam> stub, but still had to compile it for the arch?
[08:53] <niemeyer> But it sounds unrealistic
[08:54] <stub> jam: I think I managed to get it to avoid building the C extensions ('charm build' tries to enforce that, but it didn't work). But I would not be surprised to find amd64 specific shared libraries in the wheels.
[08:57] <stub> niemeyer: 'charms need to be pure Python' may well be the best approach. Bootstrap can inject platform specific binaries before the main charm.py is imported. Bootstrap installing deb packages would solve 90% of the use cases.
[08:58] <niemeyer> stub: The issue with recommending that is that we force charmers to become deb packagers as well.. and not only that.. we now need alternative binary deployment strategies for every platform
[08:58] <jam> stub, certainly the Juju model that charms are architecture independent was premised on arch specific things would be handled at the apt layer
[08:58] <jam> bbiab, making coffe
[08:58] <stub> Other 10% would be weirder stuff, like pulling a tarball from a Juju resource (say, a JVM). Or installing wheels from a wheelhouse.
[08:59] <niemeyer> stub: That's why I'm finding difficult to workaround the need for charms to become yet another binary package
[08:59] <stub> Yes, 'learn to package debs' is a high barrier to entry :-/
[08:59] <niemeyer> and distribute!
[09:00] <niemeyer> ... and even then not have a cross-platform strategy
[09:07] <stub> And it would be sad if it put a heavy burden on charmers dealing with the more common situation, where pure python and maybe a deb package from main.
[09:07] <niemeyer> Yeah, this case should remain simple
[09:15] <stub> Maybe it is just a case of declaring arch: ['amd64','arm64'] in metadata.yaml, and having arch/amd64 or arch/arm64 directories added to $PATH and $PYTHONPATH. Fat charms.
[09:17] <niemeyer> stub: Yeah, that sounds unavoidable as soon as we agree to do binaries
[09:17] <niemeyer> stub: Otherwise we have no control of the outcome whatsoever
[09:17] <niemeyer> stub: The new charm hub will also deal with multiple architectures gracefully
[09:17] <stub> The fat could move to resources, which could be intelligently pulled down (or attached at deploy time for offline deployments). But that is more complex.
[09:18] <niemeyer> So again we get back to the issue of building and organization of both the source and the result of that operation
[09:18] <niemeyer> facubatista has that on his agenda, but we don't have something clear yet
[09:18] <jam> stub, I think resources make a strong case for binary deps
[09:19] <niemeyer> stub: Agreed about resources
[10:45] <Chipaca> niemeyer: fwiw facu is waiting for feedback on the build tool email before continuing that work (because he isn't blocked on other fronts)
[10:47] <Chipaca> brb, rebooting into windows (eugh)
[11:10] <facubatista> Muy buenos días a todos!
[11:13]  * Chipaca now has to decide whether to be without his work laptop for at least a week, or be with an extremly slow laptop until the big Q is over
[11:14] <jam> morning facubatista
[11:14] <facubatista> hola jam
[11:14] <jam> Chipaca, they just extended ours 'indefinitely' (until further notice) :(
[11:15] <Chipaca> yeah :-(
[11:15] <Chipaca> ours isn't going away anytime soon
[11:15] <Chipaca> facubatista: ｇｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｄ  ｍｏｒｎｉｎｇ！
[11:16] <facubatista> Chipaca, hola!
[11:17]  * facubatista is reading previous conversation, why are we discussing AGAIN if we'll freeze a Python binary inside the charm, etc?
[11:18] <facubatista> do not discuss this again in the air, let's comment on the proto-spec I created, otherwise we're always in t0
[11:19] <Chipaca> facubatista: agreed
[11:19] <facubatista> "the problem, IMO, is python packages needing to be installed before your charm can import them." <-- this is already solved, I'm waiting feedback on that
[11:19] <Chipaca> facubatista: my intention is to play with this stuff based on your build tool thing, and get back to it
[11:23] <jam> niemeyer, shall we just cancel the weekly 1:1? We can always schedule time to chat when we have a topic instead.
[11:30] <jam> facubatista, I updated https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RHrOMbqsXz9qwk_3sHJ7AJOdlh-Mb-TkFUAtbXb37Og/edit# with a discussion of the plans for the Operator framework. Feel free to leave comments that we can use to help clarify anything.
[11:30] <facubatista> jam, thanks!
[11:39] <facubatista> jam, what do you mean with " The intent is that each of those handlers is maintaining its own state engine, "?
[11:39] <facubatista> jam, each method registered in my charm should maintain one state engine??
[11:41] <jam> facubatista, generally handlers are going to be maintaining some sort of state in response to events. And while they ultimately share some of that state, the intent is that you shouldn't ever stop sending them lifecycle events just because something else is also responding to it.
[11:41] <jam> facubatista, for your charm "have I written out the blog's static files" "do they need updating" feels like the state engine that you're using.
[11:41] <jam> the apache interaction of "have I configured apache to serve my files" is separate logic.
[11:42] <facubatista> mmm
[11:42] <facubatista> I wasn't planning to maintain that state, but maybe I'm too naive?
[11:42] <jam> I don't think it is usually explicitly model as a state machine, but functionally it is.
[11:43] <jam> facubatista, for simple charms, I feel it is perfectly fine to determine your state by querying the model, rather than storing it separately.
[11:43] <facubatista> if I get the install event it means that I have not written out the static files yet; if I get the upgrade event it means that the install ended correctly, and files are there, etc
[11:43] <jam> facubatista, but like the pgsql interface needs to know what you've requested of pg, and whether it has told you that it has done its preparations for you (what roles you need, what you want to call your database, etc.)
[11:44] <facubatista> jam, sorry, we're moving away from the static files example, right?
[11:44] <jam> facubatista, so Juju generally guarantees "at least once" events, and otherwise hooks should be idempotent. If something fails, it may call a hook >1 time.
[11:45] <jam> facubatista, yeah, I was giving a clearer example of a state machine. For static files, your plan seems fine.
[11:45] <jam> I don't know if there will be config, which might indicate you need to write new files, etc.
[11:45] <facubatista> I understand that idempotency, it's orthogonal to needing to have a state machine
[11:46] <facubatista> jam, I'm trying to parse you're sentence about pgsql, 1'
[11:49] <facubatista> jam, I'd really to "see" that pgsql example; in my mind when I instantiate the PG interface I will tell it whatever I need, then the interface when receives the relation event will configure the DB engine, and trigger the "all ready" event for me
[11:49] <jam> facubatista, correct. but that is the state engine that the DB component keeps track of.
[11:49] <jam> 'what did you ask for, has the DB told me that it is ready, ok, ready to fire the DB is ready event"
[11:50] <facubatista> my point is: no state machine is needed for that
[11:50] <facubatista> "what did you ask for" -> this is stored in the interface
[11:51] <facubatista> "has the DB told me that it is ready" -> this is what "receiving the relation event" means
[11:51] <facubatista> etc
[11:51] <facubatista> (that's why I need to "see" the code, maybe I'm missing parts and/or complexity here)
[12:01] <jam> facubatista, so that is still a state machine, even if you are storing the state in the interface
[12:01] <jam> Chipaca, did we forget to add a meet link to the bug revue calendar entry?
[12:01] <jam> just use standup?
[12:01] <Chipaca> jam: yeah let's just use standup
[12:01] <facubatista> jam, I'm not storing state for a state machine, I'm storing the asked DB engine config
[13:07] <mup_> Issue operator#161 closed: self.model.pod.set_spec should only be run on leader <Created by mthaddon> <Closed by niemeyer> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/161>
[14:41] <mup_> Issue operator#225 opened: BoundSharedState changed events is misnamed (or misleading) <Created by addyess> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/225>
[14:56]  * facubatista brb
[15:44]  * facubatista -> lunch
[16:18]  * facubatista is back
[17:05] <niemeyer> Alright.. off from the last call of the day, and calling it a day
[17:05] <niemeyer> Have a good eod folks
[17:06] <facubatista> niemeyer, have a nice rest
[17:27] <Chipaca> facubatista: i'm off as well. enjoy the evening solitude!
[17:28] <Chipaca> facubatista: or, don't. You do you.
[17:28]  * facubatista is alone in the office, turns the music volume on to the max
[20:08] <facubatista> niemeyer, ended trying to collect our thoughts here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1270Fl9c6NzfMMA71xkqTwyO5nUIyBO6GQnvy34wtH5w/edit#
[20:31]  * facubatista eods


[12:27]  * hyperair has discovered that the only way to reliably get TwoFingerEmulation to detect my two fingers is by using my thumb.
[12:27] <hyperair> which happens to be just one finger.
[12:32] <alf__> Hi all! It seems that mesa distributes three separate tarballs: MesaLib, MesaDemos, MesaGLUT
[12:34] <alf__> Does the Ubuntu mesa source package contain all of them in the orig.tar.gz tarball?
[12:34] <jcristau> demos and lib iirc
[12:35] <alf__> jcristau: thanks
[18:38] <bjsnider> Sarvatt, did nvidia change the paths in the driver again?
[22:13] <Nightrose> hi
[22:14] <Nightrose> is just upgraded my system and it decided to reboot in the middle of it
[22:14] <Nightrose> i finished the update from the command line and now it seems X is broken
[22:14] <Nightrose> can anyone help me with this?
[22:50] <alkisg> Hi, I'm trying to figure out a xorg memory problem. Opening this image with firefox makes xorg use an additional 120 MB of memory: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alkisg/tmp/xorg-memory.jpg
[22:51] <alkisg> While this image, with the same dimensions, doesn't: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alkisg/tmp/%20no-xorg-memory.jpg
[22:51] <alkisg> That 120 MB of xorg is only used temporarily, probably while the image is decoded
[22:51] <alkisg> So one needs to keep an eye on `top` as it only happens for a couple of seconds
[22:52] <alkisg> That memory need is huge, so it's crashing all the thin clients here...
[22:52] <alkisg> ...as xorg memory is local to the terminal client, and not on the server
[22:54] <alkisg> Where should I file it as a bug? xorg? firefox? some jpeg library?
[22:56] <alkisg> It only happens with firefox, not with e.g. eog
[22:57] <jcristau> could be X, could be your driver, could be firefox..
[23:01] <alkisg> It happens with both my nvidia drivers and on virtualbox, so I'd guess it's not the driver
[23:02] <alkisg> Ah, got it. It doesn't happen if I save the image as .png
[23:02] <alkisg> So it's probably a problem with the jpeg library used by firefox
[23:03] <alkisg> I don't know if that's possible, but it might be asking X for memory while decoding the image, instead of using C malloc...
[23:05] <Nightrose> anyone around who can help me get my system back into a running state please? i really need it to work :/
[23:07] <alkisg> Oooops sorry it did happen it just happened too fast and I didn't see it with `top`. The client still crashed though. :)
[23:38] <tormod> Nightrose, please use #ubuntu for support (but try sudo apt-get install)
[23:39] <Nightrose> i did finish the upgrade from command line afterwards