[00:35] <Laney> up
[07:52] <Nafai> Looking forward to Ubuntu Developer Week next week.  Help me get a leg up before I start my contract period on February 1.
[07:53] <Nafai> btw, I'm going to be working on app-indicator porting as a contractor
[07:58] <didrocks> sweet Nafai :)
[08:01] <Nafai> yeah, excited
[08:01] <Nafai> been starting to work on transmission to get a head start
[08:02] <didrocks> Nafai: transmission integration on app-indicator?
[08:02] <Nafai> yeah
[08:02] <didrocks> sounds great (even if I only use transmission-daemon on a server) ;)
[08:03] <Nafai> I hope y'all won't mind me asking workflow questions and stuff (bzr/launchpad, working with the packaging branches, etc)
[08:04] <Nafai> Just so I do things the way the team does things
[08:10] <didrocks> Nafai: I'll ask you GTK/Glib related question as a counter-part :)
[08:10] <didrocks> but no, don't be shy asking :)
[08:10] <Nafai> thanks!
[08:13] <Nafai> So what do you work on didrocks?
[08:14] <didrocks> Nafai: mosly UNE packaging, but those last two days, I was more focused on patching gdm :)
[08:14] <Nafai> cool
[08:14] <didrocks> adding some option to select default session on gdmsetup, don't save in .dmrc if we are using a failsafe session, etc.
[08:15] <Nafai> nice, the loss of features in the latest GDM is kind of annoying
[08:16] <didrocks> I agree, I've added default session support and submitted it upstream. Let's wait for a review
[08:21] <pitti> hey didrocks
[08:22] <didrocks> Guten Morgen pitti :)
[08:22]  * pitti waves to Nafai, good luck with the porting!
[08:22] <Nafai> Hey pitti.  Thanks!
[08:23] <Nafai> Should be fun and I'll be excited to be able to point to the panel in a Lucid install and say "Hey, I did that." :)
[08:23] <pitti> absolutely!
[08:24] <pitti> Nafai: which projects will you work on? (after transmission)
[08:24] <pitti> right, just ask here
[08:24] <pitti> Nafai: new contributors are always a good opportunity for us to update our documentation
[08:25] <pitti> Nafai: so please don't feel mistreated if we point you to docs first; let's discuss the open questions afterwards, and then we can clarify the pages
[08:25] <Nafai> good question, I've seen the bug list on launchpad of the projects that need porting, but I am unsure of the priorities
[08:25] <Nafai> pitti: Of course, if the answer is "hey, the docs are here", I'll take it :)
[08:25] <pitti> well, I guess they will be in a few priority buckets, not a total order
[08:25] <Nafai> Which, is this up-to-date and accurate: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bzr
[08:26] <Nafai> Right
[08:26] <pitti> Nafai: /Bzr is accurate wrt. the way the desktop team does _most_ of pacakges nowadays
[08:27] <pitti> Nafai: however, these days we are developing a new workflow with having the full source in bzr, and "package branches" (which look like lp:ubuntu/transmission)
[08:27] <pitti> Nafai: we don't use this approach yet for packages which we aren't upstream for, though
[08:27] <Nafai> Ah, okay
[08:27] <pitti> Nafai: but in general, if you have a package with a Vcs-Bzr: header, use that (debcheckout pkgname)
[08:27] <baptistemm> hello, good morning
[08:28] <pitti> Nafai: if you happen to stumble across a pacakge without a Vcs-Bzr: header, just ask here
[08:28] <pitti> (since we need to collectively decide what to do about it)
[08:28]  * Nafai nods
[08:30] <Nafai> after you do the debcheckout and your changes are to the source (that we aren't upstream for, like transmission), what's the best strategy for producing the .patches files that are needed?
[08:30] <Nafai> I've been doing a bzr bd-do and then copying over the directory in build-area and making the changes there, then producing a patch file from that and re-doing it
[08:31] <Nafai> (re-doing bzr bd-do to test after the patch file is in place)
[08:35] <didrocks> Nafai: it all depends on what patch system the package is using, you can have a look there to  have a presentation about them: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PatchSystems
[08:36] <Nafai> Awesome, thanks
[08:36] <didrocks> y/w  :)
[08:37] <didrocks> pitti: I'm looking at your update-gnome-menus-cache, the DesktopEntry module handle l10n itself and return the right Comment/Name in the desired language?
[08:40] <pitti> Nafai: re; yes, PatchSystems page is good; usually it's cdbs-edit-patch or quilt, depending on which patch system is in use
[08:41] <pitti> didrocks: correct, the cache files are per-locale
[08:41] <pitti> avoids expensive gettext
[08:41] <Nafai> looks like quilt for transmission
[08:41] <didrocks> pitti: I mean, you just load the file using the DesktopEntry python module. This one handle taking the right locale for you, right?
[08:42] <pitti> didrocks: well, you shouldn't load it manually at all
[08:42] <pitti> didrocks: it's only meant as a cache for libgnome-menu
[08:42] <didrocks> pitti: I was just curious and looking at your code, and as I didn't see any localisation handling, I was just curious :)
[08:42] <pitti> so if you do gmenu_tree_lookup("applications.menu"), it will use that
[08:43] <didrocks> Nafai: right, it's quilt for transmission
[08:43] <pitti> didrocks: /usr/share/applications/desktop.de_DE.utf8.cache
[08:43] <pitti> didrocks: i. e. it's encoded in the file name
[08:44] <didrocks> pitti: and what the difference between utf8, UTF8 and UTF-8 ?
[08:44] <pitti> didrocks: /usr/share/applications/desktop.de_DE.UTF-8.cache , sorry
[08:44] <pitti> .UTF-8 is the actual locale name
[08:44] <pitti> I'm not sure why there's an .utf8 file
[08:44] <pitti> oh
[08:44] <pitti> seems that changed recently
[08:45] <pitti> $ locale -a
[08:45] <pitti> [...]
[08:45] <pitti> de_DE.utf8
[08:45] <pitti> new glibc/
[08:45] <pitti> ?
[08:45] <didrocks> right, same here
[08:45] <pitti> didrocks: anyway, it has to match exactly the locale
[08:45] <didrocks> pitti: ok, thanks :)
[08:45] <pitti> the .UTF-8 is not "magic" in any way, it's just a convention
[08:46] <pitti> didrocks: FYI, /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED maps the names to encodings
[08:46] <pitti> didrocks: i. e. many UTF-8 locales don't have any suffix at all, since they are relatively new and _only_ available in UTF-8
[08:46] <pitti> ug_CN UTF-8
[08:46] <pitti> for example
[08:48] <didrocks> pitti: oh, ok, understood
[08:49] <didrocks> pitti: in that case, I'm just wondering why I have desktop.fr_FR.UTF8.cache too, which isn't in /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED
[08:50] <pitti> didrocks: look at the timestamp; I suspect it's from an older glibc
[08:50] <pitti> 2010-01-19 08:54 /usr/share/applications/desktop.de_DE.UTF-8.cache
[08:50] <pitti> 2010-01-22 00:33 /usr/share/applications/desktop.de_DE.utf8.cache
[08:50] <pitti> i. e. the "old" names aren't built any more
[08:51] <didrocks> pitti: right, something should have happened around the 2010-01-16 :)
[08:52] <didrocks> triggers seem easy to implement (still looking at your patch)
[08:53] <didrocks> in fact, we are still fetching /usr/share/applications/ desktop file and locale one
[08:55] <chrisccoulson> good morning everyone
[08:57] <didrocks> hey chrisccoulson
[08:57] <pitti> hey chrisccoulson
[08:57] <chrisccoulson> hey pitti didrocks, how are you both?
[08:57] <pitti> chrisccoulson: so, my xrdb patch worked; we are booting 4 mm faster now :)
[08:58] <chrisccoulson> pitti - excellent :)
[08:58]  * pitti uses a ruler to measure bootchart distance between g-d-m and last red line
[08:58] <seb128mini> hey
[08:58] <seb128mini> what is excellent?
[08:58] <pitti> look! a miniature seb128!
[08:58] <seb128mini> lol
[08:58] <pitti> seb128mini:    │
[08:58] <seb128mini> laptop is fscking for 15 minutes
[08:59] <pitti> seb128mini: pitti | chrisccoulson: my xrdb patch worked; we are booting 4 mm faster now :)
[08:59] <chrisccoulson> miniature seb = seb32
[08:59] <pitti> and it only took me until 1 am
[08:59] <seb128mini> so I figured I would test empathy IRC now
[08:59] <seb128mini> lol
[08:59]  * pitti pats seb128mini
[08:59]  * seb128mini hugs pitti
[09:00] <pitti> if you work really really hard and learn GNOME, then, maybe, one day, you can become almost as good as our famous seb128!
[09:00] <chrisccoulson> lol
[09:00] <seb128mini> let's see
[09:00] <seb128mini> I feel I still have a way to go before that
[09:00] <didrocks> salut seb128mini :)
[09:00] <seb128mini> I'm trying to figure for now why I can't enable bluetooth on this box
[09:00] <seb128mini> lut didrocks
[09:01] <pitti> seb128mini: as in the bios or in the applet?
[09:01] <seb128mini> the gnome-bluetooth "enable bluetooth" button does nothing
[09:01]  * pitti usually disables BT in the bios
[09:01] <pitti> it's just a power sink
[09:01] <didrocks> seb128mini: rick told me that the BIOS power off it
[09:01] <seb128mini> let me try that
[09:01] <didrocks> ok, not typing fast enough :)
[09:01] <seb128mini> my laptop managed to boot
[09:03] <chrisccoulson> i can't get lucid to boot at all anymore
[09:04] <chrisccoulson> not even the live CD :(
[09:04] <seb128> oh?
[09:04] <chrisccoulson> it hangs at "SMP alternatives: switching to UP code"
[09:04] <seb128> did you try picking old linux version in grub?
[09:04] <seb128> bluetooth is on in the bios
[09:05] <asac> hi seb128
[09:05] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - not yet. i'll try that later when i get in from work though
[09:05] <asac> got asked on whether gnome-shell moves to libseed ;)?
[09:05] <seb128> asac, there is no such plan
[09:05] <seb128> that has been discussed in the past though
[09:05] <seb128> but gnome-shell people feel they have enough to do on gnome-shell itself to get it working
[09:06] <seb128> out of rewritting it to use a different js
[09:06] <asac> right. maybe can you point them to our plan to demote xulrunner and its js lib to universe (or even remove it completely)
[09:06] <asac> ?
[09:06] <asac> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-new-firefox-support-model
[09:07] <seb128> I could
[09:13] <seb128> asac, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2009-November/msg00028.html
[09:13] <asac> thanks
[09:14] <pitti> seb128, chrisccoulson: I'm curious, what's the status of Chris' "weaker gconf dependency" patches? is it still worth uploading them?
[09:14] <seb128> pitti, they are pretty useless as long as we don't solve the seahorse case
[09:14] <seb128> but either not running it
[09:15] <seb128> (I'm still not sure why we need the daemon)
[09:15] <pitti> seb128: ah, is that the gap between ssh-agent and seahorse-daemon? just waiting on gconf?
[09:15] <seb128> apparently when not running it people got warning when first trying the nautilus context menu option to encrypt a file etc
[09:15] <seb128> yes
[09:16] <seb128> chrisccoulson delayed gconf use to after the g-s-d session registration
[09:16] <pitti> well, we primarily need this for injecting the env vars into the session, no?
[09:16] <seb128> out of the fact that it does start seahorse
[09:16] <seb128> which does query gconf
[09:16] <pitti> hm, is anyone working on this already?
[09:16] <pitti> if not, it sounds like it could become my Monday project
[09:16] <seb128> pitti, it's not the agent it's the daemon
[09:17] <seb128> I don't see any environment variable due to it
[09:17] <seb128> chrisccoulson said he would I think
[09:17] <seb128> not sure it's that still the case
[09:17] <pitti> today I'm too busy with release/bureaucracy/email/meeting stuff, but I should be able to continue boot speed work on Monday
[09:18] <seb128> I want to have a look at xdg-user-dirs-gtk-update today
[09:18] <seb128> it's not doing a lot but still it seems stupid to run that at every login just to see if you default dirs changed
[09:19] <seb128> defaults being download, music, video,..
[09:22] <Nafai> I'm going to try to sleep.  UTC-7 here.  :)
[09:22] <vish> seb128: evolution-indicator 0.2.6-0ubuntu2 , seems to fix Bug #436755 ,  is it still open for a reason? [ seems the lp janitor didnt close the lp bug , missed mentioning bug# ?]
[09:23] <vish> want me to close it?
[09:24] <seb128> vish, yes please,
[09:24] <vish> ok , thanks
[09:25] <didrocks> pitti: seb128: clutk needs some bin NEW approval: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clutk/0.3.8-0ubuntu2/+build/1459566
[09:26] <chrisccoulson> pitti / seb128 - yeah, i was going to look at seahorse-daemon in the next few days to understand what it's doing when it starts up
[09:26] <pitti> chrisccoulson: ok, great
[09:26] <chrisccoulson> my existing gnome-session / g-s-d / gconf patches delay gconf use until the xsettings plugin loads
[09:26] <seb128> didrocks, doing that
[09:26] <didrocks> thanks seb128 :)
[09:26] <chrisccoulson> it's only the xrandr plugin so far that can run without gconf
[09:27] <pitti> njpatel, seb128, chrisccoulson: so perhaps I'll profile mutter then (the non-UNE bits)
[09:28] <seb128> pitti, if you want to
[09:28] <seb128> pitti, I'm not convinced it's the best use of our ressources right now
[09:28] <pitti> seb128: please suggest something better
[09:28] <pitti> it seems the seahorse one is now the bottleneck
[09:28] <seb128> pitti, seems upstream people will get that one faster over time
[09:28] <seb128> well you can probably work on mutter
[09:28] <pitti> but if chrisccoulson is on that already
[09:29] <seb128> but it will take a while to learn it
[09:29] <seb128> where upstream seems to know what to change and will do it over time
[09:29] <baptistemm> hello seb128, pitti and chrisccoulson
[09:30] <chrisccoulson> hey baptistemm
[09:30] <chrisccoulson> how much time does the "start everything at once" change gain?
[09:31] <seb128> chrisccoulson, none
[09:31] <chrisccoulson> hmmmm :-/
[09:31] <seb128> seems start earlier
[09:32] <seb128> but it's traded for extra conflicts and too much activity
[09:32] <seb128> like extra context switches etc
[09:32] <pitti> it's just a potential win so far
[09:33] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i had a thought about maybe restructuring the startup in to 3 phases instead of 5 (so, you have the initialization phase as we do currently, then a middle phase for starting stuff we would consider to make a usable session, and then start everything else at the end)
[09:34] <chrisccoulson> and perhaps we could even delay some things starting - eg, gnome-screensaver used to be spawned by g-s-d after a delay, but since it's being started by gnome-session now, it starts straight away - but it doesn't need to really
[09:34] <seb128> that's sort what we did there
[09:34] <seb128> I kept things in the init pahse
[09:34] <seb128> phase
[09:34] <seb128> and moved things away from the wm and panel one
[09:35] <seb128> so you would have application and extra-application?
[09:35] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - so, we just use 2 phases now?
[09:35] <seb128> yes
[09:35] <seb128> init and applis
[09:35] <pitti> chrisccoulson: seahorse> I still don't get why seahorse should block everything else (conceptually) -- the only necessary thing is to inject the session env variables, and those don't need gconf; everything else can just start much later on; am I missing something?
[09:36] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i was thinking about adding another key to the autostart files to allow you to specify a delay (eg, start after 10 seconds or so)
[09:36] <seb128> pitti, as said before I don't think there is any variable
[09:36] <pitti> SSH_AGENT_PID=2047
[09:36] <pitti> GPG_AGENT_INFO=/tmp/seahorse-8vocQ9/S.gpg-agent:2067:1
[09:36] <seb128> pitti, that gnome-keyring for ssh
[09:36] <seb128> and gpg is seahorse-agent
[09:36] <seb128> which is not in the default install
[09:36] <pitti> ah
[09:36] <seb128> the issue there is seahorse-daemon
[09:37] <pitti> hm, is that not SSH_AGENT_PID?
[09:37] <seb128> no
[09:37] <pitti> ^ that shoudl be from the ss-agent wrapper, but that should be really quick
[09:37] <seb128> ssh is keyring
[09:37] <seb128> not seahorse
[09:37] <seb128> gnome-keyring is the ssh agent
[09:37] <pitti> oh, I thought seahorse provided the GUI for password
[09:37] <seb128> it does
[09:38] <seb128> it has the gui
[09:38] <seb128> but you can use gnome-keyring with the capplet
[09:38] <seb128> just type your passwords
[09:38] <vuntz> seb128: pretty sure GPG_AGENT_INFO is seahorse-agent
[09:38] <seb128> seahorse is a manager gui
[09:38] <seb128> vuntz, it is but we don't install that by default
[09:38] <vuntz> ah, that's another story :-)
[09:38] <seb128> vuntz, the issue in boot is seahorse-daemon
[09:38] <seb128> which I'm not sure what it does
[09:39] <vuntz> oh, hrm
[09:39] <seb128> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587539
[09:39] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, i can't see why seahorse-daemon blocks the session from starting actually
[09:39] <vuntz> "something"
[09:39] <seb128> we used to have a gconf key condition
[09:39] <chrisccoulson> it fork's straight away
[09:39] <seb128> but apparently people were getting an error on first use
[09:39] <vuntz> "seahorse-daemon - seahorse pass phrase caching agent"
[09:39] <seb128> chrisccoulson, it triggers gconf
[09:40] <seb128> vuntz, that's a lie
[09:40] <seb128> seahorse-agent is that
[09:40] <vuntz> that's the man page
[09:40] <vuntz> okay, it does at least the "share gpg keys with avahi" part
[09:40] <seb128> which is something any desktop user want...
[09:41] <seb128> see the bug I pointed
[09:41] <seb128> it used to be conditional on a gconf key
[09:41] <seb128> which was off by default
[09:41] <seb128> but it triggers some bug
[09:41] <vuntz> yeah
[09:42] <vuntz> just remove X-GNOME-Autostart-Phase, I guess
[09:42] <vuntz> as long as it doesn't set any environment variable with gnome-session, it should not be done in Initialization
[09:43] <chrisccoulson> yeah, it doesn't seem to AFAICT
[09:43] <pitti> trying here
[09:47] <pitti> yay, that looks better
[09:47] <pitti> now it's blockign on g-s-d (which is what chrisccoulson has a patch for?)
[09:47] <chrisccoulson> well, it will need to block for a little bit on g-s-d, but i just need to see if i can make it faster
[09:48] <vuntz> pitti: the question is of course: do all the gpg feature work fine in the destkop? :-)
[09:48] <pitti> trying with ssh
[09:48] <pitti> vuntz: gpg is seahorse-plugins, we don't install that by default anywawy
[09:49] <pitti> yep, works great
[09:50] <pitti> chrisccoulson: ^
[09:50] <chrisccoulson> excellent :)
[09:51] <pitti> should I just upload this?
[09:52] <pitti> ah, I'll try on my desktop with gpg
[09:52] <seb128> pitti, no it's not
[09:52] <seb128> pitti, see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587632
[09:52] <seb128> pitti, the issue was not an agent one
[09:56] <pitti> so, at least ssh and gpg agent still work
[09:57] <seb128> righr
[09:57] <seb128> gnome-keyring has not changed
[09:57] <seb128> and seahorse-agent is a different thing
[09:57] <pitti> seb128: hm, I'm afraid I either don't understand or can't reproduce that bug
[09:57] <seb128> no reason seahorse-daemon should impact on those
[09:57] <seb128> pitti, well try to drop seahorse-daemon and to open the seahorse capplet after boot
[09:57] <seb128> pitti, or to right click and sign a file in nautilus
[09:58] <pitti> seb128: hang on, maybe we are talking about different things
[09:58] <pitti> seb128: the only thing that I did was to comment X-GNOME-Autostart-Phase=Initialization
[09:58] <pitti> it's still autostarted
[09:58] <seb128> oh ok
[09:58] <pitti> that bug is talking about an autostart condition
[09:58] <seb128> I though you dropped it from the session
[09:58] <pitti> no
[09:58] <seb128> pitti, we use to have that to false
[09:58] <seb128> pitti, ie to not start the daemon at all
[09:58] <pitti> it just starts later, together with everything else
[09:58] <seb128> which I was wondering we could get working
[09:59] <seb128> I don't get why it could be spawned on deman
[09:59] <seb128> demand
[09:59] <seb128> since it doesn't export anything
[09:59] <seb128> it should just be a dbus service
[09:59] <pitti> "couldn't"?
[09:59] <seb128> yes sorry
[09:59] <pitti> right, ideally
[09:59] <pitti> but this already helps to take it out of the critical path
[09:59] <seb128> which somewhat works
[09:59] <seb128> the bug says it works on second try
[09:59] <seb128> so it gets spawned
[09:59] <seb128> but the client side fails to wait on that
[09:59] <seb128> or to retry or something
[10:00] <seb128> well it's out of delay
[10:00] <seb128> but will still have the "too much activity"
[10:00] <pitti> seb128: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/daniel-lucid-20100122-seahorse.png
[10:01] <pitti> right, of course it would be even better to not start it at all
[10:02]  * pitti purges seahorse for comparison
[10:06] <pitti> seb128: ^ a tad faster (could be noise or for real, just have one chart for each)
[10:07]  * pitti puts on the tech lead hat for a bit and does RM stuff
[10:08] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i was going to ask if you could get a chart with the xrandr g-s-d plugin disabled. i wouldn't mind seeing how long it blocks for
[10:10] <pitti> chrisccoulson: generating
[10:10] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[10:10] <pitti> chrisccoulson: does it do anything by default in the first place?
[10:10] <pitti> chrisccoulson: I mean, without a monitors.xml
[10:10] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: do you still have the link about blog posts on speed improvement in GNOME?
[10:12] <chrisccoulson> pitti - AFAIK, it will still make calls to the server to get the screen resources etc, and it also listens to events too
[10:12] <chrisccoulson> i need to look at that in more depth though
[10:12] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - i've got the links on my home PC unfortunately (and i'm at work atm)
[10:12] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: ok, I'll ping you then. I've read them 6 months ago and would like to find them again :)
[10:14] <cassidy> seb128, hi. We released telepathy-glib 0.10.0 yesterday, which start the new 0.10.x stable branch. You should probably ship this one with Lucid
[10:14] <cassidy> package is already in Debian I think
[10:15] <seb128> yes, I noticed the upload in the debian changes list
[10:15] <chrisccoulson> pitti - just to point out as well (although you've probably worked it out already) - gnome-session doesn't really start where the bootchart says it starts. in Xsession.d, ssh-agent fork's, and the parent then execve's gnome-session
[10:15] <pitti> chrisccoulson: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/daniel-lucid-20100122-no-xrandr.png  vs. http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/daniel-lucid-20100122-with-xrandr.png
[10:15] <seb128> yes, I noticed the upload in the debian changes list
[10:15] <seb128> cassidy, will sync
[10:15] <seb128> cassidy, thanks
[10:15] <chrisccoulson> so the gnome-session bar on your bootchart used to be ssh-agent
[10:15] <chrisccoulson> or something like that
[10:15] <vuntz> ssh-agent?
[10:15] <seb128> mvo, hey
[10:15] <vuntz> can you please get rid of it if there's gnome-keyring?
[10:15] <mvo> hi seb128
[10:16] <seb128> mvo, trying pygobject?
[10:16] <seb128> or tried rather
[10:16] <mvo> not yet, I do this now
[10:16] <seb128> thanks
[10:17] <chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks. so the xrandr plugin takes around 200ms
[10:17] <vuntz> chrisccoulson: fwiw, if the randr plugin of g-s-d doesn't do the work of getting screen resources (which is expensive only the first time someone does it), gnome-panel will do it
[10:17] <pitti> chrisccoulson: so AFAICS, the xranrd plugin costs us 2 mm of app start delay and an extra 3 mm CPU time in g-s-d
[10:17] <pitti> (yay for scientific measurement)
[10:18] <chrisccoulson> vuntz - i was just interested to know how long the probing takes - i wasn't considering disabling it
[10:20] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i will have some other changes for you to try later
[10:20] <chrisccoulson> (i need to refresh my packages first though, with the latest changes)
[10:25] <pitti> seb128, chrisccoulson: so, as an intermediate step I'd take out the seahorse AutoStartPhase=init, and add another WI to fix it for spawning on demand; ok for you?
[10:26] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, i think so
[10:27]  * chrisccoulson really needs to understand how all this seahorse and gnome-keyring stuff works
[10:28] <pitti> hm, http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/ is still not updating
[10:30] <chrisccoulson> seahorse-daemon only communicates via dbus doesn't it?
[10:31] <chrisccoulson> so it should just be a case of adding a .service file right?
[10:31] <chrisccoulson> ^^^seb128?
[10:31] <pitti> dp/usr/share/dbus-1/services/org.gnome.seahorse.service
[10:31] <pitti> it's _supposed_ to work already, AFAIUI
[10:31] <pitti> chrisccoulson: just causes gnome bug 587632 apparently
[10:31] <seb128> it does get spawned, users get it working on second try
[10:32] <seb128> it's just that whatever is calling it doesn't wait or retry
[10:32] <chrisccoulson> right, that's because it fork's before the dbus interface is registered
[10:32] <chrisccoulson> (most probably)
[10:35] <TeTeT> asac: hi, any update on question 98187/bug 421673
[10:35] <TeTeT> asac: or do you think I should raise it on the nm list?
[10:36] <asac> didnt catch dan yet
[10:36] <asac> unfortunately
[10:36] <asac> TeTeT: yes, pinging nm-list is a good idea
[10:39] <TeTeT> asac: ok, will send an email there
[10:45] <baptistemm> pitti, If I read well, you were interested by mutter? so  https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607746  might worth a sight
[10:45] <baptistemm> same applies for metacity but I doubt it is used by default for ubuntu, right?
[10:46] <pitti> seb128, chrisccoulson: FYI, I updated and regrouped the WIs on https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-startup-speed
[10:47] <pitti> baptistemm: thanks for pointing out
[10:47] <baptistemm> you're welcome, I just a hub which transmit data, not that much
[10:47] <pitti> baptistemm: metacity> not right now, but also it's very harmless during startup
[10:47] <tgpraveen> when will firefox be updated to 3.6 in lucid?
[10:48] <baptistemm> the real solution would be to make gconf smarter, which been discussed for years, but no one sat down and worked on it
[10:49] <baptistemm> and the win would be global ...
[10:50] <seb128> baptistemm, it's called dconf
[10:50] <tseliot> chrisccoulson: how do you intend to speed up the xrandr plugin of the gnome-settings-daemon? (just curious)
[10:50] <baptistemm> does it work? I never tried it.
[10:52] <seb128> baptistemm, it's being worked
[10:59] <chrisccoulson> tseliot - i can't answer that until i've looked at it properly, but, the 200ms it currently takes to load is an opportunity for initializing gconf in parallel (as the xrandr plugin doesn't need gconf, and the whole session currently blocks on that initializing). if gconfd can parse all the default values inside that 200ms and be ready for the next g-s-d plugin, then there is some win there
[10:59] <chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks. sorry, i had to disappear for a bit
[11:00] <tseliot> chrisccoulson: yes, g-s-d only checks whether the randr plugin is enabled or not in gconf
[11:01] <chrisccoulson> tseliot - i've got a patched g-s-d to hardcode the xrandr plugin to enabled, so that it starts without checking gconf
[11:01] <chrisccoulson> it would mean that users could never disable it, but i don't think that's an issue really
[11:01] <tseliot> chrisccoulson: yes, most of them use it
[11:18] <chrisccoulson> pitti - do you know if bug 510907 is actually meant to work?
[11:18] <pitti> re
[11:18] <chrisccoulson> it doesn't seem to be implemented in g-p-m at all
[11:19] <pitti> uh, no idea I'm afraid
[11:19] <chrisccoulson> i thought that worked
[11:20] <chrisccoulson> i wonder if the functionality worked properly when g-p-m handled the inhibitors
[11:21] <seb128> somebody should be working on g-p-m
[11:22] <seb128> it's a shame we get such a crap experience on such basic things
[11:22] <seb128> like screen dimming not working as expected
[11:22] <seb128> or battery estimation not working
[11:23] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, that sucks a bit. i'm limited with how much i can do with g-p-m, as i don't have a laptop and my desktop won't suspend anyway
[11:23] <chrisccoulson> i need to purchase a laptop and then i can fix those things )
[11:23] <seb128> my main annoyance is dim not going back to where it was
[11:24] <seb128> like put what you like to work on while on battery
[11:24] <seb128> walk away 30 seconds
[11:24] <seb128> come back and touch the keyboard
[11:24] <seb128> it goes back to default dim level
[11:24] <seb128> not to what you set
[11:24] <seb128> I keep fighting that
[11:24] <chrisccoulson> oh, that doesn't work? that might be an easy one to fix
[11:24] <seb128> like every time I turn away from the computer 30 seconds I've to fix dim
[11:25] <seb128> no, it doesn't work since hardy...
[11:56] <tgpraveen> when will firefox be updated to 3.6 in lucid?
[12:24] <chrisccoulson> awesome, my weekend starts in 30 minutes. i can do some ubuntu work then :)
[12:24] <asac> lucky you ;)
[12:25] <seb128> hehe
[12:26] <seb128> asac, do you know if "no way to turn bluetooth on" is a known issue on the dell mini10v?
[12:26] <seb128> asac, do you know if "no way to turn bluetooth on" is a known issue on the dell mini10v? and what would be useful in a bug?
[12:26] <seb128> asac, do you know if "no way to turn bluetooth on" is a known issue on the dell mini10v? and what would be useful in a bug?
[12:26] <seb128> arg
[12:26] <seb128> sorry
[12:26] <asac> 3?
[12:26] <asac> hehe
[12:26] <pitti> Riddell: can I hand bug 487415  to you?
[12:26] <seb128> focus...
[12:26] <asac> seb128: if you downgrade to karmic version, does it work?
[12:26] <asac> otherwise its probably still driver
[12:26] <seb128> asac, the capplet has this "enable bluetooth" button
[12:26] <seb128> which does nothing
[12:27] <seb128> asac, downgrade what? gnome-bluetooth?
[12:27] <asac> yes, and the libs
[12:27] <seb128> is there a command line way to enable it?
[12:27] <^arky^> Hi, any compiz packing team member help me patch bug 507964
[12:27] <asac> seb128: rfkill command you can try
[12:27] <Riddell> pitti: sure
[12:27] <asac> run rfkill list
[12:28] <asac> and then use rfkill unblock
[12:28] <seb128> asac, it lists everything at no
[12:28] <seb128> not soft blocked, not hard blocked
[12:29] <asac> please check downgrading then. gnome-bluetooth use the same info
[12:29] <asac> that you get from there
[12:29] <seb128> ok
[12:29] <seb128> thanks
[12:29] <asac> just directly from kernel
[12:30] <asac> seb128: also run bluetooth-applet  with -d
[12:30] <asac> it spits out stuff about killswitch
[12:30] <asac> and why it does what
[12:31] <seb128> it just lists some killswitch state is 1
[12:31] <seb128> trying downgrading
[12:31] <seb128> one minute
[12:31] <asac> thx
[12:33] <seb128> doesn't work either
[12:33] <seb128> but it spits a reading of rkfill events failed now
[12:33] <seb128> need to go for lunch
[12:33] <seb128> I will look at that after lunch
[12:34] <seb128> thanks
[12:34] <^arky^> Hi, any compiz packing team member help me patch bug 507964
[12:41] <pitti> chrisccoulson: do you know the status of bug 447431 ? it seems to have died down
[12:42] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i keep trying to put some time in to it, but never get round to it
[12:43] <chrisccoulson> i investigated the issue, and understand what it is, but i need to put my findings in to the bug report
[12:43] <pitti> chrisccoulson: don't worry, just wanted to know about the state; so you think it's still an issue?
[12:43] <chrisccoulson> i can do that this afternoon though
[12:43] <pitti> chrisccoulson: no hurry
[12:43] <pitti> I'm just writing reports
[12:43] <chrisccoulson> pitti - probably. i'll have a look today and dump the contents of my brain in to the bug report :)
[12:44] <pitti> this is the kind of bug which is fine to fix later on in the cycle
[12:44] <pitti> but thanks!
[12:44] <chrisccoulson> no worries
[12:55] <virkang> hi everyone
[12:57] <virkang> can someone tell me if there is some data backup project that will be in main for the upcoming releases of ubuntu-desktop ?
[13:04] <pitti> bacula has been in main for ages
[13:04] <pitti> but that's more like a large-scale solution
[13:04] <pitti> we don't have an easy desktop-ish clicky-clicky solution right now, I'm afraid
[13:05] <pitti> rsnapshot/rsync are a great and robust workhorse, but need understanding CLI
[13:05] <pitti> http://www.piware.de/2009/11/my-desktop-backup-solution/ FWIW
[13:06] <virkang> thx pitti
[13:07] <virkang> I heard that in the Lucid release, there will be a desktop "clicky clicky" solution, is that true ?
[13:07] <asac> .desktop file parser ... C or python ... anyone?
[13:09] <pitti> kenvandine: could you please update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus for DX integration?
[13:09] <pitti> Riddell: could you please update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus for Kubuntu?
[13:10] <Riddell> ack
[13:11] <pitti> seb128: "pull new f-spot with edit capabilities in viewer mode" -> is that in jeopardy for alpha-3? (i. e. are we blocking on coding work from upstream, etc.)?
[13:11] <pitti> Riddell: thanks
[13:11] <chrisccoulson> asac - are you looking for some generic code to parse desktop files?
[13:13] <asac> yes
[13:13] <asac> a lib at best
[13:13] <asac> or something
[13:14] <asac> at best two way (e.g. serialize + deserialize) ... but i can live with read only ;)
[13:14] <chrisccoulson> asac - have you looked at eggdesktopfile (bundled with some gnome applications, such as gnome-session)?
[13:15] <asac> thx will check it ;)
[13:15]  * asac dislikes code copying ;)
[13:16] <tjaalton> pitti: hey, do you have power & time to push xf86-input-wacom through NEW?
[13:20] <chrisccoulson> asac - if you're not keen on copying, then libgnome-desktop might be useful too (in fact, i think you can save desktop files with that). it's currently undocumented though
[13:21] <chrisccoulson> anyway, home time for me now. bbl :)
[13:21] <asac> hmm. thats a tough dependency i guess ... e.g. half of gnome
[13:22] <vuntz> hrm, http://library.gnome.org/devel/gnome-desktop/stable/gnome-desktop-GnomeDesktopItem.html is not what I would called undocumented
[13:22] <kenvandine> pitti, sure
[13:23] <vuntz> it's far from being perfect, though
[13:27] <pitti> tjaalton: ah, package rename? sure, will look now
[13:28] <tjaalton> pitti: yes, no kernel bits anymore etc
[13:28] <tjaalton> thanks
[13:28] <asac> [VOTE] is CHROMIUM_FLAGS=${CHROMIUM_USER_FLAGS:-"$CHROMIUM_FLAGS"}  a bashism?
[13:28] <asac> :)
[13:29] <asac> maybe i should have used -devel
[13:29] <pitti> tjaalton: I'll remove the obsolete source then
[13:29] <tjaalton> pitti: yeah
[13:29] <pitti> and put it straight into main
[13:29] <pitti> asac: voting on mathematically decidable questions? o_O
[13:29] <pitti> asac: (no, it's not)
[13:30] <pitti> but it still doesn't make sense
[13:30] <asac> wasnt sure if someone knew all the specs for sure ... so wanted opinions ;)
[13:30] <asac> comment says:
[13:30] <seb128> pitti, sorry but go over my workload limit
[13:30] <seb128> got
[13:31] <asac> # Prefer user defined CHROMIUM_USER_FLAGS (fron env) over system
[13:31] <asac> # default CHROMIUM_FLAGS (from /etc/$APPNAME/default)
[13:31] <asac> CHROMIUM_FLAGS=${CHROMIUM_USER_FLAGS:-"$CHROMIUM_FLAGS"}
[13:31] <pitti> seb128: I just want to know whether it's blocked or just needs to be done (like, someone else could package a new upstream version, too, etc.)
[13:32] <pitti> asac: looks okay to me
[13:32] <didrocks> someone know what's the difference between /desktop/gnome/applications/window_manager/default and /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager?
[13:33] <pitti> asac: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ 2.6.2
[13:33] <seb128> pitti, basically upstream decided to do that change with some refactoring
[13:33] <seb128> pitti, so it's not trivial to backport
[13:33] <pitti> seb128: do we need to?
[13:33] <seb128> pitti, and I neither know gtk# enough nor have time for it
[13:34] <seb128> pitti, to what? to have the edit options?
[13:34] <asac> pitti: thanks.
[13:34] <pitti> seb128: like, why do we need to backport? why not just package a new version?
[13:35] <seb128> pitti, because there is no new version
[13:35] <seb128> pitti, the change is in git in a  0.7 serie
[13:35] <seb128> which has no tarball
[13:35] <seb128> and which I'm not sure will be stable for lucid
[13:35] <pitti> seb128: ah, I see
[13:35] <pitti> seb128: thanks for the heads-up
[13:37] <seb128> pitti, np, sorry about that
[13:37] <seb128> pitti, I feel I can keep up with things right now
[13:38] <seb128> between boot speed, GNOME updates, bugs, and those side hacks
[13:38] <seb128> too much to do
[13:38] <pitti> seb128: that's why I have an eye on those stragglers, and want to know their status :)
[13:38] <pitti> so taht we can reassign/defer/etc.
[13:38] <pitti> tjaalton: done
[13:39] <tjaalton> pitti: great, thanks. just in time to play with my new wacom during the weekend :)
[13:39] <seb128> pitti, let me know if I should reshuffle priorities and how
[13:39] <seb128> pitti, thanks ;-)
[13:40] <seb128> pitti, I would say we should forget the app selection changes for lucid now
[13:40] <seb128> pitti, we don't have the bandwith to take over f-spot changes and pitivi this cycle
[13:40] <seb128> pitti, we should back out early if we can't do those
[13:40] <pitti> seb128: that f-spot thing is low prio; I'd rather keep the app structure like it is for lucid and focus on speed/bugs, TBH
[13:40] <seb128> just my opinion
[13:41] <didrocks> FYI, /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager is the one which ones, and if we set to gnome-wm, then the script read /desktop/gnome/applications/window_manager/default
[13:41] <didrocks> s/ones/wins
[13:42] <seb128> right
[14:03] <tjaalton> pitti: it still needs a publisher run or something for the wacom to get past NEW?
[14:09] <seb128> tedg, hey
[14:09] <seb128> mvo, hello?
[14:12] <tedg> Good morning seb128!  How is it on your side of the pond?
[14:12] <seb128> good!
[14:13] <seb128> what about yours? ;-)
[14:13] <tedg> Very nice.  It's still a little early to tell though -- haven't checked the bug mail box yet :)
[14:13] <seb128> hehehe
[14:13]  * tedg is realizing he needs to go through the list of things he wants seb128 to do while he's doing performance testing and will do anything to avoid it ;)
[14:14] <seb128> lol
[14:14] <mvo> seb128: hi, nothing new re python-gobject, sorry. I was debugging seeds and dealing with the multiple dimensions of our support levels
[14:14] <seb128> mvo, ok
[14:15] <mvo> but that is finished now and I need to do some s-c work, so I test it along the way
[14:18] <seb128> thanks
[14:26] <seb128> mvo, s-c feels quite slugish now in lucid
[14:27] <mvo> seb128: ...
[14:27] <mvo> seb128: I know, this is why I did the patch against gtktreeview
[14:28] <djsiegel1> hey seb128, my updates are broken can you help me troubleshoot?
[14:28] <seb128> djsiegel1, hey, sure
[14:28] <mvo> seb128: if could could test it, that would be nice, it should make quite a difference (pathc gtk + enable fixed_height mode again)
[14:28] <seb128> mvo, ah, I see, I though that was planned work, not current lucid
[14:29] <djsiegel1> seb128: so I am trying to run updates on lucid
[14:30] <djsiegel1> and it tells me us.archive.ubuntu... fails to deliver some updates?
[14:30] <seb128> which ones?
[14:30] <seb128> did you try running an index update again?
[14:30] <seb128> ie sudo apt-get update
[14:30] <seb128> or refresh in update-manager
[14:31] <djsiegel1> I will try that
[14:31] <desrt> this place is always so lively
[14:32] <desrt> good morning all, (well, afternoon to most, i suppose)
[14:32] <seb128> hey desrt
[14:32] <seb128> desrt, so, we were chatting with vuntz
[14:32] <desrt> i got a /msg from him this morning
[14:33] <seb128> desrt, and were wondering whether or not you still had focus on gsettings, etc or if you were working on other work projects now
[14:33] <seb128> seems we did read different versions on IRC
[14:33] <pitti> tjaalton: yes, publisher run
[14:33] <mvo> seb128: right, well. the code that expands the rows is really nice, this is why I merged it, but I'm not sure what we should do if we can not make the treeview faster, we may have to disable it again
[14:33] <desrt> as i mentioned yesterday, rob taylor has increased my hours and told me to start spending time on dconf stuff again
[14:33] <seb128> oh
[14:33] <mvo> if only a gtk hacker could look at the patch ...
[14:33] <seb128> I read you saying the opposite 2 days ago
[14:33] <desrt> he told me this yesterday :p
[14:34] <desrt> i think i mentioned it here.  maybe not.
[14:34] <seb128> desrt, vuntz also seems to think that landing gvariant also implies landing gsettings in the same cycle
[14:34] <desrt> but yes.  i am working on other projects too
[14:34] <seb128> is that true?
[14:34] <desrt> no
[14:34] <desrt> gvariant will land first, and possibly in a different cycle from gsettings
[14:34] <seb128> what do you think is realistic?
[14:34] <desrt> gvariant will land
[14:35] <desrt> mclasen and i are starting to have much better communication about this and did quite a bit of work together yesterday
[14:35] <seb128> to be honest I told him I don't think gsettings and gdbus is realistic this cycle
[14:35] <desrt> after that, gsettings is smaller by comparison
[14:35] <desrt> so there's no reason it can't land
[14:35] <desrt> but........
[14:35] <seb128> but I'm happy to be proved wrong
[14:35] <desrt> i'm starting to see how things go
[14:35] <desrt> so maybe it takes longer than i expect :)
[14:35] <seb128> well it always can
[14:35] <seb128> assuming hacker fix things quickly
[14:36] <desrt> i don't know about gdbus
[14:36] <seb128> and reviewers review things too
[14:36] <desrt> but i've only heard negative things recently
[14:36] <seb128> to be back to what I was saying to vuntz
[14:36] <seb128> I think having GNOME3 with gconf is a fail
[14:36] <desrt> ya.  i agree.
[14:36] <seb128> and I think the dconf for next cycle is not realistic
[14:36] <seb128> or rather having the desktop ported away from gconf use
[14:37] <desrt> well, hold on
[14:37] <desrt> even if gsettings doesn't make it into glib...
[14:37] <desrt> with gvariant in glib, the whole dconf situation becomes *much* easier
[14:37] <desrt> and having a separate gsettings tarball is not too difficult
[14:37] <desrt> having a separate gvariant tarball would have been a nightmare... but i really do think it *will* go in this cycle
[14:38] <seb128> I think gvariant is realistic
[14:38] <seb128> but what do you think is a realistic timeframe for dconf being in a state to be used by GNOME
[14:38] <seb128> like having it stable, packaged by distros, etc
[14:39] <seb128> "stable"
[14:39] <tjaalton> pitti: alright, just need to wait then
[14:39] <desrt> pretty much there already, i think
[14:39] <seb128> like ready to be distributed and used in unstable versions
[14:39] <desrt> i've had ubuntu packages of it setup and working for a *long* time
[14:39] <desrt> it's stable
[14:39] <desrt> it's just feature work at this point
[14:40] <desrt> one of those features is NFS support, mind you
[14:40] <desrt> which is quite important to some
[14:40] <desrt> and policykit support
[14:40] <desrt> stuff like that
[14:40] <seb128> well, you know where I want to go
[14:40] <desrt> you're trying to hint that 3.0 be pushed back again?
[14:40] <seb128> it just seems to me from experience that all those details take time
[14:41] <seb128> desrt, I'm trying to hint that I think GNOME3 next cycle with dconf is not realisticly going to work
[14:41] <seb128> desrt, that's just my opinion though
[14:41] <desrt> and you also said that gnome3 without dconf is fail
[14:41] <seb128> yes
[14:41] <seb128> my view still
[14:41] <desrt> so your three options:
[14:41] <desrt> 1) miracle
[14:41] <desrt> 2) delay
[14:41] <desrt> 3) FAIL
[14:41] <seb128> basically yes
[14:41] <desrt> well, let's hope for 1 :)
[14:42] <desrt> and in the meantime, work hard :p
[14:42] <seb128> ;-)
[14:42] <vish> seb128: in Lucid  , custom naming of workspaces seems to have been dropped , so Bug #185450 can be closed i suppose .. ?
[14:42] <desrt> gonna go do some work now
[14:42] <desrt> bye :)
[14:44] <seb128> vish, they didn't?
[14:44] <seb128> vish, do you use compiz?
[14:45] <vish> seb128: yeah , oh its a metacity thing.. ok
[14:45] <seb128> no
[14:45] <seb128> it's not a non compiz thing
[14:45] <seb128> compiz uses viewports
[14:45] <seb128> not workspaces
[14:45] <vish> ah , right  , got it
[14:45] <vish> thanks
[15:20] <seb128> tedg, bah
[15:20] <seb128> indicator-session empty menu
[15:20] <seb128> tedg, using today's versions
[15:20] <tedg> :(
[15:20] <seb128> I've the broken box though
[15:20] <seb128> so I can get debug infos
[15:20] <seb128> anything you want to know?
[15:21] <tedg> Does "what the hell is going on" count? :)
[15:21] <seb128> no!
[15:21] <seb128> indicator-session-service not running
[15:21] <tedg> Can you send me the indicator-applet-session.log?
[15:21] <tedg> Okay, did you get a boot chart?  Did it ever start?
[15:21] <seb128> pj
[15:22] <seb128> oh
[15:22] <seb128> it's interesting
[15:26]  * tedg keeps hitting "reload" on his mail client hoping seb128 will share :)
[15:27] <seb128> tedg, sorry trying to get the mini to copy the file
[15:27]  * seb128 uses pastebin
[15:28] <tedg> seb128: Ah, okay.  I was just on the edge of my seat... I didn't want to fall off! :)
[15:28] <vuntz> seb128, desrt: fwiw, when I said that we probably need gsettings and gdbus at the same time as gvariant, that was for porting apps to dconf
[15:29] <seb128> tedg, http://paste.ubuntu.com/360709/
[15:29] <seb128> tedg, the second line is interesting
[15:34] <tedg> seb128: Did you truncate the log?  Was there not anything before that?
[15:34] <seb128> tedg, no, it's full file
[15:34] <seb128> tedg, no, it's full file copied there...
[15:34] <seb128> tedg, why?
[15:35] <tedg> seb128: It's missing lines I'd expect.  Like "Loading module: libme.so"
[15:35] <seb128> tedg, it not
[15:35] <seb128> $ cat .cache/indicator-applet-session.log
[15:35] <seb128> Looking at Module: libme.so
[15:35] <seb128> status_icon_cb: assertion `icons[0] != '\0'' failed
[15:35] <seb128> $
[15:35] <seb128> tedg, on my laptop which is working
[15:36] <tedg> Hmm, that's interesting.  I'll have to look at the logging.
[15:36] <seb128> do you have the loading line?
[15:36] <seb128> tedg, http://paste.ubuntu.com/360715/
[15:36] <seb128> tedg, that's the other log
[15:36] <seb128> ups
[15:36] <seb128> tedg, http://paste.ubuntu.com/360716
[15:37] <seb128> (typo)
[15:40] <seb128> chrisccoulson, hey again
[15:40] <seb128> chrisccoulson, sorry I forgot to reply to your delay key thing
[15:40] <chrisccoulson> hey seb128
[15:40] <chrisccoulson> how are you?
[15:40] <seb128> chrisccoulson, we discussed that previous cycle and went with the "add sleep to the command line"
[15:40] <seb128> but that could be nice
[15:41] <seb128> though I was rather thinking getting an extra "after loading" singal
[15:41] <seb128> signal
[15:41] <seb128> or something similar
[15:41] <seb128> good thanks
[15:41] <seb128> a bit tired
[15:41] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, the issue with adding sleep to the command line is that you still have to spawn a shell up front
[15:42] <seb128> hum, right
[15:42] <seb128> tedg, oh and it did start yes
[15:42] <seb128> tedg, for some 0.8 seconds
[15:42] <pitti> davidbarth: FYI, I fixed the burndown link on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
[15:43] <tedg> seb128: Okay.  I'll poke around more.  I want to fix the logging, without that we're shooting in the dark.
[15:43] <chrisccoulson> hmmmm, how do i get grub 2 to show the menu on boot? i've not had to do it recently, and it used to be [ESC] with grub legacy
[15:43] <seb128> chrisccoulson, shift
[15:43] <chrisccoulson> that might sound like a silly question ;)
[15:43] <chrisccoulson> ah, thanks
[15:43] <seb128> sit on the key
[15:43] <seb128> you have to delay so it's hard to hit it right
[15:44] <seb128> but you can press it from bios
[15:44] <seb128> until grub
[15:44] <seb128> to delay -> no delay
[15:44] <seb128> I was first trying to hit it around the grub loading
[15:44] <didrocks> tedg: is it a known bug that the keyboard layout switcher in the indicator applet doesn't allow you to switch, sometime (and then, have to restart the session for it)
[15:44] <seb128> but that's proven to be right
[15:45] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'm having difficulty getting it to show then menu in virtualbox
[15:45] <seb128> didrocks, nothing to do with indicator
[15:45] <tedg> didrocks: Not that I know of.
[15:45] <seb128> didrocks, it's notification-area
[15:45] <chrisccoulson> ah, got it now :)
[15:45] <didrocks> seb128: oh, I don't get the seperation between them, how do you know which modules are in?
[15:46] <seb128> the indicator are a consistent things
[15:46] <seb128> which open a menu
[15:46] <seb128> and let you go left and right
[15:46] <seb128> the notification area is a collection of things
[15:46] <seb128> which behave differently
[15:46] <didrocks> seb128: yes, I know, that was not my question, let me reword :)
[15:46] <seb128> I also know that it comes from g-s-d
[15:46] <seb128> and that it has not been ported yet
[15:47] <seb128> only rhythmbox and nautilus use the new things in ludic
[15:47] <chrisccoulson> yay, i got lucid to boot again :)
[15:47] <didrocks> seb128: ok, that's how you know what are where :)
[15:47] <didrocks> seb128: because apart from knowing the old rhythmbox icon, it's difficult to know if it's part of indicator or notification area
[15:48] <tedg> didrocks: If you open the message menu, and click the left and right buttons -- everything that opens is an indicator :)
[15:48] <didrocks> are the two are just next the other one
[15:48] <didrocks> tedg: yes, but for the rhytmbox icon for instance, how do I know it's part of the indicator applet, not notification?
[15:49] <didrocks> (apart on noticing the difference from the old icon :))
[15:49] <tedg> didrocks: Because if you click on the messaging menu, you can get to the RB menu by using keypresses (no mouse)
[15:49] <didrocks> tedg: oh right :)
[15:49] <didrocks> thanks tedg
[15:49] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - if you right-click on the icon, and select "About", you get the about dialog for the indicator too
[15:50] <seb128> didrocks, what I told you before
[15:50]  * tedg has become addicted to that, he's found himself clicking on NetworkManager, moving the mouse over to RB and then start yelling at his computer.
[15:50] <seb128> didrocks, nothing in the notification area displays a menu with the bar entry selected
[15:50] <seb128> didrocks, ie colored
[15:51] <didrocks> seb128: right, I understand know, sorry to not having notice the left and right stuff before
[15:51] <didrocks> thanks seb128 ;)
[15:51] <seb128> np
[15:51] <seb128> tedg, do you still need some debug info from my broken box?
[15:51] <tedg> seb128: No, I don't think so.  Thank you!
[15:51] <seb128> tedg, I need to reboot it to do some testing for didrocks when I can
[15:51] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, strange, my metacity theme isn't loading properly now on lucid
[15:51] <seb128> tedg, np
[15:51] <davidbarth> pitti: thanks
[15:52]  * tedg is sad that this isn't fixed
[15:52] <seb128> chrisccoulson, how did you fix your boot btw?
[15:52] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - booted with the last kernel
[15:52] <seb128> tedg, at least it's not fixed without you understanding how
[15:52] <chrisccoulson> i should probably try doing a bisect really
[15:52] <seb128> tedg, and the unable to get proxy error is an hint
[15:52] <seb128> tedg, you know why apport doesn't trigger
[15:52] <seb128> it's not a crash
[15:53] <tedg> Yeah, I think it's exiting normally.
[15:53] <tedg> I think that it believes that no one is talking to it.
[15:54] <seb128> bah
[15:54] <seb128> tedg, failed twice in a row
[15:54] <seb128> and other error this time
[15:55] <tedg> seb128: kenvandine: BTW, did you guys upload a 0.0.10-0ubuntu2 of indicator-application after it failed to build?  I don't know if you guys got the failure e-mail.
[15:55] <seb128> yes
[15:55] <tedg> Cool, thanks!
[15:55] <tedg> New error?
[15:55] <seb128> tedg, http://paste.ubuntu.com/360728/
[15:56] <tedg> Hmm, I wonder if the proxy is failing to build, but not setting an error...
[15:56] <seb128> it run for around 0,8 seconds again on this one
[16:01] <seb128> didrocks, the failsafe session is not stored but it's not a failsafe either
[16:01] <seb128> didrocks, I'm downgrading to see if that was working before
[16:01] <didrocks> seb128: hum? I think it's more related to my session stuff than gdm change
[16:01] <seb128> I get a normal gnome-session
[16:02] <seb128> with compiz
[16:19] <seb128> mvo, gdebi not letting you downgrade a debug, bug or design?
[16:19] <didrocks> seb128: I don't really see what's a default session TBH, gnome-session -f even launch the autostart .desktop user application
[16:19] <seb128> mvo, a deb
[16:20] <mvo> seb128: design
[16:20] <seb128> mvo, ok thanks
[16:20] <mvo> seb128: for most people its dangerous (not for you :)
[16:20] <seb128> mvo, your design sucks ;-)
[16:20] <mvo> seb128: *pfff* accept my patch!
[16:21] <seb128> mvo, did you try my pygobject update at least?
[16:21] <seb128> well looking in ps it's not called with -f either
[16:22] <seb128> didrocks, ^
[16:22] <seb128> so we might have different bugs there
[16:22] <seb128> but it was already bugged in the version I tried
[16:22] <seb128> didrocks, at least I can confirm that the bug you fixed yesterday happened before and not now!
[16:23] <didrocks> seb128: where do you see gnome-session? I only see x-session-manager
[16:23] <didrocks> ps aux | grep session
[16:24] <seb128> x-session-manager is an alternative for gnome-session
[16:24] <didrocks> ok, so, it should be x-session-manager -f :)
[16:24] <seb128> yes
[16:24] <seb128> or gnome-session -f
[16:25] <didrocks> hum, I can have a look, this is my gdm's week after all :)
[16:25] <seb128> lol
[16:25]  * pitti hugs the new gdm maintainer
[16:25] <seb128> compiz and gdm
[16:25] <didrocks> pitti: I didn't tell that :)
[16:25] <seb128> that's what new comers get
[16:25] <seb128> ask robert_ancell!
[16:25] <pitti> didrocks: of course you didn't
[16:25] <didrocks> a lot of love :)
[16:26]  * pitti tells didrocks the spelling of "voluntold"
[16:26] <didrocks> heh
[16:26]  * pitti hugs didrocks
[16:26]  * didrocks hugs pitti
[16:26] <chrisccoulson> lol
[16:26] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i thought you maintained gdm? ;)
[16:27] <seb128> I think chrisccoulson is volunteering for those ;-)
[16:27] <chrisccoulson> heh
[16:27] <pitti> chrisccoulson: forced by sheer user/bug pressure..
[16:27] <chrisccoulson> pitti - you spent a lot of time on gdm last cycle ;)
[16:28] <seb128> pitti likes new challenges
[16:28] <mvo> seb128: yes, no issues so far, but I have not tested it a lot yet
[16:28] <seb128> mvo, ok thanks, let me know if you get new bugs
[16:28] <seb128> mvo, btw do you have a sprint agenda yet?
[16:28] <seb128> ;-)
[16:29] <pitti> Riddell: perhaps we could also remove some printer drivers, if we have a sane way how to install them through the config tool
[16:29] <pitti> hplip-data is a hog, but then again those printers are popular
[16:29] <Riddell> ah yes, really should implement that
[16:29] <didrocks> just about this x-session-manager, this is a distro patch? I don't find any patch for that in gdm (spawn by something else?)
[16:29] <pitti> Riddell: hplip-data is some 11 MB, foomatic-db-gutenprint is 5
[16:30] <pitti> Riddell: language-support-writing-en also pulls in a lot; if you drop this, ubiquity will install it from the network (if available)
[16:31] <pitti> Riddell: i. e. it would make it work for English in exactly the same way as for anyone else
[16:31] <seb128> didrocks, let me check
[16:31] <seb128> didrocks, it was working in karmic
[16:31] <seb128> didrocks, I just tried in kvm on a karmic iso
[16:31] <pitti> Riddell: (just thinking aloud while walking through the .manifest)
[16:31] <mvo> seb128: I have some items on my personal sprint agenda, but not that much yet
[16:32] <didrocks> seb128: ok, so all the pain arrived somewhere in lucid release cycle :) if you can just point me to this x-session-manager stuff, it'll be great :)
[16:32] <seb128> didrocks, there is a Xsession.d script
[16:32] <seb128> didrocks, hum no, that's just reading .gnomerc
[16:33] <seb128> mvo, can we sit together and beat compiz?
[16:33] <didrocks> seb128: maybe STARTUP is still empty at this stage?
[16:34] <seb128> mvo, especially I want to get djsiegel changes
[16:34] <seb128> mvo, and maybe split the binaries to not install things we don't use
[16:34] <didrocks> hum, no, xterm session won't work in that case (it's also a failsafe session)
[16:34] <pitti> Riddell: ooh - libc6-dev/linux-headers-2.6.32-11/linux-headers-2.6.32-11-generic = 11.5 MB
[16:35] <mvo> seb128: ok, we can do this
[16:35] <seb128> mvo, thanks
[16:35]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[16:38] <mvo> seb128: what happend to the plans that Amaranth had?
[16:38] <seb128> mvo, what happen to him you mean?
[16:38] <mvo> or that
[16:38] <seb128> mvo, I've not seem him on IRC since new year
[16:39] <seb128> and he didn't reply to my pings
[16:39] <mvo> ok
[16:39] <mvo> unfortunate
[16:39] <seb128> yes...
[16:39] <seb128> I've been waiting for him to reply
[16:39] <seb128> but now is about time to get things moving there
[16:42] <Riddell> pitti: hmm, why is that on the CD I wonder
[16:42] <pitti> Riddell: it's necessary as soon as you need to build a DKMS driver
[16:42] <pitti> but for all of them you need network either way
[16:42] <pitti> so it seems to be a good "first against the wall" candidate
[16:43] <pitti> Riddell: and you could perhaps just ship with OO.o write and calc, and drop draw/base/impress
[16:43] <pitti> we have done that on the ubuntu CDs since hardy or so
[16:44] <pitti> Riddell: ok, I think that's it from my first look through the manifest
[16:44] <Riddell> that would be another 10 megs
[16:44] <Riddell> thanks pitti
[16:55] <Riddell> pitti: so you think I can get rid of the Development section in desktop-common ?
[16:56] <pitti> Riddell: no objection from me to move them to the ubuntu.lucid seed
[16:57] <pitti> I don't know whether germinate syntax has a kind of "unseed" feature
[16:57] <pitti> where you could say "desktop-common, but foo, bar, baz"
[16:58] <didrocks> seb128: interesting, when launching gnome or une session, I get STARTUP=gnome-session, xterm failsafe session, startup=xterm, but in gnome failsafe session, it's empty, and so, replace by xsession-manager in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup
[16:58] <Riddell> I think that would get too complex, I've moved it to ubuntu.lucid/desktop
[16:58] <pitti> I guess it also needs to go to {x,edu,myth}* then
[17:02] <didrocks> seb128: got it! if you place a whitespace in Exec= key, something (I think gdm) is puzzled and STARTUP is then empty
[17:03] <didrocks> you can try Exec=xterm -ah to see a beautiful gnome-session starting :)
[17:03] <seb128> didrocks, weird
[17:03] <seb128> didrocks, 2.29.1 and 2.29.4 run gnome-session
[17:04] <seb128> but without the -f option
[17:05] <didrocks> seb128: right, beacause there is a space in "gnome-session -f", which make STARTUP empty, and then /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup run x-session-manager if $STARTUP is empty
[17:05] <seb128> didrocks, well that was not happening in those version
[17:05] <seb128> the argument was not used
[17:05] <seb128> but x-session-manager either
[17:06] <seb128> so maybe we have 2 bugs there
[17:06] <didrocks> maybe yes
[17:06] <didrocks> but you confirm that on your box, with failsafe (or any session with exec=<something_with_space>) is running x-session-manager?
[17:07] <seb128> yes
[17:07] <didrocks> ok, should be easy to tackle in GDM (at least, to have STARTUP not empty)
[17:08] <seb128> good
[17:08] <didrocks> maybe they tried to fix it, but not the right way
[17:08] <seb128> want to work on it?
[17:08] <didrocks> yes :)
[17:08] <didrocks> not sure I can tonight because my girlfriend wants us to have our dinner outside but a little time during the week-end or Monday :)
[17:09] <^arky^> seb128: Hi can I have a quick word about a patch for bug 507964
[17:09] <seb128> ^arky^, hi, if you want but not with me, I've no opinion about that
[17:10] <seb128> didrocks, yeah, no hurry, don't make your gf angry!
[17:10] <didrocks> seb128: heh, I try to ;)
[17:10] <^arky^> seb128: ok so whom should I talk to so that I can get this patch into compiz
[17:11] <seb128> ^arky^, try subscribing the sponsors team and wait for a comment
[17:11] <seb128> ^arky^, or try mvo
[17:11] <seb128> or Amaranth
[17:11] <seb128> but they are busy usually
[17:11] <seb128> seems a non issue to me
[17:11] <seb128> I'm not even sure anybody switches between panels using the keyboard this way
[17:12] <mvo> hey ^arky^ - thanks for your mail, sorry that I have not responded yet
[17:12] <^arky^> seb128: its a a11y issue for low vision
[17:12] <^arky^> mvo: np
[17:12] <mvo> ^arky^: I think its not super-urgent because its (probably) a rarely used binding, but we still should fix it
[17:13] <mvo> ^arky^: oh, a11y ... that makes it more important for sure
[17:13] <seb128> isn't that keybinding used for reverse alt-tabing for years?
[17:14] <^arky^> mvo: have a look at the comment from orca developers https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=578099#c1
[17:16] <^arky^> compiz eZoom is only good solution for low vision users and screen readers users keyboard navigation and compiz keybindings are really terrible at this
[17:16] <^arky^>  s/users/users use/
[17:16] <mvo> ^arky^: right, we do want to fix this, ideally it would be fixed upstream, did you got any feedback from upstream compiz ?
[17:17] <^arky^> mvo: that patch was created with upstream help
[17:17] <mvo> ^arky^: oh, nice
[17:18] <mvo> ^arky^: I'm about to leave for dinner, but I target it
[17:19] <mvo> for lucid
[17:19] <^arky^> mvo: thanks !
[17:48] <jjardon> seb128, sorry for the noise in launchpad, I'll ask next time
[17:48] <seb128> jjardon, that's ok
[17:48] <seb128> jjardon, I told you on IRC that those were not bugs though :-)
[17:50] <jjardon> seb128, yeah :), but how do you know the dependencies of one package?, Should you know all the dependencies of its dependencies?
[17:51] <seb128> what do you mean?
[17:51] <seb128> apt-cache show package | grep Depends
[17:53] <jjardon> for example, if gnome-media depends on libglade and rhytmbox depends on gnome-media (but it rhytmbox doesnt depend on libglade directly), Should libglade appear as rhytmbox dependency?
[17:53] <seb128> yes
[17:54] <seb128> the gnome-media.pc file adds -lglade to the rhythmbox build options
[17:56] <jjardon> I see, thank you for the explanation
[17:57] <pitti> nice, python-gudev!
[17:57] <pitti> http://github.com/nzjrs/python-gudev
[17:58]  * pitti smells a pitivi fix there
[18:02] <seb128> pitti, nice!
[18:09] <chrisccoulson> gobby rocks!
[18:09] <chrisccoulson> i've never used it before until now
[18:10] <seb128> how come you tries it now?
[18:14] <jjardon> pitti, great! :)
[18:15] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - we have a document for tracker packaging
[18:18] <seb128> oh ok
[18:31]  * chrisccoulson wonders if gobby is a candidate for getting messaging indicator support, rather than flashing in my task bar every time somebody writes something
[18:32]  * vish found that irritating too , esp during the UDS sessions ;)
[18:55] <jcastro> chrisccoulson: think of the accolades UDS attendees would heap upon the person who would add such a feature!
[18:55] <chrisccoulson> heh :)
[20:27] <desrt> bryce_: hey?
[20:35] <didrocks> seb128: I found the gdm bug (which is in xorg package btw), I'll just try it (should be short) and then ask for sponsoring :)
[20:36] <seb128> didrocks, oh, nice, where?
[20:36] <seb128> I'm curious ;-)
[20:39] <didrocks> seb128: I have a good news and a bad news
[20:39] <didrocks> seb128: the good news is that the patch try to launch now gnome-session -f :)
[20:40] <didrocks> the bad news is that then the session uterly fail :)
[20:40] <didrocks> seb128: the bug was in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/20x11-common_process-args
[20:40] <didrocks> $1 is "gnome-session -f"
[20:41] <didrocks> which causes some troubles when trying to STARTUP_FULL_PATH=$(/usr/bin/which "$1" || true) :)
[20:41] <didrocks> so, then went to else, without STARTUP set up
[20:42] <didrocks> and then, has said before, STARTUP empty -> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup set it to /usr/bin/x-session-manager
[20:42] <didrocks> and we know the following :)
[20:42] <didrocks> well, now, I have to find when STARTUP is actually "gnome-session -f", it fails
[20:47] <seb128> didrocks, oh, I see
[20:48] <seb128> didrocks, good work :-)
[20:49] <didrocks> seb128: thanks. I think I'm close to the end when I see exec /usr/bin/ssh-agent ...dbus-launch ... -execute gnome-session -f
[20:49] <didrocks> I think it should be something like -execute "gnome-session -f"
[20:49] <seb128> yes
[20:50] <seb128> could be
[20:50] <seb128> you should call it a week
[20:50] <seb128> before having you gf filling you because you still work on friday night!
[20:50] <didrocks> she's paiting, I think I still have half an hour free :)
[20:51] <didrocks> painting*
[20:52] <seb128> lol
[20:52]  * seb128 goes now
[20:52] <seb128> enjoy the weekend!
[20:52] <didrocks> have a good week-end seb128!
[20:52] <didrocks> thanks :)
[20:52] <seb128> thanks you
[20:53] <seb128> and don't work too much this weekend! :-)
[20:53] <seb128> bye
[20:53] <didrocks> seb128: don't be afraid for that :-)
[20:53] <didrocks> bye!
[21:11] <chrisccoulson> hey seb128
[21:11] <chrisccoulson> you've not started your weekend yet? ;)
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[22:31] <rvdbewkh> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:31] <rvdbewkh> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:31] <rvdbewkh> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:31] <fagan> Wow spam central
[22:31] <azteech> really ...
[22:32] <azteech> hope someone booted the scrolling billboard ...
[22:32] <fagan> I was just about to call the ops and it quit
[22:33] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:33] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:33] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:33] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:33] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:34] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:34] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:34] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:34] <fagan> !ops
[22:34] <iqlrmvfe> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:34] <desrt> sigh.
[22:34] <fagan> I called the ops hopefully they can find out more
[22:35] <fagan> Its getting very annoying
[22:35] <timecop> yes hello
[22:35] <timecop> timecop here
[22:35] <timecop> did somebody push the rape alarm?
[22:35] <fagan> Yep
[22:35] <fagan> spam central
[22:35] <reshekel> someone pressed the emergency buttom
[22:36] <fagan> Hang about for 5 mins and you'll see another
[22:36] <timecop> i think there are details on how to set your client to block it @ http://www2.freenode.pl/
[22:36] <gzkvqhkomyox> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:36] <gzkvqhkomyox> Your machine has been infected by the recent spam attacks - visit http://www2.freenode.pl/ for a quick and easy solution!
[22:36] <tsimpson> DO NOT CLICK THAT
[22:37] <fagan> good thing no work is going on at the moment
[23:13] <czajkowski> tsimpson: would an idea be to +R all ubuntu-namespaces for the time being ?
[23:14] <tsimpson> that's generally a good idea