[09:57] <akfoss> Hi. I am a member of the Iranian Ubuntu Team. It has been a long time that in our forum, http://forum.ubuntu.ir, we have a rule that some users have objections about it. "The Iranian Ubuntu Forum does not accept topics those encourage users to use proprietary software and may lock, move, edit, or delete them. Comparing free and proprietary software is accepted". All Iranian Ubuntu Team members agree with this rule but some forum users
[09:57] <akfoss> do not. Some forum users say: "this is the Ubunu forum not the GNU forum" and we should change that rule. Here is my question, can we have that rule? or we must change it.
[10:00] <nhaines> akfoss: Hello!  There is definitely no restriction against dicussing proprietary software, and it's an unfortunate truth that sometimes there is no good Free or Open Source software alternative available.
[10:01] <nhaines> Free Software stands alone on its merits, not just its license.  There is no reason that this rule should stand if the forum administrators want to change it.
[10:02] <nhaines> My advice is that if your LoCo members find the rule restrictive and want it to be removed, you should consider doing so.  It would be very bad if LoCo members went elsewhere because they couldn't discuss software freely.
[10:02] <akfoss> We do not want to change it. Some forum users say that we do not that right to have our own rules and we must follow guidelines of ubuntuforums.org or other similar sites
[10:03] <akfoss> all LoCo members agree with that rule.
[10:06] <nhaines> Then you should decide if the forum is mainly to support LoCo members, or if it might be better to be a focal point for other Persian speakers.  Maybe an off-topic forum would allow discussion of proprietary software.  And maybe running one or two proprietary programs on top of Ubuntu would allow someone to switch.
[10:06] <nhaines> But it looks like these forums are separate from the Ubuntu Forums, and therefore the rules are yours to set.
[10:09] <nhaines> It definitely makes sense to have the main focus of an Ubuntu forum center on Free and Open Source Software.  But even Ubuntu ships with proprietary drivers and firmware.  So do your best to consider all points of view and ways that you can make the forum most useful for your community.
[10:10] <akfoss> Thanks nhaines.
[10:11] <nhaines> My pleasure.  If you need an official statement, please send an email.  Either way, I wish the Iranian Ubuntu Team all the best.  :)
[10:12] <nhaines> You can email us if needed at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:15] <akfoss> :) I'll email right now to be reference for other LoCos.


[05:18] <MarkMaglana> jam: thanks for commenting on the Existing Tools section! Very good comments. Helps with thinking about and evaluating possible solutions.
[05:19] <jam> MarkMaglana, happy to. I think we're also very invested in recommendations for how to get the dependencies into the charm and into the deployment
[05:20] <jam> MarkMaglana, I should mention that the current plans are looking to have a build step for charms that can be run on a Launchpad build farm (like snaps and debs) so that charms end up series/architecture specific for deployment.
[05:20] <jam> We've tried to avoid that in Juju for a long time, but it is just a practical matter that charms depend on python extensions
[05:20] <jam> (even PyYAML uses libyaml)
[05:21] <jam> note that the charm store and Juju don't currently support looking up charms by series+architecture so a lot of that ends up in 'room for growth'
[05:33] <MarkMaglana> jam is this build step plan documented anywhere? I'm curious and would like to reference that in my document.
[07:33] <davigar15> Hey jam!
[07:34] <davigar15> Ian Booth told me that the issue https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/1882127 is fixed in 2.7/edge
[07:35] <jam> davigar15, well, it now properly reports an error rather than a nil panic, we still need to understand what the underlying error is
[07:36] <davigar15> jam: okay! great! I will investigate if I have time. Let me know if you find out anything
[07:36] <davigar15> have a nice day :-)
[07:38] <jam> davigar15, you too
[08:13] <Chipaca> good morning people!
[08:52] <Chipaca> jam: should I tell people to give #323 a try if they're interested in it?
[08:52] <mup> PR #323: 317 state get <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/323>
[08:52] <jam> It isn't wired up yet, so I still need to do a bit
[08:52] <jam> morning Chipaca
[08:52] <Chipaca> jam: ok, i'll just mention it's a WIP and on target for 0.7 then :)
[08:58] <vgrevtsev> hi jam - any chance you can take a one more look into the https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/328? Still have no idea what could be wrong :/
[09:05] <jam> vgrevtsev, is src/charm.py executable and have the right #! line?
[09:06] <jam> maybe python isn't found at the path you expect inside the application container?
[09:07] <jam> replied to the bug
[09:11] <vgrevtsev> jam: yes it's exec-able, the charm itself is running fine
[09:15] <Chipaca> vgrevtsev: do you get debug logs?
[09:22] <jam> vgrevtsev, that is running in the operator pod, while the actions run in the application pod
[09:22] <jam> vgrevtsev, different python
[09:22] <Chipaca> jam: but the charm ran in the application pod as well, otherwise what created the symlink
[09:23] <vgrevtsev> jam: yeah but it didn't raise the bad interpreter or smth similar
[09:23] <jam> Chipaca, juju when it copies the charm directory from the operator pod to the application pod during init
[09:23] <Chipaca> ahhh
[09:24] <jam> vgrevtsev, $ ./foo
[09:24] <jam> bash: ./foo: /bin/ash: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
[09:24] <jam> that does say "No such file or directory"
[09:24] <vgrevtsev> but it also says "bad intepreter"
[09:24] <jam> vgrevtsev, yeah, and there is some sort of python that is trying to exec the script
[09:25] <vgrevtsev> well wait
[09:26] <vgrevtsev> i think i found smth
[09:26] <vgrevtsev> `/bin/sh: /usr/bin/env: not found`
[09:26] <vgrevtsev> (in the app container)
[09:26] <vgrevtsev> while my `charm.py` has `#!/usr/bin/env python3`
[09:34] <Chipaca> hehe
[09:34] <Chipaca> /usr/bin/env bites again
[09:34] <Chipaca> (this wrt: people doing '/usr/bin/env bash' to make things more portable --- despite env being in /usr/bin less frequently than bash is)
[09:35] <Chipaca> s/(?<=than bash is)/ in \/bin/
[09:36] <vgrevtsev> yeah, and here is another problem: my app container doesn't have python installed :\
[09:36] <vgrevtsev> so that basically means that I can't run actions against it
[09:36] <Chipaca> yeah
[09:37] <jam> vgrevtsev, you can write non-python actions, it depends what you want them to do
[09:43] <vgrevtsev> true
[09:43] <vgrevtsev> just wondering why the actions are executed at the app pod but charm itself runs on the operator pod?
[09:44] <Chipaca> vgrevtsev: I think there's an ongoing conversation about that
[09:44] <Chipaca> or a few actually?
[09:44] <Chipaca> seems a lot more work needs to be done still
[09:44] <Chipaca> mostly juju-side aiui
[09:45] <jam> vgrevtsev, a lot of it depends on what you want out of an action. many types of actions require running with the appliaction (eg, backup the database)
[10:32] <Chipaca> BTW, PROMPT_COMMAND='printf "⏎%$((COLUMNS-1))s\\r"' FTW
[10:55] <Chipaca> jam: in zookeeper_cluster, am i reading it right that it uses both framework.model.get_relation(...) and framework.relations[...] for the same relation, despite the usage of the first meaning that any checks on the length of the second are spurious?
[10:56] <Chipaca> because get_relation raises an exception if it's not unique
[11:01] <jam> Chipaca, meeting?
[11:59] <Chipaca> jam: another one?
[11:59] <Chipaca> oh wait
[12:00] <jam> Chipaca, https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/327 needs your review
[12:00] <mup> PR #327: many: move Model.name to be read from _ModelBackend <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/327>
[12:00]  * Chipaca gets out the red pen
[12:01] <jam> Chipaca, 'oh wait' ?
[12:01] <jam> Chipaca, if you can find a way to get your red pen marks online, I'm all for it
[12:01] <Chipaca> jam: saw your 'meeting?' message _after_ the meeting :)
[12:03] <Chipaca> stub: filed #329
[12:03] <mup> Issue #329: dependencies <enhancement> <🧠 big brain> <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/329>
[12:03] <mup> Issue operator#329 opened: dependencies <enhancement> <🧠 big brain> <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/329>
[12:04] <Chipaca> jam: i'd actually gotten half way through reviewing that on Friday
[12:04] <Chipaca> I lie
[12:04] <Chipaca> Thursday
[12:04] <jam> Chipaca, I can imagine it was "I reviewed it but didn't hit send"
[12:05] <Chipaca> i hadn't gotten to the bottom :)
[12:08] <mup> Issue operator#223 closed: Operator fails on Juju 2.7.0 and below <bug> <Created by chris-sanders> <Closed by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/223>
[12:08] <mup> PR operator#324 closed: model: don't use --app for relation-get/-set before 2.7.0 <Created by chipaca> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/324>
[12:08] <mup> PR operator#326 closed: make abc TestMain private to help pytest <Created by chipaca> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/326>
[12:26]  * Chipaca stepping out for 30'
[12:33] <mup> Issue operator#328 closed: k8s charm throws a "not found" error when invoking the action <Created by exceptorr> <Closed by exceptorr> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/328>
[13:00] <Chipaca> jam: i'll be along as soon as i've figured out why i have a conflicting meeting
[13:00] <jam> ok
[13:02] <jam> Chipaca, so far nobody else is here
[16:37]  * Chipaca gives up
[16:37] <Chipaca> slightly early EOD from me
[16:38] <Chipaca> ttfn! might pop in later, but i'll go run now


[05:40] <Fudge> moza:  sorry mate, different timezones make fast answers difficult
[05:41] <Fudge> please provide the bug number here and hilight TheMuso
[06:53] <moza> Fudge (and TheMuso ) I filed the bug at Gnome : https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728848 (number 728848)
[06:53] <ubot2> Gnome bug 728848 in magnifier "Switching the magnifier on makes Gnome-shell so unstable that it is impossible to switch it off." [Critical,Unconfirmed]
[06:57] <moza> Fudge : no problem about the delays, that's understandable. I'll try to leave this session connected, but i guess it's possible to contact me through the bug report now too.
[06:57] <moza> Thanks for the help and request of a bug report.
[07:56] <Fudge> moza:  np, feel free to stick around for future reboots
[07:57] <moza> I will Fudge.
[08:02] <Fudge> goodo :D
[08:04] <moza> Have a nice day in the meantime :)
[08:30] <TheMuso> moza: Is this also the case with GNOME shell 3.12.x? Upstream are more likely to look at it and address it if its tested in 3.12.
[19:59] <moza> TheMuso : I can't test on the laptop before may 3rd, so i'll have to wait until then to provide more details. The Gnome version was the default one coming with an upgrade to ubuntu 14.04
[20:48] <TheMuso> moza: Ok. Ubuntu 14.04 comes with GOME 3.10 shell, so upstream will likely ask you to test with a newer shell version, at least GNOME 3.12.0.


[01:00] <greg-g> rick_h: I love that part of it (theoretically, of course)
[01:26] <rick_h_32> yea
[02:31] <snap-l> As much as I'm a fan of home automation, I'm not sure I'm comfortable having my light bulbs accessible from the net.
[03:02] <rick_h> what's the worst they can do? Turn them off/on?
[03:10] <jjesse-home> wasn't there a whole big bang theory dedicated to that
[03:10] <jjesse-home> like they had some dude in China turning the lights off
[04:10] <derekv> i have a file
[04:10] <derekv> that is tracked by git
[04:10] <derekv> that was changed many commits ago
[04:10] <derekv> that has been saved
[04:10] <derekv> that has been compiled several times
[04:10] <derekv> but the change was never commited somehow
[04:10] <derekv> and disappeared
[04:12] <derekv> this somehow has to be eclipse
[04:12] <derekv> it doesn't make any sense at all
[04:25] <derekv> gitfu++
[04:26] <derekv> i suspect that somehow eclipse or android sdk was caching this xml file, and even though at some point i did a git reset and lost the changes, it was working with some cached version which did (despite several workspace cleans and refreshes)
[04:55] <derekv> 5 issues closed in android bookie
[04:55] <derekv> my whole saturday sacrificed
[04:58] <derekv> actually I think issue 1 is resolved as well
[04:58] <derekv> but just want to get it out there before confirming
[04:58] <derekv> next time around i'm getting rid of those buttons anywyas
[04:58] <derekv> convert to facets
[04:59] <derekv> make it look better on tablets etc
[14:32] <rick_h> https://twitter.com/boagworld/status/263829079843811328/photo/1 hah
[16:01] <hightower_sean> good ole IRC...
[20:53] <snap-l> Our next door neighbors decided to take this opportunity of good weather to start smoking their weed
[20:53] <snap-l> now our house smells like a fucking frat house
[21:10] <rick_h> wheeee
[21:30] <snap-l> Assholes. :)
[21:30] <snap-l> Just finished up an interview with a gentleman from France. :)
[21:53] <brousch> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/11/android-and-linux-on-a-dual-booting-tablet-for-100/
[21:57] <brousch> blah 800x480
[22:01] <brousch> George and I made this today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcF1jNW4QSY
[22:02] <rick_h> lol
[22:02] <rick_h> that's awesome
[22:06] <brousch> He loves watching other people's star wars lego videos, so I'm trying to get him into making them
[22:10] <derekv> so the all saturday hackathon was much more productive that the start and stop, couple hours once every couple weeks
[22:10] <derekv> i think thats going to be my modus operendi
[22:10] <rick_h> derekv: yea, honestly why I need to go to pycon more than any talk
[22:10] <derekv> i have no idea if that is how you spell that
[22:10] <rick_h> just blocking out days to hack
[22:11] <derekv> maybe one saturday every couple weeks
[22:11] <rick_h> derekv: updated app <3
[22:11] <derekv> except for maybe small patches
[22:11] <derekv> thanks =]]]]
[22:11] <derekv> yea i think 80% of that happened yesterday
[22:11] <rick_h> derekv: if you do start doing that let me know. I've thought about trying to do something like CHC that's a larger blocks once a month or something
[22:11] <rick_h> more code
[22:12] <derekv> sure
[22:14] <jjesse> brousch, that video George did is pretty cool
[22:15] <jjesse> rick_h you know how i was having problems w/ vbox and NAT?   this post: http://askubuntu.com/questions/211603/problems-with-nat-adapater-since-upgrade-to-ubuntu-12-10 and the 2nd answer solved my issue
[22:44] <rick_h> jjesse-home: looking
[22:44] <rick_h> jjesse-home: did you select the answer?
[23:29] <jjesse-home> rick_h: i think so
[23:36] <gamerchick02> jjesse-home you think what?
[23:37] <gamerchick02> is there a meeting tonight?
[23:48] <jrwren> anyone use backbone.js ?


[10:23] <wrst> Omnifrog: that's weird
[10:23] <wrst> permissions?
[14:42] <Omnifrog> for some reason there was a folder named /lost+found owned by root that couldn't be opened
[14:42] <Omnifrog> but now the file transfer starts and then dies :\
[14:45] <Omnifrog> "the process for the file protocol died unexpectedly"
[14:51] <wrst> got anything on it?
[14:57] <Omnifrog> on the external drive? yeah. I've been using it for backups for 6 months
[14:57] <Omnifrog> it happens with a different drive too so maybe a new KDE problem
[15:20] <wrst> maybe got another destkop to hook it up to?
[15:22] <Omnifrog> actually just started to copy the files over in xfce
[15:22] <wrst> working?
[15:22] <Omnifrog> still going so far
[15:23] <wrst> shame on kde
[15:24] <Omnifrog> yeah. I would do something but I don't have the time to fiddle with it
[15:28] <cyberanger> Omnifrog: sudo ls -l /path/to/.lost+found
[15:28] <cyberanger> what's that say?
[15:29] <cyberanger> I'm thinking it's the usual empty garbage folder on an external drive
[15:29] <Omnifrog> it was empty
[15:30] <Omnifrog> oh, it was in my music folder on the desktop. not sure how it even got there
[15:33] <cyberanger> hrm
[15:36] <cyberanger> Omnifrog: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/18154/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-lostfound-folder-in-linux-and-unix
[15:38] <Omnifrog> oh, yeah. I know about the directory. but there shouldn't be one in my music folder
[16:02] <cyberanger> well, not from fsck anyway, unless I'm forgetting something
[16:35] <Omnifrog> lost+found was probably unrelated to the file system error though