[00:05] <bigcalm> directhex: renewed interest in the torrent for release 4. Wonder what sparked that
[00:06] <daftykins> aww i missed the communal seeding drive of a new'un
[00:09]  * bigcalm sleeps
[00:10] <daftykins> nn sir
[01:31] <diddledan> *yawwn*
[01:31] <diddledan> should really sleep
[01:32] <diddledan> messing with nameservers right now tho
[07:00] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:34] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Celebration Of Life Day! :-D
[07:36] <MooDoo> morning JamesTait
[07:38] <MartijnVdS> \o
[08:05] <diplo> Morning all
[08:08] <MooDoo> morning diplo
[08:12] <diplo> Rather liveley here this morning!
[08:13] <MooDoo> never is this time of the morming, people are only just waking up
[08:13]  * diplo would be quite happy still in bed
[08:23] <MooDoo> diplo: me too
[08:33] <JamesTait> Me three.
[08:39] <knightwise> morning everyone
[08:41] <jussi> hrm, seems my clock disappeared (on ubuntu). anyone know how to get it back?
[08:42] <ali1234> restart indicator-datetime-service
[08:43] <ali1234> open shell and run "/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/indicator-datetime-service &"
[08:44] <popey> http://blog.backblaze.com/2014/01/21/what-hard-drive-should-i-buy/ interesting
[08:44] <jussi> hrm, not going to work, still on 32bit here
[08:45] <popey> /usr/lib/*/indicator-datetime-service &
[08:45] <popey> then
[08:45] <ali1234> then you have a 32 bit equivalent path
[08:45] <Myrtti> oh my GAWD there was something bright and flashing I could see from the corner of my eye on my pillow
[08:45] <Myrtti> two concecutive glances and it's only a pillow
[08:45] <Myrtti> now I realise it's the SUN COMING FROM THE WINDOW
[08:47] <jussi> ali1234: and popey, yup, that fixed it. thanks
[08:51] <MooDoo> Myrtti: sun? sun?  lies, there is no such thing
[08:51] <Myrtti> http://en.ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/weather/tampere
[08:51] <popey> bah, ram is being delivered when I am at the optician
[08:51] <popey> \o/ dpd allow me to redirect to neighbour
[08:53] <jussi> MooDoo: open ther blinds... :P
[08:55] <MooDoo> Myrtti: nice :)
[08:56] <MooDoo> http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2641170 here's mone
[08:56]  * MooDoo senses popey is a little excited at getting his RAM
[08:56] <popey> JUST A BIT
[08:57] <hoover> Morning lads & lassies
[09:01] <MooDoo> morning hoover
[09:01] <BigRedS> Gooood Morning!
[09:02] <bashrc> morning
[09:04] <MooDoo> It's a beautiful day hay hay !
[09:06] <MooDoo> popey: how spooky, I just read that backblaze blog post yesterday....been using their service for a couple of months, took about a week to do my initial backup :S
[09:06] <popey> oh interesting, I haven't used their service. any good?
[09:07] <popey> and does it work on linux?
[09:08] <MooDoo> popey: er not sure about linux, it's on a spare windows machine I have, don't think there is a linux clietn
[09:09] <MooDoo> popey: not at the moment - https://help.backblaze.com/entries/20203476-Is-Backblaze-going-to-offer-Linux-support-
[09:13] <diddledan> *yawwn*
[09:14] <MooDoo> diplo: coffee
[09:21] <diddledan> definitely
[09:29] <bigcalm> A client has asked me to set up a VPN with the endpoint of <IP_ADDRESS>/31. Am I right in thinking that you can't use anything but a /32 with an odd number?
[09:29] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:31] <diddledan> bigcalm: a /31 doesn't make sense in the real world
[09:32] <bigcalm> diddledan: it's just 2 IP addresses for use with a VPN
[09:32] <diddledan> are you sure?
[09:32] <bigcalm> Quite sure, it's what we've been setting up for sometime now
[09:33] <diddledan> 1bit = 2 addresses, network id is one and broadcast is the other, meaning 0 usable ip addresses
[09:33] <diddledan> host ip addresses**
[09:33] <MartijnVdS> that, or a point-to-point link
[09:33] <bigcalm> I assure you, what we are doing works :)
[09:34] <diddledan> but anywho .127/31 is .127 and .127
[09:34] <diddledan> .126 and .127
[09:34] <bigcalm> I'm not explaining the whole set-up. Just that I think Rackspace will reject the .127/31 request. .126/31 would work though
[09:34] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: throw it at ipcalc :)
[09:35]  * bigcalm passes on the request as the client has stated, just to see what happens
[09:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> I used to have Hitachi and Samsung drives and thought they were good. Samsung drives went to Seagate, Hitachi now gone to WD... http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/putting-hard-drive-reliablity-to-the-test-shows-not-all-disks-are-equal/
[09:38] <foobarry> golden rule used to be "don't buy maxtor"
[09:38] <diddledan> lol
[09:38] <diddledan> maxtor were fun
[09:38] <MooDoo> I just use WD drives, never had a problem with them yet
[09:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> Seagate look absolutely terrible in this report
[09:38] <diddledan> I try to stick with WD too
[09:39] <foobarry> they used a particular seagate model, which probably is made in the maxtor factory
[09:39] <foobarry> seagates with seagate DNA were good IME
[09:40] <foobarry> where are quantum fireballs now?
[09:40] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: quantum bigfoot!
[09:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> UK unemployment down again, and by 167k last month... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25841570
[09:41] <foobarry> you mean uk employment statistics...
[09:41] <jussi> TheOpenSourcerer: good news!
[09:42] <bashrc> Is this unemployment down, or people being no longer counted
[09:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> You'd need to ask the ONC I guess.
[09:42] <foobarry> we have struggled to hire for ages
[09:43] <bashrc> when I was unemployed I was recommended to "sign off" on a couple of occasions, even though I was looking for a job
[09:43] <foobarry> only attracting people on the continent, which means UK people want more munneh
[09:44] <jussi> foobarry: I think we have had some similar issues with hiring. mind, finding good embedded SW people isnt the easiest...
[09:44] <bashrc> struggling to hire is laughable given the current situation
[09:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> It isn't bashrc
[09:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> The UK has generally failed miserably to educate our kids for the last 20 years in anything remotely "technical"
[09:45] <foobarry> considering we are paying OK wages
[09:45] <bashrc> if you're struggling to hire then you're not offering a market clearing rate
[09:45] <jussi> bashrc: there are plenty of applicants, however, qualified, experienced people...
[09:46] <foobarry> but everything is 10-15% more expensive than a couple of years ago, so bashrc  thats correct but HR don't agree
[09:46] <bashrc> there are lots of smart people out there
[09:46] <foobarry> earning moer money
[09:47] <bashrc> if you're not offering a market clearing rate then htat's the explanation.  It's not that there aren't enough suitable candidates
[09:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> There are a lot more "less smart" people than smart ones... Esp. in tech.
[09:47] <foobarry> $employer is hiring contractors at london market rates, but permies on much lower salary = death of dept.
[09:47] <diddledan> and then there's idiots... like me.
[09:48] <jussi> bashrc: I put it to you that you are wrong.
[09:49] <jussi> but then again, we are looking for very specific skill sets
[09:50] <bashrc> I'm not seeing many fewer folks coming out of universities.  Are all of those people unemployable.  That doesn't seem plausible
[09:52] <foobarry> my problem is inflexible HR process
[09:52] <foobarry> we see good people sometimes but cannot tweak our JD or pay scale up or down to accomodate them
[09:53] <jussi> yeah, I think for us, its more that there is right now a gap in the market for certain skill sets, with experience.
[09:53] <bashrc> I've seen recent university science graduates become unix hackers within a few months of employment
[09:55] <bashrc> so I don't think htere is an IQ deficit
[09:58] <MooDoo> are employers wanting experience or grades, I know that i'd prefer experience over a uni degree
[09:59] <foobarry> experience propped up with a degree
[09:59] <MooDoo> :)
[09:59] <foobarry> there are exceptions but i feel a good Bsc degree underpins your approach to work
[10:00] <foobarry> even affecting guys in their 30s+ who don't seem to understand principles of computing
[10:00] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: I don't know.. lots of BSc's I know knew a lot of theory, not much practice.
[10:00] <BigRedS> I keep meaning to do a CS 101 style course to get some of the underlying theory down
[10:00] <MooDoo> I don't have a degree and I seem to be doing ok for myself lol
[10:00] <BigRedS> most of my knowledge of how computers work is related directly to kernel complaints
[10:01] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: yeah, I think a degree for the theory plus experience for the practice is what's being advocated
[10:01] <diplo> Anyone heard from SuperMatt ?
[10:02] <ali1234> the problem is that employers want a degree and 5 years of experience and they also want you to be 22 so they can pay you as little as possible
[10:02] <MooDoo> diplo: not lately, probably too busy with rackspace.
[10:05] <BigRedS> ali1234: I think a problem is the vagueness. When I was looking for work most positions were really vague on what they wanted
[10:06] <BigRedS> "£22K+; a PHd in CS would be an advantage but isn't essential"
[10:06] <BigRedS> so "We'll consider anybody, but not give any clues as to what the position is"
[10:06] <ali1234> that means one of two things
[10:07] <ali1234> either there is no position, or it means you will be the sole "computer expert" for the entire company
[10:09] <diplo> I can't see sometimes how this advantage is with having a phd.. I had lots of consultants in at my last place. Qualified till the hilt with sod all real world experience except writing down 'This would be good for you' but with never implementing it
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: 22k£? Is that before or after tax?
[10:18] <BigRedS> Ah, they never made that clear either, so before
[10:18] <BigRedS> that was a made-up number
[10:25] <czajkowski> Aloha
[10:25] <MooDoo> morning Laura
[10:26] <czajkowski> ello
[10:30] <bigcalm> WAH!
[10:30] <bigcalm> ETA has moved to tomorrow
[10:30] <bigcalm> Oh well, back to work
[10:44] <DJones> Does anybody know how to change the data range for a chart in LibreOffice
[10:50] <MooDoo> jussi: are you anything to do with ubuntu bots?
[10:51] <MooDoo> jussi: it's ok ignore that
[11:00] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:01]  * popey goes to get his eyes tested
[11:02] <bigcalm> No laptop for me today *sniff*
[11:04] <MooDoo> morning davmor2
[11:06] <davmor2> bigcalm: tell me you wouldn't think about getting this http://thisisnthappiness.com/post/74108351942/lego-escher
[11:07] <bigcalm> davmor2: seen it before and would love it as a kit
[11:10] <davmor2> bigcalm: Sue wants it so I can build it for her :D
[11:16]  * czajkowski pokes davmor2 ello
[11:17] <davmor2> czajkowski: hello trouble how are you?
[11:20] <czajkowski> not bad looking at events I want to go to
[11:20] <czajkowski> and this one has caught my eye based on the name alone thegeekgathering.org
[11:22] <MooDoo> wow 2013 had some great speakers
[11:25] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: 7.1? 5.1? 7.2?
[11:26] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: excuse me?  don't get you?
[11:28] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: speakers.. 7 front 1 subwoofer, etc.
[11:28] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: oh i meant people speakers at a conference...or were you trying to be funny ;)
[11:30] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: both ;)
[11:30] <davmor2> MooDoo, MartijnVdS: see that would of worked if you said, Dolby Digital, mono or stereo? :)
[11:30] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: yeah :)
[11:30] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: Pro Logic, btw.
[11:30] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: haha
[11:31] <MooDoo> you're all gits
[11:31] <davmor2> MooDoo: geeks man you need to fix your autocorrect
[11:32] <MooDoo> davmor2: no I believe I was correct in the first instance ;)
[11:33] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: <something about checking out and commmitting>
[11:34] <davmor2> MooDoo: well that as well :P
[11:35] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: I hate committing :)
[11:37] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: watch out for a detached head state then :)
[11:39] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: I'd repond if I knew git ;)
[11:41] <RaxMatt> diplo: I'm here
[11:41] <davmor2> MooDoo: you only hate committing because when you do they put you in the padded room right ;)
[11:41] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: you could just tag someone else
[11:42] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: I prefer stab, and I can do that to czajkowski and davmor2  :D
[11:42] <DJones> MooDoo: davmor2 Its easy to tell the difference between geek & Git, git pull downloads software, geek pull normally downloads a punch
[11:42] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/mr+stabby/ ?
[11:43] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: like it :D
[11:45] <Myrtti> in other, exiting news http://phys.org/news/2014-01-fastest-real-world-fiber-14tbs.html
[11:46] <Myrtti> "This is believed to be the fastest speed ever achieved in commercial grade hardware in a real-world environment and is equivalent to transmitting 44 uncompressed HD films in a single second.
[11:46] <Myrtti> "
[11:47] <BigRedS> Is that the 14 year old?
[11:47] <diplo> RaxMatt: Was just going to see how things were going ?
[11:48] <MooDoo> BigRedS: ?
[11:48] <BigRedS> ah. no
[11:49] <RaxMatt> diplo: they're going very well thanks. It's a little slow this week because training isn't as forth coming as it otherwise would have been, but it's a lot of fun being here
[11:49] <BigRedS> there was a site going round the other day where a kid was saying he'd solved everyone's compression issues
[11:49] <BigRedS> I didn't see the URL before somehiow
[11:51] <MooDoo> global jam in a few months - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[11:54] <diplo> RaxMatt: Great, glad to hear it.. will have to keep us updated on it :)
[11:55] <RaxMatt> I shall
[11:56] <RaxMatt> though I'm sure you're all eager to know if I can get you a discount
[11:56] <RaxMatt> the answer is no
[11:56] <diplo> Nah, I've looked at jobs @ rackspace before, but it's to far away for me :/
[11:56] <diplo> And discounts, no! Free stuff, yeah! :P
[11:58] <MooDoo> ah RaxMatt wondered who you were :D
[11:58] <RaxMatt> :D
[11:58] <Myrtti> yeah, took me a while too
[12:04] <MooDoo> RaxMatt: are you there now?  having fun?
[12:04] <RaxMatt> I am, and I am
[12:04] <MooDoo> RaxMatt: and you're on irc, result :D
[12:06] <bigcalm> davmor2: how does it look for tonight?
[12:07] <RaxMatt> well I'm not getting much in the way of training just yet, so I've been told I can do anything
[12:07] <RaxMatt> I'm not going to be able to do customer stuff for 6 weeks
[12:07] <davmor2> I'm going he is having an autopsy so no news about anything till Friday at the earliest
[12:07] <davmor2> bigcalm: ^]
[12:07] <MooDoo> RaxMatt: 6 weeks?  that the learning term?
[12:07] <bigcalm> davmor2: hope you're okay man
[12:08] <MooDoo> davmor2: ?
[12:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: bit gutted but other than that I'm good thanks ;)
[12:08] <davmor2> MooDoo: uncle died at the weekend
[12:08] <bigcalm> davmor2: have an early wake for the man :)
[12:08] <MooDoo> davmor2: ah sorry to hear that chap
[12:08] <RaxMatt> MooDoo: yuppers!
[12:09] <MooDoo> RaxMatt: wow, and too busy to train you eh lol
[12:09] <RaxMatt> well, someone started last week, so they've started his training already (some of it already organised for this week). So they're gonna make me join his training from next week onwards, and play catch up with the things I didn't learn later in the 6 weeks
[12:10] <MooDoo> RaxMatt: self learning time it is then :D
[12:10] <MooDoo> RaxMatt: put your flag up :)
[12:11] <RaxMatt> I haven't got my flag yet. I'm gonna try and get a gotham city flag or a batman flag
[12:11] <MooDoo> lol
[12:12] <davmor2> RaxMatt: Walk outside and shout this linux and openstack thing is just never gonna work, you'll be amazed at how many people take the time to prove you wrong ;)
[12:12] <RaxMatt> hah, I'm not going to do that
[12:14] <davmor2> RaxMatt: You're just no fun at all are you :P  Enjoy from what I understand they are a really cool team there :)
[12:14] <bigcalm> RaxMatt: why the change of nick?
[12:15] <RaxMatt> because I work for rackspace now
[12:15] <MooDoo> RaxMatt: now you'll have to start nominating people to work at rackspace -
[12:15] <bigcalm> RaxMatt: in the mean time you could assist Rory in working our our VPN problems ;)
[12:15] <davmor2> bigcalm: RaxMatt worked for superman before?
[12:16] <hoover> Hey biggie!
[12:16] <bigcalm> davmor2: ah, that would make sense
[12:16] <bigcalm> Hi hoovie :)
[12:16] <RaxMatt> bigcalm: nope, can't do customer stuff!
[12:16] <bigcalm> Poo
[12:16] <RaxMatt> plus, you might not be one of my customers
[12:17] <bigcalm> RaxMatt: it would be amusing if that happened
[12:17] <RaxMatt> brb, gonna get lunch from the exceptionally cheap hardrack cafe
[12:17] <bigcalm> Oh dear me
[12:17] <RaxMatt> basically if you're an smb spending less than 5K on linux, I'm your man
[12:17] <RaxMatt> brb
[12:18] <ali1234> that's funny, cos when i worked for an SMB spending less than 5k on linux, rackspace were basically "yeah we don't do anything that small"
[12:18] <bigcalm> I have no idea how much our client is spending with Rackspace.
[12:18] <ali1234> that was several years ago though
[12:19] <foobarry> arrrgh why did i update java..nothing works
[12:21] <foobarry> Starting with Java 7 Update 51, Java has enhanced security model to make user system less vulnerable to the external exploits. The new version of Java does not allow users to run the applications that are not signed (Unsigned), Self signed (not signed by trusted authority) and the applications that are missing permission attributes.
[12:21] <MartijnVdS> so actually useful updates
[12:21] <MartijnVdS> finally
[12:22] <Myrtti> foobarry: yeah, we got hit by that at work
[12:22] <knightwise> heya
[12:23] <foobarry> Myrtti: the suggested workaround doesn't have a site list
[12:23] <foobarry> security-edit site list no existy
[12:27] <foobarry> ah, because in windows, the control panel-Java points to the old version, how helpful
[12:31] <balor> Can anyone tell me the i10n shorthand for Wales?  For example en-gb is British English, ga-ie is Gaelic Irish, what's Welsh?  Internet searches suggest cy-gb, but CY is the ISO 3166 and TLD for Cyprus.
[12:32] <shauno> cy-gb should be correct
[12:32] <balor> http://cy.wikipedia.org is Welsh, so I suppose cy it is.
[12:32] <RaxMatt> ali1234: the difference now I guess is cloud computing
[12:32] <shauno> it's lang-country, where lang is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-1_codes and country you already have nailed
[12:34] <davmor2> balor: cy for Cymru
[12:36] <balor> davmor2, thanks.  I'm sure the Cypriots are pleased :)
[12:41] <MartijnVdS> balor: well, they're having enough trouble figuring out if they're Greek or Turkish, right?
[12:44] <knightwise> MartijnVdS: your tip worked :)
[12:44] <knightwise> Wifi now restored to normal speeds on my notebook
[12:44] <knightwise> :)
[12:45] <davmor2> knightwise: oh what tip was that then?
[12:47] <knightwise> http://askubuntu.com/questions/119578/how-to-fix-slow-wireless-on-machines-with-intel-wireless-cards
[12:47] <knightwise> had a terrible time trying to mix up an intell wifi card and a broadcom chip on my Asus router
[12:58] <popey> \o/ 16GB
[12:58] <foobarry> you know you marry well when you wife opens a convo "" Just got the fake windows call [scam]"
[12:58] <foobarry> "he hung up as soon as I said that it was interesting because I don't use windows"
[12:59] <foobarry> my brother, an intelligent man, rang in a panic "foobarry, this man is on the phone from canada saying people are attacking my pc right now"
[13:04] <BigRedS> knightwise: iwlwifi.11n_disable=1 ?
[13:04] <MartijnVdS> it should still be slow
[13:05] <MartijnVdS> as 802.11g *is* slow :)
[13:05] <knightwise> BigRedS: correct
[13:06] <BigRedS> I was bemused to hear the other day that wifi comes in faster-than-54Mbps flavours
[13:07] <BigRedS> knightwise: yeah, I briefly didn't need that but I've gone back about ten kernels to Crunchbang and it's definitely necessary again
[13:07] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: my advertised-as-300MBps doesn't really go that fast though :)
[13:07] <foobarry> are you guys seeing dropped packets etc?
[13:07] <foobarry> with pings, or other effects?
[13:07] <BigRedS> foobarry: on mine the thing just disappears and NM claims an inability to configure it
[13:08] <BigRedS> I can't remember in all honesty, I last debugged it about a year ago and have just shoved that line onto my cmdline fairly automatically since
[13:08] <foobarry> BigRedS: its fixed in later kernel?
[13:08] <BigRedS> not in whatever 13.10 had a month or so ago
[13:10]  * diplo is hereing Mr popey on Linux Unplugged, thought I recognised the voice
[13:10] <diplo> :)
[13:10] <bigcalm> popey: as my laptop's ETA has changed to tomorrow, you have an extra day to make 14.04 be more awesome before I install it
[13:13] <popey> "thanks"
[13:15] <bigcalm> popey: most welcome ;)
[13:15] <bigcalm> popey: so are you running memtest on your new 16GB to see that it all works?
[13:15] <popey> i only run memtest when things break
[13:15] <popey> KiB Mem:  16314304 total,  7999684 used,  8314620 free,     1700 buffers
[13:15] <popey> seems to be working
[13:16] <MartijnVdS> time to open a few more tabs
[13:16] <MartijnVdS> you're not using >50% of it!
[13:16] <popey> or a VM or five
[13:16] <MartijnVdS> why not
[13:20] <BigRedS> what's everyone's favourite desktop virt? I'd like one that only does anything to my networking when it's actually running, ideally
[13:20] <ali1234> virtualbox?
[13:21] <BigRedS> Yeah, the only reason I have to not use that is 'oracle'
[13:21] <ali1234> virtualbox-ose?
[13:21] <BigRedS> which isn't a very good one
[13:27] <knightwise> Virtualbox :) I love its command line interface
[13:27] <foobarry> i use vmware player for occasional spin ups of vms
[13:27] <MartijnVdS> vbox is great.. until you want to suspend your laptop with a VM running
[13:27] <MartijnVdS> then it prevents suspend
[13:28] <ali1234> suspend the VM first
[13:28] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it should do that for me, then bring it back on host-resume
[13:28] <popey> what do you want to virtualise?
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> a development box, created by vagrant
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> but I don't want to hunt down vagrant boxes when I need to catch my bus
[13:29] <ali1234> MartijnVdS: it can't be hard to implement
[13:29] <popey> ^ BigRedS ☻
[13:29] <foobarry> kvm is good but not v nice tools
[13:30] <MartijnVdS> virsh is nice once you've used it a bit
[13:30] <MartijnVdS> but yeah it's a lot of manual stuff
[13:31] <dwatkins> there's a GUI for qemu, too
[13:31] <popey> !info virt-manager
[13:31] <foobarry> vmware does special things when it installs ubuntu - do others do that too?
[13:31] <foobarry> quick config type stuff
[13:31] <foobarry> virt-manager is so redhat
[13:31] <foobarry> ugly grey boxes, looks alpha quality
[13:32] <ali1234> do people say "Q-M-U" or "kee-moo"?
[13:32] <ali1234> i saw a video where some guy kept saying "kee-moo" and i had no idea what he was talking about for like 10 minutes
[13:32] <diddledan__> neither. que emu
[13:33] <ali1234> like the spanish?
[13:33] <ali1234> why would you say it like that?
[13:33] <diddledan__> no like queue
[13:33] <ali1234> like queue emu?
[13:33] <ali1234> like the bird?
[13:33] <popey> queue emu
[13:33] <popey> yes
[13:34] <popey> kyoo-eee-myoo
[13:34] <dwatkins> kew emm you
[13:34] <diddledan__> guy who recently left at work used to call it kwaymoo
[13:35] <MooDoo> oh that's strange as i call it kwem-oo
[13:36] <popey> potato/potato
[13:36] <diddledan__> spud
[13:36] <diddledan__> :-p
[13:36] <popey> tayto → czajkowski
[13:36] <foobarry> kwemu
[13:36] <diddledan__> can't go wrong with either "tatties" or "spuds" :-p
[13:36] <MooDoo> oh you said tatties ;)
[13:37] <dwatkins> t8r
[13:38] <davmor2> diddledan__: I can't call them tatties not after Russell Howard called breasts Tattiebojangles
[13:38] <diddledan__> lol
[13:38] <Myrtti> virt-manager is nice
[13:39] <diddledan__> I like the big bang theory name for a breast-centric magazine: "bombay badonkadonks"
[13:39] <czajkowski> :D
[13:39] <directhex> um...
[13:39] <directhex> that'd be butts, not breasts
[13:39] <Myrtti> my irssi vm got stuck waiting for a harddrive to appear that I've got with me in Finland and I just connected over qemu+ssh and fixed it
[13:39] <diddledan__> really?
[13:39] <directhex> really
[13:39] <diddledan__> shows how well I know my pr0n :-p
[13:39] <ali1234> i pity anyone reading this log... how to pronounce "qemu" to "butts" in 20 lines
[13:41] <diddledan__> ali1234: impressive, no?
[13:41] <davmor2> ali1234: I'm pretty sure we can discount about 10 lines of that from people being sensible :D
[13:41] <knightwise> Lol
[13:41] <foobarry> /clear
[13:41] <knightwise> I run all the services I need in VMs on top of my linux machine
[13:42] <knightwise> the linux "host" machine is basically a NAS with VMware software on it sharing out all the data via samba
[13:42] <diddledan__> knightwise: which hypervisor tech do you use?
[13:42] <diddledan__> aah
[13:42] <diddledan__> vmware server or workstation?
[13:42] <knightwise> Virtualbox on a LMDE machine
[13:42] <knightwise> 3 Vm"s taking care of the different services like plex , remote login etc etc
[13:42] <directhex> vbox :'(
[13:43] <knightwise> that way I can easily swap out functionalities/servers without having to touch the base system
[13:43] <diddledan__> yeah, I don't like vbox since oracle pwn'd it
[14:06] <foobarry> massive headache incoming
[14:06] <foobarry> think i've caught the kids cold
[14:06] <BigRedS> popey: linuxes, generally debian
[14:07] <BigRedS> so I tried virt-manager and LXC but LXC's helper scripts are a bit broken in Wheezy
[14:07] <MartijnVdS> I don't trust LXC
[14:07] <BigRedS> and more than once something's been confused by that always-up virtbr1 device
[14:07] <MartijnVdS> it's not virtual enough
[14:08] <BigRedS> we use openvz a fair bit at work so I'm fairly comfortable with the concept, and LXC is the modern and hip equivalent
[14:11] <Myrtti> well then http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryanair-partners-with-google-flight-search
[14:13] <diplo> I've never tried openvz is it easy enough to use, I've tried kvm multiple times with virt-manager etc and just don't seem to get on with it that well
[14:25] <popey> BigRedS: desktop or server I meant, kvm should be good enough IMO
[14:42] <popey> had my eyes tested today. pondering what best value for specs is
[14:42] <popey> I'll only need them for close up work (soldering) currently, but will need them for reading in the future (3 years maybe)
[14:43] <popey> do people buy online or is it a case that you really need to go to bricks & mortar?
[14:45] <MartijnVdS> popey: people get their eyes measured "IRL", but I know a few who've ordered glasses online after that
[14:45] <MartijnVdS> all you need is the inter-eye distance, and the lens parameters
[14:45] <popey> i have some numbers on a card, I guess that's it?
[14:46] <diplo> I've not done online yet, but I'm debating it next time
[14:46] <diplo> Yeah your report card from the opticians is all you need
[14:46] <foobarry> who tested your eyes?
[14:46] <popey> sphere, cyl and axis
[14:46] <diplo> http://www.glasses.com/virtual-try-on.html
[14:46] <diplo> Saw this the other day
[14:46] <popey> +1.25, -0.5, 90 and +1.25, -0.25, 90
[14:46] <popey> that look like the right numbers?
[14:47] <popey> foobarry: optician
[14:47] <foobarry> no idea about this but do people usually go for 2nd opinion?
[14:47] <foobarry> or is it clear cut
[14:47] <MartijnVdS> popey: those look like mine, except I have -1.50ish
[14:48] <popey> i trust this guy
[14:48] <diplo> popey: yep, same as mine :)
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> popey: it's sphere/cylinder/axis, one for each eye
[14:48] <popey> been to him before
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> (cylinder + cylinder-axis, there's also a lesser-used prism + prism-axis)
[14:49] <MartijnVdS> http://www.vision-training.com/en/Vision%20test/Understand%20presecription.html
[14:49] <popey> he said he slightly over-prescribed so they'd last longer as they turn from "doing electronics with the kids" glasses into "reading" glasses
[14:49] <popey> ta
[14:57] <bigcalm> popey: I order my glasses from these people: http://www.spex4less.com/
[14:57] <awilkins> I just have a pair of +1 reading glasses I bought off the shelf in Sainsbury's
[14:58] <awilkins> Plastic lenses, no frames
[14:58] <awilkins> Useful up to about 2 feet away from my eyeballs
[14:58] <bigcalm> awilkins: you have a very long nose
[15:01]  * popey hugs laney for bug 959505
[15:01] <foobarry> \o/
[15:01] <foobarry> gets me a lot
[15:02] <Laney> not my favourite behaviour
[15:03] <MartijnVdS> didn't upstream claim it was a feature?
[15:03] <Laney> it didn't happen by accident
[15:04] <MartijnVdS> i.e. it was a feature
[15:04] <foobarry> however its not possible
[15:04] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: Gnome devs are not known for common sense
[15:04] <foobarry> so a half baked feature
[15:05] <awilkins> Recently used can contain folders...
[15:05] <awilkins> ... but yes, it's mostly a bit daft
[15:05] <bigcalm> Maybe the idea is that you then chose a directory from those recently used?
[15:05] <Dave2> Solution: use a real text editor
[15:05]  * Dave2 hides.
[15:05] <bigcalm> Use a real IDE ;)
[15:05] <TwistedLucidity> Dave2: MS Word?
[15:05] <Dave2> Said real IDE being called "vim"
[15:05] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: Excel of course.
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: that's also the One True Database System
[15:06] <awilkins> The main thing that annoys me about Unix text editors (including vim) is they append a final line ending to files even when there wasn't one
[15:06] <awilkins> It's a niche thing
[15:06] <Seeker`> C files are meant to have one
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> you can configure them to not do that ususally
[15:06] <awilkins> But there are certain files in certain VCS repositories (bzr, I'm looking at you) that don't cope with it
[15:06] <popey> Dave2: gvim does the same as gedit ☻
[15:06] <Seeker`> you should only be writing C on unix :P
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: and Perl
[15:07] <TwistedLucidity> Seeker`: C? Pfft. Use butterflies.
[15:07] <Seeker`> none of this VCS nonsense :P Remember, its 1970!
[15:07] <awilkins> popey, I don't run into that with gvim usually because I either use :w ~/thefile.txt
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: rcs.
[15:07] <Dave2> popey: :w ~/foo.txt
[15:07] <awilkins> Or I'm editing an existing file
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> or I'm editing a non-existing (but named from the command line) file
[15:08] <awilkins> That too
[15:08] <awilkins> I very rarely click the menus in gvim except for things like colorscheme
[15:08] <awilkins> And Copy and Paste, ironically, when I want to paste to another app
[15:09] <awilkins> Although I think ctrl-shift-C etc work actually /me checks
[15:09] <awilkins> No. They don't. Maybe in vim in a terminal.
[15:09] <awilkins> Yes, that works
[15:10] <Dave2> +gP to paste, or something
[15:10] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: "*p
[15:10] <Dave2> "gP
[15:10] <MartijnVdS> register * = system clipboard
[15:11] <Dave2> oh, that's a bit easier than "+gP
[15:11] <MartijnVdS> register + = "copy/paste" clipboard (* = middle click clipboard)
[15:11] <Dave2> I shall have to remember that
[15:11] <Dave2> ahh,
[15:11] <Dave2> that makes sense
[15:12] <Dave2> I usually don't bother and just use the menus but decided that I should really learn it
[15:12] <MartijnVdS> I'm thinking of just mapping it to Ctrl+Shift+[CV]
[15:17] <bigcalm> From a Rackspace support ticket "There are a couple of reasons why your edge device is dropping this connection. One of those is that some devices don't support multiple SAs running at the same time." - What's an SA?
[15:19] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: context?
[15:19] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: VPN
[15:19] <bigcalm> IPsec
[15:20] <MartijnVdS> security associations
[15:20] <bigcalm> Okay, I still don't understand :)
[15:21] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: Basic IPSec ;)
[15:21] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPsec#Security_association
[15:22] <bigcalm> Humm, okay
[15:22]  * bigcalm passes the buck :D
[15:25] <jpds> ipsec++
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: time to go to ipsec training! ;)
[15:26] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: I'd rather not :P That's what Rackspace are there to do
[15:27] <bigcalm> Anybody who has used Walsh Western before know what "PLAN COMMITTED" is meant to be?
[15:31] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: wasn't SuperMatt going to work for them? :)
[15:31] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: git add ~/.plan; git commit
[15:31] <RaxMatt> going to work for you?
[15:31] <RaxMatt> *who?
[15:31] <MartijnVdS> RaxMatt: Rackspace?
[15:31] <RaxMatt> yes
[15:31] <RaxMatt> I'm here now
[15:32] <RaxMatt> Should I just start highlighting Rackspace so I can support you all from here?
[15:32] <MartijnVdS> RaxMatt: see bigcalm's lines about vpns and rackspace :)
[15:32] <RaxMatt> I'm actually not allowed to do customer stuff yet :P
[15:32] <bigcalm> I'm acting as a little bit of a middle man at the moment I fear
[15:43] <MartijnVdS> http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-2-21jan14-en.htm
[15:43] <MartijnVdS> new GTLDs
[16:37] <shauno> they seem to have burried the list quite well
[17:06] <jussi> MooDoo: I am, but then again, you said ignre it... :P
[17:17] <bigcalm> Crontab: */1 * * * * - run once per minute?
[17:18] <popey> or * * * * *
[17:18] <directhex> */1 == *
[17:19] <bigcalm> Indeed, but I've come across the above from a client
[17:19] <bigcalm> Just checking that what they've done is weird
[17:22] <bigcalm> There are instances of */2 and */5, I guess things got whittled down to */1 for some
[17:24] <bigcalm> Date	Time	Location	Activity
[17:24] <bigcalm> 22/01/14	 16:07	 WWI - LUTTERWORTH	 ORDER DISPATCHED FROM HUB.
[17:24] <bigcalm> Lutterworth is 1 hour 14 minutes away from me according to google maps
[17:24] <bigcalm> What are the chances of a delivery tonight?
[17:25] <popey> KiB Mem:  16314304 total, 14374528 used,  1939776 free,     1700 buffers
[17:25] <popey> KiB Swap:  8501244 total,        0 used,  8501244 free.  6869884 cached Mem
[17:25] <popey> \o/
[17:25] <popey> still no swap used
[17:25] <bigcalm> How are you using 14GB?
[17:25] <popey>  1710 root      20   0 1380056 1.006g 160268 S  11.6  6.5  45:28.05 Xorg
[17:25] <popey> I'm not using 14G
[17:26] <popey> 6.8G is cache
[17:26] <bigcalm> 14374528 = 13.7GB
[17:29] <popey> you're not reading it right
[17:29] <popey> used doesn't mean "consumed by applications" in top
[17:29] <bigcalm> I never do :)
[17:29] <popey> heh
[17:30] <bigcalm> I've never understood the output of top and free
[17:34] <popey> used includes cached AIUI
[17:37] <bigcalm> I see
[17:44] <bigcalm> RaxMatt: have you heard of the name Curtis Nicholson?
[17:44] <bigcalm> He's one of our 'SErvice Delivery Managers'
[17:51] <bigcalm> Is there a crontab setting that might be disabling sending mail by default? I'm scratching my head with this client's server
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: only by disabling cron.. you could set MAILTO= to some invalid/nullrouted address
[18:11] <bigcalm> I have a file of crontab jobs in /etc/cron.d/. If I edit that file, when would the changes take effect?
[18:13] <MartijnVdS> the moment cron notices the file to be changed
[18:17]  * bigcalm grumbles at this server
[18:20] <bigcalm> I wonder if there is a problem with this file of cronjobs
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: restart crond and check syslog
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: it'll grumble there if there's a broken file
[18:21] <bigcalm> Ta :)
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: but only once.. so if you put a broken crontab somewhere, it will *ignore* it (permissions wrong = broken too)
[18:22] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: so I see!
[18:22] <bigcalm> Jan 22 18:22:01 localhost cron[9591]: (*system*td-mail-crons) WRONG FILE OWNER (/etc/cron.d/td-mail-crons)
[18:22] <bigcalm> This is annoying :)
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> those files should be root:root
[18:24] <bigcalm> Jan 22 18:24:01 localhost cron[9591]: (*system*td-mail-crons) INSECURE MODE (group/other writable) (/etc/cron.d/td-mail-crons)
[18:24] <bigcalm> Yeah
[18:24] <bigcalm> Meh
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> but yeah it only warns once per restart I think.. and maybe once every time you change the file or change permissions on the file
[18:24] <bigcalm> We're using jenkins for automatic deployment of a project. One of the bits is a crontab job file
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> that must be able to set permissions
[18:26] <bigcalm> I understand that the file needs to be secure
[18:26] <bigcalm> But getting this crontab file deployed automatically is proving a tad annoying
[18:28] <Rix0n> Hi, I've not dabbled in linux/ubuntu for a while, and I'm running 12.04... I've forgotten the name of the package I need to be able to mount NTFS filesystems. I've enabled the universe and multiverse sources but still can't find what I'm looking for.
[18:28] <bigcalm> Weeee
[18:28] <bigcalm> Jan 22 18:28:01 localhost cron[9591]: Error: bad minute; while reading /etc/cron.d/td-mail-crons
[18:28] <Rix0n> oh wait i take that back, I just installed restricted-extras and I can now browse them
[18:28] <bigcalm> Jan 22 18:28:01 localhost cron[9591]: (*system*td-mail-crons) ERROR (Syntax error, this crontab file will be ignored)
[18:28]  * bigcalm sighs
[18:31] <bigcalm> Ah, I think that error is down to a comment line of ###########################
[18:32] <bigcalm> I think cron expects all comments to start with '# ' (space)
[18:47] <bigcalm> Every line in the crontab file is commented out and yet it still complains about 'bad minute'
[18:47] <bigcalm> I think I might give up for the evening
[18:47] <bigcalm> Shower before LUG I think
[19:07] <DJones> Heh, unusual (and puts things into perspective in the real world) response to a software support request https://twitter.com/andrey_butov/status/426018565561401344/photo/1
[19:40] <RaxMatt> bigcalm: nope
[20:45] <MartijnVdS> aw poo. I lost my Debian keyring PGP key about a decade ago in a disk crash :(
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> (not that I don't already have all of Valve's games..)
[22:24] <Laney> future ones!
[22:25] <daftykins> huh?


[10:28] <Slown> Hello
[10:28] <Slown> anyone there ?
[19:57] <bashfulrobot> Slown: Come join us at https://discourse.ubuntubudgie.org/. Teh community is fairly active over there.


[07:49] <dholbach> good morning
[08:26] <stevebiscuit> Chipaca, mvo: if I build the snapd binary, is there an easy way of getting it running on a snappy VM?
[08:29] <mvo> stevebiscuit: yes, for some definition of "easy". Chipaca has the details, it should be a matter of just building and scp to the snappy system $HOME and starting it here. However I have not done this yet, I can give it a quick try. you could even do the development on snappy itself from the classic environment. let me quickly try if my suggestion actually works
[08:35] <stevebiscuit> mvo: I've tried killing off the running snapd and then running the scp'd one but it gives me "error: daemon does not handle 0 listeners right now, just one" which is do with systemd from my reading of the code
[08:35] <mvo> stevebiscuit: ok, this is actually slightly more complicated, I get the same. here is what you need to do:
[08:36] <mvo> stevebiscuit: sudo systemctl stop ubuntu-snappy.snapd.service ubuntu-snappy.snapd.socket
[08:36] <mvo> stevebiscuit: sudo /lib/systemd/systemd-activate -l /run/snapd.socket ./snapd
[08:41] <stevebiscuit> mvo: that works a treat, cheers!
[08:46] <mvo> stevebiscuit: great! https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy/pull/291 so that this is easier to find in the future
[09:01] <liuxg> Chipaca, ping
[09:58] <asac> sergiusens: is it right that its odd that if i have a typo in snapcraft python code like referencing an non existing var
[09:58] <asac> that it just bails with the error but no indication of line number etc.?
[09:59] <asac> or is that normal for python?
[09:59]  * asac feels like being in debugging stoneage when hacking on snapcraft etc.
[10:00] <sergiusens> asac, it is not normal, just user friendly, for devel I recommend you change one thing
[10:01] <sergiusens> asac, either remove try/except here or change sys.exit to raise e
[10:02] <sergiusens> asac, I'll add an envvar there so you can devel easier
[10:25] <sergiusens> Chipaca, hey, mind doing a review?
[10:26] <Chipaca> sergiusens: REVIEWS FOR THE REVIEW GOD
[10:26] <Chipaca> sergiusens: but she's busy, so I guess I'll do them instead
[10:26] <sergiusens> Chipaca, https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/pull/201
[10:27] <sergiusens> Chipaca, just the semantics for license keywords if you don't want to check code
[10:28] <Chipaca> sergiusens: reviewed
[10:29] <Chipaca> sergiusens: you dun good
[10:31] <asac> sergiusens: user friendly?
[10:36] <sergiusens> asac, end user; someone not introducing new code but using the tool
[10:36] <sergiusens> Chipaca, thanks
[10:40] <asac> sergiusens: ok, just couldnt see how not printing line number faults on error could help someone
[10:40] <asac> i would think best case someone using tool wont see errors
[10:40] <asac> but if he does he probably would want to have something useful to bug report
[10:41] <asac> but maybe i am missing some error cases where this would help
[10:52] <asac> sergiusens: anyway, env paired with entry in hacking.md etc. would be good (not that i read hacking.md, but at least i would have done that next i think)
[11:01] <asac> sergiusens: thoughts on https://gist.github.com/asac/d66ecdbb286e4a60269e
[11:01] <asac> thanks
[11:01] <asac> (note its not complete=
[11:02] <asac> not sure about run_raw... but i couldnt figure better way
[11:10] <asac> mvo: are there changes to snappy config protocol coming on master branch or do we stick to current approach for now?
[11:39] <brei> when I build a snap with snapcraft, not every file from the stage is copied to the snap folder. What are the filter criterias?
[11:58] <asac> kickinz1: so downloading i386 vs. amd64 docker-latest from https://docs.docker.com/engine/installation/binaries/ ... i see that the i386 is 7.X M and the amd64 is like 30M+ ?
[11:58] <asac> does that make sense?
[11:58] <kickinz1> asac: for me seems like i386 is only client side docker.
[11:58] <asac> kickinz1: like http://paste.ubuntu.com/14419442/
[11:59] <asac> 1.6 is 15M... latest is 30M
[11:59] <asac> even for 64
[11:59]  * asac scratches head
[12:00] <kickinz1> asac, there has been a lot of changes between 1.6 and 1.8-1.9 series (with arch support breakage).
[12:00] <asac> kickinz1: how do you check if a docker binary has just client?
[12:01] <kickinz1> You can try running it as a daemon, 'docker daemon' or 'docker -d' for prev 1.8
[12:01] <kickinz1> asac ^
[12:02] <sergiusens> asac, looks good, just not so sure about raw_config
[12:07] <asac> kickinz1: i moved to a different machien... do you have the link again :)?
[12:07] <asac> err
[12:07] <asac> sergiusens: ^
[12:07] <asac> sorry kickinz1
[12:07] <asac> thank kickinz1 ... seems that latest is busted i guess upstream
[12:09] <kickinz1> asac:  https://docs.docker.com/engine/installation/binaries/
[12:09] <asac> right wrong ping :)
[12:09] <kickinz1> asac: docker just support amd64 arch, so all other arches are client only iirc
[12:10] <asac> sergiusens: nevermind... found that github has history for me
[12:10] <asac> sergiusens: there is no raw_config ... just run_raw
[12:10] <asac> sergiusens: what i need to run is "yes" "" | make oldconfig
[12:10] <sergiusens> asac, good, because I have no idea what you were talking about wrt docker
[12:10] <kickinz1> asac, there are patches and an un-upstream way to build it that allow other arches to work.
[12:11] <asac> i couldnt figure how to do that with existing run methods
[12:11] <asac> sergiusens: ignore docker :)
[12:11] <asac> sergiusens: just the gist
[12:11] <sergiusens> asac, yeah, run_raw is what I meant, sorry
[12:12] <asac> sergiusens: yeah. so no ideas how to do it different?  e.g. good?
[12:13]  * asac finishes the patch and then thinks about tests
[12:16] <sergiusens> asac, I'm mostly sure you can implement run with what you have in run_raw
[12:16] <sergiusens> asac, btw https://gist.github.com/asac/d66ecdbb286e4a60269e#file-kbuild-diff-L56 your assert message is wrong here
[12:17] <sergiusens> asac, but I don't mind either way, this whole run thing is waiting for a refactor since forever
[12:18] <sergiusens> asac, the only thing missing in your diff are unit tests ;-)
[12:19] <asac> right. have to add one more featuure to allow starting with the kconfigfile instead of defconfig
[12:19] <asac> then will think about tests
[12:19] <asac> but i am very illeterate onthat,, so might need hand holding
[12:22] <asac> sergiusens: you think using an argument raw=False for run in __init__.py (avoiding a dupe in that file) would be good?
[12:22] <asac> oir should i rather just leave it to the refactor master?
[12:24] <kyrofa> Good morning
[12:25] <asac> hey kyrofa
[12:35] <kyrofa> Good morning again now that my internet is working
[12:40] <sergiusens> asac, I mean, the `exec $*` in regular run might as well be what you have in raw
[12:40] <sergiusens> kyrofa, ah, that explains the absence :-P
[12:40] <sergiusens> good morning
[12:41] <kyrofa> sergiusens, hey :P
[13:27] <kyrofa> Gahhh sergiusens the yaml tests sent me for a loop this morning
[13:27] <kyrofa> patcher = unittest.mock.patch('os.path.exists')
[13:27] <kyrofa>         mock_wrap_exe = patcher.start()
[13:27] <kyrofa>         mock_wrap_exe.return_value = True
[13:27] <kyrofa> ^^ didn't see that
[13:28] <kyrofa> sergiusens, I was starting to add debug prints to /usr/lib/python3.4/os.py :P
[13:50] <sergiusens> kyrofa, yeah, patching can do this sometimes
[14:02] <asac> sergiusens: right. i kind of sensed there is something in here... guess having exec nicely takes over the process and hides the parent shell hack for env
[14:02] <asac> sergiusens: on that, do you know why the initial code does not set the env through the python call_
[14:02] <asac> ?
[14:02] <asac> not complaining for my case, just wondered if python doesnt have easy way to just pump env to the command it runs
[14:04] <asac> bah... out of all the skills i have, i seem to be not smart enough to login to my local all snaps kvm using ssh -p XXXX ubuntu@localhost
[14:04] <sergiusens> asac, I inherited like this; I don't know
[14:05] <asac> let me reboot to latest .... maybe the dev 17 image is buggy on this, but i thought i managed to log in at some point
[14:05] <sergiusens> asac, all the env management still needs some work so actually use keys instead of a list
[14:07] <asac> sergiusens: does ssh to all snap kvm work for you?
[14:11] <asac> interestingly all host keys are 0 size... guess i know what might have happened ... i killed the first boot when it generated stuff
[14:12]  * asac redoes image
[14:13] <asac> do we crewate those keys using cloud-init still?
[14:13]  * asac wonders where to file bug in case this is the prob
[14:14] <sergiusens> asac, yes, still with cloud-init
[14:17] <asac> jdstrand: * adjust program to not use 'setgid' until per-snap user/groups are supported
[14:18] <asac> jdstrand: could we reference a tracking bug for that feature in the comment (though very nice guidance here)
[14:18] <asac> thats with snappy-debug.security scanlog
[14:19] <jdstrand> asac: sure
[14:23] <sergiusens> elopio, bumper https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/pull/201
[14:24] <asac> jdstrand: do you remember why busybox did use setgid on everything?
[14:24] <enoch85> kyrofa, hey! shall we continue? :)
[14:24] <asac> i remember we looked at the code a while back
[14:24] <asac> for the hello-world.sh thingy
[14:24] <kyrofa> Hey enoch85 :) . I have a meeting here in a minute, let me ping you
[14:25] <enoch85> kyrofa, okay! :)
[14:28]  * asac tries to disable SUID
[14:32] <kyrofa> sergiusens, elopio sorry guys... internet is flaking
[14:33] <sergiusens> kyrofa, we can wait
[14:33] <asac> jdstrand: nevermind... i fixed a config in build system to not support suid of bb and now it works \o/
[14:33] <jdstrand> asac: I don't, however bash can be used for hello-world.sh these days
[14:34] <jdstrand> (just fyi)
[14:38] <asac> yeah
[14:38] <asac> seems bizbox has a feature called CONFIG_FEATURE_SUID... i disabled it and now its fun
[14:39] <asac> sergiusens: is stage a no-op these days? seems that stage happens for each part during build?
[14:59] <asac> sergiusens: is there a wildcard feature for binaries? i would like to add all that is in stage/bin/ as binaries without having to keep them in sync
[15:02] <sergiusens> asac, you can use directories in your 'snap' directive
[15:03] <sergiusens> asac, stage is more complex in 2.x; it takes into account the dependencies (1.x is broken in this regard)
[15:07] <sergiusens> jdstrand, hey; is there a reason why I can't have spaces in my start keyword?
[15:07] <sergiusens> jdstrand, without allowing that I have to resort to things like this https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/blob/master/examples/shout/snapcraft.yaml#L9
[15:07] <sergiusens> jdstrand, with a wrapper script that only does https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/blob/master/examples/shout/shout.sh
[15:09] <jdstrand> sergiusens: are you saying you want to put the contents of the shout.sh script in 'start' in the yaml?
[15:10] <sergiusens> jdstrand, I want to be able to write 'start: shout --home $SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH'
[15:10] <jdstrand> right
[15:10] <sergiusens> jdstrand, ah, '$' is also not allowed
[15:11] <jdstrand> so, 'start' is not used with the APP_ID since in this example the app id is shout_server_0.52.0
[15:12] <jdstrand> so, I think this is to make sure that the systemd file is sane
[15:12] <sergiusens> jdstrand, I don't follow
[15:13] <jdstrand> what is in 'start' ends up in ExecStart in the systemd service
[15:14] <sergiusens> jdstrand, correct, and I'm using SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH, no APP_ID
[15:14] <sergiusens> not*
[15:15] <jdstrand> we need to be careful with ExecStart, since a crafted 'start' could run commands outside of confinement
[15:16] <sergiusens> jdstrand, so basically if I need switches or envvars I need to resort to wrapper scripts?
[15:16] <jdstrand> if we make the review tools and snappy not allow ';', perhaps we could allow arguments to start
[15:17] <jdstrand> I wasn't talking about env vars
[15:17] <sergiusens> jdstrand, that sounds reasonable
[15:17] <jdstrand> I would assume that if the unit properly set SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH then whatever was in ExecStart would see it
[15:18] <sergiusens> jdstrand, just asking since it is not allowed, spaces either iirc
[15:19] <sergiusens> if it is just because of a ; then I hope we can just block offenders
[15:19] <sergiusens> jdstrand, no rush though
[15:19] <jdstrand> if someone were to expand this in the manner you would like, we would have to proceed very carefully, because that would be an avenue of attack for a malicious app developer
[15:19] <sergiusens> jdstrand, yeah, that's why I say no rush :-)
[15:20] <jdstrand> historically, I feel like 'start' was used as part of the app id. ie, if 'name' was not specified or something
[15:21] <jdstrand> if start is not part of the app id ever any more, then allowing arguments would seem to make sense (if done carefully)
[15:22] <sergiusens> jdstrand, so appids are now uuids, right?
[15:22] <sergiusens> Chipaca, ? ^
[15:22] <sergiusens> well """now""" (many air quotes)
[15:23] <jdstrand> sergiusens: no, not in my current understanding. the app id is today as always. what we are moving to is uuid_appname_revision
[15:24] <jdstrand> sergiusens: where appname the 'name' in the yaml
[15:24] <jdstrand> for a service/binary
[15:24] <jdstrand> so pkgname goes to uuid and version goes to revision
[15:24] <jdstrand> but appname stays the same
[15:25] <sergiusens> jdstrand, right, pkgname is snap-id basically which is a uuid
[15:26]  * jdstrand nods
[15:27] <sergiusens> jdstrand, another thought is that the only envvars that can be used in a service are those exported in the service itself and we control that (snappy)
[15:36] <jdstrand> sergiusens: I thought that is more or less what systemd is doing with Environment
[15:41] <elopio> ping stgraber: I was trying to get a xenial lxc in travis to run the snapcraft tests, but it doesn't have network access:
[15:41] <elopio> https://travis-ci.org/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/builds/100523000
[15:41] <elopio> can you help me here?
[15:46] <kyrofa> enoch85, today may not work very well... I seem to be having some internet connectivity issues
[15:46] <stgraber> elopio: it may just be a timing thing, that is, your container doesn't have an IP address yet
[15:46] <elopio> stgraber: mmm, I'll add a sleep to check.
[15:47] <kyrofa> enoch85, but I do plan on working on that .snap today
[15:47] <enoch85> kyrofa, ok, feel free to work on the apache snap whenever you want. It's above my skill set anyway, so I feel I can't contribute.
[15:47] <stgraber> elopio: I'm also very surprised that you're able to install and run lxd in what looks like Travis' docker based environment. I thought they restricted what package and repositories you could install to prevent getting their whole infrastructure to be taken over
[15:47] <enoch85> kyrofa, I'm available all day. Just ping me. :)
[15:47] <kyrofa> enoch85, very good. I'll make sure to walk you through wha tI've done :)
[15:47] <elopio> stgraber: this is not a docker container. This is a trusty machine in google compute.
[15:48] <stgraber> elopio: oh, interesting, I didn't know they supported that
[15:49] <elopio> stgraber: it's been working for a couple of months. It's nice, but now we need xenial.
[15:49] <enoch85> kyrofa, sounds good :)
[15:50] <kyrofa> enoch85, sorry about that. I just keep dropping today :(
[15:51] <enoch85> kyrofa, np mate. get a better line :) ;)
[15:51] <kyrofa> I wish
[15:51] <enoch85> kyrofa, anyway, no stress.
[15:52] <enoch85> kyrofa, need to be done by the 20:th, so there is plenty of time
[15:52] <kyrofa> enoch85, alright sounds good :)
[16:33] <elopio> stgraber: no luck. After the sleep it still can't ping anything.
[16:38] <stgraber> elopio: might be worth running ifconfig inside the container and outside of it, just to check if things look sane
[16:39] <elopio> stgraber: ok, it'll take some minutes. Travis is slow today...
[16:39] <sergiusens> kyrofa, elopio I'll bbl in case someone pings me
[16:40] <kyrofa> sergiusens, alrighty
[17:04] <kyrofa> elopio, mind taking a look at https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/pull/204 ?
[17:23] <elopio> stgraber: the host shows lxcbr0. The container shows nothing:
[17:23] <elopio> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/14422058/
[17:23] <elopio> kyrofa: let me see.
[17:24] <elopio> kyrofa: what about an example test for this change?
[17:28] <kyrofa> elopio, what does that mean in snapcraft? Something that exercises this in snapcraft/examples?
[17:30] <stgraber> elopio: what's your travis.yml?
[17:30] <elopio> kyrofa: yes. Like a real world example that uses the new code.
[17:30] <stgraber> elopio: the behavior you're getting would be consistent with having an older version of lxc, or lack of lxcfs or systemd being unhappy in the container
[17:31] <elopio> stgraber: https://github.com/elopio/snapcraft/blob/lxd/.travis.yml
[17:31] <elopio> stgraber: I'm getting it from the lxd-stable ppa.
[17:31] <kyrofa> elopio, alright I'll throw something together :)
[17:31] <elopio> kyrofa: thank you.
[17:32] <stgraber> elopio: ok, add a "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -y" after the apt-get update and add "lxcfs" on the apt-get install line, just in case travis runs with recommends disabled by default.
[17:32]  * elopio tries.
[17:32] <stgraber> elopio: and add a "lxc exec xenial -- ps faux" too so we can see what's running in the container
[17:36] <kyrofa> elopio, do I also add the new example to TestSnapcraftExamples ?
[17:36] <elopio> kyrofa: to build it, yes. I'm guessing that it will require manual inspection to check that it works ok, am I right?
[17:37] <kyrofa> elopio, ah, yeah this is a runtime fix, not build
[17:37] <elopio> we might need to add a manual_tests dir, like in snappy.
[17:37] <kyrofa> elopio, and we're not running runtime tests, right?
[17:38] <elopio> kyrofa: we can from xenial, so just let me finish this PR and there will be automated runtime tests.
[17:39] <elopio> kyrofa: but I'm wondering is how to confirm that your example works ok automatically. Well, I better wait to see the example.
[17:40] <kyrofa> elopio, yeah, basically without this fix it fails to run since it can't link up with libgl. But it builds fine. With the fix it links and runs successfully
[17:41] <elopio> kyrofa: ok, so we can at least check that it doesn't return an error. For now leave it with the build test, and soon we'll start adding runtime tests for the examples.
[17:41] <kyrofa> elopio, good deal, adding now
[18:07] <kyrofa> elopio, alright, take another look at that PR for the example
[18:09] <elopio> stgraber: it pinged!
[18:09] <elopio> kyrofa: are you in a hurry, or can I go and get something to eat first?
[18:09] <stgraber> cool, so it was either an old pre-installed lxc or missing lxcfs
[18:09] <kyrofa> elopio, I'd like to get this merged today just so I can prepare the release, but my EOD is a few hours away yet
[18:10] <kyrofa> elopio, I'd never stand between you and food ;)
[18:11] <elopio> kyrofa: let me better review it first. Otherwise I'll keep thinking of you during lunch :p
[18:11] <kyrofa> elopio, hahaha
[18:12] <kyrofa> elopio, fortunately I don't think it could be simpler
[18:13] <elopio> yes, looks good. I like that we now have an opencv example!
[18:13] <kyrofa> elopio, awesome!
[18:54] <elopio> stgraber: is there a fancy way to wait for the ip? The sleep is making my nice script ugly.
[18:55] <stgraber> elopio: not a very nice one, but there is nicer than just a big sleep, yeah
[18:55] <stgraber> while ! lxc info tryit | grep -q eth0.*IPV4; do
[18:55] <stgraber>     sleep 5s
[18:55] <stgraber> done
[18:55] <stgraber> replace tryit by your container name
[18:56] <elopio> thanks!
[18:56] <elopio> -
[20:32] <kyrofa> sergiusens, is the fix to bug #1530995 to chmod before running, or run with sh?
[20:33] <kyrofa> sergiusens, which is the safer assumption-- we have permission to chmod, or it's actually using sh and not bash or something?
[20:51] <asac> sergiusens: by default all files from stage/ go to snap/ right?
[20:51]  * asac about to hit send on answer on ML
[20:57] <asac> damage done :=
[22:08] <sergiusens> asac, answer is yes


[18:47] <armin76> rsalveti: does bt work on natty?
[19:41] <rsalveti> armin76: not yet, but next upload should have it working
[20:20] <armin76> rsalveti: next upload of? kernel?
[20:22] <rsalveti> armin76: yup
[20:27] <armin76> nod, thanks


[15:32] <alkisg> I'm having problems with sdl sound in edubuntu Lucid (while plain Ubuntu Lucid works fine).
[15:32] <alkisg> Could it be that phonon somehow messes with the backends?
[15:37] <sbalneav> dunno, never played with phonon
[15:39] <alkisg> It gets installed by default in edubuntu, unfortunately :(
[15:39] <sbalneav> hm
[15:39] <alkisg> (either that or I did something wrong)
[15:40] <ogra> likely by kdeedu
[15:40] <highvoltage> I just checked the rdepents and it is indeed kdeedu apps that depend on it
[15:41] <alkisg> I heard that kde won't use pulseaudio as the default backend in Lucid, it'll be ready for pulseaudio but won't use it due to lack of testing. Maybe we should test/make it as the default backend in edubuntu (if that's actually the problem, that is...)
[15:41] <alkisg> As gcompris, tux* etc all use sdl
[15:42]  * alkisg will test more to pinpoint his problem
[15:44] <highvoltage> wow, rsyncing from the karmic dvd to the latest daily build is quite faster than I thought it would be
[15:44] <highvoltage> (just started a few minutes ago and it's already on 9%)
[15:44] <alkisg> Karmic? Wow...
[15:44] <alkisg> I use dl-ubuntu-test-iso, it's handy for syncing daily builds
[15:45] <highvoltage> I'll look into that, in the old days I used one of ogra's scripts
[15:45] <highvoltage> I don't want to sync every day though, it would make me poor :)
[15:45] <highvoltage> (I mean, poorer)
[15:46] <alkisg> How much do you pay to e.g. download a full dvd?
[15:48] <highvoltage> alkisg: around 25 euro
[15:49] <highvoltage> alkisg: I'm trying out a new ISP that's a bit cheaper atm, I think with them it will be around 15 euro instead.
[15:50] <alkisg> Wow internet is *really* expensive there... You'd be better off with freenx and a report VM
[15:51] <highvoltage> yeah
[15:51] <highvoltage> I like having it here though :)
[15:51] <highvoltage> and that's just for bandwidth, we also have to pay extra DSL rental on top of our phone line rental costs
[15:51] <alkisg> *remote, not report. What's wrong with me today?
[15:51] <highvoltage> so before I even transfer a bit my dsl line already costs me around 50 euro
[15:52] <alkisg> So what people percentage actually has internet? 1 out of 100?!!!
[15:52] <highvoltage> possibly quite a bit more than that, but when it comes to broadband internet... it's probably less than 1 out of a 100
[15:53] <highvoltage> most people connect using GPRS/EDGE/3G/HSDPA since there's no fixed monthly rental charges
[15:53] <highvoltage> so lots of people do that and pay 0.20 euro per MB for whatever amount of bandwidth they can afford
[15:55] <alkisg> I see... we mostly use that method for GPRS/3G here, as broadband is quite common/cheap. I only pay 20€ per month, and that includes my phone bill & internet access (6 mbps)
[15:56] <highvoltage> that seems quite common in europe
[15:56] <highvoltage> our expensiveness is purely due to our telecoms monopoly here
[15:57] <highvoltage> we had a competitor join in recently, but Telkom still controls pretty much everything (they're the only ones who can still provide DSL, for example)
[15:58] <alkisg> We had monopoly maybe 5 years ago, and _now_ the main provider starts lowering its prices :-/
[16:03] <alkisg> highvoltage: the ldm-crashing problem I was experiencing was because of LP #505787. I worked around the problem, and also I have FAT_CLIENT=True in my lts.conf, but I'm logging on normally (as a thin client) instead. Any hints?
[16:22]  * alkisg tries with LTSP_FATCLIENT=True instead of FAT_CLIENT=True...
[16:27] <highvoltage> alkisg: working?
[16:27] <alkisg> Yup, finally!
[16:28] <alkisg> phone, brb...
[16:40]  * stgraber bangs his head on the wall ... that CD building thing is really really complicated ...
[16:40] <stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~/data/code/ubuntu-cdimage$ find . | wc -l
[16:40] <stgraber> 1635
[16:40] <stgraber> that's all the scripts used to build a CD image ;)
[16:42] <highvoltage> wow. with that many files there's probably a lot of sourcing and run-partsing, etc
[16:44]  * alkisg hugs stgraber as well :)
[16:45] <stgraber> yep, lots of sourcing + it's debian packaged + there's a Makefile ;)
[16:45] <stgraber> just poked ubuntu-release about it, let's hope someone knows how that magic works (cjwatson is way too busy to look at it now)
[16:46] <alkisg> Wouldn't it be a good idea to install by default (in 010-fat-client) all the langpacks that the server has?
[16:47] <highvoltage> that's a good idea, I guess some people might like the chroot a bit smaller by default, but perhaps it should be an option
[16:48] <alkisg> Or at least the one that matches the server locale...
[16:51] <alkisg> Hmm maybe that switch could be handled by 030-late-packages...
[17:42] <highvoltage> sent 477715 bytes  received<PHONE_NUMBER> bytes  307589.97 bytes/sec
[17:42] <highvoltage> total size is<PHONE_NUMBER>  speedup is 1.49
[17:42] <highvoltage> that's between karmic release and the latest alpha iso
[17:42] <highvoltage> or at least, daily build
[18:59]  * stgraber is making progress on getting LTSP in the DVD image


[04:26] <sao> hey
[04:26] <sao> anyone can see me?
[04:26] <guiverc2> sao, Yes; if you have a Lubuntu support question, please ask it (try and keep to a single line, and be patient waiting for response, people will respond when they can)
[04:28] <sao> ok,thank you.im a patsy.i just want to see what is IRC and test it.
 sao, you should also try telegram, with telegram u can add another linux groubs to see, nice way to follow what u want about this
[08:38] <CamelRiderZ_> hey bois, how do i change my dns ??
[08:41] <The_LoudSpeaker> CamelRiderZ_: You can specify a dns server address to use from your network settings.
[08:41] <CamelRiderZ_> how
[08:41] <CamelRiderZ_> i am trying via the network manager - edit connections - ipv4
[08:41] <CamelRiderZ_> but it doesn't change
[08:42] <The_LoudSpeaker> @guiverc2: you ever faced ubuntu booting to black screen with blinking cursor after you set the integrated graphics as default using nvidia settings and reboot?
[08:43] <guiverc2> The_LoudSpeaker, sorry can't help
[08:43] <The_LoudSpeaker> CamelRiderZ_: it should be there under ipv4 settings.
[08:43]  * guiverc2 as in I don't know anything useful
[08:43] <The_LoudSpeaker> guiverc2: k. Thanks!
[08:43] <CamelRiderZ_> additional dns server ? The_LoudSpeaker ?
[08:47] <The_LoudSpeaker> Yup. That's the one CamelRiderZ_
[08:48] <CamelRiderZ_> yeah that's the problem
[08:48] <CamelRiderZ_> my dns is the same even when i change it
[08:48] <The_LoudSpeaker> What problem?
[08:48] <The_LoudSpeaker> Oh.
[08:49] <The_LoudSpeaker> Can you send a screenshot here? Using imgur or similar service?
[08:49] <The_LoudSpeaker> Screenshot of the settings screen.
[16:04] <jerome_> hi
[16:05] <diogenes_> hi
 @The_LoudSpeaker [@teward001 remember the sudo issue from the containers? Any updates on that?], nope, no changes on that bug.  (follow that bug for tracking)
[17:50] <particularlight> hellooo
[17:50] <particularlight> whats up guys?
 @particularlight [<particularlight> hellooo], Namaste!
 @particularlight [<particularlight> whats up guys?], Nothing. Just celebrating Shiv ratri. 🌿
 @teward001 [nope, no changes on that bug.  (follow that bug for tracking)], K.
[17:54] <particularlight> @lubot Sorry,what is "Shivratri"
[19:11] <The_LoudSpeaker> Ow they left.
[20:26] <Mee> .
[20:28] <wxl> ,
 •
[21:22] <wxl> °
 `
[21:31] <wxl> ´
[21:44] <The_LoudSpeaker> '
[21:50] <wxl> ❜
 guys, seems like u want more question from me:D
[22:10] <wxl> like "why are you guys so weird?"
 no, like " do u guys know im thankfull for all ur helps?" :)
[22:11] <wxl> happy to do it :)
[22:11] <wxl> and thank YOU for sticking around and helping others. that means a lot.
 i couldnt give even %1 of what i took
 also telegram helps a lot with ur bot:D
[22:12] <wxl> anything great than 0 is fantastic
 xD