[04:24] <willie_> anyone home?
[04:24] <holstein> yes.
[04:25] <willie_> G'evenin
[04:25] <willie_> I have a really basic question - it's embarassingly dopey
[04:25] <cfhowlett> yep
[04:25] <cfhowlett> willie_, bring it!
[04:26] <willie_> want to use Ktorrent as default for torrents. Tried using the search option in it, but that seemed either useless or not documented so that I could find an answer.
[04:27] <willie_> I want to know how to set Ktorrent up as my default magnet link grabber
[04:27] <willie_> any help on that? Or a better option?
[04:27] <cfhowlett> willie_, transmission works but still : easy
[04:28] <cfhowlett> willie_, in firefox?
[04:28] <willie_> when I click on a torrent, it asks me to select the application to download it with. I navigate to the use/share folder but can't find the right program file to hook it up to.
[04:29] <willie_> if I were to use transmission which file in the folder would I use?
[04:30] <holstein> i would select ktorrent from there.. if you want to use that
[04:30] <cfhowlett> willie_, I set my content type: magnet to action Use transmission-gtk
[04:31] <willie_> is that set up under the settings manager? (fyi - running 13.10
[04:31] <willie_> (
[04:31] <willie_> )
[04:32] <cfhowlett> willie_, no it's a firefox > preferences setting
[04:32] <holstein> i just download the torrent file, and open it with the torrent application i want to use
[04:33] <cfhowlett> New Dell M3800 workstation looks like it'll be a creative beast!  I asked the project lead on Sputnik to upgrade from the Dell XPS 13 to M3800.  Also begged/pleaded/demanded they fix UbuntuStudio to just work ... out oof the box.  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ycc5r4ftar5bgws/1dNCV20la5
[04:35] <holstein> cfhowlett: ?
[04:36] <holstein> ubuntustudio is "fixed" to do what it is designed to do out of the box
[04:36] <willie_> *snort* well, I am clueless. One sec and let me give it a try.
[04:36] <holstein> the only way to really address what i read that you are asking for is to beg/plead/demand that the vendors "fix" the hardware to be able to use ubuntu/linux
[04:37] <holstein> it should work pretty well there, though.. does is cfhowlett ?
[04:37] <willie_> Am in the right area in Firefox, but Magnet is not listed. Do I need to upgrage my firefox?
[04:37] <cfhowlett> holstein, doesn't come out for another few days.
[04:38] <cfhowlett> holstein, the xps13 is nice, but underpowered and under spec's for creative work - it's  a developer machine.  M3800 seems aimed to compete with the MacBook.
[04:39] <cfhowlett> willie_, I think magnet appears after you select one from a torrent site and you're asked what program you wish to assign to it.
[04:39] <willie_> ok
[04:39] <cfhowlett> wilee-nilee, but the latest firefox is 25 so if you need to update ...
[04:40] <willie_> just checked - I have 25. This is clearly and ID 10 T error
[04:43] <willie_> I appreciate the help!
[04:53] <wilee-nilee> huh, what, ;)
[04:54] <cfhowlett> wilee-nilee, I've NO idea what it means either ...
[04:54] <wilee-nilee> hehe
[04:56] <wilee-nilee> I'm just wiping away the tears after watching the nature show in PBS about parrots, heart wrenching stuff, those peer pretty birds that live so long and are intrinsically wild even when adopted.
[04:56] <wilee-nilee> poor*
[05:13] <willie_> Just dropping in to say thanks again. The problem is solved!
[05:13] <willie_> later
[05:13] <cfhowlett> nice
[10:58] <robford1> Hi all... Want to install US 13.10 tonight. only thing that really irritates me is the fact that there's no compositor in XFCE. Can anyone reccomend a workaround without having to install another window manager?
[13:33] <Siya> Grrr, turning off pulseaudio kills jack (Qjackctl dies)
[13:33] <Siya> I thought I could save a few cpu cycles
[13:40] <zequence> Siya: Sure you aren't just looking to disable the pulse-jack bridge?
[13:40] <zequence> one way to do that is: sudo apt-get remove pulseaudio-module-jack
[13:40] <zequence> then, restart pulseaudio: pulseaudio -k
[13:41] <zequence> killing pulseaudio would normally not affect jack at all
[13:50] <Siya> zequence: I figured I wouldn't need pulseaudio as alsaplayer can play mp3 and audio cd's too
[13:50] <Siya> would it save cpu cycles, or do I just turn it on again?
[13:51] <Siya> zequence: how does one disable the (default) bridge?
[13:54] <Siya> Oh crap, changed /etc/pulse/client.conf back and now pulseaudio still won't run properly
[13:55] <zequence> you need to start pulseaudio
[13:55] <zequence> better to disable it in the home folder, like so: echo "autospawn = no" > ~/.pulse
[13:55] <zequence> then: pulseaudio -k
[13:56] <zequence> To start it, just do: pulseaudio --start
[14:00] <robford1> Hi all... Want to install US 13.10 tonight. only thing that really irritates me is the fact that there's no compositor in XFCE. Can anyone reccomend a workaround without having to install another window manager?
[14:06] <aicasn> robford1: still need a compistor for xfce?
[14:07] <zequence> robford1: I think XFCE has its own compositor, actually
[14:07] <aicasn> it does, but it sucks
[14:08] <aicasn> https://github.com/chjj/compton    or use apt-get
[14:08] <aicasn> then steal a good config file via google and you're good to go
[14:09] <aicasn> there are several guides. only takes maybe 10 mins to set up
[14:10] <robford1> Yeah the video tear is a nightmare
[14:11] <robford1> i usually put Kwin on top of it but it impacts load times and takes more resource
[14:11] <robford1> Wondered if there was a light alternative
[14:11] <robford1> Thanks aicasn
[14:11] <robford1> I'll have a look at that :D
[14:11] <aicasn> yw
[14:12] <aicasn> on all the machines i tested, this was _the_ fix for tearing in xfce/lxde
[14:13] <robford1> Being a bit of a noob
[14:13] <robford1> Will this do it? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2144468
[14:14] <robford1> Haha, actually that looks complicated
[14:15] <aicasn> http://duncanlock.net/blog/2013/06/07/how-to-switch-to-compton-for-beautiful-tear-free-compositing-in-xfce/
[14:15] <aicasn> ^^ this one's better
[14:15] <robford1> Ahhhh great stuff!!! Thankya!
[14:15] <Siya> zequence: I reverted the autospawn, rebooted and I can see it running (ps ax | grep pulse)
[14:16] <Siya> But When I fire up Qjackctl and press start
[14:16] <Siya> it hangs and comes back with dbus errors
[14:17] <aicasn> robford1: the instructions are good, but the config file on that posting will not give you the best performance
[14:17] <aicasn> robford1:  here's my config for reference; http://pastebin.ca/2476070
[14:18] <robford1> Much appreciated
[14:18] <Siya> zequence: "pulseaudio --start" worked
[14:19] <Siya> never had to manually do that before though...
[14:20] <zequence> Siya: jack1 or jack2?
[14:20] <zequence> jack1 is not able to grab the device from pulseaudio
[14:20] <zequence> else, with jackd2, it should just work
[14:21] <Siya> 13.10 so I think it's jack2
[14:21] <zequence> jackd2 is always default
[14:21] <zequence> But, you can always install jackd1
[14:22] <zequence> if you built any software yourself, and installed jack deps, you might have installed jack1
[14:22] <zequence> Siya: What happens if you do: ps -eo | grep jack
[14:22] <zequence> sorry: ps -eo comm | grep jack
[14:23] <zequence> or jackd -V
[14:23] <Siya> after a reboot w/o starting anything but terminal: nothing
[14:24] <Siya> jackdmp 1.9.10
[14:24] <zequence> try the last command: jackd -V
[14:24] <zequence> ok, so it's jackd2
[14:24] <zequence> do this in the terminal: jackd -d alsa
[14:24] <Siya> got it working
[14:24] <zequence> ok, so jack works
[14:24] <Siya> I renamed .config/pulse
[14:25] <Siya> not it's back to 'normal' after a reboot
[14:25] <Siya> now to not have pulseaudio load connections in jack
[14:25] <zequence> sudo apt-get remove pulseaudio-module-jack
[14:25] <zequence> then, restart pulseaudio: pulseaudio -k
[14:27] <Siya> dependency on ubuntustudio-audio :(
[14:27] <Siya> Isn't it easier to disable the link
[14:33] <zequence> Siya: ubuntustudio-audio is just a meta package
[14:33] <zequence> it's safe to remove it
[14:33] <Siya> kthnx
[14:35] <Siya> editing /etc/pulse/default.pa also works
[14:35] <Siya> uncommented the section
[14:35] <Siya> commented the section about module-jackdbus-detect
[14:38] <zequence> yes, that works too
[15:58] <Siya> any pointers on this? org.freedesktop.dbus.error.serviceunknown the name org.freedesktop.hal
[15:58] <Siya> don't get that error on my 12.04 ubuntu machine but I do on a new install of u-studuo 13.10
[15:59] <holstein> Siya: where are you seeing what exactly?
[16:04] <Siya> holstein: python
[16:04] <holstein> Siya: what *exactly* are you doing? and where is that message?
[16:04] <Siya> trying to find a device by capability
[16:05] <holstein> Siya: pretend i dont do what you are do with python.. and i dont know about your devices.. what are you doing? and where is that error?
[16:05] <holstein> Siya: i see that error online in reference to PPA's.. do you have any ppa's added?
[16:05] <Siya> I'm trying to query hal using python
[16:06] <Siya> nope, plain ubuntu studio
[16:06] <holstein> Siya: looks to me like you need a programming channel
[16:06] <Siya> ah, I may well have in my other machine...
[16:06] <Siya> kthnx
[16:06] <holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/1217757 is a bug i found referencing the error
[16:11] <Siya> holstein: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Halsectomy
[16:11] <Siya> HAL was depricated
[16:11]  * Siya facepalms
[16:11] <Siya> that's what I get for developing on 12.04 and running on 13.10
[16:15] <holstein> Siya: sorry.. i was assuming you had changed that.. there's lots of changes to the plumbing going on
[20:19] <studio-user942> hello
[20:19] <AnGeLiNo> i'm installing Ubuntu Studio!
[20:19] <cannot_read> hi, i am new to ubuntu studio., just now i opened the settings manager and changed the fonts
[20:19] <cannot_read> and now I can't read what is wat
[20:20] <cannot_read> any way to reset this?
[20:20] <cannot_read> i am typing with my instinct., soo. y.. help please T_T
[20:20] <holstein> cannot_read: those settings are in the user config.. you can remove the config for those settings
[20:21] <cannot_read> how do i type the command? i could not open the settings manager for some reason also.
[20:21] <cannot_read> it opens and then closes right away
[20:21] <holstein> type what command?
[20:21] <cannot_read> config removal
[20:21] <holstein> anyways.. you can try removing ~/.config/xfce4/ or whatever you find for the fonts in particular
[20:22] <cannot_read> i am litterally seeing blocks as i type.
[20:22] <cannot_read> same for the a other fonts
[20:22] <cannot_read> except the webpaegs
[20:22] <holstein> cannot_read: ok.  you can create another user account.. you can do this in the terminal
[20:22] <holstein> you can do it from a live CD
[20:23] <cannot_read> so if i log n from the guest account and delete the admin account, it will do thie job, you mean?
[20:24] <holstein> cannot_read: the guest account likely wont have permission.. but you can use the temrinal to sudo.. or tty
[20:24] <holstein> !tty
[20:25] <holstein> cannot_read: or a live CD.. or many other ways to remove the config that you have created that is causing the unwanted text size
[20:26] <zequence> cannot_read: Do you have anything important in the home folder right now?
[20:27] <cannot_read> no
[20:27] <holstein> you can blow out all of .config
[20:27] <holstein> or, just rename it
[20:27] <zequence> cannot_read: The command is: rm -R ~/.config
[20:28] <zequence> cannot_read: Login to a tty first. Ctrl+Alt+F1
[20:28] <zequence> username, then password
[20:28] <zequence> I hope you know your username. It's not the same as the full account name
[20:28] <zequence> If you don't know it, you need to reboot into recovery mode. Hold down shift while booting
[20:57] <Imote> Hello all, I've a question :
[20:58] <Imote> I want to know : I've a laptop with a 64 bit CPU (2 core, 4 threads) with only 1 Gb of RAM
[20:58] <Imote> What is the best, 64 or 32 linux ? Thanks
[21:00] <zequence> Imote: with 1GB RAM, 32bit
[21:00] <zequence> Imote: I would install Lubuntu, and add Ubuntu Studio packages
[21:02] <Imote> Zequence: I'm not shure I correctly understand your sentence (remember I'm french ;)). You propose to me to do this or you want do this ?
[21:03] <zequence> Imote: If I were you, I would install Lubuntu, and then add ubuntustudio packages
[21:03] <zequence> Lubuntu 32bit
[21:03] <zequence> Imote: But, if you can add more RAM, that would be the best
[21:04] <zequence> 2GB minimum, I would say. For 64bit, 4GB is not a bad idea
[21:07] <Imote> Zequence: I'm actuelly on linux Mint 32 KDE and it work perfectly ; MATE and Ubuntu Studio (XFCE so) too. No lag, no problem it's perfect :) A distro like Lubuntu is not necessary :)
[21:07] <Imote> Zequence: I was just be shure if a 64 linux can be better
[21:07] <zequence> Imote: 64bit will require a bit more RAM
[21:08] <zequence> IGB works for a lot of things, but not for everything
[21:09] <Imote> Zequence: Yes it's true. With IRC chat and chromium and KDE I actually use 480 Mb
[21:09] <Imote> On this laptop I just go in the web and develop a little bit so it's really perfect :D :D KDE is not too big
[21:10]  * Unit193 has Xfce on 1G, finds it lacking...
[21:11] <Unit193> zequence: Not to single you out, but oh well.  Do you do much audio processing of talks?  I'm interested in getting them to sound better, but lack ideas for it.
[21:35] <em> when jack is running then regular apps such as "play foo.wav"  don't work, they freeze.  But when jack is not running then music apps such as ardour don't work.  there must be a solution to this problem.  Ive read that there is a plugin that enables jack to service alsa apps, but how do I install it and will it work for pulseaudio?
[21:38] <em> ive been reading my way through mountains of docs, but have not found the answer yet, a few hints would be really appreciated.
[21:45] <zequence> em: pulseaudio-module-jack
[21:45] <zequence> install it, restart pulseaudio
[21:45] <zequence> also, make sure to install jackd2 not jackd1
[21:46] <zequence> then, start jack. In pulseaudio controls set output to jack
[21:46] <zequence> all desktop audio will be routed to jack
[21:47] <zequence> to restart pulseaudio, just kill it: pulseaudio -k
[21:52] <wachin> Hi to all UbuntuStudio Developers & Users
[21:54] <zequence> em: Also..
[21:54] <zequence> !proaudio
[21:54] <zequence> wachin: Hi
[21:57] <wachin> zequence  I question if anyone solved the problem with the volume control UbuntuStudio 13.10 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83295394/UbuntuStudio/01%20Volume%20control%20not%20working%20UbuntuStudio%2013.10.png
[21:58] <zequence> Is there a bug report?
[21:59] <zequence> And the bug is not only in Ubuntu Studio. I suppose it is at least affecting anything that has XFCE
[21:59] <em> zequence:  COOL! THANKS!
[22:01] <wachin> Ok
[22:01] <em> dont know the bug number but the broken volume control is in the release notes,  am really surprised that an update has not fixed it by now
[22:08] <wachin> I am happy with UbuntuStudio 13.10, more than UbuntuStudio 12.04, UbuntuStudio 13.04
[22:09] <em> wachin:  I figured out a kludighis good enough work-around for the broken audio control.  Add to Panel a Launcher  and then add to the launcher the PulseAudio Volume Control
[22:10] <wachin> the fault with the volume control is somewhat smaller, are the best features that have
[22:14] <wachin> yes, I thinks somthing like, with xfce4-goodies with addon pulseaudio volume https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83295394/UbuntuStudio/02%20Volume%20control%20not%20working%20US%2013.10%2C%20I%20think%20replace%20with%20volume%20pulseaudio%20addon.png
[22:18] <wachin> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83295394/UbuntuStudio/03%20Volume%20control%20not%20working%20US%2013.10%2C%20I%20think%20replace%20with%20volume%20pulseaudio%20addon.png
[22:19] <em> PulseAudio Volume Control is different from the mixer control, sorry but I only know english, so can't tell you what the name would be.  however the mixer control is probably good enough.
[22:19] <wachin> oh
[22:21] <em> the thing about getting rid of the broken speaker icon is that it actually gets painted on the notifier pane which is shared with the network status and possibly other items.    Im sure there is a way but it would require a lot of digging to find it, so I just decided to ignore it.  besides, someday an update will probably fix it.  hopefully soon.
[22:22] <wachin> Yes here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83295394/UbuntuStudio/04%20Volume%20control%20not%20working%20US%2013.10%2C%20create%20volume%20pulseaudio%20launcher.png
[22:23] <wachin> Ok, now I go, God Bless to all
[22:23] <wachin> See you later
[22:23] <em> you are welcome


[00:30] <flocculant> wxl: you about?
[00:31] <flocculant> cos - can you try suspend or lock with yak on looby lou please
[00:32] <flocculant> done some smoketests on other than Xubunt
[00:32] <flocculant> seems to fail all around
[00:32] <flocculant> and given that Final Beta in less than a week - I'm at Refuse Release here
[02:27] <flocculant> wxl: do you use kvm/qemu/virt manager?
[02:28] <flocculant> seems since last update(s) I have to root filemanger and then use qemu etc
[02:29] <flocculant> previously could start virt-manager and force sudo password on it
[02:29] <flocculant> pitti: ^^
[02:29] <flocculant> regression perhaps


[10:48] <voltagex> hi, I'm trying to use Ubuntu on the Nexus 7 but the touchscreen seems to be miscalibrated - I can't launch any apps as my touches don't register
[12:09] <fmoreau> hi. could anybody share a version of 'make_ext4fs' which supports device nodes ? thanks in advance
[12:13] <lilstevie> fmoreau, huh?
[12:16] <kulve> lilstevie: make_ext4fs doesn't seem to understand anything under /dev when creating a file system image
[12:16] <kulve> fmoreau: I also noticed that it might make all files owned by root (at least when run with sudo).
[12:16] <lilstevie> kulve, okay... why would you want to do that anyway
[12:16] <fmoreau> kulve: that's correct at least with the version I'm using
[12:17] <fmoreau> lilstevie: for /lib/udev/devices directory
[12:18] <fmoreau> kulve: I think latest version of make_ext4fs support device nodes. I can see this from the source code I downloaded
[12:19] <lilstevie> but why would you need that
[12:20] <fmoreau> lilstevie: as said some directories in my rootfs has device nodes, so I need to put them in my rootfs.img
[12:21] <fmoreau> /lib/udev/devices is an example
[12:21] <lilstevie> but why?
[12:21] <lilstevie> AFAIK all the required device nodes should be created by udev
[12:21] <fmoreau> all devs are created by udev statically in that dir
[12:22] <fmoreau> because the kernel doesn't report any events for them
[12:22] <lilstevie> uh
[12:23] <lilstevie> are you sure?
[12:25] <fmoreau> almost ;)
[12:26] <fmoreau> for a description of this directory: http://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/html/openSUSE/opensuse-reference/cha.udev.html#sec.udev.devdir
[12:26] <lilstevie> fmoreau, no, I mean that it is even used on the nexus 7
[12:26] <lilstevie> I know what it is for
[12:27] <fmoreau> well, until you use one of the static devs, then you shouldn't have any issues I guess
[12:28] <fmoreau> but since it's cleaner to put this directory in my rootfs...
[12:29] <lilstevie> that still should not need dev node support any more than the empty directory for /dev does
[12:30] <fmoreau> lilstevie: I agree for /dev/ but I'd like not make an image of my rootfs without the need to hack it.
[12:31] <fmoreau> does your version of make_ext4fs support dev nodes ?
[12:33] <fmoreau> bbl
[15:13] <infinity> robclark: Say, when you get a chance, want to make dri2test work with libnouveau2 on raring?
[19:21] <nikis> Yow, that was scary.
[19:21] <nikis> So my Nexus 7 decided not to boot up anymore, and show static lines going through the screen.
[19:21] <nikis> I thought it was done for.
[19:21] <nikis> Managed to fix it though :)


[05:11] <mdz> CC meeting?
[05:11] <Kamion> here
[05:12] <Kamion> um, had forgotten about it
[05:12] <Kamion> we don't seem to have any agenda items
[05:12] <mdz> anything on the agenda?
[05:12] <Kamion> nothing
[05:12] <sabdfl> nothing that i saw
[05:12] <mdz> agenda on the wiki seems to be empty
[05:12] <sabdfl> sorry for being late
[05:12] <sabdfl> i checked this morning and it was just old stuff
[05:12] <Kamion> do we have AOB?
[05:12] <sabdfl> so made it blank
[05:13] <sabdfl> AOB?
[05:13] <Kamion> any other business (i.e. off-agenda)
[05:13] <sabdfl> not from me
[05:13] <mdz> yes
[05:13] <mdz> I'd like to talk about the maintainer process
[05:13] <sabdfl> hmm... maybe conference invitations to community members
[05:13] <mdz> lack thereof, at the moment
[05:14] <mdz> is someone expected to be working on community processes? jdub?
[05:14] <sabdfl> mdz: do we have a framework for maintainers whohave been appointed?
[05:14] <sabdfl> i think mako
[05:14] <sabdfl> he sms'd me to say his net was busted
[05:14] <sabdfl> he's trying to make another plan
[05:14] <mdz> oh
[05:15] <sabdfl> i would really like to get a community team going
[05:15] <sabdfl> in other words have a few maintainers who are not Canonical folk
[05:15] <mdz> we have a keyring for the archive, and a queue of folks who want to be considered
[05:15] <sabdfl> with full upload capability
[05:15] <mdz> the rest is documentation and procedures
[05:16] <mdz> when mako and I talked about this last, we were on the same page as to how it should work
[05:16] <sabdfl> ok
[05:17] <sabdfl> ah, the clocks have gone back, that's why my alarm didn't go
[05:17] <mdz> I also think it would be a good idea for someone on the community team to work with the doc team on a "how to get involved" document
[05:18] <mdz> the categories I have seen so far are "I have a suggestion for improving Ubuntu", "I have a problem with Ubuntu" and "I want to become an Ubuntu developer"
[05:18] <mdz> I wrote a document for the "I have a problem" case which walks through support and bug reporting basics
[05:18] <sabdfl> the MaintainerCandidates page has a few people
[05:18] <mako2> there is already a participate document
[05:19] <mdz> but i think it would be nice to have a very high-level document about how individuals can relate to the Ubuntu community
[05:19] <mako2> mdz: do you think it should be built on top of that?
[05:19] <sabdfl> are there any there who have strong credentials from existing open source work that would allow us to approve them immediately?
[05:19] <Kamion> also "when you *don't* need to be an Ubuntu developer in order to get your problem fixed"
[05:19] <mdz> mako2: possibly, I'm waiting for plone to give it to me so I can see
[05:19] <Kamion> thinking of the people who want to join just in order to get some theme added or whatever
[05:19] <sabdfl> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/participate/document_view
[05:20] <sabdfl> mako2: perhaps that just needs some more specifics
[05:20] <sabdfl> "become a maintainer" doesn't tell you where to start
[05:20] <sabdfl> just needs a link to the relevant process
[05:20] <mako2> right
[05:20] <Kamion> (is there any way we can get rid of those daft "/document_view" bits on the end of all the wiki URLs? the URLs work fine without them)
[05:20] <mdz> once the process is documented :-)
[05:20] <mdz> Kamion++
[05:21] <sabdfl> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MaintainerCandidates
[05:21] <sabdfl> is there anyone on there that we would feel comfortable approving right away?
[05:21] <mdz> mako2: I'm thinking that it should have some very simple bullet points which link to more detailed documents
[05:21] <mdz> mako2: each aimed at a use case which already exists
[05:22] <mdz> so that a user who comes to the page who already knows what they want, can find the relevant interface
[05:22] <Kamion> Matthias Urlichs is a competent Debian guy, IIRC
[05:22] <mako2> mdz: i'm happy to help with that
[05:22] <sabdfl> i would be happy to approve some of the guys who have made great doc contributions already
[05:22] <mako2> Kamion: yes, we've been chatting a little bit offlist as wel
[05:22] <Kamion> Thibaut VARENE is the ia64 guy and should be straightforward to approve
[05:22] <mdz> his name is familiar, but I can't vouch personally
[05:22] <sabdfl> as long as they agree just to work on package documentation
[05:23] <daniels> lamont can vouch for thibaut, IIRC
[05:23] <mako2> Kamion: he maintains some non-trivial python packages
[05:23] <mako2> python-docutils (RST)
[05:23] <mdz> elmo: do we have a public upload queue?
[05:23] <mako2> i can also vouch for thibaut
[05:23] <mako2> i was his AM in Debian so i've already gone through NM with him once
[05:23] <Kamion> oh, he's the gnutls/gcrypt maintainer
[05:23] <elmo> mdz: no - we're waiting on zope 3's ftpd getting fixed - I've just pinged SteveA about it
[05:23] <Kamion> $ grep-available -nsPackage 'Matthias Urlichs' | wc -l
[05:23] <Kamion> 80
[05:24] <sabdfl> gosh
[05:24] <sabdfl> that would be a yes then
[05:24] <elmo> yeah, smurf's competent IMO
[05:24] <Kamion> (quantity not implying quality or anything, but :-))
[05:25] <sabdfl> Kamion: why do I always find myself agreeing with you when you point out that sort of thing?
[05:25] <Kamion> I'm just such an agreeable guy
[05:25] <sabdfl> erm. but i'm not.
[05:25] <mdz> because of his sneaky tendency to be correct
[05:25] <mako2> yeah, but he also maintains some touch ones
[05:25] <sabdfl> ah. yes, that
[05:25] <mako2> i've been working with him this week on preparing the new upstream release of python-docutils
[05:25] <sabdfl> ok, let's take these one at a time, maybe that would be better
[05:25] <sabdfl> we still need a proper process for guys we don't know already
[05:26] <sabdfl> mako2, can we leave the process documentation in your hands, deliverable for the next cc meeting?
[05:26] <mdz> yes
[05:26] <mako2> yes
[05:26] <sabdfl> and mdz, can we handle both techboard and cc approvals today, do you have your tech board handy?
[05:27] <mako2> mdz: help me outline and check it,eh?
[05:27] <mdz> hm, I'll see
[05:27] <mdz> mako2: definitely
[05:27] <sabdfl> ok: thibaut varene, opinions?
[05:28] <mako2> i was his am in debian
[05:28] <sabdfl> already discussed?
[05:28] <mdz> (prodded Keybuk)
[05:28] <mako2> i passed him there with glowing recommendations and i would do it again here :)
[05:28] <mdz> sabdfl: mako and lamont both say good things, I've chatted with him and found him sane
[05:28] <sabdfl> how do we want to do this, require all cc members to say aye or nay?
[05:28] <Kamion> he's been sane when I've talked to him too; thibaut ack
[05:29] <sabdfl> ok, thibaut is in
[05:29] <Keybuk> evening
[05:29] <mdz> cheers
[05:29] <sabdfl> from a cc perspective, mdz, you make the call for tech board
[05:29] <sabdfl> hiya scott
[05:29] <sabdfl> sivan green
[05:29] <sabdfl> he's been very "present"
[05:29] <Kamion> sabdfl: I think requiring CC unanimity would be good until we have a clearer procedure
[05:29] <sabdfl> lot's of enthusiasm on the doc front
[05:30] <mako2> sivan has been working mostly on doc stuff up until now but is interested in working with a mentor towards other types of stuff
[05:30] <sabdfl> not much experience i don't think
[05:30] <sabdfl> a candidate for the full process?
[05:30] <pitti> I talk with him very often; he seems eager, but did not finish much up to now
[05:30] <mako2> he's been in contact with me directly several times a week about a number of things
[05:30] <mdz> mako and I talked a bit, and I think the full process can very nearly be condensed to a single bullet point
[05:30] <mdz> the key is that we can trust them to know their own limits
[05:30] <mako2> i gather that sivan would be happy with the fully process
[05:30] <mako2> right
[05:31] <pitti> I think so, too
[05:31] <sabdfl> mdz: can you turn that into something a little less existential?
[05:31] <mdz> if we can be confident that someone will ask before entering unknown waters
[05:31] <pitti> but he should finish at least a small coding project before he starts the full process, right?
[05:31] <Kamion> sivan definitely isn't an experienced developer; I'd be happy for him to work with a mentor to bring him up to speed, but I also think he is inclined to ask people rather than storm ahead
[05:31] <mdz> and not touch things that they aren't entirely confident about
[05:31] <sabdfl> ok
[05:31] <Keybuk> I've certainly not got any objections, have seen him around and he seems willing to help
[05:31] <mako2> sabdfl: so we pass him saying "you are a doc guy until we prove you can safely work beyon that. ubuntu is not the place to learn and experiment and make beginners mistakes"
[05:31] <pitti> Kamion: for my taste he even asks too much
[05:32] <Kamion> pitti: I wasn't going to say that :-)
[05:32] <mdz> he's definitely enthusiastic; I can't say I know a thing about his technical interests or skills
[05:32] <sabdfl> mako2: i'm hesitant to pass him on the basis of enthusiasm alone
[05:32] <Kamion> pitti: (yes, it can be annoying; it's better than the other way round though)
[05:32] <pitti> Kamion: but I do, he asks me all the time on every day
[05:32] <pitti> Kamion: I agree
[05:32] <Kamion> oh, he has done some security work with you hasn't he?
[05:32] <pitti> As a matter of fact I already am a kind of mentor for him
[05:32] <Kamion> pitti: how much has he actually done on the security front?
[05:32] <sabdfl> without wanting to rehash the previous process discussion, we did say that we would expect candidates to collect a list of real contributions made
[05:32] <mdz> Kamion: he helped with the Warty security review
[05:33] <mdz> research
[05:33] <pitti> Kamion: so far he helped with rewieving the 2002 DSAs, but nothing else (that I know of)
[05:33] <mako2> pitti: he's done documentation work
[05:33] <pitti> mako2: sure, but I cannot evaluate that
[05:33] <Kamion> has the doc work he's done been reviewed?
[05:33] <mdz> doesn't the maintainercandidates page ask them to submit a resume?
[05:33] <mako2> i think sabdfl is correct.. lets have sivan work with pitti, myself, and whoever else
[05:33] <mako2> Kamion: no, but i can review the doc work for hte next meeting
[05:33] <pitti> he often asks me to assign some taks to him, but so far he did not finish anything
[05:33] <mdz> he did: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SivanGreen
[05:34] <sabdfl> we should only fast-track people who we really know and have no doubt about
[05:34] <pitti> I would not want to fast-track him
[05:34] <mdz> sabdfl: agreed
[05:34] <sabdfl> ok
[05:34] <pitti> I will happily bring him through some sort of NM process
[05:34] <sabdfl> if it takes him two or three months, it's worth it for him and for us
[05:34] <mako2> pitti: that would be great :)
[05:34] <pitti> he seems eager to do the process, though
[05:34] <pitti> mako2: I have some experience as AM,
[05:35] <mako2> pitti: well, this will be a little different but we can discuss that outside of the meeting :)
[05:35] <pitti> mako2: but as I understood, the process should be shorter
[05:35] <pitti> mako2: ack
[05:35] <sabdfl> pitti: just long enough for you to be confident in him, and in your relationship with him
[05:35] <mako2> pitti: i'd like to do a better job of documenting the process so we work together to sort do a self-documentating process :)
[05:35] <pitti> sabdfl: I can check his technical skills (and help him with that), but not necessarily the doc stuff
[05:35] <sabdfl> pitti: that's ok
[05:36] <mako2> i can overview the doc stuff.. i follow their process/work
[05:36] <pitti> sabdfl: okay, I'll do it
[05:36] <sabdfl> he should be able to point to a list of doc contributions if that's his pitch
[05:36] <sabdfl> ok, next
[05:36] <pitti> sabdfl: but I will give him some real-world tasks rather than the theoretical Debian NM quesion
[05:36] <pitti> sabdfl: s/quesion/questions/
[05:36] <sabdfl> mattias uhrlichs, smurf
[05:36] <Kamion> sabdfl: aye
[05:36] <sabdfl> pitti: fine
[05:36] <sabdfl> Kamion: thanks
[05:36] <sabdfl> elmo?
[05:37] <mdz> perhaps it is sufficient to get N confirms, rather than tally votes from everyone?
[05:37] <elmo> sabdfl: for smurf?  aye
[05:37] <mako2> i already nodded earlier
[05:37] <sabdfl> ok
[05:38] <sabdfl> smurf is approved from cc
[05:38] <mako2> mdz: only 4 people :)
[05:39] <sabdfl> oliver grawert?
[05:39] <Kamion> bit of a lack of technical resume there
[05:40] <mdz> he's been active on -devel
[05:40] <mako2> mdz: what is his nick?
[05:40] <sabdfl> not known enough for me to like fast-tracking
[05:40] <mdz> mako2: not sure, I meant the mailing list
[05:40] <daniels> i believe his nick is ogra
[05:40] <mdz> ah, he's active on #ubuntu as well, then
[05:41] <mako2> yeah, i've seen his messages but i'm with sabdfl here
[05:41] <mdz> sabdfl: agreed
[05:41] <sabdfl> ok, full process
[05:41] <sabdfl> alexander poslavsky has been excellent on the wiki
[05:42] <mdz> Alexander Poslavsky is a doc team guy, very active
[05:42] <sabdfl> perhaps a doc candidate?
[05:42] <Kamion> what's our general rule on doc team <=> maintainership?
[05:42] <mdz> what does that mean?
[05:43] <sabdfl> Kamion: i think doc team members should have full commit capability
[05:43] <Kamion> mdz: what sabdfl just said. :-)
[05:43] <Kamion> sabdfl: ok
[05:43] <sabdfl> i think we said maintainers would also be able to push out a release
[05:44] <Kamion> plovs is fine with me, I think he's earned his stripes up to now
[05:44] <sabdfl> but in the absence of HCT, would we prefer to err on the side of allowing or disallowing uploads by doc team members?
[05:44] <mdz> sabdfl: commits to the package archive?
[05:44] <mdz> sabdfl: disallowing
[05:44] <sabdfl> i'd fall on the other side :-)
[05:44] <mdz> most of them have neither interest in packaging, nor a GPG key
[05:44] <fabbione> i agree with mdz
[05:44] <sabdfl> perhaps we could have a tighter policy post-freeze?
[05:44] <sabdfl> empowering is better, if someone trips up pre-freeze it's unlikely to be a disaster
[05:44] <mako2> i'd prefer to not have two classes of maintainers
[05:45] <sabdfl> mako2: we did already agree that though
[05:45] <sabdfl> contributor - sends patches
[05:45] <sabdfl> committer - can commit to the arch branches
[05:45] <mako2> right
[05:45] <sabdfl> maintainer - can trigger the release
[05:45] <mako2> i was taking about maintainers
[05:46] <sabdfl> in the absence of the arch infrastructure i'd prefer to use social structures to enforce "doc only" maintainership
[05:46] <sabdfl> if someone uploads something thats out of line, that's a social issue
[05:46] <sabdfl> which we can quickly sort out
[05:46] <mdz> there are more issues apart from uploading things out of line
[05:46] <mako2> it's hard enough to get people to do the not-so-sexy documentation thing.. full fledged maintainership, whatever that is
[05:46] <mako2> sound good to me
[05:46] <mdz> a new maintainer means a new key in the keyring, which needs to be properly signed and protected
[05:47] <sabdfl> right, so we have to have confidence in the person's gpg security knowledge
[05:47] <mdz> do the doc guys even want that responsibility?
[05:47] <mako2> mdz: i guess we should ask
[05:47] <sabdfl> what's the worst case?
[05:47] <mdz> worst case is http://www.google.com/?q=secring.gpg
[05:48] <elmo> *giggle*
[05:48] <fabbione> that reminds me of... thom?
[05:48] <fabbione> ;)
[05:48] <mdz> er, http://www.google.com/search?q=secring.gpg
[05:49] <sabdfl> why would a maintainer be able to change the keyring?
[05:49] <elmo> sabdfl: they can't - but if their key is insecure, then our packages are vulnerable
[05:49] <mako2> sabdfl: no, he's afraid they'll put their keyring somewhere whehere peopl can google it and download it
[05:50] <mdz> mako2: well, I said that's the worst case :-)
[05:50] <Kamion> that's an outside risk, but it's an example of general key management incompetence, which in its general form is common
[05:50] <elmo> http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl%3Asecring.gpg
[05:50] <mdz> elmo: yeah, that one
[05:51] <mdz> whoever justin pryzby is, we wouldn't want his key in our keyring
[05:51] <mako2> ok, so the danger is not that we can't trust the nm candidates, it's our job to make sure we can
[05:52] <mako2> the danger is that we can't trust everyone who has their key :)
[05:52] <Keybuk> yeah, anyone who manages to expose a private key like that should be shot
[05:52] <mdz> mako2: the question is whether we need to force people through that process in order to be an official documentation person
[05:52] <sabdfl> i think it's reasonable to establish gpg practice understanding
[05:52] <sabdfl> if that's a key requirement
[05:53] <mdz> that is definitely a key requirement; it's the basis for our trust
[05:53] <mako2> i think a keyring of maintainers is a Good Thing for reasons other than uploading packages
[05:53] <mako2> voting, etc
[05:54] <elmo> yeah, but we should probably have a separate keyring for uploaders
[05:54] <sabdfl> the doc guys will need to be briefed and tested
[05:54] <mako2> the documentation are not writing advertisemennet copy.. they're writing technical documentation.. they should be able to figure out how to use gpg and get some key safety :)
[05:54] <sabdfl> elmo: why have a separate keyring?
[05:54] <daniels> elmo: one for voters/et al, one for people who can upload
[05:54] <daniels> er
[05:54] <daniels> sabdfl: ^^
[05:54] <daniels> sabdfl: so not everyone can upload libc6
[05:55] <mdz> do we actually have any process in mind where we would hold a vote of the entire project?
[05:55] <sabdfl> *cough* voting *cough*
[05:55] <Kamion> mdz: cc/tb reelection
[05:55] <sabdfl> confirmation
[05:55] <mdz> Kamion: those are appointed positions, no?
[05:55] <elmo> sabdfl: usual reasons: damage limitation, layered security, etc. - if the doc guys don't actually need their keyring, except once every two years or vote or something, they're much less likely to apply as-good-as-we-would-like security practices to their GPG key
[05:55] <sabdfl> Kamion is (again) correct
[05:55] <mako2> call it consensus or just identifying yourself :)
[05:56] <sabdfl> elmo: but the doc guys are definitely going to be committing to the codebase, and that will require gpg keys
[05:56] <sabdfl> once we have bazaar flying, with hct
[05:56] <Kamion> mdz: hm, there was talk of having them confirmed by plebiscite of maintainers to start with
[05:57] <sabdfl> yes, nominated y me, confirmed by a plebiscite (!)
[05:57] <elmo> sabdfl: sure - but until we get there, I think we need separate keys.  and not all derivatives will be using upload-via-arch in any event, so we're going to have to deal with managing multiple "upload" keyrings anyways from an archive POV
[05:57] <sabdfl> ok
[05:57] <Kamion> sabdfl: (plebiscite is such a good word I just had to use it)
[05:57] <sabdfl> but the question is whether we want to allow a doc person to upload packages
[05:58] <elmo> sabdfl: <fascist-that-I-am>no.  if they upload packages, they're by definition not a doc person</>
[05:58] <mdz> if they meet the criteria, sure
[05:58] <mako> what about documentation packages? :)
[05:58] <sabdfl> i think someone who understands gpg, and who has agreed not to touch code, should be allowed to do so
[05:59] <mdz> someone who understands gpg, and knows their limits
[05:59] <sabdfl> if they break the social agreement, we have a problem that can be solved simply
[05:59] <sabdfl> perhaps we can switch modes post-freeze
[05:59] <sabdfl> to minimise the risk of an accidental stuffup
[05:59] <sabdfl> so the policy is "looser till freeze"
[06:00] <sabdfl> all of this is just till we get bazaar / hct
[06:00] <mdz> it is?
[06:00] <mdz> it seems like we have the same issues with baz/hct
[06:01] <sabdfl> but we can distinguish between commit and upload
[06:01] <sabdfl> whereas now we cant
[06:01] <mdz> but without someone reviewing the changes, they're pretty much equivalent
[06:01] <sabdfl> the additional review is a disincentive to contribution
[06:01] <sabdfl> being able to upload is a big motivator
[06:01] <sabdfl> instant gratification
[06:02] <mdz> I'm not really worried about folks who are comfortable working with gpg having commit access to write docs
[06:02] <sabdfl> i really think we should acknowledge the doc team's contribution with maintainer status
[06:02] <mdz> what I object to is making their official status contingent on gpg usage
[06:02] <mdz> they should at least be able to decline that piece, and still be officially recognized
[06:02] <sabdfl> so they can still vote
[06:02] <sabdfl> but not have to deal with gpg
[06:02] <sabdfl> that's fine by me
[06:03] <sabdfl> it's at their option
[06:03] <sabdfl> elmo, can you live with this?
[06:03] <sabdfl> separate keyring for voting, contains additional keys of maintainers who choose not to upload
[06:03] <mdz> there's no need to require gpg for voting, since they should be able to do it by logging into the website or similar
[06:03] <sabdfl> also true
[06:04] <elmo> sabdfl: yeah, if we can discourage gpg key use when it's not necessary, I'm all for it
[06:04] <mdz> what it sounds like we're moving toward is an official contributor status
[06:04] <mdz> that's someone who can't commit, but participates, and they have a voice
[06:04] <sabdfl> except that the "can't commit" is at their option, thus far
[06:04] <mdz> in oxford, we said that the contributor (with baz/hct) could be anyone
[06:05] <mdz> that it didn't require official status
[06:05] <sabdfl> only because bazaar will allow branching so easily
[06:05] <mdz> right
[06:05] <mdz> but a contributor could be someone with a vote
[06:05] <sabdfl> ok, this is a new idea
[06:05] <sabdfl> but a nice one
[06:05] <mdz> distinguishing them from the rest of the planet, community-wise
[06:06] <sabdfl> particularly for doc team, and community support people
[06:06] <sabdfl> guys who make a huge contribution
[06:06] <sabdfl> and in due course we'll have industrial karma to give clear indications of who gets that voice
[06:07] <mako> i still am not too hot on the idea of having contributors and maintainers be different
[06:07] <mako> i think it sets up a hierarchy with the doc people apparently being lower
[06:07] <mako> it doesn't bother me if they haev a gpg key, or not.. it's the political and social distinction that i'm most worried about
[06:08] <mdz> it's a meaningful infrastructural distinction, though
[06:08] <mdz> and reflects the way the community actually works
[06:08] <mdz> that's how we arrived at it in oxford
[06:08] <mako> yes, but we also said at oxford that doc people should be able to be full maintainers :)
[06:08] <mdz> sure, they should be able to be
[06:08] <sabdfl> mako: this is nothing to stop a doc guy from being a maintainer
[06:09] <sabdfl> it's a new idea, afaict
[06:09] <sabdfl> so, to summarise, mdz shout if i have it wrong
[06:09] <sabdfl> we develop the concept of the "voting community"
[06:10] <sabdfl> this includes maintainers and people who are also given a vote because of a significant contribution in some other field
[06:10] <mdz> we already established a hierarchy of contributor -> committer -> maintainer -> ..., with "committer" being the point at which strong authentication is required
[06:10] <sabdfl> maintainership means "can trigger or upload a package release"
[06:11] <sabdfl> committer means "can commit to a package"
[06:11] <sabdfl> mdz: would you see the voters as being all committers then?
[06:11] <sabdfl> i'm not so sure about that
[06:12] <mdz> sabdfl: what I proposed in this meeting was that contributors be able to vote
[06:12] <mdz> which provides an official, voting status which doesn't require strong authentication
[06:12] <sabdfl> the only example we have of voting is confirmation of appointments to tech and community boards
[06:12] <mdz> and gives a useful home for contributors who aren't ready/willing to accept the responsibility of commit access
[06:12] <sabdfl> id like those voters to be limited to substantial contributors
[06:12] <mdz> but who are valued members of the community who should have a voice
[06:13] <sabdfl> i agree "substantial contribution" doesn't only mean code, and uploads
[06:13] <sabdfl> but it is still different from "have sent in a few patches"
[06:13] <mdz> I would think that anyone who makes regular, high-quality contributions would naturally become a committer
[06:14] <sabdfl> thats not what we were discussing though
[06:14] <mdz> so if what we want is for only substantial contributors to be able to vote, I think that would be committers
[06:14] <sabdfl> i was trying to follow up on your thought that "voters" need not equal "maintainers"
[06:14] <sabdfl> i'm not even comfortable with that
[06:15] <sabdfl> because we might ultimately have committers with fairly narrow commit rights
[06:15] <sabdfl> depending on how good we can get hct
[06:15] <sabdfl> we might, for example, give upstream guys all commit rights in the packages that they upstream code lives in
[06:15] <sabdfl> im not sure that should give them a say in who sits on your tech board
[06:16] <sabdfl> vs, say, a doc guy who has put in a lot of work on the wiki and website
[06:16] <mdz> what the website currently says is "a vote amongst the maintainers"
[06:16] <mdz> I guess if that's the sort of thing we will be voting on, then yes, it should be more exclusive
[06:17] <mako> all we need to figure out is how we are going to identify contributions that are meaningful and then recognize those with status. the detail of who can committ where and where seems like it might be a technical detail we don't need to take on fully
[06:17] <sabdfl> that's the only process we have that involves a vote
[06:17] <sabdfl> for the moment, i think the best plan is to make the big contributors maintainers
[06:17] <sabdfl> and have them agree not to touch code
[06:18] <sabdfl> so for the moment it's fairly binary
[06:18] <mdz> and the issue I raised with that is that it places a fairly strong technical burden on them, i.e. key management
[06:18] <sabdfl> (oh, and they can agree not to upload at all)
[06:18] <sabdfl> but they still kep their vote
[06:18] <sabdfl> later on, when we have better tools both for objective review of community participation, and code control, we can tune it
[06:19] <mdz> so the proposed solution to that issue is to allow them to voluntarily decline commit privileges on their way to becoming a maintainer?
[06:19] <sabdfl> if we had doubts, i suppose we could offer maintainership explicitly without upload capability
[06:20] <mako> sivang: hey there
[06:20] <sabdfl> but i would prefer that we simply test gpg knowledge, and if it's ok, let them have the option not to be in the upload keyring
[06:20] <sabdfl> sivang: you'll want to read the logs of this meeting
[06:20] <mako> mdz: that sounds reasonable
[06:20] <mako> sivang: i can bring you up to speed aftewards as well
[06:20] <sivang> sabdfl : so I've heared :)
[06:20] <sabdfl> it's a simple way to get started
[06:21] <pitti> mako, sabdfl: I already told him the short-short version
[06:21] <sabdfl> ok
[06:21] <sabdfl> can i hear back from elmo, mako, kamion on this:
[06:22] <sabdfl>  - we'll allow maintainers not to be in the upload keyring if they don't really need to be
[06:22] <sabdfl>  - we'll approve some non-code contributors as maintainers, so they have a vote where it counts
[06:22] <sabdfl>  - when we have hct / bazaar we can fine tune these
[06:22] <sabdfl> ?
[06:23] <elmo> works for me
[06:23] <mako> that sounds fine
[06:23] <Kamion> ok by me
[06:23] <sivang> mako : thanks
[06:23] <sabdfl> done
[06:24] <sabdfl> on that basis, i think hornbeck and alexander poslavsky and enrico would be candidates for maintainership
[06:25] <sabdfl> anyone want to weigh in on those three?
[06:26] <Kamion> Enrico's a reasonable Debian developer, he might not be limited to just docs
[06:26] <Kamion> but those three are certainly fine AFAIAC
[06:26] <sabdfl> ok
[06:27] <Kamion> Enrico's not on MaintainerCandidates?
[06:27] <mdz> nope
[06:27] <sabdfl> he's the doc team secretary
[06:27] <sabdfl> seems sane to offer him the upload option, and a vote
[06:28] <mako> yeah, absolutely
[06:28] <sabdfl> can we move through the list quite quickly now?
[06:28] <mako> fine with me
[06:28] <Kamion> please
[06:28] <sabdfl> let's just focus on establishing if there are people we know well enough to ack immediately
[06:28] <sabdfl> others can go through the process
[06:29] <sabdfl> saravanan reju?
[06:29] <sabdfl> raju
[06:29] <mako> don't know..
[06:29] <mako> process
[06:29] <sabdfl> ok, full process
[06:29] <sabdfl> john levin
[06:29] <sabdfl> i don't know him
[06:30] <sabdfl> anyone in favour?
[06:30] <mdz> doc team guy
[06:30] <Kamion> I've seen him around, but process I think
[06:30] <mako> i know him from traffic on the doc list and such
[06:30] <sabdfl> ok, full process
[06:30] <sabdfl> martin krafft?
[06:30] <mako> he seems to be active but definitely a doc guy
[06:30] <sabdfl> full process
[06:30] <sabdfl>  Darren Critchley
[06:30] <mako> full process
[06:30] <sabdfl>  David Walker
[06:30] <mdz> talked to him, process
[06:31] <sabdfl> Marco Bonetti
[06:31] <sabdfl> nods what?
[06:31] <mako> that was to the last comment
[06:31] <sabdfl>  Luke Yelavich
[06:31] <mako> marco: i think i've met him but am not familiar with his contributions
[06:31] <Kamion> he's the accessibility guy, Jeff's been talking to him I think?
[06:31] <mako> luke: i don't know luke except a little bit of mailing list ubuntu stff
[06:31] <sabdfl> i don't know luke
[06:31] <Kamion> process, though
[06:31] <sabdfl>  Diego Andrs Asenjo
[06:32] <sabdfl> process?
[06:32] <sabdfl> Christoph Haas
[06:32] <Kamion> Christoph> process, but would expect him to get through quickly
[06:32] <sabdfl> ok
[06:32] <mako> 't know either
[06:32] <mdz> who will have responsibility for notifying anyone who just became a maintainer?
[06:32] <Kamion> he's the mentors.debian.net guy
[06:32] <sabdfl> i'll send them a mail
[06:33] <sabdfl> so let's be clear, i have:
[06:33] <sabdfl> thibault varene
[06:33] <sabdfl> alexander pos
[06:33] <sabdfl> john hornbeck
[06:33] <sabdfl> mathias urlichs
[06:33] <sabdfl> that's it
[06:34] <sabdfl> i'll send an email to -devel
[06:34] <sabdfl> and to them
[06:34] <mdz> you mentioned enrico zini earlier
[06:34] <sabdfl> yes, enrico too, but since he didn't put himself on the page i'll check with him first
[06:34] <mdz> ok
[06:34] <mako> sounds good
[06:34] <sabdfl> ok
[06:34] <sabdfl> are we done on the appointments front?
[06:35] <sabdfl> let's talk about community member sponsorship to the conf
[06:35] <mdz> ok
[06:35] <sabdfl> i think we can sponsor 10 people for travel and board, and 10 for board in each week, separately
[06:36] <sabdfl> so a total of 30 people
[06:36] <sabdfl> 10 get travel and board if they are willing to come for a full week
[06:36] <sabdfl> 20 more get a week of board covered, if they want to get themselves there
[06:37] <sabdfl> we have an internal wiki page, for internal nominations
[06:38] <sabdfl> but i think we should also ask community members who are keen to sign up somewhere
[06:38] <mdz> there is a page in the public wiki for that
[06:38] <mako> mdz: sort of
[06:38] <sabdfl> ok, has a mail gone to the lists inviting people to sign up?
[06:38] <mdz> I believe the announcement of the conference included a bit about that
[06:38] <silbs> yes, an email annoucement went out
[06:39] <sabdfl> ok, let's announce the sponsorship separately
[06:39] <sabdfl> we have already approved quite a few
[06:39] <sabdfl> mako, will you coordinate that email with silbs?
[06:39] <mdz> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2004-November/000913.html
[06:39] <mako> yeah, i sent the mail
[06:40] <mako> sabdfl: yes sure
[06:40] <sabdfl> great
[06:40] <sabdfl> that email didn't say (a) where to sign up and (b) that we have some sponsorship available
[06:40] <mako> sabdfl: where to sign up for sponsorship?
[06:41] <sabdfl> mako: yes
[06:41] <sabdfl> maybe also link to the mail archive from the web site home page conference headline
[06:41] <sabdfl> so people see ont he home page that sponsorship is available
[06:41] <sabdfl> Kamion, elmo, mako: any other business?
[06:42] <mako> nope
[06:42] <elmo> not from me
[06:42] <Kamion> nope
[06:42] <sabdfl> mdz, guests?
[06:43] <sabdfl> ok, take that as a no
[06:43] <silbs> on sponsorship - will nominees and decisions be public?
[06:43] <sabdfl> thanks everybody
[06:43] <sabdfl> i'm easy, i think it would be a good idea to send a mail saying who we were sponsoring
[06:44] <silbs> okay. We need to make sure it is fair - a deadline for signing up so it isn't just a first come, first serve, etc.
[06:44] <silbs> I'll work it with Mako
[06:44] <sabdfl> ok
[06:44] <sabdfl> thanks everybody
[06:44] <sabdfl> workrave time
[06:44] <sabdfl> meeting closed
[10:43] <cenerentola> hi there
[11:14] <cenerentola> hi there


[00:11] <JackFrost> fossfreedom_: Actually wondered what would work for you, so great job.  I was thinking of grabbing it, but I don't know when I'll get to it.
[00:11] <JackFrost> bluesabre: Sweeet!
[08:16] <SwissBot> feed xfce-announce had 8 updates, showing the latest 7
[08:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4ui 4.19.5 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.19.3 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.18.6 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-terminal 1.1.3 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfconf 4.19.2 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:16] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-taskmanager 1.5.7 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:17] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-clipman-plugin 1.6.6 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[09:12] <knome> bluesabre, yay
[09:15] <knome> dunno about gucharmap, i still use it, but i'm likely in the minority.. but has ubuntu replaced it with something else or just dropped it?
[09:15] <JackFrost> I still have it.
[09:16] <knome> dropping it will unlikely break anything but is it a convenience hit
[10:51] <bluesabre> knome: it's still in there, just moved down the seed
[11:21] <knome> ahha
[11:21] <knome> good good
[11:37] <bluesabre> The new installer finally installs! https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Sp0HRLd4/Screenshot%20from%202024-03-01%2006-28-11.png
[11:37] <bluesabre> But it doesn't create a usable user yet. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/DkZJiiAt/Screenshot%20from%202024-03-01%2006-29-04.png
[11:37] <bluesabre> It's also really load to start. But we're almost there!
[11:38] <bluesabre> s/load/slow
[12:06] <bluesabre> 24.04 daily seems to have Python 3.11 and 3.12... not sure how problematic that is, or if it's mid-migration.
[12:24] <knome> installer installs?
[12:24] <knome> isn't it supposed to install the system?
[12:24] <knome> (;
[12:24] <knome> do we know the reason for the slowness?
[12:52] <fossfreedom_> If you are referring to the 90 second delay before the contents of the window shows then yeah we have seen that on both UB and edubuntu.  I suspect this is because of the initial stable installer starting & stopping before launching the candidate installer.  Once Canonical have moved it from candidate to stable/24.04 then we'll know better.
[12:53] <fossfreedom_> As to why you can't login - dunno - could be a subiquity issue or a provision issue.


[02:13] <IdleOne> !away  Karmaon|away
[02:13] <IdleOne> !away > Karmaon|away
[10:07] <LjL> [12:06:29] <Guest20643> well out all the one what desktop is more like android and less like windows or apple like where i can just tick to look and feel like i want it ....i just got a PM telling me to try arch distro
[10:39] <Wizard> Hi.
[10:39] <Tm_T> hi Wizard
[10:39] <Wizard> Hi Tm_T :]
[10:40] <oCean> hi Wizard, I just informed you of this channel for future reference.
[10:40] <oCean> As you can read in this channel's topic, we don't allow idling here
[10:40] <Tm_T> oCean: I think general discussion about maintaining channels should be in -irc instead of here (:
[10:41] <oCean> Tm_T: eh yes, but this is the place for issue resolving in core channels, right?
[10:44] <Tm_T> oCean: yes. but third party shouldn't be involved unless there's really heavy reason to
[10:44] <Tm_T> ...which means third party to -irc and discuss issue in general level
[10:46] <oCean> Tm_T: I'm not sure. Are we not considering opening up -ops so others (ie 3rd party) can see/learn how we (= core channel ops) handle these issues?
[10:47] <Tm_T> oCean: they read logs, they do not join the channel to discuss other's issues
[10:47] <Tm_T> as in, we do not allow audience here
[10:47] <Myrtti> it was discussed in UDS and has been discussed in IRCC meetings, but I don't think formal decision and announcement has been made
[10:47] <oCean> Tm_T: well, that was the discussion we had recently
[10:47] <oCean> ^
[10:47] <AlanBell> o/
[10:48] <Tm_T> ah, until it's done and written somewhere, we go as before if you ask me (:
[10:48] <Tm_T> (I don't understand why we would need any audience here if we have public logs anyway)
[10:48] <AlanBell> we decided to process the queues and see if there was still a desire to change anything after that
[10:48] <Myrtti> Tm_T: +1
[10:49] <AlanBell> various sensible people who pop in here might end up as operators and the problem (to the extent that it is a problem) might go away
[10:49] <Tm_T> only thing having "live" audience here would add distraction and unnecessary interruption
[10:50] <Tm_T> AlanBell: which is why we should discuss things in -irc where those possible operators can involve, in general level
[10:50] <AlanBell> yup
[10:51] <Tm_T> opening up this channel (turning this to -irc, essentially) won't solve anything
[10:51] <AlanBell> and we decided not to do that
[14:53] <cryptopsy> hi fags
[14:53] <cryptopsy> bye fags
[14:54] <IdleOne> Who was that ignorant troll!
[14:55] <Fuchs> a known one
[15:49] <mneptok> IME, most of the homosexual community would not discriminate against others that way, and would be sure to include them in a greeting.
  might need an eye on in #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, even though it gets better currently.
[20:22] <Fuchs> (a different user just reported to me, no idea why he comes to me, though)


[02:54] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::planet:: Faizul "Piju" 9M2PJU: Why Ubuntu Linux Reigns Supreme in the Cloud: Unveiling Its Unrivaled Advantages and Top Usages @ https://hamradio.my/why-ubuntu-linux-reigns-supreme-in-the-cloud-unveiling-its-unrivaled-advantages-and-top-usages/
[02:54] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::planet:: Faizul "Piju" 9M2PJU: Celebrate the Release of Ubuntu Noble Numbat 24.04 with the Ubuntu Malaysia Local Community! @ https://hamradio.my/celebrate-the-release-of-ubuntu-noble-numbat-24-04-with-the-ubuntu-malaysia-local-community/
[06:41]  * guiverc is going to paste frist ...
[06:43]  * guiverc out
[10:43]  * guiverc posting some summaries
[11:00]  * guiverc was out but is going in again
[11:01]  * guiverc noted PaulW2U appear on window ... checking..
[11:02]  * guiverc out & in review
[11:10] <guiverc> Bashing-om  (if you see this in review).. what I did is VERY ROUGH... was out most of the day & thus what was done was quick & without normal review.. thus ROUGH.. I note Paul has cleaned some up, so thanks PaulW2U
[19:30] <Bashing-om> UWN: Opening 839 for Saturday thingies - will be a spell at this :D
[19:32] <Bashing-om> PaulW2U: "guiverc: I note Paul has cleaned some up, so thanks PaulW2U" +10 - Welcome back !!
[21:05] <Bashing-om> Saved and out.


[03:45] <cmaloney> Wow, Yahoo is killing their Directory service
[03:46] <cmaloney> http://yahoo.tumblr.com/post/98474044364/progress-report-continued-product-focus
[03:46] <bookiebot> http://goo.gl/wd4Ub8 - Progress Report: Continued Product Focus | Yahoo
[03:46] <cmaloney> It's like they're doing a product inventory and wondering what that server in the corner is still doing.
[03:59] <_stink_> hah
[14:54] <cmaloney> Morning
[15:45] <rick_h_> morning
[17:37] <gamerchick02> happy saturday afternoon
[21:22] <cmaloney> Howdy. :)
[22:05] <rick_h_> wheee


[05:32] <gregh7470> hi every1  :)
[05:33] <gregh7470> Q: If I install a firewall after I install ubuntuone are there any ports I have to forward?
[05:33] <gregh7470> I wanted to install GUFW
[08:30] <elky> gregh7470, i dont recall having to open anything specifically for it.
[09:10] <till> Good morning.
[09:29] <aquarius> hey till
[10:25] <jetienne> q. is there a client for ubuntu 8.10 ?
[13:48] <facundobatista> Hi all
[13:52] <statik> moshi moshi
[13:58] <facundobatista> statik, that means "hello" in some language?
[13:59] <statik> facundobatista: an informal japanese greeting
[13:59] <facundobatista> statik, hi then!
[14:00] <statik> hi :)
[14:01] <urbanape> Morning, all. Running my father-in-law to the airport. Should be back by standup time.
[14:05] <aquarius> hola statik
[14:05] <aquarius> I thought moshi moshi was what you shouted at huskies to make them pull your sledge faster
[14:06] <statik> hey there aquarius. heard about tomboy sync from rodrigo?
[14:06] <statik> that too
[14:06] <aquarius> statik: rodrigo_ said that he has it working but can't get the packages to work on jaunty
[14:06] <aquarius> statik: I'm going to put a video of it in the oscon presentation
[14:07] <statik> aquarius: i will be landing a branch today that makes the tomboy notes show up on m.ubuntuone.com all formatted for mobile phones. right now the css looks very iphonelike, but it works fine on android and pre also
[14:07] <aquarius> statik: rawk!
[14:08] <statik> readonly, no edit or search yet but should be *ahem* trivial
[14:10] <aquarius> cor, I should have videos of both of those, shouldn't I?
[14:10] <aquarius> both tonboy sync and local tonboy-save-to-couchdb-directly
[14:10] <till> thisfred: ping, when you wake up :)
[14:10] <thisfred> till: I'm awake :)
[14:14] <dobey> statik: moshi is mainly something you'd say on the phone :)
[14:14] <aquarius> dobey: aha, I need to talk to you
[14:14] <statik> i insist on using it completely incorrectly because i don't know any better
[14:14] <statik> :D
[14:14] <dobey> heh
[14:14] <jblount> Neat! kenvandine just linked this up on twitterdenti.ca: http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Common-Keyring-KDE-and-GNOME-Combine-Password-Management-Efforts
[14:14] <aquarius> dobey: I do believe your complaint about UnknownLoginError is unjustifies because you've parsed it wrong
[14:14] <dobey> statik: it's the american way! :)
[14:15] <dobey> aquarius: how so? it's getting raised for ssl cert validation fail in pycurl
[14:15] <dobey> and presumably for other pycurl errors as well
[14:16] <aquarius> dobey: because you're parsing it as an "unknown login" error, i.e., that the login was unknown. It is in fact an unknown "login error", i.e., something unexpected which happened during the login process.
[14:16] <aquarius> dobey: took me two days to realise what your complaint meant. :)
[14:16] <dobey> aquarius: no. i'm parsing it as unknown error having to do with login
[14:16] <aquarius> dobey: I can see how it could do with being renamed :)
[14:17] <aquarius> dobey: then what's wrong with it?
[14:17] <dobey> aquarius: however, that code has absolutley nothing to do with logging in
[14:17] <dobey> all it does is grab the request token afaict
[14:17] <aquarius> dobey: ah, the whole process is logging in.
[14:17] <aquarius> dobey: according to me it is, anyway. You could call it an UnknownKeyExchangeAndLoginAndEverythingError, I suppose
[14:17] <dobey> and the errors aren't unknown. it does that for any error raised by pycurl :)
[14:18] <aquarius> dobey: iyeah, the idea was to catch random stuff that goes wrong under one heading. :)
[14:19] <dobey> in that case, 'GeneralRequestError' would be a better name
[14:19] <aquarius> agreed
[14:19] <dobey> but either way, some of the errors we actually need to deal with in a useful way
[14:19] <dobey> like ssl cert validation failure
[14:19] <aquarius> dobey: yeah, if there *is* some useful way to deal with a given error then it ought to be trapped
[14:19] <aquarius> how can we usefully deal with that?
[14:20] <dobey> well, knowing *why* it failed and reporting that to the user is more useful than 'unknownloginerror'
[14:21] <dobey> because there are a bunch of bug reports about 'unknownloginerror' now, and i suspect a few are ssl cert failures, and a few are proxy failures, etc...
[14:21] <aquarius> depends on your point of view, I suppose. You get the actual error from the traceback, no?
[14:22] <dobey> no
[14:22] <aquarius> oh!
[14:22] <aquarius> then definitely I was wrong and wrapping them all up in one error is a bad idea.
[14:22] <aquarius> I think it might be a relic of the days when you got libnotify popups when something went wrong.
[14:23] <dobey> i don't know why we don't, as the code implies we should
[14:23] <dobey> but it's probably better to just re-raise the exception we got, since they're all wrapped up in the generic pycurl.error anyway
[14:23] <aquarius> we don't because mpt beat me with a big stick
[14:23] <dobey> for libnotify, yes
[14:23] <aquarius> agreed, yeah, just re-raise. Better, don't even trap it.
[14:24] <dobey> well, it looks like we log it
[14:24] <aquarius> k
[14:24] <aquarius> then your tweet complaint was justified. Gave me something to think about while drinking beer one afternoon, anyway ;)
[14:25] <thisfred> aquarius: didn't you ask about Ubuntu One on Intrepid? Someone's been trying at least: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client/+question/73276
[14:25] <aquarius> thisfred: I asked because someone in here asked and I was going to let them know
[14:25] <dobey> i think gtk+ is hosed in intrepid
[14:25] <thisfred> aquarius: ah, might have been the same person then
[14:26] <aquarius> dobey: can't be all that hosed, can it? since, er, applications worked
[14:26] <dobey> but i don't have intrepid anywhere to look at /usr/include/gtk-2.0/ with
[14:26] <dobey> aquarius: well, the header files anyway
[14:26] <dobey> although opensuse 11.1 apparently has the same issue
[14:28] <dobey> or maybe the nautilus headers are busted and gtk.h is ok
[14:30] <aquarius> could be. I only do Python :)
[14:38] <aquarius> dobey: second question: why is advertisePort.py now in utilities?
[14:38] <aquarius> dobey: it shouldn't be.
[14:41] <dobey> because it's a script that gets run, and not something that gets imported, afaict
[14:42] <dobey> so in my build fixes branch i moved it, because it made the most sense based on that knowledge
[14:45] <statik> aquarius: how would you feel about having desktopcouch.records and desktopcouch.contacts in a single python-desktopcouch ubuntu package?
[14:46] <aquarius> statik: fine as a source package. not sure about binary packages; lots of people will want .records without wanting .contacts
[14:47] <aquarius> dobey: it does get imported, and also it needs to go onto the desktop. It's not just a thing we run from make start; it manages the startup/port-export process for everyone's desktop couch
[14:47] <statik> aquarius: ok. reason i'm asking is because it's a tiny amount of code in .contacts, and it makes the packaging more complicated to split it (not impossible, just can't use the trivial rules file i've been using)
[14:48] <aquarius> statik: ah, if it's that tiny, what the hell
[14:48] <dobey> gets imported by what?
[14:48] <rodrigo_> aquarius, statik: unfortunately, tomboy syncing isn't working, it's failing on oauth
[14:48] <aquarius> dobey: ah, it doesn't get imported, it gets run by d-bus activation
[14:49] <dobey> aquarius: i think it has to be run manually because there is no .service file for it
[14:49] <aquarius> dobey: yeah, when I say "it gets run by d-bus activation" I mean "that is the plan"
[14:49] <aquarius> dobey: the .service file hasn't been written yet
[14:50] <dobey> aquarius: but if it needs to be installed to the desktop and run by the user via dbus, we should rename it and install it appropriately via setup.py. not as part of the python package :)
[14:50] <statik> rodrigo_: is the oauth something we can fix completely on our side, or does it require changes in tomboy?
[14:50] <aquarius> dobey: agreed, once we get that far
[14:50] <rodrigo_> statik: I am not sure, I've changed some stuff on our side, but keeps failing
[14:51] <rodrigo_> statik: I'm waiting for sandy to come back from vacation (today) to ask him
[14:51] <rodrigo_> statik: but if you know about oauth, I'd appreciate if you could have a look
[14:51] <statik> rodrigo_: sure
[14:51] <rodrigo_> statik: let me commit and push my branch
[15:01]  * vds thinks it's me time...
[15:01] <jblount> MEETING BEGINS
[15:01] <jblount> Welcome to the Ubuntu One desktop+ developers meeting. If you are here for the meeting, please resond with "me", we can try going in order of those repsponses. Format is TODO / DONE / BLOCKED
[15:01] <urbanape> me
[15:01] <vds> me
[15:01] <jblount> me
[15:01] <teknico> me
[15:01] <statik> me
[15:01] <dobey> me
[15:02] <CardinalFang> me
[15:02] <urbanape> DONE: Pushed a few more feature branches to ubunet for the new files UI.
[15:02] <urbanape> TODO: Finish up sharing popup, and try to reify some notes I made about a new details module for all these popup actions.
[15:02] <urbanape> BLOCK: None
[15:02] <urbanape> vds, if you please.
[15:02] <vds> DONE: landed all branches related to funambol-ds, some of code review, started a new branch to fix some ds-server db init, more test on ds-server with mark
[15:02] <vds> TODO: do some
[15:02] <vds> BLOCKED: no
[15:02] <vds> jblount your turn
[15:02] <jblount> DONE: Landed a js branch to clear the bug reporting form on focus, worked on delete functionality
[15:02] <jblount> TODO: Finish delete branch, start to get /files/new in better shape for public consumption
[15:03] <jblount> BLOCKED: Nope
[15:03] <jblount> teknico: rocknroll
[15:03] <teknico> DONE: discussed the script testing policy with markgsaye, testing scripts in utilities/
[15:03] <rodrigo_> me
[15:03] <teknico> TODO: more testing scripts in utilities/
[15:03] <teknico> BLOCKED: none
[15:03] <teknico> next: statik
[15:03] <statik> DONE: Face duty, code reviews, bug triage, a bit of webui hacking.
[15:03] <statik> TODO: help rodrigo with tomboy sync, anything aquarius needs for oscon, package lp:bindwood, talk to the platform team about various packages in the pipe.
[15:03] <statik> BLCK: none.
[15:03] <statik> next dobey
[15:03] <aquarius> me
[15:03] <dobey> DONE: Reviews, Small package fixes, Bug triage,
[15:03] <dobey> TODO: Do pycentral magic for 'make install', #378707
[15:03] <dobey> BLCK: None.
[15:04] <dobey> CardinalFang: Nobody expects it
[15:04] <CardinalFang> DONE: More spawning work.  Oh-so-close to finished replacing paste.
[15:04] <CardinalFang> TODO: Finish.  Eyeball pairing next steps and answer aq's questions.
[15:04] <CardinalFang> BLOCKED: None
[15:04] <CardinalFang> rodrigo_: heya!
[15:04] <rodrigo_> DONE: fixed notes views and added basic tests for them. Released couchdb-glib-0.4.2 with REVU fixes and submitted to REVU again. Continued trying to make tomboy syncing work
[15:05] <rodrigo_> TODO: fix oauth problem with tomboy. Fix and submit a new evo-couchdb package for REVU
[15:05] <rodrigo_> BLOCKED: none
[15:05] <rodrigo_> aquarius: your turn
[15:05] <aquarius> DONE: holiday, celebrate, it should be so nice; spoke with thisfred about couch packaging; finishing OSCON presentation; talk to dobey about refactoring and UnknownLoginError
[15:05] <aquarius> TODO: make videos of various things to demo in OSCON presentation; tidy up last bits of presentation; write demos; fly to OSCON
[15:05] <aquarius> BLOCKED: lsof stuff (nearing the point where it's not needed now!)
[15:05] <aquarius> and I think I'm last
[15:06] <jblount> MEETING ENDS
[15:06] <jblount> Well done everyone, I'll take a 6 minute stand up any day.
[15:06] <dobey> aquarius: you are aware that we aren't doing lsof any more in desktopcouch, right?
[15:07] <aquarius> dobey: tim's patch has gone in already?
[15:07]  * statik mumbles that proc walking is not any better than lsof
[15:07] <dobey> i didn't say it was better
[15:07] <aquarius> ok, then my last point should be "proc walking stuff".
[15:07] <statik> heh
[15:08] <dobey> hrmm
[15:08] <thisfred> aquarius: dobey statik: I think noone is happy with that code, but since couchdb trunk is a moving target, having it working without a patch that we need to maintain may be worth it for the short run
[15:08] <statik> yep, agreed
[15:08] <dobey> statik: btw *thwap* for not using tarmac on desktopcouch
[15:09] <statik> err, yeah
[15:09] <statik> i should be using tarmac
[15:09] <dobey> yes, yes you should
[15:10] <dobey> especially since it automagically preserves thea author :)
[15:10] <dobey> or well, hopefully my other pending branches will land soon and we can get an ec2 thing running tarmac for us
[15:13] <dobey> statik: hrmm, also, i think bug #400746 would probably be better off assigned to one of the syncdaemon guys, since i don't really know that code, and the issues are all syncdaemon performance problems, no?
[15:15] <statik> dobey: depends on whether there is a standard trick for doing a deferred startup that you could apply in the packaging or shortcut files so that it doesn't block the session i think. making local scan work faster is something verterok is working on, but i think the main thing that bug report is about is ubuntuone showing up on the bootcharts
[15:15] <statik> dobey: can you ask keybuk/pitti if there is anything they recommend?
[15:16] <dobey> statik: we can't do a deferred startup
[15:16] <verterok> statik, dobey: we could avoid starting the syncdaemon if the applet don't connect on startup
[15:16] <dobey> verterok: no we can't. the syncdaemon starting has nothing to do with the applet starting
[15:17] <verterok> dobey: who is starting syncdaemon if isn't the applet?
[15:17] <statik> dobey: can't do a deferred startup because the nautilus extension is triggering the syncd to start?
[15:17] <dobey> verterok: the syncdaemon is getting started by dbus activation, because nautilus queries it
[15:17] <dobey> ie, nautilus needs to know what directory is the Ubuntu One root, and if it is connected or not
[15:18] <dobey> and if there are any current transfers, and what folders are shared
[15:18] <statik> dobey: yeah that is sounding like something you can't work around outside of the syncdaemon.
[15:19] <statik> verterok: is it possible to make syncdaemon defer the initial local scan and answer those questions for nautilus cheaply without talking to the server?
[15:20] <verterok> dobey, statik: we could add new state to syncdaemon, to avoid local rescan, e.g: and start local rescan when "connect" is requested
[15:20] <verterok> I'm not sure that's the best solution...
[15:21] <verterok> statik: so, it's possible
[15:21] <statik> verterok: yeah, i'm not sure either. this is a serious bug though, it will get us kicked out of the desktop if we can't figure out some way to avoid slowing down startup
[15:22] <statik> (by kicked out i mean removed from the default installation)
[15:23] <verterok> statik: I think we could "delay" local rescan execution, e.g: doing a reactor.callLater, but I need to check the side effects of doing that.
[15:25] <statik> verterok: thanks! so i agree with dobey that this bug is something that doesn't seem that he can work around on the nautilus side unfortunately
[15:26] <verterok> statik: yes, but if the applet is autostarting it will connect the syncdaemon
[15:27] <dobey> the applet isn't autostarting until you actually sign up and authorize your computer
[15:29] <statik> __lucio__: ^ just revisiting our discussion from earlier, it seems that the startup time issues cannot be worked around by postponing startup of syncdaemon
[15:30] <toriq1> hi. is this the right channel for support question about ubuntu one?
[15:32] <statik> hi toriq1, you are in the right place
[15:33] <verterok> statik, dobey: can't the nautilus extension wait until nautilus is opened to do all this queries to syncdaemon?
[15:34] <dobey> verterok: nautilus is opened on start-up (the desktop is just a nautilus window)
[15:34] <statik> verterok: i don't know very much about nautilus but i think it is started in order to draw the desktop
[15:34] <__lucio__> statik: verterok: we need to understand the policy here. when syncdaemon starts (starts, not connects) it will re scan the disc and re hash whats changed. we have some fixes that improve the "changed set" detection and we are now working on making local rescan a much faster process
[15:34] <__lucio__> if thats not enough, we have to: 1- so local rescan at other moment and delay connecting, 2- despair
[15:35] <__lucio__> so/do
[15:35] <statik> __lucio__: i'm not sure the technical changes to accomplish this, but we need to find a way that rescan is taken out of the path of session start/bootcharts
[15:35] <dobey> __lucio__: i think part of the problem is that it's doing a lot of work when there's really nothing to do.
[15:35] <statik> a lot of this i'm just learning about as we discuss it here
[15:35] <verterok> __lucio__: I think we could delay LR, but I'm trying to understand why nautilus need all the info from syncdaemon if the ~/Ubuntu One folder wasn't opened
[15:35] <verterok> dobey: ^
[15:35] <dobey> __lucio__: ie, when the user installs a fresh karmic desktop, and they dont' have an account
[15:36] <dobey> verterok: because it doens't know that the ~/Ubuntu One folder is the folder where ubuntu one stuff is kept
[15:36] <dobey> verterok: and at some point when support arbitrary folders, we certainly can't hardcode ~/Ubuntu One as the folder
[15:36] <verterok> dobey: that's iin the config file
[15:37] <toriq1> is there any way to see what's happening when ubuntu one is synchronizing? (when the ubuntu is icon spinning)..
[15:37] <__lucio__> dobey: and what is syncdaemon doing in that case? what do the logs say?
[15:37] <toriq1> sometimes it doesn't stop, so I want to know what's happening when it doesn't stop..
[15:37] <verterok> dobey: agreed, but at some point it's somewhat far far away :)
[15:38] <verterok> __lucio__: it's just starting all the machinery as there isn't anything to scan local rescan isn't doing much
[15:38] <statik> should we have a fast dbus interface and a slow dbus interface? right now the problem is that any query to dbus starts up the syncdaemon who then does a lot of work, is that accurate?
[15:40] <verterok> statik, dobey, __lucio__: we could delay LR startup, but that isn't going to buy much, as the syncdamemon will start and I think that's the big issue
[15:40] <verterok> local rescan isn't doing anythig
[15:41] <__lucio__> if the user doesnt even have an account, then nautilus should skip talking to syncdaemon
[15:41] <__lucio__> that would be the fastests way to go around the issue
[15:41] <dobey> how does nautilus know the user doesn't have an account?
[15:41] <statik> __lucio__: the nautilus extension is in C, I think the way it would find out whether the user has an account is by asking the dbus interface right?
[15:42] <dobey> statik: language is irrelevant here
[15:42] <statik> oh
[15:42] <verterok> statik: which dbus interface: syncdaemon, oauthdesktop?
[15:42] <dobey> the syncdaemon doesn't even know if the user has an account, because we don't have a concept of accounts on the desktop
[15:42] <statik> right, all we have is a token maybe
[15:42] <dobey> we have an oauth token that may or may not be valid
[15:44] <statik> toriq1: this information is not exposed in the normal UI. you can use sdtool to find out what the syncdaemon is currently doing though, or look at the logs in ~/.cache/ubuntuone/
[15:45] <__lucio__> so, how long does it stak syncdaemon to quiese? when it has nothing to do? 0.1 second? 1 second? 10? 30?
[15:45] <statik> is there any other information that nautilus needs at startup besides which folders are managed by ubuntuone? maybe we could make an alternative way to discover that info
[15:50] <__lucio__> statik: dobey: whats the bugno for this?
[15:50] <dobey> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client/+bug/400746
[15:50] <dobey> hrmm, so it seems ok when there's no user
[15:50] <dobey> err, no account
[15:51] <dobey> my log in time wasn't excruciatingly slow
[15:52] <dobey> but this is r88 also, which is not in karmic yet
[15:53] <verterok> __lucio__, statik, dobey: it took ~1.5s (real) to start in a clean system (in my 2.0GHz macbook)
[15:54] <statik> verterok: yeah, so we still need to find a way to defer startup so that doesn't show up on the bootcharts
[15:55] <statik> trying to get under 10 second boot time a 1.5 second startup is still too much
[15:55] <verterok> statik: we could move more info to the config file, and the nautilus extension could use that
[15:55] <__lucio__> verterok: 1.5s? what was it doing????
[15:55] <verterok> __lucio__: starting? :p
[15:56] <__lucio__> verterok: libsyncdaemon-vm-metadata
[15:56] <verterok> __lucio__: there is no metadata! :)
[15:56] <__lucio__> verterok: for 1.5s? does syncdaemon make tea while booting and i didnt know about it?
[15:56]  * dobey stabs gnome-power-manager
[15:57] <verterok> __lucio__: http://ubuntuone.pastebin.com/m168916ae
[15:58] <statik> verterok: so i'm ok with the concept of putting more info in a config file, although i really like the clean interface we would get from asking dbus - when more and more people write code that interacts with syncdaemon i'd rather not have them touching the config file directly if there is an easy way to protect it. but if the config file is an easy win for now maybe we should do that. dobey, what do you think?
[15:58] <__lucio__> ok, so: nautilus wont talk to sd unless there is a token. nautilus will get the roots information from somewhere else than (the slow) dbus. someone autostarts syncdaemon one minute after boot
[15:58] <dobey> i don't think moving stuff to a config file is the right way to solve performance issues
[15:59] <dobey> especially once we want to add a preferences ui
[15:59] <__lucio__> verterok: what happens here?\#
[15:59] <__lucio__> 2009-07-20 11:52:25,612 - ubuntuone.SyncDaemon.HQ - INFO - HashQueue: _hasher started
[15:59] <__lucio__> #
[15:59] <__lucio__> 2009-07-20 11:52:26,405 - ubuntuone.SyncDaemon.DBus - DEBUG - using the real system bus
[15:59] <dobey> it shouldn't write directly, but tell syncdaemon to set the options
[15:59] <verterok> __lucio__: syndaemon get's the session bus
[16:01] <verterok> __lucio__: actually, all the dbus exposed objects are created and registered to dbus
[16:01] <dobey> so parsing the config file instead won't help anyway
[16:01] <__lucio__> verterok: 1 second of that?
[16:02] <verterok> __lucio__:  looks like dbus is the slowest thing in the wild west :p
[16:02] <dobey> at least, not without a lot more complexity
[16:02] <__lucio__> verterok: freedesktop is dbus based. how can it boot under 10 sec if just starting one app takes 1?
[16:03] <__lucio__> im not buying htat.
[16:03] <verterok> __lucio__: look the code, it's just creating s few objects a re registering them to the dbus session
[16:03] <verterok> s/re//
[16:03] <dobey> just looking at code doesn't tell you which parts are actually the slow spots
[16:04] <dobey> unless it's obviously bad code with obvious slow spots
[16:04] <verterok> dobey: just pointing out that it's very simple code
[16:04] <dobey> like spin_disk()
[16:05] <dobey> verterok: sure. dbusObject.get_root() is simple code too, until you realize it starts the syncdaemon and does local rescan, and possibly other things :)
[16:05] <dobey> we need some real profiling, and i have no idea how to profile python
[16:06] <dobey> to me, all python is slow :)
[16:07] <verterok> dobey: localrescan takes less than 0.01 seconds
[16:08] <verterok> __lucio__: In [8]: timeit.timeit('import dbus; dbus.SessionBus()')
[16:08] <verterok> Out[8]: 5.3944590091705322
[16:08] <__lucio__> verterok: 5 whats?
[16:08] <verterok> __lucio__: timeit unit? :/
[16:09] <verterok> __lucio__: seconds :p
[16:10] <__lucio__> verterok: right, just getting the bus takes 5 seconds and SD boots in 1
[16:10] <verterok> __lucio__: 10000 executions :p
[16:11] <__lucio__> informacion con cuentagotas
[16:11] <verterok> __lucio__: I'll run sd with lsprof and get a callgrind file
[16:11] <__lucio__> thanks guillo :)
[16:16] <verterok> __lucio__: sync.Sync is the main offender regarding startup time :O
[16:16] <__lucio__> verterok: elaborate please
[16:17] <verterok> __lucio__: is the one that it's created between HQ and DBus
[16:17] <verterok> __lucio__: I
[16:17] <__lucio__> and please point your dirty fingers at someone elses code :P
[16:17] <verterok> __lucio__: I'll profile sync itself to find the hotspots
[16:17] <verterok> __lucio__: :)
[16:20] <verterok> __lucio__: wihtout starting sync: http://ubuntuone.pastebin.com/m7ebc57cf, staring sync: http://ubuntuone.pastebin.com/m413111ec
[16:21] <__lucio__> verterok: ok, 1 second for sync.
[16:21] <__lucio__> nice :)
[16:32] <dobey> rodrigo_: we don't need to explicitly include gtk.h for 2.27.x (or 2.26.x) because the libnautilus-extension includes pull it in for us. but i guess in 2.24, they only included what they needed (which i wish everyone would do but upstream is on this kick to make it 'simple')
[16:33] <rodrigo_> dobey: isn't that part of the API cleanup for GNOME 3.0? to include only top level headers?
[16:34] <dobey> rodrigo_: i don't know if i would call it 'cleanup', but yes. we weren't including anything directly from gtk+ before this though. the nautilus-location-provider.h and such include <gtk/gtk.h> so we don't need to do it ourselves for 2.26+
[16:34] <dobey> rodrigo_: but 2.24 doesn't have those changes, so we do need to do it ourselves for them
[16:34] <rodrigo_> that's what I meant in my comment, that we need to do it also for 2.28/3.0
[16:35] <dobey> i think you're confused a bit :)
[16:36] <dobey> although for 2.28 or 3.0 we /might/ have to switch to using one nautilus-extension.h or something, if upstream is doing that for nautilus as well
[16:36] <rodrigo_> yes, I understand that part, that nautilus-location-provider.h already has it
[16:36] <rodrigo_> for 2.26
[16:37] <rodrigo_> which is part of the API header cleanup AFAIK
[16:37] <dobey> well, more likely it's because gtkfoo.h complains during compile if you include it instead of gtk.h
[16:39] <rodrigo_> yes
[16:39] <dobey> the point though is that we ourselves do not explicitly need to include gtk.h for any reason outside of the fact that nautiuls 2.24 doesn't do it for us
[16:39] <dobey> we could just require nautilus 2.26 for it, but that would be lame
[16:43] <rodrigo_> yeah, too lame :)
[16:44] <dobey> ugh
[16:45] <dobey> every time vcs-imports updates the couchdb-glib and evolution-couchdb projects, i get a bunch of mail :(
[16:46] <rodrigo_> dobey: oh, you're subscribed to it?
[16:46] <dobey> rodrigo_: well, the team is
[16:46] <dobey> and i can't override that it seems :(
[16:46] <rodrigo_> yeah, right
[16:47] <dobey> guess i need to file a launchpad bug for that
[16:47] <andresmujica> hi is possible to access an ubuntuone folder from a Java application? is there a workaround?
[16:48] <__lucio__> andresmujica: a workaround for java?
[16:48] <__lucio__> some people say python is such a thing
[16:48] <dobey> andresmujica: the local folder is just a regular folder
[16:48] <dobey> you can open() it with any language
[16:48] <andresmujica> hmm i cannot see it from my java app... let me check
[16:50] <andresmujica> duh. ignore my q.   thanks.
[18:22] <till> Ok, time for some comet hackery.
[18:22] <till> Does anyone in here know how the comet notifications work, in couchdb trunk?
[19:27] <billybigrigger> hey all
[19:28] <dobey> hi
[19:28] <billybigrigger> Installed: 0.90.3-0ubuntu1 <<<< just installed this, now it won't run from Applications>Internet>Ubuntu One
[19:28] <billybigrigger> it starts a process, but never opens any window
[19:30] <dobey> 0.90.4 was just uploaded to karmic today. it might not be published yet, but please upgrade and try it when it becomes available
[19:31] <dobey> it has a lot of fixes, and should make that work better
[19:32] <billybigrigger> ooooh ok :P
[19:33] <billybigrigger> speak of the devil, there it is :P
[19:34] <billybigrigger> oooh nasty message now :P
[19:34] <billybigrigger> http://imagebin.ca/view/P47-e1oV.html
[19:35] <dobey> GtkLabel fail
[19:39] <dobey> billybigrigger: hrmm, what does the far right end of that dialog say?
[19:41] <till> Ah, there's the man I'm supposed to talk to. :)
[19:41] <till> thisfred: evening
[19:41] <till> (in my timezone)
[19:41] <till> thisfred: I'm Till, I'm currently implementing the Akonadi couchdb resource and am wondering how the comet notifications are supposed to work, in trunk.
[19:42] <thisfred> till, in my timezone as well: ponged immediately after your ping, but I guess you missed that, or maybe freenode flaked out ;)
[19:43] <thisfred> till: I'm also still figuring out the _changes stuff myself
[19:43] <thisfred> but for now the idea is that it sends more or less what it used to send to the update notifiers, except there's a feed per db
[19:44] <till> thisfred: aquarius told me to talk to you about it
[19:44] <till> thisfred: so basically i sit in a blocking GET no a per db _changes url?
[19:45] <thisfred> till: yes, if you want the streaming version, which I think we do. So that's kinda bad. I think there will be a per server feed again, since that will be much easier to handle
[19:45] <thisfred> but it's not there yet'
[19:46] <billybigrigger> dobey, http://imagebin.ca/view/Zk4O4LZo.html
[19:46] <billybigrigger> theres the other half
[19:46] <thisfred> till, you can also just periodically get without streaming=true, and then keep state somewhere to know which events are new
[19:48] <till> thisfred: nah, I think I'll just pop it into a thread and block
[19:48] <till> thisfred: are the urls and formats documented somewhere?
[19:49] <thisfred> till: for the desktop side of things, this is doable of course. On the other side, we'll have thousands of dbs, and things are a little harder...
[19:49] <thisfred> till I'l try and see if I can dig up some links for you
[19:49] <till> I'm over here in happy desktop/devices land, where things are easy. :)
[19:50] <dobey> crikey
[19:52] <billybigrigger> dobey, should i file a bug?
[19:54] <dobey> billybigrigger: for the size of the dialog, or for the failure to launch your browser which seems to be configured to run "" ?
[19:54] <thisfred> till, actually there is a patch for a global _changes already proposed I now see. The mailing lists are just too high traffic to keep up.
[19:55] <dobey> maybe i should just make the code do a gconftool-2 --unset on some keys
[19:59] <thisfred> till, can't really find anything good on the web, but I can point you to this discussion, which has all the current features somewhat explained<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:00] <thisfred> till, the url is always server:host/dbname/_changes
[20:00] <till> Cool, thanks.
[20:01] <thisfred> a running one you can look at is chris anderson's blog: http://jchrisa.net/drl/_changes ;)
[20:02] <till> Well, I've got a local trunk checkout running, hopefully I can trigger it there.
[20:08] <billybigrigger> dobey, i have a similar problem with thunderbird, trying to open links it doesn't want to open my browser
[20:08] <billybigrigger> but i have my browser set in preferred apps
[20:10] <thisfred> till, ok, good luck, the #couchdb channel is pretty friendly when anyone's awake, and let me know what you run into. I'm sorry I'm not of more help yet, but I'll be diving into _changes soon myself, if all goes well, and this mountain of other stuff magically evaporates as I expect it to ;)
[20:11] <till> thisfred: works fine, so far
[20:11] <dobey> billybigrigger: "gconftool-2 -g /desktop/gnome/applications/browser/exec" says what?
[20:11] <till> thisfred: I'm getting notificatinos from my own changes
[20:11] <till> thisfred: seems pretty straight forward
[20:11] <thisfred> till, cool
[20:11] <billybigrigger> dobey, chromium-browser, which is wrong, should be firefox-3.6
[20:12] <dobey> billybigrigger: and if you change it, does it then work?
[20:12] <billybigrigger> yes it does
[20:12] <billybigrigger> must have lost config somewhere
[20:12] <till> thisfred: do you guys have something server side yet that I can play with, btw?
[20:12] <dobey> billybigrigger: you aren't the only one to have had this issue
[20:12] <till> thisfred: I'm just curious, don't need it for my akonadi work, atm.
[20:12] <billybigrigger> dobey, hmm ok
[20:13] <dobey> billybigrigger: i don't think it's lost config, so much as just horrible usability and complexity
[20:13] <billybigrigger> well i remember setting it only a few days ago
[20:13] <billybigrigger> oh well, u1 is working :P
[20:16] <thisfred> till: another very exciting development in trunk is the _changes filters implemented today by chris anderson. They allow you to filter out changes you're not interested in with a little JS, and seem pretty flexible/powerful.
[20:17] <till> Nice.
[20:17] <thisfred> till: look in /share/www/script/test/changes.js for examples of usage
[20:19] <thisfred> till, oh missed your question: we may have soon, but not yet. I think someone was working on notes.
[20:19] <till> thisfred: notes would be interesting to play with, we're currently re-doing notes in KDE completely.
[20:20] <thisfred> till, I think rodrigo_  and/or statik would know a little more about that. Hopefully. Or I've just done an aquarius... ;)
[20:21] <till> I'll just hang around. :)
[20:21] <till> My boys don't let me code much, these days, so hanging around is good use of my time, I reckon. ;)
[20:21] <thisfred> till mostly for the server and the desktop to interact, we need oauth in couch working, which is what I'm supposed to be testing now
[20:22] <till> Ah, indeed.
[20:22] <thisfred> except that it's 9:30 almost, and I haven't had dinner yet, so first that.
[20:22] <thisfred> later all!