[10:40] <pochu> @schedule madrid
[10:40] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 28 Feb 19:00: Accessibility Team | 28 Feb 21:00: Edubuntu | 28 Feb 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Mar 16:00: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting | 01 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 17:00: Kernel Team
[07:00] <heno> Hello everyone
[07:01] <heno> I think we are still waiting for a few people
[07:01] <dholbach> Hello everybody
[07:02] <heno> Mike Pedersen (Orca team and Sun) emailed me saying he would join
[07:03] <dholbach> yeah, he mailed me too - I mailed the Karlsruhe Accessibility list too
[07:03] <heno> Anyone from the Karlsruhe or Rugen team here today?
[07:04] <dholbach> hehe :-)
[07:05] <heno> OK, perhaps we'll start with introductions
[07:05] <heno> I'm Henrik Omma, Ubuntu accessibility coordinator
[07:05] <dholbach> hi mikepedersen
[07:06] <mikepedersen> Hi, sorry to be late.
[07:06] <heno> mikepedersen: just doing introductions
[07:07] <heno> I haven't made a real agenda, but we are focusing on Feisty bugs
[07:07] <heno> see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Testing/Bugs
[07:08] <dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, I mainly work on GNOME and with lots of teams of the Development Community, the Accessibility team among them.
[07:08] <mikepedersen> I'm the orca usability engineer at Sun
[07:08] <heno> I think it's a bit too early for TheMuso (in .au), but we can perhaps catch him a bit later
[07:09] <heno> He maintains a few of the packages in question
[07:09] <mikepedersen> Braille still has me filled with much sadness.
[07:09] <mikepedersen> It still doesn't talk to orca at all.
[07:09] <heno> are your issues listed on the wiki page above?
[07:10] <heno> we really should get one or two braille displays for our dev team
[07:10] <mikepedersen> they are listed in a couple of the bugs which I believe are listed.  Today's firefox is giving me trouble so I don't have the page up right now
[07:11] <heno> I can only test it with the braille monitor
[07:11] <halim61> Which version of brlltty are using?
[07:11] <mikepedersen> Does Luke have a display?
[07:11] <heno> yes
[07:11] <dholbach> halim61: 3.7.2
[07:11] <mikepedersen> 3.7.2 is what is in feisty.
[07:12] <dholbach> heno: maybe the guys doing certification should have one.
[07:12] <heno> dholbach: or Scott, who can actually read braille
[07:12] <dholbach> Oh, I didn't know that.
[07:12] <krister> Hi folks, sorry i'm late
[07:12] <dholbach> hi krister
[07:13] <dholbach> halim61: is there a newer version you think we should have?
[07:13] <heno> mikepedersen: how can we try to track this further?
[07:13] <mikepedersen> Does Luke have a display?
[07:13] <heno> is it a brltty->orca problem?
[07:13] <heno> mikepedersen: yes he does
[07:13] <heno> not sure what model
[07:14] <dholbach> krister: we did introtudctions and heno pointed us to a list of most important bugs he compiled: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Testing/Bugs
[07:14] <krister> I have a braille voyager that's powered by usb, does that help?
[07:14] <mikepedersen> the same configureation worked fine on edgy I think it is a side effect of the current problem of USB displays trying to start twice aat boot.
[07:14] <heno> krister: yes, are you running feisty?
[07:15] <heno> ugh, the link to that bug is wrong
[07:15] <krister> Yes, and my display also started twice. I solved that by simply removing the brltty script, because it turned out there was another brltty-dist script that did the same.
[07:16] <dholbach> krister: which script was that?
[07:16] <mikepedersen> If I remove the brltty script in /etc/init.d brltty keeps trying to start over and over again.
[07:17] <mikepedersen> Henrik, this is the bug you closed a few weeks ago that really isn't fully fixed.
[07:17] <mikepedersen> sorry I don't have the number in front of me.
[07:17] <krister> In my system there was one brltty script and a brltty-dist script both in /etc/init.d i removed the one called brltty, since it was an old script and now my display starts only once or so i think.
[07:18] <heno> https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brltty/+bug/83939
[07:18] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 83939 in brltty "brltty starts twice on boot" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]
[07:18] <heno> That's still open
[07:18] <heno> I'll change the status though
[07:19] <heno> ok, original bug 80892
[07:19] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 80892 in linux-source-2.6.20 "USB braille display no longer starts with brltty" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/80892
[07:19] <krister> I don't know, but if there are people here having braille displays, you could check if there are more scripts in /etc/init.d that are called something with "brltty".
[07:20] <dholbach> krister: that suggests that a newly installed brltty should work nicely (with the new configuration file), so i understand correctly?
[07:21] <mikepedersen> in init.d I only have the brltty script
[07:21] <krister> The new configuration file?
[07:21] <heno> That might actually be missing
[07:22] <heno> when updating I saw this error:
[07:22] <heno> cp: cannot stat '/etc/udev/rules.d/85-brltty.rules'
[07:22] <heno> mvo, mvo_ ^ :)
[07:22] <heno> update bug
[07:22] <dholbach> krister: you said there was a brltty.dist and brltty file - that situation happens, when dpkg wants to install a new version of a conffile, but you made local changes - I interpreted "removed the one called brltty, since it was an old script" as that situation
[07:23] <krister> Yup, i did and that solved the problem.
[07:23] <dholbach> ok, good.
[07:23] <krister> Should one perhaps rename brltty-dist to brltty?
[07:24] <dholbach> brltty-dist only exists, if you do local changes to that file (before the update) and then not let dpkg overwrite your old file with the new one
[07:24] <mikepedersen> Krister, are you able to get Orca to talk to brlapi?
[07:25] <hittsjunk> I had orca using brltty last week with no problems.
[07:25] <krister> I'm an idiot when it comes to programming and programming terms, in other words sorry, i didn't understand the question.:-)
[07:25] <mikepedersen> WHen you run orca do you get braille?
[07:26] <hittsjunk> yes
[07:26] <krister> Loud and clear. i have braille as well.
[07:26] <mikepedersen> are you using an USB display
[07:26] <hittsjunk> I use a serial display.
[07:26] <krister> Yes sir.
[07:26] <heno> mikepedersen: do you have an upgrade or a fresh feisty install in this case? (I think you said Herd 4)
[07:27] <mikepedersen> This laptop has been upgraded several times over the last month.  It is now current as of today.
[07:27] <mikepedersen> I'm currently downloading a new live cd though.
[07:28] <dholbach> It'd be interesting to know which Accessibility bugs you see as big showstoppers at the moment.
[07:29] <mikepedersen> Krister, an interesting test would be to put back the brltty script, let brltty try to start twice and see if orca still shows braille.  This would confirm what I'm seeing with orca.
[07:29] <heno> mikepedersen: can we follow this up later with Luke? Possibly by phone or skype?
[07:29] <mikepedersen> sure,
[07:30] <mikepedersen> send me a note off-line and we can set something up.
[07:30] <halim61> Does the current feisty gnomespeech include viavoice support?
[07:30] <hittsjunk> The problems with at-spi 1.17.1 are causing me to most trouble now.
[07:30] <dholbach> halim61: sorry for my ignorance, but is viavoice one of the proprietary options?
[07:30] <heno> dholbach: yes
[07:30] <mikepedersen> Kenny, a fix for this was checked in to svn last night.
[07:30] <dholbach> halim61: it'll be hard to get support for that in :-(
[07:31] <halim61> There is a dummy package available to support opensource apps.
[07:31] <heno> we've not really looked at building with support for those yet
[07:31] <dholbach> and at-spi 1.17.2 should hit the archive (after the freeze probably)
[07:31] <hittsjunk> I saw that haven't upgraded yet.  They relased 1.17.2 today.
[07:31] <dholbach> yeah, I updated the package
[07:31] <heno> has anyone tested the braille setup script?
[07:32] <dholbach> halim61: oh - could you mail a link to that to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>?
[07:32] <heno> is that working at this point and is it at all useful?
[07:33] <mikepedersen> I haven't tried it.  SHould it work with a bluetooth display?
[07:33] <hittsjunk> Will it work with a serial display?
[07:33] <heno> should in theory work with both
[07:33] <krister> mikepedersen: i will try what you suggested and see if braille starts again or not with Orca.
[07:34] <heno> but you'll need to know what keys to press first
[07:34] <halim61> Yes I can but I must first subcribe to the list.
[07:34] <heno> might be worth reading the script in fact
[07:34] <mikepedersen> and those keys are?
[07:34] <dholbach> halim61: I can moderate the mail, if you don't want to be on the list - no problem.
[07:35] <heno> "Device type (b/s/u/x): "
[07:35] <heno> where b is bluetooth, s is serial, u is usb
[07:35] <heno> (x is exit)
[07:36] <mikepedersen> does the bluetooth display have to be paired first or will this be part of the setup?
[07:36] <heno> see /sbin/brltty-settup on a feisty system
[07:37] <heno> mikepedersen: that should be done in the setup
[07:37] <heno> id does: /lib/brltty/brltty.sh -b auto -d "bluetooth:$b_address"
[07:39] <mikepedersen> OK I just tried this I just need to enter the ID of the device I think
[07:40] <heno> right
[07:40] <heno> Anyway, this is very bleeding edge and could use some testing
[07:40] <mikepedersen> I'll test it today.
[07:41] <heno> We are trying to move the boundaries and sometimes we break stuff :)
[07:41] <heno> We shipped a broken GOK by default for two releases :-/
[07:41] <krister> Can i put in something for the wish list or is it off-topic?
[07:41] <heno> krister: go ahead
[07:43] <halim61> dholbach: you have mail
[07:43] <dholbach> halim61: gracias
[07:43] <krister> I'm somewhat of a fanatic when it comes to freedom of choice, that's why i am so interested in Linux. Now Evo is a very good email client, but i want to know if something could be done with Sylpheed-claws-gtk2? It seems like everything exept the folder- and message list tables are accessible...
[07:44] <krister> I can navigate in the program, but can't read msgs and lists.
[07:44] <halim61> hmm I am waiting for thunderbird support
[07:45] <heno> hm, we will have to focus on a few apps, which probably means evo and thunderbird
[07:45] <hittsjunk> I came late, sorry if this has already been discussed.  Are there plans for Firefox3 packages?
[07:45] <heno> krister: for sylpheed you should probably contact upstream directly
[07:46] <krister> Upstream?
[07:46] <dholbach> halim61: thanks again - I passed it on
[07:46] <heno> hittsjunk: I've spoken to the mozilla team about it
[07:46] <heno> krister: the authors of sylpheed
[07:46] <halim61> DHolbach: thanks.
[07:46] <heno> hittsjunk: no clear date yet though
[07:46] <robert_____> custom forms would be great if it worked with FK better :-/
[07:47] <robert_____> (sorry guys, wrong window)
[07:47] <heno> the focus is inevitably on Feisty (= Firefox2) ATM
[07:48] <hittsjunk> Firefox 2 is only usable with firevox
[07:48] <krister> heno: will do. Just wondered if this was something that the orca guys should check. Not so good at knowing whom to contact when. Still anewbie after 3 yrs of Linux.:-)
[07:49] <heno> krister: you can ask on the Orca list, but my guess is that it's a sylpheed problem
[07:49] <mikepedersen> Krister, we looked at it quite a while ago.  If you could get the developers to test with access tools this would show them a lot of the problems.
[07:49] <heno> have you tried running at-poke with it?
[07:50] <heno> exactly
[07:50] <mikepedersen> Blind people can't run atpoke because it is by design not an accessible application
[07:50] <heno> which is outrageous
[07:50] <hittsjunk> Exerciser is supposed to be an accessible replacement.  I haven't tried it yet.
[07:50] <heno> there is a new alternative out now though
[07:51] <mikepedersen> it does sound pretty good though.
[07:51] <mikepedersen> it is not a stand-alone app yet though.
[07:51] <heno> http://live.gnome.org/Accerciser
[07:53] <heno> dholbach: any chance we could make a .deb of that? ^
[07:53] <dholbach> I'll take a look at it.
[07:53] <heno> doesn't even need to be in the repos for feisty
[07:53] <heno> just somewhere people can grab it and test
[07:54] <dholbach> better to have it in the repos :)
[07:54] <heno> I spend 20-30 minutes trying to build it but gave up
[07:54] <mikepedersen> it hasn't yet been extracted into its own package yet I think it is still just part of LSR.
[07:54] <heno> dholbach: of course, yes :)
[07:55] <mikepedersen> I could be wrong about that though I'm just going by the release note.
[07:55] <heno> mikepedersen: ok, but we do have LSR in Universe right?
[07:55] <mikepedersen> think so
[07:56] <heno> yeah, found it
[07:56] <heno> launchpad drives me mad sometimes going in circles :-[
[07:57] <heno> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lsr
[07:58] <mikepedersen> it'll be nicer whhen it is its own package though so we can just run it when orca is running.
[07:59] <heno> mikepedersen: is it possible to run orca and lsr at the same time?
[07:59] <hittsjunk> No, youcan only run one at a time.
[07:59] <mikepedersen> I'm pretty sure you'd get lots and lots of conflicts with the keyuboard, speech, and braille
[08:02] <mikepedersen> remember though that orca already provides several ways to print out the application hierarchy.
[08:03] <mikepedersen> many people find this pretty useful for debugging an app as well.  I do however think that the accsersiser way looks pretty cool
[08:05] <mikepedersen> Henrik, do you have much more you want to cover?
[08:06] <krister> Is navigating the calendar in Evo considered a bug? It can be somewhat tricky finding ones way around in the different views and yet the calendar is said to be accessible.
[08:06] <heno> mikepedersen: no, I think we just need to follow up on some individual issues
[08:06] <mikepedersen> the only view I know of that really dosn't work to well is the month view.
[08:06] <mikepedersen> feel free to contact me about the braille stuff.
[08:07] <heno> krister: if it doesn't work as expected then that's a bug. If it's expected not to be accessible then that is *also* a bug
[08:07] <krister> Ok, i have tried the week view and the month view and i think i've got an incling of a hint on what is wrong though i'm no hacker.
[08:07] <heno> please file those, at least on stuff in main
[08:08] <mikepedersen> if you want, email me first and I can try to explain the evolution navigation model as it is a bit strange.
[08:08] <heno> krister: try filing a bug in the gnome bug tracker
[08:08] <heno> so the actual evo authors will read it
[08:09] <heno> We should generally be filing more accessibility bugs, and tagging them
[08:09] <krister> Ok i'll email you or could you please send me a little note about it to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:09] <heno> so we can quantify what the issues are
[08:09] <mikepedersen> OK
[08:09] <heno> ok, thanks everyone!
[08:09] <mikepedersen> bye for now
[08:10] <heno> I'm going to take a break now. This is my third straight meeting in a row ...
[08:10] <heno> (two previously by phone)
[08:10] <dholbach> i have accerciser nearly packaged :)
[08:11] <dholbach> I'll let it go through the approval process (as we're in freeze atm) and let you know once it's there :)
[08:47] <jonsd> quit
[09:02] <cbx33> w00t
[09:07] <ajmitch> cbx33: if the meeting is happening
[09:07] <tsmithe> cbx33, glad to hear edubuntu went relatively well and was accepted. (re blog post). i just wish my school would do the same
[09:08] <cbx33> tsmithe, heh
[09:08] <LaserJock> hmm, I was waiting for the ogra count-down
[09:08] <cbx33> yeh
[09:08] <cbx33> he said .... back after dinner for meeting
[09:11] <ajmitch> hi ogra
[09:11] <LaserJock> he's back!
[09:11] <ogra> sorry, i'm late, my system crashed ...
[09:11] <ogra> gimme a minute
[09:13] <ogra> so it seems will isnt here either today
[09:13] <ogra> RichEd is travelling and currently i london
[09:14] <ogra> so he wont be here either
[09:15] <ogra> before i start with the tech update i need to maken an announcement, rodrigo left the team and i'm currently working on the jobdscription for the position
[09:15] <cbx33> did he leave canonical completely?
[09:15] <ogra> yes
[09:15] <cbx33> or just edubuntu?
[09:15] <ogra> he had personal issues
[09:15] <LaserJock> :(
[09:16] <LaserJock> that's sad
[09:16] <ogra> since he didnt deliver anything i'm currently heavily working on a moodle1.7 package
[09:16] <cbx33> yikes
[09:16] <cbx33> anything we can do?
[09:18] <ogra> not really, help CD testing
[09:18] <cbx33> ok will do
[09:18] <cbx33> sorry ogra
[09:20] <ogra> anyway ... tech ...
[09:20] <ajmitch> ouch :(
[09:21] <ogra> i did the final spit of the CD stuff today
[09:22] <ogra> *split indeed :)
[09:22] <cbx33> hehe
[09:22] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/
[09:22] <ogra> take a look and dance :)
[09:22] <cbx33> whilst singing "Don;t feel like dancing"
[09:22] <ogra> (the other areches are not built currently but look similar)
[09:23] <ogra> so we have 120M spare on the server CD
[09:23] <ogra> in an argreement with heno the add-on CD will be filled up with winFoss as soon as its filled with langpacks
[09:23] <Mithrandir> ogra: I'm currently building herd 5 RC, fyi.
[09:23] <ogra> yay
[09:24] <Mithrandir> (which is why the current page might look a bit weird; I removed ppc from non-ports, etc, today)
[09:24] <ogra> guys ^^^^ thats the one you can start testing with once its built
[09:24] <cbx33> ok
[09:25] <ogra> apart from that i have not much on the tech side, i feel like i'm only travelling and building CDs atm ... every time i return home Mithrandir changes the topic of #ubuntu-devel to announce a freze :)
[09:25] <LaserJock> ok, so is there any plans to fill up space on the 1st CD?
[09:25] <LaserJock> or are we leaving that for future development
[09:26] <cbx33> ogra, I don;t mean to nag - but what are we doing with tcm?
[09:26] <ogra> so getting someone into rodrigos position to help CD building is a tad urgent since my travelling seems not to get less
[09:26] <cbx33> makes sense
[09:26] <cbx33> what kinda skills are required for CD building?
[09:26] <ogra> LaserJock, all i can  put on it ... and then langpacks ..
[09:27] <ogra> if i dont find anything and still have space i'll move stuff back from the add-on CD
[09:27] <LaserJock> did qcad make it on there?
[09:27] <ogra> oh, while testing, please also try to test the desktop CDs, they changed a lot to have the edu stuff which is not in -desktop on them ... i want to be sure it all works
[09:28] <ogra> LaserJock, after the herd release
[09:28] <cbx33> ogra, I'll try that out tomorrow if I can
[09:29] <ogra> cbx33, i'll put as much effort as i can into tcm as soon as the Cd is done ...
[09:29] <cbx33> ok....I'm not nagging honestly :p
[09:29] <LaserJock> is that it for tech?
[09:29] <ogra> do nag, please
[09:30] <cbx33> ogra, ok
[09:30] <cbx33> WORK ON TCM :p
[09:30] <ogra> its helpfu to get a reminder from time to time, even though TCM is written in big letters on my whiteboard now :)
[09:31] <ogra> (about 30cm high letters )
[09:31] <LaserJock> :-)
[09:31] <ogra> beyod tech, RichEd were on a nice get together of european educators last week ...
[09:32] <ogra> and since there was a barcamp around the corner we even held a talk there :)
[09:32] <ogra> that made it into the local newspaper :) http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/oli-ancona-0207.jpg
[09:32] <ogra> :D
[09:32] <cbx33> nice
[09:32] <cbx33> :)
[09:33] <ogra> and elkbuntu wrote a very nice article http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/02/20/197251
[09:33] <ogra> LaserJock, likewise *g*
[09:34] <ogra> there was a guy with a videocam who also did an 20min interview with us he'll put it on his blog once its cut
[09:34] <cbx33> awesome
[09:34] <ogra> thats it from my side for today
[09:35] <LaserJock> Well, I managed to get rasmol and qcad into Main
[09:35] <LaserJock> some apps on my list aren't so easy
[09:35] <ogra> rasmol is on the add-on CD already
[09:35] <LaserJock> but next I'm going to try octave
[09:35] <LaserJock> which needs lam, mpich, hdf5, gnuplot from Universe
[09:36] <cbx33> heh
[09:36] <ogra> qcad came in right after a seed change and waits for tenext one (i'm not shuffling the seeds while in freeze)
[09:36] <LaserJock> so that would be 5 MIRs to get octave
[09:36] <ogra> s/tenext/the next/
[09:36] <ogra> gnuplot alone would already be awesome
[09:36] <LaserJock> yes, I agree
[09:37] <LaserJock> gnuplot + emacs where my first science tools in Linux
[09:37] <ogra> if you talk to ian or pitti abou the MIRs try to prioritize it and its deps
[09:37] <ogra> *shudder* emacs
[09:37] <ogra> we have space for it now :)
[09:37] <LaserJock> so far pitti has been simply awesome about them
[09:37] <ogra> and we can re-add the full vim
[09:38] <LaserJock> another space eater I could try is stellarium
[09:38] <cbx33> just don't try celestia
[09:38] <ogra> if you have any suggestions for the first CD please make them ... we have all of main available to improve the under the hood stuff
[09:39] <ogra> doesnt stellarium have an awful amount of deps ?
[09:39] <LaserJock> it could, but I think it might be OK
[09:39] <LaserJock> cbx33: got your script handy?
[09:39] <cbx33> yeh
[09:40] <cbx33> you can grab it from my repo :p
[09:40] <LaserJock> well, I'm just not on a fiesty machine ATM
[09:40] <cbx33> it's edgy repo
[09:40] <LaserJock> I'm on OS X
[09:40] <cbx33> ahh
[09:40] <cbx33> ok
[09:40] <cbx33> um
[09:40] <LaserJock> anyway, I think I'll do octave and edubuntu-docs first
[09:41] <LaserJock> ogra: it looks like all the deps are in Main to me
[09:41] <ogra> ah, k
[09:42] <ogra> is the new edubuntu-docs package up already ?
[09:42] <LaserJock> it will be today
[09:42] <ogra> i cant remember seeing it hitting universe
[09:42] <ogra> ah, k
[09:42] <LaserJock> nixternal and I have been thrashing it out
[09:42] <LaserJock> making sure it plays well with ubuntu-docs
[09:42] <ogra> you guys rock :)
[09:42] <LaserJock> I'll upload it to Universe today
[09:42] <ogra> great :)
[09:42] <LaserJock> and go over the MIR and poke pitti when I have a chance
[09:42] <cbx33> looks like the book chapter moving forward too
[09:43] <cbx33> LaserJock, what pacakge you want me to check?
[09:43] <LaserJock> stellarium
[09:43] <ogra> stellarium
[09:43] <heno> Sorry to but in (but I saw my nick mentioned above). Here is a screen grab of the winfoss browser, wip: http://people.ubuntu.com/~henrik/images/edubuntu-winfoss-wip.png
[09:43] <cbx33> stellarium: Not in main
[09:43] <cbx33> stellarium-data: Not in main
[09:43] <cbx33> looks like all it's deps are in main
[09:44] <ogra> heno, sexy
[09:44] <cbx33> don't quote me on it....but it's looking good
[09:44] <LaserJock> so maybe I'll try to do stellarium quickly too
[09:44] <LaserJock> depends on bugginess
[09:44] <cbx33> yeh
[09:44] <LaserJock> I know bddebian and I have done a bit of work on it
[09:44] <heno> yeah, I opted for Celesetia over Stelarium since its in main
[09:44] <ogra> sounds like a good candidate though
[09:44] <ogra> oh, wait, celestia is in main ?
[09:44] <LaserJock> I enjoyed testing it out when I was fixing a bug
[09:44] <heno> we have it on the OpenCD
[09:45] <cbx33> ogra, no it's not
[09:45] <cbx33> it;s not in main is it?
[09:45] <ogra> ah, k
[09:45] <heno> ah, my bad
[09:45] <cbx33> it has like 1,000,000 deps that are not in main
[09:45] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~$ apt-cache madison celestia
[09:45] <ogra>   celestia | 1.3.2-4ubuntu1 | http://de.archive.ubuntu.com feisty/universe Packages
[09:45] <ogra>   celestia | 1.4.1-0ubuntu2 | http://archive.ubuntu.com feisty/universe Sources
[09:45] <cbx33> hehe
[09:46] <LaserJock> heno: how much space does that take?
[09:46] <LaserJock> the Edubuntu OpenCD
[09:46] <heno> they are each 17-18 mb
[09:46] <cbx33> (feisty-ch)pete@misato:~$ ./404main celestia | wc
[09:46] <cbx33>      23      92     580
[09:46] <heno> oh, about 147mb total ATM
[09:46] <LaserJock> cool
[09:47] <heno> I would upload a tarball, but it still has lots of broken links and missing text
[09:47] <ogra> amd64 currently uses 209M ... i386 likewise
[09:48] <ogra> so we're at 360M ...
[09:48] <ogra> still only 50%
[09:49] <ogra> hmm, sad pitti is gone already
[09:49] <LaserJock> stellarium is something like 18MB
[09:49] <ogra> i'd like to know the langpack size in total for all langpacks
[09:50] <ogra> i wonder if its more than 100M
[09:50] <LaserJock> I think octave will be about the same size as stellarium
[09:50] <LaserJock> well, I guess maybe more with all the deps
[09:50] <ogra> sounds good
[09:51] <LaserJock> I happy with it
[09:51] <LaserJock> I was just afraid we'd have 701 MB total between the 2 CDs ;-)
[09:51] <LaserJock> there's no harm in leaving room to grow
[09:52] <ogra> right
[09:55] <ogra> hmm, we didnt really stick to the agenda today
[09:55] <cbx33> no
[09:55] <cbx33> artwork
[09:55] <cbx33> ?
[09:55] <ogra> docs are packaged ...
[09:55] <ogra> not artwork ?
[09:55] <cbx33> eh?
[09:55] <cbx33> whats next on the agenda
[09:55] <cbx33> is what I meant
[09:55] <ogra> right artwork i would think unless there is more doc stuff
[09:56] <ogra> flint !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
[09:56] <cbx33> ogra can you confirm what kwwii is doing artwork wise for edubuntu
[09:56] <cbx33> hey flint
[09:56] <flint> Hey Oliver, I have been buzy sorry for my absence...
[09:56] <ogra> not much, but i stopped nagging recently
[09:56] <flint> hello all!
[09:56] <ogra> flint, great to see you
[09:56] <flint> ogra, thanks buddy.
[09:56] <flint> whatsup?
[09:56] <cbx33> ogra, ok, we'll nag
[09:56] <cbx33> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuArtwork/Palette
[09:57] <ogra> i think his plan is to have an overall similar look of SVGs where he just has to adjust the colors
[09:58] <ogra> for ubuntu kubuntu and edubuntu
[09:58] <cbx33> right
[09:58] <cbx33> for wallpaper too?
[09:58] <ogra> cbx33, i like all of these wallpapers, but i fear we need something more neutral as default ... like the currentl one ..
[09:58] <juliux> evening
[09:59] <cbx33> you mean the one i did?
[09:59] <cbx33> hey juliux
[09:59] <ogra> i'ts up to us to keep kwwii's stuff or modify parts i think
[09:59] <LaserJock> I think it'd be great in the long run if we had several themes and had a good theme manager
[09:59] <ogra> yeah, the current edgy default
[09:59] <ogra> we have a good theme manager
[09:59] <ogra> the one we ship is fine ... the themes need adjustment ...
[10:00] <LaserJock> but you can easily switch metacity/gdm/gtk/wallpaper from a GUI can you?
[10:00] <LaserJock> *can't
[10:00] <LaserJock> don't you run a dpkg-reconfigure or something?
[10:00] <ogra> you can minus gdm
[10:00] <cbx33> hehe
[10:01] <LaserJock> yes, I guess that is true
[10:01] <ogra> the theme engine offers metathemes, with icons, metacity, gtk, wallpaper
[10:01] <ogra> our metathemes were never bound to a wallpaper ... but thats a trivial gconf change
[10:01] <LaserJock> do we have a set for each of the young/middle school/high school or uni ?
[10:02] <ogra> gdm needs admin privs
[10:02] <ogra> no
[10:02] <cbx33> we currently just have new wallpapers for each
[10:02] <ogra> we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuArtwork/Palette
[10:02] <ogra> but i would like to have optical variations between the themes ...
[10:03] <ogra> the manga theme is nice, but not for all themes
[10:03] <cbx33> would be nice
[10:03] <cbx33> true
[10:03] <LaserJock> seems like we need to do better with the "total packaging"
[10:03] <ogra> the desktop should noticeable change if you select a different age group, but still be recognized as edubuntu $release
[10:03] <LaserJock> right
[10:04] <cbx33> yeh
[10:04] <LaserJock> hmm, it'd be interesting if you could set a theme
[10:04] <LaserJock> *then* set age
[10:05] <cbx33> yeh
[10:05] <cbx33> u see....this is what ubrander was going to help with
[10:05] <cbx33> EASY theme building for ubuntu
[10:05] <ogra> was ?
[10:06] <cbx33> i never got started on it....no one really showed enough interest
[10:06] <cbx33> but if you think it's worth it...I'll take another look at it
[10:06] <cbx33> it was going to allow people to create an entire package of artwork
[10:06] <ajmitch> it could be useful
[10:06] <cbx33> themes could be shared easily
[10:06] <ajmitch> unlike my code :)
[10:06] <LaserJock> :p
[10:06] <cbx33> hah...yeh right ajmitch
[10:07] <cbx33> it was gonna have a nice previes window as well
[10:07] <cbx33> dynamically updaing etc
[10:07] <LaserJock> first things first though
[10:07] <cbx33> indeed
[10:08] <LaserJock> we should have 3 complete themes for fiesty, right?
[10:08] <LaserJock> or rather 1 theme with 3 age variations
[10:08] <ogra> cbx33, there exists a mail from me in the ubuntu.devel archive with a call for developers to write such a tool ... a very old mail ...
[10:08] <cbx33> hehe
[10:08] <ogra> would be awesome to hev it
[10:08] <ogra> *have
[10:08] <cbx33> well.....maybe I'll get on it
[10:08] <ogra> first TCM :P
[10:08] <cbx33> of course
[10:08] <LaserJock> I want it so I can make a "branded" .iso for my department
[10:08] <cbx33> well i have updates in the bzr
[10:09] <cbx33> i need you to look at them.....and see about that UGLY hack i made
[10:09] <ogra> yeah
[10:09] <cbx33> i think it's gonna make you physically sick :p
[10:10] <ogra> i'll get a vaccination in advance then :)
[10:10] <ajmitch> ogra: I'd love to hear from you later about your pam problems :)
[10:11] <ogra> ajmitch, no problems, but a decision that the curret mechanism is to bad and needs to be replaced by something proper
[10:11] <ogra> well, and some pam mount issues with ssh
[10:13] <ogra> i want a proper spec and want to have an implementation plan for something that doesnt suck as much after sevilla
[10:13] <ogra> anyway, back on track
[10:13] <ogra> was that all about art ?
[10:14] <cbx33> yes
[10:14] <ogra> Community & Documentation & Web
[10:14] <ogra> any news here from anyone ?
[10:14] <ogra> doesnt look like
[10:14] <LaserJock> well
[10:15] <LaserJock> all I know is that ubuntu.com will be updated soon
[10:15] <LaserJock> and then we might get more education stuff on there
[10:15] <cbx33> nice
[10:15] <ogra> pips1 was working on something with will, wasnt he ?
[10:15] <LaserJock> will did some work on the Handbook
[10:15] <LaserJock> ogra: yeah, I think so
[10:15] <LaserJock> I think there's been some discussion/debate with the website team about how to exactly handle stuff
[10:16] <LaserJock> but I think it's moving forward
[10:16] <cbx33> awesome
[10:16] <LaserJock> there is still a lot of work to be done on the Handbook
[10:16] <LaserJock> so if anybody wants to jump in let nixternal know
[10:16] <LaserJock> but I think we'll be shipping edubuntu-docs with Feisty
[10:16] <ogra> i'd love to but i would have to take holidays for it ...
[10:16] <cbx33> hehehaha
[10:16] <LaserJock> heh
[10:17] <LaserJock> well, what we can do is basically drop the sections that don't get done and smooth it out
[10:17] <LaserJock> then add them back in for Feisty+1
[10:17] <LaserJock> I think it's important to get stuff out there
[10:17] <ogra> i think there is a lot of stuff already so that would be a good last resort
[10:17] <LaserJock> even if it's isn't so comprehensive
[10:17] <ogra> right
[10:18] <LaserJock> I think we might gain contributors simply by shipping the thing
[10:18] <ogra> yewp
[10:18] <cbx33> true
[10:19] <LaserJock> we can hammer the team looking for contributors
[10:19] <LaserJock> but I think most people aware of it are already strapped
[10:19] <LaserJock> we need to get it to new blood :-)
[10:20] <ogra> yep ... schools :)
[10:20] <LaserJock> yes, once people can start filing bugs and sending feedback to -devel or -users it'll certainly help
[10:20] <cbx33> ogra, what can my YouthLUG do to help?
[10:21] <ogra> playing with edubuntu and improving the missing docs during that ?
[10:21] <ogra> i.e. find weaknesses
[10:21] <stelis> FWIW, I wrote the draft Quickstart Guide to be shippable as is.
[10:22] <stelis> i.e. just add screenshots and it could go.
[10:23] <ogra> LaserJock, is that in edubuntu-docs already ?
[10:23] <LaserJock> I don't think so
[10:23] <LaserJock> we have About Edubuntu, Release Notes, Handbook, and School Advocacy
[10:23] <ogra> http://www.elsn.org/downloads/edubuntu/drafts/edubuntu-quickstart.html#installing-clients
[10:24] <cbx33> LaserJock, there should be Student Control Panel
[10:24] <LaserJock> cbx33: ?
[10:24] <stelis> willvdl was going to look at integrating it into his Handbook work
[10:24] <ogra> cbx33, isnt that shipped with SCP ?
[10:24] <cbx33> yes i was asked to do some for the handbook too
[10:25] <ogra> ah
[10:25] <LaserJock> stelis: did you write that from scratch or did you grab it from somewhere?
[10:25] <stelis> I wrote it all
[10:26] <LaserJock> wow, ok
[10:26] <stelis> The layout is inspired a bit by a page on the Website
[10:26] <stelis> I was going to put a "Managing" section in
[10:26] <LaserJock> well, I don't think we should add more docs to the edubuntu-docs package right now
[10:26] <cbx33> hehe
[10:27] <LaserJock> but it'd be good to get that integrated on the Handbook
[10:27] <LaserJock> s/on/in
[10:27] <LaserJock> I also think stuff like that is great for the website
[10:28] <stelis> I'm really just trying to get some content out there, so I don't mind reworking the format
[10:29] <LaserJock> stelis: just make sure nixternal and will know about your stuff and they should help you with that
[10:29] <LaserJock> I'm just the packaging peon
[10:30] <stelis> Laserjock: we talked about it briefly the meeting before last, so we've made contact
[10:31] <stelis> But haven't get a plan as such
[10:31] <LaserJock> good news indeed
[10:31] <stelis> get > got
[10:31] <LaserJock> ok
[10:31] <LaserJock> I'm not sure when we'll really stop taking doc content for Feisty
[10:32] <LaserJock> the Doc String Freeze is March 8th
[10:32] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if Edubuntu docs will necessarily have to stick to that rigidly
[10:32] <ogra> i dont think so ...
[10:33] <ogra> i personally am happy to slip that date for edubuntu if possible
[10:34] <LaserJock> it's mostly for translation time
[10:34] <LaserJock> but I'm guessing Edubuntu won't get translated too much this time around
[10:34] <ogra> right
[10:35] <ogra> we have to start somewhere ...
[10:36] <ogra> ok, is that it for docs
[10:36] <ogra> ?
[10:37] <LaserJock> I think so
[10:38] <ogra> ok
[10:38] <ogra> i dont think there is anything i can say about management atm ...
[10:38] <ogra> so any other business ?
[10:39] <ogra> going once
[10:39] <ogra> going twice
[10:39] <ogra> ...
[10:39] <ogra> adjourned
[10:39] <ogra> thanks all
[11:21] <shawarma> Wow... Slow meeting.
[11:24] <steve_jbs> No meeting today?
[11:25] <steve_jbs> Unless I have the time wrong... wouldn't be the first time I counted the timezones the wrong way around
[11:27] <shawarma> You can ask the bot.
[11:27] <shawarma> @schedule Copenhagen
[11:27] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: Current meeting: Xubuntu | 01 Mar 16:00: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting | 01 Mar 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Mar 19:00: Mozilla Team
[11:28] <shawarma> Like so.
[11:28] <steve_jbs> Wow, thanks... that will come in handy!
[11:29] <steve_jbs> @schedule Toronto
[11:29] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: Current meeting: Xubuntu | 01 Mar 10:00: Community Question Time in #ubuntu-meeting | 01 Mar 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Mar 11:00: Kernel Team | 06 Mar 13:00: Mozilla Team
[11:59] <SpudDogg> #ubuntu-nun