[00:37] <Ahmuck_> nubae: sugar labs == sugar ?
[01:17] <Ahmuck_> highvoltage: upstream issues solved via ltsp - sound, etc.  i need to work through ltsp?  on 8.10 it worked on 9.04 i lost it
[01:27] <Ahmuck_> nubae: is there a sugar package available for ubuntu?
[01:35] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: yes, they're in Ubuntu
[01:38] <Ahmuck_> i'd suggest picking a new name for sabayon if possible.  it's confusing with the linux distro
[01:46] <LaserJock> it's not ours to rename
[01:46] <LaserJock> it's a Gnome project
[01:46] <LaserJock> and existed before the linux distro even :-)
[01:47] <Ahmuck_> ah
[01:48] <Ahmuck_> i'm surprised they haven't laid claim to the name via trademark and forced saybayon Linux to change their name
[01:51] <LaserJock> well, there isn't much of a project left
[01:51] <LaserJock> so it'd be a bit weird
[02:00] <Ahmuck_> is stgraber the only one working on it?
[02:00] <LaserJock> on what?
[02:02] <Ahmuck_> saybayon
[02:02] <Ahmuck_> er, maybe not him
[02:03] <sbalneav> Ahmuck_: I'm working on it
[02:03] <sbalneav> I'm looking at their latest release now.
[02:03] <sbalneav> which they released, broken
[02:04] <sbalneav> They made a release that they freely admit doesn't work out of the box
[02:06] <sbalneav> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/sabayon-list/2009-March/msg00000.html
[02:06] <sbalneav> Please note that this release is KNOWN TO BE BROKEN.  At some point
[02:06] <sbalneav> Sabayon stopped detecting all the changes you do to files while editing
[02:06] <sbalneav> a user profile.  The result is that sabayon-2.25.0 saves mostly empty
[02:06] <sbalneav> user profiles.  Help in debugging this is much appreciated.
[02:07] <sbalneav> Sigh
[02:08] <Ahmuck_> i'd help debug it ... i need about a month to get things running here
[02:09] <Ahmuck_> actually let me re-phrase that
[02:09] <sbalneav> Well, I'm going to try creating an updated package for it, then figure out why it doesn't work
[02:09] <Ahmuck_> i'm going to drop back to a stable release of ltsp
[02:09] <Ahmuck_> then use virtual box to debug stuff in
[02:09] <sbalneav> Which are you running?
[02:10] <Ahmuck_> specifically i'm going to create a vm environment and then add packages and debug the packages as i go and create user docs
[02:10] <Ahmuck_> which means i'm in for the long haul
[02:10] <sbalneav> I guess my question is, what's NOT stable about LTSP for you?
[02:11] <Ahmuck_> currently i'm using freemind to organize my thoughts, but may find a wiki and host it and lay it out from there
[02:11] <Ahmuck_> volume control
[02:11] <Ahmuck_> user shuts off volume, it shuts down volume for me
[02:11] <Ahmuck_> web based flash apps
[02:12] <Ahmuck_> things like pbskids.org, etc
[02:12] <Ahmuck_> thankfully hplip was fixed in 9.04
[02:13] <Ahmuck_> system wide messages, yes, someone's pointed this out to me that i could fix something and i suppose all the typing i'm doing on irc could be devoted to getting it fixed, but by defualt, system wide messages shouldn't be showing up on every thin client.  what's printed, etc.
[02:13] <sbalneav> So one user changes their volume settings, and it affects everyone?
[02:13] <Ahmuck_> if need be, i can join ltsp channel and state the same
[02:13] <Ahmuck_> sbalneav: yep
[02:14] <Ahmuck_> though i've not tested it completely.  i'm really strapped for time right now
[02:14] <sbalneav> So am I.  You want help on or not?
[02:14] <sbalneav> \I'm here now, and willing to help
[02:15] <Ahmuck_> well, yes i need help, but i've got things i have to do right now :(
[02:15] <sbalneav> As for system wide messages, do you mean the notifier app?
[02:19] <Ahmuck_> hrm, i've not looked at it yet.  could be.  ie, HPLIP Device Status, ... printing (doc name).
[02:22] <Ahmuck_> i've not looked back, but someone mentioned a 400 page doc on ltsp/edubuntu ?
[02:30] <Ahmuck_> just looked at moodle.  it's interesting
[04:37] <Ahmuck_> sbalneav: volume slider bar does not work at all ... at the server ... i need to do more testing
[08:56] <nubae> Ahmuck though there is a package for sugar in Ubuntu, its older than molasses ;-)
[08:56] <Ahmuck_> is there a way to build from source?
[08:56]  * Ahmuck_ nudges nubae
[14:52] <sbalneav> Morning all
[16:50] <bencrisford1> Hey everyone :)
[17:35]  * bencrisford2 gonna get fixing edubuntu bugs!
[18:02] <Svenstaro> good luck brave one
[18:04] <bencrisford1> :P
[18:05]  * bencrisford1 gives up
[18:05] <bencrisford1> :(
[18:13] <nubae> sigh....
[18:44] <Ahmuck_> i forget, whose working on sayabon?
[18:45] <nubae> that would be sbalneav
[18:45] <nubae> Ahmuck_ so u are interested in Sugar eh? Can I introduce you to the sugar team? join #sugar
[18:46] <Ahmuck_> sbalneav: i'm interested in knowing if sayabon is worth saving and why it's worth saving.  i've heard it's overly complex and perhaps should be scraped in favor for something else
[18:59] <Ahmuck_> meeting today?
[19:00] <nubae> tomorrow I believe
[19:01] <sbalneav> Ahmuck_: Sabayon's definitely worth saving
[19:01] <sbalneav> It's not overly complex
[19:02] <sbalneav> and there *is* nothing else.
[19:02] <sbalneav> Sabayon simply pops up a "desktop in a window" and lets you customize it.
[19:02] <sbalneav> You can save that "desktop" as a profile that you can apply to users.
[19:02] <Ahmuck_> i've heard horror stories about the complexity of the code.  i wondered if it would be easier to write a basic module from srcatch, say python and gtk or qt and then allow managment plugin/addons similar to firefox
[19:03] <sbalneav> That's *exactly* what sabayon is.
[19:03] <sbalneav> It's written in python
[19:03] <sbalneav> has a plugin architechture
[19:04] <Ahmuck_> ah
[19:04] <Ahmuck_> see, i know nothing
[19:04]  * Ahmuck_ finds a something to crawl under
[19:04] <sbalneav> http://projects.gnome.org/sabayon/
[19:05] <sbalneav> We've got a broken wheel.
[19:05] <sbalneav> We just need to FIX the wheel we've got, not re-invent it. :)
[19:05] <sbalneav> IMHO anyway
[19:06] <sbalneav> I'm working on updating the package now to the 2.25 release of sabayon.
[19:06] <sbalneav> I
[19:06] <sbalneav> I'm going to try to figure out my notes, see if I can get it up to my ppa
[19:08] <sbalneav> There's also this spec:
[19:08] <sbalneav> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuUserManagement
[19:09] <sbalneav> Getting system-tools-backend "ldapified" is somewhat non-trivial
[19:09] <sbalneav> Here's the problem when you deal with ANYTHING ldap related
[19:09] <sbalneav> there's about 6.723749837x10^654 different ways to lay out your ldap directory
[19:10] <sbalneav> You can do a flat, "old style" method: i.e. cn=John Smith,o=Some Organization,c=ca
[19:11] <sbalneav> You can do the newer "dc" method: i.e. cn=John Smith,dc=legalaid,dc=mb,dc=ca
[19:12] <nubae> yeah, opensuse uses pre-set policies
[19:12] <sbalneav> You can also used the "somewhat" standard ou (organizational units) to group your entities, i.e. uid=sbalneav,ou=users,dc=legalaid,dc=mb,dc=ca
[19:12] <nubae> standards for samba I believe
[19:12] <nubae> right
[19:12] <sbalneav> riiiiiiiiiight
[19:12] <sbalneav> Key here is "pre-set policies"
[19:12] <sbalneav> How skolelinux did(does) it, is they have two installation modes
[19:13] <sbalneav> "desktop" and "directory server"
[19:13] <sbalneav> In directory server mode, they set you up an ldap server
[19:13] <sbalneav> they don't provide AD integration
[19:13] <sbalneav> they don't let you pick your own schema
[19:13] <sbalneav> they don't give you ANY option
[19:14] <sbalneav> They GIVE you a layout, and you plug your users into it.
[19:14] <sbalneav> and it works, because they have a KNOWN entity to work against.
[19:14] <nubae> yep
[19:14] <nubae> thats what opensuse does too, they pick your schema for you
[19:14] <nubae> well u are given some options
[19:14] <nubae> like use samba, use ldap with postfix, etc
[19:14] <nubae> but very few options
[19:15] <sbalneav> The problem I (and others) have always had with trying to get ldap into edubuntu is that the server guys always want to support everything
[19:15] <nubae> which is just fine
[19:15] <nubae> yeah well
[19:15] <sbalneav> I think if we WANT to implement SOMETHING, we need to
[19:15] <nubae> do the concerns of users or ubuntu server come first?
[19:16] <nubae> well, every major distro has a half decent user management system
[19:16] <nubae> opensuse and fedora both have very nice and working user managment systems
[19:16] <nubae> ours just sucks
[19:16] <sbalneav> 1) pick a use case (edubuntu servers authenticating against an ldap schema, no ad, no samba, nice and simple)
[19:16] <nubae> plain and simple
[19:16] <sbalneav> well, yeah
[19:16] <sbalneav> because THEY have picked a schema, and stuck with it
[19:16] <nubae> but.... both fedora and opensuse use their own tools
[19:16] <nubae> nothing standard
[19:16] <nubae> yep
[19:16] <nubae> but thats better than doing nothing
[19:16] <sbalneav> that's what we need to do.
[19:17] <sbalneav> the gnome user tools wouldn't be bad, if they did ldap
[19:17] <sbalneav> but they CAN'T do ldap until we pick a schema style we're going to code against
[19:18] <nubae> or a set of them
[19:18] <sbalneav> Well sure
[19:18] <nubae> ie... we look at the possibilities
[19:18] <nubae> there is plain ldap for authentication
[19:18] <nubae> ldap +samba for authentication and windows support
[19:18] <nubae> ldap+samba+postfix for authentication, file management, and mail
[19:19] <nubae> and then even things like ldap+samba+postfix+moodle
[19:19] <nubae> we have to choose where to limit ourselves
[19:19] <nubae> of course these schemas ARE standaradised
[19:19] <nubae> so it should be a matter of just picking them
[19:20] <sbalneav> And I'd say, for a start, we pick JUST plain ldap authentication, get it implemented and working, then we can branch out from there.
[19:22] <sbalneav> Go with the uid=blah,ou=users,dc=... for users
[19:22] <sbalneav> and gid=blah,ou=groups,dc= blah for groups
[19:22] <nubae> maybe ldap+samba would make more sense
[19:22] <nubae> so that u kill 2 birds with 1 stone
[19:23] <nubae> after all its likely there will be windows and osx clients in the schools too
[19:23] <sbalneav> I'm not familiar with the samba side of ldap, since I don't support any windows.
[19:23] <nubae> sbalneav: have u ever looked at sugar?
[19:23] <nubae> the window manager?
[19:23] <sbalneav> No
[19:24] <nubae> might I suggest u do so... its an amazing project... absolutely incredible in what it can do and what its intentions are
[19:24] <sbalneav> I know it's used by OLPC, and I've seen it once or twice, but I've never tried it personally.
[19:24] <nubae> the community is incredible, and you'll find some of the best coders on the planet working on it... its similar in that way to ltsp
[19:25] <sbalneav> You're talking to a guy who thinks the pinnacle of desktop environments was reached with twm, and it's been downhill ever since :)
[19:25] <sbalneav> I can have a look
[19:25] <nubae> well then u'll love sugar
[19:25] <sbalneav> jaunty packages?
[19:25] <nubae> its based on matchbox
[19:25] <nubae> well thats the thing
[19:26] <nubae> we're desperately looking for sugar packagers
[19:26] <nubae> I package it for opensuse
[19:26] <nubae> so I dont do it for ubuntu
[19:26] <nubae> but... u can download images and run in a vm for Fedora, Mandriva or openSUSE
[19:26] <nubae> I suggest the Sugar on a stick
[19:26] <Svenstaro> Packaging is kinda easy, though, do you only need packagers?
[19:27] <nubae> its the best implementation outside of Sugar right now
[19:27] <nubae> no, we need all kinds of people Svenstaro
[19:27] <nubae> please join #sugar if you are interested
[19:28] <nubae> I dont want to canabolise edubuntu, the 2 projects can coexist... though sugar is more upstream and has a more stable working community :-)
[19:28] <nubae> grin
[19:29] <nubae> some of the things sugar does is it makes collaboration (like what abiword or google docs does) work with every application
[19:29] <nubae> so kids can collaboratively learn, and the idea of files has been replaced by something called a journal
[19:30] <nubae> which contains an entry for everything the student/teacher does in the environment
[19:30] <Ahmuck_> why support everything.  this goes back to what i was saying before.  pick the battles, and win those.  let the bystanders figure out their own mess
[19:31] <nubae> we are currently incorporating the idea of achievements/medals for activities... so for example, if u collaborated with 5 people on something u'd get the collaboration award
[19:31] <Ahmuck_> i think i would adpt ldap+samba etc.
[19:31] <Ahmuck_> i think you need windows support
[19:31] <nubae> anyway..... its all very exciting
[19:32] <Ahmuck_> nubae: is there support for getting the bugs worked out on ubuntu 9.04 ?
[19:33] <nubae> for sugar u mean?
[19:33] <nubae> they are pretty much waiting for debian policy
[19:33] <nubae> so no
[19:33] <nubae> it was either fork from debian or wait on them, and unfortunately, the debian maintainer is not the easiest person in the world to talk to
[19:34] <nubae> alkisg: aren't u up for helping in sugarlabs?
[19:34] <alkisg> nubae: sorry, I've never used it
[19:35] <nubae> then please do so! :-) you'll be pleasantly surprised
[19:35] <sbalneav> Ahmuck_: see, I'd go the opposite way.  I personally don't want windows support, because if we try to "sort of support" windows, we need proper AD integration.
[19:35] <nubae> I believe its been totally translated to greek
[19:35] <alkisg> nubae: I'll give it a try in the summer
[19:35] <nubae> sbalneav: well the thing is, the other distros do samba support :-/
[19:36] <sbalneav> What, so we have to then?
[19:36] <nubae> ok, we could use productive people like yourself, and its a truly amazing community
[19:36] <nubae> afraid so yeah
[19:36] <nubae> if we dont want to keep loosing people to other distros
[19:36] <Ahmuck_> sbalneav: the problem with not having windows support, is that if your truly want ubuntu-ltsp+edubuntu theme in the classroom, your going to be working with mixed environments
[19:36] <nubae> its unfortunate there is competition within the distro scene
[19:37] <Ahmuck_> LDAP + AD gives you the options to migrate entirely at a later date to LDAP only
[19:37] <nubae> well ldap is AD
[19:37] <nubae> u mean ldap + samba
[19:37] <nubae> AD is a type of LDAP
[19:37] <Ahmuck_> er, yes
[19:37] <sbalneav> Is that a goal of ours?  Not "losing people to other distros"?
[19:37] <Ahmuck_> AD is a type, but it's not LDAP
[19:37] <Ahmuck_> sbalneav: not loosing market share to windows should be a goal
[19:38] <nubae> well, I would want to make our distro as 'good' as possible and that means making damn sure we have just as good and useful features as other distros
[19:38] <Ahmuck_> anybody not looking at market share regardless if it's a gpl project or proprietary is not doing smart thinking
[19:38] <nubae> its the reason people used ubuntu up to now... the best LTSP 5.0 impementation
[19:38] <nubae> but now thats changing, we are losing people
[19:39] <sbalneav> Ahmuck_: I realize that.  but, as I keep saying, we don't have enough people to do *everything*.  I've always advocated picking a very simple use case and getting it *right*.  Our problem is we keep widening the scope, getting nothing accomplished, rather than picking one SIMPLE thing, and getting it done.
[19:39] <nubae> Fedora, Debian and openSUSE all caught up, and they have elements in their distros that make them slightly better than ubuntu right now
[19:40] <sbalneav> OK, and?
[19:40] <nubae> we need to catch up to them now
[19:40] <sbalneav> If they're superior, they win
[19:40] <sbalneav> no. we. don't.
[19:40] <nubae> no... we just need to catch up
[19:40] <nubae> hmmm, well we do if dont want ubuntu to go the way of the dinosaur...
[19:40] <sbalneav> We need to get something, ANYTHING working.
[19:40] <nubae> sorry edubuntu
[19:42] <sbalneav> If we could come out with a simple use case THAT WORKED, i.e. you have "edubuntu+nfs for home dirs+ldap working+user tools working against that+working sabayon" that'd be a huge step forward.
[19:43] <sbalneav> if we keep widening the scope, we never get anything accomplished, becayse the work then becomes too big for the small number of devs we have.
[19:43] <sbalneav> imho
[19:43] <sbalneav> anywho, I'm talking here, and that's not going to get sabayon working.
[19:44] <sbalneav> afk, trying to get sabayon 2.25 compiled.
[19:44] <Ahmuck_> sbalneav: do the quick thing then, ur right
[19:44] <Ahmuck_> see, i believe in the turtle
[19:45] <Ahmuck_> if it's done right, then waiting a bit is ok
[19:45] <Ahmuck_> and i believe eating elephants one bite at a time
[19:45] <sbalneav> Well ok then.
[19:46] <sbalneav> I know how to handle ldap+simple auth, because I do it around here.
[19:46] <sbalneav> You want to work on the samba+ad part?
[19:46] <Ahmuck_> who has the docs?  i'd like to take a look at the work that has been done.  i'm working through a vm and am going to be screenshoting screen by screen and documenting every step
[19:47] <sbalneav> Desktop docs? Or LTSP docs?
[19:47] <sbalneav> http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
[19:47] <sbalneav> That't the LTSP docs at the current moment
[19:48] <sbalneav> the ltsp docs used to be part of the edubuntu handbook
[19:48] <sbalneav> nubae split them out, and he and I brought them up to date.
[19:49] <sbalneav> the idea would be to have them included somehow as a chapter in the edubuntu handbook
[19:49] <Ahmuck_> edubuntu have it's own docs?
[19:49] <sbalneav> they, the edubuntu-docs package, I beleiev
[19:49] <sbalneav> which is the edubuntu-handbook
[19:49] <sbalneav> A large part of the handbook is ltsp docs
[19:50] <Ahmuck_> ok. i'm going to work through both then
[19:50] <Ahmuck_> and see how well i can follow them
[19:50] <sbalneav> they could be yanked, and links could be provided to them if someone packaged up the ltsp docs
[19:50] <sbalneav> they could be linked through a yelp link.
[19:51] <Ahmuck_> anywho, because i'm interested in saybayon, i'm going to let you be.  btw, what r other distros using for user management?
[19:51] <Lns> If it helps, one other person and I are developing/picking up where ogra's "LTSP Manager" and "Thin-Client-Manager" left off. We're redesigning both tools to be integrated into one, and make them stable, and add lots of functionality.
[19:51] <Lns> It will be a sort of "LTSP Control Panel" if it all works out the way I want
[19:53] <Lns> You'll be able to manage the chroot, user sessions, connect via VNC, manage clients (power on/off/scheduled), share screens, lock sessions, and all sorts of other fun stuff
[19:53] <Lns> a lot of this stuff was already done by Ogra but the projects got orphaned when he moved on..so i'm hoping we'll be able to take that code and make it into something awesome
[19:53] <sbalneav> Lns: got a bzr tree somewhere?
[19:54] <Lns> sbalneav: not yet, we're still spec'ing out our goals - but the work we have done so far is here (which is going to be mutated into those tools since we re-discovered them): http://damnation.neg9.org/dripy/projects/lns
[19:55] <Lns> oops the code isn't there
[19:55] <Ahmuck_> ogra moved on?
[19:56] <Lns> I'll find out where it is if you want. Basically that code is sort of what we envisioned as a client/server facility for command & control of clients
[19:56] <Lns> Ahmuck: to the netbook part of canonical, yeah
[19:56] <Lns> from edubuntu
[19:57] <alkisg> Lns: so the goal is to also replace italc?
[19:57] <Ahmuck_> ogra is conical ?
[19:57] <Lns> alkisg: not necessarily, no
[19:57] <Ahmuck_> Lns, does it need a fancy name?
[19:58] <Lns> iTalc is good but it lacks a lot of ltsp specific functionality i want
[19:58] <Lns> Ahmuck: huh?
[19:58] <Ahmuck_> call it gantalope :)
[19:58] <Lns> a name is just a name..it's what it does that counts ;)
[19:58] <Ahmuck_> ah, companies have been built on good names though
[19:58] <Ahmuck_> branding is important
[19:59] <Lns> well we're likely going to change the name since thinking about working with the other existing projects, so....no issue
[19:59] <Lns> lol
[19:59] <Lns> if it's that important
[19:59] <Lns> what i'm focussed on is getting something real together
[20:01] <Ahmuck_> eh, i'm just laxing around, brain is in between projects :)
[20:03] <Lns> sbalneav: mercurial can be used to check out the code apparently - https://damnation.neg9.org/hg/lns
[20:03] <Lns> it's really still in its infancy though
[20:06] <Lns> I mean, look at what's already been done by ogra - its a shame nobody had picked up the code since then. This is gold. http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LTSPManager/
[20:10] <alkisg> Yeah, ogra's done a good job on this (as usual)
[20:13] <Lns> No big surprises there =)
[20:14] <Lns> it's up to those who want to make this stuff really work to pick it up.. so I'm willing to do that. That's my #1 complaint - teachers/school techs who have next to 0 knowledge of Linux need something like this to work with it and feel useful..otherwise they just get scared of it and start disliking it
[20:14] <Lns> They are so used to being the hero with Windows that its a big shock when they can't figure something out...a GUI tool like this will enable them to accomplish a lot.
[20:15] <alkisg> Yeah. That & simple user management tasks are much needed things
[20:17] <Lns> alkisg: exactly. I'm aiming to accomplish that (eventually) as well. It all just takes time to map out
[20:17] <Lns> I spent about an hour last night just sketching windows and options and preferences for what i want...now the dev i'm working with will be able to translate it into actual useful stuff =p
[20:18] <alkisg> nubae, you need to change your ISP
[20:18] <alkisg> :P
[20:20] <Lns> haha
[20:24] <sbalneav> Hmm, well, created sabayon 2.25 source package.  Now to see if it builds under pbuilder
[20:25] <sbalneav> then I have to see what I need to do to get it up to my ppd
[20:25] <sbalneav> ppa
[20:25] <alkisg> sbalneav: signing + dput
[20:28] <sbalneav> Yeah, well, I can't remember how to do that part :)
[20:29] <sbalneav> Anything outside of vi foo.c ; make ; make install tends to confuse me :)
[20:29] <sbalneav> durned newfangled packaging systems.
[20:29]  * sbalneav shakes fist
[20:29] <sbalneav> YOU YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPPERS GET OFF MY LAWN
[20:30] <alkisg> heh :)
[20:30] <alkisg> sbalneav: http://alkisg.pastebin.com/d6c14f81d
[20:31] <sbalneav> thx, I'll try that when the pbuilder gets done it's thang
[20:31] <Lns> hahaha
[20:32] <Lns> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5kFrCINpl8&feature=related
[20:33]  * Lns can't help but think of this every time someone says to get off their lawn
[20:33] <nubae> I know
[20:33] <nubae> cant keep a connection for longer than an hour, but I think its the copper cabling to be honest
[20:34] <Lns> nubae: you on dialup?
[20:35] <nubae> no, dsl
[20:35] <nubae> still copper cabling
[20:35] <Lns> right
[20:35] <alkisg> Check the noise on your router's web interface
[20:36] <nubae> well I know that is the problem, the dsl guy told me when he installed the router
[20:36] <nubae> but I'm not about to start messing with changing the copper cabling in the entire house
[20:36] <nubae> I'll just have to move
[20:36] <nubae> :-)
[20:36] <nubae> Lns: u ever checked out sugar?
[20:37] <nubae> I'm trying to get people to help out with that project... its an amazing community and truly amazing software with great ideals and working towards something totally unique
[20:37] <nubae> sugarlabs.org
[20:37] <Lns> nubae: not yet, i need to install it on an ubuntu box soon though to check it out and show it to someone
[20:37] <nubae> its the os that runs on the one laptop per child computers
[20:37] <Lns> nubae: yeah i know that much :)
[20:38] <nubae> well, unfortunately the ubuntu packages are really old
[20:38] <nubae> u'd need a vm of another distro, I think sugar on a stick (fedora based) is the most up to date
[20:38] <nubae> along with opensuse of course since I maintain that
[20:38] <nubae> but really, its worth checking out, especially for primary schools
[20:39] <nubae> works pretty ok with LTSP, but needs a lot of testing in that area, and you could be really helpful there
[20:39] <nubae> since u have existing deployments
[20:39] <Lns> can't anyone make a ppa for updated sugar in ubuntu?
[20:39] <nubae> u would get endless praise if u helped otu
[20:39] <nubae> out
[20:39] <nubae> well, they could, but they aren't
[20:39] <nubae> I've been working on an automated package creation tool along with some others
[20:39] <nubae> using opensuse's gpled build service
[20:40] <nubae> that way we get from source to packages in one go, without having to rely on the distros
[20:40] <Lns> hmm...
[20:40] <nubae> in most cases they will of course repackage themselves cause of policy and stuff
[20:40] <nubae> but it pushes them to do so
[20:40] <Lns> yeah
[20:40] <nubae> like when we anounced it suddenly the debian maintainer started to work like mad to get the packages out :-)
[20:40] <nubae> so there should be a buntu version soon
[20:41] <Lns> well imho a PPA would be a great place to start. it would get the ball rolling, and i use ubuntu at all my sites, so....
[20:42] <Lns> nubae: how hard would it be to compile latest sugar on ubuntu?
[20:42] <nubae> right, so we are gonna have the automated packages created in a ppa
[20:42] <nubae> or an external repo
[20:42] <nubae> well, that should be quite doable
[20:43] <nubae> u can run jhbuild (python based) relatively easily
[20:43] <Lns> does it have a lot of deps i need to worry about?
[20:43] <nubae> the problems come whith integration of some of the gnome deps like abiword and such
[20:44] <nubae> but try it out, I know there are devs working from an ubuntu version of jhbuild
[20:44] <nubae> but thats almost the same are running a vm
[20:44] <Lns> ..it is?
[20:44] <nubae> might be quicker to download an iso and launch in kvm or whatever
[20:44] <nubae> yeah it runs in its own environment
[20:45] <Lns> is it X based?
[20:45] <nubae> yep
[20:45] <nubae> matchbox
[20:45] <nubae> but we're moving to metacity in next release
[20:45] <nubae> meaning individual activities will be able to be launched from gnome
[20:45] <nubae> that will be quite cool
[20:45] <Lns> oh wow
[20:45] <nubae> that will mean collaborative activities will be more common place
[20:45] <Lns> yeah, that would be awesome
[20:46] <nubae> yeah there is a lot of stuff happening in that project... sky is the limit
[20:46] <Lns> i doubt any of my sites would want to switch completely to sugar from gnome
[20:46] <nubae> thats why its so great to work on
[20:46] <Lns> theyv'e had a hard enough time learning gnome.. ;)
[20:46] <nubae> its not a complete switch thing for sure
[20:46] <nubae> but for example, gcompris is making heavy duty progress in integrating completely in the sugar environment
[20:46] <nubae> childsplay too
[20:46] <Lns> nubae: in the meantime you think fedora would be the best iso to use?
[20:47] <nubae> yeah
[20:47] <nubae> sugersuse iso isnt bad either, but I'm just rebuilding browse at the minute
[20:47] <nubae> some messy deps there
[20:49]  * Lns is downloading SoaS iso
[21:00] <nubae> cool
[21:06] <nubae> Lns: the really interesting things are the journal, which is a replacement for folders or directories and is used to semi-automatically keep track of your work, and collaboration, where lots of users can use programs at the same time in some collaborative way
[21:06] <nubae> basically there is no need for nautilus, or dolphin or its equivalents
[21:28] <nubae> Lns: take a look at this: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Community/Distributions/OpenSUSE
[21:50] <nubae> bencrisford1: if u are looking for a great project to work on u can look at sugar too
[21:50] <nubae> sugarlabs.org
[21:50]  * nubae stops advertising
[21:50] <bencrisford1> sugar huh?
[21:50] <bencrisford1> whats that then :P?
[21:51] <Lns> yeah nubae you have too much sugar in your system ;)
[21:51] <nubae> its a system like gnome or kde, but more for kids
[21:52] <nubae> so its an environment that kids learn/understand real quick and it fosters constructionism by collaboration and reviewing activities
[21:52] <nubae> yeah I'm all sugared up
[21:55] <bencrisford1> it sounds good
[21:56] <bencrisford1> i might ask you about it again tommorrow
[21:56]  * bencrisford1 's a little tired
[21:56] <bencrisford1> and im a bit busy with my forum right now
[21:57] <bencrisford1> its a politics forum
[21:57] <bencrisford1> and in the UK theres alot going on right now
[23:45] <Ahmuck_> LTSP Manager is exactly the kind of thing were looking for
[23:49] <Lns> Ahmuck_: good. We're already getting started on merging LTSP Manager and Thin-Client-Manager into one app
[23:50] <Lns> we're going to clean up code and then start adding features
[23:50] <Lns> There will be/is a module system too, to add any functionality you want
[23:51] <Ahmuck_> how does this work with sayabon?
[23:52] <Ahmuck_> will there be a unified type of app?
[23:54] <Lns> Right now, I'm not sure. I know sbalneav is working on sabayon to get it stable, but at this point we can't do anything with it. Maybe by the time we start implementing UI customization features it will be stable enough to just call from a menu
[23:54] <Lns> Otherwise we're going to probably implement more of a pessulus type of interface
[23:55] <Lns> direct editing of gconf, instead of having an actual session going. but again that's oging to be a ways off. We've got a lot of work to do to even get it running :)
[23:57] <Lns> Some cool things we'll have is power scheduling features (turn all thin clients in group FOO off at 3:30pm, all clients in group BAR off at 5:00pm, except for on Thursdays, etc etc.. then wake them up via WoL at 7:50am, etc
[23:57] <Lns> or turning on/off at will
[23:57] <Lns> i know iTalc already has this..but this is going to be a much lighter app


[00:18] <rockstar> Wow.  Just, wow.  http://github.com/guides/completely-remove-a-file-from-all-revisions
[00:19] <Pieter> ool huh
[00:19] <Pieter> *cool huh
[00:19] <rockstar> Pieter, I hope you just forgot your sarcasm tags.
[00:19] <Pieter> no
[00:19] <Pieter> why?
[00:20] <rockstar> Pieter, you should never be changing revision data.  Revisions should be immutable.
[00:20] <Pieter> revisions are also immutable in git
[00:20] <Pieter> there are valid use cases, like having a plaintext password as the guide says... that's very difficult to do in bzr
[00:21] <rockstar> Pieter, if you commit a plaintext password, you change your password.
[00:21] <Pieter> or you just edit it out like in the guide, that's a lot easier :)
[00:22] <Pieter> there are other use cases, like going public with some code but having to remove some company-sensitive information before publishing it
[00:22] <rockstar> Pieter, do what launchpad is doing and create a fresh branch.
[00:23] <Pieter> and then how are you going to remove that info?
[00:23] <thecookie> I wont have any local history with --no-tree?
[00:23] <rockstar> There is no info to remove.  It's bzr init.
[00:23] <Pieter> and loose all your history just because there's some sensitive information in it?
[00:23] <Pieter> that's kinda lame
[00:24] <rockstar> Pieter, so you're going through all 100,000+ revisions making sure that EVERY bit of data is clean for the general public?
[00:24] <Pieter> you don't have to have 100,000 commits ;)
[00:24] <Pieter> but if you have, say 100, but there are a few files in it you rather wouldn't have public
[00:24] <Pieter> sure, you do stuff like this
[00:24] <Pieter> why not? it's easy
[00:25] <rockstar> Pieter, okay.  You change your revision data.
[00:25] <Pieter> everybody will thank you for publishing the full history :)
[00:37] <sohail> one time some people on my team said the team lead was hairy and wrestled bears on his free time
[00:37] <sohail> the checked that into svn
[00:38] <sohail> I thought it was pretty funny but when I left the company, removed it :-)
[00:38] <Pieter> why?
[00:39] <Pieter> (At first I thought that with 'team' you meant 'baseball team' or something, and then started to wonder why they'd use svn)
[00:41] <sohail> lol
[00:41] <sohail> why remove it?
[00:42] <Pieter> yes
[00:42] <Pieter> and why remove it when you left?
[00:42] <sohail> I was still involved but in a more authoritative capacity
[00:43] <sohail> wanted to make sure that I didn't encourage that type of thing against others
[00:43] <sohail> I left the company but was consulting sorry if that wasn't clear :-)
[00:43] <Pieter> ah, right, I was thinking "why would you care?"
[00:44] <sohail> it's a tricky thing
[00:44] <sohail> it was actually quite clever
[00:45] <sohail> the person responsible checked it in as a Python pickled. should have saved it.
[01:41] <jkakar> Is there an equivalent of 'bzr cp SRC DEST'?  I want to copy a file and make changes to it with its own history, after the copy, but if possible, to capture that a fork occurred.
[02:09] <Peng_> jkakar: No.
[02:10] <jkakar> Peng_: Thanks.
[02:11] <Peng_> Sorry. :\
[02:27] <glyph> jkakar: wow
[02:27] <glyph> jkakar: what an odd omission!  I must be really good about not duplicating code, since I've never needed that :)
[02:30] <Peng_> glyph: Heh. One use is when splitting a file into two. OTOH, I suppose if you organize your code well enough from the beginning, you won't need to..
[02:38] <glyph> Peng_: I can definitely see uses for it
[03:47] <jkakar> glyph: Heh.  I'm implementing a new skin and want to use the CSS file from an existing skin as the base for the new one.
[04:11] <BasicPRO> Anyone know what's going on with launchpad? After gw0-0-gr.canonical.com latency skyrockets for me
[04:23] <Peng_> BasicOSX: WFM. Is it still happening to you?
[04:23] <Peng_> (Just trying launchpad.net.)
[04:23] <BasicOSX> Peng:  yes, semi-intelligent discussion about it on #launchpad
[04:23] <Peng_> BasicOSX: Oh, right.
[04:25] <AfC> Hooray for distributed revision control systems and not depending on a single point of failure like that.
[04:25] <wgrant> I'm not sure that bazaar.launchpad.net is actually broken.
[04:28] <BasicOSX> $  bzr branch lp:bzr
[04:28] <BasicOSX> bzr: ERROR: xmlrpc protocol error connecting to https://xmlrpc.edge.launchpad.net/bazaar/: 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable
[04:29] <wgrant> Ah, forgot about the XML-RPC server.
[04:29] <Peng_> Heh.
[04:29] <wgrant> But using bzr+ssh directly might well work.
[04:29] <BasicOSX> I'd prefer not to step out of the documented and trusted release procedure :-)
[04:31] <Peng_> Eh, nothing will go wrong if you do. Probably. :-D
[04:56] <LKRaider> question: can I branch a launchpad project to my local machine, and bind that branch to a hosted launchpad project on my account, so that when I bzr update, it retrieves from the original trunk and bzr commit sends to my hosted project?
[04:58] <LKRaider> I was trying it like this:
[04:58] <LKRaider> bzr init
[04:58] <LKRaider> bzr branch lp:project
[04:58] <LKRaider> bzr branch project mybranch
[04:58] <LKRaider> cd mybranch
[04:59] <LKRaider> bzr push lp:~(account)/project/mybranch
[04:59] <LKRaider> bzr bind lp:~(account)/project/mybranch
[04:59] <BasicOSX> I think you just want to do a bzr push --remember your-repo
[05:01] <LKRaider> without the bind command?
[05:02] <RexEast> Hi! I'm new to Bazaar (and version control in general), and am looking to find whether this tool is suited to my project. I'm working on a Django project solo. I would like to run the public version of my web app on mysite.com, and meanwhile be working on new features on mysite.com/test. Once I've tested a new version, I want to be able to update the main version with my development branch. What would be the simplest way to d
[05:02] <RexEast> By the way, for more context, the precursor to this question is here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/625256/how-do-i-run-one-version-of-a-web-app-while-developing-the-next-version
[05:04] <LKRaider> btw, uncommit rocks :)
[05:07] <BasicOSX> LKRaider:  sorry only 20% here, monitoring the outage on launchpad
[05:09] <LKRaider> oh, yeah, launchpad comes first :)
[05:10] <LKRaider> I believe the --remember flag is what I want. testing right now
[05:12] <RexEast> (...alternately, let me know if another tool like SVN would be better suited for this task. Someone originally recommended SVN to me but I figured bzr could do it as well.)
[05:16] <BasicOSX> RexEast:  I use bzr under turbogears and works very well, use a similar strategy, except I have a production server and development server
[05:17] <LKRaider> BasicOSX: doesnt seem to work as I want it. if I do bzr update, it returns as up-to-date, even tho I have branched from a middle revision from the original trunk
[05:18] <BasicOSX> LKRaider:  after you branch don't do update to merge
[05:18] <BasicOSX> bzr merge --remember upstream
[05:18] <BasicOSX> make changes
[05:18] <BasicOSX> bzr push --remember your-repo
[05:18] <RexEast> @BasicOSX: neat! How would I get started with something that works like yours? Note: I don't need separate servers; this is a very small-time operation for now. The dev version can be on the same server as the production version.
[05:20] <BasicOSX> RexEast:  create your dev repo, then bzr push it to a central area
[05:20] <BasicOSX> Then bzr branch from the central area into your production
[05:21] <BasicOSX> work all you want in your dev repo. bzr committing as you wish
[05:21] <BasicOSX> when happy with the work, bzr push dev to central area
[05:21] <BasicOSX> then bzr merge in your production
[05:22] <BasicOSX> If you have to tweak things in product, just bzr commit and push to a different report if need be, at least that is how I do it
[05:22] <BasicOSX> There is probably some way if doing series and whatnot, but what I do is pretty simple
[05:24] <RexEast> Thanks! I'm going to read over that for a minute and try to figure out which commands I'd use to set that up on my Linux box.
[05:28] <LKRaider> BasicOSX: thanks, your idea seem to work fine for me now :)
[05:30] <LKRaider> can I use bzr bind, after the push, so that commits go to the hosted branch automatically? or would that break something?
[05:36] <RexEast> @BasicOSX: why do I need to have the central area? Couldn't I just push my changes directly from my dev repo to the production server? (Sorry, I'm new to all this :)
[05:39] <BasicOSX> generally there's a few difference between production and development, like what database or tables you use, debug, logging, etc. The split allows for both code bases to live in the central area but branches to live in production and development
[05:40] <BasicOSX> My reasons for it are more simple, I was my repository on a different box so have code in multiple places incase hardware crashes and burns
[05:40] <BasicOSX> also production has live access to the Internet, development restricted access, still to the Internet, I put my repo that is not on the box incase there is a compromise
[05:50] <adelie421> Anyone free to help a noob? Do I need to register a branch before I use bzr send -o foo.patch?
[05:50] <adelie421> I am feeling a bit overwhelmed here trying to properly submit a patch. I have been following http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/en/mini-tutorial/index.html
[05:52] <LKRaider> I think this will create a patch file that you'll have to email to the upstream project somehow
[05:53] <LKRaider> if you are using launchpad, there is a merge button that you can use to request your branch to be merged on the parent trunk
[05:53] <LKRaider> but I am a noob too :P
[06:01] <Peng_> adelie421: If your branch is public, it would be easier to say "hey, merge my branch at http://whatever"..
[06:01] <Peng_> adelie421: But no, you don't need a public location when using "bzr send".
[06:01] <Peng_> adelie421: You should make sure the public_branch is set properly on your copy of the target branch, though.
[06:29] <adelie421> Peng_: sorry, was afk. So wanted to fix some bugs in example-content. I used bzr branch (site), bzr merge, added my pieces, then bzr add, bzr commit -m "details", bzr send -o details.patch. it uploaded and said successful. Thats it, right?
[06:30] <BasicOSX> lifeless:  ping? Did you PQM 1.13-cherrypicks?
[06:38] <Peng_> adelie421: ...More or less, probably.
[06:38] <Peng_> adelie421: It's good to have the proper public_branch value set, to make it easier for people merging it.
[06:39] <Peng_> adelie421: I'm not sure if that would happen automatically or not.
[06:40] <adelie421> I got an email from the maintainer seperately, so hopefully they will let me know if I did id right. I figure given the time I should just take a break for now and follow up on that tomorrow
[10:46] <savvas> hello, does anyone know how to set a server-side variable in bzr branches?
[10:47] <savvas> specifically: cia_project = timekpr
[10:47] <savvas> ( in .bzr/branch/branch.conf )
[11:52] <LarstiQ> mtaylor_: r4142 of bzr.dev looks like it might adress our push problem
[14:41] <SamB> man, I wish there was a MIME registration for diff-style patches :-(
[14:57] <jelmer> SamB: bzr-gtk registers bzr-handle-patch for one of the mime types I think
[15:01] <SamB> hmm, three different types
[15:02] <SamB> mime_types=text/x-diff,text/x-patch,application/x-bazaar-merge-directive
[15:19] <LarstiQ> Spaz: saw http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrFileCopieshttp://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrFileCopies ?
[15:20] <LarstiQ> Spaz: the last one being what `bzr send` produces
[17:48] <pigmej> hmm
[17:49] <pigmej> how to get touching revisions for file
[17:49] <pigmej> not a file_id ?
[17:49] <pigmej> for file_id there is method
[17:49] <pigmej> log.find_touching_revisions(branch, file_id)
[17:50] <pigmej> how to do the same but without file_id ?
[17:50] <pigmej> or how to generate file_id ?
[17:51] <pigmej> I know only revtree.inventory.revision.path2id(file_path)
[17:52] <jelmer> pigmej, in order to find the file id for a particular path, you need to retrieve the inventory first
[17:52] <pigmej> jelmer: right, but I'm looking for touching revisions...
[17:53] <pigmej> so I don't know with inventory is correct...
[17:53] <pigmej> I need to make "list of revisions for file"
[17:53] <jelmer> pigmej, that sounds like a chicken-egg problem
[17:53] <jelmer> pigmej, in order to refer to a particular file you need to find its file id
[17:54] <jelmer> pigmej, since there may be different files with the same name in different revisions
[17:54] <pigmej> jelmer: but not the same file path
[17:54] <jelmer> pigmej, yes, with the same file path
[17:55] <jelmer> pigmej, e.g. if you have a revision in which path "foo" exists
[17:55] <pigmej> jelmer: right... delefe, add and that's it...
[17:55] <jelmer> then the next revision could rename "foo" to "bar" and add a new file "foo"
[17:55] <pigmej> Yes you're right jelmer..
[17:55] <jelmer> the fileid of "foo" would stay with the original file
[17:55] <jelmer> and the new "foo" that is added would have a new file id
[17:57] <pigmej> So, I need to rewrite one class... :)
[17:57] <pigmej> To avoid problems with renamed files ;)
[17:57] <pigmej> jelmer: thanks I forgot about that possibility :d
 Spaz: saw http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrFileCopieshttp://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrFileCopies ?
 Spaz: the last one being what `bzr send` produces
[21:52] <Spaz> LarstiQ, hadn't heard of it
[21:52] <Spaz> hm.
[21:55] <LarstiQ> Spaz: oh bah, I tab-completed wrongly on that second line
[21:55] <LarstiQ> Spaz: the first was for you though :)
[21:55] <Spaz> hm ok
[21:56] <LarstiQ> SamB: in case you didn't get it at the time, the `bzr send` comment was supposed to be direct at you ;)
[21:56] <LarstiQ> Spaz: anyway, it seems Ian is looking at it recently
[21:56] <Spaz> hmm
[21:57] <LarstiQ> Spaz: so providing feedback/coordinating with him seems like the thing to do
[21:57] <Spaz> i could do that
[21:57] <Spaz> unfortunately, i'm moving atm. will be semi-difficult for a week or so.
[21:59] <LarstiQ> Spaz: that's fine, I'll bother you again in a weeks time :)
[22:01] <Spaz> i'll find time still
[22:01] <Spaz> :p
[22:50] <cody-somerville> I've tried to make my repository smaller by using bzr pack and bzr reconcile but instead it made it over three times bigger (its now at 3.2GB).
[22:56] <Peng_> cody-somerville: Right. "bzr pack" doesn't make it much smaller. However, it *does* create a complete backup of the entire repo. :D
[22:57] <cody-somerville> joy
[22:57] <cody-somerville> how do I delete that?
[22:57] <cody-somerville> is there a bzr clean ? :P
[22:57] <Peng_> cody-somerville: Well, the backup is created for a reason: so if you lose power before the new pack hits the disk, you won't lose your repo.
[22:58]  * cody-somerville nods.
[22:58] <Peng_> cody-somerville: rm .bzr/repository/obsolete_packs/* (but *don't* delete the directory itself!)
[22:58] <cody-somerville> Peng_, okay, so that brings it down to 1.6GB
[22:59] <cody-somerville> what is launchpad/.bzr/repository/upload ?
[23:01] <Peng_> cody-somerville: Temporary storage while creating new packs (e.g. when running "bzr pull" or even "bzr pack").
[23:01] <cody-somerville> It is 647M and I'm not doing either.
[23:02] <Peng_> cody-somerville: If there are any six-month old files in it, bzr probably crashed during the middle of a pull and didn't clean up for some reason.
[23:02] <Peng_> cody-somerville: I'm sure it's safe to clean it out, but I've never done it, so don't sue me if something goes wrong... :P
[23:03] <cody-somerville> There seems to be a lock file in there so I'll leave it be for now
[23:44] <LarstiQ> BasicOSX: http://pqm.bazaar-vcs.org/ for the current queue
[23:47]  * LarstiQ falls asleep


[07:24] <kalikiana> daker: Are you using "import Ubuntu.Components.Labs 1.0"?
[10:28] <daker> kalikiana: no, the example in docs don't say that :/
[10:28] <daker> the docs have https://developer.ubuntu.com/api/apps/qml/sdk-15.04.6/Ubuntu.Components.MenuGroup/
[10:28] <daker> "import Ubuntu.Components 1.3"
[10:44] <kalikiana> daker: That's wrong indeed. Do you feel like proposing a fix for the docs in src/UbuntuToolkit/menu*.cpp? Otherwise I can sort it out later
[10:44] <daker> kalikiana: sure i'll try
[12:13] <daker> kalikiana: it should be \inqmlmodule Ubuntu.Components.Labs 1.0 or \inqmlmodule Ubuntu.Components.Labs ?
[12:57] <kalikiana> daker: Without the version number
[12:57] <kalikiana> But use the full import line in the example
[12:57] <kalikiana> After \qml
[13:10] <daker> kalikiana: here is a MR https://code.launchpad.net/~daker/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/fix.1660604/+merge/315996
[17:26] <popey> pmcgowan: Kaleo calculator click passed QA and uploaded to the store
[17:35] <pmcgowan> popey, nice ty
[18:37] <zub> Hi. Why is Ubuntu SDK using "gcc" as CXX (c++ compiler) for CMake?
[18:37] <zub> Is this intentional? It causes issues when C++ executable is being built: one has to explicitly add libstdc++.
[18:37] <zub> it's passed here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-sdk-team/qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu/trunk/view/head:/src/ubuntu/ubuntukitmanager.cpp#L576