[23:59] <kotfsky> hey guys! just wanna give a quick shout out for the great experience with new LTS so far! Thanks a lot!


[15:40] <nmpribeiro> hi there! can someone help me put x server allowing TCP connections please?
[15:41] <nmpribeiro> tried the security/DisallowTCP=false, rebooted and netstat -an | grep -F 6000 just brings nothing
[17:21] <maco> heya, i'm looking at bug 666509 and found that bug 721453 is similar but names another possibly missing package. looking at pkg-config's rdepends id be unsurprised to find it missing on a default kubuntu install, but can anyone nvidia-knowledgeable confirm that it is indeed needed by nvidia-settings? i dont think nvidia-specific stuff will be happy in a vm to test it with...
[17:21] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 666509 in nvidia-settings (Ubuntu) "kubuntu - needs python-gtk2 in order to save to /etc/X11/xorg.con (affects: 2) (dups: 1) (heat: 14)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/666509
[17:21] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 721453 in nvidia-settings (Ubuntu) "nvidia-settings should depend on pkg-config and python-gtk (affects: 1)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/721453
[17:27] <maco> nevermind. code inspection wins.
[21:28] <RAOF> cnd: Do you have any ETA for multitouch-on-1.11 landing?  If it's a ways away I might try my hand at refreshing the existing patches for 1.11 so we can push 1.11 to precise nice and early.
[21:28] <cnd> RAOF, it'll be at least a month I think
[21:28] <cnd> due to the design sprint and uds
[21:29] <cnd> RAOF, it would be awesome if you could forward port the patches from oneiric
[21:29] <cnd> but fair warning:
[21:29] <cnd> the input side has changed some (function consolidation type changes)
[21:29] <cnd> and the code changes for multitouch are very hairy
[21:29] <cnd> so if you do venture in, bring your hat and whip
[21:30] <cnd> no telling what you find in there :)
[21:30] <cnd> it's also ok to upload without the multitouch patches for now
[21:30] <cnd> so don't let that gate your development for precise
[21:31] <RAOF> Doesn't unity fail to load when gestures aren't available?
[21:32] <cnd> RAOF, there was a bug with that, but it was unity failing to verify that geis initialized properly
[21:32] <cnd> so the fix for that is just to make unity not be dumb :)
[21:32] <cnd> however, that has nothing to do with multitouch :)
[21:32] <cnd> not yet at least
[21:33] <cnd> when you forward port the patches, do forward port the gesture extension
[21:34] <RAOF> Right.
[21:34] <bryceh> if unity simply needs a check on geis, maybe that'd be the easiest/safest way to go?
[21:34] <RAOF> Geis still looks for that?
[21:34] <cnd> RAOF, yeah, geis currently only looks for the gesture extension
[21:34] <cnd> we will be starting the geis backend for using the new multitouch-based architecture shortly
[21:35] <cnd> bryceh, that's the easiest way to get things working for now
[21:35] <cnd> and not having any gestures right now is ok
[21:35] <cnd> so if time is really an issue, feel free to just comment out all of our patches for the X server :)
[21:38] <RAOF> I'd kinda like to have an existing implementation to compare against when the new multitouch lands.
[21:39] <RAOF> But if that turns out to be annoyingly difficult I'll drop it like a stone :)
[21:39] <cnd> RAOF, ok
[21:39] <cnd> and I'm happy to answer any questions you have
[21:40] <cnd> RAOF, if you are interested in helping out beyond just getting it to work, you could really help by porting it to match the upstream protocol at the same time
[21:40] <cnd> there's two major changes, implementation wise, and a bunch of minor changes
[21:40] <cnd> like renames
[21:42] <cnd> but that could easily be more work than you have time for :)
[22:22] <bryceh> weird; Ubuntu-X's subscription to xserver-xorg-video-ati seems to have been dropped in the past week or two
[22:48] <cnd> RAOF, bryceh: DBO says he'll fix the unity-geis bug
[22:49] <cnd> I asked him if he could since he wrote the code and would probably be faster at fixing it
[22:49] <RAOF> Woot!
[23:04] <bryceh> cnd, great to hear
[23:08] <bryceh> RAOF, got a thumbs-up from keith on our libxrandr-utils plan
[23:10] <RAOF> Also woot!
[23:11] <RAOF> I guess we'll do some design at UDS?
[23:13] <bryceh> good idea
[23:14] <bryceh> I'm unsure if we want to schedule a session for it; this type of project's something that'd pull in a huge peanut gallery which could be a distraction
[23:15] <bryceh> but might be hard to set aside a time otherwise
[23:24] <cnd> bryceh, RAOF, what's this libxrandr-utils plan?
[23:24]  * cnd is curious due to potential overlap with touchscreen to display mapping
[23:24] <RAOF> Yeah, it might well overlap.
[23:25] <RAOF> The idea is to factor out the RANDR-specific stuff from gnome-desktop and xrandr (and also from kde) into a helper library.
[23:25] <cnd> ok
[23:25] <RAOF> What do you need for touchscreen to display mapping?  This'd be done in a client app?
[23:26] <RAOF> I mean, and X client would be responsible for setting up that mapping, right?
[23:26] <cnd> yes, though I would hope at some point we should be able to determine what the mapping should be at startup too
[23:27] <cnd> I don't have any fully-fleshed ideas
[23:27] <cnd> but I would like to be part of any discussion that could make touchscreen mapping easier (or at least make it non-existent :)
[23:27] <RAOF> Determining the mapping at startup suggests that you'd want policy in the server, right?
[23:27] <cnd> oops, s/non-existent/existent/
[23:28] <cnd> RAOF, I dunno if it's policy per se
[23:28] <cnd> policy suggest you use heuristics to determine the best choice
[23:28] <cnd> we really just need a way to say "this touchscreen is physically attached to this display"
[23:28] <cnd> and the only policy is that by default, a touchscreen should be mapped to its attached display
[23:29] <cnd> right now, all touchscreens (if you actually have multiple of them on one machine) are mapped across the entire screen
[23:29] <cnd> by default
[23:30] <RAOF> Yeah.  Which is obviously suboptimal.
[23:30] <cnd> the first step should be to figure out how to determine what is attached to what
[23:30] <cnd> but the second step would be to allow configuration of the mapping in a nice utility
[23:31] <cnd> the current xinput coordinate transformation approach uses pixels as offsets when you need to translate the input in the screen
[23:31] <cnd> so any xrandr changes need to propagate to the coordinate transformation
[23:31] <cnd> or something like that
[23:32] <cnd> so I think there's potential for overlap in the utils, and also in the xrandr change propagation
[23:32] <cnd> so if you're going to have a discussion somewhere, physical or virtual, please count me in
[23:33] <RAOF> Ah, right.  I see.
[23:34] <RAOF> You'd need either (a) an in-server hook between xinput and xrandr, or (b) a settings-daemon plugin that listens for xrandr events and does the appropriate changes.
[23:34] <cnd> yeah
[23:35] <cnd> (b) is probably better
[23:35] <RAOF> Right.
[23:35] <cnd> I'm not a big fan of the server messing with properties of my input device
[23:35] <cnd> even if it probably does know better
[23:35] <RAOF> And for that, you need some way to easily *identify* which display is which, and that's totally in-scope for (my idea of) xrandr-utils :)
[23:36] <bryceh> sounds in-scope in my idea of libxrandr-utils as well
[23:40] <RAOF> It looks like we *might* want a UDS session for this after all :)
[23:40] <cnd> heh
[23:42] <bryceh> RAOF, maybe; I still worry we would get too many people and wouldn't get much actual design work done.  Maybe a multimonitor configuration session in addition to the design session?
[23:43] <RAOF> Possibly we want a xrandr-utils requirements-gathering session and a private design session; I don't think that code design is well-suited to UDS fishbowls, but we should know what we're designing *for* :)
[23:43] <cnd> bryceh, I worry about turning people away who would like to at least watch any designing
[23:44] <bryceh> cnd, why?
[23:44] <cnd> could we make it clear that it's specifically for designing and only for those who really understand or just want to watch?
[23:44] <cnd> it just feels un-uds
[23:44] <cnd> (says the tech lead in product strategy...)
[23:45] <cnd> I'm just throwing that out as an option
[23:45] <cnd> I understand the interest in keeping it more private :)
[23:45] <bryceh> cnd, we've tried that with other xorg things in the past, but haven't hit on the right signal to send; they always seem to end up overpopulated
[23:46] <cnd> hmm
[23:46] <cnd> it seems like something we should keep trying though
[23:46] <RAOF> I think we could happily sit in a room with the microphones on and IRC.
[23:46] <cnd> with canonical and ubuntu being more at the forefront of design and implementation
[23:46] <cnd> than we have been in the past
[23:47] <RAOF> But I don't think low-level API design really benefits from more than a couple of people being audiable at a time.
[23:47] <cnd> I agree that it doesn't fit in with the current uds session setup though
[23:48] <cnd> I think irc would be a waste of time, because it would be too hard to get things done if you included people on irc
[23:48] <bryceh> normally I wouldn't argue the point of having visibility and soliciting input and feedback, but we've had multimonitor uds discussions pretty much every uds the past few years
[23:48] <cnd> heh
[23:48] <cnd> is this really the multimonitor that people are interested in though?
[23:48] <bryceh> I seriously don't think we are going to tap a lot more value there, we pretty much know all the issues and what people expect and so on
[23:49] <cnd> yeah, it's not about tapping more value per se
[23:49] <cnd> I would hope someone interested would be able to just drop in and learn more, I guess is the value I would like to see
[23:50] <cnd> in a non-participating way
[23:50] <cnd> but it may just be a pipe dream :)
[23:51] <bryceh> it's hard for me to get enthused about people who aren't going to be participating ;-)
[23:51] <RAOF> This would be a significantly different session to our previous multi-monitor ones though, right?  This would be low-level, API & code design, rather than "what behaviour would we like to have".
[23:51] <bryceh> I'm sure whatever we do it's going to be posted to phoronix and sliced / diced / criticized to the nth degree regardless
[23:52] <bryceh> RAOF, right
[23:53] <RAOF> It's probably worth publishing the results & justifications of that design discussion; publishing the live stream of us talking about it wouldn't be terrible :)
[23:53] <bryceh> one other thing I want to avoid is building up expectations sky high, like seems to always happen (wayland, etc.)
[23:54] <cnd> true
[23:55] <cnd> I'm fine with this being private, I just wish we had a way to make a design session work as well as other ubuntu sessions do
[23:55] <cnd> some of them at least :)
[23:56] <RAOF> I think this is a different case, really.
[23:57] <RAOF> And calls for a different type of transparency.
[23:57] <cnd> yeah, it is
[23:58] <RAOF> The set of people who will actually be users of this code is small.
[23:58] <bryceh> and fwiw it's not that it needs to be done private, there's nothing secret, just that we want to discuss it more closely than can be done in a room full of people
[23:59] <RAOF> So as to avoid a camel :)
[23:59] <bryceh> exactly


[00:01] <humphreybc> yeah we probably could
[00:10] <humphreybc> have you all gone here and marked the bug as affecting you?
[00:10] <humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/example-content/+bug/505873
[00:10] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 505873 in example-content "Ubuntu Manual for example content in Lucid" [Wishlist,New]
[00:43] <wolter> humphreybc, wouldn't you prefer the manual to be in the desktop?
[00:47] <humphreybc> i would
[00:47] <humphreybc> this is just the first step
[00:48] <humphreybc> if we get it as example content then it will be easy to ask them to add a link on the desktop
[00:48] <wolter> ok
[00:49] <wolter> yeah I thought that was your intention :) just making sure
[00:49] <humphreybc> i also want a big fat link here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
[00:50] <humphreybc> right beside the big green "download ubuntu" button I want another button that says "download the official manual"
[00:54] <wolter> That'd be so nice
[00:54] <wolter> humphreybc, I have a couple of questions
[00:55] <wolter> #1 requires you to read a piece of my chapter blueprint
[00:55] <wolter> 1. Do I need to meticulously describe how to get the basic operations done in applications such as Software Sources, Ubuntu Software Center and Synaptic Package Manager, or rather just explain the purpose of each?
[00:57] <wolter> the other one i don't remember
[00:57] <wolter> but I would like to suggest a section in the advanced part of the manual to explain how to build packages
[00:57] <wolter> and how simple it can be
[01:07] <humphreybc> wolter: um software center is pretty easy, you could probably just say something like "search for the application you require or find it under the categories and then click install to let Ubuntu do the rest" - I think they're working on the software center in Lucid to make it even easier
[01:08] <humphreybc> Software Sources and Synaptic you will have to go into a bit more detail
[01:08] <humphreybc> but not a lot of detail
[01:08] <humphreybc> and as for building packages, that's too advanced even for the advanced section I'm afraid
[01:08] <wolter> oh ok
[01:09] <humphreybc> yeah sorry
[01:15] <humphreybc> how big do we think the PDF will be?
[01:15] <wolter> well, i think about 40 pages?
[01:15] <wolter> don't you think?
[01:15] <wolter> the last time i built the manual it was 21 pages long, but not at all finished as we all know
[01:16] <humphreybc> no i mean size
[01:16] <humphreybc> it's about 150kb at the moment
[01:16] <humphreybc> but with images
[01:16] <humphreybc> and another 20 pages or so
[01:16] <humphreybc> it'll be what, 2mb?
[01:18]  * humphreybc is talking to Jorge Castro who packages the example content for the releases
[01:20]  * humphreybc he says we need to squeeze every kilobyte out of it
[01:21]  * humphreybc "me:  And you personally, think it's a good project?"
[01:22]  * humphreybc "Jorge:  yeah of course!we definately need it!"
[01:25]  * humphreybc has registered a new blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/optimization
[01:37] <wolter> nice work humphreybc :)
[01:39] <humphreybc> we're on our way!
[01:46] <wolter> i will send an article that may seem interesting to all the manual writers to the mailing lists
[01:48] <humphreybc> ok
[01:52] <wolter> humphreybc, do you think I should write always with a semi-paranoic point of view?
[01:52] <humphreybc> what do you mean?
[01:52] <wolter> like, in deb packages i should warn people to not install every deb package they see
[01:52] <wolter> because anybody could make one
[01:52] <wolter> right?
[01:53] <humphreybc> yeah that would be a good idea
[02:06] <humphreybc> nice link
[02:22] <wolter> thanks
[02:24] <humphreybc> i wonder if we should do some research
[02:26] <humphreybc> i might start a thread on UF with 5 questions
[02:26] <humphreybc> for content
[02:27] <humphreybc> something like "If you could definitely have one topic in the manual, what would it be?" and "Would you prefer lots of screenshots to show you how to do things, or would you prefer step by step guides?" etc
[02:27] <humphreybc> but i'd need help from the team to formulate five good useful questions
[02:28] <humphreybc> and of course we will have to aim it at Ubuntu newcomers - so we'll have something like "Remember to back when you first started using Ubuntu, and answer these questions as if you were that person back then:" or something
[02:28] <humphreybc> as well as putting it in the absolute beginners forum
[02:28] <humphreybc> so, guys, ideas for questions please
[02:30] <humphreybc> what do we NEED to know?
[02:31] <humphreybc> perhaps we could give them the list of default apps and ask them to put them in order of which should be highest priority/include the most detail
[02:31] <wolter> ok, I think we should open a page for this in the wiki
[02:31] <wolter> will you do it?
[02:31] <wolter> There we can draft questions
[02:31] <humphreybc> okay cool
[02:31] <humphreybc> i'll start a new apge
[02:32] <humphreybc> hold up one sec
[02:32] <wolter> and separate from that, anybody can either roam the #ubuntu channel for frequent questions, the forums, or even make threads like the one you suggested
[02:32] <wolter> good
[02:35] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/survey
[02:35] <humphreybc> tell me your ideas in here and i'll add them to the wiki (so we don't have two people editing the same page)
[02:38] <humphreybc> refresh the page, i've just added some questions
[02:38] <wolter> ok
[02:38] <humphreybc> oops screwed up the headers, refresh again now
[02:39] <wolter> well, I have heard of tons of people having problems with their ATI video cards and with pulseaudio
[02:39] <wolter> so we could have a section for hardware problems
[02:39] <humphreybc> i was sort of meaning for this questionnaire to just be a general thing
[02:39] <humphreybc> with only a few questions
[02:39] <wolter> oh sorry
[02:39] <wolter> yes
[02:39] <humphreybc> you know, like it covers the whole concept of the manual
[02:39] <wolter> hm.. so, these questions will be part of some poll to get feedback from the community?
[02:39] <humphreybc> okay well let's start with what we need to know
[02:40] <humphreybc> wolter, yeah kind of
[02:40] <humphreybc> it's also a bit of a promo for the manual, and to get some more feedback from the community
[02:40] <humphreybc> what do we need to know from users that we don't know already?
[02:40] <humphreybc> we need to know how highly they value say, getting online, compared to learning about Ubuntu One?
[02:40] <wolter> Well, what i just said may be a topic in the manual
[02:41] <wolter> like a hardware support
[02:41] <wolter> section
[02:41] <wolter> and well, the stuff about pulseaudio could be covered in the troubleshooting section
[02:42] <humphreybc>  that's chapter 4
[02:42] <wolter> in fact (sorry for taking the topic temporarily elsewhere) i think we should have also a troubleshooting wiki page where we all suggest troubles to shoot described in the final troubleshooting chapter of the manual
[02:43] <wolter> because it wouldn't be intelligent to have problem-solving spread all around the manual
[02:43] <wolter> instead we should have like, "if you have problems with this and that, look for a solution in chapter 8: troubleshooting. Anyway, lets get back to your topci
[02:43] <wolter> let me think of other questions
[02:43] <wolter> about how many questions would you like to have?
[02:45] <humphreybc> yeah i'll create a troubleshooting page soon
[02:46] <humphreybc> well 5 - 8 questions
[02:46] <humphreybc> refresh the page
[02:46] <humphreybc> tell me what you think
[02:47] <wolter> I think the questions you have there are very useful
[02:47] <humphreybc> cool
[02:47] <humphreybc> can you think of anything else?
[02:47] <wolter> hm, but I would include, in the first question, that the topic has to be ubuntu specific
[02:47] <wolter> for example, to avoid stuff like "a how-to-use-audacity tutorial"
[02:47] <humphreybc> okay
[02:47] <wolter> because there are people in the forums that don't know where they are standing
[02:48] <wolter> let me think of a question myself
[02:48] <wolter> What do you dislike about ubuntu/
[02:48] <wolter> ?
[02:48] <wolter> maybe?
[02:49] <wolter> Or, if you were to stop using ubuntu,  why would it be
[02:49] <wolter> ?
[02:50] <wolter> (also, how about a section in the wiki where we the team suggest potential content?)
[02:51] <humphreybc> I don't think that question is specific to us
[02:51] <humphreybc> it's more a general Ubuntu thing, rather than something to do with the manual
[02:51] <humphreybc> or
[02:51] <humphreybc> I suppose if we ask that
[02:52] <humphreybc> and get an overwhelming response like "lack of hardware documentation" then we know we need to make chapter 4 awesome
[02:52] <humphreybc> is that what you mean?
[02:57] <humphreybc> refresh the page again, added another couple of questions. I think that's almost all we need, really. Unless you can think of some more, I might go ahead and create the UF thread.
[03:10] <humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8650191
[03:11] <humphreybc> now we wait ....
[03:43] <humphreybc> look how many people we have actively working on the project: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+topcontributors
[04:05] <wolter> yes humphreybc that is what i meant :)
[04:05] <wolter> we could get some important info
[04:05] <wolter> such as, "ubuntu doesn't have an application for ______"
[04:06] <wolter> so if there actually is one, but it is buried deep, we can point that out
[04:06] <wolter> that is, if it is general purpose
[04:06] <wolter> humphreybc, sorry for my unanounced afk-ness
[04:06] <wolter> I had a break from writing chap 5
[04:06] <wolter> but i am now more oriented than i ever was
[04:07] <humphreybc> no probs
[04:07] <wolter> I will push something later, like in a couple of hourse or more
[04:07] <wolter> lol, I wish I saw myself on that list
[04:08] <wolter> All i need to do is push my changes to get karma?
[04:08] <humphreybc> yeah you get branch stuff
[04:13] <wolter> humphreybc, its getting damn good feedback the thread
[04:13] <wolter> nice work
[04:13] <wolter> I am working on 1) of post #5 :)
[04:15] <wolter> i'm going afk right now, see you in an hour or such
[04:15] <humphreybc> yeah but wolter an admin moved our thread to the community cafe
[04:15] <humphreybc> I've emailed the forum council to find out why
[05:15] <wolter> hmm.. how about that.. the ubuntu pocket guide uses the corner strip to declare the version of ubuntu it is for
[05:18] <wolter> humphreybc, have you thought about contacting the ubuntu pocket guide author?
[05:34] <wolter> Oh hi brishu, I read your post in the forums
[05:35] <wolter> Did you find out about the manual this way
[05:35] <wolter> o angelus sorry
[05:35] <angelus> wolter, yup ...
[05:35] <wolter> Good
[05:35] <wolter> are you going to help out?
[05:35] <angelus> i hope so ...
[05:36] <angelus> im looking at it and seeing if there is anything i can tackle ..
[05:36] <wolter> angelus, i am working in a big chapter.. chapter 5
[05:36] <wolter> you know where to find the table of contents?
[05:37] <angelus> gimme a second to get there
[05:38] <angelus> i'm at the chapter 5 page right now ... you are doing software packaging in Ubuntu am i correct ?
[05:38] <wolter> yes
[05:39] <wolter> a lot of people have suggested us to go big on that section
[05:39] <wolter> and the good thing is, its something really easy
[05:40] <angelus> yup i would say so ... especially since you can do thhe software management center ...
[05:41] <angelus> err ... ignore that
[05:42] <angelus> i meant ... i can help out with the Software Center ... as well as little bit on How to add repositories the GUI way on to the software sources .. ,
[05:43] <angelus> id say go the vi /etc/apt/sources.list ... but i think there was an agreement to not get into too much of the terminal/CLI stuff till later in the book am i correct ??
[05:53] <wolter> yes well
[05:53] <wolter> I am writing for both methods sometimes
[05:53] <wolter> but without getting into detail
[05:54] <wolter> however, if the team wants me to wipe those parts off I will
[05:54]  * humphreybc is talking to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project on how we can get their support for the manual
[05:56] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[05:59] <wolter> oh nice
[06:01]  * humphreybc the Learning project is officially backed by Canonical
[06:04] <wolter> hmm.. why can I not use uline?
[06:05] <humphreybc> what's uline?
[06:06] <wolter> underline, according to the wikibook
[06:06] <humphreybc> hmm
[06:06] <wolter> I may have to review the writing format guidelines
[06:06] <humphreybc> maybe it's deprecated
[06:06] <wolter> Is underline not used?
[06:06] <wolter> oh
[06:06] <humphreybc> i just use bold
[06:06] <wolter> I am using underline for addresses
[06:06] <humphreybc> where abouts/
[06:06] <wolter> like Applications > Administration > Software Sources
[06:06] <wolter> what should I use?
[06:06] <wolter> and for file addresses
[06:06] <wolter> as in /etc/apt/sources.list
[06:07] <humphreybc> not sure
[06:08] <brishu> wolter, i would italicize the addresses, or put them in a monospace
[06:08] <wolter> yeah, i will italize while I test
[06:08] <wolter> I think this things should be defined, if not already
[06:09] <humphreybc> they might be
[06:09] <humphreybc> talk to joe?
[06:10] <brishu> wolter, i have the Ubuntu Pocket Guide in front of me and they are italicizing the Menu Addresses(i.e. Applications->Games->Tertis)
[06:11] <brishu> and monospace w/ dotted underline for folder addresses (/home)
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson> i recommend doing Parent → Child → etc
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson> well, rather, the latex equivalent of these
[06:12] <IlyaHaykinson> also, since Software Sources already lets ppl edit the sources list, i don't think there's a strong need to tell ppl to edit a file manually...
[06:14] <brishu> IlyaHaykinson, but the easiest way to edit the sources normally is sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list, which we will need the terminal for ...
[06:16] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson, yeah, but I am just letting them know that software sources edits that file, in case they want to do anything with it... do you think I should not mention that?
[06:16] <brishu> id say a blurb on how to do it on the GUI, then a Link to the editing sources.list section(if we have one), for those interested
[06:17] <brishu> s/blurb/section
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson> hm, i wouldn't mention it. every tool in the GUI edits some file or another.
[06:17] <wolter> brishu, well, we are not basing our manual on the ubuntu pocket guide
[06:17] <brishu> sorry ...
[06:17] <wolter> haha, no problem
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson>  i would avoid discussing manual editing of things unless that's really the only way to do something
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson> or unless it's vital for troubleshooting
[06:17] <wolter> I also think that whoever is making the style definitions should make a single \thing{} for command lines
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson> it's like a beginner's manual for Windows trying to direct people (even optionally) into the Registry
[06:19] <humphreybc> talk to jmburgess about style guide
[06:19] <wolter> ok
[06:20] <humphreybc> or dutchie
[06:20] <IlyaHaykinson> there should probably be two different code commands -- one for inline filenames etc, and one for actual snippets (i.e. standalone code sections or the like)
[06:20] <wolter> lol, the last times i have tried to install something through software center I have not been able to do it without the authetification thing bothering me
[06:23] <wolter> what latex editors do you use?
[06:24] <wolter> so IlyaHaykinson you would say to not touch the details much when writting the manual?
[06:26] <IlyaHaykinson> hm. my preference is for a medium level of detail -- not just tell people to use an application, but point them to a particular screen; explain the contents of the screen, but not go into telling people about every single button.
[06:27] <wolter> ok
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> basically, tell them how to do the most common things so that it's possible to follow along. and then hint or make a cursory mention of the other, slightly more advanced things.
[06:27] <wolter> and what latex editor do you use?
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> at least that's how i would approach it.
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> oh. i use emacs.
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> i guess i could as well use gedit here. i treat it as pure text, basically.
[07:17] <wolter> what can I do when there is a "text conflict" in a file?
[07:20] <wolter> nvm
[07:20] <wolter> bzr resolve FILE (for the record)
[07:53] <humphreybc> everyone check Planet Ubuntu in about 10 minutes
[07:54] <wolter> wow nice
[07:55] <humphreybc> I think you will be very pleased :)
[07:58] <wolter> is it in the fridge?
[07:58] <wolter> or some other blog?
[08:00] <wolter> I saw a bullet in the fridge in the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter #175 that says Ubuntu Manual Project
[08:08] <humphreybc> http://planet.ubuntu.com/
[08:08] <humphreybc> scroll down a wee bit
[08:15] <brishu> the picture (is it the proposed-cover?) looks awesome. :)
[08:17] <humphreybc> yes it's a proposed cover
[08:17] <humphreybc> one of many proposed ones!
[08:19] <brishu> kool :) ...
[08:21] <humphreybc> add your feedback if you like
[08:22] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
[08:27] <wolter> humphreybc, nice!!
[08:27] <wolter> my lynx :)
[08:27] <humphreybc> indeed!
[08:29] <wolter> humphreybc, this feels so nice.. the project coming out so well
[08:31] <humphreybc> yep we're doing good
[08:32] <humphreybc> although I can't help but feel we're not getting the content done.... maybe it's just me because I haven't written in about a week
[08:32] <humphreybc> I hope it's not "all talk but no action" kind of thing
[08:55] <humphreybc> might pay to have a look at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/PDFs
[08:57] <wolter> well, I have done a big portion on chap 5
[08:57] <wolter> its already on the branch
[08:57] <wolter> for good :)
[08:57] <wolter> this bzr tool is amazing
[09:05] <humphreybc> man wolter, nice work!
[09:06] <wolter> do you think so?
[09:06] <wolter> :)
[09:06] <humphreybc> yeah i will have a read soon!
[09:07] <humphreybc> do have a look at that link i posted up above
[09:08] <humphreybc> we can't copy it tho
[09:09] <wolter> oh haha, i thought you had read it and that was why you said "nice work!"
[09:09] <wolter> lol
[09:10] <wolter> should I get student?
[09:13] <wolter> wow that document is big
[09:20] <wolter> hm.. i could even help translate that book to spanish
[09:20] <wolter> that'd give me karma too :)
[09:21] <humphreybc> you could
[09:21] <humphreybc> student english yea
[09:21] <humphreybc> 60mb i know
[09:21] <humphreybc> 357 pages
[09:21] <humphreybc> it's a paid-for manual written about Ubuntu 8.04
[09:21] <humphreybc> we can't copy it, it would be illegal
[09:22] <humphreybc> and we don't want to either
[09:26] <wolter> yeah
[09:41] <humphreybc> okay wolter i'm going to have a read now
[09:41] <wolter> good
[09:41] <wolter> cant wait for your feedback
[09:41] <wolter> I don't know if I'm making it too long or if its just nice
[09:42] <humphreybc> I'll add comments as I go in the tex file and then push it through for you
[09:44] <wolter> nice :)
[09:50] <humphreybc> i might assign myself as the editor for chapter 5 :)
[09:51] <wolter> good :)
[10:01] <wolter> I have written a testimonial for you .. hope it helps you get into the members board whenever you want to
[10:02] <humphreybc> awesome I just saw that, i'll read it in a sec - almost done adding comments to chapter 5 :)
[10:08]  * humphreybc just pushed up a new revision with changes
[10:09] <wolter> good
[10:10] <humphreybc> have a look :)
[10:11] <humphreybc> nice testimonial wolter, much appreciated :)
[10:11] <humphreybc> if you ever go for membership then i'll gladly write you one and support you
[10:13] <wolter> yeah well, I would like one membership, but my efforts in the community are not even near to getting me a membership
[10:13] <wolter> maybe someday, I say
[10:13] <wolter> I have read logs of meetings.. those guys are cruel
[10:15] <humphreybc> they can be yes
[10:15] <humphreybc> although
[10:15] <humphreybc> if you're nice to them then they're nice back
[10:16] <humphreybc> I got declined at my one last year, but they were very nice about it and offered to help me work on my stuff to get my membership sorted. popey was actually one of the guys on the council
[10:18] <popey> hah
[10:18] <popey> we're not cruel
[10:18] <popey> some people apply for membership without even reading the guidelines
[10:18] <popey> effectively wasting our time
[10:19] <humphreybc> oh yeah i know
[10:19] <humphreybc> a lot of people have an ill-informed idea of what membership is and means
[10:19] <popey> indeed
[10:19] <humphreybc> so apply without really any experience :S
[10:19] <humphreybc> I might apply around june or something
[10:19] <popey> I've even had people message me asking what is the absolute minimum they need to do to get membership
[10:19] <humphreybc> depends how this manual pans out
[10:20] <popey> because all they want is the @ubuntu.com email address
[10:20] <popey> which fails to see the whole point of membership
[10:20] <humphreybc> indeed. I read the article in this weeks' newsletter about membership which might clear some stuff up
[10:21] <humphreybc> when do you think i should be ready to apply popey?
[10:21] <popey> thats impossible to answer
[10:21] <humphreybc> heh
[10:22] <wolter> haha, the @ubuntu.com email address was one big reason why I wanted the membership
[10:22] <humphreybc> impossible? so it's actually harder than time travel?
[10:22] <wolter> and because it is not what it is all about is basically why I have not wasted your time ;)
[10:22] <humphreybc> wolter: nice
[10:22] <popey> the whole point of membership is to reward significant and sustained contribution to the project
[10:22] <wolter> humphreybc, I would read the log of the meeting when they rejected you
[10:22] <popey> it's not a badge
[10:23] <wolter> and actually try to think how would they act now with all your work
[10:23] <popey> so the goal should be to contribute
[10:23] <popey> the goal should not be membership
[10:23] <wolter> popey, indeed
[10:23] <humphreybc> heh well that's what i'm doing, i just need to do more xD
[10:23] <popey> i didnt apply until a couple of years after I started contributing
[10:23] <wolter> I can't lie saying I did not want an @ubuntu.com email address, which is my point haha
[10:24] <humphreybc> wolter: what do you think of the feedback?
[10:24] <humphreybc> (just getting on topic again)
[10:25] <wolter> humphreybc, I agree with 95% of it
[10:25] <wolter> I will start working on the implementation tomorrow
[10:26] <wolter> humphreybc, I disagree in that we should not show terminals until the second part of the manual
[10:26] <wolter> I think we should provide a slight description on how to do certain things
[10:26] <wolter> and then link to chap8, in case the reader does not understand
[10:26] <wolter> but of course, the manual is yours and I will honor your desicion
[10:27] <wolter> decision*
[10:27] <wolter> I mean, its ours, but I still do
[10:27] <wolter> Hm so, I will go to sleep now
[10:28] <wolter> It is very late. Perhaps the day I have stayed up the longest time. Its 4:30 AM here and I am starting to feel like a miscarriaged person
[10:28] <wolter> So, good-bye. Sorry for my ranting and, if you have anything to say, make good use of the memoserv
[10:28] <wolter> you know.. /msg memoserv help
[10:28] <wolter> bye all.
[10:32] <humphreybc> so brishu, who are you?
[10:35] <humphreybc> dutchie, ping
[10:41]  * humphreybc can't believe that the software center idea was started over 4 years ago!
[10:41] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=show&redirect=SoftwareStore
[11:10] <humphreybc> dutchie: ping
[11:26] <humphreybc> right i'm off to bed now fellas
[11:26] <humphreybc> night
[15:26] <pererik87> 99 unread messages.. guys??
[16:08] <pererik87> Chapter 5 -> "Synaptic Package Manager" This is removed from lucid.
[16:09] <pererik87> !ping
[16:09] <manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
[17:58] <ianto> pererik87:  What's the problem?
[18:54] <humphreybc> Hi all
[18:54] <humphreybc> check out the main forums page
[18:54] <humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/
[18:57] <aeonspire>  nice :)
[18:57] <popey> hmmm
[18:57] <popey> I am concerned about the amount of focus and drive you're putting on getting the manual on the cd
[18:58] <humphreybc> oh?
[18:58] <humphreybc> how so
[18:58] <popey> considering no other application or data gets _considered_ for inclusion on the cd until it at least _exists_!
[18:58] <popey> :)
[18:58] <popey> fact is right now the manual doesn't exist (in terms of completeness)
[18:58] <humphreybc> true
[18:58] <popey> It also puts pressure on the ubuntu project
[18:59] <popey> because you're going round asking people a question to which the answer will almost certainly be "yes"
[18:59] <humphreybc> what do you mean?
[18:59] <popey> well, what I'm saying is get it written first and foremost
[18:59] <popey> then packaged
[18:59] <popey> tested
[18:59] <popey> then request inclusion on the cd
[19:00] <humphreybc> Right but by then it will be too late for Lucid
[19:00] <popey> or rather, inclusion into the "main" section of the repo
[19:00] <humphreybc> Sure I understand what you mean, that would be fine if the project was started maybe 6 months ago
[19:00] <popey> but the problem with the way you're doing it now (and this is my opinion) is that you are putting pressure on the project
[19:01] <aeonspire> but thats not necessarily a bad thing
[19:01] <popey> by going round getting people to "me too" a bug , and +1 a forum post
[19:01] <popey> it is if the manual doesnt get finished in time
[19:01] <humphreybc> how so? I would think that I'm putting pressure on our project, more than Ubuntu itself.
[19:01] <humphreybc> And the manual will be finished in time, I can guarantee it.
[19:01] <popey> you cant
[19:01] <humphreybc> I know that's a bold thing to say
[19:01] <popey> you absolutely cant
[19:01] <popey> what if you're hit by a bus tomorrow?
[19:02] <humphreybc> Have you been following the branch?
[19:02] <popey> yes
[19:02] <popey> its not about that
[19:02] <popey> enthusiasm counts for a lot!
[19:02] <popey> as does the amount of work you've done
[19:02] <popey> but just hear me out a moment
[19:02] <humphreybc> Well I'd like to think i'm safer than that, and besides, we've got people who could quite easily take over from where I left off if something did go wrong.
[19:02] <humphreybc> Sure i'll listen
[19:02] <popey> ok
[19:03] <popey> lets suppose you don't get one of the steps complete, whether that is completing the manual itself (which may happen), packaging it, or more importantly getting it into main.
[19:03] <popey> if you get it into main then someone needs to be responsible for its maintenance
[19:03] <popey> and _then_ and only then, there's the option of getting it on the CD
[19:03] <humphreybc> right - it's a long shot, I know
[19:04] <popey> sure, and I'm not saying it wont happen
[19:04] <popey> my concern is the amount of focus on getting it on the cd puts pressure on ubuntu because...
[19:04] <popey> even _if_ you did all those things, what if the project said "no"
[19:04] <popey> for whatever reason
[19:04] <popey> the project would look like prize assholes because you've rounded up a posse of people who say it should be on the cd
[19:04] <popey> and thats not the way ubuntu works
[19:04] <popey> we dont vote for what goes on the cd
[19:05] <humphreybc> I realize that. Being on the CD isn't the be all and end all of our project
[19:05] <popey> exactly
[19:05] <popey> but it's the 2nd question on your forum post
[19:05] <humphreybc> It's an ultimate goal, you have to reach for the stars to get to the moon.
[19:05] <popey> _before_ anything about content!
[19:05] <popey> surely content comes first, then distribution
[19:06] <humphreybc> The questions aren't in any particular order
[19:06] <popey> it doesnt work like that :)
[19:08] <popey> i can see a lot of value in the work you're doing
[19:08] <popey> and personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea
[19:08] <popey> but it needs to exist first :)
[19:08] <humphreybc> Well, what I can say is that I get things done - it's what I do. Unfortunately as projects like Ubuntu get larger and larger and are driven by companies such as Canonical, a fair amount of bureaucracy and stuffing around gets introduced that leads to delays for the end user. A lot can be achieved in four months with the right attitude and support, we've got both of those. Unfortunately Ubuntu has got into this rhythm of projec
[19:09] <humphreybc> Sure if I could rewind 6 months then I would have made sure the project was finished before asking to include on a CD, but, as I say above, I need to start raising awareness early on (even when the project is in its early stages) to start some of this decision making in motion. :)
[19:09] <popey> i think you're okay for awareness
[19:09] <popey> I'm also concerned that you're pissing off quite a few people who have been in the project for a while
[19:09] <dutchie> ah, humphreybc, you pinged earlier
[19:09] <popey> especially the documentation team
[19:09] <humphreybc> That's always bound to happen.
[19:10] <popey> no it isnt
[19:10] <popey> thats why we have a code of conduct
[19:10] <humphreybc> The docs team are looking at it the wrong way, they're seeing it as competition instead of collaboration.
[19:10] <humphreybc> dutchie: was just going to ask how your exam went, but i'll talk to you later :)
[19:10] <popey> they were here first humphreybc
[19:10] <popey> _you_ are the one competing, and not collaborating
[19:11] <humphreybc> I'm getting to collaboration, it's on my list of things to do - believe me. We've just started collaborating with the Community Learning Project
[19:11] <popey> the reason I mention it is because on the "justification" page you're quite rude about the official documentation
[19:11] <popey> "The Ubuntu Manual will have all the information in one place, instead of spread out all over the internet." - the ubuntu documentation _is_ in one place http://doc.ubuntu.com/
[19:11] <popey> "It will be easier to read, and will incorporate more screenshots and step by step tutorials." - implying the official documentation isnt easy to read, if thats so, collaborate and fix it!
[19:12] <humphreybc> By in one place I mean in a single file. So maybe the justification wording needs some work.
[19:12] <popey> "It will be written in a consistent style, so it is easier to follow." - the documentation team _has_ a style guide,
[19:12] <humphreybc> Yes, but just because something exists doesn't mean people will follow it.
[19:12] <popey> "And, as much as the Ubuntu Docs team try to keep everything up-to-date, often documentation remains unchanged from its original release. (In some cases, as old as 6.06) Our manual will be 100% current for every release." - there is no possible way you can guarantee that
[19:12] <popey> the documentation team _do_ follow the style guide!
[19:13] <humphreybc> Okay, okay, well as much as I'm enjoying this debate I'm afraid i'm going to have to have a shower and get some breakfast before I head off to uni
[19:13] <humphreybc> But I am keen to continue talking with you later
[19:13] <humphreybc> It's good to get some more opinions from the community
[19:14] <popey> would be good to listen and take on board those opinions rather than dismiss them :(
[19:14] <humphreybc> I'm not dismissing them, I am listening to what you're saying. I'll cut back on the requests for attention - the project has enough contributors now.
[19:15] <humphreybc> I am planning on working a lot more on content this week. Don't worry :)
[19:16] <popey> *sigh*
[19:16] <humphreybc> And on that note I'll be off! I've got a full day of uni so I won't be back for another 8 hours or so, popey, I suppose you'll be sleeping or something around then.
[19:16] <popey> yeah
[19:16] <dutchie> popey: personally, I think there is a niche for the ubuntu manual if we're careful to keep a bird's eye view of things
[19:16] <humphreybc> Okay, you can send me an email if you like,
[19:17] <humphreybc> cheerio guys
[19:17] <popey> dutchie: please dont fall into the trap of not reading what i wrote
[19:17] <popey> "19:08:11 < popey> and personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea"
[19:17] <aeonspire> i completely understand what you mean popey
[19:17] <dutchie> must have missed that in my quick scan of proceedings
[19:17] <dutchie> apologies
[19:17] <popey> np
[19:18] <aeonspire> I think lucid is very very ambitious but I'd propose to aim for April and when it's not ready everyone hopefully can agree that it takes a little more time to make it perfect and nobody loses face
[19:18] <popey> he is incredibly enthusiastic and is working hard on the manual, and it's to be applauded
[19:18] <aeonspire> the pressure can benefit the project
[19:19] <popey> the rudeness can only hurt it
[19:19] <aeonspire> true
[19:19] <popey> he's likely to piss the doc team off (more than he has already) with those wiki pages, and then to pronounce that it will be updated for every release... who is responsible for documentation..
[19:19] <popey> the doc team
[19:20] <popey> if he decides to get married, travel for a year, or drops dead then there is a legacy left for someone to pick up
[19:20] <dutchie> yeah, I'm aware that the folks in the doc team aren't best pleased with what's going on here
[19:20] <popey> which I am sure could happen, but making bold guarantees is not the way to do it
[19:22] <aeonspire> I think it will not be ready for Lucid
[19:23] <dutchie> I think it'll be close
[19:23] <aeonspire> hopefully yes
[19:24] <popey> yeah, it would be great to have a finished manual, especially on the cd
[19:27] <aeonspire> what he says about the doc as it is right now is often quite true
[19:27] <aeonspire> but maybe he needs to be more diplomatic :)
[19:29] <aeonspire> a manual that's included has to be for the absolute newcomers
[19:29] <aeonspire> advanced users probably know where to find the existing doc and how to use it
[19:32] <humphreybc> actually, scratch that I've changed my mind. I'm not too fussed about spending my morning in a 3 hour economics lecture, I might just read over the notes later on!
[19:33] <humphreybc> so, popey, what is your suggestion?
[19:44] <popey> tone down the justifications page for a start
[19:45] <popey> it really dismisses the hard work the doc team do
[19:45] <humphreybc> Righto i'll do that right now
[19:45] <popey> thanks, its much appreciated
[19:46] <humphreybc> no worries
[19:46] <humphreybc> I don't want to alienate the commnunity
[19:46] <popey> I'm impressed you guys switched to latex :)
[19:46] <aeonspire> The Community Docs are excellent, but 'unfortunately' are not structured 'for complete beginners' and do not 'necessarily' follow one 'guideline'.
[19:47] <aeonspire> how about something like that?
[19:47] <humphreybc> sounds good to me aeonspire
[19:47]  * popey trots off to make fish pie
[19:48] <dutchie> on less controversial matters, I think we need a way to compress the list of contributors down
[19:48] <dutchie> like columns
[19:48] <humphreybc> The credits?
[19:48] <humphreybc> Yes you're right. Bullet points won't work either.
[19:49] <humphreybc> That's just a temporary thing
[19:50] <aeonspire> maybe emphasize that the docs are targeted at users with at least a little experience and that they are good like this for them
[19:50] <aeonspire> that there isn't really a competition here
[19:50] <humphreybc> Sure. That's the truth, we're not trying to emulate the docs - we can't go into as much detail.
[19:50] <aeonspire> exactly
[19:51] <vish> aeonspire: mentioning "competition" isnt really necessary... it trys to put more stuff in for the imagination :)
[19:51] <aeonspire> of course you don't have to say it like that :D
[19:52] <dutchie> does it actually *mention* the docs at all at the moment?
[19:52] <aeonspire> the manual, as far as i understood, is meant to be a little like the quick start guide you get with a new product
[19:52]  * dutchie greps
[19:52] <dutchie> aeonspire: yeah, that's how I see it
[19:53] <aeonspire> and that's just something that isn't there yet
[19:53] <dutchie> "grep -ri 'help\.ubuntu\.com' ." says no :(
[19:53] <vish> IMO , justification page can be more about what the manual wants to be and less of what the docs isnt
[19:53] <humphreybc> okay, i'm working on it :)
[19:53] <humphreybc> (open to suggestions please)
[19:53] <aeonspire> but it should state at least a little how it is different from those
[19:54] <aeonspire> without judging them. i know you didn't want to do that but you could read it like that if you want to
[19:54]  * dutchie adds a little "What this manual isn't" section to the prologue
[19:54] <humphreybc> dutchie: heh
[19:55] <humphreybc> The reason I was a wee bit.... rude.. about other projects was because of the response I initially got from the docs team
[19:55] <humphreybc> They basically said "this is a waste of time, why bother? It's been tried before and failed, so it will never work."
[19:57] <aeonspire> so it will prove them wrong :) but you basically can do it without them but not against them i think
[19:58] <humphreybc> how's this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
[19:59] <humphreybc> oh yeah we sort of need someone for this blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/feedbackuf
[19:59] <humphreybc> Especially now that thread is featured on the UF home page
[19:59] <humphreybc> I would love to do it myself but I'm just too busy
[20:00] <dutchie> right, one "What this manual isn't" section written and pushed
[20:00] <dutchie> time for some food
[20:00] <humphreybc> heh
[20:00] <humphreybc> food - that seems like a good idea
[20:11] <pererik87> ianto: no problems...
[20:13] <ianto> pererik87:  Good to hear :)
[20:13] <humphreybc> ?
[20:13] <pererik87> haha:P
[20:25] <wolter> Hi humphreybc are you here right now?
[20:26] <humphreybc> wolter: sure am buddy, what's up?
[20:26] <wolter> I disagree on the way you ordered the subtopics of chapter 5
[20:26] <wolter> I think some things need to be introduced before others
[20:26] <wolter> well, not really.. hm
[20:27] <wolter> I think i can work it out.. ill complain later if necessary :)
[20:27] <humphreybc> hmm?
[20:27] <humphreybc> I didn't re order much did I?
[20:27] <humphreybc> or do you mean the ToC overhaul a few days ago?
[20:29] <wolter> no
[20:29] <wolter> no no.. is that you put software center like all the way up
[20:29] <wolter> well, after software management
[20:29] <wolter> but its fine really
[20:30] <wolter> because most of the people will only read that part, according to the forum feedback
[20:35] <humphreybc> yea.. well they'll want to know about software center before anything else
[20:35] <humphreybc> actually
[20:35] <humphreybc> it should come after a brief introduction to how software works
[20:35] <humphreybc> but that's in the prologue for now
[20:35] <humphreybc> I'm thinking it could be moved to Chapter 5. But really, software management is one of the biggest differences between Windows/Mac and Ubuntu.
[20:35] <humphreybc> that's why I stuck it in the prologue
[20:37] <wolter> oh yes
[20:37] <wolter> mhm.. and a big reason why many people get scared off
[20:37] <humphreybc> true
[20:37] <wolter> but what i focused on doing was writing how ubuntu's software management was better
[20:37] <humphreybc> so we need to make it clear it's simpler than windows..
[20:37] <wolter> than that of windows or mac
[20:37] <humphreybc> yeah i know, what you've written is good
[20:38] <humphreybc> you've got the basics done great - you just need to polish your phrasing and word choice etc
[20:38] <wolter> yeah
[20:38] <wolter> humphreybc, what latex editor do you use?
[20:39] <humphreybc> I just use gedit
[20:39] <wolter> I know an editor that renders your latex code as you type, in case you want it
[20:39] <wolter> at least for me, its easier to concentrate when I don't see all those \textsymbols{going on} all around
[20:39] <aeonspire> gedit rocks :)
[20:40] <dutchie> coughvimcough
[20:40] <wolter> lol
[20:41] <wolter> brb
[20:41] <wolter> like in an hour
[20:42] <humphreybc> what's the one that renders latex as you write?
[20:43] <dutchie> lyx maybe
[20:44] <dutchie> but that's not quite latex
[20:44]  * humphreybc is getting some breakfast
[20:58]  * humphreybc is putting two new title page proposals from David Nel on the wiki
[22:11]  * dutchie renames all the files and folders
[22:35]  * dutchie dislikes bzr
[22:35]  * dutchie wants git :(
[22:37] <humphreybc> hahahaha
[22:37] <humphreybc> what's wrong with bzr
[22:37] <dutchie> I don't like it
[22:37] <dutchie> I just renamed all of the stuff with mv, then tried to tell bzr about it, and it broke
[22:38] <dutchie> so now I'm having to do it all again with bzr mv instead
[22:39] <humphreybc> perhaps you could just use bzr add?
[22:39] <dutchie> I'm trying to preserve metadata and thigns
[22:40] <dutchie> things*
[22:40] <humphreybc> oh ok
[22:55] <dutchie> done
[23:22] <functionofxy> Hello. I'm a new editor in the project.
[23:23] <functionofxy> I want to be sure that I'm following etiquette--if I see a typo in a chapter that's not mine, can I correct and commit?


[00:06] <tsimonq2> agaida: I don't touch Lubuntu code, talk to Julien about that :P :)
[08:05] <agaida> tsimonq2: a) it isn't funny b) you guy captured the false not finished packaging - so it's your problem. c) Please be so kind and in case of LXQt never ever get packages from d/experimental
[08:05] <agaida> tsimonq2: and you should really fix it before the new LXQt release hit sid - without changes many (in other words - all) LXQt Packages will cause problems
[08:08] <agaida> tsimonq2: and thank you for you clarification - i'm not here to do your work, this is your project, so the ball is in your field.
[17:57] <tsimonq2> agaida: yes I said that intending to be joking a little bit, sorry
[17:57] <tsimonq2> agaida: so liblxqt needs to be fixed before the new LXQt release lands? what about it is broken?
[17:58] <tsimonq2> agaida: I'll be happy to make sure that if I don't fix it myself, it goes to the right person
[17:58] <tsimonq2> agaida: and what do you mean by "b) you guy captured the false not finished packaging - so it's your problem." ?
[18:26] <agaida> fixing is easy - get the current debian sources - you guys was a little bit to fast, after long discussions we integrated a virtual abi in the symbols file. Doing so make us independent from upstream if abi-bumps are needed - we use a new virtual abi instead of renaming the package
[18:27] <agaida> without this mechanism the new release would be installed and break existing packages without warning
[18:28] <agaida> mostly segfaults as usual - if you remember the xenial packages right from the start
[18:31] <agaida> tsimonq2: there are reasons putting packages into experimental - a) not production ready, b) pre-releases, really experimental stuff c) preparing releases, if uploading directly to sid would create a lot of havoc - and the packages that will be uploaded to experimental right now are c)
[18:31] <agaida> they will create a lot of fallout, if uploaded to sid
[18:32] <tsimonq2> agaida: so what you are saying is that the liblxqt package just needs to be updated to the current version?
[18:32] <tsimonq2> I see
[18:32] <agaida> use meld or bcompare to compare the debian dirs
[18:32] <tsimonq2> alright
[18:33] <agaida> i'm sure you will find the differences
[18:33] <agaida> :)
[18:33] <agaida> it's a little bit tricky - but cool. And it works reliable
[18:34] <agaida> thats why we discussed this strategy so long
[18:34] <tsimonq2> agaida: so which packages am I comparing? from GitHub and Yakkety? could you be a little bit more specific at what I'm supposed to compare the Yakkety package to?
[18:35] <agaida> you can apt source liblxqt0/yak and apt source liblxqt0/sid
[18:35] <tsimonq2> agaida: oh so from sid, okay
[18:36] <agaida> it make no difference if sid or testing
[18:36] <agaida> i would clone the whole thing from git
[18:36] <tsimonq2> agaida: GitHub or Debian's Git system?
[18:36] <agaida> debian
[18:37] <tsimonq2> alright
[18:37] <agaida> they should™ be the same - but debian is official
[18:37] <agaida> i only mirror the debian stuff to github in case that one will send us a pull request
[18:41] <tsimonq2> agaida: so I should make them the same? what am I fixing here?
[18:41] <agaida> erm - i think i should have a quick look at the current packaging - but basicly: yes
[18:42] <tsimonq2> agaida: alright I'll play with it
[20:16] <redwolf> o/
[21:54] <redwolf> o.o
[22:03] <tsimonq2> o/ redwolf
[22:09] <redwolf> ø


[16:25] <zaki> hi Kilos
[16:26] <Kilos> hi zaki
[16:28] <zaki> how are you Kilos
[16:28] <Kilos> still full of flu but ok ty zaki and you?
[16:29] <zaki> i'm oky :)
[17:11] <pavlushka> Hello every one and Kilos !
[17:11] <Kilos> hi pavlushka
[17:12] <pavlushka> Kilos: How was
[17:12] <pavlushka> the day?
[17:12] <Kilos> flu still bad but ok ty and you lad?
[17:13] <Kilos> much coughing and runny nose hehe
[17:13] <pavlushka> hehe
[17:13] <pavlushka> I am ok
[17:13] <Kilos> good


[00:00] <guiverc> https://jriddell.org/2023/07/28/openuk-awards-2023-open-for-nominations/
[00:01] <guiverc> renamed I suspect Bashing-om ^
[00:01] <guiverc> (I can screw up URLs on fridge [wordpress] when editing if I forget to be careful)
[00:02] <guiverc> https://siliconangle.com/2023/07/26/canonical-launches-real-time-ubuntu-intel-core-processors/ opens for me thoug
[00:03] <guiverc> s/thoug/though ^
[00:06] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Fixed the  Optimised Real-time Ubuntu is now ... URL :P
[00:09] <guiverc> the riddell one was issue I get; url I think it should being ^  (I assumed edited by Jonathan & URL change not rejected; thus my wordpress stuff)
[00:15] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Not sure how I screwed up Jonathan's URL - Think I have that one fixed also - try it now such that my cache does not interceed properly :P
[00:16] <guiverc> yep. jonathan's opens for me, thank you Sir.
[00:17] <guiverc> ps.   I've still not done my read thru (sorry)
[00:23] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Like putting dead men in a box - I do it one at a time :P The above proves that close proof reading is required !
[02:01] <guiverc> Bashing-om, I suspect we can drop "Details are provided." on the openssh summary... it's covered in the "This post discusses"  (I wrote i as I wanted the post longer but hadn't worked out how)
[02:03] <Bashing-om> guiverc: looking again :P
[02:03]  * guiverc still reading
[02:07] <Bashing-om> guiverc: I do like that "Details are provided" for the summary - Prompt the reader to see the details maybe.
[02:07] <guiverc> no prob.
[02:11] <guiverc> looks good Bashing-om , my read thru completed & that was all that  'grabbed me'.
[02:14] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Wonder of wonders nothing more for errors - For some reason this issue was challenging to get it together. Glad it worked out.
[11:52] <krytarik> Bashing-om: 1.) I feel like all the security-related stories should be moved from Press and Other to Blogo.  2.) There is an opening '[' missing in the title of one of the latter.  3.) There is unescaped "WiFi"
[19:29] <Bashing-om> UWN: Will start the push soonest - made krytarik's 3 edits and pulled "WIP".
[19:46] <Bashing-om> UWN: M/L is away - Doing the Forums posting next.
[20:05] <Bashing-om> UWN: Forums Posting completed - doing the re-directs next.
[20:15] <Bashing-om> UWN: Re-directs completed - Making the Discourse post next.
[20:24] <Bashing-om> UWN: Discourse posting also done - up next is a blog on Mastodon.
[21:04] <Bashing-om> UWN: Mastodon bloged - Pending now is release to the other Social Media as we have access to.
[22:47] <guiverc> https://fridge.ubuntu.com/2023/07/31/ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-798/
[22:50] <Bashing-om> ridge: Spot check - all looks good.
[22:51] <Bashing-om> Yukkie ! ^
[22:51] <guiverc> thanks.  posted to twitter, reddit (both links used; wiki + hub)
[22:51] <guiverc> (twitter used fridge only)
[22:52] <guiverc> posted to telegram
[22:52] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Do awy now with our evidence ?
[22:52] <guiverc> yep scrub away & thanks Bashing-om
[22:54] <guiverc> (posted uwn 798 to mewe)
[23:05] <guiverc> (still no posting to fb... still no working.cell.phone to receive 2fa sms)
[23:06] <Unit193> Curious, do you folks have a Mastodon/Bluesky/etc?
[23:06] <Unit193> Seems Mastodon, since it's in scrollback right there. :P
[23:07] <guiverc> I'm on popey's mastodon (instance?)
[23:14] <Bashing-om> Unit193: https://ubuntu.social/home .
[23:15] <Unit193> ...TIL
[23:16] <Unit193> I was expecting fosstodon or whatnot.  Anywho, guess not on Bluesky, but that one is still pretty new.
[23:16] <Bashing-om> UWN: Issue799 off to a roaring start :D


[06:29] <zooko> Folks: which is the deadline that would apply to uploading a new version of a current universe package? (Tahoe-LAFS)
[06:30] <zooko> Beta Freeze?
[06:30] <zooko> Tahoe-LAFS v1.6.1 is currently packaged in Lucid.
[06:30] <zooko> The current stable release of Tahoe-LAFS is v1.7.1.
[06:31] <zooko> I *hope* that Tahoe-LAFS v1.8.0 will be released by the end of August, but that is a few days past the Beta Freeze and anyway the Tahoe-LAFS schedule could well slip.
[06:31] <zooko> So, I guess I should try to get Tahoe-LAFS v1.7.1 uploaded for Maverick. :-)
[06:32] <zooko> Hm... how do I initiate that process? Tahoe-LAFS is not (yet) in Debian.
[08:57] <LucidFox> okay
[08:57] <LucidFox> when I try to build with pbuilder-dist sid armel build, it spams the console with
[08:57] <LucidFox> "qemu: Unsupported syscall: 335"
[09:32] <LucidFox> "qemu: could not open serial device 'stdio': Success"
[13:05] <bulldog98> what is the sence of lintian-override files?
[13:07] <umang> bulldog98, I think it is when a certain lintian error or warning clearly doesn't apply to you, or you are justified in ignoring a certain error/warning, you can override it.
[13:07] <bulldog98> ok thanks umang
[13:08] <umang> sure.
[13:08] <umang> bulldog98, I'm not sure about MOTU, but on Debian you have to inform anyone sponsoring your upload about the override and why you've done it while requesting for a sponsor.
[13:09] <bulldog98> umang: that’s not the point I simply wanted to update an package and understand why there are files like that
[13:09] <bulldog98> ^^
[13:10] <umang> bulldog98, ok.
[13:10] <umang> :)
[14:27] <ScottL> if i wanted to add a patch to package in a development release (i.e. maverick) what would i need to do?
[15:32] <lfaraone> ScottL: use "edit-patch" on the source, if it uses a patch system.
[15:35] <ScottL> lfaraone, oh, i know how to apply the patch, rather i meant how do i get the patch applied to the package in the archives ?
[15:38] <lfaraone> ScottL: you submit a debdiff or a bzr branch and request sponsorship.
[16:03] <ScottL> lfaraone, that's what i thought, thanks!
[16:03] <lfaraone> ScottL: which package?
[16:07] <ScottL> lfaraone, gnome-system-tools , this is the package that ubuntu studio uses for network connections (and configuration) but a patch was applied to disable the interfaces because network-manager was chosen as default
[16:08] <ScottL> unfortunatly the 10_disable_interfaces.patch prevents configuration of network, which prevents ubuntu studio users from configuring their network
[16:09] <ScottL> since gnome-network-admin (the actual package built by gnome-system-tools) is now in universe and not installed by default on ubuntu desktop i was hoping to remove the 10_disable_interfaces.patch
[16:09] <ScottL> thus given ubuntu studio users the functionality to configure their network
[16:11] <ScottL> it should be pointed out that ubuntu studio has chosen not to use network-manager because of its dynamic loading that it puts onto the cpu which intermittantly increases latency
[16:11] <ScottL> which should be recognized as a Bad Thing (yes, i capitalized that) for a multimedia distribution
[16:11] <azeem> ScottL: dynamic loading?
[16:16] <ScottL> azeem, my understanding is that network-manager does not apply a consistent cpu loading, i believe this is when it is searching for other wifi networks that are available
[16:24] <lfaraone> If I'm sponsoring a merge that has a debian-ubuntu debdiff, should I dget the latest Debian version and apply the diff?
[16:26] <BlackZ> lfaraone: yes, for example if you're going to sponsor foobar 0.0.1-1ubuntu1 and the debian package is 0.0.1-1 you will want the dsc of foobar 0.0.1-1 from debian
[17:21] <vish> anyone around to sponsor : Bug #604636 ?
[17:24] <Laney> vish: you are mistaken: that text is in the Debian description
[17:25] <vish> Laney: it was in the ubuntu diff
[17:25] <Laney> ...I just looked at it
[17:26] <vish> oh!
[17:26] <Laney> laney@chicken> grep cheesy debian/control                                  ~/temp/cheese-2.30.1 Cheese is a cheesy program to take pictures and videos from your web
[17:27] <vish> Laney: cheese_2.30.1-0ubuntu2.diff.gz , mentioned it , so am a bit confused :s
[17:27] <Laney> the diff.gz contains all changes, not just ubuntu ones
[17:28] <Laney> lsdiff -z *.diff.gz
[17:28] <Laney> but is this really the kind of thing that papercuts is about anyway?
[17:28] <Laney> seems exceedingly trivial
[17:29] <vish> Laney: this cycle the descriptions are getting a make over too
[17:29] <Laney> as you wish, it's your time
[17:30] <Laney> I suggest that you don't deviate from Debian over this though
[17:30] <vish> Laney: hmm , now I have to re-open upstream bug :s
[17:30]  * vish  need to figure that out..
[17:30] <Laney> http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer get this page bookmarked
[17:31] <vish> Laney: how to re-open a debian bug?
[17:31] <Laney> that page will guide you
[17:31] <vish> just now , did the -done reply
[17:31]  * vish reads :)
[17:40] <ari-tczew> MoM/universe: package hp-ppd 	0.9ubuntu2 	0.9-0.1 is it possible to upload 0.9-0.1ubuntu1 ?
[17:42] <crimsun_> no
[17:46] <crimsun_> ari-tczew: note that 0.9ubuntu2 will always sort after 0.9-0.1ubuntu1 (you can use dpkg --compare-versions to confirm)
[17:47] <ari-tczew> crimsun_: well, in this case only fakemerge is possible right?
[17:47] <ari-tczew> upload ubuntu3 with changes like in merge
[17:48] <crimsun_> ari-tczew: "fakemerge"? Are you meaning to drop the Ubuntu delta ("fakesync") or to perform a merge?
[17:48] <ari-tczew> crimsun_: perform a merge in ubuntu3
[17:48] <crimsun_> yeah, you'll have to merge it
[17:48] <ari-tczew> crimsun_: are you expierenced with sound system?
[17:49] <crimsun_> (do I really want to answer that question...?)
[17:49] <crimsun_> ask away
[17:50] <ari-tczew> crimsun_: because I don;t have a sound on maverick and I;m not sure who is a sound system mastermind - you or TheMuso
[17:52] <crimsun_> well, bugs are good, but what's the issue? Have you filed a bug using ubuntu-bug alsa-base?
[17:52] <crimsun_> (nearly always filing a bug is more efficient)
[17:56] <ari-tczew> crimsun_: and what I can write there? I don't have a sound?
[17:56] <crimsun_> ari-tczew: I need the apport-attached info more than I need your description of "don't have a sound"
[17:57] <crimsun_> sorry, I don't intend that to sound rude, but "no sound" is too vague to be useful
[17:57] <ari-tczew> crimsun_: why do you write that: (do I really want to answer that question...?)
[17:58] <ari-tczew> because I don't understand
[18:01] <crimsun_> ari-tczew: I've endured a fairly significant amount of grief for sound issues over the past five years.
[18:02] <ari-tczew> heh
[18:03]  * hyperair wonders what kernel maverick has.
[18:03] <hyperair> i know that 2.6.35-rc6 successfully borked both sound and bluetooth for me.
[18:03] <hyperair> not sure how those two are related though
[18:03] <crimsun_> maverick's currently released kernel is 2.6.35-rc5-based
[18:04] <hyperair> hmm then it can't be that =)
[18:04] <crimsun_> ubuntu-maverick.git has 2.6.35-rc6 merged (in 2.6.35-12.17); you can find it in the kernel ppa
[18:05] <hyperair> maybe i'll give that one a go. i might have screwed something up here on my own.
[18:26] <ari-tczew> does someone want to merge phpbb3?
[18:37] <MTecknology> Are there any chances of php5-5.3.3 making it into maverick?
[18:38] <MTecknology> or would that be an extremely high expectaction?
[18:38] <MTecknology> s/expectaction/request/
[19:03] <crimsun_> MTecknology: it'd be easier if it were already in Debian unstable
[19:05] <MTecknology> crimsun_: I'd consider trying to help get it there, I'm sure zul needs help. I remember the last time I tried to work with that package I wound up in an angry place for a week straight and then just gave up..
[19:06] <MTecknology> crimsun_: I should try again anyway, huh? - when's the import freeze?
[19:07] <MTecknology> oh.. that was a month ago..
[19:11] <MTecknology> crimsun_: maybe for 11.04, right? :)
[19:16] <crimsun_> MTecknology: it's never too late to help in Debian, and exceptions can always be requested in Ubuntu
[19:17] <MTecknology> crimsun_: I'll do my best - it was only release a few days ago iirc :)
[21:48] <Muscovy> .join #Ubuntu-MOTU-Sponsors
[23:52]  * Laney wonders what that channel is


[07:19] <gmendoza> good evening!
[10:18] <mdke> gmendoza: good morning :)
[11:56] <awardle> I was reading bug 478097 and wondered where you  keep the style sheets that convert docbook xml to xhtml?
[11:56] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 478097 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "help.ubuntu.com claims to be XHTML 1.0 Transitional but is not (affects: 1)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/478097
[13:08] <awardle> I was reading bug 478097 and wondered where I could find the style sheets that convert docbook xml to xhtml?
[13:08] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 478097 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "help.ubuntu.com claims to be XHTML 1.0 Transitional but is not (affects: 1)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/478097
[16:08] <gmendoza> mdke, ha!  :-)
[16:23] <Rocket2DMn> hey gmendoza , i commented on your patch
[16:24] <gmendoza> Hey thanks.  I just saw Connor comments and was working on the corrections.
[16:24] <Rocket2DMn> that would be me
[16:24] <gmendoza> hehe yes yes... hehe thanks, man.
[16:25] <Rocket2DMn> sure thing, good work
[16:25] <gmendoza> cool deal... so I'll spare the email for this question... I have been having trouble causing the validate to show a problem... did you use any special flags to cross-reference the other xml files?
[16:26] <gmendoza> I'd hate to be a repeat offender.. :-P
[16:27] <Rocket2DMn> no, what command are you using
[16:27] <gmendoza> from the parent directory, I just ran ./scripts/validate.sh serverguide/C/network-config.xml
[16:27] <Rocket2DMn> ah, that is your problem, it is confusing
[16:27] <gmendoza> and it came up with no erros... could i be the diff I gave you?
[16:28] <Rocket2DMn> you don't necessarily validate the file you're working on (in many cases, it will fail validation when it is actually correct, and vice versa)
[16:28] <gmendoza> haha... awesome.
[16:28] <Rocket2DMn> you validate the parent file, which in this case is serverguide.xml (it's always named the same as the directory)
[16:29] <gmendoza> well what do ya know... hehe that works.
[16:29] <gmendoza> thanks man... thats gonna help a lot.
[16:30] <Rocket2DMn> np
[16:31] <gmendoza> and I really appreciate the help with the rest.  Fresh eyes on something you're hyper-focused is very helpful.  I'm making the modifications right now.
[16:35] <mdke> I'm wondering whether we should get the server team more closely involved with reviewing and approving patches for the serverguide
[16:36] <mdke> it's so complex now that I'm not sure ubuntu-doc has the expertise to maintain it on our own
[16:38] <gmendoza> mdke, well I do think there's just a lot to maintain.  I think there's quite a bit that can be shaved off and make it more focused, rather than a collection of every blog on the net and how to install X, Y and Z.
[16:38] <mdke> yes, maybe that's right too
[16:39] <gmendoza> The old link title fro the main index was "Installing server applications", but once you got the the guide, the main index title was "Ubuntu Server Guide".  The former may have lent to many of the entries we see today.
[16:41] <Rocket2DMn> Perhaps we should be referencing external documentation more
[16:41] <gmendoza> The problem I see is that many of the applications are modified often, so we could be left with an exhaustive list of corrections to be made with each release.
[16:42] <gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, I agree.
[16:43] <Rocket2DMn> any app that requires serious configuration, like apache, should just reference their own pages
[16:43] <Rocket2DMn> some stuff, like maybe setting up networking, is OK to keep internal
[16:43] <mdke> I don't know if the fact that it's hard to keep something up to date is necessarily a reason not to include it at all, but I feel that the server team would have a lot of expertise to bring
[16:44] <gmendoza> mdke, agreed.
[16:44] <Rocket2DMn> excuse me while i step away to eat my soup
[16:46] <gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, for example, a LAMP install... it would be best to use the "tasksel" method... rather than simply a lits of all packages to apt-get install.  Mayeba simple reference to where the files are located, how to enable and disable a site, modules, etc... then link to external documentation for the rest.
[16:47] <gmendoza> I havent checked the apache documentation.. so not sure if thats what it is currently... hehe... just an example.
[17:00] <Rocket2DMn> gmendoza, yes that is true, tasksel is better
[17:03] <gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, so regarding the long strings... in this case, I don't believe wrapping would be allowed.  So leaving it as is is okay even though it runs off the page?
[17:04] <gmendoza> "as-is" would have been easier to read that sentence.
[17:04] <gmendoza> hehe
[17:06] <gmendoza> maybe a displainmer that says to read our docs you need a minimum 24" monitor.
[17:06] <gmendoza> ack
[17:06] <gmendoza> disclaimer even
[17:06] <gmendoza> hehe
[17:13] <Rocket2DMn> gmendoza, it would be niec if it could be wrapped, but if it cant, it cant
[17:14] <gmendoza> yup. np.
[17:21] <gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, you think it's appropriate to delete the previous patch from launchpad and reattach the new version?
[17:21] <gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, or leave it for records?
[17:22] <Rocket2DMn> it doesnt matter gmendoza
[17:22] <gmendoza> okay.. just wanted to be clear.


  I will need a place to crash for a week in November/December" 14 hours, 28 minutes and 37 seconds ago
[08:03] <thatgraemeguy> mornin' superfly
[08:03] <magespawn> theblazehen: is that graph live?
[08:03] <theblazehen> magespawn yeah
[08:03] <superfly> sup thatgraemeguy
[08:03] <thatgraemeguy> I don't think my American accent comes through strong enough on IRC.....
[08:04] <superfly> thatgraemeguy: nope, sorry
[08:04] <thatgraemeguy> congrats & good luck Mr. U.S.A. :-)
[08:04] <theblazehen> magespawn grafana + influxdb + collectd
[08:04] <magespawn> superfly: yes i am, should be busy moving the family up sometime December/January, but i am sure we can make a plan of some sort
[08:05] <superfly> magespawn: no worries, I've got other people I can crash with
[08:05] <superfly> thatgraemeguy: uh, thanks.
[08:40] <Kilos> eish, boet been in hospital for a week with pneumonia but not responding to any meds, so we going through to jozi tomorrow
[08:43] <superfly> :-(
[08:52] <paddatrapper> Hey andrewlsd
[09:00] <magespawn> superfly i have no idea what my time frame is, but keep in touch
[09:01] <magespawn> Kilos: sorry to hear that, why JHB? different hospital?
[09:02] <Kilos> he lives there
[09:14] <andrewlsd> Kilos: thought you meant "eish, boet. I have been in hospital"
[09:14] <andrewlsd> as opposed to "eish, my boet is in hospital"
[09:14] <andrewlsd> (neither is nice, though)
[09:21] <Kilos> oh sorry
[09:21] <Kilos> no my brother is there
[11:08]  * nlsthzn plays around with irssi... all very strange :p
[11:09] <Kilos> haha hi nlsthzn
[11:10] <Kilos> that was hard work
[11:10] <nlsthzn> alo uncle Kilos ... these cli based apps can be addictive but also difficult
[11:10] <Kilos> yeah
[11:15] <superfly> nlsthzn: I stick to Quassel :-)
[11:17] <nlsthzn> people that use KDE goes to stay with Donald Trump... or so I hear
[11:17] <nlsthzn> :p
[11:17] <Kilos> haha
[11:17]  * nlsthzn reboots to see if mouse cursor now changing >.<
[11:17]  * nlsthzn doesn't know how to quit irssi :p
[11:17] <nlsthzn> >.<
[11:19] <magespawn> "/exit" without the qoutes
[11:20] <magespawn> Maaz tell nlsthzn "/exit" without the quotes
[11:20] <Maaz> magespawn: Righto, I'll tell nlsthzn on freenode
[11:22] <nlsthzn> figures it out
[11:22] <nlsthzn> quit also worked
[11:24] <nlsthzn> grrr
[11:25] <jerit> vodacom won't give me the iphone 6 like I want
[11:25] <jerit> because paying customers don't get to have what they want
[11:28] <nlsthzn> superfly: unabridged marriage cert... first time i hear of it
[11:28] <superfly> nlsthzn: same here
[11:28] <Kilos> lol
[11:28] <Kilos> normally unabridged birth cert
[11:29] <ra1v3n>
[11:29] <nlsthzn> yup know about that one
[11:29] <nlsthzn> has cost me dearly over here
[11:30] <superfly> Meh, we're dealing with that one right now. Thankfully the US consulate is being nice to us, and we can use an official letter from the hospital instead.
[11:30] <nlsthzn> glad to hear :)
[11:42] <nlsthzn> best way to get confused, use an unknown base distro, add an unknown windows manager (without DE) and use unknown appliations ;p
[11:47] <jerit> how do I charge Old Mutual with harassment?
[11:47] <nlsthzn> carefully
[11:47] <nlsthzn> :p
[11:57] <nlsthzn> https://flic.kr/p/LimaYp
[12:00]  * nlsthzn goes to see if he can fix the theming
[12:05] <jerit> this is so weird... vodacom won't approve my contract application for iPhone 6 on uChoose Flexi 200 plan for 499/month but they just offered me an iPhone 5S on uChoose Flexi 110 for 199/month
[13:10] <theblazehen> nlsthzn heh. I saw the screenshot preview in IRC client, was like, how the hell did someone find my old screenshots that I posted on /r/unixporn?
[13:33] <magespawn> nlsthzn: can al use "/close window" closes the window you are currently in
[13:33] <magespawn> s/al/also
[13:40] <calhax> afternoon all
[14:31] <nlsthzn> theblazehen: :)
[14:31] <nlsthzn> magespawn: thanks, had a look online for some commands :p
[14:32] <theblazehen> $EDITOR: /usr/bin/nano
[14:32] <theblazehen> nlsthzn I am dissapoint
[14:34] <superfly> ^^ what he said
[14:35] <jerit> someone order me a pizza... wanted to make a sandwich now but bread is mouldy
[14:39] <nlsthzn> hey, either its nano or things like sudo gedit :p
[14:46] <theblazehen> nlsthzn Have you tried running gedit over ssh with X forwarding? To a host in the UK it takes around 10 min to load an xterm :(
[14:47] <nlsthzn> I actually was using my home pc as a prozy and running full desktop over ssh :p
[14:47] <nlsthzn> from home to work,
[14:47] <nlsthzn> same country over broadband which helps
[14:48] <theblazehen> nlsthzn yeah, I had like 250 ms RTT
[14:48] <nlsthzn> later found out about just using the ssh connection as proxy, no need for the excess bandwith for a graphical display >.<
[14:48]  * theblazehen runs most things in lxd containers on home pc from work as well
[14:48] <nlsthzn> but the work promptly blocked everythign :p
[14:49] <theblazehen> Pretty much everything except firefox, termite, and rambox for chat services (like irc)
[14:49] <theblazehen> nlsthzn blocked icmp? Dns?
[14:49] <nlsthzn> dunno what they did but their are constantly updating the firewall software
[14:49] <nlsthzn> clear
[14:50] <theblazehen> http://code.kryo.se/iodine/ http://code.gerade.org/hans/
[14:51]  * nlsthzn won't push his luck... need the work :)
[14:51] <theblazehen> heh
[14:52] <nlsthzn> transmission-cli for the torrents (rtorrent and magnet links don't seem to be friends)
[14:53]  * theblazehen uses aria2
[14:55] <theblazehen> basically wget but with more support for stuff (torrent / magnet links, http, ftp, metalink, sftp)
[14:58] <nlsthzn> wget is already so cool :p
[16:11] <calhax> anyone home?
[16:13]  * nlsthzn is home
[16:18] <Kilos> hi calhax nlsthzn
[16:18]  * Kilos been packing
[16:19] <calhax> how are you kilos?
[16:19] <Kilos> ok ty lad and you
[16:21] <calhax> good thanks, I see KDEnlive got a awesome new update
[16:29] <Kilos> hi Guest4994
[16:29] <Kilos> oh pavel
[17:05] <calhax> this is probably the first time ub ubuntu is working on my system 100%
[17:05] <Kilos> be happy
[17:06] <calhax> very!
[17:06] <calhax> I had to upgrade the wifi deriver it kept cutting out every 30 minutes, now its good
[17:07] <Kilos> i had that with 3g
[17:07] <calhax> also 16.04 not has support for hybrid graphics cards out of the box :D
[17:07] <calhax> Kilos: 3G driver?\
[17:07] <Kilos> battled for months then went to lappy
[17:07] <Kilos> i didnt look for drivers
[17:08] <calhax> LOL
[17:08] <Kilos> but now i did a clean install of 14.04 on desktop again and its working fine
[17:08] <Kilos> weird
[17:08] <calhax> I have to say the linux xommunity is stronger now than ever before, thanks windows 8 :)... and 10
[17:09] <calhax> xommunity ... aish
[17:09] <Kilos> modem manager is supposed to sort that without me hunting for extra drivers
[17:09] <calhax> yeah 3g usually works out of the box...
[17:09] <Kilos> it worked but kept timing out
[17:10] <calhax>  and after driver update?
[17:11] <Kilos> i just do apt update and apt upgrade normally and when something is sick i use synaptic to reinstall everything that shows when i type in the trouble app name
[17:12] <Kilos> but today had to purge skype and delete its conf files and then reinstall because it couldnt connect
[17:12] <calhax> haha, apt-get install -f
[17:13] <calhax> did it work?
[17:13] <Kilos> yes all good now
[18:13] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[18:15] <magespawn> good night
[18:46] <magespawn> good night all
[19:14] <nlsthzn> clear
[19:14] <nlsthzn> still finding irssi a bit cluttered (perhaps I should disable log on and partking messages)?


[13:55] <lubot5> <Mangesh Ghatol> I need of full Marathi Language supported Keyboard into Lubuntu either built in or downloadable from repo, just like Google Keyboard on Android.
[14:49] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> (Photo, 740x601) https://i.imgur.com/SFzQrHZ.jpg
[14:49] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> Hi everyone! I asked in of the oficial spanish lubuntu telegram group about the password hardness. The abstract would be this picture
[14:49] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> if you can't see it https://www.xkcd.com/936/
[14:50] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> as a corolary, if people come up with difficult passwords, they tend to write them down to not forget them.
[14:52] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> (and some write it down on post-it glued to te computer)
[15:19] <wxl> wth how was i not here?
 @wxl, Did you see the logs from Hans?
[15:24] <wxl> @tsimonq2: no i didn't see crap cuz it seems when services went down i had a late identification
 @wxl, Sent to you.
[15:26] <wxl> tl;dr xkcd?
 Kinda.
[15:27] <wxl> there's also plenty of holes in that argument
[15:28] <wxl> but c'est la vie, ie's goig to have to go
 @wxl, I think the general consensus I've seen is have a recommended but not mandatory password strength.
[15:29] <wxl> right
[15:29] <wxl> and that's what happens if we turn it all off
 Maybe ask upstream about having "recommended" values (in Cala) and have a warning dialog if it doesn't meet the requirements talking about the importance of decent passwords.
[15:30] <wxl> https://github.com/calamares/calamares/blob/743c19d8dd58bc7e7ee26b3fca769318d254d172/src/modules/users/page_usersetup.ui#L440
 But that's a QLabel.
 It only shows up if passwords don't match, if I recall correctly.
[15:31] <wxl> no
[15:31] <wxl> it shows up no matter what
 @wxl, Oh really?
[15:32] <wxl> yep
[15:33] <wxl> if you set min/maxLength to -1 and comment all libpwquality lines, there's no checking at all. still shows up.
[15:33] <wxl> even commenting out the whole passwordRequirements section
[15:34] <wxl> only thing you can't seem to use is a blank password
[15:41] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> yes, recomended but nor mandatory passw3d strength, and perhaps some recommendations of how do good passwords.
[15:42] <wxl> @Hans see that link above and see if you have suggestions for rewording it, if at all
 Hans Möller Did you ever get your translations issue solved as well with Calamares?
[15:45] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> @tsimonq2, no, I search if they have some translate page and couldn't fond it, maybe I didn't search enough.
[15:46] <wxl> you didn't @Hans :) https://www.transifex.com/calamares/calamares/
[15:49] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> @wxl, it's ok.
[15:49] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> @wxl, thanks!!
[15:49] <wxl> np
[16:14] <WizBright> how's everyone's friday? :D
 Good, how's yours? :D
[16:16] <WizBright> Not too bad. It's been a busy first week of classes :)
[16:21] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> good. I've made the translations change suggestions in calamares and I've translating some unstranslated strngs they have.
[16:26] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> what should this mean?
[16:26] <lubot5> Cre&ate
[16:26] <lubot5> ???
[16:26] <lubot5> Thinking in how to translate it.
[16:26] <wxl> looks like it is the word create with an erroneous ampersand in it
[16:32] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> good, done, there are only 3 strings pending in spanish, one that's KDE-plasma and better to leave to someone who uses Kde-plasma so it is consistent.
 @wxl, Uhm, you don't know what that means? :)
[16:51] <wxl> hhm?
 In Qt, for example that string can be activated by doing Alt + a
 So it's not erraneous. :)
 @Hans Möller, maybe can be translated to "Cre&ar"
[16:53] <wxl> wait, what?
[16:55] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> ???
 @wxl, Yup.
[17:03] <wxl> y
[17:04] <wxl> sorry, yup does it really clarify what it does
 Np :D
[17:05] <wxl> um, sarcasm
[17:06] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> We need a lesson from Sheldon.
 xD
[17:07] <wxl> or maybe sheldon needs a lesson
[17:07] <wxl> our own little sheldon
 @wxl, Be careful! It's leveling up quickly!
[17:13] <wxl> https://share.riseup.net/#lxoagm3ApRI9D8gf75SLNQ
[17:22] <tsimonq2> wxl: Bug 1788904.
[17:22] <wxl> saw it
[17:22] <tsimonq2> wxl: It's something the Ubuntu Desktop Team has had clearance to do for cycles now but has never been formalized.
[17:23] <tsimonq2> Answering the question of "can we upload new features to packages which are in the Lubuntu seed only"?
[17:23] <wxl> sure sure
[17:25] <tsimonq2> wxl: Thoughts on having the option (opt-in) to enable Compiz?
[17:25] <tsimonq2> I have it locally configured and it's sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good.
[17:25] <wxl> people can add it if they want
[17:25] <tsimonq2> Sure, I guess.
[17:26] <wxl> i mean i like awesome but i don't think we should build that opt-in into the installer
[17:26] <tsimonq2> Understood.
[17:48] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> @tsimonq2, compiz over compton?
[17:48] <tsimonq2> OH.
[17:48] <tsimonq2> wxl: Did I say Compiz? I mean Compton.
[17:49] <wxl> oh yeah a compositor would be nice
[17:50] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> I use xcompmgr now, less resource-hungre than compton, but apparently xcompmgr is dead.
[17:50] <wxl> that
[17:50] <tsimonq2> Well so is Compton. XD
[17:51] <tsimonq2> Hey WizBright, did you ever look at compositing?
[17:52] <tsimonq2> WizBright: If you wanted to keep it as close to the original Openbox as possible that's fine, but otherwise maybe built-in, opt-in compositing could be an option.
[18:03] <WizBright> we can work together with something
[18:04] <WizBright> I just haven't had any time to devote much to other bits of waybox :/
[18:05] <tsimonq2> WizBright: Sure, no problem.
[18:17] <lubot5> <Hans Möller> @Hans Möller, 3,5 vs 5,5 RES.
[20:49] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [T53: Must haves for 18.10 release] tsimonq2 (Simon Quigley) commented on the task: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T53#1192
[20:51] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [T53: Must haves for 18.10 release] tsimonq2 (Simon Quigley) commented on the task: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T53#1194
[21:56] <tsimonq2> Cool, so now USWGI and Lugito is just done with Cron.
[21:56] <tsimonq2> The last thing to do before I'd consider this "automated" is figure out mysql's global conf...


[18:42] <bryanruiz> hi.. i have a manually provisioned machine and im trying to change the ip address of it
[18:42] <bryanruiz> how do i go about doing that?
[18:43] <bryanruiz> the ip changed because of a new dhcp server (router)
[18:43] <bryanruiz> i cant seem to find the juju env commands in 2.1 to be able to run this script: https://gist.github.com/niedbalski/ffecd47ac9620a1d425a


[06:49] <dholbach> good morning
[09:31] <czajkowski> so the server team have created paper cuts
[09:31] <czajkowski> now I need to figure out we make that a paper jam
[09:31] <czajkowski> as it effects more than the server team but more teams/projects
[11:13] <czajkowski> right tick
[11:13] <czajkowski> working with ivanka on wednesday re paperjams
[11:13] <czajkowski> if anyone else has any ideas about thrse
[11:14] <czajkowski> *these
[12:18] <highvoltage> bonjour
[12:18] <czajkowski> howdy highvoltage
[18:20] <ball> Sometimes it's hard to get vendors to take us seriously.
[18:20] <ball> :-/
[18:58] <JanC> ball: vendors who don't take customers seriously will go bankrupt sooner or later  ;)
[18:59] <ball> JanC: ...or merge with Oracle
[19:29] <czajkowski> heh