[05:35] <roasted> hello friends
[05:35] <darkxst> hey
[05:36] <roasted> I dug up an article on google dated nov 1st citing that the ubuntu gnome team might not see an LTS release due to the understaffing. Is that still true or did the call for help yield positive results?
[05:36] <roasted> what's going on tim (tim, right?)
[05:37] <darkxst> the call for help, yielded a lot of people offering to help
[05:37] <darkxst> but not much more, only stratus_ss has actually done anything
[05:37] <roasted> I've recently been reading some articles on coding. I'm not in a position to offer any real help. It's quite a bummer to be honest.
[05:38] <roasted> Makes me wish I had picked up some books years ago.
[05:38] <darkxst> roasted, at lot can be done without much coding experience
[05:38] <roasted> like what?
[05:39] <darkxst> findind upstream patches and rebasing them against the current ubuntu packages
[05:39] <darkxst> and packaging is a whole different sport
[05:40] <roasted> is there a 101 tutorial to this? We use git at work which we push changes to to control our linux systems via puppet. I'm not sure if it's the same beast though.
[05:41] <darkxst> ubuntu uses bzr, which is inferior to git imo, but has nice integration with packaging tools
[05:41] <darkxst> not really quick tutorial, the packaging guides are massive, because there are so many different tools/ possible workflows etc
[05:42] <roasted> :/
[05:42] <roasted> is the LTS still in danger?
[05:42] <darkxst> as an official LTS, yes
[05:44] <roasted> I heard Chris Fisher say on G+ he would make a call out on an episode of LAS. I'm not sure if I missed it or if he hasn't spoken up yet.
[05:45] <roasted> Jupiter Broadcasting was cited #4 on the "linux advocates" list. It would be a good audience to target.
[05:51] <darkxst> maybe, although I have my suspicions that alot of people who follow the media, are just enthusiast that don't do much apart from troll on various forums and blogs!
[05:52] <roasted> understandable
[05:52] <roasted> always worth a shot though
[05:52] <roasted> all it takes is 3 sets of ears in a sea of trolls to help churn the process that much more.
[05:54] <darkxst> roasted, perhaps point Ali their way
[05:54] <darkxst> he is more on top of that kind of stuff than me
[05:55] <roasted> I just sent JB a message inquiring about it. Chris, who runs JB, commented on Ubuntu GNOME's G+ page saying he would mention it.
[05:55] <roasted> I admittedly haven't seen a recent Linux Action Show episode though. They do like 7 different shows.
[05:56] <roasted> I can't seem to locate it at the moment...
[05:56] <roasted> G+'s search abilities is strange.
[05:57] <roasted> anyway, message sent, we'll see what happens
[05:57] <roasted> I gotta check in for the time being though... work in 5 hours... take care.
[05:57] <darkxst> ok, cya
[07:23] <ashish> hi, im new to this distro but want to know how to install gnome 3.10 in ubuntu gnome ? is there any tutorial ?
[07:23] <ashish> or steps ??
[07:27] <darkxst> ashish, you need to install the PPA
[07:30] <darkxst> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/12/upgrade-gnome-3-10-ubuntu-13-10
[17:14] <roasted> is it possible to install gnome photos yet?
[19:31] <vince_> Hi sorry for my bad english.I use ubuntu gnome and I have a problem with the preview sushi. With then driver nvidia, teh preview is all white, not with the pilote nouveau. I use nvidia driver because the fan turn at maximum speed with the pilote nouveau. thanks for your help
[21:36] <darkxst> roasted, seems we missed photos in the updates
[22:00] <roasted> darkxst: big problem?
[22:02] <darkxst> roasted, just forgotten, uploading now to gnome3/trusty
[22:03] <roasted> nice
[22:13] <roasted> How many people do packaging to Ubuntu gnome darkxst
[22:19] <darkxst> only a few, but we are trying to expand that
[23:03] <roasted> darkxst: is Rico an official dev ? I see him posting commits everywhere but I haven't noticed his name on any team lists.
[23:04] <darkxst> yes


[19:32] <ajmitch> morning
[19:34] <ibeardslee> morning
[19:54] <mwhudson> morning
[20:30] <chilts> morning
[20:52] <hads> morning


[06:29] <jamespage> med_, well it might be in icehouse - but it should be ok in grizzly and havana
[07:35] <tucemiux> how do you guys suggest I configure the management of upgrades?  Do it automatically or use landscape?
[09:14] <cocoa117> what's the easiet way for linxu admin to get code onto all his controlled machine?
[09:14] <cocoa117> other then write a virus, :)
[09:20] <ciastek> cocoa117: i use ansible [1], but am not sure, if it's the easiest way. [1] http://docs.ansible.com/
[09:20] <mardraum> puppet or something? rsync and scripts?
[09:20] <cocoa117> ciastek, ok, thanks, i have look
[10:09] <cocoa117> shame, we have to pay for ansible for more then 10 machines. is anyone here using it for home usage?
[10:09] <smb> hallyn, No but I did not run XP. And it also depends on whether one uses xm or xl and xl only for Saucy because before that both were using the xen specific fork (aka qemu-xen-legacy)
[10:32] <cocoa117> No, wait there is github!!!
[11:20] <smb> hallyn, Ok, so potentially we want to pick that patch for Trusty. Saucy still had qemu-1.5 which should not be affected.
[12:14] <makara> hi. What certifications should someone follow interested in Ubuntu Server, Ceph - basically provisioning for a dev shop
[12:14] <daaaaaaaaa>  Hello! I want to mount a hard drive from one ubuntu server to another, want to mount it under like /home/user/hdd1, wich would be the easiest way to do this?
[12:15] <makara> mkdir /home/user/hdd1; sudo mount /dev/sdx /home/user/hdd1
[12:16] <daaaaaaaaa> Dont i need to use NFS to do this over internet?
[12:17] <makara> we need a server provisioned every day, and the sysadmin needs upsmarting because its taking too long :)
[12:54] <hxm> im using log watch, but I don't find if I can ban ips automatically
[12:54] <hxm> in example after N fail ssh logins
[12:54] <geser> take a look at fail2ban
[12:54] <rbasak> hxm: you want something like fail2ban for that
[12:54] <rbasak> hxm: I think there's another alternative too, but I don't remember what it is right now.
[12:55] <hxm> oh, thank you so much, there i go
[13:14] <hxm> fail2ban is pretty nice
[13:17] <rbasak> I don't like its principle of operation. Parsing textual log files feels error-prone. I wonder what arbitrary text I might be able to inject into your logfile
[13:17] <rbasak> ?
[13:17] <rbasak> And then fail2ban must parse that and it must run as root.
[13:24] <hxm> but log files are owned by root no?
[13:24] <hxm> supposed fail2ban prevents the brute force, not fix the already-joined-in
[13:25] <geser> didn't fail2ban have that error that it also triggered if you used the error as the ssh user?
[13:26] <PricelessTalk> rbanffy deny host is an alternative
[13:26] <hxm> at the moment I see nothing wrong
[13:27] <geser> CVE-2013-2178 which should be fixed now
[13:27] <rbanffy> PricelessTalk, ?
[13:28] <PricelessTalk> DenyHosts is an alternative to fail2ban
[13:29] <PricelessTalk> ssh only though
[13:30] <geser> http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2013/q4/535
[13:31] <geser> that's the issue I recently read about
[13:38] <rbasak> hxm: logfiles that fail2ban parse typically contain untrusted data. This exposes fail2ban to more risk than necessary, since in theory the banning could be done at failure time with no parsing of untrusted input.  You want to hide the evidence and pretend that people aren't trying to break in? Sure, use fail2ban then.
[13:41] <mardraum> "welcome to the internet"
[13:41] <hxm> no, I don't want to hide the evidence, I know this is the world where I am but I just don't want make it so easy
[13:42] <rbasak> Does it really make it harder? Attackers control many IPs. Banning them is like playing whack-a-mole.
[13:42] <hxm> okay I just miss the times of irc war
[13:42] <rbasak> OTOH, using fail2ban introduces more attack surface. What if someone targets fail2ban?
[13:43] <rbasak> It's a tradeoff. There's no clear answer. I just like it the other way.
[13:43] <mardraum> the times of irc war?
[13:43] <jpds> hxm: What kind of website are you running?
[13:43] <rbasak> (and I use AppArmor to contain any vulnerable daemons, use write-only backups to another system, etc)
[13:44] <hxm> i just have a dedicated server with a few websites, an commerce and other stuff
[13:49] <patdk-wk> why must fail2ban run as root?
[13:49] <patdk-wk> and how is the user injecting their own crap into logfiles
[13:50] <patdk-wk> if invalid user data is going into a log file, that is the same security issue as basically sql injection
[13:54] <jpds> patdk-wk: Sounds like they were faking the IPs of the connect to Apache, and fail2ban banned the IPs.
[13:54] <patdk-wk> that doesn't work
[13:54] <patdk-wk> if you spoof a tcp connection, the connection doesn't get created
[13:55] <patdk-wk> and apache doesn't log anything
[13:55] <patdk-wk> ip spoofing is limited to connectionless protocols
[14:01] <rbasak> patdk-wk: it must run as root to inject iptables rules, surely? And the user selects usernames, URLs, user agents, etc. All of that ends up in the log files.
[14:02] <rbasak> patdk-wk: you assume that fail2ban correctly understands the escaping mechanism of everything that writes to the log files, so that it can extract what it needs correctly.
[14:03] <rbasak> patdk-wk: and also that everything that writes to log files does in fact escape everything correctly.
[14:03] <geser> https://vndh.net/note:fail2ban-089-denial-service describes the problem nicely
[14:03] <patdk-wk> fail2ban runs in 2 parts
[14:03] <rbasak> I'm not saying that there's a specific vulnerability (I'd have reported it if I knew about any). I'm saying that it's at risk.
[14:03] <patdk-wk> a client, reading logs, and a server injecting iptables
[14:03] <sarnold> patdk-wk: iirc, there were problems with fail2ban being run on log files that just logged, without mangling, data supplied by clients. they didn't spoof their IP, they simplied supplied user-agent strings or user names or whatever that looked like new log entries. hey-prestro, fail2ban will happily lock out real admins
[14:03] <patdk-wk> personally, I never have it touch iptables directly
[14:04] <sarnold> the numbre of people surprised: 0
[14:04] <sarnold> hehe
[14:04] <patdk-wk> oh, that is just a logging issue then, or a fail2ban reading log issue
[14:04] <sarnold> logging issue
[14:04] <sarnold> not much fail2ban could do about it
[14:04] <rbasak> geser: thanks. That explains my point exactly.
[14:05] <patdk-wk> I'm logging to a database
[14:05] <rbasak> patdk-wk: doesn't matter where the issue comes from. That's why I said I didn't like its principle of operation.
[14:05] <patdk-wk> and use sql to locate abuse
[14:05] <geser> and you use regex in the SQL queries?
[14:05] <patdk-wk> no
[14:05] <patdk-wk> and if I did
[14:06] <patdk-wk> say I used regex sql, issue?
[14:06] <sarnold> patdk-wk: hah, yes, a well-formatted database would nicely side-step the issue.
[14:09] <patdk-wk> but the real issue is, sloppy log formatting, and/or sloppy regex matching
[14:10] <rbasak> No, the real issue is a principle of operation that is vulnerable to sloppy log formatting or sloppy regex matching.
[14:11] <patdk-wk> rbasak, if that was followed, there would be nothing
[14:11] <patdk-wk> cause nothing would be made unless it was perfect
[14:11] <rbasak> As I say, it's a tradeoff. Here, I don't think fail2ban is worth the tradeoff. It doesn't buy you much.
[14:12] <rbasak> Sure, there will be cases where fail2ban might save you. There also might be cases where fail2ban might make you vulnerable.
[14:12] <rbasak> IMHO, fail2ban isn't worth the benefit. YMMV.
[14:14] <hallyn> smb: mjt has cherrypicked it into debian-qemu yesterday:  http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-qemu/qemu.git;a=commit;h=bd910ee4b6e8e68bd1758d008c3cfcbccb6edb49
[14:14] <patdk-wk> ya, that whole fail2ban issue is sloppy regex
[14:15] <patdk-wk> they didn't follow basic rules of fixing the strings to the beginning of hte line
[14:15]  * patdk-wk wonders if there is a way to slip in a newline
[14:15] <smb> hallyn, Ok, so if we pull from Debian we will get it. If we do rebase again for T of course
[14:21] <hallyn> smb: yup i'm going to do a merge on march 1.
[14:21] <sarnold> vlad_sta_: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2014-February/000180.html
[14:21] <smb> hallyn, wfm, at least we don't have an issue to worry about for older releases. :)
[14:23] <vlad_sta_> sarnold: Hi. Nice, 3.11 kernel. Will try it.
[14:27] <sarnold> vlad_sta_: cool! I hope that one works for you. :) if not, please file bugs...
[14:27] <vlad_sta_> sarnold: yep. thanks for good wishes :)
[14:42]  * beisner is here.  good morning!
[15:52] <MavKen> can someone point me in the right direction... I want to create a script to automate creating a new user, creating a mysql username and db for that user and a few other things.  From the command line I want to enter "mavapp username" and then it plug in the username as a variable in my script file.  Is this possible and if so, what is that process called so I can do some googlin?
[15:52] <MavKen> Thanks
[15:54] <sarnold> MavKen: look at the adduser(8) manpage; there's a hook file, /usr/local/sbin/adduser.local, that you could use for creating your database users and so forth
[15:55] <MavKen> thanks!  will check it out
[15:55] <sarnold> MavKen: (of course if you don't want every newuser t oget database credentials and so forth, it might be easier to just write your own script for it all.)
[15:57] <MavKen> ok.  I have the script written, just not sure how to make it work from the command line.  For example I want to have 2 commands that I can use, "mavapp addclient username" and "mavapp remclient username" and use the username variable in the script.  Some of the script involves mailing out initial password and instructions to change pass.
[15:58] <sarnold> MavKen: the details of that would depend upon the language you've used; bash would use $1 and $2 and so forth, C would use argv[1], argv[2], and so on
[16:00] <MavKen> my only experience is as a front end developer using php/mysql... what would be the easiest?  Basically, I have a text file right now of each command I normally enter 1 by 1 for when I add a new client or remove.  If I can get this to work, would help avoid the need for cpanel
[16:04] <sarnold> MavKen: that is awfully close to a bash script; this might be helpful: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/BashScripting http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/index.html
[16:05] <MavKen> thanks
[16:13] <MavKen> is it possible to use php cli and run system commands as root?
[16:19] <sarnold> MavKen: yes, but that terrifies me. PHP is .. not a precise language.
[16:19] <MavKen> ok
[16:43] <shredding> Hey all.
[16:49] <shredding> Is this crontab meaning it's running at 15 past 12: 12 */4 * * *?
[16:50] <Pici> No. Its running every 4 hours at 12 minutes past.
[16:50] <sarnold> crontab lists minutes, hours, DOM, mon, DOW -- that ought to run at 0:12 4:12 8:12 12:12 16:12 20:12
[16:51] <shredding> Pici: So basically 6 Times a day?
[16:51] <shredding> Thanks!
[16:52] <shredding> sarnold: Thanks!
[17:24] <w0rmie> cp: cannot stat '/./home/server/.gvfs': Permission denied.
[17:25] <w0rmie> even i set /home/server to chmod 777 and recopy again i get the same permission failure.
[17:26] <w0rmie> i am under ubuntu server 12.4 LTS with xubunto GUI installed
[17:26] <w0rmie> any ideas?
[17:41] <smb> roaksoax, Looks like people start "complaining" about the progress of bug 1185756 ;)
[17:41] <roaksoax> smb: argh! sorry.. been pretty busy lately! I'll get to that!
[17:43] <smb> roaksoax, Cheers. :) Or find someone willing and with the right powers. ;)
[17:44] <roaksoax> smb: i'll talke care of it now. So the  https://launchpadlibrarian.net/151933272/debdiff-raring.patch is debdiff between what we have in raring/saucy against the latest?
[17:45] <smb> Let me make sure
[17:45] <roaksoax> smb: it is just raring it seems
[17:46] <smb> roaksoax, Yeah, I think it is (for the sake of simpler patch)
[17:47] <smb> So changes I mean what is on top of saucy/raring version
[17:48] <smb> The source package should be on chinstrap
[17:48] <smb> roaksoax, ~smb/4review
[17:48] <roaksoax> smb: cool thanks
[17:48] <smb> hm... not yet but soon
[17:50] <smb> ok now
[17:53] <smb> roaksoax, So I also put a debdiff between current P and the new R/S version. Of course that looks scary as one would expect
[17:55] <roaksoax> smb: are we sure we only want 8.4.3 (which is in saucy) or we want 8.4.4 what's in trusty?
[17:56] <smb> roaksoax, right now I'd say 8.4.3 and then check again before T gets out
[17:56] <roaksoax> smb: ok cool
[19:13] <rostam> HI how to set unlimited file handles on a particular user?
[19:14] <sarnold> rostam: does this user log in or is it a service user?
[19:14] <bekks> Whats the actual problem behind all that?
[19:14] <rostam> sarnold,  log in
[19:14] <RoyK> rostam: you can use ulimit or setrlimit(), but the global limit will be the max
[19:15] <sarnold> rostam: /etc/security/limits.conf
[19:15] <rostam> RoyK ,  sarnold  thank you.
[20:55] <MavKen> anyone happen to know if centos has something similar to tasksel?
[21:01] <MavKen> any recommended open source control panels?
[21:14] <w0rmie> how can i adjust the TFTP server timeout response?


[07:51] <acheronuk> is there an issue at the moment? had a period from (very approx) 1:45 am to 3:30 am Uk time where our CI uploads were not built and timed out waiting for the sources to get accepted.
[07:52] <acheronuk> when retried after that, all was fine
[07:52] <acheronuk> now that issue seems to be reoccurring since shortly after 7 am until now
[07:54] <wgrant> acheronuk: 2017-07-25 07:46:20 DEBUG   PPA exceeded its size limit (65800.00 of 65536.00 MiB). Ask a question in https://answers.launchpad.net/soyuz/ if you need more space.
[07:55] <acheronuk> wgrant: thanks. that was way under the other day, so did not occur to me to check. wonder what happened there
[07:57] <acheronuk> wgrant: umm... maybe as we rebuilt *everything* for new Qt 5.9 and janitor deleting of superseded binaries lags?
[07:58] <wgrant> acheronuk: When did you do that? Superseded binaries are deliberately kept for at least 24 hours to avoid confusing clients that haven't run apt-get update since their last cron.daily
[08:00] <acheronuk> wgrant: did a rebuild of our unstable branch builds for artful starting midnight Sun/Mon, then our stable branch builds starting midnight last night
[08:01] <wgrant> acheronuk: I've increased your quota a bit to unblock you.
[08:03] <acheronuk> wgrant: thanks. would only do that on a big thing like testing out packaging for the upcoming Qt 5.9 landing in artful, so a once in a cycle thing if that. still I know now to check our ppa space beforehand!
[08:04] <wgrant> acheronuk: Yep. You can also expedite removal (6-12 hours, rather than 24-48) by explicitly deleting old packages rather than just letting them be superseded. But hopefully not needed too often.
[08:05] <acheronuk> ack. useful to know :)
[08:09] <acheronuk> wgrant: I guess there is know way of getting rejection reasons like this from the LP api rather than an email? our CI just doesn't know, so can't report the reason at the moment
[08:09] <acheronuk> *no way
[08:09] <wgrant> acheronuk: They're rejected before they even get near the database, unfortunately.
[08:10] <acheronuk> yep, that's what I figured. oh well
[13:43] <zyga-ubuntu> hey, I'm seeing some spam bug reports about amazon prime
[13:43] <zyga-ubuntu> if there's any system that filters this out you may want it to look at
[13:43] <zyga-ubuntu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/command-not-found/+bug/1706298
[13:43] <zyga-ubuntu> feel free to block the reporter as well
[13:44] <zyga-ubuntu> there seems to be some hits when searching for the spam topic: https://launchpad.net/+search?field.text=Amazon+Prime+Membership
[13:46] <cjwatson> wgrant: ^-
[13:53] <wgrant> cjwatson, zyga-ubuntu: Fixed.
[14:28] <edmorley> hi! I'm trying to create a new account/log into launchpad, however after creating the Ubuntu One account, and following the "Yes, log me in" link on the "Personal Data Request" page, I get a "Sorry, something just went wrong in Launchpad.". Any ideas?
[14:28] <edmorley> I've tried in two different browsers, and also deleted the Ubuntu One account and started over, to no avail.
[14:36] <cjwatson> edmorley: Can you tell us the OOPS ID?  (And don't delete accounts and start over - you'll at best only make it worse.)
[14:37] <edmorley> cjwatson: hi! it's OOPS-0b6b6d13baa469f8c2836acca55676d8 -- many thanks
[14:38] <edmorley> yeah I also learnt that usernames aren't put back in the pool after the account is deleted, oh well!
[14:41] <zyga-ubuntu> wgrant, cjwatson: thank you both
[14:42] <cjwatson> edmorley: I guess you previously tried "edmorley" ?
[14:42] <edmorley> yeah
[14:53] <cjwatson> edmorley: Try now?  I left it at "edmorley.", but you should be able to rename to "edmorley" once you're logged in
[14:57] <edmorley> cjwatson: that worked great - thank you :-)
[21:11] <ahasenack> hi guys, I have a review queue question that I hope is not too complex
[21:11] <ahasenack> when I request a review from a group, like ~canonical-server,
[21:11] <ahasenack> it shows up here: https://code.launchpad.net/~canonical-server/+activereviews
[21:11] <ahasenack> my issue is that when someone from that group grabs the slot, the MP link disappears from that page
[21:12] <ahasenack> launchpad has another kind of review dashboard page that I have seen, and that's when you are listing +activereviews of a project, not a group
[21:12] <ahasenack> there you have nice sections: reviews I can do, reviews I'm doing, reviews I'm waiting on
[21:12] <ahasenack> and even when all slots are grabbed, the MP link remains in that dashboard page until the MP is merged
[21:19] <cjwatson> ahasenack: that seems not so much a question and more a bug that you should file :-)  (I mean, I think it may have been a deliberate design decision to do it that way, but if it was then I'd tend to agree that it's of questionable usefulness)
[21:22] <ahasenack> I see


[13:27] <Guest49562> Hi there, My firefox 41.0.1 on ubuntu 15.04 crashes when I want to open Google Transalte. I have not experienced problem with any other site. Do you have any suggestion where the problem might lie?
[13:34] <gQuigs> Guest49562: I would try a Firefox Refresh - https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/refresh-firefox-reset-add-ons-and-settings?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=reset-firefox-easily-fix-most-problems
[13:49] <Guest49562> gQuigs: Thanks a lot for the suggestion. It worked!
[13:54] <gQuigs> :)


[02:55] <snap-l> rick_h__: Awwwwww
[07:55] <_stink_> rick_h__: haha, those are awesome
[17:21] <rick_h__> wow, a 10hr night of sleep and 3hr nap later and I almost feel human again
[18:02] <snap-l>  rick_h__ Welcome back to the land of the living.
[18:02] <rick_h__> thanks!
[18:02] <snap-l> How was the trip home?
[18:02] <rick_h__> so so
[18:02] <rick_h__> I just stayed up the night before
[18:02] <rick_h__> so was running out of steam
[18:02] <rick_h__> and hard time concentrating on anything, reading, computing, etc
[18:02] <rick_h__> so that last flight was just not fun
[18:03] <snap-l> Ugh
[18:03] <snap-l> On the plus side, I have a copy of Illuminati that I can bring to CHC. ;)
[18:03] <rick_h__> yea, 8hr is really a nice limit for a flight. I can't imagine the guys going to Australia
[18:03] <rick_h__> who are just now getting home kind of thing
[18:03] <snap-l> I can't either
[18:04] <snap-l> or even the ones that have the 8 hr flights with a few layovers
[18:04] <snap-l> I think I'd want to shoot someone.
[18:05] <rick_h__> yea, it's a bit crazy
[18:05] <rick_h__> but yea, everything was really sweet. So glad I got to go
[18:05] <snap-l> Yeah, it sounds like you had a great time over there.
[18:06] <snap-l> Not every day you can say you redid Launchpad's widget library. ;)
[18:06] <rick_h__> yea, very disconnected
[18:06] <rick_h__> but lots of good work done
[18:06] <rick_h__> though I got a bit sucked in and worked after/early most days
[18:06] <snap-l> rick_h__: I think that's the idea.
[18:06] <snap-l> You start living / breathing work
[18:07] <snap-l> If you tried to do a sprint like that remotely, it wouldn't be as effective
[18:07] <snap-l> but in the same room, with people getting excited, means you can work miracles
[18:07] <rick_h__> yea, well a lot of it was good social time. I've never been in a room where the americans were such a minority in some cases
[18:07] <snap-l> it's why people don't run marathons by themselves unless they're crazy.
[18:07] <rick_h__> right
[18:10] <rick_h__> snap-l: so how was the work week? You've not run screaming yet? :)
[18:11] <snap-l> heh
[18:11] <snap-l> It was pretty good.
[18:11] <snap-l> John's starting me off on some technical debt.
[18:11] <snap-l> with the AP stuff
[18:11] <rick_h__> yea, that's always good
[18:12] <rick_h__> yea, that's been meant to be cleaned for a while
[18:12] <snap-l> It's needed it
[18:12] <rick_h__> I know that was what we were going to hire someone to do and I was going to help train/bootstrap them
[18:12] <rick_h__> it's nice because you can start there and it's a smaller easier bit to get involved with
[18:13] <snap-l> Yeah, I think the sysadmin experience was also a plus because I think about things like process locking during the design phase. ;)
[18:13] <rick_h__> :)
[21:29] <snap-l> What's shaking?
[23:41] <rick_h__> party


[15:00] <bac> #startmeeting
[15:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is bac.
[15:00] <jelmer> me
[15:00] <bac> hello, who is here today?
[15:00] <abentley> me
[15:00] <bigjools> me
[15:00] <sinzui> me
[15:00] <jcsackett> me
[15:00] <benji> me
[15:00] <mrevell> me
[15:00] <deryck> me
[15:00] <EdwinGrubbs> me
[15:00] <henninge> me
[15:00] <flacoste> me
[15:00]  * benji things it should be "I" :P
[15:00] <mars> me
[15:01] <mars> benji, "moo" is always fun
[15:01] <benji> heh
[15:01] <salgado> me
[15:02] <gary_poster> me
[15:02] <danilos> me
[15:02] <gmb> Me
[15:02] <allenap> me
[15:02] <danilos> oh, capital "Me" is here as well
[15:03] <bac> great, let's start.  pretty light agenda today
[15:03] <bac> [topic] agenda
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[15:03] <bac> * Roll call
[15:03] <bac>  * Agenda
[15:03] <bac>  * Outstanding actions
[15:03] <bac>  * Mentat update.
[15:03] <bac>    * Salgado (ui)
[15:03] <bac>    * StevenK (code)
[15:03] <bac>    * MRevell (ui)
[15:03] <bac>  * New items
[15:03] <bac>    * Should reviewers expect the review template to be used? - abentley
[15:03] <bac>    * Integrating test timing into reviews, recap.  -bac
[15:03] <bac>  * Peanut gallery
[15:03] <bac> [topic] mentat update
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  mentat update
[15:03] <bac> salgado, getting any more UI reviews?
[15:03] <gary_poster> bac, benji should be in mentat update
[15:04] <salgado> nope
[15:04] <bac> mrevell, getting any?
[15:04] <bac> thanks, gary_poster
[15:04] <mrevell> bac, No.
[15:04] <salgado> haven't done any in a long while
[15:04] <jelmer> I will have one tomorrow
[15:04] <jcsackett> bac: i'm in the mentoring process as well.
[15:04] <danilos> I've also asked henninge to be my UI mentor as well, so I'll be starting as UI reviewer one of these days as well
[15:04] <sinzui> salgado, me too
[15:04] <bac>  sorry benji and jcsackett.  updated on the wiki now
[15:04] <benji> np
[15:04] <danilos> perhaps there's no need for UI reviewers anymore
[15:05] <flacoste> danilos: why?
[15:05] <sinzui> salgado, may be should agree that mentoring ui <= 3 month
[15:05] <danilos> flacoste, why would I want to be, or why there might not be a need?
[15:05] <sinzui> salgado, maybe you should graduate next week because you have all the experience you are ever going to get
[15:05] <danilos> flacoste, it's just that people haven't been getting any UI branches for review
[15:05] <abentley> danilos, there's certainly a need for UI review, but maybe not one so frequent as to demand specialized reviewers.
[15:05] <bac> sinzui: +1
[15:06] <EdwinGrubbs> benji has been doing a good job, but we haven't been getting very many requests for reviews on Wednesday
[15:06] <salgado> sinzui, well, I'm not sure a time limit is a good idea as in some periods (like now) we may stay a long time without doing any reviews
[15:06] <danilos> flacoste, i.e. mrevell and salgado hasn't gotten any in a week, so I am wondering if it's smart to try to achieve that specialization with unused workforce we've got
[15:06] <jcsackett> EdwinGrubbs: i've found the same thing on thursdays--i think maybe it's an end of year slow down?
[15:06] <flacoste> jcsackett: probably is
[15:07] <henninge> I have not had that many, either.
[15:07] <bac> jcsackett, flacoste: but with the BugJam on perhaps it'll pick up?
[15:07] <salgado> danilos, fwiw, I was doing 3 or so reviews a week when I started.  just lately there doesn't seem to have been many people working on UI
[15:07] <abentley> fwiw, monday OCR is rarely busy.
[15:07] <flacoste> bac: number of reviews should yes
[15:07] <flacoste> salgado, danilos: yeah, UI reviews usually come in burst
[15:07] <flacoste> when a new feature is developped
[15:08] <danilos> salgado, right, thanks; I don't want to become a mentat as well and thus distribute the low UI activity over more people
[15:08] <bac> danilos: perhaps you have a point that we don't need new UI reviewers in the pipeline if we can't get enough to get the current mentats trained.
[15:08] <danilos> bac, right, that was my point
[15:08] <jcsackett> bac: maybe get a queue of people willing to be UI and phase them in when the next feature rush begins?
[15:08] <abentley> danilos, Sorry, I thought you meant the whole concept was outdated.
[15:09] <bac> abentley: yeah, me too
[15:09] <danilos> abentley, oh no, sorry for confusing you guys :)
[15:09] <bac> [topic] Should reviewers expect the review template to be used? - abentley
[15:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Should reviewers expect the review template to be used? - abentley
[15:10] <abentley> Back when I  started, there was a template that was expected to be used for code review.
[15:10] <abentley> It's basically preserved in the lpreview_body plugin.
[15:10] <abentley> It expects a summary, pre-implementation notes, implementation details, lint, etc.
[15:11] <abentley> I use it, but I find that basically no one else does.
[15:11] <bac> abentley: i always use it and really like it when others do.
[15:11] <abentley> Okay, maybe that's too strong.
[15:11] <jcsackett> abentley: that template was provided to me when i started. i've seen it from a few others (though sometimes not with all sections).
[15:11] <bigjools> I use it sometimes.  It's massive overkill for simple branches.
[15:11] <abentley> There are a bunch of people not using it.
[15:11] <bac> personally i like it because i'm both lazy and forgetful.  it helps with both.
[15:11] <deryck> I don't use it.  there I owned up to it. ;)
[15:12]  * deryck looks around at the rest of the room
[15:12] <deryck> I feel it's too prescriptive.
[15:12] <bac> bigjools: the sections that are overkill are easily deleted or marked 'n/a'
[15:12] <abentley> bac, +1
[15:12] <jcsackett> deryck: could you unpack that a bit? not sure what you mean.
[15:12] <bigjools> that's extra hassle, particularly if I use the web ui
[15:12] <flacoste> actually, web ui is the major problem there
[15:12] <bac> bigjools: oh.  i *never* use the web ui...
[15:12] <flacoste> i most often use the web ui to submit branches
[15:13] <flacoste> (ok, i don't submit that many anymore...)
[15:13] <jcsackett> i use the web ui, and find that pasting in the template as a starting point isn't that big a deal.
[15:13] <gary_poster> more people may be using it soon, if the switch to using tarmac is successful
[15:13] <flacoste> i'd use the template
[15:13] <gary_poster> it == the web
[15:13] <flacoste> if it was easy to get at
[15:13] <abentley> gary_poster, why?
[15:13] <flacoste> gary_poster: why?
[15:13] <bigjools> if the branch is cleaning up, or a trivial bug, I find that template too prescriptive, annoying to edit and a waste of time.
[15:13] <gary_poster> because you'll be able to submit without using a commandline if you want
[15:13] <bigjools> however, it's useful for a more complex change
[15:14] <abentley> gary_poster, I think you are talking about lp-land, not lp-propose.
[15:14] <jelmer> It'd be nice if it the template was available in the web interface as well, not just in "bzr send".
[15:14] <gary_poster> oh, you are right, abentley.  thanks, sorry
[15:14] <jelmer> I'm also guilty of not using the template now that I've switched to using the web interface primarily for proposing merges.
[15:15] <abentley> jelmer, it's not just in bzr send, it's also in lp-propose, and that's preferred.
[15:15] <gary_poster> not using template: me too.
[15:15] <abentley> jelmer, I don't see how the web site is going to run lint on your local machine :-)
[15:15] <bigjools> I stopped using lint when it kept coming up with a million* false positives
[15:15] <abentley> Personally, I think it's a useful reminder of key things.
[15:16] <abentley> Like who the pre-implementation call was with.
[15:16] <abentley> I agree it's overkill for trivial bugs.
[15:17] <bigjools> pre-imp details are the most useful thing on that template
[15:17] <abentley> bigjools, it's pretty good for me now.
[15:17] <abentley> bigjools, lint is pretty good for me, I mean.
[15:17] <benji> abentley: indeed; I use it as a checklist; I make sure that I've considered every item on the template, even if I don't include it
[15:17] <bigjools> ok I'll try it again, thanks
[15:17] <bac> i guess the bigger issue is whether reviewers think the merge proposals are providing all of the expected information, whether people use the available tools, or not.
[15:18] <flacoste> abentley: does lp-propose submit the template on the web UI?
[15:18] <abentley> bac, also, if we're going to include test execution times, it would be sensible to add them to the template.
[15:18]  * flacoste doesn't know about lp-propose
[15:18] <bigjools> s/expected/useful and pertinent/
[15:18] <bac> those that i see that use the template tend to cover all of the bases.  doesn't do a thing about the quality of the prose, though.
[15:19] <abentley> flacoste, it opens up your editor to edit the description, then loads the proposal in the browser when it's done.
[15:19] <flacoste> bac: dev writes in code :-p
[15:19] <flacoste> abentley: then I should be using that!
[15:19] <jcsackett> abentley: that sounds like the coolest thing ever.
[15:19] <flacoste> i think it might just be that people don't know about lp-propose
[15:19] <danilos> I find it's hard to find out about it
[15:19]  * jcsackett never heard about it.
[15:19] <deryck> bac: that's part of my issue with the template, sometime those who use it, just list a bunch of info, rather than writing a couple paragraphs explaining what is happening in the code, which is often more useful to me.
[15:19] <danilos> I used to have one of previous submit plugins with the template, but now I type most of the relevant sections out of my head
[15:20] <bac> abentley: i think part of the problem is new people don't know how to use your plug-in and some experienced folks forgot.  could you send out a reminder email or a pointer to the wiki?
[15:20] <jelmer> I was vaguely aware of it, but didn't know it was the proper way to propose merges instead of the web UI.
[15:20] <danilos> it's simply hard to find what the latest and best way to submit MPs is (i.e. appropriate plugin and such: I knew nothing about lp-propose either)
[15:20] <flacoste> jelmer: it sounds like it's a wrapper around the uI, which is exactly what we need
[15:20] <abentley> jelmer, I meant that it's preferred over "bzr send", not necessarily the web UI.
[15:21] <mars> danilos, yes, that is odd - we used to do that just fine (years ago, when I joined)
[15:21] <abentley> danilos, it ships as part of bzr :-P
[15:21] <jelmer> abentley: don't you still need lpreview_body to actually get the template though?
[15:21] <abentley> jelmer, yes, you do.
[15:22] <danilos> abentley, heh, right, that's probably why it's harder for people to find out about it: if you are not actively looking for it and you've been using something like lpreview_body or whatever in the past, you wonder why it doesn't work as well anymore
[15:22] <abentley> jelmer, since it's packaged, we could add it to lp-developer-dependencies, if it's not already.
[15:22] <danilos> (and I was actually stuck on whatever was before lpreview_body with my "lpsend" as the alias)
[15:23] <jelmer> abentley: I think that's a good idea
[15:23] <bac> abentley: can you send that reminder email and pursue getting it added to lp-d-d?
[15:23] <abentley> danilos, I bear some blame, since I wrote it and didn't promote it.
[15:23] <abentley> bac, Sure.
[15:23] <bac> abentley: thanks for bringing up the topic...and for writing the tool.
[15:23] <bac> moving on
[15:23] <bac> [topic]  Integrating test timing into reviews.  --bac
[15:23] <MootBot> New Topic:   Integrating test timing into reviews.  --bac
[15:24] <bac> last week we started the discussion about paying attention to test timing.  we've had a lot of discussioin on the mailing list about what that means.
[15:24] <bac> has anyone tried and have successes or failures to report?
[15:25] <mars> Aaron added two tests yesterday, timing was 2 seconds
[15:25] <bigjools> timing info on its own means nothing to me
[15:25] <mars> TBH, I didn't know how far to pursue it - how much was setup, how much existing tests, what it ok?
[15:25] <mars> 'what is ok'
[15:26] <flacoste> bac: given that we are planning on rewriting the persistence layer and that there is controversy on the metrics side
[15:26] <flacoste> why don't we move on to another aspect?
[15:26] <flacoste> and revisit this later, once the story around persistence and tests is more clear
[15:26] <bac> francis, sure we can do that
[15:26] <flacoste> well, that's not an edict!
[15:26] <flacoste> just proposing
[15:26] <bac> i unwisely thought this would be an easy one to start with
[15:26] <bigjools> I concur :)
[15:27] <bac> i'll propose something next week
[15:27] <bac> [topic] peanuts
[15:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  peanuts
[15:27] <bigjools> o/
[15:28] <bac> yes bigjools?
[15:28] <abentley> Who's seen A Charlie Brown Christmas this year? :-)
[15:28] <bac> are you really left handed?
[15:28] <bigjools> ...
[15:28] <danilos> bac, that was him with his back turned on us
[15:28] <gary_poster> :-)
[15:28]  * bigjools is speechless for the first time in ages
[15:28] <bigjools> anyway
[15:28] <danilos> but he's also a slow typist (especially with only one hand)
[15:29]  * gary_poster laughs
[15:29]  * bigjools sees the gutter approaching
[15:29] <mars> lol
[15:29] <bigjools> I want to talk about the mailing list thread that jelmer brought up
[15:29] <bigjools> regarding api only functions in model classes
[15:29] <jelmer> bigjools: thanks, I forgot about that
[15:30] <bigjools> I think it's a good idea to prepend api_ in front of any method that's only used in the api
[15:30]  * danilos is still behind on his mail
[15:30] <bigjools> anyone got any comments?
[15:30] <abentley> bigjools, I think it's a good idea.
[15:30] <bigjools> (with liberal use of export_as of course)
[15:30] <danilos> other than that we should have made API a separate layer in the first place? no :)
[15:31] <bigjools> I assume that's coming
[15:31] <danilos> anyway, "api_" as the prefix for API-only methods is probably good
[15:31] <bigjools> this is a stopgap
[15:31] <abentley> bigjools, it makes me sad that the API has the zope naming convetion, though.
[15:31] <jelmer> abentley: is that documented somewhere?
[15:31] <bigjools> we should change that *now* if we can
[15:31] <bigjools> but it might be too late
[15:31] <abentley> jelmer, Not as a special thing.  All our code has the zope naming convention.
[15:31] <mars> danilos, makes sense: model -> views (HTML), model -> api-layer (JSON)
[15:31] <jelmer> abentley: I found a couple of methods which explicitly used "export_method_as" and used names with underscores and lowercase characters.
[15:31] <gary_poster> I think it's too late myself
[15:31] <leonardr> bigjools: a while ago we decided it was too late
[15:32] <gary_poster> consistency is more valuable IMO
[15:32] <leonardr> and now it's even later
[15:32] <bigjools> :(
[15:32] <abentley> gary_poster, definitely too late for 1.0 :-(
[15:32] <gary_poster> yup
[15:32] <bigjools> maybe on the next version bump?
[15:32] <bigjools> then we can make everything consistent
[15:32] <bigjools> it's a bit of a mess right now
[15:33] <danilos> E_TOOMUCHWORK
[15:33] <danilos> at least imo
[15:33]  * gary_poster thinks that the webservice will get attention separately
[15:33] <bigjools> I think it's valuable work - we don't have anyone looking at our whole api, other than the people who use it
[15:33] <danilos> of course, we can choose when the next version bump will be
[15:33] <gary_poster> i.e., this is the worng forum
[15:33] <danilos> gary_poster, +1
[15:33] <jcsackett> gary_poster + 1
[15:33] <gary_poster> looking at the whole api: that was to have been what leonardr did soon :-)
[15:33] <bac> gary_poster: yep
[15:33] <bigjools> anyway, votes for api_ ?
[15:33] <abentley> bigjools, +1
[15:34] <danilos> bigjools, +1
[15:34] <gary_poster> sure, _1
[15:34] <bac> +1
[15:34] <gary_poster> heh
[15:34] <deryck> +1
[15:34] <gary_poster> +
[15:34] <jcsackett> +1
[15:34] <danilos> :)
[15:34] <jelmer> +1
[15:34] <deryck> is underbar 1 even less than -1? ;)
[15:34] <bigjools> it's a wunderbar
[15:34] <benji> +1
[15:34] <gary_poster> heh, yeah, maybe so :-)
[15:34] <leonardr> +0
[15:34] <bac> bigjools: looks like you have a winner
[15:34] <bigjools> motion carried
[15:34] <bac> bigjools: will you update the style guide?
[15:35] <bigjools> if I can remember where it is
[15:35] <bigjools> :)
[15:35] <jelmer> Alternatively, I'd be happy to update it
[15:35] <danilos> bigjools, I am guessing dev.launchpad.net/StyleGuide :)
[15:35] <danilos> nope, but it does give useful hints :)
[15:35] <bigjools> what!  it's in an obvious place?  I'd never have thought to look there.
[15:35] <bac> any other topics?
[15:37] <bac> i'll look at the list of people who will be around next wednesday and cancel this meeting if it looks too low.
[15:37] <bac> thanks for coming everyone
[15:37] <flacoste> thanks bac
[15:37] <bac> #endmeeting
[15:37] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:37.
[15:37] <danilos> cheers bac
[15:37] <mars> thanks bac
[15:37] <bigjools> cheers
[15:37] <gary_poster> thank you
[15:37] <gmb> Ta
[15:37] <abentley> thanks, bac.
[15:38] <jcsackett> thanks, bac.
[15:39] <benji> leonardr: your "and now it's even later" comment made me think of TMBG's "Older" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ltJ8kK4G90&feature=related)