[07:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- mitya57, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4906 Updates pocket
[08:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- doko, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4597 Updates pocket
[13:41] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- rikmills, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4924 Preparing packages
[13:42] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- rikmills, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4924 No packages are being considered! If you are preparing sources manually, please upload them to the PPA now


[09:45] <kaushal> hi
[09:45] <kaushal> which brand of laptop is recommended for Ubuntu ?
[10:33] <anhu> use what u like, there has no special recommendations.. other works perfectly, other may need some fix.. general all work just fine


[12:55] <juliank> oops I forgot to patch pilot today
[12:55] <juliank> and bryceh you haven't been on patch pilot duty since tuesday :D
[14:14] <luna-> 23.10 time :)
[15:15] <bryceh> oops sorry
[15:15] <bryceh> @pilot out
[18:21] <UnivrslSuprBox> Sorry to interrupt celebrations, but I'm a bit perplexed where to turn. Ubuntu 23.04 and 23.10, and Debian bookworm all released with GNU Coreutils 9.1 which is a little buggy wrt `--preserve`, `--parents`, and some other things in `cp`, `install`, and the like. lp:2017414, debian:1035531, and potentially others track it...
[18:21] -ubottu:#ubuntu-devel- Launchpad bug 2017414 in coreutils (Ubuntu) "cp --parents fails without reason" [Undecided, Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2017414
[18:21] -ubottu:#ubuntu-devel- Debian bug 1035531 in coreutils "coreutils: fix regressions in copy dir-relative operations" [Important, Open] https://bugs.debian.org/1035531
[18:22] <UnivrslSuprBox> Coreutils 9.4 fixes all these problems, but it seems like the maintainer for coreutils in Debian hasn't uploaded in a while.
[18:23] <UnivrslSuprBox> Where would I turn to get the gears turning on a new release of coreutils of all things? Can that even be NMU'd? Seems like it's something that I or someone else would need to start work on _now_ in order to have it ready for 24.04
[21:05] <tsimonq2> UnivrslSuprBox: Hey stranger :) looks like _doko merged it last, hopefully he can give you some insight.
[21:07] <UnivrslSuprBox> tsimonq2: howdy! Guess who has a build system full of all of the things that are broken in 9.1...
[21:10] <tsimonq2> UnivrslSuprBox: Nice, heh. With coordination from Matthias and related release teams, I'm happy to sponsor related uploads to Debian or Ubuntu :)
[22:04] <Unit193> Can n be open yet?  I have a package that only falis Ubuntu autopkgtests so I have to do a few test uploads to see if it can be easily fixed. :P
[23:00] <jbicha> Unit193: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration#Testing_against_a_PPA
[23:01] <tsimonq2> ...before I dig too far, has anyone noticed a change in quilt behavior for the worst recently?
[23:01] <tsimonq2> It loses track of which patch it's on.
[23:03] <jbicha> tsimonq2: I use gbp-pq; takes a little time to learn how to use it but it's reliable https://manpages.debian.org/gbp-pq
[23:06] <tsimonq2> jbicha: TIL, thank you :)


[12:32] <alourie> יקךךם
[12:32] <alourie> oops
[12:32] <alourie> hello
[12:32] <alourie> I have a question regarding the ISO tracker logins
[12:33] <alourie> are they synced in some way with, say, LP?
[12:35] <jpds> alourie: Should be all SSO.
[12:35] <alourie> jpds: oh
[12:36] <alourie> so, is there a way to figure if someone with an LP account is also registered on ISO tracker?
[12:53] <phh45> A bug has come back to my Compal JFL92 in 10.04 (maybe not in the release?), 11.04 and 11.10. If there is not a  constant/continuous input (move mouse, touchpad or press keys), the system jams (in 11.10 screen is jammed: seconds in the clock, gnome-system-monitor) and the music I am listening sounds like coming from a broken CD (10.04 skipping/jumping a bit back) or a jammed phonograph/vinyl record (11.10). Is it a regression of kernel bug? In 9.04
[13:00] <phh45> In syslog I'm instructed to announce ALSA-developers: snd_pcm_delay returned exceptional value. A couple of minutes ago VLC player ate all my ram and had to be killed.
[13:58] <sbeattie> pedro_: FYI, empathy has a large number private crash reports
[14:07] <pedro_> sbeattie, will check those in a bit, thanks for the ping :-)
[15:02] <bdmurray> pedro_: bug 882009
[15:02] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 882009 in banshee (Ubuntu) ""ubuntu-bug banshee" crashes (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882009
[15:04] <roadmr> haha so someone needs to run "ubuntu-bug ubuntu-bug"
[15:04] <pedro_> bdmurray, thanks , i'll have a look
[15:04] <pedro_> roadmr, haha yeah
[15:04] <yofel> roadmr: which fails due to another bug :P
[15:05] <pedro_> roadmr, are you going to UDS ?
[15:05] <roadmr> yofel: awesome \o/
[15:05] <roadmr> pedro_: yep
[15:05] <pedro_> roadmr, cool :-) see you there then
[15:05] <roadmr> pedro_: awesome, looking forward to it
[15:20] <kamusin> package name is incorrect, should be banshee instead banshee-1
[15:40] <bdmurray> kamusin: will that find the gconf keys though?
[15:41] <bdmurray> pedro_: could you also look at / close bug 42471
[15:41] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 42471 in casper (Baltix) (and 1 other project) "[Dapper LiveCD Beta2] Deleted items are not visible in Trash (dups: 1)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/42471
[15:41] <kamusin> nope bdmurray :(
[15:45] <kamusin> should that line be similar to run  a  gconftool-2 -R /apps/banshee , right?


[20:17] <Volkard> Hello
[20:17] <RoyK> aften
[20:18] <Volkard> how far east did the Vikings go?
[20:18] <RoyK> greenland and the current US
[20:18] <RoyK> oh
[20:18] <RoyK> east
[20:18] <RoyK> down to turkey
[20:18] <Volkard> I know they reached the Volga
[20:18] <Volkard> but anything further?
[20:19] <RoyK> not sure
[20:19] <Volkard> do you think of the Rus as Vikings per se?
[20:19] <RoyK> guess they met
[20:19] <RoyK> but different folks
[20:20] <RoyK> the vikings were a lot simpler in terms of culture than most of the other parts of europe - probably because it was fewer people up here
[20:20] <RoyK> well, at least that's we now
[20:21] <RoyK> erm
[20:21] <RoyK> know
[20:21] <Volkard> what about south?
[20:21] <RoyK> no youtube videos from the viking times
[20:21] <Volkard> i know they got to jerusalem
[20:21] <RoyK> africa
[20:21] <Volkard> which was popular destination back then
[20:21] <RoyK> afrika
[20:21] <RoyK> they went to they nothern afrikan states
[20:22] <Volkard> which ones?
[20:22] <RoyK> most of them, I guess
[20:23] <Volkard> do you call the Normas vikings?
[20:23] <Volkard> Normans*
[20:24] <Volkard> I heard this argument a lot of time
[20:24] <Volkard> saying taht because Rollo landed in normandy and forced the first creation of semi autonomous territory in normandy, therefore later normans should be thought as Vikings.
[20:32] <RoyK> Volkard: Gangerolv was his name
[20:33] <RoyK> Volkard: Göngu-Hrólfr
[20:34] <Volkard> yeah
[20:34] <RoyK> Volkard: he was forced to leave Norway after slaughtering a few people
[20:35] <RoyK> Volkard: according to what I've heard, he was given land in Normandie as a barrier between Belgium and France
[20:35] <RoyK> Volkard: since both were friendly towards the norseman, but fought against oneanother
[20:35] <RoyK> Volkard: this I've heard from a friend that studied in france
[20:35] <Volkard> I see.
[20:36] <Volkard> I still wonder if Normans can really be considered "Vikings"?
[20:36] <RoyK> Volkard: the norse books say he grabbed land there, but the french version is different
[20:36] <Volkard> I have always leant to 'no'
[20:36] <RoyK> Volkard: the word "viking" means "fra viken" that is "from the fjord of oslo"
[20:38] <Volkard> http://www.ling.upenn.edu/%7Ekurisuto/germanic/oi_cleasbyvigfusson_about.html
[20:38] <Volkard> "víkingr" is described as such in Cleasby and Vigfusson's An Icelandic-English Dictionary:
[20:38] <Volkard> víkingr, m. a freebooter, rover, pirate, but in the Icel. Sagas used specially of the bands of Scandinavian warriors, who during the 9th and 10th centuries harried the British Isles and Normandy...The word 'víkingr' is thought to be derived from vík (a bay), from their haunting the bays, creeks, and fjords... "
[20:39] <RoyK> yes
[20:39] <RoyK> 'viken'
[20:39] <RoyK> literally 'the bay'
[20:39] <RoyK> is the old name of the oslo fjord
[20:40] <Volkard> so only 9th to 10th centuries
[20:41] <Volkard> basically only when they were bands of pirates
[20:41] <Volkard> before the kingdoms
[20:41] <RoyK> currently reading this: Eddukvæði
[20:41] <RoyK> Volkard: there were kingdoms long before that
[20:42] <Volkard> before 1085?
[20:42] <RoyK> in norse times, perhaps around 700-800
[20:43] <RoyK> it started when they moved to farmers
[20:43] <RoyK> hunters didn't stick together
[20:43] <Volkard> alright
[20:44] <Volkard> The Vigfusson definition says its basically untill the 10th century though
[20:44] <Volkard> so the expansions afterwards cannot be considered "vikings"
[20:44] <RoyK> according to norwegian history, the formal end of the viking are was 1030
[20:45] <RoyK> which of course is a fact that should be taken with a few pints of salt
[20:45] <RoyK> as with all sorts of history ;)
[20:45] <Volkard> for the british, the end of the viking age is Stamford Bridge
[20:45] <Volkard> for the Danes its Canute the Holy's death
[20:46] <RoyK> when was that?
[20:46] <Volkard> Canute?
[20:46] <Volkard> 1085
[20:46] <RoyK> ok
[20:46] <Volkard> stamford bridge?
[20:46] <Volkard> 1066
[20:47] <RoyK> damn - how good isn't it to listen to the Brown Album (Primus) today
[20:48] <Volkard> primus!
[20:48] <RoyK> :)
[20:48] <Volkard> you know they reached as far as America
[20:48] <Volkard> and I bet you heard off the sagas.
[20:48] <Volkard> of*
[20:49] <RoyK> what sagas?
[20:49] <Volkard> but did you know that native americans had oral traditions and tales about the vikings?
[20:49] <RoyK> doesn't surprise me
[20:49] <RoyK> recently, there was found rests of cannabis in an old viking ship that had been to the americas
[20:50] <Volkard> interesting
[20:50] <RoyK> a small lump of 1kg or so
[20:50] <RoyK> guess they liked it ;)
[20:50] <Volkard> thats not small
[20:50] <RoyK> well, if you're travelling far, why not bring some more?
[20:51] <Volkard> sure
[20:51] <RoyK> primus makes me rest today :P
[20:52] <RoyK> norwegian politics is at its depth
[20:52] <RoyK> so it's nice to listen to good music
[20:53] <Volkard> so when did nobility start in norway?
[20:53] <Volkard> kingdoms and so on
[20:53] <RoyK> it was that way all the way afaik
[20:53] <Volkard> dont think so
[20:54] <Volkard> in sweden it only started in 1280
[20:54] <RoyK> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olav_den_hellige
[20:54] <RoyK> after that, there was peace, or so they say, but there was a lot of fighting going on for long
[20:55] <RoyK> and then there was the black death where the danes took over
[20:56] <Volkard> ok
[20:56] <Volkard> I found a source saying viking ended in Norway in 870
[20:56] <Volkard> after the reign of King Halfdan
[20:56] <RoyK> what source?
[20:56] <RoyK> seems very strange
[20:56] <Volkard> http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/timeline.shtml
[20:57] <RoyK> heh
[20:57] <RoyK> a lot happened after that
[20:58] <Volkard> right
[20:58] <Volkard> but this is before the formation of the Sacndinavian kingdoms
[20:58] <Volkard> the "pagan" times
[20:58] <RoyK> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimskringla
[20:58] <RoyK> read that
[20:59] <Volkard> I read it
[20:59] <RoyK> you can probably find it translated
[20:59] <Volkard> and Egil's Saga
[20:59] <Volkard> by Snorri
[20:59] <RoyK> that's rather vicious ;)
[21:00] <RoyK> egil's, I mean
[21:00] <Volkard> I think its just theoretical
[21:00] <Volkard> Egil's saga
[21:00] <RoyK> well, might be
[21:00] <RoyK> but it doesn't seem that way
[21:01] <RoyK> people didn't write theoretical stories in those days
[21:01] <RoyK> or perhaps they did...
[21:01] <Volkard> theres some controversy I remember
[21:01] <RoyK> like the bible...
[21:01] <Volkard> some are saying its not Snorri's work
[21:01] <Volkard> yeah
[21:01] <RoyK> there are some controversy over the bible, last I heard
[21:01] <Volkard> theres no source to confirm it basically
[21:01] <Volkard> haha yea
[21:02] <RoyK> Volkard, this is an interesting conversation ;)
[21:03] <Volkard> yeah
[21:04] <Volkard> most of the stuff we know comes from crhsitian times
[21:04] <Volkard> like 13th century
[21:04] <Volkard> very few sources that are pre-christian
[21:04] <Volkard> and most of it is pictorial depictions and picture stones
[21:05] <Volkard> like the Gosforth stone
[21:05] <RoyK> have you read Hávamál?
[21:05] <Volkard> Hymiskviða ?
[21:05] <RoyK> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1vam%C3%A1l
[21:06] <Volkard> yeah
[21:07] <Volkard> http://www.vikinganswerlady.com
[21:07] <Volkard> this website is really great
[21:07] <RoyK> Volkard: are you English?
[21:08] <Volkard> no
[21:08] <Volkard> Emirtai
[21:08] <RoyK> ok :(
[21:08] <Volkard> Emirati
[21:08] <RoyK> ok :)
[21:08] <RoyK> sorry - wrong parantese there
[21:08] <Volkard> thats fine :)
[21:09] <RoyK> http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html
[21:09] <Volkard> Vikings and scandinavian history is just a hobby of mine
[21:09] <RoyK> hehe
[21:09] <Volkard> my specialities are Asian History
[21:09] <RoyK> cool :)
[21:09] <RoyK> are you a historian?
[21:10] <Volkard> yes
[21:10] <RoyK> ok
[21:10] <Volkard> my expertise particularly is the big 3
[21:10] <Volkard> China, Japan, Korea
[21:10] <RoyK> ok
[21:11] <RoyK> it'd be rather interesting sharing a day with you, learning
[21:11] <RoyK> but I'd like to divert a bit
[21:11] <Volkard> well, if you're ever in dubai then you are most welcome :)
[21:11] <RoyK> in the emirates, they hate gays, right?
[21:11] <Volkard> yeah
[21:12] <RoyK> do you?
[21:12] <Volkard> I dont.
[21:13] <RoyK> that's good
[21:13] <Volkard> I helped some foreigners who ran into troubles with the police to get away from criminal prosecution
[21:14] <RoyK> I'm not particularly gay myself, just a little, but I must say I have a strong hathred for regimes like yours
[21:29] <Malinux> isn't Volkard the dude who shows up here now and then? :)
[21:30] <Malinux> people who really hate gay-people, often do so because they depress (<<-- is that the right word?) their own gay-feelings
[21:32] <Volkard> A lot to do with traditions Malinux
[21:32] <Malinux> traditions of depressing their gay-feelings?
[21:32] <Volkard> Traditions against gays
[21:32] <Volkard> religious laws
[21:33] <Malinux> religous noncense
[21:33] <Malinux> laws with no logical reason
[21:33] <Malinux> like norway when homosexuality was phorbited by law until 1972
[21:53] <RoyK> Volkard: really, if you don't like our way of allowing people to fuck whoeever they want to fuck, you're not welcome here
[21:54] <Volkard> I dont have a problem with it.
[21:55] <Volkard> I already told you that I helped lots of people who came into danger because of it.,
[21:55] <RoyK> Volkard: if your daughter or son came out to you and told you she or he was gay, would that be ok?
[21:57] <RoyK> (silence)
[22:01] <Volkard> I dont havfe authority to judge them
[22:02] <Volkard> they need to be strong.
[22:02] <RoyK> whom?
[22:03] <Volkard> as long as he does it in the privacy of his house I will be fine with it
[22:03] <Volkard> you need to understand that this is very foreign to me
[22:04] <RoyK> Volkard: homosexuality appears everywere - for animals of all kind - also higher reformed animal like humans
[22:04] <Volkard> I was not tested like this, so I cant demand othe rpeople to act like heroes.
[22:05] <RoyK> don't be heros
[22:05] <Malinux> so it's okey he is different, as long as you don't have to see it?
[22:05] <RoyK> just be people
[22:05] <RoyK> just accept people
[22:05] <Volkard> Malinux, here its dangerous if its done publicly.
[22:06] <Malinux> how do you do homosexality in public?
[22:06] <Malinux> do you hetereosexuality in public  anyway?
[22:06] <RoyK> Volkard: but why don't you accept it?
[22:06] <Volkard> you have to understand that homosexuality is one of the more extreme violation, and there is no religious permission.
[22:07] <RoyK> Volkard: would you like to try it? it's quite nice? :D
[22:07] <Malinux> the question is actually as simple as: Do you, or do you not accept if your son or daughter is gay?
[22:07] <Volkard> essentially its like any other religious violation.
[22:07] <Malinux> there is two possible answers
[22:07] <Malinux> yes, or no
[22:07] <Volkard> what you mean by accept?
[22:07] <Volkard> its not my place to accept it.
[22:07] <RoyK> no, and you get out rather quickly. yes, if you want to talk about it
[22:08] <Volkard> he will still be my son of course if thats what you mean
[22:08] <Malinux> this is the defination of acceptence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance
[22:09] <Malinux> Volkard: no, that's not what I meant. The question was very simple, but you avoid answering it
[22:09] <Malinux> by a yes or a no
[22:09] <Malinux> By the "answers" so far, I assume you want to answer no?
[22:09] <Volkard> yes I accept it of course.
[22:10] <Volkard> I dont think you understood what I said.
[22:10] <RoyK> dr0: ping
[22:11] <Malinux> maybe I didn't
[22:11] <Volkard> I was not tested personally like that, I did not have those feelings and the conflict with religious demands. so I cannot pass judgement
[22:11] <Malinux> so you are controlled by relgion?
[22:11] <Malinux> religion
[22:11] <Volkard> we have free choice.
[22:11] <Malinux> really?
[22:11] <Malinux> nobody has free choices :)
[22:12] <Volkard> you can choose to observe the commandments or not to. and our scriptures emphasize the need to overcome our urges.
[22:12] <Malinux> If people had free choices, people could choose not to be gay
[22:12] <Malinux> that would be easier in a contry like yours
[22:12] <Volkard> I mean free choice about their decisions, to observe or not to observe.
[22:13] <RoyK> Volkard: I like men - would you want to meet?
[22:13] <Volkard> some people take this challenge and try to overcome their urges.
[22:14] <Volkard> RoyK, I dont have prejudices.
[22:14] <RoyK> that's good
[22:14] <RoyK> lots of people in this channel are gay or otherwise
[22:15] <Malinux> Volkard: challenge to overcome urges like homosexual feelings?
[22:15] <Volkard> our religion says that if your urges overcome you, then you should go to a foreign place where nobody knows you and do whatever your heart desire
[22:15] <Malinux> That's impossible in the long term
[22:16] <Volkard> Malinux, i dont know. this is very foreign to me and I cannot offer insights.
[22:16] <Volkard> we all have issues with urges.
[22:16] <RoyK> Volkard: no, there is no such thing as anti-homosexuality in islam - I've read the Koran
[22:16] <Malinux> yes, but if the urges is not dangerous or harm anyone, why do you need to do anything with them?
[22:16] <Volkard> everyday I have to perform certain rituals. its not easy
[22:16] <Malinux> you don't need to?
[22:16] <Volkard> I have an urge to stay in bed
[22:17] <Volkard> but I overcome this urge every morning like a lion
[22:17] <Malinux> that's not the same
[22:17] <RoyK> Volkard: there are interpretations of the bible and the koran that say that gay stuff is bad, but only interpretations
[22:17] <RoyK> Volkard: there's no single word about it in either book
[22:18] <Volkard> Its not true.
[22:18] <RoyK> quote that for me, please
[22:18] <Volkard> The prohibition against homosexuality is absolute and it doesnt leave any room for exceptions
[22:18] <Malinux> there is a lot of other things the bible (and the koran?) says you shouldn't do that most religous don't concern about
[22:18] <RoyK> quote that for me, please
[22:18] <RoyK> Volkard: find the phrase
[22:19] <RoyK> Volkard: in your Q'uran
[22:19] <Volkard> why is this turning to a religious argument?
[22:19] <Volkard> are you muslim scholar?
[22:19] <RoyK> Volkard: you were the one starting it
[22:19] <RoyK> Volkard: I've read the damn book
[22:20] <Malinux> I think you turned this into religion in the first place Volkard
[22:20] <Malinux> why can't we just get a quote from the Koran then?
[22:20] <RoyK> Volkard: there are some phrases back in the early parts stating you should not seed what can't be seeded or so
[22:21] <RoyK> Volkard: but that's about it
[22:21] <Volkard> there is reference to these acts as indecent and blasphemous all throughout the thing
[22:21] <RoyK> Volkard: there's nothing about not respecting love
[22:21] <RoyK> Volkard: {{citation-needed}}
[22:22] <RoyK> Volkard: and my I ask, how can it be blasphemous to love someone?
[22:23] <Malinux> because religion is not logical I guess
[22:23] <RoyK> then. just. fuck. religiin.
[22:23] <Volkard> http://quran.com/7/80-84
[22:24] <RoyK> Volkard: heh - that doesn't say nawt about gays
[22:25] <RoyK> guess that's the pass they have in the bible about sodoma
[22:25] <Volkard> yes
[22:25] <Volkard> abog sodom
[22:25] <Volkard> about
[22:25] <Volkard> the people of Lot
[22:26] <RoyK> which is bullshit
[22:26] <Volkard> the word homosexuality in arabic comes from this
[22:26] <RoyK> a 6000yo text
[22:26] <Volkard> also for homosexuals
[22:26] <RoyK> want to take that as your rule?
[22:26] <RoyK> times have changed, man
[22:26] <RoyK> we're not in those days anymore
[22:27] <Volkard> this is not your business
[22:27] <RoyK> it is
[22:27] <Volkard> you dont believe in freedom of religion?
[22:27] <RoyK> sure
[22:27] <RoyK> but freedom of religion isn't freedom of keeping people down
[22:27] <RoyK> so no
[22:28] <Volkard> how do I keep you down exactly?
[22:28] <RoyK> like you just tried to
[22:28] <Volkard> Im not tryign to keep you down.
[22:28] <RoyK> a phrase from the q'uran which says nothing
[22:28] <RoyK> that phrase is ZIL
[22:28] <RoyK> it's just buggus
[22:29] <Volkard> this is one source for the prohibition against homosexuality in islamic law
[22:29]  * RoyK rubs Volkard's chest slowly
[22:29] <Volkard> buggus?
[22:30] <RoyK> Volkard: you have to understnad, you have to learn the Q'ran first
[22:30] <Dry_Lips> lads, there's ##religion for religous talk... Remember that #ubuntu-no is a logged channel
[22:30] <Volkard> RoyK, Are you serious?
[22:30] <RoyK> Volkard: then start to try to understand what it's about
[22:30] <Volkard> RoyK, You do realize that I studied it in more than a theoretical way?
[22:31] <RoyK> Volkard: when you're done, you probably won't even chat
[22:31] <RoyK> Dry_Lips: jada, men er litt gøy å snakke her også
[22:31] <Volkard> You're trying to convince me that my religion doesnt say what it says
[22:31] <Volkard> its kind ofsilly.
[22:32] <Volkard> in fact, this is one of three reasons (only three) for which person can be executed.
[22:32] <RoyK> Volkard: I'm not religious, but I've read a lot. You're trying to tell me that homosexuality is forbidden by the god(s), which I find rather amusing
[22:34] <Volkard> RoyK, there are situations when you're required to give your own life, so its not unreasonable to be expected to resist urges, even if this urge is characteristic.
[22:34] <RoyK> Volkard: I've been kind to you, and I understand you're not very fond of the regime, but I don't like the way you talk about Islam's way against the gays
[22:35] <Volkard> RoyK, sometimes accepting Islam requires condemning yourself to misery and suffering in your life, but you are considered a hero.
[22:35] <RoyK> Islam has as little against gays as Christianity has - it's just 6000yo stories
[22:36] <RoyK> in a time where there were too many men, because of wars
[22:36] <RoyK> it's that simple
[22:36] <RoyK> they needed men to fertilise the women
[22:36] <RoyK> so homosexiality was forbidden
[22:36] <Volkard> you are trying to pass reformist islamic movment as the benchmark for islam
[22:36] <Volkard> this is just not the case.
[22:37] <RoyK> I like people to be open
[22:37] <RoyK> I don't put pressure on you
[22:37] <Volkard> thats fine, but reality doesnt come in necessarily likeable flavours
[22:38] <RoyK> neither does religious thoughts
[22:38] <Volkard> I'm just being honest with you about rulings and beliefs on this issue.
[22:39] <Volkard> the really is no running away from it, it doesnt allow homosexuality
[22:39] <RoyK> I just wonder how people can beleive that 6k yo scipts can make their days better
[22:40] <RoyK> Volkard: homosexuality has been normal at all times
[22:40] <RoyK> Volkard: check the history books
[22:40] <Volkard> RoyK, these are things that people value, and any decision about values is irrational
[22:41] <Malinux> the history books is written by stupid people who says the earth is older than 6000 years. How stupid isn't that?
[22:41] <Volkard> there is no rational moral theory, and there is no rational beauty theory
[22:41] <Volkard> and there is no rational political program
[22:41] <Volkard> and there is no rational belief.
[22:41] <RoyK> Volkard: are your history books less than 6000 years old?
[22:41] <Volkard> decisions about values dont express knowlege but rather they represent the commitments a person takes upon themselves.
[22:42] <RoyK> Volkard: are your history books less than 6000 years old?
[22:42] <Volkard> only science is rational, and thats why its indifferent to values and morality and doesnt forces people to do anything
[22:42] <RoyK> Volkard: are your history books less than 6000 years old?
[22:42] <Volkard> yes
[22:42] <Volkard> its not a history book.
[22:42] <RoyK> something like 5000?
[22:42] <Volkard> if you want to learn history goto textbooks
[22:43] <RoyK> or something like 700?
[22:43] <Malinux> it can't be more than 6000years anyway, as nothing existed before that
[22:43] <RoyK> tror noen bør kaste ut den fyren her
[22:43] <Malinux> tja
[22:44] <RoyK> Volkard: this is quite off-topic at this channel
[22:45] <RoyK> Volkard: we value a good chat, unless it's very, very off-topic and very little intellectual
[22:45] <Volkard> ok.
[22:48] <Volkard> historically the entire body of work spans over a great period of time.
[22:49] <Volkard> Malinux, Like I said; its not a historical book, if you want to learn about the world you shouldnt turn to scripture.
[22:50] <Volkard> Islam doesnt give you knowledge about nature or about men, it just sets worshipping demands.
[22:50] <Volkard> do you have mandatory military service in norway?
[22:51] <Volkard> its like when a soldier gets drafting papers.
[22:51] <Volkard> the drafting document doesnt give him any info about the military or about the war, it just calls him on duty of service.
[22:57] <Volkard> in fact we have very good records and evidence of things happening more than 6000 years ago, and we know of a lot of thousands of years of human existance in pre-historical times and of millions of years of existence on earth before men and even longer periods.
[22:58] <Volkard> but the whole concept of "the age of the world" is really tough because of the conceptual difficulties of ideas like "time" and "beginning of the universe".
[23:08] <RoyK> Volkard: thing is, the q'uran and the bible are both old, they are historical books, they are not about the current culture. to interpret those within the current culture, you either have to be very smart or very dumb, mostly the second happens
[23:09] <RoyK> Volkard: time is changing people, and struggling to people and culture as what it were 6000 or even 800 years ago is devastating
[23:12] <Volkard> this is a very serious point.
[23:12] <Volkard> this is not a religious question but meta-religious
[23:13] <Volkard> it could be indeed the beginning of the end.
[23:14] <Volkard> but I could imagine myself a situation when there is a crisis, an unresolvable conflic between the formal norm of religious law and between life necessities.
[23:14] <Volkard> this is not because religion is short-handed, but its because of funcitonal incompetency with historical reasons.
[23:15] <RoyK> Volkard: are you truely religious?
[23:16] <Volkard> in some cases it could be ok to consciously violate a theoretical and pedagogical law instead of saving ourselves hypocritically.
[23:16] <Volkard> yes RoyK.
[23:17] <RoyK> Volkard: so, do you beleive the world was created 6000 years ago?
[23:17] <Volkard> I hmm
[23:17] <Volkard> I think I already explained that.
[23:17] <RoyK> no
[23:18] <Volkard> i do not
[23:18] <Volkard> the scriptures are not physics or history textbooks
[23:19] <Volkard> history, chemistry or physics textbook give you information about the world
[23:19] <RoyK> and it shows us what?
[23:20] <Volkard> physics, history, chemistry ... these are mundane things, like eating and sleeping. its not holy.
[23:20] <RoyK> ir's the same thing
[23:20] <Volkard> RoyK, it tells you how to worship
[23:20] <RoyK> it's the same thing
[23:21] <Volkard> its all about your status with god and your duties to worship him
[23:21] <RoyK> I worship nature
[23:21] <Volkard> not about knowledge about the world, nature or history
[23:21] <Volkard> RoyK, that is fine.
[23:21] <Volkard> to each their own.
[23:22] <Volkard> knowing when and how the world came to be -- that is only important from scientific research perspective, its completely irrelevant to religion and faith.
[23:22] <Volkard> your status with god and your duties towards him arent dependent by it
[23:23] <Volkard> whether the world is old or new, whether it was created or not and when this happend and how, and the historicity of all of it.. all of these things are human concerns, interest of knowledge and understanding, stuff science deals with, religion and faith, the quran and the duties, have other concerns - holy concerns.
[23:24] <Volkard> its really ridiculous to think that scripture was handed to teach you some physics or history lesson
[23:24] <Volkard> and god came down to earth to act as a science professor
[23:26] <Volkard> (the scriptures are much better than science, histoiry, astronomy, chemistry or physics lectures)
[23:55] <Volkard> I hope that clears things up


[01:25] <vox754> I was wondering if this "laptop team" would provide additional support to the "ndiswrapper" project. The current developer has stated that he may do some serious job if he could work on 64 bit processor and multiple core machine.
[01:35] <vox754> Donations are always welcomed, but in this case the new hardware would be great help to develop better code, specially attending issues with SMP. I'm asking here because I think it is in the best interest of Ubuntu developers to support the ndiswrapper project which provides wireless access to countless users. With better networking support Ubuntu would benefit greatly.
[01:50] <vox754> The developer of ndiswrapper is a serious programmer, so you can guarantee he'll do his best with the new hardware. If the people in here are just users and don't have that much experience with what I'm talking, then you could perhaps redirect me to the right people. I think Canonical could back up the ndiswrapper project without problems.
[01:57] <vox754> caravena, hey are you part of the "laptop team"?
[01:57] <caravena> vox754: I create my report.
[01:57] <caravena> My report of my notebook.
[01:58] <vox754> do you know what it takes to get a laptop from Canonical?
[01:58] <vox754> caravena, is this channel any active?
[01:59] <caravena> vox754: jajaa
[01:59] <caravena> Yes
[01:59] <caravena> Active is channel.
[01:59] <caravena> 23 users...
[02:00] <vox754> caravena, seriouslly
[02:02] <vox754> caravena, I want to contact anyone that can donate a laptop or machine with amd64 and symmetric multi processor to the ndiswrapper project. I think Canonical can donate something like that. Are you familiar with ndiswrapper?
[02:03] <caravena> Yes
[02:03] <caravena> Ndisdwwapper very important
[02:03] <caravena> Chipset broadcom and others.
[02:04] <caravena> moment pliss searching contact
[02:07] <vox754> I've been talking to the developer and he says that a new hardware may allow him to improve things, specially for those with amd64 and smp. I think Ubuntu should definitely support an effort like this since this distribution is clearly aimed at desktop users, who want to see their hardware working flawlessly, without having to do a lot of things.
[02:08] <mjg59> Best that they avoid ndiswrapper, then
[02:09] <vox754> mjg59, ndiswrapper is actually very easy to set up... if the drivers are the correct ones. What experience do you have?
[02:10] <mjg59> That ndiswrapper bugs are effectively impossible for us to work on, and can expose themselves in a wide variety of different and painful ways that end up wasting significant portions of time
[02:12] <vox754> mjg59, are you experienced in programming? Or how do you know they are bugs?
[02:13] <mjg59> vox754: I'm a kernel developer
[02:14] <vox754> oh, that's good, then I guess you can do some serious work with the kernel and ndiswrapper
[02:14] <mjg59> I don't touch non-free code
[02:14] <vox754> which is...
[02:14] <mjg59> Pretty much anything that ndiswrapper loads
[02:16] <vox754> but ndiswrapper itself is free. Do you need to manipulate the proprietary drivers when working with ndiswrapper?
[02:16] <mjg59> Once proprietary drivers are running in kernel-space, they can interfere with any other aspect of the kernel.
[02:19] <vox754> interesting... Still, do you agree that ndiswrapper is an essential part for a lot of Ubuntu users?
[02:19] <mjg59> No, I'd prefer that we didn't ship it at all
[02:20] <vox754> interesting opinion
[02:20] <mjg59> It means that whenever someone hits a bug in a native (and supportable) Linux driver, they just move to ndiswrapper instead and the bug never gets fixed
[02:21] <vox754> oh... but what about those chipsets that lack native support?
[02:21] <mjg59> Sucks.
[02:22] <mjg59> There's only one, anyway
[02:22] <mjg59> Oh, I guess two if anyone's still stuck with Inprocomm stuff
[02:22] <vox754> mmm...  So I guess some of us still have to support it.
[02:32] <vox754> then what is the future of wireless devices, do you see any sudden increase in native support? what about each card that comes out? do they use standards now?
[05:32] <mjg59> Which brings the number of bugs I care about down to a managable number. Hurrah!
[05:32] <tritium> Gah, even the new 2.6.20-13 upload doesn't fix Atheros AR5212
[05:33] <tritium> I had high hopes for the new atheros driver
[05:34] <tritium> How are things, mjg59?
[05:34] <mjg59> Non-free drivers? Just say no.
[05:34] <tritium> Well, it's my work laptop (T43p).
[05:35] <tritium> mjg59: this might be a problem for laptop support on feisty


[16:04] <Keybuk> sadmac: Bill is using emit in a very strange way in #435368
[16:47] <sadmac_> Keybuk: what's the issue?
[16:50] <Keybuk> is it just a minimal test case that demonstrates the bug?
[16:50] <Keybuk> ie. why are you using emit?
[16:50] <sadmac_> exactly, just a test case
[16:50] <sadmac_> the point is a job started by an event with arguments doesn't get those arguments again when restarted
[16:53] <Keybuk> true...
[16:53] <Keybuk> but since events don't even *have* arguments anymore in trunk
[16:54] <Keybuk> and even while they still did, they weren't passed to the job anyway ...
[16:54] <Keybuk> it's kinda a null test case :p
[16:54] <Keybuk> it's certainly a bug in 0.3 that the associated event information is lost for services once they're running, so not available after the respawn - that is fixed in trunk
[16:57] <sadmac_> Ah cool
[16:57] <Keybuk> the trunk equivalent would be something like:
[16:58] <Keybuk>   initctl emit foo DEV=bar PATH=baz
[16:58] <Keybuk> and then you'd use $DEV and $PATH in the script
[16:58] <Keybuk> and they survive respawn
[16:58] <Keybuk> until a different event starts the job
[16:58] <Keybuk> or you change them with start
[16:58] <Keybuk> ie.
[16:58] <Keybuk>   initctl start jobname DEV=wibble PATH=wobble
[16:59] <sadmac_> cool
[17:00] <sadmac_> Keybuk: have you had any thoughts on lod and making it work?
[17:00] <Keybuk> lod?
[17:00] <sadmac_> s/lod/logd/
[17:01] <Keybuk> not really
[17:01] <Keybuk> the only thing I've come up with would be making logd have a pty
[17:01] <Keybuk> and telling upstart to divert output from jobs to that pty while running
[17:01] <Keybuk> that doesn't fix logd dying though
[17:02] <Keybuk> so has the same basic problems as the socket
[17:02] <sadmac_> hm
[17:03] <sadmac_> Keybuk: you could have upstart itself hold a pipe to each program, and then just bridge it through sunrpc to logd (since sunrpc has that lovely property of just sitting and buffering when the listener goes away)
[17:03] <Keybuk> interesting
[17:04] <Keybuk> would you need the bridge in that instance?
[17:04] <sadmac_> the one big limitation of sunrpc is it has a custom interface (no file descriptors) so you can't just bolt it right onto stdio
[17:04] <sadmac_> so yes
[17:04] <Keybuk> ah
[17:04] <sadmac_> oh, not sunrpc
[17:05] <sadmac_> sunipc
[17:05] <sadmac_> or sun ipc
[17:05] <Keybuk> lol
[17:05] <Keybuk> the problem with the bootlogd approach, btw (stealing console output via ioctl) is it doesn't work with our usplash
[17:06] <Keybuk> and I suspect it wouldn't work with your X rhgb either
[17:06] <Keybuk> since both *change* the console to be a graphical one, with text diverted elsewhere
[17:07] <sadmac_> you could alter usplash of course. (I may rewrite rhgb once we get off the ground. right now I'm patching some stuff into upstart to deal with it)
[17:08] <Keybuk> it isn't usplash that's the problem
[17:08] <Keybuk> it's svgalib
[17:08] <Keybuk> and I want to fiddle with that about as much as I want to wake up without my kidneys
[17:09] <sadmac_> ah
[17:20] <sadmac_> Keybuk: it looked like in trunk the event files had moved, is this the case?
[17:21] <Keybuk> event files?
[17:21] <sadmac_> /etc/event.d/*
[17:23] <Keybuk> possibly moving to /etc/init/jobs.d
[17:23] <sadmac_> yeah, any particular reason?
[17:24] <Keybuk> to stop people calling them "event files" :)
[17:24] <Keybuk> since they're not
[17:24] <Keybuk> they're job files
[17:24] <Keybuk> jobs and events are different things
[17:24] <Keybuk> but everyone confuses the two because of the directory name
[17:24] <sadmac_> ah.
[17:26] <Keybuk> e.g. people think that if you have /etc/event.d/foo
[17:27] <Keybuk> then initctl emit foo will start it
[17:27] <sadmac_> yeah.
[17:28] <Keybuk> which isn't true at all
[17:32] <sadmac_> Keybuk: one more correction, it wasn't sun ipc. it was sysv.
[17:32]  * sadmac_ should drink coffee while reading things
[17:34] <sadmac_> specifically message queues


[01:27] <spiv> Hmm, babune does seem to show a bit of a speed increase in the test suite, yay (and also from the Branch.open improvement from Dublin)
[01:28] <spiv> Since before Dublin looks like its down to ~21min from ~24min, even though the test count has increased a bit. :)
[01:46] <poolie_> hi spiv
[01:46] <poolie_> that is indeed pretty cool
[02:18] <sidnei> hey poolie, how easy is it to split a branch while keeping history?
[02:19] <sidnei> #501828
[02:20] <sidnei> https://bugs.launchpad.net/graphite/+bug/501828
[02:20] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 501828 in Graphite 1.0 "Create separate branches for the webapp, carbon, and whisper" [Low,Triaged]
[02:25] <lifeless> poolie_: btw, just doing an experiment
[02:26] <lifeless> poolie_: bzr selftest --parallel=fork on my new desktop - looks like it will complete in ~ 3 minutes
[02:27] <lifeless> poolie_: its causing writes to the disk of 1 and 2 MB/s which is a noticable amount (especially considering most things are expected to be deleted and never hit disk)
[02:27] <spiv> lifeless: yeah, I've noticed that, haven't tracked it down yet
[02:27] <spiv> (I haven't really spent much time looking either)
[02:27] <lifeless> hmm, forgot --no-plugins
[02:28] <lifeless> 3m8 seconds, 27172 tests
[02:28] <spiv> There was an issue where some tests would cause writes to ~/.bzr.log, but that's fixed
[02:28] <spiv> lifeless: :)
[02:30] <lifeless> huh
[02:31] <lifeless> 'failed to open trace file:[Errno 12] Permission denied: '/you-should-use-TestCaseInTempDir-if-you-need-a-log-file'
[02:31] <lifeless> test stipple
[02:31] <lifeless> andhow, --no-plugins timing, 2m33s 23794 tests.
[02:31] <spiv> Yeah, that's fallout from said fix.
[02:31] <lifeless> s/and/any/
[02:31] <lifeless> s/12/13/
[02:32] <spiv> lifeless: BZR_PLUGIN_PATH=-site is my usual, includes core plugins
[02:32] <lifeless> want a run with that?
[02:32] <spiv> Why not, it won't take long ;)
[02:32] <lifeless> :)
[02:33] <lifeless> I wonder if gnome-terminal is becoming a limiting factor
[02:35] <lifeless> those lazr.restfulclient errors are really annoying
[02:35] <lifeless> 2m52s 26708 tests
[02:36] <spiv> Ah right, weave_fmt would be the bulk of the extra tests..
[02:38] <spiv> lifeless: so 155 tests/second, not too bad.
[02:38] <lifeless>  /8 to get tests-per-process-per-second
[02:39] <lifeless> 19 or so
[02:39] <lifeless> 2m54s in uxterm, and I was fiddling with things, - I remember we clamp our terminal IO now that I think about it :)
[02:45] <poolie_> lifeless, it's about 4 minutes on my laptop
[02:45] <poolie_> which lazr restfulclient errors?
[02:45] <poolie_> using a tmpfs will help more
[02:45] <lifeless> userwarning: modjule test was already imported from <path.pyx> but <different path> is being added to sys.path
[02:45] <poolie_> i think some of it is that ext4 still flushes directory creation/deletion to disk
[02:46] <poolie_> even if it could be shortcircuited
[02:46] <lifeless> poolie_: interestingly enough, I see near-full use of my 8 cores
[02:46] <lifeless> poolie_: for you be 25% slower, but with 4 cores, raises some interesting questions
[02:46] <lifeless> poolie_: 32 or 64 bit environment ?
[02:47] <poolie_> 64
[02:47] <lifeless> huh
[02:47] <poolie_> i haven't precisely measured it recently
[02:47] <lifeless> fascinating
[02:47] <poolie_> it's single digit minutes
[02:47] <poolie_> by contrast to about an hour on bellany :)
[02:47] <lifeless> naive math would suggest 6 minutes (*2 for 1/2 the cores)
[02:48] <lifeless> do you have an ssd?
[02:48] <poolie_> yes
[02:48] <lifeless> that may be part of it, but we don't fsync so I wouldn't have expected it to block
[02:49] <spiv> But there certainly is a lot of disk IO for something that should do net I/O of approx 0 bytes...
[06:05] <poolie> lifeless, thanks for that mail review
[06:05] <vila> poolie: standup ?
[06:05] <vila> hi all !
[06:06] <poolie> vila, oh, now?
[06:06] <poolie> i'm confused
[06:06] <vila> no ?
[06:06] <poolie> it's only 0600utc, that seems too earl
[06:06] <vila> ghaa, I'm the one confused then >-/
[06:07] <poolie> i have it on my calendar for 2h from now
[06:07] <vila> I won't be able to attend at 0800 UTC
[06:07] <poolie> spiv, what happens next with https://code.launchpad.net/~spiv/launchpad/bmp-inline-diffs/+merge/66634
[06:07] <vila> which probably explains my confusion
[06:09] <spiv> poolie: the pre-req branch gets landed, in theory by the time I wake up tomorrow
[06:10] <poolie> vila, well, i sent mail last week with that time
[06:10] <poolie> can you reply with an alternative?
[06:11] <spiv> poolie: oh, and I guess I need to find the CSS class to use to address your tweak! :)
[06:11] <poolie> spiv, rockin, and then it's unblocked?
[06:11] <poolie> that'd be good
[06:11] <poolie> and also the feature flag name, if you didn't already
[06:12] <spiv> poolie: I think so, I'll certainly poke folks on #launchpad-dev to get it reviewed and hopefully landed
[06:12] <vila> poolie: yes, sorry, dunno why I kept 0800 my time instead of UTC
[06:13] <spiv> poolie: hmm, the feature flag is already “code.ajax_revision_diffs.enabled”
[06:13] <poolie> oh great
[06:13] <poolie> maybe i was out of date
[06:13] <spiv> Oh, maybe not, maybe I'm confusing the syntax?
[06:14] <spiv> Certainly the last time I tested it I put code.ajax_revision_diffs.enabled into +feature-rules and it worked!
[06:14] <poolie> ah
[06:14] <poolie> it's right in the tal but it's wrong in flags.py
[06:14] <poolie> so, you'll get a warning, and it won't be documented properly
[06:15] <spiv> Ah, yes, that'd be it.
[06:15] <fullermd> vila: Still campaigning for the Paris Meridian?   :p
[06:16] <poolie> well, earlier is certainly fine with me, basically you need to fight it out with other people in europe
[06:23] <vila> fullermd: never resign !
[06:24] <vila> poolie: yes :-}
[07:03] <Riddell> good morning Bazaar
[07:04] <jam> morning all
[07:05] <jam> vila: aren't we doing the standup today?
[07:06] <Riddell> no poolie or spiv either?
[07:08] <jam> I see poolie was here 45min ago
[07:08] <jam> not sure what happened
[07:09] <Riddell> well I can go back to sleep for half an hour then :)
[07:12] <oier> hi
[07:13] <oier> I am not sure if I am on the correct channel, but I have problems using bzr builder (the recipes in launchpad to use dailys)
[07:14] <oier> the problem is that I get translations exported automatically to a branch but I don't know how to merge it in the recipe
[07:14] <oier> if I use nest or nest-part it creates a po/po directory, which is useless
[07:14] <spiv> oier: this channel and/or #launchpad are good channels.
[07:14] <oier> and merge doesn't work because the branches are unrelated
[07:15] <spiv> oier: which branches?
[07:15] <jam> hey spiv, have you seen poolie around? I thought we switched the standup to 15min ago
[07:16] <oier> lp:indicator-bug and lp:~oier/indicator-bug/translations
[07:16] <spiv> jam: based on chatter in this channel an hour or so ago I thought it was in 45min time!
[07:16] <oier> in trunk I have a po directory which contains the po file, the translations branch is a po directory with the translated po files
[07:17] <jam> spiv: yeah, looks like it, let me check the mail thread again
[07:17] <spiv> oier: ah, hmm
[07:17] <jam> spiv: yeah, martin's last message was 8:00UTC Tuesdays
[07:18] <jam> I didn't pay enough attention to the actual post, vs what I felt was consensus. stupid timezones being confusing
[07:18] <spiv> oier: I don't think build recipes can do that atm :(
[07:18] <spiv> jam: agreed!
[07:19] <jam> so jr can sleep 40 more minutes
[07:19] <oier> i found a similar bug report where the status is fix released https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr-builder/+bug/515731
[07:19] <spiv> oier: as a workaround you could nest or nest-part the translations into a new directory and then make a branch of lp:indicator-bug that tweaks debian/rules to move the contents of that directory into po/ before doing anything else
[07:20] <spiv> oier: yeah, that bug is what nest-part was added for, but it turns out not to address every case
[07:20] <spiv> oier: like yours :/
[07:21] <spiv> oier: probably best to file a new bug, reference that one
[07:21] <spiv> oier: maybe it'll be marked as a dupe, but that's ok.
[07:21] <oier> but isn't the fix for merging unrelated branches released?
[07:25] <oier> it should be working according to it, or? https://code.launchpad.net/~jelmer/bzr-builder/merge-unrelated/+merge/51425
[07:30] <spiv> oier: hmm, I'm not sure that that fix would deal with the case where both sides add the same directory, like your case :(
[08:01] <jam> Riddell: hey, we're starting to get together now
[08:02] <spiv> poolie: we were just talking about you :)
[08:03] <poolie> hi
[08:03] <spiv> (on mumble)
[08:03] <poolie> hm :)
[08:04] <poolie> pulseaudio crashed!
[08:06] <poolie> :/
[08:08] <jam> poolie: still down?
[08:08] <poolie> yeah
[08:08] <poolie> going to restart my session
[08:08] <jam> k
[08:30] <poolie> gah
[08:31] <jam> spiv: do you want to do PP on your last week ?
[08:32] <spiv> jam: not sure!  I wouldn't be around to follow-up anything that lives beyond that week obviously.  I suspect I'll be hurrying to close off as much of my current work as possible first.
[08:33] <spiv> It might still be a good idea though.
[08:33] <jam> spiv: how about you take next week
[08:33] <jam> seems like a lot of people are otherwise away
[08:33] <spiv> Ok, sure.
[08:33]  * spiv -> gone for the night.
[08:33] <jam> spiv: have a good night
[08:35] <jam> spiv: I had the weeks mixed. vila is here next week, but not the 25th. so for now I have you on the 25th.
[08:35] <jam> We can also swap that out if we need to.
[09:05] <maxb> spiv: On the UDD append-revisions-only issue, do you think it's worth backing out the change and manually unblocking the resulting failed imports, or is fixing it going to be easier than it seems?
[09:43] <poolie> hi maxb
[09:44] <maxb> morning
[10:09] <jam> maxb: he's away for the night. I think he wants to try the 'simple' fix first, and if that doesn't work, then just back out the whole thing
[10:09] <jam> Riddell: you wanted to pair on some reviews
[10:09] <jam> let me know when you want to do so
[10:09] <Riddell> jam: can do if you're doing them now
[10:09] <Riddell> jam: mumble?
[10:10] <jam> Riddell: I wasn't starting them, just thinking to plan it out. But I'm happy to get on mumble with you now
[10:10] <jam> maxb: I wanted to find out about your "check-up-to-date" stuff if you have it
[10:10] <Riddell> jam: well any time is good for me including now
[10:11] <maxb> check-up-to-date?
[10:11] <jam> maxb: check if a udd packaging branch is up-to-date vs its deb packages
[10:11] <jam> jelmer had a branch
[10:11] <jam> which he said you improved by removing launchpadlib
[10:11] <maxb> Oh, that was mainly the discovery of how to successfully call the lp api without launchpadlib
[10:11] <maxb> At the time, it involved mocking up a fake OAuth header
[10:12] <jam> maxb: well, it was 'real' enough to get past launchpad, right?
[10:12] <maxb> Nowadays, the squid has been fixed, and shouldn't even require that
[10:12] <jam> maxb: I'd like to make sure that stuff doesn't get lost
[10:12] <jam> so even if it is only a hint in the right direction, it would be nice to see
[10:14] <maxb> http://paste.ubuntu.com/642517/
[10:14] <maxb> So, if you safe that as a script, and run 'foo ubuntu/+archive/primary bzr' you'll get a familiar looking listing with only one http roundtrip
[10:15] <jam> maxb: so the issue with oauth... LP wants oauth for authenticated users, but for anonymous queries it shouldn't require it?
[10:15] <maxb> and no launchpadlib in sight
[10:15] <maxb> Correct - *shouldn't* - but at the time, anonymous API access was being partially broken by the squid
[10:16] <maxb> That, however, has since been fixed
[10:26] <jam> maxb: yeah, you have the oath stuff commented out in your paste, and the bzr check worked fine for me
[10:27] <jam> and nicely fast, too
[10:28] <maxb> The lazr.restful collections stuff will paginate the response at a default batch size of 75 items, I believe.
[10:28] <jam> [needsfixing] this is a change that is required
[10:28] <jam> [needsinfo] this is a change that you're asking for questions
[10:29] <poolie> lp is a bit confused about whether it's readonly atm
[10:29] <poolie> should be fixed soon
[10:29] <maxb> However, for the kinds of requests we need to make, we should be able to phrase the query parameters such that we are only expecting a collection of zero or one items, and thus avoid needing to reimplement any of lazr.restfulclient's paging navigation behaviour
[10:30] <jam> poolie: by not having a "readonly" mode, right?
[10:30] <jam> (just being down completely)
[10:30] <poolie> no, it seems to have lost people's sessions
[10:38] <arnetheduck> hi, I would like to replay a complete bzr history for a particular branch, running a script on the working tree for every commit (much like what git filter-branch) allows you to do...I haven't found any existing command that will do this in a simple way (I'd like to preseve commit authors, merges, renames etc), so I'm guessing I'll have to do a plugin myself - could anyone supply some useful pointers for where to look?
[10:40] <poolie> hi arnetheduck
[10:40] <poolie> just the mainline or every single revision?
[10:40] <poolie> oh, you want to change the tree along the way?
[10:45] <arnetheduck> poolie, every single revision and with a script applied for each one
[10:45] <poolie> probably starting a plugin to do it would be good
[10:46] <poolie> something like branch.iter_merge_sorted_revisions()
[10:46] <poolie> then for each
[10:46] <arnetheduck> (fixing line endings =)
[10:46] <poolie> wt.update(revision)
[10:47] <poolie> then, i guess, commit it to a separate branch
[10:47] <poolie> you could perhaps look at adding this into the bzr-rewrite plugin
[10:48] <arnetheduck> yeah, I had a quick look at that one but it wasn't obvious how to record renames for example and how to assign (one or more) parent revisions to a commit etc
[10:50] <arnetheduck> I'm guessing iter_merge_sorted_revisions guarantees that all commits leading up to a particular revision have been visited?
[10:51] <arnetheduck> getting a working tree looked simple enough so then the biggest problem would be to get the commit properties right
[10:52] <poolie> yes
[10:53] <poolie> the nice thing if you modify the working tree is that it should keep the same metadata for renames etc
[10:53] <poolie> i thought bzr rewrite did this though
[10:53] <poolie> if you come up with any kind of reusable patch that does this i'd really like to help merge it
[10:53] <jam> poolie: we have "bzr fast-import-filter"
[10:53] <jam> I don't think we have anything for rewrite yet
[10:54] <poolie> Riddell, thanks for the review
[10:54] <jam> arnetheduck: "bzr fast-export content.fi && cat content.fi | bzr fast-import-filter | bzr fast-import" I *think* works.
[10:57] <arnetheduck> jam, fast-import-filter only allows filtering the file list, not contents, afaict
[10:57] <jam> arnetheduck: probably
[10:57] <jam> that is the only filtering that I'm currently aware of
[10:57] <jam> I think adding it to replay/rebase/whatever looks good
[10:58] <jam> arnetheduck: did you end up signing the contributor agreement? We'd like to land: https://code.launchpad.net/~arnetheduck/bzr/bzr-log-author/+merge/63751
[10:58] <arnetheduck> jam, yes I did (but I think I might have misspelled your email when cc:ing)...martin pool has a copy though.
[10:59] <jam> arnetheduck: no problems on my side, and martin may have already added you to the approved list. I just figured it was quickest to just ask you :)
[11:00] <jam> yes, martin has marked it as such
[11:00] <jam> I was just waiting for the script to finish running that verified it
[11:01] <arnetheduck> so, a) how do I add a rename to a commit (code-wise...it looked messy on my first perusal of bzr commit/bzr rename) and b) apart from properties (incidentally the ones searched by log-author=), is there anything else that should be recorded?
[11:01] <poolie> wt.rename ought to do it
[11:02] <poolie> if you don't want to add new renames to the tree, you shouldn't need to worry
[11:02] <poolie> the other thing you may need to take care to preserve is the revision DAG
[11:02] <poolie> in particluar if you're rewriting them you'll need to set the tree revision parents to the newly rewritte ones
[11:03] <arnetheduck> yeah, I'm guessing i should be committing to a separate branch essentially creating a copy (with different commit id's)
[11:04] <arnetheduck> and the list of renames is available on the branch object?
[11:05] <jam> poolie: I think arnetheduck is re-creating the ability to replay a diff
[11:06] <jam> arnetheduck: I think you should try to use rewrite's code that already does that
[11:06] <arnetheduck> also - how close to this is the rewrite plugin? not that I put very much effort into it but I didn't immedeately understand what it did (code-wise) so I stopped reading...perhaps I should take a second look?
[11:06] <jam> arnetheduck: it should do 90% of the work for you, which is setting up a new tree that looks just like another tree but with a new source
[11:06] <poolie> jelmer will be back online tomorrow, i think, and could talk to you about it
[11:06] <poolie> right
[11:06] <jam> you just need to add a hook/etc to call your code
[11:06] <jam> with something that can mutate the tree content as well.
[11:08] <jam> from what I can tell "WorkingTreeRevisionRewriter" and "RebaseState1" are things to look at
[11:09] <arnetheduck> I think it was the references to "rebase" that scared me off...I've never quite understood why people would want to do that =)
[11:09] <jam> arnetheduck: it is essentially, create a revision with this diff applied to that revision
[11:10] <jam> which is pretty much what you are doing, with "this diff" being custom for your use case
[11:10] <Riddell> jam: lp:~jr/bzr/bzr-log-author
[11:12] <Riddell> jam: in bzrlib/log.py  at "searchRE ="
[11:15] <arnetheduck> I'll have another look then, thanks
[11:21] <poolie> good night
[11:25] <jam> maxb: the other thing with your script, is that if it is fast enough we can easily put it in such that it happens whenever you access a given branch
[11:25] <jam> rather than having a separate command.
[11:26] <maxb> Or, at least whenever you branch/pull/update
[11:30] <jam> maxb: right. is there a way to filter by series?
[11:30] <jam> since when you go to "ubuntu/..." you know you want the latest 'oneiric', or whatever
[11:30] <jam> I'm just noticing that the returned data seems oddly sorted
[11:30] <jam> so I'm wondering if we can be sure we have the latest
[11:30] <jam> maybe it is always the latest in each pocket/series/whatever?
[11:32] <maxb>             'distro_series': '/ubuntu/natty', for example
[11:32] <Riddell> jam: https://code.launchpad.net/~gary-wilson/bzr-loom/docs/+merge/66826 looks like it's ready for merging, does loom use pqm or direct merges?
[11:32] <jam> Riddell: direct merges
[11:32] <Riddell> ok, I'll do that
[11:33] <maxb> jam: Given that we're filtering on the "Published" status, it will be the latest (except potentially you might get two if you hit the API at exactly the moment of a new publication, I think)
[11:33] <jam> maxb: but the "distro series" has to be a full URI...
[11:33]  * maxb hugs undocumented features :-)
[11:34] <maxb> Also, technically "/ubuntu/natty" is an URI
[11:34] <jam> maxb: I imagine it matches whatever comes back in "distro_series_link"
[11:34] <jam> ah, I was just doing "natty"
[11:34] <jam> yeah, /ubuntu/natty
[11:34] <jam> works
[11:34] <jam> and seems to be quite a bit faster
[11:34] <maxb> jam: However, we won't be able to make this work so well for Debian, I think, since LP never actually sets Debian publications to the Published state, they remain Pending forever
[11:34] <jam> well, 2-300 ms faster
[11:35] <maxb> As such, we have no way to conveniently get just the most recent one
[11:35] <jam> there doesn't seem to be anything in "Pending" for bzr
[11:36] <jam> but that matches: https://launchpad.net/debian/+source/bzr
[11:36] <maxb> There's nothing "Pending" in ubuntu, there is in debian
[11:37] <maxb> Well, I suppose we always have the option of just setting ws.size to 1 and trusting the sort order to do something sensible
[11:37] <jam> maxb: I did a query for "Pending" with no distro_series, and it came back empty
[11:37] <jam> maxb: trusting the sort order to do something sensible....
[11:37] <maxb> Did you also change the archive to debian/+archive/primary ?
[11:37] <jam> I don't have that kind of faith
[11:37] <jam> maxb: good point
[11:37] <maxb> https://launchpad.net/debian/+source/bzr/+publishinghistory for example
[11:39] <jam> the sort order does seem to be reverse debian sort order
[11:39] <jam> however, that means it mixes distro_series groups
[11:39] <jam> but that might be ok if we start restricting by that
[11:40] <maxb> There is also a pocket parameter on the API call
[11:40] <maxb> Takes a value like '"Backports"'
[11:40] <jam> right
[11:41] <jam> so if you grab "ubuntu/natty-proposed" we have to split that into a distro-series and a pocket, right?
[11:41] <maxb> right
[11:41] <jam> "lp:ubuntu/natty-proposed/bzr"
[11:42] <maxb> (or do a bunch more round trips to resolve that, which somewhat defeats the point)
[11:43] <jam> well, something small is ok, but I do notice that getting the debian results is quite a bit slower
[11:43] <jam> I presume because it asks the db to sort and get everything to just return new stuff
[12:41] <jam> ugh, my home network just decided it wasn't going to route packets to the world anymore. So now I'm on "3g". but at least I'm online
[13:32] <indigo> in my dev branch, "bzr status" is showing an uncommitted merge, but I don't remember from what branch I merged. Is there some way to find out?
[13:32] <indigo> i know if i commit the changes, then the branch nick will be displayed in the log, but i'd like to know without committing.
[13:36] <maxb> If you have it, the GUI "bzr qlog" would be a simple way of seeing it
[13:36] <indigo> gui? what's that? ;)
[13:37] <fullermd> It's what you get when you spill coffee on your punch cards.
[13:37] <indigo> i thought it was a way to run more terminals at a higher resolution than supported on the console.
[13:38] <fullermd> 'stat -v' will give you the full list of revs pending; that might point you in the right direction.
[13:38] <fullermd> Also: "history | grep merge"   :p
[13:38] <indigo> yeah, stat -v gives me the log messages and dates of the pending revs, but not the branch nick
[13:39] <indigo> i found the branch manually, but still i'd like to know for the future
[13:41] <fullermd> I've often believed that --show-ids should make stat show the revids of pending merge revs (though space concerns make it not entirely obvious how).  That would let you point log at 'em.
[13:41] <fullermd> Some way to dump info about pending merges would be handy, to be sure.  Of course, the nick may or may not really tell you anything useful.
[13:42] <indigo> garbage in, garbage out applies for sure
[13:43] <fullermd> Maybe WT_FORMAT++ should include a placeholder for "URL of pending merge"...
[13:44] <indigo> maybe, but i'd think if information would be available in a log after a commit (like the branch nick) there should be a way to get that information without committing
[13:45] <fullermd> Well, since the rev is in your local repo, you can show it with log.
[13:45] <indigo> how do i show it without committing it?
[13:45] <fullermd> Just a matter of finding the revid, which the CLI doesn't expose anywhere I know of.
[13:45] <indigo> ah.
[13:46] <indigo> i would say just changing stat -v to put the branch nick in the list of pending merges would be a good solution
[13:46] <fullermd> (which is why qlog can do it; it just looks at the revid in the internal WT structure and shows from it)
[13:46] <indigo> that's where i'd think to look for the information i want, anyway
[13:47] <fullermd> IWBNI(tm) the full complement of 'log' options were available for that list of pending merges.  Alternately, a revspec/option for log to look directly at them from there.
[13:47] <fullermd> ('course, that also ties into the "standardize log-like options" pile too.  Whee.)
[13:48] <indigo> it would, but i never would have thought to use "log" to look at things i haven't committed.
[13:48] <indigo> i always thought of "status" as a sort of "log" for uncomitted things.
[13:48] <fullermd> Anyway.  I have to go yell at a client for screwing up their data.  Again.
[13:49] <indigo> put those clients in their place
[13:49] <fullermd> I DO have a shovel just lying around...
[13:49]  * fullermd didn't say that out loud.
[16:13] <vila> maxb: I'm about to announce 2.4b5, did you have troubles upgrading the ppas or is it just lack of time ?
[16:15] <vila> maxb: or may be you're waiting for sid ?
[17:01] <maxb> vila: Oh, whoops. I just failed to notice a release going on :-/
[17:01] <maxb> I'd normally wait for sid, but do work to make sid happen faster
[17:04] <maxb> I suggest announcing, and barring unexpected problems, I'll sort the PPA tonight
[17:06] <jamdahl> I've got a storage efficiency question
[17:07] <jamdahl> I'm working on a plugin for Excel that does version control for workbooks and VBA code using bazaar
[17:07] <jamdahl> the code is exported to text files for easy diff-ing, but the excel files themselves are zipped
[17:08] <jamdahl> looking at the size of my repos, it looks like bazaar is can't handle file deltas for zip files and instead ends up storing the equivalent of a whole new copy of the excel file with each commit
[17:09] <jamdahl> if I switch to a non-binary excel format, like xml, am I going to get more efficient storage?
[17:10] <jamdahl> even though each each individual xml excel file will be bigger than xlsm/xlsx
[17:36] <maxb> Hmm, it's looking like oneiric's python has broken bzr test stuff
[17:36] <maxb> A number of failures in the daily PPA
[17:39] <dobey> hey all. i have some questions about locking branches inside a process using bzrlib. is there a way to lock a branch, do everything i want with it, and then unlock it, with bzrlib, or do i *have* to unlock/lock around certain actions like merge and commit?
[18:02] <indigo> jamdahl: if the diffs are small, i believe the answer is "yes"
[18:04] <indigo> jamdahl: actually, maybe bzr does do binary deltas, but if you are zipping your files, then you will never get small diffs
[18:05] <indigo> jamdahl: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2006q4/019182.html
[18:14] <jamdahl> To be clear, I'm not zipping the files, excel format from 2007 on is a zip file. :P
[18:14] <jamdahl> really what I'm considering is unzipping stuff before I pass it to Bazaar
[18:15] <jamdahl> Running an expirment with that now, but unforunately the tons of xml files are completely choking the diff even with small changes :(
[18:20] <dobey> jamdahl: i'm guessing that the xml bits of msoffice/openoffice documents are not particularly well formatted
[18:21] <jamdahl> Opened up one of the changed files.  It's all on one line...
[18:22] <jamdahl> 137kb of xml on one line
[18:23] <dobey> yep
[18:24] <ZyX-I> Hello. All links for 2.4 beta release on http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/WindowsDownloads are broken.
[18:27] <ZyX-I> Is there a msi installer for bzr somewhere or something other that does not require user interaction?
[18:45] <jamdahl> unzipping the excel files is definitely not going to work with the lousy xml formatting.  Any ideas on how to avoid the storage problem?
[18:45] <dobey> jamdahl: i must have missed it; what is your problem exactly?
[18:49] <jamdahl> I've written a plugin to do version control for excel spreadsheets + the VBA inside them
[18:49] <jamdahl> the VBA code exports to text files that bazaar plays nice with
[18:50] <jamdahl> but every time the sheet changes, the whole new excel file (or close to it) gets stored because its a zip file
[18:50] <jamdahl> so every time I do a new commit, the repo increases in size pretty close to whatever the size of the spreadsheet is... Not particularly good
[18:51] <dobey> ah
[18:52] <dobey> unfortunately, i think the only solutions to that are "don't use msoffice" or "don't store msoffice files in bzr" :/
[18:52] <dobey> unless maybe you can also write a filter or something, so that when the office file gets saved, you format the XML nicely, so you don't get this problem
[18:54] <jamdahl> unfortunately, it would be a pain in the ass to go into 20+ xml files for each excel document and reformat that every time after they are changed :(
[18:57] <dobey> jamdahl: by "filter or something" i meant "extension to excel, such that it happens when the file is saved"
[18:57] <fullermd> There is theoretically infrastructure in bzr to allow writing a plugin that does that for you.  There's occasional talk about how to do so.
[18:58] <dobey> or you could do it with a bzr plug-in probably
[19:02] <jamdahl> development of a bzr plugin is beyond my current coding capabilities
[19:02] <jamdahl> I'm not terribly experienced in anything but VBA right now
[19:05] <jamdahl> hmmm, expirimenting with the older excel format
[19:05] <jamdahl> I don't think the older ones are zipped
[19:07] <jamdahl> gah, older format breaks too much functionality
[19:16] <dobey> the older format is a binary
[19:16] <dobey> a funky majestic binary
[19:16] <dobey> of course, a lot of the new format is just <xmltag>streamofbinary</xmltag>
[19:16] <dobey> lovely insanity, that
[19:18]  * dobey wonders who to talk to about bzrlib.branch.Branch locking, though
[19:19] <jamdahl> binary isn't as bad as zipped :P
[19:20] <dobey> zip files are binaries
[19:21] <jamdahl> Zip files are a particularly kind of binaries that suck for deltas due to compression algorithms
[19:22] <jamdahl> But the truth is, (most?, many?) binary files don't binary diff that well anyway. Frequently they are compressed, which means a modification near the beginning tends to have a chain reaction over a large distance (possibly the whole rest of the file).
[19:22] <jamdahl> that's a quote from the page indigo linked
[19:22] <jamdahl> so a non-compressed binary is less-than-ideal, but better than a compressed one
[19:22] <dobey> well often, there's a header, and then the compressed content
[19:23] <dobey> and if anything changes in the content, it gets recompressed, so the whole block changes
[19:24] <jamdahl> Right now what I'm trying is the new binary excel format which is zipped binaries
[19:24] <jamdahl> I don't think the binaries that are zipped are themselves compressed
[19:24] <dobey> well, a lot of the data in them is probably compressed
[19:26] <jamdahl> Doesn't make much sense to double-compress
[19:26] <jamdahl> It wouldn't speak well of zip compression if that actually saved any space
[19:39] <maxb> Hrm. The armel-cross-toolchain-base UDD import really is interestingly broken
[19:40] <maxb> The importer has reimported several package versions multiple times onto the maverick branch
[21:48] <poolie> hi all
[22:43] <Riddell> g'day poolie
[23:04] <maxb> Riddell: Hi. I think I've found a problem with the new signature checking changes to log - I've had bzr qlog crashing on me because RemoteRepository doesn't implement verify_revision
[23:04] <maxb> I need to file a proper bug still - but since you're around :-)
[23:04] <maxb> or not
[23:13] <spiv> maxb: hmm, that suggests that a) we're missing per_repo tests for verify_revision, and b) that a quick _ensure_real shim would deal with the problem for now.
[23:52] <mgz> ...how do I make hg give me something I can attach to a bug? their bundles aren't very friendly.
[23:55] <mgz> I'm trying to get an upstream fix for bug 809048 accepted.
[23:59] <lifeless> mgz: hg diff