[00:00] <emmajane> You can also create catalogues, which are sort of like a shopping store of entities that you want to use in multiple projects.
[00:00] <emmajane> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/entity/spec-2001-08-06.html <--- scary specification document.
[00:01] <emmajane> That wraps up our time, but I'm happy to stick around if people have more questions!
[00:02] <emmajane> Thanks for slogging through it with me. These are conceptually very difficult topics!
[05:27] <marcelo_> I have installed Ubuntu 9.04 and have notice the slowness of graphics!!!  Xorg is taking up 30% of my cpu and beagle-helper is taking up 15% to 20% of my cpu...    thats on avarage 50% of my cpu!!!   can anyone please help me before i have to back to vista witch ran just fine....   I am a nuwby to linux and have liked it so far but now I am stuck with this problem.
[05:32] <Froad> marcelo_ this is not the correct channel
[05:32] <Froad> although I understand your concerns please go to #ubuntu
[05:33] <marcelo_> Froad ok, thanks
[08:15] <huma> this open week is a neat idea
[08:50] <nickleus> hi from norway
[09:08] <nickleus> pretty quite "classroom" :)
[09:09] <nickleus> quiet
[09:19] <AtomicSpark> Yes, it's for the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[09:41] <Odd_Bloke> Things will kick off again at 1500 UTC.
[09:42] <AtomicSpark> Which is too early for me. Tis why we have screen + irssi.
[10:55] <yussri> 8-)
[12:05] <mimir|on> kirkland: great work on the screen profiles articles
[14:09] <thegrieve> ?
[14:09] <thegrieve> wrong terminal :)
[15:41] <morphus> hi do any one have some idea for solution, after clean install a ubuntu 9.04, and install "vlc" and "mozilla-plugin-vlc" , i can't live stream from some servers, i got that kind of pop up massage "unsafe option "rtsp-tcp" has been ignored for security reasons", vlc plug in works in 8.10 but not in 9.04
[15:45] <thegrieve> its possible firefox is rejecting the protocol, try getting the streams address and opening it directly in vlc
[15:47] <jcastro> ~13 minutes!
[15:55] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[16:00] <jcastro> ok, just a few more to let everyone settle down
[16:00] <Ireyon> 0 minutes.
[16:00] <jcastro> how is everyone today?
[16:00] <jcastro> I hope you're all set for a full day of sessions!
[16:00] <artir_>  yeah!
[16:00] <JFo> wooo!
[16:00] <akgraner> GREAT!
[16:00] <jcastro> today we're going to start with Ken Vandine, who will talk about the messaging-indicator
[16:01] <tang0> yes! :-D
[16:01] <jcastro> but he's on the desktop team so you can probably ask him all sorts of questions. :)
[16:01] <jcastro> kenvandine_wk: ready?
[16:01] <kenvandine_wk> yup
[16:01] <jcastro> as always, please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:01] <jcastro> but we'll keep this open for followups just in case
[16:02] <kenvandine_wk> ok, this is an introduction to the messaging indicator in ubuntu
[16:02] <kenvandine_wk> this is some of the new work that has come out of the desktop experience team, now called Ayatana
[16:03] <kenvandine_wk> The messaging indicator, also known as the indicator-applet, is a central place to keep track of messages that you might need to be concerned about.
[16:03] <kenvandine_wk> If you are running Jaunty, you should see the applet in your panel
[16:03] <kenvandine_wk> next to the notification area, a little envelope
[16:04] <kenvandine_wk> The focus is on human-to-human messaging, for example; instant messaging, e-mail, social networking, etc.
[16:05] <kenvandine_wk> By tracking these in a single applet, instead of displaying separate icons in the notification area or on the panel, we save a considerable amount of realestate and cut down on the clutter.
[16:06] <kenvandine_wk> We also get the benefit of a single place in the panel to find messages waiting review/attention.
[16:06] <kenvandine_wk> Current applications that take advantage of the messaging indicator include:  pidgin, evolution, gajim, and gwibber
[16:07] <kenvandine_wk> at least that I know of... I hope more will soon
[16:07] <kenvandine_wk> ok, that is the intro... now lets get to some questions
[16:07] <kenvandine_wk> Ireyon: QUESTION: does it affect the gnome desktop only? or has kubuntu a similar feature?
[16:08] <kenvandine_wk> currently gnome only, there isn't an applet for kde yet
[16:08] <kenvandine_wk> however I hope that changes in the karmic cycle
[16:08] <kenvandine_wk> tgm4883: QUESTION:  Whats the use case between this and the popup notifier?  As a developer, why should I use one over the other?
[16:09] <kenvandine_wk> they aren't really related at all
[16:09] <kenvandine_wk> the popup notifier (notifications) are only displayed for a few seconds
[16:09] <kenvandine_wk> we will talk a little more about that in a few
[16:10] <kenvandine_wk> the messaging indicator is a list of messages you might need to act on
[16:10] <kenvandine_wk> and IM from your friend jane for example
[16:10] <kenvandine_wk> or that you have 23 unread emails
[16:10] <kenvandine_wk> or someone replied to a comment you made on gwibber
[16:10] <kenvandine_wk> they show up in the list of messages in the indicator applet
[16:10] <kenvandine_wk> and you can click on them to act
[16:11] <kenvandine_wk> they persist there until you act on them
[16:11] <kenvandine_wk> notifications just show for a few seconds and go away, to draw your attention to them briefly
[16:11] <kenvandine_wk> khensthoth: QUESTION: It's true that it saves space and prevents clutter. However, for someone who has, say a 19" screen, screen real estate is not a really problem. The problem is now one has more clicks before getting to what he wants, and hence lower efficiency. How is the applet beneficial then?
[16:12] <kenvandine_wk> it is true that with the pidgin icon in the notification area, a single click would take you to a message
[16:12] <kenvandine_wk> but what if you had messages from 6 people?
[16:12] <kenvandine_wk> it only takes you to the latest, so extra clicks there
[16:13] <kenvandine_wk> the real benefit is a single place for the user to look
[16:13] <kenvandine_wk> LjL: QUESTION: but libnotify/notification-daemon supports interactive notifications, in principle (and in practice, in the reference implementation). why develop a separate API instead of employing the existing and previously used one?
[16:14] <kenvandine_wk> the indicator isn't related to libnotify or notification-daemon
[16:14] <kenvandine_wk> it is a new way to track messages and act on them, they aren't notifications that are passing
[16:14] <kenvandine_wk> i will do a quick Q & A on the notification changes as well when we finish the indicator Q & A
[16:14] <LjL> yes, that's what i'm saying - it's not related, when to my understanding it could easily be, since the libnotify API itself supports sticky, interactive notifications
[16:16] <kenvandine_wk> garethj: QUESTION: I had a quick look at implementing something that used the indicator applet in Python but struggled to find any documentation and the samples were for quite specific purposes. Is there some detailed developer documentation that I missed (API rather than conceptual) somewhere or are there plans to produce some?
[16:16] <kenvandine_wk> Yes, there isn't much documentation yet
[16:17] <kenvandine_wk> there is an article on using the indicator in your application in the next GNOME Journal, keep an eye on gnomejournal.org
[16:17] <kenvandine_wk> there are also a couple examples in the python-indicate source
[16:18] <kenvandine_wk>  JPohlmann: QUESTION: Are there any plans on a message indication specification (thinking freedesktop.org here)? What are your thoughts on creating a library for the messaging plugins and communication between the indicator/applications that could be used outside the message indicator you guys wrote (e.g. in KDE or Xfce)?
[16:18] <kenvandine_wk> sorry, I am am not really sure if they are working on proposing a spec for that, but it would be a good idea imho
[16:18] <kenvandine_wk>  guillom: QUESTION: the indicator applet now notifies about things that were filtered (and hidden) before (e.g. the getting-online notifications from pidgin when in silent mode); this looks like a regression, since now one is overwhelmed by useless notifications ; is this behaviour a bug, a feature or a matter of configuration?.
[16:19] <kenvandine_wk> yes and no
[16:19] <kenvandine_wk> for example, if your friend Jorge shows up online, yes it adds an indicator for that even so you can quickly IM him if you want to harrass him :)
[16:19] <kenvandine_wk> but
[16:20] <kenvandine_wk> since jorge didn't IM you, it goes away after some time limit without acting on it
[16:20] <kenvandine_wk> i think it is like 30 seconds, but not sure
[16:20] <kenvandine_wk> Artir: QUESTION: ayatana is composed right now of notify-osd and notiticator-applet. What's next?
[16:21] <kenvandine_wk> Keep an eye on what is going on at UDS next month, there should be lots of discussion there
[16:22] <kenvandine_wk> ^arky^: QUESTION: libnotify does work quite well with orca screen reader. Will you continue to work closely with orca and gnome a11y team in future also
[16:22] <kenvandine_wk> i think there are open bugs about that and some discussion on the mailing list, not sure what the current plans are
[16:22] <kenvandine_wk>  jtholmes: QUESTION: i know zip about IM'ing but do know that some IM's can talk to others etc.  where is the list of what IM's can talk to what IM's
[16:22] <kenvandine_wk> not sure what you mean there, you mean multiple protocols?
[16:23] <kenvandine_wk> the indicator is more event based, it doesn't care what creates it
[16:23] <jtholmes> no what can pidgin talk to etc.
[16:23] <kenvandine_wk> pidgin talks to pidgin
[16:23] <kenvandine_wk> as far as the indicator is concerned
[16:24] <kenvandine_wk> pidgin tells the indicator when there is an event you should be concerned about
[16:24] <kenvandine_wk> ok, any more questions before we talk about notify-osd?
[16:24] <kenvandine_wk> ok, moving on
[16:25] <kenvandine_wk> i want to touch on the notification changes as well and answer questions people might have
[16:25] <kenvandine_wk> in Jaunty, notification-daemon was replaced by notifiy-osd
[16:25] <kenvandine_wk> To improve the user experience for notifications in Ubuntu, the Desktop Notifications Specification should be implemented in a consistent way, with non-interactive, non-directional, non-overlapping notification bubbles that can be clicked through and look beautiful.
[16:26] <kenvandine_wk> Visual confirmation of hotkey changes to volume, screen brightness, and backlight brightness should also be presented in bubbles the same way as notifications.
[16:26] <kenvandine_wk> following the old specification, created a rather tortured workflow imho
[16:27] <kenvandine_wk> so not only do the notifications look nicer now
[16:27] <kenvandine_wk> they are more consistent
[16:27] <kenvandine_wk> they always appear in the same place
[16:27] <kenvandine_wk> they don't stack... you see them in the order they are recieved
[16:27] <kenvandine_wk> and they never required interaction
[16:28] <kenvandine_wk> if an application needs you to do something, it should raise an alert box (unfocused)
[16:29] <kenvandine_wk> BugeyeD: QUESTION: in the screen-profiles session, we learned that items were available/present for most status/notification items right in the screen profile. does the messaging indicator also have a tie-in to screen?
[16:30] <kenvandine_wk> no... but that sure would be cool
[16:30] <kenvandine_wk> LjL: QUESTION: you said you are currently not planning a freedesktop spec. notify-osd, on the other hand, follows an existing proposed freedesktop spec. that spec provides actions, as well as notifications that don't expire after few seconds (according to http://www.galago-project.org/specs/notification/0.9/x408.html#command-get-capabilities). it's just that notify-osd dropped support for those features, which are however pr
[16:31] <kenvandine_wk> i didn't actually say that, i don't know if there is for the messaging indicator
[16:31] <kenvandine_wk> notification are different than the indicator
[16:31] <kenvandine_wk> we are proposing 1.0 of that notification spec
[16:31] <kenvandine_wk> which doesn't allow for actions
[16:32] <kenvandine_wk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD for more information
[16:32] <kenvandine_wk> Ireyon: QUESTION: why not use interactive notifications such as in kde? a singe button labled "update" or so does not disturb, does it?
[16:32] <kenvandine_wk> i think the answer to that is also explained pretty well on that wiki page
[16:32] <kenvandine_wk> but, the general idea is a notification is just that
[16:32] <kenvandine_wk> a notification
[16:33] <kenvandine_wk> not something to act on
[16:33] <LjL> doesn't click-through also have to do with that?
[16:33] <kenvandine_wk>  _marx_: QUESTION: Can Thunderbird communicate with message notifier?
[16:34] <kenvandine_wk> it could
[16:34] <kenvandine_wk> but it doesn't yet
[16:34] <kenvandine_wk> someone needs to add indicator support to TB, not sure if anyone is working on that though
[16:35] <kenvandine_wk> any more questions?
[16:36] <kenvandine_wk> if anyone has a application that you really think could benefit from the messaging indicator
[16:36] <kenvandine_wk> please file bugs
[16:36] <kenvandine_wk> let us (or upstream) know you use it
[16:37] <kenvandine_wk> and developers keep an eye out for the next edition of the GNOME Journal for a tutorial
[16:37] <kenvandine_wk> i guess that's it... thanks for your time
[16:37] <kenvandine_wk> and i hope the indicator improves your user experience!
[16:38] <arkarin> just take a short look at https://launchpad.net/libnotify-mozilla for TB-support
[16:38] <kenvandine_wk> arkarin: thx!
[16:39] <JFo> wooo kenvandine_wk
[16:39] <JFo> thanks man
[16:39]  * Ireyon claps
[16:40]  * ^arky^ claps
[16:40] <kenvandine_wk> i guess you guys get a 20m break until the How to market and plan an Ubuntu Party  session starts
[16:40] <jcastro> huats: 20 minute warning!
[16:40] <jcastro> thanks kenvandine_wk!
[16:40] <huats> jcastro: thanks :)
[16:40] <akgraner> kenvandine_wk, Thanks!
[16:41] <olive> \o/ 4K !
[16:45] <quesh> \o/
[16:50] <jcastro> 10 minute warning!
[16:51] <huats> jcastro: will you be around during the session ?
[16:51] <huats> (for pasting questions I mean)
[16:52] <kenvandine_wk> hey!  he didn't do that for me!
[16:52] <huats> :)
[16:52] <kenvandine_wk> jcastro should owe me a beer at UDS :)
[16:53] <jcastro> huats: I am idling around, but if you could paste your own questions so I can get other stuff done today that would be great. :)
[16:53] <huats> jcastro: sure
[16:54] <huats> kenvandine_wk: he don't want to get you a beer I think ;)
[16:54] <kenvandine_wk> ha
[16:54] <kenvandine_wk> i'll find an excuse
[16:54] <huats> ;)
[16:55] <huats> I am sure you will
[16:55] <huats> or I'll try to help you to find one :D
[16:55] <jcastro> huats: you can also ask for a volunteer to paste questions if you want more people to participate!
[16:55]  * kenvandine_wk watches jorge ignore us
[16:55] <huats> jcastro: I was about to :)
[16:57] <huats> is there any one here who might help me by pasting questions  from -chat during the next session (I am giving it)
[16:57] <jcastro> kenvandine_wk: I'm not ignoring you, just selectively listening
[16:57] <jcastro> 3 minutes!
[16:57]  * huats is paying a beer at the UDS for the one doing that :)
[16:58] <mcsean> huats: how long is the session/
[16:58] <mcsean> ?
[16:58] <huats> 1h
[16:58] <mcsean> I can help
[16:58] <huats> mcsean: ok great
[16:59] <huats> mcsean: but you need to be on #ubuntu-classroom-chat tosee the questions :)
[16:59] <mcsean> huats: so, any guidelines/procedures?
[17:00] <quesh> 18H00
[17:00] <jcastro> ok huats, take it away!
[17:00] <jcastro> discussion in -chat please!
[17:00] <huats> great !
[17:01] <huats> I think it is time to get started
[17:01] <huats> right jcastro ?
[17:01] <jcastro> yep!
[17:01] <huats> ok
[17:01] <huats> let's go
[17:01] <huats> First a little introduction. My name is Christophe Sauthier, and I am the leader of Ubuntu-fr, the french loco.
[17:01] <huats> I am going to talk about : "How to market and plan an Ubuntu Party"
[17:02] <huats> please post all you questions on #ubuntu-classroom-chat, starting them by QUESTION:
[17:02] <huats> and mcsean will paste them here
[17:02] <huats> (he might filters them a bit)
[17:03] <huats> For the past few years we (Ubuntu-fr) are getting famous, for many actions
[17:03] <huats> and in particular our parties which gathered many people
[17:03] <huats> with "THE" 4000 party that happened in Paris in last November.
[17:03] <huats> Our team have been asked for some months to detail our best practices. This is what we are getting to do right now.
[17:04] <huats> I will detail that in this session, feels free to ask all your questions on the dedicated channel. Starting them by QUESTION:
[17:04] <huats> I will try to answer them inside the session or at the end, in a dedicated time, with the help of others members of the team.
[17:04] <huats> Ubuntu Party ? What is it ?
[17:04] <huats> First of all what do we organize ?
[17:05] <huats> It is important to say that for us, the interest is not to do a simple release party with coders.
[17:05] <huats> No, we want to share Ubuntu around us, and even more since we want to help to promote free software and free culture by promoting Ubuntu.
[17:05] <huats> So it is important for us to gather some other communities during our event.
[17:06] <huats> As a result in our last event there were a conference from the mozilla community, some free software french supporters, some free culture conferences and workshops.
[17:06] <huats> Date/Place
[17:06] <huats> The first step is not necessary the most simple :
[17:06] <huats> to set the perfect date and the perfect place.
[17:06] <huats> Based on our various experiences, it is a crucial step.
[17:07] <huats> You have to decide them a long time before the event.
[17:07] <huats> By instance our next event (16-17 May) dates have been decided in last november !
[17:07] <huats>  It is important  for your audience to find a place with good public transportations, parking.
[17:08] <huats> and many stuffs that might help them to come easily
[17:08] <huats> Even if the place is not famous for its technical conferences, we rather have a place that is know to people, so that they can say
[17:08] <huats> "if it happens there, in this place that I know, I might find something interesting for me".
[17:08] <huats> Also try to find a place and (when it is possible) and stick with it...
[17:09] <huats> We are doing our party in Paris in the same place since feisty.
[17:09] <huats> So now our audience know the place.
[17:09] <huats> Is there any questions so far ?
[17:09] <huats> am I going to quick ? too slow ?
[17:09] <mcsean> None so far
[17:09] <olive> any beers ?
[17:10] <huats> ok
[17:10] <huats> so let's proceed
[17:10] <huats> Building a team
[17:10] <huats> Once you know where and when your event will take place, you can ask yourself :
[17:10] <huats> who will be there to organize.
[17:10] <huats> ?
[17:10] <huats> I am sure you have lots of people in each of your teams willing to help.
[17:11] <huats> So finding a group of core organizers should not be a real problem.
[17:11] <huats> But keep in mind that you have to pick people you can rely on
[17:11] <huats> Currently our group is composed of about 10 people.
[17:12] <huats> This group is in charge of leading/planning the event from this moment.
[17:12] <huats> Each tasks should be done by pairs, so that you have backup is someone cannot participate anymore for any reasons.
[17:12] <huats> And most of all every actions should be trackable on a common repository (we use a wiki).
[17:13] <huats> Each aspect of the event should be lead by someone designated before the event.
[17:13] <huats> Imagine that during our last event there was around 100 people willing to help...
[17:13] <huats> It was needed to have them driven/assigned before the event.
[17:14] <huats> It is also important to notice that we are doing all our event with the help of LUGs (especially regarding the install party part).
[17:15] <huats> question ?
[17:16] <mcsean> QUESTION: how do get the word out to a large number of people?
[17:17] <huats> We do rely on LUGs for a large part of it
[17:17] <huats> (especially for the install party which is really people consumming)
[17:17] <olive> we have big forum
[17:17] <huats> we also have a lot of volunteers to help
[17:17] <huats> that are getting in touch thanks to our forums
[17:18] <huats> in fact we do have a great thing : since we are french speakers, a lot of our community is using our forums
[17:18] <huats> (the french speaking one)
[17:19] <huats> it helps to gather the people, and it ease the broadcasting of the informations
[17:19] <Froad> RAWR
[17:19] <huats> I'll continue
[17:19] <huats> Having a team is good.
[17:19] <mcsean> QUESTION: if you don't have a LUG in your area, has your experience been that a release-party is a great way to get one started up?
[17:20] <huats> hard to say
[17:20] <huats> of course you can do a release party without a LUG
[17:20] <huats> but in that cas you need to start to build a comunity
[17:21] <huats> and it is a completly different topic that running a party
[17:21] <huats> I think that in that case
[17:21] <huats> announcing an event
[17:21] <huats> might be a great way to meet people with the same interest
[17:21] <huats> and thus to initiate a community
[17:21] <huats> not necessary a LUG
[17:22] <huats> OK I continue
[17:23] <huats> vent if we spend most of our time on IRC, we really think that there is a need for at least 4 real life meetings for each party :
[17:23] <huats> 3 before and 1 after.
[17:23] <huats> It helps to work on the project but also to allow people to know more each other, which is great for the community.
[17:23] <huats> Each meeting is separated by a month at least.
[17:24] <huats> Creating a conference Planning
[17:24] <huats> Since our event is not only an install party, but also filed with  conferences, we have to set up a real conferences planning.
[17:25] <huats> We start by putting down names of conferencers we like and themes that we would like to have.
[17:25] <huats> On the first of the IRL meeting, the conferences are selected.
[17:25] <huats> Then the people in charge of dealing with it contact each envisaged conferencer to explain him the idea and the date.
[17:25] <akgraner> QUESTION:  I am really new Ubuntu so besides release parties, bug jams, install Fests, what other cool Ubuntu things can you plan a party for?
[17:25] <huats> We want to have the conference program (with schedule and the conferencers agreement) finalized at least 1 month before the event.
[17:26] <huats> akgraner: there are many others stuffs to do
[17:27] <huats> we are about to do some documentation jam, based on the same principles than bug jam but to ensure the quality of our documentation (wiki) which currently gathers thousands of articles
[17:28] <huats> akgraner: it is not really the aim of that session.Since we are more focussion of Ubuntu Parties in the sense of an evernt that happen to "celebrate" a new release
[17:28] <huats> We can discuss that later on the -chat channel
[17:29] <huats> Enlarge the targetted audiences
[17:29] <huats> We try to interest many kind of audiences.
[17:29] <huats> People without any backgrounds can come and enjoy our introductions sessions, or our first time hands-on workshops.
[17:30] <huats> We are also doing some improvements tutorials for advanced users. Bugs Jams also...
[17:30] <huats> And of course we are doing a install party huge event party during the whole event. People who are here to help for the install party wears badges explaining in which part of Ubuntu they have the best chance to help you (ubuntu ? kubuntu ? xubuntu ? network ?...).
[17:31] <huats> It is a great help for the people who are attending you session
[17:31] <huats> since they can easily spot the people who might help them
[17:32] <huats> But a great event won't be a success
[17:32] <huats> if there is no pblic
[17:32] <huats> and to have some
[17:32] <huats> you need to do some marketting !
[17:33] <huats> I said previously that the conference planning have to be done1 month before the event
[17:33] <huats> You might ask yourself (or myself), "why one month ?"
[17:33] <huats> Because it is the time where we start the biggest part our marketing strategy :)
[17:34] <huats> I say the biggest part since we have started to briefly announce it to some medias : linux or computer oriented, and "small" media corporations.
[17:35] <huats> This announcement have been done on the time frame event - 8/7 weeks, in a press communicate that we have validate during one of our IRL meeting (it have to be written before).
[17:36] <huats> 5 weeks before the event (and up to the event),  we start to annouce the event on personnal blogs.
[17:36] <huats> 4 weeks before the event (and up to the event), we contact again the media that were already contacted before (weeks 8 and 7 before the event).
[17:36] <mcsean> QUESTION: how do you communicate with media?
[17:37] <huats> 1 week before the event we contact all mass media to announce the event. And the week of the event every national medias.
[17:37] <huats> Of course it is needed to get some contacts with them before that dead line in order to know who to contact...
[17:37] <huats> So to answer the QUESTION
[17:37] <huats> we communicate with them using our connections
[17:37] <huats> :)
[17:37] <olive> !
[17:37] <huats> contacting them directly
[17:37] <huats> olive: he is the one who is doing that
[17:38] <huats> he can eplain that
[17:38] <olive> I don't speak english
[17:38] <huats> ok so I will
[17:38] <olive> I notice you an answer
[17:39] <huats> we have a press communicate that we send to the targetted medias
[17:39] <olive> by mail
[17:39] <huats> and thereis a press contact at the bottom of it
[17:39] <huats> and then they contact us :)
[17:39] <olive> (I am this contact)
[17:40] <huats> It is important to notice that for many years
[17:40] <huats> the same press contact have been choosen
[17:40] <huats> so that there is a relation that start to be established
[17:41] <huats> Also we do not hesitate to do flyers if there is an event where there is a potential audience that might be interested in our party.
[17:41] <huats> We did 3000 because we were attending Solution Linux, a business and private event that took place in Paris last months.
[17:41] <olive> it's not easy everyday !
[17:41] <huats> Oh and one final word : you do need to publish every media you have contacted to tell them the result of your event.
[17:41] <huats> It is a great asset for the next time you'll contact them to announce an event. In the same idea, you need to publish on various blog/website pictures/summary of the event.
[17:42] <huats> Logistics
[17:42] <huats> You plan to sell some stuffs to earn some money for your team ?
[17:42] <huats> Great we do so. But you must dedicate a pair of people for handling that. Looking for the best rates, harassement of the good producer is really time consuming...
[17:42] <huats> We have someone who is taking care of ordering the CDs, the Tshirts and of the goodies that we have...
[17:43] <mcsean> QUESTION: How much would you have to spend up-front and how much would you get back?
[17:44] <huats> can you explain a little more your question ?
[17:44] <huats> there is no rulefor that
[17:44] <mcsean> What are the upfront costs for purchasing the items you mentioned for a release party: CDs, TShirts, Etc
[17:45] <huats> it depends a lot in the scale you are doing
[17:45] <huats> by instance we are doing more than 3000 CD for each release
[17:45] <olive> 3500 this time
[17:46] <huats> (I know I said more than  :)
[17:46] <huats> there is no golden rule for the cost by item
[17:46] <olive> (Oh yes, you'r right)
[17:46] <huats> since each item have a different price
[17:47] <huats> mcsean: canonical provides 300 CD for each approved loco for each release
[17:47] <huats> but we need ay much more than that
[17:47] <huats> Since there is not more question I am continuing
[17:48] <huats> The event !
[17:48] <huats> Just 2 words : smile and enjoy... Smile because it will be a hard day. Enjoy once it is done, and smile because it has been a success..
[17:48] <mcsean> So, for a group that's just getting started, forming a loco and then planning a release party would be a good plan.
[17:48] <huats> mcsean: indeed
[17:49] <huats> The step would be the debrieffing
[17:49] <huats> Each organizer have the right to express his feelings. And it helps to improve for the next time...
[17:49] <huats> It is what is done during the IRL meeting after the event
[17:49] <huats> it helps us to set some areas of improvments
[17:50] <huats> Any questions ?
[17:50] <huats> jcastro: if not it is done
[17:50] <didrocks> just note : IRL meeting are very important because you can express more directly than IRC one. Also, it's a good excuse to take a beer too :)
[17:50] <huats> :)
[17:51] <mcsean> QUESTION: this process, your experience seems quite efficient. how long has it taken to get to this point?
[17:51] <huats> didrocks: if you had attended it you have noticed that I stressed IRL meetings
[17:51] <huats> :)
[17:51] <olive> beers and "betises de cambrai"
[17:51] <didrocks> olive: just once ;)
[17:52] <huats> QUESTION: this process, your experience seems quite efficient. how long has it taken to get to this point?
[17:52] <huats> We are doing our parties to the same place since feisty...
[17:52] <huats> and there was some small one befre :)
[17:52] <huats> so it is quite a long process :)
[17:52] <olive> 100 vs 1200
[17:53] <huats> it is far from being perfect
[17:53] <huats> but it gets better and better
[17:53] <olive> (100 = dapper and edgy)
[17:54] <huats> So I think it is it
[17:54] <olive> QUESTION: can you give us somes pictures ?
[17:54] <huats> What can I say more ? That everyone is welcome to come to the next Ubuntu Party that we have in Paris 16-17 May :) If someone is around please ping/email me !
[17:54] <huats> QUESTION: crisis points/ serious strains on event day? what has gone wrong or really taught you something to improve?
[17:54] <mcsean> QUESTION: crisis points/ serious strains on event day? what has gone wrong or really taught you something to improve?
[17:54] <huats> :)
[17:55] <olive> We can say, where is Mark ?
[17:55] <huats> there are always some crisis
[17:55] <huats> :)
[17:55] <olive> no. no crisis
[17:55] <huats> we had a big stress because "we lost" 400 Tshirts
[17:55] <huats> :)
[17:55] <huats> but no real crisis
[17:56] <huats> some small event that we have always been able to manage
[17:56] <olive> everything is perfect
[17:56] <didrocks> mcsean: those parties can emphasize your "serial killer" side between organizers. Then, just take a brief, and show must go on :)
[17:57] <huats> Thanks everyone
[17:57] <huats> jcastro: the channel is yours
[17:57] <huats> :)
[17:57] <didrocks> congrats huats \o/
[17:57] <indSpike> thanks huats
[17:58] <huats> well in fact kirkland the channel is YOURS :)
[17:58] <olive> thanks huats
[17:58] <kirkland> howdy everyone!
[17:58] <quesh> \o/
[17:58] <kirkland> i'll wait a couple of minutes to start, however, I have a live demo!
[17:58] <migue_> hi all
[17:58] <kirkland> so fire up your ssh clients
[17:58] <huats> thanks mcsean, olive, didrocks, quesh and everyone who participated
[17:58] <kirkland> ssh -C<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:58] <kirkland> the password is "guest"
[17:59] <didrocks> kirkland: excellent :)
[17:59] <huats> kirkland: great !
[18:00] <mcsean> QUESTION: Should there be some sort of non-required subscription when organizing a (small) Release-party to have an idea on how many people will show up at least and if yes, is there an easy way to keep track of subscribed people?
[18:00] <JFo> nice screensaver kirkland
[18:00] <Ireyon> cool^^
[18:00] <jcastro> kirkland: whenever you're ready!
[18:00] <kirkland> Okay, everyone ... let's get started
[18:01] <kirkland> so i will be demonstrating Encrypted Home Directories in Ubuntu Jaunty
[18:01] <kirkland> it will be helpful if you're listening here in IRC, and also observing via a shared screen session to a server I'm hosting in Amazon's EC2
[18:02] <kirkland> to connect to that, please: ssh -C<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:02] <kirkland> the password is "guest"
[18:02] <kirkland> (the screen saver you see running is a fun little program in Universe called "cmatrix")
[18:02] <kirkland> i'm going to kill that now :-)
[18:02] <kirkland> alrighty!
[18:02] <kirkland> so i did one of these sessions 6 months ago after the Intrepid release, and introduced Encrypted Private Directories
[18:02] <kirkland> which was new for Intrepid
[18:03] <kirkland> basically, I created a very simple mechanism by which you could setup a single folder in your home directory, statically called "Private"
[18:03] <kirkland> for encryption
[18:03] <kirkland> when you'd login, this folder would be "mounted"
[18:03] <kirkland> and you could read/write data to/from that folder like any other non-encrypted folder
[18:03] <kirkland> but when you logged out, the contents of that folder was locked away in encryption
[18:04] <kirkland> in the Intrepid timeframe, it was possible, though non-trivial, to move some key information into ~/Private
[18:04] <kirkland> and symlink them back to their traditional locations
[18:04] <kirkland> so, i moved stuff like .gnupg, .ssh, .firefox, .evolution, .xchat, and so on
[18:04] <kirkland> into my ~/Private
[18:04] <kirkland> and put symlinks where they "belonged"
[18:05] <kirkland> this worked pretty well
[18:05] <kirkland> i certainly so no performance degradation
[18:05] <kirkland> and i could rest assured that *some* of my personal data was locked away in encryption
[18:05] <kirkland> however, i had to be very conscious about moving importation information into ~/Private
[18:06] <kirkland> so i spent about 8 hours on a plane flying to Paris, and hacked Encrypted Home Directories :-)
[18:06] <kirkland> basically, making $HOME, rather than $HOME/Private to mount point for your "private" location
[18:06] <kirkland> and, believe it or not, I think it works pretty well ....
[18:06] <kirkland> there might be a few road bumps and a few usability issues that we're improving for Karmic
[18:07] <kirkland> but I'm trusting all of my $HOME data to it
[18:07] <kirkland> I like this for a few reasons ...
[18:07] <kirkland> now, there's certainly a place for full disk (LVM) encryption
[18:07] <kirkland> but there are a few drawbacks
[18:08] <kirkland> namely, 1) a password is required just to "boot" your system, which kinda negates some of the hard work we've done to get Jaunty's boot performance improvements
[18:08] <kirkland> 2) the whole disk is encrypted, even stuff that doesn't need to be encrypted, like /lib and /usr/bin, and so on
[18:08] <kirkland> 3) it's impossible to incrementally sync (backup) the actual encrypted data
[18:09] <kirkland> these are 3 things that we can actually solve with encrypted home directories using eCryptfs in Ubuntu Jaunty
[18:09] <kirkland> okay so ....
[18:09] <kirkland> there are basically 3 ways to setup an encrypted home directory ...
[18:09] <kirkland> 1) from the alternate/server installer
[18:09] <kirkland> if you use this, you are considered an "advanced" user, and you will get a prompt, asking you if you want to encrypt your home directory\
[18:09] <kirkland> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-mej0A6dVeU/SahvvshQ09I/AAAAAAAAAN0/Q3HM5sSKbb4/s1600-h/server.png
[18:10] <kirkland> that's a screen shot of that question
[18:10] <kirkland> 2) if you're using the desktop installer, you need to give a special pre-seed value
[18:10] <kirkland> basically, in the bootloader of the liveCD, you hit F6, and add an option to the kernel boot line
[18:10] <kirkland> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-mej0A6dVeU/Sahw4ryafQI/AAAAAAAAAOE/q2e-nmYWi_A/s1600-h/installer.png
[18:10] <kirkland> Add "user-setup/encrypt-home=true" just before the "--".
[18:11] <kirkland> if you do this, you will reveal an additional radio button on the user creation page of the graphical installer
[18:11] <kirkland> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-mej0A6dVeU/Sahv4yrc2QI/AAAAAAAAAN8/s2J-fJ7Ne7w/s1600-h/desktop.png
[18:11] <kirkland> for more information about this, please see: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/02/jaunty-encrypted-home-directories.html
[18:11] <kirkland> now, i'm sure everyone here has already installed jaunty!
[18:12] <kirkland> so 3) adding a user to an installed system
[18:12] <kirkland> now for the demo ...
[18:12] <kirkland> okay, looking over at our ssh session, i'm going to create a new user, and specify that their home is to be encrypted
[18:12] <kirkland> actually, first, i'm going to install ecryptfs
[18:12] <kirkland> ecryptfs-utils is now installed
[18:13] <kirkland> sudo adduser --encrypt-home foo1
[18:13] <kirkland> YOU SHOULD RECORD THIS MOUNT PASSPHRASE AND STORE IN A SAFE LOCATION:
[18:13] <kirkland> 21a723343815414dcd74842704d2eb18
[18:13] <kirkland> THIS WILL BE REQUIRED IF YOU NEED TO RECOVER YOUR DATA AT A LATER TIME.
[18:13] <kirkland> this is a very important point ....
[18:13] <kirkland> any time you're using Ubuntu's Encrypted Private or Encrypted Home feature, it is absolutely critical that you write down the rrandomly generated passphrase
[18:14] <kirkland> if you need to restore your data from backups later, you *must* have this password
[18:14] <kirkland> this is a rather strong, 128bit random string
[18:14] <kirkland> very difficult to guess!
[18:14] <kirkland> okay, now i'm going to set a passphrase for foo1
[18:14] <kirkland> this is the system login passphrase
[18:15] <kirkland> okay, foo1 is created
[18:15] <kirkland> let's nose around a little ...
[18:15] <kirkland> note that as user "ubuntu" i can't see into their homedir
[18:15] <kirkland> this is because dr-x------  3 foo1   foo1   4096 2009-04-29 17:13 foo1/
[18:15] <kirkland> this home dir is 500 perm'd by default
[18:15] <kirkland> such that even foo1 can't write into it
[18:16] <kirkland> that's to protect them from inadvertently writing data into their unencrypted mountpoint
[18:16] <kirkland> okay, so now I can sudo and look in foo1's home dir
[18:16] <kirkland> i see a couple of symlinks, and a README.txt
[18:17] <kirkland> i'm going to now, as root, look through foo1's homedir
[18:17] <kirkland> as you can see from the README, it's explaining that this dir is not mounted
[18:17] <kirkland> the actual encrypted data actually lives in .Private
[18:18] <kirkland> and as you can see here, the filenames themselves are obfuscated
[18:18] <kirkland> if i try to look at the contents of one of these files, we should only see encrypted garbage
[18:18] <kirkland> bingo
[18:18] <kirkland> okay, now, let's login as foo1
[18:18] <kirkland> alright, i'm now logged in as foo1
[18:19] <kirkland> (at this point, you can pretend you're in a gnome or kde session)
[18:19] <kirkland> (the magic is the same)
[18:19] <kirkland> (your logging in through gdm/kdm would have performed the same operations, which i'll explain in detail if we have time)
[18:19] <kirkland> now, as foo1, i can see my filenames :-)
[18:19] <kirkland> and I can read my configuration files
[18:20] <kirkland> let's take a look at the mountpoint itself
[18:20] <kirkland> /home/foo1/.Private on /home/foo1 type ecryptfs (ecryptfs_sig=3c9d14d7ce3af0d0,ecryptfs_fnek_sig=55e8342f969450c1,ecryptfs_cipher=aes,ecryptfs_key_bytes=16)
[18:20] <kirkland> these are the details of the ecryptfs mount
[18:20] <kirkland> note that I can't see my encrypted .Private directory at this point
[18:20] <kirkland> let's check that out
[18:20] <kirkland> to do this, i'm going to have to unmount my homedir
[18:21] <kirkland> which is going to render it read-only
[18:21] <kirkland> in practice YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL DOING THIS
[18:21] <kirkland> ie, do it at a command prompt, when nothing else is running as your user
[18:21] <kirkland> okay, now, we're in the unencrypted mountpoint, as foo1
[18:21] <kirkland> and again, i can get to my private data
[18:22] <kirkland> for backup purposes
[18:22] <kirkland> i, for one, make nightly copies of my encrypted data, using rsync, to my co-lo server
[18:22] <kirkland> as you can see I can't write anything in this dir
[18:22] <kirkland> but if I look at the README.txt, i can get some instructions on how to re-establish my mount
[18:23] <kirkland> now i'm prompted to enter my login passphrase
[18:23] <kirkland> and $HOME is mounted again!
[18:23] <kirkland> okay, i'm going to pause for a minute and field a few questions
[18:24] <kirkland> jcastro: are you around?  would you mind serving them up?
[18:24] <jcastro> sure
 QUESTION: Is it possible to do this with remote home dirs?
[18:24] <kirkland> JFo: please clarify "remote"
[18:24] <kirkland> JFo: you mean on an NFS or Samba share?
[18:25] <JFo> yes
[18:25] <kirkland> JFo: how I wish :-)
[18:25] <JFo> heh
[18:25] <JFo> I was afraid of that
[18:25] <kirkland> tyhicks is working on this
[18:25] <kirkland> JFo: it's a long, and well understood bug in the kernel
[18:25] <kirkland> JFo: we're *really* hoping to have this fixed for Karmic
[18:25] <kirkland> JFo: that one has been a dream of mine for a long time ;-)
[18:25] <JFo> I bet
[18:25] <kirkland> jcastro: any others?
 QUESTION: law enforcement myth or reality/ anything on a hdd is recoverable?
[18:26] <jcastro> we have a few more questions so just say "next" when you want the next one
[18:26] <kirkland> rufong: interesting question, really
[18:26] <kirkland> rufong: http://citp.princeton.edu/memory/
[18:27] <kirkland> rufong: from that princeton university study, they show that RAM contents can be gather up to a few minutes after powering a system off
[18:27] <kirkland> rufong: so if law enforcement (or your attacker) can get to your ram contents, they could possibly find your keys
[18:28] <kirkland> and render any form of encryption (even LVM, Truecrypt, BitKeeper, etc) useless
[18:28] <kirkland> however, i stand behind the design of eCryptfs
[18:30] <kirkland> and in particular the design of Ubuntu's Encrypted Home
[18:30] <kirkland> and Encrypted Private
[18:30] <kirkland> i think it'll stand up to most attackers
[18:30] <kirkland> a well funded attacker is a different story
[18:30] <kirkland> ie, someone with infinite time and computing resources
[18:30] <kirkland> but the guy on the train who steals your netbook so he can off it to a pawn shop ...
[18:30] <kirkland> he might spend a few minutes looking for credit card numbers, or other personal info
[18:30] <kirkland> not seeing that, chances are very likely that he'll move on, wipe the drive
[18:30] <kirkland> jcastro: any others?
 QUESTION: which encryption algorithms are supported by ecryptfs and how can i change the one used?
[18:30] <kirkland> jcastro: actually, back to that last one ...
[18:30] <kirkland> so back to the law enforcement question ...
[18:30] <kirkland> i've made it pretty clear on my blog and in my documentation
[18:30] <kirkland> if the user has access to your "wrapped-passphrase file" (more on that in a minute)
[18:31] <kirkland> they can then attack that file with your system login passphrase
[18:31] <kirkland> and if they have your /etc/shadow, they can attack your system login passphrase that way too
[18:31] <kirkland> so IT'S IMPERATIVE to have a good system login passphrase
[18:31] <kirkland> keep that safe, and secret
[18:32] <kirkland> as for your wrapped passphrase, I'm going to show you a really cool technique to make your system more secure
[18:32] <kirkland> Fabu: eCryptfs supports all of the algortihms supported by the Linux Kernel
[18:32] <kirkland> Fabu: that said, for Ubuntu's Encrypted Private and Encrypted Home, we have hard coded that to AES
[18:32] <kirkland> this is for support reasons
[18:33] <kirkland> i needed to constrain the system a bit, to a realistic set of variables
[18:33] <kirkland> varying on the cipher was not something i wanted to do (at least initially)
[18:33] <kirkland> if you know and understand how to construct eCryptfs mount options yourself, however ...
[18:33] <kirkland>  ... you can choose a different cypher
[18:33] <Pollywog> oh I arrived late  :(
[18:34] <kirkland> /home/foo1/.Private on /home/foo1 type ecryptfs (ecryptfs_sig=3c9d14d7ce3af0d0,ecryptfs_fnek_sig=55e8342f969450c1,ecryptfs_cipher=aes,ecryptfs_key_bytes=16)
[18:34] <kirkland> ecryptfs_cipher=aes
[18:34] <kirkland> that's one of the options eCryptfs accepts
[18:34] <kirkland> you could add your own custom /etc/fstab entries and such
[18:35] <kirkland> however, you will be in a configuration that I won't be able to support you as Ubuntu's eCryptfs maintainer
[18:35] <kirkland> good luck ;-)
[18:35] <kirkland> jcastro: any others?
 QUESTION: Mac OS X dumps everything in one enormous .dmg encrypted.  Is Jaunty storing each file separately encrypted?
 The one big image is scary because if it gets corrupted, all the data inside is toast
[18:35] <kirkland> shadowland: yes!  that is the fundamental design of eCryptfs
[18:35] <kirkland> shadowland: and I *love* that aspect
[18:36] <kirkland> shadowland: quick annecdote ...
[18:36] <kirkland> shadowland: I used to tar and gpg my whole homedir on a monthly basis, and burn that 4GB file to a DVD
[18:36] <kirkland> shadowland: one time i actually wanted to restore it
[18:37] <kirkland> shadowland: well, dvd media being what it is (crap), there was some (perhaps tiny) bit of that gpg file that was corrupted
[18:37] <kirkland> thus, that backup wasn't worth anything!
[18:37] <Pollywog> I have a question that might have already been asked... how do I login to my system from a laptop (ssh) if I am not logged in at the remote system.  Is there a better way than that of putting my ssh keys in /etc/.ssh/  ?  If this has already been answered, I will check the conference logs later
[18:37] <kirkland> same goes for a single file in Mac OS X
[18:37] <kirkland> Pollywog: please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and wait your turn
[18:37] <Pollywog> k
[18:37] <kirkland> shadowland: there's one other tremendous advantage
[18:37] <kirkland> shadowland: and that's back to the incremental backups
[18:38] <kirkland> shadowland: i can do something like rsync $HOME/.Private/  root@remote:/backup/
[18:38] <kirkland> and sync only the files that changed
[18:38] <kirkland> which is far more reasonable than trying to rsync a multi-GB file
[18:39] <kirkland> so on to the backups questions ...
[18:39] <kirkland> there are a few improvements we're trying to make in this area in the Karmic timeframe
[18:39] <kirkland> however, my backup script for now looks something like this:
[18:39] <kirkland> umount.ecryptfs_private && cd && mount.ecryptfs_private
[18:39] <kirkland> that one liner unmounts, cd's to my $HOME, and mounts, very quickly
[18:40] <kirkland> the net is that my script is now in the unmounted homedir
[18:40] <kirkland> at this point, I can rsync -aP .Private/ <offsite>
[18:40] <kirkland> jcastro: next?
 QUESTION: How is the backup affected if a user has open files when the backup runs?  Are the backed up files usable if restored later?
[18:41] <kirkland> jcastro: maybe, maybe not
[18:41] <kirkland> jcastro: all depends on how your underlying filesystem works, what's sync'd, etc.
[18:42] <kirkland> shadowland: ideally, you'd run your backups when other things aren't running
[18:42] <kirkland> shadowland: i expect we might have a little more work to do in this arena
[18:42] <kirkland> tyhicks is our kernel expert from IBM ;-)
 QUESTION: I'm currently using Truecrypt for encrypting a 1TB hdd, should i switch to ecryptfs? If yes why (most important would be performance issues)?
[18:42] <kirkland> Fabu: well, i can't be objective on this one :-)
[18:43] <kirkland> i prefer eCryptfs, but I'm the maintainer :-)
[18:43] <kirkland> if you're happy with Trucrypt, it does everything you want, I don't suppose there's a compelling reason to change
[18:43] <kirkland> however, the last time i looked at truecrypt, there were some serious licensing concerns
[18:43] <kirkland> that was keeping it from making it into fedora and ubuntu
[18:44] <kirkland> (ecryptfs is gplv2)
 QUESTION: can you show us how you'd encrypt a specific dir or mount (not just a home dir)?
[18:44] <kirkland> mcsean: good question
[18:44] <kirkland> mcsean: let's go back over to our demo environment
[18:44] <kirkland> i'm going to create a new user, foo2
[18:44] <kirkland> who doesn't have an encrypted home dir
[18:44] <kirkland> and show you how foo2 would create an encrypted private
[18:45] <kirkland> this is mostly what we did in Intrepid, but it's still a useful feature in Jaunty
[18:45] <kirkland> especially if you use Gnome's auto-login feature
[18:45] <kirkland> but you want to protect some subset of your home directory
[18:45] <kirkland> (note that encrypted-home and auto-login are TOTALLY incompatible for hopefully obvious reasons!)
[18:46] <kirkland> okay foo2 created, no encrypted home
[18:46] <kirkland> loggin in as foo2
[18:46] <kirkland> no encrypted home mount
[18:46] <kirkland> okay, running ecryptfs-setup-private to create my Private dir
[18:46] <kirkland> entering my login passphrase
[18:46] <kirkland> now, i have a choice ...
[18:47] <kirkland> i can choose to select my mount passphrase
[18:47] <kirkland> or randomly generate it
[18:47] <kirkland> i *always* randomly generate it
[18:47] <kirkland> as this is more secure
[18:47] <kirkland> but i *must* remember to write it down
[18:47] <kirkland> cool, it's setup now
[18:47] <kirkland> okay, so i need to logout and log back in for it to take effect
[18:48] <kirkland> and now, i can see Private mounted
[18:48] <kirkland> \o/
[18:48] <kirkland> let's put some data in there
[18:48] <kirkland> cooll, so i have data in there now
[18:48] <kirkland> let's unmount it and see
[18:48] <kirkland> not mounted, good
[18:48] <kirkland> let's check the encrypted data
[18:49] <kirkland> encrypted filenames, encrypted file contents
[18:49] <kirkland> sweet
[18:50] <kirkland> mcsean: i'll show you one more thing ...
[18:50] <kirkland> as an admin, i can do lots of other things with ecryptfs
[18:50] <kirkland> arbitrary mountpoints and such
[18:50] <kirkland> again, back to our screen session, let's see this
[18:51] <kirkland> sudo mount -t ecryptfs /tmp/encrypted/ /tmp/decrypted/
[18:51] <kirkland> i should get a list of interactive questions
[18:51] <kirkland> first, a passphrase for this mount
[18:51] <kirkland> next, the cipher i want
[18:51] <kirkland> (didn't someone ask about what ciphers are supported?)
[18:52] <kirkland> Select cipher:
[18:52] <kirkland>  1) aes: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
[18:52] <kirkland>  2) blowfish: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
[18:52] <kirkland>  3) des3_ede: blocksize = 8; min keysize = 24; max keysize = 24 (not loaded)
[18:52] <kirkland>  4) twofish: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
[18:52] <kirkland>  5) cast6: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
[18:52] <Fabu> yes me thanks :)
[18:52] <kirkland>  6) cast5: blocksize = 8; min keysize = 5; max keysize = 16 (not loaded)
[18:52] <kirkland> /tmp/encrypted on /tmp/decrypted type ecryptfs (rw,ecryptfs_sig=c7fed37c0a341e19,ecryptfs_cipher=blowfish,ecryptfs_key_bytes=16,ecryptfs_fnek_sig=c7fed37c0a341e19,ecryptfs_unlink_sigs)
[18:52] <kirkland> voila
[18:52] <kirkland> arbitrary ecryptfs mount
[18:52] <kirkland> you'd want to save this off, or put it into /etc/fstab if you want to use it more
[18:53] <kirkland> okay, now I want to get to one more important point
[18:53] <kirkland> this is related to: <stesind> QUESTION: could you pls show how to store the passphrase on a usb stick?
[18:53] <kirkland> so i mentioned that you could make it much harder on your attacker, if they didn't have your system password and your wrapped-passphrase
[18:53] <kirkland> here's a bit about what's going on ...
[18:53] <kirkland> when you login via PAM
[18:54] <kirkland> you give a system password, like 'abc123'
[18:54] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[18:54] <kirkland> this is used to "unwrap" or decrypt your wrapped-passphrase
[18:54] <kirkland> this file is stored in $HOME/.ecryptfs/wrapped-passphrase
[18:54] <kirkland> which is *actually* in /var/lib/ecryptfs/$USER/wrapped-passphrase
[18:54] <kirkland> let's go take a look in our demo window
[18:55] <kirkland> first, let's unwrap it and see ...
[18:55] <kirkland> so our "simple" abc123 passphrase decrypts our random, hard mount passphrase 21a723343815414dcd74842704d2eb18
[18:56] <kirkland> so what i've done on my system is I've litterally "moved" my wrapped-passphrase file to usb storage
[18:57] <kirkland> (see the window for the demo)
[18:57] <Pollywog> QUESTION: is there a way to generate a new passphrase in case I failed to record it when I installed Ubuntu?
[18:57] <Pollywog> oops sorry
[18:58] <kirkland> so i now have a pretend usb stick in /tmp
[18:58] <kirkland> (put it on a real one, and add it to your /etc/fstab)
[18:58] <stesind> :)
[18:58] <kirkland> i moved my wrapped-passphrase file to something perhaps less obvious, ".trash"
[18:58] <kirkland> and put a symlink in place
[18:59] <kirkland> now, i have to have that in place to login to the system
[18:59] <kirkland> so i logged in successfully
[18:59] <kirkland> now, i'm going to remove it
[18:59] <kirkland> (pretend, remove usb key)
[19:00] <kirkland> okay, i did that out of order
[19:00] <kirkland> but there we go ...
[19:00] <kirkland> home dir data not available
[19:00] <kirkland> okay, i'm done!
[19:00] <jcastro> whew!
[19:00] <kirkland> ask more questions in -chat, i'll try to answer
[19:00] <jcastro> ok, thanks dustin!
[19:00] <jcastro> Up next we have didrocks with some GNOME Desktop team goodness.
[19:00] <didrocks> kirkland: I can give you five extra minutes if you need them :)
[19:01] <didrocks> give*
[19:01] <jcastro> didrocks: why don't we give people 5 minutes to take a break?
[19:01] <didrocks> jcastro: it's possible too, classroom back in 5 minutes :)
[19:01] <mmek> smoke break :)
[19:02] <didrocks> kirkland: I think it will be usefull that you copy/paste the shell session too, joining it to the session log
[19:02] <JFo> thanks much kirkland
[19:03]  * ^arky^ claps
[19:05] <jcastro> didrocks: ok, fire away!
[19:05] <didrocks> DING DONG, it's time to start. Through away your cigarettes and come on! :)
[19:05] <jcastro> discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please!
[19:05] <didrocks> The presentation will be about what ubuntu desktop team is, what we are doing, how we organize…
[19:05] <didrocks> This one is largely inspired by seb128's lesson during last Developers'week (THANKS seb ;)).
[19:06] <didrocks> Then, we will do a question-answer session. Hope you will be interested in it! As usual, you can ask your question at #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[19:06] <didrocks> is there a volonteer to handle them?
[19:06] <didrocks> ok, will see then :D
[19:07] <didrocks> The Ubuntu Desktop Team is the team working on most of the Ubuntu GNOME desktop applications.
[19:07] <didrocks> The team is a mix of people working full time for canonical and contributors.
[19:07] <didrocks> There is many ways to contact and find us, even if we try to get hidden :)
[19:07] <didrocks> - #ubuntu-desktop for IRC on freenode
[19:07] <didrocks> -<EMAIL_ADDRESS>mailing list (low traffic)
[19:07] <didrocks> - desktop-bugs and ubuntu-desktop launchpad teams
[19:08] <YoBoY> Hi
[19:08] <didrocks> The first team is subscribed to every bug reported against a desktop related soft.
[19:08] <didrocks> so, if you subscribed, you will get spammed :)
[19:08] <didrocks> think to set up a filter for those mails
[19:08] <didrocks> - The team has weekly IRC meeting on #ubuntu-desktop, they are at 16:00UTC on Tuesday, but regarding the timeframe, most of people there are Canonical guys ;)
[19:09] <didrocks> So, what are we doing?
[19:09] <didrocks> We are working on the desktop packages, the rough list is on https://launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs.
[19:09] <didrocks> as you can see, there is really a bunch of packages
[19:10] <didrocks> all bugs against those packages will be in our backlog
[19:10] <didrocks> We are dealing mainly with two tasks:
[19:10] <didrocks> - updating the desktop packages when new versions are available (especially GNOME ones)
[19:10] <didrocks> - trying to work on the corresponding bugs lists, triaging the bugs and work with upstream to get those resolved
[19:11] <didrocks> hopefully, we have good relations with GNOME upstream :)
[19:11] <didrocks> one member of the team is a Canonical employee, another a volonteer
[19:12] <didrocks> and we have also some people from the GNOME release team idling on our IRC channel
[19:12] <didrocks> ok, going back to packages
[19:12] <didrocks> Most of the packages are coming from the debian pkg-gnome team.
[19:13] <didrocks> We try to keep those packages in sync with Debian as much as possible and send their our changes to them.
[19:13] <didrocks> some changes, as launchpad integration, does not fit Debian. So, we keep this delta for us
[19:13] <didrocks> but remember that, as for every team, the delta between Debian as us has to be as little as possible :)
[19:14] <didrocks> But contrary to Debian, we do package unstable version update earlier than them and carry some ubuntu specific changes though.
[19:14] <didrocks> For instance, Debian generally doesn't upload unstable GNOME version.
[19:15] <didrocks> we do, because we need to update GNOME very quickly when getting the stable version
[19:15] <didrocks> The new GNOME release is generally out 3 days from ubuntu beta.
[19:15] <didrocks> Consequently, we have only very few time to update the bunch of GNOME packages.
[19:16] <didrocks> That's why we prefer to detect as soon as possible regression, changes in packaging we have to do, so that the new GNOME version still compile in Ubuntu
[19:16] <didrocks> Also, providing unstable GNOME version in alpha release of Ubuntu is better for all Ubuntu QA
[19:16] <didrocks> And as most of people us the Ubuntu vanilla version, everyone is possibly a GNOME tester :)
[19:17] <didrocks> To sum up, we mostly updates packages when GNOME roll new tarballs and we backport upstream fixes from svn.
[19:17] <didrocks> Just to notice, the packaging is mostly done using cdbs. (this is more intended for developpers) ;)
[19:18] <didrocks> Organization:
[19:18] <didrocks> To organize those updates, we current have somebody looking at the new upstream tarballs and noticing what upgrade we need to do in ubuntu.
[19:18] <didrocks> Tasks are usually splitted on IRC (ie, upgrade are assigned to people there) and people are free to claim tarballs they want to work on.
[19:20] <didrocks> Contributors, that is to say, people who don't have upload rights, use bugs on launchpad to get their work reviewed (usually it's easy to get review since the team is quite active and you often find people to help on IRC)
[19:20] <didrocks> Some issue with the current workflow is that "somebody" is mostly seb128 and this is a huge task!
[19:20] <didrocks> Even if he is some kind of superman, he can't be live 24h a days (what he really can't? O_o)
 QUESTION: how many people are on the team?
[19:21] <didrocks> Riddell: less than Kubuntu ;)
[19:21] <didrocks> So, let's say we have 7-8 people doing active work
[19:21] <didrocks> (some of them being full time canonical employees)
[19:21] <didrocks> double the number if you count people helping on bug triage, etc.
[19:22] <didrocks> Riddell: we would love to have some kind of "ninja" team as it is the case for Kubuntu
[19:23] <didrocks> Riddell: I will talk about futur and Kubuntu desktop team/ubuntu desktop team cooperation later :)
[19:23] <didrocks> QUESTION: what is the view of gnome upstream on ubuntu and linux in general comparing to other distros and platform (freebsd, opensolaris, etc.) ?
[19:24] <didrocks> well, don't know really well what to answer to that question
[19:24] <didrocks> regarding GNOME ML, most of people seems to use linux
[19:24] <didrocks> but GNOME wants to be agnostic regarding plateform, and I see it working very well on opensolaris
[19:25] <didrocks> reading planet GNOME, you can see that there are a bunch of opensolaris addict there :)
[19:25] <didrocks> I think that ubuntu is quite liked there. There seems to be fedora, opensuse and ubuntu users.
 QUESTION: does the team do any coding?
[19:25] <didrocks> mostly bug fixes
[19:26] <didrocks> but there are some development by mvo to update manager
[19:26] <didrocks> and add/remove softwares
[19:26] <didrocks> bug fixes are always pushed upstream, and some people on the team have commit right in GNOME svn
[19:27] <didrocks> oooopsss, git (from just a few days) ;)
 QUESTION: what's the reaction been to the DX team's notification changes?
[19:27] <didrocks> well… quite divided
[19:28] <didrocks> some part of the team were very disappointed by this direction taken…
[19:28] <didrocks> some others were convinced it was the right way to go
[19:28] <didrocks> it was not uninamous if this is what you want to know
[19:29] <didrocks> (the core critize is about the "non action button" or "default action")
[19:29] <didrocks> hopefully, for people who don't like it, there is a way to go back
[19:29] <didrocks> so, the old notification system is still present
[19:30] <didrocks> to make better the cooperation with the DX team, some of them are idling on the channel too now
 QUESTION: is the change to git causing problems for people who aren't experts in revision control?  e.g. translators
[19:30] <didrocks> yes, a lot of spam in the GNOME devel ML :)
[19:31] <didrocks> that's normal, I think, when you change your VCS and some people aren't used to distributed VCS
[19:31] <didrocks> the migration was well prepared
[19:31] <didrocks> and I think it was as slick as possible. Good work from people release team :)
 The DX team is using git?
[19:32] <didrocks> cody-somerville: no, it's upstream GNOME who migrated
 QUESTION: what do you think is gnome killer application and what application does it miss the most?
[19:33] <didrocks> awkorama: I tested recently KDE 4 and well… maybe there are some good ideas to take from it
[19:33] <didrocks> especially all those widgets, moving them from taskbar to desktop
[19:33] <didrocks> well, plasmoïd seems to be a very good concept
[19:33] <didrocks> the GNOME killer app for me is gnome-shell :)
[19:34] <didrocks> it's quite still experimental and will be finished for GNOME 3.0
[19:35] <didrocks> but rethinking the desktop user experience is the way to go, and removing the VFS view to organize by activities is a very good idea
[19:35] <didrocks> (bonus point for KDE in this area)
 QUESTION: Oo! Gnome-shell! Will we get to play with the beta of that in Karmic (2.28)?
[19:35] <didrocks> gregknicholson: I really don't think so :)
[19:36] <didrocks> this is _really_ really experimental :)
[19:36] <didrocks> and there are some raised issue
[19:36] <didrocks> for instance, gnome-shell needs a 3D card hw
[19:36] <didrocks> (it uses clutter)
[19:36] <didrocks> and is incompatible with compiz
[19:36] <didrocks> if I have the time, I will drop a package in my ppa
[19:37] <didrocks> well, no more question, just going on
[19:37] <didrocks> I was talking about the centralized dispatch of work
[19:37] <didrocks> So, the idea will be to do some kind of seb128-bot :)
[19:37] <didrocks> More seriously, this is a domain we have to improve.
[19:38] <didrocks> Basically, we want a website to take some "lock" for updating packages, noticing general contributor to this package, unlocking after a period of time…
[19:38] <didrocks> I will try to put some work there to integrate it with bzr and debcheckout so that we don't have added administrative paper work and organize better :)
[19:38] <didrocks> Some ideas are a website + an IRC bot, and enventually some tools to integrate with developper's tools
[19:39] <didrocks> We are also integrating more and more bzr for package. Have a look there for a step by step process: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bzr.
[19:39] <didrocks> A lot of packages are there: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/
[19:39] <didrocks> Using a VCS for packaging enables us to do a better tracking, for cherrypicking changes, making SRU, and so on…
[19:40] <didrocks> This is an on-going process and some workflows as yet to be decided (for instance, on merges)
[19:40] <didrocks> On a technical side upgrades are usually standard version updates, some of them are very easy, so good low hanging fruits for new volonteers!
[19:40] <didrocks> Some are tricker with (soname changes, change to build system, new binaries added, waiting for new dependencies on libgda3 (takes that huats! :p)
[19:41] <didrocks> I gave a talk on "how to update a package" sumurizing the main steps to check.
[19:41] <didrocks> You can find it at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs/2009-04-16 and I won't go into any further details :)
[19:41] <didrocks> We also discuss desktop changes, new components to install by default or not, configuration changes, etc.
[19:42] <didrocks> I think that's enough for presenting the team, we are friendly and it's surprisingly quite a small team for so many packages.
[19:42] <didrocks> So, don't be shy and come ;)
[19:42] <didrocks> Also, do not hesitate to have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam. There are a collection of good references there.
[19:42] <didrocks> Now, rooms for questions , just fire up! :)
 QUESTION : What is gnome shell ? :)
[19:43] <didrocks> oh sorry ;)
[19:43] <didrocks> gnome shell is the new layout and engine that will be settled in GNOME 3
[19:43] <didrocks> the idea is to rethink the main desktop layout
[19:44] <didrocks> basically, removing the two boards
[19:44] <didrocks> and presenting some kind of "activities", that enables you to launch applications and tasks
[19:44] <didrocks> let me look for screenshots
[19:44] <didrocks> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Screenshots
[19:45] <didrocks> very different from current desktop, isn't? :)
 QUESTION: do you personally use any app that replaces gnome default (and why) ?
[19:46] <didrocks> awkorama: no, as I'm upgrading and testing a lot of packages I made (yes, I want to TEST your packages before uploading), I even have the default desktop background :)
[19:46] <didrocks> I tried gnome-do
[19:46] <didrocks> wasn't really convinced and too used to drop a gnome-terminal with alt-f2 to care about it :)
 Follow-up QUESTION …'cos the Gnome roadmap says Gnome-shell beta will land in time for 2.28: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven/ —in your view is that too optimistic?
[19:47] <didrocks> hum, to be honest, looking at upstream discussion about GNOME 3, nobody is certain that GNOME 2.30 = GNOME 3.0
[19:48] <didrocks> it will be maybe GNOME 2.32
[19:48] <didrocks> (for the record, we currently have GNOME 2.26)
[19:48] <didrocks> so, less than one year to make GNOME 3 a reality seems very short
[19:49] <didrocks> ok, changing from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 is not a complete rewriting contrary to KDE
[19:49] <didrocks> it will certainly be easier
[19:49] <didrocks> but still, if you drop the boards to replace by gnome-shell
[19:49] <didrocks> you have to rewrite all applets systems
[19:50] <didrocks> will see, if we have the time to propose a package, we will do :)
[19:50] <didrocks> for instance, there is a package for gdm 2.26 in universe
[19:50] <didrocks> (the current used gdm is 2.20, as in every distribution)
[19:51] <didrocks> because gdm 2.22 was a complete rewrite and some features are still missing…
[19:51] <didrocks> well, futur
[19:51] <didrocks> I really hope to make ubuntu desktop team and kubuntu desktop team closer
[19:51] <didrocks> I already tried to make some updates in the ninja team
[19:51] <didrocks> it was really a great experience
[19:51] <nixternal> \o/
[19:52] <didrocks> hey nixternal \o/
[19:52] <sebsebseb> apparantly  Gnome in 9.04 lacks certain features, such as for example new GDM screen
[19:52] <didrocks> people are rellly friendly there too
[19:52] <didrocks> sebsebseb: you can see what I told about GDM just before
[19:52] <sebsebseb> didrocks: yeah in the log?
[19:52] <didrocks> so, I think that at UDS, I will get closer to kde team, so that we can share our process
[19:53] <didrocks> and take the best of our two worlds :)
[19:53] <didrocks> sebsebseb: [20:51] <didrocks> because gdm 2.22 was a complete rewrite and some features are still missing…
 Question: The Shutdown / Quit option in System menu disappears when you have Gdm auto login enabled. This creates problems to some user like the blind screen reader users. Do you often do usability testing with blind users in mind.
[19:54] <didrocks> ^arky^: normally, the QA team does some usability tests
[19:54] <didrocks> didn't know about that
[19:54] <didrocks> a workaround is to remove the FUSA applet
[19:55] <didrocks> (the applet with your name, where you can Shutdown / Quit)
[19:55] <didrocks> the old menu items will magically appears again :)
[19:55] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[19:55] <didrocks> ^arky^: I think it's time to open a bug :D
[19:55] <didrocks> (against FUSA, it will be the best)
[19:56] <bruce89> sebsebseb: right, I'm here
[19:56] <didrocks> Riddell: the FUSA applet is an other example of coding by the team
[19:56] <didrocks> well, it seems there is no remaining questions
[19:56] <sebsebseb> didrocks: I think there might be
[19:56] <bruce89> ha
[19:57] <sebsebseb> bruce89: as I said here's your chance to ask some questions
[19:57] <didrocks> bruce89: ? :)
[19:57] <bruce89> I don't feel like trying to convince Ubuntu people to change their mind
[19:57] <sebsebseb> or not hum
[19:57] <jcastro> discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[19:57] <didrocks> I think, yes, the time is almost over, let's continue on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[19:57] <bruce89> fair enough, just as well I left Ubuntu, bye
[19:58] <didrocks> thanks to everybody who partipated to it :)
[19:58] <jcastro> ok, thanks didrocks!
[19:58]  * ^arky^ claps
[19:58] <didrocks> see you on #ubuntu-desktop ;)
[19:58] <JFo> thanks didrocks
[19:58] <JFo> great session
[19:58] <jcastro> ok, we'll take a few minutes, then it's nixternal and Riddell with Kubuntu Q+A
[19:59] <sebsebseb> didrocks: oh I got a good question, where to ask it?
[20:00] <didrocks> sebsebseb: on -chat, please :)
[20:00] <nixternal> 100 more and we will be cooler than sabdfl!!!
[20:01] <jcastro> ok, whenever you guys want to kick it off
[20:01] <Eveready> you mean... Self Appointed Benevolant Dictator for Life?
[20:01] <Eveready> chuckle
[20:01] <jcastro> Ok, remember to keep discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please, and preface your questions with QUESTION:
[20:02] <Riddell> Good evening friends
[20:02] <Riddell> me and nixternal here have been scheduled for a Kubuntu Q & A session
[20:02] <nixternal> howdy from Chicago! No cases of Swine Flu here yet!
[20:03] <Riddell> I already  had lots of good questions on monday, but now we need lots more
[20:03] <Riddell> let's introduce ourselves
[20:03] <Riddell> nixternal: who are you and what  do you do?
[20:03] <nixternal> My name is Richard Johnson, I am a wanna-be developer here in the Ubuntu world, a wanna-be KDE developer as well, and I just want to hang on the coat tails of rockstars! :)
[20:04] <nixternal> as you can see, I am a clown :)
[20:04] <nixternal> who are you Riddell, and what do you do?
[20:04] <sebsebseb> nixternal: ok well I hope you contribute to KDE3 in Ubuntu then :)  ,because only one guy is making that, and  KDE3 is so nice compared to KDE4
[20:04] <sebsebseb> nixternal: KDE3 in  Ubuntu can do with some more developers
[20:04] <ScottK> sebsebseb: Please not in this channel.
[20:05] <sebsebseb> ScottK: oh ok
[20:05] <Riddell> hi nixternal, I'm Jonathan Riddell, one of the original Kubuntu developers
[20:05] <nixternal> sebsebseb: I^Wwe will talk about that maybe now that you brought it up :)
[20:05] <nixternal> Riddell: that is cool, but if you aren't the original one, then who was?
[20:05] <sebsebseb> nixternal: ok :)
[20:05]  * nixternal don't think many people know that to be honest
[20:05] <Riddell> I work for Canonical and spend most of my days packaging, fixing bugs, testing CDs and generally making sure Kubuntu happens
[20:06] <Riddell> nixternal: amu and chris halls (haggai) were also there at the start.  amu did the Gnoppix live CD back then and haggai works for a support company that likes to help and use KDE
[20:07] <nixternal> groovy, shall we answer some questions now?
[20:07] <Riddell> let's
[20:07] <^arky^> hi I am arky , I work with braille without borders in India
[20:07] <nixternal> OK, do we have a question pasting ninja, or do I have to hit ctrl+n, highlight, ctrl+p, paste?
[20:08] <jcastro> nixternal: it's all you. :D
[20:08] <nixternal> dangit!
[20:08]  * nixternal taks off the lazy outfit
[20:08] <nixternal> [ boredandb] QUESTION: nixternal: when will we see that tape of you and jcastro in the hotel room? You know...
[20:08] <nixternal> d'oh! I thought that was a real question
[20:08] <nixternal> dang you boredandblogging!
 QUESTION: what is the difference between the networkmanager used in ubuntu and the one used in kubuntu? support for 3G modems are not the same for example. will the same functionality be implemented in kubuntu soon?
[20:08] <Riddell> never stay in a hotel room with jcastro, you'll end up with a killer cold
[20:09] <nixternal> Riddell: or a very damaging picture
[20:09] <Riddell> ScorpKing: it's the same backend
[20:09] <Riddell> but for reasons I havn't worked out, network manager is hideously complex to make a frontend for
[20:09] <Riddell> and the KDE 4 frontend  is not in great shape
[20:10] <Riddell> it mostly works for most people but often it doesn't
[20:10] <Riddell> it's the most notable problem with Kubuntu 9.04
[20:10] <Riddell> we're testing an update which is in the ~kubuntu-experimental PPA, please give it a shot and report results on bug 339313
[20:11] <ScorpKing> Riddell: ok thanks. will do
[20:11] <nixternal> [      homy] QUESTION: except from firefox looking really ugly in kde, in is a great browser, better than konqueror. Why can't you use firefox in kubuntu then? (without it being ugly)
[20:11] <Riddell> unfortunately there's only a couple of people upstream working on it and they're both very busy w ith other things
[20:12] <Riddell> nixternal: your turn to answer :)
[20:12] <chmj> hmm
[20:12] <chmj> hey Riddell
[20:12] <nixternal> homy: we are looking at other alternatives for a browser in Karmic...though last time I checked, Firefox wasn't on there
[20:12] <nixternal> as for the ugliness, I think it is actually looking much better in 9.04 than it has in the past
[20:12] <nixternal> there was talk about a kubufox, and actually at one point someone was working on it, though I don't know its status just yet
[20:13] <nixternal> there is^Wwas a project in mozilla for a Qt version of Firefox, but last I checked that wasn't going anywhere either
[20:13] <Riddell> we're a KDE distro so we only ship KDE or Qt apps (same as Ubuntu Desktop only ships Gnome/GTK apps)
[20:13] <Riddell> and we don't actually have room on the CD for a whole other set of libraries apart from anything else
[20:13] <nixternal> I am with you though, I wasn't a Firefox fan until KDE 4 was released and I was pretty much forced to use it over Konqi due to issues...I would like to see Firefox in the list of possible default browsers in Kubuntu, but that is something we will discuss at UDS next month
[20:13] <Riddell> you're perfectly free to install firefox yourself if that's what you like to use
[20:14] <nixternal> and then what Riddell just said, as I was going to cover that next :)
[20:14] <nixternal> next?
[20:14] <Riddell> 20:08 < mariamne> QUESTION: why should I help Kubuntu?
[20:14] <nixternal> you skipped one :)
[20:15] <nixternal> oh maybe you didn't, I might have skipped one
[20:15] <nixternal> mariamne: the question should be, "why shouldn't I help Kubuntu?" :)
[20:15] <Riddell> it's the best way to get the bugs which annoy you fixed
[20:16] <Riddell> for students working with free software is the  best way to learn about developing on computers
[20:16] <nixternal> there is no reason not to help Kubuntu...the awesome thing about Kubuntu is the community is a part of the great Ubuntu community, however we are a smaller footprint, and to me it seems that it might actually be easier to get involved, and who knows, in a week or so you will be the head ninja!
[20:16] <Riddell> Kubuntu has the best community ever, I love them all
[20:17] <nixternal> ditto
[20:17] <Riddell> and it's the easiest way to change the world, international freedom fighting has never been so fun to get into
[20:17] <nixternal> and lets not forget that by helping Kubuntu, there is a great chance that you end up helping KDE as well, therefor affecting a much larger audience
[20:18] <nixternal> one little known fact is that by helping Kubuntu, you are immune to the swine flu!
[20:18] <nixternal> next?
[20:18] <Riddell> 20:10 < Ireyon> QUESTION: how to change the kde keyboard layout? the system settings don't offer such a feature and the xorg.conf doesn't seem to accept such entries.
[20:19] <Riddell> I'm pretty certain system settings does let you do that
[20:19] <nixternal> Ireyon: care to ellaborate a little there?
[20:19] <nixternal> what are you trying to change that system settings isn't offering?
[20:20] <nixternal> Ireyon: feel free to answer that one in here if you would like
[20:20] <Riddell> lets move on in the mean time
[20:20] <Riddell> 20:11 < genii> QUESTION:  GTK apps like Firefox usually look like hell in KDE. Will we see some tools to make them less horrible like an improved versions of packages like gtk-qt-engine-kde4, or (preferably) QT ports?
[20:20] <nixternal> right
[20:21] <Riddell> at Kubuntu we can't be held accountable for the poor quality of GTK
[20:21] <Riddell> I don't know why GTK insists on shipping ugly themes by default but it's a hassle for us since we seem to get the blame
[20:22] <nixternal> I do think GTK apps are looking better in Jaunty though, as I use Firefox, Gimp, Gwibber, and others quite a bit
[20:22] <Riddell> gtk-qt-engine-kde4 is a bit buggy so we replaced it with gtk-qtcurve in jaunty which works well but isn't as slick looking
[20:23] <Riddell> 20:11 < shadowland> QUESTION: What's the future look like for Exchange support in any KDE mail app?
[20:23] <nixternal> as for a qt port of something like firefox, there was work on it, but it seems to have become a bit stale
[20:23] <nixternal> openexchange!!!
[20:23] <Riddell> I believe the kdepim team is working with the openexchange people on that
[20:23] <Riddell> kdepim gets funding from the likes  of the german government for stuff like that so I expect it'll come soon
[20:24] <nixternal> right now there is a project called openexchange which is starting to show its face in projects such as Evolution...right now the KDEPIM team is working very closely with the project in hoping to bring a solid MAPI solution to KDE, though we probably won't see an official release until the 4.4 time frame, as the 4.3 feature freeze is upon us
[20:24] <Riddell> 20:11 < mervaka> QUESTION: what advantages does QT offer over GTK?
[20:25] <Riddell> somebody hold me back or I may get opinionated here
[20:25] <nixternal> hehe
[20:25] <nixternal> Qt and GTK are without a doubt 2 of the greatest UI toolkits out there today
[20:25] <Riddell> Gnome is a fine desktop with lots of good ideas, but GTK I'll happily flame any day
[20:26] <Riddell> The power and intuitiveness of Qt's APIs is second to none
[20:26] <Riddell> and it gets better with every release with tonnes of new features
[20:27] <nixternal> like Riddell said, we might be opinionated a bit, but I will try to refrain from that....Honestly I think a big advantage with Qt is how easy it is to create a cross platform application, and KDE 4 is proving that...as it isn't only available for Linux/UNIX anymore, as it is also available for Windows and Mac, though not the desktop, just the applications right now
[20:27] <Riddell> it's graphics power is especially good, that's why stuff like Plasma is so blingy
[20:27] <nixternal> companies like Adobe, the people who create Nero, and even NASA seem to feel the same way, as they have chose to utilize Qt in some of their applications
[20:27] <Riddell> I've ported quite a few apps from gtk to qt/kde and the code just gets simpler and easier to read when you do it
[20:27] <nixternal> now if we can only open up their source :)
[20:28] <Riddell> ah well, as it happens Qt Software are in the process of doing exactly that
[20:28] <nixternal> Riddell: I love the way you just took my bait with that :)
[20:28] <mervaka> but isn't GTK cross platform too?
[20:28] <nixternal> yes it is
[20:29] <nixternal> now how easy it is to create a single app that is as easy to do with Qt and have it build and install on a Windows or Mac desktop, that I don't know
[20:29] <Riddell> they've changed to git and are doing the legal foo to be able to publish all their branches and let other people contribute directly on  in  branches
[20:29] <nixternal> LGPL FOR THE WIN!!! :)
[20:30] <Riddell> 20:13 < ScorpKing> QUESTION: will we see support for animated themes in plasma in the near future?
[20:30] <Riddell> I don't understand that, not sure I want my desktop to have constant animation
[20:30] <nixternal> I saw a blog post about that recently
[20:30] <nixternal> I don't know if we will see an entirely animated desktop, though it is possible
[20:31] <Eveready> possibl;e today, or possibly implemented?
[20:31] <ScorpKing> a lot of new kde users actually ask that question. what need to be done to implement something like that?
[20:31] <nixternal> possible to create today, the implemented part I don't know about...something I would have to ask upstream
[20:32] <Riddell> 20:14 < sebsebseb> Question:  How long will KDE3 be an option in  Ubuntu?  How to get more development help for that one guy that decided to resurcete KDE from the dead in 9.04?   As in it wasn't in the repo in 8.10, because lack of developers.
[20:32] <nixternal> just asked upstream, if I get an answer I will let you guys know, cool?
[20:32] <ScorpKing> nixternal: thanks
[20:32] <Riddell> sebsebseb: KDE 3 is not being developed any more, if we kept including it in ubuntu nothing would change or get better
[20:33] <mark726> :(
[20:33] <Riddell> there is a KDE 3 remix which was done by a hard working sole and 8.04 is still supported with KDE 3
[20:33] <sebsebseb> yep
[20:33] <nixternal> also, I am sure our single Kubuntu KDE 3 ninja would love your help :)
[20:34] <Riddell> so if you're not happy with KDE 4 yet go with one of those, and if you want to help him out with the remixes I'm sure he's welcome it
[20:34] <sebsebseb> nixternal: I would maybe, but I am still really a user :)
[20:34] <nixternal> sebsebseb: you can always help, no matter your experience level!
[20:35] <nixternal> join #kubuntu-devel if you are interested..the long KDE sole is currently afk
[20:35] <nixternal> s/long/lone
[20:35] <Riddell> but KDE 4 is the future, it's been a painful transition but the platform is the best there is and the few remaining missing features will get shaken out toot sweet
[20:35] <sebsebseb> nixternal: can't really help with much non code stuff I think, but maybe I am wrong
[20:35] <Riddell> testing is mostly what's neede
[20:35] <Riddell> we never have enough CD testers for example
[20:36] <Riddell> anyone who's installed an OS can do that
[20:36] <sebsebseb> oh ok :)  yeah I like to  get stuff early and test
[20:36] <Riddell> 20:15 < awkorama> QUESTION: If I were convinced to use KDE, how would you convince me to use kubuntu?
[20:36] <dwidmann_> Riddell: need some sort of mailing list or RSS feed for that ... something to remind people to go test ISOs
[20:37] <JontheEchidna> if you subscribe to Riddell's blog, he usually says when things need testing
[20:37] <JontheEchidna> and I'm guessing his blog probably has an RSS feed
[20:38] <nixternal> awkorama: that is a tough question...the great thing about the free software world is your choice, and i respect that fact that you choose kde, gnome, xfce, or any others
[20:38] <Riddell> awkorama: Kubuntu has all the great advantages of any Ubuntu distro, a speedy release schedule, simple one CD install, fine selection of applications by default
[20:38] <Riddell> we also have KDE packages available on the day of release
[20:39] <nixternal> as for convincing....hrmm....it is a great system, great community...added to what Riddell just said as well
[20:39] <Riddell> and for developers and hardcore fans we have trunk snapshots from Project Neon in a Launchpad PPA updated frequently
[20:39] <Riddell> also we have hot tub parties, no other distro offers that
[20:40] <Riddell> 20:19 < gregknicholson> QUESTION: Has WebKit been merged back into Konqueror yet? (I vaguely recall hearing somewhere that this was the plan.)
[20:40] <nixternal> OH NO, NOT THE HOT TUB PARTIES!
[20:40] <Riddell> nixternal: make sure you pack your swimming trunks for the summit next month
[20:41] <Riddell> gregknicholson: no, which is a bit of a shame.  there's a webkitkde kpart which you can install to make konqueror use webkit but it's not well integrated
[20:41] <Riddell> it's making us look at alternatives
[20:42] <Riddell> the KHTML developers would point  out that KHTML supports things that webkit doesn't
[20:42] <Riddell> webkit is being used throughout KDE now though, plasma for example is a big user of it
[20:42] <Riddell> 20:20 < francisco_t> QUESTION: What is the status with buggy drivers, video cards and kde4?
[20:43] <nixternal> the hardware manufacturers aren't fixing them quick enough?'
[20:43] <Riddell> francisco_t: jaunty's X drivers aren't great in my anecdotal experience.  the intel one seems to leak memory quite a bit
[20:44] <Riddell> it might work with UXA, or it might not depending on your luck.  I've read complaints that it breaks Qt apps and that it breaks GTK apps, it's all a bit random
[20:44] <Riddell> not my area though, moan to the Ubuntu X team :)
[20:44] <Riddell> 20:21 < dwidmann_> Question: What are the main things on the table for Kubuntu Karmic?
[20:45] <nixternal> Daviey: hot tub parties!
[20:45] <nixternal> err, dwidmann_ ^^ :)
[20:45] <Eveready> lol
[20:46] <nixternal> dwidmann_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuKarmicSpecs  <- there is the list we are compiling now for Karmic
[20:46] <Riddell> UDS is next month and we'll get together then and write up those specs in full with what we plan
[20:46] <nixternal> all of it will be discussed during UDS, and if you can't make it physically, the sessions are typically live online for you to join
[20:46] <Riddell> or come to Barcelona and say hi
[20:47]  * nixternal won't be there, but if you want to come to Chicago and say hi, I am game, first round is on you! :)
[20:47] <Riddell> KDE 4.3 of course, hopefully fixing bugs, getting rid of the last KDE 3 apps, finishing off some of our development stuff like printing and probably starting some more
[20:48] <Riddell> 20:24 < homy> QUESTION: Instead of helping kubuntu, shouldn't you rather help kde upstream directly, as kubuntu will also directly profit?
[20:48] <Riddell> as it happens, we do
[20:48] <nixternal> We do...I think more than half of us on the Kubuntu team are upstream developers
[20:48] <nixternal> I typically work in the "System Help" area
[20:49] <nixternal> though I am planning on expanding the areas I work in with KDE in the near future
[20:49] <Riddell> most of what Kubuntu does is packaging and testing
[20:49] <Riddell> but there are some areas that KDE developers don't care much about, such as printing (geeks don't print but as a distro we know we have lots of users who do)
[20:49] <nixternal> also, we tend to help Debian and other distros as well when they need help, because all of the distros can help make KDE better, as well as make each other better
[20:50] <Riddell> so we develop the printer setup and status tools and those go into KDE
[20:50] <nixternal> and System Settings
[20:50] <Riddell> there's user config tool too which has been worked on from the kubuntu side for similar reasons
[20:51] <Riddell> < T0m4rn0ld> QUESTION: Which KDE and Kubuntu release will make KDE4 really shine? (As in all apps mature and ported and everything polished and websites working)
[20:51] <nixternal> 4.5! Just kidding...someone in the blogosphere actually wrote that recently and I found it comical....
[20:52] <nixternal> I think in 4.3 you will see even more polish, but I feel that starting from right now, each release is going to make KDE 4 really shine
[20:52] <Riddell> I think KDE 4 desktop does really shine now, but some apps are still working on the transition
[20:53] <Riddell> Amarok 2 is fabulous, but still misses a few important features.   2.1 is looking great though
[20:53] <nixternal> functionality is being added, stability is getting a great deal of attention, and memory management is also being looked at
[20:53] <Riddell> KOffice 2 is also starting to get really nice, Krita will soon be a real photoshop killer
[20:53] <nixternal> yes, Krita is amazing...I turned an eye to it in the past, but man I was really impressed with it
[20:53] <Riddell> for Kubuntu, I'm saying that 10.04 (probably next LTS) will be a work of perfection
[20:54] <nixternal> now we just need tutorials out there for it, because I am horrible with graphics unless someone teaches me how to do it, and even then my graphics don't turn out as good as theirs does :)
[20:55] <nixternal> Kubuntu Leaping Leopard LTS (to many L's, though there are to many K's right now) :p
[20:55] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[20:56] <Riddell> I think we're about done
[20:56] <MagicFab> o/
[20:56] <dwidmann_> KKK ...  my oh my
[20:57] <Riddell> if you want to join the party and help with Kubuntu  #kubuntu-devel is the place to go.  if you need some help #kubuntu
[20:57] <nixternal> THANKS EVERYONE! great questions!
[20:57]  * Riddell high fives nixternal
[20:57] <homy> thanks for the great session!
[20:58] <jcastro> MagicFab: about ready?
[20:58] <jcastro> ok everyone take a few minute break
[20:58] <MagicFab> yup
[20:58]  * nixternal hugs Riddell
[20:58] <MagicFab> in ~5 would be perfect :)
[20:58]  * nixternal hugs MagicFab
[20:58] <MagicFab> uh actually 2
[20:58] <MagicFab> :)
[20:59] <bruce89> ah
[21:01] <Led> Hi
[21:02] <JFo> MagicFab, can I call this the Ubu-guru session for my own personal benefit? :-)
[21:02] <JFo> whoops, meant to put that in the -chat channel
[21:02] <JFo> sry
[21:02] <MagicFab> Sure do
[21:02] <MagicFab> Hi all
[21:03] <MagicFab> I'll wait for jcastro 's cue to start
[21:03] <jcastro> whenever you're ready!
[21:03] <MagicFab> Hi All, Fabian Rodriguez here. I work at Canonical's Global Support Services center in Montreal, Canada as a senior support analyst and technical trainer for support & server stuff since November 2006. I am mostly interested in free technologies advocacy (including formats, content, licencing) & training for new users, with an emphasis on security.
[21:03] <Pirate_Hunter> hi new here but what is this irc about?
[21:04] <MagicFab> More about me: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MagicFab
[21:04] <sebsebseb> Pirate_Hunter: I think it's about promoting Ubuntu to people
[21:04] <MagicFab> Glad to see so many people attending Open Week sessions! I've enjoyed them too and I hope I get some very hard questions today :)
[21:04] <sebsebseb> Pirate_Hunter: to the naigbhours or whoever,  but without them asking for technical suppourt all the time
[21:04] <MagicFab> This session log will be at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/UbuntuGuru , for now there is a description.
[21:04] <MagicFab> Joking aside, I am very interested in the cultural notion that "the computer guy" is always sucked into supporting family & friends for free, with high expectations. I want to beat that and help you convince people that they can handle Ubuntu by themselves. Heck, my parents do!
[21:05] <MagicFab> Another talk very close to this one is Efrain Valle's With a Little Help tomorrow at 15:00 UTC - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/UbuntuHelp . He'll be going into more detail about all the great Ubuntu support & self-help resources.
[21:05] <MagicFab> Empower your new Ubuntu converts or prospects to become autonomous and be part of the community (or not!) with some technical support power tricks and key, chosen URLs that will help quickly understand Ubuntu and free software.
[21:05] <Pirate_Hunter> hmmm until my parents learn to use their mobiles fones properly i disagree with that or even the pc
[21:05] <jcastro> discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please Pirate_Hunter!
[21:05] <MagicFab> With that in mmind, I'll take quesitons and try to show some of my stuff along the way.
[21:06] <Pirate_Hunter> sorry
[21:06]  * MagicFab whips
[21:06] <MagicFab> :)
[21:07] <Eveready> thx MagicFab. I am that computer guy.
[21:07] <sebsebseb> MagicFab:   what's at 15:00?
[21:07] <MagicFab> Eveready, pfew i thought all had gone missing :)
[21:07] <MagicFab> When advocating Ubuntu or *any* free software, you'll notice it's much easier to **listen** and answers questions than to **propose** and impose information.
[21:08] <sebsebseb> Eveready: people around here to locked into Windows,  would be nice if I could convert people out there more,  tried a little in the past, and failed
 MagicFab: QUESTION: Can you give us an idea of the typical problems you guys deal with in support? Like, what are the common ones?
[21:09] <MagicFab> Well, at commercial support we deal with anything - really. From "I forgot my password" to "Data corruption on RAID" :)
[21:09] <Eveready> I use windows all the time. Its just that I have to lock it all down. Admin user by default scares me, and is oblivious to most
[21:09] <MagicFab> jcastro, will you relay / filter questions here or should I ?
[21:09] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: how do you recommend handling the situation when your new-convert neighbor buys a windows-only printer or whatnot and whines when it cannot be made to work?
[21:10] <MagicFab> BugeyeD, I first ask what the return policy is :)
[21:10] <MagicFab> Printers support is easy to check - linuxprinting.org should give all needed info.
[21:11] <MagicFab> HPs are best in my opinion - if it doesn't work at all, contact the manufacturer - youd' be surprised how many do have linux support!
[21:12] <JFo> MagicFab, I'll copy paste for you if you like
[21:12] <MagicFab> JFo, that would help  a lot tx
[21:12] <JFo> k, np
 Question: How does canonical deal with Local support - for those who dont speak english?
[21:12] <MagicFab> Well one of my killer tips is you should NOT rely on Canonical. It doesn't scale. We speak 8 languages in the support center.
[21:13] <MagicFab> But we can'tpossibliy follow up, escalate bug reports, involve devs, etc.
[21:13] <MagicFab> Rely *and relay* all you can to local resources. Don't make yourself THE target of unlimited, free, 24/7 support. Set your limits, with helpful phrases like "you know, there is a strong worldwide community of Ubuntu users. We all go by the CoC...". Know you local team website.
[21:14] <MagicFab> that leads to introducing the Local Community teams. When someone calls us and they speak another language, most of the time they can handle very basic English. Enough to show them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
[21:14] <MagicFab> next ?
 MagicFab, How would you explain to someone why it would be better to use linux (ubuntu) as the prefered OS instead of windows? this is a question i get all the times and I still ahve not come up with an answer that would convince someone new/computer illiterate
[21:14] <KickAssClown> Hello
[21:15] <MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, It's a typical mistake to advertise something as best or better. It depends on everyone. I explain why it's better for me and my wife who is a 1stgrade t4eacher. How I used to be a Windows power user.
[21:15] <JFo> KickAssClown, please chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[21:15] <MagicFab> A great site that helps is http://www.getgnulinux.org/
[21:16] <MagicFab> I dont'say much ! I ask them GO READ THIS - It's in 8 languages, enough for me... I explain I don't like the "anti-Microsoft" tone (really, I dont) - but I ask them to read it and *THEN* come back to me! They feel like I trust them to understand. And to my amazement, they do!
[21:16] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION:  I would feel a bit uncomfortable even going to my next door naighbours with an Ubuntu CD, that I don't really know that well, or complete strangers on the same street, and then trying to convert them to Ubuntu.   So  how could I even get those people interested, without looking like some geek/weirdo?
[21:16] <bruce89> JFo: don't
[21:17] <MagicFab> sebsebseb, then don't ! I used to be that ANNOYING GUY!!!!
[21:17] <MagicFab> :)
[21:17] <MagicFab> I said before..
[21:17] <MagicFab> When advocating Ubuntu or *any* free software, you'll notice it's much easier to **listen** and answers questions than to **propose** and impose information.
[21:17] <MagicFab> People know I am "working with computers" but when they ask "what do you do for XXXX" or "How do you... XXX" I have a very short answer: "I may not be able to help you. I use mostly free software, I don't use Windows or Mac OS". STOP!!! I don't elaborate.
[21:17] <MagicFab> So a few people come back and ask more, intrigued. I give them homework.
[21:17] <bruce89> that's the way I'd approach it
[21:18] <MagicFab> I make them ask me or *someone else* - here, plug that getgnulinux.org site or your loCo team. Invite them to a *SOCIAL* event, not a technical one.
[21:18] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION:  Naighbours,  how about local schools and such,  could I ever get them interested in say Edubuntu, sucessfully?
[21:18] <MagicFab> sebsebseb, of course. It's more subtle.
[21:18] <KickAssClown> I have a simple request. I'm learning W-Grammar, also known as van wijngaarden grammar. I
[21:18] <MagicFab> I'll start with the famous "in these times... " :)
[21:18] <jussi01> KickAssClown: chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please :)
[21:19] <sebsebseb> MagicFab: how it seems in UK,  you got to get  BECTA won over, or whoever is in charge of  the  local education athority and what software schools use.
[21:19] <MagicFab> So, in local organizations, pass some articles about how X saved $$Y with Ubuntu (or else)
[21:19] <angelblade> if you have a website , http://www.getgnulinux.org/ have link buttons for spread free software
[21:19] <MagicFab> always BACK OFF, remember the golden rule: wait for them to ask.
[21:19] <KickAssClown> I'm looking for an appropriate community to discuss it with. I was hoping someone here might be able to direct me to another source if this classroom is not the place to learn such things.
[21:19] <sebsebseb> MagicFab: well they woudn't ask, since they don't know I exist, which is also the problem
[21:19] <MagicFab> Ok, I'll stop the session here if people don't sta in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
[21:20] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: do you think what helping *too much* a newbie will be good or bad for him?
[21:20] <jussi01> MagicFab: we can +m it if you need
[21:20] <jcastro> we can +m if you'd like
[21:20] <MagicFab> sirderigo, interesting :)
[21:20] <MagicFab> I'd say BAD
[21:20] <MagicFab> let people explore, give them tools
[21:21] <MagicFab> Fo rexample, refer to official documentation - https://help.ubuntu.com/ is a *great*, easy starting point for any new comers to Ubuntu, yet many old hats just don't know about it!! As a support analyst, but also as "the computer guy", I *have* to know what the official docs contain - or else die of shame at the next Ubuntu party :)
[21:21] <MagicFab> Regarding actual support, you need to let people know a few things that are key so they become AUTONOMOUS:
[21:22] <MagicFab> the more they learn that they can do things on their own, the less you'll hear about them.
[21:22] <MagicFab> For exeample
[21:22] <MagicFab> What distribution / version do they have ? You'd be surprised how many people call Canonical commercial support asking about RedHat ! Show your new Ubuntu converts System > Administration > System Monitor. It's an easy, graphical way to know your Ubuntu version, kernel version, memory, etc.
[21:22] <MagicFab> sirderigo, so - don't show too much - but also make sure what you show leads to more - without you
[21:22] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: there is still a huge problem with proprietary formats (namely .doc, docx etc.).. i have no power over many of the users of these formats? ubuntu office suites do not import the formats correctly all the time, what is the solution here? (i heard that windows 7 will include virtualized xp, can this be a clue) ?
[21:23] <MagicFab> awkorama, there's no simple solution. But here, a few tricks:
[21:23] <MagicFab> - many people use 20 ENTERS instead of proper page breaks - that husrt formatting
[21:23] <MagicFab> - Fonts are always missing - the msttcorefonts package helps
[21:23] <MagicFab> etc..
[21:24] <MagicFab> bottom line - don't deal with it. Be practical and help people understand the problem - not the symptom.
[21:24] <MagicFab> They wan tto keep saving in .doc ? Fine! Do it. Eventually they'll ask about free formats and then....
[21:25] <MagicFab> wham! http://www.openformats.org/main
[21:25] <MagicFab> give them more homework :)
[21:25] <MagicFab> surely, but slowly - they'll educate themselves. I don't give the moral speech about it anymore.
[21:25] <MagicFab> next ?
 MagicFab, what about those people that have some pc knowledge but still believe those linux fab like you have to use commands, no gui etc... I had to handle one of them once showed them ubuntu on my system with gui and they were like yeah but i still would have to learn the commands 0.o???
[21:26] <MagicFab> JFo, getgnulinux.org has great screenshots.
[21:26] <MagicFab> That's it!   Start small. You know the saying three is company.. :)
[21:27] <MagicFab> Blog about it, eventually someone else will pick it up.
[21:28] <MagicFab> It's hard to start from zero, but I've helped many teams do exctly that.
[21:28] <MagicFab> Worse thing that can happen, you make 1-2 new friends. They tell 2 more.. then next month the meeting is 5 people and so on.
[21:28] <MagicFab> We had release parties with 4 people in Montreal!!!!
[21:28] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION:  Helping  people in the local community with  Ubuntu,  that's fun and a nice thing to do, but we live in a society where money is used,  so  I wonder if I could ever  make good money from doing homeuser/consumer  Ubuntu and Windows suppourt, focuessing on the software, since I am not much of a hardware guy.
[21:29] <MagicFab> sebsebseb, Canonical hired me.
[21:29] <MagicFab> next ?
[21:29] <MagicFab> ok, seriously, I think yes :)
 Question: What resources exist from Canonical with regard to educating Loco's and individuals?
[21:29] <sebsebseb> MagicFab: why?  and I looked into that, it seems Canocnical want the best.   so like LPI  I would have to do maybe, and some Ubuntu quallification etc
[21:30] <sebsebseb> MagicFab: plus I thought Canocial mainly did servers
[21:30] <MagicFab> I used ot be a consultant before joining Canonical. I see many,many opportunities for doing business with Ubuntu. Look up "open source business model" or look me up in #ubuntu-ca :)
[21:30] <MagicFab> next ?
[21:30] <JFo> no more questions just now MagicFab
[21:31] <ceelight> don't forgt jussi01
[21:31] <MagicFab> jussi01, regarding individuals, shop.canonical.com has the online Ubuntu Desktop Course for ~U$60 I think.
[21:31] <Pirate_Hunter> yes there is mine which was not answered i believe?
[21:32] <MagicFab> and i know there's great activity around education in the community these days. Canonical as a business doesn't focus that much on individuals, however we have 3 people dedicated full time to the communityt (including jcastro who helped organize openweek)
[21:32] <MagicFab> So I previously mentioned.../
[21:32] <MagicFab> help your new converts know what Ubuntu version they run. I meant it!
[21:32] <MagicFab> Related to that...
[21:33] <MagicFab> What support cycle can you expect? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases - yes, I often forget to tell friends to upgrade before their version reaches EOL!!
 QUESTION: you've mentioned locos and canonical support; do you have an opinion of answers.lp.net?
[21:33] <MagicFab> Keep this in mind.
[21:33] <MagicFab> Tell your converts to share the version they have in any request for help... for example.. "I use Ubuntu Hardy and... " it's an important detail! This combined with knowing about the official docs... helps a lot
[21:34] <MagicFab> pwnguin, I love it. I wish it was multilingual! Hopefully LP being open source many people will see value in that _ I know i'll pitch in.
[21:34] <pwnguin> it's not multilingual?
[21:34] <MagicFab> I also think Answer is not used to its potential by any stretch!
[21:34] <MagicFab> pwnguin, the interface is not - and that means it  won't get used by many.
[21:34] <MagicFab> next ?
 MagicFab, I do believe the transition of an os to linux (ubuntu) can be very difficult even knowing most linux os nowaday do provide a desktop environment that people can use with most desirable applications I still believe for someone that is new it can still be hard i.e. i just had to install ubuntu-restricted-extra even knowing rythbox is there, most users would expect to just point it to their music folder and it w
 ould play any format
[21:36] <MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, interesting. I never install metapackages of non-free stuff. It's not needed. Pick only what you need. When they ask, have your 2 sentence ready on why this happens:
[21:36] <MagicFab> 1) Manufacturers lack of support
[21:36] <MagicFab> and/or
[21:36] <MagicFab> 2) Established "standards" on products/ formats/ software that are patented and as such, not available for free
[21:36] <MagicFab> I over simplify but yes, be ready.
[21:36] <MagicFab> THe FSF site may help in understanding some of that
[21:37] <MagicFab> You may need to tone it down for friends / family though.
[21:37] <MagicFab> Don't shove things down anyone's throat :) Wait until people notice what you do and answer their questions in a brief, precise way.
[21:37] <MagicFab>  Stick to the original question! I've found the more I talk, the less people listen to me. The more I listen, the more they trust me.
[21:37] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: If people do this poorly, isn't there a danger of doing more harm than good to the reputation of Ubuntu?
[21:38] <MagicFab> ball, well, I am trusting all people here will do a great job. I fyou are not 300% sure about something, saying "I don't know" is also in order.
[21:39] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: what do you think what non-official activities in a LoCo are good or bad?
[21:40] <MagicFab> sirderigo, I wouldn't say anything is "bad" or "good" - but, well, if you organize mushroom hunting parties and call them Ubuntu... at least give out CDs or something :)
[21:41] <MagicFab> generally speaking I wouldn't put myself ina  situation where people or organizations confuse a Loco Team activity with commercial support from Canonical for example.
[21:41] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION:  I wonder how I could find out who uses Ubuntu around here, or would be interested in using it.   I guess I can't really find out easilly since my  LOCO is  dead or pretty much dead, but as far as I know also somewhere I can't just get to, if it is still running.
[21:41] <MagicFab> sebsebseb, which Loco ?
[21:41] <sebsebseb> MagicFab: Bristol  and Bath one for England
[21:42] <MagicFab> sebsebseb, so put up a small flyer, invite a few friends to a local pub. Call it "Ubuntu Bristol" or else.
[21:42] <sebsebseb> [21:38] <ball> QUESTION: What sebsebseb said
[21:42] <ball> Is Bath back in Wiltshire now?
[21:42] <sebsebseb> ball: yeah think so
[21:42] <MagicFab> Even if only 2 people show up, so be it! In time it will build. You'd be surprised how many people show up.
[21:42] <ball> sebsebseb: I live in the U.S, but have the same problem: No LoCo
[21:42] <MagicFab> Of course abuse facebook for that. I have the most ubuntu pimped Facebook account on earth. And no, you can't be my friend.
[21:42] <MagicFab> :0
[21:42] <MagicFab> next ?
 MagicFab, i understand that but that options means that people will have to stop using there music files and hope either that the manufacturers someday release music in opensource format which will never happen, it doesnt actually solve the problem, this are people that are coming from another os they have their files and would like to use them instead of being told sorry maybe you can use this file instead. what does
 one do in that situation?
[21:43] <MagicFab> *Disclaimer* I don't know Pirate_Hunter, he or she's just a great Open week participant :)
[21:43] <sebsebseb> MagicFab: yeah I turned my Myspace into an about me page and software promotion :d  ,but  hardly anyone uses Myspace around here anymore,  so  I basically just like tell people from net to look at it sometimes
[21:43] <jussi01> sebsebseb: please dont talk here. use #ubuntu-classrom-chat
[21:43] <sebsebseb> jussi01: I know
[21:43] <MagicFab> sebsebseb, stick to u-c-c
[21:43] <MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, no!
[21:44] <MagicFab> Let them find out. Install mp3 support for now. although MP3 patents will soon expire, isn't it ? Research it on Wikipedia.
[21:44] <MagicFab> Wikipedia is THE most layman's place to read about tech stuff. An dget precise detailslike dates.
[21:45] <MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, KNOW your Ogg Audio -playing devices, there are many.
[21:45] <MagicFab> Don't insist on free formats. People eventually get it. Point them to http://www.openformats.org/en4
[21:45] <MagicFab> Remember ? HOMEWORK! People understand this stuff, don't underestimate.
[21:45] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION:  When a person realizes that using Ubuntu is not just an OS but a whole community, how do you direct their efforts if they are a non-technical person, so they stay energized and excited about Ubuntu?  What are the top 3 questions to ask to direct them, their are so many directions you can go in, how do you keep it ordered and not overwhelming?
[21:46] <MagicFab> akgraner, :)
[21:46] <akgraner> :)
[21:46] <MagicFab> You don't. They have to do it on their own. You only have to remain *available*. Don't push it.
[21:46] <MagicFab> HOWEVER!
[21:47] <MagicFab> If you're talking about bug reports.. well, show them some you have filed (if you have) . If you are talking about docs, show them..
[21:47] <MagicFab> well... show them how YOU have remained energized etc.!
[21:47] <MagicFab> 3 questions for them:
[21:47] <MagicFab> - Do you have the time ?
[21:47] <MagicFab> - Do you care ?
[21:48] <MagicFab> - Do you want me to care and dedicate time to you ?
[21:48] <MagicFab> Of course dress it up accordingly..
[21:48] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: Isn't it kind of strange to expect some help from users? I mean, many people view their computers as tools and most tools require no help from them to function.
[21:49] <MagicFab> awkorama, you know what, most people don't really need help. They need a couple more tools.
[21:49] <MagicFab> 1) Documentation
[21:50] <MagicFab> 2) The assurance that you are available (well, you = the community)
[21:50] <MagicFab> 3) No "RTFM " or  "You're stupid, you don't get it" attitude
[21:50] <awkorama> I meant more like.. How to make someone passionate about contributing to community, I don't cotribute to community of my car manufacturer.. whatever
[21:51] <MagicFab> Strange ? no. I believe humans rely on peer help to the extent they become autonomous. Software / tech stuff it's not different.
[21:51] <MagicFab> awkorama, you don't "make" someone passionate.
[21:51] <MagicFab> You know, I worked in several call centers. I had to sell stuff. When someone didn't want it, we had 3 minutes to determine that. Then, we took another call.
[21:52] <MagicFab> TAKE THE NEXT UBUNTU CONVERT - don't spend precious time convincin someone.
[21:52] <MagicFab> Eventually people notice something is off - why is everyone paying for antivirus ? Why can't I find a MS Word french dicitonary at 2AM ? Then they remember you.
 QUESTION: I don't know how to say no!!! How can i say NO I CAN"T HELP in a nice way ?
[21:52] <MagicFab> sirderigo, great question (in Spanish, so I translated)
[21:52] <MagicFab> You NEVER say no.
[21:53] <MagicFab> You say "sure, post it in a public forum".
[21:53] <MagicFab> Tell anyone that asks for free help you will give them free, unlimited, 24/7 life support.
[21:53] <MagicFab> First question they ask, ask them pol;itely to post it in your LoCo Team forum, mailing list or IRC. Make sure you ARE there and reply to it, follow up etc. Then they will notice the rest of the community.
[21:54] <MagicFab> Then, you pray everyone follows th eCode of Conduct and the sheer love is soooo overwhelming they'll "get it" and contribute back.
[21:54] <MagicFab> You know what ? I had to tell people how to ask for MY free help.
[21:55] <MagicFab> on my contact poage I have the most ridiculous rules
[21:55] <MagicFab> "I don’t reply to any emails that demand free help, are unreadable or impossible to understand, lack any courtesy, are not signed."
[21:55] <MagicFab> I also set expectations straight
[21:55] <MagicFab> "I reply to requests as time permits, mostly within 48 hrs. Emergencies and current customers under contract are prioritized, with a response time usually under 4 hours. "
[21:55] <MagicFab> not asking everyone to be like that :) but within Ubuntu context, you need to barter.
[21:56] <MagicFab> "You want my free help ? OK, let's make sure it counts for EVERYONE. As a side effect, let's expose it more".
[21:56] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: Do we have to get the CBC talking about Ubuntu for civilians to believe it's credible?
[21:57] <MagicFab> ball, we don't. They will :) In fact they have. ;) Remember, people eventyally notince "something's going on".
[21:57] <MagicFab> next ?
 QUESTION: ~50 people have rsvp'd for a distro-neutral LUG event within walking distance of my house. what benefits does a loco provide over traditional LUGs? and can they coexist?
[21:58] <MagicFab> pwnguin, again, none is better or worse. They usually coexist. In fact I had a gentoo guy always on the #ubuntu-co channel - he eventually admitted he was there to "learn how you guys can chat without fighting!".
[21:58] <MagicFab> Each learn from the other - just don't be pushy and of course ignore non-constructive people - hardest :)
[21:58] <MagicFab> next ?
[21:58] <JFo> That looks like the last one MagicFab
[21:58] <MagicFab> and we have 2 min left I think.
[21:59] <MagicFab> Ok so one LAST thing!!
[21:59] <elk80> Will there be a log posted from this session? (sorry to break in!)
[21:59] <MagicFab> I mentioned before...
[21:59] <sebsebseb> elk80: yes there will be
[21:59] <MagicFab> "Tell your converts to share the version they have in any request for help... for example.. "I use ubuntu hardy and... " it's an important detail!
[21:59] <MagicFab> Why ? well beware of dates! Remember support cycles ? Well, a forum post from january 2007 may not apply to Ubuntu Hardy! Same thing for blogs, bug reports, etc. - keep an eye open for this, it's amazing how much outdated stuff is out there.
[22:00] <MagicFab> Hopefully with what we discussed today, your new converts and targets  will be tempted to join the community - or get whatever they need when they have to :) It's OK too to *not* be sucked into all of it :D
[22:00] <MagicFab> Cheers to all and thanks for putting up w/ me.
[22:00] <jcastro> thanks MagicFab!
[22:00] <jcastro> mgunes: ready?
[22:00] <sebsebseb> MagicFab: thanks
[22:00]  * BUGabundo claps for MagicFab
[22:00] <MagicFab> special hugs to JFo, for managing Qs
[22:01] <akgraner> MagicFab, Thanks!
[22:01]  * elk80 is not happy she missed the session..
[22:01]  * MagicFab hugs jcastro , all
[22:01]  * ^arky^ claps
[22:01] <JFo> no sweat MagicFab :)
[22:01]  * sirderigo launch him hat to magicfab
[22:01] <Eveready> was a pleasure , MagicFab
[22:02] <jcastro> ok, we'll give mgunes a minute or two before he begins
[22:02] <jussi01> jcastro: Ok, Im off to bed now that you are back. nini :)
[22:02] <jcastro> as always, when the session is on please keep discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[22:03] <jcastro> mgunes: about ready?
[22:03] <jcastro> *crickets*
[22:04] <Mobuntu> will see you tomorrow MagicFab :-)
[22:05]  * james_w dresses up as a tumbleweed and rolls past
[22:05] <jcastro> ok stand by please
[22:05] <jcastro> ok, quick instructor swap-a-roo, bdmurray will be along shortly and the session will begin
[22:07] <bdmurray> Hey, sorry about that!
[22:07] <bdmurray> 'm here to talk to you today about how to report bugs about Ubuntu as there are various different ways you can do it.
[22:08] <bdmurray> Additionally, I'll cover how to make your bug report more likely to get fixed!
[22:08] <bdmurray> First we should talk about what exactly qualifies as a bug.
[22:08] <bdmurray> In computer software it is an error or a flaw that makes it behave in ways for which it wasn't designed.
[22:09] <bdmurray> Some of these can result in crashes, others may have a subtle effect on functionality, others can be spelling errors.
[22:09] <bdmurray> By reporting these issues you can help to make Ubuntu even better than it already is.
[22:09] <mgunes1> hi all, sorry for the delay; I've had a connection failure..
[22:10] <jcastro> mgunes1: no worries, we were just getting started
[22:11] <mgunes> bdmurray, do you mind if I go on? ;)
[22:11] <bdmurray> mgunes: nope go ahead, I just went over what qualifies as a bug
[22:11] <mgunes> alright
[22:12] <mgunes> just a short introduction: I'm Murat Güneş; I'm part of the Ubuntu Quality Assurance team, and I'm going to be talking about good bug reporting practices.
[22:12] <mgunes> My intention is that this talk will cover the basics of what a bug report is, how to help improve Ubuntu and the broader ecosystem of free and open source software by filing a good one, and some useful tools for and good habits in keeping track of the bugs that interest you in one way or another.
[22:13] <mgunes> Brian probably got you through some of the basics; especially once I've covered some more, feel free to interrupt with questions at any point and make the talk veer off into other topics related to bug reporting and quality assurance in general!
[22:13] <mgunes> but please keep the questions in the chat channel.
[22:14] <mgunes> Once you've encountered what can be classified as a "bug", you'll want to report it, so that it can be... fixed.
[22:15] <mgunes> It's probably a good idea to look at a few sample bug reports to get an idea of the anatomy of an Ubuntu bug report
[22:16] <mgunes> here's one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/file-roller/+bug/13199
[22:17] <mgunes> This bug has been encountered in Ubuntu, but also affects what's known as the "upstream project", which is to say, the project that the code making up the software originates from (in this case, Nautilus, the default file manager for Ubuntu)
[22:18] <mgunes> At the top you see a (not really ideal) description of the behavior. Some way below is a short and itemized description of the problem
[22:19] <mgunes> On the right, you see "duplicates", the bug reports that have been classified as describing the same underlying problem by bug triagers and developers.
[22:19] <mgunes> Below is the discussion, and the list of "subscribers", the people who are interested in receiving updates on the report for one reason or another.
[22:20] <mgunes> When should you report a bug?
[22:21] <mgunes> A good rule of thumb is to make sure that the problem you're encountering with the software is reproducible.
[22:23] <mgunes> If it's reproducible across different configurations and/or use cases,  is affecting the task you want to perform with the software negatively, it's most likely a bug.
[22:23] <mgunes> Let's go on with some basics of how to report a bug in Ubuntu.
[22:23] <mgunes> You'll see the URL https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug cited in many guides and articles about bug reporting.
[22:24] <mgunes> Yes, that is the default Launchpad URL that lets you pick a package and file a bug report in it.
[22:24] <mgunes> However, and that's a big however..
[22:24] <mgunes> There are other ways of reporting bugs which make the process of evaluating and fixing bugs much easier for developers and bug triagers
[22:25] <mgunes> With most graphical user-visible software that comes preinstalled with Ubuntu, you'll see a "Report a Problem" menu item on the "Help" menu.
[22:26] <mgunes> If you click on it, it will run the Apport bug reporting tool, which will collect basic information about the version of Ubuntu you are using, the version of the application that produced the problem, etc. and let you attach this information to the bug report.
[22:27] <mgunes> There's also the command line utility "ubuntu-bug".
[22:27] <mgunes> To file a bug in, say, Firefox in Ubuntu, all you have to do is type "ubuntu-bug firefox" in a terminal, and the same information will be collected.
[22:28] <mgunes> I'll stop here to take a look at some questions if any.
[22:28] <mgunes> sebsebseb: QUESTION:  let's take for example  Asterisk  the one from Ubuntu repo didn't just work it seems,   was it just buggy?   How would I even know, what a bug is?
[22:29] <sebsebseb> mgunes: that was 8.10, but I assume it will be like that in 9.04 to,  anyway that's pretty much irelivant
[22:29] <mgunes> sebsebseb: if you're not sure whether something is a bug, you may want to file a support request first (at the answer tracker or forums) and maybe perform some debugging (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures).
[22:30] <sebsebseb> mgunes: ah ok
[22:30] <mgunes> sebsebseb: if the problem seems to persist, and multiple people whom you've asked for support can reproduce it, it's likely, but NOT necessarily, a bug.
[22:30] <mgunes> sebsebseb: you can also ask for assistance on bug reporting at the #ubuntu-bugs IRC channel and Ubuntu Bug Squad mailing list.
[22:31] <mgunes> sheena1: QUESTION: Do you report a bug that already has a bug report? How do you decide?
[22:31] <mgunes> sheena1: If there's a bug report about the problem already, do not file another. Instead, if you're sure that the bug report is about the same problem, try to improve the existing report.
[22:32] <sheena1> mgunes: How can I find out more about how to do that?
[22:32] <mgunes> You can add new debugging information (see the debugging procedures link above), improve the title and description, add information about the way the bug manifests itself on *your* configuration, etc.
[22:32] <mgunes> All of these improve the report and possibly make it more likely to be fixed.
[22:33] <mgunes> sheena1: Here are some good links: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
[22:33] <mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/BestPractices
[22:33] <mgunes> again, if in doubt, always ask us!
[22:33] <sheena1> mgunes: Thank you! :)
[22:33] <mgunes> You're welcome.
[22:34] <mgunes> On with some basic info on reporting crashes..
[22:34] <mgunes> If you're using a development branch of Ubuntu, you'll have the Apport bug reporting assistance tool enabled by default.
[22:35] <mgunes> It will let you deal with crash bug reporting in an automatic fashion.
[22:36] <mgunes> You can also manually report crashes that have produced ".crash" files in your /var/crash directory by typing "ubuntu-bug /var/crash/nameoffile.crash
[22:36] <mgunes> ,"
[22:37] <mgunes> Again, Apport will take care of things.
[22:37] <mgunes> What if you've reported a bug, but forgot / neglected to use ubuntu-bug or "Report a Problem"?
[22:37] <mgunes> apport-retrace comes to the rescue.
[22:38] <mgunes> Correction: apport-collect comes to the rescue :)
[22:39] <mgunes> Simply type "apport-collect #123456" (the number of the bug report) and Apport will work its magic to collect the required information and attach it to the bug report.
[22:39] <mgunes> Any questions on the use of these tools?
[22:40] <mgunes> Let's go on with some "do"s and "don't"s in bug reporting.
[22:41] <mgunes> Make sure that your bug title is descriptive.
[22:41] <bdmurray> Without the "#" for appor-collect.
[22:41] <BUGabundo> mgunes: typo: s/apport-collect #12345/apport-collect 12345
[22:41] <mgunes> bdmurray, BUGabundo, thanks!
[22:42] <mgunes> "Weird problem with Firefox" is a bad title. "firefox prints only visible portion of image" is a good one.
[22:43] <mgunes> Follow up with your bug reports and try to improve them.
[22:43] <mgunes> If at first the problem was vague, but later you came up with more details, make sure those are posted.
[22:44] <mgunes> You can edit the description directly instead of adding comments.
[22:44] <mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures has links to many pages with information on how you can help developers come closer to pinpointing the underlying problems that cause the unwanted behavior.
[22:45] <mgunes> Use those procedures to improve your report, and when in doubt, do not hesitate to ask for help in #ubuntu-bugs or the Bug Squad mailing list.
[22:45] <mgunes> Use itemizing to list the steps for reproducing the issue.
[22:46] <mgunes> In your description, list each step you take to make the problem appear. This will help your description stay focused and concise.
[22:47] <mgunes> I want to reserve some time to other topics, so I'll refer you to a valuable blog post by MagicFab that better elaborates this: http://www.fabianrodriguez.com/blog/2008/01/18/the-bug-reporting-culture-10-things-to-avoid-10-things-you-must-do/
[22:47] <mgunes> Not to forget Bryce Harrington's http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/drupal/node/35 .
[22:47] <mgunes> Any questons?
[22:49] <mgunes> akgraner: QUESTION:  I Tried to use apport and I always get closed because I have outdated apps, how can that be if I update everything every the notifier tells me I have updates?
[22:49] <mgunes> akgraner: If I understand you correctly, you may be using an outdated mirror.
[22:50] <mgunes> akgraner: make sure that you use one that's up to date with the latest state of the development branch.
[22:50] <mgunes> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archivemirrors may help.
[22:50] <mgunes> unutbu: QUESTION: on Ubuntuforums there are some reports of Jaunty installs that fail at "formatting 5%". How should we determine if this is a bug, and if so, how should we most effectively report it? See for example http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7119628 and http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1142470 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/99908
[22:53] <mgunes> unutbu: on top of the info in the links I've posted above (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs being the starting point), you may want to join #ubuntu-bugs to get help from the ubuntu bug squad, or  get in touch with the developers of the software directly (in the case of Ubiquity, you may want to join #ubuntu-installer and kindly ask the developers there).
[22:53] <mgunes> BUGabundo: QUESTION: is using the apport descrition or any other crash, as the bug descrition good or bad?
[22:54]  * BUGabundo listens