[00:06] <naveen> i want to install ubuntu touch on xolo q3000
[00:10] <Talustus> ^^
[00:13] <k1l> naveen: if no one did a port already for it you need to make one for that device. but that needs some skills
[00:13] <k1l> Porting (advanced) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Porting
[00:54] <dobey> !devices | naveen
[00:55] <dobey> !patience | naveen
[04:13] <naveen> thank you ubot5
[04:49] <zsombi_> bfiller: kenvandine: if the statesaver doesn't get the quit signal, it won't wipe out the state database, so next time it will see it and restore it
[04:51] <zsombi_> kenvandine: the one question is whether your qtubuntu change does trigger the quit signal or not...
[04:51] <zsombi_> sorry, gerry's change :)
[06:41] <dholbach> good morning
[07:52] <guest42315> hi all, any idea how to handle gamepad from qml?
[08:18] <aavit> guest42315: haven't tried it myself but this may be interesting to you: http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2015-May/021380.html
[08:19]  * mcphail gently hums "In the Ghetto" and notes that his bq is still stuck on OTA-5
[08:21] <ogra_> mcphail, wed. was the estimated release day i thought
[08:22] <mcphail> ogra_: good to know. I'd heard "start of the week"
[08:22]  * mcphail loves an OTA
[08:23] <guest42315> thanks aavit
[08:44]  * popey wonders if he'll get his OTA before mcphail
[08:44] <ogra_> well, you know "the guy" ... thats unfair
[08:44] <mcphail> popey: that would be favouritism
[08:45] <jgdx> i'm living on the edge… rc proposed
[08:45] <mcphail> popey: plus, you've got about 100 Ubuntu phones. You'll be blocking the update server for ages
[08:46]  * mcphail imagines the Ubuntu-phone update server is powered by a hamster wheel
[08:47] <popey> hah
[08:47] <popey> i have _one_ retail bq phone
[08:47]  * Stanley00 is currently happy with rc-propose... update almost every day :P
[08:54] <mcphail> Stanley00: my mother used to tell me "You'd get bored with Christmas if it happened every day" :)
[08:59] <Stanley00> mcphail: yeah... but curently, waiting a month for new features is so slow for me...
[09:00] <mcphail> Stanley00: 6 week these days. 7 If you have a bq :(
[09:00] <CaptainHeavy> Hey everyone.  Sorry if this has been answered before but I can't find any official docs detailing an answer online.  I've just bough a Meizu MX4 with Ubuntu Touch and I'm looking to disable the automatic brightness dim feature, is this possible?
[09:01] <CaptainHeavy> I've tried the answer here but no joy: http://askubuntu.com/questions/628345/how-to-disable-ubuntu-phone-auto-dim-function
[09:02] <CaptainHeavy> On another note too, I take it that issuing "remount -o remount,rw /" is a bad idea for Ubuntu Touch due to OTA updates potentially bricking the phone?
[09:03] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: I think "bricking" would be a bit strong. You may need to reflash if soemthing goes wrong
[09:03] <jgdx> pete-woods, are the indicator-network integration tests passing locally for you?
[09:03] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: fair enough.  Its not encouraged to do the remount though?
[09:04] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: not encouraged, no. But I suspect most people on here do it for some purpose or another
[09:04] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: If you want to install software, though, the preferred option is a chroot
[09:04] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: OK, thank you.  I'd seen some people on the net strongly advising against it so thought it best to avoid it entirely!
[09:05] <Stanley00> mcphail: oh, that's exactly what I did on my phone, just wonder why there's no link on the web mention about that... :(
[09:05] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: I rewrite my /etc/hosts and add software to /usr/local/bin. Not had a problem yet, but ymmv
[09:06] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: sounds sensible, might give that a go if I get desperate :)
[09:06] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: I take it there's no official answer on turning off the auto-brightness dim then?
[09:07] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: do you mean the dimming which happens after a minute or so?
[09:07] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: that's the one!  Not the auto-lock, to clarify.
[09:08] <svij> CaptainHeavy: you can disable auto-brightness on the battery-indicator
[09:09] <CaptainHeavy> svij: sorry , didn't mean that type of auto-brightness, I meant the dimming that occurs after 40 seconds of inactivity, not the auto-brightness adjustment enabled by the sensor on the front of the phone.
[09:09] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: My understanding is that is fixed, but apps such as video players will have to specifically request not to dim. I may be wrong, though
[09:09] <svij> CaptainHeavy: oh right
[09:10] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: I was considering getting involved in developing the OS since I've noticed a couple of issues and am a programmer.  I've read that someone has made a pull request for a fix but I don't think its been merged yet.
[09:10] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: a fix for the auto-brightness dim, that is.
[09:11] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: aah. I thought it had been fixed in one of the -devel channels
[09:11] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: possibly, haven't had a look through the channels and code as of yet, only just got back to work today after the UK bank holiday (I got the phone last Wednesday for my birthday and had some time off too)
[09:12] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: if you are a programmer, I think you'll like the phone. It is very hackable
[09:13] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: and I'm sure the Ubuntu chaps/chapesses would appreciate all the help you can give
[09:13] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: Excellent, that's kind of what I expected from Ubuntu Touch :)  The scopes are nice but it'd be great if you could specify where content is pulled from in a more user-fiendly way.
[09:14] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: I'm still not sure about scopes, tbh.
[09:14] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: I'll have to make myself known then, I've not done any dev. work with Ubuntu but the phone has spurred me on.  Need to stop being so lazy about getting involved
[09:15] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: brilliant!
[09:15] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: I'm glad someone else has said that, I've shifted the app page so that its the first Scope I see since the "Today" Scrope sometimes hangs up and causes the phone to become inactive if there's no signal
[09:15] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: sorry, App scope
[09:16] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: me too
[09:16] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: It'd be nice if they could work like super RSS feeds I guess, that's what I meant by being able to edit where Scope content comes from
[09:17] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: I think the scopes suffer from being rather stateless, as well. Annoying when they always feel the need to refresh, and often fail
[09:18] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: aye, I imagine they use a significant amount of data too and some people may get a little peeved if their data costs increase due to them.  Seems like a "safer" solution to have the App Scope as the primary scope in that case.
[09:20] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: I'm not a social media user, so a "Today" scopw hich could tell me the day, date, calendar apts and weather should only need to refresh about 2--4 times/day
[09:20] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: just now, it seems to refresh every time I switch to it
[09:20] <pete-woods> jgdx: they always have done before your current MR at least
[09:21] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: I've noticed that too, think you're right about it
[09:21] <pete-woods> jgdx: unlike the indicator itself, the indicator-network testing is a thing of beauty
[09:24] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: The platform needs more apps, In particular, it needs more "proper" apps which keep state etc, rather than dumb-type webapps
[09:24] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: so any contributions would be appreciated
[09:25] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: yeah, the webapps seem easy to make I guess
[09:25] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: perhaps a little too easy :)
[09:26] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: Ideally, I'd like to get started on a browser app since the packaged browser seems a little clunky in places.  Plus, I use Google Chrome so it'd be nice to have the settings sync on the phone :)
[09:26] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: That and I used to program for the web
[09:27] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: I have no problem with decent html5 apps, but hate apps which are just a frame around a webpage
[09:27] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: apologies if this question sounds ignorant but, are you part of the core dev team?
[09:27] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: not in any way! I have no connection to Ubuntu or Canonical
[09:28] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: but lots of the team do lurk here and in #ubuntu-app-devel
[09:28] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: Yeah, its just added layers that seem useless when you could just access the webpage through the browser.
[09:28] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: cool, I'll hang out on those groups a little and see what's being discussed
[09:28] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: popey is the de facto interface to the core devs
[09:29] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: excellent, thank you
[09:29] <mcphail> CaptainHeavy: good luck. I'm off to a meeting but good to talk to you
[09:30] <CaptainHeavy> mcphail: thank you and same to you too :)
[09:33] <popey> hah
[09:33] <popey> thanks mcphail :)
[09:34] <mcphail> popey: you can't escape your dedstiny
[09:34]  * mcphail can't escape typos on this keyboard
[09:35] <popey> :)
[09:36]  * popey runs away
[09:36] <CaptainHeavy> popey: haha, don't worry, I don't bit!
[09:36] <CaptainHeavy> *bite
[09:38] <CaptainHeavy> popey: nice to see a core dev on here, by the way!
[09:55] <jgdx> pete-woods, okay, I'm getting test failures on trunk. Anything I need to do?
[09:58] <jgdx> pete-woods, it also fails horribly if the system lang is any other than english.
[12:21] <m0n5t3r> hm, SMS notifications get displayed while the phone is locked... this ain't good
[12:28] <ogra_> m0n5t3r, you can turn that off in the privacy settings
[12:58] <kenvandine> zsombi_, ah, so quit should be clearing it?  maybe that fix didn't completely fix it
[13:04] <kenvandine> jgdx, what do you make of this? https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/generic-deb-autopilot-runner-vivid-mako/3204/testReport/junit/ubuntu_system_settings.tests.test_cellular/DualSimCellularTestCase/test_roaming_switch/
[13:04] <kenvandine> jgdx, perhaps that was caused by that same problem where the page doesn't seem to get the data from ofono?
[13:05] <kenvandine> and doesn't display
[13:06] <jgdx> kenvandine, yeh, seen that a couple of times, but only together with the keyboard failure.
[13:06] <jgdx> if it's in the roaming tests, that's no longer keyboard related
[13:07] <jgdx> i don't have any suggestions at this point other than creating a proper dbusmock template
[13:07] <kenvandine> perhaps
[13:07] <kenvandine> but
[13:08] <kenvandine> didn't someone see that page not load in the wild?
[13:08] <kenvandine> not just in tests?
[13:08] <kenvandine> i think since the sim is null there, it's likely the same problem
[13:08] <m0n5t3r> ogra_: on the stable channel? the only thing that seems connected to this is "stats on welcome screen", but it's supposed to be about the activity circle thing, not notifications
[13:09] <kenvandine> jgdx, also... one of seb's string changes broke a test... i missed it because having failing tests was the norm :(
[13:09] <jgdx> kenvandine, when bill saw that the indicator was a goner as well, IIRC
[13:10] <kenvandine> yeah, i think that's a sign of deeper problems
[13:10] <kenvandine> but i think there's a real problem there
[13:10] <kenvandine> not sure if we can handle it in settings
[13:10] <kenvandine> i think the only fix was a reboot
[13:10] <kenvandine> so yeah, maybe mocking that better would be the right thing
[13:11] <ogra_> m0n5t3r, yes, it is there since day one iirc ... under the locking options
[13:11] <m0n5t3r> yup, disabled it and "no data sources available", notifications are stil accessible (for the record, "your login code is 123456" will display just fine in that space)
[13:11] <m0n5t3r> mkay, found it
[13:12] <m0n5t3r> thanks
[13:12] <Elleo> bfiller: heya, do you remember what sites you tried download vcf files from that didn't get detected and where you saw the browser showing up as a destination in the content-hub?
[13:12] <ogra_> m0n5t3r, i dont mesan the toplevel page :)
[13:12] <ogra_> ah
[13:12] <ogra_> :)
[13:12] <jgdx> kenvandine, have you looked at the syslog? Seeing http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12245327/
[13:13] <kenvandine> jgdx, ugh... good catch
[13:13] <kenvandine> jgdx, oh... Elleo is back, did you tell him about the keyboard failures?
[13:13] <kenvandine> Elleo, welcome back btw :)
[13:13] <jgdx> kenvandine, no, I just assumed my many pings would be in a log somewhere :p
[13:14] <Elleo> kenvandine: I saw the bug jgdx filed, haven't tried to reproduce it yet though
[13:14] <jgdx> and didn't want to add additionals
[13:14] <kenvandine> ah great, he filed a bug
[13:14] <jgdx> Elleo, did you have a good time off? :)
[13:14] <Elleo> jgdx: yeah, was really good; was camping up at the edinburgh fringe
[13:14] <kenvandine> nice
[13:14] <jgdx> abeato, hey, do you have any rough idea why this [1] would happen during system settings test runs on mako? [1] http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12245327/
[13:14] <m0n5t3r> ogra_: btw, you were saying I should run extra stuff in a separate lxc container... couldn't for the life of me make it work (it just won't start), but tor starts just fine from a chroot, I'll just have to find a way to make it start at boot
[13:15] <jgdx> Elleo, you're braver then I am! Camping? Tents?
[13:15] <kenvandine> Elleo, we've been seeing it in CI, and jgdx reproduced it running the ubuntu-keyboard autopilot tests as well
[13:15] <kenvandine> jgdx, i'm going camping this weekend :)
[13:15] <Elleo> jgdx: yeah, although unfortunately the campsite was out near the airport so was a bit noisey in the mornings ;)
[13:15] <abeato> jgdx, seems like an ofono crash, do you see crash files?
[13:15] <kenvandine> Elleo, that doesn't seem like nature :)
[13:16] <jgdx> kenvandine, but you have to, gat kids
[13:16] <kenvandine> indeed
[13:16] <Elleo> kenvandine: I wasn't there for nature, I was there for comedy ;)
[13:16] <jgdx> abeato, no crash files
[13:16] <kenvandine> haha
[13:16] <jgdx> Elleo, festival?
[13:16] <kenvandine> that's cool
[13:16] <Elleo> jgdx: yeah, the edinburgh fringe is one of the world's biggest theatre, comedy, arts, music, etc. festivals; runs for a whole month
[13:16] <bfiller> Elleo: let me find it
[13:17] <Elleo> managed to squeeze in 37 different shows while I was up there
[13:17] <jgdx> Elleo, nice
[13:17] <Elleo> bfiller: thanks
[13:17] <kenvandine> wow
[13:18] <abeato> jgdx, can you reproduce?
[13:18] <abeato> jgdx, syslog would help too
[13:19] <kenvandine> abeato, https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/generic-deb-autopilot-runner-vivid-mako/3204/
[13:19] <kenvandine> abeato, we've seen it in CI from time to time, not reliably
[13:19] <kenvandine> abeato, but some users have seen it on their devices
[13:19] <kenvandine> and when it happens i think the network indicator goes away too
[13:20] <kenvandine> abeato, but we don't really know how to reproduce it
[13:20] <ogra_> m0n5t3r, you should be able to create an upstart session job for the phablet user
[13:20] <kenvandine> abeato, of course the CI tests are on mako, and i think bfiller saw it on arale
[13:20] <kenvandine> so not just one type of device
[13:20] <jgdx> kenvandine, bfiller's could be unrelated
[13:20] <kenvandine> perhaps
[13:20] <jgdx> if this is new
[13:21] <kenvandine> i think the symptom is the same, just a different test triggered it
[13:21] <bfiller> jgdx: which problem you guys talkinga bout?
[13:21] <kenvandine> there were other tests that have failed where sim == null
[13:21] <ogra_> m0n5t3r, though not sure how you can handle the root requirements for something like chroot or lxc
[13:21] <jgdx> bfiller, spinning cellular panel
[13:21] <abeato> kenvandine, where is the link to the syslog in that page?
[13:21] <kenvandine> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/generic-deb-autopilot-runner-vivid-mako/3204/artifact/clientlogs/ubuntu_system_settings/syslog
[13:22] <abeato> kenvandine, great, thanks
[13:22] <jgdx> kenvandine, but when I reprod it on mako, it happened inside the cellular panel
[13:22] <jgdx> i.e. I got a UI, not the stuck spinner
[13:22] <kenvandine> jgdx, yeah... but i suspect the cause might be the same
[13:22] <kenvandine> basically ofono losing it's mind
[13:22] <kenvandine> making sim = null
[13:22] <kenvandine> it's a hunch anyway
[13:23] <kenvandine> so we see at least one modem, display the page
[13:23] <kenvandine> them sim changes to null
[13:23] <kenvandine> and boom
[13:23] <m0n5t3r> ogra_: I need root for transparent proxy firewall rules anyway, the global proxy thing doesn't work on mobile (/system/proxy/socks in dconf)
[13:23] <abeato> kenvandine, but which kind of tests are you running?
[13:24] <m0n5t3r> right now it's terminal, start thing with sudo
[13:24] <kenvandine> abeato, the test that failed in this case was switching roaming in the cellular panel
[13:25] <kenvandine> abeato, we haven't seen this often... but from time to time we see failures in cellular that has a similar symptom
[13:26] <abeato> kenvandine, jgdx ofono is exiting due to an assert, radio is suddenly switching to off
[13:26] <kenvandine> weird that ofono restarts without a crash though
[13:26] <abeato> it is an internal assert
[13:26] <kenvandine> ah
[13:26] <abeato> so I guess that's the reason
[13:26] <kenvandine> so no crash
[13:26] <abeato> g_assert()
[13:27] <abeato> "radio self-powered off!" is the smoking gun
[13:27] <bfiller> Elleo: sample vcard was from here: http://www.phpclasses.org/browse/file/5543.html
[13:27] <jgdx> abeato, why would that happen?
[13:27] <abeato> kenvandine, could you create a bug with the details?
[13:27] <abeato> no idea
[13:27] <kenvandine> abeato, sure
[13:27] <dobey> ugh, asserts in production code
[13:27] <abeato> kenvandine, you mean switching roaming data to on?
[13:28] <kenvandine> on or off, not sure off hand
[13:28] <kenvandine> but it doesn't get that far
[13:28] <m0n5t3r> ogra_: btw, the phone failing to boot after flashing thing resolved itself after I put in an SD card (for some reason the install script crashed before copying system files - I could get an adb shell into the recovery and look at some log in /tmp and it was complaining about a missing signature or keyring, and then it tried to mount the SD card and copy logs)
[13:28] <kenvandine> it never actually got the state
[13:28] <m0n5t3r> also, whoever thought it is a good idea to set the kernel serial baud rate to 921600 is nuts
[13:29] <abeato> hmm, ok
[13:29] <kenvandine> i think it blew up while the page was loading
[13:29] <abeato> this is probably mako-specific
[13:30] <kenvandine> ok, so maybe not the same thing bfiller saw
[13:30] <abeato> yep
[13:30] <kenvandine> 2015-09-01 01:19:21,100 - WARNING - file:///usr/share/ubuntu/settings/system/qml-plugins/cellular/Components/MultiSim.qml:123: TypeError: Cannot read property 'radioSettings' of null
[13:30] <kenvandine> we get stuff like that while the page loads
[13:31] <Elleo> bfiller: thanks, my test with a VCF file worked fine, looks like the issue is that the server here is sending the mime-type as 'application/octet-stream', so we probably need to use the file extension as a fallback when getting ambigious mimetypes like that
[13:31] <kenvandine> none of the properties were set
[13:31]  * kenvandine files bug, thanks
[13:31] <Elleo> bfiller: as at the moment we only use the file extension if we don't get a mimetype at all
[13:32] <bfiller> Elleo: yes makes sense, we should use extension as fall back
[13:32] <abeato> seems like some weird condition under automatic testing, maybe timing issues
[13:32] <kenvandine> abeato, could it have something to do with rfkill?
[13:33] <abeato> kenvandine, don't know, does the test set/unset flight mode?
[13:33] <kenvandine> no, but there are other tests that do
[13:33] <kenvandine> maybe that causes a problem before we get to this test
[13:34] <abeato> not impossible
[13:34] <kenvandine> although i don't recall ever seeing flight mode tests fail
[13:34] <kenvandine> jgdx, do you know if we mock urfkill?
[13:35] <abeato> ok, anyway, please attach the syslog to the bug
[13:35] <kenvandine> yeah
[13:35] <abeato> thanks
[13:35] <jgdx> kenvandine, hm
[13:37] <jgdx> kenvandine, pretty sure we don't
[13:38] <jgdx> kenvandine, why is the fm panel talking to rfkill at all?
[13:39] <kenvandine> jgdx, i actually am not sure it is, i've never looked at those tests
[13:39] <kenvandine> i think it should be doing it via the indicator
[13:40] <jgdx> kenvandine, yeah, the connectivity api has a flightMode prop
[13:40] <kenvandine> but the indicator would be calling urfkill
[13:41] <kenvandine> Failed to get flight-mode status: The name org.freedesktop.URfkill was not provided by any .service files
[13:41] <kenvandine> jgdx, ^^
[13:42] <jgdx> kenvandine, that's from the syslog?
[13:42] <kenvandine> no
[13:43] <kenvandine> the settings log
[13:43] <kenvandine> in the roaming test
[13:44] <kenvandine> abeato, jgdx: bug 1490991
[13:44] <jgdx> kenvandine, thanks
[13:44] <abeato> kenvandine, thx
[13:51] <matv1> in my lockscreen info thingy i am getting: 'No data for today (/com/canonical/UserMetrics/Datasource/1)'
[13:51] <matv1> never had that before
[13:52] <matv1> oh Bq stable channel OTA5
[13:52] <matv1> known bug?
[14:06] <CaptainHeavy> What's the deal with the "H" phone network symbol in the taskbar at the top of the display, by the way?
[14:08] <kenvandine> CaptainHeavy, that's for hspa
[14:10] <CaptainHeavy> kenvandine: fantastic, thank you!  I was concerned that the OS wasn't using 3G since there's a clear 2G indicator when the connection quality drops to it.
[15:06] <kenvandine> zsombi_, i've confirmed that we don't get the aboutToQuit signal when swiping to close
[15:06] <kenvandine> greyback, so bug 1434584 isn't completely fixed, and is causing us state saver problems
[15:07] <greyback> dednick: ^^ how's that coming?
[15:07] <kenvandine> oh, there's more work going on for that?
[15:07] <dednick> greyback: i have to pick up the review comments
[15:07] <greyback> kenvandine: there was work done, but then dednick had holidays. He's back now!
[15:08] <kenvandine> the sdk needs to clear the saved state when quit properly, so it only restores state in the case it was killed for oom
[15:08] <kenvandine> but right now it restores state regardless, because of this bug
[15:08] <kenvandine> greyback, so the other work is in qtmir?
[15:08] <greyback> ok, well dednick's work should resolve it so
[15:08] <greyback> kenvandine: yeah
[15:08] <kenvandine> cool
[15:09] <kenvandine> zsombi_, i'll dupe that other bug then
[15:09] <dednick> i've linked the MP, so you can see when the other branch is ready.
[15:09] <dednick> *to the bug
[15:09] <kenvandine> dednick, thanks!
[15:10] <kenvandine> bfiller, ^^ FYI
[15:25] <studio> hi
[15:25] <CaptainHeavy> what's the default setting for the "persist.service.ssh" property on Ubuntu Touch?
[15:26] <ogra_> CaptainHeavy, you should use the android-gadget-service to maintain that setting ... by default it is unset
[15:26] <CaptainHeavy> ogra_: I found out about that after tweaking the setting :(
[15:27] <studio> is iptables supported by the bq E4.5/5 and if yes, is snort or suricata also supported?
[15:27] <CaptainHeavy> ogra_: I'm guessing android_gadget_service will have overwritten the property value if I used it (ags) after setting it myself?
[15:28] <ogra_> android-gadget-service has a status command, check yourself ;)
[15:30] <ogra_> "android-gadget-service status ssh"
[15:31] <CaptainHeavy> ogra_: thanks :)
[15:35] <ogra_> popey, heh ... http://i.imgur.com/wYr77Gq.png (terminal open with kbd expanded ... screen locks after timeout and i'm greeted with that when turning it on again)
[15:37] <studio> only found this: "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/SnappyConfinement" and it talks about "snappy" and "future". so i am a little bit confused about that ...
[15:38] <popey> ogra_: that looks like a bug
[15:38] <ogra_> popey, a little, yes :)
[15:38] <popey> ogra_: not convinced it's the terminal tho
[15:39] <ogra_> funny that the same bugs return avery 5 years even if technology changes :)
[15:39] <popey> :)
[15:39] <ogra_> *every
[15:39]  * ogra_ remembers having "keyboard input goes to terminal" as bug in xscreensaver in 2006 :)
[15:40] <ogra_> (when screen locked indeed)
[15:40] <popey> studio: define "supported"?
[15:40] <popey> studio: I mean, iptables command is there, and you can set firewall rules, sure.
[15:41] <popey> kenvandine: why does system settings almost _always_ rotate to landscape when my phone is sat flat on my desk?
[15:42] <kenvandine> that would be the shell
[15:42] <kenvandine> don't know why
[15:42] <kenvandine> i see it sometimes too
[15:42] <popey> hm
[15:42] <kenvandine> not just settings
[15:42] <popey> i only seem to see it with settings
[15:42] <kenvandine> we don't do anything with orientation
[15:42] <popey> maybe my usage pattern or something
[15:42] <ogra_> popey, hmm, the keyboard thing is reliably reproducable for me ... even if i actively lock/unlock the screen
[15:42] <popey> ogra_: great! i look forward to the bug report
[15:43] <studio> popey, it is hard to find informations about "Ubuntu Touch" and firewall, iptables, IPS or IDS, therfore i am asking here. I'd prefer to know what my "mobile" -device is doing and how it act.
[15:43] <kenvandine> i saw it happen with 211 just this morning
[15:43] <ogra_> and the ls i just typed on the locked screen actually gets input into the terminal window ...
[15:43] <ogra_> funnily it only executes after unlocking :)
[15:43] <popey> heh
[15:43] <ogra_> (since the app is suspended i guess)
[15:44] <popey> studio: okay, well you can use iptables for sure.
[15:44] <ogra_> now ... do i file it against terminal or unity8
[15:44]  * popey tries to reproduce
[15:44] <popey> uh
[15:44] <popey> that came out wrong
[15:44]  * ogra_ flips coin
[15:44] <ogra_> well, you did already reproduce twice ... :P
[15:45] <popey> ogra_: [M#Vhttp://people.canonical.com/~alan/screenshots/device-2015-09-01-164517.png
[15:45] <popey> stupid paste
[15:45] <popey> http://people.canonical.com/~alan/screenshots/device-2015-09-01-164517.png
[15:45] <ogra_> yeah
[15:46] <popey> IMO unity8
[15:46] <ogra_> well, but additionally the terminal should probably collapse the kbd before suspending
[15:46] <popey> studio: the reason it's hard to find information about Ubuntu phone and those things is because nobody has written on such topics
[15:46] <ogra_> (though might be hard since it only gets a dumb SIGSTOP)
[15:46] <studio> popey, ok, iptables is for outgoing (and incoming) traffic, but what about an incoming, for exp. "scan" and what for exp. for an outgoing app. that is not "willed"?
[15:47] <popey> studio: that's a vague question
[15:47] <popey> studio: it's ubuntu, so the same things apply on phone as on desktop in general
[15:47] <popey> ogra_: i triggered it with browser too
[15:47] <popey> ogra_: so it aint terminal :)
[15:48] <ogra_> yeah
[15:49] <popey> studio: we don't block traffic per-app
[15:49] <popey> studio: so apps can do any outbound requests they like if they have the networking apparmor profile
[15:50] <popey> studio: we ship a firewall by default, and it's on, but with no rules set. Feel free to set some if you want.
[15:50] <ogra_> popey, bug 1491034
[15:51] <popey> confirmed
[15:51] <ogra_> all flowers for that one go to CaptainHeavy btw :)
[15:51] <popey> heh
[15:51] <ogra_> (i wouldnt have tested that without him asking about ssh above )
[15:54] <CaptainHeavy> ogra_: sorry!
[15:54] <ogra_> CaptainHeavy, no, no, thank you !!
[15:55] <studio> popey, so the ufw is the iptables based firewall, right? but this is only port and nat filtering, right?
[15:55] <CaptainHeavy> ogra_: well, I'm glad I inadvertently uncovered a bug but not for the work that's involved fixing it!
[15:55] <CaptainHeavy> ogra_: I'm giving poor DanChapman some issues on the #dekko channel too...
[15:57] <popey> heh, excellent
[15:57] <popey> studio: ufw is a tool for managing the firewall. You can find out lots about iptables and ufw online.
[15:57] <CaptainHeavy> I was meant to be working on some research today actually...
[15:57] <ogra_> CaptainHeavy, awesome :)
[15:57] <ogra_> finding bugs on ubuntu phones is also "some research" though ;)
[15:57] <studio> but what about incoming traffic like an portscan? how to detect that?
[15:57] <popey> CaptainHeavy: we welcome people poking at the phone and letting us know about bugs :)
[15:58] <popey> studio: no idea. Not a network expert
[15:58] <popey> (and I generally don't care about port scans, when ports are closed)
[15:58] <CaptainHeavy> Its a lovely bit of kit, I have to admit.  Ecstatic that I own one and can help with some part of the development process
[15:59] <studio> popey, therfore i asked about snort or suricata on an ubuntu touch device ...
[15:59] <CaptainHeavy> ogra_: haha, I guess so.  Luckily my place of work is open to "creative tangents"
[15:59] <popey> studio: we don't ship them, so we don't support them.
[16:00] <popey> studio: but you're free to install those kinds of things yourself.
[16:02] <studio> popey, how do you "personally" prevent you and your system from an outside attack or inside trojan?
[16:02] <popey> studio: none of your business :)
[16:02] <popey> ... is the correct answer, I think :)
[16:03] <studio> security do not mean business, or?
[16:03] <ogra_> popey, huh ? you mean you wont reveal your defense strategy in a publically logged channel ?
[16:03] <ogra_> tsk
[16:03] <ogra_> so selfish :P
[16:05] <popey> Exactly
[16:05] <popey> studio: no, my point is, you don't tell a robber where you hide your keys.
[16:07] <studio> popey, my problem is, how is the mobile connection on "ubuntu touch" to the internet controlled and by what?
[16:11] <popey> studio: the user controls the connection via network manager
[16:13] <ogra_> (like on every non-server *buntu)
[16:13] <studio> popey, the "network-manager" is dump. you also can't remove the network-manager without purging "ubuntu touch"
[16:13] <popey> studio: that's your choice
[16:13] <studio> the nm controlls nothing
[16:13] <popey> it is the high level control of connected / not-connected and wifi connected or cellular connected
[16:14] <popey> we don't provide detailed controls below that
[16:14] <ogra_> it also brings up the interfaces etc ...
[16:14] <ogra_> like on desktop ...
[16:16] <studio> popey, for exp. you made a connection with the nm to a 3g network to uses the internet. what is controlling the internet connection to your device or others, if you are using your device as an access point?
[16:16] <popey> you are
[16:16] <popey> if you switch it off, you are controlling it
[16:17] <studio> "me" ? sorry i am not able to set "root" an password on that device! so i control nothing ...
[16:17] <popey> that's not what I am saying.
[16:18] <popey> you asked "what is controlling the internet connection"
[16:18] <popey> My answer is "you" or "the owner of the phone"
[16:18] <studio> right
[16:18] <popey> if the owner chooses to open up ports / enable sharing, *they* are controlling it
[16:18] <popey> We don't provide more granular controls below that.
[16:20] <studio> popey, so if i can't protect my own, why should i use a device like that for an "access point" ?
[16:21] <popey> convenience
[16:22] <studio> hmm ..., that is not ubuntu-like ...
[16:22] <popey> sure it is.
[16:22] <popey> ✓ No ports open by default
[16:22] <popey> ✓ Easy to use tools
[16:23] <popey> ✓ Advanced (unsupported) tools for expert users
[16:23] <popey> That's _exactly_ the Ubuntu-like way
[16:23] <popey> Just because it doesn't fit _your_ specific use case, doesn't mean it's no good.
[16:24] <popey> Although it might be "no good" from your persepctive, which is fine, fix it, or pay someone else to fix it.
[16:27] <studio> ✓ No ports open by default, did you ever made a penetration test  when you got a 3g connection, if yes, with what tool?
[16:30] <popey> studio: not personally, no.
[16:30] <studio> try it :)
[16:32] <popey> studio: none open here
[16:33] <ogra_> yeah, how would they magically open :)
[16:34] <ogra_> opening a port means to run software on the device that opens it by default there is nothing like that shipped in ubuntu ... the only listening bit is DHCP because you cant block it out if you want to keep functional networking
[16:34] <studio> popey, what tool did you used?
[16:35] <chrisccoulson> Is the UI toolkit going to provide support for printing (including print dialog, print preview)?
[16:35] <popey> studio: nmap
[16:35] <popey> chrisccoulson: -> willcooke
[16:36] <studio> popey, try do use for exp. OpenVAS8 ...
[16:36] <popey> studio: what for? What will it find?
[16:37] <willcooke> chrisccoulson, popey -  pretty sure mpt has already drawn up the dialogs etc.  Not sure if the UI tk will have them or not
[16:37] <popey> studio: thats more than open ports
[16:37]  * ogra_ guesses chrisccoulson is more after lower level implementation details of the SDK
[16:37] <willcooke> so do I
[16:38] <ogra_> you somehow need to make the SDK talk to cups and stuff#
[16:38] <ogra_> so apps can "include QtShinyUbuntuPrinting 0.1" :)
[16:38] <willcooke> agreed
[16:39] <ogra_> a fun architectural challenge :)
[16:39] <willcooke> hummmm.
[16:40] <chrisccoulson> willcooke, ogra_, yeah, I keep getting asked about adding printing support to Oxide, but having support in QML/UITK is obviously a pre-requisite for that
[16:40] <chrisccoulson> I'm not sure whether people are aware that I can't just add printing support to Oxide without knowing what it's meant to be hooked up to :)
[16:40] <ogra_> chrisccoulson, well, while you wait you could just make WebRTC work
[16:40] <willcooke> I've got a task to get Till to look in to it, so he'll be investigating v. soon
[16:40]  * ogra_ hides
[16:40] <chrisccoulson> ogra_, it works already. As long as you're on desktop, anyway ;)
[16:41] <ogra_> hahaha
[16:41] <ogra_> yeah, i rarely use oxide on my trusty desktop :)
[16:43]  * ogra_ would like to use the spreed service we have on snappy to do end-to-end encrypted video conferences on his phone ;)
[16:43] <ogra_> so much better than hangouts
[16:46] <studio> popey >" thats more than open ports" ... for sure, that is, what my teacher told me, to check my own system ...
[16:47] <popey> studio: I never said anything more than open ports
[16:47] <popey> studio: did you find anything interesting?
[16:49] <studio> popey, yes, for sure. but my primary question was not answered. what is controlling the mobile connection?
[16:50] <popey> studio: Actually, I did, twice.
[16:50] <popey> studio: network manager at the high level, and we don't provide anything lower than that other than the tools you know, iptables and ufw
[16:51] <studio> popey, please, do not repeat "network-manager" ...
[16:51] <ogra_> popey, you forgot nmcli
[16:51] <popey> studio: if you don't like the answers, don't keep asking the same question (again)
[16:52] <ogra_> there is nothing else ... network manager brings up the devices and configures them
[16:52] <popey> studio: I note you avoided my question. Nice work.
[16:52] <studio> popey, how to "purge" the network-manager in "ubuntu touch"?
[16:53] <popey> studio: you know the answer to this question
[16:53] <studio> plz, tell me
[16:53] <popey> either 1) use apt to remove it, or 2) build your own image without it
[16:54] <studio> *lol*, come on, are you kidding?
[16:54] <popey> No.
[16:54] <popey> Our image is built with network manager.
[16:54] <popey> You want to make an image that uses something else, go ahead.
[16:55] <studio> so network-manager in ubuntu touch is fixed, same as internet-explorer in ms-windows?
[16:55] <popey> no, you can change it.
[16:56] <popey> but it requires some work.
[16:56] <popey> Work you seem to think _I_ should do for _you_?
[16:57] <popey> feel free to use connmann, flim-flam or whatever else you want to. But don't complain when it breaks.
[16:57] <studio> "popey - no, you can change it." PLEASE, give me an hint.
[16:57] <popey> Nope.
[16:57] <studio> why not?
[16:57] <popey> I waste enough of my time answering your stupid questions
[16:59] <studio> popey, sorry, that an user is asking "stupid questions" ... :(
[16:59] <popey> Not as sorry as I.
[17:00] <studio> the problem is, that the devs have no answer for the users ...
[17:00] <popey> No.
[17:00] <popey> The problem is this particular user doesn't like the answers he's been given.
[17:00] <popey> And keeps poking and poking and asking and asking the same question over and over until the people giving the answers get pissed off and walk away.
[17:02] <studio> as i always say to my friends, the problem is not the hardware, for exp. the Aquaris E4.5 or Aquaris E5 (HD). the problem is "in the moment" the OS ...
[17:03] <popey> Still not answering my question then?
[17:04] <studio> popey, sorry for mismatching ... what was "your" question?
[17:04] <popey> studio: what did you find when you scanned your phone.
[17:06] <studio> nothing, because i am using android 5.x - without mobile connections! I do not trust android!
[17:07] <popey> oh jeez
[17:07]  * ogra_ hugs popey
[17:07] <ogra_> ppor boy
[17:07] <ogra_> *poor
[17:10] <studio> ogra_, so orga_, you trust android, confirmed their "General terms and conditions of business" or?
[17:10] <popey> studio: well, you'll be happy to hear I have now run openvas8 against my ubuntu phone
[17:10] <ogra_> studio, android isnt the topic here at all
 popey, try do use for exp. OpenVAS8 ...
 studio: did you find anything interesting?
[17:11] <ogra_> <studio> popey, yes, for sure. but my primary question was not answered. what is controlling the mobile connection?
[17:11] <ogra_> studio, everyone reading along here is surely interested what that "for sure" means
[17:12] <ogra_> so you found some security isse on ubuntu using your scan tool ...
[17:12] <studio> ogra_, it was you, who told me that you do not like that android-stuff in the ubuntu device, aren't you ?
[17:12] <ogra_> what exactly did you find ? i'm sure jdstrand and the rest of the security team would like to know
[17:13] <dobey> oh no
[17:13] <studio> sure
[17:13] <ogra_> dobey, yeah :(
[17:15] <dobey> feels a bit like the scene in poltergeist 2
[17:15] <dobey> "theeeeeeeeeyyyyyyy'rrrreeee baaaaack"
[17:15] <ogra_> more like sleeping in nightmare on eml street i'd say
[17:15] <ogra_> *elm
[17:16] <dobey> well at least with a set of blades on his fingers, we could hope the ethernet/power cords would get accidentally cut :)
[17:16] <ogra_> lol
[17:16] <studio> No, feels a little bit, that the right do not know what the left hand is doing ...
[17:17] <dobey> sounds like a personal problem. you should call your doctor perhaps
[17:17] <dobey> at least i was at lunch for most of this so far
[17:18] <popey> studio: again, avoiding the question.
[17:20] <studio> dobey, in the moment i'm (and others) are happy with Android 5.x on the bq Aquris E4.5 /E5. The problem is "ubuntu touch" !
[17:20] <dobey> no, the problem is you.
[17:21] <ogra_> studio, WHAT DID YOU EXACLY FIND IN YOUR SECURITY SCAN ?
[17:21] <ogra_> probably caps help
[17:21] <studio> dobey, are you also reading "other boards" ?
[17:22] <dobey> ogra_: how could he scan ubuntu if he doesn't have it?
[17:22] <ogra_> dobey, he said that after ohe claimed he founnd "something" when scanning with a security tool his teacher asked him to use
[17:22] <ogra_> -o
[17:22] <dobey> lol
[17:23] <studio> ogra_, switched back to android, therefore i can't tell you ...
[17:23]  * ogra_ goes to watch TV ... better for my blood pressure
[17:23] <dobey> studio: therefore you don't belong in here, because you're not providing any helpful discussion about ubuntu. go to an #android channel if you want to talk about android
[17:24] <Captainheavy_> freenide app is nice!
[17:24] <ogra_> Captainheavy_, :)
[17:24] <Captainheavy_> *freenode
[17:24] <popey> Captainheavy_: keyboard, less so :)
[17:24] <ogra_> Captainheavy_, try the kiwi app too
[17:24] <studio> dobey, what do "YOU" mean with helpfull ?
[17:24] <Captainheavy_> Yeah, the submit button is a little small!
[17:25] <popey> studio: I have successfully run openvas8 against multiple ubuntu phones.
[17:25] <dobey> studio: i mean you're complaining about ubuntu on a phone not meeting your personal expectations, because we don't ship the ubuntu server image on phones
[17:25] <popey> studio: thanks for the tip of openvas8, had never heard of it
[17:26] <studio> popey, a very big thanks for testing it !!!
[17:26] <dobey> studio: hell, you're not even running ubuntu on your ubuntu phone. so why are you here?
[17:26] <Captainheavy_> I'll give Kiwi a go now.
[17:26] <studio> dobey, i am reading and comparing ...
[17:27] <ogra_> the ubuntu IRC chat with the android IRC chat ?
[17:27] <ogra_> is that a social study ?
[17:28] <ogra_> now it all makes sense ... its a psychological experiment !
[17:28]  * mcphail LOVES finishing work and finding 10 pages of studio_ in his /lastlog!
[17:28] <ogra_> lol
[17:28] <mcphail> studio: how are you?
[17:28] <popey> haha
[17:28]  * popey goes to buy beer and nuts
[17:28] <popey> later skaters
[17:28] <dobey> studio: how can you possibly compare something which you don't actually have?
[17:28] <ogra_> popey, enjoy
[17:29] <studio> mcphail, i am fine, and you?
[17:29] <mcphail> studio: all the better for finding you here. What's bothering you today?
[17:30] <studio> as i told, i am not able to control the mobile connection as i want
[17:30] <mcphail> studio: I thought you dodn't have a connection at all?
[17:31] <studio> mcphail, why should to enable a mobile connection without controlling?
[17:31] <mcphail> studio: I can't parse that sentence. What do you mean?
[17:33] <studio> mcphail, how did you enable a connection, via 3g, through internet, without controlling that connection?
[17:34] <mcphail> studio: a data connection, you mean?
[17:34] <studio> yes
[17:34] <ogra_> you control it via network-manager ... network-manager talks to the driver, enables the connection and sets up the bit sand pieces
[17:35] <ogra_> exactly like on the desktop
[17:35] <studio> orga_, this is nonsens
[17:35] <mcphail> studio: As far as I know, the magic Ubuntu pixies which live in my phone arrange it for me. A man in my position has to learn to delegate
[17:35] <ogra_> (but popey told you that multiple times)
[17:35] <ali1234> studio: you should not worry about android, it is open source. if anyone is monitoring you, they are doing it with the radio firmware
[17:35] <ogra_> hahahaha
[17:35] <ogra_> mcphail, you rock :)
[17:36] <ogra_> studio, the code is out there, feel free to look at it
[17:36] <Captainheavy2> This is much nicer!
[17:37] <Captainheavy2> I'll up the rating on the app store since 2.0 is compketely unwarranted
[17:37] <ogra_> yup ... and it actually re-connects if you dont leave the app in background for to long
[17:37] <studio> ogra_, if it not nosens, please, how do i purge the "network-manager" and make my own connection to the 3G-Network?
[17:37] <dobey> studio: write something to replace network-manager and do it
[17:38] <dobey> studio: network-manager wraps ofono, i presume you also hate ofono, so you'll need something to replace it as well
[17:38] <Captainheavy2> File picker is nice too
[17:38] <ogra_> you write a tool that is like network-manager ... then you apt-get purge network-manager from your phone after you made it writable and install your tool instead
[17:38] <studio> dobey, how do i purge the network-manager?
[17:38] <Captainheavy2> Google is your friend
[17:38] <dobey> studio: you create your own custom image which doesn't include it
[17:39] <ogra_> dobey, ofono doesnt do the data stuff i think, it only turns the device on ... NM still does the IP stuff on top
[17:40] <ali1234> ogra_: since it's silly question time apparently, i have one. can i make a snappy core image using raspbian debs ie so that it will boot on a raspberry pi 1?
[17:40] <studio> dobey, ok! where do i find the full sources to make an image for for exp. the bq E5.0?
[17:40] <dobey> ogra_: i think it does set up the routes, because there was some race condition between ofono and n-m when switching between cell/wifi, at one point
[17:40] <ali1234> more generally, can i just feed the snappy build scripts a different repo entirely?
[17:40] <dobey> studio: see the porting url in the channel topic.
[17:40] <ogra_> ali1234, well, you would need all the binaries we use inside the dore rootfs
[17:41] <studio> dobey, u are kidding, right?
[17:41] <ali1234> ogra_: if those binaries are in debs, i could dpkg-buildpackage them on raspbian?
[17:41] <ogra_> ali1234, meaning specifically the "snappy" binary ...
[17:41] <ogra_> probably
[17:42] <ogra_> no idea if there is go in debian ... snappp yis written in go and mmost likely has version requirements
[17:42] <dobey> studio: no. it is the guide on how to build images. since an image already exists for your device, it's less work, but you're going to have to create your own tarball to use for building the final image
[17:42] <ogra_> ali1234, https://launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/+archive/ubuntu/image ...
[17:42] <ali1234> i would expect debian has go... it's pretty popular these days, no?
[17:42] <ogra_> btw, we should probably tallk in #snappy :)
[17:42] <ali1234> oh yes
[17:42] <ogra_> the question is if it has the right version
[17:43] <studio> dobey, you can build a kernel, but no full image ...
[17:43] <Captainheavy2> Has the slow keyboard input across apps been noted at all?
[17:43] <dobey> studio:  you need more than a kernel to port ubuntu to another device
[17:43] <ogra_> Captainheavy2, i havent seen slow input ... so probably not ...
[17:44] <dobey> the porting guide tells you what to do. if you can't follow the guide, then you can't build your own image. so you can stop asking questions about how to do something for which documentation is clearly present, and has been given to you to use
[17:44] <studio> dobey, i need to "port" "ubuntu touch" to an "ubuntu touch" device" ????
[17:45] <Captainheavy2> Happens occasionally, not sure why, it looks like an input buffer isn't being guven processing time thensuddenly it is
[17:45] <mcphail> studio: why would it be ubuntu touch? You wouldn't be building Ubuntu touch. You'd be buildin "studio touch", if that's not a bit too creepy
[17:46] <dobey> studio: you need to follow the directions plainly given to you, to create your own custom image. what you will have will no longer be ubuntu. so calling it ubuntu would be wrong
[17:46] <dobey> studio: the guide is just a guide
[17:46] <mcphail> studio: If it is any help, I'd love to test your build
[17:46] <dobey> asking people in here to repeat everything that's already in the guide, to tell you how to do what you want, is rude
[17:46] <studio> mcphail, where are the sources to build an own image for an bq Aquaris E4.5 / E5.0 ?
[17:47] <mcphail> studio: no idea. Haven't tried to build "mcphail touch".
[17:47] <dobey> studio: rtfm.
[17:48] <studio> dobey, what means " RTFM " ?
[17:48] <dobey> studio: read the friggin manual.
[17:49] <studio> dobey, i thought "Ubuntu Touch" is open source ...
[17:49] <mcphail> studio: have you built a fork of AOSP for your device? How did you get on?
[17:50] <mcphail> studio: I'd _love_ to try your phone distro. It'd be the most secure phone OS ever.
[17:50] <dobey> studio: stop trolling and read the manual. it tells you exactly what you need to know
[17:56] <studio> dobey: "studio: stop trolling" ... did you really mean i am "trolling"? or i am just telling questions ...?
[17:57] <dobey> studio: asking the same stuff over and over again even though you've been given the ansers, is trolling.
[17:57] <mcphail> studio: don't ever stop trolling. That's why I love you
[17:58] <dobey> making comments like "i thought 'ubuntu touch' is open source ..." is trolling
[17:58] <ogra_> dobey, "not the hardware is the problem, the OS is" ;)
[17:58] <studio> mcphail, dobey, did you ever asked yourself, that you do dot have an answer?
[17:58] <dobey> ogra_: the lack of whisky in my abode, is the problem
[17:58] <ogra_> one of my favorite studio sentences today i think ...
[17:59] <ogra_> dobey, yeah, same here
[17:59] <dobey> studio: we gave you thousands of answers
[17:59] <dobey> studio: your ignorance towards them, is trolling.
[17:59] <k1l_> studio: hi, i think we had enough discussions now, that your way of "just asking questions" is not working on irc. so please stay on the "ask one time and accept the answer" rule and dont try to "motivate" the others with telling them how they work sucks
[18:00] <mcphail> studio: The thing that makes me sad is that I fell my love is not reciprocated. I ask you questions, you don't answer. Can't you see you're breaking my heart?
[18:01] <ogra_> :'-|
[18:01] <ogra_> such touching words
[18:01]  * mcphail pushes away ogra_'s handkerchief. He needs to be alone right now
[18:01] <popey> studio love is unrequited love
[18:01] <dobey> poor mcphail :-?
[18:02] <studio> k1l_, i'd like to do that, but i have still no answer about an IDS/IPS on "ubuntu touch" !
[18:02] <mcphail> studio: what does Iain Duncan Smith have to do with Ubuntu touch?
[18:02] <studio> IDS = wiki!
[18:02] <ogra_> mcphail, he wants to get in touch with Irina Patty Smith ... his cousin !
[18:03] <mcphail> aah. But the phone pixies won't make the connection??
[18:03] <ogra_> but there is a slash between them !
[18:03] <dobey> mcphail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCUCgYMVFJY
[18:03] <k1l_> studio: ask one time and accept the answer. right now no one seems to be interessted in giving correct answers since you were too annoying with your behaviour before
[18:04] <studio> k1l_, isn't it a shame?
[18:04] <dobey> it's a damn shame
[18:04] <mcphail> dobey: that is _beautiful_
[18:04] <dobey> haha
[18:04] <ogra_> lol
[18:05] <mcphail> Anyway, rain is off so I'm off to the shops. Sorry for straying so far off topic
[18:05] <studio> how, from the developers can tell "Ubuntu Touch" is Ubuntu? it is not !
[18:06] <dobey> there is no such thing as "ubuntu touch"
[18:06] <dobey> there is only ubuntu
[18:06] <dobey> and zuul
[18:06] <ogra_> and goser !
[18:06] <studio> dobey, it is a fake!
[18:06]  * dobey goes to register the Zuulbuntu distro in launchpad
[18:07] <ogra_> dobey, you might get copyright issues with zul actually
[18:07] <dobey> studio: this is trolling.
[18:08] <studio> dobey, for sure, try "sudo /bin/bash" and "passwd"!
[18:08] <dobey> studio: you asked a question and were given an answer. just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean the answer is going to change
[18:08] <dobey> studio: no
[18:08] <k1l_> studio: you are talking about stuff you dont have a clue. and people are annoyed by you attacking others for their work just because you dont know how the technic works. right now you are again attacking others work for no reason.
[18:08] <studio> no? you know why?
[18:09] <k1l_> studio: running a bash doenst make a non-ubuntu to a ubuntu
[18:09] <dobey> studio: stop trolling. this line of questioning has been answered. if you continue repeating these same questions again, i will ask ops to have you banned from the channel, or worse.
[18:09] <dobey> studio: your continued spamming and trolling of this channel, is not appreciated.
[18:11] <studio> k1l_, could you please explain, because on on other "ubuntu distributuions" "sudo /bin/bash" followed by an "passwd" is working
[18:12] <ogra_> and why would you do that at all on any ubuntu ? instead of sudo -i ?
[18:12] <ogra_> just to open extra security attack verctors ?
[18:12] <dobey> !root | studio
[18:12] <studio> ogra_, this is NOT the question!
[18:13] <ogra_> studio, i totalyl dont care ... like you dont care if anyone answers you
[18:14] <studio> to set "root" a password is a long time known bug. So why do you not fix it?
[18:14] <dobey> studio: you can only answer a question, when you know what the question is.
[18:14] <dobey> it is not a bug
[18:14] <ogra_> never has been
[18:15] <studio> dobey, is it a feature?
[18:15] <ogra_> just read the wikipage he gave you
[18:15] <dobey> studio: the answers have been given to you multiple times. read them.
[18:17] <dobey> if the ubuntu on phones distribution is unsuitable to your claimed needs/desires, then you are more than welcome to create your own image, as has been suggested to you multiple times, by following the porting guide
[18:18] <k1l_> studio: last time now: dont repeat questions just because you dont like the answers already given and dont attack others for their work. that is pure destructive and we dont want such users in the ubuntu community
[18:20] <studio> k1l_, i din't get an answer about "https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shadow/+bug/1450880" so you want do "kick me" to ask "questions like that" ?
[18:21] <k1l_> studio: i will again ban you if you dont change your behaviour to that way we all behave in this community. you got enough warnings and kicks already. change your aggressive behaviour or go away
[18:22] <dobey> yes, you have been given an answer
[18:22] <studio> k1l_, you can "ban" what "you" want, the question is still open!
[18:22] <dobey> no it is not
[18:23] <dobey> your illiteracy does not change the answer
[18:23] <k1l_> studio: so now you can focus on scrolling up and look what answers were given already
[18:26] <ali1234> it's kind of funny that you think he was trolling
[18:26] <dobey> i don't think he was trolling. his intent is pretty clear
[18:27] <ali1234> i mean if i wanted to troll i could do a much better job than that
[18:27] <k1l_> ali1234: no one said he is a good troll ;p
[18:28] <dobey> indeed
[18:29] <k1l_> ali1234: the issue is that his ways of "just asking" over and over again and not getting the answers he wants  results in him badmouthing others work. so its just destructive.
[18:30] <dobey> he's trying to "shame" devs into building the thing *he* wants, rather than what is best for everyone
[18:30] <ali1234> ah, the "best for everyone line"
[18:31] <ali1234> "best for the majority" would perhaps be closer to the truth... i don't think anything can be the best for everyone
[18:31] <mhall119> ali1234: this isn't the first time we've been through this with him
[18:31] <ogra_> fine too
[18:32] <dobey> ali1234: the best compromise that most suits the needs of the target audience for the phone
[18:32] <ogra_> this goes probably on for a 3/4 year or even a year
[18:32] <dobey> yesh :(
[18:32] <ali1234> really, and you only just banned him??
[18:32] <dobey> he's been banned many times
[18:32] <ogra_> he was banned for the first month or so
[18:32] <mhall119> ali1234: technically he's only silenced right now
[18:33] <ogra_> then we decided to give him a chance and keep up with him
[18:33]  * ogra_ gave up on that quite a while ago til today ...
[18:33] <popey> anyway, moving on.
[18:33] <ogra_> +1
[18:34] <mhall119> ali1234: basically he demands help but does not accept it
[18:34] <ogra_> he doesnt demand help ... thats the point
[18:34] <ogra_> he demands that what we do is wrong wrong wrong ... *footstomp*
[18:34] <ogra_> :)
[18:35] <mhall119> well, the point is that he doesn't accept "Here's how you can do it your way"
[18:35] <dobey> the main issue is that he bought an ubuntu phone expecting it to be a raspberry pi 2 running ubuntu server
[18:36] <ali1234> i think the problem you have is that all the people who are willing to just accept whatever you think is best are also happy to accept whatever google and microsoft thinks is best
[18:36] <ogra_> dobey, he didnt buy an ubuntu phone
[18:36] <mhall119> ali1234: we're happy to tell people how to do things differently than what we want to do
[18:36] <ogra_> he bought an android phone and pushed ubuntu onto it
[18:36] <dobey> ogra_: i think he bought the E5 ubuntu edition maybe
[18:36] <ogra_> oh
[18:36] <ogra_> i missed that bit then
[18:37] <ali1234> mhall119: but those people are almost by definition never going to be satisfied... it's like the worst self-selected audience ever
[18:37] <ogra_> i thought he also bought the android version of it ... doing the same mistakes as with the 4.5
[18:37] <dobey> maybe. hard to be 100% sure though
[18:37] <mhall119> ali1234: which people, the ones who want things to work the way we've built them, or the ones that want things to work differently than we've built them?
[18:37] <ali1234> mhall119: the latter
[18:38] <mhall119> ali1234: that's why we don't built things for them :)
[18:38] <dobey> well, mostly they can be satisifed
[18:38] <mhall119> but, we do give them the ability to build things for themselves
[18:38] <ali1234> mhall119: yes, the question then arises, who *are* you building them for? people who are perfectly happy with windows and android?
[18:38] <dobey> making a chroot in the user home dir on a phone is not difficult
[18:38] <mhall119> ali1234: people who want an Ubuntu phone that works in a safe, sane way out of the box
[18:38] <dobey> ali1234: we're building for the general consumer market
[18:38] <dobey> not leet hax0r market
[18:39] <dobey> but leet hax0r market can build their own custom images that suit their needs, because ubuntu is open source
[18:39] <ali1234> dobey: i think that's the first time i've ever heard anyone admit that :)
[18:39] <popey> hah
[18:39] <dobey> all the tools and documentation are available
[18:40] <dobey> ali1234: i don't think i've seen/heard anyone talking about the ubuntu phone in a way that doesn't admit that, as far as marketing goes
[18:40] <k1l_> well, most 1337 h4xx0rs just want things done by others because they dont have the skills to do that themselves. just look at the average joe using backbox or kali linux.
[18:40] <ali1234> dobey: that's rather different than coming out and saying it directly, without marketing spin
[18:41] <ali1234> i mean you can read between the lines of every official announcement and know this
[18:41] <dobey> i don't think there's any between the lines
[18:41] <ali1234> but it's always seemed to me that the leadership is afraid/embarrassed to admit it outright
[18:41] <mhall119> ali1234: I think we've always said we target Ubuntu enthusiasts and developers, which is different from "leet hax0rs"
[18:41] <dobey> ubuntu has always been about bringing open source to the general conumser market
[18:42] <dobey> ie "linux for human beings"
[18:42] <ali1234> implying that "leet hax0r" are not human beings...
[18:42] <mhall119> just like we never targetd them on the desktop. We don't block them or put up obstacles, we just don't cater to their specific wants
[18:42] <mhall119> ali1234: implying that not all human beings are "leet hax0rs"
[18:43] <mhall119> s/leet hax0rs/redheads/
[18:43] <dobey> lol
[18:43] <dobey> linux for gingers ;)
[18:43] <dobey> aww, aq isn't here
[18:43] <mhall119> we don't specifically target redheads, but we don't block them anyway
[18:44] <ali1234> what would you do differently if you were specifically making a distribution for redheads?
[18:45] <mhall119> don't dig too deep into the analogy ali1234
[18:45] <mhall119> the point is that hackers are a subset of "human beings", and we don't target that specific subset, but rather the larger set that still includes them
[18:46] <ali1234> then you should say "linux for most human beings"
[18:46] <dobey> i would say i am closer to a machine, than i am to human beings
[18:46] <mhall119> it's a tagline ali1234
[18:46] <ali1234> exactly, it's marketing spin
[18:46]  * mhall119 can confirm, dobey is at least 60% machine
[18:46] <ali1234> nobody really knows what it means
[18:46] <dobey> no, it's generalization
[18:47] <ogra_> ali1234, it means that a computer illiterate person like my mom suddenly can use linux on her computer :)
[18:47] <dobey> "linux for human beings*" *may not be suitable for all members of homo sapien species
[18:47] <ali1234> it's true, my dad loves ubuntu
[18:47] <ogra_> at least that is waht it always meant to me :)
[18:48] <mhall119> an above-average inteligence chimpanzee could probably use it too, its just a tagline
[18:48] <mcphail> ali1234: the tagline wasn't for marketing. It was just an excuse to bundle naked pictures in the default install
[18:48] <dobey> it's true, my aibo loves ubuntu
[18:48] <mhall119> it's a guiding principle, it means we should try and make it useful to as many people as possible
[18:49] <mhall119> which affects both what we do, and what we don't do
[18:50] <popey> ali1234: does your dad use ubuntu or xubuntu out of interest?
[18:50] <ali1234> popey: ubuntu
[18:51] <ali1234> he had no prior experience at all
[18:51] <dobey> there is only zuulbuntu
[18:51] <popey> blimey
[18:51] <popey> windows user previously?
[18:51] <ali1234> all he knew before was excel and sage
[18:51] <ali1234> he could load them up on his own, as long you didn't move the icons
[18:51] <ali1234> he's retried now so no need for windows
[18:51] <popey> heh
[18:52] <ali1234> now he's on iplayer and stock market websites all the time
[18:52] <ali1234> he really took to it
[18:52] <ali1234> even found a bug in libreoffice
[18:52] <popey> yeah, it's funny how some do. I met a guy who only ever wanted firefox, skype and some online betting website.
[18:53] <popey> I've never heard from him since I installed it.
[18:53] <popey> his daughter tells me he still happily uses it
[18:53] <popey> No residual virus cleaning income for me!
[18:53] <ali1234> yeah... my mum uses windows cos she has this sewing software
[18:53] <ali1234> i dread supporting that machine
[18:54] <ali1234> it's all the same software... firefox, libreoffice... but her computer messes up 10x as much as my dad's
[18:54] <ali1234> even he started making jokes about how windows sucks
[18:56] <dobey> ali1234: will said sewing software not run under wine?
[18:56] <ali1234> no idea
[18:56] <ali1234> it has a hardware protection dongle
[18:57] <popey> erk
[18:57] <dobey> eww
[18:57] <dobey> should theoretically still work though
[18:58] <dobey> there's also some open source sewing software around
[19:05] <popey> hardware dongles need to die in a fire
[19:05] <popey> along with generated license keys
[19:07] <ali1234> this one actually has to be activated online
[19:08] <popey> that's worse
[19:08] <popey> I had a long argument with a software developer that it was unreasonable he forced customers to generate license keys on his site, he said he could forsee no problem.
[19:08] <popey> Then he retired, and none of his customers could generate keys.
[19:08] <popey> because he stopped paying for hosting
[19:09] <beuno> he retired, not his problem anymore!
[19:10] <zsombi_> kenvandine: sorry, dude, I was diving into the ListItem expansion storry too much, I just realized you were fighting the StateSaver cleanup issue again :)
[19:10] <zsombi_> but I see you managed to sort it out now...
[19:11] <kenvandine> zsombi_, yeah... dednick is working on it :)
[19:11] <kenvandine> only part of the fix we needed landed, qtmir is still coming
[19:12] <zsombi_> kenvandine: awesome!... I still need to complete the UriHandler part... some day...
[19:28] <k1l_> for the german guys interessted in further opinions of studio: https://ubuntuusers.de/user/duno/
[19:32] <dobey> oh, must register to see
[19:33] <TonyBoston> what are the bets for tomorrow release?
[19:34] <mcphail> TonyBoston: are you in the bq ghetto as well?
[19:40] <TonyBoston> mcphail, yup, can I help?
[19:41] <mcphail> TonyBoston: apparently nobody is getting the update until popey gets his
[19:41] <popey> hah
[19:42] <mcphail> TonyBoston: last I heard was it is due tomorrow, but who knows?
[19:43] <TonyBoston> mcphail, they told me tomorrow will be the release, if all goes well
[19:44] <mcphail> TonyBoston: bq seem to take quality control quite seriously, which is a good thing, I suppose
[19:45] <TonyBoston> pmcgowan said that I remember
[19:45] <TonyBoston> mcphail, true
[19:45] <mcphail> TonyBoston: I'd have thought they would be giving the automatic rubber stamp by now
[19:45] <popey> they have raised numerous bugs
[19:45] <popey> it's great, becaue they get feedback from their customers and pass that on to us
[19:45] <TonyBoston> mcphail, seriously I doidn't use the E5 anymore
[19:46] <popey> E5 is the one device I don't have :)
[19:46] <TonyBoston> don't
[19:46] <popey> hah
[19:46] <TonyBoston> its just to buggy and I guess its not the device itself
[19:46] <popey> I kinda want to collect them all
[19:46] <popey> its the same software as the e4.5 and mx4
[19:46] <popey> very little differs
[19:46] <TonyBoston> so I am waiting for fixes to come
[19:47] <mcphail> TonyBoston: the bugs are annoying, but I had to spend a bit of time with android a couple of weeks ago and was glad to get back to Ubuntu
[19:47] <TonyBoston> mcphail, I have a blackberry for everyday use
[19:48] <TonyBoston> won't change that
[19:48] <mcphail> TonyBoston: I have never actually used a blackberry. My previous employer tried to get me to use one of the old ones, but I needed a bit of email distance from them
[19:49] <TonyBoston> you should try a newer one
[19:50] <mcphail> TonyBoston: they do look quite nice
[19:51] <mcphail> TonyBoston: blackberry fans tend to be very passionate about their phones
[19:51] <mcphail> TonyBoston: it is a good community
[19:51] <TonyBoston> brb
[19:52] <syntax_error> Oo
[19:56] <dobey> popey: we should get a glass case in the office and place one of every OE device shipping with ubuntu in it, like google has for android in their offices
[19:56] <popey> true
[19:56] <nik90> popey: why aren't you on #ubuntu-app-devel?
[19:57] <popey> netsplit
[19:57] <nik90> popey: anyway, bartosz fixed the stopwatch timezone scenario you raised during the meeting ;)
[19:57] <popey> oooh!
[19:58] <nik90> we now use UTC time :P since it stays constant.
[19:58] <nik90> should push this improvement over to mzanetti's app..he will like it.
[20:03] <popey> nik90: can you really not see me in #ubuntu-app-devel?
[20:04] <nik90> popey: I don't see you listed in the user list, but can see your messages.
[20:04] <popey> odd
[20:04] <nik90> popey: probably just polari being buggy
[20:04] <popey> kk
[20:04] <popey> there was a few netsplits earlier
[20:05] <nik90> I'm going to restart the irc client and see what happens
[21:22] <taiebot> Hey i have a funny bug anyone wants to reproduce before reporting it?  This might eat your phone data. Ubuntu phone hangs up  after 1h00 of call.  Yesterday my phone call stopped looking at the log info it stopped after 01:00:00 this looks very suspicious..
[21:25] <mcphail> taiebot: are you sure it wasn't your operator who disconnected you after one hour?
[21:26] <mcphail> taiebot: are you on an unlimited plan?
[21:26] <taiebot> mcphail: i usually never call for that long and not sure i want to use my data allowance to solve this
[21:28] <mcphail> taiebot: I've had incoming calls lasting > 1 hour, but don't think I've made any outgoing calls of that length on the phone
[21:28]  * mcphail isn't much of a conversationalist
[21:29] <taiebot> mcphail:  did not think it could be the operator but yeah it was definitely triggered as the time of exactly 1h00 is so supicious
[21:30] <mcphail> taiebot: some unlimited plans have terms such as "calls are unlimited but you must reconnect after 1 hour". That might be the issue
[21:34] <dobey> taiebot: making a phone call uses your data?
[21:35] <taiebot> dobey: i meant my phone allowance
[21:35] <taiebot> dobey: 3h calls 300 text and 300mb / month
[21:36] <dobey> taiebot: your provider doesn't have an automated info # you can call that doesn't count against your time?
[21:37] <taiebot> dobey: i do not really know they send me a text when i am going to run over the allowance ( which rarely happens for calls)
[22:08] <popey> taiebot: which provider?
[22:09] <popey> taiebot: i know (for example) the free giffgaff to giffgaff calls only last up to an hour
[22:10] <taiebot> popey vectone bad one following reviews posted by other people  http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4397463
[22:11] <popey> WHO!?
[22:30] <taiebot> popey vectone mobile http://www.vectonemobile.co.uk/
[23:52] <ali1234> vectone? i've literally never heard of them, and their website doesn't work...


 @Sick_Rimmit What would any proceeds be paid to? The Ubuntu community fund, or Kubuntu account?
 Good question, I feel it should be the Kubuntu account, but I will make sure to ask.
 @Sick_Rimmit, So do I, quite strongly. To be clear, I mean the one that Jonathan Riddell still administers.
[16:09] <Mamarok> yep, should definitely go the the Kubuntu account
 @RikMills needs some new hardware to build cool stuff on.
[19:53] <valorie> if there was any public accounting, I'd be fine with it going to the ubuntu community fund
[19:53] <valorie> however, there is zero or close to it
[19:53] <valorie> I ask for close $2000 each year for airfare and hotels
[19:54] <valorie> and have not been turned down yet
 Hello council.. Today we concluded a call in regard to the Kubuntu laptop. Canonical are providing MSM the company proposing to sell the laptop, with a trademark agreement.
 I have been working with Mike from MSM to draft a short term agreement, which I have currently as a google document, which I will post a link for shortly.
 I have left the details of the laptop from pages 3 onwards for easy reference, however I would see these becoming two separate documents prior to any authorisation by the council.
 https://docs.google.com/document/d/12PttOinOAuWETQsyNR3AJAqMbvGJfZ24YMH9_3rmBZ4/edit?usp=sharing
[21:23] <valorie> sounds like a good idea to split them
[21:24] <valorie> thank so much for taking the initiative in this, Rick
[21:24] <valorie> wow, $48 each
[21:24] <valorie> that seems generous
[21:26] <valorie> first point under "Reasoning" Vasty > vastly
 These are expensive laptops, that are designed as direct competitors the $3400 MacBook Pro
 👀
[21:26] <valorie> "The MBP keyboard has 0.2mm of travel and costs $800 to replace if dust blocks a key" -- this is a sales point?
 MBP = MacBook Pro
[21:27] <valorie> oh
[21:27] <valorie> it should say MacBook Pro each time
[21:27] <valorie> really
 Its a competitor critique, although personally I see no point in making the comparison
[21:28] <valorie> well, it should spell out MacBook each time imo
 Yes, I agree I'll Global replace
[21:30] <valorie> hmmm, their first linked doc says "Kubuntu is an Ubuntu derivative"
[21:30] <valorie> we are not a derivative
 Ooo let me look at that
[21:30] <valorie> https://mmikowski.github.io/k19-10-guide/
[21:31] <valorie> nice guide to setting up a VM though
 Agreed
[21:38] <valorie> that is a very complete guide though, although I disagree with some of the choices
[21:39] <valorie> and he has some typos
[21:39] <valorie> copius highly currated software > copious highly curated
[21:39] <valorie> for instance
 Could fork it, and issue a PR 😃
 Some of the objective specifics are too vague, I'll comment later
 Thanks @tsimonq2