[12:13] <KenSentMe> ompaul: you said yesterday or so that you would help getting a gpg key. Can you help me with it?
[12:14] <ompaul> KenSentMe, I ran a class with it - it is rather late here can you get me when I have energy in my morning or eariler in my evening - I was about to head to bed
[12:14] <ompaul> KenSentMe, I say ran a class
[12:14] <ompaul> heh
[12:14] <ompaul> KenSentMe, lets try it quickly if problems then in the morning?>
[12:15] <ompaul> KenSentMe, join me in #signing-101
[01:11] <adamant1988> hello all
[06:04] <nixternal> hey Rinchen!!!
[06:06] <Rinchen> Howdy Sir
[06:06] <nixternal> how is everything in Colorado tonight?
[06:07] <Rinchen> I was scanning my email list quickly tonight looking for 'eye-popers' and about fell off my chair when suddenly I saw [OOo-Emerngecy!]
[06:07] <Rinchen> with the correct spelling of course
[06:07] <nixternal> haha
[06:07] <Rinchen> Turns out we have a semi-secret emergency list for bug fixes
[06:07] <nixternal> ahhh
[06:08] <nixternal> whew..close one ey
[06:08] <Rinchen> yeah..I was trying to figure out what that exactly meant
[06:08] <Rinchen> because it was sent by the community leader...
[06:08] <Bilange> Emerngecy, sounds like pregnacy to me :)
[06:09] <nixternal> lol
[07:03] <Rinchen> Nix
[07:03] <Rinchen> and Matt
[07:04] <Rinchen> Do you remember the Cows I sent?
[07:04] <Rinchen> I can beat that now. I soiled myself laughing on the 2nd half of this:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBSLMGNHuGM
[07:06] <Rinchen> I haven't laughed so hard in years
[07:20] <Madpilot> cool publicity: Ubuntu made BoingBoing! http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/29/mark_pilgrims_list_o.html
[07:22] <Bilange> Rinchen, that was worth the wait :)
[07:23] <Madpilot> Rinchen, sorry for accusing you of spamming - but I've had some very odd things show up in nondescript URLs via IRC... :)
[07:23] <Rinchen> It's all good. Everyone thinks I'm a big jerk anyway :-)
[07:23] <Rinchen> Bil...yeah, I had to go wake up the wife and she left in tears as well
[07:24] <Rinchen> Mad: Flip side to BoingBoing is this article which has me somewhat worried:  http://software.newsforge.com/software/06/06/23/1728205.shtml?tid=150
[07:26] <Rinchen> Bil, what sent me over the edge was the afterburners
[07:29] <Madpilot> Rinchen, hmm, that is a bit worrying... hopefully someone will get RMS to take his meds again, and the FSF will relax a bit
[07:31] <Rinchen> The part that confuses me, especially with Mepis, is ... we use dep and deb-src  so... ????
[07:32] <Rinchen> The sync part that is mentioned is normal parent-child ...just like Debian-Ubuntu
[07:32] <Rinchen> Surprised Turner pushed it though...
[07:32] <Bilange> sorry, i have to go sleep.. but ill sleep with a smile on my face :P
[07:32] <Rinchen> Have a good one!
[07:33] <Bilange> I dont know if this will work for you, but I just ripped the advertised site so you can grab a local copy of this prank: http://dl1.dumpalink.com/media/Kxfjwu7AY5jg/BrBZTYx1FM3J.wmv
[07:34] <Bilange> alright... cheers :)
[07:34] <Rinchen> works!
[07:34] <Rinchen> I don't normally look at these things but I saw a link off digg
[07:34] <Rinchen> and coming from a Ski community it was grand
[08:33] <Rinchen> Hey, what did I miss? THe forums are down with "This forum has been temporarily closed, due to complaints lodged against Jenda Vancura."
[08:35] <Birthday_kgoetz> what forum?
[08:35] <Madpilot> ubuntupeople
[08:35] <Birthday_kgoetz> hm
[08:36] <Rinchen> yeah
[08:37] <Rinchen> Sure there was some complaints on the list (my timing gripe included) but nothing I read would have warranted that msg
[08:37] <Rinchen> or that action
[08:37] <Rinchen> fwiw, Jenda has done a lot of work (hence him gaining full membership recently)
[08:38] <Rinchen> Admittedly I often disagree with him on points but I think it's due to diversity and perspective vs Jenda=Evil
[08:38] <Birthday_kgoetz> i'v seen lots of what he does, and do stuff with him ocasionaly
[08:39] <Birthday_kgoetz> i'm here because he asked me to check it out and help ;)
[08:39] <Rinchen> Yeah, he's one of the motivated folks...hate to dampen that in any manner.
[08:41] <ormiret> I think the forums were taken down before the renewed activity on the ML but I have no idea what caused it
[08:41] <Birthday_kgoetz> they were taken down in the last week, because google has a cache from teh 23rd
[08:42] <Rinchen> The only issue on those forums that I was aware of was the code was downlevel and getting spambotted
[08:43] <Rinchen> I don't mind the forums being close actually....because I think our attention should be more greatly focused on the wiki. My grip is with the reason.
[08:43] <Rinchen> ch/grip/gripe  ...but you got my meaning
[08:44] <ormiret> yeah, would be good to have an explanation of what is going on
[08:45] <Rinchen> Not to exagerate the situation but does that mean if Mad says "Hey, that Rinchen fella is a jerk." ...then that will result in the entire marketing group's forums going offline? :-)
[08:46] <Rinchen> Doesn't seem on the level to me.
[08:46] <Rinchen> but I'm just a helper bee :-)
[08:46] <ormiret> The official stuff should be safe from that- it will only be taken down after the CC says so
[08:46] <ormiret> Who was hosting the forums?
[08:48] <Rinchen> Jenda told me at one point but I have completely forgotten.
[08:48] <Rinchen> It was someone doing our team a favour
[08:48] <Rinchen> ..because of that dispute regarding the official forums...which was then brought up a day or two ago on the list.
[08:55] <Rinchen> lol... did you guys see the pony on the Fridge yet?  Did you click it? :-)
[08:57] <ormiret> :)
[08:58] <ormiret> There's lots of similar things posted to fark but I hadn't seen it on the fridge
[09:16] <jsgotangco> no pony for you
[09:22] <Birthday_kgoetz> Ubuntu is also Yoruba for Atis,(Annona squamosa-Sugar Apple) my favorite fruit. <- from some random website
[09:22] <Rinchen> hmmm
[09:22] <Rinchen> I'm adding that to my definition page
[09:23] <Birthday_kgoetz> ubuntu: sugar apples for human beings :)
[09:23] <Madpilot> "Ubuntu" is also an ancient African word meaning "I am <unprintably> sick of compiling Gentoo" ;)
[09:24] <Birthday_kgoetz> or 'i cant install debian' ;)
[09:24] <Madpilot> possibly that too
[09:24] <nixternal> [02:23]  <Madpilot> "Ubuntu" is also an ancient African word meaning "I am <unprintably> sick of compiling Gentoo" ;)
[09:24] <Rinchen> You know it's not REALLY linux unless you have to spend 6 days compiling openoffice
[09:25] <Birthday_kgoetz> lol
[09:25] <nixternal> i remember in 1994 compiling on a 386 a 1.x kernel w/o a gui...took just over 11 days i think
[09:25] <Madpilot> nixternal, that's not original, I've seen it in a number of places, in different versions :)
[09:25] <nixternal> great Madpilot you ruined a great quote by letting me know its an imposter ;)
[09:26] <Madpilot> I think one of the Canonical guys invented the phrase
[09:27] <Birthday_kgoetz> jdub afaik
[09:28] <Rinchen> hmm I just found another marketing effort for Ubuntu
[09:28] <Rinchen> http://www.funnycoolstuff.com/2005/11/18/sexy-ubuntu-linux-poster/
[09:28] <Rinchen> it came up searching for the imposter phrase
[09:29] <Madpilot> there's a whole series of those posters, mocking a different distro per poster :)
[09:29] <Rinchen> I am sooo out of touch. I guess marriage does that to you.
[09:30] <Madpilot> http://www.flickr.com/photos/glagla/sets/1177687/ <-- top link from a google of "Linux posters" - this isn't all of them, though
[09:31] <Madpilot> the Gentoo one is... well... http://www.flickr.com/photos/glagla/54320162/in/set-1177687/
[09:31] <jsgotangco> this is quite old during warty hehehe
[09:31] <jsgotangco> when we had the half naked people cover
[09:31] <Madpilot> yeah, not new, but still funny :)
[09:31] <jsgotangco> yeah heh
[09:32] <Rinchen> lol ... did you guys hear about Alky the wine replacement???  http://www.alkyproject.com/
[09:32] <Birthday_kgoetz> i think that cover converted more ppl then any other effort :)
[09:33] <jsgotangco> i love the one for debian and gentoo
[09:35] <Rinchen> ok, off to bed. cheers folks.
[09:44] <Birthday_kgoetz> later all
[10:21] <darkmatter_> bahhh
[10:22] <darkmatter_> how are you doing GazzaK?
[10:22] <GazzaK> yeah, i'm okay, home alone till sunday, as partner has buggered off to London :(
[10:23] <darkmatter_> poo
[10:23] <darkmatter_> heh
[05:31] <matthewrevell> mdke; Just replied to your list question about the contact point.
[05:36] <mdke> saw it
[05:36] <mdke> and replied :)
[05:36] <matthewrevell> cool :)
[05:37] <mdke> I haven't caught up on the list at all though...
[05:38] <mdke> seems people had a problem with being removed from the launchpad team? I think that's a pity, there is no need for that to be a big deal
[05:40] <Bigtoe> i would agree that it is no big deal
[05:40] <Bigtoe> if i were idle for an extended period of time i would almost expect to be removed
[05:41] <mdke> I have to say that i have a similar view about this to the view on the team contact
[05:41] <mdke> it's important to identify "why" there is a launchpad team
[05:41] <mdke> launchpad teams work well when they are the basis for access control of some kind, but are terrible for gathering groups of people, because they don't provide a mailing list
[05:43] <matthewrevell> mdke: Obviously I'm new to this but I think LP team offers us visibility within the Ubuntu world and an opportunity to track our projects with Blueprint. Not sure how important the first is, I s'ppose we'll find out :)
[05:43] <mdke> the latter is definitely a good point
[05:43] <matthewrevell> As for being removed from the LP team, I think people were upset that it was discussed on the ML first.
[05:43] <mdke> s/was/wasn't?
[05:44] <matthewrevell> mdke Sorry, yes
[05:44] <mdke> right
[05:44] <mdke> well, that's fair
[05:44] <matthewrevell> Although there were one or two people that were unhappy that it happened at all.
[05:44] <mdke> but when a person is removed, there is a message attached, if that message was relatively tactful, it should have been ok
[05:44] <matthewrevell> I think it's just the teething troubles of a new set of people becoming active in a relatively dormant group.
[05:44] <mdke> yes
[05:45] <mdke> i must say, it's nice to see things kicking off in a positive way
[05:45] <matthewrevell> mdke: I didn't see the message but Jenda mentioned that he had sent something and he's keen to make people feel welcome.
[05:45] <matthewrevell> Marketing's kinda my thing. I mean, I love writing docs but I think I can help more with the marketing stuff at the mo.
[05:46] <matthewrevell> There are loads of great docs people, not so many people have been working on the marketing side.
[05:46] <mdke> hopefully you'll have time for a bit of both *g*
[05:46] <matthewrevell> :-) Yeah, I hope so.
[05:48] <matthewrevell> Doc writing is my day job.
[05:48] <Kamping_Kaiser> :o
[05:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'm about to convert Bettong.orgs traning docs to docbook, then i'll have some time again :). its going to take forever :(
[05:52] <matthewrevell> bettong.org?
[05:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> group i do volunteer work with
[05:52] <matthewrevell> Cool.
[05:52] <matthewrevell> I have to admi that I've not used DocBook.
[05:52] <matthewrevell> Looks pretty straightforward tho'.
[05:53] <Kamping_Kaiser> we do some INGOTS desktop training, so i'll be Docbooking the traning materials
[05:53] <Kamping_Kaiser> took me a while to get used to it :)
[08:56] <adamant1988> hello
[09:03] <nixternal> hello adamant1988
[09:03] <adamant1988> how's everyone today?
[09:03] <nixternal> tired...hungry ;)
[09:03] <nixternal> oh..and busy ;)
[09:03] <adamant1988> me too
[09:03] <adamant1988> I work two jobss =\
[09:04] <nixternal> i work two ;) many jobs
[09:04] <nixternal> hehe
[09:04] <adamant1988> haha, are you on the marketing team?
[09:04] <nixternal> actually..i dont' work..who am i kidding
[09:04] <nixternal> yes adamant1988..im here on the team..physically...gone half the time mentally
[09:04] <adamant1988> haha. I was thinking about joining
[09:05] <adamant1988> I don't know what kind of responsibilities I would have though.
[09:05] <nixternal> you would have the responsibilites that you choose..that is the freedom of the Ubuntu community...you take on the responsibilities you can tackle and handle
[09:05] <nixternal> not everybody can do everything, but the smallest contribution equals the largest contribution
[09:06] <adamant1988> well... I have some experience; I thought I might be able to help out some.. (2 accounting classes, 1 marketing class, 1 managment class, 1 economics class, 1 Business law class)
[09:07] <nixternal> hmmm...sounds awfully familiar to the classes i took for my one business degree
[09:07] <adamant1988> probably
[09:07] <adamant1988> they were through a college.
[09:08] <nixternal> marketing OpenSource however is way different then what they teach in college..at least here where i am at
[09:08] <adamant1988> I could imagine
[09:08] <adamant1988> I never bothered with the marketing technique
[09:09] <adamant1988> I free-form all my ideas.   My "style" is to use social and demographic info and then use that to produce a series of ideas and narrow them down to one I think suits my needs best.
[09:09] <adamant1988> Apparently, this takes too long for most classes to bother with.
[09:09] <nixternal> a lot of people say that they don't know anything about marketing, or how they would go about it..however just simple word of mouth advertising is marketing...everyone does some form of marketing everyday, they just don't realise it
[09:10] <nixternal> i know exactly what you mean adamant1988
[09:10] <adamant1988> we started a business in my class once, I was 'kicked' off the marketing team for not working within the project guidelines
[09:11] <nixternal> i wouldn't say that to loudly in here ;)
[09:11] <adamant1988> all I wanted to do was a series of surveys =\
[09:11] <adamant1988> it would have added an extra week, maybe two.  to the 'goal'.
[09:12] <nixternal> that is the nice thing about here...if you want to do surveys do them...present them to the team and then go from there...that is what i like..the FREEDOMS you have here
[09:12] <nixternal> well our goal is to fix bug #1
[09:12] <adamant1988> Windows.
[09:12] <adamant1988> Bug #1 will fix itself shortly.
[09:13] <nixternal> i don't think so..as it seems that bug gets larger and larger every day
[09:13] <adamant1988> I'd say windows has just a few more generations left before it starts losing significant market share.
[09:13] <adamant1988> 2-3 ish.
[09:13] <nixternal> oh ya..without a doubt
[09:14] <adamant1988> It's not because of linux or anything else, although I think linux will fill in the gap.
[09:14] <nixternal> i feel however, before you can get to #1, there needs to be #2, #3 and so on
[09:14] <nixternal> like mac..
[09:14] <adamant1988> Mac won't even be number 1 majority
[09:14] <adamant1988> ever*
[09:15] <nixternal> never will be..but they are larger then us currently
[09:15] <nixternal> in order to get to #1, we have to get past #2 and so on
[09:15] <adamant1988> you have to look at the economy though.  The price of living is going up.  people don't have the money to spend on extras
[09:16] <adamant1988> like oh say... antivirus, malware detectors, liscensing fees etc.
[09:17] <nixternal> oh ya
[09:17] <adamant1988> that'll hurt windows soon, because it's driven by the economy.
[09:17] <nixternal> that is all part of the marketing ploys being used too
[09:17] <nixternal> we just need to figure out a way to utilize them in the correct fashion
[09:18] <adamant1988> YEah, so pretty soon people will be screaming for an alternative.
[09:18] <nixternal> in the Linux world, marketing is its largest downfall
[09:18] <nixternal> as nobody has marketed Linux correctly yet
[09:18] <adamant1988> that's because there isn't a linux world, it has no center.
[09:18] <nixternal> granted red hat did a good job and what not
[09:18] <nixternal> but they are loosing their share
[09:18] <adamant1988> linux's greatest flaw is part of it's strength.
[09:19] <nixternal> i hate the fact that novell took over suse, but it just might help out the Linux community eventually
[09:19] <adamant1988> it's not all under one roof, so there's no 'one voice' for the linux community.
[09:19] <nixternal> i was looking over FC's marketing campaign, and it seems to all fit into the logo..which was kind of neat
[09:20] <adamant1988> and any changes that happen in linux happen slowly as the different sections of linux adopt the changes
[09:21] <nixternal> there are definately a lot of hurdles, but I believe as these communities start getting larger and larger, stronger and stronger, we will some day succeede
[09:22] <adamant1988> Honestly, if the linux communities would get together and create some kind of an organization to speak for linux, and to 'control' linux democratically, think the U.N of linux... you would see a lot of progress quickly.
[09:23] <adamant1988> I don't want to see a single unified distro... that kills linux's charm but IMO there needs to be a center for the linux world....
[09:23] <nixternal> well..i remember back in the 90's that was the whole idea of the "LInux International" organisation with MadDog..but i have no clue whatever happened with it
[09:23] <nixternal> li.org just isn't doing what it used to
[09:23] <adamant1988> even the U.N wasn't created on the first try.
[09:24] <nixternal> i remember when organizations looked at linux as "oh wow, this could be dangerous, we should fear this competition"...granted that was when the PC era really started booming
[09:24] <adamant1988> microsoft is still really afraid.
[09:25] <adamant1988> they once refered to linux as a virus, even.  That propogates itself growing larger every day.
[09:25] <adamant1988> They couldn't have picked a more perfect comparison in my opinion.
[09:25] <nixternal> they still do..
[09:26] <nixternal> but with the release of Vista, it is either going to rule the world, or blow up in their face..and currently the "blowing up in their face" example seems to be proving itself, as the beta's have been horrid
[09:26] <adamant1988> Linux v windows isn't david vs goliath.   It's goliath gets a really nasty bug he can't seem to shake off and it just gets more prominent and deadly as it mutates.
[09:27] <nixternal> but you read over anand, hardocp, maximum pc, cpu, tech edge magazines, which happen to be the hottest pc magazines ever...it is all "we can't wait for vista, ms is god"
[09:27] <nixternal> they all like to say, if you want to live on the dangerous side, try linux...however, i have yet to get a virus, spyware, or malware
[09:28] <nixternal> i haven't had to use ms now in months..i have made a 100% switch
[09:28] <adamant1988> have you ever heard of planned obsolecence ?
[09:28] <nixternal> and a majority of my clients have microsoft networks...and i can still admin them w/o ms
[09:28] <adamant1988> spelling's probably not right.  on that either.
[09:28] <nixternal> han't heard of it, but it sounds good to me ;)
[09:28] <adamant1988> it's the idea behind windows
[09:28] <nixternal> oh ya
[09:29] <nixternal> it is obsolete by the time you get it
[09:29] <nixternal> but...all hardware and software i dont' care by who..is the same way
[09:29] <nixternal> that is good, and that is bad
[09:29] <adamant1988> it becomes obsolete very quickly and you're forced to upgrade.
[09:29] <adamant1988> windows does this in two ways though
[09:29] <adamant1988> small scale and big scale
[09:29] <adamant1988> big scale is a new generation of windows
[09:29] <nixternal> oh ya..and that is because they are in bed with so many manufacturers
[09:29] <adamant1988> and small scale is the registry.
[09:30] <nixternal> they are so far in bed that they got intel so sell cpu's to mac...why???  so mac can run windows
[09:30] <nixternal> but..as we are seeing, Ubuntu on mac ;)
[09:30] <adamant1988> they were smart, they built in a registry that degrades to nearly irreparable conditions.  they make a bundle on ms certifications and repair costs from that.
[09:31] <nixternal> i live in chicago...so mac dropped motorola support..and now i think the layoffs are going to be coming by the thousands soon
[09:31] <adamant1988> apple needs to do something about the prices of their hardware.
[09:31] <nixternal> they have been..they are dropping...as if you look at the specs of a macbook pro...you can't touch it via any other brand
[09:31] <adamant1988> so many people would switch if it weren't for the prices.
[09:32] <nixternal> we tried this out as a matter of fact the other night..and the macbook simply destroyed the others in specs and price combined
[09:32] <adamant1988> and you get that apple 'finish' to the product too.
[09:32] <adamant1988> apple is a great company
[09:32] <nixternal> you can get the processor and memory and hard drive specs right on..but they have that 17" that just kills the competition
[09:32] <adamant1988> but Microsoft can't do anything about them or linux.
[09:33] <nixternal> remember now..microsoft maintains a majority presence on the apple board
[09:33] <adamant1988> makes no difference
[09:33] <adamant1988> no one company owns linux
[09:33] <nixternal> remember old billy stopped them from bankruptcy many years ago
[09:33] <adamant1988> Microsoft can't legally destroy it's last known competition.
[09:33] <nixternal> oh and they won't
[09:34] <nixternal> but i guarantee that soon, you will have an OS choice with mac when you purchase
[09:34] <adamant1988> if macs start running windows be default they will have.
[09:34] <adamant1988> oh yeah, definitely
[09:34] <nixternal> tonyyarusso: where at in chicago are you?
[09:34] <tonyyarusso> nixternal: I'm not; my connection just gets routed through there.
[09:34] <nixternal> ahhh
[09:35] <nixternal> i seen the level3...they used to colo at our datacenter
[09:35] <adamant1988> but yeah... I give linux another 10 years following the cycle of adoption.
[09:35] <adamant1988> then it will be big
[09:36] <adamant1988> if not the biggest.
[09:36] <nixternal> i think with all the recent hype with Ubuntu, Gentoo, FC, and SuSe, it could be sooner then we might imagine
[09:36] <adamant1988> No
[09:36] <nixternal> i mean just the other day they were all spoken on BBCworld, and CNN
[09:36] <adamant1988> it would be
[09:36] <adamant1988> but Ubuntu is held back
[09:36] <tonyyarusso> nixternal: I think Level 3 is in some sort of partnership with Earthlink (my ISP)
[09:36] <adamant1988> which saddens me.
[09:36] <nixternal> ahhh..yes they are tonyyarusso
[09:36] <nixternal> why do you think Ubuntu is held back?
[09:37] <adamant1988> the ideals behind it stop it from being 'highly adoptable'
[09:37] <nixternal> there are some major distrobutions switching to the Ubuntu backend now
[09:37] <adamant1988> at least in the end-user respect
[09:37] <adamant1988> businesses won't care about things like DVDlibCSS
[09:37] <gnomefreak> if linux wants to make it in more homes as desktop use they need to ship with multimedia support and what i mean is they need to be "kings" of multimedia
[09:37] <nixternal> i think the greatest marketing effort that is available for Ubuntu is the entire Edubuntu distrobution for the schools
[09:37] <adamant1988> but end users will want 3d support and multimedia support out of the box.
[09:38] <adamant1988> end users will also want phone support for it
[09:38] <adamant1988> at least.
[09:38] <nixternal> however, in order to work that in, you have to be able to go against the Bill and Melinda Gates Fund..as they seem to be holding the market share for schools..and they are even a non-profit
[09:38] <nixternal> there is phone support for it
[09:38] <gnomefreak> ubuntu being fully free they will never pay to ship with that stuff
[09:38] <tonyyarusso> That's true - I don't really see Ubuntu as being as business-marketable as some others.
[09:38] <tonyyarusso> Home desktops though, sure.
[09:38] <adamant1988> What needs to happen is Ubuntu needs to offer a paid version.
[09:39] <nixternal> you have to remember also, Ubuntu is still somewhat of an infant, with a community that is growing
[09:39] <adamant1988> I don't care if they profit from the sales of the paid version, but it needs to be offered.
[09:39] <nixternal> according to RH, we are the largest growing community, and they are keeping their eye on us for the server market and what not
[09:39] <gnomefreak> doesnt that defeat the "fully free" atitude ubuntu has had from day 1?
[09:39] <nixternal> yup
[09:39] <adamant1988> not if it's an option gnomefreak...
[09:40] <tonyyarusso> Actually, I was talking to a friend and she said she wouldn't mind at all paying for Linux.  The idea being that she's so used to the idea that you have to pay for software that being free isn't really important to her.
[09:40] <nixternal> but then again gnomefreak, the whole free as in freedom, not free as in beer campaign comes to mind..even know i hate it
[09:40] <adamant1988> If Ubuntu says "look, you have to pay for these supports out of the box if you want them pre-installed, otherwise download the free version" then it's not a violation of the ideal
[09:40] <nixternal> i have paid for linux in the past..and would do it again
[09:40] <adamant1988> if ubuntu remains hard-edge free in both respects, I expect linspire to rise.
[09:40] <nixternal> there is something about $60 compared to $300 for an os
[09:40] <gnomefreak> nixternal: ubuntu is free in all ways is what the free in ubuntu is all about
[09:41] <tonyyarusso> Maybe there could be an Ubuntu derivative that is techically separate but is simply Ubuntu + stuff you have to pay for.
[09:41] <adamant1988> but then it wouldn't be serviceable by canonical
[09:41] <tonyyarusso> Maybe they could subcontract through Canonical?
[09:41] <Bigtoe> should it not be the hardware vendor that would be the one to install the os and charge a fee for the work?
[09:41] <nixternal> the options are there for corporate support via canonical..as i believe they have even opened up a new call center in canada just for it
[09:41] <tonyyarusso> As long as it's separate from Ubuntu, it can still be tied to Canonical all right.
[09:42] <adamant1988> yeah, but they are not going to service a 3rd party version of ubuntu
[09:42] <tonyyarusso> Bigtoe: Yes, if we can get hardware vendors installing it.
[09:42] <nixternal> oh no..they will service theirs, and thats it
[09:42] <adamant1988> exactly
[09:42] <adamant1988> that's why canonical needs to offer the paid version of ubuntu to see mass adoption
[09:42] <Bigtoe> i think that would be better than charging for the os
[09:42] <nixternal> Bigtoe: +1
[09:42] <adamant1988> otherwise, again, my money is on linspire.
[09:42] <nixternal> ;)
[09:42] <Bigtoe> local vendor charges for a service then charges for ongoing support
[09:43] <nixternal> me being an OEM, i install ubuntu on a system, I support it
[09:43] <Bigtoe> :)
[09:43] <nixternal> as a matter of fact..i have changed my pricing around to reflect using Ubuntu verses Microsoft
[09:43] <adamant1988> as long as you're certified that's awesome.
[09:44] <nixternal> instead of my typical $85/hr for MS, i charge $50/hr for Linux/Ubuntu support on site...that is if they use my hardware though
[09:44] <tonyyarusso> Okay, now here's another possibility:
[09:44] <nixternal> i don't charge to install the OS at all
[09:44] <nixternal> i just charge services..that way I don't have to charge tax..and 2 i don't have to worry about any types of infringements or law suits ;)
[09:45] <Bigtoe> solid plan there
[09:45] <nixternal> i have gotten 5 clients to switch to Ubuntu in the past week
[09:45] <adamant1988> What I see Ubuntu doing is offering an Ubuntu Home/multimedia/w/e edition.  They'll charge for it and make SURE that you know why they have to charge.  They'll also make sure you know there are alternatives.
[09:45] <tonyyarusso> Contract with some vendors and or just certified techs around the world that people can bring their Ubuntu disk and machine too, have that person charge for installing the multimedia stuff, and after that one time separate fee, it's still the same Ubuntu so servicable from that point on from Canonical.
[09:45] <nixternal> i almost have a huge transfer in the works..as my one client is sick of the virus attacks!!!
[09:45] <nixternal> lpi has the ubuntu certification now..however..i don't trust certifications at all
[09:46] <adamant1988> also I'd like to see Ubuntu pre-installed computers shipping with Cedega, WINE, and Crossover installed by default.
[09:46] <adamant1988> or shipping it in the OS like Xandros does.
[09:46] <nixternal> mcse, cisco, those are all solid..but i have various compTIA certs and they are all jokes...a+ is a joke...look at GeekSquad,,,they are a joke
[09:46] <tonyyarusso> Well, aren't Cedega and/or Crossover subscriptions, not purchase costs?
[09:46] <nixternal> a+ cert...aced both the softeare and hardware test in less then 15 minutes
[09:46] <nixternal> joke
[09:47] <nixternal> network+, linux+, security+...great basic certs
[09:47] <nixternal> however, they are still a joke
[09:47] <adamant1988> well gtg
[09:47] <adamant1988> work.
[09:47] <adamant1988> be back in a bit
[09:47] <nixternal> i think...any cert that you can get w/o hands-on experience is not good...which is what all the compTIA certs are.
[09:47] <nixternal> anyways..im with you..im gonna go get me an ice cream and get back to work
[09:48] <nixternal> great discussion though
[09:48] <nixternal> was fun ;)
[09:48] <Bigtoe> that was a good one


[03:17] <Strom_C> hey guys, sorry if this is the wrong channel, but I've been asking this question in #ubuntu all day and gotten no help:  What is the exact procedure that ubuntu uses to auto-determine video settings when starting the livecd, and is it possible to invoke that procedure post-install?  I'm trying to create a partition image which is fairly portable across machines.
[03:29] <Strom_C> I guess it's happy hour at the bar :)
[03:38] <jdong> or everyone is asleep :)
[03:39] <Strom_C> for some reason, I ddidn't expect all 172 people in here to be in russia
[03:39] <bddebian> Or doesn't know the answer ;-)
[03:40] <Strom_C> i'm surprised that no one knows the answer to this one
[03:51] <ScottK> Strom_C: Your best bet is to look at the source.  I don't know either.
[03:51] <Strom_C> ScottK: I've been grepping and googling and trying things for eighteen hours now
[03:52] <ScottK> Sorry I can't help.
[03:53] <Strom_C> thanks anyway :)
[03:53] <ScottK> Strom_C: The good news is that can only go on so long.
[03:53] <Strom_C> well, at least until you add minoxidil into the equation :D
[03:56] <jdong> Strom_C: sudo dpkg-reconfigure -pcritical xserver-xorg
[03:56] <jdong> Strom_C: you can adjust critical to low, medium, or high, each setting asking fewer questions than before
[03:57] <Strom_C> jdong: I have tried two dozen variants of dpkg-reconfigure and NONE of them produce the same results as the livecd's automatic process
[03:57] <jdong> low probably is the version used by the dept. homeland security when they confiscate your laptop....
[03:57] <jdong> Strom_C: that is exactly what the livecd runs. It sometimes helps to move your old xorg.conf out of the way
[03:57] <Strom_C> having dpkg-reconfigure ask any questions is unacceptable for this application
[03:57] <jdong> -pcritical is what the livecd uses.
[03:57] <Strom_C> alright, let me give this one another go
[03:58] <jdong> Strom_C: if you're reasonably fluent in reading bash scripts, grab the source of 'casper'
[03:58] <jdong> and look at /scripts/casper-bottom
[03:59] <Strom_C> nope, xorg won't start
[03:59] <jdong> 20xconfig mainly
[03:59] <Strom_C> jdong: I looked at that one already, actually
[03:59] <Strom_C> but my bash script fluency isn't all that good
[04:00] <Strom_C> if dpkg-reconfigure -pcritical xserver-xorg is what the livecd runs, then why are the results different when run from an installed system with X not running?
[04:01] <jdong> "casper-reconfigure /root xserver-xorg"
[04:01] <jdong> yeah it simply calls reconfigure xserver-xorg
[04:01] <jdong> with a noninteractive debconf
[04:01] <Strom_C> yeah, i've tried -fnoninteractive too
[04:01] <jdong> have you tried comparing the xorg.conf the livecd generates
[04:01] <jdong> vs this command's?
[04:01] <Strom_C> yep
[04:01] <jdong> it should be identical
[04:01] <Strom_C> they're completely different
[04:02] <jdong> runcommandinroot "$root" dpkg-reconfigure -fnoninteractive --no-reload "$package"
[04:02] <jdong> that's what casper-reconfigure reduces to
[04:02] <jdong> so -fnoninteractive --no-reload
[04:03] <Strom_C> nope, still different from what the livecd generates
[04:04] <Strom_C> fwiw, the livecd actually detects my video hardware and monitor, whereas all flavors of dpkg-reconfigure give me VESA and a generic monitor
[04:04] <jdong> hmm weird
[04:04] <Strom_C> yeah
[04:05] <jdong> is this a stock installed system? or have you changed/added/removed packages
[04:05] <jdong> or activated some different configuraiton?
[04:05] <Strom_C> the only things I've done have been to throw a few tarballs in /usr/src, install a few dependencies, and add the "universe" repository to apt-get.
[04:07] <jdong> hmm that shouldn't affect things
[04:07] <Strom_C> yeah, this is close enough to default that it shouldn't matter
[04:07] <jdong> all the times I've tried -pcritical generates an identical X config to xorg.conf
[04:08] <Strom_C> well, i'm trying the same image in two environments: a boring low-end Dell machine and a VM in "Parallels Desktop" on os x
[04:09] <Strom_C> the reconfigure works fine in the VM, but not on the Dell, though I suspect that the VM's virtual hardware is fairly genericized for compatibility
[04:09] <jdong> then there's someting weird going on with that dell....
[04:10] <jdong> all my systems reconfigure correctly
[04:10] <Strom_C> yeah, but the thing is that the livecd configures it perfectly
[04:10] <jdong> that's definitely weird
[04:11] <Strom_C> and if I'm going to take this image to various training centers to use as the lab environment for a technical training course, I kind of want it to work reasonably well in as-yet-unknown environments :)
[04:13] <Strom_C> i wonder if the livecd loads some other environment settings
[04:17] <Strom_C> this is supremely irritating
[04:19] <jdong> Strom_C: you'd want to find a time when cjwatson is around....
[04:19] <jdong> probably like 12h from now
[04:20] <Strom_C> alright....cool
[04:20] <Strom_C> thanks for your help :)
[04:21] <jdong> np
[07:53] <pitti> Good morning
[07:55] <LaserJock> pitti: good morning
[07:56] <LaserJock> pitti: I don't suppose you'd have time to look at qcad and qalculate MIRs?
[07:56] <LaserJock> :-)
[07:56] <pitti> LaserJock: ah, can do today after finishing php
[07:56] <pitti> LaserJock: please just keep poking me  :)
[07:56] <pitti> LaserJock: hmm, I actually remember looking at qalculate
[07:57] <LaserJock> pitti: oh?
[07:57] <pitti> LaserJock: Dependencies: most not yet in main
[07:57] <pitti> LaserJock: ^ these need to be listed and get MIRs filed/approved
[07:58] <pitti> LaserJock: from a three-second inspection, qcad report looks fine, will process it soon
[07:59] <LaserJock> pitti: oh sorry about qalculate, I thought I had fixed that, oops
[08:01] <LaserJock> qalculate need cln, libgd, and gnuplot
[08:01] <pitti> LaserJock: libgd? literally? we made great efforts to throw this out and only keep libgd2
[08:05] <LaserJock> pitti: I'll have to dig a bit deeper but I think it's actually libgd2
[08:05] <LaserJock> which is already in Main
[08:05] <LaserJock> I'll have to double check that
[08:05] <pitti> gd2 is fine
[08:06] <viviersf> soz to bother, but whos in charge of building the -desktop cds ?
[08:07] <dholbach> good morning
[08:12] <pitti> hey dholbach
[08:12] <pitti> asac: here?
[08:12] <dholbach> hey pitti
[09:03] <Mithrandir> viviersf: I tend to do it, why?
[09:05] <viviersf> im trying to see how brand spanking new isos get generated
[09:07] <mneptok> magical pixies that live under Mithrandir's floorboards.
[09:07] <Mithrandir> actually, they live underneath the floor in the DC, not in my house.
[09:08] <infinity> They're not that magical either.
[09:08] <LaserJock> just ordinary pixies?
[09:09] <Mithrandir> viviersf: roughly: debootstrap ; apt-get install $packages ; mksquashfs ; mkisofs
[09:12] <mdke> is bug 76632 actually fixed? I still can't unlock my screensaver... anyone seeing that?
[09:12] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 76632 in gnome-screensaver "screen does not unlock after locking" [High,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/76632
[09:12] <Strom_M> Mithrandir, if one does those steps, will packages you apt-get install be automagically installed while the installer runs?
[09:13] <Strom_M> or is there more scripting jiggerypokery one needs to do
[09:13] <Mithrandir> Strom_M: ubiquity just copies the file system off the CD.
[09:14] <Strom_M> awesome
[09:14] <Mithrandir> you want to make sure all the bits ubiquity expects to be there are there though.
[09:14] <Strom_M> right; i was just planning on supplementing the basic install
[09:20] <viviersf> Mithrandir, you got a script that does all that by any change, i can do it that way, just what does all the default configs of pam etc ?
[09:22] <Mithrandir> viviersf: yes, we have such a script, no, we are not giving it out, sorry.  There's a customisation howto on the wiki.
[09:30] <seb128> Mithrandir: is there a way to look from drescher what happened to some binary packages? libgoocanvas1 (binary NEW) is available for 4 archs, according to launchpad it built on sparc yesterday evening but the binary is not to the queue
[09:31] <viviersf> Mithrandir, thx btw
[09:33] <Mithrandir> seb128: it probably got lost in failed-to-move; try rerunning ~lp_buildd/reprocess-failed-to-move (as lp_buildd)
[09:35] <seb128> ok, thank you
[09:36] <Strom_C> stupid question: does the install cd customization process apply only to the server cd, or can I customize the desktop livecd using the same procedure?
[09:36] <Strom_C>  the instructions are a touch ambiguous on that one
[09:38] <seb128> Mithrandir: that solved it, thanks
[09:38] <LaserJock> pitti: do you have any script to check if a packages deps are not in Main
[09:41] <seb128> pitti: could you review libxcb today (binaries are to NEW atm) for main promotion? it's part of the xorg 7.2 stack and blocks libx11 update
[09:43] <viviersf> hmmmk Mithrandir
[09:43] <Mithrandir> Strom_C: there are two sets of instructions.  You want the one which concerns itself with live cds.
[09:46] <Strom_C> Mithrandir: ah ok, I didn't see that one - looks much easier than the other set of instructions :)
[09:46] <Strom_C> thanks
[09:52] <slomo> pitti: hi :) can you take a look at the ndesk-dbus and ndesk-dbus-glib main inclusion reports? should be fairly fast to review and we have the code itself in main already anyway (in other packages) ;)
[10:05] <pitti> LaserJock: no, I don't
[10:05] <pitti> seb128: can do right now
[10:05] <pitti> slomo: right, I remember; will do
[10:05] <seb128> pitti: danke
[10:05] <LaserJock> pitti: ok, np. I've got a script but it doesn't handle |'s very well
[10:06] <pitti> seb128: fun; libxcb already was in warty and hoary - welcome back :)
[10:06] <seb128> ;)
[10:08] <mneptok> has there been any talk about making apps like Azureus and Frost/Limewire depend on sun-java*-jre in the future?
[10:09] <doko> mneptok: why? to move it to multiverse?
[10:10] <mneptok> doko: because Java apps depending on GCJ are breaking all over the place.
[10:10] <mneptok> AFAIK, the GCJ dependency was only because GCJ is free.
[10:10] <pitti> seb128: wow, designed to replace Xlib? I guess 25 years of API stability are enough :-P
[10:10] <doko> mneptok: please file bug reports
[10:10] <seb128> pitti: ;)
[10:11] <cjwatson> pitti: it doesn't break API or ABI
[10:11] <seb128> pitti: there is a new libx11-xcb with it
[10:11] <pitti> cjwatson: ah, it's the same API, just a reimplementation for thread safety and other goodies?
[10:12] <seb128> pitti: well, new libx11 has the standard libx11-6 and a new libx11-xcb
[10:12] <Mithrandir> pitti: it's also so toolkits can use raw X11 instead of Xlib and thereby get better performance.
[10:12] <cjwatson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCB links to some papers
[10:12] <pitti> right, the package description is pretty interesting
[10:13] <doko> mneptok: and you may want to check out deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu/ feisty/$(ARCH)/
[10:13] <doko> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu/ feisty/all/
[10:13] <cjwatson> http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix04/tech/freenix/full_papers/sharp/sharp_html/index.html was the one I read a while back
[10:14] <Mithrandir> doko: zope 3.3.1 looks good; approved.
[10:15] <doko> Mithrandir, cjwatson: who should get the approval emails in the future?
[10:16] <Mithrandir> doko: I, until I get ubuntu-release@lists set up, then it should go there.
[10:16] <Mithrandir> I'm considering if we should move towards the same model used for SRUs and such though.
[10:17] <doko> Mithrandir: ok, mdz did forward you another one for sqlite3
[10:17] <Mithrandir> doko: yes, I'm looking at it right now
[10:18] <slomo> pitti: thanks :)
[10:20] <pitti> seb128: libxcb promoted to main and NEWed
[10:20] <slomo> pitti: yay, xcb :)
[10:20] <pitti> slomo: right, I saw some new build deps on ndesk on -changes
[10:21] <pitti> slomo: so libdbus-1-cil is obsolete?
[10:21] <pitti> slomo: and/or dbus-sharp in general?
[10:21] <Mithrandir> doko: sqlite approved.
[10:22] <slomo> pitti: it is since ~1 year already... there just was no better alternative until today ;) dbus-sharp can go to universe and the last rdep is already ported to ndesk-dbus upstream, i'm only waiting for a release
[10:22] <pitti> slomo: ah, great; would be nice to demote it for feisty
[10:22] <givre> seb128: could you please reject ntfs-config from NEW, i have a new version waiting in REVU
[10:22] <seb128> givre: no need to reject it, just upload the new version and it'll be superseded
[10:22] <pitti> slomo: in fact, nothing in main depends on it
[10:22] <slomo> pitti: it's already on the anastacia demotion list
[10:23] <slomo> pitti: yes, the only rdep is in universe (gshare)
[10:23] <pitti> slomo: right, will kick it right now
[10:23] <givre> seb128: ok, bddebian wasn't sure. thanks
[10:23] <Mithrandir> Riddell: where can I find the KDE release schedule?
[10:23] <seb128> slomo: BTW the gnome-user-share change you did for Debian is not good for Ubuntu?
[10:23] <pitti> slomo: there it goes :)
[10:23] <seb128> slomo: the apache config one
[10:24] <slomo> seb128: it is, we need it... i'll file all remaining sync requests today, that's the next point on my todo list :)
[10:24] <seb128> slomo: ok
[10:24] <seb128> I was surprised that you didn't ask for a sync nor uploaded to Ubuntu
[10:25] <pitti> slomo: btw, would you mind improving the package description a bit? "ndesk-dbus is a C# implementation of D-Bus." sounds like reimplementing dbus-daemon, when it is in fact reimplementing the client library
[10:25] <pitti> slomo: when I read that the first time I thought "d'oh, just what the world needs..."
[10:25] <Mithrandir> Riddell: never mind; I found it.
[10:26] <slomo> pitti: well, until now its only a client implementation... but a daemon is planned too ;) although i doubt someone will really use it as default
[10:26] <slomo> pitti: i'll change the description with the next upload
[10:26] <pitti> slomo: thanks
[10:27] <pitti> slomo: I want a dbus daemon written entirely in posix shell
[10:27] <Mithrandir> pitti: no, you don't.
[10:27] <pitti> Mithrandir: sorry, working on php for too long causes irreversible brain damage
[10:27] <slomo> pitti: oh... go for it, should be interesting :)
[10:28] <Mithrandir> pitti: so you clearly want a dbusd written in php?
[10:28] <pitti> uuarrrgh
[10:28] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: ooh! great idea! I'll start writing immediately
[10:30] <slomo> pitti: btw, apport still complains about crashing mono in feisty :/
[10:31] <pitti> slomo: can you give me a test case? kill -SEGV'ing f-spot or tomboy didn't work
[10:31] <slomo> pitti: not really, but i saw bugreports from crashing beagle...
[10:35] <slomo> seb128: hm, seems to be the only important thing i didn't sync/upload yet
[10:35] <seb128> ok, good ;)
[10:35] <seb128> slomo: I can sync it now if you want
[10:35] <slomo> seb128: btw, will you update gstreamer core and plugins-base to a new cvs snapshot soon? or wait until the releases?
[10:35] <seb128> slomo: I was going to ping Mithrandir about that today
[10:35] <seb128> let's do that now
[10:35] <slomo> seb128: would be nice, sync request is bug #86663
[10:36] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 86663 in gnome-user-share "Please sync gnome-user-share 0.10-4 from debian/unstable (main)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86663
[10:43] <seb128> re
[10:43] <seb128> Mithrandir: did you read what I was writting before the split?
[10:47] <Mithrandir> seb128: the gnome-user-share one doesn't require UVF exception.
[10:47] <Mithrandir> seb128: what's new and shiny in the new gstreamer bits?
[10:48] <seb128> what did you read before the split?
[10:48] <seb128> let's copy again
 Mithrandir: gstreamer upstream did some changes for easy codec installation (basically they moved libgimme-codec to gst-plugins-base0.10), the new totem tarball has its code updated for that change
[10:48] <seb128>  mitsuhiko Mithrandir
[10:48] <seb128>  Mithrandir: new gst tarballs are coming next week, would it be ok to update the CVS snapshots we have today and update to new versions next week?
[10:48] <seb128> well
[10:48] <seb128> lot of bug fixes, probably some new feature
[10:48] <seb128> what I'm interested in is the EasyCodecInstall bits
[10:48] <Mithrandir> hm, that's interesting, yes.
[10:48] <Mithrandir> ok, go for it.
[10:48] <seb128> thank you
[10:49] <seb128> and we have a CVS snapshot atm already so it's probably a good idea to upgrade to next tarball anyway
[10:52] <slomo> Mithrandir: can you also take a look at the dbus-glib (#84932) and liferea (#86596) uvf exceptions? both are mostly bugfix releases
[10:54] <seb128> doko: could you get an UVF exception for bug #84820
[10:54] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 84820 in Ubuntu "sync request" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84820
[10:54] <seb128> fastjar sync request
[10:55] <Mithrandir> slomo: both approved.
[10:55] <slomo> Mithrandir: thanks :)
[10:56] <seb128> dholbach, slomo: if MOTU UVF is still assigned to a bug does it mean it's not ready to be processed yet?
[10:56] <seb128> https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kphotoalbum/+bug/85103
[10:56] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 85103 in kphotoalbum "please sync kphotoalbum [universe]  from Debian experimental [main] " [Undecided,Confirmed]
[10:57] <doko> seb128: hmm, I'll close the report, it's not necessary
[10:57] <seb128> doko: ok, thank you
[10:58] <slomo> seb128: no that's fine... if the bug is set to confirmed it's approved
[10:58] <seb128> ok
[11:09] <sabdfl> seb128: had the same screensaver login issue again yesterday, is that fixed now?
[11:09] <seb128> sabdfl: yes, we changed the location to /var/run/gdm_socket and it'll stay there now and I've updated the package using it to check the edgy and the feisty sockets so it should not break edgy upgrades
[11:12] <sabdfl> cool - thanks seb128
[11:12] <seb128> np
[12:05] <doko> do we have any meta package for beryl, or just close beryl bug reports?
[12:05] <Mithrandir> we don't have beryl in the archive.
[12:05] <pitti> beryl-manager - Tray application launcher tool for Beryl
[12:05] <pitti> but nothing else
[12:06] <pitti> (and because of that it's uninstallable)
[12:06] <Mithrandir> given that the rest of it wasn't distributable, I rejected it and nobody's uploaded a new version.
[12:06] <StevenK> Beryl isn't distrubutable? Neat.
[12:07] <pitti> StevenK: no, it killed the eyes of too many people, thus falls under the WMD category (Windows of Mass Distraction)
[12:07] <StevenK> Hah
[12:07] <Mithrandir> it includes compiled files without sources.
[12:08] <StevenK> Neat.
[12:08] <sabdfl> pitti: it may yet emerge as the stronger system, ui wise
[12:08] <Mithrandir> oh, and some of the files there doesn't have a free compiler either, so they'd have to go to multiverse.
[12:08] <pitti> sabdfl: I agree; at least I noticed that compiz sucks hard ATM
[12:08] <Lathiat> what the hell does beryl needs thats compiled and/or non-free?
[12:08] <seb128> doko: I reject beryl bugs saying to people to send the bug to the people making the package they are using
[12:08] <Mithrandir> Lathiat: opengl shaders.
[12:09] <Lathiat> ah hrm
[12:09] <sabdfl> we should get this stuff cleaned up and into ubuntu
[12:09] <sabdfl> so the conversation happens here, not somewhere else
[12:09] <Mithrandir> as well as having C files with 4k x 4k pixmaps in them where I doubt that is the preferred form of modification.
[12:09] <Lathiat> beryl-1.dfsg1 anyone :)
[12:10] <seb128> there is a mail about compiz,beryl on http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/compiz/2007-February
[12:10] <pitti> Mithrandir: it's not an .xpm?
[12:10] <Mithrandir> pitti: no.  OpenGL doesn't use XPMs.
[12:12] <seb128> pitti: beryl sucks as much as compiz
[12:13] <seb128> pitti: they basically have the same core, beryl has extra workarounds, configuration dialogs, plugins and things like that
[12:13] <pitti> seb128: metacity FTW! :-p
[12:13] <seb128> pitti: yeah, for me as well ;)
[12:13] <mneptok> in related news, both of my cats are now working on competing compositors for X.
[12:14] <mneptok> you know, just to be au courant.
[12:14] <pitti> argh, mneptok is in his best mood again today :)
[12:15] <mneptok> let me know if you find an X compositing layer back there.
[12:20] <pitti> mneptok: no, just little fur balls, but that's close enough
[12:21] <mneptok> do they wobble?
[12:21] <mneptok> and why is my GPU not melting?
[12:22] <Mithrandir> mneptok: because compositing is not very much work for GPUs.
[12:22] <pitti> except, of course, if you have a two years old laptop :-(
[12:23] <Mithrandir> my x40 is more than two years old and runs compiz at least just fine.
[12:24] <pitti> well, my radeon 9200 runs tuxracer just fine, but cube rotation and window moving/resizing really sucks with compiz
[12:25] <pitti> (with the free driver anyway; not that I have much choice on powerpc)
[12:27] <jdub> localhost kernel: [963670.820000]  EIP: [<f092ab96>]  ext3_clear_inode+0x26/0xa0 [ext3]  SS:ESP 0068:effafeb4
[12:28] <doko> pitti: what is calling /usr/share/apport/apport-gtk ?
[12:29] <doko> pitti: what is calling /usr/share/apport/apport-gtk ?
[12:30] <doko> pitti do you see bug 73104 for feisty as well?
[12:30] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 73104 in apport "apport causes Python interpreter to segfault" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/73104
[12:30] <pitti> doko: python segfault> no, I never saw it
[12:30] <pitti> doko: calling a-gtk> update-notifier
[12:35] <Mithrandir> dholbach: can I use bughelper with a product and not just packages?
[12:35] <dholbach> Mithrandir: yes.... -U to use "upstream bugs" too
[12:37] <Mithrandir> how do I get it to just look at a product?
[12:37] <dholbach> not implemented yet - if you file a bug, I'll look into it
[12:40] <seb128> Mithrandir: UVF exception for rhythmbox? We have <IP_ADDRESS> which is 0.9.8 pre version and they rolled 0.9.8 now
[12:40] <Mithrandir> seb128: anything which should scare me there?
[12:41] <seb128> no, that's mostly bug fixing since <IP_ADDRESS> which is ~2 weeks old
[12:41] <Mithrandir> go ahead, then
[12:41] <seb128> thank you
[12:45] <gpocentek> pitti: is there a way to avoid changing the maintainer with the new dpkg-source?
[12:45] <pitti> gpocentek: the dpkg-source change is to enforce you not to avoid it :)
[12:45] <pitti> gpocentek: however, someone posted a script on u-devel-discuss to do it automatically
[12:47] <gpocentek> ok
[12:49] <shawarma> seb128: Will you get around to accepting network-manager-{openvpn,vpnc} today? Universe FF is getting dangerously close. :-)
[12:49] <seb128> shawarma: I though that Mithrandir was on them, will do if he doesn't
[12:51] <Mithrandir> seb128: they should be easy enough, so please just grab them.
[12:51] <shawarma> seb128: Ah, I thought he took off his archive admin hat monday evening.
[12:51] <seb128> Mithrandir: ok
[12:51] <seb128> shawarma: well, that doesn't prevent to have a look on package you are interested in ;)
[12:51] <tepsipakki> shawarma: the release-manager hat is firmly in place ;)
[12:52] <shawarma> tepsipakki: True. :-)
[12:52] <pitti> Mithrandir: speaking of RM hat, cups 1.2.8 looks pretty sane: http://www.cups.org/articles.php?L443
[12:53] <ajmitch> Mithrandir: oh, and I've got a new f-spot (0.3.4) package that seems to work, shall I file a bug for it?
[12:53] <Mithrandir> ajmitch: yes, please.  Or give me a link here and I can look at it.
[12:54] <ajmitch> source package or debdiff?
[12:54] <Mithrandir> debdiff, please.
[12:55] <Mithrandir> pitti: yeah, looks sane enough.  Go ahead.
[12:55] <pitti> Mithrandir: will do, thanks
[12:56] <ajmitch> http://ajmitch.net.nz/debuild/mono/bzr/f-spot/f-spot_0.3.3-0.3.4.debdiff
[12:56] <ajmitch> I still have to fill in the changelog before uploading
[12:57] <slomo> pitti: hm, the binary packages libndesk-dbus1.0-cil and libndesk-dbus-glib1.0-cil are still in universe, only the sources are in main
[12:57] <pitti> slomo: hm, let me look
[12:57] <slomo> pitti: or LP confuses me... but tomboy is again on depwait because it can't find the packages
[12:58] <pitti> slomo: weird, I NEWed them to main
[12:59] <pitti> slomo: libndesk-dbus-glib1.0-cil is in main already
[12:59] <pitti> slomo: promoted libndesk-dbus1.0-cil now; for some reason that didn't work the first time I tried it
[12:59] <slomo> pitti: but not the other? hmm, thanks :) and apart from that archive.ubuntu.com seems to be broken, i didn't get anything new since yesterday evening ;)
[01:00] <pitti> slomo: me too, doesn't even pong here
[01:01] <pitti> slomo: I get a 'Destination Port Unreachable' from the DC, too, I just asked the sysadmins
[01:02] <slomo> pitti: hm, well as long as everything still builds with the new packages it's not too bad ;)
[01:02] <pitti> slomo: I'm not sure whether the buildds use archive.u.c or drescher directly, but I suspect the former
[01:38] <gnomefreak> pitti: if your around is there a way to repack the apport crash reports so i can retrace for debugging symbols?
[01:43] <seb128> gnomefreak: apport-retrace can take a launchpad bug number
[01:44] <seb128> gnomefreak: it'll download the dump and retrace from it
[01:44] <gnomefreak> just apport-retrace bug 11111?
[01:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 11111 in kernel-package "Grubs menu.lst gets overwritten every time a kernel update is done" [Medium,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11111
[01:46] <seb128> gnomefreak: apport-retrace -g nnnnnn
[01:47] <gnomefreak> ah ok ty
[01:47] <seb128> np
[01:47] <gnomefreak> ill try it
[01:47] <seb128> or -s if you want to print the retrace on the command line rather than attaching gdb
[01:49] <gnomefreak> i dont need to tell it what bug tracker like malone #####
[01:52] <seb128> gnomefreak: no, just the launchpad bug number
[01:52] <Keybuk> why can't I get either beryl or compiz to work?
[01:52] <seb128> probably because of the xorg updates
[01:52] <gnomefreak> seb128: ok its running we will see what happens :)
[01:52] <seb128> try again when new mesa has built
[01:54] <tepsipakki> Keybuk: used to work?
[01:54] <Keybuk> tepsipakki: never tried it
[01:54] <Keybuk> was trying to demo it last night
[01:54] <tepsipakki> a-ha! :)
[01:54] <Keybuk> and both failed completely
[01:55] <Keybuk> I did think that it's a pretty good idea that we're *not* shipping them as default <g>
[01:55] <seb128> gandalfn who work on compiz told me it was broken for him yesterday after the libxrandr update
[01:55] <Keybuk> compiz vaguely worked, but gnome-panel kept crashing
[01:55] <seb128> he had some white screen problem
[01:55] <Keybuk> beryl also vaguely worked, but the controls inside the windows were incredibly slow to update -- if they updated at all
[01:56] <seb128> Keybuk: weird, it should not impact on the panel ... did you install an external libwnck?
[01:56] <Keybuk> seb128: nope, just desktop-effects
[01:56] <Trewas> umm, isn't including full coredumps in the bugreports reported by apport and keeping them forever available for everyone to see in launchpad a pretty bad privacy hazard, at least for firefox and other web browsers?
[01:56] <seb128> do you have a backtrace or crash file for the problem with compiz?
[01:56] <Keybuk> seb128: I can get you one
[01:57] <seb128> Trewas: don't send a dump if you don't want to
[01:57] <seb128> Keybuk: would be nice, thank you
[01:58] <Trewas> seb128: I know, but if the people knew what it actually sends (I checked a few coredumps) I doubt anyone would let it... but I guess it's ok if it has some very, very prominent warnings
[01:58] <seb128> Trewas: the apport dialog say it might contain private datas, no?
[01:59] <Trewas> seb128: s/might/will surely/ would be more honest, at least in case of firefox
[01:59] <seb128> what datas does it send?
[02:00] <seb128> I don't know for firefox but for many programs there is nothing private to the crash file
[02:00] <seb128> do you consider things like the URL you were browsing as private data?
[02:00] <Trewas> at least a large number of urls from the browsing history, I assume also saved form-data could also be found if one was filled recently (meaning for example credit card numbers)
[02:00] <heno> seb128: does it also warn you that the data will be posted on the web and indexed by google? :)
[02:00] <Treenaks> seb128: firefox tends to have passwords in memory
[02:00] <gnomefreak> seb128: retracing it gives paths to files using the -v -d options
[02:01] <gnomefreak> doesnt send passwords or anything from what i have seen
[02:01] <seb128> Treenaks: non-crypted password?
[02:02] <seb128> heno: google will not index the content of the coredump.gz
[02:02] <seb128> anyway that's something know
[02:02] <gnomefreak> seb128: it grabbed the symbols using -g nnnn and dropped me to gdb what do i do from gdb?
[02:02] <seb128> I think the plan at some point is to have a crash collector system
[02:03] <seb128> and move crashes to bugs then
[02:03] <seb128> gnomefreak: thread apply all bt
[02:03] <seb128> gnomefreak: if you don't know about gdb you probably want to use the -s option rather than the -g one
[02:15] <geser> how much time does it currently take for a build package to appear on the archive?
[02:15] <pitti> geser: between .05 and 1.5 hours usually
[02:15] <pitti> erm, s/0.05/0.5/
[02:18] <geser> what could block a2mp3 (finished building at 2007-02-21 01:51:36 CET) to not reached the archive yet?
[02:19] <pitti> geser: archive.ubuntu.com currently seems to have troubles
[02:19] <geser> ok, thanks
[02:30] <Riddell> pitti: dpkg-source complains if the maintainer is set to a kubuntu e-mail address, is that your doing?
[02:30] <pitti> Riddell: hmm, let me look
[02:31] <pitti> +            if ($fi{'C Maintainer'} !~ /ubuntu/) {
[02:31] <pitti> +                    &error(_g('Version number suggests Ubuntu changes, but Maintainer: does not have Ubuntu address'));
[02:31] <pitti> Riddell: ^ since @kubuntu.org matches /ubuntu/, I'm confused
[02:31] <Riddell> pitti: never mind, my fault
[02:32] <Riddell> I kept the old maintainer line as well without changing it
[02:32] <pitti> but thanks for poking, I just saw a bug in the check
[02:32] <pitti> or, rather, it was correct before applying the bug fix
[02:33] <pitti> ah, no, it's alright
[03:16] <kwwii> dholbach: where can I find the source for gdm artwork in hoary?
[03:18] <ne78> Will xorg 7.2 (with xserver 1.3 is possible) be part of fesity or feisty+1 ?
[03:20] <kwwii> dholbach: forget it, I foudn it
[03:23] <seb128> ne78: we are working to get it for feisty, several lib and mesa have already been updated
[03:23] <seb128> ne78: I'm not sure about xserver 1.3 though, is it available yet?
[03:33] <ne78> seb128: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2007-February/022005.html
[03:34] <seb128> ne78: I think we will try to get xorg 7.2 and xserver 1.2 first and then we will see
[03:35] <mjg59> xserver 1.3 is basically just 1.2 + randr 1.2
[03:35] <ne78> seb128: randr 1.2 is the feature i would ove to have in feisty
[03:35] <seb128> ne78: randr 1.2 has been uploaded yesterday we will see what we can do for the server when we update it
[03:35] <ne78> seb128: cool
[03:35] <seb128> no reply for now
[03:36] <seb128> but we will look at it
[03:53] <seb128> Mithrandir: could you give a retry to rhythmbox on all archs?
[03:54] <Mithrandir> seb128: given-back
[03:54] <seb128> thank you
[04:08] <bddebian> Heya
[04:18] <seb128> hate quilt
[04:18] <seb128> how do I create a patch with that
[04:20] <tepsipakki> seb128: I love it :)
[04:20] <seb128> weird :p
[04:20] <seb128> I want cdbs-edit-patch
[04:20] <seb128> something I can run, do my changes and get a patch
[04:21] <tepsipakki> quilt new 100_some_patch.diff; quilt add some/file.c; <edit>; quilt refresh
[04:21] <bddebian> dpatch-edit-patch? :-)
[04:21] <tepsipakki> oh and 'quilt push -a' before that
[04:21] <tepsipakki> did I miss something..
[04:22] <seb128> gnagnagna
[04:22] <seb128> hate hate it
[04:23] <seb128> quilt new patch
[04:23] <seb128> autoreconf
[04:23] <seb128> quilt refresh
[04:23] <seb128> -> Nothing in patch 099_autoreconf
[04:23] <kylem> you have to actually tell it you're changing something.
[04:23] <seb128> I don't know what I'm changing
[04:23] <kylem> so it can preserve it and actually generate a diff.
[04:23] <seb128> I'm running autoreconf
[04:24] <seb128> and I want it to diff before and after like cdbs-edit-patch do
[04:24] <kylem> cdbs-edit-patch has the advantage of using a temporary copy... quilt is trying to do things in place. you're pretty much S.O.L. for this...
[04:24] <seb128> I don't want to "quilt add file" on a zillion of Makefile.in
[04:24] <tepsipakki> seb128: you could ask jcristau on #ubuntu-x
[04:24] <seb128> I'll just switch that package back to some sane patch system I think
[04:24] <tepsipakki> seb128: you need it for libx11?
[04:25] <seb128> no for compiz I was trying to merge from debian
[04:25] <tepsipakki> ah
[04:25] <seb128> but doing that stupid autoreconf patch is taking as long as merging the rest of the package
[04:26] <Mithrandir> seb128: just quilt add $(find -type f) and leave it to it to work out which files actually changed? :-)
[04:27] <seb128> Mithrandir:  yeah I'll do that
[04:27] <seb128> I don't get why people actually use that, they don't like things that just work ;)
[04:51] <pochu> BenC: do you have a kernel meeting now?
[04:51] <BenC> pochu: In 9 minutes, yes
[04:52] <pochu> BenC: oks. it's because in ubuntu-meeting it says current meeting, and there is nobody :)
[04:52] <pochu> hehe
[04:52] <BenC> I think it's preemptive or something :)
[04:53] <pochu> :)
[04:53] <BenC> unless it's UTC clock is just broken
[04:53] <pochu> BenC: maybe :)
[05:19] <iwj> At last!  autopkgtest is now building dovecot.
[05:39] <gpocentek> ls
[05:39] <gpocentek> sorry, wrong window
[06:09] <iwj> ROTFL
[06:09] <iwj> adt-run: erroneous package: Test Depends field contains dependency `python' with invalid characters
[06:50] <jdong> Dear emacs doctor... everywhere I look there are subliminal messages that I should use emacs
[06:51] <jdong> there's emacs and solaris vi on the workstation that I'm currently on.
[06:51] <Treenaks> jdong: Ctrl+X Ctrl+C will show them
[06:51] <jdong> There's emacs posters around me....
[06:51] <jdong> and now ESR has joined Ubuntu?
[06:51] <Treenaks> jdong: Mwuahahaha! :)#
[06:51] <jdong> please make it stop... my pinky hurts to think about it.
[06:51] <Treenaks> jdong: be sure to use xemacs -- to annoy him
[06:52] <jdong> :)
[06:53] <Keybuk> I spend all of my time trying *not* to use emacs
[06:53] <Keybuk> but there's just nothing better
[06:53] <Keybuk> which is ad
[06:53] <Keybuk> sad too
[06:54] <bddebian> jdong: WHAT, no nano??
[06:54] <bddebian> :)
[06:54] <jdong> bddebian, the one I'm on is Solaris 10 based... and the  Linux WS'es here are RHEL4-based
[06:54] <jdong> both of which have no shipped nano
[06:54] <jdong> but my bashrc imports a few vim packages :)
[06:54] <bddebian> heh
[06:54] <jdong> and aliases emacs to vim :)
[06:55] <jdong> the first time I launched solaris vi I actually got a notice that it isn't officially supported by IS&T :D
[06:55] <tsmithe> i'm trying to package something (wired), but came across http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/6899/ when trying to document copyrights. i'm not really sure what to do.
[06:56] <tsmithe> sistpoty pointed me here
[06:57] <Keybuk> tsmithe: looks like the "Wired Team" have modified code taken from someone else
[06:57] <Keybuk> the original code is LGPL, the modified code is GPL
[06:57] <tsmithe> ok. so it's now GPL?
[06:57] <tsmithe> shall i give both credits?
[06:59] <Keybuk> tsmithe: I would normally give both credits, yes
[06:59] <tsmithe> thanks
[06:59] <Keybuk> it's permissible to relicence LGPL code under the GPL
[06:59] <tsmithe> oh. didn't know that. cool - /me dives back into his console
[07:00] <Keybuk>   3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General Public
[07:00] <Keybuk> License instead of this License to a given copy of the Library.  To do
[07:00] <Keybuk> this, you must alter all the notices that refer to this License, so
[07:00] <Keybuk> that they refer to the ordinary GNU General Public License, version 2,
[07:00] <Keybuk> instead of to this License.  (If a newer version than version 2 of the
[07:00] <Keybuk> ordinary GNU General Public License has appeared, then you can specify
[07:00] <Keybuk> that version instead if you wish.)  Do not make any other change in
[07:00] <Keybuk> these notices.
[07:00] <Keybuk> (from LGPL 2.1)
[07:00] <tsmithe> great!
[07:31] <LaserJock> pitti: get a chance to look at qcad MIR by chance?
[07:33] <pitti> LaserJock: not yet, sorry
[07:34] <LaserJock> pitti: np, just wondered if I missed something
[07:42] <esr> finalbeta on #ubuntiu directed me here when I asked what mailing list to join first to get involved in Ubuntu development.
[07:43] <finalbeta> that's great, blame me ;)
[07:43] <Mirv> esr: hi, ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-devel-discuss for example
[07:43] <Mirv> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
[07:44] <esr> I read the wiki and know about those two.  I was trying to get a handle on which one to start with.
[07:44] <sharms> esr: that list is moderated, might not be 100% what you are looking for
[07:44] <Mirv> a more full list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ , where you can pick yours. but be aware that a lot of development is basically happening inside Launchpad, which takes some time to get used to
[07:44] <Mirv> https://launchpad.net/
[07:44] <Keybuk> esr: ubuntu-devel-discuss is an open list for discussing development ideas, etc.
[07:44] <Keybuk> esr: ubuntu-devel is moderated to active developers only, to keep the traffic lower
[07:44] <sharms> Or come to Ubuntu-Motu since that is a great starting point for anyone
[07:45] <Keybuk> esr: the majority of Ubuntu (the "universe" repository) is maintained by the "Masters Of The Universe", their mailing list is the ubuntu-motu mailing list
[07:45] <Mirv> (motu="masters of the universe", universe=community maintained software packages)
[07:45] <Keybuk> if you want to join the development team, first you'd join the MOTU list and team and work your way towards the core development team
[07:46] <esr> I guess it will be the MOTU list first, then.
[07:46] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[07:46] <pitti> hi esr
[07:46] <Keybuk> that's a pretty comprehensive starting point for that team
[07:47] <Keybuk> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newdev
[07:47] <sharms> if MOTU can deal with me, then you know its a good place to start
[07:47] <Keybuk> ^ is a wordy overview of the "becoming a developer" process
[07:47] <sharms> I am pretty sure Jono's herding cats was about filtering me out :)
[07:48] <Keybuk> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember -- anyone can become an Ubuntu member by contributing to the community (where contribution can include advocacy, etc.)
[07:49] <esr> Right, I read http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newdev.
[07:49] <esr> I've just sent a subscription request to the MOTU list.
[08:20] <bddebian> esr: For Universe/MOTU, you should probably join us in #ubuntu-motu :-)
[08:30] <pitti> LaserJock: still here?
[08:30] <LaserJock> pitti: yep
[08:31] <pitti> LaserJock: I just reviewed qcad; how badly is this needed for edubuntu?
[08:31] <mdke> are we shipping the control center shell by default in feisty?
[08:31] <LaserJock> pitti: well, that's sort of a tough question
[08:31] <pitti> LaserJock: the only critics I have is that it does not support gettext, and thus does not integrate into our translation infrastructure at all
[08:31] <pitti> LaserJock: otherwise it's fine
[08:31] <LaserJock> pitti: CAD is a pretty high demand
[08:32] <LaserJock> pitti: and it's about the only/best CAD program we've got as far as I can tell
[08:32] <pitti> LaserJock: I'm willing to approve it, it'd just become a nuisance once we demote qt3 and want to translate it
[08:32] <pitti> LaserJock: right, but it doesn't get any worse in universe (IOW, in main it cannot profit from langpack support etc. anyway)
[08:32] <Mithrandir> LaserJock: how useful is kicad?
[08:32] <pitti> LaserJock: if you want to put it onto the edubuntu CD, then there's no question
[08:33] <pitti> LaserJock: but if you want it in main 'just because', then I'm not sure about the benefits
[08:33] <LaserJock> pitti: it's supposed to go onto the Edubuntu Add-on CD
[08:34] <pitti> LaserJock: ok then
[08:34] <LaserJock> pitti: well, if you approve it I can ask ogra about the issue and let him decide
[08:34] <pitti> alright
[08:34] <LaserJock> my feeling is he'll want it because we get a lot of requests for CAD
[08:34] <LaserJock> but that sure stinks about no gettext support :/
[08:44] <bddebian> pitti: Are you just<EMAIL_ADDRESS>?
[08:44] <pitti> bddebian: that should work, too
[08:45] <bddebian> Is there a preferred one?
[08:55] <pitti> bddebian: martin.pitt@
[08:56] <ZiNC> Hey.
[08:59] <bddebian> pitti: Too late but thanks.  I'll remember for next time :)
[08:59] <pitti> bddebian: as I said, pitti@ is an alias and should work
[09:01] <bddebian> NP
[09:01] <ZiNC> Anyone familiar with SMART, particularly how sector remapping works?
[09:34] <Mez> is there an easy way to get a list of all installed packages?
[09:34] <mr_pouit> dpkg --get-selections ?
[09:36] <Chipzz> dpkg --get-selections | grep install | cut -f1 in that case :P
[09:36] <mr_pouit> ^^"
[09:36] <Chipzz> hrrrrm wait no :P
[09:36] <Chipzz> the grep install is wrong actually :P
[09:37] <Mithrandir> dpkg -l | grep ^ii
[09:37] <BenC> What's the suggested way to fix this:
[09:37] <BenC> dpkg-source: error: Version number suggests Ubuntu changes, but Maintainer: does not have Ubuntu address
[09:37] <Mithrandir> BenC: what's the maintainer address?
[09:38] <BenC> It's a Debian.org address (kernel team), but I'm wondering if all I need to do is change it to mine
[09:38] <pochu> BenC: an @ubuntu.com address :)
[09:38] <BenC> I don't need to add some magical meta field for the original maintainer?
[09:38] <Mithrandir> move the current one to XSBC-Original-Maintainer and set the Maintainer one to yours or<EMAIL_ADDRESS>or something.
[09:39] <BenC> ah, that's what I was looking for
[09:39] <BenC> Mithrandir: thanks
[09:39] <Mithrandir> BenC: you know, this is all documented in pitti's posting to u-d-a a week or so ago. :-)
[09:39] <pochu> BenC: not subscribed to devel-?
[09:39] <BenC> Mithrandir: Yeah, I remember now :)
[09:50] <bluefoxicy> does anyone know what the flicker is in X anyway?
[09:50] <bluefoxicy> Once in a while (I've noticed this since the beginning of time), the screen will just jerk and for like 1 frame everything will be dragged off to the side or scrunched
[09:50] <bluefoxicy> brief display corruption
[09:50] <bluefoxicy> no real impact on usability or stability, it's just weird.
[09:51] <LaserJock> sounds like a bluefoxicy-specific issue ;-)
[09:51] <bluefoxicy> vo.ov
[09:55] <pitti> Mithrandir: is there anything in the live system creation that could clean /var/lib/update-notifier/user.d/, i. e. the package post-install notifications?
[09:56] <Mithrandir> pitti: yes, we could do that.  Could you mail infinity to get that fixed, please?
[09:56] <pitti> Mithrandir: ah, good; I wondered since yesterday why the hell that postinst doesn't work
[09:59] <Mithrandir> grr, what's the way to get bzr to output a proper ChangeLog style log?
[10:00] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: #bzr?
[10:00] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: submit a spec, then organise a sprint ;)
[10:00] <elmo> Mithrandir: there's a plugin for it I think, but bzr itself doesn't do it
[10:00] <Mithrandir> elmo: k, thanks.
[10:01] <elmo> http://telecom.inescporto.pt/~gjc/gnulog.py
[10:02] <Mithrandir> elmo: oh, excellent.  Thanks.
[10:02] <Mithrandir> apart from it blowing up due to non-ascii chars, but I'll work around that. :-)
[10:28] <seb128> shawarma: ping?
[10:47] <h4writer> Do anyone know if the code of run_command (<alt>F2) is in python and where I can find it. For the moment I find only the panel-run-dialog.glade file
[10:48] <h4writer> (I want to change it a bit)
[10:49] <seb128> it's not in python
[10:49] <seb128> it's gnome-panel code
[10:50] <h4writer> can I edit it and run it direct. Or do I need to recomile it always I change a bit?
[10:50] <tsmithe> gnome-panel is C
[10:50] <tsmithe> you'll need to recompile
[10:51] <h4writer> no, so quick changing something in it, is not easy:-(
[10:51] <h4writer> ok it wil not be for me
[10:51] <h4writer> thanks anyway
[10:52] <tsmithe> sorry :)
[11:05] <shawarma> seb128: pong
[11:05] <seb128> shawarma: network-manager-vpnc is not good
[11:06] <seb128> gnome-two-password-dialog.c looks like LGPL
[11:06] <seb128> "   The Gnome Library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
[11:06] <seb128>    modify it under the terms of the GNU Library General Public License as
[11:06] <seb128>    published by the ree Software Foundation; either version 2 of the
[11:06] <seb128>    License, or (at your option) any later version.
[11:06] <seb128> "
[11:06] <seb128> and there is no copy to the LPGL to the package
[11:06] <shawarma> Yes.
[11:06] <shawarma> Sure. It's in that same directory.
[11:06] <shawarma> Isn't it?
[11:07] <sistpoty> seb128: btw.: is there a way to send new-rejects to the signer as well? I guess that would help us quite to improve reviewing skills
[11:07] <shawarma> seb128: It's there in my copy..
[11:08] <shawarma> seb128: auth-dialog/COPYING should be LGPL-2 unless I messed up somewhere.
[11:09] <h4writer> tsmithe, I wanted to fill a bug request (for my small tweak), but there was already reported: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=339963
[11:09] <Ubugtu> Gnome bug 339963 in Panel "Run dialog should not modify the list when selecting an item" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
[11:09] <h4writer> It dates from 2006!?!
[11:10] <h4writer> that's pity
[11:10] <seb128_> re
[11:10] <seb128_> shawarma:
[11:10] <seb128_> properties/nm-vpnc.c is  Copyright (C) 2005 David Zeuthen<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:10] <seb128_>  and it's not listed to debian/copyright
[11:11] <shawarma> seb128_: True.
[11:11] <tsmithe> seb128_, you on archive duty?
[11:11] <shawarma> seb128_: I'll fix it right away.
[11:12] <shawarma> seb128_: Anything in -openvpn I should fix while I'm at it?
[11:12] <seb128__> re
[11:12] <seb128__> what did you get before my internet disconnected? :p
[11:13] <shawarma> That you believed the LGPL was missing
[11:13] <shawarma> ...to which I responded:
[11:14] <shawarma> seb128: auth-dialog/COPYING should be LGPL-2 unless I messed up somewhere.
 properties/nm-vpnc.c is  Copyright (C) 2005 David Zeuthen<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:14] <seb128__>  and it's not listed to debian/copyright
[11:14] <seb128__>  sistpoty: I didn't reject it yet, I was pinged shawarma because he asked about the package today
[11:14] <shawarma> seb128: Oh, that too. I'm fixing it right now.
[11:14] <sistpoty> seb128_: it was more a general question, not nm-vpnc specific ;)
[11:15] <seb128__> shawarma: ups, I'm used to have the COPYING to the src dir, not to subdirs, that's fine then
[11:15] <seb128__> sistpoty: ok
[11:16] <shawarma> seb128__: I put it there because the rest is GPL and i put the corresponding COPYING for that in the root.
[11:16] <seb128__> usually people use a COPYING and a COPYING.LIB to the src dir
[11:16] <seb128__> but that's fine
[11:17] <bddebian> seb128__: Do you happen to know if you are going to hit libtifiles2 also?
[11:17] <bddebian> Oh, nm
[11:17] <tsmithe> seb128__, did you get my ping? (/me feels really rude)
[11:17] <seb128__> bddebian: "hit libtifiles2", what?
[11:17] <seb128__> tsmithe: no
[11:17] <tsmithe> ah
[11:17] <shawarma> seb128__: Ah, that makes sense, too. I'll leave it where it is for now, though.
[11:18] <tsmithe> seb128__, are you on archive duty tonight?
[11:18] <bddebian> seb128__: In NEW
[11:18] <seb128__> tsmithe: I am
[11:18] <tsmithe> seb128__, could you take a look at wired? _MMA_ would really like it to be in feisty and thus ubuntustudio
[11:18] <seb128__> bddebian: I'm working on NEW, I'll probably not process everything to source NEW though, there is too much of it
[11:18] <bddebian> seb128__: OK
[11:18] <seb128__> "_MMA_"?
[11:19] <tsmithe> seb128__, he's the lead for ubuntustudio
[11:19] <seb128__> tsmithe: ok, will do
[11:19] <tsmithe> thanks much
[11:19] <tsmithe> also, if enblend gets up there, i'd appreciate that as well
[11:20] <bddebian> Sheesh, what am I chopped liver? :-)
[11:21] <tsmithe> bddebian, er yeah...
[11:21] <bddebian> Shut up tsmithe, no more reviews for you ;-P
[11:21] <tsmithe> :D
[11:21] <tsmithe> you know that's not true :P
[11:22] <shawarma> seb128__: Reuploaded nm-vpnc.
[11:23] <seb128__> shawarma: ok, thank you, otherwise it looks fine, I'll probably accept the update
[11:24] <shawarma> seb128__: Sounds excellent. -openvpn was fine?
[11:24] <mdke> seb128__: are we sticking to control center for feisty or reverting with GNOME?
[11:24] <seb128__> mdke: control-center is GNOME
[11:25] <seb128__> shawarma: it's next :p
[11:25] <shawarma> seb128: ah. i'll stick around for a bit. :-)
[11:25] <mdke> seb128__: I mean, I read that GNOME are going back to the administrative tools in menus by default, rather than the cc shell; are we following that decision?
[11:25] <seb128> mdke: yes we are
[11:25] <mdke> ok
[11:25] <seb128> mdke: we would probably have reverted to menus even if they would not have done that
[11:26] <mdke> oh right.
[11:26] <mdke> shame
[11:26] <seb128> mdke: not shame, most of the distro team was breathing in my neck for a revert :p
[11:27] <seb128> mdke: we will likely switch next cycle, there is still some speed, keyboard navigation, graphical space used, etc problems that could use some work before that
[11:27] <mdke> seb128: ah, well I liked the concept; dunno if it was too buggy or usability issues
[11:27] <seb128> lack of polish we will say
[11:28] <seb128> next cycle should be fine
[11:29] <mdke> seb128: cool
[11:35] <seb128> shawarma: openvpn (and maybe the other one as well) auth-dialog/gnome-two-password-dialog.h has a "Copyright (C) 2005, Red Hat, Inc." and debian/copyright status that "a) auth-dialog/* are Copyright 1999, 2000 Eazel, Inc."
[11:36] <seb128> and auth-dialog/main.c has
[11:36] <seb128> " * (C) Copyright 2004 Red Hat, Inc.
[11:36] <seb128>  *               2005 Tim Niemueller [www.niemueller.de]
[11:36] <seb128> "
[11:36] <seb128> not listed by debian/copyright neither
[11:38] <seb128> properties/nm-openvpn.c is "Copyright (C) 2005 Tim Niemueller<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:38] <seb128> s//"
[11:38] <seb128> and debian/copyright states "d) Everything else is Copyright 2004-2007 Red Hat, Inc."
[11:40] <seb128> shawarma: same for src, .c are copyight "Tim Niemueller<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:40] <seb128> shawarma: network-manager-openvpn is not good to go, please fix those
[11:42] <seb128> shawarma: network-manager-vpnc has the auth-dialog/gnome-two-password-dialog.h copyright to Red Hat problem, could you fix it as well?
[11:45] <jdong> have the archives been really slow recently?
[11:45] <jdong> pratt.canonical.com often time out
[11:45] <jdong> and the other 195.x.x.x one pulls like 0-15kb/s
[11:46] <jdong> and I'm sure it's not my link :)
[11:47] <shawarma> seb128: I'm on it.
[11:49] <tsmithe> when does ff take effect?
[11:49] <sistpoty> tsmithe: my ff starts in 10 minutes, though other ppl. from other time zones still have a few more hours ;)
[11:50] <seb128> shawarma: 10 days ago?
[11:50] <tsmithe> ok
[11:50] <shawarma> seb128: what?
[11:50] <tsmithe> can i be in utc-12?
[11:50] <sistpoty> tsmithe: I guess +-12 hours won't make a big difference
[11:50] <seb128> shawarma: feature freeze you mean?
[11:51] <tsmithe> sistpoty, ok thanks
[11:51] <ajmitch> seb128: universe feature freeze is today, so people are wanting packages in :)
[11:51] <seb128> shawarma: ups, that was for tsmithe
[11:51] <seb128> ajmitch: ah ok
[11:51] <tsmithe> seb128, yes
[11:51] <shawarma> seb128: Ah.
[11:53] <elmo> jdong: this is why there are mirrors
[11:54] <jdong> elmo: what's a good US mirror that's not two weeks behind archive.ubuntu.com?
[11:54] <jdong> kernel.org was kinda out of date the last time I tried it
[11:54] <jdong> and us. seems to still be the same servers
[11:55] <elmo> jdong: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archivemirrors
[11:55] <jdong> ooh very cool
[12:08] <shawarma> seb128: One of the file in the openvpn package lacks a copyright notice.. What to do?
[12:09] <shawarma> seb128__: ^^


[02:53] <bjsnider> hyperair, let me help with that banshee bug
[02:53] <bjsnider> i do use gnome-shell
[02:53] <hyperair> bjsnider: ooh nice. thanks.
[02:53] <bjsnider> and i have seen the plugin display as notify-sharp
[02:54] <bjsnider> is that what it should do?
[02:54] <hyperair> it's not.
[02:54] <hyperair> i'd like to see if i can just blank out the app_name field
[02:54] <bjsnider> i just turned it on and it calls itself banshee
[02:56] <bjsnider> are you sure this is still an active bug? that was submitted against alpha 3
[02:59] <hyperair> eh?
[02:59] <hyperair> O_o
[02:59] <hyperair> it calls itself banshee now?
[03:00] <hyperair> could it be that gnome shell doesn't use the app_name but uses the actual sending application's process name now?
[03:02] <bjsnider> what's the keyboard shortcut to advance to the next song?
[03:02] <hyperair> um XF86AudioNext?
[03:03] <hyperair> or something
[03:03] <hyperair> do you have a next track key?
[03:03] <hyperair> otherwise you can configure it in keyboard shortcuts
[03:03] <hyperair> or you can run in a terminal banshee --next
[03:03] <bjsnider> no
[03:04] <bjsnider> hold on a minute
[03:04] <bjsnider> oh, yeah it's still there
[03:05] <bjsnider> i tried the steps in comment 2 and it still changes to notify-sharp
[03:05] <bjsnider> if i click on that, a new icon appears called banshee
[03:06] <bjsnider> both icons have banshee's logo
[03:06] <hyperair> i see
[03:06] <bjsnider> also, there's a problem with the notification that appears when a new song is played. the markup tags, which look like html, are shown
[03:07] <hyperair> hmm
[03:07] <hyperair> that's a separate bug that's already fixed in the daily packages
[03:07] <bjsnider> in short, it's a disaster
[03:07] <bjsnider> ok, not really
[03:07] <bjsnider> cool
[03:07] <hyperair> heh
[03:08] <bjsnider> if i click on the new banshee icon, it tells my what song is playing, and then below that it says the song by the artist is ready
[03:08] <hyperair> new banshee icon?
[03:08] <hyperair> what new banshee icon?
[03:08] <bjsnider> the one i mentioned above
[03:09] <hyperair> O_o
[03:09] <bjsnider> that appeared when i clicked on the notify-sharp icon
[03:09] <hyperair> hmm
[03:10]  * hyperair has no idea what gnome shell is doing
[03:10] <hyperair> or what it's supposed to be diong
[03:10] <bjsnider> if i right-click on the notify-sharp icon, it gives me a bunch of banshee controls. if i right-click ont he banshee icon it gives me a gnome-shell type open/remove
[03:10]  * hyperair is confused
[03:11] <hyperair> screenshots might be helpful
[03:11] <bjsnider> ok, i will upload them to that bug
[03:11] <hyperair> thanks
[03:22] <bjsnider> hyperair, that's not working. i can't take screenshots of the notification icons. nothing is displayed in the shots
[03:22] <hyperair> bjsnider: hmm, really? maybe you could try using scrot instead
[03:22] <hyperair> with a timeout
[03:22] <hyperair> or something
[03:23] <hyperair> worst case scenario -- get a camera. =p
[03:33] <bjsnider> hyperair, they're posted
[03:35] <hyperair> hmm okay thanks
[03:37] <bjsnider> now, on the second icon, if i select "remove" gnome-shell crashes and restarts
[03:37] <hyperair> heh
[03:38] <bjsnider> i obviously have this plugin disabled most of the time
[03:40] <hyperair> plugin? you mean the notification thing is a plugin?
[03:40] <hyperair> hmm
[03:41] <bjsnider> yeah
[03:42] <hyperair> i see
[03:45] <bjsnider> well, it's an "extension"
[03:59] <hyperair> heh
[04:05] <hyperair> aha. i think i've fixed it.
[04:07] <hyperair> http://people.ubuntu.com/~hyperair/libnotify0.4-cil_0.4.0~r3032-4_all.deb
[04:07] <hyperair> bjsnider: can you install that, restart banshee and see if it fixes the issue?
[04:09] <bjsnider> hyperair, i will do so and get back to you tomorrow. it is time i get some sleep
[04:11] <hyperair> alright, good night. thanks for your help =)
[09:43] <ricotz> tseliot, hello
[09:43] <tseliot> hi ricotz
[09:44] <ricotz> tseliot, do you have time to upload a newer nvidia version to precise?
[09:44] <ricotz> like 290.03
[09:45] <tseliot> ricotz: maybe 285.05.09? 290.03 is a beta release
[09:46] <ricotz> i  guess 290.03 would be better
[09:46] <ricotz> since precise is pre-alpha
[09:48] <ricotz> tseliot, you can take this one https://edge.launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ppa/+sourcepub/2035792/+listing-archive-extra
[09:48] <tseliot> ricotz: I'm a bit uncomfortable about uploading closed experimental drivers. Especially since they can potentially fry your card
[09:49] <ricotz> they are not closed
[09:49] <tseliot> ricotz: closed as in proprietary
[09:49] <ricotz> but if you arent comfortable 285.05.09 would be nice too
[09:50] <ricotz> tseliot, ok, i thought you meant "not public released"
[09:50] <tseliot> ricotz: 285.05.09 is something I can upload to Precise and Oneiric (only nvidia-current-updates)
[09:51] <ricotz> tseliot, that would be great
[09:51] <tseliot> ricotz: I need to fglrx first though (LP: #855943)
[09:51] <ricotz> tseliot, no problem, thanks!
[09:51] <tseliot> yw
[13:20] <bjsnider> hyperair, yes, that fixed the problem
[13:32] <hyperair> bjsnider: awesome =)
[13:34] <bjsnider> hyperair, what was the problem?
[13:34] <hyperair> bjsnider: chained constructors in C#.
[13:35] <bjsnider> that's what i get for asking
[13:35] <hyperair> notify-sharp attempted to get the app name by using something like GetCallingAssembly().GetName().Name
[13:35] <hyperair> or something like that
[13:35] <hyperair> but because the constructor was chained... that call ended up yielding the notify-sharp.dll assembly rather than the application assembly
[13:35] <hyperair> changing this to GetEntryAssembly (i.e. the assembly the program started from) fixed the issue
[15:08] <bdmurray> are there any issues with RS880 [Radeon HD 4290]?
[16:58] <achiang> has anyone heard of a bug where moving your mouse to the left edge of the desktop causes the screen to go blank? this is unity in oneiric, with the nvidia driver
[16:58] <achiang> also, for an extra twist, synergy is running, and the 2nd machine is on the left
[17:04] <bjsnider> what's synergy?
[17:06] <achiang> it's like a virtual kvm
[17:07] <ricotz> bjsnider, if you were desperately waiting for these gconf fixes i have uploaded it now to my ppa
[17:07] <achiang> so you use one keyboard/mouse to control 2 separate machines
[17:07] <achiang> i don't actually know how it works though. does it run its own X server, jbrett?
[17:08] <bjsnider> ricotz, i applied the 4 patches and built an update locally a week ago
[17:08] <ricotz> bjsnider, ok ;)
[17:08] <bjsnider> achiang, can you test your system without synergy, just controlling one machine?
[17:09] <achiang> bjsnider: i'll ask the bug reporter to do that (i'm just a proxy)
[17:09] <achiang> thanks
[17:27] <jbrett> sorry, was having IRL conversation :)
[17:28] <jbrett> achiang, bjsnider: synergy is a daemon that grabs the keyboard/mouse events, and sends them over the network to a remote machine.  Kind-of like a KVM.
[17:30] <jbrett> I use it on my laptop/workstation so I can use the same keyboard/mouse for both laptop and workstation.  When my mouse hits the left side of the wkstation screen, synergy moves it and the keyboard focus to my laptop, then visa-versa when I leave the right side of the laptop screen.
[17:31] <jbrett> If I remove the laptop from synergy (so my mouse never "leaves" the screen), the problem goes away.
[17:32] <jbrett> the problem is when the mouse comes back to the wkstation screen (which is running oneric/unity), then the screen goes black for ~2-3sec.
[17:32] <achiang> can you turn off synergy?
[17:32] <achiang> and see if it still happens?
[17:32] <jbrett> yes, and I imagine the problem will go away.
[17:33] <jbrett> since my mouse will never disappear :)
[17:33] <jbrett> I'll do it, just a sec..
[17:34] <jbrett> so yes, kill synergy, and problem goes away as expected..
[17:35] <jbrett> with synergy running, but not connected to another synergy machine, problem also goes away (as expected)
[17:35] <Sarvatt> jbrett: try xset -dpms ?
[17:36] <jbrett> Sarvatt: ok, that made the problem go away, but I confess I have no clue why :)
[17:37] <Sarvatt> me neither, its a synergy bug and I dont use it :)
[17:37] <Sarvatt> putting your monitor in power savings mode when you go to the other pc
[17:37] <jbrett> hmm, ok.
[17:37] <Sarvatt> i just found the workaround via google http://synergy-foss.org/tracker/issues/2778
[17:38]  * jbrett bows to awesome google-fu of Sarvatt  :)
[17:39] <Sarvatt> sounds like an old bug with synergy though thats been around for years :(
[17:39] <jbrett> anyway, thanks.  I know there are a lot of changes around this area between maverick & oneric..  I'll try to track down a real fix.
[17:40] <Sarvatt> oh it worked properly in maverick?
[17:40] <jbrett> yes.
[17:41] <jbrett> I finally got off my curmudgeon-horse and decided I should give unity a fair try, so I upgraded my workstation.
[17:44] <Sarvatt> you dont get a lock screen or anything when you come back to the 11.10 screen do you?
[17:44] <jbrett> do, it just blanks for a couple seconds.
[17:44] <jbrett> er, s/do/no/
[17:47] <jbrett> totally looks like a synergy bug though, as it apparently happens on windoze machines too, from that bug report..
[17:50] <Sarvatt> maybe try downgrading synergy?
[17:57] <jbrett> yeah, it may come to that.  Looks like it's a bug in newer versions of synergy (since the one that was in maverick).
[17:57] <jbrett> Sarvatt: thanks for your help and google-fu in any case :)
[17:59] <Sarvatt> yeah i'm seeing some screensaver dpms hacks in the diff between the packages
[18:04] <jbrett> looks like there's a fix, but not targetted until 1.4.6: http://synergy-foss.org/tracker/issues/696
[18:07] <Sarvatt> - synergy-1.3.3-X11-DPMS.patch
[18:07] <Sarvatt> call DPMSOn() when entering screen to make sure powersaving mode is
[18:07] <Sarvatt> canceled on X11 client systems when the fake mouse / keyb become active
[18:07] <Sarvatt> ah hah
[18:08] <Sarvatt> nevermind, thats what actually caused the problem
[18:08] <Sarvatt> and was added in 1.3.3
[18:21] <bjsnider> jbrett, are they too far apart or can you use a real kvm switch?
[18:22] <Sarvatt> bjsnider: kvm wouldn't be seamless as you move between monitors
[18:23] <bjsnider> no, it would require a couple seconds
[18:58] <jbrett> bjsnider: yeah, a kvm doesn't do the same thing.  Using synergy is kinda like extending your desktop onto the other machine (except that you can't drag windows back & forth).
[18:58] <jbrett> but you can copy/paste, etc...  It's really nice.
[18:59] <jbrett> turning off dpms works as a workaround for now.  It looks like there's a fix upstream, although no release with the fix yet.
[18:59] <jbrett> http://synergy-foss.org/tracker/issues/696
[20:21] <Sarvatt> jbrett: might want to do yourself a favor and try out xubuntu if you really want ffm, it's pretty much abandoned in gnome 3 and unity
[20:21] <tjaalton> nonsense
[20:21] <jbrett> wow, I hope not.
[20:21] <tjaalton> just disable the top-bar menu
[20:22] <jbrett> oh, you're responding to what I typed in #u-desktop?
[20:22] <Sarvatt> what it's usable now just getting rid of the global menu?
[20:22] <Sarvatt> ok I change that statement to just gnome3 :)
[20:22] <jbrett> yeah, I don't see any way to use ffm and the global menu.
[20:22] <tjaalton> though I've switched to fullscreen windows for the most part, but ffm works within the terminator window for instance
[20:23] <tjaalton> actually, you can hit ctrl or was it alt to "lock" the menu, and then navigate to it
[20:23] <tjaalton> or something like that
[20:23] <tjaalton> can't remember, it's mentioned on the bug
[20:23] <Sarvatt> I dont use it, just remember all the complaining about it being unusable in 11.04, guess they were just bugs that were fixed
[20:23] <tjaalton> bug 674138
[20:23] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 674138 in unity (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) ""Global" appmenu breaks sloppy focus (affects: 79) (dups: 5) (heat: 418)" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674138
[20:27] <Sarvatt> I like that bug :) "Maybe convincing MacOs developers to change their behavior/add a configuration option will do the trick? ;-)"
[20:27] <jbrett> heh.
[20:29] <jbrett> I'm trying really hard not to just disable stuff I dislike at first (like the GM), as I assume there was some thought and effort put into it, and once I get over the "this isn't the same as what I'm used to" stage, I might actually like it :)
[21:12] <mdeslaur> anybody got an issue in oneiric where all of a sudden the left mouse button stops working, but the right one still works? a couple of window switches, and it starts working again?


[14:23] <m4n1sh> bhuvan-a1k: ping
[14:34] <jbicha> m4n1sh: your email worked this time :)
[14:34] <m4n1sh> jbicha: I subscribed in digest mode