[06:48] <tiox> So what's with touching Ubuntu as of late?
[06:56] <chu> I guess we'll know in <24 hours.
[07:08] <tiox> I call smartphone OS.
[09:18] <jussi> I call rubbish :P
[09:18] <jussi> you have no idea whats going to hit you :P
[09:18] <jussi> (nor do I for that matter)
[11:45] <elky> jussi, if it's rubbish, turning the fan off might be wise :P
[12:01] <dwatkins> I'm expecting a games console.
[12:02] <chu> That'd be quite cool.
[12:04] <dwatkins> considering the amount of effort Valve are putting in to getting Steam and some games ported, it wouldn't surprise me.
[12:08] <chu> Hopefully.
[12:24] <com12> any idea of what the annoucement will be
[12:39] <Catbuntu> Hi
[12:39] <Catbuntu> Hi bkerensa :)
[12:41] <Catbuntu> Oh wrong nick, sorry
[12:41] <chu> I imagine he'll begin soon.
[12:41] <chu> But, I have been awake an ungodly amount of time and my body is starting to give up on me.
[12:41] <Catbuntu> Oh, poor chu
[12:42] <chu> I did it to myself, so no sympathy. See how long you can stay awake into the new year. It's not easy!
[12:53] <Catbuntu> haha
[12:57] <dwatkins> I made the mistake of staying awake all night the night before new year
[12:58] <chu> You do it the night of new year!
[13:28] <Catbuntu> That's why I use Mint, if anybody is interested: http://www.catbuntu.me/2013/01/my-2013-purpose-and-why-do-i-use-linux.html
[13:39] <k1l> hmm. i see some problems in your point of view (which is ok, since its your opinion after all): listen-to-community; canoncical didnt remove gnome2, gnome dropped gnome2; why talking about a new user when you are not a new user?
[14:57] <topyli> Neshemah: btw you don't have to change distributions just to change your desktop environment :-)
[16:05] <Neshemah> topyli, I know, but e.g. Cinnamon on Ubuntu looks weird.
[17:45] <JoseeAntonioR> The hangout for discussion about the product with Benjamin Kerensa, Bilal Akhtar and me has just started :)
[17:47] <vibhav> Aw yeah
[17:47] <mhall119> \o/
[17:47] <popey> JoseeAntonioR: the omg post needs updating with the url?
[17:48] <mhall119> bkerensa-ofc: is the OMG page going to be updated with the embedded hangout?
[17:48] <vibhav> Yes
[17:49] <JoseeAntonioR> mhall119: little problem, but working on it
[17:49] <JoseeAntonioR> popey: it's being worked on
[17:50] <highvoltage> hi
[17:50] <cielak> hi!
[17:50] <superdug_> so whats the announcement?
[17:50] <davidcalle> Hey!
[17:50] <popey> superdug_: coming soon
[17:50] <JoseeAntonioR> OMG! Ubuntu! is now updated :)
[17:51] <highvoltage> I guess you'd need to have Unity Touch before you could have any of those
[17:52] <AbsintheSyringe> highvoltage, share the same thought :)
[17:52] <bkerensa-ofc> mhall119: its up now
[17:53] <bkerensa-ofc> mhall119: caching
[17:53] <mhall119> bkerensa-ofc: watching :)
[17:53] <popey> s/utouch/oif/
[17:53] <bkerensa-ofc> mhall119: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/ubuntu-product-launch-omg-google-hangout
[17:53] <mhall119> yeah, no more utouch
[17:53] <popey> what other suggestions did omg come up with? you've said phone, what else?
[17:53] <mhall119> bobble heads
[17:53] <superdug_> "almost touch it" ... better be a damned tablet
[17:53] <bigcalm> Best thing about this count down timer? 00:00:00 is when I can turn my machine off ;)
[17:53] <popey> Ubuntu fridges!
[17:54] <mhall119> toasters!
[17:54] <vibhav> These are going to be the longest 7 minutes of my life
[17:54] <highvoltage> Ubuntu would also be more useful on tablets than on phones
[17:54] <davidcalle> Touch enabled glasses.
[17:54] <highvoltage> (even more useful than android in many cases)
[17:54] <mhall119> oh,nice davidcalle
[17:54] <vibhav> Something awesome!
[17:54] <cielak> ubuntu for eyewear? sounds familiar
[17:54] <ubuntubhoy> Phones requires vendor inclusion
[17:54] <davidcalle> cielak, hehe
[17:54] <mhall119> poke your eye to open the dash
[17:54] <davmor2> Oh just tell them already, it's an ubuntu wig
[17:54] <bigcalm> davmor2: a merkin?
[17:54] <davidcalle> To open a file, double blink
[17:55] <bigcalm> davmor2: it'd fit...
[17:55] <cielak> mhall119: open the dash, and *it* pokes your eye? :)
[17:55] <highvoltage> maybe it's an Ubuntu Holodeck. I'd sell everything I have for one.
[17:55] <superdug_> is there some kind of announcement event? or we just waiting for the site to change from a counter to the ubuntu powered microwave page?
[17:55] <mhall119> loving JoseeAntonioR's wall in the background :)
[17:55] <superdug_> or is this said event?
[17:55] <bigcalm> I do hope that it goes 'ping'
[17:56] <mhall119> superdug_: waiting for the announcement and watching OMG's live coverage: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/ubuntu-product-launch-omg-google-hangout
[17:56] <bashrc`> I think it's going to be an Ubuntu cigarette lighter
[17:56] <cjwatson> I'd love an Ubuntu jelly-bean dispenser, personally
[17:56] <popey> Is one of you guys playing minecraft?  Nothing. They just wanted to put a timer up on their page
[18:00] <RollinV2> lol
[18:00] <SeanS> lol
[18:00] <RobinJ> PWHAHAHAHA
[18:00] <RobinJ> website down XD
[18:00] <RollinV2> epic fail
[18:00] <Thundarr> toast!
[18:01] <Neshemah> IT'S
[18:01] <Neshemah> IT'S A SQUARE
[18:01] <irv> TELL US THE ANNOUNCEMENT
[18:01] <isantop> It's a toaster.
[18:01] <irv> or do these guys even know
[18:01] <highvoltage> jono: surely you know what it is already :)
[18:01] <Neshemah> Oh no, I selected it hahaha
[18:01] <RobinJ> check omgubuntu
[18:01] <isantop> It's toasted the website already
[18:01] <RobinJ> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/ubuntu-phone-os-unveiled-by-canonical
[18:01] <bigcalm> It's a server that can't handle the load
[18:01] <highvoltage> it's up for me but just at 00:00:00
[18:01] <RobinJ> omg noes
[18:01] <RobinJ> omgubuntu: 504 Gateway Time-out
[18:01] <neven> they run server on IIS? :)
[18:01] <inetpro> 504 Gateway Time-out
[18:01] <Cantide> neven, :D
[18:01] <Thundarr> lean on any ubuntu site just a little, and they collapse?
[18:01] <RobinJ> well it says ubuntu phone unveiled
[18:01] <irv> they should host their site on IIS
[18:01] <irv> then they wouldn't have these issues
[18:01] <irv> =p
[18:01] <Neshemah> lol there's a live show on Youtube
[18:02] <isantop> OMG!'s got it. It's a phone
[18:02] <spjt> We already knew about the OS, I just want to know if there's any hardware for it.
[18:02] <DavidBradbury> I can't ping 'em
[18:02] <jqmmes_> ubuntu-phone
[18:02] <jqmmes_> holy crap
[18:02] <superfly> loading...
[18:02] <beethoven8201> how'd you get it to load?
[18:02] <superfly> loading...
[18:02] <Neshemah> OMGUBUNTU ALSO CRASHED
[18:02] <Neshemah> 503
[18:02] <Neshemah> *503
[18:02] <jqmmes_> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/ubuntu-phone-os-unveiled-by-canonical
[18:02] <Neshemah> **504
[18:02] <mfisch> omgubuntu is dead too
[18:02] <Thundarr> so now they can spend forever working on shit for a phone instead of optimizing the proper OS. really nice.
[18:02] <superfly> heh.
[18:02] <spjt> where's the thing on youtube?
[18:02] <Neshemah> I'd like to see what does the Canonical guy say
[18:03] <Thundarr> isnt that what MS is doing? working ass backwards?
[18:03] <highvoltage> hey tell rickspencer3 to join the channel :)
[18:03] <pleia2> just a reminder folks, this channel is like other Ubuntu channels language-wise, please watch it :)
[18:03] <SeanS> http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/2/3827922/ubuntu-phone-os-announcement
[18:03] <tiox> It's a competition to the bottom of the multi-device pile, and Canonical is late!
[18:03] <yungblood> bass akwards
[18:03] <superdug_> how do they have it already?
[18:03] <RobinJ> epic fail, canonical :p
[18:03] <cjwatson> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU
[18:03] <Neshemah> Who's that indian kid?
[18:03] <retard> is the surprise that the site is down
[18:04] <popey> Neshemah: bilal
[18:04] <tiox> I
[18:04] <Neshemah> No retard, that was expected
[18:04] <tiox> m still stuck at the timer!
[18:04] <Neshemah> Who's him popey?
[18:04] <tiox> I'm*
[18:04] <Neshemah> He manages the server?
[18:04] <OptiWork> page working yet?
[18:04] <cdavis> nope
[18:04] <isantop> It's on The Verge too.
[18:05] <superdug_> so ubuntu leaked it?
[18:05] <cdavis> someone really borked that timer up, they must have written an rm -rf / when the timer reached zero
[18:05] <Neshemah> Who's that Canonical guy with glasses and bald?
[18:05] <popey> Neshemah: jono
[18:05] <retard> oh a phone
[18:05] <AlanBell> superdug_: well that will be a press release with an embargo time
[18:05] <virtu> ubuntu for smartphones
[18:05] <spjt> cdavis: Everyone who had the timer open tried to load it at once.
[18:05] <virtu> engadget goes hands on
[18:05] <Thundarr> does ubuntu for nexus 7 actually work
[18:05] <tiox> I woke up before 21:00 to see this crap. Bad advertising juju Canonical.
[18:05] <jqmmes_> http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/2/3827922/ubuntu-phone-os-announcement
[18:05] <jqmmes_> there
[18:05] <Neshemah> Who's jono?
[18:06] <AlanBell> Neshemah: community manager
[18:06] <highvoltage> jono: know any specs on the phone yet?
[18:06] <ikonia> Neshemah: the fact that you just randomly asked that suggested you may already know
[18:06] <beethoven8201> http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/02/ubuntu-for-smartphones/
[18:06] <Thundarr> lol, I'm banned from the verge.
[18:06] <tiox> Actually, before 13:00 sorry.
[18:06] <RobinJ> lol?
[18:06] <RobinJ> jono, http://socloseyoucanalmostbobbleit.com/
[18:06] <tiox> I get time confused sometimes.
[18:06] <superdug_> so why does ubuntu think their foray into the phone world will be better than mer, webos, mozilla, etc ?
[18:07] <tiox> There we go, Ubuntuphone. I said it before. When I was fanatical, I said it WOULD happen.
[18:07] <Neshemah> ikonia, I read an interview on LinuxFormat magazine.
[18:07] <ikonia> I'm sure it says who he is
[18:07] <Neshemah> Well, I just read the title :P
[18:07] <trimeta> So, wait, does this entirely replace the existing phone OS (meaning that none of your Android apps will work), or does it just let you connect to a KVM and run a full Ubuntu desktop?
[18:07] <tiox> We all knew this was going to happen.
[18:07] <cielak> QUESTION: How about apps compatibility? Does this new OS will mean we'll need to wait till developers do some apps on it, or will it be compatible with e.g. android apps or ubuntu ones?
[18:07] <RollinV2> same reason they think unity is the best thing ever, distortion field
[18:07] <balloons> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoXpLUr5WB4
[18:07] <snwh> omgubuntu is up
[18:07] <spjt> I got ubuntu.com to load, it just shows the same screen with no timer :)
[18:07] <RollinV2> i bet webup8 wont even report on this lol
[18:07] <RobinJ> someone made a fanpage for jono lol
[18:07] <tiox> Unity is pretty damn good for what it is. Hence I don't use it.
[18:08] <RollinV2> tiox, lol
[18:08] <highvoltage> mhall119: was this a (or the) skunkworks project?
[18:08] <cjwatson> front page linking to http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone now
[18:08] <RobinJ> well, the dev portal says something about ubuntu phone
[18:08] <RobinJ> http://developer.ubuntu.com/
[18:09] <tiox> OMG I will wit until the influx of idiots and dumb media grab their press media, the page is too slow for me.
[18:09] <popey> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoXpLUr5WB4  trailer video...
[18:09] <tiox> wait*
[18:09] <RollinV2> http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/2/3827922/ubuntu-phone-os-announcement
[18:09] <mhall119> highvoltage: there was some, but unfortunately we didn't kick of Skunkworks in time for there to be a lot of involvement
[18:10] <czajkowski> cjwatson: cheers
[18:10] <DavidBradbury> There will be an SDK, apps will be able to be programmed both using HTML5 and QDK
[18:10] <DavidBradbury> Sorry, QML
[18:10] <RollinV2> same as windows 8 rt apps , html5 base
[18:10] <FabianS> Yay, moar slow webapp shit!
[18:11] <IdleOne> !langauge
[18:11] <ikonia> tone down the langauge please
[18:11] <RobinJ> HTML5? ok i'm in. i'm afraid it'd be too good to be true, but it sounds like a way to get away from the mess that is programming for android or iOS
[18:12] <kikirikou> when is the next live hangout ?
[18:12] <DavidBradbury> I just hope that there will be a proper web render.  Canonical failed to excite me. Rubs my jollies the wrong way.
[18:15] <ubuntubhoy> Does anyone know if test 'ROM's' will be made available for current devices, and if so when ?
[18:15] <highvoltage> well I guess they just want to build some excitement around it. it's admittingly a bit boring considering that the intentions for an ubuntu phone and the official youtube video has been available for a while.
[18:15] <Calinou> Neshemah: suddenly: xfce
[18:15] <Thundarr> Calinou: you might disagree, but this is not how you market product. "we might ship this year, even though we don't have a vendor"
[18:15] <Calinou> why doesn't this calm down all hate? :D
[18:15] <highvoltage> so it did end up being somewhat of an unannouncement.
[18:15] <Neshemah> It's not hate Calinou.
[18:15] <Calinou> Thundarr: since when ubuntu is being marketed by vendors
[18:16] <isantop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpWHJDLsqTU
[18:16] <FabianS> Calinou: People hate change in itself.
[18:16] <Neshemah> I like XFCE too.
[18:16] <Calinou> FabianS: of course they always did :) i don't personally
[18:16] <Neshemah> I try to be constructive...
[18:16] <KurtKraut> That is what happens if you use Apache+Squid for high visit volume website instead of nginx+Varnish. So Canonical, next time try nginx.
[18:16] <Thundarr> it has to be marketed by whichever vendor they partner with.
[18:16] <Neshemah> Without Ubuntu Mint wouldn't exist, at all.
[18:16] <FabianS> I don't either. Gnome3 is much much better than Gnome 2 ever was.
[18:16] <Calinou> if I don't like unity (lacks productivity/customability), then I move on and use xfce, which is _better_ than gnome 2 imo
[18:16] <Neshemah> But Canonical reacts bad, soooooooo bad.
[18:16] <Calinou> less obsolete
[18:16] <FabianS> Gnome 2 was an unholy mess of bad design and technology.
[18:16] <Neshemah> Yes Calinou, that's right.
[18:16] <Neshemah> I preffer Cinnamon, too.
[18:16] <Calinou> KurtKraut: set it up for them then, mr. harshlinux :>
[18:16] <Neshemah> But the newbies don't know about Xubuntu nor xubuntu-desktop.
[18:16] <RollinV2> 10.10 best
[18:17] <Neshemah> They think Ubuntu is *only* Unity.
[18:17] <Neshemah> RollinV2 +1
[18:17] <FabianS> Gnome 3 is at least consistantly styled and has introduced some new approach.
[18:17] <Calinou> Neshemah: newbies get what newbies deserve, non-newbies do not
[18:17] <Neshemah> So they say "what the heck is that" and go to Mint.
[18:17] <RollinV2> funny thing is 10.10 wasnt even a LTS
[18:17] <RollinV2> and everyone still loved it
[18:17] <RobinJ> QUESTION: Are we going to have to purchase a €600 phone with it preinstalled, or can we just pick up a second hand Android phone for €50 somewhere and flash it to Ubuntu Phone?
[18:17] <Calinou> the derivatives need more promotion, +1
[18:17] <FabianS> But people seem to not understand UIs that don't work like Windows 1.0
[18:17] <sikory> they should have gone with scaleengine.com
[18:17] <Calinou> BETTER QUESTION: are you even going to buy a smartphone/tablet?
[18:17] <KurtKraut> Calinou, sure! And they don't need to provide me root access. It is just a matter of  'aptitude install nginx varnish -y' :P
[18:17] <Neshemah> Calinou, look at this: http://www.catbuntu.me/2013/01/my-2013-purpose-and-why-do-i-use-linux.html
[18:17] <Thundarr> I can't use mint. I might have some jewish blood, and clem wants me to burn in an oven.
[18:18]  * Calinou answers: "no, desktops are faster and have better performance-to-price ratio!"
[18:18] <tiox> Okay, here's the rational for someone looking between GNOME 2.x and GNOME-Shell/Unity/Cinnamon: "It looks like Windows..."
[18:18] <sikory> they are so ridiculously expensive
[18:18] <Neshemah> I tried to explain this not being a hater.
[18:18] <jqmmes_> uhm... will they lack python support :(?
[18:18] <sikory> everybody has python support
[18:18] <Calinou> KurtKraut: nginx lacks modules so it is harder to install things like SSL, no?
[18:18] <Neshemah> XFCE is lovely, it's a GNOME 2 replacement, I agree. I used it and liked for a long time, but I preffer Cinnamon or perhaps MATE.
[18:18] <Calinou> sikory: everybody has an i7
[18:18] <FabianS> RobinJ: You can't really put third-party operating systems on mobile phones.
[18:18] <tiox> Henceforth, it looks like Windows, people like GNOME 2.x.
[18:18] <Calinou> python, lol
[18:18] <RollinV2> purple is color of the year
[18:18] <RobinJ> jqmmes_, well, it's open source, so it just depends on whether someone occupies himself with porting python
[18:18] <FabianS> RobinJ: All SoCs feature lots and lots of propietary drivers.
[18:18] <Calinou> FabianS: if the bootloader is unlockable you can
[18:18] <FabianS> That can't be ported at all.
[18:18] <FabianS> No, you can't.
[18:18] <Calinou> also, that
[18:19] <FabianS> It might boot up.
[18:19] <KurtKraut> Calinou, I wouldn't say harder, just different. Requires re-learning. But the performance benefit pays off.
[18:19] <jqmmes_> you i know, but on the site they dont talk about it... only c,c++ js
[18:19] <RobinJ> FabianS, that depends; it's both linux, so the core would remain the same
[18:19] <FabianS> But that's pretty much it.
[18:19] <RollinV2> need processor support
[18:19] <tiox> Blame Microsoft's 25 years of cramming the start button down our throats.
[18:19] <FabianS> RobinJ: Android is Linux too.
[18:19] <FabianS> But they have completely different drivers.
[18:19] <RobinJ> FabianS, .... that's what i just said
[18:19] <RollinV2> FabianS, dont tell people that. lol
[18:19] <sikory> Calinou: i7?
[18:19] <Neshemah> XFCE is a bit obsolete, too. It uses GTK2.
[18:19] <FabianS> Even Custom ROMs don't really change anything.
[18:19] <sikory> I use a 9 year old pentium 4
[18:19] <Jordan_U> Thundarr: That kind of comment is clearly innapropriate.
[18:19] <RobinJ> FabianS, true, but you can replace drivers on rooter android phones too
[18:19] <FabianS> The replace some userland. That's it.
[18:19] <Neshemah> Not as obsolete as MATE/Gnome 2.
[18:19] <KurtKraut> Calinou, and when I say performance benefit, it is a very good one. In my scenario, 10x more concurrent connections where supported for the same website.
[18:19] <FabianS> Because you don't have access to drivers for any other kernel versions.
[18:19] <RobinJ> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/ubuntu-phone-os-unveiled-by-canonical
[18:19] <RobinJ> it's up
[18:19] <Neshemah> But to win users Canonical should so something like Cinnamon, but it's too late.
[18:20] <Calinou> Neshemah: i don't use mint because it 1) lacks polishing 2) is amateur (ads on website? no thanks)
[18:20] <Calinou> it is also even slower than ubuntu :D
[18:20] <sikory> ads on the internet? where?
[18:20] <tiox> Neshemah: Before MATRE, XFCE was the only GNOME 2-like interface. And I kinda liked it.
[18:20] <Neshemah> Calinou, and what about ads on the launcher?
[18:20] <RollinV2> who seriously would argue gnome3 is the proper evolution of gnome 2?
[18:20] <tiox> MATE*
[18:20] <Calinou> KurtKraut: ah, ok
[18:20] <Neshemah> I preffer XFCE to MATE too, tiox.
[18:20] <Calinou> Neshemah: xfce here, xubuntu
[18:20] <Neshemah> But Cinnamon to all the others.
[18:20] <AlanBell> bkerensa-ofc: so how much is it, and when can I buy it?
[18:20] <RobinJ> “We also invited a way to use an app without having to use buttons at all via a voice-controlled ‘HUD’.
[18:20] <RobinJ> hmmm interesting idea
[18:20] <Neshemah> Calinou, but Xubuntu isn't managed by Canonical.
[18:20] <Calinou> I STARTED A DE WAR, I'M SO AWESOME
[18:20] <Neshemah> I like it.
[18:20] <Calinou> Neshemah: yeah, so it is community-managed like mint
[18:20] <tiox> Calinou: There is no war.
[18:20] <Neshemah> What I don't like is the way that Canonical manages the things.
[18:20] <RollinV2> RobinJ, apple and google already do that with voice search
[18:21] <RobinJ> But the first pure Ubuntu  Phone devices will appear towards the end of the year. << ok don't get too excited yet
[18:21] <Neshemah> Like... forcing the newbies to use Unity.
[18:21] <Calinou> windows 8 has lots of "adware" too
[18:21] <bkerensa-ofc> Any questions or Rick Spencer or Jono Bacon?
[18:21] <Neshemah> Mint shows all the options very clearly.
[18:21] <FabianS> Voice controll will probably stay a boring gadget forever.
[18:21] <RobinJ> RollinV2, HUD, not voice search
[18:21] <tiox> My point is, the majrity will flock to what looks like Windows' taskbar, solely out of familiarity.
[18:21] <FabianS> Nobody really uses S-Voice or Siri.
[18:21] <Neshemah> Whereas there's nothing about derivatives at Ubuntu's download page.
[18:21] <tiox> majority*
[18:21] <FabianS> Excapt for fooling around with it.
[18:21] <RobinJ> Unlike Android, Ubuntu Phone OS has been designed from the ground up to deliver a ‘crisper, sharper’ experience on low-powered devices – a market segment Shuttleworth sees as being key to adoption.
[18:21] <Calinou> FabianS: +1
[18:21] <Calinou> but smartphone/tablet keyboards are really slow :3
[18:21] <Calinou> physical keyboards are just so much better
[18:21] <FabianS> But people don't want them anymore.
[18:21] <Calinou> yeah
[18:21] <RobinJ> ok this gives some vagua answer to my question :p Although Canonical’s ‘primary market will be selling Ubuntu Phones via retail, users will be able to download and install the phone OS on certain device handsets.
[18:22] <Neshemah> Calinou, Lubuntu is amazing, too.
[18:22] <FabianS> The era of physical keyboards on phones is really over.
[18:22] <Calinou> like wired stuff... ethernet, which is fast, wired mouses/keyboards, almost no latency... :(
[18:22] <RollinV2> depends on need, if you type daily.. you need a keyboard somewhere
[18:22] <Calinou> I use these, but the general user 1) uses all-in-one computer, 2) wireless mouse/keyboard, 3) wifi
[18:22] <Neshemah> If all the Ubuntu family dies, I'd go with Manjaro :P
[18:22] <FabianS> And sadly the last generation with physical keyboard kinda sucks.
[18:22] <FabianS> Milestone 2 and Desire Z are simply too slow for android.
[18:22] <Calinou> Neshemah: noone uses manjaro, I stay away from no-one-uses-it distros
[18:22] <tiox> GImme Compiz, and I am happy. :P
[18:22] <sikory> RollinV2: you don't want to use a phone if you type daily
[18:22] <Neshemah> But at the moment, long live to ubuntu and mint.
[18:22] <FabianS> And 512 MB RAM is not enough.
[18:22] <mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile for developing apps for the phone OS
[18:22] <Neshemah> Calinou, Manjaro  = Arch
[18:22] <Calinou> yeah
[18:22] <RollinV2> sikory, exactly
[18:22] <mhall119> jono: JoseeAntonioR ^^
[18:22] <FabianS> Android needs at least a gig and a multi-core.
[18:22] <Neshemah> Lots of people use Arch.
[18:22] <FabianS> Else it will run like crap.
[18:23] <Calinou> it is compatible but manjaro is not supported in #archlinux
[18:23] <Calinou> or archlinux forums
[18:23] <RobinJ> Mobile development suite will be available later this week.  But only 512 M in my phone.
[18:23] <RollinV2> FabianS, naw. ubuntu runs like crap because the carriers put spamware on top of android
[18:23] <FabianS> Which isn't nearly enough.
[18:23] <FabianS> RollinV2: Actually Cyanogen Mod runs worse on mine.
[18:23] <sikory> 1 GB ram here
[18:23] <Calinou> RollinV2: +1, one more reason I dislike smartphones/tablets, lots of crapware and locked bootloader
[18:24] <sikory> (PC)
[18:24] <sikory> I bought a nokia 100 today
[18:24] <sikory> best phone ever
[18:24] <Calinou> it is way better to have a desktop where you can change the HW easily, you are not locked in, but there is no mobility
[18:24] <Calinou> you don't need mobility most of the time
[18:24] <FabianS> Just compare Android to Meego.
[18:24] <Calinou> if you do, then it is a good time to "disconnect" for a bit :p
[18:24] <Calinou> nokia makes overpriced phones today
[18:24] <FabianS> The Nokia N9 actually has the same SoC as my Milestone 2.
[18:24]  * Calinou points to nokia lumia 920
[18:24] <FabianS> The exact same one.
[18:24] <Calinou> 900 euros? no thanks
[18:24] <RobinJ> this looks truly epic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoXpLUr5WB4&feature=player_embedded
[18:25] <FabianS> And the N9 runs like butter with 20+ apps backgrounded.
[18:25] <sikory> many people need a smartphone because they are addicted to it
[18:25] <FabianS> Android lags like crazy
[18:25] <FabianS> On the MS2.
[18:25] <Calinou> android is slow, java :|
[18:25] <FabianS> Java isn't that slow.
[18:25] <Calinou> why can't people use luajit which is pretty fast, and even simpler than java?
[18:25] <Calinou> i know
[18:25] <FabianS> But it needs tons of RAM.
[18:25] <FabianS> Luajit probably isn't as fast as Java.
[18:25] <sikory> only use C
[18:25] <sikory> and asm
[18:25] <Calinou> lol
[18:25] <FabianS> Java is not that much slower than C anyway.
[18:25] <sikory> I only use C
[18:26] <Calinou> FabianS: luajit is about 5% slower than C usually. and don't forget it is even simpler than java to learn and use
[18:26] <sikory> and python when speed doesn't matter
[18:26] <highvoltage> in many cases java is faster than pure C
[18:26] <Calinou> high level, not mid-level
[18:26] <FabianS> But Lua sucks balls.
[18:26] <FabianS> :p
[18:26] <RollinV2> ubuntu offices kinda nice at @ 14:00 in that youtube video
[18:26] <Calinou> why? :P
[18:26] <sikory> highvoltage: then you're doing it wrong
[18:26] <bkerensa-ofc> Any questions for Jono Bacon?
[18:26] <FabianS> It's probably much too simple to write bug applications and the syntax is kinda horrible.
[18:26] <Calinou> lots of RAM == I can say "RAM" is cheap for desktops, but not for handheld devices
[18:27] <highvoltage> sikory: not necessarily. (ftr I don't use Java)
[18:27] <FabianS> Power consumption is an issue.
[18:27] <Calinou> oops, move the quotes around a bit :P
[18:27] <FabianS> 2 GB of RAM pull quite a lot of juice.
[18:27] <sikory> highvoltage: me neither
[18:27] <RollinV2> bkerensa-ofc, what phone bare min stats are they targeting with ubuntu phone OS?
[18:27] <Calinou> smartphones/tablets use ARM CPUs and integrated GPUs already, as if they can't save power
[18:27] <einonm> So how does the revenue stream for Canonical work for this phone OS?
[18:27] <Calinou> people always keep brightness to max, and 3G enabled all the time, and "push" too
[18:27] <sikory> but system language has to be faster than something running in a VM for the same calls
[18:27] <FabianS> And ARM CPUs are really bad on memory bandwith.
[18:27] <Calinou> that's why their phones last no more than 5 hours
[18:28] <Calinou> x86 ftw! noisy but fast. :3
[18:28] <sikory> Calinou: don't forget bluetooth
[18:28] <FabianS> Bluetooth doesn't affect battery at all.
[18:28] <Calinou> bluetooth *vomits a frame pointer*
[18:28] <sikory> a noisy phone isn't really useful
[18:28] <Calinou> bluetooth daemon is disabled on my computer, saves 20MB ram and boot time
[18:28] <FabianS> Like GPS doesn't.
[18:28] <Calinou> I have no bluetooth device 8)
[18:28] <sikory> I use haiku, that saves boot time like a maniac
[18:29] <FabianS> But I expect a smartphone to have push and 3g on all the time.
[18:29] <FabianS> So that's no excuse for horrible battery life.
[18:29] <RollinV2> qml .. oh boy
[18:29] <sikory> I expect a smartphone to drain a lot
[18:29] <sikory> ... of my attention
[18:29] <sikory> span
[18:29] <Mercury> I wonder who the manufactures are going to be out of the gate.
[18:29] <Calinou> FabianS: push is beyond pointless, it's like automatic updating
[18:30] <FabianS> ?
[18:30] <kvarley1> Is there any word on whether the Ubuntu Phone OS will also do a similar thing to Ubuntu for Android? If it could act as phone and desktop it would be amazing
[18:30] <FabianS> I want to get notified if I get mails or chat messages.
[18:30] <FabianS> Not 20 minutes later.
[18:30] <RollinV2> ubuntu OS might catch on if carriers can fully brand the OS and include tons of adware
[18:30] <FabianS> Hell, my first phone had "push". It's called SMS.
[18:30] <tiox> RollinV2: lol!
[18:30] <Calinou> >2013
[18:30] <Calinou> >SMS
[18:30] <FabianS> So I expect my 400€ Phone to be able to do the same.
[18:30] <RollinV2> voice = data, think abou that next time you look at your cell bill
[18:30] <Calinou> I wonder why MMS still exists. can't phone manufacturers use HTML instead? :<
[18:31] <Calinou> FabianS: notifications are not your friend, they're only useful to stress you
[18:31] <tiox> Some manufacturers mod the shit out of stock Android so mucu... you're not really using Android anymore.
[18:31] <kvarley1> Calinou: Probably a lot to do with legacy support
[18:31] <Calinou> I like not being notified when something happens 8)
[18:31] <FabianS> Calinou: That's your opinion.
[18:31] <tiox> much*
[18:31] <Calinou> if someone wants to say something important then they call me
[18:31] <FabianS> I simply expect that functionality.
[18:31] <RollinV2> tiox, sense is the reason i refuse to buy HTC android devices
[18:31] <FabianS> Without having to fall back to SMS.
[18:31] <IdleOne> tiox: Please keep the language clean
[18:31] <Calinou> kvarley1: more like... monies
[18:31] <tiox> Whoops.
[18:32] <Mercury> Calinou: MMS exists because that's how they like to bill for things.
[18:32] <tiox> Thus, I believe that in the case of HTC, the OS listed should be HTC/Android instead of Android.
[18:32] <FabianS> For some reason the Note II runs for ages on battery though.
[18:32] <sikory> MMS is just a failed thing, but apparently implementing support is easy
[18:32] <TheLordOfTime> oh so HERE'S where you all are.
[18:33] <FabianS> The battery is twice as big as normal but it also has that huge screen and quadcore.
[18:33] <FabianS> Not sure what samsung did there.
[18:33] <doctormon> hello jono
[18:33] <doctormon> thanks for the invite
[18:33] <Calinou> tiox: it's not HTC/Android! it's HTC/Google/HTC/Android.

[18:33] <sikory> there's no gnu in android
[18:33] <Calinou> yeah
[18:33] <FabianS> The Kernel is GNU.
[18:33] <sikory> *almost no
[18:33] <jaduncan> Does this mean that Ubuntu for Android is dead?
[18:33] <Calinou> no
[18:33] <tiox> Calinou: What?
[18:33] <sikory> FabianS: no it isn't
[18:33] <FabianS> Well, it's GPL.
[18:33] <JoseeAntonioR> any questions, guys?
[18:33] <FabianS> Not GNU.
[18:33] <zyga> jono: will there be an emulator for writing apps like there is for android?
[18:34] <FabianS> GNU license.
[18:34] <sikory> GPL is not GNU
[18:34] <sikory> there are so many GPL programs
[18:34] <FabianS> It's the GNU GPL.
[18:34] <sikory> but that doesn't make the program a GNU program
[18:34] <Calinou> android is apache 2, permissive ftw!
[18:34] <iceroot> FabianS: the G in GPL stands for GNU
[18:34] <Calinou> now every single "overlay" is proprietary :(
[18:34] <bashrc`> So, is this free software on a phone, but with the GNU toolchain?
[18:34] <Mercury> FabianS: GNU has multiple licenses, saying the GNU license is ambigious.
[18:34] <Calinou> iceroot: no, general
[18:34] <Calinou> general public license
[18:34] <Calinou> GNU GPL
[18:34] <iceroot> k
[18:35] <Calinou> yey, an op was wrong
[18:35] <jaduncan> bashrc`: yeah, standard toolchain but with QML.
[18:35] <bashrc`> QML?
[18:35] <SeanS> developer.ubuntu.com is 503ing?
[18:35] <tiox> Recursive acronyms and abbreviations with abbreviations in the, that stand for groups of people and stuff. That's Linux.
[18:35] <snwh> will the phone OS 'rooted'
[18:35] <FabianS> I'm still sad that nokia killed Meego.
[18:35] <mhall119> SeanS: the box is getting more traffic than it can handle atm
[18:35] <sikory> linux isn't an abbreviation
[18:35] <FabianS> That was like the perfect phone OS.
[18:35] <jacobw> one would assume so
[18:35] <tiox> My god the "Alphabet soup"-ness of Linux discussion scares noobs away so hard.
[18:35] <sikory> so?
[18:36] <FabianS> Debian based and native Apps using QT.
[18:36] <RollinV2> thats good
[18:36] <Mercury> Will it be Ubuntu with X or Wayland as the core, or will it be something more specialized?
[18:36] <FabianS> And fast as hell.
[18:36] <kvarley1> How hard will it be to port Ubuntu to existing android devices assuming there is access to root and busybox?
[18:36] <iceroot> but if i get it correctly we will have 2 different guis? the real Desktop Gui (Unity which is used at the moment on the desktopsystems) when the phone is connected via dock and a special gui when using the phone directly?
[18:36] <FabianS> But noooo. We need Webapps on the desktop.
[18:36] <sikory> ooh, wayland wayland wayland!
[18:36] <Guest99002> What integration will the phone have with the Ubuntu desktop?
[18:36] <jacobw> FabianS: what's wrong with html5/js? it's just another interpretter
[18:36] <sikory> isn't unity made for phones?
[18:36] <cjwatson> FabianS: fast - uh, they must have seriously sped up the browser from fremantle then
[18:36] <sikory> *touch screens rather
[18:36] <cjwatson> 'cos fast that ain't
[18:36] <tiox> sikory: Mobile devices, yes.
[18:36] <FabianS> jacobw: It's slow as hell and requires tons of RAM?
[18:37] <tiox> Part of Canonical's "Multi-device future" blueprint.
[18:37] <Mercury> sikory: I'll take either over yet another custom layer talking to a framebuffer like they did for both Android and WebOS.
[18:37] <FabianS> AJAX is slow even on laptop CPUs.
[18:37] <jacobw> FabianS: like WebOS did?
[18:37] <sikory> my laptop is a mobile device, but I don't run Unity on that
[18:37] <FabianS> Which are a lot faster than those tiny ARMs.
[18:37] <webdesserts> All I want to know, is can I run Vim on it?
[18:37] <gotwig> hey
[18:37] <RollinV2> for database apps html5/js is ok.. but for games, etc? nope nope nope
[18:37] <FabianS> jacobw: Never tried WebOS. Did they actually release some decent phone with that OS?
[18:37] <magespawn> Evening
[18:37] <seiflotfy> hey guys
[18:37] <gotwig> mhall119, hey there
[18:38] <RollinV2> webOS died at the tablet level
[18:38] <sikory> Mercury: of course
[18:38] <gotwig> mhall119, Can I distribute my scope and lenses that I've develop for Ubuntu, for Ubuntu for phones?
[18:38] <sikory> webdesserts: vim on a touchscreen?
[18:38] <sikory> that can't work
[18:38] <seiflotfy> quick question, is zeitgeist used in ubuntu phone
[18:38] <mhall119> gotwig: yes, the scopes/lenses API will be the same between both
[18:38] <FabianS> Fremantle? Was that on the n800?
[18:38] <mhall119> gotwig: nice huh?
[18:38] <RollinV2> sikory, i use vim during ssh to my server via android connect bot. it works nice!
[18:38] <webdesserts> you can use vim on both the iPhone and android, you just need to attach a keyboard
[18:38] <tiox> Even if it did work, it'd rely on the bvirtual keyboard unless it's a Droid or some other phone with a physical board.
[18:38] <jacobw> FabianS: no, but they showed that using web technologies wasn't a pipe dream
[18:38] <RobinJ> i wonder what bullshit richard stallman's going to say about ubuntu phone :p
[18:38] <tiox> virtual keyboard*
[18:39] <spjt> It would be nice if Bluetooth keyboards actually worked with it, unlike Android
[18:39] <mhall119> All of the Unity APIs should be the same between desktop and phone
[18:39] <tiox> RobinJ: Language. Watch it.
[18:39] <sikory> RobinJ: there's nothing to say about it yet
[18:39] <FabianS> RobinJ: Like condemning sending everything you type to amazon? How could he.
[18:39] <Guest99002> Would the phone interact with an Ubuntu desktop without replacing it by docking?
[18:39] <sikory> RollinV2: of course you can efficienty use your keystrokes
[18:39] <RollinV2> ok real talk, does RollinV2 run out and buy a c7 chromebook since we ain't getting a ubuntu tablet anytime soon
[18:39] <doctormon> mhall119: Wouldn't be much good if it were different.
[18:39] <FabianS> That "shopping lens" was just insanely stupid.
[18:39] <sikory> still, I wouldn't use a touchscreen for editing textfiles at all
[18:39] <mhall119> doctormon: tell that to MS :)
[18:39] <nolan1> I see lots of talk about the phone becoming a desktop when it is docked. Will it be possible to use the desktop on your phone without it being docked, say for those of us who don't need screens?
[18:39] <FabianS> Not sure what those devs at Canonical thought about that.
[18:39] <seiflotfy> is there an image somewhere?
[18:40] <tiox> FabianS: Advertising is what you get when users don't donate.
[18:40] <magespawn> webdesserts you can run vim touch on Android
[18:40] <tiox> ;)
[18:40] <cjwatson> FabianS: fremantle - n900
[18:40] <doctormon> mhall119: No one listens to me in Ubuntu, how far would I get with Microsoft :-P
[18:40] <RollinV2> sikory, i thought the same. but with a good virtual keyboard (hackerskeyboard on android) it works fine for light editing
[18:40] <gotwig> mhall119, :>
[18:40] <gotwig> mhall119, I should relearn some stuff ^^
[18:40]  * nolan1 is blind, thinking it'd be awesome to have a laptop in his pocket and a small BT keyboard on the go, then a full-sized keyboard/speaker system at home. :)
[18:40] <mhall119> doctormon: I listen :P
[18:40] <FabianS> Stallman is a fundamentalist. But usually the stuff he says isn't wrong.
[18:40] <sikory> RollinV2: tablet or pone?
[18:41] <robin-gloster> mhall119: do you have more information on the image for galaxy nexus?
[18:41] <popey> doctormon: we listen
 will the phone OS 'rooted'
[18:41] <RollinV2> sikory, tablet. though i could do the same on my phone
[18:41] <mhall119> robin-gloster: not yet, no
[18:41] <doctormon> popey: lol
[18:41] <Calinou> do that, send it as-is to OEMs
[18:41] <Calinou> they'll be happy :D
[18:41]  * popey puts his headphones back on to blot out doctormon ☺
[18:41] <nolan1> Also, I'm a bit worried about all this OEM talk. What will prevent OEMs from keeping phone users on 13.04 in 2015?
[18:42] <JoseeAntonioR> if you guys have any more questions, feel free to ask
[18:42]  * tiox tests a theory...
[18:42] <sikory> nolan1: why would they care what people use after they bought their stuff?
[18:42] <tiox> Bacon.
[18:42] <sikory> yay, Bacon
[18:42] <sikory> I love bacon
[18:42] <RollinV2> nolan1, nothing. carriers want you to buy a new phone every 2 years
[18:42] <jaduncan> sikory: returns, brand identity.
[18:42] <nolan1> sikory: I wonder that about Samsung, HTC, etc.
[18:42] <tiox> It works! Any mention of the word Bacon will lead into discussion of bacon!
[18:42] <cjwatson> nolan1: best thing we can do I suspect is to make sure as much of the code is in the primary Ubuntu archive as humanly possible
[18:42] <jacobw> nolan1: users
[18:43] <SeanS> long story short, that is a yes :)
[18:43] <Mercury> sikory: Carriers have, 'interesting' rules on updates for phones.
[18:43] <jaduncan> sikory: also planned obselence through lack of upgrades.
[18:43] <sikory> iceroot: there is no bacon discussion, except that I now respond to you
[18:43] <sikory> tiox: there is no bacon discussion, except that I now respond to you
[18:43] <nolan1> Why would HTC care what I run on my phone? Doesn't keep them from making it difficult to switch to CM and upgrade to newer versions of Android.
[18:43] <sikory> oops, not iceroot
[18:43] <apecaesar> the new ubuntu phone will be "dockable" like Ubuntu for android? I mean, could I use my phone as my "notebook"?
[18:43] <Mercury> sikory: Such as requiring that there be a fairly impressive (and expensive / time consuming) testing process done before it can be sent OTA.
[18:43] <Mercury> sikory: And that dance is per carrier, naturally.
[18:43] <iceroot> sikory: np
[18:43] <doctormon> popey: I'm just grinding your diamonds. you know we love you guys really.
[18:43] <sikory> I don't understand those rules at all either
[18:43] <tiox> See, you love bacon so much, the mention of it made you shaky and mess up your typing. :P
[18:44] <sikory> tiox: indeed, bacon is awesome
[18:44] <iceroot> apecaesar: yes
[18:44] <RollinV2> nolan1, HTC cares because they have advertising deals in place with Nascar and other uninstallable bloatware apps
[18:44] <sikory> tiox: did you kow there's even chocolate covered bacon
[18:44] <iceroot> apecaesar: thats what i got as an answer to my similar question
[18:44] <Mercury> sikory: That is quite beneficial for the phone carrier's current business model, but it means that the phone makers are just not going to spend the money to recertify 2 year old devices.
[18:44] <tiox> Yes I did.
[18:44] <kvarley1> apecaesar: On high end models this will be possible in the future apparently. See OMGUbuntu for more
[18:45] <nolan1> RollinV2: Exactly, so I want to hear how Canonical plans to prevent that so that Linux for human beings doesn't become Linux for OEMs.
[18:45] <sikory> nolan1: who says they want those plans
[18:45] <RollinV2> nolan1, im hopeing the phone OS has terminal support for add/remove packages.
[18:45] <popey> doctormon: of course, and honestly we need people on the outside keeping us grounded
[18:46] <nolan1> sikory: "They" being Canonical, and "those plans" being letting users upgrade? If so, then I don't know. I just assume that Linux for human beings would permit that level of customization.
[18:46] <tiox> Now, in my opinion, it should be ILLEGAL to modify an end product for the consumer. Microsoft for instance; I am okay with OEMs including crapware which may in some time compromise system performance -- If they make it installable, and not put it on the system immediately
[18:46] <apecaesar> let`s learn how to code in hml5 and do many apps!!!
[18:47] <Calinou> what firefox OS does basically
[18:47] <jaduncan> tiox: ironically, this would be an infringement of software freedom.
[18:47] <Calinou> now let's all flame apecaesar because html5 is so slow
[18:47] <Calinou> j/k :P
[18:47]  * DavidBradbury already creates HTML5 apps for a living
[18:47] <tiox> How?!
[18:47] <apecaesar> ahuahuhuahau
[18:47] <Calinou> jaduncan: OEMs use that freedom wrongly, very
[18:47] <Calinou> DavidBradbury: now release github and twitter's source code, kthx
[18:47] <webdesserts> Will the terminal for the phone be touch friendly, or will it look similar to your desktop terminal?
[18:47] <Calinou> also the nvidia driver one
[18:47] <tiox> There would still be software freedom -- The freedom fr users to dictate what exactly they want on their machines!
[18:48] <tiox> for*
[18:48] <popey> JoseeAntonioR: question from a friend... "what will be the state of accessibility in this phone?" "Is
[18:48] <popey> there anything I can do to test it out"
[18:48] <sikory> but if the freedom is only for the OEMs that isn't freedom for the end-user
[18:48] <jaduncan> calinou: that's freedom for you. I'm not sure we'd want to prevent System76 from installing a custom webcam driver that isn't in the normal build.
[18:48] <DavidBradbury> Calinou: Totally - If I didn't work for a private company that creates these apps for other companies :)
[18:48] <RobinJ> review board can't keep up? no shit, i've still got two apps in here (https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/) that have been "pending review" for half a year now; that's why i ditched ubuntu as a development platform
[18:48] <mhall119> RobinJ: we're working on fixing that process for you
[18:48] <Calinou> RobinJ: now develop arch for harshlinux
[18:48] <Calinou> upload it to AUR
[18:48] <jaduncan> sikory: I agree that Tivoization shouldn't be OK, but that's the main focus of GPL v3.
[18:48] <DJones> RobinJ: Mind the language
[18:48] <sikory> probably the hardware side will be completely locked down, as with android, because hardware people really don't like to liberate their stuff.
[18:48] <Calinou> "lol omg this doesnt work" :D
[18:49]  * nolan1 hopes it will be accessible. For all Canonical's talk about accessibility, its access team is so small it can only guarantee LTS release accessibility.
[18:49] <sikory> jaduncan: no, it's what OEMs do with all the junk (adware) they insert in windows
[18:49] <sikory> I was referring to that
[18:49] <HumanBeing> What's about Ubuntu for Android? Will it still be developed?
[18:49] <nolan1> Which is sad for a company that charges ahead in so many other areas, I'd hope Canonical could grow its access team in proportion to Unity/server/other areas.
[18:49] <sikory> also Linus doesn't like gpl v3
[18:49] <jaduncan> sikory: it's very hard to define in the licence what is and isn't junkware.
[18:49] <sikory> jaduncan: I don't say you should
[18:49] <david23400> We need a new phone ubuntu based or we can install it on an android device?
[18:50] <sikory> jaduncan: but windows isn't free for the end-user at all
[18:50] <tiox> jaduncan: Here's the line for me: What I bought | What I didn't ask for
[18:50] <jaduncan> no, but Android is. It also has crapware on an open source OS.
[18:50] <FabianS> Android is hardly Open Source.
[18:50] <FabianS> Even Nexus aren't.
[18:51] <tiox> Now, there is some software that is necessary for the machine to work, absolutely. That isn't junkware.
[18:51] <sikory> tiox: you pay less because of those "ads"
[18:51] <FabianS> Your "normal" android phone has all closed drivers and UI.
[18:51] <tiox> How much less?
[18:51] <RollinV2> subsidized by ads
[18:51] <RobinJ> jono, can we also develop for it, and thus participate in the showdown, without buying a €600 phone?
[18:51] <sikory> tiox: a fair amount, I don't know the figures
[18:51] <FabianS> Nexus have an OS UI but that's about it
[18:51] <unr34l> If I install ubuntu on my phone, will support all the sensors and cameras ?
[18:51] <tiox> I could buy a Windows machine from Microsoft for cheaper than I can buy OEM machines in some stores!
[18:51] <sikory> but if it would be like €5, I don't think OEMs would insert it
[18:51] <highvoltage> engadged claims to have gone hands-on with an ubuntu phone already: http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/02/ubuntu-for-smartphones/
[18:51] <jaduncan> tiox: generally more than the Windows licence fee, put it that way.
[18:51] <DavidBradbury> I'd swear that some of the people here have never used a phone and never worked for a company before. Ugg.
[18:51] <tiox> And they don't have bloatware!
[18:52] <RobinJ> ok
[18:52] <david23400> the phone which is showed is a Galaxy Nexus , isnt it?
[18:52] <sikory> tiox: microsoft sells machines?
[18:52] <RollinV2> demo hardware
[18:52] <sikory> except for those tablets
[18:52] <jaduncan> so, again, does this mean that Ubuntu on Android is dead?
[18:52] <FabianS> david23400: yep.
[18:52] <sikory> I know about them
[18:52] <CommieDore> What will be the widget toolkit? GTK? QT? e17?
[18:52] <FabianS> Qt.
[18:53] <david23400> FabianS: so it can be run on some android devices? cool :D
[18:53] <tiox> Then again, the Microsoft store is all about Suface now, so that might had been true a couple years ago.
[18:53] <FabianS> It might run on the Galaxy Nexus.
[18:53] <david23400> NExus 4
[18:53] <Cantide> jaduncan, it seems to me like Ubuntu for Android is actually one of the pieces of this Ubuntu phone
[18:53] <FabianS> No. The pictures show a Gnexus.
[18:53] <FabianS> No Nexus4.
[18:53] <user82> did they mention android apps on ubuntu anywhere?
[18:54] <doctormon> No python? Just C and C++?
[18:54] <spjt> Ubuntu is going to be closed in that sense since it's designed to use Android drivers.
[18:54] <FabianS> I wouldn't miss android apps really.
[18:54] <IdleOne> jono, popey, bkerensa: right now All I keep hearing as an answer to any question being asked is: We don't have this ready. I am not sure how we are going to do this. We need to get organised... Why did Canonical make such a big to do about something that doesn't exist yet?
[18:54] <FabianS> There isn't a lot of good android apps.
[18:54] <sikory> doctormon: there will surely be python, just as it is on your pc
[18:54] <DarkArgon> c, c++ and js
[18:54] <snwh> QUESTION: would users be able to switch to the phone UI on the desktop, if they are one and the same?
[18:54] <david23400> i personnaly dont care of games or such apps.. i think there are the apps that i need.. evernote , facebook twitter
[18:54] <sikory> maybe not is a "native" setting
[18:54] <RollinV2> FabianS, there are plenty. iOS store just filled with more trash apps
[18:54] <popey> IdleOne: it does exist, I've held it
[18:55] <FabianS> RollinV2: Both stores are filled with horrible apps.
[18:55] <sikory> farcebook is a terrible company
[18:55] <FabianS> But there are hardly any good ones.
[18:55] <popey> IdleOne: so we release late, we get panned, we release early, we get panned,
[18:55] <popey> what exactly should we do?
[18:55] <Cantide> jaduncan, read this page -> http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/01/02/announcing-ubuntu-for-phones/
[18:55] <IdleOne> popey: So there is a half dozen units in an office somewhere that aren't ready for sale.
[18:55] <jaduncan> Cantide: Ubuntu for Android ties into a lot of the google apps databases. Those can't be copied across, and Ubuntu for Android now runs on a competitor platform. Which kind of sucks, becuase if Ubuntu for Android dies I won't get to run it on my phone. :)
[18:55] <tiox> Do remember, Canonical is breaking even because of users choosing to use Ubuntu, and purchase related software, hardware and services.
[18:55] <Neshemah> back
[18:56] <jaduncan> Cantide: Read it, no answer on that there.
[18:56] <tiox> I believe before it even touches OEMs, Ubuntu Phone should be an OS installable on rooted phones.
[18:56] <FabianS> I think I wouldn't really miss apps even on Meego.
[18:56] <FabianS> Maybe Whatsapp.
[18:56] <FabianS> But everything else I need is there.
[18:56] <spjt> Is there an image that I could load on an android emulator?
[18:56] <popey> IdleOne: I think it's great we're showing this as soon as we can :D
[18:57] <tiox> Which wouldmean all the epople on CyanogenMod, MIUI, Apex etc. would be on it, see it, and make a reasonable conclusion whether it's something to get behind, or if Canoncal wasted their time and resources.
[18:57] <tiox> Canonical*
[18:57] <IdleOne> jono, popey: Thank you for the answers
[18:57] <tiox> OMG typing! Grr.
[18:57] <CommieDore> Will there be a lot of "glorified bookmark" apps on Ubuntu Mobile too? I get a lot of them in the Chrome Webstore...
[18:58] <sikory> we have to see what this will become in a year, I'm still not convinced that this will really go through
[18:58] <HumanBeing> it would be a cool thing for the NexPhone
[18:58] <doctormon> jono: I'm surprised Canonical went down the route of automisation over pushing the review process to third party commercial vendors. Making the 'Ubuntu Developer' position more valuable than just people getting their own packages in.
[18:59] <spjt> developer.ubuntu.com is down
[18:59] <mhall119> doctormon: review has always been a bottleneck, both for distro packages and independent apps
[18:59] <mhall119> automation is the only real long-term solution
[18:59] <Garbee> popey, In response to release late vs early. I'd tend to go for a little late since that tends to mean a better product.
[18:59] <CommieDore> Now, is the QML Core very flexible as far as customization?
[18:59] <spjt> I think it's a good sign compared to Windows Phone that the developer site is down :)
[19:00] <doctormon> I've spent about 500 hours last year writing xbmc plugins and patches. Why haven't I been writing Ubuntu TV code?
[19:00] <sikory> it's never good when a site goes down, they did something wrong
[19:00] <tiox> Because it sucks?
[19:00] <RollinV2> doctormon, thank you for your hard work.
[19:00]  * tiox trolls
[19:01] <tiox> Actually, I never saw Ubuntu TV in action anywhere. Don't have the HTPC to commit.
[19:01] <doctormon> There's a lot of Ubuntu projects which are seemingly impossible to participate in because they don't seem to deliver anything.
[19:02] <tiox> doctormon: Remember, if you told people that Vs were going to have and drives and internet ten years ago, you would have been laughed at and shamed.
[19:02] <sikory> why would people want a full operating system on their tv?
[19:02] <tiox> TVs*
[19:02] <mhall119> doctormon: such as?
[19:02] <sikory> TVs have internet?
[19:02] <doctormon> tiox: No, ten years ago it was predictible and inevitable.
[19:02] <tiox> Woaht what? Typing, woah woah...
[19:02] <sikory> even more surprised that they have drives
[19:03] <doctormon> mhall119: Ubuntu TV, ubuntu for android, ubuntu for cloud, stuff that has just bounced off my ability to partcipate.
[19:03] <tiox> The keyboard, tiox, use it... Spellcheck, use it...
[19:03] <mhall119> doctormon: Ubuntu TV has been open to participation for almost a year now
[19:03] <CommieDore> Will I be able to install Arch on the Ubuntu Phone? (Wait, they removed the installer... Nevermind :) )
[19:03] <cielak> not sure if anyone asked it yet, but I'm just wondering if Quickly will provide features for apps on the phone
[19:04] <mhall119> UfA wasn't really a modified Ubuntu
[19:04] <mhall119> Ubuntu server and juju are both open to participation
[19:04] <FabianS> CommieDore: Arch didn't remove the installer.
[19:04] <hrnz> Hi
[19:04] <FabianS> They replaced it with a better one.
[19:04] <CommieDore> FabianS: I thought it removed the install scripts
[19:04] <FabianS> No.
[19:04] <mhall119> cielak: I plan on working with people to get a Quickly template for phone apps, yes
[19:04] <cielak> mhall119: cool! thanks
[19:04] <tiox> What boggles me is why everyone wants all the hardware in the TV.
[19:04] <hrnz> Cantide: the arch install scripts replace the arch installation framework
[19:04] <FabianS> They replaced the Arch Install Framework with the Arch Install Scripts.
[19:04] <FabianS> hrnz: fuck you :p
[19:04] <hrnz> FabianS: <3
[19:05] <IdleOne> !language | FabianS
[19:05] <CommieDore> FabianS: So, I don't have to chroot and use mk2fs.ext4 and stuff like that?
[19:05] <hrnz> CommieDore: yes.
[19:05] <tiox> You don't see any internet-enabled monitors in market, so why internet-enabled televisions all a sudden?
[19:05] <FabianS> Yep.
[19:05] <hrnz> eh wait
[19:05] <hrnz> you have to create your filesystems and chroot
[19:05] <SeanS> tiox: isn't a tablet, a internet enabled monitor?
[19:06] <spjt> whatever, i'm going to go shopping and hope that developer.ubuntu.com is back up when I return :)
[19:06] <tiox> :/
[19:06] <tiox> True... right.
[19:06] <irv> tiox: trends towards all-in-one style devices
[19:06] <tiox> Guess what I am saying is that I am tired of integrated electronics where if one thing breaks, you have to take apart the sodding rig to fix it, or submit to reseling the phone.
[19:06] <irv> why have a TV and a set-top box when you can have a TV with one built in
[19:07] <irv> (sucks, but that's the way it is)
[19:07] <snwh> The Verge has a hands-on video: http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/2/3828266/ubuntu-phone-os-hands-on
[19:07] <SeanS> same reason that Apple is looking at the TV again.
[19:07] <irv> yep
[19:07] <tiox> reselling the device rather.
[19:07] <cielak> snwh: thanks!
[19:07] <irv> it's stupid for consumers, but great for device makers
[19:07] <SeanS> agreed, tiox
[19:08] <tiox> If it were entirely up to me, then everything would be modular and easy to replace. I believe that's pitchable to consumers, if you make replacement of components easy -- Or are the sheeple truly that incapable of understanding how their "Magic boxes" work?
[19:09] <SeanS> I imagine there are a few people out there with TVs with DVD players built in that hardly get any use
[19:09] <SeanS> too many remotes :P
[19:09] <irv> it's also about selling people a new TV
[19:09] <FabianS> You can't build a modular phone.
[19:09] <irv> why sell them a $100 box that goes on top of the tv when you can sell them a whole tv
[19:09] <irv> with the $100 box built in
[19:09] <sikory> there are also those TVs with built in VHS players
[19:09] <FabianS> The hardware is much too small.
[19:09] <tiox> Yep, seen them.
[19:09] <sikory> irv: you really want to do computing on your tv?
[19:10] <sikory> with a remote
[19:10] <irv> computing?
[19:10] <tiox> I have a TV with a built-in DVD player. Hardly got used, then when my uncle came over to use it, somehow he broke that.
[19:10] <irv> what
[19:10] <irv> i said a set-top box
[19:10] <irv> :P
[19:10] <irv> that's generally designed for consuming media
[19:10] <tiox> I mean, no physical components were broken, it's just it refuses to play disks now.
[19:10] <irv> which is waht most people use their tvs for
[19:10] <tiox> discs*
[19:10] <sikory> ah ok
[19:10] <irv> but, i agree it's useful to be able to launch youtube on the tv
[19:10] <irv> etc
[19:10] <irv> browse a website
[19:10] <SeanS> IPTV!
[19:10] <sikory> irv: I agree that
[19:11] <sikory> but do TVs really have drives in them?
[19:11] <irv> writing code on the tv, not so much.. especially not with a remote control
[19:11] <irv> maybe with a keyboard
[19:11] <sikory> irv: coding with a remote control, in vim
[19:11] <irv> yeah, that's the plan
[19:11] <hrnz> FabianS: you know that non ubuntu users aren't allowed here? :)
[19:11] <TheLordOfTime> lol
[19:11] <irv> 'smart tv'
[19:11] <sikory> I would try that if I could
[19:11] <TheLordOfTime> windows phones are evil.
[19:11] <irv> has storage in it
[19:11] <FabianS> hrnz: I use ubuntu on my university workstations!.
[19:11] <sikory> hrnz: they aren't?
[19:11] <FabianS> Well, I have to :p
[19:12] <hrnz> FabianS: ;)
[19:12] <hrnz> sikory: i have absolutely no idea
[19:12] <sikory> TheLordOfTime: preaching to the choir
[19:12] <hrnz> sikory: never been here before
[19:12] <sikory> hrnz: I guess not
[19:12] <sikory> me neither
[19:12] <TheLordOfTime> :P
[19:12] <CommieDore> It's never the year for linux, that's said every year!
[19:12] <sikory> and I don't use plain ubuntu
[19:12] <CommieDore> lol
[19:12] <TheLordOfTime> CommieDore, stop being negative.
[19:12] <SeanS> lol
[19:12] <CommieDore> I thought 2007 was the year for linux?
[19:12] <hrnz> CommieDore: yes it was
[19:13] <sikory> it's going to be the year of the gnu/linux desktop
[19:13] <hrnz> CommieDore: and every year since
[19:13] <CommieDore> lol
[19:13] <sikory> so this year as well
[19:13] <TheLordOfTime> its the perpetual "Year of Linux" every year.
[19:13] <RollinV2> whats best place to talk about ubuntu on c7 chromebook?
[19:13] <CommieDore> Well, It's not "year of the dragon" every Chinese New Year
[19:13] <sikory> RollinV2: #ubuntu-discuss
[19:13] <sikory> maybe not
[19:14] <sikory> I've never been here
[19:14] <IdleOne> sikory: perfect answer
[19:14] <RollinV2> sikory, lol.
[19:14] <IdleOne> -discuss is the channel to "talk" about ubuntu.
[19:14]  * RollinV2 just wants to know if $200 is worth it for a ubuntu powered chromebook
[19:15] <IdleOne> sounds like a reasonable price to me
[19:15] <RollinV2> i think so too, but i see people having hardware issues after ubuntu updates with chrubuntu
[19:16] <RollinV2> plus, im unsure of 720p playback smoothness
[19:19] <Nexuus> Is the intention for the new phone to be dockable and become a full desktop?  That would be a killer feature.
[19:19] <CommieDore> I think before they move to wayland, it will be a *.10 release. Mark's smart enough to know not to ship a 1.0 product on a LTS
[19:20] <HumanBeing> Does anybody know what's going on with the NexPhone?
[19:20]  * tiox is presently using Mint, and is an ex-Ubuntu user
[19:20] <doctormon> The multiple platforms might prove to be a distraction from the desktop. But maybe it'll be a multiplier, would be unique though. For instance we have pretty poor contacts/email/messaging on the desktop, that might be improved greatly by a phone platform.
[19:20] <sikory> wayland will take a while
[19:20] <CommieDore> I would guess 14.10 would have wayland
[19:20] <sikory> poor email? Thunderbird is awesome
[19:20] <CommieDore> but not 14.04
[19:21] <Thundarr> its a group of people with limited resources expanding out away from the core product they should be caring for.
[19:21] <tiox> What is Wayland exactly?
[19:21] <sikory> CommieDore: already?
[19:21] <Thundarr> bad idea
[19:21] <CommieDore> sikory: I'm just guessing
[19:21] <user82> CommieDore: +1
[19:21] <user82> on 14.10
[19:21] <sikory> Thundarr: most Free software project are
[19:21]  * RollinV2 is using Luna. ubuntu is ok as long as you avoid unity
[19:21] <FabianS> The problem with wayland is the lack of drivers.
[19:21] <FabianS> A display server that only runs on Intel GPUs would be kinda bad.
[19:21] <sikory> and that it's not finished yet
[19:22] <FabianS> Well, it works.
[19:22] <doctormon> sikory: yeah, thunderbird, evolution etc, they all follow the same weird 1995 design which is just damn poor for 2013.
[19:22] <tiox> Ah, I see now. So Wayland is to be the successor to X?
[19:22] <FabianS> Yep.
[19:22] <sikory> doctormon: why would that be bad
[19:22] <FabianS> Wayland looks really promising.
[19:22] <sikory> doctormon: the desine of bash is even older
[19:22] <sikory> *design
[19:22] <FabianS> Much better than X11.
[19:22] <doctormon> sikory: Bash has it's issues, but it's much more internally consistant than email.
[19:23] <FabianS> X is really really really old.
[19:23] <tiox> Using Skype for Linux puts me back in 1995; In a really bad way.
[19:23] <FabianS> Twice as old as linux in fact.
[19:23] <FabianS> And that shows.
[19:23] <sikory> the things they chose then were reasonable
[19:23] <snwh> QUESTION: how is advertising going to work in the phone app ecosystem? or will there be advertising?
[19:23] <FabianS> They were reasonable in 1985, yes.
[19:23] <FabianS> But they are extremely stupid today.
[19:24] <sikory> that's what I meant
[19:24] <cjwatson> It's kind of a successor to the back half of X
[19:24] <CommieDore> I hope we can install Ubuntu Phone OS on the old Sony VAIO-UX (The full desktop x86 smartphone)
[19:24] <FabianS> In X WM, display Server and Compositor are three different programs. That's insane.
[19:24] <sikory> doctormon: a mail client doesn't need many bells and whistles aka "design"
[19:24] <doctormon> sikory: no... bells and whistles are the very opposite of design.
[19:24] <joelinux> I wish they would at least show a short phone demo.
[19:24] <sikory> like those screens that explode and make a triple roll before minimising
[19:25] <sikory> doctormon: a good design is timeless :p
[19:25] <joelinux> They've spent so much time talking about Ubuntu on Nexus 7 on the blogs.
[19:25] <mhall119> joelinux: there are videos online
[19:25] <FabianS> joelinux: The Verge has a handson video.
[19:25] <doctormon> sikory: be careful with your infinities. But email has not remained static for 20 years.
[19:25] <sikory> the protocol is pretty much the same
[19:25] <joelinux> mhall119: Yea but there are a lot of people watching right now that don't know about those.
[19:25] <SeanS> joelinux: did you see the trailer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoXpLUr5WB4
[19:26] <mhall119> joelinux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXWnMTm7We8&feature=player_embedded
[19:26] <doctormon> sikory: So is the http protocol, I'm sure the web is _exactly_ the same as it was in 1995.
[19:26] <tiox> I do hope that Wayland is only a codename, and that it'll take on a more universal name on release.
[19:26] <FabianS> What's wrong with "wayland"?
[19:26] <sikory> doctormon: but mail is messages + attachments, only more
[19:26] <SeanS> or that, thanks mhall119  :)
[19:26] <sikory> FabianS: it's not done yet
[19:26] <FabianS> sikory: I mean with the name.
[19:26] <doctormon> sikory: that's not how people use email.
[19:26] <sikory> I do
[19:27] <sikory> how else would you use mail?
[19:27] <sikory> ok, some sort of filing system is nice
[19:27] <doctormon> sikory: you're unique to never get a notifier, never use mailing lists or linked resources.
[19:27] <sikory> notifiers are evil
[19:27] <doctormon> sikory: I agree, but there they are.
[19:27] <sikory> I check my mail when I want, not when someone else wants
[19:28] <CommieDore> No, a democratic solution. I thought this was a meritocracy? ;)
[19:28] <cheese1756> Wow, Ubuntu for mobile looks far better than Android
[19:28] <cheese1756> Pretty nice looking
[19:28] <sikory> doctormon: so I disable them
[19:28] <FabianS> cheese1756: Too slow.
[19:28] <tola> Does anyone know what the browser app will be in Ubuntu for Phones?
[19:28] <FabianS> The Galaxy Nexus is still a really fast device.
[19:28] <FabianS> It shouldn't lag.
[19:28] <WanderingEnder> I'm wondering how this will work, this Ubuntu for Phones.
[19:28] <FabianS> Even Android 4.0 ran more smooth on it.
[19:28] <doctormon> sikory: _not_ those notifiers. The email ones. Like from facebook, twitter, ebay and what ever the hell sends you an email.
[19:28] <cheese1756> FabianS, I have a Galaxy Nexus, and I'll try it out once the builds are available
[19:28] <WanderingEnder> Its not that crazy insanity that Motorola was suggesting, was it
[19:28] <cielak> #ubuntu is trending now on g+ :)
[19:28] <cheese1756> I wouldn't be surprised if they're still tightening things up
[19:28] <sikory> facebook is actually evil
[19:29] <Muphrid> will it be possible to install ubuntu derivatives on the phone instead?
[19:29] <doctormon> sikory: Agreed, and yet there it is.
[19:29] <FabianS> UI looks really good though.
[19:29] <sikory> doctormon: are those mail based?
[19:29] <doctormon> sikory: They send lots of emails.
[19:29] <WanderingEnder> Muphrid, woudln't they need to have been ported to ARM?
[19:29] <Muphrid> WanderingEnder: yes,but  I'm more concerned about the bootloader
[19:29] <CommieDore> sikory: How do you suggest to fund a social network without datamining? People don't like paying for things
[19:30] <doctormon> sikory: My point is that email has been defined along the lines of it's technology. not along the lines of it's real use cases. It's poor design because it's targeting a myth.
[19:30] <sikory> I suggest no social network via the internet
[19:30] <sikory> doctormon: but the things you describe can be solved via a filing system in a mail client
[19:30] <CommieDore> Bye everybody and I love jono's shirt
[19:30] <sikory> that's only one thing
[19:31] <Aiki> Me and friends are wondering if with Qt being central on the phone, Canonical will switch Unity & co. to qt, and abandon Gnome.
[19:32] <RzR> hi
[19:32] <sikory> hi
[19:33] <RzR> any ubuntu phone developers ?
[19:33]  * RzR ran regular ubuntu on his n950 :)
[19:34] <mhall119> Aiki: Qt is just a toolkit, Gnome is so much more than just Gtk
[19:34] <WanderingEnder> I'm still trying to figure out what "Ubuntu for Phones" is. A version for ARM architecture phones?
[19:35] <mhall119> everybody is welcome to join #ubuntu-phone for further discussions of this new project
[19:35] <mhall119> WanderingEnder: It's a full mobile UI based on Unity
[19:35] <sikory> so people are sent from one place to the next
[19:35] <mhall119> sikory: #ubuntu-discuss is a pretty generic channel
[19:35] <sikory> but this is -discuss, so people can discuss here
[19:35] <mhall119> sikory: you can yes
[19:36] <mhall119> but the long term channel will be #ubuntu-phone
[19:36] <WanderingEnder> Are there people with informati in #ubuntu-phone?
[19:36] <sikory> you need to have something to talk about
[19:36] <WanderingEnder> -on
[19:36] <mhall119> WanderingEnder: I'm there, so there's that ;)
[19:36] <RzR> #ubuntu-mobile was open too
[19:48] <mhall119> #ubuntu-mobile was for working on the core of Ubuntu, optimizing it for mobile hardware
[19:49] <gotwig> mhall119, where is the developer chat for the hangout :-) ?
[19:49] <gotwig> mhall119, why are there no points about scopes and lenses? http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/
[19:50] <mhall119> gotwig: #ubuntu-phone
[19:50] <gotwig> mhall119, :X alright
[20:31] <Walther> So, nice work on the Ubuntu phone, when will it be available for download?
[20:42] <DJones> Walther: Looks like discussion & support has been moved to #ubuntu-phone now
[21:04] <Walther> Also, any news on Ubuntu Nexus 7 project?
[21:04] <Walther> Possible to dualboot yet without causing anything permanent / voiding warranty etc?
[21:38] <reindeernix> Does anybody know if they will use Compiz for the Ubuntu phone? o:
[21:39] <popey> reindeernix: see /topic ;)
[21:41] <reindeernix> popey, oh hehe oversaw that >.<
[23:14] <UnderControl> Morning everyone.
[23:18] <Thundarr> is there a down side to using lubuntu other than it being supposedly a bit bland looking? I know its the 'light weight' distro, but functionality wise, it works the same as any other buntu in practice, right?
[23:18] <FabianS> Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu and Ubuntu are exactly the same.
[23:18] <FabianS> Only with different default packages.
[23:19] <Thundarr> ok, ty.
[23:19] <Thundarr> I kind of like that clean minimal look anyway.
[23:29] <jrtappers> Should we change the update center and software sources icons?


[10:46] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: RaphaÃ«l Hertzog: Freexianâs report about Debian Long Term Support, December 2018 @ https://raphaelhertzog.com/2019/01/15/freexians-report-about-debian-long-term-support-december-2018/
[14:26] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: GNOME 3.32 Desktop to Feature a Revamped Theme, Beta Coming Early February @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/gnome-3-32-desktop-to-feature-a-revamped-theme-beta-coming-early-february-524560.shtml (by Marius Nestor)
[14:47] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Fridge:: Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter Issue 561 @ http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2019/01/14/ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-561/ (by guiverc)
[15:31] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: GNOME’s New GTK Theme is Ready for Testing @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/?p=137715 (by Joey Sneddon)
[16:24] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: Entroware Unleash Hades, A Powerful Linux Workstation @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/?p=137720 (by Joey Sneddon)
[17:53] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: VirtualBox 6.0.2 Released with Support for SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 12.4 @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/virtualbox-6-0-2-released-with-support-for-suse-linux-enterprise-server-12-4-524561.shtml (by Marius Nestor)


[00:58] <Scary_Guy> Madison does the same thing sometimes, I can see it from my house.  Less annoying now that I don't have to actaully go
[00:59] <Scary_Guy> still within earshot, but I'm happy to turn up the music and drown it out


[04:31] <az7> woo chat night!
[04:38] <zillah-home> :)
[04:46] <az7> what is up?
[04:47] <zillah-home> not too much here, just wishing centurylink could get it together lol
[04:48] <az7> that bad?
[04:49] <zillah|> oops
[04:50] <zillah-home> looks like suddenlink isnt doing well tonight either
[04:51] <zillah-home> i have some stuff i
[04:51] <zillah-home> would like to work on but my upload speed at the store is like 0.01k right now
[04:52] <zillah-home> i'm having problems even typing on ssh
[04:54] <zillah-home> so where is everybody at these days?
[04:58] <az7> northwest arkansas
[05:00] <zillah-home> no i mean, what happened to all the people that were coming in here
[05:06] <az7> dunno?
[05:09] <snide_> they were all turned to bots
[05:09] <snide_> in an attempt to reduce carbon emissions
[05:10] <az7> possibly
[05:12] <zillah-home> lol
[05:15] <snide_> there is growing evidence that kwadroke has recruited every available geek in the state for artemis crew, so that is one possible cause
[05:16] <az7> artemis crew?
[05:17] <snide_> http://artemis.eochu.com/
[05:18] <az7> ah, that thing
[05:21] <snide_> its very cool; i so wish i had time to play


[18:22] <corshmock> Hello Everybody.
[18:23] <corshmock> Ubuntu Studio 19.10 or Ubuntu Studio 18.04?
[18:26] <Eickmeyer> corshmock: That's completely subjective. You need to decide for yourself, but look at it this way: going from 18.04 to the next LTS (20.04) will be a major jump as opposed to going from 19.10 to 20.04 and remaining on that for LTS.
[18:28] <corshmock> Thank you very much Eickmeyer.  I'm a total newbie on 19.10.  I normally support Windows, but I really have my work cut out for me with Linux.  Beautiful system though.
[18:28] <Eickmeyer> corshmock: Thanks.
[18:29] <corshmock> What version do you use Eickmeyer ?
[18:30] <Eickmeyer> corshmock: I'm the project leader, so I typically use the pre-release, which I do not recommend for production. I'm the worst person to ask.
[18:38] <corshmock> Is it okay to ask a support question in here Eickmeyer ?
[18:39] <corshmock> Hexter wouldn't run for me in 19.10, I tried to install it from the command line but got an error.  I tried to killall but there was no process.  I tried to reinstall it from Synaptic, but none of those things worked.  So I installed 18.04 in a VM and Hexter isn't even there.
[18:41] <OvenWerks> hexter is a plugin.
[18:42] <OvenWerks> command line would be jack-dssi-host hexter.so
[18:43] <OvenWerks> you would of course need jack-dssi-host installed as well (not sure of the package name)
[18:44] <corshmock> Which is probably why I got this?  jack-dssi-host hexter.so
[18:44] <corshmock> jack-dssi-host: Warning: DSSI path not set
[18:44] <corshmock> jack-dssi-host: Defaulting to "/usr/local/lib/dssi:/usr/lib/dssi:/home/corshmock/.dssi"
[18:44] <corshmock> jack-dssi-host: Error: Failed to load plugin library "hexter.so"
[18:45] <OvenWerks> because hexter is a dssi plugin there are some applications like Ardour that do not support it. Un fortunately hexter's author has lost interest in it and so it has not been converted to lv2
[18:46] <corshmock> Does that mean we can forget hexter?
[18:46] <OvenWerks>  here it says /usr/lib/dssi
[18:46] <OvenWerks> I am on 18.04 BTW
[18:47] <OvenWerks> it could be we are going to loose hexter to bit rot
[18:47] <corshmock> I've just installed 18.04 in a VM, but I can't find hexter, even though synaptic says it's installed.  Maybe there's a way to run hexter from the command line?
[18:47] <OvenWerks>  It was likely writen with gtk 2.*
[18:48] <OvenWerks> yes in 18.04 the menu file(s) were wrong so it did not show.
[18:50] <OvenWerks> jack-dssi-host hexter.so works here.
[18:51] <OvenWerks> you could also try loading dexed in carla.
[18:52] <OvenWerks> dexed is another dx7 emulator
[18:54] <corshmock> I've just loaded carla.  No idea how to load dexed though.  Apologies for my Newbieness.
[18:55] <corshmock> Maybe I should just follow another tutorial either in 19.10 or 18.04 that will work for me?
[18:55] <OvenWerks> at the top there is an "Add Plugin
[18:55] <corshmock> I've looked in that but don't see dexed
[18:56] <OvenWerks> it gives a window you should check both Instruments and LV2 at the top
[18:56] <OvenWerks>  then click on Name so the names are in alphabetical order
[18:57] <OvenWerks>  put you mouse ponter over the list of names and scroll down till you see dexed. For me it is just above the first DIN meter
[18:58] <OvenWerks>  (to be honest I do not know if dexed is something Studio came with or something I added later
[19:01] <corshmock> yeah I've done all that but no sign of it.  I've just done a sudo apt-get update (not sure if that's the right command) but it's doing something :)  18.04 doesn't even have carla
[19:01] <OvenWerks> That is true
[19:02] <OvenWerks> but carla is available for 18.04 from the ubuntustudio backports ppa
[19:02] <OvenWerks> !ubuntustudio-bacports
[19:03] <OvenWerks> !ubuntustudio-backports
[19:05] <OvenWerks> BTW, the first time you show the dexed GUI, it takes a long time to show. The window comes up right away but is empty then after a while the contents show up.
[19:06] <OvenWerks> It is interesting that it seems to indicate it can save patches directly to a DX7 memory cart there is no MIDI out.
[19:07] <corshmock> I think I've installed backports (I did read something about this).  So I'll try Carla again now?
[19:08] <OvenWerks> sure
[19:09] <corshmock> It's actually installing carla!!!
[19:09] <OvenWerks> wow did we do that? cool.
[19:09]  * OvenWerks wrote the code but doesn't remember that part now.
[19:11] <corshmock> You wrote the code?
[19:11] <OvenWerks> for controls
[19:12] <OvenWerks> not carla.
[19:14] <corshmock> You very clever person!!!
[19:14] <corshmock> Carla and Carla controls is there now but it's still doing a LOT of installing.
[19:15] <OvenWerks> probably just stuborn
[19:16] <corshmock> I wonder will hexter be available after that's all finished
[19:17] <corshmock> It was a fresh install of 18.04 as of this evening
[19:19] <OvenWerks> hexter should be a part of both 18.04 and 19.10 but to be honest, I don't know if hexter was tested in 19.10
[19:21] <corshmock> It's still pumping away with installs so I'm hopeful I can continue that tutorial.  I have enough trouble with my audio interface as it is :)
[19:22] <OvenWerks> I don't know which tutorial that is. I hope it is relatively up to date
[19:22] <corshmock> It's Peter Reppert.  I just downloaded it as a PDF.  Have you come across it?
[19:23] <OvenWerks> no, but I have not looked for tutorials for a long time.
[19:26] <OvenWerks> the main thing is getting an up to date tutorial, things do change...
[19:26] <corshmock> Maybe if I search for an 18.04 tutorial?
[19:27] <OvenWerks> I am not aware of any tutoral being written for Studio in the last few years... but possible.
[19:27] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^^?
[19:30] <corshmock> mmmmm  I think I get what you mean about up to date.  Maybe I will need to look really hard for something that works.
[19:40] <OvenWerks> Jack used to be a requirement for any reasonable audio use, but with the proliferation of plugins, Ardour recommends using alsa instead. (as an example)
[19:41] <OvenWerks> (Jack was written by the author of Ardour and Ardour uses the same jack code inside for a lot of things)
[19:42] <OvenWerks> However, there are a lot of cheap USB mics around and in order to use them with built in sound jack is still needed.
[19:42] <OvenWerks> I don't really need jack, but I run it all the time as it allows desktop sound to pass through.
[19:46] <corshmock> What about Pathage?  Does that do a similar thing or not?
[19:47] <OvenWerks> patchage uses jack
[19:47] <OvenWerks>  is shows what jack clients are available and allows connecting them together
[19:48] <OvenWerks> once jack is started in controls, it stays running and will restart at session start after a reboot
[19:49] <OvenWerks> so patchage will just work (Carla has a patch bay as well so patchage is not needed)
[19:51] <OvenWerks> I find patchage starts a bit quicker than Carla so I use it for quick checks and connects. It is a little less stable.
[19:55] <corshmock> Thank you so much for this information.  In windows I used to have a patch bay for my Edirol UA-101.  Would such a thing exist in Ubuntu?
[19:55] <corshmock> Or can you do it with the patch bays in Studio?
[19:56] <OvenWerks> It depends on what information the device gives via USB 2.0
[19:57] <corshmock> Would (excuse my ignorance) lsusb tell me anything?
[19:57] <OvenWerks> if it does not need an extra application on Mac os to control these things then alsamixer (command line) or qasmixer (GUI) should show what controls are available.
[19:57] <OvenWerks> lsusb just list what devices are there
[19:57] <OvenWerks> alsamixer is quickest
[19:59] <OvenWerks> (though maybe not the easiest to understand)
[19:59] <corshmock> I must remember that.  If I can get my headphones working through the ua-101, import tracks and practice finger drumming on my Akai LPD8, it would be a start, before I unleash my compositions on the world :)
[19:59] <corshmock> I like the way, you can draw lines between devices (am I correct) in jack.
[20:00] <OvenWerks> if the headphones are not outputs 1+2 that will mean fidning out whch outputs they are and connecting things there instead
[20:01] <OvenWerks>  controls lets you set the default outputs for desktop audio coming from pulse
[20:01] <corshmock> I think this is an issue I will have difficulty with but I hope I can get my head around it.
[20:01] <OvenWerks>  The drawing lines part is not jack itself but rather the gui (Carla, patchage or qjackctl)
[20:02] <OvenWerks> sometimes the easiest thing to start is just to plug left into all the odd outputs and right into all the even outputs
[20:03] <corshmock> I'm slightly confused already
[20:03] <corshmock> Left and right?
[20:03] <OvenWerks> Most people only use two of however many outputs there are.
[20:03] <corshmock> Okay
[20:03] <OvenWerks> pulse shows left and right most every thing else is 1 and 2
[20:04] <corshmock> So pulse is a major player here?
[20:05] <OvenWerks> pulse is what all the desktop audio goes through including the browser and most games.
[20:05] <OvenWerks>  (many video and music players too)
[20:06] <OvenWerks>  We automatically bridge pulse to jack and normally connect the output of pulse to the outputs in jack so the desktop adio just works
[20:06] <corshmock> Pulse as everything I see in Ubuntu Studio picks up every piece of hardware immediately.
[20:06] <OvenWerks> however pulse is not good enough for audio production as it is not bit perfect or low latency
[20:07] <OvenWerks>  When jack is started from -controls, pulse no longer sees any audio devices :)
[20:07] <corshmock> Jack locks them?
[20:07] <OvenWerks> jack becomes pulses only audio device
[20:08] <OvenWerks> actually yes and any device jack doesn't use we still tell pulse not to look at.
[20:09] <OvenWerks> I have had trouble with pulse seeing a device and not even using it but still affecting the sound quality of my main audio device
[20:09] <OvenWerks> also if pulse can see any audio device it will not allow jack to "free wheel"
[20:09] <OvenWerks>  free wheel is important for some programs when exporting audio to files
[20:10] <corshmock> Free wheel means to take control of any device it wants to?
[20:11] <OvenWerks> no, free wheel mean that jack is no longer locked to the audio device and starts the next cycle when all processes that need time are finished
[20:11] <OvenWerks>  this means export does not need to be in real time and yet can still use plugins
[20:13] <corshmock> When jack no longer has a device locked, Jack can freewheel to another device?  Not sure if I'm following you correctly
[20:14] <OvenWerks> no jack freewheels to itself.
[20:15] <corshmock> Jack allows itself to prioritize as it wants?
[20:15] <OvenWerks> or to put it another way it is not really locked to any thing and each cycle is only as long as needed to finish all calculations for that cycle
[20:15] <OvenWerks> so each cycle may be a different length
[20:16] <corshmock> Rather than, each cycle being of a determined length, which must be finished
[20:16] <OvenWerks> normally each cycle is the length of time between audio device iterupts
[20:16] <corshmock> This is very interesting I must say.
[20:17] <OvenWerks> this allows exports to happen faster than the elgth of the audio or take longer if the plugin math is too much for real time.
[20:17] <corshmock> It would be so nice if you just plugged everything in and it 'just worked', but I know this is not going to work that way :)
[20:18] <corshmock> That is one hell of an update.  It's still only at 32%!
[20:19] <OvenWerks> having come from analog studios (broadcast studios in my case) I would say it is easier and a lot closer to just working. However, the learning curve has not gotten any less
[20:19] <OvenWerks> for 18.04? ya, I don't we did "point" releases
[20:19] <corshmock> So you have a background in Audio Recording?
[20:20] <OvenWerks> broadcast. I have worked both in Radio and TV
[20:20] <OvenWerks> (so video... back when it was just ntsc)
[20:20] <corshmock> And you're a Developer too.
[20:20] <OvenWerks> That is self taugh mostly
[20:20] <OvenWerks> computers were not the thing they are now in the late 70s
[20:22] <corshmock> I don't know anything about recording.  Zero about Linux, but my simplistic goals are small, so I hope I can get those established, if even to a minimal degree.  My respects and thanks to you for the education you have been giving me.
[20:22] <OvenWerks> no problem
[20:23] <corshmock> That is one hell of an update.  I'm not sure the 40gb I gave that VM will be sufficient :)
[20:24] <OvenWerks> it should delete as much as it installs pretty much
[20:24] <OvenWerks> I use 40G for my installs and then mount my home directory separate
[20:25] <OvenWerks> I do this so that I don't loose my home directory when up grading or reinstalling or trying out something new in another partition
[20:26] <corshmock> Do you use VMs?
[20:27] <OvenWerks> no
[20:28] <corshmock> I don't understand the file system, so I know I would crush everything.  I also unplug any external hardrives :)
[20:28] <corshmock> sda sdb etc :)
[20:28] <corshmock> I'm used to drive letters, but I don't want to go back to windows.
[20:29] <corshmock> I do love this system but I have a LOT to learn to even get to grips with basics
[20:29] <OvenWerks> Most linux machines end up looking like a single drive
[20:30] <OvenWerks> So the drive/partition I install on would be / and my home directory is mounted as /home/
[20:30] <OvenWerks> it looks exactly the same as if it was all on one partition... but it's not
[20:36] <corshmock> I've seen this terminology but I need to read a good book on it.  I understand the directory structure, but I don't even know how to navigate it yet.
[20:36] <OvenWerks> for most use all you need to know is your own home directory
[20:37] <corshmock> To give you an idea of how zero I know about recording, I recorded myself singing over a backing track, posted it on a forum, and a guy said, TELL US YOU DIDN'T RECORD JUST SINGING INTO A MIC WITHOUT HEADPHONES ON.  At least now I know why they wear headphones when they're singing :) :) :)
[20:38] <OvenWerks> your own ears are the most important tool you have for recording
[20:39] <OvenWerks> finding what is making your ears tell you it's not right is the hard part...
[20:39] <corshmock> Oh and someone told me about headroom, so I am now equipped with the knowledge to blow the world away with my art :)
[20:40] <corshmock> It certainly sounds very difficult to find that.
[20:40] <corshmock> Maybe some people just have an Engineer or Producer who makes their music work?
[20:41] <OvenWerks> lots of people do. In a band there is ussually one person who understands at least some and the rest don't
[20:42] <corshmock> So you don't use VMs.  Do you have a multiple boot system?
[20:42] <OvenWerks> A lot of producers don't know much either, they have an engineer to yell at :)
[20:42] <corshmock> Oh>
[20:42] <corshmock> Oh?
[20:43] <OvenWerks> yes, I have a 2T drive and I split off 4 or 5 20 - 40 G partitions that I install into.
[20:43] <OvenWerks> For testing 20G is enough, for my working install I use 40G
[20:44] <corshmock> Is this just to try out different distributions?
[20:44] <OvenWerks> for testing prerelease ISOs for Studio mostly
[20:45] <OvenWerks>  Or I will install kubuntu or some other flavour to test -installer
[20:46] <corshmock> Do you make a living out of this or is it a labor of love?
[20:47] <OvenWerks> I am retired so volonteer
[20:48] <corshmock> Well you have certainly been keeping your brain very sharp, so great choice!
[20:49] <corshmock> And sorry, I don't mean to ask personal questions
[20:49] <OvenWerks> :)
[20:49] <OvenWerks> I play guitar and bass, generally don't sing much
[20:50] <OvenWerks> my recording is pretty much all analog. I don't play kb very much and so synths are not so interesting.
[20:51] <OvenWerks>  when I was using tape, I enjoyed the extra 16 tracks a midi sequencer could give me over just 8 on tape
[20:51] <corshmock> I used to play bass.  Nowadays, I might strum a few chords.  I actually did vocal tuition for a year a few years ago, and found out that I can actually sing a little bit.  Don't worry, you won't be within earshot, if I kick off a dodgy ballad :)
[20:51] <OvenWerks>  So I used some synths then
[20:52] <corshmock> kb?
[20:52] <OvenWerks> keyboard
[20:52] <corshmock> Just gotcha at the last second :)
[20:53] <OvenWerks> definately not a piano player, but I can do some strings and lead lines when pressed
[20:54] <corshmock> My keyboard skills are worse than my guitar, but as I say, I'm a very simplistic person.  I'm more interested in imaginative content than I am in virtuosity, for which I am very thankful :)
[20:54] <OvenWerks> that is generally best
[20:56] <corshmock> Absolutely.  I'm not impressed by people show casing their "skills".  I do appreciate great musicians, but I'm just more simplistic in my way.
[20:57] <OvenWerks> I like writer/singers who are singing about their own life and not just singing a song because it sounds nice.
[20:57] <OvenWerks> or someone who can relate to the writer and make a song their own is good too
[21:04] <corshmock> What about someone who just goes out there regardless of what everyone else is doing and isn't afraid to pursue their own direction, no matter how unusual it is (obviously not distasteful) ?
[21:05] <OvenWerks> hearing a 15 year old sing about their partner of many years leaving or dying doesn't do it for me... vocal gymnastics are anoying.
[21:05] <OvenWerks> if their heart is in it I am generally ok with it
[21:09] <corshmock> I have no contact with mainstream so I probably never hear those things.  The bits of it that leak through to me, I actually can't believe anyone could be sold on it.  However, we have always had mainstream and there are good moments to remember, so I'm sure there must be some good things.
[21:10] <corshmock> You sound like you're not asking too much.  I don't have kids and the dog only likes gentle classical music :)
[21:11] <OvenWerks> I have kids, a wife and a dog. My dog doesn't complain... the house is big enough we can all have our own space
[21:12] <OvenWerks> My wife likes to watch singing contests so I am tired of vocal gymnastics pretty much
[21:16] <corshmock> So that's what gymnastics are :)
[21:17] <corshmock> Lord I thought my one was bad :)  She watches the wedding dresses programs!
[21:19] <OvenWerks> Well my wife is not bad... she has a nice voice of her own, just poor taste in youtube viewing :)
[21:19] <corshmock> 71% on the updates now.  Hey, if you here of any up to date tutorials on Studio, that would be basic enough for me in getting Audio Interface, Headphones, Recording basic you might let me know if you wouldn't mind?
[21:20] <corshmock> My Missus hates music, but she doesn't admit it :)
[21:20] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: might know better that one...or others who lurk here
[21:21] <corshmock> People who hate music?
[21:21] <OvenWerks> know might know of good tutoials
[21:21] <corshmock> Maybe they're Photographers, or Movie Makers?
[21:23] <corshmock> Seeing as you have some idea of how UN-knowledgeable I am, you should be able to advise on appropriate content :)
[21:23] <corshmock> You've seen nothing yet :)
[21:25] <corshmock> By the way, how do you keep your home directory safe?  Do you just make a backup of it and restore it after you log in?  Or do you just make sure you don't install into the partition that your home directory is in?
[21:27] <OvenWerks> Generally just don't install in that partition, but I also have some back up
[21:36] <corshmock> 99%!
[21:37] <corshmock> It's just finished.  Should I try 'sudo apt-get install hexter', or should I bother?
[21:42] <corshmock> Hexter actually installed, but when I clicked on it, same as 19.10, nothing has happened.
[21:42] <corshmock> I mean Hexter installed as apart of those long updates
[21:56] <corshmock> .
[21:56] <corshmock> What a lovely channel