[05:09] <jam> morning all
[09:10] <Chipaca> ｇｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｏｄ  ｍｏｒｎｉｎｇ！
[09:11] <jam> morning Chipaca . it seems Guido was against main scripts inside packages
[09:11] <jam> I'm not sure why they created __main__.py then.
[09:19] <Chipaca> jam: is this related to the 'cannot import commands' thing?
[09:20] <jam> Chipaca, yes. You can see my investigation on mattermost, but basically when running the primary script
[09:20] <jam> your __name__ is __main__ which means you aren't part of a __package__
[09:21] <Chipaca> facubatista: I just opened latest/beta, and moved latest/edge to it, so people can use that and we can open master to edge in due course
[09:21] <Chipaca> jam: lol
[09:23] <Chipaca> jam: another LOL is that jujuignores aren't gitignores
[09:24] <jam> Chipaca, probably closer to bzr ignores I would guess
[09:24] <Chipaca> and the only gitignore python implementations seem to be terrible
[09:24] <Chipaca> e.g. https://github.com/mherrmann/gitignore_parser
[09:24] <Chipaca> 'A spec-compliant gitignore parser for Python'
[09:25] <jam> Chipaca, also, something to consider, one reason git ignores work well, is because you can create an exception with an explicit 'git add' but you can't do that for charms unless we have some sort of manifest
[09:25] <Chipaca> has an open issue about 'foo' matching 'barfoo'
[09:25] <Chipaca> and the author says "I have no idea LOL"
[09:25] <jam> Chipaca, I have no idea... always a good response :)
[09:25] <Chipaca> and it has no tests
[09:25] <Chipaca> even though it's based on a different project that does has tests, but hasn't seen work in years
[09:25] <Chipaca> (to the point that it's only been tested on 3.5)
[09:26] <Chipaca> and that summarises how far i got yesterday before hating the world and going to sleep :)
[09:27] <jam> Chipaca, don't hate the world, hate the... players ?
[09:28] <Chipaca> jam: I shall hate the world, by the power of synecdoche!
[09:32] <Chipaca> going back to jujuignore, it's a SMOP to translate https://github.com/juju/charm's jujuignore.go (and jujuignore_test.go) to python for our use
[09:32] <Chipaca> but I don't think I can make it for release
[09:32] <Chipaca> so I propose we look for a .jujuignore and bail out if it exists
[09:33] <jam> Chipaca, so what about .gitignore ?
[09:33] <jam> Switch and use 'git ls' ?
[09:33] <jam> or just do .jujuignore but otherwise add everything since that matches juju deploy ?
[09:34] <Chipaca> jam: well, that's the other approach
[09:34] <Chipaca> i was thinking of getting .gitignore parsing to work, which should be a day of work on top of one of the se projects
[09:34] <Chipaca> these*
[09:34] <jam> Chipaca, I'd go for 'juju deploy' over most other things, because that is setting the precedence
[09:34]  * jam goes to make coffee
[09:35] <Chipaca> fair
[09:35] <Chipaca> ok, let's do that
[09:35] <Chipaca> i should be able to do that :)
[09:35] <Chipaca> i don't think i can do that and 'charmcraft init' in four days though :)
[09:41] <jam> Chipaca, can you split off pieces that I can help with?
[09:41] <jam> eg, the jujuignore parser I could do while you focus on other things
[09:41] <Chipaca> jam: you also have plenty on your plate already :)
[09:42] <jam> Chipaca, indeed, but charmcraft release happens frist
[09:42] <jam> first
[09:45] <Chipaca> jam: ok let's do it
[09:46] <jam> Chipaca, ok, I'll put together a jujuignore.py for charmcraft
[09:50] <Chipaca> meanwhile i'll poke the init beast
[09:51] <Chipaca> facubatista: WRT --system, it's *probably* easier to try with --system and if it fails try again without
[10:02] <Chipaca> jam, facubatista: meeting
[10:17] <Chipaca> jam: in setup.py, set zip_safe=False
[10:18] <Chipaca> we can sort out the why and the how later :)
[10:21] <jam> Chipaca, to make it do what? It still doesn't solve the problem that you can't run "python ./charmcraft' because the import paths are wrong
[10:21] <jam> You *can* run python -m charmcraft for whatever reason
[10:21] <Chipaca> jam: ah, for 'python setup.py install' to work, i meant
[10:21] <jam> Chipaca, does zip_safe=false actually fix that? It seems like you still wouldn't have a 'charmcraft' you could drop in your path
[10:21] <Chipaca> work as in result in a working 'charmcraft' script
[10:22] <Chipaca> it does fix that, yes
[10:22] <Chipaca> that's the only difference between what 'setup.py install' and 'pip install' does
[10:24] <Chipaca> jam: python ./charmcraft  (and just 'python charmcraft') work as long as your PYTHONPATH includes .
[10:24] <Chipaca> jam: (which it shouldn't by default)
[10:24] <jam> Chipaca, but isn't that bad behavior?
[10:25] <jam> Chipaca, so my goal was to 'build something' and then symlink a 'charmcraft' into my 'bin' directory so I can just run it
[10:25] <jam> that feels like something that should work
[10:25] <jam> if zip_safe=false gets us there, that seems ek
[10:25] <jam> ok
[10:25] <Chipaca> jam: zip_safe=False gets you a charmcraft script in the venv's bin, which you should be able to symlink
[10:26] <Chipaca> i haven't tried that
[10:27] <jam> Chipaca, I just did and it works
[10:27] <jam> well, with venv active, let me try without
[10:27] <jam> yep
[10:27] <Chipaca> terrible news then
[10:27] <Chipaca> :)
[10:28] <Chipaca> jam: getting __main__.py to dtrt when it can find itself but not the package is a matter of tweaking sys.path, which is ugly but ok
[10:28] <Chipaca> and if we do that we might be able to move the entry point to that? dunno :)
[10:29] <Chipaca> at which point we get eggs back
[10:29] <Chipaca> but, not for now
[10:29] <Chipaca> now, for init
[10:29] <jam> zip_safe does what I wanted
[10:29] <jam> and is small
[11:35] <facubatista> ¡Muy buenos días a todos!
[11:36] <facubatista> Chipaca, ok with edge->beta, thanks
[11:44] <Chipaca> oh drat, lunch
[11:44] <Chipaca> facubatista: buen día seor!
[11:44] <Chipaca> but also, lunch
[12:45] <Chipaca> siiigh
[13:18] <facubatista> Chipaca, ?
[13:18] <Chipaca> facubatista: sigh
[13:19] <Chipaca> facubatista: :)
[13:19] <Chipaca> little frustrations with jinja
[13:19] <facubatista> :)
[14:17] <jam> Chipaca, what's wrong with jinja ?
[14:17] <jam> facubatista, reviewed your 'release' pr. I had a couple questions about divergence from snapcraft's CLI.
[14:17] <jam> If it is intentional, then go with it.
[14:17] <Chipaca> jam: it prunes the last \n when generating a file, and i hadn't spotted the option to turn that off :)
[14:18] <jam> Chipaca, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36870953/jinja2-how-to-remove-trailing-newline
[14:18] <jam> it seems '-%' the '-' is relevant
[14:20] <jam> Chipaca, and/or 'trim_blocks=True' 'lstrip_blocks=True' (or false) in Python
[14:20] <Chipaca> jam: nah, it was the keep_trailing_newline option on the environment i was missing
[14:20] <Chipaca> not in th eblocks
[14:20] <Chipaca> 's all sorted now :)
[14:20] <jam> Chipaca, as long as there is yet-another-way to do it
[14:20] <jam> :)
[14:21]  * jam aways
[14:21] <Chipaca> those options you mentio are about trimming the whitespace around {%s, as opposed to trimming the whitespace at the bottom of the file
[14:21] <Chipaca> anyway, yeah, all sorted
[14:21] <Chipaca> also i can't type
[14:39] <Chipaca> jam: the problem about "No module named 'charmcraft.commands'" kept on bugging me, but i figured it out: eggs don't like new-style namespace packages
[14:40] <Chipaca> jam: easiest fix for our woes: drop an __init__.pu in charmcraft/commands/
[14:40] <Chipaca> facubatista: is there a reason for not having that __init__ beyond "wasn't needed"?
[14:40] <Chipaca> jam: an __init__.py probably works better
[14:41] <Chipaca> than a .pu
[14:41] <Chipaca> what even is a pu
[14:41] <Chipaca> no don't answer
[14:43] <facubatista> Chipaca, I used that __init__.py so you can do this elegant thing in main.py:
[14:43] <facubatista> from charmcraft.commands import version, build, store
[14:43] <facubatista>         store.ReleaseCommand, store.StatusCommand,
[14:44] <Chipaca> facubatista: which __init__.py?
[14:44]  * Chipaca puzzled
[14:44] <facubatista> charmcraft.commands.store
[14:44] <facubatista> oh, wait
[14:44] <facubatista> you mean charmcraft/commands/__init__.py ?
[14:44] <Chipaca> yes
[14:44] <facubatista> there's not such thing
[14:44] <Chipaca> exactly
[14:44] <Chipaca> and that breaks things :)
[14:45] <Chipaca> nothing serious i don't think, but it does
[14:45] <Chipaca> facubatista: that's why 'python setup.py install' doesn't work
[14:45] <facubatista> Chipaca, it's not needed theorically
[14:45] <Chipaca> facubatista: because that builds an egg, and eggs don't like new-style namespace packages
[14:45] <facubatista> stupid rotten eggs
[14:46] <Chipaca> bah, it's supposed to be fixed in https://bugs.python.org/issue17633 but something's still off
[14:46] <Chipaca> because just dropping __init__.py in there fixes it :)
[14:47] <Chipaca> facubatista: the other alternative is zip_safe=False on setup.py/setup, but that's less nice i think
[14:50] <facubatista> Chipaca, I just did ./setup.py install --prefix=/tmp/foo
[14:50] <facubatista> which left me a lib/python3.8/site-packages/charmcraft-0.2.0-py3.8.egg in that dir
[14:50] <facubatista> I unzipped that egg
[14:50] <facubatista> and it has all the files ok in it
[14:50] <Chipaca> facubatista: yes. But try running the script that you get from that install.
[14:51] <Chipaca> you get
[14:51] <Chipaca> ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'charmcraft.commands'
[14:51] <Chipaca> from ...charmcraft.egg/charmcraft/main.py
[14:51] <Chipaca> line 25
[14:51] <Chipaca> which was puzzling because that comes right after 'from charmcraft import __version__'
[14:52] <Chipaca> and commands is right there in the egg
[14:52] <facubatista> Chipaca, actually, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/xzPhxjXgQN/
[14:53] <Chipaca> facubatista: i'm assuming prefix=/tmp/foo means you're not getting the egg added to your import path
[14:53] <Chipaca> facubatista: so try again with PYTHONPATH=/the/charmcraft.egg
[14:53] <facubatista> 11:53:38|facundo@blackfx:/tmp/foo$ PYTHONPATH=lib/python3.8/site-packages/ bin/charmcraft
[14:54] <facubatista>   File "/tmp/foo/lib/python3.8/site-packages/charmcraft-0.2.0-py3.8.egg/charmcraft/main.py", line 25, in <module>
[14:54] <facubatista> ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'charmcraft.commands'
[14:54] <Chipaca> k
[14:57] <Chipaca> facubatista: so that's what jam spotted yesterday, and is fixed by making commands not be a namespace package
[14:59] <facubatista> Chipaca, ok
[15:00] <Chipaca> facubatista: (please confirm) :)
[15:00] <facubatista> Chipaca, confirm what? that it works? or that the theory is solid? I don't know enough of that corner, don't want to spend a couple of hours reading about it unless necessary
[15:01] <Chipaca> facubatista: that dropping an __init__.py into commands makes it work
[15:01] <Chipaca> facubatista: but, eh, we can dig next week or the other
[15:01] <Chipaca> or i can propose a pr, innit
[15:01] <Chipaca> just a silly thing really, it was bugging me
[15:02] <facubatista> Chipaca, I don't care about it, people should be using snapcraft or the branch from github :p
[15:02] <facubatista> s/snapcraft/the snap/
[15:02] <facubatista> Chipaca, and IMO nobody should never ever do "sudo pip install"
[15:03] <Chipaca> pip install would've worked because it doesn't make eggs :)
[15:03] <facubatista> I wonder why :)
[15:04] <Chipaca> facubatista: i agree, but i also don't want things to break in strange ways
[15:04] <facubatista> Chipaca, more reasons! is adding quirks to our code good for the corner case of somebody installing running setup.py?
[15:04] <facubatista> Chipaca, as you wish
[15:04] <Chipaca> facubatista: we can't control how peple use our stuff :-)
[15:04] <Chipaca> we can only control what happens when they do
[15:05] <facubatista> Chipaca, but we have to prioritize where we invest our scarce time
[15:05]  * Chipaca invests it in diophantine equations
[15:06]  * facubatista invests in elephants equestrianism
[15:28] <alejdg> Hello everyone, I'd like to know if there's an alternative for unitdata.kv in the operator framework. If not what is the best way to save information pertinent to units
[15:34] <Chipaca> alejdg: I'm afraid I don't know what unitdata.kv is
[15:35] <Chipaca> alejdg: how would you do the thing in the absence of the operator framework?
[15:36] <alejdg> Chipaca: hey, this is what I'm referring to: https://charm-helpers.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/charmhelpers.core.unitdata.html
[15:38] <Chipaca> alejdg: that sounds like something you'd do using  _stored = StoredState()  on the charm class
[15:38] <Chipaca> alejdg: not sure doing deltas of config is a good pattern, but if you need to do it that's how you'd go about it
[15:40] <Chipaca> that'll give you per unit stored state. In the class's __init__ you'd do e.g. self._stored.set_default("some-kv", {}), and then you'd use self._stored["some-kv"] in the hook handlers
[15:40] <alejdg> nice I'll try that
[15:41] <alejdg> I'm doing that with some config data that comes from a relation.
[15:41] <alejdg> maybe there's a better practice for it?
[15:41] <Chipaca> alejdg: and you definitely need to react to _changes_ to that data, as opposed to the data itself?
[15:44] <alejdg> Chipaca: That data doesn't change once the relation has sent it
[15:45] <Chipaca> alejdg: ah so you're not looking for the "delta these things" feature, just the storing the data for later use?
[15:46] <Chipaca> then _stored is definitely what you want :-)
[15:46] <alejdg> gotcha, thanks a lot!
[15:57] <Chipaca> alejdg: the 'set_default' thing is possibly the only non-obvious bit of it, where if you forget to do that and instead do the more obvious self._stored["some-kv"] = {}  in the __init__, then you're overwriting it every time
[17:37] <crodriguez> How do I add an event? I added in init `self.framework.observe(self.on.restart_iscsi_services, self.on_restart_iscsi_services)`, I have a function defined `def on_restart_iscsi_services(self, event):`, and I added an actions.yaml file with `restart-iscsi-services` in it. But I get the error that `  File "./src/charm.py", line 47, in __init__
[17:37] <crodriguez>     self.framework.observe(self.on.restart_iscsi_services, self.on_restart_iscsi_services)
[17:37] <crodriguez> AttributeError: 'CharmEvents' object has no attribute 'restart_iscsi_services'`
[17:38] <crodriguez> I was looking at the example from https://github.com/openstack-charmers/charm-ceph-iscsi and they didn't add anything else than that for their actions
[17:38] <crodriguez> I want a user to be able to do : juju run-action restart-iscsi-services
[18:01] <facubatista> crodriguez, let me see
[18:09] <crodriguez> facubatista, jam told me it is because I'm missing _action at the end
[18:09] <facubatista> crodriguez, oh, right, I didn't remember that
[18:10] <crodriguez> there's not really an easy way to know that lol
[18:10] <facubatista> crodriguez, our documentation status makes me sad
[18:11] <crodriguez> me too :/
[18:11] <crodriguez> another question :) is there an easy way to set some configuration parameters as mandatory? Wondering if there is a reusable component somewhere or if I should code it myself
[18:28] <facubatista> I don't think there's anything in the operator for that
[18:37] <crodriguez> ok. Is there a way to stop the code execution after setting "self.unit.status = BlockedStatus" ?
[18:37] <crodriguez> the charm keeps on executing so the status gets cleared up really quickly
[18:45] <facubatista> "return"?
[18:45] <facubatista> crodriguez, I mean, if you set to blocked, and right away you do something and it gets unblocked it's fine, right?
[18:46] <facubatista> or if you go to blocked and want to stop doing things until another event arrives, just return to exit the method?
[19:30] <crodriguez> ah yeah I guess I could true/false on the check_mandatory_config function, and then exit on_install() with return depending on the result
[19:44] <crodriguez> So in reactive I would do something like event A triggers B, when B completed -> trigger C, etc. and that way I would avoid having a really long function doing B+C. Can I do the same with the framework.observe?
[19:45] <crodriguez> currently I have on.config_changed -> render_config . I would like to trigger something when render_config is completed
[20:38] <facubatista> crodriguez, have a function that does B, then another function that does C; then create a function that is hooked to event A, which calls B() and then C()
[20:39] <facubatista> I mean, it's something that can be solved simply enough at a Python level, doesn't need to have infrastructure for it
[20:43] <crodriguez> yeah it can be. I just got used to set states in reactive and triggers things with these states, I was wondering if there is an equivalent here
[21:23] <crodriguez> facubatista, I see options to set active, maintenance, blocked, but no option to set a charm in error state ? https://github.com/canonical/operator/blob/master/ops/model.py#L770
[22:02] <Chipaca> crodriguez: exiting with failure does that
[22:02] <Chipaca> i don't think you can 'set' error state otherwise
[22:03] <Chipaca> but i'm no expert :)
[22:19] <facubatista> jam, ^ :)
[22:20] <facubatista> crodriguez, sorry, I was off already
[22:20] <facubatista> (didn't see your message before)
[22:47] <crodriguez> oh hey :) no problem, notifications aren't great on my side neither. I think it would be good to be able to set an error state sometimes. It allows to set a message more explicit than "config-changed failed"


[14:21] <effiejayx> Good mid morning :)
[14:29] <czajkowski> aloha effiejayx
[14:30] <czajkowski> effiejayx: you've not joined the council channel
[14:43] <effiejayx> ahhh
[14:46] <effiejayx> just added it to autojoin thanks for the remidner czajkowski
[21:58] <JoseAntonioR> has the pre-order for 12.10 cds already started?
[22:16] <Geochr> JoseAntonioR, Not yet, we are waiting the announcement.
[22:16] <JoseAntonioR> Geochr: Thanks
[22:17] <Geochr> you're welcome


[01:06] <Andre_Gondim> there aren't daily build for i386 today?
[01:08] <urlin2u> Andre_Gondim, hasn't been for a couple always this way ay =th ehe transitions
[01:08] <urlin2u> at the
[01:09] <Andre_Gondim> ;)
[01:23] <charlie-tca> actually, alternate images are available at http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/daily/20110810/
[01:23] <charlie-tca> only the live/desktop images are failing
[01:25] <urlin2u> ubuntu daily live cd
[01:25] <urlin2u> ubuntu daily live cd
[01:25] <urlin2u> I was typing the browser and it shows here.
[02:27] <nlsthzn> Hi all, Just did an upgrade from Natty to Oneiric. Ubuntu 1 is giving me an error if I try and run it... Any issues at the moment (or should I go and make a bug report?)
[02:27] <nlsthzn> ubuntuone-control-panel-gtk crashed with ImportError in /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/ubuntuone-control-panel/ubuntuone/controlpanel/logger.py: cannot import name LOGFOLDER
[06:40] <magn3ts> You know what looks *really* good? Purple, grey, and orange.
[06:40] <magn3ts> Orange scrollbar on a purple terminal. Hot.
[07:04] <farciarz84> hi, time+calendar disappeared from task-bar. How to relounch it?
[07:16] <farciarz84> I've installed indicator-datetime, how to start it?
[08:24] <magn3ts> also, please tell me ubuntu isn't shipping with a guest acct enabled that can read the default users home dir
[08:24] <magn3ts> please
[08:29] <hv> Is there a way to "refresh" X11 after a new display is attached?
[08:29] <zniavre> relog ?
[08:30] <hv> ?
[08:30] <hv> was that for me?
[08:35] <Ian_Corne> hv: driver?
[08:35] <Ian_Corne> if you're using anything but the nvidia blob, use gnome-display-properties
[08:39] <hv> I don't have gnome-display-properties
[08:39] <hv> Now that I think of it, where did it go?
[08:41] <hv> there is the "Displays..." options in the indicator menu on the right.
[08:41] <hv> but that does not run gnome-display-properties anymore
[08:43] <hv> actually, apt-file tells me there is no gnome-display-properties in oneiric.
[08:46] <Ian_Corne> hmm
[08:46] <Ian_Corne> oh right sorry!
[08:46] <Ian_Corne> i'm on my 11.04 machine :D
[08:48] <hv> heh. OK. :)
[08:50] <hv> anyways.  Does X11 (xrandr, etc) have a way to "clean-up"/"refresh" a display?
[08:57] <hv> oh actually it seems it is compiz's problem, not X11.
[08:57] <hv> so after attaching a new display I have to restart compiz.
[09:07] <farciarz84> hi, time+calendar disappeared from menu-bar. How to relounch it?
[09:18] <davidcalle> farciarz84, have you tried /usr/lib/indicator-datetime/indicator-datetime-service ?
[10:19] <SMJ> after upgrading to Oneiric I haven't been able to compile my SDL program. is there something wrong with the headers? it's a single .cpp file with multiple headers, and it's linked with -lSDL in the compilation one-liner
[10:20] <SMJ> " undefined reference to `SDL_Init' "
[10:20] <SMJ> etc
[10:25] <IdleOne> !info colord
[10:28] <farciarz84> davidcalle: (process:11353): libindicator-WARNING **: No watchers, service timing out.
[10:28] <farciarz84> (process:11353): Indicator-Datetime-WARNING **: Shutting down service!
[11:48] <oimon> is ubuntu one control panel broken in 11.10 alpha currently?
[11:52] <SMJ> so... how do I change the fonts in the new classic Ubuntu?
[11:57] <SMJ> if changing fonts is impossible, I'll lose all hope in Ubuntu
[11:58] <SMJ> any recommendations for the next distro to try?
[11:58] <SMJ> anyone around?
[11:59] <Ian_Corne> yes
[11:59] <Ian_Corne> I am around
[12:01] <oimon> SMJ i think stuff is missing in the alpha at the moment cos they pulled in gtk3 stuff
[12:04] <coz_> Ian_Corne,   do you know if there is a min iso available yet?
[12:04] <coz_> mini
[12:04] <Ian_Corne> I don't know
[12:04] <Ian_Corne> but i'd guess not
[12:04] <Ian_Corne> are you limited in bandwith?
[12:05] <Ian_Corne> otherwise, just go for a server iso, remove all you don't want and build from there?
[12:05] <Ian_Corne> I got an ubuntu down to 26mb used like that
[12:05] <Ian_Corne> ram that is
[12:05] <coz_> Ian_Corne,  no  not limited,, I just got used to using the mini
[12:06] <Ian_Corne> well, using a mini for alpha testing is wel...
[12:06] <coz_> Ian_Corne,   yes  no need to complete that :)
[14:23] <AlexDevilLX> Hi
[14:24] <AlexDevilLX> where can i get xubuntu 11.10 DVD 32bit?
[14:24] <bazhang> hi
[14:24] <Ian_Corne> AlexDevilLX: I'm gonna guess you can't yet
[14:24] <Ian_Corne> either way, it's still alpha :)
[14:24] <AlexDevilLX> so
[14:24] <AlexDevilLX> i cant get kernel 3
[14:24] <AlexDevilLX> ?
[14:26] <oimon> AlexDevilLX: get the ubuntu 11.10 and install xubuntu-desktop for now
[14:27] <oimon> will 11.10 have a new xfce release?
[14:28] <oimon> i guess there isn't a new one to put in. 4.8 is the latest
[14:37] <Ian_Corne> AlexDevilLX: if you only want the 3.0.1 kernel
[14:37] <Ian_Corne> there's a ppa
[14:50] <charlie-tca> Ypu can never get xubuntu on DVD.
[14:56] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[15:00] <SMJ> why do Ubuntu and GNOME developers want to make the users completely disabled? how do I change the language I want to use? formerly most of the display managers had a menu at login.
[15:02] <popey> SMJ: in 11.10 ?
[15:06] <SMJ> yes.
[15:07] <charlie-tca> oimon: It will have the latest versions of all the modules
[15:08] <charlie-tca> but we will have to wait until 12.04 for Xfce 4.10
[16:54] <BluesKaj> BBL ...shaggy lawn needs a haircut
[17:15] <mauri> error using moun to update package: it seems that Qapt is missing o disappers............ WHAT SHOULD i DO
[17:58] <ephan> I have a question about the Daily Builds of 11.10
[17:58] <ephan> What is an alternate iso?
[17:58] <Pici> !alternate
[17:58] <h00k> d'aw, you beat me :)
[17:58] <Pici> :)
[17:58] <ephan> Thanks guys
[17:58] <ephan> I can use it to install it on real hardware too right?
[17:59] <h00k> ephan: yep
[17:59] <ephan> thanks, time to go and upgrade
[18:03] <h00k> ephan: good luck
[18:03] <h00k> ephan: you can also 'sudo do-release-upgrade -d' as well
[19:31] <topyli> i'm using vanilla gnome. when i unplug my power adapter, my laptop incorrectly reports a critically low battery state for something like 10-20 seconds until it becomes sane again. as a result, gnome-power-manager hibernates the machine
[19:31] <topyli> i used to be able to turn this off in gconf, but the setting now does nothing. i can't find a suitable dconf key
[19:32] <topyli> halp :)
[19:32] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu?
[19:32] <Pici> gnome3?
[19:32] <topyli> bah
[19:32] <topyli> Pici: yes
[19:32] <topyli> oneiric, vanilla gnome session
[19:35] <topyli> the gconf key worked in 3.0 on debian even, but not anymore in this 3.1.x that we  have
[19:35] <topyli> of course it doesn't really help that hibernation doesn't work but the machine just freezes :)
[19:42] <topyli> a-ha! they've moved a lot of the functionality to gnome-settings-daemon
[19:45] <topyli> ok, it's it's in org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.power, set critical-battery-action to 'nothing'
[19:45] <topyli> fyi :)
[19:49] <topyli> the guilty release: http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/GNOME/core/3.1/3.1.4/NEWS
[19:55] <h00k> I still have the battery bar on my desktop
[20:02] <topyli> h00k: i do have it as well, and of course i want to see how low i am. i just disable the auto-die-on-battery action :)
[20:32] <BUGabundo> wuzzzuppp ?
[20:32] <BUGabundo> who broke X again?
[20:32] <BUGabundo> .D
[20:32] <BUGabundo> had to use $ startx just to be with you guys
[20:37] <h00k> BUGabundo: what dedication. I'm touched!
[20:43] <topyli> if startx starts x, obviously it's not broken
[20:45] <BUGabundo> topyli: okay... lightdm
[22:54] <dr_willis> Hmm. VLC workng for anyone else.. it just pops up a window with no borders or anything here..
[22:56] <AlanBell> I think desktopcouch is a bit borked
[22:56] <AlanBell> quickly apps won't run because they want authentication
[22:56] <dr_willis> well vlc video.avi   works...
[22:56] <BUGabundo> PA is DOA
[22:57] <BUGabundo> took me a couple of pulseaudio -k to get it working
[22:57] <BUGabundo> cifs is dead on boot too
[22:57] <dr_willis> but just 'vlc'  displays just the title bar in an odd shadowy way. Oh wait - i am on gnome-shell also. so that might have part to do with it.
[22:57] <BUGabundo> lightdm messy
[22:57] <BUGabundo> chromium is back to being slow
[22:57] <dr_willis> ive not updated in a few hrs... :)
[22:57] <BUGabundo> most media players have been broken for me for weeks
[22:57] <Ian_Corne> dr_willis: i get that with empathy when it starts at login
[22:57] <Ian_Corne> i kill it and then reopen, and it works
[22:58] <BUGabundo> gnome.player, totem, mplayer, none will play from CIFS
[23:07] <h00k> So, my unity is broken right now, so I grabbed the gnome session, my toolbars are *ugly*, any protips for getting the actual theme installed?
[23:14] <jbicha> h00k: make sure gnome-themes-standard is installed and then use gnome-tweak-tool to set Adwaita as your window theme
[23:16] <h00k> jbicha: 'gnome tweak tool' is the only one to do that?
[23:16] <jbicha> h00k: you could do it manually with dconf-editor (part of dconf-tools) if you like
[23:18] <h00k> jbicha: 'tweak' type tools worry me (remember automatix)
[23:19] <h00k> but I'll try it
[23:20] <jbicha> h00k: gnome-tweak-tool is nothing like those tools, it's just a front-end to dconf and gconf
[23:20] <h00k> jbicha: I see that now
[23:22] <jbicha> it could even be a simpler replacement for ccsm if someone gets around to submitting tweak pages for Unity
[23:22] <h00k> even with adwaita, it looks oogly -> http://i.imgur.com/b3ez6.jpg
[23:22] <h00k> unless I have to log out/back in
[23:23] <jbicha> h00k: check Windows> Theme
[23:23] <h00k> jbicha: Adwaita
[23:23] <h00k> toggle maximize, lower, menu
[23:23] <jbicha> then try logging out
[23:25] <h00k> jbicha: much prettier.
[23:46] <edgy> Hi, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily-live/current/ doesn't contain an iso for amd64!
[23:51] <charlie-tca> edgy: daily-live images have been broken since monday
[23:51] <charlie-tca> Hoping to have one tomorrow
[23:51] <edgy> charlie-tca: I want to try update-manager -d to upgrade from natty. Are there serious issues?
[23:52] <charlie-tca> yes
[23:52] <charlie-tca> I would wait a day, at least
[23:54] <edgy> charlie-tca: thanks for hint
[23:55] <charlie-tca> FeatureFreeze today, by tomorrow, maybe things will settle down now
[23:55] <jbicha> edgy: there's a brand new Unity that hasn't been fully tested yet & other last-minute changes
[23:56] <edgy> jbicha: but I can at least switch to kde or gnome if unity has problems, right? beside unity never worked for me before ;)
[23:58] <charlie-tca> Um, why did unity break Kubuntu and Xubuntu?
[23:58] <charlie-tca> I think there are some other issues, too
[23:58] <jbicha> edgy: tomorrow may still be safer as there are some transitions today
[23:59] <h00k> that brand-new unity is broken for me right now ;)
[23:59] <edgy> charlie-tca, jbicha: I will appreciate it if you can help me in my new buy. In our local shop we have HP Pavilion dv6-6185ex and HP Pavilion dv6-6096ex. I am not sure whether oneiric would support these and would also want to know which is better


[09:09] <tsdgeos> ah funny
[09:10] <tsdgeos> the qmluitests in tableStage pass here
[09:29] <tsdgeos> meh the autopkg tests branch has degraded into tests not passing again
[09:31] <tsdgeos> at least one i know what it is
[09:31] <ltinkl> tsdgeos, https://code.launchpad.net/~lukas-kde/unity8/globalshortcuts/+merge/269608 merged and conflicts resolved
[09:32] <tsdgeos> ltinkl: ok, i'll let daniel continue the review
[09:32] <ltinkl> tsdgeos, it had been approved already
[09:32] <tsdgeos> ah right
[09:33] <ltinkl> tsdgeos, by mzanetti too
[09:35] <ltinkl> tsdgeos, thx
[10:09] <tsdgeos> wops, testNotifications broke
[10:09]  * tsdgeos fixes
[10:25] <tsdgeos> Saviq: was speaking with someone yesterday that had exactly the same issue with the cropped images as we do
[10:26] <tsdgeos> maybe after a bit of testing we can propose the CroppedImageMinimumSourceSize up to the SDK?
[10:26] <Saviq> tsdgeos, I'd rather we propose a change to the Qt APIs
[10:26] <tsdgeos> Saviq: what would you propose?
[10:26] <Saviq> tsdgeos, not sure yet, sourceSize: minimumSize(200, 300) or something of the sort
[10:26] <Saviq> Qt.minimumSize I mean
[10:27] <Saviq> would be backwards compatible
[10:28] <tsdgeos> i guess it might work
[10:43] <kgunn> pstolowski: hey there, i'm trying to untangle a mess
[10:43] <kgunn> so i understand lp:unity-api and lp:unity-api/trunk-15.04 are different
[10:43] <kgunn> was hoping to just merge trunk15.04 differences into lp:unity-api
[10:44] <kgunn> but heard  you might not think that's kosher
[10:44] <kgunn> is there any reason these are being maintained seperately ?
[11:04] <tsdgeos> :/ qmltestrunner::ShellWithPin::test_longLeftEdgeDrags is unstable
[11:41] <pstolowski> kgunn, hey,
[11:44] <pstolowski> kgunn, that happened during gcc5.0 mayhem. tbh i'm not sure anymore why i branched off unity-api since it doesn't have symbols, we could use a single tree (but we can't have single tree for e.g. shell plugin)
[11:45] <pstolowski> kgunn, having said that, both trunks are equal feature-wise, may have different revisions and commits as i cherry-picked
[11:49] <pstolowski> kgunn, ah, afair it had to do with needing to land stuff for ota6 while dual landing was not possible due to gcc5
[12:23] <Saviq> pstolowski, so we could reconcile now? why is it not possible to have a single tree for the shell plugin? can't do some #ifdefs?
[12:24] <Saviq> pstolowski, they're built separately for wily and v+o after all?
[12:24] <Saviq> or is it about the .symbols file differing between the two?
[12:24] <pstolowski> Saviq, due to symbols
[12:25] <Saviq> that feels dumb, but I feel the pain
[12:26] <Saviq> pstolowski, even if separate branches, landing can be done in sync, right? so it's not like there's actual code differences
[12:26] <pstolowski> Saviq, we can probably try to merge unity-api trunks back (i'm not sure if it poses any problems wrt citrain, but they are probably easy to work out)
[12:26] <Saviq> I mean that the fact that you need two branches there doesn't mean any dependants need to have two
[12:27] <Saviq> pstolowski, that'd be ideal, I'll compile a list of tasks for this to happen
[12:27] <Saviq> thanks
[12:27] <pstolowski> Saviq, correct - but you need to have separate MPs for unity-api, meaning you cannot just dual land
[12:28] <pstolowski> Saviq, okay. for shell plugin it's not easily doable though
[12:28] <pstolowski> Saviq, we have similar problem in unity-scopes-api (symbols)
[12:28] <Saviq> pstolowski, as long as the two (wily and v+o) changes land in sync, we're fine
[12:28] <pstolowski> Saviq, michi has been working on a single-tree beanch for unity-scopes-api, it's huge effort
[12:28] <Saviq> pstolowski, it's only a problem when one lags behind the other
[12:29] <pstolowski> Saviq, yeah. we just need two MPs as before with rtm
[12:29] <pstolowski> feature-wise all trunks should be the same
[12:33] <pstolowski> alecu, ho?
[12:48] <tsdgeos> anyone feels like reviewing https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity8/autopilot_test_search_workaround/+merge/269769 ?
[12:48] <tsdgeos> mterry: https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity8/fixTestNotifications/+merge/269876
[12:49] <mterry> tsdgeos, whoops, will review that  :)
[12:50] <mzanetti> mterry, good morning
[12:50] <mterry> mzanetti, hello!
[12:50] <mzanetti> mterry, when you get a chance, please merge your reboot branch
[12:50] <mterry> mzanetti, will do
[12:50] <mzanetti> ta
[12:59] <kgunn> Saviq if i followed your convo with pstolowski correctly , i think this just needs to be landed in wily first
[12:59] <kgunn> https://code.launchpad.net/~unity-team/unity-api/fwdport-mirsurfaceitem/+merge/269881
[12:59] <kgunn> then...src sync that to vivid+o
[12:59] <kgunn> well...plus qtmir trunk into wily with that unity-api mp ^
[12:59] <kgunn> i'll leave it with you...
[13:00] <Saviq> kgunn, something like that, I need to see the what the actual direction (wily to v+o or the other way round) will be, but in truth we just need the next landing to be dual-targeted and then push to trunks and drop the additional branches
[13:00] <tsdgeos> greyback: any idea of what may be causing the failures in https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/unity-phablet-qmluitests-vivid/939/consoleFull ?
[13:01] <tsdgeos> greyback: the tabletStage ones
[13:01] <greyback> Saviq: fyi seems tags have infected qtmir somehow
[13:01] <tsdgeos> greyback: search for "fail!"
[13:01] <Saviq> greyback, yeah, mzanetti told me
[13:01] <mzanetti> still not sure how tho :D
[13:01] <Saviq> yikes
[13:01] <Saviq> "reached maximum number of OpenGL contexts supported by UbuntuShape"
[13:01] <greyback> tsdgeos: "fail!" ?
[13:02] <tsdgeos> greyback: without the quotes
[13:02] <Saviq> and that in DDA test??
[13:02] <tsdgeos> Saviq: SDK
[13:02] <mzanetti> lol
[13:02] <tsdgeos> Saviq: it's already fixed they just need to land it
[13:02] <greyback> tsdgeos: yeah, firefox not seeing it. Ah matching case, sorry
[13:02] <Saviq> ah so that's not the fail you're looking for
[13:02]  * greyback waves hand
[13:02] <tsdgeos> Saviq: no since that's not on the phablet stage ;)
[13:03] <tsdgeos> Saviq: this is the one for the DDA one https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/betterConnectForAboutToBeDestroyed/+merge/268454
[13:03] <Saviq> ktxbai
[13:04] <greyback> tsdgeos: we had this same problem like 2 weeks ago, no?
[13:04] <tsdgeos> greyback: did we?
[13:04] <greyback> yeah. UbuntuShape doing something funky
[13:04] <greyback> I thought there was a fix somewhere, looking
[13:04] <tsdgeos> greyback: yes yes, i'm not speaking about the ubuntushape
[13:04] <Saviq> greyback, look for further fail!
[13:04] <greyback> ah sorry
[13:04] <tsdgeos> greyback: i'm speaking about the tabletstage fails
[13:05] <tsdgeos> greyback: which obviously i can't reproduce here
[13:07] <greyback> tsdgeos: hmm  the test makes sense too
[13:08] <greyback> something racey maybe
[13:08] <greyback> tho this is all single thread I think
[13:11] <greyback> tsdgeos: only thing I can suspect is switchToApp - it looks quite solid tho
[13:11] <tsdgeos> yeah :/
[13:11] <tsdgeos> and is used in other places too i think
[13:11] <greyback> dandrader: good morning, there is a multimonitor update for you
[13:12] <greyback> tsdgeos: I see it used in 2 tests, both are the ones which fail
[13:12] <tsdgeos> ah
[13:12] <tsdgeos> right
[13:12] <tsdgeos> ^_^
[13:12] <tsdgeos> maybe it's that then
[13:12] <dandrader> greyback, ok
[13:13] <greyback> just a guess tho, it runs fine here annoyingly
[13:13] <tsdgeos> i'll try to investigate from there
[13:13] <greyback> would be lovely to get videos of test fails
[13:13] <greyback> ilke AP does
[13:15] <Saviq> greyback, I've a thing doing that in my pipeline
[13:15] <Saviq> as in mostly implemented
[13:16] <greyback> Saviq: glad to hear it. Would be extra super nice if it visualize the cursor/gestures
[13:16] <Saviq> greyback, I'm just using recordmydesktop, should be possible to replace that with something smarter, if that doesn't do it
[13:17] <Saviq> greyback, ah but for QML tests we'd need something in the qmlscene doing that
[13:17] <Saviq> since there's no real input
[13:17] <Saviq> next step
[13:17] <greyback> yeah
[13:18] <greyback> a custom qmlscene might be needed
[13:18] <greyback> anyhoo, video will help muchos
[13:18] <mterry> tsdgeos, you might have some insight on bug 1489076?
[13:19] <tsdgeos> mterry: hmmm think you want dandrader for that?
[13:19] <tsdgeos> i haven't really done much DDA nor windowed work
[13:19] <mterry> tsdgeos, yup, I think I mentally swapped you two  :P
[13:20] <tsdgeos> ok :D
[13:20] <mterry> tsdgeos, which is weird because dandrader even has "DandD" in his name
[13:20] <mterry> dandrader, anyway ^
[13:21] <dandrader> :)
[13:22] <Saviq> mterry, dandrader, shouldn't we just have a MouseArea there for onClicked? DDA doesn't care about mouse events anyway?
[13:22] <dandrader> mterry, I would have to investigate the bug to be able to provide any decent insight
[13:22] <dandrader> Saviq, define "there"
[13:23] <Saviq> dandrader, wherever the DDA is, really
[13:23] <Saviq> wherever we want the click to act ;)
[13:23] <mterry> Saviq, does it pass them through?  that might work then, to extend the MouseArea from the left of the panel to all along the panel, underneath the indicators
[13:23] <dandrader> the indicators bar already has a MouseArea
[13:23] <mterry> dandrader, yeah but it doesn't extend underneath the indicators, as I recall
[13:24] <dandrader> which is why you're able show the indicators panel by simply clicking on the bar
[13:24] <dandrader> mterry, there might be a MouseArea "input eater" over there, I don't lnow
[13:24] <dandrader> know
[13:25] <mterry> dandrader, the indicators panel shows with a click?  ok, good...  Then *something* is eating the mouse event / my quick investigation was wrong
[13:25] <Saviq> mterry, in any case, DDA shouldn't be involved with mouse events
[13:26] <Saviq> there's obviously the problem of mouse events being converted to touch, and vice versa...
[13:26] <mterry> Saviq, (why not?  it conceptually makes sense that it could handle a mouse drag -- just work we haven't done or is it something we think shouldn't be done?)
[13:26] <Saviq> but as long as you accept the event, it shouldn't happen
[13:26] <dandrader> mterry, what do you mean by "indicators panel"? it that this narrow bar at the top of the thing you get when you expand it
[13:26] <Saviq> mterry, mouse gestures need to be different than touch
[13:26] <dandrader> mterry, dednick added a MouseArea in the indicator bar a while ago to handle this call thingy I think
[13:27] <mterry> dandrader, I specifically meant the IndicatorsMenu object
[13:27] <mterry> dandrader, yeah, but it only is on left of IndicatorsMenu
[13:27]  * dandrader not very familiar with the indicator components terminology
[13:27] <mterry> Saviq, yeah but it would be nice if we had a class that abstracted that for us
[13:28] <mterry> and without looking at it's API, DDA strikes me as a possible fit for that
[13:28] <mterry> dandrader, then I meant "the row of icons"
[13:29] <tsdgeos> mterry: https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity8/fixTestNotifications/+merge/269876/comments/679272 up to you, do i do it?
[13:29] <Saviq> mterry, sure, but it wouldn't be DDA but something above it, including a MouseArea, likely ;)
[13:29]  * Saviq away otp
[13:30] <mterry> tsdgeos, I think it's a cleaner branch if we do it.  But I feel bad asking you to do it, since it's my mistake in the first place.  I can propose a merge into your MP today
[13:30] <tsdgeos> mterry: no no, i'll do it
[13:30] <tsdgeos> don't worry
[13:31] <tsdgeos> i'm on test failure hunting today
[13:31] <tsdgeos> mzanetti: can you do https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity8/stabilize_shellwithpin_test/+merge/269913 ?
[13:32] <mzanetti> tsdgeos, sure
[13:46] <tsdgeos> mterry: setStatus pushed
[13:47] <mterry> k
[13:48] <mterry> tsdgeos, that was a few calls indeed  :)
[13:51] <mzanetti> tsdgeos, this seems to have the ability to mess up with the state machine... doesn't it?
[13:52] <tsdgeos> mzanetti: not really i mean the problem is that for some reason we're using a timer to set the state
[13:52] <tsdgeos> so if you do
[13:52] <tsdgeos> starttimer that changes state, change state
[13:52] <tsdgeos> you really need to stop the timer first
[13:52] <tsdgeos> otherwise you may not get the state you wanted
[13:52] <mzanetti> yes, but we don't do "change state"
[13:52] <mzanetti> do we?
[13:53] <tsdgeos> mzanetti: if you we do, i can move that down on the animation code if you prefer
[13:53] <mzanetti> let me understand it better...
[13:53] <mzanetti> tsdgeos, we do... you're right
[13:54] <mzanetti> ok... seems fine then
[13:54] <tsdgeos> maybe it makes more sense to stop the timer just before the
[13:54] <tsdgeos> root.state = "";
[13:54] <tsdgeos> ?
[13:54] <tsdgeos> on the ScriptAction { ?
[13:54] <tsdgeos> i don't mind either
[13:54] <mzanetti> probably... so we don't run into this again
[13:54] <tsdgeos> k, will move it down there
[13:54] <mzanetti> if someone else starts the fadeOut() , which admittedly is unlikely
[13:55] <tsdgeos> i don't even think you can reproduce this in the real world
[13:55] <mzanetti> probably
[14:18] <tsdgeos> mzanetti: moved down
[14:19] <mzanetti> tsdgeos, ta
[14:27] <kgunn> greyback: mzanetti how do twins currently work ? it's been a while...do i have to manually update watch file still ?
[14:27] <kgunn> or just have an mp for -gles and build it in the silo ?
[14:28] <mzanetti> kgunn, yeah, no change
[14:28] <greyback> kgunn: yep
[14:28] <mzanetti> kgunn, debian/watch for the silo number and debian/changelog for the version
[14:28] <kgunn> mzanetti: ack no change except those, got it
[14:28] <greyback> and keep eye out for new dependencies
[14:29] <kgunn> greyback: so compare the control files ? between the twins
[14:29]  * kgunn always wants to think parent-child vs twins
[14:29] <greyback> kgunn: yeah, just in case the 'parent' has something added
[14:30] <mzanetti> if the branch you're releasing changes the control, copy the changes over
[14:30] <kgunn> easy nuff
[14:30] <mzanetti> @unity: standup
[14:30] <kgunn> mzanetti: i'll miss
[14:30] <kgunn> todays
[14:48] <Saviq> @unity, kgunn, pstolowski: here's what I believe we should do to resync trunks between wily and vivid, anything I'm missing? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12253846/
[14:48] <Saviq> kgunn, vivid has mir 0.14.1, wily has 0.15.1, what's the plan there?
[14:51] <pstolowski> Saviq, looks good overall, but i think citrain will reject the first step (land a src rebuild of lp:unity-api/trunk-15.04 to wily) without some changelog hackery?
[14:52] <Saviq> pstolowski, I think it shouldn't, the version is higher than what's there in wily
[14:53] <Saviq> pstolowski, ultimately we can skip the train altogether and just upload the package to proposed directly
[14:53] <pstolowski> Saviq, the ...+15.04 part of version string will confuse it
[14:54] <Saviq> pstolowski, don't think it looks that closely, we were dual-landing to rtm and distro before
[14:54] <Saviq> without the -rtm suffix
[14:54] <Saviq> and it was fine
[14:55] <pstolowski> Saviq, ok, we will see :), i fought with something like that not long ago
[14:55] <pstolowski> Saviq, i guess we just need to try
[14:56] <mzanetti> Saviq, looks good to me
[14:56] <Saviq> pstolowski, yup
[14:57] <Saviq> back in ~2.5h
[14:58] <tsdgeos> Saviq: overlay has 0.15 too, no?
[14:58] <tsdgeos> Saviq: ah no, ignore me
[15:40] <mzanetti> greyback, kgunn: what's the ETA for silo0 things to land? I cannot reproduce bug 1488828 but I don't have slimport support and silo0 is out of date
[15:42] <greyback> mzanetti: silo0 more a demo silo than full of actually landable things
[15:42] <greyback> mzanetti: we're taking things a piece at a time
[15:42] <mzanetti> greyback, sure. I'm particularly interested in the slimport support
[15:43] <greyback> mzanetti: well that's probably a bit of https://code.launchpad.net/~gerboland/qtmir/multimonitor/+merge/269906
[15:43] <mzanetti> ah ok
[15:44] <greyback> but there's also some magic in silo0 to automatically use desktop mode if >1 screens available
[15:44] <greyback> which you'll not have
[15:44] <greyback> maybe convert to desktop mode by attaching BT mouse & keyboard, then emulate the call?
[15:46] <dednick> dandrader, mterry: I've commented on 1489076, but need a UX decision.
[15:48] <mzanetti> greyback, that's fine... I can do that
[15:48] <mzanetti> greyback, I've done incoming calls in desktop mode very often lately and didn't have a crash
[15:48] <mzanetti> so the only thing that's different here is the missing slimport
[15:48] <greyback> mzanetti: then it must be silo0 specific
[15:49] <mzanetti> let me try to do the exact same phonesim steps first (I usually use a real phone call)
[15:49] <tsdgeos> mterry: in exchange for fixing the notification thing can you review https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity8/autopilot_test_search_workaround/+merge/269769 ? ;)
[15:49] <mterry> tsdgeos, :)  sure
[15:50] <tsdgeos> cool
[15:58] <tsdgeos> meh all the qmluitests jobs are stuck
[15:58] <tsdgeos> http://s-jenkins.ubuntu-ci:8080/job/unity-phablet-qmluitests-vivid/ :/
[15:59] <tsdgeos> mzanetti: anyone we can ping? ↑
[15:59] <mzanetti> tsdgeos, cihelp in #ubuntu-ci-eng
[16:00] <tsdgeos> k, need to do paperwork
[16:00]  * tsdgeos runs
[16:38] <syeh> Hi, newbie Unity question, how do I check out the code for 14.04?  I think the version I want is 7.2.5+14.04.20150603-0ubuntu1
[16:39] <syeh> I've done a "bzr branch lp:unity" and got a version of source
[16:40] <syeh> But for some reason that version won't start after I've make and "make install"
[16:48] <dednick> syeh: if you want the source for the version which you are currently running, "apt-get source unity"
[16:49] <syeh> dednick:  I am trying to fix a defect, and so I need to get the tree, test it, then push it
[16:51] <dednick> syeh: "bzr branch lp:unity/7.2"
[16:52] <dednick> syeh: https://code.launchpad.net/~unity-team/unity/trusty
[16:52] <syeh> dednick:  Thanks!   Trying that now.
[18:35] <syeh> ChrisTownsend:  in unityshell.cpp, is UNITY_LOW_GFX_MODE supposed to be an override in the case that it is set to "0"
[18:37] <ChrisTownsend> syeh: Right, so if you set UNITY_LOW_GFX_MODE=1 before starting unity, then unity will be started in low graphics mode.
[18:37] <syeh> what if I set it to 0, can I force it to not be in low gfx mode?
[18:37] <syeh> The current code won't allow that, but I'm wondering if that's the intention
[18:40] <ChrisTownsend> syeh: Oh, I see.  If it's being forced into low graphics mode without UNITY_LOW_GFX_MODE being set, it's due to your hardware configuration.  Setting UNITY_LOW_GFX_MODE=0 will not force non-low graphics mode.
[18:41] <syeh> Right, so would it be okay if I make it so that a user can force it to *not* go into low gfx mode?
[18:41] <syeh> A couple of drivers are now reporting "LLVM" in their renderer string.
[18:42] <syeh> I'm working on a Unity patch to fix that, and maybe providing a way to override the behavior if necessary
[18:43] <ChrisTownsend> syeh: Hmm, are they really LLVM drivers or is it a case they just happen to use that string and Unity is not accounting for that?
[18:43] <ChrisTownsend> syeh: I just want to make sure 3d is not enabled for real LLVM drivers and the user experience will be terrible.
[18:45] <syeh> Gallium drivers have a fall back path for certain draw operations (if they need it)
[18:46] <syeh> and the Gallium Draw module can use LLVM if it is available
[18:46] <syeh> it is different from the llvmpipe driver, which is a SW driver
[18:47] <syeh> So I think Unity should check for "llvmpipe" not "LLVM"
[18:48] <ChrisTownsend> syeh: Sure, that makes sense.
[18:48] <syeh> ok.  What about the override path for UNITY_LOW_GFX_MODE = 0?
[18:49] <syeh> Does that make sense or should I leave it the way it currently is?
[18:56] <ChrisTownsend> syeh: I think you should do one merge proposal for the LLVM vs. llvmpipe change.  Then you could do a second one for the override and see if it be accepted.  I no longer work on Unity, so others will have to decide if it should be taken or not.  You may want to discuss that will Trevinho when he's available.
[18:57] <syeh> ok.  Will do.  Thanks.
[19:09] <kgunn> Saviq hey so i'm not getting my way on working around that little unity-api/qtmir
[19:10] <kgunn> any eta on when i might be able to dual land a qtmir again ?
[19:21] <Trevinho> syeh: I'm currently travelling in China so I'll be more reachable next week. If you have a MP ready would be nice.
[19:22] <syeh> Trevinho:  I can't get through the firewall to push my branch, so I've attached it here:
[19:22] <syeh> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/1491555
[19:36] <Saviq> kgunn, I want to prepare a silo with what I wrote in the pastebin tomorrow
[19:37] <Saviq> kgunn, but that might very well be a dual-landing of qtmir, too
[19:41] <Saviq> or well, *will* be, we can add commits to it if you want
[20:19] <kgunn> SAviq i think so...just need to stay in sync with bregma and camako, but yeah, it prolly makes sense to use this
[20:19] <kgunn> https://code.launchpad.net/~mir-team/mir/released-rebuild-for-vivid-overlay/+merge/269918
[20:20] <kgunn> and then there's one for usc
[20:21] <kgunn> or one would need to be made rather....
[20:23] <kgunn> bregma: ^ this is the unity-api sorting, since it's all just no change rebuilds for mir/usc/qtmir this could be done in one shot
[20:24] <bregma> assuming unity-api is fixed properly
[20:30] <kgunn> bregma: precisely the point of Saviq's landing...."it just might work"tm
[20:32] <bregma> we'll get it straightened out while you're gone


[03:39] <zkriesse> Apparently I missed a meeting eh?
[03:42] <godbyk> zkriesse: Nope, hasn't happened yet.
[03:42] <godbyk> It'll happen at Saturday at 20:00 UTC.
[03:42] <zkriesse> ah
[03:42] <zkriesse> jasono: was asking me if it did is why
[03:43] <jasono> :O
[03:43] <jasono> sorry zkriesse I got the days mixed up.
[03:43] <godbyk> No problem. :)
[03:43] <zkriesse> it's cool
[03:43] <zkriesse> Ok, have to run
[03:43] <jasono> I  was freaking out for no reason then!
[03:43] <godbyk> Better to be a day early than a day late, right?
[03:43] <zkriesse> Trying to put in job apps
[03:43] <jasono> godbyk I guess. Do you know who won the election by any chance? ;)
[03:44] <godbyk> jasono: Election?  For the editor-in-chief and project leader positions?
[03:44] <godbyk> We will be voting on that during the meeting.
[03:44] <jasono> zkriesse Interesting that you leave every time I'm done speaking to you.
[03:44] <jasono> godbyk Yes
[03:44] <zkriesse> Lol sorry bro but it just happens i guess
[03:44] <jasono> godbyk Oh :(
[10:20] <MichealH> Hi all
[10:21] <MichealH> The meeting is at... 8:00 PM UTC?
[11:25] <Infosoft> Hey everyone! Who is responsible for ubuntu-manual.org translations coordination?
[19:56] <hannie> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuManualMeetingMarch2011-2
[19:57] <hannie> Is this url ok?
[19:57] <hannie> Server not found
[19:57] <c7p1> it doesn't work for me
[19:57] <c7p1> http://ietherpad.com/UbuntuManualMeetingMarch2011-2
[19:57] <c7p1> check the above link
[19:57] <popey> works for me
[19:57] <hannie> ok, thanks
[19:59] <c7p1> due to technical issues i think we will use the ietherpad link which is accessible to everyone (until now)
[20:00] <hannie> btw, good evening everybody
[20:01] <c7p1> hello all, meeting will start within the next 10 minutes
[20:02] <hannie> In the meantime I'll read info Fosburgh
[20:02] <godbyk> We'll be starting the meeting in just a few minutes.
[20:02] <godbyk> (We like to give a few minutes for the stragglers to arrive.)
[20:03] <daker> o/
[20:03] <godbyk> If you'd like, you can read the meeting agenda here: http://ietherpad.com/UbuntuManualMeetingMarch2011-2
[20:03] <godbyk> You can also start looking at the emails and resumes we received from the 'job' applicants here: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/jobs/
[20:03] <godbyk> Hello, daker and hannie.
[20:03] <shrini> hello godbyk
[20:04] <shrini> hello c7p1
[20:04] <daker> hello godbyk c7p1 shrini hannie popey
[20:04] <shrini> happy to see you all after a long time
[20:04] <hannie> daker, hello
[20:06] <popey> hi
[20:06] <MichealH> Sorry I'm a little late o/
[20:06] <MichealH> What have I missed?
[20:06] <godbyk> MichealH: Nothing yet. We'll be starting in just a couple minutes.
[20:06] <MichealH> godbyk, Okies
[20:06] <MichealH> :)
[20:08] <daker> Earth Hour in 30min ツ who's going to turn off the lights ?
[20:08] <godbyk> daker: Well, it's the middle of the afternoon here, so it wouldn't help much. :)
[20:08] <MichealH> I hopefull will If my sister lets me  :P
[20:09] <hannie> Tonight we loose one hour here (summertime)
[20:09] <c7p1> let the computer screen light your room !
[20:09] <beginer> shrini ya just got me
[20:09] <godbyk> hannie: We started summer time a couple weeks ago.
[20:09] <daker> godbyk, shutdown your servers :D
[20:09] <MichealH> Oh yeah, its BST for me tommorow
[20:09] <godbyk> daker: Never! ;-)
[20:10] <godbyk> Okay, I think we can get started now.
[20:10] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[20:10] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:10. The chair is godbyk.
[20:10] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:10] <godbyk> Hello, MootBot, my old friend.
[20:10] <MichealH> Hi o/
[20:10] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Discuss turning the 'project leader' role into a marketing and recuiting team role.
[20:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss turning the 'project leader' role into a marketing and recuiting team role.
[20:11] <c7p1> before all agenda http://ietherpad.com/UbuntuManualMeetingMarch2011-2
[20:11] <godbyk> Ah, yes. Thanks, c7p1.
[20:11] <godbyk> We had to move the agenda page because the previous pad server went offline.
[20:12] <godbyk> We had two people apply for the project leader role and four apply for the editor in chief role.
[20:12] <godbyk> Since there were only two applicants for the project leader role, we were considering just having both of them join forces and form a marketing/recruiting/etc. team.
[20:12] <MichealH> godbyk, Its okay, as long as we have the Etherpad :)
[20:13] <godbyk> But I wanted to get your thoughts on that first.  I'd like to hear from the applicants on this, too.
[20:13] <godbyk> Any thoughts?
[20:13] <beginer> nope
[20:13] <MichealH> godbyk, As I have worked with Jason, and have been asked to do so by my UBT Master, i think it would be great
[20:13] <Teotw> although not applying for the project leader role, I think it's a good idea
[20:13] <popey> I'd be interested in seeing what work both jason and michael have completed for the ubuntu project
[20:14] <popey> i.e. not stuff that's been started, but _completed_
[20:14] <MichealH> Unfortunalty It seems Jason is not here... :(
[20:14] <godbyk> While we discuss this, everyone is welcome to read the emails and resumes submitted by the applicants: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/jobs/
[20:15] <hannie> I'm busy reading them now
[20:15] <godbyk> Okay, I'll ask a slightly more pointed question then: Is anyone *against* the idea of turning the 'project leader' role into a marketing/recruitment/etc. team?
[20:15] <MichealH> I would not mind :P
[20:16] <c7p1> to candidates: if you could add you name next to your nickname in the pad/agenda, that would be very helpful for everyone
[20:16] <hannie> can you explain a bit more about that?
[20:16] <MichealH> As my UBT Master has indeed taught me the art of 'kidnapping' people and other important stuff, I can do some of that already
[20:17] <shrini> what will be the roles and duties?
[20:17] <MichealH> c7p1, Where shall I put it?
[20:17] <godbyk> The roles we posted are shown here: http://ubuntu-manual.org/jobs
[20:17] <MichealH> I have my Nick next to my name in the pad names list
[20:17] <c7p1> MichealH: http://ietherpad.com/UbuntuManualMeetingMarch2011-2
[20:17] <MichealH> c7p1, I mean, where in the document?
[20:18] <beginer> hey jasono ? is that you>?
[20:18] <godbyk> The project leader's primary responsibilities are to promote the project and help recruit new members.
[20:18] <MichealH> Hi Jason :D
[20:18] <jasono> Hi beginer Yes it is, sorry I'm late.
[20:18] <jasono> Hey MichealH
[20:18] <godbyk> jasono: No problem.
[20:18] <MichealH> godbyk, As I said, my UBT Master has helped me perfect that art :)
[20:19] <godbyk> jasono: We were just discussing the idea of turning the 'project leader' role into a marketing/recruitment team for both you and MichealH.  Do you have any objections?
[20:19] <beginer> jasono just chill
[20:20] <jasono> godbyk I have no problem with that. Care to explain more?
[20:20] <MichealH> jasono, I would love us both to work on UM together
[20:20] <jasono> beginer Sure.
[20:20] <jasono> MichealH I'm willing.
[20:20] <godbyk> jasono: Sure. You and MichealH were the only two applicants for that role.  Instead of electing just one of you, we thought we might coerce the two of you into working together.
[20:21]  * popey wonders if his question will get addressed.
[20:21] <godbyk> So effectively, jasono and MichealH would be sharing the role and working together.
[20:21] <MichealH> Im perfectly willing :)
[20:22] <MichealH> (as long as Jason is)
[20:22]  * shrini claps
[20:22] <godbyk> popey: You might re-ask it since jasono is here now.
[20:22] <popey> 20:13:59 < popey> I'd be interested in seeing what work both jason and michael have completed for the ubuntu project
[20:22] <popey> 20:14:06 < popey> i.e. not stuff that's been started, but _completed_
[20:22] <jasono>  MichealH of course.
[20:22] <beginer> lol
[20:22] <c7p1> in other words you will both work both in a team that has as it's main goal to promote the project, attract new members
[20:23] <MichealH> c7p1, Yeah, I understood :)
[20:23] <c7p1> that's what we called "marketing team" on previous meeting, at least that was the idea
[20:24] <jasono> popey I honestly have no completed work.
[20:24] <popey> thanks jasono
[20:25] <MichealH> Me and Jason were going to start a IRC Bot, but as SpeechControl was pushed upstream and so was the SII, we could not start it as
[20:25] <MichealH> Alot of work was put int o start work, though
[20:25] <MichealH> s/int o/into
[20:25] <MichealH> and also, we had thought again about the IRCBot
[20:26] <MichealH> Leaving our work ready to start, but not completed.
[20:26] <c7p1> so i guess we are done with this topic, if so we should move on
[20:26] <shrini> what will that bot do?
[20:26] <c7p1> is there anything else ?
[20:26] <shrini> ok
[20:26] <shrini> we can move on
[20:26] <MichealH> shrini, It was going to help people with Hearing and Sight problems
[20:26] <shrini> awesome
[20:26] <MichealH> It was gonna help them IRC :)
[20:27] <jasono> I'm also helping out with BrowserSpeak https://launchpad.net/browserspeak/
[20:27] <MichealH> c7p1, Totally doe here :)
[20:27] <MichealH> *done
[20:27] <godbyk> Okay, it sounds like both MichealH and jasono are willing to work together as a marketing and recruitment team.
[20:27] <MichealH> godbyk, Indeed we are
[20:27] <jasono> A little similar to the one MichealH and I are doing, but it's a Chrom(ium)e extension.
[20:28] <godbyk> [ACTION] MichaelH and jasono will work together on a newly formed marketing/recruitment team to promote the Ubuntu Manual Project and help recruit new team members.
[20:28] <MootBot> ACTION received:  MichaelH and jasono will work together on a newly formed marketing/recruitment team to promote the Ubuntu Manual Project and help recruit new team members.
[20:28]  * jasono Awesome.
[20:28] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Editor in chief
[20:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Editor in chief
[20:28] <godbyk> Next up, we'll take a look at the editor in chief applicants.
[20:28] <godbyk> You can view the emails and resumes from those applicants here: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/jobs/
[20:29] <godbyk> If any of the editor applicants are present and would like to talk about their background and how they'd like to contribute to the project, feel free.
[20:30] <godbyk> We'll take a few minutes to chat with any present applicants and review the emails.
[20:30] <Teotw> Shall I go first, or does anyone else want to?
[20:30] <rickfosb> Sure My name is Rick Fosburgh.  I'm a Senior Specialist with AT&T responsible for Service Metric and Capacity results.   I have led efforts to design and implement software, primarily in C and CSQL.  I've also led the team responsible for documentation of those software development projects.
[20:31] <rickfosb> Teotw Sorry..  I hit send about the time I saw your remark.
[20:31] <Teotw> Hey no problem
[20:31] <rickfosb> Until recently, I've been an avid Ubuntu user.  Rather than spending time in development, I  felt a role in editing the Ubuntu Manual would be a good fit.  However, I look forward to working with this team in any capacity you see fit.
[20:31] <rickfosb> Thanks! for the opportunity.
[20:31] <godbyk> Thanks, rickfosb!
[20:31] <godbyk> Teotw: Feel free to jump in.
[20:31] <shrini> Thanks for the interest guys
[20:33] <Teotw> Ok then, my name is Daniel Duncan. I have a grade A in both English & English literature. I have also 100% in Design and Technology GCSE. Those are my only achievements (in this general area) but then again I'm only 17.
[20:33] <shrini> :-)
[20:34] <Teotw> I have been in an avid Ubuntu user for several years now, and have only helped a little in the Ubuntu community
[20:34] <Teotw> which is the main reason I wish to have this role, as I have a strong desire to give something back.
[20:35] <Teotw> (Next applicant can go!)
[20:35] <c7p1> thanks Teotw
[20:35] <godbyk> Are there any other editor in chief applicants here?
[20:36] <godbyk> Anyone present should feel free to ask questions of the applicants.
[20:37] <MichealH> Teotw, As Editor in Cheif, what will you do to make sure all manuals are "ship-shape" as I could put it before release?
[20:37] <MichealH> Would you test them personally? Or would you dedicate a team for testing?
[20:38] <Teotw> Well, even though it is potentially long winded, one thing would be to go through the manual as a new user to Ubuntu, testing them out on my guinea-pig laptop
[20:38] <Teotw> and from there check factual accuracy, how readable it is, spelling, as well.
[20:39] <MichealH> You would give it some sort of quality mark for each section?
[20:39] <MichealH> So the more questions a new user could ask, the less of a quality mark it would get?
[20:39] <Teotw> Yes,
[20:39] <Teotw> A quality mark, and comments.
[20:40] <godbyk> For both rickfosb and Teotw: It takes a number of months (and a lot of hours) to complete an edition of the manual.  Do you foresee any problems with being able to dedicate the time required (especially over the long term)?
[20:40] <Teotw> I see no reason not to be able to dedicate the time required (unless there's a coffee shortage!)
[20:40] <MichealH> Teotw, hehe ;)
[20:40] <Teotw> ;P
[20:41] <shrini> how will you manage translations?
[20:41] <hannie> Is the job not more about delegating others?
[20:41] <rickfosb> godbyk I do have a day job.  But this is the type of work that adds 'spice' to your life.  I'll put in the hours. :)
[20:41] <godbyk> Please note that we don't provide coffee. :-)
[20:41] <Teotw> godbyk: Lmao
[20:41] <MichealH> godbyk, heh, You provide your own coffee :P
[20:41] <Teotw> shrini, hannie: Are the questions directed at both of us?
[20:42] <shrini> yes
[20:42] <hannie> in general
[20:42] <rickfosb> I find that extra eye are always good to have on documentation.  However, prior to a release, the ultimate responsibility should fall to the EIC.  I would expect that I'd spend those final hours review the work of the team and checking the work.
[20:42] <hannie> You must let others do the work!
[20:42] <MichealH> Teotw, How would you communicate with the Leaders, at what times would you come to us to ask us a favour?
[20:42] <godbyk> hannie: A lot of delegation is involved, yes.  But we definitely want someone who will stick around throughout the entire release cycle.
[20:42] <Teotw> shrini: translations will be managed by finding and delegating people for translations.
[20:43] <hannie> godbyk, yes, but it takes special skills to delegate
[20:43] <rickfosb> shrini I'm new to this part of the process, however,  I would expect to work closely with those team members to ensure that the output document shares the same look and feel of the original.
[20:43] <Teotw> MichaelH: IRC, skype, email, msn and from 7:00pm to 11:00 pm weekdays, and probably not the weekend
[20:43] <shrini> great
[20:44] <shrini> look and feel is same as we use latex
[20:44] <shrini> for typesetting
[20:44] <c7p1> please give some time to candidates to answer :)
[20:45] <MichealH> Teotw, That in UTC?
[20:45] <Teotw> yes, sorry, probably should have mentioned that!
[20:45] <MichealH> Okay, I am on UTC :)
[20:45] <MichealH> Not too sure about jasono, though
[20:46] <Teotw> For any other timezones, I might make a delay to emails, or something
[20:46] <c7p1> i would like to ask both applicants if they will work for the project despite of not being electing as Editor in Chief
[20:46] <c7p1> elected*
[20:47] <Teotw> I don't mind what I do, though my preference is definitely Editor in Chief
[20:47] <jasono> MichealH: UTC-4:00
[20:47] <rickfosb> Per my opening, I'll continue to work with the team.  And am looking forward to this.  :-)
[20:48] <MichealH> jasono, Wanna ask any quesions to the EIC candidates?
[20:48] <jasono> MchealH Sure.
[20:49] <MichealH> rickfosb, Again, If you ever needed to contact me or Jason, how and when would you do it?
[20:49] <MichealH> How often would you ask us something, or suggest something that will be benificial to your team?
[20:50] <jasono> Teotw How much time are you willing to spend too be EIC?-What will you do to make sure everything is well and up to date?
[20:50] <rickfosb> It would depend on time sensitivity.  Email is at your discretion.  I do have access to skype, etc. as well as a 'generous' phone allowance  :)    I intend to minimize impact to your life while getting the job done.
[20:51] <Teotw> jasono: I would willing to be EIC as long as you would like me too - I would spend as much time as possible (I can't say how many hours per day, my guess is a few),
[20:51] <godbyk> We'll start voting in about five minutes to give everyone time to get their questions answered and to finish reading the applications.
[20:51] <rickfosb> My current responsibilities allow me to work various hours, at my discretion.  This gives me the opportunity to keep up to date with your progress, etc.
[20:52] <godbyk> Teotw and rickfosb: Do you have any questions for us about the editor in chief role or any of its duties?
[20:52] <Teotw> I don't think so
[20:53] <rickfosb> Sure:  How many folks have been involved in the actual manual in the past?  How many 'writers' should we expect to be involved this time?
[20:53] <hannie> Teotw, rickfosb have you given translating the Manual a thought?
[20:54] <godbyk> rickfosb: In the past, we had assigned one or more authors to each chapter, and one editor to each chapter.  Usually the chapter editors covered multiple chapters.
[20:55] <Teotw> hannie: no, sorry - do you mean getting people to translate it? I know a few people who *might* be interested - though that's a big might
[20:55] <rickfosb> I have some 'limited' Spanish skills. So, I've only thought about how to use vi and text editors to manipulate provided translations.
[20:55] <Teotw> (that's into Spanish, by the way)
[20:55] <godbyk> rickfosb: The number of authors is hard to determine as anyone can commit code, but I'd guess that we had less than a dozen primary authors.
[20:56] <rickfosb> godbyk; thanks.
[20:56] <Teotw> I have, by the way, limited French skills (B GCSE) and um, well, I'm currently learning Ancient Greek
[20:56] <Teotw> Though that's probably not helpful!
[20:56] <godbyk> rickfosb: When it comes to translators, the number varies wildly from language to language.  Some of the languages had a dozen or more translators, while others only had two or three.
[20:58] <rickfosb> I saw some work come in this week.  I expect that merging those documents 'might' be a challenge, but again, with latex as your guide,  seems doable.
[20:58] <hannie> Teotw, I meant getting translation teams involved
[20:58] <c7p1> Teotw: i don't think there are many who will read the manual in Ancient Greek :P
[20:58] <Teotw> c7p1: Well, you never know :P
[20:59] <c7p1> regarding the translations EiC hasn't any responsibility on them, right godbyk ?
[21:00] <Teotw> hannie: Ah! I see!
[21:00] <Teotw> hannie: shall I re-answer?
[21:00] <hannie> maybe it is not one of the tasks for the eic
[21:00] <godbyk> c7p1: Not directly.  We have a translation editor who is in change of managing each translated edition.  The translation editors are basically equivalent to the editor in chief of the primary English edition.
[21:01] <c7p1> thanks for making it clear :)
[21:02] <godbyk> Okay, so let me explain how to vote.  [This ought to be entertaining.]
[21:02] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Elect an editor in chief
[21:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Elect an editor in chief
[21:03] <godbyk> We have four applicants: Fosburgh (rickfosb), Humnabadkar, Burgos, and Duncan (Teotw).
[21:04] <godbyk> We'll be voting using the instant-runoff method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting).
[21:04] <godbyk> Anyone can vote.
[21:04] <hannie> Can we vote when only two of the applicants are present?
[21:04] <godbyk> To vote, you'll need to rearrange the four names in the order of preference, most preferred applicant's name first.
[21:05] <godbyk> hannie: Yes.  They're not required to attend, though we did invite everyone.
[21:05] <MichealH> godbyk, Cant we just [VOTE] and count the +1's?
[21:05] <MichealH> :P
[21:06] <godbyk> MichealH: We considered that, but this method avoids ties and revotes.
[21:06] <MichealH> Okies
[21:06] <MichealH> I will look up xP
[21:06] <godbyk> For example, if you preferred ApplicantB over ApplicantA, you'd say: godbyk: ApplicantB ApplicantA.
[21:07] <godbyk> Any questions on the voting procedure?
[21:07] <jasono> No.
[21:07] <MichealH> godbyk, Out of the people attended today:  Teotw, rickfosb
[21:08] <godbyk> MichealH: You can vote for all four applicants (not just Teotw and rickfosb).
[21:08] <MichealH> I see that Teotw would work alot, so would rickfosb
[21:08] <godbyk> List all four applicant's names in order of preference.
[21:08] <hannie> You want us to put the four names in order of preference?
[21:08] <godbyk> hannie: Yes.
[21:10] <godbyk> When you've figured out your preferences, let me know and I will keep a tally.
[21:10] <godbyk> We will close the voting in 10 minutes (at 21:20 UTC).
[21:10] <godbyk> If you have any questions, please let me know.
[21:11] <hannie> It's not a secret vote, is it?
[21:11] <godbyk> hannie: Good question.
[21:12] <MichealH> I have made my vote
[21:12] <godbyk> Do we want all votes to be public or should we allow anonymous votes?
[21:12] <MichealH> godbyk, Private ones if they want :)
[21:12] <godbyk> Okay. You can either vote publicly in this channel or message me privately with your votes.
[21:12] <c7p1> that's good
[21:12] <godbyk> I'll report all the votes in this channel (but remove the voters' names from the privately cast votes).
[21:14] <godbyk> Vote received: Fosburgh Burgos Duncan Humnabadkar
[21:15] <godbyk> Vote received: Fosburgh Duncan Burgos Humnabadkar
[21:15] <shrini> Duncan Fosburgh Humnabadkar Burgos
[21:16] <godbyk> Vote received: Fosburgh Duncan Burgos Humnabadkar
[21:16] <shrini> godbyk: Duncan Fosburgh Humnabadkar Burgos
[21:17]  * godbyk opens a spreadsheet before this gets too insane. :-)
[21:17] <hannie> Where is your secretary?
[21:18] <MichealH> godbyk, Duncan Fosburgh Burgos Humnabadkar
[21:18] <godbyk> hannie: If only I had one! :-)
[21:19] <godbyk> Vote received: Duncan Fosburgh Burgos Humnabadkar
[21:20] <godbyk> So far I've received votes from: godbyk, c7p1, hannie, jasono, rickfosb, shrini, MichealH.
[21:20] <MichealH> godbyk, Nice script you have there :P
[21:20] <godbyk> Anyone else have any last-minute votes?
[21:21] <MichealH> godbyk, Can you tell us the results so far?
[21:21] <MichealH> I expect it will be close...
[21:21] <godbyk> Sure. One sec.
[21:22] <godbyk> Okay, our ten minutes are up.
[21:22] <godbyk> Let me tally up the results here.
[21:22] <hannie> Before the EiC is elected I want to say thanks to all the candidates
[21:22]  * MichealH seconds that
[21:22] <Teotw> Thanks to all you too
[21:23] <godbyk> Okay, I've got the totals.
[21:23] <MichealH> godbyk, Last Place first!
[21:23] <MichealH> Last place was:
[21:23] <godbyk> We had seven voters.
[21:23] <hannie> suspense
[21:23] <godbyk> Here are the totals for each candidate:
[21:23] <MichealH> godbyk, Last place to first place?
[21:24] <godbyk> Fosburgh: first: 4, second: 3, third: 0, fourth: 0
[21:24] <godbyk> Humnabadkar: first: 0, second: 0, third: 1, fourth: 6
[21:24] <godbyk> Burgos: first: 0, second: 1, third: 5, fourth: 1
[21:25] <godbyk> Duncan: first: 3, second: 3: third: 1, fourth: 0.
[21:25] <MichealH> SO CLOSE :P
[21:25] <godbyk> A majority of votes would be 4 or more.
[21:25]  * shrini whistles
[21:25] <hannie> pffff
[21:25] <godbyk> With 4 first-preference votes, Fosburgh has been elected as editor in chief.
[21:25] <Teotw> Grats, Fosburgh
[21:25]  * shrini claps and whistles
[21:25] <rickfosb> Thank you all!
[21:25] <MichealH> Congrats, rickfosb
[21:26] <shrini> wishes  rickfosb
[21:26] <godbyk> So congratulations, rickfosb.
[21:26] <hannie> rickfosb, congrats!
[21:26] <godbyk> And huge thanks to all of our applicants.
[21:26] <c7p1> Congrats all !
[21:26] <Teotw> Thanks
[21:26] <godbyk> While you didn't win the election, we'd love for you to join our team.
[21:26] <Teotw> Me?
[21:26] <c7p1> of course
[21:27] <Teotw> What would I do?
[21:27] <rickfosb> I'll look forward to your help Teotw!
[21:27] <hannie> standby
[21:27] <godbyk> To all of our candidates, you're welcome to join our team and help out.
[21:27]  * jasono :s
[21:28] <godbyk> Teotw: Don't worry -- there's never a shortage of work to be done!
[21:28] <hannie> what luxury!
[21:28] <Teotw> Don't suppose I could be told why I didn't get voted for?
[21:28] <Teotw> lol
[21:29] <godbyk> I will add the votes to the minutes.
[21:29] <c7p1> thanks all for coming and voting
[21:29] <hannie> you're welcome
[21:29] <godbyk> c7p1: Since our meeting has run so long, should we address the maverick release in our next meeting or do you want to go ahead and do it now?
[21:30] <MichealH> Lets do it now :P
[21:30] <rickfosb> Agree.
[21:30] <godbyk> Okay.  I'll let c7p1 handle that then (being as he wrote the agenda and all). :-)
[21:30] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Maverick release
[21:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick release
[21:31] <hannie> It's close to midnight here in Europe, but I don't mind
[21:31] <godbyk> c7p1: It'll let you lead this topic.
[21:32] <godbyk> c7p1: Still around?
[21:32] <c7p1> actually there is nothing from me to tell about the Maverick
[21:32] <godbyk> Ah, okay.
[21:32] <c7p1> i mean it was supposed to be an update for screenshots that's all the maverick update essentially
[21:32] <hannie> Natty will be released shortly
[21:33] <c7p1> yes we  should start talking about Natty
[21:33] <shrini> I hope natty manual will require more work as it has unity
[21:34] <godbyk> Would you like to discuss Natty a bit now or wait until our next meeting?
[21:34] <MichealH> godbyk, Now, April is just arount the corner
[21:34] <godbyk> shrini: Natty will definitely require a lot more work as we can't just make a few small changes.
[21:34] <MichealH> *around
[21:34] <hannie> I was wondering if the manual can be put chapter by finished chapter on Launchpad
[21:34] <shrini> let us finish discussion about maverick now
[21:34] <godbyk> MichealH: True, but we've also kept everyone here for 1.5 hours already and some of them are in time zones where it's quite late.
[21:35] <godbyk> Okay, so on the Maverick front, I think that we still need to take the updated screenshots.
[21:35] <hannie> godbyk, it is never too early
[21:35] <godbyk> I *think* that the screenshots list is the same as it was for Lucid, but we'll need to double-check that.
[21:35] <c7p1> maybe natty planning should be next meeting's goal
[21:35] <MichealH> I can kidnap a handy doc guy :P
[21:36] <godbyk> To take the screenshots, we need to grab the latest version of Quickshot, figure out how to use it, and make sure it's working okay.
[21:36]  * c7p1 sorry for slow responses
[21:36] <MichealH> c7p1, Its okay
[21:38] <shrini> is there any other pending task for maverick?
[21:39] <godbyk> shrini: I think screenshots are the primary one.
[21:39] <godbyk> shrini: Other pending tasks would be to continue to pore over it for errors.
[21:40] <c7p1> there is nobody here knowing for screenshots, i think jenkings was supposed to give us more info but i'm not at all sure
[21:40] <shrini> godbyk: reading about quickshot
[21:41] <shrini> godbyk: will try to do that task of capturing screenshots
[21:41] <godbyk> shrini: Thanks.
[21:41] <shrini> can anyone guide me on what to do after this meeting?
[21:41] <Teotw> ditto!
[21:42] <godbyk> shrini: If you want to look at Quickshot, that'd be helpful. Download the latest version, see if it works, and then write some instructions on how to use it.
[21:42] <shrini> sure
[21:42] <godbyk> Has anyone been using Natty yet?
[21:42] <Teotw> I tested it the other day
[21:43] <godbyk> We need to make a list of changes between Maverick and Natty.  What parts of the manual need to be updated? What parts need to be replaced entirely (Unity)? Etc.
[21:43] <rickfosb> Just an initial glance.  I haven't spent any real time as yet.
[21:44] <rickfosb> Sounds like section 2?  I didn't see any differences during installation.  anyone?
[21:45] <hannie> You could open a wiki page for that
[21:46] <godbyk> I'll add a discussion of Natty changes to our next meeting's agenda.
[21:47] <godbyk> If anyone would like to install Natty and poke around and start a list of changes, that'd be great.
[21:47] <Teotw> I don't mind doing that
[21:47] <godbyk> You can create a wiki page for it under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/.
[21:47] <hannie> And post changes on the mailing list?
[21:47] <c7p1> for natty changes you could also use this http://ietherpad.com/NattyChanges
[21:47] <hannie> ok
[21:47] <godbyk> You're welcome to use the mailing list to discuss changes, too, yes.
[21:48] <Teotw> kk
[21:48] <godbyk> c7p1: I'm starting to be a little more wary of pads since it seems they are offline a lot. :)
[21:48] <c7p1> godbyk: you are right
[21:48] <c7p1> maybe a google doc ?
[21:48] <godbyk> rickfosb: I'll send you an email soon to fill you in on some of the fun things we have planned for you. <evil grin>
[21:49] <rickfosb> godbyk; thanks
[21:49] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[21:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[21:50] <godbyk> I think it's getting a bit late for some folks, and I don't want to keep you any longer.
[21:50] <godbyk> Is there any other business that needs to be discussed?
[21:50] <hannie> So, when is the next meeting?
[21:50] <godbyk> We've been trying to schedule meetings every couple weeks.
[21:50] <godbyk> The frequency of the meetings can be adjusted as needed, of course.
[21:51] <shrini> godbyk: installed quickshot
[21:51] <shrini> will test it and mail the team later
[21:51] <shrini> getting very late
[21:51] <shrini> it is 3.30 am for me
[21:51] <shrini> very good morning for all
[21:51] <shrini> :-)
[21:51] <godbyk> Between now and the next meeting, feel free to use this IRC channel and our mailing list to stay in touch, ask any questions, continue discussions, etc.
[21:52] <c7p1> for me there is nothing more
[21:52] <hannie> ok, bedtime for me too
[21:52] <shrini> wishes for the new leads
[21:52] <hannie> see you all nest time, guys
[21:52] <shrini> thanks for all participants
[21:52] <godbyk> Thanks everyone for coming.
[21:52] <godbyk> And thanks especially to all of our applicants!
[21:52] <hannie> *next
[21:52] <Teotw> :)
[21:52] <c7p1> Thank you all for coming
[21:52] <rickfosb> :)
[21:52] <c7p1> next meeting in two weeks or next week ?
[21:52] <komsas> I'm happy to see that ubuntu manual community begin to live again. Good luck and don't stop :)
[21:52] <godbyk> We'll post the minutes to the mailing list soon.
[21:53] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[21:53] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:53.
[21:54] <shrini> godbyk: did you work with quickshot?
[21:54] <shrini> how to create user for that
[21:54] <shrini> ?
[21:54] <godbyk> shrini: I didn't write it. And I haven't used the new version yet.
[21:54] <shrini> ok
[21:55] <godbyk> shrini: You might contact the Quickshot folks.  they've been really busy lately.  But let them know that you're going to be writing instructions on how to use it and may need some help getting started.  https://launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs
[21:56] <shrini> sure
[21:58] <MichealH> I need to go now :)
[21:58] <shrini> godbyk: bye
[21:58] <godbyk> Okay.  Thanks for coming, MichealH.
[21:58] <MichealH> Byez! :P
[21:58] <shrini> thanks for all folks
[21:58] <godbyk> Goodbye, shrini. Thanks for your help.
[21:58] <shrini> thanks godbyk
[22:00] <rickfosb> Thanks again to all.  Going to move on to another weekend task. :)
[22:01] <godbyk> rickfosb: Thanks for coming, rickfosb.  And congratulations on your new role.
[22:01] <godbyk> (You may regret it sooner than you think. ;-))
[22:01] <rickfosb> ha!  oh wait!  is that the ground?????  Better run...
[22:01] <rickfosb> :))
[22:02] <c7p1> rickfosb, jasono, MichealH whatever you want i'm willing to help and also to help you understand the projects situation etc
[22:03] <jasono> c7p1 Thanks.
[22:03] <rickfosb> c7p1 Thanks.
[22:16] <komsas> godbyk, do you know shrini email or any other contact, I wanted to give him email log with Neil, when I did all screenshots. It could help him a lot.
[22:16] <godbyk> komsas: Let me see if I can find it real quick.
[22:17] <godbyk> Found it.
[22:19] <komsas> thanks, by the way, infosoft said that you'll help me with one little problem in the latex world. I hope you could find for me time till next sunday?
[22:22] <godbyk> komsas: Yeah, it sounds like the small-caps font may not have all the letters you need.
[22:22] <godbyk> komsas: Which edition are you working on?
[22:23] <komsas> second
[22:23] <komsas> there is all my sources https://github.com/komsas/Ubuntu-manual-lucid-2
[22:24] <godbyk> komsas: Okay. I may have to create a small file for you that you can drop in to change the formatting of the running heads.
[22:24] <godbyk> If the small-caps font doesn't have all the letters you need, we can just use regular uppercase and lowercase letters.
[22:25] <komsas> sounds good
[22:27] <godbyk> komsas: Actually, if you give me your email address, I can send this file to you right now.
[22:27] <godbyk> Then you can test it out sometime and let me know how it looks.
[22:27] <komsas> godbyk<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:28] <godbyk> komsas: Okay, sent.
[22:29] <komsas> thanks you, I'm going to tray
[22:29] <komsas> try *
[22:30] <godbyk> Hopefully I didn't screw up the file. :-)
[22:30] <godbyk> There are some other options in that file that we may want to set, too, but we can do those a bit later if we need to.
[22:39] <komsas> godbyk, it worked only in the first running head "į" changed to „Įvadas“, other left same.
[22:39] <godbyk> Hmm..
[22:41] <godbyk> So the running head on the left-hand page and right-hand page are formatted differently?  (One is still in small-caps and the other is now correct [using uppercase and lowercase]?)
[22:44] <komsas> in the left all letters are latin (without Lithuanian letters), so mainly only right have problems. So for now only first right have correct, it is in lowercase with first latter capitalized.
[22:45] <godbyk> I haven't updated my copy of the Lithuanian translation for quite a while, but it didn't compile cleanly.  It did however, show "Ubuntu 10.04 pradedančiųjų vadovas" on the left-hand page and "Įvadas" on the right-hand page.
[22:45] <komsas> try my branch
[22:45] <komsas> it is fresh and new
[22:45] <godbyk> Okay
[22:46] <komsas> I did some changes there, like to show better screenshots and other.. there is all commits so you can see
[22:47] <godbyk> What do I run to build it?
[22:47] <komsas> make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf
[22:48] <komsas> there is sometimes problems with glossary or index, then I run this commands manually
[22:49] <godbyk> Ah, I see what's happening.
[22:49] <godbyk> The formatting change is only in effect for the front matter (the copyright page, table of contents, introduction), but not the main matter (chapter 1 onward).
[22:50] <godbyk> I wonder if it's that way in the original lucid-e2 code..
[22:50] <godbyk> At any rate, I can fix that.  One moment.
[22:51] <godbyk> I'll just fork it real quick. Probably easier for you to see the changes then.
[22:51] <komsas> yee.. I wanted to say that to fork is best solutions
[22:51] <komsas> I'm going to see
[22:53] <komsas> oh I read that you did that.. ;))
[22:55] <komsas> so I'm going to sleep it is late here, thank you godbyk for help, tomorrow I'll check your commits
[22:55] <c7p1> night komsas


[01:12] <igms> just a question is there anybody know how can i join Ubuntu Beginners Team in launchpad
[01:12] <ddecator> is it moderated?
[01:12] <ddecator> oh, restricted
[01:13] <igms> yeas
[01:13] <ddecator> igms: you'd have to work towards membership :)
[01:13] <igms> i didn't get that
[01:14] <igms> i do some work and they put me the team ? ( sorry about my english )
[01:16] <ddecator> igms: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
[07:49] <r4y> hello
[07:50] <r4y> what's the difference between this command and this one?:"sudo shutdown -rF now", "sudo touch /forcefsck"
[07:51] <r4y> and if the filesystem is force checked on every boot what command would set it back to default?
[07:51] <r4y> I am not having any trouble
[07:51] <r4y> I am just asking questions for future referencing, I have a text file for it
[09:44] <AJH101> Different people have different favourite vack up tools. Has anyone got any valid reasons for choosing one over the other?
[09:49] <nlsthzn> Preference... personal choice... Having specific needs...
[10:03] <AJH101> Anyone know if Deja Dupe is any better or worse than other backup progs?
[10:05] <r4y> hello
[10:06] <r4y> I can't get recordmydesktop to work
[10:06] <r4y> improper window specification error 2816
[10:08] <r4y> http://paste.ubuntu.com/579681/
[11:35] <r4y> How do I apply this patch?:
[11:35] <r4y> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/63917593/gtk-recordmydesktop_select_window.patch
[12:47] <Silver_Fox_> Hello
[13:14] <ceroberos> hello guys
[15:10] <s-fox> =)
[17:13] <nev> hi all
[17:13] <nev> i am trying to update a flash plugin for chromium (ubuntu 10.10).
[17:13] <nev> have downloaded official "install_flash_player_10_linux.tar.gz" which contains only "libflashplayer.so"i guess i need to use terminal to replace or update the old file. so how do i do this
[17:14] <nev> sorry :(
[17:16] <Abhijit> nev, sorry for what?
[17:17] <nev> pasting and overloading
[17:17] <holstein> chrome should just play flash right?
[17:18] <Abhijit> nev, in places -> search for files -> type *.so and search in File systema and there you will get the location and replace that file with your new file. but this may break your flash. but you can try this
[17:19] <Abhijit> holstein, no
[17:19] <nev> holstein: yep, usually does but after an ubuntu update  the plugin is now out of date
[17:19] <holstein> nev: try just updating
[17:19] <holstein> and using the packages in the repos
[17:25] <nev> ok found location of file, how do i replace it?
[17:25] <Abhijit> :-/
[17:26] <holstein> nev: there should be a readme in the download
[17:26] <Abhijit> sudo cp file1 file2
[17:26] <holstein> i would check it out though
[17:26] <nev> holstein: no readme just .so
[17:26] <holstein> i cant imagine it being out of date compared to the one in the repos
[17:26] <holstein> at least not for very long
[17:28] <holstein> nev: whats the problem with flash?
[17:45] <nev> halfwaay there, with sudo cp file1 file 2, just got to extract it to somewhere i can find it. cheers for the help guys, dinners ready!!


[14:25] <thorwil> kwwii: what's up with the ubuntu logo SVGs as linked from the wiki? the letters are full of unnecessary nodes. looks like bad automated tracing. at least i would hope no person would ever do it this way
[14:27] <_MMA_> thorwil: Personally I just use the circle of friends image and then use the font for text.
[14:28] <thorwil> _MMA_: the ubuntu title font as packaged for hardy doesn't match the official logo font
[14:29] <_MMA_> Ive just grabbed it from the web. How doesnt it match?
[14:30] <thorwil> _MMA_: the ttf is edgier and runs much narrower
[14:31] <_MMA_> Can you link me to what SVG you're talking about from the wiki?
[14:33] <thorwil> _MMA_: from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
[14:34] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=UbuntuLogo.svg
[14:37] <_MMA_> thorwil: Id just use the font and throw a stroke around it if you're unhappy with the thickness. Im sure the Xubuntu and I know the (old) Ubuntu Studio logos were done with the font. Nobody complained.
[14:41] <thorwil> _MMA_: oh common, take that svg into inkscape, place ubuntu in title font right next to it and try to line it up. i don't think random variations in the ubuntu type are acceptable from a branding and typography point of view
[14:41] <thorwil> but here we are, the damage is done
[14:43] <_MMA_> thorwil: Really. We don't have much of a choice. You could start a thread on the ML to further clean-up/standardize the artwork. Its not uncommon for things like this to go through minor tweaks.
[14:44] <_MMA_> There's even a effort to make the Ubuntu font more complete. http://betatype.com/node/36
[14:54]  * thorwil tries to keep his sanity while editing an S
[14:55] <_MMA_> hahaha
[17:53] <nothlit> i don't know which versions are packaged and are in the logo, but the font itself has been cleaned up lately, the mailing list has mentions of versions with clean paths and even accents etc
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: The redone font set is better by an order of a magnitude.  Sad we still haven't integrated it and gotten the author to sort out the license etc.
[18:02] <thorwil> troy_s: good. an order of magnitude is required ;)
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: And then some.
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Even the free font 'poo platter' is infinitely better.
[18:04] <thorwil> heh
[18:04] <troy_s> thorwil: I would suggest checking out the one done by the fontographer.
[18:04] <troy_s> thorwil: Have you seen poo platter?
[18:05] <thorwil> troy_s: nope. i wasn't sure it exists
[18:05] <troy_s> thorwil: Weird... I can't find it.  Abstract fonts has it in their catalogue.
[18:06] <troy_s> thorwil: Looking.
[18:06] <thorwil> dinner, bbl
[18:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Anyways, here is the redone one: http://betatype.com/node/36
[18:45] <thorwil> troy_s: is there a downlaod link hidden somewhere?
[18:45] <troy_s> thorwil: From that blog page?
[18:46] <thorwil> yes
[18:46] <troy_s> thorwil: It was easily downloadable last time I looked there, but maybe not in that update page.
[18:46] <troy_s> thorwil: It's quite a bit better than the rather hacky title ttf - as you can probably see.
[19:21] <troy_s> thorwil: Does Ardour offer sequencing?
[19:22] <thorwil> troy_s: audio sequencing yes. no midi, allthough that is in the works
[19:22] <troy_s> thorwil: Hrm.  So what would you recommend for simple midi sequencing loops?
[19:23] <thorwil> troy_s: seq24
[19:23] <troy_s> thorwil: Is it relatively easy to use for a novice audience?
[19:24] <thorwil> troy_s: yes and no. it's simple in structure and made for loops. but editing notes is a bit odd
[19:24] <thorwil> troy_s: i don't remember how it works exactly, lets just say that you should try all 3 mouse buttons if you want to draw notes
[19:24] <troy_s> thorwil: How does Rosegarden rate in your opinion?
[19:25] <thorwil> troy_s: i never managed to make it talk to a softsynth
[19:25] <troy_s> (and sorry, I am asking on behalf of someone else.  I am not a music guy.)
[19:25] <thorwil> troy_s: both rosegarden and muse are more complex than seq24 and _not_ made for loops
[19:25] <troy_s> thorwil: Ok that answers that question.
[19:26] <troy_s> thorwil: Thanks a million.
[19:26] <thorwil> troy_s: np
[19:26] <troy_s> thorwil: Erm... one more:  What one works best in the Ardour workflow?
[19:26] <troy_s> (loop or otherwise)
[19:27] <thorwil> troy_s: doesn't matter, i'd say. but i'm only really familiar with muse
[19:28] <thorwil> troy_s: both muse and rosegarden have audio capabilities. which suffice if you don't need precise audio editing or tricky routing
[19:29] <troy_s> thorwil: Thanks again.


[15:40] <cmaloney> morning
[15:53] <Scary_Guy> Good morning
[15:58] <jrwren> what is good today?
[16:20] <cmaloney> https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@beatrix/110944120079289156
[16:46] <jrwren> hahahaha, that is great.
[18:58] <Scary_Guy> lol