[07:24] <leetcharmer> That would be nice :D
[07:24] <jono> other projects include mentoring (trialled with a LoCo pilot), documenting best practice, events and more
[07:24] <jono> leetcharmer, thats a good idea, but further down the line
[07:24] <jono> I don;t think the issue here is an interface issue, it is a process issue
 QUESTION: jono: you're Community Manager only for Ubuntu or general for all *buntu Distros too? (like kubuntu)
[07:25] <mattl> task based documentation is pretty useful. any way a user could make documentation by simply using the program? ie. it records the menu clicks to a file and lets them write some text around what they just did?
[07:25] <jono> emonkey-p, althougn my job title is Ubuntu Community Manager, I am here to help all aspects of the community where I can, and I have worked with Kubuntu, Launchpad, Ubuntu, Edubuntu and various others
 Q: jono: are you working with loco teams? does your are include them? how? 'thnx
[07:26] <jono> nmsa, when I joined, I identified loco teams as a key part of the community
[07:26] <jono> I have spent quite a lot of time working with locos
[07:26] <pepsiman> leetcharmer: ubuntu docs are going to be maintained in the wiki
[07:26] <jono> y'know, its interesting, when I started there were lots of locos, but noone talked to each other
[07:26] <jono> each team was its own little independent unit
[07:27] <jono> I wanted to first get people talking to each other - we are a community and our biggest strength is how we communicate and learn from each other
[07:27] <jono> so I revived loco-contacts and encouraged people to talk to each other
[07:27] <leetcharmer> pepsiman, then I would like to request a program that reads from the wiki and would let you write from an interface, to streamline things easier rather than through web
[07:27] <jono> I also encouraged teams to share their experience, stories and other tips to figure out how to best run the teams
[07:28] <LaserJock> pepsiman: that's not entirely correct, but there is a lot of documentation on the wiki
[07:28] <jono> another issue was the sparse and badly organised documentation, so I tidied up the wiki, added a consistant menu bar, created a knowledge base, encouraged teams to contribute docs and formed regular meetings
[07:28] <jono> finally, I worked to help improve the process of how loco teams are approved
[07:29] <jono> in the ubuntu project there are two types of team - new and approved - approved teams are the equivilent of ubuntu members, but for teams - teams that we know work well
[07:29] <jono> and recently I have been working on some ideas to unify loco resources in launchpad
[07:29] <jono> one of the problems we have with teams right now is that teams are spending too much time messing around with setting up websites, planets and user maps, and not spending their time teambuilding
[07:30] <jono> I want to reduce this resource based time, make things easier to set up, and get teams to concentrate on *making great teams*
[07:30] <jono> y'know, we have loco teams in nearly every single country in the world
[07:30] <Circus-Killer> thats one thing our loco team is strugglinh with
[07:30] <jono> and on the loco mailing lists we have *over* 10,000 subscribers
[07:30] <jono> we have an incredible backbone here, and I am keen to see it get better
[07:30] <tonyyarusso> jono: Does that mean a unified, available framework for things like websites, planets, and maps that teams can just plug stuff into a template for?
[07:30] <jono> Circus-Killer, ping me later and we can discuss it
[07:31] <mattl> jono: how useful is a loco team for a large country? wouldn't a city based or region based loco be better?
[07:31] <jono> tonyyarusso, the idea is that a planet, website, user map etc should just be able to be "flipped on" - with a consistant look and feel - I would like to see people contentrate on "content" and not infrastructure
[07:31] <jono> mattl, this is an issue
[07:32] <jono> for some countries we divide it
[07:32] <jono> for the USA, loco teams are at a state level
[07:32] <mattl> at what point does a Loco be more like a GLUG?
[07:32] <jono> but for some places it is a country level
[07:32] <SimonAnibal> jono, what do you mean by "team building"?
[07:32] <tonyyarusso> jono: But what is being done to make that the case?  Do we have something in place for new locos to click the "turn on" button?
[07:33] <jono> mattl, they have different purposes in many ways - lugs are often places where people (a) meet up (b) get support and (c) talk about a range of issues - locos are primarily advocacy and translations vehicles for the ubuntu community
[07:33] <mattl> do you see a loco as a group of people who go to LUGs and spread the ubuntu love?
[07:33] <jono> SimonAnibal, the real value in a team is how people work together, organise themselves and get stuff done - I want to see more of that and less debate about whether to use drupal or plone :P
[07:34] <mattl> heh.
[07:34] <jono> tonyyarusso, there was a spec at the UDS about this, and some additions to launchpad are being discussed
[07:34] <mattl> phpnuke, surely?
[07:34] <jono> mattl, can you post questions in -caht
[07:34] <jono> -chat
 QUESTION: is there a plan to have something like the gnome foundation that leads the project?
[07:35] <jono> juliux, we do have the ubuntu foundation, but is primarily a fund which would kick in if canonical or mark was to go away
[07:35] <jono> right now there seems little need for foundation in my own view
[07:35] <juliux> jono, i mean from the community side
[07:35] <jono> I think we want to get away from making more and more governance infrastructure and spend more time *doing stuff*
[07:36] <jono> juliux, the community council is the governance infrastructure there
 QUESTION: How do we grow a rocking beard like yours?
[07:36] <jono> Ng, its tough, but it takes down, shampoo and condition every day
 Q: jono: again, sorry, are you working with loco teams? does your area include them? how? 'thnx
[07:36] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: but don't you see a practical application for approved teams to have planets? it seems having a unified point of communication (that maybe isn't IRC) is a useful thing.
[07:36] <jono> I do indeed, I help the UK team
[07:37] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, exactly - I am keen to get more perks for approved teams
[07:37] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: good to hear, can you talk briefly on mailing lists in general and their use?
[07:37] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, we can rely on those teams, and there has been discussion about sending out event kits to them, using them for more formal events, providing these teams with additional help and we also send edgy cds to approved teams
[07:38] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, what do you mean about lists?
 Q: Who decide who leads the LoCo Teams?
[07:38] <jono> gummibaerchen,  it varies - not all teams need leaders
[07:38] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: for example, mailing list being used for support requests, pro/cons of having a mailing list
[07:39] <jono> usually the person who founds the team often leads it, some teams have elections and some have informal methods of voting people in
[07:39] <gummibaerchen> jono: But I mean the leader in Launchpad for example.
[07:39] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, mailing lists are essential for all teams, but I always recommend that with a new team to stick with a single list
[07:39] <gummibaerchen> Who gave them their rights?
[07:39] <Admiral_Chicago> gummibaerchen: for example, Chicago LoCo does not have a leader, we decided we don't need one. we have a main contact (nixternal) but he isn't an established leader
[07:39] <jono> gummibaerchen, eh?
[07:40] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, as an example, when people set up discussion forums, a lot of people add 10 sub-forums
[07:40] <LaserJock> gummibaerchen: when somebody creates a team in Launchpad they are the owner
[07:40] <jono> and there is a temptation for people to split out across lots of lists
[07:40] <popey> wik/win 44
[07:40] <Smiffeh> jono: as community manager what sort of relationship do you have with the marketing team?
[07:40] <popey> eek
[07:40] <popey> sorry
[07:40] <jono> I always recommend that communication is kept to single list or forum - it helps everyone see each other
[07:41] <jono> Smiffeh, I am beginning to work with the marketing team and had a discussion with corey last night about it
[07:41] <jono> I am also developing processes to improve how the canonical marketing team and the community marketing team works together
[07:41] <Smiffeh> and what conclusions are you reaching about the direction they should take?
[07:41] <Admiral_Chicago> ah i see, speaking as a spam killer, i know the mailing lists get spam often, I usually go in once a day and approve / deny the appropriate emails, i see this as a con to having mailing list
[07:41] <Admiral_Chicago> they have a certain level of maintainanc
[07:42] <jono> Smiffeh, I have views on the marketing team - I think we need to use the marketing team as a central to push stuff out of the community  - right now the marketing team does to much inter-ubuntu-community marketing - I would like to see other teams (such as loco teams) feed the marketing team with content and then the expertise of the marketing team can push and promote that information
 QUESTION: What role do you play in the communities of the Ubuntu sister projects like Xubuntu or Kubuntu? Do you have any plans/goals for these projects?
[07:43] <jono> somerville32, I covered this a bit earlier, I am here to help with their community building in the same way I do for ubuntu - my door is always open to people who need help
[07:43] <somerville32> :)
 QUESTION: Don't you think Ubuntu community is somewhat careless? I mean posting bug reports and feature request in many other places like forums instead of Launchpad; grumbling about some lack in Ubuntu on personal blogs, instead of writing clear specification and so on...
[07:44] <jono> fafek2, sure, there is lots of misguided work, but that is not solvable with a quick fix - it relies on good solid examples being set by key community figures, and good processes
[07:44] <jono> I think we can improve things in many areas by developing these processes
[07:44] <jono> let me be 100% clear here with my intentions
[07:44] <jono> I want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action
[07:45] <jono> we have all the right ingredients, we have all the potential, we just need to fix some things to improve our community
[07:45] <jono> this is not about me telling people what to do, but about me coming up with ideas and suggestions that do not disrupt workflow but make things better
[07:45] <fafek2> Maybe Ubuntu Forums moderators could be more determined?
[07:46] <jono> right now, I am going after low-hanging fruit - easy wins that will reap a great return on community productivity
[07:46] <jono> fafek2, thats a seperate issue
 QUESTION: Whats the best way to get in contact with you?
[07:46] <jono> well, I live on IRC during the days (around 8.30am - 6pm UTC) and I can also be gotten in touch at jono AT ubuntu DOT com
[07:47] <jono> I also blog a lot at jonobacon.org
[07:47] <Smiffeh> jono: do you feel marketing should be working to attract a non-technical audience to Ubuntu to try and begin to dispel the "linux is not suitable for the desktop" myth
[07:47] <l> awesome!!
[07:47] <jono> Smiffeh, yes indeed
[07:47] <tsmithe> Smiffeh, arent they already?
[07:48] <bhale> questions in -chat guys
[07:48] <jono> Smiffeh, marketing is a multi-faceted approach - we need to approach different demographics with a consistant message - education, non-techical users, developers, charities - they are all ripe pickings :)
 QUESTION: What mechanisms/oversight do you feel may be needed to avoid people sitting around deciding to be "the peoples front of judea" or " the judean peoples front ", navel gazing in other words.
[07:48] <jono> LoudMouthMan, whingers will always whinge
[07:48] <jono> personally, I am not interested in talking to whingers
[07:48] <Smiffeh> From what i have seen so far they seem to be promoting the distro's activities in channels that appeal more to the technical usership.
[07:49] <jono> I am not interested in providing people with blog fodder
[07:49] <bhale> Smiffeh: if you think other channels need to be targetted you could be the newest member of the marketing team
[07:49] <jono> I am interesting in making our community have a standard of "can do" - I personally can't stand people who do nothing but complain, bemoan and otherwise feedback over things they can actually change
[07:50] <jono> this entire free software landscape is mouldable, changable and has the ability to be bettered in every way
[07:50] <jono> this is why I always try to encourage people to do stuff, then discuss
[07:50] <jono> too many contributors start out by setting up a mailing list, svn server, website and such and then spend six months discussing thing they will ultimately never do
[07:50] <jono> I always say "do it, and then discuss it"
[07:51] <LaserJock> \o/
[07:51] <jono> we need to get into a habit of making stuff happen
[07:51] <jono> gummibaerchen> QUESTION: Is it possible that gives up it's Debian Base?
[07:51] <jono> gummibaerchen,  what does?
[07:51] <MacSlow> jono, pretty good stance there!
[07:51] <jono> ok lots of questions, not enough time
[07:51] <jono> gonna pick and choose what has not been covered
[07:51] <MacSlow> jono, I fully agree with this attitude
 QUESTION: Why not merge the Loco's and LUG's so that a Loco is basically a "department" inside the local LUG?  Just seems like more cross-traffic between the two that way.
[07:52] <jono> I don't think it works that way - the two are incompatible at level - they are different types of groups that should intead work together to achieve common goals
 QUESTION: One issue the marketing team has atm is that Canonical wants to be the only one writing press releases, but isn't doing any for the non-tech community.  Does your interfacing w/Canonical and that team include dealing with things like that?
[07:54] <jono> tonyyarusso, indeed - as part of my Canonical/Community work I am trying to improve relations so we can work together on things like this - I am booking meetings with the business development team at canonical to improve on these issues
 QUESTION:  If you want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action (and it's something I would love to see happen!) - how do we begin to expel proprietary software from Ubuntu so it can live up to that?
[07:54] <tonyyarusso> jono: awesome.  Looking forward to results of those.
[07:56] <jono> mattl, speaking personally, I am not interested in taking away choice from the user - I want to help to provide a solid free software Operating System, but I am also open to the fact that people may choose to run proprietary software on it - that it their choice - personally I don't feel freedom includes the right to remove choice - but I do believe we need to make Ubuntu a solid free software base in which people can use it fo
[07:56] <jono> r what they like - this is a big issue, and one I have a blog post lined up for next week
[07:56] <_ubu> jono you can't expell propriety software
[07:56] <sabdfl> can I chip in?
[07:56] <jono> sabdfl, sure
[07:56] <sabdfl> mattl: Ubuntu has never been free-software-only, top to bottom
[07:56] <_ubu> unless you you come up withan alternative to flash, win32 codecs and the lot...
[07:57] <sabdfl> we have since the beginning included some proprietary drivers, for example, for wifi
[07:57] <sabdfl> it has, I think, always been possible to install Ubuntu without those pieces
[07:57] <sabdfl> they are in a specific place in the distro, called "restricted", so they are easy to identify and purge
[07:57] <sabdfl> and distros like gNewSense are basically ubuntu without those pieces
[07:57] <leetcharmer> alternatively -- there is now also gnuSense which ... man, he's one step ahead of me.
[07:58] <jono> right
[07:58] <jono> well I think our time is up
[07:58] <sabdfl> in addition, we have also made packages of proprietary software available, just not accessible by default
[07:58] <mattl> we can't tell people to not install things... however, we can not distribute them.
[07:58] <mattl> if people want Flash, Win32Codecs or Opera, they will get it.
[07:58] <jono> thanks for the excellent questions, I wish I could have got through more
[07:58] <somerville32> Thanks Jono! :)
[07:58] <mattl> but I think Ubuntu could set the bar by saying they won't distribute them.
[07:58] <juliux> thanks jono
[07:58] <sabdfl> mattl: my point is that this has always been the case - at our very first face to face meeting we decided to allow firmware, and binary drivers, just not proprietary apps
[07:59] <jono> I think I will open up the session on wednesday at 5pm UTC with Q+A so do come back then :)
[07:59] <somerville32> Jono: If you ever need a hand, I'm always happy to help with stuff! :)
[07:59] <leetcharmer> it's cool .. thanks jono bacon :D I look forward to Jokosher!
[07:59] <jono> oops 6pm rather
[07:59] <emonkey-p> jono, thx for this talk, it was a pleasure and I'm sure we'll talk soon about several things :)
[07:59] <Joe_CoT> even if you wanted a completely free Ubuntu, shipping it without proprietary software alienates people. it causes wifi cards not to work, video cards to be unsupported, etc. you can't install the binary wifi driver if you have no internet ;-/
[07:59] <jono> thanks folks, take care!
[07:59] <sabdfl> our goal is to get free software as widely used and tested and loved as possible
[07:59] <sabdfl> and we do compromise in order to get it installed and fully using the hardware
[07:59] <_ubu> I agree with Joe_cot
[08:00] <sabdfl> gNewSense takes a strong line, try that if it's what you want
[08:00] <sabdfl> Debian says no to binary drivers but yes to firmware, which IMO is the same thing
[08:00] <mattl> sabdfl: i think that compromise is an unfortunate one, and i feel the message from Ubuntu is a confusing one.
[08:00] <mattl> sabdfl: agreed that firmwares and drivers are the same.
[08:00] <sabdfl> mattl: noted
[08:00] <sabdfl> thanks jono
[08:01] <jono> sabdfl, np, thanks for your comments too
[08:01] <MacSlow> jono, tomorrow your session on "how to become a member" starts at 15:00 GMT ?!
[08:01] <mattl> sabdfl: when you say If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and undisclosed balance sheet liabilities, then please do join us. - i think that's a great statement, but i don't think it's true. if there are binary blobs and binary drivers by default?
[08:01] <somerville32> Can I ask one last quick question, Jono?
[08:01] <leetcharmer> sabdfl, If I wanted to become an entrepreneur, resulting in helping out many people -- what type of work would I do?
[08:02] <jono> somerville32, /msg me
[08:02] <sabdfl> mattl: yes, its true that ubuntu is not without controversy, i was not suggesting ubuntu is perfect
[08:02] <jordi> next in the classroom is Rosetta!
[08:02] <jono> MacSlow, yep
[08:02] <sabdfl> but i think our approach is clear, is well known, and does not create very dangerous situations for other developers, which is what i am objecting to in the novell-msft pact
[08:02] <jono> jordi, woo!
[08:02] <sabdfl> hey jordi!
[08:03] <jordi> hmm, seems I can't change the topic
[08:03] <jordi> too bad
[08:03] <tonyyarusso> jordi: Tell me what you'd like in /msg and it's yours.
[08:03] <jordi> The session is Translations with Rosetta :)
[08:04] <givre> sabdfl: i think that make an advance option in the installer to disable restricted repo https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022596.html , just like suggested collin watson should make everybody happy. Just my 2 cents
[08:04] <dneary> jordi: I'm here for you :)
[08:04] <jordi> Ok, so for those who don't know me, I'm Jordi Mallach, and I've been involved with the Rosetta team trying to be the link between the development team and the Ubuntu translators and rosetta users
[08:05] <jordi> tonyyarusso: just "Rosetta" then :)
[08:05] <tonyyarusso> hmm
[08:05] <stalefries_away> or perhaps cut down on the info
[08:06] <jordi> let's get moving
[08:06] <jordi> The Rosetta Translation Portal
[08:06] <jordi> Rosetta is one of the components that make up Launchpad,
[08:06] <jordi> Canonical's service platform.
[08:06] <jordi> Launchpad is made up of five major components: a bug tracker, a
[08:06] <jordi> request tracker, a specification tracker, a "source code"
[08:06] <jordi> supermirror and Rosetta, a web-based translation portal.
[08:06] <jordi> Christian Reis will talk tomorrow about Launchpad in general, so
[08:06] <jordi> let's focus on Rosetta.
[08:06] <jordi> Rosetta's aim is to make translation of Free Software as easy and
[08:06] <jordi> non-technical as it can get. The Rosetta team has been working on
[08:06] <jordi> creating an interface which hides the specifics of the Gettext PO
[08:06] <jordi> file format, which is the standard for translating Free Software,
[08:06] <jordi> thus lowering the barrier so anyone with a reasonable knowledge
[08:06] <jordi> of English can help out with the translations of their favourite
[08:06] <jordi> project into their mother tongue.
[08:07] <jordi> (please say if I'm too fast, I'm worried about lack of time)
[08:07] <jordi> Rosetta is the main translation system of Ubuntu Linux, and is
[08:07] <jordi> the source of all translations which appear in the Ubuntu
[08:07] <jordi> releases, and in the frequently updated langpacks. Rosetta is
[08:07] <jordi> also designed to help program authors getting their applications
[08:07] <jordi> translated.
[08:07] <jordi> A close look on the Gettext PO file format
[08:07] <jordi> [08:07] <jordi> Most of the software in your desktops use a standard translation
[08:07] <jordi> interface called GNU gettext, which is in charge of showing the
[08:07] <jordi> applications in the language the user has chosen. Application
[08:07] <jordi> programmers need to take care of marking all the user-visible
[08:07] <jordi> messages (or strings, as the initiated tend to call them) with a
[08:07] <jordi> special marker which can be extracted to plain text ".po" files.
[08:07] <jordi> We translators use these files to translate the applications.
[08:08] <jordi> Let's look at how a PO file looks. I've put some examples in
[08:08] <jordi> http://pusa.informat.uv.es/~jordi/ubuntu-school/
[08:08] <jordi> Have a look at the ubuntu-school.pot file. A POT file is a "PO
[08:08] <jordi> Template", that is, an empty PO file ready to be translated.
[08:08] <jordi> Looking at the contents of the file, you can see the format is
[08:08] <jordi> pretty straight forward: each original string in English (a
[08:08] <jordi> msgid) has its corresponding translation (msgstr). While simple,
[08:08] <jordi> the po format is quite fragile. One missing quote, and your
[08:08] <jordi> entire application build will fail with a syntax error. There are
[08:08] <jordi> several very popular PO file editors which help the editing
[08:08] <jordi> process: KBabel, PoEdit, GTranslator, Emacs PO-mode...
[08:09] <jordi> Rosetta goes one step further in easing the translation of these
[08:09] <jordi> PO files, using a clean, web-based interface which hides the
[08:09] <jordi> format, presenting only sets of string/translation pairs that you
[08:09] <jordi> can fill up. Once the work is done, it's stored in its database
[08:09] <jordi> where the information can be exported or shared among other
[08:09] <jordi> projects.
[08:09] <jordi> Using Rosetta's Web Interface
[08:10] <jordi> Rosetta is, as hinted before, divided in two main branches: one
[08:10] <jordi> serves to translate the applications of the people who request
[08:10] <jordi> it. For example, the Gobby collaborative editor is being
[08:10] <jordi> translated by Rosetta contributors, after its authors requested
[08:10] <jordi> us to set it up for them in Rosetta. On the other hand, Rosetta
[08:10] <jordi> is the platform from where Ubuntu gets all its translations.
[08:10] <jordi> We'll focus on Ubuntu a bit more now.
[08:10] <jordi> Ubuntu translations revolve around the Ubuntu translation teams,
[08:10] <jordi> which coordinate and produce the translations which get shipped
[08:10] <jordi> with every new version.
[08:10] <jordi>    https://launchpad.net/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators
[08:11] <jordi> Here you'll see a list of teams which belong to the Ubuntu
[08:11] <jordi> translation teams. While Rosetta is open enough to let everyone
[08:11] <jordi> with a Launchpad account contribute, there is need for some
[08:11] <jordi> access control, to protect quality, avoid vandalism, etc. Being
[08:11] <jordi> part of one of the translation teams grants you "write" access to
[08:11] <jordi> every translation for that language in Ubuntu. Still, if you're
[08:11] <jordi> not a member of your language's team, you can still go ahead and
[08:11] <jordi> translate. Your contributions will be also stored in Rosetta's
[08:11] <jordi> database as "suggestions", but won't appear in Ubuntu's language
[08:11] <jordi> packs until a member of the team reviews and validates them.
[08:11] <jordi> Rosetta offers a long list of applications that can be
[08:11] <jordi> translated. Taking the French team as an example,
[08:11] <jordi>
[08:11] <jordi>    https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/fr
[08:12] <jordi> we can have a look at how their translation status is for the
[08:12] <jordi> Ubuntu Edgy release. I like showing the French team because they
[08:12] <jordi> are really an amazing example of completeness.
[08:14] <jordi> woops
[08:14] <jordi> this had to happen today, I new it
[08:14] <jordi> my router just rebooted :O)
[08:14] <ivoks> hehe
[08:14] <jono> :P
[08:14] <jordi> Rosetta presents us a list of applications which are ready to be
[08:14] <jordi> translated to French, and their current translation status. As
[08:14] <jordi> you see, the French have done their homework and there's barely
[08:14] <jordi> no red bars, meaning "untranslated". See the bottom of the
[08:14] <jordi> page for the meaning of the bar colours.
[08:15] <jordi> The list is ordered from most important to less important
[08:15] <jordi> Let's see how we'd translate an application. Close to the top of
[08:16] <jordi> the list is "launchpad-integration". We'll pick this one as it's
[08:16] <jordi> easy and short.
[08:16] <jordi>    https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/launchpad-integration/+pots/launchpad-integration/fr/+translate
[08:17] <jordi> okay, I just started to look at the questions in the chat channel
[08:17] <jordi> I'll try to paste them here now, sorry about that ;)
[08:17] <waod> LOL
[08:17] <jordi> If instead of French you want to have a look at your own
[08:17] <jordi> language's translation, simply replace "/fr" in the URL with the
[08:17] <jordi> corresponding ISO 639 code. You can find the code for your
[08:17] <jordi> language here:
[08:17] <jordi> http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
[08:17] <waod> 14:38 < mogaal> Soy bruto
[08:17] <waod> 14:38 < mogaal> Comprende :(
[08:18] <jordi> In our case, the first string is "The Launchpad helper
[08:18] <jordi> application failed", which is already translated to French as
[08:18] <jordi> "L'assistant Launchpad a chou". Below the accepted translation
[08:18] <jordi> there is a list of alternative translations suggested by other
[08:18] <jordi> people. You can quickly navigate through the translation fields
[08:18] <jordi> using the tab key. Once you have completed all the strings in a
[08:18] <jordi> page, you want to save your work: hit "Save & Continue" at the
[08:18] <jordi> bottom, and if there are more strings to do, Rosetta will then
[08:18] <jordi> show them to you.
[08:19] <jordi> There are other bits that can help the translators while they
[08:19] <jordi> work on a translation: you might want to see what the translators
[08:19] <jordi> to a language similar to yours used in a string that is hard to
[08:19] <jordi> translate, for inspiration. You can get such information using
[08:19] <jordi> the "Make suggestions from" widget at the top of the string list.
[08:19] <jordi> Also, you'll be more interested in seeing the strings that need
[08:19] <jordi> work instead of those which are translated already. You can
[08:19] <jordi> filter the kind of messages you want to see using the "Show"
[08:19] <jordi> widget, where you can select from "all", "unstranslated",
[08:19] <jordi> "translated" and "needs review".
[08:20] <jordi> 20:20 < neophile> QUESTION: Is it possible to search for a string in the translation? That's major drawback when trying to correct translations. Is a search feature planned for rosseta in the near future?
[08:20] <jordi> It's currently not possible to search for a string easily
[08:20] <jordi> it is one of the most requested (and no doubtely most useful) features, and we do plan to add it
[08:21] <jordi> the implementation isn't trivial though, as the database is huge and there are some perdformance issues to solve
[08:21] <jordi> But yes, the team will focus on providing it as soon as possible
[08:22] <jordi> Using Rosetta's import/export interface
[08:22] <jordi> While the web interface has allowed many Ubuntu users help out
[08:22] <jordi> with the translations to their language, there's certainly
[08:22] <jordi> die-hard, old-time translators who will prefer using their own
[08:22] <jordi> tools (obscure emacs modules and weird command line tools!) to
[08:22] <jordi> work on their translations. Or there might be people who cannot
[08:22] <jordi> afford to be online during the whole translating session.
[08:23] <jordi> To help them, Rosetta has an import/export mechanism, which
[08:23] <jordi> allows you to easily upload translations you have worked on
[08:23] <jordi> offline, using your own ways, but you still want to see
[08:23] <jordi> integrated in Rosetta, and download your finalised files so you
[08:23] <jordi> can do whatever you want with them: back them up, send them to
[08:23] <jordi> your team's mailing list, send them to the upstream author so
[08:23] <jordi> they get included in the next release...
[08:24] <jordi> Importing and exporting is easy: to download your work, use the "Download" and "Upload file" links in the boxes at the left side
[08:24] <jordi> When requesting a download, Launchpad will prepare the file for you and will email you the location of the desired export.
[08:25] <jordi> Importing is similar. Just fill in the field with the location path to your file, and rosetta will integrate it in the database
[08:26] <jordi> I translated all night long. What now?
[08:26] <jordi> [08:26] <jordi> Okay, so you've worked on the files you were interested in, and
[08:26] <jordi> Rosetta now has all the info. What happens now?
[08:26] <jordi> Ubuntu will, on a monthly basis, extract all the translations
[08:26] <jordi> from the database and put them in the "language packs" for each
[08:26] <jordi> supported language in the distro, which will automatically hit
[08:26] <jordi> your Ubuntu mirror the 1st Monday of the month. This way, Rosetta
[08:26] <jordi> allows people to keep improving the support for their language
[08:26] <jordi> even after a Ubuntu release has shipped. For example, more than 6
[08:26] <jordi> months after the release of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, there's a group
[08:26] <jordi> working on adding Dzonghka support to Ubuntu, when there was
[08:26] <jordi> close to nothing included in dapper initially.
[08:27] <jordi> I see there's many interesting questions going on, so I propose we go on with Q+A, trying to focus on the classics: Rosetta and upstream relationship, etc.
[08:28] <jordi> 20:24 < bugman> QUESTION: In https://translations.launchpad.net/people/bugman/+translations for example, is possible to implements the view of all string translated for a package and not only the last?
[08:28] <jordi> bugman: it's possible, yes. These are wishlist features, though, and will get a lower priority than say "search a string"
[08:28] <jordi> but the info is in the database, so it's prefectly possible to show the info
[08:29] <jordi> it's important that bugs are filed against rosetta requesting these things
[08:29] <bugman> jordi: ok :-)
[08:29] <jordi> 20:26 < dneary> QUESTION: What's the recommended workflow for updating .po files outside Launchpad for the moment?
[08:29] <jordi> dneary: can you be more specific?
[08:30] <jordi> there's several scenarios: gnome-panel or launchpad-integration, for example
[08:30] <ivoks> jordi: he asks if he could see all his translations in one package
[08:30] <ivoks> just his own
[08:30] <ivoks> or someone elses
[08:30] <jordi> ivoks: bugman?
[08:31] <ivoks> yes
[08:31] <jordi> oh, I see.
[08:31] <dneary>  jordi: It's related to bug #68014
[08:31] <jordi> Well, tha can be done too
[08:31] <ivoks> urgh.. sorry lag :)
[08:31] <bugman> :)
[08:31] <jordi> (please give me full malone urls so I can open fast)
[08:31] <dneary> jordi: It seems like uploading .po files doesn't automatically update translations at the moment (if I understand the problem)
[08:32] <Gwaihir> jordi: https://launchpad.net/bugs/68014
[08:32] <jordi> dneary: right, the import mechanism is restricted right now, while a nasty bug involving reverted translations is tracked down
[08:32] <dneary> Some translations were lost, so on the 1st of November, the upload form was disabled
[08:32] <jordi> for the time being, mailing<EMAIL_ADDRESS>with import requests is the recommended way
[08:32] <dneary> So - what's the reccommended workflow for people working on .po files outside teh tree while that bug is being fixed?
[08:33] <dneary> jordi: OK - thanks :)
[08:33] <jordi> although I hope we'll go back to normal operation rsn -- aiui the bug fixing is making progress
[08:33] <dneary> I was typing rather than reading
[08:33] <dneary> cool
[08:33] <jordi> 20:27 < dand> QUESTION: any packages in Rosetta that sync automatically with upstream? if yes, are they marked somehow in Launchpad and how often do they sync?
[08:33] <jordi> good one: this doesn't happen right now, but is a desired feature
[08:34] <jordi> this would allow minimise the "conflicts" between rosetta and upstream preojects (KDE, GNOME...) translations
[08:35] <jordi> so if some translator has rights to translate both on Ubuntu and GNOME CVS, a translation inserted in Rosetta could be exported to GNOME
[08:35] <jordi> we want this, but it'll won't be here before some time
[08:35] <dand> alright, thanks :)
[08:35] <jordi> 20:27 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is it possible to have a --use-fuzzy implementation for exporting mo files?
[08:36] <jordi> Gwaihir: as far as I know, we don't do this now because Rosetta generates fuzzies using its own knowledge. I guess it'd be easy to add an option to generate files with fuzzies, yes. Is there a bug filed?
[08:37] <jordi> 20:29 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is there any difference between "fuzzy string" in po and "Need review" in Rosetta?
[08:37] <jordi> I've gone over this as I wanted to keep the text dump simple
[08:37] <jordi> but yeah, needs review can map to fuzzy
[08:37] <jordi> some teams do use it as in the strict "needs review" sense though
[08:38] <jordi> ie, theey translate it, but if they are not sure, they use the mark so others can easily find the unsure strungs
[08:38] <jordi> strings even
[08:38] <ivoks> right, that's common practice
[08:38] <jordi> 20:29 < somerville32> QUESTION: How does a member of a translation team approve suggested translations?
[08:39] <jordi> The current implementation is built on very complex copy and paste technology :)
[08:39] <ivoks> (could we get a checkbox instead?) :)
[08:39] <jordi> we do have plans to have the checkbox :)
[08:40] <pepsiman> jordi: there's a greasemonkey script which helps
[08:40] <jordi> I'm a bit on time pressure I guess, otherwise I'd dig the relevant spec urls
[08:40] <danilos> Gwaihir: another thing to note: currently, both fuzzy and string needing review is implemented using the same mechanism in rosetta; there is, however, a plan to separate these out and put them to their right meanings (i.e. fuzzy == machine-selected "similar" string; needs review == human selected "unsure" string)
[08:40] <bugman> ivoks: i written a spec on this but it was rejected
[08:40] <jordi> danilos, maybe you can find some of the relevant ones so people can read over them
[08:41] <jordi> danilos is one of the main rosetta coders. Woo! :)
[08:41] <jordi> 20:31 < somerville32> QUESTION: If I suggest a translation and then join the translation team later, are all my suggested translations automatically approved?
[08:41] <jordi> somerville32: no, as far as I know. That could be dangerous on some cases, actually
[08:42] <jordi> but it might be a good idea to do it if the string was unstranslated
[08:42] <somerville32> So I have to go and redo all my work? haha
[08:42] <jordi> I can't stress enough that having bug reports for all the requests is really helpful
[08:43] <jordi> 20:32 < dand> QUESTION: any plans so far on opening Rosetta for contributions?
[08:43] <jordi> dand: "opening", I assume you mean opening the source code
[08:43] <dand> yeah
[08:43] <danilos> on dneary's QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
[08:43] <Gwaihir> jordi: for the --use-fuzzy question I've a bug was opened: https://launchpad.net/bugs/70974
[08:43] <danilos> dneary: yes, Rosetta keeps a history of all translation contributions
[08:44] <jordi> There's sabdfl's statement that Launchpad will be freed when the project is ready to do so. We can't give dates or estimations on when that might happen.
[08:44] <jordi> There are people helping out with Launchpad on a NDA basis, though.
[08:44] <jordi> Gwaihir: thanks
[08:44] <dand> jordi: k, thanks
[08:45] <jordi> 20:36 < bugman> QUESTION: It's possibile to hava a Wiki page (or other similar) for see LangPack scheduling?
[08:45] <Gwaihir> jordi: you are welcome!
[08:45] <jordi> bugman: the general rule is "1st Monday of the month". We chose this because it's easy to remember. I'm sure this is written up somewhere though, can't find a pointer irght now
[08:46] <bugman> jordi: ok thanks
[08:46] <danilos> dneary: but no, we don't have the level of details you wonder about (when string has moved from suggestion to approved, etc.)
[08:46] <jordi> there's a Plan to write docs pointing these things clearly
[08:46] <jordi> 20:36 < dneary> QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
[08:47] <jordi> a feature showing how a string has changed over time has just been rolled onto production, and Rosetta is now gathering this info
[08:47] <jordi> This will be good to help team leaders track bad translators
[08:48] <jordi> 20:40 < neophile> QUESTION: Where someone should translate a package, in head brunch or in the edgy brunch?
[08:48] <dneary> jordi: danilos already answered that - thanks to you both
[08:48] <jordi> neversfelde_: this very much depends on the specific packages
[08:49] <jordi> we have a feature on our queue, which will allow someone translating gnome-panel in edgy "push" that same translation to dapper, feisty, or GNOME CVS HEAD if applicable
[08:50] <jordi> so you just have to translate once
[08:50] <ivoks> that would be awsome
[08:50] <jordi> neversfelde_: of course, if you translate the Panel in GNOME CVS, that translation will automagically percolate to the next ubuntu release
[08:51] <jordi> this gets us to the "working with upstream" chapter
[08:51] <jordi> while rosetta is a great tool to get ubuntu translated verfy easily, it's vital that the translation teams cooperate with their upstream teams
[08:52] <jordi> ie, the French Ubuntu team should be in contact with the French GNOME team, so they use the same guidelines, etc
[08:52] <jordi> or don't duplicate efforts
[08:52] <bugman> yes is the same with itlian team
[08:52] <bugman> * italian
[08:53] <jordi> we've had problems with some teams redoing all the work in Rosetta, which resulted in a completely different set of translations in Ubuntu and other distros.
[08:53] <jordi> The "translation override" feature in rosetta is powerful and useful if used wisely. If it goes out of control, it can cause frictiuons between teams.
[08:54] <jordi> We need to work on that, I believe it's a procedural problem which can be mostly solved by educating new translators which join the ubuntu teams
[08:55] <jordi> there's been quite some talk on this on the rosetta list, and teams like italian or Brazilian have already implemented some measures to work nicely with their upstreams
[08:55] <Amaranth> metacity
[08:55] <bugman> i quit, thanks jordi :-)
[08:55] <Amaranth> beryl-manager
[08:55] <jordi> 20:45 < aleka> QUESTION: If I am eager to help the Ubuntu community, and the only way I can right now if through translation, What Can I do when the admin of a team does not respond to my requests or approve my membership to the team?
[08:55] <jordi> good one!
[08:56] <jordi> aleka: we're seeing this every now and then
[08:56] <jordi> the best and quickest way is to mail us at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:56] <pepsiman> lots of people apply to teams without telling the team leader their email address
[08:56] <jordi> and we'll mediaate
[08:57] <jordi> ie, we'll try to contact the current leader. If he doesn't respont, we'll transfer leadership to whoever we think deserves it (ie, whoever wants to do the work ;)
[08:57] <jordi> pepsiman: good point. That's bad, and I've suffered that myself.
[08:58] <jordi> danilos: we should think on some way to circumvent this, when a leader can't contact a member because there's no public email address
 QUESTION: We have had some issues with translations where people outside the project translated things badly, and we couldn't easily revert to the correct translation - how can I configure our translation to make sure only approved translation team members can do the translation?
[08:58] <jordi> danilos: want to answer that one?
[08:58] <danilos> dneary: at the moment, members of the translation team should only be those you trust; in other words, anyone who is member of your translation team can approve/modify translations
[08:59] <dneary> And only translation team members can do translations?
[08:59] <dneary> Thanks
[08:59] <jordi> right, we ACK that there's oversized teams right now.
[08:59] <jordi> dneary: if the given project is setup up like that, yes
[08:59] <danilos> dneary: yes; anyone else can post suggestions -- we'll work on improving team layout (and docs), so this is clear to everybody
[09:00] <jordi> 20:51 < tonyyarusso> QUESTION: Does Rosetta have some method for handling dialects?  I'm just getting the ball rolling for a language (oji) that varies widely (esp. for technical terms)
[09:00] <jordi> tonyyarusso: not yet, but both danilos and I are involved with teams which would benefit of dialect support
[09:01] <jordi> We really want to see this happen, but it's not high priority right now
[09:01] <jordi> 20:53 < somerville32> QUESTION: How do you know if a translation is suggested or approved?
[09:01] <tonyyarusso> jordi: What is the best way to approach things for the time being then until it is implemented?
[09:01] <jordi> a approved translation appears in the translation field
[09:01] <jordi> suggestions appear as suggestions beneath it
[09:02] <danilos> jordi: as far as unresponsive team leaders, we can establish regular "checks" with team leaders; but that's something I feel ubuntu l10n coordinator should handle, since it's not a direct rosetta issue
[09:02] <jordi> danilos: ^ want to answer that one?
[09:02] <jordi> yeah, we haven't mentioned the coordinator at all
[09:02] <danilos> jordi: sure
[09:02] <jordi> 20:53 < dneary> QUESTION: Can I export translations in other formats than .po?
[09:03] <jordi> dneary: no, Rosetta currently only groks po files
[09:03] <jordi> although it will soon be able to export firefox and openoffice data via langpacks.
[09:03] <metatecque> QUESTION - is Brandon here yet - isn't the open kubuntu discussion scheduled to start now?
[09:03] <danilos> somerville32: any actual translation is the approved one; suggestions only appear as "suggestions"
[09:03] <somerville32> kk
[09:03] <jordi> but not via the standard export mechanism as far as I know, danilos can correct me
[09:04] <dneary> So I need to do a post-processing move to generate a .ts?
[09:04] <imbrandon> moins all ( sorry i'm really lagging here )
[09:04] <jordi> 20:57 < dneary> QUESTION: What happens in Rosetta when an overridden string gets changed in a later revision of the upstream translation?
[09:04] <danilos> dneary: btw, we're working on adding native support for other formats right now; first to come should be firefox XPIs, OpenOffice GSI's, KDE PO files, but we also have plans for XLIFF and others
[09:04] <jordi> Rosetta has a "tracker" which makes it think it should follow what comes from upstram or not.
[09:05] <imbrandon> jordi: ping me when you wrap it up i'm going to try to fix my lag issue
[09:05] <jordi> In short, if you change a string, forking it to something different, it'll stay forked unless you put the upstram string back again.
[09:06] <dneary> jordi: How do you get to decide?
[09:06] <jordi> We want to implement a filter so it's easy to find these strings and do a "merge with upstream" for them, etc.
[09:06] <dneary> Is there a fuzziness thing that shows you changed over-ridden strings?
[09:06] <jordi> imbrandon: okay
[09:06] <jordi> just kick us out when you're ready
[09:06] <jordi> dneary: no, there's proposals to mark them as such
[09:06] <jordi> hasn't happened yet
[09:07] <jordi> 21:01 < aleka> QUESTION: where can I get help in aquiring fonts that I need for translating (Amharic - ethiopic fonts) that work in Linux. This question emailed to team leader twice and no response..
[09:07] <jordi> aleka: you might want to ask in the ubuntu-devel list
[09:07] <jordi> mark shuttleworth has big interest in getting ubuntu working out of the box for special script like yours
[09:08] <jordi> if there are free fonts, it should be easy.
[09:08] <imbrandon> ok jordi i think i'm fixed up here
[09:08] <danilos> aleka: finding that information is sometimes even hard for the team leader, since it might be scattered all over internet
[09:08] <jordi> just on time, because we're done with the questions
[09:08] <imbrandon> :)
[09:08] <jordi> Thanks everyone, and thanks danilo!
[09:08] <jordi> next, Kubuntu!
[09:09] <ivoks> thank you jordi and danilos
[09:09] <kappa> thanks, jordi and danilos!
[09:09] <danilos> everyone else, feel free to ping us whenever you've got questions :)
[09:09] <ivoks> watch out, ping flood :)
[09:09] <imbrandon> Hello everyone, I'm gonna kinda do this informal like, I have about 15 minutes worth of things to let everyone know about , things I think you might be interested in as new comers then I will let every one do a Q & A session.
[09:09] <imbrandon> All I ask during the Q & A is that you speak one at a time so we can get as much covered in this timeslot as possible.
[09:09] <imbrandon> What is Kubuntu? Kubuntu is the KDE centric sibling to Ubuntu, We have the same Dreams and Goals as Ubuntu , we just go about getting their via a different desktop.
[09:10] <imbrandon> Kubuntu runs ( very well ) almost entirely community driven with very few core developers and at the moment only on canonical paid employee ( Johnathan Riddell )
[09:10] <imbrandon> ( sorry for the lag time foks my connection is a bit slow right now )
[09:10] <imbrandon> bear with me :)
[09:10] <imbrandon> Looking forward to Feisty we have some exsciting things going on, a lot of KDE4 development is taking place and we're working hard to make it so KDE4 and KDE3 can be
[09:11] <imbrandon> installed side by side so developers can work hard to port their app to KDE4 without worrying about compiling all of KDE just to work on their own app. ( of course the option to compile core KDE4 is still their too :P )
[09:11] <imbrandon> Also we have a lot of other new exciting things like plans to test and include KOffice 2 in feisty+1 and have ( and try to continue to make ) Useability improvements as suggested by the KDE Useability team that in turn gets absorbed upstream.
[09:12] <imbrandon> And also a lot of little things that just make life easier , such as automatic installation of codecs when one tries to play say an MP3 in Amarok and such.
[09:12] <imbrandon> and lots of other great things all packed into a single CD
[09:14] <imbrandon> are their any areas that you aparticularly interested in ?the community , the development ?
[09:14] <imbrandon> ( man my lag is not good atm )
[09:15] <Jucato> both, but more probably in development
[09:15] <imbrandon> tsmithe: well there are a few things
[09:15] <imbrandon> 1 we share the same ideas as ubuntu in that we strive to make everything as easy as possible but still have a free distrobution
[09:15] <imbrandon> and also
[09:15] <tsmithe> 1 is a given ;)
[09:16] <imbrandon> right :) and also
[09:16] <Lure> tsmithe: lots of Kubuntu PyQt3 stuff needs porting to PyQt4 as preparation for KDE4 - if you know python, that may be nice task
[09:16] <imbrandon> we work very closely with upstream projects to try alot of useability features and default setting so  everything
[09:17] <imbrandon> works very smootly togather as a unified desktop NOT the best of bread , but more about intergration
[09:17] <imbrandon> and the ploiferation of KDE based applications
[09:17] <imbrandon> you will notice things like FireFox isnt installed but we work on konqueror and such
[09:18] <robotgeek> does kubuntu have a task list, varying by complexity, like KDE junior jobs, etc?
[09:19] <imbrandon> robotgeek: not at the moment but that is one of the things we worked on doing at UDS
[09:19] <imbrandon> it will be a reality in the next few weeks
[09:19] <cbx33> imbrandon, what of utilities created for the gnome environment....are people availbale to help with porting them to KDE - or is that not a desired approach?
[09:19] <Lynoure> Is there a typo in the topic or is there really activity here only two hours a day?
[09:19] <metatecque> Question: Does kubuntu have plans to develop for the mobile environment?
[09:19] <Lynoure> "between 3pm and 5pm UTC"
[09:20] <imbrandon> cbx33: that is a very desired approach, infact there are alot of opertunities for pykde devel in kubuntu at the moment ... the installer is the most noticeable but
[09:20] <robotgeek> hmm, 3 pm to 9 pm, maybe Lynoure (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek)
[09:20] <Lure> metatecque: is "mobile environment" like laptop or you talking about ubuntu on gadgets?
[09:20] <metatecque> more in the line of gadgets - but as powerful as a laptop
[09:20] <cbx33> imbrandon, excellent
[09:20] <imbrandon> cbx33: theree is a whole list i can provideon the wiki after the meeting
[09:21] <cbx33> fantastic
[09:21] <cbx33> maybe I'll port gisiomount to kde native ;)
[09:21] <imbrandon> metatecque: what mobile env? laptops ort phones/pda?
 QUESTION: I noticed now in Kubuntu, in KDE Control Center -> System Administration -> Windows Applications it configures WINE easily with one click following Wine installation. Can we expect any additional such quick and easy tools to be included in KDE Control Center in the future?
[09:22] <metatecque> phones / pda / "sony mylo" type devices
[09:22] <imbrandon> yes you can look for ALOT , not just in the control center but all accross kubuntu
[09:22] <imbrandon> install on demand is a major thing we're tweaking for feisty
[09:22] <cbx33> is kubuntu hoping to include compiz/beryl for feisty?
[09:22] <Lure> lotusleaf: grub config was discussed for feisty, not sure of other plans
[09:23] <mocker> Is the new start menu that SuSE made going to be ported over?
[09:23] <imbrandon> cbx33: not for feisty no, it will be an easy to install feature but not on by default in kubuntu
[09:23] <cbx33> ok
[09:23] <imbrandon> mocker: it already is in feisty as an optional package
[09:24] <imbrandon> mocker: but likely wont be default
 kde4 will arrive with feisty or later?
[09:24] <imbrandon> dtamas: our kde4 plans are to release it as the main desktop with feisty+1 but feisty will have it avaible for installation from the repo with just a few clicks
[09:25] <metatecque> see my comment on mark shuttleworth's blog - http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/68#comment-13814
[09:25] <Lure> dtamas: feisty kde4 will be targeted for kde apps developers, feisty+1 is for users
[09:25] <imbrandon> metatecque: well it would be nice but kde upstream dosent support those devices
 QUESTION: will there be at any stage, the release of a DVD EDITION, containing Ubuntu and all its derivatives with the option to choose either gnome, kde or xfce on install?
[09:25] <dtamas> ok, thanks
 QUESTION: I am asking about the release of a dvd that you are able to install either Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu off and also the ability to choose either Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu for a live session. Is this likely to happen, will there be an official release
[09:26] <metatecque> what about developing for a device, even if we have to port it downstream?
[09:26] <imbrandon> mahtavamatt: that has not been proposed to my knolage and not in the works , but that dosent mean it wont happen sometime
[09:26] <mahtavamatt> okay, thanks
 QUESTION: KDE development cycle, doesn't sync with Ubuntu's (which sync's with GNOME). How does this affect Kubuntu? weren't there talks/proposals about separting Ubuntu's and Kubuntu's releases?
[09:27] <imbrandon> metatecque: its really a question of man power, i see no problem with that but we need the interested developers to do the port of QT etc to make that viable
[09:27] <mahtavamatt> for a system admins  like myslef it would be very handy
[09:28] <Lure> Jucato: kde does not have fixed life cycle (yet), so it is hard to plan release on it - current approach is to pick what is current at ubuntu release time.
[09:28] <imbrandon> Jucato: there were talks at one time about splitting the kubuntu releases to sync them with KDE more closely but I dont think that will happen untill AFTER the next LTS
[09:28] <Lure> Jucato: this may change if kde moves to more predictable release cycles
[09:28] <imbrandon> ( e.g when KDE4 makes a fixed cycle )
[09:28] <imbrandon> Lure: exactly
[09:28] <Jucato> ah
 QUESTION why did the team adopt KDE 4 so early (feisty), this "in between version time" could have been used to perfect stuff such as printing, boot screen, session switching etc...
[09:29] <imbrandon> vyoman: very much work is stiull going into kde3 and kde3 will still be the default desktop, kde4 will only be there as an option for developers , so they can start porting their apps early
[09:30] <imbrandon> vyoman: kde4 wont be the derfault desktop in kubuntu for atleaste 1 more year
[09:31] <imbrandon> also
[09:31] <imbrandon> we strive to keep everything on one install CD so with that in mind things like kde3 and kde4 wont both be default
[09:32] <imbrandon> and things like KOffice by default ( to promote both kde apps and save space and memopry ) are looked at but defered to later releases
[09:33] <imbrandon> ( again sorry for my lag in typing my ssh connection is kinda slow )
[09:33] <imbrandon> with that said , what ar some of the things you all are looking for in the next release? ( please post to -chat )
[09:34] <imbrandon> do you feel the entry to help with kubuntu has worked so far? is there anything we can do to improve that ?
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to improve Kubuntu performance?
[09:35] <imbrandon> somerville32: yea , infact just before this class i was looking at ways to opti the loading of files on the live cd
[09:36] <imbrandon> and many other various improvemnts go into the loading every chance we get
[09:36] <Lure> vyoman> QUESTION is the team aware of the troubles caused by upgrading from dapper to edgy and if so have any lessons been learned?
[09:36] <|harry|> On the Ubuntu podcast, one of the hosts made a comment about the performance of SUSE linux as oppose to Kubuntu. Why is their a difference?
[09:36] <gsuveg> re
[09:37] <popey> there is an ubuntu podcast?
[09:37] <Lure> vyoman: fesity will get update-manager like ubuntu which should cover upgrades
[09:37] <finalbeta> @upgrading question, One of the Feisty specs seems to be directed at solving those problems. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/dist-upgrader-fixes
[09:38] <imbrandon> vyoman: yes we are aware of the issues, that is one reason we work ultra close with the ubuntu developers ( we are alot of the same team ) and also why there is a port of the upgrader tool to kubuntu for feisty
 QUESTION: Why does kubuntu appear to run faster from a live cd than the generic ubuntu?
[09:38] <|harry|> http://ubuntuos.com/podcast/feed.xml
[09:38] <imbrandon> that is not an official ubuntu podcast but yes there is one on ubuntuos.com
[09:39] <imbrandon> ( i also hear rumors there might be one in the future TheFridge
[09:39] <imbrandon> shhh
[09:39] <vyoman> BTW i love kubuntu and like to say thank you guys for all the hard work (don't like to sound rude <s>)
[09:39] <imbrandon> cbx33: that is purely appearance afaik
 QUESTION: Can we expect a frontend for iptables like Firestarter or Guarddog to be installed by default in future versions of Kubuntu without the user having to seek it out themselves?
[09:39] <cbx33> imbrandon, ok
[09:39] <imbrandon> vyoman: none taken:)
[09:40] <fabio_> and a GUI for the nfs mount?
[09:40] <imbrandon> lotusleaf: we have discussed this before at KCC meetings and decided against it, thats not to say it wot be revisited again, come to a meeting and tell us you want ti !
[09:41] <imbrandon> fabio_: yes a GUI for NSF ( and samba ) mounts is in the works for kubuntu system settings
[09:41] <Lure> lotusleaf: firewall decision will probably depend on overall *ubuntu decision - so we may just follow it
[09:41] <imbrandon> its oe of the many pykde apps ready for help :)
[09:41] <fabio_> yes imbrandon but i use ubuntu :p
 QUESTION are there any plans to use (or adapt) the Kickoff menu instead of current K menu?
[09:42] <imbrandon> barsanuphe: it has been discussed but defered untill more testing can be done, but it is in talks
[09:42] <imbrandon> weeather ti will be default or not is still up for grabs
 QUESTION: a lot of KDE users are complaining about how Kubuntu changes KDE too much (Konqueror, System Settings) or removes some things (Kuickshow). What are the developers' comments and reasons for this? How do they go about making such decisions and from where do they base these changes (studies, surveys, comments)?
[09:42] <imbrandon> but it will be avail for an option atleaste
[09:43] <imbrandon> Jucato: well thats depends on how you look at it, here is the process
[09:44] <imbrandon> most kubuntu developers are upstream kde devlopers OR work closely with them, most of the defaults are sugested by ellen from KDE usability or celeste,
[09:44] <imbrandon> ( including system settings )
[09:44] <imbrandon> once they are proven to work out well they are given back to upstream
[09:44] <imbrandon> as far as how
[09:45] <imbrandon> they are decided , that is done for the mostpart at bi-weekly kubuntu meetings
[09:45] <Lure> Jucato: lots of distros test new concepts now with kde3 as these ideas may be used for kde4 as default - suse kickoff is perfect example, kubuntu media:/ fixes may be another one
[09:45] <imbrandon> right
[09:45] <gnomefreak> do we even have a kickoff package?
[09:46] <Jucato> ok... I guess the process isn't really just clear. A common misconception is that Kubuntu developers randomly remove/change things without much notice (even in release notes)
[09:46] <Lure> Jucato: some changes may not be pleaseant to everybody, but you do not know this until they go out in the wild - /.hidden is good example which was backed out for feisty
[09:46] <imbrandon> gnomefreak: yes i uploaded it yesterday ( it my still need approval from archiove admins )
[09:46] <gnomefreak> :)
[09:46] <Lure> Jucato: and yes, this should be better documented
 QUESTION: Qt is supposed to be offering a clear looks theme since recently. Will this only be used for compatibility towards GNOME. Or could this be standard. Because allot of GNOME users could be turned if KDE didn't look like a failed XP style attempt. (last part is my own opinion of course)
[09:47] <imbrandon> Jucato: yes that is a misconception and we'll try to make that more transparent for the feisty cycle
[09:47] <Jucato> that's great news indeed :)
[09:47] <Jucato> thanks!
[09:48] <imbrandon> finalbeta: no kubuntu will keep its own distinct look
[09:48] <Lure> finalbeta: this is only in Qt4, so not possible before feisty+1 (at least for users)
 QUESTION having installed kubuntu on grandads and the milk man's machine, one of the features family guys are missing from windows is prettier and faster session switching, what is the plan?
[09:49] <imbrandon> vyoman: i really dont know the plans for that but i do know there are plans in the works for kde4
[09:49] <imbrandon> to vastly improve that
 QUESTION will kuickshow ever come back?
[09:50] <imbrandon> barsanuphe: anything is possible but gwenview is serving us well
[09:50] <imbrandon> at the moment
[09:50] <Jucato> (but needs kipi-plugins)
[09:50] <Lure> barsanuphe: it was removed due to dependany issue - if this would be resolved upstream, we may include it again
 QUESTION: What's Riddell's favourite drink? :)
[09:51] <fabio_> QUESTION will be implemented some like ubuntu media center like windows media center?
[09:51] <imbrandon> irun brew ?
[09:52] <imbrandon> iron bru !
[09:52] <ivoks> uh, thanks
[09:52] <ajmitch> imbrandon: irn-bru, I think
[09:52] <imbrandon> ajmitch: thanks
[09:52] <tenshu> fabio_: there is a third party project called Ubuntu Center but at this time it is in planning phase
[09:52] <fabio_> tenks
[09:52] <Lure> ivoks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irn_bru
[09:52] <imbrandon> ok guys I'm going to wrap this up, and I promis not to lag out my next session, thanks everyone
[09:53] <imbrandon> i'm gonna hand this over to LaserJock now for package stuff :)
 QUESTION: What is imbrandon's favorite drink ;p ?
[09:53] <tenshu> see ubuntu official forums fabio_ for more infos
[09:53] <nixternal> ;p
[09:53] <imbrandon> MT DEW
[09:53] <Jucato> lol
[09:53] <imbrandon> !! FWT
[09:53] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about FWT - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[09:53] <imbrandon> ok guys, thanks alot, LaserJock good luck
[09:53] <Jucato> thanks imbrandon!
[09:53] <nixternal> thanks imbrandon !
[09:53] <cbx33> thanks imbrandon
[09:54] <ajmitch> good work imbrandon
 QUESTION Is there any chance that kubuntu will have more than one paid dev? (Didn't Mark promise something like this on LinuxTag?)
[09:54] <imbrandon> ( btw the saturday session will be lag freee )
[09:54] <LaserJock> ack, my clock says I have 6 minutes
[09:54] <imbrandon> Zerlinna: yes
[09:54] <ajmitch> LaserJock: 5-min break between sessions
[09:54] <Lure> Zerlinna: probably Q for Mark tommorow on Q&A...
[09:54] <imbrandon> Zerlinna: we just dont know who or when it will happen ( i'm guessing very soon )
[09:55] <imbrandon> but better to ask mark tomarrow
[09:55] <imbrandon> right Lure
[09:55] <Zerlinna> ok :)
[09:55] <cbx33> LaserJock, no we want you to start NOW !
[09:55] <imbrandon> ok i'm out fellas, you all rock
[09:55] <ivoks> you too

[09:57] <somerville32> I think my head is going to blow with all this awesome new stuff I'm learning today! :D
[09:57] <fabio_> QUESTION, when i open the recorder, the stop button was always hidden and i must resize always the window, when the defult windows will be increase? :D
[09:58] <popey> fabio_: works fine here
[09:58] <fabio_> :o
[09:58] <popey> on feisty :)
[09:58] <fabio_> yesss but also with me nowwww
[09:58] <popey> :)
[09:58] <fabio_> sorry for mistake!! :p
[09:58] <djay-il> QUESTION: when would package maintenance things will be explained?
[09:59] <fabio_> maybe is tango!
[09:59] <finalbeta> djay-il, any minute now.
[09:59] <LaserJock> 1 minute
[09:59] <tonyyarusso> imbrandon is all done?
[09:59] <djay-il> oh, cool
[10:00] <gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: looks like it
[10:00] <cbx33> my clock says now LaserJock :p
[10:00] <djay-il> I had another question, just don't know who to ask
[10:00] <Jucato> yep, he already detached
[10:00] <Lure> djay-il: ask in -chat or in #kubuntu-devel
[10:01] <LaserJock> ok, I think that's my queue
[10:01] <LaserJock> Hello everybody!
[10:01] <LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a PhD Chemistry student and Ubuntu volunteer.
[10:01] <djay-il> Lure, even if its not really technical?
[10:01] <LaserJock> In Ubuntu I'm a Universe developer, a part of the Documentation Team, on the Edubuntu Council, and am just generally an Ubuntu-holic.
[10:01] <LaserJock> Today I want to talk a little about what how we maintain software once it's already in our software repositories (Main, Restricted, Universe, Multiverse)
[10:01] <LaserJock> First of all, in order to keep the noise level down a bit in here, please also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat and when you want to ask a question just put a "Question:" in front of your question. Thanks.
[10:02] <LaserJock> To be honest I don't have a full hour of lecturing ready
[10:02] <LaserJock> and everybody goes "Yay!"
[10:02] <finalbeta> yay
[10:02] <tictacaddict> Yay!
[10:03] <somerville32> :)
[10:03] <LaserJock> so I'll start out with some material and then open it up for some Q & A
[10:03] <LaserJock> I think there are 2 things that are important to keep in mind here:
[10:03] <LaserJock> 1. Ubuntu is intimately connected to Debian
[10:03] <LaserJock> 2. Ubuntu uses Launchpad ( http://launchpad.net ) for virtually all package maintenance
[10:03] <LaserJock> Let's look at both of those a little more carefully.
[10:04] <LaserJock> Ubuntu, as most of you probably know, is derived from Debian
[10:04] <LaserJock> which is one of the oldest Linux distros around
[10:04] <LaserJock> At the beginning of every Ubuntu development cycle the archive admins update the Ubuntu development repository with the packages that are currently in Debian unstable (Sid).
[10:04] <LaserJock> If the package was previously changed or modified by Ubuntu it will have ubuntu in the version (alacarte's version in 6.10 is  0.10.1-0ubuntu1 for instance).
[10:05] <LaserJock> If the package has an ubuntu version then it won't be "synced" automatically, but instead a special script called Merge-o-Matic (MoM) will try to merge the changes as best it can and spit out a report on http://merges.ubuntu.com
[10:05] <LaserJock> *Every* updated package that previously had Ubuntu changes is checked manually and either merged if the old changes are still needed or synced if they can be dropped. This takes a fair amount of time and accounts for a lot of the maintenance work we do in Ubuntu.
[10:05] <LaserJock> In Universe our primary goal is the manage (and minimize) the divergence we create from Debian. In Main there is a bit more emphasis on going beyond just managing divergence and really into developing and leading the way in desktop development.
[10:06] <LaserJock> Because of our intimate connection it is important that we keep at least some track of what's going on in Debian. We do this primarily via the Debian Bug Tracking System (BTS)
[10:06] <LaserJock> http://bugs.debian.org
[10:06] <LaserJock> and Package Tracking System (PTS)
[10:06] <LaserJock> http://packages.qa.debian.org
[10:06] <LaserJock> This allows us to keep track of Debian versions and bug fixes.
[10:07] <LaserJock> OK, so now I'll give you a little time to digest all that and ask any questions so far
[10:07] <LaserJock> nice, I see I've explained everything perfectly :-)
[10:08] <tictacaddict> I have a question
[10:08] <LaserJock> shoot
[10:08] <tictacaddict> Can unmodified debian packages normally be installed in Ubuntu?  will there be problems with dependencies sometimes?
[10:08] <LaserJock> yes
[10:08] <LaserJock> there are differences
[10:09] <LaserJock> although the source packages may not be different, *every* package in Ubuntu is rebuilt in an Ubuntu environment
[10:09] <LaserJock> so the resulting binary packages often have slightly different dependecies
[10:09] <greguti> I have a question..
[10:09] <whowe> QUESTION:  Will Ubuntu packages work fine in Mepis or should you use the Debian packages, I have noticed on a machine with Mepis that it uses Ubuntu repositories
[10:09] <danbuntu> QUESTION - by roughly how much do the packages change, what changes and why?
[10:10] <cbx33> danbuntu, that's exactly what I was goign to ask
[10:11] <LaserJock> whowe: they might, but there certainly isn't any way to say for sure. It's obviously best to use packages built for your distro
[10:11] <greguti> QUESTION: how many people spend their time checking the MoM packages? You said it takes a lot of time, but for how many developpers?
[10:11] <LaserJock> danbuntu: primarily the changes are in dependences or if there is something that Ubuntu is pushing forward with
[10:11] <amnesia> post the questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[10:11] <LaserJock> examples have been when we used a newer default Python and gcc version
[10:12] <LaserJock> we had to "tweak" the dependecies to use those versions
[10:12] <somerville32> LaserJock: Did you finish your presentation and now at Q&A or are we just in a Q&A "break"?
[10:12] <LaserJock> Q & A break
[10:12] <somerville32> :)
[10:12] <LaserJock> I've got more
[10:12] <LaserJock> some package change very little, like literally one line
[10:13] <LaserJock> other are pretty heavily patched
[10:13] <LaserJock> it depends on what Ubuntu wants to have to maintain
[10:13] <LaserJock> because the next time around we are going to have to merge those changes back in
[10:13] <LaserJock> so that goes to greguti's question of just how much time is this taking
[10:14] <LaserJock> well, generally it takes all the developers a few months to get the process comleted
[10:14] <LaserJock> Main has more paid developers and there is a larger packages/devs ratio
[10:14] <LaserJock> so it goes faster
[10:14] <LaserJock> to give you an idea
[10:15] <LaserJock> there are 18656 source packages in Edgy Universe
[10:15] <LaserJock> 1250 of them have ubuntu versions and have to be merges/synced
[10:15] <tsmithe> woah
[10:15] <La_PaRCa>  QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian BTS and PTS automatic for each package or is it "by hand"?
[10:16] <LaserJock> in Main the number is 5382 and 978
[10:16] <LaserJock> so total in Ubuntu there are roughly 2000 packages that have to be manually looked at with each release
[10:16] <LaserJock> La_PaRCa: some of both
[10:16] <greguti> that's a lot!
[10:16] <ajmitch> it is a lot
[10:16] <LaserJock> and there are roughly 80-100 people doing it
[10:17] <tsmithe> 20 each
[10:17] <ajmitch> but not all of them are updated every release cycle
[10:17] <greguti> that is an average of 20 packages for each people...
[10:17] <Sionide> ajmitch, aye but dependencies etc might change so they still need testing (i guess anyway)
[10:18] <LaserJock> yes, each package must be looked at, modified if needed, and rebuilt and tested befor it ever gets uploaded
[10:18] <cbx33>  Does one need an intimate knowledge of make/automake to be able to package "make" source tree?
[10:18] <greguti> (thanks for all these informations, this Open Week irc chats are such a great idea)
[10:18] <LaserJock> intimate, no, some is helpful though :-)
[10:18] <tenshu> is debian merging changes with ubuntu packages the same way ubuntu does?
[10:19] <LaserJock> tenshu: no
[10:19] <LaserJock> Debian has a different maintainance structure than Ubuntu
[10:20] <LaserJock> in Debian each package has a maintiane or even team of maintainers that "own" a package
[10:20] <LaserJock> in Ubuntu we use team maintianence
[10:20] <Lure> QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian systems automatic for each package or is it by hand?
[10:20] <tsmithe> didnt we have that q?
[10:20] <Lure> ^^^ by <La_PaRCa>
[10:20] <LaserJock> so MOTU ( Masters of the Universe) maintain *all* of the Universe repo
[10:21] <LaserJock> ok, so an example of a semi-automatic system is a list I maintain for the MOTU Science team
[10:21] <LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.list
 QUESTION: Is it possible that a package which has no bugs in debian has bugs in Ubuntu?
[10:22] <LaserJock> ^^ is an example of a system we set up to track Ubuntu and Debian changes
[10:22] <tsmithe> LaserJock, not found
[10:22] <tsmithe> :(
[10:22] <LaserJock> sorry
[10:22] <LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.html
[10:22] <tsmithe> cool
[10:22] <LaserJock> adefelic1: yes it is possible, anytime you modify something there is a chance you introduce a bug
[10:23] <LaserJock> we'd like to think we fix more then we introduce :-)
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to keep WINE up-to-date and available as a .deb within the official Ubuntu repos, rather than have it sit at the version it is now within them, leaving people to use a 3rd party repo without a gpg key (unless they compile from source) to get the latest version?
[10:23] <LaserJock> well, that is always the goal
[10:23] <gnomefreak> what version is it at now?
[10:24] <gnomefreak> 22?
[10:24] <LaserJock> we don't sit around all day thinking how we can give users old, crusty software
[10:24] <LaserJock> we try to do our best to have as stable and updated of software as we can
[10:24] <LaserJock> but wine is maintained by the Ubuntu community and it's a tough packages
[10:24] <LaserJock> so you are more than welcome to help maintain it and we can help you along the way
[10:25] <cbx33> compiling from source is pretty easy
[10:25] <cbx33> esp for wine
 Question, what's the recommended route for some interesting in contributing to package maintaing?
[10:25] <LaserJock> Get in contact with the MOTU team
[10:25] <LaserJock> either #ubuntu-motu or the ubuntu-motu mailing list on lists.ubuntu.com
[10:26] <LaserJock> MOTU does a lot of work on helping people learn to create and maintain packages
[10:26] <LaserJock> tsmithe: I agree
[10:26] <LaserJock> ok, lets move on a little bit more
[10:26] <cbx33> it totally does
[10:26] <cbx33> the pacakging guide is great too
[10:26] <LaserJock> the second thing I wanted to talk about was Launchpad
[10:27] <LaserJock> The first thing is you have to figure out how to use Launchpad. It is a rather large and sometimes confusing system but it also houses a lot of power.
[10:27] <LaserJock> My primary advice to people who want to use Launchpad very much is to learn how to create your own URL.
[10:27] <LaserJock> For instance, if you want to know about a particular source package use:
[10:27] <LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>
[10:27] <LaserJock> If you want to see all the bugs for a package just add on +bugs:
[10:27] <LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>/+bugs
[10:27] <LaserJock> Parts of the URL with the + in front are important, they are like modifiers to the thing that goes before it. In this case we want to see bugs for <packagename>
[10:28] <LaserJock> so really package maintainance in Ubuntu is broken down into 2 parts for the most part
[10:28] <LaserJock> the first is the merge/synce process that we've already talked about
[10:28] <LaserJock> where we sort of take a new snapshot of Debian
[10:29] <LaserJock> the second part comes after we've done that and we've "frozen"
[10:29] <LaserJock> and that is bug fixing
[10:30] <LaserJock> for that we use the Launchpad bug tracking system called Malone
[10:30] <LaserJock> ok, Lure can you pull in some more questions?
 Question - there's always talk of weather rpm, tqz, deb or what ever is better. Do you think that the current deb system is still relevent and suitable?
[10:31] <LaserJock> well, that is an interesting question
[10:31] <LaserJock> my answer is I haven't seen anything better that can be used at this scale
[10:32] <LaserJock> I think debs are still very relevent and suitable
[10:32] <Lure>  <tictacaddict> QUESTION: Malone like Mal-Won or Maloney
[10:32] <LaserJock> there are a major reason why Debian is as stable and secure as it is
[10:32] <cbx33> mal-own?
[10:33] <LaserJock> and it is also in development
[10:33] <gnomefreak> ma-lone is kind of how i say it :)
[10:33] <LaserJock> me too
[10:33] <Lure> gnomefreak: +1
[10:33] <ryanakca> m-alone :)
 Question : It seems to have a lot of work done with merging/syncing; But why does it take so long to get a package accepted through REVU?
[10:33] <LaserJock> ah, good question
[10:34] <LaserJock> the basic answer is (in my experience) it is very difficult to review other people's packages
[10:34] <LaserJock> in fact I can often take more time reviewing a package than the person did actually making it
[10:34] <woodwizzle> I'm still a big fan of portage. It solves most of the problems with dependencies and has excellent features for optional packages etc. It makes updating very easy too. Its just that loooong compile time that ruins it. I would like something new with most of those features.
[10:35] <LaserJock> woodwizzle: yes, I'm a former Gentoo user. portage has some rather nice features
[10:35] <Joe_CoT> yes, aren't we /all/ former gentoo users ^_^
 QUESTION: Can you explain backports and stable release updates? How easy is it to get each approved respectively? What circumstances call for these to occur?, etc.
[10:36] <LaserJock> tenshu: to continue answering your question, it's also a time managment issue. maintaining the packages we already have takes a lot of time too
[10:36] <LaserJock> people want new packages
[10:36] <LaserJock> people want the latest packages
[10:36] <LaserJock> people want bug-free packages
[10:36] <LaserJock> at some point we can't do it all :-)
[10:37] <LaserJock> so we try to work on a little bit of all of those
[10:37] <Lure> LaserJock: and it is only 6 month to do this all ;-)
[10:37] <LaserJock> yes
[10:37] <LaserJock> we spend a few months getting all synced up to Debian
[10:38] <LaserJock> we spend a fair amount of time bug fixing
[10:38] <LaserJock> people intersted in the timing should check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule
[10:38] <Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[10:38] <LaserJock> ok, yes
[10:39] <Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackportsHowto
[10:39] <LaserJock> once a Release has been released it is really frozen
[10:39] <LaserJock> we don't add any totally new packages
[10:39] <LaserJock> and we have 3 channels for updates
[10:39] <LaserJock> -security (what the name suggests, security fixes)
[10:40] <LaserJock> -updates (major and high impact bug fixes. "Ma, my computer ate my homework"
[10:40] <LaserJock> -backports ( taking packages from the development release and building them for a stable release)
 QUESTION: why did you choose to use Launchpad and not some other bug-tracking and versioning system? What are the benefits of this system?
[10:41] <LaserJock> we have policies in place (as Lure gave some URLs for) for all of these
[10:41] <LaserJock> greguti: ah, well Launchpad is written by Canonical
[10:41] <LaserJock> we used to use bugzilla for our bug-tracking
[10:42] <LaserJock> but Canonical wanted to build a large infrastructure for distro and software development
[10:42] <kudzubane> malone vs. bugzilla?
[10:42] <LaserJock> so we have bug tracking, translations, specification tracking, meeting tracking, teams
[10:43] <LaserJock> so when Launchpad and Malone seemed usable we switched over
[10:43] <LaserJock> and now we are using it for package building and archiving
 QUESTION: Are there plans to make the REVU process documented a little clearer?
[10:43] <LaserJock> of course :-)
[10:43] <cbx33> short ans sweet I love it ;)
 QUESTION: are there formal regression tests for new/updated packages during the revu process?
[10:44] <LaserJock> we have plans of making everything perfectly documented and running like a well-oiled-machines
[10:44] <LaserJock> however, that takes a lot of manpower and will take some time
[10:45] <LaserJock> kudzubane: revu specifically?
[10:45] <kudzubane> LaserJock: yes
[10:45] <LaserJock> REVU is primarly designed for brand new packages, ones that don't exist in Ubuntu/Debian currently
[10:45] <kudzubane> LaserJock: my mistake, all packages
[10:45] <LaserJock> we usually use bug reports for patches to existing packages
[10:46] <ajmitch> there are plans afoot for distro-wide testing
[10:46] <LaserJock> I can't speak a whole lot about Main on this
[10:46] <LaserJock> but there are plans
 QUESTION: Where should bugs against feisty get filed in launchpad? Do we have to check whether the package differs to the one in Edgy?
[10:46] <LaserJock> so far it's more-or-less been up to individual developers to test things before uploading
[10:47] <LaserJock> diocles: file it like any bug. it's always helpful to say what release you are running and what version of the package you are using
 QUESTION - do you ever get time to sleep or is all just package, package, package?
[10:47] <LaserJock> diocles: what's sleep?
[10:47] <ajmitch> LaserJock never sleeps, he just keeps on going
 QUESTION: what does the final '4' mean in the package version: 0.9.22-0ubuntu4
[10:48] <LaserJock> gumpa: well, the first time we changed it we used 0.9.22-0ubuntu1
[10:48] <LaserJock> the 4 just means we've updated that package 3 more times
[10:48] <LaserJock> since then
 QUESTION: Wouldn't it be better to have some of the newer packages make it into -updates instead of -backports? Sometimes people don't like enabling -backports and -updates. Maybe -updates would be appropriate? Example, the recent changes upstream for flashplugin-nonfree. It meant that flash was broken on newly installed dapper systems until you use -backport or manually install the -backport deb.
[10:49] <LaserJock> well, that's a tough question
[10:49] <Terminus> whoops just i meant they don't like enabling just -backports. sorry. i just woke up. =)
[10:49] <LaserJock> we have worked out a Stable Release Updtate policy that should help clear up what does and doesn't go into updates and makes sure it is properly tested
[10:50] <LaserJock> the problem is that -updates and -backports have a different focus
[10:50] <LaserJock> -updates is focused at fixing bugs in an existing package
[10:50] <LaserJock> that has to make sure that we aren't introducing new bugs
[10:51] <Terminus> well, i would say that flashplugin-nonfree not working is definitely a bug. =)
[10:51] <LaserJock> we want to make the user's system *more* stable not less
[10:51] <LaserJock> -backports is focused more at getting the latest versions
 QUESTION: How do we 'get our hands dirty'?
[10:52] <LaserJock> I'm not sure about flash but it does take more time to get into -updates then -backports because of the stability issue
[10:52] <Terminus> i see. thanks. =)
[10:53] <LaserJock> I'd really encourage everybody interested in contributing to check out the MOTU
[10:53] <LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[10:53] <LaserJock> and #ubuntu-motu
[10:53] <LaserJock> these are the community volunteers that make Universe and Multiverse work
[10:53] <LaserJock> and they are the entry point into learning how to package and maintianing packages in Ubuntu
[10:53] <LaserJock> I can in now way do justice to the topic in 1 hr
[10:54] <LaserJock> but hopefully I've given you a few things to chew on and perhaps answered a few of your questions
 Question: Sorry, what is REVU again?
[10:54] <greguti> thanks a lot for your time
[10:54] <LaserJock> we really like to emphasize community participation
[10:54] <LaserJock> and you are really welcome to help us out, no matter what your skill level is
[10:55] <LaserJock> we aren't just looking for programmers (although they are handy too ;-) )
[10:55] <LaserJock> tictacaddict: revu.tauware.de
[10:55] <LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
[10:55] <Lure> tictacaddict: revu is read as "review"
[10:55] <tenshu> yes i can tell it packaging don't required (much) programming skill
[10:56] <LaserJock> it's the system we wrote to allow us to review and include packages from the community into Universe
 QUESTION: Wouldnt it make sense to have the auomatix packages available as standard but restricted depending on your location. i.e. if they are legal in your part of the world?
[10:56] <LaserJock> zi99y: no
[10:56] <LaserJock> Automatix is something that is used quite a bit in forums community
[10:57] <LaserJock> but it is essentially obsolete
[10:57] <LaserJock> and I really don't see it serving a purpose anymore once Feisty is released
[10:57] <LaserJock> it filled a gap for a while, but it's probably time for it to go soon
[10:58] <LaserJock> but that's just my opinion :-)
[10:58] <Lure> zi99y: see also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonCustomizations
[10:58] <LaserJock> we saw lots of breakage in the Dapper->Edgy upgrades because of third party repos
[10:58] <LaserJock> and scripts like Automatix
[10:58] <Lure>  <tm|ubuntu> Is there any plan to have something analogous to debian-volatile?
[10:59] <LaserJock> it's just hard on the system to do things like that
[11:00] <LaserJock> tm|ubuntu: well, there has been a longstanding proposal for something called Grumpy Groundhog
[11:00] <monkeric> LaserJock: this has been super useful.  Just wanted to say a huge Thank You.
[11:00] <LaserJock> it might be somewhat similar, although more towards debian's experimental repo
[11:00] <LaserJock> ok, I'm done
 QUESTION: Will the "becoming a MOTU" get a structure? ie: Step1, Step2 and so on?
[11:00] <LaserJock> Thanks everybody
[11:00] <LaserJock> _MMA_: yes it will
[11:00] <tictacaddict> Thank YOU!
[11:01] <kudzubane> thanks for sharing , it was enlightening to peep into a component  of a the a new (to me) distro
[11:01] <LaserJock> hmm, I guess I'm the last person of today
[11:01] <greguti> thank you so much, ubuntu rules :-)
[11:01] <tiagoboldt> sure, thank U! :D And the ones responsible for these sessions :D
[11:01] <LaserJock> so if you have any remaning questions feel free to ask
[11:01] <stani> thanks!
[11:01] <tenshu> thanks LaserJock, and i'm hoping REVU will becom more efficient in a close future
[11:01] <tenshu> =)
[11:02] <Jucato> QUESTION: where's the food? don't they give those out after seminars? :P
[11:02] <zi99y> any opensuse devs here? :D
[11:02] <LaserJock> Jucato: ahh, Google is the place for food
[11:02] <geser> Jucato: in the fridge :)
[11:02] <amnesia> LaserJock: thanks for the info today
[11:02] <LaserJock> tenshu: we do to
[11:02] <zi99y> thanks LJ
[11:02] <tenshu> =) count on me
[11:02] <Jucato> heheh :)
[11:03] <antihec> but do take care, things in the ubuntu fridge are of rare supply and sometimes a bit old ;-)
[11:03] <LaserJock> antihec: maybe even a bit moldy :/
[11:03] <Jucato> eww... :)
[11:03] <LaserJock> OK, make sure to come tomorrow if you can
[11:03] <LaserJock> lots more info
[11:03] <LaserJock> and fun!!!
[11:03] <Terminus> thanks LaserJock =)
[11:03] <antihec> LaserJock: :-)
[11:04] <Jucato> thanks LaserJock!!
[11:04] <tiagoboldt> packaging would have chatting for hours :D
[11:04] <Jucato> lots more fun in the Ask Mark session :P
[11:05] <tiagoboldt> sure 'how's space mark?' xD
[11:05] <jonasj> thanks LaserJock, it has been very enlightning.
[11:06] <tonyyarusso> robotgeek: Fine!  Be that way!
[11:07] <robotgeek> tonyyarusso: heh, beat you to it :)
[11:07] <tonyyarusso> :(
[11:07] <robotgeek> tonyyarusso: you can change it tommorow morning to "current session" :)
[11:19] <LjL> gnomefreak: i've had Keyseir run "memtest" (not memtest86, but memtest from the "memtester" package - it's a program that checks RAM *from inside* Linux)
[11:20] <LjL> gnomefreak: and he's getting a bunch of failures. which means either the RAM is bad, or Linux is messing up badly with it. and since memtest86 isn't failing, i guess it's really just Linux
[11:22] <antihec> LjL:  third possibility: "memtester" is br0ken.
[11:22] <Seveas> @channel plugins.questions.enabled True
[11:38] <andy> hi
[11:44] <root> exit
[11:44] <root> quit
[11:44] <root> exit
[11:48] <andre2> hi all
[11:48] <Pirige> hi
[11:49] <andre2> i read about the ubuntu week today on heise online
[11:49] <andre2> but missed the appointment :(
[11:50] <Terminus> andre2: there're chat logs available. see topic. =)
[11:50] <nalioth> andre2: there are 4 more days  :)
[11:50] <tristanbob> are the logs of these classroom discussions going to be posted anywhere?
[11:50] <Seveas> @next
[11:50] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:50] <nalioth> tristanbob: /topic ?
[11:50] <LjL> tristanbob: /topic
[11:51] <Pirige> Did I miss the kubuntu talk?
[11:51] <andre2> yes
[11:51] <Pirige> when was it?
[11:51] <tristanbob> nalioth: thanks - LjL
[11:52] <dabaR> Pirige: you can read the logs, like I am...
[11:52] <dabaR> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
[11:52] <Seveas> @dump
[11:52] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:52] <Pirige> thanks
[11:52] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:52] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:52] <Ubugtu> No more questions
[11:52] <Seveas> @clear
[11:52] <Seveas> @dump
[11:52] <Ubugtu> No more questions
[11:52] <LaserJock> Seveas: is it working?
[11:52] <Seveas> yes
[11:52] <LaserJock> how does it work?
[11:53] <zorglu_> Seveas: you do a bot to handle meeting/conference thru irc ?
[11:53] <Seveas> LaserJock, I'll send an email to sounder in a it
[11:53] <Seveas> bit*
[11:53] <LaserJock> Seveas: ok, excellent
[11:54] <Terminus> Seveas: does that have perms? i'd hate to think what would happen if somebody randomly does @clear. =)
[11:54] <Terminus> or maybe restrict that kind of access to ops?
[11:54] <Seveas> it has no perms
[11:54] <Seveas> may be useful
[11:55] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: Oooh, yeah.  op restriction would be important, potentially.
[11:55] <nalioth> nobody has perms for @clear, to my knowledge
[11:55] <Seveas> nalioth, it's the @clear of the just writtn qustions plugin
[11:55] <Seveas> everybody can do that
[11:55] <samkong> I missed all today.. :(
[11:56] <nalioth> ok, i'm very lost
[11:56] <Seveas> nalioth, don't worry :P)
[11:56] <Seveas> err s/P//
[11:57] <antihec> there are logs, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[11:57] <samkong> is there any log of today's conversation on this room?
[11:57] <samkong> :)
[11:57] <antihec> samkong: might want to read up.
[11:57] <samkong> heh thanks
[11:57] <antihec> welcome :)
[11:57] <dabaR> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html samkong
[11:57] <samkong> :)
[11:57] <andre2> great
[11:57] <samkong> thanks a lot..
[11:57] <samkong> :)
[11:58] <andre2> so i have a lot to read tomorrow
[11:58] <antihec> yeah, me too :)
[11:59] <Seveas> nalioth, is the person who runs a session opped/voiced?
[12:00] <apokryphos> generally
[12:00] <Seveas> which of them?
[12:00] <Seveas> oped?
[12:00] <nalioth> Seveas: the channel hasn't been moderated that i've seen
[12:01] <tonyyarusso> Seveas, nalioth: We've had a little of everything.
[12:01] <Seveas> nalioth, two new commands need to be restricted without people registering with the bot
[12:01] <Seveas> so preferably the person doing a session is opped
[12:02] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: It is relatively easy to have the presenter (or at least someone in attendance) opped.
[12:02] <Terminus> or at least voiced
[12:02] <apokryphos> they were opped, but generally it wasn't +m
[12:02] <apokryphos> it really depends on the talk though


[02:07] <steve__> hi, i just installed a new hard disk into my server yet the directory its mounted on suddenly became owned as root.  how do i make users be able to write to it?
[02:08] <soren> steve__: Change the owner after you mount it.
[02:08] <steve__> soren: and it will stick?
[02:08] <soren> steve__: Yes.
[02:08] <steve__> ok
[02:09] <soren> The root of the file system has ownership and permissions and such. When you mount it somewhere, it's those settings that get applied, so the ownership and permissions of the directory onto which you mount the filesystem doesn't matter anymore.
[02:10] <soren> ..until you umount it again, of course.
[02:11] <steve__> soren: ok i did but its still not letting me write to it
[02:12] <soren> steve__: Give me the output of "ls -ld /path/to/the/mount/point" and tell me which user you're using.
[02:15] <steve__> soren: i had to chmod 770 it
[02:15] <steve__> i think it works now
[02:15] <soren> Rock.
[02:20] <camgame> hello, I install apache and php in my ubuntu7.04, but i cann't start apache server. when i start apache server, it view: Cannot load /usr/local/apache2/modules/libphp5.so into server: /usr/local/apache2/modules/libphp5.so: undefined symbol: EVP_CIPHER_CTX_block_size
[02:21] <camgame> I have install openssl at /usr/local/ssl
[02:21] <camgame> Who can help me? thanks
[02:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> did you install them fromm source?
[02:22] <camgame> yes
[02:26] <camgame> is ubuntu cann't install php and apache from source?
[02:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> oh you can, but i cant help you with it :)
[02:28] <camgame> thanks, I search google, some people have the same problem. but cann't find a solution method.
[02:29] <leonel> camgame: http://dan.drydog.com/apache2php.html   take a look  maybe it can help
[02:30] <camgame> thank you.
[02:31] <camgame> I cann't open the page http://dan.drydog.com/apache2php.html
[06:23] <ki4cgp> I installed LAMP, and having problems with .php* files wanting to download instead of being processed.  myphpadmin works, but my other php app tries to download each time.  Anyone have any suggestions?  ##ubuntu said to look in here, even though I installed regular ubuntu setup
[06:24] <ScottK> ki4cgp: You're on the right channel, but not at a very popular time of day on the weekend.
[06:25] <ki4cgp> Ahh thanks
[06:26] <ki4cgp> I been scratching my head for a couple weeks on it
[06:27] <ScottK> ki4cgp: During the work week during the US/European work day are your best bet here.
[06:28] <ki4cgp> Cool.  I'm in Atlanta, so I'll likely be able to catch someone while I'm awake
[06:31] <Kamping_Kaiser> you could also try #apache
[06:32] <ki4cgp> Hrm, good idea.  Hehe.  I should have the server opened up on tabs before I'm done
[06:32] <ScottK> I'd guess it's something we did though.
[06:33] <ki4cgp> Its most likely some sort of config problem.  I seem to always have this same problem whenever I reload ubuntu
[10:12] <halcyonCorsair> does anyone know how i can get a software raid1 setup to boot if i unplug one drive? (ie. boot degraded)
[10:18] <Gargoyle> halcyonCorsair: I am sure you just have to make certain you have installed grub on both disks.
[10:22] <halcyonCorsair> no, i don't think so, there's a udev rule  or something .... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mdadm/+bug/125471
[10:22] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 125471 in mdadm "Booting from a degraded array could be improved" [Undecided,New]
[10:40] <halcyonCorsair> how can i find the uuid for something?
[10:42] <Gargoyle> ls -l /dev/disk/by-uuid
[08:18] <Yahooadam> Hey all, im having horendus trouble with ubuntu-server, every time i re-install it fails integrity checks (fsck), ive checked the HDD for bad blocks, ive swapped the HDD with another
[08:19] <Yahooadam> Currently it just segfaults when i sudo .... (altough it seems to be marginally working)
[08:19] <Yahooadam> Does anyone know what the **** is going on here, ive verified my CD image, run memtest, written 0's to the drive
[09:28] <Burgundavia> Yahooadam: burned and tried another cd?
[09:42] <Centaur5> What would cause a transparent squidguard proxy to not allow windows updates to go to workstations?
[10:19] <Yahooadam> Burgundavia, yep
[10:19] <Yahooadam> just tried _another_ hdd and it seems to be working
[10:20] <Yahooadam> so guess i was unlucky with my new one ...