[01:06] <Rocket2DMn> Hey guys, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo?action=diff&rev1=114&rev2=115
[01:07] <Rocket2DMn> Do we want to allow explanations of how to enable the root account, root is disabled by default as part of Ubuntu's security model
[01:07] <Flannel> Just ignoring it all together isn't really a healthy policy though.  The comment isn't accurate, though.  Since you can use recovery console/etc.
[01:07] <Rocket2DMn> I am against having that info there.  On the forums we don't support enabling the root account for login
[01:07] <Flannel> It's *never* necessary, and we also don't support enabling it in #ubuntu, but I'm not sure trying to censor that info is a good thing.
[01:08] <Rocket2DMn> The thing is, it circumvents Ubuntu's security model
[01:08] <Flannel> That particular person's reasons for adding it are entirely wrong, but that's not a valid reason for removing it/etc.
[01:08] <Flannel> Yes, but educating the users (so they don't want to enable root) is better than just removing the command.
[01:09] <Rocket2DMn> I think we should probably have this discussion on the mailing list, I'll send out an email
[01:09] <Rocket2DMn> Perhaps a simple note on the page thta we dont support it is good enough
[01:09] <Flannel> If someone hears (from their friends or whatever) that they should enable root, they'll google and figure out how.
[01:09] <Rocket2DMn> that is true, but it doesnt mean we should be providing that info
[01:09] <Flannel> You can put more than a simple note.  Give it an icon by it, etc.
[01:12] <Rocket2DMn> thanks for the feedback Flannel , ill take it into account in my email
[01:12] <Rocket2DMn> and you are free to respond :)
[01:14] <Flannel> Of course, the same case could be made for arr emm arr eff.  Except that's malicious.  The difference is that this one is a security choice (albeit a rather poor one)  There's plenty of verbage around it explaining that its bad (although some sort of danger icon next to the command couldn't hurt)
[01:14] <Flannel> Warning, not danger.
[01:16] <Rocket2DMn> there is already explanation at the top of the page as to why we use sudo
[01:18] <Flannel> And an explanation under that command as to why its not a good idea (and whats better)
[01:18] <Rocket2DMn> "Using the single boot parameter (for example, to repair a broken system) doesn't help much if you intend to use the root option (labeled Drop to root shell prompt) from the Recovery menu, since that option requires entering the root password. (This however seems to have been fixed in the 8.10 release.)"
[01:18] <Rocket2DMn> that is also not true, it only prompts for a password IF you have enabled the root account


[00:16] <DougCD> locked out and need to know how to clear password
[00:18] <DougCD> I'm not locked out of system but can't download anything.
[00:20] <DougCD> Authentication is loaded with something I don't know.
[00:30] <DougCD> Hi qdk
[00:32] <DougCD> So do I need to go to another connection?
[00:33] <DougCD> And do I need mike and headset?
[00:34] <DougCD> Hi tori
[00:34] <Astro7467> DougCD - you need to provide more info on what you are talking about.
[00:34] <Astro7467> Password? Headset? Connection?
[00:36] <ouroumov> DougCD, you have autologin at boot but you have forgotten your password and thus can't download any update [y/n]?
[00:40] <DougCD> Okay, I just got on with 16.04.1 and I don't have any time with Ubuntu yet.   I tried to download some stuff off of Software Boutique and I was ask for a password to download.  I read that one could use password itself but it didn't work.  So what's next?
[00:43] <Astro7467> the password is the same you used to login or created when you installed U-MATE - is that the password you forgotten? Per ouroumov's question?
[00:44] <DougCD> Yes, when I first got on I didn't have Internet yet and got on here and listened the other day.  Now I'm on with Ubuntu instead of Win 10.
[00:46] <DougCD> I got on 16.04.1 without a password just from try out.  I don't recall any password at all.
[00:48] <Astro7467> Just to verify - you installed Ubuntu MATE? not running on Live USB?
[00:48] <Astro7467> try this article; http://askubuntu.com/questions/24006/how-do-i-reset-a-lost-administrative-password#24024
[00:49] <Astro7467> 1st answer walks you through the steps
[00:49] <DougCD> I installed from a binary download to cd/dvd/rom drive
[00:50] <DougCD> (iso) that is
[00:51] <Astro7467> Have you installed it on your HDD or did you boot from the CD/DVD and select Live try-out mode?
[00:51] <DougCD> Thank you in advance for your assistance.  I'll try it.
[00:52] <DougCD> cd/dvd and just loaded it. No try out.
[01:00] <Astro7467> just wanted to confirm - the link is relevant to you then - was verifying by 'load' you meant installed
[01:35] <casanova> Hello everyone, from Venezuela!
[01:37] <casanova> Buenas noches a todos, ¿Hay alguien que hable español?
[01:38] <HoppingMadMan> A little, if you need help maybe I could ask my wife to help translate for you casanova
[01:38] <casanova> thank You HoppingMadMAn
[01:39] <casanova> Tengo instalado el Ubuntu Mate 16.04 de 64 bits desde hace 3 meses, y todo al principio estuvo bien!
[01:40] <megazell> Hi is anyone else getting and update error with an expired key?
[01:40] <HoppingMadMan> No, Megazell
[01:41] <megazell> I am getting this "Err:18 http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/strycore/xUbuntu_16.04 ./ Release.gpg
[01:41] <megazell>   The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED<PHONE_NUMBER>
[01:41] <megazell> "
[01:41] <casanova> Pero dede hace algunos dias, al escender la laptop , al parecer no reconoce el mouse ni las cornetas que tengo conectadas de manera casi permanente, para que las reconozca tengo que desconectarlas (fisicamente) y volverlas a conectar
[01:42] <casanova> ¿Alguna sugerencia o idea para resolver esto? Gracias
[01:42] <HoppingMadMan> I am going to say megazell that has something to do with opensuse more than anything
[01:43] <megazell> It's a PPA in my Ubuntu Mate install - remove the PPA?
[01:43] <HoppingMadMan> Maybe try and reinstall, casanova maybe bad update broke something between patching
[01:46] <megazell> Hmm - It seems to be Lutris related.
[01:47] <megazell> Thanks - Going to reboot.
[01:49] <casanova> Woooo! Thank You My friend, but i would not want to reinstall .. I will probe with others actions,
[01:50] <casanova> Hopping than you, for your advice
[01:52] <HoppingMadMan> Its ok, its just sometimes stuff breaks my wifes graphics broke today, due to a update so I had to reinstall Ubuntu parts of her OS today
[01:55] <casanova> Thank You! .. Where are you from?
[01:57] <HoppingMadMan> Australia but now live in México with my wife
[01:58] <megazell> Thanks for the advice and help HoppingMadMan!
[02:00] <HoppingMadMan> Don't worry, just best advice I can give you is keep a back up so if anything breaks you can simply role back to early version
[02:01] <megazell> Got it. Never seen that error before and my searches led me to old post from Ubuntu 9.10 and 12.04
[02:03] <Astro7467> megazell, do you have any custom themes installed? I recall one I had (ARC?) that came from an opensuse repository and gave this error, a little searching found it had been updated and that repository wasn't needed any more or a proper PPA had been created
[02:05] <HoppingMadMan> You know that is what I was thinking to Astro7467
[02:07] <megazell> Hey I do but this PPA was tied to Lutris - It's an open gaming platform.
[02:08] <megazell> I installed it to test some Wine games a long time ago.
[02:10] <Astro7467> megazell, if it was some time ago, could be worth uninstalling and reinstalling via software boutique - currently it doesn't fix repository changes AFAIK, but this cld be fixed in 17.04 :)
[02:12] <HoppingMadMan> Good advice Astro7467
[02:13] <casanova> Thank You guys! Good night!
[02:17] <megazell> Yeah I removed it. I don't need it anymore so I will get to it when needed.
[02:19] <Astro7467> HoppingMadMan, fellow Aussie here (Oi Oi Oi) - living in Singapore
[02:22] <HoppingMadMan> I am living here because the government want give my wife a visa at the moment
[02:24] <HoppingMadMan> They are being really hard on places they feel are from the third world trying to get visa into Australia so my wife and I live in this state of limbo
[02:25] <randall> well, that sucks
[02:25] <Astro7467> thats gotta hurt - if we decide to move back I cld hv the same issue :/ - but she is singaporean so maybe easier - tho I know MX is not a rich country, hardly thought it was 3rd world category - maybe I only saw the nice stuff when there :D
[02:26] <HoppingMadMan> Yeah it dose, but Mexico has good food its cheap so we get by even though as IT tech my job is meaningless here because IT is always a after thought
[02:27] <HoppingMadMan> Its its a grate place, that sadly is screwed over by its neighbor to the North
[02:27] <Astro7467> ummm... don't think IT as an after thought is only a mexico thing....
[02:27] <Astro7467> Mexico shld build a wall to keep them out.....
[02:28] <HoppingMadMan> Yeah well, the problem being is the government are in bed with the USA, what Mexican president has not left to go live in the USA
[02:28] <HoppingMadMan> After his term has ended
[02:31] <HoppingMadMan> Sorry, if I am hard to follow dyslexia plus being tired... Makes for hell a time trying to understand me
[02:32] <Astro7467> didn't notice - only 10:30am here
[02:35] <HoppingMadMan> Its 8:35 PM here and I have been going since just a little past 8 AM
[02:56] <HoppingMadMan> So what do you do in Singapore Astro7467
[03:05] <Astro7467> I am now starting my own business - consulting and system builds - all focused on FOSS  - Ubuntu MATE is our default shipping OS for desktops
[03:06] <Astro7467> before that I worked for MNC (who got me here) doing SAP deployment for AP & MX, then PMO, then Solution Architect until a few months ago
[03:13] <Astro7467> what line of IT you into HoppingMadMan?
[03:28] <HoppingMadMan> security and networking
[04:17] <randall> http://bit.ly/2ij6YlJ
[04:36] <Astro7467> @randall: thanks. will check out franz, I recommend mpv over vlc for stability and focus (vlc is >just viewing) and of course unity-tweak is for those unenlightened by the retrospective future of U-MATE & mate-tweak 😁
[04:44] <randall> I prefer amplayer over vlc for playing dvds vlc for juat playing music while playing NWN cause for the most part, no popup notifications that kill the game session every time
[04:44] <randall> smplayer
[04:44] <randall> but mpv is good for one off videos on and off line
[05:21] <HoppingMadMan> Speaking of media player, what is everyone using to listen to music?
[05:24] <Astro7467> I listen to all my music through Plex now (so thru browser or off mobile)
[05:24] <Astro7467> sick of rebuilding music library data etc after I redo a system or server or decide I want to redo my library layout/meta data (1000's of songs to deal with)
[05:24] <Astro7467> Clementine looked alright tho - think it's in software boutique
[05:29] <HoppingMadMan> Yeah,... My music collection is pushing 250,000 songs
[05:29] <HoppingMadMan> Its painful finding a music play that can handle that type of data
[05:31] <Astro7467> yep - I'm about 50% of your library size
[05:33] <HoppingMadMan> Yeah, tomahawk is holding up better than any other option I have come across
[05:34] <Astro7467> tomahawk? eliminate my ignorance - is a app or server/streamer solution?
[05:36] <HoppingMadMan> Yes and No
[05:36] <HoppingMadMan> You can add you own collection but it has all the ability to at streamers and what not at your choice
[05:37] <Astro7467> I will hv to check it out
[05:42] <HoppingMadMan> Its good for what it is, not super open source I feel but it is better than anything I found
[05:45] <HoppingMadMan> Because they are adding stuff for Spotify so, if you like your stuff super free as in freedom it might not be the player for you
[05:47] <Astro7467> I flexible with my FOSS-ness
[05:50] <HoppingMadMan> Yeah me to, I don't like the whole Richard Stallman philosophy
[10:06] <jack-the_ripper> can any one help randomly when im watching some thing online a crackling sound happens and its hard to get it to stop?
[10:25] <catraxx> hi guys
[10:26] <catraxx> i have a weird glitch since i installed the mese grafics drivers yesterday. For some reason all icons in mate are now tinted red. The look fine in Caja and other apps, but the task bar and all elements rendered by MATE now are red.
[10:29] <catraxx> I run Ubuntu MATE 16.04.01 LTS system: http://www.sysprofile.de/id190570
[10:46] <catraxx> No ideas?
[13:15] <sayan_> how to install atom
[15:39] <geo1> Who is here?  Anyone?
[15:50] <NeoNamo> me :)
[15:50] <NeoNamo> geo1
[15:51] <truonghuy> my pc have some errors
[15:51] <truonghuy> can you help me?
[15:51] <NeoNamo> truonghuy, try to be more specific, and we will try to help you
[15:54] <pavlushka> truonghuy: like exactly what issue you are facing or exactly what errors.
[15:56] <truonghuy> my hard disk have some problem
[15:57] <truonghuy> have tool to check it?
[16:37] <rohan_> 21062002
[18:53] <merlin__> hello i need help from someone
[19:01] <alkisg> !ask
[19:01] <alkisg> merlin__: ^\
[19:03] <merlin__> ok i can t formatted my usb flash drives , i cant delete my files with root acess and the flash drives has switch for read only
[19:04] <merlin__> and gparted to constrocet a new filesystem dont works
[19:32] <alkisg> that means it's broken and you need to buy a new one
[19:32] <alkisg> it's not an ubuntu question though...
[19:38] <NeoNamo> !patience
[19:46] <HoppingMadMan> Yeah, you killed it merlin__
[19:58] <radacheck> hello
[19:58] <radacheck> hi
[20:00] <HoppingMadMan> Hey, how are you radacheck
[22:23] <keinderber> hola


 I told him I just bought the Pimsleur German course, and a fantasy fiction book I already have but in German
[01:07] <bluefoxicy> and proceeded to go on about how I'm having more difficulty installing language packs than him; and that the repos are slow and the installer seems to be even more slow
[01:16] <crimsun> mdz: it's unlikely I'll be able to debug prior to UDS-M
[01:30] <anon^_^> Is this where you can reach members of the "Ubuntu Development Team?"
[01:30] <crimsun> anon^_^: yes, and ubuntu-devel@
[01:31] <anon^_^> I'm trying to get one package in the Ubuntu Repository rolled back to an earlier version for lucid
[01:32] <anon^_^> and one package for another project backported
[01:32] <anon^_^> they're maintained by the Ubuntu Development Team
[01:32] <anon^_^> Bugs have been filed on launchpad, but it doesn't seem like UDT actually reads the bug reports
[01:33] <crimsun> anon^_^: which reports? And yes, nearly all members read bug reports consistently.
[01:33] <anon^_^> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kftpgrabber/+bug/559245
[01:33] <anon^_^> Kftpgrabber
[01:33] <crimsun> anon^_^: however, some people have scarce resources (probably like you), so a bit of patience is well appreciated.
[01:33] <anon^_^> this project is pretty much dead, it's a nice ftp app, but development on it ceased nearly 2 years ago
[01:33] <anon^_^> last stable release was 2 years ago
[01:34] <mathiaz> kees: hi!
[01:34] <anon^_^> the devs from that project started work on a KDE4 port, but it was at an alpha stage of development missing features
[01:34] <mathiaz> kees: I'd like to develop a script that gives the list of promotion to main needed to pull a package in main
[01:34] <anon^_^> that's what the SVN is largely based on
[01:35] <mathiaz> kees: ie: promoto-to-main condor -> returns the list of other source packages that would be required to promote to main as well
[01:35] <anon^_^> I wrote some instructions up how to compile from SVN around six months ago, in the answer section on launchpad
[01:35] <mathiaz> kees: do you have an idea of how to do that?
[01:35] <anon^_^> it seems someone from UDT read the direction on how to compile, but didn't read that the SVN build is not really usable
[01:35] <anon^_^> the SVN build is what is currently available in the lucid and meerkat repository
[01:36] <crimsun> anon^_^: I think you may have a bit more cogent response in #kubuntu-devel to be honest
[01:36] <anon^_^> ok
[01:36] <anon^_^> some basically they need to rollback to the last stable release for that
[01:37] <anon^_^> another issue is with gparted
[01:37] <ajmitch> from the look of things, the SVN snapshot is from debian
[01:37] <anon^_^> seperate app, but fairly important
[01:37] <anon^_^> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gparted/+bug/574106
[01:38] <anon^_^> gparted 0.5.2-9 was released May 3rd, 2010
[01:38] <anon^_^> not really complaining about someone not noticing this bugreport yet
[01:39] <anon^_^> but earlier gparted versions had a regression where you could not edit/delete or resize any partition where an active LVM was present on the device
[01:40] <anon^_^> so if you installed your os on an LVM, you're hosed
[01:40] <anon^_^> The version of gparted in the lucid and meerkat repos has this regression
[01:49] <kirkland> akgraner: pong
[01:52] <Damascene> nxvl, hi
[01:52] <Damascene> I want to talk about bug #572776
[01:54] <persia> Damascene: Does aptoncd not work for that?
[01:54] <Damascene> hi persia,
[01:54] <Damascene> he just added some comments on that bug I want to discuss with him
[01:55] <Damascene> no
[01:55] <Damascene> we have a long discussion about it yesterday
[01:56] <nxvl> here
[01:57] <Damascene> ok
[01:57] <nxvl> the comment was basically the summary of what we talked last night (or around 20 hours ago whatever that was in your tz)
[01:57] <nxvl> persia: not it doesn't
[01:58] <Damascene> it's actually enough to provide txt file with the links for 4
[01:59] <Damascene> no need to write special script that will work on windows too
[01:59] <nxvl> from no need to will be cool is a difference :D
[02:00] <nxvl> also will be kind of hard to generate a list of downloadable packages, since you have lots of mirrors
[02:01] <nxvl> also maco's idea was good, generate a state of the system file, then get with that to an online machine and get the updates, so you only have one trip to the internet
[02:03] <Damascene> I know it's good.
[02:03] <Damascene> I just thought the last comment made it look harder to implement
[02:04] <nxvl> nope it doesn't
[02:04] <Damascene> sudo apt-get update --print-uris
[02:04] <Damascene> gives you the update links
[02:05] <Damascene> if you download them and put them in the place you might be able to start with something
[02:05] <Damascene> but the naming is different than the thing in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
[02:05] <kees> mathiaz: sure.  you'd just recursively examine all Depends: lines
[02:06] <mathiaz> kees: and recommends as well
[02:06] <kees> mathiaz: right, yeah.  which element were you curious about?
[02:07] <mathiaz> kees: well - basically I want to find out how much would be required to promote condor to main
[02:07] <mathiaz> kees: in the past we've been burned a couple of times with dependencies not being MIRed when the promotion was done
[02:08] <mathiaz> kees: so I'd like to have a reliable way to figure out *every* source package that will be promoted to main to get one source package as well
[02:08] <Damascene> nxvl, does the apt-get update store things in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ or were
[02:08] <mathiaz> kees: so I'd like to have a reliable way to figure out *every* source package that would need to be promoted to main given one source package
[02:08] <kees> mathiaz: there isn't a perfect way to do with due to alternates.  i.e  Depends: pkg1 | pkg2
[02:09] <kees> mathiaz: but if you just throw away alternates, you can probably get pretty close.
[02:09] <mathiaz> kees: right - do you know of a script that does such a thing?
[02:09] <kees> mathiaz: nope
[02:09] <mathiaz> kees: if not, would you recommend starting in python or bash?
[02:09] <kees> python.
[02:09] <mathiaz> kees: it seems that python-apt doesn't have every info required
[02:10] <kees> mathiaz: what's missing?
[02:10] <persia> Can't apt-rdepends do both forward- and reverse- analysis to address this issue?
[02:10] <mathiaz> kees: let me try again in ipython
[02:10] <kees> persia: yeah, but it's dumb about conflicts, recommends, etc
[02:10] <kees> mathiaz: I've found doing it by hand to be much simpler.
[02:11] <kees> mathiaz: if you get to like 4 things not already in main, it's a good case to discourge putting it in main.  ;)
[02:11] <mathiaz> kees: :)
[02:11] <mathiaz> kees: well - that doesn't help in giving an estimate on what needs to be done ;)
[02:11] <kees> mathiaz: for each of the pkg1 | pkg2 bits, you probably want to check each one for them being in main first, and then if non found, recurse through pkg1.
[02:11] <persia> apt-get --dry-run --print-uris install ${PACKAGE} | grep universe might be a quick way to get a list (dunno how robust it would be)
[02:12] <kees> mathiaz: right.  :)
[02:12] <mathiaz> persia: hm - that's a quick hack :)
[02:12] <mathiaz> persia: how about build-dependencies?
[02:12] <mathiaz> persia: s/install/build-dep/ ?
[02:12] <kees> persia: oh, yeah, good one
[02:12] <nxvl> Damascene: /var/lib/apt/lists/
[02:12] <persia> mathiaz: Sure.
[02:13]  * mathiaz tries
[02:13] <kees> best to start from a clean main-only chroot though
[02:13] <mathiaz> kees: yes
[02:13] <Damascene> nxvl, thanks, I'll update the report
[02:13] <Damascene> brb
[02:15] <mathiaz> persia: hm - universe/main is not available in the output
[02:16] <mathiaz> persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/427334/
[02:16] <nxvl> mathiaz: i remember i did that in barcelona for the remove sudo from the system
[02:16] <nxvl> or something like that
[02:16] <nxvl> kees: did you remember?
[02:17] <persia> mathiaz: Seems --dry-run and --print-uris don't play nice together.
[02:17] <nxvl> oh! no, i generated a list of packages that depended on sudo
[02:17] <nxvl> nevermind
[02:18] <mathiaz> persia: right - I've removed --dry-run - works good
[02:18] <mathiaz> persia: now I just need to iterate on the list
[02:18] <persia> mathiaz: I had to use -y for my test.  Remember *not* to use sudo :)
[02:19] <mathiaz> persia: :) - I'm testing in schroot using lvm snapshots
[02:19] <persia> mathiaz: So old school.  aufs-schroots are the new rage :)
[02:19] <mathiaz> persia: and --print-uris seems to induce dry-run
[02:19] <mathiaz> kees: ^^ have you heard that - lvm is sooo 2009
[02:20] <persia> It doesn't.  --print-uris expects you to go download stuff separately.  I suspect --dry-run skips the actual deb fetch, and --print-uris is hooked into that to print the URI rather than fetching it.
[02:20] <kees> persia: can do --download-only
[02:20] <kees> mathiaz: yup, aufs is the new hotness
[02:20] <persia> kees: For which?
[02:20] <kees> persia: for the --print-uris instead of --dry-run
[02:21] <persia> Oh, nifty.
[02:21] <mathiaz> And I can get the source package from the pool url
[02:22] <persia> Yep.  URIs are fairly easy to parse :)
[02:27] <anon^_^> any comment from Ubuntu Development Team on gparted?
[02:27] <anon^_^> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gparted/+bug/574106
[02:33] <persia> anon^_^: We don't typically use backports for bugfixes (and that bug isn't against a backport project).  Do you maybe want an SRU for that?
[02:34] <anon^_^> yeah that would be nice
[02:42] <Damascene> persia, may I pm?
[03:34] <micahg> Amaranth: ping
[03:34] <Amaranth> wow good timing
[03:34] <Amaranth> just got home
[03:35] <micahg> Amaranth: hi, I've got quite a few bug reports re compiz/Thunderbird
[03:35] <micahg> one example is bug 564011
[03:35] <Amaranth> well compiz hasn't changed so... :)
[03:35] <micahg> Amaranth: indeed, I just noticed that
[03:36] <micahg> Amaranth: k, I guess I'll go search/complain to upstream
[03:36] <Amaranth> sounds like they probably tried and failed to implement the _NET_WM_SYNC protocol
[03:37] <micahg> Amaranth: ok, I can research that, thanks
[03:37] <Amaranth> micahg: Plus the second person in that bug report is probably using kwin effects
[03:38] <micahg> Amaranth: I have another 5 people with compiz, but does kwin also try to implement those protocols?
[03:38] <Amaranth> micahg: I know they were bragging about finally doing smooth resize of GTK+ apps which would require that
[03:39] <micahg> Amaranth: ok, I think I have enough to search with now, thanks so much for your help
[03:39] <Damascene> persia, nxvl , I've created this page
[03:39] <Damascene> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/damascene/offline%20update
[03:40] <Damascene> please look at it
[03:41] <Damascene> bug 572776 if any one else interested
[03:41] <persia> Damascene: I'm still not sure how aptoncd isn't designed specifically to meet the issue you've described.
[03:41] <Damascene> did you read the last line in Alternative section? persia
[03:42] <Damascene> it will need you to depend on some person Machine
[03:42] <persia> Damascene: It depends on *another* machine.
[03:43] <Damascene> :)
[03:43] <persia> But any solution depends on another machine.
[03:43] <Damascene> *some person machine*
[03:43] <ScottK> persia: That or a point release ISO, right?
[03:44] <Damascene> persia, it should be ubuntu and not cleaned
[03:44] <persia> ScottK: But point-release-ISO is already a supported use-case, isn't it?
[03:44] <Damascene> persia, so you should agree with the man to not clean his system packages
[03:45] <ScottK> persia: It is.
[03:47] <Damascene> persia, have you tested Japanese language with mlterm?
[03:47] <persia> No.
[03:48] <Damascene> could you do it please?
[03:50] <Damascene> it should work fine. is there any translation for CLI programs in Japanese?
[03:52] <persia> There is.  It appears to be fine, although the widgets aren't the same as those in other programs, and it doesn't respect my "system wide" font settings.
[03:52] <persia> So, likely needs a bit of work to be a default (plus, it's feature poor compared to terminator)
[03:54] <Damascene> so the problem with vte is only for RTL
[03:54] <persia> Right.
[04:01] <YokoZar> Is there a way to specify a different make target with CDBS?  After configure I want to do make foo, not just make
[04:07] <ccheney> YokoZar: not sure how to do it but afaik you can override anything in CDBS
[04:07] <ccheney> YokoZar: i haven't used CDBS in so long I have forgotten how to do it
[04:07] <ajmitch> probably one of the rules in /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/makefile.mk
[04:07] <YokoZar> ccheney: I checked the documentation and they have special override flags for configure and clean and install but not make :(
[04:08] <YokoZar> http://cdbs-doc.duckcorp.org/en/cdbs-doc.xhtml#id490459
[04:08] <ajmitch> YokoZar: tried DEB_BUILD_MAKE_TARGET ?
[04:08] <ajmitch> sorry, it's meant to be DEB_MAKE_BUILD_TARGET
[04:08] <YokoZar> ajmitch: no I hadn't tried that, didn't see that in the docs
[04:08] <StevenK> Like CDBS has docs.
[04:08] <ajmitch> YokoZar: the source is the best documentation for cdbs
[04:09] <ccheney> yep rtsl :)
[04:10] <YokoZar> Fair enough, I'll give it a go
[04:10] <persia> Note that reading CDBS source may well make one think it's safe to use the undocumented internal interfaces: do *try* to use the documentation first, so that you don't have to redo it when CDBS changes (which does happen)
[04:11] <ajmitch> persia: the problem is knowing what's safe & what's not
[04:12] <persia> ajmitch: I believe only that in the documentation is safe, although the rest may be more or less stable.
[04:12] <ccheney> reading cdbs may also cause you to decide to use debhelper directly instead, this is a good thing ;-)
[04:13] <persia> Well, with newer debhelper, sure.  With older debhelper, I'm not sure I'd have agreed with that.
[04:13] <YokoZar> ccheney: Yes, debhelper is my favorite here, but editing a cdbs package generally means using cdbs still ;)
[04:14] <ccheney> cdbs in general used to at least be very broken
[04:14] <ccheney> i seem to recall it having issues with rebuilding at times when it shouldn't have
[04:14] <ccheney> YokoZar: yea :)
[04:14] <ccheney> my experience with cdbs internals ended in late 2004 so is quite a bit out of date
[04:15] <xnox> cdbs iterates over all packages wasting time. And it has *way* to many targets for a regular package & package-common
[04:15] <xnox> somethings are nice, most things are just too: "we are make wizards we can make do anything"
[04:16] <ccheney> xnox: for very simple packages the wasted time is probably fairly trivial, but probably not for something large like OOo
[04:16] <xnox> %:
[04:16] <xnox>       dh $@
[04:16] <xnox> done
[04:16] <ccheney> i think i saw some of the issues when using cdbs for kde
[04:17] <xnox> ccheney, they did create dh_* addons for their needs
[04:17]  * ccheney is referring to the cdbs/kde from pre 2005
[04:17]  * xnox was a happy windows XP user in 2005
[05:46] <slytherin> Auto login does not unlock the default keyring. Is it intentional?
[05:53] <ScottK> I think so.
[05:53] <RAOF> slytherin: It *can't* unlock the default keyring, unless that keyring has no password.
[05:54] <slytherin> RAOF: This is a problem then because default keyring stores even wireless keys. So user can not connect automatically to wireless connection if he chooses auto login.
[05:54] <slytherin> In that sense using auto login is a loss of functionality.
[05:55] <RAOF> Well, they can; they just need to set “usable for all users” in the connection information (which will also give them the benefit of having the network available in recovery mode)
[05:56] <RAOF> They could also just set an empty password for the default kerying, in which case it's available.
[05:56] <persia> If the wieless password is secret enough to not be available to any user, it shouldn't be autoconnected on autologin anyway.
[05:57] <persia> Anyway, the wireless keys *should* be stored by network-manager, not by the keyring (although the keyring may contain the secrets necessary to get the keys from network-manager).
[05:58] <persia> imbrandon: Didn't you dig into this recently?
[05:58] <RAOF> persia: It's not even that - even with a globally available *connection* the user will need to authenticate (via polkit) to view the actual password I think.  That's certainly nm-applet's behaviour.
[05:58] <persia> That's how it's supposed to work, yeah.
[05:59] <slytherin> The reason I am asking this is because I have seen some bug reports where users are not aware that this is the root cause.
[05:59] <persia> NM has it's own secret stores, specifically to enable use in XDG environments, so you have the same set of connections if you switch from KDE to GNOME, etc.
[06:00] <slytherin> For example, someone setup a headless server with VNC enabled (with password) and autologin. But since the default keyring does not get unlocked the user can not actually connect via VNC.
[06:11]  * ccheney found a bunch of old deb source on his system
[06:11] <ccheney> nvidia driver 1.0.1251 heh
[06:14] <ccheney> hmm all the way back to nvidia 0.9.6 actually
[06:16] <temugen> Keybuk: OK, I think I've made my final commit to http://bradmisik.com/trunk/fragraph/ unless you have any other features you want. Time to move on to other projects :)
[06:25] <imbrandon> persia: sorry i was afk
[06:25] <imbrandon> persia: dig into what? /me reads backlog
[06:25] <persia> imbrandon: No worries.  We were just discussing NM+keyrings+autologin being confusing to users.
[06:25] <imbrandon> ahh
[06:26] <slytherin> rather anything that uses keyring + autologin
[06:26] <imbrandon> you mean by loggin in they asking for a password right away ;)
[06:28] <slytherin> No. Autologin does not unlock the default keyring. So when some app uses keyring user is prompted for keyring password.
[06:48] <persia> slytherin: But this is a good thing, isn't it?  If someone *really* doesn't want to protect any secrets, they should have no password for the default keyring.
[06:50] <slytherin> right. But this is not obvious for users. Users wonder 'why am I being prompted for password'.
[06:57] <persia> Right.  It needs thinking about.
[07:24] <dholbach> good morning
[09:38] <cjwatson> smoser: originally bug 569394, although it was a bit of a wild goose chase and I ended up closer to bug 567592
[10:42]  * pitti prepares and uploads a fixed gcc-4.5
[10:42] <pitti> (talked to doko on the phone)
[10:44] <pitti> s/uploads/wait until LP is back../
[10:47] <ajmitch> morning pitti  :)
[10:49] <pitti> g'day ajmitch! how are you?
[11:07] <ajmitch> pitti: good thanks, how are you today?
[11:08] <pitti> I'm great, thanks!
[11:08] <pitti> looking forward to maverick
[11:08] <ajmitch> so am I, hopefully it'll be an interesting cycle
[11:13] <persia> It's Patch Day!  If anyone has time, please stop by #ubuntu-reviews and help us get patches applied.
[11:22] <dholbach> persia: Patch Day! 5th May
[11:22] <dholbach> persia: but you're right - it needs more publicity
[11:22] <persia> dholbach: No, it just started.
[11:23] <persia> Remember, it's considerably earlier in some parts of the world :)
[11:23] <persia> (still 4 May here too)
[11:23] <dholbach> gotcha
[11:23]  * dholbach will blog
[11:23] <persia> Thanks!  We'll be carrying on for the full international day, as I understand the schedule.
[11:31] <james_w> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/dbus/dbus/tree/dbus/dbus-spawn.c <- is there any way that have_exec_errnum can be false in that file?
[11:36] <geser> does somebody know when rmadison will list maverick or who to bug about it?
[11:37] <cjwatson> geser: oh, that would be me, one moment
[11:37] <cjwatson> geser: done
[11:37] <geser> thanks
[11:38] <pitti> cjwatson: and while you are at it, perhaps drop intrepid?
[11:38] <pitti> cjwatson: (btw, I fixed madison-lite on cocoplum)
[11:38] <pitti> cjwatson: thanks!
[11:38] <cjwatson> done
[11:38] <cjwatson> thanks for doing cocoplum
[11:38] <pitti> np
[11:39] <james_w> I think that's why we are seeing dbus "error: failed to launch program: Success" fairly frequently.
[11:44] <pitti> ooh, seems LP is back
[11:44]  * pitti uploads gcc-4.5
[11:46] <pitti> ... and accepts it
[12:07] <ogra> mumble ... so why does fuseiso only support isofs
[12:09] <persia> "iso" ? :)
[12:09] <persia> What filesystem do you want?
[12:14] <ogra> persia, any my kernel supports :)
[12:15] <persia> Well, there's lots of fuse modules :)
[12:15] <ogra> persia, fuseiso suppports loop mounting of .img/.iso files but restricts itself to isofs
[12:16] <ogra> would be nicer to have a plain fuse-loop bit that just uses the available filesystems
[12:16] <persia> Ought be easy to toss together, really.
[12:16] <ogra> the only code i found so far uses UML ...
[12:16] <Riddell> mthaddon: topic fail, cropped at end
[12:26] <tkamppeter> pitti, hi
[12:43] <bdrung> is maverick open for uploads or do we have to wait for the toolchain?
[12:43] <james_w> bdrung: topic?
[12:44] <soren> mvo: do-release-upgade on Hardy does not offer to upgrade to Lucid unless I pass -d. I'm not sure where to report that?
[12:44] <bdrung> james_w: what does "toolchain freeze" mean?
[12:45] <soren> (since I suspect it's not an update-manager problem per se, but rather something that needs changing server-side)
[12:45] <james_w> bdrung: the archive is frozen while the toolchain is prepared, but any uploads will land in UNAPPROVED
[12:46] <bdrung> thanks
[12:46] <mvo> soren: its a known think, either --proposed or -d is needed currently
[12:46] <mvo> soren: its like this because we have not enabled hardy -> lucid universally yet
[12:47] <soren> Ah, ok. So it's semi-intentional?
[12:47] <mvo> soren: yeah, also we need to better communicate this
[12:47] <ogra> its documented on the help pages
[12:47] <ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades
[13:09] <pitti> hey tkamppeter
[13:16] <tkamppeter> pitti, there is still the problem of CUPS not starting on boot for some users.
[13:19] <tkamppeter> pitti: bug 554172, bug 565197, bug 574109, http://www.cups.org/str.php?L3575
[13:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: no idea about that one, I'm afraid; the rc.d symlink seems fine and the init script present
[13:26] <pitti> smb, apw: FYI, I can't release linux (or anything else) to -updates right now, due to bug 574552
[13:27] <apw> pitti, sounds bad ... thanks for the heads up
[13:27] <pitti> apw: it is :/
[13:27] <smb> pitti, Doh, ok thanks for giving a heads up
[13:31] <apw> pitti, the bug doesn't really make it clear its affecting all proposed updates too ... i assume this appeared at lunch today
[13:32] <pitti> apw: I wrote some comments into it
[13:32] <pitti> apw: right, new LP rollout
[13:33] <apw> pitti, oddly that bug was files 20 hours ago, so before the rollout, you being affected being new ... seems the bug just widened its reach
[13:33] <pitti> apw: I still moved a package to -updates this morning
[13:33] <apw> yeah so it got a heck of a lot worse
[13:33] <apw> or its a different bug with the same symptoms i guess
[13:50] <tkamppeter> anyone around who knows about problems of daemons/services not starting in Lucid and to which package to assign the bug reports?
[13:51] <patrickd> Can anyone tell me where the lib of libboost fame is actually installed, I've queried the archive with both dpkg -L and apt-filelist but it seems like only the documentation is being installed. Even though I have installed the "dev" version. e.g. apt-get install libboost-dev libboost-python-dev
[13:52] <patrickd> dpkg -L libboost-dev only shows entries for /usr /usr/share /usr/share/doc/libboost-dev
[13:53] <geser> patrickd: when you read the package description, you will notice that it's only a meta-package to pull in the default version
[13:53] <geser> which is currently libboost1.40-dev
[13:55] <patrickd> geser, but unless I'm missing something in that package also there are only headers and doc's in it to. With no lib to link against or am I missing something?
[13:56] <kklimonda> patrickd: libboost1.40-dev depends on other dev packages ;)
[13:56] <geser> patrickd: the libboost-*-dev packages are split for each "sub"-library
[13:58] <geser> as you mentioned early libboost-python-dev: libboost-python1.40-dev contains the .so symlink (similar for the other libboost-*1.40-dev packages)
[13:58] <patrickd> ah, okay. I've found the files there in /usr/lib
[13:59] <patrickd> but I don't understand why when running for example dpkg -L libboost-python-dev it doesn't appear to touch the /usr/lib/ folder
[14:00] <kklimonda> patrickd: because libboost-python-dev is also a metapackage which depends on the current default boost version
[14:00] <geser> libboost-python-dev is once again a metapackage to pull in the default libboost version, here libboost-python1.40-dev which contains the symlink
[14:01] <patrickd> ah, okay. I think I understand what's going on now.
[14:01] <patrickd> thanks for the explanation folks.
[14:05] <tkamppeter> Anyone can help me with an Upstart problem? bug 554172, bug 565197, bug 574109 CUPS not starting on boot.
[14:08] <xaver> hi Keybuk
[14:16] <tkamppeter> Keybuk, slangasek, hi
[14:37] <dpm> mvo, when you've got some time, could you have a look at bug 573502? We might have to disable translations if it's not possible to show multibyte chars there
[14:38] <mvo> dpm: hmhm, it should be possible, let me try to verify
[14:38] <dpm> thanks!
[14:40] <aburch> (win 21
[14:40] <aburch> Mah.
[14:43] <pitti> apw, smb: bigjools is our hero, works again and kernel copied to -updates
[14:43] <StevenK> No, *I'm* the hero, damn it :-P
[14:43] <pitti> ooh
[14:43]  * pitti hugs StevenK, thanks!
[14:43] <pitti> so bigjools was the messenger :)
[14:43] <StevenK> Effectively :-)
[14:44] <smb> StevenK, Thanks then
[14:44] <seb128> StevenK, you are also the one who broke it in the first place right? ;-)
[14:44] <pitti> StevenK: you really earned your new soyuz badge!
[14:44] <StevenK> pitti, smb: Sorry for the issue
[14:44]  * seb128 runs
[14:44] <ogra> lol
[14:44] <StevenK> seb128: Yes. And I cry a little more everytime it gets mentioned.
[14:45]  * seb128 hugs StevenK
[14:45] <seb128> let's not mention it there ;-)
[14:49] <apw> StevenK, thanks!
[14:53] <pitti> cjwatson, sabdfl, kees, mdz, Keybuk: TB meeting reminder in 7 mins
[14:54] <sabdfl> thanks pitti
[15:06] <pitti> cjwatson: do you think it's ok for me to accept debhelper and cdbs? (maverick)
[15:09] <cjwatson> pitti: don't see why not
[15:10] <pitti> cjwatson: gcc-4.5 seems to build better now, *crossing fingers*
[15:13]  * abogani waves
[15:13] <abogani> Are there any chance to change behavior of /etc/init.d/ondemand (into initscripts package) to let users to choose cpufreq governor (for example through a file in /etc/default/) ?
[15:13] <ogra> abogani, file a whishlist bug (preferably with a patch ) :)
[15:15] <abogani> ogra: Ok. I'll surely do it. Thanks!
[15:16] <ogra> abogani, note though that the file should notify about the huge waste of energy and harming the environment etc in case you switch to performance ;)
[15:30] <mvo> dpm: I can reproduce the problem, it appears that we just have no font for this at the terminal
[15:43] <zyga> mvo: hi :)
[15:44] <mvo> hey zyga
[15:51] <dpm> mvo, ah, thanks for looking into it. Bummer, is there a way to fix this? I.e. installing the necessary fonts?
[15:53] <dpm> mvo, or can you think of a way we could disable the CJK translations alternatively?
[15:54] <mvo> dpm: I don't know, I don't know much about the fonts situation on the console, i.e. if there is a good font with full CJK coverage, ev or cjwatson know for sure, or the CJK users.
[15:55] <cjwatson> I know nothing
[15:57] <JFo> that isn't what I heard about you cjwatson ;-0
[15:57] <cjwatson> ok, nothing about this
[15:57] <JFo> heh
[15:57]  * dpm pheews
[15:57] <JFo> dpm, :)
[15:58] <dpm> let's try ArneGoetje or ev, then. Arne, Evan, it's about bug 573502, do you know about the font situation in the console, and if so, do you think you could comment on the bug?
[16:00] <cjwatson> oh, wait, recovery mode.  I thought you meant gnome-terminal or something
[16:00] <cjwatson> dpm: the Linux console can't render CJK
[16:00] <cjwatson> it's not a matter of fonts - it doesn't have the rendering technology
[16:01] <cjwatson> likewise Indic languages
[16:01] <cjwatson> I'm not sure about RTL
[16:02] <mvo> jibel: hello, thanks for the fixes for #566779 and #568925, I prepare a SRU for those now (and the gmarkup one too)
[16:02] <dpm> thanks cjwatson. Bummer, we'll have to somehow disable whatever translated text it cannot render, or disable translations altogether
[16:02] <cjwatson> people who need CJK text on consoles use things like jfbterm
[16:03] <mvo> hey glatzor
[16:03] <mvo> dpm: can we somehow select in rosetta that this package can not be translated into certain languages?
[16:03] <cjwatson> which wouldn't be impossible, we have a framebuffer there already in most situations now, it's just fairly cumbersome
[16:03] <jdstrand> pitti: hi! can I have you opinion on http://people.canonical.com/~jamie/ff36-apparmor.diff.txt? background: there is a pending firefox update and there are these 4 bug fixes to the apparmor profile. the aa profile is disabled by default and no chance of regression (plus, me and several other people use the profile with these commits)
[16:04] <jdstrand> pitti: the question is whether to SRU these separately, with all the associated archive churn, or push them with the pending security update
[16:05] <jdstrand> pitti: I wouldn't normally ask, but in the case of firefox, upstream adds features and bug fixes beyond security fixes, so these low regression potential items seemed kinda gray...
[16:05] <dpm> mvo, no, unfortunately it's not possible to selectively allow translatable languages in rosetta. They should either revert the translations and leave them untranslated, or we blacklist the affected languages in the package, if that is possible. I think that might be the best thing to do in the short term.
[16:06] <mvo> dpm: blacklistting is possible, I just need to add code for this
[16:07] <glatzor> heyas mvo!
[16:07] <dpm> mvo, do you think you could do that if we provide you a list of affected locales in the bug report?
[16:20] <mvo> dpm: yes
[16:36] <cjwatson> pitti: perl uploaded - should I just accept it directly?
[16:36] <pitti> cjwatson: hm, should we wait for gcc, to get perl built with it?
[16:36] <cjwatson> ok by me
[16:56] <pitti> cjwatson: hm, thinking about it, that would also need a gcc-defaults upload, wouldn't it?
[16:57] <cjwatson> I guess
[17:12] <cr3> how come building a package in PPA for maverick works for architecture any but not all?
[17:12] <cjwatson> cr3: PPAs haven't been enabled yet for maverick, so I guess you got lucky
[17:13] <cjwatson> or at least they aren't supposed to have been
[17:13] <thedoor> hi all :)
[17:13] <thedoor> can i ask some newbie questions here?
[17:33] <jibel> mvo, hey, no problem.
[17:33] <jibel> mvo, btw what do you think is the right fix for bug 545336 ?
[17:34] <jibel> mvo, it only affects spanish users because texlive-latex-extra translation is muuuch too large.
[18:07] <dmart> kees: hi, do you have a moment to discuss your comments on https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/arm-m-missing-security-features ?
[18:07] <kees> dmart: hi! sure.
[18:08] <dmart> kees: What did you mean by "nothing should be prelinking. everything is correctly already PIC"?
[18:09] <kees> dmart: I'm a bit new to ARM things, but as I understand it, nothing should be prelinking.
[18:09] <kees> dmart: it serves no purpose that I'm aware of.
[18:09] <dmart> My understanding of the potential benefits of prelinking are that you may reduce a lot of dnyamic linker thrashing during app startup, but I don't know if this has been extensively investigated
[18:09] <kees> dmart: it used to be an issue for symbol resolution, but the hash tables from a few years ago made it irrelevant
[18:09] <kees> dmart: yeah, that's a total non-issue now.
[18:09] <dmart> So prelinking is a possible optimisation, not a legacy compatibility thing
[18:10] <kees> dmart: the GNUHASH extension makes symbol look-up insanely fast.
[18:10] <dmart> I think doko integrated that for ARM now
[18:10] <kees> I view it as legacy, as the hash serves the purpose in the general case now.
[18:11] <kees> readelf -e /bin/true | grep gnu.hash
[18:11] <kees> ^^ that should answer it
[18:11] <kees> (oh right, I have armel simulator...)
[18:11] <dmart> I'd need to check with doko; I think at one point gnu.hash was present but not used for ARM (or maybe the other way around)
[18:11] <kees> so, yes.  armel has the gnu.bash stuff
[18:11] <dmart> ok
[18:12] <dmart> prelinking is still potentially interesting because we may suffer a lot of TLB misses and cache line fills during app startup at symbols get resolved.
[18:12] <kees> regardless, ASLR is missing, even if legacy apps want to prelink.  prelinking makes ASLR useless, but just for the app doing the prelink.
[18:12] <dmart> Sure
[18:13] <kees> dmart: that might be true, but I think (hope) it's an uncommon need.
[18:13] <kees> (doing prelink)
[18:13] <dmart> dunno really, currently the preformance implications are not well understood.  I don't think it's been investigated much yet, but I've heard it mentioned.
[18:14] <dmart> I've found no obvious reason why ASLR shouldn't be possible on ARM generally
[18:14] <dmart> maybe just noone did it yet.
[18:15] <dmart> kees: Next point: the vdso
[18:15] <dmart> Currently, on ARM we enter the kernel via SVC (aka SWI) - which is more analogous to INT and SYSENTER/SYSEXIT
[18:15] <dmart> s/and/than/
[18:16] <dmart> There is no need for a "well-known return address" to get back into userspace
[18:16] <kees> dmart: right, yes, ASLR> totally possible, just no one has done it.
[18:16] <kees> dmart: ah, okay.  I know that x86 starting doing sysenter because int80 was so expesnive.
[18:16] <kees> er, expensive.
[18:16] <kees> dmart: if that's not the case for ARM, then I don't really care.
[18:17] <kees> dmart: but I have to wonder why ARM has a vdso then...
[18:17] <kees> 7fff192e1000-7fff192e2000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0                          [vdso]
[18:17] <kees> seems like if it has a vdso, it should be ASLRs
[18:17]  * psusi decides to inject some luls for everyone's amusement: "Who is General failure, and why is he trying to read my C: drive?"
[18:17] <kees> psusi: hehe
[18:17] <dmart> If this is ARM, why do the addresses have 48 bits? ;)
[18:18] <dmart> I don't see this with cat /proc/$$/maps or ldd /bin/bash (for example)
[18:20] <kees> dmart: oh, perhaps the qemu environment is crazy
[18:20] <kees> dmart: I don't have a "real" ARM system.  :P
[18:21] <dmart> Maybe you are getting the host's info somehow
[18:21] <kees> I must be
[18:21]  * kees boots an ARM VM instead of chroot thingy
[18:22] <dmart> OK, well I'll tweak the blueprint whiteboard a bit based on this chat
[18:22] <kees> dmart: hah.  well that makes things easier.  ;)
[18:22] <kees> dmart: yeah, please drop the vdso thing.  :)
[18:22] <kees> dmart: do you know why ARM loads ELF so low in memory?  was there a time when it didn't have sane virtual memory?
[18:22] <dmart> vdso might be relevant later, but probably not for now.  The nearest equivalent thing is the vectors page, but it's not straightforward to move that.
[18:23] <dmart> Do you know why x86 loads ELF so _high_ in memory ;)  I've always wondered about this
[18:24] <kees> heh, I don't.  :)
[18:24] <dmart> Anyway, I don't really know why the difference exists.  I think there's just no reason not to... there's nothing else down there that we're trying to avoid
[18:25] <kees> yeah, with the mmap_min_addr stuff, it's one of the deltas between x86 and ARM.
[18:26] <dmart> There's also the issue of where the linker traditionally puts .text: for ARM it's just at the bottom of VM, leaving space for some NULL pages
[18:27] <kees> right, that's what I mean.  x86 linker goes to 0x0804000, ARM linker goes to 0x00008000
[18:27] <dmart> On x86, it's 0x8048000, but I have no idea what the 128MB gap is for.  libc seems to appear down there sometimes
[18:28] <kees> anything you're seeing below that is due to x86-32 nx-emulation patch crack.
[18:28] <dmart> ugh
[18:28] <dmart> ;)
[18:29] <dmart> Fortunately XN should work natively on ARMv7
[18:29] <kees> but yeah, dunno about the 0x08040000 bump.  anyway, was just curious, since it'd be nice to have the memory layouts be similar.  :)
[18:30] <dmart> I don't have an answer on that one.  I wondered whether the kernel used to live down there on very old kernels or something... but really I have no idea.
[18:31] <dmart> Anyways, I'll tweak the blueprint again tomorrow.  Most of it seems totally doable, though I haven't dug too deep
[18:31] <kees> dmart: cool.
[18:31] <dmart> thanks
[18:31] <kees> dmart: thanks!
[18:46]  * cjwatson wonders if this is a viable idea for making merge-o-matic lots faster
[18:55] <imbrandon> ?
[19:07] <maxb> By what logic is ureadahead a mandatory dependency of ubuntu-minimal? This seems... wrong
[19:24] <psusi> it does seem like it should go under the desktop metapackage rather than minimal...
[19:29] <psusi> also seems like the priority should not be required
[20:45] <ccheney> any gstreamer gurus that happen to have time to look at a bug for me? :)
[20:46] <notlistening> Okay I turn my printer on it pops as the make and model in the printing dialouge, what mechanism is use to get that information is it HAL?
[20:46] <ccheney> nm seb128 responded that my issue is upstream
[20:47] <notlistening> and how can i access that information?
[21:16] <psusi> HAL has been removed
[22:58] <lifeless> james_w: around ?
[23:57] <psusi> jdong, pushed my updated e2defrag to lp:e2defrag if you want to check it out
[23:58] <jdong> psusi: cool, I'll try to make time to try that
[23:58] <psusi> jdong, how's your little graph maker doing?
[23:59] <psusi> I'd like to check that out to visualize before and after


[01:57] <nigelb> mhall119: still want that review?
[02:14] <cjohnston> nigelb: yes
[02:44] <mhall119> yes
[02:57] <nigelb> looking
[02:58] <nigelb> mhall119: I don't see anything from you
[03:11] <mhall119> jcastro: http://mhall119.com/2011/12/writing-unity-lenses/
[03:49] <mhall119> Pendulum: http://blogs.igalia.com/apinheiro/2011/12/23/do-you-want-to-hear-some-news-about-gnome-and-accessibility/
[03:58] <Pendulum> mhall119: I know, I meant to blog about it today, but other stuff happened
[03:58] <Pendulum> well, meant to blog about FOG
[03:59] <Pendulum> I think AlanBell has already pointed out to jono that it would be good to send someone to the hackfest
[03:59] <mhall119> cool
[04:00] <Pendulum> (I do actually follow the Gnome a11y folks and have worked with them on some little things here and there, I tend to report up to them on what we're doing)
[08:03] <dholbach> good morning
[08:13] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:57] <AlanBell> Pendulum: not sure I said that when jono was online
[10:07] <bkerensa|AFK> good morning dholbach :)
[10:08]  * bkerensa|AFK should be in bed considering he leaves for vacation at noon and its 2am :D
[10:08] <bkerensa|AFK> lots of packing
[10:12] <dholbach> hi bkerensa|AFK
[11:14] <MobileDruif> popey: it's in! The microfiber
[11:14] <MobileDruif> Microserver
[11:21] <popey> hah
[11:25] <MobileDruif> But first: repair the laptop. I installed all i386 packages..was a bit too much of a good thing ;-)
[11:26] <MobileDruif> Removed*
[11:27] <MobileDruif> Not a good idea to be here on my mobile =P
[12:31] <duanedesign> morning all
[12:54] <MobileDruif> \o
[15:06] <MobileDruif> Now's as good time as any to make a backup of my personal data. Just to an external hdd
[16:09] <dholbach> alright my friends - I call it a day - have some great holidays and a great start into 2012 - see you! :-)
[16:10] <nigelb> g'nite dholbach!
[16:10] <nigelb> Happy holidays :)
[16:10] <cjohnston> Merry Christmas dholbach !
[16:10] <dholbach> thanks a lot my friends
[16:10] <daker> see you in Morocco ツ
[16:10] <dholbach> :-D
[16:10]  * dholbach hugs daker
[16:11] <jcastro> cya!
[16:11] <jcastro> I will see you in a week!
[16:11] <dholbach> jcastro, oh yeah?
[16:11] <jcastro> you guys meeting in morocco?
[16:11] <dholbach> that's the plan - we'll figure it out somehow :)
[16:11] <jcastro> rock!
[16:12] <daker> ツ
[16:14] <dholbach> alright - see you! :)
[16:14]  * dholbach hugs you all
[16:37] <jcastro> <-- lunching
[23:46] <cjohnston> blah blah blah blah
[23:47] <cjohnston> its like you people think its a holiday or something
[23:54] <JanC> what holiday?


[06:31] <dpm> good morning everyone!
[07:06] <dholbach> good morning
[07:24] <dpm> morning dholbach!
[07:24] <dholbach> hey dpm
[07:24] <dholbach> wow, lots of discussion on ubuntu-devel@
[07:30] <dpm> dholbach, yeah, I flicked through them, but I need to finish reading them all in more detail
[07:50] <czajkowski> morning
[11:43] <marcoceppi> What channel would be best for problems uploading to a ppa? #launchpad ?
[11:47] <czajkowski> yarp
[11:47] <czajkowski> :0
[11:47] <czajkowski> :)
[14:07] <dholbach> I forgot how much I hated working with xml
[14:32] <czajkowski> heheh
[14:32] <czajkowski> dholbach: that much fun eh
[15:02] <daker> bkerensa: what are you trying to do exactly ?
[16:39] <mhall119> JoseeAntonioR: are you around?
[16:39]  * dholbach calls it a day
[16:39] <dholbach> see you all tomorrow
[16:45] <SergioMeneses> mhall119, he is studying now
[16:45] <mhall119> who all has access to the ubuntuonair.com wordpress
[16:45] <mhall119> ?
[16:46] <SergioMeneses> mhall119, I think jcastro
[16:47] <dpm> mhall119, jcastro, popey, JoseeAntonioR and didrocks, afaik
[16:52] <SergioMeneses> dpm, ++
[17:19] <jcastro> mhall119: you should have access too, want me to add you?
[17:21] <mhall119> jcastro: sure, I just added a page to my blog for now
[17:23] <jcastro> k
[17:33] <jcastro> JoseeAntonioR: ping me when you're around
[17:33] <jcastro> I got neilpatel in for the next ubuntuonair
[17:33] <jcastro> that + the webapps guys should be a good one
[17:33] <jcastro> oh, and ivanka along with that
[17:46] <popey> that would be fun
[17:53] <czajkowski> jcastro: can you just make sure they all have a working headset or a good connection as the last time there were some problem which just takes from the show
[17:54] <jcastro> it was only robert who sucked
[17:54] <jcastro> but this time he will be prepared
[17:55] <bkerensa> I think U.S. Customs dislikes the UK
[17:55] <bkerensa> =/
[18:01] <popey> bkerensa, don't worry, we hate US customs just as much :)
[18:01] <bkerensa> popey: I do too =/ asking me what material t-shirts are made of and if pens have toxic chemicals...
[18:01] <bkerensa> lol
[18:01] <popey> hah
[18:01] <bkerensa> even asked if they were Mens, Womens or Unisex
[18:02] <bkerensa> not sure why that matters
[18:03] <IdleOne> Just to see if you know what you are receiving
[18:03] <IdleOne> if you don't know what is in the box, gives them reason to open them.
[18:03] <popey> pfft, they can open whatever they like, they don't need contrived reasons
[18:03] <IdleOne> true
[18:04] <pinky-> curiosity killed the cat
[18:04] <bkerensa> IdleOne: well how did they know what was in it in the first place? :P they described everything
[18:04] <bkerensa> they also want my tax info
[18:04] <bkerensa> :)
[18:04] <bkerensa> I sad... ahh not a chance
[18:05] <bkerensa> said*
[18:05] <IdleOne> I don't work for DHS :/
[18:06] <IdleOne> which btw Romney is going to rename to the Department of the Fatherland Security
[18:07] <bkerensa> lol
[18:07] <doctormo_> Hey guys, sorry to ask but could someone email me this link: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1187612/
[18:08] <doctormo_> Public access machines are a bummer.
[18:08] <IdleOne> doctormo_: sure, email?
[18:08] <doctormo_><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:09] <IdleOne> sent
[18:10] <doctormo_> Thanks IdleOne, you're not so idle!
[18:10] <IdleOne> I sometimes wake up long enough to do "something"
[18:12] <doctormo_> lol, what are you up to these days?
[18:12] <IdleOne> nothing much to be honest. cleaning up my C.V.
[18:13] <doctormo_> IdleOne: Looking for work?
[18:13] <IdleOne> yeah.
[18:14] <IdleOne> How bout you? The family good?
[18:39] <doctormo_> IdleOne: Yeah, working on code, graphics and ideas as usual. Though Ubuntu is harder to work on these days.
[18:40] <doctormo_> Violet is doing well, recovering from her lead poisoning with meds. Got to do the de-leading soon with a contractor... will cost quite a bit.
[18:47] <greg-g> what?!
[18:47] <greg-g> I didn't know about the lead poisoning!
[18:47] <greg-g> sorry to hear that, doctormo_
[18:50] <czajkowski> a contractor treats kids?
[18:51] <doctormo_> czajkowski: Contractor treats houses with lead.
[18:51] <czajkowski> ahh that makes more sense
[18:52] <doctormo_> greg-g: Thanks mate, been quite a month. Went on a course to learn about lead safe removal and everything.
[18:55] <greg-g> doctormo_: yuck. :/
[19:38] <jcastro> bkerensa: hey, how are those light bulbs stacking up?
[19:38] <bkerensa> jcastro: phillips is winning so far... Sylvania 2nd and generics not so good
[19:39] <jcastro> ah, no surprises so far then
[19:39] <jcastro> that's what I was expecting
[19:39] <bkerensa> Sylvanias seem fragile to some degree
[19:40] <bkerensa> I dropped three of their A19's from five feet and two broke
[19:40] <bkerensa> Phillips were fine
[19:40] <bkerensa> Phillips A19's are also brighters and use a smaller amount of wattage
[19:55] <greg-g> what the... are you the new consumer reports, bkerensa ? :)
[20:03] <jcastro> greg-g: I was thinking canary in the coal mine
[20:08] <mhall119> jono: are we still on for our call?
[20:12] <jono> mhall119, lets do it soon, I got dragged into a meeting
[20:12] <jono> will be done soon
[20:13] <mhall119> ok
[20:28] <jono> mhall119, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/cec9a740e9f778e5d82a7d6379e22ea5eb5ec892?authuser=0&hl=en-US
[20:53] <popey> jono, saw this and thought of you... http://drumoff.tv/
[20:54] <jono> popey, nice!
[22:56] <bkerensa> mhall119: If you still need crates let me know... I can get you a list of places that has them in your city
[23:31] <mhall119> bkerensa: I never *needed* them
[23:31] <mhall119> just thought they were interesting
[23:33] <jono> mhall119, could you reddit http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/09/06/opening-ubuntu-up-to-the-world/
[23:33] <jono> thanks!
[23:35] <mhall119> http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/zf4sy/opening_ubuntu_up_to_the_world/ upvote
[23:35] <jono> thanks mhall119
[23:35] <jono> that was quick :-)
[23:35] <jono> mhall119, you might want to make the title more descriptive
[23:36] <mhall119> jono: btw, the thought of you and Olay, :(
[23:36] <jono> mhall119, lol
[23:36] <mhall119> jono: not sure I can edit it.....I just had it use your post's title
[23:36] <jono> mhall119, you can usually edit the title
[23:37] <mhall119> I can before I submit, can I edit it after?
[23:37] <mhall119> if not, i'll delete it and re-submit
[23:39] <jono> mhall119, not sure
[23:39] <JoseeAntonioR> mhall119, jcastro: I'm around! :)
[23:40] <JoseeAntonioR> sorry about answering so late, I had to stay at school to practice for a contest I have on Saturday
[23:40] <mhall119> jono: http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/zf56m/jono_bacon_explains_the_rationale_behind_the/
[23:40] <mhall119> JoseeAntonioR: no worries, jcastro got me setup on ubuntuonair.com so I can help myself next time
[23:41] <jono> thanks mhall119
[23:41] <JoseeAntonioR> mhall119: you had an account, as far as I remember
[23:42] <mhall119> JoseeAntonioR: I did, but didn't have or couldn't remember my password
[23:43] <JoseeAntonioR> oh, ok, then :)
[23:43] <JoseeAntonioR> jcastro: let me know when you're around, I'll be here today, and tomorrow since 23 UTC
[23:49] <SergioMeneses> hello!
[23:49] <SergioMeneses> JoseeAntonioR, pong
[23:52] <JoseeAntonioR> huh?
[23:53] <SergioMeneses> JoseeAntonioR, pm, dont worry