[15:13] <Elion4321> Hallo. trying it again. Installed the snap package "Ktube Media Downloader". it doesn't start. is this the right place for help? OS: Ubuntu mate 18.04 x64. the snap is from snapcraft.io. where to report bugs for a specific snap package?
[15:14] <teward> Elion4321: start at https://snapcraft.io/ktube-media-downloader where it has "Contact" and "Developer Website" at the bottom of the snap's store page.
[15:14] <teward> #ubuntu-bugs isn't where to report bugs in specific snaps.
[15:15] <teward> (typically)
[15:16] <Elion4321> ok thanks.
[15:19] <rbasak> Elion4321: try https://forum.snapcraft.io/c/snap
[15:30] <Elion4321> i just sent a mail to the developper.


[04:24] <EvilMog> btw I definately like the idea of a dedicated mpich2 charm, and then just setup an alternate charm for jtr
[11:44] <jml> am now getting this error on local deploy, bootstrap and destroy-environment:
[11:44] <jml> Unable to create file storage for environment
[11:44] <jml> 2012-06-20 12:43:47,632 ERROR Unable to create file storage for environment
[11:45] <jml> hmm. IRC logs that google found indicate reboot might do the trick.
[11:46] <kaaloo> Usually if you del /tmp/juju-local or run using sudo it will go through
[11:47] <jml> Yeah, I just deleted juju-local
[11:47] <jml> I wonder why it has that error.
[11:47]  * jml wishes he had a blocking deploy
[11:49] <kaaloo> Ha!  May the juju gods help us.  Seems to go back and forth depending on the version you're using.
[11:50] <jml> Well, I don't think it's a good idea all the time
[11:52] <jml> What's the deal with all of the blank lines in debug-log during hook.output?
[11:53] <jml> also, I'm guessing debug-log flags stderr output as ERROR. Is that right?
[11:56] <imbrandon> yea
[12:00] <jml> is there any way to look at debug-log retrospectively? i.e. is it stored anywhere on disk?
[12:00]  * jml deploys again, this time w/ tee
[12:19] <imbrandon> hazmat: ping ( when you get in this morning ) need a bit of help debuggin a build issue, should be trivial i hope
[12:20] <imbrandon> jml: yes it should be stored on disk, i think /var/lib/juju or something, i totaly forget, but i konw it is
[12:20] <hazmat> imbrandon, pong
[12:21] <imbrandon> heya
[12:21] <imbrandon> i did a docs push a hour or so ago and it should look like http://www.assets-online.com/docs/juju/index.html
[12:21] <imbrandon> but no go :(
[12:21] <imbrandon> is there a build log or anything ?
[12:22] <imbrandon> e.g i put the tree nav back, and added some responsive goodies like we talked about :)
[12:24] <hazmat> imbrandon, looks quite nice
[12:24] <imbrandon> ty
[12:25] <hazmat> imbrandon, i don't have any insight into j.u.c/docs runs.. i did just update the one at jc.com/docs and it worked fine
[12:25] <hazmat> imbrandon, it might be a daily cron job
[12:25] <imbrandon> hrm kk, was 15 min before
[12:26] <imbrandon> no biggie tho i can just keep an eye out tomarrow worst case
[12:26] <imbrandon> thought there might be some logs etc , not a huge deal tho :)
[12:27] <jml> imbrandon: thanks.
[12:27] <imbrandon> should look good on tablet and phone too now, i only checked on my ipad tho
[12:31] <imbrandon> hazmat: btw i fully married the "traditional" canonical core css and bootstrap css with this push too, so like it would be easy to update jc.com to use the web-teams header but still get all the bootstrap/bootswatch goodies
[12:31] <hazmat> sweet
[12:40] <jml> 'charm help' gives me '/usr/share/charm-tools/scripts/help: 11: /usr/share/charm-tools/scripts/help: /usr/share/charm-tools/scripts/: Permission denied'
[12:41] <jml> Version: 0.3+bzr148-2~precise1
[12:41] <imbrandon> hrm how can i charm-upgrade to just a portion of the service ? e.g. a rolling upgrade
[12:43] <imbrandon> jml: thats an un helpful error but what it really means is help expects an argument
[12:43] <imbrandon> charm help <some_command>
[12:43] <jml> oh. the irony.
[12:43] <imbrandon> heh
[12:45] <jcastro> imbrandon: ~charmers now has edit rights to the wiki
[12:48] <imbrandon> jcastro: ROCK!
[12:48] <imbrandon> see my latest push ? all prettyfied
[12:48] <imbrandon> jcastro: http://www.assets-online.com/docs/juju/index.html
[12:49] <imbrandon> so whenever /docs builds next thats what it will look like
[12:50] <jml>  INFO: Setting up initscripts (2.88dsf-13.10ubuntu11) ...
[12:50] <jml>  ERROR: mount: block device /dev/shm is write-protected, mounting read-only
[12:50] <jml>  mount: cannot mount block device /dev/shm read-only
[12:50] <jml> Am getting that now when I try running dist-upgrade in my install hook (lxc environment)
[12:50] <jml> should I be filing bugs about all of these things?
[12:52] <imbrandon> likely, sorry i cant be much help, not used the local provider much
[13:03] <imbrandon> jcastro: no workie http://cl.ly/HVxl
[13:04] <m_3> imbrandon: docs merge this morning... I'm charmpilot today
[13:06] <jcastro> imbrandon: can you send a mail to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>with that screenshot?
[13:06] <imbrandon> jcastro: sure thing
[13:06] <imbrandon> m_3: E:parse
[13:21] <jml> is there a standard thing that hooks do to silence debconf warnings about backends?
[13:33] <jml> I have to bump revision every time I make a change to a charm, even while under development, right?
[13:34] <mars> jml, upgrade-charm will bump the number in the revision file for you
[13:35] <jml> mars: thanks.
[13:36] <jml> (although changing '1' to '2' is probably the least of the things I want automated :))
[13:36] <mars> hehe
[13:38] <jml> debconf :( upgrade questions :(
[13:39] <m_3> jml: maybe you mean DEBIAN_FRONTEND='noninteractive'?
[13:39] <jml> where do I mean it?
[13:39] <m_3> jml: asking about how hooks silence debconf warning
[13:40] <jml> so just export that at the start?
[13:40] <m_3> juju sets up the hook exec environment with that set already
[13:41] <SpamapS> jml: you can use deploy --upgrade
[13:41] <m_3> oh, now I think I understand your question... sorry.  you can do something like `apt-get update || true`
[13:41] <m_3> doesn't _silence_ them, but it doesn't barf on them either
[13:42] <jml> SpamapS: thanks.
[13:43] <jml> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1050895/ – that's where my install hook blocks at the moment.
[13:44] <jml> SpamapS: should I destroy between deploy --upgrade?
[13:44] <SpamapS> jml: I encourage everyone to make the upgrade-charm hook call 'stop;install;start;config-changed' so it basically redeploys
[13:45] <jml> SpamapS: oh right. there's a hook. :)
[13:46] <jml> SpamapS: if you encourage everyone to do that, why doesn't the charm created by 'charm create' do that?
[13:46] <SpamapS> Its also not a bad idea to "refresh" all your relations by calling them all over again but that requires careful refactoring.
[13:46] <m_3> jml: so it looks like you might need to echo some config params to debconf-set-selections for that
[13:46] <SpamapS> jml: *GOOD IDEA*
[13:46] <SpamapS> honestly.. IMO juju core should do it
[13:46] <jml> SpamapS: I abstain from that category of discussion :)
[13:46] <m_3> SpamapS: jitsu-core does though :)
[13:46] <SpamapS> should just call upgrade-charm; ... all of that
[13:47] <SpamapS> m_3: huh? :)
[13:47] <m_3> juju-do will refire a relation right?
[13:47] <jml> I'm working up my first serious charm. Will probably just have to grep my logs here for r'<jml>.*\?'
[13:47] <SpamapS> m_3: jitsu do was renamed 'jitsu run-as-hook', because no, it does not do that
[13:48] <jml> first tip: wait until the US is awake
[13:48] <jml> ok, what's jitsu?
[13:48] <SpamapS> jml: juju-jitsu
[13:48] <SpamapS> jml: its in the PPA.. little helpers
[13:48] <m_3> SpamapS: ah, nevermind... that hasn't been merged in yet
[13:48] <jml> SpamapS: I'll take a look.
[13:53] <jml> jitsu has no way of discovering subcommands?
[13:54] <newz2000> Hi, how do we know which we should used, db-relation-joined vs db-relation-changed?
[13:54] <SpamapS> jml: oops, regression.. that used to happen on bare 'jitsu'
[13:54] <newz2000> The tutorial (demoing drupal) uses db-relation-changed but we're not getting the user/pw/db details there, but they do seem to show in relation-joined
[13:55] <m_3> jml: hey, so `debconf-get-selections | grep console-setup` shows lots of options... perhaps you can echo one of these to debconf-set-selections for that package?  not sure the option from your pastebin, but start there
[13:56] <james_w> I find it surprising that console-setup is prompting
[13:56] <m_3> newz2000: joined is fired once, changed is continuously fired on both sides until no more relation-sets are called
[13:56] <james_w> I would have thought it would already be set up in the container
[13:56] <m_3> james_w: yes, me too
[13:56] <newz2000> m_3: if we're configuring our app to talk to the db, which is best?
[13:57] <james_w> as in, I haven't seen it, but maybe jml is installing some obscure packages in the install hook
[13:57] <jml> at this stage, I'm just dist-upgrading precise.
[13:58] <jml> tbh, am a little surprised that there's not a standard recipe for doing so.
[13:58] <m_3> newz2000: often best in changed
[13:58] <m_3> newz2000: make sure you `exit 0` if the other side (db) isn't up yet
[13:58] <newz2000> m_3: ok. We're having a prob where our script is firing one time and has no login credentials
[13:58] <newz2000> m_3: ok. We're still trying to wrap our heads around that part.
[13:58] <james_w> newz2000, you don't always get all the credentials the first time it is called
[13:59] <pindonga> SpamapS, hi there again :) conceptual question about subordinate charms... would it make sense to write an apache-wsgi-app subordinate charm that you can configure with options (wsgi file, apache config, etc) (so that it can be reused by any "web appserver" charm without having to rewrite the apache config stuff?
[13:59] <james_w> pindonga, it would
[13:59] <m_3> newz2000: it's up to the particular interface, but the usual story is the db gets the other side's hostname, then creates databases and creds, then does a relation-set on that
[13:59] <pindonga> SpamapS, basically what I'm looking for is something similar to the chef recipes concept
[13:59] <pindonga> or james_w ^ :)
[13:59] <m_3> newz2000: so the first time the app gets a relation-get from the db is in changed
[13:59] <newz2000> james_w, m_3, interesting. We seem to only be running one time. Maybe that's because we're not doing exit 0 right
[13:59] <jml> https://bugs.launchpad.net/charm-tools/+bug/1015575 filed also
[13:59] <_mup_> Bug #1015575: Error running 'charm help' without arguments <Juju Charm Tools:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015575 >
[13:59] <m_3> newz2000: gets a _non-empty_ relation-get :)
[14:00] <james_w> pindonga, I don't think there's all that much benefit to it if it is apache-specific though
[14:00] <jml> grr. 'nother meeting.
[14:00] <newz2000> m_3: ok. We don't understand it yet but we may be about there. Thanks, will pester you again in a bit
[14:00] <m_3> newz2000: not sure...  have to see the code
[14:00] <m_3> newz2000: sure
[14:01] <james_w> pindonga, but it's certainly a valid use of subordinates IMO
[14:02] <pindonga> james_w, well, the benefit would be write once read many
[14:02] <pindonga> :)
[14:02] <pindonga> don't see how you can do this in a webserver agnostic way
[14:02] <SpamapS> pindonga: wsgi is pretty webserver agnostic isn't it?
[14:03] <m_3> james_w: I've thought of this the other way around... the django app being subordinate to an apache-wsgi app... but it's probably the same diff
[14:03] <james_w> m_3, right, that's what I thought pindonga meant, but either way would work
[14:04] <SpamapS> another reason it would still be useful if it is apache specific is that many of them can be written, and then as apache improves, the users see those improvements
[14:05] <pindonga> james_w, wsgi is, but you still need an apache-modwsgi one
[14:05] <hazmat> pindonga, i tend to think things like wsgi containers are best left to the charm not a subordinate.. the charm has to pick one to be functional anyways.
[14:05] <pindonga> so apache-modwsgi is probably the right combination for a subordinate
[14:05] <pindonga> hazmat, the idea was to avoid repeating commonly performed stuff
[14:06] <james_w> pindonga, you could have a "wsgi" interface, which your app would provide, and then the apache charm could require that interface to serve your app via wsgi
[14:06] <pindonga> every app server that you deploy using apache+modwsgi follows the same steps
[14:06] <hazmat> pindonga, anyways.. that's my op.. there's also a gunicorn subordinate
[14:06] <pindonga> except for the config itself
[14:06] <m_3> james_w: like that
[14:06] <james_w> or nginx could require the interface
[14:06] <pindonga> james_w, interesting
[14:06] <hazmat> pindonga, http://jujucharms.com/~patrick-hetu/precise/gunicorn
[14:07] <SpamapS> hazmat: but without inheritance, we have no way to improve general apache+wsgi charms other than subordinate/primary relationships
[14:07] <m_3> similarly for a 'rack' interface
[14:07] <pindonga> james_w, so apache would be a subordinate charm to my app, in that case right?
[14:07] <james_w> pindonga, other way around
[14:07] <pindonga> as I need it to be deployed in the same container
[14:07] <SpamapS> I think we will eventually see charm inheritance, and thats how this will work
[14:07] <pindonga> james_w, if it's the other way, would I then juju deploy apache? (/me is at a loss)
[14:08] <pindonga> SpamapS,+1
[14:08] <SpamapS> you'll just write  'my-sexy-django-app' which extends: django-app which extends: apache-wsgi-app
[14:08] <james_w> the basics would be "wsgi script, working dir, user, processes, threads"
[14:08] <m_3> can't wait for that
[14:08] <SpamapS> funny juju might be the first language ti implement interfaces *before* inheritance
[14:08] <james_w> which is pretty webserver-agnostic, any any extras would require something else
[14:08]  * SpamapS hits the rimshot button
[14:08] <hazmat> SpamapS, inheritance doesn't quite feel write either, ie. i don't want anything using apache mod wsgi, so perhaps subordinates give the choice..
[14:09] <hazmat> s/right
[14:09] <hazmat> at least for my personal env deploys
[14:09] <james_w> pindonga, yeah, juju deploy apache, then juju deploy your app as a subordinate of apache, related using the wsgi interface
[14:09] <SpamapS> hazmat: we need to *end* this idea that personal preference is a good idea in ops
[14:10] <SpamapS> hazmat: there's a best way. Thats the way the charm works.
[14:10] <SpamapS> Measure it
[14:10] <m_3> pindonga: it'd be `juju deploy --config=wsgi.yaml apache; juju deploy --config=myapp.yaml django; juju add-relation apache:wsgi django`
[14:10] <SpamapS> implement it
[14:10] <SpamapS> and stop this nonsense that op A and op B can both be "right"
[14:10] <hazmat> SpamapS, and patch security ;-)
[14:10] <hazmat> ie maintain it
[14:11] <SpamapS> I'm just saying.. the idea with the charm store is that we all can actually agree on the best way to do WSGI apps
[14:11] <hazmat> SpamapS, i agree, but unfortunately my best way is not the same as everyone elses ;-)
[14:11] <hazmat> SpamapS, gunicorn + nginx
[14:11] <hazmat> or gunicorn + varnish
[14:12] <SpamapS> right, the charm should just pick one
[14:12] <SpamapS> what matter is it how my wsgi app works.. somebody else who cares more about that figured it out. :)
[14:12]  * SpamapS said pantomiming a hypothetical wsgi app developer
[14:12] <m_3> with a beret
[14:13]  * SpamapS cues the bass and snare
[14:13] <newz2000> m_3: (or anyone) we could use some help with this /cc fugue88
[14:13] <newz2000> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1050957/
[14:13]  * hazmat turns up the django
[14:14] <newz2000> it's not successfully running syncdb, (line 45)
[14:14] <newz2000> and it's also not re-running
[14:14] <james_w> newz2000, I'd check -n $password too
[14:14] <m_3> newz2000: so that's `db-relation-changed` right?
[14:14] <newz2000> m_3: yes
[14:15] <newz2000> and we did actually get it working so that it gets to line 46
[14:15] <newz2000> 45
[14:15] <hazmat> newz2000, are you installing django via packages or virtualenv?
[14:15] <newz2000> and then it stops and doesn't retry
[14:15] <Beret> m_3, hey now, leave berets out of it!
[14:15] <m_3> perhaps around line 6 you should bail if
[14:15] <hazmat> :-)
[14:15] <m_3> haha
[14:15] <newz2000> hazmat: package
[14:15] <m_3> Beret: sorry :)
[14:15] <Beret> :)
[14:15] <james_w> newz2000, do you know what it errors with?
[14:15] <newz2000> james_w: yes...
[14:15] <james_w> newz2000, also, are you adding this to the existing graphite charm?
[14:16] <m_3> newz2000: perhaps around line 6 you should put an other-side's-not-up guard?... lemme finish reading
[14:16] <newz2000> psycopg2.OperationalError: could not connect to server: Connection refused
[14:16] <newz2000>         Is the server running on host "<IP_ADDRESS>" and accepting
[14:16] <newz2000>         TCP/IP connections on port 5432?
[14:16] <fugue88> m_3: What would we do in that guard?  Busy-wait?
[14:16] <m_3> newz2000: nevermind
[14:16] <newz2000> james_w: we're doing an exercise to learn charming (ISD team srpint)
[14:16] <newz2000> we made this charm yesterday, now adding db relationship to it
[14:17] <newz2000> (it works fine when using local sqlite)
[14:17] <james_w> I wouldn't have started with graphite :-)
[14:17] <newz2000> james_w: +1
[14:17] <james_w> newz2000, why are you writing the credentials to /local_settings.py too?
[14:17] <newz2000> debugging
[14:17] <james_w> ok
[14:18] <newz2000> Interestingly, if we do juju ssh … then run syncdb without changing anything, it works fine.
[14:19] <fugue88> Under what circumstances, exactly, will juju retry a hook?  One part of the docs seems to indicate that if the hook exits non-0, it will be retried.  We don't see that.  Another part states that updating relation settings and exiting 0 will cause a retry.  We could do that, but we don't really have any settings we *need* to communicate to the other side of the relation.
[14:19] <newz2000> btw, fugue88 and I are pair programming this
[14:19] <fugue88> Also, the docs aren't clear about *what* will be retried.  Only the *other* side, or both sides?
[14:20] <m_3> fugue88: the relation hooks keep re-firing as long as either side keeps relation-set'ing
[14:20] <fugue88> m_3: If side A relation-set's, both A's hook and B's hook will be retried?
[14:20] <m_3> fugue88: any non-zero exit from a relation at any time will just error out the relation (I think)
[14:21] <james_w> fugue88, if they exit non-zero they won't be retried until a human intervenes
[14:21] <fugue88> Good to know about the non-0.
[14:21] <james_w> fugue88, if a relation-set is done then any relation-changed hooks will be fired for any relations that aren't in an error state
[14:21] <fugue88> Great!
[14:21] <james_w> fugue88, I don't believe anything just gets "retried"
[14:21] <m_3> fugue88: A relation-sets, then B fires and relation-gets... if B doesn't relation-set, then A will not be fired again
[14:21] <fugue88> Oh.
[14:21] <fugue88> Not great.
[14:22] <james_w> fugue88, as in, you exit 0 early if the data you need isn't there yet, on the assumption that the data will be set later
[14:22] <newz2000> is thre a convention for a relation-set to happen that indicates I'm not connecting, tell me when to try again?
[14:22] <fugue88> So, if the relation data is there, but the other side isn't actually ready, we'll need to busy-wait in the hook.
[14:22] <james_w> so if you relation-get user and it is "" then you exit 0 on the assumption that the other side hasn't done relation-set user yet
[14:22] <james_w> then when it does that relation-changed will be called again
[14:23] <james_w> fugue88, the other side shouldn't set all the data until is is up
[14:23] <m_3> if the other side takes an hour.. and _then_ relation-sets... you'll get run again
[14:23] <james_w> or it should make sure to do a relation-set when it is up
[14:23] <fugue88> james_w: Okay, we might take have to take a look at the postgresql charm.
[14:24] <fugue88> Thanks!
[14:24] <james_w> but there's nothing that will cope well if there is a network hiccup during relation-changed
[14:24] <m_3> this dance is different with different "interfaces"... pgsql creates the db and creds on the first join... then just hands it back
[14:24] <m_3> newz2000: one thing to look at is the pg_hba.conf on the pg side
[14:24] <newz2000> m_3: we have no prob connecting after it fails
[14:24] <fugue88> hba is fine in this case.
[14:25] <fugue88> Or, I should say...
[14:25] <fugue88> becomes fine.
[14:25]  * SpamapS wishes he could focus fully on this discussion right now
[14:25] <m_3> ok cool... we've had problems setting that correctly in the past
[14:25] <fugue88> Maybe a delay where the pg charm sets the relation stuff before HUP'ing postgres has finished.
[14:25] <fugue88> We'll look.
[14:26] <SpamapS> fugue88: you can do relation-set's and relation-get's for other unrelated relationships, you don't have to busy wait
[14:27] <SpamapS> fugue88: so if you're in a relationship that gets a change, and you don't have some other relationship established yet that you need to send that data down or use it for something.. you can just defer
[14:27] <SpamapS> fugue88: right now that deferring is manual.. but its fairly straight forward how to do it. In the future I think we'll have a way to tell juju "defer this hook" and it will just retry it again
[14:28] <m_3> fugue88 newz2000: the pg charm is basic... please help improve it!  i.e., great project post-sprint would be to add in pg9 replication :)
[14:28] <newz2000> m_3: you're speaking our language
[14:28] <newz2000> we're testing now, if we get it working as we think it will then we'll look at that charm next
[14:28]  * SpamapS goes afk bbiab
[14:29] <SpamapS> please lets continue this discussion later though
[14:29] <SpamapS> killing me to go right now!
[14:29] <newz2000> ok, we have it working
[14:29] <newz2000> we put an until syncdb sleep 1 in there
[14:30] <newz2000> and it works, so that implies the charm needs to be a bit smarter
[14:30] <m_3> hmmmm
[14:31] <m_3> newz2000: hey, so why do you exit 0 on syncdb fail?  that seems like a real error condition and should fail the relation
[14:31] <newz2000> m_3: that was a misunderstanding of the docs on our part. We thought exit 0 meant it would get tried again soon.
[14:31] <m_3> ah gotcha
[14:32] <newz2000> we think that could be a bit clear. :-)
[14:32] <newz2000> clearer
[14:32] <m_3> yup... merging docs today as a matter of fact
[14:33] <newz2000> m_3: what is the best way to get the postgres charm in order to propose a patch (if we're able to improve it)?
[14:33] <m_3> newz2000 fugue88: btw, please take meta notes about stuff like that... how we can improve the learning process.
[14:33] <newz2000> ok
[14:35] <m_3> newz2000: just branch it to a personal branch... then propose for merging.  the source is lp:charms/postgresql and your personal branch should be in the format of lp:~<lp-id>/charms/precise/postgresql/<some-branch-name>
[14:35] <newz2000> m_3: cool
[14:46] <m_3> newz2000: you might check to see if we did anything special for syncdb timing in lp:~mark-mims/charms/oneiric/summit/trunk ( derived from lp:~michael.nelson/charms/oneiric/apache-django-wsgi/trunk ).  It might've just been that running other manage.py commands added the necessary delay accidentally
[14:46] <newz2000> m_3: ok
[14:46] <newz2000> we've found at least one potential optimization for this charm
[14:47] <m_3> newz2000: that's definitely a best practice... get it talking then iterate
[14:48] <jcastro> m_3: if you could find time to review this today I can totally remove that wiki page: https://code.launchpad.net/~jorge/juju/add-charm-store/+merge/110854
[14:49] <m_3> jcastro: sure thing... I'll bump that up to do it next
[15:00] <m_3> SpamapS: when you get a chance, let's talk about what to do with charms that could be both a primary or a sub... seems silly to fork if the only change is `subordinate: true`
[15:02] <m_3> or at least let's put it on the policy todo list
[15:18]  * imbrandon returns
[15:18] <imbrandon> wow leave for an hour and yall start a party :)
[15:27] <imbrandon> hazmat: ~juju/juju/docs is not right it should be lp:juju/docs
[15:28] <imbrandon> where you keep moving merge proposals, but that branch is very old and owned by ~juju-hackers and not what is built from
[15:36] <_mup_> Bug #1015637 was filed: Allow one charm to be either a primary or a subordinate service <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015637 >
[15:40] <newz2000> m_3: improvement to the postgresql charm: https://code.launchpad.net/~dsowen/charms/precise/postgresql/reload/+merge/111247
[15:41] <newz2000> works for us
[15:41] <newz2000> m_3: also, I think the reason you didn't experience our issue with the summit charm is because you're doing enough work in your hook to not notice the delay for postgresql to restart
[15:42] <imbrandon> mornin newz2000
[15:42] <newz2000> howdy imbrandon
[15:43] <hazmat> imbrandon, those are the same
[15:43] <hazmat> imbrandon, the former is the actual target , the later an alias to it
[15:44] <imbrandon> hazmat: nah
[15:44] <imbrandon> hazmat: Diff against target:3147 lines (+2411/-174) 48 files modified
[15:44] <imbrandon> is the former
[15:44] <imbrandon> and actually its a 1 file change with 100ish loc
[15:45] <imbrandon> it might should be , but its not
[15:45] <imbrandon> but if it should be then it needs to be owned by ~charm-contributors too not ~juju-hackers
[15:51] <m_3> newz2000: cool thanks!  processing the queue today, so I should get it into the store version
[15:52] <imbrandon> hazmat: @see https://code.launchpad.net/~jorge/juju/add-charm-store/+merge/111250
[15:52] <_mup_> Bug #1015644 was filed: Users told when deploy actually completes <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015644 >
[15:52] <_mup_> Bug #1015645 was filed: juju set not firing config-changed when passed a yaml file <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015645 >
[15:52] <newz2000> m_3: cool
[15:52] <imbrandon> Diff against target:156 lines (+140/-0) 2 files modified
[15:53] <m_3> can somebody verify Bug #1015645 when you get a chance pls?
[15:53] <_mup_> Bug #1015645: juju set not firing config-changed when passed a yaml file <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015645 >
[15:53] <m_3> make sure I'm not going nuts
[15:53] <surgemcgee> Sure am getting this alot -->
[15:53] <surgemcgee> operation timeout 2012-06-20 11:53:01,900 ERROR operation timeout
[15:53] <surgemcgee> juju debug-log
[15:55] <_mup_> Bug #1015649 was filed: "Unable to create file storage for environment" on 'juju bootstrap' in LXC environment <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015649 >
[15:56] <imbrandon> hazmat or jcastro can you delete the first merge proposals ? i dont have access to
[15:58] <m_3> imbrandon: are these for docs?
[15:59] <imbrandon> m_3: yea i was fixing a merge proposal for jorge and going over the target with hazmat
[15:59] <SpamapS> m_3: back
[15:59] <m_3> imbrandon: i.e., please let me know if any MPs in the queue need to be ignored
[15:59] <SpamapS> m_3: whats an example of a charm that is primary or sub?
[15:59] <m_3> SpamapS: juju for one
[15:59] <SpamapS> err?
[15:59] <imbrandon> SpamapS: mysql
[16:00] <SpamapS> imbrandon: that is a placement issue, not primary/sub
[16:00] <m_3> I use it all the time and've copied it out to juju and juju-standalone
[16:00] <SpamapS> m_3: can you be more clear?
[16:00] <m_3> SpamapS: juju is a lxc container installer
[16:00] <m_3> lp:charms/juju
[16:00] <m_3> sorry for the "who's on first" aspect of that :)
[16:01] <m_3> SpamapS: I test lxc by spinning up the 'juju' charm in ec2
[16:01] <m_3> SpamapS:  but I also do classrooms by subbing juju to byobu-classroom
[16:02] <m_3> SpamapS: and charmtesting is migrating to be just some jenkins stuff with a juju sub for testing
[16:02] <_mup_> Bug #1015654 was filed: debug-log over-rates severity of stderr output <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015654 >
[16:02] <imbrandon> m_3: what about juju on ubuntu
[16:02] <m_3> imbrandon: right
[16:02] <m_3> meta meta
[16:03] <imbrandon> heh , kinda funy to say but yea
[16:03]  * m_3 is thinking of "Duuuude"... "Sweeeet"... but what does it say?
[16:03] <imbrandon> heh
[16:03] <SpamapS> m_3: right, so I think the answer here is "runtime subordination"
[16:03] <SpamapS> m_3: we need to add a simple  --subordinate to deploy
[16:03] <_mup_> Bug #1015655 was filed: Repeated blank lines during debug-log output <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015655 >
[16:03] <m_3> SpamapS: actually to be more precise, juju isn't an lxc container installer... it's a juju client.. env is a config param
[16:04] <m_3> SpamapS: yeah, I'd _love_ that
[16:04] <SpamapS> m_3: we can of course fake that w/ jitsu, but this seems simple and straight forward and worth discussing w/ the juju core dev team.
[16:05] <m_3> SpamapS: yeah, that's why I filed it as a real bug... it's really worth it for users going forward
[16:05] <imbrandon> m_3: re-ignoring one , 110854
[16:05] <imbrandon> i just cant change the status , its superceeded
[16:05] <SpamapS> Of course.. the original --with and --in ideas would have handled this wonderfully. :-P
[16:06] <m_3> imbrandon: looking
[16:06] <m_3> SpamapS: true
[16:06] <_mup_> Bug #1015657 was filed: write-charm doesn't mention the need to bump version numbers when iterating charms <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015657 >
[16:07] <imbrandon> brb nephew showed up, but its superceeded by 111250
[16:07] <imbrandon> m_3: ^^
[16:07] <m_3> imbrandon: whoah... that's the one jorge was just asking me to fasttrack
[16:07] <imbrandon> yea it was targets wrong
[16:07] <imbrandon> 111250 is correct
[16:07] <imbrandon> and the same merge
[16:08] <imbrandon> see hows its 156loc , thats what it should be
[16:08] <imbrandon> :)
[16:08] <imbrandon> brb
[16:08] <jml> oh hey, there's a bug announce bot.
[16:08] <jml> just filed bugs based on my IRC backlog in case any of you wanted to keep track on what was causing me to stumble.
[16:09]  * jml has to go now
[16:09] <jml> looking forward to getting this darn thing deploying soon.
[16:09] <m_3> imbrandon: ok, I see that one
[16:09] <m_3> imbrandon: thanks
[16:09] <SpamapS> damn
[16:09] <SpamapS> so I missed all the good stuff?
[16:09] <SpamapS> :(
[16:10] <m_3> SpamapS: sounds like newz2000 and fugue88 got django working... and have some updates for pgsql!
[16:11] <SpamapS> great!
[16:11]  * m_3 is hoping somebody who knows something about pgsql can be the maintainer at some point
[16:11] <newz2000> SpamapS: yes, we've got graphite, a Django app running
[16:11] <SpamapS> I'm working on writing up the charm store policy in a .rst document today
[16:11] <newz2000> pgsql obviously hasn't gotten the same level of love that mysql has
[16:11] <SpamapS> newz2000: heh, are you saying mysql looks a little.. used? ;)
[16:12] <newz2000> well, it is on rev 121 vs 17 for pg. :-)
[16:12] <m_3> newz2000: yeah, I wrote it by default... never used pgsql except for playing around
[16:12] <newz2000> we're moving to use juju more and more in ISD and we deploy with pg whever possible.
[16:12] <newz2000> So I suspect it will mature
[16:12] <m_3> newz2000: I was always mysql (and sqlserver, but shhhhhh)
[16:12] <SpamapS> newz2000: I imagine the most important addition you guys can make would be a pgsql-shared interface so django apps can share a db instead of having the db named after the service
[16:13] <m_3> and then replication :)
[16:13] <m_3> that's huge and missing
[16:13] <newz2000> ok, I'll keep that in mind.
[16:14] <newz2000> Tomorrow is SSO charm writing and it will use pg as well.
[16:14] <m_3> then externalizing performance tweaks into the charm config
[16:14] <m_3> (that might be an easy change to start with)
[16:14] <SpamapS> isn't there a new scale-out pgsql that was published recently?
[16:14] <SpamapS> m_3: indeed, it needs similar tuning capabilities to the mysql charm
[16:14] <m_3> SpamapS: afaik there were several solutions in pg pre-9 but now a standard one in 9
[16:15] <SpamapS> I really wish add-unit on the mysql charm did something useful... like throw up galera replication automatically
[16:15] <SpamapS> m_3: No, something better than even that
[16:15] <SpamapS> hazmat: whats the new pgsql cluster thing?
[16:19] <hazmat> SpamapS, postgres-xc
[16:19] <hazmat> SpamapS, its not ha though
[16:19] <hazmat> its linear scaling
[16:20] <hazmat> but since its shared nothing, you need backups of each member of the cluster
[16:20] <SpamapS> Postgres-XC (eXtensible Cluster) is a multi-master write-scalable PostgreSQL cluster based on shared-nothing architecture
[16:20] <SpamapS> sounds HA to me
[16:20] <hazmat> SpamapS, shared nothing, no replication
[16:20] <SpamapS> so it doesn't do the HA..
[16:21] <SpamapS> but it would be trivial to make it HA
[16:21] <SpamapS> its RAID0 ..
[16:21] <SpamapS> replication is RAID1
[16:21] <SpamapS> so.. we need a postgresql-raid10 :)
[16:21] <imbrandon> heh
[16:21] <hazmat> SpamapS, re pg we should focus on streaming replication options
[16:21] <hazmat> postgres-xc is a different beast
[16:21] <SpamapS> hazmat: I want both
[16:21] <SpamapS> We should be able to do XC as a peer relation, and streaming replication as a provides/requires
[16:21] <imbrandon> just use mysql and be done :)
[16:22] <hazmat> SpamapS, me too.. but since we have neither.. we should get pg doing something decent first.. since its actually used by many.
[16:22] <SpamapS> its used by nobody right now
[16:22] <SpamapS> in the context of juju :)
[16:22] <SpamapS> (unless people are adopting juju in secret)
[16:22] <hazmat> SpamapS, who uses that ? ;-)
[16:23] <imbrandon> heh actually there are, i see tweets about internal juju deployments all the time
[16:23] <hazmat> anyways.. i'd vote for spiffing up the pg charm with replication first.
[16:23] <hazmat> but the do-ers have vetoes
[16:33]  * hazmat lunches
[16:39] <imbrandon> hazmat: so how should we fix the docs targets, looking at the review queue, they are all targeted wrong
[16:40] <hazmat> imbrandon, i'm not clear that their broken
[16:41] <hazmat> imbrandon, this one is correct.. https://code.launchpad.net/~jorge/juju/add-charm-store/+merge/111250
[16:41] <hazmat> but i guess you fixed it
[16:41] <hazmat> imbrandon, so in general on those we should repropose
[16:41] <imbrandon> yea thats thje only one
[16:41] <hazmat> that's what i've been doing in the past
[16:41] <imbrandon> ok cool, just wasent sure
[16:42] <imbrandon> i can do that for those in the que now
[16:42] <hazmat> it takes too long to ask the original sometimes to do so, just note in the merge proposal.. the review queue still shows the correct origin person/branch
[16:42] <hazmat> imbrandon, if its in the review queue it should be correct..
[16:42] <imbrandon> yea
[16:42] <imbrandon> no
[16:42] <hazmat> hmm..
[16:42] <hazmat> so this one https://code.launchpad.net/~jorge/juju/add-charm-store/+merge/110854
[16:42] <imbrandon> there is alot un the queue wrong, infact the one you showed me that i fixed is the only right one
[16:43] <imbrandon> yea, see the huge diff
[16:43] <hazmat> imbrandon, but its correctly done
[16:43] <hazmat> imbrandon, its a branch of docs targeting docs
[16:43] <imbrandon> ~juju/juju/docs isnt a failed branch and needs removed
[16:44] <imbrandon> it dont point anywhere
[16:44] <hazmat> oh..
[16:44]  * hazmat gets it now
[16:44] <hazmat> imbrandon, right
[16:44] <imbrandon> yea :)
[16:44] <hazmat> the lp:juju/docs doesn't point there anymore it goes to ~charm-contributors/juju/docs
[16:44] <_mup_> Bug #1015682 was filed: docs... 'make text' fails <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015682 >
[16:44] <imbrandon> ahh ok, that makes sense
[16:45] <imbrandon> ok sooo ...
[16:45] <imbrandon> heh
[16:46] <hazmat> so we should correct ones that show up like that hopefully not too many.. they won't show  up in the review queue unless they target 'docs'.. i need to grab my takeout, bbiab
[16:46] <imbrandon> kk
[16:47] <imbrandon> m_3: make text works here
[16:47] <imbrandon> toctree is part of sphinx, do you have a really old version ?
[16:48] <imbrandon> 1.1.3 i see , hrm
[16:48] <imbrandon> oh thast ~juju/juju/docs
[16:48] <imbrandon> m_3: wrong branch
[16:50] <m_3> imbrandon: huh
[16:50] <m_3> imbrandon: that bug was against trunk bzr10... before any merges
[16:51] <imbrandon> yea thats a really old bzr branch
[16:51] <imbrandon> we're on like bzr39
[16:51] <imbrandon> or something
[16:51] <imbrandon> ~charm-contributors/juju/docs
[16:53] <imbrandon> m_3: all these merge proposals are targeting the wrong bzr branch by mistake, they should target ~charm-contributors/juju/docs or lp:juju/docs , not ~juju/juju/docs
[16:53] <m_3> imbrandon: ah, ok... I was starting from the oldest MPs and going forward
[16:53] <m_3> imbrandon: thanks
[16:53] <imbrandon> yea no matter what the MP says do it against lp:juju/docs
[16:53] <m_3> gotcha
[16:53] <imbrandon> and it should be correct
[16:54]  * imbrandon is trying to get it all streight :)
[17:18] <SpamapS> we should fix all the warnings on the juju docs
[17:18] <_mup_> Bug #1015704 was filed: docs:  empty the drafts folder on production <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015704 >
[17:18] <SpamapS> :make html in vim has quite a lot to say ;)
[17:22] <imbrandon> never tried it in vim, but yea that was one of my goals SpamapS , over time :)
[17:22] <imbrandon> 146ish of them or something
[17:23] <SpamapS> imbrandon: hey, the new theme.. it doesn't have any way to navigate sections
[17:23] <SpamapS> imbrandon: thats pretty vital, you adding it back in?
[17:23] <imbrandon> i thought of that, and am looking at it
[17:24] <imbrandon> was actaully what i was doiing now
[17:25] <imbrandon> dident seem to be missing that much tho honestly, after looking it over more, but yea i'm testing diffrent ways now
[17:25] <imbrandon> SpamapS: you are talking about this http://www.assets-online.com/docs/juju/index.html
[17:26] <imbrandon> right ?
[17:26] <SpamapS> no
[17:26] <SpamapS> imbrandon: the thing thats being built right now in lp:juju/docs
[17:26] <imbrandon> oh then yea, i added the tree back in
[17:26] <SpamapS> unless thats been updated
[17:26] <imbrandon> its been updated
[17:26] <SpamapS> I haven't pulled in a day or two
[17:26] <SpamapS> well then YAY
[17:26] <imbrandon> check that link, thats what it will look like next build
[17:27] <SpamapS> imbrandon: awesome!
[17:27] <SpamapS> imbrandon: wait, still no sections
[17:27] <imbrandon> i thought it was building every 15 minutes but somethign is broken or it isnt
[17:27] <SpamapS> thats the toc
[17:28] <SpamapS> I need the sections of the document
[17:28] <imbrandon> yea and thats what i was refering to as i was working with right now to add in somehow
[17:29] <imbrandon> but reeally there is one or two toc items that really need it, and i'm wondering if they dont need broken up instread
[17:29] <m_3> SpamapS: fixing some warnings now
[17:29] <imbrandon> but yea working on it now
[17:30] <m_3> imbrandon: if you're playing with layout you probably should be doing that on a separate feature branch and not trunk
[17:30] <imbrandon> SpamapS: see https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/faq.html sections there
[17:30] <SpamapS> imbrandon: yeah, thats pretty awful. ;)
[17:31] <SpamapS> and agreed
[17:31] <imbrandon> m_3: layout is done, just a one char change to add sections but yea
[17:31] <SpamapS> playing on trunk is a no-no
[17:32] <m_3> so what do we do right now... I'm halfway through a stack of merges
[17:32] <m_3> should I stop and let trunk settle?
[17:32] <imbrandon> no
[17:32] <imbrandon> i am no pushing anything
[17:32] <m_3> or keep going and let imbrandon deal with conflicts
[17:32] <imbrandon> yea go go, i'm off in my world
[17:32] <m_3> imbrandon: ok
[17:32] <imbrandon> i'll fix it if you step on my toes accidently
[17:32] <imbrandon> :)
[17:33] <imbrandon> but yea its just one char change to add sections back in, but i'm working localy etc etc thus the assets-online domain to visualize
[17:33] <imbrandon> etc
[17:34] <imbrandon> so yea dont pay me no mind m_3 go go
[17:37] <imbrandon> SpamapS: btw uploading nginx+spdy to ppa here in a few
[17:37] <imbrandon> have it all working
[17:37] <koolhead17> bkerensa_, around
[17:38] <SpamapS> imbrandon: nice, so then we can just add an 'nginx-website' interface that lets subs drop a file in /etc/nginx/sites-enabled, and away we go?
[17:38] <imbrandon> yup basicly
[17:39] <SpamapS> imbrandon: I love that. That should make scaling *php* quite easy. :)
[17:39] <bkerensa_> koolhead17: sup?
[18:14] <imbrandon> SpamapS: how do you squash a commit in bzr ?
[18:15] <SpamapS> imbrandon: bzr uncommit
[18:15] <SpamapS> imbrandon: though that will make your branch diverge
[18:15] <imbrandon> erm
[18:15] <imbrandon> not good
[18:16] <imbrandon> i just really want to append to the last commit
[18:16] <SpamapS> imbrandon: if you just want something like git revert, I believe you just do it like svn and reverse merge
[18:17] <lifeless> imbrandon: SpamapS: squash makes git branches fiverge too :)
[18:17] <lifeless> imbrandon: uncommit is the right thing, long as its a local branch vs e.g. trunk.
[18:17] <SpamapS> oh is squash something in git ??
[18:17] <imbrandon> yea
[18:17] <SpamapS> Ok, never used it
[18:17] <lifeless> SpamapS: http://365git.tumblr.com/post/4364212086/git-merge-squash
[18:17] <SpamapS> still fighting tooth and nail to not have to learn git until the rest of the world sucks me in. :-P
[18:18] <imbrandon> heh, hey now i'm _trying_ with bzr :)
[18:18] <imbrandon> lol
[18:19] <imbrandon> ok so i want my working copy uncommited changes added to my last commit
[18:19] <imbrandon> uncommit is the right thing ?
[18:19] <hazmat> just add a new commit
[18:20] <imbrandon> heh yea, sounds like it
[18:20] <lifeless> imbrandon: yes, uncommit will pop off the commit and not change your working copy at all.
[18:20] <lifeless> imbrandon: then you can commit again, and everything gets saved
[18:20] <imbrandon> k
[18:20] <hazmat> bzr doesn't want to support the whole rewrite commit history workflow..
[18:20] <lifeless> hazmat: well
[18:20] <hazmat> for good reason..
[18:20] <hazmat> lifeless, i know.. it can.
[18:20] <lifeless> hazmat: thats not strictly true.
[18:21] <hazmat> but that's not the intended usage model
[18:21] <imbrandon> yea ... with great power ... bah , adding commit
[18:21] <imbrandon> ;)
[18:21] <hazmat> lifeless, are you saying it does want to support it.. or just noting that it can?
[18:22] <lifeless> hazmat: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2009q2/059263.html
[18:23] <hazmat> lifeless, incidentally do you know if the multi branch in single dir support in bzr work is basically on hold?
[18:23] <lifeless> hazmat: 3-mumble years ago I analysed the tasks users need to do with their VCS w.r.t. history management and came to the conclusion that editory editing is a core facility for a VCS
[18:24] <lifeless> hazmat: the team are currently holding the fort for maintenance across the LP portfolio, so yes. Patches would be loved - it works but needs some UI polish basically.
[18:25] <lifeless> hazmat: I would, if doing the analysis now, create and reference some personas, to make it more concrete.
[18:25] <lifeless> but I think the conclusions owuld have been the same. I wish I'd pushed harder subsequent to that doc, now.
[18:26] <hazmat> lifeless, thanks for the link, digesting
[18:31] <SpamapS> http://spamaps.org/files/charm-store-policy/policy.html
[18:31] <SpamapS> A rough draft, for your reading pleasure
[18:32] <hazmat> ideally we expand the toc tree out on the current section
[18:32] <hazmat> and that goes under charms
[18:32] <imbrandon> hazmat: just poposed that merge
[18:32] <imbrandon> https://code.launchpad.net/~imbrandon/juju/docs/+merge/111281
[18:32] <imbrandon> :)
[18:32] <hazmat> imbrandon, nice!
[18:32] <SpamapS> imbrandon: hah, that charm-store.rst ... I just took all the 'musts' from that and put them in the policy.rst that I'm working on
[18:33] <imbrandon> heh
[18:33] <imbrandon> and infact m_3 just merged it, he's on it :)
[18:33] <SpamapS> Yeah thats fine, I'll pull them out of it before I commit to trunk
[18:33] <hazmat> doh.. here i was bothering to approve it ;-)
[18:34]  * SpamapS grabs lunch
[18:34] <imbrandon> :)
[18:34] <imbrandon> SpamapS: thats still i good idea i think
[18:35]  * imbrandon gets food as well
[18:35]  * m_3 too
[18:39] <jcastro> m_3: I didn't even notice the drafts folder, heh
[18:46] <lifeless> hazmat: checking you got my reply; maybe I'm not signed in to freenode or something
[18:47] <hazmat> lifeless, just saw it now
[18:49] <lifeless> cool
[18:57] <m_3> bcsaller: yo
[18:58] <bcsaller> m_3: hey
[18:58] <m_3> bcsaller: hey, so in lp:juju/docs
[18:58] <m_3> there's a drafts/subordinate-internals.rst
[18:59] <m_3> that's referencing a relative path subordinate-services.rst
[18:59] <m_3> but the latter got moved to toplevel
[18:59] <m_3> can you please tell me what should go where?  and/or give me a branch?
[19:00] <m_3> happy to file a bug if you'd rather... just trying to clean docs up today
[19:00] <bcsaller> m_3: internals are just impl details, the other sub-serv is the user facing doc
[19:00] <m_3> should the draft/sub-internals be moved to internals/?
[19:00] <bcsaller> m_3: yeah, now that its in trunk it should
[19:00] <m_3> i.e., is any of that still WIP or is it all released?
[19:00] <m_3> ok cool
[19:01] <m_3> gracias!
[19:01] <bcsaller> :)
[19:05] <robbiew> jcastro: yo...dumb/out-of-touch question...where are we hosting the juju client rpms?  Is the plan still to leverage the OpenSUSE Build Service?
[19:05] <jcastro> https://github.com/jujutools/rpm-juju
[19:05] <imbrandon> robbiew: github atm , on the same group as osx forumula , and yes
[19:05] <imbrandon> :)
[19:07] <robbiew> imbrandon: heh...thanks jcastro2.0
[19:07] <imbrandon> i'm happy to shift things arround if a better spot is deemed , just figured i'd keep the "ports" togather
[19:07] <robbiew> imbrandon: nah..just curious
[19:08] <robbiew> I know the OBS can build for other distros, so just an "easy" way to support multiple RPM-based clients
[19:08] <imbrandon> yup, even builds right from git, someone sugested it like 5 min after i posted em
[19:08] <imbrandon> i was like erm , nice
[19:09] <imbrandon> infact i should put the OSX and RPM docs in /docs today
[19:09] <jcastro> looks like a nice thing for the next set of builds
[19:09] <jcastro> hmm I dig that new style you guys linked to too
[19:09] <jcastro> also, I'm going to take a crack at that About page in the docs.
[19:09] <imbrandon> :)
[19:10] <jcastro> it's basically the most boring three paragraphs I've ever read in my life.
[19:10] <imbrandon> jcastro: see how i did the front page and you can jaz it up
[19:10] <imbrandon> with plain html
[19:11] <imbrandon> for pictograms and such
[19:11] <m_3> imbrandon: got some other additions to the toc in a sec
[19:11] <imbrandon> m_3: cool, i only had that one merge
[19:11] <m_3> relation stuff
[19:11] <imbrandon> for now
[19:12] <imbrandon> so i'm back hands off for a few, was thinking about combineing the provider config pages and adding the OSX/RPM pages
[19:12] <imbrandon> but i'll do them as merge req's
[19:12] <jcastro> hmm yeah
[19:13] <jcastro> a separate page for OSX and RPMs would be useful
[19:13] <m_3> we had some stuff in drafts that needed to go out toplevel
[19:13] <imbrandon> yea basicly the info i have on the github pages
[19:13] <m_3> then it needs just overall love
[19:13] <imbrandon> :)
[19:13] <m_3> jcastro: yeah, that's a good idea
[19:14] <jcastro> heya hazmat
[19:14] <imbrandon> i'll start a draft for it now, "ports" unless someone has a better name
[19:14] <jcastro> do you have powers to kick off the doc generating cron on demand?
[19:14] <jcastro> like say ... nowish?
[19:16] <jcastro> robbiew: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/ManagingTheCloudFromTheCommandLine.aspx
[19:17] <jcastro> there's a link to the cool node tools for azure btw.
[19:17] <imbrandon> yea their account mgmt on the cli is pretty sweet, i was thinking aobut how to add that to juju-jitsu
[19:17] <robbiew> jcastro: ack, thx
[19:18] <imbrandon> azure import account.json --> jitsu import environments.json :)
[19:18] <imbrandon> SpamapS: ^
[19:19] <jcastro> jI want that kind of syntax for AWS'es tools
[19:19] <jcastro> not "oh in order to make that easy you should grab smoser's scripts from git."
[19:19] <m_3> jcastro: give the doc gen a couple of minutes
[19:20] <jcastro> ok
[19:20] <jcastro> m_3: man, everyone is excited about docs today
[19:20] <jcastro> people must be bored
[19:20] <imbrandon> LOL
[19:21] <imbrandon> its my new sexy theme, well about to be new sexy theme when it builds :)
[19:21]  * imbrandon ducks
[19:25] <hazmat> jcastro, no..
[19:25] <hazmat> jcastro, that's a prod machine run by is
[19:29] <m_3> jcastro: docs were just big on the review queue
[19:29] <m_3> jcastro: yeah, I don't see an obvious way to kick it off from lp
[19:29] <jcastro> it's no biggie I think
[19:30] <m_3> jcastro: well all the queued items are in... please pull and take a look locally when you get a chance.  it still needs love across the board as far as content and organization is concerned
[19:30] <hazmat> jcastro, for a preview its, there is a cron job i can/have poked at http://jujucharms.com/docs
[19:31] <m_3> hazmat: just updated like two minutes ago... poke again after a bit pls
[19:31]  * m_3 back to charms
[19:31] <jcastro> oh cool
[19:31] <hazmat> m_3, just switched out to 10m pulls
[19:32] <jcastro> m_3: I'm hoping for elastic search to make it!
[19:32] <jcastro> though the queue says 11 months
[19:32] <jcastro> I think it's measuring from the bug being filed
[19:32] <jcastro> not the branch being attached
[19:32]  * jcastro goes to file a bug
[19:33] <hazmat> jcastro, not all of the bugs have branches attached..
[19:33] <m_3> jcastro: yeah, it's age of bug
[19:33] <hazmat> some just drop it in the description or a comment
[19:33] <jcastro> right
[19:33] <jcastro> but we don't care to review it unless there's a branch attached
[19:34] <hazmat> imbrandon, one more suggestion for the navtree, make it perm re screen pos, else you can click on it, and loose it if you subnavigate something
[19:34] <jcastro> like if I filed a wishlist a year ago, and someone attaches a branch today, the age should be one day, not one year and one day.
[19:34] <hazmat> jcastro, there is a branch noted on the bug just not attached.. its fairly common
[19:35] <imbrandon> ahh yea, i actually have that in the css and turned it off, wasent sure
[19:35] <imbrandon> hazmat: ^
[19:35] <hazmat> imbrandon, cool, i think its makes sense, that whole area isn't being used, and navtree follows focus makes sense i think
[19:36] <imbrandon> yea, it made some finky flicker tho, but i can fix that i'm sure, i'll toy with it tonight
[19:36] <imbrandon> funky*
[19:36] <hazmat> thanks
[19:37] <m_3> jcastro: yeah, if there's a bug last modified time
[19:38] <m_3> jcastro: otherwise we can make up some sort of time since picked up into the queue
[19:38] <m_3> then that'd catch when it's removed from the queue b/c of status change
[19:38] <m_3> and the clock starts over when the status puts it _back_ in the queue...
[19:39] <jcastro> ok I'll file that
[19:41] <imbrandon> see we could easily make this the front page of juju.u.c tho :)
[19:42] <imbrandon> it really has all the info etc
[19:44] <hazmat> m_3, yeah.. last modified works a bit better
[19:44] <hazmat> m_3, the queue doesn't keep state
[19:45] <hazmat> although modified has its own problems
[19:47] <m_3> right
[19:47] <m_3> it's good enough
[19:52] <imbrandon> hazmat: ohh i see what you mean about the subnav
[19:52] <imbrandon> hrm, thats a bit more tricky
[19:53] <SpamapS> jimbaker: hey, how is jitsu watch supposed to work? I want to wait for agent-state: started ...
[19:53] <imbrandon> because it cant be fixed if you scroll, but needs to be fixed if you click
[19:53] <SpamapS> ahh wait
[19:53] <SpamapS> --state
[19:55] <imbrandon> hazmat: hrm, actually bootstrap scrollspy.js would work i think
[19:55] <jimbaker> SpamapS, correct
[19:55] <jimbaker> which also will apply  --num-units
[19:55] <jimbaker> =1 if you're watching a service
[19:56] <jimbaker> if you're using the latest proposed branch
[19:58] <m_3> SpamapS: --help is pretty verbose
[19:58] <m_3> jitsu watch -h
[19:58]  * m_3 is excited about the test possibilities that opens up
[20:00] <SpamapS> yeah
[20:00] <m_3> jimbaker: I'm curious to see what you did to make it play so nicely with shell signals
[20:00] <SpamapS> we need to be able to wildcard the units
[20:00] <m_3> jimbaker: it responds so nicely to timeout
[20:01] <m_3> jimbaker: I wish we could do the same with some other juju commands (I mess up juju ssh all the time and try to ctrl-c it to no avail)
[20:01] <imbrandon> hahah me too
[20:02] <SpamapS> Isn't that just because the KeyboardInterrupt isn't being handled properly?
[20:02] <SpamapS> need to shutdown the reactor or something
[20:02] <m_3> SpamapS: dunno... thought it was trapping something it shouldn't
[20:04] <SpamapS> imbrandon: is there a way to get sphinx to display arbitrary doc fields in the HTML?
[20:04] <SpamapS> :Version: 0.1
[20:04] <SpamapS> I want to show that
[20:05] <SpamapS> actually I can just dup them into visible text
[20:05] <imbrandon> yea
[20:05] <imbrandon> i think i know what ya mean
[20:06] <imbrandon> gimme example ,but yea, sphinx is like god, i seriously have fallen in love with it, its got some rough spots but yea
[20:06] <imbrandon> and the template syntax is like Twig :)
[20:07] <imbrandon> SpamapS: oh yea for a version
[20:08] <imbrandon> just add it to the conf.py ( look in the html section ) as a option
[20:08] <imbrandon> then use like {{ option_name }}
[20:08] <imbrandon> in the footer or something
[20:09] <imbrandon> you can even do python etc with like .. code:: python
[20:09] <imbrandon> print "blah"
[20:09] <imbrandon> etc
[20:11] <SpamapS> imbrandon: easier to just make it visible as text.. :-P
[20:12] <imbrandon> :)
[20:13] <SpamapS> actually hm, its available as {{ meta['...'] }}
[20:14] <imbrandon> sudo reboot
[20:14] <imbrandon> bah
[20:15] <hazmat> SpamapS, its the ssh subprocess that makes keyboardinteruppt a bit nasty afaicr
[20:15] <SpamapS> hazmat: twisted should handle it in the reactor shutdown, shouldn't it?
[20:15] <SpamapS> or are we just subprocess'ing it directly?
[20:16] <hazmat> not its twistedified
[20:17] <imbrandon> okie, i got way too early of a start today, taken a cue from mexico and going for a mid-day nap, back after bit yall
[21:07] <jaustinpage> does anyone know any good resources for trying to debug problems with juju deploying?
[21:07] <jaustinpage> im trying to figure out why the nova-compute charm is giving me trouble
[21:08] <jaustinpage> r / juju deploying / juju charms deploying / g
[21:15] <SpamapS> jaustinpage: this channel is the best way to debug things. :)
[21:15] <SpamapS> jaustinpage: I mean, to find info how to debug. :)
[21:15] <SpamapS> jaustinpage: also askubuntu.com is good as we have a bot in here which alerts us to new questions. :)
[21:16] <SpamapS> jaustinpage: what seems to be the problem?
[21:34] <SpamapS> wow, argparse's subparser formatting is ridiculous
[21:42] <SpamapS> jml: FYI, fix for bug 1015574 in juju-jitsu trunk. Thanks for playing!
[21:42] <_mup_> Bug #1015574: No way of discovering subcommands <juju-jitsu:In Progress by clint-fewbar> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1015574 >
[21:42]  * SpamapS goes to the dentist
[22:11] <jaustinpage> Spamaps: figured out what i did wrong. Aparently the space in between the : "option" in yaml is important, i was leaving it out like this :"option:, and it was unhappy with me :-)
[22:11] <jaustinpage> r/"option:/"option"/g
[23:31] <SpamapS> ugh, argparse.. you steaming pile.. why can't you just do what I want?
[23:32] <SpamapS> subparsers are basically a joke. Argh.


[00:51] <TheErk> hola again
[01:15] <Unit193> Cheri703: http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ubuntu+Women+plymouth+themes+?content=141076
[01:16] <canthus13> http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-causes-religious-reaction-in-brains-of-fans-say-neuroscientists/
[01:17] <Unit193> canthus13: This I did see...
[01:18] <Unit193> Well.... Most of it...
[01:35]  * Cheri703 was being productive :)
[01:36] <Cheri703> yeah Unit193, that's the new u-w logo :)
[01:36] <Unit193> Thats a boot splash
[01:36] <Cheri703> yeah
[01:38] <deejoe> canthus13: did you also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e30zR7Fv9uA
[01:39] <deejoe> 1:00 in
[01:40] <canthus13> Not yet...I'll watch it when I get home tonight.
[01:41]  * canthus13 is at work, can't really do videos.
[01:44] <deejoe> ah
[02:02] <dmcglone1> hey
[02:02] <Unit193> Howdy
[02:03] <dmcglone1> hows it going this evening?
[02:04] <TheErk> What up DMC?
[02:05] <dmcglone1> not much just got out from under being forced to watch American Idol :-/
[02:05]  * Unit193 doesn't watch that
[02:06] <dmcglone1> I don't either Unit193 but everyone else here does.
[02:07] <Unit193> Hide under the table ;)
[02:08] <dmcglone1> I try, but my little girls beat me back out from under it :-/
[02:09] <canthus13> deejoe: cancel cable.
[02:09] <canthus13> ...tabfail.
[02:09] <canthus13> or put a parental lock on the channel.
[02:09] <dmcglone1> so is everyone ready to die this saturday???? LOL
[02:09] <Unit193> ^^^
[02:10] <Unit193> I'm going to a graduation... So might as well!
[02:10] <canthus13> dmcglone1: Nah. I'm joining the looting at 6:01.
[02:10] <dmcglone1> didn't you hear Unit193?
[02:11] <dmcglone1> canthus13: I'll join you on that one, you watch my back and I'll watch yours :-)
[02:11] <Unit193> I'm waiting for the 2012 end, not 2011...
[02:11] <dmcglone1> haha, that one is a good one too
[02:12] <dmcglone1> seems now-a-days we are going to die every other week
[02:12] <dmcglone1> Hell my hard drives get a better life span than we do anymore
[02:12] <Unit193> Just because, it's going to happen friday.. :D
[02:13] <dmcglone1> well at least it's going to happen on a day that the majority of americans are happy
[02:13] <dmcglone1> lol
[02:14] <TheErk> Relax it's only the rapture.. party afterwards.
[02:14] <dmcglone1> haha
[02:14] <dmcglone1> where's the party?
[02:15] <TheErk> Wherever you want.. the christians won't be around to stop you.
[02:15] <Unit193> If the world is full of raptors, there is no party!
[02:15] <TheErk> :-D
[02:15] <Unit193> ...
[02:15] <dmcglone1> dang you got some good ones tonight TheErk
[02:16] <dmcglone1> :-)
[02:16] <dmcglone1> well in that case I'm gonna break all the 10 commandments
[02:16] <canthus13> y'know.. If they keep rescheduling the Rapture, everyone's gonna miss it.  The mayan (And many other central/south american) calendars were based on cycles.
[02:20] <dmcglone1> dang canthus13 kill it as quick as I deliver it
[02:20] <TheErk> Thank fully i have a google calendar.. and it lasts a long time.
[02:20] <dmcglone1> ;-)
[02:20] <canthus13> they had centuries to work out a new calendar for the new cycle, so why mess with it?
[02:21] <TheErk> Although i do believe that if one day i can not get to my google calendar.
[02:21] <TheErk> It may be the end of the world.
[02:21] <dmcglone1> I like the "running out rock" theory better :-)
[02:23] <dmcglone1> I really think the dinosaurs ate them before they could finish their calendar :-/
[02:24] <dmcglone1> will Ubuntu 11.10 have a Gnome option?
[02:24] <dmcglone1> or will it just be Unity?
[02:28] <TheErk> I do not know
[02:29] <dmcglone1> I think it was Unit193 that posted the IRC chat where he said the next release will proably include a gnome option
[02:32] <dmcglone1> Or it may have mentioned support for Gnome.
[02:32] <dmcglone1> can't remember which though
[02:33] <TheErk> No idea good sir.
[02:33] <TheErk> Me, i like Unity.
[02:34] <dmcglone1> Eeeeek!
[02:34] <TheErk> :-D
[02:34] <dmcglone1> I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole
[02:35] <dmcglone1> TheErk: tried Gnome 3?
[02:35] <TheErk> I have not.
[02:35] <dmcglone1> beats the hell out of Unity
[02:35] <TheErk> Why?
[02:35] <Unit193> dmcglone1: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/05/expected-changes-in-ubuntu-1110-oneiric.html
[02:36] <dmcglone1> I say you try it before deciding, If you like unity, I guarantee you will like gnome 3
[02:36] <TheErk> Fair enough, i'll DL the live USB
[02:36] <dmcglone1> thanks Unit193
[02:36] <Unit193> Anything beats Unity...
[02:37] <dmcglone1> TheErk: I like how you can put your cursor in the top left corner and everything pops down so you can see the desktops and apps, favorites and places
[02:38] <dmcglone1> It's organised way better than Unity
[02:38] <TheErk> oooo i would love if they got rid of evolution
[02:38] <Unit193> dmcglone1: Sounds like Mac OS X
[02:39] <dmcglone1> I'm not crazy about evolution, I do use it, but it's better than anything else I've found.
[02:39] <Unit193> T-Bird wins
[02:39] <dmcglone1> Kmail is good, but it's bloated
[02:39] <dmcglone1> Unit193: I don't care for web based clients :-/
[02:40] <Unit193> ...
[02:40] <Cheri703> hola
[02:40] <TheErk> I would be fine with no mail client
[02:40] <Unit193> I'm sure there is a way to run T-Bird off that, but normally you use the sudo apt-get install thunderbird
[02:40]  * Cheri703 was productive tonight :D
[02:40] <Cheri703> still more to do, but made progress
[02:40] <dmcglone1> by the way TheErk you can't download Gnome 3 unless you use fedora or suse and some other distro
[02:41] <TheErk> Gnome 3 has a live distro based on fedora
[02:41] <dmcglone1> hola back Cheri703
[02:41]  * Cheri703 is not a hola back girl
[02:41] <dmcglone1> yeah
[02:41]  * Cheri703 is in a weird mood :)
[02:41] <dmcglone1> well you are now, you started it
[02:41] <dmcglone1> :-)
[02:46] <dmcglone1> TheErk: http://ubuntuone.com/p/uSj/
[02:46] <dmcglone1> thats with just 1 desktop
[02:47] <TheErk> It still downloading
[02:47] <dmcglone1> I'm posting one of the desktop now
[02:48] <dmcglone1> http://ubuntuone.com/p/uSk/
[02:48] <TheErk> I will give you this one caveat.. i am a visually impaired user.. and i love Unity for its design.. nice big icons and all
[02:49] <dmcglone1> I see, I'm pretty sure you can make things bigger with Gnome 3 also
[02:50] <dmcglone1> I love that new samsumg infuze commercail
[02:52] <dmcglone1> I think I might have poison oak :-/
[02:53] <Unit193> Scratch it then dump alcohol on it
[02:54] <dmcglone1> Ow. sounds painful
[02:54] <TheErk> Amputation.. it's the only way
[02:54] <dmcglone1> I got a chain saw
[02:54] <Unit193> Bleach!  not alcohol!
[02:54] <dmcglone1> LOL
[02:55] <dmcglone1> Ok I'll be back gonna try bleach
[02:55] <dmcglone1> NOT!
[02:55] <dmcglone1> I'll use Pee, that should work. heard it on a survival show ;-/
[02:56] <Unit193> I heard scratch && bleach!
[02:57] <Cheri703> there's a special soap you can get
[02:57] <dmcglone1> well there's no way in hell I'm pouring bleach in a wound
[02:57] <Unit193> :D
[02:58] <dmcglone1> Unit193: put your hearing aid on, so you don't hear anything like that again :-/
[02:58] <dmcglone1> Cheri703: special soap is for sissies... LOL
[02:59] <dmcglone1> I'll just scratch it and bite it till the skin it's on is gone. That'll work
[02:59] <TheErk> Making USB now
[02:59] <dmcglone1> cool TheErk
[02:59] <dmcglone1> I think You'll like it
[03:00] <dmcglone1> Fox 28's idea of "breaking news" A fire downtown
[03:01] <dmcglone1> whoopi doo doo
[03:01] <dmcglone1> a vacant building it was
[03:01] <TheErk>   rebooting... back in a sec
[03:01] <dmcglone1> k
[03:06] <TheErk> Blah.. my PC doesn't want to boot from Flash
[03:06] <dmcglone1> that was quick
[03:06] <dmcglone1> do you have it enabled in the BIOS?
[03:06] <TheErk> Yep
[03:06] <TheErk> Just not seeing anything connected
[03:07] <dmcglone1> sounds like it's not enabled in the BIOS
[03:08] <TheErk> Lemmie try another port
[03:10] <TheErk> brb
[03:20] <TheErk> ehhh monkeys
[03:21] <jgould> Monkeys?
[03:21] <dmcglone1> watching planet of the apes again? I warned you
[03:21] <dmcglone1> lol
[03:21] <TheErk> MONKEYS!
[03:21] <TheErk> I'm actually looking forward to the prequal
[03:22] <jgould> Hmmm... Maybe I should make coffee
[03:22] <dmcglone1> did it work this time TheErk
[03:22] <TheErk> Nope
[03:22] <dmcglone1> wow
[03:22] <dmcglone1> how'd you install unity?
[03:23] <TheErk> CD
[03:23] <jgould> also, I need to reboot...  This thign did a slew of updates...
[03:23] <dmcglone1> any kernel updates jgould?
[03:26] <TheErk> hmmmm.. be back.
[03:32] <dmcglone1> welcome back
[03:37] <dmcglone1> well I'm outta here. have a good one everybody
[03:40] <jgould> Did it work, Erk
[03:41]  * jgould ponders switching to Mavrick...
[03:43] <TheErk> Hell no
[03:43] <jgould> I feel your pain
[03:48] <jgould> Hmm...  What does it mean when you have an executable that you are you supposed to run ldd on and it tells you that it's 'not a dynamic executable' even though you know it is...
[03:49] <TheErk> It means...
[03:49] <TheErk> something is broke
[03:52] <jgould> I figured that out already...  I hate figuring out what is broke when that is the only clue you get...
[03:54] <canthus13> jgould: I lurve maverick.
[03:54] <jgould> Mavrick may work better, it may not
[03:55] <Unit193> I like Natty
[03:55] <canthus13> jgould: gotta chmod +x maybe?
[03:55] <canthus13> Unit193: Ew.
[03:55] <jgould> I would prefer lucid, as that's what's running on my server...
[03:55] <Unit193> canthus13: Only L/X
[03:55] <jgould> Nope, Same thing
[03:57]  * jgould grumbles
[04:00] <jgould> I'm going to install Maverick rather than Natty and see if I get anywhere...  I'll be back in about an hour
[04:10] <jgould> Well,  The good news is that Mavrick seems to work better than Natty on a live CD
[04:12] <jgould> The first thing this liveCD told me was that there was an upgrade... When is the next LTS Version?  Is it going to be 12.04?
[04:21] <jgould> wow this thing heats up when it's working
[04:27]  * Cheri703 almost made a joke about that being a euphemism, but will refrain
[04:28] <jgould> Heh
[04:30] <jgould> I'm going to mail away for some stickers from System76.  I know my server could stand to lose the "Powered by Windows XP sticker..."
[04:30] <Cheri703> that's cool
[04:36] <jgould> BRB,  Rebooting into Mavrick
[04:58] <jgould> ok, Back
[04:59] <jgould> Also, after a little bit of research, 12.04 is going to be the next LTS.
[05:00] <Unit193> Any Pithos users? (I like pianobar too, canthus13)
[05:07] <jgould> Never heard of it, unit
[05:08] <Unit193> Pandora client
[05:09] <Unit193> I know a fix to get better songs :D
[05:10] <jgould> I think I have a pandora account... Maybe I should look into it
[05:10] <Unit193> Pithos and pianobar
[05:11] <Unit193> WIth Pithos it may be best to use his ppa...
[05:14] <jgould> I'm waiting on updates to install and then I'll look into it
[05:15] <jgould> Taht's the down side to installing a 6 month old distro...  Lots of updates
[05:15] <jgould> But unlike Windows, I get them all in one hit
[05:16] <Unit193> And you shouldn't have to reboot 7 times...
[05:17] <jgould> Exactly.  One time and the updates are done.  Apple is pretty close to that, depending on the updates.  I still don't get why you have to reboot for Safari though...
[05:18] <Unit193> http://www.stickycomics.com/computer-update/
[05:18] <jgould> Also, I need to look into remapping my control key to my command key and vice versa.  should I have a 'windows like' key function
[05:19] <jgould> LOL
[05:19] <Unit193> I see that as rather ture...
[05:19] <jgould> I do too
[05:21]  * Cheri703 is bored...
[05:22] <Unit193> In the themes section, the "windows" one doesn't look close to as good as XP (or up for that matter...)
[05:22] <canthus13> jgould: you probably should have the 'windows' key.
[05:22] <canthus13> jgould: it's useful for a lot of stuff, particularly with compiz.
[05:22] <jgould> Under unity, if I hit my command (it remaps to the start/windows key under windows) I get the menu.  I don't get that in 10.10
[05:22] <Unit193> I take it the mactel channel is usless?
[05:23] <jgould> Yeah,  there is one other person in there besides me
[05:25] <jgould> I've not played with compiz...
[05:25] <canthus13> jgould: also, the keyboard shortcuts app allows you to map all sorts of stuff to various key combos.
[05:30]  * jgould notes that it's hot in ehre
[05:30] <jgould> er here
[05:31] <jgould> 78 is a tad bit warm
[05:31] <Unit193> Way too hot...
[05:32] <jgould> on my natty box, teh command key doens't do anything either
[05:32] <jgould> So what do the 'official' natty cd's look like
[05:34] <Unit193> http://www.stickycomics.com/wp-content/uploads/os_couples.jpg
[05:36] <jgould> heh
[05:36] <jgould> brb, restarting the laptop
[05:59] <jgould> Well,  this hasn't helped... I'm going to go back to natty
[06:08] <jgould> why the hell when I have synaptic open to find a package, do I go and switch to the CLI so I can install it??!?!!
[06:11] <Cheri703> you shouldn't
[06:11] <jgould> I know.  I can do it right from Synaptic
[06:11] <Cheri703> *shouldn't have to
[06:11] <Cheri703> ok, I misread and thought you had to for some reason
[06:12] <Unit193> Synaptic? What is this?
[06:13] <jgould> I'm beginning to think it's force of habit from working on the server.  i've installed a few packages by searchign for them in synaptic first, and then swtiching to the CLI for the server and installign them
[06:14] <Unit193> You can search with CLI...
[06:14] <Unit193> ...That's not the point
[06:15] <Cheri703> this is coming from left field, but...pregnant women who are close to their due date ...shouldn't they anticipate the whole "water breaking" thing? like...wear a diaper or rubber pants or something? I dunno...in tv shows/movies they always end up with a puddle, which is nasty...just seems like there's a better way
[06:15] <jgould> Ew.  and that is left field.
[06:17] <jgould> and you would think so
[06:18] <Unit193> Not everyone has their water break
[06:18] <Cheri703> it just....doesn't make sense to me
[06:18]  * Cheri703 is super grossed out by the whole childbirth thing
[06:19]  * jgould thinks that means that there won't be any little Cheri's running aournd
[06:19] <Cheri703> not anytime soon!
[06:20] <Cheri703> I feel no particular urge for children that are biologically mine
[06:20] <Cheri703> at this exact minute, I'm not having a major urge toward ANY children, but if that comes, we'll see
[06:21] <jgould> I wouldn't mind kids, but we're not actively trying for them right now.  I deal with too many at work...
[06:24] <jgould> I think that the fact that I keep trying to install Linux, even though I have issues, might mean something...
[06:24] <Unit193> http://www.motifake.com/index.php?start=134741
[06:38] <Cheri703> any of you watch the show Bones?
[06:39] <jgould> Nope.  I've thought about it
[06:42] <jgould> I love having a network enabled printer
[06:42] <jgould> especially considering it was free XD
[06:43] <Cheri703> I'm trying to decide whether or not to go to bed...I don't *technically* have anything on my schedule for tomorrow til 3:30pm
[06:43]  * jgould fills Cheri703's schedule up with random stuff
[06:44] <Cheri703> bah, then I have to wake up earlier
[06:44] <jgould> Sorry
[06:45] <Cheri703> my brain is weird
[06:45] <Cheri703> sometimes I feel strange, I think my blood sugar is out of whack at the moment
[06:46] <Cheri703> brb
[06:46] <jgould> possible.  I will randomly feel dizzy.  It's something I inherted from my mother... Thanks Mom!
[06:52] <Cheri703> back
[06:53] <jgould> front
[06:55] <jgould> I'm going to go find out how much it's going to cost to mail something.  I'll brb
[06:59] <Unit193> My cousin *can't* (or *REALLY* shouldn't) have sugar
[07:12] <jgould> I've often wondered if I'm not hypoglycemic <SP>
[07:13] <Cheri703> I am
[07:13] <Cheri703> have been since I was a kid
[07:13] <Unit193> I would be sad if I could never have real sugar...
[07:13] <jgould> I agree, Unit193
[07:13] <Cheri703> I can have sugar, I just *should* have it with "real" food
[07:14] <Unit193> +caffeine
[07:14] <jgould> Candy is "real" food, right?
[07:14] <Cheri703> that doesn't always happen and I get into weird up/down things, but I manage
[07:15] <jgould> It's all about knowing how to control it
[07:15] <Unit193> Cousin can't...
[07:15] <Cheri703> yeah
[07:15] <jgould> Ok,  It's going to cost me $10.20ish to mail this defective router back to Cisco
[07:16] <Cheri703> :/
[07:16] <jgould> I turn the air on and it goes *up* a degree in here...   I seem to have more paper than I know what to do with...
[07:21]  * jgould removes his brain
[07:25] <jgould> Hmm... Update manager doesn't seem to want to work
[07:44] <jgould> Now I have appications crashing out of the blue...
[08:16] <jgould> Wow... Unity just defaulted to a 2D mode
[08:19] <jgould> See This is what I dont' get.  things will change for no reason
[08:24] <jgould> Hmm... I'm talking to my self
[08:25] <Unit193> That heppens a TON for you...
[08:25] <jgould> Which, talking to my self or things changing?
[08:28] <Unit193> You talk to yourself
[08:29] <jgould> That's cause no one answers me...
[08:29]  * Unit193 hasn't used Linux on a new mac...
[08:30]  * jgould pulls his hair out
[08:31] <jgould> :P
[08:32] <jgould> if I knew then what I know now, my system wouldn't have been a new Mac (or at least not an 8,1
[08:33] <Unit193> My cousin hasn't really used linux, is it worth it to try to get him to use it on his mac?
[08:34] <jgould> I think you will have better luck with a 7,1 than the 8,1 at this point
[09:21] <BiosElement> Random offtopic awesomeness
[09:21] <BiosElement> Sony just found a live phishing site running on their own servers...
[09:22] <BiosElement> Am I allowed to laugh yet? :P
[09:23] <jgould> No
[09:24] <Unit193> Wow...
[09:24] <BiosElement> No? But...but...it's like poor sony's trying to make fools of themselves
[09:25] <jgould> Heh
[09:25] <Unit193> Security? We don't need no security!
[09:25] <BiosElement> I mean, I know they've hired good techs.    :P
[09:36] <BiosElement> This is awesome, It's technically a federal crime in the US and yet GPS jammers are sold via US companies. >.>
[09:37] <BiosElement> It'd be much more fun to jam the GPS Sats themselves though. >.<
[09:37] <Unit193> Texting jammer is a nice thing to have..
[09:37] <BiosElement> It's actually not hard to spoof a GPS signal either since most GPS receivers just latch onto the strongest signal.
[09:40] <BiosElement> Has anyone done much poking around into Stuxnet? Just poking around some, it's pretty impressive.
[09:41] <jgould> Never heard of it
[09:41] <jgould> Ha!  I wonder if I have scrolling on my trackpad in Ubuntu Classic or just in Unity
[09:51] <jgould> Yay!
[09:51] <jgould> We're getting somewhere
[09:53] <jgould> This is something I didnt' have before
[09:58] <jgould> Now, don't ask me to tell you how I got it working
[09:59] <BiosElement> hah
[09:59] <BiosElement> Don't breath
[10:00] <jgould> The sad thing is that I have that kind of luck
[11:31]  * jgould makes a note to not try to figure out technical stuff when he's half asleep
[13:21] <jgould> Ah ha!  I was sleeping
[17:27] <jgould> woke up from an odd dream and had to send an email...
[17:29] <jgould> Kinda werid when that happnes...  Anywho, back to sleep
[18:36] <thafreak> I'm thinking of setting up TOR just for IRC :)
[18:36] <thafreak> to obscure my host
[18:36] <jgould> TOR?
[18:47]  * jgould ponders
[18:48]  * jgould is also cold
[18:49] <Unit193> I'm not cold at all!
[18:54] <jgould> it's 77 in here and I'm freezing
[18:55] <thafreak> There we go...didn't realize I wasn't connecting with SSL all this time!
[18:56] <Unit193> thafreak: Do you need it?
[18:59] <jgould> connecting to the irc server?
[19:00] <thafreak> well..when I send my top secret password for identifying my nick....yeah I need it to go over ssl :)
[19:00] <thafreak> been sending it plain text all this time
[19:03] <jgould> ah
[19:12]  * jgould rubs his eyes
[19:35] <thafreak> Nice...now I got me a cloak :)
[19:36] <Unit193> Who gave it to you? (Did you also ask for a dagger?)
[19:37] <jgould> damn flash makes the fans spin up on this thing
[19:37] <Unit193> Then stop flashing your computer....
[19:39] <canthus13> jgould: Flash makes my work machine go nuts... and it's running on my laptop at home. :/
[19:46] <jgould> I can't help that flashing it gets it all hot and bothered
[19:49] <thafreak> I just followed the freenode instructions
[19:49] <thafreak> just make sure your nick is registered, then find a freenode staffer and ask for a cloak
[19:49] <thafreak> disconnect and reconnect, and viola, you're cloaked
[19:50] <Unit193> thafreak: I was just asking what staffer gave it to you (You didn't have to disconnect and reconnect)
[19:51] <Unit193> thafreak: And the dagger what from asking for a cloak and dagger :D
[19:51] <thafreak> i caught the cloak-n-dagger ref :)
[19:52] <Unit193> I told my friend to ask for that too (and he did :D )
[19:52] <thafreak> well, they said they gave me a cloak...but i still saw the host I was connecting from...so i disconnected and re-connected (the solution to everything) and it's there now
[19:52] <jgould> A reboot fixes everything
[19:53] <jgould> including the human brain
[19:53] <thafreak> word
[19:53] <Unit193> +coffee
[19:54] <jgould> +coffee
[19:54] <thafreak> already have that...
[19:54] <thafreak> just brewed some
[19:54] <jgould> I need some
[19:54] <jgould> Also need to get off my ass and do something...
[19:58] <thafreak> stunnel4
[20:02] <thafreak> Anyone set up one of those boot on lan environments, where you can remotely image machines?
[20:03] <thafreak> i saw something in conjunction with clonezilla about it
[20:06] <thafreak> i think I just had a great idea
[20:06] <thafreak> since I can't out right replace these stupid windows computers...I'm going to ADD a linux computer to each office
[20:06] <thafreak> so when their windoze machine breaks, they have something that keeps working
[20:08] <thafreak> if they're anything like normal people with normal brains, they'll eventually start to rely more on the machine that is usable most of the time right?
[20:09] <Unit193> The computer speakers that pickup radio just started playing the rickroll....
[20:11] <canthus13> thafreak: What did you wanna know about tor?
[20:15] <thafreak> canthus13: just how hard/easy it was to setup and use...
[20:15] <thafreak> I have some new vps servers coming with unmetered bandwidth...thinking of running a tor middleman on one
[20:16] <canthus13> thafreak: Not that difficult.... you'd have to write a script to automagically turn it on, otherwise you're doing /etc/init.d/tor start and /etc/init.d/privoxy start... and you ideally want to install teh torbutton plugin for firefox.
[20:16] <Unit193> http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml#tor
[20:16] <canthus13> dunno how hard it is to run a node.
[20:17] <thafreak> i was just going to run irssi over it really
[20:17] <thafreak> well, we'll see...got some other experiments to do first
[20:19] <canthus13> never used irssi over it.
[20:23] <jgould> Hmm...  We haven't gotten any mail in 3 days... Not normal
[20:31] <deejoe> snail or e?
[20:36] <jgould> snail
[20:36] <thafreak> maybe you're actually on vacation, and no one told you
[20:47] <jgould> That would be nice
[20:49] <jgould> Can I be on vacation somewhere nice?
[21:00] <canthus13> jgould: No spam? I'd be thrilled...
[21:13] <Unit193> This coffee is so good....
[21:29] <thafreak> what kinds of koffee?
[21:29] <thafreak> ha, that reminds me...anyone remember kafe...or however it was spelled...
[21:29] <thafreak> the java implementation from way back
[21:29] <thafreak> was it kaffee...
[21:30] <canthus13> never hurd of it.
[21:32] <thafreak> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffe
[21:32] <thafreak> it was aparently the first open source java implementation...
[21:32] <thafreak> probably why redhat distributed it back in the day
[21:33] <thafreak> like back redhat 5/6 days
[21:33] <thafreak> for the un-initiated, fedora 1 = redhat 10 :)
[21:34] <SkrappJaw> thafreak: That much I knew
[21:34] <SkrappJaw> Im still a newb tho. lol
[21:34] <SkrappJaw> <-- 6 months of ubuntu thus far.
[21:34] <thafreak> some people hear me talk about redhat 5 or 6 and are like...isn't that the current version :)
[21:34] <SkrappJaw> lol.
[21:35] <SkrappJaw> redhat became the umbrella for all the stuff involving fedora and the like didnt it?
[21:35] <thafreak> yep...
[21:36] <thafreak> what happened, a community project started to make newer RPM's for redhat
[21:36] <thafreak> they called themselves feodora...
[21:36] <SkrappJaw> cuz thats the hat in the redhat logo
[21:36] <thafreak> this was back when there was only 1 redhat...it was all free...
[21:36] <canthus13> thafreak: My first unix-style shell account was RH 4.62....
[21:36] <canthus13> (My first shell account was VMS..)
[21:36] <thafreak> nice
[21:37] <canthus13> VMS makes neckbeards cry.
[21:37] <thafreak> mine was some solaris abomination...
[21:37] <thafreak> I think
[21:37] <canthus13> but my first internet access was via VMS.
[21:37] <canthus13> I don't think it was called 'internet' back then, though.. Still ARPAnet.
[21:37] <SkrappJaw> I did read some on Fedora. The only reason I'm on Ubu is because fedora doesnt like my IBM Thinkcentre p4 box.   I had X.25 PAD access.
[21:38] <canthus13> via dialup into a 1200 baud connection.
[21:38] <thafreak> my only complaint about redhat and fedora, is that yum is garbage
[21:38] <canthus13> s/yum/yuck/
[21:38] <thafreak> seriously
[21:38] <canthus13> too slow.
[21:38] <thafreak> back in the day, I used apt4rpm :)
[21:39] <canthus13> Heh.
[21:39]  * SkrappJaw isnt geek enough to know what that was.
[21:40] <canthus13> I forget the package manager I used when I last used an RH style distro... it was kinda like synaptic... in Open Caldera 2.3
[21:40] <thafreak> some one ported the apt tools to use rpm's (redhat packages) instead of dpkg (debian packages)
[21:40]  * canthus13 never wants to go back to those days...
[21:40] <SkrappJaw> ah. Ok. I know dpkg.
[21:41] <thafreak> I should see if apt4rpm is still around...might actually use fedora if it has apt4rpm...
[21:41] <Cheri703> SkrappJaw: me neither
[21:41] <Unit193> thafreak: Irish Cream
[21:41] <canthus13> SkrappJaw: you should.
[21:41] <Cheri703> btw, o/ SkrappJaw :)
[21:41] <canthus13> SkrappJaw: dpkg is the foundation for apt.
[21:41] <SkrappJaw> lol, Cheri703
[21:41] <SkrappJaw> I would like to know how to compile my own dpkg.
[21:42] <thafreak> hmm...when the last item in the "news" section is dated 2005, that's a bad sign
[21:42] <SkrappJaw> for qjoypad. So i dont have to compile it every time I install on a new box
[21:42]  * canthus13 wonders how you install dpkg if you accidentally remove it...
[21:42] <thafreak> aptitude reinstall foo
[21:42] <thafreak> ?
[21:42] <SkrappJaw> lol
[21:43] <SkrappJaw> I have problems with debian6. Nautilus is broke out the box.  I tried to find it but couldnt sort it out.
[21:44] <canthus13> thafreak: I thought aptitude depended on dpkg.
[21:44] <thafreak> OH
[21:44] <thafreak> you removed dpkg! ahahaha
[21:45] <thafreak> holy crap man
[21:45] <thafreak> download the dpkg deb, and untar it
[21:45] <SkrappJaw> its an error with something. Daemon? Something bout not being able to connect to dbus server
[21:45] <thafreak> http://apt-rpm.org/about.shtml
[21:46] <thafreak> so that one is still active
[21:46] <thafreak> might have to install fedora just to try that out...
[21:46] <canthus13> thafreak: I didn't remove it.. I was just wondering how to put it back, aside from compiling from source. :)
[21:47] <thafreak> you can untar an deb
[21:47]  * canthus13 did accidentally remove rpm on Open Caldera once, though... which completely destroyed the system.
[21:47] <thafreak> you can unzip ish an rpm too
[21:47] <thafreak> actually cpio
[21:47] <canthus13> yeah, but the whole dependency hell thing made it impossible to do just about anything. :/
[21:48] <thafreak> yep
[21:48] <canthus13> It was easier to switch back to windows.
[21:48] <thafreak> hence the reason I setup apt-rpm :_
[21:48] <canthus13> heh.
[21:48] <canthus13> I didn't know about it yet... Debian seemed like some mystical neckbeard distro back in 2001.
[21:49] <thafreak> yes it did...that's why I just took apt, and left the rest ;)
[21:49] <thafreak> but then i switched to gentoo...after that, debian seemed easy :)
[21:50] <canthus13> Hmm... Just got an offer for a software tester position... at 12.50/hr. :/
[21:50] <SkrappJaw> boss.
[21:50] <thafreak> is it a paycut?
[21:52]  * SkrappJaw is not employed.
[21:52] <SkrappJaw> That'd be boss for me. lol
[21:57] <SkrappJaw> So, question. How does one uninstall a program they compiled via make install?
[22:04] <Cheri703> canthus13: /me would love to make $12.50/hr :D
[22:13] <canthus13> Cheri703: Wanna move to whitehouse?
[22:13] <Cheri703> no idea where that is
[22:13] <canthus13> SW of toledo.
[22:13] <canthus13> It's a small town about half an hour out.
[22:13] <Cheri703> hmm...
[22:13] <Cheri703> no chance of telecommuting, eh?
[22:14] <canthus13> Doesn't look like it. I'll forward it to you.
[22:15] <Cheri703> kk
[22:16] <Cheri703> interesting
[22:24] <canthus13> thafreak: Yeah... a fair bit of a paycut....
[22:25] <canthus13> SkrappJaw: Depends.. Some have an uninstall script. you might check the readme.
[23:19]  * jgould is bored
[23:19] <jgould> and i need a package of $.70 parts...
[23:32] <canthus13> jgould: try installing LFS if you're bored.
[23:33] <jgould> LFS?
[23:36] <canthus13> Linux From Scratch.
[23:36] <canthus13> Try installing it in a VM.  It's basically compiling everything from the toolchain on up.
[23:37]  * Unit193 wants to go to OLF and see people from the LoCo
[23:37]  * canthus13 is going to OLF.
[23:37] <canthus13> Speaking of which.. I need to request the days off now.
[23:39] <jgould> OLF?
[23:45] <canthus13> Ohio Linux Fesgt.
[23:45] <canthus13> ...Fest.
[23:45] <canthus13> In cbus Sept 9-11.
[23:46] <canthus13> Gotta go for the pre-party... Last year, Nagios dropped $10k on the bar for drinks for OLF folks...
[23:46] <canthus13> ...which resulted in paultag endorsing them. :)
[23:55] <Unit193> Now my voice hurts from yelling at the computer....
[23:55] <canthus13> Unit193: That was dumb.
[23:56] <canthus13> You should kick it next time.  Or headbutt it.
[23:56] <Unit193> The site spider has no **** filter....
[23:57] <Unit193> And now it's hung...
[23:59]  * canthus13 won't crack any jokes.


[15:47] <superkuh> https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/ubuntu-mate-22-04-lts-jammy-jellyfish-release-notes/25318
[15:49] <superkuh> Or well, https://ubuntu-mate.org/blog/ubuntu-mate-jammy-jellyfish-release-notes/
[15:50] <superkuh> Not cool that it doesn't look like gnome2/MATE by default anymore.
[15:51] <superkuh> And all the old themes are gone.
[16:14] <sixwheeledbeast> It's been familiar layout for a few releases now.
[16:22] <sixwheeledbeast> Traditional will still be available, it's wouldn't be mate anymore without it.
[17:03] <Guest8565> Did ubuntu mate 22.04 get patched to fix the flatpak bug with marco that's been persistent for years?


 Good thing I had Ubuntu Studio on a USB! Have to use it today as my main OS today
 However, I'm trying to setup my NordVPN and it is grey out
 as far as the Add VPN in the network settings goes, any ideas?
 @designbybeck [However, I'm trying to setup my NordVPN and it is grey out], I wouldn't advise using NordVPN anymore, as they got hacked recently if I remember correctly
 In the Network settings there should be a way to add VPN settings
 (Photo, 516x420) https://i.imgur.com/OYatXoV.jpg
 Yeah, Have you tried it?
 greyed out
 Ah.
 I'm not sure, I really don't use VPN's. Sorry mate. MAybe somebody else can help
 Thanks @SomeIrrelevantPerson0000
 No problem mate
[14:43] <tomreyn> install network-manager-openvpn-gnome then logout and login and use nm-connections-editor to setup your vpn (although it'll also work the way you tried then)
[14:43] <tomreyn> designbybeck ^
 thanks @tom
 I just did their commandline way and got connected that way for now
[14:56] <tomreyn> alright :)
[22:12] <_SKiTZO> I have an old MOTU Traveller that I want to get working on ubuntu. it is a firewire interface. I have PCIe firewire interface in my modern-ish computer
[22:12] <_SKiTZO> When I plug it in, there is no "plug and play" going on. no new hardware seems to be detected etc
[22:13] <_SKiTZO> I am on stock Ubuntu 18.04
[22:13] <_SKiTZO> what would be my next step to get this working?
[22:15] <oerheks> firewire.. i guess you need to insert that interface, and then cold boot.
[22:15] <_SKiTZO> ok so it needs to be present at boot?
[22:16] <_SKiTZO> is there any software I should install?
[22:16] <oerheks> no?
[22:16] <_SKiTZO> :D Cool! tx will give it a go
[22:16] <_SKiTZO> brb rebooting
[22:16] <OvenWerks> _SKiTZO: what do you get for ls /dev/fw*
[22:17] <OvenWerks> missed...
[22:18] <wonko> He'll be back. Maybe. 😁
[22:23] <oerheks> :-)
[22:24] <_SKiTZO> OvenWerks,
[22:25] <_SKiTZO>  /dev/fw0
[22:25] <OvenWerks> So the system sees your FW hub but not anything connected to it.
[22:25] <OvenWerks> I seem to have the same problem
[22:26] <OvenWerks> Because I have three new to me bits (box, cable and interface) I am not sure which one might be the problem
[22:26] <_SKiTZO> yes exactly. lshw reports the hub but nothing else
[22:27] <_SKiTZO> well I verified all 3 on windows machine
[22:27]  * OvenWerks has forgotten what a windows machine looks like...
[22:28] <_SKiTZO> OvenWerks, I wish I had *sigh*
[22:28] <_SKiTZO> motu has 2 firewire inputs.  I will have to never reboot :P
[22:31] <_SKiTZO> And also will have to verify that it actually plays back sound
[22:31] <oerheks> oh nice
[22:32] <OvenWerks> Shows up as an alsa device?
[22:33] <OvenWerks> my understanding is that it shows up as an alsa device by default these days
[22:34] <_SKiTZO> yes. there is new /dev/fw1 but output of lshw has no mention
[22:34] <_SKiTZO> it shows up as alsa device
[22:34] <_SKiTZO> I am kind of impressed really
[22:44] <_SKiTZO> ok so alasmixer says "this card has no controls"
[22:44] <_SKiTZO> what does that mean?
[22:45] <_SKiTZO> how can I change settings for it?
[22:46] <OvenWerks> That was why I was trying to get a fw set up going so I could find out... does FFADO mixer work?
[22:46] <_SKiTZO> i dont even know what that is
[22:46] <OvenWerks> Audio production -> Mixers->FFADOmixer
[22:47] <OvenWerks> I don't know what it is supposed to do either
[22:47] <_SKiTZO> ok so I started ffado-mixer it opens gui with info "you are running this version of FFADO for the first time bla bla"
[22:48] <OvenWerks> I just get errors because it can't see my device
[22:49]  * OvenWerks should take his apart and see if something got shaken loose in shipping.
[22:49] <_SKiTZO> the ffado-mixer interface faithfully represents the features of my traveller O-O i am completely flabergasted
[22:50] <OvenWerks> good
[22:51] <_SKiTZO> but still no sound output. At this stage that is probably because I don't understand the controls very well
[22:55] <_SKiTZO> the traveller is beautiful on the inside
[22:55] <_SKiTZO> well constructed and all gold plated everywhere


[17:50] <ali1234> rafaeldtinoco: i started rewriting abe in python to learn how it works. it does some things that i find unusual. you wouldn't happen to know anything about that would you?


[12:21] <zul> heylo
[06:14] <fabbione> morning
[03:09] <zul> hey
[03:30] <zul> fabbione:  for #8189 have a look at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-scsi&m=109638967308598&w=2
[03:31] <zul> but it might break abi
[04:34] <lamont> moo
[04:36] <lamont> fabbione: are you using baz mv for the abi files, or add /delete?
[04:38] <lamont> looks like baz mv, if I'm understanding the cryptic output from baz update
[06:04] <zul> fabbione: uh never mind its alrady applied
[06:15] <fabbione> hi guys
[06:15] <fabbione> baz mv :-)
[06:15] <zul> hey fabbione how is it going?
[06:15] <fabbione> it's going finr thanks and you?
[06:15] <zul> good...just enjoying a day off
[06:17] <fabbione> some bugs have bounced to kernel-team
[06:18] <zul> yeah noticed that
[06:21] <zul> so uh i take it we are going to be using 2.6.11 for breezy/bender
[06:23] <fabbione> nope
[06:24] <fabbione> i am planning 2.6.12
[06:24] <zul> ok
[06:24] <fabbione> i don't think we should spend too much time on 2.6.11 for 2 reasons
[06:24] <fabbione> 2.6.12 is already at RC stage
[06:24] <fabbione> that means it will be out in final pretty soon
[06:25] <zul> and....
[06:25] <fabbione> 2.6.11 has a lot of security holes phone... sec.
[06:25] <zul> k
[06:25] <fabbione> sorry i was saying..
[06:26] <fabbione> 2.6.11 has a lot of security holes that are fixed in 2.6.12 and we have as patches for 2.6.10
[06:26] <fabbione> that means a lot of extra work in portforwarding the patches
[06:27] <zul> sounds reasonable i was thinking about version numbering last night
[06:27] <fabbione> i started looking into the XEN patch
[06:27] <fabbione> and how to build the debs for it
[06:27] <fabbione> at least the kernel side
[06:28] <zul> i say let schweeb handle the user side
[06:28] <fabbione> yes
[06:28] <fabbione> userland is very simple
[06:28] <fabbione> i could package it in half day probablu
[06:28] <zul> for the kernel version stuff i was thinking something 2.6.12.abi.patchlevel
[06:29] <fabbione> our plan is to drop the patch level completely
[06:29] <fabbione> MEH
[06:29] <fabbione> the abi
[06:29] <zul> and use what?
[06:30] <fabbione> nothing. s/abi//g
[06:30] <fabbione> dilinger did a proposal on debian-kernel that sounds interesting
[06:30] <zul> ok...then how are you going to keep track if they are using for example different acpi snapshots
[06:30] <zul> ill have to see
[06:30] <fabbione> we still track the package version
[06:30] <fabbione> that cannot be removed
[06:31] <fabbione> but we can kill the ABI
[06:31] <zul> ok
[06:31] <fabbione> we need to see how complex would be to manage without
[06:33] <zul> do have a url for dilinger's proposal
[06:34] <fabbione> it should be somewhere here in channel logs
[06:34] <fabbione> from yesterday iirc
[06:34] <zul> k
[06:34] <zul> heh i wont be lazy and ill find it myself ;)
[06:37] <zul> so you would have a base kernel-image and you would have the user compile the modules themselves ?
[06:38] <zul> with module-assitant?
[06:38] <fabbione> something like that, but using a new standard hook where to store the sources of the external modules
[06:38] <fabbione> so that they can be compiled at postinst time
[06:38] <fabbione> given that there is an ABI change
[06:39] <zul> so what if they have a slow ass system?
[06:39] <fabbione> nasty, eh?
[06:39] <zul> yeah reminds me of gentoo kind of
[06:39] <fabbione> well in all cases if they use thirdy part modules they will have to recompile them anyway
[06:39] <fabbione> we can still do in such a way to ensure that the modules we provide are always in sync
[06:40] <zul> true but what if the kernel-headers are mixed up, for example if someone who thinks they are know what they are doing but they dont messes up and files a bug report
[06:41] <crimsun> hmm.  How about always triggering a recompile of l-r-m whenever a new linux-source is uploaded?  True, more space, but more transparent to the end-user
[06:41] <crimsun> or is that precisely what we're trying to avoid?
[06:41] <fabbione> zul: i am not sure i understand...
[06:41] <fabbione> crimsun: we are avoiding 2 things here:
[06:42] <fabbione> 1) random recompilation of l-r-m and thirdy part modules
[06:42] <fabbione> 2) having to deal with ABI changes, since they are embedded in the package name
[06:42] <fabbione> both of them are not easy
[06:42] <zul> well lets say they have a vanilla kernel-headers installed and they have our kernel-headers installed and something messes up
[06:43] <fabbione> zul: our kernel headers lands alwys in a predictable place.
[06:43] <fabbione> if they fuck up the system is kinda of not our problem
[06:43] <zul> ok...but what if the user puts it in the same place...
[06:43] <fabbione> plus we can add sanity checks before performing operations
[06:43] <zul> im just trying to play devio advocate here
[06:43] <zul> true..
[06:43] <fabbione> zul: sure.. i appreciate that :-)
[06:44] <fabbione> that's why we need really brainstorm a lot face2face
[06:44] <zul> no gentoo here ;)
[06:44] <fabbione> it's really difficult to evaluate all the corner cases on IRC
[06:44] <zul> yeah too bad i wont be at udu :)
[06:44] <fabbione> we can also make it an option
[06:44] <crimsun> fabbione: ok, I see regarding (1).  So that means we avoid automatically triggering a rebuild on the buildds whenever a new l-s is uploaded?
[06:45] <fabbione> crimsun: there are a lot of implication in hiding an ABI change. l-r-m is really the last of our problems
[06:45] <fabbione> since we have control of it
[06:45] <crimsun> fabbione: right, gotcha
[06:46] <fabbione> our problem is to find an efficent way to detect external modules (out of Ubuntu), and do in such a way that if there is an ABI change, print a big fat warning to the user in the first place
[06:46] <fabbione> and provide an automatic system to manage recompilation of these modules on request
[06:47] <fabbione> of course there would be the nice config file with: do_everything_for_me=[yes|no|ask]
[06:47] <zul> well why not have a list of base modules that we support like ipw2200, hostap, and then inform the users that they abi has changed we are going to break shit now
[06:47] <zul> er...list of 3rd party modules
[06:48] <fabbione> zul: i am not talking about 3dy part modules in our tree.
[06:48] <fabbione> for example i compile the quickcam module myself
[06:48] <zul> duh..oops
[06:48] <fabbione> that is not part of either linux-source or l-r-m
[06:48] <fabbione> how can i make it so that if i change the ABI i can tell the user: hey dude.. this module you compiled yourself will not load....
[06:48] <fabbione> and so on...
[06:48] <fabbione> +
[06:49] <fabbione> hey dude: if you put the source in this dir
[06:49] <fabbione> it will be recompiled automatically for you
[06:49] <zul> sounds reasonable
[07:06] <fabbione> we can't use a Xen kernel as our default kernel... yet
[07:06] <fabbione> so that means that we to create 386-xen, 686-xen, k7-xen
[07:06] <fabbione> SMP is not supported in 2.6.10
[07:06] <fabbione> but it might in 2.6.11.. not sure yet
[07:06] <zul> in linux-sources? cool
[07:07] <fabbione> well, that's the idea
[07:07] <fabbione> so that would add 6 more linux-images on i386
[07:07] <fabbione> that will differ of one option
[07:07] <fabbione> + we lose ACPI and CPUFREQ
[07:08] <fabbione> still not supported by xen
[07:08] <fabbione> ah and >4GB mem support.. but i don't know that many people using that much anyway
[07:09] <fabbione> may i add a royal mess to build the package? ;)
[07:09] <fabbione> since ARCH=xen :-)
[07:09] <fabbione> that might attempt to create _xen.deb
[07:09] <zul> ++
[07:11] <zul> i think im going to go watch the incredibles ill be back later
[07:12] <fabbione> have fun
[07:12] <zul> i will
[07:12] <fabbione> it's a nice movie
[07:12] <fabbione> :-)
[07:12] <zul> especillay the extras for the dvd
[07:20] <fabbione> heheh
[11:18] <zul> that was a good movie