[00:07] <webchat51> Today I can no longer boot properly with 5.15.0-53-generic, after BIOS LUKS does not ask me for a password, and my monitor goes to sleep. It however works with 5.15.0-52-generic. Is there something I can do, or should I report a bug?
[00:08] <arraybolt3> webchat51: Just to be sure, no one may have maliciously modified your system, right?
[00:08] <arraybolt3> If so, try blindly typing your LUKS password and pressing Enter, and see if that works.
[00:08] <webchat51> I noticed it today because I ran out of space and rebooted. I don't know if that could cause any problems.
[00:09] <arraybolt3> And you did clear some space, right?
[00:09] <webchat51> Yeah, I'm back online with plenty of space
[00:09] <arraybolt3> Nice. OK, then I would try typing the password blindly and see if that works. I would also definitely report a bug.
[00:10] <arraybolt3> Just run "ubuntu-bug linux" in a terminal window, and follow the on-screen instructions. You will be asked to create an Ubuntu One account if you don't have one already.
[00:10] <arraybolt3> Describe in detail what you're doing to cause the bug, what you expected to happen, and what happened instead, along with any extra info you have.
[00:10] <webchat51> Oh, nice, I was thinking about the site, I just made an account there
[00:10] <webchat51> But that sounds easier
[00:11] <arraybolt3> Also see this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Bugs
[00:11] <webchat51> Thanks!
[00:11] <arraybolt3> Sure thing!
[00:11] <arraybolt3> Also, back up your data, you may be asked to do a whole bunch of stuff to your system for troubleshooting purposes, and in the event that goes really wrong, you don't want to lose your data.
[00:12] <webchat51> Luckily already did that while fixing the space issue, I was preparing for a reinstall.
[00:13] <webchat51> Btw, can I somehow see when I installed that kernel? I'm curious if it was installed since my last reboot, or if I was using it all along.
[00:13] <arraybolt3> Nice.  Also you may want to ensure that the people asking you to do things are trustworthy - you can click on a person's user profile and see what teams they're a part of to help verify that.
[00:13] <arraybolt3> webchat51: I think so, hold on one moment...
[00:14] <arraybolt3> webchat51: Try "grep install /var/log/dpkg.log".
[00:15] <arraybolt3> That should show you the dates of when packages were installed.
[00:15] <webchat51> Should that ... show dates from before I installed?
[00:16] <arraybolt3> webchat51: And if that doesn't work, try looking in an earlier log with "grep install /var/log/dpkg.log.1".
[00:16] <arraybolt3> webchat51: From before you installed the system itself?
[00:16] <webchat51> Yes
[00:16] <arraybolt3> Possibly, now that I think about it.
[00:17] <arraybolt3> When you install Kubuntu, it doesn't install every single package one at a time, it just clones the installation on the live ISO and then removes anything that only belongs on the live ISO, then does some configuration. (That's a very rough overview.)
[00:17] <arraybolt3> So it may display dates from when the packages were installed onto the ISO during the ISO build process. That would be my best guess as to why it's showing older stuff like that.
[00:18] <webchat51> Yeah, I was thinking something like that too.
[00:18] <webchat51> Does this seem right? 2022-11-15 14:44:19 install linux-modules-5.15.0-53-generic:amd64 <none> 5.15.0-53.59
[00:18] <arraybolt3> Well I have a line that looks almost exactly like that in my dpkg.log.1 file, and my system works fine, so I would think so.
[00:18] <webchat51> In that case I think I was using .52 last time I booted properly.
[00:19] <webchat51> Which seems better than if I was using .53 all the time, and then suddenly I had the problem.
[00:20] <arraybolt3> True. If booting into .52 works, and .53 has a problem, that sounds like a kernel regression. Document that fact in the bug report, that will be very helpful.
[00:20] <webchat51> Will do, and even better. I can get into KDE if I boot with 53 recovery.
[00:21] <webchat51> Thanks for the help, will report tomorrow
[00:21] <arraybolt3> Glad to help! Good luck, and thanks!
[06:14] <DDR> Well, just installed Kubuntu. Thank y'all for the quality software.
[06:14] <DDR> o7
 I really think it is the best distro (re @IrcsomeBot: <DDR> Well, just installed Kubuntu. Thank y'all for the quality software.)
 Stable customizable and light what else do i need really thank you for the quality
[10:41] <Hans_Bosch> Good morning, I have a problem with NVIDIA GTX 1650 Super on installation Kubuntu 2204
[10:42] <Hans_Bosch> is this graphics card not yet supported?
 Hans.  I am running Kubuntu on 1650 super and it's working without any hitches.  What is the problem you are facing?
[10:45] <Hans_Bosch> The installation was without problems, after reboot I get a black screen with an error about the NVIDIA card
[10:45] <Hans_Bosch> cannot log in to the system
 Do you get the grub menu?
[10:46] <Hans_Bosch> no
 ESC or press and hold shift key to get into grub menu
[10:48] <Hans_Bosch> should I reinstall without 3dr person drivers?
 Simple check the web for entering NOMODESET in the grub.  Detailed information is given.  That mostly solves your issue
[10:49] <Hans_Bosch> can I get back to you later?
 Sure
[10:49] <Hans_Bosch> thanks
 Copying to a flash from my laptop is so slow although i have ssd storage what is the problem and how to make it faster
[12:06] <oerheks>  Copying to a flash *is* slow, for all of us.
 It starts fast (100mg/s)  then it gets slower 'till (<10mg/s)
[13:43] <BluesKaj> Hi all
 dqof
[19:42] <mmikowski> keithzg: Hey just saw your post ("Uhh hmm I hadn't double-checked what kernel..."). Did the switch to 22.04 hwe fix the issue?  Please let me know either way.  If it didn't, then it is not kernel related, although the kernel firmware might be a different version which could lead to issues.
[19:58] <keithzg[m]> mmikowski: Yeah alas I just walked downstairs to my desktop PC and it's exhibiting one of the main problems I've seen since upgrading to 22.10, I can't interact with anything on the session, or at least none of my clicking causes any change to what it's displaying on screen in my Plasma/X11 session (I have only seen this problem on X11, it doesn't occur on Wayland although many *other* seemingly rendering-related problems occur on Wayland).
[20:00] <keithzg[m]> It's a weird state because it's clearly functional enough that the mouse cursor changes depending on whether it's overtop a selectable text field or not, although it's not changing when moving around corners of windows.
[20:00] <mmikowski> keithzg: We considered Wayland on the upgrade to 22.04 LTS for kfocus systems. Too many problems at that time, especially for Nvidia.  However, some significant blockers on Intel too.
[20:01] <mmikowski> Roll back to 22.04? Interim releases are always riskier and 3rd-party support is always a challenge.
[20:02] <keithzg[m]> Yeah mmikowski this is AMD (5500 XT 8GB DDR6) and Wayland has tons of issues, seems like the only sweet spot for Wayland is ARM and SailfishOS haha
[20:03] <mmikowski> Yeah, indeed. Sometimes one needs to stop beta testing and get work done.
[20:04] <mmikowski> What I do to feed my "show me the greatest" itch is to run interim releases in VBox (full screen is pretty good these days!).
[20:04]  * keithzg[m] uploaded an image: (105KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/kde.org/db0cfb0228fb62309d20219f6e89ffae1054f333/PXL_20221118_200013908.jpg >
[20:04] <keithzg[m]> Interestingly I see a rectangle in the corner of my screen that's exactly the right size to be a notification popup, but it's showing what's clearly the equivalent portion one of the wallpapers I have in my rotation instead
[20:07] <keithzg[m]> Oh trust me I'm staying LTS on my home server and everything at my work! But forcing myself to live with the bleeding edge on at least one of my systems has served me well in the past—especially since this desktop has basically identical hardware to my home server, so pain here makes for smooth sailing later on my machine where it actually needs to be running smoothly 24/7 :)
[20:07] <keithzg[m]> (I also have a Steam Deck now and this desktop was previously mostly my gaming PC, so it's even less crucial for me to get it working reliably again, I can plunk away at this problem for a long time)
[20:09] <mmikowski> keithzg: Sounds good. Well best of luck to you! Please let me know if you get it working, I'm interested what the problem is. It certainly sounds like an issue in the network stack. NFS mounts can also be trouble, so maybe there.
[20:12] <keithzg[m]> Yeah I wonder. Funny enough I don't actually have any network mounts permanently set up on this desktop; I use sshfs to mount the server disk pool, and for whatever reason I never set that up to be automatic vis autofs or whatnot, I have to do that manually each boot—and so I often don't, and I in fact didn't do so this time, so I accidentally have already checked if a network mount was the issue, hah!
[20:14] <mmikowski> keithzg[m]: Yeah, could be AMD stack too. Maybe try with iGPU (Intel?) and see if that fixes things.
[20:14] <keithzg[m]> Oh interesting, restarted SDDM and logged into a fresh Plasma/X11 session and Latte Dock didn't start this time.
[20:17] <keithzg[m]> mmikowski: Oh yeah good idea, yeah other than the new-ish AMD GPU this is very old hardware, an Intel i7 3770k is my CPU and that does have an iGPU, I should try that next. For now I'm gonna leave hardware rendering disabled (starting with 22.04 it's been disabled by default and I had to press alt+shift+F12 to enable it) and Latte Dock unlaunched, slightly unscientific test to be changing two variables but if it stays stable I'll start
[20:17] <keithzg[m]> working backwards towards repro again :D
[20:18] <mmikowski> keithzg[m]: sounds good. Again, best of luck!
[20:32] <keithzg[m]> Thank$ :)
[20:33] <keithzg[m]> Typo on that S there but I'm gonna stand by it
[21:06] <Guest51> Hi my name is Mike and I'm having a trouble and can find nothing that even sounds the same
[21:08] <Guest51> My kubuntu 20.10 was running good
[21:08] <oerheks> hi mike, ask, wait and see
[21:09] <Guest51> I left my question. If you need it over again I can
[21:15] <Guest51> I found out that there was a new version available so I down loaded the upgrade and when I went to burn it on to a disk I came up with a fault.  Since then I've tried Linux Mint, Kubuntu 19.3 and 20.1 and 21.1. I can get them running but none of them can get any thing to down load it always comes up with an error.
[21:21] <Guest51> Version 20.10 fails the same on three different computers in my family.
[21:23] <alkisg> Guest51: download whatever ubuntu 22.04 flavor you want; boot with it, and if you get an issue, mention the exact error message that you see
[21:23] <alkisg> Do not use old versions, they're unsupported
[21:25] <Guest51> I just downloaded a new version but I can't get my system to burn it to a disk. Is there something I can do I just don't know about?
[21:25] <alkisg> You want to use a CDROM or a USB stick?
[21:26] <Guest51> I triedbut the austen I have days theirs a fault.  All three of them react the same.  Even an old version I ran before
[21:27] <alkisg> I don't understand that sentence, can you rephrase it?
[21:27] <alkisg> You want to use a CDROM or a USB stick?
[21:28] <Guest51> All 3 of my systems have been running for more than a year
[21:28] <alkisg> And how is that related to what we're discussing? Are you a bot?
[21:29] <Guest51> Now itried to down load a new version and install it but my system will not burn it to a disk. I tried orbs disk and they all come up with the same error
[21:30] <alkisg> OK, I give up
[21:32] <Guest51> I tried other programs version 19.10 and 20.0 and none will run anything off of the disk I have used with out failing to continue with out a fault
[21:32] <Guest51> I've even tried Linux mint and it does the same thing
[22:04] <betablockr> Hi, I recently tried Kubuntu 22.10 but I had issues getting the Nvidia 520 open kernel driver to work on it
[22:05] <betablockr> I couldn't get it to work perfectly on 22.04 just wasn't avaliable in the additional drivers tab on 22.10
[22:05] <betablockr> I could get it to work perfectly on 22.04*
[22:10] <betablockr> Hello, wondered if someone could help. I tried installing the NVIDIA 520 open kernel on Kubuntu 22.10 but it's not avaliable in the driver tab and using command line results in Kubuntu breaking. It does however show in 22.04 and works fine just not on 22.10
[22:16] <callmepixelman> Hello everyone; this is my very first time trying to install Linux on my PC in parallel of Windows; and I just CAN'T make any ISO boot properly... I have no idea of what I could have been doing wrong. Could someone help me ?
[22:16] <betablockr> Do you have secure boot on?
[22:17] <callmepixelman> I don't think so; my BIOS is pretty bad to be honnest..
[22:17] <betablockr> You'll need to have secure boot disabled and for best measure disable fast boot
[22:18] <callmepixelman> Normally, that's what I did
[22:18] <betablockr> What program are you using to write the iso the the usb drive?
[22:18] <callmepixelman> BalenaEacher
[22:18] <callmepixelman> Currently on Win11
[22:19] <betablockr> So you plug the USB in, you adjust the boot order and the USB drive still won't boot?
[22:19] <betablockr> Sorry if I'm asking the total obvious but you'll be surprised what some people do xD
[22:20] <callmepixelman> Actually. GRUB shoes up, but when I select Ubuntu in the proposed options it crashes right away
[22:20] <callmepixelman> I'll send you a video wait
[22:20] <betablockr> It sounds like a possibility faulty USB drive, I'd run a disk part clean on it and then format and then run belana
[22:21] <callmepixelman> Even when I tried to install Kubuntu in safe graphics mode, when I try to boot it again; It just wont work
[22:21] <callmepixelman> I tried 3 USB sticks
[22:21] <mmikowski> callmepixelman: I was just going to suggest safe graphics. Go figure.
[22:21] <callmepixelman> 2 in USB2 and finally in USB3 where I can now see the Installer before it crashes
[22:21] <betablockr> I'm pretty sure secure boot must still be on or some other setting preventing booting from USB
[22:21] <callmepixelman> Probably
[22:22] <callmepixelman> HP BIOS is really not well made
[22:22] <betablockr> Ahh yeah navigating the HP BIOS is always tedious
[22:22] <callmepixelman> https://youtu.be/hXoy4PGQ5_I
[22:22] <callmepixelman> Here's a video of what's happening
[22:23] <callmepixelman> There's no GRUB error; just a plain crash
[22:23] <mmikowski> callmepixelman: I would definitely double check the ISO file checksums and reburn to the USB drive. Use the highest quality drive you can. Best check that first.
[22:23] <betablockr> Well that turned out great trying to load the url kicked me from the chat lmao
[22:24] <callmepixelman> Sorry ^^'
[22:24] <betablockr> Not your fault thing it's my browser lol
[22:24] <mmikowski> callmepixelman: I suspect corrupt image.
[22:24] <callmepixelman> mmikowski I tried the ISO on VirtualBox and I boots up perfectly
[22:25] <betablockr> It might be worth redownloading the ISO and flashing it again. Double check to make sure fast boot and secure boot are disabled, save and exit
[22:25] <mmikowski> callmepixelman: did you verify the md5sum? Real hardware uses different bits.
[22:25] <callmepixelman> I did not
[22:25] <callmepixelman> Maybe ? Just maybe; there's a problem with my USB driver that makes all flashes wrong
[22:26] <mmikowski> I suggest validating the ISO and USB as much as possible before progressing to the next likely culprit. I've seen the exact same behavior before on a low-quality USB drive.
[22:26] <mmikowski> ok, off to lunch. Best wishes!
[22:26] <callmepixelman> Thanks, I'll try my best
[22:32] <callmepixelman> I did the checksum on the ISO
[22:32] <callmepixelman> And it's right
[22:32] <callmepixelman> Based of hashed present here https://kubuntu.org/alternative-downloads/
[22:33] <callmepixelman> hashes*
[22:33] <callmepixelman> How could I "validate my USB" ? Or the ISO flashed on it ?
[22:40] <arraybolt3[m]> callmepixelman: Easiest way is to use balenaEtcher to do the flashing.
[22:40] <arraybolt3[m]> Basically you just read the entire start of the USB just after flashing it and make sure it matches with the original file perfectly. I believe that balenaEtcher does this (or something sufficiently similar).
[22:41] <callmepixelman> I'm already using BalenaEtcher
[22:41] <arraybolt3[m]> Then it's already verifying your USB.
[22:42] <callmepixelman> I tried 3 different USB stick, currently with a pretty good Samsung 32GB USB3.0 USB stick
[22:43] <callmepixelman> I don't think that could be a problem with the USB stick itslef
[22:43] <callmepixelman> itself*
[22:43] <callmepixelman> Maybe in my BIOS or IDK
[22:52] <Guest50> I have been trying to upgrade my 18.04 system to either 20.04 or eventually 22.04 and I keep getting an error in the upgrade process concerning a NETWORK problem but I have a wired connection to a DSL line and use it constantly without a problem.  Any help would be appreciated. Frank
[22:53] <mmikowski> callmepixelman: as asked by betablockr, did you ensure fastboot and secure boot were disabled in BIOS?
[22:54] <callmepixelman> SecureBoot if OFF; I don't find any FastBoot toogle in my BIOS tho...
[23:04] <callmepixelman> (Other account on Windows so I can restart this PC)


[00:40] <edgecase> last hope, oh my!
[00:43] <Keybuk> heh
[00:43] <edgecase> ok semantic question, on ubuntu mountall.conf takes care of mounting root fs rw, other fs, etc,
[00:44] <Keybuk> yes
[00:44] <edgecase> but, could it be assumed, that by definition, starting /sbin/init, means the rootfs is already mounted, possibly read-only?
[00:45] <Keybuk> yes
[00:45] <edgecase> i mean either a monolithic kernel, or an initrd's pivot_root, or say lxc container starting...
[00:45] <Keybuk>         /* Sanity check, the root filesystem should be already mounted */
[00:45] <Keybuk>         root = find_mount ("/");
[00:45] <Keybuk>         if (! root->mounted) {
[00:45] <Keybuk>                 nih_fatal ("%s", _("root filesystem isn't mounted"));
[00:45] <Keybuk>                 exit (EXIT_ERROR);
[00:45] <Keybuk>         }
[00:45] <Keybuk> even mountall assumes that :p
[00:45] <edgecase> so "start on startup" implies certain parts of FHS are available, yes?
[00:45] <Keybuk> edgecase: it implies that the root filesystem is read-only
[00:46] <Keybuk> we tend to assume that means you have /bin, /sbin, /lib and /etc
[00:46] <edgecase> but not /usr or /var
[00:46] <Keybuk> right
[00:46] <Keybuk> definitely not /usr, /var, /boot, /home, /proc, /sys, /dev, etc.
[00:46] <Keybuk> although with Upstart, you can assume /proc and /sys are mounted
[00:47] <edgecase> i'm just pondering the sysctl.conf race problem
[00:47] <Keybuk> and with recent kernels, /dev should be a devtmpfs
[00:47] <Keybuk> sysctl.conf race problem?
[00:47] <edgecase> race of setting things vs network interfaces coming up.  in Karmic for example
[00:48] <edgecase> there's a couple launchpad bug IDs
[00:48] <edgecase> i drew out an elaborate map of the issues, but let me try and focus on one aspect
[00:50] <edgecase> ok, with sysctl parameters, there are some that affect parts of the kernel which is only compiled in (not a module)
[00:50] <edgecase> but with many, it could be a module or compiled in, so there's no *right* place for sysctl.conf to be loaded
[00:52] <Keybuk> right
[00:53] <Keybuk> this is why I keep trying to eradicate that silly directory
[00:53] <Keybuk> but people keep insisting I put it back :p
[00:53] <edgecase> i wonder if the whole sysctl paradigm doesn't work so well
[00:54] <Keybuk> I tend to think that, since we have the kernel source, changing a sysctl default is best done by changing the default in the kernel
[00:54] <Keybuk> otherwise you have races like "the sysctl doesn't get set until after ssh is running and there's a security hole for a while"
[00:54] <edgecase> i'm thinking of network configs here, default isn't enough
[00:54] <edgecase> the system needs to be configurable
[00:55] <Keybuk> sure
[00:55] <Keybuk> but you can do one off-things like that with udev
[00:55] <edgecase> there's a couple real problems with sysctl tho,
[00:56] <Keybuk> SUBSYSTEM=="module", KERNEL=="i915", RUN+="echo 4 > /proc/sys/..."
[00:56] <edgecase> a NIC module could be compiled in, loaded by udev, or by the initrd... hard to put it's settings in one place had have it affect all 3
[00:57] <Keybuk> you should still get module events for them
[00:57] <edgecase> will that read sysctl.conf ?
[00:57] <Keybuk> you only don't get module events for built-ins with no parameters
[00:57] <Keybuk> no
[00:57] <edgecase> hence the sticky issue
[00:57] <Keybuk> and reading sysctl.conf 800 times during boot is out of the question, before you ask ;)
[00:58] <edgecase> workaround for the parameters i need is to set in /etc/network/interfaces and avoid the issue
[00:58] <edgecase> but i'm also interested in the bigger picture of upstart
[00:59] <edgecase> maybe just agree that sysctl isn't good for things not compiled-in
[01:00] <Keybuk> I don't think there's a picture of sysctl in the upstart painting yet
[01:00] <Keybuk> it's probably in the big white space off to the right with a doodle of someone's dog in it
[01:01] <Keybuk> sorry, have to run now
[01:02] <Keybuk> it's 1am here
[01:02] <edgecase> yeah, that's ok, i can workaround for the network stuff  i need
[01:03] <Keybuk> feel free to mail suggestions for how this could work to the ML
[01:03] <Keybuk> upstart is very much still under development
[01:03] <Keybuk> so lots of things can be improved
[01:03] <edgecase> d'oh!
[01:03] <edgecase> be around tomorrow?
[01:04] <Keybuk> yes, though earlier!
[01:04] <Keybuk> nite
[01:04] <edgecase> ok
[01:04] <edgecase> thx
[01:15] <edgecase> hmm hostname.conf, nothing depends on it,
[07:38] <NoReflex>  hello! I'm having some problems with upstart in karmic server 64bit. It won't start postgresql. I tried http://superuser.com/questions/98702/how-to-make-postgresql-start-at-boot-time-in-ubuntu but it didn't work. can I remove upstart? I'm afraid to test it because the machine is at a remote location and if I mess it up I won't be able to connect to it anymore
[07:38] <NoReflex> I can start postgresql using /etc/init.d/postgresql-8.4 manually after login. There are links in /etc/rc*.d to postgresql init script but for some reason it isn't started automatically after reboot
[08:21] <NoReflex> nothing?
[08:53] <elpargo> hi. I got a program that I want to "always be running" as it opens a http listener and waits for input "forever"
[08:53] <elpargo> I'm not entirely sure if I should be doing an upstart script for it.
[09:54] <ct529> hi everybody .... I am having serious problems with upstart on ubuntu 910 64 bit .... it would not start CUPS at all ....
[09:54] <ct529> CUPS is properly configrued in /etc/rcX.d and in /etc/init.d ....
[10:07] <NoReflex> ct529: I have the same problem with upstart on Karmic 64bit. On my machine it won't start postgresql server. I tried http://superuser.com/questions/98702/how-to-make-postgresql-start-at-boot-time-in-ubuntu without luck
[10:09] <NoReflex> ct529: as a workaround you can use rc.local ... not perfect but at least it works...
[10:11] <ct529> NoReflex: how?
[10:11] <ct529> NoReflex: yes, I have the same problem with mysql and postgresql
[10:12] <ct529> NoReflex: what do you see when you run the command runlevel?
[10:13] <NoReflex> ct529: what I did was to remove the links from /etc/rc*.d for postgres (sudo update-rc.d -f  postgresql-8.4 remove) and add the start command to rc.local
[10:13] <ct529> NoReflex: did you add it manually?
[10:13] <ct529> NoReflex: could you pleas elet me know what do you see when  you run the command "runlevel"?
[10:14] <NoReflex> ct529: runlevel gives N 2
[10:14] <ct529> NoReflex: so it works on your machine
[14:05] <edgecase> elpargo, are you asking if you should write upstart script instead of sysVinit script?
[14:17] <kimju> hello.. Is there some documentation on howto debug the bootup sequence? I'm getting bitten by bind9 trying to start (and failing) before the interfaces with ip-addresses that it is configured to listen-on / listen-on-v6 are brought up.
[14:19] <kimju> (this is happening on ubuntu karmic. someone else has reported it as bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bind9/+bug/510587 )
[14:21] <Keybuk> kimju: you should ask on #ubuntu about that
[14:21] <Keybuk> as far as I'm aware, bind9 in ubuntu is still using a sysvinit script and hasn't been converted to an upstart config file
[14:22] <kimju> Keybuk, ok, sorry. I just asked before you joined the channel if there is some documentation on how to debug the bootup sequence, as I'm getting bitten by that bug.
[14:23] <Keybuk> boot with --verbose on the kernel command-line
[14:34] <edgecase> Keybuk, top o' the morning to ya!
[14:35] <edgecase>  hmm hostname.conf, nothing depends on it,
[14:35] <edgecase> so a race is possible with anything that uses hostname/utsname
[14:37] <Keybuk> edgecase: hey
[14:37] <Keybuk> ah yes, it's still St Patrick's Month
[14:37] <edgecase> i will now continue the barrage!
[14:37] <Keybuk> edgecase: can you think of anything that cares about the hostname? :p
[14:37] <edgecase> syslog?
[14:38] <Keybuk> it doesn't really depend on it
[14:38] <Keybuk> it queries it for every log
[14:38] <edgecase> ah ok
[14:38] <Keybuk> so if the hostname changes, it works just fine
[14:38] <edgecase> aside, is there anything to graph the dependencies visually?
[14:39] <edgecase> would make investigation easier
[14:39] <edgecase> for rsyslog, if you log to remote host, might get unknown hostname for a bit?
[14:40] <Keybuk> no, but there's no reason it shouldn't be easy to write something that makes dotty output
[14:40] <edgecase> ok will look at dotty
[14:40] <Keybuk> for rsyslog, if you log to remote host, you have to wait for the network to come up first :p
[14:40] <Keybuk> and on the typical laptop system, that won't happen until a user logs in and unlocks the WPA key :p
[14:40] <edgecase> you noticed my nick is "edgecase" right?
[14:41] <edgecase> i tend to ignore "typical" cases :P
[14:41] <Keybuk> :)
[14:41] <edgecase> anyhow i'll admit hostname is a trivial case
[14:42] <edgecase> i notice mountall.conf emits many variations of filesystems
[14:42] <edgecase> is there a formal definition of those, that would allow splitting them up?
[14:42] <edgecase> "emits filesystem", does that mean root fs is read-write?
[14:43] <edgecase> appologies if that info is published already
[14:50] <edgecase> hmm, having /var not a mandatory part of root fs, and yet having /var/run mounted on top, seems problematic
[14:51] <edgecase> I question the original unix paradigm of "map everything to a file" for daemon .pid files, esp. if they are going to just map back to ram(disk)
[14:52] <edgecase> just use unix socket or even abstract namespace one
[14:54] <Keybuk> edgecase: did you do "man 7 filesystem" ?
[14:54] <Keybuk> problematic> not really
[14:54] <Keybuk> it requires some juggling
[14:54] <Keybuk> but it works
[14:54] <Keybuk> we have /var/run before and after /var is mounted
[14:54] <Keybuk> in fact, even as /var is mounting, /var/run is still present
[14:54] <edgecase> ok, juggling is acceptable if you don't drop the ball
[14:55] <Keybuk> *shrug*
[14:55] <Keybuk> if the boot sequence drops any ball, you can't boot
[14:55] <edgecase> badness++
[14:56] <Keybuk> why?
[14:56] <Keybuk> just write things to be reliable
[14:57] <edgecase> i'll just assume "even as /var is mounting, /var/run is still present" is relable, moving on...
[14:57] <Keybuk> yes
[14:57] <Keybuk> I could teach a course on Theory of Atomic Operations in Operating Systems 101 :p
[14:57] <Keybuk> I think about them a lot
[14:57] <Keybuk> the details:
[14:57] <edgecase> oh thank god
[14:58] <Keybuk>   we always have a /var/run directory on the root filesystem, under the /var directory
[14:58] <Keybuk>   we mount /var/run there on the first pass
[14:58] <Keybuk>   then when it's time to mount /var, we actually mount it somewhere else (/dev/.var I think :P)
[14:58] <edgecase> is there a mount --under option or something?
[14:58] <Keybuk>   we bind mount the current /var/run to /dev/.var/run
[14:58] <Keybuk> so now it's available at both /var/run and /dev/.var/run
[14:59] <Keybuk>   we then move the /dev/.var mount to /var
[14:59] <edgecase> all atomic?
[14:59] <Keybuk> each of those is atomic yes
[14:59] <Keybuk> since a mount() operation holds the VFS lock
[14:59] <edgecase> ooh, snap!
[14:59] <Keybuk> mountinfo will show /var/run mounted twice
[14:59] <Keybuk> with different parent mounts
[15:00] <Keybuk> if you unmount /var, for whatever reason, /var/run is still mounted under it
[15:00] <edgecase> i find no mountinfo or man 7 filesystem
[15:00] <Keybuk> edgecase: are you on lucid?
[15:00] <edgecase> karmic
[15:00] <edgecase> i guess i need to be bleeding edge to get bleeding edge
[15:00] <Keybuk> ah, I think I added that manpage in lucid
[15:00] <edgecase> i'll get lucid on a box shortly
[15:01] <edgecase> so i can discuss current state of things
[15:01] <Keybuk> mountinfo => /proc/self/mountinfo
[15:01] <edgecase> ah /proc/mounts on steroids
[15:02] <edgecase> ok so, what provides /proc and /sys, upstart, before running any scripts?
[15:02] <Keybuk> I don't quite understand your question
[15:02] <Keybuk> you asked me what kind of trees apples, oranges and buses grow on :p
[15:03] <edgecase> earlier you said assume /proc and /sys when running upstart
[15:03] <Keybuk> yes
[15:03] <edgecase> so what mounts them?
[15:03] <Keybuk> init
[15:03] <edgecase> before running any "start on startup" jobs?
[15:03] <Keybuk> yup
[15:03] <edgecase> ok just getting my bearings
[15:03] <Keybuk> Upstart uses /proc/self/fd to run shell scripts
[15:04] <Keybuk> so it needs /proc mounted
[15:04] <Keybuk> and since it's probably going to need /sys at some point soon, I figured I'd mount that too
[15:04] <Keybuk> /dev gets mounted by the kernel these days
[15:04] <edgecase> is there a formal definition of state when "startup" event fires?
[15:04] <edgecase> ie "you get root /proc and /sys"
[15:05] <edgecase> and "but don't assume /var and /usr etc"
[15:05] <Keybuk> no written down one I guess
[15:05] <edgecase> use the source luke
[15:05] <Keybuk> the root filesystem is read-only
[15:05] <Keybuk> you have /proc and /sys
[15:05] <Keybuk> you probably have /dev
[15:05] <edgecase> reading source takes time tho
[15:05] <Keybuk> you have /bin, /sbin, /lib and /etc
[15:05] <Keybuk> but nothing else filesystem wise
[15:06] <edgecase> aside, i'm thinking mountall should be broken up, it's a syncronisation point, which defeats some parallelism
[15:06] <Keybuk> it isn't a synchronisation point
[15:06] <Keybuk> that's kinda the idea
[15:06] <edgecase> make a dummy job with the same syncronisation properties for dumb legacy jobs,
[15:06] <Keybuk> it replaces the shell script nightmares we had before that were
[15:07] <edgecase> but let smart jobs pick off say just root fs being rw
[15:07] <Keybuk> they can
[15:07] <Keybuk>   on mounted MOUNTPOINT=/
[15:07] <edgecase> mountall emits events?
[15:07] <edgecase> oh vfs emits mount events i'm guessing
[15:08] <Keybuk> no, mountall emits them
[15:08] <edgecase> back to upstart?
[15:08] <Keybuk> yes
[15:08] <Keybuk> like filesystem for a start ;)
[15:08] <edgecase> ok, then back to all the emits in mountall.conf...
[15:09] <edgecase> any definition what they mean?
[15:09] <Keybuk> emits virtual-filesystems
[15:09] <Keybuk> emits local-filesystems
[15:09] <Keybuk> emits remote-filesystems
[15:09] <Keybuk> emits all-swaps
[15:09] <Keybuk> emits filesystem
[15:09] <Keybuk> emits mounting
[15:09] <Keybuk> emits mounted
[15:09] <Keybuk> (from lucid)
[15:09] <Keybuk> for any of those, "man 7 EVENT-NAME"
[15:09] <Keybuk> (in lucid)
[15:09] <edgecase> ok will look there
[15:09] <Keybuk> I've tried to be reasonable well behaved about writing man pages for events
[15:09] <edgecase> that's why i say sync point, they all get emitted in parallel
[15:09] <Keybuk> they don't
[15:09] <edgecase> but only after *all* of mountall is done
[15:09] <Keybuk> no they don't
[15:10] <Keybuk> they get emitted at completely different times
[15:10] <edgecase> ok so it's a declaration, "may emit..."
[15:10] <Keybuk> yes
[15:10] <edgecase> right-o
[15:10] <Keybuk> did you read "man 5 init" ? :)
[15:10] <Keybuk>        emits EVENT...
[15:10] <Keybuk>               All processes on the system are free to emit their own events by
[15:10] <Keybuk>               using the initctl(8) tool, or by communicating directly with the
[15:10] <Keybuk>               init(8) daemon.
[15:10] <Keybuk>               This  stanza  allows  a job to document in its job configuration
[15:10] <Keybuk>               what events it emits itself, and may be useful for graphing pos‐
[15:10] <edgecase> i see now that i'm way to pessimistic coming into this
[15:10] <Keybuk>               sible transitions.
[15:11] <Keybuk> emits is basically there to make writing that graphing tool you were asking about possible ;)
[15:11] <Keybuk> documentation only
[15:11] <edgecase> ok things look in order then
[15:12] <edgecase> i'm thinking then that just the .conf files can be optimized, to depend only on what they *really* need,
[15:12] <edgecase> to enable some more unusual use-cases than "user logs in then unlocks WLAN key..."
[15:12] <Keybuk> yes, certainly
[15:12] <edgecase> like, network booting etc
[15:12] <Keybuk> the difficulty comes in adapting to users
[15:12] <Keybuk> like we could write the job to actually depend on /usr rather than filesystem
[15:13] <edgecase> exactly
[15:13] <Keybuk> but that wouldn't work if a user decided to put a different filesystem for /usr/bin and for /usr/lib
[15:13] <edgecase> FHS doesn't allow that does it?
[15:13] <Keybuk> yes it does
[15:13] <Keybuk> FHS only says directories you shouldn't put on different filesystems
[15:13] <edgecase> ok well on that topic,
[15:13] <Keybuk> things like /usr and /var are free-for-alls
[15:13] <edgecase> windows has "reparse points"...
[15:13] <Keybuk> it's pretty common for example to have /var/lib or /var/spool on different drives
[15:14] <edgecase> true
[15:14] <edgecase> with unix, a (empty) directory *could* be a mount point, no way to know
[15:14] <edgecase> you can read fstab, and hope it's in sync with reality
[15:15] <Keybuk> reparse points => those are basically crazy symlinks iirc?
[15:15] <edgecase> takes place of fstab entries
[15:15] <edgecase> you get file dir symlink, and now reparse point fs object
[15:15] <edgecase> so, it's like an empty dir, because it has a name,
[15:15] <Keybuk> actually it might not even be in fstab
[15:15] <Keybuk> e.g. if you use LABEL to mean mountpoint
[15:15] <Keybuk> or if it's a removable device under /media
[15:15] <edgecase> but it's a type explicityly marking it as a mount point
[15:16] <edgecase> ok then that's an arguement for having reparse points in linux
[15:16] <edgecase> although 75% of the unix world will issue a death warrant to you
[15:16] <edgecase> for saying it
[15:16] <edgecase> the cases that are in fstab could be handled
[15:17] <edgecase> maybe that's a starting point
[15:19] <edgecase> but it's not /usr i'm interested in... but rather starting things that need root fs read-only and /var/run available, starting those asap
[15:19] <edgecase> anyhow i see that upstart is thankfully ahead of my expectations, i need to do some more reading now
[15:19] <edgecase> thanks for the good work!
[15:30] <Keybuk> local-filesystems should be ok for those on Ubuntu
[15:30] <Keybuk> ah
[15:30] <Keybuk> sorry
[15:30] <Keybuk> virtual-filesystems
[15:30] <Keybuk> virtual-filesystems means you have root read-only, and all the things like /var/run and stuff
[15:30] <Keybuk> we use it to start things like udev, dbus, etc.
[15:46] <edgecase> k thx
[17:33] <wasabi> oh hi/bye edgecase
[20:56] <halfline> sadmac: did you ever look at the display manager selection thing more?
[20:56] <halfline> i mean http://rstrode.fedorapeople.org/quest_to_find_a_dm.txt


[05:32] <solarion> anyone know what the status is with elantech touchpads?
[07:11] <wgrant> solarion: I believe it's waiting on kernel support - see bug #123775.
[07:33] <tjaalton> wgrant: I've uploaded inputproto and libxi to my ppa, xserver to follow. includes the API changes
[07:39] <wgrant> tjaalton: SHall we get people for whom xinput is erroring for to test them?
[07:39] <tjaalton> wgrant: no synaptics yet
[07:39] <tjaalton> or xinput
[07:39] <wgrant> Well, I meant after that.
[07:39] <tjaalton> yeah, sure
[07:40] <tjaalton> I'll do those next
[07:41] <wgrant> Great - once you've done those I'll do my bit.
[07:49] <wgrant> Do you know of any existing efforts to give g-c-c proper device-specific property support? I might consider working on that for Jaunty if nobody else can be bothered.
[07:53] <tjaalton> you'd have to ask gnome upstream about it.. or just declare that you're doing it :)
[07:59] <tjaalton> xinput done
[08:18] <tjaalton> Ng: you had problems with the synaptics settings being lost after resume? could you check the logfile if there's something new
[08:18] <tjaalton> after it happens
[08:25] <tjaalton> wgrant: synaptics updated & uploaded
[08:32] <wgrant> tjaalton: Excellent, I'll grab it in 9 minutes when LP finishes with it, hopefully.
[08:37] <tjaalton> wgrant: ok cool. I'll be around for ~2h before going to see WALL-E, so be quick to poke if there's something missing :)
[08:37] <tjaalton> uh, synaptics failed to build
[08:37] <wgrant> Urgh.
[08:37] <tjaalton> ../../src/synaptics.c:728: error: too many arguments to function 'XIRegisterPropertyHandler'
[08:38] <tjaalton> bah
[08:38] <seb128> tjaalton: hey, do you know if anybody is working on fixing xvfb?
[08:39] <tjaalton> seb128: hmm, no..
[08:39] <tjaalton> wgrant: ok, see the bug
[08:39] <tjaalton> wgrant: in a patch of mine
[08:42] <wgrant> tjaalton: I don't see any patches of yours in the bug...
[08:42] <tjaalton> wgrant: I mean, that build problem was due to a patch in the synaptics upload :)
[08:43] <tjaalton> buggy refresh
[08:43] <wgrant> Oh, you mean "ok, I see the bug". Right.
[08:43] <tjaalton> um, yes :)
[09:01] <tjaalton> wgrant: heh, the failure was due to the xserver being too old.. so I need to bump the build-dep
[09:02] <wgrant> tjaalton: Ah, you don't actually need to...
[09:02] <wgrant> You probably just started the build before the new xserver was published (*/2))
[09:02] <wgrant> Er, */20
[09:04] <tjaalton> well, it depends on the properties API, so it should be bumped anyway
[09:04] <wgrant> True.
[09:05] <Ng> tjaalton: it wasn't synaptic settings as such, I disabled my touchpad in the BIOS. It's the xinput settings I'm running for scrollwheelemulation that's being lost across suspend/resume, presumably (as I think you suggested) because the device disappears and re-appears
[09:08] <tjaalton> Ng: yes, probably because of that
[09:08] <tjaalton> so it'd need g-s-d support
[09:09] <Ng> yeah
[09:11] <wgrant> Generic property support in g-s-d would be rather useful.
[09:14] <Ng> which reminds me, I need to scan my rough idea sketch about a capplet for that stuff to show to tseliot
[09:15] <Ng> I reckon it's going to involve a bunch of nasty white/black listing because the xinput API seems to be awfully generic and unhelpful ;)
[09:16] <wgrant> Ah, tseliot is looking at implementing it in capplets too?
[09:16] <Ng> like every mouse-ish device seems to report having 32 buttons :/
[09:17] <Ng> wgrant: he said he was interested, yeah
[09:17] <Ng> I'm starting to lose my conviction that it's actually particularly necessary, unfortunately
[09:17] <wgrant> Why?
[09:18] <Ng> wgrant: touchpads not withstanding (mine is disabled, so I've not seen what properties they expose yet), it just seems like the options aren't particularly useful in a general use case
[09:19] <Ng> the only thing I can think might be handy would be a "help my scrollwheel isn't working, click here and then scroll up" to detect such things (since they're mapped as buttons and figuring out which buttons to put on the Z axis is non-obvious
[09:19] <wgrant> Ng: Hmmm... Disabling, middle button emulation, speed...
[09:19] <Ng> disabling yeah, but there are tricky aspects to that - I disabled my touchpad in the bios because if I disable it with the existing mouse capplet it also takes out the buttons on the trackpoint, leaving me with no mouse buttons at all
[09:20] <wgrant> Erm.
[09:20] <wgrant> I doubt it.
[09:20] <wgrant> Or does the trackpoint share the device?
[09:20] <Ng> I believe they are shared through the same device
[09:20] <wgrant> Ah. Stupidity.
[09:21] <Ng> I guess it's easy enough to stop people destroying their system with a "click here to confirm these settings otherwise they will revert in 30 seconds" thing, but still
[09:21] <Ng> I'm pretty sure most people don't care about middle mouse buttons, and even fewer care about scrollwheel emulation (which is the only bit I particularly care about)
[09:22] <wgrant> We could do that, or we could force people to have at least one checked.
[09:22] <Ng> yeah I think it should do that
[09:22] <Ng> and if you only have an external USB mouse enabled and unplug that, something else should become enabled
[09:22] <Ng> the only question is what. I can give you the correct answer for my laptop, but possibly not for some random Toshiba laptop on the desk next to me
[09:23] <wgrant> No, we alter the USB spec such that it has a hardware locking feature that doesn't let the device out when it's enabled. Much better solution.
[09:23] <Ng> haha :)
[09:23] <Ng> the buttons/scrolling thing is particularly distressing though
[09:24] <wgrant> Hm?
[09:24] <Ng> these days mice come with umpteen buttons and scroll in multiple directions, but afaik there's no way to actually tell what they are
[09:24] <Ng> other than asking lots of questions
[09:25] <wgrant> Is there really no spec to report them?
[09:25] <Ng> I could be wrong, but I don't think so. scroll events are just other buttons
[09:25] <wgrant> How do Those Other OSes do it?
[09:25] <Ng> drivers
[09:25] <wgrant> Scroll events can also be special, can't they?
[09:26] <wgrant> Delta-based, or something like that..
[09:26] <wgrant> So you have to install a custom driver?
[09:26] <wgrant> I can't say I've ever used a mouse with more than 5 buttons.
[09:26] <wgrant> (including scrollwheel)
[09:27] <Ng> generally you get a CD with your mouse and that has the software that sits on top of windows' generic mouse drivers and has a configurator for "this button means launch windows explorer, that one means go back a page in IE, etc"
[09:27] <wgrant> Ah. So there's no standard UI.
[09:27] <wgrant> We must be able to do better than that.
[09:28] <wgrant> I'm quite surprised that there's no obvious way to ask the mouse what it does.
[09:29] <Ng> I'm curious if there's a way to map back from the devices that X reports to their underlying HAL device
[09:29] <Ng> specifically to get the USB ids if there are any
[09:29] <Ng> that way there could at least be some kind of database of devices, or hooks for manufacturers to add their own
[09:29] <wgrant> I didn't see one. But it would certainly make sense...
[09:29] <wgrant> Maybe evdev could set a property.
[09:30] <wgrant> As long as we can have immutable properties...
[09:30] <Ng> with no disrespect to the authors of this API, it seems kinda like it's a "damn we need something because xorg.conf is going away", not "let's make a great way for people to configure their devices" :/
[09:31] <wgrant> What can you see as missing?
[09:31] <Ng> well a link to the HAL device seems like a must
[09:32] <wgrant> One would think so.
[09:32] <Ng> I'd like to know if the devices do actually expose any real information about how many buttons they have,b because all of the ones I have just say 32 which is clearly nonsense, so that property should probably either return "Unknown" or not exist
[09:32] <wgrant> Indeed.
[09:34] <Ng> with the disclaimer that I've been probing with xinput(1) more than with the raw API, I don't see a way to set per-device acceleration
[09:35] <wgrant> I haven't seen one... but that's not so much an issue with the API.
[09:35] <Ng> (which seems like it could be one of the main use cases for this for "ordinary" users (I'm thinking about where you have a touchpad and a usb mouse and high acceleration for the former makes no sense, but is entirely valid for the latter)
[09:35] <Ng> true, that's not an API design thing
[09:37] <wgrant> My main complaint is that there's no way to transmit floats - but that's more just because an XAtom doesn't exist for such things.
[09:37] <wgrant> That could be why there's no acceleration exposed.
[09:37] <Ng> can't that be solved with some powers of ten and ints? ;)
[09:38] <Ng> I think the two biggest user problems with input devices are "my scroll wheel(s) didn't Just Work" and "I want these extra buttons to do something useful". I don't know how to solve either of those things gracefully, but they should be solved. If that means g-s-t needs to listen for random button events and launch things, so be it
[09:38] <wgrant> I'd considered that... maybe some officially-sanctioned fixed-point representation.
[09:38] <Ng> gnome already has a capplet which listens for random keyboard events to launch commands
[09:39] <wgrant> metacity handles keyboard shortcuts, doesn't it?
[09:39] <wgrant> Those commands are fixed, though (something I disagree with).
[09:39] <Ng> hrm, yes that was a poor descriptoin, there's a capplet to *configure* something to listen for those events
[09:40] <Ng> I think there is value in having fixed ones, but there should be some generic ones too (which compiz supports, via command0-command10)
[09:40] <Ng> play/pause ones certainly make sense, since those are actual hardware buttons on a lot of systems now
[09:40] <Ng> forward/back seems to be quite common on funkier mice
[09:40] <Ng> tseliot: aha, just the person. we were just talking about the horrifying scope of an input device configurator ;)
[09:41] <wgrant> tseliot: I was going to implement one, but I hear you also had the idea.
[09:41] <tseliot> Ng, wgrant: yep
[09:41] <tseliot> wgrant: what are you planning to do?
[09:42] <tseliot> or how are you planning to do it?
[09:43] <wgrant> tseliot: Hack some more useful per-device XInput property support into at least gnome-mouse-properties and g-s-d. I'd thought a little about the UI, but not a whole lot further yet.
[09:44] <wgrant> To what depth are you asking?
[09:44] <tseliot> wgrant: I was thinking about using fdi files for each device which the user wants to configure
[09:44] <wgrant> Ah, to that depth. I see.
[09:44] <wgrant> I was thinking that g-s-d would do it.
[09:44] <wgrant> Can we reload fdi files on the fly?
[09:45] <Ng> http://mairukipa.tenshu.net/xinput-capplet.pdf was the idea I had (apologies for the awful scan, and PDF format ;)
[09:45] <wgrant> And can't they not set XI properties, just normal xorg.conf ones?
[09:45] <tseliot> hmm, I wouldn't know about using xorg.conf options in fdi files
[09:46]  * tseliot has a look at Ng's link
[09:47] <wgrant> tseliot: /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/20thirdparty/11-x11-synaptics.fdi looks like it has normalish xorg.conf properties to me. Or is there a tag name that I'm missing?
[09:47] <Ng> tseliot: to recap a bit what was said above, basically while sketching that I kinda realised there's not very much useful stuff that can be set at the moment, and there are problems with some of the options (e.g. disable my touchpad and I'll lose the buttons on my trackpoint, so a "click here within 30 seconds to confirm your settings" option seems wise ;)
[09:48] <tseliot> wgrant: right, that's a good example
[09:48] <tseliot> Ng: yes, it's what I was about to suggest
[09:48] <Ng> :)
[09:49] <Ng> one other thing... [09:38] < Ng> I think the two biggest user problems with input devices are "my scroll wheel(s) didn't Just Work" and "I want these extra  buttons to do something useful". I don't know how to solve either of those things gracefully, but they should be solved. If  that means g-s-t needs to listen for random button events and launch things, so be it
[09:49] <tseliot> also we cannot predict how many options a device will have available
[09:49] <Ng> but I didn't look at touchpads at all, that fdi file suggests they have lots of nice things to configure
[09:49] <tseliot> therefore we might want to use a treeview to contain all the options
[09:50] <Ng> hmm
[09:50] <Ng> that would be the easy option, certainly :)
[09:50] <tseliot> I was thinking about calling XInput from Python, unless we want to do the app all in C
[09:50] <wgrant> Aren't the capplets entirely C?
[09:50] <Ng> would a non-C capplet be accepted by gnome? I got the impression they don't like python
[09:51] <tseliot> I would like to make something which can be used separately from GNOME or KDE
[09:51] <wgrant> As much as I love Python, it's perfectly doable (and acceptable upstream) in C.
[09:51] <tseliot> so that we don't have to rewrite the same thing for KDE
[09:51] <tseliot> it's just an idea
[09:52] <tseliot> I would like to use my X-Kit to parse and create fdi files
[09:52] <tseliot> but X-Kit is written in Python
[09:52] <tseliot> or we can do it all in C
[09:52] <wgrant> It seems a but odd to do that when we've just got nice shiny XInput property support.
[09:52] <wgrant> *a bit
[09:52] <tseliot> and then I will port it to KDE
[09:52] <tseliot> yes, I know
[09:53] <tseliot> are you guys going to the next UDS?
[09:53]  * wgrant is hoping too... but doubts his application will be accepted.
[09:53] <wgrant> s/too/to/
[09:54] <Ng> I will be at UDS, but to work, so I can't really attend any sessions
[09:54] <tseliot> well, I applied for sponsorship too, so maybe we can meet there and talk about this
[09:54] <Ng> so my discussions will be limited to lunchtimes and dinner/beer ain the evenings ;)
[09:55] <Ng> I should be able to participate in fosscamp though, since our technical involvement with that is basically zero
[09:55] <tseliot> Ng: who do you work for?
[09:55] <wgrant> Sponsored people aren't at FOSScamp, are they?
[09:55] <Ng> tseliot: Canonical
[09:55] <tseliot> ah, ok
[09:55] <Ng> I'm a sysadmin, and some of us go to UDS to provide the SIP/icecast hookups :)
[09:56] <Ng> wgrant: dunno :/
[09:56] <wgrant> How is the area that you use in the Google campus for VoIP? I forget - but most of the other venues are shocking.
[09:57] <Ng> wgrant: we're in a new area of google this time, so that's unknown at present
[09:57] <Ng> it's a really hard problem, unfortunately
[09:57] <Ng> we have a polycom conference phone on each desk, with extension microphones on larger desks, but even then the acoustics of the rooms generally lend themselves very badly to a large group of people being recorded
[09:58] <Ng> (and really big desks work very badly, because you end up with three conversations at each end of the table, all of which are equal volume on the voip stream, making remote participation basically impossible :(
[09:59] <wgrant> The icecasts are usable in most cases (except for some really bad situations, but they're fortunately rare), and VoIP works well between VoIP participants... but VoIP-to-room has only been usable in three or four sessions for me.
[10:00] <Ng> yeah, I think we're going to discourage the remote SIP participation and push icecast and a per-track IRC channel (either someone in the session will watch that, or it'll be projected on the wall, hardware willing)
[10:01] <Ng> there may also be some other surprise experiments, hardware/google willing :)
[10:01] <wgrant> Heh.
[10:09] <tseliot> seb128: calling synaptic from the gnome-control-panel requires a text file containing something like "screen-resolution-extra\tinstall\n". Can I add the file to say, /usr/share/gnome-control-center/, or shall I make a temporary file (thus risking to overwrite an already existing temp file) and pass it to Synaptic?
[10:09] <seb128> tseliot: why does it need a text file?
[10:10] <seb128> tseliot: can't you use a *char which has the string?
[10:10] <tseliot> no, I can't pass it a string
[10:10] <tseliot> mvo knows why
[10:11] <seb128> we don't create temporary files for other softwares who call synaptic
[10:12] <wgrant> tseliot: Erm, how would it overwrite an existing temp file?
[10:12] <tseliot> seb128: --set-selections-file is what allows you to pass a file to synaptic
[10:12] <wgrant> If you're doing it that way, it is a security flaw and you're doing it wrong.
[10:13] <mvo> seb128: we do (unfortunately) because gksu does not let us use stdin in synaptic (it closes that fd), so t control it it needs a file
[10:13] <tseliot> wgrant: it can happen that a temp file with the same name exists. And I know that there is a right way to use temp files
[10:14] <mvo> tseliot: check debian/patches/80_gst-packages-common.patch from the gnome-system-tools package
[10:14] <tseliot> mvo: ok, thanks
[10:14] <mvo> tseliot: it has code that you can use (like create_temp_file that does the right thing etc)
[10:17] <tseliot> mvo: great, it's what I was looking for
[10:17] <mvo> excellent!
[13:44] <l33> hi
[13:44] <l33> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-mutouch/+bug/275650
[17:26] <jcristau> tjaalton, bryce: i uploaded x-x-i-mutouch today, fixes lp bug 275650, fwiw
[17:26] <jcristau> well, should fix, anyway :)
[17:26] <bryce> jcristau: ah excellent, I'll take a look
[17:37] <bryce> jcristau: the package isn't at ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/x/xserver-xorg-input-mutouch/ yet; is there I place it's held I can grab it from?
[17:38] <jcristau> http://incoming.debian.org/
[17:38] <bryce> thanks
[18:11] <bryce> sync request filed - #275650
[18:54] <solarion> wgrant: there's apparently a driver in existance
[18:55] <solarion> wgrant: the last update (besides mine) on bug 123775 is saying Alpha5 is out and it might work now
[18:55] <solarion> which it doesn't
[18:55] <solarion> I guess the question is, how can I move things along?'
[18:55] <solarion> the tap-to-click behavior is driving me crazy
[19:17] <bryce> hi tormod
[19:20] <tormod> hi bryce
[19:34] <mnemo> what prefix should I use if I install the xorg intel driver on ubuntu?
[19:34] <mnemo> just doing plain "sudo make install" doesnt seem to work
[19:37] <bryce> from debian/rules:  ../configure --prefix=/usr [...]
[19:41] <mnemo> bryce: hmm, what is debian/rules used for exactly? is it a build script? i know how to find the file and I see the prefix in there but I wonder what that file is used for? is it available for all debian packages?
[19:41] <bryce> yes it is a build script for generating .deb files
[19:42] <bryce> each debian package has a debian/rules file
[19:42] <mnemo> oh excellent, this is very useful info for me
[19:42] <mnemo> thanks bryce
[19:42] <bryce> standby, I can give you a link with more info
[19:44] <bryce> mnemo: this seems to be a fairly friendly tutorial on building debian packages in ubuntu:  http://women.debian.org/wiki/English/BuildingTutorial
[19:47] <bryce> a lot more info is available on this from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/ if you'd like to learn it in more depth
[19:51] <mnemo> thanks
[20:02] <mnemo> bryce: im reading the packaging howto now, and I got a question (if you got time)... why do people use "fakeroot"? i mean, why does a program required me to lie to it about being root when the operation actual can run successfully without root?
[20:03] <bryce> I don't know exactly, but all packaging systems I've used have required running as root
[20:05] <mnemo> strange, sounds like a bug to me :D i'll try to google for the answer later
[20:06] <bryce> perhaps non-root doesn't have sufficient access to the packaging system internals
[20:06] <mnemo> but fakeroot has?
[20:06] <bryce> actually, it is possible to build packages with non-root via debuild
[20:07] <bryce>  debuild -i -uc -us $pkg.dsc
[20:07] <bryce> but that may use fakeroot internally, not sure
[20:07] <mnemo> wait, yeah maybe the same binary is used to read and write some package data and to write the package data root might be required and instead of elevating in the middle of the program they decided that the program always will require root
[22:00] <tjaalton> bryce: apart from evdev, all the drivers include their own fdi file
[22:00] <tjaalton> bryce: I'll reply to the wacom thread tomorrow :)
[22:00] <bryce> tjaalton: ah ok
[22:01] <tjaalton> there seems to be some misinformation that needs to be corrected
[23:04] <wgrant> solarion: The driver isn't in Linus' tree, so this isn't an X problem.
[23:04] <wgrant> It's not in Linus' kernel, so it's not in our kernel by default, so it's a kernel problem.
[23:08] <pwnguin> which wacom thread?


[00:01] <xnox> thedoctor: jtaylor: the way we deal with flash, is we have a "downloader" package which offers to accept adobe's conditions then downloads tarball and unpacks it.
[00:01] <xnox> thedoctor: jtaylor: nothing is stopping you to write a wrapper script which does $ add-apt-repository http://opera.... and install that.
[00:01] <xnox> package it and upload to ubuntu software centre..... =)
[00:03] <thedoctor> thats a good idea!
[00:03] <thedoctor> now im a little confused with the Ubuntu Pakaging
[00:03] <thedoctor> what makes MOTU different from a regular Ubuntu Software Pakaging
[00:04] <thedoctor> they just manage the universe?
[00:04] <jtaylor> yes
[00:05] <thedoctor> okay...
[00:06] <jtaylor> universe is mostly pure debian imports
[00:06] <jtaylor> motu takes care that the stuff works in ubuntu (to best effort)
[00:06] <jtaylor> the package maintenance is in debian
[00:06] <xnox> thedoctor: you mixing a few concepts here. Ubuntu Software Packaging ~= how to create source & binary packages that will work/be installable on ubuntu.
[00:07] <xnox> thedoctor: the rest are teams that take responsibilities in doing such development work in various ubuntu archives and pockets of which we have many, each serving a different purpose.
[00:07] <xnox> motu is one of those teams / social structure in Ubuntu.
[00:09] <thedoctor> okay yeah
[00:09] <thedoctor> so for instance if i were wanting to contribute to motu
[00:09] <thedoctor> could i just start on their bugs page at launchpad and work at the packages listed?
[00:10] <xnox> if you want to fix bugs in universe packages that's one thing you can do.
[00:10] <xnox> https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
[00:10] <xnox> doing merges from debian is also good for universe
[00:10] <jtaylor> doing security uploads for universe is also an important thing
[00:10] <xnox> fixing build failures in universe are also good http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/#universe
[00:11] <xnox> adding autopackage testsuites is also great
[00:14] <thedoctor> oh wow this is great! i didnt really know where to start
[00:15] <Laney> not sure about merges as a place to start
[00:16] <thedoctor> Laney: yeah? whys that
[00:16] <cjwatson> I'd tend to disrecommend merges as a place to start - sometimes they're easy, sometimes they're very difficult, hard to predict difficulty level in advance without experience, and in any case it's often just as hard to review somebody else's merges as to do it oneself
[00:16] <cjwatson> Other things are probably more productive
[00:16] <cjwatson> Plus we encourage the last uploader to do their merges, in general, as a point of responsibility
[00:17] <thedoctor> okay ill start with bug page on launchpad then?
[00:17] <cjwatson> And encouraging newcomers to do merges has led to a good deal of friction as people submitted merges for things where they clearly didn't know about quirks of maintenance of the packages in question
[00:17] <cjwatson> It's just a troublesome area
[00:20] <Laney> You'll become aware of some of the things you need to consider when performing merges as you do other things. They're a lot less painful when you have a more holistic view of what's going on, which you get through experience.
[00:20] <Laney> I admit that I did find it a rather tempting list to work through when I was getting started, though
[00:23] <Laney> thedoctor: It would be best to try and find a task based on your personal interests and goals
[00:24] <thedoctor> well honestly I love bug squashing so ill start there
[00:24]  * Laney has made way too much houmous again
[00:24] <thedoctor> thanks for your help!
[00:25]  * xnox thinks Laney should move closer to london and feed me occasionally. i shall promise to be a good cat in return.
[00:25]  * Laney also ate too much while trying to get the mix right and now feels queasy
[00:25] <Laney> xnox: you know, a cat is the thing I want most and am not allowed :(
[00:25] <Laney> sometimes renting sucks
[00:26] <xnox> Laney: live in landlord with existing pets or JFDI, as one of my friends did and kept a rabit in student accomodation with regular checks
[00:26] <Laney> haha
[00:27] <xnox> Laney: also "children before cats & dogs"
[00:27] <Laney> I'll tell my girlfriend
[00:27] <xnox> as my mom says to me. "Cause you need somebody to walk & feed them, then all you have to do is pet them"
[00:28] <Laney> "you know that cat that we want? Well xnox says there's something we have to take care of first ..."
[00:28] <xnox> I'm sure it will be a fun dinner conversation ;-)
[00:29] <Laney> I consider it an incentive to save up for a house deposit
[00:31] <xnox> i'm not saving for a house deposit.... i pay rent in london instead =/
[00:31] <Laney> ha
[00:31] <Laney> the glamorous east midlands calls you
[00:33] <xnox> one day i might move back to cottingham... only if they get virgin cable.
[00:34] <Laney> did I tell you that Rosie comes from very close to Cott?
[00:34] <Laney> infact she went to Cottingham High School
[00:35] <Laney> what's that great shop there? all sorts or something
[00:35] <xnox> yeap, you did. =)))))
[00:37] <Laney> good old east riding
[00:40] <xnox> me is confused why right move is showing me 2M houses.
[00:41] <xnox> two bed houses for 40k
[00:41] <xnox> not bed.
[00:41] <xnox> not bad.
[00:42] <Laney> /not/ bad?!
[00:43] <xnox> as in cheap, the property it self is soso.
[00:43] <xnox> this one is nicer - 65k. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-35965141.html?backListLink=%2Fproperty-for-sale%2Fmap.html%3FlocationIdentifier%3DOUTCODE%255E1126%26sortByPriceDescending%3Dfalse%26radius%3D1.0%23_includeSSTC%3Don%26auction%3Dfalse%26locationIdentifier%3DOUTCODE%255E1126%26maxPrice%3D70000%26previousSearchLocation%3DHU16%26radius%3D1.0%26searchLocation%3DHU16%26searchType%3DSALE%26sortByPriceDescending%3Dfalse%26useLocat
[00:43] <xnox> ionIdentifier%3Dfalse%26box%3D-0.41130%2C-0.35328%2C53.76414%2C53.80242%26popupPropertyId%3D35965141%26mapType%3DMap&fromMap=true
[00:44] <xnox> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-35965141.html
[00:44] <xnox> nicer link ^
[00:44] <Laney> huh, that's not bad
[00:45] <xnox> and I know the area. It's very good and convenient. You'd still want a car but there are pleanty of medium size saintsburys and stuff around.
[00:46] <Laney> I put my home postcode in and the first page is all properties > £1m
[00:46] <xnox> "click sort by cheapest first"
[00:46]  * xnox thinks it does > 1m for any post-code by default.
[00:47] <xnox> also limit top price by something reasonable e.g. 300k and then options are at least tiny bit realistic.
[00:47] <Laney> I put Alconbury in instead - bit more reasonable
[00:47] <xnox> ack.
[00:47] <xnox> I think if you are happy to move, there are plenty of corners in britain with good transport, nice area and cheap.
[00:48] <Laney> not that I'd move back home
[00:49] <xnox> I was thinking to put my stuff in storage & rent a place in Malta for next summer.
[00:50] <xnox> + invite people over.
[00:50] <xnox> hacking sprints on the beach?! =)
[00:52]  * Laney packs his shorts
[00:52] <xnox> my other plan is to move to SF
[00:53] <xnox> you can see how I am undecided.
[00:53] <Laney> so London, Hull, Malta, or San Francisco ...
[04:17] <ScottK> xnox: Before you move to Malta ask Riddell what happens when you work for Canonical and think you can just move to a small island somewhere.
[04:18]  * ScottK is actually in San Francisco right now.
[13:53] <smartboyhw> Hi I am going to do the packaging for Bug 1077354
[16:39] <micahg> Logan_: is there any specific reason you filed Bug #1077575 ?  those types of removals are semi-automatic when there's no diff
[16:54] <Logan_> micahg: Hmm, alright - I'm just surprised the removal from Ubuntu hasn't been done already, since it was removed from Debian back in February 2012.
[16:55] <micahg> Logan_: orly? yeah, that might be a problem then
[16:55]  * micahg takes another look
[16:56] <micahg> Logan_: ok, I'll add it to the archive admin queue then, thanks
[16:56] <Logan_> Alright, np.
[17:57] <cjwatson> Logan_: usually if it hasn't been done yet it's because there were rdeps at the time.  in such cases, yes, fine to raise explicitly.
[17:59] <Logan_> cjwatson: Alright, cool.
[18:09] <PaoloRotolo> Hi all!
[21:11] <ESphynx> Hey guys, my ecere-sdk package won't install on a 64 bit Quantal... I've already produced a new package to address that issue and uploaded it to mentors.debian.net... Should I file an Ubuntu bug as well?
[21:29] <iulian> If it doesn't install on Debian either, then it'd be good to get it in Debian first and then sync it from there.
[21:35] <tumbleweed> if you want to SRU it to quantal, you'll need an Ubuntu bug
[21:36] <tumbleweed> of course, it has to be fixed in raring first, so yes, do tha tthrough debian
[21:36] <ESphynx> tumbleweed: yes it has to be fixed in raring as well, and I'm hoping for a Quantal SRU, and hopefully it will be synced from Debian, but was just wondering whether I should file a bug already or wait until it's in Debian =)
[21:38] <tumbleweed> the ordering is unimportant
[21:39] <ESphynx> Just thought it may help getting things moving :P
[21:39] <tumbleweed> but if you file the bug before you upload to Debian, you can reference the bug in the changelog, so that's what I'd do
[21:39] <tumbleweed> filing a bug won't make anything happen any faster
[21:40] <ESphynx> well the package is waiting @ mentors.debian.net/package/ecere-sdk , I can't upload to Debian since i'm not a DD :P
[21:41] <tumbleweed> have you asked your previous sponsor?
[21:41] <ESphynx> xnox was busy this week :P
[21:41] <ESphynx> He said maybe someone else might upload it before he does =)
[21:42] <ESphynx> was just wondering whether having a bug for something that was broken in Ubuntu was the way to go :)
[21:43] <tumbleweed> as I said, you'll need it at some point, so now is as good a time to file it, as any
[21:44] <ESphynx> allright =)
[21:44] <ESphynx> thanks
[22:18] <xnox> busy & tired, first week back from uds. Now i am also shattered after winning at volleyball 3-0.
[22:18] <xnox> =)
[23:23] <ESphynx> xnox Oh nice :) congrats!!
[23:23] <ESphynx> i've been making wine myself: http://ecere.com/tmp/labelv5.png


[00:20] <lfaraone> slangasek: could you approve the 3 SRUs in bug 771804? (I uploaded one of them accidentally 4 times because of the error given by bug 757248 )
[01:24] <slangasek> lfaraone: pianobar srus accepted; the pithos one also includes a change for bug #705271, but there's no SRU info in this bug (it's not even filed against the Ubuntu package) - could you fix this up?
[01:45] <lfaraone> slangasek: oh my, that's the wrong bug. or rather, a duplicate of the bug
[01:54] <lfaraone> slangasek: that bug is now a duplicate of bug 771804 which has the correct SRU info
[01:54] <lfaraone> slangasek: duplicate of bug 759699
[05:49] <luciano> hi all, i have a question
[05:49] <luciano> i solved a typo bugfix in debian
[05:49] <luciano> and create a debdiff..
[05:49] <luciano> should i just attach to bug's report on Debian ?
[05:49] <luciano> or do someting else ?
[06:14] <Rhonda> Just attach it to the bugreport in Debian and tag it p+ patch.
[06:14] <Rhonda> Are you familiar with working with the Debian BTS? There are somewhere the logs of my classroom session about it.
[06:15] <Rhonda> luciano: ``
[06:15] <luciano> Rhonda, no, i'm not really familiar with BTS
[06:16] <luciano> where are logs of that session ?
[06:20] <luciano> Rhonda, i'll take a look at http://wiki.debian.org/HowtoUseBTS
[06:20] <luciano> Rhonda, thanks for your help
[06:30] <Rhonda> That's one of the logs, yes ;)
[07:46] <dholbach> good morning
[07:48]  * lucidfox waves
[08:22] <iulian> Morning dholbach.
[08:22] <dholbach> hey iulian
[15:20] <nicoulaj> Hi, just wanted to know, is REVU still the standard to submit new packages to Ubuntu repositories ? I see there are packages awaiting validation here since 2009
[15:20] <nicoulaj> the standard way*
[17:31] <tumbleweed> bdmurray: bug 773391
[17:32] <bdmurray> tumbleweed: I've seen it thanks
[17:32] <yofel> :)
[17:34] <tumbleweed> cool :)
[17:48] <lucidfox> When trying pbuilder-dist oneiric create, I get this error:
[17:48] <lucidfox> E: Couldn't download dists/oneiric/main/binary-amd64/Packages
[17:48] <lucidfox> what should I do?
[17:49] <lucidfox> weirdly, reloading http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/oneiric/main/binary-amd64/, sometimes I get the files and sometimes I don't
[17:49] <lucidfox> mirrors?
[17:50] <lucidfox> ah well, creating with ru.archive.ubuntu.com as a mirror resolved it
[17:55] <lucidfox> Which gcc version will oneiric use as default? 4.6?
[17:55] <ScottK> Yes
[17:56] <lucidfox> good!
[17:56] <ScottK> It's already default.
[18:00] <lucidfox> Huh. What the heck? http://paste.ubuntu.com/600863/
[18:08] <lucidfox> okay, an update resolved it
[20:10] <gaspa> hi, can I see somewhere in launchpad the same infos of the -changes lists?
[20:11] <tumbleweed> gaspa: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+queue?queue_state=3
[20:22] <lucidfox> If a package synced from Debian was removed in Debian, will it be automatically removed from Ubuntu too?
[20:23] <Laney> semi-automatically
[20:23] <Laney> there's an archive admin script
[20:38] <gaspa> tumbleweed: great, thanks.
[21:45] <kl__> Hi when I try to build a package source I get this error http://pastebin.com/Wvv2fTFg
[21:55] <Laney> kl__: you need to install gnome-pkg-tools
[21:57] <kl__> Laney: thanks I figured how remove the comment. But now I cannot remove a patch.
[21:59] <kl__> to disable a patch I just comment the series file right?
[22:05] <arand> kl__: Yea, or just remove the name from there, I think is proper
[22:17] <kl__> arand: did not work had to pop all patches then remove it.. and push them back
[22:18] <arand> kl__: Ah, yes, since if you remove a patch it won't pop it if it's already applied then.


[08:22] <stefano> this is only for bash commands (which you would enter in a konsole)
[08:22] <triode> ok, I think I got ti
[08:22] <stefano> for kde-apps you can create shortcuts (rightclick->new->shortcut) to do so
[08:22] <triode> and put the shortcut in that folder?
[08:22] <stefano> yes
[08:23] <triode> cool, ill try it now!
[08:23] <stefano> everything in this folder will be executed, but bashscripts cant open x apps because they dont know on which screen they should open them or so (i dont really know)
[08:23] <stefano> good luck bro
[08:24] <triode> i see
[08:24] <triode> one last question:
[08:24] <stefano> and i have one last advice
[08:24] <triode> I need to run one of the commands as sudo
[08:24] <stefano> thats easy, but wait a sec
[08:24] <triode> ok
[08:25] <stefano> the commands are executed one after another, so if you first type kate and then konqueror, the konqueror will appear when you close kate
[08:25] <triode> oh, thats good to know
[08:25] <stefano> if you need to open a program which should run all the time, make another script
[08:25] <nalioth> dont open kde apps with sudo, use kdesu
[08:25] <nalioth> !kdesu
[08:25] <ubotu> somebody said kdesu was :Use kdesu to run applications with root priveleges, when you  have to. Do *not* do sudo {GUIAPP}; you can muck up your permissions and the config files.   If it is not working, you may need to run "sudo adept-updater "
[08:26] <stefano> but not in scripts i guess it should be enough to create the script as root
[08:26] <stefano> like this: kmenu->execute command-> "kdesu konqueror" and the rest
[08:26] <triode> I need to run two shell commands, one of them as sudo
[08:26] <triode> (the kate and konqueror were just examples)
[08:27] <stefano> okay, the command that should ran as sudo must be in a different bashscript
[08:27] <stefano> and this script has to be owned by root
[08:27] <triode> oh, ok
[08:27] <stefano> open a konqueror as root and edit the file preferences
[08:27] <stefano> (to do so, type kdesu konqueror)
[08:27] <triode> ok, give me a sec
[08:27] <stefano> yes
[08:28] <triode> what if I do "sudo pico filename" and write the commands, will that make the file owned by root?
[08:28] <stefano> i dont know, maybe some pro can help, if a script is owned by root, are the commands executed by root too?
[08:28] <dannythm> hello
[08:29] <dannythm> I'm trying to do a dual boot win2k/kubuntu with grub
[08:29] <stefano> yes triode
[08:29] <dannythm> I have kubuntu in hda1 and win2k in hdb1
[08:29] <nalioth> triode: sudo is ok in a konsole
[08:29] <triode> thanks!
[08:29] <dannythm> and modified the menu.lst to do the dual boot
[08:29] <dannythm> but win2k still don't boot
[08:29] <nalioth> triode: sudo works great for console apps, not gui ones
[08:29] <triode> how can I test the files I created? do I need to reboot/
[08:29] <triode> ?
[08:29] <dannythm> can anyone help me?
[08:30] <stefano> but you must open a konqueror with kdesu because you have to make it executable, or you type "sudo chmod +X filename" (i dont know if the x must be capital or small)
[08:30] <triode> nalioth: thanks, I think I got it, now I have to try it
[08:30] <nalioth> dannythm: it wasnt set up for dual boot when you installed?
[08:30] <triode> ok
[08:30] <dannythm> nalioth: I intaleed win2k after kubuntu
[08:30] <triode> do I still need the "sudo" part of the command if the file is owned by root?
[08:30] <nalioth> ubotu: tell dannythm about recover
[08:30] <stefano> dannythm: thats ya fault :>
[08:31] <stefano> no, just the command triode
[08:31] <stefano> or maybe
[08:31] <stefano> i dont know :> try without
[08:31] <dannythm> stefano: hmm.... I know it can be done both ways, it's only the way you change the menu.lst
[08:31] <triode> what I am concerned with is the pwd, i don't want it to ask me a pwd
[08:31] <stefano> yes then leave sudo
[08:32] <stefano> dannythm: okay, i never had to do so :>
[08:32] <_root_> hi
[08:32] <stefano> oh damn root is here
[08:32] <_root_> how are you?
[08:32] <stefano> xD
[08:32] <dannythm> i can post in #flood the commands I used in he menu.lst to set the win boot
[08:33] <stefano> i have no clue about this stuff, sorry
[08:33] <triode> i can't change the "is executable", it gives an error (just the file name)
[08:33] <triode> (in kdesu konqueror window)
[08:33] <stefano> what error?
[08:33] <triode> nevermind I think it wasn't an error
[08:34] <stefano> then try the chmod way ("sudo chmod +x [or +X]  /filename/with/path/")
[08:34] <dannythm> stefano: I have wina nd kubuntu in differnt hd's
[08:34] <dannythm> stefano: the mbs is still from ubuntu
[08:34] <dannythm> stefano: mbr
[08:34] <stefano> you would have more space on ya pc if you would delete windows :>
[08:34] <nalioth> dannythm: did you see the URL ubotu sent?
[08:34] <triode> stefano, thank you. Ill restart to test
[08:34] <stefano> okay youre welcome
[08:35] <dannythm> nalioth: yes, and it don't works for me
[08:35] <dannythm> nalioth: I only need to knw how to modfy the menu.lst to boot up both systems
[08:35] <dannythm> nalioth: using grub
[08:37] <nalioth> dannythm: edit your menu.lst, the URL should tell you how
[08:39] <DjDarkman> hy ,how can i delete read only files from ntfs partitions?
[08:39] <stefano> as root
[08:39] <stefano> i guees
[08:39] <DjDarkman> same thing
[08:40] <stefano> well then, sorry i dont know
[08:45] <triode> i'm back, I can't get the sudo command to work
[08:54] <triode> I can't get the "sudo" Autostart script working, I think it's pwd related because if I run "./scriptname" (script that holds the "sudo" command), i am prompted for the pwd, after entering it, it runs perfectly, how can I bypass the pwd request?
[09:06] <Knowerrors> Anybody know some websites to go to sign up to get on alot of email spam lists?
[09:08] <GnarlyBob> that sounds like it's motivated by evil
[09:09] <covalence> or to feed a bayesian filter
[09:10] <Knowerrors> I want to flood my old free yahoo email address so it closes
[09:10] <stefano> lol
[09:10] <GnarlyBob> if you just leave it, yahoo closes it after a few months
[09:10] <AoP> lol
[09:10] <GnarlyBob> in fact, I think you can just close it somewhere on their page
[09:10] <Knowerrors> which will prob take forever, since they upped there storage limit
[09:10] <Knowerrors> really
[09:10] <GnarlyBob> I know email is disabled on my yahoo profile
[09:11] <stefano> send black(e)mail with it and call the police, then they will close down the account :D
[09:14] <Knowerrors> GnarlyBob: interesting, I'll have to check my profile/options
[09:14] <Knowerrors> I switched to Gmail, which is 10x faster and cleaner
[09:20] <DizzyDiz> Hello
[09:20] <y_o_u> hello
[09:20] <DizzyDiz> This is my first time using the #kubuntu channel
[09:20] <DizzyDiz> I'm looking for networking help
[09:20] <y_o_u> anyone here willing to help out a kubuntu n00b get a wireless pci card working, or point me to a useful "howto"?
[09:26] <bipolar> y_o_u: what card?
[09:26] <delltony> can someone help me in reinstalling grub trying to follow wiki but lost on the mount /dev/hda3 /boot/
[09:29] <chino[server] > how do i update apt ?
[09:32] <jaheire> hi
[09:32] <jaheire> whats my nick ?
[09:33] <jaheire> i cant see it
[09:33] <jaheire> is it jaheire
[09:35] <Knowerrors> jaheire: yes
[09:35] <Knowerrors> whats a good free people search? find address or phone number based on name
[09:36] <DizzyDiz> Chino, do you wanna do something like "apt-get install apt"?
[09:37] <DizzyDiz> I'm having trouble getting my Kubuntu install to resolve DNS names.
[09:38] <DizzyDiz> Can anybody advise?
[09:38] <bipolar> DizzyDiz: can you ping your dns server?
[09:38] <DizzyDiz> Let me try
[09:38] <DizzyDiz> Yes
[09:38] <DizzyDiz> But I can't ping any machines by DNS name
[09:39] <bipolar> check /etc/resolv.conf and see if your dns servers are listed there.
[09:39] <DizzyDiz> If I boot into my Windows partition on the same machine and use the same DNS ip I can ping machines by DNS name
[09:39] <DizzyDiz> Let me check
[09:40] <DizzyDiz> Yes they're in there
[09:41] <bipolar> try "nslookup google.com"
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Ccc@ccc:~$ nslookup google.com
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Server:         <IP_ADDRESS>
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Address:        <IP_ADDRESS>#53
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Non-authoritative answer:
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Name:   google.com
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Address: <IP_ADDRESS>
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Name:   google.com
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Address: <IP_ADDRESS>
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> That looks like it worked.
[09:42] <bipolar> then dns is resolving... ping google.com doesn't work?
[09:42] <DizzyDiz> Let me try
[09:42] <nalioth> DizzyDiz: please dont paste in here
[09:43] <DizzyDiz> Oh yeah, that does work
[09:43] <DizzyDiz> Pinging google.com works
[09:43] <DizzyDiz> Maybe it's a setup issue with our office network
[09:43] <DizzyDiz> I can't ping internal machines by DNS name
[09:43] <bipolar> ohh....
[09:43] <DizzyDiz> External sites do ping.
[09:44] <DizzyDiz> Sorry for pasting
[09:44] <bipolar> the problem is that your network is not using dns then.
[09:44] <bipolar> your network is using wins
[09:44] <DizzyDiz> Is that so?
[09:44] <bipolar> so the windows machine's can ping but they dont use dns to do it.
[09:44] <DizzyDiz> Would that explain why it works on Windows but not on Linux
[09:44] <bipolar> right.
[09:45] <DizzyDiz> Thank you much
[09:45] <DizzyDiz> Can Linux use Wins? or do I have to move the mountain to Mohammed and change our netowork?
[09:45] <bipolar> no prob. tell your admin to swtich to dns. :) MS doesn't even use wins any more.
[09:45] <bipolar> I think you can... not sure how
[09:45] <DizzyDiz> Wow
[09:45] <bipolar> look at the samba tools
[09:45] <DizzyDiz> That makes me feel a little better
[09:45] <DizzyDiz> Thanx
[09:46] <kkathman> bipolar: actually they do, but only for exchange server and internal networking
[09:46] <bipolar> kkathman: ah... I wouldn't know about exchange.
[09:47] <kkathman> thats the only time they use it I believe
[09:47] <kkathman> Only reason I know, is that my company uses exchange server, and we have to have the wins set in Outlook to get to mail/network folders, even if we use a VPN
[09:47] <bipolar> yikes
[09:47] <kkathman> yah
[09:47] <bipolar> that sucks
[09:47] <kkathman> bleh
[09:48] <bipolar> I've never had a windows server at our office. Was novell, now linux.
[09:48] <bipolar> but I did have to work with wins a few times.
[09:49] <kkathman> near obsolete for sure
[09:50] <NRG^MaSSaCre> Hello
[09:51] <NRG^MaSSaCre> can someone tell me how to make my kubuntu linux server to a router?
[09:57] <AoP> Say if I was running a game, I started a new session and was useing Kopete on that, would the GFX all still be loading and stuff?
[09:58] <bipolar> O.o
[09:58] <AoP> lol stupid question?
[09:59] <bipolar> I don't understand it :)
[09:59] <AoP> I dont know if I do either =o
[10:00] <bipolar> you want to know if you'll get hardware accelerated 3D in both sessions?
[10:00] <AoP> Like when I change a session is it still loading all the GUI and stuff from the last one?
[10:03] <NRG^MaSSaCre> can i get som help plz?
[10:08] <NRG^MaSSaCre> hello some help here :P
[10:09] <bipolar> NRG^MaSSaCre: ask
[10:09] <bipolar> NRG^MaSSaCre: do some googling on iptables. thats whats used to setup NAT
[10:11] <eval> bonsoir tlm :)
[10:12] <eval> j'aurais besoin de l'aide si qcq est dispo (configuration wpa), j'ai essay les tutos que j'ai trouv mais je bloque qd mm :(
[10:13] <_martin> Any packages t o
[10:13] <_martin> enable Java?
[10:14] <nalioth> !fr
[10:14] <ubotu> Va a #ubuntu-fr et #kubuntu-fr pour aide et discussion en francais
[10:14] <eval> oups sorry, I belive I'm on french channel
[10:16] <_martin> Are there any packages available in Adept that will enable Java support in FireFox?
[10:19] <nalioth> ubotu: tell _martin about javadebs
[10:25] <DjDarkman> hoe can i search for packeges in text mode?
[10:25] <bipolar> DjDarkman: apt-cache or auto-apt
[10:25] <osh_> DjDarkman: aptitude
[10:25] <DjDarkman> 10x bipolar
[10:25] <mac2612__> djdarkman, apt-cache search <query>
[10:26] <nalioth> ubotu: tell DjDarkman about apt-get
[10:29] <NRG^MaSSaCre> make a swedish channel plz :D
[10:30] <nalioth> NRG^MaSSaCre: have you checked if one is available? #kubuntu-se  ?
[10:30] <NRG^MaSSaCre> yeah i have
[10:32] <nalioth> NRG^MaSSaCre: how bout #ubuntu-se   ?
[10:32] <osh_> What do you need to ask in swedish that can't be asked in english?
[10:33] <NRG^MaSSaCre> easy for swedish ppl to understand if we can ask in swedish :)
[10:34] <sean> Question..  how do I get my ipod mounted so anyone can make changes to it?  Currently, I can update the database on it if I run gtkpod as root, but the mounting permissions seem to not let regular users do it
[10:34] <osh_> NRG^MaSSaCre: Ok, g till #ubuntu-se s skall vi se om jag kan hjlpa dig.
[10:34] <xehpu> hi
[10:34] <osh_> sean: add "user" to your fstab when you mount it.
[10:35] <xehpu> im a new linux user
[10:36] <sean> Thanks..  I have a related question but am in the midst of cooking dinner
[10:42] <Snake__> Who here can help me with superkarba?
[10:42] <Snake__> karamaba*
[10:42] <Snake__> whatever
[10:43] <Snake__> anyone anyone
[10:44] <osh_> Snake__: I'm using it. What seems to be the problem?
[10:44] <Snake__> osh_: I can't figure out how to install wigits or anything
[10:45] <Snake__> I downloaded liquid weather, but how do I open it??
[10:45] <kkathman> Snake__: did you also install superkaramba?
[10:46] <Snake__> Yea
[10:46] <nalioth> Snake__: everything you need to know is at the superkaramba homepage
[10:46] <Snake__> Well I guess the real question is, do I have uncompress this file??
[10:46] <Snake__> Because ark doesn't reconize it
[10:46] <kkathman> Snake__: Basically, create a directory in your home directory called "karamba-themes", download and untar to there, then install SK
[10:47] <sean> Okay, back.  My problem is that the ipod isn't consistently any particular device name.  sometimes it's sda, sometimes sdb, othertimes sdc.
[10:47] <sean> Depending on what I've been doing
[10:47] <kkathman> Snake__: you'll typically have to go into the subdirectory of the theme and choose the theme file
[10:47] <kkathman> but you do that in SK
[10:47] <Snake__> but what im saying is, how do I compress it??
[10:47] <Snake__> ark doesn't reconize it
[10:48] <sean> I figured a udev rule would make it mount consistently as /media/ipod no matter what, but I added the rule and it seems to be ignored
[10:48] <Snake__> what is skz?
[10:48] <kkathman> Snake__:  you dont compress it
[10:48] <kkathman> you uncompress it
[10:49] <Snake__> Uncompress*
[10:49] <Snake__> sorry typii
[10:49] <Snake__> typo**
[10:49] <kkathman> skz??? never heard of that one
[10:49] <Snake__> Ya thats what I downloaded it as
[10:49] <kkathman> odd
[10:49] <osh_> sean: Never had that problem. Sorry. Someone else might be able to help you.
[10:49] <kkathman> no clue about that...very odd
[10:50] <Snake__> hmmm ok
[10:50] <Snake__> ill find it in some other format
[10:50] <Snake__> i g2g
[10:50] <kkathman> all the ones I got, including liquid weather were gz
[10:51] <sean> Well, the problemseems to be that the device doesn't get mounted automatically in any case
[10:53] <am> hi ppl, just wondering if there is any kde 3.5 packages for PPC yet ?
[10:54] <bipolar> ok. looks like I'm upgraded to dapper. time to reboot and view the carnage :)
[10:55] <sean> Kubuntu uses udev by default, right?
[10:55] <sean> I' sort of clueless how this sort of thing is handled
[10:56] <am> yer udev is standard on most distros now
[10:57] <sean> Okay, so, any idea why this udev rule might be ignored?  BUS="scsi", SYSFS{model}="iPod            ", KERNEL="sd*", NAME="%k", SYMLINK="ipod"
[10:58] <am> erm...well either it's black listed, or the Ipod's usb name isn't ipod
[10:59] <sean> how do I find out whether it's blacklisted?  I assume dmesg can tell me what the usb name is
[10:59] <pglee> can anybody tell me why the 5.10 installation might hang on the base install at 6% ("Retrieving Gzip")?
[11:00] <triode> Hello, how can I view a list of running processes? I am having a problem with a process that is giving me xruns in Jack (running realtime), this happens in exactly 60 second intervals
[11:00] <am> sean: i read an article a while ago but i can't actually remember how you query the device . If its blacklisted then it will say something like "not loaded due to blacklist"
[11:00] <sean> triode: ps -A
[11:00] <am> triode: ps
[11:00] <sean> [4301194.001000]  usb-storage: waiting for device to settle before scanning
[11:00] <sean> [4301199.001000]    Vendor: Apple     Model: iPod              Rev: 1.62
[11:00] <sean> [4301199.001000]    Type:   Direct-Access                      ANSI SCSI revision: 00
[11:00] <sean> sorry about the flood, there
[11:01] <sean> Model: iPod, it says
[11:01] <triode> sean, am: thanks, but how can I see what program is doing this apparently scheduled operation? I have the exact time it's happening
[11:02] <nalioth> sean: please read the /topic (and use a pastebin)
[11:02] <triode> should I try start killing processes to find out which one is it?
[11:02] <sean> Thanks, nal, i will in the future
[11:02] <sean> triode: that's probably dangerous
[11:02] <triode> what if it's a process that is run only every 60 seconds and not showing on the list? can I view a log of run programs with time table?
[11:03] <sean> triode: you might want to bring up a task manager of some sort and just watch it
[11:03] <triode> sean: how do I do that?
[11:03] <triode> in windows you CTR+ALT+DEL does that, what about in kubuntu?
[11:04] <sampan> triode, open ksysguard and then watch the process table tab
[11:04] <triode> sampan: thanks, Ill try that
[11:05] <kkathman> greetings sampan :)
[11:05] <sampan> hey kkathman :)  have a merry christmas?
[11:05] <kkathman> yes I did, thank you for asking. Im hoping you did also :)
[11:05] <triode> can I log that information?
[11:05] <sean> Is there anything i have to do besides add the rules file to /etc/udev/rules.d ?
[11:06] <sean> as in, some sort of update program
[11:06] <triode> i mean, is there a way to log a time frame for that window?
[11:06] <sampan> kkathman  wasn't too bad -- very low-key but that's my speed :)
[11:06] <triode> if I start killing running processes, will it do any bad to my kubuntu install? or will it all go back to normal after rebooting?
[11:07] <kkathman> well sometimes thats not so bad sampan :)
[11:07] <sampan> triode, i'm not aware of a way to log ksysguard output, but i'm a newb so maybe there is :/
[11:07] <kkathman> triode: why would you want to log the output?
[11:08] <kkathman> nalioth: could you do a top > topoutput.txt  ??
[11:08] <kkathman> I think not
[11:08] <triode> because there's something happening every 60 seconds that gives me xruns (dropouts) in Jack sound server
[11:08] <kkathman> triode:  you could do a ps aux > logoutput.txt
[11:08] <pglee> any ideas why a 5.10 install would install the base system REALLY slow starting at the 6% mark? It's been at 6% for about an hour
[11:09] <triode> so, I want to find out what's doing that, and if the program isn't running, but is run every 60 seconds, then I wouldn't know
[11:09] <kkathman> triode: you could do a top in a console and just watch it
[11:10] <triode> kkathman: how is that done?
[11:10] <kkathman> triode: open a konsole and type top
[11:10] <nalioth> kkathman: ps aux>procs.txt
[11:10] <kkathman> thanx nalioth ;)
[11:11] <triode> ok, I'm checking that out,
[11:12] <triode> i'll brb
[11:14] <pglee> please help?
[11:14] <osh_> nalioth: why not this? watch -n5 'ps -aux >>procs.txt'?
[11:15] <osh_> nalioth: long and lovely proclist to debug... ;-)
[11:15] <nalioth> osh_: i'm not a guru, i was just offering what i know
[11:15] <osh_> nalioth: Me too. =)
[11:16] <synmoo> Question: Trying to pair my bluetooth mouse, and I'm able to 'browse' the mouse and see it's profile with Kbluetoothd, but how do I get it to pair with the mouse?
[11:29] <sorush20> how do I get my GPG, key signed? I've been looking at http://www.biglumber.com/ is this the best way?
[11:31] <nalioth> sorush20: join #kubuntu-offtopic please
[11:35] <pglee> help with install problem?
[11:35] <apokryphos> !helpme
[11:35] <ubotu> If you don't actually ask a question, we can not actually help you.
[11:35] <apokryphos> =)
[11:36] <pglee> during the base install, it gets to 6% (retrieving gzip) and slows down to near zero
[11:36] <pglee> it's been going for an hour and is still at 6%, but on some other package
[11:36] <nalioth> ubotu: tell pglee about verify
[11:37] <pglee> md5sum seemed to be fine...
[11:37] <nalioth> pglee: of the iso image and the burnt cd?
[11:38] <pglee> the iso. I guess I need to jerk the cd out cuz it's not responding to the eject button
[11:49] <pglee> where is the media checker on 5.10?
[11:49] <nalioth> pglee: in the 'advanced' menu
[11:50] <pglee> oh
[11:50] <Tackleberry> !nvidia
[11:50] <ubotu> nvidia is probably at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia or http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=57368
[11:56] <pglee> ok, so the media checker is doing almost the exact same thing as the install. It has (i believe) frozen at 10%. The HD light is constantly on, and the cd drive spins up for a second, then spins down again (over and over).
[11:57] <nalioth> pglee: burn your cd again, at the slowest speed available
[11:58] <pglee> ok, i might be back in a couple of hours


[23:32] <tdrr> Hello. I've been trying to get my headset + microphone working on Ubuntu MATE. The headset has a single plug, and comes with a splitter for hardware that may need it (my PC does). The headphones work, but the mic doesn't show any activity on the sound preferences, nor do they work anywhere really. I can unmute the playback in ALSAMixer and I can hear the microphone but it doesn't work anywhere else
[23:32] <tdrr> still.
[23:33] <tdrr> I have no idea what to try now, I've been puzzled on this for days now. Couldn't get them to work in Fedora KDE, Debian XFCE, nor Xubuntu, and this is the closest I've gotten (which is very sad to say the least lol).
[23:38] <tdrr> Something that may be useful to know, is that `arecord -d 5 -f cd test.wav` results in an infinite loop, and never stops "recording" at all. Audacity recording is also stuck at 0:00 and never advances.
[23:44] <sixwheeledbeast> tdrr: have you proven the headset works elsewhere with the same lead. are you aware of AHJ vs OMTP and how that would effect splitter cables? If the splitter came with the headset it's less likely to be that but worth checking with the symptoms you mention.
[23:46] <tdrr> The splitter came with the headset, and I'm certain it does work on other systems. Works on a Windows 7 machine I tested on earlier.
[23:46] <sixwheeledbeast> I am using pipewire in the latest UM so don't need to play with alsa or pulse anymore, everything seems to just work.
[23:47] <tdrr> I come from using pipewire and I couldn't even hear it at all, so it was even worse.
[23:47] <tdrr> Same issues other than that.
[23:47] <sixwheeledbeast> I have a USB DAC for my system tho
[23:49] <sixwheeledbeast> I assume you have input set correctly in settings.
[23:50] <sixwheeledbeast> sound prefs
[23:51] <tdrr> Correctly as in? I do have "Analog Stereo Duplex" as the profile for my sound card, and "Rear Microphone" is selected as input and unmuted. None of the other options (Line In and Front Microphone) do anything either even if I plug my microphones into them.
[23:51] <sixwheeledbeast> Choose the correct hardware make sure it's duplex (or input), input - set device and connector.
[23:53] <tdrr> Yeah that's set up correctly but no dice.
[23:56] <sixwheeledbeast> was it the same hardware/pc for windows
[23:58] <tdrr> Not the same PC. I'm not 100% sure the issue isn't hardware related, but I'm far less worried about it now that I can at least hear the microphone via ALSAMixer and confirm it's doing something.