[00:23] <StevenK> wallyworld_, wgrant: https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/fix-branch-subscribe-open-team/+merge/109960
[00:25] <bigjools> yay, spammers are harvesting email addresses from LP
[00:25] <bigjools> how?
[00:25] <bigjools> ah wait - pgp keys.  bastards.
[00:42] <StevenK> wgrant: So, DB patch, since I can't have breakfast. :-/
[00:42] <wallyworld_> StevenK: you still want the cancel_url set all the time
[00:43] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Right.
[00:44] <wgrant> StevenK: The bugtaskflat cache is ([policies], [grantees])
[00:44] <wgrant> StevenK: The branch cache can be (policy, [grantees])
[00:46] <StevenK> wgrant: In which case the subselect from APA just dies?
[00:47] <StevenK> wallyworld_: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038217/
[00:49] <wgrant> StevenK: It still exists, but it only returns a single value, not an array.
[00:51] <wallyworld_> StevenK: i'd consider self.next_url = canonical_url(...) in the init() and in the one place where needed, set it to None
[00:51] <StevenK> wgrant: Oh, SELECT INTO _access_policy FROM (SELECT ...
[00:52] <wgrant> +        SELECT COALESCE(array_agg(policy), ARRAY[]::integer[])
[00:52] <wgrant> +            INTO _access_policies
[00:52] <wgrant> ->
[00:52] <wgrant> "SELECT policy INTO _access_policy
[00:54] <StevenK> wgrant: Could we fix the comment too? Since now we're on 9.1
[00:56] <StevenK> wallyworld_: Ah, I can't set it directly in the function, it breaks.
[00:57] <wallyworld_> which bit?
[00:57] <StevenK> wallyworld_: My test blows up with something about can't set next_url directly
[00:58] <wallyworld_> self.next_url is set in many other places
[00:58] <wgrant> That view probably has it as a property.
[00:59] <StevenK> It does
[00:59] <wgrant> Then that's obviously not going to work.
[00:59] <wallyworld_> the diff showed the property being removed
[01:00] <wgrant> StevenK: This should work, rather than the subquery madness: SELECT COALESCE(array_agg(policy ORDER BY policy)) FROM accesspolicyartifact WHERE artifact = 5;
[01:01] <wgrant> Good way to make sure everyone's upgraded to 9.1, too.
[01:06] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038229/
[01:07] <wgrant> StevenK: 227 is useless
[01:07] <wgrant> It doesn't do anything,
[01:08] <StevenK> wgrant: But that's what you said? :-)
[01:08] <wgrant> That's the SQL query.
[01:08] <wgrant> It's clearly not a useful PL/pgSQL statement.
[01:08] <wgrant> Since it doesn't put the value anywhere.
[01:09] <wgrant> StevenK: An alternative may be to have a general function which returns the arrays for a given artifact.
[01:10] <wgrant> BugTaskFlat can use them directly, but Branch can just extract the first policy
[01:10] <wgrant> Also, brb.
[01:15] <lifeless> wgrant: lp:~lifeless/squid/3.1-ext-tag
[01:15] <lifeless> bigjools: what about it ?
[01:16] <bigjools> lifeless: expiring librarian files - doesn't seem to be mentioned apart from an oblique reference in process-death-row changes
[01:16] <bigjools> make it explicit
[01:20] <lifeless> bigjools: do we gc the files two different ways?
[01:26] <bigjools> lifeless: what files? :)
[01:26] <bigjools> there's two lots of files at present
[01:27] <bigjools> and reaped separately
[01:27] <bigjools> death-row deletes the archive's files and the expiration script deletes the librarian files
[01:27] <bigjools> both to a different schedule
[01:27] <lifeless> where deleting a librarian file == unreferencing it ?
[01:28] <bigjools> right
[01:28] <bigjools> actually
[01:28] <bigjools> we set the date for deletion
[01:28] <lifeless> I believe pdr does that
[01:28] <bigjools> they both do
[01:28] <lifeless> or at least, what wgrant wrote claims it is what does it
[01:29] <lifeless> bigjools: when would one set it vs the other ?
[01:29] <bigjools> the expiration script deletes the librarian files something like 7 days later
[01:29] <bigjools> it gives people a chance to recover old files after they get auto-superseded from disk
[01:30] <lifeless> why don't we just set a 7 day later deletion date?
[01:31] <bigjools> because it affects quotas
[01:31] <bigjools> whereas the librarian doesn't
[01:31] <wgrant> bigjools, lifeless: Three phases: publisher sets SPPH.scheduleddeletiondate; p-d-r deletes from on-disk archive and sets SPPH.dateremoved; e-a-f sets LFA expiry to now
[01:31] <bigjools> wgrant: WFM
[01:31] <wgrant> But e-a-f excludes things with dateremoved within the last week
[01:31] <bigjools> but make it explicit in the wiki page
[01:31] <wgrant> It'd better work for you, since I was describing the current process :)
[01:32] <bigjools> given that I know the current process rather well that seems redundant
[01:32] <wgrant> lifeless doesn't.
[01:32] <wgrant> Well, didn't.
[01:32] <bigjools> which is why I was just explaining it ;)
[01:32] <wgrant> So, DisklessArchives doesn't affect expiry, since p-d-r will continue to set dateremoved.
[01:32] <wgrant> Or a p-d-r equivalent.
[01:33] <wgrant> dateremoved still exists -- it's probably used to determine whether a file is still visible or not.
[01:33] <wgrant> Since we can't just rely on publication state.
[01:33] <bigjools> presumably the proxy will serve 404s for dateremoved files?
[01:33] <wgrant> Precisely.
[01:33] <wgrant> The rewriter will fail the request.
[01:33] <bigjools> I think that's wrong
[01:33] <wgrant> Why?
[01:34] <bigjools> actually, scratch that
[01:34] <bigjools> it's fine
[01:34] <wgrant> It's correct, so it had better not be wrong :)
[01:34] <bigjools> the coffee kicked in and I remembered that the UI has librarian links :)
[01:34] <wgrant> So it doesn't affect expiry at all. I should probably have mentioned that.
[01:34] <bigjools> yeah, make it explicit
[01:35] <wgrant> (although if jml and james_w want to implement my e-a-f rewrite proposal they are welcome to :P)
[01:35] <bigjools> how do we currently work out quotas, is it adding up PUBLISHED files?
[01:35] <wgrant> No.
[01:35] <wgrant> datepublished IS NOT NULL AND dateremoved IS NOT NULL, or something like that.
[01:35] <lifeless> nasty horrible timingout query
[01:35]  * wgrant checks.
[01:35] <lifeless> hits the LFC IIRC.
[01:35] <wgrant> It's possible that datepublished isn't checked.
[01:35] <wgrant> But dateremoved is.
[01:36] <bigjools> ok
[01:36] <wgrant> lifeless: Of course; only LFC has the size.
[01:36] <bigjools> yes it checks LFC of course
[01:36] <bigjools> :)
[01:36] <lifeless> this might be something to dernorm as part of the project; solve quota performance
[01:36] <wgrant> It just checks dateremoved IS NOT NULL
[01:36] <lifeless> just a random though
[01:37] <wgrant> lifeless: On the contrary, if you're going to suggest that I'll add it to the out of scope section :)
[01:37] <wgrant> It's completely irrelevant.
[01:37] <bigjools> focus!
[01:38] <wallyworld> StevenK: just for you https://code.launchpad.net/~wallyworld/launchpad/bug-javascript-1011611/+merge/109966
[01:38] <wgrant> lifeless: Your lock has expired -- are you still writing?
[01:39] <lifeless> yes, sec
[01:45] <StevenK> wallyworld: r=me with one comment
[01:46] <wallyworld> StevenK: thanks
[01:47] <lifeless> wgrant: all done btw
[01:47] <wgrant> lifeless: Thanks.
[01:48] <wallyworld> StevenK: i've responded
[02:00] <lifeless> wgrant: so, 3.2 is in an interesting state just now; trunk has some acl breakage,w hich alex thinks he has fixed, but...
[02:00] <lifeless> there are folk running 3.2 in prod
[02:01] <lifeless> basically we'd need to validate it does what we want fairly carefully, so I think 3.1+patches is probably the way to go. I've backported the ext-tag support already for this.
[02:01] <wgrant> Hmmm
[02:01] <wgrant> Agreed, the ext_tag stuff looked fairly uninvasive.
[02:01] <wgrant> But I haven't seen your patch
[02:01] <wgrant> So I may not have seen everything.
[02:01] <lifeless> see the wiki page, tis all linked up
[02:30] <wgrant> StevenK: How goes the DB patch?
[02:31] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038289/
[02:32] <StevenK> I've been distracted trying to figure out how to disable next_url when it's a property
[02:32] <wgrant> StevenK: Make it not a property.
[02:32] <StevenK> wgrant: Zope will deal either way?
[02:33] <wgrant> Confused.
[02:33] <wgrant> Zope doesn't know it's a property.
[02:33] <wgrant> It's a property.
[02:35] <StevenK> wgrant: Zope will call it properly if it isn't a property?
[02:35] <wgrant> Make it an attribute.
[02:35] <wgrant> It doesn't need to be a method or property if you're going to set it explicitly.
[02:35] <wgrant> (it doesn't need to be, and it can't bd)
[02:36] <StevenK> wgrant: next_url = canonical_url(context) ?
[02:38] <wgrant> Right:
[02:38] <wgrant> if all_is_good:
[02:38] <wgrant>    self.next_url = canonical_url(context)
[02:39] <StevenK> wgrant: Not that easy.
[02:39] <StevenK> next_url is set in _BranchSubscriptionView, which the three subscription views subclass off
[02:59] <StevenK> Right, Zope does not love next_url if it's not a property
[03:00] <wgrant> What is "not a property"?
[03:00] <wgrant> It doesn't require it to be a property.
[03:00] <StevenK> wgrant: The function is not decorated with @property
[03:00] <wgrant> Well yes.
[03:00] <wgrant> Making it a method isn't going to change anything, apart from breaking the interface.
[03:01] <StevenK> Oh, it fixes the case where you're subscribing an open team nicely. It just breaks everything else. :-)
[03:01] <wgrant> Erm.
[03:01] <wgrant> What?
[03:01] <wgrant> How does it fix that?
[03:01] <StevenK> Because I can then just set self.next_url = None
[03:02] <wgrant> Ah.
[03:02] <wgrant> No.
[03:44] <wgrant> Mmmm, postgres 9.1
[03:44] <wgrant> So nice.
[03:44] <wgrant> GIN, column triggers, ordered aggregates...
[03:57] <wgrant> StevenK: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1038383/ or so
[03:58] <lifeless> -sonly
[03:59] <StevenK> wgrant: Hahah, 12-6, not 16-6 :-P
[03:59] <wgrant> StevenK: 12-6 is before BugTaskFlat was created :)
[03:59] <wgrant> So it doesn't work back then.
[03:59] <wgrant> Has to be after 16-0.
[03:59] <wgrant> lifeless: sonly?
[03:59] <StevenK> wgrant: Really?
[03:59] <wgrant> StevenK: It'll work on prod and staging.
[03:59] <wgrant> But not in make schema.
[03:59] <StevenK> Oh, of course, the patches will be applied in order
[03:59] <wgrant> Because make schema applies in numerical order.
[04:00] <StevenK> Yeah, just realised
[04:00] <lifeless> wgrant: -slony
[04:00] <wgrant> Ah
[04:00] <wgrant> Right
[04:00] <StevenK> I guess lifeless means no slony for 9.1
[04:00] <wgrant> Eventually.
[04:00] <StevenK> 10 second FDT sounds good
[04:04] <StevenK> wgrant: So I get the trigger on information_type changes on branch, is there another entry point I'm missing?
[04:06] <wgrant> StevenK: accessartifact_flatten_bug possibly wants to be renamed to reflect the fact that it now does branches too -- it's an INSERT OR UPDATE OR DELETE trigger on AAG and APA, so it handles the other two entrypoints.
[04:07] <StevenK> Right.
[04:07] <StevenK> accessartifact_update_artifacts ?
[04:08] <wgrant> Or accessartifact_denorm_to_artifacts, or something like that.
[04:08] <StevenK> I like that, let's do that.
[04:09] <StevenK> I have to DROP the trigger, I can't just replace which function it calls?
[04:12] <wgrant> Right, you'll need to drop the trig and func and recreate them with the new names.
[04:12] <StevenK> Yup
[04:12] <StevenK> And the comment
[04:13] <StevenK> There are four PERFORM accessartifact_flatten_bug in 16-0, do they need to change too?
[04:14] <wgrant> Oh right, there's an extra layer of indirection.
[04:14] <wgrant> Don't need to recreate the trigger.
[04:14] <wgrant> Just rename accessartifact_flatten_bug and replace its name in the trigger func
[04:15] <wgrant> Bah, but the trigger func is called accessartifact_maintain_bugtaskflat_trig
[04:15] <wgrant> So
[04:15] <wgrant> Drop trigger
[04:15] <wgrant> Drop accessartifact_maintain_bugtaskflat_trig
[04:15] <wgrant> So needs renaming.
[04:15] <wgrant> Drop accessartifact_flatten_bug
[04:15] <wgrant> Recreate the three with new names.
[04:43] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038425/
[04:51] <wgrant> StevenK: Pretty good. We can probably dump some of the SECURITY DEFINERs now, though.
[04:51] <wgrant> The internal functions shouldn't have them.
[04:51] <StevenK> So accessartifact_maintain_denorm_to_artifacts_trig can lose it, at least.
[04:52] <wgrant> branch_denorm_access, bug_flatten_access and bug_build_access_cache are probably the only ones that need it.
[04:52] <wgrant> All the other functions either do nothing interesting or are internal.
[04:52] <wgrant> Can possibly even do without bug_build_access_cache.
[04:52] <wgrant> Since the only other place that is called is the main bugtaskflat function.
[04:52] <wgrant> Which is itself a definer.
[04:53] <wgrant> StevenK: Do you know what SECURITY DEFINER does? :)
[04:53] <StevenK> wgrant: Nope, I was trusting your judgement.
[04:53] <wgrant> StevenK: It's setuid.
[04:53] <StevenK> Oh, argh.
[04:53] <wgrant> It causes the function to execute as the role that created it.
[04:54] <wgrant> Rather than the role that is executing it.
[04:54] <StevenK> Right, so the less functions that have it, the better.
[04:54] <wgrant> It's handy to put it everywhere for testing. And it's not a huge issue in our DB, since all the users are pretty much trustworthy.
[04:54] <wgrant> But yes, should be minimised.
[04:55] <wgrant> StevenK: Functions without SECURITY DEFINER also don't need the custom search_path.
[04:55] <wgrant> (same as you don't let a setuid binary execute things from PATH)
[04:56] <StevenK> wgrant: Is the converse also true?
[04:56] <StevenK> Do functions with SECURITY DEFINER need SET search_path = ... ?
[04:59] <wgrant> StevenK: Yes.
[05:00] <wgrant> Since names without an explicit schema (ie. everything in all of our DB functions) use the search_path.
[05:03] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038442/
[05:05] <wgrant> StevenK: CREATE TRIGGER accesspolicyartifact_maintain_denorm_to_artifacts_trigger
[05:05] <wgrant> That "maintain_" probably shouldn't be there
[05:05] <wgrant> Ditto in the second trigger.
[05:07] <wgrant> StevenK: I'd drop the SECURITY DEFINER from bug_build_access_cache
[05:07] <StevenK> wgrant: bug_build_access_cache was in your list of three that need it :-)
[05:07] <wgrant>     LANGUAGE plpgsql SET search_path = public AS $$
[05:07] <wgrant> That search_path can die.
[05:07] <wgrant> 14:52:40 < wgrant> Can possibly even do without bug_build_access_cache.
[05:07] <wgrant> 14:52:50 < wgrant> Since the only other place that is called is the main bugtaskflat function.
[05:07] <wgrant> 14:52:59 < wgrant> Which is itself a definer.
[05:09] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038447/
[05:20] <wgrant> StevenK: Plausible.
[05:28] <StevenK> wallyworld: Where's your branch that drops use of branch.explicitly_private and friend up to?
[05:28] <lifeless> wgrant: basic_fake_auth - 3.2 helper, don't need your python bit; another backport from 3.2 / build as separate package.
[05:29] <StevenK> wgrant: Shall I push up the DB patch, or do you want to ponder a bit more?
[05:29] <wgrant> StevenK: Push it up.
[05:29] <wgrant> StevenK: Well
[05:29] <wgrant> StevenK: First check that it works.
[05:30] <StevenK> wgrant: make schema works
[05:30] <wgrant> That doesn't mean much :)
[05:30] <wgrant> lifeless: Huh
[05:30] <wgrant> lifeless: Indeed, rather handy.
[05:31] <wgrant> http://wiki.squid-cache.org/ConfigExamples/Authenticate/MultipleSources describes a fair bit of what I discovered on Friday.
[05:31] <wgrant> It seems.
[05:36] <StevenK> wgrant: test_bug_mirror_access_triggers passes, still doesn't mean much? :-)
[05:37] <lifeless> wgrant: yeah, shocking, we have docs
[05:39] <wgrant> lifeless: I wouldn't really call that docs.
[05:40] <wgrant> StevenK: I'd check it works for branches too.
[05:40] <wgrant> StevenK: in psql
[05:47] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038476/
[05:48] <wgrant> StevenK: Check the toggling information_type toggles access_grants between {7} and NULL
[05:50] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038480/
[05:50] <wgrant> Marvellous.
[05:51] <StevenK> wgrant: Happy to check APA too, just not sure what policy should be.
[05:51] <wgrant> Anything.
[05:51] <wgrant> Anything at all.
[05:51] <wallyworld> StevenK: it's merged
[05:51] <wgrant> Deployed too, isn't it?
[05:52] <wallyworld> probably
[05:53] <wgrant> If it was deployed yesterday, rerun the usual information_type vs transitively_private consistency checks on prod, and drop the columns from code entirely.
[05:53] <StevenK> wallyworld: Do you want to handle that?
[05:53] <StevenK> Or shall I?
[05:54] <wallyworld> StevenK: i've got a few branches on the go, so feel free to take it. i thought you wanted to be the one to drop the columns etc?
[05:54] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038483/ -- not sure if that's what usually happens.
[05:54] <StevenK> wallyworld: Yes, where drop the columns is ALTER TABLE branch DROP COLUMN :-)
[05:55] <wgrant> StevenK: bug
[05:55] <wgrant> StevenK: Or you're mis-testing.
[05:55] <wgrant> Or my code is crap.
[05:56] <StevenK> wgrant: I'm happy to accept that I'm mis-testing.
[05:59] <StevenK> wgrant: How do I check?
[06:00] <wgrant> It's unfortunately not your fault, I don't think.
[06:00] <StevenK> Anything I can fix in 16-6?
[06:00] <wgrant> It's a bug in 16-6, so I hope it's fixable there, indeed.
[06:00] <StevenK> Ah. Can I have a clue? :-)
[06:00] <wgrant> Not until I do.
[06:01] <StevenK> I'll quickly put together a branch that drops *_private from the branch model.
[06:01] <wgrant> Great.
[06:02] <wgrant> lalala i am stupid
[06:02] <wgrant> Well
[06:02] <wgrant> lalalal postgres is visual basic
[06:03] <wgrant> (its array indices are based at 1, not 0)
[06:03] <wgrant> StevenK: Does that tell you how to fix it? :)
[06:03] <StevenK> Bwahaha
[06:03] <StevenK> One character bug
[06:05]  * wgrant fixes two timeouts.
[06:06] <StevenK> Hm, this could be difficult to rip out.
[06:06] <wgrant> Howso?
[06:06] <wgrant> Should be delet
[06:06] <wgrant> delete
[06:06] <wgrant> delete
[06:06] <wgrant> delete
[06:06] <wgrant> commit
[06:06] <wgrant> push
[06:06] <wgrant> bzr pqm-submit
[06:06] <StevenK> Given the branch browser code uses copy_field(IBranch['explicitly_private'])
[06:07] <StevenK> And one test still uses transitively_private, so wallyworld fails.
[06:07] <wgrant> Oh.
[06:07] <wallyworld> StevenK: i told you about that one on the call the other day
[06:07] <wgrant> wallyworld's branch didn't turn them into properties?
[06:07] <wgrant> SO the columns are still being read :(
[06:07] <wgrant> Fixing that is top priority and pretty trivial.
[06:08] <StevenK> Right.
[06:08] <wgrant> Only after that's deployed to appservers can we stop writing to the columns.
[06:08] <StevenK> Yeah
[06:08] <wallyworld> StevenK: i thought your next branch would be the one to drop them from the model code
[06:08] <StevenK> wgrant: Give me a few minutes and I'll throw up a branch.
[06:09]  * StevenK blinks, just having re-read that sentence.
[06:09] <wallyworld> hence i left that one behind since it can be done at the same time
[06:09] <StevenK> wallyworld: As wgrant says, we can't. They need to depend fully on information_type under the covers.
[06:09] <wallyworld> but the one remaining case is just some bug text view
[06:09] <wallyworld> which is not really used
[06:10] <wgrant> Plus the API :)
[06:10] <wallyworld> which i thought would be done when the class properties were dropped
[06:11] <wallyworld> i basically changed all the sql queries to use unfo type
[06:11] <wgrant> wallyworld: There's a race there.
[06:11] <wgrant> We need to stop reading before or at the same time as we stop writing.
[06:11] <wgrant> But deploys aren't atomic and isolated.
[06:12] <wgrant> So the read removal needs to be done in an earlier deploy.
[06:12] <wallyworld> sure
[06:12] <wallyworld> that's what i though StevenK was doing next
[06:12] <wallyworld> since he expressed an interest in doing the remainign bits
[06:15] <StevenK> I think lib/lp/code/model/tests/test_branch_privacy_triggers.py will fail with this change.
[06:15] <wgrant> It will.
[06:15] <StevenK> Nuke from orbit?
[06:16] <wgrant> Ideally replace with something that tests the new ones :)
[06:17] <StevenK> wgrant: Oh, sorry, I don't mean the branch that adds 16-6, I mean the branch that replaces explicitly_private and transitively_private with properties.
[06:18] <wgrant> StevenK: Hm?
[06:20] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038507/
[06:20] <wgrant> StevenK: You need to preseve the cols, just under different names.
[06:21] <StevenK> But nothing reads them anymore
[06:21] <wgrant> Not after that diff is deployed, no.
[06:21] <StevenK> Bug._private was for Storm's benefit
[06:22] <wgrant> But as I said above, we need to keep setting the DB columns until everything has stopped reading them.
[06:22] <wgrant> Now, if you try to stop both reading and writing in the one deploy, you're breaking things.
[06:22] <wgrant> Since one appserver will have stopped writing them while others are still reading them.
[06:22] <wgrant> == leak
[06:23] <StevenK> Ah.
[06:23] <StevenK> Curses.
[06:24] <wgrant> I have that effect on people.
[06:24] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038511/
[06:26] <StevenK> wgrant: And 16-6 psql test: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1038516/
[06:30] <wgrant> +    # These can die after the UI is dropped.
[06:30] <wgrant> I forget -- do we care about API?
[06:30] <wgrant> StevenK: That looks unbroken indeed.
[06:31] <StevenK> transitively_private is not exported, so can die.
[06:31] <StevenK> explicitly_private is exported
[06:31] <StevenK> As is private
[06:31] <StevenK> Because a non-duplicated interface is a bad one.
[06:31] <wgrant> explicitly_private is private
[06:32] <StevenK> wgrant: They're both on the interface. Seperately.
[06:33] <wgrant> Ah
[06:37] <wgrant> Erm
[06:37] <wgrant> Storm, what are you doing.
[06:38] <wgrant> Bad Storm.
[06:52] <StevenK> wgrant: https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/branch-privacy-properties/+merge/109987
[07:01] <StevenK> wgrant: Can haz review so I can do stuff while ec2 munches on it?
[07:02] <wgrant> StevenK: Done, with comment.
[07:49] <adeuring> good morning
[07:59] <rvba> Hi frankban, are we not on review duty today?
[07:59] <frankban> rvba: yes we are.
[08:00] <rvba> frankban: ;)
[08:53] <jml> benji: thanks for adding that readme :)
[09:34] <cjwatson> benji: Isn't it a bit odd that logs is still in .bzrignore?  (And also logs/README.txt via the logs/* entry.)
[09:37] <benji> cjwatson: yea it is a bit odd; I'll remove the directory itself.  I wonder how to ignore the non-README contents of the directory though
[09:41] <jml> benji: one (crappy) way, rename README to _README and ignore [A-Za-z]*
[09:44] <adeuring> stub: do you know the reason why ftq('aaa.bbb') returns the tsquery 'aaa' & 'bbb' | 'aaabbb'? Can't we simply drop this logic?
[09:46] <stub> adeuring: We can certainly drop and/or change the logic. Nobody has been able to really articulate what a search is actually supposed to do beyond 'be like google, but with substring matching' in the past.
[09:47] <adeuring> stub: ok, I'll see what we can remove or if we can make the function at lkeast simpler
[09:47] <stub> adeuring: I don't think any tests beyond the text search ones test the weird cases, and feel free to rewrite that horrible ftq() function entirely. Nobody should ever let me write parsers because I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
[09:47] <adeuring> stub: ;)
[09:48] <stub> adeuring: I do recommend reading the text search docs in the PG manual if you haven't already - if nothing else, it will get you familiar with the language and what problems you should be considering
[09:48] <adeuring> stub: yeah, I'm already looking into the docs
[09:55] <ivory> frankban: could you please look at this mp: https://code.launchpad.net/~ivo-kracht/launchpad/bug-353097/+merge/110018
[09:55] <frankban> sure ivory
[10:09] <jml> so a private team can't be a product owner?
[10:18] <jml> so, I was thinking about Launchpad's microservice idea last night
[10:18] <jml> and thinking about splitting out codehosting
[10:18] <jml> and then I thought that you'd probably want to split out the xml-rpc service that codehosting talks to
[10:19] <jml> but then I thought, LP used to have a separate xml-rpc service that codehosting talked to, and we rolled it into the appserver
[10:19] <jml> What has changed between then and now such that splitting it out again is a good idea? (Is it a good idea?)
[10:21] <jml> If a private team can't be a product owner, then I guess that means that private teams cannot have commercial subscriptions
[10:21] <czajkowski> jml: you did a lot of thinking last night :)
[10:22] <wgrant> jml: Private teams can be project owners.
[10:22] <wgrant> jml: I'm not sure if it's meant to be allowed yet, but we intend to allow it in future, and there is at least one case on production already that I know about.
[10:24] <jml> wgrant: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1038782/ says otherwise.
[10:25] <wgrant> jml: Yeah, as I thought, it's not currently allowed. But https://launchpad.net/convoy is the production example I was thinking of.
[10:26] <jml> wgrant: ok, thanks
[10:26] <jml> we're in testfix mode now. I'm guessing it's due to the failure on the db_lp slave.
[10:26] <wgrant> It was more than likely spurious, can you retry?
[10:27] <wgrant> If you're there.
[10:27] <jml> I am. Just did.
[10:27] <wgrant> Thanks.
[10:29]  * jml wonders how long it takes for pqm to switch out of testfix
[10:30] <lifeless> jml: splitting out the bzr codehosting stuff doesn't imply splitting out the xmlrpc service
[10:30] <jml> lifeless: I know that.
[10:30] <lifeless> jml: the xmlrpc service talks to the LP db, it needs to stay unsplit, most vigorously.
[10:30] <lifeless> 22:18 < jml> and then I thought that you'd probably want to split out the xml-rpc service that codehosting talks to
[10:31] <lifeless> jml: ^ what did you mean by that then ?
[10:31] <jml> lifeless: I meant "want" rather than "need"
[10:31] <lifeless> jml: so I'm asserting that want is wrong.
[10:31] <jml> lifeless: so what's the principle, that only the appserver should talk directly to the db?
[10:31] <lifeless> yes.
[10:31] <lifeless> thats declared in the SOA docs FWIW.
[10:32] <lifeless> most of our scripts should be moved out of the core tree into API clients, for instance.
[10:32] <lifeless> the buildmaster likewise.
[10:32] <jml> lifeless: where abouts?
[10:32] <lifeless> one or more anciliary projects
[10:33] <jml> lifeless: yeah, the buildmaster is the other one I think about from time to time
[10:33] <lifeless> validated test doubles to preserve the contracts they need and let them be tested robustly.
[10:33] <jml> lifeless: it's fruit is higher up the tree
[10:33] <jml> lifeless: I mean, whereabouts is the "only appserver should talk to the DB" written? I don't recall it and a quick grep doesn't find it.
[10:34] <jml> s/it's/its/
[10:36] <lifeless> its not a rule-rule yet, because it would create massive instantaneous debt, but its a meme I keep harping on. The closest actual rule-thing for it is...
[10:38] <lifeless> https://dev.launchpad.net/ArchitectureGuide/ServicesAnalysis#Contracts_and_protocols
[10:38] <jml> lifeless: I guess I'm mostly interested in why it's a desirable thing.
[10:39] <lifeless> which has 'Access to a particular form of persistence (e.g. the librarians files-on-disk, or a particular postgresql schema) requires being in the same source tree as the definition of that persistence mechanism.'
[10:39] <lifeless> jml: managing complexity
[10:39] <jml> "Access to a particular form of persistence (e.g. the librarians files-on-disk, or a particular postgresql schema) requires being in the same source tree as the definition of that persistence mechanism."
[10:40] <lifeless> jml: two different servers means either db model code running in two different (perhaps wildly so) contexts, or just redundancy in layout
[10:40] <jml> lifeless: that makes sense, thanks.
[10:42] <lifeless> jml: anytime, I'm sure I put that in there somewhere
[10:43] <wgrant> However, most of codehosting's model probably doesn't belong in the main LP DB.
[10:43] <wgrant> :)
[10:44] <lifeless> wgrant: lp:~wgrant/launchpad/dspc-trgm-indices into lp:launchpad
[10:44] <lifeless> sholdn't thast be db-devel ?
[10:44] <wgrant> lifeless: Should be doable hot.
[10:44] <lifeless> absolutely, but,..
[10:45] <wgrant> Hot patches go to devel.
[10:45] <lifeless> unless jml butchered it, no they don't.
[10:45] <wgrant> We've done it this way since last year...
[10:45] <wgrant> Why wouldn't they?
[10:45] <wgrant> Hot index patches have always been applied live and landed on devel.
[10:45] <lifeless> nearly 11pm, not the time for me to be thinking about this.
[10:46] <lifeless> worth checking the history on https://dev.launchpad.net/PolicyAndProcess/DatabaseSchemaChangesProcess and seeing if a 'cleanup' actually made it incorrect.
[10:46] <wgrant> I haven't read that page this year :)
[10:46] <wgrant> So a recent cleanup certainly hasn't changed my view of it.
[10:47] <wgrant> Anyway, landing live-applied DB patches on db-devel provides no benefit and lots of confusion, so we shouldn't do it.
[10:47] <wgrant> But tomorrow :)
[10:47] <lifeless> wgrant: qa might be part of it, I'll have to page it in. Tomorrow
[10:48] <lifeless> also, you edited it in may, fibber ;)
[10:48]  * lifeless goes to sleep
[10:48] <wgrant> I didn't read it.
[10:48] <wgrant> I knew exactly the part that needed fixing :)
[10:49] <jml> lifeless: I'm pretty sure I didn't touch hot vs cold patches.
[10:49] <jml> g'night.
[10:51] <wgrant> cjwatson: Your column rename is done.
[10:51] <wgrant> cjwatson: You can remove the compat code.
[10:51] <wgrant> jml: Yours should happen on Friday.
[10:52] <jml> wgrant: hurrah.
[10:54] <jml> I'm keen to mark the LP side of our LP integration work as done.
[10:55] <stub> wgrant: We already have a GIN index on distributionsourcepackagecache(fti)
[10:55]  * stub checks if his branch landed
[10:55] <wgrant> stub: Oh right, just not in devel yet.
[10:55] <wgrant> It's in db-devel
[10:55] <wgrant> Next up
[10:55]  * wgrant removes that one.
[10:56] <ivory> frankban, rvba: thanks for the reviews
[10:56] <rvba> You're welcome ivory.
[10:56] <frankban> ivory: welcome
[11:09] <cjwatson> wgrant: Great, thanks.
[12:09] <cjwatson> I could use reviews of https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/pocket-permissions/+merge/110037 and https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/packageset-score-rename-finish/+merge/110046
[12:58] <cjwatson> gmb: I tried your suggestion in https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/export-change-override/+merge/109549 (http://paste.ubuntu.com/1038961/), but two problems: firstly, the title= override doesn't seem to take so the title is wrong in apidoc (it says "The priority being published into", which is less helpful); secondly, tests fail with http://paste.ubuntu.com/1038963/ suggesting that the magic translation ...
[12:58] <cjwatson> ... doesn't actually happen.
[12:59] <cjwatson> gmb: Do you know what I might be doing wrong?
[14:04] <deryck> adeuring, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/5aac2d43bc403742ae3a25334fb32476561cab82?authuser=0&hl=en
[15:18] <jamestunnicliffe> Hi, anyone got any idea why the expander icons have vanished from https://launchpad.net/~linaro-infrastructure/+upcomingwork ? The work with a recently merged (an hour ago) local instance.
[15:22] <jml> jamestunnicliffe: I think there might be a  known issue with sprites & chrome
[15:22] <jml> jamestunnicliffe: but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't have a bug number.
[15:24] <jamestunnicliffe> jml: Thanks. Firefox does show the sprites.
[15:24] <rick_h> looking, I wasn't aware we had any sprite issues.
[15:24] <sinzui> jamestunnicliffe, I think wallyworld has a fix for that. This affects webkit browsers.
[15:24] <rick_h> ah, it's the empty content
[15:25] <rick_h> if I put any content in there I get the sprite
[15:26] <sinzui> rick_h, it is more subtle than that. There is a leading space *before* the anchor. New webkit can show empty content, but space normalisation and stripping interfere
[15:26] <sinzui> rick_h, I still believe empty anchors are invalid though
[15:26] <rick_h> sinzui: yea, I'm pretty sure they are as well.
[15:27] <rick_h> wheee, the browser dance here's your chance...browser dance...do the browser dance... :)
[15:28] <sinzui> webkit wins one technical merit. gecko wins because it does what you expects
[15:32] <sinzui> jamestunnicliffe, report the missing expanders as a new bug and add the regression tag. wallyworld's fix does not fix the missing expanders
[15:33] <jamestunnicliffe> sinzui: Will do. Thanks for looking into it.
[15:45] <sinzui> deryck, abentley, mrevell, flacoste: I have written all that I recall proprietary projects need to do with bug linking. I think we can find the essential use cases from this http://blog.launchpad.net/general/bug-linking-part-2
[15:45] <mrevell> Thanks sinzui
[15:45] <abentley> sinzui: thanks.
[15:46] <czajkowski> sinzui: just posting it t places now
[15:46] <czajkowski> thanks
[15:46] <flacoste> adeuring: congratulate ivorykr8 for his first landing!
[15:47] <sinzui> oh, did he use my suggested text?
[15:47] <adeuring> flacoste: thanks, but congrats shoukd go to ivory
[15:47] <flacoste> ah, i wasn't sure if he renamed himself
[15:48] <flacoste> ivory: congrats on your first landing! should be out to qastaging pretty soon
[15:48] <czajkowski> ivory: well done
[15:49] <sinzui> it only took me 18 months to write that sentence
[15:51] <deryck> sinzui, thanks for writing that up.
[16:39] <czajkowski> jamestunnicliffe: have you seen  https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/1004416   wondering how similar it is to the one you just reported.
[16:39] <_mup_> Bug #1004416: Work Items not allowing users to edit them properly <work-item-tracker> <Launchpad itself:Triaged by linaro-infrastructure> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1004416 >
[16:50] <sinzui> czajkowski, I think they are the same issue
[16:51] <czajkowski> sinzui: I thought so too but wanted to check as I've tried to recreate the blueprint one but not seeing the issue, but I know others are having issues with them
[17:53] <timrc> Hi, my understanding is that subscribing an individual to a Private PPA via the Manage Access view gives them "read" access to the PPA.  Someone just reported that they attempted to do this for an individual, but they were unable to access +packages? How would I go about giving an individual read-only access to the PPA in terms of installing packages and accessing the UI?
[18:31] <lifeless> sinzui: bug 1012787 - what mails are going to the team membership ? {I'm wondering if its unneeded complexity and that the actual problem is unnecessary notification emails/implicit subscriptions}
[18:31] <_mup_> Bug #1012787: cannot team restrict emails to go to the team admin <email> <linaro> <teams> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1012787 >
[18:38] <sinzui> lifeless, joey can provide example of emails that he does not want members to get
[19:01] <joey> aloha
[19:01] <lifeless> aloha
[19:01] <lifeless> so, what are the symptoms you're seeing ?
[19:02] <joey> I'll email you, lifeless, and sinzui,  a typical example
[19:05] <sinzui> thank you
[19:06] <joey> ok it's on it's way to your @c.c ids
[19:16] <joey> sinzui: lifeless - btw there's one more thing
[19:17] <joey> sinzui: lifeless - when IS makes a change to the teams for example, I get a raft of "Security exposure! This guy isn't part of Linaro. He's touching our stuff!" emails
[19:17] <joey> sinzui: lifeless - It's a headache since it happens a lot
[19:17] <joey> sinzui: lifeless - that's part of the reason I went to ~linaro-sysadmins so they see my name on it and mostly they ignore it
[19:17] <sinzui> joey. That last part is very interesting
[19:18] <joey> sinzui: yeah I have to imagine other projects may get that from time to time
[19:18] <joey> sinzui: especially when they touch private teams
[19:19] <joey> czajkowski: ^^
[19:28] <lifeless> joey: that refers to mail from linaro folk that don't recognise e.g. stephanie miller ?
[19:28] <joey> lifeless: correct
[19:29] <joey> lifeless: they rightfully query me which is good but you see the overall issue
[19:30] <joey> I guess to some extend Linaro might be a special case but if was with, say, Mozilla, and someone did that  they didn't know they would probably have a similar reaction
[19:39] <czajkowski> sinzui: in all the disclosure work you're doing, is there anything being done to tell people the bug they are trying to view is a private bug so they understand when they cant find it ?
[19:41] <sinzui> czajkowski, We are still debating this. private things are officially 404 and we do not talk about privacy
[19:41] <czajkowski> well it would cut down on questions we get a lot of https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/200348
[19:41] <sinzui> czajkowski, the underlying problem is the people (and bots) are inconsiderate of others when marking bugs duplicates
[19:42] <czajkowski> it's not clear to users why they cant see it but it's being referenced so it's confusing
[19:42] <sinzui> I hope that Lp will force users to be considerate when the Orange Mafia work on bug linkings
[19:43] <czajkowski> if there is no bug open on this will create one as I think it'd be good to address
[19:43] <sinzui> czajkowski, private bugs in non-commercial projects should never be the master of a duplicate. People and bots are being complete and utter bastards to other users
[19:43] <czajkowski> the current error or lack of information is not ideal.
[19:43] <czajkowski> sinzui: no arguements from me there :)
[19:43] <sinzui> We have several open bugs
[19:44] <czajkowski> sinzui: I only understand this now from working on LP, before I used to find it rude and annoying, now I just find it annoying
[19:44] <sinzui> bug 434733 I cited in my blog bost today is the one users most care about
[19:44] <_mup_> Bug #434733: marking public bug as duplicate of private bug leads to confusing UI <chr> <confusing-ui> <lp-bugs> <privacy> <qa-untestable> <ui> <Launchpad itself:In Progress by stevenk> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/434733 >
[20:02] <joey> sinzui: the way I've begun to look at things now is with a UX hat on.  It's not sufficient to say "my service isn't responsible".  If the service is able to help mitigate a social problem, oftentimes it's worth the time and effort (assuming it's done correctly)
[20:02] <joey> sinzui: and it helps to clear up ill perceptions
[20:12] <lifeless> czajkowski: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apport/+bug/764414
[20:12] <_mup_> Bug #764414: private master bugs are confusing and lead to more duplicate filings <pet-bug> <apport (Ubuntu):Triaged by pitti> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/764414 >
[20:12] <lifeless> joey: ^
[20:12] <lifeless> thats the root cause; its what causes the bad experience.
[20:12] <lifeless> We could fix it in a heartbeat, by stopping apport doing it.
[20:13] <lifeless> But that would be a litle unreasonable to do unilaterally.
[20:14] <czajkowski> lifeless: thanks.
[20:14] <czajkowski> never seen a tag - pet-bug before
[20:17] <joey> yeah I remember that bug :-)
[20:17] <joey> caused me grief in OEM
[20:17] <czajkowski> joey: why ?
[20:17] <joey> in the OEM days public was public and private was NDA'd so you couldn't even acknowledge the two
[20:18] <joey> so you might have a public Ubuntu bug that was created and a dup of a private OEM bug, but you could do touch it
[20:18] <czajkowski> ah gotcha
[20:18] <joey> but anyway, there is usually a solution if you can think out of the box and, crucially, have some resource to work on it
[20:19] <joey> in the bug lifeless mentioned, you can't futz with apport because it'll break things
[20:19] <joey> but you could have a background service process that interrogates bugs and does bug matching...but that is very expensive
[20:20] <joey> and I fear the algorithm would be more prone to failure than success
[20:20] <lifeless> joey: we can change apport, pitti in principle agreed to what I suggested.
[20:20] <lifeless> joey: the problem is resources.
[20:21] <joey> lifeless: Good to know. I guess you solved it somehow other than making apport aware of private bugs?
[20:21] <joey> apport on the client machine that is
[20:21] <lifeless> joey: huh? this isn't client side.
[20:21] <lifeless> joey: its all server side + how devs do their bug management.
[20:21] <joey> lifeless: ok you just confirmed my suspicion
[20:22] <lifeless> joey: the apport retracer is the thing that makes bug A a dupe of bug Master.
[20:22] <lifeless> And bug Master is allowed to be private.
[20:22] <joey> ah right, that's where I was headed with the service process comment above...was just being a bit general
[20:22] <joey> still, you need dev time to make it happen
[20:23] <joey> anyway, dead horse :-)
[20:23] <lifeless> joey: *we* don't, Ubuntu do :)
[20:24] <lifeless> joey: this isn't something we can directly fix :(
[20:24] <joey> lol
[20:24] <lifeless> Even supplying a patch isn't enough, the stuff that needs finesse and time is social.
[20:39] <lifeless> sinzui: so joeys mail; the point solution there is perhaps 'only tell admins about team join events', that is there is no action for members to take.
[20:39] <lifeless> or maybe even only owners.
[20:39] <sinzui> lifeless, admins I think. the owner can be an admin if he chooses
[20:39] <lifeless> members are not expected to do anything as a result of a team join (ignoring mailing lists for a second)
[20:40] <sinzui> lifeless, and if this is the case, I suspect we can duplicate this bug
[20:40] <lifeless> sinzui: for mailing lists, they still don't need to do anything, unless their list preference is 'ask me about subscribing when I join a list team'
[20:40] <lifeless> joey: are there other sorts of mails than that one that you sent us ?
[20:41] <sinzui> lifeless, agreed
[20:41] <joey> lifeless: that's the standard mail I receive along with the "who's Stephanie Miller and why is she touching our Linaro stuff?" emails.
[20:42] <joey> sinzui: lifeless - I'm ok with admins vs owners.
[20:42] <joey> sinzui: lifeless - just anything other than rank and file members
[20:42] <joey> If I think about it, admin is the probably the correct decision
[20:42] <sinzui> joey owners can leave the team, they have delegate the running of it to the admins.
[20:43] <sinzui> owner can take back control if they want
[20:43] <joey> sinzui: well in my case, ~linaro-sysadmins are not members, only owners
[20:43] <joey> sinzui: so I guess I'd need both owner and admin
[20:43] <sinzui> ah, so they should not ever get notifications.
[20:43] <joey> I'm sure if you do it one way someone will complain that they want it the other
[20:44] <joey> sinzui: in my case, having ~linaro-sysadmins as part of the team screws up the milestone view in LP so we have to remove them for metrics and such
[20:44] <sinzui> joey, can I see en example of a team that ~linaro-sysadmin owns
[20:44] <joey> sinzui: think  status.linaro.org
[20:44] <joey> sinzui: ~linaro
[20:44] <joey> sinzui: actually, anything ~linaro and ~linaro-*
[20:45] <joey> sinzui: also we have some private or access restricted teams and we don't want members/partners/etc looking at the team list and wondering who the sysadmins are
[20:45] <joey> just prevents questions
[20:45] <joey> is that a firm requirement? no
[20:45] <sinzui> joey, https://launchpad.net/~linaro/+members says ~linaro-sysadmin are the only admins
[20:45] <joey> sinzui: yeah that's the one case :-)
[20:46] <joey> sinzui: look at any of the sub-teams
[20:52] <joey> sinzui: I suppose the safer approach is admins & owners but the more expensive approach is a tick box for each.  Just me thinking out loud. You're the right brain to noodle on it.
[20:52] <sinzui> joey, we really make a point of not contact owners that are not admins
[20:53] <joey> sinzui: I think I can live that
[20:53] <joey> sinzui: I miss the change notifications but frankly, if something is not working, someone is going to me
[20:53] <joey> sinzui: and eventually ping the linaro sysadmins
[20:53] <joey> sinzui: and I do want the team admins to be fully engaged in their teams
[20:54] <joey> sinzui: so I can deal with admin only
[20:54] <joey> sinzui: I've often wanted a "reason box" when adding people just like deleting them but that's another story for another day :-)
[20:56] <sinzui> joey. I too see a cluster of issues here that would be nice to fix in a single branch. Limit who gets the email, fix the headers and rationale, state in the UI who gets the emails
[22:11] <sinzui> jcsackett, mumble?
[22:36] <wgrant> benji: Is your removal of logs/ just a day after its creation deliberate?
[22:54] <cjwatson> Hm, OCR not on channel
[22:54] <cjwatson> I'd like to get https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/pocket-permissions/+merge/110037 landed in the not too distant future, since the code on prod is broken (not a regression, but still).  Anyone up for a review of some URL traversal code?
[22:55] <wgrant> cjwatson: Looking.
[22:57] <wgrant> 37	item = ("type=packageset&item=%s&series=%s" %
[22:57] <wgrant> 38	(self.context.package_set_name,
[22:57] <wgrant> 39	self.context.distro_series_name))
[22:57] <wgrant> Ew
[22:58] <StevenK> wgrant: If you make some broad statement about that line wrapping being as bad as mine, I might have to get offended. :-P
[22:58] <wgrant> Not line-wrapping.
[22:58] <wgrant> That code is just wrong :)
[22:58] <cjwatson> wgrant: That's the pre-existing bit isn't it?
[22:58] <wgrant> It is, yes.
[22:58] <wgrant> It's also horrible.
[22:58] <wgrant> But not your fault.
[22:58] <cjwatson> (For my edification, what's horrible?)
[22:59] <wgrant> You can't just stuff arbitrary strings into application/x-www-form-encoded and hope it works.
[22:59] <wgrant> eg. if a name contains + that will break.
[22:59] <cjwatson> Entertaining
[22:59] <wgrant> application/x-www-form-urlencoded, that is
[23:00] <cjwatson> Should it be escaped or totally rearranged? :-)
[23:00] <cjwatson> (Academic since I hope not to have to touch that again.)
[23:02] <wgrant> "escaped" is the wrong way to think about it. The query string should be formed using urllib.urlencode({'type': 'packageset', 'item': self.context.package_set_name, 'series': self.context.distro_series_name}) or so.
[23:03] <wgrant> cjwatson: r=me
[23:03] <wgrant> Feel free to rewrite that doctest to be unit tests that are about 90% smaller, but I doubt I can convince you to do that...
[23:04] <cjwatson> Well, I've done it for a bunch of my other branches recently
[23:05] <cjwatson> In this case I sort of want to get the fix in quickly rather than spending another half a day rewriting doctests, though
[23:05] <wgrant> Exactly :)
[23:05] <cjwatson> How about I queue it up as first against the wall for the next time I want LoC?
[23:05] <wgrant> It's fine as it is.
[23:05] <wgrant> But yes, that would indeed be a good idea.
[23:05] <cjwatson> "fine" in the limited sense that any doctest can be fine.
[23:05] <wgrant> doctest-slaying is a pretty good way to get LoC
[23:06] <cjwatson> Most of the time, yeah.
[23:06] <cjwatson> I'm not convinced my xx-*-package-publishing.txt rewrite is going to be much of a wine
[23:06] <cjwatson> *win
[23:08] <cjwatson> wgrant: Thanks, sending to EC2.  I hope it sticks this time.
[23:08] <wgrant> cjwatson: Seems like it should. Thanks for fixing that.
[23:13] <lifeless> hmm, js.js for foreign sourced scripts
[23:14] <cjwatson> wgrant: I'd still like to get the queue-api review finished, but that might be a bit much for first thing in the morning. :-)
[23:15] <wgrant> lifeless: Along with its nodejs integration, js.js.js?
[23:17] <wgrant> cjwatson: Looking at your others new.
[23:17] <wgrant> queue-api will be done gradually over the day, I suspect :)
[23:17] <wgrant> packageset-score-rename-finish approved
[23:17] <cjwatson> Heh, yeah
[23:18] <wgrant> What's export-change-override up to?
[23:18] <cjwatson> I queried gmb about his comment earlier today, but haven't heard back.
[23:18] <cjwatson> 13:58 <cjwatson> gmb: I tried your suggestion in https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/export-change-override/+merge/109549 (http://paste.ubuntu.com/1038961/), but two problems: firstly, the title=
[23:18] <cjwatson>                  override doesn't seem to take so the title is wrong in apidoc (it says "The priority being published into", which is less helpful); secondly, tests fail with http://paste.ubuntu.com/1038963/
[23:18] <cjwatson>                  suggesting that the magic translation ...
[23:18] <wgrant> Ah
[23:18] <cjwatson> 13:58 <cjwatson> ... doesn't actually happen.
[23:18] <cjwatson> 13:59 <cjwatson> gmb: Do you know what I might be doing wrong?
[23:18] <wgrant> Saw that but forgot about it, indeed.
[23:19] <wgrant> cjwatson: If you're going to make it more widely available, you might consider fixing bug #530020 while you're there
[23:19] <_mup_> Bug #530020: change-override.py should forbid modifications of the RELEASE pocket of non-development series <lp-soyuz> <soyuz-ftpmaster-tools> <soyuz-publish> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/530020 >
[23:19] <cjwatson> p-s-r-f: thanks, can I have Status: Approved and I'll land it?
[23:19] <cjwatson> Oh, interesting
[23:19] <wgrant> Hm, I did.
[23:19] <wgrant> Maybe I have too many MPs open so longpoll is killing the world.
[23:19] <wgrant> Indeed.
[23:19]  * StevenK stabs longpoll
[23:19] <wgrant> Fixed.
[23:21] <lifeless> wgrant: js.js.js would be most fun
[23:21] <cjwatson> Happy to stall export-change-override on 530020, though probably not tonight.
[23:22] <wgrant> cjwatson: Should be a ~2-line fix + tests, and it seems like a good idea to do it before exposing it, so that'd be nice, thanks.
[23:23] <cjwatson> Well, ~4 'cos there are two changeOverride methods to consider, but yes :-)
[23:23] <wgrant> True.
[23:26] <StevenK> wgrant: Oh, HAH.
[23:26] <StevenK> wgrant: IBranchNamespace.createBranch() still had explicitly_private in it.
[23:26] <wgrant> That would do it.
[23:30] <StevenK> I'm using test_branchmergeproposal as my canary, and I've dropped from 305 failures to 24. Something else is touching transitively_private inappropiately.
[23:39] <StevenK> Right, 1 failure, and that's 2.7
[23:39] <StevenK> wgrant: So I want to stop setting them too?
[23:40] <wgrant> The DB columns still need to be set in the first branch.
[23:40] <wgrant> But they must not be read.
[23:45] <wgrant> wallyworld: Bug #1012912 might be of interest. Found it during QA of your changes from yesterday, but it's not a regression in them.
[23:45] <_mup_> Bug #1012912: +filebug choice popups break when the user is unprivileged <disclosure> <javascript> <trivial> <ui> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1012912 >
[23:46] <wallyworld> ok, will fix thanks
[23:54] <StevenK> wgrant: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1039933/
[23:56] <wgrant> StevenK: If that fixes it.
[23:56] <StevenK> wgrant: Drops the failures from 305 to 1, and that one is a 2.7 thing.
[23:58] <wgrant> Sounds good.
[23:58]  * StevenK re-tosses at ec2


[00:32] <aliksy> I have a newbie question.  When I put in an audio cd it doesnt the usual thing where it puts the icon on the desktop, and i cant find it when browsing.  I am new at things. I do not understand mounting.
[00:37] <aliksy> Anyone?
[00:56] <JPohlmann> knome: What? Tabs in the settings manager? What's that?
[01:19] <Mood> aliksy: still having issues?
[01:30] <B0BBY> Hello People.
[01:30] <B0BBY> doing an ls takes a long time. So when trying to run fsck on the / parition, it warns about data loss. What is the proper thing to do?
[01:34] <David-A> B0BBY: save important files (you should have a recent backup already, right?)
[01:34] <David-A> on a cd or usb or external disk
[01:34] <B0BBY> David-A: most of the stuff is not missino critical on xubuntu.
[01:34] <B0BBY> but on the dual boot windows there's a lot of stuff that's important.
[01:35] <B0BBY> but the windows partitino should be fine, no?
[01:36] <David-A> David-A: if it is on the same physical disk it is just a matter of time, i think
[01:37]  * David-A talking to himself?
[01:37]  * B0BBY wonders same about David-A
[01:37] <B0BBY> :P
[01:37] <B0BBY> ok. then next is to do what? Run fsck.ext3 anyhoo?
[01:38] <B0BBY> or can I schedule that to run at startup?
[01:39] <David-A> if smartmontools isnt installed, try smartctl from a livecd (installing it on the harddisk is not too good if it is giving up, better try save things)
[01:39] <David-A> smartctl can test the drive and report ageing statistics
[01:40] <B0BBY> meh, I'll install it anyhoo. LOL
[01:41] <David-A> you have backup of the important files on the win partition? if not, dont postpone it too long
[01:42] <B0BBY> David-A: it's moe of a work laptop. So I use it for work VPN. So not so much the files to save. But rather to use as dumb terminal and then connect to work stuff.
[01:43] <B0BBY> http://pastebin.com/fe3b1fae
[01:45] <B0BBY> has pre-fail labels....
[01:50] <David-A> B0BBY: "Pre-fail" is just the Type of parameter. The "-" means no alarm yet.
[01:50] <David-A> All "Value" > "Threshold" (less Value is worse) so aging-wise the disk seems ok
[01:51] <B0BBY> David-A: I'll read it again and understand the output.
[01:52] <B0BBY> So do I run fsck? Or just reboot a few times. it seems to be ok now.
[01:54] <David-A> Did you start a self-test via smartctl? It can run while you work. There is a quick one and a little longer one.
[01:55] <B0BBY> self test? let me check.
[01:57] <B0BBY> ok, I see smartctl --all --test-long  . that one?
[01:58] <David-A> I dont remember. Just make sure its the one that dont distroy data and that can run while mounted.
[01:58] <B0BBY> ok, it says Execute SMART extended self-test routine immediately in off-line mode.
[01:59] <B0BBY> Testing has begun. lease wait 30 min. So it should be ok. it didn't warn or anything about dangers of running it.
[01:59] <David-A> ok, check its log when it is estimated to be finished
[02:00] <David-A> hm, let me check what "off-line" means...
[02:34] <JuanL> anyone know a good Remote Desktop Viewer for xubuntu? i'm trying to connect to a windows xp computer. what program do you reccomend?
[02:51] <JuanL> anyone?
[02:55] <JuanL> so does everyone just come here to chill out? :(
[02:59] <David-A> no, we see the Q but dont know the A and keep quiet (imagine if everyone said "i dont know" alll the time!)
[03:00] <David-A> (and yes, we are here to chill out too) :)
[03:03]  * David-A realised juan has left
[05:10] <Ish> sup?
[05:11] <n2diy> Ish: two failed CD burns, and now I'm out of blank CD's, so no Xubuntu tonight. Whas up with you?
[05:12] <Ish> not much
[05:13] <Ish> going to internet some
[05:14] <Ish> you should get more cd's
[05:14] <Ish> or fail your  burnings less
[05:14] <n2diy> yes, and yes.
[05:15] <n2diy> I'm moving into a new place, and my blanks are still in storage. Don't know why the burns are failing, Ubuntu 8.04 burned ok, this box proves that.
[05:17] <n2diy> I"m going to go hang out in #ubuntu, cul.
[05:17] <Ish> my cd had a small problem with install, but we pulled through
[05:23] <zoredache_> Ish: have you considered tryint to do a setup with usb, or just burning a mini.iso?  When you are only using a 8mb image there is a much smaller chance of download/burn issues
[05:24] <Ish> i'm good, sounds like n2diy needs the help
[05:25] <Ish> i had a weird startup-problem though.  it goes into a "Busybox" when i restart, i have to type "exit" and enter to get to the login prompt
[05:26] <zoredache_> hrm...
[05:30] <n2diy> Ish: the problem i have with my two burns is I boot into busybox and get an intramfs prompt. I thought that was normal, but I'm told it isn't.
[05:31] <n2diy> and that happens when I try to install, or verify the disks.
[05:32] <Ish> idk about this intramfs
[10:41] <taw> Suggestions for light, basic image editor
[10:42] <taw> for cropping, scaling, rotating digicam shots
[10:44] <ablomen> taw, gthumb image viewer can do all that, and you could always use the gimp
[10:46] <taw> somebody at other channel suggester f-spot
[10:46] <ablomen> oh that might be able to do it too, dont have it installed :)
[10:47] <taw> I don't have it or gthump, have to install both :-)
[10:48] <ablomen> yeah try them and see which fits you best :)
[10:48] <taw> just waiting them to flow in
[10:57] <taw> hmm, f-spot doesn't have what I asked for?
[10:58] <taw> and gthumb does the work, but UI needs bit too many clicks to get cropping done, but quite ok
[10:58] <Myrtti> it doesn't? I'm fairly sure it does...
[10:58] <Myrtti> I think.
[10:58] <Myrtti> don't have it installed but I remember using it for those
[11:00] <taw> hmm, maybe wrong command line options
[11:00] <taw> I tried first 'f-spot file.jpg'
[11:00] <taw> and it gives me usage, where I took '-v -view            view file(s) or directory(ies)'
[11:00] <taw> maybe that's not correct option
[11:01] <taw> and it wants to keep some database
[11:01] <taw> oh my, old XV was fine
[11:11] <taw> 'f-spot -i .' might work, but I don't want picture database, Iwant edit one picture
[11:11] <taw> gthumb at least was one step better
[11:43] <jedhunsaker> hi
[11:43] <jedhunsaker> linux noob here
[11:43] <jedhunsaker> is there any reason to install an old version of xubuntu?
[11:43] <jedhunsaker> if hardware specs are low?
[11:44] <jedhunsaker> i'm installing the latest xubuntu on a laptop w/ only 128mb ram
[11:45] <taw> to get lighter you would need to install very old version
[11:46] <taw> it's more about programs you run
[11:46] <jedhunsaker> oh yeah? so i can't disable features to make it lighter?
[11:46] <jedhunsaker> would you recommend then that i install xubuntu like... version 7.04 feisty?
[11:46] <Myrtti> jedhunsaker: to be honest, I'd use the Ubuntu minimal cd to install the barebone version and handpick what I'd want, perhaps not even xfce at all
[11:47] <Myrtti> you've got terribly little ram
[11:47] <jedhunsaker> lol i know, friends cpu
[11:47] <jedhunsaker> i have the ubuntu alternate installation cd
[11:47] <jedhunsaker> i already had ubuntu installed this way
[11:47] <jedhunsaker> but i heard xubuntu was lighter
[11:48] <Myrtti> it is to a certain degree
[11:48] <ablomen> jedhunsaker, its lighter than gnome or kde
[11:48] <Myrtti> but not that far :-/
[11:48] <ablomen> but not light enough
[11:48] <jedhunsaker> how far back (old version) should i go?
[11:48] <Myrtti> you really want specifically xfce?
[11:48] <jedhunsaker> i had feisty installed (7.04) but then it said i could install updates for 7.10
[11:49] <jedhunsaker> not necessarily
[11:49] <jedhunsaker> i just want it to run fast
[11:49] <jedhunsaker> relatively
[11:49] <jedhunsaker> that's what the girl who owns it wants anyway
[11:49] <Myrtti> because you can get the latest 8.10 with the ubuntu-minimal, and install something like icewm instead of xfce and hand pick the apps that would run smoothest
[11:49] <jedhunsaker> and itunes, but she's probably pressing her luck there
[11:49] <taw> Myrtti, for getting really lighter you should go to days that amount of mem & cpu was at least some how decent
[11:50] <taw> distros 7-10 years ago
[11:50] <Myrtti> taw: I used icewm in the days when that amount was decent
[11:50] <taw> I use fvwm still
[11:50] <jedhunsaker> so it's the gui that really defines performance?
[11:50] <taw> haven't found any other which has that configurability
[11:50] <Myrtti> I still wouldn't get an *old* version
[11:51] <jedhunsaker> see that's what i was thinkin' Murtti
[11:51] <Myrtti> old means there's bugs that have later been fixed, perhaps even security threats
[11:51] <taw> I agree
[11:51] <Myrtti> so get ubuntu-minimal or debian, that's up to date
[11:51] <mnemoc> hi, anyone knows when the ppa for intrepid will get updated to the final 4.6?
[11:51] <jedhunsaker> so i should just keep this xubuntu installation and turn off features then
[11:51] <Myrtti> jedhunsaker: if you insist on having xubuntu
[11:51] <Myrtti> yes
[11:52] <jedhunsaker> ubuntu-minimal, or that
[11:52] <jedhunsaker> only thing is i just had ubuntu on
[11:52] <jedhunsaker> and replaced it with xubuntu
[11:52] <jedhunsaker> kinda don't want to go back again
[11:52] <jedhunsaker> thanks Murtti
[11:52] <jedhunsaker> Myrtti
[11:54] <taw> xubuntu is ok, just replace xfce with something ligter
[11:54] <taw> use lightest browser
[11:54] <taw> etc
[11:55] <jedhunsaker> what's lighter than xfce?
[11:55] <jedhunsaker> that still has a gui?
[11:56] <jedhunsaker> i see the minimal cd files... 6.06, 6.10, 7.04, 7.10, 8.04, 8.10
[11:57] <jedhunsaker> my only concern is that i won't know which packages to install
[11:57] <jedhunsaker> as i am new to linux
[11:57] <taw> what you mean gui?
[11:57] <taw> dekstop icons?
[11:57] <jedhunsaker> i mean something more than a command shell
[11:57] <jedhunsaker> yeah
[11:58] <jedhunsaker> what's lighter than xfce?
[11:58] <jedhunsaker> i heard about DSL (damn small linux)
[11:58] <jedhunsaker> but
[11:58] <jedhunsaker> i don't think it has a gui
[11:58] <taw> for me, my fvwm has enough gui
[11:58] <taw> it has menus, and from menu I can open apps I need
[11:58] <Myrtti> or icewm
[11:59] <taw> nearly all wm's have menus, but desktop, no
[11:59] <Myrtti> jedhunsaker: and of course you'd use the latest minimal cd
[11:59] <ablomen> icewm looks and feels a lot like the gui in windows 95/98 and is verry light, that might be the best option
[12:00] <jedhunsaker> i can install that right on top of xfce though and make it the default, no?
[12:00] <taw> on gdm you can select which session to use when logging in
[12:02] <ablomen> ( so thats a yes )
[12:09] <jedhunsaker> Murtti: what theme do you use for icewm? IceQua looks nice...
[12:10] <jedhunsaker> test
[12:10] <taw> on low mem installations even themes may have bad effect on performance
[12:11] <taw> nice looging gradient fills, etc
[12:11] <taw> solid colors are faster to draw
[12:12] <jedhunsaker> yeah, but i'm such an art snob
[12:12] <taw> bacground image takes memory, solid one color background
[12:12] <jedhunsaker> << art student
[12:12] <jedhunsaker> ha
[12:13] <jedhunsaker> ok thanks guys... i have to be sleeping now
[12:13] <jedhunsaker> you've been a lot of help
[12:13] <jedhunsaker> i appreciate it
[12:13] <basajaun> hi all
[12:13] <jedhunsaker> hi basa
[12:13] <basajaun> hi jedhunsaker
[12:13] <taw> I need lunch
[12:13] <taw> should had that 2 hours ago
[12:16] <basajaun> trying to solve the mystery of vanished compositing tab from the manage tweak window
[12:18] <Myrtti> oh, he "mentioned" me...
[12:18] <Myrtti> I wish people would do tab completion :-<
[12:25] <basajaun> lol
[12:59] <Puppet_Master> Hello
[14:56] <PKodon> Okay, is there a better program for managing the menus in XFCE than what is built-into XFCE?
[14:57] <vinnl> Nope
[14:57] <ball> One of the things like like about Blackbox is that the menus are a simple flat text file
[14:57] <PKodon> Or do I have to continue to find and edit .desktop files?
[14:57] <ball> ...so once I have it configured, I can simply copy the file everywhere it's applicable.
[14:57] <vinnl> Yes :)
[14:59] <mnemoc> hi, anyone knows when the ppa for intrepid will get updated to the final 4.6?
[15:01] <PKodon> vinnl: Not what I wanted to hear, but I guess that's what I get for using Linux. Two things I wish were easier: adding menu entries for programs that don't add themselves to the menu, and moving stuff that is in the wrong place (like all the menu entries for programs installed under Wine going in one menu, no sub-menus).
[15:02] <vinnl> mnemoc, jeromeg has a PPA with Intrepid packages for 4.6
[15:02] <vinnl> PKodon, will all be possible when Xfce 4.8 is released, but that's not of much help now :(
[15:02] <PKodon> It's rather confusing to see a whole bunch of "readme" entries, and no idea which program they go to.
[15:02] <vinnl> GNOME and KDE can both do it, has nothing to do with Linux in general though
[15:02] <vinnl> brb
[15:02] <PKodon> vinnl: Well, thanks anyway.
[15:04] <mnemoc> vinnl: http://ppa.launchpad.net/jerome-guelfucci/ppa <--- this?
[15:07] <mnemoc> vinnl: thanks!
[15:07] <vinnl> mnemoc, yep :)
[15:14] <PKodon> vinnl: BTW, when installing programs under Wine gloms everything in one menu, is that a fault of Wine or XFCE?
[15:15] <vinnl> PKodon, which menu?
[15:15] <PKodon> Well, in PC/OS, it's all stuck in Other
[15:16] <vinnl> I believe it's sort of both at fault... There was a bugreport on this a while ago and I believe the suggested fix was in Wine's .desktop files
[15:16] <PKodon> If I install 5 programs with Wine, there may be 5 "readme" entries in "Other", plus all the others menu entries. To get them in sub-menus I have to physically go change the .desktop files.
[15:17] <vinnl> Yeah, not pleasant...
[15:18] <PKodon> I just reinstalled PC/OS, so I don't have anything in there right now, but I think when Wine sets up the .desktop files, it doesn't put them in sub-directories named for the program (or in the .desktop files it doesn't define where the program should go).
[15:19] <vinnl> I believe it does do this in Ubuntu so I suppose it's using a menu category not supported by Xfce or something
[15:20] <PKodon> Interesting, though, the new release of PC/OS gives you a menu entry for a root file manager, so I don't have to use a sudo command to change things.
[15:21] <vinnl> I've personally set up a "Open as root" custom action in Thunar
[15:21] <mnemoc> vinnl: most packages are still 4.5.91-1 there :\
[15:21] <vinnl> True? Hmmm...
[15:22] <mnemoc> oh, no... sorry
[15:22] <vinnl> ^.^
[15:22] <mnemoc> replacing my 4.5.91-1 ancient stuff with 4.6.
[15:22]  * mnemoc needs more coffee :p
[15:23] <PKodon> vinnl: It's also a bit confusing to have all Wine-installed programs listed in "Other", since "Other" seems to have no connection (visually) with Wine.
[15:24] <vinnl> Yeah I know
[15:24] <PKodon> Anyway, I guess I'll do some more research, I'll have to make some notes as to where I find things and what to do to change them. If I do that, I'll be able to remember it better (than following someone else's instructions).
[15:25] <vinnl> PKodon, Wine applications are (I believe) in ~/.local/share/applications/wine
[15:26] <PKodon> I found some "portable" versions of some games I have on several websites (you can put them on USB stick and run them from there - leaves nothing on the machine you run them on) and I have to figgure out how to set up some way to see them in the menu when they're there.
[15:28] <vinnl> You could set up a script that creates the required .desktop files when your stick is plugged in, I suppose... But that's a bit of a drag
[15:28] <vinnl> That said, I don't know of any other OS that can do that
[15:29] <PKodon> Oh, there was one other thing, some games and other programs in Wine change the screen resolution and go full-screen, but the XFCE panel still shows (and covers up anything at the bottom of the screen). The mouse then goes behind the panel, and you can't see what you're clicking on, nor can you access the panel.
[15:29] <PKodon> Not all full-screen windows programs act that way, though, so it's confusing.
[15:29] <ablomen> PKodon, one way around that is letting wine create a smaller virtual desktop
[15:30] <PKodon> Yeah, I've tried that. I'
[15:32] <PKodon> Er, I've got the normal resolution 1280x1024, and set up Wine to do a desktop of 1280x960. However, at that resolution, programs that show up as full-screen 640x480 end up displaying in the upper-left-hand corner of that screen (instead of the center), and are difficult to read.
[15:36] <PKodon> Oh, on a different topic, I have a Dell LCD display, and an nVidia GeForce2 graphics card, with the EnvyNG drivers installed. The monitor's controls don't include a screen size adjustment, just position. Is there any way to control screen size through the graphics card?
[15:37] <PKodon> (display adjustment, not resolution)
[15:38] <PKodon> Oops, it's a GeForce3, sorry.
[15:41] <Hermenegil> does someone else upgrade to xfce4-4.6 ?  I can't find "Setting Manager" in the menu.
[15:42] <vinnl> Hermenegil, it should be there, just as the normal settings items
[15:43] <charlie-tca> Shouldn't need it. Applications -> Settings -> Xfce 4 Settings Manager
[15:44] <charlie-tca> Also, in Xubuntu, most of the settings are now listed when you click Applications -> Settings
[15:44] <Hermenegil> its not there ??
[15:44] <charlie-tca> Is this in Jaunty?
[15:44] <charlie-tca> or, what version of Xubuntu?
[15:45] <Hermenegil> Intrepid
[15:45] <charlie-tca> Did you install from the PPA?
[15:45] <Hermenegil> yes
[15:46] <charlie-tca> you could as on #xfce, either you need another package in the PPA or it is a bug
[15:53] <Hermenegil> mm, sorry whats "PPA" ?  I downloaded two files manually "xfce4-4.6-installer.run" and "xfce-goodies-4.6-installer.run"
[15:53] <mnemoc> how can one enable the "faces" in the gdm team for Xfce? (8.10+jeromeg's ppa)
[15:54] <mnemoc> Hermenegil: a personal repository
[15:54] <mnemoc> s/team/theme/
[15:54] <vinnl> Hermenegil, "Personal Package Archive", it's a place where people can store installation files (.deb packages) they made for Ubuntu specifically
[15:54] <charlie-tca> Hermenegil: then it won't work. It has to packaged for Xubuntu
[15:54] <vinnl> mnemoc, you need to use a theme that supports them
[15:55] <charlie-tca> Hermenegil: You are missing needed files for settings manager to be there
[15:55] <mnemoc> vinnl: there is any theme with faces saying xubuntu?
[15:55] <vinnl> Don't think so
[15:55] <mnemoc> :(
[15:55] <vinnl> Well, I made one a *long* time ago but that was ugly :P
[15:55] <vinnl> I believe it's not that difficult, let me check
[15:55] <mnemoc> =)
[15:58] <charlie-tca> Hermenegil: here are the files needed to install Xfce 4.6 on Intrepid - Get it here: https://launchpad.net/~jerome-guelfucci/+archive/ppa . File the bugs against it on http://bugzilla.xfce.org/ .
[15:59] <vinnl> mnemoc, I don't know how quickly you're with picking this up, but I suppose you can come quite far if you look at an example theme that uses a list in /usr/share/gdm/themes
[16:00] <mnemoc> vinnl: thanks for the hint :) i'll look into that
[16:01] <vinnl> yw :)
[16:01] <mnemoc> my smaller daughter can't type her name yet and she can be very anoying when asking
[16:01] <vinnl> Ah, understandably
[16:01] <vinnl> You could use a theme that doesn't say Xubuntu, though ;-)
[16:02] <mnemoc> nah
[16:02] <mnemoc> =)
[16:02] <vinnl> That's the spirit ^.^
[16:03] <mnemoc> what is the name of the replacement of Xnest?
[16:04] <vinnl> !xnest
[16:04] <vinnl> Me neither :P
[16:04] <mnemoc> the thing to get a new X session as a window
[16:04] <mnemoc> inside yours
[16:04] <charlie-tca> I thought it was still xnest
[16:05] <mnemoc> yes? i thought it got replaced by something else in 7.4
[16:06] <vinnl> I have used it sometime ago... And I believe I had to use gdmflexiserver or something later
[16:06] <mnemoc> Xephyr!
[16:07] <mnemoc> !xephyr
[16:07]  * mnemoc kicks the bot
[16:10] <PKodon> Well, I guess the bot can't know everything.
[16:11] <vinnl> It's *bot*, not *God* :P
[16:12] <PKodon> Right!
[16:15] <charlie-tca> mnemoc: you might be right about that. Memory fails when needed most for me
[16:15] <mnemoc> :)
[16:16] <charlie-tca> try !info xephyr
[16:16] <charlie-tca> !info xephyr
[16:16]  * charlie-tca kicks the bot, too
[16:16] <mnemoc> !info xserver-xephyr
[16:17]  * charlie-tca kicks the bot again
[16:17] <mnemoc> :)
[18:00] <S7> Hi, I have xubuntu 8.10, I've tried to increase the number of workspaces to 4 using Xfce menu > Settings > Workspaces Settings, however it doesn't seems to have any effect. suggestions anyone?
[18:42] <wrinkliez> hey guys, how do i install the needed dependencies for xfce 4.6?
[18:42] <wrinkliez> i can't find them in synaptic or anything D:
[18:43] <zoredache_> how are you trying to install xfce 4.6?
[18:44] <wrinkliez> well i wanted to install it via the repo, but then it just said that i would get a partial upgrade, so then i used the .run to see what dependencies i was missing
[18:45] <Maximilian1st> the .run installer from xfce should list you all the dependencies
[18:46] <Maximilian1st> You then have to install the -dev packages of these.
[18:46] <zoredache> what repositor are you trying to use?
[18:46] <wrinkliez> it does, yes, but then i don't know where to install them.  for example, i see gtk-doc.  i can't just do sudo apt-get install gtk-doc
[18:46] <zoredache> there is a devel version of 4.6 for intrepid in  https://launchpad.net/~jerome-guelfucci/+archive/ppa
[18:47] <Maximilian1st> That is exactly the one I was about to tell you to look for.
[18:47] <zoredache> you are supposed to submit bug reports and subscribe charlie-tca to any bugs you find
[18:50] <wrinkliez> i mean, its not a bug about the ppa or anything, i just can't find the dependencies x_X
[18:51] <wrinkliez> they are out there somewhere i just dunno where
[18:52] <Maximilian1st> wrinkliez, Are you using apt-get or synaptic to install from the ppa?
[18:53] <wrinkliez> synaptic
[18:55] <wrinkliez> im slowly finding the dependencies, lol, its annoying that gtk-doc is actually gtk-doc-tools, etc
[18:55] <wrinkliez> but its going
[18:55] <jarnos> wrinkliez: Which ubuntu release are you using?
[18:56] <wrinkliez> 8.10
[18:56] <jarnos> wrinkliez: you should not have to install dependencies manually.
[18:57] <wrinkliez> hmm... curious
[18:57] <wrinkliez> i certainly have to on a fresh install of xubuntu 8.10, with everything sudo apt-get update'd
[18:58] <charlie-tca> Get it here: https://launchpad.net/~jerome-guelfucci/+archive/ppa . File the bugs against it on http://bugzilla.xfce.org/ .
[18:58] <charlie-tca> If you are using a .run you got it direct from Xfce and it doesn't have all the dependencies satisfied
[18:59] <wrinkliez> well the ppa doesn't install things correctly either though, that's the thing.  the .run at least tells me what's up.
[19:00] <zoredache> what was your problem with the ppa?
[19:00] <charlie-tca> the ppa is packaged for Xubuntu
[19:01] <jarnos> wrinkliez: I logged out of xfce session and ran "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" in console (that you get by e.g. Ctrl-Alt-F1 in the login screen.)
[19:01] <wrinkliez> it says it can only do a partial upgrade... and when i do do the partial upgrade, it's a very messy installation
[19:01] <wrinkliez> i tried it once before, this is my second attempt
[19:02] <wrinkliez> let me try that jarnos
[19:05] <jarnos> wrinkliez: you get back by Ctrl-Alt-F7
[19:08] <jarnos> wrinkliez: Maybe you have to do "sudo apt-get update" first.
[19:15] <wrinkliez> ok so, my update manager still says that not all updates can be installed
[19:15] <wrinkliez> and i can either close or do a partial upgrade -_-
[19:17] <wrinkliez> jargos, what was your suggestion again?  i logged out to find that i forgot the command
[19:17] <wrinkliez> jarnos*
[19:19] <jarnos> wrinkliez: Log out, Ctrl-Alt-F1, log in, sudo apt-get update, sudo apt-get dist-upgrade, there may be some questions, exit after it has finished, Ctrl-Alt-F7
[19:20] <wrinkliez> thanks man, im gunna try it :)
[19:20] <jarnos> wrinkliez: you are welcome
[19:22] <charlie-tca> wrinkliez: sometimes you have to run apt-get dist-upgrade a couple of times, restarting in between, too
[19:24] <Pres-Gas> Hey, all
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Hello, Pres-Gas
[19:25] <Pres-Gas> Is there anyone here that is using Gnome-Do with XFCE and Gnome-Do just disappears with nary a whimper?
[19:25] <Pres-Gas> I just get nothing
[19:26] <Pres-Gas> Can't pinpoint when it started
[19:26] <Mood> how do i add another virtual desktop at the bottom right hand corner? i tried adding a panel, but it doesn't appear to be working -- i want to see 3 virtual spaces instead of the default 2
[19:27] <charlie-tca> applications -> Settings -> Settings Manager -> workspaces
[19:27] <Mood> charlie-tca: ahh, ok. i think i got mixed up with the 'panel' nomenclature
[19:28] <charlie-tca> no problem.
[19:28] <basajaun> hi all
[19:28] <Mood> thanks charlie-tca
[19:28] <charlie-tca> You are welcome
[19:28] <Pres-Gas> hey basajaun
[19:28] <basajaun> hi char
[19:28] <brandonban6> hi basajaun
[19:29] <basajaun> hi brandonban6
[19:29] <charlie-tca> Hello,
[19:29] <basajaun> HI Pres-Gas
[19:29] <charlie-tca> Hello, basajaun
[19:29] <basajaun> HI charlie-tca
[19:31] <basajaun> charlie-tca: I still haven found the answer to the mystery of the vanished compositing tab
[19:31] <charlie-tca> That's really a weird one.
[19:31] <basajaun> baffling
[19:32] <basajaun> Itś not even because I use compositing but it was there before I d love to know what happened
[19:32] <charlie-tca> Yeah, I'm hoping you tell us when it gets fixed
[19:33] <basajaun> which I knew what the cullprit script uses to switch off compositing
[19:33] <charlie-tca> I have emailed the author?
[19:33] <charlie-tca> Do they have a contact you could email?
[19:34] <basajaun> the page is no longer maintained so....
[19:34] <charlie-tca> :(
[19:34] <basajaun> next time I will look twice lol
[19:34] <wrinkliez> jarnos, it worked! hoozah
[19:36] <jarnos> wrinkliez: good.
[19:37] <wrinkliez> is there a way to use the xfce-power-manager instead of the gnome one?
[19:41] <charlie-tca> Is it in that PPA?
[19:42] <jarnos> xfce4-power-manager is.
[19:42] <charlie-tca> Then, you should be able to install it from there and remove the gnome-power-manager
[19:43] <wrinkliez> cool
[19:43] <charlie-tca> I don't know if it actually works, though
[19:43] <wrinkliez> the dimming didn't work on zenwalk, :/
[19:43] <wrinkliez> so let's see
[19:43] <charlie-tca> Even on Jaunty, we are using gnome-power-manager
[19:44] <jarnos> wrinkliez: you can disable the gnome one in autostarted applications and put the xfce4 one there.
[19:45] <wrinkliez> hmm, doesn't have an option to dim the screen -_-
[19:45] <jarnos> wrinkliez: I mean the power managers
[19:46] <charlie-tca> Is the dimming control a panel applet?
[19:47] <Maximilian1st> xfpm will include screen dimming later.
[19:47] <charlie-tca> wrinkliez: ^ ^
[19:48] <wrinkliez> what does xfpm stand for?
[19:48] <wrinkliez> if you dont mind
[19:48] <charlie-tca> xfce-power-manager
[19:49] <charlie-tca> thanks, Maximilian1st
[19:49] <bigzed> Does someone know how to install otr for xchat on intrepid?
[19:49] <Maximilian1st> I just read that on the mailing list.
[19:49] <wrinkliez> oh haha
[19:49] <wrinkliez> dang
[19:50] <wrinkliez> ok cool
[19:50] <Maximilian1st> what is otr for xchat?
[19:50] <Maximilian1st> wrinkliez, What was the problem with the PPA you just had?
[19:50] <charlie-tca> apparently not "over the road" ?
[19:50] <bigzed> off-the-record messaging plugin
[19:51] <bigzed> to encrypt messages with xchat
[19:51] <wrinkliez> when i went to upgrade, it told me that i could only do a partial upgrade
[19:52] <charlie-tca> bigzed: install it through synaptic-package-manager.
[19:52] <Maximilian1st> You said something about dependencies not being proposed
[19:52] <bigzed> charlie-tca, which repository and which package?
[19:52] <wrinkliez> that was when I tried the .run, not the .ppa
[19:52] <Maximilian1st> That you had to search for the dependencies yourself.
[19:52] <bigzed> charlie-tca, I don't find any information about this
[19:52] <jeromeg> wrinkliez: and you had any issues with the ppa ?
[19:53] <wrinkliez> and even when all the dependencies were checked in the .run, the ppa still said i could only do a partial upgrade
[19:53] <charlie-tca> universe, package is "xchat-otr"
[19:53] <jeromeg> wrinkliez: you tried sudo apt-get update, sudo apt-get dist-upgrade ?
[19:53] <wrinkliez> yeah it worked after sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[19:54] <bigzed> charlie-tca, I don't find "xchat-otr" with aptitude
[19:54] <wrinkliez> i had to log in with cntrl alt f1
[19:54] <wrinkliez> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[19:54] <bigzed> charlie-tca, Do you have used any special repositories?
[19:54] <wrinkliez> reboot, and then it worked
[19:54] <charlie-tca> bigzed: give me a minute to load 8.10 again
[19:55] <jeromeg> wrinkliez: ok, I really don't know why the update manager fails
[19:56] <wrinkliez> *shrug*
[19:56] <wrinkliez> i shouldve waited for 9.04 XD
[19:57] <jeromeg> wrinkliez: it borke something ?
[19:57] <jeromeg> *broke
[19:57] <wrinkliez> no no it didnt break anythign
[19:57] <jeromeg> oh
[19:57]  * jeromeg breathes :)
[19:57] <wrinkliez> well when i did hte partial upgrade it sucked
[19:57] <jeromeg> yeah, I can imagine that
[19:57] <wrinkliez> but that was an accident :)
[19:57] <jeromeg> you should never accpet partial upgrades
[19:58] <jeromeg> *accept
[19:58] <wrinkliez> i was so used to just pressing okay, that i did it and then wondered why everything was so terrible
[19:58] <wrinkliez> :/
[19:58] <jeromeg> :)
[19:59] <charlie-tca> bigzed: it isn't in Intrepid! Seems it got put into jaunty, but missed intrepid
[19:59] <charlie-tca> maybe someone knows a better answer for intrepid, xchat, and xchat-otr
[20:00] <bigzed> charlie-tca, mhm.. Can I use the package from jaunty or need I to compile it on my own?
[20:00] <charlie-tca> I would try it. I don't know if it will work or not.
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Is that something new?
[20:01] <charlie-tca> It was not in 8.04 either
[20:01] <bigzed> charlie-tca, I've only found this source http://irssi-otr.tuxfamily.org/ but I get a failure when I compile it
[20:02] <zoredache> try downloading the source from http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/xchat-otr
[20:02] <charlie-tca> The packages for xchat are both 2.8.6. I would try the package from jaunty
[20:02] <avuton> Installed: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/current/ and got ubuntu
[20:03] <avuton> Did I miss the secret handshake?
[20:03] <bigzed> ok I try it
[20:03] <charlie-tca> avuton: let me look
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Did you get ubuntu or xubuntu menu screen?
[20:04] <avuton> ubuntu
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Don't know what happened. They are rebuilding the image right now, but I get Xubuntu
[20:05] <charlie-tca> sure you didn't miss the "x" in xubuntu?
[20:05] <avuton> I've got the one md5'd as it starts with '42'
[20:05] <avuton> charlie-tca: is there a different startup in the bootloader or something?
[20:05] <avuton> I've got this one: 420531baf251036a3a96694d116f39db *jaunty-desktop-i386.iso
[20:06] <charlie-tca> The first screen is different
[20:06] <avuton> md5'd it to make sure I got it from there
[20:06] <avuton> I'll boot it up again and see what I see
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Should be the right image.
[20:07] <avuton> hrm, maybe I've got two jaunty images
[20:07] <avuton> :/
[20:07] <avuton> Yeah, that's probably what it is
[20:07] <bigzed> How do I install a standalone .deb package?
[20:07] <charlie-tca> That's possible. both are named the same
[20:07] <avuton> brasero had a jaunty image and I just clicked on it *sigh*
[20:07] <avuton> Thanks
[20:07] <zoredache> bigzed: dpkg -i or gdebi
[20:07] <charlie-tca> bigzed: dpkg -i packagename.deb
[20:07] <bigzed> thanks
[20:12] <bartek_> welcome everybody
[20:12] <bartek_> i have prolem with my mom's xubuntu
[20:12] <charlie-tca> !hi | bartek
[20:12] <bartek_> in pidgin she can not write "a"
[20:13] <bartek_> it looks like there is some definition of keyboard shortcut
[20:13] <bartek_> i do not know how to find it
[20:23] <basajaun> bye all
[20:23] <basajaun> bye charlie-tca
[20:33]  * jarnos tried xfce4-power-manager and it works, even with xscreensaver, when suspend is started from the tray icon. On the other hand, I can't make it suspend, by a dedicated suspend button.
[20:34] <jeromeg> jarnos: file a bug on xfce bugzilla
[20:35]  * charlie-tca thanks jeromeg
[20:35] <jeromeg> charlie-tca: you are welcome ;)
[20:38] <jarnos> jeromeg: I suppose it is already done http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5061
[20:40] <jeromeg> jarnos: then it's useless to complain on an IRC channel
[20:41] <jeromeg> all the more as the dev says this is going to be fixed in the next release
[20:42] <jarnos> jeromeg: In my keyboard the key is XF86Sleep, though.
[20:43] <jeromeg> then add this to the bug report
[20:45] <jeromeg> squisher: tssssss :)
[20:45] <squisher> hehe, just in case
[20:49] <BigSicraite> hello
[20:49] <BigSicraite> i don't know hown to conne"ct to the internet with wifi on xubuntu 8.10
[20:49] <BigSicraite> someone can help ?
[20:50] <zoredache> BigSicraite: about all I know is my computer just worked...  The wifi note might offer you some help
[20:50] <zoredache> !wifi
[21:53] <foofie> hello folks
[21:53] <charlie-tca> !hi | foofie
[21:53] <vinnl> Hey foofie
[21:53] <foofie>  I'm trying to install xubuntu onto a desktop with 2 HD's that is already set up with LVM. Could anyone answer a few questions I have?
[21:54]  * knome acts he just arrived O:)
[21:54] <knome> +as
[21:54] <knome> !ask | foofie
[21:55] <foofie> well, my desktop already has Arch installed on it. My friend set it up for me, and I want to put xubuntu on it.
[21:55] <vinnl> Instead of or in addition to Arch?
[21:56] <foofie> instead of
[21:56] <knome> \o/
[21:56] <vinnl> :P
[21:56] <foofie> i found some good articles about LVM, but none that quite addressed my particular situation
[21:56] <knome> heh
[21:57] <foofie> I'm using xubuntu on my laptop already, BTW. Does ubuntu have it's own pastebin so I can show the output of some commands?
[21:57] <vinnl> !paste
[21:57] <vinnl> :)
[21:58] <foofie> thanks :)
[22:05] <brandonban6> what's the difference between a RAID configuration and LVM? Can you use both? Is one better?
[22:05] <vinnl> !raid
[22:06] <vinnl> !lvm
[22:06] <vinnl> Oh :P
[22:06] <foofie> ok. Here is the output from fdisk -l http://paste.ubuntu.com/129955/
[22:07] <foofie> the xubuntu installer doesn't really make this easy. hehe
[22:07] <brandonban6> thanks vinnl
[22:08] <squisher> brandonban6, the bottom line is you need both
[22:09] <foofie> im concerned about the part that says "NTFS Volume Set"
[22:09] <brandonban6> thanks squisher
[22:12] <foofie> so, can I use the graphical installer to set up my system or do I need some sort of plan B?
[22:13] <vinnl> foofie, if Gparted can do it... Gparted comes with the LiveCD
[22:14] <foofie> vinnl: I have 2 HD's in my desktop and it sees the LVM partitions as "unknown"
[22:15] <vinnl> Well... Partitioning isn't really my thing, so I can only say that Gparted is there :P
[22:15] <foofie> hehe
[22:15] <zoredache> what sees what?
[22:15] <protium> anyone help me out with proxy?
[22:15] <ball> I can't seem to find SeaMonkey in Synaptic
[22:16] <vinnl> !proxy
[22:16] <ball> I would like to replace Firefox and Thunderbird with it
[22:16] <vinnl> Oh :P
[22:16] <vinnl> ball, that's because it's not there
[22:16] <charlie-tca> !info seamonkey
[22:16] <foofie> zoredache: my desktop has 2 HD's and an existing Arch Linux install using LVM. Im trying to replace arch with Xubuntu and am having some troubles
[22:17] <charlie-tca> that SeaMonkey?
[22:17] <vinnl> ball, oops, it's there :P
[22:17] <vinnl> Sorry :P]
[22:17] <ball> yes, that one.
[22:17] <ball> How do I go about installing it?
[22:17] <protium> i wanna knwo how to configure the wireless network im connecting to by applying the specified IP and port
[22:17] <vinnl> ball, you have universe enabled?
[22:17]  * ball shrugs
[22:17] <ball> I don't know what that means.
[22:18] <zoredache> ball: you could do a 'sudo apt-get install seamonkey' from the command line
[22:18] <vinnl> That should work
[22:18] <ball> Thanks, I'll give that a try
[22:18] <ball> Can I also replace Totem with vlc?
[22:19] <vinnl> Sure
[22:19] <zoredache> of course if you have disabled repositories/sections that may not work.  you will need universe enabled
[22:19] <vinnl> ...but if you dono't know what that means you probably haven't messed with it ;-)
[22:19]  * ball still doesn't know what that means.
[22:20] <foofie> ball: in Synaptic, go to settings> repositories
[22:20] <zoredache> foofie: when you say replace, do you mean you don't care about what is on the drives at all?  You could wipe the drives and redo your raid+lvm from scratch
[22:21] <foofie> zoredache: i know roughly what's on there. here's my fdisk -l output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/129955/
[22:23] <zoredache> foofie: and what do you get from a 'sudo vgdisplay' and 'sudo lvdisplay' ?
[22:24] <ball> I think I'll take a nap.  This is all a bit much for me.
[22:24] <ball> Thanks chaps
[22:25] <foofie> zoredache: http://paste.ubuntu.com/129959/
[22:28] <zoredache> at least in the alternate installer you should be able to point at those logical volumes when doing the install   Given the names root is probably /, var is /var, usr is /usr, and home is /home
[22:28] <foofie> i don't mind the way the partitions are set up I suppose (as long as they don't cause any problems)
[22:28] <foofie> so, i should try the alternative CD then?
[22:30] <zoredache> I have only ever used the alternative cd for lvm/raid...  They GUI may support it, but I have no experience with it...
[22:31] <foofie> ok. I'll grab the other ISO tonight and give it another shot tomorrow
[22:31] <zoredache> so my answer would be yes.  Someone else may tell you that the gui is fine though
[22:31] <foofie> oh, so the alternative CD isn't GUI?
[22:31] <foofie> ncurses i take it?
[22:31] <zoredache> yes
[22:31] <foofie> ok
[22:32] <zoredache> text installer like what debian has been using since 3.0
[22:32] <foofie> not familiar with that
[22:32] <vinnl> And Ubuntu used before, what was it, Dapper?
[22:32] <vinnl> :)
[22:32] <foofie> I used Mepis for a long time, then switched to arch for a short time, and now I'm on xubuntu
[22:37] <foofie> thanks for all the help, guys :)
[22:37] <foofie> see you tomorrow (i feel sure)
[23:20] <LetsGo67> Why are there a bunch of warcraftelves3 in my Gmail contact list?
[23:46] <disassembler> i'm having some trouble with vlc, but i'm not too sure what to do about it. i was wondering if someone could shed some light on this.
[23:47] <disassembler> i can play some .mkv files, but other .mkv, .avi and .m4v files aren't playing. i load them then vlc closes shortly after.
[23:49] <zoredache> disassembler: can you start a terminal, and run vlc in the termina then open a file?
[23:50] <zoredache> when/if vlc crashes it may display an error messege in the terminal which you could then use in a google search or bug report
[23:50] <zoredache> !paste
[23:50] <disassembler> ah, okay. i'll try that.
[23:50] <disassembler> i usually launch it from apps > multimedia
[23:51] <zoredache> *nods* when something is acting buggy, running it from a terminal may help you figure out why
[23:51] <dj_bushido> it might be a better idea to log stdout and stderr to file, like "vlc > vlc.txt"
[23:52] <disassembler> i'm a fairly new linux user, but i'm picking up on things pretty quickly. i haven't had too many problems and my overall experience has been better than my experiences with windows in the past.
[23:53]  * dj_bushido definitely agrees that linux > windows
[23:54] <disassembler> dj_bushido: i think a lot of people are afraid to try it just because it's different. aside from gaming there isn't too much on windows, that i'm not able to do on linux as well.
[23:55] <dj_bushido> well, you haven't gotten into multimedia, i see.
[23:56] <dj_bushido> windows has much better sound/video/picture programs.
[23:58] <disassembler> i have gimp, inkscape and a few other programs installed.
[23:59] <dj_bushido> okay, you forgot FL Studio, AVI Synth, etc.
[23:59] <dj_bushido> and photoshop
[23:59] <dj_bushido> All to say that corporate America just hasn't seen the benefits yet...


[17:53] <kgiii> It's not a bug, but I just discovered that the IRC user named 'lubuntu' has not been registered. I'm going to squat on it - that is stay using it in chat, until someone tells me to logoff. At that point, someone more important than I am can register the username. On the old server, the username was registered and it'd automatically move you to 'guest_*****' after like 60 seconds. Ping *this* username when you want me to logoff with
[17:53] <kgiii> the account, freeing it up so that you can register it.
[18:54] <kc2bez> I wonder who registered it before
[18:58] <krytarik> The IRCC, and I've already mentioned this when I noticed it earlier, but got no response on it.
[18:58] <krytarik> Maybe hop on -irc and ask directly.
[19:20] <kgiii> I have no idea. That was long, long before me. Or at least I assume it was.