[00:01] <duanedesign> woot
[00:01] <dvz-> w00t w00t..mtg
[00:02] <duanedesign> well we have given a minute or two for stragglers
[00:02] <duanedesign> #startmeeting
[00:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is duanedesign.
[00:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[00:04] <duanedesign> [TOPIC] Review List Of Prospective Members In Need Of Mentor.
[00:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review List Of Prospective Members In Need Of Mentor.
[00:04] <duanedesign> we have 6 people on the prospective list looking for mentors
[00:05] <duanedesign> i cleaned this out recently... there are still a couple i have not seen in awhile
[00:05] <nhandler> duanedesign: You are skipping your agenda item? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
[00:05] <duanedesign> nhandler: i was going to do it last
[00:05] <nhandler> Ok
[00:05] <duanedesign> or at least  after a few items. In hopes some peps might show up
[00:05] <duanedesign> peeps*
[00:05] <duanedesign> :P
[00:06] <duanedesign> Nu2boonage is one on the list i have seenn around a lot
[00:06] <duanedesign> so we should at least try and make a point to get them a mentor
[00:06] <PabloRubianes> I think I can have on Prospect
[00:07] <PabloRubianes> as mine is having some pesonal issues with life and little time, I can help other
[00:08] <nhandler> Great PabloRubianes.
[00:08] <duanedesign> sounds good.
[00:08] <duanedesign> We also need to clean up that master list
[00:08] <nhandler> PabloRubianes: Can you inform him about this and update the wiki list?
[00:08] <PabloRubianes> I will talk to him, if he wants me as tutor :P
[00:09] <duanedesign> [ACTION] pablorubianes to mentor nUboon2Age
[00:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pablorubianes to mentor nUboon2Age
[00:10] <duanedesign> we should make an attempt to see if those people on the list are still around
[00:10] <duanedesign> if you see any of them around please make note of it so we can determine who is still around and in need of a mentor
[00:11] <duanedesign> doews anyone here have a prospect?
[00:12] <duanedesign> PabloRubianes: you already told us yours was having an issue
[00:12] <duanedesign> i do :)
[00:12] <PabloRubianes> not an issue, more like wife pregnant and little time
[00:13] <duanedesign> malev and km0r3 are doing great
[00:13] <duanedesign> PabloRubianes: that will do it
[00:13] <duanedesign> :)
[00:13] <duanedesign> i would love to try and get km0r3 and malev to be voted on soon
[00:13] <PabloRubianes> they are cool people!
[00:13] <duanedesign> they have shown great commitment over the last several months
[00:14] <duanedesign> shredder12 is another prospect i have. He has also been a prospect for awhile
[00:14] <duanedesign> so if you have a chance get to know  them as I would like to vote on them soon
[00:14] <nhandler> I have been doing some work with phillw for a while now.
[00:15] <duanedesign> phillw does ggreat work in #ubuntu-beginners
[00:15] <nhandler> He has also been doing some good work in the greater community
[00:16] <duanedesign> thats great
[00:16] <duanedesign> hello nUboon2Age
[00:16] <nUboon2Age> phillw: lots of work on promoting lubuntu
[00:16] <nUboon2Age> duanedesign: hey duanedesign
[00:17] <duanedesign> we were just talking about you :) all good of course
[00:17] <nUboon2Age> :)
[00:17] <duanedesign> nUboon2Age: i think PabloRubianes is going to talk to you after the meeting about being your mentor
[00:17] <nUboon2Age> PabloRubianes just came and 'got' me. :)
[00:17] <PabloRubianes> I already did
[00:17] <duanedesign> well great!
[00:17] <duanedesign> ok
[00:18] <duanedesign> [TOPIC] Focus Group wiki pages
[00:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Focus Group wiki pages
[00:19] <duanedesign> i sent an email out last month outlining some focus group goals, Tasks and trying to get the mission of the Focus groups figured out
[00:19] <duanedesign> or at least get the mission in writing so everyone understands what it is we are doing in each group
[00:20] <duanedesign> the Tasks are to be items people can reference when they want to do something for that Focus Ggroup
[00:20] <duanedesign> i get asked a lot I am interested in * FG what cann I do
[00:21] <duanedesign> so we have a list, and that list will also be a roadmap for that person to become better educated about that area of the community
[00:22] <duanedesign> also our Focus Groups need to work harder at getting our members establisheed in the broader community
[00:22] <duanedesign> if you are in the wikiFG you should be working towards 'wiki admin group'
[00:22] <duanedesign> launchpadFG --> Bug Control
[00:23] <duanedesign> Dev --> MOTU
[00:23] <duanedesign> etc, etc
[00:24] <nhandler> Well, working towards those teams is less important than working with them imo
[00:24] <duanedesign> so we have a rough outline in the email i sent out. We need to take that and  put it into our Focus Group wiki pages
[00:24] <duanedesign> nhandler: that is a valid point
[00:24] <duanedesign> if you work with them the other will come as a natural progression
[00:25] <duanedesign> i think the Focus Group pages should follow a more uniform outline
[00:25] <duanedesign> they should all generally want to convey the same information. There willl be variation, but for the most part they should be similar
[00:26] <duanedesign> i think this will help make info easier to find and help insure each FG covers all its bases on their wiki page
[00:27] <nhandler> duanedesign: Do you think it would help if we made a generic template?
[00:27] <duanedesign> nhandler: that is a good idea.
[00:27] <PabloRubianes> they (pages) should have info in order people get into the FGs in the propper way...
[00:27] <nhandler> Might be a good task for the wiki fg
[00:27] <duanedesign> the wiki FG page is pretty good
[00:28] <duanedesign> i added a little 'header' at the top of each page. With info about each team. Email, IRC channel, etc.
[00:29] <duanedesign> someone suggesed having the lead in that group of info...
[00:29] <duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
[00:29] <duanedesign> example^
[00:29] <nUboon2Age> note: i didn't even know about the idea of FG's until Zach explained it to me.  there was little information about it on the wikis.  i like the idea of creating more obvious paths for people to move through to become more involved with the community.
[00:30] <duanedesign> nUboon2Age: that is a good point.
[00:30] <PabloRubianes> one thing is not importan the email, as we only have one ML
[00:30] <PabloRubianes> important*
[00:31] <PabloRubianes> and the Wiki FG wiki is really helpfull
[00:31] <duanedesign> we have this page   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups
[00:31] <duanedesign> maybe incorporate some of that into the main page?
[00:32] <duanedesign> the little table with the 'if you are interested in X see Y'
[00:33] <duanedesign> PabloRubianes: good point about  email
[00:34] <duanedesign> I will email the list and try and get some volunteers to work on the wiki
[00:35] <duanedesign> and talk with swoody about the wiki FG helping
[00:36] <duanedesign> [ACTION] duanedesign email BTML about focus group wiki page reworking
[00:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  duanedesign email BTML about focus group wiki page reworking
[00:36] <duanedesign> [IDEA] make a template for focus group pages to follow
[00:36] <MootBot> IDEA received:  make a template for focus group pages to follow
[00:37] <duanedesign> i dont think we have anyone to vote on?
[00:37] <nUboon2Age> to amend what i said before about having more obvious paths to move through to get more involved w/ community, i agree with nhandler that it seems to me more important to work with a team rather than be a part of one.
[00:37] <PabloRubianes> i don't think so
[00:38] <duanedesign> nUboon2Age: do you think adding the table that is on the Focus Group page to the mainpage would help?
[00:38] <nUboon2Age> since people's participation waxes and wanes, and not everyone is a 'joiner', but everyone can appreciate having some structured paths, and expectation setting.
[00:39] <duanedesign> definetly.
[00:39] <duanedesign> I think getting the 'structured path' a little more organized for each Focus group would help alot
[00:39] <nUboon2Age> duanedesign: adding it to which main page?
[00:40] <nUboon2Age> oh probably you mean the BT main page.
[00:40] <duanedesign> the beginners team main page
[00:40] <duanedesign> :)
[00:40] <duanedesign> there was talk of redoing this page at UDS and the BT possibly helping with that. http://www.ubuntu.com/community
[00:41] <nhandler> duanedesign: cjohnston was working on that iirc
[00:41] <duanedesign> however that currently IMHO is beyond our resources at the moment. Would be nice to work towards having the momentum and manpower to do something like that
[00:41] <duanedesign> nhandler: yes, he was.
[00:42] <duanedesign> ok
[00:42] <duanedesign> any volunteers to do post meeting tasks?
[00:42] <nUboon2Age> duanedesign: looking at the main bt page again for the first time in a bit its definately shaping up.  I like the friendly focus group buttons from the other page, so that might work.  having just seen them for the first time i don't have a definite response. ;)
[00:43]  * nhandler would prefer not to do them again
[00:43] <duanedesign> nUboon2Age: it is definetly good to get a perspective from a new eye
[00:44] <duanedesign> Update Next meeting time on the wiki
[00:44] <duanedesign> Keep BeginnersTeam/TeamReports updated.
[00:44] <nhandler> Don't forget Send meeting minutes to ubuntu-beginners mailing list
[00:44] <duanedesign> put the logs on the wiki
[00:44] <duanedesign> and send to ML
[00:45] <duanedesign> ok anything else?
[00:45] <duanedesign> anyone?
[00:45] <duanedesign> <.<  >.>
[00:45] <nhandler> PabloRubianes or nUboon2Age: Either of you up for it?
[00:46] <duanedesign> i can do one of them
[00:46] <PabloRubianes> yes
[00:47] <nUboon2Age> duanedesign: i didn't catch the whole meeting and would prefer to observe for now. thanks.
[00:47] <duanedesign> ok then
[00:47] <duanedesign> oh one more thing
[00:48] <duanedesign> Diego is starting to organize classes that are Development related
[00:48] <duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Development/Academy
[00:48] <duanedesign> right now there is a C++ class that is taking shape
[00:48] <nhandler> Hmm...I should talk to him with my classroom hat on
[00:48] <duanedesign> should start in about a week
[00:49] <duanedesign> nhandler: would your idea be that it should be in #ubuntu-classroom
[00:49] <duanedesign> and open/advertised to the broader community?
[00:49] <nhandler> duanedesign: Probably. But I'd need to look into the nature of the classes a bit more
[00:49] <duanedesign> ok
[00:50] <duanedesign> if anyone has an idea for a class or wants to participate see the wiki page
[00:50] <duanedesign> or talk to Diego. I have also been trying to get mohi to join in this effort
[00:50] <duanedesign> he has done a good job organizing classes in ##learners
[00:50] <duanedesign> ok i think that is it :)
[00:51] <duanedesign> one more time anyone have anything to add
[00:51] <duanedesign> #endmeeting
[00:51] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:51.
[00:51] <duanedesign> 9 minutes to spare :)
[00:52] <duanedesign> thank you all
[00:52] <nhandler> Thanks for chairing duanedesign
[00:52] <nUboon2Age> duanedesign: :-)
[00:52] <km0r3> where can i get the logs?
[00:52] <PabloRubianes> log done, what else?
[00:53] <PabloRubianes> km0r3: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings/20100810
[00:53] <km0r3> PabloRubianes: thanks :)
[00:55] <PabloRubianes> duanedesign: what else I have to do?
[01:09] <cjohnston> duanedesign: nhandler I have kind-of hit stops of people not following through even with polite harassment..
[01:11] <duanedesign> cjohnston: thanks for the update
[16:00] <mvo> hello
[16:00] <psurbhi> o/
[16:03] <robbiew> hi
[16:08] <mvo> it looks like we are not that many people for todays meeting, is it just the three of us?
[16:18]  * robbiew votes to cancel
[20:00] <highvoltage> good afternoon/evening!
[20:00] <highvoltage> it's edubuntu meeting time, agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
[20:01] <highvoltage> Maverick release schedule is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule
[20:01]  * bencrisford waves hello
[20:02] <highvoltage> I'm kind of tired this afternoon so please bear with me :)
[20:02] <highvoltage> who do we have present? bencrisford, dgroos? anyone else? :)
[20:03] <dgroos> hi-yes, I'm here!
[20:04] <highvoltage> well, some quick notes on technical updates
[20:04] <highvoltage> feature freeze is on Thursday
[20:04] <bencrisford> thursday?! woah, ive been absent for longer than i thought :S
[20:04] <highvoltage> we're going to drop the qimo option, since there's not going to be enough time to do it properly
[20:05] <mhall119> I'm not even sure i'm going to get anything done on Qimo for 10.10, other than maybe some bug fixes
[20:05] <highvoltage> currently the edubuntu-artwork package doesn't run the gconf configuration, so the current edubuntu daily buidls look exactly the same as ubuntu
[20:05] <highvoltage> it should be fine now, I'll test after the meeting and then upload
[20:06] <highvoltage> mhall119: bug fixes are always cool :)
[20:07] <highvoltage> I have the ubiquity plugins included in our livecd package
[20:07] <highvoltage> it doesn't work at all though :)
[20:07] <highvoltage> but at least it's in for feature freeze
[20:07] <dgroos> livecd or livedvd?
[20:07] <highvoltage> so in short, a bunch of stuff isn't working but we're actually looking quite good at this stage despite it
[20:07] <highvoltage> dgroos: it's for the live dvd, but the package is called edubuntu-livecd (or something like that) :)
[20:08] <dgroos> right.
[20:09] <highvoltage> can't think of anything else technical-wise, but I'm sure there is :)
[20:10] <highvoltage> dgroos: let's move on to setup instructions!
[20:10] <dgroos> Sure
[20:10] <dgroos> We often talk about how to support teachers
[20:11] <dgroos> and I think that's also saying how to support 'novice' users of edubuntu/ubuntu in any role in education.
[20:11] <dgroos> Well, last summer a gent helped me out.  He was quite adept at Ubuntu but...
[20:12] <highvoltage> (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook/BasicSetup for otherse who might not have seen it)
[20:12] <dgroos> ...setting up LTSP brought him to a near beginner level again.
[20:12] <dgroos> yes thanks...
[20:12] <dgroos> so what I'm advocating is to have a central page with a connection to the essential setup how-tos
[20:13] <dgroos> and highvoltage just sent a link to the page.
[20:13] <highvoltage> we really needed that for 10.04 already, it's great that you're taking this on, many people will appreciate it
[20:14] <dgroos> One person sent some feedback and based on that I moved some of the "mandatory tasks" to the "optional tasks" list.
[20:14] <dgroos> What do people think?
[20:14] <highvoltage> I guess not even "Install LTSP" is really a mandatory task
[20:14] <highvoltage> some people install edubuntu for a home machine as well
[20:15] <dgroos> As you can see it is in the initial stage.  I've been creating them as I do them but that's slow--need more writers, esp. those in the know.
[20:15] <highvoltage> that mandatory list looks quite typical for an ltsp lab though
[20:15] <highvoltage> dgroos: how about blogging about it and getting some people involved who read planet ubuntu?
[20:16] <highvoltage> dgroos: hmm, just realised you're not on planet ubuntu, do you have a blog?
[20:16] <dgroos> highvoltage: true, one of the givens at the top of the page is that it's for an LTSP Lab--maybe I should add some astrixs if an item is not needed for non LTSP setup--sure, I'll do that.
[20:17] <dgroos> I've got a blog but not with the readership that would make a difference :-) http://groosd.blogspot.com
[20:18] <dgroos> How about if I blog about it, then you make a short blog and refer to it?  Or, you copy it to your blog?
[20:18] <highvoltage> dgroos: yep, we can do so
[20:19] <dgroos> Right, I'll get something to you.  Thanks!
[20:19] <highvoltage> oh! that reminds me of some website news, canonical IS fixed my rights on the web server, so I can upload the new theming, etc for our website!
[20:19] <highvoltage> and we can finally fix a whole bunch of long-standing issues there as well
[20:19] <bencrisford> highvoltage, :D!
[20:19] <highvoltage> dgroos: so we can actually have an edubuntu blog or something that gets agregated to planet ubuntu
[20:20] <highvoltage> dgroos: that might be kind of useful for announcing these kind of things
[20:20] <dgroos> That is a cool idea--a kind of group blog?
[20:21] <highvoltage> dgroos: something like that, yes
[20:22] <dgroos> Interesting--keep sending e-mails to the lists for example with this info--we need some chatter!
[20:23] <highvoltage> I'll send the meeting notes to the list, and then some seperate updates on the website as it progresses
[20:23] <dgroos> OK that's all I wanted to put out there.  Any feedback is always useful.  I'll make a post and send the link out to our list serve as well!
[20:23] <dgroos> highvoltage: which website do you mean?
[20:24] <highvoltage> dgroos: edubuntu website. I meant, post updates about the website to the list as the website progresses
[20:24] <dgroos> ah, right.
[20:25] <highvoltage> dgroos: are you fine with leading up the documentation?
[20:25] <dgroos> As a blind man is describing the surface of the moon, but yes.
[20:26] <highvoltage> dgroos: I'd like to make you the contact person for people who'd like to contribute to documentation, there's often people who want to help but we don't really have nice structure, so we end up losing them
[20:26] <highvoltage> dgroos: in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king ;)
[20:26] <dgroos> ;)
[20:27] <highvoltage> we need to come up with some low-maintenance ideas for using the website to engage with teachers
[20:28] <dgroos> would you link to the site here...
[20:28] <highvoltage> dgroos: well, it's edubuntu.org, but the new stuff isn't up yet, and still in progress :)
[20:29] <dgroos> cool.
[20:29] <highvoltage> I think having stories of schools and users who use edubuntu in any capacity would be nice. a showcase that shows what works and what doesn't work yet with existing users
[20:30] <highvoltage> we've received stories before but they got lost in people's mailboxes and list archives, which is pretty sad really
[20:30] <rockstar> Why don't we just mine the list archives for them?
[20:31] <rockstar> Isn't that what archives are for?
[20:32] <highvoltage> rockstar: yep, that's the plan! I have most of them flagged, it's just that keeping them there and not exposing them more is a bit boring
[20:32] <rockstar> highvoltage, mining in general is boring.  :)
[20:33] <dgroos> To get more utility/followership, I'd suggest that we not focus *just* on using edubuntu in education (though that would be the backbone of it all).
[20:33] <highvoltage> dgroos: indeed. it would be a start, at least
[20:34] <highvoltage> dgroos: I'd also be glad to even include news of what might be viewed as 'our competition'. like k12-ltsp, debian-edu, etc
[20:34] <highvoltage> oh and Qimo :)
[20:34] <dgroos> This is because, edubuntu is just a piece of the puzzle to the teacher, but for example, how does one go about crafting assignments that use computers in a classroom when there is only 4 computers in the room?
[20:35] <dgroos> I'm talking about that practical stuff, practical for the teacher anyway.
[20:36] <highvoltage> dgroos: articles that give tips on that, would be absolutely amazing. if we could get to the point where we had resources like that, I'd consider it a very important milestone for the project
[20:36] <dgroos> cool.
[20:37] <dgroos> I didn't know that.  I wonder if other teachers didn't as well?
[20:37] <highvoltage> dgroos: I guess there's lots of things and improvisations that teachers do with computers that we don't know about, which is also why I'm so anxious to get them to share ideas
[20:38] <highvoltage> dgroos: hopefully we'll soon have some more platform and a bigger voice to get the word out there
[20:39] <dgroos> As I've said, I can't imagine that the knowledge base required to teach effectively is any smaller than the knowledge base required to program effectively.
[20:40] <dgroos> making space on the website for those different knowledge domains would be useful...
[20:40] <highvoltage> I think with 10.10 edubuntu will probably be where I wanted it to be 3 years ago already. it is getting a lot easier to use and install, and there's some great admin tools emerging
[20:40] <highvoltage> ah, also on the technical front, I forgot to mention that nanny is now uploaded in the archive, I uploaded it last friday and we'll be able to include it in Edubuntu for maverick
[20:40] <dgroos> I'm very happy with 10.04!  Can't wait to see about 10.10.
[20:41] <dgroos> Good for home users--I'll need it as my son gets a bit older :)
[20:42] <highvoltage> if we can get edubuntu to the point where it's a great platform to create lessons and give classes, along with good documentation and examples of how to do that by other teachers, then I think it could help a really huge amount of people out there
[20:42] <highvoltage> anyway, sorry if I babble too much about this, I just think it's really important
[20:43] <dgroos> Yes, and what people are doing is laying important groundwork for this.  THANKS!
[20:43] <dgroos> babbling isn't done just by brooks, you know :)
[20:43] <highvoltage> brooks?
[20:45] <dgroos> hmmm... babbling brooks, hmmm... trying to explain it shows me I'm being a bit too stream-of-conscious...
[20:45] <highvoltage> heh, I looked on the urban dictionary but couldn't see anything relevant :)
[20:46] <highvoltage> I need to leave in a minute or so, anything else we need to cover?
[20:47] <bencrisford> highvoltage, i was going to mention marketing materials, but I guess it isnt urgent
[20:48] <dgroos> i'll expound further in #edubuntu :)
[20:49] <highvoltage> bencrisford: ok, make noise about it in the channel and lists so long, let's discuss it in the meantime and also in next week's meeting!
[20:49] <highvoltage> I'll fix our artwork package a bit later today at least
[20:49] <bencrisford> ill email the list in a min :)
[20:50] <highvoltage> but I guess this is the end of our meeting, next one is same time next week!
[20:50] <highvoltage> *GONG*


[09:37] <OdyX> tkamppeter_: Hi. Can you enlighten us on Debian's #698141 ? As I understand it, 2) is the answer, right ?
[09:58] <tkamppeter> OdyX, 1, 2, 4 is corect, 3 is wrong.
[09:59] <OdyX> tkamppeter: great, thanks
[10:00] <tkamppeter> OdyX, 1 needs BrowseLocalProtocols cups, 2 needs BrowseRemoteProtocols cups, 4 needs BrowseRemoteProtocols dnssd and avahi-daemon.
[10:02] <OdyX> tkamppeter: ah, fantastic; will add that to the package description then.
[10:03] <OdyX> tkamppeter: does it really work on Cups < 1.6 ?
[10:23] <tkamppeter> OdyX, I did not test, but the requests it sends to CUPS are only creating and removing queues. This should not have changed between CUPS 1.5 and 1.6. So it should work with old CUPS when appropriate legacy CUPS broadcasting ot browsing is activated as I described above.
[10:25] <OdyX> tkamppeter: besides there's no real interest in doing that, no? (unless we'd provide backports)
[11:02] <tkamppeter> OdyX, yes, there is really no necessity of using it with 1.5 as you say, as all distros with 1.6 contain it.
[11:03] <tkamppeter> OdyX, so in the bug 4) principally works, but in this situation one would use cups-browsed on the remote server instead.
[15:33] <infinity> Does anyone else find GCC's '-mcmodel=large' option hilarious?  Or am I just suffering lack of sleep?
[15:40] <penguin42> infinity: You need some sleep
[19:08] <mzaza> Hello, I just finished learning C++ and I was looking to contribute to a C++ project to master the language and extend my skills. Any recommendation for small scale project someone with almost no experience could start working on?
[19:11] <mzaza> Is that the right place to ask such question?
[19:15] <penguin42> it's a bit general here - but there are lots of C++ based projects; Qt is heavily C++
[19:16] <JanC> often the best way to get started in a project is to investigate & fix some bugs in the bug tracker of the project
[19:16] <infinity> `reverse-depends libstdc++6` is a lovely list of C++ projects.
[19:20] <jbicha> could someone mark https://code.launchpad.net/~darkxst/ubuntu/raring/gnome-contacts/lp1033262/+merge/167876 as merged
[19:21] <stgraber> done
[19:21] <infinity> Wouldn't the importer have caught that on its own anyway?
[19:22] <infinity> Well, once it was accepted, I guess.
[19:22] <stgraber> not sure, in my experience the only reliable way to get one of those closed is to have them properly merged in the UDD branch or have a TB member manually mark them as such.
[19:22] <stgraber> I'm not sure how the importer would notice that this specific branch has been merged, short of trying to merge every pending branch and see if the result matches the current state of the world
[19:23] <infinity> stgraber: It seems to do an okayish job if you upload something pretty close to identical and then it's imported into the branch.
[19:23] <jbicha> what would I need to do if I wanted to properly merge it?
[19:23] <infinity> (But it's certainly not foolproof)
[19:23] <infinity> jbicha: Merge to the branch, then upload from that, though I never do that either.
[19:23] <jbicha> I tweaked the description and the version number so I don't know if it would catch that they're the same
[19:23] <stgraber> jbicha: bzr merge into the branch, commit and push. That should mark the branch as merged (or we have some other bug on LP)
[19:24] <infinity> Frankly, it's fundamentally broken if you can upload to something, but not commit or mangle MPs.
[19:24] <jbicha> or I could ask darkxst to kill it I guess
[19:24] <stgraber> anyway, pinging on IRC to have a TB member change the status is fine too, most people do that and it's the advantage of being effective immediately (so the entry disappears on the sponsoring list)
[19:25] <stgraber> infinity: yes, the ACL or lack thereof has been annoying for a long time, mangling those MPs is pretty much restricted to the TB at the moment
[19:26] <stgraber> (well, ~ubuntu-branches which is TB + James Westby + the package importer role account)
[19:26] <stgraber> it'd make a lot more sense to have those use the upload ACLs instead, but I guess that needs quite a few changes to LP and it's never been high priority
[19:26] <infinity> Any reason to not add, at least, core-dev to that group?
[19:27] <infinity> (But yes, they should have finer-grained upload ACL mappings, but that's Real Work)
[19:27] <infinity> core-dev seems sane, though.  They can upload to everything in Ubuntu, so why not also be able to mangle MPs for ubuntu branches?
[19:28] <infinity> And that's as simple as adding them to the ubuntu branches group.
[19:28] <stgraber> I'd be fine with adding coredev and think that'd make sense, though it may be best to ask one of the folks who setup that stuff to confirm that doesn't give some very weird rights as well
[19:28] <jbicha> stgraber: thanks
[19:29] <infinity> wgrant: Do you know, off-hand, if ~ubuntu-branches confers any weird/fancy privs that would be inappropriate to give to ~ubuntu-core-dev?
[19:29] <infinity> james_w: ^
[19:31] <infinity> jbicha: Accepted.
[19:31] <jbicha> infinity: ooh that was fast :)
[19:31] <stgraber> infinity: do you know if someone is supposed to be able to commit to the release pocket branch of a released series? I thought that wasn't possible but apparently I can, so that may be a difference between ~ubuntu-branches members vs non-members
[19:32] <infinity> stgraber: I suspect anyone *can*, there's just no point.
[19:33] <infinity> stgraber: And there's no real harm in letting people do so either, it's not like we build from bzr or anything, so it would just be a lame revision.
[19:33] <Laney> Yeah, it denies the push for me
[19:33] <infinity> Curious.
[19:33] <stgraber> ok, so that's indeed a difference then
[19:34] <infinity> A difference that's probably meaningless, as above.
[19:34] <Laney> Maybe. Hopefully.
[19:34] <infinity> Cause, really, who cares if someone pushes to a dead branch?
[19:34] <stgraber> indeed
[19:35] <infinity> Now, if we ever want to move to a build-from-VCS model, we need to get sane ACLs on all of this, but we're laughably nowhere near such a utopia.
[19:35] <stgraber> outside of that, ~ubuntu-branches members can obviously do stupid things like removing the branches, or changing which is the master branch, both tend to confuse the importer a fair bit, but are sometimes necessary and difficult enough to do (requires API) that it's unlikely to happen by accident
[19:35] <infinity> (Though, actually, to be fair, I could write the VCS->dpkg-souce->upload bot over a weekend... I just kinda don't want to force such a shift with things in such a shambles on that side of the world, while source uploads Just Work)
[19:36] <Laney> Can they do non-stupid things like fixing the importer?
[19:36] <mzaza> penguin42: What exactly could I start working on in Qt, because Qt is big project and bigger than my level I think...
[19:36] <Laney> 'cause that would be good
[19:36] <stgraber> so yeah, until wgrant or james_w can think of something else, it should be safe to add coredev to the team
[19:36] <infinity> Laney: If they can remove branches and change the master, then they could also fix a stuck/confused importer, since I think that's the general fix...
[19:36] <stgraber> Laney: kinda, we can run the scripts on our own machines, do the import and push the new one on top of the other. I've been doing that for a few stuck branches.
[19:36] <penguin42> mzaza: I don't know the Qt guys well, but try looking at their own mailing list - they'll have bugs and features they want to add
[19:37] <stgraber> Laney: though the real way of fixing the importer needs ssh access to a box in the DC and mangling its database to unblacklist the branch.
[19:37] <Laney> Yeah, wouldn't know anything about what's good to do there
[19:37] <penguin42> mzaza: Similarly KDE, and I think Unity
[19:37] <Laney> but "try this thing, it might work but won't make it worse" could be useful in the right hands
[19:37] <infinity> stgraber: I guess if we ever decided to swap to build-from-VCS, that would fix all the importer bugs in one go.
[19:37] <mzaza> penguin42: Yes, It's just do you think I can get enrolled in such projects. When I looked at the KDE's source code I felt lost :D
[19:38] <stgraber> infinity: sure, it'd guarantee we'd be in sync, you just wouldn't be able to "upload" instead of having an out-of-sync branch post-upload :)
[19:38] <infinity> stgraber: Well, there would be no "uploading", just pushing a tag.
[19:38] <infinity> Or a pair of tags, in the case of a new upstream.
[19:39] <stgraber> infinity: sure, though what usually confuses the importer are some of the weird merges done in the bzr branch, those would likely make the source package building part of the process explode in a similar way
[19:39] <penguin42> mzaza: Pick a project that you use, then go and ask at that project - they often have starter projects; e.g. small bugs and things
[19:39] <stgraber> infinity: so just moving the problem, though we'd indeed safe ourselves from all the problems related to .dsc imports for Ubuntu (we'd still need that for Debian)
[19:40] <infinity> stgraber: The source package part is just "build orig from upstream tag" then "build source package from Ubuntu tag".  That can't go "wrong" unless what you pushed is unbuildable.  In which case, you push a new version.
[19:40] <jbicha> I wouldn't mind so much if the UDD branches were debian/ only
[19:40] <infinity> stgraber: For Debian sync --force, if people aren't attached to obsolete Ubuntu history, you just wipe the packaging branch and import a fresh copy with no history.
[19:41] <infinity> jbicha: The way I did this in git with maemo, the packaging branches were essentiall just debian, in that they were a topic branch on top of an upstream import.
[19:41] <infinity> jbicha: So, you had the full source there, but only the debian bits were represented in the branch, in reality.
[19:42] <infinity> Import a new upstream, tag foo_1.2.3, switch to packaging branch, fix, fix, test, tag foo_1.2.3-1, push, rejoice.
[19:42] <jbicha> I meant like the ~ubuntu-desktop branches with bzr-builddeb merge mode or something similar
[19:43] <infinity> jbicha: But, in a 'build-from-VCS' world, you need to get your orig from somewhere, it can't just magically appear.
[19:43] <infinity> jbicha: So, you need that upstream branch.
[19:43] <infinity> And, if we're being anal about it, we also need pristine-tar.
[19:43] <jbicha> I don't trust 'bzr mu' to do the right things in a full-source branch as I've had problems before
[19:44] <stgraber> infinity: hmm, yeah, I guess building the source package should always work unless you messed the branch to the point of having it unreadable (but then you should just re-create it). The usual problems are imports and merges so we'd just hit those points for the Debian UDD branches (on the importer), during merges from Debian (on the developer's machine) and for syncs (unless we wipe the history).
[19:44] <infinity> stgraber: To my mind, wiping history on syncs would be an acceptable compromise, I suspect people who hate losing history EVAR would disagree.
[19:45] <infinity> stgraber: But we already lose history on syncs in the source-package-centric world.  We drop all changelog deltas, etc.  So, it's analogous.
[19:45] <infinity> But you could also just do a shallow force overwrite on syncs.
[19:46] <stgraber> well, I suppose some will argue that anything we can pull from the archive or LP (through pull-lp-source) should also be available as tag in the branch, I don't really care much myself though
[19:46] <infinity> Preserve all history up until then, wipe the top revision clean, replace with Debian's contents, have an icky huge diff that might be nonsensical.
[19:47] <infinity> The key being that if the top revision matches bit-for-bit with your sync, it doesn't really matter if you preserved history or not.
[19:47] <infinity> You just can't be silly and try to MERGE a sync in.
[19:47] <infinity> (ie: a sync -f would assume you want the tip to match Debian, even if you had staged commits that post-date the last tag)
[19:48] <infinity> I hate when I start talking about this and think I should start implementing it.  Cause I pretty much refuse to implement it on top of bzr, and I don't want to have the cost-analysis-of-switching-to-git argument this week.
[19:50] <stgraber> ;)
[19:50] <infinity> Ultimately, I think build-from-VCS (but publish source packages to the archive, on CDs, and to buildds) is the right answer.  And not actually a *ton* of work.  It's the bzr-vs-git argument that's the soul-draining bit.
[19:53] <infinity> And, coming from someone who likes working with source packages, and never uses UDD, that's saying something. :P
[19:54] <stgraber> well, that's because you currently can't trust UDD, doing things with UDD, then producing a debdiff with what's in the archive because you don't trust it isn't terribly efficient :)
[19:55] <infinity> stgraber: To be honest, I still used that workflow even in a build-from-VCS that I trusted.
[19:55] <infinity> stgraber: I want to know what the bot's going to do to my tag, so I'd still dpkg-buildpakage and debdiff before I pushed the tag.
[19:55] <infinity> (Which also saves on angry emails when the build fails)
[19:56] <infinity> But it's nice when the lack of trust is only in myself, and not also in my tools.
[19:56] <stgraber> right, build-from-VCS is no excuse to stop test building locally so yeah, doing an extra debdiff on top of that isn't really time consuming
[20:00] <infinity> bzr doesn't do signed tags, does it?
[20:01] <infinity> That's another argument for git in this sort of workflow, cause the tag signature is what you check on "upload".
[20:03] <stgraber> infinity: that sounds right, so in the bzr world we'd have to required a signed commit containing some indication that we want a build
[20:08] <infinity> Well, my neighbor just invited me over for beer, I'm saved from having to think about this any more this afternoon.
[20:09] <stgraber> yeah, doesn't sound like the kind of thing you should be spending your Sunday afternoon thinking about. Have fun!
[20:11] <infinity> Laney: What have you got against girraffes anyway?
[20:28] <Laney> They're so tall. It's creepy.
[22:35] <jbicha> "We collect hundreds of thousands of error reports daily from millions of machines." really? https://errors.ubuntu.com/


[04:03] <blahdeblah> lists.launchpad.net going down shortly for an upgrade
[05:40] <Unit193> blahdeblah: So should we ask if the updates are anything interesting.
[05:48] <blahdeblah> Unit193: I'm afraid it's rather dull; just getting the host infrastructure up to xenial
[05:49] <Unit193> That's interesting enough, nice to get to the current LTS. :)
[18:07] <Unit193> platform.artful/standard: foundations-aa-migrating-to-neplan → foundations-aa-migrating-to-netplan
[19:49] <dupondje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zlib/+bug/1692870 => any chance this can get accepted once? Cause I think it breaks more things than listed even
[19:58] <infinity> dupondje: Could use a slightly more pleasant test case. :/
[19:58] <infinity> dupondje: But if UniFi is the only way you know to reproduce it, better reproduction steps would be lovely.
[19:59] <infinity> (install this thing from that place, go to local URL X, check logfile Y)
[20:00] <infinity> dupondje: You also don't explain why, in your debdiff, you dropped a seemingly unrelated patch.
[20:09] <fossfreedom> hi all.  Is there anyway to rollback/remove the broken meson package in artful proposed to allow budgie-desktop to build please?
[20:12] <jbicha> fossfreedom: has that issue been reported to meson yet?
[20:13] <dupondje> infinity: i'll check to adapt the reproduction steps. Its installing the unifi package, and then go to the guest portal page. But could be a bit more descriptive indeed.
[20:13] <dupondje> the patch is just an upstream patch: https://github.com/madler/zlib/commit/f9694097dd69354b03cb8af959094c7f260db0a1
[20:14] <fossfreedom> yep - its a known issue - https://github.com/mesonbuild/meson/issues/1939 - I reported upstream to budgie-desktop and its their recommendation to rollback.  Other distro's similarly are having difficulty building vala based meson stuff as well.
[20:15] <dupondje> i'll test tomorrow if I can reproduce it with plain tomcat. Would be easier to test :)
[20:16] <jbicha> fossfreedom: honestly, we're not likely to just rollback, but I see the issue you linked has a proposed commit attached
[20:16] <jbicha> fossfreedom: could you try rebuilding budgie with a meson built with that commit?
[20:17] <fossfreedom> sure
[20:17] <jbicha> roll forward instead of roll back :)
[20:27] <nacc> jbicha: fyi, your fix for deja-dup also fixes a bug (LP: #1668915)
[21:03] <infinity> dupondje: You also dropped a patch from series.
[21:25] <fossfreedom> jbicha: tried to with those patches.  Got further but failed.  There are a series of regressions marked on that version upstream - not all have fixes - certainly not merged.  That version of meson is well and truly broken
[21:28] <jbicha> fossfreedom: please open an Ubuntu bug against meson and add the tag "block-proposed"
[21:30] <jbicha> I apologize for the inconvenience but I don't think we're likely to just remove the package from proposed at this point in Ubuntu's dev cycle
[21:30] <jbicha> by the way, Debian unstable has the same version of meson (the Debian maintainer is the upstream maintainer)
[21:41] <fossfreedom> aye. no worries. raised the bug report anyway - https://github.com/mesonbuild/meson/issues/1939
[21:42] <fossfreedom> wrong copy paste
[21:43] <fossfreedom> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/meson/+bug/1698463
[21:57] <jbicha> thanks


[07:00]  * ArneGoetje waves
[07:00] <asac> hi all
[07:00] <doko_> good morning
[07:01] <evand> hi
[07:01] <TheMuso> Greetings.
[07:01] <cjwatson> good morning all
[07:01] <bryce> heya all
[07:02] <cjwatson> I hope everyone had a decent trip back from Prague
[07:02] <TheMuso> Yes, as well as one can have.
[07:03] <ArneGoetje> I can't complain either
[07:03] <cjwatson> Chris and Steve are on holiday
[07:03]  * ogra coughs and sniffs
[07:05] <bryce> Prague Plague, ogra?
[07:05] <ogra> bryce, mdz plague i'd say
[07:05] <bryce> ogra: kees too
[07:05] <ogra> seems seb and daniel have it too
[07:05] <cjwatson> so, first thing is UDS proceedings
[07:05] <dholbach> and Jorge and Jono :)
[07:05] <ogra> heh
[07:06] <cjwatson> I sent out a mail about the reports I dumped into the wiki, and getting those transformed into specs
[07:06] <cjwatson> does anyone have questions about the process there?
[07:06] <bryce> cjwatson: I've dumped my notes in as well
[07:06] <TheMuso> No, I only need to try and find the dmraid document that was in gobby.
[07:06] <TheMuso> And I have the document for the accessibility review of ubuntu specific desktop tools.
[07:06] <cjwatson> IntrepidReleaseSchedule gives 5 June as the deadline for specs to be finalised
[07:06] <bryce> gobby appears to have been cleared out or something; I couldn't find my xorg ones there
[07:06] <TheMuso> SO will get to that in the next few days.
[07:07]  * cjwatson guesses the gobby server crashed and ate its state again
[07:08] <bryce> gobby gobble
[07:08] <cjwatson> apparently the state is very very tasty
[07:08] <liw> is it time to spend some effort on gobby reliability? at least having the client autosave, perhaps?
[07:08] <cjwatson> I was just thinking that, though autosave has its own problems
[07:09] <TheMuso> afaik Kees took the dmraid notes so he should probably have a copy somewhere.
[07:09] <liw> preferably server side reliablity, of course
[07:09] <cjwatson> with the lack of undo, autosave guarantees that nobody has a spare copy if somebody highlights the whole document and starts typing
[07:09] <cjwatson> autosave; bzr commit
[07:09] <bryce> bzr backing would rock
[07:10] <cjwatson> I wonder if tweaking the editor to prevent overtyping a selection would be a good idea
[07:10] <liw> undo would be more awesome
[07:10] <liw> gobby needs a lot of tender loving care, it seems
[07:11] <cjwatson> is that the sound of a volunteer? ;-)
[07:11] <liw> kyllä
[07:11] <liw> always answer in Finnish to questions about being a volunteer... :)
[07:12] <liw> (translation for those who are not slangasek: yes, I am willing to volunteer)
[07:12] <cjwatson> I found http://www.kylla.com/ and my brain melted
[07:12] <asac_> sorry reconnected
[07:13] <asac_> can someone paste the session so far?
[07:13] <liw> asac, sure, just a moment
[07:13] <asac_> thx
[07:13] <liw> asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/15259/
[07:14] <cjwatson> I've started trying to put together lists of what people are doing at https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Platform/8.10
[07:14] <cjwatson> this is horribly incomplete as yet, and even blank for some people
[07:14] <liw> (and only accessible to Canonical people)
[07:15] <cjwatson> indeed, it should end up being just an internal-organisation document full of links to the outside world
[07:15] <cjwatson> I just find it more convenient to plan stuff there than in Launchpad
[07:16] <liw> cjwatson, edits to that page should be discussed with you beforehand, I assume
[07:17] <cjwatson> if they're trivial, go ahead, otherwise please ask
[07:17] <cjwatson> the archive reorg is the biggest unowned item there
[07:18] <cjwatson> however, for a change, I'm not looking for volunteers for that right now - to start with it isn't really an implementation project on our side
[07:18] <cjwatson> we much more need to get it specced out and agreed, so that the right changes can be made in Launchpad
[07:19] <cjwatson> and probably prototyped
[07:20] <ArneGoetje> these are only tasks that are directly aimed at 8.10, I assume?
[07:20] <cjwatson> I will work on that, but it isn't urgent that it lands in this cycle, as long as we get started; in fact it's unlikely to land in this cycle because all the Launchpad people-time has already been assigned
[07:20] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: loosely, yes
[07:20] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: why?
[07:20] <ArneGoetje> so, I don't need to add more long-term stuff to it?
[07:21] <cjwatson> no; I don't have a good place for that, maybe just on your personal wiki page if you want somewhere to aggregate it?
[07:21] <ArneGoetje> ok
[07:21] <cjwatson> or you could create a page linked off DistroTeam/Platform for longer-term ideas
[07:22] <cjwatson> (actually, any page named DistroTeam/Platform/blah will get magically autolinked)
[07:22] <ArneGoetje> well, the point is that I also need to allocate time for those, besides the tasks for 8.10... not that the long-term ones get pushed back... ;)
[07:23] <cjwatson> ah, right
[07:23] <cjwatson> send me mail with the details and I'll think about it and get it folded in
[07:25] <ArneGoetje> ok. I was just thinking if it would be more useful to have a general overview page what people are working on, with tasks marked as 8.10, long-term or general duties, for example...
[07:25] <asac> cjwatson: the tasks "upstream bugs/crashers" + "automated testing" belong more to the QA team i guess. should i add them to my list on that platform page anyway?
[07:25] <cjwatson> asac: I explicitly hadn't included them for you there because I wanted to talk with you first about that :-)
[07:26] <cjwatson> I'll check up with Henrik about that
[07:26] <asac> ok
[07:26] <cjwatson> likewise, compcache is a kernel team item
[07:26] <ogra> not completely
[07:26] <cjwatson> well, mostly
[07:26] <ogra> it needs udev implementation i volunteered to do
[07:27] <asac> cjwatson: i also have "large scale extensino maintenance using bzr", which fits nicely into "distributed development" i guess.
[07:27] <ogra> kernel team adds the module to l-u-m, but it needs userspace setup
[07:28] <cjwatson> asac: new heavy-duty use of bzr in the distro should definitely liaise with james_w to make sure it won't have to be redone in six months' time
[07:28] <cjwatson> ogra: point me to a spec once there is one
[07:28] <TheMuso> cjwatson: What do you mean by heavy duty?
[07:28] <ogra> cjwatson, will do
[07:29] <cjwatson> TheMuso: rolling out new systems for large groups of packages, as opposed to just sticking a stray package here and there in bzr
[07:29] <cjwatson> (which is obviously to be encouraged)
[07:29] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Right.
[07:29] <asac> cjwatson: needs coordination with james_w, right.
[07:30] <cjwatson> it's unlikely to cause a problem, but James may want to know what you're doing in order to take account of it
[07:30] <cjwatson> though I see from James' activity report that you've already been talking
[07:31] <asac> cjwatson: we are already doing that and had discussions on that topic at UDS
[07:31] <asac> yep
[07:33] <cjwatson> so, meeting times
[07:33] <cjwatson> we last rotated these in February
[07:34] <ArneGoetje> any reason to change? :)
[07:34] <cjwatson> from 1500 UTC to 0600 UTC
[07:34] <asac> ArneGoetje: yes, i finally got used to this time - and that scares me.
[07:34] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: I did promise at the time to rotate every few months, to spread out the pain
[07:34] <ArneGoetje> asac: LOL
[07:35] <cjwatson> Wednesday still seems fairly convenient
[07:35] <asac> so simply rotate another -8 hours? e.g. 22h UTC ?
[07:36] <liw> is there a time that will allow all of us to be awake at our normal times, rather than two-three hours after normal bedtime?
[07:36] <cjwatson> 2200 UTC == 0600 Arne's time, if I'm doing my sums correctly
[07:36] <bryce> liw, no there isn't
[07:36] <cjwatson> liw: I don't think so :-(
[07:37] <liw> alas
[07:37] <cjwatson> liw: we cover western and eastern US, Europe, Taiwan, Australia
[07:37] <liw> in that case, spread the pain
[07:37] <liw> I'd be happy to move to Australia or Canada, if that helps ;-)
[07:37] <cjwatson> it's just about pessimal for arranging meetings
[07:38] <TheMuso> Since I've had it good for the last few months, I'm willing to do whatever is decided upon.
[07:38] <ArneGoetje> +1
[07:38] <cjwatson> Evan and Chris have probably had it worst
[07:38] <bryce> I like asac's proposal - easy to remember and apply
[07:39] <ogra> ++
[07:39] <cjwatson> I think asac's is probably fine though possibly with an hour or so's tweak either way; we settled on 0600 because it was a bit less unpleasant for eastern US
[07:40] <cjwatson> we could just reshuffle the teams so that the desktop team manager gets to deal with more than just Europe and western US for a change ;-)
[07:40] <cjwatson> "just"
[07:41] <liw> do I understand correctly: asac's suggestion would be to have the meeting at Tuesday 22:00 UTC?
[07:41] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: on what you said above: I think you're probably right, but I'll have to think on how to do it so as to avoid too much duplication and hence stuff getting out of date
[07:42] <asac> liw: my idea was Wed 2200 UTC
[07:42] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: got it
[07:42] <liw> asac, ack
[07:42] <liw> I'm ok with that
[07:43] <cjwatson> I'll stare at a timezone map for a bit and send mail, then
[07:43] <cjwatson> any other business?
[07:43] <TheMuso> Yes, minutes.
[07:43] <doko> Wed 22:00 soudns fine
[07:43] <cjwatson> oh yes, that rather ought to rotate too
[07:43] <TheMuso> I can do this meeting's minutes, but I would like to share the work around for those.
[07:43] <cjwatson> volunteers?
[07:43] <liw> whoever joins the meeting last gets to do the minutes? :)
[07:44] <bryce> earlier I volunteered to help out.  I might be out on jury duty part of June though (or maybe not)
[07:44] <liw> I'd be happy with a setup where the secretary gets chosen randomly at the beginning of each meeting
[07:45] <TheMuso> Well I'd rather not do them if the meeting ends up at a time which requires me to get up/make myself available for it.
[07:45] <TheMuso> I don't mind doing such a meeting time, but I'd probably rather not have to worry about minutes for that meeting.
[07:46] <cjwatson> one does need to be awake; seems best to have it selected from those people for whom it's normal working hours
[07:46] <bryce> TheMuso: yeah that sounds fair
[07:46] <liw> yeah, that sounds good
[07:46] <cjwatson> which means bryce is probably a good candidate for this rotation anyway, modulo jury duty
[07:46] <bryce> yup
[07:46] <cjwatson> done
[07:47] <cjwatson> any other other business?
[07:48] <liw> my keyboard battery is about to die...
[07:48] <liw> so nothing from me
[07:48] <asac> :)
[07:48] <ArneGoetje> nothing from me either
[07:49]  * ogra will go back to bed and stay there for most of the day to cure that flu ting
[07:49] <TheMuso> Only that it was great to see everybody face to face once again. :)
[07:49] <asac> ack++
[07:49] <cjwatson> liw: punched cards are the way forward
[07:49] <ogra> yeah
[07:49] <liw> greatness.lock(); greatness.set_value(greatness.get_value() + 1); greatness.unlock()
[07:50] <cjwatson> indeed so
[07:50] <cjwatson> adjourned, then
[07:50] <evand> thanks
[07:50] <bryce> thanks
[07:50] <asac> thanks
[07:50] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[07:50] <TheMuso> Thanks.
[07:50] <liw> kiitos
[07:50] <ogra> thanks
[17:59] <lukehasnoname> Anyone?
[18:13] <RoAkSoAx> @schedule lima
[18:14] <lukehasnoname> @schedule houston
[18:14] <lukehasnoname> haha
[18:15] <lukehasnoname> @schedule central
[18:15] <lukehasnoname> nice.
[18:24] <Syntux> @schedule
[18:26] <zul> @schedule montreal
[18:54] <leoquant> @schedule amsterdam
[18:58] <fdd> @schedule
[18:58] <fdd> @schedule bucharest
[19:53]  * lukehasnoname says hi
[19:58] <pedro_> ahoj!
[19:58]  * ogasawara_ waves
[19:59]  * cgregan waves back
[20:00] <heno> hey!
[20:00] <davmor2> Good evening everybody :)
[20:00]  * stgraber waves
[20:01] <bdmurray> hi
[20:02]  * heno tries the bot
[20:02] <heno> #startmeeting
[20:02] <mgunes> hi all
[20:02] <davmor2> no bot :(
[20:02] <sbeattie> hey
[20:03] <heno> hope everyone who was at UDS made it home ok
[20:03] <Seeker`> broken bot - sorry, I've got exams at the moment, i'll fix it when they are over
[20:03] <mgunes> I'm fine, except the UbuFlu :)
[20:03] <heno> Seeker`: thanks, no worries
[20:03] <pedro_> I'm just with a bit of Ubuflu ;-)
[20:03] <bdmurray> +1
[20:04] <cgregan> I must be lucky...no Flubuntu here
[20:04] <stgraber> Ubuflu is over for me :) but I was only in Prague for a few days
[20:04]  * heno is UbuFluFree :)
[20:04] <cgregan> I even shared a plane with MattZ
[20:04] <davmor2> I'm not :D
[20:04]  * pedro_ spreading lysol
[20:04] <lukehasnoname> What meeting is starting?
[20:04] <stgraber> lukehasnoname: QA team
[20:04] <lukehasnoname> ooo!
[20:04] <sbeattie> I'm finally recovering from the Prague Plague...
[20:04] <heno> cgregan: heh, you finally met Matt on the plane home? :)
[20:05] <lukehasnoname> This isn't on the calender
[20:05] <cgregan> heno: yes...kept my distance though ;-0
[20:05] <lukehasnoname> or is it
[20:05] <mgunes> lukehasnoname, it's secret, don't tell anyone :p
[20:05] <lukehasnoname> @schedule
[20:06] <heno> jcastro: you know your way around the Fridge right? Could you look at getting the QA team meeting added on a rolling basis?
[20:06] <lukehasnoname> So the first step to being an "Ubuntero" / contributor is universe/multiverse package management?
[20:07] <heno> I seem to remember the calendar needed hand-cranking each month or something
[20:07] <jcastro> heno: I'll look into it
[20:07] <heno> jcastro: thanks!
[20:07] <jcastro> I /think/ they need to be added manually
[20:07] <heno> ok, let's start
[20:07] <heno> topic: Intrepid QA schedule
[20:07] <heno> please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/IntrepidSchedule and raise any objections
[20:08] <heno> thanks bdmurray for updating it for Intrepid
[20:08] <pedro_> looks fine to me
[20:08] <bdmurray> There is still some filing in to do of the focus
[20:09] <pedro_> the developer sprint will be between the 14 and 18 of July, right?
[20:09] <lukehasnoname> 1)What is SRU verification?
[20:09] <lukehasnoname> briefly. I know I'm new, and I don't want to take too much time
[20:09] <davmor2> Looks good
[20:09] <heno> we should have a point for test case review
[20:10] <stgraber> lukehasnoname: Stable Release Update verification
[20:10] <bdmurray> lukehasnoname: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[20:10] <heno> 1-2 weeks before Beta IMObefore Beta
[20:10] <cgregan> heno: I agree.
[20:10] <bdmurray> week 20?
[20:10] <bdmurray> so they get reviewed with Alpha 6?
[20:11] <heno> sure, ~September 18th seems good
[20:11] <bdmurray> or 21 after UI freeze?
[20:11] <heno> after UI freeze, before beta some time
[20:12] <heno> we should perhaps allow a week for that process
[20:12] <bdmurray> I updated week 21 w/ test case review
[20:12] <heno> Alpha 6 is a good time to confirm that its A-ok
[20:12] <heno> thanks
[20:13] <heno> that's all I can see for now
[20:13] <heno> please raise further feedback on the qa list or at next weeks meeting
[20:13] <heno> topic: Intrepid QA specifications
[20:14] <heno> we should update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs for Intrepid
[20:15] <heno> deadline is June 5th but allow some time for review
[20:15] <heno> so we should try to get specs in place by Tuesday in the Review state
[20:16] <mgunes> do we have a list of prospective spec titles/stubs?
[20:16] <heno> topics from here http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/uds-intrepid/ don't all map well to specs
[20:16] <mgunes> indeed
[20:16] <heno> mgunes: right, so some rejigging will be required
[20:17] <heno> I'll start updating the spec wiki page with my take on that, but please also add specs you are leading / involved in
[20:17] <heno> some can be recycles from last cycle
[20:18] <stgraber> I'll be quite busy with exams next week so I'd really appreciate anyone helping me spec the QA-Website, QA-Portal, Package website and Brainstorm specs. I'm not sure of the status of the QA-Tracker spec at the moment
[20:18] <heno> like the desktop testing one
[20:18] <stgraber> QA-Website, QA-Portal and QA-Tracker need a spec, not sure about the two others (Brainstorm and app website)
[20:19] <heno> stgraber: I can help with the QA specs
[20:19] <mgunes> stgraber, I can probably help if you share all your local UDS Gobby sessions that I couldn't save :)
[20:19] <heno> jcastro: I assume you'll keep in touch with stgraber and nand Re the brainstorm stuff
[20:19] <jcastro> heno: yep I was just writing the mail in fact
[20:20] <heno> ah, yes, please help fill the gaps of lost gobby docs generally!
[20:20] <heno> jcastro: cool!
[20:20] <heno> so at next weeks meeting we'll focus on getting the specs wrapped up
[20:21] <mgunes> I'm hoping to implement a "tester weather report" that I talked briefly about at UDS; will add to the specs page once I have a rough spec + some initial feedback
[20:21] <stgraber> mgunes: the gobby session for Brainstorm and AppWebsite are on the wiki, not sure about the QA-Portal one (I may still have it somewhere here)
[20:21] <heno> (I'm also emailing and phoning various people about this this week)
[20:21] <lukehasnoname> how many of you actually went to UDS?
[20:21] <bdmurray> lukehasnoname: probably all the ones talking
[20:21] <lukehasnoname> o_o
[20:22] <lukehasnoname> I'm alone in my absence
[20:22] <heno> we had a good QA showing indeed
[20:22] <mgunes> stgraber, I'd appreciate qa-portal one if you can find it
[20:23] <davmor2> lukehasnoname: your not I wasn't there either :(
[20:23] <heno> any more questions about spec writing?
[20:23] <stgraber> mgunes: I can't find it on gobby, the wiki or my hdd but I think I emailed it to cr3 so I should find it in my sent mails :)
[20:23] <sbeattie> mgunes, stgraber: I might have it
[20:24] <heno> topic: Promoting and tracking the use of proposed
[20:24] <mgunes> stgraber, sbeattie, if you do, please forward to me or ping me (and let's use a standard namespace on gobby.ubuntu.com next time)
[20:24] <stgraber> sbeattie: cool, mine is pre-UDS so I only have the bits discussed at FOSSCamp :(
[20:24] <pedro_> yay for proposed packages
[20:24] <sbeattie> that was the extending-qa.ubuntu.com session, right?
[20:24] <heno> please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed
[20:24] <stgraber> mgunes: I put the one I have in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/FossCamp/
[20:24] <stgraber> sbeattie: yes
[20:24] <pedro_> i should blog about that...
[20:25] <mgunes> stgraber, thanks
[20:25] <sbeattie> stgraber: yeah, I have it, I'll email.
[20:25] <heno> note that my test of Apport failed - does anyone know more about that?
[20:25] <bdmurray> heno: its /etc/default/apport now
[20:25] <lukehasnoname> hardy proposed is for the point release?
[20:25] <stgraber> heno: what failed ? did you see the point I added to your instructions ?
[20:25] <heno> If a restart is required I should add that to the page
[20:26] <stgraber> modifying /etc/default/apport and running /etc/init.d/apport restart should start it
[20:26] <pedro_> an apport restart should do the trick
[20:26] <pedro_> right
[20:26] <heno> stgraber, bdmurray: I did that
[20:27] <heno> ah! we need to add the /etc/init.d/apport step
[20:27] <davmor2> heno: I just ran the commands and nothing happens
[20:27] <bdmurray> heno: how did you get the smaller picture, it's not obvious to me at the moment
[20:28] <heno> ok, it works now. I'll update the instructions
[20:28] <heno> bdmurray: the thumbnai? resize in gimp :)
[20:28] <heno> thumbnail even
[20:28] <bdmurray> ah, I thought it was some wiki magic
[20:29] <stgraber> bdmurray: would be too easy :)
[20:29] <davmor2> bdmurray: no just a lot of time in the gimp and a line of text a mile long ;)
[20:30] <davmor2> guys I still can't get apport to run :(
[20:30] <lukehasnoname> its legs are tired
[20:30] <heno> what do people think of tracking -proposed usage in this way? See: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/proposed-tracking/+bugs
[20:31] <heno> If we agree that it's sane I'll blog about it later
[20:31] <heno> mgunes: could you echo that in a forum thread as well?
[20:32] <stgraber> looks good to me
[20:32] <mgunes> heno, will do if we decide to go on with it
[20:32] <heno> mgunes: I actually stole your idea of using a forum sticky with me too comments
[20:32] <bdmurray> Did we have some discussion about tagging proposed package crashes somehow?  If so that should be in those two bug reports.
[20:32] <davmor2> Looks good but I don't seem to be able to enable apport still :(
[20:33] <heno> but I though LP would be good because testers really should have an LP account and have uploaded a HW profile
[20:33] <mgunes> heno, cool; improvised solutions can work better than elaborate ones :)
[20:34] <heno> bdmurray: perhaps we should also link to bug filing guidelines
[20:34] <mgunes> heno, but what would be the "more automated solution" mentioned at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed ?
[20:34] <heno> mgunes: we discussed at UDS to use popcon to collect the info
[20:34] <heno> (opt-in obviously)
[20:35] <heno> but we'll look closer at that post hardy.1
[20:35] <mgunes> ah, ok, I remember
[20:35] <heno> sbeattie has looked at the code a bit
[20:36] <heno> ok, we seem agreed. I'll go ahead with that
[20:36] <heno> please help seed the bugs with your registrations!
[20:37] <heno> bdmurray: will you add the tag and bug filing doc links to the bug descriptions?
[20:37] <heno> bdmurray: use whatever tag convention you feel is appropriate
[20:37] <bdmurray> heno: sure
[20:37] <heno> thanks
[20:38] <heno> topic: Can people check out the files under [WWW] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Includes please? -- davmor2
[20:38] <mgunes> heno, there's yet no way to query one's own uploaded hardware info (or whether it's uploaded at all) in LP right?
[20:38] <heno> mgunes: you have to check the non-published URL
[20:38] <lukehasnoname> Guys, quick question: Hypothetically, if someone designed a website for Ubuntu that had a system integrating bug tracking, error reporting, wiki, brainstorm, member information, etc., do you think Ubuntu would ipliment it?
[20:38] <heno> on the form https://launchpad.net/~<launchpad-id>/+hwdb-submissions
[20:39] <davmor2> mgunes: probably not but if your a tester then you can always add your HW spec to your tracker account and that can
[20:39] <lukehasnoname> *implement, I'm smarter than I spell
[20:39] <pedro_> isn't the last test on the Tomboy page a bit generic?
[20:39] <heno> lukehasnoname: why would you want to reimplement that?
[20:40] <mgunes> heno, found it right after asking, thanks :)
[20:40] <pedro_> i mean, that's the goal for almost all the UI applications
[20:41] <davmor2> cool :)
[20:41] <lukehasnoname> I admit I am no expert at navigating the different sites. Perhaps it is my ignorance. However, it seems that the layout and the ways in which things are done are thrown together
[20:41] <heno> writing test cases can be hard because you run out of new things to test after a while -- I'm sure additions are welcome :)
[20:42] <lukehasnoname> If there were a more structured, planned setup, things might be more navigable / easier to maintain
[20:42] <heno> I know, I've written some and you find yourself stumped for coming up with interesting ways to test even the simplest applications
[20:43] <sbeattie> davmor2: cgregan has some stuff on the wiki about testing mobile apps, might be able to steal specific tests from that.
[20:43] <lukehasnoname> Now that Ubuntu is becoming larger in the community, it is not so hard to make a plan on a professional, deliberate web environment.
[20:43] <heno> sbeattie: he and davmor2 have actually worked together on those :)
[20:43] <davmor2> sbeattie: I been working on them with him :)
[20:44] <lukehasnoname> If I'm hijacking the meeting, I'll stop, I'll just draw up specs myself and see where things go. thanks for bouncing my ideas.
[20:44] <heno> I think the new test case structure and layout generally rocks!
[20:44] <heno> though a bit more detail would help in many cases
[20:45] <heno> pedro_: could you do a review of the desktop cases and add some more steps?
[20:45] <pedro_> heno: sure, will do it
[20:45] <heno> thanks
[20:45] <pedro_> np :-)
[20:46] <heno> ok, any other topics?
[20:46] <lukehasnoname> Now how do I contribute to testing?
[20:46] <davmor2> I feel a 3
[20:47] <lukehasnoname> er, register for it?
[20:47] <heno> lukehasnoname: what kind of testing?
[20:47] <heno> Hardy updates, ISO testing, or mobile perhaps? :)
[20:48] <heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing is a good place to start reading
[20:48] <lukehasnoname> in the testing cases for install and desktop
[20:48] <cgregan> For mobile: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEdesktop
[20:49] <heno> lukehasnoname: that's install, so you'll need to register at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
[20:49] <lukehasnoname> Let me clarify: Are those for people to test their own software for their own sake, or for testers to verify and report back to Ubuntu QA?
[20:49] <heno> we actually have proper test tracking for that :)
[20:50] <heno> to report back that the updated/installed packages work as expected
[20:50] <heno> looks like we are done with meeting
[20:50] <heno> thanks everyone!
[20:50] <stgraber> thanks
[20:50] <pedro_> thanks you
[20:50] <lukehasnoname> Every Wednesday at this time?
[20:51] <sbeattie> thanks
[20:51] <mgunes> thanks, see you all
[20:51] <davmor2> yay got apport working :)
[20:51] <jcastro> take care guys!
[20:51] <stgraber> davmor2: cool
[20:52] <davmor2> lukehasnoname: you might want to think about joining the #ubuntu-testing channel
[20:53] <lukehasnoname> hm, cool
[20:53] <Daviey> @schedule
[20:53] <lukehasnoname> Now that I have a job I have time to kill on the net studying Ubuntu
[20:54] <Daviey> gah, UTC != UTC+1 :(
[20:54] <RoAkSoAx> pedro_, have a question, at what time is the Americas Membership Board meeting?? because, in the wiki says 00.00 UTC and here 01.00 UTC...
[20:54] <lukehasnoname> BTW, My birthday is October 30th, so I expect a damned fine Ibex.
[20:54] <pedro_> it's at UTC 00:00
[20:54] <lukehasnoname> It's at 8pm CDT
[20:54] <pedro_> don't trust the topic this time ;-)
[20:55] <lukehasnoname> I think?
[20:55] <pedro_> the right information is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[20:56] <RoAkSoAx> pedro_, haha ok thanks ;)
[20:57] <pedro_> RoAkSoAx: you're welcome :-)
[20:58] <bdmurray> pedro_: how many hours is that? ;)
[21:02] <pedro_> bdmurray: the meeting? should be like ~1 hour (hope so)
[21:02] <bdmurray> I really meant hours away
[21:03] <bdmurray> apparently math and english are hard
[21:04] <pedro_> 4 from now on
[21:04] <davmor2> bdmurray: not when ya talk proper English like what we does :)
[21:20] <lukehasnoname> who's bored
[21:21] <RoAkSoAx> @schedule lima
[21:21] <lukehasnoname> me too
[21:22] <RoAkSoAx> lol
[21:24] <Syntux> @schedule
[21:24] <lukehasnoname> Damage Inc. - Metallica
[21:34]  * lukehasnoname joined #ubuntu-meeting
[21:41] <lukehasnoname> PriceChild joined us
[21:52] <zul> evening
[21:52] <lukehasnoname> hi
[21:59] <sommer> hey all
[21:59]  * nealmcb got home yesterday and is hoping to be over most of the jet lag by tomorrow....
[21:59] <nealmcb> sommer: howdy :)
[21:59] <Koon> sommer: \o/
[21:59]  * owh waves with bleary eyes almost open.
[21:59] <kirkland> howdy
[21:59] <zul> bonjour
[22:00] <lukehasnoname> Hi
[22:00] <sommer> heh, o//
[22:00] <mathiaz> hello world of the Ubuntu Server
[22:00] <mathiaz> hope everyone got back from UDS safely
[22:00] <soren> o/
[22:00] <nealmcb> no mootbot: Seeker`: broken bot - sorry, I've got exams at the moment, i'll fix it when they are over
[22:01] <mathiaz> nealmcb: really ?
[22:01] <mathiaz> nealmcb: MootBot is here though
[22:01] <nealmcb> quote from an hour ago.... - but try it anyway
[22:01] <mathiaz> anyway - let's get started
[22:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[22:01] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[22:01] <dendrobates-> o/
[22:02] <mathiaz> after a three week break, we've got a couple of things to discuss.
[22:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review last meeting action point
[22:02] <mathiaz> last meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080507
[22:02]  * nealmcb . o O (UDS was a break?)
[22:02] <mathiaz> I see one point - kirkland and virtualization
[22:02] <owh> ROTFL
[22:03] <kirkland> mathiaz: i think we decided on their names
[22:03] <kirkland> mathiaz: i updated the packages in my PPA
[22:03] <kirkland> mathiaz: now, I'd like to see about getting them uploaded into Intrepid
[22:03]  * nealmcb cheers for kirkland
[22:03]  * kirkland bows
[22:03] <ivoks> (hi all)
[22:04] <mathiaz> kirkland: did you ask for feedback on ubuntu-server@ ?
[22:04] <kirkland> mathiaz: I did
[22:04] <kirkland> mathiaz: Thu, May 8, 2008 at 11:19 AM
[22:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: one person said thanks, he'd be using them
[22:05] <mathiaz> kirkland: great - next step is to get your new package uploaded
[22:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2008-May/001493.html
[22:05] <mathiaz> kirkland: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages?highlight=(NewPackages)
[22:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: okay
[22:06] <mathiaz> allright - that's all from the last meeting I think
[22:07] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Specification writing
[22:07] <mathiaz> so at UDS we talked a lot - now is time to write down specifications
[22:07] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: who is doing what ?
[22:08] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: I'm not sure about this as most of our discussed topics at uds hadn't blueprints registered
[22:08] <lukehasnoname> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid/Report/Server
[22:08] <dendrobates-> If you chaired a session, you should write the spec.
[22:08] <lukehasnoname> for those who ahven't seen it
[22:08] <dendrobates-> I will edit them as necessary
[22:08] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: ok.
[22:08] <dendrobates-> and do any that are left over.
[22:08] <mathiaz> so the deadline for spec write in thursday next week
[22:09] <ivoks> ok
[22:09] <dendrobates-> just a reminder that writing a spec does not mean that it will end up in intrepid for sure.
[22:10] <dendrobates-> but it is a good start.
[22:10] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: I was wondering if it makes sense to have Intrepid in the name of the wiki page
[22:10] <ivoks> do we need to write specs for stuff we disccused and agreed on at uds?
[22:10] <mathiaz> I've gone through all specs, that are still valid
[22:10] <mathiaz> ivoks: it would help
[22:10] <mathiaz> ivoks: to keep track of what we're doing and implementation
[22:10] <ivoks> mathiaz: ok, i'll do my part
[22:11] <dendrobates-> mathiaz: sure.
[22:11] <mathiaz> once the spec are written, they'll be added to the Roadmap
[22:11] <mathiaz> and we'll review the progress during the server meeting
[22:11] <mathiaz> ivoks: it will help wrt to freezes and so on
[22:12] <ivoks> right
[22:12] <mathiaz> ivoks: I'd also use them to extract tasks for new contributors
[22:12] <mathiaz> ivoks: so that people can get started quickly
[22:12] <mathiaz> if you have an idea but don't have time, write a spec
[22:13] <ivoks> :)
[22:13] <mathiaz> and may be someone else will pick it up and do the work :D
[22:13] <dendrobates-> please check if a spec exists, before you create it, though.
[22:14] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: where ? in lp or on the wiki ?
[22:14] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: does it make sense to take over old wiki pages and refresh them ?
[22:14] <dendrobates-> lp is where it matters.
[22:14] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: ok.
[22:15] <mathiaz> if someone writes up a new wiki page for an existing blueprint in lp, dendrobates- can update the spec in lp
[22:15] <mathiaz> update the drafter, etc... of the blueprint in lp
[22:16] <effie_jayx> @now
[22:16] <mathiaz> let's move on
[22:16] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Discussion on current status of J2EESupport options
[22:16] <mathiaz> Koon: what's the state of j2ee ?
[22:17] <Koon> ok, so I've been exploring our options
[22:17] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/J2EESupport
[22:17] <Koon> yes, work in progress
[22:17] <Koon> I mostly checked Tomcat and Geronimo for now
[22:17] <Koon> but I already have a few questions I would like to discuss
[22:18] <Koon> Two of our options are "modular" targets
[22:18] <Koon> a framework where you pull in plug-ins based on what you want to do
[22:18] <Koon> (geronimo and GlassFish v3 do this)
[22:19] <Koon> the interesting part being you can use them just as a servlet container, or pull things all the way to make a full J2EE server, whatever you need
[22:19] <Koon> so a single product would allow us to cover all the types of needs
[22:20] <sommer> I forget, but is glassfish v3 going to be out by intrepid?
[22:21] <Koon> sommer: not really
[22:21] <sommer> gotcha, just double checking
[22:21] <mathiaz> Koon: have you looked at tomcat5.5 packaging ?
[22:21] <Koon> is modularity something we should try to have ?
[22:21] <ivoks> so, glassfish isn't really an option
[22:21] <Koon> mathiaz: yes
[22:21] <mathiaz> Koon: is it modular or monolitic ?
[22:22] <Koon> there are a few issues with the tomcat5.5 package, nothing too complicated to fix (see wiki)
[22:22] <dendrobates-> we should wait for the matrix to be finished before we try to draw any conclusions
[22:22] <Koon> tomcat5.5 is just a servlet container, nothing more, nothing less
[22:22] <dendrobates-> modularity sounds good though.
[22:22] <Koon> dendrobates-: I have the question about maven
[22:23] <Koon> it's the build system used in Geronimo and Glassfish v3 (possibly others)
[22:23] <mathiaz> Koon: IMO aiming at being modular is a good thing
[22:23] <mathiaz> Koon: modular => multiple binary packages
[22:23] <mathiaz> Koon: you may want to have a look Zope3 also
[22:23] <dendrobates-> Koon: what about maven?
[22:23] <faulkes-> arguably modular == multiple binary packages ;)
[22:24] <Koon> mathiaz: yes. We would ship the base, the modules + a few metapackages
[22:24] <mathiaz> Koon: IIRC upstream uses lot's of smal package
[22:24] <faulkes-> sematics, I know
[22:24] <Koon> dendrobates-: it cannot really be used to build a package in the debian way
[22:24] <faulkes-> but I agree in principle that modular is better
[22:25] <Koon> dendrobates-: afaict having a deb-compliant Maven is still work in progress at debian-java
[22:25] <dendrobates-> Koon: What are the technical issues with maven?
[22:25]  * nijaba waves (and presents excuses for being late)
[22:25] <Koon> dendrobates-: maven downloads at build time all the build deps, dozens of jars from everywhere
[22:26] <mathiaz> Koon: this should be put somewhere in the Spec
[22:26]  * faulkes- hides from nijaba in fear of his well overdue WP
[22:26] <mathiaz> Koon: so that we know what work needs to be done
[22:27] <Koon> dendrobates-: to use maven in the deb building, it needs to be patched to use a common local repository, and all maven plugins must be packaged as individual packages
[22:27] <Koon> so that we can list them as deb build-deps
[22:27] <dendrobates-> Koon: understood.
[22:28] <Koon> it looks like a lot more work than packaging geronimo itself.
[22:28] <Koon> last question : am I right to assume all build deps for a package targeted for Main must also be in Main ?
[22:28] <mathiaz> Koon: yes
[22:29] <Koon> ok
[22:29] <soren> main must be self-contained.
[22:29] <Koon> I'll continue to investigate options, trying to have a complete matrix by Friday
[22:30] <Koon> dendrobates-: Geronimo was every reactive, provided a patch to allow OpenJDK-6 building
[22:30] <dendrobates-> Koon: that is a good sign.
[22:31] <Koon> ok, next item
[22:31] <mathiaz> Koon: great - thanks.
[22:31] <emgent> @now
[22:31] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] front end for ubuntu-vm-builder
[22:32] <mathiaz> kirkland: what have you created on your way back from UDS ?
[22:32] <kirkland> mathiaz: a simple frontend for generating the verbose arguments ubuntu-vm-builder accepts
[22:32] <kirkland> mathiaz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/ubuntu-vm-builder.html
[22:32] <kirkland> mathiaz: it's javascript, so it runs in your local browser, no posting of passwords and machine configurations over the net
[22:33] <kirkland> mathiaz: and it could give us something to work with in building vm's as a webservice
[22:33] <dendrobates-> kirkland: it's a good start, thanks
[22:33] <owh> kirkland: What happened to the --exec flag?
[22:33] <kirkland> mathiaz: I also have python code that does the same, but requires GET/POST
[22:33] <kirkland> owh: i'm accepting patches ;-)
[22:33] <owh> Heh
[22:33] <kirkland> owh: i have about 90% coverage of ubuntu-vm-builder's options
[22:33] <owh> kirkland: I already did in the actual code :)
[22:34] <nijaba> kirkland: for 0.4 that is ;)
[22:34] <owh> Cool, in my spare life, I'll have a squiz.
[22:34] <kirkland> nijaba: touche, yes
[22:34] <kirkland> i thought a few people here might find it useful
[22:34] <ScottK2> kirkland: I think I know who needs to work on our config editor for deploying different server flavors ...
[22:34] <kirkland> and figured i'd talk with soren more about what his vision is on a front end in the future
[22:35]  * owh wrote a local little script for the same effect, never thought to share it.
[22:35]  * nijaba hugs kirkland as he find it an extremely good start
[22:35] <kirkland> thanks, nijaba
[22:36] <kirkland> you can wget the html and run it locally, as file:///tmp/ubuntu-vm-builder.html as well...  as i said, no webserver required
[22:36] <owh> Nice.
[22:36] <zul> javascript needs to be turned on though :)
[22:37] <kirkland> mathiaz: that's all.
[22:37] <nijaba> zul: heh, I'm sure we can do a version in flash just for you
[22:37] <owh> Yuk
[22:37]  * ScottK2 hides his eyes.
[22:37] <kirkland> nijaba: ActiveX!
[22:37] <mathiaz> kirkland: great !
[22:38]  * faulkes- agrees with kirkland
[22:38] <zul> nijaba: ouch you are making my brain freeze
[22:38] <faulkes-> ActiveX is definitely the way to go
[22:38] <Koon> faulkes-: it has always been
[22:38] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Status of the Ubuntu Server Survey
[22:38] <mathiaz> owh: what's the state of this ?
[22:38] <nijaba> good news on that front
[22:39] <nijaba> limesurvey just informed me that they fixed the security issues kees found
[22:39]  * owh has comments, but will wait until nijaba is done.
[22:39] <nijaba> so it should, in theory, be suitable for usage in the dc
[22:39] <nijaba> but we need a counter verification by kees first
[22:40] <owh> How far along is that?
[22:40] <nijaba> that -vv
[22:41] <owh> The verification.
[22:41] <owh> Or does kees need be asked?
[22:41] <nijaba> well, that really depends on kees load, I can't predict
[22:41] <kees> hello!  (sorry, I'm still lagging behind reality -- conf + weekend + sick == eeeek)
[22:41]  * owh sends a cup of hot Milo to kees.
[22:41] <kees> :):)
[22:42] <nijaba> question was; when could you be able to check limesurvey again
[22:42] <nijaba> as limesurvey says they fixed the issues you found
[22:42] <kees> re-checks are usually easier and faster.  given my current load, though, I don't think I can get to it this week.
[22:42] <kees> perhaps early next week?  tuesday maybe?
[22:42] <owh> Can we book an appointment :)
[22:42] <kees> heh
[22:43] <kees> if only all security issues booked appointments.  :)
[22:43] <owh> Ah, we're not an issue, we're an audit :)
[22:43] <owh> So, if Tuesday happens, then next meeting we should be pretty close then?
[22:43] <nijaba> but issues for stuff in main take precedence, obviously, to the audits
[22:44] <kees> very true, but my load tends to alternate depending on surprises.  ;)  Anyway, let's say I'll have you something by EOD on tuesday.
[22:44]  * nijaba thanks kees in advance
[22:44] <owh> +1
[22:44]  * kees hugs owh and nijaba
[22:44] <nijaba> then I need to finalize my package for it, and we a re done
[22:45] <owh> Well on that note, let me add my two cents.
[22:45] <mathiaz> nijaba: package ? it's not part of the archive yet ?
[22:45] <owh> Related to the survey I've just joined the ubuntu-marketing team where a healthy discussion is underway to discuss how a marketing team can provide resources to LoCos and teams such as ubuntu-server.
[22:45] <nijaba> please
[22:45] <owh> Related to the survey I've just joined the ubuntu-marketing team where a healthy discussion is underway to discuss how a marketing team can provide resources to LoCos and teams such as ubuntu-server.
[22:45] <owh> crap
[22:45] <owh> I joined because I felt that it would be beneficial for ubuntu-server to have a representation within marketing and because I have some personal marketing ideas for my company with respect to Ubuntu.
[22:45] <owh> I've also updated the embargo date on the proposed survey press release, that is, removed the April 2008 date reference and was hoping that we would come to a release schedule or plan that I could report back to ubuntu-marketing as an example of how u-s could work with u-m.
[22:46] <owh> Is there additional work we could do before we spring our survey on the world?
[22:46] <mathiaz> owh: could some of the task be done in parallel ?
[22:46] <nijaba> that would make sense
[22:46] <owh> mathiaz: I don't understand hour question.
[22:46] <owh> s/h/y/
[22:46] <mathiaz> owh: hm.. let me rephrase
[22:47] <mathiaz> owh: how could u-m help us in the survey ?
[22:47] <mathiaz> owh: if they have other ideas or can help on the press release text, that can be done while we're waiting for kees audit
[22:48] <owh> mathiaz: Well, right now I think that they might have additional contacts. It appears that they are revitalising after a hiatus. I agree with the latter points. I'll start the ball running after this meeting for that.
[22:48] <mathiaz> owh: refining the list of communication channels to announce the survey can also be done at the same time
[22:48] <santiago-pgsql> date
[22:48] <owh> Yes
[22:48] <owh> santiago-pgsql: That will depend on nijaba and kees.
[22:49] <owh> It may also depend on other releases, but I'm (not yet) aware of those.
[22:49] <owh> How about we aim for June 15 - picked out of a hat.
[22:49] <mathiaz> owh: well we don't know when the audit will be done
[22:50] <mathiaz> owh: I wouldn't pick a date
[22:50] <owh> That's fine by me, but our time-line is slipping if we want to use the data for our next release.
[22:50] <nijaba> let's pick a date the day we have the ful stuff running in the dc...
[22:50] <owh> Cool
[22:51] <nijaba> owh: me too, but it would be bad to announce something that is not ready
[22:51] <mathiaz> owh: anything else to add on this front ?
[22:51] <owh> nijaba: I'll use the intervening time to sharpen up the release and release process. All good.
[22:51] <owh> mathiaz: Nope, I'm done.
[22:52] <mathiaz> owh: great - I'm eager to see how we can collaborate with the ubuntu-marketing team
[22:52] <lukehasnoname> Hey guys, I gotta jet, workday is over.  What was discussed at UDS about this?"
[22:52]  * nijaba nods
[22:52] <owh> mathiaz: You and me both.
[22:52] <lukehasnoname> seeya next Wed
[22:52] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Any other business
[22:53] <mathiaz> anything else to add ?
[22:53] <zul> yes just one
[22:53] <zul> 8.04.1 is coming out in early july I encourage people to test out server related SRUs they can be found in the wiki
[22:53] <ivoks> right
[22:54] <owh> In brief answer to lukehasnoname, kirkland and I are still working on the status for init.d scripts. We've found some bugs thanks to a discussion yesterday with lamont. I've committed to making some patches and a bug report. You can add it as an action point.
[22:54] <nijaba> tomorrow is the deadline for bugs picked for it right?
[22:54] <dendrobates-> Howard posted this to openldap-devel about uds: http://www.openldap.org/lists/openldap-devel/200805/msg00087.html
[22:54] <soren> zul: Early June? The release schedule says July?
[22:55] <zul> I said early July didnt I?
[22:55] <nijaba> July 3rd
[22:55] <soren> zul: Wow..
[22:55] <soren> zul: Yes, you did.
[22:55]  * soren puts down the crack pipe
[22:56] <owh> Also, the Intrepid Report shown at the beginning of the meeting shows comments about calendar servers. I've been working with Jo Erlend Schinstad on docs for Darwin Calendar Server and it has now been packaged for Intrepid: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CalendarServer and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/182591
[22:56] <Koon> soren: you've been doing too much support in #ubuntu-virt
[22:56] <zul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/StableReleaseTracker please test the ones marked needs testing
[22:57] <soren> Koon: Feel like taking over? :)
[22:57] <Koon> soren: nobody could replace you, you know that :)
[22:57] <zul> owh: really wow!
[22:57] <nijaba> double wow
[22:57] <ivoks> umm
[22:57]  * owh takes no credit for the packaging.
[22:57] <ivoks> on this list, one can't really tell if these are hardy or dapper sru
[22:58]  * owh just wrote the docs and seconded the packaging request :)
[22:58] <zul> ivoks: they are all for hardy
[22:58] <ivoks> maybe we should add 'version' column?
[22:58] <mathiaz> owh: any plans to move relevant bits of the how-to to help.ubuntu.com ?
[22:58] <zul> ivoks: but yeah I can do that
[22:58] <ivoks> zul: including openldap2.3?
[22:59] <owh> mathiaz: Well, most of the howto should become obsolete once I've had a moment to test the package.
[22:59] <ivoks> hardy has 2.4 :)
[22:59] <zul> ivoks: ill fix that
[22:59] <owh> mathiaz: But given that I wasn't at UDS, this was my opportunity to point at DCS :)
[23:00] <mathiaz> owh: great! - thanks for the heads up
[23:00] <mathiaz> owh: I'm sure zul will appreciate this
[23:00] <mathiaz> Time to wrap up
[23:00] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[23:00] <mathiaz> next week, same time, same place ?
[23:00] <owh> +1
[23:01] <soren> You bet.
[23:01] <zul> can we make it an hour earlier if possible
[23:01] <ivoks> zul: +1
[23:01] <Koon> zul: +1
[23:01] <owh> Uhm, that would be 4 am for me :(
[23:02] <kirkland> +1
[23:02]  * owh is in a dressing gown with a hot cup of coffee :)
[23:02] <mathiaz> could we make it 4 hours earlier instead ?
[23:02] <kirkland> oh, sorry, i wasn't +1'ing the one hour earlier
[23:02] <mathiaz> that would be 17:00 UTC
[23:02] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm okay with that
[23:02] <owh> 1am, hmm, that's even worse mathiaz.
[23:03] <ivoks> owh: well, it's midnight here now :D
[23:03] <Koon> 16:00 UTC ?
[23:03] <owh> Well, if there is a majority for a different time, I'll turn up when it happens. I might not be handing out Milo, but I'll be there.
[23:04] <ivoks> it's really hard to decide; at this time my brain doesn't function very well, but at 16UTC i might not even make it :/
[23:04] <owh> So far it seems that 1 hour earlier is a better deal for many.
[23:04] <owh> The ubuntu-marketing team has a calculator. I'll find the URL.
[23:05] <owh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings
[23:05] <owh> You all get to vote :)
[23:05] <mathiaz> well - someone will always be screwed
[23:05] <ivoks> right
[23:05] <mathiaz> ok - so I'll send an email to u-server with a new proposal
[23:05] <owh> mathiaz: I recon, propose a time and ask again.
[23:05] <dendrobates-> mathiaz: didn't you post this time to the ml and decide it was best?
[23:06] <ivoks> let's just keep it as is
[23:06] <mathiaz> for a new time - need to check with the calendar
[23:06] <mathiaz> and for next week, same time, same place
[23:06] <sommer> works for me :)
[23:06] <mathiaz> dendrobates-: yes - that was before owh was attending meeting at 5 AM for him
[23:06] <nijaba> thanks mathiaz
[23:06] <dendrobates-> ouch
[23:07] <owh> I'm cool with 5am, just not so much 4am.
[23:07]  * Koon waves goodnight to everyone
[23:07] <mathiaz> all right - thanks all
[23:07] <dendrobates-> bye
[23:07] <owh> Thanks mathiaz
[23:07] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[23:07] <owh> Later all.
[23:07] <sommer> thanks mathiaz, later on all
[23:07] <ivoks> bye
[23:09] <kirkland> bye
[23:34] <Seeker`> mathiaz: sorry for the lack of a working mootbot - I'm hoping to be able to fix it on friday
[23:35] <mathiaz> Seeker`: np.
[23:35] <mathiaz> Seeker`: we can run meeting without it - however it's a big helper when it comes to summarize a meeting
[23:36] <mathiaz> Seeker`: and prepare the minutes - thanks for your work ! :)
[23:36] <Seeker`> mathiaz: There have been problems with hosting over the past few months, and it doesn't seem to want to work on its current host, and i'm not sure why
[23:37] <Seeker`> not a problem - I really need to do more work on it, I haven't touched the code much in > 1 year
[23:45] <viperhoot> hmmm the meeting of the américas has an error in the hour
[23:46] <viperhoot> is 00:00 UTC
[23:47] <viperhoot> only for consideration ;)
[23:50] <pochu> Rinchen: ^ (you're in the fridge team, right? :) )
[23:50] <Rinchen> hello
[23:51] <Rinchen> viperhoot, is that for a particular event? or everything consistently in the title?
[23:52] <viperhoot> Rinchen, yes, for the  Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
[23:52] <viperhoot> it is programmed for the 00:00 UTC not 01:00 UTC
[23:53] <Rinchen> ok, let me have a look
[23:53] <Rinchen> brb
[23:53] <viperhoot> Rinchen, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas ;)
[23:53] <Rinchen> well, I need the fridge entry :-)
[23:54] <Rinchen> viperhoot, this one? http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1455
[23:54] <viperhoot> yes, May 28th at (8:00pm) Eastern
[23:55] <cody-somerville> The meeting is in 65 minutes.
[23:55] <viperhoot> 00:00 UTC
[23:55] <Rinchen> hmm something is off on the timezone calcs it seems.
[23:55] <viperhoot> cody-somerville, yes :D i'm member candidate for this meeting :D
[23:55] <Rinchen> I'll fix the entry
[23:56] <Rinchen> that means 00:00 UTC if my math is correct
[23:56] <viperhoot> Rinchen, ejem
[23:56] <cody-somerville> EST is actually EDT right now
[23:56] <cody-somerville> So it is -4 instead of regular -5
[23:57] <viperhoot> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=5&day=29&year=2008&hour=00&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 ;)
[23:57] <Rinchen> cody-somerville, yeah, we'll have to remember to list things as GMT until we figure that out
[23:57] <Rinchen> cody-somerville, I'm not sure what script populates this topic
[23:57] <Rinchen> @now
[23:58] <Rinchen> I fixified it ;-)
[23:58] <Rinchen> er
[23:58] <Rinchen> hmm
[23:58] <Rinchen> the calendar entry is correct but not everything else
[23:58] <Rinchen> @denver
[23:58] <cody-somerville> @toronto
[23:58] <Rinchen> @americas/denver
[23:58] <pochu> @ schedule denver
[23:58] <Rinchen> I always forget the commands
[23:59] <pochu> :)
[23:59] <viperhoot> @ schedule lima
[23:59] <cody-somerville> @schedule toronto
[23:59] <Rinchen> ok, well, I updated the fridge.  I think I remember a script running hourly which updates this channel
[23:59] <viperhoot> ok
[23:59] <pochu> !bye


[00:02] <itnet7> ;-)
[02:36] <govatent> lol
[02:36] <govatent> well i'm back now
[02:36] <govatent> i had stepped away
[02:50] <ShawnR> stepped away? for 10 hrs?
[03:00] <govatent> yea lol
[03:01] <govatent> i went out to work and just got back a while back
[03:06] <ShawnR> haha
[03:06] <ShawnR> so, i'm having a terrible time with dual displays (ATI HD5770)
[03:07] <ShawnR> lose 3d unity when enabling that xenima....whatever option
[03:08] <ShawnR> i had dual 19" 1280x1024 working ok, but now i have 1 1280x1024 as monitor 2 and a 24" 1080p display for monitor 1 and they don't play nice
[03:18] <govatent> hum
[03:18] <govatent> I have a 5450 with a single 1080p display so can't really comment on that issue
[03:20] <govatent> i just looked it up , i had no idea that xenima option was even there in ccc pannel
[03:24] <ShawnR> yeah, i didn't know that xenima was avail on nvidia until i was googling issues... i thought it was an ATI thing like eyefinity
[03:24] <ShawnR> i hope this whole STEAM thing (btw, client public beta targeted in october) will get ATI and nvidia on the ball
[03:24] <ShawnR> they have made intel look really good, though
[03:26] <govatent> ive got the 5450 in my desktop and intel hd 4000 ivy bridge gpu in my system76 laptop
[03:26] <govatent> i so hope to get in the steam beta to test
[03:27] <ShawnR> me, too
[03:27] <govatent> the hd 4000 in my laptop has been great for all the indie games and stuff in the software center
[03:28] <ShawnR> yeah, my ATI card in this desktop and an nvidia in my daughter's just doesn't do so grand
[03:28] <ShawnR> i wish it wasn't so hard to play something like minecraft in linux
[03:28] <govatent> my desktop card is fairly old. 5450 with 256 ddr3 video memory
[03:28] <ShawnR> you know, a JAVA game, but you gotta jump through hoops, and at the end, it runs, and kinda smooth, but not great for what my HW really is
[03:28] <ShawnR> you and me both
[03:29] <govatent> are you talking about that library file in minecraft that needs an update?
[03:29] <ShawnR> this 5770 is the biggest/best card i can put in here anyways... it's my wife's shuttle (Q6600)
[03:29] <ShawnR> govatent: among other things
[03:29] <govatent> oh plus getting java itself
[03:29] <ShawnR> also, they want you to install oracle's java vs openjdk
[03:29] <ShawnR> yeah
[03:29] <ShawnR> and when all is said and don
[03:30] <govatent> i found a group that is doing a ppa for oracle. makes it dead simple and quick to get java running and keep it updated from oracle
[03:30] <govatent> that's what i've been using on my systems when i want to use oracle's java
[03:31] <govatent> has there been any word on how to get your name in for the beta selection?
[03:34] <ShawnR> govatent: the article i read earlier today said that there would be an announcement later on about how to get into the beta
[03:34] <govatent> cool
[03:34] <govatent> gonna have to be on top of that
[03:35] <ShawnR> and yeah, i used the ppa, but then if you wanna make a shortcut (say, for like a 7 yr old to use), it can be a PITA as sometimes openjdk is still default, or you get rid of it and you can't right-click, runwith and pick the oracle runtime
[03:35] <ShawnR> me too
[03:48] <govatent> true
[03:52] <govatent> well i'm heading to bed. going to the hackmiami meeting tomorrow morning
[03:52] <ShawnR> ooh... FFmpeg 1.0 MultiMedia Library Released
[03:52] <ShawnR> have fun with that, goodnight
[03:53] <govatent> take care ill catch you later
[18:04] <govatent> itnet7: ping
[18:09] <itnet7> hey there!
[18:23] <roaksoax> itnet7: duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
[18:23] <itnet7> roaksoax: how are you??
[18:24] <roaksoax> itnet7: good good yourself?
[18:24] <itnet7> roaksoax: not bad, looking forward to UDS, how about you??
[18:25] <roaksoax> itnet7: mee too
[18:25] <roaksoax> i'm not ready yt
[18:25] <roaksoax> don't even have my visa yet
[18:25] <itnet7> Wow!
[18:26] <roaksoax> itnet7: yeah... ppl was late on sending me the documents
[18:29] <itnet7> My tmux session is doing this wierd scrolling thing
[18:29] <govatent> when are you guys leaving?
[18:29] <itnet7> I'm using a buddies PC
[18:29] <itnet7> using putty
[18:29] <itnet7> I leave on the 27th
[18:29] <roaksoax> i leave on the 20th