[00:01] <micahg> asac: just noticed a FF3.5 Series on the 3.0 page
[00:01] <micahg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.0
[00:01] <micahg> for jaunty
[00:05] <asac> micahg: oh, btw today there is a security release going out, which means that we should pay extra attention to new bugs
[00:05] <asac> micahg: for folks reporting regressions
[00:05] <asac> so if there is something that sounds suspicious and you see it ping me asap ;)
[00:05] <asac> even if its nothing ;)
[00:06] <micahg> ok
[00:06] <micahg> I'll be on Sat night
[00:06] <asac> firefox-3.0 and xulrunner-1.9 are the packages
[00:07]  * micahg is going home
[00:56] <asac> fta: tarball is broken in ppa?
[00:56] <asac> tar -C build-tree  -x -j -f mozilla-central-1.9.2~a1~hg20090611r29077-source.tar.bz2
[00:56] <asac> bzip2: I/O or other error, bailing out.  Possible reason follows.
[00:56] <asac> bzip2: Broken pipe Input file = (stdin), output file = (stdout)
[00:56] <asac> tar: Child returned status 1
[00:56] <asac> tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors
[00:56] <asac> make: *** [debian/stamp-mozilla-central-1.9.2~a1~hg20090611r29077-source.tar.bz2] Error 2
[00:57] <fta> got that already, it was bd
[00:57] <fta> not the tarball
[00:57] <fta> try manually, it's fine
[00:57] <asac> sigh
[00:57] <asac> fta: how do you produce the tarball?
[00:57] <fta> tar jcvf
[00:58] <asac> i think its the orig that is broken (for bd)
[00:58] <asac> i dont think that bd has any business in the inner tarball
[00:59] <fta> you can unpack it completely manually, so something's broken inside bd, it's neither the file, nor tar, nor gzip, nor bzip2
[00:59] <asac> ouch
[00:59] <asac> it really is the inner tarball that is broken when you run it in bd?
[00:59] <asac> whats that?
[00:59] <fta> if you dpkg-buildpackage, it's fine, if you bzr bd --merge, it's not
[00:59] <asac> i went into the failed tree and ran debuild -b
[00:59] <asac> and it worked
[01:00] <asac> yes, but how does bd kill the inner cdbs tar
[01:00] <fta> yep, that's what i said
[01:00] <fta> maybe it preloads something
[01:00] <fta> no idea
[01:00] <asac> so current tarball failed?
[01:00] <asac> patches do not apply for me there
[01:00] <fta> i fixed that hours ago
[01:01] <asac> yes, but i used the tarball in current ppa?
[01:01] <asac> or did you upload after that?
[01:01] <fta> i kept the same tarball, just fixed the patch
[01:01] <fta> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-daily/+archive/ppa
[01:02] <fta> ppas are broken right now, unable to publish files
[01:02] <asac> yeah . so i probably worked against tarball from yesterday
[01:02] <asac> nevermind
[01:02] <asac> i tried what i wante to test now manually ;)(
[01:03] <asac> e.g. that the patch is non garbage for mozilla bug 473629
[01:06] <fta> indeed, it's still valid in today's build of trunk
[01:08] <asac_> 02:03 < ubottu> Mozilla bug 473629 in jemalloc "crash on exit in glibc memalign with jemalloc statically linked" [Normal,New] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=473629
[01:08] <asac_> 02:04 -!- micahg<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has quit ["Leaving."]
[01:08] <asac_> 02:04 -!- stevel<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has quit []
[01:08] <asac_> 02:06 < asac> fta: btw, the build system is now in hardy :)
[01:08] <asac_> 02:06 < asac> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xulrunner-1.9/<IP_ADDRESS>+build2+nobinonly-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>
[01:08] <asac_> 02:06 < asac> rather https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/xulrunner-1.9/<IP_ADDRESS>+build2+nobinonly-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>
[01:08] <asac_> 02:07 < asac> so cross your fingers ;)
[01:08] <asac_> 02:07 < asac> !info xulrunner-1.9
[01:08] <fta> ?
[01:23] <asac> fta: i pasted what i wrote before i noticed that i was offline
[01:23] <fta> * micahg has quit ("Leaving.")
[01:23] <fta> * stevel has quit ()
 indeed, it's still valid in today's build of trunk
[01:23] <fta> * asac_<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu-mozillateam
[01:24] <fta> and thanks
[01:25] <fta> Jun 10 20:54:54 <fta>   asac, fennec requires xul trunk now, and the build-system is incomplete.. lacks l10n
[01:37] <asac> fta: yeah. so fennec gave up on making a release any time soon?
[01:39] <fta> i discussed with mfinkle about that, he said it's probably fixable for 191, but no one did it so far (months)
[01:39] <asac> fta: also i am not sure i understand the context. if fennec needs trunk then we dont need to update the hardy xulrunner at least ;) as we will need the build from somewhere else anyway
[01:39] <asac> fta: ok thanks.
[01:40] <fta> xul in hardy fine as it is. fennec needs some l10n mk files, only in trunk, but that's a different story
[11:28] <asac> ola ... today i am on a trip, so cu in the evening!
[13:07] <fta> ripps, i see your daily ppa is all green now. Good. Were you able to do everything you wanted?
[13:21] <alexbodn> fta: i'm on debian, but i found my way with launch-pad files
[13:22] <alexbodn> fta, acas: how did you find my bluegriffon packaging script?
[14:57] <BUGabundo> boas tardes
[15:07] <ripps> fta: I think I've got most things going okay, I'm still running to speed bumps with another set of packages, First, they seem to ignore the $ver~git$release, and trying to manually intiate an update is working.
[15:07] <ripps> *isn't
[18:03] <BUGabundo> fta: where do I file bugs on chromium?!?
[18:29] <fta> BUGabundo, upstream
[18:29] <BUGabundo> code.g.c/p/c?
[18:30] <BUGabundo> I want my ctrl+enter
[18:30] <fta> alexbodn, sorry, i'm no longer interested. I stopped reading your 1st diff where you claimed to be original packager. so, thanks for your work but no thanks. period.
[18:30] <fta> BUGabundo, follow the wiki page
[18:30] <fta> BUGabundo, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Chromium/Debug
[18:30] <fta> there's a link in the 1st part
[18:31] <BUGabundo> fta: thanks
[18:33] <fta> BUGabundo, it's just the regular link + a template for linux
[18:35] <fta> Sorry, the program "firefox-3.6" closed unexpectedly
[18:35] <fta> Your computer does not have enough free memory to automatically analyze the problem and send a report to the developers.
[18:35] <fta> d'oh!
[18:36] <BUGabundo> LOL
[18:37] <BUGabundo> fta: my FF 36 is acting up. after an hour so or so start to churm on CPU
[18:37] <BUGabundo> restarting it fixes it for another hour
[18:37] <Nafallo> lol
[18:37] <BUGabundo> not much opened
[18:48] <fta> my crash was from firebug
[18:49] <BUGabundo> LOL
[18:49] <BUGabundo> does it run on 3.5 now
[18:56] <fta> i'm using it with 3.6
[19:00] <BUGabundo> okk
[19:11] <fta> asac, grrr.. bzr add :)
[19:12] <fta> asac, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/27874687/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-amd64.xulrunner-1.9.2_1.9.2~a1~hg20090613r29194%2Bnobinonly-0ubuntu1~umd1~intrepid_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[19:12] <fta> well, bzr mv
[19:12] <BUGabundo> fta: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=14043
[19:13] <BUGabundo> hey asac
[19:13] <BUGabundo> asac: not using debian cloack ?
[19:13] <BUGabundo> s/debian/ubuntu/
[21:01] <fta> lol http://www.ijg.org/
[21:13] <BUGabundo> fta: isn't jpeg patent closed?
[21:15] <BUGabundo> fta: http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/921561/1/Screen?h=6a6906
[21:15] <BUGabundo> google chrome on mac is color managed
[21:15] <BUGabundo> on linux it isn't
[21:17] <fta> well, i guess it will come soon
[21:27] <BUGabundo> fta: http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter
[21:29] <fta> yep
[22:46] <asac> hmm. is pulse currently completely broken?
[22:46] <BUGabundo> nope
[22:46] <BUGabundo> working here
[22:46] <BUGabundo> but another user reported probs on +1
[22:47] <asac> well. i cannot even start pavucontrol :) ... no connnection possible
[22:47] <asac> odd
[22:48] <BUGabundo> that happens a lot
[22:48] <BUGabundo> PA died
[22:48] <BUGabundo> or something is blocking it
[22:48] <asac> well. PA is running here in my terminal
[22:48] <asac> but nothing can connect to pa
[22:48] <asac> no gnome-sound-properties testsound
[22:48] <Nafallo> I can see asav
[22:48] <Nafallo> FAIL
[22:48] <Nafallo> s/v$/c/
[22:49] <asac> Nafallo: huh?
[22:50] <Nafallo> hi
[22:50] <Nafallo> asac: you can haz njew gajim nau!
[22:51] <asac> +++-[22:51] <asac> ii  gajim                      0.12.3-0ubuntu1            Jabber client written in PyGTK
[22:51]  * BUGabundo starts decoder
[22:51] <asac> that one?
[22:51] <Nafallo> \o/
[22:51]  * asac reboots to see if pulse was one time bustage
[22:51] <BUGabundo> !info gajim
[22:52] <Nafallo> !info gajim karmic
[22:52] <BUGabundo> asac: don't
[22:52] <BUGabundo> you may not return!
[22:52] <BUGabundo> asac: changes to grub / grub2
[22:55] <asac> well returning was easy. sound still broken
[22:56]  * BUGabundo waves guud bye
[23:16] <alexbodn> asac, fta. i've seen you called me but pidgin crashed before it showed your text. sorry
[23:18] <yoasif> hey guys... any chance someone could take a look at this bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/359868/+addcomment
[23:31] <fta> asac, working on the libjpeg thing we discussed earlier
[23:32] <fta> asac, it's painful
[23:33] <fta> asac, mozilla sources are crippled with stuff from nspr (include, types, macros)
[23:53] <fta> ok, it builds now, but it fails on make test


[16:46] <jbicha> hi, I'm proposing that Ubuntu 18.04 stop installing kerneloops-applet by default. Will that cause y'all any problems?


[01:04] <owh> Inbox full again this morning...
[02:32] <Flannel> Anyone know where one can get just the "Pass it on" logo?
[02:35] <owh> Dunno even what it looks like, does images.google have it?
[02:36] <Flannel> owh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu_CD_804.pdf  the logo next to the text on the bottom
[02:37] <owh> Nice logo, can you not extract it from the PDF?
[02:38] <owh> Flannel: Using something like pdfimages?
[02:41] <Flannel> owh: Well, there's an eps version of that, so I can grab it in vector from there, just hoped someone had the plain image
[02:41] <owh> Flannel: Sure, I understand. When you do have it as a separate vector, will you add it to the wiki :)
[04:33] <Flannel> You know, DIYMarketing is the wiki temporary home for Spread Ubuntu and diy.ubuntu.com.  We spent a lot of time at the meeting coming up with the ideas that are already semi-in place
[04:33] <Flannel> http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/SpreadUbuntu%20Structure%20Proposals/Spreadubuntu-060628-jenda.png
[04:34] <Flannel> and some mockups: http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/SpreadUbuntu%20Design%20Mockups/
[04:34] <Flannel> (this is all linked at the top of DIYMarketing, linked here: http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/websites/
[04:36] <Flannel> Looks like the original idea was to use bzr to manage all the content.  That seems... like a good idea.
[04:36] <Flannel> content being "stuff created to download and use"
[04:36] <Flannel> not the website itself
[04:41] <Flannel> +1 to seeing that come to fruition.  If thats what some people were talking about at the meeting, I apologise for berating it.  You simply hadn't explained it clearly enough, I suppose.
[04:55] <owh> +1
[05:13] <boredandblogging> Flannel: there used to be a diy.devubuntu site as well
[05:13] <Flannel> boredandblogging: Right, its defunct except for "Oh hai"
[05:13] <boredandblogging> Flannel: right
[05:14] <Flannel> boredandblogging: it is basically what DIyMarketing page is, right?
[05:14] <Flannel> or, would've been
[05:14] <boredandblogging> Flannel: I don't remember exactly...
[05:14]  * Flannel wonders about the wayback machine.
[05:14] <boredandblogging> but I believe it was supposed to be a place to get material
[05:14] <boredandblogging> and post material
[05:14] <Flannel> right, thats what the description sounds like
[05:15] <boredandblogging> i could be wrong, but I thought some of the code for the stuff is in LP
[05:18] <Flannel> Guess its time to finally learn bzr
[05:18] <Flannel> Hmm, and revert some deletions
[05:27] <owh> I woke up this morning as a member of a new team ubuntu-core-marketing. I cannot say that I agree with the process that caused that. Anyone else think it's premature to start such a team and inappropriate to add members like that?
[05:30]  * owh suspects that pep is in the same boat.
[05:31] <boredandblogging> this topic has been thrashed out in on the list...
[05:31] <boredandblogging> some people believe in structure, some don't
[05:31] <owh> Sure, but I was added to the team without my consent.
[05:31] <boredandblogging> ahhh
[05:32] <boredandblogging> well, you can remove yourself
[05:32] <owh> And show up as a former member of the team, niice.
[05:33] <boredandblogging> its a fine line, like cody said, sometimes just to move things forward, someone has to take initiative...
[05:33] <boredandblogging> but...
[05:34] <owh> To me it speaks to a great disrespect of fellow team members. I am entitled to my opinion and entitled to act upon it. I'm not a serf that can be dragooned into service.
[05:34] <boredandblogging> owh: I doubt it was meant that way
[05:34] <owh> boredandblogging: But therein lies the problem.
[05:35] <boredandblogging> its probably that folks don't understand the tools and ways to use them
[05:35] <boredandblogging> but its just a learning curve
[05:35] <boredandblogging> people make mistakes
[05:35] <owh> If there had been discussion, I could decide for myself what and if I wished to be part of it, rather than have to think about the "message" I'm leaving by removing myself from that team.
[05:36] <boredandblogging> i wouldn't worry about it
[05:37] <owh> You don't think it goes to the heart of the issue?
[05:37] <owh> Do unto others as you would like done onto you?
[05:37] <boredandblogging> owh: I agree, I just wouldn't worry about what kind of signal it sends by leaving
[05:38] <boredandblogging> LP is a tool, people come and go
[05:39] <owh> I cannot help but feel that this is a grab for power - I may well be mistaken, rather than an attempt to "move forward". We spent 3 hours having a serious discussion about the future of the team and then this kind of rubbish happens.
[05:40] <owh> I'm all for initiative, but this goes waaaay beyond that in my opinion.
[05:44] <boredandblogging> owh: have there been any concrete plans of action yet?
[05:44] <owh> Nope. And no structure proposals to the list like we agreed to in the meeting.
[05:45] <Flannel> boredandblogging: The official meeting minutes were only posted yesterday though.
[05:45] <boredandblogging> right, I saw that
[05:50] <boredandblogging> it might help just to get started on some related action items like contactng the Art Team and seeing how they could get involved
[05:50] <owh> Later all, gotta run.
[08:32] <pep> mhhh Onno not here...
[11:50] <jenda> Flannel: perhaps if you poked Dan Buch (meatballhat), he might know where the rest of "oh hai" has gone - he made that change and there was already a pretty decent mockup there.
[11:51] <jenda> Which meeting was the topic discussed at? I might want to read the backlog (if there is one)
[14:20] <Mike_Feravolo> hello
[14:46] <cody-somerville> moo
[17:52] <pwnguin> does canonical have some sort of exclusive right to ubuntu logo tshirts?
[17:56] <pep> no, not in general..
[17:56] <pwnguin> then why the hell are they charging me 45 bucks for a tshirt?
[17:57] <pep> pwnguin: it has rights on the tshirts canonical developed
[17:57] <pep> you can download a logo and put it on a tshirt
[17:57] <pwnguin> "it"
[17:57] <pep> it=canonical
[17:57] <pep> sorry
[17:58] <pwnguin> ive considered that
[17:58] <pep> pwnguin: they are free to charge whatever they want for them... jsut as you are free to create your own ubuntu-tshirts :)
[17:58] <pwnguin> but in a more general sense, you'd think there'd be more
[17:59] <pwnguin> american providers, that is
[17:59] <pep> yes, I suppose other people sell ubuntu tshirts
[17:59] <pep> try ebay...
[18:01] <pwnguin> i recall there being some sort of permission needed to use the logo
[18:03] <pep> haha no... Not a free logo, not that I know, anyway...
[18:04] <pwnguin> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[18:11] <pep> I will not read all this now, but imo, making a t-shirt with "ubuntu" + logo on it should not be a problem... it would surprise me if it was, because it is not in canonical's interest... we made t-shirts for the belgium team for example... I was not directly involved in this though, so I can't give you ruther details on that
[18:11] <pep> but i can ask some people if you're not in a hurry...
[18:12] <pep> further*
[18:12] <pwnguin> im not, just thinking out loud mostly
[18:12] <pep> ok
[18:13] <pwnguin> you'd think canonical would at least realize the price is ridiculus for the US
[18:13] <pep> It is prety high...
[18:13] <pep> +t
[18:16] <pep> some of the profit of these canonical t-shirts go to ubuntu as far as I remember though..
[18:16] <pwnguin> im fine with canonical selling
[18:16] <pwnguin> i mean, he donated 10mil to ubuntu
[18:16] <pep> but a lot of people have been making ubuntu t-shirts... don't hesitate ;)
[18:18] <pwnguin> im looking locally for prices
[18:18] <pep> I see
[18:18] <pwnguin> with today's falling dollar, that means cheaper exports! ;)
[18:19] <pwnguin> last time i looked it was gonna be like 25 bucks for a one off
[18:19] <pep> hehe :)
[18:20] <pwnguin> and that was a high quality shir
[18:20] <pwnguin> t
[18:21] <pep> if you're from the usa, you might want to ask in #ubuntu-us
[18:21] <pep> they will hopefully direct you your local ubuntu team...
[18:21] <pwnguin> yea
[18:21] <pwnguin> us locos are almost universally stupid
[18:22] <pep> why that?
[18:22] <pwnguin> well, there's already a high prevailance of LUGs in the US
[18:22] <pwnguin> and we dont need ubuntu translated
[18:22] <pep> yes
[18:23] <pep> I see your point..
[18:23] <pep> but I don't think that having local ubuntu comunities is bad...
[18:24] <pwnguin> the other thing to remember is that the US is huge
[18:24] <pwnguin> not quite the size of blgium ;)
[18:24] <pep> hehe, sure :)
[18:24] <pep> we only have one loco
[18:24] <pep> but we have three official languages
[18:24] <pep> which can be quite tricky sometimes believe me ;)
[18:25] <pwnguin> but the area of people it draws is smaller
[18:25] <pwnguin> denser
[18:26] <pwnguin> the guy who started the ubuntu-kansas loco lives like two hours away from everybody
[18:26] <pwnguin> by excessive american driving standards
[18:26]  * MenZa pokes pep's government.
[18:27] <pep> which government?
[18:27] <pep> :p
[18:29] <MenZa> XD
[18:43] <boredandblogging> pwnguin: its been discussed many times, LoCos aren't meant to replace LUGs
[18:44] <boredandblogging> there are plenty of people who come out to LoCo events, but have no interest in LUGs
[18:46] <boredandblogging> and depends on your LUG, if the LUG is lazy and doesn't do much, the enthusiasm of a LoCo can be really good
[18:55] <pwnguin> boredandblogging: the problem is, for a place like kansas, you can't negotiate a meeting point acceptable to most
[18:56] <pwnguin> i think theres a reason #ubuntu-chicago is successful
[18:57] <pwnguin> while ubuntu-ks is gone nowhere fast: a good leader and a dense population
[18:57] <boredandblogging> very true
[18:57] <boredandblogging> but then plans should be made a couple months in advance
[18:57] <boredandblogging> so everyone can plan for it
[18:57] <pwnguin> i dont think it matters
[18:57] <pwnguin> im not driving to witchita. ever.
[18:57] <pwnguin> wichita, evne
[18:57] <boredandblogging> well, thats not really the LoCos problem then
[18:59] <pwnguin> i'd call a threat to existence a problem
[18:59] <boredandblogging> if there is no dense population, meetings need to be moved around and people will have to drive
[19:00] <pwnguin> there are dense populations, they're just not close by any stretch
[19:00] <pwnguin> theres kansas city, topeka, lawrence, manhattan and wichita
[19:01] <pwnguin> manhattan, lawrence, wichita(I think) and kansas city have functioning LUGs
[19:03] <boredandblogging> so if the LoCo moved around meetings between those cities, it would still be too far for people?
[19:04] <pwnguin> it depends on your definition of meeting
[19:04] <pwnguin> if all the kc people show up to kc meetings, and the wichita people to wichita, then they might show up
[19:05] <pwnguin> but dont expect anyone to take up a 4 hour drive in the name of ubuntu
[19:05] <boredandblogging> right, maybe make it a bigger event, like a couple presentations, mini-installfest, and then everyone goes out to eat and drink
[19:05] <pwnguin> the thing is
[19:05] <pwnguin> the lugs already do this
[19:06] <boredandblogging> most do, but you can give it more of an Ubuntu flair
[19:06] <pwnguin> and why bother with the hierarchial structure, when the leader will only show in one place?
[19:06] <boredandblogging> get some t-shirts made up
[19:06] <boredandblogging> thats a different problem
[19:07] <pwnguin> i guess i dont understand the difference between a loco and ubuntu users attending lugs
[19:07] <boredandblogging> LoCos are meant to promote Ubuntu
[19:08] <boredandblogging> the LUGs are really specific
[19:08] <boredandblogging> s/are/aren't
[19:08] <pwnguin> im not sure I care about that
[19:08] <pwnguin> being specific to ubuntu, i mean.
[19:09] <boredandblogging> kinda funny when we are in an ubuntu marketing channel :-)
[19:10] <pwnguin> i guess what im saying is, our lugs don't need official recognition as Loco Teams
[19:11] <pwnguin> for example, the kansas state lug hands out ubuntu CDs at meetings and recruiting events, and we have a display in the campus computer store
[19:11] <boredandblogging> the LUGs don't have to be LoCo Teams, it can be separate, but work with LoCos
[19:11] <boredandblogging> thats good
[19:11] <boredandblogging> arrgh, but work with LUGs
[19:12] <pwnguin> many of the guys admin gentoo or redhat on campus, and use ubuntu on laptops
[19:12] <pwnguin> what we dont do is state wide outreach
[19:13] <pwnguin> we host weekly lunch meetings and lan parties every six months, irc and a mailing list
[19:13] <boredandblogging> sounds like the LUG is doing a good job
[19:14] <pwnguin> we held an installfest once but the truth is, the only people who show up are the guys who have an ancient thinkpad where we'd need hours to set up pxe
[19:14] <pwnguin> no usb boot, no cd drive
[19:14] <pwnguin> no floppy
[19:14] <boredandblogging> right
[19:15] <boredandblogging> but once you set up a pxe, it will be much easier in the future to add new releases
[19:15] <boredandblogging> the up front cost is big
[19:15] <pwnguin> part of the problem of course is that the skill needed to set that up likes gentoo better
[19:16] <pwnguin> and hates users
[19:17] <boredandblogging> lol
[19:17] <pwnguin> the kc lug hosts a popular mailing list, an irc channel, holds two meetings a month and hands out cds (sometimes ubuntu) at trade shows
[19:19] <pwnguin> thats what a LoCo has to compete with
[19:22] <boredandblogging> not compete, help them do those things, do presentations at the meetings geared towards Ubuntu
[19:24] <pwnguin> I mean, next meeting I plan to show off the ume stuff
[19:24] <pwnguin> i haven't discussed it with any loco, I just find it interesting
[19:25] <pwnguin> aka "netbook"
[19:27] <boredandblogging> awesome!
[19:27] <pwnguin> before i left manhattan, i showed off some of the tablet features in ubuntu
[19:27] <pwnguin> (needs work)
[19:30] <pwnguin> i might also do a demo of colorfilter
[19:31] <boredandblogging> nice
[19:31] <pwnguin> unfortunately, nobody quite gets colorfilter
[19:32] <pwnguin> it serves two purposes:
[19:32] <pwnguin> a) color remapping for the colorblind
[19:32] <pwnguin> b) color filtering for normal sighted so you can see whether your presentation makes sense
[19:33] <pwnguin> be it app, slideshow, webpage, etc
[19:33] <pwnguin> anyways
[19:33] <pwnguin> food for thought: the usteams project is doing it wrong
[19:45] <Flannel> pwnguin: How so
[19:48] <pwnguin> Flannel: covering the 50 biggest cities might be a more feasible / productive goal than the 50 states
[19:49] <Flannel> pwnguin: Except (as has already been mentioned) LoCos aren't LUGs, they serve a different purpose
[19:50] <pwnguin> what is the purpose of a lug that is different?
[19:50] <Flannel> pwnguin: LUGs are for people to hang out, etc, etc.  That's not the LoCos primary purpose
[19:52] <Flannel> LoCos are designed for localized support, advocacy, and translation.  in the US, the translation bit goes away, so we're left with advocacy and local support
[19:52] <pwnguin> would it be appropriate to move this conversation to #ubuntu-us?
[19:53] <Flannel> pwnguin: Sure
[20:08] <jbotscharow> I was wondering if someone here could answer a couple of quick newbie questions
[20:10] <jbotscharow> when I log on to IRC I get a message like UWN #95 in progress
[20:10] <jbotscharow> What is UWN?
[20:28] <johnc4510> jbotscharow: it's the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter, and the msg you see is the topic for this channel
[20:28] <jbotscharow> ok ty
[20:29] <jbotscharow> one more stupid noobie question LOL
[20:29] <johnc4510> latest issue here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue94
[20:29] <johnc4510> ok, i'll try
[20:30] <jbotscharow> a couple of messages on the mailing list used the word "troll" oe some variation of that
[20:30] <jbotscharow> I know what a troll is in mythologu
[20:30] <jbotscharow> what does it mean here?
[20:30] <pep> hi
[20:30] <pep> jbotscharow: you should look it up in wikipedia ;)
[20:30] <jbotscharow> not a compliment I assume
[20:30] <johnc4510> yep, a troll is someone who joins a channel with the intent to cause mischief
[20:31] <pep> a troll is more a subject than a person usually...
[20:31] <jbotscharow> ok, thanks
[20:32] <johnc4510> np
[20:32] <jbotscharow> hi to you pep
[20:33] <jbotscharow> sorry was not intentionally being rude
[20:33] <pep> about? :)
[20:33] <pep> not saying hii directly?
[20:33] <jbotscharow> yes
[20:33] <jbotscharow> I'm a slow typist
[20:33] <pep> it is not a problem I assure you! On IRC it is common not to directly reply
[20:34] <pep> generally the writer assumes people saw it
[20:34] <jbotscharow> this is all rather new to me so I appreciate the info
[20:35] <Flannel> jbotscharow: some sound advice for you: don't go to #ubuntu
[20:36] <Flannel> If you need support (usually done in #ubuntu), ask in #ubuntu-classroom
[20:36] <pep> about the troll... hence the expression"feeding the troll" or "trolling" as it was used on the list, which means continuing or bringing up again a discussion and/or subject that has the carachteristics of a troll... but you should look up the exact definition of a troll in wikipedia...
[20:38] <jbotscharow> thanks Flannel
[20:38] <jbotscharow> pep: I will take your advice as well ty
[20:39] <jbotscharow> given my newbieness, i think i'll stick to this room only for now
[20:47] <Mike_Feravolo> hello
[20:47] <jbotscharow> hey Mike, how's things>
[20:48] <Mike_Feravolo> kk
[20:49] <Mike_Feravolo> It looks like there has been interest in ubuntu marketing, due to the traffic on the list
[20:49] <jbotscharow> i think it will die down now
[20:49] <pep> I wouldn't consider the raise of traffic on the list to a particular raise in interest...
[20:49] <pep> s/to/as
[20:49] <Mike_Feravolo> I have to admitt that I skipped some of the messages for obvoius reasons
[20:50] <jbotscharow> that discussion has moved to a new list
[20:50] <Mike_Feravolo> which is
[20:51] <Mike_Feravolo> a lanuchpad list ?
[20:51] <jbotscharow> pep: pls translate s/to/as  newbieness
[20:51] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: All the proper marketing material is still on the marketing ist
[20:51] <Flannel> jbotscharow: pls is please
[20:52] <Flannel> oh, wait.  s/to/as/ means substitute "to" to "as"
[20:52] <pep> search for  to  and replace with  as
[20:52] <Flannel> Its from perl/sed
[20:52] <pep> yeah
[20:52] <pwnguin> i like how regular expressions are more universal than english =(
[20:53] <pep> sorry, I am very used to using this shortcut, it is not so good I admit :)
[20:53] <jbotscharow> ok
[20:53] <jbotscharow> it's not you, it's me
[20:53] <jbotscharow> I am not a programmer
[20:54] <pwnguin> well, regular expressions aren't exactly readable to programmers either
[20:54] <jbotscharow> so i will need help with translations
[20:55] <jbotscharow> I have a general idea of what regular expression are in logic - is that what you mean?
[20:55] <Mike_Feravolo> jbotsharow - are you new to Ubuntu ?
[20:55] <jbotscharow> yeag
[20:55] <jbotscharow> 2 months
[20:56] <pwnguin> a regular expression is a class of language. the programming languages perl and sed expands this to do manipulation on strings.
[20:56] <Mike_Feravolo> what were you using before, another Linux , Windows . Mac ?
[20:56] <jbotscharow> but been a marketer since I was 12 when i had a peper route
[20:56] <Mike_Feravolo> good someone who know how to sell
[20:57] <jbotscharow> used Windows for years last version XP media
[20:57] <Mike_Feravolo> something they don't teach in engineering school
[20:58] <pwnguin> does ubuntu need closers?
[20:58] <Mike_Feravolo> so you decided to give microsoft the boot
[20:58] <jbotscharow> yes, and i get very passionate about it, in case no one noticed
[20:58] <pep> jbotscharow: nobody critizised that :)
[20:59] <jbotscharow> some people i think did
[20:59] <pep> mhh no..
[20:59] <jbotscharow> but i'll live
[20:59] <pep> it is the way, the method, that is questionable
[21:00] <Mike_Feravolo> are people still snarling about some of the comments on the mail list ?
[21:00] <Mike_Feravolo> bfd
[21:00] <jbotscharow> pep: pls explain so i don't do it again
[21:01] <pep> I am just explaining why people reacted as they did, so that john understands why there was an uprise
[21:01] <Mike_Feravolo> i don't know I run a business, I like ubuntu, I have to sell, i would like to help sell ubuntu.
[21:02] <Mike_Feravolo> These are simple concepts and people need to be objective and try not to piss others off
[21:02] <Mike_Feravolo> forgive and forget and move on
[21:02] <pep> it is not at all, what you are doing that is argued about, it is that you came in without much looking around you, the way these kind of communities we are in work,..
[21:03] <pep> oh, I wont argue about past things
[21:03] <Mike_Feravolo> on the flip side everyone should cut a new guy a little slack
[21:04] <pep> sure, and there is no problem with new ideas and initiative :)
[21:04] <jbotscharow> if someone had just politely  explained what i was doing wrong i would have gladly accomoadated
[21:04] <pep> yes
[21:04] <pep> that was the error
[21:04] <pep> I understand jbotscharow
[21:04] <Mike_Feravolo> hey i am an engineer by trade and had to learn how to sell the hard way and with my own money
[21:05] <Mike_Feravolo> it might help the group to have some real sales people
[21:05] <pep> of course
[21:05] <pwnguin> how are you gonna sell Ubuntu?
[21:05] <jbotscharow> to be honest with all of you, some of the comments really hurt
[21:05] <pwnguin> its in the founding statement that it's free of charge
[21:05] <jbotscharow> i tried to not retaliate
[21:06] <Mike_Feravolo> first we need to know what we got already
[21:06] <Mike_Feravolo> i can try to contact the local groups and give them a wiki page to post links to maketing stuff
[21:07] <Mike_Feravolo> not the prettiest thing but a way to collect data
[21:07] <pep> to be honest john, several people, believe me, were tempted to take this to the Ubuntu Community Council... but I will not argue about this, and really don't want to get into this tonigh.
[21:07] <pep> +t
[21:08] <jbotscharow> ok
[21:08]  * pwnguin doesn't follow ubuntu-marketing often
[21:08] <pwnguin> just what happened?
[21:10] <jbotscharow> pwnguin: selling does not necessarily mean a financial transaction
[21:10] <pep> pwnguin: john came with a lot of very good intentions... but without much inside Ubuntu knowledge... this created conflicts, as many people were offended by the evolution of discussion (not blaming him!) and somebody should have stopped this before it got a little too far...
[21:11] <Mike_Feravolo> Excuse me people, but if you are afraid to use the word sell then what are you doing on a martketing team ?
[21:11] <pep> now there has been a new group created on Launchpad the "ubuntu core marketing group"
[21:13] <jbotscharow> to get back to the discussion about selling, pls
[21:13] <Mike_Feravolo> thank you
[21:13] <pwnguin> to me sell means offering for money. please tell me the new definition
[21:13] <jbotscharow> not alwats
[21:13] <jbotscharow> always
[21:13] <Mike_Feravolo> selling is getting someone to do something different, it has nothing to do with money
[21:14] <pwnguin> wow
[21:14] <jbotscharow> for instance, when you propose marriage, you are selling yourself
[21:14] <jbotscharow> when you ask your father to let you use the car, you are selling
[21:15] <Mike_Feravolo> How about getting or keeping a job
[21:15] <jbotscharow> when your kids ask to stay up past their nornmal bed time, they have better sell
[21:15] <pwnguin> well im not going to argue semantics
[21:15] <jbotscharow> LOL
[21:15] <Mike_Feravolo> kk\
[21:15] <jbotscharow> its more than semantics
[21:16] <jbotscharow> marketing is selling
[21:16] <pwnguin> if i may, marketing is advertising
[21:16] <jbotscharow> its a philosophical outlook on marketing
[21:16] <Mike_Feravolo> another thing telling people that something is free often makes them think you are trying to get over on them
[21:16] <jbotscharow> advertising is a form of marketing
[21:16] <pep> marketing is not only advertising pwnguin
[21:16] <jbotscharow> and yes, advertising is selling
[21:17] <pwnguin> pep: so what else does the marketing team do?
[21:17] <pep> it is everything relatind the product to the consumer imo...
[21:17] <pep> putting the product on the market... whatever that includes (maing it an image, selling it, setting prices, advertising, etc...)
[21:17] <pep> making*
[21:18] <pep> but basically it's aim is to make the product sell I suppose, yes...
[21:18] <Mike_Feravolo> john, just so you know software freedom includes the right to charge money for it and freedom isn't free
[21:18] <jbotscharow> you cannot make a product sell, you have to sell the product
[21:19] <pwnguin> Mike_Feravolo: well you're painting with a bit of a broad stroke, but yes.
[21:19] <pwnguin> still, at the core of Ubuntu's Promise is that it will remain free
[21:19] <pep> free of charge yes
[21:19] <pep> that does not exclude anything...
[21:19] <Mike_Feravolo> i am not just talking about ubuntu, i am talking about free software
[21:20] <jbotscharow> i don't have a problem with it being free - in both senses of the word
[21:20] <Mike_Feravolo> ubuntu is a trademark that is owned by a corportion in the uk
[21:20] <jbotscharow> ib fact, i consider that a plus
[21:21] <jbotscharow> but just becuz it's free of charge does not mean it will sell itself no matter how good it is
[21:21] <Mike_Feravolo> however from the standpoint of a USB Key carrying member of the Free Software Fondation, Ubuntu is okay
[21:22] <jbotscharow> nothing really sells itself. it may appear so, but that is actually the result of very good marketing
[21:22] <pwnguin> sorry to stir up this conversation. i just saw someone decide that ubuntu needed people who can sell things; i didnt realize it was a code word for advertising
[21:22] <Mike_Feravolo> i agree and passing out live cd's to non-techincal people isn't going to sell it either
[21:23] <Mike_Feravolo> words mean different things to different people, i think we all can agree on that
[21:23] <jbotscharow> agreed
[21:24] <Mike_Feravolo> which is why marketing on a gobal basis is quite a challange
[21:24] <jbotscharow> amd that is something that perhaps we need to establish
[21:24] <pwnguin> so what sorts of marketing activities does the team engage in/
[21:24] <pwnguin> ?
[21:24] <jbotscharow> some basic defintions for works like marketing, selling and advertising
[21:25] <Mike_Feravolo> i really think that we have a lot of good stuff, but there isn't an easy way to share it
[21:25] <Mike_Feravolo> that should be first
[21:25] <pwnguin> by stuff you mean "promotional materials"?
[21:25] <Mike_Feravolo> yes
[21:25] <pwnguin> ok
[21:25] <pep> Mike_Feravolo: we are working on that.. spreadubuntu project
[21:26] <jbotscharow> i agree
[21:26] <jbotscharow> we need to find all the stuff all over ubuntu
[21:26] <Mike_Feravolo> i haven't looked at spreadubuntu today, but the last thing it took me to the ubuntu main page
[21:26] <jbotscharow> and set up a page with links to all of  it
[21:26] <jbotscharow> catalog it
[21:26] <jbotscharow> organize it
[21:26] <pep> Mike_Feravolo: yes, taht's just a dns
[21:26] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: a bit of work before its actually live
[21:27] <pep> that's*
[21:27] <Mike_Feravolo> cool
[21:27] <jbotscharow> the spreadubuntu site is in the works
[21:27] <Mike_Feravolo> spreadbubuntu is easy to remember even if it's a bit fedora-ish
[21:28] <pep> it's a bit firefox-ish ...
[21:28] <Mike_Feravolo> but may thats a good thing
[21:28] <pep> ;)
[21:28] <Mike_Feravolo> that too
[21:28] <jbotscharow> i have a qyestuin
[21:28] <Mike_Feravolo> kk
[21:28] <pep> don't ask to ask :)
[21:28] <pep> one of the IRC rules
[21:28] <pep> well
[21:28] <pep> unwritten rules ;)
[21:28] <jbotscharow> how about we all work together on gathering and cataloging all the marketing materials
[21:28] <jbotscharow> ok
[21:29] <pwnguin> just ask
[21:29] <Mike_Feravolo> a wiki site
[21:29] <pwnguin> wikis are terrible for art
[21:29] <jbotscharow> that would work
[21:29] <Mike_Feravolo> cms's aren't any better
[21:29] <pwnguin> something like a cross between gallery and pligg might be more suitable
[21:30] <Mike_Feravolo> wiki are easly editable, i started using them a lot for my own work
[21:30] <Flannel> pwnguin, jbotscharow, the previous marketing team has already done almost all of the planning needed to implement it.
[21:30] <jbotscharow> can we set up a gallery on ubuntu>
[21:31] <pwnguin> Flannel: once it goes live it'd be nice to see if it's suitable making the artwork team more accessible
[21:31] <Mike_Feravolo> i was thinking if the loco's are already hosting material somewhere, it might just be easier to link to it
[21:31] <Mike_Feravolo> which is why a thought of wiki vs gallery
[21:32] <Flannel> pwnguin: Aye.  Artwork team collaboration is a key part of it as well
[21:32] <pwnguin> excellent
[21:32] <Mike_Feravolo> artwork is key to marketing, people like pictures
[21:32] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: I *believe* all the content will be mirrored from a bzr branch, or at least, thats what I understand the plan to have been.
[21:32] <jbotscharow> Flannel: where is this previous planning?
[21:33] <pwnguin> mailing list archives?
[21:33] <Flannel> jbotscharow: In the marketing team wiki page, and a few others.  A lot of the pages were deleted, but I'll be undeleting them later today once I track them all down (better to do a whole batch of reverts)
[21:34] <pep> yes
[21:34] <pep> flannel is working on undeleting a lot of things and cetralizing apst work that was considered and then given up...
[21:34] <jbotscharow> cool
[21:35] <pep> just wait a week or two, and this will have a totally different aspect
[21:35] <jbotscharow> from what i've seen of the materials list on the wiki a lot of stuff has not been added
[21:35] <pwnguin> does the marketing team not do blueprints?
[21:35] <jbotscharow> stuff from the locos
[21:36] <jbotscharow> Flannel: I'd like to help with the organizing
[21:37] <Flannel> jbotscharow: Aye, a few others would too.  I'm working hard today to peel away all the history and figure out where we stand currently with it.
[21:39] <jbotscharow> just let me know what you need done that i can do - i can do simple wiki stuff. whenever you are ready for my help
[21:39] <jbotscharow> I am a good writer :-) it's what i do best
[21:40] <jbotscharow> and pretty good at organziing
[21:41] <Mike_Feravolo> I have contacts in the business community in the Orlando Florida Area and attend a lot of chamber commerce and business networking groups
[21:42] <Mike_Feravolo> which means that I can get things to the people in my local city
[21:42] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: Are you a part of the Florida LoCo?
[21:42] <Mike_Feravolo> yes
[21:42] <Mike_Feravolo> Flannel are you here in the state
[21:42] <jbotscharow> and I belong to the Arkansas Loco
[21:43] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: No, I'm California
[21:44] <jbotscharow> when did CA secede from the union? LOL Teasing you, Flannel
[21:44] <Mike_Feravolo> FLorida did once
[21:44] <jbotscharow> yep, so did AR
[21:45] <jbotscharow> I thot Flannel had misread ur question, mike, but it appears it was me who misread it
[21:46] <jbotscharow> I saw an s at the end of state
[21:46] <Mike_Feravolo> john what made you decide on ubuntu ?
[21:46] <jbotscharow> the guy who owns my web hosting company uses it and recommeneded it
[21:47] <jbotscharow> BTW Flannel he's in CA
[21:47] <Mike_Feravolo> it's a can't be hard to get people to dump windows
[21:47] <Mike_Feravolo> wow this is really bad ^^^^^^ english here
[21:47] <jbotscharow> I had tried mandrake a few years ago but cud not really get it work right
[21:48] <Mike_Feravolo> i mean that it is hard to get people away from windows
[21:48] <jbotscharow> i understood what u meant. np
[21:48] <Mike_Feravolo> ubuntu is one of the better live distros
[21:49] <Mike_Feravolo> one of things that really scare the COC type people are the live cd's
[21:49] <Mike_Feravolo> which is why something on people that sells ubuntu is better then giving away disks
[21:49] <jbotscharow> Mike: yest it is very hard but not impossiblw
[21:50] <Mike_Feravolo> on paper
[21:50] <Mike_Feravolo> enginer i cant spell it and i are one
[21:50] <Flannel> COC in this context being....?
[21:50] <Mike_Feravolo> Chamber of Commerce
[21:51] <Mike_Feravolo> business owners, sales people along with some corporate people
[21:51] <jbotscharow> we definitely have a language problem on this team. ROFL
[21:52] <Mike_Feravolo> i am new to chatting
[21:52] <jbotscharow> we have those who speak marketing and we have those who speak developer
[21:52] <Mike_Feravolo> i am not new to computer science
[21:52] <jbotscharow> no wonder some people think I troll
[21:52] <Mike_Feravolo> i guess some people can't take a joke
[21:53] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: CoC in Ubuntu context usually means Code of Conduct
[21:53] <Mike_Feravolo> i see the confusion
[21:53] <pep> an CC - community counsil
[21:53] <pep> and*
[21:54] <jbotscharow> a perfect example of what I mean: I knew what Mike meant and never thot of the Code
[21:54] <Mike_Feravolo> Sometime I forget Ubuntu is software
[21:54] <jbotscharow> we maybe should appoint a team translator
[21:55] <pep> no, I think it is not necessary :)
[21:56] <Mike_Feravolo> Ubuntu is a good operating system,  which is why I like it
[21:56] <pep> but these examples explain recent "misunderstandings" on the list I think ;)
[21:56] <jbotscharow> probably not, but all kidding aside, I do think there definitely is some communication issues-different perspectives
[21:57] <jbotscharow> like those who have a strong marketing but weak developer/Ubuntu background
[21:57] <Mike_Feravolo> Politics just gets in the way, just be nice to others and keep the flamage down to . . . like none
[21:57] <jbotscharow> and those with strong Ubuntu/dev background and weak marketing backgrond
[21:58] <Mike_Feravolo> yes an engineering degree doesn't leave much time for buiness classes
[21:59] <jbotscharow> I know, Mike. My college career included a freshman year in Engineering before switching to social sciense
[21:59] <Mike_Feravolo> however if you own a business, you are in sales and it dosen't matter what that business is.
[21:59] <jbotscharow> absolutely
[21:59] <pep> Mike_Feravolo: I actually study a belgian diploma.. managment engineer... lots of maths/physics, etc... engineering... and also lots of economy, marketing, law courses, etc.. managment..
[22:00] <pep> yes, it is hard to get oth aspects god
[22:00] <pep> good
[22:00] <pep> both
[22:00] <pep> oh sorry
[22:00] <pep> i type too fast
[22:00] <Mike_Feravolo> pep that's good, most colleges in the states don't give you that opporuntity
[22:01] <Mike_Feravolo> at least not back in the eighties
[22:01] <pep> here in belgium there are 2 main schools that do this special diploma
[22:02] <jbotscharow> my graduate school was like pep's college
[22:02] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: theres a number of colleges here that have similar degrees
[22:03] <pep> it is in 5 years here
[22:03] <jbotscharow> I studied antho, philosophy, theology, Polish language, history
[22:03] <jbotscharow> and theology
[22:03] <pep> already said :)
[22:03] <jbotscharow> better system there than here
[22:04] <pep> and I have the feeling you particularly liked theology ;)
[22:04] <jbotscharow> oops
[22:04] <jbotscharow> yesm was working on doctorate when i quit to save my marriage but it was not worth saving, no marriage, no degree
[22:05] <Mike_Feravolo> I don't know outside of programming I studied as little as possiable and made the dean's list
[22:05] <jbotscharow> but now am happily married to new wife for 16 years
[22:05] <Mike_Feravolo> The dean of students that is
[22:06] <Mike_Feravolo> any way all joking aside, i think we are heading in the right direction
[22:06] <jbotscharow> brb
[22:08] <jbotscharow> back
[22:09] <jbotscharow> an etiquette question, I know all caps is bad manners. what is code for emphazing? *this?*
[22:11] <Mike_Feravolo> i don't know
[22:12] <jbotscharow> pep: Pierre, you still here?
[22:13] <pep> yes jbotscharow
[22:13] <pep> you mean bold and underlined in IRC?
[22:14] <pep> the trigger is % followed by a letter
[22:14] <jbotscharow> yes
[22:14] <Mike_Feravolo> %xxx
[22:14] <pep>  % + C +number = color, % + B = bold, % + U = underlined
[22:14] <Mike_Feravolo> %b cool
[22:14] <pep> capital B
[22:14] <Mike_Feravolo> please excuse this
[22:14] <jbotscharow> got it. ty
[22:15] <Mike_Feravolo> %B Test
[22:15] <Mike_Feravolo> %B Test %B
[22:15] <jbotscharow> %BTest
[22:15] <Mike_Feravolo> i don't see it on my end does anyone else ?
[22:16] <pep>  no
[22:16] <jbotscharow> not me either
[22:16] <pep> but you've got to close it ...
[22:16] <pep>   and
[22:16] <pep>  % B and % B
[22:16] <Mike_Feravolo> %BLike this%B
[22:16] <pep> except colors you don't need to close
[22:16] <pep> mhh
[22:16] <pep> how come I don't see it
[22:16] <pep> you see my bold writing?
[22:16] <jbotscharow> %BLike this?%B
[22:16] <pep>  hi
[22:16] <Mike_Feravolo> must be my lane xchat client
[22:16] <pep> sorry
[22:17] <pep> must be my IRC client
[22:17] <pep> I am sorry
[22:17] <pep> my bad
[22:17] <Mike_Feravolo> i am running gnewsense on this machince
[22:17] <pep> I thought these were IRC commands, been using this client for too long
[22:17] <Mike_Feravolo> so much for being totaly free
[22:17] <pep> but you do see mine no?
[22:17] <Mike_Feravolo> yes it did
[22:17] <pep> well Mike_Feravolo, my client is free too, I use Konversation
[22:18] <pep> now in xchat it is probably different
[22:18] <jbotscharow> ahhhh
[22:18] <pep> maybe ask in #xchat
[22:18] <jbotscharow> I use pidgin
[22:18] <jbotscharow> maybe there is a plug in or a pref setting
[22:19] <jbotscharow> I need to go do some family stuff
[22:19] <pep> probalby you'll find it in the preferences
[22:19] <Mike_Feravolo> I guess I don't really need to do that
[22:19] <pep> I need to go get some sleep...
[22:19] <Mike_Feravolo> i got to get ready to got out too
[22:19] <jbotscharow> good night Pierre and ty for all the help
[22:19] <Mike_Feravolo> later
[22:20] <jbotscharow> ok
[22:20] <jbotscharow> ttyl
[23:38] <Flannel> jbotscharow: A project like that is more code than anything else, it's fairly straightforward
[23:40] <jbotscharow> can you do it>
[23:42] <Flannel> I've no idea re: firefox stuff.  Are you talking about this toolbar? https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4684
[23:43] <jbotscharow> Flannel: I'm talking on pm with Bruno about this. care to join us>
[23:44] <Flannel> We can't do three person queries.  It'd have to be a room.  And this one probably will work, so he could just join here
[23:45] <jbotscharow> ok
[23:45] <bbyever> hello
[23:45] <jbotscharow> don't go away
[23:45] <jbotscharow> he's here
[23:45] <Flannel> Howdy bbyever
[23:45] <bbyever> hi
[23:45] <Flannel> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4684 looks like the plugin you're talking about
[23:46] <jbotscharow> doing one conversation is a lot easier for me than two LOL
[23:46] <Flannel> and it looks like its packaged: http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/firefox-ubuntu-it-menu
[23:46] <bbyever> yep i've just installed it through synaptic
[23:46] <jbotscharow> ok
[23:47] <jbotscharow> so what now? what's the next step?
[23:47] <Flannel> firefox plugins, from what I understand, are mostly if not all, text based.  So you should be able to open it up and edit away.
[23:47] <bbyever> apt-get source and edit
[23:47] <Flannel> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/firefox-extensions/ubuntu-it-menu.ubuntu is the bzr repo
[23:48] <Flannel> I dont think you'd need to apt-get the source, since I believe its just a bunch of xml files
[23:48] <Flannel> Although, I've really never dabbled in FF extensions
[23:50] <bbyever> i dont really know how to get the code through lp....
[23:51] <jbotscharow> ok, apt-get source  - how do i specify the specific package i want
[23:51] <bbyever> apt-get source firefox-ubuntu-it-menu
[23:52] <jbotscharow> I am really new to FOSS so you have to treat me like a dummy, I won't be offended
[23:52] <Flannel> The code is all in your .mozilla directory
[23:52] <Flannel> well, the plugins/extensions/whatever therein
[23:53] <jbotscharow> that leads me to ask another dummy question
[23:54] <jbotscharow> in my file manager those files don't show - the ones that start with a period. how do i get them to show
[23:54] <Flannel> jbotscharow: ctrl-H or view > show hidden files
[23:54] <jbotscharow> ok
[23:54] <Flannel> bbyever: Actually, looks like extensions are 'compiled' in some sense of the term
[23:54] <Flannel> So yeah, sudo apt-get source ubuntu-it-menu
[23:55] <Flannel> and then sudo apt-get build-deps ubuntu-it-menu
[23:55] <Flannel> will get you your build depends (if there are any)
[23:55] <bbyever> build-deps says invalid operation
[23:55] <jbotscharow> this is getting scarier by the minute LOL
[23:56] <bbyever> they're all in the debian/control though...
[23:56] <Flannel> bbyever: sorry, build-dep
[23:58] <jbotscharow> so, I edit the code to reflect the new links very carefully
[23:58] <jbotscharow> then sanve it
[23:59] <jbotscharow> what do I do if there are deps?
[23:59] <Flannel> jbotscharow: sudo apt-get build-dep ubuntu-it-menu
[23:59] <bbyever> sorry, power went out
[23:59] <Flannel> bbyever: its build-dep not build-deps
[23:59] <bbyever> ok
[23:59] <jbotscharow> ain't that fun!


[15:02] <Tm_M> hi kids
[15:07]  * jussi01 salutes Tm_M
[19:24] <AlanBell> part
[21:42] <jpds> @login
[23:40] <kjoller> Hi all. I just realised that I am eligable for an Ubuntu member IRC cloak. Can anyone here help me?
[23:40] <jpds> Sure.
[23:41] <kjoller> jpds: Anything I need to do other than having a registered nick?
[23:41] <jpds> kjoller: Make sure that you've set up your nick as per http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[23:44] <kjoller> jpds: It should be done
[23:44] <kjoller> And i am a bit scared that hidemail was not set to on :)
[23:45] <jpds> ;)
[23:45] <jpds> kjoller: Can you send the output of /msg NickServ info - to me in private?
[23:46] <jpds> Pici, nalioth, elky, jussi01, tsimpson, topyli: A clock for kjoller please.
[23:48] <niko> missed on the list :p
[23:48] <niko> ah no
[23:48] <niko> missread
[23:48] <niko> jpds: here it's 00:46:09
[23:49] <niko> nhandler: o/
[23:49] <jpds> Well, clock, cloak, whatever.
[23:49] <jpds> niko: Staff never sleep.
[23:49] <jpds> niko: ADMIT IT!
[23:49] <niko> jpds: my evil side will wake up soon
[23:51] <kjoller> :D


[05:35] <CarlFK> odrod, arm, running xenail.  how can I apt-get source from a ppa?
[05:41] <CarlFK> (which doesn't have arm builds)
[05:47] <CarlFK> oh never mind. the version I want is already in  ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports
[10:53] <estan> hi. i'd like to have dbgsym packages activated for a PPA of mine (https://launchpad.net/~elvstone/+archive/ubuntu/vtk7). is that possible?
[10:54] <cjwatson> estan: You can do it yourself.  Go to "Change details" and check "Build debug symbols" and probably also "Publish debug symbols".
[10:56] <estan> cjwatson: aha, thanks!
[10:57] <estan> cjwatson: do you know if i need to do something else for it to trigger building of the debug symbols? (or is the only way to upload a new source version of the packages?)
[11:01] <cjwatson> estan: If you have existing failed builds you can retry them; otherwise you need a fresh source upload.
[11:56] <estan> cjwatson: alright. thanks.
[13:15] <renatosilva> can someone please take a look? thanks https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/295629
[13:18] <cjwatson> renatosilva: done
[13:20] <renatosilva> cjwatson: thanks!
[13:26] <renatosilva> cjwatson: but there are two problems
[13:27] <renatosilva> one, this branch has deleted project in name still https://code.launchpad.net/~renatosilva/pidgin++/ircaway
[13:27] <renatosilva> it says lp:pidgin-ircaway, and cloning even works! but project was just deleted!
[13:27] <renatosilva> second, I cannot delete the branch
[13:27] <cjwatson> You should be more clear in your requests then!
[13:28] <renatosilva> "This branch cannot be deleted as it has     1     branch     sharing revisions.  " -- this branch is an old patch that is useless for all known galaxies
[13:28] <cjwatson> renatosilva: I've reactivated the projects.  Please delete the code branches and then let me know.
[13:28] <renatosilva> no!
[13:28] <renatosilva> omg
[13:28] <renatosilva> such a mess
[13:29] <renatosilva> I do want to delete these two useless projects
[13:29] <renatosilva> then I went for the above branch and noticed it references a deleted project
[13:29] <renatosilva> name should be pidgin++/ircaway not lp:pidgin-ircaway
[13:29] <cjwatson> Why does it matter if the old branches are still branchable?  Nothing will refer to them
[13:30] <renatosilva> this is first problem
[13:30] <renatosilva> why why why, one mess here, another there
[13:30] <cjwatson> renatosilva: You could unset the development focus on those projects.
[13:30] <cjwatson> I can't do that for you.
[13:30] <renatosilva> I assume you are pretty aware then why many people are leaving launchpad
[13:31] <renatosilva> but back to the problems, will try unset, this is for first problem or second?
[13:31] <renatosilva> ah sorry!
[13:31] <cjwatson> Look, I'm not interested in having a philosophical debate.
[13:31] <cjwatson> You can abuse me or ask me for help but not both.
[13:31] <renatosilva> bad habit of reading messages partially
[13:32] <renatosilva> "Please delete the code branches and then let me know." -- just read
[13:32] <renatosilva> well
[13:32] <cjwatson> Unsetting the development focus will stop those branches being lp:pidgin-ircaway and lp:pidgin-windev.
[13:32] <renatosilva> deleting  https://code.launchpad.net/~renatosilva/pidgin++/ircaway does not work regardless if the project exists, so no need to try
[13:33] <renatosilva> gives this message regardless "This branch cannot be deleted as it has     1     branch     sharing revisions.  "
[13:33] <cjwatson> Yes, you already said that.
[13:33] <cjwatson> Bazaar hosting has several of these kinds of problems; we learned from this when we put together Git hosting
[13:34] <renatosilva> unset the development focus on those projects -- what exactly this will do, fix first problem?
[13:34] <cjwatson> 14:32 <cjwatson> Unsetting the development focus will stop those branches being lp:pidgin-ircaway and lp:pidgin-windev.
[13:35]  * renatosilva trying...
[13:36] <renatosilva> cannot unset
[13:36] <renatosilva> it lists the series, that's all, need to pick one
[13:36] <cjwatson> What URL are you using?
[13:37] <renatosilva> https://launchpad.net/pidgin-windev/+edit
[13:37] <cjwatson> Use https://launchpad.net/pidgin-windev/+configure-code instead
[13:37] <cjwatson> Empty the text box under "Link to a Bazaar branch already in Launchpad", and press Update
[13:38] <cjwatson> Likewise for pidgin-ircaway
[13:40] <renatosilva> already empty for windev
[13:41] <cjwatson> The branch that's stacked on the former lp:pidgin-ircaway and preventing it being deleted is lp:~vlad-lesin/pidgin-ircaway/easy_build; you could contact that user and ask them to delete or unstack their branch (the latter being "bzr reconfigure --unstacked lp:~vlad-lesin/pidgin-ircaway/easy_build", though can probably only be done while the project is active), but it's probably not worth the effort
[13:41] <renatosilva> but first problem solved for ircaway :)
[13:41] <renatosilva> awesome!
[13:41] <cjwatson> it's empty now for windev; it wasn't before
[13:41] <renatosilva> I know that branch, asked him to delete
[13:41] <renatosilva> no response
[13:41] <renatosilva> asked him months ago a few times
[13:42] <renatosilva> what's interesting is
[13:42] <renatosilva> if I did not associate that ircaway branch with pidgin++, then now that you delete pidgin-ircaway project, this branch would be gone, correct?
[13:43] <cjwatson> no, we can only actually make projects inactive+invisible rather than full-scale deleteion
[13:43] <cjwatson> *deletion
[13:43] <renatosilva> ah wait, I can move it back to pidgin-ircaway, and when you re-delete, it will be gone, no?
[13:43] <renatosilva> well but I will not see the branch anywhere
[13:43] <cjwatson> it would be invisible, yes; although it would also be for most purposes invisible now, since its status is Merged
[13:44] <cjwatson> so now that it's no longer a focus branch for a project, it won't show up unless you look pretty hard for it
[13:44] <cjwatson> but you could indeed move it back to pidgin-ircaway if you like
[13:44] <renatosilva> how can I create a copy of this branch to put in pidgin++ but one that I can delete later (without stacked branches like vlad)?
[13:45] <renatosilva> selecting "any status" in filter is far from pretty hard :)
[13:45] <cjwatson> move it to something under pidgin-ircaway, and then "bzr push lp:~renatosilva/pidgin++/ircaway"
[13:45] <renatosilva> ok will do...
[13:45]  * renatosilva ...
[13:45] <cjwatson> "pretty hard" in this case doesn't mean "difficult", but anyway.
[13:50] <renatosilva> done, and I could delete it, awesome!!
[13:50] <renatosilva> cjwatson: now you can 'delete' both projects again, I guess
[13:57] <cjwatson> renatosilva: done
[13:58] <renatosilva> cjwatson: awesome, thanks
[13:59] <renatosilva> professional attitude despite the philosophical views :)
[14:00] <renatosilva> cjwatson: thanks for *actually* fixing the problems, good afternoon
[14:03] <renatosilva> thanks all
[17:01] <GyrosGeier> hi
[17:02] <GyrosGeier> is there a way to get mailing list archives in mbox format?
[17:02] <GyrosGeier> I'd like to reply to an older mail, quoting it and using a proper In-Reply-To: header
[17:04] <cjwatson> there is although it's a slightly weird one that involves us invoking sysadmins
[17:04] <cjwatson> you can ask a question on https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad for it
[17:06] <GyrosGeier> well, it's probably not worth the effort just to get proper threading of list mails
[17:06] <GyrosGeier> but I'm going to submit a question nonetheless, so it doesn't get lost
[17:07] <GyrosGeier> https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/158226 suggests that it's a reoccuring problem
[17:10] <cjwatson> that sort of thing is a little different at least in purpose
[17:11] <cjwatson> for a non-team-owner we'd probably want to extract just the message in question
[17:13] <GyrosGeier> mmh
[17:13] <GyrosGeier> as said, it's not important enough in this particular instance, but a generic solution would be nice
[17:14] <GyrosGeier> the most important bit for me is the Message-Id
[17:15] <GyrosGeier> mailman's mbox output is severely scrubbed, it just leaves From, To, Subject, In-Reply-To, References and Message-Id
[17:16] <GyrosGeier> that shouldn't be a problem from a data protection POV -- it'd also be okay to further obfuscate the non-list addresses
[17:19] <cjwatson> I would have to ask around
[18:04] <kyrofa> cjwatson, I appreciate your enabling s390x for me. However, my build just failed and I seem to have no log to investigate
[18:07] <kyrofa> cjwatson, does that have something to do with the arch?
[18:08] <dobey> kyrofa: usually means the builder crashed before creating logs
[18:09] <kyrofa> dobey, huh. It said it ran for 14 minutes
[18:09] <dobey> kyrofa: provide the link to the build :)
[18:10] <kyrofa> dobey, https://code.launchpad.net/~kyrofa/+snap/nextcloud/+build/1364
[18:12] <dobey> kyrofa: ok, maybe it just took a long while exploding before it created logs. i'm not too familiar with building snaps on lp yet, but when this happens in PPAs, it typically means something went wrong on the builder before the logs were being created
[18:13] <kyrofa> dobey, alright thanks for taking a look. I've requested another build so we'll see what happens. Indeed, the other builders work like that, but they don't typically take so long to explode :)
[18:14] <dobey> well, any more info on it will have to wait for cjwatson or wgrant to take a look
[21:40] <cjwatson> kyrofa: Looks like a firewall problem
[21:40] <cjwatson> 2016-06-27 17:49:55+0000 [-] Build log: fatal: unable to access 'https://git.launchpad.net/nextcloud-snap/': Failed to connect to git.launchpad.net port 443: Connection timed out
[21:40] <cjwatson> 2016-06-27 17:49:55+0000 [-] Build log: Revoking proxy token...
[21:40] <cjwatson> 2016-06-27 17:52:02+0000 [-] Build log: .URLError: <urlopen error [Errno 110] Connection timed out>
[21:40] <cjwatson> 2016-06-27 17:52:02+0000 [-] Iterating with success flag 1 against stage BUILD_SNAP
[21:40] <cjwatson> 2016-06-27 17:52:02+0000 [-] Returning build status: Builder failed.
[21:41] <cjwatson> kyrofa: File a bug please?  I'll need to chase this down with puppet and/or sysadmins


[21:29] <mishehu> hey folks.  so i got 12.04 installed now on my box, and it's hooked up to my hdtv at 1920x1080.  unfortunately, part of the screen extends beyond the display.  what is the best way to adjust this?
[21:32] <dekarl> mishehu: the best way is to turn overscan off at the tv (for best quality you likely want 1:1 pixel mapping without funky rescaling)
[21:32] <dekarl> see http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Overscan
[21:32] <Zinn> [www.mythtv.org] Overscan - MythTV Official Wiki
[21:32] <mishehu> hmm ok, let me see if I can find those options on the silly tv :-)
[21:33] <mishehu> I'll let you know how it goes :-)
[21:37] <mishehu> dekarl: thanks.  that did the trick.  it was "picture format -> unscaled" on my tv but that did the trick
[21:38] <dekarl> cool, I wasn't sure if there would be such an option :)
[22:08] <glennr> I'm having some trouble getting an IR remote set up on Mythbuntu 12.04. There seems to be lots of contradictory/outdated information out there, where should I be looking for the right instructions?


[00:01] <xivulon> ah didn't do make clean for translations and missed the error...
[00:03] <xivulon> remove Hungarian from src/wubi/translator.nsh (line 25) and compile again
[00:05] <evand> fantastic, thanks
[00:06] <xivulon> 1.3M?
[00:06] <evand> 1.1
[00:06] <evand> but r447 was 1.4M
[00:06] <xivulon> do not know why but am glad about that :)
[00:07] <xivulon> I had 2.1 and 1.3...
[00:07] <xivulon> that though means that the savings are 300K as opposed to 700K
[00:08] <evand> indeed, but that still helps, I imagine
[00:08] <evand> thanks
[00:08] <evand> ok, I'm heading out for a little bit.  I'll be back later tonight.
[00:09] <xivulon> sure
[00:14] <xivulon> evand see my msg about umenu text for option #2 being too long
[00:16] <xivulon> umenu rev 17 is up
[00:17] <xivulon> did not fix the option 2 text though
[00:17] <xivulon> 'night
[08:46] <HADES\stephans> not sure if this is the spot to ask... but, I have a question regarding the installer.
[08:46] <HADES\stephans> I have ubuntu booting fine via tftp boot
[08:47] <HADES\stephans> it grabs the preseed file fine off the we server
[08:47] <HADES\stephans> does every thing.. but it refuses to use my internal mirror of the repository...
[08:48] <HADES\stephans> is the online install repo hard coded in to the installer?
[08:48] <HADES\stephans> here is the relevane section in preeseed:
[08:48] <HADES\stephans>      14 d-i mirror/http/hostname string http://horus.farorbit.com
[08:48] <HADES\stephans>      15 d-i mirror/http/directory string /os/ubuntu/gutsy/
[08:48] <HADES\stephans>      16 d-i mirror/suite string gutsy
[08:59] <soren> HADES\stephans: "http://horus.farorbit.com" is not a hostname. It's a URI.
[09:03] <cjwatson> right, that's a likely cause
[09:03] <HADES\stephans> soren it matches the documentation here: http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/apbs04.html
[09:03] <HADES\stephans> should I omitt the http://?
[09:04] <cjwatson> no, it does not match that documentation
[09:04] <cjwatson> d-i mirror/http/hostname string http.us.debian.org
[09:04] <cjwatson> http.us.debian.org is not the same as http://us.debian.org
[09:04] <cjwatson> you should definitely omit the http://
[09:04] <HADES\stephans> ok
[09:05] <cjwatson> it wouldn't do any harm to file a wishlist bug on choose-mirror to have it skip over http:// automatically, mind you
[09:05] <HADES\stephans> right
[09:48] <xivulon>  evand, cjwatson: just to let you know that received a report of a user with working suspend under wubi/ntfs!
[09:49] <xivulon> I must admit I didn't test the feature with the new kernels, and cannot do so until tonight. If someone else could also confirm this would be great!
[10:11] <xivulon> also my understanding is that hibernation doesn't work with a swap file (correct me if I am wrong), but it does not seem that the pm policies check for that
[10:11] <xivulon> i.e. you are shown the hibernate button even if your swap is on file
[11:25] <xivulon> 2 users confirmed they can suspend...
[11:31] <cjwatson> nice
[11:38] <xivulon> yes I am really pleased, was just asking mjg59 if there was any change in that respect!
[11:39] <xivulon> I did squeeze down wubi by turning off debugging symbols by the way
[12:03] <CIA-24> partman-xfs: cjwatson * r755 ubuntu/ (3 files in 3 dirs): * Make finish.d/aptinstall_xfs and valid_filesystems/xfs executable again.
[12:04] <CIA-24> partman-basicmethods: cjwatson * r713 ubuntu/ (choose_method/filesystem/do_option debian/changelog):
[12:04] <CIA-24> partman-basicmethods: * When changing filesystem, set the default mount options to the contents
[12:04] <CIA-24> partman-basicmethods:  of /lib/partman/mountoptions/${fs}_defaults if it exists (LP: #160450).
[12:04] <CIA-24> partman-basicmethods: cjwatson * r714 ubuntu/debian/control: Ubuntu maintainer address
[12:04] <CIA-24> partman-basicmethods: cjwatson * r715 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 38ubuntu1
[12:04] <CIA-24> partman-basicmethods: cjwatson * r716 ubuntu/ (choose_method/dont_use/choices debian/changelog): * Make choose_method/dont_use/choices executable again.
[12:04] <CIA-24> partman-basicmethods: cjwatson * r717 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 38ubuntu2
[12:05]  * cjwatson hits that cscvs bug from the dawn of time with a spoon
[12:05] <CIA-24> partman-xfs: cjwatson * r756 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 35ubuntu2
[12:07] <CIA-24> partman-partitioning: cjwatson * r668 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog free_space/new/do_option): * Silence warning in case $id/options already exists.
[12:08] <CIA-24> partman-partitioning: cjwatson * r669 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 54ubuntu4
[12:57] <CIA-24> partman-target: cjwatson * r707 ubuntu/ (commit.d/clear_partitions debian/changelog): * Don't clear partitions that aren't marked as using a filesystem.
[13:05] <CIA-24> partman-target: cjwatson * r708 ubuntu/ (5 files in 4 dirs):
[13:05] <CIA-24> partman-target: * Run clear_partitions from finish.d, not commit.d; commit.d is run in all
[13:05] <CIA-24> partman-target:  sorts of places, such as while configuring RAID, where we don't want to
[13:05] <CIA-24> partman-target:  clear partitions yet (LP: #198106).
[13:05] <Bashtoni> Hi
[13:05] <cjwatson> thanks
[13:06] <cjwatson> right, the changes I've made can be replicated as follows
[13:06] <cjwatson> boot the installer, and run through it until it asks you for a partitioning method (Guided, Manual, etc.)
[13:06] <cjwatson> press Alt-F2 and then Enter to start that shell
[13:06] <cjwatson> then type the following commands exactly:
[13:08] <cjwatson> chmod +x /lib/partman/choose_method/70dont_use/choices /lib/partman/finish.d/70aptinstall_xfs /lib/partman/valid_filesystems/25xfs
[13:08] <cjwatson> mv /lib/partman/commit.d/60clear_partitions /lib/partman/finish.d/10clear_partitions
[13:09] <cjwatson> nano /lib/partman/finish.d/10clear_partitions
[13:09] <cjwatson> scroll down to line 19, where it says '[ -f "$id/method" ] || continue'
[13:09] <cjwatson> immediately below that, add a line that says:
[13:09] <cjwatson> [ -f "$id/use_filesystem" ] || continue
[13:09] <cjwatson> save and exit
[13:09] <cjwatson> return to the installer (Alt-F1) and continue
[13:09] <cjwatson> [done]
[13:10] <Bashtoni> OK, giving it a try now
[13:11] <cjwatson> (you can use tab-completion to help with the awkward filenames of course)
[13:14] <Bashtoni> Gah, damn vi-less installer
[13:15] <Bashtoni> It failed because the 10clear_paritions included :w ;)
[13:15] <Bashtoni> Trying again properly..
[13:16] <cjwatson> I use vi myself, but memory is more important in the installer so we pick a single one that most people can cope with
[13:17] <Bashtoni> OK, that worked
[13:18] <Bashtoni> Only oddness is that I created two RAID partitions - a small one for /boot, larger to use as LVM
[13:18] <Bashtoni> Only prompted me to create one MD device, the other seemed to already have been created
[13:20] <cjwatson> I'll try not to debug that at the same time :-)
[13:20] <cjwatson> presumably that's not actually a problem as such, just odd?
[13:20] <Bashtoni> Yeah
[13:22] <Bashtoni> Nice, just noticed the installer uses relatime by default now :)
[13:23] <Bashtoni> Actually, there was one other small issue
[13:24] <Bashtoni> The installer complained about not being able to mount /dev/md1 (which is a pv for lvm)
[13:24] <Bashtoni> Let me continue fine though
[13:24] <cjwatson> I think that's a known one
[13:24] <cjwatson> IIRC anyway
[13:25] <cjwatson> there is some pain around lvm/raid combinations, but I think mostly warnings
[13:25] <cjwatson> yeah, relatime by default was yesterday
[13:25] <cjwatson> ok, that sounds good enough, I'll upload that
[13:25] <cjwatson> thanks
[13:25] <Bashtoni> NP, thanks for sorting it :)
[13:26] <CIA-24> partman-target: cjwatson * r709 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 54ubuntu2
[13:28] <cjwatson> s/yesterday/Tuesday/
[13:38] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2542 ubiquity/d-i/update-changelog: use dch -t option, added in devscripts 2.10.9
[13:39] <CIA-24> oem-config: cjwatson * r429 oem-config/d-i/update-changelog: use dch -t option, added in devscripts 2.10.9
[14:06] <evand> xivulon: fantastic!
[14:07] <xivulon> indeed! when you have a couple of mins can you test it to confirm?
[14:09] <evand> will do
[14:29] <xivulon> A user reported the following issue during kernel upgrade:
[14:29] <xivulon> ln: creating hard link `/boot/initrd.img-2.6.24-11-generic.dpkg-bak' => `/boot/initrd.img-2.6.24-11-generic': Operation not permitted
[14:30] <xivulon> I managed to upgrade successfully yesterday night
[14:32] <evand> perhaps ntfs-3g has issues with hard links
[14:34] <xivulon> do not recall having such issues in the past, and as mentioned I did a kernel upgrade myself which I'd expect would involve similar steps
[14:35] <evand> indeed
[14:40] <cjwatson> that code in update-initramfs changed recently
[14:40] <cjwatson> perhaps the semantics for hardlinks on NTFS aren't POSIXy enough to support what we need
[14:40] <cjwatson> TheMuso_: ^-- thoughts?
[14:41] <cjwatson> I bet you can't rename over the top of another file with link() or something :-(
[14:45] <evand> I really need to always configure my VM installs to output to a serial console.  I just ran into a hard lock when installing Wubi, but I cannot reproduce it now.
[14:50] <xivulon> was that during ubiquity? same amd64 issue?
[14:50] <xivulon> didn't hear any complaint about that from users by the way
[14:52] <evand> indeed, during X startup.
[14:52] <xivulon> I'd thought that the news on suspend had to be compensated somehow...
[14:53] <evand> heh
[15:05] <xivulon> Do not think that X startup should be related to wubi though... Would be a first...
[15:07] <evand> I imagine it would be a bug with ntfs-3g or FUSE if it was Wubi-specific, but I wouldn't worry about it.  If I can reproduce it, I'll take care of getting decent logs.
[15:12] <evand> "Fix: file and directory removal, rename and move may have been denied with an "Operation not supported" error message." - perhaps related?  That's from the ntfs-3g changelog for 1.2216
[15:17] <xivulon> looks plausible
[15:18] <xivulon> what is the current version of ntfs-3g?
[15:19] <xivulon> 1.1120
[15:20] <evand> Also, I checked with the ntfs-3g ML regarding the amd64 and VMWare bug and was told by a SuSE developer that the bug (which is in FUSE, not ntfs-3g) is not present in the FUSE kernel module from 2.6.24 (instead of using the one from fuse-2.7.2)
[15:21] <xivulon> ah good catch
[15:22] <evand> well, he did basically tell me to Google next time as it was the top hit on the ntfs-3g forums for the top of the stack trace :/
[15:23] <evand> I'll take it to -kernel.
[15:23] <xivulon> heh
[15:24] <xivulon> would it be possible to upgrade ntfs-3g?
[15:24] <xivulon> it might be that the error is triggered only in some particular circumstances though
[15:24] <xivulon> which would explain why I did not notice a thing
[15:24] <evand> not sure, I imagine that's a call for slangasek to make.
[15:25] <xivulon> can you ask him or do you want me to do it?
[15:25] <cjwatson> if there's a good reason to upgrade it, we probably should - subscribe the ubuntu-release team to the bug and ask for a feature freeze exception
[15:26] <xivulon> I'd guess the same holds for fuse/vmware
[15:27] <xivulon> I'll write a bug report then
[15:28] <xivulon> but if I link that to the kernel-upgrade failure, it might be difficult to prove that 1.2216 might actually fix that
[15:28] <xivulon> since the ntfs-3g error might be sporadic
[15:29] <xivulon> I will make it a bit more generic maybe
[15:44] <xivulon> I have created bug #199161
[15:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 199161 in ntfs-3g "File and directory removal, rename and move may have been denied with an "Operation not supported"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199161
[15:45] <xivulon> I subscribed the ubuntu release team, let me know if I need to do anything else for the feature freeze exception
[15:49] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2543 ubiquity/ (d-i/manifest debian/changelog):
[15:49] <CIA-24> ubiquity: * Automatic update of included source packages: partman-basicfilesystems
[15:49] <CIA-24> ubiquity:  56ubuntu3, partman-basicmethods 38ubuntu2, partman-ext3 49ubuntu2,
[15:49] <CIA-24> ubiquity:  partman-jfs 25ubuntu1, partman-partitioning 54ubuntu4, partman-reiserfs
[15:49] <CIA-24> ubiquity:  39ubuntu1, partman-target 54ubuntu2, partman-xfs 35ubuntu2.
[15:55] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2544 ubiquity/debian/po/ (79 files): debconf-updatepo
[16:11] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2545 ubiquity/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.7.16
[16:13] <cjwatson> ^-- just in case they need to respin with the partman-basicmethods fix
[16:14] <evand> ah, whoops.
[16:16] <cjwatson> not your fault
[16:16] <cjwatson> I had forgotten about the antediluvian cscvs bug that caused that
[16:27] <tjaalton> cjwatson: thanks for working on relatime-support.. it should be the default now?
[16:28] <tjaalton> gah, to the bus ->
[16:30] <xivulon> would you think that a lower swappiness would be beneficial in wubi installations (given that the swap is an ntfs-3g file)?
[16:30] <cjwatson> tjaalton: alternate only for the moment, desktop support probably not in alpha 6 but in beta
[17:22] <tjaalton> cjwatson: I've done a couple of netboot installations, and at least mount(1) doesn't show the options?
[17:22] <tjaalton> -s
[17:38] <cjwatson> tjaalton: I had to add it to busybox mount
[18:16] <tjaalton> cjwatson: I mean the installed system doesn't seem to use it, or is there something missing?
[18:18] <cjwatson> tjaalton: does it show up in /etc/fstab?
[18:19] <tjaalton> cjwatson: no, only "defaults"
[18:20] <cjwatson> can I see your syslog and the date of the netboot image you used?
[18:21] <cjwatson> you need to have downloaded it on Tuesday evening or later
[18:21] <tjaalton> the image is from yesterday morning.. damn
[18:21] <tjaalton> oh
[18:23] <evand> Would it be reasonable to call dhclient in the initramfs?  The removal of eth0 from the interfaces file breaks preseeding via a URL on the desktop CD.
[18:23] <cjwatson> urr. might need to ask that in a wider forum, I'm not quite sure
[18:23] <cjwatson> you could do it if and only if preseeding is in use
[18:24] <evand> Or perhaps I should just add the lines back to interfaces if url= is set?
[18:24] <tjaalton> cjwatson: http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/foo/syslog
[18:26] <cjwatson> tjaalton: busybox definitely too old
[18:26] <cjwatson> Mar  5 15:45:53 kernel: klogd started: BusyBox v1.1.3 (Debian 1:1.1.3-5ubuntu10)
[18:26] <cjwatson> busybox (1:1.1.3-5ubuntu12) hardy; urgency=low
[18:26] <cjwatson>   * Add support for relatime and norelatime mount options (closes: #460824).
[18:26] <cjwatson>  -- Colin Watson<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:02:33 +0000
[18:27] <tjaalton> cjwatson: yeah, I'll try again tomorrow :)
[18:27] <cjwatson> maybe downloaded it from a mirror that was behind
[18:27] <cjwatson> oh, we were having internal mirroring problems yesterday morning
[18:27] <cjwatson> that would probably be it
[18:28] <tjaalton> yep
[18:29] <tjaalton> I fetch installer images from a.u.c, the rest is mirrored locally
[20:32] <xivulon> looks like I spoke too soon on the ntfs-3g issue... The chap came back and he is using fat32 not ntfs...
[20:33] <xivulon> so the feature freeze exception looses one case study....
[20:34] <xivulon> I'd still think that 1.216 is useful
[20:35] <xivulon> but now I have to find out what is the issue with vfat
[20:39] <xivulon> obvious q are hard links supported in vfat?
[20:49] <TheMuso> cjwatson: hrm. Interesting, but not entirely surprising to me. I wonder whether we should check what filesystem /boot is sitting on perhaps? At this point, I have no other ideas.
[21:25] <mebrown> evand ping
[21:26] <evand> mebrown: pong
[21:33] <mebrown> we had a conversation here that I was going to ask you something, but I've forgotten...
[21:34] <mebrown> just a sec while I think... :)
[21:35] <evand> heh, ok
[21:36] <mebrown> evand, nope, cant remember. doh.
[21:38] <evand> haha, that's ok.  Just ask in here or via email when you do :)
[21:44] <xivulon> evand ^ on ntfs-3g
[21:49] <evand> xivulon: hard links are not supported on vfat, as I understand it
[21:50] <xivulon> yeah that was my guess too
[21:50] <xivulon> I am wondering though if hard links in kernel upgrade scripts are a new feature
[21:51] <xivulon> I don't think I have seen anyone complain about that before
[21:51] <evand> probably because hardly anyone uses fat32 anymore :)
[21:52] <TheMuso> Hard links don't work on NTF either do they?
[21:52] <TheMuso> NTFs
[21:54] <TheMuso> Oh of course not, that was what was being discussed earlier.
[21:55] <evand> TheMuso: works for me
[21:55] <TheMuso> evand: HRM so its just FAT32 then.
[21:56] <evand> indeed
[21:56] <TheMuso> Actually... That might explain why the wubi test I did the other day on a FAT32 windows install didn't boot properly after it had finished installing. :)
[21:56] <evand> xivulon: perhaps we should just tell people using fat32 to covnert their filesystem to NTFS?  I can't see any reason why someone would want to keep using FAT32.
[21:56] <evand> You don't support < Windows 2000 anyway, right?
[21:58] <TheMuso> evand: People still may want to access windwos from Linux without having a separate partition.
[21:59] <TheMuso> evand: Although the problem with this, is that FAT32 wouldn't support symbolic links either I would think.
[21:59] <evand> TheMuso: I don't follow.  Why wouldn't they be able to do that?
[22:00] <TheMuso> evand: Yeah thinking about it more, now that we have ntfs-3g with write support, it is totally nullified.
[22:00] <xivulon> evand I did have several users with fat...
[22:00] <xivulon> so I am a bit perplexed
[22:00] <evand> symbolic links do not work for me on vfat
[22:01] <xivulon> can you double check hard links
[22:01] <xivulon> that is only relevant for /boot
[22:01] <xivulon> I am not sure why hardlinks are needed at all to be honest...
[22:01] <xivulon> I would have thought that you just have to generate an initrd and drop it in /boot
[22:01] <TheMuso> xivulon: Its more complex than that I'm affraid.
[22:02] <TheMuso> xivulon: It has to do with making sure that a valid initramfs is still present, even if a new initramfs generation fails.
[22:02] <TheMuso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyInitramfsErrorHandling
[22:02] <TheMuso> I think is the correct URL.
[22:02] <evand> xivulon: double checked, no such luck
[22:03] <cjwatson> we could fall back to a more stupid and less reliable implementation if the hardlink attempt fails
[22:03] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Thats what I'm starting to wonder about.
[22:03] <cjwatson> like cp -a (takes more space, but would do)
[22:05] <TheMuso> cjwatson: I guess we could simply put the hard linking into an if check, and if it fails, then we copy...
[22:06] <cjwatson> well, ln -f blah || cp -a blah
[22:06] <cjwatson> but yeah
[22:06] <xivulon> that would be great!
[22:07] <cjwatson> not really much that can go wrong with ln that wouldn't break cp too
[22:07] <cjwatson> aside from vfat
[22:07] <cjwatson> so that approach should be safe
[22:07]  * cjwatson sighs at crappy non-POSIX filesystems in this day and age
[22:07] <evand> well, vfat isn't really this day and age :)
[22:08] <TheMuso> yet heaps of devices still use it.
[22:08]  * TheMuso looks at USB sticks.
[22:08] <evand> point taken
[22:08] <xivulon> have a look at your usb key...
[22:09] <xivulon> Ok I will have to rectify the feature freeze request
[22:09] <xivulon> I still think that it is valid, since ntfs shortcomings might also have produced the same issue
[22:09] <TheMuso> Well thsi initramfs issue is a bug, and well found too.
[22:11] <cjwatson> *my* USB key is ext3 :-P
[22:11] <xivulon> reformatting that does not count...
[22:12] <CIA-24> partman-target: cjwatson * r710 ubuntu/debian/ (changelog rules): * Fix build; commit.d is gone, really.
[22:13] <cjwatson> how about I test-build partman-target this time :-/
[22:14] <TheMuso> heh
[22:15] <cjwatson> urgh, ubiquity doesn't notice d-i components failing to build
[22:15] <TheMuso> Alright, what I might do, is make initramfs changes, and check whether they make a difference locally on a modified image using wubi. If so, I'll upload.
[22:16] <CIA-24> partman-target: cjwatson * r711 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 54ubuntu3
[22:22] <mebrown> f13 ping
[22:22] <mebrown> doh. wrong channel
[22:25] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2546 ubiquity/ (configure configure.ac): bump to 1.7.17
[22:58] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2547 ubiquity/ (d-i/Makefile debian/changelog): * Ensure that our build fails if one of the d-i components fails to build.
[22:59] <CIA-24> oem-config: cjwatson * r430 oem-config/ (d-i/Makefile debian/changelog): * Ensure that our build fails if one of the d-i components fails to build.
[23:03] <CIA-24> oem-config: cjwatson * r431 oem-config/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
[23:03] <CIA-24> oem-config: * Add a check-manifest tool to ensure that d-i/manifest is in sync with
[23:03] <CIA-24> oem-config:  d-i/source/ on upload (from ubiquity).
[23:19] <TheMuso> What file or files does wubi check on the CD to check that it is an Ubuntu CD?
[23:22] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2548 ubiquity/ (d-i/manifest debian/changelog): * Automatic update of included source packages: partman-target 54ubuntu3.
[23:32] <TheMuso> xivulon: How does wubi know what CD it is being run from, i.e ubuntu, kubuntu, etc?
[23:33] <xivulon> TheMuso, it parses .disk/info
[23:33] <xivulon> if it's an ISO it first extracts .disk/info
[23:36] <xivulon> to be precise, wubi scans all disks for signs of an Ubuntu CD starting with the drive hosting the exe
[23:36] <xivulon> if a CD is find it enters into CD "mode", so that for instance you cannot select a different distro
[23:44] <TheMuso> Ah ok, thanks.
[23:50] <xivulon> hmm is it possible/useful to test suspend-to-ram in vm (virtualbox)?
[23:50] <xivulon> suspend to ram seems to be disabled by default in such setup and if I run the command manually does not work too well
[23:53] <CIA-24> ubiquity: cjwatson * r2549 ubiquity/ (d-i/Makefile debian/changelog):
[23:53] <CIA-24> ubiquity: * Don't clean console-setup; bits of it are intentionally missing from our
[23:53] <CIA-24> ubiquity:  copy, and it's not necessary.
[23:54] <CIA-24> oem-config: cjwatson * r432 oem-config/ (d-i/Makefile debian/changelog):
[23:54] <CIA-24> oem-config: * Don't clean console-setup; bits of it are intentionally missing from our
[23:54] <CIA-24> oem-config:  copy, and it's not necessary.