 Cancun area :)
[07:48] <willcooke> So a late night then?
[07:48] <Trevinho> yeah...
[07:48] <willcooke> you kids
[07:48] <willcooke> ;)
[07:49] <Trevinho> mornings are not my thing :-D
[07:49] <willcooke> :D
[07:50] <seb128> we are getting quite some feedback/bugs reported against 17.10, that's nice
[07:50] <seb128> I went through the bugs from my 3 days w.e yesterday, had to do a 10-11pm round to finish the list, it was like 700 reports (only including main package in the list)
[07:50] <seb128> quite a difference of most weeks where it takes 1.5 hours to review the w.e activity :p
[07:52] <willcooke> heh
[07:52] <willcooke> Thanks for taking time to do that
[07:52] <willcooke> but yeah, it's good that people are logging bugs
[07:52] <willcooke> I think we've got the message out quite well
[07:55] <oSoMoN> salut seb128
[07:55] <didrocks> hey willcooke, Trevinho
[07:55] <oSoMoN> hey willcooke
[08:01] <Laney> hey ho
[08:02] <willcooke> hi Laney
[08:04] <Laney> hey willcooke
[08:04] <Laney> all good?
[08:05] <willcooke> Today is "hammering and drilling" day at the soon-to-be-opened Barbra Cartland Wing of Cooke Towers.
[08:06] <seb128> hey Laney!
[08:07] <seb128> haha
[08:07] <seb128> willcooke, summary of going through the report is that we don't get that many user complains about the experience or softwares
[08:07] <seb128> but nautilus/gnome-control-center/gnome-calendar are hitting quite some segfaults
[08:07] <seb128> and gnome-shell quality is poor
[08:08] <seb128> I wonder if 3.26 was just not a good cycle for it
[08:08] <seb128> lot of reports about screens handling, 3 monitors not working, rotation being buggy, configs lost between reboots, still people having to suspend on lid close with external monitor in use, etc
[08:08] <seb128> then the segfaults
[08:09] <seb128> but overall it seems like things we can get in shape next cycle
[08:09] <willcooke> shall we start tagging bugs for trello?  Or do another pass through next week first?
[08:09] <seb128> I would wait a bit before starting to tag, let's digest the feedback a bit more during this week?
[08:09] <willcooke> +1
[08:10] <willcooke> thanks
[08:10] <seb128> yw!
[08:11] <didrocks> morning Laney
[08:16] <seb128> duflu, does https://patchwork.freedesktop.org/patch/182709/ sounds like something worth SRUing to 17.10?
[08:16] <duflu> seb128, I think a few of those issues have been known for years. They just haven't received attention
[08:17] <duflu> seb128, yes I was thinking that but as mentioned in the report, I also can't reproduce the problem to test an SRU
[08:17] <seb128> duflu, they reworked the screens handling in 3.26 afaik, before it was gnome-settings-daemon which was applying the configurations
[08:18] <duflu> seb128, there are however some users who swear profile selection is still broken for them so the most reliable solution is also slow -- ask them to test 18.04 when the fix is there
[08:19] <seb128> duflu, sounds good, I don't understand why it works because the commit message from ^ seems to make pretty clear thatg with current priorities hsp should be used by default
[08:19] <seb128> anyway, let's see if we get more reports and people testing the new version
[08:19] <duflu> seb128, I think it's a function of what your device advertises - device specific?
[08:20] <seb128> could be yes
[08:20] <seb128> duflu, I'm catching up with backlog, just saw your totem-pl-parser fix, I like it :-)
[08:21] <seb128> small and makes sense
[08:23] <duflu> seb128, unfortunately not foolproof though. It /assumes/ disk writing is fast, and only fsync is slow
[08:23] <duflu> which seems to be true for myself and the upstream reporter
[08:24] <duflu> A proper fix would span two projects and require much more code
[08:25] <seb128> right, well that's an improvement and simple
[08:25] <seb128> so a step in the right direction still
[08:26] <duflu> Yeah I don't want to talk anyone into wanting the latter
[08:26] <duflu> I don't like that GTK apps in general share one main loop between rendering and disk IO
[08:28] <sb87> Hello developper, why choose Gnome-Shell for 17.10 and not Kde/Plasma or Xfce or Mate ?
[08:33] <duflu> sb87, the decision is not one we developers make (or disagree with). It came from a higher authority: https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
[08:33] <krashekspress> What an interesting question, I actually prefer Gnome, but some "features" are just ridiculous
[08:35] <sb87> what is the preferred desktop environment for Ubutu developers ?
[08:36] <sb87> Gnome ? Xfce ? Kde ? Lxde ? Cinnamon ? Mate ? Pantheon ? Lxqt ? Enlightnment ? i3wm ? Budgie ?...
[08:37] <duflu> sb87, Ubuntu developers actually like to use a bunch of different ones but if working on the desktop itself then mostly Gnome
[08:39] <sb87> According to the developers, what should you improve in the gnome shell ?
[08:39] <krashekspress> Are you planning to redo Ambience for Gnome? From my POV Adwaita looks way better throughout the shell
[08:41] <seb128> sb87, Ubuntu has always used GNOME technologies, that's what we have most experience with, the community we know best and there release cycle, etc is aligned with ours
[08:42] <sb87> Ubuntu 18.04 will be released with Gnome 3.28 ?
[08:42] <seb128> it's not decided
[08:43] <seb128> it depends of how much change and if we believe the changes to be suitable for the LTS
[08:43] <sb87> what change is planned for Gnome 3.28 (compared to 3.26) ?
[08:44] <seb128> sb87, that's a question for GNOME, I don't think they decided on everything yet
[08:44] <seb128> sb87, https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointTwentyseven
[08:45] <sb87> thx
[08:45] <sb87> one last question
[08:46] <seb128> sb87, https://wiki.gnome.org/ReleasePlanning/FeaturePlans has some details
[08:46] <sb87> what is the codename of Ubuntu 18.04 ?
[08:47] <seb128> we don't know yet
[08:47] <sb87> how long will you know?
[08:48] <seb128> this week probably
[08:49] <seb128> interesting, the featureplans GNOME package has "New On-Screen-Keyboard"
[08:53] <willcooke> Oooh, nice
[08:56] <duflu> One with more keys?
[08:56] <duflu> And more languages?
[09:00] <duflu> One that uses the full width of the screen?
[09:03] <willcooke> earlier in the cycle it did use the full width, then one day it changed
[09:16] <Trevinho> duflu: do you use git bz for patches?
[09:16] <duflu> Trevinho, git when I can
[09:16] <Trevinho> duflu: I mean git bz, to add patches to gnome bugzilla
[09:16] <Trevinho> and manage them
[09:17] <duflu> Trevinho, never heard of it. Thanks
[09:17] <Trevinho> to automatize things
[09:18] <Trevinho> duflu: install it, then use the -h, or read the man, but basically use file to open a new bug to send a patch, or use attach to push /update patches to bug
[11:08] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, hey, did you see my message yesterday about chromium 62.0.3202.62 being ready in the stage PPA ?
[11:33] <chrisccoulson> oSoMoN, yeah, I'm on that at the moment
[11:33] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, excellent, thanks!
[11:34] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, also, did you do something wrt bug #1725238, or are you leaving it to me?
[11:54] <willcooke> chrisccoulson, can we get an answer on that q. please?  We need to get moving with it and don't want to tread on toes if you're already on the case ^
[12:06] <chrisccoulson> willcooke, I don't plan to do anything with that. It's fixed upstream already, so will be in a future update, and it was broken for several months before anyone noticed
[12:08] <ricotz> chrisccoulson, if so, putting some pressure on it to get it uplifted for 57 would still help
[12:10] <willcooke> So it's fixed in 58 right?
[12:10] <ricotz> yes
[12:10] <chrisccoulson> it is
[12:10] <willcooke> so maybe another 2 months until it's "fixed" in Ubuntu?
[12:11] <ricotz> like 2018-01-16
[12:12] <willcooke> oSoMoN, sounds like we should aim to back port them to 57 then, wdyt?
[12:14] <oSoMoN> willcooke, yeah, if the fix can be safely backported
[12:15] <chrisccoulson> I think the probability of getting upstream to uplift it to 57 is low (see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1382323#c40)
[12:15] <chrisccoulson> It's quite an old regression (Firefox 54, which was january)
[12:15] <oSoMoN> what's interesting is that those snap:// links work here on my artful in firefox (but not in a clean VM), I wonder what in my config makes it work
[12:16] <chrisccoulson> oSoMoN, you've probably got an addon that disables multiprocess
[12:22]  * kenvandine waves
[12:22] <oSoMoN> hey kenvandine
[12:23] <kenvandine> i won't be around long, need to logout to use my laptop as a demo machine for the GNOME booth :)
[12:23] <kenvandine> oSoMoN, tons of people had questions yesterday about Ubuntu switching to GNOME
[12:24] <kenvandine> i'd say about half were disappointed and about half were excited
[12:25] <kenvandine> i was surprised how many people walked up to the GNOME booth to tell us they were going to really miss Unity but would try to get used to GNOME
[12:25] <oSoMoN> same on IRC and forums, the switch to GNOME is generating a lot of heat
[12:25] <kenvandine> they didn't really know i'm from Ubuntu :)
[12:25] <kenvandine> but just as many were saying it was about time ubuntu switched
[12:26] <kenvandine> system 76 is a big presence here and giving away some of the best stuff
[12:27] <kenvandine> lots of Pop!_OS buzz
[12:27] <didrocks> hey kenvandine!
[12:28] <kenvandine> hey didrocks
[12:29] <kenvandine> oSoMoN, i hit the same problem as popey did with your chromium snap yesterday
[12:29] <kenvandine> just tested the latest and works now :)
[12:29] <oSoMoN> kenvandine, so you managed to upgrade the snap, or did you have to uninstall the previous revision to install the new one?
[12:30] <kenvandine> i had uninstalled it last night
[12:30] <kenvandine> although the uninstall looked like it failed
[12:30] <oSoMoN> right, that's what I did too, but it looks like the upgrade path is broken because of snapd having become too strict
[12:30] <oSoMoN> I'm talking to m_vo about it on #snappy
[12:30] <kenvandine> LaunchProcess: failed to execvp:
[12:30] <kenvandine> xdg-desktop-menu
[12:31] <kenvandine> i see lots of that in the console
[12:32] <oSoMoN> with the chromium snap? mind adding that to the call for testing thread?
[12:32] <kenvandine> sure
[12:33] <kenvandine> oSoMoN, done
[12:34] <oSoMoN> cheers
[12:34] <kenvandine> ok, time to logout and repurpose the laptop for demos :)
[12:34] <popey> I can't even install it now
[12:34] <kenvandine> popey, i win :)
[12:35] <ricotz> oSoMoN, willcooke, regarding https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1382323 -- the patch still applies cleanly, so I can add it with the next 57 beta 12 upload
[12:39] <willcooke> thanks ricotz, would be good to be able to test.
[12:41] <ricotz> willcooke, ok, should be available during this Friday
[12:41] <willcooke> nice one
[12:42] <oSoMoN> neat
[12:42] <oSoMoN> thanks ricotz!
[13:05] <seb128> andyrock, hey, could you prepare a SRU for https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789141? e.g update the bug to be SRU compliant (impact/test case/regression potential) and put a merge request up against the packaging vcs?
[13:11] <sb87> You should put the default "Xorg session" on 18.04 ! Xorg session has less trouble than wayland !
[13:12] <ogra_> it will surely be available (unless nvidia proprietary drivers make a quantum leap in the next 6 months and support wayland)
[13:12] <mgedmin> nah, better fix all the bugs in wayland :)
[13:13] <ogra_> that too ...
[13:13] <ogra_> but if the wayland session is unusable on nvidia the xorg session will still have to be there
[13:14] <sb87> Xorg session must be default!
[13:15] <ogra_> that wont fix wayland :)
[13:15] <sb87> and wayland as a secondary choice
[13:15] <ogra_> there is 6 months to fix all the remaining issues
[13:15] <ogra_> this is why it is the default right now
[13:15] <ogra_> so you can file bugs that can get fixed in time
[13:16] <ogra_> make sure to file them if you find them ;)
[13:17] <sb87> it's not just a problem
[13:18] <sb87> it is not compatible with the proprietary drivers (essential to play)
[13:18] <ogra_> see what i said above :)
[13:19] <sb87> and applications like gparted or synaptic are not compatible
[13:19] <ogra_> so they need to be fixed
[13:20] <sb87> why not put xorg first and wayland 2nd (and not the other way around)
[13:21] <ogra_> why should we ? if you use nvidia, xorg is already auto-selected today ... and if the apps get fixed to properly use polkit they will work ... what are your other issues beyond this ?
[13:22] <gQuigs> next version of gparted is already compatible (not in archive yet).. things won't get fixed without something/someone to push them forward
[13:22] <ogra_> indeed
[13:22] <ogra_> but all distros that default to wayland are pushing currently :)
[13:23] <andyrock>  seb128 sure thing
[13:23] <andyrock> can I do that in few hours
[13:23] <andyrock> ?
[13:23] <andyrock> I'm busy with another thing
[13:23] <sb87> ok
[13:24] <seb128> andyrock, sure, it's not urgent, another day this week is fine as well
[13:24] <sb87> if it does not have more bug on wayland than xorg for the 18.04 it's ok for me (for now it's not the case).
[13:24] <andyrock> kk thanks
[13:24] <ogra_> that is why it was made the default right now ... so these bugs can be fixed :)
[13:25] <gQuigs> sb87: I've seen reports that wayland is less crash prone for certain video playback, but I don't have the machines myself - one of those things that depends on hardwarew
[13:25] <ogra_> (and found)
[13:26] <sb87> for example, vlc works better under xorg than under wayland
[13:27] <ogra_> file bugs then :)
[13:27] <sb87> when i run a movie, if I move the cursor quickly in vlc, under wayland from time to time it freezes several seconds, I do not have this behavior under xorg.
[13:28] <sb87> it's just an example
[13:42] <sb87>  when will the first dailybuild for 18.04 be available?
[13:50] <jbicha> gQuigs: I don't know if we want the gparted "fix" https://bugzilla.gnome.org/776437
[13:52] <jbicha> mdeslaur: what do you think? https://git.gnome.org/browse/gparted/commit/?id=f38ccd02
[13:53] <jbicha> sb87: there hasn't been a codename announced for 18.04 yet, ask again about daily builds next week
[13:53] <gQuigs> jbicha: I'd only read the changelog.. hmm
[13:53] <gQuigs> yes, it's the Bionic Beaver :)
[13:53] <gQuigs> my favorite name yet
[13:54] <jbicha> gQuigs: oh he updated his blog :) thanks
[13:57] <mgedmin> mispositioned gnome-terminal tab tooltips in a dual-head scenario: gtk+ bug or gnome-shell bug?
[13:58] <sb87> ohoh
[13:58] <sb87> Ubuntu 18.04 Bionic Beaver
[14:00] <mgedmin> https://imgur.com/a/rwkxZ
[14:06] <mdeslaur> jbicha: "wtf!" is what I think of that
[14:06] <willcooke> lol
[14:07] <willcooke> mgedmin, I /think/ that's a know issue, tooltips being generally misplaced, looking for the bug
[14:07] <jbicha> mdeslaur: well if you have time, feel free to comment on their bug. Maybe I should have pointed out what they were intending sooner
[14:07] <jbicha> the devs did hesitate enough to not enable it by default
[14:08] <mdeslaur> jbicha: that doesn't even make sense
[14:13] <ricotz> chrisccoulson, oh no ... error: failed to build archive: Cannot allocate memory , error: Could not compile `gkrust`.
[14:14] <ricotz> chrisccoulson, if they bump to rustc 1.21 this week as scheduled, it might get better
[14:14] <ricotz> so looks like gcc/rust runs out of memory on the ppa builder
[14:28]  * willcooke rings the bell
[14:28] <jbicha> o/
[14:29] <didrocks> hey hey
[14:29] <andyrock> o/
[14:30] <willcooke> #startmeeting Desktop Team Weekly meeting - 2017-10-24
[14:30] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 24 14:30:01 2017 UTC.  The chair is willcooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:30] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[14:30] <willcooke> Roll call: andyrock, dgadomski, didrocks, duflu (out), jbicha, jamesh (out), jibel/heber (both on hols), kenvandine (out), laney, oSoMoN (out), seb128, tkamppeter, trevinho (out), robert_ancell (out)
[14:30] <willcooke> lots of people out today
[14:31] <seb128> hey
[14:31] <willcooke> Since andyrock is here, let's start
[14:31] <willcooke> #topic andyrock
[14:31] <andyrock> hey
[14:31] <andyrock> 1. Theme fix for osd progressbar: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-themes/+bug/1724808
[14:31] <andyrock> 2. Fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+bug/1724703
[14:31] <andyrock> 3. Fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-control-center/+bug/1720400
[14:31] <andyrock> 4. Fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-printers/+bug/1703046
[14:31] <andyrock> 5. Some debugging and some work for: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-themes/+bug/1724651
[14:31] <andyrock> 6. Started to work on an oem bug on unity-control-center/16.04
[14:31] <andyrock> + some bug triaging
[14:31] <andyrock> eow
[14:32] <willcooke> Thanks andyrock, how's the LP API working out?
[14:32] <willcooke> LivePatch
[14:32] <andyrock> I'm planning to work on this starting from tomorrow
[14:32] <willcooke> oki thanks
[14:32] <willcooke> #topic dgadomski
[14:32] <andyrock> after I finish with the oem bug
[14:32] <willcooke> sorry andyrock
[14:32] <andyrock> np!
[14:33] <willcooke> looks like dgadomski is off
[14:33] <willcooke> #topic didrocks
[14:33] <didrocks> * Debug with the community the ATI card issues. Found regression commits and revert those just in time for release (after a late respin). Probably prevented (from the feedback) every non wayland supported configuration to start with a headless display.
[14:33] <didrocks> * Prepared SRU with real upstream fix. In proposed right now, confirmed to work on previously broken configuration (and they run wayland now!)
[14:33] <didrocks> * SRU for gnome-shell-extension-appindicator & Qt apps icon disappearing after lock/resume.
[14:33] <didrocks> * SRU fixing a g-c-c crash due to dock panel, enable another patch from seb
[14:33] <didrocks> * Discussed desktop snap not working on Fedora and workaround review on desktop helper
[14:33] <didrocks> * Pinged about extensions still blocked on extensions.gnome.org (for us owning our extension naming). Still blocked on some legal constraints.
[14:33] <didrocks> * Wrote the last blog post for the 17.10 series: https://didrocks.fr/2017/10/18/ubuntu-gnome-shell-in-artful-day-16/
[14:33] <didrocks> * Answer to people on the hub + monitor french forum and discussions on the blog.
[14:33] <didrocks> * Filed a RT for discourse integration not working on the blog. Willcooke: do you mind nudging this on IS side?
[14:33] <didrocks> * Workarounded with "manual discourse link" implemented on my blog post
[14:33] <didrocks> * The new Ubuntu Make maintainer asked for a little bit of help, did it. (reviews, suggestions, merges)
[14:33] <didrocks> * Some bug reviews (theme on the Shell)
[14:33] <didrocks> .
[14:34] <willcooke> thanks didrocks, can you ping me a RT link and I will ping
[14:34] <didrocks> sure
[14:34] <willcooke> ping ping a ping ping
[14:34] <willcooke> ta
[14:34] <willcooke> #topic duflu
[14:34] <willcooke> * Mutter/Xwayland
[14:34] <willcooke>   - Completed a few iterations of my fix to allow Xwayland to dump core when it crashes (instead of always hiding core/crash files): https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789086
[14:34] <willcooke> * Totem stuttering (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1698270)
[14:34] <willcooke>   - Made a few attempts at fixing: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=733780
[14:34] <willcooke>   - But eventually proposed the simplest solution (one line).
[14:34] <willcooke>   - Now we have fixes for all the totem stuttering issues and just need to work on landing/releasing them (see patch statuses below)...
[14:34] <willcooke> * Daily bug management across gnome-shell, mutter, gdm3, ubuntu-themes, bluez, pulseaudio, dkms and mir.
[14:34] <willcooke>   - Multiple days spent answering bug mail, thanks to the release.
[14:34] <willcooke> * Patches awaiting Ubuntu sponsorship (or needing refreshing for 18.04):
[14:34] <willcooke>   - https://code.launchpad.net/~vanvugt/gtk/fix-1698270/+merge/331846
[14:34] <willcooke>   - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+bug/1714459/comments/15
[14:35] <willcooke> * Patches awaiting upstream review:
[14:35] <willcooke>   - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=645433
[14:35] <willcooke>   - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=733780
[14:35] <willcooke>   - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=787665
[14:35] <willcooke>   - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=773453
[14:35] <willcooke>   - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=787001
[14:35] <willcooke>   - and soon again: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789086
[14:35] <willcooke> * PulseAudio news regarding 17.10 - No real news, only four new bugs reported:
[14:35] <willcooke>   - A USB headset is dropping connection, but the user has already verified Pulse 11 fixes it.
[14:35] <willcooke>   - One new crash, occurred only once for one person.
[14:35] <willcooke>   - One VIA audio chip not showing up.
[14:35] <willcooke>   - One apparent user error.
[14:35] <willcooke> * Older PulseAudio bugs being talked about in 17.10:
[14:35] <willcooke>   - Kubuntu pulseaudio doesn't work. But the bug is really upstream, easy to fix and to workaround, plus a second redundant fix is coming when we disable the offending module in pulse 11: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/1720519
[14:35] <willcooke>   - HSP really was being prioritized over A2DP, still! But it seems it doesn't manifest for many people so didn't showed up in our testing. Already fixed upstream in Pulse 12 and we'll patch it into 18.04 soonish. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/1720684
[14:35] <willcooke> * BlueZ news regarding 17.10:
[14:35] <willcooke>   - No bluez bugs reported at all since release.
[14:35] <willcooke> #topic jbicha
[14:35] <jbicha> • forwarded https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789254
[14:35] <jbicha> • fix uploaded for LP: #1725288
[14:36] <jbicha> • Added Provides: libsane to try to fix LP: #1707352 but that didn't work with versioned deps.
[14:36] <jbicha>  I think we need to add a transitional package libsane depending on libsane1 instead. Maybe we'll revert the rename for Bionic.
[14:36] <jbicha> • Uploaded gtk3 for LP: #1719043 but that caused a totem regression. Instead, we'll follow GNOME and cherry-pick the mutter revert to fix epiphany (!)
[14:36] <jbicha> • Proposing LP: #1726093
[14:36] <jbicha> • Helped a bit on forums with people upgrading to 17.10.
[14:36] <jbicha> eof
[14:36] <willcooke> thanks jbicha.  Let's talk about that MIR in AOB at the end
[14:37] <willcooke> #topic jamesh
[14:37] <willcooke> gnome-software: tracked down cause of bug #1724316: root cause is that
[14:37] <willcooke> SSO will refuse to refresh snapd's credentials if the user has changed
[14:37] <willcooke> their password.  To compound matters, snapd was forwarding this error
[14:37] <willcooke> as a generic "internal server error", making it difficult to
[14:37] <willcooke> intelligently recover.  Snapd changes submitted and reviewed (but not
[14:37] <willcooke> landed).  Corresponding snapd-glib and gnome-software changes in
[14:37] <willcooke> progress.
[14:37] <willcooke> snapd: followed up on default apps question: confined apps shouldn't
[14:37] <willcooke> be able to change defaults without user approval, so this is probably
[14:37] <willcooke> a job for xdg-desktop-portal in future (upstream bug filed).  mvo has
[14:37] <willcooke> put together a PR to provide an interim solution based on snapd-userd
[14:37] <willcooke> and zenity for the UI: will need to look at the security implications.
[14:37] <willcooke> I touched base with z_yga about the state of the mount namespace
[14:37] <willcooke> related work.  He is going to be working on the new content interface
[14:37] <willcooke> changes discussed at the sprint that will be needed for desktop theme
[14:37] <willcooke> support.  We also went over how I can get my user mounts branch to do
[14:37] <willcooke> its work through snap-update-ns.  I need to finish off those changes
[14:37] <willcooke> though.
[14:37] <willcooke> going to assume kenvandine[m][m] is not available
[14:37] <willcooke> #topic Laney
[14:38] <Laney> • Short week
[14:38] <Laney> • Worked on some gnome-software small bugs/features
[14:38] <Laney> ∘ Fixing apt:// to work again with the PK backend (not a big problem as we still have apturl)
[14:38] <Laney> ∘ Looking at the "shell extensions" category being empty because there are too many results, might be something to do to reduce the number shown
[14:38] <Laney> • Investigated / debugged the problem which was keeping gtk in artful-proposed, fixed in the software-properties test
[14:38] <Laney> • Reviewed / accepted some release fixes and random changes for others
[14:38] <Laney> • Some random release checklist things, mostly turning stuff off
[14:38] <Laney> • Helped a bit on arm64 testing, should be able to turn that on fully this week
[14:38] <Laney> 😈
[14:38] <willcooke> thanks Laney
[14:39] <willcooke> #topic oSoMoN
[14:39] <willcooke> • prepared SRU for bug #1718446 and got it published
[14:39] <willcooke> • promoted chromium snap (61.0.3163.100) from candidate to stable channel
[14:39] <willcooke> • updated chromium beta packages to 62.0.3202.62 for all supported
[14:39] <willcooke> releases, then stable (ready for publication, Chris currently
[14:39] <willcooke> validating)
[14:39] <willcooke> • built chromium snap 62.0.3202.62, published to candidate channel and
[14:39] <willcooke> issued call for testing
[14:39] <willcooke> • updated chromium dev packages to 63.0.3239.9 (artful, zesty,
[14:39] <willcooke> xenial), trusty requires more work
[14:39] <willcooke> • next up: libreoffice 5.4.2 SRU and snap, bug #1725238
[14:39] <willcooke> #topic seb128
[14:39] <seb128> would be good to verify that"
[14:39] <seb128> ups
[14:39] <seb128> * had one day off
[14:39] <seb128> * iso testing
[14:39] <seb128> * helped Didier testing gnome-shell revert debs to debug the ati/wayland issue
[14:39] <seb128> * loads of recently-reported-bugs triaging
[14:39] <seb128> * cleaned up gnome-software bugs and tagged snaps related issues
[14:39] <seb128> * sponsored the gdm/gnome-session/fallback SRU from Olivier

[14:40] <willcooke> thanks seb128
[14:40] <willcooke> #topic tkamppeter
[14:40] <tkamppeter> - UDEV/systemd: Got upstream answer from Lennart Poettering (original author of systemd?) and it seems that the fix of the escaping in the UDEV rules file does not solve the problem. There is still a problem with the escaping (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/7109).
[14:40] <tkamppeter> - Google Summer of Code 2018: Started planning.
[14:40] <tkamppeter> - Got the flu and had some sessions at the dentist.
[14:40] <tkamppeter> - Bugs.
[14:41] <willcooke> hope you're on the mend tkamppeter
[14:41] <tkamppeter> Now its all OK with me, and the dentist was a long-standing issue, not acute pain.
[14:41] <willcooke> #toipic Trevinho
[14:41] <willcooke> good
[14:41] <willcooke> :)
[14:41] <willcooke> #topic Trevinho
[14:42] <willcooke> Notes for the upcoming meeting:
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Fixed regression in gtk2 theme
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Fixed theming for destructive-action buttons in headerbar
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Fixed theming for *-action buttons in headerbar when maximized
[14:42] <willcooke>  · c-lobrano theme fixes (thanks!) review
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Prepared landing for theme fixes and SRU bugs
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Debugging (and proposed fix, that I want to improve a bit yet)
[14:42] <willcooke>    the tricky st-icon blur/shadow crash
[14:42] <willcooke>    https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=788908
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Fixed a memory leak in mutter
[14:42] <willcooke>    https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789227
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Renamed mutter API get_flatpack_id into
[14:42] <willcooke>    get_sandboxed_app_id (and updated gnome-shell)
[14:42] <willcooke>    https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789277
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Found a way to debug crashes with proper C and JS backtrace
[14:42] <willcooke>    got from a gdb session launched from a normal terminal and
[14:42] <willcooke>    updated the GNOME wiki accordingly (https://is.gd/tddLmH)
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Made patches to make gnome-shell to report better debugging
[14:42] <willcooke>    infos on crashes (pointing out the bad JS code too)
[14:42] <willcooke>    https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789237
[14:42] <willcooke>    and added functions to toggle such debugging from looking glass
[14:42] <willcooke>    https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789377
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Triaging/debugging lots of various top-bugs in errors.u.c and
[14:42] <willcooke>    some GNOME upstream patches reviews
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Got nextcloud-client to the ubuntu snap store with automatic
[14:42] <willcooke>    travis deploy (edge) on new git revisions
[14:42] <willcooke>    https://github.com/nextcloud/client_theming/pull/215
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Fixed dash-to-panel extension that was causing gnome-shell
[14:42] <willcooke>    to crash https://github.com/jderose9/dash-to-panel/pull/263
[14:42] <willcooke>  · Last week here before 2 weeks of offline-vacation in Cuba!
[14:42] <willcooke> 🌴
[14:43] <willcooke> #topic robert_ancell
[14:43] <willcooke> - Short week - public holidays in NZ
[14:43] <willcooke> - GNOME Software snap bug diagnosing / fixing
[14:43] <willcooke> #topic AOB
[14:43] <willcooke> jbicha, want to remind us about the new package and the background there?
[14:44] <jbicha> LP: #1726093 doesn't need a MIR, it's a request for the ubuntu-desktop package to recommend a package to help traditional menu GNOME Shell extensions
[14:45] <jbicha> (& sru that to artful)
[14:46] <willcooke> I think adding it for 18.04 makes sense
[14:46] <willcooke> anyone got any thoughts about SRUing it?
[14:46] <willcooke> or general comments
[14:47] <didrocks> no objection for me
[14:48] <willcooke> oki, sounds like agreement then, but we can discuss more after the meeting if that's the not case
[14:48] <willcooke> any more for any more?  Going in 10...
[14:48] <willcooke> thanks all
[14:48] <willcooke> #endmeeting
[14:48] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 24 14:48:56 2017 UTC.
[14:48] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2017/ubuntu-desktop.2017-10-24-14.30.moin.txt
[14:49] <didrocks> thanks!
[14:49] <seb128> sorry, got sidetracked
[14:49] <seb128> no objection from me to the gmenu gir
[14:49] <seb128> it's a small integration piece
[14:49] <didrocks> (and already in main)
[14:51] <Laney> sure, that seems good
[14:51] <Laney> is it the only case of this problem?
[14:52] <Laney> to put it differently - what happens when the next gir is required?
[14:52] <Laney> might be an upstream report for a better dependency mechanism :-)
[14:52] <Laney> gmenu seems to solve most of the cases we have now
[14:52] <jbicha> some system monitor extensions require gir1.2-gtop-2.0 like https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/gnome-shell-extension-system-monitor
[14:55] <jbicha> gmenu and gtop are the only 2 major ones I am aware of that aren't already pre-installed
[14:56] <Laney> I suppose people avoid writing extensions that rely on external stuff because there's no way to request it
[14:57] <didrocks> would make sense
[14:57] <Laney> maybe it would be terrible if they could :-)
[14:58] <didrocks> well, I wonder how bad you can hack a system via any extensions, what's the extense of the API you have access to
[14:59] <Laney> suppose you get most dangerous shit via glib already
[14:59] <seb128> it could make sense to have a way for them to declare depends
[15:00] <seb128> but not have any packaging management around
[15:00] <seb128> just not load/install the extension if the depends is missing
[15:00] <seb128> and maybe get a way to tell the user that it can't be installed because libbla.so is not installed on the system
[15:00] <Laney> like catch a failed import or something
[15:01] <seb128> yeah, ideally
[15:01] <seb128> maybe have a "check_requirement" function that does the imports/etc and report true/false
[15:01] <seb128> or I don't know
[15:02] <seb128> probably a "nice to have" that we are not going to be able to have resources to work on this cycle
[15:04] <didrocks> would make sense, especially for people installing extensions now from gnome-software
[15:09] <Laney> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789414
[15:10] <Laney> didrocks: hey, thanks for your g-c-c crash fix upload, got some small feedback on it for you - do you want them on irc or in the bug?
[15:12] <didrocks> Laney: as you prefer, here is fine
[15:12] <didrocks> you wanted to reuse the G_*_SWAPPED I guess?
[15:12] <didrocks> but I prefered to keep the delta small
[15:12] <didrocks> and redo that part next cycle
[15:12] <Laney> no, don't point that out to me, I didn't notice it :P
[15:12] <didrocks> ahah ;)
[15:12] <Laney> "you're here about the murder, officeR?"
[15:13] <Laney> *puts away your lost wallet that he found, gets out handcuffs*
[15:13] <didrocks> heh
[15:13] <didrocks> (still something to do next cycle, to simplify callback parameters for _ext)
[15:14] <Laney> ++ g_signal_connect_object (iconsize_adj, "value_changed",
[15:14] <Laney> I think that signal is called value-changed
[15:14] <Laney> (pre-existing issue?)
[15:14] <didrocks> hum, pre-existing issue, I'm surprised it works then
[15:15] <Laney> and on one of the _connect_object calls you pass NULL as the gobject, I think that means it doesn't get disconnected
[15:15] <Laney> it should be the thing to watch even if the callback doesn't use it
[15:15] <Laney> iiuc
[15:16] <didrocks> Laney: ah, true on the NULL one. yeah, on the other one, I don't think it's the callback as I'm updating the gsettings key on that callback, but yeah, worth a look
[15:18] <didrocks> I'll stage the fixes and simplification for bionic already
[15:18] <Laney> neat
[15:18] <didrocks> thx for looking!
[15:18] <Laney> do the widgets get destroyed when you switch away from the panel?
[15:18] <Laney> thanks for the fix!
[15:19] <didrocks> Laney: not immediately, I didn't check more but didn't find in an empiric way when they are disposed
[15:19] <didrocks> should probably look at the code for this, but I guess anyway those fixes were needed
[15:20] <bschaefer> hello, having some fun issues with not being able to log into a tty/vt? (log in and it auto kicks me off?) Happened with a recent update ~last month i would say
[15:20] <seb128> didrocks, btw I just tried, valgrind throws invalid read errors when playing with the settings and swithcing panels
[15:20] <seb128> I'm going to try again latter and check with your patch
[15:20] <Laney> seb128: any panel or the dock one?
[15:20] <seb128> see if that resolves those
[15:20] <seb128> Laney, dock
[15:20] <Laney> ah
[15:20] <seb128> which is what I was trying
[15:21] <seb128> maybe others have the issue as well though
[15:21] <seb128> I'm going to valgrind a bit more later
[15:21] <Laney> I guess you could check this bug by changing the gsettings after switching off the panel
[15:21] <seb128> just did a round on gnome-software and reported 2 invalid read bugs, next g-c-c, then calendar :p
[15:21] <seb128> right
[15:21] <seb128> I'm going to play a bit more with that
[15:22] <didrocks> thx! back in the old days, with you playing with valgrind and others fixing :)
[15:22] <seb128> lol, you got me :p
[15:22] <seb128> I can try helping fixing a few of those
[15:22] <seb128> but I'm less good than you guys with those async/callback/signal issues :-)
[15:23] <seb128> k, on that note I need to go and pick up the little one
[15:23] <seb128> back in half an hour, see you there or tomorrow
[15:24] <Laney> yeah doing ^- makes a critical happen
[15:24] <Laney> see you seb128
[15:40] <didrocks> actually, there is no good reason to use _SWAPPED, so straighforward fix
[15:41] <Laney> :3
[15:44] <willcooke> hi bschaefer, that's an odd one
[15:45] <willcooke> bschaefer, you can log in to a desktop session ok?  And a terminal inside that desktop sesson?
[15:45] <bschaefer> willcooke, yeah my sessions just fine, its just when i try to log into vt/tty
[15:45] <bschaefer> ive yet to try ssh'ing
[15:45]  * bschaefer tries
[15:45] <Laney> anything in the journal?
[15:46] <bschaefer> Laney, i just see a tty3stop/start
[15:46] <bschaefer> Oct 24 08:21:31 bschaefer-ThinkPad-T450s systemd[1]<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Service has no hold-off time, scheduling restart.
[15:46] <bschaefer> Oct 24 08:21:31 bschaefer-ThinkPad-T450s systemd[1]: Stopped Getty on tty3.
[15:46] <bschaefer> Oct 24 08:21:31 bschaefer-ThinkPad-T450s systemd[1]: Started Getty on tty3.
[15:46] <bschaefer> willcooke, yeah i cannot ssh anymore .. access denied
[15:46] <willcooke> ?!
[15:46] <bschaefer> was looking at the Xauth...
[15:46] <bschaefer> and its in a different spot now but ... it seemed valid
[15:47] <willcooke> bschaefer, on 17.10?  And Wayland?
[15:47] <bschaefer> willcooke, 17.10 using ubuntu xorg
[15:47] <Laney> nothing before that?
[15:47] <bschaefer> Laney, yeah let me post the log not sure whats bad/good :)
[15:47] <Laney> I venture this isn't a desktop specific problem but let's see ;-)
[15:48] <bschaefer> Laney, i have ... a rough machine ive somehow kept together since 15.10 upgrading manually :)
[15:48] <bschaefer> Laney, http://paste.ubuntu.com/25810354/
[15:48]  * bschaefer suspects something ... with his overall setup
[15:49] <bschaefer> all i can see is pam seems to close it
[15:49] <bschaefer> but not a why or i dont see errors
[15:50] <Laney> is repowerd still a relevant thing?
[15:50] <bschaefer> hmm no, let me remove it
[15:50] <Laney> some weird messages from it there
[15:51] <mgedmin> bschaefer: what's your shell, according to /etc/passwd?
[15:52] <bschaefer> o actually yeah thats the issue... i has zh
[15:52] <bschaefer> but changed it back
[15:52] <bschaefer> bschaefer:x:1000:1000:bschaefer,,,:/home/bschaefer:/bin/zsh
[15:52] <bschaefer> but it still thinks its the shell?
[15:52] <bschaefer> vs /bin/bash (using chsh to change it)
[15:52] <bschaefer> i would suspect thats the issue (is it'll try /bin/zsh and it wont be there)
[15:53] <Laney> o rite
[15:53] <Laney> I thought you were getting a timeout
[15:53] <bschaefer> that was with ssh... could be a different issue :)
[15:53] <bschaefer> i login, then kicks me right away
[15:54] <Laney> good one mgedmin
[15:54] <bschaefer> mgedmin, there we go, thanks!
[15:54] <bschaefer> strangely i used chsh to change to zsh but i guess it didnt like changing back to bash...
[17:39] <willcooke> night all
[19:23] <oSoMoN> nighty night


[14:24] <stgraber> alkisg: ping
[14:25] <alkisg> Hi stgraber
[14:25] <alkisg> That tftpd thing is a pain :)
[14:25] <stgraber> well, currently I'm debugging some iTalc as it seems the launcher in Karmic is broken with ltsp ;)
[14:26] <alkisg> Ouch. I think I'll move away from iTalc, as I couldn't make it work in my newest lab. It crashed every few seconds...
[14:27] <alkisg> Also the developer isn't really responsive when one sends patches or questions... :-/
[14:27]  * alkisg wishes there were more upstream italc developers
[14:29]  * alkisg just noticed "Karmic" there. stgraber, in which case, exactly?
[14:30] <stgraber> when iTalc runs locally on the thin client
[14:30] <stgraber> I just found what was wrong and fixed it
[14:31] <stgraber> the code to determine isd_host was inside the except determining isd_port
[14:31] <alkisg> Ah. Yeah I think Gadi said something about that a week ago... I don't know, I've never used it this way
[14:31] <stgraber> so basically, if isd_port is set as xprop, it would never look for isd_host
[14:31] <stgraber> anyway, fixed and uploaded to lucid
[14:31] <alkisg> Maybe we should set all the info in the xprop
[14:31] <alkisg> Not just the port, but the ip as well.
[14:31] <alkisg> Ah, ok
[14:32] <alkisg> Were the shutdown/reboot patches included?
[14:32] <stgraber> I don't think so, I'm a bit backlogged on iTalc work.
[14:33] <stgraber> would you be able to propose a branch on LP with everything that you proposed to be included ?
[14:33] <alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/italc/+bug/367960
[14:33] <alkisg> Hmmm does that have to be done before FF?
[14:33] <alkisg> I could have a look at it later on this month, but not right now...
[14:34] <stgraber> no, that's packaging work, I can still upload after FF
[14:34] <alkisg> ok
[14:35] <ogra> stgraber, i'd discuss the tftp issue on ubuntu-devel btw ... the path change was long ago already we just didnt sync it anymore in karmic
[14:35] <alkisg> ogra, so is apache also going to use /srv?
[14:35] <ogra> probably, not sure
[14:36] <ogra> but i know the changes have been discussed in debian a lot back then
[14:36] <ogra> so DDs will know about it and comment if you start a thread on u-devel
[14:36] <alkisg> Ah. If this has been given a fair amount of thought, then maybe the best thing would be to change ltsp to use the new defaults.
[14:37] <ogra> well, lets hear people that participated in the debian discussion :)
[14:37]  * alkisg wonders if ltsp-preinst can preseed tftpd..
[14:37] <ogra> not sure thats policy compliant
[14:38] <ogra> since you cant be sure tftpd isnt already installed
[14:38]  * alkisg asked in ubuntu-devel this morning, but didn't get any answers... so waits for stgraber to make the next move :)
[14:38] <ogra> so you would change an existing setup
[14:38] <alkisg> Why?
[14:38] <ogra> i was talking about the ML :)
[14:38] <alkisg> We could check all the debconf selections and conffiles...
[14:38] <ogra> alkisg, imagine you ahve a server you run since several releases and picked to go with one or the other option ...
[14:39] <ogra> now you install ltsp and the setup is silently changed
[14:39] <alkisg> It'll be stored in debconf, then
[14:39] <alkisg> No need to change his setup
[14:39] <alkisg> I was talking about preseeding for new setups only...
[14:39] <ogra> no need to preseed then
[14:40] <alkisg> For the cd installer, preseeding is needed, we don't want to prompt the user about the path
[14:40] <alkisg> And I wouldn't prompt for new ltsp installations either...
[14:41] <alkisg> (if tftp is installed as part of ltsp-server, then we assume we know where we want tftpdir to be)
[14:41] <stgraber> alkisg: so you sent an e-mail to ubuntu-devel ?
[14:42] <alkisg> stgraber: no - just the irc channell :)
[14:42] <alkisg> I'm not subscribed to the ML
[14:42] <sbalneav> Morning all
[14:47] <stgraber> ok, I'll send an e-mail to ubuntu-devel then
[14:47] <sbalneav> Did I read a bug report email correctly today?
[14:47] <sbalneav> That edubuntu's live dvd *only* and no alternative install dvd?
[14:47] <sbalneav> i.e. the text based one?
[14:48] <alkisg> According to cjwatson, we're now completely graphical :) No more text-based edubuntu...
[14:48] <stgraber> ogra, alkisg: I'll pastebin it for both of you to read
[14:49] <alkisg> Thanks
[14:49] <sbalneav> I don't like that at all.
[14:50] <alkisg> sbalneav, there's still the live dvd for text based installations...
[14:50] <sbalneav> But the alternative dvd had all the actual packages on them, and could be easily used for ltsp chroot building.
[14:50] <alkisg> I think Edubuntu is more targeted to teachers, who don't really like text... they get too much of it for their lessons already :P
[14:51] <alkisg> (or students, etc etc)
[14:51] <sbalneav> Was this discussed somewhere?
[14:51] <ogra> you take away the tasksel option with that
[14:51] <alkisg> In the last few meetings?
[14:51] <ogra> which has no graphical equivalent
[14:52] <alkisg> Can't one use the live dvd to install ubuntu, and then tasksel install edubuntu-desktop-gnome on top of that?
[14:52]  * alkisg wasn't the one that put the "no text installer" idea, but supports it...
[14:52] <ogra> yes, but you cant install a plain server that gives you a LAMP and mail machine for example
[14:52] <ogra> so you exclude all advanced school admins
[14:53] <ogra> the kind of people that dont want a gui on their server
[14:53] <ogra> before you could do both from the same DVD
[14:53] <alkisg> ? why would advanced school admins that want to install a LAMP / mail server use the edubuntu dvd and not the server one?
[14:53] <ogra> because its already on there and they only need to do one download
[14:53] <stgraber> sbalneav: LTSP will be moved in the Live environment. Classroom server wasn't used and had a lot of issues so we chose to drop it for this time and potentially add it back later.
[14:54] <ogra> you simply force edubuntu into that GIU only side now
[14:54] <alkisg> ogra: yes, and save 2 Gb downloads for all teachers/students...
[14:54] <ogra> which excludes university adimns advanced shool admins etc
[14:54] <ogra> ??
[14:55] <alkisg> I mean, if a student wants to download edubuntu, why would he have to download 2 gb more just to support an admin who can use the server cd?
[14:56] <alkisg> (and I believe there will be more students using edubuntu than admins...)
[14:56] <ogra> well, all i'm saying is that you exclude a lot of people and opportunities that were covered before
[14:56] <ogra> what you actually want is a liveCD apparently
[14:56] <ogra> not an edubuntu DVD with all its benefits
[14:56] <alkisg> A live edubuntu dvd, yes...
[14:56] <ogra> but thats up to you guys
[14:56] <alkisg> Not a CD - edu apps don't fit to a single cd
[14:56] <ogra> i'm just pointing out ...
[14:57] <ogra> i think its a big mistake, but your choice
[14:57] <alkisg> Doesn't the ubuntu live cd cover all those cases?
[14:57] <alkisg> (i.e. the admin that wants to install a lamp server etc?)
[14:58]  * ogra somehow thinks he understood that "its own special edu distro again" wrongly
[14:58] <stgraber> ogra, sbalneav, alkisg: http://pastebin.com/m2a29411e
[14:58] <ogra> and specifically all the fuss that went on recently in this channel about a perfect ldap setup, web driven user maintenance etc etc
[14:59] <ogra> stgraber, wow, i wasnt aware of that version jump :)
[14:59] <alkisg> stgraber: syntax error there? "especially has it's very likely to break"
[14:59] <stgraber> alkisg: indeed, fixed.
[15:00] <alkisg> I think I'd also ask about apache - I think those changes should be synchronized...
[15:00] <ogra> stgraber, looks good (apart from the typo)
[15:01] <alkisg> I.e. they should both move to /srv at the same time, or not at all...
[15:01] <alkisg> (i.e. maybe we should leave tftp as it is for now, and change it later, when apache in ubuntu is ready for the change)
[15:01] <ogra> alkisg, well, follow up on stephanes mail then with that concern
[15:02] <ogra> sounds valid to me
[15:02] <ogra> but should be seen by more eyes
[15:02] <stgraber> ogra: well, experience showed that university and other cases where you want the server side of Edubuntu currently don't use our DVD as using netboot (mini.iso) is a lot faster. I'm clearly not against shipping a well designed and working Edubuntu server and we'll have that included as soon as we have someone working on it (but I'd avoid shipping the whole desktop twice though)
[15:02] <alkisg> Mhmok, /me subscribes to the the ML...
[15:03] <ogra> stgraber, well, but that means if you got it in L+1 you have to reverse all you do in L
[15:03] <alkisg> This one? (it isn't in launchpad?) https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
[15:03] <ogra> seems a waste of work to me
[15:03] <ogra> alkisg, the core lists are mostly in mailman :)
[15:03] <alkisg> k, ty
[15:03] <ogra> and yes, that one
[15:04] <stgraber> ogra: for Lucid, the main focus is to have the desktop updated, good looking, having a possibility to get the netbook interface and LTSP in a more user friendly way. Then I'm fine with improving the server side in the upcoming releases assuming we have people commiting to work on that.
[15:04] <ogra> well, the most discussions i have seen in the channel over the last weeks were by people intrested in contributing to a slick server solution
[15:04] <stgraber> ogra: well, not really, I wouldn't revert the LTSP change or that repository change. We'd just add what's needed for a server install to the seed and for LTSP, use the chroot that's already included on the DVD
[15:05] <stgraber> ogra: the LDAP stuff is sbalneav's plan for 12.04 IIRC
[15:05] <ogra> i'm not talking LTSP here :)
[15:05] <ogra> and i didnt mean sbalneav who is swamped in other work
[15:05] <ogra> all persons that expressed interest in joining the team newly seemed to have some server based interests
[15:06] <alkisg> Any names?
[15:06] <ogra> joerg_ for example
[15:06] <ogra> i saw at least three other guys in hot discussions here
[15:06] <alkisg> I think joerg_ wanted a web-based frontend
[15:06] <ogra> imho the change you plan simply excludes that part of the community
[15:07] <alkisg> That can even be included in the live dvd... you don't need a text based installer for that..
[15:07] <ogra> alkisg, how would he get that without the ability to install a webserver ?
[15:07] <alkisg> Why wouldn't he be able to install a web server?
[15:07] <ogra> well, as i said its beyond me to discuss that
[15:07] <ogra> i'm totally swamped in other stuff and surely dont contribute much but my opinion to edubuntu anymore ...
[15:08] <alkisg> Your opinion is always welcome
[15:08] <ogra> i just expressed that opinion ... seems the decision happened anyway :)
[15:08] <ogra> i just think its a failure
[15:08] <alkisg> ...but personally I don't understand why those things can't be done from a graphical installer...
[15:08] <ogra> and wanted to mention that with no offense to anyone or even that decision
[15:08] <ogra> because it doesnt have that ability
[15:08] <ogra> its a live image installer
[15:09]  * alkisg didn't take part on that decision. He just thinks it was a good decision...
[15:09] <ogra> and it wont grow that ability
[15:09] <stgraber> ogra: I guess we'll see how it works. I don't think it's a bad choice for Lucid and everyone seemed happy with it (both at UDS and during meetings). I personaly always had in mind that the Content server or whatever we call it will come back in the near future.
[15:09] <alkisg> ogra, can't a live cd install a web server if it uses the cd as a package source?
[15:10] <ogra> alkisg, no, not as its designed atm, it has to be in the live image so everyomne (even desktop installs) gets it
[15:10] <stgraber> alkisg: it could and we'll do something like that for the netbook interface and LTSP, though I guess in most case you don't want the whole UI for a web server.
[15:10] <ogra> the live installer copies the live image 1:1 and then removes the unneeded bits
[15:11] <ogra> you will need to redesign ubiquity for such additional features
[15:11] <ogra> or have multiple live images
[15:11] <alkisg> But afaik there *are* some packages in the live ubuntu cd... which doesn't have a text based installer... or did I get that wrong?
[15:11] <ogra> all duplicating themselves
[15:11] <sbalneav> So, basically, for people in countries with poor internet access, if they get someone to mail them an Edubuntu dvd, they can't use it to build the ltsp image.
[15:11] <sbalneav> this is a huge loss.
[15:12] <ogra> alkisg, you have a /pool directory on the live CD from which you can apt-get install packages manually for non networked systems
[15:12] <joerg_> poor countries like germany :)
[15:12] <joerg_> with 64kbit isdn internet connections :D
[15:12] <ogra> joerg_, ++
[15:12] <ogra> :)
[15:12] <stgraber> ogra: that's true though we'll hack a bit around that (lacking the time to properly patch ubiquity) so the user gets prompted to install the netbook interface and/or LTSP.
[15:12] <stgraber> after ubiquity is done
[15:12] <ogra> you are aware that netboot and desktop dont work well together
[15:12] <stgraber> sbalneav: that's not true, a generated ltsp.img will be on the DVD and will be unpacked if the user choses to install LTSP
[15:12] <ogra> at least in a switchable way
[15:12] <ogra> ?
[15:13] <stgraber> ogra: yes, that's why it will only be installed if the user choses to after the install, the packages won't be installed otherwise
[15:13] <ogra> not sure if the desktop team fixed that but we had to remove the ability to switch completely because it broke all sorts of things
[15:13] <sbalneav> stgraber: and if the user then wants to install something like Firefox in the chroot for localapps?
[15:13] <ogra> (in karmic that is)
[15:14] <ogra> sbalneav, he would have to do that post install from an online archive ...
[15:14] <stgraber> sbalneav: indeed, that's the case where we'll have a bit less functionality than we used to have. He'll have to download firefox and its dependencies in this csae.
[15:14] <ogra> but definately not from the DVD
[15:14] <alkisg> sbalneav: he can do all that with the live ubuntu dvd, can't he? Shouldn't edubuntu target different needs than the live ubuntu dvd?
[15:15] <ogra> alkisg, he cant
[15:15] <sbalneav> ogra: right, but with the alt dvd, s/he could just grab the package from there.
[15:15] <ogra> alkisg, you dont have packages on a live image (unless you explicitly put them into /pool, which you guys just disabled)
[15:15] <ogra> sbalneav, exactly my point :)
[15:15] <alkisg> ogra, I said the *ubuntu* dvd, not the edubuntu one..
[15:15] <stgraber> ogra: he said "ubuntu" not "edubuntu" :) and yes the Ubuntu DVD covers that
[15:15] <alkisg> Doesn't that have all the packages?
[15:16] <ogra> alkisg, sure, if he wants to download another 4G
[15:16] <sbalneav> I personally, in my travels to Brazil, know of, and have worked with, people who are setting up LTSP labs in areas where there is NO internet access.  They have to truck everything in on a CD/DVD
[15:16] <ogra> so you already excluded the parts of the world that had the most edubuntu users by switching to DVD ... now you exclude even more ...
[15:17] <sbalneav> Right, I was about to say, the move to dvd was probably jarring enough for these people.
[15:17] <ogra> yeah
[15:18] <sbalneav> They may be able to borrow dvd players, but you just can't get internet in the Amazon interior
[15:18] <ogra> or africa
[15:18] <alkisg> So what did edubuntu offer to these countries that the live ubuntu dvd didn't ?
[15:18] <sbalneav> A proper package archive with all the packages that they could add with apt-cd
[15:18] <sbalneav> the live filesystem doesn't have those packages.
[15:18] <alkisg> That's on the ubuntu dvd, and has more packages than edubuntu.
[15:19] <alkisg> Anything else?
[15:19] <sbalneav> Now they need two dvds
[15:19] <alkisg> No, just one
[15:19] <ogra> alkisg, back then they could get it from shipit ... it was a CD for which they rather easily could find something to isntall the media from
[15:19] <alkisg> The ubuntu dvd...
[15:19] <ogra> now you need internet for two DVDs, a DVD writer and player
[15:19] <alkisg> Why two dvds? Why isn't the ubuntu dvd enough?
[15:19] <sbalneav> So we're telling people they need two dvds?  One to install Edubuntu from, and then one Ubuntu dvd for the packages?
[15:20] <ogra> heh
[15:20] <ogra> anyway, i need to go back to work ... FF approaching quickly ... i expressed my concerns
[15:20] <ogra> decision is yours :)
[15:21] <sbalneav> I mean, before, we could just tell these people: you need the alternative install dvd.  You don't get the graphical installer, but you DO get everything you need to setup a full lab WITHOUT an internet connection.
[15:21] <alkisg> And they can still do that with JUST the ubuntu live dvd.
[15:22] <ogra> and how do they get their edubuntu desktop ?
[15:22] <sbalneav> Then we're driving them away from Edubuntu
[15:23] <alkisg> (btw, that's what teachers here are doing in places with 64kbps connections - they're using the ubuntu dvd)
[15:24] <sbalneav> right, so if we generated the edubuntu alternate dvd, they wouldn't have to.
[15:24] <alkisg> sbalneav: also, that was not true. There was no language support in the alternate cd. That was only true for english speaking countries..
[15:24] <alkisg> They'd still need internet access or an additional media.
[15:24] <ogra> on the dvd ??
[15:25] <sbalneav> Right, which is why I've ALSO been arguing that we should be using the space on the dvd NOT FOR SILLY PRE-PACKAGED LTSP CHROOTS!!!!11one, but for mor langpacks
[15:25] <sbalneav> since you can GENERATE the ltsp chroot from the dvd
[15:25] <alkisg> I think stgraber has put all the langpacks now.
[15:25] <sbalneav> Great.  As it should be.
[15:25] <sbalneav> That was the greatest failing of the cd.
[15:26] <stgraber> yeah, I spent a week fixing the langpacks
[15:27] <ogra> has anyone tested the ltsp-live setup with more than one client ?
[15:27] <stgraber> sbalneav: do you think people installing things in the chroot is really that much of an issue ? Do they have people powerful enough for localapps in country where they don't have fast internet ?
[15:28] <stgraber> sbalneav: if it's really an issue, I don't have any problem putting a fat-client image on the DVD instead with the fat-client mode turned off, that way they'll have everything in it and can enable these localapps when they want
[15:28] <sbalneav> They probably don't, but why should we limit that case.
[15:28] <sbalneav> Here's my opinion, FWIW:
[15:28] <stgraber> ogra: that's on highvoltage's todo list
[15:28] <ogra> stgraber, i tried something like that back in the days and it was unusable ...
[15:28] <ogra> but probably CD roms are more speedy nowadays
[15:29] <alkisg> ogra: ltsp in a live dvd? I tried it 2 months ago, it worked fine.
[15:29] <sbalneav> 1) I won't argue with a live boot.  Personally, I don't use it.  I'd rather install text mode.  However, text mode SHOULD be available as a last resort for people with broken video.
[15:29] <stgraber> ogra: I'd also expect that the machine used for that has more RAM (at least 2GB), so caching will make it a lot faster. But that's still to be tested.
[15:30] <sbalneav> 2) The DVD should have a proper APT archive, so that ALL packages that we ship can be installed from the DVD, regardless of internet connection status.
[15:30] <ogra> alkisg, with more than one person using it
[15:30] <sbalneav> 3) ALL langpacks should be there *by default*.
[15:31] <alkisg> ogra, my squashfs was 1 Gb, it could easily be loaded in RAM, all of it..
[15:31] <alkisg> (the casper one)
[15:31] <alkisg> I can't imagine any ltsp servers with less than 2 gb
[15:31] <ogra> the point is that it isnt by default, what did you add to casper to achieve that ?
[15:32] <ogra> its mounted only from the CD
[15:32] <sbalneav> If we have to sacrifice a live boot, or live ltsp chroot to obtain 2 and 3, then, In My Humble Opinion, thats what should happen, because 2 and 3 ensure that we can bring Edubuntu to *the widest possible audience*.  I don't care about bling and first impressions.  I care about making sure it's available to everyone.
[15:32] <ogra> if you start FF or OOo it will just be darn slow
[15:32] <XuzhouJim> Hi all, new here. Still wrestling with that audio feedback thing. "Solved" it by unplugging the mic, but I want students to be able to use the mic. I'm a little confused as to how to edit the lts.conf. I know there are two, one requiring an image remake. Found that one at: /opt/ltsp/i386/etc and it referred me to: var/lib/tfftp/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
[15:32] <sbalneav> But that's just me.
[15:32] <ogra> sbalneav, and me :)
[15:33] <alkisg> ogra, nothing. I just told the teachers/testers not to take into account the speed on the first 15 minutes of using the dvd, but only after that...
[15:33] <ogra> heh
[15:33] <ogra> great if you have a 20min presentation
[15:33] <ogra> which i thought was the only purpose of the live-ltsp
[15:33] <alkisg> I don't :) I have teachers that want to test if their labs are suitable for ltsp.
[15:33] <XuzhouJim> However, no lts.conf there but pxelinux.cfg/default
[15:34]  * stgraber has to run to a meeting, was great hearing everyone's opinion and we'll have to consider some options to take that into account. Would have been better to know that at UDS time though ;)
[15:34] <ogra> stgraber, i wasnt aware of that plan, sorry
[15:34] <alkisg> Bye stgraber
[15:34] <ogra> XuzhouJim, you can create the file if you need it
[15:35] <alkisg> sbalneav: I think the plan is to have all of the 3 things you mentioned
[15:35] <alkisg> (except for the last resort == text mode :D)
[15:36] <XuzhouJim> do I need section headings or just MIC_VOLUME=10 and VOLUME=50?
[15:36] <alkisg> You need a [Default] section heading
[15:37] <XuzhouJim> indent section headings or just options?
[15:37] <alkisg> [Default]
[15:37] <alkisg> MIC_VOLUME=10
[15:37] <alkisg> VOLUME=50
[15:37] <alkisg> Put that in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf.
[15:38] <XuzhouJim> OK, BRB
[16:04] <XuzhouJim> OK, that did something but now I can't get the mic to record. Can I get the mic to work WITHOUT the feedback squeel?
[16:12] <sbalneav> XuzhouJijm: is it just a case that the volume's too low?
[16:12] <sbalneav> If you're using a mic, you really should be using headphones.
[16:13] <XuzhouJijm> I adjusted the input volume. Then I can hear background noise but no voice. Am using a headphone/mic combo
[16:13] <ogra> great ... stgraber has support from the server team on the tftp issue ... good sign
[16:14] <sbalneav> You're getting feedback.... with headphones?! Wow.
[16:14] <XuzhouJijm> Sorry, didn't explain well.
[16:14] <Ahmuck> ping
[16:15] <XuzhouJijm> The mic is being routed through the speaker/headphone. With headphones no feedback but stiil get too much noise. When I set mic_volume=10, don't get the background noise but can't record either.
[16:17] <XuzhouJijm> Is it just a matter of playing with the mic_volume and volume settings till  I get a good balance?
[16:19] <sbalneav> I'd say, yes.
[16:19] <sbalneav> Go up by 5's I'd say, so try 15, 20, etc.
[16:29] <alkisg> XuzhouJijm: afaik there's a problem with sound initialization - it has to be low to get rid of the feedback, but after the initialization it should be high again, and it isn't.
[16:29] <alkisg> XuzhouJijm: if you use the mixer while recording your voice, and raise the mic volume, doesn't it work ok?
[16:29] <alkisg> Or do you get feedback then as well?
[16:34] <XuzhouJijm> raising the mic volume in the mixer just records a background buzz, no voice.
[16:36] <XuzhouJijm> Can you point me to the section I should read up on in the LTSPManual?
[18:24] <lns_> stgraber: ping? you remember https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp-cluster/+bug/178895/comments/29 ?
[19:12] <lns_> sbalneav: ping?
[19:12] <sbalneav> lns_: pong
[19:15] <lns_> sbalneav: hey - did you get my msg last night re: session time limits in gnome?
[19:17] <sbalneav> No, I didn't
[19:33] <sbalneav> lns_: Can you repaste?
[19:34] <lns_> sbalneav: well basically I was wondering if something such as a "user session time limit", whether it be per day/week/month/etc, is something that might want to go into Gnome itself, or a separate utility that could be developed
[19:38] <alkisg> lns_, have you looked at gnome nanny?
[19:39] <lns_> alkisg: yep, I haven't used it at all though - are you using it?
[19:39] <alkisg> lns_, no, (I've installed it once but didn't get to use it), but it does have session time limit support...
[19:39] <lns_> It seems to be kind of geared toward a very specific audience (small children who need access restrictions)
[19:39] <alkisg> And even for specific hours per day, if one needs it
[19:39] <lns_> It would seem strange to install something like that in a high school
[19:40] <alkisg> So I guess code could be taken from there (under a different UI, of course...)
[19:40] <alkisg> lns_: why? I don't think it's necessary for the UI to be shown to the students
[19:40] <lns_> alkisg: not just students but staff perception...
[19:41] <alkisg> Anyway, I didn't use it so I can't express any opinions - just thought I'd give the link :)
[19:41] <lns_> alkisg: thx =) Yeah I looked a bit at it but it seems like something like user session time limits could be something real easy to implement (maybe?) outside of this big program
[19:43] <sbalneav> yeah, I was going to say, nanny's already there.
[19:44] <lns_> sbalneav: have you used it?
[19:50] <lns_> looks like you can only install via source - no packaging/integration...this is something that i've had many requests for in the past
[19:51] <lns_> with a dist. like edubuntu it would be really neat to have that kind of functionality ootb
[19:51] <sbalneav> I beleive they have a ppa, if not, I'll look at packaging it.
[19:52] <sbalneav> I haven't had time to play with it, but I know it does time restrictions.
[19:52] <lns_> yeah i saw a screenie on their site, it looks neat
[19:52] <lns_> nice little graph with green/red bars to show when someone can log in and when they can't
[19:53] <lns_> i was thinking "hmm, pessulus integration"... ;)
[19:53] <alkisg> It does have ubuntu packages, I installed it from their ppa
[19:54]  * lns_ googles
[19:55] <lns_> goes down to jaunty, not bad
[19:55]  * lns_ is starting to mentally ditch the idea that anyone wants to do anything for hardy anymore ;)
[19:55] <lns_> https://launchpad.net/~guadalinex-members/+archive/ppa/+packages


[02:10] <hexmode> czajkowski: ??
[06:40] <dholbach> good morning
[14:10] <hexmode> czajkowski: just sent you an email :)
[14:10]  * hexmode wants to make sure he's communicating
[14:11] <czajkowski> yes I got it
[14:19] <hexmode> heh
[14:21] <czajkowski> just in the middle of stuff
[14:21] <czajkowski> hexmode: I think posting it to the list would be a good idea
[14:21] <czajkowski> help get discssions and folks on board
[14:22] <hexmode> yeah... ok.  I wasn't trying to rush you.  Sorry.  My emails seemed to be disasperating, is all.
[14:36] <txwikinger> Morning dholbach
[14:37] <dholbach> hi txwikinger
[14:37] <txwikinger> dholbach: Everyody going to UDS with train?
[14:40] <dholbach> a couple of people, yes
[14:42] <txwikinger> Well.. I thought all the airports will be closed again
[14:42] <dholbach> parts of the uk afaik
[14:44] <txwikinger> We don't get any news about it anymore.. I guess it becomes boring after a while
[14:45] <dholbach> http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=0&pz=1&cf=all&ned=de&hl=de&q=flugverkehr&oq=flugv
[14:45] <dholbach> :-)


[02:23]  * Unit193 waves to Omnifrog.
[02:23] <Omnifrog> o/
[02:32] <Unit193> Omnifrog: I did a few manual installs in vbox, it can be quite fun.  I kind of wrote up a doc on it, but of course don't want to be linking to it in an official support channel.  :P
[02:42] <Unit193> Ubiquity comes with those shiny buttons.
[02:42] <Omnifrog> oh, I'm just being an ass , nevermind me
[02:42] <Omnifrog> I was genuinely curious
[02:43] <Omnifrog> it seems like a thing Linux should have
[02:43] <Unit193> Also: ArchLinux.
[02:43] <Unit193> :P
[02:45] <Omnifrog> I've had multi boot systems since the 90's and it never occurred to me that that option should be a feature till tonight
[02:45] <Unit193> IMO, it's a fun way to install, though encrypted LVM does indeed make it a tad harder.
[02:46] <Unit193> However, ubiquity's decompressing an already installed system from a squashfs and running a few postinstall scripts is certainly faster...
[02:50] <Omnifrog> I dont really have a need for encryption right now
[02:50] <Unit193> My netbook leaves the house, I don't like that it leaves the house unencrypted.
[02:51] <Omnifrog> I rarely leave the house with such devices
[02:51] <Omnifrog> I still have a flip phone and there are no plans for that to change
[02:52] <Unit193> No cell, people can contact you that way.  I don't like people. :----D
[02:52] <Omnifrog> when I'm on the go I want the dumbest tech possible in my pocket
[02:53] <Omnifrog> heh
[02:54] <Omnifrog> this must be the Ted Kaczynski support group
[18:24] <cyberanger> lol
[18:32] <cyberanger> Omnifrog: That's a good one.
[20:18]  * cyberanger gives krytarik the boot
[20:19] <krytarik> :)
[20:19]  * cyberanger couldn't fit in those boots anymore anyways ;-)
[20:21] <krytarik> 12s?  They'd fit me if so.
[20:22] <cyberanger> lol
[23:14] <minasota> Why does this channel exist? lol, it's kind of lame "ubunut-us-tn" really??
[23:20] <minasota> At least be honest and rename it
[23:40] <Omnifrog> you cant rename it
[23:42] <Omnifrog> just ask chanserv
[23:43] <minasota> Ted could rename it
[23:44] <Omnifrog> Ted's not here
[23:45] <Omnifrog> also, the new HDD, SSD and DVD drives are here! so time to rip this box apart and get to some much needed maintenance!
[23:45] <Omnifrog> bbib
[23:45] <Unit193> Nice, have fun.
[23:46] <minasota> Who here has a steady job?
[23:57] <minasota> Unit193: NRBD OSAR KUOD WSN4 IODA YND5
[23:59] <Unit193> Pretty sure that's not English.


[09:07] <pragomer> what is an actual tutorial for creating a live-usb-flasdrive with persistent functions? I want to use the xubuntu 18.04 iso
[09:08] <cfhowlett> !persistence
[09:24] <pragomer> thank you very much
[09:28] <pragomer> does the filesystem have to be ext3 like in the tutorial described
[09:28] <pragomer> or is ext4 also ok?
[09:29] <cfhowlett> ext4 is the current default.  that link must be outdated
[09:30] <pragomer> ok. thank you again so much :-)
[09:31] <cfhowlett> yep, hasn't been updated since 2014
[09:50] <petaflot> hello! I am facing a rather curious issue. after upgrading my system to bionic, the display manager ran a loop (using startx worked though)
[09:51] <petaflot> I read some posts about purging lightdm configuration, which I did, but now I cannot seem to find either lightdm or slim or xdm in apt
[10:26] <lapaga> petaflot, what does apt list lightdm say?
[10:45] <pmjdebruijn> I noticed lightlocker briefly switches to console when locking my desktop, presumably that's not intended behavior? is this a known issue?
[10:45] <pmjdebruijn> practically it's just a nuisance, not a huge issue, but I'm curious
[10:51] <alpha_Aquilae> pmjdebruijn: are you login in console background your desktop
[10:51] <alpha_Aquilae> ?
[11:14] <pmjdebruijn> alpha_Aquilae: sorry I don't understand
[12:26] <pmjdebruijn> does anybody have any insight on how the official xubuntu isos are generated
[12:27] <pmjdebruijn> when I use live-build to generate a slightly customized iso, I end up with ubuntu isolinux logos as opposed to xubuntu
[12:27] <pmjdebruijn> as far as I can tell the xubuntu syslinux.isolinux themes aren't in the repos ?
[16:59] <baldor> Hi ! I've been using xubuntu for a long time, and I currently have a strange bug (17.10, xfce 4.12)
[16:59] <baldor> when I run an app in whisker that was already opened, the window comes in front of the other window, but the focus is still on the previous window
[17:00] <baldor> so when I press for example Alt+F4, it closes the old window (that's not in front)
[17:02] <baldor> any idea how I could force the window that comes in front to get focus ?


[23:52] <weedlight> Any ubuntustudio developer here?
[23:53] <weedlight> I'm asking because I'm developing an audio sequencer http://ags.sf.net