[06:21] <astraljava> No new images so far. :-/
[06:25] <Unit193> I think it's too early for that
[07:18] <astraljava> Ahhh yeah, might be. Just recalled seeing times like 09:16, but obviously they were of UTC. :)
[07:19] <Unit193> Yeah... It's just after 3am here
[07:20] <astraljava> But it's 07:20 UTC, so I'll check back in two hours or so.
[08:43] <astraljava> Well, still no, even though Studio got theirs.
[08:45] <astraljava> I see, could still be a timing thing. There seems to be 4 hours difference between their rollouts.
[13:19] <thauriswulfa> hi guys, what knowledge should I possess to participate in xubuntu development, languages I current know includes, c/cpp,java
[13:20] <TheSheep> thauriswulfa: you don't need to know anything to start
[13:20] <thauriswulfa> then.......
[13:20] <TheSheep> http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
[14:47] <charlie-tca> Good morning
[15:26] <charlie-tca> No new desktop images today
[15:27] <ochosi> hm, can anyone confirm that xfpm's notifications don't show an icon in natty?
[15:30] <charlie-tca> Did that just start?
[15:30] <charlie-tca> It works on my laptop here
[15:32] <ochosi> hm, ok
[15:32] <ochosi> then i have to check what's wrong here
[15:33] <ochosi> yeah, i'm not entirely sure, i just noticed
[15:36] <charlie-tca> Maybe it is recent, then.
[15:36] <charlie-tca> I haven't looked in a few days
[15:40] <micahg> charlie-tca: hopefully the debootstrap issue got sorted/will get sorted today
[15:40] <charlie-tca> which one is that?
[15:40] <charlie-tca> micahg: I am supposed to remind you about java
[15:40] <charlie-tca> I think
[15:40] <micahg> charlie-tca: thanks, but I can't do it today :(, will try to catch mvo tomorrow
[15:43] <charlie-tca> Okeydokey
[17:04] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel at 19:00 UTC today. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[17:59] <astraljava> Hey gang, will make it to the meeting, just gonna be AFK until then. Forgot to zsync images during the afternoon at the office, so can't test today, sorry.
[18:01] <Unit193> I don't have scrollback anymore, but I think charlie-tca said there were no images
[18:02] <micahg> no images, deboostrap failure
[18:02] <micahg> *debootstrap
[18:03] <astraljava> Oh okay, thought he said "no desktop image".
[18:04] <charlie-tca> No desktop images
[18:04] <charlie-tca> alternate images are working
[18:15] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 45 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[18:16] <charlie-tca> Sorry, trying to cut the grass before the meeting, doesn't look like it will be done, though.
[19:01]  * charlie-tca looks around for those here for a meeting
[19:01] <beardygnome> o/
[19:02] <astraljava> o/
[19:02] <beardygnome> finally getting a chance to attend again
[19:02]  * charlie-tca looks at the beardy guy... seems like he saw him before ;)
[19:02] <charlie-tca> #startmeeting
[19:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jul 11 19:02:56 2011 UTC.  The chair is charlie-tca. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
[19:02] <meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
[19:03] <charlie-tca> WOOT! a meeting bot!
[19:03] <charlie-tca> Thanks to the efforts of AlanBell, we now have a bot to record the meeting
[19:04] <micahg> o/
[19:04] <charlie-tca> Our agenda, as usual, is found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:04] <charlie-tca> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:04] <charlie-tca> hm, maybe I broke it already
[19:05] <charlie-tca> Well, for those interested:
[19:05] <charlie-tca> * Old business
[19:05] <charlie-tca> * Team updates
[19:05] <charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
[19:05] <charlie-tca>   * Bug Triage & Testing
[19:05] <charlie-tca>   * Website & Marketing
[19:05] <charlie-tca>   * Artwork
[19:05] <charlie-tca>   * Documentation
[19:05] <charlie-tca> * Announcements
[19:05] <charlie-tca> * Governance structure
[19:05] <charlie-tca> * Any Other Business
[19:05]  * pleia2 waves
[19:06] <charlie-tca> and, in the interest of determining what is happening, please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
[19:06] <charlie-tca> Let's try that and see if it works for us
[19:06] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
[19:06] <meetingology> TOPIC: Old business
[19:07] <charlie-tca> We are putting together a "Top 10" questions and answers FAQ. We would very much like to have that on the website
[19:08] <charlie-tca> If possible, we would even like to rotate these FAQ's so there are new ones for people to read
[19:08] <charlie-tca> Is is possible to do something like "fortune"?
[19:09] <charlie-tca> ..
[19:09] <astraljava> Worth investigating.
[19:09] <beardygnome> what is "fortune"?
[19:09] <astraljava> Shouldn't be more than adding a dictionary for it.
[19:09] <beardygnome> ..
[19:09] <astraljava> ..
[19:09] <charlie-tca> A set of statements, that can be rotated daily on your computer
[19:10] <pleia2> does anyone actually find them useful?
[19:10] <charlie-tca> faq's?
[19:10] <charlie-tca> yes
[19:10] <pleia2> no, the ones on your computer
[19:10] <beardygnome> oh, like a fortune cookie
[19:10] <beardygnome> ..
[19:10] <charlie-tca> It will be the most asked questions from mailing list, #xubuntu, and forums
[19:10] <charlie-tca> I did enjoy them when I had them working
[19:10] <pleia2> I like the idea of a FAQ page on the site, not so sure about rotating fortune things anywhere
[19:11] <charlie-tca> not the fortune statements, rotating the FAQ's?
[19:11] <beardygnome> me either, might get confusing for people
[19:11] <charlie-tca> If we have 100 most asked questions, we should rotate them so only 10 at time show up
[19:11] <pleia2> well I don't like "tips" things in general, I particularly won't like them if it's a FAQ about getting to sound to work when my sound works fine :)
[19:12] <pleia2> in fact, it may make me think something is wrong, "my sound is working, is it such a big problem for xubuntu?"
[19:12] <beardygnome> i agree
[19:12] <charlie-tca> So, having the question and answer there would be bad?
[19:12] <beardygnome> if we have 100, isn't that more of a knowledgebase?
[19:12] <beardygnome> i think question and answer is good
[19:12] <charlie-tca> 100 is a number
[19:12] <pleia2> Q&A FAQ on the website is fine, as "tips" on your desktop I don't like
[19:12] <beardygnome> but not having them rotating
[19:13] <charlie-tca> our goal right now is the top 10
[19:13] <charlie-tca> but will the top 10 always be the same question?
[19:13] <jarnos> Best is to have Xubuntu so easy to use it does not need an FAQ.
[19:13] <charlie-tca> jarnos: reality, please
[19:13] <pleia2> I think we should just stick with ~10 for now and go from there
[19:13] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu will be that easy, but Xfce probably is not going to make it that simple, ever.
[19:14] <jarnos> charlie-tca, the FAQ could be integrated in user interface.
[19:14] <charlie-tca> and how will that attract users to the website?
[19:14] <jarnos> charlie-tca, it doesn't
[19:14] <charlie-tca> goal here is to get users to the website, not to their computer
[19:14] <pleia2> maybe we should focus on getting these FAQ written and on the website, and then think about putting them in the help docs on the system sometime later?
[19:15] <charlie-tca> That is a good goal
[19:15] <charlie-tca> I would expect these things to already in help, but users don't really look for docs, do they?
[19:16] <pleia2> I suspect most people just do a google search
[19:16] <charlie-tca> At least, judging by the number of bug reports for out of date docs in karmic, lucid, and maverick, I don't think they do.
[19:17] <astraljava> google is too vague and confusing.
[19:17] <charlie-tca> pleia2: we will plan for these to be on the website, then, right?
[19:17] <pleia2> charlie-tca: yes
[19:17] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[19:17] <charlie-tca> next, we have
[19:17] <charlie-tca>  * start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc - Carried Forward
[19:17] <charlie-tca> ochosi: did we start this?
[19:18] <charlie-tca> and we are still calling for
[19:18] <charlie-tca>  * All teams need to review website content
[19:18] <charlie-tca>   * insure http://xubuntu.org/contribute is up to date for each team
[19:19] <charlie-tca> If you have the ability to update anything there, please make corrections and email them to us. You can send updates to the xubuntu-devel mailing list, charlie-tca AT ubuntu DOT com or post them and give us the URL
[19:19] <charlie-tca> Any questions?
[19:20] <charlie-tca> micahg: who do go to for  * we will look at getting pavucontrol in the sound preferences
[19:20] <pleia2> re: contribute you can also submit a bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website
[19:20] <jarnos> charlie-tca, when I started to use ubuntu, Xubuntu had easier-to-user panels and menu than Ubuntu, in my opinion.
[19:20] <micahg> charlie-tca: desktop team I think
[19:21] <charlie-tca> Are you handling this or me?
[19:21] <micahg> I can do it, just not this week
[19:21] <charlie-tca> jarnos: still does, but it is not as easy to customize
[19:22] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] micahg will get with desktop-team about putting pavucontrol in the sound preferences
[19:22] <meetingology> ACTION: micahg will get with desktop-team about putting pavucontrol in the sound preferences
[19:23] <charlie-tca> Any questions on Old Business?
[19:24] <micahg> o/
[19:24] <charlie-tca> go ahead, micahg
[19:24] <micahg> charlie-tca: we're talkin about the sound menu, right?
[19:24] <charlie-tca> yup
[19:24] <charlie-tca> the thingy in indicators
[19:24] <charlie-tca> at least, I think so
[19:24] <charlie-tca> I don't have that anymore in Oneiric
[19:25] <micahg> right, so that's going to require changes in pavucontrol to actually work most probably, so it's actually not so simple to just add, I guess I glossed over that last itme
[19:25] <micahg> *time
[19:25] <charlie-tca> oh
[19:25] <charlie-tca> so, maybe we can't have it there
[19:25] <micahg> the indicators work over dbus
[19:25] <charlie-tca> But it is worth asking, isn't it?
[19:25] <micahg> the question is does lennart have any interest in inidicators...
[19:26] <charlie-tca> Maybe we should file a bug for it?
[19:26] <charlie-tca> That might be the easiest way to deal with it
[19:27] <micahg> yeah
[19:27] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team Updates
[19:27] <meetingology> TOPIC: Team Updates
[19:27] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
[19:27] <meetingology> TOPIC: Packaging & Development
[19:27] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit or micahg : your turn
[19:28] <micahg> so, mr_pouit got the indicators working in xubuntu oneiric again
[19:28] <charlie-tca> yes!
[19:29] <charlie-tca> live session is still broken
[19:29] <charlie-tca> anything else exciting happening?
[19:29] <micahg> yes, mr_pouit cleaned up that bug report so that the intent is clearer now
[19:30] <micahg> I'll upload libgtk2-notify-perl later tonight, that's one of the few things holding libnotify1 on the CD
[19:31] <micahg> I think that's it, we should probably try to confirm defaults for this cycle soon as feature freeze is 4 weeks away
[19:31] <micahg> *as possible
[19:32] <charlie-tca> (..)
[19:32] <micahg> .. (sorry, forgot)
[19:32] <charlie-tca> Np
[19:32] <charlie-tca> it will take us a while to learn to use it, I think
[19:33] <charlie-tca> um, Do we need to get pavucontrol and pastebinit in before feature freeze?
[19:33] <charlie-tca> Also, file-roller vs xarchiver?
[19:33] <micahg> file-roller is back and the problem with that was solved (dropped nautilus recommends)
[19:34] <micahg> I think ideally we should even if we don't have a release impetus as then we get 2 months to make sure it's the right decision
[19:35] <micahg> pavucontrol hasn't had a release in 2 yrs, there doesn't seem to be much upstream development, pastebinit is pretty active though
[19:35] <charlie-tca> but pavucontrol works
[19:36] <charlie-tca> Sometimes there is no need for further development, because things are working ;)
[19:37] <micahg> true, but that's a downside if we want stuff like indicator support :0
[19:37] <charlie-tca> oh, yeah, I guess it would be
[19:37] <charlie-tca> Okay, maybe we just get it in defaults then
[19:37] <charlie-tca> I can close the action item
[19:38] <charlie-tca> Any questions for our esteemed developers?
[19:38] <micahg> well, if we don't need indicator support and it works by itself, then we can include it
[19:39] <charlie-tca> yup, it is working, and we don't *have* to have indicator support
[19:39] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage and Testing
[19:39] <meetingology> TOPIC: Bug Triage and Testing
[19:40] <charlie-tca> Many thanks to the testers for all their hard work. Alpha2 made it out the door
[19:42] <charlie-tca> A big part of that is the daily testing we are doing. Alpha2 was a very difficult milestone to release, as can be seen by the flavours not releasing it.
[19:43] <charlie-tca> We knew in advance where the worst issues were, and had workarounds for most of the issues.
[19:43] <charlie-tca> Keep the bugs coming in, please
[19:44] <charlie-tca> We are tracking the Oneiric bugs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs/OneiricOcelot
[19:44] <charlie-tca> Any questions for Bugs and Testing?
[19:45] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
[19:45] <meetingology> TOPIC: Website & Marketing
[19:45] <charlie-tca> Any updates for the website?
[19:45] <knome> nope, not right now,
[19:45] <knome> but we're testing the imgcapt plugin
[19:45] <knome> and hopefully soon the picslide plugin as well
[19:46] <charlie-tca> o/
[19:46] <knome> (hey)
[19:47] <charlie-tca> I tried to test the plugin, but maybe I don't know how?
[19:47] <charlie-tca> It doesn't seem to do anything for me
[19:47] <charlie-tca> ..
[19:48] <knome> do you have javascript disabled?
[19:49] <charlie-tca> no, preferences says "Enable javascript" and that is checked
[19:49]  * charlie-tca slaps himself...
[19:49] <charlie-tca> Do I have to install java, too?
[19:49] <knome> nope, you shouldn't need java
[19:50] <knome> we can go through this after the meeting if you want
[19:50] <charlie-tca> Iced-Tea plugin is installed
[19:50] <charlie-tca> Anyone else try to test the imgcapt plugin?
[19:50] <pleia2> yep, I sent knome some feedback earlier
[19:51] <knome> pleia2, yup, i just read it, and i'll get back to you in a sec :)
[19:51] <charlie-tca> okay, I will get with you, knome
[19:51] <knome> good
[19:51] <pleia2> worked well for me, just some usability nitpicks :)
[19:51] <charlie-tca> I am sure it is my settings, somehow. I seem to be able to make anything fail completely, these days.
[19:52] <charlie-tca> Any other questions or comments for website?
[19:52] <pleia2> I added a link to our artwork page to our marketing page last week, so now it should be easier to find the logos
[19:52] <charlie-tca> Thank you so much for that!
[19:53] <knome> still need to get through the website as well as the wiki page to make sure it's current
[19:53] <charlie-tca> It is the little things that will help us.
[19:53] <charlie-tca> +1 knome
[19:53] <charlie-tca> We need people to look over what is at http://xubuntu.org, please
[19:54] <charlie-tca> If everybody here goes and looks it over, it will be pretty easy to get everything up to date.
[19:54] <charlie-tca> ..
[19:55] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork and Documentation
[19:55] <meetingology> TOPIC: Artwork and Documentation
[19:56] <charlie-tca> plantoschka did a great job on the news release. Now we just need some blog articles we can add!
[19:56] <charlie-tca> ochosi: are you around?
[19:58] <plantoschka> thanks :)
[20:00] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
[20:00] <meetingology> TOPIC: Announcements
[20:00] <charlie-tca>  * Ubuntu Developer Week happening all week, 16:00 to 20:00 UTC
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Channel is #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[20:01] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Sessions
[20:01] <knome> does xubuntu have a session?
[20:01] <charlie-tca> nope
[20:02] <charlie-tca> I did not get around to it, and no one else volunteered
[20:02] <knome> okay
[20:02] <knome> i must have missed that :)
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Important dates coming up:
[20:03] <charlie-tca> 10.04.3 Release: July 21, 2011
[20:03] <charlie-tca> 11.10 Alpha 3: August 4, 2011
[20:03] <charlie-tca> 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011
[20:03] <charlie-tca> 11.10 Release Date: October 13, 2011
[20:03] <charlie-tca> We will not be releasing 10.04.3, but will be involved with testing Ubuntu.
[20:04] <charlie-tca>  * The next meeting will be on Sunday, 2011-07-17 at 22:00 UTC
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Thunderbird is now the default email client in Ubuntu, it has replaced Evolution
[20:05] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[20:05] <meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
[20:05] <charlie-tca> Anything anyone wants to discuss?
[20:05] <charlie-tca> Let's welcome beardygnome back; it has been a while since he was here!
[20:05] <charlie-tca> ..
[20:05] <beardygnome> cheers charlie - been busy working on the new house
[20:06] <beardygnome> building sheds, bookcases etc
[20:06] <beardygnome> hoping to get back into some geek stuff now ;-)
[20:06] <beardygnome> ..
[20:07] <knome> building applications, code etc?
[20:07] <charlie-tca> huh?
[20:07] <knome> nvm :)
[20:07] <charlie-tca> sure :)
[20:07] <knome> (from building sheds to building apps...)
[20:07] <charlie-tca> ah!
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Anything ?
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Let's go ahead and finish up then. I will all you good people on Sunday.
[20:09] <charlie-tca> Thanks for attending the meeting. Your participation is absolutely necessary to the welfare of Xubuntu!
[20:09] <charlie-tca> #endmeeting
[20:09] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jul 11 20:09:08 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
[20:09] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-11-19.02.moin.txt
[20:13] <astraljava> Your meetings are much more coherent than ours. :)
[20:14] <charlie-tca> We been at it longer
[20:15] <charlie-tca> Besides, I pretend I know what I am doing, too ;)
[20:16] <astraljava> Heheh. :)
[20:17] <knome> pleia2, huh, that became a long email :)
[20:17] <pleia2> :)
[20:18] <knome> anyway, it should have answered anything you asked, and anything you might have asked after that, if i only asked for the questions you asked
[20:22] <charlie-tca> so, knome. You do know I am the only person to find two websites now that I can't see?
[20:22] <charlie-tca> I get completely blank pages for them...
[20:24] <knome> :o
[20:24] <knome> what are those websites?
[20:27] <charlie-tca> http://ubuntuhowto.org/
[20:27] <charlie-tca> any link on the page will give me a blank page
[20:28] <charlie-tca> the other was the the status pages for Ubuntu, they fixed that now
[20:28] <knome> i'm getting a blank-looking page too
[20:29] <knome> it looks like the content is under some kind of white block
[20:29] <charlie-tca> Oh, good. It is not just me then
[20:29] <knome> so did you manage to login to the demosite?
[20:30] <charlie-tca> yup
[20:30] <charlie-tca> but then nothing happened
[20:31] <knome> charlie-tca, adding " .entry-content { width: 100%; } " to the CSS on ubuntuhowto.org fixes the bug for me
[20:31] <knome> charlie-tca, okay, so after you've logged in, you need to go to "imgcapt", find it in the left side navigation
[20:32] <charlie-tca> okay'
[20:32] <knome> now you can either try to edit any of the existing images, or add new
[20:33] <knome> to add new, there's a button in the top. to edit, hover the table row and an "edit" -link appears
[20:33] <knome> (the by default hidden edit-fields is WP default)
[20:33] <knome> err, edit-links :)
[20:35] <charlie-tca> well, slap me with a wet trout
[20:35] <knome> is there something that is not working? :)
[20:36] <charlie-tca> no
[20:36] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[20:36] <knome> no problem
[22:47] <GridCube> when is the next community meeting?
[22:48] <micahg> GridCube: sunday 22:00 UTC
[22:51] <GridCube> O_o not today?
[22:51] <charlie-tca> Was today at 19:00 UTC, about 5 hours ago
[22:51] <GridCube> D: wow
[22:51] <charlie-tca> or maybe 4 hours ago, it is 22:51 UTC now
[22:52] <GridCube> yes i see, my internal clock was wrong i though it was 19:00 in my time
[22:52] <GridCube> XD
[22:53] <GridCube> well to check the logs then :)
[22:57] <charlie-tca> We got a new meeting bot, and the logs are pretty nice now.
[22:57] <charlie-tca> http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-11-19.02.moin.txt
[22:59] <GridCube> i still like the irclogs htmls :P whit pretty colors are easier to read
[23:01]  * charlie-tca nods
[23:02] <charlie-tca> but this is still better the pure irc channel log
[23:03] <GridCube> :D
[23:51] <Unit193> I missed the entire meeting and there is nothing in scroll back :(
[23:59] <pleia2> Unit193: http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-11-19.02.moin.txt :)


[11:38] <kwwii> hrm, where is conn when you need him
[13:02] <kwwii> psyke83: so, there is a small problem with the human gtkrc for hardy
[13:03] <psyke83> kwwii, what's wrong?
[13:03] <kwwii> psyke83: basically, they say that for updates the changes should be as minor as possible
[13:04] <kwwii> doing a diff between the old and the new version the changes are pretty major
[13:04] <kwwii> I tried to explain it to them, we'll see what happens
[13:05] <kwwii> but it might be necessary to make the change as small as possible (there are a few non-critical changes like the animation stuff) I guess
[13:07] <psyke83> kwwii, right, I understand. Remember when I made Human color-chooser compatible? I based it on Human but had to hack a lot of things to emulate the old Human theme, because it was actually using three different orange colours (the metacity, selected bg color and the orange highlight for buttons and progressbars etc.). Unfortunately this broke Banshee as they use custom widgets
[13:08] <psyke83> I decided to rebase a lot of code on Human-Murrine and it worked better... that's why there's so much different code
[13:08] <kwwii> psyke83: right, I actually spent an hour or so figuring out exactly what you did :p
[13:08] <psyke83> kwwii, did you find problems when using the theme yourself?
[13:08] <kwwii> they started firing off questions as to whether this and that was really needed ;-)
[13:08] <kwwii> psyke83: nope, it seems to work fine for me
[13:09] <psyke83> jeez man, I feel bad for putting you through that now ;)
[13:09] <kwwii> hehe, I should be responsible for the work I do, probably just better that way :D
[13:10] <psyke83> the point was to fix bug 237261, did you mention it?
[13:10] <kwwii> yes, that was how I tried to fend them off the first time
[13:10] <kwwii> the bug is complicated to read in itself
[13:11] <kwwii> and then to explain what parts for which release, confusing
[13:11] <psyke83> basically, banshee uses some weird custom widgets that get misidentified by the Human theme
[13:12] <kwwii> right
[13:12] <psyke83> well, I can try looking over the code again and try to fix this problem with minimal changes (though the new version is actually less hacky and better, since it's based on Human-Murrine which I've been giving a lot more attention to)
[13:12] <kwwii> wait for now, I think my explanation might just get it through
[13:13] <kwwii> but don't hate me if I come back asking :-)
[13:13] <psyke83> ok, hehe
[13:13] <psyke83> I'm the one that volunteered to fix this bug, it should be me getting some flak too ;)
[13:13] <kwwii> btw, do you think that the retro murrine for intrepid would be the best place to start for the dark theme?
[13:14] <psyke83> kwwii, absolutely, but it needs a tiny change
[13:14] <kwwii> what's that?
[13:14] <psyke83> you remember when we had the metacity color problem in gnome-appearance-preferences?
[13:15] <kwwii> yepp
[13:16] <psyke83> look at line 54 of the gtkrc, the bg[SELECTED] line. That sets the colour to the "caramel" used for metacity
[13:16] <kwwii> kinda funky that the app which does the appearence settings doesn't appear right
[13:16] <psyke83> it mixes the fg colour and selected bg colour by 25% to get the effect - that will mess up your theme's metacity
[13:17] <psyke83> so, just set it to: bg[SELECTED] = @selected_bg_color
[13:17] <kwwii> ahhh, right, I see it
[13:17] <kwwii> thanks for the tip
[13:18] <psyke83> if you "pkill metacity" with the retro theme you'll see the change - the metacity border will look bright orange or something
[13:18] <psyke83> I think that's the only change you need to make
[13:19] <kwwii> hrm, that makes the window deco in the preview darker, but the window deco itself stays lighter
[13:20] <psyke83> ah, one sec
[13:20] <kwwii> well, we need a new metacity theme too anyway
[13:20] <psyke83> also comment the line 259 (the only entry in "metacity-frame")
[13:21] <psyke83> hmm, I also lightened the checkmarks, that's unnecessary for a dark theme... will I just send the gtkrc with the unnecessary stuff removed?
[13:24] <kwwii> sure, if you have the time it would be greta
[13:24] <kwwii> erm, great
[13:27] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/current.png shows the colors I was thinking of with the retro theme as is
[13:28] <kwwii> probably make the page bg as little off-white though
[13:28] <psyke83> and what about the selected bg orange?
[13:29] <kwwii> it will probably need to be turned down a bit to a more brown tone, it's been really hard to find exactly the right color
[13:31] <psyke83> what about something like this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/attachments/20080531/c29553ff/attachment-0001.png
[13:31] <kwwii> I am not happy with how the selected bg color appears in the menu selection...another thing I was playing with changing
[13:31] <psyke83> kwwii, I also lightened the selected bg for menus as it was far too strong with the retro colours, I'll remove that too
[13:32] <kwwii> the thing is that we still have orange icons, so we do need to accomodate for that
[13:32] <kwwii> that screenshot seems to need a bit more contrast, I think
[13:32] <kwwii> at least on my laptop lcd is looks a little muddy
[13:33] <elkbuntu> that's really hard to read...
[13:35] <psyke83> kwwii, sorry, I meant just the selected bg colour in that screenshot
[13:35] <psyke83> the "coffee"... the bg is too light
[13:36] <psyke83> kwwii, did you look at the new UbuntuStudio theme?
[13:36] <psyke83> let me show you the new menus, you might like... one sec
[13:37] <kwwii> psyke83: nope, haven't seen it yet
[13:37] <psyke83> http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-TheWidgetFactory-2.png
[13:38] <psyke83> notice the selected menubar button matches the menu background
[13:38] <kwwii> yeah, that does look pretty nifty
[13:39] <kwwii> I wish that the widgets had the same amount of rounding though
[13:39] <kwwii> the progress bar and the menu highlight need a bit more rounding, if you ask me (which you didn't!)
[13:44] <psyke83> you mean menu item highlight?
[13:44] <kwwii> yepp
[13:44] <psyke83> the progress bar can't be rounded with the murrine engine, unfortunately
[13:45] <kwwii> I think I should learn how to write theme engines
[13:53] <psyke83> heh
[13:54] <psyke83> nearly finished
[13:54] <psyke83> do you want to try darkening the menubar (like UbuntuStudio)?
[14:07] <kwwii> yes, I think it should be dark as well
[14:08] <elkbuntu> please tell me you guys are not seriously considering this for default :-/
[14:10] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: That is up to he powers that be.
[14:11] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, i hope they find it equally impossible to read as i do then
[14:11] <_MMA_> Ahh... opinions. :)
[14:11] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, ahh, deteriorating eyesight
[14:12]  * _MMA_ hands Melissa a screen-reader and on of many high-contrast themes.
[14:12] <_MMA_> s/on/one
[14:13] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, not that bad yet, but if a 26yrold with minor eyesight issues has problems, i fear for anyone older or worse off
[14:14] <psyke83> elkbuntu, what part is difficult to read?
[14:14] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: Sure, but constantly catering to the minority or people who *might* not like a style stifles progress and creativity.
[14:15] <elkbuntu> psyke83, swaping between the white text and almost_the_same_the_background colours and lines and so forth
[14:16] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, using something that requires the average 50yrold to need help to change a theme isnt a good impression to create
[14:16] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, just as candy should never be a staple, gloss should never be more favoured than usability
[14:16] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: Then that can switch to one of the high-contrast themes Ubuntu ships.
[14:17] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, with that theme, if i didnt know ubuntu, i wouldnt be able to *find* how to change it
[14:17] <elkbuntu> it's *that* hard for me to read
[14:17] <_MMA_> That's the breaks then.
[14:18] <_MMA_> Catering to everyone will *never* work.
[14:18] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, that's a really really really dangerous attitude to have
[14:18] <psyke83> even though I'm working on this dark theme, I also agree with elkbuntu  ;)
[14:18] <_MMA_> Ok. :)
[14:19] <_MMA_> Danger in my middle name. ;)
[14:19] <psyke83> I thought it was "music" :P
[14:19] <_MMA_> ;)
[14:23] <psyke83> kwwii: I sent the gtkrc via email, here's a screenshot: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-TheWidgetFactory-3.png
[14:23] <_MMA_> Trying to cater to *everyone* will only yield the most generic crap you can think of. What appeals to 20-somethings will not necessarily go over well with grandmothers. Going for a constant middle-ground is one thing that will also hinder linux on the desktop adoption. Define a audience. Go for them. If people outside of that dig what you do, great.
[14:23] <psyke83> all the tweaks needed for the light theme were removed (like menu item shading etc)
[14:24] <kwwii> sorry, had to make my son lunch...back now
[14:24] <psyke83> the menu item roundness matches the rest of the theme, and I plagiarized most of Cory's theme style ;)
[14:25] <_MMA_> psyke83: Which reminds me, once out darker on is more settled (Im on the fence about the combined GTK/Metacity) we should do up the light version.
[14:26] <psyke83> elkbuntu, the Human-Murrine and Human-Clearlooks themes will still be available... if there is a major accessibility issue for the dark theme (when it's final), then perhaps some concessions will be made, who knows
[14:26] <psyke83> _MMA_, ok
[14:26] <kwwii> _MMA_: I plan on putting in a legacy-human theme as well
[14:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: \m/
[14:27] <kwwii> but you'll have to install that extra
[14:27] <kwwii> we will also have a legacy-murrine theme by default
[14:27] <psyke83> kwwii, how will you have a legacy-human theme if the ubuntulooks engine is getting axed?
[14:28] <psyke83> oops I need to fix something very small in the gtkrc, will send an update
[14:28] <kwwii> psyke83: it will be installable in main, but not on the CDs or in the default selection
[14:29] <_MMA_> kwwii: There's not a couple of k on the disk for it?
[14:30] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, im not talking about preference, im talking about usability. that theme would probably require assistive technology that i otherwise have not needed for any other system ever. I'll be quite disappointed if ubuntu tries to be so cutting edge that I become visually impaired from using a default system.
[14:31] <kwwii> _MMA_: dude, getting rid of ubuntulooks is a good thing
[14:32] <kwwii> and in the end we might just have to go back to it anyway :p
[14:32] <psyke83> kwwii, sent the update (to fix mismatched gnome-panel shading)
[14:32] <kwwii> elkbuntu: the screen you saw is not the one we are talking about
[14:32] <kwwii> psyke83: cool, I'll check it out
[14:33] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: Who's "usability"? Usability depends on the audience to a massive degree. You are a corner case for 20-somethings. And I'm sure you know, corner-cases dont always matter around what we do in Ubuntu.
[14:33] <psyke83> kwwii, don't be surprised when the metacity looks awful, that's the real colours it should be using. The hacks are removed that made it "caramel" since they would interfere with a new metacity theme
[14:34] <elkbuntu> kwwii, im not sure we're arguing about any particular screen, rather the philosophy of 'screw you and all who dont have 20:20 eyesight' attitude.
[14:36] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: It's actually a much larger "We need to cater to *everyone*" thing. ;)
[14:37] <psyke83> I think this is an issue that needs serious consideration. I would term it more like: "we need to alienate the least amount of people in our key demographic" ;)
[14:38] <_MMA_> psyke83: "our key demographic" Which is? :)
[14:38] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, Human Beings
[14:38] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, if the strapline means *anything*
[14:38] <_MMA_> No. That doesnt work.
[14:39] <elkbuntu> false advertising ftw then
[14:39] <kwwii> psyke83: excellent, thanks
[14:39] <psyke83> np
[14:40] <kwwii> elkbuntu: there is no way to make artwork which everyone likes
[14:40] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: Like I said.  It's a pretty big problem around our entire community.
[14:40] <psyke83> kwwii, you may want to mention to the higher-ups that firefox is terribly non-compliant with dark themes, though. There are several issues that need to be looked at
[14:41] <kwwii> psyke83: I have already started a discussion with the firefox maintainer
[14:41] <psyke83> cool
[14:41] <elkbuntu> kwwii, aesthetic preference != usability preference. I'm talking the latter.
[14:42] <elkbuntu> kwwii, you've met me. you know i dont wear glasses. is it right that someone as common as i should be alienated by a theme?
[14:43] <kwwii> elkbuntu: no, and the theme will not be one which is really hard to read :-)
[14:44] <elkbuntu> kwwii, i know you well enough to know *you* wouldnt do something like that.
[14:45] <kwwii> well, the whole dark theme idea pretty much came from me, so you might hate me in the end anyway :p
[14:45] <_MMA_> kwwii: pfftt... You stole it from me.
[14:45] <_MMA_> :P
[14:45] <elkbuntu> kwwii, dark themes are not the problem. i've used dark themes before. the contrast is what's messing me up
[14:46] <elkbuntu> the bright white glares out all the nearly-the-same-as-the-background stuff
[14:46] <psyke83> _MMA_, totally agreed, there's a lot of plagiarism going on here and it's totally not cool... :P
[14:47] <_MMA_> hehe
[14:52] <_MMA_> My desktop: http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1289/humandarkfw8.png It's so l33t.
[15:08] <kwwii> _MMA_: I like the consistent use of black, very artsy
[15:09] <_MMA_> kwwii: Yes. I was going for a "creature of the night" sorta thing.
[15:10] <_MMA_> A desktop for vampires thing.
[15:12] <kwwii> :p
[15:33] <kwwii> psyke83: the dark menubar, although nice, would need to be accounted for in the metacity inactive window decoration
[15:35] <kwwii> I guess I should stop working on gtkrc and start working on the metacity theme
[15:35] <psyke83> kwwii, actually you can put a tweak in the gtkrc to keep it consistent with the menubar
[15:36] <psyke83> *it = metacity's inactive window
[15:38] <kwwii> psyke83: erm, what is the tweak? might try it out (although we need a new metacity theme anyway)
[15:38] <psyke83> just a sec
[15:40] <psyke83> kwwii, in section "metacity-frame", insert: bg[NORMAL]= shade (0.85, @bg_color)
[15:41] <psyke83> line 255 or so
[15:43] <psyke83> put a comment there to remind you that it has to be the same as the entries in the sections "murrine-menubar" and "panel" (I've commented those already)
[15:47] <kwwii> psyke83: hrm, that didn't seem to change anything...not sure whether metacity has to be restarted or such
[15:49] <kwwii> nope, that didn't seem to do the anything noticable
[15:49] <kwwii> anyway, looking into metacity now, probably be the best solution in the long run
[15:53] <psyke83> kwwii, no that should fix it
[15:53] <psyke83> you need to restart metacity
[15:54] <psyke83> pkill metacity (it's a bug in gnome-appearances-preferences, doesn't refresh metacity properly)
[15:55] <psyke83> it's better to put that line in, because the menubar, panel and metacity active bg always need to be in sync
[15:55] <psyke83> the gtkrc is the best place to keep them in sync
[15:55] <psyke83> sorry normal bg
[15:58] <psyke83> kwwii: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-2.png
[16:10] <kwwii> lol, I was using compiz :p
[16:10] <_MMA_> Tard
[16:10] <kwwii> much nicer now
[16:11] <kwwii> gotta take my kid to basketball practice, bbl
[19:23] <dashua_> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot_13.1213726786.png
[19:24] <dashua_> Here's my dark Hardy theme.  Fairly usable and I'm not a big fan of dark themes either.
[19:27] <psyke83> dashua_, the glass effect is way too over the top ;)
[19:27] <psyke83> you can't even discern the radiobutton or checkmarks properly
[19:28] <dashua_> Yeah, it's a bit aggressive.
[19:28] <dashua_> Human Murrine is still my favorite
[19:29] <pwnguin> i have to ask
[19:29] <pwnguin> why would you want to imitate vista?
[19:29] <_MMA_> dashua_: I like the colors. Hits me like cell-shaded animation.
[19:30] <dashua_> If Vista looked this good, I wouldn't be using Ubuntu =/
[19:30] <pwnguin> _MMA_: i'd been thinking about a compiz theme do do that kinda stuff
[19:30] <pwnguin> thick outlines on windows
[19:32] <dashua_> psyke83: This is the Compiz Murrina theme with some color changes.
[19:32] <psyke83> I actually dislike 90% of Murrine themes because of the glass effect, which is why I lowered the hilight_ratio for Human Murrine. The new SVN version of Murrine is even better, it allows you to change the gradient shades for widgets
[19:32] <pwnguin> I've been trying out the murrine based netbook theme
[19:33] <dashua_> psyke83: I'm using Revision 37
[19:33] <dashua_> Think that is the latest.  Haven't updated in a while.
[19:34] <dashua_> Human-Murrine is very subtle and professional.
[19:36] <dashua_> Are you going to be using RGBA transparency effects with the latest murrine engine?
[19:36] <_MMA_> Not by default.
[19:37] <dashua_> I think it does gnome-system monitor by default.
[19:37] <psyke83> got a link for Compiz Murrina (and what does Compiz have to do with a gtk theme?) ?
[19:37] <dashua_> They're making a live Compiz .iso
[19:38] <dashua_> This is one of the developers themes,
[19:39] <psyke83> dashua_, well, it's enabled in the gtkrc files at the moment, but it's probably going to need testing
[19:40] <dashua_> psyke83: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Compiz-Fusion+Dark+Live+CD+Murrina?content=78513
[19:41] <dashua_> This new color scheme plays nice with Oo.  Most dark themes do not display the icons.
[19:42] <psyke83> _MMA_, you better disable it in your gtkrc before uploading it, then
[19:42] <psyke83> ah
[19:43] <_MMA_> psyke83: Its been uploaded already. Its fine now for testing but should be turned off for release.
[19:45] <psyke83> Ken's theme displays icons in OO.o fine...
[19:45] <psyke83> _MMA_, are you sure? I thought it would be enabled as per the spit-and-polish spec
[19:45] <psyke83> gnome-session got an update to enable RGBA effects today, for example
[19:47] <_MMA_> psyke83: Last I heard it wouldn't be on by default at release. I guess it depends on how testing goes.


[00:13] <bryceh> what's the best way to tell if I'm running r600 vs. r600g?
[00:13] <bryceh> ah, glxinfo:  OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.4 on AMD RV770
[00:20] <soreau> bryceh: The g in r600g stands for Gallium
[00:23] <bryceh> soreau, yes I'm aware ;-)
[00:24] <soreau> bryceh: I misread your statement there
[00:24] <bryceh> humber:~$ grep r600 /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[00:24] <bryceh> [   236.995] (II) RADEON(0): [DRI2]   DRI driver: r600
[00:24] <bryceh> [   237.000] (II) AIGLX: Trying DRI driver /usr/lib/dri/r600_dri.so
[00:24] <bryceh> [   237.002] (II) AIGLX: Loaded and initialized r600
[00:25] <bryceh> was surprised I don't have the 'g' on those.  But "r600" == "r600g" here
[18:17] <soreau> Hey guys, Im looking in driconf and there are a lot of options missing
[18:18] <soreau> even in expert mode
[18:18] <soreau> Is there some package missing?
[18:33] <LLStarks> bryceh, i'm about to buy a laptop with a 6770m. will i be able to patch fglrx whenever the xserver abi changes or will be stuck with radeon except for april and october?
[18:37] <Sarvatt> no you cant patch fglrx for abi changes, we might not do 1.11 for 11.10, and it'll work fine with radeon since its a rebranded 5xxx series
[18:39] <soreau> Sarvatt: Any idea about driconf?
[18:39] <soreau> Im pretty stumped on this one
[18:39] <Sarvatt> soreau: what about it?
[18:39] <Sarvatt> sorry, missed those messages umm
[18:39] <Sarvatt> what GPU is it?
[18:40] <soreau> Sarvatt: It used to have a near plethora of options, now its next to nothing. rv350/r300g
[18:40] <LLStarks> sarvatt, oneiric will be 1.10.x?
[18:40] <Sarvatt> i'm guessing you're talking about the options that were exposed with r300c instead of r300g
[18:41] <soreau> Sarvatt: hmm.. maybe so but it doesnt make sense for gallium to expose less I would think
[18:41] <Sarvatt> the options were only there for the classic driver, its not based on the gpu it's based on what the dri driver exposes
[18:41] <soreau> ok
[18:42] <Sarvatt> LLStarks: its possible, we're going to talk about it at UDS
[18:43]  * soreau ppa-purges xorg-edgers to see
[18:44] <Sarvatt> soreau: LIBGL_DRIVER_PATH=/usr/lib/dri-alternates/ driconf should show the r300c ones to be sure
[18:44] <soreau> Oh interesting
[18:45] <Sarvatt> r300c is in there so it gets loaded when KMS isn't used automatically
[18:45] <soreau> Sarvatt: Is that to say, you can run any app with the classic drivers by setting this path?
[18:45] <Sarvatt> yep
[18:45] <soreau> and these are updated classic drivers from xorg-edgers, not stock ubuntu
[18:45] <Sarvatt> its the same in the archive
[18:46] <soreau> Sarvatt: ok thanks for that information
[18:46] <Sarvatt> libgl1-mesa-dri installs both in both the ppa and natty
[18:47] <Sarvatt> the only major changes between the ppa and natty are that i have libtxc_dxtn in there, texture-float is enabled and the tls patches in edgers
[18:48] <Sarvatt> oh and the whole libglapi-mesa package split
[18:49] <Sarvatt> err tls patches are disabled in edgers which breaks some obscure apps
[18:50] <soreau> Sarvatt: s3tc??
[18:50] <Sarvatt> yeah
[18:50] <soreau> How does that work to enable/disable it?
[18:50] <Sarvatt> the lib should be pulled in automatically so its enabled
[18:50] <soreau> But it causes problems for many apps that do not use this compression format..
[18:51] <Sarvatt> many being a few proprietary apps yeah
[18:51] <soreau> huh
[18:51] <Sarvatt> oh ya mean having it installed causes problems in some apps?
[18:52] <soreau> Yes
[18:52] <Sarvatt> is that a radeon specific thing? what does the driconf option to enable it default to?
[18:52] <soreau> There is no driconf option in gallium exposed apparently
[18:53] <soreau> This was actually the problem I was referring to in the first place
[18:53] <LLStarks> sarvatt, what makes 1.11+ so prohibitive? i though randr and the rest of xinput2 were safe for later this year.
[18:53] <Sarvatt> are you sure the problems were just with the screwed up release? I put the latest 1.0.0 in there
[18:55] <Sarvatt> libtxc_dxtn070518 had some nasty bugs in it
[18:56]  * Sarvatt has to run, sorry
[19:00] <Sarvatt> soreau: oh you're on maverick? I haven't updated that in months in xorg-edgers, I've been talking about natty all this time sorry
[19:00] <soreau> Sarvatt: Well the fact remains.. classic exposes many more options than gallium
[23:41] <ScottK> Sarvatt or RAOF: Are you aware of this: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=270942
[23:41] <ubot4> KDE bug 270942 in compositing "Direct Rendering is wrongfully disabled on Intel graphics since mesa 7 10 1" [Normal,Unconfirmed]


[13:44] <Guest15> Hi, I would like to ask if anyone knows with why the patch for https://ubuntu.com/security/CVE-2023-32233 has not been released yet?
[13:44] -ubottu:#ubuntu-kernel- In the Linux kernel through 6.3.1, a use-after-free in Netfilter nf_tables when processing batch requests can be abused to perform arbitrary read and write operations on kernel memory. Unprivileged local users can obtain root privileges. This occurs because anonymous sets are mishandled. <https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2023-32233>
[18:40] <sarnold> Guest15: I understand that the fixes for that issue are in https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-team/+archive/ubuntu/proposed2 -- at least for some of the kernels. you could try running it if you're not able to disable usernamespaces https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-team/+archive/ubuntu/proposed2 -- but know that these haven't finished QA yet
[19:57] <Guest15> sarnold: Thanks, i cannot disable this because i have K8S on Ubuntu 20.04. I only dont understand why patch for critical CVE took too long


[02:23] <vish> troy_s: heya...
[02:23] <vish> doesnt seem to be progressing well with the manual design . This is something that's now floating around :( > http://imagebin.ca/view/j4_DZU9B.html
[02:23] <vish> thorwil is nearly at the point of quiting
[02:24] <troy_s> vish: Well that's too bad. Hopefully something good comes out of it.
[02:27]  * vish bbiab
[02:42] <ryanprior> vish: I like that mockup. Sorry to hear thorwil's stressed.
[02:54] <troy_s> vish: How do you feel about the mock?
[02:55] <vish> troy_s: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00615.html
[02:58] <vish> hehe , thorwil thought it looked like "the twilight zone" ;p
[03:13] <troy_s> vish: That wasn't my question :)
[03:13] <vish> troy_s: hmm , i would prefer not using that ;)
[03:14] <troy_s> vish: I'd hope that if everyone agrees that they are on a team that all of the relevant bits they can bring to the table are brought.
[03:14] <troy_s> vish: Not good enough.
[03:14] <troy_s> vish: Specifically, what do you like (if anything - no shame in saying "I believe it is underwhelming") or what do you not like?
[03:16] <vish> troy_s: well the current design, is just a compromise... and the door with the lynx is wrong :/ since the light is brighter on the other side and the lynx seems to be on the darker side , it seems to give more of the wrong sense
[03:16] <vish> which is _not_ what we want to convey
[03:17] <vish> troy_s: is the need for a lynx is really desperate , we could use it with "the click" design i had pointed out
[03:17] <vish> s/is/if
[03:18] <troy_s> vish: Ok... so let's see... thus far I see you saying "Door is wrong" which, subject to artistic merit, is sort of a moot issue, agree?
[03:18] <troy_s> vish: One could probably dicker with the semantics, but by and large, there are _far_ worse issues at play. ;)
[03:19] <vish> troy_s: its more that the two elements dont fit well with each other and rather have no interaction with each other... but sure enlighten me :)
[03:19] <troy_s> vish: Agree on the point of the is the lynx necessary. Let's cut to the chase on that point though - is _that_ Lynx necessary or, at the very core of the matter, desirable?
[03:20] <troy_s> vish: In no particular order...
[03:20] <troy_s> vish: 1) Lynx is suboptimal in execution. It errs on the side of grade school simplicity / technique.
[03:21] <troy_s> vish: 2) Composition is rigid. Draw a line through the centre of gravity of the display type title. That line is the centre of gravity (roughly) of the title. It is compounded with a CoG of the door. Net sum is some sort of strange 1/3rds symmetry.
[03:23] <troy_s> vish: 3) Type pairings. The logo type for "ubuntu" is godawful at the best of times. If you are going to handcuff yourselves into using it, don't let it take centre stage as the aesthetic anchor. The type pairings of the type above and below the title are so different that you have roughly mixed red wine with fish.
[03:24]  * vish totally missed the type parings :/
[03:24] <troy_s> vish: 4) Colour. There is one point of colour. Technically you could argue the application thereof, but at the very least, one should consider that given the context of the colour and location, that there is _no_ visual flow. The visual flow for a LtR audience probably starts with the glaring 10.04, hiccups with the value shift (yellow on white probably violates a value on value guideline), then staggers into the CoF.
[03:24] <troy_s> 5) Style. There isn't any.
[03:25] <troy_s> 6) Contextual style. What does a Lynx have to do with a door in relationship to your audience. If the audience is some sort of person unfamiliar with Ubuntu, then he or she likely doesn't appreciate the Lynx for Lynx's sake. See (1) above.
[03:26]  * vish has been ranting about [6] since the beginning  :(
[03:26] <vish> no new audience will ever get it
[03:27] <troy_s> 6.1) Door motif _may_ work for the audience guessed at, but it most certainly could be more adeptly crafted.
[03:27] <troy_s> vish: 7) Palette? What is the palette doing for the audience implied? Red Orange and Yellow are certainly the trademarks of Ubuntu, but do they lead the cover in the proper direction of communication _given_ the implied audience?
[03:28] <troy_s> vish: 8) Grid. There isn't one.
[03:28] <troy_s> vish: 8.1) Grids certainly aren't mandatory, bug given this as an example, it would be hard to argue that the team couldn't make better strides starting off with one.
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: 8.2) If 'grid' is alien, Google 'publishing grid' or 'typographic grid'.
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: And now, dinner... chat in a few perhaps.
[03:29] <vish> ;)
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: If anyone says 'new user' or 'average user' slap them.
[03:29] <troy_s> vish: They don't exist. They are people with specific backgrounds and needs.
[03:30] <troy_s> vish: Those terms oversimplify them and force horrible cliches.
[03:37] <vish> hmm , i dont think using the Ubuntu colors is wrong but in the way use here , yellow to white is a bit of a mess
[03:38] <vish> used*
[03:56] <troy_s> vish: Colour should be used to drive that communication / emotion.
[03:56] <troy_s> vish: The question is - relative to the audience - is it?
[03:57] <troy_s> vish: Not an easy question to answer, and in the end, it is all guesswork. That's the core of the entire discussion. When you illustrate or paint, you make a constant series of evaluations on where to put a stroke. That's the role of the artist or designer, to deliver guesses and judgement calls.
[04:18] <vish> for the relative audience - no .. but probably we could retain a bit of the official colors for purposes of retaining branding .. that way it would be like introducing the colors to the audience  , and once they use the OS , they'd get it..
[04:18]  * vish gtg
[04:18]  * vish will catch up later
[04:21] <troy_s> vish: Agree on that point.
[06:15] <kwwii> hey kids
[10:38] <thorwil> kwwii: nena's producers listened too much to 2raumwohnung and maybe a bit goldfrapp. without getting it
[10:39] <kwwii> thorwil: no doubt
[10:40] <kwwii> Jono is really lucky I didn't post the other pics of him in that costume ;)
[10:40] <thorwil> heh
[10:40] <kwwii> he sent me an email this morning with the subject to "You bastard" and text of "you know why"
[10:41] <kwwii> :P
[10:41] <thorwil> but ... who would be his robin?
[10:41] <kwwii> his wife ;)
[10:45] <thorwil> pah, she could be batwoman or catwoman
[10:46] <thorwil> although ... http://www.completelybonkers.co.uk/images/888897%20XL.jpg
[10:46] <darkmatter> but that would undermine the importance of gay love
[10:48] <thorwil> http://meandtheblueskies.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/batman.jpg
[10:49] <darkmatter> my point exactly
[10:56] <kwwii> lol
[12:56] <darkmatter> vish: I almost feinted. after 10 years of bitching/moaning/ranting/raving until I turned blue in the face, someone actually started making a user account/login prefs manager 'somewhat' similar to what I've suggested :o
[12:58] <vish> darkmatter: there ,there , dont worry , you can still keep bitching/moaning/ranting/raving ;)
[12:58] <darkmatter> vish: lol and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UserAccountDialog
[12:59] <darkmatter> pics are at the bottom
[12:59] <vish> oh , yeah , mcleasn had been blogged about that
[13:01] <vish> s/been/ /
[13:30] <zniavre> hello / bonjour
[13:30] <zniavre> what do you think about the Lucidity gtk mockup ?
[17:19] <troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
[17:20] <thorwil> troy_s: funny, i was just about to paste you something :)
[17:20] <troy_s> thorwil: Synergy. How are things?
[17:20] <thorwil> troy_s: http://imagebin.ca/img/j4_DZU9B.png
[17:21] <troy_s> thorwil: Yeah vish showed me that yesterday.
[17:21] <thorwil> heh
[17:21] <thorwil> troy_s: the creator of that even claimed to have taken the stuff on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork into account
[17:21] <troy_s> thorwil: It just seems like more of the same circles. Problem with culture, not with abilities (although granted, that too is a problem)
[17:23] <troy_s> thorwil: As wild speculation, it seems every step wanders. Adding elements isn't a horribly good solution when _every single element_ needs better execution.
[17:25] <thorwil> troy_s: i'm more or less waiting for the project leader to take sides, but as luck has it, he currently has connectivity problems
[17:26] <troy_s> thorwil: That isn't terribly useful either. This shouldn't be about sides.
[17:26] <troy_s> thorwil: If you have a clear goal (something that fleshing out detail will actually _hinder_ for most participants), the solution should be accepted.
[17:27] <troy_s> thorwil: It's the classic fundamental flaw - evaluating work based on the consumption, not on the creation.
[17:30] <thorwil> troy_s: but it is about sides, because there's a clash between following a process, where you first define the what and how vs an approach of just doing something and not bothering about a consensus on abstract terms
[17:31] <troy_s> thorwil: But quite frankly, anyone that looks at that Lynx and approves is questionable: Is it well executed craftsmanship? Does it communicate something fitting for the goal given the audience?
[17:31] <troy_s> thorwil: My personal issue is that the Lynx, no matter how fitting, is just suffering from horrendous execution. It, as much as I hate to say it, is about grade three level artistry.
[17:32] <troy_s> thorwil: (Somewhere in the zone of an 8-10 year old output)
[17:32] <thorwil> troy_s: yeah exactly. almost everyone who did say something about the lynx is questionable
[17:33] <troy_s> thorwil: IF you look at that Lynx and say 'I was utterly blown away' you are 1) Either completely cheerleading at that point - a useful quality in some circumstances one could guess. 2) Delusional.
[17:33] <thorwil> troy_s: Benjamin managed to both call for "professional" quality and calling that lynx awesome
[17:33] <troy_s> thorwil: Enough with the soft gloves... we have too many soft gloves.
[17:34] <troy_s> thorwil: Well there you go. Wrong guy to be evaluating anything. Worst case.
[17:34] <troy_s> thorwil: It is _not_ awesome, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. The tougher questions are all cloudy from that point on.
[17:35] <troy_s> thorwil: Let's assume an extremely artistic Lynx, is that optimal? Might be... might be not. Those are the real questions. But if you can't get past a simple analysis of work, you are doomed to fail.
[17:35] <troy_s> thorwil: Problem is too, that all of the 'creators' are playing a role. You don't have an arbitrator. That's problematic.
[17:36] <thorwil> troy_s: can't wrangle the project leadership out of his hands. wouldn't want to. that's why i said i'm waiting for his reaction to recent discussions
[17:36] <troy_s> thorwil: As clearly there is no respect amongst the participants to gravitate to a single person as arbitrator of worth.
[17:36] <troy_s> thorwil: Problem is I don't think anyone sees the value of the leadership.
[17:37] <troy_s> thorwil: If your leader makes poor choices, it is a moot point. Yes you pick a direction. Yes you make 'progress', but you still end up with GIMP.
[17:37] <troy_s> thorwil: And I have no idea what 'professional' means.
[17:41] <thorwil> troy_s: i think people who don't handle such terms with any care frequently mean, when the speak of "professional" quality: made with a level of craftsmanship that implies the creator must have spend so much time doing this kind of thing and/or has such a "talent", that he likely earns money with it, or could earn money with it
[17:41] <thorwil> needless to say, i hate the misuse of that term. belongs in a list next to "intuitive"
[17:41] <troy_s> thorwil: It's yet another empty and vacuous term. Professionals were _paid_ to create the packaging http://blog.canonical.com/?p=18.  The biggest problem with most is that Inkscape creates perfect curves and precision lines.
[17:43] <troy_s> thorwil: "Clean and easy on the eyes" tripe.
[17:43] <thorwil> i saw an average user just recently. sadly with the 0.3 part of his 1.3 children. nasty to look at
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: What shocks me is that you end up with people that would readily acknowledge that their illustration / drawing skills are ... mediocre at best, and yet so many willingly pick up Inkscape and start 'working'.
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: It's not going to get better in an application. Period.
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: All of the same guidelines and principles apply.
[17:48] <thorwil> troy_s: when some of my fellow industrial design students picked up 3D apps and tried using them early in the process, we saw lots of "minimalistic" designs, decidedly unlike the things we tended to sketch ...
[17:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Hate to say it, but minimalism is a byproduct of Modernism. Modernism is dead.
[17:52] <troy_s> thorwil: Has been for a while...
[17:52] <thorwil> troy_s: sheesh, get down. minimalist as in: very obviously based on primitives
[17:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Really? Even _Microsoft_ sees it in some capacities - http://www.technobuzz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/offical-windows-7-wallpaper-technobuzz-net-3.jpg
[17:53] <thorwil> just the things that happened to be easy to do
[17:54] <troy_s> thorwil: It's been done like dinner for some time. A few companies still try to peddle it, but it's pretty stale. Postmodernism has been around since _I_ went to University... and that's a few years ago now. It's hitting mainstream in many ways.
[17:54] <thorwil> you're still on a tangent
[17:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Yes, _we_ are.
[17:55] <troy_s> thorwil: ;)
[17:56] <troy_s> thorwil: I think the picture becomes pretty clear when the ability to 'design' something in a collaborative setting is trumped by misplaced (and questionable) subjectivity.
[17:56] <troy_s> thorwil: Pentagram does it. We don't. Yet.
[17:57] <thorwil> troy_s: i would love to see you hold a talk about (post)modernism for a floss crowd
[17:57] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL (You see this one? http://www.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/windows_7_wallpaper-500x312.jpg)
[17:58] <thorwil> afterwards a talk about the importance of audience ;)
[17:58] <troy_s> thorwil: Those two are default wallpapers. The dire desperation has actually yielded some innovation at starchy old MS.
[17:58] <troy_s> thorwil: Including the Zune HD design, which is nothing short of beautiful (interface wise - and as you well know, I'm pained to suggest anything MS for anything as 'beautiful' lol)
[18:00] <troy_s> thorwil: Problem is, pomo still requires craftsmanship.
[18:00] <troy_s> thorwil: It isn't like you can just throw crap at the wall.
[18:00] <thorwil> pomo?
[18:01] <troy_s> thorwil: PostModernism. http://konigi.com/notebook/typography-ui-zune-hd
[18:01] <troy_s> thorwil: That typography work is pretty bloody stunning.
[18:01] <thorwil> http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/northamerica/pomo.html
[18:01] <troy_s> thorwil: It's a very beautiful bit of work.
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: If they get to the point where music is playing you will see it.
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: It's pretty stunning.
[18:02] <thorwil> troy_s: already know it, thanks to that always preaching canadian guy ;>
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Lol.
[18:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Anyways, I'm off.
[18:03] <thorwil> cya
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Got to shout, because people is deaf around here.
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Keep the chin up and see if you can suss out a solution with the guys cranking the work out.
[18:03] <troy_s> thorwil: And avoid that asstastic Ubuntu title font in all ways. If you are going to use it, hide it. Bury it.
[18:04] <troy_s> thorwil: It's just nasty.
[20:05] <thorwil> cute. font matrix in karmic has dysfunctional checkboxes, so you can't actually disable fonts. just a part of core functionality, so why bother?
[20:08]  * thorwil builds newer version from source