[02:00] <vorian> @now
[02:09] <st33med> @what?
[03:02] <lool> NCommander, ogra: I think the thunderbird issue should be findable in the VCS log or a quick bisect, no?
[08:01] <dholbach> hello everybody, we should have persia, soren and nixternal here
[08:01] <dholbach> who's here for the MC meeting?
[08:01]  * stgraber waves
[08:01]  * nellery is here
[08:01] <nixternal> yodle yodle yodle
[08:01] <nixternal> agenda?
[08:01] <dholbach> hi stgraber and nellery :)
[08:02] <dholbach> nixternal, persia, soren: who wants to chair?
[08:02]  * persia waves
[08:02]  * persia doesn't today
[08:02] <dholbach> ok, I understand - I do it :-)
[08:02] <dholbach> #startmeeting
[08:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 02:02. The chair is dholbach.
[08:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[08:02] <dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
[08:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
[08:02] <dholbach> nixternal: agenda ^ :-)
[08:03] <nixternal> looking at it now :)
[08:03] <dholbach> vorian, AnAnt: you guys around?
[08:03] <persia> First up is AnAnt, who can't make it today.
[08:03] <vorian> YUS!
[08:03] <dholbach> ok great, let's take vorian first then
[08:03] <persia> vorian, So, You put MOTU/Core-Dev as your application type.  Which are you seeking today?
[08:04] <dholbach> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication
[08:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication
[08:04] <vorian> persia: MOTU
[08:04] <persia> OK.  So we'll ignore the application for now, and just do a MOTU renewal?
[08:05] <vorian> Yes, if that's okay?
[08:05] <persia> That's fine.  The other option was to do a application for core-dev recommendation :)
[08:05] <nixternal> why is it everytime we do a meeting that has to do with membership lp is dead for me?
[08:05] <dholbach> nixternal: what do yo umean?
[08:05] <persia> So, for MOTU renewal, the thing I always want to know is: What do you plan to work on if renewed?
[08:06] <nixternal> takes forever to load up, it is up now
[08:07] <vorian> persia: I plan on continuing to work on KDE related packaging with the Kubuntu team, including most of the KDE stack - and several neet aps in universe.  I also would like to rejoin sponsors
[08:07] <persia> All areas where you've done great work in the past :)
[08:08] <nixternal> Care to explain the reasoning behind jettisoning MOTU originally, and what you plan on doing to prevent that sort of thing from happening again?
[08:08] <vorian> thanks :)
[08:08]  * nixternal had to be the ass :)
[08:08] <vorian> nixternal: fair question
[08:08]  * dholbach learned the word "jettison" today
[08:08] <nixternal> plus I wanted to beat persia to the question :)
[08:08] <nixternal> dholbach: I used it pretty much every day aboard ship in the navy :)
[08:10] <vorian> I was extremely frustrated with the way the TB meeting went down, frustrated with my responses, the timing of it, the whole thing.  Then there were some other areas in real life that were causing me to be stressed out as well.
[08:11] <vorian> I almost immediatley regretted doing it, and have had a few months to ponder what I could have done differently
[08:11] <nixternal> has it been that long already?
[08:11] <vorian> which is just to take a step back, and chill out
[08:11] <vorian> yeah :/
[08:12] <dholbach> vorian: how many areas in Ubuntu do you see right now that are frustrating to you?
[08:12] <nixternal> personally, since I get to work with you every day, I think that was honestly the best thing you could have done in regards to chilling out, as you have become more all around in the community as well
[08:12] <vorian> dholbach: none right now.
[08:12] <persia> vorian, I can't believe that.    It's what I really should have done.
[08:15] <vorian> dholbach, persia: yes, actually there are a few Kubuntu things that frustrate me - we seem to have slipped a bit in qa
[08:16] <dholbach> that makes sense, especially as we're a very distributed team and have different cultures, context goes missing on IRC, etc. etc. - it's very easy to take things wrong on a bad day
[08:16] <vorian> it's a topic on out "to do" list for Karmic - and I intend to help out on the QA side of things
[08:16] <nixternal> for me, getting back to the development roots has helped curve a current session of burnout I was starting to face...I still love the community, but I had to step back from being so entwined
[08:16] <vorian> dholbach: agreed
[08:16] <nixternal> w00t, vorian and I rocking the QA
[08:16] <persia> vorian, So, to get back to the last question you were asking in confirmation procedures: can you share any details on some of the pitfalls involved in changing between different versions of libdb?
[08:17] <persia> s/asking/asked/
[08:17] <nixternal> I have one more apport todo first then it is off to the races with qa and hopefully talking to ara about stuff and polling them for some assistance to get everything kickstarted
[08:18]  * nixternal feels good cop bad cop
[08:19] <vorian> persia: if the transition is not done correctly existing data could be lost.
[08:20] <persia> Or corrupted, but yes.  Thanks :)
[08:20] <persia> Is there a way to check if a given package will suffer that fate?
[08:21] <vorian> yes, if 'transation' is in the source code
[08:21]  * persia is done with questions
[08:21] <dholbach> nixternal, soren: any more questions?
[08:22] <nixternal> dholbach: not from me, I have seen vorian grow since his little break, which really wasn't a break in all honestly...he has rebounded very well from the prior situation and I am so happy that he stuck around
[08:22]  * dholbach is done too
[08:23] <dholbach> soren? :)
[08:23] <vorian> nixternal: i'm happy to have lurked around, helping too :)
[08:23] <soren> Sorry, my phone rang.
[08:23]  * soren catches up.
[08:24] <soren> Nah, I think you guys covered it pretty well.
[08:24] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Stephen Stalcup re-join the MOTU team?
[08:24] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Stephen Stalcup re-join the MOTU team?.
[08:24] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[08:24] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[08:24] <dholbach> +1
[08:24] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[08:24] <nixternal> +1
[08:24] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[08:24] <soren> +1
[08:24] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[08:25] <persia> +1
[08:25] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[08:25] <dholbach> [endvote]
[08:25] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[08:25] <dholbach> congratulations vorian and welcome back
[08:25] <vorian> thanks!
[08:25] <dholbach> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NickEllery/MOTUApplication
[08:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NickEllery/MOTUApplication
[08:25] <dholbach> hiya nellery - still around?
[08:25] <nellery> yup, I'm here
[08:26] <dholbach> how are you doing? everything alright?
[08:26] <nixternal> congrats and welcome back skooter
[08:26] <nellery> I'm pretty good, a bit nervous of course
[08:26] <vorian> :)
[08:27] <dholbach> nellery: your application lists nhandler and me as endorsements... is there anybody else you worked primarily with?
[08:27] <persia> nellery, You mention a couple things in "Things I could do better" that worry me: specifically "Ensuring that there no errors in uploads by going out of my way to double and triple check " and "Not to be too overconfident that an upload is perfect as it may blind me from errors ".  How do you intend to protect yourself against these issues without a sponsor?
[08:28] <nellery> dholbach: primarily in the karmic cycle, it has been you two who have done most of my sponsorship
[08:28] <nellery> I did get in touch with another sponsor, but they didn't provide any endorsements
[08:30] <nellery> persia: Errors have been nearly non-existant for the past while.  I intend to keep it this way by not rushing, staying within my confidence level, asking questions when necessary, and as mentioned, double checking for small errors
[08:31] <persia> nellery, So these are things you're already doing better?
[08:31] <e-jat> congrate vorian
[08:32] <nellery> persia: essentially, and I believe that it will only get even better
[08:32] <nixternal> nellery: I was going to ask about *rushing* as it seems to be a common pitfull among many these days...one thing I would like to propose is that you do not stick within your confidence level and that you in fact step out of it from time-to-time, it will help you grow not only yourself, but also your level of confidence within yourself
[08:33] <persia> nellery, One of your sponsors comments that much of your work has been with merges.  Do you have a couple examples of bugfixes you've written that you thought were good?
[08:33] <nixternal> in times of going outside the box, it is fine to grab support along the way, a helping hand is always good when building up confidence
[08:34] <nellery> nixternal: I absolutely agree with that, but I also believe that without a sponsor, that should not be done over extravagently
[08:34] <nixternal> tis why I said a bit of hand holding is fine
[08:35] <dholbach> nellery: there's nothing wrong with saying "can somebody take a look at this?" on IRC :-)
[08:35] <\sh> 4 eyes are better than 2 eyes...even old maintainers do mistakes...and one reviewer more is helping you, me, everybody doing this kind of work
[08:35] <vorian> i sponsored nellery on a few plasmoids, he did a very solid job
[08:35] <nixternal> a lot of us MOTU ask others to look over our packages from time-to-time before uploading...it is actually a good thing to do, because after sticking your nose in the same thing all of the time, you start to become lazy or you start missing stuff, especially little thing
[08:35] <nixternal> s
[08:35] <dholbach> nellery: coming back to the question I asked earlier... is there many people (maybe on IRC) that you work with? is kde and science something you'd like to work on in the future or are you going stay "all over the place"? :)
[08:36] <nellery> dholbach: personally I wish to stay "all over the place" within universe
[08:37] <nellery> without any specific areas I restrict myself to
[08:38] <dholbach>  ... and that with so many interesting packages in main! :-)
[08:39] <nixternal> for instance, on bug 384331 looks like config.sub and config.guess made it into the debdiff...just to point out that even as a MOTU, stepping out and guidance are good, as nhandler did in this situation...I can't tell you how many times I have missed either this sort of thing or the big one that always hit me were translation files ending up in it...and like \sh said, 4 yes are better than 2 at time
[08:39] <nellery> persia: sorry missed your question.  Back in Jaunty I noticed that some plasmoids were not renamed during the transition, and opened bug #329627 to fix this
[08:40] <nellery> nixternal: yes, and without a sponsor, guidance outside of bug reports is definetly something I will look to whenever necessary
[08:40] <persia> nellery, Any bugfixes involving code changes?
[08:40] <nixternal> groovy
[08:40] <nellery> persia: for the most part I'm not much a coder
[08:41] <nellery> getting better, but still not good enough to make those sort of fixes
[08:42] <dholbach> persia, geser, soren, nixternal: any more questions?
[08:42] <nixternal> I am good
[08:43] <nixternal> I got him to say exactly what I wanted..I should be a cop or something, I am that darn good :p
[08:43] <persia> nellery, What classes of differences from Debian should be preserved?
[08:43] <dholbach> nixternal: you probably better shouldn't :)
[08:43] <nixternal> my laptop says it is 5:52pm
[08:43] <nixternal> brb
[08:44] <\sh> nixternal's a Bad Boy ;)
[08:44] <nixternal> had to hop on my other machine
[08:44] <nixternal> laptop locked up
[08:45] <soren> I'm good too.
[08:45] <nellery> persia: what do you mean by "classes of differences"?
[08:45] <soren> Sorry about being so slow to respond. My laptop seems to be swapping like crazy.
[08:46]  * soren switches to another machine
[08:46] <nixternal> hahaha, 2 machines down
[08:46] <persia> nellery, You say "As a sponsor, I would ensure that everything that should be forwarded is forwarded." when talking about forwarding patches to Debian.  What types of patches should be forwarded, and what type not forwarded?
[08:47] <nixternal> there we go, back to the laptp
[08:49] <nellery> persia: patches which fix bugs which affect both distributions as well as those which add features such as desktop files, watch files, updated dependencies
[08:50] <nellery> patches which are not Ubuntu specific
[08:50] <persia> Well, some of the things you just mentioned often are Ubuntu-specific.  Any idea which might be?
[08:51] <geser> nellery: how do you determine if a bug exists in Debian too and is not due to some other changes in Ubuntu?
[08:51] <nixternal> persia: actually 2 of them could be :)
[08:52] <persia> nixternal, No hints.  I know you are qualified to be a MOTU :)
[08:52] <nixternal> lol
[08:52] <nellery> persia: updated dependencies may affect only one distribution, for example if the upstream releases are different versions, or that upstream version is only one or the other distribution
[08:53] <persia> nellery, Right.  Also, Ubuntu sometimes has special dependencies (like for LPintegration).
[08:53] <persia> And the other one?
[08:56] <nellery> a desktop file may be Ubuntu specific if it uses category not used in Debian
[08:56] <nixternal> booyah
[08:57] <persia> Well, no, because XDG categories are supposed to apply to both, but it was .desktop files.
[08:57] <dholbach> (or different names for the app, etc. - right :-))
[08:57] <nixternal> or, di...damn dholbach beat me to it
[08:57] <persia> (or different defaults for where to show, or whether to show by default)
[08:57] <persia> OK.  I'm done.
[08:58] <nixternal> yay, one step closer to taking out the trash and going to bed :)
[08:58] <dholbach> geser, soren: any more questions?
[08:58] <geser> no
[08:59] <soren> Nope.
[08:59] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Nick Ellery join the MOTU team?
[08:59] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Nick Ellery join the MOTU team?.
[08:59] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[08:59] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[08:59] <dholbach> +1
[08:59] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[08:59] <soren> +1
[08:59] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[09:00] <persia> +0 : I'd like a little more variation in work done, or more clear confidence in someone seeking to be a sponsor.
[09:00] <MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[09:00] <nixternal> +1
[09:00] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[09:00]  * soren apologises again... was swtiching back to the laptop
[09:00] <nixternal> figured you were, I did mine as I had my desktop up as well
[09:01] <dholbach> geser?
[09:01] <geser> +1
[09:01] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[09:01] <dholbach> [endvote]
[09:01] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
[09:01] <dholbach> congratulations nellery!
[09:01] <persia> nellery, Congratulations!
[09:01] <dholbach> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
[09:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
[09:01] <nixternal> congrats and welcome nellery...in regards to "sponsoring" I echo persia
[09:01] <dholbach> stgraber: still around? :)
[09:01]  * stgraber wakes up
[09:01] <nellery> thanks! persia: that's absolutely something I will put much effort into, and you should expect to see change
[09:02] <dholbach> :-)
[09:02] <dholbach> stgraber: how are you doing?
[09:02] <stgraber> dholbach: tired but fine :)
[09:02] <persia> nellery, Take extra care, because if you're not much of a coder, it's easy to be confused when reviewing a code patch.
[09:02] <soren> stgraber: Sheesh, what time is it at your place now? 4 AM or something?
[09:02] <dholbach> survived UDS without Ubuflu?
[09:02] <stgraber> 4am yeah
[09:02]  * ogra looks up
[09:02] <nellery> thank you all.. time for some sleep
[09:02] <stgraber> dholbach: strangely yes :) first time it happens
[09:02] <dholbach> nellery: good night!
[09:02] <dholbach> great :)
[09:03] <dholbach> stgraber: so what kind of packages are you interested in working on specifically?
[09:03] <stgraber> well, other than the packages I already have upload right for, I'd mainly be working on education packages for edubuntu and bug fixing in the server area
[09:04] <soren> \o/
[09:04] <persia> stgraber, What measures do you think should be taken to make the processes clearer?
[09:04] <ogra> seein soren cheer, /me sees virtualized LTSP ahead
[09:05] <ogra> :)
[09:05] <nixternal> oh no, who let ogra in here?
[09:05]  * ogra pokes nixternal in the ribs :)
[09:06]  * nixternal uploaded edubuntu-desktop with kde* only in the meta
[09:06] <stgraber> persia: recently, it was the SRU process that wasn't really clear to a few of my co-workers. It was well described on the wiki but without the "nag someone from the team" part, the bug can stay on launchpad for a while :)
[09:06] <ogra> heh
[09:06] <nixternal> it should be KDE desktop, since all of the apps are :p
[09:06] <persia> stgraber, Right.  What should be done to improve that?
[09:07] <stgraber> persia: probably having more motu-sru members would help or document the steps to take if for example you don't get an answer in your sru bug report after x weeks
[09:08] <persia> stgraber, How do you expect archive-reorganisation to affect Edubuntu?
[09:09] <stgraber> well, I hope it'll make it a lot easier to get new contributors, though in the meantime we're looking at also having a few packages from universe in Edubuntu (that's in the TB's agenda for next meeting IIRC)
[09:10] <stgraber> currently it's kind of hard to find new contributors as if they want direct upload rights they need to be core developers
[09:10] <dholbach> stgraber: how many packages (roughly) are in edubuntu right now (that are not ubuntu+ltsp+friends)?
[09:10] <stgraber> dholbach: ltsp is actually no longer part of edubuntu :) let me find some numbers
[09:10] <dholbach> oh really?
[09:10] <nixternal> enough packages to make the addon cd full :)
[09:10] <nixternal> well just over half full
[09:10] <stgraber> yeah, it's on Ubuntu alternate since Hardy (IIRC)
[09:11] <persia> stgraber, you applied for MOTU apparently in large part towads seeking your per-package uploader permissions.  Have you found you worked in many other areas as well, or did you feel that you were mostly concentrated on the packages for which you had per-package upload rights?
[09:12] <ogra> dholbach, missed the memo, eh ? :)
[09:12] <stgraber> persia: mostly on the packages for which I have the ACL and for a few others but that are also in main
[09:12] <dholbach> persia: good question... stgraber: I was just about to ask what kind of server stuff you'd like to work on
[09:12] <dholbach> ogra: well... I can't read ALL the memos :)
[09:13] <stgraber> wget http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/jaunty/release/edubuntu-9.04-addon-i386.list  -O - -q | grep deb$ | wc -l
[09:13] <stgraber> 228
[09:13] <stgraber> that's for the edubuntu addon cd
[09:13] <ogra> LTSP relies on a good bunch of server packages ... to enhance or improve it working on these packages will be required
[09:14] <ogra> (and i wasnt actually joking when i said virtualized LTSP as an option of vm builder for example ;) )
[09:14] <stgraber> well, LTSP's dependencies for a start (dhcp, tftp, inetd, ...) if needed and also basically everything else as my company does infrastructure work and so we touch basically every bit of the server stuff :)
[09:14] <ogra> ... or LTSP in the clouds ;)
[09:14] <stgraber> currently playing with OpenVZ and libvirt for example
[09:14] <soren> ogra: I was about to say just that.
[09:14] <soren> ogra: (the cloud thing)
[09:15] <stgraber> well, I'm currently sponsoring highvoltage to get ltsp-cluster in universe
[09:15] <persia> stgraber, One of your sponsors mentions that you'll be expected to be working with the Edubuntu seeds.  How are they organised?
[09:15] <ogra> soren, i know, i read your mind ... just wanted to be faster ;)
[09:15] <soren> ogra: :)
[09:15] <stgraber> so we'll have the loadbalancer and control center part for LTSP that could the be used for LTSP in the cloud
[09:15] <dholbach> stgraber: is there anything that you'd be too scared to touch in main?
[09:18] <stgraber> persia: we currently have one for each of our meta packages (preschool/primary/secondary/tertiary)  then the ones for the edu packages for both kde and gnome IIRC, also one for the edubuntu content server (moodle basically)
[09:19] <stgraber> though that's on my list of stuff to do soon with the Edubuntu project becoming a lot more active recently, haven't had a chance to look at the details yet
[09:21] <stgraber> dholbach: sure :) I'm not going to play with kernel, X, ... unless I get that review by someone else first as these are things I'm not used to touch (although for X I'm getting to know it quite well recently) and so don't know the details and decisions which were taken in the past
[09:21] <dholbach> persia, soren, geser, nixternal: more questions?
[09:21] <stgraber> there's always the difference between having the right to do something and actually doing it without asking :)
[09:22] <soren> Not really.
[09:22]  * soren things this is an easy one :)
[09:22] <soren> thinks, even.
[09:22] <persia> Nothing else from me.
[09:22] <nixternal> none here
[09:22] <geser> stgraber: for someone applying as core-dev I've expected to see some sponsored uploads to main, but your LP page doesn't show any. any explanations?
[09:23] <ogra> geser, he already has limited main uploads rights for various packages ... i (and laserjosk) did sponsor him in intrepid
[09:23] <ogra> *laserjock
[09:24] <stgraber> geser: hmm, I already have the rights for most of my uploads, though I recently got libXcb uploaded and compiz (though part of another fix so not mentioned as the uploader)
[09:26] <dholbach> geser: any more questions?
[09:26] <geser> I assumed that extending the upload rights to full core-dev implies a broader interested in some other packages which should (hopefully) be also seen in sponsored uploads in this area
[09:26] <stgraber> indeed, that'd be edubuntu in my case
[09:26] <stgraber> edubuntu wasn't active until last UDS
[09:26] <stgraber> well, it was but not as active as we'd like it to be
[09:27] <geser> dholbach: done
[09:27] <dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Stéphane Graber be recommended for core-dev membership?
[09:27] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Stéphane Graber be recommended for core-dev membership?.
[09:27] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[09:27] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[09:27] <nixternal> +1
[09:27] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[09:27] <dholbach> +1
[09:27] <MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[09:27]  * nixternal can take the garbage out now and go to bed?
[09:27] <soren> +11
[09:27] <soren> whoops
[09:28] <soren> +1
[09:28] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[09:28] <nixternal> lol
[09:28] <dholbach> soren: bad call! :)
[09:28] <ogra> good call !!
[09:28]  * soren picks up a penalty card
[09:28] <persia> +1.  I'd *much* rather recommend as edubuntu-dev, but I don't think we can do that yet, and I think stgraber has the wisdom to restrict himself.
[09:28] <geser> +1
[09:28] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[09:28] <ogra> persia, doesnt help with all the server packages :)
[09:28] <nixternal> congrats and good look on the next step
[09:29]  * ogra hugs stgraber
[09:29] <dholbach> weird... seems like persia's vote was not counted?
[09:29] <persia> ogra, I don't see evidence of the server work.
[09:29] <stgraber> thanks !
[09:29]  * persia tries again
[09:29] <ogra> persia, LTSP uses about 10 server packages that need to be touched often
[09:29] <dholbach> persia: try again with out the '.'
[09:29] <nixternal> are we done?
[09:29] <persia> +1 although I'd prefer to be recommending for edubuntu-dev
[09:29] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[09:29] <dholbach> [endvote]
[09:29]  * stgraber looks at his bed and then the clock ... doh ... only 2 hours before having to wake up :)
[09:29] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[09:29] <persia> There we go.  '.' kills it.
[09:29] <dholbach> thanks a bunch everybody and congratulations stgraber!
[09:30] <stgraber> dholbach: thanks
[09:30] <nixternal> alrighty!!! \o/
[09:30] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Any other business?
[09:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
[09:30]  * dholbach is happy to do the honours
[09:30] <nixternal> note here
[09:30]  * nixternal needs to go to bed...can barely stay awake
[09:30] <persia> ogra, I don't see why that couldn't be covered by an extension of the LTSP ACL, and I think it's separate from the other documented work.
[09:30] <nixternal> g'nite!
[09:30] <dholbach> nixternal: sleep tight then :)
[09:30]  * ogra adds topic, keeping nixternal busy
[09:30]  * nixternal hugs everyone!
[09:30] <nixternal> except for ogra
[09:30] <ogra> heh
[09:30] <nixternal> nite nite
[09:30] <persia> Who volunteers to do the admin for the meeting?
[09:31] <persia> Ah.  Thanks dholbach :)
[09:31] <dholbach> anything else?
[09:31] <dholbach> 3
[09:31] <dholbach> 2
[09:31] <soren> 2
[09:31] <dholbach> 1
[09:31] <dholbach> Meeting adjourned.
[09:31] <soren> \o/
[09:31] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[09:31] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 03:31.
[09:31] <dholbach> thanks a lot everybody
[09:31] <dholbach> and congratulations to nellery, stgraber and vorian again :)
[10:16] <highvoltage> yay stgraber core-dev \o.
[10:16] <highvoltage> yay stgraber core-dev \o/
[11:05] <dholbach> highvoltage: recommended, the TB needs to approve still
[15:11] <AnAnt> Hello
[15:11] <AnAnt> meeting is over ?
[15:14] <persia> AnAnt, Indeed.  Hours ago.
[16:00]  * slangasek waves
[16:00]  * ttx waves
[16:00] <fader> Howdy.
[16:00]  * apw zones in
[16:00] <heno> hey
[16:01] <pitti> hello
[16:01] <superm1> hai
[16:01] <sbeattie> hey
[16:01] <cjwatson> afternoon
[16:05] <slangasek> mdz, lool, rickspencer3, Riddell, Hobbsee, ScottK: there?
[16:05] <slangasek> rickspencer3: oh, I guess you're here since you just joined :)
[16:05] <slangasek> ttx: are you sitting in for dendrobates?
[16:05] <ttx> slangasek: last minute replacement, yes
[16:05] <slangasek> ok
[16:05] <dyfet> slangasek: i am standing in for lool
[16:05] <rickspencer3> slangasek: I'm lurking today, pitti si driving for desktop
[16:05] <rickspencer3> (as usual :) )
[16:05]  * apw is sitting in for pgraner
[16:06] <slangasek> robbiew and pgraner both send their regrets
[16:06]  * pgraner is lurking due to conf call
[16:06] <robbiew> ditto
[16:06] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:06] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is slangasek.
[16:06] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:07] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-12 - agenda
[16:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-12 - agenda
[16:07] <slangasek> let's get right into it, then
[16:08] <slangasek> I've been asked to bump Foundations up because cjwatson has another conflict, so let's cover that first
[16:08] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team
[16:08] <cjwatson> right, sorry about that
[16:09] <cjwatson> Robbie is working through a feature list; for Canonical folks it's at https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.10 but I think he wants to get all the specs into it before putting it on the public wiki
[16:09] <cjwatson> that should happen shortly
[16:10] <cjwatson> current count is 7 essential, 9 high, 14 medium, 2 low, with several low still to come; draw your own conclusions about delivery :-)
[16:11] <cjwatson> regarding the bugs Steve listed in the agenda: I fixed bug 385995 today, and Michael apparently fixed bug 378997 a little while back but didn't close the bug, so I'll clean up the metadata there
[16:12] <slangasek> ah, nice :)
[16:12] <cjwatson> the introduction of GRUB 2 in Alpha 2 was a bit rocky, I thought, so personally I'm going to be putting a fair bit of effort for the next milestone on making sure that's more solid
[16:12]  * slangasek goes rummaging for more bugs for next week...
[16:13] <cjwatson> one of our high-priority specs is the switch to building as i586
[16:13] <cjwatson> IIRC we said we'd do test rebuilds after alpha 2 ...
[16:13] <slangasek> infinity poked me about that yesterday in order to take a snapshot
[16:14] <cjwatson> oh, he's on it already? good
[16:15] <cjwatson> other than that I don't think I have anything else to report - anything from others to us?
[16:16] <ttx> cjwatson: I see bug 364616 on steve's list for Server
[16:17] <cjwatson> mm, that probably ought to become ours
[16:17] <slangasek> ok
[16:17]  * ttx hugs cjwatson
[16:17] <apw> cjwatson, has the work to make grub 'quiet' fallen anywhere?
[16:17] <cjwatson> it'll be handled as part of our installer/iscsi specification (which is part "fix all the bugs", part development)
[16:17] <cjwatson> apw: part of the foundations-karmic-grub2 spec, as yet incompletely drafted
[16:17] <apw> cjwatson, thanks
[16:18] <slangasek> cjwatson: should I assign that bug to anyone in particular?
[16:18] <cjwatson> slangasek: if you need an assignee for it right now, it's me; I'm not sure whether that spec is going to stay with me
[16:19] <slangasek> don't need one per se, but it's good to have; assigned
[16:19] <slangasek> is that still a realistic target for jaunty SRU, btw?
[16:20] <cjwatson> I think so
[16:20] <slangasek> ok
[16:20] <cjwatson> people won't be able to do installations directly, but still
[16:20]  * slangasek nods
[16:20] <slangasek> moving on
[16:20] <slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
[16:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
[16:21] <slangasek> (thanks, cjwatson)
[16:21] <heno> hi
[16:21] <slangasek> heno, fader, sbeattie: hello
[16:21]  * fader waves.
[16:21] <heno> fader: HW testing?
[16:21] <fader> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
[16:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
[16:21] <fader> Bug 384861 is interfering with testing the lab servers (it's not initializing Broadcom ethernet cards so the PXE install can't proceed)
[16:21] <fader> That's hitting a large number of systems so it's a fairly big blocker for us on server testing
[16:21] <fader> There are a few other systems that haven't reported results that I'm looking into but that is the only big issue I've seen so far.
[16:22] <slangasek> apw: can you make sure that bug gets priority attention from the kernel team?
[16:22] <apw> that bug has some proposed patches, and they are out for review on the kernel list
[16:22] <apw> it seems to be unassigned, so i will take it and drive those in
[16:22] <slangasek> thanks
[16:22] <slangasek> [ACTION] apw to drive bug #384861
[16:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  apw to drive bug #384861
[16:23] <cjwatson> should mostly be a matter of applying the patches and getting quick testing turnaround at this point
[16:23] <apw> yep ... i acked them last night, will hastle others for review and get them in
[16:24] <heno> sbeattie says nothing to report on regressions this week
[16:24] <heno> though I will point out that we are tracking Karmic changes for high risk items: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/RegressionImmunisation
[16:25] <heno> so please let us know about major upstream or local changes that can be high risk
[16:25] <heno> (we'll also be asking around)
[16:25] <slangasek> :)
[16:26] <pitti> am I back?
[16:26] <slangasek> didn't know you were gone
[16:26] <pitti> I fell off the internet for a while, sorry
[16:26] <heno> that's all from QA
[16:26] <slangasek> heno, fader: great, thanks much!
[16:27] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop team
[16:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team
[16:27] <pitti> as usual, desktop status is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:27] <pitti> TBH I didn't do much in terms of chasing bugs just yet, I just updated their status on the page above
[16:27] <pitti> for alpha-3, I hope we can land the following structure changes:
[16:27] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:27] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:27] <pitti> - pidgin -> empathy
[16:27] <pitti> - new gdm
[16:27] <pitti> - symptom based bug reports
[16:27] <pitti> - perhaps gnome-bluetooth
[16:30] <slangasek> pitti: bug #341898> should the non-kernel task be closed, in that case?
[16:30] <superm1> unfortunately i've got a report that the symptoms of bug 341898 have resurfaced on -vesa.  i'm doubtful it's fixed on -ati as upstream still feels that it's a bug in QT ( even though all other drivers work in jaunty ). there is a proposed patch for jaunty that I saw on the mesa mailing list for -ati that i'm going to try.
[16:30] <pitti> slangasek: ideally yes, but bryce wanted to keep it open for bug reporters to find it more easily
[16:30] <slangasek> pitti: ah
[16:31] <slangasek> 376396> Riddell tells me this is fixed (which is why I let the alpha-2 milestone for it slide), but I don't know where or how so I haven't closed the bug report
[16:32] <pitti> slangasek: ah, thanks
[16:32] <slangasek> superm1: I guess you'll be following up on that then, to make sure it really gets fixed?
[16:32]  * pitti isn't well prepared today admittedly, I didn't expect a meeting today
[16:32] <superm1> slangasek, yeah. i'm going to look at it on -vesa first as it's more common (swrast based drivers), but then i'll be revisiting -ati
[16:34] <slangasek> so all in all, the set of X reports for this cycle seem fairly mild so far; is that because KMS hasn't been turned on by default yet? :)
[16:35] <pitti> slangasek: well, we are using UXA/DRI2 by default now
[16:35] <slangasek> yes
[16:35] <apw> the next merge, and next kernel will contain a lot of updates, so we may well see more pain after that
[16:35] <pitti> I guess that already did a good job of replacing old known bugs with slightly fewer new bugs :)
[16:35] <slangasek> yay, progress. :)
[16:35] <pitti> but for alpha-3 I want to see KMS by default
[16:36] <slangasek> agreed
[16:36] <apw> pitti, ack, i think we agreed to that generally
[16:36] <apw> i will get with bryce to check we have the x bits and then enable it
[16:36] <apw> ( for intel )
[16:36] <pitti> apw: working fine on a lot of mahcines once you add the modprobe.d blurp
[16:36] <cjwatson> usplash hasn't been updated for KMS yet, I don't think
[16:36] <pitti> cjwatson: I'm fine with adjusting that
[16:37] <pitti> it's just moving it out of initramfs into the normal startup sequence
[16:37] <cjwatson> ok, I had a patch to attempt to run it at the native resolution if KMS was available too
[16:37] <pitti> (or disabling it completely for the time being, which is the final goal anyway)
[16:37] <cjwatson> but I had some kind of transient trouble on my machine
[16:37] <cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/194451/
[16:37] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/194451/
[16:37] <slangasek> pitti: erm, the examples of places where usplash was to be kept includes things that run from initramfs
[16:37] <slangasek> (decrypting hard drives)
[16:37] <cjwatson> yes, it needs to still have the ability to run in the initramfs
[16:38] <cjwatson> it may not want to do so by default for karmic, but still
[16:38] <pitti> slangasek: right, but then it will disappear as soon as KMS kicks in
[16:38] <slangasek> sure
[16:38] <cjwatson> which means that in such cases we need to start KMS in the initramfs, IMO
[16:38] <slangasek> sounds like this can probably be taken off-line if needed, though
[16:38] <cjwatson> and *then* start usplash
[16:38] <pitti> the details will be discussed with Scott, but for now we could just disable it
[16:38] <slangasek> anything else for desktop?
[16:38] <pitti> cjwatson: or that
[16:38] <pitti> slangasek: not from me
[16:39] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile
[16:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile
[16:39] <slangasek> dyfet: hello
[16:39] <dyfet> being a late substitute, I did not come with a specific list of bugs or items in advance, however, I would be happy to cover any items others feels needs to be discussed for mobile.
[16:39] <dyfet> My area is in arm development, and of course we are concerned with kernel issues there...but I see kernel is after me :)
[16:40] <AnAnt> Hello
[16:40] <dyfet> So if people have items related to mobile, feel free to introduce them.
[16:40] <slangasek> I see armel didn't get a timely d-i build for alpha-2 because of kernel flavor changes; is that something folks knew about, that should have been escalated earlier and given priority for fixing?
[16:41] <dyfet> That is part of the kernel issues I mentioned :)....
[16:41] <apw> armel need love in general.  we have a drive to get karmic up to snuff wtf jaunty support right now
[16:42] <cjwatson> I didn't realise until the build failure, basically - I don't know if I missed a mail about the flavour reduction
[16:42] <slangasek> only somewhat kernel-y - updating d-i is Foundation's bailiwick
[16:43] <apw> cjwatson, was that the reducion to one flavour?
[16:43] <cjwatson> yes
[16:43] <cjwatson> I don't see anything on -installer
[16:43] <dyfet> yes
[16:43] <slangasek> the ftbfs fix was merged into the d-i repo on the 8th, which wasn't too late for us to have had it uploaded; but the upload didn't happen and I didn't notice it myself until much later
[16:43] <apw> hrm sounds like a process failure our end then.  will feed that back as we have flavour changes coming
[16:43] <cjwatson> oh, meh, the lack of upload was probably my fault admittedly
[16:43] <apw> as part of the blueprints implementation
[16:44] <cjwatson> I think Michael said he had more ports fixing coming and I was waiting for that
[16:44] <dyfet> I will bring this back for others to discuss in mobile too
[16:44] <cjwatson> I'll at least arrange for an upload now, sorry about that
[16:44] <dyfet> I am aware of the issue, not the resolution :)
[16:45] <slangasek> ok, sounds like we have a handle on what went wrong in this case
[16:45] <slangasek> everyone please be sure that issues you know of that would block arm from being in future milestones get escalated / addressed
[16:46] <cjwatson> we still need to sort out the kernel issue that requires us to hardcode kernel versions in cdimage code
[16:46]  * slangasek nods
[16:46] <cjwatson> that's essentially a coordinated kernel/installer change
[16:46] <cjwatson> (the problem is that the installer udebs are shipped with versions in their vmlinuz etc. filenames, rather unnecessarily
[16:47] <cjwatson> )
[16:48] <dyfet> do we have any other arm or mobile issues in general?
[16:48] <slangasek> dyfet: that means if you guys know ARM is broken and you don't see it getting resolved by the week of the milestone, yell :)  There are a couple dozen images the release team tracks for the milestone, which means it's unfortunately easy to overlook ARM problems until it's too late given that we're also not doing the testing
[16:48] <cjwatson> I'm not sure I have a bug about it, I think it's basically http://paste.ubuntu.com/194463/ with added coordination
[16:48] <dyfet> slangasek: fair enough :)
[16:49] <slangasek> cjwatson: ah, the armel udeb naming is inconsistent with other archs?
[16:49] <cjwatson> udeb naming is consistent but not the contents
[16:49] <slangasek> ah
[16:49] <dyfet> oh?
[16:50] <cjwatson> lp_archive@cocoplum:/tmp/cjwatson$ dpkg -c /home/lp_archive/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux/kernel-image-2.6.30-8-generic-di_2.6.30-8.9_i386.udeb | grep vmlinuz
[16:50] <cjwatson> -rw-r--r-- root/root   3703120 2009-06-03 19:23 ./boot/vmlinuz
[16:50] <cjwatson> is basically the root of the problem
[16:50] <cjwatson> lp_archive@cocoplum:/tmp/cjwatson$ dpkg -c /home/lp_archive/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux/kernel-image-2.6.30-8-imx51-di_2.6.30-8.9_armel.udeb | grep vmlinuz
[16:50] <cjwatson> -rw-r--r-- root/root   1894532 2009-06-03 17:27 ./boot/vmlinuz-2.6.30-8-imx51
[16:50] <apw> cjwatson, sounds like and easy fix at least
[16:51] <cjwatson> yeah, patch above should fix it if we take care to do that at the same time as installer and cdimage changes
[16:51] <apw> i could test that change with your changes
[16:51] <cjwatson> we noticed in jaunty but didn't have time to do anything about it
[16:51] <apw> for the firmware udebs
[16:51] <cjwatson> and then the release sort of took over
[16:51] <slangasek> apw, cjwatson: can be followed up off-line?
[16:52] <apw> ack
[16:52] <cjwatson> yep
[16:52] <cjwatson> I have to go now anyway
[16:52] <slangasek> ok - thanks :)
[16:52] <slangasek> [ACTION] apw and cjwatson to follow up on clean-up of armel vmlinuz naming
[16:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  apw and cjwatson to follow up on clean-up of armel vmlinuz naming
[16:52] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team
[16:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team
[16:52] <slangasek> apw: and you're on
[16:52] <apw> Features wise, the majority of the development items are proceeding well, most specs are either done or nearing completion.  The main deliverables which affect the release are proceeding well.  KMS testing is ongoing, using previews of the Intel and ATI trees, in concert with the x-swat team.  Grub2 testing is going well with almost no failures.  Testing of aufs replacements is also ongoing with test kernels available.  Apparmour development is p
[16:52] <apw> roceeding with the aim of hitting the .31 merge window.  Arm am51 support is missing, this is being worked as part of the current enablement work should have a timetable by the end of next week.
[16:52] <slangasek> 9dyfet: thanks)
[16:53] <apw> You called out two bugs for the kernel:
[16:53] <slangasek> what's am51?  different than imx51?
[16:53] <apw> typeo ... amx51
[16:53] <apw> imx51 jez
[16:53] <dyfet> imx51? :)
[16:54] <apw> lp#359338: apparmour and ecryptfs -- there is a workaround, but its not satisfactory.  No plan currently, need to review this jjohansen
[16:54] <apw> lp#357768: inconsistent NETFILTER configuration -- this has been fixed already and the change is in the 2.6.30-9.10 upload which was pushed up today, i've already updated the bug to reflect reality
[16:54] <slangasek> great!
[16:55] <jjohansen> apw: Karmic AppArmor won't have a problem with ecryptfs
[16:55] <jdstrand> \o/
[16:55] <apw> excellent news, could you update the bug with that information
[16:56] <jjohansen> apw: yeah
[16:56] <slangasek> how soon will .31 show up in karmic?
[16:56] <apw> well the merge window only opened yesterday, so two weeks before an -rc1
[16:57] <apw> if it goes to -rc9 we should have a released kernel about 3 weeks before beta by my calculations
[16:57] <slangasek> but we'll be switched over in karmic soon after rc1?
[16:57] <apw> we are committed to .31 and will rebase to -rc1 as soon as it drops.  it will take a little longer as -rc1 is a monster
[16:58]  * slangasek nods
[16:59] <apw> nothing else from me
[16:59] <slangasek> anything else for apw from others?
[17:00] <slangasek> apw: thanks
[17:00] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team
[17:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server team
[17:00] <slangasek> ttx: heya
[17:00] <ttx> slangasek: hey!
[17:00] <ttx> So looking at the lists, there sin't so much bugs in the lists for us
[17:00] <pitti> apw: yay for rc1 early
[17:01] <ttx> We already talked about bug 364616
[17:01] <ttx> For bug 326768 I just got a status update from mathiaz
[17:01] <ttx> Fix was uploaded for Jaunty but not yet in Karmic
[17:02] <ttx> Apparently it might not make sense in the context of moving MySQl 5.1 to main
[17:02] <slangasek> might not make sense, or might not be a priority?
[17:02] <ttx> He needs to get some input from the debian maintainer
[17:03] <ttx> might not make sense.
[17:03] <slangasek> ok
[17:03] <ttx> there is a comment about how the Jaunty fix is not good at the end of that bug
[17:03] <ttx> mathiaz still needs to doublecheck that.
[17:03] <slangasek> alright
[17:03] <ttx> On the new features front...
[17:04] <ttx> Specs are currently being reviewed and prioritized
[17:04] <ttx> Most of them are linked to upstream work-in-progress (Eucalyptus 1.6, Likewise-Open 5.2...)
[17:04] <ttx> so we expect them to hit later rather than sooner
[17:05] <ttx> 3 specs are being targeted to alpha3
[17:05] <slangasek> in before feature freeze?
[17:05] <ttx> slangasek: sure :)
[17:06] <ttx> according to Dustin server-karmic-pristine-daily-virt-builds is basically done
[17:06] <ttx> server-karmic-kvm-qemu-packaging  should be doable
[17:06] <kirkland> ttx: https://edge.launchpad.net/~qemu/+archive/ppa
[17:06] <kirkland> ttx: daily builds of qemu and libvirt
[17:06] <ttx> server-karmic-automated-kvm-testing hasn't started
[17:07] <ttx> kirkland is confident on 2/3
[17:07] <ttx> slangasek: which brings the question... how accurate should this blueprint targeting be ?
[17:07] <ttx> slangasek: things we are reasonably sure to land ? Or that we hope to land ?
[17:08] <slangasek> ttx: well, targeting them to a milestone makes them fodder for discussion at the release meetings, which is good... they can always be retargeted if necessary
[17:08] <ttx> slangasek: then we are good :)
[17:08] <slangasek> plenty of blueprints don't get milestone targets at all
[17:09] <ttx> Nothing else from server side...
[17:09] <slangasek> ttx: no other bugs that you think should be escalated/tracked from your end?
[17:10] <ttx> slangasek: nothing yet.
[17:10] <slangasek> I find the server team keeps a low profile when it comes to RC bugs, and I'm never sure if that means the software is bug free or if y'all are just hiding your bugs. ;)
[17:10] <slangasek> anyone else have questions for ttx?
[17:11] <slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
[17:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
[17:11] <slangasek> ScottK also sends his regrets, which I only noticed after the meeting had started
[17:12] <slangasek> I haven't had a chance to catch up with him until now, but I'll follow up out-of-band
[17:13] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Known regressions
[17:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Known regressions
[17:13] <slangasek> this is your weekly Public Service Announcement requesting you use the regression-potential tag
[17:13] <slangasek> now easier than ever to add in LP :)
[17:13] <slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
[17:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
[17:14] <slangasek> we should be winning back some CD size soon, at least on alternates, due to OOo-l10n refactoring
[17:14] <slangasek> so that should be good
[17:14] <slangasek> we're pretty much langpack-less for alpha-2, however, due to sizing
[17:15] <slangasek> so this will need a concerted effort over the course of the cycle to get us back down
[17:15] <ttx> slangasek: note that we'll have to start playing games with the Server CD as well, if we want Eucalyptus java dependencies to fit in.
[17:15] <ttx> that's the purpose of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-eucalyptus-fit-on-cd
[17:15] <slangasek> I know there are some pending rosetta improvements that may help here, but as usual if anyone has any ideas for targets, please shout
[17:15] <slangasek> ttx: how much space do you need to find?
[17:16] <ttx> slangasek: if I manage to keep the full JDK and JRE out of the CD we are good.
[17:16] <slangasek> ok :)
[17:16] <ttx> slangasek: if not then we are like +40Mb above
[17:16]  * slangasek nods
[17:17] <pitti> slangasek: there's still some hope that we can get the soyuz support for stripping gnome help files and putting them into langpacks
[17:17] <slangasek> pitti: right, that's actually what I meant by "rosetta" above
[17:17] <pitti> aah
[17:17] <pitti> and cjwatson has some great ideas how to refactor the language-support-* stuff
[17:18] <slangasek> apparently I was thinking of the wrong component :)
[17:18] <pitti> if we could get gimp-help-* off the CD, that woudl give us 20 MB
[17:18] <slangasek> is that actually something we want to do?
[17:18] <pitti> gimp is next on the "first against the wall" list
[17:18] <slangasek> ah
[17:18] <pitti> but with current l-support we'd still have the English help files by default
[17:19] <pitti> so it'd only give us 6 MB
[17:19]  * heno always uses web-based help for gimp
[17:19] <pitti> with the task-based language-support structure we'd get 26
[17:19] <pitti> heno: that's another option we took into consideration
[17:19] <pitti> see this week's desktop team meeting summary
[17:19] <pitti> slangasek: so in summary, we still have some options up our sleeve
[17:19] <pitti> I don't want to release karmic without any langpacks at all
[17:20] <slangasek> indeed
[17:20] <slangasek> so we'll keep hammering at it
[17:20] <slangasek> pitti: btw, are translations open for karmic yet?
[17:20] <pitti> no, unfortuantely not
[17:20] <slangasek> have you heard an ETA?
[17:20] <pitti> rosetta is currently in sort of hibernation
[17:20] <pitti> for sorting out the shared messaging stuff
[17:20] <pitti> both jaunty and karmic are on ice right now
[17:21] <slangasek> I remember "June"; I'd have to check my notes to see if we were given anything more exact
[17:21] <pitti> slangasek: I just know "june"
[17:21] <pitti> it was supposed to work already, but it broke the firefox translations
[17:21] <ttx> slangasek: got to go now
[17:21] <pitti> so I'm not sure there's a precise ETA right now
[17:21] <slangasek> ttx: ok, thanks
[17:21] <pitti> slangasek: I'll ask danilo
[17:22] <slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to follow up with danilo regarding ETA of translation opening for karmic
[17:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up with danilo regarding ETA of translation opening for karmic
[17:22] <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
[17:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[17:22] <slangasek> anything else we need to get out?  floor's open
[17:22] <pitti> beer for slangasek for a successful alpha-2!
[17:23] <slangasek> heh :)
[17:23] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[17:23] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:23.
[17:23] <slangasek> thanks, all :)
[17:24] <apw> slangasek, thanks :)
[17:25] <pitti> thanks all
[17:43] <lool> slangasek: heya; just a quick note that imx51 is expected broken until we merge updated patches; that's currently targetted at A3 according to Brad; probably th eonly flavor we'll look into for armel will be versatile's netboot images for now, all the others should be dropped as the toolchain doesn't allow them anymore
[17:43] <slangasek> lool: ok
[17:43] <lool> slangasek: We will also add flavors in the next alphas, one I think
[17:44] <slangasek> lool: does the new flavor have a name yet, and will you relay this to stgraber so we get it on the iso tracker in advance?
[17:44] <lool> It's not clear when the kernel drops will appear, so I can't tell which alpha
[17:44] <lool> slangasek: I should relay to stgraber; the name is still undecided yet


 ;D
[23:52] <aprilg> i hear crickets..
[23:52] <aprilg> :D
[23:56] <Omega> :<


[02:39] <ishan> hi
[02:39] <ishan> anybody here
[08:28] <al__> Good morning, peoples!
[08:37] <alkisg> Good morning al__
[08:38] <al__> Whats going on, my man?
[08:38] <alkisg> al__: this channel is for ubuntu support questions, not for general chat
[08:39] <alkisg> If you want offtopic chat, join #ubuntu-offtopic
[08:55] <al__> Is anyone familiar with nVidia driver installation, and dual GPU/dual monitor setup on MATE 16?
[11:52] <logical> Hi, today when I turned on my pc in the pictures folder all images have some xmp file next to it, here is a screenshot http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1472644269.png
[11:59] <rahtgaz> seems like something a picture manager would do.  Just keep an eye for a similar incident on the future and try to remember what you used that may have generated those files.
[12:04] <rahtgaz> it's got something to do with photo managers or images in general
[12:18] <mate|84147> anyone about?
[12:23] <mate|84147> Ubuntu Mate 16.04  Running 1.12.1, Trying to make mouse cursor larger. Traditional gnome edits in org.gnome.desktop.interface do not seem to work
[12:39]  * SuperEngineer resists temptation to suggest using binoculars ;-)
[12:44] <SuperEngineer> ...7 instead recommends looking in accesibilty options,; perhaps there may be something there?
[13:09] <mate|84147> SE: location?
[13:11] <mate|84147> Assistive Technologies, covers SensitivitesAcceleration and such.  no size
[13:13] <Tintomatic> Is anyoneelse unable to set the desktop background to a solid color?
[13:15] <mate|84147> Tint... same boat as you.
[13:16] <Tintomatic> I can put any picture up, but not a color or gradient. I see this o both Mate 1.12 and 1.14.
[13:17] <Tintomatic> is it a known problem?
[13:17] <SuperEngineer> I don't know if it's im/possible.  I do know that that taking a piccy of a solid colour & setting that piccy as your background seems plausible.
[13:18] <Tintomatic> SuperE: yeah, I might go that route.
[13:19] <SuperEngineer> simple soloutions to the great mysteries... a speciality ;)
[13:39] <server_> hello
[13:39] <server_> testing 123
[13:40]  * SuperEngineer wishes he had a 123 to test
[13:43] <server_> sombody there
[13:43] <server_> ??
[13:44] <SuperEngineer> server_: "somebody" does not appear in the user list for this channel so I guess he/she is currently offline
[14:51] <zjx> 1
[14:54] <zjx> 1
[16:04] <RFleming> Greetings and other salutations!
[16:06] <oswriter> Same to you, RFleming
[16:06] <RFleming> How goes it?
[16:06]  * RFleming hopes he doesn't get ticketed by the 'off-topic' police.
[16:10] <ouroumov> It's loosely enforced here.
[16:10] <ouroumov> Especially when there's no active help requests
[16:12] <oswriter> if we want to stay on-topic i have been testing the 16.10 beta.. so far the computer hasn't exploded, so that's a good sign.
[16:12] <ouroumov> That's true. Good for you then.   The move to 1.14 and better gtk3 support?
[16:14] <oswriter> i noticed it does look a little sharper, i assume that's the gtk3
[16:14] <ouroumov> RFleming, no, actually it's not GTK3 support, it's GTK3 transition, full on.
[16:15] <Akuli> i wonder whats going to happen to all the awesome gtk 2 applications i ise
[16:15] <Akuli> use
[16:15] <RFleming> oswriter, the only thing I care about (MATE wise) are separate panel icon support, so I can have monochrome icons in my panel :)
[16:15] <oswriter> RFleming, I hear ya, I like a good monochrome icon set myself
[16:16] <RFleming> I like pretty colour icons in caja, but I'd like all notification icons to look the same :)
[16:16] <RFleming> but I guess that's gnome2 style :)
[16:19] <RFleming> is mir rolling out in 16.10?
[16:19] <RFleming> or has it been pushed back again?
[16:20] <oswriter> i hadn't heard anything about mir in 16.10
[16:21] <oswriter> i know fedora is shipping wayland by default in its next release
[16:23] <RFleming> Has anyone else noticed that when Canonical goes away from what everyone else does... they end up going back to what everyone else does?
[16:23] <RFleming> upstart comes to mind
[16:24] <RFleming> I understand they want a unified ds for cross-platform compatibility... but could that not have been achieved with wayland?
[16:25]  * RFleming shrugs
[16:25] <RFleming> Sorry... should not talk politics in chat
[16:25] <RFleming> :)
[16:27] <ouroumov> It's on-topic, and there's no "don't say bad stuff against canonical" rule.
[16:27] <RFleming> ouroumov: true, but it's one of those polarizing topics.
[16:29] <RFleming> So for giggles yesterday, I tried to upgrade an old production server... running Intrepid :)
[16:29] <RFleming> I wanted to see how far I could get with it still functioning.
[16:30] <oswriter> How did it go?
[16:30] <RFleming> I went Intrepid->Jaunty->Karmic->Lucid ... then the wheels fell off
[16:30] <RFleming> I could not get do-release-upgrade to go from lucid to precise
[16:30] <ouroumov> haha
[16:30] <oswriter> heh
[16:31] <RFleming> I've never had apt prompt me before to answer 'Yes, do as I say!'
[16:32] <RFleming> it was fun though
[16:33] <RFleming> I think what made it go as far as it did, was the fact it's an old Ubuntu Server install, with minimal modifications done to it.  It was running CVS with the xinetd superserver
[16:56] <Akuli> RFleming, getting apt to ask you do that is easy
[16:56] <Akuli> just remove some package that your system absolutely needs to run, like dpkg or apt itself
[16:56] <Akuli> (no, don't do that)
[16:57] <RFleming> lol
[16:57] <Akuli> i do prefer aptitude though
[16:57] <Akuli> its just awesome in many ways
[16:58] <RFleming> Yeah...
[16:58] <Akuli> perfect translations to finnish, curses interface, built-in minesweeper...
[16:58] <RFleming> gcc needs minesweeper :)
[16:58] <Akuli> it doesn't moo, but it does have an easter egg :)
[16:59] <Akuli> i mean aptitude
[17:00] <RFleming> I would have beat it when I was compiling linux under Gentoo on a dual core AMD Athlon 64 X2 :)
[17:01]  * RFleming is feeding cats as an easter egg on my Android 7 phone :)
[17:02] <RFleming> an interesting easter egg in Nougat
[17:04] <RFleming> one of these days I should just alias apt to aptitude
[17:05] <RFleming> Oh god... I need eye-bleach!
[17:05] <RFleming> http://thelobbytx.tripod.com/index.html
[17:05] <RFleming> I can't believe we made web pages look like that
[17:06] <RFleming> the horror!
[17:17] <blinko> Hi, I want to install ubuntu mate on an old laptop that comes with two hard drives. I would like to configure the system to use lvm 2 volume groups. I can't do it via the gui is there a way to install everything manually from the terminal?
[17:22] <Akuli> you can do anything from the terminal you can do from the gui
[17:23] <Akuli> you could use this with ubuntu https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apds03.html.en
[17:23] <Akuli> but its going to be difficult
[17:23] <Akuli> so i'd just recommend getting an ubuntu mini.iso and using that
[17:23] <Akuli> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD
[17:24] <blinko> ok, thanks.
[17:24] <blinko> I'll give it a shot
[17:24] <Akuli> after installing with your mini.iso you want to change your /etc/apt/sources.list to ubuntu mate stuff
[17:24] <Akuli> and run a sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[17:24] <Akuli> then you should be able to install ubuntu-mate-desktop and it should work
[17:25] <blinko> Akuli: Thanks :)
[17:26] <Akuli> if you have any trouble with that ask me :)
[17:29] <Akuli> i would actually recommend you do that with 14.04 if the computer is old
[17:29] <Akuli> 14.04 will be supported until 2019
[17:30] <blinko> It is not that old, my cousin got a new computer and he says that windows is slow so I am trying to get him to try linux :).
[17:31] <Akuli> one problem you might run into is that the old computer probably doesn't boot from a usb stick
[17:31] <Akuli> but thats easy to work around
[17:31] <blinko> It does I already tried it
[17:31] <Akuli> oh :) there you go
[17:31] <Akuli> its not that old then
[18:20] <RFleming> Curious question.  Why would anyone still use LVM when filesystems like btrfs and zfs are available?
[18:21] <RFleming> wasn't LVM kinda a stop-gap type measure to offer features missing in the EXT series of filesystems?
[18:21] <RFleming> ... don't get me wrong, I'm still using EXT4 without LVM
[18:26] <alkisg> btrfs has a lot of issues, it's not really ready for wide use
[18:27] <Akuli> i don't really care about what filesystem i run :D
[18:27] <Akuli> its ext4 without lvm
[18:27] <alkisg> Ah, you haven't yet lost 10 years of valueable data, that's why :D
[18:28] <Akuli> i don't really have anything valuable
[18:29] <Akuli> all i care about is my programming projects and they're all in github and cloned on many computers
[18:30] <RFleming> alkisg: if you've lost 10 years of valuable data, you haven't been doing backups
[18:31] <RFleming> and if you've only had one backup source... well :)
[18:34] <allanViking> I've been trying to google this to no avail, but is it possible to switch my stock ubuntu 16.04 LTS running mate-desktop into Ubuntu Mate 16.10 beta? I have everything mounted via chroot in livecd atm, because I totally destroyed everything whilst trying to upgrade from 14.04->16.04. I dont want to do a fresh install, as my mate is very heavily con
[18:34] <allanViking> figured and I have hundreds of apps installed
[18:36] <allanViking> right now it doesnt even boot past initramfs, so im hoping to nail 2 flies with 1 stone so to speak: by upgrading to sth I've wanted for a while and during the process hopefully fixing my system
[18:36] <alkisg> RFleming: yes, when that happened I couldn't afford a second hard disk :)
[18:36] <RFleming> allanViking: the only thing I can think of is do-release-upgrade -d
[18:37] <RFleming> but has 16.10 gone beta?  Last I knew it was still Alpha 2
[18:37] <allanViking> sorry, I meant alpha
[18:37] <RFleming> I don't believe do-release-upgrade -d upgrades to alpha releases
[18:37] <allanViking> it seems stable enough for me, I've used alphas in the past
[18:37] <allanViking> it doesnt:
[18:37] <allanViking> # do-release-upgrade -d
[18:37] <allanViking> Checking for a new Ubuntu release
[18:37] <allanViking> No new release found
[18:37] <RFleming> allanViking: you can get the alpha iso and boot off of it and do an upgrade
[18:38] <RFleming> I think the alpha installer will allow that
[18:38] <allanViking> RFleming: will it keep all my current apps and settings for mate?
[18:38] <RFleming> allanViking: it should
[18:38] <RFleming> no promises though.  It is alpha :)
[18:38] <allanViking> haha :D
[18:38] <RFleming> allanViking: you have a good backup?
[18:39] <allanViking> maybe its better to upgrade my stock 16.04 into Ubuntu Mate 16.04 with the iso on then upgrade that into alpha?
[18:39] <RFleming> Uhh... maybe
[18:39] <RFleming> I hate playing with different WMs though... it always screws something up
[18:40] <allanViking> I only need mate anyways
[18:40] <allanViking> I've been using it since 1.6
[18:40] <RFleming> you poor thing you :)
[18:40] <allanViking> :D
[18:40] <allanViking> but installing ubuntu-mate-desktop into a stock ubuntu will not make it into 100% the same as Ubuntu Mate ?
[18:40] <RFleming> allanViking: no, it won't
[18:40] <allanViking> I want everything to be GTK3, because I have HiDPI screens
[18:41] <RFleming> allanViking: oooh... you're going to have a hard time with that then :)
[18:41] <allanViking> I already resolved it it with xrandr scripts - I have tons of monitors with tens of combinations
[18:41] <allanViking> no way any display app can manage that
[18:41] <allanViking> hopefully it will stay working
[18:42] <RFleming> you may need a tiling wm :)
[18:42] <allanViking> I've resolved that aswell, with quicktile
[18:42] <allanViking> the HiDPI screen is just 15.4" though
[18:42] <allanViking> but I tile everything on my 3 screens
[18:42] <RFleming> what sense is that?
[18:42] <RFleming> why would anyone make a hidpi screen that small?
[18:43] <allanViking> business class laptop
[18:43] <RFleming> it's like making a 24" TV 4K
[18:43] <allanViking> i think 24" should be atleast 4K :D
[18:43] <RFleming> it must be a Dell
[18:43] <allanViking> I dont understand why people dont look at pixel densitu
[18:43] <allanViking> nope, Thinkpad all the way
[18:44] <allanViking> IPS 3K panel
[18:44] <allanViking> all other laptop panels look like **** compared to this
[18:44] <allanViking> but my external monitors are old LCD's ~23", not hiDpi - configuring that was tricky at first
[18:46] <RFleming> allanViking: going back to your question... I'd make a thorough backup of your system, and try to upgrade using the Mate 16.04 iso
[18:46] <allanViking> RFleming: I am doing it as we speak
[18:46] <allanViking> hopefully I dont loose my mate-panel settings
[18:46] <RFleming> if it doesn't work out, you can just reinstall Ubuntu 16.04 and restore overtop
[18:47] <allanViking> I'l try the 16.10 alpha2 upgrade route first
[18:47] <allanViking> its not like its gonna break anything further on a broken system :D
[18:47] <RFleming> this is true
[18:47] <RFleming> OK... back to fixing vulnerabilities
[18:47] <allanViking> backing up etc should be enough to keep my settings? I have my files on other disks and partitions
[18:48] <RFleming> today it's mitigating a kernel bug.
[18:48] <allanViking> thank you :)
[18:49] <allanViking> I am hoping to one day contribute code to Mate aswell
[18:49] <RFleming> allanViking: it depends on how you're backing up.  I have a shell script that makes a tar.gzip archive of everything on my system with the exception of /dev /proc and /sys... and a couple of other locatinos
[18:50] <RFleming> if my system ever blows up, I install fresh, and extract over top the newly installed system and reboot.
[18:50] <allanViking> I have home var and opt elsewhere and in the past I have installed a new system and then moved home and opt back, merging etc
[18:51] <RFleming> allanViking: why move them?  Use bind in fstab and bind their locations to known ones
[18:51] <RFleming> (assuming they're on different disks)
[18:51] <makka> Hello! bit of a noob question i guess, but whats the best wau
[18:51] <allanViking> I do use bind actually, I was just simplifying :p
[18:51] <RFleming> Welcome makka!
[18:52] <makka> way of SSH into the PI using mate?
[18:52] <makka> Hello o/
[18:52] <RFleming> makka: from Windows, or linux?
[18:52] <makka> linux
[18:52] <makka> ubuntu to be exact
[18:52] <Akuli> should be pretty easy
[18:52] <RFleming> ssh pi@<ipaddress>
[18:52] <Akuli> of course, you want to install openssh-server on the pi first
[18:52] <makka> i read you needed to install a ssh client?
[18:53] <Akuli> your ubuntu will tell you if you haven't installed it
[18:53] <RFleming> makka: on the Pi, you need an SSH server.  openssh-server to be exact
[18:53] <Akuli> you also need to add your pi to /etc/hosts on the ubuntu
[18:53] <makka> right, ill crack open a term and give it a shot
[18:53] <Akuli> sounds like a lot of work, but it really is not
[18:54] <RFleming> Any sys admins in here... https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2016-5696.  You'll want to patch that up
[18:54] <Akuli> makka, actually you don't need to have the pi in /etc/hosts if you type out its ip
[18:54] <Akuli> you can find that out by running ifconfig on the pi
[18:55] <makka> openssh-client is already the newest version (1:7.2p2-4).
[18:55] <makka> comes preinstalled i see
[18:56] <makka> derp, thats the client ^^
[18:57] <makka> guess they both do actually
[19:00] <makka> ah awesome, that was much simpler that it looked on reading, Thanks guys!
[19:01] <makka> can i use the pi's external ip?
[19:01] <Akuli> makka, i'd use the one the network is using
[19:01] <Akuli> run /sbin/ifconfig on the pi to find out
[19:01] <makka> if for instance i wanted to use it from work?
[19:02] <Akuli> i guess you can, i've never succeeded with that though
[19:02] <Akuli> you also need to allow ssh through your firewall if you use one
[19:02] <Akuli> e.g. sudo ufw allow ssh
[19:03] <makka> can only see an internal here, suspose i can use a website to find my ip, but that
[19:03] <makka> that's dynamic right?
[19:04] <makka> heh, im sure ill figure it out, afterall i was doing this stuff 10 years ago as a kid with RS servers and noip.org DNS ^^
[19:04] <makka> thanks again for the help guys!
[19:12] <blinko> Hello, is there another way to install ubuntu mate with custom partitioning (raid / lvm) other than doing https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/installation-guide/amd64/apds04.html ? I am afraid the end result will differ too much from the GUI stuff.
[19:13] <blinko> Is there a script or code I can look into? Thanks
[19:44] <RFleming> blinko: I think the only way you'll be able to do this custom type of install, is to partition manually from the live cd, and then when you go to install chose the 'something else' option and just use the setup you've already created
[19:45] <RFleming> So basically, do what you need to from the live cd, then run the installer
[20:33] <mrbhardw> hi
[20:33] <mrbhardw> need help from experts
[20:35] <blinko> RFleming: Thanks
[20:35] <RFleming> blinko: np :)
[20:35] <mrbhardw> can any one plz reply ?
[20:36] <RFleming> mrbhardw: we need a problem first
[20:36] <mrbhardw> i have issue with my screen..
[20:36] <RFleming> ask your question, then wait for your answer
[20:36] <mrbhardw> it flaps when i run my laptop with external monitor
[20:36] <mrbhardw> sure..
[20:37] <mrbhardw> thought no one recieving my chat ..new this Linux world
[20:38] <RFleming> uhh, it flaps?
[20:38] <yanflap> flaps?
[20:38] <mrbhardw> i mean flicker ...
[20:39] <mrbhardw> same if i play any movie on vlc
[20:40] <mrbhardw> does any one encounter this issue before ?
[20:42] <fabio_> ciao
[20:43] <mrbhardw> RFleming ??
 ??
[20:43] <RFleming> mrbhardw: I am not the expert you need
[20:43] <RFleming> perhaps there are experts on video in #ubuntu
[20:43] <blinko> is this it ? https://aboutsimon.com/blog/2016/07/20/Ubuntu-16.04-external-monitor-flickering-and-turning-off-on-intel-i915.html
[20:45] <mrbhardw> lmc
[20:46] <mrbhardw> thanks..blinko
[20:46] <mrbhardw> i will try this..
[20:47] <blinko> just to be safe ask in #ubuntu as RFleming suggested
[21:04] <mrbhardw> mrbhardw@MRBHARDW-IN:~$ sudo dpkg -i linux-headers-4.4.14-040414_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_all.deblinux-headers-4.4.14-040414-generic_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_amd64.deblinux-image-4.4.14-040414-generic_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_amd64.deb
[21:04] <mrbhardw> dpkg: error processing archive linux-headers-4.4.14-040414_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_all.deblinux-headers-4.4.14-040414-generic_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_amd64.deblinux-image-4.4.14-040414-generic_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_amd64.deb (--install):
[21:04] <mrbhardw>  cannot access archive: No such file or directory
[21:04] <mrbhardw> Errors were encountered while processing:
[21:04] <mrbhardw>  linux-headers-4.4.14-040414_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_all.deblinux-headers-4.4.14-040414-generic_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_amd64.deblinux-image-4.4.14-040414-generic_4.4.14-040414.201606241434_amd64.deb
[21:04] <mrbhardw> mrbhardw@MRBHARDW-IN:~$
[21:55] <tiox> I've already done it, but is there any reason why someone would need to add the PPA for UM's MATE 1.14 GTK3 aside from GTK3?
[21:59] <ouroumov> Still haven't found one
[22:00] <tiox> lol
[22:01] <tiox> Well, that's sort of what I wanted to know; Maybe Martin knows since he continues to build for it.
[22:01] <ouroumov> I think there's better hi-dpi support
[22:01] <tiox> He has to be building the GTK3 MATE packages for some reason, right?
[22:01] <ouroumov> But it's of limited interest for me because max res 1920x1080
[22:01] <tiox> That could probably be it.
[22:02] <tiox> I was hoping it would allow for truly transparent panels like on XFCE but nope.
[22:02] <ouroumov> What does "Truly Transparent" means? :o
[22:03] <tiox> Either with or without the PPA, the alpha on panels is faked unless you force the entire panel to have alpha, which would affect all parts of the panel rather than the background colour.
[22:04] <tiox> If you make any panel use alpha with background colour, you don't see the content underneath the panel, but it still uses a portion of your desktop background.
[22:04] <tiox> Now, on DockX, Plank, and xfce4-panel, you can use alpha and see content underneath it.
[22:05] <ouroumov> By faked you mean what's behind is redraw?
[22:05] <tiox> That's what I consider "True transparency" or "True alpha"; being able to see the content underneath.  Backport compiz, enable screensaver, make the cube rotate and take a screencap.
[22:08] <tiox> (And it probably occurs in COmpton too but the cube's the easiest way I could show what I am on about.)
[22:09] <tiox> Or it could be a Compiz 0.8-specific problem, like what I encountered with the dock panel robint99 maintains.
[22:09] <tiox> s/dock/applet
[22:09] <tiox> Grgh.
[22:10] <tiox> Dock applet, rather, not dock panel lol
[22:13] <ouroumov> No actually you're right.
[22:14] <ouroumov> Icons behind panels get cut.
[22:14] <ouroumov> In Compton
[22:14] <ouroumov> It's only visible with an autohiding panel
[22:14] <tiox> Wait what?
[22:14] <ouroumov> Because when it's not autohide, you can't put the icon half through the panel
[22:15] <tiox> So true alpha occurs ONLY with autohide?
[22:15] <tiox> That seems like bullocks to me.
[22:15] <ouroumov> What? No
[22:15] <ouroumov> I'm saying you're right, it looks fake since the icon gets but by the background
[22:17] <ouroumov> See https://i.imgur.com/uWlCR4S.png
[23:00] <oswriter> So I'm using 16.10 Beta and trying to setup Keyboard Shortcuts. Everything works fine except when I try to set a shortcut for Caja. It simply doesn't work. I noticed this same issue in 16.04 but I worked around it by typing the full command path instead of just the command. But in 16.10 it doesn't work either way.


[08:31] <LocutusOfBorg> hello, looks like bos2 has a lot to clean today...
[08:33] <tomwardill> LocutusOfBorg: we're looking at it, it's failed to respond to a simple reset
[08:34] <LocutusOfBorg> thanks!
[09:28] <LocutusOfBorg> restarting bos02 worked, but lots of builds are failing with no logs now...
[09:29] <LocutusOfBorg> https://launchpad.net/~build.snapcraft.io/+snap/f9a48cb504c5a9824b4022c6cfe0a9fe/+build/1147702
[09:29] <LocutusOfBorg> https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-ci/+archive/ubuntu/unstable-ci-proposed/+build/20143129
[09:29] <LocutusOfBorg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ovn/20.06.2-0ubuntu1/+build/20143565
[09:29] <LocutusOfBorg> and so on
[09:37] <tomwardill> it's looking like a cloud/network issue, no fix we can try seems to stick
[17:04] <dkg> is there some reason that the ssh daemon on git.launchpad.net offers only an "ssh-rsa" host key?  that algorithm is dependent on SHA1, iiuc.  I've searched for info about it, but couldn't find anything.  I opened https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/693449 to see if i could get more info that way
[17:05] <dkg> if there's some better way for me to push on it, please let me know!
[17:40] <cjwatson> dkg: Linked to a somewhat related bug, thanks
[17:41] <cjwatson> dkg: As is often the case with issues with our SSH endpoints, it needs some work in Twisted.  We've made quite a few contributions there over the last couple of years, and it looks as though we'll need to make more
[17:42] <dkg> cjwatson: thanks for the followup
[17:43] <cjwatson> Or at least I think it does, hmm
[17:44] <cjwatson> This stuff is a bit, err, twisted
[17:44] <dkg> no kidding -- it's a lot to keep track of, and i didn't even realize that i was asking for a software change
[17:46] <cjwatson> Ah yes, it does need Twisted work
[17:46] <cjwatson>         if keyType == "RSA":
[17:46] <cjwatson>             sig = self._keyObject.sign(data, padding.PKCS1v15(), hashes.SHA1())
[17:46] <cjwatson>             ret = common.NS(sig)
[17:46] <cjwatson> (twisted.conch.ssh.keys.Key.sign)
[17:47] <dkg> if you open a bug report about this with twisted, i'd be curious to see it
[17:48] <cjwatson> Given the maintenance of Twisted's SSH code, I'm more likely to open a PR :)
[17:48] <dkg> that too ☺
[17:48] <cjwatson> However there is the additional complexity that Twisted upstream is now Python 3-only
[17:48] <cjwatson> So for the time being even if I do get stuff in there we'd have to backport it
[19:52] <teward> cjwatson: is the SSH endpoint on git.l.n forcing SHA1 or have you adjusted it to accept non-SHA1 hashes?  I ask this because hashes > SHA1 are available with ssh-rsa keys (yes I looked that up) but it needs server-side enforcement last I checked.
[19:52] <teward> ... nevermind I see the fact that it's Twisted related >.<
[19:52] <teward> twisted is annoying :P
[20:03] <cjwatson> teward: twisted just hasn't implemented the other host key algorithms from RFC8332.  Likely no big deal to do