[09:04] <LocutusOfBorg> ubuntu-archive: golang-gopkg-libgit2-git2go.v28 is now superseeded by source golang-gopkg-libgit2-git2go.v30
[09:04] <LocutusOfBorg> can anybody please kick it out?
[09:27] <doko> RAOF: mir ftbfs on arm64 and s390x
[09:32] <RAOF> doko: I saw the s390x one and will check out the arm64 one tomorrow.
[09:43] <doko> RAOF: ta, not yet accepting, would block the transition
[09:52] <rbalint> Laney, http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running#pkg-linux-hwe-5.4 is still running, i think it is in a loop, could you please check it?
[09:55] <RAOF> Oh, have I trodden on a transition? Sorry.
[09:56] <Laney> rbalint: it is, I was just running it manually to check what's up there
[10:01] <rbalint> Laney, thanks!
[10:26] <doko> why did seb remove evolution-data-server, without any notice?
[10:26] <doko> no mention on the release channel
[10:26] <doko> "the source is in sync with Debian and the owning team wants to keep it this way"
[10:27] <doko> ... forcing another team to keep a delta in another package ...
[10:33] <Laney> doko: boost-defaults dropped binaries that weren't unused, that delta in e-d-s isn't necessary, xnox said they would fix that and then we don't need any delta, discussion from #ubuntu-devel yesterday
[10:34] <doko> Laney: well, yes, e-d-s was the only user ...
[10:36] <doko> and no, no mention of removal, and no, you can't vendorize symbols changes
[10:38] <tjaalton> is proposed cleanup an AA thing?
[10:39] <doko> yes, has to be done manually
[10:39] <tjaalton> ok
[10:54] <doko> xnox: libphonenumber has the last i386 boost runtime dependency
[11:24] <guiverc> :)  thanks jibel & RikMills
[13:06] <egeyar> hello! I had an issue with a package, rusty-tags. We solved the issue with the source maintainer and he released rusty-tags 3.9.0. I do not know Ubuntu's update process, but it would make my life easier if that package was also updated on the next Ubuntu 20.04 LTS update. thanks!
[13:08] <rbalint> rbasak, do you do process SRUs today?
[13:52] <rbalint> sil2100, could you please process glibc srus today?
[13:54] <rbalint> Laney, i've filed a hint for LP: #1908411 until it is resolved https://code.launchpad.net/~rbalint/britney/+git/hints-ubuntu/+merge/395428
[14:12] <sil2100> Sure
[14:25] <rbalint> sil2100, thanks, the next one are in https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/4258/+packages, i'm testing the fixes from the ppa
[14:26] <rbalint> sil2100, the cross-toolchain-base build failures are ok and correct, they are waiting for the glibc builds
[14:30] <tjaalton> sil2100: hey, we didn't discuss if a renamed hwe xorg stack should be provided or not. I suggested that we'd keep updating the stock one until there's a need for a separate stack
[14:31] <sil2100> tjaalton: hey! I think that makes sense - seeing that there is no disruptive or big changes, sticking with the provided one seems fine
[14:31] <tjaalton> upstream 1.20.x will stay as an abi-stable branch it seems
[14:31] <tjaalton> right
[14:32] <sil2100> I liked your idea and already pushed it to all the release peeps
[14:32] <tjaalton> ah good :)
[14:32] <sil2100> So yeah, +1 on no hwe X packages this time :)
[14:32] <tjaalton> excellent
[14:32] <sil2100> rbalint: let me take a look at that once I'm back from the meeting
[14:32] <tjaalton> so I'll just backport xorg-server then
[14:32] <sil2100> rbalint: will you be syncing it to the queue?
[14:32] <sil2100> tjaalton: awesome
[15:05] <rbalint> sil2100, no, will upload them properly
[16:25] <sil2100> rbalint: give me a sign once you do, I'll handle them as soon as possible
[16:39] <rbalint> sil2100, i'm still waiting for the build for focal to verify LP: #1906250, this may take a few hours
[16:39] <rbalint> sil2100, otherwise you consider the bugs/sources ok?
[16:40] <rbalint> sil2100 i can upload the sources and give a call when the verification is done, would that be ok?
[16:50] <sil2100> rbalint: yeah, we can do it like that - upload the sources, I'll take a look at the SRU from the queue and wait with accepting it for your +1
[17:32] <rbalint> sil2100, i realized i mislabeled a patch and now i'm now double-checking those sru parts
[17:33] <rbalint> sil2100, i've just uploaded glibc to hirsute, so the srus-s can technically follow the fix in devel
[18:24] <rbalint> sil2100, i've uploaded the glibc and cross-toolchain-base packages for focal and groovy, please take a look
[18:24] <rbalint> sil2100, the test still has not finished
[18:42] <sil2100> rbalint: looking in a moment!
[18:44] <RikMills> sil2100: signon for focal should be releasable now. the ppc64el FTBFS was just a LP blip
[18:48] <doko> sil2100: two questions: could you consider skipping the glibc/armhf test triggered by binutils? timeoud out twice, and won't have a chance to succeed with the loaded queues
[18:49] <doko> and: please ignore all autopkg tests triggered by gnat. gnat transitions are all-in-one, and the tests will succeed with the default in the release pocket. can do gnat 10ubuntu2 upload to re-trigger these after the package migrated
[18:49] <rbalint> sil2100, the cross-toolchain-base sru may not be needed for Groovy
[19:03] <rbalint> sil2100, test passed, please accept both glibcs and cross-toolchain-base for focal at least
[19:04] <rbalint> sil2100, oh, wait, groovy's riscv64 build failed, let me check it
[19:05] <rbalint> sil2100, hm, no log
[19:06] <rbalint> sil2100, its ok ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[19:51] <sil2100> doko: I'll look at that after the glibc reviews
[20:22] <RikMills> vorlon: would you consider skiptest'ing kio and kconfig. the LO test fail on armhf is obviously not their fault, and the delay in migrating the remaining parts of the KDE frameworks 5.77.0 stack is causing some system tray and desktop search breakage for testsers
[20:26] <RikMills> a retry is queued, but the armhf adt queued is moving at a pace slower than a slow thing which the breaks on, stuck in treacle, and nearly frozen solid
[20:39] <rbalint> plusone i'm triggering s390x tests with hello/ in hirsute to help setting a baseline
[20:44] <kanashiro> bdmurray, sil2100 idk exactly who could help me with that but I'd like to release the following SRUs asap (preferably before EOW): LP #1870514 and LP #1906364
[20:45] <kanashiro> those are related to the docker.io bug some users faced in production when updating containerd
[20:45] <kanashiro> if you have any question you can ping sergiodj and I
[20:50] <bdmurray> kanashiro: today's EOY for me, and sil_2100 is already done and so is steve. With that I'm hesitant to release any SRUs given there aren't many people to follow up with any regressions.
[20:53] <kanashiro> bdmurray, right, then we do not have other option, let's do it next year
[20:55] <bdmurray> kanashiro: Well you might check with Andy, Chris and Timo. I don't know when they finish.
[20:56] <kanashiro> bdmurray, ok, thanks
[21:13] <doko> rbalint: is there a reason that libc6-prof isn't built for s390x in groovy?
[21:16] <doko> same in hirsute
[21:19] <rbalint> doko, yes, LP: #1898049
[21:22] <rbalint> doko, since libc6-prof is quite new i think there is not a lot of demand for it on s390x yet, also not on i386


[18:01] <nimtz> is there an easy to just not load lxde at startup
[18:01] <nimtz> (not delete any package)
[18:02] <ianorlin> and what just openbox?
[18:02] <ianorlin> which version as it changed in 13.10
[18:03] <ianorlin> in 13.04 and earlier near where you enter your password there is an area that says log into with a drop down menu and you can select openbox to not load lxde things
[18:03] <nimtz> just command line
[18:04] <nimtz> pre 13
[18:04] <ianorlin> oh hit control alt f1 and enter password
[18:04] <ianorlin> and log in
[18:04] <nimtz> i have autologin turned on
[18:04] <nimtz> i dont even want to load the login manager
[18:05] <nimtz> (gdm, or whatever it is)
[18:05] <ianorlin> you can still do that after logging in though
[18:05] <nimtz> yeah, but then X will be running
[18:07] <nimtz> i basically want to disable X altogheter
[18:15] <ianorlin> hmm not sure how to do that other than maybe ubuntu server and remove packages for X
[18:16] <ianorlin> or install from mini iso and choose what packages you want.
[20:18] <koell> anyone using shotwell?
[21:10] <Slesa> anyone knowing how to compile lxde? The lxde channel seems to be too silent


 Need I say more?
[06:05] <paddatrapper> Say no more. I perfectly understand your rage...
[06:21] <andrewlsd> superfly: "despite all my rage, Home Affairs is still taking and age"  [rat in a cage]
[06:22] <superfly> andrewlsd: no, they're nopt taking an age, they're outsourcing their visa stuff to a company that has no clue on the requirements for visas, so that I get a rejection 2 years later because of said company's incompetence
[06:56] <andrewlsd> yip. ... and at your expense.
[07:14] <ra1v3n> Good morning
[07:16] <andrewlsd> hi ra1v3n
[07:17] <ra1v3n> Hello andrewlsd
[07:30] <Sicelo> superfly: you need visa to be in SA?
[07:31] <ra1v3n> Depends on your country of origin
[07:32] <Sicelo> of course .. that's why i'm asking
[07:32]  * Sicelo thought superfly was SA citizen
[07:32] <superfly> Sicelo: I am, but my wife isn't
[07:34] <Sicelo> ah .. i'm also non-South African, and  completely agree that the VFS system is just a mess :(
[07:35] <Sicelo> and the hectic fees they have, omg!
[07:42] <superfly> Sicelo: exactly. and because my wife is married to a South African, we don't have to pay Home Affairs' fees. Now we're getting slapped with VFS's fees when we would not normally pay, and we never asked for VFS in the first palce
[07:42] <superfly> *place
[08:16] <Kilos> hi superfly inetpro paddatrapper magespawn Langjan MaNI and all others
[08:16] <Kilos> what happened Langjan
[08:16] <superfly> evening Kilos
[08:17] <Kilos> you broke it
[08:18] <paddatrapper> Hey Kilos
[08:46] <Langjan> Hi Kilos het jy lekker gerus?
[08:57] <Kilos> ai!
[09:11] <Langjan> Chasing sheep Kilos?
[09:15] <Kilos> i was
[09:15] <Kilos> hehe
[09:16] <Kilos> actually moving hay / lucerne mix where they can get to it
[09:16] <Kilos> Langjan so tell what you broke man
[09:19] <Langjan> Hi Kilos vertel my eers of je lekker geslaap het en uitgerus is vir die nuwe uitdagings wat my brekasies bied?
[09:19] <Langjan> jy
[09:20] <Kilos> man ek het geslaap
[09:20] <Langjan> Uitgerus?
[09:20] <Kilos> lekker warm in die bed , wou nie opstaan nie
[09:20] <Langjan> Ek het so gesien...lmga!
[09:20] <Kilos> haha
[09:21] <Kilos> was 7 uur wakker maar was te koud om op te sit of staan
[09:21] <Langjan> ai, was net onder 7° hier, nie te sleg nie
[09:21] <Kilos> now tell me what i need to start thinking about
[09:22] <Kilos> ryp hier weer
[09:23] <Langjan> Ok, I decided to use the other HDD with Zorin installed because its IDE and I want to get it to a stgae where I can get my onconverted friend to sit down and do everything that he does on windopz
[09:23] <Langjan> stage
[09:23] <Kilos> ok
[09:24] <Langjan> Its running nicely, just had to sort the jumpers out first
[09:24] <Langjan> so have a spare 160 GB HDD
[09:25] <Langjan> I upgraded his ram from 1,5 to 2 GB in trade for the HDD
[09:25] <Kilos> ok
[09:25] <Langjan> Another Q
[09:26] <Kilos> ?
[09:26] <Langjan> I have a 5,7 GB folder named Systemback, dunno where it came from, want to delete it
[09:26] <Kilos> systemback is that tool for making an iso of your running system
[09:27] <Langjan> Its not a tool, its a folder
[09:27] <Kilos> yes man but the tool makes folders when you run it so it knows what you have going there
[09:28] <Langjan> Contents look the same as /home except my documents and pics are not there
[09:28] <Kilos> you ran system back before right?
[09:28] <ra1v3n> make it into an Iso burn to dvd ... then clear the backup
[09:28] <ra1v3n> simples
[09:28] <ra1v3n> ^^
[09:29] <Langjan> Cant remember if I did
[09:29] <Kilos> too big for dvd
[09:29] <Langjan> thks ra1v3n
[09:29] <Kilos> you cant have a systemback folder unless you ran it
[09:30] <Langjan> ok then I ran it, do I need it?
[09:30] <Kilos> well
[09:30] <Kilos> debatable
[09:30] <Langjan> well
[09:30] <Langjan> lets debate
[09:30] <Kilos> did you make a stick with the iso on
[09:30] <ra1v3n> Langjan, you can clear the system back folder from within system back
[09:31] <ra1v3n> I never include playonlinux etc. you can exclude certain folders
[09:31] <Langjan> Kilos, you mean an iso of the systemback? No
[09:32] <ra1v3n> back those up separately
[09:32] <Kilos> that was the whole idea of running it Langjan
[09:32] <Langjan> I always back up my file and pic and email folders separately
[09:32] <Kilos> if you feel you dont need it you can aptitude purge systemback
[09:32] <ra1v3n> if your system is running perfectly and you want a backup .... clear the systemback and create a new one
[09:33] <Langjan> OK that makes sense thks ra1v3n
[09:33] <Kilos> listen to ra1v3n
[09:33] <ra1v3n> what I do Is I create a new user with full priveledges (so that I get a clean homefolder)
[09:33] <ra1v3n> then run systemback from inside that user
[09:33] <ra1v3n> then once done I write to dvd
[09:34] <ra1v3n> destroy the temporary user
[09:34] <ra1v3n> clear the systemback folder
[09:34] <ra1v3n> back up all your aps with aptoncd
[09:35] <Langjan> sounds complicated but worth doing
[09:35] <Langjan> what about vbox?
[09:35] <ra1v3n> then write that to a dvd aswell (make sure you select dvd image NOT cd)
[09:36] <ra1v3n> then back up the excluded folder like your WINE and Playonlinux and all your doccies and pics
[09:36] <ra1v3n> then if the shite does hit the fan you can recover quickly
[09:36] <Langjan> will vbox also run after backup
[09:36] <ra1v3n> yes its complicated but it makes life easier after a crash
[09:36] <ra1v3n> virtualbox?
[09:36] <Langjan> dont use wine and playonlinux
[09:37] <ra1v3n> In what way?
[09:37] <Langjan> yes
[09:37] <ra1v3n> the virtualbox app itself will be backed up
[09:37] <ra1v3n> but I suggest you backup your vbox appliances seperately
[09:38] <ra1v3n> this is why I create a dummy user .... clean homefolder no fluff like masive vbox appliances
[09:38] <Langjan> By appliances do you mean the Win xp os running there?
[09:38] <ra1v3n> yes
[09:39] <Kilos> and so the truth comes out
[09:39] <ra1v3n> on the HDD the will be a folder called Win Xp etc ... it will contain the virtual HDD and associated files
[09:39] <Kilos> hidden xp
[09:39] <ra1v3n> LOL Kilos
[09:39] <Kilos> sigh
[09:40] <ra1v3n> Within the menu tab of Vbox you can select to backup this applaiance and vbox will create a single compressed bundled file similar to a tarball
[09:40] <Langjan> OK I will give it a go and see how far I can get before knocking on your door
[09:41] <ra1v3n> take that and write it to a backup dvd or place it on another HDD
[09:41] <ra1v3n> google if you get stuck .... tons of tutorials on all of these online
[09:41] <Langjan> OK many thks
[09:41] <ra1v3n> I normally do this all as soon as I have my setup installed and everything is working
[09:42] <Kilos> i made a systemback flash disk and installed from it and asll pics and everything same on desktop as on lappy
[09:42] <ra1v3n> 'm here often aswell if you need help
[09:42] <ra1v3n> yeah systemback is awesome especially if you need to clone a system in a hurry
[09:43] <Langjan> Many thanks ra1v3n, will do
[09:43] <Kilos> hidden xp
[09:43] <Kilos> now youve ruined a friendship
[09:43] <ra1v3n> I make the Dummy User so that I'm working from a clean homefolder
[09:43] <Kilos> think up an excuse quickly
[09:44] <ra1v3n> because after a few weeks of working your homefolder will never fit on a dvd
[09:44] <Kilos> hi exupboy welcome to ubuntu-za
[09:45] <Kilos> dvds are old fashioned things
[09:45] <Kilos> flash sicks come in many sizes
[09:45] <Langjan> So thats my story for the day Kilos  - nothing broke. Fortunately I'm not using kde, lmga!
[09:46] <Kilos> sticks/disks
[09:46] <Langjan> drives?
[09:46] <Kilos> haha so cheeky this bally
[09:46] <Kilos> ja man memory sticks
[09:46] <Kilos> flash disks
[09:46] <Langjan> 'cause I know I can outrun you
[09:46] <Kilos> flash drives
[09:47] <Kilos> usb memory modules
[09:47] <Langjan> flash drives, usb sticks, stiffies, whatchamacallits
[09:48] <Kilos> and you must remember the turmeric stuff Langjan the you wont find things you have no idea how or where they came from
[09:48] <Langjan> katottertjies
[09:48] <exupboy> Hi There, thanks
[09:48] <Langjan> We chat again when youre pushing 74 Kilos
[09:49] <Kilos> nono you wont be around
[09:49] <Langjan> I will, dunno about you
[09:49] <Kilos> chat now before you forget who i am
[09:49] <Langjan> lmga1
[09:49] <Kilos> hee hee
[09:49] <Langjan> !
[09:50] <Langjan> Ok im gonna log off and practice some systemrestore
[09:50] <Kilos> enjoy
[09:50] <Langjan> where do I find the dam thing?
[09:50] <Kilos> what
[09:51] <Kilos> luckily you head is glued on
[09:51] <Langjan> system restore - and my computer!
[09:51] <magespawn> in the dam things place, where else
[09:51] <Kilos> lol
[09:51] <Langjan> if its in the dam its broken, not waterproof. Hi magespawn how are you keeping?
[09:52] <magespawn> good and you Langjan ?
[09:53] <Langjan> fine thks
[09:53] <Langjan> just battling a bit with the laatslapers
[09:53] <Kilos> hahaha
[09:53] <Langjan> see the guilty conscience?
[09:53] <Kilos> hehehehe
[09:53] <Langjan> lmga
[09:54] <Langjan> glad youre honest my friend, thats why I like you so much
[09:54] <Kilos> oh only because of my honestly
[09:54] <Langjan> even if you keep nagging
[09:54] <Kilos> honesty
[09:54] <Kilos> haha
[09:55] <Kilos> those with blocked ears need nagging
[09:55] <Langjan> now youre fishing for compliments...
[09:55] <Kilos> oh
[09:55] <Langjan> how many you want?
[09:55] <Kilos> and those with bad memories
[09:55] <Kilos> i dont need compliments ty sir
[09:55] <Langjan> I have 8 Gb
[09:56] <Langjan> Arrogant young man!
[09:56] <Kilos> that will make a good backup iso
[09:56] <Langjan> on my RAM?
[09:56] <Kilos> i have systemback iso on an 8g stick as well
[09:57] <Langjan> Can see you chase too many rams and ewes around
[09:57] <Kilos> what are you talking about
[09:57] <Kilos> you have 8g ram
[09:58] <Langjan> maybe its 4, I forgot
[09:58] <Langjan> lmga
[09:58] <Kilos> hahaha
[09:58] <Langjan> jy moet mooi bly en die dag geniet
[09:59] <Kilos> i have found the best time to help peeps that need nagging is when they are in the bath
[09:59] <Kilos> make them wash their ears well so they can hear properly
[09:59] <Langjan> good idea, will tell my caregiver
[10:00] <Kilos> lol
[10:00] <Langjan> bye for now
[10:00] <Kilos> cheers Langjan have a good day sir
[10:01] <Langjan> You too thks Kilos
[10:01] <chesedo> superfly: i'm suspecting bad internet
[10:01] <chesedo> afternoon all btw...
[10:01] <Kilos> hi chesedo
[10:02] <andrewlsd> Fun reading: http://www.eweek.com/security/black-hat-do-usb-keys-left-in-parking-lots-get-picked-up.html
[10:10] <ra1v3n> Never under any circumstances insert a USB key that you don't own or haven't just removed from its packaging after purchase
[10:30] <andrewlsd> ^ yip
[10:50] <magespawn> but why, could be so much of fun
[11:17] <Kilos> whats a usb key? a thing you open car doors with?
[11:17] <ra1v3n> Im back
[11:18] <ra1v3n> usb key, stick, drive flashdrive
[11:18] <ra1v3n> same thing
[11:19] <Kilos> why would they be left lying around in parking lots
[11:19] <Kilos> i go read that link
[11:19] <ra1v3n> lol
[11:22] <Kilos> too much to read
[11:25] <ra1v3n> lol
[11:28] <andrewlsd> Kilos: TL;DR : make USB with malicious software / firmware.  "lose" them at strategic points. Wait for users to insert USB dongles into their computers. Profit from the pwnage.
[11:34] <Kilos> ah
[11:35] <Kilos> even linux pcs?
[11:35] <ra1v3n> yes
[11:35] <Kilos> oh my
[11:35] <ra1v3n> there are some rootkits that can easily infect a linux box
[11:36] <ra1v3n> and there are certain virii that are at the firmware level
[11:40] <andrewlsd> +1 ra1v3n
[11:40] <andrewlsd> nothing like physical access to bypass many layers of security
[11:41] <ra1v3n> oh yeah
[11:41] <ra1v3n> bare metal access
[11:51] <ra1v3n> later all
[11:51] <ra1v3n> ciao 4 now
[11:51] <andrewlsd> ciao
[12:32] <andrewlsd> Have a good afternoon everyone :-)
[12:34] <Kilos> hehe
[12:34] <Kilos> you too andrewlsd
[12:35] <Kilos> dunno how you did that
[12:35] <magespawn> go to go out chat later
[12:35] <Kilos> Have a good afternoon everyone
[12:35] <Kilos> go well magespawn
[13:02] <andrewlsd> enjoy the weekend everyone
[14:01] <ra1v3n> Hello again all
[14:02] <Kilos> hi ra1v3n
[14:04] <ra1v3n> Hello kilos
[15:07] <pavlushka> can anyone tell me which part is the driver code here, https://github.com/lwfinger/rtlwifi_new/pull/74/files ?
[15:07] <pavlushka> and Greetings ZA!
[15:54] <ra1v3n> I'm Back!
[16:02] <kulelu88> theblazehen: you around?
[16:54] <pavlushka> can anyone tell me which part is the driver code here, https://github.com/lwfinger/rtlwifi_new/pull/74/files ?
[16:55] <Kilos> pavlushka ask that at #ubuntu as well
[16:55] <pavlushka> Kilos: copy
[16:56] <Kilos> no one knows who is doing what here on friday evening
[16:56] <ra1v3n> pavlushka, there is no driver code there
[16:58] <pavlushka> ra1v3n: in the result of "lspci | grep Wireless"
[16:59] <ra1v3n> the code is at the beginning of the output
[17:00] <ra1v3n> then just follow the instructions
[17:01] <ra1v3n> should be in this format: 00.00.0 (Unless I'm mistaken)
[17:01] <pavlushka> ra1v3n: you mean something like "01:00.0" ?
[17:01] <ra1v3n> yep
[17:01] <pavlushka> ra1v3n: thanks :)
[17:02] <ra1v3n> give it a go
[17:02] <ra1v3n> your'e welcome ^^
[17:04] <ra1v3n> let me know how you do
[17:26] <theblazehen> kulelu88: what's up?
[18:03] <ra1v3n> Hello pavlushka did you win?
[18:09] <pavlushka> ra1v3n: its on someone else's pc, will confirm you after getting the result, :)
[18:10] <ra1v3n> kewl
[18:10] <ra1v3n> kewl
[18:17] <ra1v3n> Goodnight guys have a good one
[18:20] <magespawn> chat later all
[18:41] <Kilos> hi SEptic inetpro superfly
[18:41] <SEptic> evening ... *tips hat*
[19:07] <Symmetria> mmmmm
[19:07] <Symmetria> anyone here run their own DNS recusors?
[19:10] <SEptic> pft, silly kdewallt
[19:10] <SEptic> kdewallet
[19:10] <Kilos> lol
[19:11] <SEptic> beautifully engineered concept of software... it's finding the start button thats the problem :P
[19:12] <SEptic> i think it's just being a bit of a woman with 16.04, but sure it'll get fixed up as we go
[19:13] <SEptic> got my office colleagues to wipe windows and come over to the dark-side
[19:13] <Kilos> cool
[19:14] <superfly> SEptic: there's a cunning trick with KWallet, if you don't mind the security aspects of it too much. Just set your password to be blank, and it no longer prompts for your password.
[19:15] <SEptic> i did try that cunning plan me Lord, it did work for a couple reboots
[19:16] <SEptic> i'm having issues with it not opening wallets, not even prompting to open them
[19:16] <SEptic> if i create a new wallet and do things then its 100%
[19:17] <SEptic> but after a couple boots it just doesn't prompt to open the wallet at all
[19:17] <SEptic> if i gooi the wallet manager and click "open", then my laptop just sits and stares blankly at me
[19:18] <SEptic> i am new to the wallet-y thing though
[19:18] <superfly> I last saw KWallet ages ago. if it is in use, I am not seeing it.
[19:19] <superfly> I no longer use KMail for my e-mail, so that's probably also why.
[19:19] <SEptic> haha, yea, i tried disabling completely, but then have to enter wifi passwords everytime i connect
[19:30] <pavlushka__> hehe, theblazehen ping
[19:30] <pavlushka__> now I am a quassel dude, yo
[19:31] <theblazehen> pavlushka__:  nice :)
[19:31] <Kilos> haha
[19:31] <Symmetria> dammit, this is driving me nuts, I have two identical servers
[19:31] <Symmetria> if I direct ALL dns queries to one of them, it seems to peak out at 4k queries/second
[19:32] <Symmetria> if I direct them all to the other it does 800 / second
[19:32] <Symmetria> configs are identical
[19:32] <theblazehen> Symmetria: Would you be fine with sharing the IPs?
[19:34] <Symmetria> theblazehen yeah try and do recursive queries against <IP_ADDRESS>
[19:34] <Symmetria> thats the problem server
[19:37] <theblazehen> Symmetria: All configs, or just the dns server?
[19:39] <Symmetria> theblaze will send you configs in a second
[19:39] <Symmetria> just waiting to see something first (I just modified something on one of the servers)
[19:39] <theblazehen> sure
[19:44] <theblazehen> Symmetria: What's the other server?
[19:46] <Symmetria> try recurse3-zw-anycast.liquidtelecom.net
[19:46] <Symmetria> recurse1 is the problem one
[19:46] <Symmetria> 3 is ok
[19:47] <Symmetria> recurse1-za-anycast quite happily handles *SHITLOADS* of queries per second
[19:47] <Symmetria> am waiting for the cacti polling to show me latest stats
[19:48] <theblazehen> Where are you testing from?
[19:49] <Symmetria> heh, both local to the servers and outside, but what I'm really looking at is the queries per second before I start seeing them top out where i'm cacti graphing
[19:50] <theblazehen> Symmetria: Could it be a network issue? They go through different routes
[19:50] <Symmetria> no, they are both ESXI servers, on the same ESXI platform, just different (yet identical) blades, so same network interface
[19:52] <Symmetria> Im wondering if its not some operating system setting with regards to buffers or something
[19:52] <theblazehen> And this is from a fresh deployment? As in wipe both, and let confg management do its thing?
[19:52] <theblazehen> What does sysctl -a say?
[19:53] <theblazehen> Maybe diff those
[19:54] <Symmetria> just did, and sysctl's are now identical, still doeesnt seem to have helped *ponders*
[19:55] <Symmetria> (btw, just as a note, these servers form a part of the largest african recursive anycast in existence)
[19:55] <Symmetria> basically, they are the zimbabwe nodes of <IP_ADDRESS> and <IP_ADDRESS> (africas equiv. of <IP_ADDRESS> / <IP_ADDRESS>)
[19:55] <theblazehen> Nice. And running bind from what I can see?
[19:55] <theblazehen> awesome
[19:56] <Symmetria> yeah they are running bind
[19:57] <theblazehen> And all the others seem to run around 4k/s as well?
[19:59] <Symmetria> yeah, something aint right on the linux box though, looking at the packets per second through the interface, the RX PPS is about half (which I expect if I'm handling a lot less queries), but the TX is a fraction, like, 10% of the other
[19:59] <Symmetria> so something is bottlenecking the UDP outbound
[19:59] <theblazehen> Hmm
[20:00] <theblazehen> I wonder, try iperf maybe?
[20:00] <theblazehen> See if it's a PPS or bandwidth issue
[20:00] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[20:00] <theblazehen> cheers Kilos
[20:01] <theblazehen> Updating network configuration over ssh is always fun
[20:02] <theblazehen> More so if the remote management tool sometimes (for large values of sometimes) drops keystrokes
[20:04] <Symmetria> LOL, I generally write a new network config file on a third party platform and then copy it onto the system and either reboot or go in via console to apply it
[20:05] <theblazehen> Yeah, well, console is kind of not a possibility here..
[20:06] <theblazehen> Hosting company got bought out, and can't log in at new company
[20:06] <theblazehen> But I had old link to customer portal that didn't redirect me to new company
[20:06] <theblazehen> So I can turn it off and on again remotely
[20:07] <theblazehen> That's about it
[20:10] <Symmetria> heh buyouts are always interesting
[20:11] <Symmetria> though in my case I'm generally the guy that goes into the companies we just bought and integrate/change/restructure etc on the networking side
[20:11] <theblazehen> Cool
[20:11] <Symmetria> lol our next project is going to be very very interesting
[20:12] <Symmetria> heh next project - neotel ;p
[20:12] <theblazehen> fun
[20:15] <theblazehen> Looks like it's all going in a bash script then..
[20:20] <theblazehen> Well. It looks like I'm the type of guy that uses uses regex to extract info from anything (Seriously. I'm writing a smtp relay (*not* esmtp), using sed. And parsing notification emails with a regex and python), uses chattr +i when I don't want the file to be modified the right way, and uses bash scripts when there isn't a nice way to do something the right way
[20:21] <Symmetria> LOL
[20:21] <Symmetria> I do a lot of bash scripting shit as well
[20:21] <theblazehen> Unless someone knows how to bring up an openvpn bridge in /etc/network/interfaces, and then have a bridge to that defined?
[20:22] <theblazehen> Or can I use the openvpn tap device as a bridge directly?  I spent around 10 hours easy this weak to track down a single line of code in a module that I wasn't even looking in even though I should have..
[20:24] <theblazehen> week*
[20:25] <Symmetria> haha holy shit, that made a difference ;p
[20:25] <Symmetria> I had fucked up something on the DNS rate limiting on recurse1
[20:25] <theblazehen> Ah..
[20:26] <theblazehen> Why are you rate limiting?
[20:26] <theblazehen> Also, I'm sure you have, but if not, the cloudflare blog has some really interesting stuff on dns
[20:27] <theblazehen> have read it*
[20:27] <Symmetria> heh, we exempt all on net
[20:28] <Symmetria> and rate limit off net to a specific number of queries per second
[20:28] <theblazehen> Ah. Yeah, makes sense
[20:28] <Symmetria> to avoid people using the servers for recursion attacks
[20:28] <theblazehen> _all_ on net?
[20:28] <Symmetria> basically, we limit to 255 queries a second for offnet stuff - which is still pretty bloody high
[20:29] <theblazehen> So say, if a customer hasn't paid for their account
[20:29] <theblazehen> sometimes the isp will redirect to a landing page etc
[20:29] <theblazehen> Can they still query dns?
[20:29] <Symmetria> doesnt matter, rate limits on the DNS on these recursors are PURELY based on ip subnets
[20:29] <Symmetria> its basically an ip tables list of aggregated subnets that are a straight pass through, and then a connection tracking rule to limit everything else
[20:30] <theblazehen> sure. I'm just thinking if people on the inside can run dns tunneling?
[20:30] <theblazehen> eg. iodine
[20:30] <Symmetria> lol, they probably could but if they are that desperate *shrug*
[20:31] <theblazehen> It's faster than you'd think actually
[20:31] <theblazehen> And might be faster if you use a kind of parallel implementation
[20:32] <theblazehen> Or use a closer host
[20:32] <theblazehen> Or increase the window size I guess
[20:32] <Symmetria> heh yeah but we would see it, very fast
[20:32] <Symmetria> iodine uses specific query types
[20:33] <Symmetria> and we graph every server in terms of queries per second and in terms of number of queries per second of each TYPE of query
[20:33] <theblazehen> Yeah, but you can tell it to use A, AAAA etc too. But, by numbers, sure
[20:33] <Symmetria> yeah, but to get DECENT throughput, you'd still need to be doing thousands of queries a second
[20:34] <Symmetria> and thats gonna show up
[20:34] <Symmetria> and the other thing that would break it - and this is interesting, is the anycast
[20:34] <Symmetria> because when you send the queries to the normal anycast addresses
[20:34] <Symmetria> you can't guarantee WHICH server the query will end up as
[20:34] <theblazehen> yeah. Just saying that it might not be the query *type* that's gonna tip you off, but it'll definitely throw up red flags
[20:34] <Symmetria> that will break state tracking which is a requirement for TCP
[20:35] <Symmetria> heh, the whole DNS cluster, is made up of 14 seperate servers at the moment
[20:35] <Symmetria> and its about to go to 18
[20:36] <theblazehen> Would it break it? Iodine supports tracking connections on an identifier, and has sequence numbers etc
[20:36] <theblazehen> Cool
[20:36] <Symmetria> theblazehen, keep in mind, if you're doing TCP
[20:36] <theblazehen> I mean, with a single dns server there isn't any connection either if you're tunneling
[20:36] <Symmetria> you need to keep the connection properly orientated to a specific server
[20:36] <Symmetria> because TCP has to be able to syn/ack to specific addresses
[20:37] <theblazehen> Yeah, but this isn't running TCP itself
[20:37] <Symmetria> and here is the other trick involved, if you hit server 1
[20:37] <Symmetria> yeah but hold on
[20:37] <theblazehen> It's just doing dns queries to NS you specify
[20:37] <Symmetria> if you hit server 1 server 1's QUERY address
[20:37] <theblazehen> Which is then running the vpn
[20:37] <Symmetria> is NOT the address it goes and establishes connections from
[20:37] <theblazehen> Ah wait
[20:37] <Symmetria> and server 2 has a different query address
[20:37] <Symmetria> etc
[20:37] <theblazehen> You're No nevermind
[20:37] <Symmetria> and the server will have to maintain TCP state for a TCP connection to work
[20:37] <Symmetria> so this breaks that :)
[20:38] <theblazehen> Yeah, but the tcp doesn't have anything to do with the dns
[20:38] <theblazehen> Since you connect to the vpn server over dns, which then does the actual connections
[20:38] <Symmetria> yeah but the backend does, because you query the DNS, it sends packets and effectively "tunnnels" tcp
[20:38] <Symmetria> and if all the syn/ack packets are coming from different servers and different ips
[20:38] <Symmetria> it will break
[20:39] <Symmetria> mmmm
[20:39] <Symmetria> I'd need to test it
[20:39] <theblazehen> But all the syn/acks will be going to your vpn
[20:39] <Symmetria> heh, I'll do a throughput test and see what happens on it
[20:39] <theblazehen> Well, even if it works at all..
[20:39] <Symmetria> if I can get 10mbit through it, I'd be suprised :)
[20:39] <theblazehen> Do you restrict query sizes?
[20:39] <Symmetria> and if I can't get more than 10mbit lol, I wouldnt really care :)
[20:39] <theblazehen> for outside networks I mean
[20:40] <Symmetria> yes there are limits, would need to check what I set them to
[20:40] <theblazehen> well, I got 500 kbit, with unmodified iodine client, to a server in USA (270ms)
[20:40] <theblazehen> That's going through a proper dns server, not going direct
[20:40] <Symmetria> heheh 500kbit wouldnt really register in our traffic terms
[20:41] <theblazehen> And it wasn't optimal because of the small window size (of iodine, NOT TCP). COuld go faster with that increased probably
[20:41] <Symmetria> I start worrying about people abusing bandwidth when they start hitting 100mbit+
[20:41] <Symmetria> (and thats on a per client basis)
[20:42] <theblazehen> heh
[20:42] <Symmetria> LOL, lemme show you something quick
[20:42] <theblazehen> I can do up to 993 byte dns requests on cell c dns servers
[20:43] <theblazehen> which then gets base64'd, reducing that a bit
[20:43] <SEptic> sheesh, you guys are in to some pretty serious stuff :)
[20:43] <Symmetria> so, coupla notes about this
[20:44] <Symmetria> firstly, my upload speed is FAR better than this will show, but the window sizes on the wmem aren't optimised
[20:44] <Symmetria> for the latency
[20:44] <Symmetria> secondly, on the download speed, whats limiting me here is the interface on the mweb speed test server
[20:44] <Symmetria> iptables -A INPUT -p udp --dport 53 -m state --state NEW -m recent --set --name DNSQF --rsource
[20:44] <Symmetria> iptables -A INPUT -p udp --dport 53 -m state --state NEW -m recent --update --seconds 1 --hitcount 255 --name DNSQF --rsource -j DROP
[20:44] <Symmetria> ooops
[20:44] <Symmetria> http://www.speedtest.net/result/5531549486.png
[20:44] <Symmetria> there
[20:44] <Symmetria> ;p
[20:45] <Symmetria> thats me testing from my house in Nairobi to mweb in South Africa
[20:45] <Symmetria> :P and doing that, is still only using 5% of the bandwidth into my house
[20:46] <Symmetria> now you know why I aint worried about 500kbit :)
[20:46] <theblazehen> nice..
[20:46] <Symmetria> heh, basically, my house has 2 x 10G links into it
[20:46] <theblazehen> And here I am about to pay R600 or so extra per month to increase my upload from 1 mbit to 2 mbit..
[20:46] <Symmetria> and my desktop and server both have 10G links into them
[20:46] <theblazehen> Nice
[20:46] <theblazehen> Ethernet?
[20:47] <Symmetria> Fiber
[20:47] <Symmetria> but yeah Ethernet encap
[20:47] <theblazehen> Cool. Yeah, heard FC is cheaper
[20:47] <Symmetria> heh, and I have the advantage of the fact that unlike normal clients, who go through normal client infrastructure
[20:47] <Symmetria> I dont, I plug straight into the backbone routers
[20:48] <theblazehen> Awesome
[20:48] <Symmetria> heh, Im dying to get my hands into Neotel's network though and see how I can optimize it
[20:48] <Symmetria> few months away :)
[20:48] <theblazehen> Nice.
[20:49] <Symmetria> we've completed the purchase (you might have seen the media announcing we bought em)
[20:49]  * theblazehen always tries to optimize stuff too..
[20:49] <theblazehen> Hmm, didn't really look at news much
[20:49] <Symmetria> heh vodacom tried to buy em, they failed
[20:49] <Symmetria> Liquid succeeded :)
[20:49] <theblazehen> Cool
[20:50] <Symmetria> (I head up network strategy for Liquid Telecommunications at group level)
[20:50] <theblazehen> cool
[20:51] <Symmetria> heh we're involved in some fun stuff at the moment though, wheeeee we're building our own submarine cable
[20:51] <Symmetria> and capacity wise, lol, it makes seacom look *tiny*
[20:52] <theblazehen> Must be fun..
[20:53] <Symmetria> lol yeah, but stressful and complicated :)
[20:53] <theblazehen> Ever break something big?
[20:54] <Symmetria> LOL, it happens occasioally :P
[20:54] <Symmetria> its not often, but like anyone who works at the level I do, we've all made our mistakes
[20:54] <Symmetria> most of them BGP based ;p
[20:55] <theblazehen> yeah
[20:55] <Symmetria> lol, though one of my team made a chronic fuckup at 4am this morning that resulted in me getting very panicky phone calls a few minutes later
[20:55] <theblazehen> Ouch :/
[20:56] <Symmetria> :P he accidently nuked the wrong config and took out enough customers to wipe out 7gigs of bandwidth usage
[20:56] <Symmetria> I had it back online 10 minutes later but haha man, what a fuckup
[20:56] <theblazehen> My funnest time I ended up sleeping around 6 hours spread over 4-5 days :(
[20:56] <theblazehen> wow
[20:56] <Symmetria> thats the biggest problem working with huge networks and massive routers, type the wrong thing, and you can do *SERIOUS* damage with a single command
[20:57] <theblazehen> Yeah. Or config management stuff too
[20:57] <theblazehen> You saw that stackoverflow post, that ended up being an advertisement?
[20:57] <Symmetria> lol I mean, on certain routers, a single command can take out *6 MILLION* peoples net access via their phones
[20:57] <Symmetria> kinda scary :p
[20:57] <Symmetria> heh, nah?
[20:58] <kulelu88> did Symmetria just say he is donating the Zim DNS servers for me to build my botnet?
[20:58] <theblazehen> http://meta.serverfault.com/questions/8696/what-to-do-with-the-rm-rf-hoax-question
[20:59] <Symmetria> heh kule I wouldnt suggest you trying something like that :)
[20:59] <Symmetria> if you know a bit about me, lol, I play nasty with people who try that haha
[21:00] <Symmetria> haha oh I saw that a while back theblaze
[21:02] <Symmetria> btw, theblaze, with regards to 10G stuff and ethernet vs FC
[21:02] <Symmetria> FC only really works for storage stuff
[21:02] <Symmetria> the other thing about 10G, copper 10G on CAT6 is relatively cheap
[21:02] <Symmetria> its when you go fiber that the price starts climbing, and particularly if you go from multi-mode to single-mode
[21:03] <kulelu88> Symmetria: you won't find me, I am running my Tor network via Peru via Ethiopia :D
[21:03] <Symmetria> because the cost of the optic is where the money is at :)
[21:03] <kulelu88> Symmetria: how much will it cost for FTTH if you don't live far from wholesale fibre?
[21:04] <Symmetria> kule in ZA?
[21:04] <theblazehen> Symmetria: ah
[21:04] <kulelu88> yeah
[21:04] <Symmetria> not sure yet :) ask me in 6 or 8 months once we complete the Neotel stuff
[21:04] <Symmetria> I can tell you what we're selling in KE at :P
[21:04] <theblazehen> kulelu88: Well, kinda useless to mention those locations.  :D
[21:17] <SymmTest> heh kule would need a lot more details to figure out what they were actually looking for
[21:17] <SymmTest> we do some... rather interesting things :)
[21:17] <kulelu88> are you guys wholesale?
[21:17] <SymmTest> kule LOL, we're... a bit of everything
[21:17] <SymmTest> we own the largest fiber network on the african continent
[21:17] <kulelu88> wait wait... I know the answer to this
[21:18] <kulelu88> "corporate IT solutions, telecoms and services provider"
[21:18] <SymmTest> we do everything from wholesale to retail to voice switching to transaction processing
[21:18] <SymmTest> nah, wrong answer :P
[21:18] <kulelu88> theblazehen: are you still sending me CTCPs?
[21:18] <SymmTest> do don't go near corporate IT solutions as such
[21:19] <SymmTest> heh kule Liquid is part Telco, part ISP in reality
[21:19] <theblazehen> kulelu88: Yup. So, you're exiting through a bot in your botnet then?
[21:19] <theblazehen> Sure
[21:19] <theblazehen> looks like it
[21:19] <theblazehen> high latency
[21:20] <theblazehen> Node in france
[21:20] <kulelu88> theblazehen: how do I request your CTCP?
[21:21] <theblazehen> kulelu88: What you don't know wont hurt you :)
[21:21] <SymmTest> heh, I kinda miss my days on the darkside
[21:22] <SymmTest> its been far 2 long since I had the time or motivation to sit and write exploits
[21:22]  * theblazehen wishes that I had continued with that a bit
[21:22] <theblazehen> Was never more than a skiddie myself
[21:22] <theblazehen> But still
[21:22] <SymmTest> lol, I wrote the first ever exploit against the cisco pix firewalls back in the 90s
[21:22] <SymmTest> that was fun
[21:22] <theblazehen> Well, I found something decent recently
[21:22] <SymmTest> it reset all the state tables
[21:22] <theblazehen> But I did the whole "responsible disclosure" thing...
[21:22] <SymmTest> we used to sit on irc and kick everyone off who was behind pix firewalls for amusement ;p
[21:22] <theblazehen> nice
[21:23] <SymmTest> by resetting their state tables and killing all their tcp connections
[21:23] <SymmTest> heh, was actually a really simple exploit, their checking of source and destination and sequencing on RST packets was chronic
[21:23] <kulelu88> corporate corner-cutting
[21:23] <SymmTest> so the right spoofed RST packets and you could nuke state entries, cycle through port numbers and you could kill anything
[21:24] <theblazehen> Cool
[21:24] <SymmTest> (that stil works against severael state based firewalls out there)
[21:25] <SymmTest> heh, almost all the exploits and stuff I wrote though were network based - attacking the network stack was always more interesting than attacking systems for me
[21:25] <kulelu88> why you 2 hour behind? theblazehen
[21:25] <SymmTest> because there is sooooo much you can do and its actually relatively unexplored territory
[21:25] <kulelu88> layer3?  Me? Never...
[21:50] <paddatrapper> superfly: Mainly because I still need to learn bzr :) And I am not doing that tonight. Though with the pain that is launchpad's git I think I may have to learn it quickly before anyone actually looks at the repo :)
[21:52] <kulelu88> somebody visit theblazehen link for me :D
[21:56] <pavlushka> kulelu88: the pcap size is only 524 kB, :)
[21:57] <kulelu88> what's the contents? pavlushka
[21:58] <pavlushka> kulelu88: I may have to run wireshark for that which I will not, :p
[22:00] <superfly> paddatrapper: I've never used git with Launchpad, and I know Launchpad was written for bzr
[22:02] <theblazehen> Ah what the hell.  Wanna continue tomorrow?
[22:12] <Symmetria> heh
[22:12] <Symmetria> I'm throwing a HUGE load test
[22:12] <Symmetria> at my DNS servers now
[22:12] <Symmetria> for the next 10 minutes
[22:31] <paddatrapper> superfly: Well it is now bzr based. Easier than I thought to transition
[23:54] <qwebirc47668> Morning


[00:00] <bluesabre> Oh, right. Words. :(
[00:01] <bluesabre> saxx_: cool, how do you like it?
[00:01] <saxx_> I've always loved it, but finally made the move and started using is as main OS
[00:01] <Unit193> ochosi: I don't use it, so I'd not be the best example.
[00:02] <Unit193> ochosi: I think we could likely spruce up bluesabre's file a tad?
[00:02] <ochosi> sounds good
[00:02] <bluesabre> saxx_: awesome, welcome to full-time xubuntu usage :)
[00:02] <ochosi> we just need an assignee to be able to track it
[00:03] <saxx_> Thanks blue :) I'll be on here a lot for sure :)
[00:03] <brainwash> we switch to compton in 14.10?!
[00:04] <ochosi> cool, welcome saxx_ :)
[00:04] <saxx_> Thanks ochosi :)
[00:04] <ochosi> brainwash: no, but considering to provide a default config for ppl who wanna use it
[00:04] <ochosi> brainwash: weren't you one of the compton advocates? :)
[00:04] <brainwash> well, yes and no
[00:05] <ochosi> people don't seem to wanna decide today
[00:05] <brainwash> what kind of default config? hardware differs and demands special configuration options
[00:05] <Unit193> brainwash: So easier usage, but not shipped.
[00:05] <brainwash> or you mean shadow settings and so on?
[00:05] <ochosi> yeah
[00:06] <ochosi> exceptions for xfce4-notifyd and tabwin
[00:06] <ochosi> whatever can be generically pre-configured
[00:06] <ochosi> that's why we need a person in charge of that
[00:06] <ochosi> i'm happy with anyone stepping up to do that tbh :)
[00:06] <brainwash> I don't like the fancy stuff
[00:07] <brainwash> so I don't feel like messing around with it
[00:08] <ochosi> bluesabre: fwiw, the stuff i pushed to your phone wrt the lid-lock bug was relevant :)
[00:08] <ochosi> i can repeat it here though, if you wnat
[00:08] <ochosi> want/need
[00:08] <bluesabre> ochosi: I got it
[00:09] <ochosi> ok cool
[00:09] <bluesabre> I'll try to hack on that a bit tonight
[00:09] <ochosi> btw, caveat: could be that the xfconf variable isn't working so great even in the current patch
[00:12] <bluesabre> woot
[00:12] <ochosi> :)
[00:12] <bluesabre> need to sit down and really hack on this
[00:12] <bluesabre> I wish the issue affected me so I could verify :D
[00:13] <ochosi> hah, you wish?! :D
[00:13] <ochosi> just get your old computer from the drawer
[00:14] <ochosi> anyway, i gotta hit the sack now
[00:16] <bluesabre> seeya ochosi
[00:16] <ochosi> night bluesabre
[00:16] <ochosi> oh btw, there's still a parole branch (goto-feature) waiting for your review in case you're bored or something ;)
[00:17] <bluesabre> or yeah
[00:18] <bluesabre> I need to stop slacking!
[00:18] <ochosi> hehe
[08:31] <knome> heh, first one to complain about desktop wallpapers on login screen ;)
[08:32] <ochosi> nah, there is even a bugreport about that
[08:32] <knome> aha, haven't seen that
[08:32] <knome> what'cha gonna do?
[08:33] <ochosi> and we have a branch with a fix, i.e. an option to disable it
[08:33] <knome> :)
[08:33] <knome> oki
[08:33] <knome> sounds good
[08:33] <ochosi> so in 14.10 ppl will be able to switch it off
[08:33] <knome> i now have way less hair
[08:33] <ochosi> we should probably get the greeter-settings UI installed by default
[08:33] <knome> just FYI
[08:33] <ochosi> you mean then before you became XPL?
[08:33] <knome> mhm, sounds sane
[08:33] <knome> hah!
[08:33] <knome> nah, since yesterday ;)
[08:34] <knome> it's literally so *cool*
[08:34] <ochosi> :}
[08:35] <knome> what's up with the black screen fix?
[08:35] <ochosi> well bluesabre returned a bit late last night, so we couldn't work on it together
[08:35] <knome> right
[08:36] <knome> wasn't there one ready already?
[08:36] <knome> or didn't that fix it?
[08:36] <ochosi> yeah, but one with drawbacks that was mostly a proof-of-concept
[08:36] <knome> hmmh
[08:36] <ochosi> it should test whether not inhibiting logind solves the problem
[08:36] <ochosi> (and it does)
[08:36] <knome> right
[08:36] <ochosi> doing a proper fix is (as always) more work
[08:36] <knome> of course
[08:37] <ochosi> the main issue being not breaking xscreensaver
[08:37] <knome> is it completely triaged now though?
[08:41] <ochosi> i dunno, i'm less worried about the bug status then about fixing it
[08:41] <ochosi> also the comments are still flowing in for it (which is annoying and a bit useless), so i stopped checking the bugreport
[08:42] <knome> heh, well, it's not really about the bug status
[08:42] <knome> i'm worried about fixing it too, and being completely triaged is a good thing for that
[15:42] <ochosi> omg, i wonder how ppl can think this is a good thing... http://worldofgnome.org/running-gtk-applications-different-themes-per-app/
[16:37] <elfy> ochosi: no chance of that in xfce then :p
[16:38] <ochosi> well you can do that already anyway
[16:38] <ochosi> it's just a very silly thing imo
[16:38] <ochosi> (even in gtk2)
[16:41] <elfy> well I'm glad I've never seen it ;)
[16:46] <GridCube> ochosi, why would it be silly? don't the themes reside already in the system? is loading the themes for each applications counter productive?
[16:57] <knome> why would you implicitly want to make your system not look consistent/integrated?
[17:07] <GridCube> because not everyone like things to look the same all the time?
[17:07] <GridCube> because some people might want to visually differentiate some applications from others visually?
[17:07] <GridCube> i don't know
[17:08] <GridCube> i used visually twice
[17:10] <ochosi> :)
[17:11] <ochosi> well anyway, ppl could and did always do this, i still think it's the worst
[17:43] <elfy> lost the sound indicator :(
[17:50] <GridCube> :(
[19:27] <ochosi> elfy: how did you lose it?
[19:28] <elfy> no idea ochosi
[19:28] <elfy> the others are there
[19:29] <elfy> not got around to checking updates
[19:30] <elfy> nothing apparent
[19:30] <ochosi> odd
[19:30] <ochosi> checked any logs yet?
[19:31] <elfy> just checked apt history log for today
[19:31] <ochosi> so it just happened today?
[19:31] <elfy> yea - was there last night
[19:31] <ochosi> humm
[19:31] <elfy> I know that - had recoccurence of the last 20% vol change making no difference
[19:32] <elfy> I'll check I didn't cause it
[19:38] <elfy> ochosi: I guess that it did cause it :p
[19:38] <ochosi> so it's back nowÃ
[19:39] <elfy> current choice is vol control that works from 20% -100% or no indicator
[19:39] <ochosi> err, what?
[19:40] <elfy> I've got this again bug 1321485
[19:40] <ochosi> oh :/
[19:40] <ochosi> i wasn't aware of such a bug
[19:41] <ochosi> hw related?
[19:41] <elfy> I had it some time ago - for time read couple of years - came back
[19:41] <elfy> ochosi: same hardware I have had since I started using ubuntu in 2007 :p
[19:41] <ochosi> right
[19:41] <ochosi> odd
[19:41] <ochosi> and the ignore_dB does what exactly?
[19:42] <elfy> I have no idea what it does exactly software wise but it allows the vol keys to work properly down to mute
[19:43] <elfy> possibly something not matching in alsa and pulse
[19:43] <elfy> *shrug*
[19:44] <ochosi> hmyeah, shrugging would also be my reaction :)
[19:45] <elfy> heh
[19:45] <elfy> I ought to really check in 14.04
[19:45] <elfy> low volumes via keyboards isn't something I often do
[19:57] <knome> pleia2, cool, xubuntu talks
[19:57] <knome> well. almost
[19:58] <elfy> shall I remove (TODO: Link to docs for it). from the lightlocker article :p
[19:58] <knome> yeah...
[19:58] <knome> :P
[19:59] <knome> good job reviewers!
[19:59]  * knome looks in the mirror
[19:59] <pleia2> knome: haha, just a little xubuntu
[19:59] <knome> ;)
[19:59] <knome> screenshots and all!
[19:59] <ochosi> hehe, indeed
[20:00] <elfy> done that then
[20:00] <elfy> lol
[20:00] <knome> ta elfy
[20:08] <ochosi> fwiw, is there a docs-link now?
[20:14] <knome> http://docs.xubuntu.org/1404/guide-keeping-safe.html#lock-your-screen ?
[20:19] <ochosi> mm, sounds okay to me
[20:19]  * knome tries to squeeze any sound of the URL but in vain
[20:19] <Unit193> Clearly not using espeak.
[20:20] <knome> mm
[20:33] <ochosi> on a more serious note, is anyone here (apart from me) interested in setting up some sort of bug-bounty programme for xubuntu?
[20:35] <knome> it's not a bad idea, but the bounty and target will be clearly defined and generally accepted by the team
[20:35] <knome> what would the bounty be? some of the mag money?
[20:35] <elfy> I've just got some vague unease that's very hard to put into words
[20:36] <elfy> apart from a vague sense of unease ;)
[20:36] <brainwash> way too much work to set it up and maintain such a system
[20:37] <knome> does it need a high-leve bureaucratic system?
[20:37] <brainwash> it should be fair and transparent
[20:37] <knome> in what sense fair?
[20:37] <knome> if the target is to fix a bug, it isn't fair for people who only have artistic talent
[20:37] <brainwash> people should not abuse the system
[20:38] <knome> which is why i said the bounty and target should be clearly specified
[20:38] <ochosi> i think that elementary are using a third party site
[20:38] <knome> i don't understand what kind of "system" we need here
[20:38] <knome> just list things we want to be fixed, set bounties, and go
[20:38] <ochosi> so i think there it is up to  the users that can pledge bounties
[20:39] <knome> right...
[20:39] <elfy> ochosi: like a "I want this fixed - here's x £'s" ?
[20:39] <knome> social bounty then?
[20:39] <ochosi> elfy: pretty much
[20:39] <ochosi> knome: nope, $$$
[20:39] <knome> i mean,
[20:39] <elfy> mmm
[20:39] <knome> social in the way that the xubuntu team isn't participating in paying the bounty
[20:40] <ochosi> yea
[20:40] <knome> i'd imagine there to be sites that allow doing that
[20:40] <ochosi> yeah, i can find the elementary site...
[20:40] <knome> just pick one that seems to work well, create a xubuntu tag or sth and announce it being "official", as far as there is anything official...
[20:40] <ochosi> yeah, that could already be sufficient
[20:40] <ochosi> and we can still advertise it as a team
[20:40] <knome> that would be much better than getting involved with the system itself really
[20:41] <ochosi> i mean "advertise"...
[20:41] <ochosi> exactly
[20:41] <knome> yeah, as much as we advertise other social media outlets etc
[20:41] <elfy> one downside being - with a finite amount of people looking at bugs - the emphasis could shift from xfpm to some random thing
[20:41] <ochosi> sure
[20:41] <ochosi> it's very democratic
[20:41] <knome> if people want silly things.. who cares?
[20:41] <knome> as long as it doesn't involve "by default in xubuntu"
[20:41] <ochosi> but generally speaking it could also be that we lose interest in the fix and just give up on it :)
[20:42] <knome> which i guess is something we should make a statement about
[20:42] <elfy> hang on
[20:42] <elfy> that's a bit premature
[20:42] <knome> what is?
[20:43] <elfy> knome> which i guess is something we should make a statement about
[20:43] <knome> well, i obviously meant if we set something up
[20:43] <elfy> that just assumes that ochosi> on a more serious note, is anyone here (apart from me) interested in setting up some sort of bug-bounty programme for xubuntu? is going to happen
[20:43] <ochosi> https://www.bountysource.com/issues/357765-load-foreground-tab-from-cache-when-restoring-session
[20:43] <knome> to state that there is no guarantee that pledges like "please install libreoffice by default in xubuntu" are not really valid...
[20:43] <ochosi> this is an example ^
[20:44] <brainwash> so we stop fixing bugs until this bug bounty program goes live :)
[20:44] <knome> one option is a system where the team can approve/decline any possible pledge
[20:44] <elfy> I think we should install libreoffice-calc and -writer by default
[20:44] <ochosi> and this is how they do it in launchpad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/elementary/+bugs?field.tag=bounty
[20:44] <ochosi> brainwash: hehe, or we pledge team funds instead of fixing annoying bugs ourselves ;)
[20:45] <ochosi> i guess we need to vote on me registering the xubuntu project on that page
[20:46] <brainwash> however, most/many bugs are Xfce upstream ones
[20:46] <ochosi> oh, we can actually use "our" facebook account (in case we have one) for logging in
[20:46] <knome> i think we should have a broader discussion before that :)
[20:46] <ochosi> brainwash: yeah, sure, but we can always push them upstream
[20:47] <brainwash> maybe get the Xfce devs and maintainers involved too?
[20:48] <ochosi> https://www.bountysource.com/teams/midori/issues
[20:48] <ochosi> as another example
[20:48] <ochosi> brainwash: which xfce devs? :D
[20:48] <knome> ochosi, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/community-announce
[20:48] <knome> ochosi, ^ subscribe PLZ, it's a *very* low-traffic list
[20:48] <knome> ochosi, last email in february
[20:48] <brainwash> all of them.. show them some $$$ and they will start working again :P
[20:48] <ochosi> knome: what for then?
[20:48] <knome> ochosi, before that, november
[20:49] <knome> ochosi, uds announcements and such
[20:49] <ochosi> brainwash: unfortunately i doubt that...
[20:50] <brainwash> but these people are usually the ones who can "easily" fix bugs in their software
[20:52] <brainwash> we'll see, maybe they'll notice the bug bounty program and start fixing some bugs
[20:52] <ali1234> the thing about bugs is that bugs are easy to fix
[20:52] <ali1234> figuring out how to reproduce them is hard
[20:53] <ali1234> and getting upstream to commit a patch is hard
[20:53] <ali1234> so i think that a bug bounty site should roll over at each of these steps
[20:53] <ochosi> ali1234: well the most effective way is becoming an upstream contributor
[20:53] <brainwash> or fork
[20:53] <ochosi> or talking to upstream devs directly somehow
[20:53] <ochosi> meh, forking is meh
[20:54] <brainwash> but it works.. sometimes
[20:54] <ali1234> so for a new bug, the bounty would go up as people donate. once it can be 100% reproduced, whoever figured that step out gets the current bounty
[20:54] <ali1234> then the counter starts again at zero until someone submits a patch
[20:54] <ali1234> then it starts again at zero, whoever commits the patch upstream gets that bounty
[20:54] <ochosi> right, i'm not sure users get that...
[20:54] <brainwash> mmh
[20:55] <ochosi> most ppl have no idea how these processes work
[20:55] <brainwash> keep it simple
[20:55] <ali1234> well you know what they say about fools and money
[20:55] <ochosi> and they'd be frustrated to see their money go away without a fix
[20:55] <ochosi> ali1234: there's a lot of both? :p
[20:55]  * ochosi actually doesn't know what they say about them...
[20:55] <ali1234> they are soon parted
[20:56] <ali1234> anyway the point is that this system rewards the actually hard part
[20:57] <ali1234> if a bug is hard to reproduce and easy to fix, then whoever reproduced it gets the most reward
[20:57] <ali1234> if it's easy to reproduce and hard to fix, the counter will go higher during the fixing stage
[20:58] <ali1234> it's also intended that this is a system where anyone can donate to any bug at any time
[20:59] <ochosi> yeah, but why wouldnt the person doing the hard part also do the simple part of fixing the bug?
[20:59] <ochosi> that's a sort of logic that is over my head...
[20:59] <knome> unable to?
[20:59] <ali1234> maybe, but in that case they won't get any donations for the fix
[21:00] <ali1234> only for reproducing it
[21:00] <knome> ali1234, wouldn't *that* open room for playing the system?
[21:00] <ali1234> if they try to game it by posting the reproduction steps and not the fix, then someone else can snipe them
[21:00] <knome> "i reproduced it, now i'll wait until more pledges land until i fix it"
[21:00] <knome> ali1234, except that the fixer "wouldn't get any donations for the fix"
[21:00] <knome> as you said
[21:01] <knome> so why would somebody *else* fix it? immediately?
[21:01] <knome> -?
[21:01] <knome> this sounds like things are going to slow down
[21:01] <ochosi> ali1234: i dunno what bugs you have in mind specifically, but those you were working on lately are *technically* so hard to reproduce that i agree, that was the hardest part...
[21:01] <ali1234> that will always be a problem with bounties
[21:01] <knome> while it's not always fair, there should be just one bounty, for landing the final fix
[21:02] <ali1234> that will result in many bounties never being paid
[21:02] <knome> people who are experiencing the issue are most probably also willing to help debug/reproduce
[21:02] <knome> well, too bad...
[21:02] <ochosi> yeah, i guess that's okayish
[21:02] <knome> it's not like people *want* to part with their money
[21:03] <ochosi> anyway, i think that in the bountysource.com programme you can't set such finegrain control
[21:03] <ochosi> but i can ask kalikiana, he has obviously used it
[21:04] <ali1234> the problem with requiring landing the fix is what happens when someone posts a bounty that the upstream project will never accept?
[21:04] <ochosi> well that's where xubuntu comes in imo
[21:04] <ali1234> those bounties will just clog up the system
[21:05] <knome> that's why i said something about the team accepting/rejecting new pledges
[21:05] <ochosi> if it's a distro patch that gets applied in xubuntu and the money was pledged in the xubuntu project...
[21:06] <ali1234> and if landing the fix gets the bounty, then project owners can game the system, by rejecting patches from others and fixing it themselves
[21:07] <ochosi> i'd suggest we ask ppl who have used this system
[21:07] <ochosi> or: one of these systems
[21:07] <ochosi> also, note that the bounties mostly have symbolic value
[21:07] <ochosi> xubuntu will never draw so much attention that we get substantial bounties (i guess)
[21:08] <ochosi> getting 50$ for a fix is not a great incentive to "play the system"
[21:08] <ochosi> also, you'll know as a maintainer that you'll probably never get a patch again from that person if you trick them out of their bounty
[21:08] <ochosi> (it's like falsely attributing a patch to yourself in vcs)
[21:08] <Unit193> What about bugs with no bounty?  Won't those get ignored?
[21:09] <knome> ali1234, err, are you suggesting we will create a system to be able to play it?
[21:10] <knome> if anybody in the team did that, they should kicked hard in the lower back
[21:10] <ali1234> money does weird things to people :(
[21:10] <knome> like we are all here to make money :P
[21:10] <brainwash> soon
[21:10] <ali1234> just look at bitcoin
[21:11] <knome> yes... but that hardly changed people who were working on things *already*
[21:11] <knome> i don't really understand the argument
[21:11] <knome> if xubuntu developers just wanted to make money out of xubuntu, they would have found a way already
[21:11] <knome> or got lost
[21:16] <Unit193> Some of us are very lost...
[21:20] <ochosi> Unit193: they won't get ignored more than they do now i think
[23:22] <ochosi> bluesabre: so let me summarize again...
[23:22] <ochosi> what happens is this (as far as we know)
[23:22] <ochosi> 1) user closes the lid
[23:22] <ochosi> 2) xfpm notices the event and handles it
[23:22] <ochosi> 3) it fires off xflock4, which calls light-locker
[23:23] <ochosi> 4) light-locker initiates a VT switch by locking
[23:23] <ochosi> 4) system goes to suspend
[23:23] <ochosi> so as you can see, there are two 4)s
[23:23] <ochosi> that is not accidental, but actually the problem
[23:23] <knome> lol
[23:24] <ochosi> these two things aren't handled well by a "stupid" bash script as xflock is one
[23:24] <ochosi> logind always seems to handle the VT switch + suspending correclt
[23:24] <ochosi> y
[23:25] <bluesabre> ok, so that's part of the story, now for the patch
[23:25] <bluesabre> it introduces a new xfconf-setting inhibit-logind
[23:25] <bluesabre> which does what, exactly?
[23:26] <ochosi> so, we can mitigate this problem by *not* inhibiting logind in terms of handling the lid-close event (but only if 1) lid-close > lock settings is true in xfpm and 2) light-locker is in use)
[23:26] <ochosi> the patch introduces a BIG logind-inhibit killswitch. so you can only decide whether logind handles all or none of these events: power-button, suspend-button, hibernate-button, lid-event
[23:27] <ochosi> so we only want to make it take effect on the lid-event
[23:27] <ochosi> the rest should be controlled by xfpm, because there's at least a settings UI for it (which there isn't for logind)
[23:28] <ochosi> and last but not least, xscreensaver...
[23:28] <ochosi> xscreensaver *needs* the xflock4 call from xfpm before suspending on lid-close, it doesn't listen to logind's lock signal (which light-locker does, if it's started with --lock-on-suspend)
[23:30] <bluesabre> yeah
[23:30] <ochosi> all "clear"? :)
[23:30] <ochosi> it's really quite the kerfuffle...
[23:30] <bluesabre> which is why I feel like light-locker should in fact be a bit smarter and toggle the setting itself
[23:31] <ochosi> i only hope that we don't create a new problem with this
[23:31] <ochosi> because:
[23:31] <ochosi> 1) light-locker is set to lock the session on suspend
[23:31] <Unit193> And for all purposes, gnome-screensaver == xscreensaver?
[23:32] <ochosi> 2) xfpm is set to lock the session on suspend/lid-close
[23:32] <ochosi> so if the lid-close event is inhibited i guess xfpm should also *not* actively lock the session
[23:33] <ochosi> Unit193: no, i think gnome-screensaver actually *does* listen to the logind lock signal
[23:33] <ochosi> (btw, don't hit me with the rod if it's not logind sending the dbus lock signal but something else)
[23:33] <Unit193> Ah.  I take it newer xscreensaver still doesn't?
[23:34] <ochosi> yup
[23:35] <ochosi> xscreensaver only does something if you call it specifically (or the timeout runs out)
[23:35] <bluesabre> I'd be in favor of the string option
[23:35] <bluesabre> or multiple bools
[23:35] <ochosi> yeah, i think the string option is the sanest
[23:35] <bluesabre> xfce4-power-manager/logind/
[23:35] <ochosi> multiple bools have the advantage of not having to evaluate the string...
[23:35] <bluesabre> and then each of the possible settings there
[23:36] <ochosi> yup
[23:36] <bluesabre> this seems more painful than ripping mate's display dialog out of mate
[23:37] <ochosi> yeah, mostly because there are so many actors that need to react to one another
[23:37] <ochosi> if only light-locker wouldn't have to switch VT
[23:37] <ochosi> i wonder though
[23:37] <knome> actors like hugh grant?
[23:37] <bluesabre> is eric around?
[23:37] <ochosi> would it all be solved by using late-locking?
[23:37]  * knome hides and laughs
[23:37] <bluesabre> nope
[23:38] <bluesabre> late-locking still locks on lid-close I believe
[23:38] <ochosi> yeah, true, it doesn't apply in this case
[23:38] <ochosi> silly ochosi
[23:38] <ochosi> eric is only around at very specific times of day, much like yourself ;)
[23:39] <bluesabre> :)
[23:39] <ochosi> around 3-5PM UTC
[23:39] <bluesabre> so, how would you like to proceed, or knome/Unit193, thoughts?
[23:39] <knome> well, fix it..? :)
[23:40] <bluesabre> :D
[23:40] <ochosi> super-constructive as always :)
[23:40] <knome> well, what do you expect from a non-technical guy at almost 3am?
[23:40] <knome> bools sound sane to me
[23:41] <knome> but i'm unable judge if there are drawbacks or not
[23:41] <Unit193> kI think he's tired, he asked me too.
[23:41] <knome> and whether they are bad enough to make the option not viable
[23:42] <ochosi> bluesabre: the bools are easier to handle in settings-editor
[23:42] <bluesabre> yes
[23:42] <ochosi> for those that need to re-enable logind-inhibition for xscreensaver
[23:42] <ochosi> or actually
[23:42] <knome> and easier to understand on the code level as well.
[23:42] <knome> and no wondering what the possible options are
[23:43] <ochosi> logind can still be switched to ON in xfpm with xscreensaver
[23:43] <knome> or syntax, in some cases
[23:43] <ochosi> it just needs to call xflock in this case
[23:43] <ochosi> hah
[23:43] <ochosi> i got it
[23:43] <bluesabre> finally
[23:43] <ochosi> ok, listen up
[23:43] <bluesabre> :P
[23:43] <knome> yes sir!
[23:43]  * ochosi hopes he'll make sense now...
[23:43]  * ochosi feels his hands are getting sweaty
[23:43] <knome> probably not sir
[23:44] <ochosi> ok, so the problem is not logind in a way
[23:44] <ochosi> it's the lock signal
[23:44] <ochosi> light-locker -> logind
[23:44] <ochosi> xscreen-saver -> xflock4
[23:44] <ochosi> but, for xscreensaver it doesn#t matter whether logind sends the lock signal
[23:44] <ochosi> it doesnt listen
[23:45]  * knome faints with "xscreen-saver"
[23:45] <ochosi> so we can *always* uninhibit logind if the lid-close event is set to suspend and lock on suspend is on
[23:45] <ochosi> in xubuntu, that is
[23:45] <ochosi> upstream it'll be a different story
[23:46] <ochosi> but i'll think about that tomorrow after multiple hours of sleep
[23:46] <bluesabre> sounds promising
[23:47] <ochosi> well it should make things less compley
[23:47] <ochosi> complex
[23:47] <bluesabre> less compley would be good
[23:47] <knome> hehe
[23:49] <ochosi> bluesabre: so, we need xfpm patched that if (lid-close-event=suspend && lock-on-suspend=TRUE) { !inhibit_logind }
[23:49] <ochosi> and we need to re-enable --lock-on-suspend in light-locker(-settings)
[23:49] <bluesabre> fun
[23:50] <ochosi> well the latter you've already done, no?
[23:50] <bluesabre> I think yes
[23:50] <bluesabre> this whole thing has been very confusing for me
[23:50] <ochosi> i know, i'm sorry. it *is* confusing.
[23:50] <ochosi> for me too
[23:51] <ochosi> i guess you'd want me to point you to the portions of code that are relevant?
[23:51] <bluesabre> that would be helpful
[23:53] <ochosi> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/tree/src/xfpm-manager.c#n318
[23:53] <ochosi> that is the part that handles the lid
[23:53] <ochosi> i'd add a check there for those two variables i mentioned above
[23:54] <ochosi> s/variables/settings/
[23:54] <ochosi> (gah, i'm really a bit tired ...)
[23:54] <ochosi> this is the code for inhibiting systemd: http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-power-manager/tree/src/xfpm-main.c#n198
[23:55] <ochosi> it'd be best to replace the const "handle-power-key:handle-suspend-key:handle-hibernate-key:handle-lid-switch" with just "handle-power-key:handle-suspend-key:handle-hibernate-key" i guess
[23:56] <bluesabre> ok, I'll try to get started with that tonight
[23:56] <ochosi> this is eric's concept patch: https://github.com/EricKoegel/xfce4-power-manager/commit/21b8e5abf4e5f93c28cb964b4618b9b509780951
[23:56] <ochosi> this fixes things with light-locker ^
[23:56] <ochosi> but breaks it with xscreensaver obviously, cause it relies on logind sending the lock signal
[23:57] <bluesabre> right
[23:57] <ochosi> well, "breaks"... it just doesnt lock the session on suspend