[16:04] <infinity> o/
[16:07] <mdeslaur> hello
[16:07] <infinity> Hai.
[16:09] <infinity> Hrm.  Seems to just be the two of us, which isn't exactly quorum.
[16:09] <mdeslaur> yeah
[16:09] <mdeslaur> slackers :)
[16:10] <infinity> I'll give it another 10m and call it.
[16:10]  * stgraber waves
[16:10] <mdeslaur> hi stgraber
[16:10] <infinity> Three people!
[16:11] <infinity> One more and we can have a meeting.
[16:15]  * infinity twiddles his thumbs.
[16:18]  * mdeslaur falls asleep
[16:18]  * infinity pokes mdeslaur with a stick.
[16:18] <mdeslaur> AAGH!
[16:20] <infinity> #startmeeting Ubuntu Technical Board Meeting
[16:20] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Mar 29 16:20:07 2016 UTC.  The chair is infinity. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:20] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[16:20] <infinity> Quorum not met; agenda carried to April 12.
[16:20] <infinity> #endmeeting
[16:20] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Mar 29 16:20:21 2016 UTC.
[16:20] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting-2/2016/ubuntu-meeting-2.2016-03-29-16.20.moin.txt
[16:20] <infinity> There you go.
[16:20]  * infinity edits der wikken.
[16:20] <mdeslaur> thanks infinity


[12:02] <Kamion> ChrisH: which distribution?
[12:04] <ChrisH> Kamion: sid
[12:04] <ChrisH> Kamion: Perhaps pbuilder/debootstrap are just plain broken atm... (?)
[12:06] <Kamion> there's a bug about that, pppoeconf is broken
[12:06] <Kamion> disallowed dependency change in base system
[12:06] <Kamion> (*ahem* *removes Debian RM hat*)
[12:06] <ChrisH> I have problems with bash depending on passwd which is not there. :(
[12:07] <Kamion> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=285496
[12:07] <Kamion> hm, really?
[12:07] <Kamion> oh, warty
[12:07] <ChrisH> Yes, plain Warty with a local Debian mirror.
[12:07] <Kamion> warty is older than sarge/sid, and in general you must have a version of debootstrap at least as new as the version you're trying to bootstrap
[12:07] <Kamion> try with hoary's debootstrap
[12:08] <Kamion> debootstrap (<IP_ADDRESS>) unstable; urgency=low
[12:08] <Kamion>   * NMU
[12:08] <Kamion>   * add passwd to sid.buildd,sarge.buildd as bash depends on them
[12:08] <Kamion>  -- Junichi Uekawa<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Fri,  9 Jul 2004 09:07:28 +0900
[12:08] <ChrisH> Is warty too old for that? Shouldn't debootstrap get everything from any debian distribution?
[12:08] <Kamion> debootstrap | 0.2.39ubuntu22 |         warty | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
[12:08] <Kamion> no, doesn't work that way I'm afraid
[12:09] <Kamion> debootstrap has a hardcoded list of base packages which needs to be changed from time to time as the distribution changes
[12:11] <siretart> is hoary's bootstrap beeing held uptodate to install all distributions and versions from both ubuntu and debian? are there any drawbacks with installing hoary's debootstrap in a sarge system?
[12:14] <Kamion> we're merging Debian changes into hoary's debootstrap until upstream version freeze in just the same way as we're doing with any other package.
[12:14] <Kamion> installing hoary's debootstrap on sarge should be fine
[12:16] <siretart> ah, ok. thanks for explanation.
[12:37] <Q-FUNK> really nice to see Ubuntu actively support amd64.
[12:37] <Q-FUNK> it's a nice architecture
[12:45] <bluefoxicy> does the formation of a new group have to be cleared with the Technical Board, or can it be recommended directly on the CommunityCouncilAgenda?
[12:46] <bluefoxicy> I'd imagine there's at least some process for this?
[12:47] <sivang> bluefoxicy: which group?
[12:48] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  I'm recommending on the TechnicalBoardAgenda currently to discuss one of the enhancements on the IdeaPool and clear the formation of the ParentalControlGroup or something
[12:48] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  there was an idea to create a "child-friendly" mode which would "disable web" and such
[12:48] <sivang> bluefoxicy: so basically you want to create a new ubuntu community team?
[12:48] <bluefoxicy> I put a bunch of comments under it on the IdeaPool about Squid and Dan'sGuardian
[12:49] <sivang> bluefoxicy: I've read your stuff there :)
[12:49] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  I . . want a new team to be formed :)
[12:49] <Q-FUNK> how queer.
[12:49] <sivang> bluefoxicy: ok, so CC is the address if I'm not mistaken - also country teams and others..
[12:49] <sivang> bluefoxicy: (CommunityCouncil)
[12:50] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  alright.  I'll recommend discussion and *potential* creation of a team.
[12:51] <bluefoxicy> "MastersOfTheUniverse team"  XD
[12:51] <bluefoxicy> too much heman
[12:51] <sivang> bluefoxicy: hehe, I think this has been already discussed and ways are searched to see how to take this further.
[01:04] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  :)
[01:08] <ChrisH> Kamion: You were right. pbuilder works perfectly in Hoary. My misconception... I thought debootstrap was a bit too magic. :)
[01:20] <bluefoxicy> sivang: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[01:22] <sivang> bluefoxicy: interesting. I wonder how much this could make ubuntu attractive to school and orgs.
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> sivang:  websense is dog shit.
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> so I'd say fairly attractive.
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> Jessie used to surf porn all day in school, just hit spanish porno sites :P
[01:23] <smurfix> Gah
[01:24] <bluefoxicy> I think DG has various language support, so it should probably be able to filter unexpected URIs in various languages, instead of just what your administrators have located.
[01:24] <Kamion> by the way, to form a team you should have at least a couple of people interested in doing the work
[01:24] <smurfix> Forgive me for being blunt, but whose stupid idea is that?
[01:25] <Kamion> the team-forming process is not a way to recommend that something should be done
[01:25] <Kamion> it's a way of saying "we want to do this thing, please bless it"
[01:25] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  . . . which is why I was originally aiming at putting that stuff on the tech board agenda page  -.-
[01:25] <bluefoxicy> should i move it?
[01:25] <Kamion> frankly it doesn't really sound appropriate for either body until you have people interested in doing the work
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> Kamion: I'm only suggesting to discuss the idea and determine if it's a worthy endeavor, and if a team should be formed
[01:26] <usual> will gstreamer in hoary support playing dvd's?
[01:26] <Kamion> no, getting interested people is not supposed to be the hard bit
[01:26] <Kamion> do that first
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> I didn't get that part across clear did I?
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  I thought discussing it in CC was how you determined if people were interested in it
[01:27] <Kamion> nope, discussing it in the community at large is how you determine if people are interested in it
[01:27] <Kamion> the CC is only four people
[01:27] <bluefoxicy> smurfix: " A child-friendly option on Ubuntu so parents can turn on/off functionlity + browsing web - LouiseMcCancePrice?"
[01:27] <sivang> Kamion: doesn
[01:27] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  I'm just supplying half the answers :)
[01:28] <sivang> Kamion: doesn't a "member" considered to have voting rights in the CC?
[01:28] <Kamion> no, only voting rights to *appoint* the CC
[01:29] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  should i take this to #ubuntu-users or #ubuntu-devel?
[01:29] <bluefoxicy> or both
[01:29] <Kamion> "Community Council meetings are open to all interested parties, but the Council seeks only to find consensus amongst Council members and representatives from the Team that submitted the proposal."
[01:29] <Kamion> #ubuntu-devel's fine
[01:29] <smurfix> Turning off web browsing is a bit different from implementing a content filter
[01:29] <Kamion> oh, the proposal? I'd suggest posting it on ubuntu-devel@lists and finding people who are interested in working on it
[01:30] <smurfix> The latter, frankly, is NOT something I'd want Ubuntu to have.
[01:30] <sivang> Kamion: ok, so, since I was agreed to become a memebr last CC meeting as per my contribs, what does this entails me?
[01:30] <Kamion> sivang: members elect the community council
[01:30] <sivang> Kamion: ah ok :)
[01:31] <Kamion> there might occasionally be other votes, but (a) I'd hope that would be rare and we can work on the IETF principle of rough consensus and working code and (b) we haven't really laid that down yet
[01:33] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: once you have a set of people interested, you can turn to the CC to make it an official team (which basically means you get to call it "Ubuntu <blah>", and get a bit more credibility in that section of the codebase)
[01:34] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: if there's a technical dispute, or if you think the technical direction of Ubuntu as a whole needs to be modified, you can make a representation to the TB
[01:34] <Kamion> the TB will consult teams if/when issues relevant to those teams come up
[01:34] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  it's modular
[01:35] <bluefoxicy> you could develop this stuff and install Ubuntu with or without it.
[01:35] <Kamion> right, so shouldn't involve a change of technical direction
[01:35] <bluefoxicy> things like the security stuff is more for the TB
[01:35] <bluefoxicy> since that requires major examination and touches everything in the system
[01:36] <Kamion> the TB is also responsible for packaging standards, release goals, and package selection
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> cool
[01:36] <Kamion> although the last of those tends to be handled more informally by the mdz/jdub diumvirate
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> diuwtf/
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> use real words plzkthx
[01:36] <bluefoxicy> :)
[01:36] <Kamion> actually duumvirate
[01:36] <Kamion> see dict
[01:37] <bluefoxicy> "The union of two men"
[01:37] <Kamion> triumvirate is a more common word, for three people in the same office
[01:37] <bluefoxicy> . . . dude stop XD
[01:37] <bluefoxicy> heh
[01:45] <daniels> jdub: ping
[01:45] <daniels> or, even better, Kamion
[01:45] <Kamion> daniels: yep?
 Turning off web browsing is a bit different from implementing a content filter <smurfix> The latter, frankly, is NOT something I'd want Ubuntu to have.
[01:47] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  you'd prefer filter=* instead of filter=*slut*?
[01:48] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  tihs isn't big brother coming to sodomize your ass for having an opinion of your own and liking naked genetalia rubbing together.  It's simple policy.
[01:48] <Kamion> ah, scunthorpe
[01:50] <smurfix> Even hard AI isn't good enough to find out whether any particular parent is going to think a site'd be "harmful" to their kids
[01:50] <Kamion> did PICS basically entirely stop being useful, or what?
[01:50] <smurfix> Teaching responsible internet usage isn't going to be accomplishable with a content filter.
[01:51] <Kamion> (or was it ever useful?)
[01:51] <lifeless> PICS is entirely useful
[01:51] <smurfix> Kamion: Lots of sites don't bother
[01:51] <Kamion> smurfix: personally I think content filters are stupid, but local policy often requires them, and it can be a barrier to acceptance
[01:51] <lifeless> but... the spam-funding|funded sites don't categorise themselves
[01:53] <lifeless> also the referrer-revenue sites, where income != return custom, and is rather based on how many popups they can drive
[01:54] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  i've hit a few issues with DG, but it's really good.
[01:54] <bluefoxicy> i've had it let me into a porn site, but not onto a page that had any questionable content
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> I surfed into a gallery and it was like "WTF NO"
[01:55] <lifeless> does it let you into a breast cancer site ?
[01:55] <smurfix> My issue is that _I_ am responsible for educating my kids how to use the Internet
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  maybe?
[01:55] <Kamion> yeah, false positives are often more the issue than false negatives
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  then don't enable the content filtering.
[01:55] <Kamion> or anything to do with sex education
[01:55] <smurfix> I am not going to fend that off to some sort of program, and neither am I willing to facilitate anybody else to do so, because I think it's ultimately harmful.
[01:55] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  find me a breast cancer site
[01:56] <Kamion> or, as previously mentioned, Scunthorpe :-)
[01:56] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: google for it.
[01:56] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you so should be able to find that yourself.
[01:56] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  you don't just tell children not to look at porno
[01:56] <bluefoxicy> they get curious
[01:56] <Kamion> smurfix: bluefoxicy has said that he was opposed to it being on by default ...
[01:56] <lifeless> I mean, imagine you are in school, studying cancer.
[01:56] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: So what?
[01:56] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  "My 9 year old daughter ordered a double ended anal probe from cumfucking.com"
[01:57] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: (they can do the same thing without using the internet, if they find a dodgy magazine under dad's bed)
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> yeah
[01:58] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: and ? - see Kamions answer, and the fact they won't have a clue what it really is - or if they do have a clue, the internet is /not/ the problem.
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> but dad usually locks those in the closet
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  I got most of my clues from the internet
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> :)
[01:58] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: Nice of her. Explain to her that she shouldn't do that on multiple grounds, none of which have anything to do with sex, and take away net access for a few.
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> the whole bdsm-s&m thing you know
[01:58] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: what does a d-e-a-p have to do with bdsm/s&m ?
[01:58] <bluefoxicy> you think I know what a buttplug is or what clover clips are or what a ring gag was designed for because they had those in school?
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> d-e-a-p?
[01:59] <lifeless> double-ended...
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> oh
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> nothing
[01:59] <Kamion> I think good parenting is kind of orthogonal to whether some people will demand content filtering regardless of whether it's a good idea or not, TBH
[01:59] <bluefoxicy> it was something from something else
[01:59] <smurfix> Kamion: The problem is that too many people are willing to use one as a substitute for the other.
[02:00] <Kamion> and I'm not sure Ubuntu is necessarily in the business of deciding what good parenting is
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> ok DG won't let me google breast cancer
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  yeah but look on the other end
[02:00] <smurfix> ... and I don't want to facilitate that.
[02:00] <lifeless> (old man mode) - when I was in school, there was no internet, but buttplugs & ring gags were openly discussed by the students.
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> you wouldn't use it even if it was there
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> but most parents who would use it already have a problem
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> either A) They're too lazy to deal with their kids, or B) they simply don't have time, or C) they don't know how.
[02:00] <lifeless> and TBH, with enough ignorance and stupidity, *more* education would have been a Good Thing.
[02:00] <Kamion> if it's there, at least you can file bugs on the filtering to make it less stupid
[02:00] <bluefoxicy> in any of those cases or any combination thereof, they'd let them get whatever the hell they want
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> you don't think that I'm gonna do my work just because you don't give me a way to push it off on someone else do you?
[02:01] <Kamion> and it's better than having people resort to a closed-source filter, where the company filters out sites run by people they don't like and won't tell you why.
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> I just won't do it.
[02:01] <lifeless> far too much is blamed on the net these days.
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> and
[02:01] <lifeless> Kamion: penguinfeet.org
[02:01] <bluefoxicy> there are other reasons beyond parenting.
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> It's not your place to decide that "What most people think is inappropriate should be up to the child to avoid" etc etc for one
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> schools for example must follow a certain metric
[02:02] <Kamion> lifeless: indeed, but if we select the least bad then we can try to keep it the least bad and have it be the thing people pick first, *if* they decide that they want something like that
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> a 6 year old can surf porno when he gets home if his parents don't do anything about it; but if the school lets him do it, and the parents don't approve, BAM
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> $50,000,000 lawsuit
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> taxpayers' money out the ass
[02:02] <Kamion> it's not so much making the world better as trying to stave off the worst of the crap that's going to be flowing in anyway
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> taxes go up
[02:02] <bluefoxicy> school quality goes down
[02:03] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: the parents chose a bad school.
[02:03] <bluefoxicy> next generation becomes stupider than this one.
[02:03] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  and who chose to not give the school the tools they need to make themselves a good school?
[02:04] <lifeless> Kamion: not arguing against cf/domain blocking. Swelltech sell filtering to school, and did before I became fulltime @ Canonical.
[02:04] <lifeless> *schools*
[02:04] <bluefoxicy> then there's businesses
[02:04] <bluefoxicy> ever seen someone sue a business for stupd reasons?
[02:04] <bluefoxicy> . . . "Eenie meenie moinie moe" . .  . . .
[02:05] <bluefoxicy> how much you wanna bet what's on the next coworker's screen can get your business sued for several hundred thousand if not a few milion?
[02:05] <lifeless> there is a big difference between collaborative database based blocking - which penguinfeet.org enables - or cerberian - and heuristic AI filtering such as dansguardian.
[02:05] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: how did you go with your breast cancer search ?
[02:05] <smurfix> lifeless: I agree
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  google got blocked.  :/
[02:06] <Kamion> lifeless: (razor versus spamassassin? :-))
[02:06] <Kamion> or maybe razor versus bogofilter
[02:06] <lifeless> Kamion: in a nutshell, yes. tried to get a email-report on viagra past spamassassin ?
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  yeah, colaborative database based blocking is inadequate and reacts to "uh oh somebody got something they shouldn't have, 'damage' done"
[02:06] <Kamion> nope, but I can imagine
[02:06] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you just missed the point.
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> while DG and heuristics react to "oops.    I'll unfilter that."
[02:06] <bluefoxicy> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel/2840
[02:07] <Kamion> lifeless: on the other hand I've been on the receiving end of a server being inappropriately blocked by RBLs *shrug*
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  No, I don't think I did.
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> you're complaining about filtering things that are harmless
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> which is a "fail-unsafe"
[02:07] <lifeless> Kamion: is razor a single-report blocker? or do they need confirmation/review ?
[02:07] <bluefoxicy> while I'm complaining about failing to filter things that are indeed against policy
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> er.
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> that's a fail-unsafe
[02:08] <Kamion> uh, I don't think it was razor as such, and I don't remember what razor's policy is
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> the other is a fail-safe
[02:08] <lifeless> Kamion: ok.
[02:08] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: um, that depends what "unsafe" means; as lifeless' cancer example demonstrates, the desired failure mode is variable
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> if you can easily correct the situation with no lasting effects it's a fail safe.  If policy is violated in an irrevocable way it's a fail-unsafe.
[02:09] <lifeless> well, can I suggest that if a content reviewing team is being established, that it works with an existing team - such as penguinfeet.org - rather than inventing a wheel from scratch.
[02:09] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  Yes and i believe that the desired failure mode for most people who would actually enable this stuff is going to be fail-safe, i.e. block things that shouldn't be blocked
[02:09] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: that sounds like a coded way of saying "false positives don't matter"
[02:09] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  no, false positives matter, but can be corrected
[02:09] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: Unblocking isn't always that easy.
[02:09] <bluefoxicy> false negatives however expose content which you wanted filtered, which you can't undo
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> once you've seen it you can't un-see it.
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> for example, you hit goatse.cx
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> and decide that that should be filtered.
[02:10] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: fail-safe == 'I failed my assignment because I couldn't look up X' or fail-safe == 'my daughter saw a page which meant nothing to her, once'.
[02:10] <Kamion> I think any content reviewing team ought to conduct a survey of the available technologies and pick either one or a combination of the most appropriate
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> now how do you clense the image of this guy's wide open ass from your brain.
[02:10] <Kamion> I certainly don't think they should be writing a content filter from scratch; that's been done
[02:11] <Kamion> they might want to optionally glue a couple together, and work with the relevant upstreams
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  "My daughter saw a page with some girl sucking som eguy's dick. . . jimmy's mom called me up the next day. . . uhhh. . . "
[02:11] <lifeless> Kamion: of course not.. but I'm not talking technology.
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> "I explained it to her and told her not to until she was like, older. . . but she didn't listen. . . "
[02:11] <Kamion> bluefoxicy: although images != text to some extent here
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  true, but normally images are associated with text
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> you'd expect to find porno on a porn site yes?  :)
[02:12] <smurfix> Trying to solve social problems with technology is no fun.
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  of course it isn't.
[02:12] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: my god, you've got a low opinion of your daughter. in one shot, you're saying that shes sexually promiscuous, knows enough of whats going on that seeing a photo of a blowjob is all it takes to tip her over the edge..!!
[02:12] <Kamion> lifeless: a content filtering team needs to talk technology though, and the people they choose to work with will be selected depending on what seems to be best
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  but then again, you can't really explain a social problem can you :)
[02:12] <smurfix> ... and I'd rather not start down that road in the first place.
[02:12] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  I don't have a daughter.
[02:13] <smurfix> Well, I do. (More than one, in fact.)
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  I'm just saying children are curious and do not have a full grasp on these things
[02:13] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you can't have it both ways.
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> and most parents I don't expect to actually go through this with their kids.
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> I understand cause and effect fairly well, considering I find it thrilling when i can manipulate somebody's thoughts and actions just by nudging them around
[02:14] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: "cause and effect" is not nearly as simple
[02:14] <Kamion> children are naturally sexually curious with or without the internet (if it weren't that, it'd be playground talk and swapped magazines), it's just a matter of what people blame
[02:14] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: well, in your 'fail safe' mode, standard spammer tactics will get past text, and from what I recall image recognition is still pretty hit and miss. I'm damn sure I can make pages that you'd consider 'unsafe' that dansguardian will miss.
[02:14] <smurfix> Young people *have* on occasion been looking at rotten.com with no lasting ill effect
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  yeah, intentionally I bet you can
[02:15] <Kamion> I think we need to recognise that content filters have no chance whatsoever of saving the world or children's souls; they're filling a demand, pure and simple.
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> Kamion:  yes
[02:15] <Kamion> And talk about how dreadful life would be without content filters inevitably misses the point.
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> which is primarily my concern in the first place, why the hell am i arguing about children
[02:15] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: if many folk use dansguardian, the folk that are a problem (that is primarily non-PICS advertising based sites) will resort to such tactics to get their sites past the filters.
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> I've never used a damn content filter seriously, just poked with 'em.
[02:15] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: you started it ... you explain it
[02:16] <lifeless> the same as happens with spam.
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> smurfix:  i'm confused already
[02:16] <lifeless> Kamion: full ack.
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> I didn't enter this conversation with a constructed argument
[02:16] <smurfix> bluefoxicy: Good for you.
[02:16] <Kamion> anyway, night all
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> not about children anyway
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> more about business
[02:16] <lifeless> Kamion: night.
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel/2840
[02:17] <lifeless> bluefoxicy: you posted that before.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> did you read it?
[02:17] <lifeless> yes.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> ok then
[02:17] <lifeless> its largely orthogonal to the discussion here.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> be.cause that's about all I intended to say.
[02:17] <bluefoxicy> orthagonal
[02:18] <bluefoxicy> orthogonal
[02:18] <bluefoxicy> what the hell does geometry have to do with coherant thought
[02:18] <bluefoxicy> ugh
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> I told dad to get me beef lo mein
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> and he got me beef and vegetable lo mein or something
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> my stomach hurts  x.x
[02:32] <crimsun> bluefoxicy: the other major definition of 'orthogonal' :)
[02:53] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  <@MadMethod> or... say that part of teaching responcibilty is keeping tabs on your children so that you can punish them thusly when they disobey.. dansguardian is capable of only logging naughty sites and not expliticly blocking
[02:54] <bluefoxicy> lifeless:  does that work for you then?  :o
[06:03] <thully> hi - does anyone know if Ubuntu does any special detection during the install to enable subpixel for LCDs?
[06:04] <chrisa> By that do you mean subpixel rendering?
[06:04] <thully> yes
[06:05] <thully> I wondered what exactly it did to get the fonts how they are - hoary in particular, as for some reason hoary's fonts are superior to warty's
[06:11] <crimsun> thully: X.Org's truetype module is more current; fontconfig is also configured differently, I presume.
[06:11] <thully> so, is subpixel being enabled by default?  If so, for all machines or for only a few?
[06:12] <crimsun> I haven't looked at the dexconf logic; daniels probably knows better.
[06:15] <thully> IS this Ubuntu-specific, or is it in debian as well?
[06:18] <crimsun> I presume it's currently matched for Ubuntu but easily set for Debian.
[06:23] <daniels> xtt is deprecated in favour of freetype2
[06:23] <crimsun> daniels: so just load "freetype", correct?
[06:26] <daniels> crimsun: yeah
[06:26] <thully> I'm wondering specifically if subpixel rendering is ever used in Ubuntu, and if so what triggers it's use
[06:26] <crimsun> daniels: thanks.
[06:28] <chrisa> thully: dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig, or check /etc/fonts/fonts.conf
[06:28] <chrisa> make that local.conf
[06:29] <thully> I've looked there - see nothing of subpixel being used under any circumstances - is it ever used in Ubuntu
[06:30] <thully> when? under what circumstances?
[06:34] <crimsun> give me 3 minutes to walk to another lab and I'll see.
[06:38] <crimsun> well, upon inspection of local.conf on a machine that was upgraded from warty->hoary, neither subpixel nor autohinting are enabled
[06:39] <crimsun> thully: did you upgrade to or install hoary directly?
[06:39] <bluefoxicy> mmm autohinting
[06:39] <thully> no - I installed hoary directly
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> 5/3 3 5|
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> nice.
[06:40] <crimsun> welp, I suppose that leaves us with "it's enabled if the user runs dpkg-reconfigure"
[06:40] <thully> so, in other words - it's not enabled by default?
[06:41] <crimsun> not that I can see on my upgraded machines
[06:41] <thully> Because, I installed hoary clean on a laptop and had clean fonts with no miscoloring by defaultn
[06:42] <daniels> i believe sub-pixel hinting is enabled per default
[06:43] <daniels> on laptops
[06:43] <daniels> but I could be wrong.
[06:43] <thully> I wonder how it is done, though?
[06:43] <daniels> what do you mean?
[06:43] <fabbione> morning
[06:43] <thully> how is it detected
[06:44] <daniels> thully: laptop-detect
[06:44] <thully> I wonder if it is 1)run laptop-detect 2) if is a laptop is true, install local.conf w/subpixel, etc 3) if laptop is not true, do nothing
[06:44] <daniels> that's certainly how it used to work
[06:44] <thully> how does it work now?
[06:45] <daniels> yes, that is exactly how it still works
[06:46] <thully> OK - thanks
[06:47] <thully> One more question - I think I'm not going to continue running hoary, but I've reported some bugs involving hoary.  How do I make it clear on these bugs that I can't provide further feedback?
[06:47] <fabbione> daniels: back in au?
[06:54] <daniels> fabbione: yo dude, yeah
[06:54] <daniels> fabbione: how's things?
[06:54] <fabbione> daniels: could be better
[06:55] <crimsun> feeling better, fabbione?
[06:55] <fabbione> crimsun: yeah
[06:55] <crimsun> excellent.
[06:55] <fabbione> i think i am just getting older
[06:55] <fabbione> yesterday i woke up that i couldn't move my neck at all
[06:55] <crimsun> damn
[06:55] <fabbione> today is a bit better
[06:56] <crimsun> :)  let's hope for a speed recovery
[06:56] <fabbione> well yeah
[06:56] <fabbione> i am tired of spending my time in bed
[06:57] <crimsun> I can imagine that would become old rather quickly
[06:57] <crimsun> got wireless?
[06:57] <fabbione> yeah
[06:57] <daniels> fabbione: ugh :\ yeah, hope you get better soon
[06:57] <fabbione> daniels: it sucks to be me :-)
[07:18] <fabbione> daniels: are you up to prepare a new l-k-r-m for 2.6.10 (tomorrow.. not now ;))
[07:20] <daniels> fabbione: yeah, sure
[07:21] <fabbione> afaik 6629 from nvidia doesn't build on 2.6.10
[07:21] <fabbione> so they will never be done ;)
[07:21] <fabbione> ops
[07:24] <crimsun> this url is useful then: http://sh.nu/t/5hucy
[07:24] <crimsun> (RE: Nvidia & 2.6.10)
[07:41] <daniels> heh
[07:41] <daniels> cheers :)
[07:41] <crimsun> :)
[02:00] <daniels> seeeeeebbbbbbbb
[02:11] <sjoerd> poor seb
[02:17] <Treenaks> sjoerd: he deserves it ;)
[02:18] <sjoerd> watch out of you might deserve the ``wrath of seb'' in the future :)
[02:38] <fabbione> don't even think about touching our seb!
[02:38] <fabbione> or you will be damned forever
[02:41] <daniels> i just want to bitch at him about gtk :)
[02:41] <fabbione> oh you mean that kernel core dump?
[02:41] <fabbione> yeah it has to be a gtk bug
[02:41] <daniels> clearly :)
[02:41] <fabbione> actually
[02:42] <fabbione> there is a gtk bug in the kernel :-)
[02:42] <fabbione> #5029
[02:42] <fabbione> = segfault
[03:08] <mjg59> daniels: Is there any sane way to hook xresconf into the thing that munges the video BIOS for i855 systems with weird layouts?
[03:18] <fabbione> hey mjg59
[03:20] <mjg59> Hi
[04:38] <daniels> mjg59: 855patch/855wrap/whatever?  dunno
[04:40] <mjg59> daniels: What happens if you run xresprobe on one of those machines?
[04:54] <bob2`> apache2 sucks because it gets very confused by large files
[04:54] <bob2`> that is all
[05:01] <daniels> mjg59: it will report the size of the panel
[05:01] <daniels> mjg59: afaik
[05:01] <daniels> mjg59: or maybe it will just report 1024x768
[05:01] <daniels> i actually don't know
[05:01] <daniels> does anyone here own a machine with one of the wacky 16:9 LCDs?
[05:03] <mjg59> edd has one
[05:04] <mjg59> It needs to be one of the ones without the native resolution in the BIOS, though
[05:04] <bob2`> does the livecd have whatever tool you need said 16:9 owner to run?
[05:07] <daniels> mjg59: yeah
[05:07] <daniels> bob2: nope, just xresprobe; it's an install system thing
[05:09] <bob2`> ah, dang
[05:09] <mjg59> Problem is, we need to run the 855resolution thing on resume
[05:10] <mjg59> And it would be nice if it could be run in install, too
[05:10] <bob2`> hrm, evolution doesn't actually seem to let you specify a port for an imap server
[05:11] <mjg59> Put :foo after the hostname
[05:11] <bob2`> tried that, seems to not be able to connect
[05:11] <mjg59> Hrm. Weird.
[05:13] <bob2`> ah, my fault
[05:30] <trulux> hey pitti
[05:32] <daniels> mjg59: oh christ
[05:32] <daniels> mjg59: this is why I hate 855*
[05:33] <daniels> mjg59: problem is, which one to run and with which options is utterly indeterminate
[05:33] <pitti> Hi trulux
[05:34] <pitti> trulux: btw, I'm currently compiling 2.6.10-grsecurity :-)
[05:36] <trulux> pitti, nice
[05:44] <sladen> Riddell: libretto...  mmm,
[05:45] <sladen> Riddell: 800x480, trouble is, the in-chipset magic describes the LCD as being 800x600
[05:47] <daniels> sladen: oooh.  so xresprobe i810 reports it being as 800x600?
[05:48] <sladen> it's a neomagic.  Haven't tried it recently---it's in London and I'm in Nottingham
[05:48] <daniels> ahr, neomagic
[05:49] <sladen> daniels: lack of anything except PCMCIA and no PXE makes installing Ubuntu somewhat fun
[05:49] <daniels> heh, whoops.
[05:49] <sladen> daniels: what happened to your leet bootspeed magic.  I'm playing with ACPI and the continual rebooting-after-lockup could do with a speed boost
[05:50] <daniels> sladen: the xorg stuff is in there, gdm is waiting for me to return from holiday
[05:50] <daniels> anyway, got to run now
[05:50] <daniels> bbl
[05:55] <mjg59> daniels: The alternative is to package 855resolution, add a config file somewhere, get users to configure it manually and then use that on the resume pathway
[05:55] <daniels> mjg59: true.  i could do that.
[05:56] <daniels> maybe I could package it with vbetool ;)
[05:56] <Treenaks> #2312 even
[05:57] <mjg59> Treenaks: Are you sure the card supports channel 13?
[05:57] <mjg59> Sounds like a firmware issue rather than a driver one
[05:57] <Treenaks> mjg59: yes
[05:57] <Treenaks> mjg59: in windows the same card works fine (someone else's machine)
[05:58] <Treenaks> mjg59: also, it shows up on scans
[05:58] <mjg59> Ah. Possibly the included firmware won't work on channel 13?
[05:58] <Treenaks> US vs EU firmware?
[05:58] <mjg59> It could be european firmware
[05:58] <mjg59> Yeah
[05:58] <Treenaks> hm
[05:58] <Treenaks> that'd suck :)
[05:58] <Keybuk> isn't EU firmware the one that works on more channels?
[05:58] <mjg59> It might be possible to extract the firmware from the windows drivers
[05:59] <Treenaks> Keybuk: EU has 2 more channels (12, 13)
[05:59] <Treenaks> it works fine on my other (atmel_cs) card
[05:59] <Treenaks> (by that card needs an iwpriv call)
[05:59] <Keybuk> yeah, sounds right; I remember a friend having an EU AP and wondering why his card couldn't see it (wrong channel)
[05:59] <Treenaks> by=but
[06:01] <Treenaks> yay.. more people with the bug: http://prism54.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=652
[06:21] <mako> jdub: for you: http://mako.yukidoke.org/copyrighteous/reflections/20050102-00
[06:47] <sladen> mjg59: can you add to your wishlist, turning the fans up to maximum during hibernate (to get rid of excess heat)
[06:51] <Keybuk> any particular reason?
[07:01] <pitti> seb128: Hi, happy new year 2005!
[07:01] <seb128> hey ! Happy new year :)
[07:01] <pitti> seb128: btw, do you have any idea why the clock applet crashes and doesn't start any more?
[07:02] <seb128> could you start /usr/lib/gnome-panel/clock-applet in a gt
[07:02] <seb128> then add the applet to the panel
[07:02] <seb128> and look on the log in the gt
[07:02] <pitti> ah
[07:02] <pitti> /usr/lib/gnome-panel/clock-applet: error while loading shared libraries: libplds4.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[07:02] <seb128> that's it :)
[07:02] <pitti> seb128: a dependency problem?
[07:02] <seb128> mozilla-firefox: /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/libplds4.so
[07:02] <seb128> hum
[07:03] <seb128> WTF
[07:03] <pitti> /usr/lib/openoffice/program/libplds4.so
[07:03] <seb128> libnspr4: /usr/lib/libplds4.so
[07:03] <_rene_> and mozilla should have too
[07:03] <pitti> seb128: I don't have this package
[07:03] <seb128> install libnspr4 ?
[07:03] <pitti> seb128: that should be a dependency then
[07:03] <seb128> yep
[07:03] <pitti> seb128: I use to keep my system clean with deborphan :-)
[07:04] <seb128> dunno why it's not automagically added
[07:04] <pitti> seb128: shall I file a bug?
[07:04] <_rene_> because it has no shlibs beacause its versioning is broken I guess
[07:04] <seb128> $ ldd /usr/lib/gnome-panel/clock-applet | grep libplds4
[07:04] <seb128>         libplds4.so => /usr/lib/libplds4.so (0xb72e2000)
[07:05] <pitti> seb128: btw, what does it do with the netscape library anyway? sounds a bit odd...
[07:05] <seb128> _rene_: ? I thought it was doing a ldd and a query on each dep to know the Depends
[07:05] <_rene_> seb128: yes, and what does it do when there's no .shlibs?
[07:05] <_rene_> seb128: just add it?
[07:05] <pitti> I think it uses shlibs files
[07:05] <seb128> pitti: good question, let me ask
[07:06] <seb128> _rene_: why does it need a shlibs ? I mean ldd, dpkg -S ... no need of a shlib to get this
[07:06] <_rene_> dpkg-shlibdeps gets its infos from .shlibs
[07:06] <_rene_> no idea what it does if there isn't one
[07:07] <pitti> seb128: installing the package helps btw, clock works again. thanks
[07:07] <_rene_> and since libnspr4 is a mozilla library it is broken
[07:07] <_rene_> not correctly versioned, yada, yada
[07:07] <pitti> seb128, _rene_: it uses shlibs file to get the package version dependency right
[07:07] <pitti> seb128, _rene_: ldd does not tell you which version of a library package you have to depend on
[07:08] <seb128> yeah, but no version should -> no versionned depends
[07:08] <seb128> but still a depends
[07:09] <seb128> BTW that's probably a depends due to evolution-data-server
[07:10] <seb128> pitti: please fill a bug as reminder, thanks
[07:11] <pitti> seb128: I'll do
[07:14] <pitti> seb128: #5135
[07:14] <seb128> ok
[09:21] <sivang> we are polishing some build and source files so it would be good to know...
[10:50] <wasabi_> So, I was pondering ways to deploy do corporate deployment of updates with Ubuntu... in a nice, UI, PHB friendly manner.
[10:50] <wasabi_> s/do//
[10:50] <wasabi_> actually that entire sentence sucks.
[10:51] <wasabi_> Do most people just make their own archive mirror, and copy packages from main over into it as they are 'tested'?
[10:51] <wasabi_> Sounds like a waste of space. =(
[10:53] <trulux> pitti, SELinux is now updated for 2.4.28
[10:53] <trulux> i've backported it
[10:53] <trulux> ;-)
[10:54] <wasabi> so who knows a lot about apt authentication?
[10:55] <pitti> wasabi: mvo
[10:55] <pitti> wasabi: and mdz
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: nice
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: so you enhanced your kernel hack skills now? :-)
[10:56] <trulux> pitti, seems working out-the-box
[10:56] <trulux> a bit ;D
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: I still compile my third grsec attempt
[10:56] <trulux> what's up with it?
[10:56] <pitti> trulux: my previous package does not work really good
[10:56] <trulux> tell me about it
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: I compiled in chroot restrictions, but that gives a lot of errors
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: I think that it clashes with the initrd
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: because the initrd chroots the actual system (I suppose)
[10:57] <pitti> trulux: I get a lot of "linking foo to bar denied" errors
[10:58] <pitti> trulux: and the framebuffer does not work (normal vga works, however)
[10:58] <trulux> umm, have you enabled linking restrictions? fifo restrictions? symlink-hardlink restrictions?
[10:59] <trulux> pitti, tell me the steps to reproduce it
[10:59] <trulux> i would try to test my new skills ;)
[10:59] <pitti> I disabled linking restrictions again in the 2nd attempt, but that did not help
[10:59] <pitti> I still have fifo
[11:00] <pitti> now I completely disabled chroot restrictions for testing
[11:00] <pitti> if that still does not work, I will cry out for help :-)
[11:00] <trulux> ok
[11:00] <pitti> probably I will just drop the initrd, I don't like initrds anyway
[11:00] <trulux> i'm preparing the tissues
[11:00] <trulux> initrd sux
[11:01] <pitti> my very first custom kernel (without initrd) works perfectly
[11:01] <pitti> even with linking restrictions
[11:01] <wasabi> am i the only one who thinks initrd is badass?
[11:01] <pitti> so I suppose the initrd's chrooting makes trouble
[11:01] <tseng> there are issues with the currecnt 2.6.10 pax rcs and smp
[11:01] <pitti> wasabi: no, I don't like it either
[11:01] <crimsun> wasabi: I like them. I used to despise them.
[11:01] <wasabi> bad ass = good
[11:02] <pitti> wasabi: oh, sorry
[11:02] <tseng> just fyi.
[11:02] <trulux> pitti, it's quite possible
[11:02] <pitti> wasabi: what is good about an initrd?
[11:02] <wasabi> I think it's a very elegant way to solve the problem... actually.
[11:02] <pitti> wasabi: which problem?
[11:02] <wasabi> dynamic kernel modules for automatically detected devices.
[11:02] <wasabi> like, my raid card.
[11:02] <trulux> tseng, like openbsd smp ones?
[11:03] <tseng> trulux: ...
[11:03] <trulux> i was kjust joking
[11:03] <trulux> no net-offense
[11:03] <trulux> :D
[11:03] <tseng> tere is a pax bug with kernexec on smp in the 2.6.10 patches, has 0 to do with openbsd or their immature smp support
[11:04] <wasabi> pitti, it allows for the (not yet used apparently) scenario of third party ISV's distributing kernel modules for impoirtant boot devices (raid cards) without recompiling the kernel.
[11:04] <pitti> wasabi: hmm, okay
[11:04] <pitti> wasabi: for me it only loads the relevant root fs driver
[11:04] <wasabi> What if your root fs driver wasn't in Linus' tree
[11:05] <pitti> wasabi: but root fs drivers (including raid) can just be compiled in statically, not?
[11:05] <pitti> wasabi: yes, that's a point
[11:05] <wasabi> Well, that's the scenario I just laid out. WHen you can't compile it in.
[11:05] <wasabi> Like, you know, every other OS in the world.
[11:05] <wasabi> Windows, OS X, etc.
[11:05] <wasabi> We've done pretty well not worrying about that so far though.
[11:08] <wasabi> Anyway, the ISV simply has to package his module up, provide a .deb for it, that rebuilds the initrd.
[11:09] <wasabi> Of course, that's impossible for other reasons. :0  (no stable module interface)
[11:23] <pitti> Hi mdz_!
[11:24] <trulux> hey mdz_
[11:29] <mdz_> good morning
[11:30] <seb128> hello mdz
[11:30] <lifeless> morning y'all
[11:33] <wasabi> i think i found my killer mono app. muhaha.
[11:36] <pitti> lifeless: buhuu! Do you have a minute to help me with a baz problem?
[11:37] <pitti> $ baz commit
[11:37] <pitti> arch_commit: unable to acquire revision lock (internal error in archive-pfs.c(pfs_lock_revision))
[11:37] <pitti> $ baz lock-revision -b<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:37] <pitti> lock-revision: illegal lock state for<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:37] <pitti>   consult an admin or arch expert (this shouldn't happen)
[11:37] <lifeless> funky cool.
[11:38] <lifeless> try
[11:38] <pitti> lifeless: there is no ++lock-revision directory in the archive
[11:38] <lifeless> oh, someone was fiddling then.
[11:38] <lifeless> probably someone committed a patch 3 and manually removed it.
[11:38] <pitti> only a directory<EMAIL_ADDRESS>in the version directory (not in a patch-XX dir)
[11:38] <Keybuk> right, I've had a bottle of nice wine, time to play with dpkg :o)
[11:38] <lifeless> oh, ok thats alright then.
[11:39] <lifeless> still unusual.
[11:39] <Keybuk> wasabi: which?
[11:39] <lifeless> mv<EMAIL_ADDRESS>to patch-2/++revision-lock
[11:39] <wasabi> Keybuk, making it.
[11:39] <pitti> lifeless: done; now: arch_commit: unable to acquire revision lock (lock held or revision already committed)
[11:40] <wasabi> Keybuk, an XSP application to partially mirror an apt repository, allowing the admin to approve or disprove specific updates.
[11:40] <pitti> lifeless: again, this ++revision-lock-held--patch2... dir was created again
[11:40] <wasabi> With a pretty interface and stuff.
[11:40] <lifeless> pitti: check the permissions
[11:40] <lifeless> do you have the ability to mkdir patch-3 ?
[11:40] <Keybuk> wasabi: oh right; mine's tomboy
[11:40] <pitti> lifeless: the moved dir in patch-2 was removed entirely
[11:41] <mdz_> mjg59: what is supposed to happen with the clock when restoring from swsusp?
[11:41] <pitti> lifeless: yes
[11:41] <mdz_> on my T42 it seems to be the same as when it went to sleep, and needs to be reset
[11:41] <lifeless> pitti: actually it was renamed into the ++revision-held--...
[11:41] <lifeless> pitti: ok, lets clean this up to be 100% sure.
[11:41] <lifeless> remove the ++revision-lock-held dir tree
[11:41] <pitti> I removed patch-3 again
[11:41] <pitti> done
[11:42] <lifeless> mkdir a ++revision-lock dir under patch-2, mod 755
[11:42] <lifeless> under that, make a +contents dir, mod 755
[11:43] <pitti> done
[11:43] <lifeless> is this local or on alioth ?
[11:43] <pitti> costa :-)
[11:43] <pitti> yes, alioth
[11:43] <lifeless> yah yah.
[11:43] <lifeless> ok, so you have an sftp registration for the archive ...
[11:44] <pitti> yep
[11:44] <lifeless> do you have a revision library? and do you have an arch cache ?
[11:44] <pitti> neither
[11:44] <lifeless> ok.
[11:44] <lifeless> in your working tree, ls {arch}/++pristine-trees
[11:44] <pitti> I just committed into the 7.4 archive, that worked fine, bTW
[11:44] <pitti> this is the 8.0 branch
[11:44] <pitti> martin@donald:~/debian/psql8$ ls \{arch\}/++pristine-trees/
[11:44] <pitti> unlocked
[11:45] <lifeless> ls unlocked
[11:45] <pitti> $ ls<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:45] <pitti> {arch}  postgresql8.0-7.9+8.0.0rc2
[11:45] <pitti> (always just one dir below unlocked and further)
[11:46] <lifeless> ok.
[11:46] <lifeless> try the commit again.
[11:47] <pitti> lifeless: worked fine now
[11:47] <pitti> lifeless: now patch-3 exists and has a ++revisoin-lock subdir
[11:48] <pitti> lifeless: so somehow it used the other lock directory method?
[11:48] <lifeless> would love to know how it got wedged
[11:48] <lifeless> there is no other lock directory method..
[11:48] <pitti> I did not touch the repo recently
[11:48] <lifeless> pitti: I believe you.
[11:48] <pitti> and there is no sign that oliver did
[11:49] <pitti> however, I recently moved around some stuff
[11:49] <pitti> well, if I ever encounter it again, I tar it up
[11:49] <lifeless> that would be great.
[11:49] <pitti> cool, thanks
[11:49] <pitti> I will test my new grsec kernel now and go to bed then
[11:50] <pitti> Have a good night everybody!
[11:50] <lifeless> np. have fun
[11:50] <zul> night pitti
[11:54] <trulux> pitti, it's urgent for me to find a good docbook wysiwyg editor, any idea?
[11:54] <pitti> no idea
[11:54] <lifeless> conglomerate
[11:55] <zul> trulux: http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookAuthoringTools
[11:56] <trulux> zul, thanks
[11:56] <zul> np
[11:59] <trulux> zul, Lyx looks weird on my ubuntu warty
[11:59] <zul> trulux: havent tried it
[12:00] <zul> been fighting to re-install my system all weekend
[12:01] <trulux> :( sounds worst than having weird-looking fonts in Latex docs
[12:01] <trulux> i'm installing a few xft fonts for lyx
[12:02] <zul> yeah gave wife old hard drive bought shiny new hard drive for me


[06:58] <sub526> Hi all, I’m having two identical Linux x86_64 systems with different Ubuntu kernel versions. The 1st one has Ubuntu 16.04.4 LTS kernel and the 2nd systems has Ubuntu 18.04.4 LTSkernel. I see that, the older distro version kernel(Ubuntu 16.04.4 LTS) is bit faster compared to the system with later version(Ubuntu 18.04.4 LTS). perf bench sched
[06:58] <sub526> messaging -g 64 resulted "Total time: 2.838 [sec]" in older Ubuntu version whereas in other machine "Total time: 9.834 [sec]". Also, time taken to load the driver(insmod) also varies between two systems. What is best way to debug and solve this issue?
[07:20] <sub526> Ubuntu 16.04 machine has 4.4.0-66-generic kernel and Ubuntu 18.04 machine has 4.15.0-91-generic


[00:54] <lfaraone> If the same package has a different name in Debian and Ubuntu, and it has no rdepends, do I need a FFe to rename it?
[00:54] <lfaraone> (rename it from its Ubuntu to Debian version)
[00:56] <micahg> lfaraone: rename?  wouldn't you just add conflicts/replaces in the debian package on teh ubuntu one and drop the ubuntu one?
[00:56] <persia> No, but you *do* need to have transition packages to handle that, for upgrades from all supported upgrade paths (for maverick, only lucid, which makes this easy)
[00:56] <persia> micahg, No.  That breaks upgrades.
[00:56] <micahg> persia: oh, right...
[00:57] <persia> lfaraone, And given that this would hit NEW, you would benefit from an FFe to ease the discussion with the archive-admin.
[00:57]  * micahg should know already
[00:57] <persia> But don't be surprised if the release team decides to ignore/reject the FFE (not refuse, just say "pointless"), as adding transition support packages isn't technically a new feature.
[00:58] <lfaraone> persia: mk. right now we have sugar-pollbuilder-activity 26+git20100521.d4def0b6-0ubuntu1 in Ubuntu. In Debian, we have sugar-poll-activity 26+git20100521.d4def0b6-1, which is *identical* to the Ubuntu version.
[00:59]  * persia doesn't even want to think about how that happened
[00:59] <persia> Did Ubuntu already sync that from Debian?
[00:59] <lfaraone> persia: we intend to just call it -poll- going forward. Should we go ahead and make the change now? (it was in hardy and lucid under the old name, so we're going to have to carry a delta forward until the next LTS)
[00:59] <lfaraone> persia: well, identical other than having a different release number.
[01:00] <persia> Since sugar-poll-activity isn't in Ubuntu yet, I'd do it in natty (since you have to carry to next LTS anyway)
[01:00] <persia> Easier, and less fuss.
[01:02] <persia> Otherwise, you need 1) an FFe for NEW of sugar-poll-activity, 2) a transition package (creating Ubuntu/Debian delta for debian/control, which requires messing with control.in or manual munging), 3) some significant discussion with the currently fairly busy release managers and archive-admins about getting your packages sorted, and 4) a removal for sugar-pollbuilder-activity
[01:02] <persia> For natty, you just need 2)
[01:03] <persia> (unless you want to introduce a dummy transitional package in Debian, but it is useless there)
[01:03] <micahg> and 4 :)
[01:03] <persia> Oh, right :)
[01:04] <persia> Still, half as much work.
[01:04] <micahg> persia: have time to ack a sync request?
[01:04]  * micahg doesn't expect it to go in until after beta freeze
[01:04] <persia> Not now, maybe later.  Stick it in the sponsors queue.
[01:05] <micahg> persia: it's there, but the main core-dev sponsor is on vacation :)
[01:05] <persia> Oh, if it's seeded, I don't have authority to ack it anyway.  If it's not seeded, Beta Freeze doesn't mean much.
[01:05]  * persia isn't core-dev
[01:05] <micahg> oh...
[01:05]  * micahg thought for some reason...
[01:05] <ajmitch> you need to find a core-dev with spare time to build it?
[01:06]  * persia points at suspiciously alert core-devs in New Zealand
[01:06] <micahg> ajmitch: it's sqlite3
[01:06] <ajmitch> oh dear
[01:06] <micahg> already got the FFe
[01:06]  * ajmitch looks around for Laney
[01:08] <ajmitch> micahg: this really really fixes all reported slowness issues? :)
[01:08] <micahg> ajmitch: 3.7.1 supposedly did, 3.7.2 is one extra data munging bug fix
[01:08] <ajmitch> looks important
[01:08]  * ajmitch fetches
[01:09] <micahg> ajmitch: bug 623722
[01:09] <ajmitch> yeah I was on the bug
[01:09] <micahg> ajmitch: thanks
[03:40] <lfaraone> Can packages in Universe depend on packages in Multiverse?
[03:41] <micahg> lfaraone: no
[03:42] <lfaraone> huh. requestsync will grab a new package from contrib and try to put it in universe...
[03:42] <lfaraone> micahg: byg 625026
[03:42] <lfaraone> micahg: bug 625026
[03:43] <micahg> lfaraone: k, you should probably file a bug against requestsync
[03:44] <micahg> lfaraone: I would think the AA would catch that when syncing though and throw it in multiverse
[03:44] <persia> Not necessarily.
[03:44] <persia> Many packages in contrib qualify for universe
[03:44] <persia> UFSG != DFSG
[03:44] <micahg> oh, I guess no bug then :)
[03:44] <persia> Right.  archive-admins review in source NEW.
[03:45] <micahg> but the package in question should still go in multiverse since etoys which is a dependency is in multiverse
[03:45] <persia> When copyright changes, it's up to all of us to make sure we file bugs to move things.
[03:45] <persia> Right.
[03:45] <lfaraone> micahg: yeah, but etoys is free, just not something the ftpmasters wanted to include in main for technical reasons.
[03:45] <micahg> lfaraone: k, well why is it in multiverse?
[03:46] <lfaraone> micahg: the "source code" is a virtual machine that isn't trivially diffable.
[03:46] <micahg> lfaraone: free is relative
[03:46] <persia> lfaraone, And we don't have source to build the virtual machine?
[03:46] <lfaraone> micahg: it's like if we couldn't bootstrap C, and could only edit C code using C code.
[03:46] <lfaraone> micahg: yes, we have the VM source.
[03:47] <lfaraone> micahg: however, nobody has bootstrapped Squeak Smalltalk since the 1970s or so.
[03:47] <micahg> lfaraone: are we building the vm from source?
[03:47]  * persia thought LaserJock did it a couple years ago
[03:47] <lfaraone> micahg: sorry, the virtual machine has source, but we don't have source for the VM image.
[03:47] <lfaraone> persia: news to me.
[03:47] <micahg> lfaraone: then multiverse sounds right
[03:47] <persia> yeah.
[03:47] <lfaraone> micahg: well, you can edit the VM image, and modify it.
[03:48] <lfaraone> micahg: but you just have to do that inside the VM image itself.
[03:48] <micahg> lfaraone: right, but anything in main/universe needs to be built fro source in the archive
[03:48] <persia> If it was written in a self-hosting language that generated machine-code that was the VM, and we bootstrapped off the last good build for each upload, it could be universe.
[03:48] <persia> But we need to build the machine-code on the buildds to qualify for universe.
[03:49] <lfaraone> persia: something that was talked about several years ago was to have a single "base squeak image" and just have everything else built as .changes off that.
[03:49] <persia> Doesn't work.
[03:49] <lfaraone> it's something dfarning is going to takle for natty.
[03:50] <persia> We need source code (can be smalltalk) that generates machine code that processes the source code...
[03:50] <lfaraone> "How can I bootstrap a Squeak image?"…"You don't. Some bits in this Squeak are descended from Smalltalk-76. They have been loaded and saved in a 'core image' many times. It is, theoretically possible to start from nothing (since it has been done in the past, back before the earth cooled), but it is not easy."
[03:50] <persia> LaserJock is emeritus, but maybe drop him an email, and see if he remembers anything.
[03:51] <persia> We don't need to start from nothing.  If you get a source package that build-depends on a binary package that had source with binary blobs, and that generates a binary package that can be used to rebuild the same source package, the buildd admins can iterate it a couple times, and put it in universe.
[03:52] <persia> The key is that we need to be able to build it once we have it, not that we need to bootstrap from scratch.
[03:52] <persia> (recent example was getting fpc working on powerpc and armel)
[03:52] <lfaraone> persia: "build"? the image doesn't really need to be "compiled", it's modified when you're working on it.
[03:53] <persia> lfaraone, Is it theoretically possible to write smalltalk code that would generate the image as a *separate* external binary blob?
[03:54] <persia> And could it be said that such an external binary blob was a representation of that source?
[03:55] <lfaraone> persia: Sure, there's SystemTracer. But from what I understand, people dislike it for some reason.
[03:55] <persia> Find out why :)
[03:55] <persia> Basically, you need some way to convert some body of text into the VM (this process may require the VM to be present, if you need).
[03:56] <persia> Once you achieve that level, you can get into universe.
[03:56] <lfaraone> persia: well, sure, you can merge in a .changes file (sort of texty) into an existing VM.
[03:56] <persia> Before that, you can7t, because there's no documentation of the contents of the VM.
[03:56] <persia> lfaraone, Except I want to generate a *new* external binary blob that happens to be a VM, rather than modify the VM.
[03:57] <lfaraone> persia: so merge in the changes in RAM and then run SystemTracer to generate a new blog?
[03:57] <lfaraone> *blob
[03:58] <persia> Well, kinda, except you need a set of changes that starts from nothing.
[03:58] <persia> Because we can't know that the binary VM hasn't been compromised.
[04:01] <lfaraone> persia: sandbox it to hell and hope that nobody's too smart :)
[04:01] <persia> https://forum.defcon.org/archive/index.php/t-8111.html
[07:50] <Zombie> Hello, anyone living?
[07:51] <persia> bundles of folks
[07:52] <Zombie> I'nm interested in d2x-xl Builds for Mandriva.
[07:52] <Zombie> er
[07:52] <Zombie> I'nm interested in d2x-xl Builds for Ubuntu.
[07:52] <Zombie> Let me explain.
[07:52] <Zombie> Most of my build machines are Mandriva, and I can transplant that build from Mandriva to Ubuntu, and it will be okay.
[07:53] <persia> d2x-xl ?
[07:55] <Zombie> Its a source port of the DOS Game.
[07:56] <Zombie> Descent 2/
[07:57] <persia> OK.  And you want to build it on Ubuntu?
[07:57] <Zombie> Yes.
[07:57] <Zombie> My Mandriva builds crash. Badly.
[07:57] <persia> So, you *could* do something with alien on the rpm, but we generally recommend that you add separate packaging metadata for Debian-format packages (which are used in Ubuntu)
[07:59] <persia> there was a recent excellent blog entry detailing a fairly lightweight step-by-step process to accomplish this: http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com/2010/08/is-packaging-new-software-hard.html
[08:00] <persia> You might want to stick it in a PPA, or you might want to work with the Debian Games team (#debian-games on OFTC) to get it into Debian and all derivatives (including Ubuntu)
[08:04] <Laney> ajmitch and micahg: I don't think all of the slowness bugs are done yet
[08:05] <micahg> Laney: :(, even with 3.72
[08:05] <Laney> right
[08:05] <Laney> there's a problem with ORDER BY RANDOM() that I'm aware of
[08:05] <micahg> Laney: is it better than <IP_ADDRESS>?
[08:07] <Laney> sure, it fixes integrity problems
[08:07] <micahg> Laney: k, well, we still have time before release if it can be tracked down...
[08:25] <\sh> micahg, will come in just a few hours :)
[08:41] <geser> persia: a rebuild of missingh is waiting in the upload queue. once it got accepted and build, your haskell-{configglue,hsh} rebuilds should be ready for a give-back
[08:42]  * persia doesn't understand why things are failing in the DC that worked just fine 15 minutes before upload.
[08:45] <Laney> persia and geser; You'll probably see some ftbfsen on armel that are just because ghc6 hasn't yet built there, should be good to give-back after that
[08:46] <persia> armel worked for me: my issues are i386/amd64 (and I did my build-testing on amd64, making it extra confusing)
[08:46] <Laney> hmm
[08:47] <geser> Laney: do you know how many ABI provides have changed in the ghc6 package with the recent upload?
[08:47] <Laney> geser: Just one (unix)
[08:47] <Laney> http://orangesquash.org.uk/~laney/haskell-installability/amd64.png the graph isn't so bad
[08:47] <Laney> darcs is the strangest failure, and that has been happening for a while
[08:48] <Laney> micahg: Actually I just got an email that it might indeed be fixed after all in .2
[08:48] <geser> is there an explanation for the colours? green = ok, red = failure, light red = ?, purple = ?
[08:49] <Laney> geser: There's a README
[08:49] <Laney> It's FTBFS and FTBFS+uninstallable
[08:49] <Laney> probably not the most advisable colours
[10:21] <jmehdi> hi, I'm interesting in packaging a mono app, where could I find some good tutorial?
[10:25] <persia> directhex, Laney ^^
[10:25] <directhex> jmehdi, #debian-cli on oftc is a good place to be
[10:25] <Laney> yeehaw
[10:25] <jmehdi> directhex: ok, thanks
[10:30] <Laney> as for a tutorial, looking at another mono app is probably the best documentation
[10:30] <Laney> f-spot tomboy banshee tasque muine (did we RM that?)
[10:31] <directhex> Laney, those are pretty complex examples aren't they? it'd help to know which app jmehdi has his eye on
[10:31] <Laney> actually the packaging is usually pretty simple
[10:31] <Laney> at least if I can understand it anyway…
[10:31] <directhex> heh
[10:31] <directhex> i think some of sebner's packages have ultra-minimal dh7 don't they?
[10:32] <Laney> pinta might be a good one
[10:32]  * Laney forgets
[10:32] <sebner> directhex: ultra minimal?
[10:33] <sebner> directhex: *how* minimal=
[10:33] <persia> rules.tiny
[10:33] <directhex> rules.tiny, or as close as can be achieved
[10:33]  * sebner looks
[10:34] <Laney> I can't remember the name of that video editing one
[10:34] <sebner> Laney: longomatch but it has clean and install overrides
[10:34] <Laney> :(
[10:35] <sebner> hmm, everwhere at least install/clean/configure overrides
[10:36] <Laney> oh well
[10:36] <persia> You guys should create some addons so you can use rules.tiny
[10:36] <Laney> there is one
[10:36] <Laney> pinta is as close to rules.tiny as I've found
[10:37] <sebner> Laney: definately
[10:39] <directhex> persia, we get fairly close... but sometimes you need hax.
[10:40] <Laney> it should be genuinely rules.tiny at the next release
[10:40] <Laney> modulo the include
[10:41] <persia> Why include?  Shouldn't it be --with-mono or something?
[10:41] <directhex> i thought joeyh was breaking includes
[10:41] <Laney> compat 8 does indeed
[10:41] <directhex> because he hates us. sniff
[10:42] <persia> No, he just prefers integration to includes
[10:42] <Laney> the include does export DH_OPTIONS += --with=cli
[10:42] <Laney> and MONO_DISABLE_SHM
[10:44] <directhex> yeah, it's the MONO_DISABLE_SHM one that annoys me
[12:35] <smallfoot-> where can i get a list of software in the multiverse channel in repo?
[12:36] <persia> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/maverick/multiverse/source/Sources.bz2
[12:36] <persia> (replace "maverick" with other releases for those)
[12:38] <smallfoot-> oh, i noticed you could view it in Synaptic too
[12:38] <smallfoot-> put Spotify in multiverse
[12:39] <smallfoot-> opera isnt in multiverse either
[12:58] <jpds> smallfoot-: bug #386919
[12:59] <smallfoot-> despotify is open source command-line client and library
[12:59] <smallfoot-> but they should put official proprietary client too, cuz its easier for most ppl to use
[12:59] <smallfoot-> despotify only work with premium acc
[12:59] <jpds> 'they' could be you.
[13:00] <persia> Indeed, it's much more likely if "they" is you :)
[13:00] <smallfoot-> package thing is very difficult
[13:02] <persia> http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com/2010/08/is-packaging-new-software-hard.html suggests not so much
[13:06] <directhex> i agree with a couple of bits & pieces in maco's guide, but it's not a bad summary overall
[13:06]  * persia would have s/but/and/ in that sentence
[13:12] <Laney> it's easy with an easy upstream
[13:13] <directhex> and it's hellish with messy upstreams
[13:13] <directhex> don't stare too closely at OOo, you might go mad
[13:13] <persia> No.  it's can reach impossible.
[13:13] <persia> OOo isn't the worst thing out there.
[13:14] <directhex> OOo has the worst build system i've worked on
[13:14] <directhex> in the archive, anyway
[13:17] <persia> You've done well then :)
[13:19] <smallfoot-> http://www.spotify.com/se/download/previews/
[13:19] <smallfoot->  http://repository.spotify.com/pool/non-free/s/spotify/ <-- .deb files here
[13:19] <smallfoot-> you guys can copy those .deb files and put them in multiverse repo?
[13:19] <persia> We can't use .deb files.
[13:19] <directhex> smallfoot-, no.
[13:19] <smallfoot-> oh
[13:19] <persia> We need source packages.
[13:19] <smallfoot-> but multiverse is non-free
[13:20] <smallfoot-> spotify doesnt release source code for spotify, cuz its proprietary non-free software
[13:20] <Laney> Spotify could potentially get a partner agreement with Canonical to have it in that repository, but it can't go into Ubuntu.
[13:20] <persia> multiverse is *not* non-free
[13:20] <persia> multiverse is less-free.
[13:22] <directhex> hm, they actually have a repo for their packages, not just random debs
[13:22] <persia> Laney, commercial agreements with arbitrary firms (including Canonical) do not waive the license restrictions on the archive (unless you refer to Canonical's partner archive, in which case you should be explicit: that's no more part of Ubuntu than Sharp's jaunty application service center).
[13:22] <Laney> persia: That's what I meant by partner agreement
[13:22] <persia> Ah, OK.  Canonical confusingly has several different "partner" things.
[13:23] <Laney> Yeah, for avoidance I meant archive.c.c/ubuntu
[16:36] <ScottK> lucas_: With maverick in freeze for beta, this would be a really nice time for another archive rebuild, if you're up for it.
[16:57] <lucas_> ScottK: will try to do it next week
[16:58] <ScottK> lucas_: Great.  Thanks.
[17:15] <micahg> Laney: that's good news
[17:15] <micahg> \sh: I wanted to ask you if the Zend_Twitter thing was worth an SRU?
[17:17] <kklimonda> hmm.. is pbuilder-satisfydepends broken in Maverick? or at least has been modified? I've used it to install dependencies on my system (and then uninstall them by purging dummy pbuilder package) but that doesn't seem to work now :/
[17:17] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: universe enabled?
[17:18] <kklimonda> yeah, my bad - I've used it in a wrong folder.. I could swear it didn't work before, when I were in the right one but now it works as expected..
[17:38] <ari-tczew> kirkland: can we sync package libjibx1.1-java? the Conflicts: field is not the same
[17:39] <kirkland> ari-tczew: yes, we can sync it;  Debian's is "more correct", per email conversation
[17:40] <ari-tczew> kirkland: ok thanks :)
[17:40] <kirkland> ari-tczew: ack
[17:44] <ari-tczew> kirkland: could you check this bug 618752 ? why is it commited not released?
[18:10] <kirkland> ari-tczew: i just lost a race at upload time
[18:10] <kirkland> ari-tczew: i meant to mark fix-committed, and then upload, and have LP mark it fix-released
[18:11] <kirkland> ari-tczew: but my fix-committed change got applied seconds after LP marked it fix-released apparently
[18:11] <kirkland> ari-tczew: i just updated it
[18:11] <ari-tczew> kirkland: thanks
[18:27] <vish> tumbleweed: i'll close some of the bugs, no need for uploading them directly in Ubuntu. :)
[18:47] <ari-tczew> Daviey: ping
[18:49] <Daviey> ari-tczew, o/
[18:49] <ari-tczew> Daviey: did you saw discussion with kirkland? ^
[18:50] <Daviey> no :S
[18:51] <ari-tczew> Daviey: I'll send you it on private message
[18:52] <Daviey> ari-tczew / kirkland: i'm confused :S
[18:52] <ari-tczew> Daviey: what's your problem?
[18:52] <ari-tczew> where do you see new upstream release?
[18:52] <ari-tczew> please show me, perhaps I;m blind
[18:54] <Daviey> ari-tczew, erm.. you want to sync libjibx1.2-java (1.2.1-1) unstable right?
[18:55] <Daviey> Maverick = 1.1.6a-1ubuntu1
[18:55] <Daviey> "  * New upstream release (Closes: #526611)."
[18:56] <Daviey> http://bugs.debian.org/526611
[18:57] <ari-tczew> Daviey: no, there are no new upstream release
[18:57] <Daviey> it looks like a massive sync
[18:58] <ari-tczew> Daviey: please get a source of existing ubuntu package libjibx1.1-java and look in debian/changelog
[18:58] <ari-tczew> command: apt-get source libjibx1.1-java
[18:59] <Daviey> ari-tczew, I synced the current Maverick upstream version in.. i have it :)
[18:59] <Daviey> changelog skewing, looks like
[18:59] <ari-tczew> Daviey: perhaps. well, now it's ok?
[19:01] <Daviey> I guess so.. I haven't looked at the delta.. but it still needs a beta freeze exception and ideally kirkland to ack the sync.
[19:08] <ari-tczew> Daviey: are you in motu?
[19:10] <Daviey> ari-tczew, no.. but that is irrelevant for this package - it's in main.
[19:11] <ari-tczew> Daviey: bugfixes and improvements without new features (like in new upstreams) can go.
[19:11] <Daviey> ari-tczew, That's fine.. but it still needs an ack from a core-dev.
[19:12] <ari-tczew> Daviey: yes, I know about it :]
[19:13] <ari-tczew> Daviey: if I would be impatient, I'd ask kirkland for ACK through launchpad (he gave ACK here 1,5 ~hour ago)
[19:16] <Daviey> ari-tczew, Ok, great... I won't involved myself in the discussion further.
[19:17] <Daviey>  libjibx caused me a day of pain a few weeks ago, as it was simply dropped from the archive.. Which is why i care about it.
[19:21] <tumbleweed> vish: thanks :)
[19:28] <ari-tczew> Daviey: no problem, feel free to ask. anyone who asks, do not wander
[19:49] <ari-tczew> what is a sense of existing file *.1 in debian/changelog?
[20:50] <ScottK> sistpoty: Would you be up for looking at http://launchpadlibrarian.net/54505066/buildlog_ubuntu-maverick-armel.hdf5_1.8.4-patch1-2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz - I think getting that fixed would unlock a fair number of armel build failures.
[20:55] <sistpoty> ScottK: sorry, looks to be out of my range, since I lack armel hw (which makes it quite hard to find the reason for a SIGILL)
[20:55] <ScottK> OK.
[20:55] <ScottK> dyfet: ^^^ Could you take a stab at it?
[20:56] <dyfet> right now everything I build at least for kde for armel is crashing in build :(
[21:05] <ScottK> This isn't KDE, so it ought to be a chance for a fresh start.
[21:07] <dyfet> Hmm...illegal instruction...
[21:08] <directhex> illegal instruction - building for the wrong ARM version?
[21:09] <dyfet> This is whats also happening to all my kde builds on arm today, either happens in mock or cmake...hmm...
[21:10] <ScottK> dyfet: What are you working on?
[21:10] <sistpoty> dyfet: if you can trace down the illegal instruction in question (e.g. using gdb), I'm quite sure that would help to lock down the problem
[21:10] <dyfet> I have a beagle board...it is very slow.  I am going to try that next though.
[21:28] <ScottK> sistpoty: osgal currently FTBFS in Debian and Ubuntu due to autoreconf stuff not working.  We need to rebuild it for NBS.  Care to take a stab at that one (no special hardware required)?
[21:29] <sistpoty> ScottK: on my list :). (still fighting with the wiki)
[21:29] <ScottK> sistpoty: Thanks.
[21:46] <AnAnt> Hello
[22:04] <sistpoty> oh, nice, found the bug in osgal. it's of course a bug in cdbs (changing it's API). So a) the cause is simple to solve apart from b) cdbs is evil *g*
[22:39] <sistpoty> oh, osgal is harder than I thought, cdbs has totally gone nuts, as far as I can tell it so far (though it never was sane in the first place *g*)
[23:15] <ScottK> sistpoty: I didn't get beyond if I manually autoreconf and then don't let clean run first it would build.  Then I noticed it was CDBS and gave up.
[23:17] <sistpoty> ScottK: actually I just managed to get it built (still with cdbs, and using pbuilder for unstable)... still trying to carve out minimal changes
[23:17] <ScottK> Excellent.
[23:17] <ScottK> You want to NMU it in Debian (along with our armel build patch) and then sync?
[23:18] <sistpoty> ScottK: that would be my next question, once I sorted building straight from unstable sources out :)
[23:19] <ScottK> Same RC bug exists in Debian, so if you're comfortable you have a sufficiently correct solution, I think it would be the way to go.
[23:19] <sistpoty> ScottK: actually I'm working only from unstable sources right now :)
[23:20] <ScottK> Great.