 Alright, so qtbase seems fine, doing a reupload without the ~1 and tagging/pushing
 I'll work on the Qt transition more tomorrow afternoon, but I expected that arch:all failure (ABI bump...)
 Shouldn't be a big deal as we already have arch:all binaries published from ~1
 Just uploaded a fix for this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qttools-opensource-src/+bug/1739955
 Night :()
 *:)
[06:39] <valorie> sweet dreams, tsimonq2
 @tsimonq2, I agree with the ABI bump
 @tsimonq2, Thanks for the SRU!
 @mitya57, OK cool
 @mitya57, Yw :)
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-January/040118.html
 Looks like we'll have to include the OpenSSL 1.1 patch in our packaging
 The Fedora patch in question is probably this one: http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/qt5-qtbase.git/tree/qt5-qtbase-5.9.1-openssl11.patch?id=8cedb395cff98495c47819d048d3d1619c887918
 4k lines, not the best thing to have
 Ack
 @tsimonq2 When working on qttools, please merge the latest version from Debian. Ubuntu is currently two uploads behind.


[06:41] <LirazSiri> good morning y'all
[15:57] <tyche> ALLEZ,  ALLEZ, ALLZINFREE!!!
[15:58] <tyche> It's time to show the world how a REAL team works.      How ELSE is the new guy supposed to learn what to avoid when he gains in rank.
[16:01] <tyche> (And yes, I suppose I am calling you "rank")  Hee hee
[16:01] <tyche> As for the raise, you got that last week.
[16:02] <kennymc0> that was for the upcoming events section
[16:02] <kennymc0> and with what you are paying me you can afford to double my salary again
[16:02] <kennymc0> lol
[16:02] <myrtlebeachbums> Yeah, aren't you making a billion times what you made on your first UWN issue now? I know I am.
[16:02] <tyche> What???!!!!????  You want me to double your pay AGAIN????!!!!????
[16:03] <tyche> OK, 2 * 0 STILL = 0
[16:03] <myrtlebeachbums> Exactly!
[16:03] <kennymc0> See. that wasnt that hard
[16:04] <kennymc0> lol
[16:04] <kennymc0> hey........wait
[16:04] <kennymc0> lol
[16:04] <tyche> The unmitigated gall of some new troupes.
[16:04] <tyche> Or is that Gaul.  Hee hee
[16:04] <tyche> "All gall is divided into three parts"?
[16:08] <johnc4510> tyche: did you read thru the UDW piece in GCN??
[16:10] <tyche> I had read through the original.  I haven't read your teaser yet.
[16:10] <johnc4510> when you get a chance please, it was a lot of adlib i had to put in from sources
[16:10] <myrtlebeachbums> So tyche, about that bringing the one article for ITB up to the group.... You want the honors?
[16:12] <johnc4510> myrtlebeachbums: what about it?
[16:12] <tyche> I hereby bestow upon johnc4510, by the authority vested in me through my B.A. in BS, the honorary degree of PHD (Piled Higher and Deeper).  Hee hee
[16:14] <johnc4510> so what are we discussing here??
[16:14] <myrtlebeachbums> The ITB entry we spoke about. tyche proposed debating it here.
[16:15] <myrtlebeachbums> http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/65877.html
[16:15] <johnc4510> looking
[16:15] <tyche> That's the one you're supposed to be condensing down.
[16:15] <tyche> In a polite way.
[16:15] <johnc4510> right
[16:16] <johnc4510> it may make the final cut and may not. we'll see
[16:16] <myrtlebeachbums> Yep. I accepted that one. I'll stop procrastinating now and work on i.... OOOH! SHINY THING!
[16:16] <johnc4510> i'm trying to get something in to make the community realize that flaming isn't wanted or needed
[16:16] <myrtlebeachbums> *nod*
[16:16] <johnc4510> k
[16:19] <tyche> BTW, johnc4510, Nick's Ubuntu Podcast 18 is out now.
[16:20] <johnc4510> tyche: ah ok
[16:27] <tyche> Hey johnc4510?   (Meeting Summaries, Mobile Team, first bullet point.)
[16:27] <johnc4510> looking
[16:28] <johnc4510> should probably be "absorbtion" i think
[16:28] <tyche> OH!!! OK, that makes sense
[16:28] <johnc4510> :)
[16:29] <johnc4510> change it if you could please
[16:29] <tyche> Yep
[16:32] <johnc4510> ITP: Don't fear the penguin: nice job of the write up on that one :)
[16:33] <myrtlebeachbums> Thanks!
[16:34] <johnc4510> kennymc0: can you correct the two typo's in the last sentence of the first article ITB "foudn taht"
[16:34] <johnc4510> lol
[16:34] <kennymc0> wow i made a mistake like that
[16:34] <kennymc0> maybe i should start doing them in open office instead of just a text doc
[16:35] <kennymc0> spell check is my friend
[16:35] <tyche> Gedit can spell check.  You just have to go in and turn it on every time you start.
[16:35] <myrtlebeachbums> Firefox 3.x does inline spell checking. Pay attention to the lil' red lines. ;)
[16:36] <myrtlebeachbums> I saw that a request for Gedit is for Wiki syntax highlighting. Note that I said "requested", not "implemented".
[16:36] <johnc4510> kennymc0: also the 3rd article next to last sentence:"adn
[16:36] <kennymc0> u was kinda tired when i wrote that one
[16:36] <myrtlebeachbums> Either someone's going to make that or by UWN 150 I'll be frustrated enough to learn how to make it myself.
[16:36] <kennymc0> so i can understand a mistake like that in that one
[16:36] <johnc4510> sure
[16:36] <johnc4510> np
[16:37] <myrtlebeachbums> "u was kinda tired"... and you're wide awake now?
[16:37] <johnc4510> kennymc0: nice job on the 3 ITB that are up
[16:41] <kennymc0> tyche: if you could let me know when you are out of the UWN so that i can post another ITB
[16:42] <tyche> Saving now
[16:42] <tyche> Clear
[16:42] <kennymc0> kk thx
[16:44] <kennymc0> ok i'm out now
[16:44] <kennymc0> made those changes johnc4510
[16:45] <johnc4510> kennymc0: thx
[16:45] <kennymc0> np
[16:50] <kennymc0> ok another ITB is up
[16:50] <kennymc0> now it's up to myrtlebeachbums to finish it off
[16:50] <johnc4510> k
[16:50]  * myrtlebeachbums notes that it's officially all on his shoulders.
[16:50] <johnc4510> lol
[16:51] <tyche> I'm working on the glossary.  I discovered more as I was going through correcting some typos
[16:52] <johnc4510> great
[16:52] <johnc4510> :>
[16:53] <myrtlebeachbums> johnc4510 - it's pasted in now. Let me know what you think.
[16:57] <myrtlebeachbums> Gee, spot the verbose guy's post in the ITB section. :-P
[16:57] <myrtlebeachbums> GAH! Missed a camelback. Fixing.
[16:57] <tyche> Yea, with the CamelBack that I had to fix
[16:58] <tyche> Hee hee.  Too late.  Already done
[16:58] <myrtlebeachbums> I just saw that. Thanks tyche.
[17:06] <tyche> myrtlebeachbums: You did a good job on the "Woman Quits College" one, but I still don't like it.
[17:07] <tyche> Sorry.
[17:07] <myrtlebeachbums> Heh heh heh. NP
[17:07] <kennymc0> that's why i didnt want to do it
[17:07] <tyche> Just my opinion.
[17:07] <myrtlebeachbums> There's no easy way to wrap that up as a feel good story in the end.
[17:07] <johnc4510> lol
[17:07] <tyche> It isn't a "feel-good" story.  You're right there.
[17:07] <myrtlebeachbums> As usual on the internet, a few highly opinionated idiots made the rest of the community look bad.
[17:08] <johnc4510> kennymc0: i altered the last 2 ITB summaries to expand them
[17:08]  * myrtlebeachbums hands kennymc0 a +5 ITB shovel
[17:08] <johnc4510> myrtlebeachbums: i'll take a look at the flame war now
[17:08] <myrtlebeachbums> k
[17:09] <kennymc0> thx for expanding them johnc4510 there wasnt a whole lot of material in the last 2
[17:09] <johnc4510> np
[17:13] <kennymc0> stats look good so far
[17:13] <kennymc0> just running a quick check
[17:14] <boredandblogging> hi guys
[17:14] <kennymc0> morning boredandblogging
[17:14] <boredandblogging> can we include a link to the Developer News in the UWN?
[17:15] <boredandblogging> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-January/000527.html
[17:15] <johnc4510> boredandblogging: we can
[17:16] <johnc4510> myrtlebeachbums: tyche kennymc0, try the college lady piece now
[17:16] <johnc4510> made some changes
[17:16] <myrtlebeachbums> Looking
[17:16] <tyche> Looking . . .
[17:17] <myrtlebeachbums> Addition by subtraction. Looks good johnc4510.
[17:17] <tyche> Better, but I don't think it gets the point across.  Unfortunately (I've read the article) I'm not sure one could from the article.  It's implied, not stated.
[17:17] <johnc4510> right
[17:17] <johnc4510> hopefully the community gets the idea
[17:18] <tyche> Well, we may hear about this one.
[17:18] <johnc4510> although it's not really our people doing it i don't think
[17:18] <johnc4510> if we do we do
[17:18] <tyche> Nope.  Zelots (not the person with the nick)
[17:18] <johnc4510> news is news...it's not always good news
[17:18] <johnc4510> right
[17:18] <myrtlebeachbums> Sadly enough, if they read UWN chances are they're not in the group of people that need to be hit with a clue by four while being told "HELP THE N00BS! - DON'T DISCOURAGE THEM!"
[17:18] <tyche> True.  And that I can accept.
[17:19] <johnc4510> boredandblogging: should i put the dev news in
[17:19] <johnc4510> GCN or ION
[17:19] <johnc4510> ?
[17:20] <tyche> kennymc0:  I thought you said that there were 30 some entries for Upcoming Meetings.
[17:20] <kennymc0> yeah i made a mistake
[17:20] <kennymc0> i looked at the wrong week
[17:20] <tyche> AH!  WHEW!!!  You scared me.
[17:20] <kennymc0> i told you that after i realized it but you probably had gone to bed by then
[17:20] <kennymc0> i scared myself
[17:21] <tyche> Yea, I didn't see it.
[17:21] <boredandblogging> johnc4510: lets drop it at the bottom of GCN
[17:21] <johnc4510> boredandblogging: kk
[17:21] <tyche> Of course, fighting this cold, I probably miss a lot
[17:21] <boredandblogging> also, please use use lp.net instead of edge.lp.net
[17:22] <johnc4510> where at?
[17:23] <johnc4510> ah in the tech board runoff
[17:23] <johnc4510> k
[17:23] <boredandblogging> johnc4510: technical board run off
[17:23] <johnc4510> :)
[17:23] <boredandblogging> yeah, but I kinda meant as a general thing as well
[17:24] <johnc4510> yeah, i'm not sure where is got that
[17:25] <johnc4510> i think off the mailing list link
[17:25] <johnc4510> boredandblogging: ok, done and done
[17:25] <boredandblogging> edge is for people who are LP testers, if I'm not mistaken
[17:25] <johnc4510> k
[17:25] <johnc4510> i'll keep that in mind
[17:25] <johnc4510> not that it will stick hee hee
[17:26] <johnc4510> :/
[17:26] <boredandblogging> i bet it redirects
[17:29] <johnc4510> maybe
[17:54] <johnc4510> james_w: ping   boredandblogging told me to ask you about updates for 6.06 and 7.10. we haven't had any to put in the UWN since dec. 08
[17:54] <boredandblogging> james_w: are you going to post the UDN on the fridge?
[17:54] <james_w> boredandblogging: I'm not sure, I didn't think it was the right audience
[17:54] <james_w> johnc4510: you mean package fixes in those releases?
[17:55] <johnc4510> yes
[17:55] <james_w> it's possible that there haven't been any
[17:55] <johnc4510> k
[17:55] <james_w> let me have a look
[17:55] <johnc4510> thx
[17:55] <boredandblogging> james_w: I think we can post a summary, like the "in the news we have" highlights
[17:55] <boredandblogging> don't need to post the whole thing
[17:56] <james_w> if you think it's worth I would be happy to
[17:56] <boredandblogging> james_w: think it would be good
[17:57] <boredandblogging> plus once we migrate to the "new" fridge, it should be there
[17:57] <johnc4510> james_w: we draw from here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/gutsy-changes/ and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/feisty-changes/
[17:57] <johnc4510> for the UWN
[17:57] <boredandblogging> james_w: and I'm about to put it on the planet
[18:12]  * johnc4510 to UWN team, nice work all. I'll publish a little later after i do my final edits
[18:12] <johnc4510> thx
[18:12] <johnc4510> :)
[18:13] <tyche> Thanks, johnc4510.  Nice words that mean a great deal to me.
[18:13] <johnc4510> :)
[18:14] <johnc4510> you guys are great!!!!
[19:02] <LirazSiri> hey guys
[19:05] <kennymc0> morning
[19:05] <kennymc0> :)
[19:06] <LirazSiri> actually, it's 9pm over here :)
[19:06] <kennymc0> it's noon here
[19:06] <LirazSiri> where is everybody?
[19:07] <kennymc0> they left for lunch i suppose
[19:07] <kennymc0> a lot of the people that work on the uwn are in AZ
[19:07] <kennymc0> at least 3 of us
[19:08] <LirazSiri> really. I live in Israel. Small world
[19:08] <LirazSiri> I popped in because I wanted to discuss taking over the updates and security and stats sections officially
[19:09] <LirazSiri> the main thing is I want to prevent someone else from working on that accidentally and duplicating the effort
[19:10] <LirazSiri> also, if I get that role, I can do it a bit later with confidence and the stats will be a bit more up to date
[19:10] <LirazSiri> I can stick around for a bit longer, but if the guys don't come back we'll have to discuss this over email
[19:11] <kennymc0> as of right now there is no one else working on it
[19:11] <kennymc0> i believe they are cool with you working on it officially i just think you should talk with them
[19:12] <kennymc0> cause you are basically taking over what i used to do and they have moved me on to other parts of the uwn
[19:12] <LirazSiri> really what are you doing now?
[19:13] <kennymc0> i'm working on the summaries for the in the blogosphere and the upcoming events
[19:16] <kennymc0> well it's time for me to head out have to go pick up my little brother and get something to eat
[19:16] <kennymc0> talk to ya later
[19:17] <LirazSiri> ttyl
[19:30] <LirazSiri> hi john
[19:30] <johnc4510-laptop> LirazSiri: hey bud
[19:30] <johnc4510-laptop> :)
[19:31] <johnc4510-laptop> saw you had done the updates and security section this wk
[19:31] <johnc4510-laptop> nice job
[19:31] <LirazSiri> and the stats
[19:31] <johnc4510-laptop> thx
[19:31] <johnc4510-laptop> right
[19:31] <LirazSiri> kenny recommended I come talk to you guys about doing this role "officially"
[19:31] <LirazSiri> can you see the channel log before you came in?
[19:31] <johnc4510-laptop> sure, we're glad to have you
[19:32] <LirazSiri> alright, what I'm trying to prevent is duplicated effort
[19:32] <johnc4510-laptop> nah, i sat down with my laptop
[19:32] <johnc4510-laptop> np, when are you planning to have those in by in each issue?
[19:32] <johnc4510-laptop> just for my knowledge
[19:32] <johnc4510-laptop> :)
[19:32] <LirazSiri> I'm flexible on that
[19:32] <LirazSiri> that's what I want to talk to you about
[19:32] <johnc4510-laptop> k
[19:33] <LirazSiri> I know this stuff benefits from being done as late as possible
[19:33] <LirazSiri> e.g., the stats, the package and security updates
[19:33] <johnc4510-laptop> right, but i know you are on a different time zonw
[19:33] <LirazSiri> I am
[19:33] <johnc4510-laptop> k, so, what time is it there now?
[19:33] <LirazSiri> we can use UTC as a point of reference
[19:33] <LirazSiri> 21:34
[19:34] <johnc4510-laptop> k, can you have them done each wk by 17:00 your time?
[19:34] <LirazSiri> yes
[19:34] <LirazSiri> I'll put that down as the deadline on my end
[19:35] <johnc4510-laptop> ok, that would be great then, that's about the time i start looking things over
[19:35] <johnc4510-laptop> sounds great
[19:35] <johnc4510-laptop> thx
[19:35] <LirazSiri> np
[19:35] <LirazSiri> another thing that kenny mentioned is that you guys wanted everyone on the channel "to work as a team"
[19:35] <johnc4510-laptop> be sure to start documenting your contributions on your wiki page
[19:36] <LirazSiri> the problem is I am not sure I can be available on evenings (my time)
[19:36] <johnc4510-laptop> yeah we try to do it as a group when we get close to finishing up the issue
[19:36] <johnc4510-laptop> i understand
[19:36] <johnc4510-laptop> we can work with that
[19:36] <johnc4510-laptop> np
[19:36] <LirazSiri> great
[19:36] <LirazSiri> alright, I have to run off now. ttyl
[19:37] <johnc4510-laptop> great, looking forward to your contributions
[19:37] <johnc4510-laptop> :)
[19:37] <johnc4510-laptop> thx
[19:37] <LirazSiri> cheers!
[20:55] <johnc4510-laptop> server is having problems, i'll bb in a bit to finish up
[21:20] <Tumie> Loves conquers all things except poverty and toothache
[21:53] <james_w> boredandblogging: thanks for the blog post. Do you think that same text should be what is on the fridge?
[21:57] <boredandblogging> james_w: the list of contents under "In this issue we have
[21:57] <boredandblogging> "
[21:57] <boredandblogging> should be good enough
[22:00] <james_w> cool
[22:00] <james_w> I just applied to join ubuntu-fridge so that I can create the post
[22:00] <james_w> would you approve if for me?
[22:01] <boredandblogging> james_w: done
[22:01] <james_w> thanks
[22:09] <james_w> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1821 for you to review and publish at your leisure
[22:12] <boredandblogging> james_w: published, thanks
[22:12] <james_w> thank you
[22:43] <johnc4510-laptop> new UWN issue #126 is out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue126
[22:56] <james_w> nice work as always
[22:59] <johnc4510-laptop> james_w: thx


[13:10] <cyphermox> pangolin: looks like it would be October 21, and probably at Foonze
[13:10] <cyphermox> *Foonzo
[13:10] <pangolin> I will do my best to be there
[13:10] <cyphermox> pangolin: it would be really great to see you there, we don't see you very often
[13:10] <cyphermox> too bad KimLaroux isn't around yet, I would have explained the location thing
[21:49] <cyphermox> Kimlaroux: you were asking about Foonzo yesterday no?
[21:50] <cyphermox> euh, scuse, en francais ;)
[21:53] <Ankman> heh
[22:41] <Kimlaroux> yes j'askais about foonzo hier evening...
[22:42] <pangolin> I like comment you melange the French and anglais
[22:43] <Kimlaroux> en fait je me demandais pourquoi pangolin parlait de Saint Sulpice quand tu lui a demandé si il voulait venir au Foonzo
[22:44] <pangolin> because cyphermox was responding to an email where I said I didn't like the idea of saint sulpice


[00:07] <Scary_Guy> Well, there's a learning curve but speed does improve over time.  I either want that or a keyboard with a meta key.  maybe I can remap the menu key on a windows keyboard or something but this Ducky I'm using doesn't even have a Windows/Super key
[01:17] <jrwren>  mongodb ipo. 40M in cash, 400M in debt. 100M revenue on 160M expense. so... 1B valuation... what do you think they will actually try to raise?
[01:27] <cmaloney> Steve Jobs
[01:27] <jrwren> "We could be negatively impacted if the GNU Affero General Public License Version 3 and other open source licenses under which some of our software is licensed are not enforceable."
[01:27] <cmaloney> Because those numbers are terrible
[01:27] <jrwren> wow.
[01:27] <jrwren> lol, @ trying to raise steve jobs.
[01:27] <jrwren> those numbers aren't that bad.
[01:28] <cmaloney> I don't understand the 1B valuation
[01:28] <cmaloney> That reads like assumed income
[01:28] <jrwren> ten times earning is std valuation
[01:30] <cmaloney> It might be std, but it feels like fiction
[01:30] <cmaloney> especially on something like MongoDB
[01:31] <cmaloney> But then again I've been wrong on financial matters so take my prognostication with appropriate grains of salt
[01:34] <cmaloney> It is cool that they're putting the AGPL et al as risks if they are unenforceable
[01:35] <cmaloney> Though I would put "PostgreSQL takes over our mindshare" as a risk. ;)
[01:37] <jrwren> i'm trying to find companies that have similar revenue, but stock screeners suck :)
[01:38] <cmaloney> yes
[01:38] <cmaloney> The only thing that they have to sell is their brand
[01:38] <cmaloney> It reminds me a lot of Twitter
[01:41] <jrwren> CARS as in CARS.com has a bit more revnue, but similar market valueation and similar lack of profit ;)
[01:41] <jrwren> yes, twiter, snapchat, atlassian.
[01:41] <cmaloney> Atlassian is not as much in that category
[01:41] <cmaloney> they have a private product that they sell
[01:42] <jrwren> BOX is similar enough too
[01:42] <cmaloney> but Twitter doesn't sell a product
[01:42] <cmaloney> Snapchat doesn't sell a product
[01:42] <cmaloney> and MongoDB doesn't sell a product, they sell a service
[01:42] <cmaloney> (iirc)
[01:42] <jrwren> huh, carbonite on the other hand... weird. I wonder why carbonite is so under rated.
[01:43] <jrwren> mongodb sells products.
[01:43] <jrwren> no different than oracle or msft sells products
[01:44] <jrwren> this is fun, i've never really looked through small cap tech companies before.
[01:44] <jrwren> etreme networks, zomg, their revenue dried up.
[01:45] <cmaloney> MongoDB has Atlas
[01:45] <cmaloney> Everything else you can download afaict
[01:45] <cmaloney> Oh, sorry, enterprise requires a subscription
[01:46] <jrwren> products, services... what is the difference tehse days :)
[01:46] <jrwren> more revenue than netgear!
[01:47] <cmaloney> Netgear is taking a beating
[01:47] <jrwren> whoa, rambus still exists.
[02:48] <cmaloney> wheeee
[10:31] <Scary_Guy> I watch a couple stocks for fun.  TSLA and AMD are both in the red by quite a bit now
[12:40] <cmaloney> morning
[13:05] <mrgoodcat> cmaloney: valuations are 99% bs 99% of the time
[13:06] <mrgoodcat> rev*10 may be standard but I agree its bs
[13:06] <mrgoodcat> there just isn't a better marker
[13:16] <cmaloney> It just reminds me of some friends who had an assumed income for their mortgage that was essentially fiction
[13:30] <jrwren> i much prefer earnings*10 to rev*10, but when you have no earnings, its tough, because then your valuation would be zero or negative. Which makes sense, why value a company that loses money?
[13:35] <cmaloney> *cough*
[13:47] <_stink__> because eyeballs!
[21:43] <jrwren> oh man... http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/copy_file_range.2.html  sweet syscall, sendfile with length limits. I wondered why I never heard of it and it was added in 4.5.
[21:45] <jrwren> err wait... no socket support?  I need to play


 I havmt slept yet. lol
[13:53] <darkmatter> <-- insomnia
[13:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo guy,,, you need to sleep
[13:53] <darkmatter> coz_: once I get tired ;)
[13:54] <darkmatter> so trying to be productive. lol
[13:54] <darkmatter> not getting much success with that
[13:54] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok ,, I completely understand
[13:56] <darkmatter> coz_: I'm smoking a redhat :O
[13:56] <darkmatter> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10734324&postcount=533
[13:56] <darkmatter> :P
[13:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo ,, I had to log into the forum :)  thats a very nice view there :)
[13:58] <zniavre_> does css difficult ?
[13:59] <darkmatter> zniavre_: the format for gtk3 is quite nice
[13:59] <zniavre_> i read yesterday what s cimi said i a bit disapointed to make my own theme in css style
[13:59] <zniavre_> i am*
[14:00] <zniavre_> im installing gnome3 on vbox to hav a look also
[14:00] <zniavre_> :o)
[14:01] <darkmatter> coz_: gnome3 is fraking _light_ compared to vanilla gnome2+compiz. has more than enough eyecandy and uses half the resources :O
[14:01] <coz_> darkmatter,  on fedora  yes?
[14:01] <coz_> darkmatter,   and mutter is not acting up with over use of resources?
[14:02] <darkmatter> coz_: yup. same on opensuse. but its default on fedora, so less crap than updating and breaking stuff
[14:03] <darkmatter> coz_: nope. runs fine. only tradeoff is I'm using the nouveau drivers (they're actually quite good) because the nvidia drivers for my card have yet to be updated with proper glx :P
[14:04] <darkmatter> but nvnews forums say that the legacy drivers will actully be getting updates to be compatible \o/
[14:05] <zniavre_> 173 .14.xx?
[14:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh !   honestly  I dont like gnome3  ... if they had gone the "gnome3  clever windows"  route   it would have over taken compiz  but  the diretion they are going in  is   not ever going to catch up.. and it makes we wonder why ,,like ubuntu,, they have not discarded mutter / gnome3   om favor of compiz
[14:05] <darkmatter> coz_: running about 8% cpu (more if I have bloat like firefox running, obviously), and about 180 megs of ram on an empty session
[14:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  whoa that is WAY  too much for a compositor
[14:06] <darkmatter> coz_: thats not the compositor. thats EVERYTHING
[14:06] <darkmatter> gnome 2 and compiz is heavier
[14:06] <coz_> darkmatter,  well still thats more than  compiz and everything else
[14:06] <coz_> darkmatter,  not here it isnt
[14:07] <coz_> darkmatter,  compiz 0.9.x  is far less resource intensive than that
[14:07] <darkmatter> coz_you probably have better hardware. gnome2+compiz uses 17ish% here
[14:07] <coz_> I realize that in its infancy,, compiz was just a proof of concept...but that is Looong gone
[14:08] <coz_> and it irritates the hell out of me that some developers  just got jealous about our progress over the years
[14:08] <coz_> kde has their own compositor  one of its developers used to be a developer on compiz
[14:08] <darkmatter> mutter is surprisingly _better_ in a lot of ways. not knocking compiz. but holy... cowpooh
[14:08] <coz_> gnome doesnt surprise me with  mutter  but it is a big mistake
[14:09] <coz_> seems to me,, that mark shuttleworth made the right decision about discarding mutter,, and hiring sam  to Canonical to get things done right
[14:09] <coz_> sam being the developer on compiz now
[14:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  sorry,, on this issue I have to disagree with  you  completely
[14:10] <coz_> mutter is a mistake
[14:10] <darkmatter> coz_: well, ubuntu had crap code with the clutter based unity. mutter is solid. I'm running on old and outdated hardware that compiz/unity i a slug on
[14:11] <darkmatter> mutter is far from a mistake
[14:11] <coz_> darkmatter,  mmm
[14:12] <darkmatter> coz_: nvidia FX 5200, XP +2000 (1.67 Ghz) and 512 megs of ram
[14:12] <darkmatter> snappy
[14:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  maybe  but  gnome is causing an issue with gnome3  just as kde is trying to do,, to  banish compiz   ,, I dont see the development sense to that,, neither of them are as good as  compiz  certainly not at this stage and I doubt seriously that mutter will ever reach that stage,,  unless they went with clever windows
[14:13] <darkmatter> coz_: bah. "banish compiz" :P I dn't care what the core compositor is, as long as it's pretty and runs smooth as silk ;)
[14:13] <coz_> and being  gnome based,, mutter is always going to have  way fewer user choices and settings
[14:13] <darkmatter> coz_: define "clever windows"
[14:14] <darkmatter> mutters windows seem pretty darn clever to me
[14:14] <coz_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZvwyxJ9vk
[14:14] <coz_> ^^ that was a mock up  titled , in the past as gnome3 clever windows
[14:15] <coz_> had they gone ^^ that route  ,, they could have seriously  competed with compiz
[14:15] <darkmatter> coz_: not argung against compiz, but "15000 settings" does not mean "better" it means more options. if thats yer thing. great
[14:15] <coz_> mutter,, typcially a gnome  product,, didnt want or couldnt go that route
[14:16] <coz_> rather a typcial gnome project
[14:16] <coz_> product
[14:16] <coz_> I only use gnome here,, but they are the most irritating group of developers
[14:17] <coz_> they are subborn  , arrogant,, and in my opinion,, idiots
[14:17] <coz_> mutter represents that same phylosophy  in my eyes
[14:17] <darkmatter> lol. nice opinion, because they don't support compiz :P
[14:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  no  not just that,, I have always felt that way lol
[14:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  but in terms of compiz,, instead of working with the team,,, they fought it from day one
[14:20] <coz_> darkmatter,  i once aked the developers for a command to  empty the recent documents,, they told me there is not such thing  and cannot be done
[14:20] <coz_> pfft
[14:20] <coz_> phfft
[14:21] <darkmatter> coz_: I swear, mutter is better than compiz. sure, you can argue features. but mutters features are all anyone actually _needs_. if you want more. use compiz. lol
[14:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  well yes  but that ;s not why mutter has fewer choices,,, it has fewer choices because of the developers and their stupidity
[14:23] <darkmatter> coz_: oh come on. it has nothing to do with stupidity. all the needed features are there. do you _need_ wobbly windows? no.. I dun think so
[14:23] <darkmatter> at least gnome is handled by actual designers now :P
[14:24] <coz_> darkmatter,   eeww  not dude,, gnome's phylosophy is STILL .. users are idiots and fewer choices are better "
[14:24] <darkmatter> coz_: its all about your opinion of what is a "feature"
[14:24] <coz_> and yes I really need wobbly :)
[14:26] <darkmatter> coz_: seriously? because I see "lets make things more usable for a larger number of people".  I call it as I see it. what I see is a desktop I can actually use, and that is faster/more productive for me. gives me awesome composited performance without the tearing I had with compiz.
[14:34] <darkmatter> therefore I use it
[14:35] <coz_> darkmatter,  mmm   I think this whole netbook mentality will fade at some point
[14:35] <darkmatter> if it woulda been worse than compiz. then I would have threw a fit and moved to xfce :P
[14:36] <coz_> darkmatter,  well  at this point I am still most definitly not a fan of mutter or gnome3,,,  I doubt that will change,, but I will at some point try it again
[14:36] <darkmatter> the only thing I love is an environment that works for me (tm) ;)
[14:37] <darkmatter> took me 30 seconds to learn gnome-shell :P
[14:37] <darkmatter> shell is not the platform, just a small part of it
[14:37] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok  I am not putting you down for using it,,, i just cannot wrap my head around gnome development mentality
[14:38] <darkmatter> gnome3 as a whole is nice. I can understand some people not liking shell. use what works for you
[14:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  this is true :)
[14:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  I just have issues with their developers,, have for years,,, I dont like them
[14:39] <coz_> :)
[14:40] <darkmatter> but 25 years of computing. tons of gui' and crap. OS/2, next, beos (still love that), etc etc etc etc. gnome-shell is the best desktop (besides Be) I've had the pleasure of using ;)
[14:40] <darkmatter> but just my opinion
[14:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  wow that is some statement,,
[14:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  well I will check it out again,,  no promises  :)
[14:45] <darkmatter> coz_: but it's more gnome3 as  a whole. it has the speed/simplicity I crave. It's far from complete, being a fresh start (for the most part), so has a few holes, but if you compare it to kde4's initial release, it's far superior imo.
[14:46] <darkmatter> desktop loads in about 4 seconds on this old rustbucket
[14:46] <darkmatter> gnome2, unity, kde4 take about 3 days. lol (ok, not literally, just feels like 3 days :P)
[14:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok ,, as I said,, i will try it again,,  I just cannot imaging my linux without compiz
[14:47] <darkmatter> coz_: not trying to sell you on trying it, just stating my experiences
[14:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  now KDE is absolutely beautiful  but rediculously resource intensive
[14:47] <darkmatter> try what you like. maybe an osx lion vm. LOL:P
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  well I  know we generally think alike,, so I cant just dismiss  your opinions about it :)
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  never OSX
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  I would go windows before mac
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  at least windows has a compiz clone available
[14:49] <darkmatter> mutter kinda reminds me of aero sans glass
[14:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  mmm that definitly will not sell me lol
[14:51] <darkmatter> coz_: not the resources, just the "enough" animations. they're different than aero though
[14:51] <darkmatter> but thats why it reminds me of it. enough to be pretty. course I could say "reminds me of OSX" in that regard as well
[14:52] <darkmatter> coz_: although mutter does do dialog sheets kinda like mac o.O
[14:52] <vish> " <coz_> I just cannot imaging my linux without compiz "  same here... :)
[14:53] <coz_> vish,  cool   my  favorite person now  :)
[14:53] <vish> yay! ^Y take that darkmatter ! ;p
[14:53] <coz_> lol
[14:53] <coz_> yeah!
[14:53] <darkmatter> I hate you. lol
[14:54] <darkmatter> coz_: vish: I like cmpiz too. just saying mutter isn't any worse/better. just different
[14:54] <coz_> :)
[15:19] <coz_> darkmatter,  also  lol.... compiz changed the face of linux permanently and brought over thousands of people ,, and continues to do so,,more than anything has in linux's  18 years  ...so there  :)
[15:21] <darkmatter> yeah... if you say so...
[15:21] <coz_> lol
[15:21] <coz_> darkmatter,  just playing with you guy :)
[15:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  I understand your approach to things
[15:23] <darkmatter> coz_: :P
[15:23] <coz_> darkmatter,  I just feel that compiz has  attracted sooo many people to linux over that past few years,, something I dont think will happen again for about another 5 years,, I just dont see mutter  having that kind of global attraction
[15:26] <coz_> any anything that pulls people from windows  over to linux,, is a good thing...
[15:28] <darkmatter> coz_: compiz attraction is a corner case. most people switch because they're looking for a low-cost (or free) alternative that is relatively modern and compatible with what they require it for (so flash, java, blah blah blah. depending on individual usage cases). shiny is just icing. It may make it more appealing to some, but its not the selling point
[15:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  no no guy,, spend more time in #compiz.. we get people daily who are new to linux and the ONLY reason they switched was compiz
[15:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  and that has been consistent since beryl
[15:30] <darkmatter> coz_: that's a _trivial_ fraction of people who switch, quite frankly
[15:30] <darkmatter> you need to do your homework ;)
[15:30] <coz_> darkmatter,   ah I dont know,, i have been keeping tabs on this,, and the increase has been approximate 40% of new users because of compiz
[15:31] <coz_> darkmatter,  it is consistent,, and compiz has indeed pulled windows users over to linux,, my own clients  are also the same,, they love the fancy stuff but dont know what it is of course
[15:32] <coz_> darkmatter,  and they love linux now as well ,, not necessarily because of compiz anylonger
[15:32] <coz_> darkmatter,  most people I talk with say about the same thing,, Linux?  that is far too complex,, I am not that smart
[15:32] <darkmatter> lol... and no. once again. 40%... lol. not knocking compiz. but that's just false. ;)
[15:34] <coz_> darkmatter,  no dude  40% of the new users in #compiz  came to linux because of compiz
[15:34] <coz_> darkmatter,  that has been consistent,, and I think many involved in linux feel the same as you do,, but its true
[15:35] <darkmatter> oh. in #compiz. corner case explains corner case :P
[15:36]  * darkmatter keeps harassing coz_ for kicks ;P
[15:37] <coz_> darkmatter,  well  yes in a way,, but when you see the numbers stay consistent,, at least in that channel,, it does give pause for thought,,, compix has indeed brought over more people ,, aka windows users... to linux than anything in linux's 18 years
[15:38] <coz_> it was a global reaction to something that was quite remarkable that neither apple or windows could offer
[15:38] <darkmatter> opinions, opinions.
[15:38] <coz_> lol
[15:39] <darkmatter>  and compiz is a total rip of the compositor in longhorn 3(?)19. no lie. wobbly windows and all
[15:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  not too confident to speak about that,, but remember even mac users have come over because of compiz
[15:40] <darkmatter> microsoft dropped the features because 90% of users _hated_ it. lol
[15:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  which is another testament for linux
[15:40] <coz_> and the developers for compiz in my opinion
[15:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  windows users... are generally business  oriented  and dont care about thisng like that
[15:41] <coz_> however
[15:41] <coz_> darkmatter,   the IT guy for the city of Largo Florida  has converted the entire city governments computers over to linux with compiz,, and it is more than wanted by all of the employees
[15:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  dave_ largo  has a blog you can read about it
[15:42] <coz_> it is quite remarkable and the first "official" installation of linux/compiz
[15:42] <darkmatter> lol
[15:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  I mean linux with compiz
[15:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  it is the first  business / official use of compiz
[15:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  and the employees wanted more features  when dave had only in itialy given them a few
[15:44] <coz_> intially
[15:44] <coz_> damn fingers
[15:44] <coz_> inititially
[15:44] <coz_> damn l;ol
[15:44] <coz_> initially
[15:44] <darkmatter> ;';
[15:44] <darkmatter> ?
[15:44] <darkmatter> :p
[15:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  my fingers are way too big for this keyboard,, I am becoming accustomed to typos
[15:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  i need to find a big key keyboard
[15:45] <coz_> lol
[15:47] <darkmatter> blogs do not fact make. not saying he's lying, just saying it doesn't make it "first" ;)
[15:47] <darkmatter> Novell was the first pushing compiz _on by default_ back in its young days. just fyi.  I'm not saying I don't like compiz. I do. but I don't base my choices on "who came first" either. if I did I'd still run XFree86. lol
[15:52] <darkmatter> I _love_ what compiz is at it's core. I hate what compiz fusion turned it into. modularity ftw. but "basic modules in by default". not everyone wants emacs for a window manager
[15:52] <darkmatter> theres too much fluff in compiz, and not enough filling
[15:53] <darkmatter> once again, thats just a matter of packaging
[15:53] <darkmatter> but you get the point
[15:53] <vish> darkmatter: what does that even mean^ ?
[15:53] <vish> "not enough filling"
[15:54] <darkmatter> vish: tis a euphemism. look it up :P
[15:54] <vish> darkmatter: almost what they are trying to recreate in mutter has existed in compiz for a long long while
[15:55] <vish> darkmatter: i basically dont see the point to re-doing a new window manager , if you are basically going to be doing the same things again..
[15:55] <vish> compiz is just a set of a whole lot of bling.. what you dont need just done use it, its as simple as that
[15:55] <darkmatter> vish: so? lets drop kwin too. it recreates compiz features!
[15:55] <darkmatter> for crying out loud. all I said is "there is nothing wrong with mutter"
[15:55] <darkmatter> next thing you know I'll get lynched for liking windows 7
[15:56] <coz_> yes please drop kwin
[15:56] <vish> haha!
[15:56] <coz_> what a rediculous rip off of compiz and one on a DE that is already resource intensive,, redicuilous
[15:57] <vish> darkmatter: basically half of what mutter is doing or is planning to do is just what compiz could do 5yrs ago o.0
[15:57] <vish> compiz can be bare bones too!
[15:57] <vish> and the stupid thing is mutter can not work on legacy hardware..
[15:58] <vish> so basically anyone using mutter as a WM is trying to act like Windows. if you want new version of Windows you need new hardware
[15:58] <darkmatter> and what about the other half? oh, wait. compiz can't do that because it requires heavy handed integration. :P
[15:58] <darkmatter> vish: I'm ON legacy hardware
[15:59] <darkmatter> mutter works fine
[15:59] <vish> darkmatter: i dont think you are  on real legacy hardware ;p see their wiki page
[16:01] <darkmatter> vish. FX 5200. that counts as legacy by the wiki standards, so :P
[16:01] <vish> darkmatter: maybe you are lucky, but not everyone.. ;)
[16:01] <coz_> darkmatter,   I have a lesser machine and I admit compiz doesnt run smoothly,, and this is indeed a problem,, but  as it progresses and especially with the c++ verson ,, things are improving,,
[16:02] <darkmatter> and most of mutters "hardware" issues are "software" issues. it's called get nvidiot and crapti to update drivers properly ;)
[16:02] <vish> darkmatter: so those people are forced to use old gnome-panel when GNOME3 comes out..
[16:02] <coz_> darkmatter,  I have that card on that machine as well
[16:03] <vish> i really dont not understand their point of doing things only in mutter and telling compiz to sod off..  there is no possible way that things can ONLY be done like how it is now.. if it is so, then either the mutter/shell developers are soo basically ignorant to do WM things right
[16:03] <darkmatter> to heck with it! I hate anything that changes! *pulls out slackware 3.5 and installs*
[16:03] <darkmatter> *grumbles*
[16:04] <vish> darkmatter: i dont mind changing the interaction, and doing any of the designs right now in compiz ;)
[16:04] <vish> basically them shutting out compiz made it possible for Unity to even exist
[16:05] <vish> or rather much more easier
[16:05] <darkmatter> I can't run compiz in pekwm! ignorant pekwm developers! *grumbles* ;)
[16:06] <vish> darkmatter: you dont seem to be getting the point, though mutter existed earlier, they are doing the whole mutter dev *for* Shell and changing a lot of things..
[16:07] <vish> this is something that is being done new
[16:07] <vish> and there seems no point in re-doing things again and for no perceivable benefit
[16:08] <coz_> damn gome developers :)
[16:09] <darkmatter> vish: vish you're missing the point as well. it doesn't _matter_. well, actually, it does. because mutter runs more efficiently here than compiz 0.9x. with or without unity. I win because I can still use my rustbucket *and* have eyecandy.
[16:09] <darkmatter> choice is good. :D
[16:10] <coz_> this is true ^^^^^^^^^
[16:10] <vish> choice is good.. ;)
[16:10] <coz_> absolutely  true
[16:10] <coz_> which is why I hate gome developers lol
[16:10] <vish> but at what cost? Ubuntu is not going to be shipping Shell anytime in the near future
[16:10] <coz_> they do not have that phylosophy
[16:10] <vish> and Ubuntu is the largest distributor of GNOME..
[16:10] <coz_> thank  god,, krishna etc etc :)
[16:10] <darkmatter> coz_: you have a choice. you can choose to run fallback with compiz
[16:10] <darkmatter> lol
[16:11] <darkmatter> I've actually done it :P
[16:11] <coz_> darkmatter,   cool   and i will take that choice :)
[16:11] <darkmatter> just for kicks
[16:11] <darkmatter> like mutter better
[16:11] <coz_> compiz rules  dude !
[16:11] <coz_> lol
[16:11] <darkmatter> coz_: by better I mean (on this hardware)
[16:12] <darkmatter> err. (/"
[16:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  I completely understand,, and it does irritate me that  linux may be getting to the point...soon.. where it may not run on lesser systems... with or withouth compiz
[16:12] <darkmatter> dun ask me how I managed that flight of fingers
[16:12] <coz_> lol
[16:13] <coz_> plus if there is no compiz I cannot update the ccsm icons.. and then what will i do ??? :)
[16:13] <vish> lol!!
[16:14] <coz_> ok guys,, it is nearing lunch time here.. need to get some fruit or something ... be back in a bit  :)
[16:14] <darkmatter> coz_: the problem is thus: it's not because of mutter/compiz/kwin alone. _most_ uncomposited linux(s) have obseleted legacy hardware already. it's a reality of evloving software technology
[16:16] <darkmatter> like it or not. it is the way of things
[16:36] <coz_> and another thing!  lol
[16:37] <darkmatter> - darkmatter, 09:14 -
[16:37] <darkmatter> coz_: the problem is thus: it's not because of mutter/compiz/kwin alone. _most_ uncomposited linux(s) have obseleted legacy hardware already. it's a reality of evloving software technology
[16:37] <darkmatter> like it or not. it is the way of things
[16:37] <darkmatter> sad but true ^
[16:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that is an issue for sure
[16:38] <darkmatter> coz_: at least its not a mac! :P
[16:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[16:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  well mac is "ok"  it is out of date in my opinion,, especially their menuing system which was designed to save realestate on 9" screens,, now ubunt has gone global menu,,  essentially identical to macs menus
[16:39] <darkmatter> yeah. like. to run our os (if your not a hacker who wants to spend DAYS illegally installing it on x86) you need this incredibly overpriced yet shiny new box over here....
[16:40] <coz_> the problem is that mac has not seen the inefficiency of their menuing system
[16:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[16:40] <darkmatter> not knocking apple hardware. but christ... I can get 4 comparable x86 systems fr the price of one. lol
[16:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  but there is no longer mac hardware,, they no longer manufacture it ,, it is all pc hardware gone t hrough extensive  systems integration now
[16:41] <coz_> thus the expense
[16:41] <darkmatter> yeah. same difference
[16:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  yet they cling to an  out of date menuing system because now it is  "mac" identifyable
[16:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  and when I see ubuntu  moving to a mac like interface,, global menu,, buttons on the left,, I get worried
[16:42] <darkmatter> and then there's unity...
[16:42] <coz_> oy  yes and then there is unity
[16:42] <darkmatter> ubuntu should rebrand to "I Wish I was a Mac(tm) GNU/Linux ;p
[16:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  the mistake I think they are making is that Unity sh ould  be Unity1  a separate install from  Ubuntu
[16:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)  I agree
[16:44] <darkmatter> if only nvidia would hurry up and fix the glx in the 173 drivers I'd be an extra happy camper. lol
[16:44] <darkmatter> they're supposedly working on it
[16:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that is the downside of nvidia,,, the chipset itself is quite remarkable but their drivers never fully take advantage of it
[16:45] <coz_> and they are slow for linux driver issues
[16:47] <coz_> at least that's how I see it
[16:47] <darkmatter> coz_: seriously. mutter/compiz/kwin all fail in there own unique ways on the proprietary 173xx drivers. on nouveau... not an issue (by not an issue I mean "they work')
[16:47] <darkmatter> sure, compiz still has some tearing (not as bad as proprietary)
[16:47] <darkmatter> but all three run
[16:48] <darkmatter> kwin fails miserably on the proprietaries with compositing enabled
[16:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  I agree,, but i still stand by the reason new users come to linux,, youtube  search for Ubuntu and most of the videos are about compiz in general
[16:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh kwin is a pain in the ass  quite frankly
[16:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  i think kde is quite beautiful... great looks,, really poor perforance
[16:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  kde is definitly not for lesser or mid range systems.. a huge mistake on their part
[16:51] <darkmatter> coz_: only _half_ the window redraws on 173xx with compositing in kwin. and people that complain about mutter being slow on the same drivers (it's a glx issue, not mutters fault. nvidia overwrites the default glx with there proprietary version (with less features)) has never tried kwin. :P
[16:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  ah yes,,
[16:53] <darkmatter> coz_: an any system (nvidia drivers in use) where shell/mutter lag. if you run a dbug output you'll see a bazillion glx errors.
[16:54] <coz_> darkmatter,  most likely ,,, and I agree it is nvidia and its drives probably at fault,,,
[16:54] <darkmatter> most of the so-called hardware issues are in fact _software_. it's not an issue with the new cards/drivers, since the libraries are updated with greater frequency
[16:55] <coz_> darkmatter,  which is why they should open source the damn drivers... how many  proprietary companies  drool over open source developers especially t he driver  developers
[16:55] <darkmatter> but. nvidia needs to either quite replacing stuff or upgrde there crap. lol
[16:56] <coz_> darkmatter,  if it were open sourced their sales would increase since the drivers would be better
[16:56] <darkmatter> coz_: it's a hardware dev trick. they WANT you to upgrade. I mean. I know the capabilities of this card just based off its components. it may be old, but its no slouch
[16:57] <coz_> darkmatter,  very true,, and as I said, nvidia chipses are quite remarkable with their capabilites
[16:57] <coz_> damn drivers
[16:57] <coz_> chipsets rather
[16:57] <darkmatter> coz_: most likely. I mean, I was hesitant about nouveau. but the few bits I've tested (incluyding some gaming) I get more FPS than the nvidia blobs. lol
[16:58] <darkmatter> somehing smell funky, and its not me
[16:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah nouveau has a chance  ,, just imagine though if nvidia  open sourced the drivers
[16:59] <darkmatter> coz_: yes. the benefits of nvidias specifics merged with the bits that nouveau does. :O
[16:59] <darkmatter> I'd have a geekgasm
[16:59] <coz_> lol
[17:00] <darkmatter> I _love_ nvidia hardware. but seriously... D.R.I.V.E.R.S.
[17:00] <coz_> darkmatter,  definitly agree
[17:02] <coz_> darkmatter,  as far as my opinion goes.. nvidia chipsets   are great,, now we need nouveau to show nvidia what they can actually do
[17:03] <darkmatter> yup
[17:04] <darkmatter> its getting there. particularily on the older chipsets. still has a way to go on the newer ones
[17:04] <darkmatter> but I _never_ thought I'd like a freetard video driver. lol
[17:04] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure,, as I said , if nvidia would only opensource the drivers... their sales would increase
[17:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)  freetard  drivers
[17:06] <darkmatter> coz_: exactly. nouveau breathed new life into this card on linux. nvidia's drivers are more feature rich, but don't take full advantage of their chipses. open sourcing and combining efforts .... oh boy
[17:06] <darkmatter> dream come true
[17:07] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure,, maybe nvidia will see the benefits  financially if they opensource
[17:07] <darkmatter> coz_: or if they don't opensource, at least hire the nouveau devs :P
[17:08] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh yeah , well  I dont know if the nouveau people would do that,,  would be interesting
[17:08] <darkmatter> coz_: thus the ":P"
[17:08] <coz_> :)
[17:09] <darkmatter> I mean. it's just a driver. lol. if they wanna keep wraps on certain bits. they can have lgpl and link there "miniblob" against the opensource primary
[17:09] <darkmatter> that would work as well
[17:10] <darkmatter> their*
[17:10] <darkmatter> coz_: either/or. as long as they do _something_
[17:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure
[17:11] <darkmatter> as they say. there's more than one way to skin a cat
[17:12] <coz_> darkmatter,   ture but I like cats !! :)
[17:13] <darkmatter> coz_: "any" open source license would do, even if it was of there own defining. as long as it passes the test
[17:13] <coz_> darkmatter,  I ,, as usual ,, agree :)
[17:14] <darkmatter> I mean, even _MICROSOFT_ has _two_ of them. and there the kings of the closed :P
[17:14] <darkmatter> they're
[17:14] <darkmatter> lol. brain is shutting down. I hope I get tired soon xD
[17:15] <coz_> :)  see  arguements can lead to sleep :)
[17:19] <darkmatter> coz_: I forsee death of this crt in a few weeks. it's been at the "takes forever to warm up" stage for about two months. lol
[17:19] <darkmatter> thankfully I have numerable spares
[17:19] <darkmatter> I should really invest in an lcd
[17:20] <coz_> darkmatter,  that I understand,, I have had monitors die on me   I dont like that :)
[17:21] <darkmatter> coz_: the deaths here are usually quite dramatic *fizzle* *screen starts going concave at the sides. turns pinkish*..... shrink... *RREALLY LOUD POP*
[17:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  oo loud pops generally mean  capacitors
[17:22] <darkmatter> yup
[17:22] <darkmatter> occasionally flybacks too
[17:24] <darkmatter> coz_: one death was fault insulation. high pitched squeal. gotta love plasma arcs xD
[17:24] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[17:24] <coz_> darkmatter,   I have a few spare 15" crts here,, I would hate to have to use them
[17:24] <coz_> dual 15"  is NOT  nice
[17:25] <darkmatter> coz_: next on my list is my 19" compaq. its a patch job. works, but occasionally needs a gentle whap (tube squeals. lol)
[17:26] <darkmatter> but it works. just old and often repared
[17:26] <coz_> darkmatter,  got to love the "whaps"  hardware
[17:26] <darkmatter> keep it goi til it implodes
[17:27] <darkmatter> coz_: ah. yet another "experienced in the fine art of slapping technology" I see :)
[17:27] <coz_> for sure
[17:28] <coz_> ok  I have to break here,, family needs groceries,, be back in a while
[17:30] <mainerror> hello


[08:34] <tsdgeos> Saviq: what do you think of https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity8/dierfv ?
[08:34] <Saviq> tsdgeos, surprise, did we not use it in the end?
[08:35] <tsdgeos> Saviq: we were using this only for the screenshots thing
[08:35] <tsdgeos> in the old apps scope
[08:35] <MacSlow> tsdgeos, hm... that is odd... the "if"-issue
[08:35] <tsdgeos> MacSlow: it's what jenkins says :D
[08:35] <Saviq> tsdgeos, ah, Flow...
[08:35] <tsdgeos> Saviq: yep
[08:35] <MacSlow> tsdgeos, jenkins is my personal enemy ;)
[08:36] <Saviq> tsdgeos, now I remember, I even got to that conclusion when I first saw your MP, still confusing this with Journals ;)
[08:36] <Saviq> tsdgeos, yeah, +1 of course
[08:36] <tsdgeos> Saviq: he he
[08:36] <tsdgeos> Saviq: ok :)
[08:43] <tsdgeos> MacSlow: you can not reproduce locally?
[08:43] <MacSlow> tsdgeos, just trying... but thunderbird is messing up my system, thus everytihng is dog-slow
[08:44] <MacSlow> and exiting thunderbird takes its time too :)
[08:44]  * MacSlow just can't get the hang of mutt
[08:58] <Saviq> seb128, do you have plans to land ubuntu-system-settings into rtm? or should I talk to someone else?
[08:58] <seb128> Saviq, ken has been handling the rtm landing, I can do one but better to sync up with him first
[08:58] <Saviq> seb128, ok, will do
[08:58] <seb128> Saviq, plans we have yes, there are a stack of fixes that should go to rtm or ota1
[08:59] <Saviq> yup
[08:59]  * Saviq preps unity8 alone then
[08:59] <seb128> what fixes do you lan?
[08:59] <seb128> d
[09:08] <MacSlow> tsdgeos, I've fixed the if-issue... but still have to iron out a part of the dismiss-test (sync/confirmation notifications were not available when I initially worked on the swipe-to-dismiss branch)
[09:09] <tsdgeos> ok
[09:09] <MacSlow> tsdgeos, I'll mark my branch as "wip" for the time being.
[09:09] <Saviq> seb128, the accepted ones from the recent unity8 release https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/8.01+15.04.20141107.2-0ubuntu1
[09:34] <seb128> Saviq, hey, could you look at the current comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-system-settings/+bug/1390643 and comment on what you think is the best approach between those suggested?
[09:40] <Saviq> seb128, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-system-settings/+bug/1390643/comments/3
[09:40] <seb128> Saviq, thanks
[10:05] <mzanetti> Saviq: hey, what happened to the fact that we only lock the screen when waking up, as opposed to locking it before going to sleep?
[10:06] <mzanetti> iirc you once said there's a branch fixing it
[10:07] <Saviq> mzanetti, there were some approaches, but none that we implemented yet
[10:08] <Saviq> mzanetti, not a problem on krillin, so lower prio
[10:08] <mzanetti> ah ok
[10:09] <mzanetti> interesting... why isn't it a problem on krillin? display waking up slower?
[10:09] <Saviq> mzanetti, yup
[10:13] <mzanetti> Saviq: may I assign the RTM ones to you? given you do the cherry-picks... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-rtm/+source/qtmir/+bug/1351559
[10:14] <Saviq> mzanetti, yeah, I should've done that
[10:14] <mzanetti> no prob
[10:33] <seb128> Saviq, if you use a Binding{} in the other way around too, don't you create a binding loop?
[10:34] <Saviq> seb128, kinda, but it's quickly interrupted by if (old != new) in all the setters
[10:35] <seb128> Saviq, well, it makes a warning be printed on stdout
[10:35] <Saviq> seb128, so even if you get a warning, it's benign
[10:35] <seb128> or stderr
[10:35] <seb128> I don't like getting warnings ;-)
[10:35] <Saviq> seb128, yes, that's why we need a BidirectionalBinding { } ;)
[10:36] <seb128> when is that coming? ;-)
[10:53] <mzanetti> Saviq: is there something like that in the works yet?
[10:54] <Saviq> mzanetti, not really, we were considering it with dednick at some point
[10:54] <Saviq> seb128, patches welcome ;)
[10:55] <mzanetti> well, so far I have decent results with Binding {} from backend to ui, and using ui's onClicked handler to change the backend value
[10:55] <mzanetti> that's what I usually do in my apps
[10:55] <mzanetti> but I agree QML should make it somewhat easier
[10:56] <dednick> Saviq, seb128, mzanetti: there was something for that in the ubuntu-settings-components check sync branch, but seb didnt want a special component.
[10:57] <seb128> dednick, I didn't say I don't want a special component, but rather than it should be in the uitk
[10:57] <mzanetti> -1
[10:57] <dednick> https://code.launchpad.net/~nick-dedekind/ubuntu-settings-components/lp1336715.check.sync
[10:57] <mzanetti> should be upstream Qt
[10:57] <seb128> mzanetti, that's "toolkit" for me
[10:57] <seb128> so +1 for qt directly
[10:57] <mzanetti> seb128: you said uitk :D
[10:58] <seb128> I didn't know if it makes sense for qt
[10:58] <seb128> but the more upstream/mainstream it can be, the better
[10:58] <dednick> hm. not sure if it makes sense for qt
[10:58] <mzanetti> I'd say yes... some sort of UiBinding {} component
[10:58] <dednick> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~nick-dedekind/ubuntu-settings-components/lp1336715.check.sync/view/head:/Ubuntu/Settings/Components/signalbinder.h
[10:58] <Saviq> mzanetti, problem is you might need to do some reconciliation, especially in the case of floats and such, like which value should you decide on if both sides changed, what if one side is slow to apply etc.
[10:59] <mzanetti> right...
[10:59] <mzanetti> still I guess there could be something useful... if you need very special stuff you can do it the old way
[10:59] <mzanetti> but yeah... there's a danger of making the mistake the uitk does... trying to be too clever and in the end not being useful for anyone
[11:00] <Saviq> totally
[11:00]  * mzanetti thinks of some listitems
[11:02] <dednick> i could propose a branch for the uitk which includes the signal binder. i think the implmentations of the switch/check are to specific for uitk.
[11:08] <facundobatista> Hola
[11:49] <Saviq> mzanetti, hah, splash screens are not antialiased ;)
[12:02] <mzanetti> meh
[13:04] <Saviq> mzanetti, hum, is it right that music app seems to be exempt from lifecycle still?
[13:05] <mzanetti> yes
[13:05] <mzanetti> still no playing music from apps in ubuntu :/
[13:11] <Saviq> ah, playlist progression :|
[13:11] <Saviq> is what we're missing
[13:11] <Saviq> mzanetti, and yes, we know your feeling on our lifecycle ;P
[13:14] <mzanetti> it wouldn't be so bad if I would see any progress on the background stuff
[13:27] <mzanetti> dandrader: ping
[13:27] <dandrader> mzanetti, pong
[13:27] <mzanetti> dandrader: hey, having some weird issue with the EdgeDragArea. maybe it makes sense to you:
[13:28] <mzanetti> dandrader: so I start dragging at the right edge and move the finger all across the screen to wards left
[13:28] <mzanetti> 2 grid units *before* reaching the left edge, dragging goes to false
[13:29] <mzanetti> (not sure about the 2 grid units - its some half centimeter)
[13:29] <dandrader> mzanetti, enable debug logs for TouchRegistry and DDA and then show me the log
[13:31] <mzanetti> dandrader: that debug output is really useful :D
[13:31] <mzanetti> problem solved
[13:31] <dandrader> mzanetti, so, what was it?
[13:31] <mzanetti> enabled went to false
[13:31] <mzanetti> so it makes sense
[13:31] <dandrader> mzanetti, :D
[13:31] <mzanetti> kinda hard to figure otherwise
[13:31] <mzanetti> but seems you did a good job with that debug stuff
[13:32] <dandrader> glad you liked it
[14:20] <mzanetti> dandrader: hey, this report came in. do you think this could be anything related to missing input? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1391149
[14:21] <mzanetti> dandrader: if you think no, let's assign it to mterry, otherwise could you have a look?
[14:26] <dandrader> mzanetti, looks like it could be related to the TouchGate in Greeter.qml. But I would rather keep working on shell rotation as I'm on a tight schedule
[14:26] <mzanetti> dandrader: sure... just wanted to have some first assessment to know where to push it to
[14:26] <dandrader> mzanetti, I will add a comment there
[14:26] <mzanetti> thanks
[14:53] <tsdgeos> pstolowski:
[14:53] <tsdgeos> ping
[14:54] <tsdgeos> unping
[15:40] <tedg> Saviq, So it looks like qtmir is raising sigstop after the mir connection is setup, but it seems like that should be later, no?
[15:41] <tedg> Saviq, Like after notifications interfaces and other stuff U8 provides are setup?
[15:42] <Saviq> tedg, well, as I commented I think it'd be better, if possible, if the indicators tried to reconnect
[15:42] <Saviq> tedg, depends on the definition of unity8 'started'
[15:43] <tedg> Saviq, The problem is that it's not a "reconnect" issue for notification, but the bigger issue is pulse. QtMir is initializing Mir quicker than Pulse can get setup.
[15:43] <Saviq> and it's kinda tricky because we'd have to explicitly wait for all the services we know we're waiting on to say "yeah, we good, go!"
[15:43] <tedg> Saviq, We can't depend on pulse because the upstart job is an touch-specific thing :-/
[15:44]  * tedg hates on the ubuntu-touch-session package a bit
[15:44] <tedg> Saviq, Confused? You mean plugins or services?
[15:44] <Saviq> tedg, well, so us pushing the sigstop further could just mean we're hiding the other issue?
[15:44] <Saviq> tedg, plugins == services
[15:44] <Saviq> tedg, like the notifications service is a plugin
[15:44] <Saviq> everything is a plugin, really
[15:44] <tedg> Saviq, Ah, okay. That's confusing to me. Not sure why things shipped together need dynamic loading :-)
[15:45] <tedg> Saviq, So I was thinking just an idle function, when the mainloop gets idle then raise the SIGSTOP.
[15:45] <Saviq> oh I'm afraid that's gonna be far too late
[15:46] <tedg> Why?
[15:46] <tedg> It seems like that's when things have finished their work.
[15:46] <tedg> Keep in mind that it should happen faster if we stop the CPU from context switching to indicators and the such by removing them from competing for CPU.
[15:49] <Saviq> tedg, well, that's counter to the fact that ogra wants to start everything in parallel, as early as possible ;)
[15:49] <Saviq> tedg, because that would mean the UI is set up, the dash started and stopped drawing, things like that
[15:50] <Saviq> tedg, so you'd actually be able to start using your phone and only then would indicators show up (or well, they wouldn't at all, if you used the phone enough)
[15:50] <Saviq> tedg, as for "why plugins", all kinds of reasons
[15:50] <tedg> Generally the goal isn't to start everything at once.
[15:51] <tedg> You just want as many things as you have cores.
[15:52] <Saviq> kinda difficult to encode in upstart events
[15:52] <tedg> It seems to me that there has to be a point where the Unity8 mainloop goes idle.
[15:53] <tedg> Generally things like phases come out of the setup of the Upstart events.
[15:53] <tedg> Not officially, but causally. So for instance, we don't limit the indicators to a number, but start them after so that they end up staying out of the way.
[15:54] <Saviq> tedg, unity8's main loop (i.e. the one on the first thread) is actually Mir, not the Qt one, where all the dbus things happen
[15:55] <tedg> Ah, okay. So would it be better to put a signal from the U8 application object when it thinks that it's done loading plugins?
[15:56] <tedg> Or do they all delay their inits?
[16:01] <Saviq> tedg, it's not just about loading, we'd need each "interesting" bit to report when they're ready
[16:01] <Saviq> tedg, as you're interested when it actually registers the name on dbus, not earlier than that
[16:01] <tedg> Saviq, Sure, that's why I was asking if the init was delayed. Sounds like it is.
[16:03] <tedg> I really feel like we should be more honest in the Unity8 startup reporting to Upstart.
[16:03] <Saviq> tedg, so if pulse is the real issue, how would delaying "unity8 started" even help? by chance?
[16:03] <tedg> But it is looking to me like this isn't an "rtm sized" fix.
[16:03] <Saviq> tedg, I think we just need to be more granular actually
[16:03] <Saviq> tedg, each service should emit its own 'foo-started' signal
[16:03] <tedg> Saviq, Well it's just that indicators are getting started exactly at the same time as pulse.
[16:04] <tedg> Saviq, Almost any delay would help.
[16:04] <Saviq> tedg, well, yeah, but that's by chance, meaning that you could just as well put "sleep 2" in there...
[16:04] <tedg> Thinking we might have to override in ubuntu-touch-session until that pulse job can be pushed upstream.
[16:05] <tedg> Sure, but trying to fix the problem more than put a sleep in.
[16:05] <tedg> I think the "fixish" is just to override indicator sound to be "start on indicators-start and started pulseaudio"
[16:05] <tedg> But that can only be in touch, not desktop.
[16:06] <Saviq> tedg, sounds like a good idea to add an .override then?
[16:07] <tedg> Saviq, Yeah, I don't like that solution, but looking like the best right now.
[16:07] <tedg> Saviq, I would still like to move the indicators signal into post-start though if that's cool with you.
[16:07] <tedg> Saviq, It doesn't fix the bug, but seems more correct.
[16:07] <Saviq> tedg, sure
[17:10] <MacSlow> Cimi, what about https://code.launchpad.net/~macslow/unity8/icon-clipping-fix-1378417/+merge/241097 ... did you review it yet?
[17:11] <Cimi> MacSlow, looked like a no brainer
[17:11] <MacSlow> Cimi, sure... but you've not touched it :)
[17:11] <Cimi> MacSlow, if you cannot think of any possibly wrong cases, let's approve
[17:11] <Cimi> MacSlow, yeah sorry...
[17:11] <MacSlow> Cimi, np... that's why I asked :)
[17:33] <MacSlow> Cimi, thx