[00:53] <animalprimate> #join ubuntu-beginners
[03:22] <arand> I have someone who has been dropped to the maintenance shell on a failed fsck, I would suggest running "fsck -fy" but I've had diverse comments on the propriety of that, what do you say?
[03:23] <persia> I say we need better advertisement of good second-level support channels :)
[03:23] <jdong> arand: it can or cannot be the correct thing to do :)
[03:23] <jdong> arand: the "correct" thing to do is do a dd type full backup before attempting a fsck -fy on a corrupted disk
[03:23] <persia> fsck -fy will either fix or competely break the filesystem, depending on the way in which it's broken.  It's very hard to know which will happen in advance without detailed knowledge.
[03:24] <Tm_T> basic rule with everything: avoid --force (;
[03:24] <jdong> Tm_T: except for fsck, IMO
[03:25] <jdong> e2fsck especially may ask you a million (not exaggerating) y/n questions without -f
[03:25] <jdong> and ^C on a fsck is bad etiquette if you regret your decision
[03:25] <Tm_T> jdong: and usually with good reason
[03:25] <jdong> and job control is unavailable in the rescue shell
[03:25] <jdong> Tm_T: indeed. as persia said, fsck -fy is the close-eyes-and-pull-trigger repair method :)
[03:26] <Tm_T> like installing packages with "dpkg -i --force-all"
[03:26] <jdong> oh that's typically just a bad idea period :)
[03:28] <arand> Ok, /home is on separate partition, so I intend to recommend the trigger...
[03:29] <jdong> arand: please give a you-should-dd-if-you-care disclaimer first :)
[03:29] <jdong> there is a nonzero risk of completely trashing the filesystem and ending up worse than where he is now
[03:29] <persia> arand: Try recommending to boot a liveCD first, perform a dd backup, force-mount the filesystem, attempt to extract /etc, and then pull the trigger.  That makes is less likely to be horrible when something goes wrong.
[03:29] <persia> Does anyone remember the channel name that was *supposed* to provide second-level support?
[03:30] <Tm_T> persia: #kubuntu
[03:30] <jdong> there's second-level support?
[03:30]  * Tm_T hides
[03:30] <jdong> #ubuntu-devel?
[03:30] <jdong> ;-)
[03:32] <persia> :p
[03:32]  * persia reads mail archives
[10:36] <arand> Is kokoveron in #ubuntu a bot? has been told countless times to stop...
[10:36] <arand> oh, nvm
[10:45] <Myrtti> next time will end up him being banned
[10:45] <Myrtti> like so
[11:22] <erUSUL> !grub2
[11:29] <rww> erUSUL: You can do /msg ubottu !factoid instead of calling them randomly in channels...
[11:30] <erUSUL> rww: ok; did not know it was so annoying given the activity of this channel. but point taken
[12:09] <DJones> Might be worth keeping an eye on crixtiano in #u looking at the command they've just posted, enough people have warned them about it
[18:58] <GPenguin> leche: please invite the other asperger guy k1l too
[19:00] <GPenguin> [20:00] <GPenguin> wenn sich leute schon "kill" nennen kannst du raten was kommt wenn du eine andere meinung vertrittst
[19:00] <GPenguin> [20:00] * ChanServ gives channel operator status to sdx23
[19:00] <GPenguin> [20:00] * You have been kicked from #ubuntu-de by sdx23 (you should know better)
[19:00] <GPenguin> absolutely against the Code of Conduct
[19:00] <GPenguin> AGAIN;
[19:01] <GPenguin> so bring these people online, i need to escalate this
[19:01] <k1l> hi
[19:01] <bekks> hi k1l
[19:01] <GPenguin> the asperger syndrome can not rule #ubuntu-de
[19:01] <GPenguin> we have the code of conduct for a reason
[19:01] <k1l> GPenguin: what about u stop ur private war?
[19:01] <GPenguin> and we want to be respectful
[19:02] <GPenguin> k1l: and we dont want to speak about war only because your language is full of violence
[19:02] <bekks> you are not respectful since calling others to have asperger.
[19:02] <GPenguin> why?
[19:02] <GPenguin> i think you are too immature for IRC
[19:02] <bekks> i dont know WHY you are acting that way, but you are.
[19:02] <GPenguin> bring the chat log to #ubuntu-irc and show me one sign of disrespect from my side
[19:02] <k1l> what about u accept the channel rules and keep the support-channel clear for support. ur offtopic doesnt belong to the supportchannel
[19:03] <k1l> and to flame about my nick doesnt make u act respectfull
[19:03] <GPenguin> a person with asperger who gives himself the name "kill" who is defacing beginners and banning quickly is addressed by me not as sign of disrespect but because its growing out to a massive problem on the german chat rooms
[19:04] <GPenguin> and bekks is suspcious to have asperger too
[19:04] <k1l> even to call all supporters to have the asperger syndrom
[19:04] <GPenguin> means they disqualify for moderation roles
[19:04] <bekks> GPenguin: please stop your suspicions.
[19:04] <GPenguin> because they bring violent language to the german ubuntu channels
[19:04] <k1l> the support channel got a quite good standing in the freenode services. so what is ur real problem with this?
[19:04] <bekks> I am no moderator nor op anyway.
[19:04] <GPenguin> they constantly attack newbies with the comment "your question is off-topic" while the situation asks for a polite welcome to these people
[19:05] <k1l> GPenguin: u wanna make a private war to become admin?
[19:05] <GPenguin> what?
[19:05] <GPenguin> i want german ubuntu channels to be newbie friendly
[19:05] <k1l> GPenguin: they are
[19:05] <GPenguin> if you dont stop with your nonesense about war i can escalate to the mailing lists
[19:05] <k1l> lol
[19:06] <GPenguin> thats funny for you?
[19:06] <k1l> u r talking about escalating all the time
[19:06] <GPenguin> thats a hint with polite language, you speak about war which is violent
[19:06] <k1l> we tried to find a way with u in our own admin channel. u got very rude so u got kicked
[19:06] <GPenguin> thats a hint with polite language, you speak about war which is violent
[19:06] <GPenguin> show my rudeness
[19:06] <GPenguin> i am curious
[19:06] <leche> # 20:18:09 <dfs> [20:13] * [alamar] (~alamar@BOfH.euirc.net): Julian D. Seifert
[19:06] <GPenguin> thats old rubbish
[19:07] <leche> http://nopaste.euirc.net/index.php?id=06a48b6ac9
[19:07] <leche> heres your rudeness
[19:07] <GPenguin> thats DAYS OLD
[19:07] <GPenguin> today, we have the 2nd of march young boy
[19:07] <GPenguin> quote something from today that shows rudeness
[19:07] <k1l> GPenguin: stop trolling around
 bekks: GPenguin hat hier zum Thema gesprochen.
[19:08] <GPenguin> that was right before you banned me, JERKFACE.
[19:08] <k1l> *sigh*
[19:08] <bekks> well, please dont mix around multiple conversation streams.
[19:08] <k1l> thats all. bb guys
[19:08] <GPenguin> you disqualify for moderation roles because you call me a troll
[19:08] <bekks> ME, i was talking with bullgard.
[19:08] <bekks> and I'd better leave too. byebye.
[19:09] <GPenguin> ---
[19:09] <GPenguin> i join right now:
[19:09] <GPenguin> [20:09] <GPenguin> bullgard: komm mal bitte auf #ubuntu-irc
[19:09] <GPenguin> [20:09] * ChanServ gives channel operator status to k1l
[19:09] <GPenguin> [20:09] * You have left channel #ubuntu-de (requested by k1l (GPenguin))
[19:09] <GPenguin> see how abusive they are?
[19:09] <GPenguin> and this paste from leche was a private conversation from days ago which was happening on a totally different network
[19:10] <GPenguin> its on somebody with higher priviledges within the IRC Team to stop these asperger people and their violent attitude
[19:10] <leche> do i need to paste the conversation in #ubuntu-de-op too?
[19:11] <GPenguin> because we are slowly getting a climate like on #debian.de on german ubuntu channels
[19:11] <GPenguin> i am willing to bring this up on #freenode again if nobody feels called
[19:11] <GPenguin> and i am also willing to post to several mailing lists if 1 single person calls me a troll again
[19:12] <leche> they will tell you again they wont do anything
[19:12] <GPenguin> or bans me for no rule violation
[19:12] <GPenguin> leche: shut the heck up already
[19:12] <leche> thats it, you violated the rules
[19:12] <Myrtti> GPenguin: quite rude...
[19:12] <GPenguin> leche: go back to your playground
[19:12] <GPenguin> Myrtti: i am fed up already
[19:12] <Tm_T> GPenguin: that's not nicely said, and no there's no excuses for rudeness
[19:13] <GPenguin> Tm_T: if you look at my experiences from the last 7 days, then you are sorry _together_ with me
[19:13] <GPenguin> because we are slowly getting a climate like on #debian.de on german ubuntu channels
[19:13] <GPenguin> thats very frustrating
[19:13] <GPenguin> they are bashing newbies for nonesense
[19:13] <GPenguin> they make up fake rules and ban people
[19:13] <GPenguin> because they obviously suffer from the asperger syndrom and should not play moderation officers
[19:13] <leche> the rules are no fake rules and well documented
[19:14] <GPenguin> leche: i said shut up, i had enough of your nonesense on #ubuntu-de
[19:14] <leche> you referred to read them, though
[19:14] <GPenguin> leche: then show me 1 single rule violation of _today_
[19:14] <GPenguin> [19:59] <GPenguin> aber verlagern wir das besser auf einen admin channel damit sich auch was ändert
[19:14] <GPenguin> [19:59] * KEBA<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu-de
[19:14] <GPenguin> [19:59] <<leche>> GPenguin: der deutsche op channel ist #ubuntu-de-op
[19:14] <GPenguin> [19:59] <<bullgard>> bekks: GPenguin hat hier zum Thema gesprochen.
[19:14] <GPenguin> [19:59] * caillean bewirft die leute mal mit rosa wattebäuschchen *
[19:14] <GPenguin> [19:59] <GPenguin> leche: der reicht hier nicht aus, wir sollten auf #ubuntu-irc
[19:14] <GPenguin> [19:59] <<bekks>> bullgard: ...
[19:14] <GPenguin> [20:00] <GPenguin> bullgard: bitte renne in keinen ban wegen mir
[19:14] <GPenguin> [20:00] <<leche>> bullgard: GPenguin bekks xMine, die diskussion ist hier nun beendet.
[19:14] <GPenguin> [20:00] <<bekks>> leche: ack syn.
[19:14] <GPenguin> [20:00] <GPenguin> wenn sich leute schon "kill" nennen kannst du raten was kommt wenn du eine andere meinung vertrittst
[19:14] <DreamThief> GPenguin: STOP IT
[19:15] <leche> GPenguin: you continued bashing on the situation of #ubuntu-de in the support-chan after 3 ops told you to stop it.
[19:15] <GPenguin> [20:00] * ChanServ gives channel operator status to sdx23
[19:15] <GPenguin> [20:00] * You have been kicked from #ubuntu-de by sdx23 (you should know better)
[19:15] <GPenguin> [20:08] * Now talking on #ubuntu-de
[19:15] <GPenguin> [20:08] * Topic for #ubuntu-de is: Der deutschsprachige Support-Channel von Ubuntu - http://ubuntuusers.de | Channelregeln:  http://tinyurl.com/Channelregeln | Paste:  http://paste.ubuntuusers.de/ | Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de | CoC:  http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Ubuntu/Code_of_Conduct | Offtopic: #ubuntu-de-offtopic | Rufen von OPs mittels "alarm"
[19:15] <DreamThief> lol
[19:15] <DreamThief> jussi01: thx ;)
[19:15] <jussi01> GPenguin: use a pastebin please
[19:15] <GPenguin> "lol, thanks for the ban"  <-- do you finally see what i mean?
[19:15]  * DreamThief .oO( he should rather use a trashbin and put himself inside. )
[19:16] <GPenguin> THAT is their spirit
[19:16] <GPenguin> show me how that complies with the code of conduct
[19:16] <GPenguin> i am curious
[19:16] <Pici> !appeals
[19:16] <GPenguin> because _i_ am the newbie and they are those guys who follow the code of conduct since how long?
[19:16] <GPenguin> Pici: a bit late for an appeal... dont you think?
[19:17] <Pici> GPenguin: Then I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish here.
[19:17] <GPenguin> Pici: which mailing list is best suited for a long, post in german language that covers this problem?
[19:17] <Pici> GPenguin: There is none to my knowledge.
[19:17] <GPenguin> because we are slowly getting a climate like on #debian.de on german ubuntu channels
[19:18] <MenZa> I would say this is a case for the German LoCo team to deal with, perhaps on a forthcoming LoCo meeting?
[19:18] <jussi01> GPenguin: the ircc one mentioned in the !appeals factoid, we have a german speaker who can fill us in
[19:18] <GPenguin> so you guys agree that german ubuntu channels should absorb the hostile and anti social climate of gentoo and debian channels?
[19:18] <KaiL> GPenguin, then we won't discuss this now..
[19:18] <GPenguin> KaiL: not?
[19:18] <GPenguin> so i better bring this up on #freenode?
[19:18] <Pici> GPenguin: I don't think we can make any comment on the situation until we've seen the facts.
[19:18] <jussi01> However, you should of course take it up with the german ops as a first point of call
[19:19] <GPenguin> Pici: you saw facts live on channel ... how they were treating me
[19:19] <DreamThief> GPenguin: come on, the initial problem was your offtopic talk in our support channel und you have been asked to use the offtopic channel. and some of our supporters told you that starting a  discussion about the best irc client would rather lead to a flamewar than something usefull. what's so bad about that?
[19:19] <GPenguin> "lol, thanks for the ban" as reaction when i accidently pasted the log instead of the url
[19:19] <GPenguin> perfect example
[19:19] <GPenguin> no, DreamThief is not telling the truth
[19:19] <leche> he is.
[19:20] <GPenguin> there is a crowd of 5 channel ops who play the super cop who bans fast
[19:20] <DreamThief> you don't need to go off like a rocket.
[19:20] <GPenguin> that is the main problem not me
[19:20] <DreamThief> hm
[19:20] <GPenguin> because i received private messages from a lot of people so far who told me to go on, because they also dont like this anti social climate on #ubuntu-de
[19:20] <GPenguin> i can post to any mailing list you like
[19:21] <leche> do.
[19:21] <DreamThief> come on
[19:21] <GPenguin> or i can keep trying to post to #freenode till somebody gets fedup
[19:21] <MenZa> GPenguin: #freenode has nothing to do with this issue :)
[19:21] <GPenguin> MenZa: harassment of users is a network problem
[19:21] <Pici> #freenode will not interfere with channel operations.
[19:21] <leche> MenZa: he told him 10 times but he didnt want to listen.
[19:21] <leche> they*
[19:21] <DreamThief> d'oh.
[19:21] <DreamThief> I give up with this.
[19:22] <GPenguin> we are slowly getting a hostile and anti social climate like on #debian.de on german ubuntu channels
[19:22] <GPenguin> and it can be seen as harassment of new users from chanops side
[19:22] <GPenguin> thats a network problem
[19:22] <MenZa> Right, would anyone be so kind as to link me to full unedited logs of this, and I'll see if I can make some sense of it
[19:22] <leche> MenZa: do you speak german?
[19:22] <DreamThief> GPenguin: well but what do you think your behaviour will lead to?
[19:22] <MenZa> leche: Nur ein Bisschen, aber ich kann viel verstanden :)
[19:22] <bullgard> I support GPenguin's point of view.
[19:23] <GPenguin> Pici: i name you 4-5 people who should move from their moderation position from #ubuntu-de to #debian.de and everything is fine
[19:23] <GPenguin> so the rest of us can welcome new users as the code of conduct suggests
[19:24] <KaiL> "us"?
[19:24] <bullgard> Yes: us.
[19:24] <bullgard> The ubuntu community.
[19:24] <KaiL> I haven't seen you before...
[19:24] <bullgard> If you have seen me before is irrelevant.
[19:25] <KaiL> not you, the Penguin
[19:25] <bullgard> KaiL: So please make more precise startements, ploease.
[19:25] <bullgard> s/startments/statements/
[19:28] <GPenguin> [20:06] <<leche>> # 20:18:09 <dfs> [20:13] * [alamar] (~alamar@BOfH.euirc.net): Julian D. Seifert
[19:28] <GPenguin> [20:07] <GPenguin> thats old rubbish
[19:28] <GPenguin> [20:07] <<leche>> http://nopaste.euirc.net/index.php?id=06a48b6ac9
[19:29] <GPenguin> ^^  and this here has nothing to do with ubuntu or freenode
[19:29] <m4v> GPenguin: please don't paste here
[19:29] <GPenguin> he is a warez guy from euIRC
[19:29] <GPenguin> and IRC-Net
[19:29] <MenZa> I'm reading the logs now.
[19:29] <GPenguin> that was pasted here by leche
[19:29] <GPenguin> MenZa: do you speak some german by chance?
[19:30] <MenZa> GPenguin: Nur ein Bisschen, aber ich verstehe meisteins.
[19:30] <GPenguin> [20:24] <<bullgard>> The ubuntu community.  <-- danke
[19:30] <leche> MenZa: the logs from euirc just show how GPenguin behaves when hes upset.
[19:30] <leche> MenZa: its not the actual incident
[19:30] <leche> wait a moment
[19:30] <GPenguin> MenZa: sorry that you have to go through all the mess from several days ago. it was not my intention to invite these violent chanops to bring this old rubbish up again
[19:31] <leche> this is the actual one: http://pastebin.com/F11sn3Ep
[19:31] <MenZa> leche: I'm looking at the incident from the LoCo bot :)
[19:31] <MenZa> http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2010/03/02/%23ubuntu-de.html
[19:31] <GPenguin> today i was not offending a single rule and was banned twice - again!
[19:31] <leche> yepp
[19:31] <leche> GPenguin: you were
[19:31] <GPenguin> only because they are afraid i could manage that they are removed as chanops
[19:31] <GPenguin> which is what i desire _now_
[19:31] <m4v> GPenguin: you were muted
[19:31] <leche> you were told several times not to do this discussion in the supportchannel.
[19:31] <GPenguin> m4v: same effect, its a ban
[19:31] <m4v> is not.
[19:31] <GPenguin> its violence
[19:31] <GPenguin> for no reason
[19:31] <jussi01> Do the german channels have their own version of guidelines or do you use the english ones we supply?
[19:32] <GPenguin> because i tried to calm bullgard down that nothing happens to him how it happens to me
[19:32] <GPenguin> do you get it?
[19:32] <leche> jussi01: we have a set of rules described here, but Gpenguin refused to read them (link following)
[19:32] <GPenguin> because some german chanops are _violent_
[19:32] <leche> http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/LocoTeam/IRC
[19:32] <GPenguin> leche: especially you. thats why: the asperger syndrome problem
[19:32] <m4v> GPenguin: it wasn't for "no reason" you pasted a full log here
[19:32] <MenZa> I assume you mean "trigger-happy" when you say "violent", GPenguin
[19:32] <bullgard> leche: No, The logs clearly show that GPenguin tried to help newcomers in the #ubuntu-de channel to get answered their questions.
[19:33] <GPenguin> the #debian.de problem mixes
[19:33] <DreamThief> okay, now can you tell me how we can be violent to you if we are interacting via irc ..?
[19:33] <GPenguin> people with asperger syndrome should not play moderation roles, because they are violent chanops
[19:33] <Myrtti> can you people  calm down?
[19:33] <GPenguin> DreamThief: you call people trolls for no reason
[19:33] <GPenguin> newbies are _not_ trolls. they are PEOPLE!
[19:33] <GPenguin> code of conduct!
[19:34] <bullgard> Yes indeed.
[19:34] <MenZa> Right, let me get this straight--#ubuntu-de is a traffic-heavy channel, which, like #ubuntu, encourages offtopic talk in the -offtopic channel. A user requested suggestions for IRC channels, was asked not to ask meta questions, and a number of people joined in to suggest their favourite clients. All in all, a pretty peaceful discussion.
[19:34] <GPenguin> MenZa: correct
[19:34] <DreamThief> GPenguin: come on, you're not the center of the universe. how can you be so damn shure that your sight of the things is the only true?
[19:34] <MenZa> That said, there were calls to take the issue to #ubuntu-de-offtopic
 newbies are _not_ trolls. they are PEOPLE! << well, most of them..
[19:34] <GPenguin> MenZa: but 4-5 people on the access list on #ubuntu-de are taking it too far with their anti social attitude
[19:34] <bullgard> MenZa: Yes.
[19:34] <GPenguin> MenZa: and its ruininig the social climate for the german ubuntu community
[19:35] <MenZa> These calls were ignored, and the discussion escalated, pretty much landing us where we are now.
[19:35] <DreamThief> MenZa: exactly
[19:35] <GPenguin> MenZa: i see that as harassment of users by 4-5 chanops
[19:35] <KaiL> GPenguin, are you trying to make a record in "insults per Minute"?
[19:35] <GPenguin> MenZa: and as you can see is #ubuntu-irc not capable of fixing this problem
[19:35] <GPenguin> KaiL: please shut up if you have nothing positive to add
[19:36] <MenZa> Guys, let's all just *calm* *down*
[19:36] <GPenguin> okay :)
[19:36] <GPenguin> i am calm
[19:36] <MenZa> Insults and spiteful remarks solve nothing; let's be constructive instead
[19:36] <m4v> GPenguin: y'know, you're a pretty violent person for describe a mute as violence
[19:36] <GPenguin> m4v: dude. i fight alone against bans and defacements
[19:36] <GPenguin> only bullgard speaks for me, do you realize that?
[19:36] <bullgard> Some channel operators in #ubuntu-de take the accusation "offtopic" as a big stick to frighten newcomers and get them off the channel.
[19:37] <MenZa> The particular issue in question seems to be a small, rather excusable thing -- user goes offtopic, user is warned, user is kicked, ideally -- situation dissolved.
[19:37] <m4v> GPenguin: you don't need to fight, just talk
[19:37] <GPenguin> so its kind of natural that i get excited, dont you think?
[19:37] <GPenguin> even more natural if you know the problem with #debian.de on Freenode
[19:37] <m4v> GPenguin: we're all hearing you, asking somebody to "shut up" is over the top
[19:37] <GPenguin> there is a reason why i am defending the ubuntu code of conduct against asperger people
[19:37] <MenZa> bullgard: I don't know how high-traffic the -de channel is, nor do I know what policies the LoCo team have put in place. In the -dk channels, we're not too worried if people go meta or directly offtopic in our support channel, but in #ubuntu, it's just too much traffic all at once
[19:38] <GPenguin> m4v: i did not throat punch him :P
[19:38] <leche> MenZa: he did this a few days ago, where a user was told not to ask metaquestions. he nearly flipped out and was really insultin in #ubuntu-de-op
[19:38] <Tm_T> GPenguin: stop using the "asperger" as some kind of insult
[19:38] <GPenguin> leche: forget about your old rubbish already. thats not going to help the situation
[19:38] <GPenguin> Tm_T: its no insult. its a fact
[19:38] <DreamThief> ...
[19:38] <bullgard> MenZa: The traffic in the channel #ubuntu-de is at maximum a tenth of that in #ubuntu.
[19:38] <GPenguin> people with asperger syndrome should not play moderation roles, because they are violent chanops
[19:38] <MenZa> leche: I don't know what preceeded this incident, I'm just looking at this particular issue
[19:38] <Tm_T> GPenguin: you have seen their diagnoses?
[19:39] <MenZa> GPenguin: I think I'm doing a pretty good job, aren't I? :)
[19:39] <MenZa> Anyway.
[19:39] <GPenguin> Tm_T: i am qualified enough to judge people as they judge newbies who are obviously not people but trolls
[19:39] <KaiL> bullgard, 1/10 of "far to much to follow" is still to much to do a good support
[19:39] <GPenguin> MenZa: you have the love of christel. thats why you are so nice :P
[19:39] <Tm_T> GPenguin: no, stop it, right now
[19:39] <radoe> GPenguin: what is your matter with asperger? I'm one of the ubuntu-de ops, I have no asperger and I don't like how you talk about people with a desease.
[19:39] <GPenguin> Tm_T: are you an asperger too?
[19:39] <Pici> Does it matter?
[19:39] <Myrtti> nnnnggghhhhhhh
[19:40] <GPenguin> yes
[19:40] <MenZa> No, it doesn't.
[19:40] <Tm_T> GPenguin: no, but I know plenty of them, and it's totally irrelevant
[19:40] <GPenguin> so when newbies are defaced as trolls you guys have no problem, but beware somebody pushes the "beware of aspergers" button then all jump in
[19:40] <GPenguin> I SEE!
[19:40] <GPenguin> lets make sure we have this logged
[19:41] <MenZa> GPenguin, you feel harassed in #ubuntu-de; is that how I am to understand the whole situation?
[19:41] <GPenguin> brb
[19:41] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[19:41] <Tm_T> GPenguin: we have logbots here already (:
[19:41] <KaiL> "everybody is an antisocial idiot; I'm the only good guy"?
[19:41] <MenZa> I'm not going to continue mediating this unless you drop the "asperger" card.
[19:41] <DreamThief> KaiL: exactly that'
[19:41] <Tm_T> anyway, sauna for me ->
[19:41] <DreamThief> that's the exxence of all that.
[19:41] <GPenguin> MenZa: you see how i am "fighting" against a horde of aspergers? :D
[19:41] <KaiL> ...Geisterfahrer...
[19:41] <GPenguin> but i am still calm even tho i am schizophrenic
[19:41] <GPenguin> KaiL: right!
[19:42] <bullgard> GPenguin: Please calm down.  In your interest and in the interest of the matter you are bringing up.
[19:42] <GPenguin> totally right, und genau deshalb eskalieren wird das auf mailing listen damit leute wie du ihren "war" endlich bekommen
[19:42] <GPenguin> asperger people battle schizophrenic people for being trolls
[19:43] <MenZa> Would someone give some input as to how the Ubuntu DE LoCo is managed? Is the IRC channel directly managed by the LoCo?
[19:43] <bullgard> GPenguin: A "war" is not in the intrest of Ubuntu and of Ubuntu'*s newcomers.
[19:43] <GPenguin> thats the story :)
[19:43] <GPenguin> thats the #debian.de story and 4-5 german ubuntu chanops make this the ubuntu story aswell
[19:43] <GPenguin> exactly thats why i am ranting here
[19:43] <GPenguin> because you kill the purpose of the ubuntu code of conduct
[19:43] <bullgard> GPenguin: Ranting is no good.
[19:43] <GPenguin> because _i_ am going to protect newbies and other schizo people
[19:44] <GPenguin> and when i have to mail bomb Mark himself
[19:44] <MenZa> That won't do you much good.
[19:44] <MenZa> I repeat -- would someone give some input as to how the Ubuntu DE LoCo is managed? Is the IRC channel directly managed by the LoCo?
[19:44] <leche> MenZa: i sent a link allrdy, wait
[19:45] <MenZa> leche: Oh, alright
[19:45] <leche> MenZa: http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/LocoTeam/IRC
[19:45] <leche> MenZa: GPenguin refused to read the rules.
[19:46] <bullgard> leche: GPenguin defended the ingterests of Ubuntu newcomers against humiliation.
[19:46] <MenZa> I understand this was taken up with the #ubuntu-de-op channel as well. Could anyone outline that process?
[19:46] <leche> bullgard: he was told 3 times to stop discussing this in the support channel.
[19:47] <leche> bullgard: and he kept continuing
[19:47] <GPenguin> bullgard: could you please /query me your email address so i can stay in contact with you?
[19:47] <GPenguin> the chat here seems pointless
[19:47] <leche> MenZa: do you want a log of this discussion?
[19:47] <bullgard> leche: Yes. And this telling was yelling and was not necessary.
[19:47] <MenZa> leche: Sure.
[19:47] <MenZa> GPenguin: Can I remind you that the LocoTeam/IRC page says "Atme tief durch, bewahre Ruhe und werde nicht emotional." in the "Ich fühle mich von einem/den OPs ungerecht behandelt" section -- please try to keep that in mind.
[19:47] <leche> bullgard: the last time he did this in the support channel the discussion exploded.
[19:47] <MenZa> Ruhig sein :)
[19:48] <leche> MenZa: http://pastebin.com/RCDjDYUq
[19:49]  * MenZa reads.
[19:50] <leche> bullgard: last time he discussed this in the support channel the discussion escalated. that is not really helpfully.
[19:50] <leche> -y
[19:51] <GPenguin> MenZa: okay, i will go for a smoke and relax with a "nutellabrot" after that :)
[19:51] <leche> GPenguin: is right in one point. we have a few supporters that are not really "newbee"-friendly.
[19:51] <MenZa> GPenguin: You really need to tone it down a bit if you're expecting to have any situation diffused -- it's hard to find sympathy with this attitude, whether your point is genuine or not.
[19:51] <GPenguin> MenZa: thanks a lot for your care! *hug*
[19:51] <GPenguin> MenZa: i only need to tone it down because multiple people were bashing me at once
[19:52] <GPenguin> and i am observing the hostile and anti social climate on debian channels for too long to be happy about it when this climate comes to ubuntu channels
[19:52] <MenZa> To be fair, I haven't seen anything to point my fingers at done wrong in the ops' conduct so far
[19:53] <m4v> GPenguin: you're aware yourself that you're hostile as well?
[19:58] <GPenguin> is that a surprise after the experiences i made the last 14 days?
[19:58] <MenZa> It doesn't serve you any good, at the very least
[19:58] <GPenguin> maybe my mistake is to value the code of conduct more than you
[19:59] <MenZa> I think everyone who actively engages in the Ubuntu community do it because they value the community, and the pillars on which it is built.
[20:00] <MenZa> There are rotten seeds everywhere, but so far, I haven't seen anything I'd call out foul on.
[20:01] <GPenguin> that depends on your perspective. as staffer or chanop you are not as easily hurt as me when you watch it how newbies are treated badly
[20:01] <GPenguin> my mistake was to speak up
[20:01] <GPenguin> i see that
[20:01] <MenZa> I am in the channels I'm active in.
[20:01] <GPenguin> but i need to speak if if nobody else puts a stop at all this
[20:01] <m4v> GPenguin: is not excuse, if you complain about hostility when can't seem to discuss this in a civil way makes your argument pointless
[20:01] <leche> no, your mistake was to speak up at the wrong place in the wrong tone
[20:01] <GPenguin> otherwise #ubuntu-de turns into #debian.de
[20:02] <GPenguin> nobody needs that here on Freenode
[20:02] <m4v> show respect and consideration is more important than being right about the subject
[20:02] <GPenguin> i cant show respect for a person who tries to boss me around
[20:02] <GPenguin> i am 34 years old not 17
[20:03] <MenZa> It doesn't sound like we're going very far here. As far as I can see, nothing's gone wrong. My suggestion is that you, GPenguin, get some sleep. Think about it. At the same time, I see leche admits some users are not exactly following the spirit of Ubuntu very well, so perhaps it'd be an idea if the -de-ops sat down and talked about how to counter this, and sent an e-mail to the -de list emphasising this, once they've found a plan for it.
[20:03] <MenZa> (Did that cut off anywhere?)
[20:03] <GPenguin> and because everybody knows that i am schizophrenic i am not afraid to address the asperger syndrom as problem
[20:03] <GPenguin> because it is one
[20:03] <m4v> MenZa: nope
[20:04] <GPenguin> but i can see clearly that #ubuntu-irc has a similar problem with the social climate agenda of mine
[20:04] <GPenguin> i will elaborate on that after eating something
[20:04] <GPenguin> but i will not do it here, dont worry
[20:04] <GPenguin> i am done here for now
[20:04] <MenZa> GPenguin: I'd suggest a good night's sleep. It does wonders.
[20:04] <MenZa> I can attest to this fully.
[20:04] <GPenguin> nope, i need to complete my mission first before i can go to bed
[20:04] <MenZa> Turning this into a crusade won't do anyone any good.
[20:05] <GPenguin> mind you - mission is _my_ word not war
[20:05] <MenZa> "Atme tief durch, bewahre Ruhe und werde nicht emotional."
[20:05] <GPenguin> mission impossible IV
[20:05] <leche> MenZa: yes, those users need to be talked with or such things. most of the time we try to stop them before they step over the border
[20:05] <GPenguin> to rescue to well being of every beginner who uses ubuntnu
[20:05] <GPenguin> ubuntu even
[20:05] <MenZa> Noone wants to see this sort of escalation; it's in everyone's interest to resolve things like this quickly and quietly.
[20:06] <MenZa> leche: Excellent :)
[20:06] <MenZa> GPenguin: See? Mission accomplished. :)
[20:06] <GPenguin> daniel holbein (maybe wrong spelling) suggested already to post to the mailing list with my idea
[20:06] <leche> MenZa: i just speak for myself, i will put this on the agenda for the next op-meeting
[20:06] <MenZa> leche: awesome
[20:07] <GPenguin> an idea about my mission, nothing about war
[20:07] <MenZa> GPenguin: I suggest you wait until the next -de-ops meeting has been held and see what conclusions are reached.
[20:07] <GPenguin> i wont care for #ubuntu-de and #ubuntu-de-ops from now on
[20:08] <abe2k> btw the -de-ops have a deescallation route. but afaik the user wasnt able to use it because he got rude (like here before)
[20:08] <leche> MenZa: well, how do you handle users that are really good supporters but dont welcome every new user with "hey, how can i help you, its ok if you ask 1000 metaquestions"
[20:08] <MenZa> Ho-hum.
[20:09] <MenZa> leche: The issue is well-known in every single major Ubuntu channel. It's about finding a fine line in what policy you adopt. :)
[20:09] <abe2k> MenZa: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.ubuntuusers.de%2FLocoTeam%2FIRC&sl=de&tl=en
[20:09] <leche> MenZa: well, but as you see, the line is not fitting for some people.
[20:10] <MenZa> abe2k: Ich kann auch Deutsch lesen, und habe meisten davon geliest. ;)
[20:10] <abe2k> MenZa: okay :)
[20:10] <m4v> leche: I had problems with that too in k-es, well, I still have, but not as much.
[20:11] <MenZa> I'm going to be away for a bit; any further notes, leave a /query.
[20:11] <leche> m4v: as an op?
[20:11] <leche> MenZa: bye, thank you
[20:12] <abe2k> imho this user doesnt want sth to change. he is just a troll. like he did in some debian channel or even #freenode
[20:12] <m4v> mostly I try talk to them, that being rude won't do any good, and that ignoring them would be much better if you think their questions are stupid or don't like them
[20:12] <abe2k> but time will tell
[20:12] <m4v> leche: first as a regular user, now as I op
[20:12] <m4v> but I had more success when I was a regular user
[20:13] <m4v> now some think that 'cause i'm op I'm in some white horse.
[20:14] <leche> i also got this theory that he made up this metaquestions and irc-client-flame-pushing user..
[20:14] <leche> but thats just a theory
[20:16] <leche> ok, doesnt look like :). thank you for your time guys
[21:25] <issyl0> Hi there.  Could I possibly get my Ubuntu Member cloak please, who do I talk to about that?
[21:25] <issyl0> I have just become an Ubuntu Member, woo!
[21:26] <Myrtti> woo!
[21:26] <Myrtti> issyl0: could you give the link to your launchpad profile?
[21:26] <issyl0> Myrtti: sure - https://edge.launchpad.net/~issyl0
[21:29] <Myrtti> then we'll just wait, there might be some more questions though
[21:29] <issyl0> OK/
[21:33] <m4v> Pici, jussi01, nhandler, topyli: ^
[21:48] <jussi01> niko: VorTechS other staff, please cloak issyl0 with an ubuntu/member cloak.
[21:49]  * issyl0 is being patient :)
[21:51] <niko> issyl0: congrats again
[21:51] <issyl0> When a staffer does look in though, could you possibly replace the wikimedia with ubuntu.member stuff.
[21:51] <issyl0> Thanks niko!
[21:52] <niko> jussi01: cloak updated
[21:53] <issyl0> niko: thank you for that
[21:53] <niko> you're welcome :)
[21:53] <YoBoY> hu
[21:53] <YoBoY> hi
[21:56] <YoBoY> how to have a cloack on my host?
[21:56] <Myrtti> are you an Ubuntu member?
[21:56] <YoBoY> yes :)
[21:56] <YoBoY> https://launchpad.net/~yoboy-leguesh
[21:56] <kinouchou> me too
[21:56] <YoBoY> since tonight :p
[21:56] <Myrtti> could you give the link to your launchpad profiles, please
[21:57] <kinouchou> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/kinouchou
[21:57] <Myrtti> kinouchou: launchpad
[21:57] <kinouchou> https://launchpad.net/~kinouchou
[21:57] <kinouchou> sorry
[21:57] <YoBoY> pfff kinouchou ^^
[21:58] <kinouchou> je le faisia en me temps :(
[21:58] <niko> jussi01: ping ^
[22:00] <kinouchou> oups, je le faisais en même temps
[22:01] <YoBoY> tanks jussi01 :)
[22:01] <YoBoY> tanks Myrtti
[22:01] <jussi01> niko: VorTechS other staff, please cloak YoBoY and kinouchou with an ubuntu/member cloak.
[22:01] <leche> btw, what are the requirements for becoming an ubuntu member?
[22:01] <jussi01> !member
[22:02] <niko> both cloaked, congrats.
[22:02] <jussi01> thanks niko
[22:02] <YoBoY> merci niko :)
[22:02] <Myrtti> congrats fellers
[22:04] <kinouchou> merci :)
[22:05] <YoBoY> tanks
[22:05] <McPeter> ;)
[22:05] <YoBoY> question: is there a way to customize this cloak ?
[22:06] <Myrtti> no
[22:06] <Myrtti> not really
[22:06] <Myrtti> how come, what did you have in mind?
[22:07] <McPeter> YoBoY, participe à freenode :)
[22:07] <YoBoY> ubuntu/member/fr.yoboy to have the region of my loco team in it :p
[22:07] <McPeter> genre : ubuntu/member/pdpc.21for7.<nick> :)
[22:07] <McPeter> YoBoY, rofl
[22:08] <McPeter> YoBoY, Ubuntu Member is TEAM not nationality :)
[22:08] <YoBoY> but it's just a question, i don't realy need it :)
[22:08] <McPeter> it's fammily
[22:08] <McPeter> -m
[22:08] <niko> YoBoY: in fact, it's wrong like that, because there is no project fr
[22:08] <YoBoY> McPeter: my family is also the french team, you are my family :D
[22:08] <McPeter> ᴖ_ᴖ
[22:09] <YoBoY> niko: ok it's by project... i understand
[22:09] <niko> yes, cloak with 2 projects, like mine
[22:10]  * YoBoY 's going to create de french-rule-the-world project
[22:10] <McPeter> :)
[22:10] <niko> first step, i-am-alone
[22:10] <McPeter> HAHAH
[22:13] <YoBoY> niko: you are killing my dream :'(
[22:14] <kinouchou> my poor yoboy :(
[22:14]  * YoBoY need a hug
[22:14] <YoBoY> :p
[22:14]  * kinouchou hugs YoBoY
[22:15]  * YoBoY hugs kinouchou :)
[22:15] <YoBoY> by the way, tanks for the cloak :)
[22:15] <YoBoY> good night everyone (or good morning, or whatever ^^)
[22:19] <kinouchou> good night
[22:53] <leche> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/leche could this be enough for trying to apply as member? if you say this isnt enough i wont even try it ;)
[22:55] <persia> leche: I'm not on the EMEA board, but id your application came before me, I'd ask for the following additional information:
[22:56] <persia> 1) Your specific role in organising the 2008 Ubucons in Göttingen and links to reports on them with information like what happened, how many people attended, etc.
[22:56] <leche> oh, the link to my launchpad profile is missing
[22:56] <persia> 2) 3-5 testimonials from current members talking about how you do great stuff and some of their good experiences working with you
[22:56] <persia> (oh, and that :) )
[22:57] <persia> 3) Some links to IRC logs that showed you helping people with particularly complex or interesting problems (show off how well you help folks)
[22:57] <leche> persia: ok, so others should edit my page and give their opinion?
[22:58] <persia> 4) A bit more resolution regarding how long you've been an Op where, etc.
[22:58] <persia> leche: For the testimonials, yes, try to get others to edit the page.
[22:58] <persia> (because this shows in the wiki history)
[22:58] <persia> For the rest of it, edit it yourself.
[22:58] <leche> ok, ill gather this information, thank you for your comments
[22:59] <persia> Oh, and I'd recommend changing "My contribution to Ubuntu is ..." to "My primary contribution to Ubuntu is ..."
[22:59] <persia> Good luck!
[22:59] <leche> thanks :)
[23:08] <m4v> leche: you know spanish?
[23:09] <leche> m4v: just a little bit, did 2 courses at university
[23:09] <m4v> ah, I was wondering due to your nick
[23:10] <leche> i like spanish alot
[23:10] <leche> its sound ist soo.. fantastico :D
[23:10] <leche> is*
[23:11] <m4v> hehe :P
[23:28] <leche> m4v: its hard to find difficult problems in ubuntu channels ;)
[23:31] <m4v> yeah, irc channels aren't suitable for resolve difficult problems imo
[23:32] <m4v> so if there's a difficult problem, there are more chances that It didn't get resolved.
[23:38] <IdleOne> m4v: I sort of agree with that, in a large busy channel like #ubuntu it can be very hard for a newbie to keep up and get the help they need but in small channels irc is a great place to get help with complicated issues.
[23:38] <IdleOne> not to mention if the user is having a hard time following the help they can always ask to move to /msg or ##helpmehelpyou
[23:38] <IdleOne> :)
[23:40] <IdleOne> provided the helper is willing to go private and I know that it is not recommended to go into private chat.
[23:44] <m4v> yes
[23:46] <m4v> the problem of #ubuntu is one hard to tackle
[23:48] <leche> in ubuntu channels most questions are trivial. sure, there are difficult questions but most of the time people ask "hows the parameter of one program"
[23:48] <leche> thats my impression
[23:48] <IdleOne> I don't think it is a problem that can be solved. Honestly I don't see it as a problem.
[23:49] <IdleOne> leche: Ubuntu's popularity brings in a lot of new users to the channel and to Linux in general so yes the questions are often trivial to more experienced users
[23:49] <IdleOne> but remember we all started as newbs :)
[23:50] <IdleOne> the newb you help today will one day be experienced and hopefully give back
[23:50] <leche> its completly ok for me, didnt say its bad that you can answer most questions without think too much :)
[23:50] <IdleOne> hehe
[23:50] <IdleOne> I hear you


[05:57] <nixternal> uploaded kde-style-skulpture to debian and will hopefully one day soon sync it to jaunty
[09:32] <hunger_t> What is up with the kde 4.2 beta update for jaunty? Did it get stuck?
[11:52] <danimo> hey, somebody pinged me?
[12:09]  * Hobbsee waves
[12:10] <Hobbsee> so who wants to do a SRU fix to unmangle kde* on lpia?
[12:27] <Hobbsee> ah, there's already a bug.  cool
[12:59] <apachelogger> oh
[12:59] <apachelogger> uh
[13:00]  * apachelogger runs through the channel screaming
[13:01] <apachelogger> the networkmanager plasmoid stuff thingy is connecting to wireless
[13:01] <apachelogger> with authentification that is
[13:01] <Hobbsee> \o/
[13:01]  * apachelogger hugs everyone and starts crying
[13:01]  * Nightrose looks suspiciously and hugs apachelogger back
[13:01] <Nightrose> need cookies or a captain?
[13:01] <Nightrose> ;-)
[13:01]  * apachelogger hand cookies to captain sebas
[13:02] <Nightrose> haha
[13:03]  * apachelogger starts updating bindings
[13:09]  * sebas notes that he really wants those cookies
[13:09]  * Nightrose ponders bringing some to FFM
[13:09] <Hobbsee> are they choc chip?
[13:09] <Nightrose> Hobbsee: there are others?
[13:10] <apachelogger> Hobbsee: they always are
[13:10] <Hobbsee> \o/
[13:10]  * Hobbsee confiscates them all, and waves the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!™ around
[13:10] <Nightrose> ohnoes....
[13:10]  * Hobbsee munches happily
[13:10] <Nightrose> meanie!
[13:10] <Hobbsee> all gone :P
[13:10] <Hobbsee> the cookie monster came :P
[13:10] <Nightrose> *dob*
[13:11] <Nightrose> *sob* even
[13:11] <apachelogger> dub remix
[13:11] <apachelogger> so, I could upload KDE one-by-one and break jaunty, or I could upload KDE all at once and break jaunty until everything is built, or I upload to a ppa and break the systems of those who are using the ppa + jaunty
[13:11] <apachelogger> alternately I could not upload at all because beta2 tagging is in 2 weeks anyway :P
[13:13] <Nightrose> nonono please upload
[13:13] <Nightrose> and those using ppa and jaunty should know that things will break(TM)
[13:13] <apachelogger> hm, everyone goes vacationing and I have to do all the work -.-
[13:14]  * Nightrose hugs apachelogger
[13:28] <Trouble> apachelogger, all the work, and all the credit ;-)
[14:00] <ryanakca> hehe
[14:07] <hunger> apachelogger: Please go ahead and break my system by uploading new KDE debs:-)
[14:07] <hunger> apachelogger: I feel strange with a older kde on my jaunty box than on the intrepid one:-)
[14:08] <JontheEchidna> hehe^
[14:08] <hunger> And I don't have to build KDE by myself then to break my box. That is a huge timesaver for me.
[14:11] <apachelogger> first I gotta check out sebas' monster sized cursor
[14:12] <sebas> I'm running dualscreen, that helps me not losing it all the time :)
[14:13] <apachelogger> sebas: isn't that what the kwin stars are for? ;-)
[14:14] <sebas> yeah, but having them enabled all the time (ductape!?!) defeats their purpose
[14:14] <sebas> I've only been using this cursor for two days now, and I figured it'd be useful for the screencast
[14:14] <sebas> Going out now
[14:17] <apachelogger> the stars remind me of cartoons
[14:17] <apachelogger> big cursor => big mouse => rat = no good
[14:19] <hunger> What are those stars for by the way?
[14:20] <apachelogger> finding your mouse, though I think that usecase is made up and it's really just a PoC ;-)
[14:21] <apachelogger> _Sime: any thoughts about http://paste.ubuntu.com:80/77749/
[14:21] <ryanakca> XP has the same thing... except they don't have stars...
[14:22] <hunger> Wow, Sebas glasses must be really thick then... needing those stars with such a *huge* mouse pointer:-)
[14:23]  * apachelogger rofls
[14:23] <apachelogger> using such a big theme is just awesome
[14:24] <apachelogger> feels awesome
[14:24] <apachelogger> looks awesome
[14:24] <apachelogger> it's just awesome
[14:24] <hunger> Yeap, it makes the screencast almost understandable, even when viewed in the browser.
[14:26] <apachelogger> I really don't get why pykde fails
[14:26] <apachelogger> hunger: 4.1.80 might take longer
[14:26] <apachelogger> without bindings built I can't build workspace, whichout that I can't build utils, sdk, plasma-addons...
[14:26] <hunger> apachelogger: Longer than what?
[14:27] <apachelogger> than tonightish
[14:27] <hunger> apachelogger: That is OK.
[14:27] <hunger> apachelogger: As long as I can see a silver lining on the horizon:-)
[14:28] <hunger> I wouldn't have asked if the current mix of 4.1.73 and 4.1.2 was a bit more stable.
[14:31] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: toys is the quality I would exepct from any package
[14:31] <apachelogger> hunger: in theory the mix should have made things easier
[14:31] <apachelogger> didn't quite work out
[14:32] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: I believe that one just needed build-dep version bumps
[14:32] <JontheEchidna> luckily for NCommander :P
[14:33] <apachelogger> yeah, still I didn't have to do anything, so I like the quality :P
[14:37] <hunger> apachelogger: Well, ping me if you need someone to test stuff or so. I don't mind breaking my system too much and usually know how to fix it again.
[14:38] <apachelogger> hunger: okies :)
[14:50] <_Sime> apachelogger: the lastest version PyQt and SIP will most likely fix that problem.
[14:50] <apachelogger> I thought you would say that :(
[14:50] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: ^
[14:50] <apachelogger> wanna give it a shot?
[14:51] <JontheEchidna> sure
[14:51] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: Weren't you looking at a python-qt4 merge earlier or something?
[14:53] <JontheEchidna> python-qt4 is at 4.4.3, so that should be ok
[14:55] <JontheEchidna> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sip4-qt3
[14:55] <apachelogger> noooo
[14:55] <JontheEchidna> Apparently ScottK merged with 4.7.9
[14:55] <apachelogger> ah
[14:55] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: that is qt3?
[14:55]  * JontheEchidna couldn't find anything for qt4
[14:55] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: anyway, pyqt4 got an update recently
[14:56] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: sip4-qt3 produces python-sip4 which python-qt4 deps on
[14:56] <apachelogger> yeah, wrong source package name ...\o/ for that
[14:56] <JontheEchidna> poorly named source packages ftl
[14:57] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/news/pyqt-444
[15:07]  * Nightrose cries
[15:07] <Nightrose> apachelogger: eagles is back...
[15:07] <apachelogger> Nightrose: I saw
[15:08] <manchicken> Who is "eagles"?
[15:08] <Nightrose> someone who is excellent at stealing people's time
[15:08] <manchicken> Ah.
[15:09] <manchicken> On purpose or out of ignorance?
[15:09]  * Nightrose isn't sure but assumes ignorance
[15:09] <manchicken> I'm gonna try to figure out how to do some translations today.
[15:13] <JontheEchidna> eagles took like 4 hours to do a 5 minute package fix
[15:13] <JontheEchidna> with constant guidance
[15:14]  * JontheEchidna pbuilds pyqt 4.4.4
[15:19] <manchicken> Sounds like me when I first started...
[15:25] <Nightrose> manchicken: only that he started about 100 times
[15:25] <Nightrose> :(
[15:27]  * danimo should focus, too. he has like 3-4 things to do and can't finish a single one
[15:27] <rgreening> _Sime: ping
[15:28] <_Sime> rgreening: hi
[15:28] <JontheEchidna> Hmm, pyqt4 4.4.4 fails in the first patch
[15:29] <rgreening> _Sime: hey. I have a q for you.
[15:29] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: 4 hours?
[15:29] <apachelogger> IIRC it were 2-3 days
[15:30] <apachelogger> each at least 6 hours works
[15:30] <apachelogger> -s
[15:30] <JontheEchidna> you would probably know better
[15:31] <_Sime> rgreening: well let me have it.
[15:31] <rgreening> _Sime: I have a pyKDE4 app, which needs admin rights. I run it via kdesudo. However, doing this, breaks KHelpMenu as it isn't running a full KDE session. I was wondering, is there a proper or semi-good way to make this work? I'd prefer if the KHelpMenu would run stuff as the user (i.e. url and e-mail links).
[15:32] <apachelogger> rgreening: why is the whole app running with admin rights anyway?
[15:32] <apachelogger> I would assume it aggregates a list of changes and applies them once
[15:32] <rgreening> apachelogger: It's a front-end to a firewall app and changes occur as added.
[15:33] <apachelogger> must be a gnome firewall
[15:33] <rgreening> ufw is a python fw
[15:33] <rgreening> which talks to iptables/netfilter
[15:33] <apachelogger> it shouldn't be necessary to run any gui app with sudo
[15:34] <apachelogger> certain tasks maybe, not the GUI though
[15:34] <rgreening> apachelogger: I need admin to read the config, write the config and add/remove rules
[15:34] <apachelogger> rgreening: that is always weird
[15:34] <apachelogger> what is ufw doing then?
[15:34] <rgreening> apachelogger, _Sime: so the question becomes, what's the best/correct way to do this?
[15:35] <rgreening> apachelogger: ufw talks direct to netfilter/iptables in the kernel to provide real time filter rules
[15:35] <_Sime> rgreening: that's not really a python specific question. Anyway, which version of KDE should this work on?
[15:35] <apachelogger> yeah but how does your app relate to ufw if you are minupulating the config yourself?
[15:35] <rgreening> _Sime: I'm using pyKDE4
[15:36] <rgreening> apachelogger: I was planning on making calls to ufw
[15:36] <rgreening> _Sime: so, KDE4
[15:36]  * apachelogger finds the approach of ufw very weird
[15:36] <rgreening> apachelogger: not really
[15:37] <_Sime> KDE 4.2 might have better support for policykit.
[15:37] <apachelogger> <3 policykit
[15:37] <_Sime> that is the modern way of doing this kind of thing.
[15:37] <rgreening> apachelogger: I could defer sudo to everytime I need to apply/remove a rule, but that potentially means the user has to enter their password multiple times
[15:37] <apachelogger> rgreening: sudo got caching
[15:38] <rgreening> apachelogger: can you set the session timeout for the duration of the app?
[15:38] <apachelogger> no
[15:38] <apachelogger> that doesn't matter because every su call we have is in fact a sudo call and leads to caching
[15:39] <apachelogger> rgreening: the GUI should only be talking to ufw eitherway, and to do that you shouldn't need an advanced permission set at all
[15:39] <apachelogger> ufw should handle permission
[15:39] <rgreening> apachelogger: ufw requires admin to run
[15:39] <apachelogger> ufw is a daemon I guess?
[15:39] <rgreening> ufw us called with some su
[15:40] <rgreening> no, it's an app
[15:40] <apachelogger> I give up that concept is clearly not apachelogger proof
[15:40] <rgreening> e.g.: ufw allow 21/tcp
[15:41] <apachelogger> Oo
[15:41] <rgreening> sudo ufw allow 21/tcp
[15:41] <apachelogger> rgreening: that thing must have a lib
[15:41] <rgreening> it has a lot of python files
[15:42] <rgreening> but none appear to be modules
[15:42] <rgreening> _Sime: any suggestions on how to run an app as a user but maybe attach some kpart (or similar) in it run as another user?
[15:42] <JontheEchidna> yay, I fixed the patch
[15:43] <JontheEchidna> any  python file can be impoted as a module, right?
[15:43] <_Sime> rgreening: kparts run in-process.
[15:44] <_Sime> I guess so.
[15:44] <_Sime> rgreening: does the gnome version of ufw use policykit?
[15:45] <rgreening> _Sime: no, it needs to be called with sudo (or similar)
[15:46] <apachelogger> hm
[15:46] <apachelogger> rgreening: how do you call your app exactly?
[15:46] <apachelogger> call/start
[15:46] <rgreening> kdesudo app
[15:47]  * JontheEchidna out for half an hour-ish
[15:47] <apachelogger> rgreening: that might in fact not preserve your environment settings
[15:48] <rgreening> no, and if I run it with -E, kde pukes
[15:48] <rgreening> sry, that was with sudo -E I had tried
[15:48] <apachelogger> sudo is not made for that kind of stuff
[15:48] <apachelogger> the whole design is not made for that kind of stuff
[15:49]  * apachelogger wanders of mumbling about the superior design of linux... running apps as different user...
[15:49] <rgreening> it'd be nice if ufw was setuid to admin
[15:49] <rgreening> setgid I mean
[15:51] <rgreening> _Sime: no suggestions
[15:51] <rgreening> besides policykit
[15:52] <_Sime> rgreening: not really,
[15:52]  * rgreening crys
[16:01] <rgreening> apachelogger, _Sime: I think for now (until I come up with something better), I'll run as normal user, make calls to ufw with kdesudo, and hopefully the caching will be sufficient.
[16:02] <rgreening> apachelogger: does kdesudo reset the cache timer each time make a subsequent call to kdesudo?
[16:05] <apachelogger> rgreening: I think so
[16:08] <manchicken> Is there a doc on how to set up a translation environment, and begin doing translations?  For that matter, is there anything that needs translations?
[16:13] <manchicken> allee_: Long time no see.
[16:28] <ryanakca> apachelogger: finally getting around to kiosktool, rational is that it's KDE3 and there is no KDE4 version in sight?
[16:28] <apachelogger> ryanakca: exactly
[16:30] <ryanakca> apachelogger: thanks
[16:33] <ryanakca> apachelogger: bug 303193
[16:35] <apachelogger> Reverse Depends:
[16:35] <apachelogger>   education-desktop-kde
[16:35] <apachelogger>   desktop-profiles
[16:35] <apachelogger> ryanakca: the former needs to be updated to KDE 4 as a matter of fact
[16:35] <apachelogger> it recommends kiosktool right now
[16:35] <apachelogger> the latter suggests it
[16:36] <apachelogger> ryanakca: please report bugs against those thingies to get the recommends/suggests fixed
[16:36]  * apachelogger can't ACK otherwise :P
[16:36] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: how is pyqt coming along?
[16:37] <rgreening> ScottK: ping
[16:38] <manchicken> Hey Tonio_.
[16:38] <apachelogger> ryanakca: btw, you shouldn't subscribe ubuntu-archive
[16:38] <ryanakca> apachelogger: Ooops. I based myself on another remove bug :)
[16:38] <manchicken> Is it even possible to localize things like default text on the notes plasmoid?
[16:39] <apachelogger> ryanakca: you would need a developer ack who then subscribes ubuntu-archive
[16:39] <ryanakca> apachelogger: ah, ok. I'll file the other two bugs and then feel like ack'ing it?
[16:40] <apachelogger> ryanakca: well, they need fixing, nothing to ack there, I can confirm them if you want ;-)
[16:41] <ryanakca> apachelogger: is it worth filing a bug report for those two, or can I just give you a debdiff?
[16:41] <apachelogger> ryanakca: file a bug, I am to tired to upload today
[16:41] <ryanakca> apachelogger: thanks
[16:41] <apachelogger> ryanakca: education-desktop-kde needs much more work than just dropping the kiosktool
[16:44] <manchicken> Holy crap VMWare Fusion is sweet.
[16:47] <nixternal> hola, como estas
[16:47]  * ryanakca waves to nixternal
[16:48]  * nixternal checks the status of his Debian packages
[16:48] <nixternal> I was hoping to sync the KDE packages, but I can't because they still use the CDBS stuff in their packages
[16:49]  * ryanakca wonders what's wrong with CDBS
[16:50] <nixternal> they still use debian/cdbs/
[16:50] <ryanakca> ah
[16:58] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: compiling away
[17:21] <_Sime> mmmm.... turning off the EXA greedy option in xorg.conf improves the system tray icon situation a lot!
[17:34] <DreadKnight> aren't people bragging about kde4.2 backport already? xD
[17:49] <nixternal> apachelogger: any hints on a debian/watch file for packages on kde-look.org?
[17:49] <nixternal> the package I am working on, the watch file will not work with the developers website because the directory the packages are in are 403
[17:49] <apachelogger> nixternal: just not possible
[17:49] <nixternal> didn't think so
[17:50] <apachelogger> nixternal: eitherway it is not worth the effort
[17:50] <apachelogger> they should just change their system to something we can interact with in a sensible way
[17:55] <JontheEchidna> pyqt4 is up to QtOpenGL bindings
[18:36] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: pyqt4 4.4.4 coming your way
[19:04] <nixternal> apachelogger: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=kde-style-skulpture
[20:42]  * yuriy is hating the gnome bluetooth applet
[22:02] <manchicken> Man, vmware is neat, but not working terribly well today.
[22:03] <manchicken> I don't know why it is having such a hard time getting the resolution proper.  KDE looks right, but everything else seems VERY small...
[22:03] <manchicken> And KDM doesn't seem to want to play well with the same resolution of everything else


[02:33] <guiverc> THANKS Eickmeyer !   (spent ages looking for a bug report, and you'd found it whilst I slept & actioned it too !!!)
[02:48] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[02:49] <Eickmeyer> guiverc: I was on the reporting end of another bug the same release fixed. Now, one thing about that bug: it seems that it fixed the bug for GNOME, Xfce, and KDE Plasma Desktop, but not MATE which seems to have a different way to set the font which wasn't covered in the fix. Whether they'll bother or not, I don't know.
[02:50] <Eickmeyer> It seems as though the MATE team has been hands-off when it comes to fixing stuff lately.
[02:50] <guiverc> I've seen at least 2 (maybe 3) mate users report it.. (2 others that were using unknown but gave too few details so I have no idea)
[02:51] <guiverc> yeah I know... but we can't do much (except what we do)
[02:51] <Eickmeyer> Right. Problem is, unless they start participating in the larger community more, they're going to have to live with their papercuts.
[02:52] <Eickmeyer> It's just sad to watch.
[02:53] <Eickmeyer> Morning lotuspsychje (I say as the sun just set an hour ago here)
[02:54] <lotuspsychje> hey Eickmeyer guiverc o/
[02:54] <guiverc> we all have various calls on our time, the best intentions of course, but we're only capable of doing so much.. stuff gets past us we didn't intend; it happens.  When we're watching, we can't really afford to let ourselves get 'saddened' but it; part of 'life' & our existence  (our energy/time rarely matching our intentions)
[02:55] <guiverc> & G'day lotuspsychje


[03:08] <smoser> felipe1982: if you have an older version of cloud-init, you may not  have the cloud-init-output.log enabled. and it will just go to wherever the init system output goes (probably /dev/console)
[03:08] <smoser> but, yeah, you probalby can run that as blackboxsw pointed out
[03:24] <felipe1982> amazon linux 2 is quite new. I would have assumed it was latest [enough]
[03:25] <felipe1982> what version would I need for *boothook* to write to /var/log/cloud-init-output.log
[14:17] <Odd_Bloke> Just realised that I did all of my testing for the Oracle secondary VNICs branch with a local change to prefer data source network config over initramfs config.
[14:17] <Odd_Bloke> So a follow up MP will be coming Real Soon Now.
[14:38] <Odd_Bloke> rharper: blackboxsw: https://code.launchpad.net/~daniel-thewatkins/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/371403 <-- actually enable Oracle secondary VNICs (instead of just generating config which would enable them and throwing it away)
[15:24] <smoser> :q
[15:24] <smoser> oops
[15:40] <Odd_Bloke> rharper: On https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1799301, I think the problem is that it _does_ use sysconfig and we don't detect that we should be using sysconfig, right?  Or are you wondering if the Fedora comment is actually a distinct bug?
[15:40] <rharper> Odd_Bloke: yes; but it seems to be related to where the additional files we check are located
[15:41] <rharper>    'etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/network-functions',
[15:41] <rharper>         'etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifdown-eth'
[15:41] <rharper> we look for those; I wondered why Fedora wouldn't have those if they're still using sysconfig
[15:41] <rharper> w.r.t OpenSuSE; they have different paths
[15:42] <rharper> at least in some of the releases; hence the bug
[17:09] <blackboxsw> per my ubuntu-drivers branch I think there is an option to provide debconf-set-selections instead of cloud-init knowing to write out /etc/default/linux-modules-nvidia. I'm exploring that option now since we already do debconf-set-selections for byobu, ca-certs and grub
[17:37] <rharper> blackboxsw: ok;  writing out the line in the conf is going to be faster/cheaper than invoking debconf ;  if the config value or what needs emitting is expected to change ; that does abstract cloud-init from those sorts of changes;
[18:00] <blackboxsw> rharper: Odd_Bloke smoser: for those interested, the 2nd commit on my branch updates cloud-init to just use debconf-set-selections, making it also a much smaller branch. (assuming that is the right selection value. I like abstracting cloud-init from the config implementation details if possible, in case they change. Even if it is a little slower for the corner-case deployment where cloud-init user is on gpgpu.
[18:00] <blackboxsw> https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/371369
[18:00] <blackboxsw> so if we like the 2nd commit more than the first. I can rebase and squash of we get confirmation that debconf-set-selection is valid
[18:03] <blackboxsw> *if we get confirmation*


[04:35] <Gnudnik0> I just upgraded from Kubuntu zesty to artful and now I can seem get to the GUI with a MD/ATI] Bonaire XT [Radeon HD 7790/8770 / R7 360 / R9 260/360 OEM display adapter using the radeon driver, presumably. I can see a splash screen in sddm or lightdm, gdm3 just seems to freeze the interface, but I can't seem to get to the desktop. Not a lot of wayland packages seemed to be added during the upgrade. Should I consider using the amdgpu driver?
[04:37] <Gnudnik0> startx also isn't working. I'm not seeing any EE lines in /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[04:37] <Gnudnik0> Should I rip out all the wayland packages?
[04:39] <Gnudnik0> Apparently both amdgpu and radeon are loaded, I don't know if that is a problem.  lsmod | grep -i amdgpu
[04:39] <Gnudnik0> drm_kms_helper        167936  2 amdgpu,radeon  - drm_kms_helper        167936  2 amdgpu,radeon
[04:40] <Gnudnik0> drm                   356352  7 amdgpu,radeon,ttm,drm_kms_helper
[05:03] <tjaalton> gdm doesn't use X
[05:03] <tjaalton> and having both drivers loaded doesn't matter
[05:18] <Gnudnik0> GDM seems to completely free the system though I can ssh in to it and it is responive.
[05:21] <Gnudnik0> htop shows I'm using ~400 MB of RAM, not in X, and very little of my 8 CPUs
[05:23] <Gnudnik0> From lightdm I can get in to X, so far xfce & gnome, but it takes forever and in gnome I can't seem to launch any programs, clicking on the icons just stalls out. Very frustrating. I guess I'm going to strip all the wayland stuff out.
[05:23] <tjaalton> you're not using X
[05:24] <tjaalton> oh
[05:24] <tjaalton> lightdm
[05:24] <Gnudnik0> I have tried using "Ubuntu on Xorg", that doesn't work, let me reboot before I hack out wayland and try Ubuntu in wayland
[05:24] <tjaalton> lightdm can't start a wayland session, I think that's a known issue
[05:25] <Gnudnik0> Can sddm?
[05:25] <tjaalton> dunno
[05:25] <tjaalton> there's nothing special with waylandified gnome-shell
[05:25] <tjaalton> just some new bugs
[05:26] <tjaalton> better security maybe, not being able to lauch some apps
[05:26] <tjaalton> issues with gdm belong to #ubuntu-desktop
[05:26] <tjaalton> a similar issue was supposed to be fixed a day before release
[05:54] <Gnudnik0> I stripped off gdm, though I've left the wayland for the time being, tjaalton, but the system is still really weird even with lightdm and gdm and I don't seem to be able to startx.  I'm trying the latest mainline kernel and I removed amd64-microcode on the theory that it is closed source and maybe buggy and AMD may make decent hardware, but have never been famed for their software. Oh, also, when I finally got to plasma pulseaudio was showing as a dummy output.


[05:41] <inetpro> good mornings
[05:52] <Squirm> morning
[05:58] <Kilos> good morning all
[05:58] <Kilos> this be me from unity
[05:58] <Kilos> now need to get sound working here
[05:59] <Kilos> oh my no top tool bar on xchat
[06:00] <Kilos> or pidgin
[06:01] <Kilos> bbl lemme try sort this out first
[07:08] <charlvn> good morning all
[07:09] <charlvn> morning inetpro, Squirm
[07:09] <charlvn> Maaz: coffee on\
[07:09] <Maaz> charlvn: Huh?
[07:09] <charlvn> Maaz: coffee on
[07:09]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[07:13] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charlvn!
[07:14] <Kerbero> Symmetria: nice news http://ht.ly/1lLNjj
[07:37] <sflr> good morning guys
[07:42] <magespawn> morning all
[07:42] <Symmetria> heh Kerbero thanks, its been a mission
[08:48] <charlvn> morning Kerbero, sflr, magespawn, Symmetria
[08:48] <Kerbero> dag
[08:48] <magespawn> hey charlvn
[08:49] <charlvn> Symmetria: good work!
[08:54] <charlvn> hi psydroid
[08:54] <psydroid> hi charlvn
[12:44] <smile> hoi allemaal :)
[12:44] <smile> Kerbero: hoe gaan dit? :p
[13:46] <charlvn> hi smile
[13:47] <charlvn> Maaz: coffee on
[13:47]  * Maaz flips the salt-timer
[13:51] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charlvn!
[13:53] <Kilos> hiya superfly sflr inetpro nuvolari and other fellas
[13:53] <magespawn> hey Kilos
[13:53] <Kilos> hi magespawn
[13:53] <superfly> hi Kilos
[13:53] <Kilos> lol what you know about unity?
[13:53] <Kilos> xchat got no tool bar at the top
[13:54] <superfly> Kilos: toolbar?
[13:54] <superfly> like, with icons?
[13:54] <superfly> or are you talking about the menu?
[13:54] <Kilos> ya that think where you get preferences etc
[13:54] <Kilos> oh ya menu
[13:54] <superfly> Kilos: hover your mouse over the bar at the top of the screen
[13:55] <Kilos> oh my
[13:55] <Kilos> will pidgin be the same?
[13:55] <Kilos> goodness gracious bally dammit me
[13:55] <superfly> Kilos: all of them
[13:55] <Kilos> ty superfly
[13:55] <superfly> np
[13:56] <Kilos> maybe ill try a dejadup backup from maverick to see if all my settings arrive
[14:03] <sflr> hey Kilos! where you've been?
[14:03] <Kilos> lol fighting new pc sflr  and unity a bit too
[14:04] <Kilos> and sorting a lame sheep
[14:04] <Kilos> on and off all day today
[14:04] <sflr> busy bee! hehe
[14:05] <Kilos> hehe should just cut its throat and put inna pot
[14:06] <magespawn> might not be a good idea, until you are sure what caused it to go lame
[14:07] <Kilos> lol its them paralysing ticks. found another 4 but on the belly near the wool and normally they around the backside
[14:09] <magespawn> if I remember correctly the ticks put out a toxin that causes the paralysis.
[14:11] <Kilos> thats it
[14:11] <Kilos> but these are black with red/orange legs
[14:11] <Kilos> not like the karoo one
[14:11] <Kilos> or the ones in northern natal
[14:13] <Kilos> flat ticks not like blue ticks
[14:13] <magespawn> I did not know about those specific ones.
[14:14] <magespawn> are you getting used to unity?
[14:15] <Kilos> kinda but not lekker without 9 desktops
[14:15] <Trixar_za> I normally only keep 2 around myself
[14:16] <Kilos> i used to use 1 workspace each for iftop pidgin mail and xchat
[14:17] <Kilos> can i remove the office icons to somewhere else so left panel got more space?
[14:17] <Trixar_za> Btw, for weird awesomeness, google The Avalanches - Frontier Psychiatry
[14:18] <Kilos> hows things Trixar_za
[14:19] <Trixar_za> Slow and a little boring. I could code something in Nimrod to learn the language better, but I'm lazy :P
[14:20] <Kilos> hehe
[14:23] <Trixar_za> Wait. It was Julius Caeser that accidentally set fire to the Library of Alexandria?
[14:23] <Trixar_za> No wonder he got stabbed in the back... and front
[14:26] <Kilos> lol
[14:27] <Kilos> 8ta 2+1 bundle is a bargain compared to other sp's hey
[14:28] <Trixar_za> Yeah
[14:28] <Kilos> but what a schlep to get it going. first had to fone them and have the 3g goodie activated on sim
[14:28] <Trixar_za> And they take less than what they advertised
[14:28] <Trixar_za> Like I bought 100MB for R40
[14:28] <Trixar_za> And they only took R37
[14:29] <Kilos> but its good when needing clean installs and updates and all new packages on a new release
[14:29] <Kilos> ya i noticed that too
[14:29] <Kilos> R149 was R148
[14:29] <Kilos> lol
[14:30] <Kilos> some chappies
[14:30] <sflr> CellC cuts data to 15c/MB in and out bundle: http://www.techcentral.co.za/cell-c-takes-knife-to-data-prices/33876/
[14:31] <magespawn> i am out of here, later guys.
[14:31] <Trixar_za> Yeah, they also used to have 30c/MB with Virgin
[14:31] <Trixar_za> Then they moved it up to 60c/MB
[14:32] <Trixar_za> and then without warning and while still advertising it as 60c/MB, they started taking R2,50/MB
[14:32] <Trixar_za> ALL while being run by CellC
[14:32] <Trixar_za> So guess which network I despise more than any other?
[14:32] <Trixar_za> :P
[14:32] <Trixar_za> Also that Trevor is a lying idiot with no basis in science at all :/
[14:35] <Trixar_za> The low frequency they're using isn't something new and the range is less than something at a higher frequency. Also it's only 50 higher than the old 900 network the old BRICK phones used.
[14:35] <Trixar_za> <rant />
[14:36] <Kilos> no man lower freqs actually do go further but not a 50m diffs
[14:37] <Kilos> 14 meg ham frequency goes around the world
[14:37] <Kerbero> sometimes
[14:37] <Kilos> 27m cdradio up to like 20 ks
[14:37] <Kerbero> wow
[14:37] <Kilos> ya Kerbero but the there 7m too
[14:37] <Kerbero> Kilos, so you are from the Kc days
[14:38] <Kilos> lol
[14:38] <Kilos> good buddy days
[14:38] <Trixar_za> Yes, it goes further, but it loses quality as it goes, so technically you lose information at larger distances
[14:38] <Kerbero> kilocycles vs kiloherz
[14:38] <Trixar_za> :P
[14:38] <Kerbero> o0
[14:39] <Kilos> n o man Trixar_za  tv is like 90m i think
[14:39] <Kilos> and line of site
[14:39] <Kilos> but clear
[14:39] <Trixar_za> Yes, but they use repeater towers
[14:40] <Trixar_za> Which doesn't count
[14:40] <Trixar_za> :p
[14:40] <Kilos> ya but our tower here is like 10ks away
[14:40] <Trixar_za> The point is, you need more cell towers with lower frequencies to maintain quality
[14:40] <tonberryE352> your words make no sense
[14:41] <Kilos> what now Tonberry ?
[14:41] <tonberryE352> goes further but loses quality
[14:41] <tonberryE352> that makes no sense
[14:41] <Kilos> oh that
[14:41] <Trixar_za> Read it on Wikipedia. I did. Rather than trust that Trevor Noah.
[14:42] <Trixar_za> Why else use HIGHER frequencies for newer devices?
[14:42] <Trixar_za> Better data transmission over greater distances
[14:43] <Trixar_za> For example. Shortwave radio. How far does that reach and how is the quality the further away you are from the source?
[14:43] <Trixar_za> The quality of gets degraded the further you get away from the source
[14:43] <tonberryE352> comparing analog to digital is cheating
[14:43] <tonberryE352> and fm vs am
[14:44] <Trixar_za> Well, I read this on Wikipedia about the rise of 2G and 3G devices
[14:44] <Trixar_za> And I'm speaking from memory
[14:44] <tonberryE352> quality ALWAYS degrades further away from the source
[14:45] <Trixar_za> yes, the rate of derogation is based on the distance from the source. Higher frequency can travel further with less loss of quality than a vastly lower frequency over the same distance.
[14:47] <Kerbero> "rate of derogation" ftf?
[14:47] <Kerbero> *wtf
[14:47] <Kerbero> Trixar_za, imho i don't think you know what you are talking about
[14:47] <tonberryE352> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-space_path_loss
[14:48] <Kerbero> "[16:40] <Trixar_za> The point is, you need more cell towers with lower frequencies to maintain quality" <- that is exactly opposite of what is true
[14:48] <Trixar_za> Just. Read. The. Damn. Wikipedia. Article.
[14:48] <Trixar_za> I'm just going to shut up now
[14:48] <Kerbero> both me and tonberry have degrees in electronic enginering, so i would rather trust us than wikipedia
[14:50] <Trixar_za> Yes, just like GPs and Nurses are qualified to do info commercials on dieting supplements and exercising machines.
[14:51] <Kerbero> no, that is biokineticists
[14:51] <Trixar_za> Exactly.
[14:52] <Kerbero> ok fair enough, we are doing our masters degrees in telecommunication
[14:52] <Trixar_za> Right, now I believe you
[14:53] <Trixar_za> Still, explain to me why new cellphones now use 1800/1900 frequencies compared to the old bricks using the 800/900 frequencies?
[14:54] <tonberryE352> lack of open bands
[14:54] <Trixar_za> And why CellC feels 950 is superior
[14:54]  * superfly is no electrical engineer, but working in the wireless space is enough to be able to agree with Kerbero
[14:54] <tonberryE352> smaller antennas
[14:54] <Kilos> smaller antennae but shorter conerage
[14:54] <Kilos> coverage
[14:55] <Kilos> higher the frequency the closer repeaters must be
[14:55] <Kilos> as with short wave radio and fm
[14:56] <Trixar_za> So that's CellC's deal. They don't have as many towers, so they lower the frequency to avoid having to build and upgrade more of them
[14:57] <Trixar_za> And then they have Trevor sell it as 'better'
[14:57] <tonberryE352> they are just playing the hand they have been dealt
[14:58] <Kerbero> Trixar_za, exactly
[14:58] <Trixar_za> Eh, I still don't like them. They pretty much FUD'ed Virgin Mobile out of the running.
[14:58] <Trixar_za> Slowly degrading service too
[14:58] <Trixar_za> Half the reason I jumped ship to 8ta first chance I got
[15:41] <smile> hi charlvn :)
[15:44] <Trixar_za> Dammit. Stuck on another webcomic
[15:44] <Trixar_za> http://notinventedhe.re/
[15:44]  * Trixar_za shares the suffering
[15:44] <Trixar_za> :P
[15:48] <Kilos> hi smile charlvn
[15:49] <Kilos> superfly, you busy?
[15:49] <Kilos> dont say always
[15:49] <superfly> Kilos: not terribly
[15:49] <Kilos> lol
[15:50] <Kilos> would you advise myunity installed, i think this is still 2d
[15:50] <Kilos> should  rahter stay 2d
[15:50] <Kilos> rather
[15:51] <Kilos> it helps one make more workspaces
[15:51] <Kilos> hehe
[15:51] <Kilos> but it going full unity is gonna slow things down i will stay 2d
[15:52] <smile> hi Kilos :p
[15:52] <Trixar_za> Why not switch to XFCE? :P
[15:52]  * Trixar_za strokes XFCE
[15:53] <Kilos> Trixar_za, this isnt too bad, i said i would give it a full go before changing
[15:53] <Kilos> i didnt enjoy xfce 11.04 much
[15:53] <smile> xubuntu 11.04 you mean, Kilos ? :p
[15:54] <Trixar_za> I was just about to say
[15:54] <Trixar_za> :P
[15:54] <smile> ;)
[15:54] <Kilos> xubuntu ya smile
[15:54] <Trixar_za> XFCE4.6 made some impressive changes. 4.8 is even better
[15:54] <Trixar_za> :P
[15:54] <Trixar_za> <3 XFCE4
[15:55] <Kilos> na i been happy on ubuntu so will give unity a fair chance
[15:55] <Trixar_za> I prefer a lightweight vs. functionality balance myself
[15:58] <smile> Kilos: ok :)
[15:59] <smile> Trixar_za: me too. but i love unity too :p
[15:59] <smile> I don't like KDE much :p
[16:00] <smile> Kilos: I find myunity doesn't have enough options to customise
[16:01] <smile> for example, i would like to remove the workspaces button :p
[16:03] <Kilos> lol
[16:03] <Kilos> i wanted more workspaces that all
[16:03] <smile> lol. :p
[16:03] <Trixar_za> Only thing that really bugs me about XFCE is adding shortcuts to the Taskbar
[16:04] <smile> I want the option to minimise to applet :) for terminal
[16:05] <Kilos> smile, is it only myunity that can doo that or is there another workspace manager thing
[16:07] <smile> Kilos: at the desktop tab, can't you just increase h desktop? :p
[16:07] <Kilos> ?
[16:08] <smile> Kilos: in myunity
[16:08] <smile> :p
[16:08] <Kilos> i havent installed my unity yet
[16:09] <Kilos> waiting to hear from superfly if i go full unity if pc is gonna be slower than 2d
[16:09] <Kilos> hi psydroid
[16:11] <smile> Kilos: Oh i see :p
[16:11] <smile> well for me the graphical effects (compiz) is sitting comfortably at 1% of processor capacity :p
[16:12] <smile> but for you, it may be different
[16:12] <smile> my graphical card is taking care mostly of the effects i think :p
[16:20] <Trixar_za> Arg
[16:21] <Trixar_za> Do you guys know of a flatfile based php snipped that allows you to integrate a basic comments engine?
[16:21] <Trixar_za> snippet*
[16:38] <charlvn> Kilos: you can install compizconfig-settings-manager and use that to manage your compiz configuration
[16:38] <charlvn> then you should be able to disable most of the special effects
[16:38] <Kilos> oh ty charlvn
[16:39] <charlvn> i usually tend to turn all that cr4p off anyway because it just wastes resources and memory
[16:39] <Kilos> i just wanna add 5 desktops
[16:39] <Kilos> other stuff seems ok
[16:40] <charlvn> in gnome3 you can dynamically create new desktops and destroy them
[16:40] <charlvn> not sure how that works in unity though
[16:40] <superfly> sorry Kilos, was called away to supper
[16:40] <Kilos> np
[16:41] <charlvn> Kilos: i should add, be very careful what you do with compizconfig-settings-manager, it's very easy to break things with that
[16:41] <charlvn> Kilos: ask me, i know :)
[16:41] <Kilos> life comes first superfly
[16:41] <Kilos> especially family
[16:41] <Kilos> oh my charlvn
[16:42] <charlvn> Kilos: another tool you might want to try first is called MyUnity
[16:43] <Kilos> lol
[16:43] <superfly> oom, apparently Ctrl+Alt + arrow keys allows you to move between workspaces
[16:43] <Kilos> read bout it, but im in 2d mode and if going my unity is gonna slow pc then ill leave it rather
[16:43] <charlvn> Kilos: MyUnity is a much more user friendly tool, it also lets you tweak the workspace configuration
[16:43] <Kilos> lekker to have things work fast
[16:44] <Kilos> superfly, i just wanna add 5 more
[16:44] <Kilos> the switcher on the left works ok
[16:44] <Kilos> just double work the gnome2 way
[16:45] <charlvn> Kilos: there are two settings, h desktop and v desktop
[16:45] <charlvn> you can create horizontal and vertical desktops like that
[16:45] <Kilos> where are these settings
[16:46] <charlvn> Kilos: in myunity or in compizconfig-settings-manager
[16:46] <Kilos> lol
[16:46] <charlvn> seems like you can use either but i would recommend the former
[16:46] <Kilos> i read up on it
[16:46] <charlvn> strange that these things do not come installed by default
[16:46] <Kilos> also saw some complaints about the button
[16:46] <charlvn> they are both optional packages you have to install later
[16:47] <Kilos> that started with 10.10 i think
[16:47] <charlvn> the button?
[16:47] <Kilos> even aptitude gdebi etc
[16:47] <Kilos> someone wanted to remove the myunity button
[16:47] <charlvn> ah
[16:47] <superfly> Kilos: are you using Ubuntu 12.04?
[16:48] <Kilos> yessir
[16:48] <Kilos> had the funniest experience with the drives. after being here this morning pc lost both sata and ide drives
[16:48] <superfly> Kilos: Apparently MyUnity is the better of the two
[16:49] <charlvn> bbl dinner
[16:49] <Trixar_za> er, what?
[16:49] <Kilos> ok ty superfly will try it
[16:49] <Trixar_za> The student prices is $100 for PyCon?
[16:49] <superfly> Though I personally prefer a less demented desktop environment
[16:49] <charlvn> superfly: the other one has more options but myunity seems to be more user friendly
[16:49] <Trixar_za> What is the full prices then? You're paying as much as a concert ticket to go to a conference about a programming language
[16:49] <Trixar_za> :/
[16:50] <charlvn> Trixar_za: nothing unusual, try going to oscon for example
[16:50] <charlvn> or that mobile conference in barcelona, whatever it's called
[16:50] <Kilos> found that trying to boot with battery in, pc cant see sata drive but booting to bios with battery out sees the sata immediately
[16:50] <Trixar_za> I know they have to pay for the venue, but that's kind of bad
[16:50] <charlvn> yup
[16:51] <charlvn> that's why i like to do unconferences, not regular conferences
[16:51] <charlvn> ok bbl (this time for real) :)
[17:01] <smile> :)
[17:15] <Trixar_za> http://notinventedhe.re/on/2009-11-9
[17:15] <Trixar_za> Yes, because refactoring leads to broken code
[17:20] <Trixar_za> bbl
[17:23] <Kilos> hmm nm disconnects on its own when im away for a while
[17:25] <Kilos> could that be an 8ta prob or some setting here
[17:26] <Kilos> lo nuvolari hoekom so stil
[17:28] <Kilos> hi tumbleweed with maverick if i hovered mouse over nm it showed the signal strenth from the tower, also other goodies in the top panel also gave feedback
[17:28] <Kilos> is it something i must install here or has it been scrapped
[17:38] <tumbleweed> Kilos: no idea if anything will tell you that. I've never seen network manager give me a useful indication of signal strength
[17:39] <Kilos> i dunno what you call them little popup windows with info in
[17:39] <tumbleweed> ah, never looked at that on 3g
[17:39] <Kilos> it shows well on broadband
[17:39] <Kilos> thats how i know when its time to mail vodacom and moan
[17:44] <magespawn> good evening
[17:48] <magespawn> brb
[18:02] <Kilos> himage
[18:02] <Kilos> yo rorr
[18:02] <Kilos> hmm
[18:02] <Kilos> hi roryy
[18:02] <roryy> hey kilos
[18:03] <roryy> how goes?
[18:03] <Kilos> ok ty and you?
[18:03] <roryy> good
[18:03] <Kilos> im trying unity
[18:04] <Kilos> 12.04 at long last
[18:04] <Kilos> hi drussell you see ^^
[18:16] <drussell> Kilos: hey, congrats ;o)
[18:17] <Kilos> lol ty drussell
[18:17] <Kilos> wb magespawn
[18:17] <magespawn> Hey Kilos
[18:18] <smile> Kilos: I almost finished watchin' at animals are beautiful people :p
[18:18] <smile> one minute to go :p
[18:18] <Kilos> lol
[18:18] <smile> while I was on vaction I couldn't watch ;)
[18:18] <Kilos> never mind
[18:18] <smile> jamie uys :p
[18:18] <smile> ^^
[18:19] <Kilos> they good movies hey
[18:19] <Kilos> and funny
[18:20] <smile> :)
[18:31] <smile> bye! :p
[18:31] <Kilos> sleep tight smile
[18:32] <smile> thanks! :)
[18:40] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[19:16] <magespawn> Night all