[00:54] <beuno> zroysch, it really dedpends on the number of files and the size
[00:54] <beuno> are you on Lucid?  Maverick?
[08:00] <duanedesign> morning all
[08:35] <karni> morning
[08:49] <duanedesign> hey karni
[08:50] <karni> :)
[08:50]  * karni hacks U1F on 'building computer systems' lecture ;d
[08:51] <karni> the lecture title is kinda smarter in original language ;D
[08:51] <duanedesign> :)
[08:51] <duanedesign> lost in translation..
[08:52] <duanedesign> http://ubuntu.igameilive.com/2010/12/how-to-measure-your-internet-speed-in.html
[08:52] <duanedesign> dont know what i am going to do in Unity without the Panel :P
[08:53] <duanedesign> not that i need instant access to allthese 'gadgets'
[08:54] <karni> duanedesign: nice applet
[08:54] <karni> duanedesign: I'm putting it back xD (probably)
[08:55] <karni> haven't really used unity, just for testing
[08:55] <duanedesign> i have had trouble with natty lately running unity. So for right now i am on classic desktop
[08:55] <karni> already natty, huh :)?
[08:55]  * karni hides under the carpet with lucid
[08:57] <duanedesign> my server runs Jaunty and my desktop runs natty so I figure that averages out to Lucid :P
[09:01] <karni> duanedesign: :D
[09:01] <karni> jaunty was cool. I loved that login screen http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ubuntu-jaunty.png
[09:03] <duanedesign> my favorite default wallpapers were Hardy and Jaunty
[11:37] <duanedesign> good morning
[11:37] <duanedesign> again :)
[11:37] <duanedesign> the first one was a false start. Went back to sleep for about an hour :)
[11:41] <karni> :D
[13:52] <ralsina> alecu nessita dobey standup in 8'
[13:53] <nessita> ralsina: dobey is on leave, I think
[13:53] <alecu> ralsina, I thought dobey was out on fridays till EOY
[13:53]  * ralsina will someday get his manager superpowers
[13:53] <ralsina> ok then it's just us
[13:59] <ralsina> me
[14:00] <ralsina> damn, 10:59:59 :-)
[14:00] <ralsina> alecu, nessita, standup now
[14:00] <nessita> me
[14:00] <ralsina> alecu ping
[14:01] <alecu> me (finishing notes)
[14:01] <nessita> ralsina: go!
[14:01] <ralsina> DONE: meetings, organizing the upload of desktopcouch, chasing people around
[14:01] <ralsina> TODO: more meetings, finish setting up narwhal VM, finish windows dev. setup, check mandel's windows code
[14:01] <ralsina> BLOCKED: no
[14:01] <ralsina> nessita!
[14:01] <nessita> DONE: almost ready the devices tab, weekly meeting, ussoc packages (awaiting for sponsorship), submitted branches for bug 691292 and bug 690649
[14:01] <nessita> TODO: remove device functionality (bug 691295), meeting re: shares
[14:01] <nessita> BLOCKED: 1/2 blocked: waiting reviews for 2 branches of u1cp
[14:01] <nessita> NEXT: alecu
[14:01] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 691292 in ubuntuone-control-panel (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "DBus error signals should send the object id when available (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/691292
[14:01] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 690649 in ubuntuone-control-panel (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Show devices on Devices tab (affects: 1) (heat: 3034)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/690649
[14:01] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 691295 in ubuntuone-control-panel (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Implement device removal on GUI (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/691295
[14:02] <nessita> reviews pending are:
[14:03] <alecu> DONE: worked on integrating mozmill with test desktopcouchdb instances. Half way thru eric's jslint megabrach
[14:03] <alecu> TODO: wrap up the year
[14:03] <alecu> BLOCKED: still need a windows review for the optional-ziggy branch
[14:03] <nessita> alecu: I can do that review but on linux :-/
[14:03] <ralsina> ok, questions, etc?
[14:03] <ralsina> nessita: send me the branches where you need reviews, I may be able to help
[14:03] <nessita> nah
[14:03] <alecu> nessita, please, do it on linux, and we'll see if it breaks on windows when mandel returns.
[14:03] <nessita> ralsina: YEY
[14:04] <ralsina> alecu: agreed
[14:04] <nessita> alecu: agreed, link please?
[14:04] <ralsina> alecu: noone is going to even try that on windows this week
[14:04] <alecu> ralsina, how comes? I thought you were installing 7 as your host os!
[14:05] <alecu> nessita, https://code.launchpad.net/~alecu/ubuntuone-client/make-ziggy-optional
[14:05] <ralsina> alecu: windows 7 is there, but I am not trying to do anything until mandel is here. I have no clue how to set up the development env.
[14:05] <alecu> ralsina, I guess nobody does :-)
[14:05] <ralsina> I am installing python, bzr, and will try to run the code but I don't expect anything to actually work :-)
[14:07] <ralsina> and who else is running trunk or anything like it win windows? My guess is noone
[14:07] <ralsina> So, I say merge and see if someone notices later
[14:08] <ralsina> eom
[14:08] <nessita> eom!
[14:35] <CardinalFang> joshuahoover, that music user on Android, yes, I suspect the problem is indeed the name of the file.  The external storage could be using FAT filesystem, and the colon could be a problem there.
[14:35] <CardinalFang> Gods, I love MICROS~1 engineering.
[14:37] <joshuahoover> CardinalFang: ah, thanks
[14:37] <CardinalFang> joshuahoover, maybe I'll have a fix in a bit.
[14:38] <joshuahoover> CardinalFang: that would be cool...while i have you...any news on desktopcouch? :)
[14:39] <CardinalFang> joshuahoover, yes, it's coming along.  dob-y's branch should land soon, and then I can release source and then pacakge.
[14:40] <joshuahoover> CardinalFang: great!
[14:41] <joshuahoover> CardinalFang: thank you for all the work on it...i hate having you jump between projects like that but we seem to be "this close" to releasing dc :)
[14:42] <ralsina> joshuahoover: we are in some strange sort of asymptotic release or something :-(
[14:42] <joshuahoover> heh
[14:47] <nessita> alecu: what was the magic to solve "libsyncdaemon/Makefile.am:90: HAVE_INTROSPECTION does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL" when running autogen on u1client?
[14:47] <alecu> nessita, apt-get install gir-something?
[14:50] <nessita> alecu: argh, I'm updating and gir-somehting is being uninstalled and re installed
[14:50] <alecu> nessita, well... it's not "something"
[14:51] <alecu> nessita, it's gir1.0-... and libgirepository1.0-1  I think
[14:52] <alecu> I have installed libgirepository1.0-1, gir1.0-glib-2.0 and gir1.0-soup-2.4
[14:52] <nessita> yeah, I meant that right now all gir-s are being uninstalled
[15:10] <nessita> alecu: update successfull, running the suite now
[15:20] <nessita> alecu: on ubuntuone/platform/windows/__init__.py there is an extra line added in this diff
[15:20] <alecu> nessita, checking
[15:21] <ralsina> alecu, Bug nuevo #674256 no es lo que estabas haciendo en el sprint?
[15:21] <ralsina> Perdon, bug #674256
[15:21] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 674256 in ubuntuone-client (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Store couchdb synchronization events into zeitgeist (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674256
[15:21]  * ralsina exports LOCALE=en
[15:22] <alecu> ralsina, :-)
[15:23] <alecu> ralsina, I worked on syncdaemon events, not couchdb events
[15:23] <ralsina> alecu: oh, right
[15:23] <ralsina> alecu: this one should be easier I suppose
[15:24] <alecu> ralsina, I think CardinalFang (chad) was looking into how to do that
[15:24] <ralsina> alecu: ok, but he's on loan
[15:24] <ralsina> alecu: then again you are on vacation in 6 hours so no difference
[15:24] <alecu> :-)
[15:25] <ralsina> by next wednesday I am going to be managing only my cat and nessita
[15:25] <alecu> hahahaha
[15:25] <alecu> ralsina, only your cat. Nessita manages herself (!?)
[15:25] <ralsina> damn, so does my cat
[15:25] <nessita> :-D
[15:26]  * ralsina considers sayinf nessita is re-cat but decides it's against company policy
[15:26]  * ralsina ducks
[15:26] <nessita> ok, I need to reboot before the mumblemeeting
[15:26]  * nessita brbs
[15:26] <ralsina> ok!
[15:27] <CardinalFang> alecu, ralsina, sorry?  Which events to where?
[15:27] <ralsina> CardinalFang: coudhdb events to zeitgeist
[15:28] <CardinalFang> ralsina, Ah, yes.  I did look, enough to update the proposal in the wiki.  I don't have any working code, though.
[15:29] <ralsina> CardinalFang: OK, great
[15:30] <alecu> ralsina, this is the proposal, updated with the event that are already on trunk, and the missing ones: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Specs/ZeitgeistIntegration/EventsSpec
[15:30] <ralsina> alecu: oh, nice
[15:30] <CardinalFang> ralsina, the hard part will be deciding what genre of events to emit.  (Not "genre", but the voodoo phrasing that zeitgeist uses.)
[15:31] <ralsina> CardinalFang: hey, it makes zeitgeist feel all sciencey
[15:31] <ralsina> I am not classifying stuff, I am applying a whateverology to them
[15:33] <alecu> CardinalFang, is there some protocol that we could use to point at couch databases? (like file:/// or http://)
[15:33] <CardinalFang> Heh.
[15:33] <alecu> CardinalFang, ... are desktopcouch databases always started on a port number that survives reboots?
[15:34] <CardinalFang> Not that either.
[15:34] <CardinalFang> alecu, How would you refer to a PostgreSQL db?
[15:35] <alecu> CardinalFang, for files stored on u1, I made up the "ubuntuone:uuid" url
[15:35] <CardinalFang> Hrm.
[15:35] <ralsina> alecu, mumble?
[15:35] <alecu> and I'm storing the syncdaemon uuid there...
[15:35] <alecu> oh, mumble. sorry
[15:35] <CardinalFang> couchdb:~alecu/databasename ?
[15:36] <alecu> CardinalFang, that makes sense...
[15:36] <alecu> CardinalFang, perhaps desktopcouch:~username/db
[15:36] <CardinalFang> +1
[15:37] <alecu> CardinalFang, I'll be adding a zg ontology to the couch event after this meeting.... I'll ask you to review it afterwards.
[15:38] <CardinalFang> alecu, gladly.
[16:18] <nessita> alecu:  approved
[16:19] <alecu> CardinalFang, here it is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Specs/ZeitgeistIntegration/EventsSpec#CouchDB%20replication%20events
[16:19] <nessita> though FF won't let me actually approve
[16:20] <nessita> alecu: now yes, approved
[16:20] <alecu> nessita, great, thanks!
[16:29]  * nessita -> lunch
[17:48] <CardinalFang> joshuahoover, I just uploaded a new music player to Android Market that should fix Bug #689856.
[17:48] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 689856 in ubuntuone-android-music "Song restarts downloading right after finishing (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/689856
[17:48] <joshuahoover> CardinalFang: excellent!
[17:48] <CardinalFang> joshuahoover, At least, the part I understand and found could be a problem.
[18:22] <alecu> ralsina, nessita: I think I'm done on the Shares UX bulletpoints. Do you care to review it?
[18:22] <nessita> alecu: I'll do it in a while, trying to round up a branch now
[18:23] <alecu> nessita, no prob.
[18:24] <ralsina> sure, I'll check in 5'
[18:27] <alecu> nessita, when you have some time, subscribe to Bug #677382
[18:27] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 677382 in ubuntuone-client (Ubuntu Natty) (and 23 other projects) "gir-repository fails to build from source in natty: eliminate reverse dependencies (affects: 2) (heat: 14)" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/677382
[18:30] <ralsina> alecu: no sabes lo dificil que es usar google docs cuando insiste en mostrar la UI en hebreo :-)
[18:31] <nessita> alecu: not sure I'm getting why I should subscribe to that bug
[18:31] <ralsina> Oh, there. google docs is in english now. Yay!
[18:32] <ralsina> alecu: I think naming can be a bit more consistent, like "A directory shared to a remote user can be deleted by the local user"
[18:32] <ralsina> instead of "to another user"
[18:32] <ralsina> And i think it's a bit confusing in that it could mean "delete the directory" or "stop sharing it"
[18:32] <alecu> fixin
[18:33] <alecu> nessita, you had gir-repository issues recently, didn't you? and it looks like it's going away anyway.
[18:34] <nessita> alecu: the problems I had we caused by automatic removal+adding, caused by python2-6 -> python2.7 (I think). But thanks for the pointer!
[18:39] <alecu> ralsina, replaced "to another user" by "to a remote user", and changed the "delete" phrasing to mean "stop sharing"
[19:28] <CardinalFang> karni, hi hi.
[19:28] <karni> CardinalFang: brb!
[19:30] <karni> CardinalFang: I'm here :)
[19:30] <karni> hi there!
[19:34]  * karni is on-line for the next 3,5 hours
[19:36] <ralsina> alecu: google docs has decided to stop working for me so I'll check the document and (maybe) make changes on monday. Don't worry, nothing big and nessita will check it too, I'm sure.
[19:37]  * nessita nods
[19:37] <nessita> I will hopefully add more relevant info
[20:05] <karni> Chipaca: seems like you've heard the news!
[20:06] <Chipaca> karni: I have! and danced the appropriate celebratory dances
[20:06] <karni> \o/ hahah
[20:06] <karni> you would *not* believe how happy and pleased I am!
[20:06] <Chipaca> :)
[20:07]  * karni has to jump on a skype call
[20:07] <karni> Chipaca: this is the best day ever!
[20:09] <Chipaca> karni: yep :)
[20:09] <Chipaca> karni: congratulations, and see you around (a lot :) )
[20:22] <karni> Chipaca: thank you :) you'll definitely see me here a *lot* :)
[20:22]  * karni goes off-line for 20 min, switching to Windows :F
[20:47]  * karni is back
[21:09] <CardinalFang> BRB, natty updates, reboot.
[21:44] <joshuahoover> CardinalFang: android contacts sync issue... bug #691724 ...i got a log file, let me know if there's more info you (or someone else on the team?) could use to track down the problem
[21:44] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 691724 in ubuntuone-android-contacts "Contacts no longer sync (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/691724
[21:45] <CardinalFang> beuno, did we stab that server yet?
[22:26] <beuno> CardinalFang, funambol?
[23:58]  * karni calls it a (great) day
[23:58] <karni> good night team ^ ^ !
[23:58] <karni> \o


[04:59] <jagginess> coolchapchad is trolling..
 I want tot use E17, but They only have installs for Linix
[15:50] <bazhang> seriously? Linix?
[15:51] <k1l> i want that shiny thing but its only for linix
[15:51] <k1l> seems like e17 is the new 3d cube?
[15:58] <bazhang> wubi in a vm with e17?
[15:59] <bazhang> he seems to be deliberately not understanding at this point
 Because.....well.......shiny....
[16:02] <bazhang> bingo!
[16:52] <Tm_T> e17 is difficult to install on Ubuntu, you have to add ppa and install package(s)
[16:53] <IdleOne> WAT! it isn't default? Canonical hates e17.
[17:11] <DJones> !google > lickalott
[17:14] <guntbert> hi, my suggestion about !bell seems to have got lost - so I repeat it: bell is <reply> For getting an audible bell in gnome terminal (using some sound file instead of the PC speaker) you find complete instructions in http://askubuntu.com/questions/40171/terminal-bell-without-a-pc-speaker
[17:14] <IdleOne> bell is <reply> For getting an audible bell in gnome terminal (using some sound file instead of the PC speaker) you find complete instructions in http://askubuntu.com/questions/40171/terminal-bell-without-a-pc-speaker
[17:14] <IdleOne> ubottu: bell is <reply> For getting an audible bell in gnome terminal (using some sound file instead of the PC speaker) you find complete instructions in http://askubuntu.com/questions/40171/terminal-bell-without-a-pc-speaker
[17:14] <IdleOne> guntbert: done :)
[17:15] <guntbert> IdleOne: thx, and a HAPPY NEW YEAR :)
[17:15] <IdleOne> You too :)


[08:43] <filo1234> hi all
[14:40] <fta> hi, i'd like to update my cloak from unaffiliated to ubuntu/member, anyone?
[14:41] <Pici> fta: Are you an Ubuntu Member? Launchpad page?
[14:41] <fta> ~fta
[14:41] <jpds> PriceChild: Please check out fta's cloak request when you can. Thanks.
[14:42] <jpds> fta: (Ohh, scary, I'm everywhere.) :)
[14:42] <fta> indeed
[14:44] <Rafik> jpds, new ubuntu members have to request the cloak themselves ?
[14:44] <Pici> Rafik: yes.
[14:44] <Myrtti> Yes
[14:44] <jpds> Rafik: A member of the IRC Council has to approve and request that Freenode staff set the cloak.
[14:45] <Rafik> Ok, I'm a new ubuntu member, since 11h UTC
[14:45] <jpds> Rafik: LP page?
[14:45] <Rafik> https://launchpad.net/~rafik
[14:45] <jpds> Rafik: See: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/Cloaks
[14:46] <jpds> Rafik: And please make sure that you have done these steps too: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[14:46] <jpds> Rafik: Congrats too on membership!
[14:47] <Rafik> jpds, Thank you :)
[14:47] <Rafik> jpds, I think my nick is correctly registered (following the instructions)
[14:48] <Rafik> I'm reading the wiki page
[14:48] <jpds> Rafik: See: "/msg NickServ info" - make sure that there is an alternative nick and email sety.
[14:48] <Myrtti> With alt nick grouped to it?
[14:49] <Rafik> yes. I've the mail address and two alternative nicknames
[14:49] <jpds> PriceChild: And Rafik's request too.
[14:50] <Rafik> jpds, Myrtti PriceChild : Thank you :)
[14:53] <Rafik> jpds, I'm using XChat 2.8.4, is this version concerned with the cloak/xchat issue ?
[14:54] <Rafik> as on http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nocloakxchat  : Older versions of xchat have this problem when connecting to freenode:
[14:54] <jpds> Rafik: I think the Ubuntu version is up to date.
[14:55] <Rafik> Ok. cool :)
[19:36] <fta> PriceChild, hi, i'd like to update my cloak from unaffiliated to ubuntu/member, could you help? <= https://edge.launchpad.net/~fta
[19:36] <PriceChild> aha sorry, meant to do this
[19:38] <PriceChild> fta: done
[19:38] <fta> PriceChild, thanks
[19:40] <fta> PriceChild, what about the forums ? is there something special to do ?
[19:40] <PriceChild> fta: one mo
[19:41] <PriceChild> fta: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=445211
[19:42] <fta> PriceChild, thx
[19:45] <fta> can't find where to add my forum nick in lp...
[19:46] <PriceChild> fta: https://edge.launchpad.net/~fta/+edit
[19:47] <fta> am i blind ?? irc, wiki, jabber.. i don't see the forums
[19:49] <PriceChild> "If you are an Ubuntu Member would like a user rank graphic added to your profile, please add your forum username to the home page/description part of your Launchpad account and send e-mail to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>your Launchpad URL."
[19:51] <fta> apart from the free form text field, i don't see where i could that... it's not that i don't want to ;)


[23:27] <MiS> hello, could someone indicate if there is an appropriate channel for ubuntu package makers/maintainers?
[23:27] <pleia2> you want #ubuntu-motu
[23:27] <MiS> pleia2, thanks


 I won't be staying.
[16:31] <smittix> Evening
[16:34] <daftykins> \o


[03:55] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[16:23] <DattattaD> ping
[16:23] <Maik> DattattaD: stop doing that in every channel
[16:23] <Maik> if you want to fool around please do so elswhere
[16:24] <DattattaD> ok sorry my bad
[16:54] <agvantibo> Hello. I am planning to build a PC and use Ubuntu on it for general schoolguy tasks: Zoom, Web browsing, and of course, gaming: Minecraft, SuperTuxKart, retro, etc. Which video card should I buy to both have good performance in said games, and have no problems with the drivers
[16:55] <DattattaD> definitely nvidia something
[16:55] <tomreyn> definitely not nvidia something
[16:55] <DattattaD> amd sucks in support
[16:55] <tomreyn> nvidia sucks in support
[16:56] <DattattaD> besides for gaming windows still best
[16:56] <tomreyn> with the games emntioned, performance can be better on linux than windows
[16:58] <DattattaD> agvantibo: follow tomreyn he is the god of gaming
[16:58] <tomreyn> hah definitely not
[16:59] <tomreyn> agvantibo: as i tried to demonstrate above, there can be different opinions on what's the right choice. for the games you mentioned, you can get away with just an integrated graphics chipset. but, performance can be a lot better with a dedicated graphics card. those also draw a lot more power, though.
[17:00] <tomreyn> for integrated graphics, i.e. both cpu and graphics in one package, your best choice currently is with amd cpus/gpus.
[17:00] <DattattaD> amd graphics has inefficient proprietary driver support on ubuntu because they stopped supporting amd earlier but later on continued
[17:01] <DattattaD> nvidia on the other hand got best proprietary driver support
[17:01] <tomreyn> amd have moved to providing open source drivers, which is great, since those integrate well with linux, unlike nvidias proprietary drivers
[17:02] <DattattaD> open source drivers lacks performance thats why proprietary drivers play roles
[17:02] <tomreyn> ^ please fact check this statement
[17:02] <DattattaD> otherwise theres no need for proprietary drivera
[17:03] <agvantibo> DattattaD: How a manner of development and licensing will surely affect the end product?
[17:03] <tomreyn> see, that's what i'm saying, there's no need for proprietary graphics drivers
[17:03] <DattattaD> i already checked and used both amd and nvidia since 2013
[17:03] <agvantibo> Oh no a holywar starting better get going
[17:04] <DattattaD> wine will lag in open source driver
[17:04] <tomreyn> for dedicated graphics chipsets, nvidia models are usually a little bit faster than amd ones. but going with the amd supported open source drivers can give you a lot of benefits. including not ending up with unsupported hardware because the manufacturer chooses that your hardware reached its end of life.
[17:05] <DattattaD> nvidia still provides update for gt710 regularly
[17:05] <agvantibo> So amd is better for linux with Open drivers, while NVidia is better for linux with Proprietary Drivers. Also amd will keep going 4ever, but NVidia works better w/ Wine
[17:05] <DattattaD> use linux mint u will know through driver manager
[17:06] <tomreyn> i disagree with this "wine works better with nvidia statement", unless there is anything presented to back that up
[17:06] <tomreyn> this channel is about ubuntu, which has a driver manager for hardware which depends on proprietary drivers, too
[17:07] <agvantibo> I don'do a lot of Wine anyway, but I'd like open-source drivers on my machine, also they're reportedly easier to install. So I'm probably going to buy and AMD everything
[17:07] <DattattaD> yeah and in that driver manager no driver for amd proprietary
[17:07] <agvantibo> DattattaD: what?
[17:08] <tomreyn> sure, why would you want to install proprietary drivers for something that doesn't need them
[17:08] <DattattaD> agvantibo: you will suffer with this i was using intel amd on ubuntu at one point of time
[17:08] <tomreyn> what is "intel amd"?
[17:08] <agvantibo> You've meant that there are only Open drivers for AMD Video cards in the Ubuntu drivers software?
[17:09] <agvantibo> same, what is "intel amd"?
[17:09] <DattattaD> yeah
[17:09] <DattattaD> intel processor amd graphics
[17:09] <DattattaD> best intel nvidia
[17:09] <agvantibo> Oh,  I get it
[17:09] <tomreyn> that existed at some point, right
[17:10] <agvantibo> But amd amd is good too, RIGHT?
[17:10] <tomreyn> personally, i think so
[17:11] <tomreyn> there were amd graphics chipsets which did not have good linux support for way too long. but for what i can tell, that's solved now. and for current ones, support is fine.
[17:11] <agvantibo> I mean if I buy an amd motherboard, AMD processor and an AMD graphics card, this will work fine
[17:11] <agvantibo> *finest
[17:12] <tomreyn> you don't need to buy an amd mainboard, and amd graphics cards should also work fine on a system with an intel cpu
[17:12] <agvantibo> Ok, thanks
[17:12] <tomreyn> after all, thanks to the open drivers situation, linux devs can fix any compatibility issues that might come up between those
[17:13] <tomreyn> not so with prooprietary drivers
[17:13] <agvantibo> Also, are there any problems with ethernet and sound card drivers
[17:14] <tomreyn> there are few ethernet chipsets which are problematic nowadays, mostly usb dongle ones, but even there it's rare.
[17:14] <tomreyn> wireless is a different matter
[17:14] <agvantibo> I am not planning to use WIFI in a PC, but I've heard a lot of spoopy stories about nonexistent sound and ethernet card drivers. What exactly would you recommend?
[17:14] <tomreyn> about dedicated sound cards, i don't even know ehether those still exist, do they? or do you mean audio chipsets.
[17:15] <agvantibo> I am talking more "sound devices in general" than "PCI card thingies"
[17:16] <tomreyn> i recommend that you choose two mainboards that you think make sense for you, and look up their audio chipsets, and look up how well those are supported. but with onboard audio chipsets, you hardly have problems nowadays, unless they are very new.
[17:17] <agvantibo> And what about Ethernet?
[17:17] <tomreyn> for desktops, i can only think of intel SOF audio chipsets which used to be a problem on linux for a while
[17:17] <tomreyn> but i think thats solved now
[17:17] <agvantibo> Oh, great
 there are few ethernet chipsets which are problematic nowadays, mostly usb dongle ones, but even there it's rare.
[17:18] <tomreyn> with desktops, you usually don't have problems. but there's hardly a fully reliable way to tell ahead of actually having the hardware assembled and running.
[17:18] <agvantibo> So I don't have to worry much, do I?
[17:19] <tomreyn> not really, unless you are going to buy anything extraordinary and super fancy
[17:20] <tomreyn> if you like, you can post your part list here or in ##linux and ask people to check whether you have picked parts which are likely to cause you issues.
[17:21] <agvantibo> Thanks for the tips! So I'll go with an AMD CPU, AMD GPU, and something else for the motherboard and other stuff, and I should be fine
[17:24] <tomreyn> agvantibo: in case you're not going to buy in one of the primary markets, you need to watch out that you examine the specifications closely. a three year old cpu can have a very similar name to the current product line and be a lot slower.
[17:24] <tomreyn> and there can be shops selling you very old ones.
[17:25] <tomreyn> if you're on a budget, buying from china shops who offer warehouses in your country / economic (tax) zone, can help you save.
[17:27] <tomreyn> ordering from china / taiwan directly can help you save more, but at the risk of loosing the device at customs (those thnigs vary a lot by where you'll order to).
[17:28] <agvantibo> I'll try and pay attention to that, amd cpu names are a bit puzzling
[17:29] <tomreyn> there are many web sites discussing those. there are also websites helping you choose compatible parts, such as pcpartpicker.com
[17:30] <tomreyn> the folks in the ##hardware channel will probably have more suggestions on that (though i think they are quite focussed on the U.S. market)
[17:32] <tomreyn> you may be from russia, based on your ip address. i must say i have no experience with buying hardware there. all i know is that china online shops also offer warehouse imports there,a nd also sell to there.


[01:08] <bazhang> his use of the word 'screen' makes his question a bit confusing
[01:09] <ikonia> yes
[09:15] <ilhami> hey
[09:15] <ilhami> now one day has gone
[09:15] <ilhami> can you remove my ban nowW?+++
[09:15] <ilhami> I have some serious problems with my ubuntu dist.
[10:55] <k1l> i dont think the case for unban is that the user got an issue. its more about the behaviour of the user
[12:38] <ilhami> :)
[12:38] <ilhami> ikonia, bazhang
[12:51] <IdleOne> ilhami: Why were you banned in the first place?
[12:56] <ilhami> IdleOne, dunno. They didnt like my behavior. They thought i used enter as punctuaction.
[12:57] <IdleOne> Do you think perhaps they were correct?
[12:57] <ilhami> Nope. I am not a bad person.
[13:00] <IdleOne> I don't think they said you were bad person
[13:51] <k1l> !hes
[13:51] <k1l> !enablement stack
[13:52] <k1l> !enablementstack is The Ubuntu LTS enablement stacks provide newer kernel and X support for existing LTS releases. see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack
[13:58] <IdleOne> !enablementstack
[13:58] <IdleOne> !no enablementstack is <reply> The Ubuntu LTS enablement stacks provide newer kernel and X support for existing LTS releases. see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack
[13:58] <IdleOne> !enablementstack
[13:58] <k1l> i dont know the syntax to remove the first stuff.
[13:58] <k1l> ah yes
[13:59] <IdleOne> !enablementstack
[13:59] <IdleOne> meh, rate limit
[13:59] <k1l> !enablementstack
[13:59] <IdleOne> there we go
[14:00] <k1l> yep, looks good. thanks
[14:00] <IdleOne> !ltse
[14:00] <IdleOne> ubottu: ltse is <alias> enablementstack
[14:00] <IdleOne> !ltse
[16:19] <ikonia> @btlogin
[18:02] <ilhami> when will I get unbanned?
[18:03] <ilhami> ikonia, bazhang, IdleOne
[18:05] <ilhami> k1l
[18:12] <bazhang> ilhami, hi
[18:16] <bazhang> ilhami, you need something? respond
[18:20] <ilhami> I am banned from #ubuntu
[18:20] <ilhami> bazhang.
[18:20] <ilhami> they said they would remove the ban today.
[18:21] <bazhang> ilhami, who said that, why were you banned
[18:21] <ilhami> I was banned because they felt I was too provoking. Dunno.
[18:21] <bazhang> nope
[18:22] <bazhang> you had no ubuntu issues, just asking for the channel owners
[18:22] <bazhang> and then you started cursing out those answering you
[18:23] <bazhang> since you have no ubuntu support issues ilhami why would you need to be unbanned there
[18:24] <ilhami> bazhang, I do have some.
[18:24] <bazhang>  /msg chanserv access #channel list   ilhami
[18:25] <bazhang> ilhami, that will tell you the channel owners
[18:25] <ilhami> bazhang, okay. But can you unban me now?
[18:26] <bazhang> ilhami, no
[18:27] <ilhami> Why not?
[18:27] <ilhami> They said one day.
[18:27] <ilhami> They said "come back tomorrow".
[18:28] <bazhang> come back here , to discuss
[18:28] <bazhang> not come back here , you are unbanned
[18:29] <ilhami> I am not unbanned. Just tried.
[18:29] <bazhang> correct
[18:30] <ilhami> it should happen within a few hours I expect.
[18:30] <bazhang> no
[18:30] <ilhami> yes. that's what they said.
[18:30] <bazhang> the ban stays.
[18:30] <ilhami> for how long?
[18:31] <bazhang> there is no set time
[18:31] <ilhami> so when can I expect to be unbanned?
[18:31] <bazhang> ilhami, since you have trouble remaining on topic, cursing out others for no reason, I dont feel confident in unbanning you at this time
[18:32] <ilhami> cursing?
[18:32] <ilhami> is saying "moron" cursing?
[18:32] <bazhang> yes
[18:32] <ilhami> No it's not.
[18:32] <ilhami> and I was on topic. Since when is 14.04 not supported by Ubuntu?
[18:33] <ilhami> since when was it outdated? I had Ubuntu questions but they were ignored.
[18:33] <bazhang> name-calling, cursing, telling people to shut up <--never welcome
[18:33] <ilhami> and I said I would stop that.
[18:33] <bazhang> it was stopped, yes
[18:34] <ilhami> good and I won't do it again.
[18:34] <bazhang> correct, as you are banned
[18:34] <ilhami> I have been banned for a day now.
[18:35] <ilhami> I think that's pretty fair for saying one bad word.
[18:35] <bazhang> and the bans stays until such time we feel you can responsible use the channel
[18:35] <bazhang> which is not now
[18:35] <ilhami> and I just told you I can.
[18:35] <ilhami> so when will you ever know if I can?
[18:35] <ilhami> and how?
[18:36] <ilhami> if I can't prove it somehow?
[18:36] <bazhang> try askubuntu.com and the ubuntuforums for your supprt needs at this time ilhami
[18:36] <ilhami> bazhang, answer my question.
[18:37] <ilhami> how do you expect me to prove my maturity to you?
[18:37] <bazhang> ilhami, the ban stays. it will not be lifted now. use those resources listed above
[18:38] <ilhami> I will evade the ban :)
[18:38] <ilhami> bye
[18:38] <ilhami> I will change my nick as well.
[18:38] <ilhami> and use another ip
[18:38] <bazhang> bye
[18:39] <ilhami> yep
[18:39] <ilhami> see you in #ubuntu
[23:30] <k1l_> wincus: jonwincus hi, can we help you?
[23:52] <ikonia> wincus: are you there ?


[09:27] <AlexExtreme> hey Keybuk, i'm having a few problems with my set of jobs I'm writing :/
[09:27] <Keybuk> oh, what's up?
[09:28] <AlexExtreme> i've got the mount-kernel-filesystems job which runs on startup, that runs ok
[09:28] <AlexExtreme> then there are jobs with 'start on stopped mount-kernel-filesystems ok'
[09:28] <AlexExtreme> none of those are run
[09:28] <Keybuk> sounds like mount-kernel-filesystems is failing
[09:28] <Keybuk> did you try --debug?
[09:28] <AlexExtreme> doh, there's a debug option
[09:29] <AlexExtreme> it also doesn't work if I omit the ok part
[09:29] <Keybuk> definitely sounds like it's failing
[09:30] <AlexExtreme> hmm
[09:30] <Keybuk> (need to get that information into "initctl jobs" somehow)
[09:31] <Keybuk> it shows up in initctl events
[09:31] <AlexExtreme> it seems to be hanging.... the last command in the mount-kernel-filesystems script is an echo which I put there for debugging, upstart gives no debug output after that
[09:31] <Keybuk> doubt it's hanging
[09:31] <AlexExtreme> so it handles the starting event, and it's now in the started state
[09:31] <AlexExtreme> nothing happens after that
[09:32] <Keybuk> I usually have jobs like "exec openvt -c 2 initctl jobs" and "exec openvt -c 3 initctl events"
[09:32] <Keybuk> run on startup
[09:32] <Keybuk> they're handy for debugging as well
[09:33] <AlexExtreme> http://frugalware.org/paste/886 << that's the job, can you see any problems with it?
[09:34] <Keybuk> not offhand
[09:35] <Keybuk> oh
[09:35] <Keybuk> sorry
[09:35] <Keybuk> it *doesn't* work if you omit "ok"
[09:35] <Keybuk> that's interesting
[09:35] <AlexExtreme> yeah
[09:36] <Keybuk> grep for mount-kernel-filesystems in other jobs
[09:36] <AlexExtreme> http://frugalware.org/paste/887
[09:37] <Keybuk> hmm
[09:38] <Keybuk> nothing blocking there
[09:38] <Keybuk> what does init do with --debug?
[09:38] <AlexExtreme> hold on, i'll take a screenshot
[09:39] <AlexExtreme> http://www.alex-smith.me.uk/files/upstartdebug.png
[09:40] <Keybuk> interesting
[09:40] <AlexExtreme> the "End of kernel fses" is an echo at the end of the job
[09:40] <AlexExtreme> last command in the job, should exit ok
[09:41] <Keybuk> it doesn't look like it's reaped the child
[09:41] <Keybuk> this is in vmware?
[09:41] <Keybuk> oh, qemu
[09:41] <Keybuk> ok
[09:41] <Keybuk> add a shell
[09:42] <Keybuk> start on startup
[09:42] <Keybuk> exec openvt -c 2 bash
[09:42] <Keybuk> --
[09:42] <AlexExtreme> k, hold on
[09:42] <Keybuk> then change m-k-f to be started when that's started (start on started shell)
[09:42] <Keybuk> you should then be able to Alt+F2 and see what's up
[09:43] <Keybuk> also would be useful:  init=/usr/bin/strace init
[09:43] <AlexExtreme> that's weird...
[09:44] <AlexExtreme> it won't start the shell
[09:44] <AlexExtreme> i think it's because i'm booting qemu with -kernel, -append, etc without using a real bootloader inside it
[09:46] <AlexExtreme> i'll try a real install, give me a few mins
[09:47] <Keybuk> that shouldn't matter?
[09:47] <AlexExtreme> no, it messes with the consoles i think, because openvt fails
[09:50] <Keybuk> odd
[10:07] <Keybuk> (at least you're not trying to run it in openvz :p)
[10:08] <AlexExtreme> :)
[10:09] <Keybuk> still not sure what *that* bug is
[10:09] <Keybuk> I strongly suspect openvz doesn't give init pid #1 :p
[10:09] <AlexExtreme> hmm
[10:10] <AlexExtreme> does openvt require the device node for the vt you're trying to open, by any chance?
[10:11] <Keybuk> oh, could do
[10:11] <Keybuk> heh
[10:11] <AlexExtreme> udev hasn't run yet ;)
[10:11] <Keybuk> I always debug this stuff with an initramfs that takes care of that kind of thing
[10:12] <AlexExtreme> ah, well
[10:12] <AlexExtreme> frugalware has no initramfs (yet)
[10:12] <AlexExtreme> we're gonna add support for initramfs soon though
[10:13] <Keybuk> can you try the strace thing?
[10:14] <AlexExtreme> i'm about to
[10:17] <AlexExtreme> it doesn't like that because init isn't pid 1
[10:18] <Keybuk> oh, meh
[10:18] <Keybuk> I so need to add something for that ;p
[10:19] <AlexExtreme> :)
[10:19] <AlexExtreme> brb, need to get some food
[10:29] <AlexExtreme> back
[10:29] <Keybuk> ;)
[10:29] <AlexExtreme> now
[10:29] <AlexExtreme> to me it seems that it's a bug in upstart
[10:30] <Keybuk> something's not right, certainly
[10:30] <Keybuk> what kernel?
[10:30] <AlexExtreme> <IP_ADDRESS>
[10:31] <Keybuk> it looks like it's not getting SIGCHLD
[10:31] <Keybuk> or getting stuck there
[10:31] <Keybuk> run bash with console owner on startup
[10:35] <AlexExtreme> k
[10:35] <AlexExtreme> got a shell
[10:35] <AlexExtreme> weirsd
[10:35] <AlexExtreme> *weird
[10:35] <AlexExtreme> initctl list says mount-kernel-filesystems is waiting and in the stop stare
[10:35] <AlexExtreme> *state
[10:35] <AlexExtreme> damn keyboard
[10:36] <Keybuk> odd
[10:36] <Keybuk> --debug shows nothing?
[10:36] <AlexExtreme> debug doesn't say anything about stopping
[10:37] <Keybuk> hmm
[10:38] <Keybuk> you're always going to mount a fresh /dev over the top there, aren't you
[10:38] <Keybuk> is there a /dev/console FILE by any chance? :p
[10:39] <Keybuk> if so ... cat it
[10:41] <AlexExtreme> no console
[10:41] <Keybuk> that's your problem, anyhoo
[10:41] <AlexExtreme> it's there on the actual filesystem but not on the ramdisk
[10:41] <Keybuk> no /dev/console, no /dev/null
[10:41] <Keybuk> can't start jobs in that state
[10:41] <AlexExtreme> ack
[10:42] <AlexExtreme> i'll have mount-kernel-filesystems create it then
[10:42] <Keybuk> if you look at my example mount-kernel-filesystems job, I make sure to copy those devices into the ramdisk from /lib/udev/devices
[10:42] <AlexExtreme> yeah
[10:42] <AlexExtreme> but there's no null or console in that dir for some reason ;)
[10:48] <Keybuk> you don't copy them in at all
[10:59] <Keybuk> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/ComplexEventConfig/UseCases
[11:03] <AlexExtreme> hmm
[11:07] <AlexExtreme> quick question: the scripts are run with -e... how would i stop it from terminating the script if a command gives an error?
[11:13] <Keybuk> || true
[11:14] <Keybuk> on each command that you want to ignore the error for
[11:16] <AlexExtreme> k
[11:16] <Keybuk> (or ||: )
[11:17] <Keybuk> I tend to dislike that because it looks like Perl
[11:17] <AlexExtreme> yeah
[11:18] <Keybuk> :; is just as bad
[11:27] <AlexExtreme> yay
[11:27] <AlexExtreme> i've converted the whole of frugalware's rcS.d to upstart jobs
[11:28] <AlexExtreme> pretty simple ones though, i haven't done anything about responding to udev events yet
[11:29] <Keybuk> how are you handling mounting the filesystem?
[11:31] <AlexExtreme> it's just a straight conversion of the SysV scripts atm
[11:32] <Keybuk> ah right
[11:37] <_ion> Throwing random ideas around, episode 59:
[11:37] <_ion> start on filesystem-checked
[11:37] <_ion> emits filesystem-mounted
[11:37] <_ion> block script
[11:37] <_ion>     prereq_mountpoints=...
[11:37] <_ion>     for m in $prereq_mountpoints; do
[11:37] <_ion>         echo "wait filesystem-mounted MOUNTPOINT=${m}";
[11:37] <_ion>     done
[11:37] <_ion> end script
[11:37] <_ion> The block script is run whenever the job is being started. If it prints any 'wait' lines, the job only goes to 'starting' when all corresponding events have been received.
[11:37] <_ion> Race conditions are avoided (or are they?) by not processing new events until the currently running block script has finished (thus the writer of job must be careful with what she does inside a block script)
[11:39] <Keybuk> that's quite similar to something iwj and I discussed a while back
[11:39] <Keybuk> let me see if I can dig it out
[11:40] <Keybuk> its possible its on my old laptop
[11:41] <Keybuk> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/d/upstart.text
[11:46] <Keybuk> (it's somewhat insance, since ian wrote it, but the core is the idea that upstart implements a turing complete programming language which jobs can use to respond to events in a race-free manner -- since the program is run before the next event, rather than alongside)
[11:48] <_ion> Interesting.
[11:52] <_ion> But determining the prerequisite mountpoints based on the current MOUNTPOINT env var surely needs shell scripting or running external processes some other way. Using that syntax, how would one achieve that?
[11:53] <Keybuk> that's what I thought
[11:53] <Keybuk> it was a lot of complexity for no visible gain
[12:03] <AlexExtreme> nice
[12:03] <AlexExtreme> http://frugalware.org/~alex/bootchart-upstart.png
[12:04] <AlexExtreme> compared to this from sysvinit: http://frugalware.org/~alex/bootchart-sysvinit.png
[12:07] <_ion> Looks like the connection to frugalware.org is going to timeout.
[12:07] <AlexExtreme> strange
[12:07] <AlexExtreme> works here
[12:09] <_ion> traceroute reaches taurus.int.elte.hu (<IP_ADDRESS>). After it it's all * * *s.
[12:10] <AlexExtreme> hold on, let me drop it on my server
[12:11] <AlexExtreme> http://www.alex-smith.me.uk/files/bootcharts/
[12:11] <_ion> Now the pictures loaded.
[12:11] <pkt> AlexExtreme: yes but it seems that with sysinit you were running more services, correct?
[12:11] <_ion> But if i reload, it's "connecting..." again for ages.
[12:11] <AlexExtreme> yes, i know, it's not completely accurate
[12:12] <Keybuk> 18s is nice
[12:12] <pkt> also, are you running SMP?
[12:12] <AlexExtreme> pkt, no, this was in a vmware VM, it was only using 1 core
[12:12] <pkt> That is nice :-)
[12:13] <pkt> I guess the worst thing in startup time is the shell scripts (especially when they do extensive fs ops)
[12:14] <AlexExtreme> yes
[12:14] <Keybuk> that's what einit tries to address
[12:14] <pkt> with very carefully tuned sysvinit + scripts I could do ~25s in a 386sx/25 (2.6.8 stripped down)
[12:15] <pkt> Of course some current subsystems take more time to initialize :-(
[12:15] <AlexExtreme> now i need to try and work out what the hell is wrong with my fsck script, it seems to interfere with the sysv compat stuff. if fsck gets run, it tries to run runlevel 4 and runlevel 0 at the same time
[12:15] <_ion> Would converting dash to a library and linking to it instead of execing shells help at all?
[12:15] <_ion> (with upstart, that is)
[12:15] <AlexExtreme> probably
[12:15] <AlexExtreme> but that wouldn't work for distros without dash
[12:16] <pkt> _ion I think redhat does something close to that with their shell
[12:16] <pkt> they have something that includes several typically external programs as libraries
[12:16] <pkt> but is not usable as a shell (i.e., not interactive)
[12:17] <pkt> Of course, this caused both positive and negative feelings to many :-)
[12:25] <Keybuk> isn't that just busybox?
[12:26] <pkt> Keybuk: no, it is (was?) a redhat-specific shell-like thing that included e.g., functionality for setting up LVM/RAID etc
[12:26] <pkt> but I 'm forgetting its name ...
[12:26] <Keybuk> ok
[12:26] <Keybuk> what einit does it has C modules that handle the common things like setting hostname, checking and mounting filesystems, activating swap, etc.
[12:26] <Keybuk> in practice, these things aren't that configurable (it's not like a shell script, which you can just edit)
[12:27] <Keybuk> and everything is configured from one large einit.xml
[12:27] <_ion> The initialization of dash doesn't take long, so the answer to my question is probably "no".
[12:27] <_ion> dash -c ''  0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 0.009 total
[12:27] <pkt> yep the xml part sucks
[12:27] <pkt> _ion, I don 't think that dash per se is the problem
[12:28] <pkt> usually the problem is like an "abstraction penalty" for using unix utilities for stuff that would only take a few lines of C code
[12:28] <_ion> (Side note: "perse" in Finnish means an arse.)
[12:29] <pkt> oops :-)
[12:29] <pkt> but I did leave a blank
[12:29] <Keybuk> ie. forking then execing grep, which loads localisation libraries and parses a file linewise matching against regular expression objects ... instead of using strstr()
[12:30] <pkt> exactly (and I could think of even worse stuff when amateur admins are involved :-)
[12:31] <Keybuk> e.g. /etc/event.d/hostname
[12:31] <Keybuk> the shell version looks something like:
[12:31] <Keybuk>  - stat /etc/hostname
[12:31] <Keybuk>  - fork/exec cat: fopen/stat /etc/hostname, read, write to stdout, close, capture stdout into variable
[12:31] <Keybuk>  - compare variable against empty string
[12:31] <Keybuk>  - fork/exec hostname: capture stdout
[12:32] <Keybuk>  - compare variable against empty string
[12:32] <Keybuk>  - set variable to localhost
[12:32] <Keybuk>  - fork/exec hostname, set hostname
[12:32] <Keybuk> in C, that might be:
[12:32] <Keybuk>  - gethostname()
[12:32] <Keybuk>  - fopen(/etc/hostname)
[12:32] <Keybuk>  - if opened: fgets
[12:33] <Keybuk>  - else if still unset: strcpy
[12:33] <Keybuk>  - sethostname()
[12:33] <Keybuk> 4 syscalls instead of ~100
[12:33] <_ion> Yeah
[12:34] <pkt> Keybuk: the only problem is that you can only provide "embedded" functionality in the "shell" for very simple stuff (those that cannot be configured in a gazillion different ways)
[12:35] <Keybuk> pkt: I don't follow?
[12:35] <pkt> E.g., redhat that provides the LVM functionality in their "shell" actually provides a "stripped-down" version
[12:35] <Keybuk> ah
[12:35] <Keybuk> I see
[12:36] <pkt> Otherwise you get a *huge* "shell/interpreter" which is again a loss
[12:36] <pkt> It is, as always, a tradeoff :-)
[12:36] <Keybuk> flexibility vs. speed
[12:37] <pkt> Actually "speed for a special case" or "robust speed"
[12:37] <Keybuk> a while ago, a friend and I wondered whether it'd be possible to write a scripting language based around syscalls
[12:38] <pkt> that is roughly what I thought as well, that sort of a "DSL" for booting would provide the largest benefit/cost ratio
[12:38] <Keybuk> DSL?
[12:39] <_ion> Domain-specific language IIRC
[12:39] <pkt> Domain-Specific Language, yep
[12:39] <Keybuk> right
[12:39] <pkt> but I view upstart as being an important step towards this direction
[12:40] <Keybuk> right now we have <action> exec and <action> script, we can always add <action> foo later :p
[12:41] <Keybuk> pre-start perl ...
[12:41] <Keybuk> end perl
[12:41] <Keybuk> :p
[12:41] <AlexExtreme> ugh :p
[12:41] <_ion> Haha
[12:41] <pkt> :)
[12:42] <pkt> I think the important think in upstart is to think really hard about the interactions of the base system components (especially for desktops)
[12:42] <pkt> This is no trivial problem (which is why I have seen no perfect "job" set or job language yet)
[12:43] <pkt> Once this is sorted out more or less it will be much easier to take the "extra step"
[12:43] <Keybuk> robust first, speed later
[12:44] <pkt> Plus it may be proven that the extra speed doesn 't really matter after all
[12:45] <pkt> But the really hard stuff (at least for me) is to figure out how to support as many common use-cases as possible with as few "artificial waits" as possible
[12:45] <pkt> And do that in a world where stuff (from all levels of the stack) come and go all the time
[12:46] <pkt> (think e.g., ATA over Ethernet over WLAN :-)
[12:46] <Keybuk> indeed
[12:48] <pkt> plus the fact that e.g., a developer will want to also start/stop stuff on demand
[12:51] <pkt> and the fact that some unix beasts (like shells) are a bit "special" on how you need to handle them
[12:51] <pkt> Or they loose their settings :-)
[12:51] <pkt> s/settings/history
[01:00] <Keybuk> heh
[01:02] <pkt> yep, *every single pitfall* of sysvinit, I 've hit it ;-)
[01:02] <AlexExtreme> :)
[01:04] <AlexExtreme> random thought: sysvinit scripts provide a start and a stop. with upstart, to do the stop part you'd have to create a seperate job, no? (at least, for things that aren't daemons, like saving mixer settings. daemons would get SIGTERM)
[01:05] <Keybuk> you can do it either way
[01:05] <Keybuk> could you have a mixer-settings job that restored them in pre-start and saved them in post-stop
[01:05] <Keybuk> then you could "start mixer-settings" and "stop mixer-settings" :p
[01:05] <Keybuk> or you could have two separate jobs that do it in script
[01:06] <Keybuk> it depends what makes more sense really
[01:06] <Keybuk> you could do that for everything
[01:06] <Keybuk> ie. have a hostname job that sets the hostname in pre-start but does nothing in post-stop
[01:07] <Keybuk> (or even unsets it)
[01:07] <Keybuk> then the "hostname" job would be running all the time the hostname was set
[01:07] <Keybuk> and you could stop hostname to unset it
[01:07] <Keybuk> and restart the job to reset it
[01:07] <AlexExtreme> but
[01:07] <Keybuk> but that makes somewhat less sense than just having a set-hostname task
[01:07] <AlexExtreme> if you did it with pre-start and post-stop
[01:08] <AlexExtreme> wouldn't it not work because you need an exec/script/respawn/whatever ?
[01:08] <Keybuk> no
[01:08] <Keybuk> those are optional
[01:08] <AlexExtreme> hmm
[01:08] <Keybuk> you can have process-less jobs now
[01:08] <Keybuk> it was supposed to work in 0.3.5, but I broke it just before release
[01:08] <Keybuk> it works in trunk
[01:09] <AlexExtreme> but if they were missing and you did start mixer-settings, wouldn't it run the pre-start script, then jump straight to stopping and run post-stop?
[01:11] <Keybuk> no, sticks in running
[01:11] <AlexExtreme> ah
[01:11] <AlexExtreme> ok
[01:12] <Keybuk> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/JobsAsStates
[01:14] <AlexExtreme> ah
[01:14] <AlexExtreme> I see
[01:15] <Keybuk> I tend to think in terms of what a sysadmin would rather do
[01:15] <Keybuk> what makes more sense
[01:15] <AlexExtreme> :)
[01:15] <Keybuk> stop the mixer job to save them and mute the card
[01:15] <AlexExtreme> sounds logical
[01:15] <Keybuk> (and thus restart the mixer to save the settings)
[01:16] <Keybuk> or run the save-mixer-settings job to save them
[01:22] <Keybuk> I can't decide whether we need lots of small options for job control "start on", "stop on", "when", "from", "foo", etc.
[01:22] <Keybuk> or just one big option
[01:43] <AlexExtreme> IMO one big option would be too complex, i personally like it with small options
[01:43] <AlexExtreme> btw, what is the problem with logd?
[01:44] <Keybuk> kill it, any job with it as stdout ends up dying mysteriously and silently
[01:44] <AlexExtreme> ah :/
[02:53] <Keybuk> so interestingly:
[02:53] <Keybuk> some jobs can be defined by what starts or stops them
[02:53] <Keybuk> but others it's easier to define by when they should be running
[03:45] <AlexExtreme> hmm
[03:45] <AlexExtreme> ACTION=="add", SUBSYSTEM=="block", KERNEL=="*[!0-9] ", RUN="/sbin/initctl emit block-device-added %k"
[03:46] <AlexExtreme> is that rule ok for a block device added?
[03:46] <AlexExtreme> or should I add -eDEVNAME=%k too?
[04:42] <elpaso> hello
[04:43] <elpaso> is there anybody out there?


[15:43] <thafreak> Morning Ohio
[15:43] <paultag> thafreak: morning
[15:43] <thafreak> I need an idea database...
[15:43] <jrgifford> thafreak, ideas are overrated.
[15:44] <thafreak> some place i can put ideas...and associated notes, urls, etc
[15:44] <thafreak> yes, but they distract me
[15:44] <thafreak> i'll be working on something and have an idea and feel the need to fully pursue it
[15:44] <paultag> thafreak: newt gingrich has something like that, I'm told
[15:44] <thafreak> so i want to archive my ideas for later
[15:44] <thafreak> oh brother
[15:45] <thafreak> i'm serious people
[15:45] <paultag> ah nevermind
[15:45] <paultag> The joke going around in the late 1980s was that the NRCC had a whole room full of file Cabinets, with every drawer in the room labeled “Newt’s ideas.” Well, every drawer but one. The drawer in the bottom corner of the dingiest file cabinet was labeled “Newt’s good ideas.” . . .
[15:45] <thafreak> don't start talking about assholes
[15:45] <paultag> it was a joke, i'm told new
[15:45] <paultag> now
[15:46] <thafreak> you been hanging around them sunlight people too much ;)
[15:46] <paultag> thafreak: true :)
[15:46] <thafreak> is it really a front for an ancient sect of vampire hunters?
[15:46] <paultag> ssshhhhhh
[15:46] <paultag> not so loud
[15:46] <thafreak> cause that would make good fodder for a trillogy
[15:48] <thafreak> anyone hear of this new "e-hammer" technology for optical drives?
[15:48] <paultag> no, but it sounds scary
[15:48] <thafreak> sounds like it ruins recordable media so you don't have to shred the disks or scratch them
[15:49] <thafreak> probably just fills in the entire disk with pits...
[15:49] <dzho> e-hammer, don't hurt 'em
[15:50] <thafreak> so, my in-laws hired a new designer...who seems more of a windoze person and uses some software called rhino or something
[15:50] <thafreak> which is winblows only
[15:50] <thafreak> but they bought her a mac
[15:50] <thafreak> and put parallels on it
[15:51] <dzho> huh
[15:51] <thafreak> and bought...32bit windows 7
[15:51] <thafreak> so this rendering software which sounds like it gobbles ram, they're running virtually
[15:51] <dzho> rhino is the name of a javascript environment, for one thing.  that doesn't sound like it fits here.
[15:51] <thafreak> needless to say, it doesn't work so hot
[15:51] <thafreak> nah, it's some 3d rendering stuff
[15:52] <dzho> ah, right, I see it now rhino3d.com
[15:52] <thafreak> i don't know why they spend all this money on stuff and don't bother asking my opinion
[15:52] <dzho> "NURBS modeling for Windows"
[15:52] <dzho> what sort of business are they in, thafreak
[15:53] <thafreak> if something needs tons of ram...i wouldn't run it on a mac...ram is REALLY expensive on those things
[15:53] <thafreak> they build trade show exhibits
[15:53] <dzho> well, expensive, or inconvenient, or both
[15:53] <thafreak> They just did an exhibit for SMS audio at CES
[15:53] <dzho> if the ram slots are exposed, getting it 3rd party is not so bad
[15:53] <dzho> thafreak: as in, they design the booth?
[15:54] <thafreak> probably not, they probably filled it with small sized dimms
[15:54] <thafreak> yeah, designed, built, transported, set up, etc
[15:54] <dzho> cool
[15:54] <thafreak> Some times I feel i should work there...to prevent them from making bad choices about technology
[15:55] <dzho> I get the feeling Blender has sucked a lot of the air out of a lot of the areas it touches on for FOSS
[15:55] <thafreak> but everyone else in the family works there...don't want to fall into that trap
[15:55] <thafreak> what do you mean?
[15:55] <thafreak> like taken some of the thunder from other foss projects?
[15:56] <dzho> that, and attention of developers and demand from customers and so on.
[15:56] <dzho> "it's ok, we've got GIMP and OpenOffice" that sort of thing.
[15:56] <dzho> and in the meantime, people stick with Photoshop and MS Office
[15:57] <thafreak> I wonder if I can get them to use blender at my inlaws...that'd be awesome
[15:57] <thafreak> well, the average person "knows" ms office's interface
[15:57] <thafreak> it's all about familiarity
[15:58] <thafreak> they don't want to learn something different
[15:58] <thafreak> i should say, the average business user
[15:58] <thafreak> but, if they use MS office at work, that's also what they want to use at home
[15:59] <thafreak> Also, an example from my life, my mom was working on her associates degree, i told her to try open office
[15:59] <dzho> nevermind that absent bulk license agreements the version you use at work is more expensive than anyone wants to pay
[15:59] <thafreak> she said she liked it, but felt she will be using M$ office at her potential future job, so she wanted to "learn" that
[15:59] <thafreak> oh yeah, my mom also found that out
[15:59] <dzho> this is where I like to emphasize the difference between "training" and "education"
[16:00] <dzho> training is what you do to an animal, to get it to do what you want it to do for you
[16:00] <thafreak> she was all, i really want to "leanr" M$ office, but I don't want to pay $120 for the student version
[16:00] <thafreak> she was trying to get me to tell her how to get it for "free"
[16:00] <dzho> education is an improvement of general understanding, relating to things that are basic truths, rather than ephemeral design features
[16:01] <thafreak> i laughed, and told her that's illegal
[16:01] <dzho> it's tough, I know
[16:01] <thafreak> dzho: this is very true
[16:01] <thafreak> will you please talk to all the universities and community colleges
[16:02] <thafreak> and convince them to stop offering "Microsoft Office" "classes"
[16:02] <thafreak> I want to apply to teaching jobs at smaller universities, until I see that their "Technology" instructors teach classes about M$ office
[16:03] <thafreak> and tell all the HR people to stop putting "proficinecy in Microsoft Office" as job requirements...
[16:04] <dzho> well, sounds like they've already got covered what you don't want to do, and have needs in an area that you do want to do :-)
[16:04] <thafreak> no they don't
[16:04] <thafreak> they don't offer classes on linux
[16:05] <thafreak> U Akron is the only one I've found so far that specifically has a series of linux classes!
[16:08] <dzho> they need *new* classes is my point
[16:08] <dzho> eg, a class you do
[16:09]  * canthus13 yawns.
[16:13] <thafreak> i know that, but they don't know that
[16:13] <yano> anyone use DuckDuckGo?
[16:13] <thafreak> unless some one gives them buckets of money, they won't change
[16:13] <thafreak> i don't care for duckduckgo, but I try to use it
[16:13] <thafreak> to help mint out
[16:14] <dzho> thafreak: have you had this conversation with anyone at any of those places?
[16:14] <dzho> I mean, maybe you're right.
[16:14] <yano> apparently they passed the 1 million searches a day: http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/02/duck-duck-go-passed-1mm-searches-per-day.html
[16:15] <dzho> yano: I've set the default page on several of my browsers to https://duckduckgo.com/html
[16:15] <dzho> so I go back and forth quite a lot between it and google
[16:16] <yano> dzho: me too, i've been using ddg as my primary search engine for a few months
[16:19] <dzho> yano: you default to SSL and non-javascript?
[16:19] <yano> dzho: yep
[16:19]  * dzho daps yano
[16:19] <yano> dzho: occasionally i'll try their tor hidden service
[16:19] <yano> http://3g2upl4pq6kufc4m.onion/
[16:19] <dzho> I haven't gone that far, but I salute you
[16:20]  * dzho should dig more into tor
[16:20] <yano> i'm surprise the Tor Browser Bundle doesn't default to using DuckDuckGo's Tor hidden service as the main search engine
[17:48] <thafreak> it should say something that I basically only have a windows vm for watching netflix right?
[17:49] <yano> thafreak: i use to do that, but the fps were way too slow
[17:49] <yano> i only watch android on my phone or my ps3
[17:50] <yano> s/android/netflix/
[18:01] <thafreak> watching on my tablet is nice...but i usually leave that at home
[18:02] <thafreak> anyone know of a way to determine which of your firefox tabs is causing the browser to peg at 99% cpu usage?
[18:06] <dzho> I just start killing flash instances
[22:45] <thafreak> And now I've seen it all
[22:45] <thafreak> got a spam that used ASCII art
[22:46] <Unit193> I could PM spam you ascii. Email? What for? :P
[23:29] <jrgifford> thafreak, i <3 duckduckgo.
[23:29] <jrgifford> although for a lot of things i end up doing !bing $query
[23:29] <jrgifford> so it doesn't really help me haha
[23:30] <jrgifford> the oneboxing thing is nice though.
[23:33]  * Unit193 Google
[23:40]  * canthus13 yawns.
[23:47] <Unit193> You sure do yawn a lot. :P
[23:47] <canthus13> Haha. there's a guy on ebay selling XP OEM CDs with broken laptop drives to get around the hardware requirement for reselling OEM CDs.


[08:37] <aaii_> Hi, I have a problem about webhook in cloud-init , And I don't recieve any report from webhook.
[08:37] <aaii_> This is my cloud-init.cfg : http://paste.debian.net/1201811/
[08:38] <aaii_> And this one is my flask web server for recieve them: http://paste.debian.net/1201809/
[08:47] <aaii_> And in var/log/messages I see failed posting event