[06:10] <mborzecki> morning
[06:34] <mborzecki> mvo: hey
[06:38] <mvo> mborzecki: hey, good morning
[06:40] <mborzecki> mvo: in the context of https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/apps-not-in-desktop-search-menu/15275 do you recall why we didn't add a user env generator?
[06:41] <mvo> mborzecki: hm, I thought we had a generator
[06:41] <mborzecki> mvo: we have a system-env generator
[06:41] <mvo> mborzecki: indeed, I think there is no reason then
[06:42] <mvo> mborzecki: maybe it was because older systemds do not support this yet?
[06:42] <mborzecki> mvo: mhm, i'll add one and we can ship it selectively if needed
[06:44] <mvo> mborzecki: +1
[07:04] <zyga> Hello :-)
[07:05] <mborzecki> zyga: hey
[07:07] <mvo> hey zyga
[07:15] <mborzecki> zyga: do you still have that opensuse vm? https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/error-while-loading-shared-libraries-on-opensuse-tumbleweed/15285
[07:17] <mup> PR snapd#8073 closed: daemon: drop support for the DELETE method <Created by chipaca> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8073>
[07:53] <zyga> mborzecki: sure
[07:53]  * zyga is in the office now
[07:54] <zyga> weird
[07:56] <zyga> I'll try
[07:57] <zyga> mborzecki: offtopic, stuff from weekend: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2018/p1095r0.pdf
[07:59] <zyga> mvo: have you seen https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1861648
[07:59] <mup> Bug #1861648: When booting 20.04 an 'ld-2.23.so' process consumes 100% CPU for minutes <champagne> <focal> <performance> <snapd (Ubuntu):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861648>
[07:59] <zyga> mvo: could that be fontconfg?
[07:59] <zyga>  (or related?)
[08:01] <pstolowski> morning
[08:02] <zyga> hey pawel, welcome back
[08:02] <mborzecki> pstolowski: hey, all rested?
[08:03] <mvo> zyga: it could be, slightly strange but possible
[08:03] <mvo> pstolowski: hey, welcome back! we missed you :)
[08:03] <mvo> pstolowski: (in a good way)
[08:04] <mborzecki> `error: too early for operation, device not yet seeded or device model not acknowledged` wonder if we could prouce something more friendly instead of this error message
[08:04] <zyga> mborzecki: oh yeah
[08:04] <zyga> I saw that a few times
[08:04] <zyga> and it's very precise and very useless
[08:05] <mborzecki> zyga: annoying when it happens on `snap install` right after you installed the snapd package
[08:05] <zyga> yeah, I wonder if snap <foo> from command line could block and hold while stuff like that happens
[08:05] <zyga> but that's a separate concern from just making a readable message
[08:06] <zyga> like "snapd is performing first-boot setup process, please wait (10%)"
[08:07] <zyga> mborzecki: updating suse (882 updates over weekend)
[08:07] <zyga> mborzecki: I'll try those snaps in a moment
[08:07] <pstolowski> hey guys! yep, rested, i had great time with my family; i only wish there was more snow
[08:08] <zyga> pstolowski: I think you had more snow than the rest of poland :)
[08:08] <zyga> but yeah, I wish this winter was better
[08:12] <zyga>  mborzecki wow
[08:12] <zyga> type=AVC msg=audit(1580717508.948:224): apparmor="DENIED" operation="mknod" profile="/usr/lib/snapd/snap-confine" name="/sys/fs/cgroup/devices/snap.poddr.poddr/cgroup.procs" pid=4155 comm="snap-confine" requested_mask="c" denied_mask="c" fsuid=0 ouid=0
[08:12] <zyga> type=AVC msg=audit(1580717508.948:225): apparmor="DENIED" operation="open" profile="/usr/lib/snapd/snap-confine" name="/sys/fs/cgroup/devices/snap.poddr.poddr/cgroup.procs" pid=4155 comm="snap-confine" requested_mask="wc" denied_mask="wc" fsuid=0 ouid=0
[08:13] <pstolowski> zyga: yeah.. but temperatures revolving around 0C (only) were not expected
[08:13] <zyga> mborzecki: we have ... denials?
[08:13] <zyga> ah. wait, maybe I have two profiles
[08:13] <zyga> one left over from work
[08:13] <zyga> sigh
[08:16] <zyga> mborzecki: replied there, I think leap may be broken, TW is okay
[08:27] <zyga> I need a 2nd +1 for https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8033
[08:27] <mup> PR #8033: tests: switch mount-ns test to differential data set <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8033>
[08:27] <zyga> I'd like to merge it before it drifts
[08:45] <pstolowski> mvo: how was last week? anything remarkable?
[08:45] <pstolowski> pedronis: morning!
[08:47] <pedronis> pstolowski: hi
[09:08] <mborzecki> it'd be so nice if systemd manpages indicated whic version of systemd given feature first appeared in
[09:19] <pedronis> pstolowski: I will look at the preseed PRs later today, I fixed some conflicts on the first on Friday.
[09:20] <pedronis> pstolowski: maybe you could finish reviewing #8036 ?
[09:20] <mup> PR #8036: snapstate: refactor things to add the re-refresh task last <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8036>
[09:20] <pstolowski> pedronis: sure. and thanks for updating preseed PR
[09:24] <mborzecki> hmm, so we have /lib/environment.d and /etc/profile/snapd.sh but environment for zsh user is still not getting updated
[09:35] <pedronis> mborzecki: hi, I can do a follow up about that name, if there's a preference
[09:36] <mborzecki> pedronis: nah, it's ok, not worth another spread run
[09:38] <mborzecki> zyga: do you recall whether it's possible to start a user session in the tests somehow?
[09:46] <zyga> re
[09:46] <zyga> mborzecki: I think it is
[09:46] <zyga> mborzecki: I've done something -ish- like that
[09:46] <zyga> mborzecki: well, I didn't start a full user session but I did start a dbus session bus
[09:46] <zyga> mborzecki: what I found out is that some PAM / distro / i-dont-know-what settings do start a user session for the test user
[09:46] <zyga> mborzecki: because we observed that it runs stuff and shuts down asynchronously
[09:47] <mborzecki> quick errand, back in 30 or so
[09:48] <zyga> lp timeouts
[09:48] <zyga> oh well
[09:48] <zyga> back to work
[09:50] <pedronis> pstolowski: thanks
[09:50] <mup> PR snapd#8036 closed: snapstate: refactor things to add the re-refresh task last <Created by pedronis> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8036>
[09:59] <mvo> pstolowski: last week was interesting, 2.43 a wee bit delayed but hopefully just 1 week
[10:11] <pstolowski> mvo: uhm, just browsed last-week standup notes (they are very useful to catch up btw!)
[10:11] <mvo> pstolowski: yeah, when at the sprint I had the same feeling, very useful
[10:13] <mup> PR snapd#8080 opened: dirs: manjaro-arm is like manjaro <Bug> <Simple 😃> <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8080>
[10:14] <zyga> mvo: in case 2.43.x will happen ^
[10:15] <mvo> zyga: thank you
[10:28] <mborzecki> re
[10:49]  * zyga goes offline for 2-3 hours
[10:58] <mup> PR snapd#8081 opened: tests/main/user-session-env: add test verifying environment variables inside the user session <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8081>
[10:58] <mborzecki> simple test ^^
[11:17] <mborzecki> still, something is off with zsh as indicated in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zsh/+bug/1640514
[11:17] <mup> Bug #1640514: /snap/bin is not added to the PATH when using zsh <patch> <Snappy:Fix Released> <snapd (Ubuntu):Confirmed> <zsh (Ubuntu):Invalid> <snapd (Ubuntu
[11:17] <mup> Xenial):Confirmed> <zsh (Ubuntu Xenial):Invalid> <snapd (Ubuntu Bionic):Fix Released> <zsh (Ubuntu Bionic):Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640514>
[11:39] <mborzecki> zyga: little tweak in #8080
[11:39] <mborzecki> cachio: hey, welcome back!
[11:39] <mup> PR #8080: dirs: manjaro-arm is like manjaro <Bug> <Simple 😃> <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8080>
[11:41] <cachio> mborzecki, heu, thanks
[11:42] <cachio> mborzecki, trying to start again :)
[11:47] <pstolowski> cachio: hi! have you seen my earlier email re nested vm, and comments under #8046 ?
[11:47] <mup> PR #8046: many, tests: integrate all preseed bits and add spread tests <Complex> <Needs Samuele review> <Preseeding 🍞> <Created by stolowski> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8046>
[11:47] <cachio> pstolowski, no yet
[11:47] <cachio> pstolowski, hello :)
[11:48] <pstolowski> cachio: ah, you were on vacation as well!
[11:48] <cachio> pstolowski, yes :)
[11:49] <cachio> caching up emails, logs and other stuff yet
[11:49] <cachio> pstolowski, I'll take a look to the PR
[11:49] <cachio> today for sure
[11:50] <pstolowski> cachio: i'll deconflict it in a moment
[11:54] <mup> PR snapd#8082 opened: data, packaging: Add sudoers snippet to allow snaps to be run with sudo <Created by Conan-Kudo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8082>
[12:05] <mvo> cachio: hey, welcome back!
[12:05] <cachio> mvo
[12:05] <cachio> hello
[12:05] <mup> PR snapd#8033 closed: tests: switch mount-ns test to differential data set <Created by zyga> <Merged by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8033>
[12:05] <cachio> mvo, reading logs for 43.2
[12:06] <cachio> mvo, is .1 going to stable? or we should go with .2?
[12:07] <mvo> cachio: we will need .2 instead, it's already in beta
[12:08] <mvo> cachio: so once beta validation is done it can go into candidate
[12:08] <mvo> cachio: and then we can release to stable in 1 week
[12:08] <cachio> mvo, ok
[12:09] <cachio> mvo, i'll continue with the beta validation in that case
[12:10] <zyga> mborzecki: thank you!
[12:10] <zyga> cachio: welcome back :)
[12:10] <mvo> cachio: thank you!
[12:11] <cachio> zyga, hi
[12:19] <Eighth_Doctor> blergh
[12:19]  * Eighth_Doctor waves
[12:20] <Eighth_Doctor> it's been a while since I've had to send a patch snapd upstream :P
[12:20] <Eighth_Doctor> mvo: it's been a while :)
[12:22] <Eighth_Doctor> mvo, zyga: by the way, I'm surprised you guys haven't reaped the Ubuntu 14.04 packaging from git
[12:22] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: it's still supported
[12:22] <Eighth_Doctor> don't tell me you guys are still building for Ubuntu 14.04?!
[12:22] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: have you heard of ESM?
[12:22] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: we may have to
[12:22] <Eighth_Doctor> blergh
[12:22] <zyga> https://ubuntu.com/esm
[12:23] <Eighth_Doctor> somebody better giving you a huge bag of money for that
[12:23] <zyga> "Security updates for 14.04 LTS until 2022"
[12:23] <Eighth_Doctor> ugh
[12:23] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: it's free for personal use
[12:24] <Eighth_Doctor> I can see that, and that deeply concerns me :(
[12:24] <zyga> why?
[12:24] <Eighth_Doctor> disincentive for upgrading
[12:25] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: it's enterprise stuff
[12:25] <zyga> you can upgrade when you are ready
[12:25] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: I'm sure that using ESM and paying for it
[12:25] <Eighth_Doctor> yeah, yeah
[12:25] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: versus using the update for free
[12:26] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: is a good incentive
[12:26] <zyga> plus, it keeps developers employed :)
[12:26] <Eighth_Doctor> heh, sure
[12:26] <Eighth_Doctor> the only difference between RH/SUSE and this model is that there's a "the first hit is free" thing like Oracle does...
[12:27] <Eighth_Doctor> I just think it probably introduces a stronger disincentive when it's possible to get it for free
[12:27] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: I don't have a problem with the ESM thing, just the fact it is available for free for personal use
[12:27] <zyga> ah
[12:27] <zyga> well
[12:28] <zyga> you can always pay :)
[12:28] <zyga> you get cool stuff
[12:28] <Eighth_Doctor> haha
[12:28] <Eighth_Doctor> I don't have bags of money
[12:28] <zyga> like kernel live patch
[12:28] <zyga> it's not expensive
[12:28] <Eighth_Doctor> the livepatch stuff is interesting though
[12:28] <ogra> and you get a discount because you met zyga in person ;)
[12:28]  * Eighth_Doctor still has his legacy KSplice free subscription for Fedora
[12:29] <Eighth_Doctor> haha
[12:29] <Eighth_Doctor> sadly, I know how the sausage is made for kernel livepatches
[12:29] <ogra> shhhh
[12:29] <Eighth_Doctor> I try very hard to avoid them if I can ;)
[12:30]  * Eighth_Doctor was once asked to make kernel livepatches using kpatch
[12:31] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: if I could afford to, I'd buy subs from all my favorite Linux distro companies :)
[12:31] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: if you want to support, $25 gives you desktop ESM license
[12:31] <Eighth_Doctor> nice
[12:31] <zyga> you get fips, livepatch, some other fancy acronyms
[12:31] <Eighth_Doctor> I'll consider it
[12:31] <zyga> probably desirable in corporate world
[12:31] <zyga> for somewhat more you get phone support
[12:32] <zyga> prices for servers and vms are different though
[12:32] <zyga> but yeah
[12:32] <zyga> you can just use it for free because it's pretty damn cool :)
[12:32] <zyga> and it's meant to be adopted by personal users
[12:32] <zyga> because that makes everyone safer
[12:32] <Eighth_Doctor> fair
[12:32] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: if you guys offered Fedora support... :P
[12:33] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: you can run it in a container :)
[12:33] <Eighth_Doctor> hah
[12:33] <Eighth_Doctor> I don't think I've run Ubuntu as my desktop OS since 2012
[12:33] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: but I think if you want to start supporting fedora IBM will look at you with The Eye
[12:33] <Eighth_Doctor> actually, they're super weird about this
[12:33] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: I heard 20.04 is looking like a sweet system :)
[12:33] <Eighth_Doctor> they want more people to commercially support Fedora
[12:33] <pedronis> pstolowski: answered your question in 7590
[12:34] <pstolowski> thx
[12:34] <Eighth_Doctor> but some folks give you the stink-eye when you do it for CentOS
[12:34] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: are you ubuntu community member? you can get it on up to 50 machines for $0
[12:34] <Eighth_Doctor> what does that mean?
[12:34] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: the fedora/centos/rhel split is still making me dizzy
[12:34] <Eighth_Doctor> I have an Ubuntu account on LP
[12:35] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: it's going to get less confusing in the near future
[12:35] <zyga> Eighth_Doctor: fedora/rhel would be better, if you had a way to get no-cost unsupported rhel
[12:35] <zyga> abyway
[12:35]  * zyga needs to focus
[12:35] <Eighth_Doctor> fedora -> centos -> rhel
[12:35] <zyga> fedora -> rhel -> centos?
[12:35] <zyga> or more like
[12:35] <Eighth_Doctor> going forward, fedora will branch into centos, and centos will branch into rhel
[12:35] <zyga> fedora <-> rhel <-> centos <- to fedora ->
[12:35] <Eighth_Doctor> that's starting with CentOS 8
[12:35] <Eighth_Doctor> with the CentOS Stream
[12:36] <Eighth_Doctor> which is essentially what RHers will tell you is rhel-rawhide
[12:36] <Eighth_Doctor> so Fedora is where the cool shit happens, CentOS Stream is where it stabilizes, RHEL/CentOS Linux is the end state
[12:37] <Eighth_Doctor> over the next ~6 months, the RHEL development process is being flipped public as part of the CentOS Stream infrastructure bringup
[12:38] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: on another note, looking at my LP account, I created it shortly after Ubuntu 5.10 (breezy badger) released
[12:38] <pstolowski> pedronis: right, ty, i forgot it's for core
[12:39] <Eighth_Doctor> zyga: it actually predates my FAS account and my openSUSE account by two years ;)
[12:39] <Eighth_Doctor> https://launchpad.net/~ngompa13
[12:43] <mborzecki> cachio: can you take a look whther centos-8 is avaialble in gcp already?
[12:44] <cachio> mborzecki, sure, let me check
[12:44] <mborzecki> ijohnson: hi, already around? :P
[12:45] <cachio> mborzecki, it is available now
[12:45] <mborzecki> cachio: great, would it be possible for you to add it to the project then?
[12:45] <cachio> do you weant a pr to enable it ??
[12:45] <cachio> mborzecki, sure
[12:45] <mborzecki> cachio: i can open a PR once you tell me the image name
[12:46]  * pstolowski lunch
[12:47] <cachio> mborzecki, try with centos-8
[12:47] <mborzecki> cachio: thx
[12:47] <cachio> mborzecki, but I would need to add it to our pool
[12:48] <cachio> mborzecki, but in the meantime you can use that one
[12:54] <mborzecki> cachio: yay, it works             - centos-7-64:
[12:54] <mborzecki>                 workers: 4
[12:54] <mborzecki>                 image: centos-7-64
[12:54] <mborzecki> PRETTY_NAME="CentOS Linux 8 (Core)"
[12:55] <cachio> mborzecki, centos 7?
[12:55] <mborzecki> cachio: nah, wrong paste ;)
[12:56] <mborzecki> cachio: see the PRETTY_PRINT=.. line
[12:58] <cachio> mborzecki, which is this PRETTY_NAME ?
[12:58] <cachio> mborzecki, where do you see it?
[12:59] <mborzecki> cachio: PRETTY_NAME="CentOS Linux 8 (Core)" <--
[13:00] <mup> PR snapd#8083 opened: spread: add CentOS 8 <⛔ Blocked> <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8083>
[13:05] <cachio> mborzecki, does not work for us that version?
[13:05] <ijohnson> mborzecki: not quite yet :-)
[13:06] <cachio> mborzecki, well you said that works
[13:06] <mborzecki> cachio: i was able to boot a node, so a good sign (?), let's how spread tests will fare
[13:06] <mborzecki> ijohnson: haha, sure will poke you in a bit
[13:07] <cachio> mborzecki, nice, the only change we are doing to centos is to set selinux as permissive
[13:49] <mup> PR snapcraft#2893 closed: [legacy] meta: include environment in hook wrappers <Created by kyrofa> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2893>
[13:49] <ijohnson> morning folks
[13:49] <mup> PR snapd#8084 opened: many,randutil: centralize and streamline our random value generation <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8084>
[13:55] <pstolowski> hey ijohnson !
[13:55] <ijohnson> hey pstolowski did you have a good vacation ?
[13:57] <pstolowski> ijohnson: yep, thanks for asking!
[13:57] <ijohnson> nice, I saw your picture of the mountains with the snow, very beautiful :-) it actually got really warm here over the weekend and a bunch of our snow melted
[13:59] <pstolowski> ijohnson: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g9I2qGgGfpgYCyLWCHbrXlVzRnrRR_tN/view?usp=sharing
[14:00] <pstolowski> zyga,mborzecki ^ morskie oko :)
[14:02] <zyga> mmm
[14:02] <zyga> I want holidays with snow
[14:03] <ijohnson> pstolowski: awesome, I'm jealous we don't have mountains nearby me :-)
[14:10] <Eighth_Doctor> mvo, mborzecki: I think this is officially a sign that snapd has too many tests
[14:10] <Eighth_Doctor> when the tests fail because it takes too long to run (!)
[14:12] <mvo> Eighth_Doctor: in a meeting right now, sorry, will get back to you
[14:14] <mborzecki> Eighth_Doctor: hmm probably snap downloads taking too long
[14:15] <mborzecki> happens from time to time
[14:26] <ogra> stgraber, so i tried to build a preseeded image with lxd ... which seems to work fine but then console-conf doesnt allow me to add a default user to the core image at all anymore, seems lxd created a user that console-conf now considers the images system user ... https://imgur.com/a/fqu7xrS
[14:29] <ogra> stgraber, how did you test your daemon.preseed change ?  i cant really verify it that way ...
[14:33] <ogra> (this is most likely a console-conf bug, to not ignore such users (i bet docker is the same here) i'm just wondering how you verified the poatch without being able to log into the image)
[14:34] <ogra> *patch
[14:35] <cachio> mborzecki, do you need permisive mode on centos-8?
[14:36] <mborzecki> cachio: yes, we'll probably need it because most tests are not taking care of the labeling properly
[14:36] <cachio> mb
[14:36] <cachio> mborzecki, ok
[14:38] <ogra> pedronis, see above .. if i add lxd to required-snaps in the model (which creates an lxd user in the extrausers db), console-conf doesnt offer me to create a default user ... i assume snapd now considers the image managed, yet it isnt ... would that be a snapd bug, a console-conf one or ... ?
[14:39]  * ogra isnt sure if console-conf queries for "managed" here
[14:39] <ogra> (or if that is even the right conclusion)
[14:40] <zyga> I figured out why mi microphone was not working
[14:40] <zyga> I was playing with the wireless headphone charging case
[14:40] <zyga> and flipping it open pairs the devices
[14:40] <zyga> so I kept switching the microphone back and forth
[14:40] <zyga> and that apparently confused hangouts
[14:54] <mborzecki> hangouts gets confused quite easily
[15:04] <roadmr> it's so confused it isn't even called hangouts anymore 😆
[15:05]  * zyga goes to check on his son
[15:05] <zyga> Janek has fever and stayed at home today
[15:06] <roadmr> zyga: my sympathies and a bowl of warm soup - fever sucks
[15:21] <zyga> yeah, we just gave him some meds to reduce the fever as it's been too long (since 6AM)
[15:40] <mup> PR snapd#8085 opened: [RFC] netutil: add default gateway monitor <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8085>
[15:40] <zyga> mvo: looking
[15:45] <mborzecki> ijohnson: 8082 hit the timeout again?
[15:45] <ijohnson> mborzecki: uh yes
[15:46] <ijohnson> did you already restart it before ?
[15:46] <mborzecki> ijohnson: yeah :/
[15:46] <ijohnson> I've got a bad feeling about this :-(
[15:46] <mborzecki> ijohnson: let's see, maybe 3rd time's the charm :P
[15:47] <zyga> mvo: reviewed
[15:47] <ijohnson> mborzecki: fingers crossed
[15:48] <cachio> mborzecki, centos-8 is failing to install yum install system-lsb-core
[15:49] <cachio> mborzecki, perhaps we could install redhat-lsb-core instead
[15:50] <zyga> mvo: do you have an LTE modem?
[15:50] <zyga> mvo: I think it would be great to test it on one
[15:50] <zyga> mvo: if you need I can test it locally with mine
[15:54]  * cachio lunch
[16:13] <mvo> zyga: I have one, haven't used it in a while, can do the test in a wee bit
[16:30] <zyga> back from lunch
[16:33] <zyga> mvo: cool, let me know if you want assistance, I can help as well
[16:56] <mup> PR snapd#8072 closed: daemon, store: better expose single action errors <Created by chipaca> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8072>
[17:02] <ijohnson> mmm I've got a really bad feeling about these tests that depend on the store
[17:03] <zyga> ijohnson: <chewie roar>
[17:04] <ijohnson> :-)
[17:39]  * zyga takes a coffee break
[17:53] <ijohnson> anybody have an idea why all of a sudden LP jobs can't git clone snapd ? https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/CDJG8DVyPV/
[17:54] <ijohnson> hmm I guess I can't clone the master branch in LP either
[17:59] <cjwatson> yes git.launchpad.net is down, see #is
[17:59] <cjwatson> ijohnson: ^-
[17:59] <ijohnson> cjwatson: ah thanks
[17:59] <cjwatson> (BTW I only see stuff here by chance - if you want LP staff to see stuff it's more reliable to ask in LP channels)
[18:00] <ijohnson> cjwatson: I checked is-outage and didn't see anything about it in the topic, perhaps #is is a better place to check
[18:00] <cjwatson> #is-outage isn't a place where customers of IS are supposed to report things, normally
[18:00] <cjwatson> so I don't :)
[18:01] <ijohnson> cjwatson: fair enough :-) also did you mean the internal launchpad channel or freenode one?
[18:01] <cjwatson> Either
[18:01] <cjwatson> #launchpad-ops on irc.c.c, #launchpad on freenode
[18:02] <cjwatson> Anyway, should be fixed soonish
[18:02] <ijohnson> great, thanks
[18:43] <mup> PR snapd#8082 closed: data, packaging: Add sudoers snippet to allow snaps to be run with sudo <Created by Conan-Kudo> <Merged by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8082>
[19:51] <pedronis> ijohnson: I did another pass on 8077
[19:53] <ijohnson> pedronis: thanks responding now
[20:00] <pedronis> ijohnson: I'm not sure whether revisions should error on incosistent trySnap vs status
[20:00] <pedronis> in general we should try not to get stuck
[20:01] <ijohnson> I guess it would be a question of where we would get stuck
[20:01] <pedronis> ijohnson: if we are trying or try but there's no try kernel
[20:02] <pedronis> I suppose we behave like status is just = ""
[20:02] <pedronis> we should clean it up
[20:02] <ijohnson> we would get stuck in InUse, and GetCurrentBoot it seems
[20:02] <pedronis> yea
[20:02] <pedronis> so no upgrades
[20:02] <pedronis> we should probably not error
[20:02] <ijohnson> I think cleaning up in GetCurrentBoot makes sense, but not so sure about InUse, seems odd if InUse auto-cleans things
[20:02] <pedronis> but make it a task for mark successful
[20:02] <pedronis> to clean it up
[20:02] <pedronis> ijohnson: well we always do a mark sucessful pass
[20:02] <pedronis> before doing other things
[20:03] <pedronis> it's run early in snapd
[20:03] <ijohnson> hmm
[20:03] <ijohnson> that would make sense
[20:03] <ijohnson> just to clarify, when you say "make it a task for mark successful" you don't mean an actual manager task right? just that mark successful should clean up ?
[20:03] <pedronis> yes
[20:03] <ijohnson> ok
[20:04] <pedronis> I think it has code already in that direction
[20:04] <pedronis> but in uc20
[20:04] <pedronis> we have links and status
[20:04] <pedronis> that are not quite in the same spot
[20:04] <pedronis> maybe the code is already there
[20:04] <pedronis> just a matter of having a test
[20:05] <ijohnson> I'll have a look at that as well
[20:05] <ijohnson> if you were curious I did go ahead and implement setting kernels in modeenv in bootstate20 quickly and this is the result: https://github.com/anonymouse64/snapd/commit/de7f8fe36cb83da51a400b05100dd37a1b19246f
[20:05] <ijohnson> it would be quite a bit less changes to the tests if we did it in coreKernel, but it's up to you
[20:06] <pedronis> that code seems to load modeenv twice for mark succeful?
[20:07] <pedronis> it's also not dropping them
[20:08] <ijohnson> pedronis: I don't think it's loading it twice
[20:08] <pedronis> anyway is probably best to get 8077 in first
[20:08] <ijohnson> pedronis: also yes that's my big question about when to drop them
[20:08] <ijohnson> we don't want to drop them in markSuccessful
[20:08] <pedronis> why not?
[20:08] <pedronis> ah because of possible undos?
[20:08] <ijohnson> because then the modeenv won't trust the kernel snap if we reboot?
[20:09] <ijohnson> yes undos basically
[20:10] <pedronis> but we never boot anything but the kernel or the try-kernel
[20:10] <pedronis> by definition
[20:11] <ijohnson> hmm I guess if we did an undo/revert then setNext() would still be called on the one we are reverting to
[20:11] <pedronis> so I think it's less complicated than we think
[20:11] <pedronis> but anyway we need to get 8077 right first
[20:12] <ijohnson> mmm yes I think you're right I was thinking we would need to be able to rollback further than what is in kernel.efi, but that isn't necessary actually
[20:12] <ijohnson> re 8077 yes I am refactoring that now
[20:15]  * cachio afk
[20:18] <sdhd-sascha> big, big thank you, to jhenstridge ... really great to build snap's on github now:
[20:18] <sdhd-sascha> https://github.com/sd-hd/termite-snap/runs/423070604
[20:18] <sdhd-sascha> Next, i hope we can "snap" some wayland-desktop ;-)
[20:19] <pedronis> mmh, the shellcheck version we use in travis is slightly old and seems to get confused about grep --exlude
[20:20] <ijohnson> do we not use shellcheck as a snap ?
[20:22] <pedronis> no, seems we use a package
[22:05] <mup> PR snapcraft#2901 closed: python plugin: do not leak snapcraft's site-packages <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2901>
[22:12] <sergiusens> ijohnson: fwiw, we have been using the snap for over a year
[22:14] <ijohnson> sergiusens: nice yes that what I use on my dev machine is the snap, probably safe enough to switch spread over to use the snap
[22:18] <pedronis> ijohnson: thanks for the changes, seem the suggestion made sense,  I made a couple more comments to maybe clean up some things a little bit more
[22:19] <ijohnson> pedronis ok looking now
[22:20]  * cachio eod
[22:35] <pedronis> ijohnson: going to call it a day
[22:36] <ijohnson> pedronis yes probably a good idea considering the time :-)


[08:56] <dholbach> get me a cup as well
[08:56] <dholbach> please :-)
[08:56] <ogra> sure
[08:56] <\sh> hmmm...
[08:57] <Nafallo> hmm, I wonder if I need workrave or something...
[08:57] <dholbach> workrave is gooood
[08:58] <ogra> silly sheep...
[08:58] <jani> hello all
[08:58] <dholbach> hai jani
[08:58] <tritium> doh!   BOF specs
[09:02] <jani> what's with those like
[09:02] <jani> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmaImplementation
[09:02] <ajmitch_> hi chmj
[09:02] <jani> they link to password protected area on canonical.com
[09:02] <ogra> milk
[09:02] <ogra> `
[09:02] <ogra> ?
[09:02] <ogra> sugar ?
[09:03] <dholbach> just sugar, thanks
[09:03] <\sh> no milk no sugar just black...
[09:03] <dholbach> jani: those are for the malone/launchpad crew, i'm not sure when it will hit us other guys
[09:03] <jani> dholbach, thanks
[09:03] <chmj> hi ajmitch_
[09:04] <\sh> oh malone...is it working again?
[09:04] <dholbach> ok... can we get cracking?
[09:04] <dholbach> doko just finished briefing us about our next big target: UniverseCxxTransition
[09:05] <dholbach> you will find the rationale for all this well described on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreezyToolchainTransition
[09:05] <dholbach> maybe we should all dive into it for some seconds :-)
[09:06] <dholbach> especially the points after "C++ ABI Transition" are of big importance for all of us
[09:07] <dholbach> in short: as the C++ ABI with g++4.0 will break we will have to recompile ALL c++ packages
[09:07] <dholbach> unfortunately just recompiling wont suffice
[09:07] <ajmitch_> which means finding any package that uses c++
[09:07] <dholbach> doko did a lot of work on this already: CxxLibraryList
[09:07] <ogra> which means we have to do it bottom up...
[09:07] <dholbach> ... will be our first taget
[09:08] <dholbach> the attack plan is something like this:
[09:08] <dholbach> 1) freeze c++ applications from uploads
[09:08] <siretart> ajmitch_: these should be able to identify by looking at the reverse dependencies of libstdc++6
[09:08] <dholbach> 2) fix libraries
[09:08] <dholbach> 3) fix applications using c++
[09:08] <ogra> uploads of apps that use c++ will be rejected until the libs are all built
[09:08] <ajmitch_> siretart: sadly, that doesn't find them all
[09:08] <siretart> mostly ;)
[09:09] <ogra> ajmitch_, you dont have to care for the apps yet
[09:09] <dholbach> if you have a look at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList and https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxApplicationList you will see nice lists of them
[09:09] <chmj> that means the libs must be done quickly, I suppose
[09:09] <ogra> just have a look at every app you upload and drop the upload if its c++
[09:09] <dholbach> we will do a nice and clean job, but the sooner the better
[09:09] <ogra> chmj, right
[09:10] <ajmitch_> shouldn't take much more than a week ;)
[09:10] <dholbach> now: what we will have to do is: applying patches, if stuff doesnt build - gladly debian provided us with loads of patches for that
[09:10] <ogra> we agreed with doko to start on Tuesday with the transition
[09:10] <chmj> UTC ?
[09:10] <dholbach> and changing the library package name
[09:10] <dholbach> the binary package, not the source package
[09:11] <dholbach> as you can see on BreezyToolchainTransition we will add a "c2"
[09:11] <\sh> i see a lot of qt and kde stuff
[09:11] <ogra> chmj, we didnt agree on a time, heh
[09:11] <ogra> \sh, yep...
[09:11] <Riddell> \sh: that'll be the C++ :)
[09:11] <dholbach> \sh: this is where Riddell steps in
[09:11] <doko> chmj: we'll post the exact date
[09:12] <\sh> as i heard on kde rumors ;) are telling that gcc 4 is in the moment a "nono"
[09:12] <doko> and time ...
[09:12] <ajmitch_> hello seb
[09:12] <seb128> hi
[09:12] <\sh> Riddell: am i right?
[09:12] <minghua> dholbach: or remove c102 if it exists :-)
[09:12] <ogra> \sh, for 3.4 ?
[09:12] <seb128> meetings marathon? :)
[09:12] <dholbach> minghua: exactly
[09:12] <Riddell> \sh: I'm reliably told that we have a cvs version of gcc which inclues the fix for the KDE problems
[09:12] <\sh> ogra: 4.x is far away ;
[09:12] <dholbach> you can read the "naming conventions" on BreezyToolchainTransition
[09:13] <\sh> Riddell: sounds great
[09:13] <dholbach> we will start on CxxLibraryList and the implementation plan can be found on top
[09:13] <dholbach> 1) mark the package in the list with your name
[09:13] <ogra> if you find omething you dont understand, feel free to ask us, we will point you kindly to doko then ;)
[09:13] <doko> Riddell: the upstream changelogs are included in the gcc binaries as well, so you can search for the bug number
[09:13] <dholbach> 2) look for patches in either bugzilla.ubuntu.com (for main) or on UniverseCxxTransition for universe
[09:13] <doko> ogra sees a flying toaster ...
[09:14] <ogra> heh
[09:14] <ajmitch_> 4.0
[09:14] <dholbach> 3) For each library (for universe as well), create a bug report at http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/, the subject/title must start with [CXX transition]  <source name>
[09:14] <ogra> siretart, 4
[09:14] <siretart> ok
[09:14] <dholbach> and 4) attach the debdiff
[09:14] <ogra> dholbach, do we write that down anywhere =
[09:14] <ogra> ?
[09:15] <dholbach> ogra: what exactly?
[09:15] <ogra> your four points
[09:15] <ajmitch_> ogra: all on the CxxLibraryList  page
[09:15] <ogra> oh
[09:15] <dholbach> yeah
[09:15] <dholbach> we won't have to change the build-depends (generally)
[09:15] <ogra> tables are to fascinating to me....
[09:15] <dholbach> since dpkg-shlideps will work it out for us
[09:16] <dholbach> any questions?
[09:16] <\sh> hmmm...
[09:16] <ajmitch_> when will the compiler be switched?
[09:16] <\sh> missing packages?
[09:16] <\sh> should we put them directly on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CxxLibraryList
[09:16] <ogra> ajmitch_, it already is
[09:16] <\sh> ?
[09:17] <dholbach> ajmitch_: we will start on tuesday
[09:17] <ogra> \sh, sure... and note it in the comment
[09:17] <ajmitch_> ok
[09:17] <chmj> ajmitch_, its switched already
[09:17] <dholbach> everybody has to be sure to have build-essential of version 11 installed
[09:17] <siretart> are there any special actions planned for java apps?
[09:17] <minghua> dholbach: I have a question about how the CxxLibraryList is made
[09:17] <doko> ajmitch_: and all the details on the BreezyToolchainTransition page
[09:17] <minghua> dholbach: I am looking at my (Debian) package scim, and see that scim-gtk2-immodule is listed
[09:17] <dholbach> minghua: ask doko
[09:18] <ogra> doko ? do we bug you or jbailey for java ?
[09:18] <minghua> dholbach: okay
[09:18] <doko> heh, jbailey should be fine :)
[09:18] <ogra> ok
[09:18] <Nafallo> dholbach: version 11 is to be found where?
[09:18] <dholbach> \sh: what do you mean by missing packages?
[09:18] <chmj> ogra, carefull, he don't like java
[09:18] <ogra> Nafallo, in breezy ?
[09:18] <\sh> dholbach: like python-sip python-qt and stuff :)
[09:19] <dholbach> Nafallo, ogra: will be uploaded by then
[09:19] <ogra> chmj, _wo_ likes it ?
[09:19] <minghua> doko: scim-gtk2-immodule only contains gtk2 dynamic loaded module in /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.4.0/immodules, why is it on CxxLibraryList?
[09:19] <ogra> who even
[09:19] <Nafallo> dholbach: oki :-)
[09:19] <chmj> sun, microsystems :p
[09:19] <Nafallo> ogra: 10.1ubuntu1 atm :-)
[09:19] <ogra> heh
[09:19] <doko> Nafallo: wait, I'll upload test packages
[09:19] <dholbach> we also have #ubuntu-java
[09:19] <Nafallo> doko: oki :-)
[09:19] <tritium> dholbach, build-essential=11 installed locally?  Can we not build in a breezy pbuilder chroot on a hoary install?
[09:19] <dholbach> breezy pbuilder will be fine
[09:20] <tritium> ok
[09:20] <dholbach> if you should run into questions and they get answered somewhere... make sure you write it down on the wiki :-)
[09:20] <ajmitch_> sure
[09:20] <\sh> hmm.<mindnote>write howto work with two pbuilder enviroments</mindnote>
[09:20] <ajmitch_> what else would I do with my weekend? ;)
[09:20] <ogra> \sh, why two ?
[09:21] <\sh> ogra: hoary and breezy...I like comparisons :)
[09:21] <Nafallo> \sh: make that three and I'll be happy to :-).
[09:21] <dholbach> we'll have BIG FUN and will do the job admirably :-)
[09:21] <ogra> will we ?
[09:21] <Simira> Nafallo: did you stop hanging out on #d-w?
[09:21] <dholbach> of course!
[09:21] <\sh> Nafallo: three? for what? breezy unstable, ah ok ;)
[09:21] <ogra> YEAH !!
[09:22] <Nafallo> Simira: yea, I've dropped out of debian for the moment ;-).
[09:22] <ogra> lets have FUN !!
[09:22] <Nafallo> \sh: warty-security? :-)
[09:22] <dholbach> the attack plan is clear?
[09:22] <ajmitch_> sure
[09:22] <ajmitch_> ogra: bringing the beer? ;)
[09:22] <chmj> dholbach, seems to be clear enough
[09:22] <\sh> Nafallo: oh...hmmm...well if i can configure two...i think we can extend it to three easily
[09:22] <ogra> ajmitch_, VB ?
[09:22] <Nafallo> dang. I thought I would sleep this week ;-).
[09:22] <Nafallo> \sh: :-)
[09:23] <\sh> dholbach: ETA?
[09:23] <dholbach> Nafallo: we start next week :-)
[09:23] <ajmitch_> ogra: that'll be fine..
[09:23] <ajmitch_> jeff!
[09:23] <dholbach> it will all depend on us (and the guys doing it in main)
[09:23] <ogra> jbailey, to late
[09:23] <Nafallo> dholbach: oki :-)
[09:23] <ogra> jbailey, you already have the task :)
[09:23] <ajmitch_> dholbach: only a couple of days of work :)
[09:23] <\sh> Riddell: amu will help with the kde stuff?
[09:24] <jbailey> ogra: Joy.  What meeting is this? =)
[09:24] <Riddell> \sh: dunno, better ask him
[09:24] <\sh> ajmitch_: lucky one..u have a blade cluster somewhere? ,-) so we can use it for doing it all on one day ;)
[09:24] <dholbach> as i see it, we have to thank<EMAIL_ADDRESS>if we make it fast
[09:24] <dholbach> jbailey: c++ transition motu briefing
[09:24] <ajmitch_> \sh: heh, I wish :)
[09:24] <ogra> jbailey, toolchain
[09:24] <\sh> Riddell: ok..i'm on the kde site of the fun :)
[09:25] <ogra> jbailey, ... which includes java as well....
[09:25] <jbailey> Ah, lovely. =)
[09:25] <Nafallo> dholbach: sure. each person sends one mail right? ;-)
[09:25] <Riddell> \sh: woo
[09:25] <dholbach> Nafallo: :-)
[09:25] <ogra> jbailey, so youre our designated java guru now....
[09:25] <jbailey> Luvly.
[09:25] <\sh> Riddell: have to talk to you anyways :) later ;)
[09:25] <ogra> :)
[09:26] <\sh> ok starting time tuesday cero hundred hours
[09:27] <siretart> :)
[09:27] <dholbach> ok... if there are no more questions (thanks doko for your documentation), this will be the fastest meeting ever
[09:27] <ajmitch_> yay! :)
[09:27] <seb128> ;)
[09:27] <ajmitch_> it's the 4th or 5th meeting this week? :)
[09:27] <\sh> ay
[09:28] <jani> cannot the work begin now and only after g++4.0 is in things compiled?
[09:28] <\sh> one question more...
[09:28] <jani> people can start downloading now :)
[09:28] <dholbach> doko: we seem to want to start earlier
[09:28] <\sh> how accurate must the source compile? warnings ok?
[09:28] <ogra> jani, sure...
[09:28] <siretart> dholbach: I guess after tuesday, there will be tons of questions ;)
[09:28] <dholbach> siretart: sure :-)
[09:29] <dholbach> \sh: same rules as always apply :-)
[09:29] <\sh> dholbach: so...it has to work only ;)
[09:29] <doko> test packages at: deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/GCC-4.0/i386 ./
[09:29] <doko> dholbach: we have to freeze the archive first
[09:29] <ajmitch_> chmj: you're away from you ubuntu box?
[09:30] <jani> is ubuntu bugzilla controllable from mail?
[09:30] <chmj> ajmitch_, I'm on do$e XP :-(
[09:30] <ajmitch_> ouch :(
[09:30] <ogra> doko, but nothing stops people to pull down their favorites already ;)
[09:30] <dholbach> doko: test packages?
[09:30] <doko> no, but no upload yet ...
[09:30] <chmj> doko, gcc-4.0 test packages ?
[09:30] <doko> dholbach: to make 4.0 the default
[09:30] <Nafallo> ogra: my cronjobs are running ;-)
[09:31] <dholbach> alright
[09:31] <\sh> i should delete my 80gig hd on my rootserver...and prepare a breezy chroot ;)
[09:31] <Nafallo> ogra: hmm, don't take it as I volunteer to do all the work myself though :-P
[09:31] <sladen> doko: surely breezy is breakable
[09:31] <sladen> doko: eg. dont' have to freeze
[09:31] <ogra> Nafallo, oh, no ??
[09:32] <ogra> Nafallo, i thought so..
[09:32] <ogra> :)
[09:32] <\sh> ajmitch_: 2400baud? ;)
[09:32] <ogra> \sh, .nz
[09:32] <ajmitch_> \sh: almost
[09:32] <doko> sladen: we'll freeze all _applications_ depending on any libstdc++ dependent library
[09:32] <Nafallo> :-)
[09:32] <\sh> ajmitch_: oh sh*****
[09:33] <dholbach> alright... if nobody complains, we can close this meeting, ok?
[09:33] <ogra> yep
[09:33] <Nafallo> yep
[09:33] <\sh> aye
[09:33] <minghua> yes
[09:33] <\sh> #ubutntu-transition?
[09:33] <Nafallo> ajmitch_: *s*
[09:33] <siretart> \sh: good idea!
[09:33] <ajmitch_> \sh: not *another* channel!
[09:33] <dholbach> thanks everyone, i look forward to the UniverseCxxFixing! :-)
[09:34] <dholbach> \sh: #ubuntu-toolchain
[09:34] <\sh> dholbach: sorry..yeah :)
[09:34] <minghua> doko: Now I've read the CxxLibraryList page, so if I'm sure a binary package only contains loadable module, no name changes are necessary, correct?
[09:35] <doko> minghua: yes, please add a comment ("loadable module only") to the list, I'll remove it then
[09:35] <jani> ogra, is there a next meeting in 30 minutes?
[09:36] <ogra> jani, for me, yes
[09:36] <minghua> doko: got it, thanks
[09:36] <jani> ogra, ok  I though on #u-m
[09:37] <Nafallo> what was that deb URL doko had again? ;-)
 test packages at: deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/GCC-4.0/i386 ./
[09:38] <Nafallo> ahha, only i386. thanx anyway :-P.
[09:39] <doko> Nafallo: be patient ...
[09:39] <chmj> heh
[09:39] <Nafallo> doko: oki :-)
[09:44] <chmj> night all
[09:44] <dholbach> bye chmj, sleep tight
[09:45] <chmj> :-)
[09:49] <koke> brb
[10:08] <Amaranth> doh, i missed another one
[10:08] <crimsun> oh don't worry, plenty of meetings to go around
[10:10] <mdz> seems to be unused at the moment
[10:10] <seb128> right
[10:10] <kiko> okay
[10:10] <dholbach> ok
[10:10] <kiko> should we poke luis in?
[10:10] <ogra> mdz, yep, we just finished :)
[10:10] <kiko> ogra, how familiar are you with bugzilla?
[10:10] <kiko> and bug triage in general?
[10:10] <ogra> kiko, i use it regulary
[10:10] <kiko> neat
[10:11] <dholbach> me too
[10:11] <kiko> cool
[10:11] <jvw> (has this meeting an agenda?)
[10:11] <ogra> kiko, i'm capable to track bugs... and to fix thm i guess
[10:11] <kiko> essentially, we'd like to start a community QA process on our bugzilla
[10:11] <ogra> bugzilla ? or malone ?
[10:11] <kiko> there are a couple of problems we are facing
[10:11] <kiko> bugzilla for now.
[10:11] <mdz> jvw: <kiko> essentially, we'd like to start a community QA process on our bugzilla
[10:11] <ogra> oh
[10:11] <kiko> this is short-term stuff
[10:12] <ogra> ok
[10:12] <mdz> the idea is to involve a much larger group of people in helping out with bugs
[10:12] <ogra> as the MOTU
[10:13] <kiko> first, UNCONFIRMED reports are going upwards (since we introduced them a while back)
[10:13] <kiko> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/report.cgi?x_axis_field=bug_status&y_axis_field=product&z_axis_field=&query_format=report-table&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Ubuntu&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&resolution=DUPLICATE&resolution=---&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1
[10:13] <kiko> =&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
[10:13] <kiko> darn.
[10:13] <kiko> one sec.
[10:13] <kiko> anyway, as I was saying, we'd like to get more people involved in triaging bugs, with the goal of:
[10:14] <kiko>   - reducing the number of UNCONFIRMED (marking stuff as resolved, upstream, needinfo, etc)
[10:14] <kiko>   - identifying low-hanging fruit as good community contributions
[10:14] <dholbach> kiko: your link would be   http://tinyurl.com/da494   if you wanted us to have a look
[10:15] <kiko>   - weeding out the tough issues and bringing them to the lead developer's attentions when necessary
[10:15] <kiko> thanks
[10:15] <jvw> (it's password-protected :( )
[10:15] <mdz> it's clear from a report on resolution that a huge number of the bugs that we receive don't actually require any developer action
[10:15] <dholbach> jvw: you have to log in
[10:15] <ogra> kiko, so like a first, second and third level suppport...
[10:16] <ogra> staging...
[10:16] <kiko> ogra, well, to start off with, community first-level, us second-level. but yes.
[10:16] <mdz> of 7397 resolved bugs, only 3621 were resolved FIXED.  most of the rest ended up being INVALID, NOTABUG, NOTWARTY and WORKSFORME
[10:16] <dholbach> i like the  LOWHANGINGFRUIT  idea
[10:16] <dholbach> and UNIVERSE :-)
[10:16] <kiko> dholbach, I do too, just don't ask me to add a status for it :)
[10:16] <mdz> yes, and UNIVERSE
[10:16] <mdz> so if we can get the community involved in walking over the UNCONFIRMED bugs
[10:16] <kiko> mdz, dholbach: we can probably use keywords there.
[10:16] <seb128> 3944 bugs, how come than we have #10000 ?
[10:16] <mdz> and clearing away the chaff
[10:16] <mdz> then the development team can focus on real bugs
[10:16] <kiko> right.
[10:16] <mdz> which should move to NEW
[10:17] <kiko> mdz, you got mail, did you see that?
[10:17] <dholbach> i want to start a GNOME team with seb128 and have bug triaging in the manifest
[10:17] <mdz> kiko: no, no mail yet
[10:17] <kiko> mdz, ogra: so my proposal is that we start by doing weekly bugdays on #ubuntu and #ubuntu-devel
[10:17] <seb128> and we need a mailing list for the bugs
[10:17] <kiko> mdz, May 11 16:58:35 anthem sm-mta[26967] : j4BJwQxn026965<EMAIL_ADDRESS><EMAIL_ADDRESS>(5107/1004), delay=00:00:08, xdelay=00:00:08, mailer=relay, pri=120323, relay=frodo.hserus.net. [<IP_ADDRESS>] , dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (OK id=1DVxLl-000EMv-HR)
[10:17] <ogra> kiko, sounds great
[10:17] <dholbach> seb128: exactly, like ubuntu-gnome-bugs@
[10:18] <kiko> a bugday is a publicized event that invites community people to trawl through bugzilla
[10:18] <mdz> kiko: Subject: ?
[10:18] <ogra> like louis does them
[10:18] <kiko> ogra, dholbach: we can give away selected merchandise every week to the top resolver.
[10:18] <ogra> yay, thats great
[10:19] <dholbach> sounds awesome
[10:19] <luis_> probably top /new/ resolver
[10:19] <seb128> :(
[10:19] <mdz> luis_: you mean UNCONFIRMED, right?
[10:19] <luis_> you'll get some addictive types who will close hundreds every week :)
[10:19] <kiko> luis_, well, the criteria would need to be specified better. this is my proposal.
[10:19] <luis_> mdz: I mean, in terms of giving out goodies, you'd want to make sure it doesn't go to the same guy every week
[10:19] <ogra> seb128, find some straw MOTUs for that ;)
[10:19] <mdz> luis_: oh
[10:19] <seb128> luis_: don't look at me while saying that :)
[10:19] <luis_> sure, I'm just nitpicking, sorry, I'll go back to lurking- you guys seem to so far be saying things very similar to what I'd be saying :)
[10:20] <mdz> luis_: if someone wanst to consistently work hard on bugs, shouldn't we encourage that?
[10:20] <luis_> mdz: oh, you should
[10:20] <kiko> we should
[10:20] <dholbach> i think we shouldnt focus on the merchandise :-)
[10:20] <luis_> right
[10:20] <luis_> don't rathole, I can email you my more detailed rationale later
[10:20] <luis_> s/don't/we shouldn't/
[10:20] <Amaranth> giving rewards is the _worst_ thing you can do
[10:20] <ogra> dholbach, we should, its encouraging
[10:21] <dholbach> #ubuntu-love started as such a project, but is horribly unmaintained
[10:21] <mdz> oh wow, my bogofilter is all out of whack
[10:21] <ogra> fix this bug to get a t-shirt
[10:21] <dholbach> ogra: not in the meeting atm
[10:21] <Amaranth> you'll get lots of people to try a little or try once but if they don't win they won't do it again
[10:21] <dholbach> i like the idea though
[10:21] <seb128> we need a http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html like
[10:21] <\sh> well...after dealing with gentoos bug-wranglers, it sounds really great to encourage community work. but who will check the results?
[10:21] <Amaranth> and if they do win they'll want another reward to do it again
[10:21] <kiko> Amaranth, that's not my experience.
[10:22] <dholbach> seb128: looks great
[10:22] <ogra> \sh, if we have 1st 2nd and 3rd level, that would be the next higher level who has to check
[10:22] <seb128> dholbach: I like this stuff, and that's sane emulation :)
[10:22] <kiko> mdz, something like "no more mr. nice guy"
[10:23] <Amaranth> *cough*
[10:23] <dholbach> do we want to use UbuntuLove for all this?
[10:23] <\sh> ogra: so you mean, 1st level (the lowest community level) will resolve a bug (or he thinks he does), 2nd level check the patch or workaround, and 3rd level will approve?
[10:23] <kiko> ubuntuLove?
[10:23] <seb128> dholbach: I don't think so
[10:23] <dholbach> the idea behind it was similar to GnomeLove
[10:23] <ogra> \sh, nope, in this case 2nd should approve too
[10:24] <dholbach> mailing lists, irc channel and gnome-love-days to gather all the willing folks together
[10:24] <ogra> \sh, keep away as much as you can from 1st
[10:24] <seb128> dholbach: if we have people to handle both event, I would keep separete ones
[10:24] <dholbach> the problem is: we have no people
[10:24] <ogra> \sh, at least that was my directive at ish GmbH in the testbed, worked quite well
[10:25] <dholbach> #ubuntu-love is in lurking mode and there was only one day yet
[10:25] <kiko> ogra, dholbach: so plan of action would be: 0) accept the task of running these bugdays a) decide on weekly bugday b) write up the announcement c) decide where to post the announcement d) decide on criteria/if for prizes
[10:25] <kiko> perhaps also decide what sort of guidance we want to give people
[10:25] <kiko> basically
[10:25] <ogra> kiko, ok, no problem
[10:25] <kiko> we want newbies to look at unconfirmed
[10:25] <kiko> get a little bugbot IRC bot
[10:25] <\sh> ogra: well...u see right now, that @NOC ;) it is not working..2nd level has to deal with 1st level support, just because the tools are not ready :(
[10:25] <seb128> dunno if that's the same topic, be we need some mailing list for bug specific to teams (gnome-bugs, xfce-bugs, ...)
[10:26] <ogra> \sh, i talked about the depatment i led ;) not the NOC
[10:26] <kiko> seb128, it's not.
[10:26] <\sh> ogra: i'm talking about the real world ,-)
[10:26] <seb128> kiko: k
[10:26] <kiko> ogra, when do you want to do them?
[10:26] <ogra> \sh, its a thing of the rikght organization
[10:26] <\sh> ogra: lets find a solution for ubuntu and forget about ish ;)
[10:27] <dholbach> weekly sounds good to me
[10:27] <kiko> dholbach, ogra: on what day?
[10:27] <dholbach> although we have to have people around which will guide them
[10:27] <dholbach> s/although//
[10:27] <kiko> yeah.
[10:27] <ogra> kiko, hmm... a fixed date in the week... dunno, i'll check at #ubuntu-motu to make sure to have some 2nd level people around
[10:27] <\sh> saturday to sunday night ;) always good
[10:27] <kiko> not a weekday?
[10:27] <ogra> \sh, weekdays please
[10:28] <dholbach> we want to have full-timezone-coverage :-)
[10:28] <dholbach> fine with me
[10:28] <ogra> a bugday should be 24h ;)
[10:28] <kiko> full timezone coverage is kinda crazy for the organizers.
[10:28] <dholbach> ogra: sissy :-)
[10:28] <seb128> weekday? hum...
[10:28] <kiko> I don't think ogra and dholbach can manage the 24h
[10:28] <\sh> and this is another matter ;)
[10:28] <kiko> is there anyone in .au to cover for you guys?
[10:28] <seb128> not easy to get people doing bug triage during their working time
[10:29] <dholbach> kiko: MOTUs are in all the timezones :-)
[10:29] <dholbach> .nz
[10:29] <ogra> kiko, .nz
[10:29] <kiko> who would that be?
[10:29] <dholbach> ajmitch
[10:29] <ogra> ajmitch
[10:29] <kiko> does he know bugzilla?
[10:29] <ogra> i think so
[10:29] <kiko> okay
[10:29] <dholbach> ah... he went to bed :-)
[10:29] <ogra> yep
[10:29] <kiko> ogra, dholbach: can you ping motu people, decide on a day and get back to me before friday so we can book a meeting to resolve the remaining issues?
[10:30] <ogra> to many meetings today :)
[10:30] <dholbach> kiko: absolutely
[10:30] <kiko> this meeting would discuss specifics
[10:30] <ogra> kiko, sure
[10:30] <\sh> did u already established teams for the diff. projects?
[10:30] <kiko> \sh?
[10:30] <dholbach> \sh: not yet, it will be a long-term goal
[10:30] <dholbach> TEAMS! :-)
[10:30] <ogra> \sh, not more then we already have
[10:30] <dholbach> and those consist of 1-3 people each :-)
[10:31] <ogra> \sh, first we need ppl
[10:31] <\sh> well, i don't know if you're familiar with gentoo herds
[10:31] <ogra> \sh, GO RECRUITING MAN !!
[10:31] <\sh> ogra: let me explain please
[10:31] <dholbach> \sh: fire away
[10:31] <ogra> \sh, yay
[10:31] <ogra> go on
[10:31] <kiko> ogra, dholbach, mdz, seb128: any other thoughts?
[10:31] <kiko> otherwise we can move on and I'll wait for your feedback
[10:31] <\sh> ok gentoo is organized this way: bug is coming in...there is a group of "bug-wranglers" who will move the bugs to the special group (aka herd) lets say for gnome or kde
[10:31] <ogra> kiko, not yet, sounds fine so far
[10:32] <kiko> okay.
[10:32] <\sh> so...every project like kde, gnome, ubuntuserver etc. pp. are teams and have to work on those bugs
[10:32] <ogra> kiko, thats a thing with a internal evolution anyway, you cant spec out everything here
[10:32] <\sh> problem is, as it states out here, the recruitement
[10:33] <mdz> kiko: no, but my attention is divided
[10:33] <ogra> \sh, correct
[10:33] <seb128> \sh: the group is not an issue, every package has a QA contact
[10:33] <\sh> working ppl are missing and it's hard to cover this
[10:33] <ogra> \sh, so we currently have to care for everything, like we do anyway...
[10:33] <\sh> seb128: thats right, but most of the time it's individual
[10:34] <dholbach> kiko: i think you can move on
[10:34] <ogra> \sh, but we already have a team.... its just not divided yet...the more people we have the more it will spilt up...
[10:35] <seb128> \sh: that doesn't matter, you can set the QA to a mailing list
[10:35] <ogra> but facing reality, the team thing is a longterm shot
[10:35] <kiko> thanks
[10:35] <\sh> seb128: this we should do :)
[10:35] <ogra> kiko, thanks for the meeting :)
[10:35] <seb128> \sh: that was I was saying before and that's what is planned
[10:35] <kiko> thanks to you guys
[10:35] <kiko> ping me till friday
[10:35] <seb128> thank you kiko
[10:35] <dholbach> thanks kiko
[10:35] <dholbach> will do
[10:35] <kiko> enjoy
[10:35] <dholbach> :-)
[10:36] <\sh> well...and if you have the teams ready, and you have the people..the next problem will be the fluctuation of those people.
[10:36] <\sh> this was the result at gentoo :(
[10:36] <ogra> \sh, we'll handle it, dont worry
[10:37] <dholbach> the nice atmosphere will hopefully keep people
[10:37] <luis_> the fluctuation you handle by just recruiting regularly
[10:37] <luis_> and by counting on the super-volunteers
[10:37] <ogra> yeah
[10:37] <luis_> 90 of 100 who show will never return
[10:37] <zul> there is always fluctuation in open source projects
[10:37] <luis_> of the remaining ten, only 1 or 2 will return for more than a handful of times

[10:37] <luis_> doesn't matter
[10:37] <luis_> just find a new 100 :)
[10:37] <seb128> "just"
[10:37] <ogra> luis_, i think its just a matter of being loud enough :)
[10:37] <zul> or obsessive developer
[10:38] <luis_> seb128: I did it for years, it isn't that hard ;)
[10:38] <seb128> he he
[10:38] <luis_> (though, granted, it does need someone with patience/persistence... I've slacked in the past year or two :/
[10:38] <ogra> luis_, you dnot do it anymore ?
[10:38] <\sh> well...for ubuntu the situation is quite different
[10:38] <luis_> ogra: no, not really, I've just been too busy with my job and stuff
[10:39] <\sh> on one hand, you have a company behind you, who could hire ppl on a contract basis
[10:39] <luis_> I might restart them for gnome, dunno
[10:39] <ogra> luis_, oh, i thought that was covered in your job too
[10:39] <\sh> on the other hand u need the "outsiders", the community to do most of the stuff ;)
[10:39] <luis_> ogra: well, not towards the end, no :/
[10:39] <luis_> ogra: I was 'purely' a manager towards the end of my novell career
[10:39] <ogra> luis_, ah, yes, the end...
[10:39] <seb128> dholbach: http://tinyurl.com/9297d
[10:39] <\sh> luis_: before or after suse?
[10:40] <luis_> \sh: hrm, started before suse, really
[10:40] <luis_> with the XD2 push, I guess... I mean, i still did mostly QA for xd2, but no community QA, since it wasn't a released product
[10:40] <ogra> luis_, i know the feeling very good... ask \sh, we were colleagues.. i needed to go to not take a sling...
[10:40] <luis_> hehe
[10:40] <dholbach> seb128: wow
[10:40] <\sh> xd? ximian?
[10:40] <luis_> yes
[10:41] <luis_> seb128: oh, nice
[10:41] <\sh> ogra: well...I'll have one more year, then I#m leaving this company ;)
[10:41] <luis_> \sh: where are you now?
[10:41] <\sh> ogra: after all, better then to work for lycos ;)
[10:42] <ogra> \sh, if they didnt cannibalize themselves then :)
[10:42] <\sh> luis_: I'm working at ISH GmbH, a german cable tv company...
[10:42] <luis_> ah.
[10:42] <dholbach> to which big US company does it belong again?
[10:42] <\sh> ogra: peter was really strange towards me...
[10:42] <\sh> dholbach: it was callahan
[10:42] <\sh> (sp?)
[10:43] <ogra> dholbach, it was callahan...
[10:43] <\sh> dholbach: now it's a bank consortium, and from summer on it will be IESY ;)
[10:43] <\sh> (lets hope)
[10:43] <dholbach> oh nice
[10:44] <\sh> ogra: right now, peter comes down to ISP/DTV people and ask them for engineering stuff ;)
[10:44] <ogra> heh
[10:45] <\sh> ogra: so i said today to him: why don't u ask klaus? he said: well, it's good to know, that we have people who can do this job, too ;)
[10:45] <ogra> heh
[10:45] <ogra> \sh, they will offer you my job then ;)
[10:45] <\sh> ogra: no :)
[10:45] <ogra> sure
[10:46] <\sh> ogra: forget it...I'm waiting what will happen...i think klaus will leave (if not now, then later)
[10:46] <ogra> he will
[10:47] <\sh> i don't really know what's going on upstairs, but all of the engineers (alfred, ingo etc.) are looking for something else...if it's in another department of ish or new companies
[10:47] <\sh> anyways OT ;)
[10:48] <ogra> i think i started a lot of stuff when i left...
[10:48] <ogra> yep true
[10:48] <ogra> s/started/unleashed
[10:52] <\sh> hehe..amaranth is right ;)


[16:19] <EdwinGrubbs> abentley, bac, jml, rockstar, mars: are any of you around to review a one-line buildbot testfix? https://lpbuildbot.canonical.com/builders/lp/builds/1113/steps/shell_7/logs/summary
[16:19] <rockstar> EdwinGrubbs, fire away
[16:19] <bac> EdwinGrubbs: lost by a hair
[16:19] <bac> better reviewer coverage than most weekdays...
[16:20] <abentley> rockstar, enjoy :-P
[16:20] <rockstar> Man, look at all yous guys that ain't out enjoyin' your weekends!  :)
[16:22] <EdwinGrubbs> rockstar: oops, I didn't realize I pasted the wrong url. https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~edwin-grubbs/launchpad/need_from_future_import_with_statement/+merge/31458
[16:23] <rockstar> EdwinGrubbs, r=me, but please file a bug and send out an email about this.  abentley broke the build, but it's not really his fault...
[16:24] <rockstar> I can't believe we're running buildbot in a different version of python than we're running on production.
[16:24] <EdwinGrubbs> rockstar: ok, thanks
[16:24] <abentley> rockstar, oh geez, really?  I thought we were all switched over.
[16:24] <rockstar> abentley, not according to the test failure.  EdwinGrubbs had to do "from future import with_statement"
[16:25] <abentley> rockstar, I couldn't understand what was going on in the test failure.
[16:53] <mars> rockstar, everything in the build system *except* developer boxes is still on Python 2.5
[16:54] <rockstar> mars, expand "developer boxes" because technically, my machine is a developer box.
[16:54] <mars> And it is really really easy to use awesome 2.6 features and forget that "you can't land that"
[16:54] <rockstar> Does that mean all our boxes in the datacenter?
[16:54] <mars> rockstar, nope, just your local machine I believe
[16:55] <mars> In the data center we have one buildbot slave running 2.6/lucid
[16:55] <mars> the others are all 2.5/hardy
[16:55] <mars> devpad is 2.5/hardy
[16:55] <rockstar> mars, but production is running 2.6, right?
[16:56] <mars> rockstar, hmm, I don't know, but I would think not.  The next "big thing" is to get staging ported to Lucid/2.6.  IIRC then the app servers were next in line.
[16:57] <rockstar> mars, okay, so the buildbots prevent us from deploying code that can't be run.  That makes a bit more sense.
[16:57] <rockstar> Still kinda hairy, but makes sense.
[16:57] <mars> hehe
[16:58] <mars> yeah, I thought about putting a Py2.5 pyflakes check in the linter, but the changeover is happening
[16:59] <mars> a pyflakes-2.5 check would have caught this, but I think it is only the second time this has happened
[16:59] <mars> and people aren't using things like namedtuple yet
[17:00] <mars> the 2.5 feature set appears to be very heavily ingrained in our minds


 On a new install the version reported is: 4.2.5-0.1build1 (re @RikMills: If anyone use qbittorent, then please check the version in hirsute is ok)
 Installs and launches fine. However, on minimize to tray, the tooltip shows html-styling(?) info as in pic. :
 I checked with another minimize to tray application hexchat, it shows application name just fine. If there is a minimize-to-tray Qt application I can check as well.
[04:54] <qydw> using qbittorrent <IP_ADDRESS> from PPA, though the package is for 20.10, it can still run perfectly on 21.04.
 in xubuntu, it used to show blank because xfce couldn't render the html (re @saivinob: )
 you should file a bug report https://github.com/qbittorrent/qBittorrent/issues
 Noted. Before that do you know any qt min-to-tray app so I will check if all qt app are like that or only qbittorent, coz hexchat tooltip is OK.
 seems it was already reported https://github.com/qbittorrent/qBittorrent/issues/13469
 and was supposedly fixed
 Ah, OK. 😊 (re @philipz: seems it was already reported https://github.com/qbittorrent/qBittorrent/issues/13469)
 Not in kubuntu unless it is not the version @RikMills is referring to. (re @philipz: and was supposedly fixed)
 the fix went in Sep 2020, so i'm still thinking it wasn't fixed properly if 21.04 is running the latest build.
[06:08] <guiverc> I missed the qbittorrent question, but I can download a magnet link from lubuntu.me & it opens in qbittorrent 4.2.5 and downloaded until I stopped it.. apt-cache policy doesn't show a source, so it's likely left over from groovy? (or prior release) on my box (lubuntu hirsute heavily modified; originally artful install but won't be from ppa)
 the fix removed html completely from the tooltip https://github.com/qbittorrent/qBittorrent/commit/89277a2f52b2bcade3798f85f262dc4e9724667c
 that is how i see it on the 4.3.4 :
 guess its because qbittorrent is still on 4.2.5 in the groovy and hirsute repos
 seems strange why qbittorrent wouldn't have been upgraded in 6 months, when 4.3.0 came out in october
 may be because of licensing issue as @RikMills stated above
 oh okay. well likely the patch should be added to 4.2.5 to fix the issues.
 thanks. I'll try that later
 Timezone in map and text do not match. This is when internet is already available. On the installed system the timezone is correct (as in the map). Shouldn't the text section show what is in the map? :
 I think that is a symptom of: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1916331
 Ah, I did not try to select country in the text field to see if timezone gets highlighted. Will check. But as I said, on the installed system timezone is correct which is as per map.
[06:45] <lotuspsychje> RikMills: i think i noticed something similar on -desktop too, had to manualy pick brussels, instead of automatic Tz recognize, internet was working
 I suspect that the timezone is being automatically recognised, but the bit of code that updates the gui with that is broken
[06:50] <lotuspsychje> ah
 https://irc-attachments.kde.org/tw91cuWe/file_41777.jpg
[06:53] <lotuspsychje> typing brussels manualy worked for me on -desktop
 Secondly, use of ubuntu font is not visually consistent. On Ubuntu and Ubuntu MATE it is ubuntu font all the way. On the other hand, Xubuntu managed to keep it consistent by making whole installer use 'Noto Sans'. It has been like this on Kubuntu always I guess. I'm not saying we cannot use more than one font but it has not be designed right. 'Noto Sans' text is small, 'Ubuntu' text is big and the progress bar is again '
 👆above two are just my input as a normal user. I know both are not critical esp at this time in release cycle, but something you may consider for later from UX perspective.
 i agree with @saivinob that showing the text has no benefit and the progress bar is sufficient. If the text is wanted, then it should appear on its own line above the progress bar.
 To be honest, as ubiquity is due to die in the not too distant future anyway, at this point I think only critical bugs are going to get attention
 I must find out if the new installer will be theme-able for flavours
 otoh, I really like the fast moving messages - usually a 'details' option is poorly implemented and I need to manually scroll down to see what's happening
 that maybe useful for a tech individual, but useless for the average user
 they will be focused on the pretty slides 😍
 Or watching cats on youtube while waiting for the install to finish (re @philipz: they will be focused on the pretty slides 😍)
 Don't know about others but me don't touch anything on desktop for fear of interfering with install process. So, yes, I stare at slides, look at progressbar that it is indeed moving. I would like if it shows how much time remaining.
[08:43] <lotuspsychje> time remaining depends on the machines specs saivinob, not easy to estimate for ubuntu i assume
 I see. Makes sense not to add additional complexity then.
 Can you or someone report that bug on launchpad? (re @saivinob: On a new install the version reported is: 4.2.5-0.1build1)
 OK.

 with the patch
 Is it when you have started some download? If you just start program, no downloads and close it what does it show ?

 if you start the installer without reaching the desktop, you'd be limited to only staring at the slides. (re @saivinob: Don't know about others but me don't touch anything on desktop for fear of interfering with install process. So, yes, I stare at slides, look at progressbar that it is indeed moving. I would like if it shows how much time remaining.)
 😃 yes...
 On launchpad when I try, it says bugs are reported on github.com and there was already an issue for it as mentioned by @philipz . It's closed. (re @RikMills: Can you or someone report that bug on launchpad?)
 @philipz, can you please take a loot at bug #1916711. 'Software' is not doing 'Update's.
 On gnome, if we click on download, it shows progress and when it shows restart and update it actually restarts and applies the updates (as checked on fedora). Here when we click on 'Download', it changes to 'restart & update' immediately and then does nothing if clicked. Even if I manually reboot, there is no update installed possibly because it did not download. :
 @saivinob gnome software has been broken for me in 20.04 since the day i installed it and why i avoid it. the updates tab always shows there are no updates and software updater always shows me that there are updates. :
 Odd. I will report on launchpad later (re @saivinob: On launchpad when I try, it says bugs are reported on github.com and there was already an issue for it as mentioned by @philipz . It's closed.)
 True and software updater does its job well. But then 'Software' is part of default install. It is also placed under 'Favorites' so it gets exposure. It shouldn't be this broken. May be 'Synaptic' be default? Bit overwhelming for new user may be, but solid none the less. (re @philipz: )
 'Software' for software installation and removal, 'Synaptic' for things you can't install with 'Software' and 'Software Updater' for updates.
 👍
 are there any other flavors that are using gnome software, as it would be good to know if its a xubuntu only issue, and if not, then more attention would need to placed on it.
 i know ubuntu proper uses snap store, UM uses software boutique, and kubuntu uses discover. not sure about lubuntu and ubuntu budgie.
 Hmm..now that you have asked, in UM for softwares that are not covered in Software Boutique, we asked to install additional software. Which are synaptic and Gnome software. I'll test and see how it goes if I choose to install gnome software.
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qbittorrent/+bug/1923301
[11:32] <lotuspsychje> tnx RikMills
[11:32] <lotuspsychje> !info qbittorrent
 Thanks @RikMills. Marked as affects me.
 Before I think Ubuntu used to disable packagekit updates, but now it looks like it's in sync again with Debian as the snap-store is being used. So these might need to be reported as upstream issues 🤔 (re @philipz: are there any other flavors that are using gnome software, as it would be good to know if its a xubuntu only issue, and if not, then more attention would need to placed on it.)
 And uploaded: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qbittorrent/4.2.5-0.1ubuntu1 (re @saivinob: Thanks @RikMills. Marked as affects me.)
 Thanks all for spotting that bug!
 I marked it as well
 Fixed version should be available in release pocket sometime later today
 @rs2009 when I try to download md5 file for 21.04 from fosstorrents site, it says you found a banana...😬
 OK from darkpenguin site.
 Ubuntu Budgie uses the repo version of gnome-software (re @philipz: are there any other flavors that are using gnome software, as it would be good to know if its a xubuntu only issue, and if not, then more attention would need to placed on it.)
 @fossfreedom does budgie suffer from this same issue? (re @saivinob: )
 @fossfreedom does ubuntu budgie suffer from this same issue? (edited) (re @saivinob: )
 We don't show the updates button
 you can set org.gnome.software allow-updates to toggle the updates pane in gnome software IIRC
 Sure. That's a default for us. Let me check what happens when I gsettings it back on.
 I installed gnome-software on UM. Currently waiting for download to finish. Will update how it goes.
 thing is the fragmentation of package managers makes it tricky, as flatpak automatic/gui updates and fwupd are handled by gnome-software normally (snap updates can also show there). And update-manager can handle both apt/snap updates (but not fwupd, flatpak). However on other distros all the updates are in one place in gnome software, but then upstream was talking about removing some things from gnome-software updates ðŸ¤
 ok - under UB - I saw the restart button after installing.  Clicking on it restarted UB - then I saw updates installing via plymouth on a reboot ... it rebooted again and there are no more updates.
 ... very Windows like
 Yup the only "safe" way to do apt/rpm updates is to reboot, most distros opt for this other than Ubuntu
 Hmm...we are on the same boat @philipz. On UM, it is only slightly better in that it actually downloads the updates but 'Restart & Update' does not do what it says. Manually rebooting at this stage also does not install updates.
 I ran gnome-software from terminal and when I clicked on 'Restart & Update', I see following error. Calling org.gnome.SessionManager.Reboot failed: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files
 👆that's on xubuntu. On UM, if I run gnome-software it starts the application and immediately returns to prompt. No terminal information like it shows in xubuntu.
 Ah. Makes sense why it works on Budgie ... that dbus entry is something we use. Probably xubuntu will need to code something to provide that
 On UbuntuUnity, when I click on 'Restart & Update' it shows unity shutdown prompt, on selecting restart, it just restarts normally. No updates applied. If I check software updater, it says updates have already been downloaded and prompts to 'Install Now'.
 So, it's not working on 3 flavors.
 qbittorrent fix should be in release pocket when the mirrors sync
 thanks to all who tested. having testers flag up things like this make developers/uploaders life so more simple. it is so much more hassle to fix these things post release!
 can I just say that I am also very impressed that the efforts to investigated and seek out the upstream bug and fix. this often gets left to maintainers/uploaders who have to much on their plate already, so the pointer to the fix was lovely
 can I just say that I am also very impressed with the efforts to investigated and seek out the upstream bug and fix. this often gets left to maintainers/uploaders who have to much on their plate already, so the pointer to the fix was lovely (edited)
 can I just say that I am also very impressed with the efforts to investigate and seek out the upstream bug and fix. this often gets left to maintainers/uploaders who have to much on their plate already, so the pointer to the fix was lovely (edited)
 Any tips on pages to read to figure out how to debug a boot hang on Wayland in Kubuntu?  It doesn't work for me but I don't know if I am dealing with a new bug, an old bug or an  issue that has a workaround or ... ?  I assume Wayland should be working (at least booting) in all situations now.
 I resolved a boot hang issue with NVidia + Wayland by setting nvidia-drm.modeset=1 in /etc/default/grub.  The part I forgot to do was "sudo update-grub" which was causing the hang.
 @DarinMiller was that on 21.04 Kubuntu?  I looked in that file and there is no nvidia-drm.modeset there.  Did you add that?
 Yes, you have to add it.
[22:23] <luna> i wanna die
 add it to this line: GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash"
 @DarinMiller, tried it twice, didn't work.  Before it would hang when displaying "Kubuntu" after I logged in.  Now it hangs on a completely blank screen and I never even see "Kubuntu" displayed on the center of the screen.  Graphics card is an old Nvidia GT 530.
 Ensure to enable everything as outlined by David: https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/running-kwin-wayland-on-nvidia/
 Will do ... thanks.  Is Wayland supposed to work or is the idea that folks are supposed to do all this to get it to work?  Just asking because I don't want to spend time chasing something that isn't expected to work at this time anyway.
 I found quite a few papercuts using Wayland like middle click paste not working on some apps, wine games would not run, and misc. other issue. Screen scaling was still soft/blurry with some app.  And occasional odds and ends.
 Okay, as part of testing I wanted to contribute useful information and not cause churn bringing up things that weren't expect to work (or that were already known to have issues.)
 Several project will be landing soon such as wine for wayland, new Nvidia drivers (supposedly the 470 series) plus Xoprg 1.21 and continued polishing by KDE devs should improve the experience.  But, I suspect it will be awhile before we are near parity with plain Xorg and NVidia.
 I guess I jumped the gun.  That's okay, I can stick with Xorg.  Thanks for all your help!
 This site is a little out of date as I think several of these issues have been solved.  But everything is still progressing: https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers
 On the above link, the text at the bottom has yesterdays date on it... so maybe it is accurate.


[16:02] <cyberalex4life> hello
[16:03] <cyberalex4life> could u please help me with some nvidia problems?
[16:04] <cyberalex4life> after some recent updates, quite a few, if I install any nvidia drivers with bumblebee
[16:04] <cyberalex4life> gdm fails to start
[16:04] <cyberalex4life> if I remove bumblebee, and configure it for nouveau the problem dissapears
[16:06] <cyberalex4life> bumblebee works ither with nvidia and nouveau in gnome shell, but after installing nvidia gdm fails to start
[16:13] <daschel> I recently assembled this PC(about 2 months ago) and installed ubuntu with it.  It's not unusable, but it seems very unstable.  there's nothing major going wrong, but a bunch of little things adding up.  For example I just did an update about 2 mins ago, and when it finished it closed everything I was working on. there's a bunch of display errors.  the DE crashed on startup a couple times a week.  When being wok
[16:13] <daschel> en up from sleep, I have to restart GDM, but if I want sound too, I have to do a full reboot. Is this release known to be so unstable, or have I just had bad luck?
[16:14] <daschel> Once it's running, it runs fine.  But if it goes to sleep or if I need to reboot, it's a crap shoot
[16:14] <zerwas> I have the same problem with having to restart GDM after suspend to RAM
[16:14] <zerwas> Does the sound issue also happen when you use another DE?
[16:15] <zerwas> Most often this is a driver issue
[16:16] <daschel> I haven't tried another DE, but i am using the proprietary graphics driver because at the moment the only speakers I have are built into my monitor, and I couldn't get the sound to work without the prop drivers
[16:17] <zerwas> I see.
[16:17] <zerwas> Did you install 14.04?
[16:18] <daschel> yea
[16:20] <daschel> the only things I've really installed are chrome, several tools for a development environment, and some gnome extensions.  Do you know off-hand if any gnome extensions are causing problems with the DE?
[16:23] <daschel> zerwas, just found this: https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/bugs#TOC-Hibernate-and-suspend-don-t-always-work-well:-they-make-some-computers-malfunction-or-even-enter-a-coma
[16:26] <zerwas> Yes, Suspend/Hibernation + Linux is still no good combination
[16:26] <zerwas> Also have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelSuspend
[16:27] <zerwas> I bet it has to do with the graphics driver in our case
[16:27] <daschel> do you have dual displays by any chance?
[16:28] <zerwas> Nope
[16:29] <zerwas> But suspend used to work fine for me in Unity
[16:29] <zerwas> It started to misbehave since I'm using GNOME
[20:59] <shmup> figure i'll ask in here instead of just #ubuntu. sitting at preparing to install ubuntu gnome screen for _a while_. tried a few random things i've read. ubiquity --debug. not checking the two optional check boxes. rebooting.
[20:59] <shmup> i do have an internet connection. i'm talking to you right now through ubuntu live ;p


[02:44] <tatehirsa> suporte ao compiz
[03:33] <studio-user548> unable to launch steam by valve software on 16.04
[03:33] <studio-user548> last working on 14.??
[03:34] <studio-user548> can anyone sugest a fix?
[03:34] <studio-user548> am I in the right place for discission?
[03:36] <studio-user548> I'm refering to Ubuntu-Studio 16.04
[03:36] <studio-user548> anyway, k laterz
[10:53] <Guest66195> graag upgrade naar 16.04
[20:59] <studio-user549> hello


[16:50] <tomwardill> cjwatson, wgrant: I'm running into a problem trying to get an OCI build (in ocirecipebuildbehaviour.extraBuildArgs) to have the Universe component enabled. The OCIRecipeBuild doesn't have distro_arch_series, so none of the tooling in archivedependencies appears to fit. Any suggestions for workarounds?
[16:50] <tomwardill> I need Universe as that's where the Docker package lives
[16:52] <tomwardill> if I'm understanding this right, we'd need that infrastructure even if it was in a PPA though
[19:16] <wgrant> tomwardill: I haven't thought it through in full detail, but this sounds somewhat analogous to TTBs, where the series is implicit (or configured at the system level). Except in this case you select the DAS based on OCIRB.processor rather than nominatedarchindep
[23:53] <lifeless> yay bug 7
[23:53] <mup> Bug #7: Need help for novice translators <lp-translations> <verification-needed-eoan> <Launchpad itself:Fix Released by danilo> <Launchpad Documentation:Fix Released by matthew.revell> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/7>


[16:28] <tjaalton> RAOF: yo, ping me when up. mesa FTBFS on wily/xenial against current Mir, even after fixing the pkgconfig goof http://pastebin.com/G7pLiWRT
[21:49] <RAOF> tjaalton: Yo!
[21:49] <RAOF> Also, urgh.
[22:05] <tjaalton> RAOF: hey, so if you know how to fix, either leave a note or push something :)
[22:05] <RAOF> Yeah, I'll fix it.
[22:05] <tjaalton> ok cool
[22:07]  * tjaalton back in 7h


[00:42] <rick_h_> evening
[01:06] <cmaloney> How's the day so far?
[01:07] <jrwren> keep it rocking
[01:19] <cscheib> are there any worthwhile linux and/or devopsy groups around town other than MUG?  compiling a list of stuff for my Puppet User Group
[01:21] <cscheib> jrwren: ^^
[01:21] <cscheib> or jcastro ^^
[01:23] <cmaloney> There's MDLUG
[01:23] <jrwren> he said worthwhile :p
[01:23] <cmaloney> Not sure how DevOps they are but it's another Linux / UNIX group
[01:23] <cmaloney> jrwren: behave.
[01:24] <cscheib> well, if he didn't say it, I would have
[01:25] <cscheib> :P
[01:51] <greg-g> Another night where beinng serenaded by Mark Lanegan is needed.
[01:57] <cmaloney> http://www.metalinjection.net/video/zach-hills-drum-stick-pov-cam-might-make-you-puke
[01:57] <cmaloney> How about this?
[02:02] <greg-g> nope
[02:05] <cmaloney> nope nope, or just nope?
[02:07] <greg-g> don't need a seizure tonight :)
[02:09] <cmaloney> Actually if you're a drummer you won't have too much trouble seeing what's going on.
[02:10] <greg-g> yeah, wasn't too bad in that respect, but man, hurt my eyes
[02:19] <greg-g> and then a switch to a couple QOTSA songs, next in the queue are some Desert Sessions albums
[02:20] <cscheib> LIke Clockwork is an awesome album
[02:22] <greg-g> I actually don't have that one yet :/
[02:22] <cscheib> it's on Spotify, if you have that.
[02:23] <greg-g> nope
[02:24] <greg-g> I do like listening to Dave Grohl play the drums
[10:17] <jcastro> cscheib, not sure, but I might check this out: http://www.meetup.com/AWS-Michigan/
[10:18] <jcastro> I've never been though
[12:07] <cmaloney> Happy "Don't Take Anything Seriously" day.
[12:09] <cmaloney> https://www.gentoo.org/
[12:09] <cmaloney> OK, this is pretty cool.
[12:14] <_stink_> hah, nice
[14:18] <cscheib> jcastro: Chef?  ouch.
[14:18] <jcastro> ok since everyone keeps asking, no, we're not nuking your puppet install
[14:19] <cscheib> April 1's an interesting release date, heh
[14:21] <jrwren> supporting chef and puppet is no different than supporting mysql and postgresql
[14:22] <jrwren> or supporting sendmail, exim and postfix
[14:22] <jrwren> they are all really good, so we want to support them all
[14:51] <cmaloney> jrwren: Ansible, postfix, postgresql
[14:51] <cmaloney> fixed that for you.
[14:59] <jrwren> wha?
[15:00] <jrwren> cmaloney: so opinionated :)
[15:05] <greg-g> cmaloney: http://www.reddit.com/r/stonerrock/comments/31107t/new_tool_music_leak_they_just_released_a_sneak/
[15:07] <cmaloney> greg-g: Yeah, I'm holding out until the album is in my hot little hands. :)
[15:07] <greg-g> I loved the "such polyrhythms" comment
[15:07] <cmaloney> greg-g: yeah, could see that one coming.
[15:08] <cmaloney> Also: Subscribed to the Stoner Rock reddit
[15:09]  * greg-g nods
[15:09] <greg-g> good stuff
[15:10] <cmaloney> Might as well. Subscribed to the Epic Metal / Prog Metal / Prog Rock Music reddits
[15:10] <cmaloney> http://www.reddit.com/r/progmetal <- Still love this mascot.
[15:10] <greg-g> nice
[15:10] <cmaloney> http://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic <- And this one.
[15:13] <greg-g> heh, yeah, looks like the same person made all three of those (including epicmetal)
[15:21] <cmaloney> Yeah
[15:21] <cmaloney> The Epic Metal one is OK. The other two I want as tattoos.
[15:21] <greg-g> hah
[15:26] <greg-g> we just hired another DD at WMF :)
[15:26] <greg-g> we have a thing for them
[15:27] <cmaloney> Need a clarification, please.
[15:27] <greg-g> Debian Developer
[15:27] <cmaloney> Thank you.
[15:27] <cmaloney> Mind did not go there directly.
[15:28] <greg-g> sorry
[15:28] <cmaloney> No worries. :)
[15:28] <cmaloney> Figured where my mind went was uncharacteristic for a hiring decision. :)
[15:29] <greg-g> on another topic: yay! the blinkenlights UI option for offlineimap works again (not sure when it was fixed)
[15:40] <cscheib> WMF?
[15:40] <greg-g> Wikimedia Foundation
[15:42] <cscheib> ah
http://www.meetup.com/Detroit-Craftsman-Guild/events/221391424/
[15:46] <jrwren> derekv2: what do they build?
[15:46] <derekv2> softwares
[16:17] <derekv2> you include an example app.  the example app uses angular, so I can't follow anything you did.  You used grunt, and you used it in some sort of nonstandard way, so I have no idea how to build you demo.
[16:18] <derekv2> i don't think you understand the purpose of example apps
[16:18] <derekv2> s/you/this guy
[18:45] <cscheib> jcastro: ha, you got Puppet's CEO to comment on your chef announcement
[18:45] <jcastro> hah yeah
[18:45] <jcastro> I doubt I'm on the xmas card list
[18:45] <cscheib> haha