[13:06] <ZachGibbens> Yeah, looks like all the changes are low level (but since I only did an upgrade, I might be missing some things I had already purged like the stock background package)


[00:39] <MrCurious> anyone know how to force a rea-install of libgles1-sgx-omap4
[00:53] <MrCurious> scratch that. trick was to be smart enough to find the already installed libs
[01:04] <rsalveti> MrCurious: apt-get install --reinstall
[01:08] <rsalveti> Amaranth: should I update the compiz package with your latest changes?
[01:17] <rsalveti> Amaranth: let me know if makes things better for nux
[01:17] <rsalveti> Amaranth: and if I should still keep the nux hack to just remove the disable gl_blend
[01:31] <MrCurious> brilliant!
[02:10] <MrCurious> libfreenect's glview working on pandaboard under ubuntu 11.x and getting 0.5FPS
[02:11] <MrCurious> while gumstix users report 30FPS
[02:18] <MrCurious> yep. performance BLOWS on pandaboard under ubuntu.
[02:58] <MrCurious> is there a lookup to port applications so they use OMAP4 optimized libs instead of non optimazed libs fo ropengl stuff?
[08:32] <kunguz> I have ubuntu arm headless version installed on my beagleboard C3, I want to use my usb wifi dongle to connect it to the internet.
[08:32] <kunguz> RTL8188CUS 802.11n WLAN is the adapter
[08:32] <kunguz> Apperantly i need to install a driver to make it work
[08:32] <kunguz> but there is no make command in headless version
[08:32] <kunguz> any ideas?
[09:03] <Spider-Pork> morning
[10:32] <bamLUCE> Hi, can you suggest me a cheap (~ 50$) handheld with a lcd display which supports linux and has a network card?
[11:02] <kunguz> I am looking for a document as an explanation to how to connect to internet with ubuntu-arm headless? Does anyone know?
[11:13] <Spider-Pork> generally after install the connection is auto-magically up
[11:14] <Spider-Pork> Have you problems?
[11:24] <diwic> ogra_, hi! Haitao wants a catchup on audio on the ac100
[11:25] <diwic> ogra_, sometime while we're in Dublin, you're in Dublin as well right? I think I remember seeing you here.
[11:31] <ogra_> diwic, yeah, and i'm sitting in front of 6 ac100s atm
[11:32] <ogra_> diwic, we're in the arm room, if you want to can have a device for this week
[11:57] <ppisati> ogra_: do you want an ac100 more? :)
[12:25] <lilstevie> ogra_: did you get audio functioning on the AC100
[12:46] <ogra_> ppisati, sure, come over
[12:53] <ppisati> ogra_:
[12:53] <ppisati> ogra_: after lunch i'll be all over you
[12:53] <ogra_> awesome !
[12:57] <Spider-Pork> ogra_: hi, i've installed Natty netbook version. Done apt-get update && apt-get upgrade. Then sudo alsaucm set _verb HiFi sudo alsaucm set _verb Record sudo rm /var/lib/alsa/asound.state sudo reboot I still have no input :(
[13:01] <Spider-Pork|2> sorry for my pase, my connection gone down and i'm not sure about arrived on channel
[13:01] <Spider-Pork|2> [13:57:15] <Spider-Pork> ogra_: hi, i've installed Natty netbook version. Done apt-get update && apt-get upgrade. Then sudo alsaucm set _verb HiFi sudo alsaucm set _verb Record sudo rm /var/lib/alsa/asound.state sudo reboot I still have no input :( [13:58:41] <Spider-Pork> of course as line-in, no mic
[13:01] <Spider-Pork|2> *paste
[13:38] <ocs_> Hi, can you suggest me a cheap (~ 50$) handheld with a lcd display which supports linux and has a network card?
[13:45] <lilstevie> that is quite an ask
[14:53] <lilstevie> persia: chase agreed that the kernel driver should work
[15:03] <blu_> hi all
[15:05] <lilstevie> hi blu_
[15:06] <blu_> i have some trouble on my ubuntu 11.04 on pandaboard
[15:06] <blu_> my wifi ping have a serious packet loss
[15:07] <blu_> which is when i ping my router , i get a maximum 11 consecutive response then it will stuck for a while and resume back with another 11 consecutive response ...etc.
[15:08] <blu_> can anyone tell me what probably is the problem ?
[15:08] <lilstevie> how far from the router
[15:08] <blu_> less than 1 m with good signal strength
[15:09] <lilstevie> hm
[15:09] <lilstevie> natty is really good with wireless on my device
[15:09] <blu_> have you try to ping ?
[15:09] <lilstevie> yeah
[15:09] <blu_> ping without packet loss
[15:10] <lilstevie> better results than I had with maverick
[15:10] <blu_> is there any packet loss ?
[15:10] <lilstevie> no
[15:10] <blu_> r u using 11.04 ?
[15:10] <lilstevie> this isn't panda though
[15:10] <lilstevie> yes
[15:10] <blu_> and kernel 2.6.38 too ?
[15:10] <lilstevie> no
[15:10] <blu_> which kernel u using ?
[15:10] <lilstevie> different device different kern
[15:10] <lilstevie> <IP_ADDRESS>
[15:11] <blu_> you r not using pandaboard ?
[15:11] <lilstevie> have you tried running maverick again, just to see if there is a difference still
[15:11] <lilstevie> no
[15:11] <blu_> what device u r using ?
[15:11] <lilstevie> galaxy tab
[15:12] <blu_> may be different driver
[15:12] <blu_> or different wireless hardware
[15:12] <blu_> pandaboard uses wl1271 (if i not mistaken)
[15:12] <lilstevie> I do have different hardware
[15:12] <lilstevie> bcm4329 here
[15:13] <blu_> is there any encryption on the comm ?
[15:13] <blu_> ie. wep , wpa , wpa2
[15:13] <lilstevie> wpa2
[15:13] <blu_> nad u r using the wpasupplicant ?
[15:13] <lilstevie> yep
[15:14] <blu_> then either driver problem or kernel problem (i guess)
[15:15] <lilstevie> or the binary firmware blob
[15:16] <blu_> is fimware located on our SD storage or on the chip in the hardware ?
[15:16] <lilstevie> should be in /lib/firmware/ somewhere
[15:17] <blu_> mean that is on my  SD right ?
[15:18] <lilstevie> yeah
[15:18] <blu_> is galaxy using cortex A8  ?
[15:18] <lilstevie> yeah
[15:19] <lilstevie> samsung hummingbird SOC
[15:19] <blu_> what is the diferrent between fireware and driver ?
[15:19] <blu_> (in ubuntu)
[15:20] <blu_> (and sry for asking beginner question becoz i m a beginner)
[15:21] <NewbieToKernel> hi room
[15:22] <NewbieToKernel> i want to build ubuntu for arm from sources
[15:22] <NewbieToKernel> can anyone point me to the rite place?
[15:22] <lilstevie> firmware is code that runs on the hardware, for instance with the wireless card it runs on the wireless chip to make it work
[15:22] <lilstevie> and the driver is the interaction between the firmware and the OS
[15:22] <NewbieToKernel> i looked up rootstock ... but that doesn't seem to be what i want
[15:23] <blu_> lilstevie: could the code run on the hardware store in SD?
[15:24] <lilstevie> blu_: some hardware stores its firmware on its own storage, but most use a loaded in firmware that is located in /lib/firmware
[15:24] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: that is quite a difficult task
[15:25] <NewbieToKernel> I can build android from its sources , can a similar thing be done for Ubuntu?
[15:25] <blu_> #pandaboard
[15:26] <NewbieToKernel> what exactly does rootstock do ?
[15:26] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: android is different,
[15:26] <lilstevie> rootstock grabs prebuilt binaries and builds a system from those packages
[15:27] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: is there a reason you want to build from source, cause it is generally not something you want to do
[15:27] <blu_> lilstevie: is patching driver , install driver, and patching firmware are all required to rebuild kernel ?
[15:27] <lilstevie> blu_: sorry I don't understand
[15:28] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: I want to add openGL / hardware codec support etc etc for ubuntu on an arm target
[15:28] <lilstevie> blu_: the kernel is a bit more than just drivers
[15:28] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: then building an entire system is not needed for that
[15:29] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: but then how will i get access to the HAL on ubuntu? say for ALSA ?
[15:29] <blu_> lilstevie: i was looking at https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/546381/ and https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/546401/ to try patch my driver
[15:30] <blu_> but i was told that i need to rebuild/recompile my kernel for that
[15:30] <lilstevie>  blu_ download the sources for panda
[15:30] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: well for that you would only need to build ALSA if you were modifying that
[15:31] <blu_> lilstevie: okay , then what should i do ?
[15:31] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: and then how do i manage to put ALSA back to the binaries and use rootstock ?
[15:32] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: is there an online guide to doing this?
[15:33] <lilstevie> although, I don't think you should be modifying ALSA but rather the driver to make it compliant with the spec
[15:33] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: basically i dont know where to get started
[15:33] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: ALSA was just an example,
[15:34] <lilstevie> doesn't matter what, still should be trying for compliance with the spec rather than working around it
[15:34] <lilstevie> but if you look there will be source for everything available
[15:34] <lilstevie> grab what you want to modify if you can't modify the driver,
[15:34] <lilstevie> build it
[15:35] <lilstevie> and install it into the proper filesystem
[15:35] <lilstevie> proper place in the filesystem*
[15:35] <lilstevie> blu_: apply the patch and compile
[15:37] <blu_> lilstevie: is that mean i have to compile the whole ubuntu ?
[15:38] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: so where do i get started? say i want to add support for hardware codecs ... so where do i modify? for this i will need the location of the ubuntu sources ,I can then modify the sources, and then how do i push those changes back to my arm binary ?
[15:39] <NewbieToKernel> i mean i can modify gstreamer
[15:39] <NewbieToKernel> but then how to pus the changes back to the binary is what i want to know
[15:44] <NewbieToKernel> stevie... did I explain myself clearly?
[15:46] <NewbieToKernel> basically i want to know how to *grab what i want to modify and put it in put it into the appropriate file system*
[15:50] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: with all hardware support that should be done in the kernel driver rather than in userspace
[15:50] <lilstevie> blu_: no just the kernel
[15:51] <blu_> lilstevie: that is not not for beginner :(
[15:51] <blu_> *not
[15:52] <lilstevie> no
[15:54] <Spider-Pork> ogra_: sorry do you have only 2 minutes about my pandaboard and input sound?
[15:54] <blu_> lilstevie: i see that compiling kernel is not an easy stuff
[15:55] <Spider-Pork> maybe this link will be interesting http://www.omappedia.org/wiki/Get_started_with_ubuntu_on_omap4
[15:58] <lilstevie> blu_: once you are set up for it it isnt that difficult
[16:00] <NewbieToKernel> @lilstevie: you are right, kernel changes would be for adding support for new hardware that is currently unsupported ... but what if I do have hardware support , but I need to change the HAL of ubuntu to use that hardware support?
[16:00] <lilstevie> why would you need to change the HAL
[16:01] <lilstevie> HAL has been depreciated
[16:03] <NewbieToKernel> basically I only have access to the hardware via HAL . I donot have access to the actual drivers  , but this HAL is not compatible with Ubuntu HAL. By HAL i mean a generalized hardware abstraction layer , not something sprcific to ubuntu that has been deprecated
[16:03] <blu_> lilstevie: okay , thank you ... i will try and hopefully that can solve my prob
[16:04] <NewbieToKernel> so i want to write a mapping layer between these 2 HAL's
[16:04] <NewbieToKernel> i want the ubuntu HAL to use call my HAL rather than invoking the kernel drivers directly
[16:08] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: what device is this
[16:14] <NewbieToKernel> I basically want to improve ubuntu port on Nexus 1
[16:14] <NewbieToKernel> or nexus S
[16:16] <NewbieToKernel> so I want android and ubuntu to co-exist, and ubuntu can use the Andoid HAL
[16:18] <ogra_> there is no HAL in ubuntu anymore
[16:18] <ogra_> Spider-Pork, sorry, but i'm out of ideas, it works on all pandas here if you use an mp3 player as input
[16:19] <Spider-Pork> ogra_: just to understand if i missed some steps
[16:19] <ogra_> no, the steps look fine
[16:19] <Spider-Pork> downloaded prebuild natty netbook image
[16:19] <Spider-Pork> ah ok
[16:19] <ogra_> yeah, with that image and these steps sound works everywhere here
[16:19] <lilstevie> NewbieToKernel: you mean you want to chroot?
[16:20] <Spider-Pork> ogra_: done apt-get update && upgrade too
[16:21] <Spider-Pork> :(
[16:22] <Spider-Pork> ogra_: just to see if my board is broke, can you post an image of a your SD card with input working?
[16:22] <Spider-Pork> *broken
[16:23] <Spider-Pork> a dd copy for example
[16:23] <ogra_> i am at the ubuntu sprint, there are several in teh room here, sound just works with teh above commands as described on the bug
[16:24] <NewbieToKernel> @ogra: There must be some hardware abstraction layer in Ubuntu? @lilstevie not necessarily chroot just want ubuntu to use the hardware abstraction layer that android uses
[16:24] <Spider-Pork> thank you ogra_
[16:25] <Spider-Pork> so the last chance is the input broken
[16:25] <blu_> ogra_: can you help me on ubuntu 11.04 wifi on pandaboard ?
[16:26] <lilstevie> then where is the incompatibility, enable a kernel option, you will have no problems
[16:26] <lilstevie> only  something like the battery wont read properly
[16:27] <ogra_> NewbieToKernel, there is none, hal was dropped in favour of udev, udisks and upower
[16:27] <ogra_> who all work directly through kernel uevents
[16:29] <lilstevie> for the hummingbird SOC anyway
[16:29] <lilstevie> sound is a pain, but that is how the audio codec is implemented
[16:44] <persia> lilstevie: So, iof the kern driver works, which bit falls down?
[16:46] <lilstevie> persia: looks to be evdev
[16:49] <persia> The X input driver?
[16:50] <persia> Does xinput --list-props not show the right set?
[17:01] <lilstevie> it does, there is something weird no idea what
[17:09] <kunguz> how do I connect my beagleboard to wireless internet? Ubuntu headless found the hardware and configured it during the install, now I am trying to find a way to connect to any ssid
[17:11] <lilstevie> persia: I think I am going to have to file a bug on bugzilla
[17:16] <kunguz> Can someone please help me to figure out how to connect to internet with my beagleboard that runs ubuntu-arm headless version?
[17:19] <kunguz> can anyone please at least suggest something? I am really stuck with where to start
[17:20] <shirgall> kunguz: ifconfig is where I would start
[17:21] <kunguz> shirgall: the funny thing there is no iwlist or iwconfig or wpa_supplicant in the system :(
[17:22] <shirgall> kunguz: sh, so naked ifconfig doesn't even show a wlan0 to manipulate?
[17:22] <kunguz> shirgall: it does show an item called as lo
[17:22] <shirgall> kunguz: that's loopback
[17:23] <shirgall> kunguz: no eth0 either?
[17:23] <kunguz> shirgall: it prompts that it found the wireless card during the installation but it could not connect to any wireless network that I gave so I skip the step
[17:23] <kunguz> shirgall: sorry, nothing at all...
[17:23] <kunguz> shirgall: with lsusb I can see the card as U.S. Robotics USR5423
[17:23] <shirgall> kunguz: ok, the next place I'd loko is the contents of the file /etc/network/interfaces
[17:24] <kunguz> shirgall: it only contains loopback network interface :(
[17:24] <shirgall> kunguz: but, admittedly, if things were working automatically there'd be next to nothign in there
[17:25] <shirgall> kunguz: can you "ifup wlan0"?
[17:25] <kunguz> shirgall: let me see
[17:25] <kunguz> shirgall: Ignoring unknow interface wlan0=wlan0 :(
[17:25] <shirgall> rats
[17:25] <shirgall> try ifup -a
[17:26] <kunguz> shirgall: do you have any suggestion as a distro to use with my beagleboard?
[17:26] <kunguz> shirgall: it returns nothing, went down to the newline
[17:26] <shirgall> kunguz: I am testing the Ubuntu Oneiric alpha, but I'm not trying it headless
[17:27] <shirgall> kunguz: and I'm using a pandaboard, not a beagleboard, but they are supposed to be pretty similar
[17:27] <kunguz> shirgall: I want something light as a desktop, I want to work with lxde that's way I choose headless. After connecting the board to the internet, I will install lxde as a desktop
[17:27] <kunguz> but failed with connecting it to the internet
[17:29] <kunguz> shirgall: should I install it from the top?
[17:29] <shirgall> kunguz: yeah, sorry, I don't have any other tricks handy at the moment, and I'm going into a meeting
[17:29] <kunguz> shirgall: thanks for your time, you are the best.
[17:29] <shirgall> kunguz: I did install it fresh, but that's something I can do because I have a spare sdcard. :)
[17:29] <ogra_> kunguz, is that oneiric or natty ?
[17:29] <shirgall> kunguz: you're welcome, I'll check in again later
[17:29] <kunguz> ogra_: natty
[17:29] <ogra_> hmm, should just work
[17:29] <ogra_> oneiric has issues with USB currently
[17:30] <ogra_> so you wouldnt see any usb devices on beagle there
[17:30] <ogra_> natty should just work though
[17:30] <kunguz> ogra_: so if I connect the usb adapter, it should be automatically seen under ifconfig, right?
[17:31] <kunguz> ogra_: or do I need anything to configure it?
[17:31] <ogra_> at least you should see it in dmesg
[17:31] <ogra_> on headless ?
[17:31] <ogra_> sure
[17:31] <kunguz> ogra_: yes
[17:31] <ogra_> headless is a developer image, you have to do everything manually
[17:32] <kunguz> ogra_: in dmesg I can see a line ieee80211 phy1: Selected rate congrol algorithm 'minstre_ht'
[17:32] <ogra_> i mean if you plug it in
[17:32] <kunguz> ogra_: it does seem as recognised but there is nothing under ifconfig
[17:32] <lilstevie> when is ubuntu going to start transitioning from xorg to wayland
[17:32] <ogra_> lilstevie, once its ready
[17:32] <lilstevie> ogra_: heh
[17:32] <ogra_> surely not before next LTS by default
[17:32] <kunguz> ogra_: so what should I do to make it visible under ifconfig?
[17:32] <lilstevie> as an option?
[17:33] <ogra_> kunguz, well, it should just show up ... if you see the device appear in dmesg right after yu plugged it in
[17:33] <kunguz> ogra_: it is seen there, I mean under dmesg, but unfortunately there is nothing under ifconfig :(
[17:34] <ogra_> cat /proc/net/dev
[17:34] <ogra_> does that show anything beyond lo ?
[17:34] <kunguz> ogra_: it does show wlan0
[17:34] <kunguz> as a second line
[17:35] <ogra_> what kind of chipset is in that card ?
[17:35] <ogra_> might be that you miss firmware or some such
[17:35] <kunguz> ogra_: it is U.S. Robotics USR5423 802.11bg device
[17:35] <kunguz> ogra_: connected via USB
[17:36] <kunguz> ogra_: isn't it wierd that there is no iwlist and wpasupplicant installed in the system?
[17:43] <kunguz> ogra_: I think I found the reason
[17:44] <kunguz> ogra_: /etc/network/interfaces has to be configured in a right manner, that's why I couldn't see wlan0 under ifconfig. Now I am able to see it
[17:44] <kunguz> ogra_: I will try to connect to some open SSID without password
[17:49] <kunguz> does anyone have a sample /etc/network/interfaces file to connect to a no password ESID
[17:57] <kunguz> this is like a nightmare, does anyone know how to configure wlan0 to connect to some open ESSID?
[17:58] <kunguz> sample would help a lot
[18:02] <kunguz> auto wlan0
[18:02] <kunguz> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
[18:02] <kunguz> these are the two lines that I used
[18:02] <NewbieToKernel> sorry @lilstevie and @ogra_ was away for a while... so if i want to add support for say "camera" or "GPS" or say "accelerometer" to ubuntu on arm then first i'd have to write a driver on the kernel and then expose it to user space. This is one way to do it. but what if i have a modified kernel with all these drivers in place , but the only way to access these in user space is through a
[18:02] <NewbieToKernel> proprietary hardware abstraction interface? I want to write a mapping layer from ubuntu to this proprietary hardware interface
[18:02] <kunguz> when I call sudo /etc/init.d/networking restart , it hangs...
[18:04] <NewbieToKernel> so for that i think the only way is to rebuild ubuntu from souces after incorporating my changes ... do you think it can be done in any other way?
[18:06] <ogra_> better write a proper driver then :)
[18:06] <ogra_> "rebuild ubuntu from source" ??
[18:06] <ogra_> what does that mean ?
[18:07] <NewbieToKernel> what i mean is build ubuntu for arm target
[18:07] <ogra_> that has already happened
[18:07] <ogra_> what do you want to rebuild ?
[18:08] <NewbieToKernel> but what what if i want to change it
[18:08] <NewbieToKernel> to incorporate hardware changes
[18:08] <ogra_> then you have to write a kernel driver
[18:09] <NewbieToKernel> basically i dont want to touch the existing drivers
[18:09] <NewbieToKernel> kernel drivers are already there for android
[18:09] <NewbieToKernel> i want them to work with with ubuntu as well
[18:11] <Gelmi> does anybody know if the card resize problem during Ubuntu 11.04 instalation (following I/O errors) has been fixed yet (Panda Board Rev. A2)?
[18:12] <kunguz> is there any network manager that I can use in ubuntu-arm headless?
[18:13] <NewbieToKernel> i saw some videos of ubuntu on nexus 1.... ubuntu seemed to run with a lot of lag.... so i'm assuming stuff like codecs and open gl must still be in software... i want to optimize it to interact with hardware
[18:15] <kunguz> guys, please I need help; I couldn't connect my beagleboard to internet
[18:15] <kunguz> I am really stuck
[18:15] <kunguz> at least some suggestion would do fine
[18:19] <kunguz> ogra_: may I ask for your help?
[18:24] <kunguz> guys please :(
[18:24] <kunguz> Please help me
[18:31] <kunguz> that's the spirit of open source
[18:48] <sveinse> In a debian world, how should changes to /etc files be handled? I mean, I am putting together a complete machine, and to suit some kernel/HW needs, some changes needs to be made into /etc/pulse/default.pa. However I cannot create a .deb file with those changes as files are already registered in the pulseaudio package. Does this imply that I must rebuild a special version of pulseaudio to my...
[18:48] <sveinse> ...system to accommodate these changes?
[18:52] <lag> kunguz: You are asking for help from someone who's working day finished 2hrs ago
[18:53] <kunguz> lag: thank you for the reply.
[18:54] <lag> sveinse: I thought the whole idea of a separate profile config file was that you wouldn't have to re-build
[18:56] <sveinse> lag: "profile config"? Without having checked, I am pretty certain the /etc/pulse/* files are marked as config files in its deb package, so changes are allowed. But not two packages can own the same config file
[19:04] <lag> sveinse: diwic is your man, he'll be back on tomorrow morning
[19:05] <ogra_> lag, why hanvent i seen you around yet ?
[19:05] <lag> sveinse: In the meantime perhaps you can find something of interest here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PulseAudio
[19:06] <lag> ogra_: Yet?
[19:06] <lag> ogra_: You mean in Dublin?
[19:06] <ogra_> in dublin
[19:06] <ogra_> oh
[19:06] <ogra_> heh
[19:06]  * ogra_ forgot
[19:06] <lag> 'cos I'm not coming ;)
[19:06] <ogra_> #yeah
[19:06] <ogra_> well, at least i'll come to your sprint
[19:06] <lag> Linaro Platform Sprint is in ~1 month
[19:06] <ogra_> yep
[19:06] <lag> ogra_: You are? Great!
[19:06] <ogra_> i'll be there
[19:07] <lag> I'll look forward to it
[19:07] <ogra_> :)
[19:07] <lag> I would have liked to come to Dublin, but it is a very busy time for me
[19:07] <ogra_> snowball ?
[19:07] <lag> New project just started
[19:07] <lag> Yeah, Android
[19:08] <lag> Why aren't you in the bar?
[19:09] <ogra_> i just finished up some stuff ... on my way ;)
[19:09] <ogra_> ... and out :)
[19:10] <lag> ogra_: ;)
[19:10] <NewbieToKernel> hi ogra_
[19:11] <NewbieToKernel> i guess you were away
[19:11] <NewbieToKernel>  i saw some videos of ubuntu on nexus 1.... ubuntu seemed to run with a lot of lag.... so i'm assuming stuff like codecs and open gl must still be in software... i want to optimize it to interact with hardware
[19:11] <sveinse> lag, my problem is not specifically related to pulseaudio, but it's _one_ example. But I got your message
[19:12] <sveinse> I can install post installation modification scripts to do my changes within /etc, but it feels so... hackish.
[19:13] <lag> sveinse: There are lots of useful wiki pages on the Ubuntu website and a great deal of information on the web about all this stuff. I'd say if you can't find your answer by the end of play tonight that people might be ready, willing and able to help you out tomorrow. Most people who usually help out here are on Sprint in Dublin (and most likely in the bar at the moment). :)
[19:14] <sveinse> heh.. Let them enjoy their time. Thanks
[19:14] <lag> :)
[19:14] <lag> If you can't find anyone to help you, ping me tomorrow and I'll be more than happy to point you in the direction of someone who can
[21:26] <MrCurious> persia: if i wanted to follow a bug relating to usb speed on pandaboard under ubuntu, do you know where i would look to follow the discussion?
[22:10] <MrCurious> does anyone know if ubunto 10 on pandaboard has the usb speed issue that 11 has?
[22:20] <kunguz> can anyone explain me how to connect to wireless network with ubuntu-arm headless image?
[22:21] <sveinse> persia: Are you in Dublin as well?
[22:22] <sveinse> If not: a short Q: Would you say running qemu-debootstrap is better/safer than running rootstock? (And I am aware of the extra bits rootstock is doing to the image)


[01:43] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man: A change in UWN makeup. "add the newspaper-icon41.jpg" sunstitute now "header.png" .
[01:52] <Wild_Man> Bashing-om, I thought this was taken care of with me updating my my local git for UWN
[02:00] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man: You have the new image ( take a look now  at a newsletter) . but in making up the issue one has to direct which files to upload to the WIKI for the "image" and licence.
[02:02] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/IssueTemplate#preview .
[02:08] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man: guiverc : If yall too accept "header.png" - will so then edit our editingpolicies page to reflect the change.
[02:16] <guiverc> Bashing-om, I'll go along with .. UWN is how I think of it, and UWN does stand out on that header..
[02:25] <Bashing-om> Change is good !
[02:25]  * guiverc disagrees most strongly (I don't like change)
[02:30] <Wild_Man> Bashing-om, will it still also list the issue there somewhere new the image?
[02:30] <Wild_Man> Was it hand drawn?
[02:33] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man: All we have done is change that newspaper icon to a banner at the top of the letter.
[02:43] <Wild_Man> Bashing-om, I personally think the old one looks much better and people will recognize the newspaper when many will not UWN imo, but if everyone else is happy with it I am okay with it to
[02:52] <guiverc> could the old logo be used at the bottom somewhere maybe? (new header/logo @ top for effect, old for those who [don't like change]) -- the old logo does make me think of UWN, or would that create more work, create more clutter or loose effect
[02:53] <Bashing-om> Wild_Man: Will be interesting if we get any response to the change from our readers. In any event now will be easy enough to revert to the newspaper icon.
[02:55] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Adding to the bottom is triaial - but updating all the help pages is the pain.
[02:56] <guiverc> help pages?  I was thinking only of skeleton and thus what goes to wiki  (and only doing something that doesn't add more work!)
[02:58] <Bashing-om> guiverc: These images have to be "uploaded" for each issue, and as such will need the new step addedd to the guides.
[02:59] <guiverc> sounds like more work, forget it then (may not have looked good anyway, but I don't want to create extra work, or hassle)
[02:59] <Bashing-om> guiverc: (I have edited the guide to reflect the new "header.png" now.)
[03:01] <krytarik> Well, apart from "uhuh, something changed!", I don't see particular value in having both of them on the page now - personally, while indeed having grown familiar with the old image, always found it looks rather dated and also due to the shape a bit weird in the various contexts we are showing it.  And if it turns out that the majority prefers the old image still, then we should rather revert ...
[03:01] <krytarik> ... the flip completely.
[03:04] <krytarik> Of course, everybody is always free to come up with suggestions of improval, this is the one knome suggested and I found it fitting and an improvement enough so that I figured we could go with it for now.
[03:06] <Bashing-om> I like it as a Banner :) Wild_Man, right below is "Welcome to the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter," :)
[03:06] <krytarik> Hehe, I just wrote "improval".. >_>
[03:06] <Wild_Man> I do not think we will get much input form the community about it, maybe some people that use to help with UWN but that is probably about it if that, I am okay with it like I said I am happy to go along
[03:07] <Bashing-om> krytarik: Your command of the English language always amazes me :P
[03:07] <krytarik> Well, in fact the full name is part of the header too.
[06:01] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::Security:: Episode 61 @ https://ubuntusecuritypodcast.org/episode-61/
[12:59] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Jonathan Carter: Random bits from FOSDEM 2020 @ https://jonathancarter.org/2020/02/07/random-bits-from-fosdem-2020/
[13:32] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: Devs Push for Unicode 13 Support in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/?p=162814 (by Joey Sneddon)
[19:59] -BottyMcBotFace:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Ubuntu Blog: The State of Robotics – January 2020 @ https://ubuntu.com/blog/the-state-of-robotics-january-2020


[01:37] <MtDewBob> I spent days trying to figure out how to connect to irc using Windows and could only figure out how to do it if I paid.  In 10 minutes I got here using Ubuntu, and for free.  Am I in the right place to find help with using Ubuntu? ( No questions at this time.)
[01:40] <MtDewBob> Okay. I guess not.
[19:29] <tonyyarusso> aww, didn't stick around
[19:30] <tonyyarusso> If anyone sees him again, tell him a) there are free builds of XChat for Windows too, and b) that #ubuntu is the most active place for support


[06:40] <oSoMoN> good morning desktoppers
[06:41] <ricotz> hello oSoMoN
[06:41] <oSoMoN> hey ricotz
[06:49] <duflu> Hi oSoMoN and ricotz
[06:49] <oSoMoN> hey duflu
[07:02] <didrocks> good morning
[07:02] <oSoMoN> salut didrocks
[07:03] <didrocks> salut oSoMoN
[07:04] <duflu> Hi didrocks
[07:10] <didrocks> hey duflu
[07:17] <ricotz> hey duflu & didrocks
[07:27] <didrocks> hey ricotz
[10:27] <diddledani> intelligence test and psychometrics done (I fluffed a couple of the intelligence questions in trying to not take too long over each question - not many just a couple)
[12:56] <eoli3n> Hi
[12:56] <eoli3n> i'm trying to port my preseed file from focal to jammy, the only thing i miss is how to answer the question "normal/minimal" install
[12:56] <eoli3n> i found some "tasksel" lines when searching, but nothing works here
[12:56] <eoli3n> that kind : https://github.com/nuada/ubuntu-preseed/blob/master/minimal.template#L62-L68
[12:57] <eoli3n> tried to grep -ri "minimal" "ubuntu-minimal" after answering graphically in /var/log, but i found nothing
[12:57] <eoli3n> it still asks graphically for that answer
[13:09] <seb128> eoli3n, the option was already there in focal, our automated tests use https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-test-case-dev/ubuntu-test-cases/desktop/view/head:/preseeds/default.cfg if that helps
[13:11] <seb128> eoli3n, https://askubuntu.com/questions/1027564/unattended-install-of-ubuntu-18-04-minimal-desktop could be of use?
[13:12] <eoli3n> thanks seb128
[13:12] <eoli3n> i just found the ubiquity line in another thread and tried it, without success
[13:12] <eoli3n> (with tasksel commented)
[13:12] <seb128> it shouldn't block on that option, it doesn't in our CI job, unsure why it does for you
[13:13] <eoli3n> as said it asks graphically
[13:14] <eoli3n> the default.cfg you linked doesn't use the ubiquity line
[13:14] <eoli3n> nor the tasksel one
[13:14] <seb128> right, I'm not that familiar with preseed, what just throwing pointers from things I know in case it helps
[13:14] <seb128> what->was
[13:16] <eoli3n> who is working on the preseed part ?
[13:17] <eoli3n> the second link helps a bit, but solution pointed in doesn't work
[13:17] <seb128> I don't think anyone actually works on that, it's basically legacy code without maintainer
[13:18] <seb128> do you use ubiquity --automatic ?
[13:19] <eoli3n> hey, just found something
[13:19] <seb128> or automatic-ubiquity to start the iso?
[13:19] <eoli3n> maybe your first link helps too
[13:20] <eoli3n> "minimal" is checked, so maybe that's not the blocking answer
[13:20] <eoli3n> and i don't use "use_nonfree" and "install_oem" keys
[13:20] <eoli3n> lets try with
[13:20] <seb128> right you do need those
[13:20] <eoli3n> seb128 i boot the extracted iso as nfsroot with some kernel parameters which points to my preseed file
[13:21] <eoli3n> ok solved, you killed it ;)
[13:21] <eoli3n> thanks a lot
[13:22] <ogra> such a killer 🙂
[13:22] <seb128> eoli3n, yw!
[17:31] <schopin> ricotz: fyi on the same PPA you'll find rustc 1.59 for bionic and above, but there seems to be an issue with s390x builds :/
[18:00] <ricotz> schopin, thank you, I followed the progress
[19:13] <ricotz> kenvandine, hi, could you take a look those snap builds https://launchpad.net/~build.snapcraft.io/+snap/bb1f4c8614df21a75936a3c9bb6d2a8d/+build/1730279 , https://launchpad.net/~build.snapcraft.io/+snap/e6d42287080609bfdec032f8c9b9e104/+build/1742020 and https://launchpad.net/~build.snapcraft.io/+snap/a53fb1e33659abd8fee4d96452631940/+build/1739692
[19:17] <ricotz> schopin, those s390x failures might be caused by the infrastructure problems


[14:40] <hannie> hi thorwil I see your name on the mailing list, but not the authors list. You are not an author?
[14:41] <thorwil> hi hannie. no, not an author
[14:41] <hannie> nor an editor?
[14:41] <thorwil> hannie: yes, not an editor either
[14:42] <hannie> ok, just wanted to know
[18:34] <c7p> hey all
[18:52] <tomswartz07> hi all
[18:52] <c7p> hello
[18:53] <c7p> i think we didn't estimated the meeting time good enough
[18:53] <c7p> :P
[18:54] <tomswartz07> there were a few that couldnt make it, i saw. haha
[18:54] <tomswartz07> its okay. any guess on how many we have?
[18:54] <c7p> just before some mins the champions league final started
[18:54] <c7p> hm idk
[18:55] <c7p> who's here for the meeting ?
[18:55] <stillnotcool> o/
[18:55] <tomswartz07> o/
[18:55] <herat> hi I am here.
[18:55] <c7p> godbyk: ping !
[18:55] <c7p> hello Tony
[18:56] <thorwil> o/, though all i have to say is that i intend to deliver an update of the titlepage. and maybe also of the project logo
[18:56] <TonyP> Hello!
[18:56] <c7p> thorwil:  good news !
[18:56] <godbyk> Hey, c7p.
[18:56] <c7p> hallo
[19:03] <tomswartz07> we ready to roll on?
[19:03] <godbyk> c7p: Are we expecting many more people at this meeting or is most everyone here?
[19:04] <c7p> almost everyone is here from what i see on doodle
[19:04] <godbyk> Okay. Shall we get started then?
[19:05] <c7p> i think yes
[19:05] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[19:05] <meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 19 19:05:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[19:05] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[19:05] <godbyk> #topic Roll call
[19:05] <godbyk> Thanks for coming everyone.
[19:05] <godbyk> If you're here for the meeting, please say 'hello' for our roll call.
[19:05] <tomswartz07> Hello
[19:06] <c7p> hello
[19:06] <stillnotcool> hello
[19:06] <herat> hello
[19:06] <TonyP> hello
[19:06] <thorwil> hello
[19:06] <godbyk> Thanks!  If anyone comes in late, meetingology should catch them.
[19:06] <godbyk> #topic Author updates and status reports
[19:07] <godbyk> The deadline for the first draft is May 31.
[19:07] <c7p> here you can see the status every single section http://bit.ly/I0SAXe
[19:07] <godbyk> All of the new content should be written and the screenshots should be in place by then.
[19:07] <godbyk> To the authors: Have you encountered any problems or do you have any questions so far?
[19:07] <stillnotcool> "Learning More" should be all set
[19:08] <godbyk> Does anyone think they won't be able to make the May 31 deadline?
[19:08] <stillnotcool> Obviously, this is not a mission-critical chapter :)
[19:08] <stillnotcool> But I do enjoy maintaining it
[19:08] <tomswartz07> None in my sections so far. Just need to do some finishing touches and screencaps
[19:08] <herat> None in my section.
[19:09] <godbyk> That's quite comforting to hear! :-)
[19:09] <c7p> herat screens are pushed on the branch ?
[19:09] <godbyk> Though, I suppose it's more likely that the authors I need to worry about are the ones who aren't at the meeting. ;-)
[19:09] <c7p> y maybe :D
[19:09] <stillnotcool> ha! true
[19:09] <herat> c7p: Yes.
[19:09] <godbyk> c7p: Were there some issues with the Troubleshooting chapter?
[19:09] <c7p> cool so is finished almost finished ?
[19:10] <c7p> yap will talk about it next
[19:10] <herat> c7p: Yes. It is finished. :)
[19:10] <c7p> cool
[19:11] <c7p> well
[19:11] <c7p> from the desktop chapter i got almost no feedback from John
[19:11] <c7p> Hannie must doing well
[19:12] <c7p> what concerns me most is the first part of that chapter that is very important and doesn't have an author
[19:12] <sayantandas> hello
[19:12] <sayantandas> everyone
[19:12] <c7p> hey sayantandas
[19:12] <sayantandas> finally managed to login to irc!
[19:12] <c7p> :D glad to hear that
[19:12] <tomswartz07> c7p: which chapter is missing an author?
[19:12] <c7p> yap
[19:13] <c7p> i 've sent a message to the list but nobody seemed interested
[19:13] <c7p> or maybe John did but i got scarce feedback from him
[19:14] <c7p> we'll need one or two to get assigned to it
[19:14] <c7p> i don't think many have to change there but that section has to be the most well-written
[19:14] <c7p> cause it's very critical in my opinion
[19:14] <tomswartz07> can we just flip an editor to review it?
[19:15] <godbyk> c7p: I agree that that section is most critical to understanding how to use Unity/Ubuntu.
[19:15] <c7p> tomswartz07: maybe, that could help,
[19:15] <c7p> is anyone interested in helping with that section ?
[19:16] <tomswartz07> i figure, if there arent too many changes, it should be no issue for an 'editor' style review
[19:16] <TonyP> I will review it, if that would help
[19:16] <c7p> cool, thx TonyP
[19:16] <TonyP> Just point me at it
[19:17] <c7p> we need an author too to write the HUD section
[19:17] <sayantandas> if any chapter requires input, i may be able to help..
[19:17] <c7p> and maybe the chapter has to be reorganized for a better understanding, i'm not sure about that though
[19:17] <c7p> good to know
[19:17] <sayantandas> i have the sound menu for review; i have seen changes are quite little
[19:18] <c7p> cool
[19:19] <c7p> then the Additional software section
[19:19] <c7p> i have not feedback from its author
[19:19] <c7p> herat could you manage it ?
[19:19] <godbyk> Hello, che.
[19:20] <c7p> *additional software section is in the Software management chapter
[19:20] <Guest67191> He guys, sorry I'm late, rushed off my feet here :)
[19:20] <herat> c7p: Yes, I could do that.
[19:20] <c7p> hello Guest67191
[19:20] <c7p> herat: nice, thx
[19:20] <Guest67191> <--kereltis
[19:21] <c7p> hm, anything else to be said in this topic ?
[19:22] <godbyk> c7p: Did we find authors for all the sections that need them?
[19:22] <c7p> Anthony will do the office suite and totem sections
[19:23] <c7p> and then troubleshooting chapter need author
[19:23] <c7p> or authors
[19:23] <c7p> tomswartz07 and Kev Quirk are interested from what i remeber
[19:23] <c7p> if nobody appears for that chatper
[19:23] <godbyk> c7p: Okay. Let's try to get that sorted out over the next couple days. If need be, we can put out another call for authors for those sections.
[19:23] <tomswartz07> sure, id be willing to work on it.
[19:24] <c7p> godbyk: yea
[19:24] <sayantandas> i am ok to work for HUD + my existing sections
[19:24] <godbyk> #topic Troubleshooting chapter
[19:24] <godbyk> c7p: Did we cover the troubleshooting chapter already?
[19:25] <c7p> tomswartz07: could you manage the a part of this section or make an outline for it ?
[19:25] <c7p> nope i don't think so
[19:25] <tomswartz07> surely. what do you need done?
[19:25] <c7p> sayantandas: ok good :), we'll talk through mail about it
[19:26] <c7p> 1st i think the chapter needs to be re-written in order to meet today needs
[19:26] <c7p> not much have changed there since 10.04
[19:26] <c7p> at least that's my impression
[19:26] <c7p> so section have to be removed, others need update and others need to be added
[19:27] <c7p> what do you think ?
[19:27] <tomswartz07> sounds good. Ill work up a detailed outline for the new chapter
[19:28] <c7p> ah good
[19:28] <tomswartz07> would GoogleDocs work for everyone, or should I use another service?
[19:28] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Google Docs should work fine.
[19:28] <c7p> Kev is also interested so if you need a second hand he should be able to help
[19:28] <godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard.
[19:28] <c7p> hello Chris !: )
[19:28] <ChrisWoollard> Sorry I am late. Was putting kids to bed
[19:29] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Excuses, excuses!
[19:29] <Guest67191> Hi Chris
[19:29] <ChrisWoollard> At least i remembered this time
[19:29] <c7p> aren't you watching Chelsea ? :P
[19:29] <ChrisWoollard> Hi Guest67191
[19:29] <ChrisWoollard> No. Couldn't care less about football
[19:29] <c7p> fair enough
[19:30] <tomswartz07> zing!
[19:30] <Guest67191> brb guys, trying to sort out this name thing
[19:30] <kereltis> ok, sorted
[19:30] <godbyk> c7p: Did we get all the authors/chapters discussion sorted?  (That is, shall we move on to the next topic?)
[19:30] <c7p> ok so tom will make an outline of the new chapter
[19:30] <tomswartz07> yes
[19:31] <tomswartz07> ill sort it and share with the mailing list
[19:31] <c7p> if tom hasn't to say anything else let's proceed
[19:31] <c7p> :) nice
[19:31] <godbyk> #topic VirtualBox as a tool for authors and editors
[19:31] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Did you want to lead this part of the discussion?
[19:31] <tomswartz07> certainly.
[19:32] <tomswartz07> ive found that, while working on the manual sections, VirtualBox makes it easier to manage your systems
[19:32] <tomswartz07> i feel it would be best to give an example.
[19:33] <tomswartz07> In the Instant Messaging section, there is a section on the 'First Run' dialog, and how you may set up your accounts.
[19:33] <tomswartz07> unfortunately, its difficult to pull up the first run, well.. after your first run.
[19:34] <tomswartz07> If you use Virtualbox, you can run a fresh, clean install of Ubuntu, avoiding issues from your own personal customizations
[19:35] <c7p> hm, that would be highly beneficial especially if we use it for the 12.10,
[19:35] <tomswartz07> I feel that this would be most helpful for the sections that deal with the desktop and UI elements, as having screenshots with various backgrounds, fonts, etc may confuse
[19:36] <tomswartz07> the main feature about Virtualbox is that you can take a "Snapshot" that saves the exact machine state.
[19:36] <kereltis> I agree, I use vbox all the time for testing distros and it's very easy to setup and use
[19:36] <tomswartz07> so, if you need to redo a 'first-run' menu many times, you just reload that snapshot
[19:37] <tomswartz07> kereltis: right! its very easy to set up- it installs a basic Ubuntu (or any OS) as a file on your drive, and you run it as a program
[19:37] <kereltis> yep
[19:38] <godbyk> tomswartz07: If people are interested in using VirtualBox with the Ubuntu Manual project, it might be useful to have some step-by-step instructions on how to set it up for that use. We could put the instructions on the mailing list and in the style guide.
[19:38] <tomswartz07> Certainly.
[19:38] <c7p> good idea
[19:38] <kereltis> good idea
[19:39] <c7p> after some releases this guide will be a manual to make a manual :P
[19:39] <tomswartz07> very meta
[19:39] <godbyk> c7p: That's the goal. I'm trying to dump all of our how-to's and instructions in there.
[19:40] <tomswartz07> i guess the idea is, if we all die in a plane crash, everyone will know how to redo the manual
[19:40] <c7p> btw Kevin, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual works ?
[19:40] <TonyP> We will need to have a list of standard login id, machine name, etc
[19:40] <godbyk> c7p: Yes, though it's likely woefully out of date.
[19:41] <c7p> yes i see it
[19:41] <thorwil> does virtualbox support some kind of automation?
[19:41] <tomswartz07> thorwil: what do you mean?
[19:42] <thorwil> tomswartz07: automating "user" actions
[19:42] <tomswartz07> no, unfortunately.
[19:42] <tomswartz07> Virtualbox is made to allow you to run different operating systems at once on the same machine
[19:43] <tomswartz07> similar to Parallels for Mac, i guess.
[19:43] <thorwil> being able to write a script that walks through all required states and does screenshots would have been to awesome
[19:43] <godbyk> thorwil: Agreed. That would've been awesome.
[19:43] <godbyk> If VirtualBox could've been giving a list of keystrokes and mouse clicks to perform.
[19:44] <c7p> has anyone checked it http://shutter-project.org/ ?
[19:44] <tomswartz07> Now, VB can take a screenshot of the system that will work for our manual, provided you set the VB resolution to the proper settings.
[19:44] <c7p> that sounds interesting tom
[19:45] <herat> c7p: tried that but did not work perfectly for me.
[19:45] <tomswartz07> c7p: right?
[19:46] <tomswartz07> Because the entire OS from virtualbox runs in a program window, you can resize the 'display' to the appropriate setting and snap the screenshots
[19:47] <godbyk> c7p: Shutter looks nice and appears to have a plugin system. I wonder if the functionality of Quickshot could be incorporated into a Shutter plugin.
[19:48] <c7p> i ll take a look on it in summer when i'll have more free time
[19:48] <godbyk> #topic UDS meeting report
[19:48] <c7p> *i'll look at it
[19:49] <godbyk> Hannie and I attended the Ubuntu Manual UDS session via IRC.
[19:49] <godbyk> I'm not sure who else was listening in at the time on IRC.
[19:49] <kereltis> I missed it
[19:49] <c7p> me too :(
[19:49] <ChrisWoollard> missed uds completely
[19:49] <godbyk> We discussed a bit about the history of the project and a bit about where we wanted to go with it.
[19:49] <kereltis> was hoping it would appear on youtube
[19:50] <godbyk> popey posted an email to his LUG and a blog entry asking his readers why they weren't contributing to the manual. You can read their responses:
[19:50] <godbyk> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2012-May/thread.html#34095
[19:51] <godbyk> http://popey.com/blog/2012/05/09/why-not-contribute-to-ubuntu-manual/
[19:51] <godbyk> Just a sec and I'll find the link to the IRC channel logs.
[19:52] <TonyP> Well, I responded to popey's email
[19:52] <kereltis> we ask Jono to include a trophy in his ubuntu trophy project, might help with awarness
[19:52] <godbyk> Here are the pad notes from the session: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20570/desktop-q-ubuntu-manual/
[19:53] <c7p> Kevin i think Latex terrifies everyone who checks out getting involved pages !
[19:53] <stillnotcool> c7p: +1
[19:54] <tomswartz07> +2
[19:54] <kereltis> c7p that's a good point
[19:54] <godbyk> IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/09/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h.html
[19:54] <c7p> +3 so :P
[19:54] <stillnotcool> I have been contributing to the manual since the first edition, and I have never once installed or run Latex
[19:54] <godbyk> The IRC logs consist primarily of me responding to questions and discussion from the people at the UDS session.
[19:54] <godbyk> (So it'll read as being quite one-sided.)
[19:55] <thorwil> what's the alternative? docbook isn't necessarily more accessible. the manual written in LO Writer isn't gonna happen
[19:55] <godbyk> Is it LaTeX itself that's intimidating or the installation process?
[19:55] <c7p> we can still use Latex
[19:55] <c7p> but the authors should have the option either to use it or not
[19:56] <godbyk> We have in the past allowed authors to submit their work in others formats.
[19:56] <godbyk> Then we have editors manage the LaTeX markup.
[19:56] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Yes, and I think that went a long way toward encouraging more participation
[19:56] <godbyk> I'm okay with that as long as the editors as willing to do it.
[19:57] <godbyk> From the discussions I've had, it seems that people have been more put off by the installation process of upstream TeX Live than in using LaTeX itself.
[19:57] <godbyk> Do you guys agree or disagree?
[19:57] <tomswartz07> half and half.
[19:58] <kereltis> agree
[19:58] <TonyP> No probs for me even though I have not used LaTeX, but the install was hairy
[19:58] <godbyk> Unfortunately, I think that the Debian folks are still rejiggering their texlive packages. (They're completely overhauling the way they're organized.)
[19:58] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Agree.  The installation process involves using the command line
[19:58] <tomswartz07> i think that many are put off by the massive install base that TeX takes, and the other half assume that you need to be a code monkey to do anything
[19:58] <ChrisWoollard> I can imagine people just want a ubuntu package.
[19:58] <kereltis> I'd still prefer to use Libreoffice though
[19:58] <sayantandas> there is a gui version of latex, and also libreoffice extension.. can we not use either of them?
[19:59] <godbyk> sayantandas: Well, there are LaTeX editors (basically IDEs for LaTeX) and you're welcome to use those.
[19:59] <c7p> godbyk: can't we generate a file with the proper options that will be used from installer ?
[19:59] <godbyk> sayantandas: I don't think that the LibreOffice extensions will work with our manual, however.
[19:59] <godbyk> c7p: I'm not sure. I'll look into it, though.
[19:59] <stillnotcool> I'm wondering if authors need to install or use LaTeX at all.  If not, then we might be able to remove all the LaTeX stuff from the "getting involved" instructions
[20:00] <godbyk> Ideally, I'd love for our authors and editors to be able to do all of the work via a web editor (similar to a wiki but a bit more structured). But we need to do some design work and a lot of coding before that can happen.
[20:00] <stillnotcool> this might eliminate a critical barrier to entry, allowing folks new to the project (or thinking about getting involved with it) a simple way to do so: Contrat the group, find an editor who needs a writer for a section, and get cracking.
[20:01] <stillnotcool> *contact
[20:01] <godbyk> stillnotcool: That's something we can do now. Authors can submit their writings to an editor as long as the editor is willing to convert it to LaTeX for them.
[20:02] <stillnotcool> Right.  And it's worked well in recent editions.
[20:02] <c7p> can we use docbook to generate latex code ?
[20:02] <godbyk> c7p: Yes. Though there will always have to be some fine-tuning of the output.
[20:03] <godbyk> c7p: I think that the docbook markup is at least as scary as the LaTeX markup, though.
[20:03] <ChrisWoollard> i agree
[20:03] <c7p> ok
[20:04] <stillnotcool> godbyk: I agree. What I'm thinking about might indicate a larger shift in the way we conceptualize the role of author and editor, the division of labor between the two
[20:04] <tomswartz07> stillnotcool: +1
[20:05] <godbyk> I completely agree that we should simplify the workflow for authors and editors.
[20:05] <stillnotcool> The instructions we feature on our home page seem to imply that writers -- in order to write and contribute -- need complex installations of software not already on their machiens, and not even available in the official repositories
[20:05] <godbyk> And it'd be nice if they didn't have to know anything about LaTeX.
[20:05] <godbyk> I think that having a web-based editing system would fix those issues for us, and that we should work on creating one.
[20:06] <godbyk> (Though it obviously won't happen in time for 12.04, it'd be nice if it could be in place for 12.10 or at least 13.04.)
[20:06] <TonyP> But do they still need to use bzr?
[20:06] <stillnotcool> TonyP: Ideally, authors would be in charge of writing.  Anything else is icing, gravy.
[20:06] <TonyP> That's just as scary
[20:06] <stillnotcool> Here's what Hannie and I do for Chapter 8:
[20:07] <stillnotcool> Hannie pulls the most recent copy of the chapter from bzr when it's time to work
[20:07] <stillnotcool> He shares that on Google Docs, where we both collaborate (I do the writing, he edits as I go).
[20:07] <stillnotcool> WHen I sign off on it, he gives it a final edit, asks any remaining questions, then tightens the markeup and pushes the revision
[20:08] <stillnotcool> This is a special case, I suppose, because we don't have screenshots
[20:08] <stillnotcool> He and I both agreed to use GDocs because we're comfortable with it, and it mae collaborating easier.
[20:08] <godbyk> Cool.
[20:08] <stillnotcool> Writer/editor pairs could choose another tool if one works better.
[20:08] <tomswartz07> Thats a very great idea
[20:09] <stillnotcool> But this has worked well for us, and allowed me to do what I enjoy most: writing.
[20:09] <godbyk> Another route that some authors/editors have taken is to just drop .ods files into an Ubuntu One shared folder.
[20:09] <stillnotcool> godbyk: I like that, too.
[20:09] <c7p> sounds good
[20:09] <ChrisWoollard> Maybe it is just a case of making sure people know that they can write anyway that suits them
[20:09] <tomswartz07> or Dropbox, if you prefer cross platform for us Arch users :)
[20:10] <godbyk> What I have envisioned is that we'd have a website that works similar to a wiki. Though instead of using wiki markup, we'd have a WYSIWYG editor.
[20:10] <godbyk> Authors would write content.
[20:10] <stillnotcool> We might advertise author jobs as writing jobs, and editor jobs as technical positions -- the work not only of editing prose, but marking up copy and taking screenshots (doing more technical work)
[20:10] <godbyk> Once authors have written content, the editors are notified and can come along and tweak things.
[20:10] <godbyk> Once the editors have finished with it, the translators are notified and can translate that section.
[20:10] <godbyk> All of that would happen on the website. There'd be no LaTeX or bzr visible.
[20:11] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Right.
[20:11] <godbyk> In addition, when something that's been translated is edited/modified, the translated can see what's actually changed.
[20:11] <godbyk> So if, say, a comma were added, the translated could see that only a comma has been added and that they don't need to retranslate the entire paragraph.
[20:12] <godbyk> I think that would go a long way toward helping our translators.
[20:12] <godbyk> They could start work a lot earlier in the process and keep up more easily.
[20:12] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Well put
[20:12] <godbyk> Once everything has been written an edited, we'd generate the LaTeX code, make any tweaks there that we wanted to make and have our PDFs ready to go.
[20:12] <herat> http://www.scribtex.com/ Has anyone tried it? It has all the features we need.
[20:12] <godbyk> At the same time, we'd generate ePUB and other formats.
[20:13] <stillnotcool> herat: Yes! But costly.
[20:13] <herat> stillnotcool: Oh. Did not see that.
[20:13] <godbyk> herat: I haven't tried it yet. Though we'd need to be able to use our own document class ("template").
[20:13] <godbyk> And it looks like it's $10/month.
[20:14] <godbyk> Anyway, that's some of what I have envisioned for our website and process in the future. To make that happen, we'd need to design the site in more detail and find some web developers to create it for us.
[20:15] <c7p> yap
[20:15] <c7p> we also need to talk about the project to the outside world
[20:15] <stillnotcool> herat: I won't presume to argue for what's best with regard to our implementation/use of LaTeX.  godbyk is the expert there, and knowsmore about what we need/want than I do.  I'll just say that from a writer's perspective the current instructions are a little intimidating, and I think it behooves us in the near future to reconsider our writer/editor workflow to better accommodate newer contributors.
[20:15] <godbyk> This website would also allow for drive-by editing. Anyone can come along and fix bugs.
[20:15] <stillnotcool> godbyk: I like it.
[20:15] <godbyk> If they're anonymous edits, they'd need to be approved by a registered editor first.
[20:16] <tomswartz07> I think what we need is a person to basically hit up all of the Linux news outlets and cheerlead our project. if we could get more users, we could get much more varied skills and more breathing room to work
[20:16] <ChrisWoollard> maybe worth testing at least
[20:16] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: What's worth testing?
[20:16] <ChrisWoollard> scribtex
[20:16] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Ah, gotcha.
[20:17] <godbyk> I'll poke around it a bit and see how it looks.
[20:17] <ChrisWoollard> click trial. it takes you to a demo site
[20:17] <stillnotcool> I like how the basic/free version is limited to "one bollaborator."  I'm unsure what that actually looks like!
[20:17] <stillnotcool> *collaborator
[20:18] <godbyk> Another topic that was raised during the UDS session:
[20:18] <godbyk> #topic Collaboration with the docs team
[20:18] <godbyk> The question of why we're not collaborating with the docs team is raised periodically.
[20:19] <godbyk> Aside from some initial strife between Ben and the docs team when the project first started,
[20:19] <godbyk> I think the real reason for lack of collaboration is that no one from either team has really taken up the issue.
[20:19] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Right, a schism I never really understood, to be honest.
[20:19] <ChrisWoollard> Are they still using another system. I forgot which one
[20:19] <c7p> godbyk: i agree
[20:19] <godbyk> My question is: In what ways would  teams benefit from collaboration? How can we collaborate?
[20:20] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I think they're using docbook/mallard markup.
[20:20] <ChrisWoollard> Ahhh. Mallard. That's what I was thinking of
[20:20] <stillnotcool> I think the docs team likely has a better sense of what's most useful to the uninitiated.
[20:21] <godbyk> Questions: How could the docs team help the manual project?   How could we help the docs team?
[20:21] <stillnotcool> The docs team must document _everything_ in Ubuntu, but it's likely they have some kind of data regarding which documentation is accessed most frequently by new users.
[20:21] <stillnotcool> Understanding these patterns might help us target our manual and ensure that our chapters cover relevant material
[20:22] <c7p> i don't know how we can help each other, maybe we can have a poll of content were anyone of both project can have direct access to the work of the other
[20:22] <stillnotcool> And because we are trying to remain sensitive to the needs of new/inexperienced users, we might offer them this perspective on relevant sections of the official documentation, which could benefit from what we've already done
[20:23] <godbyk> I'll ask a stupid question while I'm at it (admitting my own ignorance): What does the docs team do?
[20:23] <godbyk> From what I gather, they maintain the official Ubuntu help files.
[20:24] <stillnotcool> my understanding is that the team maintains the documentation at help.ubuntu.com
[20:24] <c7p> i think that's what they do
[20:24] <godbyk> Okay.
[20:24] <ChrisWoollard> It would be nice to hear from them occasionally
[20:24] <TonyP> So they are the help team
[20:24] <stillnotcool> My sense is that we're all working with the same mission, though our foci are different
[20:25] <stillnotcool> we are writing material specifically targetted at new users
[20:25] <kereltis> True but I see the two projects as aiming at different people, they cover everything in great detail which can turn into geek speech, good stuff but can be intimidating if your new to computers. We on the other hand target the people that are brand new and just want the basics to get them started in basic language they can easily follow.
[20:25] <stillnotcool> what we do seems to me a subset of the overal project of documenting Ubuntu
[20:25] <stillnotcool> kereltis: Yes.
[20:26] <stillnotcool> So, try this:
[20:26] <stillnotcool> visit the home page for 12.04 documentation
[20:26] <stillnotcool> https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/index.html
[20:26] <TonyP> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[20:26] <stillnotcool> On that page, you'll see a few different types of documentaiton
[20:26] <stillnotcool> A desktop guide
[20:26] <stillnotcool> A server guide
[20:26] <stillnotcool> and an installation guide
[20:27] <stillnotcool> our manual could be the first link: 1. "Getting Started Guide"
[20:27] <godbyk> One difference between their desktop guide <https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/index.html> and our manual is that we can't easily redirect the user to read, say, the Empathy help pages for more information. We try to include the most common and useful information directly in our manual.
[20:28] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Right, and we rightly shouldn't.
[20:28] <godbyk> In other words, our manual needs to be fairly self-contained instead of merely pointing to other documentation.
[20:28] <c7p> yap
[20:28] <stillnotcool> Our manual assists new folks with the task of navigating a stock installation.
[20:28] <godbyk> I'm just poking around their desktop guide, so this may not be representative.
[20:29] <godbyk> It appears that their style is very oriented on the how-to.
[20:29] <godbyk> Example: “To let other users use your computer, you can either log out, or leave yourself logged in and just switch users. If you switch users, all of your applications will continue running, and everything will be where you left it when you log back in.”
[20:29] <stillnotcool> When they're ready to graduate from "Getting Started," they head to the "Desktop Guide," which could actually be renamed to something like "Complete Documentation" or "Advance Documentation"
[20:29] <godbyk> Most of their paragraphs begin with, “To do x, ...”
[20:29] <godbyk> Whereas we should be providing a bit more background/discussion instead of just a sequence of steps to follow.
[20:30] <stillnotcool> godbyk: +1
[20:30] <c7p> +1
[20:31] <godbyk> Having said that, I do think it'd be useful if we explored the topics that they're covering in the desktop and installation guides to see if there's anything that we're missing.
[20:31] <godbyk> (Or conversely, anything that they're missing that we think they should add.)
[20:31] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Agreed.
[20:31] <kereltis> Agreed
[20:31] <c7p> me too
[20:31] <godbyk> Would anyone here be interested in taking up that task?
[20:31] <godbyk> That is, doing a comparison between their desktop and installation guides and our manual?
[20:32] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Would it be something each author could do for his or her individual chapter?  Perhaps editors could peruse the documentation for their subjects and suggest to authors changes or additions.
[20:32] <godbyk> stillnotcool: Possibly, though the info might be scattered around quite a bit.
[20:33] <godbyk> Tell you what, I'll take on that task.
[20:33] <godbyk> I'll have a look at their guides and see what they cover and what we cover, figure out the overlap and things that each group has missed.
[20:33] <c7p> guys i got to go
[20:33] <stillnotcool> godbyk: That's generous.  Thanks for doing it.
[20:34] <godbyk> Okay, see you later, c7p.
[20:34] <kereltis> cya c7p
[20:34] <c7p> i think this was one of the best meetings !
[20:34] <c7p> see you all
[20:34] <stillnotcool> bye c7p
[20:34] <c7p> thanks for being here
[20:34] <kereltis> same, we got a lot discussed
[20:35] <godbyk> Okay, I think we have just a couple more topics and then we'll be finished.
[20:35] <godbyk> #topic Screenshot editors
[20:35] <godbyk> We've discussed this previously a bit.
[20:36] <godbyk> I think that it'd work best if the authors took the initial screenshots (so they can show us what they want), and then we should have one or two screenshot editors who come along afterward and take all the "official" screenshots.
[20:36] <godbyk> I think having a couple people taking all the screenshots will help ensure consistency.
[20:36] <kereltis> agreed, it would cut down on problems
[20:36] <godbyk> What do you guys think?
[20:37] <TonyP> Good idea
[20:37] <stillnotcool> godbyk: Sounds easy enough.  Writers could just use the built-in screenshot software to give editors the gist.
[20:37] <godbyk> Would anyone here like to volunteer to be a screenshot editor?
[20:38] <godbyk> If not, I'll send an email to the list and ask for volunteers.
[20:38] <godbyk> Okay, I'll email the list.
[20:38] <kereltis> We'll need someone who knows LateX I presume
[20:39] <godbyk> kereltis: Nope. Just someone who's detail-oriented and can take screenshot with the proper resolution and whatnot.
[20:40] <godbyk> #topic Call for editors
[20:40] <godbyk> Hannie sent an email to the list earlier this week to get volunteers to be editors.
[20:40] <godbyk> I don't think she got much of a response.
[20:40] <TonyP> Just me and someone else
[20:40] <kereltis> We could ask omgubuntu and iHeartubuntu to give us a mention and ask for editors
[20:40] <godbyk> She's going to email the editors we have and some of the editors we've had in the past to see if they're still interested in helping.
[20:41] <godbyk> Having said that, I think that we'll still need more editors.
[20:41] <godbyk> I'll write up a call for editors that we can send out to website.
[20:41] <godbyk> What website would you suggest I send it to?
[20:42] <kereltis> omgubuntu
[20:42] <tomswartz07> kereltis: +1
[20:42] <stillnotcool> think that's our best bet
[20:42] <godbyk> Okay.
[20:42] <godbyk> I'll have someone post it to Planet Ubuntu as well.
[20:43] <TonyP> Something in the Ubuntu weekly news?
[20:43] <stillnotcool> we might make the call more specific ... assess our needs as say "we need editors with knowledge of x, y, and z"
[20:43] <stillnotcool> TonyP: +1
[20:43] <godbyk> TonyP: Good idea. I'll ask pleia2 about that.
[20:43] <kereltis> yep, maybe http://benjaminkerensa.com/ as well
[20:44] <godbyk> 'kay.
[20:44] <godbyk> #topic Any other business
[20:44] <godbyk> I think we've touched on everything that was on the agenda.
[20:45] <stillnotcool> Nice work godbyk. Thanks for chairing and leading.
[20:45] <godbyk> Just a reminder that the upcoming deadline of 31 May is when authors need to have finished their writing and draft screenshots.
[20:45] <godbyk> Does anyone have any other business they'd like to discuss?
[20:45] <godbyk> Or any questions?
[20:46] <stillnotcool> All set :)
[20:46] <godbyk> All right. Since there is no other business, we're adjourned.
[20:46] <godbyk> Thanks for coming, everyone!
[20:46] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[20:46] <meetingology> Meeting ended Sat May 19 20:46:46 2012 UTC.
[20:46] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-05-19-19.05.moin.txt
[20:46] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-05-19-19.05.html
[20:46] <kereltis> I've checked my chapter and it can be tranfer straight over from 11.10 instead of converting it again, just needs to looked over by an editor
[20:47] <kereltis> Thanks guys!
[20:47] <godbyk> kereltis: Good to hear -- thanks!
[20:47] <stillnotcool> So long, friends!
[20:47] <godbyk> I'll post the meeting minutes to the mailing list later today.
[20:47] <godbyk> See you later, stillnotcool. Thanks for coming!
[20:47]  * stillnotcool waves
[20:48] <kereltis> See you all, have a great weekend!
[20:48] <tomswartz07> later folks!
[23:53] <pleia2> godbyk: if you post it to planet I'll make sure we include your post in UWN