[18:46] <snail> mōrena
[19:33] <ajmitch> morning
[19:46] <ibeardslee> morning
[19:52] <ajmitch> seems like even windows in a VM isn't immune to suddenly breaking without warning, came to my desk to see it complaining & wanting to do a system restore :)
[19:53] <chilts> morning
[19:57] <chilts> yikes, I'm getting married in less than two weeks! :)
[19:59] <snail> chilts: being married is great, one no longer has to stress about the wedding
[19:59] <chilts> heh, yeah, I think that happens a lot
[19:59] <chilts> I'm looking forward to having more time to do other things, but looking forward to the day itself (can't do anything more then)
[20:00] <thumper> morning
[20:27] <mwhudson> morning
[21:14] <snail> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10789863
[21:17] <mwhudson> i want a cotton candy for $48
[22:01] <ojwb> morning
[22:16] <lifeless> mwhudson: so back country eh?
[22:45] <mwhudson> lifeless: just trying to find a route i once drove to show to a friend
[22:47] <lifeless> mwhudson: tried osm ?
[22:47] <mwhudson> lifeless: no, maybe i should have though
[22:47] <mwhudson> (i beat google maps into submission in the end)
[22:49] <mwhudson> mmm, osm is better on locations but worse on roads
[22:55] <ojwb> patches welcome!
[23:30] <chilts> ojwb: do you do Open Street Map stuff?
[23:30] <chilts> I keep meaning to do it, but Java puts me off and as far as I remember the JavaScript editor is pretty bad
[23:30] <chilts> I'd love to make a good one in JS for them, but I can't afford the time
[23:30] <ojwb> i haven't for quite a while
[23:31] <ojwb> the javascript one had improved quite a lot last time I used it
[23:31] <chilts> oh right, so you just log in and go
[23:31] <chilts> that would be useful
[23:31] <ojwb> there's a C or C++ one too, which wasn't bad but a bit rough in places
[23:31] <ojwb> but that's quite likely to have evolved too
[23:32] <chilts> wonder if they have an API
[23:32] <ojwb> yeah, there is
[23:32] <chilts> hmm ... http://www.openstreetmap.org/ or http://www.openstreetmap.org.nz/
[23:32] <chilts> wonder if the data is the same, or who has the 'master' copy
[23:33] <ojwb> the latter is some local OSM user(s), but I don't think they've done much with it
[23:33] <ojwb> it should be the same data
[23:34] <chilts> "You need a Flash player to use Potlatch, the OpenStreetMap Flash editor. You can download Flash Player from Adobe.com. Several other options are also available for editing OpenStreetMap."
[23:34] <chilts> :(
[23:34] <chilts> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing#The_top_two <- Flash and Java
[23:34] <ojwb> oh, it was flash not javascript
[23:35] <chilts> yeah :(
[23:35] <chilts> nope, no mention of JavaScript on that page at all
[23:36] <ojwb> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merkaartor is the one I used mostly
[23:36] <chilts> ojwb: what the smallest, easiest, most miniscule thing you can do on OSM to make an edit (ie. a good test for a JS editor)?
[23:36] <ojwb> add a point feature, I guess
[23:36] <chilts> like a postbox or something?
[23:37] <ojwb> yeah
[23:37] <chilts> I see my street isn't correct since it's been extended recently
[23:37] <ojwb> if you mean for testing, I think there's a sandbox
[23:37] <chilts> righto, cool
[23:37] <chilts> well, I guess I'll have a play in April sometime :D
[23:37] <chilts> oh, and merkaartor looks like it's in Lucid and wants to install 74MB, which I'll try later on
[23:39] <chilts> lots of QT4 stuff
[23:40] <ojwb> i don't see anything about a sandbox, perhaps I'm confused
[23:41] <ojwb> but it's usually not hard to find a missing postbox or tree or ...
[23:42] <G> chilts: ojwb: (jumping in the convo blind not having read backlog) but there is a NZ Mailing list that is discussing getting LINZ data properly imported
[23:43]  * ojwb knows
[23:43] <G> chilts: http://groups.google.com/group/nzopengis?hl=en.
[23:49] <chilts> yeah, but I'm more interested in being able to edit the map easily ... which I don't think is possible yet (without using Flash)
[23:49] <chilts> or Java
[23:49] <chilts> ie. rock on up to a website and start editing - nothing to install


[00:02] <micahg> dupondje: not offhand
[00:04] <dupondje> where is the 'default' sound saved btw ?
[00:04] <micahg> dupondje: idk, I turned it off almost immediately on Linux (over 2 yrs ago) so I never played with it
[00:05] <dupondje> heh :)
[00:05] <dupondje> well sound doesn't really matter
[00:05] <dupondje> popup would be cool ^^
[07:31] <kancerman> what settings changed in the dailies to make firefox 4 betas completely incompatible with AMO extensions ??
[13:56] <fta> asac, one of the g-o-s rule in the network-manager ppa has been failing for weeks, could you please ping whoever is concerned? i tried but got no answer
[14:28] <axx_> hi all
[14:28] <axx_> has anyone been using Mail Tweak for Thunderbird?
[14:29] <axx_> I installed yesterday and now TB won't load completely, it gets stuck after I enter the master password
[14:29] <axx_> all I did was reorganise the account order
[14:34] <axx_> ohhh this is ugly, it appears the only reason TB was freezing was because another user was logged… now that I've logged the other user out TB loads fine, even without -safe-mode
[15:50] <micahg> kancerman: not all extensions, there was a version bump though, so it takes time for extensions to catch up
[15:53] <lfaraone> micahg: hmm. if my package sugar-firefox-activity doesn't modify firefox at all, no custom vendor.js, no XPIs or themes of any sort, but the result looks different just because of the GTK theme that Sugar runs in, is that okay?
[15:55] <micahg> lfaraone: I still don't have all the details for the branding deal, maybe asac can answer?
[15:55] <lfaraone> asac: ping.
[15:55] <fta> chrisccoulson, jdstrand, mdeslaur: fyi "[Branch ~chromium-team/chromium-browser/channels] Rev 261: linux/stable (5.0.375.127 -> 6.0.472.53)"
[15:55] <lfaraone> http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7913/screenshotey.png  is what it looks like in Sugar with no modifications.
[15:56] <lfaraone> which is god-awful, you can't read the bookmark text, etc.
[15:56] <mdeslaur> fta: 6.0 needs NEW packages you mentioned?
[15:57] <fta> mdeslaur, yes, *-codecs update (maybe gyp too, i have to check) and libvpx (NEW in lucid)
[15:58] <jdstrand> what a pain
[15:58] <jdstrand> and perfectly timed since the -proposed update just got copied today
[15:58] <fta> none are used by anything else atm
[15:59] <fta> at least, until firefox is bumped to the one supporting webm
[16:00] <fta> as i said, lots of security fixes: http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2010/09/stable-and-beta-channel-updates.html
[16:00] <fta> jdstrand, mdeslaur: ^^
[16:00] <jdstrand> fta: if you are planning to provide these updates for lucid, can you ping me and mdeslaur when you have packages ready and we will build in the ubuntu-security-proposed ppa? we will need a master bug detailing what needs to be done (eg, NEW packages, new versions, what is and is not affected, etc)
[16:01] <jdstrand> fta: mentioning that url in the bug would be keen too
[16:01] <chrisccoulson> firefox is using it's own libvpx i think isn't it?
[16:02] <micahg> chrisccoulson: in 4.0, yes
[16:02] <micahg> chrisccoulson: for xulrunner, we could try to use system vpx
[16:03] <chrisccoulson> yeah, we could do
[16:03]  * micahg doesn't know if there's an option yet though
[16:04]  * micahg is testing upgrade to TB 3.1.3 and then uploading if all is good
[16:15] <micahg> chrisccoulson: any fixes we need to get in thunderbird before I upload?
[16:15] <chrisccoulson> micahg - i don't think so
[16:16] <micahg> chrisccoulson: any strong feelings about my patch name: fix_build_w_nspr_less_than_486.patch
[16:16] <kancerman> micahg: when I go to the AMO website ( up to this point ) almost all the extensions I look forward to downloading from their installation pages the download button is lightened and tells me to install & use firefox ... is what I should've said
[16:17] <chrisccoulson> micahg - no, i'm not too fussed about patch names, as we don't really have a lot of consistency already
[16:17] <chrisccoulson> as long as it works, then it's ok ;)
[16:17] <kancerman> micahg: so I can't tell incompatibles even with the version bump ;)
[16:18] <micahg> maybe mozilla 591125
[16:18] <ubot2> Mozilla bug 591125 in Networking: HTTP "Sanitize the app name for the UA string" [Normal,Resolved: fixed] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591125
[16:19] <micahg> chrisccoulson: yeah, it works, generally, the convention has been lpXXX_bzXXX_attXXX_name.patch, but I didn't have time to upstream it yet and we don't  if have an LP bug, and I wasn't sure when I added it which bugzilla bug it would be :)
[16:19] <kancerman> the odder thing is that browser wide flash isn't loading ... not that I'm too worried ( youtube is just fine ... )
[16:21] <micahg> chrisccoulson: patch cleanup will have to be next cycle ;)
[16:21] <chrisccoulson> micahg - yeah, sounds good
[16:25] <micahg> chrisccoulson: have you looked at the main rdepends for xulrunner at all this cycle?
[16:25] <chrisccoulson> micahg - yeah, there's not much change from last cycle
[16:25] <micahg> chrisccoulson: well, I'm just wondering if there were any upstream compatibility updates for any of them?  is this worth me looking into before final freeze?
[16:27] <chrisccoulson> micahg - i wouldn't worry too much. the main one really is yelp, but we're already on the latest gecko based version of that (and development focus is on the webkit based yelp 3.0 anyway)
[16:29] <micahg> chrisccoulson: k
[16:46] <fta> jdstrand, mdeslaur: bug 628924
[16:46] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 628924 in chromium-browser (Ubuntu) "chromium update: 5.0.375.127 -> 6.0.472.53 (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/628924
[16:49] <jdstrand> fta: thanks
[16:49] <jdstrand> fta: looks good
[17:17] <micahg> chrisccoulson: I assume my uploads will still end up in unapproved, right?
[17:18] <chrisccoulson> micahg - yeah, they will do until we're unfrozen
[17:18] <micahg> chrisccoulson: k, I'm going to push the gnome-shell update w/xulrunner as well
[17:18] <micahg> s/update/wrapper
[17:18] <chrisccoulson> cool
[17:19] <micahg> oh, I need to update gjs as well
[17:20] <micahg> chrisccoulson: would it be bad to wait till tomorrow to push xulrunner so I can update gjs as well and we can see if the update/xul change actually works
[17:21] <chrisccoulson> micahg - no, tomorrow is fine
[17:21] <micahg> chrisccoulson: k, because we probably won't get another release before final, so this seems like the only time to test this
[17:21] <micahg> chrisccoulson: thunderbird 3.1.3 is uploading
[17:23] <micahg> chrisccoulson: speaking of wrappers, should I just make the changes you outlined in the mongodb merge and not wait
[17:23] <chrisccoulson> micahg - i tried it, but it breaks the test-suite
[17:24] <chrisccoulson> (dropping the rpath)
[17:24] <micahg> chrisccoulson: k, well, I can look at that over the weekend
[17:24] <micahg> chrisccoulson: we probably need to add LD_LIBRARY_PATH for it
[17:24] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that would work ok
[17:25] <micahg> chrisccoulson: is this license for the wrapper ok for gnome-shell, I copied the one that Clint added for mongodb: http://paste.ubuntu.com/487333/
[17:26] <chrisccoulson> micahg - yeah, i think so, but i'm not a legal expert though :/
[17:27] <micahg> chrisccoulson: I could grab the one that siretart included in gxine...
[17:28]  * micahg still hasn't done much with licensing
[17:31] <[reed]> why again does Ubuntu put up with Debian craziness?
[17:31] <[reed]> http://planet.fedoraproject.org/
[17:31] <[reed]> oh
[17:31] <[reed]> this is Fedora
[17:31] <[reed]> not Debian
[17:31] <[reed]> lol
[17:31] <[reed]> oops
[17:31] <[reed]> s/Debian/Fedora/ then!
[17:31] <[reed]> third post down
[17:32] <micahg> wow
[17:32] <micahg> post was removed though
[17:32] <vish> ugh!
[17:32]  * micahg has about 150 of those CDs :)
[17:33] <micahg> which will make lovely coasters in 2 months
[17:33] <vish> micahg: i guess they also have a COC or something :D
[17:37] <chrisccoulson> for some reason, i'm not at all surprised to see a post like that
[17:38] <chrisccoulson> i just hope that people in the ubuntu community don't lower themselves to that level
[17:44] <vish> micahg: [reed]:  http://dinosaur-os.com/post/1053912414
[17:44] <vish> chrisccoulson:  seems like a failed attempt at a joke :)
[19:06] <chrisccoulson> hi micahg
[19:06] <micahg> hi chrisccoulson, what's up?
[19:06] <chrisccoulson> micahg - we should start maybe building a list of bugs we'd like to fix in maverick
[19:07] <micahg> chrisccoulson: as in the next 2 weekd?
[19:07] <micahg> *weeks
[19:07] <chrisccoulson> so, if there's anything you want to work on (or think i should work on), let me know and i can get someone to approve the bug nominations
[19:07] <chrisccoulson> yeah, in the next 2 weeks ;)
[19:07] <chrisccoulson> it seems a crazily short period between beta and final freeze
[19:07] <micahg> chrisccoulson: k, where, gobby doc?
[19:08] <micahg> blueprint?
[19:08] <chrisccoulson> micahg - anywhere really. we can just discuss bugs on-channel if you like (and the list shouldn't be very long anyway)
[19:08] <micahg> chrisccoulson: k, I'll look over the weekend
[19:08] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[19:08] <micahg> chrisccoulson: I'd definitely like to take care of the xul wrapper stuff
[19:09] <chrisccoulson> yeah, sounds good
[19:09] <chrisccoulson> people keep pinging me about bug 239952, which i'd really like to get fixed for maverick (and lucid too)
[19:09] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 239952 in firefox-3.5 (Ubuntu) (and 5 other projects) "firefox - the associated helper application does not exist (affects: 49) (dups: 2) (heat: 280)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/239952
[19:10] <micahg> chrisccoulson: that's fixed in 4.0
[19:10] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i've just tested the commit that fixes it
[19:10] <chrisccoulson> it needs some source backporting for 1.9.2 to remove the gio parts though
[19:11] <micahg> chrisccoulson: ugh, that makes it harder to get branch approval
[19:11] <chrisccoulson> i'll try and get approval for it anyway. if not, then we can try and ship it as a distro patch
[19:11] <chrisccoulson> and i think that one is worth it (it has quite a high annoyance factor)
[19:12] <micahg> chrisccoulson: agreed
[19:12] <chrisccoulson> the mimetype stuff is a mess though
[19:12] <chrisccoulson> i've spent the whole day trying to understand why it doesnt work, so i can understand why the patch fixes it
[19:12] <micahg> in 1.9.2 or 2.0
[19:12] <chrisccoulson> micahg - both ;)
[19:13] <micahg> heh
[19:13] <chrisccoulson> the actual commit was to fix an unrelated problem, but it fixes this bug indirectly
[19:13] <micahg> yeah, it seemed to fix a few
[19:28] <micahg> chrisccoulson: I think maybe we should do a prism update as well, but I have to fix the FTBFS with the current trunk first
[20:28] <kenvandine> BUGabundo, hey... i just asked for another log
[20:28] <kenvandine> BUGabundo, but on another note... notifications from your statusnet posts are causing my gwibber to crash
[20:29] <kenvandine> i have been chasing a bug in libproxy that is segfaulting on caching of avatars
[20:29] <BUGabundo> its not crashing
[20:29] <kenvandine> but i haven't been able to reliably reproduce it
[20:29] <kenvandine> this isn't related
[20:29] <kenvandine> anyway
[20:29] <BUGabundo> it has been running prety smooth for a few days now
[20:30] <kenvandine> every notification i get from your statusnet account is crashing my gwibber-service
[20:30] <BUGabundo> darn SSL
[20:30] <kenvandine> when it downloads your  avatar
[20:30] <BUGabundo> can you circunvey it ?
[20:30] <kenvandine> oh.... i bet that is it!
[20:30] <kenvandine> humm
[20:31] <BUGabundo> kenvandine: that log contains a lot of personal info
[20:31] <BUGabundo> not willing to disclouse most of it :\
[20:31] <kenvandine> well look at it, see if there is anything of interest
[20:31] <kenvandine> i am confident gwibber is at least attempting to notify
[20:31] <kenvandine> i might add a couple lines of code for debugging and get you to run a branch
[20:32] <BUGabundo> [2010-09-02T20:26:27-00:00, Gwibber ] Fábio André Damas
[20:32] <BUGabundo> New blog post: Severed Fifth: um novo paradigma musical http://blog.skkeeper.info//?p=396
[20:32] <BUGabundo> yeah, its there
[20:32] <kenvandine> notifications finally work right in gwibber now, as of last night :)
[20:32] <kenvandine> ok... so notify-osd is getting it
[20:32] <kenvandine> but you aren't seein git
[20:32] <kenvandine> are you seeing other notifications?
[20:32] <BUGabundo> everything else is being published by notif
[20:32] <BUGabundo> mail, pidgin, downloads
[20:33] <kenvandine> so this bug has to be a notify-osd bug though
[20:33] <kenvandine> since we proved notify-osd got the notification
[20:33] <kenvandine> can you run  a script for me?
[20:34] <BUGabundo> sure
[20:35] <kenvandine> grab lp:notify-osd
[20:35] <kenvandine> and look in the examples dir
[20:36] <BUGabundo> $ bzr lp:notify-osd
[20:36] <BUGabundo> bzr: ERROR: unknown command "lp:notify-osd"
[20:36] <BUGabundo> wrong repo ?
[20:36] <BUGabundo> err
[20:36] <BUGabundo> nvm
[20:36] <BUGabundo> branch
[20:36] <kenvandine> :)
[20:38] <BUGabundo> kenvandine: looking
[20:38] <BUGabundo> what for?
[20:38] <kenvandine> one sec
[20:38] <kenvandine>  ./append-hint-example.py
[20:38] <kenvandine> for example
[20:38] <kenvandine> run that
[20:39] <BUGabundo> done
[20:39] <kenvandine> did you see the notifications?
[20:39] <BUGabundo> no
[20:40] <BUGabundo> but saw one from email
[20:40] <kenvandine> ok, your notify-osd is broken somehow
[20:40] <kenvandine> and your email is using notify-osd?
[20:40] <BUGabundo> yes
[20:40] <kenvandine> i assume
[20:40] <BUGabundo> and pidgin
[20:40] <kenvandine> ok
[20:40] <kenvandine> humm
[20:40] <BUGabundo> if you ping me, I get it
[20:40] <kenvandine> no idea... i guess file a bug against notify-osd
[20:40] <kenvandine> something is broken there
[20:40] <BUGabundo> this is a pretty clean system too
[20:40] <BUGabundo> clean isntall from last week
[20:40] <BUGabundo> daily live cd maverick
[20:41] <kenvandine> weird you get them from some things
[20:41] <kenvandine> but this simple test script doesn't work
[20:41] <BUGabundo> let me rerun and pay more attention
[20:41] <kenvandine> actually i'll move this bug to notify-osd
[20:42] <BUGabundo> just got a strange message
[20:42] <kenvandine> it should display the notification for pretty long
[20:42] <BUGabundo> I can't see where it did come from
[20:42] <BUGabundo> assuming from the example
[20:42] <kenvandine> paste please
[20:43] <BUGabundo> [2010-09-02T20:41:45-00:00, append-hint-example ] Cole Raby
[20:43] <BUGabundo> Did really everything in the race work according to regulations?
[20:43] <BUGabundo> yep, its from the example
[20:43] <BUGabundo> so, so far its only gwibber failing
[20:44] <kenvandine> oh, you did get that in a notification?
[20:44] <kenvandine> not sure how you could have missed it
[20:44] <kenvandine> it lasts on the screen for like 30s
[20:44] <kenvandine> and gets pretty big
[20:45] <BUGabundo> yeah, I noticed it was big
[20:45] <BUGabundo> but didn't last that long
[20:45] <BUGabundo> and I get a lot of long notes from pidgin MUCs
[20:45] <kenvandine> i moved this bug to notify-osd, it is definately not a gwibber bug
[20:45] <kenvandine> notify-osd got the notification and queued it
[20:45] <kenvandine> so nothing else gwibber could do
[20:46] <BUGabundo> okay
[20:46] <BUGabundo> thanks
[20:46] <BUGabundo> diner time
[20:46] <kenvandine> i'll comment again on that bug
[20:46] <BUGabundo> ping me if you need anything else
[20:46] <kenvandine> thx for helping me find the crasher :)
[20:46] <kenvandine> you and your cert :)
[20:46] <BUGabundo> np
[20:46] <BUGabundo> not mine
[20:46] <BUGabundo> just the statusnet site I use
[20:46] <kenvandine> well, yeah :)
[21:36] <fta> jdstrand, which dist should i use for lucid? chromium -> l-security and gyp/libvpx/codecs -> l-proposed or l-security?
[21:36] <jdstrand> fta: all lucid-security
[21:36] <fta> ok
[21:37] <jdstrand> fta: they will all end up in lucid-proposed, but it makes it clear where they built and are supposed to go
[22:18] <fta> jdstrand, all done
[22:18] <jdstrand> fta: cool. where can I get them?
[22:19] <fta> jdstrand, it's in the bug
[22:19] <jdstrand> ah
[22:26] <fta> jdstrand, is it ok for you?
[22:27] <fta> maybe i should bump the priority for security updates, low seems weak and slow to move in the queue :(
[22:28] <fta> there's no point in me working on fast updates if it's to spend days waiting for approval
[22:52] <micahg> fta: are you talking about in the changelog?
[22:52] <fta> yes
[22:52] <micahg> fta: our builders don't use that
[22:52] <fta> they do
[22:52] <micahg> AFAIK
[22:52] <fta> i'm sure of
[22:52] <fta> it
[22:53] <micahg> I was told they don't, only debian does
[22:53]  * micahg could be wrong
[22:53] <fta> saw several people using that to bypass the queue on ppas
[22:54] <fta> i discussed with them and asked them to play fair, they stopped
[22:56] <micahg> hmmm, why was I told what I was told then
[22:56] <micahg> fta: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/BuildScores agrees with you :)
[22:57] <micahg> fta: builders are still relatively empty right now due to upload freeze
[22:58] <fta> uh?? nothing is building for me atm
[22:58] <fta> i mean, lots of stuff waiting
[22:58] <fta> https://edge.launchpad.net/~chromium-daily/+archive/stable/+packages
[22:59] <micahg> fta: oh, PPAs have a small backlog, I thought you were referring to the proposed stuff for the archive builders
[23:00] <fta> micahg, nope, those are waiting for approval, not for a build slot
[23:01] <fta> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
[23:02] <fta> but it seems there 1 week worth of packages waiting
[23:04] <micahg> wow 146 MB .orig.tar.gz and only 19k diff
[23:07] <fta> and it's a pruned tarball
[23:07] <fta> lzmified
[23:07] <micahg> still, it's huge
[23:07] <micahg> we should switch to lzma for the mozilla stuff
[23:07] <fta> so a pure tar.gz should really be huge
[23:08] <fta> iirc, lzma has been replaced by xy now
[23:09] <fta> wz
[23:09] <fta> grrr
[23:09] <fta> xz
[23:09] <micahg> yeah, I read something about that
[23:09] <fta> !info xz
[23:09] <ubot2> fta: Package xz does not exist in lucid
[23:09] <fta> !info lzma
[23:09] <ubot2> fta: lzma (source: lzma): Compression method of 7z format in 7-Zip program. In component main, is required. Version 4.43-14ubuntu2 (lucid), package size 58 kB, installed size 168 kB
[23:09] <fta> !info xz maverick
[23:09] <fta> ...
[23:09] <fta> .......
[23:09] <ubot2> fta: Package xz does not exist in maverick
[23:09] <fta> hm
[23:10] <micahg> !info xz-utils maverick
[23:10] <ubot2> micahg: xz-utils (source: xz-utils): XZ-format compression utilities. In component main, is required. Version 4.999.9beta+20100527-1 (maverick), package size 154 kB, installed size 356 kB
[23:10] <fta> well, at least, tar --lzma now uses xz for sure, breaking older tar
[23:11] <fta> hit that about a month ago
[23:12] <micahg> fta: yeah, we can't switch to that until after hardy is EOL, but we can at least switch to lzma
[23:13] <fta> sure
[23:13] <micahg> that should speed up the builds by a minute or 2
[23:13] <fta> it's just waaaay slower to compress
[23:29] <jdstrand> fta: sorry I missed your question. I was reviewing/uploading them
[23:30] <jdstrand> fta: they look good. I updated the bug
[23:30] <jdstrand> fta: thanks! :)
[23:31] <micahg> jdstrand: do the archive builders look at priority in the changelog?
[23:31] <jdstrand> fta: as for builds-- ubuntu-security* ppas have very high build scores, so they are building immediately
[23:33] <jdstrand> micahg: they didn't used to. but they afect things lightly these days. things building in the various security ppas aren't really affected by any of that (they have way high build scores
[23:33] <jdstrand> )
[23:33] <micahg> jdstrand: k
[23:33] <jdstrand> micahg: gotta head out though. have a great rest of the day :)
[23:33] <jdstrand> fta: you too, and thanks again :)
[23:34] <fta> enjoy your day, i'm heading to bed ;)


[00:53] <Jack_Sparrow> nixternal You areound perhaps
[01:50] <bazhang> wow part message from |[Petey]|
[01:51] <vorian> nice
[01:51] <vorian> if he can't figure out ubuntu... he's gonna go for gentoo?
[01:51] <bazhang> hehe
[02:36] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: thanks
[02:36] <Hobbsee> 85%....oh dear.
[02:37] <Seeker`> 85%?
[02:37] <Hobbsee> used of bandwidth for the month.
[03:48] <Baltazaar> I just started a new Ubuntu related channel, and have some questions... Am I in the right channel?
[03:49] <Seeker`> Baltazaar: What is the channel for?
[03:53] <Baltazaar> well... I feel that the #ubuntu channel gets very overcrowded with total newcomers, and that the language specific #ubuntu-xx is somewhat too "small" so I opened up #ubuntu-advanced, to be something "in between"
[03:54] <Baltazaar> English speaking
[03:55] <Baltazaar> what do you think about that?
[03:56] <Seeker`> I dont think it is a great idea personally
[03:57] <Seeker`> others may disagree, but there have been discussions about splitting #ubuntu before, and it was generally decided that it is a bad idea
[03:58] <Seeker`> whether a problem is "advanced" or not is totally subjective
[03:59] <Seeker`> you will get people joining from #ubuntu asking the same questions in both channels, because they aren't getting support quick enough in one
[03:59] <Seeker`> it splits the helpers between the channels, so ome problems will get missed
[04:01] <Pici> Baltazaar: How long did you spend in #ubuntu before deciding this?
[04:01] <Baltazaar> there is like 1000+ in #ubuntu and questions fly by, some is unnoticed. I realize that it is hard to decide if problems is advanced or not, but I miss a more technical competent channel
[04:02] <Baltazaar> well... I've been using it since 2005
[04:02] <Pici> I mean in the IRC channel.
[04:02] <Baltazaar> on and off for some time
[04:03] <Seeker`> Baltazaar: I suspect that everyone that joins #ubuntu think that their problem is "advanced" (i.e. cannot be solved by googling in < 1 min)
[04:04] <Seeker`> because if they could solve it by googling in < 1 minute, they probably would have done so already
[04:04] <Baltazaar> no. that's the problem
[04:04] <Seeker`> huh?
[04:05] <Baltazaar> many answers to the questions is in the faq on ubuntu.com
[04:06] <Baltazaar> it's like google gets priority 2
[04:06] <Baltazaar> #ubuntu 1
[04:06] <Seeker`> but most people will think that their problem is advanced
[04:06] <Baltazaar> that's a problem
[04:06] <Baltazaar> ;-)
[04:07] <Seeker`> and you try to enforce an "advanced" question only policy in your channel, you will spend most of your time redirecting users, rather than helping people
[04:07] <Baltazaar> true to some extent
[04:07] <Seeker`> and then people will get pissy with you, because you decide that their problem isn't advanced enough, and noone will respond to them in #ubuntu, so you should help them instead
[04:09] <Baltazaar> still think it's in it's place
[04:09] <Seeker`> how do you plan to enforce the "advanced questions only"?
[04:10] <Seeker`> who decides what is advanced
[04:11] <Baltazaar> well... I was thinking about explaining something in the topic
[04:11] <Seeker`> a) that doesn't answer either of the questions
[04:12] <Pici> Baltazaar: We have policies and procedures in place that need to be completed before a new channel is created within the #ubuntu namespace on Freenode.  In addition, something like this would be subject to the approval of the Ubuntu IRC Council.
[04:12] <Seeker`> b) can you define what counts as advanced definitively in 2 lines of text?
[04:12] <nixternal> Jack_Sparrow: I am here now
[04:12] <Seeker`> c) noone reads topics
[04:12] <Jack_Sparrow> May I have a quick pm
[04:13] <Seeker`> Baltazaar: ^
[04:13] <Baltazaar> thinking
[04:15] <Baltazaar> well, I see your point, but I'm pretty sure that you see mine as well
[04:16] <Seeker`> you still haven't answered the questions
[04:16] <Baltazaar> I know
[04:16] <Seeker`> and, as far as i'm concerned, the problems outweigh the benifits
[04:17] <Baltazaar> guess that must be a test-of-time thing
[04:18] <Seeker`> its a general splitting-up-#ubuntu-wont-work thing
[04:18] <Pici> The argument agaWe already had enough trouble near Hardy's release ferrying people into #ubuntu+1 to deal with beta/rc questions.
[04:18] <Pici> er, I guess I didnt finish writing that, oh well.
[04:18] <Seeker`> Pici: better luck next time :P
[04:19] <Seeker`> Baltazaar: It doesn't help convince me it is a good idea when you haven't answered the questions I asked 10 minutes ago
[04:20] <Baltazaar> I'm not planning to. I believe the only way to find out is learning by doing.
[04:20] <Pici> We're only being stubborn about this because the question comes up often enough and we decide the same way often enough that its not worth it.
[04:20] <Seeker`> Baltazaar: You need to have a point to start from to find otu by learning
[04:21] <Baltazaar> That would be ##ubuntu-advanced, then....
[04:21] <Seeker`> Baltazaar: I want to know how you actually plan on stopping people from asking non-advanced questions, and who decides what is non-advanced
[04:22] <Baltazaar> That would be a bot answer, directing them to #ubuntu, because the question is too general
[04:22] <Seeker`> how does the bot know what is an advanced question?
[04:22] <Jack_Sparrow> nixternal May I have a brief pm
[04:22] <Baltazaar> regex?
[04:22] <Seeker`> Do you happen to have a bot capable of understanding normal speech?
[04:23] <Seeker`> if so, can I have it, as I know of a couple of companies that would be very interested in it
[04:23] <Baltazaar> It would be a piece of work
[04:23] <Pici> *sigh*
[04:23] <Seeker`> and what exactly would these regex's look for?
[04:23] <Seeker`> Would you have the irc client set the "simple bit" when it sends text to the channel?
[04:24] <Pici> Seeker`: pm?
[04:24] <nixternal> Jack_Sparrow: sure
[04:24] <Seeker`> Pici: sure
[04:24] <Baltazaar> I'm starting to catch fire here...
[04:24] <Seeker`> sorry
[04:24] <Seeker`> I apologise if I am coming across as a bit hostile
[04:25] <Baltazaar> I was asking for opinions... I got that ++
[04:26] <Seeker`> my point is that doing it automatically is virtually impossible
[04:26] <Baltazaar> I know that
[04:26] <Seeker`> doing it manually would be time consuming
[04:27] <Seeker`> and there isnt really a way of stopping people from asking "simple" questions
[04:27] <Baltazaar> just that its so insanely many people out there using Ubuntu, and ubuntu.com lists #ubuntu as the help channel, so it gets flooded...
[04:28] <Seeker`> the idea of splitting #ubuntu has been discussed several times before, and each time it was decided that it wasn't feasible
[04:28] <Baltazaar> I hear you
[04:28] <Jack_Sparrow> We do try to triage then into networking, sound effects etc
[04:30] <Baltazaar> being in #ubuntu, makes me want to go back to #slackware, if you know what I mean. People in that camp knows about google, compiling etc....
[04:32] <Baltazaar> And you do get flamed if you ask a gg:"your question here"
[04:33] <Seeker`> Baltazaar: Isn't slackware aimed at more expereienced people though?
[04:35] <Pici> Baltazaar: You may want to have a gander at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/ if you havent already.
[04:35] <Pici> I'm taking off for the night.
[04:35] <Baltazaar> maybe so... I've been using it, but Ubuntu is nice, hassle-free (most of the time), and I like it. Just sad that the main irc channel is so totally on the other side of the planet
[04:39] <jdong> Baltazaar: most distributions with a self-validated barrier of knowledge have communities like that...
[04:39] <jdong> Baltazaar: I've dabbed in FreeBSD, Windows product team, and Gentoo before ubuntu.. and they all feel that way
[04:39] <jdong> it's a side effect of the barrier to entry
[04:40] <jdong> good thing or bad thing, it's too late at night for me to reflect
[04:40] <Baltazaar> sure...
[04:40] <jdong> FWIW the forums does have a separate section for beginners
[04:41] <Baltazaar> I feel that people prioritize like 1. #ubuntu 2. Forum 3. Google, and actually doing something, like reading error logs.
[04:42] <Baltazaar> if they know where to find them
[04:44] <Seeker`> but thats what people that are new to linux do
[04:44] <jdong> Baltazaar: that's a fairly logical/typical workflow...
[04:45] <Seeker`> thats what most people do, really
[04:45] <jdong> Baltazaar: not everyone is so technically inclined as to automatically know how to jump to #3
[04:45] <Seeker`> "typical" linux commnities tend to be different because most of the users are geeks / programmers
[04:45] <Seeker`> who know what to do to fix problems. The average person just wants a working computer
[04:47] <Seeker`> right, 4:45am = bedtime. Night.
[04:48] <Baltazaar> don't let the bugs bite
[05:48] <bazhang> Baltazaar, is there something else to discuss? this channel has a no idle policy.
[05:49] <Baltazaar> sorry... leaving...
[06:15] <lnxidiot> hi all
[06:16] <AtomicSpark> some guy named lnxidiot is complaining to #freenode that he was harassed by the ubuntu channels when he tried to get help
[06:16] <lnxidiot> help me dear god, the embarrassment!!!!!!!!!!!
[06:16] <bazhang> lnxidiot, what is the issue
[06:16] <AtomicSpark> i see no logs of this as i've been on the channels for a few hours now. just thought i'd let you know :P
[06:16] <AtomicSpark> oh. and look he followed me in here. lol.
[06:17] <bazhang> AtomicSpark, thanks we can take care of this; if that is all then there is no idling here
[06:17] <lnxidiot> can I please have some help with cdrecord?
[06:18] <bazhang> lnxidiot, come back to #ubuntu for that
[06:18] <lnxidiot> ok
[06:18] <bazhang> no idling here please lnxidiot
[06:27] <bazhang> !idle | lnxidiot
[06:48] <Myrtti> moin
[07:18] <Myrtti> http://ihasahotdog.com/2008/05/18/cute-puppy-pictures-wid-da-sound-a-muzic/ GOOOOOOOD morning #ubuntu-ops
[07:18] <Myrtti> and an EXCELLENT week.
[07:22] <jussi01> Hello Myrtti! :D
[07:23] <Myrtti> (this week is bound to be more excellent than the last since it's really difficult to get any worse from rock bottom, though I've seen those weeks too)
[07:23] <bazhang> haha
[07:23]  * jussi01 huggles Myrtti
[07:24] <bazhang> the real question is: when will ubottu be able to huggle again :)
[07:24] <jussi01> bazhang: never
[07:24] <bazhang> :0
[07:24] <Myrtti> :-> lifes little compromises
[07:24] <jussi01> nah, maybe Ill eable it again sometime...
[07:24] <jussi01> enable even
[07:25]  * jussi01 goes to look which plugin that was agian...
[07:25] <Myrtti> jussi01: don't do it
[07:25] <jussi01> Myrtti: hehe
[08:14] <mnepton> ompaul: you here?
[08:14] <mnepton> (UDS, not IRC)
[08:42] <Myrtti> I'm starting to think this tv7 feller is reincarnation of Asus-tek
[08:42] <bazhang> heh
[08:45] <Myrtti> and I'm not even joking
[08:46] <bazhang> never saw asus enough to compare
[09:02] <bazhang> I think I understand now
[09:03] <Myrtti> @btlogin
[09:04] <Myrtti> ip's don't match though
[09:05] <bazhang> odd; the actions do seem to though
[09:05] <Myrtti> okies
[09:05] <Myrtti> so that explains it
[09:06] <bazhang> aha
[09:23] <Amaranth> jussi01: Can we get the bot in the uds channels?
[09:23] <Amaranth> jussi01: at least #ubuntu-devel-summit and #uds-desktop
[09:24] <ompaul> #ubuntu-irc
[09:24] <ompaul> woops
[09:24] <ompaul> #uds-community
[09:27] <Amaranth> who else has access to the bot?
[09:27] <Myrtti> and here we have the lag...
[09:27] <Myrtti> moi
[09:28] <Amaranth> eep lag
[09:29] <Myrtti> so do you probably
[09:29] <Myrtti> @login
[09:29] <Myrtti> bad one
[09:29] <Myrtti> I'm suffering it too
[09:29] <Myrtti> which channels was it?
[09:30] <Myrtti> ompaul, Amaranth
[09:30] <Amaranth> #ubuntu-devel-summit, #uds-desktop, #uds-community
[09:31] <Myrtti> ubottu: join #ubuntu-devel-summit
[09:31] <Amaranth> yeah, i can't do it either :)
[09:31] <ompaul> there are a basically 6 tracks http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/uds-intrepid/
[09:31] <Amaranth> @join #ubuntu-devel-summit
[09:31] <ompaul> @btlogin
[09:31] <Amaranth> @whoami
[09:31] <Myrtti> @whoami
[09:31] <Myrtti> humdidumdi
[09:33] <Amaranth> yay AC cooling my laptop
[09:42] <mnepton> @whoibe
[09:46] <Amaranth> haha
[09:46] <Amaranth> yay coffee time
[09:46] <Amaranth> except they're still talking about pulseaudio in here
[09:47] <Myrtti> LjL: poit
[09:58] <jussi01> ubottu:  join #ubuntu-devel-summit
[09:58] <jussi01> ubottu:  join #uds-desktop
[09:58] <Myrtti_> woo, full 7 minutes of lag before dropping off
[09:58] <jussi01> ubottu:  join #uds-community
[09:58] <jussi01> heya Myrtti
[11:40] <Myrtti> oh lawd
[11:41] <Tm_T> yes dear?
[11:41] <ompaul> he has a reason ....
[11:41] <Myrtti> fcol
[11:41] <Myrtti> that tv7 feller really starts to tick me off soon
[11:41] <Tm_T> hahah
[11:41] <Myrtti> he's just like asustek
[11:41]  * Tm_T ticles Myrtti
[11:42] <Myrtti> though a bit more $adjective, perhaps
[11:52] <ompaul> !didntwork
[11:52] <ompaul> !did not work
[11:52] <bazhang> haxt
[11:52] <jussi01> !doesntwork | ompaul
[11:52] <ompaul> !didnotwork
[11:52] <ompaul> jussi01, thanks
[11:53] <jussi01> :)
[11:53] <Myrtti> !didnotwork is <alias> doesntwork
[11:53] <bazhang> telling me to stfu
[11:53] <jussi01> Myrtti: make didnotwork something first
[11:54] <Myrtti> !didnotwork is <reply> foo
[11:54] <Myrtti> !no didnotwork is <alias> doesntwork
[11:54] <jussi01> !didnotwork
[11:54] <Myrtti> bazhang: in pm?
[11:54] <jussi01> :)
[11:55] <bazhang> in channel; in PM was the full nine yards
[11:59] <haxt> Anyone alive?
[11:59] <bazhang> yes haxt how can we help you
[12:00] <haxt> Why are power-stricken people always quick to gun, when they are the ones that are offtopic?
[12:00] <haxt> When someone is helping three different people at once and he gets kicked from #ubuntu, that really makes him want to come back and help you know that
[12:01] <haxt> All of ubuntu staff should be proud of an operator who boots someone ACTIVELY helping as he was booted.
[12:01] <Myrtti> your language was unacceptable
[12:01] <Myrtti> period
[12:01] <Myrtti> we appreciate your helping the users
[12:01] <haxt> First off, a single acronym once, WHEN I DIDN'T KNOW is not unacceptable.
[12:01] <haxt> I'm not done.
[12:01] <haxt> Secondly, it was in a PM.
[12:01] <Myrtti> funny, my lastlog shows the acronym too
[12:01] <haxt> And that has nothign to do with my needed booting in a chan.
[12:02] <Myrtti> and I don't see you pm'in me
[12:02] <bazhang> it was in channel, and after asking you to stop offtopic chat
[12:02] <haxt> THERE WAS NO OFFTOPIC CHAT
[12:02] <haxt> WHAT ARE YOU TAKLING ABOUT
[12:02] <haxt> LOL
[12:02] <haxt> Dude can you read english?
[12:02] <ompaul> !shout
[12:02] <Myrtti> haxt: nownow
[12:02] <ompaul> haxt, be nice
[12:02] <haxt> Well I've said it about 10 times now.
[12:02] <haxt> And he keeps saying "offtopic chat".
[12:02] <haxt> What?!?! HOW?!?! There wasn't any.
[12:03] <haxt> It's mind-boggling how someone NOT typing in the channel can come out of nowhere and claim offtopic chat.
[12:03] <haxt> ompaul: it's an honest question.
[12:03] <haxt> I am seriously like, dumbfounded.
[12:03] <Myrtti> fine
[12:03] <haxt> I am to think the ubuntu userbase is experienced, and educated.
[12:03] <haxt> Like me.
[12:04] <Myrtti> then sit down and relax and someone will try to explain it to you
[12:04] <Myrtti> since you are, as you said, dumbfounded
[12:04] <haxt> Alright, please do.
[12:04] <Myrtti> as I said
[12:04] <Myrtti> we really appreciate you helping people in #ubuntu
[12:05] <bazhang> die-hard hackers use ubuntu; when I put on my black hat I use knoppix
[12:05] <Myrtti> it's nice to see people getting helped and giving help in return
[12:05] <haxt> Not to interrupt, but why did bazhang just paste that? It's not even the whole line and is entirely out of context.
[12:05] <Myrtti> but we as ops have to take care that the people in need of help arent' confused with chitchat that isn't directly connected to ubuntu support
[12:06] <haxt> Okay, well that never occurred.
[12:06] <bazhang> when being asked to stay ontopic you said some unacceptable language as well
[12:06] <Myrtti> theres too many users and too many ubuntu newbies and even more, too many irc newbies to allow that
[12:06] <Myrtti> bazhang: ssssh
[12:07] <haxt> Myrtti: True, However he was the one who began the offtopic rant. I was helping someone, they asked me a qusetion about ubuntu recursive hidden wildcards.
[12:07] <haxt> And what did I do but tell him I don't use Fedora, which he referenced to not having to use it
[12:07] <haxt> and I said to him the two linux distros i do use, as to what i could help him with
[12:08] <haxt> and said that's it's fine, he didn't need to use the wildcard he just used /src
[12:08] <haxt> bazhang came out of NOWHERE
[12:08] <haxt> and was like !ot | haxt
[12:08] <Myrtti> well then we have a situation of that reflects the "Laws of communication"
[12:08] <haxt> No./
[12:08] <Myrtti> the amount of misunderstanding is proportional to the amount of communication
[12:08] <haxt> I believe that you have poor judgement in your staff.
[12:08] <haxt> No.
[12:08] <haxt> Not at all.
[12:08] <haxt> Myrtti: I'm sorry I can see you are trying to protect him.
[12:09] <haxt> I don't really care at all about this situation. I just think for YOU.
[12:09] <Myrtti> no, I'm trying to mediate
[12:09] <haxt> I am saying, ubuntu has a good name
[12:09] <ompaul> haxt, the first part of this is important for this
[12:09] <haxt> I don't want to see it tarnished by poor staff.
[12:09] <Myrtti> you're both getting pissed of for a minor reason
[12:09] <ompaul> !guidlines
[12:09] <ompaul> !guidelines
[12:09] <haxt> Myrtii: I'm not pissed off.
[12:10] <haxt> I could care less about bazhang.
[12:10] <Myrtti> well agitated then
[12:10] <haxt> I am here to talk to you about your staff.
[12:10] <haxt> You are anyone that has the ears on staff.
[12:10] <haxt> I like ubuntu, and want to help it's users.
[12:10] <Myrtti> our staff is voluteers as much as you are
[12:10] <haxt> I agree with it's message.
[12:10] <haxt> Yeah well you need to close the gates.
[12:10] <haxt> Community-driven doesn't mean everyone needs ops.
[12:11] <ompaul> and not everyone has ops
[12:11] <haxt> ChanServ grants + bazhang
[12:11] <haxt> +o*
[12:11] <haxt> that's ops k
[12:11] <haxt> Alright, whatever.
[12:11] <Myrtti> haxt: that's because he is an op
[12:11] <Myrtti> not because anyone is
[12:11] <haxt> I'm done. Okay. okay.
[12:11] <haxt> You guys don't get it.
[12:11] <Myrtti> I think i do
[12:12] <haxt> What then?
[12:12] <Myrtti> What then
[12:12] <haxt> You don't see.
[12:12] <haxt> lol
[12:12] <haxt> All I came here to say.
[12:12] <Myrtti> I think you're not getting us...
[12:12] <Myrtti> but do go on
[12:12] <haxt> Getting "us"?
[12:12] <haxt> See, you already have invisible lines drawn, even though you say ops are peopel like me.
[12:12] <haxt> lol
[12:13] <haxt> Anyways.
[12:13] <haxt> Like I way saying before you interrupted me.
[12:13] <ompaul> haxt,  perhaps you would like to read the guidelines doc and associated documents you might find it interesting
[12:13] <haxt> ompaul: you have no idea that i have read them are are reading them. are you vnc'd to me? can you see my desktop? can you view my history? no.
[12:13] <haxt> Anyways, AGAIN interrupted.
[12:14] <haxt> I was trying to say.
[12:14] <haxt> I was fully functioning as a productive member of the channel #ubuntu
[12:14] <haxt> and out of nowhere
[12:14] <haxt> bazhang came out
[12:14] <Myrtti> yes, we heard that already
[12:14] <haxt> and decided to power-trip and act like an authoritarian.
[12:14] <haxt> And that makes YOU
[12:14] <haxt> not just bazhang
[12:14] <haxt> look bad
[12:14] <haxt> to not just me
[12:15] <haxt> but those other peopel that i was helping
[12:15] <haxt> that pm
[12:15] <Myrtti> haxt: he's an op, watching over the flow of the discussion
[12:15] <haxt> d me and said "WTF?"
[12:15] <haxt> no he wasn't
[12:15] <haxt> lol
[12:15] <haxt> that's the thing
[12:15] <haxt> he wasn't watching
[12:15] <haxt> if he was he would've seen the conversation
[12:15] <Myrtti> oh for crying out loud
[12:15] <Myrtti> so now you've got vnc to his desktop?
[12:15] <haxt> wow. ok. im done with you kids.
[12:15] <haxt> later
[12:15] <Tm_T> ...
[12:16] <jdong> lol
[12:16] <gnomefreak> for some reason i think i remember him from a while ago
[12:16] <Myrtti> I couldn't get even the half of what I tried to tell him through
[12:16]  * wgrant stifles a laugh.
[12:16] <gnomefreak> that nick is very fammilar to me
[12:16] <jdong> Myrtti: yeah 3-word delimited sentences don't flow well
[12:16] <jdong> for some silly reason
[12:16] <jdong> I dont know
[12:16] <jdong> exactly why.
[12:18] <haxt> It's just funny. There were about 3 people helping in the channel, including me, for about the last 3 hours.  Well now I guess you have those 2 guys and bazhang all of a sudden is now helping people in his broken english. What a good substitute.
[12:18] <haxt> Goodbye freenode.!
[12:18] <jussi01> right...
[12:18] <Tm_T> oki
[12:19] <jussi01> So when did we get a promotion to "staff" ?
[12:19] <Tm_T> we are channel staff?
[12:19] <jussi01> Hrm... I thought the word was operators
[12:20] <Tm_T> I thought too
[12:20] <jussi01> arent staff the guys from freenode?
[12:20] <jussi01> (and gals)
[12:20] <Tm_T> network staff yes
[12:23] <PriceChild> @btlogin
[12:28] <Myrtti> !myrtti
[12:28] <Myrtti> sigh
[12:29] <jussi01> Myrtti: I love it!
[12:30] <Pici> *sigh*
[12:30] <Myrtti> it's a true prayer that I sometimes recite
[12:30]  * Pici just got done reading the backscroll from last night.
[12:32] <Hobbsee> mmm.  fruitcakes.
[12:32] <Hobbsee> gotta love the irc variety.
[12:32] <bazhang> haha
[12:33] <Hobbsee> (in general, not that guy in particular)
[12:39] <Myrtti> mmmm raspberry
[12:39] <Myrtti> /me goes to ransack her jam stash
[12:47] <PriceChild> Anyone heard anything from paladine lately wrt irseek?
[12:48] <PriceChild> i gave him the page i wrote a few viewpoints on but haven't heard anything since
[12:48] <Pici> I have heard nothink.
[12:58] <Hobbsee> guys, just be greatful we didn't get the maggot.  Hopefully he'll never find #ubuntu.
[12:58] <Hobbsee> ( http://rafb.net/p/G7CRIk57.html for context, among others)
[12:58] <bazhang> hehe
[12:58] <bazhang> that is a great story
[12:58] <Hobbsee> and the noobfarm quote from last night
[13:00] <Hobbsee> bazhang: yes....
[13:00] <bazhang> was just thinking about it in fact; weird
[13:02] <Myrtti> LjL: poit
[15:36] <PriceChild> Morning Jack_Sparrow
[15:37] <Jack_Sparrow> Back later, need to go on my morning forced march... Dr's orders
[15:47] <jdavies> PriceChild: -ca under attack
[15:48] <jdavies> !staff | Russian's in -ca again - help!
[15:48] <PriceChild> one mo
[15:49] <jdavies> PriceChild: quick, +m it
[16:54] <Myrtti> 18:48 < no0tic> hi all, I left the ubuntu-it irc team and passed all contacts to jester-, he is  now the new point of reference for the italian group. Unfortunately he doesn't  speak english
[16:54] <Myrtti>  no0tic> Myrtti, yes, there's twilight (an ubuntu-it loco councillor) that is a co-admin
[16:54] <Myrtti>           and the alternate contact for the main channel
[18:00] <Seeker`> why has no0tic left?
[18:02] <bazhang> wow angry away message from linuxkid
[23:37] <Pici> idiot
[23:38] <Seeker`> Pici: What about prefix's language?
[23:38] <Tm_T> indeed
[23:42] <Pici> !prayer
[23:50] <Pici> Wait, this isn't AOL?
[23:50] <Seeker`> PriceChild: Are questions invisible on AOL?
[23:50] <PriceChild> aol, aim, w/e
[23:51] <PriceChild> aol chat rooms?
[23:51] <Pici> I remember those
[23:51]  * Seeker` hasn't been in an aol chat room
[23:59] <PriceChild> I'm talking with matthew_ in pm btw


[09:07] <rafael_carreras> Catalan LoCo Team starts with Ubuntu GLobal Jam
[11:44] <czajkowski> yay
[15:41] <KitchenerJam> Hi everyone! Is there an IRC channel or Google Hangout for UbuntuGlobalJam?
[15:46] <smartboyhw> Um, no.
[15:47] <smartboyhw> czajkowski, coolbhavi SergioMeneses: Maybe there should be a Hangout or IRC channel next time
[15:47] <coolbhavi> smartboyhw, what happened?
[15:47] <smartboyhw> coolbhavi, KitchenerJam was asking if there is an IRC channel or Google Hangout for the Ubuntu Global Jam
[15:48] <SergioMeneses> smartboyhw, hangout?
[15:48] <smartboyhw> SergioMeneses, don't tell me you don't know what's that-.-
[15:48] <SergioMeneses> I do
[15:48] <smartboyhw> Hangouts
[15:49] <coolbhavi> smartboyhw, you can still login to the locoteam channel in the particular region and participate in UGJ
[15:49] <SergioMeneses> smartboyhw, jams are local events, if any LoCo wants to use hangouts I dont see the problem
[15:50] <coolbhavi> KitchenerJam, which area are you living in?
[15:50] <coolbhavi> SergioMeneses, +1
[15:50] <smartboyhw> coolbhavi, SergioMeneses I think you misunderstood, KitchenerJam wants a general IRC channel/G+ Hangouts for everyone, not for the LoCo event in his country (at least, that's what I thought)
[15:51] <KitchenerJam> Thanx smartboyhw coolbhavi SergioMeneses !  I'm in #ubuntu-ca and #ubuntu-ca-kw
[15:52] <KitchenerJam> But yes, I'm after a general channel for a _global_ jam
[15:52] <KitchenerJam> (this is BobJonkman, BTW)
[15:52] <SergioMeneses> smartboyhw, there is not exits, a general channel like #something-jam
[15:52] <SergioMeneses> KitchenerJam, oh
[15:53] <SergioMeneses> KitchenerJam, some LoCos are working on global jam using their IRC channels but there is not a general channel
[15:54] <smartboyhw> Technically, this IS a global channel;0
[15:54] <smartboyhw> ;)
[15:54] <coolbhavi> yes since they local events, many locos use their IRC channels to jam :-)
[15:54] <KitchenerJam> OK, we can use #ubuntu-locoteams
[15:54] <KitchenerJam> It was kinda quiet in here anyway
[15:55] <SergioMeneses> KitchenerJam, smartboyhw that is right but there is not a jam right now - thats my point
[15:55] <SergioMeneses> :)
[15:55] <SergioMeneses> but we can do it next time
[15:55] <SergioMeneses> or you can share a proposal about it :)
[15:56] <coolbhavi> smartboyhw, KitchenerJam I think this channel was intended to answer and support queries of loco teams but yes you can share your thoughts too on the lc mailing list :)
[15:59] <SergioMeneses> commandoline, KitchenerJam smartboyhw but it is an interesting idea
[15:59] <SergioMeneses> :D
[15:59] <SergioMeneses> I like it
[16:07] <KitchenerJam> I'll make the proposal on the LC mailing list.
[16:07] <SergioMeneses> KitchenerJam, send it to loco-contact as well
[16:16] <KitchenerJam> SergioMeneses: Will do
[16:18] <SergioMeneses> KitchenerJam, perfect! thanks a lot
[16:18] <SergioMeneses> smartboyhw, ↑↑↑
[16:18] <smartboyhw> SergioMeneses, :)
[16:37] <BobJonkman> Hey Everybodeee! Got some pictures at the KitchenerJam  http://pix.ie/ubuntuca/album/475387/detailed
[16:38] <SergioMeneses> BobJonkman, great!
[16:43] <KitchenerJam> Aruna will be uploading some more shortly
[17:54] <BobJonkman> A few more pics: https://twitter.com/chaslinux/status/378910396020953088/photo/1 and https://twitter.com/chaslinux/status/378911062307123200/photo/1
[18:40] <czajkowski> BobJonkman: cool


[01:30] <bigjools> g'day thumper
[01:30] <thumper> hi bigjools
[01:30] <bigjools> talking to yourself all morning and I felt sorry for you
[01:31] <thumper> :)
[08:03] <jtv> fwereade: can I just run another refactoring by you that might slim down the providers a bit more and save us some time?
[08:04] <fwereade> jtv, sure, but I'm in a meeting at the moment
[08:04] <jtv> OK, I'll hang on
[08:04] <fwereade> jtv, so expect slightly slowresponses
[08:25] <jam> rvba: I think I know why lbox is creating a new Rietveld review when you submit, though I don't know how to fix it. Specifically, lbox edits the description of the merge to include the link to codereview..., Your proposals are getting a new comment, but *not* getting the description edited.
[08:27] <rvba> jam: that's right, when I run 'lbox propose' it spits out an error ("Failed to update merge proposal").
[08:30] <fwereade> jtv, I'm here now
[08:30] <jtv> fwereade: argh, just going into my standup!   Got time in half an hour?
[08:30] <fwereade> jtv, sure :)
[08:31] <jtv> Thanks!
[08:31] <TheMue> jam: as I didn't follow rog with the upgrade stuff, could you pls give a short intro into it to me?
[08:31] <jam> TheMue: basic summary, bootstrap a 1.10 system, add a couple of units to it. Then try to upgrade it to 1.11
[08:32] <TheMue> jam: and currently no issue nor card where he noted the problems? ok ...
[08:32] <jam> TheMue: so I think the test can be : juju bootstrap; juju status; juju deploy mysql; # wait for it to run; juju upgrade-juju --upload-tools
[08:33] <jam> TheMue: I believe it was pretty ad hoc testing. It came up in a meeting, so he poked at it.
[08:33] <fwereade> jam, TheMue, you should check 1.10 agents bootstrapped both with 1.10 and with trunk, upgrading to trunk in each case
[08:34] <jam> fwereade: so juju-1.10 bootstrap && juju-1.10 deploy && juju-trunk upgrade-juju --upload-tools
[08:34] <jam> as well as juju-trunk for all of those, correct?
[08:34] <TheMue> fwereade: yep, will do
[08:35] <jam> rvba: the only thing that comes to mind is when you gave lbox permissions to run as your account, it somehow didn't get the right perms. But that doesn't quite make sense, since it can post for you, I would think that means it can change things for you as well.
[08:39] <fwereade> jam, yes
[08:40] <jam> fwereade: thoughts on a name for State.Watch? that watches the same document as WatchEnvironConfig but uses a NotifyWatcher rather than putting the content into Changes()?
[08:40] <jam> current best guess was "WatchForEnvironConfigChanges" which is quite a bit more verbose than other watcher.s
[08:41] <fwereade> jam, that doesn't sound too awful -- because I think it'll be becoming plain WatchEnvironConfig once we get rid of the current implementation
[08:42] <jam> fwereade: should I be pushing to make all current WatchEnvironConfig callers do it? It seemed much larger than trying to get this other bit done.
[08:42] <jam> fwereade: fwiw, I can't see any direct testing of WatchEnvironConfig seeing changes to the environment.
[08:42] <fwereade> jam, yes but not today -- parallel implementation gets us where we need quicker
[08:42] <fwereade> jam, ha
[08:42] <jam> there is WaitForEnviron stuff in workers
[08:43] <jam> well, maybe state_test.go.
[08:43] <fwereade> jam, yeah, that looks like it does roughly the right thing
[08:45] <jam> fwereade: alternatively, I only really need WatchAPIVersion which could secretly do environ config underneath
[08:46] <fwereade> jam, sure, that'd be what you expose over the api
[08:46] <jam> fwereade: right, which means it is what I could expose on State
[08:46] <jam> and assert in the test suite
[08:46] <jam> and the implementation would be on the Environ Config doc.
[08:46] <fwereade> jam, but in state I'd rather name it after what it does today, ie watch everything in the config
[08:47] <fwereade> jam, we can filter better later behind the api
[08:47] <fwereade> jam,sane?
[08:47] <jam> fwereade: do you think we would filter in the API, or filter in the future watcher?
[08:48] <fwereade> jam, I *suspect* we'll have cause to do smarter filtering directly in state
[08:48] <fwereade> jam, but I'm agnostic really
[08:49] <jam> fwereade: from what I've read in the code, the only way to set the agent-version is to rewrite the hole Config dict. Does that match your understanding ?
[08:49] <fwereade> jam, yeah, afraid so
[08:49] <jam> (environs/jujutest/livetests.go setAgentVersion is the only place I've seen it)
[08:51] <fwereade> jam, honestly I don't actually think agent-version fits very well with the rest of environ config anyway,it's been a bit of a dumping ground
[08:52] <fwereade> jam, but as usual until it's obscured behind the api we're stuck with it
[08:55] <mgz_> go 1.1.1 for saucy built okay: https://launchpad.net/~james-page/+archive/golang-backports
[08:56] <jam> fwereade: one of the tests I'm cribbing from (state/unit_test.go TestWatchConfigSettings) has an assert that changing an object 2 times results in only OneChange.
[08:56] <jam> When I try that on an EntityWatcher, it fails
[08:56] <jam> should I be asserting that or just not worry about it
[08:56] <fwereade> jam, that is surprising to me, I think it deserves a little bit of worry
[08:57] <fwereade> jam, paste me the test you have maybe?
[08:57] <jam> fwereade: I might have just been doing it wrong. Testing again now looks like it is doing the right thing... :(
[08:58] <fwereade> jam, ok, cool :)
[09:04] <jamespage> fwereade, mgz, jam: backport of golang 1.1.1 for 12.04->13.10 - we need to put that somewhere more official for the juju-core PPA builds
[09:04] <jamespage> https://launchpad.net/~james-page/+archive/golang-backports
[09:18] <jtv> fwereade: got time for a hangout?
[09:19] <fwereade> jtv, sure
[09:20] <fwereade> jtv, would you start one please?
[09:20] <jtv> Working on it...  whom do I invite?
[09:21] <jtv> Found you!
[09:22] <jtv> fwereade: G+ says it looks like you aren't available.  It does that a lot for me.
[09:22] <jtv> Maybe I invited your wrong account after all.
[09:22] <fwereade> jtv, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/51118536cbb3ae1f18ea3cec8ef8be231497d69b?hl=en
[09:22] <jtv> Thanks
[09:54] <jtv> fwereade: buggeration...  once again the dummy provider is the *only* provider that doesn't play along.  I'll have to go with a "utility" Bootstrap.
[09:54] <jtv> A shame, because there already is an environs.Bootstrap and I can't just move functionality in there.
[09:55] <jtv> Although...  I guess with the dummy provider I can just see whether the changes will actually break tests.
[09:55] <fwereade> jtv, I would not object to a type switch that accommodates strange providers that want their own Bootstrap method
[09:55] <fwereade> jtv, even if doing that *just* for the dummy kinda smells
[09:55] <jtv> Positively reeks.  :)
[09:56] <fwereade> well put :)
[09:57] <fwereade> jtv, curse that dummy provider... it doesn't even properly do bootstrap *anyway* AFAIR
[09:57] <fwereade> hey ho
[09:57] <jtv> Well in that case there's hope.
[09:57] <fwereade> jtv, IIRC it has a bunch of stuff copy-pasted and then diverged from jujud bootstrap-state
[09:58]  * fwereade wonders if there's something nearby he can set fire to on general principles
[10:02] <jtv> Good thinking.  Fire helps.  Fire cleanses.
[10:43] <jam> jamespage: what does "somewhere more official" mean?
[10:43] <jam> Do you want it under ~juju/+archive/golang or something like that?
[10:43] <jamespage> something like that yes
[10:45] <jam> jamespage: Can I just copy the ones you already have?
[10:45] <mgz_> you can.
[10:46] <fwereade> jam, hey, tag vs id in the api -- does that phrase cause any immediate response?
[10:46] <fwereade> jam, some places it seems we use tags, some places ids
[10:46] <jam> fwereade: tag == Machine.Tag() or Unit.Tag()
[10:46] <jam> so you can pass one to be for any agent
[10:46] <jam> Id can only be used for a specific one in context
[10:47] <jam> fwereade: so I would use Tag unless you have a different reason to
[10:47] <fwereade> jam, sure -- I guess I'm asking why we use ids anywhere
[10:47] <jam> though it is "ok" to do stuff like GetMachine(id) because you have the context
[10:47] <jam> fwereade: hysterical raisons ?
[10:47] <fwereade> jam, that kinda works against the possibility of common reuse though
[10:48] <jam> fwereade: so IMO, I would use Tag unless you really needed something else. As tag => id is lossless
[10:48] <jam> and Id => Tag can only be done with external context.
[10:49] <fwereade> jam, technically it works both ways actually, but we're not sure it will always do so
[10:50] <jam> fwereade: from what I've seen of Id it is just an integer in a string
[10:50] <jam> Is unit Ids different?
[10:50] <fwereade> jam, or unit name, or service name, or...
[10:51] <fwereade> jam, machine, service, unit, user
[10:51] <jam> fwereade, mgz: When you get a chance, feedback on https://codereview.appspot.com/10891044/ will help me get the Worker up and running.
[10:52] <jam> fwereade: I'll note that today we have: globalKey which gives essentially the same result as Tag() except it is private and only the Presence code seems to use it
[10:52] <jam> Tag() which gives a unique and segmented identifier, but no code to actuall y invert any given Tag back into its original type
[10:52] <jam> (something that takes a Tag and gives you a UNit or Machine)
[10:52] <jam> and Id
[10:52] <fwereade> jam, globalKey is used in any collection that holds data associated with more than one type of entity
[10:52] <jam> which is pretty context sensitive, and nobody wants to inspect it.
[10:52] <jam> fwereade: but why did we reinvent globalKey calling it Tag?
[10:53] <fwereade> jam, globalKey is (1) internal and (2) a bit more complex -- relation units have globalkeys for the settings and scope collections, which don't correspond to actual entities themselves
[10:54] <fwereade> jam, tag solves roughly the same problem, but in a human-readable and externally visible context
[10:54] <jam> fwereade: anyway, all the API stuff *I* wrote uses Tag. I'd like to see more of that in the API because we defined Tag as being namespaced and unique.
[10:54] <thumper> jtv: please wait
[10:54] <fwereade> jam, great, +1
[10:54] <thumper> jtv: with the bootstrap refactoring
[10:54] <thumper> jtv: as I have some in progress
[10:55] <thumper> jtv: that I have been using wtih local provider
[10:55] <fwereade> jam, in that case I think I will be smacking some of the machiner bits around so I can move existing code into common and reuse it
[10:55] <jam> https://codereview.appspot.com/10891044/ adds the WatchForEnvironConfigChanges and hooks the UpgraderAPI to use it. Which is the last piece the actual Worker should need. Which is the next step I want to finish off.
[10:55] <fwereade> jam, dropping things like MachineLifeResults when they could just be LifeResults etc
[10:56] <jam> fwereade: sounds good to me.
[10:56] <fwereade> jam, great, thanks for the sanity check
[10:56] <jam> I was fortunate that I knew what I was working on was going to be for both Uniters and Machiners so I had to be agnostic :)
[10:56] <fwereade> jam, cool
[10:56] <jam> Though it doesn't, today, support Uniters because of that lack of Tag => agent lookup mechanism.
[10:57] <fwereade> jam, hmm, I think that does exist somewhere actually... just a mo
[10:59] <fwereade> jam, state.go:562?
[10:59] <fwereade> jam, specifically State.Authenticator, a few lines up, which uses it
[11:02] <fwereade> jam, hey, do we have a meeting now? I thought I saw it on my calendar this am but it seems to bemissing now
[11:02] <jam> fwereade: thanks, I'll keep that in mind when I enable Uniters in Upgrader. It probably holds all I need for the "are you allowed to do this" check.
[11:02] <jam> fwereade: I saw mramm mark it as removed.
[11:02] <fwereade> jam, yeah, should be
[11:02] <jam> I think he was off
[11:02] <jam> so he just cancelled it
[11:02] <fwereade> jam, ah, I thought he was coming in for it
[11:03] <fwereade> jam, still, my nose still has the same amount of skin
[11:03] <jam> fwereade: he was coming in for the "early" meetings. Apparently 11:00UTC isn't early enough.
[11:09] <mgz_> jam: reviewed
[11:13] <jam> fwereade: I don't see an exposed API in state/api/*/* that actually runs a Watcher. And the one in state/api/watcher.NotifyWatcher requires a State object.
[11:13] <jam> fwereade: am I missing something?
[11:13] <jam> I have the feeling the naming in the API is my fault
[11:13] <fwereade> jam, just a mo,let me look
[11:14] <jam> and that is the "this was copied out of state/watcher.go" without someone actually thinking it through.
[11:14] <fwereade> jam, it's a *State, not a *state.State
[11:14] <fwereade> jam, yay helpful naming
[11:15] <fwereade> jam, not sure it is your fault though
[11:15] <jam> fwereade: well I renamed it from EntityWatcher
[11:15] <fwereade> jam, I think that's a good thing though?
[11:15] <jam> but probably should have gone the route of making it an interface and leaving it an entity watcher.
[11:15] <jam> fwereade: well, it directly calls Watch inside of the loop() function
[11:15] <jam> which means I can't reuse the code for WatchAPIVersion
[11:16] <jam> fwereade: and also, no code actually calls newNotifyWatcher
[11:16] <jam> so I'm probably fine changing it :)
[11:16] <jam> fwereade: my thought was that the client API for Upgrader would be
[11:17] <fwereade> jam, I think I'm missing something myself, surely we only need one implementation client-side for anything server side with a `Changes() <-chan struct{}`?
[11:17] <jam> Upgrader.WatchAPIVersion(agentTag string) (state.NotifyWatcher, error)
[11:17] <jam> though that could certainly be api.NotifyWatcher
[11:17] <jam> because we don't want to expose "state" things in the API
[11:17] <fwereade> jam, yeah, I think it's just a NotifyWatchResults or whatever it's called?
[11:18] <jam> fwereade: well, the API on the wire returns you a NotifyWatcherId which is the handle to the specific watcher running in the API server.
[11:18] <jam> that comes from NotifyWatchResults
[11:18] <jam> you then need to turn that into something that calls Changes or Next or whatever.
[11:18] <jam> and I'd like WatchAPIVersion to do that translation for you.
[11:18] <fwereade> jam, I think that's what the state/api watcher code does
[11:19] <fwereade> jam, ah, hmm, that's still very much domain-object-centric, though, isn't it
[11:19] <jam> fwereade: it *does* but with a caveat, that it also   Call("Machine", "", "Watch", "0") for you before
[11:19] <jam> at the beginning of loop()
[11:20] <jam> While what I want is to hand something the NotifyWatcherId I already have.
[11:20] <fwereade> jam, gaah, I see
[11:20] <jam> fwereade: which I could just rip out the code as it exists, since nobody actually calls newNotifyWatcher.
[11:21] <jam> or instantiates an api.NotifyWatcher.
[11:21] <fwereade> jam, yeah, I'm pretty sure we should be constructing those with watcher ids
[11:21] <fwereade> jam, or perhaps, for clarity/consistency's sake, with a NotifyWatchResult
[11:22] <fwereade> jam, because a StringsWatchResult will need the ancillary first-event-contents data, even if there isnone for the notify watcher
[11:22] <jam> fwereade: sure. Though looking at the code, I don't think it works today.
[11:23] <jam> ah nm
[11:23] <fwereade> jam, (btw, domain-object-centricity on watcher bothers me very little, don't go fixing that unless there's a clear reason to)
[11:23] <jam> I thought it was blocking on something ,but it is blocking in a defer x
[11:23] <jam> so only on exit.
[11:23] <fwereade> jam, cool
[11:23] <jam> fwereade: well domain-object-centricty means I can't reuse it for WatchAPIVersion because you don't call Upgrader.Watch.
[11:25] <jam> But I don't really see why it needs to happen in loop() anyway, which would mean I could pull that small bit out and into either a different newDomainNotifyWatcher, or something of the sort.
[12:24] <jam> fwereade: what is the syntax for go channel receives. If you do "_, ok := <-c.Watcher.Changes()" but there is nothing in the channel, won't that still return ok = True?
[12:26] <jam> sorry, I mean it will return, but with ok= False
[12:32] <jam> fwereade: I'm trying to use your NotifyWatcherC code for the API stuff, but it is failing because it is getting an ok=false result. And I'm trying to figure out why it shouldn't return at all.
[12:34] <TheMue> ouch
[12:34] <TheMue> upgrade from 1.10 to trunk terminates all instances
[12:34] <jam> TheMue: it is supposed to restart the agents, but it is killing the AMI instances?
[12:34] <jam> that doesn't sound quite right :)
[12:35] <TheMue> jam: yes, the instances are terminating :(
[12:35] <jam> TheMue: could it be "the agents don't seem to be alive, so let me kill the instances" ?
[12:36] <TheMue> jam: dunno
[12:36] <TheMue> jam: during trunk to trunk it worked, with upgrading the agents
[12:37] <jam> TheMue: go question. When does "foo, ok := <-chan" return false for ok, only when chan is closed?
[12:38] <TheMue> jam: imho yes, passing a blocked but open channel needs a select with a default
[12:38] <TheMue> jam: will take a look
[12:39] <TheMue> jam: http://golang.org/ref/spec#Receive_operator => when closed or empty
[12:40] <TheMue> jam: eh, closed and (!) empty
[12:41] <jam> TheMue: well closed *and* empty, not closed *or* empty
[12:44] <TheMue> jam: yes, what I corrected
[12:44] <jam> TheMue: yeah. The issue is that I'm seeing the channel be closed, but it should still be alive and waiting for more stuff.
[12:44] <jam> so I'm trying to sort that out.
[12:48] <fwereade> jam, sorry, was eating
[12:48] <TheMue> jam: where?
[12:49] <fwereade> jam, paste me maybe?
[12:49] <TheMue> jam: foo, ok := <-chan blocks, ok is only false if the chan is closed
[12:49] <jam> fwereade: currently neck deep in it, and thinking the api.Watcher code wasn't sending the fields in the right location, causing the channel to become immediately killed.
[12:50] <TheMue> jam: but a select with a default allows to pass the receiving when there's nothing in the channel
[12:50] <jam> right
[12:50] <jam> TheMue: thanks. Confirms that the channel really is closed, and I need to dig into why
[12:51] <fwereade> jam, possibly resource lifetimes somehow? I think the resource registry kills stuff if the connection is closed?
[12:51] <jam> fwereade: from what I see in the DEBUG from json codec, I'm not seeing the NotifyWatcherId sent across the wire, which means it has no clue what thing I'm trying to watch.
[12:51] <jam> and thus closes the local side because of the error it go
[12:51] <jam> got
[12:52] <fwereade> jam, that sounds like it'd do it :)
[12:52] <jam> fwereade: the commonLoop code says "if I get NotFound or Stopped from any api call, kill the local session"
[12:54] <fwereade> jam, kill the watcher, right? that does sound correct
[12:59] <jam> fwereade: found it. I was passing a parameter that was locally declared, instead of the attribute of the struct. Which meant it was passing "" as the Id, which meant it wasn't getting put on the wire.
[13:02] <fwereade> jam, heh, bad luck
[13:02] <jam> :w
[13:05] <fwereade> bbiab
[13:13] <jam> fwereade: something to consider. NotifyWatcher("id").Next() is a root level function, and is not bulk. Should we instead have NotifyWatcher().Next(["id1", "id2']) or is that wrong because we want the block forever sort of functionality.
[13:13] <jam> to be honest, it scares me how many Watchers end up running for a single entity because of the layering.
[13:14] <jam> A lot of <-in => out <- transitions
[13:21] <fwereade> jam, yeah, I know what you mean
[13:22] <fwereade> jam, I am uncertain about bulk ops there -- do we return when all of them have sent? I guess we'd have to, but is that useful?
[13:22] <fwereade> jam, I'm less worried about lots of channels/goroutines
[13:22] <fwereade> jam, thousands and thousands of those *ought* to be fine
[13:23] <jam> fwereade: yeah, the block-on-one means we probably don't want bulk. Though it is the sort of one-round-trip per each thing you are watching. But we sort of *want* those to block.
[13:23] <fwereade> jam, although... maintaining *state* for all those watchers on the server side *does* bother me
[13:23] <jam> fwereade: but on another note. I have an api.NewNotifyWatcher() that can take a NotifyWatcherResult and turn it into a NotifyWatcher.
[13:23] <fwereade> jam, sweet
[13:24] <jam> fwereade: but the question is. Should you call WatchAPIVersion()=>result; NewNotifyWatcher(result)
[13:24] <jam> or
[13:24] <jam> should client.Upgrader().WatchAPIVersion() => NotifyWatcher
[13:24] <jam> fwereade: I like the later, but run into import cycles.
[13:24] <jam> because I have to import "api" in api/upgrader
[13:24] <fwereade> jam, damn,I was just about to say definitely the latter
[13:24] <jam> fwereade: that is really what I wanted, too
[13:25] <fwereade> jam, api/watcher package?
[13:25] <jam> fwereade: I can move the api code into api/watcher?
[13:25] <jam> yeah
[13:25] <jam> *sigh*
[13:25] <fwereade> jam,+1
[13:25] <jam> how many watcher.go/watcher packages will we end up with ? :)
[13:25] <jam> maybe as many as we have state
[13:25] <jam> and testing
[13:26] <fwereade> jam, it's a lesser evil than the monster packages in which everything is friends with everything else
[13:26] <fwereade> jam, kinda like python except no strong convention for "don't touch this"
[13:27] <jam> fwereade: :). The other nice thing is that api.NotifyWatcher conforms to state.NotifyWatcher (they are the same definition), which means state/testing/NotifyWatcherC works even for API watchers.
[13:27] <fwereade> jam, awesome
[13:27] <jam> It is a bit odd that it does stuff like state.FullSync() but hey, that just makes sure the api triggers, right?
[13:28] <fwereade> jam, yeah
[13:28] <fwereade> jam, ffs, MachineAgentGetMachinesResults?
[13:28] <fwereade> jam, (not you, just general bitching)
[13:32] <mgz_> is that an imperative?
[13:33] <mgz_> should it have OrElse on the end?
[13:36] <jam> fwereade: it is a bit of a mix because you are going from extreme namespacing of go, and then putting everything into one file for the API so everything gets explict namespacing.
[13:37] <jam> and the bulk logic means we end up with the struct that is one
[13:37] <jam> and the struct that traps that one with an error
[13:37] <jam> and the one that wraps that into an array
[13:37] <fwereade> jam, yeah, but it's only in one package because hurf durf small packages are bad :/
[13:37] <jam> fwereade: well, I'm running into troubles pulling out Watcher, because State/ErrCode/CodeStopped are all defined in api
[13:37] <jam> api.ErrCode
[13:38] <jam> so you can't use api.* in any subdir
[13:38] <jam> it seems a bit of a misfeature that you have to have api/params
[13:38] <jam> rather than api.Param to be used in an api.Foo.Something
[13:38] <jam> I like not having circular imports
[13:38] <fwereade> jam, yeah, +1
[13:38] <jam> but I don't quite understand where the circle is.
[13:39] <fwereade> jam, it just means that if you have people who think small packages are bad you have to put *everything* in onepackage
[13:39] <fwereade> jam, and then it's impossible to factor anything out
[13:40] <jam> fwereade: but why is it that launchpad.net/something/foo can't import launchpad.net/something ?
[13:40] <fwereade> jam, it can
[13:40] <mgz_> you may just also have circular import issues?
[13:41] <fwereade> jam, it's just some type that someone or other thought didn't deserve a package
[13:41] <fwereade> jam, and now you get to search for it
[13:42] <fwereade> jam, a thought: should those bits maybe go in params? that's the giant package that's intended to hold things relevant to both sides of the api
[13:42] <jam> mgz_: well I moved the stuff out, but AllWatcher wants direct access to Client who wants direct access to AllWatcher
[13:42] <jam> so I had to move that one back
[13:42] <fwereade> jam, not that that is itself a good solution
[13:42] <jam> but it turnsout I ended up circular
[13:42] <jam> fwereade: I moved NotifyWatcher the interface into params
[13:42] <jam> which I'm hoping is enough. But yeah, ErrCode? Maybe.
[13:42] <jam> For now, I think I sorted out the circle
[13:43] <fwereade> jam, cool
[13:43] <jam> fwereade: though I'll note
[13:43] <jam> upgrader can't import api
[13:43] <jam> because api.State.Upgrader() is a function
[13:43] <jam> so it needs access to return upgrader stuff
[13:46] <jam> so that is probably the source of most loops
[13:46] <jam> helper-functions on an api.* object, that need access to api/*/* stuff
[13:47] <jam> ugh. upgrader can't import watcher because watcher imports api and api imports upgrader because of api.State.Upgrader()
[13:48] <jam> so I'm back to moving api.ErrCode and api.Code* into api.params.
[13:48] <mgz_> I also found refactoring inside of api lots of fun :)
[13:57]  * fwereade is going through similarly rage-inducing crap himself
[14:13] <jam> fwereade: "Can we rely on resources.StopAll to clean things up?" yes, but I'd like to assert that we can do a clean Stop() in the code, and leave the StopAll to ensure the test suites stay clean.
[14:13] <jam> is that ok to land then?
[14:13] <jam> put another way, AssertStop is used to fail the test if we don't get a clean (error free) Stop9)
[14:13] <jam> StopAll is used to ensure the next test will not fail just because this one did.
[14:15] <fwereade> jam, yeah, sgtm
[14:22] <mgz_> so, the ~juju team has dave, kapil and gustavo as admins, one of them needs to create a golang ppa
[14:34] <jam> mgz_: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/calendar/bWFyay5yYW1tLWNocmlzdGVuc2VuQGNhbm9uaWNhbC5jb20.80lo482fb2s9gkfk4o8r4e70ho if you can make it
[14:34] <jam> mgz_:  I also think fwereade should be added to admins.
[14:40] <mgz_> I'm making it over jamespage's shoulder :)
[14:41] <mgz_> jam: adding fwereade sounds sensible, but also requires an admin... or the owner
[14:42] <jam> mgz_: I added you to the weekly call, so it should be in your calendar now.
[14:42] <jam> mgz_: Yeah, we need one of dave niemeyer etc to add fwereade as an Admin of the ~juju group. We just have to find them when they are online.
[14:42] <niemeyer> I'm here
[14:43] <niemeyer> fwereade is now an admin
[14:43] <jam> niemeyer: thanks !
[14:43] <fwereade> niemeyer, cheers :)
[14:43] <niemeyer> jam: np
[14:44] <jam> mgz_: I think fwereade is in that meeting as well, so you can tell him to set up the PPA :)
[14:44] <mgz_> it's already over :)
[14:45] <mgz_> fwereade: can you please add a golang ppa to ~juju, thanks!
[14:45] <fwereade> mgz_, probably, but I lack context, have been focusing elsewhere
[14:47] <mgz_> fwereade: it involves clicking some buttons on https://code.launchpad.net/~juju
[14:49] <fwereade> mgz_, does https://launchpad.net/~juju/+archive/golang look like what you need?
[14:50] <mgz_> thanks!
[14:55] <mgz_> okay, copied in the binaries and added dep from devel to golang
[14:55] <mgz_> so, ppa will build on 1.1.1 next time.
[15:17] <mgz_> so... what makes mgo.DialWithInfo hang, without ever calling the dial function...
[15:18] <mgz_> answer: giving it a hostname that does not resolve
[15:21] <mgz_> give it an ip it can't connect to instead (like <IP_ADDRESS>) and it loops trying to connect instead
[15:42] <fwereade> jam, btw, I'm wondering a bit about AgentTools
[15:43] <fwereade> jam, what's the advantage of having all those fields vs packing them all into the normal string form?
[15:44] <fwereade> jam, not saying it's bad, just kinda wondering
[15:50] <jam> fwereade: because you don't have to then parse the string form to pull out the actual integers you need elsewhere?
[15:51] <fwereade> jam, parsing a string seems like less hassle than sending all those extra bytes every time but I guess it's debatable
[15:59] <jam> fwereade: code we have to write vs parsing we get for "free". I agree a simple string could be good. I don't really care. JSON.Unmarshal did the work for me so I don't have to see the bytes on the wire :)
[16:00] <fwereade> jam, fair enough, I have more important things to worry about than mindlessly tweaking that anyway :)
[16:03] <jam> mgz, fwereade: If you feel like reviewing: https://codereview.appspot.com/10939043/ is the refactoring of watchers into their own subpackage
[16:03] <fwereade> jam, I'd love to, the urge to set fire to things is only growing over here
[16:05] <fwereade> jam, it seems like everything is entwined with everything else but nothing uses anything resembling a common convention
[16:13] <fwereade> jam,reviewed
[19:17] <jam> fwereade: the out := w.out thing
[19:17] <jam> fwereade: the issue is that it actually triggers double out
[19:18] <jam> Because the watcher on the server side has the initial report to give
[19:18] <jam> and you are adding one on the local side.
[19:18] <jam> the original statement was "Watch calls Next" but I have no indication that that was ever true.
[19:18] <jam> AFAICT there weren't any tests of the original behavior
[22:02]  * thumper is prepared for another day talking to himself
[22:12] <ahasenack> thumper: do you usually have a team mate in your timezone?
[22:13] <thumper> ahasenack: wallyworld is normally working, and only two hours out
[22:13] <thumper> dave cheney is often around but pretty quiet
[22:13] <thumper> I really should hire another NZer just for the company
[22:14] <ahasenack> :)
[22:14] <wallyworld> thumper: you feeling lonely? awww.
[22:14] <thumper> wallyworld: you are on holiday right?
[22:14] <ahasenack> funny the "normally working" remark :)
[22:14] <wallyworld> yeah. just poked my nose in to see what's happening
[22:14] <wallyworld> gotta do painting and house stuff today. rather be working :-(
[23:38] <davecheney> i appologise for my outburst last night
[23:38] <davecheney> sorry, i'm just so dang frustrated
[23:56] <thumper> davecheney: which outburst? i thought you were reasonably measured
[23:57] <thumper> you certainly didn't leave any psychic scars or nothing :-)
[23:58] <thumper> davecheney: would you be supportive of an upload-tools that doesn't build them?
[23:59] <thumper> davecheney: I wrote myself a small script
[23:59] <thumper> to effectively find the executable path