[04:09] <seele> was there a kmail update recently?
[04:15] <crimsun> 4:4.1.80-0ubuntu3 Superseded in jaunty-release on 2008-12-16 by 4:4.1.85-0ubuntu1
[04:19] <ScottK> seele: Do you get the usability theory behind this notifications thing sadbfl wants us to do?
[04:20] <seele> ScottK: i haven't read his article but i've talked to him and other UX people about it.  notifications for only ephemeral information makes sense
[04:21] <seele> the problem is pushing the responsibility of actionable information on applications and relying on them handling it in a sane way
[04:22] <ScottK> I can understand not requiring interaction.
[04:22] <ScottK> It's the not allowing it that seems to me to be madness.
[04:22] <crimsun> are ephemeral notifications really useful, though? do you really want to know that a cd-rom was just plugged in via an intrusive bubble?
[04:22] <seele> GODDAMNIT KMAIL CRASHED AGAIN
[04:22] <seele> excuse me
[04:22]  * seele sighs
[04:22] <ScottK> crimsun: There's that too.
[04:23] <seele> i imagine the level of notification can be configured
[04:23] <ScottK> My cel phone beeps whenever it finds/loses the network.  As a result, I leave the sound off.
[04:23] <crimsun> i would hope so, but deciding what's sane would be a major point of contention in my book. perhaps most everyone else thinks differently.
[04:24] <seele> yeah.. thats where the "user research" and "design" part comes in :P
[04:24] <ScottK> seele: it seems counter-intuitive to me that if a notification pops up and I want to deal with it, that I can't click on it and get taken to whatever it's about.
[04:25] <seele> ScottK: then the wrong type of information is being sent as a notification.  if it is something that is likely actionable it should be handled otherwise
[04:25] <seele> part of the problem is the existing system doesnt work with the new desig model so lots of people are confused how it will work
[04:25] <seele> in theory it's a sound design.  there just isn't a PoC yet to make everyone feel at ease about it
[04:25] <ScottK> Then I'm not sure I understand what a notification would be.
[04:27]  * ScottK goes and looks at the video again.
[04:27] <seele> the other problem with the design is that they expect the defaults to work for all users and all use cases
[04:27] <seele> which different users use their computer differently so their notification needs will obviously be different
[04:28] <seele> if you get hundreds of emails a day, you probably don't want notifications that a new email has arrived.  but you might want to know when a coworker emails you vs. when you get a mailing list message
[04:28] <ScottK> In there sample video they use IM messages as an example.  I definitely might want to interact with those.
[04:28] <seele> some users might not care when a friend is online via chat or not, but a college student might, etc.
[04:29] <seele> the thing about the notifications is they don't last long, so by the time you notice the bubble and read it, it will be gone
[04:29] <ScottK> seele: Were there really UDS sessions on this?
[04:29] <seele> their solution is that when the bubble dissappears, it goes in to the IM clicky thing.  You clicky the thing and you get your message
[04:30] <seele> ScottK: no, these were mostly side discussions.  a community problem with this design proposal was the way they unveiled it :P
[04:30] <ScottK> OK.  Well sabdfl's blog post led me to a different conclusion.
[04:30] <seele> but back to the IM thing.  so you see the bubble disappear in to X and so you go and click on X because that is the last location you saw the bubble go to
[04:31] <seele> oh well maybe i misunderstood it and filled in the design gaps with my own ideas
[04:31] <seele> like i said, i didn't read it yet, ive only talked about it with some of the design people
[04:31] <nosrednaekim> as a humble user, I generally dislike notifications, unless they are for a fairly rare occurance, or to differentiate an every-day event from an important one
[04:31] <ScottK> That might at least make sense.  His blog post explicitly says no clicking to followup.
[04:31] <seele> wait, what don't you understand?  about the bubble disappearing in to the chat button thing?
[04:31] <seele> no.. not clicking the bubble
[04:31] <seele> you click the chat icon in the panel thing
[04:32] <ScottK> seele: I understand what you are saying, I'm just not sure it's consistent with what he said.
[04:32] <nosrednaekim> that somewhat makes sense... but why not just flash the IM system tray icon?
[04:33] <ScottK> As long as it comes with a disable option, it's not such a big deal.  My reaction was pretty much along the lines of what I read in asiego's blog.
[04:33] <seele> nosrednaekim: the example is in gnome, not kde.  they are trying to get rid of system tray icons and only use icons in the tray when they mean something
[04:33] <nosrednaekim> yech
[04:33] <nosrednaekim> I don't like that idea
[04:33] <ScottK> Stick with KDE then.
[04:33] <seele> ScottK: yes, the new fdo spec they are working on should support that
[04:33] <nosrednaekim> :P
[04:33] <crimsun> i really abhor notifications
[04:34] <ScottK> Actually quassel is a good example of it almost done right.
[04:34] <ScottK> I get a nice ephemeral pop-up that I can dismiss early if I want to when I get highlighted.
[04:34] <nosrednaekim> ScottK: agreed, I appreciate those notifications
[04:35] <ScottK> This is goo.  What I really want then is the ability to click on it and go to the IRC channel in question.
[04:35] <ScottK> seele: ^^^ Perhaps something for your review if you haven't turned it in already?
[04:35] <ScottK> goo/good.
[04:36] <seele> i didnt cover that in my review.. it's already like 80 slides
[04:36] <ScottK> OK.  One more for me please (especially since it relates to the notification thingy)
[04:36] <ScottK> ?
[04:37] <seele> it's not really *my* review anymore if people start asking me to put stuff in it
[04:37] <ScottK> Only put it in if you agree.
[05:08] <nixternal> seele: could you also add a notification when it is time to get my popcorn out of the microwave too please? :p
[05:08]  * nixternal runs and hides
[05:09] <nixternal> how do you like that, we went from 2.5 feet of snow, and negative zero temps, to tornado watch and severe storms with 61+ degree weather today
[05:09] <nixternal> god I love Chicago
[05:09] <nhandler> I didn't hear about the tornado watch nixternal
[05:09] <nixternal> ya, it was all day, they canceled it earlier though
[05:10] <nosrednaekim> hah.... global warming ;)
[05:10] <nixternal> just for one day? I don't fall for that
[05:10] <nhandler> You also can't forget about the flood warnings
[05:10] <nixternal> ya, but they aren't as bad as they thought they would be at least
[05:11] <nixternal> if anything, chicago has had global cooling, and extreme global cooling
[05:11] <nosrednaekim> isn't it just that the lakes are getting warmer and evaporating more?
[05:11]  * nosrednaekim stops playing the devil's advocate
[05:11] <nixternal> hehe
[05:12] <nixternal> this year wass the first time in a long time where the harbors actually froze over in lake michigan here
[05:12] <nosrednaekim> scrap that theory <_<
[05:12] <nixternal> hehe
[05:13] <nixternal> but we had a couple of weeks there where the temps were brutally cold
[05:15] <nosrednaekim> so where was the UDS a couple weeks ago? please don't tell me NYC
[05:15] <nixternal> california
[05:15] <nixternal> google once again
[05:15] <nixternal> it was nice and warm there :)
[05:16] <nosrednaekim> whew :P if it was google-NYC I would have been mad, thats about a 15 minute train ride from school
[05:16] <nixternal> hehe
[05:16] <nixternal> google-nyc doesn't have google burritos, so I wouldn't have gone :p
[05:16] <nosrednaekim> haha
[05:17] <nixternal> though I think an east coast event would have been better as it would have shaved about 8 hours off of most people's travel
[05:18]  * nosrednaekim hopes for NYC next year (and a less busy school schedule)
[05:18] <nixternal> actually, someone (me) brought up austin texas for the next one...maybe at dell :)
[05:19] <nosrednaekim> that'd be a nice change
[05:21]  * ScottK ponders * Switch from cdbs to dephelper for debian/rules because cdbs just got too complicated.
[05:21] <nixternal> ScottK: how so?
[05:22] <ScottK> In this particular case a have a python package with a docs package and cdbs is convinced it needs setup.py for the docs package.
[05:22] <nixternal> haha, nice
[10:38] <Mez> nixternal: the concept of bitlbee scares me. I think I'm sticking to pidgin for now, it fits my workflow better :D
[15:30] <Tm_T> interesting
[15:31] <Tm_T> it took 5 hours to compile Qt just to find out I get some linking error, but no proper information what it was
[15:50] <Riddell> Qt is a beast like that, and with qmake it's hard to compile only a small part of it
[17:33] <patxi> hi everybody
[17:35] <Riddell> hi patxi
[18:00] <patxi> errrr... can anybody help me with connecting signal-slots in pyqt-pykde?
[18:09] <stdin> patxi: what's the problem?
[18:09] <patxi> oh
[18:10] <patxi> I'm practicing with the webkit widget example in techbase
[18:11] <patxi> and I want refresh addressBar QLineEdit with a link is clicked
[18:11] <patxi> with the link address
[18:11] <patxi> i connect signal and slot
[18:12] <patxi> QObject.connect(self.web, SIGNAL("linkClicked(QUrl)"), self.refreshUrl)
[18:12] <patxi> and slot method
[18:12] <patxi> def refreshUrl(self, nuevaUrl):
[18:12] <patxi> self.addressBar.setText(nuevaUrl().url().toString())
[18:12] <patxi> do nothing xD
[18:13] <patxi> is it well coded?
[18:13] <stdin> you're using the static QObject.connect method, use the member one
[18:13] <stdin> self.connect(self.web, SIGNAL("linkClicked(QUrl)"), self.refreshUrl)
[18:14] <stdin> or you need to add self after the signal
[18:15] <patxi> ahm, thank you
[18:15] <patxi> I'll probe now
[19:57] <NCommander> Riddell, and/or ScottK: anyone in the mood to sponsor?
[20:30] <nixternal> NCommander: what do you need sponsored?
[20:37] <NCommander> nixternal, kdegraphics
[20:37] <nixternal> link me homeskillet
[20:37] <nixternal> is it loaded with crack?
[20:38] <nixternal> that is the question used to ask me a couple of years back
[20:38] <nixternal> Hobbsee used to ask me that question I mean
[20:38] <NCommander> if by patches for it to build on ARM
[20:38] <NCommander> than no
[20:38] <nixternal> woo arm, build it for the leg too
[20:38]  * NCommander whacks nixternal
[22:27] <jussi01> seele: PING. just a quick follow up on the quassel evalution and recomendations? the lads are keen to get things happening
[22:29] <seele> jussi01: yes i finished it but didn't get a chance to publish it before christmas.. i'll probably link it tonight or tomorrow.
[22:29] <Sput> ah thanks, good to know, I thought I maybe missed it due to our recent server hickups :)
[22:29] <Sput> take your time and don't get stressed out :)
[22:30] <jussi01> seele: excellent :)


[16:50] <dkessel> guys, would you say that gtk3 apps are properly supported in autopilot with version 1.5?
[16:51] <dkessel> is there a specific version that the libautopilot-gtk still has version 1.4, but autopilot itself seems to be at 1.5.1 ? (in wily)
[17:38] <balloons> hey dkessel!
[17:39] <dkessel> hey balloons :)
[17:46] <dkessel> balloons: any idea about my questions? ^
[17:46] <balloons> right, right
[17:47] <balloons> so ubiquity is written in gtk3. And there are some helpers DanChapman worked on to make it easier to test; they should be of use for any gtk3 app
[17:48] <balloons> so, yes autopilot has gtk3 support, and there are tests using it
[17:48] <balloons> are you wondering why the libautopilot-gtk is still named 1.4?
[17:48] <balloons> that I cannot tell you. probably just a naming thing, and worth asking veebers
[17:49] <balloons> if I might ask however, what are you thinking of ?
[17:51] <dkessel> i want to try replacing the manual test for mousepad, xubuntu's default editor
[17:53] <balloons> ahh brillant. i hope the gtk3 versions of xubuntu apps treat you better than the gtk2 stuff
[17:53] <balloons> do let me know if you need help or run into issues, etc
[17:55] <dkessel> balloons: sure, will do :)
[17:55] <balloons> and do talk to Dan about the helpers for gtk3
[17:55] <balloons> if things go well that is; they may be of use
[17:55] <dkessel> ok


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[13:11] <benjaoming> Does anybody know why dhpython adds a call to pycompile in postinst when built on Launchpad, but doesn't add it when I build locally (on 16.04) ?
[23:43] <tsimonq2> cjwatson, wgrant: Is it just me or does lgw01 look a bit stalled with "Cleaning"?
[23:43] <tsimonq2> Build queue's stacking up fast due to this (bottleneck) and I'd like to get this done tonight. ;)
[23:44] <wgrant> tsimonq2: The bigger problem is just a lot of private builds that have jumped the queue.
[23:44] <wgrant> But I'll see what I can do.
[23:45] <tsimonq2> wgrant: Right, but that wouldn't be a problem if 2/3 of the x86 builders weren't cleaning ;)
[23:45] <tsimonq2> (that's my point in saying something)
[23:45] <tsimonq2> Thanks.
[23:52] <wgrant> tsimonq2: Indeed, thanks for the poke. But sadly it will still be a problem for an hour or so, even with the extra third of builders revived.
[23:53] <tsimonq2> Alright.


[00:04] <corbinu> So I just did a fresh install of Mythbuntu 11.10 and I am trying to pull over some SQL into mysql but the root password does not seem to be empty by default as it was in the last version
[01:07] <tmkt> Hey Hey
[01:07] <tmkt> quick q
[01:07] <tmkt> just upgraded to 11.10
[01:07] <tmkt> have an HVr=1600...and every btton on my remote works
[01:07] <tmkt> other the Ok
[01:07] <tmkt> whats the best way to trouble shoot this?
[01:07] <tmkt> irw isn't giving me any output on that key
[07:23] <zuixro> Hey, I upgraded to 11.10 today, and it seems to have broken my video drivers. It's just booting to a blank screen. Does anyone know a quick way to fix it? I think I need to reinstall the video drivers, but I don't know the package name. It's an integrated ATI card.
[08:36] <Moscherkobold> zuixro: one of these APU´s?
[08:37] <Moscherkobold> you can download the newest version on the AMD homepage, in the support section
[08:38] <Moscherkobold> you have to choose "desktop graphics" and then A-Series
[08:42] <Moscherkobold> I´m also trying to install new drivers, because I still have this "AMD unsupported hardware" watermark in the lower right corner of my screen.
[08:43] <Moscherkobold> maybe this is helpful for you, too? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fglrx-installer/+bug/568015
[08:43] <Zinn> [bugs.launchpad.net] Bug #568015 in fglrx-installer (Ubuntu): “Watermark "AMD unsupported hardware" is displayed”
[08:43] <Moscherkobold> at least the installation part of it
[13:47] <superm1> zuixro, there is a fix http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...8&postcount=16
[13:48] <superm1> zuixro, can you please add your logs to bug 876945 though?
[13:48] <Zinn> Bug 876945 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Upgrade didn't properly set-up lightdm" [Undecided, New] http://www.launchpad.net/bugs/876945
[13:48] <superm1> we need to get the bottom of this to get it fixed
[15:31] <Ankhwatcher> zuixro: I had to reinstall my nvidia-current to get 11.10 to work
[16:28] <zuixro> superm1 I added my logs to that bug, but the forum link you posted isn't working. It just takes me to the main page for the forums. Can you resend the link?
[16:29] <superm1> zuixro, thanks for adding logs, http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11358168&postcount=16
[16:29] <Zinn> [ubuntuforums.org] Ubuntu Forums - View Single Post - Mythbuntu 11.10 upgrade issues
[16:38] <zuixro> superm1 Awesome thanks. It worked. I was up till like 3:30 last night trying to fix it
[16:39] <superm1> zuixro, great.  hopefully we can move forward and get this fixed in update manager now since it's wreacking so much havok on upgraders
[16:39] <superm1> we need more people to upgrade during beta, but it's hard to get people to sacrifice their stable boxes
[16:45] <Ankhwatcher> do you guys know how to restore automatic login?
[16:46] <Ankhwatcher> I broke mine getting the dm to work
[16:55] <Ankhwatcher> also mythbuntu broadcasts to my monitor off to the left and I don't know why
[17:04] <Ankhwatcher> I might have fixed the login issue: http://www.perturb.org/display/812_GDM_AutoLogin.html
[17:04] <Zinn> [www.perturb.org] GDM AutoLogin
[17:04] <Ankhwatcher> or not, I should know in a sec
[17:05] <superm1> Ankhwatcher, that same post i gave zuixro should help
[17:08] <Ankhwatcher> it looks worryingly like my computer might have decided to abandon startx again
[17:08] <Ankhwatcher> superm1: ta
[17:11] <superm1> Ankhwatcher, regarding lightdm automatic login not being set up automatically, that's this bug btw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/854431
[17:11] <Zinn> [bugs.launchpad.net] Bug #854431 in lightdm (Ubuntu): “GDM automatic login is not transitioned to lightdm automatic login”
[17:11] <superm1> feel free to mark it as affecting you too
[17:14] <Ankhwatcher> superm1: that's fixed the autologin
[17:14] <Ankhwatcher> any ideas about the wonky screen?
[17:15] <Ankhwatcher> it looks okay before the dm is launched but the desktop is off to the left
[17:18] <Ankhwatcher> superm1: mine isn't an upgrade but a fresh install. I tried it because the upgrade broke everything.
[17:29] <superm1> Ankhwatcher, ah, then that's another bug; that there is no tool for configuring lightdm autologin after install
[17:29] <superm1> not sure how we're going to solve it, because gnome's approach is to do it all in gnome-control-center
[17:29] <superm1> as for the wonky screen, nvidia-settings might be able to help you
[17:48] <Ankhwatcher> superm1: I'm not sure how to de-wonk the screen in nvidia settings
[17:49] <superm1> mess with resolution options and overscan (if available)
[17:50] <Ankhwatcher> what about offset, what's that for?
[18:03] <superm1> not sure


[00:37] <jac_cplane> I'm seeing this error on Centos7  15:48:11 ERROR juju.worker.proxyupdater error writing apt proxy config file: open /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95-juju-proxy-settings: no such file or directory
[00:39] <jac_cplane> apt does not run on Centos7:  any thoughts
[00:39] <jac_cplane> unit-rac-master-0: 15:48:12 ERROR juju.worker.proxyupdater error writing apt proxy config file: open /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/95-juju-proxy-settings: no such file or directory
[00:41] <jac_cplane> can I ignore this
[00:47] <tvansteenburgh> jac_cplane: i'm on the way out the door, but i'd ask that one on the mailing list.
[00:49] <tvansteenburgh> jac_cplane: you can probably ignore it but i'd recommend you ask there anyway
[02:22] <jac_cplane> ok - tahnks
[07:16] <kjackal> Good morning Juju world!
[14:28] <vlad_> Hey everyone just wanted to say this is a great IRC channel and you have all been really helpful. I also want to say thanks for putting up with me I know I ask a lot of questions, but I'm deeply interesting in learning juju and maas and learning it right.
[14:30] <vlad____> Anyway I was wondering if anyone in here is decently experience with maas?
[15:21] <lazyPower> vlad____: i have a bit of experience with MAAS. i'm not certain i can answer any advanced questions but i have a fundamental understanding of the application
[15:26] <zeestrat> vlad____: Anything in particular you're wondering about? If it's maas specific make sure to ask the guys in #maas too
[15:38] <vlad____> zeestrat: I'm having issues with the underlying networking of my openstack bundle. It complains that there are no public or private IPs available. I'm assuming this means juju needs to rely on something running dhcp and I wanted to know what the best practice is/was. Is it to run dhcp from maas for everything or have something like infoblox doing that? Or can juju operate without dhcp and I'm a complete idiot?
[16:16] <lazyPower> vlad____: maas really likes to have that DHCP control.
[16:16] <lazyPower> however, it can outsource to a third party DHCP server if configured to do so. it just stops its dhcp server and will let the networks existing DHCP do its thing.
[16:18] <lazyPower> vlad____: in any case, juju doesn't care. Whatever the machine enlists with network wise will be passed to juju. However, it will favor any interfaces that are set to "auto-assign" unless all interfaces are declared as DHCP, then it should hand over all the interfaces in one go, that's one gotchya i discovered last week
[17:15] <vlad____> Thanks for the help guys! Sorry had to afk for a bit
[17:15] <vlad____> lazyPower: Can you give me more details on that gotcha? I think this is what's kind of messing me up
[17:16] <lazyPower> vlad____: so, in your unit detail under the 'network' tab, you'll notice your interfaces list their fabric, and configuration
[17:16] <vlad____> Right now the cloud runs perfectly fine if all network configs in my bundle point to my PXE zone (that has its dhcp handled by maas) so I've assumed I was having a dhcp issue. However, I also have issues assigning all interfaces to dhcp in maas for some reason
[17:16] <vlad____> lazyPower: Yeah
[17:17] <lazyPower> if any of those interfaces are set to 'auto-assign', juju will favor that interface instead of any DHCP configured interfaces. in my experience, it yielded units with only a single configured interface. once i changed the 2 interfaces to DHCP i got the 2 interfaces as i expected.
[17:17] <vlad____> lazyPower: Were you using network zones and bindings in that example?
[17:17] <lazyPower> yeah i had tha tissue too, i would set it to DHCP and it would revert, what i found helps (in maas 2.2) is to set it, navigate to a different tab and then reload the interfaces tab to ensure it stuck.
[17:18] <vlad____> lazypower: Ahhh ok cool that's going to be super helpful!
[17:18] <lazyPower> I was not, i have a very vanilla flat network scheme. 1) management network that is host only, 2) proper top level lan network for the public-address.
[17:18] <lazyPower> i should note, i run VMAAS (maas in a vm) and its only managing VM's that are statically enlisted, not a pod or anything cool that maas currently supports :)
[17:19] <lazyPower> so some of this may not be useful to you, but anecdotally i hope it helps.
[17:23] <vlad____> lazyPower: It helps a lot. I'm on a team by myself deploying to less than ideal infrastructure being managed by a maas that's hosted on a VM. So I've got lots of moving targets to hit right and each deploy takes quite a while to finish (not too long to fail though).
[17:23] <vlad____> The VM is in vcenter as well which means it doesn't see the network the same way the physical boxes do... I've gotten the cloud deployed 90% complete but am having issues on the last leg with networking
[18:05] <lazyPower> vlad____: yeah, i understand your plight, i'm using direct KVM myself, so there's a bit of a gap there
[18:05] <lazyPower> but if maas is seeing the network config, and they are set to DHCP (either managed or unmanaged) juju should be getting the interfaces.
[18:06] <lazyPower> now i'm not 100% positive about the spaces, thats on my list to dive into but i haven't quite gotten there yet.
[18:36] <roaksoax> mpontillo: /win 3
[18:36] <roaksoax> err


[10:32] <AnAnt> Hello, the network manager connecting icons in Humanity icon theme do not differentiate between the several stages in connection
[10:33] <AnAnt> the default icons in Network Manager do make the differentiation, hence aid in debugging a connectivity problem
[11:28] <coz_> hey guys... please tell me that no one here is responsible for the karmic desing especially the boot splash screens
[12:07] <thorwil> coz_: independent of an evaluation of the boot design, a comment as your's doesn't help in any way. it can only increase frustration. worst of all, it's not even one bit entertaining.
[12:08] <coz_> thorwil,  I wasnt trying to be entertaining at all..just curious  ...I am on the art team but have not done anything  for some time
[12:08] <coz_> thorwil,  and the images used for these splashes  are inconsitent with the colors in ubuntu
[12:09] <coz_> I realize there have been changes in gnome or at least gnome on ubuntu   by eliminating  gdm changes
[12:10] <thorwil> coz_: suddenly you are heading in a direction where one might find constructive criticism. however, the karmic case is closed. changes pretty much impossible
[12:12] <coz_> thorwil,  understood  and I am certain I will find a way to change the splash screens here... however you suggestion that my comments "can only increase frustration"  is a bit out of line
[12:12] <coz_> thorwil,  it was ...after all... a question to see if the team was responisble for the splash screen images
[12:14] <thorwil> coz_: that's not the question you asked. i'm not interested to play games with you if you can't remember your words 7 lines later
[12:15] <coz_> thorwil,  ok unfortunaely..without a further explanation of your comments  ...I dont think you and I can communicate properly
[12:16] <thorwil> "12:28:18 <coz_>	hey guys... please tell me that no one here is responsible for the karmic desing especially the boot splash screens"
[12:17] <coz_> thorwil,  I already know what I said... to believe that  someone on the team created those images is much more of a frustration than my question could possibly elicit
[12:18] <thorwil> coz_: so you imply that the work is bad without giving any details why you think so. hence frustration
[12:18] <coz_> although it wouldnt surprise me that shuttleworth made an independent decision about the images
[12:18] <coz_> thorwil,  they are inconsistent with ubuntu colors  and imply that the system theme is going to be a dark muddy color
[12:19] <thorwil> coz_: i wouldn't have complained if you said just that
[12:19] <coz_> I did
[12:20] <coz_> thorwil,  and the images used for these splashes  are inconsitent with the colors in ubuntu
[12:20] <coz_> I said that earlier
[12:20] <coz_> however I also know that in the past the efforts of the team were ignored by shuttleworth
[12:21] <coz_> so I was just curious as to who had made the final decision about the art work for splash
[12:22] <thorwil> ah, there we have it. a question without judgment
[12:23] <thorwil> coz_: from what i read on lists, Mark still signs off all design decisions, but wants to hand that responsibility over to someone from the team at Canonical
[12:23] <coz_> glad I could please  but what about an answer ? :)
[12:26]  * darkmatter yawns sleepily at gtk+
[12:34] <coz_> thorwil,  oh man that is not good news
[12:36] <darkmatter> design decisions should be left to designers :)
[12:37] <coz_> darkmatter, absolutely :)
[12:37] <coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy   how are you :)
[12:38]  * darkmatter gently pats coz_ hello
[12:38] <coz_> :)
[12:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  still the same old story about developers thinking they can design images  lol
[12:38] <darkmatter> not bad. been sleeping when I should be working, working when I should be sleeping. the usual ;)
[12:38] <darkmatter> how have you been?
[12:39] <coz_> darkmatter,  same old...doing much more support than I can handle sometimes...I am not on the cairo dock team so that takes more time and my car had broken down again
[12:39] <coz_> darkmatter, not to mention my video card blew two capacitors  takeint one monitor and 1 gig of memory along with it
[12:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  rathe I am on the cairo-dock team now
[12:40] <darkmatter> coz_: speaking of design. I'm sorta kinda collaborating on something (as in got the initial mockup sources and the rest is in my hand (filling in the gaps, making it 'work')
[12:40] <coz_> damn fingers
[12:40] <darkmatter> cool
[12:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  cool  I assume you finsished those gtk2 themes right?
[12:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  we havent talked for a while so I just want to be up to date with your efforts :)
[12:41] <darkmatter> coz_: sorta. thing went a little of course for a while. atm I'm working on breathing life into one of jimmacs designs
[12:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  ah cool
[12:42] <darkmatter> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/images/blog/cessna.png
[12:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  ooo nice and simple and clear I like it :)
[12:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  is that available right now?  for testing?
[12:43] <zniavre> yeaahh rounded menu aare lovely
[12:44] <zniavre> :o)  bonjour / hello
[12:44] <darkmatter> filled in the gaps for the missing widgets on paper. this weekend I'm starting on the gtk work (murrine/pixbuf)
[12:44] <coz_> zniavre,  hey guy :)
[12:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  very very cool
[12:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  will that theme have color variations?
[12:45] <darkmatter> coz_: nah.. just got the source svg from jimmac two days ago, been designing the missing bits to 'fit' with the existing file
[12:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok darn :)
[12:46] <darkmatter> coz_: for the most part it should be possible. first on the hitlist is the scrollbars. a lot of overlays to get the stripes going
[12:46] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok
[12:46] <coz_> cool
[12:46] <coz_> darkmatter,  I certainly like the focused and unfocused variations there
[12:47] <darkmatter> I could easily do recolorable with murrine/experience, but I don't think actualpackages for experience are that common (haven't really seen any), plus no distro has it by default iirc
[12:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  well  I could go in and edit it manually although that color blue is not too offensive :)
[12:48] <darkmatter> pixbuf handles recolors to an extent, just not as efficiently imo
[12:49] <coz_> darkmatter,  well this theme ,,,in my opinion is very attractive
[12:49] <darkmatter> lus experience would help add some character. you can place multiple image overlays anywhere on a widget with it. so could make for some awesome looking entries etc
[12:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  are you here more often now?
[12:50] <darkmatter> coz_: indeed. which is why I got the sources from jimmac. it's gnomish but modern (instead of the traditional gnomish/win95 :P)
[12:50] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. almost every morning
[12:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  exactly .. I find the lines  very nice in that theme
[12:51] <coz_> darkmatter,  cool  I will have to  set xchat to open this channel automatically then :)
[12:52] <darkmatter> plus it's a nice soft, slightly warmish grey (I find the grey in clearlooks a little cool/harsh btw)
[12:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  I agree  but then  you knew that lol
[12:52] <darkmatter> lol
[12:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  some day we will prvail  and prevent developers from choosing artwork lol
[12:53] <darkmatter> hehe
[12:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  although that may take more effort when it comes to ubuntu.... this team should have final word in the choosing artwork
[12:54] <darkmatter> going to do a blue variant of the sonar icons to go with it (sonar is basically a high res industrial based on single-canvas git, but green in the monitors etc instead of blue)
[12:55] <coz_> darkmatter,  well icons are another issue with me.... I have had the same set for nearly a year now and have not found anything as nice for my use  it is the elementary set but the 1.5 version not the 2.0  since that guy completely reivised the set  as to appear as another theme
[12:55] <coz_> instead of being consistent
[12:58] <darkmatter> coz_: I generally like the  approach suse takes. submit > review > if it well received its in. it's still 'by committee' but its better than totalitarian decision making :)
[12:59] <coz_> darkmatter,  well ...that certainly sounds more appropriate for linux in general
[13:01] <darkmatter> coz_: I like these icons. http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4521/screenshotoh.png   http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3046/screenshot3mj.png
[13:03] <coz_> darkmatter,  nice... I generally dont like "face on" icons but the slight color variation on those are attractive
[13:06] <darkmatter> coz_: evolution of the tango style. I'm actually quite pleased by the changes
[13:07] <coz_> darkmatter,  mm I will have to take a closer look... I think you know I am not a big fan of tango :)
[13:09] <zniavre> please tell if i m right: i do not like the switch Off button used in gdm (white on white selected bg) is that "normal" ?
[13:09] <darkmatter> coz_: well... I'm not a big fan of the style (and obviously tango is still present (it should be inherits gnome, but I did an edit because the green goes better :P), but the revisions present in g-i-t and sonar are making it grow on me
[13:10] <coz_> I have to take leave for a few hours to get the car fixed...
[13:10] <coz_> darkmatter,   will be back around pm I think
[13:10] <darkmatter> kk. take care :)
[13:11] <coz_> you too :)
[13:27] <mac_v> darkmatter: what is the widget_class for open office apps? i'd trying to finish a dark theme
[13:27] <mac_v> ?
[13:28] <darkmatter> mac_v: ummm... sec. I can't remember offhand
[13:29] <mac_v> any very dark color causes the open office icons to switch to hicontrast icons :/
[13:30] <darkmatter> nope... thats inkscape widgets... *digs through another file*
[13:30] <mac_v> is there any app which can help us identify the widget_class in use?
[13:31] <darkmatter> err.... I know of an 'engine' that can, not sure about an app
[13:33] <mac_v> darkmatter: engine? i dont mind which does the job ;) ... anything that might help identify the widgets ;)
[13:34] <darkmatter> sec. grabbing the linky to the 'how to find crap' part
[13:36] <darkmatter> mac_v: http://benjamin.sipsolutions.net/Projects/eXperience
[13:36] <darkmatter> quote: "If you set the enviroment variable EXPERIENCE_PRINT_WIDGET_PATH=TRUE the engine will print out all drawing operations to stderr (Loads of output). It prints out the class (and widget) path of the widget that is drawn, and the group used to do this. This is very usefull for tweaking apps. "
[13:40] <mac_v> darkmatter: hm... sounds awesome , now i have to figure out how it works and stuff ;)
[13:40] <darkmatter> hehe. it's neat. still learning it
[13:50] <zniavre> darkmatter, sorry to ask but where is the output of experience engine please?
[13:52] <zniavre> ha ok
[13:53] <zniavre> understand
[13:53] <mac_v> zniavre: which version are you using??
[13:53] <mac_v> the experimental or... ?
[13:54] <zniavre> experimental yes
[13:54] <zniavre> the one from debian repos
[13:55] <mac_v> ah ...
[13:55]  * mac_v still scratching head :/
[13:57] <zniavre> EXPERIENCE_PRINT_WIDGET_PATH=TRUE twf  for exemple
[13:58] <zniavre> http://art.gnome.org/themes/gtk2/1058    here an experience theme (olive)
[13:58] <zniavre> what is sad i wanted it to find a widget into gdm panel but i do not find the way to use it
[14:01] <darkmatter> zniavre: i t prints to stderr, you need run the app with the engine in use from a terminal. it will print the data to the terminal
[14:01] <darkmatter> as for gdm. which widget?
[14:02] <zniavre> the "combobox" in panel
[14:03] <mac_v> darkmatter: the  "EXPERIENCE_PRINT_WIDGET_PATH=TRUE" must be set in the theme?
[14:04] <mac_v> gtkrc or is it part of the app launcher command
[14:04] <zniavre> open terminal and type > EXPERIENCE_PRINT_WIDGET_PATH=TRUE twf
[14:04] <zniavre> if you got widget factory
[14:06] <zniavre> (sorry to answer)
[14:07] <mac_v> zniavre: hmm? why sorry?
[14:07] <darkmatter> those are slaved to gdm panel itself (for color etc). so as far as colors they're set by either  "*GdmGreeterPanel*" or widget "*gdm-user-switch-menubar*" (at least thats the only two I know of currently. both are panel classes in gdm)
[14:08] <darkmatter> widget "*GdmGreeterPanel*"  <-- typo fixed :P
[14:10] <zniavre> how did you  find it please?
[14:10] <zniavre> using experience ?
[14:11]  * mac_v kicks his connection , crappy speed :/
[14:11] <darkmatter> nope. they're from the latest revision of Sonar (openSUSE's default)
[15:12] <mac_v> darkmatter: ah! finally figured out how to use it..! but it seems the ooo uses the "GtkToolbar" argh!