[04:32] <paddatrapper> Good morning almal
[05:21] <magespawn> good morning
[05:49] <paddatrapper> how are you doing magespawn?
[05:50] <Sxuza> morning people
[05:53] <paddatrapper> morning Sxuza
[05:56] <magespawn> good and you paddatrapper/
[05:56] <magespawn> ?
[06:09] <mazal> Mornings
[06:25] <anton_may> wazzzzuuuupppppp
[06:32] <anton_may> sheesh tough crowd
[06:38] <inetpro> good mornings
[06:42] <paddatrapper> magespawn: good thanks
[06:42] <paddatrapper> Hey anton_may, inetpro
[06:43] <Kilos> morning paddatrapper magespawn mazal inetpro anton_may and any i missed
[06:43] <paddatrapper> Hey Kilos
[06:44] <Kilos> dont forget to study lad
[06:46] <theblazehen> morning Kilos paddatrapper inetpro anton_may magespawn magespawn
[06:46] <Kilos> hi theblazehen
[06:48] <anton_may> mornings
[07:02] <thatgraemeguy> morning all
[07:29] <Kilos> hi thatgraemeguy
[07:29] <Kilos> hi Xethron
[07:47] <theblazehen> hey thatgraemeguy
[07:47] <theblazehen> hi magespawn
[07:47] <theblazehen> mazal: *
[07:47] <thatgraemeguy> 'lo
[07:47]  * theblazehen needs to get a better irc client
[07:47] <theblazehen> Once I get my vm host back up..
[07:58] <magespawn> theblazehen: what are you using now?
[07:59] <theblazehen> mazal: Quassel
[07:59] <magespawn> i always liked that a lot, i am now using irssi, which runs better on my prehistoric machines
[08:02]  * theblazehen prefers weechat. Have you tried it?
[08:03] <magespawn> i think i did awhile back though
[08:10] <superfly> I think it's coffee time
[08:10] <superfly> Maaz: coffee please
[08:10] <Maaz> superfly: There isn't a pot on
[08:10] <superfly> Maaz: coffee on
[08:10]  * Maaz starts grinding coffee
[08:14] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for superfly!
[08:15] <magespawn> Maaz coffee please
[08:15] <Maaz> magespawn: There isn't a pot on
[08:15] <magespawn> Maaz coffee on
[08:15]  * Maaz washes some mugs
[08:15] <magespawn> Maaz grande
[08:15] <Maaz> magespawn: Huh?
[08:15] <magespawn> Maaz large please
[08:15] <Maaz> magespawn: *blink*
[08:16] <magespawn> love that blink
[08:16] <magespawn> Maaz in a beer mug
[08:16] <Maaz> magespawn: What?
[08:16] <mazal> theblazehen, huh ?  Sorry
[08:17] <mazal> hehehehehe
[08:17] <mazal> np
[08:17] <Kilos> Maaz coffee please
[08:17] <Maaz> Kilos: Yessir
[08:17] <Kilos> ohi superfly
[08:18] <superfly> Kilos: see? I'm sneaky like that.
[08:18] <Kilos> hehe
[08:18] <Kilos> i was outside
[08:19] <Kilos> welcome to ubuntu-za
[08:19] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for magespawn and Kilos!
[08:19] <Kilos> Maaz ty
[08:19] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[08:20] <Kilos> where is flies coffee
[08:36] <Kilos> oh i see he got it  earlier
[08:37] <paddatrapper> theblazehen: weechat all the way :)
[08:57] <mazal> Everyday some more bad news
[08:58] <mazal> http://mybroadband.co.za/news/gaming/165282-massive-218-price-increase-for-xbox-live-in-south-africa.html
[09:17] <Kilos> lol
[09:18] <mazal> Problem is , same thing is gonna happen with important stuff like food also
[09:19] <Kilos> already happened and will continue to rize
[09:19] <Kilos> rise
[09:20] <mazal> Let me not say what I want to , netnou kry ek weer raas
[09:20] <Kilos> hahaha
[09:21] <Kilos> play the games you have on the machine you have
[09:21] <mazal> I'm talking about the coming resession
[09:21] <mazal> Not the games
[09:21] <mazal> We gonna suffer just to eat
[09:21] <Kilos> things going to get bad yes
[09:22] <Kilos> somewhere one of the prophetic guys said well need a wheel barrow full on money to buy a bread
[09:22] <mazal> Thank you................comment reserved
[09:22] <superfly> inetpro: what's the name of that web-based IRC client again?
[09:23] <Kilos> hi drussell welcome back
[09:23] <Kilos> you still going strong davey?
[09:23] <drussell> Hey Kilos ;o) all still good here, you?
[09:23] <Kilos> ok here ty
[09:24] <superfly> inetpro: found it, Shout
[09:32] <inetpro> superfly: how did you find it?
[09:32] <inetpro> tough to search the history for that
[09:32] <Kilos> lol
[09:32] <Kilos> hahahaha
[09:33] <Kilos> google is your friend
[09:33] <superfly> inetpro: duckduckgo'ed for "web-based irc client" saw a page to "Mibbit alternatives" on AlternativeTo.net, and looked down the list of alternatives. Recognised the logo when I saw it.
[09:34] <inetpro> obviosly the real answer is http://shout-irc.com/
[09:34] <inetpro> obviously*
[09:34] <Kilos> Maaz web based IRC client is <reply> http://shout-irc.com/
[09:34] <Maaz> Kilos: One learns a new thing every day
[09:34] <superfly> heh. was JUST doing that, Kilos
[09:35] <superfly> Maaz: web based IRC client
[09:35] <Maaz> http://shout-irc.com/
[09:35] <Kilos> oh my
[09:35] <Kilos> i beat you for once
[09:35] <Kilos> gonna rain
[09:35] <Kilos> snow
[09:35] <Kilos> hail
[09:37] <Kilos> what does this mean ? The self-hosted web IRC client
[09:37] <Kilos> self hosted is here on pc?
[09:37] <zeorin> magespawn: you're interesting in CoderDojo?
[09:37] <Maaz> zeorin: By the way, magespawn on freenode told me "tell zeorin i will be in jhb soon, maybe that coderdojo can get off the ground" 21 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes and 9 seconds ago
[09:38] <zeorin> Maaz: thanks, just saw that
[09:38] <Maaz> zeorin: no problemo
[09:38] <zeorin> Got ZNC set up...
[09:38] <inetpro> 'shout-irc' is a horrible combination of words to search for
[09:38] <zeorin> Was down with the 'flu for a full 7 days...
[09:38] <Kilos> sjoe
[09:39] <TinuvaMac> i got the flu shot this year when discovery did it with uber
[09:39] <TinuvaMac> havent been sick yet this year
[09:39] <zeorin> It was no joke. Makes you appreciate just feeling normal.
[09:40] <TinuvaMac> believe that, i hate being sick
[09:40] <TinuvaMac> so have started to do a few things to try and help prevent getting sick this year
[09:40] <TinuvaMac> 1) immune system booster with probiotics
[09:40] <TinuvaMac> 2) flu shot
[09:41] <TinuvaMac> will see if it works
[09:41] <Kilos> probiotics are good
[09:41] <zeorin> I work from home, so it's usually not much of an issue. I didn't hold much truck with 'flu shots in the past, but since medicine has essentially been creating "superbugs" over time with strong antibiotics and vaccines, perhaps I can't get away from it anymore.
[09:43] <Kilos> eat lots of raw onion on sarmies etc and in salads and take regular vitc and you wont get flu
[09:47] <bushtech> or eat lots of garlic. None of the flu spreading people will get near you
[09:48] <superfly> TinuvaMac: Last year the Flu shot had a 15% effectiveness. Just an FYI
[09:49] <superfly> TinuvaMac: also, a little known fact about the flu shot is that it's made based on what the pharmaceuticals guess will be the predominent strain of flu
[09:49] <zeorin> Does anyone have any experience with the Asterisk PBX software?
[09:49] <superfly> magespawn: ^^ weren't you playing with Asterisk?
[09:49] <zeorin> I'm trying to help a small non-profit move away from Telkom for their phone solution
[09:50] <superfly> zeorin: where are they based?
[09:50] <zeorin> I've got lots of Linux experience, but telephony is a bit new to me
[09:50] <zeorin> They're based in Alberton
[09:50] <Kilos> bushtech well said
[09:50] <Kilos> garlic is a natural antibiotic
[09:50] <Kilos> and parsley stops you smelling
 self hosted is here on pc?
[09:51] <superfly> It means you run it yourself on your own server.
[09:51] <Kilos> superfly i mean self hosted means i will have it here on my pc
[09:52] <superfly> Kilos: yes, or your server, or wherever. It means you do it yourself.
[09:52] <Kilos> ty
[09:55] <gremble> Good morning
[09:55] <superfly> Only just
[10:01] <gremble> I am trying to wish time to a standstill. I am ill and really don't want to drive in to campus at 13:00
[10:07] <theblazehen> gremble: I know how that feels.. :/
[10:11] <Kilos> eish gremble
[10:14] <magespawn> superfly yes
[10:15] <magespawn> zeorin: what is the problem?
[10:16] <TinuvaMac> superfly: yeah i did read up a lot on the flu shot. It still seemed better to do, than not doing it
[10:18] <superfly> TinuvaMac: uh, right.
[10:19] <superfly> TinuvaMac: did you read the package insert? Who made the flu shot you got?
[10:19] <magespawn> never had one of those
[10:20] <TinuvaMac> superfly: i have not, but I am sure you going to give me more interesting tidbits about it
[10:21] <superfly> TinuvaMac: nope, I just wanted to know so that I could find out what's in it.
[10:21] <TinuvaMac> i feel pretty good, and thats after a bunch of people here at work was already sick at work
[10:21] <TinuvaMac> it would be whatever dischem used this year in april
[10:21] <magespawn> zeorin: i am also interested in coderdojo, i will be up there on the 23rd first day on the new job is the 24th
[10:21] <magespawn> so after a little while to settle in
[10:35] <superfly> TinuvaMac: Apparently Dischem uses Vaxigrip: http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/consumers/cmi/v/vaxigrip.pdf
[10:48] <magespawn> zeorin: i would recommend either of these https://www.freepbx.org/ or http://www.asterisk.org/downloads the AsteriskNOW at the bottom of the page
[10:49] <magespawn> They are essentially the same thing, all built on asterisk, but with a web based gui interface
[10:57] <gremble> Alright. I am off. See everyone later.
[10:58] <Kilos> gof luck lad
[10:58] <Kilos> good
[10:58] <Kilos> stay awake
[10:59] <TinuvaMac> superfly: thank you for that link
[11:00] <TinuvaMac> luckily i only had the sore muscles, none of the worse side effects
[11:08] <superfly> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/17/no_slack_for_open_sourcers/
[11:08] <superfly> inetpro, Kilos ^^
[11:25] <zeorin> magespawn: Sorry, my power was out for a while… I'm planning to use AsteriskNOW. My real question is around the hardware requirements. I've already asked around on the #asterisk channel about whether what I need can be done with Asterisk (apparently it's dead simple). It's a sequential call forwarding thing I need: if someone calls the NPO, then forward to number 1, if that person doesn't answer,
[11:25] <zeorin> forward to number 2, etc. until someone either picks up or we run out of numbers to try (In which case take a message).
[11:26] <zeorin> Since this is a small NPO, the computer we want to use for this is actually the archives computer. Which runs Windows. So I'll have to virtualize AsteriskNOW. They've already got a phone line, I imagine we'll need one more so the system can call out.
[11:27] <zeorin> During office hours there should be no call forwarding and instead the call should go through to the receptionist.
[11:28] <zeorin> I don't know what specific hardware I'm gonna need. How powerful of a processor, how much RAM, which PSTN card (I imagine I'll need 2 FXO ports and one FXS port).
[11:32] <zeorin> I also imagine that a regular Telkom phone line is an analogue line?
[11:37] <superfly> yes
[11:38] <superfly> zeorin: it may be easier and cheaper to look into a hosted solution
[11:42] <superfly> we use these guys for our work phone system: http://africanaxess.co.za/
[11:42] <magespawn> the fxo/fxs cards for the computer can be expensive, espcially the digium cards, miro has the equipment here in sa
[11:43] <magespawn> i have also used granstream equipment, i will get the model for you in a sec
[11:44] <magespawn> grandstream GXW-4104
[11:45] <magespawn> http://www.grandstream.com/products/gateways-and-atas/analog-voip-gateways/product/gxw4104/4108
[11:50] <who_da_fly> hi :-)
[11:50] <zeorin> magespawn: I've drawn up a little explantion of what we want it for: http://pastebin.com/PFnhN8md
[11:50]  * who_da_fly prods inetpro
[11:50] <inetpro> ouch!
[11:50] <inetpro> what was that for?
[11:51] <who_da_fly> inetpro: it's called Shout-IRC
[11:51] <Kilos> who_da_fly and now?
[11:51] <who_da_fly> just running it locally
[11:51] <Kilos> haha
[11:51] <Kilos> whats with all the reading about slack superfly
[11:51] <Kilos> irc works for us
[11:52] <who_da_fly> Kilos yes, I know, but we were playing with Mattermost
[11:52] <Kilos> oh yes
[11:52] <Kilos> id forgotten that
[11:52] <who_da_fly> Kilos and that article is basically saying the same thing as me: don't use Slack for OSS.
[11:52] <who_da_fly> (and don't use Github for the same reason - it's ultimately controlled by a company)
[11:52] <zeorin> Mattermost is better anyway
[11:53] <zeorin> It's ahead of Slack in features
[11:53] <zeorin> Just like GitLab is ahead of Github in features.
[11:53] <inetpro> who_da_fly: I will chat later
[11:54] <who_da_fly> zeorin: exactly :-)
[12:05] <who_da_fly> let me see if I can set up a different theme
[12:10] <Kilos> superfly whats with the npm
[12:10] <Kilos> sudo npm install -g shout
[12:10] <superfly> Kilos: don't do it
[12:10] <Kilos> do we use apt there or what
[12:10] <superfly> Kilos: no, just don't do it.
[12:10] <Kilos> ok
[12:11] <Kilos> i did and it said command not found
[12:11] <superfly> Yes, it's better that way. Trust me on this.
[12:11] <Kilos> ok ty
[12:12] <Kilos> lol is it spyware or something
[12:12] <superfly> No, it's a developer tool, and the way everyone uses npm is BAD
[12:12] <Kilos> ok
[12:13] <Kilos> ill stick with what i know how to use
[12:13] <who_da_fly> mmm
[12:13] <who_da_fly> that's much better
[12:13] <zeorin> npm is a package manager for node scripts
[12:14] <zeorin> Node-land still has a lot of maturing to do
[12:14] <zeorin> Source: I'm a web developer
[12:14] <who_da_fly> zeorin: and that's fine. as long as you (a) know how to use it properly and (b) don't listen to anyone in npm-land
[12:15] <who_da_fly> "npm install -g" is just made of pain
[12:16] <zeorin> I use it a lot, but I wouldn't think it appropriate for general software installation. For managing a web project's javascript dependencies, it's far more appropriate (although you need to be descerning about what you're depending upon).
[12:16] <who_da_fly> this ^^^
[12:16] <zeorin> I'll `sudo npm install -g` things like cordova, babel, etc. Things that actually have to do with web development.
[12:16] <Xethron> Greetings!
[12:17] <who_da_fly> zeorin: don't do that if you're on Linux, you're just waiting for a disaster.
[12:17] <who_da_fly> hi Xethron!
[12:17] <zeorin> who_da_fly: it's been alright so far. What linux-specific problems have you encountered?
[12:17] <Xethron> Uncapped fiber internet, superfast, superfly :D
[12:18] <zeorin> Vumatel was just here 10 minutes ago installing a box in our apartment block
[12:18] <who_da_fly> zeorin: your package management system doesn't know about it. when you upgrade stuff WILL break.
[12:18] <Kilos> spoiled Xethron
[12:18] <who_da_fly> Xethron: nice!
[12:18] <zeorin> Xethron, we'll be joining you soon
[12:19] <zeorin> who_da_fly: I see what you mean. But as long as I keep it to web development-only stuff it's not an issue.
[12:19] <Xethron> Was actually just mocking superfly :P But it just arrived at my neighbourhood, so looking who to signup with
[12:20] <zeorin> pip, easy_install, composer, rubygems, pecl all have that same problem
[12:20] <zeorin> Yet if you don't install general software with them it's fine.
[12:20] <who_da_fly> zeorin: I install things locally. If I want to use a NodeJS based application, I make a directory for it, and "npm install <package>" in that directory.
[12:20] <Xethron> Coz I only have 4mb adsl :( So, time to get something thats a bit faster
[12:20] <who_da_fly> zeorin: exactly, that's why you use virtualenv
[12:21] <zeorin> Node has nvm
[12:21] <zeorin> same thing
[12:21] <Xethron> composer > npm
[12:21] <who_da_fly> I steer clear of Ruby and PHP.
[12:21] <Xethron> :O
[12:21] <Xethron> What do you have against PHP?
[12:21] <who_da_fly> Xethron: How long do you want me to rant for? days or weeks?
[12:21] <Xethron> rofl
[12:22] <Kilos> haha
[12:22] <zeorin> I was at the JHB PHP conference when Rasmus Lerdorf was there
[12:22] <Kilos> thats my fly
[12:22] <magespawn> zeorin i can't remember what the required specs are, but i ran into problems with a virtual machine inside windows running linux
[12:22] <Xethron> Every language has its pro's and cons.
[12:22] <Xethron> zeorin: Oohh, I spoke briefly at that conference
[12:22] <zeorin> I had an interesting discussion with him about the 'flaws' of PHP
[12:23] <who_da_fly> Xethron: Just a pity PHP's pros is 1 item: leaving PHP
[12:23] <magespawn> the machine only had 2 gig of ram, one for the host and the other for the virtual machine
[12:23] <zeorin> PHP is considered to have an inconsistent API with function parameters, etc.
[12:23] <zeorin> It's actually not inconsistent
[12:23] <magespawn> and it is worth noting that the linux and asterisk ran fine, it was the windows that started to struggle
[12:24] <who_da_fly> https://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/7095238893/
[12:24] <Xethron> zeorin: true, but thats a simple excuse. That was true back in the day when PHP was just a wrapper language. Now, its just an inconsistent API...
[12:24] <magespawn> it is running a mysql database for the company stock system
[12:24] <zeorin> PHP was designed as a glue language, and it consistently maps functions to the underlying technology, e.g. database calls, etc.
[12:25] <magespawn> lol @ who_da_fly
[12:25] <zeorin> When PHP was introduced, people were used to calling those underlying techs directly, so doing that way made sense, people's knowledge translated nicely to PHP
[12:25] <magespawn> zeorin: ^^
[12:25] <Xethron> PHP is sometimes difficult to write without an intelligent IDE. But its still the quickest way to spin up a site
[12:25] <who_da_fly> Xethron: if you can't write code without and IDE, either there's something wrong with you, or with the language you're using. You pick.
[12:25] <zeorin> The different underling technologies obviously didn't follow a universal naming convention, so it only seems like PHP is inconsistent.
[12:26] <Xethron> who_da_fly: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0804/9375/products/black.png?v=1453904840
[12:26] <zeorin> But it was a well-thought out, considered decision, that contributed to it's quick uptake
[12:26] <who_da_fly> zeorin: the reality is that PHP's API is inconsistent because it has no design
[12:27] <zeorin> It does, its design is to follow the underlying API
[12:27] <who_da_fly> it's a bunch of cobbled together rubbish pretending to be a decent programming language
[12:27] <zeorin> Yes
[12:27] <who_da_fly> zeorin: why? That's not the point of a programming language
[12:27] <Xethron> who_da_fly: I do agree that PHP has some problems with its consistency, however, if a good friend comes to you and says: Dude, I only have R500, can you help me get a site up and running... What language would you choose?
[12:27]  * Kilos goes to get some UVs
[12:27] <zeorin> But before PHP, people were doing CGI gateways in C or Perl
[12:27] <zeorin> *shudder*
[12:27] <Xethron> You'd be stupid not to choose PHP
[12:27] <zeorin> Which *were* proper programming languages
[12:28] <Xethron> Because it works on almost any server, and you can get a decent thing up and running in less than a day
[12:28] <zeorin> It was meant to be a glue language
[12:28] <who_da_fly> Xethron: I'd tell him to go somewhere else. I'm worth WAY more than R500.
[12:28] <Xethron> I said a "Good" friend
[12:28] <Xethron> Or your Dad, or Mom
[12:28] <who_da_fly> Xethron: No.
[12:28] <Xethron> :P
[12:29] <Xethron> Haters gonne hate
[12:29] <who_da_fly> I had a good friend ask me about *spit* WordPress *spit*
[12:29] <who_da_fly> I told her to ask someone else.
[12:29] <zeorin> Also, the needle/haystack parameter ordering: *does* have a consistent design: array functions: $needle, $haystack; string functions: $haystack, $needle;
[12:29] <magespawn> zeorin: AsteriskNow is centos based FYI
[12:29] <who_da_fly> Xethron: dude, program in a real language, and then say that
[12:29] <Xethron> I think PHP has its place. And currently I'm very happy with it. But love languages like Ruby and Python too
[12:30] <who_da_fly> zeorin: except in the case of some array functions, where it's the opposite.
[12:30] <Xethron> who_da_fly: Ok, whats a "real" language for web?
[12:30] <who_da_fly> Xethron: Python
[12:30] <who_da_fly> (of course)
[12:30] <Xethron> lol
[12:30] <who_da_fly> or, if you're me, a site generator like Nikola
[12:30] <who_da_fly> (which happens to be written in Python)
[12:31] <magespawn> notice the trend here?
[12:31] <Xethron> I might rather go with Go or Node before I go through all the hassles of getting Python to work for web
[12:31] <zeorin> Anyway I'm not PHP's greatest fan. But it's not right to say it's got no design. It does. It's just that everyone's first intro to PHP as a n00b never told you about the underlying thinking so it seems random
[12:31] <who_da_fly> Xethron: um, Go or Node are even more difficult to get running than Python.
[12:31] <zeorin> And because it was initially a glue language, they didn't have all the features. If you needed them you'd code it in C or C++ and glue it up with PHP
[12:32] <who_da_fly> zeorin: so why haven't we moved on from there? even Python did.
[12:32] <zeorin> So after all the newbs (myself included) learned it, those features were demanded in the language itself.
[12:32] <who_da_fly> http://www.phpsadness.com/sad/6
[12:32] <zeorin> And they're busy doing that.
[12:32] <who_da_fly> http://www.phpsadness.com/sad/15
[12:32] <zeorin> PHP is much like JS nowadays in that it's a great language if you ignore the bad parts
[12:32] <who_da_fly> http://www.phpsadness.com/sad/4
[12:32] <Xethron> PHP 7 has addressed most of my concerns
[12:33] <zeorin> *cough* unicode *cough*
[12:33] <who_da_fly> zeorin: or you can use a language whose bad parts don't make up 80% of the language
[12:33] <zeorin> I love JavaScript the most
[12:33] <zeorin> that 20% of good parts is amazing.
[12:33] <Xethron> zeorin: trying to get into ES6 now
[12:34] <who_da_fly> zeorin: I prefer the 80% of good parts of Python which is even more amazing.
[12:34] <Xethron> haha
[12:35] <Xethron> Well at least PHP hasn't had a severe backwards compattibility break that split the community into two :P
[12:35] <magespawn> zeorin: also you can route the outgoing calls through a voip provider or some other service
[12:36] <Xethron> Anyway, these arguments is about as pointless as Browser wars. Use the one you like most
[12:36] <who_da_fly> Xethron: hardly. Most Python packages these days are compatible with BOTH versions, and the only ones that are still only Python 2 are the ones that have a lot of C code in them (numpy, scipy)
[12:36] <Xethron> Leave others to use the ones you don't
[12:36] <who_da_fly> Xethron: if PHP had to do that, it would be far worse than Python.
[12:38] <zeorin> Xethron: ES6 is cool, but Classes are evil: https://medium.com/javascript-scene/the-two-pillars-of-javascript-ee6f3281e7f3
[12:38] <zeorin> Don't use them. Prototypal Inheritance >>> Classes
[12:41] <zeorin> The other thing I love about JS, and here it's really got every other language beat, is that it can run pretty much anywhere. If you know about progressive enhancement and universal javascript (JS that executes either on the server or client depending on the client's capabilities), if you know about NW.js or Electron, if you know about Phonegap/Cordova, you can create an app with a single codebase for
[12:41] <zeorin> client, server, mobile app, desktop app, even monochrome WAP phones, your toaster, etc.
[12:42] <zeorin> I know of no other language that can do that.
[12:43] <who_da_fly> zeorin: and it's just as dog slow everywhere.
[12:43] <zeorin> JS is plenty fast.  They figure an ISDN line is a better option not only for line availability while forwarding is in progress, but also because then it's easier to know whether a call's been answered, etc.
[12:50] <magespawn> never thought about that
[12:51] <zeorin> So I've decided to put a pin in the self-hosted PBX idea for now. I know a guy that's got experience with Asterisk and telephony that's recently become involved in this non-profit. I'll involve him. (Delegation is a wonderful skill).
[12:53] <Kilos> haha
[12:55] <Xethron> zeorin: Whats your name?
[12:55] <Xethron> I believe we possibly met at the PHP Conference if you where there
[12:55] <zeorin> Xandor Schiefer
[12:56] <zeorin> Quite possible. I'm the opinionated front-end guy ☺
[12:56] <Xethron> Ah yes
[12:56] <Xethron> Dunno if you remember the dude from MDS Collivery that made a fool of himself on stage :P
[12:56] <zeorin> Oh right. I don't think you were a fool
[12:57] <Xethron> Haha, I felt like one
[12:57] <zeorin> Actually I think it's a great service
[12:57] <zeorin> Impostor syndrome
[12:57] <Xethron> But have been speaking at every PHP conference since, so its fun
[12:57] <zeorin> Don't believe the impostor syndrome. If you know even just a little bit more than another person about something, you're the expert.
[12:58] <magespawn> np zeorin
[13:02] <MaNI> but how do you know that you know more? :)
[13:03] <MaNI> Dunning–Kruger :p
[13:03] <zeorin> MaNI: you did the talk on that adobe flash format alternative to JSON, didn't you?
[13:04] <zeorin> What was that called?
[13:04] <MaNI> nope not me
[13:10] <zeorin> For some reason I read Dunning-Kruger as reminding me of Danny Kopping
[13:19] <MaNI> hehe
[13:33] <who_da_fly> hi MaNI, how's the solar panels going?
[13:34] <who_da_fly> inetpro: by the way, there's a fork of Shout called TheLounge. They're continuing development where the original guy has kinda faded.
[13:38] <MaNI> heh - still going strong - but still not on my roof, the universe is conspiring to prevent me from getting any further with them :p
[13:41] <who_da_fly> :-(
[13:41] <who_da_fly> alright, enough playing for now. TheLounge/Shout is nice. Must set it up for #ubuntu-za
[13:42] <superfly> "Developers like Koçulu got a little reminder that the NPM project is ultimately corporate-controlled. It will make decisions in its best interest, which may not be in every developer's best interest. It's a not so subtle reminder for Koala and other NPM developers that they serve at the pleasure of the king, in this case NPM Inc. For his part, Koçulu clearly got the message; he referred to deleting his code as "liberating" it. It's now
[13:42] <superfly> hosted with Github. Another large corporation."
[13:43] <superfly> so much of this...
[13:45] <magespawn> superfly: can github do what they want with the code?
[13:45] <superfly> magespawn: in essence, yes
[14:03] <magespawn> hmmm there is some fine print for you
[14:08] <magespawn> but i would suppose that is the case for a lot of those services
[14:09] <superfly> at the end of the day, you're storing your data on someone else's hard drive. what's to stop them doing something with it?
[14:10] <superfly> or just ending the service so that you're stuck high and dry?
[14:25] <magespawn> indeed, just their T&C's really, always keep a backup
[14:28] <MaNI> these days you can't even be sure your OS isn't going to do something with your data
[14:29] <MaNI> but yes trusting non opensource code hosting to a third party seems somewhat risky
[14:33] <magespawn> home time, chat later all
[15:23] <Kilos> yes thank you , and you?
[15:23] <Kilos> haha channel switch
[15:23] <Kilos> NaSb i answered here
[15:23] <Kilos> some key i touch switches channels
[15:26] <NaSb> :p hmm right !
[16:32] <Kilos> wb bushtech
[16:47] <Symmetria> mmm sup
[16:48] <Kilos> hi Symmetria
[16:48] <Symmetria> Kilos, how much bandwidth you on?
[16:48] <Kilos> explain that in english
[16:49] <Kilos> hehe
[16:49] <Kilos> amount of data or speed
[16:49] <Kilos> ive never twigged what bandwidth actually is
[16:49] <Symmetria> lol, I wanna test something but unless you've got reasonable speed it wont work
[16:49] <Kilos> lemme do a speedtest
[16:51] <Kilos> http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/5332647034
[16:54] <Kilos> too  slow Symmetria ?
[16:59] <Kilos> i go eat
[17:14] <qwebirc16759> Good Day
[17:14] <qwebirc16759> anyone online from the cape town area?
[17:16] <theblazehen> hey qwebirc16759
[17:16] <theblazehen> andrewlsd is, but he's not here now
[17:16] <qwebirc16759> hi theblazehen
[17:17] <qwebirc16759> i am very new to this
[17:17] <qwebirc16759> i need some help with ubuntu
[17:17] <theblazehen> What's up?
[17:17] <qwebirc16759> is this the right place for me to ask ?
[17:17] <theblazehen> yeah
[17:18] <qwebirc16759> ok so i want to setup a proxy server for my small office
[17:19] <theblazehen> Okay
[17:19] <qwebirc16759> i found a nice tutorial at https://aacable.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/lusca-automated-install-script/
[17:19] <qwebirc16759> i downloaded ubuntu 12,04 server and installed it on virtual box
[17:19] <qwebirc16759> follwed the tut setup by setup
[17:19] <qwebirc16759> everything when perfect no error message nothing
[17:20] <qwebirc16759> then i made some changes in squid.conf to allow my network access to the proxy
[17:20] <qwebirc16759> when i check the access.log file i can see that its working and there is hit
[17:20] <qwebirc16759> but the problem is i dont know ubuntu
[17:21] <Symmetria> heh Kilos sorry went onto a call
[17:21] <theblazehen> Okay
[17:21] <Symmetria> :) will have to test at another time because this call wil go on for next 7 hours :(
[17:21] <qwebirc16759> so i can see its working with my basic know how
[17:21] <theblazehen> First of all, 12.04 is really old, I'd suggest 16.04 or at least 14.04
[17:21] <qwebirc16759> but to be honest i know what i am looking at
[17:21] <theblazehen> What exactly is this LUSCA?
[17:22] <Symmetria> so question, does anyone here use Neotel for internet connectivity
[17:22] <Symmetria> Im curious to hear comments about their reliability and speeds etc
[17:22] <qwebirc16759> the script in the link i posted only works on 12.04
[17:22] <qwebirc16759> i tried the latest version
[17:23] <theblazehen> https://github.com/krakenjs/lusca is this the lusca that is being referred to?
[17:23] <qwebirc16759> correct
[17:23] <qwebirc16759> this is what i get from the site "Lusca is a fork of the Squid-2 development tree. The Lusca project aims to fix the shortcomings in the Squid-2 codebase whilst maintaining the the Squid-2 functionality and stability. :
[17:24] <theblazehen> Okay. Wish I could help, But I have *a lot* of work to do. If you don't figure it out, I'll probably be able to help you out either tomorrow night or thursday
[17:24] <theblazehen> Maybe someone else here can help?
[17:25] <qwebirc16759> ok not a problem
[17:26] <qwebirc16759> should i just make contact with your on the irc
[17:27] <theblazehen> Yeah, or email
[17:27] <theblazehen> Will pm you email address
[17:29] <Symmetria> ouch, because of advances in tech, it used to be 3000 servers to 1 admin in 2008
[17:29] <Symmetria> its now at 50k servers to 1 admin in 2015
[17:29] <Symmetria> and thats growing
[17:30] <Symmetria> because of automation
[17:30] <Symmetria> thats not good for people in the sysadmin game
[17:30] <Kilos> qwebirc16759 welcome to ubuntu-za
[17:31] <Kilos> just hang a while one of the experts will help you
[17:31] <qwebirc16759> ok now to sound like a cabbage, this is my first time here and first time working with ubuntu where will i see the PM?
[17:32] <qwebirc16759> hi Kilos
[17:32] <theblazehen> qwebirc16759: You using a web client?
[17:32] <qwebirc16759> thanks i will hang
[17:32] <theblazehen> Bar at the top maybe?
[17:32] <Kilos> oh im the webclient im not sure
[17:32] <qwebirc16759> yes using web client
[17:32] <theblazehen> it's my username here @ username dot com
[17:32] <Kilos> s/im/in
[17:32] <theblazehen> Don't wanna write out in full, channel is logged
[17:32] <theblazehen> don't want spam
[17:33] <magespawn> good evening
[17:33] <Kilos> theblazehen is clued up as well
[17:33] <Kilos> magespawn
[17:33] <theblazehen> hey magespawn
[17:33] <Kilos> help qwebirc16759
[17:33] <Kilos> the where you going
[17:34] <Kilos> you multitask so well
[17:34] <theblazehen> Kilos: I broke stuff
[17:34] <theblazehen> And I have lots of other work too
[17:34] <Kilos> oh my
[17:34] <theblazehen> So fixing and working :(
[17:34] <Kilos> sjoe
[17:35] <theblazehen> Probably lost a few k USD in sales
[17:35] <magespawn> what didnyou break?
[17:35] <theblazehen> Well, not just probably
[17:35] <Kilos> qwebirc16759 are you on ubuntu at the moment
[17:35] <magespawn> ouch
[17:35] <theblazehen> magespawn: All sites for e commerce company :/
[17:35] <qwebirc16759> yes
[17:35] <theblazehen> Down for the weekend
[17:35] <Kilos> shhhhh theblazehen fix it man
[17:35] <magespawn> ouch
[17:36] <magespawn> but today is tuesday?
[17:36] <qwebirc16759> i setup server 12.04 in virtual box
[17:36] <Kilos> magespawn hyou missed qwebirc16759 s problem
[17:36] <qwebirc16759> to test the proxy
[17:36] <theblazehen> magespawn: Yes.. :( weekend + yesterday
[17:37] <magespawn> i see theblazehen, i thought this was something that just happened
[17:37] <magespawn> qwebirc16759: whatnis the problem?
[17:37] <Kilos> magespawn can you read the logs from 19.14
[17:38] <Kilos> he explained it all
[17:38] <theblazehen> Nope. Something must have broken, did bind mounts before because didn't want to take things down for updates and stuff.. Rebooted server on friday night or so
[17:38] <Kilos> or i can bin it for you
[17:38] <qwebirc16759> HI magespawn
[17:38] <magespawn> on my phone at the moment so bin it please
[17:38] <qwebirc16759> i need help understanding how things work in ubuntu server
[17:39] <magespawn> hi qwebirc16759
[17:39] <theblazehen> Maaz: Coffe on
[17:39] <Maaz> theblazehen: Huh?
[17:39] <theblazehen> Maaz: Coffee on
[17:39]  * Maaz flips the salt-timer
[17:39] <magespawn> will help if i can
[17:39] <theblazehen> 1 caffiene overdose please
[17:39] <magespawn> Maaz coffee please
[17:39] <Maaz> magespawn: Sure
[17:39] <magespawn> Maaz large please
[17:39] <Maaz> magespawn: Excuse me?
[17:40] <magespawn> i thought that used to work
[17:40] <qwebirc16759> @megespawn let me try and explain my self a bit better
[17:40] <Kilos> magespawn https://bin.snyman.info/mmmzxcax
[17:40] <qwebirc16759> i need a proxy server
[17:40] <Kilos> Maaz coffee please
[17:40] <Maaz> Kilos: Yessir
[17:40] <magespawn> okay qwebirc16759 so squid?
[17:40] <Kilos> qwebirc16759 first lets get you on a proper irc client
[17:40] <qwebirc16759> after doing some internest research in found this https://aacable.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/lusca-automated-install-script/
[17:41] <qwebirc16759> now after following the tut i managed to get exerything installed and but my limited knowlege it looks like it working
[17:41] <Kilos> then you can hang out here daily
[17:42] <qwebirc16759> ok now how are we getting me a irc
[17:42] <Kilos> sudo apt install hexchat
[17:42] <Kilos> you on 14.04 or later
[17:42] <qwebirc16759> is there one for windows ?
[17:43] <qwebirc16759> i am currenty on a windows machine
[17:43] <qwebirc16759> and i have ubuntu server running in virtual machine
[17:43] <Kilos> yes hexchat for windows
[17:43] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for theblazehen, magespawn and Kilos!
[17:43] <Kilos> Maaz ty
[17:43] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[17:44] <Kilos> qwebirc16759 https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjvvbjD1OHMAhVLJcAKHZpSCIgQFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhexchat.github.io%2Fdownloads.html&usg=AFQjCNEIPzsd_xl_SSFEKWzso2alMvkZZw&sig2=b95AcPmh0qGfFI0-FPpn0g
[17:45] <Kilos> shout when its installed
[17:45] <magespawn> okay i have read the bin of the previous conversation
[17:45] <theblazehen> Maaz: ty
[17:45] <Maaz> You are welcome theblazehen
[17:45] <theblazehen> Maaz: Coffee on
[17:45]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[17:46] <Kilos> Maaz coffee please
[17:46] <Maaz> Kilos: Okay
[17:46] <Kilos> Maaz large
[17:46] <Maaz> In a beer mug just for you Kilos
[17:46] <Kilos> ok magespawn will you take over with qwebirc16759 please
[17:48] <magespawn> what is not working qwebirc16759 ?
[17:49] <Kilos> help him setup hexchat too please mage
[17:49] <Kilos> where the tab went
[17:49] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for theblazehen and Kilos!
[17:49] <Kilos> Maaz danke
[17:49] <Maaz> Bitteschön
[17:50] <magespawn> now you are straining my brain Kilos
[17:50] <paddatrapper> Hey qwebirc16759. I'm from CT, but not much help at the moment with troubleshooting. Perhaps if you're still stuck when I'm back home later
[17:50] <Kilos> you have one
[17:50] <Kilos> hehe
[17:52] <Kilos> basics are when it opens scroll down to freenode then tick edit on the right
[17:52] <qwebirc16759> hi paddatrapper thanks for the heads up
[17:52] <Kilos> add chat.freenode.net
[17:53] <Kilos> then below that add channel #ubuntu-za
[17:53] <Kilos> somewhere you enter your irc nickname
[17:54] <Kilos> i need to brushup on hexchat
[17:54] <Kilos> gremble how you feeling now?
[17:54] <Kilos> dont say with your hands
[18:00] <qwebirc1675-2> ok i am on hexchat now
[18:00] <magespawn> okay cool beans
[18:00] <Kilos> ok choose a nickname
[18:01] <Kilos> then type in  /nick newnick
[18:01] <Kilos> hi hound
[18:01] <hound> hehe
[18:01] <Kilos> over to you magespawn
[18:01] <hound> he's my fav autobot
[18:02] <Kilos> someone else has it registered
[18:02] <Guest89983> uhmm
[18:02] <Kilos> haha
[18:03] <Guest89983> hound-wp
[18:03] <Kilos> freenode should tell you if its registered
[18:03] <Kilos> if not register it
[18:04] <hound-wp> nothing came up yet
[18:04] <hound-wp> so i guess hound-wp it is
[18:04] <Kilos>   /msg nickserv register password email addy
[18:05] <Kilos> i hope thats the right command
[18:06] <hound-wp> ... i am drawing a blank now should i type in "/mgs nickserv register <myPassword> <myE-mail>"
[18:06] <Kilos> yes
[18:07] <Kilos> sorry im the greeter bot here i dont add fancy characters
[18:07] <Kilos> im a basic text bot
[18:08] <hound-wp> ok thats done didnt get any error message back
[18:08] <gremble> Hey Kilos. Just got home. Not feeling great but I have meds now
[18:08] <Kilos> w000t
[18:08] <Kilos> rest gremble
[18:08] <Kilos> how did the exam go
[18:10] <Kilos> ok magespawn the hound is yours
[18:10] <Kilos> skokkk jy baie still ne
[18:10] <gremble> I think it went well.
[18:11] <gremble> I knew the answers, so that is good.
[18:11] <Kilos> great then swallow 4 aspirin and sweat it out under lotsa blankets
[18:12] <gremble> That is the plan.
[18:13] <gremble> Found out that I have a calculus project to do, so I am going to read through it and mull over it in bed.
[18:13] <gremble> Should be free marks, and that is always nice
[18:13] <Kilos> sjoe
[18:13] <Kilos> yeah
[18:14] <Kilos> good luck with it all
[18:14] <Kilos> go to bed now
[18:14] <gremble> Yup. Cheers
[18:14] <Kilos> hehe
[18:15] <superfly> hound-wp: check the "freenode" item in your channel list
[18:16] <hound-wp> superfly
[18:16] <hound-wp> what about it
[18:16] <hound-wp> what am i looking at
[18:17] <superfly> hound-wp: that's messages from the IRC server itself. you can also look for a "user" called NickServ. If you use /msg NickServ, the NickServ bot will talk to you privately
[18:26] <Langjan> Hi kil
[18:26] <Kilos> hi Langjan
[18:26] <Langjan> Kilos, hoe gaan dit met jou?
[18:26] <Kilos> your tab broke
[18:26] <Kilos> goed dankie en self
[18:26] <Langjan> no I missed it
[18:26] <Kilos> haha
[18:27] <Langjan> ook goed dankie
[18:27] <Langjan> I miss then I mess, hit caps lock instead
[18:27] <Kilos> i do the same
[18:27] <Kilos> must be an age thing
[18:28] <Langjan> Great minds miss alike...
[18:28] <Kilos> fools never differ
[18:28] <Langjan> now youve ruined the frinedship
[18:28] <Kilos> hahahaha
[18:28] <Langjan> lmga
[18:28] <Langjan> About susans machine
[18:29] <magespawn> it happens
[18:29] <Kilos> yes?
[18:29] <Langjan> did the battery thing but nothing changed in bios
[18:29] <Langjan> seems to boot better though
[18:29] <Langjan> but sometimes opens in black screen with terminal
[18:29] <Kilos> what was the problem again?
[18:30] <Langjan> did not always boot
[18:30] <Langjan> had to try 2-3 times
[18:30] <Kilos> sudo aptitude reinstall ubuntu-desktop
[18:31] <magespawn> Maaz tell hound-wp sorry did not see the pm
[18:31] <Maaz> magespawn: Sure, I'll tell hound-wp on freenode
[18:31] <Langjan> ok you re ckon that will sort it, will try tomorrow
[18:31] <Kilos> and grub-pc and grub-pc-bin
[18:31] <Kilos> so one long command
[18:32] <Kilos> sudo aptitude reinstall ubuntu-desktop grub-pc grub-pc-bin
[18:32] <Langjan> dont know if aptitude is installed
[18:32] <Kilos> then install aptitude first
[18:32] <Langjan> ok will give it a go, thks
[18:33] <Kilos> hope that sorts it
[18:33] <Kilos> you unity peeps
[18:33] <Langjan> Thks will let you know. no news update on visa?
[18:33] <Kilos> what happened qwebirc16759 ?
[18:33] <Kilos> nothing yet Langjan
[18:33] <Kilos> good luck
[18:33] <qwebirc16759> lost connection while testing my proxy setup
[18:33] <Kilos> see you tomorrow then
[18:34] <Langjan> right, slaap lekker en mooi loop
[18:34] <qwebirc16759> any one know how to complety remote ufw from ubuntu
[18:34] <Kilos> and your irc client?
[18:34] <Kilos> jy ook dankie oom
[18:34] <qwebirc16759> uing irc client now
[18:34] <Kilos> sudo apt-get purge ufw
[18:35] <Kilos> you didnt tell it what your nick should be?
[18:35] <qwebirc16759> ok i am more comfortable with IPtables
[18:35] <Kilos> thats the channel login thingie
[18:38] <qwebirc16759> ok so i removed ufw
[18:38] <qwebirc16759> and when i did apt-get install iptables it told me its already install
[18:38] <qwebirc16759> where is the config file for edditing the iptables
[18:38] <qwebirc16759> located
[18:39] <magespawn> ufw us just a front end for iptables
[18:39] <magespawn> s/us/is
[18:40] <qwebirc16759> @megespawn what s/us/is
[18:40] <Kilos> wat nou Langjan ?
[18:40] <qwebirc16759> i am a ubuntu baby
[18:40] <Kilos> thats correcting an error
[18:41] <Kilos> replacing us with is
[18:41] <qwebirc16759> oh... is that like a find and replace command ?
[18:42] <Kilos> no if we make a typo we use s/error/repair
[18:42] <magespawn> sorry just replacing the mistake
[18:42] <qwebirc16759> oh kilos where is the file located for iptables in ubuntu
[18:43] <magespawn> /etc/sysconfig/iptables-config i think
[18:44] <qwebirc16759> nope
[18:44] <qwebirc16759> its not that
[18:45] <magespawn> http://askubuntu.com/questions/378892/where-are-iptabless-rulesets-stored-on-ubuntu-12-04
[18:48] <magespawn> qwebirc16759: that might help
[18:53] <miles_> hmm...
[18:54] <Kilos> just installed hexchat, lekker easy to setup but sound alerts sick on kde
[18:58] <magespawn> and back
[18:58] <Kilos> magespawn you havent got your freenode password in your client
[19:00]  * Kilos needs a reboot
[19:00] <Kilos> wbb
[19:02] <qwebirc16759> has any one here setup a proxy server before
[19:02] <magespawn> no i am on my phone now, but no anyway
[19:02] <qwebirc16759> for caching purpose
[19:03] <Kilos> hmm...
[19:06] <magespawn> i have not, superfly?
[19:06] <magespawn> i think wolfeyes did somethin like that, hey Kilos ?
[19:06] <Kilos> what did i miss magespawn
[19:07] <Kilos> he set up proxies so differnent users on the server had different permissions
[19:07] <magespawn> qwebirc16759: have you had a look at the squid docs?
[19:08] <magespawn> he was using squid if i recall correctly
[19:08] <qwebirc16759> yes i looked at the squid doc's
[19:08] <Kilos> yes i think so
[19:11] <magespawn> so what is not working right?
[19:17] <magespawn> brb
[19:25] <Kilos> i need to sleep guys. good luck qwebirc16759 patience,
[19:26] <Kilos> see  you all tomorrow
[19:26] <qwebirc16759> thanks kilos
[19:26] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[19:26] <qwebirc16759> i am getting somwhere
[19:26] <Kilos> great
[19:26] <Kilos> keep it up and dont be a stranger here ok?
[19:26] <qwebirc16759> pm me your email
[19:26] <Kilos> ok
[19:27] <magespawn> right now qwebirc16759 what seems to be the problem with your squid?
[19:29] <qwebirc16759> squid is working fin
[19:29] <qwebirc16759> fine
[19:29] <qwebirc16759> i am just now understanding how it is working
[19:30] <magespawn> ahh okay, so it is all good then?
[19:30] <qwebirc16759> i have just now managed to get my network flowing though the proxy
[19:32] <Kilos> no rest for the wicked
[19:32] <magespawn> was it not allowing internet traffic at all?
[19:32] <Kilos> ping in irc channel
[19:33] <Kilos> qwebirc16759 after a couple more days you can run ubuntu on everything
[19:34] <magespawn> no of course not
[19:34] <qwebirc16759> yes
[19:34] <qwebirc16759> so from the scrip i have changed the port to 3128 transparent
[19:34] <qwebirc16759> and removed ufw
[19:34] <qwebirc16759> then install iptables-persistant
[19:35] <Kilos> and no firewall
[19:35] <qwebirc16759> and added the the line -A PREROUTING -p tcp  -m tcp -s <IP_ADDRESS>/24 ! -d <IP_ADDRESS> --dport 80 -j REDIRECT --to-ports 3128
[19:35] <qwebirc16759>  to iptables file
[19:35] <Kilos> sjoe you clever
[19:35] <qwebirc16759> then i edited /etc/sysctl.conf to allow forwarding
[19:36] <Kilos> well done
[19:36] <qwebirc16759> Goolge Kilos
[19:36] <Kilos> haha
[19:36] <qwebirc16759> if i know what i am looking for i will know what to ask google
[19:36] <Kilos> google isnt friendly like we are
[19:37] <magespawn> why the redirect?
[19:37] <Kilos> we are here everyday and some are here till late at night'
[19:37] <qwebirc16759> redirect will force port 80 traffic to go through the squid
[19:38] <qwebirc16759> if thats not in the the traffic will just to straight to the router
[19:38] <qwebirc16759> bypassing squid
[19:39] <magespawn> ahh right i see
[19:40] <qwebirc16759> anyone online From CT
[19:40] <magespawn> so then squid will not even get the chance to cache anything
[19:41] <qwebirc16759> what do you mean
[19:41] <magespawn> qwebirc16759: when you have registered your nick it is a good idea to use that one
[19:42] <qwebirc16759> if you dont have the pre-routing rule in you basically bypassing squid
[19:42] <magespawn> then people know who they are talking to
[19:42] <qwebirc16759> i have registerd the nick
[19:42] <qwebirc16759> but evertime i disconnect it lose it
[19:43] <magespawn> your hound-wp nick
[19:43] <qwebirc16759> how do i make it stick
[19:43] <magespawn> yes, but you are here as qwebirc16759
[19:43] <magespawn> what client are you using/
[19:43] <magespawn> ?
[19:44] <qwebirc16759> hexchat
[19:44] <magespawn> i forget with that, but there is usually somewhere to put your nick in, in preferances somewhere
[19:45] <magespawn> now it should also ask youto identify with nickserv
[19:46] <magespawn> with /nickserv identify <password>
[19:46] <hound-wp> it didnt ask me yet
[19:46] <hound-wp> not asking me
[19:46] <magespawn> hmm
[19:47] <Kilos> right in the beginning where you enter channels etc
[19:47] <Kilos> at the top was nicks
[19:47] <magespawn> i also do not always see pm so let me know if you want to pm
[19:47] <hound-wp> whos maaz
[19:49] <Kilos> our bot
[19:49] <hound-wp> oh i though that much
[19:49] <hound-wp> almost had a full on converstion with maaz now
[19:49] <Kilos> he does our meeting minutes etc as well
[19:49] <Kilos> lol
[19:50] <Kilos> if you here tomorrow hound-wp then ill help you join us officially
[19:51] <hound-wp> ok thank
[19:51] <hound-wp> but i will only be availbe night time
[19:51] <Kilos> or if you go to the site again you can join our mailing list and launchpad group
[19:51] <Kilos> thats fine
[19:51] <hound-wp> work doesnt allow much sitting time
[19:51] <Kilos> life happens
[19:52] <magespawn> as is usually the case
[19:52] <Kilos> but good to mix with like minds  too
[19:52] <Kilos> and superfly and paddatrapper and many others are in CT
[19:52] <Kilos> and
[19:52] <hound-wp> guy quick question
[19:52] <hound-wp> how do i setup other channels
[19:52] <Kilos> there is debconf16 there in july
[19:53] <hound-wp> if you dont mind
[19:53] <hound-wp> have a look at https://www.clug.org.za/members/irc-channel/
[19:53] <Kilos> you can add them where you added this one
[19:53] <hound-wp> i want to join that channel
[19:53] <Kilos> you can join from here by typing
[19:54] <Kilos>   /j #clug whatever ther rest id
[19:54] <Kilos> is
[19:54] <Kilos> superfly ^^
[19:54] <Kilos> clug on irc?
[19:54] <Kilos> please
[19:55] <hound-wp> ok i am joined there
[19:55] <hound-wp> but only one person online
[19:55] <Kilos> to add channels in hexchat you separate them with a ,
[19:55] <hound-wp> oh shall i say one person in the list
[19:56] <Kilos> no there must be more
[19:56] <Kilos> i dunno if its clug.za or -za
[19:56] <Kilos> or maybe even another server
[19:56] <Kilos> superfly will tell you
[19:56] <magespawn> i think they are on a different network
[19:57] <Kilos> he is very busy so be patient
[19:57] <hound-wp> ok number went up to 3 now thanks to megaspawn
[19:57] <magespawn> hound-wp: you would have to join irc.atrum.org first
[19:57] <Kilos> lol
[19:57] <theblazehen> Anyone know of a way to send an alarm to my phone from the cli?
[19:58] <Kilos> there must be many there
[19:58] <magespawn> i do not think that is the cape town lug channel
[19:58]  * theblazehen needs to wake up when the copy of backup is complete :(
[19:59] <Kilos> set your fones alarm timer for when you think it will be done theblazehen
[19:59] <theblazehen> Kilos: Idk when it's gonna be done
[19:59] <theblazehen> Different folders etc
[19:59] <Kilos> doesnt it show eta
[19:59] <theblazehen> not rsync
[19:59] <Kilos> ah
[19:59] <theblazehen> And don't want a alarm every 15 min
[19:59] <magespawn> hound-wp: you WILL nedd to join irc.atrum.org first
[20:00] <theblazehen> I can do `beep` but that isn't loud enough
[20:00] <magespawn> usually with /connect irc.atrum.org
[20:00] <magespawn> Kilos: some of the usual suspects are there too
[20:01] <Kilos> where magespawn
[20:02] <magespawn> #clug on irc.atrum.org
[20:02] <Kilos> lol
[20:02] <Kilos> i dont need more channels
[20:02] <Kilos> i cant keep up with the 14 i have now plus pm's
[20:03] <hound-wp> having trouble
[20:03] <magespawn> indeed
[20:03] <magespawn> hound-wp: did you come right there
[20:03] <magespawn> why on earth 14?
[20:03] <hound-wp> no
[20:03] <hound-wp> not at all
[20:03] <Kilos> all uuntu channels
[20:04] <Kilos> 1] Kilos Permission Denied - You're not an IRC operator
[20:04] <magespawn> i am not sure how to get hexchat to connect to more than one irc network
[20:04] <Kilos> wont let me on atrum either with that command
[20:06] <Kilos> magespawn see pm
[20:07] <hound-wp> guy i am out
[20:07] <hound-wp> thanks for all the help
[20:07] <Kilos> sleep tight lad
[20:07] <Kilos> you welcome
[20:09] <magespawn> i see Kilos
[20:10] <Kilos> too many
[20:10] <Kilos> fly and pro killing me
[20:10] <Kilos> see you tomorrow
[20:10] <Kilos> sleep tight
[20:10] <magespawn> nah keeping you busy, good night
[20:10] <magespawn> i am also off, early day tomorrow and the battery is going quickly
[20:11] <magespawn> good night all
[20:12] <paddatrapper> Seems I missed him. Oh well tomorrow it shall have to be
[20:30] <theblazehen> Oh, come on!
[20:30] <theblazehen> I'm such an idiot..
[20:30] <theblazehen> 3 hours + tracking down an off by one error
[20:39] <theblazehen> Oh. That wasn't it either
[21:00]  * superfly was busy in a meeting
[21:00] <theblazehen> Hey superfly
[21:00] <superfly> hi theblazehen
[21:01] <theblazehen> Do you by any chance have a good way of waking up at 1 AM where I won't just turn off the alarm and schedule a later one in my sleep?
[21:01] <theblazehen> PC speakers turn off after time
[21:01] <theblazehen> and I could always ^C a while:;do beep; done loop
[21:02] <superfly> theblazehen: nope, sorry. I struggle with the same thing.
[21:02] <theblazehen> superfly: Damn
[21:02] <theblazehen> Hmm
[21:03] <superfly> theblazehen: I've gotten up, gone to the toilet, gotten back into bed, and fallen asleep for another 30 minutes
[21:03] <theblazehen> I could ssh to my router, run a sleep; while:;do beep; done on there
[21:03] <theblazehen> then detach from screen
[21:03] <theblazehen> that way I'd need to ssh in, attach to screen and ^C it
[21:03] <theblazehen> wow
[21:03] <theblazehen> nice
[21:03] <theblazehen> Maybe some kind of dead mans switch
[21:03] <superfly> yeah, alarms don't work so well for me.
[21:04] <theblazehen> How do I do a dead mans switch I can't cancel?
[21:04] <theblazehen> I give up
[21:04] <theblazehen> Probably best to spend the next 3 hours sleeping, rather than thinking about the best way to wake up
[21:07] <theblazehen> Oh what the hell
[21:08] <theblazehen> The dev of the script said I should run in batches of 100 entries or so, but the script segfaults at points, so I need to clear out what gets missed. Faster to just for i in {0000..5540} do php script.php $i 1; done than it is to go in batches of 100
[21:09] <theblazehen> Batches of 100 = less than 100 because of failiure too


[06:25] <godbyk> Hey, IlyaHaykinson.  I created a pad for us to add notes on how to expand/improve the style guide: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-style-guide
[06:26] <godbyk> feel free to dump your thoughts there as you have time.
[06:28] <IlyaHaykinson> sweet, will do, thanks!
[06:32] <IlyaHaykinson> btw did you resolve thelucid-e2 branch situation?
[06:33] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I haven't yet. I was going to bring it up at the meeting, but we didn't get to it.
[06:33] <IlyaHaykinson> i see.
[06:34] <godbyk> I'm hoping to find someone that knows more than me about launchpad/bzr to help with it (so I don't blow something up)
[06:34] <IlyaHaykinson> i say go ahead and do it. otherwise we'll never get started on e2...
[06:34] <godbyk> you're probably right.
[06:34] <IlyaHaykinson> plus, with humphrey being out for a month, we'll have a gap in coordination
[06:34] <godbyk> do you know if/how I can kill the branch but leave in all the milestones (and readd the branch to that series)?
[06:35] <IlyaHaykinson> hm. not sure about that at all.
[06:35] <IlyaHaykinson> i don't know bazaar very well.
[06:35] <godbyk> me neither.
[06:35] <IlyaHaykinson> oh, but there's #bzr
[06:36] <godbyk> good idea.
[06:36] <godbyk> I'll ask there.
[06:36] <godbyk> (hopefully they don't flame me too badly.) :)
[06:39] <godbyk> I've posed the question in #bzr. We'll see what they say.
[06:39] <godbyk> They may redirect me to #launchpad, too.
[06:39] <IlyaHaykinson> nod. it looks like a slow channel though
[06:40] <godbyk> indeed.
[06:40] <godbyk> maybe I'm better off going to #launchpad anyway.
[06:40] <godbyk> they're usually pretty responsive there.
[06:46] <godbyk> Seems like a dead channel (#bzr).  I'll try #launchpad.
[06:54] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: im free to help you out now if you would like?
[06:55] <IlyaHaykinson> well, nothing much is happening yet. but let me forward to you some results of a question i asked on the technical writing mailing list.
[06:55] <IlyaHaykinson> one sec
[06:55] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: well, this sounds easier than I thought it'd be.
[06:55] <godbyk> wgrant from #launchpad walked me through it.
[06:56] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: ok, im grabbing some lunch now, ill be back in 10 minutes or so
[06:56] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: sweet.
[06:56] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: np
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, i added some comments about the style guide
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> though it really ought to be committed somewhere at some point :)
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> unless it already is.
[07:00] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: great
[07:01] <IlyaHaykinson> bbiab
[07:03] <godbyk> I've detached the existing branch.
[07:03] <godbyk> I'm creating a new branch on my hard drive right now.
[07:03] <godbyk> will push it when I'm done.
[07:18] <nisshh> back now
[07:21] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: are you able to give me a rundown on what your planning? what you want me to do?
[07:22] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: i'm honestly not sure yet. there's an etherpad with some thoughts, hang on, let me find it
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/xniGvB2Nlq
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson> these are my general thoughts
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson> but, generally, i think we need to carefully recruit a bunch of users that are our target audience
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> figure out what they need from a manual
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> figure out whether the manual we've written works for them
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> then do quantitative research (i.e. surveys etc) to confirm information gathered in these focus groups
[07:24] <nisshh> right
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> and then summarize it all into recommendations
[07:25] <nisshh> sounds like a good plan
[07:25] <nisshh> where do you plan on getting these recruits>
[07:25] <nisshh> ?
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> i'm hoping to get my friend -- who runs panels etc -- started on this soon.
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> recruits? craigslist, and the like
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> we'll need to create a good screener
[07:25] <nisshh> ah ok
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> where they don't know we're asking about the manual
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> or about ubuntu
[07:25] <nisshh> screener?
[07:26] <nisshh> oh ok
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson> questionnaire to screen people when recruiting them
[07:26] <nisshh> have to make sure each person is being honest
[07:27] <nisshh> unfortunantly there is no one i know of in my area that even uses linux
[07:28] <nisshh> and the closest LUG is 2 hours away
[07:29] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: so i suppose the first thing to do would be to create this questionnaire?
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson> well, we don't _want_ people who use linux, right?
[07:29] <godbyk> nisshh: I think the manual is intended for people who don't/haven't used linux/ubuntu yet.
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson> we're targeting new users
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: i don't know, actually, what the steps should be. probably we should settle on what users we want to reach, and then figure out where we're going to recruit them.
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson> then, yes, come up with the questionnaire
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson> i really did want my friend Hilary to drive a bunch of this, since she's got the experience. if i can't get her to start contributing by wed-thurs of next week, we'll proceed on our own
[07:31] <godbyk> Okay, I've copied the .tex files (and related tex stuff), the Makefile, the README file, the po4a.conf file, and the screenshots file over to the new branch I'm creating.
[07:31] <godbyk> What have I forgotten?
[07:31] <nisshh> godbyk: yea, i didnt really use the right words there, i meant: no one in my area is even remotely computer literate
[07:32] <nisshh> godbyk: i dont know, but someone always forgets something
[07:32] <godbyk> I know. :)
[07:32] <godbyk> I can add it later, it's not a huge deal, I guess.
[07:32] <godbyk> I'd rather start the branch with too few files than too many.
[07:32] <godbyk> the whole ideas is to reduce the branch size, after all.
[07:32] <nisshh> godbyk: maybe to a test compile?
[07:33] <nisshh> if it compiles then all required stuff should be there
[07:33] <godbyk> nisshh: yeah, I'm definitely doing that. :)
[07:33] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: which users do we want to reach? windows converts? novice linux users?
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: new computer users; people with windows or mac skills; those who would be likely to try out ubuntu.
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson> or ones who've tried and didn't end up using it.
[07:34] <nisshh> ok, where could we find people like that?
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson> universities; online; coffee shops....
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson> as long as the screener is decently written and doesn't pre-select people too much, we should end up with a reasonable group of people.
[07:37] <nisshh> oh hang on, so you want to create something like a handout screener of questions or something?
[07:38] <godbyk> brb
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> well, more like a "do you want to do this study? no reward, but you'll be helping people" type of a thing. and a URL to go answer a ton of questions.
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> that invitation to the URL could really be posted anywhere.
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> we'll just need to screen the people who fill out the URL to have a good mix of the people we want selected
[07:40] <IlyaHaykinson> which means we need hundreds of people to fill out the screener, so that we end up with 10-15 whom we actually interview or study
[07:41] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: ok, so something on our website?
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> right.
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> or, well, something not connected directly with our website
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> so that they can't realize it's for ubuntu before they fill out the survey
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> cause otherwise that'd influence them ahead of time
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> and we wouldn't have a fair mix of people
[07:43] <nisshh> right, so a generic survey website?
[07:44] <nisshh> jaminday: hey, havent seen you on here in a while!
[07:44] <jaminday> nisshh: hey! yeah been real busy last month or so
[07:44] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: yeah, i think that would be a good idea
[07:44] <jaminday> I'll be trying to get back in here more often though!
[07:45] <nisshh> ok, do you have a good one in mind or do you need to do some research?
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson> we could use what i used last time
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson> questionpro
[07:45] <nisshh> jaminday: good! we need more people all the time
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson> limited to 10 questions for free
[07:45] <nisshh> is 10 enough?
[07:46] <IlyaHaykinson> or, we can set up limesurvey (we already have it on ubuntu-manual.org, but probably could host it on another domain too)
[07:47] <nisshh> questionpro would be fine if we only had 10 or less questions to ask a think
[07:47] <nisshh> i think
[07:47] <IlyaHaykinson> nod.
[07:47] <nisshh> hmmm, so whats next>
[07:53] <godbyk> back now
[07:53] <godbyk> Hey, jaminday!
[07:54] <IlyaHaykinson> let's wait for my friend Hilary... for a few days. then move forward with the next steps.
[07:54] <godbyk> jaminday: If you have any thoughts on improving/expanding the style guide, you can add them to this pad I've created: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-style-guide
[07:55] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: surveymonkey is one that gets used a lot at my university. not sure what it costs or what features/restrictions it has.
[07:55] <godbyk> (it's not particularly pretty.)
[07:56] <nisshh> http://www.surveymonkey.com/Home_PricingDetail.aspx
[07:57] <nisshh> same 10 question limit
[07:57] <godbyk> looks like it.
[07:57] <godbyk> we have our own survey software at http://survey.ubuntu-manual.org, too..
[07:57] <godbyk> though if you want to hide the 'ubuntu-manual.org' part, we'd need to set up a CNAME DNS alias
[07:58] <nisshh> yea we do
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: yeah, we may just end up doing the CNAME
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> would be easier
[07:58] <godbyk> yeah.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> than using questionpro / surveymonkey
[07:58] <nisshh> yes, and we get more control over the survey too
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> well, not easier -- but we'd have more control
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> heh. right.
[07:58] <nisshh> hehe
[07:58] <godbyk> I've got a hairetes.org domain that I'm planning to use for my dissertaion.
[07:58] <godbyk> dissertation, rather.
[07:58] <godbyk> it has no other associations at the moment.
[07:59] <godbyk> I could CNAME survey.hairetes.org over and we could use that as a cloak.
[07:59] <godbyk> or if someone else has a better domain, that's fine, too.
[07:59] <nisshh> nope
[07:59] <nisshh> i think thats fine
[08:01] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: what do you think? use the CNAME godbyk suggested?
[08:03] <IlyaHaykinson> sure; that works
[08:04] <nisshh> godbyk: lets do it then!
[08:04] <godbyk> Done. http://survey.hairetes.org/  May take a bit for the DNS changes to propagate.
[08:05] <nisshh> ooh that was quick
[08:06] <nisshh> yea its not functional just yet
[08:06] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: You'll just have to make sure 'ubuntu manual' isn't mentioned in the survey software someplace then.
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson> ok
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson> thx
[08:09] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: questions?
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson> for the screener? i have no idea.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> i need to think about them.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> we have time; again, i'd like to figure out what we want before we move forward with the questionnaire beyond this.
[08:10] <nisshh> yep
[08:11] <nisshh> im young, im impatient, dont take any notice.
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson> ;)
[08:16] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: just ping me if you there is anything i can help you with, hows that sound?
[08:16] <IlyaHaykinson> nod, perfect
[08:21] <jaminday> hey godbyk, sorry was outside for a bit.
[08:21] <godbyk> no problem
[08:22] <jaminday> Yep sounds good i'll take a look at the pad
[08:30] <c7p> godbyk how did go yesterday?
[08:35] <godbyk> c7p: I don't think I got much farther with it.  Give me a few minutes.. I'm updating all the ubuntu-manual branches (and trying not to screw it up too badly in the process)
[08:38] <c7p> godbyk take your time, i can understand that you are under pressure. I just want to know the progress of the work cause there are some people on the greek forums that want that translated manual and i have to inform them.
[08:44] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I've removed the original branch and replaced it with a fresh branch.
[08:44] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Can you please copy over your recent edits into the new branch?
[08:45] <godbyk> Pulling lp:ubuntu-manual will get you the new (clean) branch.
[08:48] <nisshh> yay!
[08:48] <nisshh> ill fix my local copy up now then
[08:50] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ok, will do in a bit
[08:53] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: thanks.
[08:53] <godbyk> I've just sent an email to the list to explain that various branches and which one we should be doing work in.
[08:54] <godbyk> hopefully we'll be more careful and discriminating in adding files to this branch so it doesn't get huge.
[08:55] <godbyk> (I did leave the English screenshots in there. Not sure if I should've or not.)
[08:55] <nisshh> godbyk: leave them in there because then we can make sure that the manual still compiles with them, incase of any screenshot issues
[08:56] <c7p> godbyk: interesting info, so for the lucid-e1 branch what command do we type ? bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual ?
[08:57] <godbyk> c7p: yep, that command will get you the proper branch.
[08:57] <godbyk> if you already have an ubuntu-manual dir, you'll want to rename it, probably.
[08:57] <godbyk> Now I'm going to write an email explaining the plan for releasing the translated versions of the manual.
[08:57] <c7p> godbyk: so i should update the branch on my PC, right
[08:58] <godbyk> Any suggestions for how to go about selecting an editor for each translation?
[08:58] <c7p> godbyk: very good
[08:58] <godbyk> c7p: Yeah, if you previously had the second edition branch, you'll want to delete that and use the new one.
[09:01] <godbyk> dutchie: you around?
[09:12] <ubuntujenkins> morning all
[09:13] <nisshh> ubuntujenkins: hey
[09:13] <ubuntujenkins> hey nisshh
[09:13] <nisshh> more like evening for me though :)
[09:13] <nisshh> or late afternoon
[09:14] <nisshh> maveric just opened for dev!
[09:15] <ubuntujenkins> afternoon nisshh
[09:18] <godbyk> okay, translation message sent.
[09:21] <c7p> nice this message is a must for the project's progress
[09:21] <c7p> a question
[09:21] <c7p> The editors should be fluent in the language,
[09:21] <c7p> willing to help edit .tex files directly
[09:22] <c7p> does this mean that the editor have to know Latex ?
[09:22] <godbyk> c7p: they won't have to know too much latex, really.
[09:22] <godbyk> c7p: most of the editing I had to do with the english version was to move the \margonnote lines around so that they were in the right place.
[09:23] <godbyk> most of the \marginnote lines are currently sitting as their own paragraph.  this is wrong.  (I should've pointed this out much earlier on, but hadn't really noticed it at the time.)
[09:23] <godbyk> the \marginnote lines should be included in/with a normal paragraph.
[09:24] <godbyk> so it's primarily a matter of either deleting the blank line after a \marginnote so that the margin note starts at the top of the following paragraph, or moving the \marginnote{...} stuff *inside* a paragraph so that it aligns with the content that it's in reference to.
[09:25] <c7p> godbyk, so the "\marginnote" should be on the same string of the relevant paragraph ?
[09:26] <godbyk> It'd be nice if the editor weren't also the primary translator of the text (as it's often hard to see mistakes in your own writing), but hopefully the editors will work with the translators to find all the bugs they can.
[09:26] <godbyk> c7p: precisely.
[09:27] <godbyk> c7p: If I moved them to their appropriate spots in the English text right now, though, it'd cause the translators a lot of grief (given that launchpad would discard the two translations and force you to retranslate the entire paragraph+\marginnote again).
[09:30] <c7p> godbyk: don't worry, if you have a back up of the pot file then the only thing you have to do is to copy n paste the needed text, i can do that job for my language. No retranslation no grief :) as long as there is a back up of the pot file of the language ;)
[09:30] <godbyk> right.
[09:30] <godbyk> for this first edition, I think we'll just move the margin notes around manually.
[09:30] <c7p> ok
[09:31] <godbyk> for the second edition, I've already made the margin note corrections in the english version. so the translated versions will see them when we get to that point.
[09:31] <c7p> good plan
[09:32] <c7p> what do i have to do to move manually the margin notes ?
[09:33] <godbyk> c7p: moving the margin notes is one of the very last things that will be done.  after all the translated text has been proofread.
[09:33] <IlyaHaykinson> omg. i just spent 2 hrs trying to book a freaking plane ticket.
[09:33] <godbyk> c7p: we generate the translated .tex file and then edit that file to move the margin notes around.
[09:33] <IlyaHaykinson> i think i'm scarred.
[09:33] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: holy cow! why'd it take so long?
[09:33] <IlyaHaykinson> card getting declined
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> first a travelocity, then again there twice. then at expedia.
[09:34] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: naw, you'll be scarred after the TSA cavity search, though.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> then i call, unblock it. still declined. try the airline directly.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> decline.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> decline. decline. call the card company again. fix things. try again.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> FINALLY it works.
[09:34] <godbyk> maybe you should pay your cc bill first. ;-)
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> nah. it was a fraud block.
[09:34] <godbyk> yeah, I've had those, too.
[09:34] <godbyk> they're a pain.
[09:35] <godbyk> 'yes, I know I never spend money, but y'know what, sometimes I need a new computer. so let me use this stupid card for once!'
[09:35] <godbyk> usually it happens when I need something to ship in a hurry, too.
[09:35] <godbyk> just one more stumbling block.
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah. plus the airline made my type in the passport info
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> for me, my wife, and my kid.
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> every time.
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> argh!
[09:36]  * IlyaHaykinson fumes.
[09:40] <godbyk> lovely
[09:40] <godbyk> where ya headed?
[09:40]  * godbyk is writing all sorts of emails this evening.
[09:40] <IlyaHaykinson> LA -> NYC -> Moscow -> NYC -> LA
[09:40] <IlyaHaykinson> later this summer
[09:41] <godbyk> cool
[09:43] <IlyaHaykinson> oh, man, i hope so. 10 hour flight with an 19 month old toddler will be quite something.
[09:45] <godbyk> ooh, yeah. that will be interesting.
[09:54] <IlyaHaykinson> where should we put things like the manual tools?
[09:54] <IlyaHaykinson> perhaps some other shared branch, that stays constant between releases?
[09:54] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: what kind of tools?
[09:54] <IlyaHaykinson> er, (proofread|spellcheck).py
[09:54] <godbyk> Yeah, we should probably set up another branch for those sorts of things.  Style guide included.
[09:55] <IlyaHaykinson> also, lucid-e2 won't build for me.
[09:55] <c7p> godbyk from what i see editors of the translated version, have to type to type "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1" instead of "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual" , that is described on the site
[09:55] <IlyaHaykinson> "unable to load picture or PDF file 'graphics/advanced.pdf'"
[09:55] <godbyk> c7p: The lucid-e1 branch is what the translators are working against right now.  the lp:ubuntu-manual branch is for the second edition work.
[09:56] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: let me add those pdfs for ya.
[09:56] <godbyk> (they were listed in the .bzrignore file, I think)
[09:56] <godbyk> do you have stuff to commit/push first?
[09:58] <IlyaHaykinson> nope
[09:58] <godbyk> 'kay.
[09:58] <IlyaHaykinson> was doing a build test first
[09:58] <c7p> yeah that's what I said "translated version", all the editors working on the manual are working on the lucid-e1 so the site should be updated so as not to mislead editors of the translated pdfs
[09:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: okay, icons pushed.
[09:59] <IlyaHaykinson> titlepage/*.pdf issues now
[09:59] <godbyk> c7p: which site needs to be updated?
[09:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: figures. which of those are you missing?
[09:59] <c7p> http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
[09:59] <IlyaHaykinson> title_page_letter_en
[10:00] <godbyk> c7p: ah, gotcha. well, the site's accurate for authors and non-translator editors. I'll see what we can do for the translator editors.
[10:01] <c7p> godbyk: ahh i din't knew that it was only for the English editors
[10:01] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: okay, pushed those.
[10:01] <godbyk> c7p: Well before 30 minutes ago, the notion of translator-editors didn't really exist. :)
[10:02] <c7p> c7p: :) yeah
[10:03] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: very nice; builds very happily now. thank you.
[10:04] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: great!
[10:11] <thorwil> godbyk: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/ translates to lucid-e1?
[10:13] <godbyk> thorwil: that sounds like it could be right.  but lp:ubuntu-manual should point to lucid-e2.
[10:13] <godbyk> (you have to do a fresh 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual' though.)
[10:14] <jcisio> hello
[10:14] <jcisio> anyone is aware of what happened with vi translation?
[10:14] <thorwil> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual makes it look like that would lucid-e2
[10:14] <jcisio> it had less than 1200 untranslated yesterday, but now 1463 untranslated, 309 need reviews
[10:15] <godbyk> jcisio: nice!
[10:15] <thorwil> well, i will just do a fresh checkout to be sure what i'm pulling and pushing
[10:15] <jcisio> I don't know what happened, 300 reviewed string become unreviewed
[10:15] <godbyk> thorwil: yeah, because bzr store the 'real', expanded url in the local directory. so it may be using the original main/lucid-e1 branch.
[10:16] <godbyk> jcisio: I'm not sure. We haven't updated the translation template file at all.
[10:18] <jcisio> 2h ago it was ok, but not now
[10:18] <jcisio> godbyk: I will wait a moment to see if it is a LP problem
[10:18] <godbyk> jcisio: okay. let me know if you figure out what causes that. others have asked about it in the past, too, but I don't have any answers.
[10:19] <godbyk> jcisio: if it doesn't correct itself, you might ask in #launchpad. they're typically quite helpful (and respond pretty quickly).
[10:21] <c7p> goodbye
[10:22] <godbyk> Goodbye, c7p
[10:22] <jcisio> thanks for advice, godbyk
[10:50] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, gnite
[10:51] <nisshh> night
[12:16] <dutchie> godbyk-android: i am now
[12:16] <dutchie> but your proper self appears to have split :(
[12:21] <dutchie> godbyk: back now
[12:22] <godbyk> hey, dutchie.
[12:22] <godbyk> what was I talking about when I pinged you? :)
[12:25] <dutchie> translations?
[12:25] <dutchie> branches
[12:25] <dutchie> 08:58:27 < godbyk> c7p: Yeah, if you previously had the second edition branch, you'll want to delete that and use the new one.
[12:25] <dutchie> 09:01:03 < godbyk> dutchie: you around?
[12:27] <dutchie> you can try to remember while i have a shower
[12:28] <godbyk> ah, I think I was going to ask you about how we should handle selecting translation editors.
[12:28] <godbyk> not urgent. go shower. :)
[13:12] <topo> hello
[13:12] <ubuntujenkins> hello topo
[13:13] <topo> trying to build the greek translation everything worked besides the indexing
[13:13] <ubuntujenkins> topo: I think godbyk is having fun trying to sort out translated indexes
[13:13] <topo> seems like that changing in the makefile the line texindy -L ....
[13:14] <topo> to: XINDY -c UTF8 -m TEXINDY -l ....
[13:14] <topo> does the job
[13:14] <topo> (oops, i pressed the caps lock)
[13:15] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ^
[13:15] <ubuntujenkins> I have no advnaced latex knowledge I am afraid
[13:16] <godbyk> topo: Yeah, that's what I was trying to do here.
[13:16] <godbyk> And then it yelled at my about not having the utf-8 encoding files or something odd
[13:20] <topo> actually the only warnings where about marginpars and overfull boxes
[13:56] <Surst> Hello :)
[13:56] <Surst> I've got a question, concerning the builds:
[13:56] <Surst> how often are they updated? daily?
[14:00] <dutchie> when godbyk gets round to doing it, iirc
[14:02] <Surst> ok, thank you :)
[16:53] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
[20:23]  * ubuntujenkins has joined all the uds channels there is so many
[21:26] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: pong
[21:28] <ubuntujenkins> hello godbyk can you look at man dh_installtex please . I am trying to work out what line i should add to the ccicons package so that it updates the ccicons font it latex. I am told this is the way to do it. I thought you may be able to shine some light on it or have a good idea
[21:29] <godbyk> sure, lemme look
[21:31] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it looks like you want something like "dh_installtex map=Map,foo.map"
[21:32] <godbyk> for ccicons, it'd be dh_installtex map=Map,ccicons.map
[21:32] <godbyk> (assuming I've understood the examples correctly.
[21:32] <ubuntujenkins> I will have a go, I think all this managment is frying my brain
[21:33] <godbyk> I don't blame you.  It's really messy.
[21:34] <godbyk> Adding the debian layer in there just complicates things further
[21:39] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: nice ! this appears to work
[21:39] <ubuntujenkins> thanks
[21:44] <ubuntujenkins> right now to get the licence file correct
[21:45] <godbyk> Hey, dutchie, any idea why so many translated strings are being marked as 'suggested'?  I've had a few reports of this.
[21:45] <ubuntujenkins> there was an e-mail on the list about it again
[21:46] <dutchie> godbyk: no idea
[21:46] <dutchie> something to do with permissions, i think
[21:46] <godbyk> permissions of what?
[21:47] <dutchie> the translations
[21:48] <godbyk> in launchpad?
[21:48] <dutchie> yes
[21:48] <godbyk> what would've changed?
[21:48] <dutchie> could easily have been there all along
[21:48] <godbyk> the reports I've seen are that a whole heap of previously translated and accepted strings are now flagged as suggestions instead.
[21:48] <dutchie> oh
[21:49] <godbyk> A Vietnamese translator popped in here earlier today/yesterday complaining about it. And now an Asturian translator has posted a similar story to the mailing list.
[21:50] <dutchie> hmm
[21:51] <dutchie> i'm currently doing about 15 things at once (for a change), mind asking in #launchpad?
[21:51] <godbyk> I'd like to figure out what the story is so we've at least got something to tell the translators other than, 'I dunno.' :)
[21:51] <godbyk> Sure, I'll give it a shot.
[21:51] <godbyk> Thanks, dutchie.
[21:52] <ubuntujenkins> ok just to be 100% sure line 109 of http://paste.ubuntu.com/430211/ does mean that i cna make a package of it and distribute it?
[21:53] <ubuntujenkins> also is this the same licence "Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported license" that we are using?
[21:56] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: It's the LPPL, not the CC license we're using.
[21:56] <godbyk> You can redistribute the ccicons package freely, yes.
[21:57] <godbyk> The only stipulation with the LPPL, really, is that if you modify what the ccicons package does, you must rename it to avoid confusion.
[21:57] <ubuntujenkins> ccicons is under tow licences, I was pretty sure i could distrbute it always like to check
[21:57] <godbyk> in our case, we're distributing the ccicons package unmodified.
[21:58] <godbyk> ah, gotcha.
[22:31]  * ubuntujenkins man ccicons failed building in launchpad http://launchpadlibrarian.net/48086211/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-i386.ccicons_0.0.0~20100507ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[22:31] <ubuntujenkins> I put the line in the wrong place
[22:33] <ubuntujenkins> why do we need inkscape to compile the manual?
[22:33] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it's not specifically to compile the manual, but to do on-the-fly conversions from svg to pdf for the title page.
[22:34] <ubuntujenkins> Thats what i thought, thanks
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> dutchie: how much do you know about debian rules files?
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> or anyone here ^
[22:40] <dutchie> they're just Makefiles :)
[22:41] <ubuntujenkins> *make files
[22:41] <ubuntujenkins> :P
[22:41] <ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Heeeeelllllllllppppppppp......!!!!!!!!!!
[22:41] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: what's up?
[22:41] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#s-debianrules
[22:42] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: learn how to write Makefiles, skill for life :)
[22:42] <ChrisWoollard> I was looking at the build log for en_gb
[22:42] <ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie, another thing to learn then :)
[22:42] <ChrisWoollard> apparently there is an error where terminal is not defined in the glossary.
[22:43] <ChrisWoollard> I went into translations and searched for terminal.  https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/en_GB/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=terminal
[22:44] <ChrisWoollard> In the search it shows that line / paragraph 18 has not been translated. however none of the other screens indicate that there are any outstanding translations.
[22:44] <ChrisWoollard> ANy ideas?
[22:44] <ChrisWoollard> See. I didn't break anything
[22:44] <godbyk> let me build it here real quick and see what the errors are.
[22:45] <ChrisWoollard> I wonder why it is telling me that some stuff hasn't been translated in one place but not another.
[22:46] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: It looks like the newer translation I have downloaded is compiling fine.
[22:46] <godbyk> I'll update the builds page soon.
[22:47] <ChrisWoollard> So what you are saying is that the builds page is out of date?
[22:48] <godbyk> Well, the builds page was updated using revision 832.  I've since downloaded newer translations to my computer (which will be 833 once I've committed them).
[22:48] <godbyk> The builds page only gets updated when I manually run a script.
[22:49] <godbyk> So there's a lag between the translations as they are in Launchpad and the PDFs/logs are they are on the builds page.
[22:51] <ChrisWoollard> So do you also have any idea why on the above launchpad link that line 18 is listed as not translated but on https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual there are no outstanding translations?
[22:52] <godbyk> I have don't know about that, sorry.
[22:52] <godbyk> I've posed the following on #launchpad a bit earlier, though and haven't received a response yet:
 I've had some reports recently from our translators that a number of strings have been flagged as 'needs review'.  It seems this change happened overnight.  Do you know what's happened?
 http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/08/%23ubuntu-manual.html#t10:14
 https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01692.html
[22:55] <ChrisWoollard> hmmm. So what  you are saying that there is some unexplained weirdness occuring.
[22:55] <godbyk> Apparently.
[22:56] <godbyk> Unfortunately, it seems that with translations, there is often unexplained weirdness happening.  (Or, at least, *I* can't explain it.)
[22:56] <ChrisWoollard> Call Mulder and Scully
[22:57] <godbyk> The only change I've made recently was to remove the existing lucid-e2 branch and replace it with a fresh copy.  But I don't know why/how that would affect the lucid-e1 translations that everyone is working on.
[22:57] <godbyk> No doubt.
[22:57] <Daker> hello everbody
[22:57] <Daker> every*
[22:57] <godbyk> I chalk most of it up to my ignorance of the whole translation process (both inside and outside Launchpad).
[22:57] <godbyk> hey, Daker
[22:58]  * ubuntujenkins arrggh the packages got rejected
[22:59] <ChrisWoollard> Never mind then. Thanks for your help.
[22:59] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Or lack thereof. ;-)
[22:59] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: If I hear anything from the launchpad folks, I'll post it to the mailing list.
[22:59] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: why'd they get rejected now?
[23:02] <ubuntujenkins> mostly my fault forgot to add my e-mail address and forgot to bump the version number up all my fault
[23:02] <ubuntujenkins> I should know about those by now
[23:03] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: try doing dch -i
[23:04] <ubuntujenkins> dutchie: I know :) what I ment was that i should know that i should have to do that :P
[23:04] <ubuntujenkins> thanks anyway
[23:06] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I've pulled the latest translations from launchpad and am rebuilding all the PDFs now.
[23:06] <godbyk> It will take about 30 minutes for them to finish building and upload, I think.
[23:07] <ChrisWoollard> Ok
[23:08] <ChrisWoollard> I have just noticed that https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+translations now says that there are now 947 outstanding translations
[23:10]  * ubuntujenkins arrgh debian rules file again
[23:10] <ChrisWoollard> Where have they all gone?
[23:11] <ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: WHAT! they were there this morning
[23:12] <ubuntujenkins> seriously what has happend this is crazy
[23:12] <ChrisWoollard> I know.
[23:13] <godbyk> I don't know.
[23:13] <godbyk> I haven't yet received a respond in #launchpad.
[23:13] <ubuntujenkins> its the same as the others they have become suggestions by them selves
[23:14] <ChrisWoollard> That is weird
[23:14] <Daker> crasy o.O
[23:15] <ChrisWoollard> Please fix it.  The latest build has now gone from 100% complete to 47% complete.
[23:41]  * ubuntujenkins theres a build que :(
[23:42] <ubuntujenkins> *queue