[01:19] <BonBonTheJon> stelis: how can the web proxy optimise network usage
[01:20] <stelis> If you have multiple clients accessing the same page then the Web cache downloads the content once
[01:20] <stelis> Which is a big deal if you have a classroom and a small Internet connection
[01:20] <BonBonTheJon> stelis: ok, so it can cache, alright
[01:21] <BonBonTheJon> stelis: i didnt know if edubuntu did cache
[01:21] <stelis> It doesn't unless you install a cache package
[01:21] <stelis> But many .edu networks have a prxoy already
[01:22] <stelis> And Edubuntu will use it
[01:22] <stelis> If you configure the applications
[01:23] <BonBonTheJon> stelis: does edubuntu already do filtering
[01:24] <stelis> That list was really of network services that users need to be aware of when they install Edubuntu
[01:24] <BonBonTheJon> ok
[01:25] <stelis> Many .edu networks *require* access via an existing proxy...so Edubuntu won't have Internet access unless they  configure proxy support
[01:26] <stelis> Which is why I figured it was important
[01:27] <stelis> BonBonTheJon: FWIW, I actually use VMware for testing Edubuntu
[01:27] <stelis> You can simulate a thin client network with Workstation
[01:28] <BonBonTheJon> oh, maybe i should try out edubuntu, lol
[01:28] <stelis> It helps a lot :)
[01:29] <stelis> Ubuntu ships QEMU
[01:29] <stelis> Which a like Vmware but free and more fiddly
[01:29] <BonBonTheJon> cant i just download vmware and an edubuntu virtual machine
[01:31] <BonBonTheJon> stelis: see if it sounds ok so far http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27392/
[01:35] <stelis> Edubuntu has two modes: the default and "stand-alone". The default mode enables the system as an LTSP thin client server.
[01:35] <stelis> So you need one VM to run Edubuntu and a second to be the thin client...
[01:36] <stelis> OK.
[01:37] <stelis> Reviewing is mostly ignoring the good stuff and picking up trivial errors...
[01:37] <stelis> Two things, really:
[01:38] <stelis> You've said "page", but this document may be either on-line or printed, so you probably need to say "section" or "document"
[01:39] <BonBonTheJon> ok changed to section
[01:39] <stelis> I did say trivial :)
[01:39] <BonBonTheJon> i'm trying to leave the section more general network ideas, rather than specific to edubuntu
[01:40] <stelis> That's probably what's wanted
[01:40] <BonBonTheJon> i figured
[01:40] <BonBonTheJon> what was the second thing
[01:41] <stelis> The other is that you need to explain a new term when you introduce it, even though it may seem totally obvious
[01:41] <stelis> e.g. wired and wireless
[01:41] <BonBonTheJon> like...
[01:41] <BonBonTheJon> yeah, i haven't done those yet
[01:41] <stelis> OK, I'll shut then
[01:41] <BonBonTheJon> thanks
[01:41] <stelis> :)
[02:25] <lguerra> RichEd: Ping
[04:34] <sbalneav> Evening all
[04:35] <ajmitch> hi sbalneav
[04:35] <sbalneav> Hello
[04:36] <BonBonTheJon> hi
[05:18] <nixternal> hi, i am new to linix, and me want to hack govornament campooters
[05:18] <BonBonTheJon> ??
[05:18] <nixternal> i have no clue
[05:19] <nixternal> i just got done doing my marketing homework, so my brain is shot
[05:19] <BonBonTheJon> lol, i'm trying to study for a c programming test
[05:20] <nixternal> man..i can't wait to get to C programming...im doing all my pre-req courses now...looks like i will take my first in next summer
[05:20] <nixternal> see...my bachelors in computer science, i emphasized on IS and Intranetworking instead of coding
[05:20] <BonBonTheJon> nixternal: i do my homework in gcc and it confuses my classmates
[05:21] <sbalneav> I've been programming in C for 20+ years.
[05:21] <nixternal> but i had taken assembly, c, vb, and ladder logic years ago
[05:21] <nixternal> jeesh sbalneav
[05:21] <sbalneav> It, uhh, isn't quite so exciting after that long :)
[05:21] <BonBonTheJon> nixternal: yeah, our program is mainly focused on database
[05:21] <nixternal> i coded in C in the 90's
[05:21] <nixternal> now im going back to get some more coding skills
[05:22] <nixternal> there are 3 steps in this program im doing...there is C++, VB blah, and I cannot remember the 3rd, it might have been database stuff
[05:22] <sbalneav> heh, my first C program was a terminal program I wrote for my 300 baud modem back in 1985. Wrote it in turbo C when I was 17. :)
[05:22] <nixternal> so in this program, i will cover windows c, unix c, gui, c#, and some perl
[05:23] <nixternal> i know the c isn't different, but there are a couple of seperate courses
[05:23] <BonBonTheJon> nixternal: i do my programming in nano and compile with gcc, it confuses the windows kids
[05:24] <nixternal> my problem is i can read the code just fine, but i couldn't create a program on my own anymore...i want to get back to coding on my own and creating my own stuff
[05:24] <nixternal> gcc -ofun
[05:24] <nixternal> BonBonTheJon: it is nice to know im not the only nano freak
[05:25] <nixternal> although, for my text editing stuff, for instance docbook and what not, nothing beats kate for me
[05:25] <BonBonTheJon> nixternal: nano if I'm in console, kate if i have my gui
[05:25] <nixternal> gedit is nice though, but kate validates docbook and xml
[05:25] <nixternal> ya BonBonTheJon, same here
[05:25] <BonBonTheJon> nixternal: great minds think alike
[05:25] <nixternal> indeed they do
[05:25] <nixternal> ;)
[05:25] <sbalneav> If you're a nano freak, that means you're 99.999999999% normal.
[05:25] <nixternal> heh
[05:26] <sbalneav> That's a, I say, that's a JOKE son.
[05:26] <nixternal> people still ooh and ahh over vi, well vim
[05:26] <nixternal> but vim is to much work
[05:27] <sbalneav> So tell me, if you move a piece of code around, and need to move it back 2 indent levels, how does that work in nano?
[05:27] <nixternal> thats where i use kate
[05:27] <nixternal> nano is for my quick cli edit
[05:27] <nixternal> s
[05:30] <LaserJock> I still haven't been able to get into kate or gedit
[05:32] <nixternal> then what are you using?
[05:32] <nixternal> what are you into?
[05:33] <LaserJock> vim usually
[05:33] <LaserJock> emacs sometimes
[05:33] <nixternal> cuz you are so elite
[05:34] <LaserJock> not really
[05:35] <LaserJock> I just can't figure out how to use the GUI editors very well
[05:37] <nixternal> you can't figure out how to use the gui editors, but you have figured out emacs
[05:37] <nixternal> hehe
[05:37] <LaserJock> yep
[05:37] <nixternal> you are backwards
[05:38] <LaserJock> the GUI editors always mess me up
[05:38] <LaserJock> the line wrapping
[05:38] <LaserJock> I can't do things like move columns
[05:38] <nixternal> ya
[05:38] <nixternal> kate the line wrapping is smooth
[05:39] <nixternal> gedit it is rather crude
[05:39] <BonBonTheJon> in kate, I dont like the hashing it does for line wrapping
[05:40] <nixternal> see, i kind of do like that...it lets you know it is line wrapped
[05:44] <sbalneav> LaserJock: You're kinda a doco/yelp/xml sort of person, right?
[05:44] <sbalneav> When you're not shooting lasers at things.
[05:44] <LaserJock> well, I'm on the doc team
[05:44] <sbalneav> Cool.
[05:44] <LaserJock> so I suppose
[05:44] <sbalneav> What's the best way to handle menu selections.  I'm working on the handbook...
[05:45] <sbalneav> And I want to say something like...
[05:45] <sbalneav> Open the System menu, and go to System -> Users and Groups
[05:45] <sbalneav> Is there a tag for that?
[05:45] <LaserJock> the doc team has a system for that
[05:45] <sbalneav> Lay it on me bro!
Users and Groups</menuitem>
[05:46] <sbalneav> Ooooh
[05:46] <LaserJock> sbalneav: do you have the doc team repo by chance?
[05:46] <sbalneav> sexxxy
[05:46] <LaserJock> we set up files
[05:46] <sbalneav> Um, no.  I'm working on the edubuntu handbook, and that's currently off in it's own little world.
[05:47] <LaserJock> so you can do like &gedit; and it would insert the above for gedit
[05:47] <nixternal> ooh, i seen my makefile booboos for the kubuntu pdf's yesterday...i refixed them, and still had booboos i overlooked..yesterday was not a good doc day for me
[05:47] <nixternal> LaserJock: i think what i will do is when i have a lot of content, im going to go through and create a handbook.ent and move a lot of stuff over to it
[05:47] <nixternal> like LTSP for one
[05:48] <nixternal> otherwise people will be trying to translate it, and making it hard on users
[05:48] <sbalneav> So, if it was a multilevel pick, you'd do <guimenu>Applications</guimenu><guimenu>Internet</guimenu><menuitem>Naughty Pictures Of Bugs</menuitem> ?
[05:50] <LaserJock> so right now we have a gnome-menus.ent that has a line like <!ENTITY rhythmbox SYSTEM '../menus/C/rhythmbox.xml'>
[05:50] <nixternal> hrmm...
[05:50] <BonBonTheJon> can you guys look over my introduction to networks for the handbook, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27430/
[05:51] <BonBonTheJon> its not done yet
 is the top item
[05:51] <nixternal> then there is

[05:51] <nixternal> man..im having a hell of time thinking about this one for some reason

[05:52] <nixternal> so it goes, if im correct

[05:53] <nixternal> ya, that looks correct
[05:53] <sbalneav> ah, submenu
[05:54] <nixternal> BonBonTheJon: you rock!
[05:54] <BonBonTheJon> nixternal: since you focused on networks I thought you could look over it
[05:54] <nixternal> very nice clean code
[05:55] <BonBonTheJon> kate is good!
[05:55] <nixternal> that it is
 tag, dont' think i have used that one much
[05:56] <BonBonTheJon> nixternal: someone else sent me the little part they did as a start, and it was in there
[05:56] <nixternal> ahh
[05:56] <nixternal> good validation it seems as well
[05:57] <LaserJock> !pastebin
[05:57] <nixternal> pastebin.ubuntu-nl.com
[05:57] <nixternal> i think
[05:57] <nixternal> .org
[05:57] <nixternal> http://pastebin.ubuntu-nl.org
[05:57] <nixternal> there you go lazy
[05:58] <BonBonTheJon> look up, i just posted one
[05:59] <LaserJock> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27432/
[06:01] <nixternal> oh ya, i forgot about menuchoice
[06:02] <nixternal> woudn't this be correct though ->  http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27434/
[06:04] <sbalneav> So, I'm thinking of moving from Firefox to Epiphany.  Can anyone give me a cogent reason not to?
[06:04] <nixternal> nope
[06:04] <nixternal> hehe
[06:05] <crimsun> memory requirement would be the only thing I could think of.
[06:05] <^Ghost2U> anyone install opera on dapper?
[06:11] <Burgundavia> ^Ghost2U: my brother has
[06:11] <LaserJock> I installed it
[06:11] <Burgundavia> sbalneav: do you use many ff extensions?
[06:11] <sbalneav> Nope.
[06:11] <Burgundavia> crimsun: memory usage is less with ephy
[06:11] <Burgundavia> currently one of the main nice things about ephy is broken, due to mozilla's crap code
[06:12] <Burgundavia> normally you can search for the main bar, but right now it is busted
[06:12] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I don't like how it epi handles URL editing
[06:12] <LaserJock> but other then that it seems cool
[06:12] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: url editing?
[06:12] <^Ghost2U> I'm trying to but it's saying sudo won't allow the install
[06:12] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: you know. editing a previous URL
[06:12] <nixternal> Burgundavia: is it possible to set the address bar to use tab to autocomplete instead of loosing focus on the address bar?
[06:12] <LaserJock> I talked with you once
[06:13] <crimsun> wrt editing URLs, I'm convinced that epiphany-browser has it correct, whereas opera/ff/etc. have it broken.
[06:14] <Burgundavia> nixternal: no idea
[06:14] <Burgundavia> losing focus is one of the most annoying bugs ephy has
[06:14] <nixternal> i have jsut gotten so used to hitting tab to autocomplete, and i hate when i loose focus with epiphany doing so
[06:14] <Burgundavia> the ephy devs have to do a lot of hacking around moz stupidness
[06:14] <LaserJock> crimsun: I know you do but I just can't figure out how to do things efficiently otherwise
[06:14] <nixternal> i wonder why, since it is in moz
[06:14] <Burgundavia> because it is moz
[06:14] <nixternal> but then again, i heard crazy stuff about getting tree view in konversation
[06:15] <Burgundavia> moz as a platform generally sucks, unless you are using xul and all their secret sauce
[06:15] <nixternal> heh, obviously you haven't messed with KHTML
[06:15] <^Ghost2U> can someone tell me why i cannot install the opera deb pkg for ubuntu dapper?
[06:15] <nixternal> it would make you love internet explorer
[06:16] <Burgundavia> ^Ghost2U: out of the repos?
[06:16] <crimsun> it works fine out of dapper-commercial
[06:16] <LaserJock> ^Ghost2U: I'd use Canonical's dapper-commercial repo
[06:17] <^Ghost2U> off of opera's mirror
[06:17] <LaserJock> crimsun: why do think epi's got it right? it seems odd to me but I'm sure I can be convinced
[06:18] <^Ghost2U> quote: The underlying authorization mechanism (sudo) does not allow you to run this program. Contact your syste, administrator
[06:18] <crimsun> LaserJock: well, first it's just my opinion. second, I tend to use bookmarks far more often than editing URLs in-place.
[06:19] <LaserJock> crimsun: that would make a difference. I don't use *any* bookmarks really
[06:19] <^Ghost2U> ok.. assume I'm totally ignorant of retreiving from the repos (I am), what to do?
[06:19] <LaserJock> I find bookmarks somewhat annoying
[06:20] <nixternal> svn commit -m "The Feisty Fawn - 7.04 is in the repos - sorry, I was iching to do this one ;)"
[06:20] <nixternal> Sending        libs/global.ent
[06:20] <nixternal> woo0t
[06:20] <nixternal> would have been nice if i was in the doc channel like i had planned
[06:20] <nixternal> im glad i can spell itching as well
[06:20] <crimsun> ^Ghost2U: echo "deb http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu main dapper-commercial" |sudo tee -a /etc/apt/sources.list && sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install opera
[06:26] <LaserJock> I have FF, epi, opera, and konqi and I don't particularly like any of them so I just bounce between them
[06:29] <nixternal> ya, same here
[06:29] <nixternal> i hate to say it, but i think ie6 takes the cake for browsers
[06:29] <nixternal> except the fact that it doesn't tab, but there are hacks to fix that
[06:30] <^Ghost2U> crimsun: permission problem with tee command to sources.list
[06:31] <LaserJock> ie6? have you gone nuts?
[06:31] <^Ghost2U> file attrib 644 owner root group root
[06:31] <LaserJock> :-)
[06:31] <crimsun> ^Ghost2U: did you copy and paste the entire command verbatim?
[06:31] <^Ghost2U> nix: you wold be joking, right?
[06:31] <^Ghost2U> would
[06:32] <nixternal> i would hope so, as it has been years since i last used ie
[06:32] <nixternal> ;)
[06:33] <nixternal> my brain is shot right now, and im not quick on my feet with the sarcasm it seems
[06:33] <LaserJock> nah, it was good
[06:33] <crimsun> in other news, rich is a gnome convert.
[06:33] <crimsun> swore off all kde apps two hours ago
[06:33] <nixternal> oh crimsun do not spread those lies
[06:33] <LaserJock> darn, I'm gullible today
[06:33] <nixternal> i will be hung
[06:34] <nixternal> although, i do like edubuntu ;)
[06:34] <LaserJock> why?
[06:34] <nixternal> why what?
[06:34] <^Ghost2U> well, no errors, but not sure if it's doing anything either
[06:34] <LaserJock> why would you be hung?
[06:34] <nixternal> oh, could you imagine me using gnome, while writing the karbon 14 docs for kde
[06:35] <nixternal> i would use windows before i would use gnome ;)
[06:35] <^Ghost2U> crimsun: can't... ubuntu box is another pc
[06:36] <LaserJock> nixternal: how odd, really
[06:36] <nixternal> so odd, that...
[06:37] <nixternal> i failed on that one
[06:37] <crimsun> nixternal: (not really -- most of the patches I make are done in a putty session)
[06:37] <nixternal> but crimsun, that is probably because you are working on ubuntu from "work" which is probably all ms
[06:37] <nixternal> so you have a reason, or an excuse
[06:38] <crimsun> it's because I'm working on the next Ubuntu killer!!
[06:38] <crimsun> err, yeah.
[06:40] <^Ghost2U> hmm
[06:40] <^Ghost2U> opera doesn't appear in sources.list
[06:40] <crimsun> it's not supposed to appear in sources.list
[06:40] <^Ghost2U> ok
[06:41] <crimsun> dapper-commercial is the "pocket"; opera appears in that "pocket"
[06:41] <crimsun> you can see with ``apt-cache policy opera''
[06:42] <^Ghost2U> unable to locate opera
[06:43] <^Ghost2U> W: unable to locate package opera
[06:43] <crimsun> did you add the dapper-commercial pocket and then update?
[06:44] <^Ghost2U> i banged out the commands verbatim
[06:45] <^Ghost2U> assume i'm new to edubuntu
[06:45] <^Ghost2U> but not entirely new to linux
[06:46] <Dheeraj_ku> hi is it possible to install all the package of fedora4 on ubuntu?
[06:46] <crimsun> ^Ghost2U: sudo apt-get update
[06:50] <^Ghost2U> no traffic / activity on my modem nor hdd
[06:53] <crimsun> Dheeraj_ku: what do you mean?
[06:54] <crimsun> ^Ghost2U: pastebin your /etc/apt/sources.list
[06:54] <crimsun> http://pastebin.ca , please
[06:57] <sbalneav> Well, I'm heading to bed.  Night all!
[07:01] <^Ghost2U> crimsun: post is 211130
[07:07] <LaserJock> ^Ghost2U: it doesn't look like the dapper-commercial repo was added
[07:08] <LaserJock> ^Ghost2U: maybe try sudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list in a terminal
[07:08] <LaserJock> and add the following line:
[07:09] <LaserJock> deb http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu dapper-commercial main
[07:10] <LaserJock> and then save it and run sudo apt-get update in the terminal
[07:12] <^Ghost2U> ok
[07:14] <LaserJock> once you've done that you should be able to run sudo apt-get install opera
[07:18] <^Ghost2U> now we're getting somewhere
[07:18] <^Ghost2U> :)
[07:19] <^Ghost2U> was getting some weird stuff from thin client when trying the previous stuff
[07:20] <^Ghost2U> I was actually on the client atempting to run install
[07:28] <^Ghost2U> sweet!
[07:28] <^Ghost2U> it's installed
[07:29] <^Ghost2U> LaserJock: thanks a bunch! .. gotta crash, it's almost 2AM here, and i gotta be up in 4 hrs
[07:29] <LaserJock> ok, glad it worked
[07:34] <^Ghost2U> later laser :)
[08:17] <RichEd> morning l
[08:18] <RichEd> let's try that again : morning ladies & gents
[08:18] <highvoltage> morning RichEd!
[08:18] <RichEd> hi highvoltage
[08:18] <highvoltage> we should actually all chime together like a classroom... moor-ning-mis-ter-rich-ed
[08:19] <RichEd> I meant me try that again ... I had to clear my keyboard ... the l stutter :)
[08:20] <RichEd> speaking of kiddies greeting teacher ... here's a friday feelgood link from ogra last night:
[08:20] <RichEd> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=280193
[08:20] <freet15> greeting
[08:20] <highvoltage> RichEd: I've put it on the Edubuntu website and submitted to fridge :)
[08:21] <highvoltage> hi freet15
[08:21] <RichEd> great :)
[08:21] <freet15> :) now , It`s 2:30 PM in  Beijing China
[08:22] <highvoltage> freet15: it's only 08:21 in South Africa, we still have a long hard day ahead of us
[08:22] <freet15> Highvoltage: so... morning for you  ;)
[08:23] <freet15> highvoltage:Nice to meet you
[08:26] <highvoltage> freet15: :)
[08:28] <pips1> good morning/day/evening/night to everyone
[08:29] <freet15> pips1: :) so powerfull~~
[08:29] <pips1> RichEd: did lguerra manage to speak to you yesterday?
[08:30] <pips1> freet15: ni hao ma?
[08:30] <freet15> :) ni hao, where are you?
[08:31] <pips1> Switzerland
[08:32] <highvoltage> mornign pips1
[08:33] <freet15> pips1: beautiful country ~
[08:43] <pips1> freet15: ni shi xuesheng ma?
[08:43] <RichEd> hi ... back after an adsl reset ... freet did you comment on this ? I may have missed your response.
[08:44] <RichEd> pips1: so to add to your other skills ... do you speak mandarin as well ?
[08:44] <freet15> pips1:not yet, your are chinese?!
[08:45] <pips1> freet15: no, I'm just bluffing ;-)
[08:45] <freet15> RichEd: no, we just  greet to each other.
[08:46] <freet15> ;)
[08:46] <RichEd> I am glad he is making you feel welcome here.
[08:47] <freet15> :)
[08:51] <pips1> freet15: I spent 2 months in hangchow learning mandarin, but that was 18 years ago, and with no practise, I forgot everything :-/
[08:52] <freet15> 18 years ago? *), I`m just a children that time!
[08:52] <pips1> erm hangzhou, rather
[08:52] <pips1> yes, I was 15
[08:56] <freet15> sorry, a litter busy....I was run off my feet today,
[09:01] <freet15> see you later, guys
[09:11] <pips1> so cool, found an english-mandarin (pinyin) online dictionary http://hua.umf.maine.edu/php/search.php
[09:12] <pips1> oh, there are lots of them, ok ( http://hua.umf.maine.edu/php/search.php )
[09:13] <pips1> ^^^ sorry, http://chinalinks.osu.edu/cdict.htm
[09:37] <pips1> in xchat-gnome, is there a way to enable automatic local logging?
[09:42] <pygi> morning
[09:43] <pips1> hey
[10:40] <willvdl> hi cbx33
[10:41] <RichEd> cbx33 willvdl g'mornin'
[10:41] <cbx33> hey RichEd
[10:41] <cbx33> I discovered a mad bug whilst looking for those menus
[10:41] <cbx33> ;)
[10:42] <cbx33> vmware had created nested directories up to about 128 levels
[10:42] <cbx33> I knew there was something amiss
[10:45] <lucasvo> anyone know how to edit shortcuts in FF
[10:55] <willvdl> lucasvo, meaning?
[10:55] <lucasvo> willvdl: I want to disable the alt+s shortcut
[10:57] <willvdl> ah. the help files don't say anything
[11:07] <pips1> lucasvo: did you have a look at the about:config yet?
[11:48] <ogra> pips1, did you send me the syslog ?
[11:49] <ogra> i see no mails here
[11:51] <cbx33> mornin ogra
[12:02] <pips1> wow
[12:02] <pips1> that went like really really well.. xchat on windows. :-/
[12:03] <pips1> ack
[12:04] <pips1> sorry for the noise, folks
[12:06] <ogra> pips1, did you send me the syslog ?
[12:06] <ogra> i see no mail here
[12:07] <pips1> yes i did.. should i re-send?
[12:08] <ogra> hmm, i didnt get it
[12:08] <pips1> sent to ogra at ubuntu dot com, 19.10.2006 16:49
[12:12] <pips1> the syslog attachment is about 0.6 MB... big, but shouldn't be a problem, really
[12:17] <cbx33> did you tar it up pips1 ?
[12:17] <cbx33> heheh
[12:17] <cbx33> heheh
[12:17] <ogra> pips1, did you have wires connected to both interfaces ?
[12:17] <ogra> s/wires/swithces or hubs/
[12:17] <pips1> yes
[12:17] <ogra> Oct 19 12:42:46 kernel: [   99.532168]  eth0: no link during initialization.
[12:17] <ogra> Oct 19 12:42:46 netcfg[12754] : WARNING **: couldn't determine MII ioctl to use for eth0
[12:17] <ogra> thats the only thing that doesnt look kosher
[12:17] <cbx33> dodgy cable?
[12:17] <cbx33> how are you today ogra
[12:17] <cbx33> got time for a little SCP chat later?
[12:18] <ogra> yep, a bit later ... i'm still running DVD tests ...
[12:18] <cbx33> ok sure np
[12:18] <cbx33> i have till the end of the day :p
[12:19] <pips1> I did try replacing one of the cables, but I didn't replace the cable from the server to the switch.. I was assuming there is a connection, because the lights on the switch are lit up
[12:19] <ogra> ooooh, wait
[12:20] <ogra> do you use 192.168.0.XXX for your internet access network ?
[12:20] <pips1> i don't thinks so, my router is <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:20] <ogra> can you check that ?
[12:21] <ogra> there is one case where the autconfiguration doesnt do anything, that is if the 192.168.0 range is already used for the other inbterface
[12:21] <pips1> ic
[12:22] <RichEd> hi ogra, quick question following up on my default application question yesterday ... what is the name of the files used to configure the menu [ Applications ]  [ Places ]  [ System ]
[12:22] <RichEd> ogra: and nice feelgood story about the pre-school :)
[12:23] <ogra> RichEd, the .desktop files in /usr/share/applications/ define the menu entries
[12:23] <RichEd> :) thanks
[12:23] <pips1> in my router config, it says local network ip address <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:23] <pips1> can I double check from the server somehow?
[12:23] <ogra> hmm
[12:23] <ogra> ifconfig -a
[12:24] <ogra> see if the interface has a  192.168.1 address
[12:26] <pips1> eth0 doesn't have an ip set, eth1 is on <IP_ADDRESS> <-- ?!
[12:29] <pips1> ^^^ why is eth1 on <IP_ADDRESS>, I thought it would be 192.168.1.x, or not?
[12:33] <pips1> ogra, doesn't the edubuntu server internet facing interface get an ip from my router's dhcp range (which is <IP_ADDRESS> to 63)?
[12:34] <stelis> pips1: Mine does
[12:34] <stelis> It's a development release...
[12:34] <stelis> FWIW
[12:35] <stelis> stelis: I was
[12:35] <pips1> heh
[12:35] <stelis> I discovered that solution was to leave it alone
[12:35] <pips1> :)
[12:35] <stelis> And Edubuntu do what it wanted
[12:36] <stelis> My router uses <IP_ADDRESS> network
[12:36] <stelis> And Edubuntu uses <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:36] <stelis> I screwed it up trying to customise it the first ime arounds
[12:37] <stelis> I notice that settings a static address for the external connection
[12:37] <stelis> Doesn't seem to set the default gateway
[12:38] <pips1> hmm
[12:38] <stelis> What's your current setup?
[12:38] <pips1> hardware or software setup?
[12:39] <stelis> network, I guess
[12:39] <stelis> You should have a router with DHCP, and Edubuntu system with 2 interfaces, right?
[12:39] <pips1> internet - adsl modem/router - hub - edubuntu server - switch - thin client
[12:40] <stelis> Is that a separate hub?
[12:40] <pips1> yes
[12:40] <pips1> separate?
[12:40] <stelis> Not built-in to the router itself
[12:40] <pips1> yes, separate
[12:41] <pips1> I connect to the hub with my laptop, so I can stay connected to IRC while testing
[12:41] <stelis> So DHCP is probably OK on the router
[12:41] <pips1> yes
[12:42] <stelis> OK, so the issue is with the interface configuration on Edubuntu...
[12:42] <pips1> ah, let me check the ip i currently have on my laptop
[12:43] <pips1> my laptop, coming from the hub, has ip <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:43] <stelis> That may be the issue
[12:43] <pips1> while I thought it would get an ip from my routers dhcp range...
[12:43] <pips1> hmm
[12:44] <stelis> You need two separate networks
[12:44] <pips1> what the heck is my router doing?
[12:44] <stelis> The router's network needs to be different from Edubuntu's
[12:44] <stelis> In other words...
[12:44] <stelis> Not <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:45] <pips1> yes
[12:45] <stelis> Try resetting your router to use something different
[12:45] <stelis> Like <IP_ADDRESS>/<IP_ADDRESS>
[12:46] <pips1> but i wonder why it's 192.168.0.x since my router configuration is telling me that its ip address is <IP_ADDRESS> and its dhcp range is <IP_ADDRESS> - 63 ?
[12:46] <stelis> You've got two DHCP servers
[12:47] <pips1> correct
[12:47] <stelis> You're laptop is picking up from Edubuntu
[12:47] <pips1> on on the router, the other one on the edubuntu server
[12:47] <stelis> Rather than the router
[12:48] <pips1> that's strange
[12:48] <stelis> The question is which Edubuntu itself is using for configuring it's interfaces...
[12:48] <stelis> You can only safely have one DHCP server on a given network segment
[12:48] <pips1> right
[12:49] <stelis> Which raise the question of why my setup works :)
[12:49] <ogra> do you have bo0th cards plugged in the same switch/hub or something like that ?
[12:49] <stelis> My setup is more funky...
[12:49] <pips1> ogra, no
[12:49] <stelis> I have a DSL router with DHCP, a laptop running Vmware
[12:50] <ogra> the edubuntu dhcp shouldnt see the other one ...
[12:50] <stelis> The Edubuntu network is virtual with VMware
[12:50] <pips1> ogra, yes, but there seems something bizarre going on here
[12:50] <ogra> yeah
[12:50] <stelis> ogra: would it be possible for the Edubuntu default to be different?
[12:51] <stelis> Since network routers default to <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:51] <ogra> ifr they are physically parted networks, you shouldnt see the 192.168.0 net from your laptop if its attached to the router
[12:51] <stelis> I wonder about the hub that pip1 has
[12:52] <ogra> stelis, yes, thats planned for later ... we had this default for quite some time, so i didnt want to force the switch yet
[12:52] <pips1> it's a shitty old hub
[12:52] <stelis> Could you remove it and see what happens?
[12:52] <pips1> some no name crap
[12:52] <ogra> whats the ip setup of your edubuntu server ?
[12:52] <stelis> ogra: OK, great
[12:52] <ogra> paste ifconfig -a somewhere
[12:53] <ogra> and i assume you didnt change your /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf
[12:53] <pips1> ogra, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27459/
[12:54] <pips1> no, I did change it
[12:54] <ogra> eth1 is connected to the outside world ?
[12:55] <ogra> and eth0 isnt connected at all ...
[12:55] <pips1> I think so... how can I double check, to see if my pci card is eth0?
[12:55] <ogra> i bet youre network cables are plugged in flipped
[12:56] <pips1> ifconfig only has the mac address, rather than harware vendor info...
[12:57] <ogra> flip tha cables and reboot th eedubuntu server
[12:57] <ogra> i bet it works then
[12:57] <ogra> *the
[12:57] <pips1> flip what cables?
[12:57] <ogra> on the edubuntu server
[12:58] <pips1> ok, i'll try
[01:01] <pips1> ogra, now I don't have internet connection on the server
[01:01] <ogra> intresting
[01:02] <ogra> i wonder if you have a third dhcpd running somewhere
[01:02] <pips1> and neither network interface has an ip
[01:02] <pips1> ahhh!
[01:02] <ogra> do you ?
[01:02] <pips1> possibly
[01:02] <pips1> I have a hardware firewall that might be running a dhcp on it's own!
[01:03] <ogra> well, that would be it ... flip the cables back, find the other dhcpd and fix the edubuntu net setup :)
[01:04] <pips1> so, in fact I got: internet - asdl modem/router w dhcp - hw firewall w dhcp - hub - edubuntu server
[01:04] <pips1> ack!
[01:04] <ogra> ok
[01:04] <pips1> so I got a chain of dhcp servers
[01:04] <ogra> for feisty i'll regenerate the ip config if 192.168.0 is found
[01:04] <pips1> =8-O
[01:04] <ogra> then it would work even in that setup
[01:05] <pips1> aren't all those nifty home networking appliances cool ? ;-)
[01:05] <pips1> each with it's very own dhcp server
[01:05] <stelis> They Just Work :)
[01:06] <pips1> well
[01:06] <stelis> But not together :)
[01:06] <pips1> hehe
[01:06] <ogra> :)
[01:08] <ogra> so your non working install was actually not a bug but a known missing feature in the design, thats calming :)
[01:08] <pips1> so ogra, should i try to re-configure my hw firewall's dhcp, or should i re-configure my edubuntu server? what do you think?
[01:10] <pips1> right...
[01:10] <ogra> i'd kill the dhcpd on the firewall
[01:10] <cbx33> yikes lots of activity here :0
[01:10] <pips1> I hope it'l have that option
[01:10] <ogra> well, you said it worked in former installs, just change back what you changed since then ;)
[01:10] <stelis> cbx33: we defeated the problem for force of numbers
[01:10] <cbx33> heheh
[01:10] <cbx33> hi stelis not seen you aroung here?
[01:11] <stelis> This is about day 6 as an Edubuntu user
[01:11] <stelis> I've been around just since the beginning of the week
[01:12] <stelis> It's very cool stuff
[01:12] <stelis> I used to  run a diskless workstation network for a school
[01:12] <cbx33> ahhh nice
[01:12] <stelis> We had to "upgrade"
[01:12] <stelis> Nt 4
[01:12] <stelis> One giant step forward for MS
[01:12] <stelis> One massive step back for us
[01:14] <stelis> It's great to see that LTSP seems to be bringing it back
[01:14] <cbx33> yeh
[01:14] <cbx33> edubuntu rocks
[01:18] <stelis> I get the impression that Edubuntu is kind of new?
[01:18] <stelis> Fetch the hammer :)
[01:18] <RichEd> stelis: April 2005 was its birth month
[01:18] <stelis> RichEd: I'm just behind then :)
[01:18] <stelis> RichEd: I hope that the mail to ubuntu-education was helpful
[01:18] <RichEd> Ah ... did you send that mail ... it was great thanks !
[01:19] <stelis> I looked at it this morning and thought
[01:19] <stelis> "That's a touch ranty"
[01:20] <RichEd> Those are exactly the sort of issue we share in comon across products and want to share and discuss !
[01:20] <stelis> But yeah, the list price of software is not the real issue for Colleges
[01:20] <RichEd> Here's the coment I added, before pasting a chunk into the #ubuntu-education channel:

[01:20] <RichEd> An excerpt from a post to the list this morning ... something which never occured to me, but an issue I understand well from my "commercial days" and my 3rd degree allergy to paperwork asset registers and audit trails:
[01:20] <stelis> So "Open Source is cheaper" is not an effective pitch, IMHO

[01:23] <highvoltage> stelis: I'm with you on that last one. there are also much better reasons to go with OSS :)
[01:23] <stelis> I had an anecdote about switching to an OSS product solely because the vendor's licencing strategy made it so difficult for us to do the right thing
[01:23] <stelis> We wanted to give them their money :)
[01:23] <RichEd> stelis: mail it to me directly if you still have it in mind.
[01:23] <stelis> highvoltage: true
[01:24] <stelis> RichEd: Will do
[01:24] <RichEd> And in general ... its not just the school world that has admin nightmares looking after licences and renewals and papwerwork. I would guess that in some organisations the cost of the admin time (and systems) might even outweigh the licence fees.
[01:24] <stelis> RichEd: for utility software definitely
[01:24] <stelis> Trivial stuff like FTP clients and CD writing software
[01:25] <stelis> The bundled Windows apps are not sufficient
[01:25] <stelis> So we have to pile more software on top
[01:25] <stelis> Some of which only costs $20 on something a go
[01:26] <stelis> But decision-makers don't understand why it's necessary
[01:26] <RichEd> (and SQL client access licenses and such like)
[01:26] <stelis> And it means more vendors to deal with
[01:26] <stelis> RichEd: Yes
[01:26] <stelis> The nickle-and-dime stuff
[01:27] <RichEd> And factor in the cost of work interruption when the piracy police come with the forensic microscope and rubber gloves.
[01:27] <stelis> It rarely happens but there is a dedicated shop your boss telephone line
[01:28] <stelis> An unhappy employee could score money and a bit of revenge just by ringing the BSA
[01:28] <stelis> At any time
[01:28] <stelis> So we have to be water-tight
[01:31] <stelis> I wondered about the dialling code on your phone number
[01:31] <stelis> I'm in the UK
[01:31] <pips1_> RichEd, really?! wow
[01:31] <cbx33> stelis/......ooooh me too
[01:31] <cbx33> whereare you based?
[01:31] <stelis> Wales
[01:31] <RichEd> I'm in Cape Town, South Africa
[01:32] <stelis> Beyond the borders of civilisation
[01:32] <stelis> A southerner!
[01:36] <stelis> (from Yorkshire originally)
[01:36] <stelis> RichEd: Is Ubuntu doing well there?
[01:36] <RichEd> stelis: short answer ... no better or wose than elsewhere ... we do not have a stong open source general mindset ... but we have strong pockets of motivated individuals
[01:36] <stelis> That sounds a lot like the UK
[01:36] <cbx33> stelis
[01:36] <cbx33> yup
[01:36] <stelis> It's disappointing
[01:36] <cbx33> indeed
[01:36] <RichEd> we have had a good wide scale deployment of ICT in schools over the last 3 years, but the first round of installs and training were MS based ... and now there is an embedded base to turn-around.
[01:36] <cbx33> it's nice to find another uk person
[01:36] <stelis> cbx33: This global thing is mind-blowing
[01:36] <RichEd> As a whole, Ubuntu (and open source) is being embraced by developing nations where there is little invested capex and market forces are not yet mature.
[01:37] <cbx33> stelis....yeh it is
[01:37] <stelis> cx33: You probably are the first UK OSS person I've met here
[01:37] <pips1_> capex?
[01:37] <RichEd> So if you look eastwards, we see numbers like 300,000 OEM installs.
[01:37] <stelis> RichEd: That sounds brilliant
[01:37] <stelis> Our problem is that government agencies specify Windows-only solutions
[01:38] <stelis> And say that there is no demand for Linux support
[01:38] <cbx33> stelis...heheh
[01:38] <stelis> Circular arguments
[01:39] <stelis> pip1: Capital expenditure
[01:39] <pips1_> stelis, ta
[01:39] <stelis> Money sunk in licences and Windows-only hardware...
[01:40] <stelis> "We've spent the money so we'll keeping using what doesn't work"
[01:40] <stelis> head, meet wall
[01:40] <pips1_> yeah, there are huge amounts of money sunk into licencse alone. here in the municipalities in Switzerland..
[01:42] <stelis> pips1_: The numbers are scary
[01:42] <willvdl> stelis, civil societies in africa are genrally quite pro-OSS
[01:42] <stelis> You could fund all of Ubuntu on what gets wasted
[01:42] <pips1_> a recent study in switzerland showed that the licences alone account for 47% of the municipalities' IT expenses
[01:43] <cbx33> stelis too true
[01:43] <stelis> willvdl: I don't not much about non-profits here
[01:43] <stelis> pips1: Do you have a link?
[01:43] <stelis> I collect advocacy articles
[01:43] <willvdl> additionally, the blossoming mobile comms market in Africa is looking critically at linux backends, db services, convergence etc
[01:44] <willvdl> stelis, you may then just be my new best friend :)
[01:44] <stelis> willvdl: I'm convinced that Linux will prbably win by killing desktop PCs
[01:44] <pips1_> stelis, the information available online about that study is meagre, and german only
[01:45] <stelis> And replacing with OLPC andthin clients, and appliance type stuff
[01:45] <willvdl> that is the question isn't it?
[01:45] <willvdl> kiosk mode desktops for specific applications
[01:45] <stelis> pips1_: OK. Thanks
[01:45] <stelis> willvdl: Everything else is unmanageable IMO
[01:45] <stelis> I see Windows-based ATMs
[01:46] <stelis> Because that's what developers, know
[01:46] <RichEd> stelis: cbx33 and I were looking at taking an approach in the UK as follows to counter the issues you raise ...
[01:46] <RichEd> <paste warning>
[01:46] <stelis> But they are horrific
[01:46] <RichEd> > "If we look back from 5 years into the future, Open Source is
[01:46] <RichEd> > a reality which will be used to some extent in UK Schools.
[01:46] <RichEd> >
[01:46] <RichEd> > Arguments about whether Open Source or Microsoft will dominate
[01:46] <RichEd> > are not relevant. Arguments about whether or not to throw out
[01:46] <RichEd> > Microsoft in favour of Linux are also not on the table.
[01:46] <RichEd> >
[01:46] <RichEd> > What is relevant is that there needs to be some investigation
[01:46] <RichEd> > into the impact of some Open Source on an existing schools
[01:46] <RichEd> > network:
[01:46] <RichEd> >
[01:46] <RichEd> > 1. Open Source workstations first
[01:46] <RichEd> > = interacting with the Windows network
[01:46] <RichEd> > 2. then Open Source servers
[01:46] <RichEd> > = allowing MS workstations to interact with them"
[01:46] <RichEd> >
[01:46] <RichEd> > We hope then to get to demonstrate to the "MS flavour support
[01:46] <RichEd> > people and the decision making powers" that Open Source:
[01:46] <RichEd> > 1. has a place within UK Education right now
[01:47] <RichEd> > 2. is not a future big bang issue or 100% change over issue
[01:47] <RichEd> > 3. is not as scary or complex as it seems from the outside
[01:47] <stelis> RichEd: I would take a different line of attack
[01:47] <RichEd> even if we started a schools SIG for maths and science and open source programming with a few Edubuntu w/s in many schools, it may start a change in mindeset.
[01:47] <stelis> Which may seem slightly out of scope, but IMO is vital
[01:48] <stelis> OK: What absolutely locks us into Windows are a handful of key applications
[01:48] <stelis> Like electronic exam systems and certified student tracking systems
[01:49] <stelis> Funding boaides and exam boards say we *must* run these
[01:50] <pips1_> student tracking system = ?
[01:50] <stelis> Enrolments
[01:50] <willvdl> like schooltool...emis, sams
[01:50] <stelis> willvdl: not quite
[01:50] <pips1_> right
[01:50] <pips1_> stelis ?
[01:50] <stelis> As a College we are paid by results
[01:51] <stelis> We must deliver paperwork to funding bodies that who was enrolled, on what courses, and what the outcomes were
[01:51] <stelis> There are only a small number of vendors selling applications to track and process this information
[01:51] <willvdl> stelis, other lock-ins include existing skill-sets,
[01:51] <stelis> We pay them a lot and run what they tell us to
[01:52] <stelis> willvdL: Yes, but this is what shuts out even Linux desktops
[01:52] <stelis> And Macs
[01:52] <willvdl> and the cost of migration
[01:52] <stelis> And anything that will not run the client portions
[01:52] <pips1_> yep
[01:52] <willvdl> agreed. the initial costs are qhat scare decision makers
[01:53] <stelis> willvdl: You are slightly ahead of me
[01:53] <willvdl> and not the long-term benefits
[01:53] <stelis> Let me try to explain this
[01:53] <stelis> I can potentially offer a desktop, Web browser, and office suite on any platform
[01:53] <^Ghost2U> Mornin' all
[01:54] <stelis> We use MS Office because everybody is familiar with it, but there are ways to work on that
[01:54] <willvdl> agreed
[01:55] <stelis> What kills any alternative desktop is the hard requirement to run Windows for exam software, courseware, and data porcessing apps
[01:55] <stelis> We have have to run exactly the application that we are told to
[01:55] <ogra> well, in edgy+1 we'll have full rdesktop support in ltsp ... so you can use one edubuntu ltsp server, one windows terminal server and got thze best of both worlds
[01:55] <ogra> and are still able to maintain everything centralized on the two servers
[01:55] <stelis> ogra: That's really important, but there's another piece to this...
[01:56] <willvdl> stelis, ah, in the UK schooling context that is?
[01:56] <stelis> I'm talking about both schools and colleges
[01:57] <stelis> OK: the thing that I think is critical...
[01:57] <stelis> The vendors themselves have been moving to Web-based server applications
[01:58] <stelis> Typically: a Windows server with SQL Server or Oracle with IIS
[01:58] <stelis> And ActiveX controls that require IE on Windows on the desktop
[01:58] <willvdl> In SA, our national dept of Ed has a SAMS/EMIS/Learner tracking requirement too. They provide a (DB) framework but can not enforce provincial decisions as to what tools to use.
[01:59] <RichEd> stelis: while I agree with all of your arguments, the situation above describes a corner we get painted into ... make your software do exactly what our software does, and then we will consider changing to FOSS ... and this can lead to:
[01:59] <RichEd> * the feared either or situation
[01:59] <willvdl> But they do make one tool available free of charge to all schools nationally, a windows based app
[01:59] <stelis> RichEd: Here's my suggestion
[02:00] <stelis> The next generation of Open Source Web application frameworks are objectively better than .NET
[02:00] <RichEd> * FOSS having to show that it can do *exactly* what is already being done (down to particualr app) instead of tackling the education need in a generic fashion
[02:00] <stelis> And the vendors don't actually care
[02:00] <stelis> They could migrate to say TurboGears  or Rails
[02:01] <stelis> Their developers would benwfit
[02:01] <pips1_> I read that on your post on the mailing list... and it got me thinking too... I agree that there is a big move towards webbased user interfaces and that we should make sure that open source offers usable solutions in that area...
[02:01] <stelis> And as a side-effect, the applications would be platform neutral
[02:01] <stelis> Again the vendors are Windows only because portability takes effort
[02:01] <willvdl> pips1_, the developing world is _not_ that well suited to centralised services though
[02:02] <stelis> A TurboGears app can run on either Linux or Windows server
[02:02] <pips1_> willvdl, right
[02:02] <stelis> And the client could be any browser
[02:02] <willvdl> if you look at african movements towards localisation and translation
[02:02] <stelis> So OSS support would be a side-effect of better tools
[02:03] <willvdl> the successful efforts are all distributed
[02:03] <willvdl> stelis, food for thought
[02:03] <stelis> If Canonical can support and promote a Web application framework
[02:04] <stelis> You can encourage migration to both dedicated servers intially
[02:04] <stelis> and break the locks that keep out OSS desktops
[02:04] <stelis> Many of these apps run on a separate server
[02:04] <stelis> Supplied by the vendor
[02:05] <stelis> They run Windows for SQL Server and .NET, bu they could run Ubuntu
[02:05] <stelis> Without impacting the rest of the network at all
[02:06] <stelis> Again the vendors will go for the platform that is easiest for them
[02:06] <stelis> And Linux also virtualizes better than Windows
[02:07] <stelis> And you can run a Linux box without having to think about separate AV or backup software
[02:07] <stelis> Which they have to ship on their dedicated app servers today
[02:08] <stelis> And that's my idea really
[02:08] <pips1_> stelis, maybe you are overrating the quality of current FOSS web frameworks... dunno.
[02:08] <stelis> pips1_: True, but they suck less then Oracle and Java
[02:08] <stelis> And Rails is fashionable
[02:09] <willvdl> and have a lower barrier to entry
[02:09] <stelis> Developers want these tools
[02:09] <stelis> As they wanted .NET and SQL Server
[02:09] <stelis> Because those were the most painless ways to build applications
[02:10] <stelis> This point applies to internally-developed applications as well
[02:10] <ogra> rails might be fashionable, but if you will see a canonical pushed framework it will rather be zope/python i guess
[02:10] <stelis> ogra: True. But that's an example
[02:10] <pips1_> I mean, the communities of Rails and TurboGears are so small compared to visual studio / .NET crowd..
[02:11] <stelis> And Rails is making the idea of frameworks visible to developers
[02:11] <stelis> Rails is growing insanely rapidly - with regional conferences springing up etc.
[02:13] <stelis> And people that know Rails can grok TurboGears
[02:13] <stelis> TurboGears + PostgreSQL on Ubuntu can do most or all of what the applications need
[02:13] <stelis> Without the headaches that Windows and MS bring
[02:14] <stelis> I probably sound like a stuck record
[02:14] <pips1_> ogra, judging from the last Europython conference, unfortunately a lot of balkanisation has happened... with the Zope2 Zope3 split, and the new frameworks like TurboGears and Django...
[02:14] <stelis> RichEd: I guess that you have to determine your target audience
[02:15] <stelis> Active Directory management is a powerful disincentive to alternate platforms
[02:15] <stelis> And again, ActiveX etc. kill the use of Linux
[02:16] <RichEd> stelis: yes ... bear in mind I'm advocating both approaches, not an either or ... tackle from both ends.
[02:16] <stelis> I'm not sure that this works
[02:17] <stelis> I'm sorry to sound a bit stubborn, but this is my job :)
[02:17] <stelis> Here's the scenario that kills Edubuntu use
[02:17] <RichEd> I'll take it to be conviction, and not subbornness.
[02:17] <RichEd> *stubborness
[02:17] <stelis> I am a little passionate about this :)
[02:18] <RichEd> we all are ... or else we wouldn't be here :)
[02:18] <stelis> Anyhow, my problem is that whilst you can use Edubuntu to enable advocates to push for change
[02:18] <stelis> You can't maintain those beachheads
[02:19] <stelis> Eventually an exam board or funding body will mandate applications or on-line services that are Windows-only
[02:19] <stelis> And the Linux desktops will either have to be reverted
[02:20] <jsgotangco> yo!
[02:20] <pips1_> so stelis, to summarise your approach, you are thinking, leverage the individual strengths that linux and the exisiting FOSS communities have: web server + developer tools...
[02:20] <stelis> Or there needs to be workaround like a separate Windows Terminal server
[02:20] <stelis> pips1_: It doesn't address the desktop problem directly
[02:21] <RichEd> Agreed. But what it will do, is help clear up the confusion surrounding Open Source that I think is being maintained by some people with vested interest or fears, by showing decision makers that it is able to exist side-by-side with other workstationsm, use existing authentication etc.
[02:21] <RichEd> Much MS promoted messages against Open Source is about spreading fear and confusion around a "theroretical enemy".
[02:22] <stelis> RichEd: I agree that beacon sites are critical to prove that it can be done
[02:22] <jsgotangco> hmmm?
[02:22] <RichEd> Much resistance to adoption comes from techies who know only MS and who do not want to tackle new areas where they may not be seen as a demi-god.
[02:22] <stelis> But again /one/ of the prerequisites for sustaining even those is application support
[02:22] <jsgotangco> RichEd: like me
[02:22] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:23] <stelis> RichEd: I very much agree
[02:23] <stelis> Lack of application support is eagerly seized as an excuse to push OSS back
[02:23] <RichEd> Yep. But take a look at this blog post over a coffee ... from our Community Manager - Jono Bacon::
[02:23] <RichEd> http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=687
[02:24] <cbx33> man I hate MS
[02:24] <cbx33> sorry just throw that in there
[02:24] <cbx33> but just everything about it seems to stink
[02:24] <jsgotangco> cbx33: sure but its part of life ;)
[02:24] <stelis> My fear is that the pioneers pushing Linux desktops today will move on, and that the schools etc. that have been beacons which swtich back over time
[02:24] <RichEd> Look at what he says Open Source can teach, wide of the syllabus & exam requirements. To me the skills he says Open Source breeds are key to survival in the Globally Connected Village & Economy.
[02:24] <pips1_> cbx33, LOL
[02:25] <cbx33> sorry I can do the whole....word argumentative side...but at the end of the day....I revert to childhood ism
[02:25] <stelis> And that will be "proof" that OSS doesn't work
[02:25] <jsgotangco> proof?
[02:25] <jsgotangco> heck
[02:26] <cbx33> and I can still play my games ;)
[02:26] <stelis> cbx33: That's actually one of the reaons why I'm probably leaving .edu
[02:26] <cbx33> stelis...I'd love to leave edu...but
[02:26] <stelis> Teaching to pass exams, rather than learning
[02:26] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:26] <stelis> cbx33: That's my problem
[02:27] <jsgotangco> but we have a different edu situation here anyways
[02:27] <stelis> jsgotangco: That's interesting
[02:27] <cbx33> jsgotangco: that rocks
[02:27] <cbx33> stelis, do you work in a school?
[02:27] <pips1_> stelis, that's an interesting point, about the "teaching to pass exams"... I had discussions about this myself
[02:28] <stelis> I work at a College
[02:28] <stelis> Before that a school
[02:28] <cbx33> do you get much vandalism there?
[02:28] <stelis> cbx33: Opportunistic
[02:28] <cbx33> mice getting ripped out
[02:28] <pips1_> cbx33, yeah, scary
[02:28] <stelis> We fitted optical mice and case locks
[02:28] <stelis> And that stopped it
[02:29] <cbx33> stelis....think we havn't
[02:30] <cbx33> they "rip" the mouse off the end of the lead
[02:30] <stelis> We've had a couple of those
[02:30] <stelis> The bottom line is that some of them are very, very bored and fed up
[02:30] <cbx33> yeh
[02:30] <pips1_> yep
[02:30] <pips1_> consumer gen
[02:30] <cbx33> but it's no excuse
[02:30] <willvdl> cbx33, we had mouseballs stolen by the dozens
[02:30] <willvdl> they make good marbles
[02:30] <cbx33> willvdl, oh yeh...
[02:30] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[02:30] <cbx33> but have you had soldering irons on optical sensors?
[02:30] <cbx33> ours is sometimes just blatent distruction
[02:30] <lguerra> hi all
[02:30] <stelis> cbx33: Soldering irons?
[02:30] <lguerra> RichEd: ping
[02:30] <willvdl> optical mice solve that problem but then the kids try and blind each other with the lasers
[02:31] <stelis> Electronics lab?
[02:31] <cbx33> tech yeh
[02:31] <jsgotangco> hahahaha
[02:35] <RichEd> hi lguerra ...
[02:35] <lguerra> how are you?
[02:35] <willvdl> cbx33, you keep soldering irons and mice in the same room?
[02:35] <cbx33> wilvdl, it was a tech room
[02:35] <stelis> Well the mice aren't staying :)
[02:35] <cbx33> now insome rooms we take the mice back at the end of each lesson
[02:35] <cbx33> keep them in a box
[02:35] <cbx33> that's how bad it is
[02:35] <stelis> I guess that what it comes down to is that they don't want to be there
[02:35] <willvdl> ah. I do remember blowing up an old 286 at varisty. It was fun but I don't publically condone or advocate such actions
[02:35] <cbx33> yeh
[02:35] <cbx33> hehehe
[02:35] <stelis> You can't run Linux on a 286 :)
[02:35] <cbx33> :(
[02:35] <stelis> So I think it's forgivab;e :)
[02:35] <cbx33> oooh i dunno
[02:35] <pips1_> cu l8r guys
[02:35] <BonBonTheJon> willvdl: how did you make it blow up
[02:35] <willvdl> BonBonTheJon, it involved high voltages, a large ceramic capacitor and possible some spilled tea. I'm not going to give out the exact recipe as children might be listening
[02:35] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:35] <cbx33> willvdl.....oooh.....
[02:35] <jsgotangco> might give me an idea for next week
[02:35] <cbx33> I'd like to try that with a graphics card someday
[02:35] <BonBonTheJon> willvdl: I''ve seen a video where someone removed a heatsink and made a processor explode, but 286 didnt need a heatsink
[02:35] <willvdl> cbx33, edgerton's boomer ... it's way cool
[02:35] <willvdl> let's jsut say the 286 needed prompting
[02:35] <cbx33> willvdl....you gotta share that with me
[02:36] <jsgotangco> when i was in school, we used to have comptuers that used casette tapes for storage
[02:36] <BonBonTheJon> lol
[02:36] <jsgotangco> man that was a long time ago
[02:36] <willvdl> a fantastic visual display of Faraday's Law, Ampere's Law and a hole in the roof
[02:36] <BonBonTheJon> i still love my commodore 64
[02:36] <jsgotangco> well nothing beats the commodore 64 in educational content
[02:37] <cbx33> hehehe
[02:37] <stelis> Was the BBC Micro available outside the UK?
[02:37] <willvdl> yip
[02:37] <stelis> I loved the tutle robot
[02:37] <willvdl> the zx spectrum was big here
[02:42] <jsgotangco> i used to have a trs-80 portable before
[02:42] <jsgotangco> it had and 8-liner LCD
[02:42] <jsgotangco> and ran on dry cells
[02:42] <cbx33> heheh
[02:42] <jsgotangco> the poor unit was used to death
[02:42] <willvdl> I remember building one from raw components. It could control a sprinkler system.
[02:42] <stelis> Was that a clamshell?
[02:42] <stelis> Or an all-in-one unit?
[02:42] <willvdl> jsgotangco, or just port them?
[02:42] <jsgotangco> nahh..just a keypad and lcd in one rectangular box
[02:42] <stelis> In all seriousness, DOS emulation would be a big deal
[02:42] <cbx33> heheheh
[02:42] <jsgotangco> port the actual games?
[02:42] <willvdl> yip
[02:42] <cbx33> jsgotangco: go go go
[02:42] <willvdl> in SA we have loads of legacy DOS educational s/w
[02:42] <jsgotangco> well some of them are not exactly free software to begin with
[02:42] <willvdl> that is actually quite good apparently
[02:42] <stelis> willvdl: That's true here
[02:42] <willvdl> jsgotangco, the developers have probably all died of old age
[02:42] <stelis> Machine control stuff only started to migrate recently-ish
[02:42] <jsgotangco> that's true
[02:42] <jsgotangco> willvdl: the idea just sprang up a few days ago at work for that
[02:45] <willvdl> porting them?
[02:45] <jsgotangco> nahh..just load up the images in an emulator
[02:45] <cbx33> is there no emulator for linux?
[02:45] <jsgotangco> oh there is
[02:46] <willvdl> jsgotangco, btw I'm meeting with mindset next week so if there is anything you'd like to find out etc. drop me an email
[02:46] <jsgotangco> willvdl: will do make a list thanks for the notic
[02:46] <jsgotangco> e
[02:47] <jsgotangco> cbx33: its called VICE
[02:47] <cbx33> oooh
[02:49] <jsgotangco> well the platform (c64) has tons of educational stuff, but also tons of time wasters (games)
[02:50] <willvdl> not time-wasters...they build keyboard skills, response times and that killer instinct required for military services
[02:51] <stelis> Making them wickedly accurate with laser mice :)
[02:51] <cbx33> jsgotangco: could we shipo it?
[02:52] <cbx33> or start porting stuff
[02:52] <cbx33> how useful is useful?
[02:54] <willvdl> shipo?
[02:55] <jsgotangco> cbx33: well you can start looking at the 10,000+ catalog
[02:55] <cbx33> ah
[02:55] <cbx33> paid for?
[02:55] <cbx33> or OSS?
[02:55] <jsgotangco> nahhh
[02:56] <jsgotangco> some of them actually allow you to distribute the software
[02:56] <jsgotangco> but they retain copyright (obviously)
[02:56] <cbx33> yeh
[02:56] <cbx33> do you think ti's worth looking into?
[02:56] <cbx33> when you say use ful, how useful...
[02:56] <jsgotangco> depends on the software
[02:57] <jsgotangco> ive seen software for it that involved other stuff in education, say life scienes
[02:57] <cbx33> we could include them for edgy + 1 and the best of the best could be ported for edgy + 2
[02:57] <willvdl> and presumably the ontext of the educational environment it's applicable to
[02:58] <willvdl> cbx33, or include them in an "education content marketplace"
[02:58] <jsgotangco> as long as the kids don't discover that they can playe M.U.L.E. and Maniac Mansion
[02:58] <cbx33> MANIAC MANSION
[02:58] <willvdl> or that I discover I can play them :P
[02:58] <cbx33> jsgotangco: http://www.progbox.co.uk/thesis/
[02:59] <jsgotangco> defender of the crown and hardball
[02:59] <jsgotangco> haha
[02:59] <pips1> hey ogra do you have a tip.. I am still trying to get my network config to work... I tried to disable dhcp on the hw firewall, but then the edubuntu server complains that network autoconfiguration failed since it couldn't find a dhcp. I looks as if my firewall is blocking the dhcp from the router ?! ack. Should I try to disable dhcp on the router and enable it on the hw firewall instead? will that work?
[02:59] <jsgotangco> wow
[03:00] <ogra> sure, that would work, but can you set up a different ip range on the firewall ?
[03:00] <cbx33> jsgotangco: ?
[03:00] <ogra> the 192.168.0 net will make testing the final Cd difficult for you
[03:00] <jsgotangco> i didnt know matlab can do that
[03:00] <cbx33> heheh it can with me at the helm...
[03:01] <cbx33> I had to write my open midi file importer
[03:01] <cbx33> check out the pdf for complete code listings
[03:01] <pips1> I think so, yes. I tried to set the hw firewall to <IP_ADDRESS>, but then I couldn't connect to anything anymore
[03:02] <pips1> ogra, can you suggest an ip for the hw firewall that might work?
[03:02] <pips1> (my router is on <IP_ADDRESS>)
[03:03] <ogra> make it <IP_ADDRESS> or something and let it serve  192.168.1.XXX for dhcp
[03:03] <pips1> ah
[03:04] <jsgotangco> cbx33: i was looking into this tool to create interactive fiction
[03:04] <jsgotangco> i thought its something that can be useful in an education sense, it might have been done before though, i wouldn't know
[03:04] <cbx33> which tool?
[03:05] <jsgotangco> i can't recall i have to look into my bookmarks
[03:05] <jsgotangco> its relatively new
[03:06] <jsgotangco> if youre familiar with the SCUMM engine, its like that
[03:06] <cbx33> oooh...cool
[03:06] <cbx33> ahh
[03:09] <willvdl> cbx33, looking at the thesis, are you using cepstra? LPC?
[03:11] <cbx33> willvdl ahhh an audio man...
[03:11] <jsgotangco> hehhe
[03:12] <jsgotangco> uh-oh
[03:12] <cbx33> it was a simple FFT, tbh cepstra is a term I remember from my Applied DSP lectures
[03:12] <willvdl> did a lot of that stuff for my thesis: wavelets, AR synthesis, LPC: traditional tools used in voice recognition
[03:12] <cbx33> but I confess I have forgotten much of it now
[03:12] <cbx33> ahhh excellet
[03:12] <jsgotangco> there are thingamajigs like that for sound????
[03:12] <cbx33> willvdl I hacked up a quick speech recognition script...it was able to get the numbers from one to ten
[03:13] <cbx33> I stored cheap spectrums
[03:13] <cbx33> and it matched over frequency content, much like the rest of my thesis used...
[03:13] <cbx33> if you find the section on MAGs it took successive snapshots of MAGs
[03:13] <jsgotangco> brb switching to dapper
[03:13] <cbx33> over the sound sample nd then matched those to a preset sample of MAGS
[03:14] <cbx33> nothing spectacular like looking at the ....oh what are they called....the parts of speech
[03:14] <cbx33> argh I've forgotten so much
[03:14] <willvdl> cbx33, quick speech recog is surprisingly easy
[03:14] <willvdl> phonemes?
[03:14] <cbx33> willvdl, so you know all about the 3D wave equation then?
[03:14] <cbx33> that's the one
[03:15] <cbx33> we did a quick lecture on ti once, but nothing great
[03:15] <cbx33> didn't get a bad mark for that old thesis ;)
[03:15] <willvdl> awesome. good memories
[03:15] <cbx33> most of the coding was done on the bus
[03:15] <cbx33> yeh indeed
[03:16] <willvdl> loved matlab too but found that LAPAC was 4 times faster
[03:16] <cbx33> never used LAPAC
[03:16] <cbx33> thought now Iwould have uysed python
[03:16] <willvdl> did it originally in fortran 90: uber-fast
[03:16] <cbx33> python is all gooey
[03:16] <cbx33> ahhh
[03:16] <cbx33> willvdl...see I never knew you were into all that kinda thing
[03:16] <cbx33> ;)
[03:17] <willvdl> fortran=fastest numerical processing language on earth...still
[03:17] <willvdl> I lectured in DSP for a while :)
[03:17] <cbx33> WOW
[03:17] <cbx33> so you can actually judge how bad my thesis is ;)
[03:17] <willvdl> nah :)
[03:18] <cbx33> I went to the ISVR in the UK
[03:18] <cbx33> supposedly a world renowned sound place
[03:18] <willvdl> Univ Stellenbosch. Got a world reknowned voice guy
[03:19] <willvdl> he invented ORED for reducing higher-order markov chains to first order...potential nobel prize in the waiting
[03:19] <cbx33> wow
[03:19] <willvdl> I gotto run, going to be late for a 3:30 meeting
[03:19] <cbx33> sorry
[03:19] <cbx33> bye willvdl
[03:20] <willvdl> ciao. must continue this convo sometime
[03:20] <cbx33> indeed
[03:20] <cbx33> we can make a realtime version of my code in python
[03:20] <highvoltage> willvdl: 3:30 meetings in cape town on a friday afternoon!?
[03:20] <willvdl> joburg :)
[03:20] <highvoltage> willvdl: well, hope you don't have to go through traffic, at least :)
[03:21] <willvdl> it involves drinks fortunately but don't tell Richard
[03:21] <willvdl> eeek the logs!
[03:21] <willvdl> ciao folks
[03:21] <highvoltage> RichEd: /clear /clear!
[03:21] <highvoltage> ciao willvdl
[04:27] <bddebian> Howdy
[05:02] <stelis> Did you beat the DHCP servers into shape?
[05:02] <pips1> nope
[05:02] <stelis> Are they still fighting then?
[05:02] <pips1> yep
[05:02] <stelis> :(
[05:03] <pips1> the main problem is that there seems to be some insane timeout in place that keeps disconnecting my access to the router / hw firewall, before I even finished configuring them...
[05:05] <stelis> You could temporarily configure your laptop with a static address in the right range
[05:05] <pips1> appart from struggling with things like "oh, I didn't realise that you need to hold the reset button for 10 secs for it to work" etc
[05:05] <pips1> :)
[05:05] <stelis> Yeah
[05:06] <stelis> I usually hold the button in until my finger starts hurt a bit
[05:06] <stelis> So that they get the message...
[05:07] <stelis> Networking can be frustrating
[05:07] <pips1> I now decided that I need to print out the different config screens.
[05:07] <pips1> yeah
[05:07] <stelis> Unfortunately all the vendors use different screens
[05:08] <pips1> grumble
[05:08] <stelis> So the chances of meeting someone else with the same is low
[05:09] <stelis> I usually set my laptop with a static address in the right range to connect to a router for configuring it
[05:09] <stelis> And then switch it over to DHCP
[05:10] <pips1> I was aiming to disable dhcp on the router and have it enabled on the firewall and set its dhcp range to another range, from 192.168.0.x to 192.168.1.xxx or smth, like ogra suggested. However, if I disable dhcp on the router, I can't even access the firewall admin interface anymore?!
[05:10] <pips1> ah
[05:11] <pips1> well, i think your suggestion for setting a static ip on the laptop for a start is good :)
[05:12] <stelis> It avoids the chicken-and-egg thing
[05:12] <pips1> question is: what static ip should i choose?
[05:12] <stelis> Any will work
[05:13] <stelis> Provided that no other device is transmitting on it
[05:13] <stelis> So 137 is as good as any
[05:13] <stelis> The DHCP probably hasn't done enough assignments to get to that  number :)
[05:15] <pips1> ok, I got two laptops here, one for irc, the other to test...
[05:16] <pips1> I just did #ifconfig eth0 <IP_ADDRESS>
[05:16] <pips1> and now I can't access my router on <IP_ADDRESS> anymore ?!
[05:16] <pips1> huh?
[05:16] <stelis> Different networks
[05:17] <stelis> It'll need a default gateway to go from 192.168.0
[05:17] <stelis> To 192.168.1
[05:18] <stelis> Because they are separate subnets
[05:18] <pips1> well, the router is on <IP_ADDRESS> network, and the firewall is on <IP_ADDRESS> network. the setup is internet - router - firewall - hub - laptops
[05:19] <stelis> OK
[05:19] <pips1> how do I enable access to my router in that case?
[05:19] <pips1> should i simply choose the static address <IP_ADDRESS> instead?
[05:20] <stelis> Hmm
[05:21] <pips1> can i set a gateway on my laptop to go with my static <IP_ADDRESS> address?
[05:21] <stelis> Does your router have a regular Ethernet socket?
[05:21] <pips1> erm, i think the answer is yes
[05:22] <stelis> Sorry, I'm confused by the router and the firewall being separate devices
[05:22] <stelis> Is the firewall a computer rather than an appliance?
[05:23] <stelis> The gateway is the device on a particular that forwards packets to other networks
[05:23] <pips1> yes, it's confusing, did I mention that its actually Device A=[adsl modem+router]  and Device B=[hw firewall+8-port switch]
[05:23] <Burgundavia> stelis: please join #ubuntu-directory
[05:23] <Burgundavia> and got a link to your spec?
[05:24] <stelis> Burgundavia:  http://www.elsn.org/main/LdapServer
[05:24] <stelis> This is my private MoinMoin
[05:25] <stelis> I didn't want to dump it directly without checking with someone
[05:25] <stelis> Things seem to be happening quickly
[05:25] <Burgundavia> stelis: the -directory team is working on this spec https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easy-ldap-server
[05:25] <Burgundavia> so can you copy your stuff to that wiki page?
[05:26] <stelis> Will do - I'll move replies over to ubuntu-directory
[05:27] <stelis> pips1: What I was thinking
[05:27] <stelis> Was that you could plug your laptop directly into the firewall
[05:27] <stelis> To do the configuration
[05:29] <pips1> stelis, excellent spec write-up!!
[05:30] <pips1> this is my no. 1 feature I have been hoping for ever since the inception of edubuntu.. :)
[05:30] <pips1> ok, back to my network prob
[05:31] <pips1> so.. stelis, you are saying you want to cut the hub out of the loop, to make things easier?
[05:35] <pips1> stelis, ping?
[05:36] <stelis> Yes
[05:36] <pips1> ^^^ ?
[05:36] <stelis> You have four networks at play, I think
[05:36] <pips1> four?!
[05:36] <stelis> My head...
[05:36] <stelis> Internet/ISP
[05:37] <stelis> The shared network between router and firewall,
[05:37] <stelis> The main private network
[05:37] <stelis> And the dedicated Edubuntu network
[05:37] <pips1> right
[05:37] <pips1> well, the last one isn't up and running yet, but that the end goal..
[05:38] <stelis> Each requires a gateway device that sits on that network, and another
[05:38] <stelis> To pass packets
[05:38] <pips1> got you
[05:38] <stelis> I'm trying to think through this slowly
[05:38] <stelis> Too many hours at the screen
[05:39] <pips1> :-/
[05:39] <stelis> The ideal thing would probably be reduce the number of networks
[05:39] <stelis> You need a router to connect your own devices to the ISP
[05:39] <pips1> well, the only network i can afford to take out is the router-firewall one
[05:40] <stelis> It would make things simpler
[05:41] <stelis> Remember that NAT protect your internal network from the Internet
[05:41] <pips1> yes, I agree. however, then I will loose out on the 8-port switch that is built-in with the firewall. I need the switch to distribute the internet traffic inside my house, for my wife's mac...
[05:41] <stelis> Ah
[05:41] <pips1> :-/
[05:42] <pips1> I *could* swap the firewall/switch for a simple switch i have at my office. (but not right now)
[05:43] <stelis> OK.
[05:43] <stelis> I would kill for a whiteboard
[05:43] <stelis> They make network stuff much easier to work out
[05:44] <ubotu> Announcement from my owner (Seveas): TheFridge
[05:44] <pips1> stelis, I think you should just copy your spec over to the ubuntu wiki, they will be happy to edit the use cases, if they think they are too long. I think its an excellent spec and hope that this can be done for the feisty release.. :-)
[05:44] <stelis> pips1:
[05:44] <stelis> I've copied it
[05:45] <pips1> good stuff
[05:45] <stelis> This is pretty big project
[05:45] <pips1> yeah
[05:45] <stelis> I'm hoping that Canonical will work on porting Fedora Directory Server
[05:45] <stelis> Which solves a lot of this
[05:46] <pips1> fingers crossed
[05:46] <stelis> Yep
[05:46] <cbx33> afternoon all
[05:46] <stelis> We desperately need this
[05:46] <stelis> Afternoon
[05:47] <pips1> hey cbx33
[05:47] <cbx33> a shared whiteboard would be great for edubuntu don;t you think?
[05:47] <pips1> meet my personal hero stelis, author of the LDAP spec
[05:47] <cbx33> stelis - dude you rock
[05:47] <stelis> I haven't volunteered to implement any of this!
[05:47] <pips1> sure
[05:47] <cbx33> heheh
[05:48] <stelis> SCP ?
[05:48] <pips1> but the info in the spec is already a good contribution
[05:48] <cbx33> Student Control Panel
[05:48] <stelis> Cool
[05:48] <stelis> What's currently there is a nice start
[05:49] <cbx33> If anyone has some ideas/suggestsions for SCP...I'll be putting the spec together over the weekend
[05:49] <cbx33> hoping ogra will have some time for a chat about it
[05:49] <pips1> do you think we can get my network setup figured out now, or should we aim to do it another time, when it's not friday night and your seeing everything at least double?
[05:50] <stelis> pips1: :)
[05:50] <stelis> PM me if you like
[05:50] <cbx33> pips1, what's up with ti now?
[05:50] <cbx33> I'll give it a crack
[05:50] <stelis> I can be around Sunday evening
[05:51] <pips1> cbx33, I have a rather complex setup with four networks... as stelis properly observed
[05:51] <pips1> stelis Internet/ISP
[05:51] <pips1> stelis The shared network between router and firewall,
[05:51] <pips1> stelis The main private network
[05:51] <pips1> stelis And the dedicated Edubuntu network
[05:51] <stelis> I'm trying to convince him to slim down a littel :)
[05:51] <cbx33> crikey
[05:51] <cbx33> slim down dude
[05:51] <pips1> heh
[05:52] <cbx33> and what is not working?
[05:52] <cbx33> DHCP?
[05:52] <stelis> Thinking about it, we have a similar arrangement at work
[05:52] <cbx33> stelis, me too
[05:52] <cbx33> just don;t tell pips1
[05:52] <pips1> the firewall is using the same ip range that edubuntu ltsp needs...
[05:52] <cbx33> right
[05:52] <cbx33> pips1, .... to aid in helping
[05:52] <pips1> read: *the firewall's dhcp
[05:53] <cbx33> do you have a diagram
[05:53] <pips1> nope
[05:53] <cbx33> I may have to pop out in a while.....but if you mail me a diagram...that could help...
[05:53] <cbx33> just a quick one of ip ranges and dhcp/firewall/server locations
[05:53] <cbx33> it's hard to visualise a network layout
[05:53] <cbx33> well...I confess I find it hard to
[05:53] <cbx33> and I'm a network manager
[05:53] <cbx33> :0
[05:53] <pips1> ha, yep
[05:54] <pips1> I've never done a network diagram before, but I could try, i guess
[05:54] <cbx33> just a simple one
[05:55] <cbx33> it'll help you out I gaurantee it
[05:55] <cbx33> I know exactly what my network is llike now
[05:55] <cbx33> cos i memorised the drawing
[05:56] <jsgotangco> you've never done a network diagram before?
[05:56] <jsgotangco> heh
[05:56] <jsgotangco> dang
[05:56] <pips1> heh
[05:56] <cbx33> then I chagned the whoole infrastructure
[05:56] <cbx33> :p
[05:57] <pips1> yeah, it's probably better to start scribbling it on paper and scanning that in
[05:57] <pips1> and once everything is clear, you can always make an nice one
[05:58] <stelis> Just writing an inventory of what you have is a good place to start
[05:58] <stelis> i.e. devices and network ranges
[05:58] <pips1> even better start, you're right
[05:58] <pips1> in a plain text file
[05:58] <stelis> cbx33: WRT to the SCP, perhaps post an email with your thoughts to one of the lists? I'll try to reply, and maybe some other people will chip in thoughts as well.
[05:59] <pips1> good suggestion
[05:59] <stelis> The place that I worked had a classroom thin client network
[05:59] <stelis> The product is dead
[06:00] <stelis> But I may be able to find some docs and things
[06:00] <pips1> even if you might get lots of "this would be nice" that don't really relate to actual real *needs*. but you might get some input from people who have experience with commercial apps
[06:00] <stelis> Which could be mined for ideas
[06:01] <cbx33> yeh
[06:01] <cbx33> true
[06:01] <cbx33> pips1, yeh just a simple sketch like those...hackers challenge books have ;)
[06:01] <cbx33> heheh
[06:01] <cbx33> right I'm off for a while
[06:01] <cbx33> bbl
[06:01] <pips1> cu
[06:02] <stelis> Cheers
[06:06] <pips1> stelis, have you used the collaborative real time text editor 'gobby' before?
[06:06] <pips1> I'm dying to try it out
[06:07] <pips1> my network problem would be an interesting use case to try it :-)
[07:14] <cbx33> hey LaserJock
[07:15] <LaserJock> hi cbx33
[07:16] <cbx33> how are you
[07:16] <LaserJock> I'm going to die :-)
[07:16] <cbx33> oh
[07:17] <LaserJock> phew, I just found somebody to do some chemistry demonstrations
[07:17] <LaserJock> we are having a Chemistry Department open house today
[07:17] <LaserJock> and I'm in charge of organizing some chemistry demos
[07:17] <cbx33> coool
[07:17] <LaserJock> but it turns out *I* have to be presenting a poster and giving tours of my lab
[07:17] <cbx33> so why are you goin to die
[07:17] <cbx33> planning to drink some H2SO4
[07:18] <cbx33> ?
[07:18] <LaserJock> so I need to find some people to actually do the demos
[07:18] <LaserJock> no
[07:18] <cbx33> heheh cool.......you'll love that
[07:18] <LaserJock> we thought about blowing up some H2 and O2 :-)
[07:18] <cbx33> nice idea
[07:18] <cbx33> ooh oooh ooh
[07:18] <cbx33> do sonoluninescence
[07:18] <cbx33> sonoluminescence
[07:18] <cbx33> sorry spelt it wrong first time round
[07:18] <LaserJock> well, I've got a 2 hr meeting in 15 min
[07:18] <cbx33> go on dude
[07:19] <cbx33> do sonoluminescence
[07:19] <cbx33> it's well cool
[07:19] <LaserJock> which gives me 2 hrs after that to get the demos set up, and a poster printed out and the lab cleaned up
[07:19] <cbx33> so it'#s today?
[07:19] <LaserJock> yes
[07:19] <LaserJock> :-)
[07:19] <cbx33> oh...yeh youre' gonna die :p
[07:20] <cbx33> ack...i gotta dash...getting ready for my brother-in-laws LAN party tomorrow
[07:20] <cbx33> heheh
[07:20] <cbx33> #see ya later
[07:20] <LaserJock> oh yeah
[07:20] <LaserJock> I have a LInux install fest tomorrow :(
[07:20] <cbx33> hehe
[07:20] <cbx33> later dude, hope it goes well
[07:20] <LaserJock> I need to burn some Edgy RC cds
[07:20] <LaserJock> cya
[08:01] <tideline> I have a strange question regarding the handbook, I checked a copy out, but I would like to know how I can test it locally?
[08:02] <tideline> oh, Hi all
[09:05] <cbx33> evenin all
[09:05] <juliux> hi cbx33
[09:05] <cbx33> hey juliux
[09:05] <juliux> cbx33, how are you?
[09:06] <cbx33> yeh I'm good
[09:06] <cbx33> how are you
[09:08] <tideline> hi all, I asked a question earlier, but no one answered it, please forgive the repost
[09:09] <tideline> how would I test the handbook locally?
[09:09] <cbx33> hmm....
[09:09] <cbx33> normally rhere is a script to run it
[09:09] <tideline> or is there a way to test it locally
[09:09] <cbx33> you can test individual pages
[09:09] <cbx33> by running yelp page_name
[09:10] <tideline> cbx33, ok tried that - Thanks
[09:11] <cbx33> did it work
[09:12] <tideline> well it would have if I didn't screw up the xml
[09:12] <tideline> yup its working now
[09:12] <cbx33> heheh
[09:12] <tideline> is the TODO list on the wiki up to date?
[09:14] <tideline> I guess technically it's called the taks list
[09:17] <highvoltage> cbx33: do you have a very up-to-date edubuntu? if so, can you please try running gcompris?
[09:17] <cbx33> I don't here
[09:17] <cbx33> hm....oh
[09:17] <highvoltage> ok. anyone else here running Edgy?
[09:17] <cbx33> wait I have a fairly up to date
[09:17] <tideline> I am
[09:17] <cbx33> you want a todays uptodate?
[09:17] <highvoltage> cbx33: anything after 17 Oct
[09:18] <cbx33> tideline, are you able to test?
[09:18] <highvoltage> tideline: can you please check if you can run gcompris?
[09:18] <cbx33> I can get that ./..
[09:18] <cbx33> I have a 14 I think
[09:18] <cbx33> I can upgrade
[09:18] <highvoltage> ok cool :)
[09:18] <pygi> highvoltage: I can try
[09:18] <tideline> I am running it in a parallels machine, havent tried it in there
[09:18] <highvoltage> gcompris is broken on the 17/10 build. it just auto-logs you out of gnome when you run it :(
[09:18] <highvoltage> pygi: that would be great
[09:19] <cbx33> highvoltage, shout if you need it
[09:19] <cbx33> I'll not update till you say so
[09:19] <cbx33> seeing as it'll prbaoly be arnoud 200Mb update
[09:20] <highvoltage> cbx33: ok, I will
[09:20] <pygi> highvoltage: all working fine
[09:20] <pygi> I don't have todays newest update tho, so I'm doing it now
[09:21] <highvoltage> pygi: when did you last update? after 17/10?
[09:21] <pygi> highvoltage: yup
[09:21] <highvoltage> ok cool.
[09:22] <pygi> highvoltage: k, let us see the error :)
[09:23] <highvoltage> hmmm.. it just complains about en_ZA.UTF-8 locales, then it gives a warning about gnome.canvas being deprecated
[09:23] <highvoltage> I'll include it in my testing report
[09:25] <highvoltage> tideline: is yours working fine?
[09:25] <tideline> highvoltage, this is a new install havent installed gcomoris yet
[09:25] <highvoltage> tideline: ok, if you do install gcompris, please let me know if it works
[09:26] <tideline> highvoltage, is there a gooc how to? I can do it right now - Im just at work
[09:26] <pygi> tideline: sudo apt-get install gcompris? :)
[09:27] <highvoltage> tideline: ok, no worries, I thought you were in a position to test now
[09:27] <tideline> highvoltage, I have a new install with an update
[09:28] <tideline> pygi, I thought there might be a little more to it than that
[09:34] <Dheeraj_ku> Does any body know any good java (j2ee) support irc channel?
[09:35] <pygi> Dheeraj_ku: #java !
[09:35] <Dheeraj_ku> i tried but it is giving this msg
[09:35] <Dheeraj_ku>  #java ##java :Forwarding to another channel
[09:35] <Dheeraj_ku> * ##java :You need to be identified to join that channel
[09:36] <pygi> well, identify yourself ;)
[09:36] <stgraber> then register on freenode, and join when identified
[09:36] <Dheeraj_ku>  need to be identified? wat does it really mean?
[09:36] <pygi> Dheeraj_ku: register on freenode ,then identify
[09:36] <stgraber>  /msg nickserv help register
[09:37] <pygi> Dheeraj_ku: this is not a java neither nick registration help channel btw :P
[09:38] <Dheeraj_ku> u know if i will ask the same question on # nick registration they may give same reply. this is not a java channel :D
[09:40] <pygi> I dont understand you :p
[09:41] <Dheeraj_ku> I am already registered on free node with id Dheeraj_k but i forget how to log in :)
[09:41] <cbx33>  /msg nickserv identify
[09:41] <cbx33> the ya pass
[09:41] <cbx33>  /msg nickserv identify pss
[09:41] <Dheeraj_ku> # nick registration  = # nickRegistration  channel.lol
[09:42] <Dheeraj_ku> thanx :)
[09:47] <pygi> highvoltage: if you want, I can reboot with newest update?
[09:54] <tideline> highvoltage, I installed gcompris, when I run it I get logged out - pretty much the same as you
[10:06] <pygi> highvoltage: ping  ? :)
[10:07] <highvoltage> pygi: pong
[10:07] <pygi> highvoltage: in case you havent seen :P
 highvoltage: if you want, I can reboot with newest update?
 highvoltage, I installed gcompris, when I run it I get logged out - pretty much the same as you
[10:07] <highvoltage> eesh
[10:08] <highvoltage> pygi: in that case, I'd appreciate it very much if you could reboot and test
[10:08] <pygi> highvoltage: oki, brb in sec
[10:09] <tideline> highvoltage, is there a paste bin somewhere?  I will paste the error I get in messages
[10:09] <highvoltage> !paste
[10:09] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (you can always find it in the channel topic, among other useful things)
[10:11] <pygi> highvoltage: confirming all works marvelous
[10:11] <tideline> highvoltage, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27544
[10:12] <highvoltage> tideline: and when did you say you last updated?
[10:12] <tideline> highvoltage, I got the image this am and updated about 30 min ago
[10:13] <highvoltage> tideline: ok
[10:13] <highvoltage> pygi: and you?
[10:13] <pygi> highvoltage: right now? :P
[10:14] <highvoltage> ok, seems like it was a bug that's recently been fixed. I'll re-check tomorrow morning after an rsync.
[10:14] <highvoltage> thanks pygi and tideline!
[10:14] <tideline> k
[10:14] <pygi> highvoltage: I don't think so =) I haven't seen such problem :P
[10:15] <pygi> and I was updating & testing every day :P
[10:15] <tideline> my problem may come from running inside parallels
[10:16] <highvoltage> pygi: ok. strange that tideline is getting it too then :/
[10:16] <highvoltage> tideline: aah, ok. so perhaps our problems are completely unrelated then.
[10:16] <tideline> I can test on another computer when I get home
[10:25] <tideline> is the handbook working out of the C or the orig or the working dir?
[10:28] <lucasvo> http://wservices.ch/~lucas/ablage/tux_case_01.jpg &  http://wservices.ch/~lucas/ablage/tux_case_02.jpg :)
[10:28] <lucasvo> my brother just did this for me :)
[10:35] <stgraber> Woo, that's really good looking :)
[10:49] <highvoltage> cool :)
[10:49] <highvoltage> ah yes, he's a londonner too, isn't he?
[10:49] <cbx33> hehe...he needed a soldering iron
[10:50] <highvoltage> goodnight #edubuntu!
[10:50] <cbx33> good night highvoltage
[10:50] <pygi> night highvoltage
[10:51] <juliux> good night highvoltage
[10:51] <tideline> night
[10:51] <highvoltage> night cbx33 and pygi and juliux and tideline!
[11:01] <cbx33> ogra, I should have my key signed soon
[11:39] <whiprush> hey you guys check this out? http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=280193
[11:40] <whiprush> of course you have. :D
[11:42] <pygi> :P
[11:48] <nixternal> i better not hear anyone laugh at the "Fawn" name anymore...it is ingenious
[11:48] <nixternal> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27566/
[11:48] <nixternal> that backs it up right there ;)
[12:07] <vectra> I don't see a GUI tool to configure GDM. How do I set an automatic login for the 8 year old?
[12:08] <Burgwork> vectra: it is there
[12:08] <Burgwork> system>admin>login screen
[12:09] <vectra> yup, I'm just blind today :-p


[02:41]  * ruttle waves
[07:33] <johndave> hello
[14:26] <n-iCe> hello
[15:21] <n-iCe> hiii
[15:22] <n-iCe> !hello
[15:22] <n-iCe> @hello
[21:38] <New_to_Linux> Testing, testing. Is anyone there?
[21:39] <New_to_Linux> Hello
[21:42] <wxl> New_to_Linux: the rule with irc, is just ask away :)
[21:42] <wxl> believe it or not, support channels usually don't get much chat
[21:44] <New_to_Linux> Oh okay. I want to know if the Lubuntu torrent is free and legal. I'm new to torrents and I don't want to get into trouble
[21:45] <wxl> New_to_Linux: yep. the foss community uses legal torrents a lot.
[21:45] <wxl> New_to_Linux: since the software is free and open source, it's licensed in such a way that allows any sort of distribution.
[21:46] <New_to_Linux> Now is it a virtual machine box like VMWare? Okay that sounds good. I also don't know which one to download
[21:47] <teward> New_to_Linux: Desktop amd64 if you're doing it in a VM
[21:47] <teward> and yes, VMware is fine to run it in, I do that for ISO tests
[21:48] <teward> (during the dev cycle)
[21:48] <teward> *looks at wxl* And wxl knows this, too >:)
[21:49] <New_to_Linux> I'm on a PC laptop, pretty old. It will be ten years old next year
[21:49] <wxl> well, amd64 is a safe assumption for new hardware
[21:50] <wxl> anyways, the torrents and isos in general are NOT vms
[21:50] <wxl> however, they are images that can be installed in a vm
[21:50] <wxl> personally, i'd suggest grabbing i386 desktop if i were you
[21:50] <wxl> and grab alternate if you're particularly low on resources and/or avoid guis :)
[21:51] <guest8574> Does anyone know what would cause poor GTK performance?
[21:51] <wxl> guest8574: if you want a specific answer, you may consider being more specific, and in particular, quantifying things.
[21:52] <New_to_Linux> What's the alternative for a laptop? I want to download indie games without the risk of getting viruses. I have anti-virus software but outdated. I'm quite broke so I'm using what I have
[21:52] <guest8574> I just tried booting a live CD of Lubuntu on an old laptop, and the drawing of GTK widgets is really slow.
[21:52] <New_to_Linux> I'm doing this for freelance writing to make money as well. That's why I want the Lubuntu.
[21:52] <guest8574> I can open up some config dialog, and see a blank window for half a second before it gets filled by widgets.
[21:54] <guest8574> And the widgets are slow to redraw when I drag a window over them. In Windows XP, every single drawing event is instantaneous. You don't see all these ugly artifacts.
[21:54] <wxl> New_to_Linux: you should have no problem downloading games in linux without getting viruses.
[21:54] <wxl> guest8574: this is on the same machine?
[21:55] <guest8574> Yes. XP and Lubuntu on an EeePC 1000HD.
[21:55] <wxl> guest8574: if you don't have much memory, that may be the problem. live loads the whole OS in memory.
[21:55] <wxl> guest8574: try loading windows live if you want a good comparison >:)
[21:56] <New_to_Linux> So Lubuntu doesn't have a virtual machine like VMware. right?
[21:56] <Kamilion> several
[21:56] <wxl> New_to_Linux: lubuntu can be a guest or host for virtual amchines.
[21:56] <guest8574> New_to_Linux: VMware works on Lubuntu.
[21:57] <Kamilion> kvm, xen, virtualbox, vmware workstation, vmware player.
[21:57] <guest8574> As well as VirtualBox, Qemu, DOSBox.
[21:57] <Kamilion> if you wanna play with xen or kvm, they're preinstalled on my lubuntu remix for virtualization here: https://github.com/kamilion/kamikazi-deploy
[21:58] <wxl> +1 for kvm
[22:01] <Kamilion> guest8574: likely the laptop is not running with accelerated graphics. Everything must be rendered by the CPU pixel by pixel in that case.
[22:02] <Kamilion> I have the same problem on big servers with old ATI video chips.
[22:02] <Kamilion> but it's also pretty common for the older intel integrated video units like the i810
[22:03] <guest8574> Kamilion: I do have hardware acceleration.
[22:03] <guest8574> glxinfo | grep rendering
[22:03] <guest8574> direct rendering: Yes
[22:03] <Kamilion> we all do. MESA does software rendering of GL and has for ~15+ years
[22:03] <guest8574> And glxgears runs at 60 FPS.
[22:03] <Kamilion> Huh.
[22:03] <Kamilion> And it's only GTK?
[22:04] <Kamilion> which video adapter is X detecting?
[22:04] <Kamilion> also, just because you can blit some polygons at a screen doesn't mean anything
[22:04] <wxl> i remind us this is again in live
[22:04] <Kamilion> glxgears gives me 1458 FPS for a $30 geforce 610
[22:05] <Kamilion> even my cruddy old laptop did glxgears at ~400ish
[22:05] <Kamilion> so if you're only seeing 60, something is amiss.
[22:06] <guest8574> My monitor's refresh rate is 60 Hz, so that's maybe why.
[22:06] <Kamilion> no, that just limits the frames you can actually see -- a GPU can render far faster than 60hz for simple geometry
[22:07] <Kamilion> it's when you start getting into texture and lighting and shaders and full screen antialiasing that the performance comes down to what the monitor can display.
[22:08] <guest8574> It even says so. http://pastebin.com/PtD7aCJz
[22:09] <Kamilion> guest8574: http://puu.sh/ihy14/07a1a1ad3b.jpg
[22:10] <Kamilion> this is a VM with no GPU passthrough and it's still getting ~700FPS.
[22:11] <guest8574> When I run glxgears, it says that it synchronizes to the refresh rate. I don't know how to do otherwise.
[22:12] <Kamilion> http://puu.sh/ihy9l/27f225b324.jpg
[22:12] <Kamilion> you can see here by my opengl renderer that it's software rendering.
[22:13] <Kamilion> i assume you're stuck with VSYNC because you're using a 2D only video adapter.
[22:13] <Kamilion> what's this say: glxinfo | grep "OpenGL "
[22:14] <Kamilion> (don't forget the space at the end of OpenGL )
[22:22] <Kamilion> huh, i can't seem to get that output no matter where i try, guest8574
[22:23] <Kamilion> tried six PCs and so far no instances of "Running synchronized to the vertical refresh.  The framerate should be approximately the same as the monitor refresh rate." message is appearing