[00:38] <Riddell> davidm: ok to release images for RC?
[00:38] <ogra_ac> Riddell, what does the isotracker say (and better ask GrueMaster, he is testing atm)
[00:39] <ogra_ac> Riddell, theoretically they should all be fine
[00:41] <Riddell> ogra_ac: if I read it right it says there's a couple of serious bugs and no failures
[00:42] <ogra_ac> Riddell, great
[00:44] <ogra_ac> so we are not jobless after RC :)
[00:47] <ogra_ac> Riddell, looking at the treacker they seem to all be known bugs ... fine to release
[00:48] <ogra_ac> Riddell, netbook preinstalled for armel omap and omap4 ... netbook live for armel dove are the images we release
[00:49] <ogra_ac> ... and with that statement i'm off to bed
[01:37] <jjardon> Hello, is there any possiblity to ship pygobject 2.26 in maverick? They are the only supported python bindings upstream
[01:37] <jjardon> Also, PyGTK apps are recommended to switch to PyGObject ASAP
[01:38] <persia> You mentioned this before.  You might want to file a bug.  IRC is notoriously bad at maintaining state.
[01:38] <persia> At this point, it would require significant coordination push, and be considered release-critical by a number of people.
[01:39] <persia> It's most especially concerning because it is known that all the apps that use the PyGTK and PyGObject implementations currently in maverick work (at least to the extent each application has been tested).
[01:40] <persia> It is most certainly unknown whether they would work with the latest PyGObject (And many likely remain to be ported)
[01:59] <poolie> hi, will someone please sponsor maxb's upload from https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/636930
[02:03] <ScottK> poolie: Are you asking for a 2.2.1 upload or just a fix for this?
[02:03] <ScottK> (I think I see both in the bug)
[02:05] <poolie> ScottK: the whole bugfix update
[02:06] <poolie> ie all of 2.2.1
[02:06] <poolie> ScottK: we have a microreleaseupdate exception
[02:08] <persia> poolie, That's only a guarantee that the upstream can be processed, not that a given packaging of it happens to be suitable for sponsoring (not meaning anything either positive or negative towards this specific packaging)
[02:10] <maxb> I can't
[02:10] <maxb> oops, I just responded ot something hours ago in scrollback
[02:15] <poolie> persia, scottk, ok so what can we actually do with this specific package?
[02:17] <maxb> First things first, we need an official ubuntu-release verdict on whether to go release pocket or SRU
[02:17] <maxb> As informal IRC opinions have been inconclusive
[02:18] <persia> poolie, Wait for someone who can upload it (not me) to review and either upload or comment on why they aren't uploading.  It's exceedingly unlikely to be sponsored pre-RC release, and even if it is so sponsored, isn't going to be accepted by the Release Team until post-RC.
[02:19] <poolie> how could we get in touch with such a person?
[02:19] <poolie> historically just subscribing the team to the bug and commenting has not got much of a response
[02:19] <persia> maxb, If you're seeking that, then yes, you want to have had a different request.
[02:19] <maxb> Exactly - thus, the first thing being getting the release team's verdict on whether they want this in release or proposed pocket
[02:20] <persia> poolie, It's supposed to work that way.  When it doesn't, you can ask here or in #ubuntu-release.
[02:26] <poolie> ScottK: i see you're in ~ubuntu-release, what do you think?
[02:35] <poolie> running the tests now
[03:34] <ScottK> poolie: My view is that successfully completing the tests that would be mandated for an SRU is a precondition.  If it can do that (and from the bug, I have the impression that you aren't quite there yet), then I would tend to be in favor, but I'd want to discuss it with pitti, since he seemed to lean against.  If there's a focused patch for that particular issue, I'd recommend uploading that while it's decided.
[03:44] <ScottK> poolie: It would also be useful to know if bzr is in fact on an ISO or just in Main for other reasons.  I don't know and I'm too tired to look it up at the moment.
[03:53] <james_w> I'm pretty sure it's just in main
[03:54] <ScottK> That would make it less scary from my POV since it gives us almost another week to deal with regressions.
[03:54] <persia> If fails to show in any of the manifest files I mirror (which is an incomplete set, but wide).
[03:55] <ScottK> Of course if I sponsor it, then I can't accept it and the final decision becomes "not my problem".  That has a certain appeal too.
[03:56] <persia> heh
[04:06] <sladen> ScottK++
[04:48] <poolie> ScottK: i ran the tests and posted the outcome; not sure if you saw that yet
[04:50] <poolie> oh i see
[04:50] <poolie> ok, i'll work out what's up with that ssl error
[05:27] <poolie> james_w: your bug 646979 logic seems plausible to me on a brief read through
[05:27] <james_w> good
[05:30] <poolie> i stress only brief for the moment
[05:30] <james_w> yeah, I'm not going to take snap action after thinking about it for this long :-)
[07:39] <dholbach> good morning
[08:17] <jibel> didrocks, could you have a look at bug 651325. it was during a test upgrade from a fresh wubi 10.04.1 to 10.10
[08:17] <didrocks> jibel: oh, let me check, I have an idea why we can have that :)
[08:18] <didrocks> jibel: yeah, dpkg doesn't have dpkg-maintscript-helper in list, I get trapped :)
[08:19] <didrocks> jibel: I'll fix that then, thanks for the info :)
[08:20] <jibel> didrocks, thank you
[08:20] <mvo> didrocks: I have a fix ready, its just a missing pre-depends on dpkg
[08:21] <didrocks> mvo: oh good, thanks :)
[08:21] <mvo> didrocks: commited, I can upload if nothing else is pedning
[08:22] <didrocks> mvo: anything else as far as I know of, please do :)
[08:23] <didrocks> (that's maybe something to list until next LTS, if we use dpkg-maintscript-helper, for handling upgrade from lucid, we need the pre-depends on dpkg)
[08:23] <didrocks> not sure where to list that however
[08:23] <persia> debian/README.source might be a handy innocuous place for that sort of thing.
[08:24] <didrocks> persia: for dpkg? do you think people using dpkg-maintscript-helper will look at dpkg README file? :)
[08:25] <persia> didrocks, I was thinking for that which needs it.  If you want something more general, then it probably belongs in the dpkg-maintscript-helper manpage.
[08:25] <didrocks> yeah, that was my guess, I'll patch it for natty
[08:27] <YokoZar> Can someone reject my (pitti-sponsored) icoutils upload, I need to make a new one (the license has changed and debian/copyright needs to be fixed)
[08:28] <StevenK> YokoZar: To maverick?
[08:28] <YokoZar> StevenK: Yeah
[08:29] <StevenK> YokoZar: 0.29.1-0ubuntu1 ?
[08:30] <YokoZar> StevenK: yup
[08:30] <StevenK> YokoZar: Right, cool. Rejected.
[08:32] <twb> Does Ubuntu have something like cdn.debian.net, which resolves to a "nearby" mirror?
[08:33] <twb> I realize ubuntu's d-i has some cleverness to pick a nearby mirror at install time, but a one-shot detection is suboptimal for roaming laptops.
[08:41] <persia> twb, I don't believe so.  There's some mirror stuff in python-apt, and I think update-manager can use it (but I don't believe it does more than verify the sources.list only contains mirrors in the list)
[08:42] <twb> I guess the other way to do it is to just get everyone onto ipv6 and use anycast :-P
[08:42] <persia> Heh, indeed.
[08:42] <pitti> Good morning
[08:43] <pitti> yofel: will do, thanks for the MP
[08:43] <pitti> ScottK: I guess bzr is at least on the DVDs
[08:45] <twb> Actually, while we're discussing it, what is the *CLI* equivalent of apt-spy in Ubuntu?
[08:45] <twb> I see synaptic can do it, but that's no use on a server.
[08:45] <twb> (That is, go get the mirror list from ubuntu.com, count the hops to each one, then return the mirror with the fewest hops.)
[08:46] <persia> twb, I'm not sure we have one: there's a local mirror list from python-apt which would be a sensible place to start.
[08:46] <twb> okey dokey
[08:47] <twb> For my own means I usually know out-of-band, but it comes up on #ubuntu-server occasionally
[08:47] <persia> Probably easy enough to toss one together.
[08:47] <mvo> twb: there is a "mirror" protocol in apt
[08:48] <mvo> twb: you can use "deb mirror://mirrors.ubuntu.com/mirrors.txt maverick main universe"
[08:48] <twb> Oh neat
[08:48] <persia> Oh, cool!
[08:48] <mvo> its not perfect yet, that is why we have no done it by default (yet)
[08:48] <mvo> but it should work pretty well 99% of the time
[08:49] <twb> There was also that guy working on a bittorrent apt method, but I don't think he got it production-ready
[08:50] <mvo> twb: yeah, apt-transport-debtorrent - we have it in the archive
[08:50] <twb> Do you happen to know what the Debian equivalent of mirrors.ubuntu.com/mirrors.txt is?  README.mirrors.txt has a different format
[08:54] <mvo> twb: where is README.mirrors.txt located?
[08:55] <twb> http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/README.mirrors.txt
[08:55] <poolie> hi pitti,
[08:55] <twb> I *think* that's the file apt-spy uses
[08:55] <pitti> hey poolie
[08:55] <poolie> given our test results that there are no new test failures from the installed bzr, in bug 636930
[08:55] <poolie> what's next?
[08:56] <twb> method/mirror.cc doesn't offer much explanation, except it implies that mirrors.txt would need to be dynamically generated by the server (based on geo-ip or such) to be useful
[08:56] <mvo> twb: aha, thanks. the mirror method in apt depends on a server that uses geoip so it will not be able to use this file
[08:57] <persia> The fastest server is often not the nearest one geographically, depending on network topology.
[08:57] <twb> persia: I was impressed that it even listed my ISP's tertiary mirror, though
[08:57] <twb> It wasn't the first one in the list, though
[08:59] <twb> I get http://paste.debian.net/92510/ from within the internode network, but I am originating from a portable IP so it probably doesn't get very well.
[08:59] <twb> s/get/guess/
[08:59] <twb> Hmm, same result when coming from an ISP-assigned IP.
[09:05] <poolie> pitti: ?
[09:07] <mvo> twb: yes, it relies on the server, the long term goal is to provide stats (opt-in of course) so that the server can build a optimal list for most people
[09:10] <mvo> tkamppeter_: hi, around? is foomatic-db-compressed-ppds a drop-in replacement for foomatic-db or are there apps that breaks if foomatic-db-compressed-ppds are installed instead of foomatic-db ?
[09:12] <pitti> poolie: as I said, it can be uploaded to maverick-proposed
[09:23] <poolie> maxb: so i think now you should ask someone to sponsor your upload to maverick-
[09:23] <poolie> proposed?
[09:24] <persia> Common procedure is to prepare a candidate upload with maverick-proposed in the changelog, and either propose a merge in LP or file a bug and subscribe the sponsors team with a debdiff.
[09:27] <maxb> poolie: well, hmm. only if the decision has been finally taken to handle this as a SRU, not a late-breaking release pocket upload
[09:27] <maxb> I am tempted to just arbitrarily decide it's a SRU, given that's what we were intending to do at first, before the idea of a late-breaking release pocket upload was ever mentioned
[09:31] <poolie> maxb, i don't know if that's optimal but it's pretty good
[09:31] <poolie> i suspect everybody running this will get -updates
[09:32] <poolie> and it'd be nice to just get it resolved and do other things
[09:41] <mvo> tkamppeter_: if you have time I would like to talk about #647460, what we can do about it
[09:48] <persia> maxb, The statement at :12 by a member of ~ubuntu-release seemed fairly definitive that it ought be considered for SRU.  Feel free to copy & paste to a bug comment if you want it tracked there.
[09:53] <maxb> persia: yes, I think we shall aim for SRU. The confusion has been that we've had different thoughts on the matter from pitti and ScottK
[09:55] <pitti> a week ago we weren't frozen for RC yet, so back then my suggestion was to just upload it if it was ready
[09:55] <persia> maxb, The key is to take the first answer you get from any member of the release team, make sure it's documented somewhere, and run with it.  If you wait for RT consensus, you'll end up in next cycle :)
[09:56] <persia> (and all the members of the release team tend to tell you to ask someone else if they aren't prepared to take a decision)
[10:04] <poolie> yeah, or take the answer you like best :)
[10:04] <pitti> it didn't really differ, though
[10:05] <pitti> it makes a difference whether you ask before or after a freeze :)
[10:08] <persia> poolie, Please don't do that.  The first answer should be correct (there was a long discussion about one answer vs. two answers in agreement in the past with the conclusion that one was the right way to proceed)
[10:15] <mvo> cjwatson: I think I found the bug in the livefs script (just fyi so that we don't duplicate work)
[10:17] <doko> I'd like to understand why https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lash/0.6.0~rc2-1 ended up in maverick. there's no sync request about it
[10:21] <persia> I thought I requested that.
[10:35] <doko> persia: being aware of the armel and powerpc build failures in experimental? :-/
[10:38] <persia> From experimental?  I didn't request that.
[10:38] <persia> (and I can't find the bug either :/ )
[10:38] <doko> there is none ...
[10:40] <persia> There was one.  NCommander, I, ogra, and seb128 all touched it, and Riddell closed it, unless I'm thinking of a different lash
[10:40] <persia> But that was for a sync from *unstable*
[10:41] <seb128> I don't even know what that source is I doubt I touched it
[10:42]  * ogra neither
[10:42] <persia> seb128, There was an associated issue with d-shlibs and you told NCommander to fix it with hinting, rather than a hardcoded patch.
[10:42] <ogra> oh, that one
[10:43] <persia> Right.  I requested the sync of <IP_ADDRESS>-2 (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/lash/<IP_ADDRESS>-2 )
[10:43] <persia> doko, Sorry for the confusion.
[10:44] <doko> persia, and we ended up with 0.6rc2?
[10:44] <persia> I don't know how that happened.  <IP_ADDRESS>-2 was FTBFS on armel because of some other stuff related to d-shlibs, but 0.6rc2 is broken for much more annoying reasons.
[10:45] <seb128> doko, ask quadrispro
[10:45] <seb128> he did the upload it seems
[10:46] <seb128> he apprently synced it manually himself
[10:46] <Laney> looks like a syncpackage upload
[10:46] <doko> seb128: it's a sync ...
[10:46] <seb128> doko, it's a fake sync
[10:46] <seb128> ie one done manually
[10:47] <Laney> override distro in changesfile, sign, upload
[10:47] <seb128> otherwise it would be an Ubuntu Installer upload
[10:47] <doko> seb128: yes, from experimental, so there should be a bug report?
[10:47] <Laney> that's not enforced
[10:47] <Laney> any developer can just upload as normal
[10:47] <seb128> doko, no, it's an upload by somebody with upload rights
[10:47] <doko> ahh, that could be. but quadrispro is the debian maintainer too, and uploading something which is broken on three archs is ... unfriendly
[10:48] <seb128> doko, talk to him I guess, I don't know why he uploaded
[10:48] <persia> It's rather unfortunate, really.  Lots uses lash.
[10:49] <doko> anyway, fixed
[10:49] <ogra> i asked him to apply the same patch to d-shlibs we used in all former releases
[10:50] <ogra> which back then fixed <IP_ADDRESS>-2
[10:58] <doko> seb128: still wondering why a fake sync is required for an .orig.tar.gz not yet in ubuntu
[10:58] <Laney> doko: People do it because it means your upload happens immediately rather than waiting for an archive admin
[11:01] <doko> Laney: fine, imnsho this maybe should be restricted
[11:01] <seb128> doko, it's not required, it's somebody who decided to not wait on archive admins and file a proper sync request and did it manually itself
[11:01] <seb128> doko, there is no way to restrict that, it's like restricting upload to somebody having upload rights
[11:02] <doko> seb128: policy?
[11:02] <seb128> he could as well have taken the debian version changed the number to 0ubuntu1 or 1~ubuntu and uploaded
[11:02] <Laney> I've tried to convince individuals that it's usually not required.
[11:02] <Laney> having said that though, I have used such scripts myself
[11:02] <Laney> for example when running a transition with long dep chains
[11:02] <seb128> doko, the last time that was discussed on the list nobody objected strongly to people doing their sync themself
[11:02] <persia> Laney, Most archive-admins will happily run a sequence of lists for those over a few hours, if given a prepared list.
[11:03] <seb128> ideally we would not need archive admin to do syncs
[11:03] <seb128> whoever has upload right should be able to sync
[11:03] <pitti> I do that all the time; I fix somethign, and then upload to Debian and Ubuntu at the same time
[11:03] <seb128> there is no reason to review syncs over uploads
[11:03] <persia> We all agree that developers should be able to do syncs, but we should be doing them *IN LP*, not with hacked .changes files.
[11:03] <ajmitch> seb128: that requires a bit more work on soyuz though
[11:03] <seb128> right
[11:03] <pitti> persia: what do you think sync-source.py does? :-)
[11:03] <seb128> but that would not have solved the issue doko has there
[11:03] <persia> ajmitch, Not that much: mostly currently blocked on running the changelog import job.
[11:03] <doko> seb128, Laney: yes, but please not from experimental, and not, if you know as debian maintainer, that the package builds on everything non ix86
[11:03] <ajmitch> pitti: I've seen the code, it's evil :)
[11:04] <pitti> at some point we'll have native source syncing, like copy-packages.py
[11:04] <seb128> doko, you have an issue with the maintainer decision there not with the policy or workflow
[11:04] <persia> pitti, I know precisely what it does: I've used it.  The key bit is that we track it nicely when we use the AA-based process.
[11:04] <Laney> doko: Really it's just an instance of general care when uploading. In this case the fact that it's an emulated sync is immaterial
[11:04] <pitti> when we have a complete and current Debian import
[11:04] <pitti> persia: oh, you are an archive admin now?
[11:04] <seb128> doko, we would have synced it the same way if it was an official sync request
[11:04] <pitti> persia: (sync-source.py is the launchpad script)
[11:05] <persia> pitti, No, but I used your script back in the hardy-release-rush because you gave it to me to run out-of-archive because you didn't have time for my syncs :)
[11:05] <doko> seb128: without looking for build failures first? sorry that a thing at least I do check
[11:05] <seb128> doko, we can check debian builds etc for the hundred of sync request every week, we just trust the maintainer who do requests
[11:05] <persia> Oh, I'm thinking of something different then.
[11:05] <pitti> persia: ah, that's something else; but in essence it does teh same as the launchpad script: craft a .changes for an existing .dsc
[11:05] <seb128> doko, it's the job of whoever has upload rights and been asking for the sync or acking it
[11:05] <persia> Right.  There's a better way to do it mostly ready on LP, but pending some job execution time.
[11:06] <seb128> doko, and not archive admin doesn't have the time to do the submitter work and check everything for hundred of syncs
[11:06] <persia> Maybe sometime during natty, if we're lucky.
[11:06] <Laney> persia: Yes, indeed I could have, and have done in the past for haskell transitions. In this instance I had quite limited slots to work on the rebuilds so didn't want to block on anyone else, but I take your point.
[11:06] <pitti> FTR, archive admins can't check Debian FTBFS when doing sync processing either
[11:06] <doko> no, but it should be policy for the uploader
[11:06] <persia> And they oughtn't be expected to.  archive-admins ought perform the syncs nearly blindly, if it has the right ACK.
[11:06] <Laney> you have to assume that the uploader knows what they are doing
[11:06] <pitti> doko: I agree
[11:06] <seb128> doko, right
[11:06] <persia> doko, Yes.  Complain to quadrispro
[11:06] <pitti> i. e. on the uploader's or sync requestor's side
[11:06] <Laney> anyway, maybe a mail to the uploader CCed to some ML would work here
[11:07] <seb128> as said before the issue there is the maintainer, no how it was synced
[11:08] <ajmitch> now if it was fine in debian & only failed to build on those archs in ubuntu, that's harder to catch for a maintainer
[11:08] <bdrung_> yes, the uploader has to make sure that the package builds
[11:08] <pitti> persia: I mainly use my syncpackage script because it simplifies my workflow; I don't need to wait for a day after the Debian upload and then remember to do the sync, etc.
[11:09] <ajmitch> bdrung_: right, but it's hard to test on hardware we don't have unless it's uploaded to PPAs
[11:09] <Laney> It's easy to catch, because you get a mail for the FTBFS.
[11:10] <bdrung_> ajmitch: it needs to build at least on your architecture
[11:10] <persia> pitti, I almost always wait, just to check for odd build issues, etc. (although less now that I can test-compile on all remaining architectures in Ubuntu)
[11:10] <Laney> fixing with a subsequent upload isn't a problem
[11:10] <Laney> ignoring porting problems is
[11:10] <quadrispro> ehy, I'm here, hi all. Sorry for the {delay,mistake}, I need just some minutes and I'm working on the patch
[11:10] <pitti> persia: hm; I just build on amd64; I don't think that a lot of people test-build on more than one arch
[11:10] <persia> Laney, Ideally, I'd prefer that it wasn't like that, just because sometimes it interferes with images at milestone times.
[11:11] <pitti> and frankly, I think they shouldn't
[11:11] <persia> Why not?
[11:11] <pitti> sudden arch specific FTBFS don't happen often enough to warrant slowing down every developer to test build on arm
[11:11] <doko> quadrispro: it's now fixed
[11:11] <pitti> you'd kill a lot of productivity for a very unlikely cause
[11:11] <pitti> and if it FTBFSes on the arm buildds, you'll get a mail and can still deal with it
[11:11] <persia> pitti, most packages don't take *that* long on armel, but yeah, until there's lots more fast HW...
[11:12] <quadrispro> oh, I get there late
[11:12] <pitti> persia: well, but few people have an armel box at home :)
[11:12] <doko> yes, three month
[11:12] <persia> pitti, Yeah, well, ones capable of running what Ubuntu appears to have stabilized upon have only been on the market ~1 year.
[11:13] <pitti> persia: and even if they do, I still consider test-rebuilding every package update locally on three arches before upload a massive waste of developer time/power
[11:13] <doko> pitti: in this case: https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=lash&suite=experimental
[11:13]  * persia needs to clean up and publish some scripts.
[11:13] <pitti> doko: oh, I wasn't arguing against checking the Debian buildds before requesting/doing a sync
[11:14] <pitti> doko: just that I don't want people to test-build every upload on three arches
[11:14] <persia> pitti, I think everyone should test-build on every arch *as long as it doesn't slow them down*.
[11:14] <persia> I agree that waiting around for builds to finish is a waste of time.
[11:15] <pitti> persia: but it will slow you down..
[11:15] <persia> Why?
[11:15] <pitti> persia: I don't think our buildds are a bottleneck enough to consider the odd arch specific FTBFS as too much of a resource waste
[11:15] <pitti> developer time >> buildd time
[11:16] <quadrispro> the ftbfs mail was put in spam by gmail... I'm very very sorry of that
[11:16] <quadrispro> 25 september
[11:16] <pitti> persia: how many devs do you know who have a fully automated kees-style sbuild system which will do automatic builds on three arches for a pacakge?
[11:16] <persia> Maybe 10.
[11:16] <pitti> wow
[11:16] <pitti> that's about 9 more than I know, so I'm honestly surprised
[11:16] <pitti> persia: well, let's just agree to disagree then
[11:17] <doko> pitti: but it adds work load for people then having to clear up things
[11:17] <persia> I might be over-estimating, but I know there's been quite a few of us who have been discussing the multi-arch simultaneous sbuild dispatch stuff over the past 3-4 cycles.
[11:17] <pitti> doko: no, why?
[11:17] <doko> pitti: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/
[11:17] <pitti> doko: if I upload a new package which suddenly FTBFSes on armel because of, say, a toolchain change, I get notified and can fix it afterwards
[11:17] <pitti> how does that slow down anyone else?
[11:18] <doko> so the soname upload have to be done again
[11:18] <pitti> but 90% of the FTBFSes that I get are either random buildd congestion or bad timing with library transitions, etc.; and they don't happen on local rebuilds anyway, so they wouldn't help me at all
[11:18] <pitti> doko: soname upload?
[11:19] <pitti> "same"?
[11:19] <persia> pitti, The difference might be that folks who chase build failures get the worst of things, for packages that aren't watched so closely, and you take care of healthy packages that just work.
[11:19] <pitti> persia: presumably
[11:19] <doko> liblash soname change
[11:19] <pitti> persia: but I'm specifically not talking about trying to fix an existing FTBFS
[11:19] <persia> Because I wish things worked the way you describe, but sympathise with doko's experience.
[11:19] <pitti> I'm not arguing about the lash example here
[11:20] <pitti> I agree that one should at least check Debian buildd status before requesting a sync
[11:20] <doko> but while I have all your attention ...
[11:20] <pitti> I'm just aguing against your "every dev shoudl test-buid every upload on every arch"
[11:20] <persia> doko, ?
[11:20] <doko>    ... there are still three powerpc build failures we should care about: performous-tools, mrpt and odin
[11:21] <doko> and: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/libopensync0-dev
[11:21] <azeem> what's with libopensync0-dev?
[11:22] <pitti> it's NBS
[11:22] <doko> azeem: not anymore in the archive
[11:22] <azeem> ah
[11:22] <pitti> azeem: the reverse dependencies need to be rebuilt against libopensync1exp7
[11:22] <azeem> good luck
[11:22] <pitti> cjwatson mentioned that these are nontrivial, i. e. require sourceful changes
[11:22] <\sh> pitti: how should someone do sbuild setups for arm archs on an amd64 which can do i386 and amd64 for me? If that's needed, I'm happy to setup my machine for that...
[11:22] <persia> doko, performous looks reasonably easy.  I'll try my quick solution on a build (but am planning to sleep, so won't upload for some hours)
[11:22] <azeem> pitti: if you dropped libopensync0-dev, I advise to just pull opensync altogether
[11:23] <pitti> \sh: that's what I'm saying -- I don't think you should, unless you are working on an arm specific issue
[11:23] <azeem> we dropped libopensync1exp7 for squeeze, or never really considered it
[11:23] <pitti> azeem: well, "you" -- Debian did
[11:23] <pitti> I guess someone asked for an experimental sync
[11:23] <persia> \sh, `mk-sbuild --arch=armel maverick` :)  (It's a bit buggy, and better to use real HW)
[11:24] <azeem> ok, I don't know what the reason was to remove opensync-0.22
[11:24] <\sh> pitti: well, but I would like to know if the packages are building on all supported platforms, even if arm is nothing I'm involved in the first place
[11:24] <persia> --arch=powerpc is supposed to work, but it doens't very well :(
[11:24] <pitti> \sh: if only we had machines which would automatically build your upload on all supported architectures :)
[11:24] <\sh> persia: yeah...that's one of the problem...it's not reliable then real hw...but I'm one of the happy guys, who don't own any arm devices, and I wouldn't know for what I would need such devices ;)
[11:25] <persia> I like them for really small laptops :)
[11:27] <\sh> pitti: well, if ARM ARCH vendors are interested in support ubuntu development they could sponsor a build farm or at least the access to those devices for building purposes
[11:28] <pitti> \sh: we do have armel buildds
[11:28] <pitti> \sh: and you'll get a mail if it fails to build there
[11:28] <persia> \sh, Both Genesi and TI have currently open public board offerings for open source developers.
[11:29] <\sh> pitti: yes...but we could testbuild them before occupying needed resources on those buildds...I mean, before I upload anything, I have at least two automatic arch builds on my local sbuild server
[11:33] <\sh> persia: for what purpose? more desktop agnostic, or as well server agnostic? for server things I could even occupy resources in our DC to eventually provide cheap and energy efficient alternatives for having Tomcat apps servers or Mono app servers...;)
[11:34] <persia> I believe TI is looking for folks to do exciting and cool things with their just announced new board.  Genesi seems to be looking for folks to generally improve a number of use cases so they can push follow-on products.
[11:35] <persia> But I'm just guessing.
[11:36] <Riddell> ogra: where can I download the ubuntu netbook ARM images for beta?
[11:37] <ogra> Riddell, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-netbook/ports/releases/maverick/
[11:37] <Riddell> ogra: oh aye, duh
[11:44] <geser> doko: I just saw on the recent FTBFS rebuild results that python3-stdlib-extensions 3.1.2-1 FTBFS and that you fixed it already in Debian. Should we try to get the fix into maverick?
[11:45] <doko> geser: on my radar, main is currently frozen
[11:47] <cjwatson> hallyn: I really don't know very much about cryptsetup, I'm afraid ...
[11:49] <cjwatson> mvo: oh good, I hadn't analysed the output of my run yet.  what was the problem?
[11:54] <cjwatson> azeem: I'd be a bit concerned about dropping opensync given that we've had people turning up to UDS before telling us how important opensync is
[11:54] <cjwatson> (and yes, I know they haven't contributed the developer effort to get it all in sync for maverick, but still ...)
[12:12] <azeem> cjwatson: right
[12:12] <azeem> cjwatson: it's just a pretty sad situation
[12:12] <azeem> upstream development picked up again, but 0.3x isn't even encouraged to be *packaged* by upstream
[12:12] <azeem> let alone shipped
[12:19] <mvo> cjwatson: there is a little part in the script that copy the build-hosts keys, creates a backup of the trusted.gpg file and then restores it when the livefs build finished
[12:19] <mvo> cjwatson: I have a fix in bzr that I'm testing currently
[12:21] <cjwatson> mvo: I must be blind, I swear I looked for such a thing - but now you mention it I do see it
[12:23] <cjwatson> mvo: your fix looks sensible to me
[12:23] <mvo> cjwatson: fix is in r403, double checking  the diff is welcome of course
[12:23] <mvo> cjwatson: great, I inspect hte image now, if that is good I will upload
[12:24] <mvo> cjwatson: do I need to talk to IS to get it deployed or is that done automatically (i guess the later)?
[12:24] <cjwatson> the latter
[12:24] <mvo> thanks
[12:24] <cjwatson> BuildLiveCD changes require an RT ticket; livecd.sh is upgraded at the start of every build run
[12:25] <mvo> ok
[12:59] <mvo> could some native speaker have a quick look at http://paste.ubuntu.com/503196/ please? the "To see whats new in this release visit" is new text that is displayed right before a lucid->maverick upgrade.
[13:01] <cjwatson> mvo: http://paste.ubuntu.com/503200/
[13:02] <mvo> thanks cjwatson
[13:02] <elmo> 'desktop or server' seems a little outmoded
[13:08] <rgreening> doko: ping
[13:47] <james_w> jibel: \o/ systematically refused is what I wanted :-)
[13:47] <james_w> jibel: it means I diagnosed the problem correctly at least. It's clearly not a fix though
[13:47] <james_w> jibel: thanks for testing
[13:49] <jibel> james_w, that's completely user unfriendly, that's cool then.
[13:49] <jibel> james_w, tell me when you want to test something else.
[13:50] <james_w> oh yeah, it's not a proposed fix, just a way of verifying I had the right idea of the problem
[13:50] <james_w> I'll look at a way of fixing it now
[13:50] <jibel> james_w, no problem, just ping me.
[13:51] <james_w> thanks
[14:04] <Riddell> akgraner: could you tell steveire what he has to do for his talk, he's not done one before
[14:13] <pitti> mvo: is there an apt branch for lucid-updates?
[14:15] <pitti> mvo: (I mean a real one derived from ~ubuntu-core-dev/apt/ubuntu)
[14:16] <mvo> pitti: not currently, why?
[14:16] <pitti> mvo: I'm about to merge our apt in the OEM common PPA with lucid-updates
[14:16] <pitti> mvo: so I'll just grab the diffs from Launchpad and apply them
[14:16] <mvo> pitti: aha, ok. that will be best
[14:20] <akgraner> Riddell, sure I emailed all the session leaders for today and I'll touch base with him as well him on IRC as well....
[14:46] <quadrispro> doko__, I've left a patch on #646824, please let me know
[14:46] <quadrispro> see you soon, bye!
[14:48] <pitti> Riddell: oh, maverick unapproved flushed? the RC images are good then?
[14:49] <Riddell> pitti: they got approved by their various teams, I don't know if what's quite what you were asking :)
[14:49] <doko__> quadrispro: loos fine, will you upload?
[14:49] <pitti> Riddell: great to hear
[14:51] <Riddell> pitti: ubuntu announcement is just waiting on various americans to wake up
[14:51] <pitti> yippie
[14:51] <JontheEchidna> silly west coasters
[14:53] <cjwatson> mvo: should bug 645436 be reclosed given your livecd-rootfs upload?  (though it does mention some typos)
[14:53] <meh2> hey guys.. is there a developemrnt for ubuntu to support touchscreen laptops?
[14:59] <mvo> cjwatson: let me have a look
[15:00] <mvo> cjwatson: I close it now, but fix the typos (they are harmless but confusing)
[15:02] <cjwatson> mvo: thanks
[15:07] <jcastro> can someone moderate my post to -devel from yesterday? (or it might have been the day before)
[15:07] <jcastro> also, it's been 5 years, maybe I can get whitelisted now? :)
[15:12] <paissad_> guys, i'm prompted during my packaging by this
[15:12] <paissad_> out-of-date-standards-version 3.8.4 (current is 3.9.1)
[15:12] <paissad_> but "apt-cache policy debian-policy" shows me 3.8.4 at most !
[15:13] <ScottK> paissad_: Please don't ask the same question on multiple channels.
[15:13] <paissad_> not upgradable from apt-get or aptitude then
[15:13] <paissad_> ScottK, oh sorry ^^ ...
[15:19] <cjwatson> jcastro: done and done
[15:19] <jcastro> thanks!
[15:20] <seb128> jcastro, so nothing is stopping you from spamming us now? ;-)
[15:22] <highvoltage> cjwatson: could you approve my message to the ubuntu-devel list?
[15:22] <cjwatson> uh, I just did a moderation pass - when did you send it?
[15:23] <jcastro> seb128: don't worry, I will stay out of the default aps one. Since I know you already know what to do. :)
[15:23] <highvoltage> cjwatson: about 2 minutes ago
[15:23] <seb128> jcastro, ;-)
[15:23] <highvoltage> (perhaps it's just slow to get there)
[15:23] <cjwatson> not in the moderation queue yet.  be slightly more patient :-)
[15:23] <highvoltage> ok :)
[15:42] <doko> siretart: ping
[16:00] <tkamppeter_> mvo, I have tested printconf and it is not compatible with Ubuntu any more. It lost track with the development of CUPS. I suggest removing it from Ubuntu.
[16:02] <OdyX> tkamppeter_: we might want to discuss this with Chris in order to get it removed from Debian too…
[16:03] <tkamppeter> mvo, OdyX, printconf's upstream ChangeLog ends on 2003-05-27 so it is discontinued upstream. What did hold it so long in the distros.
[16:04] <mvo> tkamppeter: thanks
[16:05] <OdyX> tkamppeter: afaik, it was a project of Chris Lawrence, who happens to be DD, so…
[16:05] <mvo> tkamppeter: what about foomatic-db-gutenprint ? it depends on foomatic-db, can it also depend on foomatic-db-compressed-ppds?
[16:05] <mvo> tkamppeter: same for ebox-printers?
[16:05] <mvo> tkamppeter: those are the three that have no "foomatic-db-compressed-ppds|foomatic-db" in the dependencies
[16:06] <tkamppeter> mvo, the problem is the following:
[16:07] <mvo> tkamppeter: I wrote a request for removal for printconf
[16:07] <tkamppeter> foomatic-db and foomatic-db-gutenprint contain XML files in /usr/share/foomatic. This consumes a lot of space and it is slow to generate PPDs from the XMLs.
[16:08] <tkamppeter> CUPS never reads these XMLs and by default we use system-config-printer which talks only with CUPS via IPP.
[16:08] <tkamppeter> CUPS uses ready-made PPDs in /usr/share/ppd and PPD generators in /user/lib/cups/driver and /usr/share/cups/drv/.
[16:09] <OdyX> tkamppeter: Chris did an update to printconf /which is foomatic-gui/ in 2010 though.
[16:11] <tkamppeter> Foomatic XMLs are accessible to CUPS via /usr/lib/cups/driver/foomatic, but see the disadvantages I mentioned above. Therefore I migrated the Foomatic XML data to the smaller and faster compressed PPD archives, which are also CUPS PPD generators. This makes obtaining the PPDs much faster. Doing this step I was assuming that the printer setup tools currently in use support this by polling the available PPDs from CUPS.
[16:12] <tkamppeter> mvo, OdyX ^^
[16:15] <mvo> OdyX: oh ? hm, so its worth keeping it?
[16:15] <tkamppeter> mvo, OdyX, foomatic-gui also does not start without foomatic-db installed but it has no package dependency on foomatic-db. I will check whether it also works without foomatic-db by removing the foomatic-db check from it.
[16:15] <OdyX> mvo: for Debian, I don't figure myself asking for removal of a package maintained and developped by a DD: it's his call.
[16:17] <tkamppeter> OdyX, you could report a Debian bug suggesting the removal.
[16:18] <OdyX> you could too :p
[16:21] <mvo> tkamppeter: I have not much knowledge about those packages, I leave it to you to decide if they shoudl stay or go, but I can add quirks code to ensure that the get removed on upgrade to not block the 10.10 upgrade from 10.04
[16:21] <mvo> tkamppeter: what about foomatic-db-gutenprint, can that grow a "foomatic-db-compressed-ppds|foomatic-db" dpeendency?
[16:28] <tkamppeter> mvo, OdyX, foomatic-gui is better but still unusable. It finds the local printers with the URIs of current CUPS, but for network printers it falls into an infinite loop (-> bug) and for the PPD choice it only offers PPDs to be generated from the currently installed XML files, no ready-made PPDs and no PPD generators (it does not ask CUPS for available drivers/PPDs).
[16:29] <tkamppeter> mvo, so I ask you to make the update from Lucid to Maverick uninstall printconf and foomatic-gui and install system-config-printer if it is missing.
[16:31] <tkamppeter> foomatic-db-gutenprint needs foomatic-db, as it is an add-on to foomatic-db. Users of foomatic-db-compressed-ppds who want to use ijsgutenprint have to install ijsgutenprint-ppds instead of foomatic-db-gutenprint.
[16:33] <tkamppeter> mvo, for Ubuntu I recommend removing the foomatic-gui source package altogether, as in current Ubuntu it is totally unusable.
[16:35] <OdyX> tkamppeter: could you send an argumented bugreport to the Debian foomatic-gui package with high severity ? That'd be great to track that issue.
[16:36] <tkamppeter> OdyX, OK.
[16:37] <OdyX> nice. Thanks.
[16:37] <tkamppeter> mvo, which other packages require foomatic-db? ebox-printer and which was the other?
[16:38] <siretart> doko: hi
[16:39] <mvo> tkamppeter: those theree, ebox-print, printconf and foomatic-db-gutenprint
[16:43] <tkamppeter> mvo, bug 647460 updated.
[16:44] <tkamppeter> foomatic-db-gutenprint really needs foomatic-db as I told, but we have ijsgutenprint-ppds to replace it.
[16:45] <tkamppeter> mvo ^^
[16:45] <tkamppeter> mvo, ebox-print I do not know what it is good for and who is supposed to use it. I will have a look into it.
[16:51] <tkamppeter> mvo, I cannot find ebox-print or ebox-printer. What is the exact package name?
[16:55] <mvo> tkamppeter: its ebox-printers
[16:55] <tkamppeter> mvo, found it, it is ebox-printers, but I could not test it due to dependency problems. The system refuses to install all this ebox stuff.
[17:00] <mvo> tkamppeter: thanks, if you can figure out more let me know, in the meantime I add the handling to update-manager
[17:01] <tkamppeter> mvo, OK.
[17:03] <doko_> siretart: how to make ffmpeg more verbose?
[17:07] <ricotz> mvo, i hope you are updating gnome-keyring to 2.32 to solve the annoying ssh-key-unlock bug which is fixed since 2.31.92 https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-keyring/+bug/631980
[17:07] <mvo> ricotz: that is probably more something for didrocks or seb128
[17:08] <ricotz> mvo, ok, i just saw your upload
[17:08] <didrocks> ricotz: no we won't
[17:08] <didrocks> ricotz: it's quite late and we got some issues with it
[17:08] <mvo> ricotz: yeah, it was just a drive-by-upload :)
[17:08] <tkamppeter> mvo the ebox stuff is a server infrastructure, probably generally not working on desktop systems. ebox-printers is written in Perl and directly using the Perl module of foomatic-db-engine. I do not know whether it asks also CUPS for PPDs or whether it requires the Foomatic XML database. Basing printer support exclusively on Foomatic is a bug in nowaday's life.
[17:08] <mvo> ricotz: the real exports are didrocks and seb
[17:08] <ricotz> didrocks, could you aleast add this http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-keyring/commit/?id=d9ef94455d115d8fed29a3071b5b19ca632fb932
[17:09] <didrocks> ricotz: yeah, this commit seems safe :)
[17:09] <ricotz> didrocks, this is the commit which is supposed to have fixed it
[17:09] <seb128> ricotz, do you have an upstream or launchpad bug for it?
[17:09] <didrocks> ricotz: the gsettings transition was quite late in the process, hence the fact we don't update
[17:09] <ricotz> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627815#c1
[17:09] <seb128> didrocks, I can do it
[17:09] <didrocks> seb128: thanks :)
[17:09] <ricotz> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-keyring/+bug/631980
[17:09] <seb128> didrocks, you have quite some items on your todo already
[17:10] <seb128> ricotz, ok
[17:10] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, I keep seeing items appending :p
[17:10] <ricotz> seb128, thanks
[17:11] <seb128> ricotz, you're welcome
[17:12] <mvo> is there someone with a dell mini9 who can tell me if sata is set to "compat" or "ahci" mode by default?
[17:27] <tkamppeter> mvo, bug 647460 updated.
[17:27] <mvo> thanks tkamppeter
[17:55] <siretart> in case doku pings me again. the answer is 'make V=1'
[18:08]  * samiz is away: Away
[18:45] <tkamppeter> mvo, I have reported Debian bug 598639 now.
[18:45] <achiang> hm, i thought [[ expression ]] was legal posix shell
[18:46] <achiang> but i'm getting [[: not found when using #!/bin/sh
[18:46] <tkamppeter> OdyX, see Debian bug 598639.
[19:12] <james_w> jibel: new package in my PPA if you could test it (I still can't reproduce)
[19:12] <james_w> hopefully this one fixes it
[19:32] <mvo> thanks tkamppeter, I just uploaded the new update-manager with the workaround as well
[20:24] <jibel> james_w, I'm testing the new package
[20:27] <james_w> thanks
[20:28] <tkamppeter> mvo, does your workaround on update-manager also solve the foomatic-db-gutenprint problem, by replacing foomatic-db-gutenprint with ijfgutenprint-ppds?
[20:39] <jibel> james_w, \o/ I've tried many different ways to reproduce the bug and failed. That seems to be fixed!
[20:39] <jibel> james_w, any idea how I could test potential regressions ?
[20:39] <james_w> jibel: not really beyond using it
[20:40] <james_w> I'm not sure if we should try and get this in to final
[20:41] <jibel> james_w, I would be better to do an SRU just after the release
[20:41] <james_w> yeah
[20:42] <jibel> james_w, I'm the only tester and only 20 minutes that's not enough to guarantee against the risk of regression.
[20:43] <james_w> yeah, I meant more whether we should scramble for more testing now, or take the time and do an SRU
[20:44] <james_w> I'm fine with the latter, it's just that if it affects a lot of people then it will be a stain on the software-center experience
[20:44] <jibel> james_w, have you seen lot users complaining about this bug ? You should raise it to the release team.
[20:45] <james_w> a fair number, but not hundreds
[20:45] <james_w> plus it's always been in lucid
[20:51] <mvo> tkamppeter: thanks, I can add that too, its not there yet foomatic-db-gutenprint->ijfgutenprint-ppds?
[20:53] <tkamppeter> mvo, yes, that's it.
[20:53] <mvo> tkamppeter: I made a note and will add it tomorow
[20:56] <tkamppeter> mvo, only for ebox-printers I do not know what is best. The ebox series of packages seems to be a server environment, so it is not very probable that someone installs it together with ubuntu-desktop. And ubuntu-desktop initiates the migration from foomatic-db to foomatic-db-compressed-ppds.
[22:18] <kaizoku> Hi, I'm looking to enable ttys on a installation livecd. Anyone know how I can go about this?
[23:45] <SpamapS> can somebody explain to me how openssh-server can both Replace and Depend on openssh-client ?
[23:48] <ajmitch> SpamapS: versioned Replaces & Depends
[23:48] <ajmitch> the Replaces: version is << something quite old
[23:50] <soren> ajmitch: Yeah, 1:3.8.1p1-11 is timestamped October 2004 :)
[23:51] <soren> Even Debian has had a few releases out since then :)
[23:52] <ajmitch> soren: right, I was only checking launchpad, and even dapper had 4.2p1 :)
[23:55] <soren> ajmitch: warty was 1:3.8.1p1-11ubuntu3.
[23:55] <ajmitch> so this goes back to the pre-history of ubuntu :)
[23:55] <SpamapS> oh the apt-cache command didn't show the versions
[23:56] <SpamapS> show does though
[23:57] <soren> ajmitch: But sure, if someone has a woody box they want to upgrade directly to maverick..
[23:57]  * soren coughs
[23:57] <soren> Ah, no, even sarge, actually.
[23:57] <soren> But still, that's hardly relevant.
[23:58] <ajmitch> then they should be hung, drawn & quartered?
[23:58] <ajmitch> even a minimal chroot would hardly be able to upgrade
[23:59] <soren> They at the very least deserve the pain of the sshd_config man page moving to openssh-server and dpkg shouting about it.
[23:59]  * soren is happy he's very tired, otherwise he'd be attempting such an upgrade, just for giggles.


[00:41] <sarnold> LeMike: hah, figures :) still, now you know a new tool :D not all bad
[19:00] <xrandr_mac> Hi.. I am trying to find some documentation on UFW as I am a little new to it. I am trying to understand what this line means: -A ufw-http-logdrop -m limit --limit 5/min --limit-burst 10 -j LOG --log-prefix "[UFW HTTP DROP] "
[19:01] <xrandr_mac> Specifically what the --limit and --limit-burst does. I understand --limit is limiting something, but the 5/min... what is that doing along with the limit burst?
[19:21] <tomreyn> xrandr_mac: this is for rate limiting by ip address. see iptables-extensions(8) and search for: ^   limit
[19:21] <xrandr_mac> Ok thanks
[19:26] <xrandr_mac> That cleared it up
[19:26]  * xrandr_mac offers tomreyn a beer for his troubles :)
[19:29] <tomreyn> no troubles here ;) thanks, though
[19:30] <xrandr_mac> Was wondering why I kept being locked out of my website lol
[21:07] <JanC> xrandr_mac: it's intended to be used with things like SSH or VPNs
[21:09] <xrandr_mac> JanC, wanted to prevent DDOS attacks
[21:11] <JanC> you can probably do that with a custom iptables rule similar to the one created by UFW, but less trigger-happy  :)
[21:12] <RoyK> or use nftables if you're on the cutting edge ;)
[21:12] <JanC> isn't nftables replaced yet?   ;)
[21:13] <JanC> s/replaced/superseded/
[21:13] <RoyK> no
[21:13] <RoyK> ifw was superseeded by ipchanges, which was superseeded by iptables, which as superseeded by nftables
[21:13] <RoyK> s/ifw/ipfw/
[21:14] <RoyK> and not ipchanges, ipchains
[21:15] <RoyK> interesting how my fingers just write on automatically
[21:21] <xrandr_mac> lol
[21:21] <xrandr_mac> I think for now I am going to just disable that rule...
[21:24] <JanC> RoyK: there is now also something called bpfilter which is based on eBPF, but it's still a WiP   :)
[21:28] <RoyK> oh - didn't know that
[21:38] <RoyK> JanC: seems rather cutting edge - probably take a wee while to stabilise
[21:41] <JanC> :)
[21:47] <havenstance> anyone have any idea why a Standard Lamp stack containing MySQL instead of MariaDB on Ubuntu Server 18.01.1 LTS would be lagging when trying to view the page?
[21:54] <havenstance> nvm google-fu found the answer, I'll be migrating this to MariaDB
[22:57] <trippeh_> RoyK: very cutting edge indeed - I dont think they have any actual functionality yet.
[22:58] <trippeh_> basically an experiment at this stage.
[22:59] <trippeh_> also nftables might move over to the same infra IIRC. today nftables uses something similar to but not BPF
[23:12] <RoyK> trippeh_: I don't know BPF, but I read nftables uses a miniature vm with a micro-OS
[23:12] <RoyK> not even an OS, really
[23:12] <RoyK> separate instruction set etc
[23:13] <trippeh_> yes, like BPF.
[23:14] <RoyK> perhaps nftables will disappear like upstart, then…
[23:15] <trippeh_> or just become another frontend
[23:35] <RoyK> BPF certainly looks promising, though
[23:37] <RoyK> https://cilium.io/blog/2018/04/17/why-is-the-kernel-community-replacing-iptables/ The most recent development in the evolution of BPF is an exciting proposal to completely replace the kernel part of iptables with BPF in a way that is completely transparent to the user, i.e. existing iptables client binaries and libraries will continue to work.
[23:40] <RoyK> I've never worked with systems large enough to hit the bottleneck of iptables, though
[23:41] <RoyK> but then - I don't have 20k Kubernetes services
[23:45] <trippeh_> I've experimented a bit with BPF - but not the bpfilter, as that is still not very useful
[23:45] <trippeh_> XDP is fun
[23:47] <trippeh_> the tracing stuff too
[23:48] <RoyK> so - perhaps nftables is just a pit stop?
[23:49] <RoyK> I don't really see the difference - I don't know the stuff under the hood
[23:49] <RoyK> between nftables and bpfilter, that is
[23:49] <trippeh_> I'd expect nftables to just become another frontend to bpfilter, with nicer syntax than iptables.
[23:50] <trippeh_> if bpfilter pans out that is. that we do not know.
[23:50] <RoyK> but what about nftables? it too uses a completely different backend than iptables
[23:50] <trippeh_> althouth nftables have shown the bytecode approach to be viable.
[23:52] <RoyK> BPF - is that how freebsd has been doing firewalling the latest years, hence the "berkley" name?
[23:52] <trippeh_> nftables would be changed to emit BPF. like iptables would be
[23:53] <trippeh_> BPF var originally a filter for sockets, for tcpdump and the like. not really a firewall thing.
[23:53] <trippeh_> the BPF in linux is significantly extended
[23:54] <RoyK> just wondered - uio.no built this service for sensitive data some years back, mainly for universities and colleges, but also others, in norway, and I know they used freebsd for the firewall, at least 5 years back
[23:55] <RoyK> the rest is mostly linux
[23:55] <trippeh_> you're thinking about pf probably
[23:55] <RoyK> possibly
[23:55] <RoyK> I just never saw the big deal with pf compared to iptables
[23:56] <trippeh_> pf has nothing to do with BPF
[23:57] <RoyK> ok
[23:57] <RoyK> btw, any idea why some would prefer pf to iptables?
[23:57] <trippeh_> many hate the iptables syntax. I dont mind it either
[23:57] <RoyK> I'm quite used to iptables
[23:58] <RoyK> works
[23:59] <RoyK> that obviously doesn't mean it's optimal


[00:00] <pleia2> actually the wikipedia tells me it came out in 2002, so only 9 years ago :)
[00:00] <jhanafrog> plus the frozen throne came out even later
[00:00] <pleia2> yeah
[00:01] <pleia2> 2003
[00:01] <pleia2> I never got the expansion pack
[00:01] <jhanafrog> i did, it was fun
[00:02] <pleia2> I used to play the game aaaalll the time with my ex-husband, I am not sure why, he always lost
[00:02] <pleia2> I even tried mixing it up by playing random every time so I didn't get too good at one faction
[00:02] <jhanafrog> did you use cracks?
[00:02] <pleia2> nope
[00:03] <jhanafrog> i used to play online with random
[00:03] <jhanafrog> i think my highest level was 15
[00:03] <pleia2> I always played through wine, so no battle.net for me
[00:03] <jhanafrog> or was it 14?  i don't remember, it was pathetic though
[00:03] <pleia2> only played at home or at lan parties
[00:03] <jhanafrog> oh, battle.net doesn't work through wine?
[00:03] <jhanafrog> interesting
[00:03] <pleia2> it's complicated
[00:04] <pleia2> the wine support back then wasn't great, so you could get it to run, but it fell over itself when you tried to download the battle.net patches
[00:04] <jhanafrog> hmmm, yeah, battle.net "doesn't work" through wine for me either
[00:04] <jhanafrog> even now
[00:04] <jhanafrog> but i suspect it's this "demo" i'm trying
[00:05] <pleia2> I got Diablo 2 working with battle.net in 2006: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=980
[00:05] <jhanafrog> and there were like a ton, since there were all these cracks
[00:05] <jhanafrog> i wonder when blizzard will make "Angeles 1"
[00:05] <pleia2> but then I never played it because I was bored of it and battle.net is scary
[00:05] <jhanafrog> ha. :|
[00:05] <pleia2> it didn't used to be so spammy
[00:05]  * pleia2 nostalgia
[00:06] <jhanafrog> i got "instakilled" once and then stopped playing it on battle.net
[00:06] <jhanafrog> i never got the diablo 2 expansion set
[00:06] <pleia2> sad
[00:07] <jhanafrog> females seem to like that game a lot
[00:07] <jhanafrog> i don't know why
[00:07] <pleia2> we like killing things
[00:07] <jhanafrog> or...maybe it's because they always like the "bad boys", and who's badder than satan himself?
[00:07] <pleia2> hahaha
[00:07] <pleia2> I named one of my cats Baal
[00:08] <pleia2> I've moved on since then, my cats now are Simcoe and... oh darn... Caligula
[00:08] <jhanafrog> or, herself, i'm not sure anyone has verified The Accuser's gender
[00:09] <jhanafrog> ah, Baal is nostalgic
[00:09] <jhanafrog> Kaligula, isn't that the murderous disciple of the Buddha with the bad Karma?
[00:09] <pleia2> oh, this is good: http://bash.org/?14409
[00:10] <jhanafrog> bad stuff kept happening to him :(
[00:10] <jhanafrog> this is scary:  WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!  remastersys  Install these packages without verification [y/N]? y
[00:10] <pleia2> nah, Caligula is the murderous, perverted emperor of rome
[00:10] <jhanafrog> oh, i always think of Nero
[00:10] <pleia2> perfect name for a cat, no?
[00:10] <jhanafrog> i guess they had a few
[00:11] <pleia2> yeah
[00:11] <jhanafrog> i named my cat Shinobi
[00:11] <jhanafrog> i had another one named Boshido
[00:11] <jhanafrog> Boshido is dead :(
[00:11] <pleia2> aww
[00:11] <jhanafrog> Shinobi is missing a tooth
[00:11] <jhanafrog> haha, funny
[00:11] <jhanafrog> wrt bash.org
[00:13] <jhanafrog> okay then, i guess i'll go over there now
[01:21] <aaditya> I'm tempted to respond to the last message on the mailing list informing them about the event tonight (though they would probably know about it), but that'd make me even more late for the Ubuntu hour.
[01:22]  * aaditya throws smoke bombs around and fades away.
[01:35] <gadgetdevil> The Sony Z is 1080p sub 13 inch, but it is no way under 13000
[01:35] <gadgetdevil> *1300
[01:47] <lfitz> is the intel 855gm module available in the latest kernel? we are at ubuntu lake forest, trying to figure this out...
[01:51] <Eureka> wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UbuntuHours edited
[01:51] <quavmo> Howdy!
[01:51] <quavmo> I'm at Ubuntu Hour in Mountain View!
[01:51] <quavmo> I n the Red Rock Cafe, woohoo!
[01:52] <quavmo> Hey, jtatum, pleia2, see you soon?
[01:53] <jledbetter> quavmo, I think jtatum is on his way :)
[01:59] <quavmo> He's right here!
[02:05] <jledbetter> Woot!
[02:41] <jtatum> and here i am
[02:44] <jledbetter> jtatum, Welcome to California
[03:30] <pleia2> sorry, HOA meeting tonight, couldn't make it down :(
[03:32] <pleia2> (my boyfriend is on the board, so he has to come home for meetings, no ride home from mt view for me!)
[03:42] <jtatum> no worries pleia2
[03:42] <jtatum> greetings violajack
[03:42] <violajack> Hi, coming to you from Ubuntu hour Mountain View
[03:43] <violajack> You're too far away jtatum, voice communications don't work across the table
[03:43] <akk> I can pass messages ...
[03:44] <dragonoid> Hi all
[03:45] <dragonoid> How's it hangin'?
[03:58] <dragonoid> Hello byron
[03:58]  * dragonoid pokes violajack
[03:59]  * dragonoid types something
[04:00] <akk> HI, byron!
[04:00] <dragonoid> For those who are wondering why I'm acting a bit different - we're testing xchat here..
[04:01] <dragonoid> ;)
[04:03] <akk> IRCing with people sitting at the same table FTW
[04:04] <byron> Great for an IRC noob
[04:10] <byron> Bye!
[04:16] <jinjorge> just discovered there was a Ubuntu Hour this evening and I missed it
[04:54] <iheartubuntu> no luck on the monitor or projector for me tonite
[04:55] <iheartubuntu> i just took my entire dekstop computer and set it up in the board room
[04:55] <iheartubuntu> it worked
[04:56] <iheartubuntu> the laptop i tried to get to work with the projector also has Win7 on it and it could not connect to the projector either. so maybe im doing something wrong. ubuntu sees the monitor but doing Fn+F5 just gives me a blank screen on both the projector and laptop
[05:15] <jhanafrog> is fn+f5 the right key sequence?  it should have a little monitor icon, i'm not sure if it's always fn+f5
[05:15] <jhanafrog> iheartubuntu:
[05:21] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: ignore what everyone is saying.  Power down the laptop, plug in the monitor, then power on the laptop.  Once you're in Ubuntu, use System > Administration > Monitors to configure your monitors.
[05:22] <nhaines> That's the very first thing to try.  You can move on to other instructions if that doesn't work.
[05:22] <iheartubuntu> hmm
[05:22] <iheartubuntu> i have two monitor looking icons
[05:22] <iheartubuntu> F5 and also F6
[05:22] <iheartubuntu> one of them seems to do nothing
[05:22] <iheartubuntu> the other turns my screeen black
[05:23] <iheartubuntu> I had ubuntu seeing the projector and when i tried to switch to it, it just did nothing.
[05:23] <iheartubuntu> i tried to do it all in Win7 side and nothing also. My next attempt was to boot into Ubuntu again with everything plugged in, but Win7 would not shut down :) like, ever.
[05:24] <iheartubuntu> i had to disconnect the battery to turn it off so i never got to finally try.
[05:25] <iheartubuntu> so yah i was in the monitors setting, but only after plugging in the projector
[05:28] <nhaines> You're under no obligation to follow my advice, of course.  :)
[05:34] <iheartubuntu> :)
[05:34] <iheartubuntu> i will give that a try tomorrow when i get into work
[05:34] <iheartubuntu> my speech went well
[05:34] <iheartubuntu> sorta like a prep to get back into the speaking ring for me
[05:34] <iheartubuntu> was a toastmaster back in boy scouts
[05:35] <iheartubuntu> now hope i can somehow use this to help ubuntu
[05:36] <iheartubuntu> off to bed. did not sleep last nite. good night nathan. nice talking as always!
[05:58] <jhanafrog> i had assumed he tried restarting :)
[05:58] <jhanafrog> oh he left :(
[12:21] <jhanafrog> i'm up crazy early this morning
[16:13] <iheartubuntu> akk - i didnt have luck last night with the projector :(
[16:13] <akk> bummer, iheartubuntu :(
[16:13] <iheartubuntu> i know it was hooked up right too
[16:13] <iheartubuntu> so something im not doing right i guess
[16:14] <akk> The hookup is pretty easy. The problems are almost always bios/software.
[16:14] <iheartubuntu> nhaines gave me some tips, i'll bring the projector home tonite and test things and check the forums
[16:14] <akk> Does it talk to a monitor but not the projector?
[16:14] <iheartubuntu> how hard can this be :)
[16:14] <iheartubuntu> they both acted the same
[16:14] <iheartubuntu> monitor or projector
[16:15] <iheartubuntu> i can see the desktop wallpaper, but no icons on the desktop
[16:15] <iheartubuntu> no top and bottom bars either
[16:15] <akk> Okay, so probably not a resolution problem. When it only happens on a projector, it can be that it's sending a resolution the projector doesn't like.
[16:15] <akk> Oh, wait, so it is a resolution problem.
[16:15] <iheartubuntu> you think?
[16:15] <iheartubuntu> it looked like the wallpaper was the right size
[16:15] <akk> Did you go through that dialog I pasted yesterday, where you set the resolution of the second monitor?
[16:15] <iheartubuntu> i'll have to go through it again. i was pressed for time
[16:16] <iheartubuntu> thanks to OO Impress, people were impressed :)
[16:16] <akk> And, wait, gnome by default uses a second monitor as a second monitor, not as a dup of the first one.
[16:16] <iheartubuntu> I ended up setting up my desktop system with big monitor in the room
[16:16] <iheartubuntu> yah, i had to go into monitors setting and switch it
[16:17] <iheartubuntu> even monitors recognized the monitor and projector
[16:17] <iheartubuntu> strange i didnt at least see desktop icons
[16:17] <iheartubuntu> could the projector be too old?
[16:17] <akk> You switched it to make the second monitor be a dup of the first, but it wasn't showing the same thing?
[16:17] <iheartubuntu> monitor is only a year old
[16:17] <akk> If you were seeing anything at all, it isn't a too-old problem.
[16:17] <iheartubuntu> i dont know if i duped thme
[16:17] <iheartubuntu> them
[16:18] <iheartubuntu> projector was bought in 2008 i believe
[16:18] <iheartubuntu> 2007
[16:18] <iheartubuntu> has the typical vga to vga connector
[16:19] <akk> If gnome (or compiz or whatever) is treating them as separate screens, then you can drag a window from your laptop to the projector or back
[16:19] <akk> but you won't see the same desktop on both, and only one will have top/bottom panels.
[16:19] <iheartubuntu> should i not use compiz maybe?
[16:21] <iheartubuntu> ok thanks
[16:21] <akk> I don't know if gnome + another wm would make it easier or not.
[16:22] <iheartubuntu> i'll copy/paste all our chat and see if i can trouble shoot this. i should be proficient at it all
[16:22] <jhanafrog> btw iheartubuntu when you get a chance, what video chip?
[16:22] <iheartubuntu> i can make a website but cant connect a projector. embarrassing :)
[16:22] <jhanafrog> well, chipset might be a better term
[16:22] <akk> My setup is a lot more straightforward and I just type an xrandr command to send output to another monitor
[16:22] <iheartubuntu> chip?
[16:22] <akk> which in a way is a lot simpler, but it's also a lot less gui and I don't have desktop effects, wobbly windows and all that.
[16:22] <iheartubuntu> hmmm... its a laptop... not sure... i think it could be intel?
[16:22] <jhanafrog> well, it's a notebook, i'm not sure if "card" really applies
[16:22] <jhanafrog> like nvidia, ati, intel
[16:23] <jhanafrog> ah, interesting
[16:23] <iheartubuntu> OHHHhhh and i wonder if i have a problem because im using wubi on that system too
[16:23] <jhanafrog> i have intel too, but i think the i915 driver is used for all intel chipsets
[16:23] <jhanafrog> video chipsets that is
[16:24] <akk> yes, I believe that's true
[16:24] <jhanafrog> ah wubi, that's when i'll bow out
[16:24] <jhanafrog> never used it
[16:24] <akk> except maybe g500 which is some evil proprietary thing
[16:24]  * akk has no clue about wubi either, had to google it just now
[16:24] <akk> but if ubuntu is running directly on the hardware, not in a vm, I wouldn't think it would matter
[16:25] <jhanafrog> i've read stuff on it, but...well...yeah, never used it
[16:25] <iheartubuntu> i didnt want to delete Win7 on that laptop since im sorta borrowing it. I'll wipe Ubuntu off of it when i get around to shipping the laptop to inlaws
[16:25] <jhanafrog> do you have a liveusb iheartubuntu?
[16:26] <iheartubuntu> nope
[16:26] <iheartubuntu> i shoulda ordered one from the ubuntu store
[16:26] <iheartubuntu> dang
[16:26] <jhanafrog> perhaps something to invest in.
[16:26] <jhanafrog> yeah, i guess that would've been good
[16:26] <jhanafrog> i may have an extra one you can borrow
[16:26] <jhanafrog> there is one sitting in my mom's room that has been sitting there for like a month
[16:27] <jhanafrog> well, if you have a livecd you can boot from that and see how the video works
[16:28] <akk> wish they'd make it easier to make liveusb
[16:28] <akk> you could always make a fedora liveusb and try from there :)
[16:28] <iheartubuntu> im going to Frys at lunch
[16:28] <iheartubuntu> 3TB drive for $130
[16:28] <iheartubuntu> that should do me for a while
[16:28] <iheartubuntu> i'll pick up a chip or two
[16:29] <jhanafrog> ha, i've never succeeded in making a fedora liveusb
[16:29] <jhanafrog> whoa, dude, isn't that overkill?
[16:29] <iheartubuntu> what
[16:29] <akk> I just dd it onto the usb stick
[16:29] <iheartubuntu> two chips?
[16:29] <iheartubuntu> i need backup for all my data
[16:29] <jhanafrog> usbstick?
[16:29] <jhanafrog> well, for one, why?
[16:29] <iheartubuntu> 3TB for backup
[16:29] <jhanafrog> and for two, do you have a lot of movies?
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> a TON of movies
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> all russian
[16:30] <jhanafrog> 3TB for seeding :D
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> downloaded form russian sites
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> old soviet cartoons, movies, etc
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> no
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> no seeding
[16:30] <jhanafrog> waaaaat?!  cartoons?!
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> when my wifes family visits i want them to feel at home
[16:30] <jhanafrog> ah, no torrents
[16:30] <jhanafrog> no torrents make me sad
[16:30] <iheartubuntu> have a library of their fave shows
[16:30] <jhanafrog> i put up some torrents on my site http://fictionalphilosophy.org/share
[16:31] <iheartubuntu> they can just plug into the TV and have fun
[16:31] <jhanafrog> the movie "spring summer fall winter and spring" is good
[16:31] <jhanafrog> sad T_T
[16:32] <jhanafrog> well, i guess it's not "good" in the traditional sense
[16:34] <iheartubuntu> is T_T a sad face? sorta looks like one
[16:34] <jhanafrog> yeah, it's supposed to be
[16:35] <jhanafrog> like this:  http://www.ericashenfelter.com/old/Wallpapers/autobot.jpg
[16:35] <jhanafrog> i'm a sad robot :(
[17:12] <iheartubuntu> pliea2 is there anything i need to post today? Palo Alto Ubuntu Hour?
[17:13] <pleia2> nope, nothing today
[17:13] <iheartubuntu> mm k thanks
[17:13] <pleia2> palo alto isn't until next friday :)
[17:13] <iheartubuntu> ohh is that the one that got moved
[17:14] <pleia2> yeah
[17:14] <pleia2> now it's the same day as jono's jam in walnut creek
[17:14] <pleia2> but it's in the evening and the jam is in the dyatime
[17:16] <akk> Probably not many people will drive from WC to PA.
[17:16] <pleia2> I live in between, so if I didn't have work I'd consider both
[17:19] <iheartubuntu> from West Coast to Pennsylvania?
[17:19] <iheartubuntu> ohh walnut creek
[17:45] <iheartubuntu> 8GB flash drive at Frys = $9
[17:49] <iheartubuntu> also at Frys = acer 10.1" netbook, 160GB hd and 1GB mem = $189
[17:49] <iheartubuntu> wow thats cheap
[17:50] <pleia2> it's sad that they don't do the SSD thing so much in netbooks anymore
[17:50] <pleia2> I guess consumers assume bigger harddrive is always better :(
[17:50] <akk> Yes, it is. SSD netbooks are so awesome.
[17:50] <iheartubuntu> that would be great
[17:50] <akk> They never figured out they should advertise that as a great feature
[17:50] <akk> whereas they know how to advertise "160GB"
[17:50] <pleia2> yeah
[17:50] <iheartubuntu> im considering to extend the life of my desktops to switch them to SSD for the main drive and put my current drives as slaves
[17:51] <akk> They need to stress the battery life, or speed differences, or something.
[17:51] <pleia2> to me the old harddrives make the netbook pretty much useless
[17:51] <iheartubuntu> i jsut want to see Ubuntu FLY
[17:51] <pleia2> ssd means I can play catch with it!
[17:51] <akk> I still have a spinning disk in my laptop and it's okay -- but I do appreciate the advantages of SSD.
[17:51] <akk> (do they make 1.8" IDE SSDs?)
[17:51] <iheartubuntu> i wonder if you can plug in an SSD into the SSD card reader slot and boot off of it?
[17:52] <pleia2> akk: I don't think so
[17:52] <iheartubuntu> its no fun taking apart laptops :|
[17:52] <akk> iheartubuntu: Most laptops don't boot off SD card, AFAIK, but you could probably set up a grub entry and PLOP to do that.
[17:52] <pleia2> oh hey, the internet tells me they do
[17:52]  * iheartubuntu has three that are apart laying around the house
[17:52] <KB1JWQ> I had a laptop running Lucid in the early beta phase.
[17:52] <akk> Maybe really new ones do.
[17:52] <KB1JWQ> SSD in it.  Boot time according to bootchart was 12.93 seconds.
[17:53] <iheartubuntu> i was thinking just point it in the bios like u can do to boot off of usb first or whatever
[17:53] <iheartubuntu> hi KB1JWQ
[17:54] <KB1JWQ> iheartubuntu: Booting off of an external USB key isn't going to save you any time.
[17:54] <KB1JWQ> iheartubuntu: You're going to find that the USB drive becomes a bottleneck.
[17:54] <iheartubuntu> jeez... 1.5TB western digital for $69
[17:54] <iheartubuntu> external
[17:55] <KB1JWQ> iheartubuntu: What's the real-world problem you're trying to solve though?  How often do you boot your machine, and how fast do you want it to go? :-)
[17:55] <iheartubuntu> 2TB internal for $79
[17:55] <KB1JWQ> Yeah, it's crazynuts these days.
[17:55] <KB1JWQ> iheartubuntu: Crappy 5400 though?
[17:55] <iheartubuntu> i shut my machine off every time i go to bed or leave the house
[17:55] <iheartubuntu> its a dekstop so i dont want it using electricity
[17:56] <iheartubuntu> 32mb transfer
[17:56] <KB1JWQ> iheartubuntu: Depending on how long you're gone for, low power mode may be better powerwise.
[17:56] <iheartubuntu> u mean hibernating?
[17:57] <iheartubuntu> at work i dont have a choice since all the main power switches get turned off
[17:58]  * iheartubuntu needs computer connected to brain
[17:58] <KB1JWQ> iheartubuntu: Where the heck do you work that KILLS POWER TO THE BUILDING? :-)
[17:59] <iheartubuntu> own biz
[17:59] <iheartubuntu> we have machines generating hundreds of thousands of Kv
[17:59] <iheartubuntu> we shut off EVERYTHING so no power surges destroy the machines at night
[17:59] <iheartubuntu> cant afford to lose any expensive machines
[18:00]  * kdub_ updates wiki page
[18:00]  * iheartubuntu still cant get frankenstein to come alive tho
[18:00] <yantrashilpi> iheartubuntu: and saves a load on the power bills I bet?
[18:00] <iheartubuntu> yah
[18:01] <jhanafrog> too bad you couldn't isolate the electricity
[18:01] <jhanafrog> like computers on this circuit
[18:01] <jhanafrog> other machinery on something else
[18:01] <jhanafrog> then you could suspend
[18:01] <jhanafrog> which would save time
[18:02] <jhanafrog> not much, but it could add up to something significant
[18:02] <iheartubuntu> there are some things we are thinking of and taking to the electric company when we increase to 440v setup
[18:07] <yantrashilpi> iheartubuntu: does that mean you'll have a tesla charging station, hahaha.
[18:20] <iheartubuntu> i wish :)
[18:21] <jhanafrog> i wonder at what point it makes sense to shutdown a system instead of using suspend
[18:22] <jhanafrog> it probably costs less than 7 cents to power a system that is suspended for a day i'm guessing
[18:22] <jhanafrog> since it's like 7 cents an hour to power an lcd tv
[18:23] <yantrashilpi> jhanafrog: I think it's more of a time factor than power, right?
[18:23] <jhanafrog> yantrashilpi: you mean $ factor?
[18:23] <yantrashilpi> possibly.
[18:24] <jhanafrog> that actually brings up an interesting question
[18:24] <jhanafrog> how much electricity is generated each day, it could be a power factor if green is the goal
[18:25] <yantrashilpi> ahh yes, then I think it is still better to turn everything off or hibernate might be an option.
[18:26] <yantrashilpi> what are the most hungry components?
[18:26] <iheartubuntu> in a house or in the ocmputer
[18:26] <iheartubuntu> computer
[18:27] <iheartubuntu> i know a desktop draws a lot more than a laptop
[18:27] <iheartubuntu> dont know how much off hand
[18:27] <yantrashilpi> computer
[18:27] <yantrashilpi> how much cna we really save? is it easier to just turn off the monitors
[18:27] <yantrashilpi> and not worry about the desktops
[18:27] <yantrashilpi> also there is component degradation.
[18:28] <yantrashilpi> you can keep the desktops running all the time but fans will degrade much faster than when they are turned off and not working I'd imagine.
[18:28] <yantrashilpi> it is ALWAYS more green to extend life of a component or reuse it rather than buy a new low power one.
[18:28] <yantrashilpi> if that's the goal that is.
[18:34] <akk> Some desktops can draw around 70-100 watts, like an incandescent bulb, just sitting there (not counting the monitor).
[18:34] <akk> Others are more like 20-25.
[18:34] <kdub_> coming from a kernel development point of view, power management is a reeaallll PITA :P
[18:35] <akk> hmm, actually no, 25 is about rock bottom for a desktop, 40 is more typical for an efficient one.
[18:35] <akk> I got my dual atom machine down to 25W idle with a PicoPSU and a laptop disk.
[18:35] <kdub_> 25 would surprise me too
[18:36] <akk> This faster Intel machine can get down to 35 at idle, with a laptop disk and no services like hal running.
[18:36] <kdub_> i know DarkwingDuck is in San Diego county,  is there anyone else in San Diego county in IRC?
[18:39] <yantrashilpi> so I'd guess turning it off/hibernate would be the best option
[18:41] <akk> yes, though suspend isn't much worse -- only 1-3 watts typically, for a machine that suspends properly.
[18:42] <akk> If you're interested in power usage, a kill-a-watt (about $20) is a great investment -- it's fun and sometimes surprising to see how much power things use.
[18:42] <akk> e.g. plug the tv-vcr-stereo complex into it when they're all "off"
[18:43] <yantrashilpi> ahhh akk that's a smart tool... I should do that. Now i usually just turn everything off when I leave the house.
[18:43] <akk> We do too -- but "turn off" these days doesn't mean "off", since most devices just go to standby mode.
[18:45] <akk> Including computers -- for instance, macs use just as much power "off" as they do in "sleep".
[18:45] <akk> (still not much, though, 2W or something)
[18:46] <akk> I shouldn't say "macs" as it that's all macs ... that's mac minis, we don't have any others to measure.
[18:47] <akk> On one desktop machine I found that unplugging the internal DVD saved 2 watts.
[18:48] <akk> I wasn't using it to read or burn DVDs; just having it plugged in (I think that was IDE, not SATA) upped the machine's power use by that much.
[19:11] <jhanafrog> i wonder if suspend is better for component life than hibernate, since there is more power cycling through.  not sure how to test that one
[19:11] <jhanafrog> probably need some solid EE theory to figure it out
[19:13] <jhanafrog> i guess that is only true for mechanical devices, like hard drives and fans, i guess because of newton's 2nd law
[19:13] <jhanafrog> object in motion and all that
[19:52] <iheartubuntu> sys76 sells an ion meerkat netbox (or something like that).. a desktop that draws only 10w
[19:52] <iheartubuntu> their prices are pretty out of line the more i investigate.
[19:52] <iheartubuntu> i can but something equal for half the price elsewhere.
[19:53] <iheartubuntu> i dont mind supporting open source community, but when prices reach almost double... i dont know
[19:53] <iheartubuntu> thats like people selling ubuntu discs for $20
[19:53] <iheartubuntu> ok not exaclty like it, but still
[19:54] <pleia2> you pay for the testing and support that goes along with the assurance that it'll work flawlessly with linux (can be vital for servers and high end laptops)
[19:54] <pleia2> but admittedly I haven't bought from a linux vendor either
[19:57] <iheartubuntu> i just picked up a 1TB portable hard drive at frys for $80.. awesome. so small! no power cord either :)
[19:58] <iheartubuntu> frys is only a couple miles away :) :)
[20:03] <DarkwingDuck> What's up kdub_?
[20:14] <pleia2> oh fail, I'm going to be in the wrong bit of the world for the typical day for the SF Ubuntu Hour day these next two months
[20:15] <yantrashilpi> pleia2: there is no such thing as wrong bit of the world :). Enjoy your times away, hahah.
[20:16] <pleia2> thanks :)
[20:18] <DarkwingDuck> whoot!
[20:19] <DarkwingDuck> Someone gave me a little Acer AspireOne netbook today
[20:19] <pleia2> nice
[20:20] <DarkwingDuck> Yup
[20:20] <DarkwingDuck> Small
[20:20] <DarkwingDuck> Not used the the keyboard
[20:20] <DarkwingDuck> But, I put my ubuntu graphic on it
[20:20] <DarkwingDuck> :D
[20:21] <DarkwingDuck> Thinking about putting Arch on there and have a non gui netbook
[20:25] <kdub_> DarkwingDuck: i was just trying to see if you knew any other san diego area people who hang out in irc
[20:25] <kdub_> and, arch is a good distro, i used it for a year when it was starting. hopefully only got better since 2008
[20:26] <DarkwingDuck> I'm just looking for CLI only :)
[20:46] <iheartubuntu> Congrats DarkwingDuck for joining the beginners team!
[20:47] <pleia2> he joined the beginners team *council* :)
[20:48] <DarkwingDuck> I've been part of the BT for a while
[20:48] <DarkwingDuck> I was just elected on the council
[20:52] <jhanafrog> congrats DarkwingDuck on joining the beginners team ;)
[20:53] <jhanafrog> apparently FAFSA thinks linux and firefox are an "unsupported browser", but at least it allows the viewing of the page
[20:53] <jhanafrog> with chromium it flat out denies it
[20:54] <yantrashilpi> congratulations DarkwingDuck !
[20:55] <yantrashilpi> jhanafrog: I think many of those govt sites still support only IE6 I think :)
[20:55] <yantrashilpi> I wish Aneesh would do something about that.
[20:56] <jhanafrog> who's Aneesh?
[20:58] <yantrashilpi> the US CTO I believe.
[20:58] <yantrashilpi> kinda like a CTO for the government.
[20:58] <yantrashilpi> I may have his name wrong.
[20:59] <jhanafrog> Aneesh Chopra, i see
[20:59] <iheartubuntu> ohh yes sorry :)
[21:00] <jhanafrog> cool yantrashilpi thanks for info
[21:00] <yantrashilpi> sure no problem!
[21:00] <yantrashilpi> I remember him being appointed and then suddenly a bunch of twitter people were talking about him being at SXSW
[21:01] <jhanafrog> sxsw?  what was he doing there?
[21:01] <jhanafrog> does he play a musical instrument?
[21:01] <yantrashilpi> haha, i don't know. networking I guess... it's like a tech + arts thing right?
[21:02] <yantrashilpi> lots of techies and artists.
[21:02] <jhanafrog> i thought sxsw was just music
[21:02] <jhanafrog> cool
[21:04] <jhanafrog> as if music wasn't enough ;)
[21:07] <yantrashilpi> hahaha jhanafrog music is never enough ;)
[21:07] <yantrashilpi> oh wait... yes it is.
[21:08] <jhanafrog> i can use my computer like i can play a flute...not well
[21:12] <jhanafrog> i love this flute piece:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgmEgrX5aWc
[21:15] <iheartubuntu> wow, ubuntu didnt even give me a time frame for transferring 4 GB of data. QUICK
[21:16] <iheartubuntu> i need another 1TB now :)
[21:16] <akk> pretty, jhanafrog
[21:18] <jhanafrog> i find it gut wrenching
[21:18] <jhanafrog> if i allow it to be
[21:19] <jhanafrog> er, hold on while i learn to write 0's and 1's to a platter iheartubuntu
[21:19]  * akk just got back from looking at flooded creeks and coots and egrets ... the music is going nicely with the photos
[21:20] <yantrashilpi> it is what I call wonderful melancholy jhanafrog ... on that note did anyone else enjoy the rain at all?
[21:21] <jhanafrog> on that note, what is the note for wonderful melachnoly, a C flat?
[21:21] <pleia2> I enjoyed the rain at first...
[21:22] <yantrashilpi> jhanafrog: I think it is the B minor scale... I am probably wrong.
[21:22] <jhanafrog> i neither enjoyed the rain nor despised the rain
[21:22] <jhanafrog> when it got on me, and the wind made me cold, i went inside
[21:23] <jhanafrog> when i felt claustrophobic inside, i went outside under a tree
[21:23] <jhanafrog> this is interesting:  http://www.youtube.com/creators?x=creatorinstitute  you might be interested iheartubuntu
[21:58] <iheartubuntu> what is standard for doing presentations? just running the Impress file from within Impress? What I ended up doing was convert it to PDF so it could be viewed easy on any machine.
[21:59] <iheartubuntu> with PDF it must embed my transitions too. Very nice.
[21:59] <akk> You're getting animated transitions in PDF?
[21:59] <iheartubuntu> in evince YAH
[21:59] <iheartubuntu> even in adobe reader 9 and okular
[22:00] <akk> Huh, wonder if that's that embedded javascript thing that news articles keep saying to turn off because it has so many security holes?
[22:00] <iheartubuntu> pdfs with javascript?
[22:00] <akk> Most people seem to present impress from within impress, but it's helpful to keep a PDF around (or a ppt,if it's for a nonlinux group) in case you need to present on another machine.
[22:00] <jono> hey fokks
[22:00] <jono> folks
[22:01] <jono> can anyone make it to the Walnut Creek Global Jam a week today?
[22:01] <jono> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/701/detail/
[22:01] <akk> and yes, adobe added JS to PDF some time ago, and that's part of why PDF is now the leading vector for malware, surpassing even MS Word.
[22:02] <yantrashilpi> hmmm I"m using nitro on windows and evince on ubuntu so hopefully that alleviates the issue.
[22:02] <yantrashilpi> I'm thinking if you can get an net connection just do it using one of hte online utilities
[22:02] <yantrashilpi> if possible.
[22:03] <akk> I use html so I know my presentations work from online. :)
[22:03] <kdub_> walnut creek's a bit far for me down here :P
[22:03] <akk> yeah, walnut creek's a long way, especially on a weekday.
[22:03] <iheartubuntu> but is there javascript within PDF files generated in ubuntu?
[22:04] <akk> iheartubuntu: I don't think standard PDF includes animation, does it?
[22:04] <iheartubuntu> i dont think so
[22:04] <iheartubuntu> not unless you print it out and flip the pages real fast :)
[22:04] <iheartubuntu> or roll your scroll wheel
[22:04] <iheartubuntu> :p
[22:05] <akk> so it must be doing javascript, if you're seeing animated transitions
[22:05] <akk> or flash -- apparently you can embed flash inside pdf
[22:05]  * akk liked pdf better when it was a format for printed documents
[22:06] <jhanafrog> it's too bad we can't just utilize technology to have like a video conference
[22:06] <iheartubuntu> wait. so evince and openoffice needs java installed to handle transitions?
[22:06] <jhanafrog> that could potentially be a killerapp
[22:06]  * jhanafrog writes a word of code, gives up
[22:06] <akk> java != javascript
[22:06] <iheartubuntu> we could skype
[22:06] <akk> they're not even related, completely different languages with confusingly similar names
[22:07] <jhanafrog> what about empathy?  how does it handle voice and video?
[22:07] <iheartubuntu> you have my empathy janafrog
[22:07] <iheartubuntu> jhanafrog
[22:07] <iheartubuntu> ribit
[22:07] <jhanafrog> we could try skype, i've used it before
[22:07] <jhanafrog> but if there's an foss tool, i'd rather use it
[22:07] <iheartubuntu> i have no camera hooked to this system. empathy thinks my tv card is the webcam
[22:08] <jhanafrog> i've never tried empathy, since i don't know anybody that uses it
[22:08] <iheartubuntu> you know me
[22:08] <jhanafrog> you use it?
[22:08]  * iheartubuntu wishes we could do avatars in irc
[22:09] <iheartubuntu> im using it now
[22:09] <iheartubuntu> cant you tell?
[22:09] <jhanafrog> let me see if i can turn the camera on even
[22:09] <akk> I've heard good things about Big Blue Button for web conferencing.
[22:09] <akk> They had a booth at SCALE but I couldn't really tell much about it from there.
[22:09] <jhanafrog> is it in the repositories?
[22:09] <jhanafrog> it's hard to remember the words on the screen are supposed to represent people
[22:10] <iheartubuntu> http://www.bigbluebutton.org/
[22:11] <iheartubuntu> u can do a demo on their page
[22:11] <jhanafrog> ah "new call" that's pretty cool
[22:11] <jhanafrog> is it FOSS?
[22:12] <iheartubuntu> theres nothing to download? its all on the web?
[22:12] <jhanafrog> there's no way this will work if i can't get cheese to work
[22:12] <jhanafrog> that's my bet anyway
[22:12] <iheartubuntu> that would be EXCELLENT for Ubuntu Classroom
[22:13] <iheartubuntu> overview: http://www.bigbluebutton.org/overview
[22:13] <iheartubuntu> voice and camera, even screen sharing
[22:13] <jhanafrog> i'm joining a demo :D
[22:13] <iheartubuntu> chat
[22:13] <iheartubuntu> presentations area
[22:13] <iheartubuntu> very nice
[22:14] <iheartubuntu> how to install on ubuntu - http://code.google.com/p/bigbluebutton/wiki/InstallationUbuntu
[22:15] <iheartubuntu> akk i did not see them there. did they have any examples running?
[22:16] <akk> No, at least not when I was there. That would have made for a better booth.
[22:20] <iheartubuntu> on the verge of doing a fresh install on my computer im using right now. is it advisable to use a gparted to format the drive or even do a complete write to zero of my drive?
[22:20] <iheartubuntu> or is the tool on the ubuntu disc adequate
[22:20] <iheartubuntu> ive always just used the disc
[22:21] <akk> gparted is a bit easier, more visual, but the tool in the installer is fine.
[22:21] <akk> I usually use the installer if I'm installing anyway, gparted if I'm partitioning an external drive on a machine that's already running.
[22:25] <iheartubuntu> i was just curious if there are any benefits doing a complete wipe of the drive separate from what the livecd does (like speed up the drive since its wiped clean??)
[22:25]  * iheartubuntu asks the dumb questions
[22:26] <akk> none that I know of
[22:27] <akk> unless you have super seekrit data you're trying to erase
[22:28] <iheartubuntu> wow u can even call a phone # to do the conference on big blue button to get the audio
[23:12] <Guest28722> it looks like they weren't too keen on the idea of self-defense training at noisebridge
[23:13] <Guest28722> oops
[23:13] <jhanafrog> i guess they want to narrow down the center, to keep it relatively specialized, which i can understand
[23:13] <jhanafrog> but it's an interesting exploration to see how it would be received...
[23:13] <pleia2> it's pretty packed in there stuff-wise, not sure they'd have the room for it
[23:13] <jhanafrog> where there's a will there's a way
[23:13] <jhanafrog> but yeah, it isn't optimal
[23:14] <jhanafrog> when i was in san francisco i was training with some guy i met on craigslist
[23:14] <jhanafrog> oh yeah, you met him pleia2, i met up with him at that ubuntu hour
[23:15] <pleia2> ah, cool
[23:15] <pleia2> also, I just realized who you are, I can't keep track of your nicknames :)
[23:15] <jhanafrog> he's a shorter japanese dude
[23:16] <jhanafrog> just trying to keep everyone on their toes, either that, or keep things interesting :)
[23:19] <jhanafrog> now if i could only figure out why my nickname gets changed to guest, i should probably just reinstall irssi.
[23:19] <jhanafrog> oh right, big blue button, forgot
[23:30] <jhanafrog> well, it looks like the webcam is working in flash on bigbluebutton
[23:30] <jhanafrog> which is shocking
[23:30] <jhanafrog> (for dramatic effect)


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[00:48] <arabic> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:48] <arabic> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓v爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓v
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:49] <arabman> v爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓v
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓v
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓v爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓爻丕毓
[00:50] <arabman> 脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴
[00:50] <pangolin> gheraint, as you can see this is the issue
[00:50] <arabman> 脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴
[00:50] <gheraint> hmm
[00:50] <arabman> 脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴
[00:50] <arabman> 脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴
[00:51] <arabman> 脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴
[00:51] <arabman> 脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴
[00:51] <pangolin> gheraint, when I +q they quit and return with a diff IP
[00:51] <arabman> 脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴鲁脴搂脴鹿脴
[00:51] <gheraint> try +r for a while perhaps
[00:52] <pangolin> will try that for a while, thanks gheraint
[00:53] <gheraint> ok, glad I could help
[00:53] <Dax> +q $~a is better, though I'd probably just quiet webchat instead
[00:53] <pangolin> so +q *!*@gateway/webchat/*   ?
[00:54] <Dax> gateway/web/freenode/*
[00:54] <pangolin> ok, will see how it goes, thanks for the advice
[01:02] <Logan_> Can someone /cs ban *!*@wikia/majorthomme$##fix_your_connection please?
[01:02] <Logan_> jedivulcan keeps joining #ubuntu and quitting due to "Excess Flood."
[01:03] <Logan_> pangolin: The $a doesn't work in that case, I don't think...
[01:04] <Unit193> He's identified almost every time.
[01:04] <Logan_> The account is JediVulcan.
[01:04] <Logan_> You can see that he was able to join even after the ban was set.
[01:05] <pangolin> yup, thanks for the help :)
[01:05] <Logan_> Thanks pangolin. :-)
[01:06] <Unit193> pangolin: #ubuntu-irc
[01:21] <cprofitt> we have Syria in #ubuntuforums if we can get a op to help that would be appreciated
[01:24] <tsimpson> cprofitt: looks like staff are on it
[01:24] <jbroome> where now?
[01:26] <cprofitt> tsimpson: yep
[01:26] <cprofitt> apparently that is the word disgusting in Arabic
[01:27] <tsimpson> they were also spamming random characters/bytes
[01:28] <tsimpson> jbroome: I don't see them anywhere else
[01:29] <cprofitt> thanks guys
[01:29] <tsimpson> :)
[01:29] <Unit193> Just hit #ubuntu-beginners
[01:30] <Unit193> (Services have him)
[01:31] <jbroome> pwnt.
[01:32] <jbroome> i may have to run another irssi instance just for #ubuntu-*
[01:36] <jbroome> did he hit #Ubuntu at all?
[01:36] <pangolin> yes
[01:37] <jbroome> ah
[01:37] <pangolin> jbroome, could you please +q *!*@gateway/web/freenode/* #ubuntuforums
[01:43] <gry> !guidelines > yakko
[01:45] <bazhang> gooosss-fraba...
[02:49] <jtrucks> immortal on
[14:35] <bazhang> helenB is unpleasant
[14:36] <bazhang> bit of a history in the btracker
[14:58] <bazhang> yikes. he skipped maverick and natty
[14:58] <Pici> I don't know what he did.
[14:59] <bazhang> ouch!
[15:17] <bazhang> lovely
[15:18] <bazhang> WEdnesday, Thursday, Murphy'sDay
[15:54] <bazhang> siglar, hi
[16:03] <Unit193> .!dontzap is no  longer valid, dead link.
[16:03] <bazhang> !dontzap
[16:03] <bazhang> !forget dontzap
[16:07]  * Bishoo 賲爻丕亍 丕賱禺賷乇
[16:07] <bazhang> Bishoo, english here
[16:11] <Bishoo> Hi
[16:12] <bazhang> hi
[16:12] <Bishoo> U sbuk arbec
[16:12] <bazhang> Bishoo, no I dont
[16:12] <bazhang> Bishoo, try ##arabic
[16:13] <Bishoo> Ok
[16:13] <bazhang> Bishoo, do you need help with ubuntu?
[16:20] <bazhang> was that syria| from earlier?
[19:31] <oCean> Like in -ot is some bot that got removed earlier?