[12:37] <cpaelzer> slyon: didrocks: thanks for your rust feedback - I guess tomorrow we will sign off the general cleanup of Lucas, then I'll use the same approach to discuss these changes I proposed for rust including the amendment for your feedback
[12:40] <didrocks> ack
[12:42] <slyon> .
[14:50] <ddstreet> o/
[14:54] <teward>  /o
[14:58] <ddstreet> looks like rafaeldtinoco is up for chairing, if he's around
[14:58] <jawn-smith> o/
[14:59] <rafaeldtinoco> sorry, on a track in plumbers, wont be able to participate today (all week == plumbers)
[14:59] <ddstreet> ack, ok, have fun at plumbers! o/
[14:59] <rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: o/
[15:00] <ddstreet> i think slashd is around, but we still need 1 more
[15:00] <ddstreet> sil2100 unfortunately isn't in the channel
[15:00] <ddstreet> rbasak you around?
[15:00] <rbasak> o/
[15:00] <jawn-smith> I believe sil2100 is unavailable all week
[15:00] <ddstreet> hurray!
[15:00] <slashd> o/
[15:00] <halves> o/
[15:01] <ddstreet> unless anyone else wants to volunteer i can chair
[15:01] <ddstreet> ok we got quite a lot this mtg so let's get it started
[15:01] <ddstreet> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
[15:01] <meetingology> Meeting started at 15:01:41 UTC.  The chair is ddstreet.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[15:01] <meetingology> Available commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick
[15:02] <ddstreet> #topic Review of previous action items
[15:02] <ddstreet> ddstreet edubuntu seed <-> pkgset (carried over)
[15:02] <ddstreet> nope...i'm moving this one into the 'long-term' section
[15:02] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet move 'edubuntu seed/pkgset review' into long-term items section
[15:02] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet move 'edubuntu seed/pkgset review' into long-term items section
[15:03] <ddstreet> #subtopic rafaeldtinoco look at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2021-March/001635.html (carried over)
[15:03] <ddstreet> i'll carry this over, pretty sure he is busy
[15:03] <ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco look at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2021-March/001635.html (carried over)
[15:03] <meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco look at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2021-March/001635.html (carried over)
[15:04] <ddstreet> ok that's all the previous action items, and we have 2 applications today, plus proposals
[15:04] <ddstreet> i suspect we might not get to the proposals today, so let's do the applications first and see how long that takes
[15:05] <ddstreet> halves jawn-smith i'm not sure which to start with, you both have been deferred due to lack of quorum before, either of you have preference for going first?
[15:05] <jawn-smith> halves had their application on the agenda first
[15:05] <jawn-smith> So I'm happy to let them go first
[15:05] <ddstreet> thanks!
[15:06] <ddstreet> ok so we'll start with halves
[15:06] <halves> thanks, jawn-smith :)
[15:06] <jawn-smith> np!
[15:06] <ddstreet> #topic SRU Developer Applications
[15:06] <ddstreet> #subtopic Heitor Alves de Siqueira
[15:06] <ddstreet> halves welcome back, can you (re)introduce yourself?
[15:07] <rbasak> Here are the logs from the last meeting on this application: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2021/08/23/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t15:38
[15:07] <ddstreet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/halves/sru-developer
[15:07] <ddstreet> thanks and let me link that
[15:07] <halves> ddstreet sure!
[15:07] <ddstreet> #link https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2021/08/23/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t15:38
[15:07] <halves> Hello, everyone! I'm Heitor, and I'd like to (re)-apply for the SRU-developer role. My application page has examples of my work so far: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/halves/sru-developer
[15:08] <rbasak> halves: o/ have you reviewed my previous comments with a mentor?
[15:08] <halves> rbasak I have, yes. thank you for raising those last time
[15:09] <rbasak> halves: great, thanks! Who was it please, and can that person please confirm that they think you do have my previous concern straight in your mind now?
[15:09] <halves> rbasak I have discussed things both with ddstreet and slashd, but I think ddstreet would be my "main" sponsor on this topic
[15:10] <ddstreet> we did have a meeting on the topic, and discussed the various teams that are involved in the process - halves actually proactively had a list of the various teams ready to discuss with us
[15:11] <ddstreet> i feel he has a good understanding of all teams involved in the process now
[15:11] <rbasak> Great. Thanks!
[15:11] <rbasak> I have no further questions :)
[15:11] <ddstreet> teward slashd any q?
[15:11] <ddstreet> i have no q myself
[15:11] <teward> sorry i just had a phone call from work.  *reads back*
[15:12] <slashd> ddstreet, I have no questions.
[15:12] <teward> no questions from me, just the recommendation that if you have any questions ever, just ask.
[15:12] <teward> no questions from me, just the recommendation that if you have any questions ever, just ask halves.
[15:12] <ddstreet> sounds good, let's move to voting
[15:12] <teward> many of us developers are willing to assist where we can if you have questions or odd cases
[15:12] <ddstreet> #vote Grant Heitor Alves de Siqueira SRU Developer
[15:12] <meetingology> Please vote on: Grant Heitor Alves de Siqueira SRU Developer
[15:12] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, -1 or +0 in channel (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1|-1|+0 #channelname')
[15:13] <rbasak> +1
[15:13] <meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
[15:13] <teward> +1
[15:13] <meetingology> +1 received from teward
[15:13] <ddstreet> +1
[15:13] <meetingology> +1 received from ddstreet
[15:13] <ddstreet> slashd i think you may have dropped and missed the last bit, we jsut started voting
[15:14] <slashd> I did dropped and miss last bit, thanks
[15:14] <ddstreet> we're currently voting on halves for sru developer, we have three +1 so far
[15:15] <ddstreet> slashd did you need any backscroll repeated, or have any q?
[15:15] <slashd> +1 I worked with halves for years, and I have witnessed severals time his willingness to learn, and do things right + I have reviewed/sponsored many good quality SRU of him.
[15:15] <meetingology> +1 I worked with halves for years, and I have witnessed severals time his willingness to learn, and do things right + I have reviewed/sponsored many good quality SRU of him. received from slashd
[15:15] <ddstreet> #endvote
[15:15] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant Heitor Alves de Siqueira SRU Developer
[15:15] <meetingology> Votes for: 4, Votes against: 0, Abstentions: 0
[15:15] <meetingology> Motion carried
[15:15] <ddstreet> congrats!
[15:15] <jawn-smith> Congrats halves!
[15:16] <ddstreet> ok sorry to rush the mtg, but we do have a long agenda, so let's move on
[15:16] <halves> thanks, all!
[15:16] <ddstreet> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
[15:17] <ddstreet> #suptopic William 'jawn-smith' Wilson
[15:17] <ddstreet> hello and welcome jawn-smith o/
[15:17] <jawn-smith> hello, and thanks! o/
[15:17] <ddstreet> can you introduce yourself?
[15:17] <ddstreet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jawn-smith/CoreDeveloperApplication
[15:17] <jawn-smith> Sure, my name is William, and many people know me as 'jawn-smith'
[15:17] <jawn-smith> My core developer application can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jawn-smith/CoreDeveloperApplication
[15:18] <jawn-smith> I work on the Ubuntu Foundations team. My responsibilities include Raspberry Pi work, RISC-V, go toolchain, and the ubuntu-image tool
[15:19] <rbasak> o/
[15:20] <jawn-smith> I think that's a good summary for an introduction, but I'm happy to answer any questions you have
[15:20] <ddstreet> yep please feel free to ask questions rbasak and other members
[15:20] <rbasak> Your endorsers mention that you haven't done any transitions yet. That's OK, but can you tell me what a transition is please, and very roughly (no major detail) outline what is involved?
[15:21] <jawn-smith> Actually since getting that feedback from my endorsers I have volunteered to lead the transition of golang-defaults from 1.16 to 1.17 as part of the impish release
[15:22] <jawn-smith> I have done baseline rebuilds of all packages that appear in "reverse-depends -b src:golang-defaults" as well as rebuilding them with Go 1.17 in a PPA
[15:22] <jawn-smith> I then identified 19 packages that had new failures introduced by Go 1.17, and fixed about 6 of them during a +1 maintenance shift last week
[15:23] <jawn-smith> I also created a feature freeze exception request for moving golang-defaults to 1.17, which has been approved: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/golang-defaults/+bug/1943502
[15:23] <jawn-smith> So while this transition is still in progress, I feel that it has allowed me to gain a pretty good understanding of how to work on transitions
[15:26] <ddstreet> i'm still reading myself, and assume others are still reading, so if anyone else has more q please jump in
[15:26] <rbasak> Could you tell me what a transition is please, and very roughly (no major detail) outline what is involved?
[15:27] <bdmurray> rbasak: was his previous answer insufficient?
[15:28] <jawn-smith> rbasak: would you like me to expand on my previous messages explaining what I did for the Go transition?
[15:28] <rbasak> Sorry I didn't think you had tackled my question.
[15:28] <rbasak> Could you go more general please? What's a transition in general, in broad terms?
[15:29] <jawn-smith> Sure
[15:31] <jawn-smith> The transitions I have been exposed to on the foundations team are related to upgrading toolchain source packages. They involve doing test rebuilds of all the build dependencies of the toolchains, as well as resolving autopkgtest failures.
[15:32] <jawn-smith> In addition, according to https://wiki.debian.org/RenamingPackages
[15:32] <jawn-smith> A transition would more broadly include using some "dummy" package to point to a new version that has replaced the original package
[15:32] <jawn-smith> Similar to using golang-defaults to point to Go 1.17
[15:35] <rbasak> How would you identify that an upload inadvertenly triggers a transition?
[15:35] <jawn-smith> If I were to put my understanding of transitions into a very brief summary, I would say that it is using "dummy" packages to update dependencies of other packages, and making sure that the impacts of that change are handled
[15:36] <jawn-smith> rbasak: do you mean checking before the upload that a transition wouldn't be triggered?
[15:37] <rbasak> Right - let's assume that you're making a point to check that specifically. What would set off alarm bells in the simplest case?
[15:38] <jawn-smith> If the output of "reverse-depends -b" contained a large number of packages, that would set off alarm bells
[15:38] <rbasak> OK, and now that you're looking in detail, what would determine if a transition will be triggered by your upload or not?
[15:40] <jawn-smith> If I did see a large number of packages in "reverse-depends -b" I would do some rebuilds of those packages in a PPA. If some of those packages had new failures to build, I would know that a transition would be triggered
[15:41] <jawn-smith> I would also be happy to ask the community in ubuntu-devel, as I know when to ask questions :)
[15:41] <rbasak> :)
[15:41] <bdmurray> I can confirm that!
[15:41] <rbasak> It's good that you know to ask for help :)
[15:41] <rbasak> I'm not sure you really understand the packaging model here though, at least in how it relates to transitions.
[15:42] <rbasak> Let's move on from transitions.
[15:42] <rbasak> Have you done any SRUs? I don't see any references on your application page.
[15:42] <jawn-smith> That does seem like an oversight on my application
[15:42] <jawn-smith> I have done plenty of SRU's
[15:42] <jawn-smith> I will dig up some links
[15:43] <bdmurray> bug 1891952
[15:43] <rbasak> Thanks!
[15:43] <bdmurray> bug 1902025 also is good
[15:43] <jawn-smith> As part of my RISC-V work I SRU'd u-boot and u-boot-menu to focal to enable booting on the Unmatched
[15:44] <rbasak> I agree those links demonstrate that you know what SRUs are and how they work :)
[15:44] <jawn-smith> Okay great, would you like more links?
[15:44] <rbasak> No more links on SRUs thanks - unless others have questions?
[15:45] <rbasak> I have more questions though.
[15:45] <jawn-smith> ask away :)
[15:45] <rbasak> Let's say that you want to upload something but another core dev has a technical objection to your approach. How would you seek to resolve this situation?
[15:46] <rbasak> (assume you've already talked to them and you respectfully agree that you're at an impasse)
[15:47] <jawn-smith> In that case I would seek input from more core devs.
[15:47] <jawn-smith> If the majority of core devs agreed with the other person's approach, I would be happy to tackle the problem that way
[15:48] <rbasak> What if there's no clear consensus?
[15:50] <jawn-smith> At that point I would try to find someone who would be considered a subject matter expert on the topic and defer to their opinion. For example, if this was an issue with a Raspberry Pi upload I would defer to waveform
[15:51] <rbasak> OK, that seems reasonable. Do you know of any specific escalation route for decision making in Ubuntu if consensus cannot be reached?
[15:53] <jawn-smith> I suppose it would depend on the package (i.e. an issue with Go I would likely submit an upstream Bug on their GitHub). But if I wasn't sure I would definitely ask for help :)
[15:55] <ddstreet> o/ i have some q when rbasak is done
[15:55] <rbasak> I have just one more question I think, for now at least.
[15:55] <rbasak> jawn-smith: can you tell me what a seed is?
[15:57] <jawn-smith> Yes! At a most basic level a seed is a list of packages
[15:58] <jawn-smith> They logically separate out certain packages based on their importance, functionality, etc
[15:58] <jawn-smith> For example, the boot seed contains the packages needed to boot an image
[15:58] <jawn-smith> The desktop seed contains the packages that are needed to run a desktop environment
[16:00] <jawn-smith> Does that sufficiently answer your question?
[16:00] <rbasak> So libx11-6 is a package needed to run a desktop environment, but I don't think it appears in the desktop seed. Why not?
[16:02] <jawn-smith> I would guess that it's installed during the desktop installation process, but that might be another question to ask the community
[16:03] <rbasak> OK thanks. No more questions.
[16:03] <ddstreet> ok i have a few q more focused on sru things
[16:04] <ddstreet> you have some work sru'ing u-boot, e.g. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/u-boot/2021.01+dfsg-3ubuntu0~20.04.1
[16:04] <ddstreet> in that changelog, could you tell me if anyhting is missing? if so, why, and did this follow the 'normal' sru process that most other packages do?
[16:05] <jawn-smith> Let me look at the change log really quickly
[16:07] <jawn-smith> To answer your question about whether this followed the 'normal' SRU process: I would say no
[16:07] <ddstreet> how, and why, was it different?
[16:08] <jawn-smith> usually when doing an SRU I would want to pull in the absolute minimal change set to fix a big in the stable release
[16:08] <jawn-smith> but with u-boot we did a more wholesale backport of the package
[16:09] <jawn-smith> This was different because this was for hardware enablement. When doing SRU's for hardware enablement it can work a bit differently where total backports are allowed
[16:09] <ddstreet> how do you know if a total backport is allowed?
[16:11] <jawn-smith> I know that in the case of hardware enablement a total backport is allowed. I believe there are some other scenarios, but I don't recall off the top of my head
[16:12] <jawn-smith> as for the changelog, there may be some bug numbers missing, and I've gotten mixed opinions on whether or not to include the hirsute changelogs when doing a total backport like this
[16:13] <jawn-smith> fun fact, I actually spent a while doing a minimal change SRU of u-boot only to be told to do a total backport :)
[16:13] <ddstreet> ok thanks. for the sru process, part of that is adding a sru template, can you list the sections of the template and a very brief comment on what someone should put into the section?
[16:13] <jawn-smith> Yes, I have done quite a few of these templates
[16:14] <jawn-smith> Impact: the impact of the bug. This section should justify why the SRU is needed
[16:15] <jawn-smith> Test Case: detailed steps for how to recreate the issue. This will be used for verification
[16:15] <jawn-smith> Regression potential: where things could go horribly wrong. This is used to help other developers in case things do go wrong
[16:16] <jawn-smith> Other info: anything else that is useful that you think people should know
[16:16] <ddstreet> for lp #1925267 what do you think of the regression potential section
[16:17] <jawn-smith> Ah I see that this bug is filed against both u-boot and u-boot-menu
[16:18] <jawn-smith> And the regression potential really only covers u-boot-menu
[16:18] <ddstreet> do you think the comment is enough for that section? anything missing from it?
[16:18] <jawn-smith> and may even be misleading to make testers believe that u-boot does not need to be tested
[16:18] <jawn-smith> From the regression potential section?
[16:18] <ddstreet> yes
[16:19] <jawn-smith> Yes I do think a list of all hardware using u-boot in focal would be great
[16:20] <ddstreet> for someone looking at the bug without previous context, do you think they would understand the most likely possible regression outcome from reading that section?
[16:20] <jawn-smith> I do not. I think explaining what a regression would look like (failure to boot) would be helpful
[16:21] <ddstreet> ok thanks. looking at lp: 1922117 now,
[16:22] <ddstreet> that bug obviously went into the devel release, so didn't include any sru template. do you think a sru is needed for devel bugs - either in general and/or this specific case?
[16:22] <jawn-smith> I'm looking at it now as well
[16:24] <jawn-smith> I do think an SRU template could never hurt
[16:24] <jawn-smith> I see no reason to not include one, even in a devel release
[16:24] <jawn-smith> That seems to be an oversight on my part for not including it
[16:24] <ddstreet> sure, i was actually thinking more of an actual sru
[16:24] <ddstreet> in general, and/or in this bug, is a sru needed?
[16:24] <jawn-smith> Right that's what I meant
[16:24] <ddstreet> not a sru template
[16:25] <jawn-smith> oh I'm sorry, slightly distracted in a meeting
[16:25] <ddstreet> yes, my apologies for this going over time :(
[16:25] <ddstreet> sometimes these run long
[16:26] <jawn-smith> In that specific case I don't think an SRU was needed as it was a change in a kernel ABI that was not present in the kernel in the stable release
[16:26] <jawn-smith> it was caused by* a kernal ABI change that is
[16:26] <ddstreet> even if using the HWE kernel?
[16:27] <jawn-smith> I'd have to check
[16:27] <ddstreet> ok thanks. just 1 more q from me, sorry again for going so lonmg
[16:27] <ddstreet> in your sponsorship list https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=William+%27jawn-smith%27+Wilson&sponsoree_search=name
[16:27] <ddstreet> i see the large majority is from other members of foundations
[16:28] <ddstreet> there are a couple non-foundations sponsors, but only a few
[16:28] <ddstreet> have you worked much with core-devs outside of the foundations team?
[16:28] <jawn-smith> I've worked with a few others, LocutusOfBorg, bryceh, seb
[16:29] <jawn-smith> (sorry for the pings)
[16:29] <jawn-smith> and I worked with ginggs a bit before he was on the team
[16:29] <ddstreet> do you think they are familiar enough to provide endorsements, like the ones from your foundations team members?
[16:29] <jawn-smith> In addition I've had a lot of non-foundations devs help me with test re-clicks (only after verifying they were needed of course!)
[16:30] <jawn-smith> I do not think I've worked with them enough to ask them for endorsements
[16:30] <ddstreet> ok thanks. no more q from me.
[16:30] <ddstreet> rbasak slashd teward sorry for going so long, any q from any of you?
[16:30] <ddstreet> i hope we didn't lose any of them
[16:30] <slashd> Due to time and good questions already asked, I'm fine to go and vote.
[16:31] <teward> i'm still here, no questions from me that weren't already asked
[16:31] <rbasak> No more questions from me thanks. I'm ready to vote.
[16:31] <bdmurray> One thing jawn-smith did do was try to use the sponsoring queue but as we all know that queue is rather long. So when things weren't sponsored the Foundations team ended up sponsoring them.
[16:31] <ddstreet> ok let's vote then
[16:32] <ddstreet> #vote Grant William 'jawn-smith' Wilson ubuntu-core-developer
[16:32] <meetingology> Please vote on: Grant William 'jawn-smith' Wilson ubuntu-core-developer
[16:32] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, -1 or +0 in channel (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1|-1|+0 #channelname')
[16:32] <bdmurray> So I'd keep that in mind when consider who the sponsors were.
[16:32] <rbasak> -1
[16:32] <rbasak> Your technical work and strong endorsements look good. But I'm not sure you have yet built up a mental model of how everything fits together. I'd like for you to build a better understanding of how some of these things operate at a general level. Detail is good but not a requirement here - just enough that you know what they are so you can identify them well enough that you will be able to know
[16:32] <meetingology> -1 received from rbasak
[16:32] <rbasak> when and where to go for help when required. I very much appreciate your answer that you will ask for help when needed, but I was unable to become confident that you will know when that occurs, and where to go.
[16:32] <rbasak> For example, I was looking for you to say that: the simplest case of a transition is that when a reverse build depends is rebuilt, it ends up with different binary dependencies; seeds are at the top level, and expanded recursively according to their dependencies, or alternatively I would have been happy to be provided a link to the docs; the Technical Board (as a last resort) is the escalation
[16:32] <rbasak> point for core devs on technical disagreements (see the CoC section on "Value decisiveness, clarity and consensus" for more about Ubuntu's principles here). I don't think I require perfect answers to everything, but I don't think you answers in combination meets my "general understanding" bar.
[16:32] <rbasak> I have previously written up a description of what I'm looking to see. I hope this is helpful for you to understand what I'm looking for, and how to get there: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobieBasak/DMB/CoreDev
[16:32] <rbasak> So, please keep up the excellent work, but for now, I think it'd be appropriate for you to continue working with mentors, instead of uploading to the archive unsupervised. I hope I've given you a clear path to getting a +1 from me here. If you need any clarification or have any questions, please ask, and I look forward to seeing you reapply once you have addressed my concerns.
[16:35] <ddstreet> -1 most of your technical work seems good to me, but I'm concerned about SRU work; in particular I'm worried that most of your experience has been with the devel release, and most SRU work is with "special" packages that don't follow the normal SRU rules. I also am concerned that most of your experience, and all your endorsements, are from fellow team members on the foundations team. I'd like to see more endorsements from non-foundations
[16:35] <ddstreet> people, and more SRU work, especially difficult SRU work.
[16:35] <meetingology> -1 most of your technical work seems good to me, but I'm concerned about SRU work; in particular I'm worried that most of your experience has been with the devel release, and most SRU work is with "special" packages that don't follow the normal SRU rules. I also am concerned that most of your experience, and all your endorsements, are from fellow team members on the foundations team. I'd like to see more endorsements from non-founda
[16:37] <teward> -1 for the same reasons that have been indicated by Robie and Dan - namely, I'm concerned about SRU work and that most of the experience you've had is in devel, and as such limited SRU and non-devel experience, and the concerns Robie had with the transitions knowledge.  I agree with Robie as well you should continue working with mentors and sponsors for now rather than getting unsupervised upload access.
[16:37] <meetingology> -1 for the same reasons that have been indicated by Robie and Dan - namely, I'm concerned about SRU work and that most of the experience you've had is in devel, and as such limited SRU and non-devel experience, and the concerns Robie had with the transitions knowledge.  I agree with Robie as well you should continue working with mentors and sponsors for now rather than getting unsupervised upload access. received from teward
[16:37] <slashd> -1 not at this time, but I think you have enough rationale provided by rbasak and ddstreet to know on what to work on.
[16:37] <meetingology> -1 not at this time, but I think you have enough rationale provided by rbasak and ddstreet to know on what to work on. received from slashd
[16:37] <ddstreet> #endvote
[16:37] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant William 'jawn-smith' Wilson ubuntu-core-developer
[16:37] <meetingology> Votes for: 0, Votes against: 4, Abstentions: 0
[16:38] <meetingology> Motion denied
[16:38] <jawn-smith> Thank you for the consideration and feedback!
[16:38] <ddstreet> sorry jawn-smith but I do encourage reapplying in the futute!
[16:38] <slashd> indeed ^
[16:39] <ddstreet> ok thanks everyone, there's still proposals from ML discussion, but i think we're well over time and should defer anything more to the next meeting
[16:39] <ddstreet> unless there are any objections, i'll end the mtg
[16:39] <teward> no objections here
[16:39] <rbasak> Action for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_an_unsuccessful_application please
[16:39] <ddstreet> right thank you rbasak
[16:39] <slashd> thanks you all
[16:39] <ddstreet> i can take that
[16:39] <rbasak> Thanks!
[16:39] <rbasak> (and for chairing)
[16:40] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet announce successful and unsuccessful applications
[16:40] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet announce successful and unsuccessful applications
[16:40] <ddstreet> thanks all! o/
[16:40] <ddstreet> #endmeeting
[16:40] <meetingology> Meeting ended at 16:40:24 UTC.  Minutes at https://new.ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2021/ubuntu-meeting.2021-09-20-15.01.moin.txt


[05:13] <philip__> What's a good DVD maker for LUbuntu 10.10?
[05:24] <philip__> Hello?
[05:27] <head_victim> philip__: xfburn is the default application in Lubuntu
[05:28] <philip__> How do I convert a AVI file to DVD so I can use it on all DVD players?
[05:29] <head_victim> philip__: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DVDAuthoring has a few different options
[05:31] <philip__> I'm gonna give: QDVDAuthor a try
[05:31] <philip__> Thanks for your help Head_Victim.
[05:31] <head_victim> philip__: no problems, let us know how it goes
[05:31] <head_victim> I personally haven't used any of them sorry
[05:31] <philip__> Downloading packages now.
[05:32] <philip__> I used to use Windows for that, but I had to buy a new harddrive as my drive went derp... So I needed a Operating system.
[05:32] <philip__> I thought I'd Give Lubuntu a try.
[05:33] <head_victim> Ah ok, good to hear, that's how I started, just swapping programs from windows to linux one at a time. Now I have no need for windows at all.
[05:33] <philip__> :)
[05:33] <philip__> Had to borrow moms lappy to download it of course haha
[05:34] <head_victim> Hah yeah but once you have it you can use it as much as you like
[05:37] <philip__> This PC Is 6 yrs old, I used to use regular Ubuntu but, Noticed GNOME was giving me 70% cpu spikes
[05:40] <philip__> I was like GOD now Gnome sucks haha
[05:40] <head_victim> Yeah I find anything P4 or older Lubuntu is the way to go (I'm currently on a p4 3.2 prescott cpu and it's great!)
[05:41] <head_victim> I have used it to good effect on a 2.4 celeron as well
[05:41] <philip__> I'm on AMD Sempron 3000+ 1.8GHZ 1GB ram 256MB video ram Nvidia geforce FX 5200 AGP8x 160GB machine.
[05:41] <head_victim> It should run great then
[05:41] <philip__> I'm on it right now so I know it does.
[05:41] <philip__> Lol.
[05:42] <head_victim> I'm a bit impatient, if things take a while to do I don't like it so the normal Ubuntu made me want to buy a new computer. Then I found Lubuntu and it saved me buying an upgrade as it worked for what I wanted as well as I wanted.
[05:42] <philip__> Yeah I'm still looking on buying a new PC though lol.
[05:44] <philip__> What you think of my 6 yr old machine?
[05:44] <head_victim> Hah yeah fair enough, this is my irc/web browsing machine. I have a quad core with 10gb of ram for anything that really needs grunt
[05:44] <philip__> I use this thing for Everything
[05:45]  * philip__ hopes LibIMobile get updated soon.
[05:46] <philip__> I have a IPod
[05:46] <head_victim> Ah I bought an iriver, it uses ogg and flac and I can just copy/paste music.
[05:47] <philip__> I wanted a portable device I could use as a computer and the iPod fit that
[05:47] <head_victim> Cool, as long as it does what you need. I'm about to upgrade my phone so that will do that I think. The iriver I mainly got as a digital radio.
[05:48] <philip__> Wanna hear a good song?
[05:49] <philip__> Atleast I think it's good lol.
[05:49] <head_victim> Heh I have to go get ready for a BBQ but if you want to post a link I'll probably listen later, also if you are liking Lubuntu and want to hang around and chat we have an "offtopic" channel where team members just hang around and chat - #lubuntu-offtopic :D
[05:50] <philip__> Posted in PM.
[05:50] <philip__> Just so you know :)
[05:51] <philip__> Have fun!
[06:01] <philip__> I would like to know how to setup my Windows keys on my keyboard, to make the menu pop open.
[06:54] <philip__> So far I converted the video to DVD fine I'm hoping :)
[06:54] <philip__> Burning it to Disk to test it
[08:55] <philip__> I was wondering, have you guys thought about maybe Including Opera browser?
[09:26] <bioterror> philip__, opera is closed source
[09:26] <bioterror> it's against the ubuntu principles
[12:28] <ct529> hi! I have a problem in lubuntu .... when I launch the use admin tool it just hangs there forever. the gui start, the little clock mouse courier starts, but it never stops .... anyone had this problem before? how do I add users manually?
[12:29] <bioterror> "sudo adduser" in terminal
[12:29] <ct529> bioterror: ok, thanks .... I thought it was useradd ....
[12:29] <bioterror> ;)
[12:30] <bioterror> both should work, I think
[12:30] <ct529> bioterror: do you know the source of the problem i am experiencing? have you had any similar problem?
[12:30] <bioterror> nope, I have not
[12:30] <ct529> bioterror: there is a useradd
[12:31] <ct529> bioterror: does adduser automatically add the users to the sudoers?
[12:31] <bioterror> nope
[12:31] <bioterror> so the user settings is not working for you?
[12:31] <ct529> bioterror: nope .... :-( .... is there a way to reinstall it?
[12:32] <ct529> bioterror: if I try to uninstall, i am worried about breaking a good installation
[12:32] <bioterror> sudo apt-get purge users-admin
[12:32] <bioterror> sudo apt-get install lubuntu-desktop
[12:33] <bioterror> should do the trick
[12:33] <ct529> bioterror: mmmm .... wait and I try again (I am installing a groupof pacakges)
[12:33] <ct529> bioterror: I have finally solved all the kernel errors, thanks to your help as well
[12:34] <ct529> bioterror: it is quite fast now
[12:34] <bioterror> yeah, Lubuntu is nice, even if you're having a decent computer
[12:35] <ct529> bioterror: well, this is quite old actually .... and I had to do lot of tweaking :-)
[12:35] <ct529> bioterror: nohz=off ipv6.disable=1 acpi=off at the moment, plus blacklisting some kernel modules that were giving a lot of grief
[12:36] <bioterror> ahhh, I gave you those two ;)
[12:36] <ct529> bioterror: there is still the user-admin problem to solve
[12:36] <bioterror> you can edit /etc/group with editor ;)
[12:36] <bioterror> vi, vim, nano
[12:36] <bioterror> what ever is your favourite
[12:37] <ct529> bioterror: yes I know, but this is my wife laptop ....
[12:38] <ct529> bioterror: I do not want to her any grief with text editors
[12:38] <bioterror> add her account (or yours) to adm admin and what was there
[12:38] <bioterror> oh, I think you dont have to edit much those user settings
[12:38] <ct529> bioterror: yes, I hope .... at the moment I do everything manually ....the sudoers group is adm or admin?
[12:39] <bioterror> hmm
[12:39] <bioterror> # Members of the admin group may gain root privileges
[12:39] <bioterror> %admin ALL=(ALL) ALL
[12:40] <ct529> bioterror: I have actually been naughty .... I gave the root permission to login as root .... :-D
[12:40] <ct529> bioterror: I can cope with all this sude stuff on all machines I use
[12:40] <bioterror> it's okay to have a password for root, if you have to go to recovery mode or something
[12:40] <bioterror> saved me couple of times
[12:41] <ct529> I logged in graphical mode in root .... running lxde .... :-D
[12:41] <bioterror> why? :P
[12:42] <ct529> bioterror: because lubuntu does not offer my the option to start in console mode
[12:42] <bioterror> hmmm
[12:42] <bioterror> remove lxdm and use startx
[12:42] <bioterror> ^___^
[12:42] <ct529> bioterror: oh ok .... better not, it is my wife's laptop
[12:45] <ct529> bioterror: apt-get purge users-admin returns unable to locate pacakge users-admin
[12:45] <ct529> bioterror: where did you find the %admin ALL=(ALL) ALL? in the sudoers file?
[12:45] <bioterror> right
[12:45] <bioterror> ct529, yeah that's defined in the /etc/sudoers
[12:46] <ct529> bioterror: yes ....
[12:46] <ct529> bioterror: ok .... users-admin is part of gnome-system-tools
[12:47] <bioterror> "nice" ;)
[12:48] <ct529> bioterror: apt-gte install gnome-system-tools --reinstall wll do it :-D
[12:49] <bioterror> I'm a fan of purge
[12:49] <bioterror> as I want to get rid of possible failed configuration files
[12:49] <ct529> bioterror: me too ....
[12:49] <ct529> bioterror: indeed the problem is still there
[12:52] <ct529> bioterror: now, colossal purge
[12:56] <ct529> bioterror: I do not understand why it is offering me to boot in kde, openbox and gnome when they are not at all installed .... :-(
[12:56] <bioterror> w ha  t?
[12:56] <bioterror> you mean the lxdm?
[12:57] <bioterror> graphical login screen?
[12:58] <ct529> bioterror: yes
[13:08] <bioterror> sudo apt-get remove kde\*
[13:08] <bioterror> ;)
[13:08] <bioterror> if you have infected your computer with KDE
[13:09] <ct529> bioterror: there is no kde of course .... it is a vanilla installation of lubuntu .... from scratch
[13:09] <ct529> bioterror: or gnome or openbox
[13:11] <bioterror> oh okay
[13:14] <ct529> bioterror: do you recommend installing lxde-common and lxde-core?
[13:14] <bioterror> those should be installed? ;)
[13:15] <bioterror> hmmm
[13:15] <bioterror> wait a second :D
[13:15] <ct529> bioterror:they are not
[13:15] <bioterror> I just checked dpkg -L :D
[13:16] <ct529> what do you think?
[13:17] <bioterror> no you dont need them, as those are not dependencies in lubuntu-desktop
[13:25] <ct529> bioterror: last question .... how do you use an external monitor with lxde?
[13:26] <bioterror> I use only laptop :D
[13:26] <ct529> bioterror: my wife has a nice 19" external to use with her laptop
[13:26] <bioterror> she doesnt have a docking station?
[13:26] <bioterror> or port replicator
[13:27] <bioterror> how about xrandr
[13:28] <bioterror> DVI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
[13:28] <bioterror> TV1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
[13:40] <ct529> bioterror: yes, I am uxing xrandr but the external monitor does not seem to like it .... no signal it says
[13:40] <ct529> no docking station ....
[13:41] <ct529> bioterror: I would like the "big desktop mode" with the laptop desktop as primary desktop
[13:41] <ct529> bioterror: where on earth os xorg.conf on lubuntu?
[13:57] <bioterror> theres no such thing
[13:57] <bioterror> it's dun with udev if I remember right
[13:58] <bioterror> you have xorg.conf.d or something
[13:58] <bioterror> but ofcourse you can make one and it will overwrite the "probing"
[13:59] <ct529> bioterror: thanks ....
[14:51] <lubunturulz> me want 64 bit lubuntu so bat
[14:52] <lubunturulz> aneybodeh 64 bti luunut distro share? D:
[14:53] <lubunturulz> pehliease?
[14:53] <BWMerlin> lubunturulz: there was a post/forum somewhere about that
[14:53] <BWMerlin> i think what the person did was get the netboot ubuntu cd
[14:53] <BWMerlin> the 64bit version
[14:53] <BWMerlin> and then pulled down lubuntu that way so it had to pull down the 64 bit files etc
[14:54] <BWMerlin> but yes i would also like a UEFI and 64bit support version of lubuntu
[14:57] <lubunturulz> ah, thanks for the info
[15:13] <wolfpack> biote/join ubuntu
[15:14] <bioterror> hi! ;D
[15:40] <jondot> hi all, is there a way i can unload lxde once i don't need it anymore to save memory?
[16:49] <mrojas6996> Hola
[16:49] <mrojas6996> ¿nadie sabe donde encuentro un canal de lubuntu en español?
[16:52] <D33R> mrojas6996: Hola, exíste uno, pero nunca tienes gente online
[16:52] <mrojas6996> entiendo, entonces significa que debo ir al canal de Ubuntu en español
[16:52] <mrojas6996> gracias!
[17:31] <leszek> hi
[18:31] <aitiba> hi
[18:32] <aitiba> which are the minimal requeriments to use the last stable version of lubuntu?
[18:41] <jmarsden> aitiba: See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements for the official ones
[18:54] <aitiba> jmarsden thanks
[19:30] <phillw> ;unban MH0
[19:30] <phillw> ;part
[19:30] <DragonEyes> Error.  The syntax for that command is: part <channel>
[19:30] <phillw> ;part #lubuntu
[19:51] <phillw> ;up
[19:53] <phillw> ;unban MH0*!*@*
[19:53] <phillw> ;unban evilMH0*!*@*
[19:53] <phillw> ;lurk
[19:53] <phillw> ;part #lubuntu
[19:58] <kob>  hi all, anyone running TOR ? I'd need a running bridge to connect to the network
[20:01] <jmarsden> kob: I don't think you'll find many Lubuntu users using Tor; the really security-paranoid tend to run a hardened OS such as OpenBSD or whatever... Lubuntu is more for folsk who older PCs or who like a lightweight GUI.  But I could be wrong.
[20:03] <kob> ok
[20:03] <kob> thx for the info
[20:03] <kob> I'm just trying my luck here and there
[20:04] <jmarsden> No problem.  I have used Tor, but am not doing so at the moment and I have not used it with Lubuntu.
[20:55] <philip__> So I burned a DVD with Lubuntu, but there's green splotches in the video... that comes up every once in awhile.
[20:56] <philip__> QDVDAuthor/brasaro
[21:52] <jmarsden> philip__: Does the video playback fine when played directly from the original file on hard disk?
[21:52] <philip__> Yup.
[21:53] <philip__> The DVD Plays fine but gets the green pixels once in awhile.
[21:53] <jmarsden> Did QDVDAuthor have to do some kind of video encoding format conversion before you burned the DVD?
[21:53] <philip__> Yes.
[21:53] <philip__> Had to convert it to DVD folders before I could make it playable on all DVD players.
[21:54] <jmarsden> OK, so most likely that is what added the issue.  If you format convert and store that converted file on the hard drive, does *that* play back fine from the hard drive?
[21:54] <philip__> yeah.
[21:55] <jmarsden> Strange... if the video is fine in the converted file format, it should be fine on the DVD too.  Brasero doesn't change anything, as far as I know.
[21:56] <philip__> Maybe it was a user glitch, first time using QDVDAuthor.
[22:03] <philip__> hehe.
[22:41] <philip__> Welcome back Phillw.
[22:54] <philip__> How do I install the new LibIMobiledevice (For IPod touch) In Lubuntu?
[23:04] <jmarsden> philip__: Has that LibIMobiledevice been packaged for Ubuntu yet?  Seems strange capitalization...?
[23:04] <philip__> Yes it has. I think so.
[23:04] <philip__> I need it for my IPod touch 4G 4.2.1 IOS.
[23:11] <jmarsden> Then you can install it using Synaptic or whatever package manager you prefer.  search for it in there and then mark it for installation, and ask Synaptic to do it :)
[23:12] <philip__> The only one available doesn't work. I tried it.
[23:12] <jmarsden> "doesn't work" is pretty generic... did you get any error messages, did you file a bug report?
[23:13] <philip__> Nah it just fails to download.
[23:15] <jmarsden> OK, can you do    sudo apt-get install LibMobiledevice     and pastebin me the output?
[23:15] <jmarsden> By the way, there is a big difference between "it doesn't work" and "I can't get it to install" :)
[23:16] <philip__> Well the version that's currently available isn't supporting IOS 4.2.1
[23:18] <jmarsden> OK.  So you have two choices (a) wait for the newer version to be packaged or (b) package it yourself and install it :)
[23:18] <philip__> How do i package?
[23:18] <jmarsden> Maybe also (c) persuade someone else to package the new version and then install their resulting package :)
[23:19] <jmarsden> You'd have a lot of learning to do... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete


[01:33] <willwh> hey guys
[01:33] <willwh> all the chatter died down I see
[01:33] <willwh> quick question though..... :)
[01:34] <MagicFab> willwh, ask away
[01:35] <willwh> well - I am using a real simple bash script atm to scrape pages for image links.
[01:35] <willwh> I have to do this for all sorts of sites
[01:35] <willwh> so, sometimes, it'll be full paths, sometimes relative, etc.
[01:35] <willwh> once sec let me throw it somewhere you can see it :]
[01:35] <willwh> I'm looking for tips for expanding it
[01:36] <willwh> complete tangent - anyone tried irssi-xmpp? :]
[01:37] <willwh> I <3 my irssi setup, using screen
[01:38] <MagicFab> sorry, I thought your question was about Ubuntu. Perhaps someone else can help.
[01:38] <willwh> :)
[01:38] <willwh> It's not
[01:38] <MagicFab> I've had my share of scripting this week ;)
[01:38] <willwh> thanks for the offer ofc
[01:38] <willwh> I'm sure you have!
[01:39] <willwh> mine is a really simple 2 liner atm
[01:39] <willwh> but I'd love to really fill it out
[01:39] <willwh> http://home.willskills.com/~willwh/crunch.txt
[01:39] <willwh> which allows me to just paste a URL and throw out any line containing http:// (and grep the string 'paris')
[01:39] <willwh> in this case
[01:40] <willwh> and I can just keep pasting and getting output
[01:46] <bregma> willwh, what else do you want to do with your script?
[01:50] <willwh> bregma: I guess I'd like to check for any <img* links
[01:50] <willwh> if it's a relative path, perhaps print the whole version of the link out
[01:50] <willwh> or just print it, if it's full path
[01:51] <willwh> i.e. links to images, as well as images on the page
[01:52] <willwh> someone I was speaking to in channel a while back (I'd have to grep my logs)
[01:52] <willwh> was going down the perl route - apparently a library that's pretty good for what I want to do
[01:52] <willwh> I'd like to stick to bash purely for learning :)
[01:53] <bregma> bash doesn't do good complex text handling
[01:53] <willwh> ah
[01:53] <bregma> python would probably be ideal, perl if you have no other choice
[01:53] <willwh> ok.
[01:54] <bregma> the classic approach was to use awk for the text processing in a shell script
[01:55] <willwh> yes
[01:55] <willwh> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5927031/python-get-image-link-from-html - I guess this is an ok primer
[01:55] <willwh> kinda of similar to what I want to do
[01:59] <bregma> yeah, xpath is the technology you want for extracting stuff from xhtml, and maybe well-formed html
[02:00] <bregma> not my realm of expertise, though
[04:25] <dscassel> willwh: I've used BeautifulSoup (mentioned in your link).
[04:25] <dscassel> Works well, I've found.
[04:25] <dscassel> Mostly if you know where the element is in the tree.  You might need a bit of code to find it, if there's not an easy API call
[06:03] <willwh> dscassel: thank you
[06:03] <willwh> I've read though that it's not being maintained any longer?
[06:03] <willwh> lxml looks like it might do what I want too
[12:31] <BluesKaj> Howdy
[22:23] <dscassel> willwh: Whatever works. :)
[22:24] <dscassel> I think the Gnome people might be losing their minds.
[22:24] <dscassel> But then, maybe it's genius I just can't see.


[12:22] <kiko> dupe
[12:25] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88538 in malone "gtk-qt-engine Makes Gnome Display Incorrectly" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88538
[12:41] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88544 in soyuz "update-manager upload vanished" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88544
[12:46] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88545 in malone "Abolish the "status explanation" database field" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88545
[12:48] <mpt_> Yik, the beta is good at crashing Safari :-/
[01:00] <Gacoment> hola
[01:00] <Gacoment> Ubuntu WONDERFULl
[01:01] <kiko> Gacoment, try #ubuntu
[01:05] <Gacoment> kiko, why?
[01:05] <kiko> well, because this channel is for launchpad, not ubuntu. :)
[01:07] <Gacoment> kiko, i saw it but i am happy :P
[03:05] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88561 in blueprint "E-mail notifications still refer to "[Spec" and "Specification"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88561
[03:50] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88569 in malone "Give karma for adding/changing/removing tags" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88569
[04:05] <ausimage> I had question regarding the support feature in LP...
[04:05] <ausimage> Could it be used by a Team to recieve requests for something....
[04:06] <ausimage> EG. Requests for Meeting Summary or Logging in the case of the ScribesTeam
[04:14] <ausimage> Can someone PM when they get a chance I will be on for a little while yet tonight and then tomorrow afternoon or later THANKS
[04:15] <Hobbsee> ausimage: presumably you could subscribe a team to support requests.  try it?
[04:16] <ausimage> Hobbsee: how does the subscribe feature work???
[04:16] <ausimage> Hobbsee: what I am saying is possible right??
[04:16] <Hobbsee> er, anyone else
[04:17] <Hobbsee> my Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ?
[04:17] <Hobbsee> right here
[04:19] <ausimage> Any one have an answer for me??
[04:20] <Hobbsee> ausimage: i suspect the answer is "try it"
[04:22] <ausimage> LaserJock fancy a go at a support feature question ???
[04:23] <LaserJock_> I don't know anything about the support ticket stuff
[04:24] <ausimage> I asked Hobbsee about she neither... will see if it will work then...
[04:25] <jamesh> ausimage: you can subscribe teams to bugs
[04:26] <jamesh> ausimage: if the team has an email address associated with it, mail will go there
[04:26] <jamesh> ausimage: if not, email will be sent to each member of the team individually
[04:26] <ausimage> jamesh: I want to have teams request support to log meeting and do summaries
[04:27] <jamesh> could you rephrase that?
[04:27] <jamesh> I am not quite sure what you mean
[04:28] <ausimage> jamesh:  the support feature... I was thinking of using to have to teams request support of the ScribesTeam to do a meeting related task
[04:30] <jamesh> well, requests in the answer tracker are made by users
[04:30] <jamesh> you can subscribe a team to the request afterwards, iirc
[04:30] <ausimage> I thought of this when I noticed the loco website creator using this
[04:30] <jamesh> and a team can be listed as the support contact for a product (so it gets mail when new tickets are created)
[04:31] <ausimage> how would I go about making the ScribesTeam a contact for a meeting product??
[04:32] <jamesh> what do you mean by "meeting product"
[04:32] <ausimage> I mean a service to help a team with their meetings
[04:33] <jamesh> ausimage: I think we are talking past each other here.  Are you after some kind of calendar program?
[04:33] <ausimage> Not at this point.. it could be step that way though ;)
[04:34] <ausimage> I just was thinking a team can put a support request in toScribesTeam er ubuntu-scribes
[04:34] <ausimage> as way to show usefulness...
[04:35] <ausimage> and make it easy to request our help
[04:35] <jamesh> why do you want to use support requests here?
[04:35] <ausimage> I am thinking to request the support of our services with their meetings
[04:36] <ausimage> It would like ubuntu-website using the support feature to request a new loco website
[04:36] <ausimage> jamesh make any sense??
[04:37] <jamesh> okay.  This sounds a lot more like appointment requests w.r.t. calendars
[04:37] <ausimage> It could be but I was trying to stay 'within the box'
[04:38] <jamesh> I don't think you'll have much joy trying to fit the answer tracker to that workflow
[04:38] <ausimage> I am not sure I think it would be fine
[04:43] <LaserJock_> basically I think ausimage wants an LP team to be able to take support requests
[04:43] <ausimage> YES LaserJock_
[04:44] <ausimage> Could the support feature not handle that???
[04:45] <ausimage> they created a product by their name and attached it themselves
[04:52] <LaserJock_> ausimage: I don't think ubuntu-scribes has a product
[04:52] <ausimage> I created one
[04:52] <LaserJock_> hmm, I'm not sure if you were upposed to do that
[04:52] <ausimage> it is what the ubuntu-website team did
[04:52] <LaserJock_> but whatever :-)
[04:52] <LaserJock_> they have a product though
[04:52] <ausimage> we have a service at least
[06:04] <stub> Launchpad is going down in 26 minutes for a code update and data migration work. Estimated downtime is 3 hours.
[06:29] <mpt> "Launchpad will be going offline for maintenance in 50 seconds."
[06:29] <mpt> wah
[06:37] <PWill> Is the LP beta going public? Or is this just general maintenance...
[06:49] <jamesh> PWill: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/launchpad-users/2007-February/001128.html
[06:49] <PWill> Thanks, jamesh
[06:50] <jamesh> PWill: a database change is being rolled out to improve Rosetta's performance, and Feisty is being opened for translations
[06:50] <PWill> OK, thanks for the info jamesh
[06:55] <mpt> BjornT, now that we have canonical pillarnames, can an e-mailed report just say " affects xyz"?
[06:55] <mpt> or does it need to be " affects /xyz"?
[06:57] <ajmitch> alright, I guess this is my evening off then, if LP is down for awhile :)
[07:19] <mpt> agh, I thought I'd be able to do wiki work while Launchpad was down
[07:19] <mpt> foiled again :-)
[07:19] <ajmitch> can't login?
[07:21] <mpt> I had logged in before LP went down, in preparation
[07:21] <mpt> but still no worky
[07:21] <mpt> never mind, I'll just save a local file
[08:05] <BjornT> mpt: not atm. bug i think saying ' affects foo' or (' affects foo/package') should be enough, i plan to fix that some day.
[08:06] <BjornT> mpt: at the moment you still have to write ' affects /products/xyz'
[08:15] <sabdfl> LaserJock: it's fine for ausimage to create a product called "ubuntu-scribes"
[08:15] <sabdfl> it's just a place to hang stuff
[08:15] <sabdfl> it's.... creative but fine
[08:15] <sabdfl> mpt: yes, "affects foo" is what it should be
[08:16] <LaserJock> sabdfl: yes, there seems to be a bit of fudging to get LP to do what we want
[08:16] <sabdfl> BjornT: some day? pre-1.0 surely?
[08:16] <LaserJock> I just mentioned it because we (MOTU) were going to create a product to file package request bugs against (like wnpp in Debian)
[08:17] <LaserJock> but in talking with the LP guys we came up with a different solution
[08:18] <BjornT> sabdfl: yeah, it should be pre-1.0.
[08:19] <sabdfl> LaserJock: go ahead. that's something I want to formally support in future in LP, but there's nothing wrong with getting going using the existing infrastructure
[08:20] <LaserJock> sabdfl: yeah, we are using a tag with the upcoming feature of being able to "preload" the bug filing page with the tag
[08:20] <LaserJock> thanks to BjornT's work
[08:21] <LaserJock> so we should be able to give users 1 URL that will let them file the bug and not have to worry about that tag
[08:22] <sabdfl> neat
[08:24] <LaserJock> I liked the idea of using tags
[08:24] <LaserJock> but I could imagine users misspelling or just plain not knowing the tag
[08:25] <sabdfl> yes, having the ability for people to give folks a "file a bug" URL which auto-tags that bug is a very neat idea, especially if it can be done silently and cleanly (i.e. will polished URL's)
[09:14] <shawarma> The "Service Unavailable" page says "Copyright 2004-2005".. You might want to update that.
[09:27] <mpt> shawarma, that's bug 41273
[09:32] <shawarma> mpt: Oh, ok.
[09:35] <mpt> https://launchpad.net/bugs/41273 when Launchpad comes back :-)
[09:35] <shawarma> mpt: Kind of hard to know when LP is down. :-) I figured I'd forget it once LP was back so I'd just shout it here before I forgot.
[11:14] <stub> production is back up. beta next
[11:45] <Ubugtu> New bug: #40550 in rosetta "Further filtering options for the Queue" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/40550
[12:21] <cprov> good morning, folks
[12:40] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88611 in soyuz "Only one PPA per user" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88611
[12:40] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88612 in soyuz "PPA uploads should be submitted  to auto-overrides procedure" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88612
[12:46] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88613 in soyuz "Investigate possible problems with the current build dispatching algorithm and PPA" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88613
[01:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88636 in soyuz "Launchpad buildds need to use the given PPA archive" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88636
[01:56] <pochu> are feisty translations already opened? I can see the templates, but they appear as untranslated, though (some of) them are translated
[01:56] <pochu> https://translations.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+lang/es
[01:59] <kiko> carlos, ^^^
[02:00] <carlos> pochu: no, we are in the process of opening it
[02:00] <carlos> pochu: the statistics are cached, and need to be refreshed
[02:00] <carlos> so it's not that they are untranslated
[02:04] <pochu> carlos: yeah, I've seen it when I've gone to translate some packages :)
[02:04] <pochu> hehe
[02:04] <pochu> carlos: any idea when they'll be ready (just to go then)
[02:05] <carlos> we will announce it
[02:05] <carlos> but it will take a couple of days
[02:05] <pochu> ah, ok :)
[02:05] <pochu> ty
[02:35] <statik> moin
[02:39] <bac> statik: hello.  welcome back!
[02:42] <statik> bac: thanks! did you have storms in NC, or was that only farther north?
[02:42] <bac> nothing here but blue skies
[02:43] <bac> had some heavy rain over the weekend
[04:30] <Ubugtu> New bug: #28525 in malone "Pgp-signed bugs and bug comments should show that the signature belongs to the person who signed it." [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/28525
[04:56] <Ubugtu> New bug: #39387 in malone "Protect against double-posting with simple string matching" [Low,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/39387
[05:20] <dneary> Hi
[05:20] <dneary> Anyone here who can review a new .pot I uploaded, please?
[05:20] <dneary> I would like to make a release (and upload some .po files) this evening
[05:30] <Ubugtu> New bug: #54022 in rosetta "Sample data inconsistency in poselection/posubmission" [Undecided,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/54022
[05:43] <Gwaihir> hi... got a quick question...
[05:43] <Gwaihir> are the Feisty trnalations ready or the is still some work to be done?
[05:45] <Gwaihir> s/trnalations/translations
[06:51] <tsmithe> what happened to fooix the wonder toaster??!
[07:50] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88732 in launchpad "Products listed in projects are ugly" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88732
[09:15] <leoquant> hello is it possible to change the default emailadress in launchpad?
[09:16] <ddaa> leoquant: click on your name at the top-right
[09:16] <ddaa> then click on "E-mail Addresses" in the box at the top left
[09:17] <ddaa> then select one validated address from the list and click "Set as Contact Address"
[09:17] <leoquant> ok
[09:18] <leoquant> i give it a try
[09:45] <Gwaihir> hi... when are translations for feisty scheduled for import?
[09:55] <salgado> Gwaihir, they're not yet open:
 pochu: no, we are in the process of opening it
 pochu: the statistics are cached, and need to be refreshed
 so it's not that they are untranslated
[09:55] <salgado> (hmmm. looks like I didn't read your question; sorry)
[09:56] <Gwaihir> oh.. salgado... anyway thanks!
 we will announce it
 but it will take a couple of days
[09:56] <salgado> Gwaihir, ^
[09:56] <Gwaihir> great! ;)
[09:56] <Gwaihir> thanks a lot!
[09:56] <salgado> you're welcome. :)
[09:57] <Gwaihir> can I bother you with a questio... not really related to launchpad....
[09:58] <salgado> sure, but I can't guarantee I'll be able to help you
[09:58] <Gwaihir> ok... I'll try...
[09:58] <Gwaihir> who does administer the IRC channel?
[09:59] <Gwaihir> I would like to set up a cloak... but don't know who to contac
[09:59] <Gwaihir> *contact
[10:01] <salgado> hmmm. I read something about setting up a cloak some time ago
[10:01] <salgado> let me see if I can find it
[10:06] <Gwaihir> don't bother too much... don't worry...
[10:09] <salgado> can't seem to find it. :/
[10:11] <Gwaihir> salgado: thanks anyway! :)
[10:45] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88778 in launchpad "inconsistent navigation" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88778
[11:11] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88783 in launchpad "fonts are too small" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88783
[11:40] <Ubugtu> New bug: #88788 in soyuz "Distrorelease Queue Pages have broken image icons in 1.0 UI" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/88788


[03:40] <noruzenchi86> heya. Just wanted to link back to a forum post here to see if anyone online has some insight.
[03:40] <noruzenchi86> I wanted to try out linux & decided on kubuntu, but I'm having a problem where audio completely stopped working and I don't know the cause of it. Restarting doesn't work, but booting back into Windows does. It was working previously today.
[03:40] <noruzenchi86> posted here https://www.kubuntuforums.net/forum/currently-supported-releases/kubuntu-23-04-lunar-lobster/post-installation-ay/672923-sound-has-stopped-working
[03:42] <noruzenchi86> Restarting doesn't fix the audio* I should clarify
[04:25] <noruzenchi86> rip, think I drew too much power trying to run Deep Rock on this thing. XD
[04:25] <noruzenchi86> automatic shutoff after 5 seconds on  the title screen
[04:26] <noruzenchi86> sound is back at least
 I have a question: is Linux on a ssd and windows on a hdd a bit overkill?
 Or it should be Linux on HDD and Windows on a SSD
 I don't wanna bother reinstalling Windows as it might be a pain in the ass reinstalling stuff (I don't know if cloning software would work)
 Both on SSD
 gmppopopenh264 crashes on  Firefox 116.0 on Kubuntu 22.04LTS. about.:config says it was updated 2 days ago. Will the Cisco version of libopen264 fix this?
 Confirmed: It does fix the issue.
[07:31] <massimo> film
[10:35] <jegan> Top best OS. Thank you
[13:02] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[15:14] <user|58> Hi all! A quick noob question: I have an old 32-bit pc and I wanted to install kubuntu on it. Is there a version compatible with it? Thanks in advance!
[15:24] <diogenes_Vx15> user|58, i don't think so, better go with Debian.
[18:01] <cbreak> https://releases.ubuntu.com/, 16.04 is the newest I saw with intel 32 bit support, and that's probably way too old to still be properly supported
[18:17] <oerheks> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/bionic-updates/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/ .. but this version 18,04 lts is EOL too
[18:18] <oerheks> find a 32 bit chrome os ?
 Hi. if you want opensuse still has a 32bit updated KDE distro (re @IrcsomeBot: <user|58> Hi all! A quick noob question: I have an old 32-bit pc and I wanted to install kubuntu on it. Is there a version compatible with it? Thanks in advance!)
[19:24] <cbreak> I wonder if it's still economical to use a 32bit intel cpu, from a performance / watt perspective
[19:30] <oerheks> firehazard machines


[08:46] <lifeless> so I have my test machine up and running, but boy was it more work than I expected
[09:11] <wgrant> lifeless: Around?
[09:12] <lifeless> yes
[09:12] <lifeless> 'sup?
[09:13] <lifeless> wgrant: ^
[09:13] <wgrant> lifeless: I tried to use testresources in lazr.amqp, with ResourcedTestCase. But it cleans and sets up the fixture for every test. Do I have to work in OptimisingTestSuite somehow?
[09:14] <lifeless> yes
[09:14] <lifeless> what test runner are you using ?
[09:14] <wgrant> At the moment it's zope.testrunner, but we're not tied to that.
[09:14] <wgrant> Will gladly abandon it.
[09:15] <StevenK> jtv!!!
[09:15] <wgrant> Still QA?
[09:15] <jtv> StevenK: ?
[09:15] <lifeless> wgrant: you will have to
[09:15] <wgrant> lifeless: Excellent.
[09:15] <StevenK> jtv: You have 4 or 5 branches of QA!
[09:15] <lifeless> wgrant: it messes with uites
[09:15] <wgrant> lifeless: Should I just use unittests?
[09:15] <jtv> StevenK: no I don't think so
[09:15] <wgrant> s/unittests/unittest/
[09:15] <lifeless> wgrant: subunit.run :)
[09:15] <jtv> StevenK: I had to fix an ancient +queue timeout though before I could do meaningful Q/A
[09:15] <wgrant> lifeless: Can I integrate that with buildout, or should I just use testr?
[09:16] <StevenK> jtv: Sorry, 3. r13302, r13318 and r13326
[09:16] <lifeless> wgrant: I don't know about buildout and tests
[09:16] <jtv> StevenK: I have zero branches in qa-needstesting.
[09:16] <jtv> Your view may be lagging.
[09:17] <StevenK> When did you change the bugs?
[09:17] <bigjools> pay attention gentlemen
[09:17] <jtv> StevenK: Sometime in the past 4 minutes.
[09:17]  * StevenK makes a ... sign at bigjools
[09:19] <StevenK> lifeless: I am disabling parallel-test again.
[09:20] <LPCIBot> Project parallel-test build #83: ABORTED in 11 hr: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/parallel-test/83/
[09:20] <lifeless> wgrant: chatting with jml for a quick 'how to glue it together' bootstrap may help you
[09:20] <StevenK> Because of ^
[09:20] <wgrant> lifeless: Thanks.
[09:21] <jtv> bigjools: pay attention
[09:23] <wgrant> lifeless: So we can't use test discovery?
[09:23] <lifeless> sure can
[09:23] <lifeless> need the discover egg
[09:24] <wgrant> How do we make it use OptimisingTestSuite then?
[09:24] <lifeless> and a root level load_tests hook to wrap things and reenter into discovery to gather the children
[09:24] <wgrant> k
[09:24] <wgrant> Will hopefully talk to jml.
[09:34] <danilos> jtv, hey, the approach of not having a separate expander/content box is not going to work because the spinner still ends up in the expander box
[09:36] <lifeless> matsubara: hi
[09:36] <lifeless> matsubara: I just wanted to check you saw my comment on the bug you incompleted
[09:36] <matsubara> lifeless, hello
[09:37] <lifeless> matsubara: (because you might not be subscribed ;))
[09:37] <matsubara> lifeless, I have now. thanks
[09:37] <lifeless> :)
[09:37] <matsubara> lifeless, yeah, I didn't get a mail notification :-)
[09:38] <matsubara> hmm I always thought incomplete could be used as a needs info
[09:38] <lifeless> if we turn bug expiry off, it could
[09:38] <lifeless> but bug expiry *ignores* whether a bug has had a reply
[09:38] <matsubara> right, got that. I won't do that anymore
[09:39] <lifeless> even if we turned it off, its a bit orthogonal
[09:39] <lifeless> we over-conflate things in the status field
[09:39] <matsubara> lifeless, btw, do you have an answer to the question I asked there?
[09:40] <lifeless> e.g. is-valid, is-bug-or-is-feature-request, is-ready-to-code and filer-has-been-asked-a-question
[09:40] <lifeless> matsubara: remind me  :)
[09:40] <matsubara> lifeless, Would it be sufficient to add another bullet point to the +mailinglist page (e.g. https://qastaging.launchpad.net/~oops-tools-dev/+mailinglist) saying something like: "Non-Launchpad users won't be able to post to this list. Launchpad doesn't send non-delivery receipts to non-LP users if they try to post to this mailing list."?
[09:40] <jml> lifeless: yes, that's what the BugLifecycle thing is partly aiming to address (or diagnose)
[09:40] <lifeless> jml: yes ;)
[09:41] <lifeless> matsubara: that would be a good thing to do. I don't think it will eliminate the confusion. It may reduce it.
[09:41] <lifeless> matsubara: I don't know if it would be sufficient.
[09:41] <lifeless> matsubara: its probably necessary (unless we change the behaviour, which is problematic for a whole other set of issues)
[09:43] <matsubara> lifeless, is there other place that documentation could be added?
[09:43] <lifeless> theres probably stuff on h.l.n about lists in general
[09:45] <matsubara> lifeless, right.
[09:45] <matsubara> I'll work on it today
[09:46] <lifeless> cool
[10:03] <bigjools> jtv: do you reckon we could make a query fast enough to make +localpackagediffs look for matching packages, packagesets and people associated with packages all at the same time?
[10:07] <wallyworld_> jcsackett: i've found some issues with non lazr-js build. am fixing now
[10:09] <jml> rvba: please use a bigger font :)
[10:35] <jtv> bigjools: we'll have to talk about it — I may not fully understand what it is you want
[11:28] <rvba> StevenK: qa-ok!
[11:37] <lifeless> huwshimi: hi
[11:37] <huwshimi> lifeless: Hey there
[11:37] <lifeless> so bug 697489
[11:37] <_mup_> Bug #697489: "Participation" and "Involvement" portlets order is different from "applications" links <easy> <ui> <users> <Launchpad itself:Won't Fix> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/697489 >
[11:41] <lifeless> huwshimi: how do you want to hae this discussion?
[11:41] <huwshimi> lifeless: Is here ok?
[11:41] <lifeless> its fine by me
[11:43] <lifeless> huwshimi: the getting involved portlet shows up on only one page
[11:43] <lifeless> huwshimi: I don't see how it can be such a key element
[11:44] <huwshimi> lifeless:  It appears in various forms on project pages, user profiles, bug listings, bugs, answers etc.
[11:44] <lifeless> nope
[11:44] <lifeless> project and person only AFAICT
[11:45] <lifeless> specifically the overview (root domain) view for pillars
[11:46] <lifeless> huwshimi: it may have been intended to be widely deployed, but it hasn't been
[11:47] <huwshimi> lifeless: How do you think most people file a bug?
[11:47] <lifeless> huwshimi: apport
[11:48] <lifeless> huwshimi: (statistically)
[11:48] <NCommander> StevenK: wgrant we should probably meet up tonight to talk about LP
[11:48] <lifeless> huwshimi: excluding that special case they use the 'report a bug' link which is visible on bugs.l.n/project
[11:48] <StevenK> NCommander: Tonight, ronight?
[11:48] <StevenK> s/r/t/
[11:49] <lifeless> huwshimi: log analysis can tell use if folk start from the project front page, but this involvement portlet is new
[11:49] <huwshimi> lifeless: Right, so that would seem like a pretty important part of the UI to me
[11:49] <lifeless> huwshimi: I suspect muscle memory has most folk starting with bugs.l.n/project
[11:49] <lifeless> huwshimi: thats a different portlet
[11:49] <NCommander> StevenK: well, its tonight, or tomorrow night, and I find that friday nights are less likely to get something done
[11:49] <lifeless> huwshimi: isn't it?
[11:50] <StevenK> NCommander: Tonight is the LP team dinner
[11:50] <StevenK> I'd suggest this afternoon
[11:50] <NCommander> StevenK: that works.
[11:50] <StevenK> NCommander: Pop your head into the LP breakout room and ask wgrant and bigjools
[11:50] <lifeless> huwshimi: even if it is the same one, the proposed change wouldn't alter that portlet on bugs.l.n, as its already in the same order as the applications bar
[11:51] <NCommander> StevenK: I'll be over in ~30 minutes
[11:51] <huwshimi> lifeless: The proposal is that all those portlets would be the same as the main tabs
[11:52] <huwshimi> lifeless: I don't think it is a bug that they are in a different order
[11:53] <huwshimi> (a different order to the main tabs)
[11:53] <lifeless> huwshimi: I thought the reported defect was that the order was inconsistent
[11:54] <lifeless> huwshimi: not that they needed the same content
[11:54] <huwshimi> lifeless: yes
[11:54] <huwshimi> lifeless: Are we not saying the same thing?
[11:55] <lifeless> I thought for a statement there that you thought the bug was larger than the order
[11:55] <lifeless> 'same as the main tabs'
[11:55] <lifeless> huwshimi: so I think its fine to say 'the order is different because (reason)' and wontfix it on that basis.
[11:56] <lifeless> huwshimi: closing something we agree is a defect really rubs me the wrong way; in the bug so far you have not indicated a preference for the status quo, rather indicated that change might (and we have no data only guesses) be expensive
[11:57] <huwshimi> lifeless: Well the bug merely says they should be the same for "consistency"
[11:58] <huwshimi> lifeless: There is no data to suggest that that is true either
[11:59] <lifeless> well
[11:59] <lifeless> there is some research out there, but I don't think its conclusive
[11:59] <huwshimi> lifeless: Can you point me towards it?
[11:59]  * lifeless digs
[12:00] <lifeless> Nielsen 1989b, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface#Consistency has some references
[12:01] <huwshimi> lifeless: Oh sorry I thought you meant something specific to this bug
[12:02] <lifeless> huwshimi: we don't have data on the cost of change; we don't have data on the cost of the inconsistency - thats true
[12:02] <lifeless> we have some models about potential costs for the inconsistency; and we can data mine logs to assess the cost of change if we want to
[12:09] <lifeless> huwshimi: so I'm not invested either way; As I read the report its a valid defect - but I wouldn't have called it high.
[12:10] <lifeless> huwshimi: my objection to closing it is based around whether its a valid defect or not; we shouldn't close bugs just because its tricky to do right now.
[12:12] <huwshimi> lifeless: I don't believe it is a valid defect because there is an inconsistency. As curtis mentions on the bug the order was chosen (however arbitrary that may have been).
[12:13] <huwshimi> lifeless: It is a consideration, sure, but not a bug
[12:13] <lifeless> huwshimi: curtis also says 'We want one order for all three portlet'
[12:13] <huwshimi> lifeless: Possibly we don
[12:13] <huwshimi> *we do
[12:14] <huwshimi> lifeless: It is not *wrong* that they are different
[12:14] <lifeless> huwshimi: being *wrong* is not a necessary condition to be in the tracker
[12:15] <huwshimi> lifeless: No, that's why we have statuses like "won't fix"
[12:15] <lifeless> huwshimi: huh? thats unrelated
[12:15] <lifeless> we have wontfix for things we don't want to do.
[12:16] <huwshimi> lifeless: Right, and I don't think we want to fix this
[12:17] <huwshimi> lifeless: At least not just for the sake of making it "consistent"
[12:18] <lifeless> thats not consistent with what curtis wrote earlier in the bug
[12:18] <lifeless> (heh, sorry about the reuse of consistent, brain-broke)
[12:20] <lifeless> I'm concerned that we're closing off something we would like to do (have them consistent) because the cost of change is higher than we're willing to pay for consistency.
[12:20] <lifeless> Thats getting trapped in a local trough
[12:20] <lifeless> a better thing to do is to say that we won't change it *solely* for this, leave the bug open, and when we have other reasons to change the portlets do this at the same time.
[12:21] <lifeless> the aspects of 'would we like this' and 'what is necessary to do it well/acceptably' are quite separatabl
[12:21] <lifeless> e
[12:23] <abentley> henninge: The RosettaApplicationView dates back to June 12 2005, and was last seriously touched by SteveA.
[12:27] <lifeless> huwshimi: this is dragging on too long
[12:27] <huwshimi> lifeless: So lets change this to something like opinion then?
[12:28] <lifeless> huwshimi: whats your objection to it being open with a caveat about when to do it?
[12:28] <lifeless> huwshimi: have I misunderstood you? do you actively want the portlets to have different orders?
[12:30] <huwshimi> lifeless: It's possible that a different order is actually better
[12:30] <lifeless> huwshimi: do we actually think that? curtis said that he wanted them to have the same order eventually
[12:31] <lifeless> huwshimi: if you think a different order *is* better, wontfix is totally fine, but as I understand it you haven't said that.
[12:31] <lifeless> huwshimi: you seem to be on the fence about that aspect, and unwilling to inflict a (possibly traumatic) change on our users for something you are ambivalent about
[12:32] <lifeless>  - which is totally reasonable
[12:33] <lifeless> however, curtis was totally clear that he wants all these things to have the same order, which agrees with the reporter, and combining these views suggests a real bug we shouldn't do without either more data about costs/benefits || some other change to alter the cost/benefit ratio by doing at the same time
[12:34] <huwshimi> lifeless: I would be happy with a bug that said "the current order of portlet links may not be the best possible order"
[12:34] <benji> mrevell: I changed 728193 to "In Progress"
[12:35] <lifeless> huwshimi: so change this one to say that :)
[12:35] <huwshimi> lifeless: But I don't think that's really a bug
[12:36] <lifeless> I'm getting really confused here
[12:37] <StevenK> jcsackett: https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/365812
[12:37] <_mup_> Bug #365812: lazr-sam.css should be placed under lazr/build/assets/ along with required image files <easy> <javascript> <lp-foundations> <performance> <ui> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> <LAZR Javascript Library:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/365812 >
[12:37] <lifeless> you're not stating that consistency is undesirable; you acknowledge that we may want them to be consistent; curtis *does* want them to be consistent, and the only reason presented not to harmonise things is the cost of change
[12:37] <mrevell> thanks benji
[12:37] <huwshimi> lifeless: That seems to be more of an opinion thing to actually being a bug
[12:38] <lifeless> huwshimi: sure, but its an opinion that the guy which brought in this portlet agrees with
[12:39] <lifeless> huwshimi: I've acknowledged your constraint over cost-of-change, but you still don't want this (valid) bug in the system for some reason.
[12:39] <lifeless> and I don't understand that
[12:40] <lifeless> if you're happy as things are, then cost of change is irrelevant,a nd closing it is appropriate
[12:43] <huwshimi> lifeless: So I also think there are bigger things here that make this issue kind of redundant, one of which I mentioned on the bug (about not having the "participation" portlet)
[12:45] <lifeless> huwshimi: if we've committed to doing something about it, closing wontfix (because we are doing X whichmakes redundant) also makes sense
[12:45] <lifeless> huwshimi: but if we haven't committed to doing that, or if doing that might not solve this thing, then they are different issues
[12:45] <huwshimi> lifeless: I don't really care how this is resolved. I don't think it's valid to say the portlet order should be the same as the nav which is why I closed as won't fix
[12:46] <lifeless> ah, so this is the meat :)
[12:46] <lifeless> huwshimi: do you know why curtis said that we *do* want one order for them all ?
[12:47] <huwshimi> lifeless: nope
[12:47] <lifeless> I suggest you talk to him, since you are both there.
[12:48] <lifeless> *if* we want one order, then this bug is squarely on the issue and we should update it to make sure we don't change this willy-nilly but coordinate it at some future time.
[12:49] <lifeless> if we don't want one order, then the argument about cost of change is irrelevant and wontfix is fine (but we should update it to be clear that its not wontfix-this-is-hard, its wontfix we don't *want* to be consistent.
[12:50] <lifeless> What I want is that the reasoning is clear, so that the reporter understands why, which helps them understand how we're building LP better (lots of our reporters report > 1 bug IME, and we want to help folk become contributors)
[12:52] <lifeless> huwshimi: I'm crashing now before midnight arrives
[12:52] <huwshimi> lifeless: Ok thanks for that
[12:52] <lifeless> huwshimi: thanks for your patience humouring me on this; I look forward to *one* of those things in the bug report in the morning :)
[12:53] <lifeless> unclear bug closing tends to set me off (because of the social impact it has)
[12:54] <lifeless> huwshimi: I realise this discussion probably seems a lot larger than you expected when you closed the bug :)
[12:55] <lifeless> anyhoo
[12:55] <lifeless> night all
[12:55] <lifeless> have a great day sprinting
[12:56] <wgrant> Night lifeless.
[12:59] <matsubara> anyone available for a quick review: https://code.launchpad.net/~matsubara/launchpad/772016-mailinglist-help/+merge/66443?
[13:45] <rvba> wgrant: http://paste.ubuntu.com/635746/
[13:48] <wgrant> rvba: We could have routing keys like lp.job.MergeProposalJob.1234, or lp.job.MergeProposalJob.1234.status_change, or lp.job.MergeProposalJob.1234.status.completed, or...
[13:50] <rvba> wgrant: that's the plan yes.
[14:26] <jcsackett> sinzui: how does one fire off all YUI tests at once? something with layer=YUI... yeah?
[14:34] <wgrant> jcsackett: --layer=YUI should do it.
[14:34] <jcsackett> thanks wgrant.
[14:57] <matsubara> jelmer, thanks for the review!
[14:57] <jelmer> matsubara: anytime :)
[15:00] <benji> StevenK: boo!
[15:00] <benji> StevenK: will you review https://code.launchpad.net/~benji/launchpad/bug-436247/+merge/66336 for me?
[15:00] <StevenK> benji: I could be convinced. Whaddya got?
[15:01]  * benji hands StevenK ten thousand units of his currency of choice.
[15:02] <StevenK> Haha
[15:03] <StevenK> benji: My only concern is you drop a tal:define of number_of_dupes
[15:03] <benji> ooh, looking
[15:03] <benji> StevenK: yep, that block didn't have anything in it (and defines are scoped to the enclosing tag (unless they have "global" on them))
[15:04] <StevenK> benji: Right, so it was utterly pointless
[15:04] <benji> absolutely
[15:05] <StevenK> benji: r=me
[15:05] <benji> cool, thanks
[15:53] <jml> poolie: Give lp:~jml/testtools/gassy-failure-660852 a try if you'd like
[16:21] <wgrant> allenap: http://paste.ubuntu.com/634326/
[16:25] <benji> StevenK: that was lazr.restfulclient, right?
[16:26] <StevenK> benji: Right
[16:26] <benji> k
[16:27] <benji> StevenK: I don't see a NEWS.txt entry.  What's a good one-line description of the change?
[16:27] <StevenK> benji: Best person to ask is poolie.
[16:28]  * benji sends telepathic waves towards poolie.
[16:28] <StevenK> Did they work? :-P
[16:28] <benji> not yet
[16:30] <benji> I think I'll just construct some NEWS entries from the bzr log, it looks like several people merged things in without updating NEWS.
[16:30] <benji> Bad people.  No cookie.
[16:32] <StevenK> benji: Haha, thank you for sorting it.
[16:34] <huwshimi> deryck: Do you want to review this branch? https://code.launchpad.net/~huwshimi/launchpad/bug-link-focus-749845/+merge/66474
[16:34] <deryck> huwshimi, sure.  5 minutes to finish another review, and I'll take a look.
[16:34] <huwshimi> deryck: np
[16:36] <deryck> wallyworld_, hey.  you really here?
[16:36] <wallyworld_> deryck: yes
[16:36] <wallyworld_> sometimes
[16:36] <deryck> wallyworld_, actually hold on, sorry.  taking my advice to jcsackett for a make clean first.
[16:36] <wallyworld_> ok
[16:40] <deryck> wallyworld_, false alarm.  works beautifully and diff reports the same files now.
[16:40] <wallyworld_> deryck: \o/
[16:40] <deryck> wallyworld_, so r=me.
[16:40] <wallyworld_> awesome, thanks
[16:41] <deryck> np
[16:41] <deryck> huwshimi, looking at your MP now.
[16:46] <deryck> huwshimi, come see me about your bug when you can.
[16:46] <deryck> or your MP rather
[16:46] <huwshimi> deryck: Sure, be there in a few
[16:46] <deryck> huwshimi, cool
[16:47] <benji> StevenK: ok, 0.12.0 is released
[16:47] <StevenK> benji: Thanks! Where can I grab it?
[16:48] <benji> StevenK: https://launchpad.net/lazr.restfulclient/+download
[16:50] <poolie> thanks jml
[17:16] <jml> poolie: you might want to try again with the latest branch. I've applied mgz's suggestions.
[17:20] <deryck> huwshimi, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/635875/
[17:22] <huwshimi> deryck: Thanks for that
[17:22] <huwshimi> deryck: Do you want to approve the branch, or are you ok for me to do it?
[17:22] <deryck> huwshimi, no problem.  I added the pastebin to the MP when I approved it just now, too.
[17:22] <huwshimi> deryck: Ah awesome thatnks
[17:22] <deryck> np
[17:22] <huwshimi> *thanks
[17:28] <huwshimi> poolie: If you want to talk about the branch page any more I'm available now
[17:29] <allenap> rvba: lp:~allenap/launchpad/routing-key-generation
[17:38] <gmb> wgrant: http://oo00.eu
[17:41] <poolie> huwshimi, mrevell, would you two like to come and talk about bug workflow with ubuntu people? skaet etc
[17:41] <poolie> up on floor 2
[17:43] <huwshimi> poolie: sure, on way
[17:59] <jml> deryck: re "Big Bang Theory", http://life.metagnome.net/2011/05/crane-transposition.html
[17:59]  * deryck looks
[18:32] <wgrant> gmb: You appear to have failed to push your lazr.amqp changes. trunk still thinks it's 0.0.2.
[20:21] <timrc> wgrant, ping
[20:22] <timrc> or anyone, what's the proper way to branch a private tree and push it back to LP such that it retains its privacy settings?
[20:42] <dobey> timrc: if you're pushing to a project that has branches private by default, it will be private by default
[20:43] <timrc> dobey, not from my experience
[20:43] <timrc> dobey, at least, not with bzrlib
[20:44] <dobey> bzr is not a private project
[20:44] <dobey> its branches are public by default
[20:45] <timrc> dobey, no, I branched a private branch, made some changes, and pushed a new branch back using bzrlib
[20:45] <timrc> the new branch was public
[20:45] <beuno> timrc, that decision is made by launchpad, not bzr
[20:45] <beuno> so it depends on the location
[20:46] <dobey> pushed to where?
[20:46] <beuno> if you push back to the project with private branches by default, it will be private
[20:46] <dobey> timrc: so you're writing some script that uses bzrlib, and does the pushing/pulling bits?
[20:46] <timrc> dobey, yeah
[20:46] <timrc> maybe it's because the private branch is owned by a user and not a project?
[20:47] <beuno> it shouldn't matter
[20:47] <dobey> projects don't own branches
[20:47] <timrc> a team, rather
[20:47] <beuno> you need to find out if a project has private branches by default or not
[20:47] <lifeless> moin
[20:47] <dobey> could be the project does not have private branches by default
[20:51] <bryceh> While:
[20:51] <bryceh>   Installing scripts.
[20:51] <bryceh>   Getting distribution for 'lazr.amqp==0.1'.
[20:51] <bryceh> Error: Couldn't find a distribution for 'lazr.amqp==0.1'.
[20:52] <bryceh> this is from attempting a rocketfuel-branch after updating to latest devel today.  ideas?
[20:55] <lifeless> update your download cache
[20:56] <bryceh> yep, I think that did it
[20:56] <bryceh> thanks
[21:09] <timrc> I think my problem is that I pushed to +junk ?
[21:09] <timrc> are branches that get pushed to +junk made public?
[21:10] <lifeless> timrc: +junk is public
[21:10] <timrc> so this is just my general lack of understanding :)
[21:10] <lifeless> timrc: there is /no/ concept of 'is this thing private' for bzr
[21:10] <lifeless> timrc: so once you have a local branch, its just like every other branch
[21:10] <timrc> lifeless, this is just a result of my misunderstanding
[21:10] <lifeless> timrc: /projects/ in launchpad can define privacy rules
[21:14] <timrc> lifeless, okay
[21:46] <dobey> hrmm
[21:46] <dobey> why is most of the content in http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/maverick/gobject-introspection/maverick/view/head:/debian/control.in red text on red background? makes no sense to me :)
[21:49] <lifeless> looks lik a pygments fail
[22:07] <lifeless> dobey: file a bug ?
[22:12] <dobey> ok
[22:13] <dobey> against lp, or against... whatever that thing is called that is used for the code browsing?
[22:21] <beuno> dobey, loggerhead
[22:21] <lifeless> lp
[22:21] <beuno> against loggerhead
[22:21] <lifeless> we'll add tasks to loggerhead and a watch to pygments
[22:22] <lifeless> beuno: fixed-in-loggerhead isn't fixed-in-lp, so it needs both
[22:22] <beuno> true
[22:45] <StevenK> lifeless: O hai. Can I trouble you for a small review?
[22:47] <lifeless> of course
[22:48] <StevenK> lifeless: https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/branch-approximatedate/+merge/66480
[22:48] <lifeless> thats reviewed :)
[22:49] <StevenK> lifeless: Thanks. I didn't think it would be controversial :-)
[22:49] <StevenK> lifeless: As an aside, 'a moment ago' is from the branch I landed a few hours ago
[22:49] <lifeless> no worries
[22:50] <lifeless> yeah, I like the look of it
[22:50] <StevenK> I'm not sure if 10 seconds is the right answer, but it's only mentioned in one place ...
[22:55] <lifeless> That test could fail, but if wehave 10 second swap storms stalling the test runner, we have a real problem
[22:55] <StevenK> Right
[23:00] <lifeless> hows the week been ?
[23:01] <StevenK> Tiring
[23:01] <StevenK> And in fact, on that note, I'm going to bed. :-)
[23:21]  * jelmer waves
[23:22] <mwhudson> jelmer: hi!  fixed that bzr-svn bug yet? :)
[23:26] <jelmer> mwhudson!
[23:26] <jelmer> mwhudson: No, but making progress
[23:26] <mwhudson> cool
[23:26] <mwhudson> nice to see some work on loggerhead, too
[23:26] <jelmer> mwhudson, I did some manual imports of gcc today to unblock some people
[23:27] <jelmer> mwhudson, and I at least have an idea how to manually fix the issue by disabling tags for the moment
[23:27] <jelmer> mwhudson, the memory problem turns out to be the fact that we do one run of "svn log" per tag, and then keep the results of that in memory
[23:27] <mwhudson> ah
[23:27] <jelmer> gcc has ~700 tags
[23:27] <mwhudson> i can see how that would be a problem for gcc
[23:29] <jelmer> the fact that we hold that data in memory 700 times is accidental - we start iterators that we don't fully consume; but because we keep a handle to them, and because they consume data generated by independent threads, we use all that memory
[23:33] <mwhudson> ah
[23:33] <mwhudson> nice software abstractions defeat efficient performance
[23:33] <mwhudson> or something?
[23:34] <jelmer> yeah, though s/nice// because they defeat efficient performance :P
[23:35] <mwhudson> s/^/seemingly /
[23:35] <lifeless> how does one tell a doctest to run in a layer?
[23:36] <lifeless> a DocTestSuite specifically
[23:36] <mwhudson> lifeless: have you encountered test_system_documentation yet?
[23:37] <lifeless> probably
[23:37] <lifeless> I'll poke at that
[23:38] <mwhudson> ah, actually i guess lib/lp/$app/test/test_doc.py is the modern equivalent
[23:38] <mwhudson> (but test_system_documentation is still there too)
[23:39] <lifeless> ah
[23:39] <lifeless> suite.layer = x
[23:40] <timrc> I'm getting http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/636053/ when I create (bzr init) a new tree and then push it to an existing project... any idea how I can rectify this?  Appears to be some sort of compatibility issue...
[23:42] <lifeless> #bzr might be a better place to ask :)
[23:43] <timrc> lifeless, good point :)
[23:43] <timrc> my brain has married the two projects together :/
[23:45] <jelmer> they're not married, but at least very good friends :)


[08:52] <DanChapman> Good Morning
[08:53] <SaberX01> GM
[10:04] <davmor2> Morning all
[12:45] <DanChapman> xnox, hey how are you? Hope you had a good xmas and new year. Would you be able to give this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/Ubiquity a quick run over if you get a chance, it's not massively important right now, just could do with other peoples eyes over it
[12:46] <xnox> DanChapman: ok.
[12:47] <DanChapman> xnox thanks :-)
[15:03] <elopio> good morning
[15:05] <cgoldberg> morning elopio
[18:33] <slickymaster> Noskcaj, when you'll get a chance to, ping me on bug 1262492
[18:34] <slickymaster> I'm wondering if it really should be considered a bug instead of user request
[18:35] <slickymaster> ups, sorry guys, wrong channel
[22:12] <melodie> hello!