[01:00] <Vantrax> huzzah
[01:00] <bodhizazen> Who is leading meeting ?
[01:00] <pleia2> cprofitt is the best meeting leader :)
[01:00] <Vantrax> i agree
[01:01] <jamesrfla> +1 PrivateVoid
[01:01] <bodhizazen> +1 from me :)
[01:01] <cprofitt> lol
[01:01] <Vantrax> lol tabfail
[01:01] <Vantrax> greg-g are you around?
[01:02] <jamesrfla> Vantrax: it isn't a tab fail if you were talking to me
[01:02] <cprofitt> #startmeeting Ubuntu-Learning
[01:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 19:02. The chair is cprofitt.
[01:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[01:02] <bodhizazen> can we post links to license options please ?
[01:02] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Licensing
[01:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Licensing
[01:03] <cprofitt> [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/
[01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/
[01:03] <pleia2> hm, no doctormo
[01:03] <cprofitt> [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/license/
[01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/license/
[01:03] <Vantrax> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
[01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
[01:03] <Vantrax> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/
[01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/
[01:03] <Vantrax> those are the two licenses under consideration
[01:04] <bodhizazen> thank you
[01:04] <cprofitt> [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses
[01:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses
[01:04] <cprofitt> the only one I am considering is CC-BY-SA for content created by the team
[01:04] <bodhizazen> and for those of you familiar with the issues, slow down so the others (me?) can follow please :)
[01:04] <Vantrax> dinda raised some good points about this too. Do we intend for people to be able to use our materials to create a business suppling ubuntu training?
[01:04] <bodhizazen> no Vantrax
[01:05] <cprofitt> I think any content that is CC-BY-SA-NC should be relicensed or simply linked to and not hosted
[01:05] <thewrath> cprofitt: "Attribution Share Alike"
[01:05] <thewrath> ?
[01:05] <cprofitt> Vantrax, intend or not want to prohibit?
[01:05] <Vantrax> CC-BY-SA allows someone to do that
[01:05] <Vantrax> which was the reason the Desktop Training materials are NC
[01:06] <cprofitt> thewrath, that means that if you were to use content I create you have to give me attribution and you have to share your derivative work
[01:06] <thewrath> right
[01:06] <cprofitt> Vantrax, and there are uses that some might consider commercial that I would want to allow
[01:06] <thewrath> that is CC BY SA right
[01:06] <Vantrax> we can supply non-transferable waivers and keep things NC as well as an option
[01:06] <cprofitt> I have no issue with someone using our material in a in-person course and charging for it.
[01:07] <cprofitt> as long as they follow the attribution and share their derivative works
[01:07] <cprofitt> I think including the NC part is pointless as it is not something I or the Ubuntu community is likely to be able to enforce in the first place
[01:08] <cprofitt> and there are too many 'does this really apply' type questions
[01:08] <bodhizazen> I think we need an agreement of kinds
[01:08] <bodhizazen> work posted on the server is "owned" by the UCLP
[01:08] <Vantrax> yes
[01:08] <thewrath> bodhizazen: +1
[01:09] <bodhizazen> authors need to agree to that
[01:09] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, the group had previously voted on and CC-BY-SA
[01:09] <cprofitt> is that decision null and void?
[01:09] <bodhizazen> I think the decision has been questioned
[01:09] <Vantrax> no, it is being opened for discussion
[01:09] <cprofitt> I can not agree to it being owned by the UCLP
[01:09] <bodhizazen> and this meeting is to discuss issues and objections
[01:09] <Vantrax> cprofitt: in the same way everything posted to UF is 'owned' by UF
[01:10] <thewrath> cprofitt: why not?
[01:10] <bodhizazen> I think there are too many complications if the materials are not owned by the UCLP
[01:10] <cprofitt> Vantrax, actually I am not aware of Ubuntu Forums claiming ownership - please point me to that language
[01:10] <bodhizazen> cprofitt: that could be clarified by UG in a hearbeat
[01:11] <thewrath> Vantrax: me as well
[01:11] <cprofitt> UG?
[01:11] <bodhizazen> Ubuntu Geek
[01:11] <cprofitt> I would like to see it on the site... in writing.
[01:11] <cprofitt> I will discontinue use of Ubuntu Forums if they claim ownership
[01:11] <cprofitt> Ownership and the right to use are two different things.
[01:12] <bodhizazen> Let me see what I can find
[01:12] <Vantrax> im hunting for it atm
[01:12] <bodhizazen> what is the difference between ownership and right to use that you object to cprofitt ?
[01:12] <Vantrax> its some legal issue, the same reason MSN Messenger states they own an non transferable license to anything you transmit
[01:13] <cprofitt> anything published CC-BY-SA should not require UCLP ownership
[01:13] <cprofitt> If I produce content - I own it - and I choose to license it as CC-BY-SA
[01:13] <cprofitt> I do not GIVE ownership to Ubuntu or anyone else
[01:13] <bodhizazen> yes, but individuals claiming ownership for a community project, that is messy
[01:13] <cprofitt> I do not claim ownership of a community project bodhizazen
[01:13] <bodhizazen> claiming you own someghitn on a public server is messy
[01:14] <cprofitt> I do not agree bodhizazen
[01:14] <cprofitt> that is the entire purpose of CC
[01:14] <Vantrax> also worth noting, anything on the ubuntu forums is automatically cc-by-sa
[01:14] <bodhizazen> So if foo posts content
[01:14] <bodhizazen> and then 6 months later claims s/he owns the content and wants it removed
[01:14] <bodhizazen> what happens ?
[01:15] <Vantrax> it might be better to say that
[01:15] <Vantrax> if we say everything submitted is by-sa then we can say bad luck
[01:15] <cprofitt> Vantrax, that I can accept... but that does not mean I relinquish my ownership of the material
[01:15] <Vantrax> because we hold a valid license to use it, and create derivative works:P
[01:15] <cprofitt> I think you are not understanding the nature of ownership bodhizazen
[01:16] <bodhizazen> I think not
[01:16] <Vantrax> we can make the default to give ownership to the project, but allow people to retain it personally
[01:16] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, have you any legal background?
[01:16] <Vantrax> if they request it
[01:16] <bodhizazen> not enough aparently cprofitt
[01:16] <cprofitt> If Greg-g were here he could settle it...
[01:16] <cprofitt> I am not 100% on this stuff...
[01:17] <james_w> cprofitt: you are correct so far as I understand it
[01:17] <Vantrax> ill retract my previous statement about the forums, I cant back it up. Ill post a link in our channel later if I find something
[01:17] <cprofitt> but from the discussions he and I have had... and the seminars I have attended in relation to my job
[01:17] <bodhizazen> well, how can we vote for something if we do not understand it ?
[01:17] <cprofitt> if a person publishes something as CC-BY-SA they do not relinquish ownership... but they can not stop anyone from using that content as produced as long as the license is followed
[01:18] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, we can not vote on something we do not understand.
[01:18] <cprofitt> when the group voted the last time to accept CC-BY-SA Greg-g gave us an explanation
[01:18] <cprofitt> thanks james_w
[01:18] <Vantrax> if something is by-sa then all works based on it must be by-sa right?
[01:18] <bodhizazen> well, since that vote the issue has come up again :)
[01:18] <Vantrax> its inherited?
[01:19] <james_w> the difference with assigning ownership to the team would be with the BY clause
[01:19] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, why will the vote issue come up again?
[01:19] <cprofitt> This was already voted on...
[01:19] <cprofitt> james_w, exactly
[01:19] <bodhizazen> why is assigning ownership to the team a problem ?
[01:19] <james_w> under that clause if you create a derivative work then you have to say that you derived from *me*, but if it is owned by the group then you say you derived from the *group*
[01:19] <bodhizazen> cprofitt: the ones who brought up the issue are not here
[01:20] <bodhizazen> that would be doctormo
[01:20] <james_w> the other thing is that if I own it then I can choose to give the work to someone else under a different license
[01:20] <cprofitt> I do not think the issue is with our use of BY-CC-SA
[01:20] <bodhizazen> and just because somethign is voted on does not mean it can not be revisited or questioned , lol
[01:20] <james_w> e.g. sell it to a company and allow then to not follow the BY-SA parts
[01:20] <Vantrax> From my perspective, we request everything be licenced as by-sa but we use materials derived from the desktop training course and license them as by-sa-nc.
[01:20] <cprofitt> I think the question Martin was asking was concerning how the project would be able to use content that was CC-BY-SA-NC
[01:21] <james_w> ah
[01:21] <Vantrax> were not commercial
[01:21] <james_w> you can't mix CC-BY-SA-NC and CC-BY-SA
[01:21] <Vantrax> yeah
[01:21] <james_w> they are incompatible licenses
[01:21] <cprofitt> so in this case as Vantrax has pointed out the restriction by Canonical on their desktop course
[01:21] <Vantrax> thats our headache
[01:21] <bodhizazen> doctormo gave the impression he was intending the site to be commercial
[01:21] <bodhizazen> the question is what is our intent
[01:21] <Vantrax> er no... the oposite
[01:22] <bodhizazen> our intent is not commercial
[01:22] <Vantrax> he wants it all NC-BY-SA
[01:22] <cprofitt> we may not be able to use the desktop course ...
[01:22] <Vantrax> but he also wants it open for people to do 'tutoring' based on it
[01:22] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I am not aware of him wanting it to be NC
[01:22] <cprofitt> I think his concern is how to use NC works
[01:22] <Vantrax> er CC-BY-SA
[01:22] <bodhizazen> lol
[01:22] <cprofitt> but as he is not here we should move on... and table this until the next time
[01:22] <Vantrax> and yes, his consern is how to implement NC
[01:23] <bodhizazen> +1 cprofitt
[01:23] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Theme / Name
[01:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Theme / Name
[01:23] <bodhizazen> I suggest a discussion page ?
[01:23] <cprofitt> bodhizazen,
[01:23] <Vantrax> I think its fine as long as it is complete and self contained
[01:23] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, we can use the mailing list to discuss the license issues
[01:23]  * bodhizazen looks fo rlink to agenda
[01:23] <Vantrax> yes
[01:23] <cprofitt> that will allow Greg-g to give us advice
[01:24] <Vantrax> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
[01:24] <cprofitt> you are up bodhizazen with theme and name
[01:24] <Vantrax> theme is getting there, its blind coded atm so ill need to get it tested and fix lots of bugs
[01:24] <Vantrax> but it is complete, except for a header image
[01:25] <Vantrax> as for the name...
[01:25] <cprofitt> good job Vantrax, bodhizazen do you have a test site and a production site at this time?
[01:25] <Vantrax> I think that was in regard to the name of the site vs the name of the project?
[01:25] <bodhizazen> sec cprofitt I have one more comment on license :)
[01:25] <bodhizazen> discussion on mailing list is fine BUT
[01:25] <cprofitt> please take the license discussion to the mailing list.
[01:25] <bodhizazen> and this is a BIG BUT
[01:26] <Vantrax> so having the name being something like Learn Ubuntu (as it is learn.ubuntu.com) with a tagline as ubuntu community learning etc
[01:26] <Vantrax> i think that was the naming bit
[01:26] <bodhizazen> 1. It is a technical discussion and please take the time to explain your postion / concerns
[01:27] <bodhizazen> 2. There seems to be some confusion about the issue and I am not sure I am understanding what doctomo is raising, his use of language is confusing at times
[01:27] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: please send a email to start the discussion with an outline of how it should be done, and reminding everyone of the Ubuntu CoC. I figure this will be a 'lively' debate
[01:27] <pleia2> to the lists.ubuntu.com list, please :)
[01:27] <bodhizazen> what to lists.ubuntu.com ?
[01:27] <pleia2> the email
[01:28] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I am looking for our meeting logs... we had agreed on a name...
[01:28] <cprofitt> but I do agree we need to rethink that now that we have the domain...
[01:28] <bodhizazen> OK, back on topic
[01:28] <cprofitt> I think sliding the name we had agreed on to the tag line is appropriate
[01:28] <cprofitt> I think that the agreed on name was "The Ubuntu Learning Project"
[01:28] <cprofitt> or some such...
[01:28] <bodhizazen> Vantrax was suggesting we use a different name for the moodle site itself
[01:28] <bodhizazen> so our team is called the UCLP
[01:29] <bodhizazen> but our moodle site is called ____
[01:29] <bodhizazen> something else
[01:29] <cprofitt> yes... Community was in there...
[01:29] <Vantrax> id like to note that the name of the site, and the name of the project do not have to be identical
[01:29]  * dthacker nods
[01:29] <Vantrax> and its a big ass name to put on a header
[01:29] <cprofitt> I would say Learn Ubuntu - tag line of Ubuntu Community Learning Project works
[01:29] <cprofitt> the longer name is too long...
[01:29] <cprofitt> for a 'branding' graphic
[01:30] <Vantrax> yeah, that was my opinion when trying to work on it:P
[01:30] <Vantrax> it also works well with the domain name
[01:30] <cprofitt> [VOTE] Use shorter name: Learn Ubuntu
[01:30] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Use shorter name: Learn Ubuntu.
[01:30] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[01:30] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[01:30] <cprofitt> +1
[01:30] <MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[01:30] <bodhizazen> so are we going to call the site Learn Ubuntu ?
[01:30] <bodhizazen> 0
[01:30] <Vantrax> +1
[01:30] <MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[01:31] <dthacker> who is eligible to vote?
[01:31] <Vantrax> that is the plan
[01:31] <bodhizazen> +0
[01:31] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhizazen. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[01:31] <cprofitt> anyone
[01:31] <Vantrax> go ahead dthacker
[01:31] <pleia2> +1
[01:31] <cprofitt> we are a community project...
[01:31] <bodhizazen> dthacker: those issues are on the agenda later , lol
[01:31] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[01:31] <dthacker> +1
[01:31] <MootBot> +1 received from dthacker. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[01:31] <Vantrax> this is a public meeting not a board meeting:P
[01:31] <cprofitt> any more votes
[01:31] <cprofitt> I will use Roberts Rules...
[01:31] <cprofitt> any more votes
[01:31] <cprofitt> any more votes
[01:31] <cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
[01:31] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
[01:32] <cprofitt> [AGREED] Site name: Learn Ubuntu
[01:32] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Site name: Learn Ubuntu
[01:32] <cprofitt> [ACTION] Vantrax and Doc to brand site as Learn Ubuntu
[01:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Vantrax and Doc to brand site as Learn Ubuntu
[01:32] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Content - How do these various teams contribute ? Each team gets a course ?
[01:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  Content - How do these various teams contribute ? Each team gets a course ?
[01:33] <pleia2> so, I don't really know how moodle works
[01:33] <bodhizazen> I do not think there will be a consensus on this next issue today
[01:33] <cprofitt> I would assume courses would be created in logical content groups.
[01:33] <bodhizazen> But I would like to start the discussion
[01:33] <cprofitt> Teams will have multiple courses most likely
[01:33] <pleia2> cprofitt: can you explain a bit about "users" and "content groups" and "courses" ?
[01:33] <Vantrax> im with cprofitt on that
[01:33] <cprofitt> I can not see limiting them to one course
[01:33] <Vantrax> cprofitt: mind if i jump in here?
[01:33] <cprofitt> well -- if you look at the site we have five areas now I think
[01:33] <cprofitt> sure Vantrax
[01:33] <dthacker> I'd suggest building block courses that build on each other.
[01:33] <cprofitt> I have used Moodle and seen it in use
[01:34] <bodhizazen> cprofitt: I think the question is how to add in a group ?
[01:34] <bodhizazen> Say the development / MOTU team
[01:34] <bodhizazen> are they a group ?
[01:34] <Vantrax> so, we have outlined programs at this stage, and courses that fit into programs based on logical topic groupings
[01:34] <bodhizazen> how does it work and how should we plan it ?
[01:34] <cprofitt> this is the company I have worked with -- http://www.professionallearningboard.com/
[01:34] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, no.
[01:35] <cprofitt> content is not grouped on what group creates it... but on how the 'student' will see it
[01:35] <Vantrax> different teams will have access to and maintain individual courses in the programs, with members from each of the groups forming a moderators group over a program
[01:35] <Vantrax> thats kinda the way I see that working
[01:36] <dthacker> plus one to Vantrax, but beware the orphan courses
[01:36] <cprofitt> in the case of development / MOTU there are development courses they may teach and course on using launchpad or subversion or other 'team' tools that they may author and instruct
[01:36] <Vantrax> from the student side its all one
[01:36] <Vantrax> dthacker: yes, we will have to deal with those, but very few of them will exist because the programs are very broad
[01:36] <cprofitt> we may also end up with non-motu developers teaching 'entry' programming courses
[01:36] <bodhizazen> OK, well some explanation / road map would help those not familiar with how moodle works
[01:36] <bodhizazen> I see this as a FAQ
[01:36] <pleia2> bodhizazen: +1
[01:36] <cprofitt> http://professionallearningboard.com/tsd/course/index.php
[01:36] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://professionallearningboard.com/tsd/course/index.php
[01:37] <Vantrax> i think bodhizazen is talking in terms of managing the content, as opposed to teaching
[01:37] <cprofitt> that is the Professional Learning Boards course catalog
[01:37] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, that is one of the things I am working on....
[01:37] <bodhizazen> OK
[01:37] <bodhizazen> well, that is what I wanted to understand
[01:38] <cprofitt> due to the nature of facilitated vs. self-study courses you may have two course covering the same material with a different structure and different course
[01:38] <bodhizazen> when say the wiki team wants to get involved, how do they do that ?
[01:38] <Vantrax> okies cprofitt and I will work on an FAQ about that
[01:38] <bodhizazen> we need to provide structure
[01:38] <Vantrax> +1 bodhizazen
[01:38] <cprofitt> the other thing is that if you have a course that is instructor lead you may have the 'same' course listed multiple times if we have multiple instructors...
[01:38] <bodhizazen> OK, thanks
[01:38] <cprofitt> I will try to work with Vantrax on the FAQ
[01:39] <bodhizazen> I think not everyone is fluent in how moodle works is all
[01:39] <bodhizazen> thanks
[01:39] <Vantrax> no, but were getting there
[01:39] <cprofitt> I agree bodhizazen
[01:39] <mogain> sorry I'm very late
[01:39] <cprofitt> I would like to have people be able to make 'test' courses on a test server and them move them to a production server when they are 'approved'
[01:39] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] ext steps? What still needs to be done before we can tell teams they can start using Moodle
[01:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  ext steps? What still needs to be done before we can tell teams they can start using Moodle
[01:40] <Vantrax> okies, so were up to pleia now?
[01:40] <bodhizazen> +1 cprofitt
[01:40] <dthacker> is instructor-led always a "live" course, such as one given in #ubuntu-classroom?
[01:40] <cprofitt> this ties in with what we just discussed...
[01:40] <bodhizazen> I can set up a test server
[01:40] <pleia2> so I've been talking with lots of teams
[01:40] <Vantrax> dthacker: yes
[01:40] <bodhizazen> at learn.bodhizazen.net
[01:40] <pleia2> some want to know when they can get a login and start going :)
[01:40] <pleia2> presumably the last thing we discussed will need to be sorted out, what else?
[01:40] <Vantrax> If i can revisit the roadmap
[01:40] <cprofitt> IMHO we need to provide several example courses - some of the ones I uploaded can serve that function.
[01:40] <bodhizazen> We need to discuss tema membership and governance as well pleia2
[01:40] <pleia2> I've just been chugging away with classroom lately, haven't been doing much specific -learning stuff aside from talking with other ubuntu teams
[01:40] <Vantrax> Were getting the main site themed and the development site up and running
[01:41] <bodhizazen> who can contribute ?
[01:41] <cprofitt> then we need to have all prospective 'authors' and instructors take the one course on Moodle I uploaded
[01:41] <mogain> Vantrax: +1, can't really do much untilt he site is themed right
[01:41] <cprofitt> then I would want each prospective author (author team - you can have multiple authors)
[01:41] <cprofitt> submit a course proposal
[01:41] <Vantrax> anyone who wants to add stuff can take the courses that cprofitt mentioned and get stuck into doing some testing on the sandbox
[01:42] <cprofitt> and we would want to 'accept' the proposal (how to be determined)
[01:42] <pleia2> Vantrax: ok, cool
[01:42] <Vantrax> once the theme is done we are going to make an announcement and get more input into our courses as shown on the wiki
[01:42] <cprofitt> and then have them build it on the sandbox
[01:42] <bodhizazen> We should set up a sandbox and a wiki page we can point prospective teacher to , lol
[01:42] <pleia2> bodhizazen: yes :)
[01:42] <Vantrax> then we will start building
[01:42] <cprofitt> have it reviewed on the sandbox and approved for production
[01:42] <cprofitt> does that make sense?
[01:42] <bodhizazen> yes
[01:42] <pleia2> sounds good
[01:42] <Vantrax> Approval done by who
[01:42] <bodhizazen> we need to communicate is all
[01:42] <cprofitt> TDB Vantrax
[01:42] <Vantrax> by moderators for the program?
[01:42] <cprofitt> we need to build that team structure
[01:42] <Vantrax> or by us more centrally?
[01:43] <cprofitt> I would really like to have some 'educators' here to help us...
[01:43] <pleia2> I think it's too big of a job for us
[01:43] <dthacker> some courses will require techical review for accuracy.
[01:43] <cprofitt> in addition we need to ensure accuracy and relevance
[01:43] <Vantrax> i was about to say that pleia2
[01:43] <bodhizazen> I think it shall start centrally, but it needs to grow beyond that
[01:43] <Vantrax> same as CC did
[01:43] <cprofitt> How does the forum staff pick the tutorials?
[01:43] <mogain> Think about decentralisation
[01:43] <bodhizazen> we do not pick them
[01:44] <cprofitt> I thought there was one area of the forum in which tutorials were reviewed and accepted...
[01:44] <bodhizazen> they are submitted and they are reviewed b4 they are approved
[01:44] <cprofitt> no?
[01:44] <Vantrax> i figure each program will have a group that takes care of standards for that program made out of the contributing groups
[01:44] <cprofitt> how are they 'approved' then?
[01:44] <Vantrax> so some motu, some doc guys, some dev guys etc
[01:44] <bodhizazen> it is getting more difficult as they are becoming more and more techincal
[01:44] <cprofitt> I would imagine our process will be similar bodhizazen
[01:44] <Vantrax> someone really has to run through them and test
[01:44] <bodhizazen> If so I can help structure that
[01:44] <cprofitt> although relevance to our efforts will likely be a key too
[01:45] <cprofitt> I agree bodhizazen
[01:45] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] We need to develop team governance.
[01:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  We need to develop team governance.
[01:45] <cprofitt> and that segues in to this topic
[01:45] <bodhizazen> Well this fits in with the rest of the discussion
[01:45] <bodhizazen> We need to stop a minute :)
[01:45] <cprofitt> I do think we need to build the team structure soon so we can move forward in an organized manner
[01:45] <bodhizazen> we are growing too fast
[01:46] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: +1
[01:46] <Vantrax> well, we are about to
[01:46] <bodhizazen> we need at least an outline of how someone becomes a member
[01:46] <Vantrax> were at the tipping poing
[01:46] <bodhizazen> and how to resolve conflict
[01:46] <Vantrax> point
[01:46] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, +1
[01:46] <bodhizazen> for those not familiar with the BT we have a membership route
[01:47] <dthacker> the community has many templates for conduct and governance that can be adopted
[01:47] <bodhizazen> I suggest we adopt something like that with this team
[01:47] <bodhizazen> dthacker: that is not the problem
[01:47] <cprofitt> I agree... I think we need to have a meeting of the board after we have a vigorous discussion on the mailing list.
[01:47] <Vantrax> dthacker: yep, we will be adopting them, its more structural
[01:47] <bodhizazen> the problem is - who decides who is a member of the team ?
[01:47] <Vantrax> I guess the board to start with, people have been grandfathered in up to now
[01:47] <pleia2> so far it's been at the decretion of the board
[01:48] <mogain> What are the reasons for exluding people from being members, that's the first question./
[01:48] <bodhizazen> May I suggest we start by using voice on #ubuntu-learning to identify members ?
[01:48] <pleia2> we approve people who we feel can be valueable contributors, or who have proven themselves to be
[01:48] <cprofitt> Vantrax, there has been little to no reason for some being accepted and others left on the vine
[01:48] <cprofitt> we really need that process ironed out...
[01:48] <bodhizazen> mogain: well, not exclude per se
[01:48] <dthacker> so it's not possible for someone to just join the team and contribute?
[01:48] <Vantrax> +1 cprofitt, its been very hap hazzard
[01:48] <bodhizazen> more make sure they know how to integrate into the team
[01:48] <bodhizazen> no I think not dthacker
[01:48] <cprofitt> I do not want people to level accusations of favoritism or indifference
[01:48] <Vantrax> dthacker: it is, but we want to have the launchpad team showing contributors
[01:49] <Vantrax> as opposed to anyone who visits
[01:49] <cprofitt> so we need to discuss the overall process (mailing list) and then vote on it next meeting.
[01:49] <mogain> I would not want us to be so exlusionary, people have to be given the chance to prove themselves a reputation and they can't do that in this modle.
[01:49] <Vantrax> so being part of the team is an acknowladgement of effort that has meaning
[01:49] <bodhizazen> The team is open, but bringing someone on board and getting the team running  is different'
[01:49] <cprofitt> I agree with bodhizazen we need to have a process for becoming a member, and a guide for new / prospective members as to what is required of a member
[01:49] <pleia2> there have been exceptions, I am going to use popey as an example since he knows he's awesome and won't be bothered :) he was added to the team because we know his work and feel he could be a valueable contributor, not because of his involvement
[01:49] <bodhizazen> that is not the point mogain :)
[01:50] <cprofitt> mogain, Moodle is not the only avenue for contribution.
[01:50] <bodhizazen> may I outline my concerns for those not involved with the BT ?
[01:50] <cprofitt> certainly bodhizazen but we may have to move some of the other items to the next meeting
[01:50] <Vantrax> please do bodhizazen
[01:51] <Vantrax> just keep it short:P
[01:51] <bodhizazen> Basically, a team is a group
[01:51] <bodhizazen> working together
[01:51] <bodhizazen> so, when people want to join
[01:51] <dthacker> bodhizazen: please do, beacuse it sound more like a private club
[01:51] <bodhizazen> we need 2 or 3 things
[01:51] <bodhizazen> 1. Most team members want a meet and greet
[01:51] <bodhizazen> ie wiki page, who are they ?
[01:51] <bodhizazen> not everyone knows who popey is :)
[01:52] <bodhizazen> 2. We need people to be brought into the tema
[01:52] <Vantrax> dthacker: we want everyone to be involved, however we also want a way to acknowladge contributors.
[01:52] <bodhizazen> they need a basic education on how both moodle works and how the team functions
[01:52] <cprofitt> dthacker, our process would be more like bug-control; people have to provide some samples that they know the process...
[01:52] <bodhizazen> otherwise they get lost
[01:52]  * dthacker nods at cproffit
[01:52] <bodhizazen> 3. We need to make sure someone is not potentially disruptive
[01:53] <bodhizazen> for example
[01:53] <cprofitt> we do not want people to be a member and not have the 'skill' or 'commitment'
[01:53] <bodhizazen> we have young people on the BT
[01:53] <bodhizazen> they mean well, but they become disruptive and need to be managed
[01:53] <Vantrax> dthacker: you might want to read up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
[01:53] <bodhizazen> so I am not proposing we exclude people
[01:53]  * dthacker bookmarks
[01:53] <bodhizazen> jsu tthe opposite
[01:54] <bodhizazen> we play to bring them into the fold
[01:54] <bodhizazen> in an organized fashon
[01:54] <bodhizazen> make them feel welcome
[01:54] <Vantrax> dthacker: its slightly out of date, but we used that to help explain it to CC:P
[01:54] <bodhizazen>  /end rant :)
[01:54] <mogain> bodhizazen: It might be worth having some simple layers, members of the learning group and committors who can access the moodle stuff.
[01:54] <bodhizazen> yea, +1
[01:54] <dthacker> bodhizazen: mentorship?
[01:54] <bodhizazen> this project has grown too fast
[01:54] <Vantrax> definately
[01:54] <cprofitt> Lets move this to the mailing list as well...
[01:54] <bodhizazen> dthacker: that is what we do on the BT
[01:54] <cprofitt> I do think we will likely need a structure similar to bug-control
[01:54] <Vantrax> dthacker: people to help new people wanting to contribute learn how
[01:55] <bodhizazen> cprofitt: no I do not think we should move this to the mailing list without some basic decision here tonight :)
[01:55] <cprofitt> there are also going to be some different roles... course testers would be a valid role though they may not have the technical knowledge
[01:55] <Vantrax> cprofitt: yep
[01:55] <cprofitt> a basic decision here tonight... what do you suggest we decide?
[01:56] <pleia2> perhaps some of the basic roles that people can shoot for to gain membership?
[01:56] <bodhizazen> I think we need to decide a very basic process
[01:56] <bodhizazen> +1 pleia2
[01:56] <bodhizazen> a starting point
[01:56] <mogain> Or even what membership means
[01:56] <Vantrax> i think we use the structure in the strategy document as a starting point, then look at what other groups we need, and what the standard is
[01:56] <bodhizazen> we are going to either grow too fast or loose people if we do nto agree to some basic structure
[01:56] <Vantrax> or why people want to be members:P
[01:56] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, can you link to a suggested basic structure?
[01:56] <bodhizazen> sec ...
[01:57] <cprofitt> I do not think we have time to hash it all out in IRC
[01:57] <Vantrax> no, that will go to the mailing list
[01:57] <bodhizazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team/FocusGroups/Padawan
[01:57] <bodhizazen> I needs to be adapted
[01:57] <Vantrax> btw CProfitt I think its fair enough  if you take the lead on the Course Structure
[01:57] <bodhizazen> to our needs :)
[01:58] <cprofitt> I think we can agree that we will have a tiered structure... and we need to have a discussion on what that will be...
[01:58] <Vantrax> i think everything else will get bumpped, but that should be sorted
[01:58] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: the voice in channel idea is a good one, and I agree with that
[01:58] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Structure
[01:58] <bodhizazen> How about if we work on a welcome page
[01:58] <bodhizazen> for this team
[01:58] <bodhizazen> to be included :
[01:59] <pleia2> do we need a real mentoring structure for this?
[01:59] <bodhizazen> 1. Membership process
[01:59] <bodhizazen> I think yes pleia2
[01:59] <bodhizazen> 2. roles ?
[01:59] <bodhizazen> mentoring can be short
[01:59] <Vantrax> pleia2 not in terms of technical mentoring, but in getting people involved and active
[01:59] <bodhizazen> some people "get it" very very fast
[01:59]  * pleia2 nods
[01:59] <bodhizazen> others need a little more guidacne
[01:59] <Vantrax> so they have a person they know they can go to with question
[02:00] <pleia2> I just don't want to make involvement difficult
[02:00]  * dthacker suggests letting the forms of contributing gel before putting structure up. He also notes that CoC should handle any immature or disruptive folks.
[02:00] <bodhizazen> +1 Vantrax
[02:00] <Vantrax> dthacker: +1
[02:00] <mogain> +1 dthacker
[02:00] <bodhizazen> pleia2: well the idea is not to put up barriers , but tear them down
[02:00] <Vantrax> that is the plan
[02:00] <pleia2> if someone is a teacher they could be given the infrastructure tour, some basic guidelines, and sent on their way to help out, I think
[02:00] <pleia2> we can call that "mentoring" I suppose
[02:00] <Vantrax> we just want to have a basic idea first dthacker because this will grow very fast
[02:00] <bodhizazen> exactly pleia2
[02:01] <pleia2> but it seems to me that it's more like how anyone enters any project, by reading the rules and jumping in :)
[02:01] <bodhizazen> but we should make an effort to get them comfortable ASAP
[02:01] <cprofitt> I am comfortable voting on agreeing that we need a structure for membership and welcoming new members to the 'team'
[02:01] <Vantrax> yep
[02:01] <bodhizazen> and voice ?
[02:01] <cprofitt> I think we need to work at the structure a bit...
[02:01] <bodhizazen> vote on voice ?
[02:01] <Vantrax> yeah vote on that
[02:01] <bodhizazen> How about starting a wiki page on team structure
[02:01] <Vantrax> just as an identifier
[02:02] <pleia2> cprofitt: I think I like "structure for membership and welcoming new members" more than "mentoring"
[02:02] <bodhizazen> as with everything else it can be a document in progerss
[02:02] <pleia2> mentoring just seems like a different thing to me
[02:02] <Vantrax> pleia yeah, naming can be changed
[02:02] <cprofitt> [VOTE] Should a draft team structure be started; including a membership process and welcome for new members
[02:02] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Should a draft team structure be started; including a membership process and welcome for new members.
[02:02] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[02:02] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[02:02] <pleia2> ok, just so we're on the same page :)
[02:02] <Vantrax> +1
[02:02] <MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[02:02] <cprofitt> +1
[02:02] <MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[02:02] <doctormo> +1
[02:02] <MootBot> +1 received from doctormo. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[02:02] <pleia2> +1
[02:02] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[02:02] <bodhizazen> +1
[02:02] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[02:02] <dthacker> +1
[02:02] <MootBot> +1 received from dthacker. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[02:03] <cprofitt> anymore votes?
[02:03] <cprofitt> anymore votes?
[02:03] <cprofitt> are there any last votes?
[02:03] <cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
[02:03] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
[02:03] <bodhizazen> vote on voice in #ubutnu-learning :)
[02:03] <dthacker> what is voice?
[02:03] <cprofitt> [AGREED] Draft structure page to be created - bodhizazen will initiate the page and others will contribute
[02:03] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Draft structure page to be created - bodhizazen will initiate the page and others will contribute
[02:03] <bodhizazen> voice can be used for many things
[02:04] <bodhizazen> usually to moderate a channel
[02:04] <cprofitt> [ACTION] bodhizazen to create draft structure page
[02:04] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bodhizazen to create draft structure page
[02:04] <bodhizazen> but we can use voice to identify members, which may be helpful
[02:04] <Vantrax> dthacker: join #ubuntu-beginners
[02:04] <cprofitt> [VOTE] Should voice in #ubuntu-learning be used as a 'sign' of membership in the team?
[02:04] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Should voice in #ubuntu-learning be used as a 'sign' of membership in the team?.
[02:04] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[02:04] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[02:04] <Vantrax> you will see instantly who are memebers
[02:04] <Vantrax> +1
[02:04] <MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[02:04] <bodhizazen> +1
[02:04] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhizazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[02:04] <pleia2> +0
[02:04] <MootBot> Abstention received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[02:04] <cprofitt> +0
[02:04] <MootBot> Abstention received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[02:04] <doctormo> +0
[02:04] <MootBot> Abstention received from doctormo. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
[02:04] <dthacker> +0
[02:04] <MootBot> Abstention received from dthacker. 2 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 2
[02:05] <cprofitt> to explain I would prefer not to draw distinction until we have the structure more mature
[02:05] <bodhizazen> I understand
[02:05] <cprofitt> any more votes
[02:05] <bodhizazen> but people show up on the channel wanting information
[02:05] <Vantrax> cprofitt: +1
[02:05] <cprofitt> any more votes
[02:05] <bodhizazen> and no one knows who to ask
[02:05] <cprofitt> any more votes
[02:05] <cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
[02:05] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 2
[02:05] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: +1 that is my resoning
[02:06] <bodhizazen> cprofitt: ?
[02:06] <cprofitt> Not sure how our process carries that vote...
[02:06] <dthacker> bodhizazen: I'll tell them what I know and try to refer them to the right person if I don't know.
[02:06] <bodhizazen> yea, that helps too dthacker
[02:06] <cprofitt> in most rules that would not pass...
[02:06] <cprofitt> so I am not going to pass it, but we do not have formal voting rules
[02:07] <Vantrax> let it drop, board can institute it later
[02:07] <bodhizazen> As you can tell form a recurring theme, I think it helps to create some structure to all this
[02:07] <bodhizazen> he he he ...
[02:07] <Vantrax> lol
[02:07] <pleia2> I'm not a huge fan of drawing the voice distinction at all (whatever you say, people on irc like having a little thing next to their nick), so will probably abstain from saying yes to it at all, but I see the merit in theory :)
[02:07] <cprofitt> #endmeeting ubuntu-learning all other topics tabled until next meeting
[02:07] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:07.
[02:07] <bodhizazen> Team governance needs te be worked out :)
[02:07] <Vantrax> okies people back to #ubuntu-learning please
[02:07] <doctormo> The vine doth not grow into the air unaided :-P and all the jazz
[02:07] <pleia2> thanks guys
[02:07] <bodhizazen> I hve to run :)
[02:07] <bodhizazen> nex tmeeting ?
[02:08] <cprofitt> two weeks from now bodhizazen
[02:08] <cprofitt> I hope...
[02:08] <pleia2> we might shift the time some though
[02:08] <cprofitt> that was our original plan - every two weeks...
[02:08] <pleia2> going to encourage more folks to fill out the doodle poll :)
[02:08] <cprofitt> yes, we might need to shift time so greg-g can be with us
[02:08] <pleia2> and other -eu people
[02:08] <pleia2> well, greg-g is -us
[02:09] <Vantrax> out of the meeting channel pleasE:P
[14:57] <mdz> cjwatson: Keybuk: whose turn is it to chair?
[14:59] <cjwatson> Scott chaired 05-05 and 06-02, I was just looking up when I last chaired
[14:59] <cjwatson> it's probably my turn
[14:59] <jamesrfla> Is this the Ubuntu server meeting starting now?
[15:00] <cjwatson> no, technical board
[15:00] <cjwatson> mdz: is sabdfl going to be here?
[15:00] <mdz> cjwatson: I do not expect him
[15:00] <cjwatson> mdz: technically, Keybuk is not currently on the boar
[15:00] <cjwatson> d
[15:01] <mdz> cjwatson: if that's the case, then we have the support of 2/3 of the remaining board to extend his membership until we can hold a vote ;-)
[15:01] <cjwatson> :-)
[15:01] <cjwatson> Keybuk: <summon>
[15:01] <cjwatson> all right, I didn't see any minutes posted from the last meeting, but I have the IRC log here
[15:01] <cjwatson> 15:56 <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
[15:01] <cjwatson> err, hmm
[15:01] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is cjwatson.
[15:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:02] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions
[15:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions
[15:02] <cjwatson> 15:56 <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
[15:02] <mdz> I spoke to Kiko about this directly after the previous meeting
[15:02] <mdz> he said that it only affected spec approvals and nominations, but that he would investigate and give me a more authoritative answer
[15:03] <mdz> checking if I"ve heard back...
[15:03] <mdz> I got a mail from bdmurray pointing out that he believes it controls:
[15:03] <mdz> The ability to set package bug guidelines.
[15:03] <mdz> The ability to set official bug tags.
[15:03] <cjwatson> what does that mean for our overall goal? the agenda item is "document, restructure, or retire"
[15:03] <mdz> cjwatson: that means we are still stalled on a lack of information.  I will continue to chase it with kiko (and have just reminded him on IRC)
[15:04] <cjwatson> we should document what we have so far in a manner more permanent than IRC logs
[15:04] <mdz> all we have so far are guesses
[15:04] <mdz> I'll put it into email along with a direct inquiry to the LP team
[15:05] <cjwatson> [ACTION] mdz to continue investigation of drivers powers with LP team, and document results
[15:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to continue investigation of drivers powers with LP team, and document results
[15:05] <cjwatson> ?
[15:05] <mdz> ok
[15:05] <cjwatson> excuse me a moment while I call Scott; I know he often doesn't pay close attention to IRC while he's working
[15:06] <Keybuk> hello ;)-
[15:06] <cjwatson> righto, I thought we might want more for this bit
[15:06] <cjwatson> 16:00 <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to begin mono discussion on ML
[15:06] <Keybuk> was elbow deep up D-Bus's bum
[15:06] <cjwatson> I'm afraid I entirely failed to start this
[15:07] <cjwatson> that said, ubuntu-devel-discuss has been doing it for me at enormous length
[15:07] <Keybuk> the content of the ubuntu-devel-discuss discussion was pretty much the reason we talked about having an authorative TB-led debate on the topic
[15:08] <cjwatson> I think the most recent version of this discussion started after that, but yes
[15:08] <Hobbsee> oh dear.  Can i get the subject line of it now, so I can /dev/null the next flamewar?
[15:08] <cjwatson> well, why don't we spend 10/15 minutes on it on IRC, since I think we have some space
[15:09] <cjwatson> this somewhat ties into the patent policy direction we have been given by sabdfl, indicating that we will act on cease-and-desist notices but not on rumours
[15:09] <mdz> if it's about the alleged IP claims, I think the recent patent policy discussion provides useful guidance
[15:10] <mdz> I haven't followed the discussion, and am a little bit confused about why it's timely
[15:10] <mdz> we've been shipping mono for ages
[15:10] <cjwatson> it's not timely :-)
[15:11] <mdz> since 7.04 at the latest
[15:11] <mdz> is it because the subject has come up in Debian?
[15:11] <cjwatson> but for whatever reason it's a matter of significant community debate at the moment, and seems to fall within the "issue of the day" stuff we talked about at UDS
[15:12] <persia_> Some portions of the debate seem to be related to the reasons that specific software is included.  Perhaps the process for inclusion/disclusion of specific applications could be made more clear?
[15:12] <persia_> (I'm assuming we ship Mono because it's a dependency of stuff we want. rather than from a specific desire to ship Mono)
[15:13] <mdz> Mono itself isn't very useful apart from being able to run Mono programs :-)
[15:13] <cjwatson> right, we've generally taken the attitude that we will ship the best available applications (assuming that we can do so within our licensing guidelines
[15:13] <cjwatson> )
[15:13] <mdz> the best available free software applications
[15:13] <cjwatson> => licensing guidelines :-)
[15:13] <mdz> in the judgement of the relevant development team(s)
[15:13] <cjwatson> I think I agree that to people outside the Ubuntu development team, the process is a little bit opaque
[15:14] <Keybuk> this is another area in which the TB was originally intended to take leadership where the actual decisions have been taken lower down
[15:14] <cjwatson> we don't do this kind of selection very often, and it's often within a relatively small group out of necessity to come to something resembling consensus
[15:14] <mdz> I wouldn't mind making this delegation of authority explicit
[15:14] <Keybuk> perhaps having official app sanction on the TB agenda, even if it's just developers making the decisions in this meeting, might help to make the process more transparent?
[15:14] <mdz> e.g. the desktop team is responsible for deciding on the default desktop applications
[15:15] <persia_> Keybuk, That sounds very transparent, and something that can be used in discussion.  It is probably worth adding a note that only developers in the relevant area should add such items to the agenda.
[15:15] <mdz> Keybuk: i'd be worried about creating a bottleneck
[15:15] <mdz> "we're agreed on making this change, but we have to wait for the next tech board meeting (or get the tech board to sign off or whatever) before we can do it"
[15:15] <Keybuk> mdz: another option would be an official delegation as you suggest
[15:16] <cjwatson> there isn't even anything on UbuntuDevelopment about this
[15:16] <Keybuk> where part of the delegate responsibilities would be to mail selections to the list
[15:16] <persia_> mdz, Perhaps approval would only be needed within the cycle, rather than prior to the change?
[15:16] <Keybuk> the list being ubuntu-devel or somesuch
[15:16] <mdz> I think discussion on ubuntu-devel@ is more useful (and transparent) than a TB meeting anyway
[15:16] <mdz> desktop -> desktop team, server -> server team, UNR -> mobile team
[15:17] <cjwatson> the patent policy discussion wasn't written up in minutes anywhere, as far as I can see
[15:17] <cjwatson> which I think was my fault, since I chaired that meeting
[15:17] <cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/04/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[15:17] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/04/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[15:17] <cjwatson> hmm, no, that didn't have the policy discussion
[15:18] <mdz> in any case, it needs to get written up
[15:18] <mdz> do we have any volunteers?
[15:18] <cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/03/24/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[15:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/03/24/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[15:18] <cjwatson> mdz: you were chair :)
[15:19] <mdz> cjwatson: ok, I'll take the action
[15:19] <cjwatson> [ACTION] mdz to write up patent policy minutes from 2009-03-24 meeting
[15:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to write up patent policy minutes from 2009-03-24 meeting
[15:20] <cjwatson> one question that comes to mind when considering this is the extricability of the contentious technology
[15:20] <mdz> mono is highly extricable at the moment
[15:20] <cjwatson> right now, Mono would be relatively easy for us to extract if we were put in a position where we had to
[15:20] <cjwatson> aside from the business of it being on physical media
[15:21] <cjwatson> but it's not like it's implementing, say, gnome-system-tools
[15:21] <Keybuk> even if it were, it wouldn't be that much of a hardship
[15:21] <cjwatson> or gnome-panel
[15:21] <Keybuk> and there's a ski slope issue ;)
[15:21] <Keybuk> ie. the first time you approve an app, it's highly extricable
[15:21] <Keybuk> the second time, it still is
[15:21] <Keybuk> the third time it isn't so much
[15:21] <Keybuk> and suddenly you don't approve the tenth app because there's nine others
[15:22] <Keybuk> and the developer is thinking "but there's nine other apps using mono!"
[15:23] <cjwatson> is this something for which we need to issue guidelines, or is the fact that upstream GNOME folks are pretty conservative about non-C implementations on the whole sufficient protection?
[15:23] <mdz> the person with the lion's share of liability for any IP claim is sabdfl, and he's been pretty explicit about what sort of risk he will accept
[15:23] <mdz> I don't think the question of ripping it out came up
[15:25] <cjwatson> as far as putting Mono in the desktop core goes, I would tend to say that the reasons not to do so are technical not IP; if we're talking about the desktop having a small number of seconds of budget to start, having to start up a language VM is going to put a dent in that even if Mono is blazingly fast once running
[15:25] <mdz> cjwatson: I don't see a need for guidelines in that area
[15:25] <cjwatson> and that that is likely to be a natural restriction that the TB doesn't need to set down
[15:25] <cjwatson> so in that case, can we simply put it out there that the TB does not have a current concern with the IP status of Mono?
[15:26] <cjwatson> and relate that explicitly to our patent policy
[15:26] <mdz> cjwatson: yes
[15:26] <cjwatson> I'll do that as part of the minutes of this meeting, then
[15:26] <cjwatson> 16:00 <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz and sabdfl to review archive reorg mail sent on 29 April
[15:26] <mdz> thanks
[15:26] <LaserJock> cjwatson: wouldn't the ski slope argument though make the VM hit less concerning? i.e. the more apps you get for starting the VM the less of an issue it is?
[15:26] <cjwatson> sabdfl replied, and mdz said I could go ahead, so I've sent that mail out
[15:27] <mdz> I've since read it as well, and am happy with it
[15:27] <cjwatson> LaserJock: I believe the VM has to initialise once per app
[15:27] <cjwatson> I may be wrong, haven't checked
[15:28] <mdz> a point of order: we have a bunch more agenda items, and only 30 minutes left
[15:28] <cjwatson> we do indeed. that's the last of the outstanding actions
[15:28] <cjwatson> err, much of the stuff on the agenda I believe we dealt with last time
[15:28] <cjwatson> IRC council, ffmpeg, ubuntu-drivers I believe are all handled
[15:28] <cjwatson> unless there are any objections I'll remove those
[15:28] <mdz> right, some stuff was added at the end
[15:29] <cjwatson> Edubuntu Releases for Karmic and Karmic+1 and hosting on Canonical infrastructure (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
[15:29] <cjwatson> whoops
[15:29] <Keybuk> cjwatson: Mono is faster than Python ;)
[15:29] <Keybuk> just saying
[15:29] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Releases for Karmic and Karmic+1 and hosting on Canonical infrastructure (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
[15:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Edubuntu Releases for Karmic and Karmic+1 and hosting on Canonical infrastructure (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
[15:29] <mdz> there's also a core-dev application from james-w which isn't on there
[15:29] <cjwatson> LaserJock,highvoltage,stgraber: here?
[15:29] <LaserJock> I am
[15:30] <cjwatson> would one of you like to introduce this?
[15:30] <LaserJock> I guess I can start out
[15:30] <stgraber> here too
[15:30] <LaserJock> Edubuntu has been going through a "revitalization" in the last couple months
[15:30] <LaserJock> with lots of new potential contributors
[15:30] <LaserJock> and a real rethinking of what Edubuntu is and should be
[15:31] <LaserJock> one of the big issues that has come up is that the current situation of Edubuntu being an Addon CD to Ubuntu is not really working out
[15:31] <mdz> LaserJock: how so?
[15:31] <LaserJock> Edubuntu started out as a single CD, went to a 2 CD set, and then dropped the install CD and left that to Ubunu Alternate
[15:32] <LaserJock> well, we get lots of complaints from people either not knowing how to install stuff
[15:32] <LaserJock> or not wanting to have to use 2 installation media
[15:32] <LaserJock> our main audience has been schools
[15:32] <LaserJock> and they want easy installation on multiple computers
[15:33] <cjwatson> there were two major reasons to move to the add-on CD scheme, as I recall
[15:33] <LaserJock> also an example is ZaReason, which sells computers with pre-installed Edubuntu
[15:33] <mdz> both of those sound like technical issues which could be worked on
[15:33] <cjwatson> the first was to try to keep testing requirements under control
[15:33] <LaserJock> I contacted them about what Edubuntu could do to help them and they said their #1 request would be to have a single installation medium
[15:33] <cjwatson> the second was that we needed a second CD *anyway*, and the first was all but a duplicate of the normal alternate CD
[15:33] <LaserJock> right
[15:33] <cjwatson> (because the number of applications desired was greater than would fit)
[15:34] <cjwatson> at the time, DVDs were not considered practical, particularly by non-US educators
[15:34] <LaserJock> we want to put more and more Education material on
[15:34] <LaserJock> right now we're at ~350MB for the Addon CD
[15:34] <LaserJock> so we'd be around 1GB total
[15:34] <ogra> make a usb image :)
[15:34] <cjwatson> I was just about to say, I wonder if switching to USB would be practical nowadays
[15:35] <mdz> ogra: let's hold of on solutions until LaserJock has explained what he's here for
[15:35] <pygi> ogra: you're doing diversions :p
[15:35] <mdz> s/of/off/
[15:35] <LaserJock> right
[15:35] <stgraber> anyway, I guess the main point here was to discuss being able to use universe for edubuntu
[15:35] <stgraber> and so getting more contributors from MOTU
[15:35] <LaserJock> so many of the up-and-coming contributors who want to make Edubuntu happen basically said that it would be a waste of their time unless there was a USB/DVD image
[15:36] <LaserJock> as they feel the issue is big enough to be a big roadblock to Edubuntu adoption
[15:36] <LaserJock> for me personally, I remember the days of ogra spending long nights testing .isos
[15:36] <LaserJock> and I don't take the idea of going back to being a full distro lightly
[15:37] <LaserJock> but it has been a big complaint from users and I think adoption has been significantly hurt by the Addon CD
[15:37] <LaserJock> so the suggestion is to move to a USB/DVD image
[15:37] <cjwatson> stgraber: universe appears to be a second agenda item
[15:37] <stgraber> cjwatson: oh right :)
[15:38] <LaserJock> a big problem with doing a USB/DVD is hosting space
[15:38] <mdz> LaserJock: so to come back to  the topic...what is the issue you're bringing to the TB?
[15:38] <LaserJock> Edubuntu got dropped from releases.ubuntu.com to cdimage.ubuntu.com for Jaunty
[15:38] <cjwatson> so, whoa a moment
[15:39] <cjwatson> releases.ubuntu.com vs. cdimage.ubuntu.com has nothing to do with whether an image is "official" or not, or anything like that
[15:39] <mdz> and they are both Canonical infrastructure
[15:39] <LaserJock> no, but we lose mirroring
[15:39] <cjwatson> indeed
[15:39] <cjwatson> but our mirrors are constrained, and we can't help that
[15:39] <cjwatson> we have to take the decision purely on popularity
[15:39] <LaserJock> sure
[15:39] <mdz> LaserJock: or to look at it another way, the mirrors gain some disk space back
[15:40] <LaserJock> for me I guess I just wanted some guidance from the TB and to say "hey, this is what we're thinking of doing, does that sound like a good idea"
[15:40] <cjwatson> there's an ubuntu-mirrors list; perhaps it would be appropriate to ask there and find out if some mirror administrators would be happy to mirror Edubuntu off cdimage
[15:40] <mdz> this is purely a matter of how we manage finite (and mostly volunteer) resources
[15:40] <LaserJock> right
[15:40] <cjwatson> a number of people already mirror cdimage in toto
[15:41] <LaserJock> we've had some offers for mirroring as well
[15:41] <LaserJock> so I don't think cdimage vs releases is a big deal
[15:41] <mdz> LaserJock: my feeling about releases and cdimage is that we should make that decision based on infrastructure considerations
[15:41] <mdz> i.e. the bits which get downloaded the most should go on releases
[15:41] <mdz> bits which don't get downloaded as much should go on cdimage
[15:41] <LaserJock> but the bigger issue is that we'd be introducing a new DVD / USB image
[15:41] <cjwatson> I don't see a reason to be hung up on the add-on CD implementation if it isn't working, and if there's something else that would solve the original problems too and would work out better
[15:42] <cjwatson> any new image introduced would, I think, have to supersede previous ones
[15:42] <LaserJock> another issue we've had is the lack of any type of demonstration CD
[15:42] <LaserJock> for advocacy to schools people often request some sort of way to demo Edubuntu via a LiveCD
[15:43] <cjwatson> if we're drifting around Edubuntu topics, can we move on to the second agenda item in the cause of keeping our agenda under control?
[15:43] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Inclusion of universe within Edubuntu (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
[15:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  Inclusion of universe within Edubuntu (JordanMantha, JonathanCarter, StephaneGraber)
[15:43] <LaserJock> no, that was a motivation for ditching the Addon Cd
[15:43] <cjwatson> I don't want to cut you short but we have only 17 minutes :)
[15:43] <mdz> can we close on the mirroring question?
[15:43] <LaserJock> but I'm happy with what you guys have said
[15:43] <cjwatson> and two core-dev applications to fit in two
[15:43] <cjwatson> too
[15:43] <mdz> to try to enumerate the issues so far:
[15:45] <mdz> 1. placement of education/edubuntu bits for distribution (releases vs. cdimage) - this should be based on infrastructure concerns, and is not intended as a status consideration
[15:45] <mdz> 2. format of education/edubuntu distribution media - I'm happy for the edubuntu team and ubuntu-cdimage to work that out between them
[15:46] <mdz> 3. universe - ?
[15:46] <mdz> LaserJock: what's the question her?
[15:46] <mdz> here?
[15:46] <stgraber> ok, so universe
[15:46] <cjwatson> let's defer a more in-depth discussion on that to next week, perhaps?
[15:46] <LaserJock> We've had real issues with trying to expand our Education selections. We have the smallest app selection of any of the main Edu-focused distros
[15:46] <stgraber> currently edubuntu is main only, we'd like to also include universe packages
[15:46] <cjwatson> I have a feeling it will take up most of our remaining 14 minutes, and don't want to short-change the applicants
[15:47] <LaserJock> basically we just want to be able to use Universe to build an .iso as well, similar to Xubuntu et. al
[15:47] <cjwatson> if I'm pressed for a five-second answer I'd say "yes"
[15:47] <cjwatson> [VOTE] Edubuntu to be permitted to build with universe
[15:47] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Edubuntu to be permitted to build with universe.
[15:47] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:47] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:47] <cjwatson> +1
[15:47] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:47] <mdz> +1
[15:47] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:48] <cjwatson> (I think it's pretty clear that it can be considered in the same light as Xubuntu et al nowadays)
[15:48] <mdz> (mumble mumble archive reorg)
[15:48] <LaserJock> right
[15:49] <mdz> Keybuk() = -1 (ETIMEDOUT)
[15:49] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:49] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
[15:49] <LaserJock> thanks for considering our items, I just didn't want Edubuntu to launch into a new direction without getting input from the TB
[15:49] <stgraber> I guess we'll add another agenda item for the next TB meeting to discuss Canonical support for education apps as AFAIK it's still advertised as supported somewhere on ubuntu.com
[15:49] <cjwatson> ok, thanks :) please get in touch with ubuntu-cdimage to implement that
[15:49] <LaserJock> cjwatson: will do
[15:49] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Core Developer application for Stéphane Graber
[15:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer application for Stéphane Graber
[15:49] <LaserJock> \o/
[15:50] <mdz> stgraber: thanks for the reminder
[15:50]  * ogra cheers loudly
[15:50] <mdz> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
[15:50] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication
[15:50] <cjwatson> stgraber: can you tell us a bit about the expanding server interests you have (i.e. stuff that's outside the remit of Edubuntu)?
[15:50] <mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-June/002126.html
[15:50] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-June/002126.html
[15:51] <stgraber> sure, well, LTSP is based on a lot of server components (tftp, dhcp, nbd, ...) for its boot process
[15:51] <stgraber> I also work at a company doing mass deployments of server infrastructure and as such often encounters bugs or things that could be improved
[15:52] <stgraber> so I have a lot of interest here for bug fixing, improving integrations of some services and sponsoring fixes from co-workers and the community
[15:52] <mdz> stgraber: just to clarify scope, since we're in the midst of a transition here...if it were possible for you to work on LTSP and italc packages as a member of an Edubuntu team, rather than as an ubuntu-core-dev, would you have applied for that instead?
[15:52] <ogra> (beyond that adding new features to ltsp often adds new features to the underlying server packages)
[15:53] <stgraber> mdz: well, working on LTSP also means having to poke some X drivers, libX11, compiz and patches in gnome and KDE so having upload rights for that still makes sense
[15:53] <ogra> s/new features/new micro-features/
[15:53] <stgraber> I'm also trying to have LTSP be considered as outside of Edubuntu and more part of Ubuntu server instead
[15:53] <stgraber> as it's use in education is only one of many
[15:54] <cjwatson> stgraber: how have you found your work with the server team, in terms of balancing feature requests from LTSP against needs of more traditional server setups?
[15:54] <stgraber> so having the archive reorg and having an edubuntu-dev team able to upload the educative packages to main would make sense for edubuntu but for LTSP I'd still have applied to have more rights
[15:54] <cjwatson> I assume there are some cases where the relationship there isn't straightforward
[15:54] <mdz> stgraber: it doesn't look like you've uploaded those other packages in the past though; has that been a problem?
[15:55] <stgraber> so far the patches in gnome are done by ogra but I plan to also work on that myself
[15:55] <ogra> which i would greatly appreciate
[15:55] <stgraber> for X11, I recently uploaded (through sponsorship by Bryce) libxcb
[15:56] <stgraber> relation with the server team works quite well as we won't have too many patches there, the only one I can recall of is in dhcpd, other than that it's mainly getting more involved as being part of their meetings, having the LTSP sessions part of the server track (as it was for last UDS)
[15:56] <stgraber> and I now have the desktop in the cloud part of my todo list too
[15:56] <stgraber> that'd be sort-of related to my work on LTSP
[15:57] <ogra> many of the desktop patches are really old and could use someone to get them on the most up to date feature set of the desktop packages (i.e. there is no polkit integration for example)
[15:57] <stgraber> as it'd use a regular desktop, use the cloud work from the server team and the loadbalancing and configuration from ltsp-cluster
[15:57] <mdz> stgraber: is there anyone else here (other than ogra) who has been your sponsor?
[15:57] <ogra> LaserJock has
[15:57] <stgraber> ogra: right, and some integration with nautilus would be great too (that's on my agenda), currently we have some weird behavior there
[15:58] <cjwatson> I think we're going to have to move to a vote shortly
[15:58] <ogra> right, all my patches were only carried over and mildly adjusted from release to release ... new technology wasnt taken into account
[15:58] <cjwatson> any final questions for Stephane?
[15:58] <stgraber> I guess it's mainly ogra, LaserJock, bryce (not here) and mvo (a compiz change I did during UDS)
[15:59] <mdz> Keybuk: ?
[15:59] <cjwatson> [VOTE] Stéphane Graber for ubuntu-core-dev
[15:59] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Stéphane Graber for ubuntu-core-dev.
[15:59] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:59] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:59] <mdz> +1
[15:59] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:59] <cjwatson> stgraber is category:I-thought-he-was-in-core-dev-already for me, so ...
[15:59] <cjwatson> +1
[15:59] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:00] <mdz> cjwatson: no sense waiting for Keybuk, we seem to have lost him
[16:00] <cjwatson> I guess so :-/
[16:00] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[16:00] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
[16:01] <cjwatson> stgraber: congratulations
[16:01] <mdz> stgraber: thank you and welcome!
[16:01] <vorian> well done stgraber!
[16:01] <stgraber> yeah !!!
[16:01]  * ogra hugs stgraber
[16:01] <stgraber> thanks
[16:01] <ogra> finally
[16:01] <cjwatson> I would like to have time for James' application as well, but we're out of time :-(
[16:01] <dholbach> cjwatson: and he's on a plane
[16:01] <cjwatson> oh! well that would make a difference
[16:01] <cjwatson> I'll make sure it's top of the agenda next time
[16:01] <mdz> cjwatson: I don't have any questions for james-w
[16:01] <persia> I'd also like to remind the TB about Charlie Smotherman's per-package uploader application.
[16:02] <mdz> we've both worked with him personally enough, I think
[16:02] <cjwatson> nor do I, but I acknowledge bias since we're on the same team
[16:02] <mdz> cjwatson: does that mean you won't vote on his application?
[16:02] <cjwatson> I don't think I'm biased enough to recuse myself, no :)
[16:02] <mdz> if so, I think we'll need to round someone else up for quorum purposes
[16:03] <cjwatson> James has been consistently excellent throughout my work with him
[16:03] <cjwatson> well, in that case
[16:03] <cjwatson> [VOTE] James Westby for ubuntu-core-dev
[16:03] <MootBot> Please vote on:  James Westby for ubuntu-core-dev.
[16:03] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[16:03] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[16:03] <cjwatson> +1
[16:03] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[16:03] <mdz> he's category:I-thought-he-was-in-core-dev-already for me
[16:03] <mdz> so +1
[16:03] <mdz> +1
[16:03] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:03] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[16:03] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
[16:04] <vorian> wow, that's great james_w! congrats
[16:04] <cjwatson> ok, that was quick, I guess doing ALL THE SPONSORED UPLOADS IN THE WORLD makes a difference
[16:04] <mdz> hehe
[16:04]  * mathiaz congrats stgraber and james_w !
[16:04] <mdz> I've updated LP for both
[16:04] <cjwatson> thanks
[16:04] <cjwatson> no time for AOB, so thanks all
[16:04] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[16:04] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
[16:05] <cjwatson> persia: I'll make sure *that's* top of the agenda for next meeting
[16:05]  * mathiaz calls for server team meeting attendees
[16:05] <persia> cjwatson, Thanks.  Just wanted to make sure it didn't disappear :)
[16:05] <cjwatson> oh, we forgot to select a chair for next time
[16:05] <cjwatson> mdz: your turn next time?
[16:06] <mdz> cjwatson: ok
[16:06] <nijaba> o/
[16:06] <ivoks> o/
[16:06] <zul> derka derka
[16:07] <mathiaz> all right - let's get the Server Team meeting started
[16:07] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:07. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:07] <ttx> o/
[16:07] <sommer> yo
[16:07] <mathiaz> Today's exciting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:07] <mathiaz> Last week minutes:
[16:07] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090609
[16:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Merges
[16:08] <mathiaz> so I've updated the list of easy-merges for the ubuntu-server team
[16:08] <mathiaz> it's on the Roadmap
[16:08] <mathiaz> Have people found this list useful?
[16:08] <ivoks> iirc, amavisd-new is on that list
[16:09] <mathiaz> ivoks: yes
[16:09] <ivoks> merge diff for it was reported before uds
[16:09] <mathiaz> ivoks: bug number?
[16:09] <ivoks> a sec
[16:09] <ivoks> bug #379979
[16:10]  * ivoks hides :)
[16:10] <dholbach> there's a few server related packages on here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[16:10] <dholbach> might be worth checking that before doing a merge :-)
[16:11] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok - I've updated the wiki page
[16:11] <mathiaz> ivoks: to list the bug number
[16:11] <mathiaz> dholbach: hm - I have to check this list too
[16:12] <mathiaz> dholbach: is there a way to filter by packages?
[16:12] <dholbach> mathiaz: I'm afraid, not yet, no
[16:12] <mathiaz> dholbach: hm ok.
[16:12] <dholbach> but we need to get the list down to 0 anyway, which would help with scanning it
[16:13] <mathiaz> dholbach: right - the list isn't too long so I don't think filtering is necessary for now
[16:13] <dholbach> rock on!
[16:13] <dholbach> mathiaz: please poke all server people about it :-)
[16:13] <mathiaz> dholbach: but when any lists gets too long finding filters to narrow it down helps a lot
[16:13]  * dholbach shuts up now
[16:13] <ivoks> i'll look at universe packages
[16:14] <mathiaz> ivoks: awesome. Thansk.
[16:15] <mathiaz> The list of merges has slightly shrunk from last week
[16:15] <mathiaz> However there is still a long list of packages waiting to be merged in karmic.
[16:15] <mathiaz> Merge-O-Matic is there to help out: https://merges.ubuntu.com
[16:16] <mathiaz> Any questions related to merges?
[16:16] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Heartbeat 2.99 in Karmic
[16:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Heartbeat 2.99 in Karmic
[16:17] <mathiaz> RoAkSoAx isn't around
[16:17] <ivoks> i'm reading the log...
[16:17] <mathiaz> ivoks: any insight on the ACTIONS from last week?
[16:17] <ivoks> yeah... well, heartbeat 2.99 just shares the name with previous versions of heartbeat
[16:17] <mathiaz> I haven't seen a call for testing for heartbeat related packages in his PPA
[16:18] <ivoks> they are almost completly different things
[16:18] <ivoks> heartbeat 2.99 doesn't work as a standalone app
[16:18] <ivoks> it's being utilized by pacemaker
[16:18] <ivoks> and ubuntu-ha decided that pacemaker-openais is the way to go
[16:18] <mathiaz> ivoks: right.
[16:18] <ivoks> still, -heartbeat version of pacemaker will be provided in universe
[16:18] <ivoks> without any support
[16:18] <mathiaz> ivoks: is this the same solution as the one adopted by debian?
[16:19] <ivoks> since heartbeat is dead project
[16:19] <ivoks> mathiaz: yes, i contact debian devs daily
[16:19] <ivoks> and one of them is member of ubuntu-ha
[16:19] <mathiaz> ivoks: great - how is their testing in experimental going?
[16:19] <ivoks> some upstream people are also members of ubuntu-ha
[16:20] <ivoks> they are doing new packages of openais
[16:20] <ivoks> and corosync and, we are helping with packaging
[16:21] <ivoks> we've been supplied with debian/ dirs from upstream
[16:21] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok - so the plan is to replace heartbeat with openais+corosync+pacemaker?
[16:21] <ivoks> mathiaz: no, it's very complicated :)
[16:21] <ivoks> mathiaz: at the moment corosync and openais aren't API stable
[16:22] <zul> is ubuntu-ha going to be supporting rhcs as well?
[16:22] <ivoks> so, redhat cluster suite 3.0rcX depends on corosync and openais with the same timestamp
[16:22] <mathiaz> ivoks: is there a wiki page to outline the problem and the proposed solution?
[16:22] <ivoks> zul: plan is to degrade rhcs to universe
[16:22] <zul> ivoks: excelent
[16:23] <ivoks> mathiaz: i've sent an email to ubuntu-ha mailing list, but i could do a wiki page with some clearification
[16:23] <ivoks> but, the point is...
[16:23] <ivoks> corosync and openais should get 1.0 release in next 2 weeks
[16:23] <nijaba> ivoks: and upgrade pacemaker and friend to main?
[16:23] <ivoks> then pacemaker will be ported to those versions
[16:23] <ivoks> nijaba: yes
[16:23] <nijaba> ivoks: way cool, thanks
[16:24] <ivoks> linux cluster stack became joint effort of all distros and vendors
[16:24] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok - does this mean everything should be ready by FeatureFreeze?
[16:24] <ivoks> mathiaz: it depends on upstream
[16:24] <mathiaz> ivoks: which is end of august
[16:25] <ivoks> i would suggest keeping rhcs in main and in good shape untils pacemaker gets compiled with corosync/openais 1.0
[16:25] <ivoks> then do the switch
[16:25] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok - so if you could write up a short wiki page with the different issues
[16:25] <ivoks> basicaly, atm ubuntu-ha needs to suport both platforms
[16:25] <mathiaz> ivoks: so that we know we are and where we're heading at
[16:25] <ivoks> sure
[16:26] <mathiaz> ivoks: it doesn't need to be a full blown spec
[16:26] <ivoks> i know, but spec should clearify this
[16:26] <ivoks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClusterStack
[16:26] <mathiaz> ivoks: just a list of packages that should be moved to main, an small overview of the new architecture, and what are the blocker for now
[16:27] <mathiaz> ivoks: great that's a good start
[16:28] <mathiaz> anything else related to the Cluster stack and HA?
[16:28] <ivoks> testing packages are on ubuntu-ha ppa :)
[16:29] <zul> ivoks: does heartbeat need to be updated in the kernel again?
[16:29] <ivoks> zul: kernel? no
[16:29] <ivoks> forget heartbeat
[16:29] <ivoks> it's dead
[16:29] <zul> ivoks: okies
[16:29] <mathiaz> ok - let's move on then
[16:30] <mathiaz> ivoks: thanks for taking care of the cluster stack in Ubuntu and cooperating with the rest of the distros
[16:30] <ttx> ivoks: if you forget your heartbeat, you may become dead as well.
[16:30] <mathiaz> That's all I had from last week meetings
[16:31] <mathiaz> anything else to add related to last week discussions?
[16:31] <mathiaz> nope - let's move on then
[16:32] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] kernel modules and userspace tools synchronisation
[16:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  kernel modules and userspace tools synchronisation
[16:32] <ivoks> right...
[16:32] <mathiaz> ivoks: are you talking about drbd and iscsi?
[16:32] <ivoks> kvm, everything...
[16:32] <ivoks> providing new version of drbd, for example, is hard
[16:32] <ivoks> cause we have to upload new kernel
[16:33] <ivoks> i was thinking about dkms
[16:33] <ivoks> would it be a problem to utilize dkms as a default way for those kind of things?
[16:33] <mathiaz> kirkland: what's your take on that?
[16:33] <ivoks> in case of drbd, it would help a lot since i would have to sync drbd source in kernel and in userspace tools
[16:33] <zul> ivoks: dkms probably wouldnt be a problem for drbd
[16:34] <mathiaz> kirkland: I know you've used dkms for kvm to provide a backport to hardy
[16:34] <mathiaz> ivoks: how hard is it now to get a new version of drbd in the kernel?
[16:34] <ivoks> we have to upload new kernel
[16:34] <ivoks> and new userspace at the same time
[16:35] <ivoks> probably the same as kvm
[16:35] <mathiaz> ivoks: also IIRC drbd will be included into the mainline kernel soon
[16:35] <ivoks> well, 'soon' :)
[16:35] <ivoks> i don't expect it to be there before 10.04
[16:35] <mathiaz> ivoks: is the issue that the transition needs to be tracked
[16:36] <ivoks> transition?
[16:36] <mathiaz> ivoks: or that sometimes the kernel team updates the drbd module and that userspace is broken
[16:36] <ivoks> that happens too, but only during development
[16:36] <mathiaz> ivoks: well - by transition I mean that both kernel and userspace have to be in sync
[16:36] <ivoks> it would like to provide ppa for drbd
[16:36] <ivoks> where users would get newer versions of drbd
[16:36] <ivoks> wich otherwise wouldn't get into -updates
[16:37] <mathiaz> ivoks: that's a good plan - but we also need to take care of the stable release
[16:37] <mathiaz> ivoks: the primary goal is to get a version of drbd that works in stable releases
[16:37] <ivoks> of course
[16:37] <ivoks> but SRU won't be accepted
[16:37] <mathiaz> ivoks: PPA can be a good options for backports ( kirkland does something similar with kvm)
[16:37] <ivoks> cause new drbds bring only new functionality
[16:38] <mathiaz> ivoks: right - so a PPA seems a good option
[16:38] <ivoks> but, let's look fruther than drbd
[16:38] <ivoks> that's just an example
[16:38] <mathiaz> ivoks: right - kvm doesn't really fall in the same category IIRC
[16:39] <mathiaz> ivoks: as there isn't such a strong dependency between kernel and userspace
[16:39] <mathiaz> ivoks: the other module that I know of is open-iscsi
[16:39] <mathiaz> ivoks: apparmor is also similar
[16:40] <ivoks> well, is apparmor a module or built-in?
[16:40] <mathiaz> ivoks: it's build-in now
[16:40] <ivoks> built-in
[16:40] <mathiaz> ivoks: but there is version dependency on the parser
[16:40] <mathiaz> ivoks: IIRC you can use an old parser to load profile into a new kernel
[16:41] <mathiaz> ivoks: this is where things tend to break in open-iscsi and drbd too
[16:41] <ivoks> well, my concern is drbd
[16:41] <mathiaz> ivoks: right
[16:41] <ivoks> i think we could get more out of it
[16:41] <mathiaz> ivoks: so what's the current process to update drbd in the development release?
[16:42] <mathiaz> ivoks: send a git pull to the kernel team
[16:42] <mathiaz> ivoks: 1. send a git pull to the kernel team
[16:42] <mathiaz> ivoks: 2. wait for the new kernel to be uploaded
[16:42] <ivoks> as it turns out, they pull it automaticaly
[16:42] <ivoks> so, i never send them a patch
[16:42] <ivoks> they just do it
[16:42] <mathiaz> ivoks: 3. then upload the matching userspace version
[16:42] <ivoks> and then we keep up with userspace
[16:42] <ivoks> right
[16:43] <mathiaz> ivoks: how do you keep up with userspace? manually?
[16:43] <ivoks> yes
[16:43] <mathiaz> ivoks: just by change you happen to notice there is a new drbd module?
[16:43] <mathiaz> ivoks: just by chance you happen to notice there is a new drbd module?
[16:43] <ivoks> i look from time to time what's in kernel
[16:43] <ivoks> and atm there's the latest version
[16:43] <mathiaz> ivoks: that drbd is broken *again* and you upload a new userspace version
[16:43] <ivoks> i also know when drbd releases new version
[16:44] <ivoks> mathiaz: that never happened
[16:44] <ivoks> drbd has slow release cycle
[16:44] <ivoks> mostly kernel team does the inital pull
[16:44] <ivoks> and then i send patches for newer version, if any
[16:45] <ivoks> wait for new kernel, and then rebuild userspace
[16:45] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok - so is there any improvement that could be made for handling drbd in the development release?
[16:45] <ivoks> dkms :)
[16:45] <mathiaz> ivoks: or is wait for new kernel, rebuild userspace a good enough process?
[16:45] <ivoks> dkms would make me happier man; i would have to look only on one file in kernel git
[16:45] <mathiaz> ivoks: with dkms you'd have control over the kernel module *and* the userspace at the same time
[16:46] <ivoks> yes
[16:46] <mathiaz> ivoks: right - I understand the advantage of dkms for backports
[16:46] <mathiaz> ivoks: I'm trying to figure out whether it would be usefull to handle stable releases as well
[16:46] <ivoks> well, desktop already does it
[16:47] <ivoks> for ati/nvidia stuff, iirc
[16:47] <mathiaz> ivoks: right - so it seems that it could be a good option
[16:47] <mathiaz> ivoks: the next step would be to talk to the kernel team
[16:47] <ivoks> kvm-source in jaunty depends on dkms
[16:47] <ivoks> of course
[16:47] <mathiaz> ivoks: and ask them what they think about it
[16:47] <ivoks> i planed to send an email to -server and -kernel
[16:47] <ivoks> but it was better to discuss it here first
[16:48] <mathiaz> ivoks: you may also talk to kirkland to see how he built the dkms version of kvm for hardy
[16:48] <mathiaz> ivoks: great.
[16:48] <kirkland> mathiaz: sorry, stepped away, back now
[16:48] <mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to send an email to -server and -kernel about turning drbd into a dkms based module
[16:48] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to send an email to -server and -kernel about turning drbd into a dkms based module
[16:49] <mathiaz> kirkland: that's ok - I think that ivoks would like to talk to you later
[16:49] <kirkland> mathiaz: ivoks: cool
[16:49] <mathiaz> kirkland: about dkms and kvm
[16:50] <mathiaz> let's move on if there is nothing else to this topic (drbd)
[16:50] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
[16:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
[16:50] <mathiaz> Anything else to add?
[16:52] <ivoks> anyone interested in hadoop packaging? :)
[16:52] <ttx> ivoks: :)
[16:53] <ttx> ivoks: I can tell soren is interested in having it packaged, but that doesn't really help you.
[16:53] <ivoks> hehehe
[16:53] <ivoks> i got couple of emails that people are interested... why does everybody looks at me first? :)
[16:53] <ivoks> bed inglish
[16:54] <sommer> cause you only have one shoe on? :)
[16:54] <mathiaz> ivoks: are there some packages already? is there an ITP for it?
[16:54] <ivoks> http://cloudera.com/hadoop-deb
[16:54] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://cloudera.com/hadoop-deb
[16:55] <mathiaz> ivoks: so these packages could be a starting point
[16:55] <ivoks> i haven't looked at them
[16:55] <ivoks> so i would say 'big maybe'
[16:55] <mathiaz> ivoks: has someone tried to build them on karmic and pushed them to a PPA
[16:55] <mathiaz> ivoks: ?
[16:56] <ivoks> mathiaz: all hadoop packages i've seen were binary files, no source
[16:56] <ivoks> maybe these aren't...
[16:56] <mathiaz> ivoks: oh well - that doesn't help at all then
[16:56] <ttx> mathiaz: and they might be FHS-adverse as well
[16:56] <ivoks> but i won't judge anyone, until i look at them
[16:57] <ivoks> ttx: well, looking at the link
[16:57] <ttx> ivoks: I'll have a look at them, maybe tomorrow
[16:57] <ivoks> Hadoop wrapper script                  /usr/bin/hadoop
[16:57] <ivoks>  Hadoop Jar and Library Files           /usr/lib/hadoop
[16:57] <ivoks> ttx: great
[16:57] <ivoks> it's a cloud thing, you guys should be interested in that :D
[16:57] <ttx> :P
[16:58] <ttx> It's prio 1 on my CrackOfTheDay list
[16:58] <mathiaz> [ACTION] ttx to look at cloudera hadoop debian packages
[16:58] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to look at cloudera hadoop debian packages
[16:58] <ttx> argh :)
[16:58] <ivoks> ttx: hahaha nailed
[16:58] <mathiaz> let's move on and wrap up
[16:58] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:58] <mathiaz> next week, same place, same time?
[16:59] <ivoks> sure
[16:59] <ttx> wfm
[17:00] <sommer> :)
[17:00] <mathiaz> awesome then
[17:00] <mathiaz> thanks for attending and see you all
[17:00] <mathiaz> same time, same place, next week
[17:00] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
[17:00] <ttx> thanks mathiaz !
[17:00] <sommer> later on all
[17:00] <ivoks> MootBot is in the ocean...
[17:56]  * amitk waves
[17:57]  * bjf waves back
[17:59]  * manjo waves
[18:00]  * pgraner waves
[18:00]  * smb phases in
[18:00]  * apw zones in
[18:00]  * cking is here
[18:00]  * jjohansen waves
[18:00]  * lieb_ here
[18:00] <jjohansen> so I guess that already take care of roll call
[18:01]  * awe waves
[18:01]  * bjf thinks were ready
[18:01] <jjohansen> #startmeeting
[18:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is jjohansen.
[18:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:01] <jjohansen> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:01] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] Open Items: "smb to request feedback on new SRU policy update from mailing list"
[18:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "smb to request feedback on new SRU policy update from mailing list"
[18:01] <smb> done
[18:02] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty
[18:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty
[18:02] <smb> Hardy:    2.6.24-24.54 (11 days in proposed but not enough (0) verifications)
[18:02] <smb> Intrepid: 2.6.27-14.34 (11 days in proposed but not enough (2) verifications))
[18:02] <smb> Jaunty:   2.6.28-13.44 (14 / 6 verifications)
[18:02] <smb>           LRM should get a bit of wl(broadcom) driver testing.
[18:02] <smb> CVE triaging: in progress (87%). ETA hopefully this week
[18:02] <smb> So Jaunty gets promoted I hpe
[18:02] <smb> hope
[18:03] <smb> thats all
[18:03] <apw> jjohansen, that covers all of the bugfix kernels
[18:03] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] Karmic Status
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Status
[18:04] <rtg> on track. I'm busily wrecking the i386 flavours
[18:04] <rtg> I'll need to confer with the platform team about how to upgrade from Jaunty
[18:04] <jjohansen> [ACTION] rtg onfer with the platform team about how to upgrade from Jaunty
[18:04] <MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg onfer with the platform team about how to upgrade from Jaunty
[18:04] <rtg> I also need to confer with the installer team about choosing the right i386 kernel
[18:05] <pgraner> I created a Release Status Page to track our progress.... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:05] <jjohansen> [ACTION] rtg confer with the installer team about choosing the right i386 kernel
[18:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg confer with the installer team about choosing the right i386 kernel
[18:05] <rtg> we should be getting close to an 2.6.31-rc1 as well
[18:05] <smb> That probably goes into the same direction as some upgrade path bug/question we got from old releases
[18:05] <apw> most of the  configuration changes we recommended have now been applied
[18:06] <rtg> jjohansen: I think thats about it
[18:06] <pgraner> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:06] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] LPIA Tree
[18:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA Tree
[18:06] <apw> hrm no sconklin1
[18:07] <sconklin1> lpia hardy has been rebased to the latest hardy
[18:07] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions
[18:07] <sconklin1> jaunty will branch today or tomorrow to begin taking changes for netbook lpia stuff
[18:07] <ogasawara> I added 1 regression-potential and 1 regression-release bug to the list this week but smb and apw are already assigned.
[18:07] <apw> thanks for the list as always
[18:07] <ogasawara> The bug day stats from last week as are follows:
[18:07] <ogasawara> Bug Day Stats - Kernel Devs
[18:07] <ogasawara> Fix Released 12 (↑12)
[18:07] <ogasawara> Fix Committed 1 (↑1)
[18:07] <ogasawara> Won't Fix  67 (↑67)
[18:07] <ogasawara> Invalid 13 (↑13)
[18:07] <ogasawara> Reassigned 0 (↑0)
[18:07] <ogasawara> In Progress 2 (↑2)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Incomplete 64 (↓73)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Triaged 15 (↓4)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Confirmed 14 (↓9)
[18:08] <ogasawara> New 12 (↓9)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Bug Day Stats - Community
[18:08] <rtg> sconklin1: is the OEM team suing the official kernel for all projects?
[18:08] <ogasawara> Fix Released 4 (↑4)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Fix Committed 0 (↑0)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Won't Fix 0 (↑0)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Invalid 38 (↑38)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Reassigned 0 (↑0)
[18:08] <ogasawara> In Progress 0 (↑0)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Incomplete 8 (↓42)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Triaged 0 (↑0)
[18:08] <ogasawara> Confirmed 0 (↑0)
[18:08] <ogasawara> New 0 (↑0)
[18:08] <apw> who gets the kudos for the community contributions?
[18:08] <sconklin1> rtg: that's a good question. They have committed to using it for all new starts, but as we found last week there are projects still using old trees that we didn't know about
[18:09] <ogasawara> apw: andres again, as well as our kernel janitor :)
[18:09]  * apw shakes the janitors hand
[18:09] <apw> how is the janitors sweep going?
[18:09] <cking> well done to andres
[18:09] <apw> ^5 andres
[18:09] <ogasawara> apw: looking good for the incomplete script I'd written.  still tweaking the script for new bugs
[18:10] <apw> any feel for how its affecting our 'bottom line' of open bugs
[18:10] <bjf> jjohansen, we missed ARM status
[18:10] <jjohansen> bjf: so we did thanks
[18:10] <maco> the community stats look like the incompletes were converted to invalid massively
[18:11] <ogasawara> apw: still a little early to tell I think, but hopefully going down
[18:11] <ogasawara> maco: indeed, the bugs on the community list were primarily old and without feedback for info
[18:12] <maco> ok. was wondering if they were expiration invalids or it works in 2.6.30 but nobody knows why
[18:12] <rtg> bjf: you gonna blurt some ARM status?
[18:12] <bjf> I'm working on forward-porting the babbage 1 changes to karmic, I hope to have them done this week.
[18:12] <bjf> My plan is to start on babbage 2 patches next week and and them mostly done by the end of next week.
[18:12] <rtg> bjf: so we have how many babbage 2 boards in our possesion?
[18:13] <bjf> rtg there are 4 in the company
[18:13] <bjf> rtg, 1 in the kernel team
[18:13] <rtg> bjf: any in the community?
[18:13] <bjf> rtg, no
[18:13] <pgraner> bjf: daivdm is sending you a replacement pegatron for the one you lost yesterday
[18:13] <bjf> pgraner, thanks (i think :-)
[18:13] <cking> what's a pegatron?
[18:14] <bjf> cking, OEM babbage 2
[18:14] <pgraner> cking: its like a block-a-tron, just with pegs
[18:14] <cking> ah
[18:14] <amitk> we do have several pegatrons (3rd party babbage derivatives) too
[18:14]  * rtg notes the babbage is a poor reference platform if there are none in the wild.
[18:14] <pgraner> rtg: agreed, not much we can do about it
[18:15] <rtg> pgraner: well, I think there are things we can do about it, beginnign with changing our reference ARM platform.
[18:15] <pgraner> rtg: no can do
[18:15] <maco> why?
[18:15] <maco> er, why not, i mean?
[18:15] <pgraner> rtg: this is all contract if you want to sponsor a community port of another chip have at it
[18:16] <rtg> hmm
[18:17] <rtg> jjohansen: moving on...
[18:17] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] UDS Deliverables
[18:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Deliverables
[18:17] <apw> the KMS stuff is proceeding, we have kerenls for ATI and updated Intel out for testing with x-swat
[18:17] <apw> the kernel backports are moving but slower
[18:18] <rtg> UDS deliverables status is in the aforementioned link: ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:18] <apw> ack
[18:18] <rtg> the only contentious issue that I see is regarding staging drivers
[18:18] <jjohansen> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:19] <jjohansen> any drivers in particular?
[18:19] <rtg> jjohansen: not really.
[18:20] <jjohansen> anything else then?
[18:20] <rtg> I just don't see anyone taking ownership yet
[18:20] <pgraner> rtg: this is where the hwdb would come in handy
[18:20] <rtg> pgraner: indeed
[18:20] <pgraner> rtg: we could find hardware thats in staging that has a larger presence
[18:20] <pgraner> ogasawara: anything we can do quickly ?
[18:21] <ogasawara> pgraner: I might be able to do that now with the hwdb api
[18:21] <pgraner> ogasawara: or are we at the mercy of LP APIs
[18:21] <ogasawara> pgraner: I can at least get stats based off of the driver
[18:21] <ogasawara> pgraner: in terms of overall user base
[18:21] <rtg> ogasawara: maybe your queries will run in 24 hours or so :)
[18:21] <pgraner> ogasawara: cool thanks
[18:21] <ogasawara> rtg: heh, only if you're lucky :)
[18:22] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] Open discussion or questions
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion or questions
[18:22] <pgraner> [ACTION] ogasawara to look at /staging drivers in hwdb
[18:22] <jjohansen> thanks
[18:22] <pgraner> jjohansen: you'll have to do it again since your the meeting chair
[18:22] <jjohansen> [ACTION] ogasawara to look at /staging drivers in hwdb
[18:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogasawara to look at /staging drivers in hwdb
[18:23] <rtg> MootBot is a bigot
[18:23] <pgraner> Who is going to do kernel boot msg clean up?
[18:23] <pgraner> We still have ugly kernel msgs before usplash
[18:23] <rtg> is that a work item somewhere?
[18:24] <pgraner> Foundations is cleaning up Grub & Grub2
[18:24] <pgraner> rtg: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:24] <pgraner> rtg: under Other Tasks
[18:24] <jjohansen> [LINK]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:24] <MootBot> LINK received:   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:24] <rtg> pgraner: that ain't much help. which spec?
[18:25] <pgraner> rtg: no need for a spec, its silencing the 2 lines of boot text
[18:25] <rtg> pgraner: nm, didn't scrioll down
[18:25] <pgraner> rtg: if anything I can add it to the boot beautification spec for the DX team
[18:25] <rtg> pgraner: ok, andy or myslef will take care of it
[18:26] <pgraner> rtg: ack thanks
[18:26] <jjohansen> [ACTION] pgraner and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
[18:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
[18:26] <pgraner> s/pgraner/rtg/g
[18:26] <rtg> apw: has there been a single grub2 failure?
[18:27] <apw> there have been a couple, they appear to be related to
[18:27] <apw> having multiple disks and the boot loader not getting installed
[18:27] <rtg> apw: LVM related?
[18:27] <cking> nothing BIOSy
[18:27] <apw> the ones i saw were simple sda and sdb installs
[18:27] <apw> there are bugs filed if i recall
[18:27] <cking> LVM seems to work. I've tried it and so have some others
[18:27] <rtg> cool
[18:28] <apw> cking, right nothing boot failed cause of BIOS interactions
[18:28] <rtg> I just turned on grub-pc as the recommended boot loader
[18:28] <apw> they were all something in a shell script has failed stylee imo
[18:28] <cking> (as I can recall)
[18:29] <jjohansen> anything else?
[18:29] <jjohansen> [ACTION] rtg and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
[18:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg and apw kernel boot msg cleanup
[18:29] <jjohansen> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair Selection
[18:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Next Meeting Chair Selection
[18:30] <smb> I could do
[18:30] <apw> works for me
[18:30] <apw> :)
[18:30] <bjf> i like it when a plan comes together :-)
[18:30] <jjohansen> [ACTION] smb chair 23-06-09 meeting
[18:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  smb chair 23-06-09 meeting
[18:30] <smb> jjohansen, could you send me the mootbot output?
[18:30] <apw> sounds like a wrap
[18:31] <jjohansen> will
[18:31] <jjohansen> thanks everyone
[18:31] <jjohansen> #endmeeting
[18:31] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:31.
[18:31] <lieb> bye
[18:31] <amitk> thanks
[19:52]  * harcesz bangs o irish war drums
[19:55] <juliux> hi
[19:56] <keffie_jayx> 5 minutes before a loco-council meeting
[20:00] <keffie_jayx> Ok
[20:01] <Kami> hello
[20:01] <Mean-Machine> eveninkz
[20:01] <ebel> hi
[20:01] <Shane_Fagan> Evening all
[20:01] <czajkowski> Aloha
[20:01] <tdr1121> hello
[20:01] <talideon> Hello.
[20:01] <harcesz> hi
[20:01] <dantalizing> morning
[20:01] <huayra> god dag
[20:02] <daxroc> Lo
[20:02] <keffie_jayx> Hello ubuntu LoCo teams, today we have great quorum for tonight's meeting, popey  will be joining us any minute now
[20:02] <greyback> greets
[20:02] <juliux> hi
[20:02] <JanC> 'lo all
[20:02] <boredandblogging> hola
[20:02] <keffie_jayx> for those of you who are new to the LoCo Council, it is constituded by juliux , JanC , boredandblogging, popey  and myself ebel
[20:03] <keffie_jayx> tab mistake
[20:03] <czajkowski> ebel?
[20:03] <ebel> news to me
[20:03] <keffie_jayx> keffie-jayx
[20:03] <keffie_jayx> ebel, ;)
[20:03] <greyback> ebel: congrats :)
[20:03] <ebel> hehehehe
[20:03] <keffie_jayx> cool
[20:03] <Mean-Machine> ebel, you rock1
[20:03] <keffie_jayx> today we will have two things to discuss and our round of approvals
[20:04] <Kami> hello, I'm here for as Slovenian loco team representer :)
[20:04] <Mean-Machine> C'mon Ireland!  \o/
[20:04] <Shane_Fagan> pom poms out hehe *\o/*
[20:04] <Spike1506> :o
[20:04] <ebel> wow ireland!
[20:04]  * daxroc waves the green white n gold
[20:04] <keffie_jayx> we will begin with approvals
[20:05] <keffie_jayx> so teams be ready
[20:05] <keffie_jayx> ;)
[20:05] <Kami> k :)
[20:05] <czajkowski> okie dokie
[20:05]  * ebel was born ready
[20:05] <keffie_jayx> We begin wit Ubuntu-ie
[20:05] <keffie_jayx> Anyone here for Ubuntu Ireland
[20:05] <keffie_jayx> ?
[20:05] <czajkowski> Me
[20:05] <Shane_Fagan> yep
[20:05] <ebel> me
[20:05] <greyback> ding
[20:05] <harcesz> yep
[20:05] <tdr1121> me
[20:05] <Mean-Machine> hello
[20:05] <keffie_jayx> wow
[20:05] <talideon> Yep.
[20:05] <Mean-Machine> o/
[20:05] <daxroc> <-
[20:05] <harcesz> FTW!
[20:06] <juliux> wow
[20:06] <ebel> go team!
[20:06] <boredandblogging> :-)
[20:06] <Mean-Machine> C'mon Ireland!  \o/
[20:06] <keffie_jayx> great :D
[20:06] <huayra> Go Ireland :)
[20:06] <keffie_jayx> pelase past your proposal and give a small intrudction of your team efforts
[20:06] <Kami> i guess team slovenia needs some backup, judging by ubuntu ireland
[20:06] <czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam/IrishTeamApprovalApplication  I'll let Mean-Machine take over
[20:07] <Mean-Machine> we're a still growing loco
[20:07] <Mean-Machine> but we're strong
[20:07] <stronger> strong strong!
[20:07]  * harcesz estas totally loco
[20:08] <Mean-Machine> we had plenty of events organized and are still planning next ones
[20:08] <Mean-Machine> release parties are getting better and better
[20:08] <czajkowski> we're still learning and improving on events and stuff we do
[20:08] <Mean-Machine> team communication and interaction is getting better every day
[20:09] <Mean-Machine> we were represented by czajkowski at the last UDS in Barcelona
[20:09] <czajkowski> yes it was a lot of fun! and I was then able to come back and tell the folks here about the event
[20:09] <keffie_jayx> fantastic
[20:09] <boredandblogging> what is the Drop in Centre exactly?
[20:09] <czajkowski> and even dring UDS get feedback from the mailing list re bug ams and give that to daniel during UDS, showing the support of the mailing list
[20:09] <Mean-Machine> more ideas, more enthusiasm
[20:09] <keffie_jayx> great team effort
[20:10] <czajkowski> boredandblogging: it was where a few of us couldm meet up and if anyone had issues
[20:10] <ebel> boredandblogging: it was basically a physical space
[20:10] <Mean-Machine> boredandblogging, unfortunately it does not exist anymore
[20:10] <czajkowski> they could come in and ask for help, rather then perhaps try and gain help over irc , it's sometimes easier to explain face to face
[20:10] <czajkowski> it was aslo a way to meet people
[20:10] <ebel> ie try to encourage some nonvirtual interaction
[20:10] <boredandblogging> this space was advertised as a resource?
[20:10] <Mean-Machine> it was something we wanted to try out
[20:10] <czajkowski> boredandblogging: yup
[20:10] <ebel> boredandblogging: yeah
[20:10] <keffie_jayx> How long has it been since the team started and what have been the mayour challenges?
[20:11] <boredandblogging> any thoughts on why it didn't work out?
[20:11] <czajkowski> boredandblogging: but due to rearranging of space in the venue,  and interest dwindling, we deiced to put our resources else where
[20:11] <ebel> also due to reorganisation in the organisation providing the space, they weren't able to offer it to us anymore
[20:11] <czajkowski> boredandblogging: saturdays are ppls weekends, and familys and commitments also need to be taken into account
[20:12] <popey> o/
[20:12] <Mean-Machine> keffie_jayx, team started a good while ago but is properly functioning for maybe 2 years now
[20:12] <boredandblogging> was this once a month? weekly?
[20:12] <JanC> when did the Irish team start actually?
[20:12] <popey> sorry for being late, train was delayed, just walked in the door
[20:12] <czajkowski> boredandblogging: weekly on a saturday
[20:13] <Mean-Machine> popey, thanks for joining
[20:13] <JanC> (ignore my question ;) )
[20:13] <ebel> irish team has been around longer than i've been involved
[20:13] <czajkowski> JanC: sorry as Mean-Machine said it's fucntioning a good while but properly for last 2 years
[20:13] <Shane_Fagan> Me too
[20:14] <boredandblogging> the face 2 face meetings, there are pics only from 2 months, but you meet every month, right?
[20:14] <keffie_jayx> czajkowski, has there been transitioning in LoCo team contacts?
[20:14] <Mean-Machine> boredandblogging, correct. that's together with Irish linux User Group
[20:14] <czajkowski> keffie_jayx: what do you mean?
[20:14] <czajkowski> boredandblogging: I dont always have my camera like you do with me
[20:14] <keffie_jayx> czajkowski,  change in team contact
[20:15] <ebel> boredandblogging: yeah. those meetups are regular so it doesn't feel special enought to whip out the camera all the time
[20:15] <ebel> keffie_jayx: Mean-Machine is the point of contact
[20:15] <Mean-Machine> keffie_jayx, yes there has been. and there were a few issues with website admin logins etc
[20:15] <czajkowski> keffie_jayx: well Mean-Machine has done a fantastic job of being our loco apointee and has brought the Irish LoCo to where we are
[20:15] <boredandblogging> makes sense :-)
[20:15] <ebel> and has been for about 2 years ish
[20:15] <czajkowski> keffie_jayx: we have roles within the loco for meetings, events, and write ups to share the experince
[20:15] <keffie_jayx> great
[20:15] <Mean-Machine> I wouldn't achieve anything without these guys here though!
[20:16] <harcesz> yeah Mean-Machine FTW!
[20:16] <czajkowski> boredandblogging: every once in a while I manage to do so!
[20:16] <Mean-Machine> now, let me hear it for IRELAND...
[20:16] <czajkowski> Yay!
[20:16] <Shane_Fagan> yay!
[20:16] <JanC> how did the bugjam event go ?  you have people to mentor that?
[20:16] <Mean-Machine> o/
[20:16] <ebel> \o/
[20:16] <harcesz> \o/
[20:16] <czajkowski> JanC: it went well ebel here gave a talk on the day
[20:16] <greyback> wooo
[20:16] <ebel> JanC: bug jam was great imo
[20:16] <talideon> \o/
[20:16] <Mean-Machine> JanC, ebel is our bug triaging guy
[20:16] <boredandblogging> just an fyi, the barcamp videos don't seem to work
[20:16] <czajkowski> and showed folks not how to log bugs but also about how best to triage them
[20:17] <slashtom> ebel did a grand job
[20:17] <czajkowski> in 2 weeks time were having a summer jam,  bugs and translations
[20:17] <ebel> JanC: i'm a software developer by trade, so i was able to explain what bugs and bug trackers are
[20:17] <czajkowski> as Shane_Fagan here has taken over nand wants to get more drive in that area  in the Irish language
[20:17] <ebel> also i've experience teaching it, so it was natural
[20:17] <slashtom> czajkowski: is that still o n?
[20:17] <boredandblogging> +1 from me
[20:17] <czajkowski> slashtom: yup 27th june BBQ my gaff
[20:17] <harcesz> http://www.archive.org/details/OSSBarCampDublin
[20:17] <keffie_jayx> well.. It seems to me ubuntu-ie have a great group of people that will provide continuity to Mean-Machine's superb job
[20:18] <keffie_jayx> let us vote then
[20:18] <juliux> huge +1 from me
[20:18] <keffie_jayx> JanC, popey
[20:18] <Mean-Machine> boredandblogging, thank for letting us know about the videos
[20:18] <Mean-Machine> harcesz, could you look into this please? ;-]
[20:18] <popey> +1 also :)
[20:19] <JanC> ebel: not all software developers know how to triage bugs in Ubuntu or open source projects, but great work for doing the teaching!
[20:19] <keffie_jayx> JanC, ?
[20:19] <JanC> +1 from me
[20:19] <keffie_jayx> and +1 from me too
[20:19] <keffie_jayx> unanimous
[20:19] <czajkowski> Go raibh maith agat  (thank you as gaeilge)
[20:19] <Shane_Fagan> yay  o/
[20:19] <ebel> yay
[20:19] <keffie_jayx> contratulations Ubuntu-ie
[20:19] <tdr1121> good stuff
[20:19] <czajkowski> w00t
[20:20] <Mean-Machine> hurray!
[20:20] <keffie_jayx> you are approved
[20:20] <ebel> huzzah
[20:20] <Kami> congrats
[20:20] <daxroc> :D
[20:20] <ebel> :D
[20:20] <Mean-Machine> well done Ireland!
[20:20] <harcesz> :D
[20:20] <popey> congrats guys (and more importantly gals)
[20:20] <czajkowski> grin :)
[20:20] <Shane_Fagan> Go raibh maith agat
[20:20] <kklimonda> congrats..
[20:20] <harcesz> gratulacje :)
[20:20] <Mean-Machine> brilliant job Irish team
[20:21] <keffie_jayx> alright
[20:21] <keffie_jayx> on to the next applicant team
[20:21] <Mean-Machine> party in #ubuntu-ie
[20:21] <juliux> hehe
[20:21]  * harcesz runs for the buze
[20:21] <popey> :)
[20:21]  * popey suspects they know how to party
[20:21] <keffie_jayx> anyone here from the Slovenian Team?
[20:22] <czajkowski> popey: we have some experience in it
[20:22] <Kami> keffie_jayx: yep
[20:22] <keffie_jayx> great
[20:22] <keffie_jayx> Would you mind shraing you approval wiki page and a small intro with us?
[20:22] <Kami> k, our approval page is located here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SlovenianTeam/ApprovalApplication
[20:22] <Mean-Machine> Good Luck Slovenia!
[20:22] <Kami> thanks
[20:23] <Kami> our team is active for quite some time now
[20:23] <Kami> we started with a forum and a wiki in late 2005
[20:24] <Kami> we also organized few install parties
[20:25] <keffie_jayx> I tried to check the links and I even translated some of them so I am going to be asking a few qeustions, hope you don't mind
[20:25] <Kami> no problem
[20:25] <Kami> we also started to work on Slovene translation for Opera
[20:26] <JanC> Kami: there isn't much on your approval page...
[20:26] <keffie_jayx> the application registers parties for jaunty, any records of previous parties?
[20:26] <boredandblogging> was 9.04 the first release parties?
[20:26] <Kami> in the future we plan to organise more events in corporation with slovenian linux users group - LUGOS http://www.lugos.si/
[20:26] <keffie_jayx> Kami, that is great
[20:27] <Kami> boredandblogging: we had some before nut dont havy any links atm
[20:27] <keffie_jayx> Kami,  on information for the release parties you link to this site.. http://www.kas.si/ but I failed to see any ubuntu references in it
[20:28] <boredandblogging> Kami: you should list all activities even if you don't have links to them
[20:28] <Kami> boredandblogging:k :)
[20:29] <keffie_jayx> Kami, the effort of promoting pc's for uganda, what was you participation, (the lionk only suggest a comment in a news article)
[20:29] <boredandblogging> Kami: are there other activities that the LoCo has done that is not on the page?
[20:29] <Kami> keffie_jayx: yes the event isn't listed on the web site but it was succesffull
[20:29] <Kami> keffie_jayx: some of our members contributed some spare hardware
[20:30] <keffie_jayx> Kami, right. but it is not mentioned in your reference.
[20:30] <Kami> keffie_jayx: sorry, I guess i should put more info on the approval page
[20:30] <boredandblogging> Kami: agreed
[20:31] <keffie_jayx> Kami, it helps us if it has some great elements to prove your participation
[20:31] <keffie_jayx> Kami, I do line your forums
[20:31] <keffie_jayx> s/line/like
[20:31] <keffie_jayx> very neat ;)
[20:31] <Kami> keffie_jayx: thanks :)
[20:32] <keffie_jayx> but I do believe I would like to see more documentation on your activities
[20:32] <Kami> keffie_jayx: forum is quite active and popular here in slovenia
[20:32] <boredandblogging> I'm with keffie_jayx
[20:32] <Kami> keffie_jayx: yep will try collect more info about our activities
[20:32] <keffie_jayx> Kami,  enviable, some teams do not have such a nicely layed our teams
[20:32] <keffie_jayx> out forums
[20:32] <keffie_jayx> sorry
[20:33] <boredandblogging> some more documentation would be preferable
[20:33] <keffie_jayx> Kami, I think I don't see enough documentation on your efforts
[20:33] <Kami> keffie_jayx: would be ok with you if i collect more information about our activities and put them up on the wiki this week?
[20:33] <keffie_jayx> Kami,  would you consider coming back n a months time with more documentations to back your paritcipation i bubntun=
[20:34] <popey> nice typing keffie_jayx
[20:34]  * popey unties keffie_jayxs fingers
[20:34] <boredandblogging> lol
[20:34] <Kami> keffie_jayx: could do that :)
[20:34] <keffie_jayx> popey, sorry new keyborad
[20:34] <popey> I agree, I don't think we should vote, but instead, ask you guys to come back with a more extensive wiki page if that's okay?
[20:34] <keffie_jayx> Kami, fantastic... we will look forward to seeing your approval page in a months time ;)
[20:35] <popey> great stuff. look forward to seeing you guys again!
[20:35] <keffie_jayx> Kami, and keep up the great work
[20:35] <Kami> keffie_jayx: great, thanks! sorry I didnt put more info on the wiki for the first time
[20:37] <keffie_jayx> alright
[20:37] <keffie_jayx> that wraps our round of approvals
[20:38] <keffie_jayx> on to some topics to be discussed byt the council
[20:38] <Kami> will also try to find some pictures of the events and meetings :)
[20:38] <keffie_jayx> Kami,  that always motivates ;)
[20:38] <JanC> Kami: +1 from me on collecting more information and documenting it  ;)
[20:39] <keffie_jayx> alright
[20:39] <Kami> keffie_jayx: hehe, hopefully i'll find picture a with some girls on it :))
[20:39] <keffie_jayx> Launchpad Team report and open discussion on populating ~locoteams-approved ... by Efrain Valles
[20:39] <keffie_jayx> well
[20:40] <keffie_jayx> as a result of discussions to move forward the LoCo Directory (application that will substitute https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList) it has been suggested that we start two teams
[20:40] <keffie_jayx> in laucnhpad to serve as meta teams for the launchpad integration of the application
[20:42] <keffie_jayx> two teams were started, ~locoteams and ~locoteams-approved. the first has already been populated to 75 %. but there are some small issues, and most of them is with new teams thata are not standing on two feet just yet
[20:42] <keffie_jayx> and launchpad suffering from timeouts
[20:42] <boredandblogging> heh
[20:43] <keffie_jayx> I wanted to report that it has been a very painful process but we are alomost done with the first team.
[20:43] <boredandblogging> should we be contacting the LP for the timeouts?
[20:43] <boredandblogging> LP team
[20:43] <keffie_jayx> boredandblogging,  if they continue, yest
[20:43] <keffie_jayx> yes. it is blocking work
[20:44] <popey> keffie_jayx: are you on the launchpad beta team
[20:44] <popey> ?
[20:44] <popey> i.e. do you get directed to edge.launchpad.net or not?
[20:44] <keffie_jayx> popey, yes.
[20:44] <popey> have you tried disabling that?
[20:44] <keffie_jayx> yes, but I do disable redirection
[20:44] <Shane_Fagan> edge gets more timeouts
[20:44] <popey> :(
[20:44] <keffie_jayx> popey, it does have more than 7000 people indirectly linked to the team
[20:44] <popey> erk
[20:45] <kklimonda> keffie_jayx: what's the difference between ~locoteams and ~locoteams-approved ? Is there some approval procedure besides the one to become approved team? (I'm asking because it's empty)
[20:45] <keffie_jayx> kklimonda, it is empty for the moment. but will be populated as well
[20:45] <keffie_jayx> I have learned that the restricted team works better for that specific team
[20:46] <keffie_jayx> there are some issues raised by some temas and I would like to share with the council now.
[20:46] <keffie_jayx> * Some teams mention that they cannot use the naiming convention... ubuntu-(iso-country-code)
[20:46] <keffie_jayx> becuase some person has registered it
[20:47] <keffie_jayx> is there anything that can be done?
[20:47] <huayra> indeed, thats the case keffie_jayx for the Norwegian team and other I've seen in mailists as well
[20:47] <boredandblogging> we can check if the other team is actually active
[20:47] <popey> we can ask the other person/team nicely :)
[20:47] <keffie_jayx> popey, we as in the loco-council?
[20:48] <popey> I did that, i recently renamed my lp account from ~alanpope to ~popey by contacting the guy who had ~popey and asked him nicely if he'd give it up, he did
[20:48] <popey> there are implications for renaming things in launchpad, so best to reduce the renaming, and just take over
[20:48] <boredandblogging> popey: thats because you are such a lovable guy!
[20:48] <popey> but you have to be mindful that people might actually be using those names
[20:48] <popey> heh
[20:48] <keffie_jayx> popey, right
[20:48] <czajkowski> I did the same for launchpad once the nice guys sorted it out as someone had czajkowski but never used it.
[20:48] <boredandblogging> this might be a case-by-case scenario
[20:48] <popey> he said no initially because he'd "been known as popey for over 50 years!" :)
[20:49] <popey> yes boredandblogging
[20:49] <popey> approach with caution
[20:49] <boredandblogging> yeah
[20:49] <huayra> case by case means a lot of work.. I have used a lot of time contacting the guy just for the Norwegian Team alone and gotten no answer...
[20:49] <keffie_jayx> popey, i agree with you.. but it is painful to mantain
[20:49] <huayra> just telling you... ;)
[20:49] <boredandblogging> we have no way of forcing anyone to give up anything
[20:50] <keffie_jayx> popey,  finding ubuntu cameroon instead of ubuntu-cm
[20:50] <keffie_jayx> it is kmer
[20:51] <boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: do you have any ideas what you want to do?
[20:51] <keffie_jayx> I guess popey's assessment is right
[20:51] <popey> its up to the individual teams what they want to do, if they are happy with their name then fine :)
[20:51] <keffie_jayx> great
[20:52] <keffie_jayx> that settles that
[20:52] <keffie_jayx> about locoteams-approved.
[20:52] <boredandblogging> cool
[20:53] <keffie_jayx> I currently set it up as restricted and we shall add teams once we have verified their status
[20:53] <keffie_jayx> but all of them must have to be approved at some point again
[20:53] <kklimonda> keffie_jayx: what does "verifying" mean exactly?
[20:53] <keffie_jayx> and we have talked about reaprovals for a while now...
[20:53] <czajkowski> keffie_jayx: and how far back are you going to re approve them ?
[20:53] <kklimonda> damn, here goes polish loco ;)
[20:53] <keffie_jayx> who long till we start reaprovals
[20:53] <keffie_jayx> ?
[20:54] <keffie_jayx> again... I will add them to the team
[20:54] <keffie_jayx> but I must indicate an expiration date
[20:54] <czajkowski> kklimonda: I've nout to do the polish loco
[20:54] <keffie_jayx> it is easy for us to set it up now than later
[20:54] <keffie_jayx> as they are more than 100 teams now
[20:54] <boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: we can start again next month
[20:55] <boredandblogging> reapprovals I mean
[20:55] <popey> cool
[20:55] <keffie_jayx> ok
[20:55] <kklimonda> czajkowski: "nout"? ;)
[20:55] <keffie_jayx> my initial idea
[20:56] <ebel> kklimonda: czajkowski name is misleading :P
[20:56] <Shane_Fagan> Very true
[20:56] <kklimonda> ebel: I have no idea what "nout" mean :D
[20:56] <ebel> kklimonda: nothing
[20:56] <Shane_Fagan> Exactly
[20:56] <jpds> kklimonda: nought == zero/nothing.
[20:56] <keffie_jayx> is to have te theam be reapproved once they hit their approval date
[20:56] <keffie_jayx> example
[20:57] <keffie_jayx> ubuntu-ve's approval dates to june 2007
[20:57] <ebel> kklimonda: it's slang from northern england
[20:57] <keffie_jayx> we should have them reapprove in 4 months
[20:58] <kklimonda> czajkowski: well, your surname is indeed misleading but I know already you are in ir ;)
[20:58] <JanC> keffie_jayx: we need to warn teams beforehand though
[20:58] <ebel> kklimonda: .ie. .ir is iran :P
[20:58] <JanC> I mean, they need time to prepare
[20:58] <keffie_jayx> JanC, exaclty
[20:58] <kklimonda> ebel: argh.. that's all because of twitter ;)
[20:58] <keffie_jayx> but we need to get this going
[20:59] <keffie_jayx> and the team in launchpad could help us do this
[20:59] <keffie_jayx> Does this make sense?
[20:59] <kklimonda> keffie_jayx: what are criteria of reapproval?
[20:59] <boredandblogging> we haven't had much luck so far
[20:59] <JanC> it makes sense
[21:00] <keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, I think if we are consistent on the method we could do it
[21:00] <keffie_jayx> kklimonda, not as strenuous as the approval process
[21:00] <JanC> just that many teams might get inactive for 1-2 months, so we need to provide enough time to prepare things
[21:00] <keffie_jayx> JanC, I agree
[21:00] <huayra> should criteria be the same or higher than for new teams? Approved teams should have a higher standard
[21:01] <boredandblogging> no, we did it for several consecutive months, unfortunately maybe once approved teams are removed
[21:01] <keffie_jayx> huayra, I do not think so
[21:01] <boredandblogging> huayra: that is a separate discussion
[21:01] <boredandblogging> please add it to the agenda if you want to discuss it
[21:02] <huayra> ok, will do
[21:02] <keffie_jayx> huayra, I think if they can offer continuity to their work.. that is great :D
[21:02] <keffie_jayx> well
[21:02] <boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: lost track, what is the next step for the db?
[21:03] <keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, have teams populated and begin testing the app
[21:03] <keffie_jayx> taking info from launchpad
[21:03] <keffie_jayx> popey, juliux, JanC  thoughts?
[21:03] <JanC> that sounds okay
[21:04] <keffie_jayx> should we discuss this over email and decide next meeting?
[21:04] <keffie_jayx> it seems like we should discuss this at our own time
[21:04] <boredandblogging> think the sooner the better
[21:05] <keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, ok... let's finish this discussion on mailing list.
[21:05] <popey> +1
[21:05] <popey> :)
[21:05] <boredandblogging> ok, forum subdomains...
[21:05] <keffie_jayx> we will issue an email explaining teams that the naming issue is up to them to nicely ask, and to decide if they wanna go through the name change
[21:05] <keffie_jayx> boredandblogging, take it away
[21:06] <boredandblogging> popey brought it up by asking if we have a standard for LoCo forum subdomains
[21:06] <boredandblogging> Honduras wants a subforum...
[21:06] <boredandblogging> should it be hn.uf.or or honduras.uf.org
[21:07] <boredandblogging> the only thing I could find
[21:07] <boredandblogging> was https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCreatingForum
[21:07] <boredandblogging> which specifies what US LoCos should do
[21:07] <popey> isnt it the responsibility of the forum admins to do this?
[21:08] <boredandblogging> i'm ok with letting the forums folks decide
[21:08] <boredandblogging> all in favor of letting the forums make the choice?
[21:09] <keffie_jayx> forum guys know best
[21:09] <keffie_jayx> they deal with this day in and out
[21:09] <boredandblogging> JanC?
[21:09] <keffie_jayx> boredandblogging,  what did they suggest and is the team happy with it?
[21:09] <keffie_jayx> just out ou curiosity
[21:09] <boredandblogging> the team requested honduras.uf.org
[21:10] <boredandblogging> don't think UF cares
[21:10] <JanC> AFAIK forum policy is that the requestor decides
[21:10] <keffie_jayx> right
[21:10] <huayra> aske them nicely and they fix: http://ecuador.ubuntuforums.org/ ;)
[21:11] <boredandblogging> ok, we let forums decide
[21:11] <boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: I'm done with this topic
[21:11] <keffie_jayx> cool then
[21:11] <keffie_jayx> well gents
[21:11] <keffie_jayx> meeting ajourned...
[21:12] <jpds> Not quite!
[21:12] <jpds> --> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=6501
[21:12] <keffie_jayx> jpds, ajam
[21:12] <keffie_jayx> sorry jpds, didn't see it in the agenda
[21:12] <keffie_jayx>  ;)
[21:12] <keffie_jayx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda
[21:13] <boredandblogging> can someone translate?
[21:14] <jpds> They want a new mailing list (ubuntu-ci), i believe you guys do the approvals now ;)
[21:14] <keffie_jayx> jpds, ?
[21:14] <boredandblogging> ivory coast
[21:15] <keffie_jayx> yep
[21:15] <keffie_jayx> I see no reason whay to block a mailing list
[21:15] <boredandblogging> keffie_jayx: +1
[21:15] <keffie_jayx> popey, JanC and juliux
[21:15] <juliux> no problems
[21:15] <juliux> +1
[21:15] <keffie_jayx> this is the entry point for organizing the team better
[21:16] <keffie_jayx> long before we start a website
[21:16] <popey> sorry, wifes birthday tomorrow, trying to do secret things
[21:16] <juliux> popey: good luck
[21:16] <keffie_jayx> popey, we are almost done here
[21:16] <popey> i agree wrt ic
[21:16] <popey> +1 jpds
[21:16] <keffie_jayx> jpds,  you have a clear go on it
[21:16] <keffie_jayx> jpds,  in the future we could help you with it
[21:17] <keffie_jayx> jpds,  could you please help with planet.ubuntu-ve :(
[21:17] <keffie_jayx> :D
[21:17] <popey> jpds: feel free to poke elmo next time you speak to him about my rt account ;)
[21:17] <jpds> nothing I can do, sorry.
[21:17] <keffie_jayx> jpds, :D
[21:17] <keffie_jayx> we are done :D
[21:18] <keffie_jayx> thanks for all attendants
[21:18]  * JanC has no problem with ML either
[21:18] <JanC> why didn't we get a mail about that?
[21:19] <jpds> JanC: I'm still waiting for boredandblogging to whitelist my @ubuntu.com email for the loco-council mailing list.
[21:19] <keffie_jayx> jpds, great
[21:20] <keffie_jayx> tomorrow you will have  the minute for this meeting from me
[21:20] <JanC> jpds: all mail to loco-council should get in the moderation queue, which I look at once a day on average?
[21:20] <JanC> and I'm sure other members look at it too
[21:23] <popey> i do now and then
[21:23] <popey> but you usually get to it first i suspect, being an hour ahead of me
[21:23] <popey> ..and i get up late ;)
[21:24] <keffie_jayx> did I say it
[21:24] <keffie_jayx> Meeting Ajourned :D
[21:24] <keffie_jayx> thank you everybody
[21:25] <JanC> popey: most of the time I do it in the evening (I'm not really an early riser ;) )
[23:53] <ibuclaw> hey all
[23:53] <Bodsda> greetings
[23:53] <MontelEdwards> hey imbrandon
[23:54] <MontelEdwards> opps
[23:54] <MontelEdwards> i mean ibuclaw
[23:56] <MontelEdwards> 3 min to UFBT meeting
[23:57] <Bodsda> MontelEdwards: UBT meeting
[23:57] <MontelEdwards> Bodsda: no, UFBT
[23:58] <Bodsda> MontelEdwards: trust me, its UBT meeting, check our channel name if you dont believe me
[23:59] <MontelEdwards> Bodsda: i was thinking UbuntuForums beginners team
[23:59] <Snova> Not anymore.
[23:59] <MontelEdwards> oh
[23:59] <MontelEdwards> i must of missed that
[23:59] <Rocket2DMn> we're now the Fedora Beginner Team
[23:59] <Bodsda> MontelEdwards: yeah, it was changed... we discussed it on the mailing list
[23:59] <Bodsda> Rocket2DMn: .....BANG
[23:59] <Snova> Rocket2DMn: I'll get my hat
[23:59] <MontelEdwards> that makes us sound like Noobs :[