[21:20] <sarnold> juliank: indeed it does look awful; I don't think we've got any ideas either so all advice welcomed
[21:23] <juliank> sarnold: Unfortunately no idea :/
[21:26] <sarnold> :(
[21:27] <bdmurray> sarnold: have you heard of lp-bug-dupe-properties?
[21:28] <sarnold> bdmurray: nope
[21:28] <bdmurray> sarnold: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/24911326/
[21:29] <sarnold> bdmurray: well that's cool
[21:29] <bdmurray> I don't know how helpful that specifically is but the tool is neat.
[21:29] <sarnold> that indeed answers a question I had :) I was hoping there'd be a way to see releases affected and relative weights
[21:30] <bdmurray> well there you go!
[21:30] <sarnold> it might be skewed towards new releases because I only manually duped bugs that were filed this month. it might be identical cause with earlier bugs bug something changed "recently" to make this far worse
[21:31] <sarnold> there's always a trickle of half-installed failed upgrades but this is a real river..
[21:32] <bdmurray> It looks like there is a bug with lp-bug-dupe-properties since getting RelatedPackageVersions doesn't work. It might be worth fixing that to find the versions of apt and dpkg.
[21:33] <bdmurray> This "NULL: ConfigurePending" is weird too.
[21:34] <infinity> sarnold: The "is not a symbolic link" thing would imply to me that they have a second libssl.so.1.0.0 in their library path, and ldconfig wants to symlink to it, but can't, because the real file exists.
[21:34] <infinity> sarnold: But why that would suddenly have become an issue is a bit of a mystery.
[21:34] <sarnold> bdmurray: hrm I think I see loads of NULL: ConfigurePending
[21:34] <sarnold> it doesn't feel unique here
[21:35] <sarnold> infinity: oh ewww.
[21:35] <bdmurray> sarnold: oh you mean across all bugs?
[21:35] <infinity> sarnold: Though, ldconfig doesn't exit with an error code in that case, so that could be a red herring.
[21:35] <sarnold> bdmurray: yeah, I know I've seen it in many other bugs
[21:36] <sarnold> it might still be a contributing factor here, like I said, no ideas..
[21:36] <infinity> sarnold: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24911399/
[21:36] <infinity> sarnold: I'd posit those postinsts are failing for other reasons that aren't giving you useful terminal output.
[21:37] <sarnold> :(
[21:43] <infinity> sarnold: Oh and, indeed, they can't be failing postinsts, because the packages haven't gotten that far.
[21:43] <infinity> Hrm.
[21:44] <bdmurray> sarnold: I've confirmed your statement about NULL: ConfigurePending existing in other bug reports
[21:44] <infinity> sarnold: Plus, libssl-doc and libssl-dev are both represented here.
[21:44] <juliank> Aren't ldconfig triggers?
[21:44] <infinity> juliank: Yeah, the ldconfig thing is a red herring here.
[21:44] <infinity> The real problem is that the packages are half-unpacked.  Which is probably why there's a second libssl in the library path.
[21:45] <sarnold> does this mean dpkg isn't spitting out an error for one of its operations?
[21:45] <infinity> It could well be a dpkg bug.  Are you seeing this on all releases, or...?
[21:46] <sarnold> infinity: of the ones filed this month, it's 90% 16.04 LTS and 10% 16.10 http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/24911326/
[21:46] <infinity> Looks like at least xenial and zesty.
[21:47] <bdmurray> Preparing to unpack .../libssl1.0.0_1.0.2g-1ubuntu4.8_amd64.deb ...
[21:47] <bdmurray> Unpacking libssl1.0.0:amd64 (1.0.2g-1ubuntu4.8) over (1.0.2g-1ubuntu4.6) ...
[21:47] <bdmurray> Log ended: 2017-06-11  18:51:11
[21:47] <bdmurray> Should the log have just ended there?
[21:47] <infinity> Ideally not, but that could be an apt logging bug. :P
[21:48] <infinity> Which log was that?
[21:48] <infinity> Unpacking libssl-doc (1.0.2g-1ubuntu4.8) over (1.0.2g-1ubuntu4.6) ...
[21:48] <infinity> Log ended: 2017-06-08  17:32:24
[21:48] <infinity> ^-- From the one that later complains about libssl-doc being half-installed
[21:48] <bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssl/+bug/1692981/comments/8
[21:49] <infinity> bdmurray: Yup, so that would explain the ldconfig output on that one.
[21:49] <infinity> bdmurray: If dpkg was interrupted mid-unpack, you'd have libssl.so.1.0.0.dpkg-tmp sitting there.
[21:50] <bdmurray> Also the other full term log file show libssl-doc being unpacked and ending.
[21:50] <infinity> And, thus, two versions of the same SONAME.
[21:50] <infinity> So, in both cases, it looks like dpkg is just dying (or being interrupted by the frontend)
[21:51] <infinity> Well, s/interrupted/killed/, cause I think a SIGINT would actually unwind gracefully.
[21:51] <bdmurray> HistoryLog.txt shows "/usr/bin/dpkg exited unexpectedly"
[21:51] <infinity> Indeed it does.  Shame it doesn't log a signal.  Though I'm not sure that would be illuminating.
[21:52] <juliank> Were the upgrades unattended?
[21:52] <infinity> Commandline: aptdaemon role='role-upgrade-packages' sender=':1.3320'
[21:52] <infinity> update-manager, maybe?
[21:53] <infinity> I suppose there's a super tiny chance it could have been OOM killed.  But I wouldn't expect that to be extra bad this week compared to last.
[21:53] <infinity> Unless we recently shipped a memory leak or two.
[21:54]  * infinity looks at dmesg.
[21:54] <bdmurray> All the openssl bugs are amd64 fwiw
[21:54] <infinity> bdmurray: Could also be a red herring, just because most of our users are amd64.
[21:54] <bdmurray> right
[21:55] <infinity> Nothing remotely fun in dmesg.  Like, at all.
[21:55] <infinity> I wonder if they rebooted before apporting.
[21:55] <sarnold> oh? I thuoght I saw :386 in many of them
[21:55] <bdmurray> Oh hey - what's this? https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/fbab11d5ffef5f64e1affa33c6e5bf0330075104
[21:56] <slangasek> log on to the internerr
[21:56] <sarnold> ermagerd internerr!
[21:56] <bdmurray> sarnold: ack there are some i386 ones
[21:57] <slangasek> can we kill dpkg-split already
[21:58] <infinity> I'm blind.  Where's the indication that that crash is the same as the bug we were looking at?
[21:58] <bdmurray> infinity: its not I went looking for dpkg crashes since it died unexpectedly and found this.
[21:59] <bdmurray> I mean there is no clear indication.
[21:59] <bdmurray> But if dpkg is crashing on a stable release it wouldn't by default end up in LP.
[21:59] <infinity> Of course, related or not, that's a whole lot o' crashes.  What's the process for getting non-Canonical people access to their crash data?  I think guillem should have a poke at that.
[21:59] <bdmurray> fill out a form somewhere
[22:00] <bdmurray> https://forms.canonical.com/reports/
[22:00] <infinity> Though, that one seems to be fixed in >> xenial?
[22:00] <infinity> Which means it's probably *not* the bug we're looking at.
[22:00] <juliank> That error tracker bug looks weird
[22:01] <bdmurray> only 3 of the reports are using dpkg 1.18.10*
[22:01] <infinity> That's 3 more than 0.
[22:01] <infinity> Wait, which reports?
[22:02] <bdmurray> 3 of the duplicates of the openssl bug in Launchpad
[22:02] <infinity> For the error tracker, I see everything being <= 1.18.4
[22:02] <infinity> The openssl bug, I saw a few in newer releases, yeah.
[22:02] <infinity> Hence my guess that it's not the same issue.
[22:03] <juliank> It can't be related because it's a crash that only occurs when formatting an error message when dpkg-split failed. In which case there is nothing to partially unpack
[22:04] <slangasek> it's not a crash when formatting; it's an abort with message
[22:05] <slangasek> but still, dpkg-split
[22:05] <juliank> Ah yes, that makes more sense, it calls abort() there
[22:06] <infinity> Anyhow, still obviously unrelated, since dpkg-split isn't involved in dpkg --unpack :P
[22:06] <juliank> Yes, and fixed in newer dpkgs
[22:06] <juliank> Well, it does not abort() anymore, just logs an error
[22:06] <bdmurray> Still worth fixing in 16.04 though.
[22:07] <slangasek> it's worth suppressing those crash reports
[22:07] <slangasek> it's not really worth fixing; if dpkg-split was invoked at all, your real problem is somewhere upstream
[22:07] <mapreri> how do you ask autopktest to use multiple triggers?  I remember doing so in the past but I seem unable to now
[22:07] <slangasek> bdmurray: dpkg-split is the tool used to reassemble floppy-disk-sized fragments of a .deb into a single file on your hard drive for installation.  It's slightly obsolete
[22:07] <mapreri> with `&trigger=pkg1/version1,pkg2/version2` it says it's malformed
[22:08] <infinity> mapreri: trigger=&trigger=&trigger=
[22:08] <juliank> slangasek: That's dpkg.git commit 521e84da3a2b9ad62d5dbab0f4e1794aef149996
[22:08] <slangasek> &mushroom=&mushroom
[22:08] <mapreri> infinity: ah, thanks
[22:08] <infinity> SNAKE, AND A SNAKE.
[22:08] <juliank> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/dpkg/dpkg.git/commit/?id=521e84da3a2b9ad62d5dbab0f4e1794aef149996
[22:08] <juliank> It was fixed in 1.18.5, so should probably apply easily
[22:09] <slangasek> bdmurray: so if the best way to suppress the garbage being sent to errors.u.c is by SRUing dpkg, ok - but "fixing" that won't actually benefit users
[22:10] <infinity> More to the point, we've still got no idea what's eating dpkg on those libssl logs.
[22:10] <infinity> Which I imagine isn't related to libssl at all.  Has anyone found dupes elsewhere?
[22:10] <bdmurray> infinity: yes
[22:11] <bdmurray> bug 1692996
[22:11] <infinity> Given it's happened to libssl1.0-dev (which is a metapackage), libssl1.0.0 (a library package), and libssl-doc (static docs), it seems like just a timing coincidence.
[22:12] <infinity> bdmurray: Okay, that's mildly "comforting".
[22:13] <infinity> bdmurray: I wonder if the common thread here is that it's all aptdaemon.  Though, again, could be a red herring just due to how many aptdaemon upgrades happen.
[22:14] <infinity> Also, unless we can correlate some actual dpkg *crashes*, it really feel more like something's just murdering it.
[22:14] <infinity> s/feel/feels/
[22:14]  * bdmurray checks his cache o' bugs
[22:17] <infinity> Fine time for a server to explode.
[22:18] <infinity> mapreri: What was your full request URI?
[22:18] <infinity> mapreri: Here's an example of a working on (don't click it :P)
[22:18] <infinity> mapreri: http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/request.cgi?release=artful&arch=amd64&package=snapd&trigger=linux-meta/<IP_ADDRESS>.22&trigger=linux/4.10.0-20.22
[22:19] <infinity> mapreri: You might just need to urlencode your + and/or ~ in those versions.
[22:19] <nacc> yeah that's what i've hit in the past (urlencoding)
[22:19] <infinity> I don't recall the encoding for either of those chars because I haven't done web devel for decades, but I suspect Google can help. :P
[22:19] <sarnold> mapreri_:  <infinity> mapreri: You might just need to urlencode your + and/or ~ in those versions.
[22:20] <infinity> + = %2B and ~ = %7E
[22:21] <sarnold> hah excess flood kills too. he probably saw none of this.
[22:21] <infinity> Oh well.
[22:21]  * infinity pokes mapreri tentatively.
[22:21] <infinity> mapreri: Alive this time?
[22:22]  * infinity gives up for now until freenode gets over itself.
[22:23] <mapreri> http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/request.cgi?release=artful&arch=amd64&package=visp&trigger=visp/3.0.1-2build1&trigger=opencv/3.1.0%2Bdfsg1-1%0Aexp1 still says "malformed trigger" :\
[22:23] <mapreri> yeah, even if my client says it has quite some lag
[22:23] <mapreri> I should probably tell my bouncer to try to join channels slower than ~30 at once.
[22:23] <mapreri> luckily it happens rarely enough ^^
[22:23] <juliank> Did nobody write a request-autopkgtest script yet? :D
[22:23] <sarnold> heh 88 second ping to mapreri :)
[22:24] <infinity> mapreri: %0A is \n
[22:24] <infinity> mapreri: Not surprised it doesn't like that. ;)
[22:25] <infinity> mapreri: ~ = %7E
[22:25] <bdmurray> infinity: should I be looking for bugs where dpkg exited unexpectedly and aptdaemon is not in use and the package is in an inconsistent state?
[22:25] <infinity> bdmurray: If it's easier to prove a negative than a positive, yeah.
[22:26] <infinity> bdmurray: I mean, we want to know one way or the other if *all* related bugs involve aptdaemon, cause then we might have a clue that aptdaemon is murdering its children.
[22:26] <bdmurray> but if the package is already installed and configured that's not the same issue?
[22:26] <infinity> bdmurray: But, again, we do so much automagic upgrading with aptdaemon, it could still be a red herring. :/
[22:26] <infinity> bdmurray: already-installed-and-configured is a different bug, yes.
[22:26] <mapreri> Test request submitted.
[22:26] <mapreri> triggers
[22:26] <mapreri> ['visp/3.0.1-2build1', 'opencv/3.1.0+dfsg1-1~exp1']
[22:26] <mapreri> \o/
[22:26] <mapreri> infinity: ♥
[22:27] <slangasek> aptdaemon could still be a particular cause of some kinds of failures, e.g. apt debconf pre-configuration
[22:27] <infinity> bdmurray: This bug would key on half-installed in the terminal log, or dpkg exiting unexpectedly in the dpkg log.
[22:27] <slangasek> but that would only apply if it were really always libssl1.0.0 getting the axe
[22:28] <slangasek> ... also libssl1.0.0 has no config script, so nevermind
[22:28] <infinity> bdmurray: What I really want to know is if we have any dpkg crashes that match the same systems/times as these bugs.  If not, then it's more likely a parent committing infanticide.
[22:29] <infinity> slangasek: It's happened to libssl1.0-dev, which is just a transitional with no maintainer scripts or triggers at all, which I think rules out any packaging issues other than dpkg/frontend being derp.
[22:29]  * slangasek nods
[22:30] <bdmurray> infinity: There's not an easy way to do that but we could ask people to check their whoopsie logs or give us their system identifier.
[22:32] <infinity> I kinda want to find out that it's actually a memory leak shipped in compiz a week earlier and dpkg is being OOM-killed, just because that would be almost as much fun as Can't Print on Tuesdays.
[22:34]  * infinity tries to find one with an intact dmesg that wasn't obviously rebooted before the report was sent.
[22:35] <infinity> The fact that all of them (so far I've been through about 10) seem to have been rebooted before the report was sent.  Is that coincidence due to how/when apport runs, or could that be indicative of a larger issue that forced a reboot?
[22:35] <infinity> bdmurray: ^
[22:36] <infinity> Cause another suspicion here is that weird "cannot fork" thing I saw on my machine a while back.
[22:36] <infinity> Which would, indeed, lead to dpkg bailing during unpack.
[22:37] <sarnold> infinity: you ran into a 'cannot fork' in the wild? as root?
[22:38] <infinity> sarnold: Hard to say if I ran into as root, given that I couldn't execute anything to elevate privs.
[22:38] <infinity> sarnold: So, "maybe"? :P
[22:40] <sarnold> infinity: hehe
[22:40] <sarnold> infinity: I thought maybe that was apt/dpkg ...
[22:42] <infinity> Anyhow, every one of those dupes has a fresh dmesg.  Which might mean something, or might just mean apport doesn't do useful things until reboot.
[22:42] <infinity> In which case, sending dmesg instead of kern.log.* seems mostly useless.
[22:43] <sarnold> I'm not sure about the relative merits of kern.log vs dmesg but I close a ton of bugs are hardware related thanks to dmesg errors
[22:47] <bdmurray> An interesting thing about apport and whoopsie bug reports is that they add what's in /var/crash and I'm not seeing any dpkg crashes there.
[22:49] <infinity> bdmurray: Which might well imply that dpkg is being killed, not crashed.
[22:50] <sarnold> Bug #1699356 is libgcc1:i386 -- the dpkg history log shows "Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
[22:51] <sarnold> .. before the "Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg exited unexpectedly"
[22:53] <mapreri> could anybody merge doxygen?  doxygen-latex is uninstallable in proposed due to latex being rude at the world, and uninstallable doxygen-latex makes me sad.
[22:53] <mapreri> (happy to provide debdiffs and all, but `grab-merge doxygen` gets it right by itself…)
[22:56] <mapreri> actually, grab-merge is not enough, as the latest upload is not yet there


[01:30] <sg> hello
[04:08] <MartijnVdS> popey: http://nyantardis.com/
[06:52] <MooDoo> morning all
[06:55] <nigelb> Morning!
[06:59] <popey> Morning
[07:02] <Gary> morning
[07:02]  * Gary is still feeling sorry for himself
[07:06] <MooDoo> wassup Gary ?
[07:06] <MooDoo> morning popey
[07:13] <DJones> Morning all
[07:25] <DJones> AlanBell: COngrats on the reapproval, sorry I couldn't join in, but deepest darkest derbyshire doesn't have much in the way of internet or mobile signals
[07:28] <smittix> Morning all
[07:29] <popey> hi smittix
[07:29] <smittix> How goes it?
[07:29] <popey> how was the holiday DJones ?
[07:29] <popey> smittix: need coffee
[07:29] <smittix> heh
[07:30] <Gary> MooDoo: morning, things are okay, still in pain tho :'(
[07:31] <MooDoo> Gary: feeling poorly.
[07:33] <Gary> yeah, came off my bike on sunday, faceplanted the pavement
[07:33] <MooDoo> Gary: ouch, done that a few times :S
[07:33] <DJones> popey: It was good, nice and relaxing, lots of walking (dog now has legs that are about 2 inches shorter), visiting places, drinking wine/beer/southern comfort etc
[07:34] <popey> excellent
[07:34] <popey> feeling refreshed?
[07:34] <DJones> Knackered :)
[07:34] <Gary> MooDoo: I broke my hand too!  and have since been feeling rather sorry for myself
[07:35] <DJones> 5 mile walks up hills & down dales
[07:35] <christel> poor Gary :(
[07:35] <MooDoo> Gary: hugs
[07:35] <DJones> Gary: Sorry to hear about that, hope the recovery doesn't take too long
[07:53] <czajkowski> aloha
[07:55] <MooDoo> morning czajkowski *poke*
[07:55] <gord> "Just letting you know your bi-monthly candy was just sent from Japan and should be arriving to you in about a week." :D
[07:56] <Gary> candy!
[07:59] <MooDoo> :D
[08:06] <Ng> popey: the Morpeth on Millbank often has canoniclers on a friday
[08:07] <Ng> but many of us prefer to scurry home to our burrows ;)
[08:07] <popey> :D
[08:11] <kirrus> gord: you get candy from Japan?
[08:14] <gord> kirrus, yup
[08:15] <Myrtti> pocky ♥
[08:15] <kirrus> gord: ordered from a site, or just a friend being friendly? :)
[08:16] <gord> from a site, its a club, every other week you get sent new candy
[08:16] <gord> for €15 a month
[08:18] <HazRPG> morning all \o
[08:19] <kirrus> sounds good.. gotta link? ;)
[08:19] <gord> um candyjapan.com maybe? something like that? i have no idea
[08:20] <MooDoo> http://www.candyjapan.com/
[08:20] <kirrus> woo, thanks :)
[08:22] <diplo> morning all
[08:22] <diplo> That's the first time in 20 years that I have overslept for work :D
[08:25] <MooDoo> diplo: no excuse :D
[08:27] <diplo> Nope :(
[08:27] <diplo> Luckily on my own at work this week
[08:27] <Gary> anyone notice?
[08:29] <diplo> Not yet, work remotely from our headoffice in Nottingham
[08:29] <diplo> No missed calls, just wasn't on msn/skype
[08:30] <diplo> "I forgot to sign in this morning"
[08:30] <diplo> :D
[08:31] <MooDoo> Nottingham O_o :)
[08:32] <MooDoo> Us Nottingham Ubuntu-ers definately need a meet up :D
[08:32] <smittix> I concur!
[08:32] <diplo> I'm up on my own next month for 2-3 days
[08:32] <diplo> Staying in a hotel in the town centre
[08:32] <MooDoo> cool, pub night :D
[08:32] <diplo> So up for a meet up
[08:33] <Howie> I have returned
[08:42] <smittix> Moodoo, are you on google,
[08:42] <smittix> bah
[08:42] <smittix> s/google,/google+
[08:45] <MooDoo> smittix: yup
[08:46] <MooDoo> Paul Mellors
[08:46] <smittix> Coolio
[08:47] <popey> \o/ Google+
[08:47] <popey> I've been playing some games on it recently
[08:47] <smittix> Not related to John Mellors by any chance?
[08:47] <popey> its nice that they keep game stuff to the game stream
[08:47] <smittix> popey: You're already in my Linux Peeps circle
[08:47] <popey> heh
[08:47] <MooDoo> smittix: no :)   and i've added you :D
[08:48] <MooDoo> smittix: John?  Johnathan?
[08:48] <MooDoo> i have an uncle Johnathan
[08:48] <smittix> How old roughly?
[08:49] <smittix> The John I know is 27ish
[08:49] <MooDoo> nah not the one, he's my uncle and i'm 40 :D
[08:49] <MooDoo> well 39 :)
[08:49] <smittix> ahh heh
[08:52]  * Howie is still.here
[08:52] <MooDoo> i'll contact you guys in a couple of weeks about a beer, still waiting for the new nipper to drop.
[08:57] <Howie> help ubuntu has got stuck on a 30 second loop, and its driving me up the wall
[08:59] <Howie> any ideas
[08:59] <popey> not with that level of detail, no
[08:59] <Howie> I cant see any open aplocations and the pc is stuck.on stand by
[09:00] <Howie> and I cant stop it or get the pc off stand by
[09:01] <bigcalm> Do you have sshd running on the machine?
[09:01] <Howie> in English please
[09:01] <bigcalm> That'll be a no then
[09:02] <MooDoo> Howie: the ssh deamon, the program that allows you to SSH into your box
[09:02] <Howie> I have no idea what that is anyway
[09:02] <Howie> right
[09:02] <bigcalm> I have SSHd running on all of my linux machines, so that if they freeze, I can connect from another machine and kill whatever is causing the freeze
[09:02] <popey> Howie: have you tried turning it off and on again?
[09:02] <bigcalm> IT Crowd to the rescue
[09:03] <Howie> popey it wont turn off
[09:03] <bigcalm> Pull the power cable out
[09:03] <bigcalm> Or remove the battery
[09:03] <MooDoo> Howie: press and hold the power button for 15 seconds
[09:03] <MooDoo> it should then power off
[09:03] <bigcalm> Yes, what MooDoo says
[09:04] <Howie> it beeps twice and continues to run
[09:04] <popey> pull the power out
[09:04] <bigcalm> If it still runs after that, you have bigger problems
[09:05] <MooDoo> bigcalm: and i want to know his secret as it's running with no power :D
[09:05] <bigcalm> :)
[09:05] <Howie> wth battery backup mode active just appeared on screen for a few seconds and then it contonues being annoying
[09:05] <bigcalm> Reminds me of one of the few x-files eps. I can remember: Ghost in the Machine
[09:06] <popey> Howie: take your trolling elsewhere
[09:06] <MooDoo> Howie: just remove all power to the machine...that will sort it.....
[09:07] <popey> I believe howie to be wasting our time here.
[09:07] <Howie> popey its not trolling its me forgetting that I put a backup battery in iy
[09:07] <popey> bullshit
[09:07] <MooDoo> Howie: that won't effect anything
[09:07] <MooDoo> popey: i think that was a little harsh :S
[09:07] <christel> FIST OF DOOM
[09:07] <MooDoo> imho
[09:07] <popey> heh
[09:08] <popey> MooDoo: feel free to go back over the last year of crap we've had from him and undo that
[09:08] <popey> then come back to me and tell me it was harsh
[09:08] <MooDoo> popey: ah ok
[09:08]  * MooDoo stands corrected
[09:09]  * MooDoo wonders if it's pushing it a little too far if i mention language ;)
[09:09] <popey> yes, it is
[09:11] <bigcalm> Oh, it's him
[09:12] <popey> indeed
[09:12] <bigcalm> And now, for something completely different: http://eddirt.frozenreality.co.uk/index.php?id=783
[09:13] <popey> haha
[09:13] <bigcalm> I want me a kitten
[09:13] <smittix> That sums my cat up
[09:15] <AlanBell> MooDoo: name a pub in nottingham
[09:15] <popey> "The MooDoo Arms"
[09:15] <bigcalm> I name this pub...
[09:16] <bigcalm> Just don't break the bottle
[09:17] <diplo> I do like the pubs in Nottingham, and the people seem quite nice as well
[09:18] <czajkowski> hmm
[09:18] <czajkowski> I tried to add a pin to where we are on the UK map the other day
[09:18] <czajkowski> I think I failed
[09:18] <czajkowski> :/
[09:19] <czajkowski> feck
[09:19] <AlanBell> czajkowski: did it tell you that you already had said that?
[09:19] <MooDoo> AlanBell: the trip to jerusalem?   the bell in, the salutation inn
[09:19] <AlanBell> MooDoo: pick one
[09:19] <czajkowski> AlanBell: no I couldnt move the pin to anywhere other than "London" and I was trying to be specific
[09:19] <czajkowski> so not sure it saved
[09:19] <smittix> diplo: Except for the rioting scumbags which were in the city center not long ago.
[09:20] <MooDoo> AlanBell: salutation
[09:20] <diplo> The Bell inn is our usual I believe, that just down / opposite a tescos/mcd's ?
[09:20] <diplo> I forgot to ask my work peeps about that smittix, was it that bad ?
[09:20] <smittix> diplo: Yeah The Bell is a good pub
[09:20] <AlanBell> czajkowski: it did save, somewhere
[09:21] <bigcalm> Oo, Nottingham is only 1.5hours from here
[09:21] <smittix> diplo: Yeah It was worse than the media made it out to be. They didnt report on half the things that happened.
[09:21] <czajkowski> hmm ok
[09:21] <diplo> smittix, :(
[09:21] <AlanBell> czajkowski: it saved in Westminster, want it deleted?
[09:21] <czajkowski> I am the only person in London
[09:21] <czajkowski> I find this hard to believe
[09:21] <czajkowski> nah tis cool
[09:21] <smittix> diplo: But I have to hand it to Nottinghamshire Police they did a great job.
[09:22] <MooDoo> smittix: the only things i heard about was in st anns and mansfield
[09:22] <diplo> Nowt happened in my small town, I didn't actually here about it till monday night/tuesday morning
[09:22] <smittix> MooDoo: Bulwell, Sneinton, Meadows, Basford, Radford, St Anns.
[09:22] <czajkowski> AlanBell: can you RT my last tweet :)
[09:23] <MooDoo> smittix: where are you living at the mo?
[09:23] <smittix> MooDoo: Bulwell, Stanns, Meadows and Oxclose lane police stations were all attacked.
[09:23] <smittix> MooDoo: Cinderhill.
[09:23] <MooDoo> didn't know oxclose was :S
[09:23] <MooDoo> smittix: Calverton here
[09:24] <MooDoo> Ubuntu UK Road Trip - Nottingham '11 :D
[09:24] <czajkowski> AlanBell: thanks
[09:24] <popey> :D
[09:24] <smittix> MooDoo: Yeah, I remember you saying :). One person from Calverton was arrested.
[09:25] <MooDoo> smittix: yay :D lol
[09:25] <MooDoo> smittix: don't know the name do you?
[09:25] <smittix> I will have a look
[09:26] <MooDoo> s'ok i got it
[09:27] <MooDoo> *sigh*
[09:28] <diplo> Rain is horrible :(
[09:28] <bigcalm> I quite like the rain
[09:28] <diplo> Want to go home put heating on and watch a movie, not really making me want to stay at work
[09:29] <bigcalm> Expect when it causes flooding and I lose my car to it in 2007
[09:29] <gord> why must every program have a different key combination for re-do :(
[09:29]  * MooDoo started encoding his movies last night, shame all i've got is a laptop 2.5 hours to encode a movie :S
[09:29] <gord> we all decided on undo!
[09:29] <popey> gord: you should try SAP one day
[09:29] <gord> oh really?
[09:29] <popey> they have different function key combinations within the application on different screens
[09:29] <gord> ha nice
[09:30] <popey> refresh might be F5, F8, or perhaps Shift F2
[09:30] <bigcalm> Fun
[09:30] <popey> yeah
[09:30] <AlanBell> right, more people tell me about pubs where they live, postcode and name please
[09:31]  * popey pokes AlanBell DJones and whoever else with -irc
[09:31] <DJones> ok
[09:32] <bigcalm> Humm?
[09:33] <bigcalm> AlanBell: the LUG in my county meets here: http://shropshirelug.wordpress.com/meetings/
[09:34] <bigcalm> AlanBell: not the biggest pub, but they do have an upstairs room the LUG gets to use
[09:34] <czajkowski> http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/07/05/free-official-ubuntu-book-for-approved-loco-teams/ for offical locoteams
[09:35] <MooDoo> :)
[09:36] <AlanBell> czajkowski: applied for it when that was posted (deadline was monday)
[09:37] <MooDoo> I have the one for 10.04 LTS if any one is interested in borrowing it :D
[09:37] <gord> heh, neat. found my suse thing :) http://ubuntuone.com/p/1BCk/
[09:37] <gord> *puts it next to the wookie that guards his computer from viruses*
[09:38] <popey> hehe, i have one of them
[09:38] <popey> it's in Sams bed
[09:38] <MooDoo> gord: not seen mine in years :)
[09:38] <gord> mine was behind the coffee in the kitchen cabinet - smells like coffee now :)
[09:39] <gord> oh right yes, i took a photo on my phone *watches u1 notify-osd spam me on all my computers*
[09:40] <smittix> I want one of those Tux Droids
[09:41] <AlanBell> http://ubuntu-uk.org/happy-hour/
[09:41] <AlanBell> need moar pubs
[09:41]  * popey will tweet this.
[09:41] <AlanBell> then I will mix the order up a bit
[09:41] <popey> can you put some text on that page which describes what we plan?
[09:43] <gord> the planned route isn't too helpful, just lots of red lines with no progression indicatied
[09:43] <diplo> That is some distance to travel AlanBell :D
[09:43] <MooDoo> is there a way to add a pub yourself?
[09:43] <AlanBell> MooDoo: sure, register on the site and I will bump you up to editor
[09:43] <MooDoo> ok thank you
[09:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: Have you discovered whether the WP/Apache/PHP issue is still there on a later version of Ubuntu?
[09:48] <AlanBell> http://ubuntu-uk.org/happy-hour/
[09:49] <bigcalm> Zoomed out, the pin looks as though it's in Wolverhampton. It's Telford if that gives and +/- points :)
[09:50] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer: no, all of them run LTS
[09:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> ok
[09:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> ty
[09:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyone know how to get schema and data out of MSSQL so it could be imported in MySQL or something more free and useful?
[09:52] <smittix> I should be ashamed of myself. Its the first time I have installed 11.10
[09:52] <smittix> Liking the login screen.
[09:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> smittix: I'm still on 10.10 currently. Can't bring myself to get all unityfied just yet.
[09:53] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer, don't blame you
[09:53] <smittix> TheOpenSourcerer: To be honest I hated unity to start with because it was so different. But now I love it.
[09:53] <MooDoo> i was in oneiric, then it crashed to much, so went to 10.04, just upgrated to maverick last night
[09:53] <directhex> unity's implementation in natty is really really really really really really really really bugged
[09:54] <smittix> I have no problems in Natty at all.
[09:57] <DJones> Ouch, on exam results day, the UCAS website has crashed and had to been taken offline
[09:58] <MooDoo> ooops
[10:01] <kirrus> TheOpenSourcerer: you can upgrade, and still use Gnome2, just on the login screen select 'Ubuntu Classic'. I had to, as Unity kept flipping my workspace orientation, so nothing was where I put it :/
[10:01] <bigcalm> If only they could have predicted when it will be in high demand...
[10:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> kirrus: Yeah I can, but why? 10.10 is stable and reliable. I use this for work and don't really have time to get to grips with all the other UI changes right now.
[10:04] <kirrus> Newer version of firefox? I tend to upgrade just because I've seen what happens to machines that don't get upgraded, ever. (i.e. they're a pig to get up-to-date, or they just break when you try)
[10:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> I am running FF6 this morning.
[10:05] <bigcalm> Same here (think I was yesterday as well). When will this crazyness end?
[10:05] <bigcalm> The guy who does the HTML Validator extension has stopped releasing until the API settles down :(
[10:06] <directhex> bigcalm, never, then
[10:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> I'm not very happy about the Mozilla 6weekly release schedule. As an extension dev (for Thunderbird which is also now on the 6 week cycle) it is a pain in the bottom.
[10:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> It's just a number! WTF can't they update a minor one rather than a major?
[10:06] <gord> the new api they are making is supposed to fix that problem
[10:07] <gord> if its just a number why does it matter?
[10:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> The way you specify the version an extension relies on major numbers.
[10:08] <directhex> install.rdf, isn't it?
[10:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yeah
[10:09] <diplo> TheOpenSourcerer, re MSSQL, could use php/perl to extract and put into mysql
[10:09] <diplo> I did it at my last job

[10:10] <directhex> who te hell uses toy products like mssql?
[10:10] <AlanBell> one of our customers
[10:10] <MooDoo> o/
[10:10] <AlanBell> so we are going to put it in a real database
[10:10] <AlanBell> but there is a lack of sensible export options from MSSQL
[10:11] <directhex> that's not how lock-in works
[10:11] <AlanBell> http://www.convert-in.com/mss2sql.htm this looks like it might work
[10:11] <diplo> heh, we had quite a few software companies dependant on it, so we let them use it and exported the data to mysql to do with it what we wanted
[10:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> There are a few commercial tools. There used to be a MySQL tool but that EOL'd in 2008
[10:12] <diplo> yeah that was the issue I came across TheOpenSourcerer
[10:12] <AlanBell> however a free softare mysqldump tool for mssql would be kind of nice
[10:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://ms2my.sourceforge.net/
[10:12] <diplo> There is AlanBell, you can do CLI with MSSQL
[10:12] <diplo> trying to remember commands, has been a while since I had to do it
[10:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> Last Update   2009-07-17   :-(
[10:13] <diplo> Not sure if it's human readable though like mysqldump
[10:14] <diplo> Also seems to be http://sqldump.sourceforge.net
[10:14] <diplo> lol 2002
[10:14] <diplo> :D
[10:14] <diplo> 2005 MSSQL ?
[10:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Aa174646
[10:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> Can't tell if that handles the schema or not.
[10:16] <diplo> yeah looks like what I used
[10:17] <diplo> http://blog.simonholywell.com/post/374215441/sql-server-2005-dump-to-sql-statements
[10:19] <diplo> My brother is a MSSQL chap, want me to ask how to dump the schema ?
[10:19] <kazade> morning all
[10:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> That would be kind diplo - thanks. If he has time of course.
[10:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> That blog post and the DPW look to be helpful too. Thanks.
[10:21] <smittix> Does anyone here have a Vega Tablet?
[10:22] <diplo> Will send him a text now, he was always my fall guy when I got stuck with MSSQL, not really my speciality by any means, but I normally get by, but not having to touch it for nearly 2 years doesn't help :)
[10:24] <AlanBell> £875 for a linux ODBC driver for MSSQL!
[10:24] <AlanBell> http://www.easysoft.com/products/data_access/odbc-sql-server-driver/index.html
[10:24] <diplo> Don't need it.. can do it with a pear module
[10:25] <jml> hello
[10:25] <diplo> http://pear.php.net/package/MDB2_Driver_mssql/redirected
[10:25] <diplo> I believe
[10:25] <jml> so, after a very long and painful process, I've got cuts, in .ogv, for all the bits of my screencast that I want.
[10:25] <jml> now I want to put them together and publish them
[10:25] <jml> I basically have no idea how to do this
[10:25] <AlanBell> openshot \o/
[10:25] <jml> mencoder doesn't output ogv for me
[10:26] <jml> AlanBell: openshot is fail
[10:26] <jml> AlanBell: it snips off beginnings and ends of clips
[10:26] <jml> AlanBell: at least when I am playing back within openshot
[10:27] <AlanBell> hmm, try a test render, I have not seen that problem
[10:33] <smittix> Hmm my Google+ Invites arent going down.
[10:34] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: I can't stop playing "Kakkaoi!" song :P
[10:34] <smittix> If you listen to this you will not get it out of your head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bAN7Ts0xBo
[10:35] <HazRPG> smittix: heh, man I haven't heard that in years XD
[10:36] <diplo> No mine don't either
[10:36] <diplo> Don't think they are are really doing it, just a ploy to say it's in "Beta"
[10:36] <HazRPG> when me and my friends first heard that song in like 2000, we all went out and were doing the dance constantly
[10:36] <smittix> HazRPG: I actually like it.
[10:37] <HazRPG> then WoW:BC came out, people all thought we were imitating the Draenei dance
[10:38] <MooDoo> morning davmor2
[10:39] <davmor2> morning MooDoo
[10:39] <smittix> HazRPG: haha
[10:40] <HazRPG> smittix: yeah I do too, I first heard heard the song in Saudi on the asian Channel V music channel, it use to be a random channel, mainly English songs played - but they're occasionally do music from all across asia (india, china, korea, japan, etc)
[10:42] <HazRPG> there was another Punjabi song I really liked back then, but because I can't really remember the lyrics (and since you can't do a google search on an image that's in your head) ... I could never find it
[10:44] <smittix> HazRPG: This one makes me laugh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyC1BrQd6g
[10:45] <jml> AlanBell: basically, Openshot's internal playback is very unreliable for me
[10:46] <jml> but the output render seems to go ok
[10:47] <AlanBell> I think the internal renderer tries to play back realtime even if it can't get the data on screen fast enough
[10:48] <diplo> Anyone else here having issues with Chomium recently since a recent update, seems to just lock up ( go grey )
[10:48] <diplo> Just from a selecting a link
[10:49] <HazRPG> smittix: heh that dude looks familiar!
[10:49] <directhex> diplo, close all chromium windows. run a ps -ef | grep chromium. you may have a defective chromium flash process
[10:49] <HazRPG> smittix: haha no wait, I have heard this song before XD
[10:50] <andybleaden> I would love to get an Ubuntu hour up here in Manchester...perhaps one of the wifi friendlier pubs in the city...
[10:50] <HazRPG> smittix: it was another song I heard on Channel V
[10:50] <diplo> It keeps happening directhex even after reboots since maybe 2 days ago
[10:52] <MooDoo> andybleaden: tell AlanBell about a put and get it added to the list :)
[10:53] <MooDoo> andybleaden: pub not put :)
[10:53] <AlanBell> andybleaden: pick a pub name and postcode
[10:54] <andybleaden> does it have to have wifi
[10:54] <andybleaden> or just nice beer
[10:54] <AlanBell> beer
[10:54] <andybleaden> dont rush now!
[10:54] <andybleaden> I would go for the marble arch then
[10:54] <sally> I nominate the Crown Beeston Nottingham NG9 1FY http://www.everards.co.uk/pubs/crown_inn_173/
[10:55] <MooDoo> sally: FTW!
[10:55]  * AlanBell adds that to the list, thanks sally
[10:55] <MooDoo> sally: another nottingham user eh :D
[10:55] <andybleaden> Marble Arch 73 Rochdale Road Manchester M4 4HY
[10:56] <andybleaden> brew their own beer too!
[10:56] <MooDoo> #ubuntu-uk-notts-branch :)
[10:56] <andybleaden> http://www.marblebeers.co.uk/
[10:56] <sally> MooDoo :) link?
[10:57] <MooDoo> sally: i was just creating a irc channel as a joke :) although i'm in it lol
[10:57] <andybleaden> Marble is also easy public transport wise in Manchester and away from the noisy part
[10:58] <andybleaden> many others here in GM area?
[10:58] <HazRPG> smittix: if you wanna hear something really random... just before saudi arabian channel 2 (they only had 2 local TV channels) was turned on or opened up, this was the song that played, just to let you know they were about to start the first program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajf6WO4MuSg
[10:59] <christel> AlanBell: i nominate the hop blossom
[11:03] <diplo> TheOpenSourcerer, my brother is on hols but said ossql is what you want
[11:03] <diplo> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa213088%28v=sql.80%29.aspx
[11:03] <Laney> wait more notts people?
[11:03] <diplo> I remember now that is what I used
[11:03] <diplo> o/ - Sorta
[11:03] <diplo> I pop up for work every other month or so
[11:03] <andybleaden> AlanBell,  Marble Arch 73 Rochdale Road Manchester M4 4HY
[11:06] <MooDoo> Laney: a few more yeah :)
[11:06] <HazRPG> smittix: heh, score managed to find it... was trying to find a song that I head on Channel V on my last holiday to the Philippines. Ironically their influence is Michael Jackson (and you can tell from the style of the music and the dance): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3T8GdADIs
[11:06] <MooDoo> Laney: diplo smittix and sally was here, she's from beeston :D
[11:07] <MooDoo> Laney: got her in #ubuntu-uk-nottingham lol :)
[11:07] <Laney> heh
[11:07] <Laney> i live in beeston too
[11:07] <Laney> small world eh
[11:07] <MooDoo> Laney: yeah considering i used to live in chilwell :)
[11:08] <popey> \o/ subteams
[11:08] <directhex> i live in a pineapple under the sea
[11:08] <MooDoo> yup #ubuntu-uk-nottingham is alive and well :D
[11:08] <MooDoo> *snigger*
[11:09] <paddax_> j lwjgl
[11:09] <MooDoo> does that mean AlanBell / popey / czajkowski will have to do uk subteam approvals ;)
[11:10] <smittix> HazRPG: Catchy song!
[11:10] <smittix> Laney: Cinderhill Here :)
[11:10] <HazRPG> smittix: isn't it just! Its korean iirc
[11:11] <AlanBell> MooDoo: yes, but I have heard the UK subteam approval board is quite corrupt and open to bribery
[11:11] <Laney> arr, good ol' phoenix park
[11:11] <MooDoo> AlanBell: i should hope so :)
[11:12] <hoover> morning all
[11:12] <Laney> MooDoo lives in some strange village out in the sticks
[11:12] <hoover> or good afternoon rather
[11:12]  * MooDoo would like to have the #ubuntu-uk-nottingham subteam approved....cash on its way to AlanBell :)
[11:13] <MooDoo> Laney: pah! yeah ok your right :D
[11:13] <Laney> it's alright, working in the city qualifies you for membership
[11:13] <MooDoo> phew :)
[11:14] <MooDoo> and not far from the trip either ;)
[11:14] <Laney> heart, right?
[11:14] <MooDoo> yeah
[11:14] <Laney> near the donor centre
[11:15] <MooDoo> Laney: are you stalking me ;)
[11:15] <Laney> no, i just see it when i go there to donate
[11:15] <HazRPG> smittix: I thought I wrote more song titles down in my journal, but seems not! Must have had them down on a piece of paper or something and lost them
[11:15] <MooDoo> ah cool :)
[11:16] <Laney> which I hope you do too :-)
[11:16] <MooDoo> Laney: alas no
[11:16] <MooDoo> Laney: i carry a medical green card which means i'm not allowed
[11:16] <Laney> :(
[11:17] <MooDoo> Laney: which does annoy me seeing as i work next door lol
[11:17] <gord> Android fans! is there any way i can block text numbers?
[11:17] <directhex> i can't donate
[11:18] <directhex> they get tetchy when you pass out from just being in te building
[11:18] <MooDoo> gord: there is if you're using cyanogen, i'm not sure it blocks texts though
[11:18] <Laney> I have a pretty cool hole pattern on my inside elbow from donating
[11:20] <czajkowski> kazade: did you get your mac issue resolved?
[11:20] <HazRPG> smittix: haha, this one's random too... more korean stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mPqycQ0tQ (song doesn't start until 0:20 or so)
[11:20] <HazRPG> I'll leave it at  that, otherwise I'll just spend all day on youtube lol
[11:20] <gord> MooDoo, using stock :)
[11:20] <MooDoo> ok
[11:21] <gord> getting spamvertisements about my "accident"
[11:21] <gord> are they talking about when i tripped over my cat? i don't want to sue my cat
[11:27] <MooDoo> well if any nottingham users have anything they want to say and don't want to spam this main channel the other one has a guard on it now.....i can delete it any time :D
[11:34] <Myrtti> popey ♥
[11:36] <DJones> gord: If your phone company don't offer teh facility to block certain numbers from sending texts, this may help https://market.android.com/details?id=org.baole.app.antismsspam&feature=search_result
[11:36] <dutchie> quick question: usb wireless adapters: likely to Just Work with 11.04 or not?
[11:37] <gord> DJones, neat, thanks
[11:46] <kazade> czajkowski: nah, but I found a bug report somewhere. Basically I can tap to click, but clicking the actual button confuses Ubuntu (it thinks I'm multitouching)
[11:46] <czajkowski> :/
[11:46] <kazade> it's not a big deal - I fixed a shedload of other weird quirks...
[11:46] <czajkowski> ah ok
[11:46] <kazade> my biggest annoyance is the Nvidia drivers - which suck
[11:47] <czajkowski> indeed
[11:47] <kazade> I can't hot plug my external monitor because Nvidia *STILL* don't support xrandr - which everyone else has been supporting for ages
[11:47] <directhex> you can hot plug it via nvidia-settings though
[11:47] <kazade> you mean, opening the nvidia settings window and enabling it?
[11:47] <gord> kazade, not tried nouvou or however its spelt?
[11:48] <kazade> Nouveau works like a dream...
[11:48] <kazade> but freezes about once an hour - forcing a hard reset
[11:48] <directhex> kazade, right. nvidia-settings can enable/disable monitors without restarting x
[11:48] <kazade> directhex: true, but, I have my external monitor set as my primary, guess what happens if I unplug it?
[11:48] <kazade> I lose the side of my desktop with gnome shell on it
[11:48] <directhex> joyfun
[11:48] <kazade> indeed
[11:49] <kazade> nouveau works awesomely in that regard - but it freezes :(
[12:03] <Gary> hey Matt
[12:07] <AlanBell> hi Gary
[12:08] <AlanBell> Gary: do you have an irssi command to alias /20 to /window 20 for all numbers at once?
[12:08] <Gary> erm, yes, somewhow
[12:11] <Gary> window_switcher.pl is what I use
[12:11] <Gary> http://scripts.irssi.org/html/window_switcher.pl.html
[12:13] <AlanBell> ok, nice, but not quite what I was after
[12:13] <Gary> I think thats what I use
[12:14] <Gary> I just do a /23 to go to window 23
[12:16] <popey> i just have a giant list of aliases
[12:17] <gord> i just stopped using irssi once i got over 20 windows ;)
[12:18]  * Laney has a window list
[12:18] <popey> ditto
[12:18] <Laney> >> (e=13|#ubuntu-uk r=14|&bitlbee   t=15|#ub~eeting y=16|#debi~evel et cetera
[12:19] <popey> http://popey.com/~alan/irssi.png
[12:22] <Laney> http://orangesquash.org.uk/~laney/irssi.png
[12:22] <Laney> ancient (phorm reference!) but it's pretty much like that still
[12:31]  * MooDoo feels left out that he only has 9 irssi windows
[12:31] <dwatkins> I try to keep mine down to 15 or so
[12:33] <Myrtti> I just remember them by number...
[12:34] <popey> Laney: I couldn't copye with the abbreviations :D
[12:34] <Laney> i kind of got used to them
[12:34] <Laney> muscle memory tells me where most of the important channels are
[12:35] <Myrtti> ^
[12:35] <popey> heh
[12:36] <mfraz74> I'm trying to follow the tutorial at http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/packaging-from-scratch.html, but I'm getting stuck at the "make" stage
[12:37] <AlanBell> hi mfraz74
[12:37] <mfraz74> hi AlanBell
[12:37] <mfraz74> paste.ubuntu.com/669191
[12:38] <mfraz74> any ideas?
[12:41] <AlanBell> not really, but that looks more like "doesn't compile" than it "doesn't package"
[12:41] <AlanBell> did you write the code?
[12:42] <mfraz74> no, i was following the tutorial I iposted, cmake worked and then I tried make which failed
[12:45] <AlanBell> oh, right
[12:46] <AlanBell> did you install libqrencode-dev libzbar-dev libzbarqt-dev
[12:46] <gord> heh neat, my little experiment with only passively cooling this atom machine worked out well, cpu is at 20 degrees after a day of running :)
[12:46] <mfraz74> AlanBell: yes, they are all installed
[12:47] <MooDoo> Laney: you on google+
[12:47] <Laney> yes
[12:48] <AlanBell> mfraz74: what version of Ubuntu are you using?
[12:48] <popey> jml: just watched your video, so does this mean Launchpad now accepts binary-only packages in ppas? I thought it only accepted open source packages that build on launchpad farm?
[12:48] <jussi> popey: DAMN!!! that media player looks amazing for the price
[12:49] <popey> yeah
[12:49] <mfraz74> AlanBell: kubuntu 11.04
[12:51] <jussi> popey: I might have to get you to order and send it to me - seems ebuyer doesnt do overseas
[12:51] <jml> popey: terms of service are still the same: you can use PPAs for free only if you're uploading open source stuff
[12:51] <jml> popey: we use PPAs as the mechanism to distribute commercial games etc in the software center
[12:52] <popey> so that demo wouldn't work for me?
[12:52] <popey> if I got pkgme and tried to upload a blob?
[12:52]  * nigelb notes popey should have been there at jml's Q & A. :)
[12:52]  * popey notes he didnt know there was a Q & A.
[12:52] <jml> popey: it would, (although see the follow-up blog post http://code.mumak.net/2011/08/how-dependency-guessing-works.html) ... but you'd be violating the Launchpad terms of service, and we'd take it down when we found out about it.
[12:52] <smittix> Any nottingham users I can add to my NottsLinux Circle on google+?
[12:53] <nigelb> popey: I wish there was more pbulicity planned.
[12:54] <popey> jml: so at some point of time in the future when developer.u.c is working and pkgme is done, I could somehow register for a special ppa which lets me upload blobs, and do effectively what you did?
[12:54] <jml> popey: LP is a libre code base providing a gratis service for libre apps, and a paid service for proprietary apps
[12:54] <jml> popey: yes, pretty much.
[12:54] <popey> of course, yes
[12:55] <popey> I forgot about the pay-for service
[12:55] <popey> does the pay-for service come at an apple-like XX$/yr or is it %age of revenue or a mix of both?
[12:55] <jml> there are some interesting things that come out of this, though
[12:55] <popey> or is that not known yet?
[12:55] <jml> popey: umm... it is known, but I don't actually know off the top of my head
[12:56] <popey> is it public info?
[12:56] <AlanBell> mfraz74: I would suggest trying some other random app
[12:57] <popey> or commercially sensitive canonical info?
[12:57] <jml> I don't know :\
[12:57] <popey> (I am not trying to trip you up, just wondering)
[12:57] <mfraz74> AlanBell: OK, I'm trying to build akonadi-facebook now
[12:57] <jml> I'm looking for a public source
[12:57] <AlanBell> not sure who is responsible for developer.ubuntu.com but there shouldn't be tutorials there which don't work
[12:58] <jml> popey: fwiw, you can submit binary blobs now, it's just that someone at Canonical will package them manually for you.
[12:59] <jml> or you can package them yourself, as rickspencer3 did w/ photobomb
[12:59] <popey> AlanBell: previews of upcoming functionality are good though
[13:00] <jml> popey: I can only find internal information, so I'm going to assume it's company-confidential for now. Sorry.
[13:00] <popey> ok, no worries
[13:00] <popey> if/when I get to that point, I'll ask :D
[13:00] <jml> :)
[13:00] <jml> to me, there's interesting stuff that comes out of this
[13:01] <popey> totally
[13:01] <jml> making it easy for commercial apps to get into the software center for stable ubuntu releases is great
[13:01] <jml> but, imo, it's got to be as easy for free apps
[13:01] <popey> http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/commercial/ lol
[13:01] <jml> yeah :)
[13:01] <popey> we (podcast) should talk to someone about this in an interview
[13:01] <popey> who would be the best person to talk to?
[13:02]  * popey glares at jml
[13:02] <jml> http://developer.ubuntu.com/myapps-packages/ is the only other thing I can think of
[13:02] <MartijnVdS> wow, mono is shiny in oneiric today
[13:02] <jml> popey: me, rickspencer3, maybe Steve George.
[13:03] <popey> shall I mail all three?
[13:03] <popey> or do you want to sort it out amongst yourselves :D
[13:04] <jml> popey: email me & I can do the internal shuffling :)
[13:04] <popey> will do
[13:04] <jml> popey: also, the transcript from my https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WeeklyQandA might be worth reading.
[13:04] <popey> thanks
[13:04] <popey> your first name at ubuntu dot com?
[13:06] <jml> popey: no, that's riddell. :) I'm not an Ubuntu member.
[13:07] <jml> popey: my nick at canonical.
[13:07] <popey> ah, doh :D
[13:07] <daubers> urgh, it's a touch wet outside
[13:07] <HazRPG> and off we go on the android sdk wacky install races!
[13:07] <HazRPG> daubers: hurray for UK weather \o/
[13:08] <HazRPG> hmm, interesting, java 7 just recently got released
[13:10] <daubers> HazRPG: it breaks bits of apache
[13:11] <popey> \o/ Java 1.4.2
[13:11] <HazRPG> does it? How so?
[13:11] <daubers> HazRPG: http://www.developerfusion.com/news/123346/java-7-breaks-apache-projects/
[13:14]  * hoover just wrote his first greasemonkey script, yay ;-)
[13:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> It is *really* raining here.
[13:30] <MooDoo> lets hope it stays there then :)
[13:31] <popey> oh look, bug 754505
[13:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> Bloody hell - rain getting heavier
[13:41] <daubers> Today I mostly wish to scream
[13:42] <bigcalm> Sun is shining here
[13:42] <bigcalm> This is despite the forecast of heavy rain all day
[13:43] <daubers> bigcalm: It'll be back
[13:48] <daubers> and there it is :)
[13:51]  * daubers needs spotify suggestions
[13:53] <bigcalm> What's your mood?
[13:54] <christel> http://open.spotify.com/track/1Nukcy7xk7AbS7MtkaiOe3
[14:01] <bigcalm> Bouncy
[14:05] <daubers> bigcalm: trying to calm down and not be shouty at really dumb people
[14:18] <hoover> cheers all
[14:20] <bigcalm> daubers: not this then? http://open.spotify.com/track/3iv0TOFQ0dzLhGY4jSSXt0
[14:21] <daubers> bigcalm: Probably not
[14:21]  * bigcalm likes that track a lot
[14:42]  * popey clicks "I have spotify" then "Launch application". Nothing happens
[14:43] <bigcalm> The app launches for me
[14:43] <bigcalm> But never opens the track/album
[14:43] <bigcalm> I have to copy the http url and change it to a spotify:one
[14:43] <bigcalm> That's linux for you, pfft
[14:43] <daubers> popey: snap
[14:57] <bigcalm> WOOP!
[14:57] <bigcalm> New DMSB
[14:57] <daubers> DMSB?
[14:57] <daubers> Domineeringly miniscule suave brother?
[14:57] <bigcalm> Anybody else know? :)
[14:59] <DJones> google throws up a few suggestions http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/DMSB The McDonalds sounds the best option :)
[14:59] <bigcalm> It's a podcast
[14:59] <bigcalm> Hopefully that'll narrow it down
[15:02] <bigcalm> David Mitchell's SoapBox
[15:04] <popey> ooo
[15:30]  * daubers needs caffeine
[15:41] <MooDoo> fourstone1!
[15:41] <MooDoo> ooops
[15:41] <MooDoo> lol
[15:43] <livingdaylight> anyone play with the weather screenlet? Seems set to Korea by default and don't see how to change it. In properties there is a zip code dialog, but enterming my postcode returns an error
[16:02] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jo Shields] Why we mustnt allow smartphones to become a 2 or 3 horse race - http://apebox.org/wordpress/rants/391/
[16:19]  * daubers prods ldap with a stick and runs
[16:20]  * MartijnVdS watches LDAP rise up and eat daubers
[16:24] <daubers> MartijnVdS: Thats what normally happens when I poke it
[16:28] <bigcalm> ¬.¬
[16:29] <jchristel> i say
[16:29] <bigcalm> I wonder if he's being attacked
[16:30] <bigcalm> Providing services leaves one open for abuse from unhappy people
[16:30] <gord> being attacked doesn't cause you to excess flood surely
[16:30] <bigcalm> That's what I thought, but I'm trying to think back to my ircnet days
[16:31] <bigcalm> I recall a silly attack where you send a butt load of messages to a user and their quit message was usually Excess Flood, rather than Ping Timeout
[16:32] <bigcalm> This was late 90s though
[16:32] <Lcawte> Hmm, wonder if the nvidia-96 driver has been updated yet
[16:35] <popey> er
[16:42] <Myrtti> tsktsk
[16:46] <Myrtti> looks like it's stable now
[16:50] <bigcalm> Is there a block select in Eclipse?
[16:53] <andypiper> I thought so
[16:53]  * andypiper tries to remember how to invoke
[16:54] <andypiper> alt+shift+a toggle?
[16:54] <bigcalm> Turns out it was quicker to do it by hand than to find the key combo
[16:54] <andypiper> lol
[16:54] <andypiper> soz
[16:54] <bigcalm> No worries ;)
[16:55] <bigcalm> But, it's good to have for future needs, thanks :)
[16:55] <andypiper> i think that's it, might be editor-specific though
[16:56] <bigcalm> alt+shift+a worked for me
[16:58] <Myrtti> Azelphur: connection problems? or trying a new silly IRC client?
[17:04] <popey> bah!
[17:08] <hamitron> indeed
[17:09] <hamitron> what would make a chroot jail running bash, close?
[17:09] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: schroot?
[17:09] <MartijnVdS> uhr ait
[17:09] <MartijnVdS> wait
[17:10] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: anything that kills that bash process
[17:10] <hamitron> I was supposed to be compiling stuff and installing in a chroot jail
[17:10] <hamitron> and now I notice I have no jail
[17:10] <hamitron> \o/
[17:10] <MartijnVdS> If I have to manage chroots, I use schroot
[17:10] <MartijnVdS> it's ++
[17:10] <hamitron> k :)
[17:11] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: Debian (and Ubuntu)'s default bashrc has a cool feature for it
[17:11] <MartijnVdS> it shows a marker in your prompt if you are in a schroot-chroot
[17:12] <hamitron> I think I probably used none defaults
[17:12] <hamitron> as lfs instructions say
[17:12] <hamitron> ;)
[17:32] <dwatkins> My prompt has a smiley to reflect success or failure of a command.
[17:33] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: cool :)
[17:34] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: how do you do that?
[17:37] <ging> i want a smilie prompt
[17:52] <judgey> omg omg omg i had some nightmears :(
[17:53] <MartijnVdS> and it's not even night!
[17:54] <judgey> tell me about it lol
[17:55] <judgey> anyhow i was in here lastnight, i got a line of code and now i dont know it, i just installed lamp again and phpmyadmin but there was a line of code to make phpmyadmin to work.
[17:55] <MartijnVdS> judgey: isn't it on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/phpMyAdmin ?
[17:58] <judgey> thanks MartijnVdS  ;)
[18:00] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[18:15] <judgey> reinstalling again plz plz be last time
[18:21] <popey> AlanBell: http://twitter.com/#!/JohnPinner/status/104226443424309248
[18:21] <popey> AlanBell: http://twitter.com/#!/rmounce/status/104224474227945472
[18:32] <popey> AlanBell: http://twitter.com/#!/davmor2/status/104257753823969280
[18:32] <popey> :D
[18:33] <davmor2> popey: what's with the LOL on that one  serious options :P
[18:35] <davmor2> popey: oh you down to like 5 meg then
[18:41] <Myrtti> awww, poor popey :-(
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> The UK has bandwidth caps on wired connections?
[18:49] <MartijnVdS> How 1990s ;)
[18:50] <dwatkins> If you pay enough they give you so-called unlimited bandwidth.
[18:50] <dwatkins> Not all ISPs cap in this way, however.
[18:52] <MartijnVdS> We only have it on mobile internet connections here
[18:52] <MartijnVdS> Those used to be "unlimited" but now you get them in 100MB increments for way too much money :(
[19:09] <judgey> can a website run from this path?
[19:10] <judgey> .../home/host2k10/public_html
[19:10] <judgey> i though tit had to be www.
[19:10] <judgey> it
[19:11] <judgey> just playing with somthign and it installed it there
[19:16] <judgey> seems it dose
[19:21] <daubers> Evening
[19:36] <ikonia> directhex: ping
[19:37] <directhex> ikonia, i don't wanna hear it -__
[19:37] <directhex> -_-
[19:37] <ikonia> I've still not heard it
[19:37] <ikonia> you are breaking it to me, I've just sent a text to a collegue
[19:38] <directhex> i informed my colleagues too. we're contractors working on touchpad!
[19:38] <ikonia> I sat in a meeting on Friday of last week with the product manager
[19:38] <ikonia> nothing was hinted at at all
[19:38] <mgdm> directhex: eek :/
[19:38] <ikonia> stern faced he said "all on track"
[19:39] <ikonia> directhex: I'm sorry
[19:39] <ikonia> tomorrow will be interesting for me now
[19:40] <directhex> ikonia, my pre3 shipped from the palm webstore 30 minutes ago! >_<
[19:40] <ikonia> whoaaaa
[19:40] <ikonia> now that stings
[19:41] <andylockran> hey guys
[19:42] <bigcalm> Hola
[19:43] <andylockran> I could do with some advice, I want to parse a html file using python
[19:43] <dutchie> beautifulsoup
[19:43] <ali1234> dont use regexps
[19:43] <andylockran> i.e. the page is a 'structured' report
[19:43] <andylockran> I'm having issues with BeautifulSoup printing chinese :)
[19:46] <ali1234> set the encoding on your strings
[19:47] <andylockran> ali1234: how to do?
[19:47] <andylockran> I'll dpaste my code
[19:48] <ali1234> print mystring.encode('utf8')
[19:48] <andylockran> http://paste.debian.net/126651/
[19:48] <ali1234> don't forget to paste the error message as well
[19:49] <andylockran> ali1234:
[19:49] <andylockran> I don't get an error message
[19:50] <andylockran> if I uncomment the prettify command
[19:50] <ali1234> s is an object
[19:50] <ali1234> use the methods
[19:53] <andylockran> ok
[19:54] <andylockran> http://pastebin.com/Gxmjq5dt
[19:54] <andylockran> ali1234: can you explain why that works, and mine doesn't?
[19:55] <ali1234> not unless you show me the dods.html
[19:55] <ali1234> and the way you invoke the script
[19:56] <ali1234> if you don't get an error message, how do you know it doesn't work?
[19:56] <andylockran> ali1234: it prints a load of unicode stuff
[19:56] <ali1234> why is that wrong?
[19:58] <andylockran> dunno
[19:58] <andylockran> i expected 'prettify' to print it out indented like that example I pasted showed it
[20:00] <ali1234> and what does it print instead?
[20:01] <andylockran> loads of lines of \xe0\xa0....etc
[20:02] <andylockran> http://dpaste.com/597597/
[20:02] <andylockran> thats the tail of the output
[20:03] <ali1234> that's not unicode
[20:03] <ali1234> how do you invoke the script?
[20:07] <ali1234> i suspect your html file is gzipped or something
[20:09] <andylockran> it looks normal enough to me
[20:09] <mgdm> that's not necessarily unicode
[20:09] <mgdm> just looks like the script is outputing hex values instead of the actual chars
[20:09] <mgdm> could be fixed with a one-liner in PHP, or some such
[20:13] <mgdm> andylockran: you get PM?
[20:16] <mgdm> ali1234: it is Unicode, just UTF-16LE
[20:17] <ali1234> this is why i asked how the script was invoked
[20:18] <ali1234> the only way this can happen in python is if it totally failed to understand the encoding of the input file
[20:18] <mgdm> I think it has a broken BOM at the start of it
[20:18] <mgdm> there's certainly something iconv can't understand, then a broken MS Office header thing
[20:39] <bernhard2> cant seem to enable tls on exim4 anybody want to shed some light on my issues ?
[20:43] <popey> directhex: any regrets? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/18/hp_kills_webos_tablets_and_phones/
[20:45] <directhex> popey, a deep sadness, but it's the company's money that went on the pre3, not mine
[20:45] <popey> it's bonkers
[20:45] <directhex> i can fire up a new contract on some android bullshit whenever i like
[20:45] <popey> utter madness
[20:47] <ali1234> http://dilbert.com/fast/2011-08-16/
[21:05] <ali1234> popey: http://www.gizmag.com/popemobile-auction/19440/
[21:06] <popey> I get that a lot
[21:06] <ali1234> heh
[21:25] <Azelphur> popey: you get throttled for 40GB/day?
[21:26] <AlanBell> popey: a new version of openERP was released today as well
[21:26]  * bigcalm wishes his could understand his client's requirements
[21:26] <bigcalm> Sod it, time for some MC
[21:26]  * Azelphur did 600GB last month :D
[21:26] <Azelphur> did like 38GB in one day got no complaints
[21:27] <ali1234> you don't get a warning on VM, it's a secret cap
[21:27] <AlanBell> 28MB for the server and 1.1MB for the client
[21:27] <Azelphur> secret cap ftw
[21:27] <ali1234> throttling only lasts 1 day anyway
[21:27] <ali1234> well, that's how it worked when it was called NTL anyway
[21:28] <ali1234> i haven't used them since then
[21:28] <Azelphur> This is why I like Sky, they have no caps or throttling that I know about
[21:29] <Azelphur> and I hit it pretty heavily.
[21:31] <mgdm> popey: did I see you say that Apache had OOMed again?
[21:33] <Azelphur> I pay for 24mbit and actually get around 12mbit, I average 20GB/day and I've seen no throttling/letters/... from sky :D
[21:33] <Azelphur> so they seem to live up to their "really no FUP" advertising
[21:33] <Laney> that's a lot of linux isos
[21:33] <Azelphur> indeed, lots of Linux isos :p
[21:33] <Laney> maybe some creative commons licensed music in there too?
[21:33] <Azelphur> sure, and movies
[21:33] <ali1234> oneiric had 200mb of updates today
[21:34] <Azelphur> have you seen the yes men, it's awesome :D
[21:34] <ali1234> and 300mb the day before
[21:34] <ali1234> i don't even use it
[21:34] <ali1234> i only keep it updated so that i can test my bugs
[21:35] <ali1234> over and over and over again
[21:35] <ali1234> yes, this bug has not been fixed
[21:35] <ali1234> yes, my system is up to date
[21:44] <andylockran> ali1234: I got quite a big further with BeautifulSoup :)
[21:44] <andylockran> I've been able to parse a few tags,
[21:44] <andylockran> Thanks for your help
[21:45] <andylockran> http://paste.debian.net/126667/
[21:48] <dlssss> hi
[21:49] <dlssss> libnet-akamai-perl This package provides a perl module to interact with Akamai CCUAPI to handle multiple purge requests. ne ideas what this is
[21:49] <dlssss> on software centre
[21:49] <mgdm> You very probably don't need it
[21:50] <mgdm> Akamai are a content-delivery network - effectively a very large caching system for websites - that package lets you tell them to clear things from their cache
[21:50] <dlssss> right
[21:50] <dlssss> the thing is..
[21:51] <dlssss> when i open firefox in gnome and check firestarter log, alot of ips open up with dns of akamaitechnologies
[21:51] <mgdm> Yup
[21:51] <dlssss> is this normal
[21:51] <mgdm> lots of websites use Akamai to handle their images
[21:51] <dlssss> so even just on google search homepage its usual to have a few ips pointing to akamai
[21:52] <mgdm> You'll see a lot of "llnw.net", too - that's Limelight, who do similar things
[21:52] <mgdm> it wouldn't surprise me
[21:52] <dlssss> is saw something like  -in-f101e or something like that
[21:52] <dlssss> as dns
[21:52] <mgdm> they have thousands of machines, so they have funny names
[21:52] <dlssss> ah ok then thanks
[21:53] <dlssss> one of their dns is on a blacklist sight
[21:53] <dlssss>  so panicked
[21:53] <dlssss> i know a few things but alot i dont so thanks for help
[21:53] <mgdm> it's probably that they ended up, by accident, storing some content that was 'bad'
[21:53] <dlssss> ok ta for that then
[21:53] <mgdm> but if you block Akamai you'll block much of the Web :)
[21:54] <mgdm> No bother
[21:54] <dlssss> just interesting also to find out these hidden companies that must have alot of power on web
[21:54] <dlssss> would never have known. there you go. ta ta :)
[22:38] <sg> anybody about?
[22:39] <StevenR> yes?
[22:39] <hamitron> about what?
[22:39] <hamitron> :)
[22:39] <sg> about this channel ^^
[22:39] <sg> this isn't specifically ubuntu-related but this is the only channel i could think of that has a predominantly british userbase
[22:40] <sg> basically i'm a soon-to-be american university student, but im curious about studying computer science at durham or another uni in the UK
[22:40] <sg> i was wondering what the job prospects look like in the UK after graduation for CS majors, and how it compares to other countries like the US
[22:43] <directhex> sg: the job market isn't great right now, anywhere
[22:43] <directhex> better for tech people than non-tech people, though
[22:48] <sg> directhex: what about starting salaries and the like
[22:48] <StevenR> depends massively on the role
[22:49] <directhex> sg: depends on what you want to go into. i think good programmers get something in the mid-high 20k range, excluding london, as a reasonable starting point
[22:49] <sg> software engineer i suppose


[00:01] <bluesabre> Some relevant code can be found here, https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website
[00:02] <ochosi> sry, g2g..
[00:02] <ochosi> night everyone
[00:02] <bluesabre> ochosi: have a good night! (I have you scheduling the next meeting btw)
[00:03] <bluesabre> aaronfranke: if you want to stick around on this channel, we'd definitely appreciate the help even if you don't take up leadership :)
[00:03] <bluesabre> Just, you know, something to consider ;)
[00:04] <aaronfranke> Sure, though I don't know how much of a help I can be with a Wordpress site
[00:04] <aaronfranke> I've been reading the messages here for awhile and I'll probably stay here for awhile
[00:05] <bluesabre> We also have the dev tracker (https://dev.xubuntu.org/) which is just PHP/HTML/JS I believe, and https://wiki.xubuntu.org/ which is a dokuwiki instance
[00:05] <bluesabre> :)
[00:05] <bluesabre> But yeah, probably about time to wrap up this discussion
[00:06] <bluesabre> #topic AOB
[00:06] <bluesabre> Anything else, anybody?
[00:07] <bluesabre> Guessing not
[00:07] <bluesabre> #topic Schedule next meeting
[00:07] <bluesabre> ochosi: you can have the next one. Make it fun (and within 20.04) ;)
[00:08] <bluesabre> #action ochosi to schedule next meeting
[00:08] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to schedule next meeting
[00:08] <bluesabre> #endmeeting
[00:08] <meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Nov 16 00:08:08 2019 UTC.
[00:08] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2019/xubuntu-devel.2019-11-15-23.00.moin.txt
[00:08] <bluesabre> Thanks everybody... chatters, lurkers, and later readers!
[00:09] <Unit193> In the letter where he's stepping back, I was listed in 3 sections. :3
[00:13] <bluesabre> Unit193: we depend on you
[00:13]  * bluesabre bows
[00:14] <Unit193> bluesabre: I know you've been doing all the work lately, but I'd like to leave parole to you.  Do you have git commit rights in Salsa?
[00:14] <bluesabre> Unit193: pretty sure I do... but will check
[00:16] <bluesabre> Unit193: I have the Web IDE button, so suppose I have write perms
[00:16] <Unit193> ..Is SwissBot's chair of shame actually helpful, to anyone?
[00:17] <bluesabre> I actually have no idea what it does
[00:17] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is ochosi
[00:17] <Unit193> ↑
[00:17] <bluesabre> But I will chair every team member I see
[00:18] <Unit193> bluesabre: FWIW, if you were to fall out in the middle of the meeting, I could always op up and end it.
[01:06] <bluesabre> Good to know
[02:44] <krytarik> bluesabre: Did you get my message wrt moving the xubuntu-cdimage-css repo into the right namespace under the xubuntu-website project?  Could probably do that now since the related bug report is done.  Might as well shorten the name to just "cdimage-css" then or even just "cdimage" since it includes the favicon too now.  Also, while the header URL isn't actually exposed to the visitor to ...
[02:44] <krytarik> ... click on, it seems vorlon manually adapted it to the HTTP version of our website while it was merged with the correct HTTPS one you provided.


[00:05] <tgm4883> Saviq, are you handing the DVR type stuff?
[00:05] <tgm4883> I ask, because the next version of MythTV should have this nice service API http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Services_API
[00:06] <Saviq> tgm4883, there wasn't any real evaluation of DVRs, but myth is definitely on the table
[00:07] <tgm4883> Saviq, Other than daily use of Unity, I don't know much about it. I've been reading up on lenses and scopes for the last 30 minutes, is that basically what this will be made out of? (lenses and scopes)
[00:08] <tgm4883> ie. there will be a videos lense, which there could be a mythtv scope for
[00:09] <tgm4883> ah I see you basically answered that with a yes above
[00:09] <tgm4883> sorry just reading backlog :)(
[00:12] <Saviq> tgm4883, it really depends
[00:12] <Saviq> the most integrated approach would probably be with a mythtv scope for the video lens
[00:12] <Saviq> a bit more customized - a separate lens for mythtv
[00:13] <Saviq> and even more custom, if required - just a fullscreen app that will just paint whatever it wants
[00:13] <tgm4883> Saviq, is there plans for a DVR lens?
[00:14] <tgm4883> it just seems that "videos" doesn't encompass everything that a DVR would be expected to do
[00:17] <Saviq> tgm4883, why not?
[00:18] <tgm4883> Saviq, well to me, Video would be for video playback. If I wanted to schedule a recording I don't really think that fits
[00:18] <tgm4883> on the other hand
[00:18] <tgm4883> if I'm searching, I would want it to search though both recorded content, videos, and possibly upcoming recordings
[00:19] <tgm4883> TV guide wouldn't really fit into a video lens IMO
[00:20] <Saviq> tgm4883, that's why we have a separate EPG
[00:21] <Saviq> that's a fairly standard grid
[00:22] <tgm4883> Saviq, ah nice
[00:22] <tgm4883> so maybe videos is the proper place for it (mythTV)
[00:23] <tgm4883> Saviq, is there a target for shipping this? (eg. 12.04)
[00:29] <Saviq> tgm4883, nope
[00:30] <tgm4883> even better, cause the services API isn't going to be done until MythTV 0.25, which is going to miss the 12.04 cut off
[00:30] <tgm4883> ah, hometime
[00:30]  * tgm4883 heads out
[00:30] <Saviq> cheers
[01:01] <jimmy_dean> anybody around?
[01:05] <Saviq> jimmy_dean, it's 2am here, so not for long, but still here
[01:05] <jimmy_dean> Is there much of a community working on UbuntuTV yet?
[01:05] <jimmy_dean> I'd like to contribute
[01:06] <Saviq> did you see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Contributing ?
[01:06] <mhall119> Saviq: are you in Budapest?
[01:06] <Saviq> mhall119, yes
[01:06] <mhall119> I figured you were in Vegas
[01:06] <Saviq> mhall119, no, just mgmt went there
[01:06] <Saviq> jimmy_dean, and http://www.ubuntu.com/tv/contributors
[01:07] <jimmy_dean> Saviq, yes I saw that
[01:07] <mhall119> lucky them
[01:07] <Saviq> mhall119, not really, AFAIK
[01:07] <jimmy_dean> not that last link though
[01:07] <Saviq> manning the booth whole day
[01:07] <Saviq> jimmy_dean, best subscribe to the ubuntu-tv list
[01:07] <mhall119> doesn't sound so bad
[01:08] <mhall119> jimmy_dean: we've been discussing Ubuntu TV and playing with mockups around here for about a month
[01:08] <jimmy_dean> Saviq, just did that...ok
[01:08] <mhall119> now that there's some concept code to work on, we'll probably start hacking
[01:08]  * mhall119 needs to brush up on his C++
[01:08] <jimmy_dean> so where did the code that is being demoed at CES come from?
[01:08] <Saviq> it's a proof of concept developed at Canonical
[01:08] <mhall119> jimmy_dean: a small band of crazy hackers inside Canonical
[01:09] <jimmy_dean> ok, I have quite a bit of experience working on software like Ubuntu TV for a living
[01:09] <mhall119> I can only assume they were locked in a small room and force-fed coffee
[01:09] <jimmy_dean> lol
[01:09] <jimmy_dean> and I'd like to put it to some actual good use :)
[01:09] <mhall119> jimmy_dean: the code is up on launchpad, and instructions on the wiki for getting it going
[01:09] <Saviq> mhall119, ok, you seem to be handling it, I'm off, cheers!
[01:10] <mhall119> Saviq: g'night
[01:10] <jimmy_dean> thanks Saviq
[01:10] <jimmy_dean> night
[01:10] <jimmy_dean> mhall119, so neither you nor Saviq work for Canonical?
[01:11] <mhall119> we both do, actually
[01:11] <mhall119> Saviq I believe was one of those crazy coffee-fueled hackers that produced the demo shown at CES
[01:11] <jimmy_dean> oh ok, nice
[01:11] <mhall119> I'm a developer liason, helping people use Ubuntu technology
[01:12] <jimmy_dean> do you enjoy working for Canonical?
[01:12] <mhall119> oh yes, it's an amazing place to work, and you get to work with so many very smart and talented people
[01:13] <jimmy_dean> awesome, I'd really like to work for Canonical as well
[01:13] <jimmy_dean> it does sound quite awesome
[01:13] <mhall119> in what capacity?
[01:13] <jimmy_dean> developer
[01:13] <jimmy_dean> I currently work for a company making software that is very very similar to Ubuntu TV
[01:14] <jimmy_dean> using GStreamer
[01:14] <mhall119> http://www.canonical.com/about-canonical/careers lists the current openings, see if something there sounds right for you and send in your application
[01:14] <jimmy_dean> I've actually just applied a few days ago :)
[01:14] <jimmy_dean> haven't heard a thing back yet
[01:14] <mhall119> it can take a while
[01:14] <jimmy_dean> that's what I hear
[01:15] <mhall119> I applied to probably a dozen positions over more than a year before I got hired
[01:15] <jimmy_dean> really, so you can apply to more than one at a time?
[01:15] <mhall119> it's very competative
[01:15] <jimmy_dean> that's ok?
[01:15] <mhall119> yeah, that's fine
[01:15] <jimmy_dean> nice to know, I may apply to another one then
[01:15] <mhall119> if you get an interview, just let the person know you've applied to other positions, but it won't count against you
[01:15] <jimmy_dean> excellent
[01:16] <jimmy_dean> thanks for the tip
[01:16] <mhall119> I had 2 interviews for 2 separate positions when one of them hired me :)
[01:16] <mhall119> no problem
[01:16] <jimmy_dean> well gotta run for the evening, but I hope to be back to contribute and watch the project progress
[04:44] <L-----D> is my understanding correct that UTV is a modified version of unity 2d
[05:03] <tgm4883> L-----D, IIRC, no
[05:03] <tgm4883> I'll have to look though the backlog though for the full answer
[05:05] <L-----D> tgm4883, thanks, so it that true UTV BASED on a modofied version of unity 2d?
[05:06] <tgm4883> L-----D, Saviq	AlanBell, it's running on OpenGL	23:14
[05:06] <tgm4883> Saviq	2d is really a misnomer
[05:07] <tgm4883> that is what was said earlier, take from it what you want
[05:07] <tgm4883> I read it as it's not unity2d, but looking at it again, it's probably based on that
[05:08] <L-----D> hmmm
[07:11] <Saviq> tgm4883, yes it's based off of unity2d, only that it should never have been named 2d
[07:57] <Saviq> L-----D, yes it is based off of unity 2d, under OpenGL
[07:58] <Saviq> the "2d" part of the name does not mean it can't do 3d, it simply was designed to work on 2d
[07:58] <Saviq> initially
[07:58] <L-----D> Saviq, then is there any plan for unity3d?
[07:58] <Saviq> there is no plan for unity2d right now, either
[07:58] <Saviq> it's a concept, that's all
[07:59] <L-----D> Saviq, OK
[08:00] <L-----D> Saviq, but if I want to prepare some dev skills for UTV dev, what would I need
[08:00] <Saviq> there's no plans right now that could tell you that, sorry
[08:01] <L-----D> Saviq, and since UTV also going to run on arm platform, something like Java/JVM based app would not be a good idea?
[08:01] <Saviq> we'll let all of you guys know once we know it
[08:01] <Saviq> L-----D, when is ever a Java/JVM based app a good idea ;P
[08:01] <L-----D> Saviq, ;(
[08:02] <Saviq> L-----D, there's better options to go cross platform
[08:02] <Saviq> but yeah, rather too big of an overhead there
[08:05] <Saviq> but again - there're really no concrete plans right now
[08:06] <L-----D> Saviq, I have a media library and a media server in Java already, I want to connect/show it on UTV
[08:07] <L-----D> Saviq, what knowledge do I need to develop a Lens/Scope for Ubuntu TV?
[08:09] <Saviq> L-----D, scratch the "TV" from that sentence and read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/Lenses
[09:16] <ernstp> I'm curious about the "real" TV part of Ubuntu TV, ie DVB/DVR stuff
[09:17] <ernstp> The program guide looked very similary to MythTV
[09:17] <ernstp> Is the plan to use the mythtv backend? Or maybe Gnome DVB daemon?
[09:23] <popey> the program guide was mostly a mockup
[09:23] <popey> no decision has been made about that, but re-using existing code like mythtv makes sense
[13:16] <mhall119> L-----D: actually most ARM chips can natively execute a subset of Java bytecode
[13:45] <mhall119> Saviq: Kaleo: http://askubuntu.com/questions/94490/what-is-the-api-for-new-lens-features-in-the-ubuntu-tv-alpha/94608#94608
[13:50] <Saviq> eh
[13:51] <mhall119> Saviq: I posted a response, just wanted to make sure I was accurate
[13:51] <Saviq> yeah
[13:51] <Saviq> we didn't get nor introduce anything new to the lenses
[13:51] <Saviq> API
[13:54] <mhall119> Saviq: is there any chance we can get a blog post or something about how the demo was built, what was working and what was just for show, etc?
[13:55] <mhall119> either from you or someone else involved
[13:55] <Saviq> mhall119, might make sense, we'll definitely talk about that
[13:57] <mhall119> cool, thanks
[13:59] <mhall119> oh, an interview with pete goodall
[14:00] <L-----D> a Team Blog will better
[14:02] <popey> mhall119: where?
[14:07] <mhall119> popey: http://www.theverge.com/2012/1/10/2697982/interview-ubuntu-tv-pete-goodall
[14:07] <popey> ta
[14:12] <mhall119> \o/ about 10 minutes in he talks about all of the discussions we've had in here over the last month or two
[14:16] <nerochiaro> mhall119: in fact most of the stuff in the demo isn't lenses at all, except for the coverflow list of movies
[14:17] <nerochiaro> mhall119: the stuff mentioned in the question on askubuntu is all picking up data directly from fake data sources
[14:17] <mhall119> nerochiaro: that's what I figured, just wanted to make sure I wasn't telling them wrong
[14:17] <nerochiaro> mhall119: answer sounds good to me
[14:17] <mhall119> cool
[14:18] <mhall119> this project is making be think about building an HTPC again...
[14:19] <mhall119> popey: what email do you use for G+?
[14:19] <mhall119> I'd like to add you as a manager for the Ubuntu TV page
[14:19] <nerochiaro> mhall119: i know how you feel. i just purchased a REVO yesterday in fact ;)
[14:21] <mhall119> heh, a google search for 'REVO' gets me http://popey.com/blog/2010/01/14/ubuntu-boxee-and-get_iplayer-on-the-acer-aspire-revo/ :)
[14:21] <nerochiaro> i got the 3700 but yeah, more or less the same device
[14:22] <nerochiaro> sounded like a good replacement for my aging htpc so even if i can't run utv on it just yet it's still going to be a good replacement
[14:23] <nerochiaro> it consume less, it's quieter
[14:23] <mhall119> yes, I may need to get one of those
[14:24] <popey> mhall119: my first name dot my last name at gmail dot com
[14:24] <mhall119> nerochiaro: it would be nice if there was some 'target dev hardware' for those of us who want to play before OEMs start selling it
[14:24] <mhall119> popey: thanks
[14:24] <nerochiaro> mhall119: for the demo the revo 3700 was the target hardware
[14:25] <mhall119> popey: invited
[14:25] <popey> ta
[14:25] <mhall119> nerochiaro: will that continue to be the case?  If so, I'd like to be able to advertise it
[14:26] <nerochiaro> mhall119: i don't know. i guess a lot depends on the feedback we get at CES
[14:27] <mhall119> nerochiaro: if we can get some kind of a commitment for community devs before they shell out $300, that would be great
[14:27] <mhall119> does the revo support IR remotes like the boxee remote?
[14:28] <mhall119> or does the remote itself come with a reciever
[14:29] <nerochiaro> mhall119: i think it's too early to be recommending hardware, but it's just my personal opinion.
[14:29] <popey> the boxee remote is bluetooth isnt it?
[14:29] <popey> and the revo doesn't have bluetooth built in (mine doesn't anyway) but usb bluetooth dongles are free with breakfast cereal these days
[14:29] <Saviq> the boxee remote is RF, but not bluetooth, AFAIK
[14:30] <Saviq> or maybe it is, just that you need the dongle anyway
[14:30] <mhall119> popey: looks like it comes witha usb reciever: http://www.amazon.com/D-Link-DSM-22-Boxee-Remote/dp/B00480OSVK
[14:30] <popey> even better
[14:30] <popey> thanks for clarifying
[14:30] <mhall119> hmmm, $350 for an HTPC, not bad
[14:30] <popey> tempted to get one myself
[14:30] <mhall119> me too
[14:31] <popey> i chucked an SSD and 4GB RAM in my Revo, flies now ☺
[14:31] <mhall119> nerochiaro: can that please be discussed?  It'll be hard to build a community of contributors if we can't tell them what hardware they can use to hack on it
[14:33] <mhall119> but I think enough people would invest $350
[14:33] <nerochiaro> mhall119: certainly, but ask willcooke first, i think he's the most appropriate person to comment on that kind of commitment
[14:34] <mhall119> is he in Vegas?
[14:34] <nerochiaro> i think so
[14:34] <mhall119> ok, I'll try him later then
[14:34] <nerochiaro> (i've been on vacation for the past couple weeks, i'm still getting up to speed on who's where ;))
[14:36] <mhall119> popey: added to as admin for the facebook page too
[14:39] <popey> thanks
[14:40] <popey> Will is indeed in Vegas
[14:41]  * mhall119 wants a naughty cake
[14:41] <popey> ☺
[14:47] <MrChrisDruif> Do the naughty cakes taste good popey ?
[14:47] <popey> the yellow ones are yum
[14:49] <Saviq> mhall119, if the revo would be deemed the target device... no real need to put out any $s
[14:50] <Saviq> we developed it on our laptops, connected to the tv for verification
[14:50] <Saviq> but that's about it
[14:50] <popey> We're working on getting it built on armel
[14:50] <popey> we have a little problem with the infrastructure which we're working on.
[14:50] <Saviq> but yeah, if ^ pans out, something like a panda board would probably be best to at least test out the performance
[14:53] <mhall119> cool
[14:53] <MrChrisDruif> But panda is ARMv6 if I remember correctly?
[14:53] <mhall119> doesn't really matter what it is, as long as we have something we can point to
[14:53] <davilla> panda is armv7/neon
[14:54] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, I've been proven wrong before ^_^
[14:55] <tgm4883> I'd hope that this is something that is eventually released as an ISO that could be installed on anything
[14:56] <tgm4883> or are we just talking REVO as lowest hardware form
[14:56] <MrChrisDruif> Seems like a plan tgm4883
[14:56] <Saviq> tgm4883, "eventually" is really a huge void
[14:56] <popey> we already have an iso which has been tested internally
[14:56] <popey> but it's not something I'd put my name on :D
[14:57] <popey> I'll spin one up which is less sucky if you like
[14:57] <MrChrisDruif> Would be nice I think
[14:57] <tgm4883> either way, I have a zotac with an atom 330 and ION that I use as a MythTV frontend
[14:57] <tgm4883> which sounds similar in hardware to the revo
[14:57] <MrChrisDruif> Revo is the same hw I thought
[14:58] <tgm4883> could be, I heard it has an atom and ION, but I didn't bother looking at the specs
[14:59] <tgm4883> If I find out I'm not total crap at making lenses and scopes AND I have some extra time at work I'll try and start a mythtv scope
[15:00] <tgm4883> and with that, off to work
[15:00] <mhall119> lenses and scopes aren't difficult, join #ayatana for help on those
[15:03] <nerochiaro> especially lenses in python are quite easy to do
[15:05] <Saviq> or vala, too, AFAIK
[15:05] <AlanBell> most (maybe all) of the standard lenses are vala
[15:06] <Saviq> yup
[15:06] <AlanBell> I found it a bit complicated to work on, but that could be because I was working with existing lenses and really wanted a clean starting point
[15:06] <nerochiaro> true that, i just mention python since it's the only thing i tried to use and it was real quick
[15:06] <Saviq> I just wasn't sure of the "quite easy" aspect of vala ;)
[15:06] <Saviq> never touched it yet
[15:07] <AlanBell> vala compiles down to c which then gets compiled again
[15:07] <AlanBell> so you get error reports referencing line numbers in autogenerated c files which is a little confusing, but OK once you understand what is going on and that you shouldn't mess with the .c files
[15:07] <nerochiaro> AlanBell: and it's such a joy when it spits out some wrong C ;) (even though it's happening a lot less now that it's more mature)
[15:18] <popey> meh, someone else can spin up an iso, it's more effort than it's worth
[15:35] <mhall119> you know you guys did something right with Ubuntu TV, when by far the most frequent complaint is only that the dash background should be darker :)
[16:13] <mhall119> 498 followers on G+, so close
[16:19] <nerochiaro> mhall119: how many on fb ?
[16:20] <mhall119> don't ask :(
[16:20] <mhall119> just follow
[16:20] <mhall119> and spread the word, so I have something better to report on that front :)
[16:22] <nerochiaro> mhall119: ;)
[16:35] <tgm4883> facebook :(
[16:53] <popey> meh
[16:53] <popey> we go where the users are ☺
[16:54] <tsdgeos> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ubuntu-TV/133518260097999 ?
[16:54] <tsdgeos> https://www.facebook.com/pages/UbuntuTV/163423337003689 ?
[16:55] <tsdgeos> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ubuntu-TV/292073127507356 ?
[16:55] <tsdgeos> too many
[16:55] <tsdgeos> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ubuntu-TV/292073127507356 <--- i guess this is the good one?
[16:57] <mhall119> gah, I wish Facebook wouldn't let people make multiple pages for the same name
[16:58] <popey> well
[16:58] <popey> we can get a nice url if more people 'like' it
[16:58] <mhall119> +1
[16:58] <mhall119> I mean, 'like'
[16:59] <popey> get jono to pimp it on the ubuntu facebook page mhall119 and we'll get hundreds in an instant
[16:59] <mhall119> popey: good idea
[16:59] <popey> i am sat with him now
[17:00] <popey> right, he's gonna do it now, so we have 9 'likes' at the moment.
[17:02] <popey> haha, 86
[17:02] <popey> 96
[17:05] <mhall119> 241
[17:07] <popey> https://www.facebook.com/UbuntuTV  is now ours :D
[17:08] <mhall119> almost 400 now
[17:08] <mhall119> \o/
[17:14] <popey> Right, off out for our team dinner to celebrate :D
[17:15] <mhall119> enjoy
[17:20]  * MrChrisDruif can't watch that interview of Peter Goodall <_<"
[18:18] <tgm4883> Since hardware hasn't been worked out yet, I'd like to see something similar to what wagnerrp proposed
[18:18] <tgm4883> in case he hasn't said it in here
 put a mounting bay on the back of the tv for some standard form factor i.e. make it something you could stuff any mini-itx system in it. feed power, HDMI, network, and IR (if not provided by the HDMI) and just use it as one of the inputs on the TV. so three years down the line, you want to upgrade the capabilities with a faster system, you arent stuck with an expensive and now antiquated tv
[18:19] <tgm4883> I mean, you could certainly ship a TV with this already in it, but make it something that the user could upgrade in the future
[18:20] <MrChrisDruif> I had an idea about that in my head already
[18:20] <MrChrisDruif> But I didn't know if Ubuntu/Canonical was going into the hw market
[18:22] <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, that is the ideal situation, but if you need a common hardware platform you could create a STB similar in size to a ROKU, then have the TV have a slot in the back you could slide it into providing all of the connections.
[18:22] <tgm4883> That is how I think apple would do an actual TV, unless they really expect people to buy a $2000 TV every 2 years
[18:22] <MrChrisDruif> It was indeed more of a standards idea
[18:23] <MrChrisDruif> Having standards for TV's just like computers would be a huge boon!!
[18:23] <wagnerrp> the consequence is that you can then replace the brains without requiring you to purchase a new $2000 TV every two years
[18:23] <wagnerrp> with TV manufacturers scrambling to find new features to give users a reason to continue purchasing
[18:23] <wagnerrp> such a thing might be a hard sell
[18:23] <tgm4883> wagnerrp, true
[18:24] <tgm4883> perhaps they would be willing to produce the pluggable STB box?
[18:24] <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, would be easier to sell this idea to computer and display manufacturers
[18:24] <MrChrisDruif> settopbox box?
[18:24] <tgm4883> thats a much easier thing to swallow for the consumer, generating more smaller sales
[18:24] <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, to go with my NIC card ;)
[18:24] <MrChrisDruif> NIC=??
[18:25] <tgm4883> Network Interface Card
[18:25] <wagnerrp> network interface card card
[18:25] <MrChrisDruif> Yeah
[18:25] <wagnerrp> set top box box
[18:26] <MrChrisDruif> Or as we say in Holland "APK Keuring" which loosely translates into "Generale Periodic Check Check"
[18:26] <MrChrisDruif> APK = MOT
[18:27] <tgm4883> I'd definitly like to see both the software and hardware upgradable
[18:27] <MrChrisDruif> Indeed
[19:14] <mhall119> tgm4883: the problem is that so many of the improvements to televisions lately have been in the screens
[19:15] <mhall119> you can't turn a non-3d TV into a 3d TV without replacing the screen
[19:15] <mhall119> High Def to Ultra Def or 4k, same thing
[19:15] <mhall119> LCD to OLED
[19:15] <mhall119> etc
[19:16] <MrChrisDruif> mhall119; it all depends on HOW you'd construct it
[19:16] <wagnerrp> the average consumer isnt going for 3D no matter how much its getting pushed
[19:16] <MrChrisDruif> You'd need to see the hardware parts as separate, just like with a computer
[19:17] <mhall119> not yet, everybody bought new HDTVs right before 3d came out
[19:17] <MrChrisDruif> wagnerrp; A lot of my friends have got a 3D screen already
[19:17] <wagnerrp> 4K panels arent going to be of use until we actually get content at that resolution, and the current internet streaming options dont even come close to bluray quality
[19:18] <wagnerrp> MrChrisDruif: i dare say a lot of your friends are techies, spending a lot of money for every new gadget that comes out
[19:18] <mhall119> MrChrisDruif: what exactly would you want to replace anyway?
[19:19] <mhall119> CPU? you're not going to be doing much multi-tasking on a TV
[19:20] <MrChrisDruif> wagnerrp; you'd probably be right about that ^_^ but to counter that...they're students
[19:20] <mhall119> GPU? It's already doing full 1080p
[19:20] <mhall119> network?  Maybe, but the bottleneck if going to be the ISP, not local LAN or WLAN speeds
[19:20] <wagnerrp> mhall119: switching out a box would allow a tv to go from current h264 streaming content, to future vp8 streaming content, to whatever h264's replacement will be due in draft in the next year or so
[19:21] <mhall119> storage?  That's the only reasonable one, I think, and between cloud and NAS you don't need to touch the tv
[19:21] <wagnerrp> provide more power for future apps, or whatever you may want to do with it
[19:21] <mhall119> it's possible, but I don't currently see a market for componet upgrades to TVs
[19:22] <wagnerrp> the point is, computers have been rapidly advancing for decades, TVs really didnt start changing significantly until about 10 years ago
[19:22] <mhall119> not without replacing the screen, anyway
[19:22] <wagnerrp> at at the moment, the market seems to have largely run out of steam until something replaces bluray and ATSC with higher resolutions
[19:23] <wagnerrp> sure, there are new panel techs coming out, but tv manufacturers are advertising "smarts" more than anything else to sell stuff
[19:23] <wagnerrp> access your network content, access facebook, access twitter, etc...
[19:23] <wagnerrp> swap out the smarts with better smarts, rather than having to buy a new tv
[19:24] <imnichol> wagnerrp, are you arguing for UbuntuTV as a set-top box?  Or as a modular TV?
[19:24] <mhall119> the *only* thing I can definitely see fueling such a market would be replacing console gaming with in-TV gaming
[19:25] <wagnerrp> im saying dont stuff it into the TV, requiring a new TV should you want to upgrade its capability
[19:25] <wagnerrp> have a modular bay in the TV that you can swap out with something different
[19:25] <wagnerrp> something like the old expansion bay on the N64
[19:25] <imnichol> I don't see any manufacturers wanting to go along with that
[19:25] <mhall119> imnichol: not quite set-top, but replacable in the same way
[19:25] <wagnerrp> imnichol: yes, thats the problem with the idea
[19:26] <wagnerrp> make the smarts modular, and they lose something they could otherwise use to entice you to a new tv
[19:26] <mhall119> basically he's saying a TV that is a docking station
[19:27] <imnichol> Presumably Canonical wants to make money, and we want to see Ubuntu have as much adoption as possible; both of those require that UbuntuTV get as large a chunk of the marketshare as possible
[19:27] <mhall119> not smart on it's own
[19:27] <imnichol> And I doubt that a modular TV would be successful in that field
[19:27] <mhall119> though I bet if an OEM wanted to ship Ubuntu on such a modular TV, we won't say no ;)
[19:28] <imnichol> Correct mhall119 :)
[19:28] <wagnerrp> imnichol: something modular would be advantageous to the consumer, if the consumer understood its purpose... something integrated would be advantageous to the manufacturer, and would allow a slightly slimmer device
[19:28] <mhall119> wagnerrp: so basically it's a manufacturer's decision, if they think they can make more money on a modular TV, they'll make that
[19:28] <mhall119> but I don't think they can
[19:29] <imnichol> wagnerrp, Problem is most consumers don't care enough about that
[19:29] <imnichol> The number of people who want to upgrade their TV is tiny
[19:29] <imnichol> Me included
[19:29] <imnichol> I just want to buy at TV and not have to worry about it anymore
[19:29]  * mhall119 still has only SD TVs
[19:29] <imnichol> mhall119 is a caveman ;)
[19:29] <wagnerrp> imnichol: i would say anyone over 40 wants to upgrade their tv
[19:29] <mhall119> they're in color!
[19:30] <mhall119> imnichol: when I can buy an unlocked Ubuntu HDTV, then I'll upgrade
[19:30] <wagnerrp> someone who ran that same CRT through VCR, to DVD, possibly Bluray and got their couponed DTAs for the analog shutdown
[19:31] <wagnerrp> this whole throw away and replace with a slightly better model is something that has only existed with TVs for about 10 years
[19:31] <MrChrisDruif> mhall119; you are missing some an option here: gaming. Current hardware might quite easily play 1080p without trouble, but what about gaming?
[19:31] <mhall119> MrChrisDruif: I specifically said that gaming would do it
[19:31] <MrChrisDruif> Woops...missed that in the stream of text ^_^
[19:31] <mhall119> 19:23 < mhall119> the *only* thing I can definitely see fueling such a market would be  replacing console gaming with in-TV gaming
[19:32] <MrChrisDruif> But that's a taboo currently in Linux in general
[19:32] <mhall119> taboo?
[19:32] <mhall119> I don't think so
[19:32] <wagnerrp> gaming?
[19:33] <MrChrisDruif> Gaming in Linux, yes
[19:33] <wagnerrp> but we have tux racer! and that one where you have to isolate bouncing balls!
[19:33] <mhall119> it's not taboo, it's just scarce
[19:33] <MrChrisDruif> It's not good atm
[19:33] <mhall119> look at the humble indie bundles, those are popular among Linux users
[19:33] <MrChrisDruif> Not for serious gaming
[19:34] <MrChrisDruif> Yes, compared to the other options...it's pretty fun gaming...but have you seen some serious good game for sell like MW3 for Linux?
[19:34] <mhall119> no
[19:35] <mhall119> it's not taboo, it's a catch22
[19:35] <mhall119> no games == no gamers == no games
[19:35] <MrChrisDruif> Yup
[19:35] <wagnerrp> basically, these were just musings, coming from experience with the mythtv community
[19:35] <MrChrisDruif> The chicken and the egg problem is what it's also called
[19:35] <mhall119> yup
[19:36] <wagnerrp> right now, one of the cleanest installs you can do would be a slim Atom unit, or mac mini, or mini-itx system in an M350, velcro'd to the back of a TV
[19:36] <MrChrisDruif> VESA mounts?
[19:36] <wagnerrp> or vesa mounts, but then that prevents you from using those mounts to mount the tv, and sometimes the stand itself uses those mounts
[19:36] <MrChrisDruif> Yeah
[19:37] <wagnerrp> this would have just been a continuation of that concept, but having it "dock" so you could get rid of the cables, or use very short patch cables
[19:37] <MrChrisDruif> So like I said, integrated would be nice. But in such a way that only the screen needs replacing...or just parts of the hardware
[19:38] <wagnerrp> but you still retain control over the smarts that run the TV, rather than having it be something you may need to "jailbreak" or risk irreparably damaging
[19:39] <wagnerrp> do you turn your TV into a PC, or do you add PC-like capabilities to your TV
[19:39] <MrChrisDruif> I think the first
[19:39] <wagnerrp> it all comes down to who is actually in control of it
[19:41] <MrChrisDruif> We need standards for that
[20:03] <tgm4883> mhall119, further, There aren't many TV's that you can buy anymore that aren't 3D
[20:05] <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; enough in my country
[20:05] <tgm4883> I think if the TV was a 1080p screen that supported 3D, that you would be set for quite some time, providing you could upgrade the processing unit
[20:07] <tgm4883> the low end units aren't going to have that built in dock anyway
[21:33] <maxolasersquad> q
[21:35] <MrChrisDruif> Yes?
[21:40] <mcbaine1> elo ??
[21:51] <mhall119> hi


[14:31] <anilg> hi.. how do I show << in xml format
[14:31] <anilg> xsltproc fails (probably because it parses << as n opening of a tag)
[14:49] <Gwaihir> << doesn't work?
[15:00] <anilg> that worked :)
[15:00]  * anilg had tried \<\<