[15:35]  * popey hugs didrocks
[15:35]  * didrocks hugs popey back
[15:36] <Aeefire> greetings
[15:39] <vrnithin> hi
[15:55] <newbe5> I'm here for the Meat
[16:00] <achiang> hello everyone, let's get started with the weekly Nexus 7 meeting
[16:00] <achiang> #startmeeting
[16:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 30 16:00:28 2012 UTC.  The chair is achiang. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:00] <achiang> today, we have a light agenda
[16:00] <achiang> 1) brief status update
[16:00] <achiang> 2) discussion about memory leaks
[16:01] <achiang> 3) q&a
[16:01] <achiang> #topic Status Update
[16:01] <achiang> oops, i don't know if that's what i wanted
[16:01] <achiang> #meetingtopic status update
[16:02] <achiang> oh well
[16:02] <mfisch> can't help you with meetingbot :(
[16:02] <achiang> anyway, i am sure that people have been eagerly awaiting the announcement for switching to raring
[16:02] <achiang> i am sorry to disappoint, but we have to wait just a little while longer
[16:03] <achiang> the last thing we are waiting for is a fix for nux, which is the opengl toolkit that unity is built on top of
[16:03] <achiang> the good news is, nux has been fixed
[16:03] <dholbach> good to see that many people are joining in
[16:03] <ogra_> well, you can play with the images by tapping blindly :)
[16:03] <mfisch> when will it be ready?
[16:03] <dholbach> achiang, I talked to didrocks and he said it will land early next week
[16:03] <ogra_> only nux is missing
[16:03] <achiang> the bad news is, a proper package has not been built and uploaded into raring
[16:03] <dholbach> the problem is that the test-suite or the test-suite runner needs a fix
[16:03] <achiang> nod
[16:03] <dholbach> he said early next week, at worst mid next week
[16:03] <achiang> so we hope to have an announcement by the end of next week
[16:03] <dholbach> (https://code.launchpad.net/~unity-team/nux/nux.depth-texture-detection-support/+merge/134729 for reference)
[16:04] <achiang> exciting times!
[16:04] <didrocks> also unity is failing to build on armhf for now
[16:04] <achiang> ogra_: any other status updates for us you'd like to give?
[16:04] <dholbach> another piece of feedback I have is that onboard will be reuploaded to the ppa (or the archive) because it's currently uninstallable
[16:04] <didrocks> which isn't useful for the nexus7 :)
[16:04] <ogra_> plymouth kind of works :)
[16:04] <didrocks> so yeah, those are tracked and under fix
[16:04] <dholbach> I assume that a simple rebuild (maybe of virtkey too) will do it
[16:04] <ogra_> the installer (oem-config) works fine thanks to xnox for making compiz work in there (that fixed a wallpaper corruption bug for us)
[16:05] <dholbach> would be better to get onboard/virtkey into raring archive, so we can get rid of the ppa for good
[16:05] <achiang> +1
[16:05] <ogra_> and currently i'm looking into making the initrd smaller so we can drop some hacks
[16:05] <dholbach> apart from that my dist-upgrade to raring went fine ;-)
[16:05] <achiang> ogra_: how about the daily images? what is the url?
[16:05] <ogra_> (or the kernel, either of tehm has to shrink)
[16:05] <ogra_> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/
[16:06] <achiang> [link] http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/
[16:06] <achiang> #link http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/
[16:06] <ogra_> one issue we still need to solve is the size, the current image is only suitable for 6G
[16:06] <achiang> hm, guess who doesn't know how to use meetingbot! :)
[16:07] <achiang> ok, any other status people want to share?
[16:07] <ogra_> i worked a bit with infinity on that part already but that will need further work (we will most likely switch from tar,gz to tar,xz internally)
[16:07] <ogra_> s/\,/\./
[16:07] <achiang> cool
[16:07] <achiang> ogra_: anything else?
[16:08] <ogra_> i think thats about it atm ... oh, i uploaded fixes for most of the bugs that were fixable by changing gsettings
[16:08] <achiang> ogra_: great, i hope you ran those changes past the desktop team. :)
[16:08] <kyleN_> ogra does that include the gksudo one?
[16:08] <ogra_> achiang, defaults-seetings :)
[16:08] <ogra_> kyleN_, nope, gksudo will be unseeded
[16:09] <kyleN_> ogra is their an alternate approach?
[16:09] <kyleN_> there
[16:09] <ogra_> it is supposed to go away since over a year now ... time to actually make that happen ;)
[16:09] <ogra_> pkexec, we use it everywheer already
[16:09] <kyleN_> ack
[16:10] <bootidsa> o/
[16:10] <achiang> bootidsa: go
[16:10] <bootidsa> Quick question .. does anyone know Where one can buy a Nexus 7 with Ubuntu ?
[16:10] <achiang> this is not a product that comes pre-installed
[16:10] <ogra_> you cant, you can only buy a nexus and install ubuntu yourself
[16:10] <dholbach> bootidsa, but installing it is very easy - just refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/Installation
[16:10] <bootidsa> not on Auction sites ?
[16:10] <kyleN_> it is a developer oriented build for now
[16:10] <bootidsa> oh OK
[16:11] <dholbach> it's VERY easy
[16:11] <achiang> maybe bootidsa has discovered a business plan for us?
[16:11] <dholbach> $$$
[16:11] <ogra_> achiang, oh, one thing that struck me additionally to the tegra drivers ... raring just switched to gstreamer 1.0
[16:11] <gatox> i have Ubuntu installed in my Nexus7... i would like to contribute to the development..... is this possible?
[16:11] <kyleN_> there's an installer script that, as dholbach said, makes installing it very easy
[16:11] <mfisch> gatox: sure, we'
[16:11] <achiang> gatox: let's take that question at the end please
[16:11] <kyleN_> gatox YES
[16:11] <mfisch> gatox: sure we'd love to have help
[16:11] <ogra_> achiang, that means the nvidia codecs and gstreamer bits will need to be ported by them
[16:11] <dholbach> gatox, that'd be awesome
[16:11] <gatox> achiang, ack
[16:12] <achiang> ok, i think the status section of the meeting is wrapping up
[16:12] <achiang> 5 more seconds for someone to give status...
[16:12] <ogra_> gatox, just hang around in #ubuntu-arm ... we're all there ;)
[16:12] <achiang> ok, great
[16:12] <achiang> let's move on
[16:12] <gatox> ogra-cb_, awesome..... thx!
[16:12] <achiang> the big topic for today is memory leaks
[16:13] <achiang> we think this would be a great place for the community to get involved...
[16:13] <achiang> and with that
[16:13] <achiang> i will hand it over to kyleN_
[16:13] <achiang> kyleN_: if you could do a quick intro of yourself
[16:13] <kyleN_> thx achiang
[16:13] <bootidsa> clang ?
[16:13] <achiang> and then go for it!
[16:13] <kyleN_> I worked with achiang and for canonical.
[16:13] <achiang> present tense... kyleN_ still works with me and still works for canonical :)
[16:13] <kyleN_> i think this is an exciting project with the potentia to improve Ubuntu generaly
[16:14] <kyleN_> right ;)
[16:14] <kyleN_> so, I'll give an overview of our current thinking about memory leaks
[16:14] <kyleN_> Valgrind finds memory leaks for a giving executable and its calls.
[16:15] <kyleN_> Memory leaks should be eliminated (they are especially nasty on memory constrained devices).
[16:15] <mfisch> Valgrind works for C/C++ code only?
[16:15] <kyleN_> Valgrind does a better job of producing helpful output when C debug symbols are present.
[16:15] <kyleN_> mfisch, yes, I think so. achiang?
[16:15] <achiang> good question, i don't know but will go find out
[16:16] <achiang> will circle back, continue on kyleN_ !
[16:16] <kyleN_> By default debug symbols are not installed to conserve disk. Debug symbols are available in other -dbg pkgs.
[16:16] <kyleN_> So we are automating the task of getting all the debug pkgs for the executable and its dependencies.
[16:16] <feasty>  Static analysis tools can help
[16:16] <kyleN_> They are unpacked into a directory, not installed as debian pkgs.
[16:17] <kyleN_> And they can be easily deleted after use.
[16:17] <kyleN_> We run valgrind and pass it that directory to also look in when resolving symbols.
[16:18] <kyleN_> The result is that there are far fewer unknown symbols in the valgrind log.
[16:18] <achiang> "Valgrind works with programs written in any language. Because Valgrind works directly with program binaries, it works with programs written in any programming language, be they compiled, just-in-time compiled, or interpreted."
[16:18] <kyleN_> (Unknown symbols look like this: "???")
[16:18] <kyleN_> ^ nice
[16:18] <kyleN_> This all means we can look at the stack traces and see where the memory leaks actually occured.
[16:19] <kyleN_> That is, which actual function call is probably responsible.
[16:19] <kyleN_> We can theoretically find an report only unique memory leaks (not previously reported).
[16:19] <bootidsa> :) I've just bought a Nexus 7 on an Auction site & I'm putting Ubuntu on there and I'm gonna resell it just to fill the void of demand .. What price should I set as reserve ?
[16:20] <kyleN_> And in this way, we can improve the Ubuntu stack for memory constrained devices and in general!
[16:20] <kyleN_> I think this will be a great way for the community to get involved (among many other ways!)
[16:21] <kyleN_> One more related topic: valgrind suppr files. These inform valgrind of false-positive memory leaks. That is, leaks that look like leaks but that are not leaks.
[16:21] <feasty> What about running something like Sonar across code?
[16:21] <kyleN_> feasty, pls hold on just a moment :)
[16:21] <kyleN_> These suppr files remove noise from the valgrind logs.
[16:22] <kyleN_> We will want to improve these suppr files, and maybe auto install them when running this valgrind driver stuff referred to above.
[16:22] <kyleN_> OK, that's the overview of our current thinking of improving tooling to find unique memory leaks.
[16:23] <kyleN_> one last point
[16:23] <kyleN_> achiang, blogged about vagrind, memory leaks, and related a couple days back. very useful blog.
[16:23] <kyleN_> achiang, do you have the URL?
[16:23] <mfisch> I'll get it
[16:23] <achiang> http://www.chizang.net/alex/blog/2012/11/23/memory-leaks-in-ubuntu-episode-i-detection/
[16:24] <achiang> http://www.chizang.net/alex/blog/2012/11/28/memory-leaks-in-ubuntu-episode-ii-analysis/
[16:24] <dholbach> achiang, thanks a lot for putting this together
[16:24] <achiang> there are a few more episodes to come
[16:24] <achiang> i will make a statement about episode I
[16:25] <achiang> in there, i linked to a crappy script that i wrote to help track down debug symbols and remove the ??? that kyleN_ was talking about earlier
[16:25] <achiang> the good news is, kyleN_ is working on a much nicer tool to do all this for you
[16:25] <kyleN_> so feasty, would you like to say something about the approach and usefulness of sonar?
[16:25] <achiang> kyleN_: one sec
[16:25] <kyleN_> k
[16:25] <achiang> we are not ready to share this tool yet, but we can give a little preview
[16:25] <achiang> it consists of 2 parts
[16:26] <achiang> 1) an updated valgrind, that can look in any directory for debug symbols
[16:26] <achiang> (i wrote a patch for that and it is being discussed upstream now)
[16:26] <achiang> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=310792
[16:26] <feasty> I was just saying that static analysis tools might help us track down memory leaks. I use a commercial one at work called Coverity but it utilises Sonar I believe as part of it's analysis.
[16:27] <achiang> 2) an updated apport, which is what kyleN_ is working on. we're writing an awesome wrapper script around valgrind
[16:27] <achiang> and in the end, you will be able to just say:
[16:27] <achiang> apport-valgrind <my binary>
[16:27] <feasty> It supports a range of languages too
[16:28] <achiang> and the tool will grab all the debug symbols magically, unpack them somewhere so you don't pollute your system, profile your application, and produce a log
[16:28] <achiang> as you might imagine, this will be great once it's done
[16:28] <achiang> so we'll share that *hopefully* next week, but stay tuned...
[16:28] <achiang> alrighty, back to kyleN_
[16:28] <kyleN_> ok
[16:29] <kyleN_> thanks feasty for noting that.
[16:29] <feasty> np
[16:29] <kyleN_> my overview is complete, so I am handing this back :)
[16:30] <kyleN_> athought perhaps one more point
[16:30] <kyleN_> we very much plan to empower the community to help out
[16:30] <bootidsa> agreed,   ...
[16:30] <kyleN_> by 1) providing a simple method of finding (unique) memory leaks
[16:31] <kyleN_> 2) establishing some infrastructure for reporting them that is easy to use and allows developers to actually fix them
[16:31] <achiang> feasty: static analysis tools are good. however, we are trying to write some tools that people with a broad range of technical background can help out with. static analysis tools are really aimed at developers.
[16:31] <kyleN_> this will, as I mentioned, be great for memory constrained devices like Nexus 7.
[16:32] <achiang> what kyleN_ is talking about is a simple tool that non-developers can use, which will collect data that will still be useful for developers
[16:32] <kyleN_> but importantly, it will help improve the entire Ubuntu stack going forward, so this is impoartnat
[16:32] <kyleN_> with that, I am done :)
[16:32] <achiang> alrighty, that segues nicely into q&a
[16:33] <achiang> happy to answer any questions, either related to memory leaks specifically or nexus7 in general
[16:33] <bootidsa> :) I've just bought a Nexus 7 on an Auction site & I'm putting Ubuntu on there and I'm gonna resell it just to fill the void of demand .. What price should I set as reserve ?
[16:33] <achiang> floor is open
[16:33] <feasty> achiang Ah ok, sorry just through we were hunting leaks :).
[16:33] <achiang> bootidsa: i was making a joke earlier about that, i don't think that's an appropriate topic for us to cover here
[16:33] <bootidsa> oh OK. thanx.
[16:33] <dholbach> What apart from the nux fix and the onboard update are still blockers for raring? Also: will we recommend to dist-upgrade or reflash?
[16:34] <ogra_> re-flash
[16:34] <ogra_> people *can* upgrade if they really want to
[16:34] <dholbach> dist-upgrade (not update-manager, mentioned it to mvo already) "worked" for me earlier and folks wouldn't need to wait for updated images or an updated nexus7-installer
[16:35] <achiang> feasty: something like sonar might be interesting for upstream developers, but not the broader community. 2 different use cases. i agree sonar looks interesting but we're trying to cover the 2nd case here :)
[16:35] <ogra_> but fir the sake of not having eyeryone running around with ubuntu/ubuntu credendials we should recommend a re-flash
[16:35] <dholbach> ogra_, ah, makes sense :)
[16:35] <achiang> +1 to re-flash, we're getting that tooling all in place now
[16:35] <dholbach> sweet
[16:35] <achiang> other than nux and onboard, i do not believe there are any blockers
[16:36] <dholbach> that's good news
[16:36] <feasty> achiang, That's fair enough. I just missed that part :)
[16:36]  * ogra_ uses the raring daily all the time here
[16:36] <achiang> feasty: np :)
[16:36] <ogra_> no blockers if you know how to click blindly ;)
[16:36] <achiang> ogra_ forgets that not everyone is a superman like him, so for us normal people, i recommend to just wait a few more days! :)
[16:37] <dholbach> yeah, there'll be announcements :)
[16:37] <kyleN_> achiang, where will he announcement occcur?
[16:37] <kyleN_> or dholbach ?
[16:37] <ogra_> haha, come on, firefox is the third icon from the top and ctrl-alt-t works from onboard to get a terminal :)
[16:37] <ogra_> what else do you need :)
[16:37] <dholbach> kyleN_, I'd say ubuntu-devel@, blogs and the @ubuntudev social media accounts at least
[16:37] <dholbach> maybe rather ubuntu-devel-announce@
[16:37] <achiang> yup, dholbach has a big megaphone and i'm sure will find a way to make everyone aware
[16:37] <ogra_> and blogs, lots of them :)
[16:38] <dholbach> I can't wait!
[16:38] <achiang> if people reading episode II on my blog find it hard to read or there are questions, i would love to clarify any confusing bits
[16:38] <achiang> so feedback is welcome
[16:39] <dholbach> I'd be interested to hear who's interested in helping with testing or memleak-analysis or anything else? Can we have a show of hands?
[16:39] <achiang> \o/
[16:39] <kyleN_> o/
[16:39] <dholbach> *\o/*
[16:39] <kyleN_> May I say that while detecting memory leaks may seem boring, it is actualy VERY important to the future
[16:40] <achiang> i think it's fun, i like doing detective work like this and yelling at my computer
[16:40] <feasty> I'd be ineterested in memory leak hunting/fixing
[16:40] <dholbach> sweet
[16:40] <ogra_> so if you plan on children be sure to help us !
[16:40] <ogra_> (or did i get that future thing wrong ?)
[16:42] <kyleN_> ogra: we will use harsh words about your children if you don't help us :)
[16:42] <ogra_> haha
[16:42] <achiang> there you have it... we need to save the rain forests, save the glaciers, and find memory leaks!
[16:42] <feasty> Are there any particular packages we should concentrate on?
[16:42] <ogra_> tehoretically everything thats preinstalled
[16:42] <achiang> feasty: i would say if there is an app you use every day or an app that's giving you problems... those are the 2 best places to start
[16:43] <feasty> Ok cool
[16:43] <achiang> however, i would *not* recommend trying to profile firefox or chrome / chromium
[16:43] <achiang> those programs are extremely complex, and the upstreams already actively profile
[16:43] <achiang> so the best place to help is the more neglected applications
[16:43] <ogra_> not on arm linux usually though
[16:44] <achiang> i think hunting down memory leaks in firefox or chromium might take advanced skills, e.g., you can't just run valgrind on firefox in a simple manner
[16:44] <achiang> it is possible, but tricky
[16:44] <ogra_> (chrome probably does for chromeos, not sure. but usually arm linux is a second class citizen upstream)
[16:45] <kyleN_> we done, dholbach?
[16:45] <achiang> any other questions for q&a?
[16:45] <bootidsa> What is the best PDF reader to use on this platform to skim through manuals .. for example ?
[16:45] <dholbach> kyleN_, think so
[16:45] <ogra_> i dont thik there is any touch friendly one in the archive atm
[16:46] <ogra_> so the preinstalled (evince) will be as good as any
[16:46] <bootidsa> I've had soo many problems with evince .. I just subscribed to the mailing list in the end .
[16:46] <achiang> alrighty
[16:47] <ogra_> (i might be wrong, probably evince even does touch already, havent tried it)
[16:47] <rrnwexec> Q: Are there any plans to include an email client? (Some) research shows that checking email is the #1 use case for tablets.
[16:47] <kyleN_> (isn't there a pkg that converts touch events to mouse events for non-touch friendy apps?)
[16:47] <bootidsa> I think this is *key* to the platform , but what would I know ... I'm just a n00b.
[16:48] <rrnwexec> Citation: http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/research.google.com/es//pubs/archive/38135.pdf
[16:48] <achiang> ogra_: the raring image will have thunderbird, right?
[16:48] <ogra_> rrnwexec, once we have fixed some image size issues re-including thunderbird and openoffice shuld be possible
[16:48] <ogra_> achiang, currently it doesnt
[16:48] <ogra_> but i plan to brin it back once we switched to xz
[16:48] <ogra_> *bring
[16:48] <achiang> rrnwexec: ok, so the answer is, "we intend to, but need to work out some engineering issues"
[16:49] <rrnwexec> great. thank you.
[16:49] <ogra_> Tb isnt particulary touch friendly either though
[16:49] <ogra_> i bet with gmail and the grab n drag extension in firefoxx you are better off
[16:49] <achiang> perhaps webapps?
[16:49] <rrnwexec> Interstingly, tablets are rarely used for "office productivity" apps.
[16:49] <achiang> a great 12.10 feature
[16:50] <achiang> ok, any more questions?
[16:50] <Aeefire> yes
[16:50] <bootidsa> Can the tablet use a stylus ?
[16:51] <achiang> bootidsa: yes, a stylus can be used. i watched someone in Copenhagen use a stylus on the nexus7
[16:51] <ogra_> yes, but the capacitive sytluses you can buy arent usually smaller than your pinky
[16:51] <rrnwexec> I'm using a stylus. I find it much more usable.
[16:51] <Aeefire> I'd like to ask something more general (hopefully it hasn't been covered already): Have I understood it right, that ubuntu on N7 is just a "proof of concept" and you MAY broaden support to other devices?
[16:51] <rrnwexec> it's smaller than my pinky too ;)
[16:51] <achiang> i'll take that one
[16:51] <ogra_> fat pinky he ?
[16:51] <ogra_> :)
[16:51] <achiang> Ubuntu on the N7 is intended to serve as a reference / developer platform
[16:52] <achiang> we want to get a cheap, easy-to-use ARM device into the hands of more people
[16:52] <achiang> older solutions like panda boards were still not super user friendly
[16:52] <bootidsa> has anyone updated the 'road-map' on launchpad ?
[16:52] <ogra_> it could happen that we switch to another platform at some point ... i wouldnt actually call that broadening though
[16:52] <Aeefire> mhm
[16:52] <achiang> the goal is for everyone to use the same hardware
[16:53] <achiang> to make fixing bugs easier
[16:53] <achiang> fixing bugs is a LOT easier when you do not have to ask in launchpad: what hardware do you have? i can't reproduce it here
[16:53] <ogra_> it is very likely that we move on with that concept in later releases, for now the nexus7 is the focus though
[16:53] <rrnwexec> +1 for uniform hardware
[16:53] <Aeefire> i understand that.
[16:53] <achiang> if everyone has the same hardware, then that removes one more piece of friction between testers and developers
[16:53] <Aeefire> fine!
[16:54] <ogra_> the point is though ...
[16:54] <achiang> since we have standardized on the N7, it's unlikely that we'll move to a new platform any time soon
[16:54] <ogra_> the nexus brings us support for android devices in a certain setup in general
[16:54] <achiang> it was hard enough to get to here in the first place :)
[16:54] <ogra_> which means if someone wants to roll images for a device thats similar structured it shouldnt be hard to produce one
[16:55] <ogra_> i.e. if you feel like maintaining a nexus10 kernel and roll images as part of the community, you are invited to learn how and do so ;)
[16:55] <Aeefire> ya, but as you publish all your progress (?) other (interested and skillfull) people might port your builds to different devices/hardware and work on that in parallel
[16:55] <ogra_> we surely wont block people that do the "breoadening" work
[16:56] <ogra_> right
[16:56] <bootidsa> Sorry, On launchpad, by 'road-map' I meant 'milestones' .. update-able ??
[16:56] <achiang> yes, if you want to build on the progress, i suggest hanging out in #ubuntu-arm and asking questions. it's a friendly place :)
[16:56]  * ogra_ regulary tries to update his tasks
[16:56] <dholbach> you should be able to just use the normal upgrade functionality within Ubuntu once we're on raring
[16:57] <achiang> bootidsa: i don't believe we use milestones in launchpad for this project
[16:57] <Aeefire> hehe right, but currently i just own an Asus EEE Pad Transformer Prime TF201, so that will probably exclude me from testing mostly, as i don't have the skills to port the builds myself ;)
[16:57] <achiang> ok, we have 3 minutes left
[16:57] <bootidsa> achiang, Wny not , how do I know where we are going/up to ?
[16:57] <achiang> any other questions?
[16:57] <Aeefire> and as poor student, a nexus 7 or 10 won't be incoming soon :) thanks for the answer!
[16:58] <ogra_> bootidsa, http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/ have a look there
[16:58] <dholbach> bootidsa, and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7 is an additional TODO list, if that helps
[16:58] <ogra_> ( i dont thik there is a particular nexus76 centric filter though)
[16:58] <ogra_> -6
[16:59] <achiang> ok, i think it's time to wrap up
[16:59] <dholbach> thanks a lot everyone! this was great
[16:59] <achiang> thanks to kyleN__ for the valgrind discussion
[16:59] <kyleN__> yw
[16:59] <achiang> hopefully next week we'll have even more goodies for everyone
[16:59] <ogra_> ++
[16:59] <achiang> thanks all
[16:59] <achiang> #endmeeting
[16:59] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 30 16:59:46 2012 UTC.
[16:59] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-16.00.moin.txt
[16:59] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-16.00.html
[16:59] <rrnwexec> thanks achiang and team for everything so far.
[17:00] <dholbach> (we can continue in #ubuntu-arm)
[17:00] <achiang> emphasis on team. i'm just the paper pusher. :)
[17:00] <ogra_> yeah
[17:00] <bootidsa> thank-you everyone .. I get a nexus 7 with Ubuntu on ebay (WWide Make offer) next week .. dio a saved search and you'll get an email of it.
[17:01] <bootidsa> **I'll
[17:28] <bootidsa> Checking in for Ubuntu TVV meeting in half an hour ... Hi guys o/
[17:28] <bobweaver> what up bootidsa
[17:30] <CrestedNewt> hiya - looks like a full house. It's Tim S Joseph
[17:31] <bobweaver> Hey CrestedNewt  nice to see that you are going to make it thansk
[17:31] <bobweaver> thanks *
[17:32] <bootidsa> Wow ... looks exciting .. just finished my dinner (I'm in Iom ) .. joined Ubuntu Tv start of year.
[17:33] <bootidsa> Well I guess we can have a little banter before the meeting ?
[17:33] <bobweaver> sure
[17:34] <bootidsa> OK .. So my main gripe is that I dont have Ubuntu TV stuck to my wall .. where can I get one ?
[17:34] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  lol you have to make one :)
[17:35] <bootidsa> .. OK .. is there a blog for that ?
[17:35] <CrestedNewt> lol -  Joseph is working on it!! I can build you the hardware if you want
[17:36] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  depends on what you would like to use . like unity 2d (old mock up code) or the Unity 3d one (not finshed and you will hear more about that soon )
[17:36] <bootidsa> CrestedNewt, I'd like to know that (in terms how much you need ) .
[17:36] <bootidsa> Unity 2d is fine for me.
[17:37] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  we can talk about that if you like butI must warn you that it was MOCK UP code
[17:38] <CrestedNewt> bootidsa As far as I am aware, if it has a processor, graphics card and tuner, it will work
[17:38] <bobweaver> as far as hardware it will run on anything thtat will run unity 2d
[17:38] <bobweaver> and CrestedNewt  is correct tuner card is what gets you live tv and dvr
[17:39] <bootidsa> CrestedNewt, It would be nice for me to-do a list on Am$zon  of what is required to get a compltered Flat screen from parts :)
[17:39] <bootidsa> **completed.
[17:39] <CrestedNewt> bobweaver - quick question... is there the possibility of dual input, eg tuner and satellite inputs on same epg?
[17:40] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  how I have mine (2d) is it is computer hooked up to tv (main backend) then I have other small box's that are on other tv that listen to loacl network
[17:41] <bootidsa> oh sio its not actually in the flat screen itself .. its an add-on box , right ?
[17:41] <bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  yes there is depends on the capture card I have 2 inputs on mine also captures vcr dvd player ect but I only use for tv atm
[17:41] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  coorect it is just a different "form-factor " of unity
[17:41] <CrestedNewt> bobweaver - thx
[17:42] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  but one could v.easy make for flat screen
[17:42] <bobweaver> say if it can load usb or if it can load from sd
[17:42] <bobweaver> or if you have Ubuntu phone
[17:43] <bootidsa> bobweaver, It's interesting , but terms of the remote-jockeys I thought it ran inside the TV on arm .. why not that  (sorry if I'm going off abit) ?
[17:43] <CrestedNewt> bootidsa - 2 options as I see it... 1. Built into screen by manufacturer so warrant is intact
[17:43] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  I have installed to arm boards and works fine also
[17:43] <CrestedNewt> bootidsa - 2. separate box
[17:43] <bootidsa> right so it is possible then. thanx.
[17:44] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  takes a minute and a half to compile though
[17:44] <IdleOne> Someone please save me. I am stuck on imgur :/
[17:44] <bobweaver> ok IdleOne
[17:44] <bootidsa> What are the minimum spec's for the platorm to be used internaly on say, Arm TV-wise ?
[17:44] <bobweaver> 1 gig ram and 1.0 ghz
[17:45] <bobweaver> 9 gigs harddrive
[17:45] <bobweaver> unity 2d ^^
[17:45] <bobweaver> 3d is whole new story
[17:45] <bootidsa> IdleOne, Try this one http://ompldr.org/about.html
[17:46] <bootidsa> IdleOne, extension  dont work though !
[17:46] <bobweaver> Imagebin also works well
[17:46] <bobweaver> for temp stuff that is
[17:47] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  we had a pi hack day at local hackerspace and where able to get it to run on pi but and this is a big but it was super super slow and froze all the time.
[17:47] <CrestedNewt> at the last meeting, tgm4883 was saying that the future is 3D, not 2D, and that is where the effort should be directed
[17:48] <bootidsa> bobweaver, Looks like atom would serve this bettr .. http://goo.gl/ofaUv
[17:48] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  pandaboard ?
[17:49] <bootidsa> bobweaver, no frame of reference to pandaboard.
[17:49] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  not enough ram on that board
[17:49] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard
[17:50] <bobweaver> also http://www.pandaboard.org/
[17:50] <bobweaver> I got 3d to run on that
[17:50] <bobweaver> friends board
[17:51] <bootidsa> bobweaver, Yeah , figures .. that's what I'm saying .. everything is so micro these days .. that's why I presumed it could be done 'inside' the Flat screen TV itself.
[17:52] <bobweaver> yeah Would be cool to have a case but the thing about all that is capture card must be usb and are not as fast as pci ones
[17:52] <bobweaver> making lag on TV happen for other fronends
[17:53] <CrestedNewt> bootisda - I have been talking with someone about this and the problem is a matter of warranty...
[17:53] <CrestedNewt> bootidsa only if the card and OS were supported by the manufacturer could it be INSIDE the TV
[17:54] <bootidsa> right .. Are we at trhe stage where we can do S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio ??
[17:54] <bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  that is a good point warranty gpl says no to that right ?
[17:55] <CrestedNewt> bobweaver - it is the manufacturers warranty. eg I have a 5 year warranty on my plasma - if I change the internals I invalidate the warranty
[17:55] <bootidsa> I dont thin we need to talk about warranty .. In the finalanalysis ..I just want one of these, hacked or whatever.
[17:55] <bootidsa> **think
[17:56] <tgm4883> bobweaver, could be ethernet
[17:57] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - yes
[17:57] <bootidsa> hi popey, o/
[17:57] <tgm4883> one of the most popular tuners out there is ethernet (in the US anyway)
[17:57] <YoBoY> hi
[17:57] <bobweaver> Oo
[17:58] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  could you find me some docs on that in the next week or so pretty please ?
[17:58] <CrestedNewt> YoBoY - hiya
[17:58] <tgm4883> bobweaver, docs on what?
[17:58] <tgm4883> on what is popular?
[17:58] <bobweaver> ethernet capture cards
[17:58] <tgm4883> 29% of the market uses the HDHOMERUN
[17:59] <bootidsa> Countdown to Ubyuntu TV meeting  @ 6pm ... I'll not join in much because I just want the finished product .. I'm not a developwer, sorry. Good luck guys !!
[17:59] <tgm4883> 54% use DVB, but that could be USB/PCI/etc
[17:59] <CrestedNewt> bootidsa - I'm not a developer either but we can all help one way or the other
[17:59]  * bobweaver needs more money to test more hardware
[18:00] <CrestedNewt> lol
[18:00] <bobweaver> brb door bell
[18:00] <bootidsa> My only question is about S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio , possible ?
[18:00] <CrestedNewt> bootidsa - why not use HDMI as it has the same throughput?
[18:01] <bootidsa> It's just hardware critical side of things.
[18:01] <tgm4883> bootidsa, why wouldn't it be possible?
[18:01] <bootidsa> just checking...
[18:02] <tgm4883> bootidsa, isn't it possible now?
[18:02] <bootidsa> OK so who's doing the meeting then >?#
[18:02] <tgm4883> I think bobweaver is running it
[18:02] <bobweaver> back and no I did not want to by new windows from the guy that just knocked on door
[18:02] <bobweaver> !startmeeting
[18:02] <CrestedNewt> I'm in seeing that it is 18:00 - over to you bobweaver
[18:02] <bobweaver> what is syntax to start bot ?
[18:02] <tgm4883> bobweaver, is there a link to the agenda?
[18:02] <tgm4883> @startmeeting
[18:02] <meetingology> tgm4883: Error: "startmeeting" is not a valid command.
[18:03] <tgm4883> well it's not that ;)
[18:03] <bobweaver> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Meetings
[18:03] <IdleOne> #
[18:03] <bobweaver> #startmeeting
[18:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 30 18:03:22 2012 UTC.  The chair is bobweaver. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[18:03] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[18:03] <bootidsa> Bettr give website for reference .. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntutv , i'll shutup now...
[18:03] <bobweaver> IdleOne,  plz help me with bot ! lol
[18:04] <bobweaver> Agenda Documentation: The wiki is kinda old and refers to unity 2d a whole lot
[18:04] <bobweaver> so I got a email asking me "how to help with docs "
[18:04] <jhodapp> hello all :)
[18:04] <bobweaver> I noticed alot of things
[18:04] <bobweaver> all the Unity 2d stuff needs to come down
[18:04] <bobweaver> agree ?
[18:04] <tgm4883> yea
[18:04] <tgm4883> I see no point in having it up there
[18:05] <bobweaver> like the getting involed pages
[18:05] <bobweaver> any nahs on this ?
[18:05] <tgm4883> the getting involved pages should point out how to contact us to help
[18:05] <bobweaver> hello jhodapp
[18:05] <tgm4883> and also link to the demo stuff
[18:05] <tgm4883> but definitely remove the "building ubuntu tv 2d stuff"
[18:05] <bobweaver> so like add a link to the old stuff in the new page tgm4883  ?
[18:06] <tgm4883> eh, no
[18:06] <bobweaver> explain plz
[18:06] <bootidsa> i vote to change the wiki to 3d as described .
[18:06] <tgm4883> write a quick summary of how to demo the stuff via the PPA you made
[18:06] <bobweaver> ok
[18:06] <tgm4883> remove the "this is how you build it", until you can build it on unity 3d
[18:06] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  there is good news on that btw
[18:07] <tgm4883> you can build it and all our work is finished? :)
[18:07] <bobweaver> anyone else got anything to says about doc's ?
[18:07] <CrestedNewt> I am happy to help out here
[18:07] <bobweaver> lol tgm4883  never
[18:07] <bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  that would be great would you see me after the meeting ?
[18:07] <tgm4883> I need to write some docs on the mythtv integration
[18:08] <CrestedNewt> will do
[18:08] <tgm4883> but I need to finish converting everything first
[18:08] <bobweaver> thanks CrestedNewt
[18:08] <bobweaver> anyone else got anything to says about doc's ?
[18:08] <bootidsa> no
[18:08] <bobweaver> cool
[18:09] <bobweaver> Agenda for docs is now done ! yeah
[18:09] <bobweaver> Agenda:  New Members Updates and Keeping people busy+happy
[18:09] <bootidsa> I noted that Acer was mentioned on Target Platforms
[18:09] <bobweaver> docs kinda help with this
[18:09] <bobweaver> we *NEED* more Unity people esp nux people to help me
[18:09] <bootidsa> Ican only help with Artwork, sorry.
[18:09] <tgm4883> IIRC, there is no target platform other than x86/x86_64/ARM
[18:10] <bobweaver> anyone know Unity 3d devs ?
[18:10] <bootidsa> not well enough.
[18:10] <jhodapp> bobweaver, yes :)
[18:10] <bobweaver> can talk with them to put up with my bs ? get them to become new members ?
[18:11] <bobweaver> cool jhodapp
[18:11] <bobweaver> anyone else got ideas to bring in new members ?
[18:11] <bobweaver> fbook g+ ect ?
[18:11] <bootidsa> magazine ?
[18:11] <bobweaver> spam the forums ?
[18:11] <jhodapp> bobweaver, I think those are good methods, but having some cool defined tasks to do would help
[18:11] <tgm4883> well besides social networking, I think we need to have a community type meeting
[18:11] <CrestedNewt> don't spam - gets people backs up
[18:12] <tgm4883> but I was going to bring that up during the meeting agenda item
[18:12] <bobweaver> cool maybe we should come back to that ?
[18:12] <tgm4883> sure
[18:12] <bootidsa> Yes the google plus side of things is vacant .. and this where we could shine ..be happy to contribute .. whio does the group on G+ ?
[18:12] <tgm4883> the ubuntu tv team ;)
[18:13] <bootidsa> What is 'there' profile link on G+ ?
[18:13] <tgm4883> https://plus.google.com/b/104659991254860976283/+UbuntuTV/posts
[18:13] <bobweaver> I have admin rights to g+ most the team does if they do not then contact mhall
[18:13] <bootidsa> I>@E> who do I send links to to celebrate Ubuntu TV ?
[18:13] <bobweaver> or mailing list
[18:13] <tgm4883> bootidsa, I think there is a better link, I just don't recall it right now :)
[18:13] <tgm4883> mhall119 knows
[18:14] <bobweaver> bootidsa,  yeah contact mhall119
[18:14] <bobweaver> he is are community manager
[18:14] <bootidsa> tgm4883, OK can you send it to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>when you have a moment ?
[18:14] <tgm4883> https://plus.google.com/+UbuntuTV
[18:14] <tgm4883> that is the better link :)
[18:15] <bobweaver> cool well lets think about new member's and come back to that unless you have something that you are dieing to say
[18:15] <bootidsa> Ok I'l just +Ubuntu TV in myb posts .. but an email would be sufficient really.
[18:15] <bootidsa> not at mo.
[18:16] <bobweaver> Agenda: new members done ?
[18:16] <bobweaver> Agenda: Unity 3d :: Advancements and hold backs
[18:16] <bootidsa> pass. brb.
[18:16] <bobweaver> ok so I have made a new standalone mode that one can now use and frame is def comming togeather
[18:17] <CrestedNewt> good job!
[18:17] <bobweaver> people can test and also give me feed back though it is no where near done
[18:17] <CrestedNewt> I can test as an EU if that helps
[18:17] <bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  if you like after the meeting we can talk and this is something thta I would like to see in docs
[18:18] <CrestedNewt> sure
[18:18] <bobweaver> let me take a pic real quick
[18:18] <jhodapp> nice bobweaver
[18:19] <bobweaver> http://imagebin.org/237706
[18:19] <bobweaver> as you can see there is now a binary that builds when unity 3d builds and one can launch that
[18:20] <bobweaver> some of the hold backs that I am having is that I am just learning nux and having some of the layering is hard for me but I am learning
[18:20] <bobweaver> stupid widgets
[18:20] <bobweaver> :)
[18:20] <bobweaver> but it is now in are trunk and one can use this
[18:21] <bobweaver> I have not finshed by any means but there is least a start
[18:21] <bobweaver> if anyone has questions about it feel free to email me or ping me on are channel
[18:22] <bobweaver> I have not finshed channel view nor coverflow yet but got the binary there and it is now something that one can test
[18:22] <jhodapp> bobweaver, have you ever chatted with any of the Nux developers in #ubuntu-unity before?
[18:22] <bobweaver> but if you know Unity 3d devs esp NUX peps please send my way
[18:22] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  I try
[18:23] <bobweaver> gotten some help but not that many people know about NUX
[18:23] <jhodapp> bobweaver, no, but certainly the people who know the most about it (because they created Nux) are in that room
[18:24] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  I want to see if I can get jason to help me but cn never find him I should send him a email
[18:24] <jhodapp> bobweaver, yeah, that's a good idea
[18:24] <bobweaver> I asked the whole channel yesterday and today if they would show up for this
[18:24] <jhodapp> bobweaver, it sounds like that's one of the best things to spend your time on for right now is getting a solid communication line open with the people who can help you with Nux
[18:24] <bobweaver> but IDK if anyof them did
[18:25] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  you should help me with that as you are can emply
[18:25] <bobweaver> pretty plz that is :)
[18:25] <jhodapp> bobweaver, I can certainly ping people for you when you can't get their attention
[18:26] <bobweaver> thanks jhodapp  not sure if they take me for real yet + I ask dumg questions sometimes
[18:26] <bobweaver> at any rate I will  put that UP on my list
[18:26] <bobweaver> any one else got anything to say about Unity 3d or questions ?
[18:26] <CrestedNewt> the only way of learning is by showing ones ignorance
[18:26] <bobweaver> integration that is ^^
[18:26] <jhodapp> bobweaver, no such thing as a dumb question (the only dumb one is the one not asked)
[18:27] <CrestedNewt> jhodapp - well said
[18:27] <bobweaver> I would also like to say that it is on raring :)
[18:27] <tgm4883> no questions from me, I'll probably have some for you once I get the backend stuff to converted so we can test it
[18:27] <CrestedNewt> nothing from me
[18:27] <bobweaver> I am on raring so we are moving in the right direction which brings up new topic
[18:28] <bobweaver> Agenda: Time-Line Due to the limited time that some of us have
[18:28] <bobweaver> you all I am srry grinding the midnight oil on this project and I love it but not sure that this is going to be done in 5 months
[18:29] <tgm4883> I think feature wise, timeline is up to the people doing the Unity 3D work (bobweaver)
[18:29] <bobweaver> we might have to push things back a little but IDWT
[18:29] <tgm4883> bobweaver, and feature wise, you only have until March 7th
[18:29] <bobweaver> good point tgm4883  that is why I need some help
[18:29] <bobweaver> I mean unity 3d has like 20 peps always working on it
[18:30] <bobweaver> I have to keep up with that and I also have to add thing's
[18:30] <bobweaver> like I spend more time (in the start) fixing unity and not even working on code
[18:31] <CrestedNewt> bobweaver - what if you just sat on a LTS release as the basic libs, that do not change?
[18:31] <CrestedNewt> then you are not always chasing your tail
[18:31] <bobweaver> took me a day of re-writing cmakelist files to get to config but I have gotten some help with that and am past that hurdle
[18:31] <bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  that is a real real real real real good point
[18:31] <bobweaver> and idea
[18:32] <bobweaver> I for one love that idea that we will try to release a full version on next lts
[18:32] <tgm4883> I still think something is wrong with how this this happening if Unity builds keep breaking
[18:32] <tgm4883> but maybe it's just me being a Python dev
[18:32] <tgm4883> jhodapp, ^
[18:32] <bobweaver> everything up to that will be Mockup stuff
[18:32] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  it is because *other*  libs are always changing
[18:32] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - but if Unity is always changing, there is no solid foundation
[18:33] <jhodapp> tgm4883, what's the issue exactly, I don't quite follow
[18:33] <CrestedNewt> without a solid foundation, bobweaver can't move forwards
[18:33] <tgm4883> jhodapp, bascially, things in Unity keep changing and causing bobweaver to have to redo work
[18:33] <bobweaver> kinda ^^
[18:34] <bobweaver> it was more that Unity would not build due to changes in libs
[18:34] <bobweaver> but this has been fixed
[18:34] <bobweaver> you know nux3 to nux 4
[18:34] <bobweaver> libunity changing
[18:34] <jhodapp> yes, that's a major change
[18:35] <tgm4883> CrestedNewt, meh, not necessarily true. Sure things in Unity are changing. But lets take it from my perspective (admittedly a Python one). I import another library in python and use one of it's functions. That library might change over time, but as long as it still returns values that I would expect (not changing from a list to a dict) then my code is fine
[18:35] <jhodapp> there's 2 options there though...you can keep tracking the latest of all of these libs (which might be a good idea), or you can say we're targeting version x or each lib like unity and nux
[18:35] <bobweaver> I mean every one of unityshell/plugins/*  needed new cmakelist file because it would not work
[18:35] <bobweaver> not work = not installing and linking libs
[18:36] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - I'm not a coder but was a problem and change manager for alarge international oild company looking after systems for europe
[18:36] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - but i also understand where you are coming from
[18:37] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  both good ideas and I am tracking all bugs and changes to both tunk and stagging but then I see that staging is now going to chang to something else and who knows whta changes are going to come with that or if them libs are eeven goinng to make it into main
[18:37] <bobweaver> that is my concerns as I could only find libs in stagging to make this work due to nux 4
[18:37] <bobweaver> and other libs
[18:38] <bobweaver> and if stagging is changing to something else and what if compiz from stagging is not included into main then kahput
[18:38] <jhodapp> bobweaver, you're talking about package staging, right?
[18:38] <bobweaver> yeah the ppa
[18:39] <bobweaver> sorry about that Unity stagging ppa is what I am talking about
[18:39] <jhodapp> bobweaver, ok, popey might be able to give you insights into your uncertainty there
[18:39] <tgm4883> jhodapp, bobweaver one of our previous discussions was a point in time when Unity wouldn't even build by itself (without bobweaver's additions)
[18:39] <tgm4883> which seems bad IMO
[18:39] <bobweaver> and was bad
[18:39] <jhodapp> tgm4883, unity trunk wouldn't build?
[18:39] <bobweaver> belive me
[18:39] <tgm4883> jhodapp, yea
[18:39] <tgm4883> so bobweaver says, I didn't try it ;)
[18:40] <bobweaver> would not build because main(ubuntu ppa) unity  for raring is calling stuff from stagging . and it was a mess
[18:40] <jhodapp> tgm4883, seems weird, a change usually won't get merged into trunk unless it passes the tests and the continuous integration build by QA
[18:40] <bobweaver> like libs in main had not yet landed from stagging
[18:40] <bobweaver> nux 4 compiz ect
[18:41] <bobweaver> sence then I have changed the way that I am building this but once again I am not sure as to which one of the libs that Unity team is going to pick for there main
[18:41] <bobweaver> but what hurt more was not just the libs
[18:41] <tgm4883> I still think something is wrong here. From my point of view, the same issues would plague any Unity developer
[18:42] <jhodapp> tgm4883, precisely
[18:42] <bobweaver> it was the fact that cmakelist(s) needed to be re-wrote because they where erroroing out on config (cmake ../ -DCMAKE_INSTALL_.......)
[18:43] <bobweaver> mainly plugins and makeing room for new binary for tv
[18:43] <jhodapp> bobweaver, did you have anyone else try the same thing when it was failing just to confirm?
[18:43] <bobweaver> you can look at change logs of branch to see what I had to do it is documented there
[18:44] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  yeah
[18:44] <tgm4883> to continue progress in this meeting, I move to put this item on hold and continue. Either coming back to this at the end of the meeting (time permitted) or continue this discussion in the #ubuntu-tv channel
[18:44] <bobweaver> unity team said "that si what where are fixing right now "
[18:44] <bobweaver> good idea tgm4883
[18:44] <jhodapp> bobweaver, ok
[18:45] <bobweaver> New Agenda : Meetings Pick a day and time for recurring weekly meetings
[18:45] <tgm4883> #subtopic  Meetings Pick a day and time for recurring weekly meetings
[18:45] <bobweaver> I like this time what do you all think about that ? is it good for you would sat be better ect
[18:45] <tgm4883> I like this time
[18:45] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  ?
[18:45] <bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  ?
[18:46] <CrestedNewt> I am flexible - some friday nights I'm out, some saturdays I'm out :D
[18:46] <tgm4883> I don't like anything that gets into people's weekends
[18:46] <bobweaver> that is a good point
[18:46] <CrestedNewt> keep it to friday nights then?
[18:46] <tgm4883> so mon - thurs might work better, but i'm in the US so it's friday morning for me :)
[18:46] <CrestedNewt> I'm in the UK
[18:46] <jhodapp> bobweaver, works for me
[18:46] <bobweaver> lets wait for jhodapp  and his input. I wish that we could also get will to show up he is AWESOME
[18:47] <CrestedNewt> so I'm on GMT anyway
[18:47] <bobweaver> well then settled ever fri at this time
[18:47] <CrestedNewt> kk
[18:47] <bobweaver> if alright with you all
[18:47] <bobweaver> #vote
[18:47] <meetingology> Please vote on:
[18:47] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[18:47] <bobweaver> +1
[18:47] <CrestedNewt> +1
[18:47] <bootidsa> +1
[18:47] <tgm4883> +1
[18:48] <tgm4883> bobweaver, I think you need votesrequired as well
[18:48] <bobweaver> er I dont know how to use this bot lol
[18:48] <bobweaver> #endvote
[18:48] <meetingology> No vote in progress
[18:48] <bobweaver> lol
[18:48] <tgm4883> next topic
[18:48] <bobweaver> form-factor
[18:48] <bobweaver> josephjamesmills would like to work on using different form factors but can not figure out on his own, maybe if Unity people show up
[18:48] <tgm4883> or I forgot the thing I was going to bring up ;)
[18:49] <tgm4883> I'll come back to it
[18:49] <tgm4883> This seems similar to the other Unity 3D items
[18:49] <bobweaver> well that is pretty much covered in getting me some friends that will put up with my bs and teach me about form-factor
[18:49] <bobweaver> unity 3d team ^^
[18:50] <bobweaver> I just need like 4 hours with a unity 3d dev to do a goolge hangout
[18:50] <bobweaver> to teach me the stuff that I do not understand though I am RE unity 3d ok for the time being
[18:51] <bobweaver> Next adgenda : from the wiki they are all covered . so if you got anything to add now would be the time
[18:51] <tgm4883> community meetings
[18:51] <tgm4883> I think the last meeting of the month should be a community meeting, where people could show up and ask any questions they have
[18:51] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  what do you mean ?
[18:52] <tgm4883> hopefully this would get more people involved
[18:52] <bobweaver> that is a great great great IDEA !!!!
[18:52] <tgm4883> also, we wouldn't have to advertise every meeting every week every where, just the last meeting
[18:52] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - that sounds like a great idea - but it needs to be focused
[18:52] <tgm4883> CrestedNewt, focused on what?
[18:53] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  on are channel or should we make a channel ?  #ubuntu-tc-community-meetup or whatever
[18:53] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - sometimes at these types of meetings some ppl try and take over for their point only
[18:53] <bobweaver> we can regulate that CrestedNewt
[18:53] <tgm4883> bobweaver, on this channel
[18:53] <CrestedNewt> ok
[18:53] <bobweaver> lol tgm4883
[18:53] <tgm4883> bobweaver, it would just take the place of our normal meeting
[18:53] <bobweaver> on this channel ?
[18:54] <tgm4883> bobweaver, isn't that where our normal weekly meeting will be?
[18:54] <bootidsa> you advertis it on Google Plus too !
[18:54] <bobweaver> I will make youtube video
[18:54] <bobweaver> and put on g+ about this ?
[18:54] <bootidsa> yep.
[18:54] <tgm4883> yea the idea would be for us to advertise it on all social media, website, etc
[18:54] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  that is a great idea
[18:55] <tgm4883> and since it's once a month, we wouldn't be spamming everyone all the time
[18:55] <bobweaver> so plush
[18:56] <bootidsa> netsplit !
[18:57] <bobweaver> I would like to set up a community found that is for getting us "team members" hardware
[18:57] <bobweaver> how can we do that ?
[18:57] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  that is more question for you ^^
[18:57] <bobweaver> I think
[18:57] <tgm4883> bobweaver, do we need that?
[18:57] <bobweaver> I do
[18:57] <tgm4883> what kinda hardware?
[18:57] <tgm4883> kind of*
[18:57] <bobweaver> armel boards
[18:57] <tgm4883> ah
[18:57] <bootidsa> I have a spare Revo .. ?
[18:58] <jhodapp> bobweaver, it's a good question, but I'm with tgm4883...what's wrong with using your PC?
[18:58] <bobweaver> even if was remote at canonical office
[18:58] <tgm4883>  jhodapp I think it's for ARM stuff
[18:58] <tgm4883> which I don't think he can test on a normal PC
[18:58] <bobweaver> jhodapp,  I was thinking that this most likly would be on arm and I can not afford anything
[18:58] <jhodapp> tgm4883, yes, but why do you need to run on ARM today?
[18:58] <bobweaver> I am super super super poor
[18:58] <tgm4883> specifically with how usable it is on ARM
[18:58] <CrestedNewt> I can try and talk to ARM as their head office is only about 45 mins away from me
[18:59] <tgm4883> CrestedNewt, I don't think ARM makes any hardware?
[18:59] <bobweaver> not today but raising money for devs can take time
[18:59] <jhodapp> tgm4883, they make reference boards
[18:59] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - no they don't but they have influence as the manufacturers basically build under license
[18:59] <tgm4883> IMO, it needs to be off the shelf hardware
[18:59] <CrestedNewt> of their tech
[19:00] <bobweaver> listen I do not even want a board shiped to house I am just going to need stuff to test code on and run valgrind
[19:00] <CrestedNewt> I'm with tgm4883 - lets get it out as a STB first - make other big brands sit up and take notice
[19:00] <bobweaver> I can chroot and make virtual but that is not a real test
[19:00] <tgm4883> bobweaver, jhodapp perhaps it's something that the canoncal testing lab can do
[19:00] <bobweaver> I want to make sure that my code runs on arm and is not leaky
[19:00] <tgm4883> CrestedNewt, I completely disagree with that, and that isn't our target anyway
[19:01] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - ok
[19:01] <jhodapp> but to bobweaver's point, considering how to get hardware today isn't a bad idea
[19:01] <tgm4883> CrestedNewt, it's much easier to work with something open, rather than hack a tivo to run it on
[19:01] <jhodapp> maybe we can ask for some community donations
[19:01] <bobweaver> Like at next UDS if we could have boards to test valfrind reports
[19:01] <bootidsa> kickstarter !
[19:02] <CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - agreed - I'm looking at mounting on the back of a screen with HW readily available
[19:02] <bobweaver> IDK all I know is that I can not afford to by any because I have to feed my dog
[19:02] <bobweaver> that is how poor I am
[19:02] <jhodapp> bobweaver, nobody is asking you to buy one, use your PC for now
[19:02] <bobweaver> bottom line is this. there is no why what so ever that I can afford anything like this and if it is going to go to skunkworks then what ?
[19:03] <bobweaver> It was just a idea
[19:03] <bootidsa> here's my G+ if anyone wants to hangout or follow me https://plus.google.com/103093000923989045518
[19:03] <bobweaver> ok any dire things to cover ?
[19:04] <tgm4883> nope
[19:04] <cm-t> thanks bootidsa && hi *
[19:04] <CrestedNewt> bobweaver - I'm with tgm4883 that it should only be off the shelf stuff. At the end of the day, if Ubuntu will run on it, Ubuntu-TV should also run on it
[19:04] <bobweaver> +1
[19:04] <tgm4883> +1
[19:04] <bobweaver> lets take this to are channel
[19:05] <bobweaver> #end meeting
[19:05] <tgm4883> our*
[19:05] <bobweaver> #endmeeting
[19:05] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 30 19:05:06 2012 UTC.
[19:05] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-18.03.moin.txt
[19:05] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-18.03.html
[19:05] <bootidsa> nice meeting .. felt we hoit a wall about getting hardware, when I mentioned kickstarting a campaign.
[19:05] <bootidsa> **hit
[19:06] <bobweaver> thanks for showing up everyone
[19:06] <bobweaver> are channel is #ubuntu-tv
[19:06] <YoBoY> thanks bobweaver and everyone :)
[19:06] <jhodapp> thanks guys, good meeting
[19:15]  * cm-t_ was fighting with connexion…
[20:04] <bobweaver> ping mhall119,  when ever you get chance . its about updating fridge and what not to have meetings ever fri @ 1pm are time . and the last friday of the month is for people that have questions about Ubuntu tv they can ask then . I would mess it up if I tried to convert time like that. a minus of being dyslexic . Thanks
[20:51] <rglastra> telnet xmlapi.paypal.com 80
[20:51] <rglastra> sorry.


[02:00] <h4writer> kwwii, still not online?:p
[02:03] <h4writer> I guess not
[02:03] <h4writer> goodbye, I'm heading for my bed.
[10:57] <kwwii> moin all
[12:44] <klepas> moin andreasn
[12:44] <andreasn> hi klepas
[03:39] <lapo> hi
[03:41] <MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
[03:41] <lapo> yo MacSlow
[03:42] <lapo> any 3d accelerated news? :-)
[03:42] <MacSlow> what (CC)-licence is the tangerine set published under... I've a hard time finding that info...
[03:42] <lapo> ciao andreasn
[03:43] <andreasn_> what's up?=
[03:43] <MacSlow> I used the "left" arrow as a button in my talk I did at FOSDEM this weekend and now people want to see my .odp published... but for the 3rd-party artwork used I want to give proper credit
[03:43] <MacSlow> hi lapo, andreasn!
[03:44] <andreasn_> MacSlow: how was fosdem?
[03:44] <lapo> MacSlow: cc-by-sa
[03:44] <lapo> MacSlow: like tango
[03:45] <lapo> MacSlow: iirc the arrows are ulisse's work (derived from jimmac's?)
[03:45] <MacSlow> andreasn_ informative, sweet, thrilling and as always exhausting
[03:45] <lapo> MacSlow: btw you can check the metadatas in the svg
[03:45] <MacSlow> lapo, I generated a png form the svg added a bit of text in gimp and saved it as png
[03:46] <MacSlow> to be useable as "button" in my OO-presentation
[03:46] <MacSlow> so I created a derivative
[03:46] <lapo> MacSlow: yep, so it needs to be cc-by-sa as well
[03:47] <lapo> MacSlow: I can confirm that the tangerine arrows are ulisse's work
[03:48] <MacSlow> andreasn, I finally met Michael Meeks, Kristian Hoegsberg, pippin, Nat Friedman and Michael Daenzer in person
[03:48] <MacSlow> andreasn and so many more... it was totally wicked!
[03:48] <andreasn_> those are cool dudes, I think I've met most of them in person
[03:49] <lapo> MacSlow: c'mon amaze your friends with some new sweet stuff! :-)
[03:49] <MacSlow> andreasn, also ran into the people behind nouveau again this year... impressive what they put out with the little information they have for nv-hardware
[03:50] <andreasn_> MacSlow: yeah, that looks like a amazing project, more free beer to them!
[03:50] <MacSlow> lapo, ok... I think a README file, with proper credits, with my talk's .odp in a tarball will do?
[03:51] <lapo> MacSlow: I don't really know I'm not a license expert at all :-/
[03:52] <lapo> if it would depend on me I'd release everything with x license
[03:52] <andreasn_> what was your talk about?
[03:52] <MacSlow> and it looks like this year will be very demanding for me
[03:53] <MacSlow> andreasn  http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=18681
[03:53] <Ubugtu> OpenOffice.org bug 18681 in cs "Wrong characters in imported Word document" [Defect,Resolved: later]
[04:08] <MacSlow> andreasn, what's ulisse's real name?
[04:08] <lapo> MacSlow: Ulisse Perusin
[04:08] <MacSlow> lapo, thx
[04:08] <andreasn> lapo should know, it's his cousin
[04:08] <MacSlow> ah ok
[04:09] <lapo> eheh
[04:12] <nysosym> hi there :)
[04:17] <kwwii> howdy nysosym, all
[04:18] <nysosym> hi kwwii :)
[04:18] <nysosym> how are u?
[04:18] <nysosym> very nice wallpapers
[04:18] <kwwii> nysosym: good, thanks :-) and you?
[04:18] <nysosym> http://www.hamaddarwish.com/
[04:18] <nysosym> also good :)
[04:21] <nysosym> what do u do kwwii?
[04:21] <kwwii> trying to figure out why the gnome session splash has a crapy line around it
[04:21] <kwwii> at first I thought it was a matter of using a colormapped pic
[04:21] <kwwii> but that is not the case
[04:22] <nysosym> as far as i know, can usplash only have a 1bit alpha channel, maybe is this the problem?
[04:23] <lapo> yo kwwii, nice work with gdm and usplash
[04:24] <kwwii> lapo: thanks...the gdm is still underway
[04:24] <kwwii> and the session splash simply sucks
[04:24] <lapo> kwwii: the session splash should die imho (it's fast enough now, it could be killed)
[04:25] <kwwii> lapo: yeah, that exact point makes testing is hard
[04:25] <kwwii> apparently it is a transparency issue
[04:25] <lapo> kwwii: for gdm please consider putting the session and language buttons back under the input box as it was in...uhm 5.10
[04:25] <kwwii> freaky, never seen this before
[04:26] <lapo> kwwii: can't you just kill it?
[04:26] <nysosym> kwwii: see my post above ;)
[04:26] <lapo> kwwii: it's a lot of work, for uhm...2 seconds? :-)
[04:26] <kwwii> nysosym: yeah, that guy made the vista pic wallpapers
[04:26] <kwwii> lapo: not really my decision  ;-)
[04:26] <kwwii> yet :p
[04:27] <nysosym> kwwii: no, i mean that usplash only can have a 1bit alpha channel
[04:27] <kwwii> nysosym: the usplash is 8 bit anyway
[04:27] <kwwii> this thing uses 24bit pngs but can't display the transparency in them corretly
[04:27] <lapo> kwwii: the usplash is really nice, you have a tiny bit of banding on the "ubuntu" gradient tho
[04:28] <kwwii> yeah, it was a trade-off for more glow
[04:28] <lapo> kwwii: did you try adding some dithering?
[04:29] <kwwii> lapo: it seems you've been busy drawing some pretty nice icons :-)
[04:29] <lapo> kwwii: not so busy with icons, I'm slacking a lot latelly :-)
[04:29] <kwwii> lapo: nope, none at all yet - wanted to wait to see about the space available
[04:31] <nysosym> kwwii: and when u remove the transparency border?
[04:32] <nysosym> something like this
[04:32] <nysosym> http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ubuntuslickab6.png
[04:35] <kwwii> nysosym: yeah, I basically just have to work around that
[04:40] <nysosym> kwwii: btw. do you work byside also on oxygen? I have heard that the next kde 4 release also have a completed interface (Oxygen, Plasma)?
[04:40] <kwwii> nysosym: yepp
[04:41] <nysosym> nice :)
[04:42] <kwwii> thanks :)
[04:42] <kwwii> gonna run to the store...bbl
[04:42] <nysosym> yeah, have fun ;(
[04:42] <nysosym> ;)
[04:43] <nysosym> kde 4 will be my first longer session with kde :D
[04:47] <kwwii> hehe, and I have been using gnome for the last month or so
[04:47] <kwwii> :-)
[04:47] <kwwii> ok, I am off
[04:47] <nysosym> ok, bye bye cu later ;)
[06:03] <kwwii> h4writer: hi
[06:03] <h4writer> hi
[06:04] <h4writer> I got already an update
[06:04] <kwwii> h4writer: now I know where to get help from ;-)
[06:04] <h4writer> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/7576/
[06:05] <lapo> kwwii: do you know if the OO.o jimmac's tango refresh will end up in feisty?
[06:05] <h4writer> that's the ./stylesheets/toc2html.xsl
[06:05] <kwwii> lapo: not sure but it should if possible
[06:06] <kwwii> h4writer: that looks like fun work :-)
[06:06] <h4writer> so it is plusminus updated, but it is not what I exactly wanted. But what I want isn't possible with only editing the .xsl files
[06:07] <kwwii> gotcha
[06:07] <h4writer> So I will try to do that to. But it will take some time.
[06:07] <kwwii> I asked around and someone said that you should also talk to the doc team about this stuff
[06:08] <kwwii> and dholbach will help with any packaging questions
[06:08] <h4writer> that would be helpful
[06:08] <kwwii> if you've a question, send it to me per email and I will forward it to him with an introduction :-)
[06:09] <kwwii> or, if you find him in chat, ask away :-)
[06:09] <h4writer> Is he able to edit the .c files, so I don't need to do that?
[06:09] <kwwii> I am sure he could, but he is really busy
[06:10] <h4writer> okey
[06:10] <kwwii> we're all really busy working on feisty
[06:10] <h4writer> yeah, hopefully, the more you do the better it will be;-)
[06:11] <h4writer> that's why I want to help
[06:11] <h4writer> I've heard feisty will not come with compiz by default enabled?
[06:12] <h4writer> and I love internet roaming, except the fact you can't specify the ip yourself. To bad.
[06:13] <kwwii> yeah, the 3d stuff is still too young to gowith it per defualt
[06:13] <h4writer> yes I know
[06:13] <h4writer> I've already tried it a couple of times, but I don't like it how compiz presents it
[06:14] <h4writer> all that jumping stuff. But I think it will be helpful to create new and better layouts
[06:14] <kwwii> once it works on most machines it will be, yes
[06:15] <h4writer> indeed
[06:15] <h4writer> I'm going to explore the source of yelp again, see you. If you want to say something. I'm still here, so writing my name will notify my;-)
[06:16] <kwwii> cool, will do
[07:21] <fschoep> troy_s: ping
[07:21] <troy_s> woop
[07:30] <h4writer_> kwwii, I've send a mail;-)
[07:36] <h4writer_> kwwii, just saw it was the wrong email address. Now I've send it to the right one;-)
[08:03] <kwwii> h4writer_: erm, not sure exactly who to ask that about...let me check
[08:05] <h4writer_> okey
[08:05] <kwwii> h4writer_: well, danial is offline, not sure who to ask ... I guess that the doc team would be the right place to start
[08:06] <h4writer_> okey
[08:06] <troy_s> is this all for that minor change to the help system?
[08:06] <troy_s> it can't possibly be this difficult.
[08:07] <troy_s> h4writer_: ?
[08:08] <h4writer_> it isn't that much that has to be changed
[08:08] <h4writer_> but there are some things in C that need to change
[08:08] <h4writer_> Like I want the search layout be the same of the toc layout
[08:09] <h4writer_> but now there's almost no layout on search
[08:09] <h4writer_> So someone need to script the left bar in .C, so I can use it in search
[08:09] <h4writer_> that's mostly copy/paste work, because the source is there for toc
[08:10] <h4writer_> but I don't have the knowledge about it
[08:10] <troy_s> that will be an upstream issue
[08:10] <troy_s> as i believe it comes directly from gnome themselves
[08:10] <troy_s> again, your power player on that front who will be listened to might be andreasn
[08:11] <h4writer_> And I want to have the location bar away. But it need to become again visible when going to man/info/...
[08:12] <h4writer_> but I will ask andreasn when he comes online
[08:13] <troy_s> he is a wealth of information
[08:13] <troy_s> and he is very in touch with the gnome scene
[08:13] <troy_s> so if there is anything that is hard coded that is breaking theming rules
[08:13] <troy_s> he would probably be able to further the cause.
[08:14] <h4writer_> okey
[08:18] <h4writer_> that's what I have now: http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6084/screenshot1rf5.png
[08:46] <h4writer_> troy_s, I've seen somebody called mdke has already been busy with it. So I will address him;-)
[08:46] <h4writer_> http://www.mdke.org/?p=81#comments


[09:42] <JackFrost> bluesabre: https://bugs.debian.org/982843
[09:42] <ubot3> Debian bug 982843 in libayatana-indicator "Having an autopkgtest would be useful" [Normal, Open]
[09:42] <JackFrost> Not the first of its kind I've seen either.


[16:02] <slangasek> jodh, xnox: hi, so I assume you've seen these build failures on trunk and that someone's working on sorting them out?
[16:04] <xnox> slangasek: that one needs a fix in lp:ubuntu/upstart
[16:04] <xnox> yeah, it was fixed for distcheck target, but not in the ubuntu-branch compile.
[16:05] <slangasek> ok - so is that something we wait to fix until we're released and ready to upload to saucy?
[16:07] <jodh> the test_libupstart failure looks like it's a no-dbus-in-chroot issue.
[16:07] <xnox> slangasek: pushed a fix, and requested a new ppa build.
[16:08] <slangasek> xnox: cool, thanks
[16:09] <xnox> slangasek: well at the moment I think everything is ready for 1.9 upstream release, but then further work will be needed to merge up 1.9 into lp:ubuntu/upstart.
[16:09] <slangasek> ack
[16:09] <xnox> that later will also require additional patches from mdsleur
[16:11] <jodh> xnox: your fix is for the abi-check right? we may as well resolve the dbus/chroot issue before putting a release out tomorrow I think.
[16:12] <xnox> jodh: what's the issue around dbus/chroot?
[16:12] <xnox> jodh: if something needs dbus, simply wrap the whole command/environment with "dbus-launch -- " and that's it.
[16:12] <jodh> xnox: I thought we were all taking about: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/143474336/buildlog_ubuntu-raring-amd64.upstart_1.8%2Bdaily%2B1489%2B1444%2B201306261447~raring1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz but seemingly not :)
[16:14] <jodh> xnox: no - that won't work as dbus isn't configured in the chroots.
[16:15] <jodh> xnox: see in_chroot() and dbus_configured() in test_initctl.c.
[16:16] <jodh> so, really, we need to fix test_libupstart() to handle being run from within a chroot. Technically, that test is flawed as it assumes it's already running on a system with upstart - it should really spawn its own instance.
[16:46] <magmatt> I have /etc/init/aolserver.conf http://bpaste.net/show/fDLGOSF3dfG7X6RTyGkk/ but, because there's nothing running in the foreground, I can't stop/restart it.  What's a better approach to starting multiple services?
[16:52] <jodh> magmatt: I think you should be looking at 'instance': http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#instance
[16:52] <jodh> magmatt: the examples in the cookbook are a little basic, but this example might be more useful...
[16:53] <jodh> magmatt: worker.conf: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5802034/
[16:53] <jodh> magmatt: workers.conf: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5802036/
[16:54] <magmatt> okay, thank you jodh.  I'll have a go at that
[16:56] <magmatt> jodh: if one of the stop worker commands fails (in workers.conf) will it not continue to the others?
[16:57] <jodh> magmatt: if you want it to: change 'stop worker id=$inst' to 'stop worker id=$inst || :'.
[17:27] <magmatt> jodh: how do I get `initctl status workers` to work? Here's what I'm seeing: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5802108/
[17:30] <magmatt> would it be silly to do: script while true; do done; end script?
[17:31] <magmatt> or maybe with a long sleep in there
[17:57] <jodh> magmatt: maybe just do "initctl list|grep aol" :)