[18:53] <fwereade> TheChistoso|2, hi, did you get a response to your question about lp:1172973?
[18:56] <fwereade> TheChistoso|2, if not, the source bucket is actually public: you can set it up by hand if necessary by copying just the tools you need from http://juju-dist.s3.amazonaws.com/ to matching paths in your public-bucket
[18:57] <fwereade> TheChistoso|2, probably the only one you'll *need* is tools/juju-1.10.0-precise-amd64.tgz
[19:44] <mgz> hm, are there any blueprints filled in currently that are good templates?
[19:44] <mgz> I'm really not sure what to put for one of mine
 seems relevent for most of us


[09:18] <Quintasan> yawn
[09:18] <Quintasan> good morning
[09:51] <debfx> good morning Quintasan
[09:52] <debfx> yofel: no, could you push the fix to bzr and the ninjas ppa?
[10:26] <Trouble`> Congralutations Quintasan!! ...now where is 4.6.0 for Maverick ;-p
[10:27] <Trouble`> :D
[10:27] <Quintasan> uploading to ppas :P
[10:28] <Trouble`> Someone give Quintasan a promotion!
[10:28]  * Trouble` eyes up Riddell's job for Quintasan
[10:28] <Quintasan> LOL WUT
[10:28] <Trouble`> lol
[11:08] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: i found a reliable way to trigger that full screen issue in rekonq
[11:10] <Quintasan> Riddell: Mind if  do kdenetwork?
[12:30] <Riddell> ¬
[12:30] <shadeslayer> hey :D
[12:47] <shadeslayer> Riddell: emacs question, when i do M-x replace-string oldstring RET newstring RET it only replaces the word in the current line
[12:47] <shadeslayer> any ideas on how to do it for the whole document?
[12:47] <shadeslayer> or does it only consider the buffer after my cursor
[12:48] <shadeslayer> so i just go to the top and use that
[12:49] <shadeslayer> hmm ... looks like the latter
[13:20] <shadeslayer> Riddell: do you have any 10.04 CD's left?
[13:21] <shadeslayer> need to contact adawit too ...
[14:47] <markey> apachelogger: currently Phonon-VLC (0.3.1) got really crashy with Amarok. it used to work without any issues for months, and then something must have changed
[14:47] <markey> I have not updated it since 0.3.1 release
[14:47] <markey> now it crashes about 3 times a day, in the middle of playing...
[14:47] <markey> not sure what has changed, and what causes this...
[14:48]  * apachelogger blames amarok
[14:48] <apachelogger> markey: whats the backtrace?
[14:48] <markey> apachelogger: I don't think it's Amarok
[14:48] <apachelogger> honey
[14:48] <markey> KCrash: Application 'amarok' crashing...
[14:48] <markey> KCrash: Attempting to start /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/drkonqi from kdeinit
[14:48] <markey> ...
[14:48] <apachelogger> take a look at the enginecontroller again
[14:48] <apachelogger> ...
[14:48] <markey> anyway, I have lots of debug output
[14:48] <markey> want?
[14:48] <markey> including Phonon debug
[14:48] <apachelogger> sure
[14:48] <apachelogger> but I think you will need to run amarok in gdb
[14:49] <markey> yep
[14:49] <markey> will do that
[14:49] <apachelogger> that sounds like an assert in some deep thing to me
[14:49] <apachelogger> if drkonqi does not get started you are usually in deep shit
[14:49] <markey> apachelogger: http://pastebin.com/g47REnCB
[14:49] <markey> note: I'm not using PA, I have completly removed it
[14:49] <markey> this is pure ALSA
[14:49] <markey> but the crashing also happened with PA
[14:49] <apachelogger> [0x434fa60] main demux meta debug: using meta reader module "taglib"
[14:49] <apachelogger> oh
[14:50] <apachelogger> markey: possibly a taglib bug
[14:50] <apachelogger> or vlc
[14:50] <apachelogger> IIRC vlc's taglig plugin is the crapy or something
[14:50] <markey> apachelogger: weird
[14:50] <markey> I have not changed anything. it's Kubuntu 10.10 with latest upgrades...
[14:50] <markey> KDE 4.6 RC2
[14:50] <apachelogger> get a backtrace and talk to mr jim beam
[14:50] <markey> I will try, yes
[14:50] <markey> running in gdb now
[14:50] <apachelogger> well, maybe it is something in kdelibs that crashes
[14:50] <markey> maybe...
[14:50] <apachelogger> rc2 definitely has no changes to phonon though
[14:51] <markey> really hard to tell
[14:51] <markey> gdb will tell us more, I guess
[14:51] <markey> apachelogger: it really annoys me that Kubuntu uses libpulse, even without PA installed...
[14:51] <markey> IMHO that's just wrong
[14:51] <markey> I don't want to use libpulse
[14:52] <markey> Sput argued, I should use Gentoo, because then I can completely remove it...
[14:52] <markey> but that's not an option for me
[14:52] <apachelogger> there is nothing to use if no pulseademon is around, so it does not use libpulse
[14:52] <apachelogger> it just loads libpulse
[14:52] <markey> I love my Kubuntu
[14:52] <apachelogger> *daemon is not around
[14:52] <markey> apachelogger: but I still get the crashing on exit...
[14:52] <markey> from libpulse
[14:52] <Sput> markey: I just said that source-based distro give you the choice of features, that binary distros can't provide in principle :)
[14:52] <Sput> the alternative is rolling your own modified packages
[14:52] <markey> Amarok user Sentynel has patched his libpulse, it works now without crashing
[14:53] <markey> a one-liner patch
[14:53] <apachelogger> markey: you just need to call xinit or what the name was in your main
[14:53] <apachelogger> before doing anything
[14:53] <apachelogger> then you do not crash
[14:53] <apachelogger> ...
[14:53] <markey> apachelogger: in Amarok's main?
[14:53] <apachelogger> aye
[14:53] <markey> apachelogger: but then it needs to be special cased for Linux only
[14:54] <markey> and... what happens with Wayland?
[14:54] <markey> how can I make  it so that it's only called with X11 present?
[14:54] <apachelogger> #ifdef Q_WS_X11 or somehting like that
[14:54] <markey> cool, thanks
[14:54] <markey> will try that
[14:55] <markey> apachelogger: so, what is the full call that I need to add?
[14:55] <markey> the xinit() thing
[14:55] <markey> is that all?
[14:56] <markey> it sounds like a weird hack. does QtGui not do this automatically?
[14:56] <apachelogger> markey:    XInitThreads()
[14:57] <apachelogger> no, qtgui does not do this
[15:01] <markey> apachelogger: thanks :)
[15:10] <afiestas> agateau: ping
[16:55] <debfx> is bug #634707 SRU worthy?
[16:55] <debfx> (it's impossible to purge the kdm package on maverick)
[17:26] <Riddell> debfx: I would say yes
[17:26] <Riddell> shadeslayer: no 10.04 CDs are long since gone, 10.10 is where it's at now
[17:27] <shadeslayer> ohk
[17:27] <shadeslayer> Riddell: can you send a box over :P
[17:28] <shadeslayer> also ... i might just start a flamewar on the ubuntu-in mailing list with my mail :P
[17:28] <Riddell> shadeslayer: well I've been waiting for a week for pradeepto to give me an address in balgalore I can have them sent to
[17:29] <shadeslayer> ah :D
[17:29] <shadeslayer> Riddell: mine is a different request ... these are going to another college tech fest
[17:33] <Riddell> e-mail infoshipit@ canonical.com
[17:33] <shadeslayer> will do .....
[17:34] <shadeslayer> oooh
[17:34]  * shadeslayer has a shiny theme chooser on his android device
[18:07] <debfx> Riddell: ok, also the regression potential is low
[18:08] <debfx> could you open the maverick task on the bug
[18:48] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: How about doing a KDE theme for Android? :D
[18:49] <shadeslayer> Quintasan: that would ... amazing
[18:49] <shadeslayer> but ... sheytan is the right person
[18:49] <shadeslayer> ->artwork n00b
[18:49] <Quintasan> >implying sheytan knows how to put a metamorph together
[18:49] <Quintasan> don't we already have all the artwork we would need?
[18:50] <Quintasan> sheytan: ^^^
[18:50] <shadeslayer> i dont think so
[18:50] <shadeslayer> well icons yes, dunnot about the rest of the theme
[19:11] <ScottK> kdelibs in trunk needs a newer hupnp than we have in Natty.  I tried to do a test build of kde4libs 4.5.95 against the newer hupnp, but got what appears to be an unrelated build failure.  Can anyone else build kde4libs right now?
[19:11] <ScottK> (newer hupnp is in my PPA if someone wants to fiddle with it)
[19:19] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: was your planned rework of the k-d-i threading schema something along the lines of this? http://gitweb.kde.org/libqapt.git/commit/cfd7ed5b41fa9173f3e6c82499adcc8a157e56cd
[19:21] <JontheEchidna> k-d-i seems to be invoking the find method with a QMetaObject::invokeMethod call atm
[19:22] <ari-tczew> JontheEchidna: sponsorship for my merges is actuall?
[19:23] <JontheEchidna> ari-tczew: I still can't build them with a new pbuilder. Do you have a PPA log handy?
[19:23] <ari-tczew> JontheEchidna: I didn't send them to PPA. I can if you want. However, we should find the solution for your case.
[19:24] <JontheEchidna> I used this command to create the pbuilder:
[19:24] <JontheEchidna> sudo pbuilder create --distribution $(lsb_release -cs) \
[19:24] <JontheEchidna>         --othermirror "deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu $(lsb_release -cs) main restricted universe multiverse"
[19:32] <stalcup> congrats Quintasan \o/
[19:32] <Quintasan> stalcup: Thanks :)
[19:32] <Quintasan> How does one upgrade to maverick via kpackagekit?
[19:32] <yofel> oh right, congratulations Quintasan :)
[19:32] <Quintasan> :D
[19:33] <debfx> JontheEchidna: shouldn't you use --mirror instead of --othermirror?
[19:34] <JontheEchidna> debfx: dunno, I got the command off the ubuntu packaging guide, and I've not run into any problems with those sources not being available
[19:37] <debfx> maybe it doesn't make a difference but the main repository should be in --mirror
[19:39] <shadeslayer> ScottK: trunk as in ... KDE trunk or KDE 4.6 tarballs?
[19:40] <shadeslayer> because iirc we have a outstanding packaging issue with neon and hupnp
[19:41] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: invokemethod on an object in a different thread is indirect
[19:42] <apachelogger> java java java
[19:42] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: enough of java :P
[19:43] <apachelogger> one cannot have enough java
[19:43] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: java makes you sane
[19:43] <shadeslayer> you do not want to become sane
[19:43] <shadeslayer> flipping kdebindings
[19:43] <apachelogger> lies
[19:49] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: if you see kronos, tell him that akunambol needs to be done ASAP
[19:49] <apachelogger> ruphy threatens to kill me
[19:50]  * apachelogger would rather not die the hand of an italian
[19:50] <apachelogger> find the missing word!
[19:50] <apachelogger> 10 launchpad karma points to the winner
[20:04] <markey> http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=129572435508899&w=2
[20:04] <markey> ^ why the Open File dialog in VLC takes one minute to open
[20:04] <markey> interesting read
[20:18] <sheytan> Quintasan, shadeslayer: I have never done an androi theme. Need a device to test :)
[20:18] <sheytan> But i'm going to buy one in 2-3 months
[20:18] <shadeslayer> sheytan: sure .. you can test on mine and Quintasan's :P
[20:18] <shadeslayer> just send us the theme files
[20:18] <Quintasan> sheytan: :D
[20:18] <sheytan> thinking of wildefire HTC
[20:19] <shadeslayer> sheytan: nah .. get a Desire
[20:19] <shadeslayer> Wildfire is slow
[20:19] <sheytan> will take a look ;)
[20:19] <sheytan> Now need to spent money on my car
[20:20] <sheytan> need to pay insurance etc
[20:20] <sheytan> then a new car audio :D
[20:20] <sheytan> for nice heavy metal music :D
[20:20] <sheytan> then a new phone :D
[20:22] <neversfelde> don't buy a motorola milestone/droid ;)
[20:22] <sheytan> will not. Need HTC sense :D
[20:27] <shadeslayer> sheytan: and after you use Sense, you'll move to CM
[20:29] <neversfelde> what's CM?
[20:30] <sheytan> shadeslayer ^ ? ;d
[20:30] <shadeslayer> CyanogenMod
[20:30] <shadeslayer> its a pure AOSP build .... none of the HTC Shit ontop of it
[20:30] <shadeslayer> neversfelde: cyanogenmod.com
[20:42] <neversfelde> As of current time, CyanogenMod only supports the Verizon Motorola Droid NOT the GSM Motorola Milestone
[20:42] <neversfelde> mhh, why? I ever thought that there are not much differences
[20:42] <neversfelde> anyway my milestone was send back to my isp, broken again
[20:44] <Quintasan> neversfelde: u kidding me? I have CM on my milestone
[20:45] <neversfelde> Quintasan: this is from the official wiki
[20:45] <Quintasan> oh, kabaldan from XDA created a port of CM
[20:46] <Quintasan> it won't be 1.0 until moto releases 2.2.1 which should be apparently released in the upcoming few days since they already sent the instructions about the update
[20:47] <neversfelde> Quintasan: you like your milestone?
[20:47] <Quintasan> Well, yeah
[20:47] <neversfelde> I send mine in two times now, not starting and I never used any mods or something
[20:47] <Quintasan> but now if I could get a HTC phone I would sold it right away
[20:48] <neversfelde> yeah
[20:48] <neversfelde> my bother has a HTC Desire, much better
[21:17] <apachelogger> apparently the n9 is around the corner
[21:17] <apachelogger> with meego
[21:18] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: there is no n9
[21:21] <neversfelde> I read about nokia having a deal with MS, I'm not sure abot meego. Android and iphone OS are leader in the market. Will be hard for Nokia
[21:21] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: not yet
[21:22] <Tm_T> neversfelde: it has never been easy
[21:23] <neversfelde> yes, but Nokia made a mistake with using symbian for such a long time
[21:25] <sheytan> will konversation quit when i hit the close button, or will it hide into message indicator like it does with systray icon?
[21:31] <neversfelde> Riddell: would you have a look at bug 706409
[22:12] <apachelogger> who is up for skping with the markey and yours truely?
[22:14] <neversfelde> no skype here
[22:15]  * shadeslayer is too tired to skype
[22:32] <apachelogger> neversfelde: install then?
[22:33] <neversfelde> apachelogger: I do not use it with kubuntu because I have no working mic and my mobile phone is gone
[22:34] <neversfelde> so no skype today :)
[22:34] <apachelogger> poor neversfelde :(
[22:34] <neversfelde> yes
[22:36] <neversfelde> choqok's message indicator integration is very buggy. I think we should not activate it by default. Not sure if I mentioned it before.
[22:40] <apachelogger> you did
[22:40] <apachelogger> like 3 times
[22:41] <neversfelde> mhh
[22:41] <neversfelde> ok, to be sure. Message indicator support in choqok is broken, we should not activate it by default :D
[22:49] <Quintasan> good new
[22:49] <Quintasan> s
[22:49] <Quintasan> Neon is installable, now let me check if it's runnable :P
[22:58] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Trunk as in trunk.
[23:13] <Quintasan> apachelogger: this is alive
[23:13] <apachelogger> Quintasan: skype
[23:13] <apachelogger> right now
[23:15] <Quintasan> I haz no skypez
[23:15] <Quintasan> more like, I has no microphone
[23:17] <apachelogger> not even built in?
[23:18] <Quintasan> dunno, I can listen only
[23:19] <Quintasan> amarok dailies coming tomorrow
[23:19] <apachelogger> that would be silly
[23:19] <Quintasan> Y so?
[23:19] <apachelogger> what is the point of listening
[23:20] <Quintasan> I can hear your babbering?


[08:27] <d1b>  /win36
[08:27] <head_victim> More like a /fail36 ;)
[09:31] <blahdeblah> d1b: Is that a version of Windows which has an extra 4 bits of address space? :-P
[12:30] <head_victim> Anyone else playing with 12.04 having msn issues with empathy?


[01:06] <molly_millions> I cannot click and drag/select left effectively with my trackpad. Here is the config: # Example xorg.conf.d snippet that assigns the touchpad driver
[01:06] <molly_millions> # to all touchpads. See xorg.conf.d(5) for more information on
[01:06] <molly_millions> # InputClass.
[01:06] <molly_millions> # DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE, your distribution will likely overwrite
[01:06] <molly_millions> # it when updating. Copy (and rename) this file into
[01:52] <n-iCe> Hello guys
[01:58] <ianorlin> n-iCe: any way I can help?
[02:05] <n-iCe> ianorlin: Well, thinking about moving to lubuntu
[02:05] <n-iCe> I am using Arch with fluxbox
[02:13] <n-iCe> this is when you try to convince me to do it
[02:13] <n-iCe> :p
[02:17] <ianorlin> n-iCe: that might be lighter
[02:17] <ianorlin> apt has easier to remeber names than just the single letters of pacman
[02:33] <CoolishPrune_> Hello
[02:33] <CoolishPrune_> I am new to Lubuntu. I have 14.10 installed on a Dell Inspiron B130. I have no problems getting wired connectivity until now. I went to Software and Updates and then over to the Drivers tab and tried to Apply Changes to the WiFi hardware. It seemed like the process fail and I did a reboot and the second time the bar completed but never finished. I gave it about 15 minutes and rebooted again. However, now I cant even connect wi
[02:36] <ianorlin> CoolishPrune_: can you try booting with an old kernel hold down shift at boot if not a dual boot system to get to grub and select advanced optoins for ubuntu
[02:36] <CoolishPrune_> Im trying something out right now that I got from the forums
[02:36] <ianorlin> and select and earlier kernel
[02:36] <CoolishPrune_> Ok let this process over here finish.
[02:37] <CoolishPrune_> im doing sudo apt-get update
[02:37] <CoolishPrune_> with the configure -a
[02:37] <CoolishPrune_> Do I call you Ian or Lin?
[02:37] <CoolishPrune_> lol
[02:38] <ianorlin> !tab
[02:38] <ianorlin> both using that
[02:39] <CoolishPrune_> okay so sudo apt-get dist-upgrade didnt do anything
[02:39] <CoolishPrune_> I dont think its connected to the internet
[02:39] <CoolishPrune_> Im going to try the long command then we will try what u said
[02:40] <CoolishPrune_> Yeah it didnt return any info
[02:41] <kian> ianorlin: what's your idea of configuring display sleep?
[02:41] <CoolishPrune_> I think because im disconnected
[02:41] <ianorlin> kian that depends on what you want
[02:41] <kian> ianorlin: Regardless of my xfce4-power-manager settings the desktop sleeps by itself in a short period of time.
[02:42] <kian> ianorlin: also thank you so much for your help yesterday, everything worked out and it's working beautifully.
[02:42] <CoolishPrune_> Okay Im in GRUB ianorlin
[02:43] <ianorlin> um do you see advanced options for ubuntu
[02:43] <CoolishPrune_> Do I select Ubunto or adv options
[02:43] <ianorlin> advanced options
[02:43] <ianorlin> will bring you to another menu
[02:43] <ianorlin> select an older kernel not recovery mode
[02:43] <CoolishPrune_> 31 31 recovery 23 23 recovery
[02:43] <CoolishPrune_> 31 or 23
[02:43] <CoolishPrune_> 23?
[02:44] <CoolishPrune_> 3.16.0-23
[02:44] <ianorlin> try 23
[02:44] <CoolishPrune_> or 3.16.0-31
[02:44] <CoolishPrune_> ok
[02:44] <ianorlin> I like to update more often as then I won't have to go back as far
[02:44] <ianorlin> and you get secuirty patches but that won't matter for a new install
[02:45] <CoolishPrune_> Ok Im up
[02:45] <CoolishPrune_> it showing disconnected still
[02:45] <CoolishPrune_> and Im plugged into wired
[02:45] <CoolishPrune_> to my router
[02:46] <ianorlin> CoolishPrune_: do you have a live cd dvd or usb ?
[02:46] <ianorlin> try booting into the live session to see if you messed up configuratoin somehow
[02:47] <CoolishPrune_> i have access to dvd/rw's and I have might be able to do usb cable connect and i have a small USB drive
[02:48] <CoolishPrune_> reboot back to normal?
[02:49] <ianorlin> CoolishPrune_: do you have another ethernet cable?
[02:49] <ianorlin> could try that in case of bad cable
[02:49] <ianorlin> CoolishPrune_: you still get internet from the router right
[02:49] <CoolishPrune_> give me a minute
[02:50] <CoolishPrune_> i should
[02:50] <CoolishPrune_> yup got it
[02:50] <CoolishPrune_> Yes I do still have connection form router
[02:50] <CoolishPrune_> this computer is on the same router connection
[02:50] <CoolishPrune_> WiFi
[02:51] <ianorlin> are there any free ethernet ports at back of router maybe try another one
[02:51] <CoolishPrune_> did you want me to reboot lubuntu?
[02:52] <ianorlin> yay try newest kernel again
[02:53] <CoolishPrune_> loading -31
[02:55] <CoolishPrune_> nothing
[02:55] <CoolishPrune_> Should I try adding a connection manually
[02:55] <holstein> i'll try the windows driver, with ndiswrapper, with some hardware that doesnt support linux
[02:56] <CoolishPrune_> Oh wait
[02:57] <CoolishPrune_> it finally came back
[02:57] <CoolishPrune_> not the connection
[02:57] <CoolishPrune_> but in the additional drivers tab
[02:57] <holstein> a broadcom blob you can add? occasionally, there is more than just one
[02:57] <CoolishPrune_> BCM4318 AreForce One 54g 802.11g wireless lan
[02:57] <holstein> these days, i'll just swap the hardware, since, its so much easier than fighting with it
[02:58] <CoolishPrune_> below gives me the choice to use alternate driver
[02:58] <CoolishPrune_> broadcom 802.11 Linux STA wireless driver
[02:58] <ianorlin> ah I have one that works with it unfortanelty
[02:58] <CoolishPrune_> twice ived tried this and it stalls
[02:58] <holstein> yup.. i would try that, and *any* other drivers as well.. also, the windows driver is an option
[02:58] <holstein> !broadcom
[02:58] <ianorlin> that is a 4322 and my moms 4313 worked with it
[02:58] <holstein> ^ that should tell you want driver is "best" and with what compromises
[02:59] <CoolishPrune_> So do I revert or apply changes to the broadcom
[02:59] <ianorlin> you need to be connected for that to work
[02:59] <CoolishPrune_> Oh
[02:59] <CoolishPrune_> Well Why cant i get connectd anymore
[02:59] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: i will literally try *all* options.. and i will get wired so its "easier"
[03:01] <CoolishPrune_> I clciked aplly changes
[03:01] <CoolishPrune_> HDD spinning
[03:02] <CoolishPrune_> ok
[03:02] <CoolishPrune_> it finsihed that time
[03:04] <CoolishPrune_> Still having the same problems
[03:04] <CoolishPrune_> should I revert back?
[03:05] <kian> ianorlin: sleep problems help plssss?
[03:06] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: i dont konw what you "should" do, but, i would try *all* options, including the windows driver via ndiswrapper..
[03:06] <holstein> kian: just ask, and if a volunteer can assist, they will
[03:06] <kian> holstein: will do
[03:07] <kian> Lubuntu fresh install, sleeps after 15 or so minutes, regardless of xfce4-power-manager settings
[03:07] <kian> 14.04.02 lts, 32bit
[03:07] <holstein> kian: you mean, the monitor? or the unit sleeps?
[03:08] <kian> holstein: monitor
[03:09] <holstein> kian: i remove the screensaver..
[03:09] <ianorlin> that works
[03:09] <kian> holstein: how so?
[03:09] <ianorlin> sudo apt-get purge light-locker
[03:10] <CoolishPrune_> ianorlin: reverted, rebooted, still cant get wired connectivty
[03:10] <ianorlin> is one way by the command line or remove light-locker by syanpitic or lubuntu-software-center
[03:10] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: did wired work with the live iso? are you sure the hardware is not broken?
[03:10] <CoolishPrune_> Yeah it was working before i applied changes in software & updates in the dirvers tab
[03:11] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: in that case, i would just boot my older kernel, and file a bug
[03:11] <holstein> !bug
[03:11] <holstein> you shouldnt need a driver for the wired network..
[03:11] <ianorlin> holstein: I guided him to booting older kernel and still didn't work
[03:11] <holstein> i find, *if* my wired network doesnt work, its either a bad NIC, or its just *never* going to work
[03:12] <ianorlin> CoolishPrune_: can you plug your laptop in and make sure not bad cable
[03:12] <holstein> i had one machine that, i had to pull the power cord out, to get the NIC back..
[03:12] <CoolishPrune_> ianorlin: i got a brand new cable right here I will try
[03:12] <CoolishPrune_> ianorlin: i might need to reset the router
[03:13] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: dont try new, try *known* good
[03:13] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: test and see that it is good.. new is unknown.. and can be broken.
[03:13] <CoolishPrune_> I have a ethernet cable tester
[03:13] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: i dont.. i literally see that the device/cord is working, then, i use it
[03:15] <kian> ianorlin: I did that command and it want to remove
[03:15] <kian> lubuntu-desktop
[03:15] <kian> don't I need that...
[03:16] <holstein> kian: thats the meta-package
[03:16] <kian> holstein: pardon?
[03:16] <holstein> !lubuntu-desktop
[03:16] <kian> holstein: http://a.pomf.se/bhysnm.png
[03:16] <holstein> kian: research *exactly* what that package is and does.. know how to revert regardless..
[03:17] <holstein> you should *always* have a backup, not becuase you are removing lubuntu-desktop, but, becuase all hard drives fail..
[03:17] <kian> holstein: that is true
[03:17] <kian> but I'm confused
[03:17] <kian> It's uninstalling all that stuff
[03:17] <kian> if I uninstall then then run auto-remove am i essentially destroying the environment?
[03:17] <holstein> kian: "it" does what you ask
[03:18] <holstein> kian: i dont know what you are destroying, but, if you remove lubuntu-desktop, as stated above its just the meta-package
[03:18] <holstein> kian: if you want to paste the entire output for review, go for it..
[03:18] <holstein> !paste
[03:18] <kian> holstein: I linked a screenshot
[03:19] <holstein> kian: cool.. if you want, paste it where i and the other volunteers can easily review the material, or, know how to revert and just try it yourself..
[03:19] <kian> holstein: http://paste.ubuntu.com/10665982/
[03:20] <CoolishPrune_> ianorlin: changed cable I noticed when I uplugged it the click wasnt acting right
[03:20] <CoolishPrune_> ianorlin: we are go for green now
[03:20] <holstein> kian: light-locker* light-locker-settings* lubuntu-desktop*
[03:20] <holstein> kian: light-locker is what you are removing, and lubuntu-desktop is 'safe to remove'..
[03:20] <kian> as you said lubuntu-desktop is a meta package which is essentially just a "package" that installs all the packages that makeup the desktop environment, no?
[03:20] <kian> holstein: okay now for my own knowledge
[03:21] <kian> All the packages that are after line 5 on that page, are the packages that come with lubuntu-desktop?
[03:21] <holstein> kian: thats not a list of what comes with lubuntu, no
[03:22] <holstein> kian: thats what, as states "is no longer needed".. or considered so..
[03:22] <kian> Right but a lot of that stuff is needed for operation isn't it? xorg for instance, the video players if I want to play videos on the device, etc.
[03:22] <CoolishPrune_> ianorlin: let me reboot into new kernel
[03:22] <holstein> kian: dont remove it, then
[03:22] <kian> So is it possible to just remove light-locker without effecting lubuntu-desktop or any other packages?
[03:22] <holstein> kian: i dont suggest you do.. just those 3 are all you are removing.. light-locker* light-locker-settings* lubuntu-desktop*
[03:23] <kian> Even if not remove to just "disable" it?
[03:23] <holstein> kian: im just saying, i removed the screensaver..
[03:23] <kian> Right and it seems like the solution to my problem.
[03:23] <holstein> kian: i didnt have any issues, or a long list of thigns.. i dont know the history of your system
[03:23] <kian> holstein: there is no history, just an old workstation I plopped behind my TV to use a media machine.
[03:24] <kian> just installed lubuntu yesterday
[03:24] <CoolishPrune_> ianorlin: ??
[03:24] <holstein> then, proceed with no worries, and no that it only took a few minutes to install, and you can easily reinstall.. and you have no data on there
[03:25] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: if you want to reboot into a new kernel, go for it
[03:25] <kian> holstein: mhmmmm I see now.
[03:25] <kian> kinda makes me nervous since I feel like I'll do this and then later on down the line I'll run "apt-get autoremove" and remove all the stuff I did need
[03:26] <kian> which is just me forgetting about what I'm doing today
[03:26] <holstein> dont be nervous.. *all* hard drives fail.. if you have something important, back it up, and plan for that failure..
[03:26] <holstein> by preparing for that, you'll have the freedom to do what you need to do with any system
[03:27] <kian> holstein: it's not so much important just the bother of having to re-install :\
[03:27] <kian> which isn't that much of a bother really just not very fun
[03:27] <holstein> typicaly takes me about 8 minutes to install
[03:27] <kian> holstein: oh also if I remove light-locker
[03:27] <kian> it's just a screen-saver no?
[03:27] <kian> xfce4-power-manager will operate properly?
[03:28] <holstein> kian: "properly" is probably relative
[03:28] <kian> because it seems like it has no say in choosing my display sleep, etc right now
[03:28] <kian> so yes?
[03:28] <holstein> kian: i dont know, its likely relative, and actually, could be different per hardware
[03:29] <holstein> when im learning a new machine and working out its linux support, i typically spend hours and hours with live iso's and different installs, seeing what works "best" and what fits my needs..
[03:30] <CoolishPrune_> holstein: connect on older kernel disconnect on new kernel
[03:30] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: cool.. so, file a bug about your hardware and the newer kernel support for your hardware
[03:30] <holstein> !bug
[03:32] <kian> holstein: gotcha, I just gotta bookmark my hardware stuff and I think i'll be ok in event of harddrive failure
[03:33] <kian> only thing I'm left with now is my predicament with browsers
[03:33] <holstein> web browsers?
[03:33] <holstein> what did you use? just use what you are used to using..
[03:34] <kian> Chromium/Google Chrome HTML5 video performance is much better then Firefox however Firefox uses actual Adobe Flash Player which performs well and Chrome's is using Pepperflash which is awful on this particular desktop with live-streams and video playback.
[03:34] <holstein> there is no flash support for linux from adboe
[03:34] <holstein> adobe*
[03:34] <holstein> http://www.adobe.com/software/flash/about/
[03:34] <kian> "Mozilla, Firefox - NPAPI (Extended Support Release)"
[03:34] <kian> ?
[03:34] <holstein> if using flash is a priority, i suggest the lastest version for chrome
[03:35] <kian> holstein: Yeah I did but Chrome's flash is Pepperflash
[03:35] <kian> this desktop is pretty outdated so it's not holding up too well
[03:35] <holstein> right
[03:35] <holstein> kian: you wont magically install some browser that makes your machine faster
[03:35] <kian> holstein: i wish 😛
[03:35] <kian> woah
[03:36] <holstein> kian: chrome is the "best" option.. that pepper flash.. otherwise, just do what the machine can do
[03:36] <kian> mac autocorrecting to emojis
[03:36] <kian> O_o
[03:36] <kian> holstein: yeah I'll stick to Firefox I guess since Chrome's flash is unbearable with live-streams and video playback on this machine.
[03:37] <CoolishPrune_> holstein: what is the newest package i am running?
[03:37] <holstein> anyways, you are actually *not* having a browser predicament.. thats trying to use things on the internet designed for newer hardare perdicament..
[03:37] <holstein> CoolishPrune_: what is the newser pacakge you are running? i have no idea..
[03:37] <kian> holstein: that's a better way of saying it, yes haha
[03:37] <kian> holstein: I'm sure things would workout much better if the computer wasn't a decade old.
[03:38] <holstein> kian: well, its just good to keep it in perspective, so you are not "frustrated" with a web browser, or linux..
[03:38] <CoolishPrune_> well in order for me to report a bug they want to know thepackage. I have the latest install of lubuntu 14.10
[03:38] <holstein> kian: im not sure of that.. if you have a newer machine that doesnt support linux well, you can have issues as well.
[03:38] <holstein> !bug | CoolishPrune_
[03:39] <kian> holstein: might just buy a more powerful CPU for it
[03:39] <kian> LGA775 socket
[03:40] <holstein> i wouldnt spend any $$ on a 10 year old PC..
[03:41] <kian> holstein: a cool little project maybe
[03:41] <kian> theoretically dropping in any LGA775 would work, no?
[03:41] <kian> Pickup like a used Core 2 Quad and see what happens?
[03:42] <holstein> kian: i have no idea.. try a hardware channel. i personaly wouldnt "waste" any money on that machine.. since, hardware is so resonably priced these days
[03:42] <kian> holstein: very true
[03:42] <holstein> its your hardware.. no one is going to stop you
[03:42] <kian> holstein: this lubuntu build was more of a test-run.
[03:42] <kian> I think I'm going to purchase a NUC to actually use
[03:42] <holstein> nice value PC's..
[03:43] <holstein> those are so cheap, especially now that there is a newer gen of them, i suggest putting any money you want to spend on that PC toward a NUC or something that just ships with linux
[03:43] <kian> holstein: yes it is. I have one upstairs in my office running OS X.
[03:58] <ianorlin> also doesn't 776 draw lots of power kian
[03:58] <ianorlin> I went to get dinner
[03:58] <kian> ianorlin: yeah ultimately not worth it
[03:58] <kian> ianorlin: what'd ya get
[03:59] <ianorlin> fish plate but there is #lubuntu-offtopic for that
[04:00] <kian> oh seriously there's an offtopic as well
[04:00] <kian> ?
[04:00] <ianorlin> yes
[04:32] <CoolishPrune> holstein: u there
[04:32] <holstein> yes, but, just ask, CoolishPrune , if you have a question.. a volunteer will assist, if they can
[04:32] <holstein> no need to specificlaly call out anyone
[04:32] <CoolishPrune> Having troubles syncing wifi
[04:33] <holstein> syncing?
[04:33] <CoolishPrune> but, my cable connect works fine.
[04:33] <holstein> you mean, joining a wifi network?
[04:33] <CoolishPrune> well, connecting to my router, essentially
[04:34] <holstein> !wifi
[04:34] <holstein> i will, again, just try *everything*. making sure all the parts work, with supported drivers in supported operating systems..
[04:39] <CoolishPrune> holstein: when I try sudo ip link set wlan0 up it says cannot find device wlan0 should i go back and try ndiswrapper?
[05:04] <CoolishPrune> ok
[05:04] <CoolishPrune> So I need help installing a wireless network dirver.
[05:07] <Coolishprune_> im here
[05:20] <Coolishprune_> Does encrypting the install slow down the computer much?
[06:05] <CoolishPrune> Ive tried everything that I have been asked to do. Still cant get the wifi going.
[07:30] <lewis1711> anyone running fcitx? Having real difficulty getting it to work. lubuntu doesn't seem to have "gtk-query-immodules" according to the diagnosis tool
[12:55] <melodie> hi
[14:46] <melodie> is there an expert with grub-efi here?
[14:49] <leszek> melodie: just ask and we'll see if someone can help
[14:50] <melodie> hi leszek
[14:50] <melodie> I'll see, some people have answered to me elsewhere
[14:51] <leszek> :)
[14:57] <melodie> leszek I have to ask the #ubuntu-installer people if I have hit a bug, because there is no Grub choice at boot after installing
[14:59] <leszek> ah 14.04 or 14.10 ?
[17:46] <vervoid> Hi I have a problem with wireless in lubuntu
[17:46] <ianorlin> !details |vervoid
[17:46] <vervoid> The first few websites load fast, but the others load forever
[17:47] <vervoid> I have an Intel wifilink 5100 agn card
[17:47] <vervoid> I'm using lxde
[17:47] <ianorlin> which release
[17:47] <vervoid> The newest
[17:48] <vervoid> I think 14.10
[17:48] <ianorlin> 14.10 ok is this a new install or had it been working before
[17:49] <vervoid> Entirely new install, but I had this problem with Debian, Ubuntu and normal lubuntu
[17:49] <ianorlin> can you run lspci and show me informatoin about that card
[17:49] <vervoid> I've already tried the "solutions " on various forums
[17:50] <vervoid> Disabling wireless n
[17:50] <vervoid> Installing another driver
[17:50] <vervoid> But none seem to work for long
[17:51] <vervoid> Disabling wireless n worked for about a day with Ubuntu
[17:52] <AndChat|54704> My Internet died, sorry
[17:52] <AndChat|54704> I'm vervoid
[17:52] <AndChat|54704> Did anyone reply?
[17:55] <AndChat|54704> Regarding my problem?
[18:53] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, never seen this problem. i have 5 computers which are all running lubuntu 14.04
[18:53] <AndChat-54704> Well unfortunately I have it
[18:53] <ianorlin> gebjgd: I think this is hardware dependent
[18:56] <AndChat-54704> It's a Lenovo thinkpad t400
[18:56] <AndChat-54704> The card is known to be problematic
[18:56] <AndChat-54704> But I tried the answers, but none worked for long
[18:58] <AndChat-54704> What worked for a while was disabling wireless n
[18:59] <AndChat-54704> The strange thing is, Internet was working correctly in Ubuntu 13, but stopped after upgrade to 14, and now when I install Ubuntu 13 or even 12 it has the same problem
[19:01] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, ok, i have here thinkpad t410s
[19:01] <AndChat-54704> Is the Internet working on it?
[19:02] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, 03:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Centrino Advanced-N 6200 (rev 35)
[19:02] <ianorlin> AndChat-54704: try a different kenrel maybe?
[19:02] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, i am using it with lubuntu chating with you
[19:02] <AndChat-54704> I have an Intel wifilink 5100 agn
[19:02] <AndChat-54704> How do I change kernel?
[19:03] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, or. you can buy another usb wlan card
[19:03] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, or maybe that is the problem with your router
[19:03] <AndChat-54704> And how can I change the kernel? And which one should I use?
[19:03] <AndChat-54704> I don't think it's the router
[19:04] <AndChat-54704> Because it was working perfectly until the update
[19:05] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, but if you switch back to the old version, will it still work?
[19:05] <AndChat-54704> No
[19:05] <AndChat-54704> And with basically any distribution
[19:06] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, maybe it is broken
[19:06] <AndChat-54704> Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, lubuntu, crunchbsng
[19:06] <AndChat-54704> None work
[19:06] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, better to buy a usb wlan card
[19:06] <AndChat-54704> Ok thanks
[19:08] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FEfMKg8TL._SY300_.jpg
[19:08] <gebjgd> AndChat-54704, this one is really good. i can use it directly on my raspi
[19:09] <AndChat-54704> Thanks!
[23:15] <kian> Guys running with some issues here, hung out yesterday and asked about the computer going to sleep by itself all the time.
[23:15] <kian> Uninstalled light-locker and quit running xfce4-power-manager, still goes to sleep.


[07:11] <jam> So the reason some charms end up with '-k8s' in the name, is because in the current charm store, you can't have the same name for different purposes.
[07:11] <jam> (k8s vs normal iaas charms)
[07:12] <jam> The intent with the new charm store was to leverage a field like Arch to allow you to 'juju deploy mysql' which if you are in a k8s model is a different charm than if you are in a AWS model.
[07:12] <jam> So the goal is to get rid of -k8s, but it is a necessary wart today.
[07:13] <jam> thanks for the update Dmitrii-Sh . You really should sleep earlier. :)
[07:14] <Dmitrii-Sh> jam: you're right
[07:15] <Dmitrii-Sh> jam: regarding the charms, one thing I noticed is that VIPs make functional testing harder
[07:15] <Dmitrii-Sh> there is an expectation that something will be pre-allocated and is not modeled as an abstraction
[07:16] <jam> Dmitrii-Sh, we talked in Juju about having a way for a charm to say "get me another IP from the provider" which it would then use for its purpose.
[07:16] <jam> In practice, it was just a testing thing, because all the charms that have VIP end up assigning real meaning to them in the rest of the system
[07:16] <jam> so an arbitrary value wasn't good enough.
[07:17] <jam> They *cared* that it was <IP_ADDRESS> because that was the firewall rule that they set in the some other system.
[07:18] <Dmitrii-Sh> I agree, in all cases I've seen so far it was the case. Plus there was a domain name associated with that vip
[07:20] <Dmitrii-Sh> jam: w.r.t https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/193, instead of inheriting in ops/testing.py I could recreate the same type with a different name and __bases__ and __dict__ preserved
[07:20] <Dmitrii-Sh> that wouldn't help with mutable class attributes though
[07:21] <Dmitrii-Sh> (inheritance doesn't help either so it's not better or worse in a sense)
[07:21] <jam> Dmitrii-Sh, it sounds like we're doing something bad with SavedState if we can't subclass a type that has it and have it work.
[07:21] <jam> Dmitrii-Sh, that said, we'd rather not subclass and just fix the attr thing to change attrs on the instance rather than the class
[07:41] <Dmitrii-Sh> jam: so far we have .on, .state (or whichever other name a dev picks) and .handle_kind as class attributes. define_event works with types that inherit from EventSetBase so define_event would have to be done for every instance of a type that inherits from EventSetBase.
[07:41] <Dmitrii-Sh> Do you have any ideas on where that binding to instances would take place?
[07:45] <jam> Dmitrii-Sh, I haven't worked out exactly how it would hold together. Maybe EventSetBase.
[07:46] <jam> We could do something like CharmBase.__init__, but I don't think we want people to have to re implement that for every thing they want to create that emits events.
[08:29]  * jam lunches
[08:29] <Chipaca> gooood (belated) morning peeps!
[08:30] <niemeyer> Gutten Morgen
[08:37] <Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: https://trello.com/c/mc1YggOd/9-top-10-15-charms-in-op-fmk there is a card to identify top 15 charms to be written in the operator framework. I wrote down the ones that I think would we worthwhile to consider based on the charm store stats.
[08:37] <Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: nice
[08:38] <Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: missing two inputs into that: what field thinks is hawt-and-upcoming, and any special requests :-)
[08:39] <Chipaca> also, where are my glasses
[08:39] <Dmitrii-Sh> The most popular ones in the store are the OpenStack charms but I excluded most of them (except for rabbitmq, mysql and hacluster).
[08:39] <Chipaca> 👍
[08:39] <Chipaca> thank you
[08:40] <Dmitrii-Sh> mysql is one of the charms that OpenStack eng recently rewrote in reactive so I am not sure if we need to rewrite it yet again as a first candidate
[08:42] <Chipaca> :-) no need to start there, indeed
[08:42] <Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: as for input from the field, I can go and ask them in their channel. I know that Arno was keen on having OSM k8s charms in the new framework.
[08:42] <Dmitrii-Sh> I am sure they'd appreciate better landscape charms
[08:43] <Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: ask them for a top 5 (and make it clear it's not a promise)
[08:43] <Dmitrii-Sh> ok
[08:54] <jam> Chipaca, can you see the message above about -k8s ? I can repeat it if you cannot
[08:55] <Chipaca> jam: not with this account, could you repeat?
 So the reason some charms end up with '-k8s' in the name, is because in the current charm store, you can't have the same name for different purposes.
 (k8s vs normal iaas charms)
 The intent with the new charm store was to leverage a field like Arch to allow you to 'juju deploy mysql' which if you are in a k8s model is a different charm than if you are in a AWS model.
 So the goal is to get rid of -k8s, but it is a necessary wart today.
[08:56] <Chipaca> jam: yep
[08:56] <Chipaca> jam: but we're not getting platform for a while yet
[08:56] <Chipaca> jam: also, also
[08:56] <Chipaca> jam: i understand it's often the case that the k8s charm and the non-k8s charm is frequently authored by different teams
[08:57] <Chipaca> jam: in that case, -k8s in the name will continue to be a thing
[08:57] <jam> Chipaca, indeed. I'm just pointing that -k8s feels like a wart, when you look at "kubectl get all" and see a bunch of foo-k8s-operator objects.
[08:57] <Chipaca> or as per gustavo's idea yesterday <foo>-k8s-operator
[08:58] <Chipaca> jam: that is fair. There is nothing in the store's roadmap to fix that wart though.
[09:00] <niemeyer> My idea was -operator, to be fair :)
[09:01] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Not sure I get the relationship between that wart and the store?  How's that a wart in the store?
[09:02] <Chipaca> niemeyer: the wart can only be fixed by store-side work
[09:02] <niemeyer> That's what I understood the statement to mean, but I don't get what that's actually referring to
[09:03] <Chipaca> niemeyer: ownership is by name, you can't have different owners for different platforms under a single name
[09:04] <niemeyer> Chipaca: We do have delegation in the roadmap, and that seems like an aside.. we have support for independent channels for different architectures, and will have for different platforms as well
[09:07] <Chipaca> niemeyer: where is delegation in the roadmap? (is this what delegation is? seems a strange name for it)
[09:07] <Chipaca> niemeyer: i don't understand what you mean by it being an aside
[09:08] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Delegation of authority
[09:08] <Chipaca> in on-prem enterprise stores, yes
[09:08] <Chipaca> that does not sound like this
[09:09] <niemeyer> Chipaca: It's an aside in the sense that when it becomes an issue we can prioritize the work.. the critical piece of that work is that we need to support orthogonal channels for orthogonal platforms, and that's part of the design right now
[09:09] <niemeyer> Chipaca: It'll be an excellent problem to have when entirely different authors are fighting to maintain the same charm in different platforms
[09:10] <Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: I sent an e-mail to their list (CC-ed) and a message to their channel soliciting some feedback. Hopefully we can get some stats out of that.
[09:10] <Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: thank you
[09:16] <jam> https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/196 pulls out some of the stuff from my test_model.py patch, as the Harness changes were relevant for interface-pgsql
[09:18] <Chipaca> jam: did you see i tagged you on issue #193?
[09:18] <jam> Chipaca, yeah. Dmitrii-Sh and I were chatting about it earlier.
[09:18] <Chipaca> ah ok
[09:19] <jam> We can change how we create the class, but it feels like we're doing something wrong if you can subclass something that has state.
[09:19] <jam> that said, we'd rather not subclass if we can change how the accessors are done.
[09:20] <niemeyer> How to subclass something that does _not_ have state?  Isn't a class without state basically a function? :)
[09:21] <jam> niemeyer, if you do class MyClass: state = StoredState(); having class NewClass(MyClass): will break.
[09:21] <jam> at least, that is how I read https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/193
[09:21] <niemeyer> Should we fix that?
[09:22] <jam> yes. my argument was we should fix that regardless, even if we don't want to create a subclass for testing.
[09:22] <niemeyer> I'm not suggesting we should encourage subclassing of everything, but it sounds like a slightly awkward hard constraint
[09:22] <niemeyer> Yeah, same
[09:22] <Chipaca> will make writing components as mixins hard for example :)
[09:23] <niemeyer> It just feels like it's an artificial constraint.. we never considered it an intended limitation
[09:24] <niemeyer> We can discuss when and whether mixins/subclassing/etc make sense, but right now we can't
[09:25] <niemeyer> It's probably an easy fix as well.. did you look into it jam?
[09:26] <Chipaca> StoredState is gnarly, undocumented code
[09:26] <Chipaca> is the attr_name thing it's doing just doing what we do with set_name elsewhere?
[09:26] <niemeyer> It is indeed.. it exists so that people can not worry about that sort of thing
[09:27] <jam> I haven't looked deep into it yet.
[09:29] <Chipaca> I'll see if I can't make the code a bit clearer, unless you're already looking at it
[09:29] <jam> I'm not right now. looking at interface-pgsql currently
[09:31] <Chipaca> 👍
[09:40] <Chipaca> niemeyer: so the intent is for any class to be able to have a stored state, even if it doesn't inherit from Object?
[09:41] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Object is not as important as it looks like for the framework.. logic generally check for what they need, not for inheritance
[09:42] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Object is there for developer convenience
[09:42] <Chipaca> niemeyer: so it doesn't have to Object, but it does have to look like Object
[09:43] <niemeyer> Chipaca: If that was the intention then we'd check for inheritance
[09:43] <niemeyer> Chipaca: The point being that Object may "look like" things that we don't care about
[09:44] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Makes sense?
[09:44] <Chipaca> it's duck typing, but without being explicit about what's needed
[09:45] <Chipaca> no it does not make sense :)
[09:45] <Chipaca> currently if you just try to use StoredState like this,
[09:45] <Chipaca> class MyC:  stored = StoredState()
[09:45] <Chipaca> and then do  c = MyC(); c.foo = 42
[09:46] <Chipaca> it fails, because it tried to call register_type on a 'framework' attribute
[09:46] <niemeyer> Chipaca: If class C1 depends on attribute A1 and A2, and class C2 offers A1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7..  does class C1 depend on how class C2 looks like, or depends on A1 and A2??
[09:46] <Chipaca> niemeyer: if class C1 does not document what it expects of the things it's usually used with, and fails in obscure ways as soon as you try to use it outside of that, it might as well depend on every detail of the implementation
[09:47] <niemeyer> Chipaca: If the water is dirty, do you throw the baby out too?
[09:47] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Or do you document the baby and clean it up?
[09:48] <Chipaca> why are you talking to me like this last thing isn't _EXACTLY_ why i started asking the question, dammit
[09:48] <niemeyer> Chipaca: I'll wait until you relax so we can continue the conversation..
[09:48]  * niemeyer steps out and sips some mate..
[11:08] <facubatista> Muy buenos días a todos!
[11:15] <facubatista> Dmitrii-Sh, hola! question about gh#193, you say that "having a state attribute on a charm currently raises an exception."... that means that if you have a real charm class, with a class attribute `state = StoredState()`, it will crash?
[11:18] <facubatista> Ah, I see now that that conversation continued later
[11:18]  * facubatista keeps reading
[11:23] <Dmitrii-Sh> facubatista: yes, pretty much
[11:24] <facubatista> Dmitrii-Sh, sounds to something we should allow to be tested, not something that should be worked around
[11:24] <facubatista> Dmitrii-Sh, otherwise we're giving the signal to developers that is a bad idiom of the charm
[11:24] <facubatista> jam, ^
[11:25] <jam> facubatista, that seems to be the consensus. The specific issue is that testing.Harness uses a subclass, which turns out to break.
[11:25] <jam> and we don't really want to use a subclass for testing, but we also don't want to break if someone does subclass.
[11:26] <facubatista> jam, perfect, thanks
[11:31] <Dmitrii-Sh> Sorry for lagging - had a call with David from the OSM team.
[11:31] <Dmitrii-Sh> Yes this is definitely something we need to have built-in. All of my current charms use state in some way at the moment, for example.
[11:35] <jam> Dmitrii-Sh, yeah, the component I'm testing uses state, but isn't a complete charm, so I hadn't run into it yet.
[11:36] <jam> The 'charm' I'm interacting with is just CharmBase, and then I use that to fire events into my component.
[11:38] <facubatista> niemeyer, I tried to build a simple class that uses StoredState... I end up depending on having a Framework... yes, Object is not that important per se, but this "implicit framework needed floating around" is what makes me incomfortable in some situations
[11:38] <facubatista> Not saying we should change that, but maybe we could improve something about it
[11:38] <facubatista> for example:
[11:38] <facubatista> class DBLoggerInterface(Object):
[11:38] <facubatista>     def __init__(self, charm, name):
[11:38] <facubatista>         super().__init__(charm, name)
[11:39] <facubatista> Having to call Object with the `charm` looks arbitrary
[11:40] <facubatista> and that's only because "or the parent is the framework, or the parent has a framework"
[11:44] <facubatista> so, it looks like the rule is "there must be a framework floating around for everything" (which is fine, this is the operator framework), but "it's not really floating around, everybody should have it", maybe we need to make that more explicit
[11:45]  * facubatista is just thinking out loud, doesn't have a concrete proposal
[11:57] <niemeyer> facubatista: Let's cover that in the standup in a bit.. first thing we need to figure out is why specifically subclassing was breaking down. This is unrelated to what is passed in or whether the object has a framework or not. If the base class worked, the subclass should work too, right?
[11:58] <facubatista> niemeyer, absolutely, that's out the question for me; subclassing must work
[12:16] <Dmitrii-Sh> The attribute lookup (https://git.io/Jv5uv) is performed in a __dict__ of the type that is supposed to hold the StoredState attribute. When we subclass the type that holds '.state = StoredState()', the new type no longer holds '.state' attribute in its __dict__ (its parent type does).
[12:17] <Dmitrii-Sh> what I have in the pdb output in the bug:
[12:17] <Dmitrii-Sh> (Pdb++) parent_type.__dict__.items()
[12:17] <Dmitrii-Sh> dict_items([('__module__', 'ops.testing'), ('on', <ops.testing.Harness.begin.<locals>.TestEvents object at 0x7f935be611f0>), ('__doc__', None)])
[12:17] <Dmitrii-Sh> (Pdb++) parent_type.__bases__[0].__dict__.items()
[12:17] <Dmitrii-Sh> dict_items([('__module__', 'src.charm'), ('state', <ops.framework.StoredState object at 0x7f935c486400>), ('HAPROXY_ENV_FILE', PosixPath('/etc/default/haproxy')), ('__init__', <function HaproxyCharm.__init__ at 0x7f935c06faf0>), ('on_install', <function HaproxyCharm.on_install at 0x7f935befc160>), ('on_start', <function HaproxyCharm.on_start at
[12:17] <Dmitrii-Sh> 0x7f935befc1f0>), ('on_stop', <function HaproxyCharm.on_stop at 0x7f935befc280>), ('on_config_changed', <function HaproxyCharm.on_config_changed at 0x7f935befc310>), ('on_backends_changed', <function HaproxyCharm.on_backends_changed at 0x7f935befc3a0>), ('__doc__', None)])
[12:25] <jam> Dmitrii-Sh, then could we just do getattr(obj) instead of __dict__ ?
[12:26] <jam> or if we're intentionally avoiding __get tricks, then object.__get_attribute__ ?
[12:28] <Dmitrii-Sh> going to try that now
[12:32] <Dmitrii-Sh> hmm, self.attr_name can be None
[12:37] <Dmitrii-Sh> jam: the first __get__ that will be run is going to have self.attr_name == None
[12:38] <Dmitrii-Sh> and then the for loop will be invoked to look up an attribute name by an attribute value
[12:38] <Dmitrii-Sh> so we also need to take care of this: `parent_type.__dict__.items()`
[12:44] <Dmitrii-Sh> jam: e.g. `for attr_name, attr_value in inspect.getmembers(parent_type): ...`
[12:45] <niemeyer> Folks, we don't need to *all* be working on the exact same issue
[12:53] <jam> afaict Dmitrii is the only one actively coding, I'm giving feedback on how I think it could work.
[13:03] <Dmitrii-Sh> using getmembers leads to an infinite recursion in some framework test cases so I'll need to explore more
[13:10] <jam> so for things that do getattr hacks (as we tend to do here), you can often use object.__getattribute__(member) to avoid the classes' __get function (IIRC).
[13:12] <facubatista> jam, these methods not implemented in the testing, e.g.
[13:12] <facubatista>     def storage_list(self, name):
[13:12] <facubatista>         raise NotImplementedError(self.storage_list)
[13:12] <facubatista> jam, should be implemented by whom? where self.storage_list should come from?
[13:13] <jam> facubatista, they are part of the ModelBackend, and should be implemented in the Harness, just didn't get to the full interface
[13:13] <jam> sorry, should  be implemented in _TestModelBackend, I had NotImplementedError there for us to know what things to add.
[13:14] <facubatista> ah, for the future we should have a comment there (ideally, with name and date, like: XXX 2020-03-25 jam: need to implement this in future branches)
[13:14] <facubatista> jam, do we have an issue open or a trello card to track this missing work?
[13:14] <jam> not that I'm aware of.
[13:15] <facubatista> jam, we should, otherwise we'll forget about it
[13:15] <facubatista> jam, would you please? thanks!
[13:16]  * facubatista is not really sure if in English that "would you please" is like in Spanish having it implicitly the "take care of", or sounds harsh -- if it sounded bad, was not my intention
[13:17] <jam> facubatista, no, it is a genuine gentle request.
[13:17] <facubatista> thanks
[13:17] <jam> or at least I interpreted it as such. (probably you could do it otherwise :)
[13:20] <Dmitrii-Sh> Created draft PRs for the charms I have at the moment: https://github.com/canonical/cockroachdb-operator/pull/1 https://github.com/canonical/keepalived-vrrp-operator/pull/1 https://github.com/canonical/haproxy-operator/pull/1
[13:20] <Dmitrii-Sh> the repositories under canonical are empty except the license file
[14:03]  * facubatista brb
[14:09] <karimsye> I am rewriting the charmed-osm/mariadb-k8s charm with the operator framework and I am having some trouble providing the mysql relation and relation data.
[14:10] <karimsye> Dmitrii-Sh: I tried to implement it by following the gitlab-k8s example but couldn't get it to work.
[14:14] <Dmitrii-Sh> karimsye: I am up for a call to give you some guidance if you have time
[14:14]  * jam eod
[14:21] <facubatista> karimsye, can you pastebin what you currently have? thanks!
[14:26] <karimsye> Dmitrii-Sh: ok thanks. I have to run an errand, I should be back in about 15 minutes
[14:26] <Dmitrii-Sh> karimsye: ok, sgtm
[14:26] <Dmitrii-Sh> I'll wait
[14:59] <karimsye> Dmitrii-Sh: https://meet.google.com/uck-qvcz-aoq
[15:01] <Dmitrii-Sh> karimsye: 2 min, need to send an e-mail
[15:01] <karimsye> Dmitrii-Sh: np, I am trying to setup my environment as well
[15:06] <karimsye> facubatista: the git repo for my charm (the files in src are not the latest) - https://github.com/SMAK1993/charmed-osm-mariadb-k8s
[15:06] <karimsye> facubatista: my latest src/charm.py - https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/R8sKN7FWW3/
[15:07] <karimsye> facubatista: another file being used src/interface_mysql_provides.py - https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/ZCVP43qBcV/
[15:07] <karimsye> interface_mysql_provides.py is my version of https://github.com/johnsca/interface-http/blob/master/interface_http.py
[15:08] <karimsye> but trying to implement the mysql interface/relation
[15:10] <facubatista> karimsye, reading it
[15:10] <karimsye> thanks
[15:13] <karimsye> facubatista: in charm.py the class MariaDbProvides at the bottom was my attempt to imitate https://github.com/tvansteenburgh/charm-kine/blob/master/lib/charm.py. The current charm.py isnt using it but when I tried to use it in a similar manner to the charm-kine example, I wasn't able to successfully relate to cs:~charmed-osm/keystone-k8s
[15:15] <facubatista> karimsye, let me understand better the behaviour you're NOT getting... if you deploy this code, where is the problem, or when the problem arises? or you didn't get to deploy it yet?
[15:17] <karimsye> facubatista: I deployed it and the error I got was:
[15:17] <karimsye> https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/TDZD7yhNMq/
[15:18] <karimsye> basically EventBase does not inherit from Object
[15:20]  * facubatista checks the error
[15:26] <Dmitrii-Sh> facubatista: on a call with karimsye and Narinder now
[15:26] <facubatista> karimsye, ok, the code looks good AFAIC (by just looking it) for everything related hooking the charm and the interface together and have stuff flying around
[15:26] <facubatista> going in
[15:26] <Dmitrii-Sh> events are not Objects themselves so there's an issue in using shortcuts
[15:30] <niemeyer> facubatista was going to look into this.. we should be able to make this work as well
[15:32] <Chipaca> niemeyer: do you have a moment to go over StoredState?
[15:38] <niemeyer> I do in about an hour or so
[15:38] <Chipaca> niemeyer: works for me
[15:52] <facubatista> niemeyer, regarding the "having shortcuts in events" I never got a conclusion, got lost in the code, I can hit another round to it
[15:53] <facubatista> niemeyer, regarding current problem, was something else, really, funnily we could locate it after applying a patch from this branch https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/195/files
[16:06] <Chipaca> facubatista: ping?
[16:11] <facubatista> Chipaca, pong
[16:11] <Chipaca> facubatista: meet plz
[16:36] <Chipaca> hmm
[16:36] <Chipaca> niemeyer: not sure if you saw my ping, or if you replied
[16:36] <facubatista> Chipaca, nothing from you since the "meet plz" to me and your "hmm"
[16:36] <Chipaca> something seriously wrong with my thunderbolt ethernet thing
[16:36] <Chipaca> facubatista: ack, thanks
[16:36] <Chipaca> niemeyer: ping :)
[16:37] <Chipaca> nice tracebacks in dmesg
[16:42] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Just grabbing a cuppa and will be with you
[16:43] <Chipaca> augh, machine is now all weird
[16:43] <Chipaca> rebooting, bbiab
[16:46] <niemeyer> > niemeyer: not sure if you saw my ping, or if you replied
[16:46] <niemeyer> Chipaca: There was no ping here, FWIW
[16:46] <Chipaca> niemeyer: yep, facu told me so (so then i pung)
[16:47] <niemeyer> Chipaca: I'm ready when you are
[16:47] <Chipaca> now back, without the thunderbolt ethernet
[16:47] <Chipaca> niemeyer: standup meet work for you?
[16:47] <niemeyer> Yeah
[16:47] <Chipaca> ok
[17:01] <Dmitrii-Sh> facubatista: alright, I am done with the call. For the purposes of this charm, storing their names is enough.
[17:02] <facubatista> Dmitrii-Sh, wonderful!
[17:02] <facubatista> Dmitrii-Sh, I wonder about the other code, though, that was storing the apps
[17:03] <Dmitrii-Sh> the idea there is that .serve needs to be called once per relation-id
[17:03] <Dmitrii-Sh> Cory's original code did it by storing app names
[17:04] <Dmitrii-Sh> so if you've seen an app already, you don't need to write relation data to your own unit's data bag multiple times
[17:04] <Dmitrii-Sh> it is an idempotent operation which doesn't generate new -changed events for remote units if there are no data changes but this code seems to be avoiding extra relation-set calls
[17:18] <karimsye> Dmitrii-Sh, facubatista thanks again!
[17:18] <facubatista> karimsye, anytime!
[17:29] <Chipaca> niemeyer: I need to go make dinner, but thought I'd point you at this before going
[17:29] <Chipaca> https://github.com/canonical/operator/compare/master...chipaca:heritage#diff-6753f94ec7178cc8798db3ae94d35100R1255
[17:30] <Chipaca> need to figure out what's going on, but if I uncomment that line, the test suite hangs
[17:30] <Chipaca> that's generally considered a bad thing
[18:10] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Test is creating a framework at the end without closing it
[18:10] <niemeyer> Chipaca: It must be hanging while opening the next framework, waiting for the former one to go away
[19:30] <Chipaca> niemeyer: THANK YOU, that was it
[20:07] <Chipaca> i think we should split the stored state out into its own file; it deserves its own book in the docs :)
[20:10] <Chipaca> EOD here
[20:44] <Chipaca> supermarket has changed its timetable, so that was a waste of time. I'll have to go tomorrow morning early.
[20:49] <facubatista> jam, there I commented on #196
[20:51] <facubatista> jam, beyond that, we need to talk about _TestingModelBackend... some of its private structures (_relation_ids_map, _relation_names, _relation_list_map, _relation_data) are being used/changed from *outside* the class
[20:51] <facubatista> jam, that could potentially lead to incongruences from those structures (like, a relation id being in _relation_ids_map but not in _relation_data) that would lead to super subtle bugs in the future
[20:52] <facubatista> jam, it's kind of fine to have several structures to access the same "data corpus", but we need to ensure consistency
[20:52] <facubatista> jam, anyway, let's talk on Thursday
[20:52] <facubatista> (I'm off tomorrow)
[20:53] <facubatista> so! see you all on Thursday!
[20:53]  * facubatista eods