I am Charles Profitt and the current lead of the Ubuntu Forums Beginners Team Education Focus Group. I am here today to shed some light on a new project just in the seedling phase.
[00:02] <cprofitt> the LP page is at - https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning
[00:03] <cprofitt> We would like to eventually build a site comparable to - http://tinyurl.com/dm6y8p - with people being able to come to the site for free 'courses' that help them learn how to use Ubuntu and the applications that come with Ubuntu. That teach them how to contribute to the community - wiki, doc team, translations, etc. That help them become developers that contribute to Ubuntu. To do this we will work with existing material as well as c
[00:03] <cprofitt> reate new material. brainbench.com also has some examples of what I am talking about.
[00:03] <cprofitt> I would like to take some time to explain what we are going to do to 'augment' the existing material.
[00:03] <cprofitt> Moodle allows for courses to be built that have 'activities' including: quizzes, lessons, glossaries, surveys and other components that make it more similar to what you would have in an on-line course.
[00:04] <cprofitt> Moodle is considered a Learning Management System
[00:04] <cprofitt> and the team evaluated several options before choosing Moodle
[00:04] <cprofitt> If you would like to learn more about Moodle you can go to their site - http://moodle.org/
[00:05] <cprofitt> For an anology - existing material is like the text book. Moodle adds exercises that ask people to put the knowledge gained from the material in to practice. It also adds the ability for people to self-evaluate. Unlike school there are no grades planned. It also allows an 'instructor' to decide which material should be covered first through last; to make sure the student builds on material piece by piece.
[00:05]  * cprofitt smiles
[00:05] <cprofitt> The plan is to provide self-paced courses that allow users to go through the material themselves and to provide instructor lead courses that will have scheduled meeting times (using #ubuntu-classroom) and an instructor that will host question and answer time.
[00:07] <cprofitt> There is a great deal of very valuable content that is 'out there' in the form of wiki how-tos, forum guides, help articles, etc...
[00:07] <cprofitt> and this project aims to make use of those in 'building' a course.
[00:08] <cprofitt> the team includes pleia2 from the classroom project
[00:08]  * pleia2 waves
[00:08] <cprofitt> and we have also spoken to Canonical and gotten approval to use learn.ubuntu.com as the site URL
[00:08] <st33med> yay
[00:09] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, will be hosting a server that the URL will be pointed at
[00:09] <cprofitt> From our conversations with Billy Cina and dinda the sabdfl is aware of and excited about the project.
[00:10] <cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: will this be self-hosted, or be using the moodlerooms service?
[00:10] <cprofitt> this will be hosted by bodhi_zazen who has purchased the server with his own funds
[00:11] <cprofitt> txwikinger, we are looking for people who want to contribute... we have not determined the process for that yet
[00:11] <cprofitt> We still have to work through licensing discussions though we are in the realm of CC - its just a matter of which one
[00:11] <bodhi_zazen> setting up server now :)
[00:12] <cprofitt> There are two sets of goals
[00:12] <cprofitt> 1)  Build a community based learning platform / set of courseware that will allow organizations to move forward with adoption Uubntu
[00:13] <cprofitt> 2)  Assist individual motivate users to become contributors to the community
[00:13] <cprofitt> zhurai> QUESTION: for:  " that will have scheduled meeting times (using #ubuntu-classroom) ", would those be logged too (just as this OpenWeek's #ubuntu-classroom logs are put into those pages)?
[00:13] <cprofitt> Yes, the instructor lead courses that use #ubuntu-classroom would be logged
[00:13] <cprofitt> and the logs added to the course record
 QUESTION:  have you had any success in working with the doc team?  they are looking at ways to improve new member training/mentoring.
[00:14] <cprofitt> from my understanding dinda we have... though I am not 100% on the level of involvement currently
[00:14] <cprofitt> the Doc team will be an integral part of the project... of that much I am sure
[00:14] <cprofitt> greg-g> cprofitt_monitor: if you have any questions regarding CC licensing, I can answer them for you.  I currently work for CC.
[00:14] <dinda>  I see DougieRichardson is on your membership list - that is a good start
[00:15]  * cprofitt writes down his greg-g's name
[00:15] <greg-g> :)
[00:15] <cprofitt> The issue with CC greg-g is we are unsure of what level of restriction we want...
[00:16] <cprofitt> Do we want to limit a training center from charging for an on-site course using our material or not?
[00:16] <cprofitt> Can a school district or company use the training material internally...
[00:17] <greg-g> all valid questions, and I can relate experiences from others who have done similar things.
 cprofitt: Have you heard about the Mozilla Education (http://education.mozilla.org) or Teaching Open Source (http://teachingopensource.com/) projects? Although they're more focused on "Open Source as curriculum" I think that there is some overlap in the projects.
[00:17] <cprofitt> I had not heard of those... so I will take a hard long look at them
[00:17]  * cprofitt thanks for those resources
[00:18] <cprofitt> st33med> QUESTION: Wouldn't it be better for the instructors to choose the licensing?
[00:18] <cprofitt> I do not think so. I do not want there to be confusion over what courseware is offered through the project
[00:18] <st33med> Probably GNU compliant?
[00:19] <cprofitt> I would think that having a sep. CC license for each course would cause confusion...
[00:19] <cprofitt> while that may make some contributors shy away, I would hope not.
[00:20] <thewrath> one license (sp) for everything less confusion i beleive
[00:21] <cprofitt> QUESTION:  where are the next meetings listed?  is there a wiki page for the group?
[00:21] <cprofitt> The wiki page will be created over the next few days...
[00:21] <cprofitt> there is a beginning on the page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[00:22] <cprofitt> on the topic of the doc team Vantrax just told me the following
[00:22] <cprofitt> Vantrax> ive been speaking with dougie, most of the doc team isnt interested, but enough are to make it work
[00:22] <cprofitt> the next meeting is scheduled for May 2nd (this weekend)
[00:22] <cprofitt> at 21:00 UTC I believe
[00:22] <Vantrax> Hi all, sorry I havent been around to give more info
[00:24] <Vantrax> cprofitt, yep
[00:26] <cprofitt> Yes, SCROM and LAMS are the two formats that Moodle uses other than Moodle itself.
[00:26] <cprofitt> We are currently only looking at SCORM to my knowledge
[00:27] <Vantrax> SCORM is the standard being pushed by the US government as a standard but no decisions have been made at that level yet. Any informed opinions would be welcome.
[00:27] <cprofitt> Any other questions?
[00:28] <juan_marquez> buenas
[00:30] <cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: how do you get a reasonable cohort on a self-paced course?
[00:30] <cprofitt> cohort... is not a word I am familiar with in this context... I only know Roman legion cohorts...
[00:30] <cprofitt> could you expand on that term?
[00:30] <pwnguin> i think it means the student body
[00:30] <pwnguin> ie your peers
[00:30] <cprofitt> ok...
[00:30] <Vantrax> its more a university term
[00:31] <pwnguin> people you can bounce ideas off of
[00:31] <cprofitt> with a self-paced you would not really have a concurrent group of students... you may or may not...
[00:31] <cprofitt> the instructor lead courses would have a defined start and end time for the course
[00:32] <cprofitt> dinda> QUESTION:  can you post the link to the Forums  Beginners Team?
[00:32] <Vantrax> At this stage the plan is to have IRC time available either scheduled or as required depending on numbers for the self paced courses, basically as a Q&A time
[00:32] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
[00:32] <cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: do i need to be active in the forums to participate?
[00:33] <cprofitt> No, there is no need to be active on the forums...
[00:33] <cprofitt> we may use material from some of the how-to guides posted there, but you will not need to be active
[00:33] <cprofitt> unless an instructor wants to use the forums as an activity
[00:34] <Vantrax> any material used from how-to guides will be used only with the original author's permission
[00:36] <cprofitt> pwnguin> question: will the service be able to host videos?
[00:37] <cprofitt> I believe it can...
[00:37] <cprofitt> Moodle can also host flash animations...
[00:37] <cprofitt> though I would like to find a FOSS alternative to flash
 QUESTIONS:  what about screencasts?  are you working with that team too?
[00:38] <cprofitt> I am not aware of us doing that yet, but we certainly would want too.
[00:40] <cprofitt> pwnguin> question: would a refresher course on new features every release be a reasonable project?
[00:40] <cprofitt> I think we would focus on LTS courses...
[00:41] <cprofitt> doing courses every 6 months would be difficult
[00:41] <cprofitt> we would try to keep courses up-to-date if possible
[00:41] <cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: if you offer courseware via Creative Commons, aren't you basically required to disclose test and quiz answers to anyone who asks for them ahead of time?
[00:41] <cprofitt> Sure...
[00:41] <cprofitt> just like any workbook you buy the answers are in that section...
[00:42] <cprofitt> but if a person wants to get value out of it.. they likely will try to do the work
[00:42] <cprofitt> since there are no grades I am not sure why anyone would want to 'abuse' having the answers
[00:43] <pwnguin> imagine a community college course borrowing the courseware
[00:43] <pwnguin> for an intro to UNIX course or some such
[00:43] <Vantrax> also there is no certification, that is canonicals baby
[00:43] <Vantrax> pwnguin, that would be a good thing, long as its attributed
[00:45] <cprofitt> Now...
[00:45] <cprofitt> I am currently recruiting EDU curriculum writers to assist us with writing the first course...
[00:45] <cprofitt> and the first course will be a course on - How to Build A Moodle Course -
[00:46] <cprofitt> that will help other contributors build solid courses
[00:46] <cprofitt> if you know of an educator who has Moodle (or other LMS experience) we are interested in talking to them
[00:50] <cprofitt> Thank you for attending everyone...
[00:50] <cprofitt> have a good evening
[00:53]  * ausimage remarks all logs for today are up !!!
[00:53] <pleia2> hooray :)
[01:11] <FiveAcres> /join #xubuntu
[12:28] <Faith_Nahn> \ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
[14:28] <AmanicA> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
[14:28] <AmanicA> sorry
[14:31] <thegrieve> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS  JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC  DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
[14:31] <thegrieve> hehe
[14:31] <thegrieve> sorry too
[14:31] <thegrieve> thanks AmanicA for saving me having to open the wiki again tho :)
[14:46] <jcastro> nhandler: around?
[14:46] <jcastro> 1 hour, 15 minutes until the Mark Shuttleworth Q+A session folks!
[14:57]  * thegrieve cheers our SABDFL
[14:58]  * artir thinks sabdfl isn't here yet
[14:58] <knome> thegrieve, one hour.
[15:05]  * thegrieve is aware of the fact but likes to express himself
[15:05]  * artir proposes thegrieve and everyone to say WELCOME MARK in capital letters when he enters the chat
[15:07]  * thegrieve thinks that might create a somewhat creepy village-of-the-damned-esque atmosphere..... naturally he approves
[15:37] <jcastro> testing
[15:57] <jcastro> Just a few more minutes everyone!
[16:01] <jcastro> Just a quick reminder before mark gets here
[16:02] <jcastro> questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:02] <jcastro> and I will paste them here
[16:02] <jcastro> we always get a ton of questions, so if your question is easily google-able I'll probably skip it
[16:02] <jcastro> so try not asking when the next ubuntu comes out or something. :)
[16:03] <sabdfl> howdy all
[16:03] <jcastro> Welcome Mark!
[16:03] <sabdfl> fingers all warmed up, let's get cracking
[16:03] <jcastro> Thanks everyone for showing up, all 324 of you!
[16:04] <jcastro> start with questions or do you have something to say first?
[16:04] <sabdfl> well
[16:04] <sabdfl> only thanks to everyone who helped  make 9.04 our BEST RELEASE EVER :-)
[16:04] <sabdfl> on that note, fire away
 QUESTION: Issues with drivers tend to plague Ubuntu with with nasty bugs very close to release time, is there any reconsiderations with release schedules to give more time for beta testing?
[16:05] <sabdfl> effie_jayx: thorny problem, and not one that the release cycle itself can solve
[16:05] <sabdfl> the more time we spend on beta testing, the more new hardware is emerging that won't work with that release
[16:05] <sabdfl> there is a conversation ongoing about the LTS's
[16:05] <sabdfl> www.markshuttleworth.com needs comments, hint hint ;-)
[16:05] <sabdfl> but there's no strong movement to re-evaluate 6 month releases
[16:06] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Recently a translation coordinator was appointed at Canonical, I am glad that this aspect of cooperation between Ubuntu and various upstream projects is in focus. Are there already plans and ideas on what should be improved, may be even there particular targets have been defined already?
[16:06] <sabdfl> you'd be best asking (David) ?
[16:06] <jcastro> His session is 1500UTC on friday
[16:06] <sabdfl> coolio
 QUESTION: Does canonical provides Internships or Entry Level positions for sysadmins/developers?
[16:06] <sabdfl> we spent a lot of time building a translation framework that could coordinate between ubuntu and upstream
[16:07] <sabdfl> and then realised we had nobody actually focused on that flow
[16:07] <sabdfl> so hopefully this will be a big improvement
[16:07] <sabdfl> RoAkSoAx: yes, we do, best to chat with someone on the canonical platform (ubuntu) team, or one of the sysadmins if that's your focus area
[16:07] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Mark, are there plans to do more work with existing partners like IBM to increase official product  (WebSphere, Eclipse, TeamConcert etc.) support for Ubuntu Server as an enterprise platform? http://www.ubuntu.com/partners/ibm
[16:08] <sabdfl> oldman: yes, very much so. we need to be able to demonstrate critical mass, i have no doubt we will get there
[16:09] <sabdfl> key thing is to demonstrate large organisations deploying ubuntu in production, underneath services which they expect to pay to keep healthy and innovative
[16:09] <sabdfl> so, if you have case studies, or users, that will help
[16:09] <sabdfl> as best i can tell, ubuntu is the #1 platform for evaluations, now
[16:09] <sabdfl> need to translate that into production deployments
[16:09] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESITON: What factors are you juding 9.04 as the best release ever from ?
[16:09] <sabdfl> nice combination of desktop and server features, plus
[16:10] <sabdfl> no major subsystem issues, plus
[16:10] <sabdfl> some unique features we are contributing to upstream, plus
[16:10] <sabdfl> 105 release parties, plus
[16:10] <sabdfl> it's named after a mythical horned rabbit.
[16:10] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Recently, the idea of replacing Rhythmbox for Banshee in Karmic has resparked the Mono debate in the Ubuntu community. As the SABDFL, what is your view on Mono? Is it safe to build a distribution that depends on it?
[16:11] <sabdfl> yes, i believe mono is a reasonable runtime to include in a distribution like ubuntu
[16:11] <sabdfl> i don't expect microsoft to launch any IP assaults based on mono adoption, they have said they will not do that
[16:11] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Where do you think we are concerning the bug #1? do you see it being closed in the (more or less distant) future?
[16:11] <sabdfl> interesting times
[16:12] <sabdfl> linux (and to a certain extent ubuntu) is now a major force in the PC industry
[16:12] <sabdfl> microsoft was able to do a diving catch to save market share in netbooks only by giving XP away at very, very low prices
[16:12] <sabdfl> a product they wanted to kill 18 months ago
[16:12] <sabdfl> now, things will get more interesting
[16:13] <sabdfl> we will see Windows 7 Starter Edition in major western markets, which is new (it was designed for emerging markets to address piracy)
[16:13] <sabdfl> and we'll see if that model works for users
[16:13] <sabdfl> i think we can compete
[16:13] <sabdfl> ubuntu with full office capability competes nicely with uncrippled windows and office on price, stability and functionality
[16:13] <sabdfl> so, game on
[16:14] <sabdfl> we will know a lot more in 18 months - can we actually carve out territory that is defensible?
[16:14] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: what are the plans for GNOME3 and the LTS. Will you release 10.04 with it or defer it to 10.10?
[16:14] <sabdfl> we'll support GNOME3 in the best way we can
[16:15] <sabdfl> it's too early to say what that will be - it depends on what our users want, what the development community wants, and what the code looks like
[16:15] <sabdfl> i suspect it will be best to get GNOME3 onto as many *developer* desktops as possible as soon as possible
[16:15] <sabdfl> but that it will not be a good service to our users to suggest they upgrade direct to 3.0, perhaps more 3.2
[16:15] <sabdfl> the experience with KDE was very useful
[16:16] <sabdfl> if GNOME 3 is 2.30, then I expect we would make available packages in universe or a PPA with easy tools for people to get it in one click or one command
[16:16] <sabdfl> while delivering an LTS based on more established code
[16:17] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Now that Ubuntu is diving into the "Cloud" space, how does Canonical see this evolution of Ubuntu server - does it involve  providing a server stack or more modular building blocks for enterprise apps?
[16:18] <sabdfl> the Ubuntu server is already fantastic for highly virtualised and large-scale deployments, thanks to it's awesome heritage in Debian combined with the predictability of the Ubuntu cycle and service backup of Canonical
[16:18] <sabdfl> the debian way is highly modular, which is great for large deployments because you only install the bits you need, meaning you only have security updates for the bits you need
[16:18] <sabdfl> it's also great for virtualisation, because you have leaner, more efficient images
[16:18] <sabdfl> so far so good
[16:19] <sabdfl> next, i think the focus will shift to finding and deploying appliances rather than packages
[16:19] <sabdfl> but, your crystal ball is likely as good as mine :-)
[16:19] <sabdfl> in 9.10, i think we'll show progress in how you design and build collections of virtual appliances for deployment on a UEC (Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud) substrate
[16:19] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Mark, How do you see the Oracle-Sun deal, do you think it is going to affect Open source projects like Java, OpenOffice, etc? Is it going to affect in some way ubuntu?
[16:20] <sabdfl> it will definitely affect them, but it's too soon to know for sure how
[16:20] <sabdfl> we'll have to see whether Oracle makes any big initial moves (selling off or shutting down any projects)
[16:20] <sabdfl> then we'll need to see if the people who were engaged there are changed
[16:20] <sabdfl> and then we'll need to see how the dust settles
[16:20] <sabdfl> that will take three months, a year, three years respectively
[16:21] <sabdfl> the code is still free software, that cannot be taken back
[16:21] <sabdfl> if you're passionate about those projects the best thing to do is to participate, imo
[16:21] <sabdfl> i'm not worried about any of those
[16:21] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Can you give us more intel on Ubuntuone, please? ( /sad kitten face=1)
[16:22] <sabdfl> ubuntu one is a framework for building online services that plug right into the desktop
[16:22] <sabdfl> so, you can build a service which has data in the cloud and a front-end on the desktop
[16:22] <sabdfl> Canonical provides some of the core infrastructure you can hook into
[16:22] <sabdfl> but your service is your business
[16:22] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION:considering a recently map on open source activity worldwide, what do you think could help african people to use more open source products ?
[16:23] <sabdfl> ongolaBoy: it takes a lot of confidence to deploy open source
[16:23] <sabdfl> so, how can we build the IT skills confidence in the continent?
[16:23] <sabdfl> better education, better experience with open source
[16:24] <sabdfl> i think it's up to the IT leaders in countries, government and private sector, to decide which way they want to go
[16:24] <sabdfl> i'm pretty sure africa will be a major beneficiary, but i'm not sure africa will be an effective leader of the move to open source
[16:24] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Will we finaly have a promised "New look" in next release, and is it gonna be something good, something different or something like Human-Clearlooks. :)
[16:25] <sabdfl> Milos_SD: it has taken a long, long time to pull together a design team
[16:25] <sabdfl> i had hoped to have that team in place six months ago, but it's still forming
[16:25] <sabdfl> i think we will make good progress in the next cycle
[16:25] <sabdfl> you can already see a few things that have borne fruit from that team
[16:25] <sabdfl> notifications, time zone selector in installer, etc
[16:25] <sabdfl> but it's fragmentary
[16:26] <sabdfl> i'm pretty darn confident we'll have a new look for 10.04
[16:26] <sabdfl> but i think only pieces of that will emerge for 9.10
[16:26] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Canonical have a design ethic that's (IMO) ahead of the rest of the free software community, and I'd love to buy hardware with that design ethic; any chance of Canonical making that happen somehow?
[16:26] <jcastro> some other questions about canonical getting into hardware as well
[16:27] <sabdfl> aquarius: appreciate the compliment - for the moment i think we have to focus our efforts on the software piece and work with a diversity of hardware partners to help you get the device you need and want!
[16:27] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: brick and mortar stores rely on the sales of software along with PCs. Many local-to-me shops refuse to carry free OS computers because they lose the related software sales. Do you have suggestions on how we can support our local shops AND Ubuntu?
[16:27] <sabdfl> it's a great question
[16:27] <sabdfl> essentially - is industry addicted to software margins, and can we safely treat the addiction?
[16:28] <sabdfl> one answer is that computers will increasingly be sold in non-specialised stores
[16:28] <sabdfl> both online and offline
[16:28] <sabdfl> Tesco's, and Amazon
[16:28] <sabdfl> or Dell.com
[16:28] <sabdfl> that's not a great answer for your local-to-you specialised store, though
[16:29] <sabdfl> i don't have better ideas other than that, if we continue to improve the experience, usefulness, robustness and capabilities of the free software alternative
[16:29] <sabdfl> industry will reconfigure itself around that
[16:29] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Do you see value in assisting LoCo groups who want to advocate for Ubuntu at computer shows such as the annual NYSCATE show (http://www.nyscate.org/) where Microsoft and Apple have dominated mind share in US schools
[16:30] <sabdfl> i do, but i also know the difficulty of engaging with thousands of such initiatives
[16:30] <sabdfl> we have programs like shipit, where we have specific processes to identify and support those sorts of events
[16:30] <sabdfl> but we are a small team spread thin worldwide
[16:30] <sabdfl> do you have a specific request or suggestion?
[16:30] <sabdfl> if so, please mail jorge, and feel free to cc me
[16:30] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: If suddenly the majority of computer users were on Ubuntu machines instead of Windows, do you think Ubuntu would be ready? Are there any key developments that need to be made before Ubuntu could be an excellent mainstream product? (Is it even desirable to be so mainstream?)
[16:31] <sabdfl> great question
[16:31] <sabdfl> yes, it's desireable, and yes, there would be issues
[16:31] <sabdfl> i think we will grow into the role
[16:31] <sabdfl> there's a LOT going on at the hardware level, as we engage with the PC industry to work out how to enable them best on linux generally and Ubuntu specifically
[16:32] <sabdfl> if the world suddenly wanted Ubuntu everywhere tomorrow, we'd blow a fuse
[16:32] <sabdfl> but over time it could be done
[16:32] <sabdfl> and i think we shouldn't shy away from a mainstream role
[16:33] <sabdfl> folks spending weekends making X better, or GiMP better, or Abiword better, or OO.o better, will have more satisfaction if they know that work will reach 100m people rather than 10m people
[16:33] <sabdfl> next?
 Question : regarding the computer distribution, I ofen been told linux is for geeks/specialists only, my ubuntu experiences shows me the inverse, how can we change the way stores sales man see linux ?
[16:34] <sabdfl> jarens: only with patience, time, and commitment to making it even better every six months
[16:34] <sabdfl> thank you for the compliments though :-)
[16:34] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: I hear your in support of the new Ubuntu Learning group, do you think it's important for LoCo groups to be involved in Education Events, classes and so on?
[16:34] <sabdfl> yes, very much so
[16:34] <sabdfl> in part to help jarens with those salesmen :-)
[16:34] <sabdfl> we have very precious knowledge, those of us who are early on the free software adoption curve
[16:34] <sabdfl> and finding effective ways to share it is essential
[16:35] <sabdfl> so, kudos and thanks to all who are involved in that effort
[16:35] <sabdfl> next?
 Question:am from India and i can see real participation coming from all corners of the society for ubuntu but  they need real volunteers/certifications/motivation.what is the roadmap for that?
[16:35] <sabdfl> koolhead17: participating is a social process
[16:35] <sabdfl> so one thing is to make sure that those who join are made welcome and find constructive things to do
[16:36] <sabdfl> it's also professional, so we have been working for some time on qualifications that certify one's skills
[16:36] <sabdfl> the most important thing, imo, is convincing Indian companies to deploy free software, and hire people who know how to make it work
[16:36] <sabdfl> i saw news today about India buying 250k OLPC's, which is great
[16:37] <sabdfl> I also saw news about Indian IT companies letting their employees spend time on open source software during the recession, also brilliant
[16:37] <sabdfl> because it will let them build their reputation and skills for the post-recession time
[16:37] <sabdfl> next?
[16:37] <jcastro> TheOpenSourcerer: QUESTION: A *good while* ago announcements were made regarding the packaging of Alfresco and Zimbra in the repos.  Where are they?
[16:37] <sabdfl> i don't know, offhand, i'm afraid
[16:38] <sabdfl> best would be to email<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:38] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: with Canonical settling on virtualization support around KVM, is there going to be development of a Ubuntu KVM baremetal install similar to what Redhat is working on?
[16:38] <sabdfl> you mean, a thins hypervisor layer?
[16:38] <jcastro> yes
[16:39] <sabdfl> if so, we are already much thinner in a default install than Redhat
[16:39] <sabdfl> so it's less of a priority
[16:39] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: As a maintainer of Ubuntu systems, I find it disappointing when many (non-security) bugs are closed with a comment saying "this is fixed for the $current-version-in-dev". Can LTS-es please start getting more meaningful long term support, ie, not just security fixes?
[16:39] <sabdfl> carthik: every update carries risk
[16:40] <sabdfl> if we fixed a bug for one user, but broke thousands of systems, we would be abusing our responsibilities
[16:40] <sabdfl> so, we are conservative in that regard
[16:40] <sabdfl> the SRU process is there specifically to ensure we maintain predictability for users
[16:41] <sabdfl> sometimes the bug you know is better than the fix you don't
[16:41] <sabdfl> if you think it can be done better i would encourage you to join the team that evaluates SRU's
[16:41] <sabdfl> put more fixed packages in PPA's
[16:41] <sabdfl> next?
[16:41] <jcastro> Some ayatana questions! <oldman> QUESTION: Mark, as part of project ayatana, will we see Canonical's design team raising usability bugs and feeding suggested improvements into key desktop apps bug trackers for Karmic? https://launchpad.net/ayatana
[16:41] <sabdfl> yes
[16:42] <jcastro> (also: <JayBee> QUESTION: What will come next in the Ayatana project? What part of the experience will you try to enhance next?)
[16:42] <sabdfl> Ayatana is an initiative that spans desktop environments (there are folks there from KDE and GNOME at least, possibly XFCE et al)
[16:42] <sabdfl> and I expect us to engage directly with individual upstreams as well as the broader DE's
[16:43] <sabdfl> notifications will see an evolutionary improvement in 9.10 that is under discussion on the Ayatana list
[16:43] <sabdfl> as will the messaging menu
[16:43] <sabdfl> those discussions are all public so please join in
[16:43] <sabdfl> there are some other new features that we are working on for partners, they will be open source when they release and go into the next version of ubuntu
[16:43] <sabdfl> more on those in the announcements in due course :-)
[16:43] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What heuristic do you use to determine which parts of Launchpad will be open sourced, and which will remain proprietary?
[16:44] <sabdfl> launchpad.net is a front end, all of that code is being released
[16:44] <sabdfl> there are a variety of other services and things that talk to it
[16:44] <sabdfl> and we'll release some of those
[16:45] <sabdfl> in some cases, licensing of components may preclude release
[16:45] <sabdfl> in others, i may want to create competitive advantage for canonical
[16:45] <sabdfl> but everything that an upstream uses through the web will be released
[16:45] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: dear mister Mark. What kind of poems do you like? Flight to space what rhyme gives?
[16:46] <sabdfl> Poems that distract from crashy landings :-)
[16:47] <sabdfl> it's a long time since i read poetry, but thanks for the reminder i'll go dig some up!
[16:47] <sabdfl> saw Oliver recently, was a lot of fun, i was the Artful Dodger in a school performance of it years ago
[16:47] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Why does Canonical refuse to provide a 32bit desktop kernel that supports more than 4GB of RAM?
[16:47] <sabdfl> Shock: because it's not worth the performance, stability and complexity tradeoffs for 10m users
[16:47] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Have you seen gnome-shell what do you think?
[16:48] <sabdfl> i was there when it was being designed in Boston
[16:48] <sabdfl> i think there are cool ideas, and it will evolve into something fantastic given time
[16:48] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to develop Beta/RC specific packages which are able to test hardware configurations and report more possible failures?
[16:49] <sabdfl> the whole arena of QA is coming on in leaps and bounds
[16:49] <sabdfl> we *nearly* go kerneloops integrated in 9.04, but it slipped
[16:49] <sabdfl> apport has come along hugely
[16:49] <sabdfl> all the bug reporting tools are improved
[16:50] <sabdfl> we are now at about 50% of bugs reported being done with tools rather than the web, which is great
[16:50] <sabdfl> we get much clearer data from tools, of course
[16:50] <sabdfl> for more, i would suggest you chat to henrik omma
[16:50] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Mark, what is your all-time favorite comfort food ?
[16:50] <sabdfl> peanut butter and jam on toast
[16:50] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Has there been any dialog with Apple on bringing official iTunes/iPod support to Linux?  This has been another stumbling block to linux adoption...
[16:51] <sabdfl> (i also have a killer weakness for by-weight sweets at the movies)
[16:51] <sabdfl> miles2: none of which i'm aware
[16:51] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: In Ubuntu 9.04 there is a new system notifications (notify-osd) When the ability to customize them? If so, what emerges more than two messages?
[16:51] <sabdfl> A4Tech1: serialising the messages is by design behaviour for notify-osd
[16:52] <sabdfl> in other words, if three different apps send you messages, you see them one at a time
[16:52] <sabdfl> that lets us bound the area devoted to this on the screen
[16:52] <sabdfl> we also created the ability for apps to append to existing messages
[16:52] <sabdfl> which is useful for sequential messages from the same app, often
[16:52] <sabdfl> like, messages from a friend on IM
[16:52] <sabdfl> pidgin supports that, and a few others do too
[16:53] <sabdfl> we have no immediate plans for theming
[16:53] <sabdfl> nexct?
 QUESTION: What do you think is the importance of FOSS gaming for the adoption of Ubuntu?
[16:53] <sabdfl> vensign: i don't have any good ideas for how to drive FOSS gaming forward
[16:53] <sabdfl> personally, i game on a PS3 now, so it's less important for me
[16:53] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: We have great support for printer drivers now, are there plans to make it easy like that to download and install scanner firmware aswell? For example, there is a website (http://www.meier-geinitz.de/sane/gt68xx-backend/) with some firmware files, Ubuntu _only_ needs to provide a mechanism to automatically fetch them and put them in the right folder?
[16:54] <sabdfl> it's a good suggestion
[16:54] <sabdfl> come to UDS and lead the discussion there :-)
[16:54] <sabdfl> i don't know of any such plans, but it sounds like a reasonable suggestion
[16:54] <sabdfl> all you need to find is the Till Kampeter of scanners
[16:54] <sabdfl> next?
 jcastro,  QUESTION: Until now you have lead a great project based on the unity of the community; I'm part of the El Salvador Team and we are in desperate need of support. We understand that this is a world wide effort but... with due respect... is there any plan to improve support and response times to the community?
[16:55] <sabdfl> DKcross: we can't provide direct financial support
[16:55] <sabdfl> we do try to provide common infrastructure solutions
[16:55] <jcastro> he means RT response time
[16:55] <sabdfl> but, in a community effort, we each contribute what we can
[16:55] <jcastro> I have noted it down to look into it
[16:56] <sabdfl> doing more there would mean doing less elsewhere, unless you can inspire more people to participate and contribute
[16:56] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What's the chances of Canonical convincing Adobe to port Creative Suite?
[16:56] <sabdfl> homer: it is possible if we can show that enough people will buy it to make it worthwhile for them
[16:56] <sabdfl> next?
[16:57] <sabdfl> phew, fingers now more than warm :-)
[16:57] <sabdfl> jcastro: is that a wrap? we have a little more time
[16:57] <jcastro> sabdfl: it's a 2 hour session
[16:57] <sabdfl> ok cool
[16:58] <jcastro> but we can take 5 for everyone's fingers to cool off?
[16:58] <sabdfl> okdokey
[16:58] <jcastro> ok everyone, take 5 and we'll be back with more questions!
[16:59] <jcastro> Please hold your questions until we start, and then if I haven't gotten to it please be patient and repeat it, thanks!
[17:01] <sabdfl> ok
[17:03] <jcastro> ok, welcome back everyone
[17:03] <sabdfl> fire awa
[17:03] <sabdfl> y
 QUESTION: Mark, what is your recipe for financial, and business success? What is the key of succes in your opinion?
[17:04] <sabdfl> doing the things you are passionate about
[17:04] <sabdfl> i was reading in new scientist about training and sports
[17:04] <sabdfl> basically, they were saying that the people who are successful are the people who love to train
[17:04] <sabdfl> makes sense
[17:04] <sabdfl> i think that's true of everything
[17:04] <sabdfl> if it feels like PLAY to you, you'll do it a lot, and then you are training
[17:04] <sabdfl> nobody can tell you what the Next Big Thing is
[17:05] <sabdfl> if you're interested in that, don't listen to the headlines, they are too late by far
[17:05] <sabdfl> just find the thing you are most interested in
[17:05] <sabdfl> and find a way to make a life out of that
[17:05] <sabdfl> you will do better at it, measuring better by "mastery and fulfillment"
[17:06] <sabdfl> then don't read adverts that tell you better is anything else
[17:06] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: what do you think about developing a web-base configuration tool for both desktop and server?
[17:06] <sabdfl> i think there are quite a few efforts to achieve that
[17:06] <sabdfl> e-box?
[17:06] <sabdfl> it's not an area i would invest in
[17:06] <sabdfl> but if you're interested in it, go for it!
[17:06] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to incorporate GNOME-Do into the desktop?
[17:07] <sabdfl> isn't it already there?
[17:07] <sabdfl> i saw it on a fresh UNR install recently, so thought it was there by default
[17:07] <sabdfl> it's great work, the project leader is now on the design team working on Ayatana
[17:07] <sabdfl> so, expect more good stuff
[17:07] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: How important is it that Ubuntu has a quality education offering? Are schools, students, and children the way to gain mainstream adoption of Ubuntu?
[17:08] <sabdfl> yes, i think education is important
[17:08] <sabdfl> i wish we saw more participation in edubuntu, and adoption of it directly
[17:08] <sabdfl> there are many enormous deployments of ubuntu for education, but they tend to use vanilla ubuntu and then customise it themselves
[17:09] <sabdfl> perhaps this is an area that will open up again in future as more governments get serious about free software
[17:09] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What are the consecuenses for Canonical and Ubuntu ofthe agreement between Microsoft and Garmin about Fat32 thinking about the one thing everybody is talking about: Mono and Microsoft patents over some core technologies behind it?
[17:09] <sabdfl> i think Linux was not the main focus of that dispute
[17:10] <sabdfl> so, we have yet to see how it would work out in court, or what's important to Microsoft
[17:10] <sabdfl> i don't see any benefit to Microsoft in launching an IP assault
[17:10] <sabdfl> they are far more vulnerable to an IP war than most companies
[17:11] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: are there any plans to offer landscape as a service that can be deployed internally in the enterprise? (rather than requiring external access to canonical) https://landscape.canonical.com/
[17:11] <sabdfl> yes, there are three beta sites for that
[17:12] <sabdfl> contact<EMAIL_ADDRESS>if you want to know more
[17:12] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: what about a seperated LTS version? so normal users have the latest software while LTS-users get more stability.
[17:12] <sabdfl> lukeen1: by separated, you mean, a different timing?
[17:12] <jcastro> I think so
[17:12] <sabdfl> something released outside the normal 6-month cycle?
[17:13] <sabdfl> we already do many things differently in an LTS cycle
[17:13] <sabdfl> they are subtle but important
[17:13] <sabdfl> and I am hoping that we will see broad community interest in the idea of LTS releases, especially upstream
[17:13] <sabdfl> hence http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/288
[17:14] <sabdfl> i would encourage you to discuss that with key upstreams you are interested in, to see if THEY are willing to converge around an LTS cycle
[17:14] <sabdfl> that's the only way to address this, properly
[17:14] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: How do you see the new Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud competing in the enterprise against the likes of 3Tera and Abiquo?
[17:15] <sabdfl> i think many management infrastructures (rightscale etc) can work with UEC
[17:15] <sabdfl> I assume 3Tera and Abiquo could do the same
[17:15] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What are your thoughts on adding a media center app (xbmc, elisa, boxee, etc) to the live CD.  Is the problem a space issue or something else?
[17:15] <sabdfl> i haven't been part of any discussions about that, so am not well briefed :-)
[17:16] <sabdfl> i don't know what the constraints are. has there been a UDS discussion about that before?
[17:16] <jcastro> I don't think so
[17:16] <jcastro> there are a bunch of media center things
[17:16]  * jcastro notes it down
[17:16] <sabdfl> if not, I would suggest proposing it for UDS-Barcelona and leading the discussion
[17:16] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What do you think is the biggest weakness of 9.04?
[17:16] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Are their plans on integrating Opennebula with Eucalyptus? or doing more with Opennebula?
[17:17] <sabdfl> erk
[17:17] <sabdfl> missed the previous q
[17:17] <sabdfl> biggest weakness of 9.04?
[17:17] <sabdfl> some graphics driver glitches, and the fact that we never got kerneloops in
[17:17] <sabdfl> but nothing major
[17:18] <sabdfl> 9.10 will be a little crazy, with graphical boot and big changes to X
[17:18] <sabdfl> so i'm glad 9.04 is so solid
[17:18] <sabdfl> opennebula...
[17:18] <sabdfl> i know the server team is looking at it in detail
[17:18] <sabdfl> it would be important to have great collaboration between eucalyptus and opennebula if we decided to do that
[17:19] <sabdfl> UDS will be the place for detailed discussion and decisions on that front
[17:19] <sabdfl> next?
[17:19] <jcastro> QUESTION: Mark, you can send the disk with Ubuntu 9.10, or 10.04 with his autograph to me? Please
[17:19] <jcastro> :)
[17:19] <sabdfl> come to UDS and I'll happily autograph a CD there :-)
[17:19] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION:  Is there work being done with companies (I'm looking at you Dell) to offer Ubuntu at the same time as Windows?  I still can't get a mini 10 with ubuntu on it.
[17:19] <sabdfl> yes, that is coming
[17:19] <sabdfl> but it's a huge effort
[17:20] <sabdfl> you can, however, get a version of Ubuntu that is not a complete resource hog, or 6 years old :-)
[17:20] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: where do you see the netbook market headed? are there vendors expected to roll out UNR?
[17:20] <sabdfl> boredandblogging: a few more vendors will announce UNR devices, that i'm aware of
[17:20] <sabdfl> which is great
[17:21] <sabdfl> it's turned out to be very popular with people who have bought devices that had various custom versions of linux on it
[17:21] <sabdfl> we are actively developing it, and adding features which will be unique to the vendors when they ship, but which will then migrate into the subsequent Ubuntu releases
[17:21] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: As software gets bigger and bigger, when do you think Ubuntu will ditch the live CD and go for a live DVD
[17:22] <sabdfl> zaidka: the discipline of the CD has served us well
[17:22] <sabdfl> i think USB sticks are more interesting than DVD's, personally
[17:22] <sabdfl> if we could put everything on, we would not have such interesting choices to make :-)
[17:22] <sabdfl> next?
 jcastro: QUESTION: Do you see Wine (and Windows-compatibilty in general) or native Linux ports as the more important ingredient in the success of Ubuntu, or do they each play an important role?
[17:23] <sabdfl> they both play an important role
[17:23] <sabdfl> but fundamentally, the free software ecosystem needs to thrive on its own rules
[17:23] <sabdfl> it is *different* to the proprietary software universe
[17:23] <sabdfl> we need to make a success of our own platform on our own terms
[17:23] <sabdfl> if Linux is just another way to run Windows apps, we can't win
[17:24] <sabdfl> OS/2 tried that
[17:24] <sabdfl> next?
 jcastro: QUESTION: Do you think Kubuntu is a blue headed step child that every seems to think it is? If not, can you put the rumours to rest, with possibly a song or a lovely poem letting everyone know just how much you really love us over in the Kubuntu community?
[17:24] <sabdfl> oh dea
[17:24] <sabdfl> r
[17:24] <sabdfl> this question makes me rather sad, because i don't know what else i could do
[17:25] <sabdfl> i worked out the other day that i personally spend more than $2m a year supporting Kubuntu and KDE
[17:25] <sabdfl> and yet those communities think it's cool to act unloved
[17:25] <sabdfl> i think the Kubuntu community's work is amazing, and they should be proud of it
[17:25] <sabdfl> there's no need to make out like it's against the forces of corporate indifference
[17:26] <sabdfl> when in fact I and many others bend a long way to make it possible
[17:26] <sabdfl> that's about enough on the subject
[17:26] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What would you say is the biggest barrier to widespread Ubuntu adoption? (By widespread, I mean a market share >30%)
[17:26] <sabdfl> delivering an amazing end user experience
[17:27] <sabdfl> ubuntu is good enough for those of us who choose it, as it gets better, more will choose it
[17:27] <sabdfl> our weakest points are the basic user experience (it feels fragmented and disjointed sometimes)
[17:27] <sabdfl> multimedia because of patents
[17:27] <sabdfl> and hardware support
[17:28] <sabdfl> i'm working on user experience with the Ayatana team
[17:28] <sabdfl> and hardware support is improving steadily as industry learns to love linux
[17:28] <sabdfl> next?
 jcastro: QUESTION: If for some crazy and unimaginable  reason, the use of the words ubuntu and canonical  (and all associated branding) was no longer  possible, what would you like to rename the company/distro
[17:28] <sabdfl> Wonderful and Wonderful, Inc
[17:28] <sabdfl> next?
 jcastro: QUESTION: Are there plans for Ubuntu Server certifications, or to expand the existing Ubuntu Certified Professional program?
[17:28] <sabdfl> yup
[17:29] <sabdfl> the server is the focus of a set of new training programs
[17:29] <sabdfl> virtual training courses are available
[17:29] <sabdfl> http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=21
[17:30] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: A lot of Ubuntu developers are on identi.ca. Do you have an account, and if not, would you create one and start using it?
[17:30] <sabdfl> i have one but i forgot the password
[17:30] <sabdfl> i tweet, rarely, as sabdfl
[17:30] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Will Ubuntu only truly begin to compete with the likes of Apple when the project can dictate hardware specs to manufacturers?  Is catering for so many different forms of hardware a realistic approach long-term?
[17:30] <sabdfl> yes, i think we need to work with the full range of hardware, not narrow the focus to a subset as Apple does
[17:31] <sabdfl> it works well for them, don't think it would work for us
[17:31] <sabdfl> next?
[17:31] <jcastro> QUESTION: In the USA, the power of the Lobbyist in the government is very strong.  Do you know of any equal organizations that use Lobbyist to influence politics to a Open Source direction?
[17:31] <sabdfl> amber, is that you?
[17:31] <jcastro> I don't think it is
[17:31] <sabdfl> koinkidink
[17:32] <sabdfl> it's true that government policy is largely driven by established interest groups
[17:32] <sabdfl> that's true all over the world, as a rule
[17:32] <sabdfl> unfortunately, those who have been successful in the past are better positioned to try to defend that, than those who might be successful in the future are positioned to keep the playing field level
[17:33] <sabdfl> so, patents get extended, copyright gets extended, open source gets pushed back
[17:33] <sabdfl> but a good idea can't be kept down indefinitely
[17:33] <sabdfl> so, we just need to focus on delivering incrementally better releases
[17:33] <sabdfl> next?
[17:34] <jcastro>  Does Canonical have plans for Kubuntu QA, similar to the work that Ara is doing now?
[17:34] <sabdfl> if we had a partner wanting to do a Kubuntu-based device, then we would
[17:35] <sabdfl> i believe the the process is open, and hope community members would step up for Kubuntu if it were important to them
[17:35] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What is your favorite FOSS game?
[17:35] <sabdfl> nethack! never ascended.
[17:35] <sabdfl> next?
[17:35] <jcastro> we're down to a few more
[17:35] <jcastro>  <homer> QUESTION: Vim or Emacs?
[17:35] <sabdfl> vim!
[17:35] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: I'm working in a lot of projects, for exemple Debian, Gentoo, OpenMoko, etc. and they have all one problem: they loose their developers to Ubuntu and his community. This community is more an more sponsered by commercial enterprises like IBM and SUN. Is it possible that the whole OpenSourceCommunity around linux could get commercialized trough Ubuntu?
[17:36] <sabdfl> i'm not sure i understand the question
[17:36] <jcastro> I will ask a rephrase
 QUESTION: whats going to be the next big thing after the cloud?
[17:37] <sabdfl> (05:04:55 PM) sabdfl: nobody can tell you what the Next Big Thing is
[17:37] <sabdfl> not even me :-)
[17:37] <sabdfl> next?
[17:37] <jcastro> heh
 QUESTION: once on google, you said Canonical planed to drop support to Ubuntu from 90% to 10%. how is that going? Are there more companies and Communities behind it now then there where 3 years ago?
[17:38] <sabdfl> if you mean, that Canonical would be a smaller part of the Ubuntu ecosystem, yes, there are now more companies that participate
[17:38] <sabdfl> but Canonical remains by far the biggest
[17:38] <sabdfl> there are many more companies USING ubuntu now, but few providing dedicated developers or contributors in other areas
[17:38] <sabdfl> we'll have to see how that unfolds
[17:39] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: deals with big companies (Dell, Toshiba, etc) to sell machines with Ubuntu on are great; is there anything the community can do to help with that (other than "make Ubuntu fantastic!") or does it need to be all conference room discussions between partners and Canonical?
[17:39] <sabdfl> buy the machines and encourage others to do the same. nothing will accelerate it more than commercial success for the hardware companies who do take the Ubuntu plunge.
[17:39] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Do you plan to ever go public with Canonical
[17:40] <sabdfl> that's one option, yes, but it's not in any way a focus for me now
[17:40] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Recent surveys indicate that of those switching from XP but _not_ to Windows 7, 27% would go to OSX and 25% would go to Ubuntu, with Red Hat, Suse, and others below. What do we need to do to overtake OSX?
[17:40] <sabdfl> 2%?
[17:40] <sabdfl> ;-)
[17:40] <sabdfl> i thought that was an AMAZING result, btw
[17:40] <sabdfl> credit to the whole community for that
[17:41] <sabdfl> mostly, i think we need to stand up and be proud
[17:41] <sabdfl> encourage all of our family and friends to make the switch to free software and promise to stand by them throughout
[17:41] <sabdfl> since WE are mostly the people who support them, anyhow :-)
[17:41] <sabdfl> we do need to deliver classy, tight, useful software
[17:41] <sabdfl> so bring the lessons of Web 2.0 to the desktop
[17:41] <sabdfl> lean, mean, fast and easy to use
[17:41] <sabdfl> and we will do well
[17:41] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: I think it is a good thing that Canonical Inc. doesn't inject its services into the community very much (keeping the corporate out of the community, at least visibly, is good), but that means that some IT managers, out of ignorance, don't use Ubuntu because there is no commercial support contracts.  How do we harmonize the two?
[17:42] <sabdfl> greg-g: if anyone says they would be more interested in ubuntu if there was support, point them at http://www.canonical.com/services/support
[17:43] <sabdfl> we are reworking the Canonical web site, and then will get to the Ubuntu web site, and yes, we could make this supported element clearer
[17:43] <sabdfl> we have to do that without compromising the community involvement in Ubuntu - it's not just a Canonical effort
[17:43] <sabdfl> next?
[17:43] <jcastro> waiting for a question ...
 QUESTION:  Kindle sales jumped through the roof when selected as one of Oprah's favorite things - when will we see you promoting Ubuntu on the Oprah TV show?  can we send her a Netbook with UNR?
[17:44] <sabdfl> anything more from leviathan_?
[17:44] <sabdfl> what a great idea :-)
[17:44] <sabdfl> go for it!
 QUESTION: in the debian community were creating packaged, which get taken by ubuntu. visversa we get packeges back, but with a low quality. don't you think its on the time to get some standarts into ubuntu?
[17:45] <sabdfl> leviathan_: spelling standards?
[17:45] <sabdfl> i think your question is based on the assumption that ubuntu == bad
[17:45] <sabdfl> if you see the world through a filter, you will only see things that agree with that filter
[17:46] <sabdfl> in your previous question, I *think* you were saying that "ubuntu is bad because lots of developers are moving to ubuntu from other projects"
[17:46] <sabdfl> so, i don't know how to engage with you
[17:46] <sabdfl> i feel ubuntu provides a fantastic service to the free software community as a whole
[17:47] <sabdfl> as Tridge said, hundreds of thousands of free software developers get to work on their software without ever having to think about the OS, because Ubuntu makes it easy
[17:47] <sabdfl> i think that's valuable, and i'm proud of it
[17:47] <sabdfl> as for quality, well, I know the team cares enormously about quality, and work insanely hard to achieve that
[17:48] <sabdfl> the QA processes in Ubuntu make me proud, the QA team are fantastic, the bugsquad are unstoppable, the Bug Days and Hug Days are what make this project a pleasure to be part of
[17:48] <sabdfl> if you've decided that it suits your view of the world to say that "Ubuntu is bad", then so be it
[17:49] <sabdfl> but, if that's not true then you are doing yourself a disservice
[17:49] <sabdfl> this would be a more interesting discussion if you could speak in this channel i just realised :-)
[17:50] <sabdfl> so, feel free to privmsg me and we can talk further
[17:50] <sabdfl> but, in summary, this community cares about free software and about quality
[17:50] <sabdfl> and i would encourage you to look for real evidence if people say otherwise
[17:50] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION:  Would Canonical ever consider employing upstream developers for the areas that Ubuntu considers key like wireless or graphics?
[17:50] <jcastro> a few more so we have time to reset the channel for Docs Day!
[17:51] <sabdfl> yes, we have done so in the past and have job offers out for additional posts too
[17:51] <sabdfl> next?
 Question: How do you think more and more FLOSS developer can be able to do what they are passionate about while also provide for their families. Do you think there are more opportunities employed and as entrepreneurs for this?
[17:51] <jcastro> one more after this ...
[17:51] <sabdfl> i think y ou can get paid more if you advertise Linux skills than if you advertise Windows skills
[17:52] <sabdfl> it's certainly a premium offering
[17:52] <sabdfl> if you are passionate about FLOSS, then i would definitely urge you to work on, or with, free software in your day job
[17:52] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: A new announcement by Microsoft says there will be Open Office support in Office 2007, do you think that one way to gain users is to make Microsoft Adapt to us?
[17:53] <sabdfl> Froad_: i'm glad that they will do this, but i hear the support is terrible
[17:53] <sabdfl> i think we should rather push harder for open document standards
[17:53] <sabdfl> the ISO standards process was embarrassing last year
[17:53] <sabdfl> we have this amazing thing - the web - built entirely on an open format
[17:54] <sabdfl> and yet .doc lives in the dark ages
[17:54] <sabdfl> purely because governments and companies chickened out of demanding that openness
[17:54] <sabdfl> if we demand openness, then we'll get a better long term result
[17:54] <sabdfl> next?
[17:54] <jcastro> that's all we have time for
[17:54] <jcastro> any last comments?
[17:54] <sabdfl> phew
[17:55] <sabdfl> this was fun
[17:55] <sabdfl> thanks everyone!
[17:55] <jcastro> (the brutal 2 hour assault is over)
[17:55] <sabdfl> best wishes to everyone
[17:55] <Ireyon> great session ;)
[17:55] <jcastro> thanks everyone!
[17:55] <JFo> thanks sabdfl
[17:55] <jerms> chat logs available anywhere ?
[17:55]  * carthik hugs sabdfl
[17:55] <sirdiego> thanks mark (=
[17:55] <kusanagi> thanks sabdfl
[17:55] <czajkowski> sabdfl: nice session
[17:55] <thegrieve> thanks mark
[17:55] <zaidka> thanks jcastro, sabdfl
[17:55] <jussi01> whats up next?
[17:55] <Shane_Fagan> Thanks mark
[17:55] <koolhead17> hmm
[17:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thanks sabdfl
[17:55] <charlie-tca> A big thanks to sabdfl and jcastro
[17:55] <artir> thanks mark
[17:55] <thegrieve> thanks jcastro for moderating
[17:55] <jcastro> jerms: they will be available soon on the page in the topic
[17:55] <Akallabeth> thanks Mark
[17:55] <ccc_dustin> Thanks Mark!
[17:55] <miles2> mark - thanks for everything!
[17:55] <snap-l> Thank you, sabdfl
[17:55] <jussi01> Thanks sabdfl!
[17:55] <khensthoth> Thanks!
[17:55] <sirdiego> hatlog here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/AskMark
[17:55] <sirdiego> c
[17:55] <camahuetos> thanks
[17:55] <rabbit251> Thanks, Mark!
[17:55] <BUGabundo> thanks sabdfl  and jcastro
[17:56]  * RainCT hugs sabdfl :)
[17:56] <JayBee> thanks sabdfl
[17:56] <riorio> yeah, keep rocking sabdfl
[17:56] <sea-gull> thank you, Mark!
[17:56] <pdragon> thanks!
[17:56] <txwikinger_work> thanks sabdfl
[17:56] <unimatrix9> keep up the spirit and the good work, we enjoy it daily!
[17:56] <rufong> ty sabdfl
[17:56] <indSpike> Thanks sabdfl
[17:56] <jcastro> ok guys, 5 minute break until the next session
[17:56] <JackWat|Lap> Thanks sabdfl
[17:56]  * goshawk hugs sabdfl
[17:56] <indSpike> Thanks sabdfl
[17:57] <kusanagi> when will be upload sirdiego?
[17:57] <sabdfl> yo guys all rock
[17:57] <goshawk> thanks sabdfl
[17:57] <sabdfl> thanks jcastro for chairing a great session
[17:57] <jussi01> jcastro: do you need a rest? I can take over as questioner if needed?
[17:57] <koolhead17> so is that everytime happens?
[17:57] <sirdiego> kusanagi: i dont know, the logs from yesterday are all on atm
[17:57] <doctormo> Yes, yes, we all rock :-) thanks everyone for some good questions, I loved reading the answers to them.
[17:57] <kusanagi> keep it up sabdfl ;)
[17:57] <jcastro> jussi01: I'll likely step out for lunch in a minute after Adi takes over
[17:57] <jcastro> jussi01: if he needs help then sure!
[17:58] <jussi01> jcastro: ok :)
[17:58] <bencrisford1> nice one sabdfl :)
[17:58] <kusanagi> jcastro, when will be the log up in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/AskMark?
[17:58] <jcastro> adiroiban: you can +m the channel if you want, but everyone was well behaved yesterday and we didn't think it was necessary, up to you
[17:59] <jussi01> adiroiban: Im around to assist if needed.
[17:59] <ccc_dustin> good work jcastro
[17:59] <jcastro> kusanagi: ausimage has been doing the logs nearly-realtime, he's probably pasting right now. :D
[17:59] <bigbrovar> jcastro: where can i obtain the log files for the session?
[17:59] <adiroiban> ok
[17:59] <jcastro> ok guys, please move discussion to -chat
[17:59] <jcastro> take it away adiroiban!
[18:00] <adiroiban> ok. Hi guys and girls and welcome to the next session
[18:00] <adiroiban> My name is Adi Roiban and I am coordinating the Romanian LoCo team.
[18:00] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdiRoiban
[18:00] <A4Tech1> thanks sabdfl!
[18:01] <adiroiban> During the next minutes I will try to touch some of the aspect of creating some resources for your LoCo team.
[18:01] <adiroiban> First of all, let's make sure everyone know what is a LoCo Team.
[18:01] <A4Tech1> sabdfl: I hope when someone come to you at the summit :)
[18:02] <adiroiban> LoCo Team are Ubuntu Local Communities Team.  Their coverage can vary from a city local communities to country wide local communities.
[18:02] <adiroiban> Like I said above, this session is dedicate to LoCo team, but even if you are not the LoCo contact, or you are not yet a member of LoCo team, you should find a lot of useful information in this session.
[18:02] <adiroiban> Also if you are planning to start a new LoCo team this session should help you do the first steps.
[18:03] <adiroiban> if you don't know what I LoCo is, feel free to ask on the -chat channel
[18:04] <adiroiban> I will continue, assuming everyone knows what Ubuntu Local Communities are
[18:04] <Kangarooo>   Docs Day - Working on the Help Wiki - MatthewEast / Rocket2DMn  right now yes? :)
[18:05] <doctormo> no Kangarooo, 1 hour
[18:05] <Kangarooo> yes I know im shure many loco leaders/contact persons are her :)
[18:05] <Kangarooo> so now  Docs Day - Translating Documentation - MatthewEast / AdiRoiban  ?
[18:06] <adiroiban> Kangarooo: please use the chat channel
[18:06] <charlie-tca> Kangarooo: ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[18:06] <adiroiban> and check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[18:06] <Kangarooo> yes I came here from that link
[18:06] <adiroiban> Second, let's see what do I (we) mean by LoCo resources.
[18:06] <tgm4883> adiroiban, jcastro set +m  ?
[18:07] <adiroiban> They consist of all kind of things that can you your LoCo do it's job or achieve a specific goal.
[18:07] <adiroiban> LoCo resources can consist of people, computers, printers, web presence, friends ... don't think only at material things like a server or a printer. As you will find out, friends are invaluable resources for your LoCo.
[18:07] <adiroiban> I will try to touch some of the main resources for your LoCo and after that I hope we will have time for running a questions and answers session.
[18:08] <adiroiban> Also if you are already running a LoCo team, feel free to share best practices with the rest of us :) We'll be very happy to hear from you and this session will have a part dedicate to this.
[18:08] <adiroiban> OK. So let's start. Number 1. People.
[18:08] <adiroiban> Any LoCo should start it's activity by finding people willing to help with various LoCo actions. People are one of the most hard to find resources and you should never stop looking after great people to join your LoCo.
[18:09] <adiroiban> When you are starting, or restarting a LoCo, don't be disappointed if nobody will answer to your first call.
[18:09] <adiroiban>  Try to keep the LoCo active, and people will join you on the road.
[18:09] <adiroiban> Even if you are only one or two persons try to fix some goals according to your capabilities.
[18:09] <adiroiban> Don't set the goals to high
[18:09] <adiroiban> and start with baby steps :)
[18:10] <adiroiban> Also be prepare to lead by examples, most people will be reluctant at first, but once they will see that things get moving you will gain their trust and will start helping the LoCo.
[18:11] <adiroiban> once your team gets some people you shoud start building a web presence
[18:11] <adiroiban> if at first nobody will join you
[18:11] <adiroiban> don't despair and start some activities
[18:12] <adiroiban> and start working at the web presence
[18:12] <mfitzhugh>  /LOG OPEN -targets #ubuntu-classroom ~/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-%Y-%m-%d
[18:12] <mfitzhugh> oops! sorry
[18:12] <adiroiban> QUESTION: what is the purpose and duties of LoCo teams?
[18:13] <adiroiban> LoCo teams should help promove Ubuntu into your local comunity
[18:13] <adiroiban> you can do release parties,
[18:13] <adiroiban> install parties
[18:13] <adiroiban> make radio or tv shows
[18:13] <adiroiban> dedicated to Ubuntu and free software
[18:14] <adiroiban> there is not a specific set of actions of duties
[18:14] <adiroiban> each team is free to do what it consider is the best way they can help Ubuntu
[18:14] <adiroiban> ok. I will continue with information about creating a web presence for your team
[18:15] <adiroiban>  Building your LoCo web presence.
[18:15] <adiroiban> n many cases, creating a web presence should be the first thing to do for your LoCo.
[18:15] <adiroiban> You can chose a static or a dynamic website. On the Ubuntu Wiki you can find some template that can help you with building the website: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates
[18:15] <adiroiban> While creating your LoCo website , always check the legal part of using Ubuntu logo and trademark.
[18:16] <adiroiban> Don't forget to mention that your loco is not affiliated with Canonical.
[18:16] <adiroiban> Also, if you will create a logo for your LoCo, please check with the Canonical Trademark Policy.
[18:16] <adiroiban> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[18:17] <adiroiban> Please consult the Trademark Policy and make sure you are not breaking are law :D
[18:17] <adiroiban> There were a lot of discussion about trademark and I will like to stress out this part
[18:18] <dohkogt> o/
[18:18] <adiroiban> If you chose to use drupal for building your website take a look at the Ubuntu LoCo Drupal Theme
[18:18] <adiroiban> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal-theme .
[18:18] <adiroiban> There is also a dedicated channel #ubuntu-drupal
[18:18] <adiroiban> dohkogt: please use the -chat channel
[18:18] <adiroiban> The main goal for creating a loco website should be to create a web presence for your team.
[18:19] <adiroiban> Ubuntu and Canonical already have a strong web presence so dedicated huge sections of you website to Canonical and Ubuntu will not be of much help.
[18:19] <adiroiban> I'm not saying that you should not mention Ubuntu and Canonical, not at all, but try to focus on your LoCo.
[18:19] <adiroiban> Describe the team, create a webpage listing current  activities and goals, a page dedicated to past activites, a page listing past and current members.
[18:20] <adiroiban> The most important part of the website should be the one describing you other people can contact and interact with the team.
[18:20] <adiroiban> Don't forget to put some pictures from your past activities. People love them and a picture is worth thousand words :)
[18:21] <adiroiban> feel free to ask questions about the loco website and trademark and legalese stuff
[18:21] <adiroiban> zaidka: adiroiban, QUESTION: Maintaining a LoCo team sounds like it needs a lot of money. Does Ubuntu support that? If not, what's the benefit for the LoCo teams to financially support it?
[18:22] <adiroiban> You can see working in a LoCo team as a way to give back something to Ubuntu
[18:23] <adiroiban> The web presence should not cost a lot
[18:23] <adiroiban> you can ask for hosting from the Ubuntu Community
[18:23] <adiroiban> but I suggest to try finding a locol hosting company, willing to sponsor with the hosting of your website
[18:24] <adiroiban> akgraner: QUESTION:  While reviewing the trademark and other legal issues once a LoCo thinks they have all their ducks in a row is there a person who can look over it to make sure it's good to go before a LoCo goes live with a website?
[18:25] <adiroiban> You can ask the opinion of some Canonical stuff
[18:25] <adiroiban> but this is a time consuming job
[18:25] <adiroiban> try to compli with the policy according to your understanding
[18:25] <adiroiban> if something is not ok, someone will warn you
[18:25] <adiroiban> don't worry, you will not get into jail or receive a fine
[18:25] <adiroiban> or something like that
[18:27] <adiroiban> the website should be a static part of your loco activities
[18:27] <adiroiban> don't limit your loco action
[18:28] <adiroiban> the loco website should be a way to help your loco activities
[18:28] <adiroiban> not an activity by itself
[18:28] <adiroiban> Keeping people in touch should be a main concern while running the team.
[18:28] <adiroiban> You should consider both online and offline communication.
[18:28] <adiroiban> Online communication could help you if the community is a covering a wide geographic area.
[18:29] <adiroiban> I will start with the online communication channels
[18:29] <adiroiban> as they are one of the easiest to obtain
[18:29] <adiroiban> tradition communication channels include mailing lists and IRC channels
[18:30] <adiroiban> https://lists.ubuntu.com/
[18:30] <adiroiban> here you can see a list of other loco mailing list
[18:30] <adiroiban> and info about how to get your list
[18:31] <adiroiban> for the irc channel, try starting a channel named #ubuntu-CC (country/city code)
[18:31] <adiroiban> "moder" communication channels include twiter and blogs
[18:32] <jonnor>  /j #ubuntu-no
[18:32] <adiroiban> also there is a good idea to hang in your country ubuntu channel
[18:33] <adiroiban> rather than the global #ubuntu
[18:33] <adiroiban> also consider using identi.ca and join the ubuntu channel from identi.ca :)
[18:34] <adiroiban> even if online communication is easy to achive
[18:35] <adiroiban> you and your loco should try to create mean for offline meetings and communitions
[18:35] <adiroiban> for example meet in a town
[18:35] <adiroiban> at a conference
[18:35] <adiroiban> of other events
[18:36] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
[18:36] <adiroiban> if you plan to do an event at a confernce, don't forget about the above webpage
[18:37] <adiroiban> also your LoCo can request a special CD pack from here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoGettingCds
[18:37] <adiroiban> In case you are running a city or small area community , then creating offline meeting will be a lot easier.
[18:37] <adiroiban> Othere wise I suggest to "hijack" other event for creating loco meetings
[18:38] <adiroiban> Like I said, conferences or lan parties should be great events for meeting people
[18:38] <adiroiban> and exchanging ideas
[18:38] <adiroiban> If your team grows big you can consider creating a dedicated planet for member of your loco team or your local community.
[18:39] <adiroiban> Here  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates you can find an Ubuntu template for PlanetPlanet.
[18:39] <adiroiban> on the same https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates you will find some thems for forums or discussion board
[18:39] <adiroiban> boards
[18:40] <adiroiban> last but not least , friends are one of the most valuable resource for you and your team
[18:40] <adiroiban> There is not to much I can share with you regarding this, but don't forget that friend are invaluable resources for you and for your LoCo :)
[18:41] <adiroiban> For example a local radio dj can help you with some advertising for your Ubuntu Release Party. A friend at the local copy/print shop can help you with some posters/stickers... etc
[18:41] <adiroiban> OK. Like you could read above, I tried to share with you some of the best practices I gather while running the Romanian LoCo team.
[18:42] <adiroiban> rrnwexec: QUESTION: What would you consider "best practices" for marketing a LoCo?
[18:42] <adiroiban> Try to make your LoCo team useful for your community
[18:42] <adiroiban> for example create a useful support forum
[18:43] <adiroiban> then everyone will talk about it
[18:43] <adiroiban> and will know it is runned by the LoCo team
[18:43] <adiroiban> also be part of all major free software events in your area
[18:43] <adiroiban> this will help your loco being know in the area
[18:44] <adiroiban> but in my opinion the best "marketing" strategy for your LoCo is by doing useful things for your community
[18:45] <adiroiban> for example the Romanial Loco has translated a big part of the Ubuntu and GNOMe documentation and Ubuntu Training Course
[18:45] <adiroiban> and people start using those materials in schools
[18:45] <adiroiban> in this way, young people find about our loco team
[18:46] <adiroiban>  rrnwexec: QUESTION: Any thoughts about how best to harmonize/partner with local Linux User Groups who aren't necessarily interested in Ubuntu, but are interested in GNU/Linux and freedom?
[18:46] <adiroiban> good question
[18:46] <adiroiban> you should first have a physical talk with the leaders of those communities
[18:47] <adiroiban> and exchange some idea about what you can do
[18:47] <adiroiban> It's not always easy as people are proud about their own community
[18:48] <adiroiban> so you should have a wise chat and explain them that a colloboration will help both communities
[18:48] <adiroiban> I think that for collaborating with other groups/lugs
[18:49] <adiroiban> you should first meet those people
[18:49] <adiroiban> as the online chat is so cold
[18:49] <adiroiban> other than that I don't know what to say
[18:49] <adiroiban> this is what I done in Romania
[18:50] <adiroiban> after meeting people from other communities we start working togheer
[18:50] <adiroiban> before that there were only flame wars :D
[18:50] <adiroiban> the collaboration should be bases on trust
[18:51] <adiroiban> so you must assure that your Loco is trusted by other communities
[18:51] <adiroiban> Is there anyone willing to share some best practices withing his/her LoCo team?
[18:51] <adiroiban> QUESTION: How proficient should I be before I consider starting a LoCo? Can a LoCo be a "learn as we go" project, or should it have at least one wildly skilled member?
[18:52] <adiroiban> you should learn as you go
[18:52] <adiroiban> we learn something new everyday
[18:52] <adiroiban> if you have a skilled member it will help a lot
[18:53] <adiroiban> but this does not mean that an unskiles person can do a great job and improve it's skils over time
[18:53] <adiroiban> if you don't have experience try to set some small goals
[18:53] <adiroiban> and ask for help from other teams
[18:53] <adiroiban> we have the #ubuntu-locoteams
[18:54] <adiroiban> and the mailing loco contact mailinglist
[18:54] <adiroiban> feel free to join and ask for help
[18:54] <adiroiban> as there are a lot of knowledgable persons there
[18:55] <adiroiban> rrnwexec: ADVICE: Best practice in Vancouver... treat all members equally. Don't get all hung up on organization and bureaucracy. The best ideas usually come from the new members.
[18:55] <adiroiban>  rrnwexec: ADVICE: Best practice in Vancouver... Constantly look for ways to keep long-time members energized. This helps prevent the attrition issue that has fallen on other Linux communities.
[18:55] <adiroiban> lukeen: QUESTION: how many people should a loco have? is there a minimum? whats average? what makes sense?
[18:55] <adiroiban> depending of your community
[18:56] <adiroiban> there are small or big communities
[18:56] <adiroiban> but don't judge a loco by it's number
[18:56] <adiroiban> jonnor: QUESTION: Communities usually centers around something. Apart from FOSS/Ubuntu, what does LoCos usually center around?
[18:56] <adiroiban> yes. People
[18:57] <adiroiban> like I said , the FOSS/Ubuntu should be a way to help people from your local community
[18:57] <adiroiban> this is what local communities are all about
[18:57] <adiroiban> it's like helping your neighbour
[18:58] <adiroiban> ok.
[18:58] <adiroiban> thank you very much for your presence and attention
[18:58] <koolhead17> ?
[18:58]  * goshawk hugs adiroiban
[18:58] <adiroiban> I think we whould end this session
[18:59] <adiroiban> and let's prepare for the wonderful Ubuntu Doc Day
[18:59] <JPohlmann> adiroiban: Well done :)
[18:59] <adiroiban> which is about to start
[18:59] <akgraner> Thanks adiroiban!
[18:59]  * Mean-Machine shakes adiroiban's hand
[18:59] <Mean-Machine> nice one
[19:01] <DougieRichardson> Hi everyone and welcome to Docs Day
[19:02] <DougieRichardson> We've got five slots today and hope to cover most everything that the Documentation Team does
[19:02] <DougieRichardson> I'll start by introducing myself
[19:03] <DougieRichardson> I'm Dougie and up until I joined the Doc's team I'd had no experience at all with writing documentation or using DocBook
[19:04] <DougieRichardson> I maintain the Internet and Networking sections of the System Help but help out in other areas too
[19:04] <mib_0oi9gt> is the q and a with mark over?
[19:04] <DougieRichardson> There are five sessions tonight - an intro
[19:04] <DougieRichardson> Translations
[19:05] <DougieRichardson> A session on adding and working with the community help wiki
[19:05] <DougieRichardson> Getting the docs and using Bzr
[19:05] <DougieRichardson> and lastly working with DocBook
[19:05] <DougieRichardson> DocBook is an XML markup language that is used not only in Ubuntu's help but upstream too
[19:06] <DougieRichardson> Documentation in Ubuntu is split into two main areas
[19:06] <DougieRichardson> The system help, which you access through Yelp
[19:06] <DougieRichardson> And the community contributed documentation which is available at http://help.ubuntu.com/community
[19:07] <DougieRichardson> There are two types because we want to offer a full range of help to everyone, which is where the wiki is useful
[19:07] <DougieRichardson> and having more commonly asked tasks available without an internet connection
[19:08] <DougieRichardson> Subjects such as connecting to the internet is obviously needed offline!
[19:09] <DougieRichardson> The system help is split into sections and is available for different flavours of Ubuntu
[19:09] <DougieRichardson> it is written using DocBook XML, which is a markup language.
[19:10] <DougieRichardson> We are often asked why we use this but there are advantages to it - it can be easily processed into other formats
[19:10] <DougieRichardson> Such as HTML and PDF
[19:10] <DougieRichardson> Which allows us to generate the same information for access on the internet
[19:11] <DougieRichardson> Upstream also uses the same format, so we can share our documentation upstream too.
[19:12] <DougieRichardson> The community documentation wiki is editable by anyone with a Launchpad account
[19:12] <DougieRichardson> The wiki is seperate to http:/wiki.ubuntu.com which is only for team use
[19:13] <DougieRichardson> Its an ideal place for new contributers to start, because it is very accessible and the syntax is simpler than XML
[19:14] <DougieRichardson> The documentation team is organised into three teams
[19:14] <DougieRichardson> Ubuntu documentation contributers
[19:15] <DougieRichardson> Who can: edit wiki pages, traige and report bugs, contribute patches and participate in the teams discussions
[19:15] <DougieRichardson> we particularly welcome discussion from new contributers so we can produce the sort of documentation that is actually asked for
[19:16] <DougieRichardson> We have Ubuntu documentation commiters, which are much the same as contributers except they have displayed understanding of the tool chain and have access to the ubuntu-docs package, so can commit changes.
[19:17] <DougieRichardson> Lastly, we have Ubuntu documentation wiki admins who again do the same as contributers but have displayed a strong understanding of the wiki (in particualr deletion and the effects of renaming pages) and have access to delete and rename pages.
[19:18] <DougieRichardson> Joining the team is easy - just apply on Launchpad and introduce yourself on the mailing list
[19:18] <DougieRichardson> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
[19:18] <DougieRichardson> and the ML is https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[19:19] <DougieRichardson> The team has members from all over the world so with difference in time zones tends to do most of its discussion via the mailing list.
[19:20] <DougieRichardson> We do hold meetings though whenever possible and anyon is welcome to join us on IRC #ubuntu-doc on this very server
[19:20] <DougieRichardson> So where do you get started?
[19:21] <DougieRichardson> The best place to start is by checking out current bugs
[19:21] <DougieRichardson> There are four pages used, one for each Ubuntu
[19:21] <DougieRichardson> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
[19:21] <DougieRichardson>       http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs
[19:21] <DougieRichardson>       http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
[19:21] <DougieRichardson>       http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/edubuntu-docs
[19:22] <DougieRichardson> Pick a bug, assign it to yourself and get fixing!
[19:22] <DougieRichardson> There are several guides available on our team site and there is the newly produced Playbook
[19:22] <DougieRichardson> (I'll cover this more later)
[19:23] <DougieRichardson> Fixing bugs is fairly straightforward, most bugs are simply typos or corrections for new versions
[19:24] <DougieRichardson> Once you have the source (which Matthew will cover at 2100 UTC)
[19:24] <DougieRichardson> You can look over the docs and change the errant strings.
[19:24] <DougieRichardson> What if you're more interested in the wiki?
[19:24] <DougieRichardson> There are a list of areas that need work in the Wiki
[19:25] <DougieRichardson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
[19:25] <DougieRichardson> Sorry, wrong: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
[19:26] <DougieRichardson> The wiki has a lot of pages that need cleaned up
[19:26] <DougieRichardson> There is a lot of information that should be moved from the team wiki to the help wiki
[19:26] <DougieRichardson> Articles that need expanding
[19:27] <DougieRichardson> And we're always keen to integrate some of the fantastic howtos and guides that are available on the Ubuntu Forums into the help wiki
[19:28] <DougieRichardson> This release cycle, we have three new initiatives to announce too.
[19:29] <DougieRichardson> First, we are producing a series of "Playbooks", single A4 PDF covering our tool chain and processes
[19:29] <DougieRichardson> The first is available and has already been used by new members to submit patches!
[19:30] <DougieRichardson> Its available from my personal web site at the moment and once the others are available will be moved onto Launchpad and linked from the team site: http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
[19:31] <DougieRichardson> I'd love it if this was passed around as much as possible, even better if it was printed out and distributed at LoCo events, or your work/college wherever.
[19:31] <DougieRichardson> We are now accepting submissions for larger articles as plain text without markup.
[19:32] <DougieRichardson> An Ubuntu Documentation Commiter will wrap it in XML and push it to the branch.
[19:32] <DougieRichardson> We appreciate that not everyone has the time or interest to learn XML so we're happy to offer this for large submissions.
[19:33] <DougieRichardson> We are running a series of IRC lessons
[19:33] <DougieRichardson> The first of which will be announced soon on our mailing list and on the Planet.
[19:34] <DougieRichardson> I'll be taking a bug on Launchpad and go through all the steps to fix it in slow time, providing a recap sheet at the end.
[19:34] <DougieRichardson> These lessons will be staggered so that different time zones can benefit too.
[19:35] <DougieRichardson> Lastly we are introducing "Doc Days" - much likethe QA team has done, we will nominate an area, particularly of the wiki and try and achieve as much community participation as possible in that area on a single day.
[19:36] <DougieRichardson> Again this will be announced soon via the mailing list and via the Planet
[19:37] <DougieRichardson> There is also a large push towards revamping the current switching from windows guide to a new installation guide
[19:38] <DougieRichardson> Any contributions to this effort will be very much appreciated, where we intend to try and gather the most common installation problems
[19:38] <DougieRichardson> and cover them - so we need as many installation problems as possible reported!
[19:39] <DougieRichardson> Submit any problems you've found to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide#Common%20problems%20for%20the%20Troubleshooting%20section
[19:40] <DougieRichardson> So that pretty much wraps up the introduction to Docs Day but before I take any questions, I'd like to recap on contacting us:
[19:40] <DougieRichardson> Wiki Page    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[19:40] <DougieRichardson> Launchpad    https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
[19:40] <DougieRichardson> Mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[19:40] <DougieRichardson> List archive https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/
[19:40] <DougieRichardson> IRC          #ubuntu-doc on irc.freenode.net
[19:41] <DougieRichardson> and that we are going to be running IRC lessons, Playbooks, Doc Days and a new installation guide.
[19:41] <DougieRichardson> Lastly, please, please grab a copy of the playbook
[19:41] <DougieRichardson> http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
[19:42] <DougieRichardson> We're always glas to accept new contributers and contributions, no matter how small - there is a very good chance that someone is looking for the information you have!
[19:42] <DougieRichardson> So I'll move on to Q&A - please, ask away!
[19:44] <DougieRichardson> Question: Hi Dinda, hopefully, given our new initiatives thats a yes but I think we need to integrate these ideas fully
[19:45] <dinda> QUESTION: The "Getting Involved" section of ubuntu.com points non-technical users who wan to contribute to the docs team.  Do you really think this is the right first place for new non-technical contributors?
[19:45] <dinda> repeating for the logs
[19:46] <dinda> QUESTION: Could you point us to the place to apply for membership in the doc team on Launchpad?
[19:47] <DougieRichardson> Answer: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
[19:48] <mfitzhugh> Not to be dumb, but I'm at that page and don't see a "join" link
[19:48] <dinda> QUESTION:  Can you explain the difference between the Core group and students group?
[19:49] <DougieRichardson> Apologies, it should have been https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc
[19:50] <DougieRichardson> The team name for new contributers is still "students"
[19:50] <DougieRichardson> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-students
[19:52] <dinda> dinda: QUESTION:  How many new contributors would you like to see coming on board each month?  release cycle?
[19:53] <DougieRichardson> Answer: I'd like to see as many as possible!
[19:53] <DougieRichardson> Answer: It depends in which area people would like to help.
[19:54] <DougieRichardson> QUESTION:  Is there a better time to jump into documentation?  i.e. the days before a release are prolly not the best
[19:54] <dinda> dinda: QUESTION:  Is there a better time to jump into documentation?  i.e. the days before a release are prolly not the best
[19:55] <DougieRichardson> Answer: Anytime is fine, as there's always bugs to fix but you're right - the start of the new development cycle is the ideal place because it allows more time to complete IRC training and improving our tool chain
[19:56] <mdke> so *now* is the ideal time!
[19:56] <DougieRichardson> But at the end of the release cycle we need as many eyes on as possible to check over the docs
[19:56] <DougieRichardson> Yes, like I said - please grab a playbook, join the team and we'll be happy to help
[19:58] <DougieRichardson> QUESTION: so, as I see students involved in bug-hunt process mostly?
[19:59] <DougieRichardson> Answer: No, we want to see students involved in fixing bugs, asking questions and making patches!
[20:00] <DougieRichardson> Bug hunting is very important - especially end of cycle but with six months in hand we've can cover our tool chain and bring students up to speed.
[20:00] <DougieRichardson> OK, I'm eating into mdke and adiroiban's time now so I'll finish off the Q&A
[20:01] <mdke> great job DougieRichardson
[20:01] <DougieRichardson> If anyone has any other question, you can contact the team or mail me direct through Launchpad.
[20:01] <dinda> Thanks Dougie - great job!
[20:01] <DougieRichardson> I'll finish with one link though: http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
[20:02] <adiroiban> great session :)
[20:02] <adiroiban> next session will be about Translating Ubuntu Docs
[20:02] <DougieRichardson> Thanks very much everyone
[20:02] <bencrisford1> cheers dougie
[20:03] <adiroiban> don't forget about #ubuntu-doc channel :)
[20:04] <adiroiban> ok
[20:04] <adiroiban> My name is Adi Roiban, and I am here as a member of Ubuntu Translation Community.
[20:04] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdiRoiban
[20:04] <adiroiban> I will do this session together with Matthew East (mdke), who is coordinating Ubuntu Docs.
[20:04] <mdke> hi everyone
[20:05] <adiroiban> We will start with a short presentation, followed by a question and answer session.
[20:05] <adiroiban> Beside this session, feel free to contact us for any question related to Ubuntu Docs Translation Process.
[20:05] <adiroiban> In the following session, when I mention Ubuntu Docs I will refer to all Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu Docs
[20:05] <adiroiban> First off all I will do a short introduction to Ubuntu Localization Teams and Translation process, as you can not translate the Ubuntu Docs without being aware of these things.
[20:06] <adiroiban> Ubuntu Documentation is translated using the Launchpad Translations web tools
[20:06] <adiroiban> Rosetta is the codename for Launchpad Translations
[20:06] <adiroiban> You can find out more about using Launchpad Translations by reading the Launchpad help pages:
[20:06] <adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
[20:07] <adiroiban> Everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu and Ubuntu Docs into his/her language.
[20:07] <adiroiban> You can start translating Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu docs by following one of these links :
[20:07] <adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/ubuntu-docs
[20:07] <adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/kubuntu-docs
[20:07] <adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs
[20:07] <adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/edubuntu-docs
[20:07] <adiroiban> When I said that everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu and Ubuntu Docs into his/her language, I mean that everyone can add suggestion / possible translations for an original text
[20:08] <adiroiban> In Ubuntu, we have Ubuntu Localization teams, that act as Translation Quality Assurance Team.
[20:08] <adiroiban> They will review and approve suggestions.
[20:08] <adiroiban> If you are an active translator and you are doing a great translation job you can request to join the Ubuntu .
[20:09] <adiroiban> In the following list, you can find the group appointed for your language:
[20:09] <adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
[20:09] <adiroiban> For any questions related to the translations of Ubuntu docs into your language, please contact the team appointed to your language,
[20:10] <adiroiban> Also freel free to join the general Ubuntu Translation mailinglist https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
[20:10] <adiroiban> and #ubuntu-translators and #ubuntu-doc channel
[20:11] <adiroiban> Like I said, please consult the Launchpad Translations help pages, to find out how you can use it
[20:11] <adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
[20:12] <adiroiban> Now let's go back to things specific to translating Ubuntu Docs.
[20:12] <adiroiban> First of all you should know that Ubuntu-Docs are developed using the DocBook format (an xml based format).
[20:12] <adiroiban> We have a script for converting from XML to PO files.
[20:12] <adiroiban> we do this, because Launchpad Translation does not support direct translations of XML files
[20:13] <adiroiban> After generating the POT files, they are imported in Launchpad Translations
[20:13] <adiroiban> by doing that, they will be available to translation
[20:14] <adiroiban> and people from around the word will be translating Ubuntu Docs into their language.
[20:14] <adiroiban> From time to time, someone , manualy export those translations from Rosetta and run another script for converting from PO back to XML.
[20:14] <adiroiban> Now from each POT file, we will have a new XML file for each language.
[20:15] <adiroiban> In Launchpad Translation, POT files are called "templates"
[20:15] <adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs/+pots/about-xubuntu
[20:16] <adiroiban> this would be the about-xubuntu template in Launchpad
[20:16] <adiroiban> also when translating Ubuntu Docs in Launchpad you will have to check the version
[20:16] <adiroiban> of the ubuntu-docs
[20:16] <adiroiban> in the example above the about-xubuntu template, is translated for Jaunty
[20:17] <adiroiban> each Ubuntu version , has a new set of Ubuntu Docs
[20:17] <adiroiban> From time to time, someone , manualy export those translations from Rosetta and run another script for converting from PO back to XML. Now we will have a new XML file for each language.
[20:18] <adiroiban> When we have the XML files, Matt (mdke) use them for creating an update to the ubuntu-docs packages.
[20:18] <adiroiban> They are then pushed to the Ubuntu repositories and users will be able to install into their computers.
[20:19] <adiroiban> While translating Ubuntu Docs you will need to take care of various things, specific to translating xml files.
[20:19] <adiroiban> I tried to create a Guide for helping you with translating Ubuntu Docs. You can find it here: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/Guide
[20:19] <adiroiban> Before you start translating Ubuntu Docs, please read this guide.
[20:20] <adiroiban> While translating Ubuntu Docs, there is a great chance of making mistakes that will generate in a bad xml file.
[20:20] <adiroiban> Launchpad Translations is not able to detect the translations errors from XML files
[20:21] <adiroiban> To help validate the Ubuntu Docs translations I'm maintaining a webpage dedicated to Ubuntu Docs errors.
[20:21] <adiroiban> From time to time I'm exporting the translations from Launchpad and generated the XML files in order to find errors.
[20:21] <adiroiban> I'm announcing the updated on the Ubuntu Translators Mailinglist
[20:21] <adiroiban> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
[20:21] <adiroiban> For example this is the Ubuntu Docs Jaunty report page:
[20:21] <adiroiban> http://l10n.ubuntu.tla.ro/ubuntu-docs-jaunty/
[20:22] <adiroiban> While translating Ubuntu Docs you may find errors in the original text.
[20:22] <adiroiban> Please report those errors here:
[20:22] <adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
[20:22] <adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs
[20:22] <adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
[20:22] <adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/edubuntu-docs
[20:23] <adiroiban> Please remember that the Launchpad Translation Guide is your friend
[20:23] <adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/Guide
[20:23] <adiroiban> :)
[20:24] <adiroiban> Beside generating XML files, you can use translation for creating HTML files. You can use the HTML file for providing a translated version of http://help.ubuntu.com
[20:24] <adiroiban> There is a dedicated Wiki page talking about how to work with the Ubuntu Docs translations:
[20:24] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
[20:25] <adiroiban> There you can find all steps for generating Ubuntu docs on your computer and how you can customize Ubuntu Docs for your needs.
[20:25] <adiroiban> Beside the Ubuntu Documentation, you can consider translating Ubuntu Desktop Course intro your language.
[20:25] <adiroiban> Unfortunately the translation of Ubuntu Desktop Course is not yet available using Launchpad Translations.
[20:26] <adiroiban> You can find out more about the Ubuntu Desktop Course by visiting the dedicated wiki page:
[20:26] <adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training
[20:26] <adiroiban> I am working at making Ubuntu Training text available using Rosetta and you can contact me or talk to the other translators via the Ubuntu Translators Mailinglist.
[20:27] <adiroiban> Ubuntu Desktop Course is part of Ubuntu Training
[20:27] <adiroiban> and it's also based on XML files
[20:27] <adiroiban> so translating them is similar with Ubuntu Docs
[20:28] <adiroiban> also you can contact dinda for questions regarding Ubuntu Training
[20:29] <adiroiban> When translating Ubuntu Docs, sometimes you will have to translated documentation for user interfaces that are not translated yet
[20:29] <adiroiban> my advise is to translate firs the user interface
[20:30] <adiroiban> and where you are done, come back and continue with translating the documentation
[20:30] <adiroiban> so, alway translate the user interface first
[20:30] <adiroiban> and while translating the documentation, always check the way user interface is translated
[20:31] <adiroiban> in this way you can improve the consistency
[20:31] <adiroiban> and will avoid the situation when documentation is translated using some words
[20:31] <adiroiban> and the user interface using other words
[20:31] <adiroiban> novice user, the one who need the translation and documentation, are always confused
[20:32] <adiroiban> even of a small invariance
[20:32] <adiroiban> ok
[20:32] <adiroiban> that were my tips for translationg Ubuntu Docs
[20:32] <adiroiban> we can continue with the questions and answers part
[20:33] <adiroiban> mdke ?
[20:33] <adiroiban> it this ok?
[20:33] <adiroiban> is this ok?
[20:33] <mdke> absolutely, I was thinking that I would like to chip in with some comments, but you have been absolutely exhaustive! Thanks adiroiban
[20:33] <mdke> let's take some questions now
[20:34] <mdke> yeager> QUESTION: when will it be possible to list and submit translated screenshots for ubuntu-docs?
[20:34] <mdke> ANSWER: the ubuntu-docs project doesn't currently use screenshots. Translation of screenshots is generally done manually in documentation, as far as I know, but fortunately we haven't had to deal with that issue!
[20:35] <mdke> < dinda> QUESTION:  Do you have any tips for making the Desktop course easier to translate?
[20:35] <mdke> I'm not really familiar with the format of the course, but adiroiban may know more
[20:35] <adiroiban> We should try to find ways of including Desktop course in Rosetta
[20:35] <mdke> I'd recommend the use of the xml2po program over other similar toolchains though, in my experience it works the best
[20:36] <adiroiban> dinda: we should see some improvement in Rosetta that will help us improve the way we do translations
[20:36] <mdke> dinda: you may find some tips on the process we use here though: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
[20:37] <adiroiban> after the next relase of Launchpad I will contact you for enabling the translations of Ubuntu Training materials
[20:38] <adiroiban> QUESTION: adiroiban do you have the Desktop course in PO format?
[20:38] <adiroiban> yes. but it's not updated.
[20:38] <adiroiban> in the next days I will update them and announce them via the ubuntu-translators mailing list
[20:38] <adiroiban> and planet.ubuntu.com :)
[20:39] <adiroiban> tpfennig: QUESTION: How well is cooperation working with upstream projects like GNOME? Any plans to work together more tightly?
[20:40] <adiroiban> ubuntu-docs are only covering ubuntu specific things
[20:40] <adiroiban> and gnome-user-docs is part of ubuntu-docs
[20:40] <mdke> we reuse entirely upstream translations for gnome-user-docs, but it's up to Ubuntu translators to send translations upstream if they work on them in Launchpad
[20:41] <adiroiban> i don't know if there are plans to work more tightly, from my point of view both team are doing a great job
[20:41] <adiroiban> and ubuntu-docs are integrated nicely with gnome-docs
[20:42] <adiroiban> my advice is to do gnome translations upstream: http://l10n.gnome.org/module/gnome-user-docs/
[20:43] <adiroiban> ok. any other questions ?
[20:44] <adiroiban> ok. thank you very much for your attention
[20:44] <adiroiban> you can always get in touch with us via the #ubuntu-doc  IRC channel
[20:45] <adiroiban> and ubuntu-doc mailing list
[20:49] <jcastro> everyone take a break for a bit, and we'll be back in 11 for the next session!
[21:00] <mdke> ok, I think perhaps we can get started with the next session
[21:02] <mdke> My name is Matthew East and I work with the Ubuntu Documentation Team
[21:02] <mdke> I'm going to be running this session with Connor Imes, Rocket2DMn, who works on the same team
[21:02] <mdke> The session is about the UBUNTU HELP WIKI
[21:03] <mdke> As those who have followed previous sessions know, we have five sessions today dealing with Ubuntu documentation. Two have already finished: an intro to the project, and translating documentation.
[21:03] <mdke> This session concentrates on one of the two main projects of the Ubuntu documentation team, the Ubuntu help wiki.
[21:03] <mdke> The last two sessions deal with the other main project, Ubuntu system documentation, which is the documentation that comes together with your Ubuntu desktop.
[21:04] <mdke> The last two sessions, which emmajane will be running, deal with the other main project of the team, Ubuntu system documentation, which is the documentation that comes together with your Ubuntu desktop.
[21:04] <mdke> Both the system documentation and the help wiki are found in two sections of the same website: help.ubuntu.com
[21:04] <mdke> The system documentation is found at https://help.ubuntu.com/
[21:05] <mdke> The help wiki can be found here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
[21:05] <Rocket2DMn> The help wiki is also known as the Community Docs
[21:05] <mdke> By the way, feel free to shout my nick in #ubuntu-classroom-chat if I am going too fast
[21:05] <mdke> I'm going to use some dashes to separate different sections of the talk, so that it should be easier to read for those reviewing the log of the session
[21:06] <mdke> ---
[21:06] <mdke> I'll start by explaining what a "wiki" is.
[21:06] <mdke> A wiki is a website which anyone can edit.
[21:06] <mdke> It's a collaborative website that seeks to collect the knowledge of a large group of people.
[21:06] <mdke> The most famous example of course is wikipedia.
[21:06] <mdke> The Ubuntu community has several wikis. Among those are the team wiki (wiki.ubuntu.com) and the help wiki (help.ubuntu.com/community).
[21:07] <mdke> The difference is that the team wiki is used for coordination of the different teams in the Ubuntu community, while the help wiki is for users looking for documentation.
[21:07] <mdke> ---
[21:07] <mdke> Because anyone can edit the help wiki, quite a lot of attention is needed by volunteers to keep the wiki tidy, and to test the accuracy of material that is submitted.
[21:07] <mdke> It means that the wiki is a much more free-flowing resource than the system documentation, which go through a more rigorous process of quality control.
[21:08] <mdke> The wiki also has no limitations about how many subjects it can deal with, so we have much more information there than in the system documentation.
[21:08] <mdke> That can mean that it is less reliable, but it also means that it is an excellent resource for searching for the answers to more difficult problems.
[21:08] <mdke> It also means that it is a great place to start contributing - you don't need any special privileges to jump in and help out
[21:09] <mdke> Information produced on the wiki can also be road tested there so that it is later introduced into the system documentation.
[21:09] <mdke> ---
[21:09] <mdke> Ok, now I'm going to cover how to contribute to the help wiki.
[21:09] <mdke> We have a basic reference page which covers all the issues needed to contribute, which is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide - everyone contributing should have a look at that page.
[21:10] <mdke> Let me be very clear about one thing straight away - if you would like to contribute, and can't find the information you are curious about on that page - feel free to ask the Documentation team.
[21:10] <mdke> I'll give out the contact details towards the end of the session
[21:10] <mdke> Right, the first step is registering. It's necessary to have a Launchpad account in order to edit the wiki. This is to protect against automatic spam on the wiki.
[21:10] <mdke> Having a Launchpad account is pretty much a prerequisite for contributing in any way to the Ubuntu community, so you should definitely get one if you haven't already!
[21:11] <mdke> You can register for Launchpad here: https://launchpad.net (see the top right hand corner)
[21:11] <mdke> Once registered, you can log into the help wiki by visiting the wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/) and clicking the "Login to Edit" text in the top right hand corner. This takes you to Launchpad, and you then enter your details and click "Continue".
[21:12] <mdke> ---
[21:12] <mdke> Once logged in, you can edit the page that you are viewing. The edit toolbar appears at the bottom of the screen when you click "Show editing options" in the bottom right.
[21:12] <mdke> To edit a page, click "Edit" in the toolbar. That shows you the "markup", or "raw text" that forms part of the wiki.
[21:13] <mdke> The markup is there to permit you to use formatting on the page. It's very similar to the wikipedia markup, but with some differences (we use different software to wikipedia)
[21:13] <mdke> Don't be scared by it, it's very simple and easy to learn. A simple edit to a page doesn't require any knowledge of markup, because you can just scroll to the relevant paragraph, and amend it, but I'll deal quickly with some basics now.
[21:14] <mdke> To create a title, we use this format:
[21:14] <mdke> = This is a heading =
[21:14] <mdke> You can also create sub-headings, by increasing the number of = signs, like this:
[21:14] <mdke> == This is a sub-heading ==
[21:14] <mdke> Paragraphs are very simple - you just leave a white line in between different paragraphs, like this:
[21:15] <mdke> This is the first paragraph
[21:15] <mdke> This is the second paragraph
[21:15] <mdke> (imagine we have a white line between the above two lines, I can't do it on irc)
[21:15] <Rocket2DMn> like this:
[21:15] <Rocket2DMn> paragraph 1
[21:15] <Rocket2DMn>
[21:15] <Rocket2DMn> paragraph 2
[21:15] <mdke> nice! Thanks Rocket2DMn
[21:16] <mdke> To use text in italics, you put two inverted commas around the text in italics, like this:
[21:16] <mdke> This is a ''very good'' sentence.
[21:16] <Rocket2DMn> (apostrophes)
[21:16] <mdke> In that example, the words "very good" will appear in italics
[21:17] <mdke> sorry, apostrophes, yep
[21:17] <mdke> To use text in bold, you put three inverted commas around the text in bold, like this:
[21:17] <mdke> sorry again, apostrophes
[21:17] <mdke> This is a '''very good''' sentence.
[21:17] <mdke> You get the idea, I hope :)
[21:18] <mdke> Bulleted lists can be created by using the star sign:
[21:18] <mdke>  * Point 1 on the list
[21:18] <mdke>  * Point 2 on the list
[21:18] <mdke> Numbered lists can be created by using the number 1:
[21:18] <mdke>  1. Number 1 on the list
[21:18] <mdke>  1. Number 2 on the list
[21:19] <Rocket2DMn> Note the space at the beginning of the line.  This is required.
[21:19] <mdke> That looks a bit confusing, but it enables the wiki to ensure that the numbering is automatically updated if you add a line in the middle
[21:19] <mdke> You can do the same with letters:
[21:19] <mdke>  a. Letter a on the list
[21:19] <mdke>  a. Letter b on the list
[21:19] <mdke> and so on.
[21:20] <mdke> Links can be created quite simply too. You use this format:
[21:20] <mdke> [[http://www.ubuntu.com|Ubuntu website]]
[21:20] <mdke> In that example, the link text is "Ubuntu website" and the link target is www.ubuntu.com
[21:20] <mdke> That's really all you need to know to contribute whole pages to the wiki!
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> The separator in the middle splits the link and the link text.
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> The character is a pipe, above the Enter key on most keyboards
[21:21] <mdke> unless you are from the UK, in which case it's down in the bottom left above \
[21:21] <mdke> :)
[21:21] <mdke> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Formatting for more detailed instructions about formatting on the wiki
[21:21] <mdke> I'd like to emphasise that you can contribute with very little experience of the markup at all, you should pick it up straight away and you can use the above page as a reference
[21:22] <mdke> We also have some writing style guidelines here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/WritingGuide
[21:22] <mdke> These give you some tips about the style which we'd like to be used on the wiki
[21:22] <mdke> Ok, I'll deal briefly with creating a whole new page
[21:23] <mdke> The easiest way to create a new page is simply to enter it's address in the address bar of your browser
[21:23] <mdke> so if you'd like to create the page called "LetsPractice", visit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LetsPractice
[21:24] <mdke> I should say first that we use a specific naming convention on the wiki, which is to use CamelCase spellings for the title - this is like Title Case, but without the space between the words
[21:24] <mdke> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/PageCreation for more information about choosing a name
[21:24] <mdke> Back to our example - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LetsPractice
[21:25] <mdke> If you visit that page, you'll see that the wiki is telling you that it doesn't exist yet
[21:25] <mdke> To create a new page, we have two options
[21:25] <mdke> The first is to create a blank page, which you do by clicking "Create new empty page"
[21:25] <mdke> The second is to create a page based on a template.
[21:26] <mdke> We use the "DocumentationTemplate" that you see on the left hand side. Clicking that will give you a new page with some suggested structure that you can use for a documentation page
[21:26] <mdke> ok, that's all for creating a page
[21:26] <mdke> for more information, please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/PageCreation
[21:27] <mdke> ---
[21:27] <mdke> Other than writing, once you have got used to the structure and guidelines of the wiki, you can also help a lot by helping to keep the wiki tidy.
[21:27] <mdke> We use "Tags" to keep the wiki tidy, and identify pages which need work in a particular area.
[21:27] <mdke> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag for more info
[21:28] <mdke> For an example of a tag in use, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Workstation
[21:28] <mdke> there you see a sign that the page deals with an unsupported version of Ubuntu
[21:28] <mdke> Tagging pages and cleaning up pages which already have tags is an amazingly useful way to contribute
[21:29] <mdke> I'd encourage people to have a read of the Tag page for more information
[21:29] <mdke> Users do not have permission on this wiki to delete or rename pages. Doing so can sometimes cause accidental, yet major, problems. This includes, but is not limited to, breaking links within the wiki itself and on the internet, as well as people's bookmarks. However, once you are familiar with the wiki, if you'd like to help out with its upkeep by deleting or renaming stray pages, you can apply to do so with the Ubuntu documentation team.
[21:29] <mdke> Again, I'll give out the contact details shortly
[21:30] <mdke> ---
[21:30] <mdke> Key tasks. The team has some particular key tasks to deal with. These are set out at this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
[21:31] <mdke> I'm very conscious that this page is not as clear or structured as it should be, so it's fundamental that if you have any questions about where to contribute - please ask
[21:31] <mdke> Over the next few days and weeks we'll be working a lot on focusing the team's efforts on specific tasks, so watch this space!
[21:32] <mdke> One particular task I'd mention which is a good place to help out, is by replacing the out of date "Categories" on the wiki with our new Tag system
[21:32] <mdke> That's detailed here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo/Tags
[21:32] <mdke> Another great task is to visit the pages which are marked for cleanup, and to tidy them up!
[21:32] <mdke> That's a never ending process...
[21:33] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: perhaps you could explain your "Summer of Documentation" initiative at this stage
[21:33] <Rocket2DMn> Sure
[21:34] <Rocket2DMn> Last summer we had a little effort to help get the help wiki up to date, and it became known as the Summer of Documentation
[21:34] <Rocket2DMn> It was initaited by the Beginners Team by members who also work with the doc team.  You can read about last year's here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki/SoD2008
[21:35] <Rocket2DMn> We will be doing it again this year, but it is not limited to Beginners Team members, it is for the whole community.
[21:35] <Rocket2DMn> It will be focused on Tasks that the ubuntu doc team has set forward, like making use of tags and cleaning up outdated pages
[21:36] <Rocket2DMn> The idea is to get users who otherwise may not know how to contribute involved
[21:36] <Rocket2DMn> Let the doc team know if you are interested
[21:36] <mdke> ---
[21:37] <mdke> Last, but not least - communication
[21:37] <mdke> To get in touch with the Documentation Team, you can contact us via the mailing list or on irc chat
[21:37] <mdke> the mailing list is<EMAIL_ADDRESS>you can sign up here - http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[21:37] <mdke> the irc channel in #ubuntu-doc on this network - feel free to join and hang around and ask questions
[21:38] <mdke> the channel is sometimes pretty quiet, depending on the time of day and the week, so don't be discouraged if you don't get a reply straight away - either hang around or send us an email
[21:38] <mdke> Full details about contacting the team are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
[21:38] <mdke> ---
[21:38] <mdke> That's the end of the presentation part of the session, feel free to ask any questions now in #ubuntu-classroom-chat or by private message to me
[21:39] <mdke> We'll do our best to answer
[21:40] <mdke> QUESTION: is there any separate group for "Summer of Documentation"?
[21:41] <Rocket2DMn> ANSWER: No, there is no separate listing of members.  The Beginners Team Wiki Focus Group who hosts the Summer of Documentation does not keep a separate listing of involved members.  This helps keep us working as tightly with the doc team as possible
[21:41] <Rocket2DMn> It's all one effort.
[21:45] <mdke> QUESTION: actually just working on our wiki, and nobody seems to know how to add photos into a post?
[21:45] <ebel> czajkowski: *ping*
[21:45] <mdke> adding photos or screenshots to a wiki page is quite easy
[21:45] <mdke> you add them as an attachment using the "Attachments" button on the edit toolbar
[21:46] <mdke> Some detailed step by step instructions are here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Screenshots
[21:47] <mdke> QUESTION: Is submitting fixes for documentation bugs the same as other packages?
[21:47] <mdke> ANSWER: in the case of bugs affecting the help wiki, it's a different process. You can simply log into the wiki and edit the page directly to fix the bug
[21:47] <mdke> in the case of bugs affecting the system documentation, we have a process which emmajane is going to describe for you in the next session :)
[21:52] <mdke> ok, that seems to be the end of the questions, so we'll take a short break of 5 minutes or so before we come back for the next session
[21:52] <mdke> feel free to contact the team if you have any questions about contributing
[21:57] <emmajane> XX:57 by my clock. We'll get started in a couple of minutes. Bio break now for those who need it!
[22:01] <emmajane> Hi everyone!
[22:01] <emmajane> In this next session I'm going to walk you through the very basics of using Bazaar to work with the Ubuntu System Documentation. Who's up for a little bit of version control?! :)
[22:02] <emmajane> crickets. :)
[22:02] <emmajane> more excitment over in the -chat channel, please
[22:02] <emmajane> who's ready for version control!? WOO!
[22:02] <emmajane> that's better. :)
[22:02] <emmajane> This session has several parts: (1) A little bit about Bazaar, (2) Installing Bazaar, (3) Using Bazaar for regular files (4) Downloading the system documentation, (5) Submitting your changes to the docs project and (6) Resources.
[22:03] <emmajane> I have the notes typed out if you are interested in reading ahead, please keep your questions to the topic at hand though, thanks. (just grabbing the pastebin URL)
[22:03] <emmajane> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/160234/
[22:04] <emmajane> mdke is going to start us off with some "high level" talk about the tools we're using for system documentation.
[22:04] <emmajane> take it away, mdke
[22:04] <mdke> thanks
[22:04] <mdke> I just wanted to explain briefly what we mean by "System Documentation"
[22:04] <mdke> in case anyone missed Dougie's Introduction session
[22:05] <mdke> basically what we mean is the documentation that Ubuntu and other Ubuntu flavours (Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu) include in their desktops
[22:05] <mdke> so in the case of Ubuntu, it's at System -> Help and Support
[22:05] <mdke> This documentation is "offline" so that any user of ubuntu can read it without going to the internet
[22:06] <mdke> It's also included online at https://help.ubuntu.com in identical form, in the case of Ubuntu
[22:06] <mdke> Given that the documentation is included in Ubuntu, we use some quality control processes to ensure that the material is carefully checked
[22:06] <mdke> a group of "committers" have access to add new material directly
[22:07] <mdke> and new contributors make requests for their changes to be approved
[22:07] <mdke> the system we use to manage this is called Bazaar, and it's what Emma will be concentrating on in this session
[22:07] <mdke> The documents themselves are written in a markup language called "Docbook", which is a bit like HTML
[22:08] <mdke> that's what Emma will talk about in the following session
[22:08] <emmajane> ok, thanks mdke
[22:09] <emmajane> Bazaar is "just" the storage tool for the system documentation. This talk applies to documentation and also anyone that wants to work with Ubuntu "code."
[22:09] <emmajane> Topic 1/6: A little bit about Bazaar
[22:09] <emmajane> Bazaar is a distributed version control system that Just Works. Bazaar adapts to the workflows you want to use, and it takes only a few minutes to try it out.
[22:10] <emmajane> Bazaar is used by all kinds of project teams to maintain all the changes that are made to the underlying code by each developer. In fact the code for the data base MySQL is stored in Bazaar! And Ubuntu is working towards putting 15,000 packages into Bazaar! These are HUGE projects!
[22:10] <emmajane> It can be used by real people too though. I like to think of myself as more of a "real person" than a "hardcore ninja developer." I use Bazaar because it's really good, but also because the support community is AMAZING. People have answered questions at all hours of the day in the IRC channel #bzr.
[22:10] <emmajane> Whether you're a hardcore ninja developer, or a real person, you can take advantage of version control for your work.
[22:10] <emmajane> (Apparently ninjas are real people too though.) ;)
[22:11] <emmajane> It can be useful to put all kinds of files under version control. For example: your configuration files, your resume, or any other kind of file that you might want to see a "historical" snapshot of.
[22:11] <emmajane> For example: I'm a freelance Web developer. I'm doing work on a client site and all of a sudden I get brand new files from the graphic designer that change everything. I could start a new folder, but that leaves a lot of junk lying around on my computer.
[22:11] <emmajane> Instead I use all the new files in my project (overwriting the old ones), but with Bazaar there is a secret "history" folder that allows me to go back and look at the old versions of the file whenever I want.
[22:11] <emmajane> I like to think of Bazaar as the biggest, baddest UNDO button my computer has ever known.
[22:12] <emmajane> I'm going to pause here and collect questions from #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 Question: i take it bazaar can also run on a personal computer with little setup effort?
[22:13] <emmajane> Absolutely! In fact we're going to set it up in the very next part of this talk.
 QUESTION: Can Bzr be used for text-based files?  or just html/xml?
[22:14] <emmajane> Bazaar can be used to create versions of any files. It is most effective with plain text files (like HTML, XML and configuration files), but it can also be used to store images too!
 Question: I'm using SVN at the moment... It's first time I heard about Bazaar. Why should I switch to it?
[22:15] <emmajane> TaNgO, Great question! If you like SVN, you should keep using it. If, however, you want to be able to work directly with the system documentation, having a rudimentary understanding of the basic bzr commands will make it a lot easier.
[22:15] <emmajane> TaNgO, there's also cool plugins that make Bazaar work with SVN.
 QUESTION: Why using Bazaar instead of a wiki?
[22:17] <emmajane> Bazaar has a more sophisticated versioning system than you can get in a Wiki. On top of that it's only recently that Wikis have been able to convert text into different formats. In some ways working with Bazaar and DocBook is a legacy system, but it also allows a greater degree of control on how the documents look in their final stage (e.g. PDF or HTML).
[22:17] <mdke> the tools to convert wiki material into docbook are a little bit incomplete at the moment
[22:18] <mdke> and as emmajane says, Bazaar allows more finely grained version control tools
[22:18] <mdke> but in the future, we will definitely keep looking at using a wiki for system documentation - I hope one day it will be possible
[22:19] <emmajane> Topic 2/6: Installing Bazaar
[22:19] <emmajane> I'm going to assume that everyone is already using Ubuntu?
[22:19] <emmajane> Is anyone on something OTHER than Ubuntu right now though? I know you might be secretly connected at work right now where you're forced to use something else...
[22:20] <emmajane> We will be working from the command line for most of this session. I am very comfortable at the command line so if I go too quickly, please jump up and down and tell me! I have used the convention of $ to mean start typing a command. If you look at your command line you will see that it ends with a $. Mine looks like this:
[22:20] <emmajane> emmajane@hum:~$
[22:20] <emmajane> If you are using GNOME you can open a new terminal window by navigating to:
[22:20] <emmajane> Applications (top left of your screen) -> Accessories -> Terminal.
[22:20] <emmajane> (GNOME is the default for Ubuntu)
[22:20] <emmajane> If you are using KDE you can open a new terminal window by navigating to:
[22:20] <emmajane> System -> Terminal Program (Konsole)
[22:21] <emmajane> If you are using a different desktop environment you are probably already a super 1337 haX0r that knows how to find a terminal window, but please let me know if you need more help!
[22:21] <emmajane> Let me know if you can't find a terminal window....
[22:22] <emmajane> Now that you are at the terminal window you will see something similar to my command line that I displayed above. We are now going to install Bazaar. I chose to do this from the command because that's where we'll be running the commands. You could also use the Synaptic Package Manager to do this installation.
[22:22] <emmajane> To install Bazaar we are going to use a package manager called apt-get. It install a package it uses the structure: apt-get install PACKAGENAME. You must be the super user of your system to run this program we will use the "sudo" command instead because it's faster and because this comic is funnier if you know about sudo:  http://xkcd.com/149/
[22:23] <emmajane> $ sudo apt-get install bzr
[22:24] <emmajane> You will be prompted for your password. This is your password.
[22:24] <emmajane> (Assuming you are the only "user" on your workstation)
 how do i know if i have the latest version of bzr installed?
[22:26] <emmajane> If you run that command Ubuntu will check to see if your version is already the latest for your version of Ubuntu.
[22:26] <emmajane> Assuming you have automatic updates turned on (yes by default) you are probably already running the latest version for your flavour of Ubuntu.
[22:28] <emmajane> Assuming that worked you should now have Bazaar installed on your system. You can test this with the following command:
[22:28] <emmajane> $ bzr
[22:28] <emmajane> You should get a list of Bazaar commands. Note: Bazaar is the name of the application and bzr is the actual command that you run.
[22:29] <emmajane> The first command we're going to run "in" Bazaar is to tell it who you are. This will put your name next to any work that you do with the system documentation.
[22:29] <emmajane> $ bzr whoami "Your name<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:29] <emmajane> You should replace "Your name" with your actual name. The email address is optional.
[22:30] <emmajane> See how bzr is a command line utility?
[22:30] <emmajane> You type in "bzr" and the command you want to give it. In this case it's bzr whoami
[22:30] <emmajane> If you want to have a pointy-clicky browser to make these changes you can also install "Olive." This program has the package name: bzr-gtk. You can install it with the following command:
[22:30] <emmajane> $ sudo apt-get install bzr-gtk
[22:31] <emmajane> I'll be honest though, the command line version of the tool is a lot more robust.
[22:31] <emmajane> There are also tools for Windows and OSX too.
[22:31] <emmajane> A few months ago I prepared a screen cast for the Desktop Training Course, although the package that you download for the system documentation is different, many of the concepts are the same. You can watch the video here:
[22:31] <emmajane> http://showmedo.com/videotutorials/video?name=3670000&fromSeriesID=367
[22:31] <emmajane> You can watch that screen cast later...
[22:31] <emmajane> How's everyone doing so far? Ready to start taking snapshots of your files?
 QUESTION: is bazaar a distributed version control system? or centralized like subversion?
[22:32] <emmajane> Bazaar is a distributed version control system. It's like Git or Mercurial.
[22:32] <emmajane> It can behave like a centralized system as well (like CVS or Subversion).
[22:33] <emmajane> http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows <-- those are a few of the ways you can set up Bazaar.
[22:33] <emmajane> the documentation team uses Bazaar with a "centralized" model meaning that everyone checks their files into Launchpad.
[22:34] <emmajane> Topic 3/6: Using Bazaar for regular files
[22:34] <emmajane> For the next part I want you to choose a directory that has files you *know* you should be keeping in better order. This might be an application that you've been hacking away on, or your resume folder, or whatever!
[22:34] <emmajane> We could also invent some files if you wanted to, but I think it's nice to work with files you know.
[22:34] <emmajane> Change directory to the folder that has the files you want to put under revision control. I am going to work in the folder that contains the files for the Web site bzrvsgit.com. I use the following command to move to that directory: