[20:06] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am hearing that some distros (Arch I think?) have decided to make pw and jack mutually exclusive so that both can not be installed at the same time. We need to watch for this because it is a bug. Jack should be able to run while pw does. Packaging should not interfere with that.
[20:07] <arraybolt3> I believe I ran into this with openSUSE back last cycle during testing.
[20:07] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Speaking to the Debian folks, they understand the technical stance that Jack and PW can be installed together (and have read the docs that state as such), so I think we're safe.
[20:07] <Eickmeyer> If not, I can file a very loud bug like I did with pulse and pw-pulse.
[20:08] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I have suggested it may be a good thing to create something like zita-pjbridge
[20:09] <OvenWerks> not peanut butter and jam but pipewire and jack
[20:09] <Eickmeyer> It would be wonderful.
[20:09] <Eickmeyer> PB&J sounds fire right now (it's lunch time and I'm getting hungry)
[20:10] <arraybolt3[m]> Now I'm getting hungry :P
[20:11]  * arraybolt3 wonders if PB and maple syrup can be put in a hot dog bun
[20:12] <Eickmeyer> Sounds like an odd flavor choice.
[20:13] <arraybolt3> Peanut butter and maple syrup? They actually go together really well.
[20:13] <arraybolt3> But then again I seem to make a *lot* of odd flavor choices.
[20:13] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, but on a pancake, not on a hot dog bun.
[20:13] <arraybolt3> A hot dog bun is just bread.
[20:13] <Eickmeyer> A pancake isn't bread, it's buttermilk.
[20:13] <arraybolt3> Works well on plain white bread too.
[20:14] <Eickmeyer> smh
[20:14] <Eickmeyer> You do you.
[20:14] <arraybolt3> I may or may not have said this before, but my dad thinks my choices of flavors are so weird that, if he eats something and immediately thinks "No", he then thinks "Hey, my son will love this!" XD
[20:15] <Eickmeyer[m]> That's pretty telling.
[20:17] <arraybolt3> (Gah, I just actually tried to `:q` out of gitk...)
[20:17] <Eickmeyer[m]> Your vim is leaking.
[20:17] <arraybolt3> This is probably where people got the idea to make Emacs into an operating system.
[20:17] <arraybolt3> lol re vim is leaking
[23:41] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: on second thought... it might be a pain opening two different libraries with exactly the same calls...


[15:43] <mup> PR snapcraft#4007 opened: build(deps): bump setuptools from 49.6.0 to 65.5.1 <dependencies> <python> <Created by dependabot[bot]> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/4007>


[00:01] <BUGabundo> nite
[01:24] <micahg> chrisccoulson: beta 2 builds have been tagged, idk if you want to risk uploading for oneiric beta 1 ( a respin later would be cause for another upload to bring us closer to beta ;))
[01:25] <chrisccoulson> micahg, yeah, i saw that now. i'll think about it in the morning, it's getting quite late for me to start it now
[01:25] <micahg> chrisccoulson: heh, understandable, have a good night :)
[01:25] <chrisccoulson> but the new build is quite low risk, there's only a handful of commits since the last build
[01:25] <chrisccoulson> i still can't recreate this mozvoikko crash :/
[01:26] <chrisccoulson> and we have no debug symbols ;)
[01:26] <micahg> chrisccoulson: I saw that about the debug symbols :), we'll fix that for 7...I don't think it's worth another USN for it
[01:27] <micahg> ugh, and now the Debian maintainer confirms it, I really need to get him to do the QA for me on it :)
[01:28] <micahg> chrisccoulson: well, if it can be figured out and you have a fix, I'll happy to push the fix through
[01:29] <micahg> wow, it's only 8PM and I can't make a coherent sentance
[01:29] <micahg> or spell :P
[01:30] <chrisccoulson> heh
[01:30] <chrisccoulson> if he maintains it then he should be able to do his own build with debug symbols ;)
[01:31] <chrisccoulson> oh, i've got to do another tbird upload
[01:31] <chrisccoulson> seems there are some icons missing :/
[04:12] <andersk> Silly question: has Thunderbird 7.0b1 actually been released?
[06:12] <dupondje> chrisccoulson: don't forget lightning ;)
[11:43] <chrisccoulson_> m_conley_away, do you know if there's a reason that the labels in the message header buttons aren't capitalized?
[11:44] <chrisccoulson_> eg, "reply" and "reply list"
[11:44] <chrisccoulson_> it seems to be the same in !en locales too, and i'm just wondering if there's a reason for that
[11:44] <chrisccoulson_> as the main toolbar button labels are capitalized
[11:50] <dupondje> chrisccoulson_: is lightning plugin getting updated for tb7.0 ?
[11:51] <chrisccoulson_> yes, i wish people would stop reminding me :)
[11:51] <chrisccoulson_> it's on my list of things to do, and generally don't need people to keep telling me it doesn't work ;)
[11:53] <dupondje> hehe :) my excuses ;)
[12:21] <chrisccoulson_> b'ah, still getting lots of these https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/27bc88f6-44ae-487a-bbb3-c87be2110825
[12:22] <chrisccoulson_> this one is still eluding me
[12:25] <dupondje> didn't crash here yet :)
[13:04] <m_conley> chrisccoulson_: ping
[13:04] <chrisccoulson_> hi m_conley
[13:04] <m_conley> chrisccoulson_: hey - just saw your bug report
[13:04] <chrisccoulson_> m_conley, oh, that's not mine. that was from tjaalton ;)
[13:04] <chrisccoulson_> i just subscribed you to it
[13:05] <m_conley> chrisccoulson_: ah, gotcha.  Are you experiencing something similar?
[13:05] <chrisccoulson_> m_conley, yeah, i opened up one of my contacts and the editor appeared empty too
[13:05] <m_conley> chrisccoulson_: remember how I got you to check the editor a few days ago?  Does it look the same?
[13:05] <chrisccoulson_> i've not had time to have a proper look at it yet though
[13:05] <m_conley> chrisccoulson_: or has something changed in the interim?
[13:07] <chrisccoulson_> m_conley, it looks the same here
[13:11] <chrisccoulson_> m_conley, oh, it seems like the extension is missing the generated xpt typelibs
[13:11] <chrisccoulson_> so that's my fault ;)
[13:11] <m_conley> chrisccoulson_: oof - yep, that'd do it. :)
[13:13] <chrisccoulson_> m_conley:
[13:13] <chrisccoulson_> build.sh: 63: ./make_interface.sh: Permission denied
[13:14] <chrisccoulson_> heh
[13:14] <m_conley> yikes - did I do that?
[13:14] <chrisccoulson_> i need to set that executable in the build
[13:14] <m_conley> ah
[13:14] <m_conley> maybe we should make build.sh fail loud/fail proud when something like that happens...
[13:14] <chrisccoulson_> i can make this fatal
[13:15] <m_conley> do it, please!
[18:32] <chrisccoulson_> bhearsum, do you think there's much risk with me uploading the current 7.0b2 build to ubuntu this evening? we freeze for beta in a couple of hours until next thursday :/
[18:34] <bhearsum> i'd be surprised if we respun for any of the bugs that came up on the release-drivers list
[18:34] <chrisccoulson_> bhearsum, yeah, that was my only concern really
[18:40] <bhearsum> yeah, i think that's ok
[18:40] <bhearsum> honestly, even if you have a slightly different 7.0b2 it's not the end of the world
[18:40] <bhearsum> final releases would be a different matter :)
[18:42] <chrisccoulson_> bhearsum, thanks. i'll get the current build uploaded shortly then :)
[18:43] <bhearsum> np :)
[20:38] <BUGabundo> evening terraceos
[21:34] <chrisccoulson> m_conley_away, wooh, thunderbird featured on omgubuntu - www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/08/visual-rundown-oneiric-update-11-10-unity-software-centre-icon/ ;)
[21:43] <chrisccoulson> it's funny that whilst everyone is whinging about unity, all of the comments about the thunderbird theme are really positive!
[21:44] <chrisccoulson> people seem to quite like it
[21:48] <Omega> chrisccoulson: I know you guys are looking for help, I've been here for a while, I love Ubuntu, I love Mozilla, what are you looking for? :)


[07:03] <Olotila> how do I open a file in default viewer from terminal?
[07:04] <LinDol> hi all :))
[07:41] <LinDol> Could you explain to me about " * Fixes to Language pack installation (gnome-control-center) and ibus support"
[07:41] <LinDol> i want to know exactly "Fixes"
[07:42] <LinDol> for translating Korean
[07:53] <LinDol> darkxst, hello tim, could you help to me?
[07:54] <darkxst> LinDol, !!
[07:54] <darkxst> !ask
[07:54] <LinDol> oops, sorry.
[07:54] <darkxst> you should know that :)
[07:54] <LinDol> haha okay :)
[07:54] <LinDol> Could you explain to me about "Fixes to" ?
[07:54] <LinDol> I just want to know exactly meaning
[07:54] <darkxst> contect?
[07:54] <darkxst> context?
[07:54] <LinDol> " * Fixes to Language pack installation (gnome-control-center) and ibus support"
[07:54] <LinDol> yes
[07:54] <LinDol> context
[07:55] <LinDol> that "Fix" was used like 'repair" ??
[07:55] <darkxst> LinDol, yes
[07:55] <darkxst> fixed some bugs that affected those
[07:56] <LinDol> oh.. thank you :)
[07:56] <LinDol> I will translate again :)
[08:03] <darkxst> LinDol, np anytime
[08:14] <Olotila> I put a shortcut Ctrl + Alt + M to command gnome-open ~/Documents/Muista/muista.odt
[08:14] <Olotila> but it does not work
[08:15] <Olotila> if I give that command in terminal, it works
[09:30] <LinDol> I have finished to translate korean for release note :) Thank you
[09:30] <LinDol> and have a great dinner :)
[15:18] <Olotila> How do I make Nautilus go UP one folder with Backspace?
[15:18] <Olotila> towards root that is
[15:26] <georgeowell> It already does?
[15:26] <georgeowell> Olotila: in 3.16
[15:36] <Olotila> I got 3.20
[15:39] <Olotila> I uncommented in ~/.config/nautilus/accels
[15:39] <Olotila> (gtk_accel_path "<Actions>/ShellActions/GoUpAccel" "BackSpace")
[15:39] <Olotila> and killed nautilus and restarted
[15:39] <Olotila> did not work
[15:40] <Olotila> or how does that file word?
[15:40] <Olotila> *work
[15:40] <Olotila> there is line ; (gtk_accel_path "<Actions>/ShellActions/Back" "<Alt>Left")
[15:40] <Olotila> and it works, I think
[15:40] <Olotila> so that alt left goes "back"
[16:00] <Olotila> http://software.techforums.space/software/bring-backspace-back-to-nautilus-318-once-and-for-all-4b31a0c4.html
[16:01] <Olotila> so I am not alone
[16:14] <Olotila> I need to go UP using only one hand
[16:14] <Olotila> or at least BACK


[00:43] <ago> evand have added a diff patch to bug #12596659
[00:44] <ago> bug #186114
[00:46] <ago> wubi rev 451 is up
[00:53] <TheMuso> ago: Ok that updated mounthost made no difference.
[00:54] <TheMuso> Let me reboot in recovery mode to see how things look...
[00:57] <TheMuso> ago: Still mounted ro.
[00:58] <ago> hmm can you set -x in mounthost to see where it fails?
[00:59] <TheMuso> Yep, give me a bit so I can boot into a live disk to adjust it.
[00:59] <ago> sure, might be that there are some earlier errors
[01:01]  * ago thinks about folders mount-moved in initrd
[01:06] <ago> I'd assume that a loopdevice within a ro host is also ro
[01:07] <ago> and in scripts/local we mount-move /host into a ro loopdevice (not sure if that is allowed)
[01:08] <ago> TheMuso you might want to have set -x also in initramfs-tools/scripts/local to check that
[01:09] <TheMuso> ago: Ok, I'll get the script's contents dumped to a log file for both scripts, and I'll apstebin them both.
[01:09] <ago> thanks
[01:11] <ago> I am out of space and cannot create a vfat vm before backup/cleanup...
[01:14] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 186114 in wubi "umountroot cannot handle fuse host mounts" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/186114
[01:16]  * TheMuso re-generates the initramfs
[01:16] <ago> ubotu, that must be a record....
[01:29] <TheMuso> Wooho. It would help if I made the mounthost script I copied over executable. :S
[02:04] <TheMuso> ago: initramfs-tool scripts/local output: http://pastebin.com/m99dbdb6
[02:05] <TheMuso> ago: mounthosts: http://pastebin.com/m1d0d3f2b
[02:13] <ago> TheMuso: mounthost seems to have executed the following command successfully:
[02:13] <ago> mount -n -o remount,defaults,rw /dev/disk/by-uuid/747E-E96F /host
[02:13] <TheMuso> ago: But /host is still ro.
[02:13] <TheMuso> Let me boot it again, just to be sure.
[02:14] <ago> initramfs does not show any error during mount-move, I assume you stopped that to get the log
[02:14] <TheMuso> Yes
[02:15] <ago> I know that for instance ntfs-3g cannot be remounted at the moment #186117
[02:15] <ago> I wouldn't expect the same issue to extend to vfat, but you never know...
[02:16] <ago> can you try to mount/remount vfat from a live session?
[02:16] <TheMuso> Hrm ok maybe with the recent mounthosts update, host is now mounted rw, however things still crash out, which amkes me think its the initramfs code that is the issue.
[02:16] <TheMuso> makes
[02:17] <ago> well if it is mounted rw, one less I guess...
[02:17] <TheMuso> Yes.
[02:18] <TheMuso> Yeah, even now I can't remount the root filesystem read-only, still says /host/ubuntu/disks/root.disk is wrte-protected.
[02:19] <TheMuso> So the initial mount from the initramfs sticks.
[02:19] <TheMuso> Even accross the pivot, which makes sense.
[02:19] <ago> ah so /host gets remounted but / does not...
[02:20] <TheMuso> Yes, and cannot.
[02:20] <ago> I went through that long time ago'...
[02:20] <TheMuso> Once we pivot, the remount of /host by mounthost is treated as a separate entity it seems.
[02:20] <ago> IRC the solution is not to use mount -o loop
[02:21] <ago> but use losetup instead and the mount /dev/loop0
[02:21] <TheMuso> That doesn't appear to be used.
[02:21] <ago> it is in initramfs-tools/scripts/local
[02:21] <ago> mount ${roflag} -o loop -t ${FSTYPE} ${LOOPFLAGS} "/host/${LOOP#/}" ${rootmnt}
[02:21] <TheMuso> Right.
[02:21] <TheMuso> I still don't quite follow what you are saying.
[02:22] <ago> you split mount -o loop in 2 operations
[02:22] <ago> 1) you create a loop device with losetup
[02:22] <ago> 2) you mount that normally without "-o loop" since now it is available as /dev/loop#
[02:22] <TheMuso> Um, so what difference would this make with initramfs tools, and vfat being mounted ro?
[02:23] <ago> as mentioned I went through that ~1 y ago', but I think that for some reason when you use mount -o loop the hosted device is marked for life with the host settings
[02:23] <ago> while if you split, the 2 are independent
[02:24] <ago> sort of
[02:27] <TheMuso> Right.
[02:27] <TheMuso> But is there a reason why vfat gets mounted read-only in initramfs in the first place, an ntfs doesn't?
[02:28] <ago> yes there was an exception for ntfs, since it could not be remounted
[02:28] <ago> the relevant line is:
[02:28] <ago> ([ -z "$LOOP" ] || [ "${FSTYPE#ntfs}" = "$FSTYPE" ]); then
[02:28] <ago>
[02:28] <TheMuso> yeah I saw that
[02:28] <TheMuso> that makes sense.
[02:29] <ago> 1 solution is to delete  || [ "${FSTYPE#ntfs}" = "$FSTYPE" ])
[02:29] <ago> so that whenever there is a loop device it gets always mounted rw
[02:29] <TheMuso> Hrm, but wouldn't it be saner to use losetup as you previously mentioned?
[02:29] <ago> other solution is to use the losetup + mount /dev/loop
[02:29] <TheMuso> And let mounthost remount it rw?
[02:29] <ago> I think so
[02:30] <ago> and when 186117 is addressed we can remove the specialcasing for ntfs
[02:30] <TheMuso> Right.
[02:30] <TheMuso> I'll research the losetup stuff now if you'd like, and I'll d a test. If it works, I'll upload a fix.
[02:31] <ago> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/59320/
[02:32] <ago> replace the mount -o loop with the above (I assume that losetup is available in initrd, do not remember now)
[02:33] <TheMuso> I can check
[02:35] <TheMuso> Yes, it is in the initramfs.
[02:36] <TheMuso> Ok, I'll make a change, and test.
[02:53] <ago> TheMuso, really need to go to bed 3am here...
[02:53] <TheMuso> ago: Thats fine, I'll let you know how it goes.
[02:53] <ago> thanks a lot for everything
[02:53] <ago> 'night
[02:53] <TheMuso> You're welcome.
[02:53] <TheMuso> Night
[08:19] <evand> The noninteractive oem-config bug seems to not stop there.  When noninteractive is used it cannot find any of the packages on the local cd mirror.  I'll take a further look in the morning.
[08:24] <superm1> evand, oooh yuck.  that's worse than expected :)
[08:34] <cjwatson> that's ... special
[10:36] <xivulon> TheMuso any luck yesterday?
[10:37] <TheMuso> xivulon: It still crashes out. I need to get a complete boot log for you.
[10:37] <xivulon> thanks
[13:37] <cr3> is there a way to preseed an installation so that deb-src repositories aren't generated in the sources.list?
[13:37] <cr3> also, is there a way to prevent hardy-updates from being generated too?
[13:48] <cjwatson> no, sorry (to both)
[14:32] <cr3> cjwatson: that's fine, I'll workaround in late-command.
[14:32] <cr3> when installing a new package, during the Setting up phase, I sometimes get: Not replacing deleted config file /etc/...
[14:33] <cr3> I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but this is breaking packages being installed :(
[14:34] <cr3> or just running dpkg-reconfigure package_name returns the same error message
[14:35] <cr3> err, warning message :)
[15:08] <cr3> aha! it was a ucf problem which can be fixed with ucf -p /etc/...
[18:26] <evand> This noninteractive bug is horribly confusing.  gtk_ui and noninteractive are using the same code during the actual install routine, yet the former is able to install packages from the CD and the latter complains about them not being in pool.
[18:27] <evand> Curiously, if I interrupt the process with a sleep and run apt by hand (setting the appropriate options) it works just fine.
[18:27] <evand> ugh.
[18:47] <mario_limonciell> that would make it rather difficult to sort out -
[19:05] <cr3> after the installation has completed, in late-command, is there a way to add repositories to sources.list and apt-get a few more packages?
[19:06] <cr3> the reason for wanting to apt-get new packages so late is that I want to be very strict on the repositories used during the installation
[19:06] <cjwatson> use apt-setup/local0/repository etc.
[19:06] <cr3> and, the problem with running apt-get in late-command is that /proc doesn't exist on the target system so apt-get fails horribly :)
[19:06] <cr3> cjwatson: the problem is that repositories specified that way are used during the installation of the system proper
[19:07] <cjwatson> no they aren't
[19:07] <cjwatson> they're used for language packs, but that's all
[19:07] <cjwatson> relevantly, they're used for pkgsel/include
[19:07] <cjwatson> which is what you really want
[19:07] <cr3> cjwatson: indeed relevantly, thanks a lot for that info!
[19:08] <cjwatson> you can bind-mount /proc if you need to (necessary when not using in-target), but it shouldn't be needed with that different approach
[19:08] <cjwatson> and then just preseed the things you need to preseed in the normal way, using a preseed file
[19:15] <soren> cjwatson: Why bind-mount /proc rather than just mount it?
[19:53] <yennes> hi
[19:53] <yennes> need help installing boost
[19:53] <yennes> is anyone here?
[20:49] <cjwatson> soren: either works
[20:55] <soren> cjwatson: Ok.
[22:17] <cr3> I'm getting an error code 100 during pkgsel because the repository used during the installation doesn't have deb-src nor hardy-updates. Is there a way I could hook into preseed before pkgsel is called to strip sources.list or should I emulate deb-src and hardy-updates on the server side?
[22:23] <cr3> and it seems that pkgsel is forcing an upgrade, or maybe I could be wrong: The following NEW packages will be installed:...
[22:54] <cjwatson> there's a /usr/lib/pre-pkgsel.d
[22:54] <cjwatson> new packages doesn't sound like an upgrade
[22:59] <cr3> ls: /usr/lib/pre-pkgsel.d/*: No such file or directory;  WARNING **: Configuring 'pkgsel' failed with error code 1
[22:59] <cjwatson> mkdir
[22:59] <cjwatson> (if you want it); it won't be failing for that reason anyway
[22:59] <cr3> oh, there's also this line: The following packages will be upgraded:
[22:59] <cr3> right, just a warning. at what point should I be creating /usr/lib/pre-pkgsel.d/?
[23:00] <cjwatson> upgraded> maybe needed in order to install language packs; it certainly doesn't run a real upgrade
[23:00] <cjwatson> I know that for an absolute fact
[23:00] <cr3> some of the files under the upgraded packages include: apt apt-utils dhcp3-client dhcp3-common gcc-4.2-base initramfs-tools libgcc1 libsasl2-2 libsasl2-modules libssl0.9.8 libstdc++6 ntpdate python python-minimal python2.5 python2.5-minimal tasksel tasksel-data
[23:01] <cjwatson> if you want to hook in before pkgsel to do something, create the directory from preseed/early_command and drop an executable script in it
[23:01] <cjwatson> could I see the full log, please? it's hard to guess from snippets
[23:02] <cr3> cjwatson: sorry, I removed the log and reverted to doing all my mangling in late-command. I will try again to polish my preseeding once all the tests have completed.
[23:02] <cjwatson> I don't see anything in there that could obviously be forced, but if it were a significant enough mismatch between image and archive then it's possible
[23:04] <cr3> ok, so I might try to strip hardy-updates and deb-src in a pre-pkgsel script. I think that would be clean
[23:04] <cjwatson> pkgsel does: install appropriate language-pack-$LANGUAGE for basic localisation; run tasksel to install bulk of packages; install rest of language packs (e.g. language-pack-gnome-$LANGUAGE) and language-support-$LANGUAGE
[23:05] <cjwatson> and other miscellaneous (non-apt) bits and pieces around that
[23:05] <cjwatson> is this a CD or net install?
[23:05] <cr3> cjwatson: net install
[23:05] <cjwatson> ok, in that case I apologise for misleading you earlier
[23:06] <cjwatson> repositories specified with apt-setup/local* are indeed used for installing the system as a whole in the case of net installs
[23:06] <cjwatson> but not for CD installs
[23:06] <cjwatson> I get a bit CD-centric sometimes
[23:06] <cr3> cjwatson: heh, don't worry about it, I need to understand exactly what's going on and learning from mistakes helps tremendously
[23:06] <cjwatson> you could cheat in a potentially interesting way
[23:07] <cjwatson> in pre-pkgsel.d, remove deb-src and -updates as you wish
[23:07] <cjwatson> but also copy /target/etc/apt/sources.list to /target/etc/apt/sources.list.apt-setup, and add the extra local repositories you want
[23:07] <cjwatson> pkgsel will move the latter file into place before processing pkgsel/include
[23:07] <cr3> cjwatson: so perhaps I'll also add my other repositories in pre-pkgsel
[23:08] <cjwatson> this is complete undocumented cheating, and piggybacks on how CD stuff happens to be implemented, but ought to work
[23:08] <cjwatson> it's the easiest way I can think of to add local repositories in a net install but not have them used for the bulk package installation stage
[23:09] <cr3> 1. cp /target/etc/apt/sources.list /target/etc/apt/sources.list.apt-setup; 2. mangle /target/etc/apt/sources.list.apt-setup; 3. let 'er rip
[23:09] <cjwatson> right
[23:09] <cr3> cjwatson: this certainly beats my current workaround: have my test suite apt-get packages :(
[23:09] <cjwatson> you will probably want to remove deb-src and -updates from /target/etc/apt/sources.list before copying
[23:09] <cr3> that is totally evil and I'm ashamed to even mention it
[23:10] <cr3> cjwatson: so I might as well invert steps #2 and #1
[23:10] <cr3> unless /target/etc/apt/sources.list is actually used by the installer to install the system
[23:11] <cjwatson> it is
[23:11] <cr3> ok, I really need to jet, taking spiv out for a beer :)
[23:12] <cjwatson> it uses /target/etc/apt/sources.list up to just after tasksel finishes
[23:12] <cr3> oh, thanks for the info, I'll be careful to get those steps straight
[23:12] <cjwatson> then copies sources.list.apt-setup into place, then installs pkgsel/include stuff, then installs rest of language packs
[23:13] <cr3> crystal clear :)
[23:13] <cjwatson> night, enjoy beer :)
[23:13] <cr3> meeting brad bollenbach as well, nice evening ahead :)
[23:51] <xivulon> hmm I do not seem to be able to remount a loopfile inside vfat....
[23:52] <xivulon> if I start with a ro mounted host, I can remount the host but not the hosted loopfile
[23:52] <xivulon> if I start with a rw host+hosted. I can remount ro the hosted fs, but not the host
[23:55] <TheMuso> xivulon: Whats interesting, si when I made those initramfs changes locally and tried again, it crashed, but the loop mounted root fs was mounted rw. I'd need to check to be sure, but thats what I can remember.
[23:56] <xivulon> strange I am tru
[23:56] <xivulon> trying to replicate on a vfat partition
[23:56] <xivulon> I mount vfat partition ro (that contains an ext3 file)
[23:56] <xivulon> then do losetup on the ext3 file in there
[23:56] <xivulon> then mount the loop device ro
[23:57] <xivulon> then remount the vfat partition rw
[23:57] <xivulon> then remount the loopdevice rw
[23:57] <xivulon> and... ...it does not work
[23:57] <xivulon> but iirc it used to work
[23:57] <xivulon> doublechecking


[21:41] <Aborady> al salam 3likom
[21:41] <Aborady> i just upgraded to ubuntu 11.4
[21:41] <Aborady> i 've a problem
[21:41] <Aborady> Blank screen after login
[21:41] <Aborady> i login with no problem then Blank screen nothing apper but the ubuntu violet background with blink mouse
[21:42] <Aborady> can anybody help ?
[21:42] <Aborady> Menopia: hey
[21:42] <Menopia> hi Aborady
[21:42] <Menopia> just a second
[21:43] <Aborady> ok bro tyt
[21:44] <Menopia> Please try this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveryMode
[21:44] <Aborady> ctrl + alt + f2 is working
[21:44] <Aborady> i tried to comment out loading glx in /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[21:45] <Menopia> mmm
[21:46] <Aborady> i also apt-get install nvidia-current
[21:46] <Menopia> Just try the recovery mode, may be this fix your issue
[21:46] <Aborady> i tried this too
[21:46] <Aborady> i fixed all broken packages
[21:47] <Menopia> I will try searching for you
[21:47] <Aborady> Ok searching here too :D
[21:48] <Menopia> Can you try the gnome 2 session
[21:48] <Aborady> how ?
[21:49] <Aborady> just gimmi quick tip
[21:49] <Menopia> http://www.techrecipes.net/operatingsystem/ubuntu/natty-login-to-gnome-2
[21:50] <Aborady> yes i did this too but the same result Blank screen
[21:51] <Menopia> I will keep searching
[21:51] <Aborady> i dunno whats this problem however upgrading was easy with no errors
[21:52] <Menopia> try sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-intel
[21:53] <Aborady> ok i gonna restart now and try and get back 2 u
[21:53] <Aborady> you r eng .Ahmed right ?
[21:53] <Menopia> No :)
[21:53] <Menopia> Islam Wazery
[21:53] <Menopia> Do you know me?
[21:53] <Aborady> nice to meet u man
[21:54] <Aborady> i know eng.ahmed ouda
[21:54] <Aborady> in facebook group
[21:54] <Menopia> Nice to meet you :)
[21:54] <Menopia> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1743301
[21:54] <Menopia> see unknown47 replay
[21:55] <Menopia> Are you hearing the login sound?
[21:55] <Aborady> yes and see the login box
[21:55] <Aborady> its not black screen
[21:55] <Aborady> just blank
[21:56] <Aborady> el 7'alfia el banafsegy 3ady bas fadya mafeesh desktop
[21:56] <Menopia> aha
[21:56] <Aborady> i see the mouse moving too
[21:57] <Aborady> i'll try now to install xserver-xorg and get back to you
[21:58] <Menopia> see this, if this bug is what you means mark the bug as also affects you
[22:00] <Aborady> i saw it and i think i faced this prob before thats for black screen with no splash
[22:00] <Aborady> but mine is different , difficult too :D
[22:01] <Aborady> i've an expert friend who find it difficult too
[22:01] <Aborady> but we'll try together
[22:01] <Menopia> sorry I forgot to send you a link for the bug that I mean :) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/687660
[22:04] <Aborady> lubotu3 : how can i get it
[22:04] <Menopia> :D
[22:04] <Aborady> :D
[22:04] <Aborady> i dont know its a bot :D
[22:05] <Menopia> lool
[22:05] <Aborady> but i'm checking out his bug now
[22:06] <Menopia> No, it's not his bug, when I sent a link to this bug, the bot only reported back it's name :)
[22:06] <Aborady> i have no icons or panels
[22:06] <Aborady> this bug taking about progressive desktop than mine :D
[22:07] <Menopia> :D:D
[22:08] <Menopia> I think this applies http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1744847
[22:08] <Menopia> but his Ubuntu Classic starts up fine
[22:10] <Aborady> yup :(
[22:10] <Aborady> so can i reinstall gnome at all ?
[22:11] <Aborady> sudo apt-get remove --purge gnome-desktop-environment
[22:12] <Menopia> try sudo apt-get install --reinstall ubuntu-desktop
[22:12] <Aborady> ok i gonna try now
[22:22] <Aborady> Nothing happened
[22:23] <Aborady> did u find anything else ?
[22:26] <Aborady> can i make a bug for this ?
[22:27] <Aborady> Menopia: u here ?


[12:02] <madsen> tseng: !?! It just gave me the 'this application has quit' dialog - no output at all...
[12:03] <zakame> pardon my ign, but how do I put footnotes in the ubuntu wiki page?
[12:03] <wasabi_> Hmm. I am trying to call a Makefile, and pass it a CFLAGS addition, without overwriting the CFLAGS that the Makefile itself adds to it.
[12:04] <madsen> tseng: See why I'm so mystified now?
[12:05] <madsen> tseng: I didn't mean to throw a red herring when I said "screwed up mono install" - I meant that my mono install was really messed up. Don't know how, don't know why - but it definitely is.
[12:06] <tseng> did you build anything from source
[12:07] <tseng> because ive had no reports in all this time of this behaviour from packages
[12:07] <madsen> tseng: Nope, all binary breezy packages.
[12:07] <tseng> i use them daily myself
[12:08] <madsen> tseng: I'm thinking that my base-install might have laid out the foundation for a really messed up system. I installed with debootstrab from a chroot under Agnula/Debian.
[12:08] <tseng> i see
[12:08] <madsen> tseng: However, I did follow the instructions from the wiki...
[12:08] <wasabi_> Is 2.6.13 going to be uploaded at any point in the near future?
[12:08] <wasabi_> Silly kernel module requires it.
[12:08] <tseng> wasabi_: no
[12:08] <wasabi_> Alas.
[12:08] <tseng> kernel 2.6.14 is the target for dapper
[12:09] <wasabi_> Hmm.
[12:09] <tseng> madsen: well i obviously cant speak to our software working on someone elses kernel and libc
[12:09] <wasabi_> But 2.6.13 isn't going to be up in the meantime?
[12:09] <madsen> tseng: No no, I installed breezy in the chroot.
[12:10] <tseng> uh
[12:10] <tseng> chroot doesnt boot a kernel
[12:10] <madsen> tseng: an entire breezy and then booted on it.
[12:10] <tseng> for starters
[12:10] <madsen> tseng: I know, but grub does. ;)
[12:10] <tseng> hm well if that sounds like the instigating factor id like to hear how it works in a native breezy
[12:11] <tseng> i dont have any other clues, first ive heard of it
[12:11] <tseng> wasabi_: 2.6.14_rcX will go in
[12:11] <madsen> tseng: Uh, I think you lost me there...
[12:11] <wasabi_> tseng, okay, awesome... just don't know the timeframe?
[12:11] <tseng> wasabi_: nope, not my baby
[12:11] <wasabi_> I wonder only because I'm packaging a kernel module that requires > .13
[12:11] <tseng> wasabi_: sorry
[12:11] <wasabi_> K.
[12:12] <tseng> madsen: well, when debugging a problem, you normally try to elimante potential causes of the problem one at a time until it works..
[12:12] <tseng> madsen: you've only proposed one so far
[12:13] <madsen> tseng: Well, it works fine on breezy installed from CD - as you know.
[12:13] <tseng> well then
[12:13] <madsen> tseng: But I can't install from cd because I have no cds...
[12:14] <tseng> can you please try to track down the problem factor between the cd and the chroot
[12:14] <tseng> because i have mono in a chroot also
[12:14] <tseng> it works.
[12:14] <madsen> tseng: I've been trying to do exactly that for 3 days...
[12:16] <madsen> tseng: I debootstrapped hda3, chrooted to it and installed linux-686 and ubuntu-desktop, booted and it seemed to work. Then I installed banshee and encountered these problems...
[12:17] <tseng> im at a loss pending another clue, both methods work for me
[12:17] <madsen> tseng: I've tracked the problem to having to do with mono, since even "hello world" in c# is acting weird...
[12:17] <slomo> what does hello world do?
[12:18] <slomo> same problem?
[12:18] <madsen> it echo'es "hello world" but doesn't exit...
[12:18] <madsen> same goes when I compile hello world with mcs.
[12:18] <slomo> what hello world? can you paste the code somehwere?
[12:18] <ajmitch> (not in this channel)
[12:18] <madsen> slomo: Sure
[12:19] <ajmitch> pastebin again, please :)
[12:19] <madsen> http://rafb.net/paste/results/Yvwqmd70.html
[12:19] <madsen> ajmitch: I know. :) I'm not a newb. :)
[12:19] <tseng> from bootstrap
[12:20] <slomo> madsen: ok, nothing wrong with it ;) hmm
[12:20] <madsen> Woh!
[12:21] <madsen> Just did an strace on the execution of hello world...
[12:21] <madsen> A whole lot of nanosleep there...
[12:21] <tseng> stracing mono is useless
[12:21] <madsen> tseng: Apparently... Unless it has to do with missing files.
[12:21] <tseng> as i said those files missing is non-critical
[12:22] <madsen> tseng: I know, but _sometimes_ they're not. :)
[12:22] <Kamion> elmo: please sync os-prober, when you have time out from the meeting
[12:23] <madsen> I'm really, really confused here - I hope you see why.
[12:23] <tseng> yes, you've managed to confuse me
[12:23] <slomo> same here
[12:23] <madsen> tseng: lol! Sorry about that.
[12:23] <madsen> slomo: --^
[12:24] <madsen> I've also tried with a brand new user - same problems.
[12:24] <slomo> madsen: hm, a guess... try apt-get --reinstall install mono-classlib-1.0
[12:24] <slomo> madsen: we fixed that already but maybe you got that bug...
[12:24] <slomo> no idea
[12:25] <madsen> slomo: I did that 12 hours ago...
[12:25] <slomo> hm
[12:25] <madsen> slomo: Could it be that the fix could in some way have _not_ reached the mirrors?
[12:26] <slomo> it has
[12:26] <madsen> Oh wait, I'm using archive.ubuntu.com...
[12:29] <madsen> Hmm, interesting... beagled is able to get to the main loop before it dies with the same error as the others.
[12:29] <slomo> ok...
[12:29] <madsen> At least it says to in the log.
[12:29] <slomo> madsen: http://slomosnail.de/~slomo/test.exe
[12:30] <slomo> madsen: does this show an empty window? or does it crash before?
[12:30] <tseng> hm yes, gtk# bug
[12:30] <tseng> (possibly)
[12:30] <madsen> slomo: It shows an empty window.
[12:30] <slomo> hum
[12:30] <madsen> slomo: and hangs when I close it (like hello world).
[12:31] <slomo> yes, that's normal ;) i was too lazy
[12:31] <slomo> but hello world shouldn't hang
[12:34] <slomo> tseng: any other ideas?
[12:34] <tseng> no =/
[12:34] <tseng> "install normally"
[12:34] <tseng> it would be great to have an error to go by
[12:34] <madsen> tseng: Not an option atm. I don't have any cd's - only an iso image a friend messed up and burned (as a file) on a cd.
[12:35] <slomo> madsen: reget that file and run it... what does happen?
[12:35] <madsen> slomo: nothing, it just hangs...
[12:35] <slomo> wtf
[12:35] <tseng> no window now?
[12:35] <slomo> tseng: just a empty writeline
[12:35] <madsen> Nope, nothing.
[12:35] <tseng> oh
[12:36] <slomo> madsen: and this one?
[12:36] <madsen> slomo: still nothing
[12:36] <slomo> madsen: but it exits?
[12:36] <madsen> slomo: nope
[12:37] <slomo> madsen: this one?
[12:37] <tseng> starting to sound like funky jit?
[12:37] <madsen> slomo: Arg, wait a sec, I messed up... I kept wgetting them, but not deleting the old... :( :( :(
[12:38] <tseng> since the non-exiting gtk# bit shows something
[12:38] <slomo> ok, test all you got ;)
[12:38] <madsen> slomo: The last one exits, but I don't know about the previous one - I deleted it. :(
[12:39] <slomo> ok, test this one
[12:39] <madsen> slomo: Not exiting.
[12:40] <slomo> this one?
[12:40] <madsen> slomo: exits
[12:40] <slomo> ok
[12:40] <madsen> slomo: Getting somewhere?
[12:40] <slomo> seems like your mono keeps some threads around
[12:40] <slomo> which shouldn't be there
[12:40] <slomo> hmm
[12:41] <madsen> Hmm indeed...
[12:42] <madsen> Should I try a non-breezy mono perhaps - or will that give too many problems with libs and stuff?
[12:42] <slomo> hm, you could try mono 1.1.9 from debian unstable
[12:43] <madsen> slomo: Just the one package or the whole shabang?
[12:44] <madsen> slomo: I'll try as little as possible first... mono, mono-common and mono-jit...
[12:44] <slomo> madsen: and mono-classlib-1.0
[12:45] <madsen> slomo: Oh yeah, that too. :)
[12:48] <slomo> tseng: why is it a bad idea?
[12:48] <tseng> because his system will end up even further off the mark
[12:48] <slomo> he can reinstall the old breezy versions later if it doesn't work
[12:48] <tseng> and it wont tell us very much
[12:49] <tseng> ( was reinstalling the key alone? was it one of the many changes between 1.1.8 and 1.1.9.x? is it ubuntu vs debian bug? )
[12:49] <tseng> not to discourage, just wondering
[12:49] <madsen> tseng: Indeed. :( But I'm mystified to the point that I'm starting to think "just work dammit!"... I've spent the last 3 days trying to figure this out.
[12:50] <slomo> tseng: but when it works (which i doubt) we have a direction where to look at...
[12:50] <slomo> and he tried to reinstall before... didn't help
[12:50] <tseng> works for me.
[12:50] <madsen> tseng: Once I actually get my breezy cds I'll of course try those - no matter if the debian packages work or not.
[12:51] <tseng> madsen: great :) i hope you have good luck with those
[12:51] <madsen> tseng: Me too - otherwise I'll be ubuntu-scared for the rest of my life... :-p
[12:52] <madsen> K, got the debian packages - now for the install, which will probable complain a lot...
[12:52] <tseng> hm the packages arent far apart
[12:52] <madsen> Woh! No complains at all! :)
[12:53] <madsen> And now I'm getting a new error with banshee, but 'beagle-settings' work! :) :)
[12:53] <slomo> what error with banshee?
[12:53] <slomo> and does monodoc for example work?
[12:53] <madsen> Unhandled Exception: DBus.DBusException: Failed to connect to socket /tmp/dbus-MofjP4qFhA: Connection refused
[12:53] <slomo> ugly dbus
[12:53] <madsen> slomo: I haven't installed monodoc yet.
[12:53] <madsen> slomo: Indeed.
[12:54] <slomo> logout and login again... or even reboot ;)
[12:54] <madsen> slomo: Yeah, I'll just configure beagle and take a moment to be happy that _something_ actually works. :)
[12:56] <madsen> Ok, installing monodoc - it'll take quite a while, I'm on a 256k connection. :(
[12:58] <madsen> Ok, so with a minimal number of mono packages from debian unstable, it seems to work ... better at least... :)
[12:58] <slomo> better?
[12:58] <slomo> what works better and what doesn't work ;)
[12:58] <madsen> slomo: Well, I haven't tested banshee and monodoc yet. :)
[12:58] <madsen> slomo: I just didn't want to be too bold. ;)
[12:59] <madsen> In a minute I can tell you if monodoc works.
[01:00] <madsen> slomo: monodoc works! :D
[01:00] <slomo> hmmm
[01:01] <madsen> Gotta log out and back in to test banshee... Brb!
[01:01] <slomo> wait
[01:01] <slomo> are you on x86 or amd64?
[01:02] <ajmitch> slomo: he said x86 earlier
[01:02] <slomo> ok
[01:03] <slomo> hmm, maybe nptl problems... debian doesn't use it for !amd64
[01:03] <madsen> Yup, x86
[01:03] <madsen> Damn, gnome still takes 10 minutes to just log me in...
[01:03] <Kinnison> yum
[01:04] <madsen> slomo: nptl?
[01:05] <slomo> madsen: google ;) native posix thread library
[01:05] <madsen> slomo: Oh
[01:06] <slomo> hmm, we could test it...
[01:06] <slomo> wait
[01:06] <madsen> slomo: mind if I do a reboot? Dbus is still acting up. :-/
[01:06] <slomo> no... just come back ;)
[01:07] <madsen> slomo: I will stay here all the time. :) (screen + irssi) ;)~
[01:07] <madsen> Brb!
[01:07] <slomo> ok
[01:10] <madsen> back!
[01:11] <slomo> ok, wait some minutes please
[01:11] <madsen> K, I'm not in a hurry. :)
[01:13] <ogra> a secret brother ?
[01:14] <mpt> maybe
[01:14] <mpt> like Brad Shuttleworth
[01:15] <ogra> heh
[01:15] <ogra> he's not this secret ...
[01:17] <spayne> night all
[01:21] <ogra> mpt, did you know that bob dylans real last name is also zimmerman *and* he also plays guitar ... you'll never know the secrets of mdz ;)
[01:21] <madsen> Hmm, still getting dbus errors...
[01:23] <slomo> hmm
[01:25] <ogra> s/secrets/secret relations/
[01:34] <slomo> madsen: please try the relevant packages from http://slomosnail.de/~slomo/mono/
[01:34] <slomo> madsen: is the problem coming back?
[01:34] <madsen> slomo: K!
[01:34] <ivoks> enjoy at UBZ!
[01:34] <madsen> slomo: I'll grab them right away.
[01:34] <slomo> madsen: and i'll go to bed now... please report here anyway :) i'll read it tomorrow... good night everybody :)
[01:36] <madsen> slomo: K! Sleep tight - and thanks for all the help! :)
[01:39] <madsen> slomo: Yes, the problem is back... :-/
[01:39] <slomo> fine... what kernel are you running?
[01:39] <slomo> (still here =) )
[01:40] <madsen> 2.6.12-9-686
[01:41] <slomo> so breezy kernel... weird
[01:41] <slomo> i'll think about it and tell you tomorrow :)
[01:41] <madsen> slomo: hehe. Sleep tight! :)
[02:26] <dholbach> night guys
[03:37] <AndyFitz> here's the newest revision of the ubuntu-title font for derivative logos...  http://brisgeek.com/fonts/ubuntu-title.otf     source: http://brisgeek.com/fonts/ubuntu-title.sfd
[03:37] <AndyFitz> ogra,  can we replace the package in universe ? :)
[03:54] <bddebian> Hello
[03:54] <ajmitch> hello bddebian
[03:55] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[03:55] <ajmitch> how are you?
[03:56] <bddebian> Busy :-(  You?
[03:56] <ajmitch> busier
[03:58] <bddebian> Touche
[04:00] <ajmitch> got a todo list a mile long before friday
[04:00] <bddebian> Bah, mine is RL work :'-(
[04:01] <bddebian> Oh :-)
[04:01] <fabbione> cya in .ca
[04:01] <ajmitch> bye fabbione
[04:42] <lamont-away> daniels: libxaw hates me...  /usr/bin/ld: .libs/libXaw6.la-43.o(.text.1+0x3e8f0): cannot reach 00000038_XtSetTypeConverter+0, recompile with -ffunction-sections
[04:45] <daniels> fix your toolchain?
[04:45] <daniels> or do I really need to put -ffunction-sections in every lib I have for hppa?
[04:47] <daniels> err
[04:47] <daniels> we have libdirectfb-dev in main?
[04:49] <lamont-away> daniels: so far it's just libxaw and boost, it appears.
[04:50] <infinity> boost is the root of much, if not all, evil.
[04:50] <lamont-away> it's a toolchain issue with a non-trivial fix (as in, I'm not sure they understand the best way to make it go away...)
[04:50] <daniels> you can upload to fix it if it's really bothering you; my machine is slammed with other things (primarily mesa)
[04:50] <lamont-away> infinity: women are the root of all evil.  boost must just be most.
[04:50] <lamont-away> daniels: ok.  I'll probably upload something that adds -ffunction-sections on hppa (and mips, I gather... not that ubuntu cares...)
[04:51] <daniels> lamont-away: okay
[04:51] <lamont-away> you need a diff when I get ther?
[04:51] <infinity> lamont-away : May as well do the Debian arches too, in case gravity decides to sync from our packaging.
[04:51] <lamont-away> yeah
[04:52] <daniels> gravity is syncing from our packaging
[04:52] <daniels> lamont-away: diff will be useful but not essential
[04:52] <minghua> infinity: are you going to UBZ?
[04:52] <lamont-away> daniels: I'll stick it in the bug, I expect.
[04:52] <infinity> minghua : Yup.
[04:53] <daniels> lamont-away: thanks
[04:53] <minghua> infinity: I was thinking of writing something up about SCIM support on wiki
[04:53] <minghua> infinity: so if I do write it, you are going to be there selling it/getting feedback/etc.?
[04:53] <infinity> minghua : Well, I believe I'm leading a BOF about input methods, so anything you have to add would be nice, ezpecially if you can't be there in person.
[04:54] <minghua> infinity: cool, I'll definitely write up a page on wiki then
[04:54] <minghua> infinity: I would like to go, but I don't have vacations
[04:54] <infinity> minghua : Thanks.  Mail me at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>with a pointer to it when you're done. :)
[04:54] <minghua> infinity: sure
[04:55] <minghua> infinity: where should I put it?  does DapperGoals sound a good place?
[04:56] <infinity> Hrm.
[04:56] <minghua> or do you have a page for your BOF?
[04:56] <lamont-away> mdz: any chance of getting hppa/sparc into bz's architecture list?
[04:57] <infinity> minghua ; There's an InputMethods page... That's not the BOF page, though.
[04:57] <minghua> infinity: it's not going to be a user guide for scim, I don't have time for that
[04:57] <infinity> minghua : Oh, but the BOF links to that page currently.
[04:58] <minghua> infinity: it's just going to be "what does scim provide, what does debian currently have, and what I/we plan to do in additional to debian" type of thing
[04:58] <infinity> minghua : Look at InputMethods, and if you have stuff to add to that, just make your own section and babble in it.
[04:58] <infinity> minghua : I'll write a formal spec at UBZ, but I can't be bothered starting one now.
[04:58] <minghua> infinity: all right, I'll put something either in or under InputMethods
[05:02] <lamont-away> daniels: 18483, assigned to me
[05:04] <luis__> is there a dapper weather report?
[05:04] <luis__> like, 'stormy- hold off on updates', or 'clear skies- update now', or...?
[05:05] <infinity> ...
[05:05] <infinity> How about "we just uploaded and built 2000 random source packages, and we have no clue if any of it works"
[05:05] <infinity> Does that help?
[05:06] <bddebian> Heh
[05:06] <luis__> well, yes, that helps me personally ;) but I was wondering if there were a more public news-y source that mentioned those kinds of things, that could be monitored instead of poking the channel
[05:06] <lamont-away> luis__: the first month or two tend to be fraught with peril.
[05:06] <luis__> (mozilla used to do such a thing for HEAD, but gave up because it was fairly resource intensive for them)
[05:06] <mdz> lamont-away: I think that's a twiddle-in-the-db sort of operation
[05:06] <mdz> lamont-away: it should appear in malone fairly soon though
[05:07] <lamont-away> luis__: it's a development release... anything before UVF is something that developers want to install on a test box long before they put it on any machine they care about, and users really don't want ot mess with..
[05:07] <luis__> lamont-away: I'm not a total newb, thanks ;)
[05:07] <infinity> luis__ : Subscribe to dapper-changes and ubuntu-changes-auto if you want to see what's going in on any given day.
[05:07] <infinity> luis__ : If you had done that two days ago, your INBOX would be flooded right now.

[05:08] <lamont-away> infinity: I only have 1MB of dapper-changes... hardly anything. :-)
[05:08] <lamont-away> breezy finished out at 59MB
[05:08] <lamont-away> and hoary only had 21MB... that's a scary trend.
[05:09] <luis__> 40MB of that being X changes ;)
[05:09] <infinity> lamont-away : Well, yes, the people who whined to me about -changes got an earful about builg log mail. :)
[05:09] <wasabi> Hmm. Isn't there some simple daemon tool to make init scripts that just launch and monitor simple commands?
[05:09] <lamont-away> infinity: yea, verily
[05:09] <lamont-away> wasabi: start-stop-daemon
[05:09] <lamont-away> :-)
[05:09] <wasabi> That will watch?
[05:09] <infinity> No.
[05:09] <wasabi> I need to monitor for death.
[05:09] <lamont-away> no
[05:10] <infinity> You want daemon-tools, but without the djb crack associated with it.
[05:10] <infinity> Someone must have NIHd it by now.
[05:12] <infinity> wasabi : runit, perhaps?
[05:12] <wasabi> Hmm. Cool.
[05:13] <sfvt_> wasabi, see monit: http://www.tildeslash.com/monit/
[05:13] <infinity> Another daemontools-alike...
[05:14] <infinity> Though, it seems a bit more..bloated.
[05:16] <daniels> ugh, daemontools
[05:16] <infinity> The conecept doesn't irk me nearly as much as the implementation.
[05:17] <daniels> well, the usual djb NIH
[05:17] <daniels> 'unix? what's that?'
[05:17] <infinity> That fact that runit does daemontools-like things, but in a SysV init system makes it pretty attractive.
[05:17] <daniels> see, in a sysv system, makes it far better already.  plus its author presumably isn't as much of a useless tool.
[05:17] <infinity> I'll admit to never having installed runit, though, it just looks neat on paper. :)
[05:17] <wasabi> Trying to make a dirt easy init process for vblade (AoE)
[05:27] <daniels> hm
[05:27] <daniels> what's this new multi-contributor changelog format we're all supposed to be using or something?
[05:28] <infinity> dch creates it automagically if it detects a need.
[05:29] <daniels> oh, so it does.  neat.
[05:29] <infinity> I, personally, detest the format.  But whatever. :)
[05:30] <daniels> i thought it was meant to be a ' -- Foo Bar<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[date] ' for everyone
[05:30] <infinity> That would break the changelog format in horrible ways.
[05:31] <infinity> This is non-intrusive and works with older parsers.
[05:32] <minghua> infinity: just for curiosity, what is the format you want?
[05:32] <infinity> minghua : The one I use. :)
[05:33] <infinity>  * Contributor One<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:33] <infinity>    - Changed stuff
[05:33] <infinity>  * Contributor Two<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:33] <infinity>    - Changed other stuff
[05:34] <minghua> I see
[05:34] <infinity> But, to each their own.
[05:34] <infinity> It's irritating that the devscripts format removes the email address for all but the uploader.
[05:35] <bob2> isn't that basically how everyone has done it in Debian for a thousand years?
[05:35] <infinity> Makes it harder to hunt down the person responsible for change Foo.
[05:35] <bddebian> perfect :-)
[05:35] <minghua> maybe the devscripts maintainer can be persuade to use [Contributor one<EMAIL_ADDRESS>in the current format?
[05:36] <infinity> Yeah, probably, but I've never bothered to file a bug (or change devscripts in Ubuntu to be gratuitously different), because I just don't care that much. :)
[05:39] <bob2> booze?
[05:41] <infinity> No, I'll get that in Canada. :)
[05:41] <infinity> I need a new backpack, though.
[05:41] <infinity> And a haircut.
[05:41] <daniels> mullet?
[05:42] <infinity> I figure Mark's shallow enough that if I want to talk about money, I best be looking.. Well..  I think my hair is long enough to do a tropical-fish dew for the day...
[06:03] <dilinger> argh
[06:03] <lamont-away> d
[06:03] <dilinger>  files list file for package `gnome-applets-data' contains empty filename
[06:03] <dilinger> Errors were encountered while processing:
[06:03] <dilinger>  /var/cache/apt/archives/gnome-applets-data_2.12.1-0ubuntu1_all.deb
[06:03] <dilinger> this machine's hung twice during this dist-upgrade
[06:03] <lamont-away> dilinger: way cool.
[06:04] <dilinger> and now it looks like ext3 is going to stage a revolt :/
[06:04] <daniels> i wonder if anyone would notice if I added XK_yarr to keysymdef.h, rebuilt libx11 against it, and changed the default keymap to 'pirate' one day
[06:04] <daniels> every key -> skull and crossbones
[06:04] <lamont-away> sabdfl: although it would be kinda cool to run ubuntu-server on hp's superdome
[06:05] <sabdfl> lamont-away: in the hair department, i'm learning that nothing is permanent
[06:05] <lamont> sabdfl: pulling it out does not count as 'balding'. :-)
[06:06] <mdz> that ship sailed long ago for me
[06:06] <dilinger> i can't even dpkg --purge --force-all gnome-applets-data
[06:06] <dilinger> hrmph.
[06:06] <daniels> i still retain my beautiful flowing locks
[06:07] <luis__> thats because you're, like, 12
[06:07] <luis__> :)
[06:07] <daniels> easy, or I'll break your hip
[06:08] <dilinger> hey, neat.  i dunno wtf this is in /var/lib/dpkg/info/gnome-applets-data.list, but it's definitely not the package's file list
[06:08] <infinity> Heh.
[06:08] <infinity> Is it binary? :)
[06:09] <sabdfl> lamont: if you can get them donated and shipped, we will love them and house them and tend to them and even build on them
[06:09] <dilinger> no, text.  it looks like part of a Packages file, and.. something else mixed in.
[06:09] <infinity> lamont : Start the shaving process.  He's unconvinced.
[06:10] <daniels> sabdfl: as opposed to, say, love them and house them and tend to them and just cat /proc/cpuinfo on them for kicks every now and again
[06:10] <sabdfl> jbailey: around?
[06:10] <lamont> sabdfl: I expect I can scrounge up something fat to ship
[06:10] <dilinger> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::logic_error'
[06:10] <dilinger>   what():  basic_string::_S_construct NULL not valid
[06:10] <sabdfl> lamont: DOIT
[06:10] <lamont> I assume '4' is the magic number?
[06:10] <sabdfl> 4... u?
[06:11] <sabdfl> 4.... processors?
[06:11] <lamont> 4 machines
[06:11] <sabdfl> 4.... me?
[06:11] <daniels> jbailey: how much convincing would it take for you to turn your very nice long hair (and it is very nice) into a huge rat tail?
[06:11] <infinity> lamont : Oh, if you can, then ship to me, too.
[06:11] <lamont> infinity: I expect I probably can... it's more a scrounging exercise....
[06:11] <lamont> sabdfl: I'll shoot for something in the 2U range, and at least 2 of them.
[06:12] <lamont> probably don't really need a porter-machine for hppa
[06:12] <infinity> lamont : Multi-core?
[06:12] <lamont> infinity: could be 2-way, I expect
[06:13] <sabdfl> lamont: that will likely do. tradition has for 1 porting and 3 buildd, but you would know what you need
[06:13] <infinity> lamont : 8900s, or are they too shiny to free up?
[06:13] <mdz> sabdfl: jbailey turned in about 45m ago
[06:13] <sabdfl> what would really be nice is enough remote management for you / infinity to test the installer against them when they are not building
[06:13] <sabdfl> sensible man
[06:14] <sabdfl> and since we are now on his timezone, i think i might do the same
[06:14] <mdz> sleep is almost a foregone conclusion with an 0645 pickup
[06:14] <infinity> sabdfl : That would be rather nice if we could get remote console access to the current machines, yes.
[06:14] <sabdfl> mdz: spec bits charging for production at an alarming rate, take a squizz in 20
[06:15] <sabdfl> infinity: help iwj / mdz / elmo spec automated install testing at ubz
[06:15] <mdz> sabdfl: you haven't slept?
[06:15] <sabdfl> mdz: no. drank a little though
[06:16] <mdz> sabdfl: sometimes that counts
[06:16] <daniels> near enough's good enough
[06:16] <sabdfl> daniels: so, you're suggesting up not move to dapper before heading for bed, then?
[06:16] <mdz> sabdfl: launchpad told me it was going down for maintenance in 7 minutes, about an hour ago
[06:17] <sabdfl> mdz: it came up. going back down. will come back up. then take a squizz.
[06:17] <daniels> sabdfl: x is still half-half, because some packages are binary-NEW
[06:17] <mdz> squizz standing by
[06:17] <lamont> sabdfl: we'll eventually get all 4...
[06:17] <mdz> almost finished packing
[06:17] <daniels> sabdfl: but the packages themselves work fine (the same packages that upgraded okay for everyone else, same packages I've been running for a few days), so
[06:17] <lamont> I'll probably wind up shipping one, getting it happy, and then shipping the one that is the current buildd for hppa/ubuntu
[06:17] <lamont> then comes the hard scrounging
[06:18] <lamont> as in actually finding someone who's willing to pony up a little cash for my pet project.
[06:18] <sabdfl> lamont: that's cool. scrounging means a bit of diversity, which is actually nice
[06:18] <daniels> sabdfl: it's generally solid, though
[06:18] <sabdfl> daniels: ok, will brave the drake at ubz
[06:19] <daniels> sabdfl: being able to beat the person responsible for breakage usually makes for good upgrading
[06:19] <infinity> Amen to that.
[06:19] <mdz> queue/new is bulging
[06:19] <sabdfl> daniels: it's not technically in your contract, but i'll hold you to it. or it to you.
[06:19] <sabdfl> elmo: ?
[06:19] <sabdfl> slacker
[06:19] <infinity> mdz : Yeah, I've noticed. :)
[06:20] <daniels> sabdfl: what're you talking about? there's a whole section about optional bonuses, right there.
[06:20] <sabdfl> binus whooopin'?
[06:21] <infinity> I'm not sure that means that your employer can optionally assign himself the bonus of beating the tar out of you.
[06:21] <infinity> But an interesting interpretation.
[06:22] <daniels> infinity: not an interpretation I'm sure I like
[06:22] <daniels> sabdfl: that's not *quite* what I had in mind ...
[06:22] <sabdfl> infinity: you haven't ever been to an ubuntu dev summit in a foreign timezone, haveya?
[06:23] <infinity> sabdfl : And after this one, I still won't have, since I htink I've been living in Canadian timezones ever since I moved to Australia.
[06:23] <daniels> yeah.  oxford wasn't a foreign tz for me, since by then I had no home tz.
[06:23] <daniels> (slept two random two-hour hits most days, at totally random times.)
[06:24] <mdz> daniels: the only binary-new obviously-X package I see is xserver-kdrive
[06:26] <daniels> mdz: hm, xdmx-utils (xorg-server) should be NEW
[06:28] <wasabi> I thought X was moving out of /usr/X11R6
[06:28] <infinity> mdz : Scratch that, daniel has some FTBFSs to deal with. :)
[06:35] <lamont> sabdfl: I'm trying to remember - does this mean I have to shave my head, or not?
[06:35] <infinity> lamont : It can't hurt.
[06:35] <lamont> infinity: yes it can.
[06:35] <lamont> there's this scar, you see..
[06:35] <infinity> Even better.
[06:35] <infinity> Dress it up.
[06:35] <lamont> it seems that the Japanese have really short doors.
[06:36] <sabdfl> lamont: no. just send 'em and we'll tend 'em
[06:36] <sabdfl> night now. really.
[06:36] <lamont> g'night
[06:36] <infinity> mdz : readline-common needs to be promoted to main.
[06:37] <infinity> mdz : New libreadline5 depends on it.
[06:38] <infinity> mdz : We'll be hitching up on a fair few builds until that migrates.
[06:38] <mdz> infinity: looks like elmo updated teri for dapper, so I'll move it
[06:38] <infinity> Sweet, thanks.
[06:46] <mdz> infinity: is gcc unbroken?
[06:50] <mdz> looks like jamesh and I will be on the same flight
[06:50] <mdz> infinity: you, too, but on a different day
[06:54] <daniels> i'm flying through frigging honolulu
[06:54] <daniels> since edward somehow managed to book me on a direct syd->yvr flight that no longer exists originally
[06:59] <daniels> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4376548.stm
[07:00] <daniels> Los Angeles police sparked a surprising sight when they led away real-life versions of cuddly Sesame Street Muppet Elmo and cartoon hero Mr Incredible.
[07:05] <dilinger> "They jumped out of their cars with guns drawn," said Mr Harper, who says he makes up to $400 a day in tips.
[07:05] <dilinger> i'm in the wrong business
[07:06] <HrdwrBoB> damn
[07:07] <daniels> 80k/yr, presumably tax-free, isn't too bad
[07:11] <HrdwrBoB> that's a good point, how on earth does the US tax all those tips?
[07:12] <minghua> I read (on my tax forms) you are supposed to report the amount yourself
[07:12] <HrdwrBoB> heh, I'm sure that goes very well
[07:13] <dilinger> probably the same way the US taxes other forms of income that aren't through some company; the honor system
[08:24] <pef> hello
[08:53] <infinity> mdz : gcc will remain broken until it gets synced from sid.
[09:12] <mdke> question: are the backports repositories going to be created on release for dapper, or some time after? If the latter, we need to correct our documentation...
[09:24] <dholbach> good morning
[09:25] <Treenaks> mr holbach! :)
[09:26] <ajmitch> hello dholbach
[09:32] <dholbach> hey Treenaks, ajmitch :)
[10:13] <spayne> mornin' all
[10:14] <mdke> can anyone answer my backports question, above?
[10:15] <spayne> mdke: what's the question? sorry - just joined
[10:15] <sivang> GOod morning all
[10:16] <mdke> spayne,  are the backports repositories going to be created on release for dapper, or some time after?
[10:16] <dholbach> ubuntu-backports@ should know
[10:16] <spayne> hey dholbach
[10:17] <spayne> mdke: i think they start as soon as packages that are in Dapper and want to be backported
[10:18] <spayne> launchpad is down - is that known?
[10:18] <mdke> dholbach, thanks
[10:18] <spayne> it's up now :)
[10:18] <mdke> spayne, pretty strange to have the archive in the default sources.list but not even create the archive
[10:18] <mdke> dholbach, is that @lists?
[10:19] <dholbach> yep
[10:19] <mdke> thanks
[10:19] <spayne> mdke: i know but it was part of the deal when backports become offical IIRC
[10:22] <spayne> sigh - still not on the Members list ;)
[10:22] <mdke> spayne, you don't lose anything by not being on there
[10:23] <spayne> mdke: thanks
[10:24] <mdke> if it's blocking your work you should definitely contact someone about it
[10:25] <spayne> mdke: without that, is there any proof i'm a member :)
[10:26] <ajmitch> spayne: does it matter if you haven't been added within a few hours?
[10:26] <spayne> ajmitch: no no, not at all
[10:26] <mdke> spayne, who do you need to prove it to?
[10:27] <spayne> mdke: no one
[10:27] <mdke> oh
[10:56] <spayne> jdub: ping
[11:10] <freeflying> /usr/include/c++/4.0.2/bits/stl_vector.h: In function int main(int, char**):
[11:10] <freeflying> /usr/include/c++/4.0.2/bits/stl_vector.h:495: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault
[11:10] <freeflying> Please submit a full bug report,
[11:10] <freeflying> with preprocessed source if appropriate.
[11:10] <freeflying> See <URL:http://gcc.gnu.org/bugs.html> for instructions.
[11:10] <freeflying> For Debian GNU/Linux specific bug reporting instructions,
[11:10] <freeflying> see <URL:file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.0/README.Bugs>.
[11:14] <infinity> freeflying : Pasting in an IRC channel doesn't count as submitting a bug report.
[11:15] <freeflying> It's seems there sre errors of my RAM
[11:15] <hunger> freeflying: Use memtest86 for a couple opf hours to make sure.
[11:17] <freeflying> when I use gentoo to emerge something big like Xorg ,my gcc will crach
[11:18] <infinity> Are you overclocking your front side bus?
[11:18] <infinity> Or just plain overheating in any way?
[11:18] <infinity> That'll make GCC segv like nobody's business.
[11:19] <freeflying> haven't overclock anything
[11:19] <freeflying> memtest is nightmare
[11:20] <slomo> elmo: please sync cli-common from debian unstable... ubuntu changes can be dropped
[11:31] <zyga> morning
[11:33] <dholbach> hi zyga, hey koke
[11:36] <sivang> hi dholbach !
[11:36] <dholbach> hi sivan
[11:39] <zyga> last day to get specs online
[11:39] <zyga> dholbach: should my spec be created in launchpad or in the wiki?
[11:40] <infinity> Create the spec in the wiki, then register it in launchpad.
[11:40] <infinity> (launchpad will ask you for the URL of the wiki page)
[11:40] <zyga> ah, okay
[11:46] <sivang> zyga: if you want it to get approved, you can "Request feedback" from someone specific
[11:47] <ajmitch> sivang: approval would come during/after UBZ, I'd think?
[11:48] <zyga> sivang: how do I do that?
[11:51] <sivang> ajmitch: approval = approving if the BOF will get discussed, AFAICT
[11:52] <sivang> ajmitch: e.g., there are many suggested ideas - we couldn't possibly discuss all of them in the tight schedule, or could we? :)
[11:52] <sivang> zyga: after you registered your spec in lp,notice the right menu has "Request feedback" item
[11:53] <ajmitch> "The person responsible for approving the specification, and for reviewing the code when it's ready to be landed."
[11:53] <zyga> ah, okay I'm still copying the specs to the wiki from gedit, it'll take a while
[11:53] <infinity> sivang : no, from my phone discussion with mdz and sabdfl, it looks like the "approver" is the person assigned to go over the spec after it's drafter ad make sure it's sane.  Which comes after the BOF.
[11:54] <zyga> WaterSevenUb: morning :-)
[11:54] <infinity> s/drafter/drafted/
[11:54] <sivang> infinity: ah, sorry for the mis guidance then - thanks for correcting me
[11:54] <WaterSevenUb> zyga, mooorning :)
[11:55] <sivang> zyga: then, what infinity said :) and you probably don't need to use that then
[11:55] <zyga> where is pitti/
[11:55] <ajmitch> infinity: ie, the people to convince and/or bribe?
[11:55] <dholbach> zyga: travelling
[11:55] <zyga> does anoyne know what happens to translations of universe packages
[11:55] <zyga> they are not rolled out as language packs
[11:56] <zyga> are they 'synced' with the package only at release time?
[11:56] <infinity> ajmitch : That's one way of looking at it.  I prefer to look at it as "the people who will shoot down the crackpot stuff, thus lessening my workload, post-UBZ", but YMMV. :)
[11:56] <infinity> zyga : universe packages don't get translations stripped.
[11:57] <infinity> zyga : They stay in the package.
[11:57] <ajmitch> infinity: a reasonable description also :)
[11:58] <infinity> We were severely lacking in crackpot-shooting-down with UDU, so ended up with a huge stack of randomly-assigned specs that didn't seem to go anywhere or be useful enough to implement anything with.
[11:58] <zyga> infinity: so i18n 'update' for universe happens only at release
[11:58] <zyga> righT?
[11:58] <infinity> Right.
[11:58] <infinity> Langpacks aren't done for universe because they'd be HUGE.
[11:58] <zyga> great
[11:59] <zyga> infinity: thanks I'm working on fixing that in general :-)
[11:59] <infinity> In theory, we could do post-release universe langpacks that only contained updates, but not the original translations.    Look at the size of the main langpacks.  Look at the number of packages in universe versus main.  Do math.
[12:00] <zyga> langpacks are a compromise
[12:00] <infinity> Heck, even the main ones were big enough that we split them (ingo base, gnome, and kde)
[12:00] <zyga> I want to scrapt them and do the right thing
[12:00] <zyga> s/scrapt/scrap/
[12:00] <infinity> What's the "right thing"?
[12:01] <infinity> Doing out-of-band updates that bypass dpkg seems evil on many levels.
[12:01] <Riddell> infinity: the split is mostly to stop unnecessary files on ubuntu for kubuntu and vice-verse
[12:01] <zyga> infinity: just read my spec in an hour ;-)
[12:01] <zyga> infinity: apt is used as a vector
[12:01] <zyga> infinity: anyway --- just wait :-)
[12:01] <infinity> Riddell : Yes, where you say "unnecessary files", I say "size"... Tomato, tomahto.
[12:01] <zyga> I'm effectively saying the same things in two windows ;-)
[12:02] <infinity> Riddell : We wouldn't care about "unnecessary files" if they were tiny and insignificant.  But they're not.
[12:02] <infinity> (Heck, if translations were tiny and insignificant, we wouldn't strip them in the first place)
[12:03] <ajmitch> hi pitti
[12:03] <pitti> Hi everybody
[12:04] <infinity> zyga : Note that langpack translations get installed to a different search path than translations in the packages themselves, so there's no overlap issues if we were to provide universe langpack updates to override/augment the shipped translations.  It's just the size issue that's worth looking at.
[12:04] <infinity> Hey pitti. :)
[12:04] <pitti> Hi infinity - greetings from the London office
[12:04] <infinity> pitti : dpkg-deb diversion hack is a success.
[12:04] <zyga> infinity: I know :-)
[12:04] <zyga> pitti: morning :-)
[12:04] <pitti> infinity: just read your reply to Scott, nice
[12:04] <pitti> Hi zyga
[12:04] <zyga> pitti: can I assign you to my specs?
[12:07] <Keybuk> infinity: I just meant that the "dpkg-deb --extract" codepath isn't used when unpacking debs
[12:07] <Keybuk> (which most people think it is)
[12:08] <Keybuk> it still does use dpkg-deb to actually pull the deb apart into the two tarfiles
[12:12] <sabdfl> mdz: ping
[12:14] <infinity> Keybuk : Yes.  I noticed. :)
[12:14] <infinity> Keybuk : I've also decided that dpkg-diverting dpkg-deb is about the dumbest idea ever.  So I went ahead and did it anyway.  Works great.
[12:15] <Keybuk> :D
[12:19] <pitti> zyga: my time is a bit limited, so I probably can't be the assignee of all specs
[12:19] <pitti> zyga: but I'll happily subscribe to them
[12:19] <pitti> zyga: I can also draft them if necessary, that's not a problem
[12:19] <pitti> zyga: but I might not be able to code them
[12:25] <zyga> pitti: I'm for the coding part
[12:25] <zyga> pitti: but a review is nice
[12:29] <pitti> zyga: works for me
[12:33] <Diziet> tructions to create your account:
[12:33] <Diziet>    https://launchpad.net/token/23TZx0W264NkP9rn5QnQ
[12:33] <Diziet> The Launchpad is a web portal for open source developers that
[12:33] <Diziet> includes easy web based translation and bug management. We'll
[12:33] <Diziet> be adding new features to The Launchpad based on your
[12:33] <Diziet> suggestions, so feel free to contact us on #launchpad on
[12:33] <Diziet> irc.freenode.net with ideas. Malone and Rosetta are just
[12:33] <Diziet> the tip of the iceberg ;-)
[12:34] <Diziet> Thank you!
[12:34] <Diziet> Oops, wrong window!
[01:00] <spayne> who runs The Fridge?
[01:01] <slomo> spayne: jdub afaik
[01:01] <spayne> slomo: i think he is away, is he not?
[01:02] <slomo> no idea
[01:02] <spayne> for 16 hours anyway :)
[01:03] <mdke> Znarl, got a free 60 secs?
[01:27] <mdke> spayne, you can contact the fridge at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:47] <zakame> hi all
[01:47] <jsgotangco> hi
[02:11] <zakame> where can I get a list of all packages shipped in the Breezy CD?
[02:13] <Nafallo> zakame: http://releases.ubuntu.com/5.10/*.list
[02:15] <zakame> Nafallo: ah, thanks :D
[02:57] <mdke> who would be a good person to ask to review a spec for moving documentation out of the wiki?
[02:57] <mdke> i want a few more eyeballs on it, if poss.
[02:58] <Lathiat> well, i'll look
[02:58] <Lathiat> url?
[02:58] <jsgotangco> move?
[02:59] <Lathiat> isnt that what help.ubuntu.com is for?
[02:59] <Lathiat> and also
[02:59] <Lathiat> if a wiki isn't for documentation
[02:59] <Lathiat> wtf is it for/ :)
[02:59] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:59] <bob2> Lathiat: duh, that's what the forums are for
[02:59] <mdke> Lathiat, the ubuntu wiki is used for specs, documentation, community, locoteams, and other development tools
[02:59] <Simira> yes, that's nice
[02:59] <mdke> the spec is at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/better-wiki-docs
[02:59] <bob2> wikis will weed out useful stuff like how to make the nvidia driver go faster by selecting the PCI ID
[02:59] <jsgotangco> Seveas: awesome email...traffic in the making....
[03:00] <Simira> everything in one place!
[03:00] <bob2> or how none of the k8 kernels work on amd64s
[03:00] <mdke> there are several disadvantages of the "all in one place" theory
[03:00] <mdke> as detailed in the spec. Anyhow, the more eyes on the spec, the better
[03:00] <Lathiat> bob2: nah, you need to recompile xorg with -ffast-math
[03:00] <zakame> jsgotangco: yeah, reminded me to join #edubuntu :D
[03:00] <Lathiat> selecting the pci id just doesnt do enough
[03:01] <Lathiat> mdke: so i dont think it shoudl so much be a "better wiki" as such the help.ubuntu.com site
[03:01] <Lathiat> perhaps in some kind of "unofficial" area
[03:01] <bob2> erk, designing everything through specs is dangerous
[03:01] <Lathiat> and it *really* needs to be organised better
[03:01] <mdke> Lathiat, sorry, I don't understand that
[03:01] <Lathiat> mdke: it should be on help.ubuntu.com, but probably in some kind of "Unofficial User Suggestions" area
[03:02] <Lathiat> and perhaps promoted by someone intelligent to some "better" area
[03:02] <Nafallo> bob2: ehm, none of the k8-kernels work?
[03:02] <mdke> Lathiat, you are suggesting forking to two documentation wikis? that would be pretty crazy
[03:02] <bob2> Nafallo: according to some delightful forum posts
[03:02] <mdke> anyhow, OT, let's go to #-doc
[03:02] <Lathiat> mdke: no, im suggesting putting it in a subsection
[03:02] <Lathiat> mdke: /Unofficial/Blah, or whatever
[03:02] <Lathiat> ok
[03:02] <Nafallo> bob2: wow. must be lusers :-).
[03:02] <bob2> letting random clueless people put documention up is a danger
[03:03] <mdke> anyhow the question was, who would be a good "official-ish" person to read the spec, other than those who have written it?
[03:04] <jbailey> Anyone know *why* sabdfl was pinging me in the middle of a discussion about haircuts? =)
[03:04] <mdke> lol
[03:04] <bob2> that spec seems to have stated a problem without any evidence
[03:04] <mdke> bob2, -doc
[03:06] <mdke> aha, yeah nice hair
[03:07] <ssh_rdp> hey , where is fabbio ?
[03:07] <Seveas> jsgotangco, thanks
[03:08] <jsgotangco> the one with blue highlights!
[03:08] <jsgotangco> or the one eating a banana during UDU
[03:09] <ssh_rdp> :-?
[03:09] <ssh_rdp> fabbione
[03:09] <mdke> jbailey, google just has one under images
[03:10] <jsgotangco> try removing the adult filters heh
[03:10] <jbailey> mdke: This is my favourite one right now: http://www.pateam.org/images/OLS/OLS2005/tn/IMGP0238.jpg.html
[03:11] <Treenaks> jbailey: that's you from the front?
[03:11] <azeem> http://web.walfield.org/~neal/photos/200307-norway/vigeland-jeff-2.html
[03:11] <Treenaks> azeem: ...
[03:12] <mdke> nice
[03:13] <jsgotangco> jbailey: the blue highlights look sooo anime...
[03:13] <jbailey> azeem: True, but in fairness at least it's not http://web.walfield.org/~neal/photos/200307-norway/vigeland-neal-marcus-1-small.html =)
[03:14] <jbailey> jsgotangco: Yeah.  I need to get them redone soon.
[03:14] <azeem> =)
[03:15] <Treenaks> jbailey: or http://web.walfield.org/~neal/photos/200307-norway/vigeland-neal-2-small.html
[03:17] <ssh_rdp> when can i find him?
[03:20] <mdke> bob2, i'd like to know your views, can you join #ubuntu-doc?
[03:20] <lifeless> jbailey: hello from the same city!
[03:22] <jsgotangco> whoa
[03:22] <jsgotangco> lifeless: already in montreal?
[03:24] <jbailey> lifeless: Ooo!  You're in Montral already?
[03:24] <lifeless> jbailey: yeth
[03:24] <lifeless> jsgotangco: ditto
[03:24] <zakame> jsgotangco: when are you going? :)
[03:24] <jbailey> lifeless: Interested in coming over and keeping doko and I from getting work done? =)  We're in a toolchain minisprint. =)
[03:25] <lifeless> jbailey: how far to your place ?
[03:25] <jbailey> lifeless: From here?  2 or 3 metres.
[03:25] <Treenaks> *headdesk*
[03:25] <Treenaks> what's the weather like in $city?
[03:25] <jsgotangco> lol
[03:26] <lifeless> jbailey: from $whereIam
[03:26] <Treenaks> lifeless: maps.google.com :)
[03:26] <lifeless> Treenaks: and that helps me determine travel time how ?
[03:26] <jbailey> lifeless: It has source and destination.
[03:27] <Treenaks> lifeless: it'll give you distance
[03:27] <jbailey> lifeless: But better than that.. WTH are you? =)
[03:27] <Treenaks> lifeless: distance / speed = time
[03:27] <lifeless> jbailey: holiday inn
[03:27] <Lathiat> Treenaks: or better yet distance / time = speed
[03:27] <lifeless> Treenaks: I am not a crow
[03:27] <jbailey> Treenaks: Effective temp (including windchill) of -1C, Actual 4C, raining.
[03:28] <Treenaks> jbailey: thanks, now I know what to pack :)
[03:28] <jbailey> lifeless: Do you remember off hand which subway station is closest?
[03:28] <lifeless> jbailey: you have a subway ?
[03:28] <jbailey> Treenaks: Remember to bring a Hallowe'en costume. =)
[03:28] <jbailey> lifeless: No, but the city does.
[03:28] <jbailey> I had one but had to sell it..
[03:28] <lifeless> sweet
[03:28] <lifeless> hope you got a profit
[03:28] <Lathiat> haha
[03:29] <Treenaks> jbailey: I have Corel Linux CDs
[03:29] <lifeless>   Holiday Inn Select
[03:29] <lifeless> MONTREAL-CTR VLE-DWTN CONV CTR
[03:29] <lifeless> 99 VIGER AVE & ST. URBAIN ST.
[03:29] <lifeless> MONTREAL, QC H2Z1E9
[03:30] <jbailey> lifeless: You're 4km from here.
[03:30] <Treenaks> Diziet: you did 'sync'
[03:30] <lifeless> jbailey: thats reasonably close
[03:30] <Treenaks> Diziet: and it's syncing everything out to disk?
[03:30] <lifeless> jbailey: cab//subway best ?
[03:30] <jbailey> lifeless: You're closest to Place D'Armes mtro
[03:31] <lifeless> Where do I need to get to ?
[03:31] <jbailey> http://www.stcum.qc.ca/ is english metro map
[03:31] <lifeless> (subway wise)
[03:31] <jbailey> (switching to /msg)
[03:31] <Diziet> treenaks: No, just a simple matter of making 108145 hardlinks.
[03:32] <Treenaks> Diziet: still needs to be synced to disk :)
[03:32] <zakame> wb Seveas
[03:34] <Treenaks> hm.
[03:35] <sivang> Treenaks: this time we arrive the same time so you wouldn't be able to publish photos eh? :)
[03:35] <sivang> does anybody know if we got soft midi working out of the box in breezy?
[03:35] <Treenaks> sivang: no, and I probably won't be staying at the same place as you
[03:36] <sivang> Treenaks: oh
[03:36] <Treenaks> sivang: unless you're staying in the 500m-away-hostel
[03:49] <salgado> jbailey, around?
[03:49] <jbailey> salgado: yoyosup?
[03:51] <salgado> jbailey, does the scripts inside the hooks/ dir will be run after mkinitramfs finishes?
[03:52] <sivang> lamont: she's supposed to file auto merge bugs into bugzilla right?
[03:53] <jbailey> salgado: They're invoked as part of mkinitramfs.
[03:53] <jbailey> salgado: Are you just trying to figure out the order, or is there a bug you're chasing?
[03:53] <jbailey> salgado: (So I know what info to give you)
[03:54] <salgado> jbailey, I was trying to figure out the order. I need to add a post-mkinitramfs-run script
[03:54] <salgado> is it possible to do that?
[03:55] <jbailey> salgado: Not really, no.  The hooks run near to the end, but not after it.  What do you need the script to do?  Maybe we can solve the problem another way.
[03:56] <lamont> Simira: yes
[03:56] <lamont> s/Simira/sivang/
[03:56] <salgado> jbailey, I want to have the network bootable images automatically generated when a new kernel is installed
[03:57] <jbailey> salgado: Right, you have two problems I think:
[03:57] <jbailey> 1) initramfs can be regenerated by many apps in dapper
[03:58] <jbailey> 2) There's no promise that this is the last step in preparing the kernel in the kernel scripts.
[03:58] <jbailey> To solve #1, you need hooks in initramfs-tools
[03:58] <jbailey> To solve #2, you need a hook in the kernel package.
[04:00] <salgado> something like a postinst in the kernel package? or would that be run before the initramfs is generated?
[04:00] <Keybuk> jbailey: here's a crazy thought ...
[04:00] <Keybuk> generate it in an rc6.d script
[04:03] <zakame> haha
[04:03] <Keybuk> it's not actually a "funny"
[04:03] <Keybuk> Windows does this for a few things, stashes them to be done at shutdown/reboot
[04:05] <Keybuk> if the user just powers off their machine or hard-resets it, there are other potential problems like whatever we just put on the filesystem not being there anymore ...
[04:07] <zakame> eh?
[04:07] <zakame> oh, the "haha" :( sorry, wrogn chan)
[04:07] <Keybuk> ahh
[04:39] <Keybuk> it's soooo quiet
[04:40] <zakame> I suppose folks are packing for Montreal
[04:46] <jsgotangco> Keybuk: where does the F1 app pull data from? the live timing? was thinking of the same for A1
[04:47] <Keybuk> there's a server the FIA provide that outputs it
[04:47] <Keybuk> no idea whether A1 have anything similar
[04:48] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[04:50] <Keybuk> most of the work was painstakingly reverse engineering the network protocol to figure it out
[05:05] <trulux> morning
[05:09] <sivang> hey trulux
[05:18] <mdke> Znarl, ping?
[05:19] <zakame> hey trulux
[05:19] <Znarl> mdke : Hello!
[05:19] <mdke> Znarl, the ip address of doc.ubuntu.com seems to be weirdly oscillating between the old and new, (http://pastebin.com/406321) is this normal? any ideas what is wrong?
[05:19] <trulux> heya guys :)
[05:19] <trulux> how's it going?
[05:20] <Znarl> mdke : Ohh, I'll fix that.
[05:20] <mdke> Znarl, merci
[05:20] <mdke> Znarl, also, any news on rt #567
[05:20] <mdke> ?
[05:21] <Znarl> mdke : That's going to have to wait I'm affraid.
[05:21] <mdke> k
[05:21] <Znarl> It's super urgent?  Generally urgent or nice for it to be done?
[05:22] <mdke> no not urgent, just nice, but i've been waiting a couple of weeks on it, due to no fault of you guys
[05:23] <mdke> let's face it, it's not gonna be done once UBZ starts, right?
[05:23] <Diziet> ubuntu.com: warning: glueless NS ns0.blackcatnetworks.co.uk ([<IP_ADDRESS>]  g.gtld-servers.net, server for com)
[05:23] <sivang> mdke: can anyone access rt?
[05:24] <mdke> sivang, not sure
[05:24] <Diziet> And the same warning about ns1.
[05:24] <Znarl> Diziet : Yes. :(  This will be fixed in the next few days.
[05:25] <Diziet> OK.
[05:25] <Diziet> I just thought you might like to know ...
[05:25] <Znarl> We're changing our DNS hosting to avoid many problems such as this one and mdke strange docs resolving issues.
[05:25] <Diziet> I use BCN and don't have glueless nameservers :-P.
[05:26] <Diziet> (And I don't have `strange resolving issues' either, generally.)
[05:27] <Znarl> Diziet : Yes, thanks for letting me know about ubuntu.com.  :P
[05:33] <dholbach> hi BenC
[05:52] <xTina> Is it on purpose that /usr/bin/xterm does not write any utmp entries, even if run with +ut?
[05:58] <Keybuk> does Canada use dodgy american spit at you and try to kill you power sockets?
[05:58] <dilinger> american power sockets spit at you?
[05:59] <Keybuk> yes, they're evil
[05:59] <dilinger> what'd you do to piss them off?
[05:59] <sivang> Keybuk: I didn't know that
[05:59] <dilinger> last time i was in montreal i seem to recall not needing power adapters
[06:00] <Keybuk> dilinger: they just barely hold the plugs in, and spit at you when you plug things in, pull things out, or even go near them
[06:00] <robitaille> I'm looking around me in my office, and none of these canadian power sockets are spitting at me this morning :)
[06:00] <dilinger> Keybuk: i think that's more a factor of the wiring in the place you're in, and the state of the wall sockets
[06:01] <dilinger> someplace that isn't falling apart or 100 years old shouldn't be spitting at you or dropping your plugs
[06:01] <robitaille> but generally canadian wiring/sockets are exactly like the ones in the US.
[06:01] <mdke> surely US voltage is ok for european stuff, it's only the other way round that things start getting crazy
[06:02] <Keybuk> dilinger: bear in mind the country I come from believe in absolute safely when it comes to plug design, there's absolutely no possible way you can be electrocuted or start a fire with a british plug, and if you get mugged you can use them as a weapon
[06:03] <dilinger> Keybuk: we like to let our kids learn about electricity at a young age, w/ hands-on experience
[06:04] <lamont> Keybuk: I mean, it's not like it'll kill you or anything........
[06:05] <sivang> Keybuk: lol, do you have a photo of those? what's the voltage there in England?
[06:05] <Diziet> Try running a British kettle off US voltage and see how long it takes to boil water ...
[06:05] <zul> heh i shocked my electiricy lab partner
[06:06] <Diziet> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=150692&N=401
[06:06] <spayne> why not just take a portable generator with you :)
[06:06] <spayne> would probally save a lot of problems
[06:07] <lamont> Keybuk: I like the .za plugs much better for weapons potential.
[06:08] <lamont> of course, it's always appropriate to bring UK adapters (so you can plug into a UK outlet) to ubuntu conferences
[06:09] <sivang> Diziet: that's a british one?
[06:09] <Mithrandir> I'll just bring my spiked ball-o-death which can also be used as a weapon.
[06:09] <Diziet> Hopefully in Montreal I'll be able to buy a US-plug-to-3-pin-laptop lead.
[06:10] <lamont> sivang: yes, uk adapter
[06:10] <lamont> US appliances tend to work in canada
[06:10] <lamont> but iz 120VC
[06:10] <lamont> s/C$//
[06:11] <sivang> hmm, I now notice what we have in .IL is probably an antique version of the current british one
[06:11] <dilinger> oh yea, right
[06:11] <sivang> Diziet: is england 220V ?
[06:13] <mdke> 240
[06:15] <Diziet> 230.
[06:15] <Diziet> Europe has standardised on 230.
[06:15] <spayne> Seveas: ping
[06:16] <Seveas> spayne, pong
[06:16] <mdke> my bad
[06:17] <Diziet> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_%28UK%29.
[06:42] <jsgotangco> good night :)
[06:51] <zul> circuit city has plugs if you need them
[06:56] <Diziet> Damn, I made my ffox build get past the sticking point but of course now it actually has to compile the damn files.  (ccache)
[06:59] <lamont> mdz/kamion/elmo: if you're so inclined, NEWing tex-common would free up large portions of the dapper world.
[06:59] <lamont> (tetex-base is currently uninstallable)
[07:06] <\sh> evening
[07:06] <dholbach> bbl
[07:06] <dholbach> lunch :)
[07:14] <\sh> Treenaks: I'm looking like my hackergotchi?
[07:15] <\sh> Treenaks: i think my hackergotchi looks better ,)
[07:16] <\sh> hehe
[07:18] <sivang> hey \sh
[07:21] <\sh> bbl
[07:21] <Diziet> Wahey, my strange mutant ffox build finished and made a .deb.  Now I can see how badly it fails to work.
[07:37] <\sh> Diziet: hey....u don't work for nagra? ,-)
[07:38] <Diziet> Answer: it fails run-time linking :-/.
[07:38] <slomo> infinity: can you tell me what happened to my xmms-musepack upload over one hour ago? it was announced at dapper-changes but even the source isn't in the archives yet... other packages i uploaded after that one are already build and everything ;)
[07:38] <\sh> Diziet: well..this' better then crashing after 146MB of ram size ...
[07:42] <cevizoglu> join #debian
[07:43] <Nafallo> cevizoglu: all of us?
[07:45] <cevizoglu> doh
[07:45] <cevizoglu> sorry
[07:45] <Nafallo> ah, typo :-)
[07:46] <Nafallo> np
[07:58] <Diziet> Looks like my build was tainted somehow and I'll have to start from the beginning.  I hope ccache isn't buggy, or I'll be very confused and then very annoyed.
[08:00] <\sh> g'night
[08:08] <spayne> jdub: ping
[08:09] <jdub> spayne: pong
[09:26] <jdub> fuck this! i'm running dapper!
[09:26] <Amaranth> heh
[09:29] <cevizoglu> jdub: whatever floats your boat
[09:29] <jdub> gosh, even with X, it's only a 100MB download
[09:31] <mdke> it'll get crazier :)
[09:44] <spayne> jdub: what's torn you to dapper already?
[09:45] <Amaranth> pyxdg did it for me
[09:45] <Amaranth> (i could have just downloaded and installed)
[09:45] <Amaranth> but this is a vmware image, i took a snapshot before upgrading the first time
[09:45] <spayne> now that's a good idea Amaranth
[09:46] <Amaranth> less
[09:46] <Amaranth> much less
[09:46] <Amaranth> dapper is more polish, breezy was 3 or so huge changes happening all at once
[09:47] <spayne> GCC 4, Xorg Modularisation and.....
[09:47] <Amaranth> a couple of package name changes and such that caused massive ammounts of churn
[09:47] <spayne> Mono as well!
[09:48] <ajmitch> there was no big mono change
[09:48] <spayne> ajmitch: Mono versions were bumped a lot
[09:48] <spayne> ajmitch: which iirc, ended up in packages being broken for a while
[09:48] <ajmitch> which affected only a very small portion of the archive
[09:48] <rob^^^> is there a way to add user defined tags to Launchpad entries?
[09:48] <Amaranth> sure, mono packages broken for awhile
[09:49] <Amaranth> big deal
[09:49] <ajmitch> and most packages were not broken for very long at all
[09:49] <Amaranth> X and gcc caused the entire system to break
[09:49] <jdub> spayne: diligence as an ubuntu devel branch user
[09:49] <spayne> Amaranth: many an evening, i'd come home and be locked out of X :(
[09:49] <spayne> jdub: woo!
[09:50] <spayne> jdub: so you''ve ran the stable branch for a week or two :)
[09:51] <rob^^^> spayne: I actually had one machine that made it all the way from hoary to breezy without running unstable
[09:51] <cevizoglu> jdub: I hate kernel panics, so I only run OS releases three months prior at the maximum  :P
[09:51] <spayne> rob^^^:  now, that's a miracle :)
[09:52] <rob^^^> A personal box even, the servers really aren't a temptation
[09:52] <cevizoglu> last year I got 35 kernel panics on a friuty  OS which shall rename nameless... no more for me
[09:53] <cevizoglu> er, remain even
[09:53] <linuxboy> I got a question about a document for ubuntu, can I ask it here?
[09:53] <rob^^^> cevizoglu: My experience with the Fruit-based computer's Kernel panics is that they are either hardware or copy-protection related 99% of the time
[09:53] <spayne> hey linuxboy
[09:53] <spayne> linuxboy: try #ubuntu-doc
[09:53] <linuxboy> oh. spayne
[09:53] <linuxboy> ah
[09:53] <linuxboy> cool
[09:54] <spayne> hmm...banannaOS
[09:54] <linuxboy> spayne: I think its the wrong place to ask
[09:54] <linuxboy> I'll ask here anyway
[09:54] <spayne> linuxboy: what's up?
[09:55] <farruinn> rob^^^: I agree - I've only gotten kernel panics due to faulty hardware
[09:55] <linuxboy> I have a bunch of ubuntu pcs at work, which I manage. I use things like 'dsh' to do so. Is there a wiki page/doc all about managing muliple ubuntu pcs in a office situation?
[09:55] <spayne> rob^^^:  i find that that company must not have a good QA department
[09:55] <linuxboy> if not, I want to start one
[09:55] <spayne> linuxboy: have you searched the Wiki
[09:55] <rob^^^> I have a lab with 9/16 G5s that were unbootable and had motherboard or cpu swapped during the first year
[09:56] <farruinn> that's really unlucky
[09:56] <spayne> rob^^^: i just bought a Mac Mini and dual boot Ubuntu/OS X and love it
[09:56] <linuxboy> spayne: a bit, but I'm not too sure which keywords to use
[09:56] <rob^^^> I was thinking it would be nice to mark all the drake-related features as to whether they were features or inferstructure
[09:56] <spayne> but my iBook is 18 months old, has had 25 new parts and 9 repairs jobs
[09:56] <farruinn> although we've sent back countless iMac G4's for motherboard replacement
[09:56] <spayne> linuxboy: have you looked at the LTSP stuff on the Wiki?
[09:56] <rob^^^> spayne: I've heard really nothing but good things about minis but everything else Is very questionable
[09:57] <linuxboy> spayne: no, these PCs aren't thin clients
[10:00] <spayne> why did Mako stop writing up the CC meetings
[10:01] <mdke> spayne, lack of time
[10:01] <spayne> mdke: good reason :)
[10:02] <spayne> Seveas: sorry to bother you again but ping
[10:03] <Seveas> spayne, pong, but if it's not development related continue in private
[10:44] <dholbach> good night guys
[11:47] <spayne> night all
[11:49] <jdub> http://wildbill.nulldevice.net/archives/000147.html
[11:49] <jdub> ^ um, seriously, wow.
[11:49] <Treenaks> jdub: did you get my mail yet? :)
[11:49] <jdub> nup!
[11:50] <wasabi_> Great. Found another breezy bug.
[11:50] <Treenaks> jdub: hmm.. shall I resend to another address, try if that server likes it better>
[11:51] <jdub> Treenaks: where did you send?
[11:51] <Treenaks> jdub<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:51] <jdub> hrm
[11:51] <jdub> try<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:53] <Treenaks> jdub: sent
[11:57] <wasabi_> somehow my system has two ldap versions.
[11:57] <wasabi_> grrr.
[12:00] <wasabi_> Um.
[12:01] <wasabi_> The situation with openldap confuses me.
[12:02] <wasabi_> openldap2.2 and openldap2 are both in breezy, it appears. One produces libs and slapd, but no dev packages.