[00:00] <hubuntu> wholly cow dsas
[00:00] <hubuntu> that I had not seen
[00:00] <Flannel> john-vilsack: content should probably be volunteered (or at least asked permission of), even with liberal licensing.
[00:00] <hubuntu> *holly
[00:00] <owh> hubuntu: You objected to moving past this topic, do you still object?
[00:00] <hubuntu> wonderful!
[00:01] <Flannel> john-vilsack: and perhaps just forwarded to on the wiki, in case of updates/changes/etc instead of mirrored
[00:01] <john-vilsack> Flannel: Agreed, but we are no where near ready to begin getting those I think.
[00:01] <hubuntu> keep on
[00:01] <hubuntu> my point is not too rlevant as of yet
[00:01] <Flannel> john-vilsack: No, I agree with that as well.
[00:01] <pep> Flannel: if we count on loco team action to upload it to us... we do not have tha t problem... but SU has to be on foot before that to happen anyway...
[00:01] <owh> Flannel: Or, just include the text from their page.
[00:01] <pep> I think we are all agreeing on this point.
[00:01] <owh> Right, moving on.
[00:01] <owh> [TOPIC] Discuss and possibly revise the team meeting schedule
[00:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss and possibly revise the team meeting schedule
[00:02] <hubuntu> we need the basic structure (SU) first
[00:02] <owh> As I've been up since 2am to prepare, this item is of particular interest to me. However, if I'm not chairing the meeting, being here at 5am to attend is fine - ie. keep the meeting to 21:00 UTC.
[00:02] <pep> +1 hubuntu ;)
[00:02] <owh> We'll also need to discuss frequency.
[00:02] <Flannel> pep: No, SU is auxiliary to this.  We don't need a separate website, and again, we can go in search of content and then inquire about it.
[00:02] <owh> +1 Flannel
[00:02] <hubuntu> Flannel, I do not agree there
[00:03] <pep> Flannel: I'm not sure it has much sense jsut searching for content, if you don't know where to go and what to do with it...
[00:03] <hubuntu> SU is important as of now to see short time result
[00:03] <hubuntu> s
[00:03] <owh> May I observe that we cannot solve all our issues today, we can flag them and deal with them one at a time.
[00:03] <hubuntu> I have collected lots of content in Spanish and have a wiki page for that
[00:03] <pep> of course..
[00:03] <owh> hubuntu: Is there an action point you want to add?
[00:03] <hubuntu> I have announced it to the Spanish LoCo contacts
[00:03] <hubuntu> but its visibility its doubtful
[00:04] <Flannel> pep: I meant the marketing team finds content, asks about collecting, cataloging, promoting, and so forth.  not some search form.
[00:04] <john-vilsack> I think the meeting time today was fine.
[00:04] <hubuntu> SU would make it a one stop shop
[00:04] <hubuntu> and we need to start that ASAP
[00:04] <pep> Flannel: I see, yes...
[00:04] <owh> hubuntu: Yes, initially our wiki will do that while we find our feet.
[00:04] <hubuntu> I for one am willing to dedicate a lot of time on it if necessary
[00:04] <Flannel> hubuntu: There's no reason it can't be on the Wiki, and you can start today with that.
[00:04] <pep> (our team's aim number one on short term basis should be SU, so +1 on hubuntu
[00:04] <hubuntu> Flannel, as I said I have, theres no point on waiting
[00:05] <hubuntu> we should ask for Su right away
[00:05] <pep> me too am willing to involve in this... but after my exams :D
[00:05] <hubuntu> why wait?
[00:05] <pep> we will ahve to structure our ideas around this in a future meeting
[00:05] <Flannel> hubuntu: You can ask and wait yes, and while doing that, can get started with the wiki
[00:05] <owh> +1 Flannel
[00:05] <Flannel> hubuntu: The wiki has no lead time required, SU has an unknown amount.  Don't need to wait
[00:05] <hubuntu> +1 Flannel
[00:05] <owh> hubuntu: We're not saying that you cannot have SU, just that it will take time.
[00:06] <hubuntu> ask for SU and start collecting material right away
[00:06] <pep> wiki for marketeer usage? or for team usage.
[00:06] <pep> ?
[00:06] <owh> Right, can we get back to our topic please?
[00:06] <hubuntu> SU for marketers, wiki for the team
[00:06] <pep> ok
[00:06] <hubuntu> the time is fine
[00:06] <owh> Is that so for all (still) here?
[00:06] <hubuntu> for me...
[00:06] <owh> What about frequency?
[00:07] <John_B> yes
[00:07] <hubuntu> once a month to make a report
[00:07]  * owh suspects initially once a week, then later spread to once a month.
[00:07] <hubuntu> every 2 weeks to check the pulse
[00:07] <John_B> monthly at lEAST
[00:07] <owh> Keep the meetings short to get stuff going before burn out occurs.
[00:07] <hubuntu> so 3 meetings monthly
[00:07] <pep> I would say once a month.. we have the list the rest of the time...
[00:07] <pep> ah ok, short meetings then :)
[00:08] <pep> and maybe a bigger one once a month
[00:08] <pep> ?
[00:08] <owh> pep: Yeah, not mammoth ones like this one.
[00:08] <pep> ^^
[00:08] <john-vilsack> It all depends.  If we move to make a core marketing team, then they would be having meetings more often to report activity levels.  I think monthly marketing meetings would be fine on top of that, especially considering all groups would be showing activity on the wiki as well.
[00:08] <pep> +1! john-vilsack
[00:08] <owh> john-vilsack: Well we don't yet have agreement on your statement, that's the next topic.
[00:08] <Flannel> owh: If you keep information flowing on the ML, you don't need meetings so frequently.  Especially because once a week is a bit difficult for everyone to make all the time, while mailing list is all inclusive
[00:09] <pep> +1 Flannel too
[00:09] <owh> So there are proposals for Weekly, Fortnightly and Monthly.
[00:09] <pep> I'm not sure it will be very efective more than once a month...
[00:09] <hubuntu> true. +1 Flannel..
[00:09] <owh> Proposal: Meet once a month at 21:00 UTC on Saturday.
[00:10] <hubuntu> owh
[00:10] <pep> good.
[00:10] <john-vilsack> agreed!
[00:10] <John_B> yes
[00:10] <hubuntu> I know this time suits us, but maybe we should give next meeting a shot another time
[00:10] <hubuntu> just the next one, so more people can come
[00:10] <owh> I think that would create confusion.
[00:10] <pep> why? maybe make a poll on a wiki or poll-site and propose it to the list...
[00:10] <hubuntu> another hour.. I'm thinking of VidA
[00:11] <owh> If people want to make a point, they could do that by proxy.
[00:11] <hubuntu> ok...
[00:11] <hubuntu> fair enough
[00:11] <John_B> first Sat of every month 2100 UTC
[00:11] <owh> I suspect that until there are objections we should leave it as is for the moment.
[00:11] <pep> so we agree on the time? it is fine for me, but we could vote if really there are people not able to come...
[00:11] <pep> ok, fine, +1 owh
[00:11] <John_B> keep it regular so people can make adjustments
[00:11] <pep> yes
[00:11] <Flannel> pep: polling can be done on Launchpad, by the way.
[00:11] <john-vilsack> In honor of the Olympics in August, we can move the meeting after next to Bejing time ;)
[00:12] <pep> Flannel: ah yes, true :)
[00:12] <owh> Yuk
[00:12] <owh> So, are we agreed on John_B's definition?
[00:12] <john-vilsack> +1 John_B
[00:12] <owh> Who can schedule the room for that and update the wiki?
[00:13] <John_B> you pay my air fare???LOL
[00:13] <hubuntu> just post the summary in the list and ask people at the frdige to help us with that trick
[00:13] <john-vilsack> If you're comfortable continuing to chair them OWH, why not you?
[00:13] <owh> [ACTION] Schedule the ubuntu-meeting room for the first Saturday of the month at 21:00 UTC - hubuntu
[00:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Schedule the ubuntu-meeting room for the first Saturday of the month at 21:00 UTC - hubuntu
[00:13] <hubuntu> I have no idea who fixed this one, but I just did as I just said
[00:13] <owh> john-vilsack: We'll get to that shortly :)
[00:14] <owh> hubuntu: You can do it again :)
[00:14] <owh> Right, next point.
[00:14] <owh> [TOPIC] Team Structure
[00:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure
[00:14] <hubuntu> I'm on vacation in july, but doing it now for the rest of the year should do ;)
[00:14] <pep> critical...
[00:14] <owh> Onto the Team Structure. This item is quite large and I've left it until now because we needed to understand a little about who we are and what we do.
[00:14] <owh> In order to determine the structure, we have several proposals that include a number of roles and titles.
[00:14] <owh> While for some that provides a handy reference, others feel that such things impose too much of a Chiefs and Indians division.
[00:14] <owh> Comments?
[00:15] <hubuntu> egalitarian levels no matter what we do
[00:15] <hubuntu> as in reflecting in the denomination of the people on board the team
[00:15] <pep> yes... but democratically chosen people to frame it all, like owh does here...
[00:15] <owh> My observation is that consensus works better than hierarchy as well.
[00:15] <pep> yes
[00:15] <john-vilsack> In order to have direction, we have to have leadership.  In order to have accountability, we have to have hierarchy.  In order to have balance, we have to have more than one.
[00:15] <Flannel> I propose deferring structure decision until the entire team has a chance to look over the goals/objectives/etc, as that may influence their opinion on adequate structuring.
[00:16] <hubuntu> john-vilsack, most other community teams have a board
[00:16] <hubuntu> countign from 5- up to 8 people (I think)
[00:16] <pep> working on equal basis does not exclude having somebody who can be chairman, etc.... and decisions will be taken by voting...
[00:16] <owh> john-vilsack: Well, yes and no. I am providing leadership by chairing this meeting. I'm accountable because people will notice that I didn't turn up. Hierarchy is not involved.
[00:16] <pep> +1 Flannel
[00:16] <hubuntu> we should go with that I think
[00:16] <Flannel> (although I think 1 month is a long time to deferr initially)
[00:17] <pep> it can be discussed (and will...) on the list I suppose...
[00:17] <hubuntu> and let people vote on posible members of it
[00:17] <john-vilsack> My proposal calls for ten members leading the core-marketing team.  Two would be envoys from other areas, the rest would be volunteers from this group
[00:17] <owh> Well, my next topic was elections and I don't think it would be appropriate to elect anyone today for a number of reasons.
[00:17] <hubuntu> through LP
[00:17] <john-vilsack> owh:  Yes, but it IS a position of responsibility.
[00:17] <owh> john-vilsack: I read that and it concerned me greatly.
[00:18] <hubuntu> agree with owh
[00:18] <john-vilsack> owh: How so?  Its very similar to other projects and not-for profit groups I've worked on.  I'm interested to hear thoughts.
[00:18] <owh> You have to realise that this is a voluntary effort. I got up at 2am to prepare for this meeting. I did it not because anyone told me to, but because I decided to be there.
[00:18] <dsas> I think the team likely needs a short while to see what sticks and mature a little before forming councils and things.
[00:18] <pep> john-vilsack's proposal is good... but might lead to dissapointement and rivality amongst team members... but i join him in thinking that it is necessary...
[00:18] <pep> but it needs time yes!! definitely
[00:18] <Flannel> dsas +1
[00:18] <hubuntu>  dsas +1
[00:18] <pep> +1
[00:19] <owh> dsas: I agree with you also.
[00:19] <hubuntu> it will hapen by itself and leading figures will emerge by naturally
[00:19] <owh> So, let me see if I can come up with something that works here.
[00:19] <john-vilsack> dsas: How can you make things stick if there is no delineated area of responsibility?
[00:19] <dsas> hubuntu: I was about to say that that might happen of its own accord.
[00:19] <pep> owh: the volunteer decision does not dissapear with a strcturing, framing group of people who make sure things don't go out of hand and goal..
[00:19] <dsas> john-vilsack: People will assume responsibility for things they care about.
[00:19] <owh> dsas: +1
[00:20] <owh> I understand that there is a perceived need to have "a board" of some sort. I've just found that it isn't necessary to get stuff done.
[00:20] <hubuntu> john-vilsack, think of the CoC
[00:20] <hubuntu> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
[00:20] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
[00:20] <Flannel> john-vilsack: I think the operative term was "short while"
[00:20] <hubuntu> we are really serious about what we do
[00:20] <dsas> The ubuntu-documentation group has no elected leader, no council.
[00:21] <john-vilsack> As a volunteer effort, you have to be aware that people who do not wish responsibility will do things voluntary.  There are those that would be willing to step up and have themselves held accountable for their responsibilities amongst their peers.  It would be these people who sacrifice the freedom to just walk away in an effort to champion the areas that they are responsible for.
[00:21] <owh> And it works really well.
[00:21] <owh> john-vilsack: Sure, but they don't need to be elected for that to happen
[00:21] <pep> no
[00:21] <dsas> what it does have is people who have been working long and hard and have just assumed it in specific areas.
[00:21] <pep> +1 owh
[00:22] <hubuntu> and remeber that even though Mark is sabdfl, we are all here voluntary working on a project he started, but has become ours
[00:22] <Flannel> again, I propose we take this topic to the mailing lists until the next meeting, as our previous decisions today can affect the opinions of those who aren't here, and those who are here as well, once time has passed for it to sink and people to get aquainted.
[00:22] <dsas> (because everyone else assumes t of them)
[00:22] <pep> but if there is no election whatsoever, there is a risk of branches of the team going in diferent directions...
[00:22] <hubuntu> sabdfl as in self appointed benevolent dictator for life
[00:22] <john-vilsack> owh: Documentation has finite boundaries.  What we've discussed here is developing a new, front facing website dedicated to spreading the word of Ubuntu, aggregating existing documentation, forming the basis of relationships between Canonical and through us the LoCos....its a big workload.
[00:22] <pep> +1 Flannel
[00:22] <owh> pep: There is nothing wrong with that.
[00:22] <owh> +1 Flannel
[00:22] <owh> Right, is that done then?
[00:22] <john-vilsack> Not yet.
[00:23] <owh> Sure, what have you got for us?
[00:23] <john-vilsack> Personally, I think we should move to review the different plans and vote to adopt one.  Without it, I feel we are listlessly moving forward no matter how much we think we are accomplishing.
[00:23] <john-vilsack> That can be on the mailing list, but it should be on some agenda somewhere.
[00:23] <owh> john-vilsack: Uhm, I strongly disagree with your assessment.
[00:23] <john-vilsack> even if one of those plans is "the plan to adopt no plan"
[00:24] <Flannel> john-vilsack: We've deferred it until the next meeting, as far as I'm aware (or at least, if my proposal is accepted)
[00:24] <pep> I think it is premature to adopt a plan today.
[00:24] <owh> john-vilsack: This meeting has created a specific list of goals and objectives, agreed to by the people who turned up.
[00:24] <hubuntu> the plan to wait and see what plan comes up and gets endorsement by the group as a whole
[00:25] <hubuntu> +1 Flannel
[00:25] <pep> again, +1 ....
[00:25] <owh> Flannel: You're just talking about the structure right, not goals and objectives.
[00:25] <john-vilsack> So we have a plan to come up with a plan? Or a plan to look at a plan to discuss planning of the plan?
[00:25] <pep> yes
[00:25] <pep> plan to come up with a plan
[00:25] <hubuntu> something like that john-vilsack, yes
[00:26] <Flannel> owh: I'm saying that the goals/objectives we already decided on will shape some peoples ideas of what sort of structure we ought to have.  So yes, the stuff we've decided, has been decided.
[00:26]  * owh is unsure of what is being said here.
[00:26] <hubuntu> I'm not sure which one though...
[00:26] <owh> Flannel: Right, but does john-vilsack understand that to be the case?
[00:26] <pep> is being said: we have said a lot, too much to decide which structure to take on today...
[00:26] <Flannel> owh: Basically, the "how do we want to organize this puppy" is being discussed further, and we'll pick it up (and hopefully decide) next meeting.
[00:26] <owh> I agree
[00:27] <pep> yes
[00:27] <owh> So, let me phrase this then.
[00:27] <john-vilsack> Since we plan on not planning to plan our plan today, I propose that we call for requests from the mailing list to have plans submitted over the course of the next month to be voted on by this group as a whole at the next meeting.
[00:27] <Flannel> john-vilsack: We're discussing on mailing lists for 1 month (until next meeting), at next meeting, it's "already" on the agenda, to decide
[00:27] <hubuntu> john-vilsack, that is just what Flannel proposed
[00:27] <owh> Proposal: Further discussion to the appropriate structure of this team is to be had on the list and to be discussed and decided upon in the next meeting.
[00:28] <pep> +1
[00:28] <hubuntu> lag...
[00:28] <owh> I'm not yet sure that we're talking about the same thing.
[00:28] <john-vilsack> Ok, but just to be clear, hasn't the past month been a discussion of that plan already?  I thought my plan aggregated what I read to an extent.
[00:28] <hubuntu> could maybe add a poll on LP for that to get votes by poeople not making it to the next meeting?
[00:28] <John_B> that's too long of a time frame. we should have the structure in place by next meeting
[00:28] <dsas> The ubuntu community generally works by consensus rather than straight up democracy.
[00:29] <hubuntu> which would be like get a list one week before the meting so we can think and vote
[00:29] <owh> I'm concerned that john-vilsack is talking about more than just the structure of the group.
[00:29] <hubuntu> as we did with the agenda today
[00:29] <Flannel> john-vilsack: We had no well defined goals in that month, now we know what the marketing team is all about.
[00:29] <pep> John_B: I disagree... I join Flannel in thinknig that what has been said should be presented to the rest of the team
[00:30] <pep> and more generally... why are we only like 8 people?
[00:30] <owh> John_B: Decisions are made by those who show up. You were here, you participated.
[00:30] <pep> shouldn't we be more to discuss this important decision? that is why i preconise not deciding today...
[00:30] <Flannel> John_B: I agree that 1 month is a long time, and two weeks would probably be adequate, but we have a meeting in one month, so that makes a convienent place.
[00:30] <owh> pep: Well, the rest had different priorities, there is nothing wrong with that.
[00:30] <hubuntu> a lot of people is watching I believe pep
[00:30] <john-vilsack> owh: The point in contention in my plan that I am concerned with is the development of the core-markters group.
[00:30] <pep> fine.
[00:31] <hubuntu> we need not be more than 8 at this stage anyway... people will adhere to our activities if not formally to the team anyway
[00:31] <Flannel> hubuntu: Generally (the way its handled in other teams) ispeople who can't make the meeting can just indicate their votes ahead of time, and they'll be echoed at the meeting (of course, then they don't get to hear what is discussed at meetings, but it cant be perfct)
[00:31] <John_B> maybe because only 8 people cared enough about the team to make the effort
[00:31] <owh> john-vilsack: Yes, and we're saying that this is a contentious issue that cannot be resolved simply by your proposal.
[00:31] <hubuntu> yes, but the votes on what. and that what must be defined in advance
[00:31] <pep> John_B: I only partially agree..
[00:31] <Flannel> John_B: Or because its odd timing for some people.  Not everyone is in the western hemisphere.
[00:31] <owh> John_B: Well, that's a little harsh. There is a log, there are 121 people in the room, more than 8 people will see our discussion.
[00:32] <pep> dine, so as I see this, we are *not* going to take a decision today about team structure... right?
[00:32] <pep> fine*
[00:32] <owh> +1 pep
[00:32] <john-vilsack> So then let's make it an agenda item for the next meeting:  Vote on and choose a proposed structure for the core-marketing team (if any).
[00:32] <Flannel> hubuntu: Well, the MeetingAgenda should have the different proposals well ahead of time
[00:32] <hubuntu> right pep
[00:32] <pep> it must ne yes, john-vilsack
[00:32] <pep> be*
[00:33] <owh> john-vilsack: We'll get to that in a moment, but yet.
[00:33] <hubuntu> then I agree with Flannel
[00:33] <hubuntu> :)
[00:33] <owh> s/yet/yes/
[00:33] <Flannel> john-vilsack: The "deciding on structure" is already nthe agenda.  Whether that includes a "core marketing team" is eyt to be decided.
[00:33] <pep> (sorry it's 1.33am ^^)
[00:33] <owh> Right, Flannel, can you please state your proposal one last time?
[00:34] <Flannel> I propose we deferr this topic (that of structure and governance) to the mailing lists until the next meeting.
[00:34] <owh> Objections?
[00:34] <Flannel> or sorry.
[00:34] <pep> no
[00:34] <Flannel> I propose that we deferr discussion to the mailing lists, and deferr the topic itself to the next meeting.
[00:35] <owh> +1
[00:35] <pep> correct :)
[00:35] <Flannel> darn those extra 'r's
[00:35] <hubuntu> +1
[00:35] <owh> Flannel: Can you send a message regarding that to the list?
[00:35] <john-vilsack> I disagree.
[00:35] <john-vilsack> I think we need to have something more actionable in place for the next meeting.
[00:35] <Flannel> owh: Someone is already writing a summary of this meeting to the list, correct?
[00:35] <pep> that is why the discussion is being deferred to the list directly
[00:35] <hubuntu> and we do, because the agenda will summarize the discussed points in the list
[00:36] <hubuntu> right?
[00:36] <john-vilsack> By that language, we are deferring only the discussion of the plan to create the structure, not the plan to vote on the structure proposals in the first place.
[00:36] <owh> Flannel: Well, yes, there was a scribe, but they seemed to have vanished, so I'll be taking volunteers shortly.
[00:36] <Flannel> john-vilsack: the voting will take place at the meeting.
[00:37] <hubuntu> the scribe can still do the job with a log file
[00:37] <pep> well, then set an ultimatum.... deferring discussion and concrete proposals on the agenda for next meeting...
[00:37] <owh> Proposal: I propose that we defer discussion to the mailing lists, and defer the topic and vote itself to the next meeting.
[00:37] <pep> decision wil be taken
[00:37] <hubuntu> +1 owh
[00:37] <Flannel> john-vilsack: instead of "discuss here, vote now", discuss on ML, vote at next meeting.
[00:37] <john-vilsack> +1 owh
[00:37] <pep> +1
[00:37] <Flannel> +1
[00:37] <John_B> 0
[00:37] <owh> Flannel: Happy with that?
[00:37] <owh> John_B: Comments?
[00:38] <pep> slow writer? :)
[00:39] <owh> While John_B is formulating his thoughts, Flannel, can I ask you to write that separately to the list?
[00:39] <hubuntu> sleeping
[00:39] <hubuntu> ;)
[00:39] <Flannel> owh: No problem
[00:40] <owh> [ACTION] Flannel to send message to the list to announce that we will defer discussion to the mailing lists, and defer the topic and vote itself to the next meeting
[00:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Flannel to send message to the list to announce that we will defer discussion to the mailing lists, and defer the topic and vote itself to the next meeting
[00:40] <owh> Right, John_B were you going to comment?
[00:40] <pep> I think he is afk...
[00:40] <owh> Ok, we'll move on.
[00:41] <owh> So, that concludes the agenda. Are there any other items remaining for discussion?
[00:41] <owh> Excellent :)
[00:41] <hubuntu> anyone has an idea on how to ask for Spread Ubuntu?
[00:41] <pep> ask?
[00:41] <hubuntu> Launchpad with Canonical SYsadmins or what?
[00:42] <pep> what for?
[00:42] <pep> what do you want them to give you?
[00:42] <hubuntu> start collecting material AND ask for SU
[00:42] <hubuntu> was the agreement if I'm not wrong
[00:42] <owh> hubuntu: Initially I would contact elmo.
[00:42] <hubuntu> elmo, ok
[00:42] <owh> hubuntu: Do you want me to make you an action point for that?
[00:42] <pep> well SU should be developed, thought and discussed of, and created, before redirecting the URL anyway...
[00:43] <john-vilsack> We would probably want to have some proof of concept online for them to see, or at least ask for how we can repoint it once we have something.
[00:43] <owh> Personally, I think we should focus on getting our wiki content in order first.
[00:43] <pep> yes... we should start a ML thread and set a team up around SU ...
[00:43] <owh> Ok, any final comments before I close the meeting?
[00:44] <pep> we can do both.. setting up a team for SU does not exclude the wiki work and progress...
[00:44] <John_B> no
[00:44] <pep> no other comments...
[00:44] <john-vilsack> No, thanks for taking care of it owh.  I'm just happy to be here and be a part of this!
[00:44] <hubuntu> sorry
[00:44] <hubuntu> compiz killed me'
[00:44] <owh> hubuntu: Do you want me to make you an action point to investigate SU?
[00:44] <pep> hubuntu: <pep> yes... we should start a ML thread and set a team up around SU ... <owh> Personally, I think we should focus on getting our wiki content in order first. <pep> we can do both.. setting up a team for SU does not exclude the wiki work and progress...
[00:45] <pep> hubuntu: <john-vilsack> We would probably want to have some proof of concept online for them to see, or at least ask for how we can repoint it once we have something.
[00:45] <hubuntu> I believe pep and I will do it and report to the list,m right pep?
[00:45] <pep> that's about it :)
[00:45] <owh> [ACTION] hubuntu and pep to investigate spreadubuntu.com and report to the list.
[00:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  hubuntu and pep to investigate spreadubuntu.com and report to the list.
[00:46]  * hubuntu gives high five to pep!
[00:46] <owh> Thank you all for your attendance and again for your hard work. There is more to come.
[00:46] <pep> yes, fine... I am in exams very actively until the 23rd though, I took tonight off and should go to sleep, it is already almost 2am^^ so I'll be active from then on mostly...
[00:46] <hubuntu> hei owh thanks for your wonderful work and commitment
[00:46]  * pep gives high five back!
[00:46] <pep> and thanks owh...
[00:46] <owh> #endmeeting
[00:46] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:48.
[00:46] <hubuntu> really.. 2 am that's just remarkably good
[00:46] <pep> good work
[00:46] <john-vilsack> Thanks all.  Take care and I'll see you on the ML
[00:47] <owh> Can someone please mail me their log, so I can reconstruct the netsplit part?
[00:47] <owh> s/someone/a few of you/
[00:47] <hubuntu> I am going to take a look at the SU stuff right now
[00:47] <hubuntu> my log got truncated by compiz...
[00:47] <hubuntu> sorry :(
[00:47] <pep> owh: my log is small actually :/
[00:47] <pep> I'll check
[00:48] <hubuntu> the bot must have it
[00:48] <hubuntu> some bot at least
[00:48] <pep> I'm afraid I have lost it
[00:48] <owh> hubuntu: Well there was a time when the bot wasn't in the room
[00:48] <hubuntu> there are several bots here
[00:48] <hubuntu> :)
[00:48] <Flannel> owh: Whats your email?
[00:48] <owh><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:49] <owh> Flannel: Tah.
[00:49] <owh> Thanks all, later...
[00:49] <hubuntu> peace
[00:49] <pep> see you
[00:49] <pep> I'm off also.. get some sleep...
[00:50] <hubuntu> how long have we been here?
[00:50] <pep> bye hubuntu, we'll keep in touch
[00:50] <hubuntu> almost 3 hours...
[00:50] <hubuntu> yes pep, your email?
[00:50] <pep><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:50] <hubuntu> or name on the ML?
[00:50] <pep> I am often on IRC
[00:50] <pep> Pierre Vorhagen, I never wrote to the u-marketing ML to tell the truth :)
[00:51] <hubuntu> I'll see yupou around in this channel then
[00:51] <pep> I never found a topic very interesting, a lot of blah...
[00:51] <hubuntu> what can I say... I like blah
[00:51] <pep> hubuntu: I am in #ubuntu-marketing
[00:51] <hubuntu> pep: so am I
[00:51] <pep> see you later guys, bb
[00:52] <hubuntu> bb
[00:52] <hubuntu> ok people, thanks for showing up
[00:52] <hubuntu> get some rest
[00:52] <Flannel> .
[00:52] <hubuntu> bye


[11:51] <ubotu> New bug: #125217 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (main) "beryl freezes when 24bit depth used" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/125217
[12:08] <ubotu> New bug: #124761 in xorg (main) "[gutsy alternate tribe2 cd]  Although a 16 Bit resolution is chosen in installer menu, xorg tries to use 24 Bit" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/124761
[12:46] <bryce_> heya tepsipakki, I'm guessing you're still tied up with school and such, but I'd like to chat with you some time about the xorg 7.3 work.  I've been looking at updating the xorg and libx11 packages, so would like to get your thoughts there.
[12:47] <bryce_> tepsipakki, also, I wanted to check on your own plans, since I worry I must be stepping on toes here, and would like to coordinate with you better
[12:52] <tepsipakki> bryce_: hey.. yeah, I'll continue my vacation tomorrow, so it's been quite busy at work for the past week, trying to make sure our feisty-installations work well :)
[12:53] <tepsipakki> besides, I think you don't have to worry about other peoples' toes :)
[12:54] <tepsipakki> but libx11.. on feisty it doesn't use the xcb-stuff at all, because of the problems we hit back then
[12:54] <bryce_> ah yes
[12:54] <tepsipakki> but most of them should be sorted by now
[12:54] <bryce_> ok; I've gone through the libx11 update mostly, and just need to go through patches
[12:55] <bryce_> so any advice on patches would be appreciated
[12:55] <tepsipakki> I think java is the one that breaks without any patches, rest should be fine by now
[12:55] <bryce_> I saw at least one is upstream (the security patch)
[12:56] <tepsipakki> hmm, jcristau is not here now
[12:56] <bryce_> I see he's been busy with lots of new packages, so most of the new things on my todo list
[12:56] <bryce_> I can just pull from debian :-)
[12:57] <tepsipakki> java apps crashed having an assertion failure, so libx11 was patched because of that (and then later changed not to use xcb at all)
[12:57] <tepsipakki> yeah
[12:58] <tepsipakki> he should know better where debian is with libx11/xcb/java
[12:59] <tepsipakki> the problem is a static library inside java, and the current package in debian should have a script which patches java to not use it or something
[12:59] <tepsipakki> but that can't be done for the user in the package
[12:59] <bryce_> ah
[01:00] <tepsipakki> the current xorg-server in debian has a patch which should fix the vesa-crashes on r5xx hardware
[01:01] <tepsipakki> that and dropping the patch I added for vesa
[01:01] <bryce_> I hear 1.3.99 is coming soon
[01:02] <tepsipakki> which is from fedora (mode-heuristics or something), but it quite doesn't work right. without it should be fine for most
[01:02] <tepsipakki> yes, that's way cool
[01:02] <bryce_> excellent, I'll take a peek at that r5xx patch; I know there's quite a few bug reports on that
[01:02] <tepsipakki> damn, missed lunchtime (crappy selection here during summer.. every place closes at 14)
[01:02] <bryce_> oops
[01:03] <tepsipakki> well, there are two grocer's nearby.. I'll manage :)
[01:04] <bryce_> btw, I started a thread on ubuntuforums.org for xorg testing
[01:04] <bryce_> it attracted some attention, but I think more recruitment is needed
[01:04] <tepsipakki> also, I'm waiting for the x11-xsession-utils to pass NEW, then the x11-* packages are uploaded to unstable, and perhaps in ubuntu too (replacing all the individually package apps)
[01:04] <tepsipakki> yes I noticed
[01:05] <tepsipakki> I haven't used the forums much
[01:05] <tepsipakki> ..at all, to be precise :)
[01:06] <bryce_> yeah I'm not really a forums person myself
[01:06] <bryce_> however it appeared that that's where the audience was, so figured I'd give it a shot
[01:07] <bryce_> do you know if there is already a ubuntu-x mailing list somewhere?
[01:07] <tepsipakki> the "r5xx" patch for the server is the 41_vbe_filter_less.diff, which makes the server not to drop modes too early before they have a chance being validated
[01:07] <tepsipakki> no mailing list, maybe it would be useful
[01:08] <bryce_> I'll plan on looking into setting one up
[01:08] <tepsipakki> nice
[01:10] <bryce_> I'm also planning on learning how to use the new PPA system for posting proposed .debs for folks to test
[01:12] <tepsipakki> PPA? I've missed that one
[01:13] <bryce_> "personal package archives" - it's in beta.  It seems to be like posting debs to your people.ubuntu.com/~name/ space, but more formalized.  It's in beta, but I've had several people suggest using it
[01:13] <tepsipakki> oh, cool
[01:17] <tepsipakki> about my plans; I'll continue pushing the changes (especially in xorg-the-package) to debian, and hopefully starting bugwork again in August..
[01:18] <tepsipakki> but the next three weeks I'll be offline ;)
[01:18] <tepsipakki> err, two actually
[01:42] <bryce_> heya jcristau
[01:42] <bryce_> tepsipakki, sounds good
[01:44] <bryce_> tepsipakki, this is fine; my plans for coming weeks are to get bulletproof-x implemented and integrated into xorg, and continue getting packages updated
[01:45] <bryce_> I probably won't get much bug work done, but by August when things are frozen I'll definitely be joining you in bug hunting :-)
[02:01] <jcristau> hi bryce_
[02:02] <tepsipakki> jcristau: what's the situation with libx11/xcb for unstable atm?
[02:02] <tepsipakki> and hi :)
[02:03] <jcristau> hi tepsipakki
[02:03] <jcristau> tepsipakki: it needs a fix for https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11390
[02:03] <ubotu> Freedesktop bug 11390 in Lib/Xlib "Locking hooks not called from software built against non-XCB Xlib without XTHREADS" [Blocker,New]
[02:03] <jcristau> which is what's breaking java
[02:04] <tepsipakki> oh, the ball is on xlib's court again :)
[02:06] <jcristau> it took a long time to get the sun people to react, but once they did the issue was found pretty quickly
[02:07] <tepsipakki> looks like it, yeah
[02:10] <jcristau> the less nice part is that the bug doesn't have a trivial fix, as xlib/xcb assumes that the locking hooks are called
[02:12] <tepsipakki> that's too bad
[02:18] <jcristau> yeah, pretty annoying
[02:19] <bryce_> what/who would it take to get this fixed?
[02:19] <tepsipakki> it's already assigned, so I believe it's being worked on
[02:20] <tepsipakki> since it's a showstopper
[02:21] <bryce_> ok cool.
[02:22] <bryce_> interesting, I didn't realize bart massey was involved in this...  I run into him a lot since we're both in Portland
[02:23] <jcristau> last time i asked josh about this bug, he said this:
[02:23] <jcristau> 20:22:38 < jcristau> JoshTriplett: is there any progress on https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11390 ?
[02:23] <ubotu> Freedesktop bug 11390 in Lib/Xlib "Locking hooks not called from software built against non-XCB Xlib without XTHREADS" [Blocker,New]
[02:23] <jcristau> 20:23:22 < JoshTriplett> jcristau: Some.  The dent in the nearest wall has become deeper, and my head has become flatter. :)
[02:24] <jcristau> also, jamey got married recently, which didn't help get this fixed ;)
[02:25] <bryce_> is this the correct git?  http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xcb/wiki.git/  If so, looks like the code hasn't been touched in a while
[02:27] <jcristau> it'd probably be in libX11, but yeah, there's nothing new in the repo
[02:27] <bryce_> hmm, looks the same here - http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xcb.git;a=summary
[02:28] <jcristau> the libxcb repo is http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xcb/libxcb/ not /wiki
[02:28] <jcristau> but xlib/xcb lives in http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libX11/
[02:29] <bryce_> looks like Jamey Sharp has done some XCB related work recently as well
[02:29] <bryce_> although like you said, nothing within the past month
[02:31] <jcristau> someone needs to find how to fix the bug before pushing code out :)
[02:35] <jcristau> there's also http://bugs.debian.org/429147 which has been reported recently. i've forwarded the patch to the xcb guys, so we'll see
[02:36] <bryce_> ok cool, guess I'll just stay tuned
[03:10] <ubotu> New bug: #122762 in xserver-xorg-video-via (main) "Please provide a 3D driver for Unichrome PRO IGP using "restricted drivers"" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/122762
[05:16] <ubotu> New bug: #125269 in xorg-server "[PATCH]  Fix Xorg rendering when using a Composite Manager" [Undecided,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/125269


[02:51] <kubotu> ::workspace-bugs:: [1031165] plasma-widget-kimpanel-backend-ibus missing @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1031165 (by Scott Kitterman)
[02:53] <kubotu> ::qt-bugs:: [1031167] installation of libqt4-gui fails with unmet dependencies @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1031167 (by Stephan Fabel)
[07:23] <vHanda> ScottK: you don't need need a new Soprano for 4.8.5
[07:23] <vHanda> I specially put some patches in 4.8.5 which make it work with old Soprano
[07:24] <vHanda> anyway, KDE 4.9 should be out tomorrow :D
[08:15] <Riddell> vHanda: that's not what the cmake tests say
[08:16] <Riddell> 4.8.5 is a different use case than 4.9 (stable release update vs latest release, different users prefer one over the other)
[08:51] <shadeslayer> hah
[08:51] <shadeslayer> Alot of the documentation on ISO builds is on a sekrit google doc
[08:52] <shadeslayer> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RPPF14h1Sw2gQjGTuZjUIlNHnGrafS8ekhFjJM9MT00/edit?pli=1#
[08:52] <shadeslayer> question, why does ship-live not depend on ship and only depends on live? does live automagically pull in ship?
[08:53] <shadeslayer> here : http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/kubuntu.quantal/view/head:/STRUCTURE
[08:53] <shadeslayer> ( or does the include at the top do this )
[08:54] <debfx> ship is the alternate image
[08:54] <Riddell> yep
[08:54] <shadeslayer> oh ... ok
[08:55] <shadeslayer> I think I get the whole picture now :P
[08:56] <shadeslayer> ( albeit it's quite confusing when you first start looking at it )
[08:56] <Riddell> who made that google doc?
[08:58] <shadeslayer> no idea
[08:58] <shadeslayer> I just found it after alot of googling
[08:59] <shadeslayer> Riddell: Quintasan: do you use a sdcard to boot stuff on your dev boards? IO performance is absolute shit for my sdcard
[09:00] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes I do and current versions of ubuntu are "pre-installed" images from those cards but they've changed to more normal install images for 12.10
[09:00] <Riddell> so you install them on a usb drive
[09:00] <Riddell> for perforance reasons
[09:00] <shadeslayer> quite rightly so
[09:00] <shadeslayer> most of the bottleneck on the RasPi is IO ( and not memory or CPU power )
[09:00] <Riddell> well it means I have to keep swapping the keyboard and mouse since I only have two usb sockets on the pandaboard
[09:01] <shadeslayer> get a usb hub? :P
[09:01] <Riddell> that would be a sensible answer
[09:01]  * shadeslayer will try and install the rootfs on his external hdd later in the evening today
[09:02] <Riddell> I'm surprised usb is faster than SD though
[09:02] <Riddell> I guess the advantage of SD is just simplicity of controller
[09:02] <shadeslayer> yeah, then again, I guess it depends on whats the class of the SD card
[09:02] <shadeslayer> Farnell probably gave me a class 4 sd card >.>
[09:05] <shadeslayer> yep, Class 4
[09:07] <Riddell> shadeslayer: your electricity was on the news last night, all solved?
[09:07] <shadeslayer> hah, nope
[09:08] <shadeslayer> I barely have enough electricity, just manage to keep my router up
[09:08] <shadeslayer> thank god it's raining, would be ETOOHOT to work otherwise
[09:09] <shadeslayer> so I just shut down everything else, and try and keep the router running 24x7
[09:10] <Riddell> ..but your computer is up
[09:12] <shadeslayer> well yeah, the power comes on intermittently, and usually there's power from 3AM in the morning to 8 AM
[09:12] <Riddell> vHanda: aww thing.h got removed, that was my favourite header!
[09:13] <shadeslayer> just enough to keep my laptop running :)
[09:13] <shadeslayer> no power for the past 4 hours though :P
[09:13] <Riddell> erk
[09:14] <shadeslayer> and at times plasma goes mental and says that I have 0% battery
[09:14] <Riddell> the battery applet seems a bit buggy in 4.9
[09:15] <Riddell> it doesn't update often
[09:15] <shadeslayer> well .. they say it was fixed, works in neon, lets see what happens in the release packages
[09:15] <Riddell> and just now it seems to be in with the Hide Icons section for me
[09:15] <shadeslayer> Riddell: AC adapter plugged in?
[09:16] <shadeslayer> it tries to be smart and hides itself when you've plugged in the adapter
[09:16] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes
[09:16] <shadeslayer> ( which makes sense imho )
[09:16] <Riddell> hum that's just confusing
[09:16] <shadeslayer> Riddell: unplug and it'll appear magically
[09:16] <Riddell> right enough
[10:59] <apachelogger> Riddell: it only appears when there is something that might require your attention
[10:59] <apachelogger> now since being plugged in is the best state it does not require your attention
[10:59] <apachelogger> not being plugged in or for example not being able to access a battery state would though
[11:13] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: Yeah I use SD card
[11:15] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: also, I have started uploading ktp 0.4.1 to quantal and backporting to precise
[11:25] <Riddell> Quintasan: great thanks
[11:26] <Quintasan> Riddell: Well it's just internal and accounts-kcm
[11:26] <Quintasan> My internet died for some reason
[12:16] <jtechidna> shadeslayer: so I hear half of India is without electricity?
[12:17] <Riddell> jtechidna: careful, your highlight will use up his battery!
[12:17] <jtechidna> !
[12:17] <jtechidna> anyway, good luck w/ that whole situation
[12:18] <Quintasan> lol
[12:19] <kubotu> ::qt-bugs:: [1031167] installation of libqt4-gui fails with unmet dependencies @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1031167 (by Stephan Fabel)
[13:10] <shadeslayer> jtechidna: more or less
[13:10] <shadeslayer> The electricity just came back, a 6 hour powercut I think
[13:10]  * shadeslayer is catching up on what happened as well since he couldn't watch the news
[13:11] <shadeslayer> Riddell: oh btw, "<Riddell> ..but your computer is up" , we have power backup systems in every house, mine usually lasts about 2-3 hours
[13:26] <shadeslayer> "BJP spokesperson Prakash Javadekar said this is total failure of the UPA government in the power sector, which is manifested in the total blackout of the two days and the grid failure." << Typical Indian politicians blaming each other :P
[13:28] <jtechidna> s/Indian politicians/politicians
[13:28] <jtechidna> :P
[13:34] <ScottK> vHanda: 4.8.5 has set"(SOPRANO_MIN_VERSION "2.7.56")" and we have 2.7.5.  That's a problem.
[13:42] <shadeslayer> gtg
[13:42] <shadeslayer> more power outage
[13:42] <shadeslayer> byeee
[13:53] <dantti> my locales got screwed in 12.04 for some reason LANG=pt_BR (no UTF8 here), locale gen prints those missing messages, I recall dpkg-reconfigure locale but ubuntu doesn't have, google inst't helping any tips?
[13:58] <Quintasan> jtechidna: How do I insert newline in sed?
[14:00] <jtechidna> uh
[14:00] <jtechidna> \n?
[14:00] <Quintasan> bzzzz
[14:00] <Quintasan> doesn't work
[14:01] <jtechidna> I found this magic on stackoverflow to replace the newlines in a file with a space: sed ':a;N;$!ba;s/\n/ /g'
[14:02] <jtechidna> you could also do: tr '\n' ' ' < input
[14:02] <Quintasan> I want to change
[14:02] <Quintasan> Maintainer: Debian KDE Extras Team<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[14:03] <Quintasan> Maintainer: Kubuntu Developers<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[14:03] <Quintasan> XSBC-Original-Maintainer: Debian KDE Extras Team<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[14:03] <Quintasan> into that
[14:03] <Quintasan> WHY THE HELL IS SHIFT BACKSPACE BOUND TO RESTART X
[14:04] <jtechidna> you could run update-maintainer, and then modify the maintainer line to be Kubuntu Developers
[14:07] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: ^ - we are dumb
[14:09] <Quintasan> meh that's hardly a solution
[14:09] <Quintasan> still requires sed magic
[14:11] <jtechidna> you could fork update-maintainer :P
[14:11] <yofel> what sed command did you run where \n didn't work?
[14:11] <debfx> yes, and please put the result into kubuntu-dev-tools
[14:16] <Quintasan> yo
[14:16] <Quintasan> yofel:
[14:16] <Quintasan> sed s/Maintainer\:\ Debian\ KDE\ Extras\ Team\ \<pkg\-kde\-extras\@lists\.alioth\.debian\.org\>/Maintainer\:\ Kubuntu\ Developers\ \<kubuntu\-devel\@lists\.ubuntu\.com\>\nXSBC\-Original\-Maintainer\:\ Debian\ KDE\ Extras\ Team\<EMAIL_ADDRESS>control
[14:16] <Quintasan> sup
[14:17] <Quintasan> NVM
[14:17] <Quintasan> I'M SO DUMB
[14:17] <Quintasan> \\n worked
[14:17] <yofel> uh... quotes would probably have worked too...
[14:17] <Quintasan> Best one-liner ever
[14:18] <Quintasan> shadeslayer is going to love this
[14:43] <Riddell> dantti: whyever don't you use utf-8?  I don't think we support non-utf-8 locales
[14:44] <dantti> Riddell: no the problem I want to use UTF-8, but I can't find where this thing is (not) comming from
[14:44] <dantti> Riddell: my other machine got the same problem after the update
[14:45] <Riddell> dantti: tried running language-selector-kde ?
[14:46] <dantti> no, will that help console logins? I even created a new user but it also suffers from the same issue, I greped all my /etc but I can't find what's wrong..
[14:49] <Riddell> dantti: it will set the system local eyes
[14:49] <Riddell> yes
[14:51] <dantti> Riddell: it still didn't work :/
[14:51] <dantti> I change to english it still just says LANG="pt_BR"
[14:52] <dantti> quite odd
[14:52] <vHanda> Riddell: how do I get a backtrace out from this - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-runtime/+bug/980110 ?
[14:55] <yofel> vHanda: the backtrace is the same as on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-runtime/+bug/913024
[14:55] <vHanda> no they are totally different components, and that back trace doesn't have debugging symbols
[14:55] <vHanda> oh well
[14:56] <yofel> true, the retracer messed up then :(
[15:01] <Quintasan> yofel: http://wklej.org/id/801247
[15:01] <Quintasan> Any ideas what's going on?
[15:02] <Quintasan> yofel: nvm
[15:02] <Quintasan> once again I'm being dumb
[15:03] <dantti> Riddell: btw do you know who should I poke about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1003090 ?
[15:09] <Riddell> dantti: the kernel team I think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/
[15:10] <dantti> k, it's been a while with no activity...
[15:17] <apol> while working in muon I've found some syntactic errors in some app-install/desktop/*desktop files
[15:17] <apol> do you think we can fix those?
[15:17] <apol> http://paste.opensuse.org/60421562 << example
[15:18] <Riddell> apol: what's the error?
[15:18] <apol> Riddell: Categories has : instead of =
[15:20] <Riddell> apol: those files come from the pakcages
[15:20] <Riddell> so it's probably an error in the package
[15:20] <apol> i know :)
[15:21] <Quintasan> Riddell: Welp, took some time but with base of shadeslayer's script we have some sort of automatization for ktp
[15:21] <Riddell> apol: yes it is, so patches to the packages and bugs to debian or ubuntu or upstream as approprirate welcome
[15:21] <Riddell> Quintasan: oh cool
[15:21] <apol> Riddell: well, where do I report it?
[15:22] <Riddell> apol: depends on the package, spout has a .desktop file added by the debian packager so report to debian bugs
[15:22] <Riddell> and give a patch to me or anyone in ubuntu if you want it fixed here quickly
[15:22] <Riddell> s/patch/debdiff/
[15:22] <kubotu> Riddell meant: "and give a debdiff to me or anyone in ubuntu if you want it fixed here quickly"
[15:23] <apol> well, that's probably the reason why it's broken :S
[16:03] <jjesse> hrmm it looks like somehow my membership in kubuntu members and ubuntu members has slipped
[16:03] <jjesse> should i have had a notification (email) about this?
[16:04] <jjesse> cause i don't have one in gmail :(
[16:04] <jjesse> how do i get reactivated?
[16:18] <Riddell> jjesse: yes you'd have got an e-mail a week before it changed and on the day i think
[16:42] <jjesse> Riddell, i did a search through GMAIL and nothing showed up
[16:44] <jjesse> the only email i have w/ member in it is that my cloak has been deactivated
[16:53] <jjesse> do i need to reapply at th next meeting?
[17:09] <Riddell> jjesse: no I shouldn't think so, I'll just check with others
[17:10] <jjesse> Riddell, ok, i would be more than willing to go through it again
[17:10] <mgraesslin> hi all
[17:10] <mgraesslin> I have a little Kubuntu problem :-)
[17:11] <mgraesslin> it is called https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=kwin-intel
[17:12] <mgraesslin> the problem was present in 11.04 went away in 11.10 and reappeared in 12.04
[17:12] <mgraesslin> in the meantime we adjusted the default settings so that the Intel driver does not crash
[17:12] <mgraesslin> the important part is that it only crashes in Ubuntu
[17:12] <mgraesslin> which brings me to the thought: would you accept a patch to remove the functionality in question just in Kubuntu?
[17:13] <Riddell> mm
[17:13] <Riddell> mgraesslin: if that's what it takes then yeah
[17:13] <Riddell> I'll make a note to bring it up with the x people too
[17:13] <mgraesslin> wow I found one for Fedora
[17:37] <Riddell> jjesse: "Jonathan Jesse2006-04-13 Expired on 2011-11-21"
[17:37] <Riddell> so you dropped off a while ago
[17:37] <jjesse> yeah a long time agO :)
[17:38] <jjesse> but my mask ended today on IRC so that's what prompted this :)
[18:52] <Quintasan> This shadeslayer
[18:53] <Quintasan> Not keeping ktp ppa in order
[18:53] <Quintasan> :P
[18:57] <Quintasan> Riddell: Any ideas if Delete package in PPA options purges everything related to that package?
[19:20] <Quintasan> THIS SHADESLAYER
[19:26] <yofel> Quintasan: it should delete anything related to it - except the history
[19:26] <Quintasan> yofel: Oh great. You are here
[19:33] <Quintasan> yofel: http://paste.kde.org/526208/
[19:33] <Quintasan> Does this looks sane?
[19:33] <Quintasan> I mean are there any errors in th elif part
[19:34] <Quintasan> not sure if kate section collapsing is wrong or I'm dumb
[19:35]  * Quintasan curses shadeslayer for creating such an inefficient script
[19:36] <Quintasan> Why put things for quantal into ppa when we can upload it to universe now
[19:36] <ScottK> shhhhh.  He's a professional.
[19:36] <ScottK> Definitely.
[19:36] <Quintasan> I have no idea if this script works but I crafted the theory in 5 minutes so it has to work
[19:45] <Quintasan> Gentleman. My theorycrafting skill has been upgraded.
[19:47] <yofel> looks sane, except line 81
[19:50] <Quintasan> HELL I'M A GENIOUS
[19:50] <Quintasan> yofel: I fixed it and added few features
[19:51] <Quintasan> yofel: We can split half of shadeslayer's salary if that's okay with you
[19:51] <Quintasan> I get quater for making it and you get quater for checking it
[19:51] <yofel> intentional or accidental features? (and sure :P)
[19:53] <Quintasan> HUHEUEHUEHEUHEUEHEUHEUEHUEHUEHEHUHEUEHEU
[19:53] <Quintasan> Riddell: Expect blazing fast releases of ktp now
[19:54] <ScottK> Quintasan: Genious at work: http://abstrusegoose.com/483
[19:55] <Quintasan> ScottK: Ha! I use bash, I don't have to care about memory allocation now :P
[19:55] <yofel> hehe
[19:55] <Quintasan> ScottK: Be sure to send me that when I start fixing something major :P
[19:56] <ScottK> ;-)
[19:57] <Quintasan> If only I could automatize checking patch sanity
[20:00] <Quintasan> yofel: I find it funny how shadeslayer links to changes file, that kind of implies he uploads without test building ;)
[20:01] <yofel> well, that's his purpose for the PPA I guess
[20:01] <Quintasan> Hm really? I always testbuild
[20:01] <Quintasan> God knows why
[20:01] <jocarter> heh
[20:01] <Quintasan> Maybe I like seeing the text fly.
[20:02] <yofel> heh, +1
[20:07] <ScottK> For Debian you can't avoid test building since you upload source + binary.
[20:15] <Quintasan> yofel: Well there is some sort of magic going on I can't exactly pinpoint but the target release in debian/changelog doesn't really match up with what I want to do
[20:15] <Quintasan> I change it manually for time being
[20:16] <yofel> what's it being set to?
[20:17] <yofel> and where are you even setting that?
[20:17] <Quintasan> [telepathy-kde]% ./update-ktp.sh 0.4.1 devel    (quintasan@nightwalker:..ging/telepathy-kde)
[20:17] <Quintasan> Should set it to quantal
[20:18] <Quintasan> zzzz
[20:18] <Quintasan> download faster
[20:18] <yofel> if it's set to UNRELEASED that's a change in dch for quantal
[20:18] <yofel> which I guess uupdate uses
[20:18] <Quintasan> it's set to precise T_T
[20:18] <Quintasan> hmm
[20:18] <Quintasan> wait
[20:19] <Quintasan> I just need to switch the logic
[20:19] <yofel> and you're running quantal?
[20:19] <Quintasan> no
[20:19] <Quintasan> I'm running precise
[20:19] <yofel> well, then you'll have to force that yourself
[20:19] <Quintasan> I don't build stuff in vm
[20:19] <Quintasan> I'll just switch the logic
[20:19] <Quintasan> i.e swap precise for quantal in the devel if
[20:21] <Quintasan> now that should work
[20:23] <Quintasan> YES
[20:23] <Quintasan> YES
[20:23] <Quintasan> YES
[20:23] <Quintasan> IT'S ALIVE
[20:27] <Quintasan> ScottK: Didn't we get Elections done?
[20:28] <yofel> elections?
[20:28] <ScottK> We did.
[20:29] <Quintasan> Why the hell it's still in #kubuntu topic?
[20:30] <Quintasan> Do we have someone who can remove it?
[20:32] <ScottK> No idea.
[20:32] <ScottK> I imagine anyone on the council can, but I've no idea how.
[20:32] <ScottK> Riddell: ^^^
[20:41] <Quintasan> ScottK: Thanks for getting that sorted out
[20:41] <ScottK> Did he fix it?
[20:41]  * ScottK doesn't know.
[20:41] <Quintasan> genii-around did
[20:41] <Quintasan> I thought you asked him :P
[20:42] <ScottK> Nope, but I guess he was watching.
[20:42]  * genii-around sips his coffee
[20:46] <jocarter> ScottK: are you likely to go to the next UDS?
[20:46] <ScottK> jocarter: I'm considering it.
[20:47] <ScottK> At least it's somewhere interesting that I've never been to before.
[20:48] <jocarter> cool
[20:48] <Quintasan> ScottK: Do you know if we are going to keep libreoffice-kde around?
[20:49] <ScottK> I would assume so, but I don't know.
[20:49] <Quintasan> Hmm, okay
[20:50] <ScottK> It's upstream now, so I don't know why it wouldn't continue to be shipped.
[20:50] <Quintasan> oooh
[20:50] <Quintasan> it went upstream?
[20:51] <ScottK> Yeah, since a long time.
[20:51] <Quintasan> I remember someone saying it's too buggy and we don't have the workforce to maintain it
[20:51] <ScottK> I think you're thinking for firefox.
[20:51] <Quintasan> Maybe*
[20:51] <ScottK> Yes.  that was firefox
[20:51] <ScottK> Not so much buggy as it touched code that changed a lot so it had to be redone for every firefox release.
[20:51] <ScottK> Huge work.
[20:52] <Quintasan> ScottK: Well currently someone in #kubuntu can't read some of dialogues and removing libreoffice-kde fixed some of the things but he is still unable to read quotations
[20:53] <ScottK> Dunno.
[20:53] <Quintasan> ScottK: It looks like this http://i.imgur.com/9W9Q3.jpg
[20:53] <Quintasan> Scary stuff
[20:53] <ScottK> Scary they've got unapplied security updates.
[20:54] <Quintasan> lol
[20:55] <ScottK> The garbage on the screen looks to me like video driver stuff, but I dunno.
[20:55] <Quintasan> Yeah I assumed the same but I remembered this (apparent) kde libreoffice intergration being broken and I was half right
[20:56] <ScottK> It does have it's issues, but I don't think that's one of them.
[21:21] <Quintasan> fml
[21:21] <Quintasan> still doesn't get proper target distro
[21:22] <Quintasan> yofel: How do I enforce certain distro version for uupdate
[21:22] <yofel> no idea, I see no option to do so
[21:23] <Quintasan> Hell
[21:23] <Riddell> Quintasan: in changelog?
[21:23] <Quintasan> I have no idea why running the script over with different option doesn't overwrite some stuff
[21:23] <Quintasan> Riddell: Yeah, I'm trying to automate the creation of files for backporting now
[21:24] <Quintasan> When I create the dsc and changes for the first time it sets the target distro as precise because that's what I'm running here
[21:24] <Riddell> try adding a -D precise?  (just guessing that it gets passed to dch)
[21:24] <Quintasan> if I want the dsc to be for quantal then I change precise to quantal using sid
[21:24] <ScottK> s/sid/sed
[21:24] <ScottK> somewhat ironically.
[21:25] <Quintasan> Then I do a second run this time with backport as parameter which should replace quantal with precise but it doesn't for some reason
[21:25] <Quintasan> Here is the script
[21:25] <Quintasan> http://paste.kde.org/526226
[21:26] <Quintasan> line 51 does the precise -> quantal swap
[21:27] <Quintasan> and line 77 should swap quantal for precise
[21:27] <Quintasan> but it doesnt
[21:27] <yofel> looks like a rather hazardous line
[21:27] <yofel> ah no, /g is missing
[21:27] <Quintasan> yofel: It swaps the first occurence
[21:27] <Quintasan> which is likely the newest changelog entry
[21:28] <yofel> should be
[21:29] <Riddell> that'll swap it for all lines
[21:29] <Quintasan> Riddell: With the /g at the end you mean? We don't want that
[21:30] <Riddell> regardless
[21:30] <yofel> oh, it does
[21:31] <yofel> stupid sed
[21:31] <Riddell> sed takes a command which it applies to all lines in the file
[21:31] <Riddell> g is about occurances within a line
[21:31] <Quintasan> It swaps all occurences?
[21:31] <Quintasan> so the second run will swap precise1 into quantal1?
[21:31] <Quintasan> derp
[21:32] <Quintasan> 0.4.1-0ubuntu1~ppa1~precise1~ppa1~precise1~ppa1~precise1
[21:32] <Quintasan> holy crap
[21:32] <Riddell> I add the version number as part of the sed pattern when switching only the first line
[21:32] <yofel> lol
[21:32] <Quintasan> what did just happen
[21:33] <Quintasan> How do I handle this?
[21:35] <Quintasan> Riddell, yofel: Well, I could run the script once, testbuild and upload then delete and rerun it with the other parameter
[21:36] <Quintasan> but generating the files and testbuilding and uploading at once is generally better
[21:39] <Riddell> I'm not sure I understand the problem
[21:40] <Riddell> !testers
[21:40] <Riddell> 4.9.0 ready for testing in kubuntu-ninjas
[21:40] <Riddell> for precise and quantal
[21:40] <Quintasan> Riddell: Well you get it, I want to generate dsc and changes file for the current devel release and for last stable release to backport into ppa
[21:41] <Riddell> I'd run dch with the right argument for the devel release and debuild -S and dch with the arguments for the backport release and debuild -S
[21:42] <Quintasan> Can I somehow change only the target distro with dch?
[21:42] <Riddell> Quintasan: why would you want to do that instead of adding a changelog?
[21:43] <Riddell> the normal thing for backports is to add a changelog entry for the backport
[21:43] <Quintasan> Because I'm uploading 0.4.1-0ubuntu1 to quantal universe and 0.4.1-0ubuntu1~ppa1~precise1 to telepathy-kde/ppa?
[21:44] <Quintasan> Well adding changelog entry would solve the problem but well
[21:44] <Riddell> yeah, do add a changelog entry for 0.4.1-0ubuntu1~ppa1~precise1 when it's needed
[21:44] <Riddell> that shows what it is based on
[21:44] <Quintasan> I'll give it a go then
[21:45] <micahg> Quintasan: maybe try backportpackage :)
[21:47] <genii-around> So 4.9.0 is in kubuntu-ppa beta or experimental ?
[21:48] <Quintasan> micahg: I could try but it isn't as much fun as that :P
[21:48] <Riddell> genii-around: it's in ninjas, do you have the details?
[21:49] <genii-around> Riddell: No, sorry
[21:49] <Riddell> genii-around: voila, for quantal or precise
[21:50] <yofel> Quintasan: oh, you can use sed -e '1 s/x/y/' /tmp/bar  to only replace the first line (note the 1)
[21:51] <Quintasan> yofel: Thanks, that should probably get what I wanted but Riddell's suggestion makes sense too.
[21:51] <Quintasan> I wonder which one we want to employ though
[21:51] <yofel> right
[21:51] <Riddell> mine mine!
[21:51]  * yofel would probably just echo the whole changelog entry  himself ^^
[21:52] <BluesKaj> Riddell:  got a url for the ninjas ppa >
[21:52] <Riddell> BluesKaj: voila
[21:52] <BluesKaj> Riddell:  ok thanks
[21:53] <Riddell> and let me know how you get on with the upgrade
[21:54] <Quintasan> okay
[21:54] <Quintasan> Riddell: That kind of helped me but
[21:54] <Quintasan> http://wklej.org/id/801549
[21:54] <Quintasan> Take a look at the third entry
[21:54] <Quintasan> :D
[21:55] <yofel> looks ok to me, 2nd doesn't
[21:55] <Quintasan> this must be sed's doing
[21:55] <Quintasan> oh yeah 2nd
[21:55] <yofel> should be sed's doing
[21:56]  * Riddell snoozes
[21:57]  * Quintasan tries yofel's solution
[22:00] <Quintasan> yofel: now it didn't double the version but http://paste.kde.org/526244
[22:02] <yofel> what's the content before the script runs?
[22:02] <Quintasan> checking
[22:02] <Quintasan> http://paste.kde.org/526250/
[22:02] <Quintasan> This
[22:03] <Quintasan> The first run is with devel parametere
[22:03] <yofel> where's the script again?
[22:03]  * genii-around ponders why 4.9.0 wants to install kolab
[22:03] <yofel> iirc kdepim has kolab support now or something like that
[22:03] <Quintasan> http://paste.kde.org/526256
[22:04] <Riddell> genii-around: just the library
[22:04] <genii-around> Ah, OK
[22:04] <Riddell> incase kmail wants to talk to a kolab server
[22:04] <yofel> Quintasan: line 75 shouldn't be there IMO
[22:05] <yofel> at least not if you're using dch *after* that
[22:05] <Quintasan> Urgh
[22:05] <Quintasan> Certainly
[22:06] <Quintasan> final test incoming
[22:10] <Quintasan> AND YES
[22:10] <Quintasan> THAT'S IT
[22:11]  * Quintasan hugs Riddell and yofel
[22:50] <genii-around> First update/dist-upgrade completed, doing a second cycle right after had further updates, completing those now then will reboot and see if any issues.
[23:05] <genii-around> I have a habit right after kdm of ctrl-alt-f1 then do some things ( check disk usage, dmesg, ping/ssh home machine, etc) while desktop loads then alt-f7 back. In this case cursor was square and frozen for 4-5 seconds and looked like television static until it began to finally move when it went normal again. Probably my nvidia driver.
[23:06] <genii-around> ( didn't do this with 4.8.90 )