[05:02] <Unit193> ochosi: Bluebird from git doesn't make apport look good, but that could be a greybird thing.
[09:35] <ochosi> Unit193: do you have a screenshot for me?
[09:35] <ochosi> with greybird it looks like this for me: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-03282012-113529am.php
[09:37] <ochosi> hm, anyone on precise: could you please check whether the wine-icons are really missing? (i just installed wine here and in the startmenu there's nothing, so i might have to add that to elementary-xfce if confirmed)
[09:42] <knome> pleia2, heh, the "large" doesn't have to do with the image size we are providing, but i could do that ;)
[09:46] <knome> i just updated the beta2 notes
[10:02]  * knome will soon enough do one test at least...
[11:03]  * knome did the mandatory desktop amd64 tests
[12:31] <pleia2> knome: oh, I see, whisker width changes?
[12:35] <knome> pleia2, yup
[12:35] <knome> pleia2, but yeah i suppose it would make sense to also privde a bigger png ;)
[12:36] <knome> hmm
[12:36] <knome> i stripped irc-related stuff out of the xubuntu-logs
[12:37] <knome> and cleaned it up
[12:37] <knome> then pasted it all in wordle
[12:37] <knome> i have logs since january
[12:37] <astraljava> What's a wordle?
[12:38] <knome> http://wordle.net/
[12:39] <astraljava> knome: So is it online somewhere? A link?
[12:39] <knome> not yet
[12:39] <knome> the browser crashed while i was on it
[12:43] <astraljava> Which browser is that?
[12:43] <knome> firefox
[12:43] <astraljava> Firefox?
[12:43] <astraljava> meh... *grin*
[12:43] <astraljava> Although, I'm not very happy with chrome, either.
[12:43] <knome> well, it's 11k rows... :)
[12:43] <astraljava> Yeah.
[12:46] <knome> the print button fails
[12:47] <knome> and apparently, the "save to public gallery" crashes the browser
[12:51] <knome> SOOOOOO
[12:51] <knome> :P
[12:56] <GridCube> im starting the alternate i386 tr
[12:56] <knome> GridCube, thanks
[12:56] <GridCube> s/tr/test/
[12:57] <GridCube> any in particular need to be done?
[12:57] <GridCube> encryption? full disk? autoresize?
[12:58] <knome> GridCube, just anything. encryption could be good to test
[12:58] <astraljava> GridCube: Every one of them need done. New images need all test cases to be run/ran(?).
[12:59] <GridCube> ok ill nest encryption and autoresize
[13:02] <astraljava> Thanks! I'll run some that are left later today.
[13:02] <GridCube> i can't do amd64 ones :(
[13:13] <knome> i think we're looking pretty good on getting stuff done, but i would have hoped some input from outside the team, considering we've blogged and tweeted very actively about this
[13:14] <GridCube> about?
[13:15] <knome> about testing
[13:15] <knome> and about having to retest beta2
[13:15] <knome> anyway,
[13:15] <knome> pleia2, you there?
[13:16] <knome> i made chanes to the xubuntu-website team on LP
[13:16] <knome> tbe, made changes to how it's related to the xubuntu-team
[13:16] <knome> xubuntu team is now not a part of the website team anymore, the website team is part of the xubuntu team
[13:18] <astraljava> GridCube: I'll do amd64's, then, but only on qemu, as I'm away from my test machine for another 18 hours or so.
[13:19] <GridCube> :/
[13:19] <GridCube> sorry
[13:21] <astraljava> GridCube: Oh, not a problem by any means. :)
[13:21] <astraljava> We do what we can. :) After all, we're not being paid for this. :)
[13:22] <GridCube> :D
[13:22] <knome> oooookay!
[13:23] <knome> now anybody in the xubuntu-team are able to log in to xubuntu.org admin, but as contributors
[13:23] <knome> hmm, i probably should change that to authors
[13:23] <knome> hmm, no
[13:49] <pleia2> knome: great
[13:50] <knome> we should look into probably allowing the members of the xubuntu-team to edit pages too, as written in the latest post to -devel ML
[13:51]  * pleia2 nods
[13:51] <GridCube> knome, that means that, for example, i could upload blog articles?
[13:52] <knome> pleia2, http://xubuntu.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/logo-icon-large.png updated
[13:52] <knome> GridCube, you can 'edit' them, meaning you can save drafts, but you will need approval/review from one of the administrators
[13:53] <pleia2> knome: thanks :) updating G+ now
[13:53] <GridCube> oh i see
[13:54] <knome> GridCube, you can also delete your own posts... which is something i'd like to disallow >:)
[13:54] <GridCube> :P
[13:54] <knome> i mean, there's no reason why any 'contributor' should ever delete their blog article, especially if it's published
[13:55] <knome> the problem with the 'contributor' role is though that they can't upload files
[13:55] <knome> pleia2, ^
[13:55] <knome> pleia2, nor edit published posts...
[13:55] <GridCube> im against deleting any kind of information ever, but thats just the librarian in me
[13:55] <knome> GridCube, well, me too. it can be hidden, if that's wanted, but yes, there's no reason to delete anything
[13:56] <knome> GridCube, besides, it's only an administrator you need even if you needed to delete something
[13:57] <GridCube> i think that in order to understand the history of something you need to know the good and the bad of it, if you delete something because you think its bad then you're deleting something that makes you be
[13:57] <astraljava> Yeah, it's real fun when searching for something on google, for instance, seeing it in the hits, but not finding it when entering the site.
[13:57] <knome> GridCube, i mean, like a blog article that never got written
[13:57] <knome> GridCube, or, was deferred before publishing
[13:57] <GridCube> oh yes, if it has no information
[14:13] <GridCube> knome, when it says logo-icon-large i hoped it be like 256x256
[14:13] <GridCube> the one there is rather small
[14:14] <knome> again, the -large is not related to the size the file appears
[14:14] <GridCube> not?
[14:14] <GridCube> its high dpi?
[14:14] <knome> GridCube, besides, it is 300x300
[14:14] <knome> GridCube, no, it means that you should use this variation for *large sizes*
[14:14] <knome> GridCube, the whiskers are smaller in this version
[14:15] <knome> GridCube, if you look at the -small file, the whiskers are bolder
[14:15] <knome> GridCube, but please refresh the image. it *is* 300x300 per my last update :)
[14:15] <GridCube> the image is 300x300, the logo itself its not
[14:16] <GridCube> oh, in fact the image is 104x104 here: http://xubuntu.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/logo-icon-large.png
[14:17] <GridCube> wich is in fact no different from the "small" 88x88
[14:18] <GridCube> and i dont see how the whiskers being different counts as something relevant, but thats just me
[14:18] <knome> GridCube, no, press F5
[14:18] <knome> GridCube, the file is 300x300.
[14:18] <GridCube> D:
[14:18] <GridCube> now it is
[14:18] <GridCube> you did jedi magic
[14:19] <knome> no
[14:19] <knome> your file was from cache
[14:21] <GridCube> :O WICHTCRAFT
[14:22] <GridCube> in any case, i have a complain i should raise to the xfce devels
[14:24] <GridCube> its that, when you have many open aplications that go beyond the panel area you cant see them on the panel anymore, and you dont get an [>] button to display the hidden ones
[14:32] <pleia2> heading out again, have a full day, then a flight back to the proper side of the country, won't be around much again until tomorrow
[14:32] <pleia2> good luck everyone :)
[14:32] <GridCube> good luck to you pleia2
[14:32] <GridCube> :)
[14:55] <astraljava> MAGIC TECHNOLOGY!
[14:55] <GridCube> D: OH NOES
[14:56] <GridCube> technomages are here!!
[15:04] <GridCube> knome, an idea for the future, its it possible that during installation the installer checks if there's a windows network and tries to set it up?
[15:29] <GridCube> onboard issues seem to be fixed :3
[15:35] <knome> GridCube, if ubuntu does it, maybe
[15:36] <GridCube> oh good point :)
[15:46] <GridCube> the calculator icon for undo is still missing on todays image
[15:47] <knome> ochosi, ^
[15:47] <GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-artwork/+bug/963262
[15:49] <micahg> GridCube: not worth respinning at this point, but should be fixed for final and release noted if you think people will hit it
[15:50] <GridCube> micahg, its just a visual bug, but its pretty obvious https://launchpadlibrarian.net/98032846/Captura%20de%20pantalla%20-%20230312%20-%2013%3A24%3A57.png
[15:50] <GridCube> its not worth a respin by no reasons tho
[15:51] <knome> yup, but definitely should be fixed
[15:51] <GridCube> indeed
[15:51] <knome> afaik ochosi is on it, and mr_pouit is going to upload it after beta2
[15:53] <GridCube> knome, have you read this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-bluetooth/+bug/831488/comments/9
[15:54] <knome> nope
[15:55] <knome> micahg, mr_pouit: your take on #831488 ? ideas?
[16:01] <micahg> gnome-bluetooth needs gnome-control-center which is why we went with blueman
[16:02] <micahg> also, that person is using the old version of blueman
[16:29] <knome> micahg, could you probably quickly reply to him on the bug?
[17:00] <knome> GridCube, ?
[17:01] <GridCube> yes
[17:01] <knome> GridCube, may i ask what's the motivation in joining the artwork team in LP?
[17:01] <GridCube> ah... i don't know
[17:01] <knome> GridCube, is it that you are *interested in the artwork discussions* or that you are *willing to contribute to artwork*
[17:02] <GridCube> i don't remember when i asked to join that team
[17:02] <knome> GridCube, the other teams except than xubuntu-team exist for technical reasons
[17:02] <knome> okay, i'll decline you then ;)
[17:03] <GridCube> ;)
[17:03] <GridCube> ok
[17:03] <GridCube> i will be *interested in the artwork discussions* here as usual, and bother you people out :P
[17:03] <knome> heh
[17:03] <knome> sure
[17:03] <knome> np
[17:04] <knome> though if that is the case generally, there's no need to be approved to the team, everybody is allowed to bother/discuss ;)
[17:05] <knome> GridCube, besides.. you should be a member of the team anyway via -team
[17:05] <knome> this all is kind of awkward
[17:11] <micahg> knome: that person isn't subscribed to the bug even
[17:12] <knome> in that case, bleh :)
[17:14] <GridCube> he might not know how to, he might check the bug by himself later
[17:25] <knome> i'm off for now
[21:05] <knome> zmisc, re: discussion in #xubuntu, following what others are working on and getting to know the process is a good way to start
[21:05] <knome> zmisc, this channel especially
[21:06] <zmisc> true, I thought it might be a good idea to e contribute from Xubuntu seeing my contributions would probably be valued much more. Seeing there is less resources put into this derivative.  Plus I've been an XFCE fanatic since the early 4.0 betas and release candidates.
[21:07] <zmisc> "contribute to Xubuntu"
[21:07] <knome> yeah, welcome on board :)
[21:07] <zmisc> Do most of you guys use the daily testing ISOs within a virtual machine? Or dedicate a physical computer for testing purposes?
[21:08] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Testers
[21:09] <zmisc> Considering if I make valuable contributions and begin to help this project, I may be interested in finding a mentor and possibly becoming a true Xubuntu developer.
[21:09] <knome> you probably want to help out mr_pouit and micahg in the beginning
[21:10] <zmisc> With what exactly?
[21:10] <knome> and, eventually, it makes sense to apply for a MOTU
[21:10] <knome> !motu
[21:10] <knome> ubottu, ??
[21:10] <knome> zmisc, they can tell you better :)
[21:10] <knome> zmisc, actually, astraljava can help too
[21:10] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
[21:11] <zmisc> thanks knome you've been an awesome help :D
[21:11] <knome> no problem
[21:11] <astraljava> knome: That's quite bold. :)
[21:11]  * knome is currently the project leader
[21:11] <knome> so i suppose i need to be helpful... :)
[21:11] <knome> astraljava, well, at least you are into the bugs at least somewhat.
[21:12] <astraljava> True, I try.
[21:12] <zmisc> knome: Xubuntu project leader?
[21:12]  * astraljava is also off to running the ISO tests now...
[21:12] <knome> zmisc, yup
[21:12] <knome> astraljava, fortunately, there isn't too many tests to be done
[21:12] <knome> only two mandatory and two run-once \o/
[21:12] <knome> err, three run-once
[21:13] <zmisc> Nice, I will make sure to add these channels to my autojoin list...
[21:13] <astraljava> knome: Oh?! Great news, I was worried a bit.
[21:13] <knome> zmisc, great! :)
[21:13]  * zmisc can't wait to get off to working on Xubuntu
[21:13] <knome> zmisc, right now, if you want to help, do a test :)
[21:13] <zmisc> sure, of a daily ISO?
[21:13] <knome> yup
[21:14] <knome> this should get you started: http://xubuntu.org/news/help-test-xubuntu/
[21:14] <astraljava> zmisc: Good time to join, too. There's a new real development cycle coming up now that an LTS release is going to be finished.
[21:14]  * zmisc begins to download the test iso
[21:14] <knome> astraljava, exactly, though, we need to concentrate getting other stuff fixed too >:)
[21:15] <knome> but generally, people will have more time for mentoring and more relaxed chatter
[21:15] <knome> well, not for another month now, but, anyway ;)
[21:15] <zmisc> yeah, I've used F/OSS for years and years, and finally I believe I am in a position to help. I am not a professional (just a enthusiast) but my skills have reached the point to where I feel they are valuable.
[21:15] <zmisc> I've learned, python, perl, and various scripting languages lately (I've been decent with system administration, and building and packaging though)
[21:16] <zmisc> my coding skills were lacking big time
[21:16] <knome> i think it's a general misunderstanding that you can't help if you don't have "skills"
[21:16] <knome> i mean, anybody can test a daily iso
[21:16] <knome> anybody can triage a bug
[21:16] <knome> and that's not to say i don't value testing/triaging
[21:16] <knome> or those who do it
[21:18] <zmisc> I understand that QA is important, but I wanted to contribute in the creation of the distribution
[21:18] <knome> yeah i see
[21:18] <Unit193> zmisc: And I'm the crazy loon.
[21:18] <knome> but that leads to no new contributors joining the project ever
[21:18] <knome> because they want to start by changing the world ;)
[21:18] <zmisc> and testing, really anywhere I could be used
[21:18] <knome> (no offense meant, but that's how it is)
[21:19] <knome> Unit193, yeah. fortunately we're in the other side of the hedge
[21:19] <zmisc> knome: I understand, I am saying I want to be to the point to where I am able to help in multiple ways
[21:19] <knome> ;)
[21:19] <knome> zmisc, sure, but there are multiple ways to help with next to no skill set or understanding development stuff
[21:19] <zmisc> I agree
[21:19] <knome> zmisc, for starters: testing, bug triage and documentation
[21:20] <zmisc> knome: definately I planned on beginning with testing, and writing documentation (helping users, etc)
[21:20] <knome> then there's translations too, if you can do a less spoken language
[21:20] <knome> great!
[21:20] <knome> we're looking to update our docs next cycle
[21:20] <bodhi_zazen> 'lo all
[21:20] <zmisc> if I can fix the bugs themselves I won't hesitate to send a patch if possible
[21:20] <knome> the old one is originally written about 3 years ago, it seems :X
[21:20] <bodhi_zazen> If you need help with testing of xubuntu+1 ...
[21:21] <zmisc> hehe
[21:21] <bodhi_zazen> Post in the ubuntu +1 forums
[21:21] <bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=412
[21:21] <knome> bodhi_zazen, we only have a few tests to do, but if you have time to do a test... :)
[21:21] <bodhi_zazen> contact me, or any of the UF staff, and we will sticky it
[21:21] <zmisc> I've recently switched from Debian using XFCE to Xubuntu
[21:21] <knome> bodhi_zazen, ah! right
[21:22] <bodhi_zazen> what you needing tested knome ?
[21:22] <knome> bodhi_zazen, well, we're not in panic right now :)
[21:22] <knome> bodhi_zazen, wubi :/
[21:22] <bodhi_zazen> Well, you will get support if you post in ubuntu +1
[21:22] <zmisc> knome: Right now it seems to be the most solid and integrated experience as far as the rest of the *buntus go
[21:22] <knome> bodhi_zazen, but seriously, i don't know when that is tested the last time whatsoever
[21:22] <bodhi_zazen> we have an active community there willing to help you
[21:22] <bodhi_zazen> Can't help with wubi
[21:22] <bodhi_zazen> I do not run windows
[21:23] <knome> bodhi_zazen, let's put it this way: generally, we will need help in testing, but specifically for beta2, we're looking good :)
[21:23] <knome> yeah, i don't think any of us do
[21:23] <bodhi_zazen> Post a thread like this : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1946388
[21:23] <knome> bodhi_zazen, thanks :)
[21:24] <bodhi_zazen> If it does not get sufficient attention, ask for assistance from the forums staff
[21:24] <knome> bodhi_zazen, i will keep this in mind the next time we are in the need, or, when Q testing starts :)
[21:24] <bodhi_zazen> can find them easily on #ubuntuforums
[21:24] <knome> yup, thanks a lot!
[21:24] <knome> we've been tweeting a lot about it
[21:24] <knome> and getting retweets
[21:24] <knome> but not so many tests ;)
[21:24] <bodhi_zazen> Yea, we noticed, but I don't think the forums staff contacted you
[21:25] <knome> bodhi_zazen, no, they didn't
[21:25] <bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=89054
[21:25] <bodhi_zazen> We have several staff who use xubuntu, all happy to help the cause
[21:25]  * knome is quite unfamiliar with the forums, i can't even remember if i have an account... :)
[21:26] <knome> pleia2,  ^^ when you get back... please read the scrollback
[21:26] <bodhi_zazen> Part of what I have been trying to do is to reach out to some of the various teams & communities
[21:26] <Unit193> knome: Hobgoblin (forum staff) runs Pangolin as his main.
[21:27] <knome> yeah, i think cooperation between the teams is always good
[21:27] <bodhi_zazen> do you mind if I communicate our discussion back to the staff ?
[21:27] <knome> not at all
[21:27] <knome> it's a logged channel after all :)
[21:27] <knome> Unit193, hmm? :)
[21:28] <knome> Unit193, relevancy?
[21:28] <Unit193> s/main/main OS/  for testing info or see if something is broken.
[21:28] <knome> heh
[21:28] <knome> sure
[21:28] <knome> my wife runs precise too
[21:28] <knome> O:)
[21:29] <knome> bodhi_zazen, btw, you might want to say hi to the ubuntu studio devs too
[21:30] <knome> though, astraljava most probably have it all referenced already :P
[21:30] <bodhi_zazen> FWIW , the ubuntu +1 testing community has thrived on the forums last 1-2 release cycles, so have someone from xubuntu post there from time to time , you will get support and testers
[21:30] <bodhi_zazen> 'lo ubuntu studio dev =)
[21:30] <knome> yeah, we will have to look at that
[21:31] <knome> we are currently somewhat reorganizing everything :)
[21:31] <bodhi_zazen> happens
[21:31] <knome> yeah, but we are with positive minds!
[21:32]  * knome has learnt a lot of new things in the past 6 months
[21:33] <bodhi_zazen> Who is leading xubuntu now ?
[21:33]  * knome is
[21:33] <GridCube> ^^
[21:34] <knome> trying to set the pace for community, strategy document and documenation overhaul in Q :)
[21:34] <knome> *documentation
[21:34] <bodhi_zazen> OK, well, if you have time, post an update in ubuntu +1 for your needs for the upcoming release, you might be surprised with the support available
[21:34] <knome> yeah, i will do that
[21:34] <bodhi_zazen> Yea, we are trying to contribute to the wiki9s)
[21:34] <knome> (actually i will probably delegate and get that done, but...) :)
[21:34] <bodhi_zazen> wiki needs a little love
[21:35]  * knome just strated cleaning up the xubuntu wiki too
[21:35] <knome> need to move some of the content to our website
[21:35] <micahg> knome: zmisc: MOTU is not required for xubuntu development
[21:35] <knome> micahg, i know, but that's not a bad thing at all
[21:35] <micahg> the DMB can grant upload rights for the xubuntu packageset separately
[21:36]  * knome ponders if that has always been the case
[21:36] <knome> but that sounds good
[21:36] <micahg> knome: well, since packagesets were introduced ~3 or 4 years ago
[21:36] <knome> aha
[21:37] <knome> bodhi_zazen, ^ as i just said, i've been learning a lot during the last 6 months
[21:37]  * micahg was already a MOTU when he became a xubuntu-dev
[21:37] <knome> micahg, climbing bottom first to the tree? ;)
[21:38] <zmisc> What are these drastic changes to Xubuntu that are being proposed?
[21:38] <micahg> knome: I went from mozilla packageset, then +MOTU, then +core-dev
[21:38] <knome> micahg, if you can mentor zmisc with mr_pouit as much as your schedule allows... it would be awesome :)
[21:38] <micahg> knome: unfortunately, not a lot of time right now, very behind on some projects
[21:38] <knome> micahg, well i know.. but maybe in the Q cycle :)
[21:39] <micahg> yeah, should have a little more time then :)
[21:39] <zmisc> I am willing to wait, talking here and getting to know the process will beneficial as well I believe
[21:39] <knome> zmisc, yeah. while hanging out in this channel you will absorb all kind of information you never knew existed ;)
[21:39] <knome> zmisc, re: changes, are you referring to precise?
[21:41] <bodhi_zazen> knome: I added this channel to my autojoin
[21:41] <knome> bodhi_zazen, great! :)
[21:41] <bodhi_zazen> I've been known to make custom iso so can help with some stuff if you need
[21:41] <bodhi_zazen> http://blog.bodhizazen.net/linux/ubuntu-gma500-live-cd/
[21:42] <bodhi_zazen> http://zenix-os.net/screenshots.html
[21:42] <zmisc> knome: yeah, the changes you are proposing are they are concerned with development infrastructure or end product?
[21:42] <bodhi_zazen> If you need help, the more lead time you can give me the better ;p
[21:43] <knome> bodhi_zazen, mm-hmm!
[21:45] <knome> zmisc, for Q, mostly infrastructure
[21:46] <knome> zmisc, trying to make the strategy document more on-earth than idealistic
[21:46] <knome> (that's 4 years old too)
[21:47] <zmisc> ah, what is the strategy?
[21:47] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[21:47] <knome> good luck in reading and absorbing that... :)
[21:49] <zmisc> absorbtion isn't the only plan
[21:49] <bodhi_zazen> knome: tl;Dr.
[21:49] <bodhi_zazen> knome: tl;dr
[21:49] <bodhi_zazen> lol
[21:49] <knome> uh oh :D
[21:50] <knome> zmisc, bored to death is also not a very good option
[21:50] <zmisc> heh, I will take a look at the strategy though... any initial plans on making is more realistic?
[21:51] <knome> zmisc, i have a rough rewrite done on my HDD
[21:51] <bodhi_zazen> zmisc: Delete it all, start fresh =)
[21:51] <zmisc> probably the best option
[21:51] <knome> zmisc, generally, update the target to be a bit less towards "old" machines
[21:51] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[21:52] <knome> zmisc, then, do some updates on the governancy stuff, trying to make it more motivational to contribute
[21:52] <zmisc> Though making the selling point as a distribution that simply for old machines is a bad idea
[21:52] <zmisc> knome: you beat me to it
[21:52] <bodhi_zazen> target - beautiful XFCE ubuntu desktop
[21:52] <zmisc> knome: kinda gives the perception of Xubuntu as a "last resort" distro
[21:52] <knome> zmisc, and ultimately, just cut down the amount of content
[21:53] <zmisc> nice
[21:53] <knome> http://xubuntu.org/
[21:53] <bodhi_zazen> Content should be readable in 10 seconds, use links for "additional information"
[21:53] <zmisc> I've been advocating xubuntu lately, and have had quite a few switch completely
[21:53] <knome> our website already has something for the new "mission"
[21:54] <knome> elegant, modern, efficient, easy-to-use
[21:54] <bodhi_zazen> Pictures speak 1,000 words, add some sweet screenshots
[21:54] <knome> bodhi_zazen, heh, probably not something for a strategy document
[21:54] <knome> but i agree it should be as compact as possible
[21:55] <bodhi_zazen> =)
[21:55]  * knome has cut down about 15 KB from the plaintext file (original =~ 42 KB)
[21:56] <ochosi> knome: re:calculator-icon-bug: yes, it has been fixed in git quite a while ago already. pretty much 30mins after it was brought to my attention by GridCube (also see the bugreport for reference). afaik mr_pouit said it'll take a bit for him to upload those changes, so it should be ok
[21:56] <bodhi_zazen> wow
[21:56] <bodhi_zazen> when they get that long -> break it into sub pages
[21:57] <knome> ochosi, good :)
[21:57] <zmisc> Is the plan to be a "refugee from GNOME3/KDE4" distribution
[21:57] <knome> zmisc, no, not really
[21:57] <knome> zmisc, but since the xfce desktop is a conservative one, it's most probably realistic that we will attract those people as well
[21:57] <zmisc> I do predict that happening possibly though, but a lot of people are realizing the power and simplicity of XFCE
[21:58] <knome> ochosi, so you're back? :)
[21:58] <ochosi> knome: no, just thought i'd quickly check my backlog before going to sleep so it doesn't grow too long :)
[21:58] <bodhi_zazen> Emphasize the advantages of xfce, not old hardware or weaknesses, perceived or real, of other DE
[21:59] <knome> bodhi_zazen, yup, definitely
[21:59] <bodhi_zazen> "the power and simplicity of XFCE" sounds so very much better then "old hardware" or "refugee from GNOME3/KDE4"
[21:59] <knome> ;)
[22:00] <zmisc> bodhi_zazen: let XFCE stand on its own basically
[22:00] <zmisc> on its own merits, along with the merits of collaboration between Ubuntu and Debian
[22:00] <knome> well, we won't use all of the xfce components eitehr
[22:00] <knome> *either
[22:00] <zmisc> true
[22:01] <knome> so it's not a "pure xfce distro"
[22:01] <zmisc> no, but xfce is the centerpiece IMO
[22:01] <bodhi_zazen> Emphasize the strong points and features of Xubuntu - Ubuntu base , ubuntu community, xfce, what ?
[22:01] <knome> bodhi_zazen, you will see ;)
[22:02]  * knome still needs to read his own rewrite first to see if that makes any sense at all
[22:02] <bodhi_zazen> I do not know, but are there a lot of debian users using xubuntu ? A few I imagine .. , but is it really a selling point ?
[22:02] <knome> i don't think it's a competition
[22:02] <knome> why should we "sell" ?
[22:02] <zmisc> Xubuntu (full featured, powerful, simple, easy to use) Extra Value: Support due to collaboration between Debian/Ubuntu etc.
[22:03] <zmisc> its not a competition
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> There you go zmisc ^^
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> much better then b4
[22:03] <knome> i think the best thing is to believe in what you do - and go ahead with that - the users will get your way
[22:03] <zmisc> but the face that it is based on debian/ubuntu means that there is a large community of users to draw resources from, and vice versa
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> knome: spoken like a gnome dev
[22:04] <bodhi_zazen> =)
[22:04] <zmisc> So when you use Xubuntu, you're not out in the cold ?
[22:04] <knome> bodhi_zazen, well, maybe. i don't believe in what they do though, that's why i'm not 'doing' with them
[22:04] <zmisc> Don't you think a community distribution should be representative of the community?
[22:04] <knome> zmisc, well, at least you get something that is done with passion...
[22:05] <knome> yes, the community that is creating it
[22:05] <knome> and since everybody is free to join...
[22:05] <zmisc> what about users?
[22:05] <bodhi_zazen> zmisc: you and knome get to decide, I am only encouraging you
[22:05] <zmisc> the users may or may not be contributors, or of any value to the development process
[22:05] <knome> if an OS should look like its users, how can any OS ever change?
[22:05] <zmisc> I mean, like "feature requests" etc.
[22:05] <knome> because users won't change
[22:06] <knome> users probably don't know what is the "best for them"
[22:06] <zmisc> users wishes in what software does do
[22:06] <zmisc> I mean somewhat like a middle ground approach
[22:06] <knome> feature requests are of course reviewed and discussed
[22:06] <knome> but ultimately, if there isn't anybody willing to step up and implement, it doesn't get done
[22:06] <zmisc> you deliver the wishes of the users in some way, but do it on your own terms i.e. methodology, etc.
[22:07] <knome> that's why a FOSS OS won't never look like the *users*, but the *contributors*
[22:07] <zmisc> somewhat on them lines>
[22:07] <zmisc> true
[22:07] <zmisc> you make a valid point
[22:07] <bodhi_zazen> Nothing is quite as effective as including a patch with your bug report ;)
[22:08] <knome> yeah
[22:08] <zmisc> I agree with that middle ground approach
[22:08] <knome> as the xfce devs *love* to say, patches are welcome
[22:08] <zmisc> knome: and I can see your emphasis in having more users involved in QA
[22:09] <zmisc> that is contribution in some form at least
[22:09] <knome> zmisc, yup
[22:10] <knome> even if xubuntu had only one "true" developer (which has been the case previously),
[22:10] <knome> he can't do it without the guys doing QA
[22:10] <knome> but with them, he can
[22:10] <zmisc> true
[22:11] <zmisc> I plan on putting a machine aside for running Xubuntu development snapshots, and working on documentation, bug reports, etc.
[22:11] <zmisc> offer support on IRC etc.
[22:11] <knome> i have an idea to update the docs
[22:12] <knome> on *how* to update the docs
[22:12] <knome> do you know etherpad?
[22:12] <ochosi> ok guys, until tuesday i'll only be around on friday
[22:13] <ochosi> i'll be on holidays over the weekend and not in the country, so if you have questions either ask me on friday or on tuesday
[22:13] <ochosi> or ping me and i'll read it in the backlog
[22:13] <knome> uhoh
[22:13] <knome> happy holidays :)
[22:14] <bodhi_zazen> have fun ochosi
[22:14] <zmisc> etherpad?
[22:14] <ochosi> thanks! see y'all
[22:14] <zmisc> Have a good one :D
[22:14] <knome> zmisc, http://beta.etherpad.org/p/lgba9hLj7d
[22:19] <knome> zmisc, did you fall asleep?
[22:19] <knome> :)
[22:19] <zmisc> no I just had to step out for a bit
[22:19] <knome> hehe
[22:19] <knome> open that link
[22:19] <zmisc> I am :D
[22:20] <knome> hmm, i wonder why i can't see you
[22:20] <knome> js disabled?
[22:20] <knome> or you are *opening* the link? ;)
[22:23] <zmisc> I am on an unreliable 3G connection right now.
[22:24] <knome> awwh
[22:24] <zmisc> sorry
[22:24] <knome> seems to be really unreliable
[22:24] <zmisc> yes it is, I am on the edge of coverage right now
[22:24] <knome> heh
[22:25] <knome> anyway, it's collaborative live editing
[22:25] <knome> meaning, you can paste in text (documentation)
[22:25] <knome> and edit simultaneously
[22:25] <knome> any edits by me would appear in one color, and yours in another
[22:25] <knome> there's no limits on how much people can join in
[22:26] <knome> i'd imagine a chapter of documentation takes about 10-20 minutes to update with 3-5 people
[22:26] <zmisc> that would be excellent
[22:27] <zmisc> I've done a bit of collaborative writing, but most of my writing I've done has been for research at university
[22:27] <knome> xubuntu documentation having 17 chapters, i'd imagine it would be something about 12 hours of productive time to complete the complete documentation
[22:27] <knome> first do a few "tests" on the first chapters to check if that acutally works out
[22:28] <knome> then arrange an online sprint, with loads of publicity
[22:28] <knome> people can even edit several chapters at a time
[22:29] <knome> with one sprint, i suppose it's possible to get about 1/6 of the docs done
[22:29] <knome> it's hard to estimate the actual time, since some of the parts are really short and easy
[22:30] <knome> others might be a bit more complicated, and long
[22:33] <zmisc> depending on the complexity of the issue being documented
[22:33] <zmisc> and depending on who is present in drafting the documents
[22:34] <knome> yeah, but we have the old documentation
[22:34] <knome> which pretty much has a good structure
[22:34] <knome> and most of the things are still true
[22:35] <knome> and of course, i'd expect the sprint to attract xubuntu users, who should know their system
[22:35] <knome> if not all aspects, at least some
[22:35] <knome> and learning isn't bad
[22:37] <zmisc> I believe people should be a little bit more informed in the inner workings of their OS
[22:37] <knome> yup
[22:38] <zmisc> it would eliminate many of the issues present in IT
[22:38] <knome> true
[22:38] <knome> but seriously...
[22:38] <knome> people being interested in IT and other things more deeply generally would fix most of the issues in life :)
[22:40] <zmisc> like you mean the IT or the general concept of people truly understanding the things present in their life?
[22:41] <knome> both
[23:03] <astraljava> Awww... have I missed a genuine philosophical conversation here?
[23:03] <astraljava> knome: Why didn't you ping me?!
[23:06] <knome> hah
[23:06] <knome> i thought it was better not to let you know.
[23:08] <astraljava> *grumble*
[23:09] <astraljava> Just as I'm deep into these existential crisi-related thoughts anyway, you didn't give me an outlet or a refining process. :)
[23:09] <astraljava> crisis*
[23:09] <knome> humph :
[23:09] <knome> :P
[23:28] <leo-unglaub> in the current 12.04 is an icon missing for clipman
[23:34] <knome> micahg, i know you were part of the xubuntu-team via other teams, but i just added you to the team directly, to track contributors.
[23:50] <knome> i'm off. see you all later


[04:41] <illicittiger> Hello everyone, I have a quick question about the Ubuntu sound indicator. I'm trying to integrate my application with it, and I'm running into some troubles.
[04:41] <illicittiger> Anyone around who may be able to help?