[00:08] <popey> ali1234: they have 3
[00:08] <popey> well, two I guess
[00:13] <hamitron> brb, coffee :) feels cold tonight
[00:15] <brobostigon> good night. sleep well.
[00:28] <ali1234> hamitron: turns out you can uninstall zeitgeist without breaking unity
[00:28] <ali1234> dash no longer works though
[00:29] <hamitron> you tried it?
[00:29] <hamitron> :D
[00:29] <ali1234> yes, i don't want a file indexing service
[00:30] <ali1234> never have, never will
[00:30] <hamitron> me neither, I have too much junk
[00:30] <ali1234> quite amusing what happens actually
[00:30] <hamitron> but in an organised way.....
[00:30] <ali1234> the dash still appears but when you type in it it just "searches" forever
[00:30] <hamitron> :/
[00:30] <ali1234> and you can't access any of the "more applications" stuff either
[00:30] <hamitron> does it search network locations too?
[00:31] <ali1234> probably
[00:31] <hamitron> that would hurt me
[00:31] <ali1234> if you can figure out how to attach to one with unity (lol)
[00:31] <hamitron> haaha
[00:31] <ali1234> they removed "places"
[00:31] <ali1234> so there is no way to actually use a network drive now
[00:31] <hamitron> I use mount :/
[00:31] <hamitron> or cifsmount
[00:31] <hamitron> or whatever
[00:32] <hamitron> I always end up typing smbmount to get the new way
[00:32] <hamitron> :)
[00:32] <ali1234> i just tried using classic for like 10 minutes, or however long it was between logouts
[00:33] <ali1234> and now i don't like that either
[00:33] <hamitron> (12:25:58 AM) ali1234 left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving.).
[00:33] <hamitron> (12:27:24 AM) ali1234<EMAIL_ADDRESS>entered the room.
[00:33] <hamitron> that long? ;)
[00:33] <ali1234> no
[00:33] <ali1234> i logged in from classic
[00:34] <hamitron> only ones I can live with are fluxbox (after some work) and LXDE (if I am lazy)
[00:34] <hamitron> so normally ends in LXDE
[00:35] <hamitron> everything else just feels like it does everything but make my coffee
[00:35] <hamitron> if they made the coffee, I'd forgive them
[00:35] <ali1234> i do prefer using it without a bottom panel
[00:35] <hamitron> but just missing something
[00:35] <ali1234> but having a dock sucks
[00:36] <hamitron> I guess that helps most on widescreen?
[00:36] <ali1234> yeah
[00:36] <hamitron> I think the side idea is sound
[00:36] <ali1234> wouldn't be a problem if it was still possible to buy a decent none widescreen monitor
[00:36] <ali1234> having it on the side is fine
[00:36] <hamitron> yeh :/
[00:36] <ali1234> except for the issue with dual monitors
[00:37] <ali1234> what i actually need is unity on primary monitor and gnome-panel on secondary
[00:37] <hamitron> I see no reason to tell the user where it should be tbh
[00:37] <ali1234> and make the workspace switcher do an instand switch
[00:37] <hamitron> is unity side only?
[00:37] <ali1234> yes
[00:37] <hamitron> oh :(
[00:38] <hamitron> so it would be even worse if you wanted to use a widescreen monitor in portrait mode
[00:38] <ali1234> yes it would be terrible
[00:47] <ali1234> hamitron: install gnome-activity-journal and be amazed at exactly what zeitgeist is tracking
[00:56] <hamitron> wb
[00:58] <ali1234> hmm that's odd, i reinstalled zeitgeist but the file search icon didn't come back
[00:59] <ali1234> that is, i reinstalled unity-places-files
[01:01] <ali1234> it came back this time
[01:01] <ali1234> odd
[01:03] <hamitron> haha
[01:20] <ali1234> well the braindead nvidia driver strikes again
[01:20] <ali1234> it decided that my primary monitor has a refresh rate of 59.95 Hz and the secondary is 60 Hz
[01:21] <hamitron> braindead.... or just dead? ;/
[01:21] <ali1234> guess which one it uses when you select sync to vblank
[01:21] <hamitron> 2nd?
[01:21] <ali1234> right
[01:21] <hamitron> I dunno ;/
[01:23] <hamitron> I've broken the new yahoo mail
[01:23] <hamitron> :/
[01:23]  * hamitron headbutts desk
[01:31] <ali1234> cool, i fixed it
[01:31] <ali1234> for once, there was actually an option to select the display to sync to
[01:31] <hamitron> erm
[01:32] <hamitron> nice :)
[01:32] <ali1234> now the tearing is on second monitor, i don't care about that
[01:33] <hamitron> could it be yahoo charges for email forwarding and pop3..... but imap is free?
[01:33] <hamitron> :|
[02:23] <hamitron> ali1234: having fun? ;)
[02:48] <azelphur_> hamitron, omg
[02:48] <azelphur_> 4 minutes downtime for ram replacement
[02:50] <hamitron> get the ircd running then
[02:50] <hamitron> ;/
[02:50] <azelphur_> I'm taking the opportunity to do some distribution upgrades.
[02:51] <hamitron> :(
[02:51] <azelphur_> hamitron, it fixed the issue though by the looks of it, the md5sums match now
[02:51] <hamitron> I have just flipped with my vps provider
[02:51] <hamitron> wicked
[02:51] <hamitron> :)
[02:52] <hamitron> I hate "features" been removed
[02:52] <hamitron> :/
[02:53] <hamitron> wanna try another distro on my vps
[02:53] <azelphur_> lol
[02:53] <hamitron> but can't, knowing they've removed the minimal image I used
[02:54] <hamitron> also, my account doesn't include the backup option now
[02:54] <hamitron> gotta pay for it
[02:54] <azelphur_> :(
[02:54] <hamitron> so just used tar manually
[02:54] <hamitron> ;)
[02:55] <azelphur_> hamitron, time for offsite rsnapshot backups like me?
[02:55] <azelphur_> haha
[02:55]  * hamitron downloading the image now
[02:55] <hamitron> sort of
[02:55] <hamitron> but mine is only 96Mb
[02:55] <hamitron> ;/
[02:55] <hamitron> well, just under 97
[02:55] <hamitron> ;/
[02:56] <hamitron> even my connection can cope
[02:56] <azelphur_> haha :D
[02:56] <hamitron> so now, I'm gonna try another distro
[02:56] <hamitron> and have the image for teh old distro
[02:56] <hamitron> and sure can somehow get that back on
[02:57] <hamitron> moving /bin and stuff
[02:57] <hamitron> if not, oh well
[03:00] <azelphur_> hmm, not getting amazing download speeds for the upgrade, only 478KB/sec from a dedi on 100mbit
[03:00] <azelphur_> what's a good mirror to hit for superfast downloads? :P
[03:02] <hamitron> from where? ;/
[03:02] <hamitron> doesn't your provider have a local mirror?
[03:02] <azelphur_> hamitron, nope
[03:03] <hamitron> you'd better hope the new kernel works
[03:03] <hamitron> ;)
[03:04] <hamitron> your host fixes your ram, then you got and break the OS \o/
[03:04] <hamitron> go*
[03:06] <hamitron> azelphur_: I am getting 20Kb/s off the debian servers
[03:06] <azelphur_> hamitron, it should work, it's not a modified version of Ubuntu
[03:06] <hamitron> so consider yourself lucky
[03:06] <azelphur_> Ubuntu isn't an official option with my provider
[03:06] <hamitron> ah
[03:06] <azelphur_> so I just gave them a link to the ISO
[03:06] <azelphur_> and they installed it
[03:06] <hamitron> good of them
[03:07] <hamitron> tbh, dunno why they couldn't offer the option to upload an ISO
[03:07] <hamitron> that would be cool
[03:08] <azelphur_> yea, it would :p
[03:08] <azelphur_> but yea, if it runs stock 10.04
[03:08] <azelphur_> then it should run stock 11.04
[03:08] <azelphur_> :)
[03:11] <hamitron> yeh
[03:11] <hamitron> why upgrade btw?
[03:12] <azelphur_> hamitron, because 10.04 old?
[03:12] <HazRPG> \o all
[03:12] <HazRPG> still not convinced on 11.04 yet
[03:12] <HazRPG> some of the ideas are nice... but some of them are pure pants
[03:12] <HazRPG> and the inconsistencies would make a HCI guy just go mental
[03:13] <HazRPG> azelphur_: 10.04 is an LTS dued
[03:13] <HazRPG> s/dued/dude/*
[03:14] <azelphur_> HazRPG, yea, there's also been shitloads of speed optimizations since then
[03:14] <HazRPG> azelphur_: also, 11.04 has some power management bugs
[03:14] <azelphur_> that gets a meh from me it's a server XD
[03:14] <azelphur_> plugged into a wall
[03:15] <HazRPG> my laptop isn't though xD
[03:18] <hamitron> I'm upset my vps only provide 10.10 now
[03:18] <hamitron> haha
[03:18] <hamitron> I want 10.04
[03:18] <hamitron> :/
[03:19] <hamitron> 10.10 just means I gotta use a different version to my other systems
[03:19] <HazRPG> seriously? They don't support 10.04? that's just madness considering 10.04 server is supported for 5 years!
[03:20] <hamitron> yeh
[03:20] <hamitron> but there are 2 bugs in it
[03:20] <HazRPG> in 10.04? Or 10.10?
[03:20] <hamitron> and they were causing a lot of users problems
[03:20] <hamitron> 10.04
[03:20] <HazRPG> 10.04 is now 10.04.2 though...
[03:20] <hamitron> I patched one manually
[03:20] <hamitron> well
[03:20] <hamitron> tar is broken with the kernel they use
[03:21] <HazRPG> ouch
[03:21] <hamitron> so apt-get doesn't work
[03:21] <hamitron> \o/
[03:21] <HazRPG> then they fail, its not 10.04's fault
[03:21] <hamitron> so you are kinda screwed unless you extract it manually elsewhere, then scp it in
[03:21] <HazRPG> my vps is 10.04 and it works swimmingly :)
[03:21] <hamitron> they use centos kernel
[03:21] <ali1234> vps providers like to use crap old kernels
[03:21] <ali1234> like 2.6.9
[03:22] <ali1234> and other dumb things
[03:22] <hamitron> but it is annoying they removed the install option
[03:22] <hamitron> as there are ways around it
[03:22] <ali1234> my vps provider does not support anything newer than 8.04
[03:23] <hamitron> you just need to know basic command line
[03:23] <ali1234> and if you try to upgrade you can get 8.10
[03:23] <hamitron> :/
[03:23] <ali1234> but if you go further it dies because their kernel is too old to run a modern glibc
[03:23] <hamitron> ali1234: have you tried copying the root filesystem manually?
[03:23] <hamitron> ah
[03:24] <hamitron> I am tempted to try build a filesystem using linuxfromscratch instructions
[03:24] <ali1234> basically nothing that they offer on the install page is still supported
[03:24] <azelphur_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/April%202011/2011-05-03-031958_570x498_scrot.png
[03:24] <hamitron> just to be different
[03:24] <azelphur_> I think my dedi host has invented time travel
[03:25] <hamitron> ali1234: I guess at least my host is continuely updating support
[03:25] <hamitron> :)
[03:25] <hamitron> just annoying I have to move with it
[03:25] <azelphur_> hamitron, look at that screenshot lol, how is that even possible
[03:26] <hamitron> they employ someone very fast
[03:26] <hamitron> ;)
[03:26] <hamitron> and you can bet they aren't paid by the hour
[03:26] <hamitron> ;D
[03:26] <azelphur_> haha
[03:26] <hamitron> they'd round it up for sure
[03:26] <hamitron> to 1 hour? ;/
[03:26] <ali1234> how is it possible that you send an email and receive one in the same minute?
[03:26] <ali1234> i don't know, seem not unlikely
[03:27] <azelphur_> ali1234, no, they actually replaced the ram
[03:27] <azelphur_> in that <1 minute period
[03:27] <HazRPG> I have a feeling they just moved you xD
[03:27] <ali1234> no, they just migrated your image to another machine
[03:27] <azelphur_> and all my data? xD
[03:27] <ali1234> yes
[03:27] <azelphur_> in <1 minute
[03:28] <ali1234> sure, why not?
[03:28] <azelphur_> There's 40GB/sec ethernet now?
[03:28] <HazRPG> mv /root/server1/azelphur_ /root/server2/azelphur_
[03:28] <ali1234> um, yes?
[03:28] <azelphur_> that's new to me o.O
[03:29] <HazRPG> azelphur_: you do realise they'll probably have fibre internally right?
[03:29] <azelphur_> yea I guess
[03:29] <azelphur_> that makes sense as a possible way for how they did it xD
[03:29] <ali1234> who even knows
[03:30] <HazRPG> in fact, it would make more sense to have fibre... cos then not only can they shift things just as fast as you seen... but it means they're not going to be totally bombed down with traffic issues with 1M++ servers
[03:30] <ali1234> replacing the ram in under 4 minutes isn't exactly difficult either
[03:30] <HazRPG> (exaggerated for effect)
[03:30] <azelphur_> ali1234, it's not 4 minutes, it's less than 60 seconds
[03:30] <azelphur_> the time stamp on the emails is the same :P
[03:30] <ali1234> it's not like they have to start unscrewing a stupid PC case with all neon lights and stuff in it
[03:31] <HazRPG> replacing ram isn't hard, and doesn't take time... but to get someone to the right server and replace in under a minute is a bit too optimistic
[03:31] <azelphur_> HazRPG, indeed
[03:31] <hamitron> Arch (beta unsupported), CentOS 5.6, Debian 5 (with known problems), Debian 6, DesktopOS (CentOS based), Fedora 14, Slackware 13.1 (beta unsupported), ubuntu 9.10 (with known problems), ubuntu 10.04 LAMP (with known problems), Ubuntu 10.10
[03:31] <ali1234> yeah why would they take the server down and then wander out to where it is?
[03:31] <hamitron> so basically most aren't supported to work?
[03:32] <ali1234> all this proves is that some guy was able to replace the ram in the same time it takes you to open firefox and write an email
[03:32] <hamitron> azelphur_: guess you *did* keep that 100% uptime
[03:32] <ali1234> which isn't saying much
[03:32] <ali1234> meh
[03:33]  * hamitron can type faster than replace ram
[03:34] <hamitron> does wonders for their stats I guess
[03:34] <HazRPG> replacing ram doesn't take much time... esp in a server environment
[03:34] <ali1234> also no guarantee that the clocks are in sync
[03:34] <HazRPG> *pull out rack... pull out ram... put in new ram... power on*
[03:34] <azelphur_> hamitron, :P
[03:34] <HazRPG> that wouldn't take more than a minute
[03:34] <ali1234> of course it wouldn't
[03:34] <HazRPG> but to do that and write an email and to find the right server...
[03:35] <ali1234> the emails are obviously automated
[03:35] <azelphur_> Still, customer support that raises questions about being physically possible has to be amazingly awesome
[03:35] <HazRPG> azelphur_: agreed
[03:35] <azelphur_> xD
[03:37] <HazRPG> azelphur_: dude, seriously check the timestamps!
[03:37] <HazRPG> azelphur_: I wanna know how many seconds it was! :P
[03:37] <azelphur_> HazRPG, how can I check them?
[03:37] <azelphur_> it doesn't say in gmail :(
[03:37] <HazRPG> show details :P
[03:37] <HazRPG> click the show details bit
[03:37] <azelphur_> nope, show details doesn't show seconds either :(
[03:38] <ali1234> show original
[03:38] <ali1234> read headers
[03:38] <HazRPG> show original ungarbled version
[03:38] <azelphur_> where's that at?
[03:38] <HazRPG> click the arrow
[03:38] <HazRPG> (where it says reply - but click the actual arrow)
[03:38] <azelphur_> ah :)
[03:38] <HazRPG> and pick "Show original")
[03:38] <HazRPG> and it'll show you the headers in the message and its true html stuff
[03:39] <azelphur_> My email at Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 02:34:47 +0100
[03:40] <azelphur_> theirs at Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:34:46 -0400
[03:40] <azelphur_> wat...
[03:40] <HazRPG> there's your reason dude ;)
[03:40] <HazRPG> their server times are different
[03:40] <azelphur_> yea
[03:40] <azelphur_> one of the relays says  Mon, 2 May 2011 18:35:32 -0700 (PDT)
[03:41] <azelphur_> so still <1 minute anyway.
[03:41] <HazRPG> that could have been anywhere between 1-5 minutes
[03:42] <HazRPG> I knew there was a reason I always sync my times up to the same server xD
[03:42] <azelphur_> lol
[03:42] <HazRPG> www.pool.ntp.org
[03:42] <HazRPG> ftw \o/
[03:43] <HazRPG> shame not everyone uses them tho
[03:45] <HazRPG> my mage I drew on the computer 2 years ago is now in my minecraft server \o/ http://www.hazrpg.co.uk/tmp/minecraft/2011-05-02_04.07.10.png
[03:45] <ali1234> "mages gonna mage"
[03:45] <azelphur_> HazRPG, win :D
[03:46] <HazRPG> ali1234: ?
[03:46] <ali1234> http://twenty-somethingtravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/haters_gonna_hate.gif
[03:46] <HazRPG> ah
[03:47] <ali1234> i dunno why it just reminded me of that
[03:48] <HazRPG> heh
[03:56] <hamitron> 4am
[03:56] <hamitron> bed time o/
[03:59] <azelphur_> ali1234, hamitron mentioned that for game servers it might be more sensible to use the desktop kernel, because the server kernel is optimized for throughput rather than latency, and also I can get free ksplice. Thoughts?
[04:00] <ali1234> i dunno
[04:00] <azelphur_> very thoughtful :p
[06:04] <MartijnVdS> try & compare
[06:04] <MartijnVdS> I don't think you'll see a difference
[06:04] <MartijnVdS> also, ksplice is SCARY
[08:07] <livingdaylight> just (finally) installed 11.04. I'm quite liking the new mac feel to Ubuntu
[08:14] <kaushal> Hi
[08:14] <livingdaylight> is it possible to configure the side panel?
[08:15] <livingdaylight> hi kaushal
[08:15] <kaushal> I have a Thunderbird message which contains .csv file as an attachment and needs to be pushed to a web server automatically
[08:15] <kaushal> is that doable ?
[08:16] <kaushal> this message is stored in the inbox
[08:16] <livingdaylight> kaushal, just exploring the new mac-feel /look ubunt 11.04 here. Are you using unity or have you switched back to the old gnome-style?
[08:16] <kaushal> and comes as an attachment
[08:17] <kaushal> livingdaylight: please suggest
[08:17] <kaushal> livingdaylight: I have not tried the new 11.04
[08:17] <livingdaylight> kaushal, don't know about that - sorry. Are you still on 10.10 ?
[08:18] <kaushal> yes
[08:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> kaushal: You'll probably need to write a Thunderbird extension to do that. Suggest joining #thunderbird
[08:28] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning BTW
[08:46] <AlanBell> morning all
[08:46] <Pendulum> morning
[08:58] <MooDoo> hello all
[09:07] <czajkowski> Aloha
[09:08] <MooDoo> morning czajkowski *gentle poke* just until you're better :D
[09:09] <czajkowski> :)
[09:10] <KrisDouglas> Good morning
[09:27] <dwatkins> morning all
[09:40] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:41] <MooDoo> brobostigon: morning
[09:41] <brobostigon> MooDoo: good morning.
[09:52] <JamesTait> Good morning, people!
[09:52] <MooDoo> morning
[09:53] <brobostigon> morning JamesTait
[10:02] <popey> morning all
[10:02] <brobostigon> morning popey
[10:03] <MooDoo> morning popey are you well?
[10:03] <s-fox> o/ MooDoo
[10:03] <MooDoo> s-fox: good morning ma'am :)
[10:04] <s-fox> How are you MooDoo ?
[10:04] <MooDoo> s-fox: i'm very well thanks, what about your good self?
[10:04] <popey> tickety boo thanks MooDoo
[10:05] <MooDoo> popey: brill :D
[10:06] <s-fox> Just started work, sifting though my inbox attempting to find anything important
[10:06] <s-fox> But I am okay thank you for asking
[10:06] <MooDoo> s-fox: you're most welcome :)
[10:08] <s-fox> Did you have a good vacation MooDoo ?  The weather was very good.
[10:12] <MooDoo> s-fox: i was working the weekends so i only had the bank hols of, but when i was off i did have a good time.  Did you get up to anything?
[10:13] <oimon> do SSD drives really fail that much? reading popey's tweet about SSDs
[10:14] <BigRedS> oimon: I keep hearing <1yr failure times, but I've not yet seen anyone claim to have calculated an average
[10:14] <s-fox> A few things yes. I tried to stay afk for most of it. Think I did okay.  I spent most of it at the gym, out shopping with friends and reading.  I did touch my computer yesterday to finish up the zenix artwork in time for the next release. :) MooDoo
[10:15] <oimon> BigRedS: it's a ridiculously high rate IMO
[10:15] <MooDoo> s-fox: sounds pleasant :D
[10:15] <s-fox> Oh and basement cat had more playtime than normal since I was in ;) MooDoo
[10:15] <BigRedS> oimon: well, it depends how well you can deal with hdd death
[10:16] <MooDoo> s-fox: yay :)
[10:16] <BigRedS> I know a couple of people who reckon the performance increase is worth it for having to reimage a disk every so often
[10:18] <oimon> at that rate, even RAID 6 on a data array might not be enough
[10:19] <oimon> i feel that manufacturers get sloppy on these things, like laptop battery half-life of around 1 yr , we all seem to accept
[10:19] <MooDoo> s-fox: plans for today?  chill and relax?
[10:20] <s-fox> MooDoo,  I finish work at 18:00 . When I get home I am going to be correcting a bug in the zenix installer. :)
[10:21] <MooDoo> s-fox: zenix? the ubuntu remix?
[10:22] <s-fox> MooDoo,  Well it was ubuntu, then swapped to Debian Squeeze ;)
[10:23] <MooDoo> s-fox:  zenix-os.net?
[10:23] <s-fox> Yes,  the new site is not live yet.  It has been overhauled completely.  New site, new forum, new everything really. lmao.
[10:23] <MooDoo> s-fox: ah :D
[10:24] <s-fox> I can link you to RC2 if you want to try it MooDoo
[10:25] <s-fox> MooDoo,  http://bodhizazen.net/zenix-RC2.iso
[10:25] <MooDoo> s-fox: thanks, i might just do that :)
[10:26] <s-fox> If you find any bugs, please either let me know or pop into #zenix and report them to bodhi.zazen
[10:26] <s-fox> We found a nice one yesterday with awesome and keymapping on live cd
[10:26] <popey> s-fox: what's zenix?
[10:26] <MooDoo> popey: alternate os
[10:27] <popey> well duh
[10:27] <MooDoo> it's not the xenix unix that i was thinking about earlier ;)
[10:27] <popey> ah, it has a website
[10:27] <popey> so it's ubuntu plus a firewall and some firefox bookmarks?
[10:28] <s-fox> popey,  it was.
[10:28] <s-fox> Was being important ;)
[10:29] <popey> so its debian plus a firewall and some firefox bookmarks?
[10:31] <s-fox> popey,  well we are not running firefox but yes. It is designed to be lightweight.
[10:31] <s-fox> Give it a whirl ;)
[10:31] <popey> sorry, i was going by http://zenix-os.net/
[10:32] <s-fox> popey,  Website seriously outdated. New pages will be up soon, as soon as we are finished with the iso's
[10:32] <popey> thanks, but no :)
[10:32] <dutchie> !ping
[10:32] <dutchie> is lubotu3` ill?
[10:32] <popey> I quite like Ubuntu
[10:32] <lubotu3`> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to respond to factoid requests. Call that job satisfaction? Because I don't.
[10:32] <s-fox> lol
[10:32] <dutchie> ah, better now
[10:34] <dutchie> hmm, this dpkg process really does not want to die
[10:35]  * dutchie will try a reboot after lectures
[10:37] <popey> hello envygeeks
[10:38] <envygeeks> Morning Alan.
[10:38] <envygeeks> You know my name why not call me out :P
[10:39] <envygeeks> So popey, you ready for a good session today?
[10:41] <Laney> O_O
[10:42] <popey> envygeeks: call you out?
[10:42] <popey> envygeeks: it's common convention to use peoples irc nicknames on irc
[10:42] <popey> especially given the wonderful tab completion of irc clients
[10:42] <envygeeks> popey: ah yes, I forget you guys aren't privy to my special language yet, I meant use my name :P
[10:43] <popey> envygeeks: The CC meeting? it's another 9:45 hours away iirc.
[10:44] <popey> er, make that 11:15
[10:44] <popey> or something
[10:44] <popey> Tue May  3 09:44:25 UTC 2011
[10:44] <popey> oh I give up :)
[10:45] <envygeeks> I mean Open Week, I've decided to chim in this time (well this week) for the first time
[10:45] <popey> not seen the calendar for today
[10:45]  * popey checks
[10:46] <popey> heh "U1 is awesome" - that'll me amusing
[10:46] <popey> I anticipate a lot of dropbox fans will turn up and provide counter arguments to that assertion
[10:46] <AlanBell> u1 could be awesome if you forget about the file syncing thing
[10:47] <envygeeks> I'll be one of them.  I have a lot of questions about user security, one of which I asked yesterday which I didn't like the answer to
[10:47] <popey> heh
[10:47] <dutchie> i find u1 file syncing perfectly satisfactory fwiw
[10:47] <dutchie> about the only thing i actually do use it for
[10:47] <popey> not sure the guy taking the session will know tbh envygeeks
[10:47] <popey> dutchie: useful if you only use ubuntu
[10:47] <dutchie> popey: yeah
[10:47] <dutchie> need to think about upgrading at some point
[10:48] <dutchie> anyway, lecture
[10:48] <dutchie> s
[10:50] <envygeeks> popey, dutchie and AlanBell: It does have a few sync problems, mostly with heavy write syncs.  We use Dropbox here to sync an AES database with client passwords across all computers, U1 had some troubles keeping up with the writes and we got really out of sync.
[10:50] <popey> envygeeks: do you have some kind of app to manage your passwords or is it just a plain text file, encrypted?
[10:50]  * popey wants a better way to store passwords
[10:51] <envygeeks> popey: we write from 1Password using 1Password anywhere (which was started on a Windows laptop I have)
[10:52]  * popey takes a look at that
[10:52] <envygeeks> Popey: http://agilewebsolutions.com/onepassword/win * http://help.agile.ws/1Password3/1passwordanywhere.html
[10:52] <popey> no ubuntu version I take it?
[10:53] <envygeeks> Not yet, even though they say they don't plan to support Linux, they hint at Global support around the map in their "What we need to do" speech about what they expect from their software
[10:53] <popey> cool
[10:53] <envygeeks> They kept denying the Windows version till the day they sprung it on the world
[10:53] <popey> haha
[10:55] <envygeeks> popey: http://forum.agile.ws/index.php?/topic/645-1password-for-linux-dont-hurt-me-lol/ << this thread says you can run Windows version in Wine too
[10:58] <gord> morning all
[10:58] <envygeeks> morning
[10:59] <brobostigon> morning gord
[10:59] <oimon> bug 743494
[10:59] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 743494 in chromium-browser (Ubuntu Natty) "Did not store passwords" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/743494
[11:01] <oimon> hmm changelog in lucid still says otherwise
[11:02] <livingdaylight> dropbox icon doesn't paint properly on panel since insall of 11.04
[11:02] <envygeeks> oimon: Natty came after Lucid so you'll need to backport the fix into Lucid.
[11:04] <oimon> back to firefox then
[11:07] <DJones> oimon: I've not had any problems with passwords not being stored using chromium-browser in either maverick or natty
[11:08] <envygeeks> @oimon it was fixed in Natty so of course you won't have problems :P his problem is with Lucid though (I assume based on his comment)
[11:08] <davmor2> Morning all nice weekend foreveryone?
[11:08] <seeker> Still the weekend for me \o/
[11:08] <oimon> DJones: which version u have?
[11:10] <DJones> oimon: I'm not on the machine to check, but should be the default version from the repo
[11:10] <oimon> DJones: envygeeks, actually the changelog didn't show the latest iteration at the top: update manager just gave me v 11.0.696.57, which should fix the problem
[11:12] <oimon> panic over :D although i think chromium uses more mem than firefox4 even :(
[11:13] <envygeeks> @oimon there is a Javascript memory leak lots of users are reporting with web 2.0 sites in ff4 though it's unconfirmed as far as I know the exact cause I do know there is a mem leak. users of all operating systems are reporting almost 2GB+ for ff
[11:13] <dogmatic69> o/
[11:14] <davmor2> MooDoo: me owld mukka
[11:14] <DJones> oimon: I've not tried ff4 on ubuntu yet, I like chromium/chrome, haven't noticed any memory problems (although having just upgraded to 4gb hopefully I won't)
[11:15] <MooDoo> davmor2: alreet geeza!
[11:20] <Chris_London> Afternoon all.  Could someone please point me in the right direction for a 'moving engine' screensaver that was in Jaunty?
[11:21] <davmor2> MooDoo: good weekend?
[11:22] <MooDoo> davmor2: i was working sat and sun, but monday was ok, trying to persuade my mates that unity is good, it's just different
[11:25] <davmor2> MooDoo: tape them to a chair, super glue their eyes open and play youtube videos of it being used to them contently for 48 hours if that fails you could always try electrocution #Hardcore_Ubuntu_Advocacy for more ideas ;)
[11:25] <BigRedS> Chris_London: that the one showing various cylinder layouts?
[11:25] <MooDoo> davmor2: rock on...love it
[11:25] <envygeeks> Never gonna give you up
[11:26] <envygeeks> Never gonna let you down
[11:26] <Chris_London> yes BigRed, that's the one.
[11:26] <davmor2> envygeeks: you muppet stop trying to rickroll people via irc
[11:31] <DJones> Heh Silly email "My Norton Antivirus free version is about to expire, click >here< to renew" Ermmmmm I think not
[11:34] <envygeeks> davmor2: I can't help it, I get bored :(
[11:34] <dogmatic69> DJones: seems legit
[11:35] <DJones> dogmatic69: It is legit, but why would I pay to use Norton when there are free antivirus software available that doesn't slow things down to a crawl anyway (for the maybe once a month I log into win 7 anyway)
[11:36] <envygeeks> DJones: My computer is too fast, sometimes I prefer it to slow down, perhaps that's what they want you to do? Did they figure out that you might have an i7?
[11:38] <DJones> envygeeks: Well its got an i3, but even so, default installation junk, I've only left on because I've not been bothered removing it yet, probably stick AVG or Security Essentials on when I get round to clearing the windows side
[11:38] <davmor2> envygeeks: Use windows for 24 hours that should give you enough slow down :)
[11:40] <envygeeks> DJones: I'm not big Microsoft fan myself, I am die hard Linux but on my one Windows machine I will say, Microsoft security essentials is legit.  It's even VB100.  Microsoft put a lot of work into making sure it would be good.  I give them props on Security Essentials.
[11:40] <MartijnVdS> Run one of those "CPU burning" tools, setiathome, distributed.net
[11:42] <DJones> envygeeks: Agreed, on the other machines in the house with Windows, I've put security essentials on them, certainly had any reason to complain about them.  Even my wifes heavy facebook "click this random link" problems haven't gone wrong
[11:47] <DJones> AlanBell: A week or so back we were talking about the different Alt+tab, super key options etc for Unity, was there one for enabling super & tab to give a app switcher that moved things across the screen
[11:49] <AlanBell> shift switcher
[11:49] <DJones> Thanks, couldn't remember which one it was, need to enable it on my wifes laptop
[11:55] <oimon> DJones: solaris used to have an application called xworms which was as efficient as norton anti virus - do you know it?
[11:56] <DJones> oimon: No, can't say I've heard of it
[11:57] <oimon> DJones: it was an X app to slow down your CPU. caught as many viruses as NAV too
[11:57] <DJones> heh
[12:12] <livingdaylight> hi
[12:13] <livingdaylight> not exactly ubuntu related, but would anyone know whether I can replace my virgin media coaxial adaptor with a 2-way coaxial splitter?
[12:14] <livingdaylight> wondering whether these things are standard or whether VM has specific ones for internet and tv / phone
[13:02] <popey> livingdaylight: you can get generic splitters from places like maplin
[13:17] <BigRedS> my word Thunderbird 3's search thingy is useless
[13:17] <livingdaylight> popey, yes, I noticed, on ebay too... I just wondered whether they would do the job? whether they were compatible and didn't diminish broadband quality/signal at all or whether VM used other than generic splitters - thanks
[13:17] <popey> yes, i use one
[13:17] <BigRedS> or just utterly incompatible with how I search for things
[13:21] <livingdaylight> popey, you do? kewl... after we upgraded our broadband to 30mb we had issues and while i was out and partner was in, they came and ripped one of the boxes out. Currently we have one coaxial adaptor/box and two cables and have to switch 'em round depending on whether we want tv or broadband
[13:21] <popey> interesting, I'm going to 30Mb this week
[13:21] <livingdaylight> they figured the extra box created a surcharge which was diminishing and compromising optimal 30mb performance
[13:22] <livingdaylight> its only been hassle so far, but hopefully it will be worth it in the end; as yet not noticed any benefit from our previous 10mb speeds
[13:24] <popey> that doesnt sound good
[13:24] <livingdaylight> popey, like that? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150367542756
[13:24] <popey> yes, exactly like that
[13:25] <livingdaylight> thank you!
[13:25] <popey> np
[13:26] <livingdaylight> popey, paying £23.50 for 6 months before moving to the full whack of £28.00 pcm (or 28.50??)
[13:26] <livingdaylight> £23.50 pcm for 6 months I should precise...
[13:27]  * gord calls popey a show off, 30mb indeed
[13:28] <livingdaylight> we were paying £21.00 or so for 10mb so for a couple pounds more 30mb seemed worth it, as we do use it a lot
[13:29] <livingdaylight> gord, you still on the 56k dialup? ;)
[13:29] <livingdaylight> I remember having a 14.4 dialup and wondering when and how I was going to get my hands on a cutting-edge 56k dialup
[14:16] <oimon> who's ever heard of the other 9 most wanted? http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten
[14:17] <DJones> oimon: I haven't, but I wonder who's claiming the $25M reward for the apprehension of Bin laden
[14:18] <oimon> obama :D
[14:18] <wintellect> DJones: perhaps they'll check the killing bullet and give it to the shooter
[14:18] <oimon> the helicopter they trashed must have cost a few quid
[14:21] <livingdaylight> as far as I know osama ( started writing obama, lol)  never even admitted responsibility for any part of 9/11.
[14:22] <oimon> here we go...
[14:23] <oimon> already heard teenagers on the train saying "i don't believe he's dead, cos i never saw photos, so i deffo aint going to no olympics this year"
[14:43] <bigcalm> popey: ping
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Good. Fewer people at oversponsored mass-marketing event.
[14:44] <oimon> i work about 1mile from the olmypics but won't be going due to prices and lack of choice
[14:44] <oimon> and the fact that a lot of events are in fact very boring
[14:44] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Olympics = marketing for sponsors, not much else
[14:45] <BigRedS> I intended to rent out my room for the Olympics and go somewhere nice and quiet
[14:45] <BigRedS> but then I moved out of London, so it seems less worthwhile now
[14:50] <oimon> hope you're not in weymouth :P the sailing events will be there :)
[14:51] <BigRedS> haha, no, cambridgeshire :)
[14:51] <BigRedS> but Dorset was briefly somewhere to be other than London
[14:56] <oimon> anyone try google voice search on their phones? it is terrible in my experience
[14:56] <oimon> i try an american accent and it works better, but trying an american accident when spelling out a postcode usually makes me sound australian and doesn't work :(
[14:57] <gord> works fine for me
[14:58] <bigcalm> It's useful for light entertainment
[14:58] <kazade> PC Pro post on Unity: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2011/05/03/ubuntu-unity-the-great-divider/
[14:58] <bigcalm> And accurate the rest of the time
[15:07] <oimon> kazade: i don't see how natty should get a high review based on *potential* , it should be based on what is delivered here & now
[15:08] <Psychobudgie> it does seem to split opinion, I'll give unity that
[15:08] <X3N> oimon: I've found that if you set the langauge to US english it seems to work much better, especially for commands and such
[15:08] <livingdaylight> MartijnVdS, yup, we live in a corporate world and its all about da money - profit at all cost.
[15:09] <oimon> x3n instead of UK english? i don't recall seeing that option
[15:09] <kazade> oimon, agreed
[15:10] <livingdaylight> just installed 11.04 and enjoying unity on the whole... very mac-ish with the panel at the top connected to what app happens to be open...
[15:10] <kazade> I wouldn't give 11.04 a high review
[15:10] <kazade> probs 7-8
[15:10] <oimon> i'd give it whatever vista got :D
[15:10] <MartijnVdS> A 5 for me. Unity doesn't work properly (or maybe it does, but I don't think it does)
[15:11] <Psychobudgie> heh
[15:11] <kazade> if I could disable merging controls/title/menu into the panel for all but the top maximized window, I'd be happy
[15:11] <oimon> especially as  the reviews are already saying that ocelot will hopefully fix issues in natty
[15:12] <livingdaylight> It's all about choice. I don't mind unity as long as the alternatives continue to exist; then I don't see what the complaining is about? Window Managers are just a means to getting to the apps. I'd like to see less focus on window managers in the linux world and more focus on new killer apps
[15:12] <Psychobudgie> I'll stick to gnome-desktop
[15:12] <kazade> When I find time I'm gonna patch Unity to work the way I expect it to work, then I'll be happy :)
[15:12] <MartijnVdS> kazade: I've given up an installed Xubuntu instead
[15:13] <popey> bigcalm: pong
[15:13] <oimon> livingdaylight: it's unclear how much alternative will be officially supported in OO 11.10
[15:13] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Xubuntu, Lubuntu :)
[15:13] <Azelphur> Upgraded my server to 11.04 last night :)
[15:14] <oimon> MartijnVdS: i'm not against the idea of unity (since i use docky right now) but it's the design choice and ability to tweak that that is the problem for me.
[15:14] <oimon> bug 740232
[15:14] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 740232 in unity "Window control buttons in the panel don't respect metacity theme" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/740232
[15:14] <MartijnVdS> oimon: But you shouldn't want to tweak! It's PERFECT!
[15:15] <livingdaylight> oimon, that would be a valid reason for outcry; but i'm sure there will always be plenty of alternatives. As I said, my main concern is the lack of innovation in the area of applications. People will switch to Linux because of its applications not because of a spinning cube or whatever craze of the day is.
[15:16] <oimon> although to some people, applications are diminishing since the web is everything to them
[15:16] <livingdaylight> btw, is there a way to manage the workspaces, i.e. add more ? that used to be a right-click and preferences away in gnome desktop before
[15:18] <livingdaylight> oimon, professionals in the field of science and graphic design and audio video media still look for great apps. Its not just about surfing the web and the social media such as bookface
[15:20] <bigcalm> popey: lan over power. My dad has been using it just fine for a long time now with just 2 units. He's now bought another 2 units but is having trouble with them all talking. How many units do you have and is there a trick to get them all talking nicely?
[15:23] <popey> bigcalm: 4
[15:23] <popey> they all talk to eachother
[15:24] <popey> has he enabled encryption on them? if so the new ones will need the same key
[15:24] <bigcalm> popey: ok, good. I was wondering if they only worked in pairs. Sounds like one of his 4 might be faulty
[15:24] <bigcalm> They each have a button to press to link them together
[15:28] <popey> whats the command on redhat to tell it to go and update the list of kernel modules if you add one?
[15:28] <oimon> modprobe -a ? depmod?
[15:29] <popey> yes!
[15:29] <popey> ta
[15:29] <oimon> which one was it?
[15:29] <bigcalm> depmod iirc
[15:30] <popey> depmod -a
[15:30] <popey> it vanished from my head for some reason
[15:30] <popey> thanks :)
[15:30] <popey> bigcalm: are the exact same mfr?
[15:31] <bigcalm> popey: He hasn't said otherwise, but I think he's sensible enough to have bought the same ones. From PC HEll
[15:37] <shadowlemon> Hi; I've put a static ip on a server in /etc/network/interfaces; on /etc/init.d/networking restart it gets the right ip, but after x amount of time it's ip changes. The pc is not being turned off,  and the ip is random, am i missing something?
[15:37] <oimon> shadowlemon: can you provide example IP's of what it chagnes to?
[15:38] <shadowlemon> oimon if you give me 2 minutes I can go to the server to check.. but as far as i know the ip should be <IP_ADDRESS>
[15:38] <shadowlemon> and only the last segment changes
[15:39] <X3N> maybe dhclient is asking for a new ip address after a leasetime expires
[15:39] <oimon> maybe also provide a pastebin of /etc/network/interfaces
[15:40] <shadowlemon> i'll go there now..
[15:51] <shadowlemon> ip changed from <IP_ADDRESS> to <IP_ADDRESS>
[15:52] <shadowlemon> i did a networking restart and i can connect again
[16:01] <jonsaint> hi all. does anyone have the problem of the screensaver freezing after about 5 mins? i an get back to the homescreen but it takes ages and it seems slower with this current release AND i have to enter my keyring twice each time i log in....help!!
[17:23] <gord> hotel wifi now 20 KB/sec :(
[17:44] <awilkins> Is there something that I can use to just log (e.g) the title of each window I focus on to a file with a timestamp
[17:45] <awilkins> What I'm basically after is something I can exploit to write timesheets for me by virtue of scraping a log for window titles / path / etc
[17:48] <Azelphur> hmm, im running rsnapshot in gnome terminal and x has frozen
[17:48] <Azelphur> any way to not kill that process?
[17:49] <Azelphur> or if i kill it will it resume?
[17:49]  * Azelphur prods popey :p
[17:51] <bigcalm> This is so very much the wrong channel to post this in, but you never know who is lurking: a job if anybody is interested http://www.jobserve.com/IT-Engineer-and-DBA-London-Bridge-Permanent-WD5F452CCE3A1434E.jsjob?&r=571F6BE7261E9157
[17:55] <awilkins> Essential : MCSE
[17:55]  * awilkins giggles
[17:56] <Azelphur> anyone care to unstuck me? :p
[17:57] <awilkins> MS certifications in my experience test your ability to do things the One Microsoft Way and little else. (have studied for them but left the job that wanted them)
[17:57]  * davmor2 throws some stick stuff remove in Azelphur direction
[17:58] <Azelphur> lol
[17:58] <Azelphur> guess I'll have to loose my rsnapshot process
[17:58] <Azelphur> :/
[17:58] <Azelphur> stupid X freezes.
[17:59] <awilkins> That'll teach you to use screen | at job | a paperclip
[18:00] <Azelphur> typing screen every time i open a term would be madness :p
[18:00] <gord> set your terminal to auto rejoin/open a screen session?
[18:01] <awilkins> Set your terminal profile to run byobu instead of shell or something
[18:01] <gord> echo... echo.... echo....
[18:01] <Azelphur> how do i do that? :p
[18:02] <awilkins> Terminal Menu <Edit> .. <Preferences> tab "Title and Command"   check "Run a custom command instead of my shell"
[18:03] <Azelphur> what should I use, screen?  But why?
[18:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> s\for\of
[18:24] <czajkowski> waterloo last week
[18:24] <czajkowski> just reminded me of you
[18:24] <czajkowski> and the lack of
[18:24] <brobostigon> is anyone else getting weird facebook chat spam?
[18:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[18:25] <czajkowski> makes perfect sense really
[18:27] <dutchie> brobostigon: fb chat spam usually means that the person responsible has had their account compromised
[18:27] <HazRPG> Thought it was about time I did a blog post lol
[18:27] <brobostigon> dutchie: i have had it , the samemessage from twodifferent peoples accounts now
[18:29] <dutchie> brobostigon: maybe they both got hacked then, not sure otherwise
[18:29] <HazRPG> brobostigon: \o :)
[18:29] <HazRPG> also, \o all
[18:29] <brobostigon> HazRPG: good evening, :)
[18:29] <brobostigon> dutchie: yes, sounds likely.
[18:30] <HazRPG> brobostigon: the fb chat spam is usually for a bad application more than an actual compromised account however
[18:30] <HazRPG> from*
[18:30] <HazRPG> however, that bad application could be doing other things too... and so you should really warn those users.
[18:31] <brobostigon> HazRPG: so the two people i have got spam from, have subscribed to the same bad fb app?
[18:31] <brobostigon> HazRPG: i have done. yes.
[18:31] <HazRPG> brobostigon: there are hundreds of bad apps out there on facebook, so they could have just installed different ones.
[18:32] <HazRPG> most likely, both apps (assuming not the same one) are using the same vulnerability
[18:32] <brobostigon> HazRPG: ah, i see, i will advise them both, to check their apps.
[18:32] <HazRPG> indeed
[18:33] <HazRPG> if they remove the last few they added, they should be fine... however they should also scan their PC's of viruses and malware (assuming win boxes), and then change their passwords too
[18:33] <HazRPG> also, tell them to contact facebook about it to, just to be on that safe side :)
[18:34] <brobostigon> HazRPG: ok, i will do, thank you for your advice.
[18:35] <HazRPG> brobostigon: no problem dude :)
[18:36] <HazRPG> brobostigon: also, new blog post! Woo \o/
[18:36] <brobostigon> HazRPG: let me check google reader, :)
[18:39] <HazRPG> brobostigon: \o/
[18:39] <KrimZon> if i'm in a screen session and i ssh into a remote machine and connect to a screen session there, how do I detach from the screen session on the remote machine?
[18:39] <HazRPG> ah crud, just realised I missed the bit about frame rates option when writing this
[18:39] <MartijnVdS> KrimZon: screen -rD
[18:39] <MartijnVdS> KrimZon: check the manual ("remote detach")
[18:39] <brobostigon> HazRPG: i have starred it, and shared it too all my friends on google reader, :)
[18:40] <HazRPG> brobostigon: awesome :), you should check the video at the end, its pretty cool :)
[18:40] <brobostigon> HazRPG: i will :)
[18:41] <HazRPG> only a minute long, but it works :3
[18:41] <brobostigon> :)
[18:41] <KrimZon> yay
[18:41] <KrimZon> ctrl-a, a, ctrl-d
[18:46] <HazRPG> brobostigon: edited out the mistakes :3
[18:46] <brobostigon> HazRPG: ah, :)
[18:48] <HazRPG> Might just clean up a few of the other posts out, think I've pretty much worked out the best format/layout for my tutorial stuff I think.
[19:01] <popey> 18:15:26 < dutchie> stupid bastardised dellbuntu images
[19:01] <popey> ^^^^ completely fair comment IMHO
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> KrimZon: ah, you meant a screen inside a screen :) I misunderstood that :)
[19:19] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Hassan Williamson] Tutorial: Stop-Motion in Linux - http://www.hazsoft.co.uk/2011/05/03/stop-motion-in-linux/
[19:21] <HazRPG> ha, woot, didn't expect my post to randomly show up like that on here xD
[19:25] <MartijnVdS> With your real name and all
[19:25] <hamitron> evening
[19:25] <hamitron> :)
[19:32] <hamitron> I just read "Shuttleworth on Ubuntu 11.04 Linux & Unity" article by S J Vaughan-Nichols on ZDnet, and I now feel a lot better about unity
[19:32] <envygeeks> Link?
[19:32] <hamitron> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/shuttleworth-on-ubuntu-1104-linux-unity/8780?tag=nl.e539
[19:33] <envygeeks> TYVM
[19:34] <hamitron> I just feel it is a nice ballance article
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> yes. It means I'll be staying with Xubuntu
[19:34] <hamitron> love or hate it, life doesn't have to end
[19:34] <Azelphur> hamitron: all my stuff is back online now :P
[19:34] <hamitron> nice Azelphur
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: I still won't recommend Unity to anyone.
[19:34] <hamitron> problems all gone for sure?
[19:35] <Azelphur> hamitron: yep.
[19:35] <hamitron> cool
[19:35] <hamitron> MartijnVdS: maybe not, but as stated, more to ubuntu than unity
[19:36] <envygeeks> I don't like where he pretty much implies that if we are a Linux power user than we should take out from Ubuntu and find another Distro though :(
[19:36] <hamitron> that was a little harsh
[19:36] <hamitron> but reading on there are positives for those that want different
[19:38] <Laney> that's an embellishment the reporter made
[19:39] <jibadeeha> just tried Faenza icon set - really think Ubuntu should adopt this in the next release
[19:39] <Laney> and it contradicts the last paragraph
[19:39] <Laney> strange article
[19:40] <hamitron> Laney: it is taking multiple angles
[19:40] <hamitron> it is very much how I personally think about things
[19:40] <Laney> that's one way of putting it
[19:40] <hamitron> argue against everything, and see which wins in my head :)
[19:40] <Laney> there's no room for you, but oh wait yes there is
[19:40]  * Laney gets confused
[19:41] <hamitron> from what shuttleworth says, I won't be using a vanilla ubuntu desktop personally
[19:41] <hamitron> but still no reason to give up and go off in a huff
[19:41] <hamitron> :)
[19:44] <mgdm> this is probably an FAQ, but can you turn Unity off? :)
[19:44] <mgdm> I've not upgraded
[19:44] <Laney> you can pick the classic session
[19:44] <hamitron> you can for now
[19:44] <Laney> don't FUD
[19:44] <Laney> nobody will be forced to use it ever
[19:44] <mgdm> that's OK then
[19:45] <mgdm> i'll upgrade and give it a shot, just wanted to know I had a fallback
[19:45] <hamitron> someone said Shuttleworth said it was....
[19:45] <hamitron> ;/
[19:45] <Laney> show me
[19:45] <hamitron> I didn't read it myself
[19:45] <mgdm> [citation needed]
[19:45] <Laney> classic might not be on the cd for 11.10, but you'll still be able to install it
[19:46] <hamitron> tbh, that is why I don't worry
[19:46] <hamitron> lots of things we all like are not on the cd
[19:46] <hamitron> you just install them after
[19:46] <mgdm> If I have the classic session, I can still do the stuff like turn off compiz, right?
[19:47] <mgdm> compiz ruins multiple monitor support for me
[19:47] <Laney> don't see why not
[19:47] <Laney> metacity is still there
[19:47] <mgdm> cool
[19:47] <hamitron> just follow the same safety precautions as with any upgrade :)
[19:47] <Laney> i hope the haters come together and make gubuntu
[19:48] <hamitron> Laney: that would be nice and productive
[19:48] <Laney> maybe i'll join in
[19:48] <hamitron> I guess there will be g2 and g3?
[19:48] <hamitron> or could be
[19:48] <Laney> gnome 3 has a fallback mode
[19:50] <hamitron> I've been wondering if it would be cool to have no desktop as such
[19:50] <hamitron> just have seamonkey loading or something
[19:51] <brobostigon> hamitron: gnome-shell doesnt have any true desktop, as we had it.
[19:51] <hamitron> the gnome is fat ;/
[19:51] <Laney> run x without a window manager then
[19:52] <hamitron> Laney: yeh, just wondering how i could live with it
[19:52] <Laney> i'm guessing not :-)
[19:52] <hamitron> hehe
[19:52] <hamitron> I have my doubts, I must say
[19:54] <Laney> there are minimalist window mangers
[19:54] <Laney> personally i prefer a tiling one (xmonad for me)
[19:56] <hamitron> i kinda like LXDE
[19:56] <hamitron> not tried lubuntu yet
[19:56] <ali1234> the unity rant story is up on slashdot :)
[20:01] <envygeeks> Which unity rant story? The #ubuntu mailing list is pretty much a live rant story right now :P
[20:07] <hamitron> brb, testing new IRC client
[20:11] <ali1234> envygeeks: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/03/1516235/Ubuntu-Unity-The-Great-Divider
[20:25] <hamitron> my messing is over \o/
[20:25] <awilkins>  /o\ what will you do now?
[20:26] <hamitron> hmmm
[20:26] <hamitron> dunno :/
[20:26] <exobuzz> more bad press for ubuntu/unity on slashdot (or is any press good?)
[20:26] <awilkins> I have mixed feelings about it
[20:27] <envygeeks> exobuzz: I have a feeling Ubuntu is going to be taking the heat until GNOME 3 comes out and people see how bad the UI is in Unity, then they'll be like "Oh, now I see why they made Unity, GNOME 3 is just bad, bad GNOME 3, BAD"
[20:27] <awilkins> Upside ; like dbus-menu, like the self-hiding scrollbars
[20:27] <envygeeks> I mean how bad the UI is in GNOME 3 not Unity*
[20:28] <envygeeks> And by GNOME 3 comes out I mean makes it mainstream too, it's already out just not mainstream yet
[20:28] <exobuzz> envygeeks, i just hope some of the issues with unity will be looked into and classic gnome will still be offered in the next release (they said they wouldnt)
[20:28] <awilkins> Downside ; do not like the way all app windows are represented in launcher bar, even when not on current desktop. Do not like apparent inability to start an additional window for an app just by clicking it's launcher icon.
[20:29] <awilkins> I could stomach the "no new window" thing if it took a modifier key (like shift, or ctrl)
[20:29] <envygeeks> exobuzz: even though Mark said there were some things that were a no go for changes I too hope that he will fall to the demand and put in some of the most wanted things.
[20:30] <exobuzz> envygeeks, issues like no alternatives to many often used applets.. and click top left. get  8 big icons on the display. on 1920x1080p they are too big and look silly (lots of mouse movement to get to them). on 800x480 they are still too big and dont fit on the screen
[20:30] <awilkins> A good UI is about what feels intuitive - it felt intuitive to me when a straight click failed to spawn a new window, to try using shift or ctrl
[20:31] <exobuzz> i still prefer the linuxmint style desktop with a "smart menu" like on some other os too
[20:31] <ali1234> envygeeks: but gnome 3 is already out
[20:31] <envygeeks> ali1234: read my second comment elaborating already out please...
[20:31] <ali1234> so iow when f15 comes out?
[20:31] <envygeeks> "(8:28:15 PM) envygeeks: And by GNOME 3 comes out I mean makes it mainstream too, it's already out just not mainstream yet"
[20:32] <ali1234> gnome 3 will just make it worse
[20:32] <exobuzz> why is everyone trying to re-invent the gui anyway.
[20:32] <ali1234> because then people will realise that there isn't even an alternative
[20:32] <ali1234> exobuzz: what do you mean "everyone"
[20:32] <hamitron> new ideas are often tried, some stick, some go
[20:33] <ali1234> gnome and canonical are the only ones trying to do it
[20:33] <envygeeks> KDE 4 did it too ali1234
[20:33] <ali1234> lol no
[20:33] <ali1234> KDE4 is just a new theme on the same old KDE
[20:33] <envygeeks> I'm pretty sure they had some major UI changes that people didn't like and especially backend changes
[20:33] <exobuzz> ali1234, i mean, lots of desktop environments/os' jolios, ubuntu, kde (although kde aint too different), gnome 3, chromeos
[20:33] <ali1234> yeah they changed all the backend
[20:33] <ali1234> this has nothing to do with the UI
[20:34] <ali1234> the UI itself is still exactly the same
[20:34] <ali1234> they added on a windows 7 copy start menu but you can turn it off easily
[20:34] <mgdm> I just did "vim http://pastebin.com/something" by mistake, and it worked!
[20:34] <ali1234> other than that everything else is identical
[20:34] <mgdm> Vim is magic
[20:34] <ali1234> same old panel
[20:34] <exobuzz> vim was made on the Amiga ;-)
[20:34] <brobostigon> mgdm: :)
[20:34] <ali1234> as for chromeos........ it's just google chrome running in fullscreen mode
[20:35] <ali1234> that's only innovative in that nobody was dumb enough to try it before
[20:35] <exobuzz> yeh. but really my things are with gnome3/ubuntu
[20:35] <envygeeks> I've never used KDE but http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=55464&start=15 ... just sayin' :P
[20:36] <ali1234> envygeeks: i don't understand what is your point
[20:36] <ali1234> one guy liked it, so it must be completely different?
[20:36] <envygeeks> My point is, that you are saying they didn't make changes to the UI when they did
[20:36] <ali1234> no, they didn't
[20:36] <envygeeks> right.
[20:36] <ali1234> there is still a start menu, a task bar, and a tray with a clock, exactly like there has always been
[20:37] <ali1234> the difference is that now they are generated using plasmoids, which means you can't theme them
[20:37] <envygeeks> and by that theory because Ubuntu still has one in Unity it's not changed it's UI either
[20:37] <ali1234> kind of like how you can't change the unity theme actually
[20:37] <ali1234> but ubuntu no longer has a start menu or a tray
[20:37] <ali1234> this is why people do not like it
[20:37] <ali1234> it also doesn't have a task bar
[20:38] <ali1234> so in other words, by this metric, unity is radically different, while KDE is exactly the same as old versions
[20:38] <hamitron> lubuntu has all those
[20:38] <exobuzz> and no support for the old applets
[20:38] <ali1234> KDE still has all the same old panel applets it always had
[20:38] <ali1234> unity has virtually none
[20:38] <hamitron> lxde?
[20:39] <ali1234> lxde and xfce are both not trying to reinvent the desktop too
[20:39] <exobuzz> unity doesnt work on my small screen or my big screen. surely that's a failure. it was trying to target both ?
[20:39] <ali1234> it's really just gnome 3 and unity
[20:39] <envygeeks> Just go back to slackware and call it a day
[20:39] <hamitron> ali1234: so if you want new, can use gnome3 or unity, if you want old, can use something else
[20:40] <ali1234> the problem with lxde and xfce both is that they lack features
[20:40] <ali1234> it's like using gnome from 10 years ago
[20:40] <ali1234> and KDE is just nasty
[20:40] <hamitron> suppose can use gnome2 then
[20:40] <exobuzz> i havent tried kde for a while. might have to have a drive again
[20:40] <exobuzz> used to use kde3
[20:41] <ali1234> exobuzz: you still have to spend a few days setting it up to make it usable
[20:41] <ali1234> in that respect nothing has changed
[20:41] <exobuzz> i doubt it will take me a few days but i take your point
[20:42] <ali1234> the defaults are as bad as they've always been, and the options are the same as always, so in the end you'll just end up configuring it exactly like you had KDE3
[20:42] <exobuzz> im going to do a screenshot to show off "unity 2d" on the o2 joggler..
[20:42] <hamitron> why not have a meta-package like gnome-desktop or classic-desktop?
[20:42] <ali1234> the other problem with KDE is the developers don't seem to test with custom settings at all
[20:42] <exobuzz> i think ubuntu should keep "gnome classic". after all. its just choice, and choice is good
[20:43] <envygeeks> hamiltron: yesterday they implied that GNOME 2 UI is dead because it's no longer maintained and I don't think Ubuntu wants to take it up (just yet)
[20:43] <ali1234> it's not hard to find graphical bugs in KDE as as soon as you modify one part, it tends to shift everything else out of the correct position
[20:43] <envygeeks> "unfortunately the GNOME 2 interface is unmaintained, she did serve us well for 7 years though" -- JCastro
[20:43] <ali1234> it's particularly bad with fonts, and has been since 3
[20:44] <hamitron> so ubuntu moving to unity could be good for Gnome 2 interface
[20:44] <hamitron> ;)
[20:44] <hamitron> it could well draw attention to it
[20:44] <hamitron> get it some love
[20:44] <ali1234> gnome 2 isn't exactly great either tbh
[20:45] <ali1234> the one thing it has going for it is it's reliable
[20:45] <hamitron> but do you prefer it to unity?
[20:45] <ali1234> yes
[20:45] <hamitron> so there will be others too
[20:46] <hamitron> some may even join in to maintain it
[20:46] <hamitron> if they feel there is nowhere else to go
[20:49] <exobuzz> unity on 800x480 - it could at least look at the screen res to work out the best size for the icons! http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/unity2.png
[20:49] <exobuzz> (unity 2d to be precise)
[20:49] <ali1234> fail
[20:50] <exobuzz> and on full hd http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/unity.png
[20:50] <ali1234> why are those icons so damn big in the first place?
[20:50] <exobuzz> (still too big)
[20:50] <ali1234> the dash is complete fail
[20:50] <Karti> Hi all
[20:50] <hamitron> hi Karti
[20:51] <Karti> hamitron, Hi
[20:51] <ali1234> hi
[20:52] <Karti> Any great opinions about virus protection within linux?
[20:53] <mgdm> You don't need it
[20:53] <mgdm> (yet)
[20:53] <DJones> Karti: To be honest, I wouldn't bother with virus protection
[20:53] <DJones> !virus
[20:53] <lubotu3`> Antivirus is something you don't need on !Linux. except where files are then passed to windows computers (perhaps using samba), See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Antivirus
[20:53] <exobuzz> i use clamav
[20:53] <ali1234> what mgdm means is you don't need it unless you run a server with php
[20:53] <exobuzz> (mostly with my mail server)
[20:53]  * mgdm looks at ali1234
[20:54] <hamitron> it is polite and maybe a good idea to run clamav to protect users who are unlucky enough to be on windows
[20:54] <Karti> On my previous (and wifes) build used clamav with a pipe set up for Evolution, but I'm just wondering if I should bother with 11.04
[20:54] <Karti> I like hamitron's polite bit
[20:55] <Karti> So mine is really personal mail only rather than servers
[20:55] <hamitron> well, your friends would consider it rude if you sent them viruses :)
[20:55] <livingdaylight>  i miss the weather aspect to the time/date on panel
[20:56] <ali1234> it's also handy for working out who you know who is an idiot
[20:56] <livingdaylight> can still add world clocks, but not the weather
[20:59] <Karti> hamitron, they would be shocked to get an email!!
[20:59] <hamitron> as would mine :)
[21:00] <hamitron> bbl, gotta tidy up some tools I was using earlier
[21:00] <awilkins> livingdaylight, I think the weather applet is not installed by default now
[21:00] <exobuzz> ali1234, I better have a forum whinge too ;-) http://www.jogglerwiki.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111&p=970#p970
[21:01] <DJones> livingdaylight: Have you checked in software centre for weather applet?
[21:01] <ali1234> a lot of the problems with unity are things that used to be a problem with gnome (and often still are a problem with KDE, XFCE etc)
[21:01] <ali1234> for example, handling of fullscreen applications
[21:01] <ali1234> it took gnome years to get that right
[21:01] <ali1234> now unity comes along and it's back to square one
[21:02] <exobuzz> 1 is generous.
[21:02] <Karti> DJones, nice virus link before. Interesting read thanks
[21:03] <DJones> Karti: Your welcome
[21:03] <ali1234> this is why all the people saying "just switch" are so annoying
[21:04] <ali1234> i could switch to KDE and start complaining about how that doesn't work right either
[21:04] <ali1234> but then all the KDE people would say "well, why did you switch?"
[21:05] <livingdaylight> DJones, no, haven't. awilkins I always thought it was part and parcel of the clock not a separate install/uninstallable app. Will look for it
[21:05] <Karti> Can I assume that the discussion is on teh latest Natty desktop?
[21:06] <ali1234> of course?
[21:06] <awilkins> What else?
[21:06] <DJones> livingdaylight: Seems to be something called indicator-weather in synaptic
[21:07] <Karti> for my five pennies I like it  - looks good (though  30 years ago I DID wear tanktops!!)
[21:08] <awilkins> I do like the slim scrollbars. I wish they worked consistently on everything.
[21:08] <awilkins> e.g. - xchat-gnome, still standard scrollbar. Eclipse - slim scrollbar, but no popup scroll tool
[21:10] <DJones> awilkins: When you think you've worked the scroll bars out, then you have to think about the same scroll bar in windowed and full screen apps being different
[21:11] <Karti> I'm just pleased I was able to keep wobbly windows. I really don't know how I would have coped otherwise :)
[21:11] <awilkins> What's with the little blue corner on the top left? Notifier tag?
[21:12] <awilkins> (someone reply to me so I can test that theory)
[21:12] <DJones> awilkins: What little blue corner?
[21:12] <awilkins> The one that appears top left when an app has an alert flag raised :-)
[21:12] <awilkins> Like the one that just happened
[21:12] <DJones> I don't get that
[21:12] <awilkins> Focus on another app
[21:13] <awilkins> DJones, like that
[21:13] <DJones> But maybe its because I'm using irssi via ssh
[21:13] <awilkins> Ah
[21:13] <awilkins> Probably other apps trigger it also
[21:13] <awilkins> Anything that makes their launcher icon jiggle
[21:13] <awilkins> Mmmn, redraw glitches
[21:14] <awilkins> I'm actually looking forward to Wayland
[21:14] <brobostigon> same issue in gwibber, left panel, new scroll bar.right side, old scroll bar.
[21:14] <awilkins> If nothing else, Wayland will update the rendering, hopefully to the point where the window-texture-tearing is fixed
[21:15] <DJones> Lets try with xchat
[21:15] <DJones> Ping DGJOnes
[21:15] <DJones> I see the little blue corner now
[21:17] <livingdaylight> DJones, thanks... does it need a restart to put in place. I don't see it as yet, unless it now configures in a different manner
[21:18] <DJones> livingdaylight: I don't know, I've not tried it, just saw it was available
[21:18] <livingdaylight> k, thx
[21:24] <Karti> Night all, thanks for teh AV stuff :)
[21:26] <jibadeeha>  wonder when Ubuntu will use Wayland .. guessing some way off
[22:04] <popey> jibadeeha: yeah, probably not until at least 12.10
[22:05] <popey> doubt they'd put it in before 12.04 LTS
[22:05] <jibadeeha> popey, do you think it will get rid of all that switching to and from the console, you know like when you shut down
[22:05] <popey> the flicker?
[22:05] <popey> would be nice wouldn't it
[22:05] <jibadeeha> yeah really looks unprofessional
[22:06] <jibadeeha> i know it can't be high priority but it would be nice yes
[22:12] <hamitron> what flickering?
[22:38] <mgdm> Hmmm
[22:38] <mgdm> since my Natty upgrade, I have no sound
[22:41] <mgdm> Right, so unmuting it in alsamixer worked
[22:41]  * mgdm has ringing ears now needs new underwear
[23:06] <exobuzz> ... booted into system rescue cd waiting for partition to resize...
[23:07] <exobuzz> is it normal for resize2fs to sit at 100cpu for ages?
[23:07] <exobuzz> (using gparted so i cant see whats going on really)
[23:09] <gord> resizing file systems can always take forever
[23:11] <exobuzz> aah now its actually doing something
[23:12] <exobuzz> probably there was a lot to @think@ about
[23:12] <exobuzz> (i have a lot of small files)
[23:13] <exobuzz> reboot
[23:29] <exobuzz> i was just looking at converting my partion table from mbr to gpt. you would think parted can do it but it seems i need gpt fdisk
[23:30] <exobuzz> or i could note down the "offset" values and do it manually i guess.
[23:30] <ali1234> why you want to do that?
[23:30] <ali1234> mbr isn't really that important?
[23:30] <exobuzz> to install windows 7
[23:31] <exobuzz> *cough*
[23:31] <ali1234> windows 7 requires it?
[23:31] <exobuzz> on efi puters it seems so
[23:31] <ali1234> oh
[23:31] <ali1234> weird stuff
[23:40] <dutchie> well it appears that dell's modifications to ubuntu 8.04 have made it completely useless and destroyed ubuntu's image in the eyes of one facebook friend and probably a good chunk of her friends
[23:42] <hamitron> dutchie: why?
[23:42] <dutchie> "ughh is fed up with technology..ubuntu 8.04.. no skype and now locked out of student finance"
[23:43] <dutchie> there appears to be a rather large lack of documentation, and i certainly couldn't help her with it earlier
[23:43] <hamitron> :/
[23:44] <hamitron> to be fair, a lot of comp suppliers kill all OS ;) Packard Bell made me hate Windows 7
[23:45] <hamitron> brb