[00:01] <jMyles> I am tempted to chmod -R 750 * for a bunch of places, including /var, /etc, /home - is this a bad idea?
[00:01] <hggdh> generically, yes, it's bad
[00:01] <hggdh> for example, ~/.ssh
[00:02] <soren> jMyles: Yeah, don't do that.
[00:02] <jMyles> Well I created a new user and I'm surprised how much access they have
[00:02] <jMyles> I want them to only have access to ~
[00:03] <jMyles> for example, they can read everything in /etc/apache2/sites-enabled - I do not want this
[00:07] <jMyles> How about instead of 750, I go o=X ?
[00:12] <orudie_> how would I look up the cpu info ?
[00:12] <Sam-I-Am> orudie_: cat /proc/cpuinfo
[00:13] <orudie_> thanx
[00:18] <Hypnoz> anyone know if I add /etc/event.d/ttyS0 so I can support a serial adapter, is there any way to apply that device without rebooting?
[00:41] <qman__> Hypnoz, sudo start ttyS0
[00:42] <Hypnoz> qman__: OH SNAP you da man!
[00:43] <Hypnoz> qman__: was trying telinit q and telinit u, but I'm wondering if those only apply to the old init.d system, not event.d
[00:43] <qman__> yeah, all that stuff is gone away in ubuntu now
[00:43] <Hypnoz> qman__: "start" and "stop" are for event.d I'd guess?
[00:43] <qman__> yes
[00:44] <qman__> and 'service' is now in ubuntu by default, for the rest
[00:44] <Hypnoz> like the RH command, i can do service network restart?
[00:44] <qman__> yes
[00:45] <Hypnoz> maybe some motivation to move up from 8.04 at some point
[00:45] <Hypnoz> but I'm kinda hesistant to dist-upgrade all my servers ... if it ain't broke don't fix it
[00:48] <lullabud> oi... just booted up an AIX machine.  this thing is like a haunted house.
[00:48] <lullabud> ksh default, and the up arrow moves the cursor upwards on the screen
[00:48] <lullabud> hah... boy do I love gnu.
[00:49] <Hypnoz> eek quick reimage
[00:49] <lullabud> if you can believe it, some of our customers actually still use AIX.
[00:55] <twb> And I bet service(8) ignores policy-rc.d(8) >:-/
[00:56] <Psi-Jack> I'm considering trying out the Ubuntu-Server 10.4 beta1 for it's UEC. How reliable is that if anyone else by chance uses it yet?
[00:57] <lullabud> Psi-Jack: i'm running it in a vm to host mediawiki and do miscellaneous tasks and it's working fine for me.
[00:57] <Psi-Jack> Oh yeah? Cool. I know 10.4 is due to release by the end of next month, so I hoped it was reasonably stable at the moment with all the freezes.
[00:58] <Psi-Jack> And 10.4 is the new LTS?
[00:58] <lullabud> Psi-Jack: yeah, LTS.
[00:58] <Psi-Jack> Will be anyway. ;)
[00:58] <lullabud> Psi-Jack: it seems like a lot of the issues, as always, are tied to GUI apps, so if you go headless you're much less prone to problems.
[00:58] <lullabud> Psi-Jack: that being said, i just upgraded a gui install with zero problems.
[00:58] <Psi-Jack> Right, and my server is headless. ;)
[00:59] <Psi-Jack> I only plan to have GUI by UEC standpoints.
[00:59] <Psi-Jack> Which is totally web based as I understand.
[00:59] <Psi-Jack> Web/CLI that is.
[00:59] <lullabud> Psi-Jack: well, join us in #ubuntu+1 if you're taking the plunge
[01:00] <lullabud> Psi-Jack: beta2 comes out april 8th, so you may want to hold out another 2 weeks...
[01:00] <lullabud> er... week and a half
[01:00] <Psi-Jack> I can always upgrade or dist-upgrade, no? ;)
[01:01] <Psi-Jack> These aren't live production servers anyway, just gathering ideas and trying out various options.
[01:01] <Psi-Jack> OpenSUSE with it's Xen Hypervisor approach, which seems really nice.. Citrix XenServer, which is effing awesome, but limited. And now, UEC, which I don't like some of it's approaches, but until I actually try it, I can't knock it.
[01:17] <fluvvell> for those in on the question re XDMCP, has anyone tried a simple ssh -X login with a gnome-session, and / or seen scripting to make that work well and automated for a client ?
[01:17] <lullabud> fluvvell: ssh -X/Y work fine, as does Xnest
[01:18] <fluvvell> lullabud, my understanding was that xnest uses tsclient  ?
[01:18] <lullabud> fluvvell: i think that's vice versa...
[01:18] <Psi-Jack> heh.
[01:18] <Psi-Jack> In the UEC, what is Walrus?
[01:23] <fluvvell> lullabud, I think i mean that the client machine logs in with tsclient.  I'd need to install xnest on the server. Prob I have is that we have virtualbox running with port 3389 in use and I haven't checked if I can do both at once
[01:24] <lullabud> fluvvell: no, that's not true.  tsclient is a client for logging in with various other methods, like MS RDP and such.  xnest basically is network redirected X sessions, just like ssh -Y but with a windowed desktop.
[01:25] <lullabud> fluvvell: you can get something similar if you ssh -Y and then run startx, but it's not in a window.  xnest nests the remote X session in a window so you don't end up with two docks, two of everything
[01:25] <lullabud> all overlapping each other...
[01:26] <lullabud> fluvvell: first google link validates most of that... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsclient
[01:27] <lullabud> ..that is, first google result for "tsclient"
[01:30] <lullabud> fluvvell: oh, so back to server vs client, you don't need to install xnest on the server, you have to have xnest on the client.
[01:31] <fluvvell> lullabud, yes - though the nail I'm trying to hit is to replace XDMCP. My user was working well in Jaunty, when upgraded to karmic the XDMCP support failed. So she only needs to show one desktop, that of the session on the server. I've gotten around the lack of a  server-locating utility in gdm by starting her client machine with kdm. But for some reason, (I suspect the version of xorg at this stage) there are no XDMCP servers showin
[01:31] <fluvvell> g.
[01:32] <lullabud> oh, i see, i see...
[01:32] <lullabud> then no, xnest is not what you need.
[01:32] <fluvvell> Sry, that was a long post
[01:33] <lullabud> fluvvell: there are some conf files you can tweak, i forget which, that enable/disable xdmcp.  i think it's xorg.conf... might have some notes around somewhere....
[01:33] <fluvvell> no, but If I could think through the ssh /startx thing, I could probably work it out.
[01:33] <fluvvell> lullabud, yes. I've just been down to the site and I think the fact that he has the ATI commercial x server stuff installed, thats where the issues begin - that and possibly compiz
[01:34] <lullabud> hmm.  compiz, i don't know... never done that with xnest.
[01:34] <fluvvell> which i should disable, and start with a bog standard setup.
[01:35] <fluvvell> and the fact that its a cafe and its the lunch /2h period, I've skipped away to lick my wounds and think it out. :-)
[01:37] <lullabud> well, they are surely moving away from xdmcp.  i hadn't used it in a long time, but looking now it's clear that they're doing away with it for some reason.
[01:37] <lullabud> they say it's insecure, which i can't validate...
[01:37] <lullabud> perhaps they're moving to vnc or something...
[01:38] <lullabud> vnc has never been reliable for me in linux though, so it's disappointing to see xdmcp being dropped.
[01:39] <lullabud> the xdmcp support on the 6.06 livecd saved my ass one time when i had to configure a solaris machine that had no monitor port.
[01:39] <twb> What's this about dropping XDMCP?
[01:40] <lullabud> twb: eh, gnome is moving away from xdmcp
[01:40] <lullabud> twb: it's no longer a login option to connect to a remote machine rather than the local...
[01:40] <lullabud> and it's missing from other places too
[01:40] <twb> FSVO gnome = gdm?
[01:40] <lullabud> fsvo?
[01:40] <twb> For Some Value Of
[01:41] <lullabud> uh... yeah, gdm-2.20 is now considered "legacy"
[01:41] <lullabud> and it's the last version (afaik) that supports xdmcp
[01:41] <lullabud> the newer versions do not support it, and are default in 9.10 and 10.04
[01:41] <twb> Annoying, but as long as Xorg (and xdm) continues to support it, I don't care too much.
[01:42] <twb> I wonder what the LTSP people had to say about it
[01:42] <lullabud> well, that's part of my disappointment... i just did  "grep -ri xdmcp /etc/" and didn't find it in anything xorg related on 10.04
[01:43] <fluvvell> there didn't seem to be much development going on in the ltsp crowd either
[01:44] <fluvvell> but the XDMCP indifference is definitely at Gnome level rather than Ubuntu
[01:45] <twb> RFB is retarded compared to X11.
[01:45] <fluvvell> and it *is* insecure, but what with ssh or ssl surely there is a way to seal any cracks -
[01:45] <twb> It's only when you get insane amounts of layered gradients, like in GTK2 or OpenOffice or xulrunner, that RFB actually starts being faster.
[01:46] <twb> Oh, and bloody client-side font rending
[01:46] <fluvvell> RFB ?
[01:46] <twb> fluvvell: RFB is the protocol that VNC is a thin wrapper on top of.
[01:47] <lullabud> fluvvell: oh, well, it looks like it's dead simple to enable xdmcp server-side stuff in 10.04.  edit /etc/gdm/gdm.schemas, just change "disable" to "enable" and it works....
[01:47] <lullabud> i jsut tested it between OSX and 10.04
[01:47] <twb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFB_protocol
[01:47] <fluvvell> twb, yeah I'm using vnc in a number of cases, and while it solves the immediate problem its not the answer to everything
[01:47] <twb> lullabud: my last OS X host was a glorified X thin client ;-)
[01:47] <twb> fluvvell: RFB is a "lowest common denominator" protocol.
[01:48] <lullabud> twb: yeah, but it was probably the thinnest client ever.
[01:48] <lullabud> :P
[01:48] <lullabud> following after steve job's as the thinnest ceo ever....
[01:48] <lullabud> s/job's/jobs
[01:48] <twb> lullabud: it was a 330MHz bondi blue running 10.2, acting as a remote head for a 3GHz workstation
[01:49] <lullabud> hey, g3's are still useful!
[01:49] <lullabud> now i'm going to have to run out to the curb and get that one that's next to the trash can...
[04:17] <Maletor> I just set up parted (from the expert install of the alternate CD) with a RAID1 with /boot on it and all three drives it mirrors have a bootable flag. And a RAID5 with a lvm on it that contains root filesystem and swap space. Will my kernel be able to find and mount the root filesystem at boot?
[04:17] <twb> Try it and see.
[04:17] <Maletor> I will. I am hoping for the best twb.
[04:18] <Maletor> Finishing install of base system now...
[04:18] <twb> As you were told yesterday, this is the wrong channel for support for desktop ("desktop" and "alternate" CDs) installs.
[04:18] <Maletor> Nobody knows what a LVM on that channel is...
[04:18] <fluvvell> that doesn't surprise me
[04:19] <twb> Well, we *did* suggest you use the server install CD.
[04:20] <Maletor> Right, I will probably have to do that if this fails. Even if I do drop to command line to set up fstab and mdadm, how can I be sure what I am doing is right. I first started with gentoo and followed the docs and got help on IRC and that had a kernel panic where it couldn't find the root partition.
[04:23] <twb> Maletor: I can help you if you go to the debian-installer partition manager (d-i partmgr) step on the server install CD.
[04:23] <twb> And assuming a clean install.
[04:24] <twb> Doing it any other way is more effort than I can be bothered going to on your behalf.
[04:24] <Maletor> I may take you up on that offer twb. I'll let you know how this goes.
[04:34] <sbeattie> Maletor: it should be able to, though there's been some trouble in lucid booting off of lvm+raid.
[04:35] <Maletor> sbeattie: thanks, yes, i've heard lucid is very unstable from pretty much everybody
[04:37] <twb> Until it's released, it is /by definition/ unstable.
[04:37]  * sbeattie eyes his two lucid systems carefully. :-)
[04:37] <qman__> I installed karmic server on a raid 1 with LVM just yesterday
[04:37] <qman__> it was smart enough to figure it out
[04:37] <twb> That's not the same as "buggy"
[04:37] <qman__> which surprised me greatly
[04:37] <qman__> since it's the first time that's ever happened for me
[04:38] <fluvvell> I wouldn't have said it was pretty unstable. but I don't have any of my raid machines running it.
[04:46] <Maletor> hqman__: did you install from server?
[04:46] <Maletor> qman__
[04:50] <qman__> yes
[04:51] <qman__> Maletor, you could always install ubuntu server, then install the ubuntu-desktop package on top
[04:51] <qman__> of course the GUI is not supported here
[04:52] <qman__> but the install process would be
[04:52] <Maletor> Houston, we have lift off.
[04:52] <Maletor> Let me just verify the RAID and LVM and I will be ecstatic.
[04:53] <qman__> cat /proc/mdstat
[04:54] <Maletor> And what is the command 'dh -i' for where filesystems are mounted?
[04:54] <qman__> I usually use 'mount' to do that
[04:55] <qman__> and df -h to check filesystem usage
[04:55] <Maletor> Yup, everything is working magically. This is fantastic.
[04:58] <Maletor> lvextend works too. This is sweet. Thank you everybody.
[05:00] <twb> OK, I have a host here with three rtl8169's in it.  mii-tool can't tell me which one is connected, because apparently the driver doesn't support that ioctl.
[05:00] <twb> How can I non-destructively determine which NIC has a cable plugged in (so I can label the NICs with eth0 through eth2)?
[05:01] <twb> Hmm, I suppose worst case is I can connect it to another host (instead of just a switch), and stick pings over a transiently-static configuration.
[05:01] <qman__> twb, mii-tool works for me on rtl8169s
[05:02] <qman__> those are what I mostly use, since they're a great way to go gigabit for about 15 bucks
[05:07] <maxagaz> is there a way to check which computers are connected to samba ?
[05:08] <qman__> maxagaz, I'm sure it could be done with netstat, though there may be a higher level tool for it
[05:08] <cmeiklejohn> maxagaz: smbstatus maybe?
[06:55] <eagles0513875> hey guys im having issues with vi over ssh
[06:55] <twb> eagles0513875: expand.
[06:56] <eagles0513875> twb: basically work in vi then all of a sudden it feels like it freezes
[06:56] <twb> eagles0513875: you're hitting ^S.  Type ^Q to fix it.
[06:56] <eagles0513875> im not hitting annything
[06:56] <eagles0513875> this is while typeing lets say some programming in c++
[06:56] <twb> OK, what kind of line speed are we talking?
[06:57] <eagles0513875> lan
[06:57] <eagles0513875> 100mbps
[06:57] <eagles0513875> server nic being gigabit
[06:57] <eagles0513875> and desktop im on gigabit as well
[06:57] <eagles0513875> what even stranger it only happens with vi
[06:57] <twb> OK, check the load average and the iowait on the remote host.
[06:58] <eagles0513875> atm i have no load on it
[06:58] <eagles0513875> im the only one who has access to it
[06:58] <eagles0513875> if i use nano this doesnt happen
[06:58] <twb> Talk to #vim, then.
[06:59] <eagles0513875> twb: could it be an issue with ssh
[06:59] <eagles0513875> cuz it seems from what i can tell by the ssh program im using it ends up one way the connection
[06:59] <eagles0513875> the server is getting input just not sending back output
[07:00] <twb> How did you determine this?
[07:00] <eagles0513875> im using xshell ssh program on windows and it has arrows to show input to the remote machine and whats getting sent back out to said client
[07:02] <twb> Just because your client receives nothing doesn't mean the server isn't sending anything.
[07:02] <twb> If you kicked out the cable, you'd see the same behaviour.
[07:02] <eagles0513875> i havent been anywhere near them
[07:03] <twb> Ask dmesg if the link has been bouncing lately
[07:04] <qman__> I get that kind of behavior when I have a poor wireless signal
[07:04] <qman__> moving my laptop to get a better signal fixes it
[07:04] <qman__> but, on a LAN
[07:04] <qman__> it would have to be bad cables or faulty hardware
[07:04] <twb> qman__: or something like NM playing silly-buggers
[07:04] <qman__> or some bizarre software issue
[07:08] <twb> Ah, xshell apparently proprietary crap.
[07:08] <eagles0513875> twb: and qman__what doesnt make sense though is why does it only do this on vi and not anythign else like nano
[07:08] <eagles0513875> twb: i like it so i can consolidate all ssh connections into one program with multiple tabs
[07:11] <twb> I presume there are extraneous factors that prevent you simply running Ubuntu on your workstation
[07:11] <eagles0513875> twb: said desktop is windows said machine in question is nix
[07:12] <eagles0513875> bah got no help in vim
[07:12] <eagles0513875> random thought
[07:12] <eagles0513875> since im on 64bit ubuntu server should i install ia32libs to be save
[07:12] <twb> I think you're misdiagnosing the symptoms, and I'm still waiting for the results of the diagnostics I asked you for.
[07:15] <eagles0513875> twb: not showing anythign out of the ordinary in dmesg and syslog
[07:15] <twb> Can you reproduce the symptoms on demand?
[07:15] <eagles0513875> twb: i can reproducd them yes just have to work with vi for a few
[07:16] <twb> Can the server address your Windows desktop directly (i.e. no NAT)?
[07:17] <eagles0513875> im using static ips on both  and yes it can
[07:17] <twb> On the server, run "mtr <workstation IP>", and hit d once.
[07:18] <twb> You should see horizontal line(s) of "." crossing the screen.
[07:18] <twb> When there is no network, it'll print a ? instead of a .
[07:18] <eagles0513875> didnt do anything like that
[07:18] <eagles0513875> it just brought up an empty traceroute
[07:19] <twb> You need to hit "d"
[07:19] <eagles0513875> i did
[07:19] <eagles0513875> i have some latency values
[07:20] <twb> eagles0513875: you should have at least one line in the table, starting with "1. <host name or ip>"
[07:20] <eagles0513875> going to take a few need to hook up my monitor directly to the server
[07:20] <twb> Whatever
[07:21] <qman__> twb, I get nothing of the sort doing that
[07:21] <eagles0513875> twb: if im doing it via ssh its not givine me an ip but latency values
[07:22] <twb> It should look like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/406887/
[07:22] <qman__> yeah, it doesn't look like that
[07:22] <eagles0513875> im not getting anythign of that sort either
[07:22] <twb> ...except with fewer entries, because there aren't any hops on your LAN
[07:22] <qman__> also, that's what page it opens to
[07:22] <qman__> but I don't get anything at all in the list
[07:22] <eagles0513875> me neither
[07:23] <twb> Try mtr <IP_ADDRESS>
[07:23] <qman__> that works as expected
[07:23] <twb> Or even "mtr <IP_ADDRESS>" should have at least one entry
[07:24] <qman__> ah, working now
[07:25] <twb> I don't know why it isn't/wasn't working for you.
[07:25] <eagles0513875> <IP_ADDRESS> and lo device both have something for me
[07:25] <qman__> I don't either
[07:25] <twb> You could try mtr -n <IP>, if it's a DNS issue
[07:25] <qman__> maybe something wrong with the client IP I was using
[07:25] <eagles0513875> when you say workstation ip do you mean teh host or destination
[07:25] <eagles0513875> taht you are on
[07:25] <twb> eagles0513875: AFAIK you have two hosts, a workstation (running xshell) and a server (running sshd and vim).
[07:26] <twb> On the server, run "mtr -n <workstation's IP>'
[07:26] <eagles0513875> ok
[07:26] <eagles0513875> nothing still
[07:27] <twb> Then your network's totally buggered, and you need to make that work.
[07:28] <eagles0513875> :-/
[07:28] <twb> eagles0513875: are you the network admin, there?
[07:28] <eagles0513875> its a small home network
[07:28] <eagles0513875> lol only one in this family who understands in computers
[07:29] <eagles0513875> wait a min
[07:29] <eagles0513875> could me having bind installed but not configured be the issue here
[07:29] <eagles0513875> at least to networking
[07:29] <qman__> not really
[07:29] <eagles0513875> cuz i tried to ping my current machine im on from server and it wasnt resolving
[07:30] <qman__> it would have an effect but by IP things should still work
[07:30] <eagles0513875> super high latency more like it
[07:30] <qman__> well, there you go
[07:30] <eagles0513875> found the answer
[07:30] <qman__> find out what's causing the latency and fix/replace it
[07:30] <eagles0513875> restarted networking
[07:30] <eagles0513875> and its fine
[07:30] <eagles0513875> so its a bug in networking somewhere in ubuntu server
[07:31] <twb> qman__: it wouldn't surprise me if he has an appliance router or switch, and it got confused after a power outage.
[07:31] <eagles0513875> no power outages here though twb
[07:31] <eagles0513875> im on a linksys
[07:31] <qman__> yeah, I've had that happen before, as well as them burn up
[07:31] <twb> Stupid cheapo switches...
[07:31] <eagles0513875> qman__: think im goign to buy a new one cuz this one is starting to piss me off
[07:32] <qman__> I use a PC running ubuntu server with 4 NICs in it as my router
[07:32] <twb> Real Soon Now manglement will turf them and actually fix the wall points, so that we can just use the UPS-backed switch in the rack.
[07:32] <qman__> but I have a somewhat complex network
[07:32] <twb> Oh yeah, and replace the battery in the UPS :-/
[07:32] <qman__> heh, yeah
[07:32] <qman__> UPS makes all the difference, even without power actually going out
[07:33] <qman__> everything just works happier
[07:33]  * twb hits manglement with a trout
[07:34]  * eagles0513875 tries vi again
[07:35] <eagles0513875> not happening again
[07:36] <eagles0513875> seems like its a bug in ubuntu networking
[07:36] <maxagaz> cmeiklejohn, yes smbstatus!
[07:36] <maxagaz> cmeiklejohn, thanks
[07:37] <qman__> eagles0513875, a hardware problem is far more likely
[07:37] <eagles0513875> qman__: this server is brand new
[07:37] <eagles0513875> qman__: as it only does this with vi and no other editor
[07:37] <qman__> cables, your linksys
[07:37] <qman__> that stuff does get flakey sometimes
[07:37] <eagles0513875> qman__: true
[07:37] <eagles0513875> qman__: after resetting networkign on ubuntu its fine and happy
[07:38] <qman__> could also be a problem with the NIC driver
[07:38] <qman__> or if you've got networkmanager running
[07:38] <qman__> which you shouldn't, networkmanager just causes problems
[07:38] <eagles0513875> trust me i know
[07:38] <eagles0513875> about nm
[07:39] <eagles0513875> im nothing but commandline on my server
[07:39] <eagles0513875> tbh kinda prefer it
[07:39] <eagles0513875> the nic's are both broadcom nics
[07:39] <eagles0513875> one is a pcie nic the other is a normal nic both gigabit
[07:39] <qman__> what do you mean by "normal"
[07:40] <twb> NM is a headless daemon.
[07:41] <eagles0513875> qman__: normal pci nic im guessing and the other uses the pcie bus
[07:41] <eagles0513875> it did it again
[07:41] <eagles0513875> froze or lost connection
[07:51]  * eagles0513875 will have to try ssh via my macbook to soee if same issue with vi locking up occurs
[08:08] <jeffesquivel> wow... incredible how some people pay up to $3 700 for having RHEL pre-installed on their servers
[08:08] <jeffesquivel> I wonder if they come with something beside installation and upgrades
[08:12] <_ruben> support probably
[08:18] <jeffesquivel> _ruben, right... forgot about that one, he he
[09:11] <sebsebseb_> hi
[09:17] <jeffesquivel> sebsebseb_, hi
[09:25] <kaushal> hi
[09:27] <kaushal> model name : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5504  @ 2.00GHz
[09:35] <kaushal> do i need to install amd64 or is there a x86_64 hardy image ?
[09:35] <Jeeves_> amd64 will do
[09:38] <kaushal> Jeeves_: Thanks
[09:39] <kaushal> so there is only i386 and amd64 image only ?
[09:40] <Jeeves_> afaik, yes
[09:44] <_ruben> amd64 == x86_64
[09:45] <_ruben> as in: the amd64 install media install a x86_64 kernel
[11:39] <alvin> How would you determine the ftp software on a server if you are sitting at the client. Is it even possible?
[11:39] <nimrod10> alvin, if you telnet to it, it should say the software and version
[11:39] <alvin> nimrod10: Thanks!
[11:43] <alkisg> Hi, I want to restrict access to the nbdrootd service to local networks only. Is the following correct?
[11:43] <alkisg> a) in hosts.deny, put: nbdrootd: ALL
[11:43] <alkisg> b) in hosts.allow, put: nbdrootd: 127., 10., 192.168., 172.16.-172.31.: keepalive
[12:42] <obea> how to dpkg use wildcard character
[12:47] <obea> dpkg -l mysql* ?
[12:50] <guntbert> obea: never tried but *if* it works then you should put quotes around the pattern to hide the * from the shell
[13:06] <obea> yeah dpkg -l ¡®*mysql*'    thx!
[13:06] <obea>  ;)
[13:45] <thefish> can anyone comment on mdadm using "raw" disks (/dev/sdx), or partitions (/dev/sdx1) and which is better and why?
[13:48] <proppy> Hi, is it possible to setup an ubuntu entreprise cloud across multiple data center ?
[13:49] <ttx> proppy: it is possible to setup separate "clusters" (availability zones), but they will depend on the same "Cloud controller" front-end.
[13:50] <proppy> ttx: is LAN connection required between all the "clusters", and the "controller" ?
[13:51] <ttx> proppy: yes. Otherwise you should install two separate "clouds"
[13:51] <ttx> well, not LAN connection
[13:51] <ttx> can be WAn
[13:52] <ttx> the cluster controller and the cloud controller need to be able to talk to each other, but not necessarily on the same network.
[13:53] <proppy> one "cluster" = one "physical host" ?
[13:54] <proppy> one "cloud" = multiple "physical host" on the same network ?
[13:54] <ttx> no, a cluster is made of a cluster controller, a storage controller, and one or more node controller
[13:54] <proppy> oh ok, "node controller" = one "physical host"
[13:55] <ttx> node controller is one physical host running lots of VMs, yes.
[13:55] <proppy> so we can have a "cluster" in house
[13:55] <proppy> another in running on a dedicated server
[13:55] <proppy> and having them part of the same "cloud"
[13:56] <proppy> given that each cluster controller is able to talk to the cloud controller
[13:56] <proppy> is it possible to provision image on multiple clusters ?
[14:02] <alvin> thefish: I have no idea, but the Debian installer uses partitions if you set up md devices during install
[14:03] <thefish> alvin: cheers, ubu does the same
[14:03] <thefish> but ive set up raid6 here on raw devs
[14:03] <thefish> i cant think why that would be bad
[14:03] <alvin> thefish: I meant Ubuntu actually. Ubuntu uses the Debian installer. (unmodified?)
[14:03] <alvin> me neither. Go ahead
[14:04] <thefish> if mdadm scans /proc/partitions it sees both
[14:04] <alvin> If I set up LVM, I also use raw devices. (Same for ZFS)
[14:04] <proppy> ttx: thanks for all these informations
[14:04] <thefish> im going to stick to the debian method, im sure theres something they know that i dont
[14:04] <thefish> ye ill be using lvm on top of this md
[14:05] <ttx> proppy: yes, the image registered in one "cloud" should be available to all "clusters"
[14:05] <alvin> For ZFS, it is recommended to use raw devices, but I'm pretty sure the reason for that is not valid for mdadm.
[14:10] <proppy> ttx: is there some kind of synchronisation available for the multiple storage controller, across the cloud
[14:11] <proppy> for EBS-like storage
[14:11] <ttx> proppy: I think multiple SCs will sync, but I'm not exactly sure, sounds like a question for #eucalyptus
[14:11] <proppy> ttx: yes, I will ask there, thanks a lot for your help
[14:11] <ttx> proppy: np
[14:19] <obea> ¡° /usr/sbin/dpkg-reconfigure: uptrack is broken or not fully installed
[15:15] <proppy> Hi, does uec support non-VT hardware throught Xen or Qemu/kqemu ?
[15:18] <Omahn> proppy: Kirkland should be able to give a conclusive answer but I believe the reponse will be no as UEC uses KVM.
[15:19] <sherr> the fish: re: MD on top of raw partitions. According to Steven Ellis at Linux.conf.au 2010 :
[15:19] <sherr> http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/linux.conf.au/2010/tuesday/index.html
[15:20] <sherr> They are not so good - makes it harder to move disks to another system (backup/recovery). A single partition takes a very small amount of space and is more compatitible with the tools.
[15:20] <sherr> Even : thefish :-)
[15:20] <thefish> sherr: ok ta
[15:20] <thefish> sherr: same for lvm?
[15:21] <sherr> thefish: I use LVM over MD over partitions. Works well.
[15:22] <thefish> sherr: so just pv on eg /dev/md0 ?
[15:27] <RoyK^> hi. solaris has a command, pstack, to see the stack from a coredump - any idea if linux has something similar? the pstack available in ubuntu doesn't show this
[15:27] <sherr> thefish: yes, that's right.
[15:28] <thefish> cool, thanks sherr - thats what ive usually done
[15:46] <kirkland> proppy: Omahn: well ....  i suppose it kinda does support non-accel QEMU, as UEC just runs "kvm", which by default, if no VT hardware is present, it just disables kvm-acceleration and runs in godawful-slow mode
[15:47] <kirkland> proppy: Omahn: as to the other points, upstream Eucalyptus supports Xen, I believe, but Xen in Ubuntu is universe-supported, and very much untested with UEC
[15:47] <kirkland> proppy: Omahn: and kqemu doesn't exist anymore, sorry.
[16:13] <hggdh> ttx: a bit of PM?
[16:15] <alvin> Why is this command not working?
[16:15] <alvin> $ sudo qemu-img -c -O qcow2 disk-raw.img disk.img
[16:15] <alvin> Oh,... I know
[16:16] <alvin> (Sorry to bother. The 'convert' part was missing)
[16:21] <ttx> hggdh: just a sec
[16:26] <ihernandez> hello. i have a server that now is a NX server for several clients on the office
[16:26] <ihernandez> now i want just to export /home with nfs and use some kind of Network Authentication for account
[16:27] <ihernandez> the nfs export goes fine... but when it comes to the central network authentication thing i don't know really which tool plays what role. OpenLDAP, Kerberos...
[16:28]  * zul dislikes dentists
[16:31] <alvin> ihernandez: I'm also interested in that. Let us know if you find documentation that works with Ubuntu
[16:33] <ihernandez> alvin, i have been told by a user on #ubuntu that with ldap + nfs all users can login from all machines and have they data
[16:33] <ihernandez> the nfs docs on ubuntu site are great, and they work pretty well
[16:33] <alvin> Yes, they should.
[16:33] <ihernandez> https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/serverguide/C/network-file-system.html
[16:33] <ivoks> VMBuilder.exception.VMBuilderUserError: No such hypervisor. Available hypervisors: vmserver esxi xen kvm vbox vmw6
[16:33] <ivoks> where did qemu go in 10.04? :D
[16:33] <ihernandez> but ldap docs are a nightmare
[16:33] <ivoks> zul: ^^ ?
[16:34] <ivoks> ihernandez: which ldap document is wrong?
[16:34] <ivoks> ihernandez: which version of ubuntu are you using?
[16:34] <Omahn> I'm about to upload a debdiff that (hopefully) resolves an old issue in exim4 in hardy. Once I upload the debdiff should I subscribe ~ubuntu-sponsors to get someone to build the -proposed package?
[16:35] <alvin> There is nothing to find about NFS4+kerberos, and there are bugs filed against the ldap documentation. ldap has split the packaging. For someone without experience, the whole ldap story is very confusing.
[16:35] <ivoks> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/openldap-server.html
[16:35] <ivoks> ldap ^^
[16:36] <alvin> looks better than last time, thanks
[16:36] <alvin> I'll try them out in a few weeks
[16:36] <ivoks> that's for karmic and newer
[16:38] <proppy> Omahn: kirkland: thanks for these informations
[16:38] <ivoks> soren: hi; isn't qemu supported in vmbuilder?
[16:39] <soren> ivoks: Just use kvm.
[16:40] <ivoks> soren: on machines that don't support kvm?
[16:40] <soren> ivoks: The image has no kvm-specific things in them.
[16:40] <ivoks> soren: that won't work
[16:40] <ivoks> soren: i get:
[16:40] <soren> ivoks: How do you figure that?
[16:40] <ivoks> libvir: Domain Config error : internal error no supported architecture for os type 'hvm'
[16:40] <ivoks> so, image is built
[16:41] <ivoks> and vmbuilder dies on creating xml file
[16:41] <ivoks>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/libvirt.py", line 1119, in defineXML
[16:41] <ivoks>     if ret is None:raise libvirtError('virDomainDefineXML() failed', conn=self)
[16:41] <ivoks> libvirt.libvirtError: internal error no supported architecture for os type 'hvm'
[16:41] <soren> Ah, right, yes, if you try to use the libvirt stuff as well.
[16:41] <soren> ...was that ever supported?
[16:41] <ivoks> i think it worked in 8.04
[16:42] <ivoks> i'm sure qemu, without kvm, worked in 8.04 trough libvirt
[16:42] <soren> ivoks: Feel free to file a bug.
[16:42] <ivoks> soren: ok :)
[16:42] <soren> ivoks: Oh, and it still does.
[16:42] <soren> ivoks: It's purely a VMBuilder issue.
[16:42] <ivoks> that's obvious
[16:42] <ivoks> :)
[16:42] <ihernandez> ivoks, 9.04 on server
[16:43] <ihernandez> ivoks, 9.10 the last docs i checked. the docs are not either right or wrong. they are confusing.
[16:44] <ivoks> ihernandez: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/openldap-server.html
[16:44] <ivoks> ihernandez: that's it :)
[16:46] <ihernandez> ivoks, yes. it's damn confusing!
[16:46] <ihernandez> and as docs don't go further on what are you doing ... it's a mess
[16:46] <RoyK^> 10.04 should be out soon...
[16:47] <ivoks> ihernandez: book a course
[16:47] <sherr> ihernandez: There are a few options available you e.g. OpenLDAP, LDAP-other, NIS etc.
[16:48] <sherr> ihernandez: IRC is hard to do support/training on sometimes.
[16:48] <sherr> Google has lots and lots of resources on authentication. Some very well writen.
[16:48] <ihernandez> sherr, i did google a lot, of course.
[16:48] <ihernandez> sherr, but most points to the ubuntu documentations
[16:49] <ihernandez> i will have to read just NIS howto
[16:49] <ihernandez> and more general resources
[16:49] <sherr> ihernandez: NIS is less recommended (and insecure) but fairly easy to set up.
[16:49] <ihernandez> as there is no straightforward howto to setup network authentication
[16:50] <ihernandez> sherr, yes. i know . that's the reason i'm trying to set ldap
[16:50] <sherr> ihernandez: "setup network authentication" is a large book ... :-)
[16:50] <sherr> Have a look at Apache's Directory - seems to look good, has a GUI front-end etc.
[16:50] <ihernandez> i'm just complaining about... let's say... very common tasks requiring large books
[16:50] <ihernandez> i will :)
[16:50] <ihernandez> thanks
[16:50] <ivoks> ihernandez: ubuntu training provides excellent courses
[16:51] <ihernandez> ivoks, online?
[16:51] <ivoks> ihernandez: there's ubuntu server course that will explain you everything
[16:51] <ivoks> ihernandez: yes, even on line
[16:51] <ihernandez> sorry, wronk shortcut
[16:52] <sherr> ihernandez: It's hard doing docs, support, training, etc. You have to search hard sometimes. But there are decent docs around. Sometimes in more than one document though ...
[16:52] <ihernandez> go for lunch! be bacl!
[16:52] <ihernandez> back : )
[16:53] <sherr> http://directory.apache.org/ (it is Java however)
[16:54] <\sh> sherr, the gui frontend is an eclipse plugin ;)
[16:55] <ivoks> yeah, and it rocks
[16:55] <ttx> ivoks: I have two papercuts bugs left for you, just in case you can work on them
[16:55] <ttx> (or invalidate them if they are not simply-fixed papercuts)
[16:55] <ivoks> ttx: sure; i'm finishing my work in UK today, so i'll have time starting tomorrow
[16:56] <ttx> bug 321091 and bug 552622
[16:56] <ttx> ivoks: get up early while it's still wednesday somewhere :)
[16:56] <ivoks> huh? why?
[16:56] <ivoks> another deadline? :D
[16:59] <ttx> hggdh: I'm ready now
[16:59] <ttx> ivoks: beta2freeze :)
[16:59] <ivoks> argh...
[17:06] <RoAkSoAx> ivoks, we need to get the cluster packages too :)
[17:06]  * ivoks will move to RedHat
[17:07] <ivoks> a lot less releases; more time to do some work :D
[17:07] <RoAkSoAx> lol
[17:07] <ivoks> ok, so... i'll stay awake this night
[17:07] <ivoks> and try to get this all done
[17:08] <RoAkSoAx> lol
[17:08] <mdeslaur> zul: bug 552636
[17:08] <RoAkSoAx> i'll be back in an hour to start testing
[17:08] <ivoks> and i expect to see pacemaker in main, as a reward for all this work :D
[17:08] <zul> mdeslaur: thanks
[17:08] <ivoks> ok
[17:08] <ivoks> another thing to work on
[17:09] <ivoks> sometimes i feel like only packages that fall apart are those that i'm working on :/
[17:09] <ivoks> i'm a jinx
[17:09] <RoAkSoAx> ivoks, haha pacemaker is now 1.0.8
[17:30] <zul> mdeslaur: ill take a look at it this afternoon/tomorrow
[17:34] <Xbert> is there anyway to update more than one installation/server at a time?
[17:35] <RoyK^> Xbert: landscape :þ
[17:35] <Xbert> anyway to do it without landscape
[17:35] <RoyK^> Xbert: I don't know any open source systems for it, though. if you find one, let me know :)
[17:36] <Xbert> atm I do it with and SSH script but its really messey and I have to enter the root password around 8 tmes
[17:37] <RoyK^> use ssh keys
[17:38] <Xbert> ssh keys are only used to login not for sudo commands
[17:38] <RoyK^> visudo - set NOPASSWD
[17:38] <Xbert> it that safe?
[17:38] <Xbert> is*
[17:38] <RoyK^> or just sudo ./myscript
[17:38] <RoyK^> it's safe so long noone gets your password
[17:39] <RoyK^> but then, if someone gets your password, they can sudo in anyway
[17:40] <Xbert> I cant sudo the script it does not pass sudo to the remote machine, that would just run the script  on my local machine with root priv
[17:40] <RoyK^> but again, if you leave your terminal open and you have NOPASSWD set, you have a problem
[17:40] <Xbert> that what I mean having no sudo password is a bad idea on 8 servers
[17:41] <RoyK^> ssh server sudo /run/this/script.sh
[17:41] <RoyK^> but then, without NOPASSWD you'll have to type your password for each server
[17:41] <Xbert> the problem is not really entering the password 8 time but I have to remember 8 password as each server has it own pasword
[17:42] <Xbert> I guess landscape is the only way
[17:42] <RoyK^> erm - your user account has different passwords on each server?
[17:42] <Xbert> the sudo users does
[17:42] <RoyK^> sudo uses your password, not the root password
[17:42] <Xbert> sudo uses the password of anyone in the sudo group
[17:42] <RoyK^> why don't you allow your own account sudo access?
[17:42] <RoyK^> that's the whole point of sudo
[17:42] <RoyK^> no common password
[17:43] <Xbert> I do but I have 8 different passwords, one for each server
[17:43] <RoyK^> why?
[17:43] <Xbert> I cant have them the same incase I have to get the password to somewhere to do something for me
[17:43] <Xbert> give*
[17:43] <RoyK^> using sudo correctly you never have to give your password away
[17:44] <RoyK^> just allow a user to do this and that as another user
[17:44]  * RoyK^ NEVER gives his password away
[17:45] <Xbert> then point is I cant have any passwords the same on any system as it is policy
[17:45] <RoyK^> erm
[17:45] <RoyK^> why aren't you using a central password database?
[17:45] <RoyK^> like ldap or even nis?
[17:45] <Xbert> if i'm ill or something at least this way i can give someone 1 password then change it later, the worst they can do then is mess only 1 server up
[17:46] <Xbert> they are 8 server for different companies
[17:46] <Xbert> they all have different users
[17:46] <Xbert> I admin them all
[17:46] <RoyK^> well, NOPASSWD won't hurt
[17:47] <RoyK^> or setup cron-apt or something and let the systems do the updates themselves
[17:47] <Xbert> I can't have an account with no password, so a sudo with no password would loose me my job in about 10sec
[17:48] <Xbert> I think when we do the upgrade to the OSs I'll have to change to a real enterprise linux
[17:49] <RoyK^> heh - you use ssh keys to get in and then nopasswd with sudo to login as root. nobody can get in unless they have your password for your computer
[17:49] <Xbert> yeah but if anyone see that I have an account with no password I'll get fired
[17:49] <RoyK^> or $150 per server per year for landscape
[17:49] <RoyK^> you can't do all with landscape, though
[17:50] <RoyK^> "real" enterprise linux?
[17:50] <RoyK^> like redhat?
[17:50] <RoyK^> ubuntu is just as "enterprise" as redhat is
[17:50] <RoyK^> and if you can afford redhat, you can afford landscape
[17:50] <RoyK^> it's not an account with no password
[17:50] <Xbert> ubuntu server lacks many things redhat have
[17:50] <RoyK^> give me an example, please
[17:50] <Xbert> I like ubuntu very much, but lately I've been think it just not enterpise ready
[17:51] <Xbert> well push update
[17:51] <RoyK^> landscape?
[17:51] <Xbert> that would increase the cost of the servers
[17:51] <alvin> I'm with Xbert on that one. I like Ubuntu far more than RedHat, but RedHat is more stable (at least for the things I need)
[17:52] <RoyK^> it costs less than redhat and works well with our system with some 30 ubuntu boxes
[17:52] <Xbert> the reason we use linux is cost
[17:52] <Xbert> yeah but we have redhat support already
[17:52] <RoyK^> Xbert: redhat costs more than a landscape subscribtion
[17:52] <RoyK^> per server
[17:52] <RoyK^> alvin: more stable ?????
[17:52] <Hypnoz> I think even if linux cost as much as windows, we'd still use linux
[17:52] <Xbert> but that is another cost on top of that
[17:53] <alvin> RoyK^: Absolutey. Do you want examples?
[17:53] <RoyK^> please
[17:53] <Xbert> upstart for a start, that is so buggy
[17:53] <alvin> give me a moment. I have written them down
[17:53] <alvin> yes, upstart is the worst by far
[17:53] <Xbert> grub 2
[17:53] <Xbert> that quite bad too
[17:53] <RoyK^> Xbert: redhat costs like $350 per server per year, landscape $150, and redhat alone doesn't allow for push updates, for that you need an extra product
[17:54] <Xbert> yeah but we have redhat support already, I look for away to no add more yearly cost
[17:54] <RoyK^> what's so bad about it?
[17:54] <Xbert> grub 2 is a mess
[17:54] <Xbert> it fails to find kernals
[17:54] <Xbert> and is a nightmare to edit manually
[17:56] <RoyK^> for those 30 ubuntu machines we have, I haven't seen such problems. Is that just me?
[17:56] <Xbert> grub 2 should not be called grub, it nothing like grub 1 so much so it shouldnt be a new app altogether
[17:56] <RoyK^> grub2 is not in use on ubuntu LTS
[17:56] <RoyK^> and you should use LTS on servers
[17:57] <Xbert> it included in server 9.10 and 10.4
[17:57] <sherr> Xbert: when you say "update", you mean configuration etc.?
[17:57] <Xbert> package update
[17:57] <RoyK^> 9.10 is not LTS and 10.4 is in beta1
[17:57] <Xbert> they will not remove grub 2 from 10,4
[17:58] <Xbert> not now
[17:58] <Xbert> its a feature they market
[17:58] <RoyK^> 9.10 also doesn't use grub2
[17:59] <RoyK^> not on this server I just checked
[17:59] <sherr> 9.10 does use grub2 - but only on new installs (no prev. grub)
[17:59] <RoyK^> ok
[17:59] <Xbert> I don't want to sound like i don't like ubuntu, I do, alot, its just ot not reasdy for servers, it as ready for the server as fedor is
[17:59] <alvin> RoyK^: I've written a post about it. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2009-December/003574.html Since then, we have taken Canonical support, and I will now start feeding them some of these problems. (Yes, grub2 is buggy. I have servers that sometimes can't find their root device, resulting in 80% failed boots. Other HDD and reinstall does not work. Older Ubuntu does.)
[17:59] <RoyK^> this one was upgraded
[17:59] <sherr> I have avoided grub2 yet - and am glad so far ...
[17:59] <Xbert> yes grub 2 is in server 9.10
[17:59] <Xbert> i have it running right next to me
[18:00] <Xbert> and it will be in 10.4 server too
[18:00] <RoyK^> alvin: that's bad...
[18:00] <Xbert> which is a bad move
[18:00] <RoyK^> perhaps upgrading to 10.4 will have to wait
[18:00] <ScottK> Last I heard Grub 2 was only for new installs
[18:00] <alvin> It's bug 360378
[18:00] <Xbert> no idea why anyone thinks grub to is ready or any good tbh
[18:01] <Xbert> brug 2 *
[18:01] <Xbert> i don't know but yes i have new installs of 9.10 all running grub 2
[18:02] <sherr> 9.10 used grub2 if no previous grub was present ...
[18:02] <Xbert> i upgraded my laptop to 9.10 and i think it still has 1 yes
[18:02] <Xbert> yeah that sounds right
[18:02] <sherr> Debian lets you choose 1 or 2.
[18:02] <alvin> It's not on all servers. That would create an outrage. But I have the error on 4 different servers. I just keep rebooting as workaround.
[18:03] <Xbert> alvin, i have had the same problem 3 time on 1 system in 3 differnet reinstalls
[18:03]  * ScottK didn't have any problems so far.
[18:03] <Xbert> hehe, yeah i did the reboot dance for a while too
[18:03] <alvin> Then please add a 'me too' on Launchpad
[18:04] <Xbert> but then after a kernal upgrade it never found the new kernal and I try for an hour to work out how to manually edit grub2 menu and gave up confused as hell
[18:04] <qman__> the jump to grub2 in 9.10 was premature, but hopefully they will round out the features for 10.04
[18:05] <alvin> The cause of the bug is still unclear, but I'm using LVM on all servers. Could be a combination of grub2+lvm+something else. Anyway, it's nothing beyond a standard install.
[18:05] <Xbert> qman__, the bugs are still there in 10.4 beta 1
[18:05]  * alvin facepalm
[18:05] <Xbert> something like that normally get fixed before beta or never
[18:05] <alvin> In that case, I really have to test the beta some of these days
[18:06] <alvin> I reported it (a duplicate) while Karmic was in RC
[18:06] <Xbert> alvin, I had it on both lvm and no lvm systems
[18:06] <ScottK> Lack of pre-release testing is generally a problem for Ubuntu Server because server people are a lot less willing to run pre-release stuff than Desktop people in general.
[18:06] <alvin> Oh, so it's not lvm then
[18:06] <RoyK^> still
[18:06] <ScottK> So please test.
[18:06] <RoyK^> 8.04 LTS works like a dream
[18:06] <alvin> That could very well be correct
[18:06] <Xbert> ScottK, yeah i get that, I am running 10.4 at home for my servers OS
[18:06] <ScottK> Great.
[18:07] <Xbert> but I really cant see me staying with ubuntu server professionally for a few more years
[18:07] <RoyK^> alvin: and what other version will you be using than an LTS version for servers?
[18:07] <RoyK^> well, use windows
[18:07] <RoyK^> or just get lost
[18:07] <RoyK^> no need for more trolling
[18:07] <Xbert> so why get nasty?
[18:07] <sherr> RoyK^: please keep it civil
[18:08] <Xbert> I'm not, Im expressing my feeling on the matter
[18:08] <alvin> RoyK^: Hey, hardy is LTS, but KVM guests kept crashing. At least that was fixed in Karmic. We had to move
[18:08] <RoyK^> Xbert: have you even tried 8.04 LTS?
[18:08] <qman__> I rather like karmic, I think it's a net gain
[18:08] <qman__> and if they can fix the bugs for 10.04 it'll be nice
[18:08] <Xbert> yeah I have been running ubuntu server for a few years and every version has show stopping bugs for a server
[18:09] <alvin> That's a yes. Tested Hardy, Jaunty and Karmic for weeks. This involved a lot of bug triaging. I don't think I was being counter-productive.
[18:09] <Xbert> I want newer version of samba on a updated OS, not messing with backports and manual installs
[18:10] <sherr> Xbert: What about just removing Grub2 and installing Grub1? Testing that?
[18:11] <Xbert> I cant risk the down time if it goes wrong, and I don't want to take anymore time setting up new servers and hacking on them out of the box
[18:11] <qman__> removing grub2 and installing grub1 on a fresh karmic install is more work than it should be, it's faster to install 9.04 and upgrade
[18:11] <Xbert> I have to have a explainable install procedure, I cant link to some wiki page and say do this, hehe
[18:12] <qman__> I really think it should be an option in the installer
[18:12] <qman__> with grub2 as default
[18:12] <RoyK^> alvin: how does kvm scale, really?
[18:12] <Xbert> qman__,  yes i agree
[18:12] <Xbert> I compare ubuntu server to fedora, it a testing ground atm
[18:13] <alvin> RoyK^: What do you mean by scale?
[18:13] <qman__> I really hate fedora
[18:13] <Xbert> I hope it become more enterprise friendly soon
[18:13]  * RoyK^ pats qman__
[18:13] <qman__> I'd use slackware or BSD over fedora any day
[18:13] <Xbert> qman__, i've never got it running correct on any install i tried, so ubuntu wins the desktop for sure
[18:14] <RoyK^> alvin: does it support guest smp? does it allow for failover to other hosts? how about overhead?
[18:14] <alvin> Oh, it does support guest SMP, and live migration (but that last one is buggy and crashed libvirt. If I'm not mistaken, it's an apparmor thing)
[18:15] <alvin> We want to use it for one physical server, and one spare. The server will run about 8 virtual machines.  A long time ago - but it is a very important dist.
[18:16] <sbeattie> alvin: did you file a bug on the live migration crashing libvirt?
[18:16] <Xbert> sherr, agreed
[18:16] <alvin> sbeattie: There is one
[18:17] <RoyK^> it's be nice to see a fancy gui fronting kvm
[18:17] <sbeattie> alvin: okay. jdstrand has been pretty good about trying to fix up any issues like that.
[18:17] <Xbert> has anyone even tried to edit a grub 2 menu?
[18:18] <sherr> Xbert: I haven't - but reading, it appears straightforward
[18:18] <alvin> sbeattie: It's very well possible it's fixed. I just don't like testing those things on production machines. I'm currently preparing some test machines.
[18:18] <sherr> Xbert: I don';t like config in /etc - prefer /boot
[18:18] <qman__> changing any grub2 configuration is a real trip
[18:18] <Xbert> I'm confused to even why they changed from 1, I see no reason to change
[18:18] <RoyK^> sherr: does it really matter where the config lies?
[18:18] <qman__> it 'just works' a lot better than grub1 could
[18:18] <qman__> but you're SOL if you need something custom
[18:19] <Xbert> sherr, I'll have to re-read the doc on it, I was confused as hell
[18:19] <sherr> Xbert: If I have >2 OS's to boot, I forget which one has the config for Grub. I have to boot into it to edit it or keep them sync'd?
[18:19] <RoyK^> erm
[18:19] <RoyK^> yes
[18:19] <sherr> I can more easily share /boot
[18:19] <alvin> sbeattie: Got it, bug 461528 it's fixed by jdstrand. Now I really have to try this again.
[18:19] <Xbert> I just wanted to add some switch to the kernal, I could make the changes stay
[18:20] <Xbert> couldnt
[18:20] <sherr> Mind you, maybe I am not the target audience and the plain fact is - Grub1 is unmaintained. Grub2 will get better.
[18:20] <Xbert> I assumed the install that installed grub had the configs
[18:20] <sbeattie> alvin: cool, it'd be great when you get a chance (and test machines set up again) to give it a go again. Thanks!
[18:21] <RoyK^> sherr: heh - then better stay at grub1 until grub2 is fixed :D
[18:21] <Xbert> grub 1 is unmaintained really?
[18:22] <RoyK^> perhaps it doesn't need much maintenance :)
[18:22] <alvin> No, it says here it's in main
[18:22] <Xbert> why are they still updates being released for grub then?
[18:24] <sherr> Xbert: I recall readng that it is not going to be developed further - no develpers want to work on it. Moved to Grub2.
[18:24] <sherr> Maybe still getting some updates e.g. security
[18:25] <Xbert> yeah I guess, grub 2 seems like a big jump for a distro at this point tho, but I guess the more uses it gets the better it gets, just never fast enough
[18:28]  * RoyK^ is sceptical
[18:49] <metalf8801> can I become root after I open nano? because I forgot to type sudo nano I just typed nano
[18:50] <ScottK> No
[18:50] <_ruben> safe the file in a place you do have write rights, then sudo mv it to the proper place
[18:50] <_ruben> s/safe/save/
[18:50] <metalf8801> ok thank you I'll do that :)
[18:53] <Caspa> does ubuntu server have gui
[18:53] <metalf8801> Caspa no
[18:53] <Caspa> awesome
[18:53] <metalf8801> but you can add a web gui like landscape
[18:54] <metalf8801> or webmin which is free
[18:54] <tyska> hello
[18:54] <tyska> someone know UEC well?
[18:54] <metalf8801> landscape isn't free
[18:56] <metalf8801> what is UEC?
[18:56] <tyska> Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud
[18:56] <qman__> !webmin
[18:57] <metalf8801> ubottu your kidding :( when did that happen?
[18:57] <qman__> metalf8801, webmin has been unsupported since about 6.10
[18:57] <qman__> very long time
[18:58] <metalf8801> I have it running on Ubuntu server 9.04
[18:58] <sherr> metalf8801: people here seem to point people to ebox
[18:58] <sherr> Looks quite good for web server config and admin (Ubuntu based I think)
[18:58] <metalf8801> I just had to add the webmin ppa
[19:00] <metalf8801> I guess I should give ebox another try or pay for landscape but sins I'm just using it at home right now its hard to justify the cost
[19:00] <Xbert> there is a ppa for webmin?
[19:00] <qman__> I just use SSH
[19:00] <qman__> solves the problem
[19:01] <Xbert> i just untared the tar and ran ./install.sh
[19:01] <Xbert> webmin allow you to update from the GUI
[19:01] <alvin> lol @ubottu
[19:02] <qman__> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -y
[19:02] <qman__> pretty simple
[19:03] <alvin> (next, he'll tell you that XDMCp is unsupported as well, and that we should use some experimental form of RDP)
[19:03] <qman__> let's test that theory
[19:03] <qman__> !xdmcp
[19:04] <alvin> Last revision 2007, but so farm so good. We're still safe.
[19:04] <qman__> interesting that it doesn't link to an ubuntu doc
[19:04] <qman__> 7.04
[19:04] <qman__> pretty outdated
[19:05] <qman__> no way it'll work for current releases
[19:05] <qman__> everything has changed
[19:06] <alvin> Actually, I was half serious. I'm using Kubuntu as clients, so I'm not affected, but Ubuntu has lost support for choosing an XDMCP session in GDM. There are other methods of course. XDMCP is still working and TLDP can even be clustered these days. (Another thing I really have to try)
[19:07] <qman__> ah, so it's a change in GDM
[19:07] <alvin> Yes, not X
[19:07] <qman__> I remember trying to set it up back on 6.10, but XDMCP wasn't compiled with SSH support
[19:07] <qman__> in the package
[19:07] <qman__> I would have had to compile it myself
[19:08] <alvin> What I still like to find out is how we can send those nifty new X transparancy, wobbly, shiny bling over XDMCP
[19:08] <qman__> interesting thought
[19:08] <alvin> Oh, I'm only using it the old-fashioned way. Enable it, connect. No need for addd security on a local network.
[19:09] <qman__> it would require client-side hardware acceleration to be worthwhile
[19:09] <qman__> but does XDMCP run the theme manager server side or client side?
[19:09] <alvin> Off course it would
[19:09] <alvin> Well, server side I think.
[19:09] <alvin> Server as in the traditional sense. Not in the X sense, because that's the other way around.
[19:10] <qman__> yeah
[19:10] <qman__> I have to turn that fancy stuff off anyway though
[19:10] <qman__> for some reason it always memory leaks
[19:10] <alvin> Intel card?
[19:11] <qman__> usually run out of RAM in two weeks
[19:11] <qman__> nvidia
[19:11] <alvin> I'm faster. I only have to start Akonadi for that. Bam, instant out of memory
[19:12] <qman__> hah
[19:12] <qman__> well, transparency is nice, but it's not worth having my desktop crash every 10-14 days
[19:12] <alvin> That's thinking like a Linux user :-) with uptime of x days
[19:15] <alvin> Either I'm becoming old, or I have become more experienced finding bugs, or Ubuntu is too bleeding edge. I've been asking myself that question for about a year now.
[19:16] <alvin> For the record, it's probably not Ubuntu.
[19:17] <qman__> I'm a bit old fashioned, don't know what I'm going to do about my desktop for 10.04
[19:17] <qman__> really don't like all this "2.0" UI mentality
[19:19] <alvin> If only it where that simple. Upstart, grub2, Akonadi,... they all bring very interesting features and even solutions for long standing problems. It's only the instability that is very irritating. I'm beginning to feel like a Windows user.
[19:20] <qman__> at least those changes have good reason and improvements to come
[19:20] <qman__> I like the faster boot times upstart gives
[19:20] <alvin> Yes, one day we'll be very happy with them
[19:21] <alvin> Also, no troubles with ordering scripts. (And yet, that is the main problem of upstart now)
[19:27] <jeffesquivel> hi... anyone knows where I can find documentation to create a local Ubuntu One/Dropbox ?
[19:28] <ScottK> jeffesquivel: The Ubuntu One server code is not open source
[19:28] <jeffesquivel> ScottK, I know...
[19:28] <jeffesquivel> ScottK, I want to implement something like it using other tools
[19:29] <jeffesquivel> ScottK, the thing is that I have several computers I would like to keep in sync, but they have a lot of files... it would be painful to do it through the Internet... I really prefer doing it on my LAN
[19:29] <alvin> A real-time rsync?
[19:29] <jeffesquivel> alvin, yeah, something like that
[19:29] <jeffesquivel> I read about unison
[19:29] <jeffesquivel> but as far as I can tell it is not real-time either
[19:29] <alvin> Tricky. It sounds like you could use a fileserver
[19:29] <ScottK> It's not real time
[19:29] <jeffesquivel> alvin, yep, I do have a file server
[19:29] <zroysch>  2776 root      20   0  419m 102m  19m R   94  5.2  86:12.11 Xorg
[19:29] <jeffesquivel> alvin, let me explain
[19:30] <alvin> ok
[19:30] <zroysch> for what reason is Xorg using 94% cpu
[19:30] <jeffesquivel> alvin, I have several desktops and a laptop and a netbook
[19:30] <alvin> I'd say: Intel drivers, or those shiny effects we were talking about :-)
[19:30] <jeffesquivel> alvin, I would like to be able to work on any of them and, for example, download some music or some important document
[19:30] <jeffesquivel> alvin, and then, that info should be sync to the others once they are available
[19:31] <jeffesquivel> alvin, that way if I take the netbook or the laptop on the road
[19:31] <jeffesquivel> alvin, I still can get to my music and stuff (because I have a local copy)
[19:31] <alvin> Ah, but there is an old method fot that. Maybe not perfect, but we'll get to that.
[19:31] <jeffesquivel> alvin, I know about VPN... but internet connection is not always possible or extremely slow
[19:32] <alvin> For local use, you can use share /home on NFS. For the notebook, rsync (or unison - it is used for things like that)
[19:33] <alvin> I'm using dropbox for some things, and rsync for the rest. (And also shares /home at home)
[19:33] <jeffesquivel> alvin, hmm... yeah, what I would have to do is run rsync periodically... which is what I thought... but wanted to know if someone knew of a better way to do it (something that synced immediately, like dropbox, he he)
[19:34] <jeffesquivel> alvin, one other question... why do you prefer NFS over any of the other networked FS?
[19:34] <alvin> jeffesquivel: Simple. It's the default Unix/Linux method for sharing
[19:36] <alvin> Let's see what ubottu says about it. If it says 'samba' I'll scream.
[19:36] <alvin> !NFS
[19:36] <jeffesquivel> alvin, ok... I've read that NFS can sometimes give you issues with lock files or something like that... (I remember reading "NFS safe" as a feature for some apps)... have you ever have any problem with something like it?
[19:36] <alvin> ok, network file system. We're safe
[19:36] <zroysch> how do i make Xorg stop using 99% CPU and sending my temps over 95C
[19:36] <alvin> Oh, that's true. Especially when using databases (Akonadi...)
[19:36] <alvin> Samba has the same problems. For that reason, there's NFSv4
[19:37] <sherr> jeffesquivel: Never used it but the Tahoe-LAFS filesystem might be worth a look :
[19:37] <sherr> http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe-lafs
[19:37] <alvin> You can put your shared /home on an NFS server and use it with Kubuntu/akonadi
[19:38] <dinger1986> anyone have any suggestions for good solid external drives for backing up to?
[19:39] <zroysch> dinger1986: external drives are the same as internal drives, just with a case around them. are you asking what cases are good?
[19:40] <dinger1986> zroysch: yeh, need ones for backing up servers to
[19:40] <zroysch> does the server have no more room for drives or something
[19:40] <dinger1986> would it be better buying server drives and put them into an external case?
[19:41] <zroysch> I got a cheap solution from sans digital. its a 2 drive enclosure in raid1
[19:41] <dinger1986> the server has space but its for doing backups to which can be taken offsite
[19:41] <zroysch> its usb, so kinda slow
[19:41] <zroysch> but does the job
[19:41] <dinger1986> usb would be fine
[19:42] <jeffesquivel> sherr, seems interesting that tahoe-LAFS
[19:42] <dinger1986> any brand best?
[19:42] <zroysch> i dont use many external drives, but this sans digital has been working for 2-3yrs
[19:42] <alvin> Yes, interesting indeed. But, how do you pronounce it :-)
[19:42] <zroysch> has an interface that tells you when the drives/fans fail etc
[19:42] <zroysch> runs on windows, not sure about linux servers
[19:43] <jeffesquivel> alvin, sherr: have you considered a cluster filesystem? but first, let me check if that makes sense at all ;)
[19:44] <dinger1986> ok thats cool, only issue is im in the uk so will need to check if i can get it over here
[19:44] <alvin> Tahoe-stuff looks interesting, but big. What's the speed of that stuff for local use?
[19:45] <zroysch> if not im sure you can find something comparable. i'd opt for a raid situation so you have 2 copies of the backup at all times, in case one of the drive fails.
[19:45] <zroysch> good luck
[19:46] <alvin> I (well, a company I work for) wanted a spare system. We bought 2 SUN servers and 2 SANs. A commercial application (PresStore) is doing the sync. (not real-time) You can easily do things like that with open source I think.
[19:47] <alvin> Isn't a cluster file system over the top to keep a notebook in sync?
[19:48] <jeffesquivel> alvin, I don't know... may be... but still would like to at least research the possibility... :-)
[19:48] <alvin> jeffesquivel: If you do, post your story on Slashdot
[19:49] <jeffesquivel> jeffesquivel, he he... I haven't read /. for years now...
[19:49] <alvin> I have met people from a company that made backups by breaking RAID-1. break RAID, put disk away, put in new disk,... So, yes, you can use some technologies where it's not meant to be used.
[19:50] <jeffesquivel> alvin, actually, I was thinking something like that... I know there is a tool called like nrbd or something like that
[19:50] <jeffesquivel> alvin, that is supposed to behave as a "networked RAID 1"
[19:51] <alvin> I shouldn't be saying stuff like that...
[19:51] <alvin> I know that exists, but what's the performance?
[19:51] <alvin> I think for mirroring /home, you need quite a bit these days with all databases running in the background.
[19:52] <alvin> Nepomuk, Akonadi, strigi,..
[19:52] <jeffesquivel> alvin, yeap, that's what I would research about... he he... it is probably not worth it
[19:52] <alvin> Databases are troublesome for syncs
[19:52] <jeffesquivel> alvin, but may work for some other similar situation in the future...
[19:53] <alvin> Even normal files. I tried to sync kjots (a note taking application) by using Dropbox. This fails most of the time.
[19:53] <jeffesquivel> alvin, hmm... is kjots similar to tomboy ?
[19:53] <jeffesquivel> alvin, because I think you can sync you tomboy notes through Ubuntu One
[19:53] <alvin> Maybe, it stores 'books' in files. Each book can have pages
[19:54] <alvin> I've heard about that. Well, kjots will soon move to akonadi, so I wonder what will happen then.
[19:54] <alvin> I think we need to put those things centralised. Databases belong on a server.
[19:55] <jeffesquivel> alvin, yeap... in tomboy they are named "notebooks" and notebooks have notes
[19:55] <jeffesquivel> he he
[19:55] <ScottK> There is someone doing a KDE cloud project meant to link all those kinds of things together.  Not sure if it's working or not yet.
[19:56] <alvin> Hmmm
[19:57] <jeffesquivel> I can't believe no one has thought of doing a FLOSS Dropbox-like project
[19:57] <jeffesquivel> it is so useful... he he
[19:57] <jeffesquivel> or at least it would be so useful for me ;)
[19:57] <alvin> You can also put your files in a git repo
[19:58] <jeffesquivel> alvin, never used git... it is something like subversion, right? let me STFW...
[19:58] <alvin> yes
[19:59] <alvin> There is a project that puts /etc in it. Also, to share between servers if I'm not mistaken
[20:04] <jeffesquivel> wow... didn't know the kernel team had stopped using bitkeeper
[20:04] <alvin> It was big news
[20:04] <jeffesquivel> I remember the controversy because of it not being OSS...
[20:04] <zim> hi all. is there a quick way I can get sshd to email me when someone logs on. ie.  session opened for user
[20:04]  * ScottK considers updating postfix to uninstall if you feed it an invalid hostname (the source of ^^^).   I was away from the news for quite sometime... he hehe
[20:05] <jeffesquivel> alvin, mostly working on non-linux related stuff...
[20:11] <jeffesquivel> alvin, do you know if Linus Torvalds created git because of the controversy of bitkeeper not being OSS or just because he felt they needed something better?
[20:11] <marshall> funny, i was just about to ask about git on ubuntu
[20:12] <alvin> jeffesquivel: I don't think you missed much. He created it because something in the license of bitkeeper changed
[20:12] <marshall> i did apt-get install git, which installed gnuit and something else, but 'git' isn't found when i try to use it
[20:12] <jeffesquivel> alvin, I see...
[20:12] <marshall> i thought he created it it keep track of linux kernel development?
[20:12] <alvin> That is its purpose
[20:13] <marshall> how do i use it on ubuntu jaunty?
[20:13] <alvin> Off course, Linus made git better than everything he used before, so that's why it's so popular now
[20:13] <marshall> !git
[20:14] <alvin> git is provided by git-core
[20:15] <alvin> gnuit is something else (git is a virtual package that installs gnuit)
[20:18] <jeffesquivel> alvin, hmm... but I don't think git is what I need... I actually don't care much about the version support of Dropbox (I have backups for that ;)... I mean is a nice feature, but I prefer the auto-sync better... he he
[20:21] <alvin> Let's ask ubottu
[20:22] <alvin> !autosync
[20:22] <alvin> !dropbox
[20:24] <Hypnoz> Hey I was playing with server redundancy with 2 nics, and ran into a weird issue. If anyone recognizes this pls let me know. http://dpaste.de/OowB/
[20:32] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, you want redundancy in case of a switch failure?
[20:33] <Hypnoz> yeah
[20:33] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, hmm... then link aggregation is not an option... unless you have fancy switchs which can behave as one virtual switch
[20:34] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, link aggregation is nicer because it also provides increased bandwidth... but both ethernet ports need to be on the same virtual switch
[20:34] <Hypnoz> virtual switch? not familiar with that
[20:35] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, I know this doesn't addresses your current issue... but may be a better way to do what you want to do... he he
[20:35] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_aggregation
[20:35] <Hypnoz> this is for a new DC not in production yet, trying to set up some redundancy on a budget
[20:35] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, specially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_aggregation#Single_switch
[20:36] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, IIRC, Linux supports link aggregation natively...
[20:37] <Hypnoz> I'll browse the article. Right now I have the server with two IP's both in the same subnet, and was going to put both IP's in the load balancer
[20:37] <Hypnoz> so if one goes down, the LB sees that and takes that link down
[20:37] <Hypnoz> but LB is taking both links down sometimes, when only one link went away
[20:39] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, is your LB a hardware device?
[20:39] <ihernandez> i'm hating ldap
[20:39] <ihernandez> really
[20:40] <lamont> ScottK: heh
[20:41] <Hypnoz> jeffesquivel: yeah an F5
[20:43] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, I have never used one of those
[20:44] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, down here is difficult/expensive to get cool devices... we usually try to do as much as possible in software (with FLOSS, preferably ;) )
[20:45] <Hypnoz> jeffesquivel: where is "down here"
[20:45] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, Costa Rica
[20:46] <Hypnoz> yeah I could see how it might cost more for network gear there than in california
[20:46] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, yep
[20:47] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, anyway... I think you can do what you want through link aggregation... basically you have to NICs that behave as one... you get twice the bandwidth and if one link fails the other is still used
[20:47] <jeffesquivel> s/to NICs/two NICs/
[20:48] <Hypnoz> jeffesquivel: ya I may look into virtual switch, and bond0 for my two eth adapters, it will be more inital config and learning, but sounds faster and more stable and redundant in the end
[20:49] <jeffesquivel> Hypnoz, yes
[20:51] <jeffesquivel> brb
[21:01] <GhostFreeman> How do I ask ubottu a question?
[21:01] <pwnguin> /msg ?
[21:02] <GhostFreeman> Well, that was resourceful
[21:02] <GhostFreeman> Anyone here using zsh on Ubuntu Server? How would I go about installing and configuring it
[21:02] <guntbert> !askthebot | GhostFreeman
[21:10] <smoser> soren, are you around ?
[21:10] <soren> smoser: MAybe.
[21:10] <smoser> what does
[21:10] <smoser>         logging.debug("Preventing daemons from starting")
[21:10] <smoser>         self.prevent_daemons_starting()
[21:10] <soren> Am I in troube?
[21:10] <smoser> do ?
[21:10] <soren> trouble.
[21:10] <soren> Uh..
[21:11] <soren> echoes some stuff to the debug log and calls a method?
[21:11] <smoser> as i understand all it does is put a script in /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d
[21:11] <soren> Not anymore.
[21:11] <smoser> of the target
[21:11] <soren> It also diverts initctl nowadays.
[21:11] <smoser> oh. i am looking at 0.11
[21:11] <soren> ok.
[21:11] <soren> Then... uh... Yes, you're probably right.
[21:12] <smoser> but am I right that it just puts that there, and then somehow things are supposed to run through that ?
[21:12] <soren> Not exactly.
[21:12] <soren> postinst scripts (well-behaved ones) call invoke-rc.d to start stuff.
[21:12] <soren> ..invoke-rc.d respects policy-rd.d
[21:12] <smoser> ok.
[21:13] <smoser> so, i'm guessing then that apache and postgres aren't well behaved... or maybe osmehting else got them started.
[21:13] <smoser> in hardy
[21:13] <soren> pass
[22:00] <jeffesquivel> RoAkSoAx, hi... are you part of the HA Team?
[22:01] <RoAkSoAx> jeffesquivel, yes I am
[22:02] <jeffesquivel> RoAkSoAx, great... is there a specific channel for contributing to HA?
[22:03] <jeffesquivel> RoAkSoAx, I've been asked to give a conference about HA at the FLISOL (latin american install fest day) and may be I can create some documentation or something that may be useful...
[22:03] <RoAkSoAx> jeffesquivel, in ubuntu we usually idle at #ubuntu-ha, but if you are interested in contributing upstream you should check #linux-ha and #linux-cluster
[22:03] <jeffesquivel> (plus I will probably need some help from team members ;-) )
[22:03] <RoAkSoAx> jeffesquivel, i know what that Is and I've also gave conference in the flisol about HA :P
[22:04] <RoAkSoAx> last year
[22:04] <jeffesquivel> damn! I should really try to enter the obvious channel before asking and looking like a fool, he he ;-)
[22:05] <jeffesquivel> RoAkSoAx, really? is your material licensed under CC or similar? can I use it?
[22:05] <jeffesquivel> RoAkSoAx, I'm in Costa Rica, btw... where did you gave your conference?
[22:05] <RoAkSoAx> jeffesquivel, you sure can but i'll have to search for it since I don't really know where in all my files it is. Just drop me an email reminding me
[22:07] <jeffesquivel> RoAkSoAx, ok, thank you very much!
[22:08] <RoAkSoAx> jeffesquivel, no prob
[23:23] <RoAkSoAx> lamont, ping
[23:33] <jeffesquivel> sherr, tahoe-lafs is already in ubuntu
[23:47] <RoAkSoAx> kirkland, ping?
[23:49] <Rafael_> can somebody help me with this comand, i get an error: sudo mount -t cifs -o username=xxxx,password=xxx //<IP_ADDRESS>/DRG/"D"/My Documents/Charts /home/rgotten/charts.windows
[23:56] <jeffesquivel> Rafael_, can you log into that share with that username and password using smbclient?
[23:57] <jeffesquivel> Rafael_, just in case... have you tried changing the order of the parameters as in the man page
[23:57] <Rafael_> jeffesquivel: i am new to all this and i was trying to create a mount point..my i ask you what you mean?
[23:57] <jeffesquivel> Rafael_, ok... first try this:
[23:58] <jeffesquivel> sudo mount -t cifs //<IP_ADDRESS>/DRG/"D"/My Documents/Charts /home/rgotten/charts.windows  -o username=xxxx,password=xxx
[23:58] <jeffesquivel> Rafael_, I think that is the correct order for the parameters... at least the official one
[23:59] <Rafael_> jeffesquivel: ok let me try


 Though why would that matter?
[18:38] <Flannel> I'll talk with him.  But I get the impression that it was a genuine question.
[18:39] <leftyfb> wow
[18:39] <leftyfb> Just wow
[18:40] <Flannel> leftyfb: Obviously he had the wrong guy, but that doesn't mean it was an incendiary question.
[18:40] <Flannel> leftyfb: Like I said, I'll talk with him.
[18:41] <leftyfb> Yeah, it’s obvious when someone asks in a oss support channel if someone else is a gay furry that they’re being sincere. You’re right.
[18:42] <Flannel> leftyfb: We get lots of "Oh hey, are you [so and so] from [random other place]?"
[18:43] <Flannel> leftyfb: It's a big channel, full of all kinds of people.  Some non-FOSS related mixing is bound to happen.
[18:43] <leftyfb> Unbelievable
[18:43] <Flannel> leftyfb: Like I said, obviously he has the wrong guy, but nothing in those words makes me think he's "accusing" you of being those things.
[18:44] <Flannel> Well, his most recent stuff in #u makes me think otherwise.
[18:44] <Flannel> leftyfb: I saw it, but I was talking with you in here.
 Goodbye leftyfb i hope you find your hot fox or panda furry lover soon
 leftyfb: dont be afraid of who you are.
[18:45] <leftyfb> good job
[18:45] <leftyfb> ya think?
[18:45] <Flannel> leftyfb: First off, we don't go around banning/kicking people because we think they might be trouble makers.
[18:45] <leftyfb> I've noticed
[18:45] <Flannel> leftyfb: And that's the correct thing to do.
[18:45] <leftyfb> then what is your purpose exactly?
[18:46] <Flannel> leftyfb: If you don't like it, find another community.
[18:46] <Flannel> leftyfb: That has ALWAYS been #ubuntu-*'s policy.
[18:46] <leftyfb> where is this written?
[18:46] <leftyfb> what is the purpose of the ops in #ubuntu?
[18:49] <Flannel> leftyfb: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines
[18:50] <leftyfb> " If someone is abusive, warn them. If someone won't learn or gets aggressive, remove them from the chat. "
[18:50] <Flannel> Yes, that is on that page.
[18:50] <leftyfb> "Someone who comes back after a kick and continues misbehaving: ban"
[18:50] <leftyfb> "Trolling: ban
[18:50] <leftyfb> "
[18:50] <Flannel> leftyfb: Right.
[18:50] <leftyfb> "Personal attacks against people: ban"
[18:51] <leftyfb> all of these are completely ignored
[18:51] <Flannel> leftyfb: What about "I know you" and "are you [so and so]"? is any of the above?
[18:52] <leftyfb> If you can't see through that completely obvious trolling, then you really have no business being an op. Seriously. That's very ignorant and downright negligent of your position and role according to your own guidelines.
[18:52] <Flannel> leftyfb: What in those words is trolling?
[18:53] <Flannel> leftyfb: I *agree* that he proved himself to be a trouble maker.  But that was after the fact.  What in those few words gave actual evidence?
[18:54] <leftyfb> When someone asks in an IRC support channel for a linux distribution if they are a gay furry, that is 100% trolling. To think otherwise is just astounding.
[18:54] <Flannel> leftyfb: I wouldn't be surprised if we had a few furries, and I know we have some gay people, in the Ubuntu community.  So I'm not sure I follow.
[18:55] <leftyfb> Then you are completely oblivious to trolling. Again, you have no business being in your position.
[18:56] <Flannel> leftyfb: That's why I asked if you had any previous interactions.
[18:56] <leftyfb> This isn't the first time either.   You can't be so quick to condemn people.  Freenode has this thing called catalyzing.  People should be catalyzing with people to try to get them to behave before any operator stuff happens.
[19:06] <hggdh> @login
[19:06] <hggdh> @btlogin
[19:25] <leftyfb> Flannel: what is there to discuss? Have the ops had a meeting and have decided to start enforcing their guidelines and are going to discontinue discouraging the community to report violators?
[19:25] <tsimonq2> or/
[19:25] <tsimonq2> grr
[19:27] <Flannel> leftyfb: We always encourage reporting problems.  That said, freenode believes in catalyzing.  You should be engaging people first, because most of the time, they aren't trying to cause trouble, and are only confused/new/frustrated.  Once after engaging them do we break out the operator stuff.
[19:27] <leftyfb> incorrect
[19:27] <Flannel> If you're not comfortable engaging them, that's fine, we encourage you to come here and let us know, and *we* will try to catalyze.
[19:28] <Flannel> Your first course of action, for most of the situations, shouldn't be to use the !ops trigger.  Which is really designed for emergencies.  In non-emergencies, you can just join here and point the problem out to us.
[19:28] <Flannel> Unfortunately, we can't always have our eyes in #ubuntu.
[19:29] <leftyfb> That is just plain stupid
[19:29] <Flannel> So we do encourage and happily accept your help in that regard.
[19:29] <Flannel> leftyfb: Which part?
[19:29] <leftyfb> incorrect
[19:30] <leftyfb> We ask trolls to leave. We ask them to stop. We get called names. We report them. Nothing gets done. We come here and we get told to ignore the trolls. Don't engage them. They'll go away on their own. All the while they're disrupting legitimate support.
[19:30] <Flannel> leftyfb: I believe you're referring to a recent situation with one particular person.  Not "people in general".
[19:31] <leftyfb> I'm referring to multiple cases over the course of months.
[19:31] <leftyfb> with multiple ops
[19:31] <Flannel> There will always be special cases, and we could go on forever about those, so lets stick to general concepts.
[19:32] <leftyfb> the majority of the time, I get called out as being toxic and making the matters worse
[19:32] <Flannel> leftyfb: I'm not aware of those multiple cases.
[19:32] <leftyfb> There's ALWAYS special cases. Each and every time anyone has reported anything it's been non-productive and discouraged
[19:32] <leftyfb> This is a regularly occurring problem
[19:32] <Flannel> leftyfb: So what I'm going to encourage you to do is make use of the appeals process when you feel like things aren't going right.
[19:33] <Flannel> That way the IRCC will have visibility and if we're back to this same place in a month, there's a record of these.
[19:33] <Flannel> Like I said, I only know of that one guy recently, so I can't speak to multiple times over the course of months.
[19:34] <leftyfb> What is the appeals process? And what am I appealing? ops not doing their job?
[19:34] <Flannel> Yeah.
[19:35] <leftyfb> Flannel: I've applied to become an op. I am in #ubuntu all day and night and can be pretty responsive at almost all hours if need be. I've received no reply or confirmation.
[19:35] <Flannel> Basically you come in here to discuss the actions with a third party, and if you're not satisfied with that, you escalate to the IRCC.
[19:36] <Flannel> The easiest way to do that is #ubuntu-irc-council, but there's also a mailing list for them.
[19:36] <Flannel> leftyfb: but again, the first step is to come here and discuss the situation with an operator
[19:37] <leftyfb> Flannel: i've been doing that for a long time now and the majority of the time nothing is done and I get reprimanded in different ways
[19:38] <Flannel> leftyfb: If you're being repremanded for doing what you should be doing, the IRCC is very interested in that.  Because that absolutely shouldn't be happening.
[19:38] <Flannel> leftyfb: But remember, freenode believes in catalyzing, so rarely is the "first step" of any situation going to be a kick/ban.
[19:39] <Flannel> Just because someone didn't get banned doesn't mean the operators are doing nothing.
[19:39] <leftyfb> You cannot "catalyze" trolls.
[19:39] <leftyfb> And again, I have seen operators "warn" someone MANY times and still not doing anything
[19:39] <Flannel> I generally agree, but I also know that people get in the habit of labelling everyone who sneezes the wrong direction a "troll" in 5ms.
[19:40] <leftyfb> I've been managing IRC channels for over 20 years. I know the difference
[19:40] <Flannel> It's easy to fall into a "everyone is a trouble maker" attitude after a while.  One has to constantly and consciously work against it.
[19:40] <leftyfb> 24 years to be exact
[19:40] <Flannel> In fact, that's explicitly mentioned in the Guidelines as well: "After staying in #ubuntu for a while, ops tend to get a bit trigger-happy. Don't forget that accidents do happen. Please don't put too severe punishments on accidental mishaps."
[19:42] <Flannel> leftyfb: Unfortunately, we don't believe in operating based on hunches alone.  Thoughtcrime isn't a thing.  So we can only work off of actual behavior.
[19:43] <Flannel> and yeah, we all have concerns about people at times.  Some of them prove to be true, others turn out wrong.  We can't just ban people immediately.
[19:43] <Flannel> While that would make #ubuntu peaceful, it would also make #ubuntu useless and not welcoming.
[19:46] <Flannel> It's also easy to forget that #ubuntu is full of people from all over the world, with a variety of backgrounds and value systems.  Sometimes people come off as brash, but in many cases it turns out to just be cultural or a language issue.  Text isn't the most expressive medium, especially if you're not a native speaker.
[19:47] <leftyfb> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/
[19:47] <leftyfb> oops
[19:48] <leftyfb> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/KBqXWqwzQc/
[19:48] <leftyfb> what about that?
[19:48] <leftyfb> I've reported that multiple times, zero response
[19:49] <leftyfb> they've been told every time to stop posting garbage in the channel
[19:49] <leftyfb> what I pasted in everything every nick starting with u0_a... has ever said
[19:49] <leftyfb> none of it is legitimate
[19:50] <leftyfb> and it's constant
[19:50] <Flannel> That's over the course of many months.
[19:50] <Flannel> leftyfb: Some of those have garbage, many of them are literally just saying hi.
[19:52] <Flannel> leftyfb: Are you proposing we ban u0_a* because of 20 garbage lines over the course of five months?
[19:53] <leftyfb> yes, because that is ALL that has ever come from the person
[19:53] <Flannel> I'm not sure it's even the same person.
[19:53] <krytarik> I'm pretty sure it's not.
[19:53] <Flannel> I expect it's a default client and/or some sort of class.
[19:53] <Flannel> Back in the day, we'd have tons of ubuntu* nicked people, because that was default for some client.
[19:54] <Flannel> but lets assume it is the same person.
[19:55] <Flannel> Has anyone ever had an actual conversation with them?  I'm sure there was SOME interaction that just wasn't picked up in your grep, but I don't mean "stop that", I mean an actual "hi, you're obviously new, please don't post random junk to #ubuntu" etc etc.
[19:56] <Flannel> If someone doesn't know it's not acceptable to post random things to an IRC channel, can you really fault them for doing it?
[19:56] <leftyfb> 2018 May 19 04:03:40 <cfhowlett>	u0_a397, do you have an ubuntu support question?  ask it.
[19:57] <Flannel> that's even worse than the "stop it", because in that case, you're assuming they're going to understand that if you're asking for a support question, that precludes random chatter.
[19:57] <Flannel> AND you're not even managing to tell them to "stop it", so even if they did post a support question, the NEXT time they come in, they don't know any better.
[19:58] <Flannel> And I won't even get into how unwelcoming it sounds.
[19:58] <Flannel> I mean, not actually unwelcoming, but if you're trying to fix behavior, that's not the way to go about it.
[19:58] <leftyfb> see what I mean
[19:59] <leftyfb> we have this problem, we try to address the problem and the problem becomes us
[19:59] <Flannel> and again, it's obvious looking at this that english is NOT their first language, so nuance isn't something you can count on.
[19:59] <Flannel> leftyfb: I agree that I'd prefer this person to stop doing this random stuff.  We agree with that.
[19:59] <Flannel> (and again, we'll assume it's the same person)
[20:00] <Flannel> leftyfb: What I don't agree with is that ANYTHING has actually been done to catalyze this person into the "right" behavior.
[20:00] <Flannel> leftyfb: Do you think this u0_a* person is a troll?
[20:00] <leftyfb> yep .. one that doesn't speak English very well
[20:00] <Flannel> ok.
[20:00] <Flannel> leftyfb: seriously?
[20:01] <leftyfb> no matter what language, if you're constantly joining a channel and posting garbage (it's not valid text in any language), then you are doing it on purpose.  That is repeat abusive behavior
[20:01] <Flannel> ok.
[20:01] <Flannel> Alright, I'm glad I'm not misunderstanding you.
[20:02] <Flannel> Becauase if you honestly believe that person is a troll, I hope you *never* *ever* have operator privledges in *any* ubuntu-related channel.
[20:02] <Flannel> Well, let me back that up a little.
[20:02] <Flannel> If you change your attitude, then I'd be willing to give you another chance.
[20:02] <Flannel> so, with your CURRENT attitude, I hope you never, ever have operator privledges anywhere.
[20:02] <Flannel> leftyfb: You need to stop being so jaded.
[20:03] <Flannel> You also need to remember that FOSS is built on the core concept of "assume good faith"
[20:03] <leftyfb> so let me get this straight
[20:03] <Flannel> When you have ZERO information about someone, you need to give them the benefit of the doubt, because MOST people are here and participating for the right reasons.
[20:04] <leftyfb> someone is posting garbage (not another language). Been asked to stop many times over the course of days/weeks. Doesn't stop. And this is ok? This should go unchecked?
[20:04] <leftyfb> I am not reposting most people. Only the obvious trolls
[20:04] <leftyfb> obvious to someone who knows how to spot a troll
[20:05] <leftyfb> That is obviously not you
[20:05] <krytarik> I would seem the 'u0_a*'s are Android user IDs btw.
[20:05] <Flannel> leftyfb: When we started, I had assumed all of the things I had heard about you were just a situation of you wanted action to happen 20% sooner than it was.  And I figured maybe that caused everyone to behave 10% slower.
[20:06] <Flannel> Because that evens it out.  You hear about things earlier than you ought to, so you back off a little to make things back to normal.
[20:06] <Flannel> I didn't realize that you need a major attitude adjustment.
[20:06] <Flannel> krytarik: Thanks for hunting that down
[20:07] <leftyfb> very well then
[20:07] <leftyfb> I'll keep reporting ops
[20:07] <Flannel> leftyfb: and we appreciate that.
[20:07] <leftyfb> you guys keep doing nothing about it
[20:07] <leftyfb> got it