 Merry Christmas to those who celebrate
 @kc2bez wxl When do we want to do Raman's grilling?
 I'm abstaining from voting until that's done :)
 Uh doodle poll
 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/lubuntu-devel/2019-December/001714.html
 What's Doodle? XD
 Now we just need Dan
 I should also bookmark mailing list archives. I think. :)
 @tsimonq2 [Now we just need Dan], I've checked some boxes.
 So tonight for me.
[11:14]  * The_LoudSpeaker fastens the armour
[11:18]  * RikMills looks for a big mace with armour piercing spikes...
 @The_LoudSpeaker now I have some time, do you have the logs of the conversation in #lxqt?
 Yup!
 One sec.
[13:18] <The_LoudSpeaker> [10:09 pm] <+afb3agaidaand  the problem is real but not that easy to fix - to be honest, it works most of the time fine but will need some structural changes in some data models
[13:18] <The_LoudSpeaker> [10:10 pm] <+afb3agaidaso the priority isn't that high - there are a lot of other things to be cleaned up first
[13:18] <The_LoudSpeaker> [10:11 pm] <76b3The_LoudSpeakernoted. I will try to document and file a bug soon.
[13:18] <The_LoudSpeaker> [10:14 pm] <+afb3agaidait boils down to - the shortcuts should not be written to panel and runner configurations, only to shortcut handling - and only get from there
[13:18] <The_LoudSpeaker> [10:16 pm] <+afb3agaidasetting these things from within an application is totally fine - will never work 100% safe without locking mechanisms, but fine until someone is willing to break this willingly
[13:18] <The_LoudSpeaker> There you go @hmollercl
 thanks
 honestly I don't remember which is the current problem, I mean right now on clean installation it works. So the problem only is when new panels are created?
 yup!
 and if user wants to change config from lxqt-globalkeys
 for runner and for panel
 there was a detailed discussion. agaida tested things himself and confirmed. I will pm you the detailed log.
 also, @teward001 the script to replace our packaging requirements is ready? I can test it. I just nuked the container which I used to use.
 creating one with a gui profile.
 Ugghhh! I kept my phone away and no arcanist asks me to provide api token which needs the 2FA authentication from my phone.
 *now
 @The_LoudSpeaker [there was a detailed discussion. agaida tested things himself and confirmed. I w …], mmm, that doesn't seems to be an easy fix to do it ourselves. I would document it clear in the manual. to avoid mistakes and leave it as known bugs.
 @HMollerCl [mmm, that doesn't seems to be an easy fix to do it ourselves. I would document i …], yup! we should do that for eoan. For focal, I think we can push upstream for a fix maybe? wxl ? we can anyway always put it in focal's manual i needed. :P
 @The_LoudSpeaker [creating one with a gui profile.], Now I can use sublime from container. yay!
 How did I author this? I don't see a diff linked.https://phab.lubuntu.me/rLXQTGLOBALKEYSPACKAGING8d14dd93bcc80f95cf12cd04ad932091de9c5194
 I forgot actually. 😁 Can someone remind me how we pick latest git from upstream?
 sorry, haven't done that, only patches.
 I need to find exact commit which was done before we (I) picked from upstream that day. Then create a patch from that to commit defining latest release.
 afaik there are no changes.
 But how do we confirm?
 oh wait.
 there are many changes.
 prior to picking the git, we were using 0.14.1
 with our own versions appended
 the pick was just before upstream's 0.14.2
 But final version released is 0.14.3
 so i need to make a patch from 0.14.2 to 0.14.3
 @kc2bez [I've checked some boxes.], So @kc2bez wxl that's 11:30 AM Central today?
 yes, 12:30 Eastern
 Sounds good. Technically there's two of us needed for quorum but all three is great too :)
 The more the merrier :D
 @RikMills @teward001 @HMollerCl etc. while y'all don't have final voting rights, you're welcome to attend and participate in the grilling :)
 I will have guests about that time, so looks like I can't 😢
 @RikMills [I will have guests about that time, so looks like I can't 😢], You're welcome to leave questions here too... ;)
 The source which I had fixed got lost when I deleted the container. :(
 while applying `git diff COMMIT COMMIT^ > patchname.patch` which commit is written first? the start one or the end one?
 @The_LoudSpeaker [while applying git diff COMMIT COMMIT^ > patchname.patch which commit is written …], Doing this gets a patch which undoes COMMIT
 If you want a patch that applies COMMIT, reverse the two
 okay.
 Because it's saying "given this base COMMIT, produce a diff that gets me to ANOTHER COMMIT"
 yeah so it should take 2 different commits as input na?
 Your original command says "given the base of COMMIT, give me the diff to get back to COMMIT^"
 @The_LoudSpeaker [yeah so it should take 2 different commits as input na?], Correct
 the one without "^" is the destination commit right?
 No! it is the start one
 It goes git diff ORIGINAL DESTINATION
 @The_LoudSpeaker [No! it is the start one], Yeah :)
 *facepalms*
 Thanks!
 No worries
 also what about this: … `ubuntu@focal-dev:~/lxqt-globalkeys$ git apply --check ~/release.patch --3way … error: config/translations/lxqt-config-globalkeyshortcuts_gl.ts: does not exist in index`
 I just got that when I tried a correct patch.
 That's not something I'd be able to tell you off the top of my head, hm
 Have you tried cherry picking patches instead of manually creating a patch and re-applying it?
 Earlier I had created a patch using gitk and that did not apply but the one created when using correct git diff command as you specified, gives me this^
 @tsimonq2 [Have you tried cherry picking patches instead of manually creating a patch and r …], Nope. Not cherry picking. But let me try something. one sec
 idk why but this doesn't apply: … `git diff 76eace1f491b14ab3f1b0c688493ca3a11d22ebd 9ae09e4684e8daae19eceef8548c3cd31abd1bef`
 This should work na? 🤔
 OH WAIT.
 I know why it isn't
 probably
 no.
 :(
 I will just clone from MoM, fix it, commit locally. then create a patch and apply it to clone from phab.
 https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/packaging/packaging_for_new_upstream_releases/
[16:41] <The_LoudSpeaker> wow! How did I miss this doc when I searched on phab earlier?
 that's for releases, not git verson
[16:42] <The_LoudSpeaker> tho I did have the idea of modifying the version in changelog and then running uscan
[16:43] <The_LoudSpeaker> Yeah true @hmollercl
[16:46] <The_LoudSpeaker> but it can be applied here i think
[16:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> How do I do the copyright update?
[16:56] <The_LoudSpeaker> scan for changes in the diff created between versions? in this case the patch that I created from out pick to the latest release?
 Let's get this rolling here
 wxl @kc2bez roll call?
[17:35] <The_LoudSpeaker> o/
[17:35] <kc2bez> o/
 Walter might be late
 So basically, our goal is to ask you questions to ensure that you're qualified to be a Lubuntu Developer
[17:36] <The_LoudSpeaker> ready.
 This could last up to an hour and ends when there are no more questions for you
 Answer each question to the best of your ability
[17:36] <The_LoudSpeaker> understood.
 Dan, want to go first or should I?
[17:36] <kc2bez> I can go.
[17:37] <kc2bez> First question.
[17:37] <kc2bez> Which pocket does an upload go to for the development series?
[17:38] <The_LoudSpeaker> proposed
[17:38] <The_LoudSpeaker> I am not sure
[17:38] <kc2bez> proposed is the answer.
[17:38] <The_LoudSpeaker> ufff.
[17:39] <kc2bez> Simon do you want to go?
 At what point in the cycle should you be careful not to introduce any new features, and what day is that for the 20.04 cycle?
[17:40] <The_LoudSpeaker> The point is Feature freeze
[17:40] <The_LoudSpeaker> and for the date, give me a sec.
[17:40] <The_LoudSpeaker> feb 27
 Correct.
 Dan?
[17:42] <kc2bez> What is the rationale for a SRU?
[17:44] <The_LoudSpeaker> The update should be very very stable and shoudn't cause regressions in any way. users expect a high degree of stability
[17:44] <kc2bez> That is true.
[17:45] <kc2bez> I have a follow-up to that.
[17:45] <The_LoudSpeaker> Any update shouldn't cause any problems in their day to day activities. instead it should improve their experience. Fot that, the SRU should be extremly stable
[17:46] <kc2bez> Also true.
[17:46] <kc2bez> Here is my follow-up:
[17:46] <kc2bez> Does a SRU make sense even if a bug is not high impact?
[17:48] <The_LoudSpeaker> If the bug is a low impact one, it doesn't make sense to push the fix. there are costs of network and time for downloading updates. it should be worth it.
[17:49] <kc2bez> Possible regressions should play a factor too.
[17:49] <kc2bez> It is a judgement call though.
[17:49] <kc2bez> Simon?
[17:49] <The_LoudSpeaker> examples of such bugs are those which do not affect users at run time. they should be instead staged and released along with other high impact fixes.
 What is the name of the tool which does Proposed Migration in Debian and Ubuntu, what is the criteria for a package to migrate to the release pocket in Ubuntu, and for bonus points, what pop culture reference does it come from? (If you can't answer the last one, that's okay.)
[17:52] <The_LoudSpeaker> The proposed-migration scripts do the migration in Debian an Ubuntu.
[17:52] <The_LoudSpeaker> The criteria is as follows:
[17:52] <The_LoudSpeaker> 1. must be built and published on all supported architectures.
[17:53] <The_LoudSpeaker> 2. all the dependencies must be already satisfied or should be installed along with the package.
[17:54] <The_LoudSpeaker> 3. there should be no bugs with the tag "block-proposed" against the package
[17:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> 4. the package or its binaries should pass the reverse-dependencies test in autopkgtests
[17:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> 5. finally, the introduction of the package shouldn't break any packages already in release package
[17:56] <The_LoudSpeaker> don't know the pop culture reference.
 The answer I was looking for is https://youtu.be/elueA2rofoo - the rest is acceptable, thanks. XD
 Dan?
[17:58] <The_LoudSpeaker> britney spears. ggwp!
 XD
[17:58] <kc2bez> Which of those 5 do you need for the package to be considered a valid candidate?
[17:59] <The_LoudSpeaker> 1, 2 and 4
[17:59] <kc2bez> correct.
[17:59] <kc2bez> Did Walter make it here yet?
[17:59] <The_LoudSpeaker> nope I think.
 I don't think so
[17:59] <kc2bez> ok
[17:59] <The_LoudSpeaker> I just pinged him.
[18:00] <kc2bez> Simon?
 This is more of a nuanced question but one worth exploring nonetheless: what's the difference between the Archive Admins and the Release Team, and where do you find who is in each?
[18:04] <The_LoudSpeaker> I am not completely sure about the roles of archive admins. Release team moderates the SRUs , mointor new relases of (l/x/k)ubuntu and they are the ones you can go to if you want to get your packages into proposed without satisfying "valid candidate" and to get features in after freezes.
[18:04] <The_LoudSpeaker> you can find who is which team by looking at their launchapad pages.
 Archive Admins accept packages from the NEW queues, Release Team can let packages in. SRU Team, while it has some overlap in members from other teams, is its own team
 And, into the release pocket, not proposed :)
 Dan?
[18:06] <The_LoudSpeaker> yup. released. my bad.
[18:06] <kc2bez> What is the general process for a feature freeze exception?
[18:09] <The_LoudSpeaker> the request should be filed as bug against the package in launchpad with status of "NEW" The request shoul contain the following information:
[18:09] <The_LoudSpeaker> 1. enough description of changes to gauge the impacts
[18:10] <The_LoudSpeaker> 2. a section explaining benefits from the changes
[18:10] <The_LoudSpeaker> 3. additional information that could be useful to take the decision.
[18:11] <kc2bez> sounds good. Simon?
 Why is it important to always do high quality work and ask if you're unsure before uploading? Who does it reflect on, who does it impact, and what levers would you be able to pull?
[18:15] <The_LoudSpeaker> It is important because changes one makes affect a large variety of users who expect a stable and high definition experience from the ubuntu and its flavours. As a developer making those changes, one should make sure they meet the expectations. It reflects the quality of the work done by the developer himself.
[18:15] <The_LoudSpeaker> I am not sure I understand the last part of the question.
 As in, how are you able to influence Lubuntu and Ubuntu as a whole with developer powers?
[18:19] <The_LoudSpeaker> With developer powers, I have the ability to change the user experience drastically, even with small changes. Thus, it is a huge responsiblity. As user experience ultimately leads to the image of Lubuntu and Ubuntu as a whole in the minds of the users.
 Nice answer. I'm ready to vote
 Dan?
[18:19] <wxl> wait a minute
[18:19] <wxl> it's time for my traditional trick question
 Look who decided to show up XD
 Okay
[18:19] <kc2bez> go wxl
[18:19] <The_LoudSpeaker> yay! sensei is here finally!
[18:20] <wxl> well first thing's first. how do you upload a change to the archive?
[18:23] <The_LoudSpeaker> as a lubuntu-dev I can only make changes to packages that are in lubuntu packageset. to make changes, I should find the source of the package in ubuntu. can be phab or launchpad in case of lubuntu packages. I should make changes locally. push them through arcanist or bzr.
[18:24]  * The_LoudSpeaker fingers crossed.
[18:25] <wxl> ok so let's say you're going to play sponsor for someone
[18:25] <wxl> how do you upload their changes?
[18:26] <The_LoudSpeaker> wait. I can also use dput. But I don't currently have much idea about how to do that.
[18:26] <wxl> yep, that's the right answer
[18:26] <The_LoudSpeaker> to upload changes for someone I am sponsoring, I should check and accept their diffs on phab.
[18:27] <wxl> dput is also used to upload where?
[18:27] <The_LoudSpeaker> arc land
[18:27] <The_LoudSpeaker> one sec. I will say the whole process
[18:27] <wxl> naw that's good
[18:28] <wxl> but outside of the archive, what can you use dput for? uploading where?
[18:28] <The_LoudSpeaker> uploading to ppas
[18:29] <wxl> nice
[18:29] <The_LoudSpeaker> I did that with lubuntu-grub-theme
[18:29] <wxl> if you do not specify a location in dput, what happens? where does it upload to?
[18:30] <The_LoudSpeaker> goes to ubuntu archives by default.
[18:31] <wxl> so how are you going to keep yourself from mistakenly uploading to the archive when you mean to go to a ppa? :)
[18:31] <The_LoudSpeaker> put a local dput file for ppa. or edit the /etc/dput.cf
 (I've done that btw, it's embarrassing)
 Me too
[18:32] <wxl> oh you're prepared. nice.
[18:32] <wxl> ok, i'm ready.
 Me too. Dan?
[18:32] <kc2bez> I have nothing further, I am ready.
 Voting in
 5
 4
 3
 2
 1
 +1
[18:33]  * The_LoudSpeaker armour waiting for rikmills
[18:33] <kc2bez> +1
[18:33] <wxl> +1
 Congratulations @The_LoudSpeaker on becoming the fourth Lubuntu Developer!
[18:33] <kc2bez> \o/
 I'll add him on LP real quick
[18:33] <The_LoudSpeaker> Thanks!
[18:34] <wxl> good job :)
[18:35] <The_LoudSpeaker> Thanks!
 congrats @The_LoudSpeaker
[18:36] <The_LoudSpeaker> also, I just remembered https://phab.lubuntu.me/P53 being open in one of the 30 tabs I had. wxl: you think It can be applied directly ? This was created from MoM
[18:36] <The_LoudSpeaker> Thanks! @hmollercl
 @HMollerCl [congrats @The_LoudSpeaker], Now where's your application? XD
 @tsimonq2 [Now where's your application? XD], https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/lubuntu-dev/applications/theloudspeaker/
 No, Hans'
[18:38] <kc2bez> XD
 XD
 @The_LoudSpeaker [https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/lubuntu-dev/applications/theloudspeaker/], it's in the future..
 @The_LoudSpeaker [<The_LoudSpeaker> Thanks!], Congrats
[18:39] <kc2bez> Congratulations @The_LoudSpeaker
 Thanks! @kc2bez @RikMills
 Now go upload your own stuff XD
 @RikMills where is your mace?
 @tsimonq2 [Now go upload your own stuff XD], XD tomorrow morning. gotta sleep now. :)
 I think the better question is where @RikMills' core dev app is 😆
 @The_LoudSpeaker [XD tomorrow morning. gotta sleep now. :)], Have fun!
 wait. while we were talking, I think the build I put succeded. And i managed to bump the version of lxqt-globalkeys I think.
 one query: we don't have .mailman folder right?
 @The_LoudSpeaker [one query: we don't have .mailman folder right?], * . mailmap
 @The_LoudSpeaker [also, @teward001 the script to replace our packaging requirements is ready? I ca …], No, having some issues getting the arc scripts installed, because git clone is inefficient
 and can't get it into a PPA in a way that works
 @teward001 [No, having some issues getting the arc scripts installed, because git clone is i …], No you
 @tsimonq2 [@RikMills @teward001 @HMollerCl etc. while y'all don't have final voting rights, …], E:CONTEXT
 oh dev membership
 *is still waking up today*
 @The_LoudSpeaker [wait. while we were talking, I think the build I put succeded. And i managed to …], nvm this.
 @tsimonq2 wxl, I changed the sleep time in lubuntu-update-notifer, changelog should be updated to 0.2 or 0.1ubuntu1 ?
 0.2 since it's a native package
 Only quilt packages or Ubuntu revisions of native packages in Debian use ubuntu
[19:45] <wxl> oh hey while you're at it trim down the short name
[19:45] <wxl> !info lubuntu-update-notifier
[19:45] <wxl> er short desc
[19:45] <wxl> you can see it cuts off there
 ok
 I already pushed a commit changing the time (forgot the changelog), can/should I use the same commit or should I use a new on?
 *one
[19:47] <wxl> packaging guide says "certainly under 80" but clearly you're limited to 62
 @HMollerCl [I already pushed a commit changing the time (forgot the changelog), can/should I …], Use a new one
[19:48] <wxl> commit messages don't really matter all that much.. not like changelog entries
 wxl: so Description in control is short desc?
[19:50] <wxl> Description is both, technically
[19:51] <wxl> see here https://phab.lubuntu.me/source/calamares/browse/ubuntu%252Ffocal/debian/control$52
[19:52] <wxl> you can see that the remainder of the "Description" line is the short desc
[19:52] <wxl> while the remainder of the file (what follows right after the "Description" line and is prepended by spaces with periods to indicate blank lines) is the long desc
[19:53] <wxl> so in this case the long desc includes the short desc, but it's got a capital d. indeed we find the short one here: https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/calamares
 ok, thanks. I remember I had to make it longer because lintian was complaining
[19:54] <wxl> debian's package tool shows the whole thing https://packages.debian.org/sid/calamares
[19:55] <wxl> so the packages tool is called "packages." go figure. https://salsa.debian.org/webmaster-team/packages
[19:56] <wxl> https://lintian.debian.org/tags/description-too-short.html doesn't seem to be too difficult to resolve :)
[19:57] <wxl> and here's one re: long desc but not as severe https://lintian.debian.org/tags/extended-description-is-probably-too-short.html
 @tsimonq2 pulled, need something else to appear in the daily?


[00:05] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: I don't take it personally and I don't think you should do that either. Why do you think they require something *only* from you and not from others (and by others I mean people who are not part of motu/ubuntu-cure-dev)? When I get asked to fix something I've missed (like bug I haven't closed, some justification I haven't made) I just do it. The asking person isn't there to make my life
[00:05] <kklimonda> harder or to stop my efforts - he or she's helping me to learn from my mistakes and assure a degree of quality of all uploads I do. Are there developers who don't have to abide to some rules? Yes. For various reasons. Does it matter to me personally? Not really. Should it matter to you? I have no idea. If it does you can raise your opinion on the ubuntu-devel (or ubuntu-devel-discuss to get more
[00:05] <kklimonda> input from non-developers) whether do they see that as a problem. If it's a problem according to the majority of contributors I think it should be fixed. I'm not sure how.
[00:05] <kklimonda> bah, this discussion isn't best suited for IRC :)
[00:16] <maxb> Does anyone know of any cdbs-using package which does configure-make-make-install TWICE, against two different dependent-library versions in a single source?
[00:16] <maxb> I am trying to bludgeon slony1 into building against multiple postgres versions in a PPA
[00:37] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: ping. are you able to discuss? sorry for the delay
[00:39] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: sure. I still have some time :)
[00:43] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: heh nice, it's late. sorry again for the delay, I took the shower. Well, I don't like attitude of expierenced developers. They don't want to approve me to MOTU, because they don't like my behavior.
[00:43] <ari-tczew> apparently I can't integrate (and this same cooperate) with other contributors as team
[00:44] <ari-tczew> I guess that this is nonsense, because I only show/say my views.
[00:44] <ari-tczew> do I need to change my views, because someone don't like them? nonsense
[00:46] <ari-tczew> I don't offend anyone. If someone feels hurted by me, just tell me. We'll look for fix the problem.
[00:47] <ari-tczew> I see that my work and my time (time is money) is leaking by developers's fingers.
[00:48] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: we should probably move this to private chat (not that I want to hide something, it's just not going to be on the topic discussion). If you think it's more appropriate to discuss it here and others don't mind we can stay :).
[00:49] <ari-tczew> ScottK, I know that you're watching this or you'll see this: I thought about our problem and I have to say it: Ubuntu needs a contributors, not contributors needs Ubuntu
[00:50] <funkyHat> I notice that the new version of mpd is built for i386 but not amd64... is there often a long delay between the builds? (I checked the build status page and nothing's shown up there, it shouldn't, I built it for amd64 while testing ⢁))
[00:50] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: no, I want to show what are going here, because situation is not healthy
[00:51] <Laney> hi funkyHat, it appears to just be waiting to start
[00:51] <Laney> See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mpd/0.15.9-2ubuntu1/+build/1784550
[00:51] <ajmitch> funkyHat: see the queue length at https://edge.launchpad.net/builders
[00:51] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: heh, fine. I'll assume then that others don't mind this discussion until proven otherwise.
[00:51] <funkyHat> Laney: ajmitch: thanks ⡈)
[00:51] <ajmitch> and yes, I built it on amd64 locally as well
[00:52] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: if someone want to undermine my views, let's talk.
[00:57] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: Okay. I can only base my view on comments (yours and those from other people) from your motu application, the two discussion with you I have seen, this discussion and our last private discussion I'm not willing to quote publicly. I can't comment from the technical standpoint as I don't work with you in any way.
[00:58] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: oooo! that's it! "base my view on comments"
[00:59] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: Ubuntu Developers team is created by a lot of people. We all have our differences, goals, worse and better days. We all share the same goal of making Ubuntu as good as it can be given the resources we all have.
[00:59] <ari-tczew> don't you have yours views? individually? I see that if someone wrote "he is not patient" then everybody wrote the same. sick!
[01:01] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: yes - I have my own view I'm presenting here. If you'd let me to write it first.It's based on all the comments from your application page - not only comments from other people but also your response.
[01:02] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: I believe you are making a mistake thinking that those who comment on your applications are following someone's lead.
[01:02] <ari-tczew> they wrote: more patience. ok, nice (btw. I think that this is character issue). I want to say: More gratitude and more understanding!
[01:03] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: ScottK and Laney have written their comments at different times, they are not related to the same issue.
[01:03] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: your lack of patience may be a character issue but it's something you have to work on. We all have our issues but at the end of the day we all have to work as a team.
[01:04] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: I see no problem with cooperate as a team and if someone tell me that I'm not ready for teamwork I'm going to say - nonsense! :|
[01:05] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: ScottK has, correctly, pointed your mistake out. Your reaction has been asking him to basically fix it or shut up.
[01:05] <ari-tczew> with Laney we have a clear question.
[01:06] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: we all make mistakes. Hell, I've done one myself just another day uploading SRU and forgetting to write a justification (I've discussed it with other developer and assumed incorrectly he'd be the one to process it). The problem is how do we deal with other people pointing them out.
[01:06] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: and ScottK exaggerates that I'm damaging bug tracker - sorry, but lol for it.
[01:07] <Laney> I once uploaded a PPA package to the distribution
[01:07] <Laney> which kicked off a transition far too early, that was a bad mistake
[01:07] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: I see that developers seems to be much sensitive
[01:08] <kklimonda> ari-tczew: sorry, but you have sounded so defensive it has actually been aggressive - It may not have been your intention, the language barrier can make heated discussion evern more heated but that's even more of a reason to weigh your words carefully.
[01:09] <ari-tczew> kklimonda: what is wrong in my words?
[01:09] <ari-tczew> show me
[01:09] <Laney> I think you guys should maybe take this to PM now
[01:09] <imbrandon> or email
[01:11] <ari-tczew> easiest way is say shut up and get out there, because just you're too small and you're only contributor and we are a developers! yea this is it
[01:18] <ari-tczew> I hope that you'll merge all packages and clean sponsors queue. Fix all CVEs and invite more contributors. good luck!
[01:20] <carstenh> #583698 is imho wronly tagged "importance low" and has an trivial debdiff attached
[01:23] <carstenh> that should have been "wrongly"
[01:32] <samliu> hi there, anyone happen to know how to package java applications from source? I could use some pointers
[01:35] <carstenh> apt-get source weirdx or any other random java package does not help?
[01:36] <carstenh> ok, X in java does not sound that easy, but there are other packages
[01:43] <micahg> carstenh: I think that was set low because it was a corner case, but I might be wrong
[01:44] <carstenh> wrong decisions can be fixed ;)
[02:25] <ScottK> ari-tczew: Ubuntu needs a community and that means people need to be able to deal with criticism without being reactive and hostile.
[02:29] <ari-tczew> ScottK: are you sure that you are able to got criticism?
[02:30] <ari-tczew> after thoughts I want to tell you, that your opinion is very exaggerated
[02:33] <ScottK> ari-tczew: I'm not always perfect at it.
[02:33] <ScottK> No one is perfect at anything.
[02:34] <ScottK> If you can't accept feedback from fellow developers I don't trust you to have upload rights.
[02:34] <ScottK> Your continuing to argue about it convinces me more that I am correct.  If you want to change my mind, start by accepting responsiblity for them.
[02:35] <ari-tczew> ScottK: since 4 hours I want to show: only your opinion is correct. ONLY!
[02:35] <ari-tczew> and I can say nothing
[02:36] <ScottK> ari-tczew: FWIW, I agree with you that there are developers that don't do a proper job of documenting changes.
[02:40] <ari-tczew> ScottK: is your opinion irrefutable? always are sure 100%?
[02:40] <ari-tczew> can not I criticise you?
[02:41] <ScottK> ari-tczew: No.  I'm not always 100% certain, but you're aggressive behaviour at the moment is convincing me more that I am correct in this case.
[02:41] <ScottK> By attacking me, you are making it worse.
[02:41] <ScottK> You may also note that several other people have said similar things to you.
[02:41] <ScottK> You might consider that we aren't all wrong.
[02:42] <ari-tczew> ScottK: who?
[02:43] <ari-tczew> I know about you and Laney but with Laney we have a clear situation
[02:43] <ScottK> I read kklimonda's comments as similar.
[02:43] <ScottK> That's just today.
[02:44] <ari-tczew> ScottK: I suggest to update your opinion about: do you have problem with me about packaging skill or problem with behavior?
[02:45] <ari-tczew> I think that we need to split these issues
[02:45] <ScottK> ari-tczew: I haven't sponsored anything of yours recently (if ever), so I don't have an opinion on your packaging skills.
[02:45] <ScottK> I don't think I've ever said anything bad about them.
[02:46] <ari-tczew> ScottK: I don't like see "he is damaging bug tracker"
[02:47] <ScottK> Ah.  That's not packaging exactly in my view.
[02:48] <ScottK> You were making inappropriate changes to the bug tracker and saying you were going to continue doing it.
[02:48] <ScottK> That was damaging the bug tracker.
[02:48] <ScottK> You did, in the end, change your mind on that.
[02:50] <ari-tczew> ScottK: I have enough, sorry. Good luck and have fun!
[02:51] <ScottK> ari-tczew: Please also note that nowhere have I said you should never be a MOTU nor have I said you should not contribute to the project.
[02:52] <ScottK> (for reference, I have said that before and that individual is still the only person ever to have been disallowed from volunteering for MOTU work)
[02:52] <ajmitch> now he was damaging
[02:52] <ScottK> Yes.
[02:52] <jean>
[02:53] <ari-tczew> fine then. I won't damage anymore
[02:54] <ScottK> ari-tczew: If I see a pattern of you being accepting of feedback from other developers and not hostile/defensive, then I'll reconsider my position, but I have to see it first.
[02:56] <ari-tczew> ScottK: argumented feedback OK, but with this damaging is very big word
[02:56] <ari-tczew> nothing else which has done is not important, only this one mistake
[02:56] <ajmitch> wasn't that text removed from the feedback section?
[02:56] <ScottK> I'm double checking
[02:57] <ajmitch> from what I can see, it was only there for an hour until you changed it to be more diplomatic
[02:58] <ScottK> ari-tczew: The word you are complaining about isn't there anymore.
[02:58] <ScottK> It hasn't been for quite some time.
[02:58]  * ajmitch isn't quite sure of the value of changing -1build1 uploads to -1fakesync1 - AFAIK it's only -XubuntuY revisions that are special-cased for syncs
[02:58] <ScottK> ajmitch: In theory if we use fakesync1, then the sync script could get smart enough to autosync new upstream versions.
[02:59] <ScottK> But not new revisions that would need to be handled manually.
[02:59] <ari-tczew> I heard that autosync from Debian is going to sync XbuildY packages, but if this is fakesync, autosync provides a lot of error messages and archive admins are not satisfied
[03:00] <ScottK> That's correct.
[03:00] <ScottK> Traditionally I've always used ubuntu1 for a fakesync exactly so syncsource wouldn't attempt to sync it.
[03:01] <ari-tczew> so I'm going to make fakesyncs for not provide error messages by autosync
[03:01] <ari-tczew> but if it's ubuntu1 then we don't know directly about mismatching tarball
[03:03] <ari-tczew> ScottK: so changing version to fakesync it;s correct or not?
[03:03] <ScottK> ari-tczew: I think it's a new idea and there is no clear policy yet.
[03:03] <ScottK> I think it's fine to do it, but I also wouldn't be suprised if other people disagreed.
[03:03] <ari-tczew> fine, so let's sponsor my patches
[03:04] <ScottK> ari-tczew: I've got other work planned for this evening.
[03:04] <ari-tczew> ScottK: I said this generally, not precisely point this work on you
[03:04] <ScottK> ari-tczew: OK.
[03:06] <ari-tczew> ok, let's get shutdown launchpad and irc. see you! good luck and have fun again
[03:07] <ajmitch> it must be fairly late there :)
[03:07] <ari-tczew> yea
[03:08] <kklimonda> ajmitch: don't even ask. this discussion has been too long ;)
[03:08] <ajmitch> kklimonda: oh I know
[03:09] <ajmitch> I've been watching it go on
[03:09] <ajmitch> and I'm still not convinced about uploading a whole lot of fakesyncs where the only change is in the changelog to shut up buggy tools
[03:10] <kklimonda> ok, time to get as much sleep as I can. g'night :)
[03:11] <ajmitch> night
[03:16] <ScottK> ajmitch: I agree we shouldn't upload just to call it fakesync, but I think there's a useful distinction to be made and so when doing a new fakesync (for other needed reasons), it's a decent idea to use Xfakesync1.
[03:16] <ajmitch> right, but quite a few of the packages by ari-tzcew that I can see in the sponsoring queue are just for this
[03:17] <ScottK> I wouldn't support that.
[03:17] <ajmitch> which is why I was checking up on what the autosync tools look at
[03:17] <ScottK> Currently it will just overwrite buildX.
[03:17] <ajmitch> I didn't think there'd be any difference between -1build1 and -1fakesync1 at this point
[03:17] <ScottK> It's probably trivial to teach it to have new upstream versions overwrite fakesync.
[03:18] <ajmitch> at least not in terms of errors done
[03:18] <ScottK> Maybe it's the other way around.
[03:18]  * ScottK didn't look.
[03:18] <ajmitch> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/exifprobe/+bug/591259 is an example of one I was hesitant to sponsor
[03:19] <ScottK> wgrant: Will syncsource.py do a sync for a fakesync1 revision?
[03:19]  * ajmitch has the LP source to look at here
[03:20] <ajmitch> though wgrant is the acknowledged expert
[03:20] <ScottK> Oh, right.  Forgot you do that stuff too.
[03:20] <ajmitch> I don't really :)
[03:20] <ScottK> You have the source, so you're way ahead of me.
[03:22] <ajmitch> from what I can see, it's only looking for the string 'ubuntu' in the version
[03:24] <ScottK> OK,
[03:24] <ajmitch> it shouldn't need forcing for either -1build1 or -1fakesync1, and would treat them the same
[03:24] <ajmitch> amusing, it calls dak_utils.fubar() to complain
[03:25] <ScottK> How hard would it be for it to treat XfakesyncY like XbuildY if the candidate has a new upstream and like XubuntuY if it is just a new revision?
[03:25] <ScottK> Nice.
[03:26] <ajmitch> from what I can see, it wouldn't take much, if it splits the upstream versions & compares on those if faeksync is in the debian revision
[03:28]  * ScottK whistles inoccently and looks around for someone with the source handy to make a branch....
[03:28] <ajmitch> fine, I'll fork it :P
[03:29] <ajmitch> testing this will be fun
[04:21] <TheMuso> raywang: Seems Debian's git repos have been updated with at-spi2 v0.3.3. I am probably going to base off those for the time being. What is wrong with v0.3.3 at the moment?
[04:21] <raywang> TheMuso, okay, I'll find some clue for you. :)
[04:22] <TheMuso> raywang: Its just that you said there were important bugs in it, and are sticking with 0.3.2 in your PPA.
[04:22] <TheMuso> raywang: I am just curious as to why.
[04:24] <raywang> TheMuso, no, no, I just mean that if there is no one taking care of packaging at-spi2, I'd love to help on, but if someone is doing it.I'd like to use them. :)
[04:24] <TheMuso> raywang: ok I will likely uploading the Debian packages to a PPA later, that is if I don't need to make changes myself to suit Ubuntu.
[04:26] <raywang> TheMuso, and what I mean for 0.3.2 is I just know there are some/few bugs that i believe is important, they might break something, so i didn't package 0.3.3.  but I'll find them for you. and then we will see. :-)
[04:26] <TheMuso> raywang: Doesn't matter, it all needs testing anyway, I'll just upload the latest.
[04:27] <raywang> TheMuso, that's great
[04:27] <TheMuso> 8/c
[04:32] <raywang> TheMuso, so where I can find the new at-spi2 upload?
[04:32] <raywang> TheMuso, and who is currently maintain them?
[04:32] <TheMuso> raywang: They are currently in the pkg-a11y git repo on git.debian.org
[04:33] <raywang> alright
[04:36] <raywang> TheMuso, okay, I may made some mistake, the latest release would probably good enough. and I forget the bug that I have seen before. :P
[04:39] <TheMuso> ok
[04:42] <raywang> it's great to see Samuel Thibault is taking care of those packages.
[04:45] <TheMuso> yep
[04:46] <TheMuso> hrm. They don't have at-spi2-pyatspi there it seems.
[04:46] <raywang> TheMuso, it's call pyatspi
[04:46] <raywang> called
[04:46] <TheMuso> raywang: that explains it then. :p
[04:48] <raywang> TheMuso, so, he is taking charge of them, but anyway I would still like to do something for a11y, if there is anything i can do, please let me know. :)
[04:48] <TheMuso> raywang: Sure, thanks for the offer of assistance.
[04:48] <raywang> my pleasure
[05:56] <ripps> Does anybody here know how to make dkms package. Lucid/Maverick aren't able to use wacom bamboo ctl-460+ because the kernel uses out of date code. I was hoping I could help a lot of people by using dkms to auto-update the wacom module everytime a kernel is installed
[06:00] <ScottK> ripps: Did you try looking at a package that already uses dkms?
[06:01] <ripps> ScottK: not yet, do know an example of one that's well done?
[06:01] <micahg> does virtualbox-ose use it?
[06:02] <ripps> hmm, there's a virtualbox-ose-dkms package
[06:03] <ScottK> bcmwl uses it too.
[06:06] <ripps> any packages that use debhelper 7?
[06:08] <ripps> well, I found a template that uses cdbs, I guess that'll have to do.
[06:55] <jetienne> http://packages.debian.org/sid/nodejs this package is in debian but not in ubuntu, what is the process to get it included in ubuntu repositories ?
[07:02] <statik> jetienne, you can use the requestsync tool to file a bug requesting that the package be synced into ubuntu.
[07:02] <jetienne> statik: ok. i will see how to use this tool
[07:03] <ajmitch> it is in maverick
[07:06] <jetienne> Connecting to fiordland.ubuntu.com:25 ...
[07:06] <jetienne> Sync request mailed.
[07:06] <jetienne> should i supposed it worked ? where can i double check?
[07:07] <ajmitch> a sync request wasn't needed
[07:08] <ajmitch> !backports
[07:11] <jetienne> ajmitch: so the request wont make it happen ?
[07:11] <statik> ah, i just took your word for it that it wasn't in ubuntu
[07:11] <statik> sorry about sending you in the wrong direction there
[07:13] <ScottK> jetienne: It's already happened.
[07:13] <jetienne> ScottK: nodejs is already in ubuntu you mean ?
[07:13] <ScottK> Yes.
[07:14] <jetienne> ScottK: why apt-cache search dont find it ?
[07:14] <ScottK> It's just in the maverick release, not lucid.  If you want to get it backported to lucid, follow the backports process
[07:15] <jetienne> ScottK: oh cool, thanks. next release is fine by me
[07:25] <ajmitch> I'll close the bug now then :)
[07:27] <jetienne> https://bugs.launchpad.net/lucid-backports/+bug/592034
[07:30] <RAOF> What?  _Another_ javascript interpreter?
[07:31] <jetienne> RAOF: this is v8, you can find it in chrome and chromium. This is the server version + nice network library
[07:53] <dholbach> good morning
[12:19] <BlackZ> if a new package in debian is still not synced in ubuntu should be filed a sync request? (also if the package isn't in ubuntu)
[12:45] <dholbach> Packaging Training Session in 15m in #ubuntu-classroom: Operation Cleansweep and the Patch Reviewers Team!
[14:15] <jetienne> BlackZ: yes (according to what i have been told this morning)
[14:18] <sebner> jetienne: BlackZ : Auto-syncs should still run some time?!
[14:19] <jetienne> sebner: ? dunno, just repeating what i have been told
[14:19] <BlackZ> sebner: yeah, but it's not still synced in ubuntu, BTW I'd like to ask the sync because there's a package which FTBFS because of a missing dependence
[14:20] <siretart> did you check that it's not still in the NEW queue?
[14:23] <BlackZ> siretart: seems not
[15:01] <ScottK> BlackZ: In Debian Main or Contrib/Non-free?
[15:01] <BlackZ> ScottK: main
[15:02] <ScottK> jetienne: What you were told before wasn't exactly correct.  Prior to Debian Import Freeze (which is were we are now), there should be no need to file sync requests.
[15:02] <ScottK> BlackZ: What package?
[15:02] <BlackZ> ScottK: glue-schema
[15:02] <jetienne> ScottK: ok, how long is the Debian Import Freeze ?
[15:03] <ScottK> !schedule | jetienne
[15:03] <ScottK> oops.
[15:03] <ScottK> Let me get you the link.
[15:03] <jetienne> http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases <- this one is a 404
[15:04] <ScottK> jetienne: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule
[15:05] <BlackZ> ScottK: so, should I file a sync request?
[15:05] <ScottK> BlackZ: Looking
[15:06] <jetienne> ScottK: ok
[15:08] <ScottK> BlackZ: It depends on how urgent it is.  It's a relatively new package.  New packages only get brought in by a separate type of sync run that is done less often.  It will get run again before DIF, so I'm certain it will get into Maverick.  If you can wait, I wouldn't file the sync request as it's more manual work for the archive admins.
[15:09] <jetienne> the interest of lucid is the LTS support. especially for the package relevant on servers
[15:15] <BlackZ> ScottK: I can wait, but it's a required dependence for a package (actually it FTBFS due to that)
[15:16] <ScottK> BlackZ: If for some reason it's not here by DIF, then request a sync.  I'm pretty sure it will be.
[15:16] <ScottK> It's very difficult to reliably work on archive consistency stuff like that prior to DIF anyway.
[15:18] <BlackZ> ScottK: ok, thanks
[16:15] <tonyyarusso> Where does dh_install look for files, in v6 mode?
[16:30] <ScottK> Why v6?
[16:36] <tonyyarusso> ScottK: I thought it might be useful to make things compatible with hardy still.    Then yeah, this is stupid.
[16:38]  * tonyyarusso was thinking about the production servers for some reason instead of just build machines
[16:41] <tonyyarusso> ScottK: the first part of the question still stands I guess, although supposedly it looks in $builddirectory/debian/tmp.  Testing that now...
[16:46] <tonyyarusso> gah
[16:46] <tonyyarusso> Still getting "dh_install: nagios-xi-agent missing files (conf/nrpe.d/*.cfg), aborting"
[16:46] <tonyyarusso> from ls, /tmp/buildd/nagios-xi-agent-0.1/debian/tmp/conf/nrpe.d:
[16:47] <tonyyarusso> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1.2K Jun 10 15:45 common.cfg
[16:47] <ScottK> What if you change *.cfg to common.cfg?
[16:49] <tonyyarusso> I'll try that, but the documentation seems to agree that dh_install should be okay with wildcards.
[16:51] <tonyyarusso> On the plus side, it's making me really happy that I'm not waiting for some 3-hour compile every time to figure this out :P
[16:53] <tonyyarusso> cp: cannot stat `debian/tmp/conf/nrpe.d/common.cfg': No such file or directory
[16:54] <Rhonda> tonyyarusso: You don't have to completely build, you even can run the dh_ scripts manually by hand.
[17:00] <tonyyarusso> I wish I could find some good examples of this somewhere.
[17:27] <xteejx> Hey guys, trying to merge a package with the merge-buildpackage script and it keeps coming up with "tail: cannot open `debian/changelog' for reading: No such file or directory"  help?
[17:31] <xteejx> Any ideas?
[17:32] <xteejx> I'm in the same directory as the merge script
[17:47] <geser> you should call it from the packaging dir
[17:48] <xteejx> geser: You mean from the source dir or the build dir (where the dsc and tars are?
[17:56] <geser> in the unpacked directory
[18:02] <xteejx> ah ha!! thanks geser it's working now, didn't think to try something as simple as that hehe :)
[18:16] <Guest24362> hello is there anyone who could review my application? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=cortina
[18:17] <Guest24362> nick eric
[18:18] <eric2> ok well no one answers... could someone tell me the next review day??
[18:19] <carstenh> patience ... people don't read irc all day
[18:19] <eric2> ok
[18:35] <heff09> hello ive just upgraded to lucid and have some questions, is any 1 on ?
[18:36] <Pici> heff09: If you're looking for a support channel, #ubuntu is the place, if this is a packaging/motu question then please continue.
[18:37] <heff09> ok my problem is to do with fgrun not opening when installed ?
[18:37] <heff09> is there help here with that ?
[18:39] <danohuiginn> I have a bug that's fixed by rebuilding the package (bug #589443).
[18:39] <danohuiginn> so I believe the correct procedure is to add an entry to the changelog, so the build daemons will rebuild it. Is that right?
[18:39] <Pici> heff09: Why do you think that is something for the MOTUs?
[18:39] <danohuiginn> And Is there somewhere I can see build logs for the earlier package, to figure out what went wrong beforehand?
[18:40] <heff09> sorry noob here dont know what MOTUs is
[18:40] <ScottK> danohuiginn: Those are stored in Launchpad as wekk.
[18:40] <Pici> heff09: You are in the #ubuntu-motu channel right now, not #ubuntu
[18:41] <heff09> ok
[18:41] <Pici> heff09: This channel is for the people who do the packaging of applications in the repositories, it is not the place to get regular support.
[18:42] <hyperair> !#ubuntu
[18:42] <Pici> !support
[18:42] <hyperair> ah whoops =p
[18:42] <Pici> :)
[18:44] <danohuiginn> ScottK: thanks. Where exactly do I find wekk on launchpad? searching isn't turning anything up
[18:44] <asomething> danohuiginn: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/48295354/buildlog_ubuntu-maverick-i386.pdfshuffler_0.5-1_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz
[18:44] <danohuiginn> thanks, asomething
[19:06] <ScottK> danohuiginn: I agree it needs a rebuild.
[19:09] <ScottK> danohuiginn: For a rebuild it's trivial to upload a no chance version.  I'll take care of it.
[19:09] <danohuiginn> Ok. thanks, ScottK
[19:10] <danohuiginn> although the build log seemed to contain a few errors as well
[19:10] <ScottK> It did.  I checked and it builds fine now.
[19:11] <danohuiginn> great
[19:21] <ScottK> danohuiginn: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pdfshuffler/0.5-1build1
[19:22] <ScottK> danohuiginn: Thank you for your contribution to Ubuntu.
[19:22] <danohuiginn> thanks for being so welcoming :)
[19:25] <jcastro> hyperair: were you the one working on putting pdfmod in ubuntu/debian?
[19:26] <hyperair> jcastro: yes. i'm stuck at getting pdfsharp in.
[19:26]  * jcastro nods
[19:26] <hyperair> jcastro: it'll take time, and i haven't had a suitably contiguous block of time
[19:26] <hyperair> to look at it, i mean
[19:26] <jcastro> is there anything I can do to help?
[19:26]  * jcastro thinks it would be a nice featured app in the software center
[19:28] <hyperair> jcastro: nothing much really. i'll just have to figure out how to use xbuild, and then get it to work on pdfsharp
[19:28] <hyperair> i should probably start working on poppler-sharp too, i've gotten it autotoolized upstream
[20:20] <MaximLevitsky> what is the policy on EXPREMENTAL in the ubuntu kernel?
[20:21] <imbrandon> not to say someone wont awnser here, but you might have a b it better luck in #ubuntu-kernel for that one
[20:21] <imbrandon> s/b it/bit
[22:28] <gnomefreak> did anyone else get emails from<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:28] <ajmitch> you meanapart from the usual spam/phishing/general crap that comes through with fake addresses?
[22:29] <geser> "Subject: ubuntu.com account notification"?
[22:30] <gnomefreak> yes
[22:30] <ajmitch> that's usual, just delete them
[22:30] <geser> I've currently 66 of them in my spambox
[22:30] <gnomefreak> thats the first time i saw them but none of them say to me
[22:36] <gnomefreak> thanks for the info
[22:42] <ajmitch> ScottK: so I've changed sync-source.py to complain & bail out if trying to sync a package with fakesync in the revision & same upstream versions
[22:43] <ajmitch> the fun part will be testing it, and seeing if the archive admins with shell access will find it useful
[22:43] <ScottK> Cool.
[22:43] <ScottK> I'd say if it tests out, send mail to ubuntu-devel and let's discuss.
[22:44] <ajmitch> & then run the launchpad patch submission gauntlet
[22:46] <ScottK> meh.  Details.
[23:24] <ajmitch> [NOT Updating - Fakesync] hello_2.5-0fakesync1 (vs 2.5-1)
[23:24] <ajmitch> k, so that works
[23:26] <geser> but hello 2.6-1 would get autosynced?
[23:26] <ajmitch> yes
[23:27] <ajmitch> apt_pkg.upstream_version() is useful for that
[23:53] <jcastro> directhex: #sparkleshare on gimpnet pls.


[02:08] <FloatingGoat> okay
[02:08] <FloatingGoat> len-dt: its like very static?
[03:49] <FloatingGoat> len-dt: whats the best way to record guitar?
[03:49] <len-dt> Whatever gets the sound you want
[03:50] <len-dt> Last bit I did, I used a vocal mic (at 2020) to record an acoustic, and ran the electric direct.
[03:51] <len-dt> I added effects to the guitars after I had most of my tracks for mixdown.
[03:52] <len-dt> That can be a bit limiting because one plays different depending on how the sound is
[03:53] <len-dt> But it does give a nice clean track that any effect will work on.
[03:54] <len-dt> FloatingGoat, When I say direct in... that means through a preamp... not direct to sound card.
[03:55] <len-dt> The pre amp I used is the one in a Mackie 1604 mixer.
[03:56] <len-dt> Still, lots of records made with an SM57 in front of the guitar amp too.
[03:57] <len-dt> Depends what kind of sound you want.
[03:58] <len-dt> Use your ears... make 5 or 10 tracks doing it every way you can think and keep what sounds best for the song you are doing.
[03:59] <len-dt> If I use more than one guitar track I try to do each one different.
[04:00] <len-dt> Use different guitars, mics, amps, effects etc.
[04:00] <FloatingGoat> okay
[04:01] <FloatingGoat> i pretty much did it the way you said
[04:01] <FloatingGoat> i recorded my acoustic through
[04:01] <FloatingGoat> my mic and the electric through the not mic
[04:01] <FloatingGoat> I mean like
[04:01] <FloatingGoat> if its a two minute song
[04:01] <FloatingGoat> should I play guitar for two minutes and thats the track?
[04:02] <FloatingGoat> the same thing for two minutes?
[04:02] <len-dt> Whatever sounds right for the style of music and gets what the song is trying to say across.
[04:02] <len-dt> Music is about communication.
[04:04] <len-dt> Take Neil Young... Old Man Vs Hey Hey, My My
[04:05] <len-dt> They are saying two completely different things and are two different styles.
[04:10] <FloatingGoat> yeah?
[04:14] <len-dt> Hey music is art, some paint with oils and others watercolours.... and some with film
[04:15] <len-dt> There is no such thing as a set of rules... just do this and it will work... unless you are doing vocal gymnastics for Idol
[04:17] <len-dt> What do you do on stage? start with that.
[04:18] <len-dt> Then listen... maybe you will get an idea to change something... so try it. If it sounds better keep it.  Or does something distract?
[04:24] <len-dt> There is nothing wrong with recording something and deciding not to use it later.
[05:31] <FloatingGoat> yeah i guess
[05:31] <FloatingGoat> it just takes time and effert
[07:25] <drupin> VLC is giving me flickering. very minute flashes...
[08:36] <drupin> how can i play video files in vlc
[10:15] <velho> http://www.linuxdsp.co.uk
[10:21] <jablo> Hi I am trying to make puredata work with Jack with no luck. Every time I select "jack" in puredata, puedata locks up completely.
[10:22] <ailo> jablo: Did you try starting jack first?
[10:23] <ailo> And if that still doesn't work, try this in a terminal (after starting jack): pd -jack
[10:24] <ailo> You can even do: pd -jack channels 2 -alsamidi
[10:24] <jablo> I start jack with qjackctl fist, yes. I'll try your command lines, need to do some "kill"s first though.
[10:24] <ailo> Ah, sorry. -channels
[10:27] <jablo> 1) Start jack; 2) pd -jack -channels 2 -alsamidi; 3) Pureadta window shows up with a big "Audio Error".
[10:28] <jablo> Still - setting dsp and making a small "osc~ 440" --> "dac~" gives sound.
[10:28] <jablo> So I'd say - thanks for your help.
[10:28] <jablo> Apparently I need to start puredata from the command line.
[10:31] <ailo> jablo: Did you make sure to choose number of inputs and outputs when choosing jack from the pd menu?
[10:32] <ailo> jablo: Also, don't forget that even if you have a low latency with jack, you'll need to set pd's latency low too, for the non-audio operation (such as midi)
[10:32] <jablo> Yes and no - puredata  locks up as it displays the jack audio configuration menu
[10:32] <ailo> jablo: Which OS and release is this?
[10:34] <jablo> Ubuntu Studio, Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS, uname 3.2.0-23-lowlatency
[10:34] <jablo> x86_64
[10:36] <ailo> jablo: You might like to try pd-extended instead. https://launchpad.net/~eighthave/+archive/pd-extended
[10:36] <jablo> ICE1712 - Hoontech SoundTrack Audio DSP24
[10:36] <jablo> Ok I'll try and look at that.
[10:36] <ailo> Those are older, but should work
[10:36] <ailo> There's also the beta of pd-extended..
[10:37] <jablo> I'm still trying to get the pd patch you or (who was it?) sent me the other day, to detect sound and trigger a bass drum from hydrogen
[10:37] <ailo> jablo: Ah, yeah. That was me
[10:38] <ailo> Well, pd vanilla should do that well enough.
[10:38] <ailo> There's something weird about the jack interface only when starting it.
[10:39] <jablo> Since I got sound out of puredata through jack when starting it on the command ...
[10:39] <ailo> pd-extended includes loads of extra libs, as well as having a more pleasant look
[10:40] <ailo> jablo: You need to make sure alsamidi is enabled. If you don't see pd in qjackctl alsa midi tab, enable the alsamidi from the pd menu
[10:40] <ailo> When running the patch, you want to have dsp on, and needless to say, the audio and midi ports properly connected
[10:41] <ailo> After making sure it works, you'll want to reduce latency as well
[10:41] <jablo> When I load the patch - seems that puredata locks up again. The window with the flow is unresponsive, can't move things around.
[10:41] <jablo> Cant' open puredata audio preferences
[10:41] <jablo> so - something isn't working well
[10:42] <jablo> jackd latency is 2.9ms
[10:42] <jablo> 64 sample blocks
[10:42] <ailo> Try reducing jack latency
[10:42] <ailo> Just for testing
[10:42] <ailo> The patch has a auto dsp on
[10:42] <ailo> After starting pd, before opening the patch, try turning dsp opn
[10:43] <jablo> killling things and retrying... brb
[10:45] <jablo> just starting puredata (on the command line, with jack aleady started), puredata continuously spits out:
[10:45] <jablo> damn cutn'paste not working
[10:46] <jablo> watchdog: signaling pd...
[10:46] <jablo> Jack: JackClient::ClientNotify ref = 3 name = pure_data_0 notify = 3
[10:46] <jablo> Jack: JackClient::kXRunCallback
[10:46] <jablo> Jack: JackClient::ClientNotify ref = 3 name = pure_data_0 notify = 3
[10:46] <jablo> Jack: JackClient::kXRunCallback
[10:46] <ailo> What's jacks latency at now?
[10:46] <jablo> still 2.9ms
[10:47] <ailo> Try reducing it just for seeing if pd will start. Also, did you set latency before in pd settings menu?
[10:47] <ailo> If not, all is fine
[10:47] <jablo> I tuned on dsp, then load patch. Puredata locks up before the patch is loaded.
[10:48] <jablo> yes i checked that pd latency (block size) is 64 like jack
[10:48] <ailo> You can set blocksize also from the commandline. pd --help gives you an idea
[10:49] <ailo> I'd try with a much larger blocksize to see if it will start
[10:49] <ailo> On both jack and pd
[10:49] <jablo> ok.
[10:51] <ailo> I run pd with 64 frames myself, but I don't use vanilla pd
[10:51] <jablo> 512 - seems to be working a bit better
[10:52] <jablo> Afte the patch loads, shouldn't the window be alive - ie, I should be able to highlight, click and move the blocks aoround?
[10:52] <ailo> You need to be in edit mode for that
[10:52] <jablo> YES!
[10:52] <ailo> Ctrl + E
[10:52] <jablo> I am SO new to puredata. Hate it. I'm a programme, not a mouser :)
[10:53] <jablo> *programmer
[10:53] <jablo> Hmm. I don't see puredata in jacks midi pane.
[10:54] <ailo> There's no jack midi for pd
[10:54] <ailo> So, you'll find it in alsa midi
[10:54] <ailo> If you enabled alsamidi, that is
[10:54] <jablo> Ok, let me be precise here: I see puredata in jack "audio" pane, but not in jack "MIDI" pane nor in jack ALSA pane.
[10:55] <jablo> Woups, now it's there
[10:55] <jablo> Ahha. So - I should be ready to hook up Ardour --> puredata --> hydrogen.
[10:56] <jablo> And get a decent drum bass sound whenever my badly recorded bass drum sounds.
[10:56] <jablo> With 512 sample blocks, probably a bit time skewed - but that's for later.
[10:56] <ailo> The [bonk~] object works pretty well without any arguments, but it can be tuned. To see help for objects, just right-click and choose help
[10:57] <jablo> Thanks. Yes. I'll get some tea, play around with this and possibly be back.
[10:57] <jablo> You are very helpful.
[10:57] <ailo> np
[10:58] <jablo> Other question - are you guys using ubuntu studio? and using -generic, -lowlatency or -realtime kernels?
[10:58] <ailo> I use -lowlatency
[10:59] <jablo> k
[10:59] <ailo> Haven't used an -rt since Ubuntu Natty
[10:59] <jablo> -generic was completely unusable to me. even with i think 1024 block i got more noise than sound
[11:00] <ailo> I was on puredyne 9.10, based on Ubuntu 9.10, which had an -rt kernel in the main repo. That one was pretty ok. Since 11.04 I started using -lowlatency instead. Those kernels are actually a bit better on performance
[11:01] <ailo> I mean, the ones on 11.04 and perhaps 11.10
[11:01] <jablo> That's what I read too.
[11:01] <ailo> Here's a howto I made on building an older -lowlatency kernel on a newer release https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildOldLowlatency
[11:03] <ailo> I haven't yet prepared a production system for my pd patches, which are quite extensive and used with our band. I will probably want to try the older kernel
[11:03] <ailo> I only tried it quickly when I made the howto, and it seemed more responsive
[11:03] <jablo> I just grabbed a -lowlatency i had in synaptic package manager
[11:03] <ailo> Since 12.04, there's a lowlatency in the main repo
[11:04] <ailo> But, we were testing kernels already a year earlier
[11:04] <jablo> Ah.
[11:04] <ailo> 2.6.37 was very nice, but 2.6.38 was the first to support the rtirq script
[11:05] <ailo> Another piece of -rt that has gotten into the main kernel source
[11:06] <jablo> HEY, puredata is doing something to my sound.
[11:07] <jablo> theree's a "velocity" thingie that changes values in step with the music!
[11:08] <ailo> Not sure what you mean
[11:09] <jablo> I connected ardour (bass durm track) to the puredata patch. And started playback in ardour.
[11:09] <ailo> The noteout is given a message: note 30, velocity $1. Velocity is based on the volume that [bonk~] object
[11:09] <ailo> Missing words there, but you get the point
[11:09] <jablo> Yes that's what I figured. So, since the velocity object moves, puredaata hears the sound, pocesses it... DOES something.
[11:09] <jablo> hooking up to hydrogen now.
[11:09] <ailo> It doesn't do anything with the sound. It only outputs midi
[11:10] <ailo> There's no audio out on the patch
[11:10] <jablo> Nono fine, I want a midi signal into hydrogen.
[11:10] <jablo> Yes. There'a a small blinking "midi in" thing now in hydrogen... now... sound...
[11:11] <jablo> AND it's actually hooked up to the bass drum... wow.
[11:14] <jablo> Amazing.
[11:14] <jablo> Hydrogen is playing the bass drum now.
[11:14] <jablo> Sound awful though
[11:15] <jablo> But that's the hydrogen drum set AND filtering in bonk~. Wow wow wow.
[11:17] <ailo> jablo: Another thing you can do, if you want to be more advanced, is used pd as the sample player
[11:17] <ailo> But, that'll make you need to learn how to make pd patches
[11:18] <ailo> You get a bit more control, but I gather that is probably not needed in your case
[11:20] <jablo> A gate on the drum track has fixed this for now.
[11:21] <ailo> jablo: [bonk~] has more options in it's right outlet. You might want to look into that.
[11:21] <jablo> Amazing - now I have the sound of a hydogen bass drum synchronously playing with our recorded track
[11:22] <jablo> Thanks - I'll definitely look into this. This is a fabbatastic proof of concept!
[11:23] <jablo> Going to use this trick and make an updated set of music-minus-one mixes for the band. Wee hee :-D
[11:26] <jablo> bonk~ help says something about it working on 256 sound samples at a time. So probably one sholdn't set jack block size lower thatn 256
[11:45] <ailo> jablo: Nah, it works on lower setting too
[11:45] <ailo> As I said, I use it at 64
[11:46] <ailo> pd's internal block size is 64 by default, I believe. This may not be related to audio latency
[11:46] <ailo> Try reducing latency using the -audiobuf in ms instead
[11:47] <ailo> Or, data latency, not audio latency. Audio latency is controlled by jack
[12:18] <jablo> Ailo, I have one more queestion. What I have now with the bonk~ puredata ptach is very useful. It does, however, at times generate some extra spurious notes (bleeding from snare drum into bass drum mike). So I would like it to limit the number of notes it outputs.
[12:18] <jablo> and threshold setting comes to mind. But I don't understand the help - do I add a box called threshold, or ... ?
[12:24] <ailo> jablo: You either create the object with arguments, like [object arg1 arg2]
[12:24] <ailo> jablo: Or, you give it messages, using the message object.
[12:25] <ailo> jablo: Adding a message is done either from the edit menu, or Ctrl + 2
[12:25] <ailo> You can type whatever you want in a message, and that will be outputted from its outlet to anything its connected to, when you click it
[12:26] <jablo> so if i add messgae, and type "thresh 2.5 5" that should do something to bonk~ ?
[12:26] <jablo> oh yes, the help displays the same icon as message. oh.
[12:26] <ailo> Yea
[12:26] <jablo> (as I said: I'm a pogrammer, not a mouser/guie'er. sry.)
[12:28] <jablo> Thanks.
[12:29] <ailo> In the patch you have, there were two messages. One for the [noteout] object, and one to start pd. Anything after ";" in a message is sent somewhere, in this case "pd". The first word in the list identifies where it's sent
[12:29] <ailo> One to start dsp, sorry
[12:29] <jablo> Ah, i was wondering what the "loadbang" --> "; pd dsp 1" was for.
[12:30] <ailo> There are the [send] and [receive] objects. You can use those too
[12:31] <jablo> I must say - it's really working extremely well. Just using you patch and some fiddling with the low pass + aggressive gating on the sound track, hydrogen does exactly what it should, and feeding back into ardour all sound samples are nicely lined up. Timing is perfect.
[12:31] <ailo> I use the [bonk~] object with a couple of trigger pads.  I have never really combined computer + music (my 2 great hobbies, and computers my work too).
[12:33] <jablo> I can see where you could do some really neat things... controlling... yeah, well, anything - just from your music.
[12:33] <ailo> [clip 0 127] just makes sure the output from [bonk~] is within the midi velocity range. Variables in messages, like [30 $1( will be filled with whatever you push it.
[12:34] <ailo> It doesn't take a lot of time to whip something up on pd, creating both midi, audio and gui interfaces
[12:35] <ailo> jablo: If you want to find out more, I suggest looking into the manual in the help browser
[12:36] <ailo> Well, the part that's called "Pure Data" in the manual, is what I mean
[12:37] <ailo> in the browser, not the manual. Jeez
[12:37] <ailo> Anyway, I'm going cyclink. First day with no wind for ages
[12:38] <jablo> have a nice trip.
[12:42] <ailo> jablo: One good pointer is to use the [print] object a lot. Connect anything to print, and you see the output in the console
[12:42] <ailo> Ok, going now
[18:27] <pandoras> hello :D
[18:27] <pandoras> have troubles with jack and D-Bus
[18:28] <pandoras> cannot connect to socket, can't find some useful infos on the web
[18:33] <ailo> pandoras: Standard Ubuntu Studio install?
[18:33] <ailo> If you started jack, and it failed before, it could be running. The default setting for qjackctl is to start jackdbus
[18:33] <ailo> To kill jackdbus, do: killall -9 jackdbus
[18:33] <pandoras> alio, yes
[18:34] <pandoras> mom
[18:34] <ailo> Sometimes stopping jack does not stop jack.  I usually just kill it, and it respawns
[18:37] <ailo> pandoras: Make sure qjackctl is set to use a device you know works
[18:38] <ailo> So, I do: killall -9 jackdbus, killall pulseaudio. And then try jack again.
[18:38] <ailo> pandoras: What kind of device are you using with jack?
[18:39] <pandoras> ok, now its running
[18:40] <pandoras> the standart-device was (default) and not hw:2
[18:40] <ailo> pandoras: Every time you boot, the devices might shift order
[18:40] <pandoras> im using a PCI-Terrasoniq TS-22 Studio-card
[18:40] <pandoras> ailo, should only happen, when a new device plugged in
[18:40] <ailo> pandoras: No
[18:41] <ailo> The devices are not listed in order
[18:41] <ailo> The order can change at each boot
[18:41] <ailo> pandoras: If you want to make sure qjackctl is always set to use the card you like, use the name, instead of the number.
[18:42] <ailo> If I do: cat /proc/asound/cards
[18:42] <pandoras> i had a roommate, and his xsever was not working anymore, because he has set the fix BUS-ID for the card.
[18:42] <ailo> This is my device: 2 [M66            ]: ICE1712 - M Audio Delta 66
[18:42] <ailo> In qjackctl, I write: hw:M66
[18:42] <ailo> Instead of hw:2
[18:43] <pandoras>  2 [PCI            ]: ICE1724 - Terrasoniq TS22 PCI
[18:43] <pandoras>                       Terrasoniq TS22 PCI at 0xec00, irq 18
[18:43] <pandoras> that means only type "PCI" as setting?
[18:43] <ailo> hw:PCI
[18:44] <ailo> Try that. Should work. You type it in manually
[18:44] <pandoras> thx, very useful to know
[18:44] <pandoras> i figured out how the midi controlers of my keyboard with Ardour works :D
[18:46] <pandoras> do you know if yoshimi does support midi-mapping-controller?
[18:46] <ailo> I've never tried using midi devices to control ardour, but I assume it's mostly about assigning the right midi ctrl value, and channel to whatever you want to control
[18:47] <ailo> Never heard of midi-mapping-controller
[18:47] <pandoras> i mean put a midi controller to any parameter
[18:48] <ailo> I think qmidiroute might be helpful, if you can't create a template, or save settings in the program you want to use
[18:48] <pandoras> zynAdd/Yoshimi is so amazing and kickass
[18:48] <pandoras> sad that important features are missing
[19:41] <pandoras> ailo, kthxbye


[00:57] <emgent> @schedule
[00:57] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 19 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team
[20:00] <Keybuk> mdz: ping?
[20:01] <mdz> Keybuk: I am on a conference call
[20:01] <mdz> Keybuk: and I doubt we can expect sabdfl
[20:02] <Keybuk> the one item to discuss today is your own, Tracker :-)
[20:02] <mdz> Keybuk: there is another, actually, which is also mine
[20:02] <Keybuk> I do not see that one?
[20:03] <Keybuk> well, let me introduce the first item and see if anybody would like to discuss it
[20:04] <Keybuk> Tracker consumes a lot of resource, it makes the system slow and unresponsive, and isn't yet useful enough to counter that
[20:04] <Keybuk> the new version makes some improvement, but it's a small step across a large chasm
[20:05] <Keybuk> the suggestion is to disable tracker by default for 8.04
[20:05] <Keybuk> and assumedly remove the deskbar-applet by default too
[20:05] <Keybuk> seb128: thoughts?
[20:08] <Keybuk> ...
[20:09] <seb128> Keybuk: though one, I don't use tracker a lot but I can't say how much that's true for our userbase
[20:09] <seb128> I would like to get user feedback on whether the new version makes things better (it's supposed to pause when user use the keyboard or mouse)
[20:10] <seb128> and maybe that's worth to change the default settings from faster indexing to low ressources use
[20:11] <pochu> I've just got a mail from bug 144434 with good feedback wrt 0.6.6. Don't know whether that's a general case or not though
[20:11] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 144434 in tracker "ignored paths and file patterns should not only be ignored while indexing but also when searching" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144434
[20:12] <Keybuk> I don't really have any opinion there
[20:12] <Keybuk> and this is going to be difficult without mdz
[20:12] <mdz> I'm sorry
[20:12] <mdz> I'm almost finished here
[20:13] <seb128> do we have some way to do user pools to know how many of them find tracker useful for example?
[20:15] <pochu> there's ubuntuforums' polls...
[20:16] <mc44> you could let people vote on brainstorm.ubuntu :)
[20:16] <mdz> Keybuk: I'm finished now
[20:17] <mdz> I have pretty bad experiences with tracker
[20:17] <stgraber> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/46/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/278/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3512/
[20:17] <mdz> on my desktop, it seems to reindex continuously even when I don't do anything
[20:17] <seb128> mdz: did you open bugs about that? how responsive upstream has been?
[20:18] <mdz> seb128: I have talked with jaimemcc and Keybuk about the various issues I have had
[20:18] <mdz> jaimemcc has been very responsive
[20:18] <seb128> you still have those using 0.6.6?
[20:18] <mdz> he usually says that the next version will fix everything :-)
[20:18] <seb128> right
[20:19] <mdz> I also see crashes from tracker-extract
[20:19] <mdz> and the programs it calls
[20:19] <mdz> like imagemagick
[20:19] <pochu> 0.6.6 is supposed not to index when you move the mouse or type in the keyboard, isn't that working?
[20:20] <Keybuk> I had a fun one where imagemagick crashed and left a gif file in my home directory
[20:20] <Keybuk> which tracker promptly attempted to index, spawned imagemagick, that crashed, and updated that gif file
[20:20] <Keybuk> ad infinitum
[20:20] <mdz> it also seems to read very large binary files in my home directory
[20:20] <mdz> which aren't useful to index
[20:20] <Keybuk> pochu: hard to tell; I know that today, with latest updates, reboot, etc.
[20:20] <mdz> e.g. backing up a DVD causes it to scan all 7+ GB of data, even though there aren't any keywords in it
[20:20] <seb128> Keybuk: I think that's supposed to be fixed in the new version
[20:21] <Keybuk> my laptop is subjectively much slower and laggy with tracker running than without
[20:21] <seb128> my gut feeling was that tracker is not that useful
[20:21] <Keybuk> tracker could be incredibly useful
[20:21] <mdz> I think it's only useful to people who discover it and want to use it
[20:21] <Keybuk> or at least, a metadata index of the filesystem
[20:21] <seb128> but I changed nautilus to build without it one week ago and I got some user complains on the bug
[20:21] <Keybuk> but I think that the current implementation is just too damned heavy
[20:21] <mdz> which is fine, except that everyone pays a cost for it even if they don't use it
[20:22] <mdz> one suggestion would be to enable indexing the first time the user tries to search
[20:22] <mdz> isn't that what windows does?
[20:22] <Keybuk> mdz: I think you have to explicitly turn on search in Windows
[20:22] <seb128> no idea what windows does, I didn't know it was doing indexing
[20:22] <jcastro> in vista the indexer is on ootb
[20:22] <pochu> the tracker-extract crashes are due setrlimit, which sends signals to the process which dump the core and thus apport will pop up
[20:23] <pochu> I've added a hook so that tracker tells you the reason and they aren't reported. That's not ideal though
[20:24] <mdz> how about we enumerate some options
[20:25] <mdz> - disable indexing by default
[20:25] <mdz> - don't install tracker by default
[20:25] <mdz> - leave things as they are
[20:26] <Keybuk> what's the difference between disabling indexing and watching?
[20:26] <pochu> watching will keep indexing after the initial index IIRC
[20:26] <Keybuk> indexing can be off but watching on
[20:26] <mdz> I think indexing means index on login or similar
[20:26] <Keybuk> does that mean anything, or is it just a missing set_sensitive(FALSE) ?
[20:26] <mdz> and watching is incremental (inotify)
[20:27] <mdz> but I haven't read the code and am guessing
[20:27] <seb128> Keybuk: what does watching without indexing do?
[20:27] <mdz> seb128: I think that's what he's asking
[20:28] <Keybuk> seb128: with Watching but not Indexing, the last thing trackerd says is "starting indexing"
[20:29] <Keybuk> but admittedly doesn't seem to do much else
[20:29] <mdz> I just tried disabling indexing (which caused trackerd to be restarted and the status icon to disappear) and re-enabling it (which didn't cause the icon to reappear)
[20:30] <mdz> I think tracker is progressing very well, but just isn't on track to be ready for 8.04
[20:30] <mdz> it will take some time to get there
[20:31] <pochu> EnableIndexing=BOOLEAN
[20:31] <pochu> Enable or disable the indexer.
[20:31] <Keybuk> disabling indexing seems the right course to me, then it's trivial to turn back on if users want it
[20:31] <pochu> EnableWatching=BOOLEAN
[20:31] <pochu> Enables or disables watching of directories, i.e. re-index files when
[20:31] <pochu> they change.
[20:31] <Keybuk> and it might even be easy to enable it on search
[20:31] <pochu> hopefully that makes things clearer :)
[20:32] <pochu> (that's from tracker.cfg(5) btw)
[20:32] <mdz> Keybuk: sabdfl inbound
[20:32] <seb128> ok, so let's keep tracker installed but don't use it by default?
[20:32] <sabdfl> 'allo 'allo, all
[20:32] <mdz> seb128: if indexing is disabled and the user tries to do a search, will it let them easily enable it?
[20:32] <mdz> sabdfl: topic is tracker for 8.04, go/no-go
[20:33] <sabdfl> is that the only matter at hand? nothing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[20:34] <seb128> hey sabdfl
[20:34] <mdz> sabdfl: when we're done with that, it's time to talk about sparc
[20:34] <sabdfl> mdz, could you paste me the conversation to date, or mail it?
[20:34] <mdz> sabdfl: will mail
[20:34] <sabdfl> thanks
[20:34] <mdz> sabdfl: done
[20:35] <seb128> mdz: I think it's autoactivated for the session using dbus activation but that's not a setting change, so it'll not be available after next login, should be easy to change if we want to though
[20:35] <mdz> seb128: that seems like the best compromise
[20:35] <mdz> we want to make it available to people who use it, but without intruding on users who don't know it exists
[20:35] <seb128> how do we expect users to use it though?
[20:35] <seb128> using the tracker interface from the menu?
[20:36] <seb128> or do we still want to list the deskbar applet choice?
[20:36] <mdz> seb128: the deskbar item is pretty unintrusive
[20:36] <mdz> it's just one in a long list of search shortcuts
[20:36] <mdz> (I wish it were more prominent, in fact)
[20:36] <seb128> well, the issue is still that user might just try it without knowing what they do and enable tracker
[20:37] <seb128> is that alright, or do we want to prevent that too?
[20:37] <sabdfl> is the deskbar applet useful without tracker?
[20:37] <seb128> sabdfl: I was wondering if it's really useful too, I don't use it personally
[20:38] <seb128> it's impact a bit on login speed but isn't too much of a nuisance otherwise
[20:38] <mdz> sabdfl: it does web searches etc.
[20:38] <seb128> and there is quite some user enjoy it apparently
[20:38] <seb128> enjoying
[20:38] <sabdfl> i like the meme of web-search-without-web, but i don't know if we can yet do that justice
[20:39] <sabdfl> what is the UI like to "turn on indexing of your files" if we disable it by default?
[20:40] <Keybuk> System -> Prefs -> Search and Indexing -> Enable
[20:40] <seb128> we have a system, preferences, tracker menu item
[20:40] <seb128> what Keybuk wrote ;-)
[20:42] <sabdfl> ok, then i'm +1 disabling tracker by default, and +1 leaving deskbar in place for the moment
[20:43] <Keybuk> aol
[20:44] <seb128> I'm not a firefox user but the deskbar applet changes mentioned it not being compatible with firefox 3, did anybody try using it on hardy?
[20:45] <seb128> it impacts on login speed and I'm not sure how useful it is without firefox bookmarks, etc integration
[20:45] <Keybuk> I'm +1 for disabling indexing by default
[20:45] <Keybuk> and happy to leave deskbar-applet to seb's discretion
[20:45] <mdz> I agree
[20:46] <seb128> does anybody know if we got good press feedback in gutsy for using deskbar?
[20:46] <mdz> I didn't read much which highlighted it
[20:46] <mdz> but the functionality will still be there and easy to enable
[20:46] <seb128> if it doesn't work with firefox I would disable it
[20:46] <seb128> one of the top complain I read about gutsy was the login speed
[20:46] <seb128> and I'm trying to reduce this one
[20:46] <mdz> seb128: do you think upstream will understand why we felt this was necessary, and that we want to continue to support and work with them?
[20:47] <seb128> speaking about tracker or deskbar?
[20:47] <seb128> I don't think it'll be an issue in either case anyway
[20:47] <seb128> I don't think deskbar is enabled on other distros and it's not upstream and they don't expect it especially
[20:50] <seb128> and I don't think that we will have issues with tracker upstreams if we don't let it run by default, they might be a bit disappointed but it'll still be installed and it's true that it lacks desktop integration they can probably understand the issue
[20:50] <sabdfl> we are certainly helping them progress towards ubiquity
[20:51] <Keybuk> ok, I think we have a consensus here
[20:51] <Keybuk> mdz: next topic?
[20:52] <mdz> the sparc port
[20:53] <Keybuk> continue...
[20:53] <mdz> so, the sparc port to date has been maintained by Canonical as a commercial project
[20:53] <mdz> which will not extend to 8.04 LTS
[20:55] <mdz> as such, I propose that it transition to an unofficial port, a la powerpc
[20:55] <sabdfl> +1
[20:56] <Keybuk> +1
[20:56] <mdz> +1
[20:56] <mdz> any questions?
[20:57] <mdz> any other business?
[20:57] <seb128> mdz: will somebody mails the lists about those decisions?
[20:57] <mdz> seb128: I will
[20:57] <seb128> ok, thanks, no other question ;-)
[20:58] <mdz> ok, then, thanks all
[20:58] <mdz> it has been a long day :-)
[21:00] <sabdfl> thanks all
[23:00] <DPic> Hello


[01:05] <ronnietucker> hi all... unless anyone has any other niggles with fullcircle #0, i'd say its ready to go...
[01:05] <ronnietucker> http://files.fullcirclemagazine.org/uploads/issue0.pdf
[01:05] <ronnietucker> Samyel - thanks for the proofread, i've replied to your email   :)
[01:06] <Samyel> sounds good :)
[01:07] <ronnietucker> i'll be starting work on #1 from the end of this month (after I install Feisty) and I expect #1 to be released by the end of May
[01:08] <Samyel> feel free to give me a poke to call my attention to things you want looked at
[01:09] <ronnietucker> thanks Samyel, will do...   :)
[01:54] <rhk_> Is it too late to add stuff to UWN #36?
[02:09] <linuxgeekery-> ^/quit
[08:35] <boredandblogging> argh, where is beuno when you need him?
[08:36] <boredandblogging> jenda, I see we haven't made much progress on the DIY howtos
[08:37] <jenda> erm
[08:37] <jenda> :)
[08:37] <jenda> Yep, true
[08:37] <jenda> I've been a little busy
[08:37] <nixternal> bah!
[08:37] <boredandblogging> i'll try to take another stab at this week
[08:37] <jenda> Dan and I have been planning a session of work on the site today
[08:37] <jenda> (in about 2-3 hours, as soon as he wakes up.
[08:37] <jenda> )
[08:39] <boredandblogging> a little worried about the UWN, don't see beuno or Burgundavia around
[08:39] <Madpilot> burg is on a business trip
[08:39] <Madpilot> not sure when he's back, but harassment via email should work
[08:41] <jenda> boredandblogging: don't worry, only good things should be coming to the UWN now :)
[08:42] <boredandblogging> thats a good idea, I was just wondering if we wanted to list every new derivitive distro that comes along...someone place a link to linuxmint...and the UF council meeting summary is long...not sure we want every team to have such lengthy notes
[08:42] <jenda> I believe beuno is still on the job, and we hope to have some new traffic from the forums soon.
[09:57] <rhkfin> beuno answered my mail about UWN so I'd guess he's around..
[10:06] <Samyel> boredandblogging: Burg is back tomorrow
[10:09] <boredandblogging> Samyel, thanks
[10:09] <Samyel> his hotel doesn't even have wifi, poor guy
[10:25] <rhkfin> At what time UWN is being released, does anyone know?
[10:25] <jenda> rhkfin: quite irregular, usually weekends
[10:26] <jenda> beuno is probably asleep now, but otherwise active.
[10:26] <rhkfin> ok.. It says it'd be today (15th), that's why I asked. But ok, thanks!
[07:29] <boredandblogging> hi beuno
[07:29] <beuno> hey boredandblogging
[07:29] <beuno> hows it going?
[07:30] <boredandblogging> not too much, putting some stuff into the UWN
[07:30] <beuno> I can see  :D
[07:31] <beuno> I'm going to start review all that's on their and then do whatever needs to be done to get it released
[07:31] <boredandblogging> should I go ahead and do the bug stats?
[07:31] <beuno> yeap
[07:32] <boredandblogging> i added a blurb about apport for the community news, couldn't think of anything else
[07:33] <beuno> ah, ok, I'll finish that up then
[07:34] <beuno> ping me when you're done with bug stats
[07:34] <boredandblogging> ok
[07:35] <jenda> beuno!
[07:35] <beuno> jenda!
[07:35] <jenda> hello :)
[07:36] <beuno> mornin  :D   (it's not morning here either, but I just woke up)
[07:36] <jenda> hehe :)
[07:36] <jenda> Actually, so did I :)
[07:37] <beuno> lol
[07:37] <beuno> and you are like a million hours ahead of me
[07:37] <jenda> hehe
[07:37] <jenda> I'm known for taking afternoon catnaps ;)
[07:37] <beuno> I should of partied hareder...
[07:37] <jenda> no parties here, I do that every day ;)
[07:38] <jenda> I found it gives me a lot more awake-fresh-and-ready-to-work time every day.
[07:38] <beuno> aaah, I only do that when I have some sort of female over, and not specificallt for the sleepin...
[07:39] <beuno> any news on diy?
[07:39] <beuno> I saw dan playing around with it a lot
[07:40] <jenda> hha
[07:40] <jenda> yep, we had a session today
[07:40] <jenda> a short one, but still a session
[07:40] <beuno> great
[07:40] <jenda> (he came late and I left early :-D)
[07:41] <beuno> how's the material gathering?
[07:41] <jenda> hasn't budged
[07:42] <beuno> we're going to have to do some recruiting there, won't we?
[07:42] <jenda> we should!
[07:43] <jenda> I'll be busy this next week, and am not sure what'll come after that (exams drawing near)
[07:43] <jenda> but as soon as I know I can handle it, I'll try.
[07:43] <jenda> (brb)
[07:44] <beuno> good
[07:48] <boredandblogging> beuno, bugs are done
[07:48] <boredandblogging> i'm gonna get some lunch, bb in about 45 minutes
[07:48] <beuno> great, I'll do some editing on it then
[07:49] <beuno> ok, have fun
[08:30] <beuno> who's around and wants to proof read the UWN?
[08:30] <beuno> jenda, poningru?
[08:31] <beuno> tonyyarusso?  :D
[08:31] <adamant1988> beuno: Ping me when you want it dugg.
[08:31] <tonyyarusso> beuno: I'm on my way out in a second here
[08:31] <adamant1988> I'll be AFK for a few though
[08:31] <tonyyarusso> well, on my way /away
[08:31] <beuno> tonyyarusso: np
[08:31] <beuno> thanks anyway  :D
[08:32] <tonyyarusso> one of these days..
[08:32] <beuno> adamant1988: great, I'll ping you as soon as I release
[08:32] <beuno> haha
[08:32] <beuno> sunday may not me be best day to release
[08:32] <beuno> it works for me though
[08:34] <jenda> beuno: I might in a few minutes
[08:34] <jenda> that is <2 hours
[08:34] <jenda> :)
[08:34] <beuno> heh
[08:34] <beuno> ok
[08:34] <beuno> I might release before that
[08:34] <beuno> as in  < 15 minutes   :p
[08:35] <jenda> ok
[08:35] <jenda> I won't make it then.
[08:35] <beuno> np. I just wanted to triple check
[08:35] <tonyyarusso> beuno: Herd 6 was cancelled.  RC != Herd 6.
[08:36] <beuno> but wasn't herd 6 cancelled, and the RC delayed?
[08:36] <poningru> yeah
[08:36] <poningru> but rc was going to exist even if herd 6 was there
[08:37] <poningru> I'm going to read it in like 5 mins
[08:37] <tonyyarusso> beuno: correct, but 36 says Herd 6 may be out later this week.
[08:37] <beuno> thanjs poningru
[08:37] <tonyyarusso> beuno: In the Press, second to last, Shuttleworth is not ShuttleWorth.
[08:37] <beuno> tonyyarusso: you're right, removing that
[08:38] <poningru> hehe I always found his name ironic
[08:39] <tonyyarusso> Those are the only two a quick skim shows
[08:40] <beuno> great, thanks tonyyarusso!
[08:40] <beuno> I just updated the last bits
[08:42] <beuno> I'll keep the UWN up for a while so anyone can go through it
[08:43] <beuno> it's the last release before Feisty's out, so...
[08:44] <jenda> kk :)
[08:45] <beuno> somerville32!
[08:45] <somerville32> Make sure to put in the next UWN that I'm now free! :D
[08:45] <beuno> hey there!
[08:45] <somerville32> :)
[08:45] <poningru> wb
[08:45] <beuno> really?
[08:46] <beuno> somerville32: we're releasing in a few minutes, so if you want, you can take a crack at it
[08:46] <beuno> it needs proof reading
[08:46] <beuno> and, well, whatever you'd like to add   :D
[08:46] <somerville32> Welp, I'm just about to go for a shower actually.
[08:46] <somerville32> I'm redoing my room and I have paint all over me.
[08:46] <beuno> ah, right, np
[08:47] <beuno> it's going to be up there a while
[08:47] <poningru> make sure to shower with turpentine
[08:47] <poningru> ;)
[08:47] <somerville32> lol
[08:47] <somerville32> Once I get back, we can start cracking on UWN 37
[08:48] <somerville32> (and I'll approve #36 in the ml queue)
[08:48] <beuno> :D
[08:48] <beuno> that's great, cause Corey isn't around
[08:48] <beuno> we can do a great post-Feisty edition
[08:48] <somerville32> :D
[08:51] <somerville32> Ok, I'm off to my shower. I look forwarding to seeing #36 :)
[08:51] <somerville32> Thanks for keeping things going while I've been gone.
[08:51] <beuno> my pleasure  :D
[08:52] <jenda> somerville32!  There is more to this, I know it!
[09:55] <jenda> it's in the profile
[09:55] <jenda> it's no secret :)
[09:56] <somerville32> It was a secret.
[10:06] <beuno> jenda: who is ryan?   :p
[10:06] <jenda> beuno: founder of Ubuntu Forums :)
[10:06] <jenda> ubuntugeek
[10:07] <jenda> R. Troy
[10:07] <beuno> aah, yes, that guy who doesn't answer my emails
[10:08] <jenda> If my surname was Troy... I'd name all my kids Troy.
[10:08] <jenda> :)
[10:08] <jenda> beuno: :)
[10:08] <jenda> beuno: he is a bit of a scatterbrain, but at times, he can be really cool ;)
[10:08] <beuno> yes, before that he'd been nothing but nice and helpful to me
[10:09] <jenda> He's a man of action - impulsive, kinda - sometimes you suggest something and he just does it the same day, after 5 minutes of thought and deciding it's a good idea - and usually does it much better than you ever expected. And at times you can be prodding him for a year and still get nothing done :)
[10:09] <poningru> ...
[10:09] <jenda> .
[10:10] <poningru> that works soo well
[10:10] <poningru> I can understand that working in a small company
[10:10] <poningru> but when you have to work with other people
[10:10] <poningru> it sucks arse
[10:10] <poningru> I know many people who work like that
[10:10] <beuno> well, I'm not going to prod him for a year, he's the only person who can actually implement it
[10:10] <poningru> and I hate working iwth them
[10:11] <beuno> I went through all the trouble of actually coming up with a way to do it almost trvially
[10:11] <beuno> spent hours talking to launchpad devs
[10:11] <beuno> php coding
[10:11] <beuno> researching...
[10:11] <beuno> at least a "it doesn't seem like a good idea right now" would of been super
[10:12] <beuno> ok, it's out of my system again
[10:12] <beuno> :D
[10:12] <beuno> somerville32: can you get stuff into the fridge too?
[10:13] <jenda> whee, I'm off
[10:13] <beuno> cya jenda!
[10:13] <jenda> 10:13 PM and I'm going out with my best friend :)
[10:13] <jenda> nothing better than Prague at nigt.
[10:13] <jenda> laters
[10:13] <beuno> heh
[10:13] <beuno> cya
[10:13] <jenda>
[10:27] <boredandblogging> beuno, is the UWN officially out?
[10:34] <beuno> boredandblogging: yes it is
[10:34] <boredandblogging> cool
[10:38] <beuno> oh, and btw, somerville32 is going to be around again
[10:38] <beuno> he was the editor before me
[10:41] <boredandblogging> beuno, sounds good


[03:06] <guruprasad> ernstp, the publisher should be unstuck now. If you are still noticing issues, please report them to us on #launchpad.
[07:33] <guruprasad> cjwatson, I fixed the broken publisher (the lp-signing production deployment didn't actually deploy the expected build label till we fixed it) and now the noble suite of your PPA is now dual-signed with its old key and a shiny, new 4096-bit RSA key! 🎉 Thanks again for your help!
[08:48] <cjwatson> guruprasad: Thanks!  The "Technical details about this PPA" section on https://launchpad.net/~cjwatson/+archive/ubuntu/ppa still shows only a 1024-bit key though.
[08:57] <guruprasad> cjwatson, that is expected. The plan is to fully (but incrementally) re-sign all the affected archives and then replace the 1024-bit RSA key in the visible places (UI, API etc.) with the new 4096-bit RSA key so that there is a way to do a smooth transition.
[08:57] <cjwatson> ok
[08:58] <guruprasad> apt, ubuntu-software-properties-common etc. will take care of handling the migration on the client-side from 24.04.1 onwards.


[06:28] <cjwatson> evand: done
[06:29] <cjwatson> cr3: that usually means you forgot to preseed partman-auto/disk, or that the value you gave wasn't a valid device. In feisty it might also mean that you forgot to preseed partman-auto/method to regular.
[06:58] <meren> hi
[07:07] <cr3> cjwatson: hi! thanks for the info, I had actually found a few problems with my preseed file which prevented expert partitionning from kicking. most notably, that the partition lines weren't terminated with a backslash
[07:08] <cr3> cjwatson: I just encountered a problem a second ago with the graphical installer on herd 4: clicking on back makes the next button label become gtk-on-next or somesuch.
[07:09] <cr3> I'll be logging a bug later when I can reproduce it properly
[07:11] <cr3> cjwatson: do you think copying the desktop CD to a partition on the hard drive and then installing from that partition tests the desktop CD properly?
[07:11] <cr3> err, I mean, "booting" from that partition...
[07:17] <meren> i was looking for the file which contains the grub settings (adding other linux installations' kernels into the grub.conf etc.) in the source code of the ubuntu installer, can anyone help me to find that?
[07:20] <cr3> meren: I don't think the installer uses grub, see isolinux/isolinux.cfg
[07:22] <meren> cr3: at the end installer changes the installed systems boot managers configuration file, is that correct?
[07:23] <meren> i'm looking for that part of the code of installer :)
[07:46] <meren> ok. the location of the file that i was looking for is "d-i/packages/arch/i386/grub-installer"
[07:56] <cr3> can the preseed/ubuntu.seed be used to preseed the desktop installation?
[11:03] <evand> cjwatson: thanks!


[02:09] <SpamapS> start xxxx always looks for the job tho.. at least, thats what I thought
[20:08] <hvgotcodes> ive tried to do . /etc/environment and then export avar but my process cannot see the 'avar' variable
[20:31] <ion> set -a first.
[20:31] <ion> Whoops, i missed that you did export the variable.
[20:31] <ion> That’s not the problem then. We need more information.
[21:49] <Keybuk> hvgotcodes: could you pastebin your .conf file?
[22:00] <hvgotcodes> Keybuk: sure
[22:01] <hvgotcodes> Keybuk: https://gist.github.com/80bdf98f03a57fba2538
[22:02] <Keybuk> ah, I see what you did
[22:03] <Keybuk> "." isn't an upstart keyword
[22:03] <Keybuk> it's a shell command
[22:03] <Keybuk> surround everything from that "." to after the exec in a script/end script block
[22:04] <Keybuk> http://paste.ubuntu.com/600007/


[07:00] <dholbach> good morning
[12:57] <wendar> dholbach: it's a patch to pkgme, and I haven't had time to work on it this week. Is there a reason you need it right now? The queue is piling up with submissions that already have PPAs, and that's seeming like a higher priority at the moment.
[12:57] <dholbach> wendar, oh, I just wanted to play around with it a bit and see how it fares
[12:58] <wendar> dholbach: okay, thanks for the enthusiasm :)
[12:58]  * dholbach is totally enthusiastic about pkgme :)
[13:08]  * ajmitch waves
[13:10] <ajmitch> dpm: thanks for the write up of how the app looks now, I guess there are a few issues to solve still
[13:10] <dpm> ajmitch, ah, no worries, glad you found it useful
[13:11] <ajmitch> useful in that we may not be able to drop all the fields just yet :)
[13:15] <ajmitch> I see the 2 reviews that are on the app have the same text
[13:15] <ajmitch> it's just a bit unreadable for me
[13:20] <ajmitch> highvoltage: I've fallen behind on the new submissions as well, so I'll be trying to spend some time on the queue tomorrow
[13:20] <ajmitch> I'd have liked to get apps voted on, but it seems that a few people are busy
[13:21] <highvoltage> ajmitch: yeah
[13:21] <highvoltage> we have no outstanding votes at the moment though, right?
[13:21] <ajmitch> askubuntu-lens
[13:21] <ajmitch> I only got a response from you
[13:22] <highvoltage> hmm, perhaps we should just poke the others again for a reminder on that one. it's easy to forget.
[13:23] <ajmitch> yeah I was going to send out a gentle nag, since I wanted harmonyseq in as well but was waiting to see how the metadata went
[13:25]  * ajmitch spots a recent submission that can probably be rejected juding from the size of the download - lua development tools :)
[13:25] <ajmitch> when I see a download that starts with org.eclipse..., I know it won't be fun :)
[13:26] <highvoltage> hehe
[13:28] <ajmitch> 60MB download, I'm betting that if it could go in, the debian java team would be best to handle it
[13:31] <ajmitch> sorry to distract you from pkg-ayatana, I should head off to bed
[16:25] <jono> hey folks
[16:25] <jono> I just sent an email to the list about a cool app dev competition we are going to be running
[16:25] <jono> we would like a member of the ARB to be on the judging panel
[21:46] <malin> still waiting for this app to be reviwed https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/782/