[06:16] <mlankhorst> RAOF: do you really get a warning about empty replaces/conflicts?
[06:17] <RAOF> mlankhorst: I don't get a warning, no. I was checking the diff.
[06:18] <mlankhorst> is it harmful then? I'd prefer to keep it if conflicts get added in the future
[06:28] <RAOF> It's slightly harmful in that anyone reading the source package is going to have a WTF moment.
[06:29] <RAOF> It's not very much effort to remove, right? I don't mean updating the scripts to remove it, I mean just removing it before upload.
[07:17] <mlankhorst> perhaps but I prefer to keep changes as small as possible :P
[07:17] <mlankhorst> actually no it's hard..
[07:18] <mlankhorst> how do you distinguish Conflicts: \n with Conflicts: \n somepackage, some-other-package, etc
[07:18] <mlankhorst> it has the potential to break other things


[12:03] <Riddell> allee: :)
[12:03] <kozz> ehm, I just ran it
[12:03] <Riddell> kozz: ah well, that's never worked for me
[12:03] <allee> ah, and one digikam core developer left before we can make digikam a native package ;)
[12:04] <Riddell> kozz: fancy seeing if you can get the knetworkmanager to work?
[12:04] <Riddell> kozz: you need a CVS network manager and some other library
[12:04] <kozz> make sure you have NetworkManager running and then run nm-applet
[12:04] <Riddell> libnl
[12:05] <Riddell> kozz: or not feeling adventurous?
[12:05] <kozz> can make a try, url?
[12:05] <Riddell> kozz: get the CVS network manager, their webpage on gnome.org explains it well
[12:06] <kozz> so there is support for kde in the CVS?
[12:06] <Riddell> no, hang on
[12:07] <Riddell> get  http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/libnl-1.0-pre5.tar.gz
[12:07] <Riddell> compile and install and copy the .pc file into the package-config directory
[12:08] <Riddell> then compile and install this http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/knetworkmanager-0.1.tar.gz
[12:08] <Riddell> and let me know if you get it working :)
[12:09] <kozz> right, thanks
[12:59] <Riddell> sebas, _Sime: do kde widgets not work with pykde and qt designer?
[01:25] <kozz> was some work, will continue after some sleep ;)
[01:30] <Riddell> kozz: what did you get done?
[01:33] <kozz> well, managed to compile knetworkmanager after a small modification, now I need to compile the cvs of network manager but that requires a newer version of wireless-tools than are available in the repos so
[01:33] <Riddell> well if you have knetwork manager compiled that should be ok
[01:33] <Riddell> maybe the network manager in the repos is newer than when I tried
[01:33] <kozz> it didn't work to run with version 0.4.1 of network-manager at least
[01:34] <kozz> the one in the repos
[02:20] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, you still about?
[02:20] <seth_k|lappy> I know it's late there
[02:20] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: yes
[02:20] <Riddell> got a meeting in 40 minutes
[02:20] <seth_k|lappy> ah good
[02:20] <seth_k|lappy> I'm fixing polyester, sistpoty had one comment. It's a trivial change, so shouldn't be much to review. I'm reuploading shortly, but I'll need the advocate again
[02:21] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: what was the comment?
[02:21] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, he didn't like orig being changed, so I added a clean:: rule instead
[02:22] <seth_k|lappy> which I agree with, in hindsight
[02:24] <Riddell> hmm, right
[02:24] <seth_k|lappy> I just finished building it again to make sure it was still correct
[02:24] <seth_k|lappy> works fine, so uploading
[02:24] <Riddell> I always change the .orig, as do debian-qt-kde packagers, but MOTU don't seem to like that
[02:31] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1394
[02:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: http://netswitch.tuxfamily.org/en/index.html
[03:00] <Tonio_> qt frontend in the work, very, very interesting ;)
[03:01] <Tonio_> Riddell: and it doesn't manage to work only with wifi like wlassistant, but with everything :)
[03:03] <Tonio_> a sudo mode for ubuntu is already in it ;)
[03:03] <Tonio_> hehe
[03:06] <Riddell> all these network tools, none that really work well
[03:07] <Riddell> distro meeting in #ubuntu-meeting if anyone is interested
[03:13] <Riddell> Hobbsee: it's a tight schedule on those meeting so watch but don't interupt on channel is the usual rule
[03:13] <Hobbsee> Riddell: no problems - i tend to lurk anyway
[03:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: I don't remember who in kubuntu-fr tested it, but it was aparently working really well....
[03:17] <Tonio_> anyway, it has to be tested deeply when the qt version is out
[03:17] <Riddell> yes
[03:18] <Tonio_> we will find a good one one of these days ;)
[03:19] <Tonio_> anyway I'm surprised that there is no guidance tool for the network actually...
[03:19] <Tonio_> it should be hard to do in python, compared to some already released tools
[03:21] <Riddell> well we have knetworkconf
[03:21] <Riddell> which is C++ on perl
[03:22] <Tonio_> yes, and interesting because it take advantage of gnome settings tools
[03:22] <Tonio_> but not very convenient for wireless....
[03:22] <Riddell> no
[03:22] <Tonio_> but without those bugs
[03:22] <Tonio_> it could be convenient
[03:22] <Tonio_> gnome-system-tools sorry ;)
[03:23] <Tonio_> networkmanager is a very interesting project also
[03:23] <Tonio_> netswitch is the same king of tools that networkmanager
[03:24] <Tonio_> except that the developpment seems to go much quicker....
[03:24] <Tonio_> Riddell: I've read that the packages version frozen for dapper is in 2 weeks only, is that right ?
[03:25] <Riddell> yes
[03:25] <Riddell> not sure when universe upstream freeze or new package freeze is
[03:25] <Tonio_> damn, I need to poke motus for my packages hehe
[03:25] <Riddell> Tonio_: please poke me if there's anything I can do
[03:26] <Tonio_> Riddell: you already advocated them, but you're the only one
[03:26] <Tonio_> ho Riddell , I will be in the next CC meeting
[03:26] <Tonio_> finally I will ;)
[03:27] <Tonio_> that means that if for example we have in 2 months a qt version of netswitch, and that it works perfectly, It will not go in dapper ?
[03:27] <Tonio_> sad.....
[03:27] <Lathiat> netswitch?
[03:28] <Lathiat> ah, url above
[03:28] <Tonio_> Lathiat: a network configuration tool that looks very promissing according to the people that have tested it
[03:28] <Riddell> Tonio_: no, that's far too late for dapper but perfect for dapper+1
[03:28] <Tonio_> it has a command line, and a gtk frontend, and a kde one is in the work
[03:29] <Tonio_> Riddell: anyway, breezy had too many bugs, so if a sooner frozing is the solution, that has to be done :)
[03:29] <Riddell> yes, that's the idea
[03:29] <Tonio_> I assume the goal is to spend tha maximum time debugging... vista about to be released, I gess ;)
[03:30] <Tonio_> Riddell: the two profiles will be ready for tomorrow evening
[03:30] <Tonio_> for konq
[03:30] <Tonio_> then I'll manage to finish the icon for mornfall, but that takes time...
[03:31] <Riddell> Tonio_: great
[03:32] <Tonio_> animation, is really something long....
[03:33] <Tonio_> hum last question, and then I'll leave you alone Riddell
[03:33] <Tonio_> no next version of adept or dapper then ?
[03:33] <Riddell> I don't understand?
[03:34] <Tonio_> there is a second version of adept in the work
[03:34] <Tonio_> so I assume is there is a version frozing in two weeks, it'll not be ready
[03:34] <Tonio_> right ?
[03:35] <Riddell> adept isn't upstream
[03:35] <Riddell> so it follows feature freeze, string freeze etc
[03:36] <Riddell> it's an open question whether guidance is upstream any more
[03:36] <Tonio_> what do you mean by "isn't upstream" ?
[03:36] <Riddell> but upstream stuff doesn't follow the 6 month release cycle so we freeze that earlier (but e.g. gnome is excempt because it does)
[03:37] <Riddell> upstream is random packages we include, adept is made for kubuntu so it's not upstream
[03:37] <Riddell> see DapperReleaseSchedule
[03:38] <Tonio_> k
[03:38] <Tonio_>  ;)
[03:38] <Tonio_> so adept and guidance are exceptions, and can be improved even after the freeze
[03:38] <Tonio_> good news
[03:43] <Tonio_> going to bed, good night everyone
[04:12] <Hobbsee> Riddell: is there anything in particular you want tested, at the moment?
[04:13] <Riddell> Hobbsee: testing daily CDs is always welcome
[04:13] <Hobbsee> Riddell: *nods* - i was more meaning in terms of programs, but i'll look into that
[04:16] <Riddell> Hobbsee: you could be the first to test my kickarse port of hal-device-manager to kde
[04:16] <Riddell> http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/kde-hal-device-manager.tar.gz
[04:16] <Riddell> python DeviceManager.py
[04:21] <Hobbsee> could be fun, give me a min
[04:21] <seth_k|lappy> working for me, Riddell
[04:21] <seth_k|lappy> the list on the side jumps around in size though, depending on the length of the text in the right panel, which is annoying
[04:30] <Riddell> Hobbsee: oh yes, give displayconfig a try too
[04:30] <Riddell> in the new guidance
[04:40] <seth_k|lappy> it's in Ubuntu repos
[04:40] <seth_k|lappy> kde-guidance
[04:41] <Hobbsee> ok
[04:44] <Riddell> run through systemsettings
[04:45] <seth_k|lappy> there'll be a new "Display" option under Advanced
[04:45] <seth_k|lappy> btw Riddell, it uses the wrong icon. It should use the standard Display icon
[04:47] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: what does it use?
[04:47] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, I'll screenshot
[04:48] <seth_k|lappy> http://sethkinast.com/tmp/display.png
[04:48] <seth_k|lappy> notice Display icon discrepancy
[04:52] <Riddell> yeah I've seen that
[04:52] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: fancy making up an icon made of that monitor with the X logo on the screen?
[05:00] <Riddell> Hobbsee: where?
[05:01] <Hobbsee> http://kmymoney2.sourceforge.net/index-home.html
[05:05] <Hobbsee> ah, you already did it!
[05:06] <Riddell> I did?
[05:06] <Hobbsee> looks like it
[05:06] <Hobbsee> yep
[05:07] <Hobbsee> oh yeah, that's right, cos i did mine on breezy - took me a while to figure out why i wasnt in the changelog!
[05:11] <seth_k|lappy> sorry about that, updatedb started and destroyed my computer
[05:11] <seth_k|lappy> couldn't even move the mouse
[05:12] <seth_k|lappy> what's a good nicelevel for updatedb? :/
[05:12] <Hobbsee> i feel like an idiot now...
[05:12] <seth_k|lappy> Hobbsee, ? :(
[05:12] <Hobbsee> was in relation to the bit while you were away - i just tried to upgrade an already upgraded kmymoney2 :P
[05:12] <seth_k|lappy> ah
[05:13] <seth_k|lappy> hehe
[05:13] <seth_k|lappy> happens to all of us
[05:13] <seth_k|lappy> I've done it several times
[05:15] <seth_k_> blast it all
[05:15] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, here's that icon for you
[05:17] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, http://www.sethkinast.com/tmp/display/
[05:19] <seth_k|lappy> Hobbsee, did Riddell bed?
[05:19] <Hobbsee> seth_k|lappy: dont know, he didnt say so
[05:23] <seth_k|lappy> speaking of icons the new Katapult icon is six-ways-from-Sunday ugly
[05:26] <Hobbsee> it is!
[05:26] <Hobbsee> down with that horrible icon1
[05:28] <seth_k|lappy> yell at Mez for it, it was his choice to change it
[05:28] <seth_k|lappy> the old one was like 1000x better
[05:28] <seth_k|lappy> at least
[05:29] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: the old KDE one or the old catapult one?
[05:29] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, it was like an old medieval catapult
[05:29] <seth_k|lappy> that one
[05:29] <seth_k|lappy> btw that displayconfig icon is linked above, don't know if you saw it
[05:30] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: thanks for icon, will put it in SVN tomorrow
[05:30] <Riddell> can someone test this for sanity?  http://kubuntu.org/~jr/kde-hal-device-manager.tar.gz
[05:32] <Riddell> http://kubuntu.org/~jr/kde-hal-device-manager_0.1.tar.gz rather
[05:32] <Hobbsee> hehe
[05:32] <Hobbsee> first one was 404'd
[05:39] <Hobbsee> Riddell: stupid question, but how do i install it?  just untar it to a specific place, or compile it?
[05:41] <Hobbsee> hmmm...not compiling...no make file...
[05:41] <Riddell> just untar
[05:41] <Riddell> and run ./kde-hal-device-manager
[05:41] <Hobbsee> ah ha!
[05:42] <Hobbsee> Riddell: works nicely - what are we testing for?
[05:42] <Riddell> just sanity :)
[05:44] <Hobbsee> looks good to me
[05:45] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yep, looks fine to me
[05:45] <Riddell> groovy
[05:45] <Hobbsee> :)
[05:49] <seth_k|lappy> looks good to me to
[05:49] <seth_k|lappy> too
[05:53] <Riddell> http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=33315 ta da
[05:54] <seth_k|lappy> yay
[05:57] <Riddell> wonder if the hal maintainer will accept it
[05:57] <Riddell> however, time for bed
[06:01] <seth_k|lappy> isn't it 5am there Riddell ?
[06:16] <Hobbsee_away> yay Riddell!
[06:16] <Hobbsee_away> bed?  nah!
[06:27] <seth_k|lappy> wb Hobbsee :)
[06:27] <seth_k|lappy> I was going to merge the new superkaramba
[07:39] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1395 :)
[01:39] <jpatrick> Riddell: should I repackage YaKuake and provide a patch for https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/yakuake/+bug/3209 ?
[01:49] <Riddell> jpat|away: is it possible to set an alternative shortcut so there are two?
[01:55] <Riddell> can anyone recreate the timezone problems this guy is having? http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8916
[01:55] <Riddell> I use the timezone kcontrol module and it sets /etc/timezone and /etc/localtime fine
[01:56] <Riddell> I have breezy CDs!
[01:57] <apokryphos> woot
[01:58] <Riddell> if anyone wants some e-mail<EMAIL_ADDRESS>with your postal address
[01:59] <apokryphos> Riddell: are these live/installs or both?
[01:59] <Riddell> apokryphos: just install I'm afraid
[02:00] <apokryphos> I often just burn them for friends, but would be nice to have some more professional ones.
[02:21] <jpatrick> Riddell: not sure
[02:21] <jpatrick> Riddell: It's possible
[02:22] <jpatrick> yes!!
[02:23] <jpatrick> Riddell: AccessKey=F11;F12 ?
[02:30] <jpatrick> hmm.. howto patch it...
[02:34] <Riddell> jpatrick: dunno, does it work?
[02:34] <Riddell> jpatrick: that accesskey will be set somewhere in the code, grep for F12
[02:34] <jpatrick> now there's any idea...
[02:35] <Riddell> although I don't know how you set alternative keys by default
[02:36] <jpatrick> You choose Change Access Key in the menu
[02:38] <jpatrick> ok I've found it in the code
[02:39] <Riddell> yeah I mean don't know how to set them in the code
[02:39] <Riddell> must be possible though
[02:39] <jpatrick> times like this when I wish my C++ skills were better
[02:40] <Riddell> Lathiat: poke
[02:43] <jpatrick> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/491683
[02:43] <jpatrick> I can only think of changing that Key_F12
[02:43] <Lathiat> Riddell: yo
[02:44] <Riddell> Lathiat: CDs are here, shall I send them to your .au address?
[02:44] <tvo> jpatrick: try duplicating lines 4-6 with Key_F11
[02:45] <jpatrick> yes, sir
[02:45] <tvo> maybe rename the second instance to "Access key 2"
[02:45] <tvo> ;)
[02:59] <jpatrick> tvo: excellent it works
[03:00] <tvo> cool :)
[03:00] <jpatrick> now to create a .dif
[03:00] <jpatrick> .diff*
[03:17] <jpatrick> how do I apply a .diff.gz to a dir?
[03:29] <JRe> anyone has already try to compile kdelibs4_snapshot with breezy ?
[03:42] <Riddell> jpatrick: .diff is made when running debuild
[03:42] <Riddell> you put the .orig and .diff together with dpkg-source -x foo.dsc
[03:42] <jpatrick> oh yeah - I forgot
[03:43] <Riddell> jpatrick: look at the docs for KGlobalAccell and its parents, there must be a method for setting the accellarator and alternative
[03:52] <jpatrick> yes, sir
[04:05] <jpatrick> Riddell: is this a valid .diff? http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/491781
[04:06] <jpatrick> that's kubuntu_01_yakuake.diff^
[04:09] <Riddell> jpatrick: yeah, that's one way to do it :)
[04:09] <jpatrick> I'm reading the developer docs
[04:15] <freeflying> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/491794
[04:15] <freeflying> kde3.5 crash under breezy
[04:16] <jpatrick> Riddell: YaKuake fix waiting upload: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1398
[04:16] <Riddell> freeflying: caused by what?
[04:16] <Riddell> Mez: poke, can you apply jpatrick's yakuake fix upstream please
[04:17] <Riddell> freeflying, jpatrick etc, want any kubuntu CDs?
[04:17] <jpatrick> Riddell: I'll have some (to share out :) )
[04:18] <jpatrick> Riddell: only parent KGlobalAccel has is QObject (according to the API reference)
[04:19] <Riddell> jpatrick: e-mail<EMAIL_ADDRESS>with your post
[04:19] <Riddell> postal address
[04:19] <jpatrick> right
[04:19] <freeflying_> Riddell: can not find the reason  of konqueror's crash
[04:20] <jpatrick> freeflying_: it'll probably be fixed in 21 days
[04:20] <jpatrick> KDE 3.5.1!!
[04:20] <freeflying_> Riddell:  kubuntu cd is aailiable now ?
[04:20] <_jjesse> is that from shipit?
[04:20] <jpatrick> _jjesse: no Rideel
[04:20] <freeflying_> jpatrick: in breezy ?
[04:21] <jpatrick> freeflying_: Think so
[04:21] <jpatrick> Riddell*
[04:21] <freeflying_> jpatrick: dose there any works on kde-4 now ?
[04:22] <jpatrick> freeflying_: pardon?
[04:23] <freeflying_> Riddell: how can we get kubuntu cd
[04:23] <jpatrick> freeflying_: by sending your address to him
[04:23] <freeflying_> jpatrick: how about kde-4 for kubuntu
[04:24] <jpatrick> freeflying_: has to be released first
[04:24] <Riddell> freeflying_: I have kubuntu breezy CDs, send me your postal address to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and let me know if it's for just you or a LUG/workplace etc
[04:25] <freeflying_> Riddell: how many CDs can I get
[04:25] <Riddell> freeflying_: I have 8000, but you can't have all of them
[04:25] <jpatrick> wow
[04:26] <jpatrick> Riddell: where's Kubuntu Express being developed?
[04:26] <freeflying_> Riddell: a community in china have asked me for CDs to distribute them all over the universities in China
[04:26] <Riddell> jpatrick: it's not yet, but colin is starting work on ubuntu-express so it'll happen soon
[04:27] <Riddell> freeflying_: excellent, how many do you think would be useful?
[04:27] <jpatrick> Riddell: ok - I'm just interested in helping out
[04:27] <freeflying_> Riddell: may be as much as you can
[04:28] <Riddell> jpatrick: cool, I'll let you know when it starts
[04:28] <Riddell> freeflying_: big box of 500?
[04:29] <freeflying_> Riddell: 1K ?
[04:29] <jpatrick> freeflying_: that ought to wipe out Microsoft there
[04:29] <freeflying_> jpatrick: hmmm
[04:29] <Riddell> freeflying_: how many universities would you send them to?
[04:30] <freeflying_> Riddell:  there are about 28 province in china , and each province have member in the community I mentioned above
[04:31] <freeflying_> Riddell:  every province has about 10-20 universities
[04:32] <Riddell> freeflying_: can you e-mail your postal address (where you can accept a large box) to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:32] <Riddell> I need to check with the post office if they can send something like one or two of these large boxes
[04:32] <freeflying_> Riddell:  sure . Will canoncial  provide us the shipping fee
[04:33] <Riddell> freeflying_: you're China (people's republic) yes?
[04:33] <freeflying_> Riddell: y
[04:34] <Riddell> freeflying_: they'll provice me with the shipping fee, if you can get me high res photographs of receipts they should reimburse me assuming I can find a way to transfer the money back to you
[04:34] <Riddell> s/provice/provide/
[04:35] <Riddell> freeflying_: but this isn't shipit so no postings below the small boxes (around 90 in each box)
[04:35] <freeflying_> Riddell:  no problem
[04:35] <jpatrick> Riddell: no postings below 90?
[04:36] <jpatrick> yo seth_k|lappy
[04:36] <Riddell> freeflying_: how could I get money back to you?  I've no idea how chinese currency works
[04:36] <seth_k|lappy> hey hey jpatrick
[04:36] <Riddell> jpatrick: I can do smaller postings to kubuntu and KDE developers but this isn't shipit so I need to limlit those
[04:36] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: I've provided a patch for the yakuake bug
[04:37] <freeflying_> Riddell: will pay me into my credit card
[04:37] <seth_k|lappy> sweetness jpatrick, is it ppc-only (so that everybody else keeps their nice F12)?
[04:37] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: yes
[04:38] <jpatrick> Riddell: I have no money <- will that be a problem?
[04:38] <seth_k|lappy> jpatrick, all you need is loooooove
[04:38] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: Keys are now F12 and F11
[04:38] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: let's just hope F11 isn't the self-destruct button for PPC
[04:39] <seth_k|lappy> haha
[04:39] <seth_k|lappy> so we should ship a default yakuakerc for ppc only
[04:40] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: I actually patched the source code...
[04:41] <seth_k|lappy> jpatrick, to enable F11 && F12 at all times on all arches?
[04:42] <freeflying_> Riddell:  you'd better pay the custom revenue
[04:42] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: yeah...
[04:42] <seth_k|lappy> or to do the happy thing and F11 -> PPC && F12 -> everything else
[04:42] <seth_k|lappy> hmmm
[04:42] <seth_k|lappy> that's not ideal
[04:42] <seth_k|lappy> don't want to waste another accesskey for 386 etc. users
[04:42] <seth_k|lappy> meh, I dunno
[04:43] <Riddell> freeflying_: there shouldn't be any since they're 0 value but if it happens and you can get me a high res photo of the receipt that should be fine
[04:45] <jpatrick> Riddell: I'll only need a few I think
[04:45] <seth_k|lappy> I'm off for a bit jpatrick; I would suggest investigating the arch-dependent targets in debian/rules and adding a ppc rule to install a custom yakuakerc for ppc only :)
[04:45] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: there is no yakuakerc in the src
[04:46] <seth_k|lappy> jpatrick, that's okay; add one in debian/ and then include a rule to copy it to the correct place
[04:46] <jpatrick> I thought I could do that
[04:46] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, polyester got into archive last night, so I was inspired to do another ;) http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1395
[04:47] <freeflying_> Riddell:  If they need ,I 'll contact you
[04:48] <jpatrick> seth_k|lappy: only yakuakerc goes to ~/.kde/share/config/
[04:48] <jpatrick> nowhere else
[04:49] <jpatrick> Riddell: are these free?
[04:49] <Riddell> jpatrick: the CDs?  yes
[04:49] <jpatrick> oh goody
[04:50] <Riddell> jpatrick: just send me your credit card number for age verification :)
[04:50] <jpatrick> ain't got one
[04:50] <_jjesse> he also needs social security # if you have one of those and date of birth
[04:51] <Riddell> jje: want any CDs?
[04:51] <jje> Riddell: just sent you an email
[04:51] <jpatrick> So I suppose I'm stuck...
[04:53] <Riddell> jjesse: cool, go it
[04:53] <Riddell> jpatrick: I'm joking, please e-mail me your postal address and I'll send you some out at no cost
[04:53] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: want CDs?
[04:55] <jpatrick> Riddell: sent
[04:55] <jpatrick> :)
[04:57] <Riddell> jpatrick: just for you or do you have a LUG/workplace to hand them out?
[04:58] <jpatrick> I could go around giving them out
[04:58] <jpatrick> Gotta a school to pillage as well
[04:59] <jpatrick> and there's the LoCo group
[05:00] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, fun!
[05:00] <seth_k|lappy> Riddell, e-mail CC number, or just query
[05:01] <seth_k|lappy> oh, you'll need my address too
[05:01] <seth_k|lappy> oh, and you don't want cc number either
[05:01] <seth_k|lappy> too early here...
[05:01] <seth_k|lappy> ...can't take humour...
[05:01] <Riddell> seth_k|lappy: e-mail postal address, let me know if it's just for you or if you want a box to hand out
[05:02] <Riddell><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:04] <seth_k|lappy> sent
[05:06] <jpatrick> how big are the boxes?
[05:06] <Riddell> jpatrick: 2kg, about 30cmx15cmx15cm
[05:06] <jpatrick> woohoo
[05:08] <seth_k|lappy> whew, 4.5 pounds and a foot by half a foot
[05:08] <seth_k|lappy> that's a big box
[05:08] <jpatrick> could leave some at the nearest computer store
[05:09] <Tonio_> hi all
[05:09] <seth_k|lappy> college campuses are the best place ever for Linux CDs
[05:09] <jpatrick> hey Tonio_
[05:09] <Tonio_> Riddell: question concerning the profiles in konq
[05:09] <seth_k|lappy> people like anything free, and lots of them are crazy enough to try a wacky CD with dragons on the front
[05:10] <Tonio_> do you want the standard toolbar and address bar on the same line ?
[05:10] <Tonio_> because that causes an issue...
[05:11] <Tonio_> If I do that, I can't use the "context" toolbar
[05:11] <Tonio_> that adds buttons of kdpf while browsing a pdf file for example
[05:12] <Riddell> Tonio_: yes I do
[05:13] <Riddell> why can't we have a separate context toolbar?
[05:13] <Riddell> jpatrick: what are the accents in Carrer Del Tur? De Can Pon?
[05:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: the problem is that depending of the kpart in use
[05:14] <Tonio_> the bar will go from empty to full....
[05:14] <Tonio_> not very easy to place ;)
[05:14] <jpatrick> Riddell: Turo <- accent going to the right
[05:14] <jpatrick> Riddell: Ponc <- little tail like thing
[05:15] <jpatrick> wait a tic
[05:15] <Riddell> cedila :)
[05:15] <Riddell> acute or grave on the o?
[05:16] <Riddell> acute goes up
[05:16] <jpatrick> acute
[05:17] <Riddell> Davies isn't a very Catalonian sounding name
[05:17] <jpatrick> Riddell: that's because I'm British
[05:20] <jpatrick> Riddell: Quarter Welsh, 3/4 English
[05:31] <wambaugh> morning all
[05:34] <Tonio_> hum Riddell last question, are we obliged to have the same rc file for all profiles ?
[05:34] <Tonio_> actually there is only one
[05:34] <Tonio_> konq-kubuntu.rc
[05:35] <Tonio_> I think it could be interesting to make a difference between the filemanagement profile and the web browsing one
[05:35] <Tonio_> don't you ?
[05:36] <JRe> Tonio_: IIRC, it needs some design modification in Konqueror's code to do so
[05:36] <JRe> Tonio_: not all parameter are stocked in the profile
[05:39] <Tonio_> the menu structure is in a file
[05:40] <Tonio_> but curently, it is the same for all profiles
[05:40] <Riddell> Tonio_: do play around with it but I suspect that would cause more confusion for users than anything else
[05:40] <Tonio_> hum........
[05:41] <Tonio_> options usefull for filebrowsing activated with the filebrowsing profile, but not with the web profile...
[05:41] <Tonio_> well, that doesn't sound confusing to me
[05:41] <Tonio_> let's make a test....
[05:41] <Tonio_> if it is not god, let's forget
[05:48] <Riddell> JRe, Tonio_: want some CDs?
[05:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: why not ;)
[05:49] <jpatrick> Riddell: someone's making a http://www.kubuntu-es.org
[05:52] <JRe> Riddell: yes, with pleasure :)
[05:55] <Riddell> Tonio_, JRe: e-mail your postal addresses to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>say if it just for you or if you want a bunch for LUGs etc
[05:55] <JRe> Riddell: ok thanks!
[05:56] <Tonio_> Riddell: thanks, I'll do toonight ;)
[05:59] <jpatrick> Riddell: in kubuntu.org/packages the lastest-* ones was that idea from me?
[06:05] <Riddell> jpatrick: not sure, various people were asking for it
[06:08] <jpatrick> Riddell: maybe: http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=2179.0
[06:22] <jpatrick> lmms: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1280
[07:27] <Riddell> who is volker loechte?
[07:27] <Tm_T> never heard
[07:27] <jjesse> me either
[07:27] <Tm_T> hmm, maybe mailing lists know him
[07:28] <Tm_T> nope
[07:29] <Riddell> he just sent me an e-mail asking for breezy CDs so he must be on this channel!
[07:31] <Riddell> ah hah, Kabelkasper
[07:34] <Tm_T> :)
[07:34] <jjesse> still haven' heard from him
[07:35] <Tm_T> kaapelijaska
[07:36] <Riddell> just had to write one of those German double s beta symbols for the first time in my life, quite breaks the flow of joined-up handwriting
[07:40] <hunger> Riddell: It is not too bad once you get used to it.
[08:27] <hunger> daniels: I noticed some trouble with some of the X manpages yesterday.
[08:28] <hunger> daniels: They got moved from man3x to man3 but the .so entries still point to man3x/whatever.
[08:54] <jpatrick> Riddell: can you accept my lmms? Needs one more MOTU: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1280
[09:03] <Riddell> jpatrick: there's already an lmms from debian now I'm afraid
[09:04] <jpatrick> ah too late :(
[09:04] <jpatrick> you could poke kcontrol-kdmtheme: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1380 :)
[09:13] <jpatrick> Riddell: maybe we could move it to guidence...
[09:16] <Riddell> jpatrick: guidance is python stuff only but it is a candidate for being on the CD
[09:16] <jpatrick> right
[11:28] <jpatrick> Riddell: I made a mistake in the address
[11:28] <jpatrick> Riddell: it's "Turo de Can Ponc 3"
[11:28] <jpatrick> (with the accents)
[11:29] <Riddell> jpatrick: too late!
[11:29] <jpatrick> and I'd like a box to share out
[11:29] <jpatrick> crap
[11:29] <jpatrick> they'll have to track down a Jonathan Patrick Davies
[11:33] <jpatrick> better go now
[11:33] <jpatrick> night guys
[11:33] <sealne> Riddell: how are venue discussions going?
[11:35] <Riddell> sealne: discussion seems to have run out but the guy organising it says he's not asking for a vote yet
[11:35] <Riddell> I think I'll ask why not
[11:36] <sealne> how's it looking?
[11:36] <Riddell> people haven't expressed much preference for specific places other than "not US"
[11:36] <sealne> heh
[11:36] <sealne> does that include quebec?
[11:37] <Riddell> no, quebec isn't in the US :)
[11:37] <sealne> yes i know that :P
[11:37] <sealne> i've driven past it and i have no intention of going to the us so, i'm fairly certain it isn't in the US :)


[08:46] <rodrigo_> morning
[09:03] <micahg> hi rodrigo_
[09:03] <rodrigo_> hi micahg
[09:10]  * micahg had fun uploading his first desktop package
[13:06]  * rodrigo_ lunch
[16:14] <rodrigo_> ok, EOD and EOY for me, so have a nice vacation all
[16:14] <rodrigo_> and see you from the other side next year :)
[16:28] <kenvandine> rodrigo_, have a great holiday!
[16:34] <markuss> hey guys ive a problem with menus duplicating in lucid when i create an item in the menu it pops up somewhere else
[16:34] <markuss> beside untcking the box is there another way to stop this
[16:34] <markuss> as ive a lot of menus and it would take ages to go through one by one
[18:59]  * mterry works on merging gnome-menus
[19:04] <micahg> mterry: are the hyphen-* and hyphenation-* packages intrinsically tied to anything regarding versioning?
[19:04] <micahg> i.e. can we upgrade one to a new upstream w/out upgrading them all
[19:07] <mterry> micahg, I don't know off hand.  Sweetshark might know
[19:08] <ricotz> micahg, hi
[19:09] <micahg> hi ri
[19:09] <micahg> hi ricotz
[19:09] <ricotz> micahg, is it possible to have some firefox/thunderbird stable builds for precise in the ppas?
[19:09] <ricotz> meaning firefox 9.0.1 and thunderbird 9.0
[19:10] <micahg> ricotz: why?  people on precise should be running the betas
[19:10] <ricotz> micahg, i dont like running the earlier thunderbird betas ;)
[19:10] <dobey> mterry: can i bug you to sponsor some "uploads"?
[19:11] <micahg> we need beta coverage to assure our stable releases remain "stable"
[19:11] <mterry> dobey, ok
[19:11] <dobey> mterry: https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntu/precise/ubuntuone-control-panel/ubuntuone-control-panel-2.99.0/+merge/86455
[19:12] <dobey> mterry: https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/precise/ubuntuone-client-gnome/release-2-99-0/+merge/86488
[19:12] <micahg> ricotz: I think I've had more trouble with the later betas than the earlier ones personally :)
[19:12] <dobey> mterry: https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/precise/libubuntuone/release-2-99-0/+merge/86624
[19:12] <ricotz> micahg, i know and understand that, at least an upload of the actual releases would have been nice
[19:12] <dobey> :)
[19:12] <mterry> guh
[19:12]  * mterry startws
[19:13] <ricotz> micahg, yeah, bug can appear everytime
[19:13] <ricotz> micahg, are there packaging differences between oneiric and precise?
[19:14] <micahg> ricotz: now that the betas come a couple days after release, it doesn't pay to waste build time on precise for the stable releases, I can discuss with chrisccoulson about adding it to the {firefox,thunderbird}-stable PPA, but I  think he'll have a similar response
[19:14] <dobey> mterry: the changes probably seem a lot bigger than they actually are, though; new autotools on oneiric seems to have created a huge diff for my two; and the control panel one is mostly changes to the qt UI which isn't packaged yet
[19:15] <mterry> k
[19:15] <micahg> ricotz: shouldn't be, I do hear the argument a little stronger for thunderbird than firefox though, unfortunately, I don't have thunderbird 9 for oneiric yet due to some bzr branch issues which I'll resolve over the weekend probably
[19:15] <ricotz> micahg, yes, thunderbird is what i am more worried about
[19:15] <dobey> mterry: thanks :)
[19:18] <mterry> dobey, so I see that ralsina is usually the distro acceptance person for U1 stuff?
[19:20] <dobey> mterry: huh?
[19:21] <mterry> dobey, I looked at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuEngineering/12.04/UpstreamDevelopment/ProjectTracking
[19:22] <mterry> dobey, I'm not sure in this new Acceptance Criteria world, but maybe this has to go through ralsina?
[19:23] <dobey> mterry: i don't really know what that page means
[19:24] <mterry> dobey, ah, well in an attempt to make precise work all the time, so that teams don't block other teams from getting their work done, there is a renewed focus on automated and manual tests, as well as people responsible for signing off that an upstream is good test-wise and that a given release is ready to enter the distro
[19:26] <dobey> mterry: right; so, these releases are also off a stable-3-0 branch, which we only backport things too after they've been tested in trunk
[19:27] <mterry> dobey, right.  so you as upstream are signing off on them.  but distro also has a sign off step, owned by ralsina
[19:28] <dobey> mterry: what does it mean to sign off on something there?
[19:29] <dobey> mterry: ralsina, not having upload priveleges to any of the packages, probably doesn't make sense to be that person, either, does he?
[19:30] <mterry> dobey, it means to run the automated tests again in a 12.04 environment and run some (manual or automatic) integration tests
[19:31] <mterry> dobey, as for ralsina being appropriate, I don't know.  Let me see who put ralsina down...
[19:31] <dobey> i think it was joshua; but i think someone told him we need to have our projects on that page, and that was all he was told
[19:33] <mterry> dobey, yeah joshua
[19:36] <mterry> dobey, who normally helps with the reviews/packaging?  kenvandine?
[19:36] <dobey> ken, seb
[19:37] <dobey> well, so; that's also going to change in the next few weeks; i am going to propose a new delegated team for the u1 packages, so we don't have to go hunt people down to sponsor our packages all the time
[19:39] <micahg> dobey: you actually want a packageset, I need to fix that wiki page
[19:40] <dobey> yes, and i think a team to own the packageset, no?
[19:41] <micahg> all managed packagesets have associated teams now to make adding people easier, but that's an implementation detail
[19:41] <dobey> right, and the wiki seems to call the combination "delegated team"
[19:41] <micahg> then people can apply for upload rights to the packageset and we just add them to the associated team (but the team part isn't something non-DMB members should really have to worry about)
[19:42] <micahg> dobey: right, I think that's wrong, a delegated team is something like ubuntu-desktop that can approve uploaders on their own
[19:43] <dobey> well the wiki says it can go either way
[19:43] <micahg> right, I need to fix the wiki :), maybe during vacation
[19:44] <dobey> anyway
[19:44] <dobey> back to the problem at hand
[19:44] <dobey> mterry: i guess i can sign off on them, en absentee for ralsina? :)
[19:46] <mterry> dobey, probs not  :)  I can send an email to Jason and cc you to try to find someone else since ralsina can't upload the packages
[19:47] <dobey> ugh
[19:48] <mterry> dobey, the whole point of this is to avoid doing things like cowboying packages in on Fridays before holidays  ;)
[19:48] <dobey> some of them were proposed on tuesday :(
[19:49] <dobey> and we will have a release day on jan 3, as well; the day we all return from holiday
[19:49] <mterry> dobey, well since we apparently don't have a distro person to sign off on it, it could have been proposed a month ago and still blocked on distro readiness
[19:50] <dobey> which is entirely crap, if you are going to have releases every 2 weeks :)
[19:50] <dobey> kenvandine: ^^ sign off on it. you know you want to. it's all good. :)
[19:50] <mterry> dobey, releases every 2 weeks is fine!  you just need to find an actual distro-readiness owner
[19:51] <dobey> me! :)
[19:51] <mterry> until that happens, no ubuntuone releases can enter the archive
[19:51] <mterry> dobey, you're the upstream owner
[19:51] <dobey> mterry: ken is listed in all 3 columns for gwibber
[19:51] <dobey> and pittin in all 3 for jockey…
[19:52] <mterry> dobey, yar, it's a sliding scale of importance and disruptiveness.  Talk to managers if you want to argue about this
[19:53] <dobey> i just want to get the packages in. heck, pretty much all the changes in ubuntuone-client-gnome and libubuntuone, are in precise already anyway :(
[19:53] <mterry> dobey, ?  then what're the merges for?
[19:53] <dobey> the only things that aren't really, are being regenerated with new autotools, adding a -Wno-error=, and version bump.
[19:54] <dobey> mterry: new releases since the patches are included upstream now. and to get us in the habit of having bi-weekly releases
[19:55] <dobey> mterry: there are most likely going to be little to no changes in everything for our releases on jan 3, but we want to build the habit of timed releases, regardless
[19:55] <dobey> we even have milestones on the stable branches for all our releases all the way up to final freeze :(
[19:56] <mterry> dobey, this is all good stuff.  I'm just saying that distro has a new acceptance process and I don't want to short circuit it
[19:57] <kenvandine> mterry, preach it brother!
[19:58] <dobey> i don't either, but i don't want to make worthless releases that users can't test, for 6 weeks, while we try to figure out what the wiki page means. i'm not trying to argue about it, either; but i've spent 3 days this week doing basically nothing but releases. :-/
[20:00] <mterry> kenvandine, do you know who was expected to be the distro sign-off'er for U1 stuff?  Is it you?
[20:01] <dobey> i know rick has been assigning some bugs to kenvandine when we landed some fixes in trunk, to put them in ubuntu
[20:03] <kenvandine> probably me
[20:07] <dobey> kenvandine: can you sign off on the uploads, please?
[20:08] <kenvandine> i would rather not on friday before everyone goes away for a week...
[20:08] <kenvandine> any important fixes?
[20:08] <kenvandine> how risky?
[20:08] <kenvandine> dobey, i thought you were going to propose them to me yesterday?
[20:09] <dobey> kenvandine: did i not link you to them? and you said you were really busy as well
[20:09] <kenvandine> dobey, no... no links
[20:09] <dobey> i think the risk is quite low
[20:09] <kenvandine> i might not have been able to get to it then either
[20:10]  * kenvandine reads scrollback for links
[20:10] <dobey> i can re-paste
[20:10] <dobey> https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntu/precise/ubuntuone-control-panel/ubuntuone-control-panel-2.99.0/+merge/86455
[20:10] <dobey> https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/precise/ubuntuone-client-gnome/release-2-99-0/+merge/86488
[20:10] <dobey> https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/precise/libubuntuone/release-2-99-0/+merge/86624
[20:11] <dobey> also have a new package 'dirspec', and an ubuntuone-dev-tools which depends on it
[20:12] <dobey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/907888 is the bug for dirspec with the files; i don't know if Laney approved/uploaded it though.
[20:12] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 907888 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] dirspec" [High,In progress]
[20:12] <dobey> https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/oneiric/ubuntuone-dev-tools/release-020/+merge/75196 is the dev-tools that depends on it
[20:13] <kenvandine> mterry, the distro signoff person has to be someone from platform right?
[20:14] <dobey> err, no that isn't
[20:14] <dobey> doh
[20:14] <mterry> kenvandine, I assume
[20:14] <dobey> stupid firefox history
[20:15] <dobey> https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/ubuntu/precise/ubuntuone-client-gnome/release-2-99-0/+merge/86488 is the dev-tools merge
[20:15] <kenvandine> dobey, how important is the new package?
[20:15] <dobey> kenvandine: very; we need to MIR it, and get it on the CD, as we'll be switching all the ubuntuone python code to use it
[20:16] <dobey> instead of python-xdg, which is unmaintained and not cross-platform
[20:17] <dobey> and in a few weeks, i'll probably write up a post strongly suggesting other python projects which depend on python-xdg currently, to switch to it
[20:17] <kenvandine> dobey, are you going to be checking in on irc or checking email next week?
[20:17] <micahg> dobey: you do realize there are other rdepends of python-xdg in main, right?
[20:17] <dobey> kenvandine: yes
[20:18] <kenvandine> dobey, i'll review them today and upload them on monday
[20:18] <dobey> micahg: yes. and all of them need to move off of it i think; and when i think dirspec is ready for them to do that, i will be strongly suggesting it. :)
[20:18] <kenvandine> at least then if we need to scramble to fix the distro it isn't on christmas day :)
[20:18] <dobey> we won't need to scramble to fix the distro :(
[20:19] <kenvandine> dobey, famous last words
[20:19] <kenvandine> i seem to recall ted saying that about dbusmenu once on a friday
[20:19] <micahg> dobey: also, anything cross-distro should really be done through freedesktop.org as pyxdg is
[20:19] <kenvandine> that was no fun
[20:19] <dobey> micahg: freedesktop.org is a royal waste of time.
[20:20] <kenvandine> dobey, i am sure everything will be fine... but we don't like to go all john wayne on our users :)
[20:21] <dobey> meh
[20:24] <dobey> chicken ;)
[20:24] <dobey> or should i say…
[20:24] <dobey> "What are ya? Yeller?"
[20:27] <Laney> dobey: no I did not. Perhaps tomorrow if you still need it.
[20:27] <Laney> keep the bug status updated or something
[20:27] <kenvandine> :)
[20:27] <kenvandine> dobey, most of the control panel changes are to the qt code
[20:29] <dobey> kenvandine: right, which isn't even packaged in ubuntu yet :)
[20:30] <kenvandine> lowers the risk
[20:30] <kenvandine> poor gtk
[20:31] <dobey> right, which is why i say this stuff is all pretty low risk. :)
[20:33] <kenvandine> dobey, ubuntuone-client-gnome FTBFS
[20:33] <kenvandine> the patches need to be removed
[20:33] <dobey> eh, didn't i do that? grr
[20:33] <kenvandine> which worries me a bit.. makes me wonder if you even tested it :)
[20:36] <dobey> hrmm; i wonder why they didn't conflict when i did merge-upstream. that is weird
[20:36] <dobey> the whole "3.0 (quilt)" having auto-applied patches is very confusing :(
[20:37] <dobey> s/auto/pre/
[20:37] <kenvandine> yeah
[20:37] <kenvandine> dobey, also in libubuntuone you should add changelog entries for the debian/control changes
[20:38] <micahg> dobey: I don't believe that's the case anymore with dpkg 1.16.1
[20:39] <dobey> micahg: you mean it doesn't pre-apply them any more?
[20:40] <kenvandine> dobey, i commented on those in the merge proposals
[20:40] <micahg> dobey: oh, wait, I guess it does in the source upload and then unapplies them locally
[20:40] <kenvandine> let me know when it is fixed and i'll look again
[20:40] <dobey> kenvandine: ubuntuone-client-gnome should be fixed now
[20:40] <kenvandine> dobey, thx
[20:42] <micahg> oh, hmm, not sure if that's right either :0/, that could only be with the option to not apply patches by default
[20:42] <dobey> micahg: see. confusing.
[20:43] <dobey> kenvandine: and libu1 fixed as well
[20:47] <kenvandine> dobey, ok... these are REALLY  low risk changes... i'll test locally and if all goes well i'll upload them
[20:47] <kenvandine> if they break, i'll hunt you down :)
[20:48] <kenvandine> dobey, i am not going to do dirspec now though
[20:48] <kenvandine> i have other stuff i really want to finish before the break
[20:50] <dobey> kenvandine: thanks much
[20:50] <kenvandine> np
[20:50] <kenvandine> dobey, are you staying in VA for the holiday?
[20:50]  * kenvandine can't believe he just turned on the air conditioning
[20:51] <dobey> kenvandine: yeah, am not going anywhere
[20:51] <kenvandine> too warm for christmas!
[20:51] <dobey> maybe will go out to the garage some, or to the pub; but that's about it :)
[20:52] <kenvandine> :)
[20:52] <micahg> that would be a welcome change from the 30s in Chicago :)
[20:53] <dobey> not too warm here
[20:54] <dobey> just a bit warmer, and it would be perfect
[20:58] <kenvandine> dobey, control panel fail...
[20:59] <kenvandine>     from ubuntuone.controlpanel.utils import (ERROR_TYPE, ERROR_MESSAGE,
[20:59] <kenvandine> ImportError: No module named utils
[21:00] <kenvandine> dobey, fix debian/python-ubuntuone-control-panel.install
[21:01] <dobey> ugh
[21:02] <dobey> kenvandine: that's nessita's branch and she's already on holiday. :-/
[21:02] <kenvandine> ok, i'll fix it
[21:02] <dobey> thanks
[21:05] <kenvandine> np
[21:07] <kenvandine> micahg, it is 74 here...
[21:07] <micahg> well, i'm wearing a short sleeve shirt :)
[21:07] <kenvandine> i guess i should enjoy it before going to budapest in january, that is going to be cold!
[21:07]  * micahg wishes for 74 again
[21:08] <kenvandine> micahg, i am wearing flip flops :)
[21:08] <micahg> kenvandine: cold like Chicago :)
[21:08] <Nafallo> kenvandine: ooh. you got a weather forecast? :-)
[21:10] <kenvandine> Nafallo, no... but everyone keeps asking me if i am crazy for going to budapest in january
[21:10] <kenvandine> that can't be good
[21:11] <Nafallo> kenvandine: pfff, just tell them you're going to Budapest... not Lulea in north Sweden ;-)
[21:12] <Nafallo> (where facebook is building weathercooled DCs :-)
[21:12] <kenvandine> hehe
[21:14] <dobey> i am glad i am not going to budapest :)
[21:15] <kenvandine> dobey, ubuntuone-client-gnome is causing nautilus to crash
[21:15] <dobey> eh?
[21:17] <dobey> works ok here
[21:17] <kenvandine> crashes on both of my precise boxes
[21:17] <kenvandine> dobey, stacktrace coming
[21:17] <dobey> my precise laptop actually locked up hard while doing an apt-get upgrade last night. :(
[21:18] <dobey> i haven't turned it back on yet, though
[21:24] <dobey> the older version crashed it on precise though, after the glib update to 2.31
[21:24] <kenvandine> dobey, bug 908261
[21:24] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 908261 in ubuntuone-client-gnome "nautilus crashed with SIGSEGV in g_closure_invoke()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/908261
[21:25] <kenvandine> it did?
[21:25] <kenvandine> never for me...
[21:25] <dobey> yeah, because there was a bug in the .convert; at least g-s-d crashed because of it, i thought nautilus did too
[21:26] <kenvandine> actually, in  a fresh session it doesn't crash until i browse to the ~/Ubuntu One directory
[21:26] <kenvandine> gsd is crashing as well
[21:26] <kenvandine> apport isn't catching it though
[21:26] <kenvandine> once i browse to my Ubuntu One directory, it crashes everytime i start nautilus back up
[21:26] <kenvandine> until i logout
[21:27] <dobey> weird
[21:28] <dobey> am doing dpkg --configure -a on laptop right now
[21:28] <dobey> the software-center postinst is evil
[21:28] <dobey> my hdd light is going crazy, for an absurdly long period of time :(
[21:29] <dobey> did something change in nautilus recently?
[21:32] <dobey> laptop updated
[21:32] <kenvandine> dobey, downgrading libsyncdaemon-1.0-1 to 2.0.0-0ubuntu4 fixed it
[21:34] <dobey> huh, no crash here
[21:34] <dobey> and nothing has changed in libsyncdaemon, so that is weird
[21:34] <dobey> i am on 32 bit though
[21:34] <dobey> oh now it's crashed
[21:34] <dobey> that took a while
[21:35] <kenvandine> it crashes once i browse to a shared folder
[21:36] <kenvandine> ok... i updated the bug to ubuntuone-client
[21:36] <kenvandine> uploading this now
[21:37] <dobey> wtf.
[21:37] <kenvandine> dobey, kind of weird that libubuntuone has a build dep on libsyncdaemon-1.0-dev (>= 2.99.0) but not a depends
[21:37] <dobey> come on apport retracer
[21:37] <kenvandine> i guess i just haven't browsed a shared folder in a while
[21:37] <kenvandine> so not a new bug
[21:38] <dobey> well, i'm sure plenty of people do
[21:39] <dobey> kenvandine: hrmm; i just updated the existing version numbers to the new ones in the control file
[21:40] <kenvandine> yeah, but maybe it doesn't really depend on the newer version
[21:42] <dobey> oh, actually a bit of libsyncdaemon did change, but it was only the part that talks to SSO, because there was an api change in ubuntu-sso-client
[21:42] <dobey> so it does need that to work with the new ubuntu-sso-client in precise
[21:42] <dobey> ah well
[21:43] <dobey> now this nautilus crash has upset me :(
[21:43] <dobey> heh
[21:44] <kenvandine> dobey, all uploaded
[21:44] <kenvandine> if you get a patch for libsyncdaemon, let me know :)
[21:45] <dobey> thanks
[21:45] <kenvandine> now that i know that is crashing, it is bugging me too
[21:48] <dobey> meh, apport doesn't auto-attach relevant xsession-errors bits
[21:54] <dobey> kenvandine: are you coming to VA next week? or working? or just staying at home?
[21:56] <kenvandine> staying home
[21:56] <dobey> cool
[22:00] <dobey> why isn't it crashing on oneiric. bah
[22:21] <dobey> fml it is surprisingly hard to find swordfish here, without having to drive 20-30 miles.
[22:25] <Nafallo> dobey: apt-cache show swordfish
[22:25] <Nafallo> ;-)
[23:03] <dobey> oh well; day is done, it is.


[03:01] <Sarvatt> has mesa-utils been in universe for a long time?
[03:01] <Sarvatt> cant enable compiz or KDE desktop effects without glxinfo... was just messing around on a kubuntu livecd
[03:04] <RAOF> I thought compiz now did its own gl extension detection?
[03:04] <RAOF> It's quite possible that kwin still calls out to glxinfo; I don't think kwin's been the subject of a ruthless time-to-desktop shaving exercise.
[03:06] <Sarvatt> kwin for sure needed mesa-utils installed to enable gl compositing, i couldn't activate it until i manually enabled universe and installed it
[03:06] <Sarvatt> grabbing the compiz source to check but i swear it just had glxinfo calls in it when i looked a few days ago
[03:07] <RAOF> file $(which compiz): ELF 64-bit LSB executable.
[03:07] <RAOF> It's no longer a wrapper script that calls glxinfo; I guess it might call out to glxinfo from C code, but that seems less likely.
[03:14] <Sarvatt> ah yeah it doesn't need glxinfo anymore outside of the apport hook
[03:15] <Sarvatt> i see the checks in src/screen.c
[03:24] <RAOF> Sarvatt: Have you updated xorg-edgers with new nouveau stuff?  It seems compiz broke for at least one poor widdle macbook with an update today.
[03:26] <Sarvatt> nope, it needs to be updated, i haven't had time to mess with it because i've been in bug fixing mode all day and am about to pass out :)
[03:42] <RAOF> You are most welcome to be in bugfixing mode!
[03:48] <Sarvatt> RAOF: doesn't UNE call glxinfo to determine if it should run in 2D or 3D mode?
[03:49] <RAOF> That's a good point!
[04:20] <AtomicSpark> So I have this little icon in my notification area and it references this blog http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2009/08/17/gnome-power-manager-and-blanking-removal-of-bodges/
[04:20] <AtomicSpark> It mentions X, so I figured I'd ask about it in here. ;3
[04:29] <Sarvatt> looks like kde and wine need some extending to work with nouveau 3D (yay...)
[04:30] <Sarvatt> kwin/compositingprefs.cpp has the gl vendor strings hardcoded and wine does the same
[04:30] <RAOF> kwin hardcodes vendor strings?  Sucky.
[04:30] <Sarvatt> (in kdebase-workspace)
[04:38] <Sarvatt> well its just determining if gl compositing should be used by default by the vendor so its no so bad in KDE
[04:38] <Sarvatt> wine on the other hand...
[04:48] <Sarvatt> is it me or does that netbook-launcher glxinfo check not look right in the first place..? its parsing the output for Direct Rendering: Yes when you could have that with swrast? if anything I'd think it should be checking the opengl renderer string for != Software Rasterizer or Mesa DRI || Gallium as well, or heck just put the code in and bypass glxinfo altogether to be faster
[04:49] <Sarvatt> you're working on netbook-launcher now aren't ya RAOF? only reason I'm bugging you about it :)
[04:52] <RAOF> Sarvatt: Yeah, I am.  You're welcome to bug me about it, but I'm currently turning f-spot into a fusion-powered rocket ship.
[05:01] <Sarvatt> well it'd have to be renderer string != Software Rasterizer or contains Mesa || Gallium, OR the opengl version string contains NVIDIA || ATI
[05:03] <Sarvatt> silly blob drivers put the card names in the renderer string and the vendor in the version string and swrast has Mesa in the version string too so couldnt use just the version string
[05:05] <Sarvatt> of course I see netbook-launcher being the most use on arm and who the heck knows what gl info those blob drivers (that arent even packaged in ubuntu) use
[08:34] <tjaalton> yeah, serial wacom works
[09:10] <tjaalton> apw, RAOF: so which nouveau API are we getting for lucid? reading through the dri-devel flamefest about this made me realize that if and when there are going to be newer kernels backported to lucid (as I've heard is the plan) nouveau will break
[09:11] <tjaalton> if we stick to 0.0.15
[09:22] <apw> tjaalton, they said they would be supporting .33 drm for some time, which api does that have
[09:40] <jcristau> 15 i think
[10:04] <tjaalton> apw: yes, but it's still the same problem; harder to run newer kernels with nouveau (needs the newer ddx as well)
[10:04] <tjaalton> and lidrm
[10:04] <tjaalton> *libdrm
[10:05] <apw> but that problem will always exist, upstream does not strive for compatibility
[10:06] <tjaalton> haven't asked but if nouveau gets out of staging in .34 then they have to
[10:07] <tjaalton> and do what intel is doing, flagging features and turning them on if the userspace works with them
[10:07] <tjaalton> or the other way around
[10:08] <tjaalton> anyway, I'm happy as it is now, having the .33 drm backported :) this was just a heads up to see what kind of problems there will be in the future
[10:08] <tjaalton> (and speaking as the maintainer of an nvidia-only shop)
[10:26] <tseliot> :-)
[10:27] <tseliot> shop?
[10:27] <tjaalton> "shop"
[10:28] <tseliot> aren't you working at the university any more?
[10:28] <tjaalton> yes
[10:29] <tseliot> ok, I get it now
[10:32] <tjaalton> good, I can't explain the word :)
[10:32] <tjaalton> in this context
[10:33] <tjaalton> "place to work" or so
[10:34] <tseliot> yes, just wanted to know whether I had to take that literally or not
[10:34] <tjaalton> hehe
[11:07] <apw> RAOF, about?  did you manage to test the update to the kernel in my red ppa?
[11:24] <RAOF> apw: I did; it works.
[11:24] <apw> RAOF, the versions with the linux-meta and everything
[11:25] <RAOF> Yes.  It upgraded fine.
[11:25] <apw> RAOF, that worked here on my mini 10v, as far as i can tell ...
[11:25] <apw> you were absolutly right abut the replaces etc not being needed
[11:26] <apw> thats great, can i take it you are happy with that kernel (essentially) going into the archive?
[11:27] <RAOF> Yup.  the linux-backports-moudles-nouveau-lucid-$FLAVOUR dependency can be currently satisfied by the actual packges, which don't apply to the new kernel ABI, and once those kernel packages are in the archive, published and mirrored we can drop the dependency from xserver-xorg-video-nouveau and make cjwatson happy.
[11:27] <RAOF> Yes.  I'm happy with that kernel going into the archive.
[11:27] <tseliot> superm1: I'm setting fglrx's alternative priority to 1000 as having the same priority of nvidia-current can cause unpredictable results when in automatic mode
[11:30] <RAOF> And tomorrow morning I'll pick up my new intel/nvidia netbook, and see how much nouveau likes switchable graphics.
[11:31] <apw> RAOF, excellent, i'll get steves and bryceh's ack and then get it in, i suspect a special note to u-k and u-x mailinglists will be appropriate
[11:33] <RAOF> Would you be able to do that?  I'm off to bed, and I'm not entirely confident I'd be coherent if I tried to write such a note now :)
[11:34] <apw> RAOF, heh yeah i was assuming i would be in the frame for that, i can get bryceh to help
[11:35] <RAOF> Thanks.  And with that, I depart.  Like a phantom into the night.
[11:40] <apw> RAOF, thanks for you testing help
[14:45] <zniavre> hello i posted bur report for legacy 173.22.14 nvidia driver https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-settings/+bug/523108
[14:45] <zniavre> this morning i tried them again and i got same worrie
[14:46] <zniavre> and 173.14.25 solved the problem
[14:46] <zniavre> but i feel plymouth does not work cause im using this driver from nvidia.com
[14:48] <zniavre> what can i do ? to make driver from repos working ans plymouth running
[14:48] <bjsnider> change your bug report so that it is a packaging request for the newer driver
[14:49] <apw> bryceh, how did your testing go on 'red' ...
[14:50] <zniavre_> sorry ...
[14:52] <bjsnider> zniavre_, your bug isn't an nvidia-settings bug it is a packaging request for the newer 173 driver. you need to mark the current one as invalid and create a new one
[14:53] <zniavre_> ok i ll try that
[15:17] <bjsnider> http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/nvidia-pulls-196-75-driver-amid-reports-its-frying-graphics-car/
[15:18] <bjsnider> seems the firmware wasn't activating the gpu fan
[17:32] <Sarvatt> nouveau is worrying me alot at the moment.. I see a whole lot of issues supporting it in a LTS with its current state and the risks by *far* outweigh the positives in my mind
[17:33] <hyperair> Sarvatt: didn't you foresee this coming?
[17:36] <Sarvatt> yes but I don't make the decisions and the work that has been done to get it going was a very positive thing in my eyes. I just don't feel its a good idea in its current state with how much it will break things
[17:37] <Sarvatt> for instance, people wont be able to install backported or mainline kernels on nvidia machines unless they are using the blob. people are pushing for the .34 nouveau api to be a stable one and we'd be using .33 thats incompatable
[17:37] <hyperair> oh that sucks.
[17:38] <Sarvatt> the dumps that newer nvidia GPU support was based off of were just recently found to be completely broken
[17:38] <hyperair> and that sucks even more
[17:38] <hyperair> i think nv is a better bet for stability purposes then
[17:38] <Sarvatt> a .33 based nouveau with the old api wont be supported by upstream
[17:39] <hyperair> meh.
[17:39] <hyperair> unstable APIs suck
[17:39] <Sarvatt> this is alot of risk for something that is basically a gateway to install the blob graphically at this point
[17:39] <jcristau> would be interesting to know whether rhel6 will have nouveau
[17:39] <hyperair> is it too late to revert?
[17:40] <Sarvatt> no i can see alot of ways we could safely have nouveau in and just not default like dropping xserver-xorg-video-nouveau from xserver-xorg-video-all and making the ddx optional while still keeping the xserver default nouveau patch, blacklisting the nouveau module by default, un-blacklisting it in a maintainer script in the ddx package
[17:46] <tjaalton> nouveau works great for me
[17:47] <tjaalton> eh, -nv is crap
[17:47] <tjaalton> no need to go back now
[17:47] <hyperair> tjaalton: no new kernels for you
[17:48] <tjaalton> hyperair: well there are ways to go around that
[17:48] <hyperair> tjaalton: like using the blob? =p
[17:48] <tjaalton> no, backporting libdrm/ddx too
[17:50] <tjaalton> I'm in favour of pulling the new api, more so _if_ it's marked as 1.0.0 (airlied asked for that on the nouveau list)
[18:13] <Sarvatt> it works great for me as well but I'm thinking of the average user who's going to be using it without understanding all these intricacies, nvidia has such a large number of users
[18:14] <Sarvatt> and i know there are alot of gpu's that dont work properly that haven't been tested,  and functionality thats broken that will be expected to work that we miss
[18:15] <libv> heh, i just slotted an AIW 9000 into a debian stable: boom.
[18:16] <libv> luckily i know my way around a graphics driver a bit
[18:16] <libv> but come on, how can a graphics card that, 3 years ago was probably the best supported out there _not_ work with debian stable.
[18:16] <libv> nobody tests anything, as nobody has the ability to deploy new code easily
[18:17] <jcristau> what's aiw 9000? :)
[18:17] <libv> r250 or so
[18:17] <libv> all in wonder radeon
[18:17] <jcristau> ok
[18:18] <johanbr> Sarvatt, but if, as you say, it's mostly a gateway for installing the blob, broken functionality shouldn't be of too much concern, as long as the basic functionality of bringing up a display is there
[18:18] <libv> i am not blaming you for this, btw, just the situation as a whole is messed up
[18:18] <libv> johanbr: i have tried explaining nothing else for the last 5 years
[18:18] <jcristau> libv: well i have no radeon hw so i'm relying on whatever testing happens in unstable before release.
[18:18] <libv> johanbr: the mountain of crap i have received for that is hard to measure.
[18:19] <libv> jcristau: as said, not your fault
[18:19] <jcristau> libv: if you have a fix for stable, though, i'll gladly take it :)
[18:19] <libv> jcristau: a return right after variable declarations is hardly a fix :)
[18:20] <jcristau> heh
[18:20] <libv> but it did allow me to test the dri driver
[18:20] <bjsnider> libv, the aiw series of cards hasn't been the best ati had in 8 years or so, not 3 years
[18:20] <libv> which was a success, as was unichrome
[18:20] <libv> bjsnider: i am one of the guys who worked with amd to free ati, i was the guy who wrote most of the modesetting code for radeonhd
[18:20] <libv> bjsnider: this was 2.5ys ago
[18:21] <libv> bjsnider: 2.5ys ago, r200 had the best 3d support out there
[18:21] <bjsnider> i know who you are sir
[18:21] <bjsnider> i listened to that talk you delivered recently at the conference
[18:21] <libv> only about 2ys ago, dri was becoming better for r300 than for r200
[18:21] <bjsnider> in which the intel guy took strong exception
[18:22] <libv> radeon 9000 was one of the later and faster r200s
[18:22] <libv> bjsnider: that'd be eric anholt; who did this commit: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/drm/commit/?id=b5495527
[18:23] <bjsnider> right, anholt
[18:23] <libv> now r200, at the time, was one of the best supported pieces of hardware out there
[18:23] <libv> but... it still blew up in my face
[18:23] <libv> why: because people do not go and test things easily
[18:23] <libv> people cannot deploy a whole graphics driver stack easily
[18:23] <bjsnider> but the aiw cards have tv chips on them as well
[18:23] <libv> bjsnider: which is exactly what exploded
[18:23] <bjsnider> the tv chip?
[18:23] <libv> bjsnider: no, the code trying to initialise it
[18:24] <bjsnider> it never worked very well for me
[18:24] <bjsnider> even back in the day
[18:24] <bjsnider> i've got one of those cards sitting around here
[18:24] <libv> i inherited this hw, as i did an agp r500, from my gamer cousin, i only pulled it out now to test dri drivers
[18:24] <bjsnider> used to use it in mandrake
[18:25] <libv> i know that it's early 2000s hw far too well, i recommended this hw to my cousin
[18:26] <libv> but still, it shows how badly these things get tested; and the reason for that is: nobody does, even though they sometimes want to, because everyone is either forced to change half their distribution, or forced to wait and upgrade their distribution before anything can be tested
[18:26] <libv> this works for many things, but not for volatile stuff like graphics hw and graphics drivers
[18:27] <libv> the really strange thing is that, what i suggest doing is actually setting the graphics driver developers free to some extent
[18:27] <libv> and yet they are against it
[18:27] <Sarvatt> r100/r200 is pretty much the main reason we're having to backport 2.6.33's drm to 2.6.32 to use KMS :)
[18:28] <libv> Sarvatt: it's broken on 2.6.32?
[18:28] <libv> Sarvatt: radeon still has xf86 modesetting
[18:28] <jcristau> libv: ubuntu wanted kms in lucid
[18:28] <jcristau> aiui
[18:28] <Sarvatt> yeah wth KMS, quite alot of fixes in .33 that didnt make it back to .32 in that area but UMS is fine
[18:30] <libv> Sarvatt: well, now the ratrace is on completely
[18:30] <libv> kernel, libdrm, xorg and mesa will soon be tied 1-1 completely
[18:31] <Sarvatt> what's the policy about stable mesa and ddx updates in -updates for a LTS? I really think we need to upgrade mesa point releases post release because almost all of my SRU's were fixes in the stable branches and bringing in whole new stable updates would wipe out big chunks of bugs instead of going through the SRU process for each individual commit
[18:32] <libv> Sarvatt: where are most of those bugs situated anyway?
[18:32] <libv> Sarvatt: in the mesa code itself, or in the drivers?
[18:32] <libv> (that would be a mightily interesting datapoint for me)
[18:33] <jcristau> my guess would be drivers, but i haven't looked.
[18:33] <Sarvatt> do you mean the drivers in mesa or the x drivers?
[18:33] <libv> Sarvatt: we're talking about mesa, so the drivers in mesa :)
[18:34] <libv> what do you have to patch up most?
[18:34] <libv> src/mesa/ or src/mesa/drivers/dri/*
[18:34] <jcristau> (but then i've never had to update mesa in a stable release)
[18:35] <Sarvatt> its both really but probably moreso the drivers
[18:35] <libv> Sarvatt: ah, but this is probably seen as "both" because they are one whole right now
[18:35] <libv> guess what i was testing the aiw 9000 for :)
[18:35] <Sarvatt> do you count swrast as a driver? :)
[18:36] <libv> hehe :) in my world, no, as it conflicts with src/mesa/drivers/common/driverfuncs.c
[18:37] <libv> which all normal drivers do use
[18:37] <libv> but the line is kind of blurry there
[18:38] <Sarvatt> they do some sketchy things on the stable branches sometimes which would hinder what I was suggesting I guess, like making the libdrm-radeon1 api changes from 2.4.16 required in 7.6.1
[18:39] <libv> Sarvatt: even though it's only the radeon/r200/r300/r600 dri and gallium drivers that require that
[18:39] <Sarvatt> mesa is weird, the vmware people work on the stable branch instead of master and pull fixes into master from there and everyone else works on master and backports to the stablebranch
[18:39] <libv> it's a mess
[18:40] <libv> someone asked me recently about how i see the future of mesa, with the tungsten people now part of vmware
[18:40] <libv> which is an interesting thought :)
[18:42] <Sarvatt> yeah the vmware people care alot more about windows support even though it seems like linux is by far the platform that uses it the most and its holding back having a sane build system from what I see
[18:44] <jcristau> having 3 build systems is what prevents it from having a sane one :)
[18:48] <tjaalton> Sarvatt: the sru process is way too heavy imo, and having point releases would be nice
[18:49] <tjaalton> why not put the whole point-release as a sru
[18:49] <tjaalton> and keep it in -proposed for some time
[18:51] <Sarvatt> for mesa 7.6 in karmic I saw issues with glxinfo segfaulting when not using mesa gl, swrast being broken on big endian platforms, too many intel and radeon fixes to count, and a bunch of memory leak fixes all over the place that were fixed by point release updates post release
[18:53] <Sarvatt> mesa 7.8 should be branching any day now so hopefully they wont try to backport things that require new libdrm releases to 7.7 :D 7.7 wasn't branched yet when the ati stuff landed in 7.6 branch that needed a newer libdrm
[18:55] <libv> the intel libdrm bump doesn't promise much good there
[18:56] <libv> the really cool thing is, main mesa-dri only depends on libdrm 2.3.0
[18:57] <Sarvatt> thats on 7.8 though, seems like too big of a change to add to 7.7 since its dependant on so much stuff like the dri1 removal if i'm not mistaken
[18:58] <Sarvatt> trying to work out why nvidia requires glx explicitly enabled in an xorg.conf now
[19:00] <tjaalton> Sarvatt: did you enable the blob, so that the alternatives are fixed?
[19:01] <Sarvatt> hmm, you know, I didn't actually check that glx was working normally since I installed everything in a hurry for my wife to use it while I work on her laptop
[19:15] <Sarvatt> yeah glx is fine, forgot i did check it because i was using compiz
[19:17] <Sarvatt> looks like the problem is that it uses /usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so instead of /usr/lib/xorg/extra-modules/libglx.so if you dont load glx via xorg.conf
[19:18] <Sarvatt> even though -- ModulePath set to "/usr/lib/xorg/extra-modules,/usr/lib/xorg/modules"
[19:24] <Sarvatt> having an alternative for libglx.so would solve that but yuck
[19:33] <bryceh> hi Sarvatt
[19:33] <Sarvatt> http://pastebin.com/0nGXwtDX (no xorg.conf) vs http://pastebin.com/9G9LM0k4 (xorg.conf with glx forcibly loaded)
[19:33] <Sarvatt> heyo!
[19:34] <bryceh> Sarvatt, regarding your earlier concerns... I don't think he's made it public yet but RAOF has drafted a stabilization plan for nouveau.
[19:35] <bryceh> we had known going into this that there'd be a lot of regressions, and that support was going to be tough, but at the time we decided to go forward with it, we felt it would be worth the risk.  What I've seen so far has not been too far out of bounds from what I expected
[19:36] <bryceh> RAOF says the next step is we need people to write bug reports on issues with nouveau, so the issues can be tracked and gotten upstream.
[19:44] <Sarvatt> could be really hacky and change xorg-server/hw/xfree86/common/xf86AutoConfig.c to add a device section with glx enabled always :)
[19:45] <Sarvatt> err module section I mean
[19:45] <jcristau> Sarvatt: explicit Load "glx" vs default loading makes a difference?
[19:45] <jcristau> that sounds like a bug to me...
[19:46] <Sarvatt> yup, it ignores the ModulePath option for loading modules but loads drivers from ModulePath fine
[19:47] <Sarvatt> ModulePath set to "/usr/lib/xorg/extra-modules,/usr/lib/xorg/modules"  -- Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so with no xorg.conf but it loads from /usr/lib/xorg/extra-modules/ fine with
[19:47] <Sarvatt> Section "Module"
[19:47] <Sarvatt>         Load    "glx"
[19:49] <jcristau> that's not modules vs driver..
[21:47] <bjsnider> libv, how is the openchrome driver's 3d/compositing coming along?
[21:47] <libv> bjsnider: i am the guy who writes unichrome.
[21:48] <libv> openchrome is the people who forked away from me because i wouldn't accept vbe and was working on real modesetting
[21:48] <libv> this real modesetting was deemed useless at the time.
[21:49] <libv> and openchrome is just the xorg driver
[21:50] <jcristau> how's via kms coming along then? :)
[21:50] <libv> jcristau: ask via :)
[21:50] <libv> openchrome is basically a dead project
[21:50] <libv> there is a guy doing some useful work fixing bugs though
[21:51] <libv> but that's all it is
[21:51] <libv> oh, yeah, ivor hewitt pointed IDA at a more recent libddmpeg.so from via and added xvmc support for a few other chipsets too
[21:51] <libv> his second contribution to free software in a decade
[21:51] <bjsnider> does the driver you are working on do compositing?
[21:52] <libv> bjsnider: nope, but sadly unichrome is just turning out to be a playground for future technology
[21:52] <bjsnider> gee, that's funny
[21:53] <libv> even though all i try to be as directly useful and immediately deployable and backwards compatible
[21:53] <libv> turns out that those goals means that i am shaping the future each time :)
[21:53] <bjsnider> the gnome-shell guys said they had to work on via's driver to help it along so g-s would work with it
[21:53] <libv> tells one more about the current state of free software graphics than anything else
[21:54] <libv> bjsnider: yes, VIA's driver.
[21:54] <libv> bjsnider: VIA now claims it is working with openchrome, but it is not a symbiosis
[21:54] <bjsnider> i'd say free software graphics are pretty much a disaster at this point
[21:54] <bjsnider> but whatever
[21:54] <bjsnider> that's not a friggin' secret
[21:54] <libv> bjsnider: i know, and i have been working my ass off on changing that, sadly things don't work out too well each time
[21:55] <libv> they do to some extent, as quite a few things of what i have done have been taken on, usually in a reinvented form
[21:56] <libv> in any case, unichrome is not a dead project, it's just me.
[21:56] <libv> openchrome is pretty much a dead project, as only a few bugs are being fixed by one guy, while everyone else there is acting big and are talking loudly about how they are working together with via
[21:56] <bjsnider> i don't think the g-s guys were helping to develop a closed-source driver, i think it was openchrome
[21:57] <libv> via is just using the openchrome people, who are trying way too hard to be relevant without doing actual code, to clean up its image while being able to retain their old mode of working
[21:57] <libv> g-s?
[21:57] <bjsnider> gnome-shell
[21:58] <libv> i haven't seen any changes to the exa code on openchrome in the second half of the decade
[21:58] <bjsnider> jon nettlet
[21:58] <libv> he talks.
[21:58] <libv> never acts.
[21:58] <libv> "the openchrome people, who are trying way too hard to be relevant without doing actual code"
[21:59] <bjsnider> he seems to be very active to me, although i'm not sure about the openchrome thing
[21:59] <libv> http://www.openchrome.org/trac/timeline
[21:59] <bjsnider> he's very active in the gnome-shell project and other gnome-related things
[21:59] <libv> he is active in talking
[21:59] <libv> not in doing
[22:00] <libv> i do not follow gnome development directly, i am following enough already doing graphics drivers :)
[22:00] <libv> but on the openchrome side, he just talks.
[22:00] <libv> gang65 is bartosz, the guy who actually works when he finds time, and who fixes bugs
[22:01] <libv> everyone is just talking out of the wrong ends of their bodies.
[22:01] <libv> everyone else that is
[22:01] <bjsnider> everyone's wrong but you...
[22:02] <libv> bjsnider: not everyone, and not on everything, but quite a few are on many things i whine about
[22:02] <libv> hence why i whine about them
[22:02] <bjsnider> that's funny, because i thought everyone was wrong except me
[22:02] <bjsnider> so i might be wrong about that
[22:03] <libv> i liked the mark twain on the new ubuntu style notepad
[22:04] <libv> "The man with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds."
[22:05] <bjsnider> what's happening with the radeonhd driver? is that dead?
[22:05] <libv> bjsnider: novell fired 20% of devs in nue
[22:05] <libv> bjsnider: leaving me jobless, and leaving my colleagues unable to handle anything anymore
[22:06] <libv> amd also stopped formally working on it, as it had severe financial difficulties
[22:06] <libv> so ATIs plan succeeded
[22:06] <bjsnider> and what was ati's plan?
[22:07] <bjsnider> if ATI has ever had any plan for anything, this will be the first i've heard of it
[22:07] <libv> bjsnider: first it was to stop the free software thing altogether, then they went together with redhat, who liked a bit of publicity, to provide a competing driver
[22:07] <libv> bjsnider: i can spend many hours explaining what happened and provide many instances that can be deemed "highly curious" behaviour
[22:08] <libv> i usually hold the same monologue at least once per month
[22:08] <bjsnider> what competing driver? xf86-video-ati or radeonhd?
[22:08] <libv> -ati
[22:08] <bjsnider> that's  really old driver
[22:08] <libv> bjsnider: r500 support in radeon happened late november
[22:09] <libv> bjsnider: radeonhd development started late july of the same year
[22:09] <bjsnider> i see what you're getting at
[22:09] <libv> bjsnider: it is surprising how little people even know that little fact
[22:10] <bjsnider> you think it was a redhat vs. novell thiing?
[22:11] <libv> bjsnider: it's an AMD + SuSE (novell had nothing to do with it, it was suse people, with their long standing relationship with AMD, that existed before novell bought suse) versus ATI + rh
[22:11] <libv> ATI versuse AMD and redhat versuse SuSE
[22:12] <libv> versuse :)
[22:12] <bjsnider> ati and amd are the same thing during this
[22:12] <libv> bjsnider: if your new mothercompany tells you to opensource your crap and to provide docs and change your hw + software sales model to a hw only model, then you're not happy
[22:13] <libv> and if your mothercompany then says "fine, you're not doing it, we know some guys who will"
[22:13] <libv> and who then also succeed.
[22:13] <libv> because we managed to create a massive and working modesetting driver on a terribly small amount of information
[22:14] <libv> in a terribly small amount of time too
[22:14] <libv> no, terribly small is not true
[22:14] <libv> we got the massive register doc
[22:14] <libv> and AMD bought us a box full of r500 hw
[22:14] <bjsnider> hahaha really?
[22:14] <libv> and ati thought we'd never manage to make the pieces fit together in time
[22:14] <bjsnider> they sent you hardware?
[22:15] <libv> bjsnider: they always do
[22:15] <libv> bjsnider: hw vendors do that to distribution vendors
[22:15] <bjsnider> news to me
[22:15] <libv> bjsnider: i am typing to you on a laptop amd gave the radeonhd developers
[22:15] <libv> as a gift
[22:15] <libv> for the work we did and to get the support going at the same time (eat your own food)
[22:15] <bjsnider> if amd had problems changing the ati culture they should have fired them and brought their own people in
[22:16] <libv> bjsnider: bit hard when you just bought a business for more than your whole company is worth still at that point
[22:16] <libv> bjsnider: and when you are trying to make money from it
[22:17] <libv> add some bad management into the mix, and fun things happen
[22:17] <libv> bjsnider: and about hw vendors giving sw vendors hw, this is normal
[22:17] <bjsnider> ati's drivers were garbage, total garbage on windows when amd bought ati, and had been for years
[22:17] <bjsnider> the driver developers were no doubt morons
[22:17] <libv> but in the r500 case, there was no other option, as part of this hw was created before amd owned ati
[22:18] <libv> we got preproduction hw after this though
[22:18] <libv> also, always from amd
[22:18] <libv> never from ati
[22:18] <libv> amd made sure it got on our desks
[22:18] <libv> this was one part of the food chain that ati couldn't choke us on
[22:19] <libv> s/food/supply/
[22:19] <bjsnider> i don't see why it would have been hard for amd to fire the driver team and bring in their own people
[22:19] <bjsnider> fire everybody else too
[22:19] <libv> bjsnider: the thing is, when people are used to a certain mode of working, especially when they're not that clued technically, a change in that mode of working is extremely threatening
[22:20] <libv> bjsnider: people cannot admit it when they are wrong, and then fix things, they keep on fighting that, and they will not change their mode of working because that would mean that those wrong things would become apparent
[22:22] <libv> this is why i am so popular, i go in and poke the sore spots all the time, and this pisses off people who created those sore spots or who would like to ignore those parts where sore spots turn up
[22:22] <jcristau> bjsnider: because firing a driver team means hiring a new one, get them up to speed on the existing driver (which you can't do because you've fired the guys who knew about it), and so on...
[22:22] <bjsnider> jcristau, have you used windows xp + ati around 5-10 years ago?
[22:23] <bjsnider> that wasn't a driver, it was a disaster
[22:23] <bjsnider> there was nothing to save, nothing to bring the new guys up to speed on
[22:23] <bjsnider> i had so many little bugs and blue screens that it pushed me to nvidia when i couldn't even afford it
[22:23] <libv> err, hrm
[22:24] <libv> bjsnider: you just cannot do that, you can fire some rotten apples, and then tell the others to behave
[22:24] <bjsnider> and the register docs were there somewhere
[22:25] <libv> bjsnider: btw, there haven't been any register docs since early 2008
[22:26] <libv> bjsnider: there were some shader docs, but the latest one was released by a part that at the time was already integrated in AMD
[22:26] <bjsnider> i wonder why
[22:26] <jcristau> bjsnider: i've never used windows xp
[22:26] <libv> AMD created a gpgpu team in 2007, outside of ati
[22:26] <bjsnider> jcristau, you're a smart man
[22:27] <libv> and they are solely responsible for the r800 shader ISA docs
[22:27] <jcristau> haven't used windows in like 8 years
[22:27] <libv> ATI just put it in with the rest of the public docs, thats their only involvement
[22:28] <libv> in late 2007 early 2008, we had high hopes for going with the gpgpu guys, but then some key ati guys found out about it and killed our last hope of a clear and free information stream
[22:30] <bjsnider> sounds like the inmates running the asylum
[22:30] <bjsnider> the amd guys should have authority over ati
[22:32] <libv> bjsnider: in late 2008 amd sold its foundries
[22:33] <libv> bjsnider: because they couldn't renegotiate their debt (noone will tell you this, but it stands to reason)
[22:33] <libv> bjsnider: at this point, ATI was unbelievably powerful and could do whatever they wish
[22:33] <libv> bjsnider: some people describe ATI as a trojan horse today
[22:35] <bjsnider> amd's problems are due to their real or imagined inferiority to intel in their main business line
[22:35] <bjsnider> not because of ati
[22:37] <libv> bjsnider: sure, but there is more than just that going on
[22:38] <libv> bjsnider: there are always sidestories happening all the time, all the way down to the individuals
[23:28] <cnd> I just got a new pinetrail netbook and I've loaded up lucid on it
[23:29] <cnd> but it doesn't have direct rendering enabled
[23:29] <cnd> what do I need for 3d? 2.10.0 intel driver? (lucid currently has 2.9.x)