[00:54] <kbulgrien> $ bzr status --no-recurse
[00:54] <kbulgrien> bzr: ERROR: no such option: --no-recurse
[00:54] <kbulgrien> $ bzr status --no-recurse
[00:54] <kbulgrien> bzr: ERROR: no such option: --no-recurse
[00:55] <kbulgrien> jelmer: no
[00:55] <kbulgrien> $ bzr status --no-recurse
[00:55] <kbulgrien> bzr: ERROR: no such option: --no-recurse
[00:55] <jelmer> kbulgrien: I get the point, no need to repeat it three times :)
[00:55] <kbulgrien> mistake
[00:55] <kbulgrien> sorry
[00:55] <jelmer> kbulgrien: I must be mistaken, I thought bzr status had a --no-recurse option too
[00:56] <kbulgrien> was scrolled up and thought middle click wasn't pasting.
[00:57] <kbulgrien> well, it gets annoyed when there is read-only stuff... haven't figured out if it bails or simply reports problem, but --no-recurse would avoid that.
[00:58] <jelmer> kbulgrien: what kind of read-only stuff? bzr status shouldn't write to any files in the working tree
[00:58] <kbulgrien> weigon sure comes and goes a lot
[00:58] <jelmer> yeah
[00:58] <jelmer> weigon: ayt?
[00:59] <kbulgrien> well, again, regarding ro stuff, its stuff that is probably atypical of what most people do.
[01:00] <kbulgrien> I'm just changing what I used to do with another vcs over to bzr.
[01:00] <jelmer> kbulgrien: how is bzr complaining though/
[01:00] <kbulgrien> $ bzr status *
[01:00] <kbulgrien> bzr: ERROR: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/etc/shorewall/hosts'
[01:01] <jelmer> kbulgrien: ah, not readable at all
[01:01] <jelmer> that's different from readonly :)
[01:01] <kbulgrien> probably another reason I need to look at etc keeper if I am going to use bzr for this
[01:02] <kbulgrien> yeah, punchy. sorry.  been working in the yard all day. am beat.
[01:02] <jelmer> kbulgrien: and .bzr/ is readable?
[01:02] <kbulgrien> yes
[01:03] <jelmer> kbulgrien: why isn't /etc/shorewall/hosts not openable in tha tcase?
[01:03] <jelmer> presumably it has the same data as /etc/shorewall/hosts
[01:03] <kbulgrien> because I am not root
[01:04] <jelmer> kbulgrien: but why is .bzr/ readable for non-root in that case?
[01:04] <jelmer> kbulgrien: presumably that would allow you to get at data that is otherwise only accessible for root
[01:04] <kbulgrien> sudo
[01:04] <kbulgrien> I only use it when absolutely necessary
[01:05] <kbulgrien> so for controlling those files I sudo, otherwise I work as sysadmin user.
[01:05] <kbulgrien> That's fine for everything else, but a pain when checking status.
[01:05] <kbulgrien> It's ok... as long as it isn'
[01:05] <kbulgrien> t bailing out.
[01:06] <kbulgrien> But then I'd guess if it wasn't bailing out it would have showed all the stuff.
[01:06] <jelmer> kbulgrien: why is that file not readable then though?
[01:07] <kbulgrien> all /etc/shorewall is rw root.
[01:07] <kbulgrien> I was wanting status in /etc, not etc/shorewall.
[01:07] <kbulgrien> I didn't need sudo in /etc
[01:08] <kbulgrien> So I didn't use it, but then it recursed and apparently is bailing out on the unreadable.
[01:08] <jelmer> kbulgrien: why is it not readable for regular users I mean? Presumably they can get at its contents from .bzr/ anyway.
[01:08] <jelmer> lifeless: ping
[01:08] <lifeless> hmm?
[01:09] <kbulgrien> bzr is operator.root 770, so no, regular users can't get to it.
[01:09] <jelmer> lifeless: can you perhaps ban weigon, he isn't responding and has been reconnecting every two or three minutes for the last day or so
[01:09] <jelmer> kbulgrien: then how do you expect 'bzr status' to work as regular user? It needs to access .bzr/
[01:10] <kbulgrien> I'm tempted to say forget it, but, I expect to have to do some magic to check status of /etc/shorewall.
[01:11] <kbulgrien> I have a little bitty front-end script that does the magic - when I need it.
[01:11] <kbulgrien> My point was that all I wanted to do was check status of /etc, not everything underneath etc.
[01:11] <kbulgrien> There is no way to limit bzr status to what I want to do so I don't have to use the magic unnecessasrily
[01:12] <jelmer> kbulgrien: that's bug 287880
[01:12] <kbulgrien> ok
[01:12] <kbulgrien> I need to get more acquainted with launchpad
[01:12] <jelmer> I think the permissions is a different issue though, but I don't really understand what you're trying to do
[01:13] <kbulgrien> I'm version controlling "my" edits in an OS.  someone told me I should use etckeeper for that, but I've been doing things this way for years with CVS.
[01:14] <kbulgrien> So that's what I tried doing when I decided to jump over to bzr.
[01:14] <kbulgrien> The frontend for bzr is tiny compared to the frontend for cvs.
[01:14] <kbulgrien> It was also giving me a practical at-home experience with bzr to learn it.
[01:15] <kbulgrien> I have to get comfortable with it on my own before I push it up at work.
[01:15] <kbulgrien> I don' t have an bzr projects at home at the moment, other than minor server stuff.
[01:16] <kbulgrien> I realize my usecase is very odd.
[01:16] <jelmer> kbulgrien: I don't think your usecase is very odd - I'm using etckeeper too
[01:16] <kbulgrien> I just haven't tried etckeeper.
[01:17] <jelmer> kbulgrien: my /etc/.bzr/ is (intentionally) not accessible by non-root, since it versions some files that I don't want non-root users on my system to be able to access
[01:17] <kbulgrien> I fell into doing things the way I had always done them with cvs.
[01:17] <kbulgrien> I didn't even realize etckeeper was a vcs frontend until someone on here told me to look at it.
[01:17] <jelmer> kbulgrien: I think one of the differences with CVS is that CVS has a single file with the data on each versioned file. Bazaar stores information on multiple files together in single files (a pack)
[01:18] <kbulgrien> yes.  when I am doing os stuff, I have user is special.
[01:18] <kbulgrien> I never do os config as my regular user.
[01:18] <kbulgrien> I cannot even sudo with my regular user.
[01:19] <jelmer> kbulgrien: can that os config user access /etc/shorewall/hosts ?
[01:19] <kbulgrien> So this user is non-root, so his repo and sandboxes are not accessible to anyone else.
[01:19] <kbulgrien> only by sudo
[01:20] <kbulgrien> my front end script stats the file, gets perms, saves them, tweaks perms so bzr can do what it wants, then puts everything back, so bzr can run non-root too.
[01:20] <jelmer> kbulgrien: that sounds like a race condition waiting to happen?
[01:20] <kbulgrien> not when I am the only admin, eh?
[01:20] <fullermd> Waiting?   :p
[01:22] <kbulgrien> sure, its technically an exposure as it lowers perm tightness, but again, this user is not normal.
[01:22] <kbulgrien> all it needs is group root accessible.  other users aren't group root.
[01:22] <jelmer> kbulgrien: in that case, why doesn't your script tweak the permissions of /etc/shorewall/hosts?
[01:22] <kbulgrien> If I was working on etc/shorewall I would have used it.
[01:23] <kbulgrien> but I was trying to get status of say /etc/* for changes, so didn't need the frontend.
[01:23] <kbulgrien> It would get very messy to recurse and tweak perms for stuff like that when I didn't want to do it.
[01:23] <kbulgrien> That would be a disaster waiting to happen.
[01:24] <kbulgrien> The only problem is that I cannot avoid recurse.
[01:24] <jelmer> kbulgrien: unlike CVS, bzr versions directories too though. so if you run 'bzr status shorewall' it will recurse into that directory
[01:25] <jelmer> kbulgrien: I think (but am not sure) if you 'bzr status FILE'  it won't access the other files in the directory
[01:25] <kbulgrien> sure.
[01:25] <kbulgrien> agreed
[01:25] <kbulgrien> so I tried bzr status .
[01:26] <kbulgrien> I guess I could go find . -type f -maxdepth 1 -exec bzr status, but that seems unreasonable.
[01:26] <fullermd> Well, since bzr versions directories, I'd half expect a non-recursive status of '.' to have to touch shorewall too (not shorewall/foo necessary, but the inode of the dir at least)
[01:26] <jelmer> kbulgrien: if you give it a directory it will report the status for that directory recursively
[01:27] <kbulgrien> yes
[01:27] <kbulgrien> I was grasping at straws and am new to bzr
[01:28] <kbulgrien> I was amazed that there was no limit recursion option.
[01:29] <kbulgrien> ie. cvs recurses. but cvs has a limit recursion option.  its not the recursion that I mind.
[01:29] <kbulgrien> It would be odd for it not to recurse.
[01:31] <kbulgrien> I limit recursion a lot when I use cvs.
[01:32] <kbulgrien> Probably because I use partial checkouts a lot.  something else that I guess bzr doesn't support.
[01:33] <kbulgrien> Not being able to do partial checkouts is something I am not sure how to work around at work.
[01:34] <jelmer> kbulgrien: there are 'views', which give you some of the properties of partial checkouts
[01:35]  * jelmer gets some sleep.. clock just went from 1:59 to 3 here :)
[01:35] <kbulgrien> ok
[01:35] <kbulgrien> thanks, btw
[04:33]  * kbulgrien thinks it would be nice to be able to define a view in a "reverse" mode.  By specifying things that are NOT wanted.
[04:34] <kbulgrien> Some times the list of things you do not want to see is a lot smaller than what you do want to see.
[04:36] <fullermd> Mmph.  Views are totally not a useful substitute for partial checkouts.
[04:37] <kbulgrien> well, that is a given IMO
[04:37] <kbulgrien> I am having a hard time thinking about using a vcs without partial checkouts.
[04:39] <kbulgrien> At work, we use a big repo for a product.  S/W guys don't want to see the massive VHDL area, Tool 1 guys don't want to have to deal with Tool x stuff, but we want to be able to tag the whole project easily.
[04:40] <kbulgrien> Tool n has source files that can be 100's mb XML.  one guy works with that.  the other 10 shouldn't have to have that checked out and updated, status'd, etc.
[04:41] <kbulgrien> I wanted to convert over to bzr, but that looks daunting without partial checkouts.
[04:42] <kbulgrien> I think I heard something about externals... might have to look into that as a possibility
[04:42] <fullermd> There are not ungood reasons why 80% of the time, you don't really want partial checkouts.  And other as-good-or-better solutions to the remaining 10%.
[04:43] <fullermd> So that completely covers the...   uh...  wait.  It's been a long time since I took math, but..
[04:43] <kbulgrien> :-)
[04:49] <kbulgrien> I think it is a bug that bzr status doesn't return status just because it cannot read a file it tries to return status on.  It should report the problem and keep going IMO.
[04:53] <fullermd> That does open up the possibility of a tidal wave of spam.
[04:53] <fullermd> Of course, that could probably equally well be labelled as giving a silly answer to a silly question...
[05:31]  * kbulgrien thinks bzr status IS a tidal wave of SPAM.  I see no good reason for bzr status to give status for the WHOLE branch by default.
[05:32] <lifeless> kbulgrien: what should be the default ?
[05:32] <kbulgrien> I never (actually I suppose almost never) want status on the whole branch when I ask for status below the top of the branch.
[05:33] <kbulgrien> default should be status at current dir and below... a NORMAL recurse
[05:33] <kbulgrien> when I bzr commit a low level, it does not commit the WHOLE branch.
[05:34] <kbulgrien> (does it?)
[05:34]  * kbulgrien is a newb.  I might not have actually tried that.
[05:37] <kbulgrien> I guess bzr status . is a reasonable habit to get into, but I still don't like the default.
[05:37] <kbulgrien> I guess I can see some people might like the default in some sense.
[05:39] <kbulgrien> I say normal, like rm -rf doesn't wipe out / unless I am in root.
[05:40] <kbulgrien> This is a default that differs from the norm of most command line tools.
[06:57] <j605> hi
[06:59] <j605> i was trying to checkout a project, but i get an error. Permission denied(Public Key). I am running the command as an administrator(using sudo). Is there a way around it?
[07:40] <j605> figured it out, had to copy my .ssh directory to /root :)
[14:46] <fullermd> kbulgrien: Actually, it _does_ commit the whole tree...
[14:47] <fullermd> kbulgrien: 's a change that took me a while to get used to coming from CVS, but I was happy for it.
[14:50] <Peng> /1/14
[22:37] <poolie> hi all


[13:20] <saispo> cjwatson: ping ?
[13:20] <cjwatson> saispo: pong
[13:21] <saispo> hi :)
[13:21] <saispo> cjwatson: just a simple question
[13:21] <saispo> why http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=432977 patch it's not include in klibc ? it's a mistake or it's normal
[13:21] <saispo> ?
[13:22] <cjwatson> we haven't yet merged the version of klibc in which that bug was fixed
[13:22] <cjwatson> it will be merged in intrepid
[13:22] <cjwatson> perfectly normal
[13:22] <saispo> ok :/
[13:23] <saispo> because i need this for gutsy and when i build a cd with a customized klibc package i get a red screen with error on ubuntu-minimal :/
[13:23] <saispo> possible to bypass this ?
[13:24] <cjwatson> you need to investigate syslog to see what the error actually is
[13:24] <saispo> when i investigate it's about unconfigured packages...
[13:24] <saispo> it's not because i put some packages which not have an ubuntu signature ?
[13:27] <cjwatson> naturally if you are customising a CD then you need to follow the documented steps to sort out signatures
[13:27] <cjwatson> signatures are NOT per-package, they're for the whole archive
[13:27] <saispo> yep
[13:28] <saispo> i added this but not working for me
[13:28] <cjwatson> "about unconfigured packages"> I am not interested in diagnosing paraphrased error messages, I'm afraid; if you want my help you must give exact text
[13:29] <saispo> i made i understand, i rebuild a cd and trying, i will send it :)
[13:29] <cjwatson> sounds like you messed things up so that the result wasn't installable, though
[13:29] <cjwatson> or perhaps updated Packages wrongly
[13:30] <saispo> all is on the cd, no problem for Packages
[13:31] <cjwatson> only if you got it right ...
[13:31] <saispo> i will follow the documented steps and retry some tests :)
[13:32] <saispo> thanks cjwatson
[13:32] <saispo> my problem is only with my xen distro which needs some patches on dhcp and klibc for working :/
[15:01] <jdehlin_> cjwatson, I think you were the one that answered my question yesterday about udebs.. thanks
[17:23] <mario_limonciell> hmm, i'm realizing from the OEM installs that hardy-updates isn't turned on by default.  would that be resultant of not having internet access during the install?
[17:29] <cjwatson> probably
[17:29] <cjwatson> it ought to be by default
[18:44] <mario_limonciell> cjwatson, well it looks like -updates isn't enabled in the squashfs's sources.list, so when it gets copied over, its not enabled.  base-installer's library.sh appears to be what 'should' be turning it on, but since PROTOCOL is file, i suppose that it won't necessarily
[18:44] <cjwatson> no, it should be done by apt-setup
[18:45] <mario_limonciell> i don't see any reference to -updates in apt-setup ?
[18:45] <mario_limonciell> oh 50mirror.ubuntu
[18:46] <cjwatson> generators/50mirror.ubuntu:133:deb $protocol://$hostname$directory $codename-updates $dists
[18:46] <cjwatson> generators/50mirror.ubuntu:134:deb-src $protocol://$srchostname$srcdirectory $codename-updates $dists
[18:46] <cjwatson> won't be put in place until nearly the end of the installation
[18:46] <cjwatson> so if you're talking about something that runs during the installation, that might be relevant too
[18:46] <mario_limonciell> yeah.  hmm, that's peculiar then
[18:47] <mario_limonciell> it would almost seem like apt-setup didn't run at all then.  the sources.list from the finished install is identical to the squashfs's
[18:48] <cjwatson> would be interested in the syslog, some day when I'm not driving openssl updates
[18:48] <mario_limonciell> ah yeah i t looks like there is an error about apt-setup sitting in a syslog
[18:48] <mario_limonciell> yeah good luck with getting all of that out :)
[18:54] <ryoohki> where is the ubuntu kickstart installer documented?  i need to do fairly vanilla installs - just the 8.04-server-amd64 cd iso with UTC or Los Angeles or Pacific TZ and a /boot + LVM( swap + / )
[18:57] <cjwatson> https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/automatic-install.html are the docs we have - anything particular you want to know?
[18:57] <cjwatson> (we mostly refer to RH documentation)
[18:57] <mario_limonciell> ah i see the cause i think now.  we see apt-setup/use_mirror to false (because we don't have valid network access during install, and this causes it to 'hang').  50mirror.ubuntu will exit 1 rather than running through all of the code there.  wouldn't it make more sense to just not run choose-mirror, but still do the rest of the file in this case?
[18:57] <cjwatson> ah, LVM isn't as yet supported by kickstart
[18:58] <cjwatson> hmm
[18:59] <cjwatson> mario_limonciell: it ought not to hang - that's the real bug
[18:59] <cjwatson> I thought we'd finally fixed that this time round
[18:59] <cjwatson> have you encountered a hang on hardy?
[18:59] <cjwatson> or is this just from <= gutsy?
[18:59] <mario_limonciell> cjwatson, it was from gutsy, but the underlying issue was DNS resolves, but the servers aren't contactable
[18:59] <cjwatson> right, but hardy should deal with that much more gracefully
[19:00] <mario_limonciell> i'll reset that variable to  true and give it a run
[19:00] <cjwatson> yeah, give it a try - I'd love feedback on that
[19:00] <cjwatson> it may still impose a short delay, but shouldn't be nearly so bad
[19:03] <cjwatson> ryoohki: so, there is some support for doing LVM configuration - see https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/preseed-contents.html
[19:03] <cjwatson> ryoohki: it's not native in kickstart
[19:03] <cjwatson> ryoohki: which is a bug
[19:04] <cjwatson> ryoohki: but you can use the special 'preseed' command we added to the Kickstart syntax to set the preseed directives documented in the installation guide, and just skip the parts of Kickstart that have to do with partitioning
[19:04] <cjwatson> it ought to be possible to make that work
[19:18] <ryoohki> cjwatson: thanks!  so complex?!  basically yout just need to put the answers to the questions during install into a file. why so complex...
[19:19] <cjwatson> the installer is complex because it has to do a lot of stuff
[19:23] <ryoohki> cjwatson: it does behind the scenes but most os installs are fairly simple - just a few questions answered - and these answers are all that are needed to, in effect, script the install
[19:24] <cjwatson> there's a vast variety of possible questions, though, particularly for partitioning
[19:24] <cjwatson> kickstart does try to be a simplistic layer over it
[19:24] <cjwatson> it's unfortunate that it doesn't handle lvm yet; when it does, you won't need to look at the underlying complexity
[19:25] <cjwatson> BTW, with the exception of partitioning which is weird for annoying reasons, nearly every preseed directive corresponds to a question
[19:25] <cjwatson> which either is asked, or could be asked in expert mode
[19:39] <ryoohki> cjwatson: thanks!
[19:59] <ryoohki> cjwatson: this "preseed" directive in the ks file, does this preceed everyline? it would be nice to have a %preseed begin and a %preseed end so a preseed could be cut and pasted into the ks file without having to prefix everysingle line with "preseed"
[19:59] <cjwatson> at present, it has to precede every line; ideally it ought not to need to be used for lots of items
[20:00] <cjwatson> but that's a nice idea, feel free to file a bug on the kickseed package in Ubuntu for it
[20:00] <ryoohki> easy to fix, however => sed -e 's/^d-i/preseed d-i/g' preseed-lvm
[20:00] <cjwatson> indeed
[20:01] <ryoohki> cjwatson: well, it's too easily gotten around...
[20:09] <ryoohki> cjwatson: does the order in the preseed matter?
[20:10] <cjwatson> no
[20:10] <cjwatson> think of it as setting a bunch of variables, which are then handled later
[20:10] <ryoohki> cjwatson: i was thinking that
[20:11] <ryoohki> cjwatson: so basically i can use kickstart and stick whatever pressed directives i need into the file, no problem, as long as they aren't mixed
[20:12] <cjwatson> oh, well, if you mix them, order does matter, and the last in the file will win
[20:12] <ryoohki> cjwatson: like setting the timezone using kickstart and preseed
[20:12] <ryoohki> cjwatson: oh ok
[20:13] <cjwatson> but what I mean is order doesn't matter in the sense that you can put the language setting first or last and it doesn't affect the behaviour of the installer
[20:13] <cjwatson> for example
[20:36] <mario_limonciell> cjwatson, yeah that appears to work more nicely than early in hardy and in gutsy gold.
[20:36] <mario_limonciell> should be sane enough to do it that way in the factory
[22:05] <ryoohki> do you know if nfs works at all for handing off the ks file?
[22:05] <ryoohki> cjwatson: do you know if nfs works at all for handing off the ks file?
[23:51] <ryoohki> how can i get a list of the questions/answers during a manual install so i can make a preseed file out of it?  redhat leaves a ks.cfg file after an install - what does ubuntu do?


[20:10] <wrst> howdy chris4585
[20:10] <chris4585> hey wrst
[20:11] <wrst> how are things going?
[20:24] <chris4585> wrst, I'm ok, you?
[20:25] <wrst> yep doing well we just had a sudden warm up