[08:22] <ochosi> hey guys, if anyone can attend the release schedule meeting today at 16utc (UOS), that'd be great (skellat is busy)
[08:25] <elfy> might be able to flit in an out - any particular issues we need raising ?
[08:25] <ochosi> (if not, we'll survive)
[08:26] <ochosi> nah, i see this more as "just in case"
[08:26] <ochosi> there is no specific agenda there for us, afaics
[08:27] <elfy> ochosi: okey doke - I'll try and be there
[08:27] <ochosi> thanks a bunch!
[08:42] <brainwash> skellat: would applying the patch do any harm?
[08:43] <brainwash> even if just removes the warning message
[08:43] <brainwash> if it
[09:03] <ochosi> gotta take off, bbl
[10:53] <bluesabre> !team: Xubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes
[10:53] <bluesabre> !team | Xubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes
[11:00] <bluesabre> !team | Meeting time!
[11:00] <bluesabre> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[11:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 13 11:00:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[11:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[11:00] <bluesabre> good morning folks, who's around?
[11:04] <bluesabre> today might be a reschedule...
[11:04] <dkessel> o/
[11:04] <bluesabre> ohai
[11:05] <slickymasterWork> hey guys
[11:05] <bluesabre> hey dkessel, slickymasterWork
[11:05] <bluesabre> we'll give it a few minutes and see if people start to trickle in before starting
[11:05] <slickymasterWork> so, no one else around, besides us?
[11:06] <bluesabre> Unit193 is lurking in -ot
[11:06] <slickymasterWork> yeah, I was going to as if Unit193 isn't still awake :P
[11:06] <slickymasterWork> s/to as /to ask
[11:06] <Unit193> Zombie mode, biting and all.
[11:07] <slickymasterWork> heh fortunately we are immunized Unit193
[11:08] <bluesabre> Alrighty, let's get started then
[11:08] <bluesabre> #topic Open action items
[11:09] <bluesabre> slickymasterWork, you've got one on the list, progress?
[11:10] <slickymasterWork> just a sec bluesabre
[11:10] <elfy> hi - be 2 minutes
[11:11] <slickymasterWork> #info slickymaster started the calls for "translations important for xubuntu"
[11:11] <slickymasterWork> I'm planning to run two more calls until the end of the cycle
[11:12] <bluesabre> awesome
[11:12] <bluesabre> I guess you can probably #done that one for now
[11:13] <slickymasterWork> #done slickymaster to start a series of run calls for "translations important for xubuntu" list defined in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes#Package_translations
[11:13] <bluesabre> thanks :)
[11:13] <bluesabre> we'll wait for elfy
[11:13] <elfy> here now
[11:14] <bluesabre> cool, action items?
[11:14] <elfy> all done
[11:14] <elfy> #done mail the -devel list to garner comment on pad
[11:15] <elfy> #done mail -devel re where we support testers
[11:15] <elfy> and more formalized proposal about the QA process is more or less done but not on wiki yet
[11:16] <bluesabre> sweet
[11:16] <bluesabre> that could ne #info'd if you want
[11:16] <elfy> or carry on the existing action
[11:17] <bluesabre> that too
[11:17] <bluesabre> alrighty then
[11:17] <elfy> #action elfy and knome to complete the QA processes change
[11:17] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy and knome to complete the QA processes change
[11:17] <bluesabre> great
[11:17] <bluesabre> #topic Team updates
[11:18] <elfy> I got a few
[11:18] <bluesabre> #info Vivid should no longer have pink highlights except for the slideshow
[11:18] <bluesabre> go ahead
[11:18] <elfy> #info QA waiting on main -release team to start scheduling cycle
[11:18] <elfy> #info some image testing happening
[11:19] <elfy> #info some package testing happening
[11:19] <elfy> #info package testing finding odd issues with testcases - bug's being reported/dealt with
[11:19] <elfy> done
[11:19] <bluesabre> cool
[11:19] <qwebirc88404> sigh
[11:20] <elfy> wb qwebirc88404 - not seen you since yesterday :D
[11:20] <qwebirc88404> #info slickymaster updated Debian screenshots for Xfce/important packages~
[11:20] <bluesabre> slickymaster, thanks for that :)
[11:21] <bluesabre> #info Development is picking up on light-locker, new dev release expected soonish
[11:22] <bluesabre> otherwise, development is a bit slow atm for our team
[11:24] <bluesabre> #action bluesabre to improve widget naming in Catfish to aid autopilot
[11:24] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to improve widget naming in Catfish to aid autopilot
[11:24] <elfy> \o/
[11:24] <dkessel> :)
[11:24] <slickymasterWork> heh
[11:24] <bluesabre> hopefully that will happen tonight
[11:25] <bluesabre> anything else for team updates?
[11:26] <elfy> not sure there are any other team people about
[11:26] <bluesabre> fair enough
[11:26] <bluesabre> #topic Announcements
[11:27] <elfy> never understood why that's not last :p
[11:27] <bluesabre> same here
[11:27] <bluesabre> #info Ubuntu Online Summit (UOS) started yesterday, continues through tomorrow
[11:27] <elfy> or penultimate at least
[11:28] <elfy> I'm hoping to be floating about during the release planning one - but no guarantees
[11:29] <bluesabre> I won't be... hopefully we'll get an idea of the timeframes for gtk 3.14 and systemd (and any other highly breakable updates)
[11:29] <elfy> yep
[11:30] <bluesabre> if no other announcements, we can start discussion
[11:30] <elfy> go for it :)
[11:30] <bluesabre> #topic Discussion
[11:30] <elfy> shall we move the settings manager one up to top while slickymasterWork is here
[11:31] <bluesabre> probably a good idea
[11:31] <elfy> :)
[11:31] <slickymasterWork> actually I think we should postponed that item
[11:31] <slickymasterWork> we're just three, doesn't seem to make much sense discuss it
[11:32] <slickymasterWork> we know for moment that neither knome and ochosi have any strong opinions on the subject
[11:32] <elfy> ok - but ftr I am -1 to removing from whiskermenu - for when it does get discussed and I'm not here :)
[11:33] <Unit193> The idea is to remove "Settings Manager" from the menu?  -1
[11:33] <bluesabre> I would also be -1. I'm rather fond of the quick access settings manager
[11:33] <slickymasterWork> I'm 0 on it
[11:34] <bluesabre> we can carry on the discussion throughout the day, it's a relatively low-impact change
[11:34] <slickymasterWork> yes
[11:35] <dkessel> i think that in the end, there should only be one way to access the settings. either from the menu category "settings", or from the "settings manager" button
[11:36] <bluesabre> I see benefit in both... having it searchable in whisker, or being able to open the settings manager.  Different folks might prefer one or the other
[11:36] <bluesabre> #action -team to further discuss potential removal of Settings Manager from Whisker Menu
[11:37] <meetingology> ACTION: -team to further discuss potential removal of Settings Manager from Whisker Menu
[11:37] <elfy> dkessel: not sure - the price of removing settings from the 'list' is you can't access specific items
[11:37] <dkessel> oh ok....
[11:37] <elfy> price of removing the quick button, you can't do a bunch of things concurrently without going back to the menu
[11:38] <elfy> my point on this item - we shouldn't be removing things to deal with doc ambiguity - ever
[11:38] <dkessel> yeah and i haven't thought about the search feature. i guess you're right. people coming from some other os will expect to be able to search for settings
[11:38] <elfy> doc should reflect what we have and want
[11:38] <elfy> but - let's move on I guess
[11:39] <bluesabre> alrighty
[11:39] <bluesabre> So, blueprints
[11:39] <bluesabre> On the dev side, these are in a pretty healthy state.  Items are being added and updated by the team, so that's been pleasant :)
[11:40] <elfy> qa ones are pretty much the same as ever - nothing new there nor expected to be
[11:41]  * bluesabre should surprise the qa blueprints
[11:41] <elfy> go for it :p
[11:42] <bluesabre> looks like artwork has been going smoothly. We already have all of our themes patched for gtk 3.14, so when that lands we'll upgrade the package
[11:43] <bluesabre> er, most of the themes anyway
[11:44] <bluesabre> and I think its safe to say we can't really discuss the other ones without knome/pleia2
[11:44] <elfy> oh - quick question while I think about it please
[11:44] <bluesabre> go ahead
[11:45] <elfy> easy way to see  changelogs on ppa updates :)
[11:45] <bluesabre> PPAs don't support changelogs for daily builds, but other packages we upload will have them
[11:46] <bluesabre> I think
[11:46] <elfy> so - mucking about at lp in the ppa to dig out is best way?
[11:46] <bluesabre> maybe PPAs don't support them at all... will take a look to see the current status
[11:46] <elfy> bluesabre: generally not in my experience
[11:47] <bluesabre> elfy: I might set up something to at least see the git changelogs somewhere
[11:47] <elfy> ok - not a biggy, I've been endin up at something like https://launchpadlibrarian.net/190266350/mousepad_0.3.0%2Bgit-0~709~ubuntu15.04.1_0.3.0%2Bgit-0~710~ubuntu15.04.1.diff.gz
[11:47] <elfy> via lp and then more or less working it out :)
[11:48] <bluesabre> ok
[11:48] <elfy> bluesabre: thanks - let's move on :)
[11:48] <bluesabre> Any further planning to plan at this time?
[11:49] <elfy> not that I'm aware of
[11:49] <bluesabre> Unit193: anything we need to watch for potentially landing in debian?
[11:49] <bluesabre> and then syncing over to vivid
[11:50] <Unit193> I think I made a note of something minor, don't know what.
[11:50] <bluesabre> ok
[11:50] <bluesabre> :)
[11:50] <bluesabre> "Core is set for daily only, what about milestones?"
[11:51] <bluesabre> I see some comments on the pad for that one http://pad.ubuntu.com/vivid-QA-plan
[11:51] <elfy> yea
[11:52] <bluesabre> Sounds like daily is fine then, or specific calls as needed?
[11:52] <elfy> yep
[11:53] <elfy> Unit193's baby that is :)
[11:53] <bluesabre> "it's so precious"
[11:53] <bluesabre> :P
[11:53] <elfy> heh
[11:53] <bluesabre> "Change application testing to a more 'exploratory system'"
[11:54] <elfy> that's a fairly big change
[11:54] <elfy> going to mail list about it soonish but ...
[11:54] <elfy> plan is to NOT call for packages as we did last cycle
[11:54] <elfy> call a few times just to get people using vivid to drop by the tracker and report
[11:55] <elfy> mail testers about staging ppa and the need for testing as things need it
[11:55] <slickymasterWork> yeah, but packages testing does need some sort of a boost
[11:55] <slickymasterWork> there are too few of us making them
[11:55] <elfy> try and get 'dev' to talk to 'qa' as things need testing :)
[11:56] <bluesabre> ok, sounds reasonable to me (and like less of a headache for you)
[11:56] <elfy> slickymasterWork: yea - but as we're just in a mid lts cycle I'm willing to try it - it can't be worse than 14.10 cycle
[11:56] <bluesabre> elfy: don't jinx it
[11:56] <slickymasterWork> lol
[11:57] <elfy> it won't be worse - at least one has more than last cycle bluesabre :)
[11:57] <bluesabre> we don't know how bad it can get just yet :)
[11:57] <bluesabre> lol
[11:57] <elfy> anyway action me to mail list re that
[11:57] <knome> hmmh
[11:57] <bluesabre> #action elfy to mail list regarding application testing in a more exploratory system
[11:57] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy to mail list regarding application testing in a more exploratory system
[11:58] <bluesabre> #chair elfy
[11:58] <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre elfy
[11:58] <bluesabre> #chair knome
[11:58] <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre elfy knome
[11:59] <bluesabre> anybody else want a seat? :)
[11:59] <elfy> heh
[11:59] <bluesabre> anything else to add to the discussion?
[11:59] <ObrienDave> thanks but no thanks ;p
[11:59] <elfy> bluesabre: not at present
[11:59] <bluesabre> knome: blueprints stuff from your side?
[12:01] <bluesabre> guessing not
[12:01] <bluesabre> #topic Schedule next meeting
[12:01] <bluesabre> next lucky person is....
[12:02] <bluesabre> if ubuntu wiki ever loads....
[12:03] <bluesabre> the suspense is killing me
[12:03] <elfy> knome is next
[12:03] <bluesabre> thanks
[12:03] <bluesabre> #action knome to schedule next meeting
[12:03] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to schedule next meeting
[12:03] <bluesabre> #endmeeting
[12:03] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 13 12:03:38 2014 UTC.
[12:03] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-11-13-11.00.moin.txt
[12:03] <bluesabre> thanks all
[12:03] <elfy> bluesabre: thanks :)
[12:05] <slickymasterWork> thanks
[12:05] <Unit193> bluesabre: So right, did you want to sync dropbox-plugin?
[12:06] <bluesabre> Unit193: sure, I can do that
[12:18] <bluesabre> knome: meetingology seems to not be reading #done ... I thought that was fixed?
[12:18] <knome> lderan, PING
[12:18] <knome> bluesabre, me too
[12:19] <elfy> hi knome
[12:22] <bluesabre> meeting notes are up now, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[12:23] <bluesabre> assuming I did it correctly anyway :)
[12:23] <elfy> well ...
[12:23] <elfy> hardest bit is logging in :D
[12:25] <bluesabre> looks like we haven't updated this in a few months, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
[12:25] <bluesabre> I can work on that as needed... but not currently
[12:25] <bluesabre> gotta run, be back tonight
[12:59] <dkessel> knome: should i nag you about missing icons in vivid? the icon for servers in the local network is missing in thunar
[13:00] <knome> dkessel, no... nag ochosi
[13:00]  * dkessel nags ochosi
[13:03] <knome> elfy, from what pm was okay for you in terms of meetings again on a regular working day?
[13:25] <elfy> knome: mon-thurs after 5utc generally
[13:25] <elfy> though thurs 1700utc conflicts with another that pleia2 is in too
[13:31] <knome> oki
[13:45] <knome> sidi, just tell me what you want to share and i can tweet it, pleia2 can do the rest of the social media
[13:46] <elfy> sidi: see :D
[13:46] <knome> sidi, and if yoy want, we can organize a guest writer article on xubuntu.org
[13:46] <knome> elfy, asked on #xfce-dev already, so i know what it is about :P
[13:46] <elfy> :)
[13:47]  * elfy oftimes has thought about joining there
[13:48] <elfy> obviously never gets any further than a fleeting thought
[13:48] <knome> it's not too high traffic
[13:48] <elfy> :)
[13:49] <knome> though otoh, not sure how useful it would be for you
[13:49] <knome> unless you are interested in it generally
[13:49] <elfy> tends to be about the same time as I think about the shimmer channel too
[13:49] <knome> heh
[13:49] <knome> shimmer is more traffic, and probably even less useful
[13:49] <elfy> it'd only be nosiness rather than anything else :)
[13:49] <knome> ...unless, again, you are interested in it generally
[13:50] <elfy> I guess with the shimmer ppa in use - that's likely to be as much interested as I would be :)
[13:51] <knome> yep
[13:51] <sidi> perfect
[13:51] <knome> in shimmer, there are many discussions like "do you like this pixel 1px to the left or here"
[13:51] <sidi> knome, thats good
[13:51] <sidi> knome, i think i wanna do this as a shimmer member, targeting xub and xfce social media
[13:51] <elfy> knome: I guessed ...
[13:51] <sidi> will ask corsac if he wants to advertise for debian too when ready
[13:51] <knome> sidi, mhm
[13:51] <Unit193> There's been comments about icons I ignore, some about themes I ignore, and...
[13:52] <knome> sidi, make a plan, and then lets collaborate so we can get it all smoothly out
[13:52] <sidi> sure
[13:58] <brainwash> dkessel: isn't that a rather old bug?
[13:59] <brainwash> this one bug 1306940
[13:59] <dkessel> brainwash: .... hmm yeah is present in trusty too
[14:00] <knome> brainwash, speaking about bugs, anything i can do to help you getting your team memberships? :)
[14:03] <brainwash> knome: no, not until I have written the application
[14:03] <knome> okay
[14:03]  * knome waits
[14:03] <brainwash> * 7 days later *
[14:03] <knome> maybe...
[15:42] <sidi> sidi> http://goo.gl/forms/Oqbe7SEgur session resuming initial survey
 comments wanted!
 i plan on complementing this with either some scenario exercises (showing screenshots and asking people what they think *should* happen), or better yet short interviews of novice users, if the data feels like we don't know what to do
[15:42] <sidi> knome, ^
[15:48] <knome> Have you changed the applications that start by default when you login? * should probably allow multiple choices for the yes options
[15:48] <sidi> correct
[15:49] <sidi> i need a rough timing btw
[15:49] <knome> Do you think being able to remove autostart applications is useful?  should be probably more towards "pick the option that describes the situation best"
[15:50] <knome> under 18yo people can't participate?
[15:50] <knome> why is gender important?
[15:51] <knome> how do you plan to use the nationality/culture field?
[15:51] <knome> and i would move  Would you say that you're very proficient with computers or not at ease with them?  to the beginning of the survey, because the survey can change peoples conception of that
[15:51] <sidi> knome<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is valid right?
[15:51] <knome> well try it! :P
[15:51] <sidi> ah right so
[15:51] <sidi> one by one
[15:52] <knome> yeah, should be..
[15:52] <sidi> under 18yo = you will need parents' agreement probably
[15:52] <knome> okay
[15:52] <sidi> generally speaking i dont use participants under 18 because i dont know or understand the ethical and legal implications across the globe
[15:52] <knome> that's fine, didn't notice that it was mentioned in the first page
[15:52] <sidi> gender = i want to know how many female respondants, and how badly we need to work to encourage female participation in Xfce
[15:53] <sidi> which at the moment seems absolutely dismal to me
[15:53] <sidi> nat/culture because i want to understand if we're designing in an ethno-centric way
[15:53] <knome> okay, but note that the people who participate in this survey hardly represent the xfce community as a whole
[15:53] <sidi> i.e. all western, and if the non-western respondants have different things to say than the western ones
[15:53] <sidi> ideally we'd need a translation team to do versions of this in other languages but i doubt we have many resources for that
[15:54] <knome> ok, so maybe it would be more useful if you added pre-set selections for that
[15:54] <sidi> knome, sadly you're right
[15:54] <sidi> knome, it's a very dangerous idea to ask people "are you western/eastern/something else" i think :-) but if you think the question is unclear then i need to rework it indeed
[15:54] <sidi> for the proficiency youre correct
[15:55] <knome> i think that it will mean a lot of work to categorize those if you have a few dozens or more replies
[15:55] <knome> maybe it could ask the continent
[15:55] <knome> which would be accurate enough
[15:55] <knome> sure, there are people who think they are western who live in asia, and vice versa... but yeah
[15:55] <sidi> hmm
[15:55] <knome> and that, in my opinion, is not a very loaded question, so ++
[15:56] <knome> and it's auto-organized to the categories we want
[15:56] <sidi> ideally we'd need to advertise this well to the different xfce communities, getting 50 or so replies would be awesome
[15:56] <knome> yeah
[15:56] <knome> the more surveytakers you have, the less open-ended questions you want
[15:56] <knome> TRUST ME
[15:57] <sidi> hahaha
[15:57] <sidi> youre totally right
[15:57] <sidi> what im trying to do here though is some form of experience documentation
[15:57] <knome> right
[15:57] <sidi> for the open ended questions i care about diversity
[15:57] <knome> right
[15:57] <sidi> so i'll just tag them roughly and try to see which stick out
[15:57] <knome> but still...
[15:57] <knome> if it's 50 replies, and 10 open-ended questions, that's 500 fields to read
[15:57] <sidi> correct
[15:58] <knome> so maybe one open-ended question per subject would be better
[15:58] <ali1234> so these first two questions. i feel like my answers don't really reflect what you are asking
[15:59] <sidi> i will remove some
[15:59] <ali1234> "ho often do you log in to Xfce?" - "less than 1 time per week" - because i never turn off my computer
[15:59] <knome> sidi, good for you ;)
[15:59] <sidi> ali1234, "how often do you login"?
[15:59] <sidi> and "how much time it takes"?
[15:59] <knome> sidi, right, question #2
[15:59] <ali1234> it feels like you're asking in general "how much do you use Xfce?"
[15:59] <knome> "how long does your computer take to log in"
[15:59] <knome> OR
[16:00] <sidi> ali1234, not exactly. for instance i use xfce daily but i never login
[16:00] <knome> "how quickly do you feel comfortable to start working after you've logged in"
[16:00] <sidi> i always suspend
[16:00] <sidi> so i dont care about session suspend/resume
[16:00] <sidi> knome, good points
[16:00] <ali1234> yes, and question #2, i'm going to say "very long" but not because login takes a long time, it's because i start up load of programs that don't autostart
[16:00] <ali1234> i do it manually
[16:00] <sidi> ali1234, right so i need to ask why
[16:00] <ali1234> and i don't mind doing it manually because i never restart
[16:00] <sidi> ali1234, same for me when the pc crashes
[16:01] <sidi> but i do mind a lot personally ;D
[16:01] <sidi> ok i need to improve those
[16:01] <ali1234> in fact the only time when i restart is when i have too many windows open and i can't be bothered to close them all
[16:01]  * sidi is redoing the demographics first
[16:03] <knome> bbl
[16:50] <skellat> And we've got release task signups done: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseTaskSignup
[16:55] <elfy> missed that session
[17:16] <sidi> http://goo.gl/forms/7sH3mf2XQs reworked a bit
[17:21] <GridCube> sidi: you want answers right now?
[17:21] <elfy> sidi: bit of a gap between it can take up to 10 seconds and over a minute ...
[17:21] <sidi> GridCube, no no im just fleshing out the survey
[17:22] <sidi> GridCube, i want to expose it to users later on
[17:22] <GridCube> :)
[17:22] <sidi> elfy, ah yes true
[17:22] <sidi> forgot one
[17:22] <GridCube> ok, that's why i asked
[17:22] <sidi> elfy, tbh if its 10 or 50 in any case it's enough to make you "wait", but if its many minutes.... its enough to make you do something else
[17:22] <sidi> ah i need to rephrase it indeed
[17:24] <elfy> yea - I feel ready to do things within a couple of seconds but end up waiting for it to catch up with me :)
[17:24] <sidi> elfy, GridCube actually if you do take the survey now it might help finding other bugs
[17:24] <GridCube> ok
[17:24] <sidi> elfy, so the question is ambiguous
[17:24] <sidi> i mean to convey "how long before you do something useful"
[17:25] <elfy> perhaps "How quickly do you feel comfortable to start working/doing things after you've logged in? " should be more like "How soon are you able to start working/doing things after you've logged in"
[17:26] <elfy> which I assume is *what* this is really about
[17:26] <sidi> correct
[17:27] <sidi> i hope the comment clarifies
[17:27] <elfy> it does - but I read headlines :)
[17:27] <elfy> you might want to note where appropriate that multiple choices works
[17:33] <elfy> sidi: who's going to see this draft?
[17:34] <sidi> elfy, can you tell me more about multiple choices? do you mean i should leave more options sometimes?
[17:34] <sidi> elfy, you guys, the xfce-dev channel, essentially
[17:34] <drc> Just for what it's worth, I would/did never finish this survey... 1) Some of the questions made no sense or appeared to contradict the previous question, 2) There are at least 3 different "forms" of questions (multiple choice, dropdown and fill in the blank) (never a good idea in surveys), 3) You ask the user to remove/add an application as part of a "survey" (maybe as the last item in the survey, and NOT required), 4) You ask the user to verify
[17:34] <drc> several something with no way to verify it (that I could see) and 5) Some questions are required, with no way for the user to know that until s/he tries to "continue".
[17:34] <sidi> im not sure which other Xfce dev communities are active
[17:34] <elfy> sidi: the multiple choices ones - I just found by chance
[17:35] <sidi> drc, thanks
[17:35] <drc> :)
[17:35] <sidi> elfy, i think google forms is quite... uuh limiting
[17:36] <sidi> might need to roll this somewhere else. :/
[17:36] <elfy> maybe so - would just take a comment to make people aware something is multiple choice
[17:36] <drc> It's HARD to develop a good survey.
[17:36] <elfy> drc: +1 to that
[17:37] <GridCube> sent sidi
[17:37] <sidi> Thanks everyone i'll keep drafting and remove whatever is superflous
[17:38] <sidi> knome, is it reasonable/acceptable to host some survey CVS on shimmerproject's domain?
[17:55] <knome> sidi, yeah
[17:56] <pleia2> lmk if you need anything from me, packing for vacation now (and actually ON vacation for a week)
[17:56] <pleia2> we do have other social media admins for all resources, I'll doublecheck the wiki to make sure it's up to date
[17:57] <sidi> pleia2, great to know, enjoy your holidays!
[17:58] <sidi> knome, i'll look up what's good then. it might be useful to have our own stuff. I think i'll separate task from survey, and design a few more tasks. not sure how to bring about people to try tasks though
[17:59] <sidi> basically my view of design is that i need to observe user experiences much more than hypothetical projections of uses
[17:59] <sidi> problem is it doesnt involve the same resources at all
[17:59] <sidi> and there arent many precedents of usability studies in the FOSS community by and large
[17:59] <pleia2> ok yeah, so this is accurate: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/WebPresence
[18:00] <pleia2> can grab holstein if you need something on facebook, ochosi if you need something on g+
[18:00] <sidi> thanks :-)
[18:00] <pleia2> sidi: and thanks :) this vacation is long due
[18:07] <holstein> :)
[18:08] <ali1234> sidi: what information do you want from this survey, and why?
[18:08] <sidi> ali1234, i want to understand if people understand/find logical the separation between session and autostart apps
[18:08] <ali1234> personally i think the session restore feature should just die. it doesn't and cannot ever work like the way it does on android
[18:08] <sidi> and i want to know if they understand what the "save session" checkbox actually does on session logout
[18:09] <sidi> and if they want another mechanism for session resumption
[18:09] <ali1234> i think the separation is completely logical, because one is an important feature, the other is broken, badly implemented and confusing and used by nobody
[18:09] <sidi> ali1234, it needs not be broken, but the UI is wrong i think
[18:09] <sidi> it makes no sense to save a session for it to replay permanently
[18:09] <ali1234> no, it is broken. we can't resume apps in the state they closed down
[18:10] <sidi> ah that'll probably get fixed in many years as a side effect of sandboxing :P
[18:10] <ali1234> so let's remove the feature entirely until then?
[18:10] <sidi> yeah sounds good to me
[18:10] <sidi> ali1234, still some apps handle resuming
[18:10] <sidi> like browsers
[18:10] <sidi> or music players
[18:10] <ali1234> yeah but nobody knows which ones
[18:10] <sidi> true that
[18:11] <sidi> i think users should be let to add "autostart/session" apps in the settings UI
[18:11] <ali1234> and they generally handle it badly, differently, and in the most annoying way possible
[18:11] <sidi> but the logout checkbox should die
[18:11] <ali1234> didn't we already remove it from xubuntu?
[18:11] <sidi> i also think the session UI needs to be merged with autostart but i want user opinion first
[18:11] <sidi> ali1234, oh did you?
[18:11] <ali1234> i think so
[18:11] <sidi> ali1234, im on arch sorry :P
[18:11] <knome> i have it atm
[18:11] <ali1234> i see the logout so rarely i can't even remember
[18:11] <sidi> same
[18:11] <ali1234> it was definitely discussed
[18:11] <knome> but i don't know if it's removed from new installations
[18:11] <knome> yes, it was
[18:12] <sidi> thats why we're not entitled to changing things without surveying
[18:12] <ali1234> i still have it too :(
[18:12] <sidi> also developing a user-centered approach on easy topics cannot hurt
[18:12] <ali1234> 14.04 fresh install
[18:12] <ali1234> fair enough
[18:12] <ali1234> what i definitely don't want to see is session and autostart merged
[18:12] <ali1234> the autostart UI is good, the session one is terrible
[18:13] <ali1234> plus they are different features
[18:13] <ali1234> session restore doesn't even need a UI
[18:13] <ali1234> the entire desktop is the UI
[18:14] <sidi> ali1234, im curious if users even know how to find the autostart ui
[18:14] <sidi> ;-)
[18:15] <sidi> also i think both UIs need improving
[18:15] <sidi> i like the "if running" option of session
[18:15] <sidi> i'd like "always / if running / never" instead of just "always / never"
[18:15] <GridCube> if you use the action buttons in the panel, and make it so it "shut down"s only, no session logout manager, it doesnt ask you if you want to save session, it remembers what you chossed on the session logout manager
[18:15] <sidi> also the notion of priority is somewhat useful to end users
[18:16] <sidi> (for some end users at least)
[18:16] <sidi> ah i need to refine that survey very much
[18:16] <sidi> maybe interviews would be better
[18:17] <brainwash> maybe you could learn something from other desktop environments
[18:18] <ali1234> sidi: well, that's not a problem of session, that's a problem of UI design
[18:18] <ali1234> sidi: i understand the autostart UI, i don't understand the session UI at all
[18:19] <sidi> ali1234, the UI design is only a reflection of what we want our users to be able to do :-P
[18:19] <ali1234> as for priority, there was a bug report when someone wanted dependencies in autostart so they could make sure they start in the right order...
[18:21] <ali1234> personally i think we should kill xfce4-session asap and just use systemd
[18:21] <ali1234> i realise that will make people unhappy
[18:21] <ali1234> but... they can maintain xfce4-session if they want
[18:21] <knome> as if
[18:22] <ali1234> i;m surprised there's no UDS session on systemd actually
[18:22] <ali1234> is it really just that simple that it just works already?
[18:23] <ali1234> one thing that particularly bugs me is that things like xfsettingsd are started using the session restore functionality
[18:23] <brainwash> why shouldn't it work? :)
[18:23] <ali1234> if xfsettingsd crashes and you tick "restore session on login" - now you will never see xfsettingsd ever again
[18:23] <ali1234> or at least that is how it used to work
[18:23] <ali1234> that is dumb
[18:23] <sidi> dependencies was a bit crazy
[18:23] <ali1234> autostart should be used for things that always start regardless
[18:23] <brainwash> there is an autostart launcher for xfsettingsd
[18:24] <ali1234> i'm sure there is, but it is in the session tab as well
[18:24] <ali1234> as is power manager
[18:24] <sidi> ali1234, there is a very good XDG spec for how things should start in userspace
[18:24] <sidi> afaik xfce can handle that spec
[18:24] <ali1234> yes, xdg-autostart
[18:24] <brainwash> yes, the autostart launcher is the fallback solution I'd guess
[18:24] <sidi> it should put its own things in there if it wants to keep allowing xfce4-session/xfwm without the reste of Xfce DE items
[18:24] <ali1234> the autostart launcher *is* xdg-autostart
[18:25] <sidi> i think the autostart code should be extended to deal with priorities, as a priority number is much simpler to implement than actual dependencies
[18:25] <sidi> that covers all the needs of OEM integrators like you guys
[18:25] <sidi> and advanced users can still tinker about
[18:25] <ali1234> that will require extending the xdg-autostart spec to support dependencies
[18:25] <sidi> oh right
[18:25] <ali1234> someone came up with some ideas how to do that
[18:25] <sidi> well then maybe systemd yes
[18:25] <sidi> that's more sensical
[18:25] <sidi> and a UI to systemd
[18:26] <ali1234> let me see if i can find the thread or bug reports
[18:26] <sidi> ali1234, yeah i had commented on this i think
[18:26] <sidi> ali1234, eventually systemd will probably eat xdg-autostart alive
[18:26] <ali1234> yes
[18:26] <ali1234> systemd unit files aren't limited like .desktop files
[18:26] <sidi> right now the duplication is just too obvious and embarassing
[18:26] <ali1234> they can have dependencies
[18:27] <sidi> ali1234, hopefully from the survey i can get a good sketch of what we want to support and what the UI(s) should look like
[18:27] <sidi> then we can verify if systemd does the job and talk about it
[18:27] <sidi> but Xfce is more than just Linux sadly this means systemd is only one implementation
[18:27] <sidi> so supporting xdg-autostart would be necessary
[18:27] <sidi> or at least keeping the current codebase alive
[18:27] <ali1234> yeah, that it true
[18:27] <sidi> but maybe removing its UI
[18:28] <sidi> aaah
[18:28] <sidi> first things first
[18:28] <sidi> understanding whats good
[18:28] <ali1234> however note the difference between init pid 1 and session management
[18:28] <sidi> then talking about making it happen
[18:28] <knome> silly steve
[18:28] <ali1234> systemd does both but it doesn't HAVE to do both
[18:28] <ali1234> the same as with upstart
[18:28] <sidi> ali1234, it's hard to tell the BSD people to build and run systemd for only some of its features as a core Xfce dependency
[18:29] <sidi> and its also hard to make systemd do less than it desires to, as far as i understand
[18:29] <ali1234> yes, systemd is not perfect. i with they would split it up properly
[18:29] <sidi> there probably are reasons why they dont
[18:29] <ali1234> otoh it isn't as bad as people think
[18:29] <sidi> reasons beyond the FUD
[18:29] <ali1234> no, i don't think there are
[18:29] <ali1234> the stated reasons are "we want change the code fast and not support legacy versions"
[18:30] <ali1234> which is understandable, but terrible for users
[18:30] <sidi> ah well
[18:30] <sidi> my contribution to Linux is too insignificant for me to understand what's the best on the long term
[18:30] <ali1234> i don't have any idea either
[18:31] <ali1234> nobody has any idea what they are doing
[18:31] <ali1234> it took me a long time to realise this, but it is true
[18:34] <sidi> Linux is too big
[18:34] <sidi> has too many types of users
[18:34] <sidi> it takes thousands of people years of work to make significant changes to an OS
[18:34] <sidi> speculative experimentation is necessary sometimes, i think
[18:50] <ali1234> i'm all for asking the users what they want. not sure how good the answer could ever be, but that's not really the point
[20:33] <ali1234> ochosi, bluesabre: i may have signed us up for some extra work...
[20:34] <ali1234> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1411-ubuntu-mate-remix - ubuntu mate is using lightdm-gtk-greeter and indicators, and they have some patches for both...
[20:34] <elfy> looked to me like you'd signed yourself up :D
[20:34] <ali1234> for the indicator stuff yes :)
[20:34] <elfy> :)
[20:35] <elfy> good lord
[20:35] <elfy> Xubuntu is missing Indicators in Ubquity. WIll contact ali1234 and elfy
[20:35] <ali1234> haha
[20:35] <elfy> he'll soon realise the futility in that then :p
[20:40] <skellat> ali1234: Only picking up 1 work item isn't bad.  I've racked up 7-8 so far during UOS1411.
[20:41] <ali1234> hmm what's this about lightdm-gtk-greeter dropping gtk2 support?
[20:41] <ali1234> will that affect us?
[20:42] <skellat> I haven't the foggiest clue
[20:42] <ali1234> let's hope not anyway
[20:42]  * skellat heads outside to start shoveling snow from the driveway as it is looking treacherous
[20:45] <ali1234> looks like we already use the gtk3 version
[20:50] <brainwash> since 13.10 I think
[21:07] <elfy> jjfrv8: looking at bug 1391636 - the tracker testcase doesn't match the code at launchpad, looks like this has already been fixed. Just need another pair of eyes on it if you've time.
[21:30] <slickymaster> elfy, how come can that happen? The only way it could happen is if the tracker isn't updated after a merging in the main branch
[21:33] <elfy> yep
[23:39] <bluesabre> ali1234: yeah, we dropped gtk2 support from lightdm-gtk-greeter, does not affect us.  Dropping gtk2 let us streamline a lot of code and drop hackiness
[23:40] <bluesabre> patches are welcome, I might have missed them