[08:22] <kraut> moin
[15:31] <greg-g> @time Detroit
[15:31] <ubotu> Current time in America/Detroit: December 06 2007, 10:31:49 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 6 days
[15:31] <greg-g> @time UTC
[15:32] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 06 2007, 15:32:03 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 6 days
[15:51]  * pitti waves
[15:56] <Riddell> hi
[15:57]  * ArneGoetje waves
[15:58] <calc> hi
[15:58] <evand> hi
[15:58] <asac> hi
[15:58]  * ogra waves
[15:58]  * mvo waves
[15:59]  * lool waves back
[16:00] <dholbach> hi
[16:00] <Riddell> do we have an agenda?
[16:02] <dholbach> there's only one thing I want to talk about: how to make daily pings for http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ unnecessary
[16:02] <Riddell> dholbach: daily e-mails instead?
[16:02] <Riddell> might get a bit ignorable I suppose
[16:02] <pitti> best solution: just do it
[16:03] <dholbach> yes and a bit irksome for me :)
[16:03] <lool> dholbach: You could cron an email all N days for people actually having some sponsoring to do
[16:03] <pitti> more emails won't help, I'm afraid
[16:03] <dholbach> and it's just some bugs that are open for several weeks without any comment
[16:03] <Hobbsee> dholbach: use the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ™
[16:03] <pitti> you should already have one email from LP bugs in your inbox
[16:03] <dholbach> most people do a good job
[16:04] <pitti> if you ignore that, you can as well ignore the nagmails
[16:04] <lool> pitti: I often miss it for some reason
[16:04] <pitti> does anyone actually feel that he doesn't *know* that he needs to sponsor something?
[16:04] <lool> While I could easily prioritize the reminder ping
[16:04] <seb128> dholbach: I'm not sure that the daily IRC notice as any impact on people who don't look to their bugs
[16:04] <pitti> i.e. I don't think that the notifications are the problem, it's about actually doiung it
[16:05] <dholbach> seb128: that's my experience too
[16:05] <lool> I personally discovered the sponsoring requests that I had to process via pings from Daniel; at least twice
[16:05] <pitti> if anyone feels that he misses the bug email, we should solve this with better email filtering instead
[16:05] <pitti> not by producing more email noise
[16:05] <seb128> lool: you should read bugs you get from launchpad ;-)
[16:05]  * pitti urges people to look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFilter
[16:06] <lool> pitti: The thing is it's easy to miss an incremental update to your TODO, but it's more reliable to get a full dump of your TODO
[16:06] <lool> seb128: I do, but sometimes I think that I'm subscribed for another reason
[16:06] <pitti> lool: just look at the page then
[16:06] <pitti> lool: above mail explains how to filter by reason
[16:06] <seb128> lool: well, there is http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ where you can pull too
[16:07] <lool> pitti: (I've read the page)
[16:07] <pitti> i. e. you can sort "you were subscribed because you need to sponsor this" separately (e. g. into your daily high-prio ubuntu folder instead of 'bugs')
[16:07] <pitti> if you guys want I add a specific example for sponsoring there
[16:07] <pitti> but it's straightforward to do
[16:07] <lool> I'll need to reorganize my mail reading then
[16:08] <pitti> lool: do you feel that this would be sufficient or would you need a different kind of notifictaion/
[16:08] <pitti> ?
[16:08] <pitti> all others, too
[16:08] <asac> i think its fine.
[16:09] <asac> (good enough)
[16:09] <dholbach> do you feel that weekly/monthly "this bug is waiting in the queue for weeks now" summary is helpful?
[16:09] <lool> I was personally fine with Daniel's notification, especially since they helped me discover things I should have sponsored and didn't; I wasn't too bothered when I had nothing to sponsor, but still made the cron proposal as to avoid this; it seems I'm the only person not capable to prioritize sponsoring requests, so I'll simply fix this
[16:09] <pitti> email has the advantage of being sticky until you delete it, and doesn't interrupt what you currently do, contrary to IRC pings
[16:09] <dholbach> lool: no no no, you're absolutely not
[16:09] <lool> Yeah, I'd prefer an email in all cases
[16:10] <lool> (when given the choice with an IRC ping)
[16:10] <cjwatson> we have people who like one or the other; so just do both?
[16:10] <seb128> the idea is also that dholbach should not have to ping people on IRC ;-)
[16:10]  * pitti prefers email, too; sponsorings are urgent, but only urgent as in 'do it today', not 'drop what you do and do it instantly'
[16:10] <lool> cjwatson: Some people hate the other it seems :)
[16:10] <ogra> seb128, he could hire a cheap berlin student :P
[16:10] <pitti> lool: oh, I wouldn't mind IRC pings; as long as I know that I am in control of bug mail I can just ignore it :)
[16:10] <dholbach> and it's ok if it takes a while to get the review/sponsoring done, sometimes patches are hairy or need to go through a couple of iteration
[16:11] <dholbach> iterations
[16:11] <dholbach> the problem is that some patches go uncommented for weeks and months
[16:12] <seb128> ogra: isn't dholbach that already? ;-)
[16:12] <Riddell> dholbach: how is your list made?
[16:12] <dholbach> Riddell: all bugs of the list links on the page, minus the 'incomplete ones'
[16:12]  * lool thinks he didn't want to bump the priority of these bugs over the others nor split them out in their own queue; but it seems it's the only sane thing to do
[16:12] <ogra> seb128, lol
[16:13] <dholbach> Riddell: "responsible" = subscribers+assignee-(people not in ubuntu-dev)
[16:13] <lool> Admitting I miss sponsoring subscriptions and need to special case them is admitting that I don't read my bug mail properly to some level
[16:13] <pitti> lool: don't worry; I guess most of us (except seb128 of course) can't keep up with their package bug mail
[16:14] <pitti> but all of us should keep up with bug mail which is sent because someone subscribed you
[16:14] <dholbach> I'd like to point out that the discussion is not about lool and how he reads bug email. He generally does a good job on sponsoring bugs. I'd like to hear opinions from others too.
[16:14] <seb128> pitti: I've stopped replying to every single of those now, I'm just read them and let pedro do most of the triage ;-)
[16:14]  * seb128 hugs pedro_
[16:15] <slangasek> lool: well, there doesn't seem to be any mail notification telling me that I've been subscribed to the bug as a sponsor, so "properly reading" the mail seems to *require* pitti's recommended mail filtering
[16:15] <lool> dholbach: But then if I'm the only one liking the system, I should be the one defending it or change my habbits
[16:15]  * pedro_ hugs seb128 back
[16:15] <dholbach> lool: you're the only one who spoke up :)
[16:15] <cjwatson> sponsorship bugs are, of course, not the only classes of bugs that developers need to be reminded about
[16:15] <slangasek> (which precludes imap+mutt as a mail solution for work mail, which I'm not currently keen to switch away from)
[16:15] <lool> slangasek: I actually show the headers which pitti speaks of in Mutt when reading the mail :)
[16:15] <cjwatson> release-critical bugs are another rather obvious one
[16:15] <slangasek> lool: heh, ok.
[16:15] <pitti> slangasek: (I do use imap+mutt+offlineimap, what's the problem with it?)
[16:15] <cjwatson> and bugs that people have effectively asked to be reminded about, by means of targeting them to a milestone
[16:16] <slangasek> pitti: no procmail in the pipeline?
[16:16] <pitti> slangasek: well, that's done on the server
[16:16] <pitti> (OT here, sorry; will move that to #u-devel)
[16:17] <cjwatson> it seems that part of the objection to reminders about sponsorship bugs is that it elevates them above more important things, but perhaps the real problem there is that we don't have a routine mechanism for reminding people about the more important things
[16:17] <lool> dholbach: Ah what about reminding about *old* bugs?
[16:17] <lool> dholbach: IOW, checking since how long the bug should have been sponsored, and send a reminder in this case?
[16:18] <lool> cjwatson: I fully agree it would be a nice addition
[16:18] <dholbach> lool: that'd involve parsing of the activity log of the bug to automate it
[16:18] <pitti> cjwatson: or a standard way of prioritizing bugs
[16:18] <cjwatson> we were just talking about that on the distro team leads call
[16:18] <cjwatson> and I expect we'll talk about it some more on the call tomorrow to firm up procedures for bug nominations
[16:18] <pitti> some people use tags, some (like me) use 'in progress' for the ones they are tackling next, some have it in their head, etc.
[16:19] <lool> dholbach: Can you simplify that if it's about bugs which have a patch since long and are to be sponsored?
[16:19] <cjwatson> pitti: agreed
[16:19] <dholbach> lool: I'll think about how to achieve that
[16:19] <Riddell> lool: why?  I also want to know about patches which have appeared recently
[16:19] <lool> Would it be possible to use the Assignee and simply send people a list of bugs they are assigned to once a month?
[16:20] <pitti> Riddell: isn't that what bug mail is for?
[16:20] <dholbach> Riddell: just as a measure to find out which bugs I really need to prod people :)
[16:20] <Riddell> pitti: sure, but things are easily missed there
[16:20] <lool> Riddell: Only for the *reminder*; you'd still get the current subscription notifications
[16:20] <dholbach> lool: the problem with using assignees is that nobody else will dare to work on the bug and do it instead of you
[16:20] <pitti> Riddell: true that
[16:20] <dholbach> it's like a "lock"
[16:20] <cjwatson> I think assignees *should* be used for release-critical bugs
[16:21] <cjwatson> not necessarily for everything, but for things that have to get done, somebody should generally be on the hook for them
[16:21]  * slangasek nods
[16:21]  * bryce nods
[16:21] <dholbach> OK
[16:21] <lool> dholbach: But then if you assigned someone for sponsoring, certainly that person should do it and not another, otherwise you risk work duplication?
[16:21] <pitti> agreed
[16:21] <cjwatson> that doesn't necessarily go for sponsorship though
[16:21] <pitti> that works well with merges already, after all
[16:22] <lool> Perhaps instead of not using the assignee for sponsoring, we could use the assignee and reassign if he's too busy?
[16:22] <dholbach> lool: we had cases where I assigned bugs to people of the distro team and community folks would have done them during the week they were sitting in the queue
[16:22] <lool> dholbach: In which case it's possible that two people reviewed the same patches?
[16:22] <dholbach> it's only natural to think "ok, the assignee is surely going to do it"
[16:23] <pitti> right
[16:23] <lool> I personally wouldn't take other bugs than mine from the list you sent on IRC
[16:23] <dholbach> the sponsoring queue (for community developers) is driven by a general "hey I'm interested in working on this"
[16:23] <dholbach> not driven by "somebody decided that I should do it"
[16:23] <dholbach> so people triage the queue and work on things
[16:23] <dholbach> that's a big difference
[16:23] <lool> Ok, then perhaps have the bugs open for anyone early, don't subscribe individuals, then assign somebody if it takes too long?
[16:24] <dholbach> I like to make people aware of them early so they have a chance of getting done quickly
[16:24] <lool> Like first week is common queue, no assignee, second week pick an assignee because it shouldn't wait too long
[16:24] <dholbach> I don't feel that "wait until somebody takes care of the bug" is going to fix the problem
[16:24] <dholbach> the assignee thing didn't work either - we still had bugs sitting there for weeks
[16:24] <pitti> and the current round-robin(ish) approach also ensures that we share the load
[16:25] <lool> But it's easier to prod people who are assigned a bug
[16:25] <dholbach> that's what I use the sponsoring page for
[16:25] <Riddell> dholbach: what's actually wrong with daily pings?
[16:25] <dholbach> it lists the developers who are aware of the bug
[16:25] <dholbach> Riddell: it's work for me and it still doesn't work for some people
[16:25] <dholbach> it's not an optimal process
[16:26] <dholbach> I mean I don't mind doing it, but reminding somebody 5 or 6 times of a patch - I don't feel that scales once we have more contributors
[16:26] <lool> dholbach: I didn't quite get the exact drawbacks of my latest proposal which are not shared by the other proposals?
[16:26] <ogra> dholbach, you could add a function to ubotu :)
[16:26]  * ogra hides
[16:26] <bryce> how many bugs need sponsoring week to week?
[16:27] <lool> bryce: dholbach told us it would increase sharply with the outreach program
[16:27] <cjwatson> what we were discussing in the team leads call was having each team lead bring up assigned release-critical bugs on a weekly basis in their meetings
[16:27] <cjwatson> we could add sponsored bugs to that, since after all we've committed Canonical time to code review
[16:27] <dholbach> 275 mails on ubuntu-main-sponsors last month, 700 on ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[16:27] <dholbach> bryce: ^
[16:28] <seb128> dholbach: mails, or different threads?
[16:28] <dholbach> mails
[16:28] <dholbach> cjwatson: so a weekly status mail with long-standing bugs would probably help?
[16:29] <pitti> ATM it's maybe one or two bugs a week?
[16:29] <pitti> (per assignee)
[16:29] <lool> dholbach: (I personally feel sorry that you have to script things around launchpad and ping us manually; which is why I proposed using the assignee field)
[16:29] <pitti> dholbach: can your list be sorted by age? i. e. time since you assigned the bug to someone?
[16:30] <lool> dholbach: But perhaps this needs more specialized pages in launchpad?
[16:30] <dholbach> lool: as I said... it's not your fault, not at all and I tried the assignee thing before; some MOTUs were really unhappy about it because the lock on the bug was taken for too long
[16:30] <dholbach> pitti: that'd require parsing of the activity log - I'll wrap my head around it
[16:30] <cjwatson> dholbach: perhaps
[16:30] <seb128> is anybody finding weekly mails useful? I think a webpage with the summary is better for that sort of thing
[16:30] <pitti> dholbach: ok; nevermind if it's too complicated
[16:30] <dholbach> pitti: I'll think about it
[16:30] <slangasek> seb128: polling-- :)
[16:30] <seb128> too many mails-- ;-)
[16:30] <lool> seb128: I wouldn't visit every week
[16:31] <cjwatson> dholbach: I'd certainly like to have something whereby we could ensure some kind of consistency across team leads about what we're nagging about
[16:31] <pitti> --weekly mails, but I'm not opposed to getting and ignoring them
[16:31] <lool> I would have to write a cron sending me an email with the URL to that page :)
[16:31] <seb128> I tend to not read all those weekly mails on the debian lists
[16:31] <seb128> just hit delete on them and find them annoying
[16:31] <cjwatson> I'm not sure *everybody* has to visit it - having each person's manager look at it weekly or so could do
[16:31] <dholbach> can we maybe get quick action items out of the discussion? I don't feel this should take up all the time of the meeting
[16:31] <cjwatson> and for everyone else it could be something you look at when feeling industrious
[16:32] <lool> seb128: I find them great!
[16:32] <seb128> ok, so as pitti said "--weekly mails, but I'm not opposed to getting and ignoring them"
[16:32] <dholbach> ok... I'll wrap my head around "age of the patch" idea
[16:32] <lool> dholbach: Should we list proposals?  and if we don't get consensus vote for them?
[16:33] <cjwatson> I think we should institute weekly mails and ensure that they can be trivially procmailed, and then review in a few weeks to find out who's still actually reading them
[16:33] <dholbach> and let you know about it - up until then I could do those weekly mails instead
[16:33] <dholbach> ok... I'll take care of that then
[16:33] <lool> Thanks Daniel!
[16:33] <dholbach> de rien
[16:34]  * pitti hugs dholbach
[16:34] <asac> sounds good
[16:34]  * dholbach hugs y'all
[16:34]  * mvo hugs dholbach
[16:34] <cjwatson> what's next on the agenda
[16:34] <cjwatson> ?
[16:34] <Riddell> we have an agenda?
[16:34] <cjwatson> I was wondering
[16:34] <Riddell> 65 merges to go http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
[16:34] <cjwatson> one item which was raised was the purpose of this meeting
[16:34] <pitti> 92
[16:35] <Riddell> oh yes, I was reading the wrong one
[16:35] <cjwatson> since we have a lot more Canonical distro staff than we used to, we no longer drag everyone into a giant meeting on a weekly basis
[16:35] <Riddell> that's a lot of merges
[16:35] <cjwatson> and instead we have smaller team meetings
[16:35] <cjwatson> the majority of those are public
[16:36] <cjwatson> is it necessary to have this "everyone" meeting any more, and if so, what can people expect to get out of it?
[16:36] <bryce> are there going to be many topics that need discussion with the whole development team?
[16:37] <cjwatson> bryce: not many, though the sponsorship one above wasn't a bad example
[16:37] <pitti> it's now too infrequent to be useful IMHO; few things can wait for a month
[16:37] <pitti> but right, above example just proved me wrong
[16:38] <pitti> discussion about policy and effective working can wait that long
[16:38] <cjwatson> (hoary kickoff!)
[16:38] <lool> I personally find myself attending too many meetings along the week, so would enjoy smaller + shorter meetings; a high number of people might imply longer meetings
[16:39]  * dholbach agrees with lool
[16:39] <cjwatson> if a meeting isn't useful, it shouldn't be happening, certainly
[16:39] <dholbach> it's just important to have summaries of those meetings, so you can find out about things which happened in a meeting you weren't in
[16:39] <pitti> so maybe we should only actually have it if there's an agenda
[16:40] <lool> Or schedule a meeting each time we need to discuss something in common
[16:40] <lool> Which is the same :)
[16:40] <cjwatson> the platform meetings have been half-private half-public, but in practice there's been very little that needed to be private there, so perhaps we can simply have all of those on #ubuntu-meeting
[16:41] <asac> ack
[16:41] <cjwatson> I think most of the other team meetings are entirely public
[16:41] <lool> +1
[16:41] <bryce> agreed
[16:41] <asac> actually i think the idea to have small meetings open for everyone is the right way.
[16:41] <cjwatson> so if we simply put them all on the Fridge and removed the "everyone" meeting, would that work?
[16:41] <pitti> +1
[16:41] <bryce> +1
[16:41] <asac> +1
[16:41] <pitti> we can still invite guys from other teams to a particular meeting if needed
[16:42] <ogra> +1
[16:42] <cjwatson> and indeed many of you do already cross over
[16:42] <cjwatson> which is excellent
[16:42] <seb128> +1
[16:42] <tedg> ++ ;)
[16:43] <cjwatson> this may be the least unpopular proposal in some time. Does anyone dissent? :-)
[16:43] <mdz_> sorry, I've been having network difficulties
[16:44]  * lool . o O ( Non-democratic vote spotted! )
[16:44] <cjwatson> mdz_: [proposal: cancel this meeting, make all the other team meetings public unless there's a specific reason, put them all on the Fridge. No dissent so far ...]
[16:44] <calc> +1 (for having meetings in public
[16:44] <lool> cjwatson: On a related topic, can we rename the meeting to something else than "Community..."?
[16:45]  * calc was distracted by a phone call
[16:45] <cjwatson> lool: well, if it doesn't exist, it doesn't need to be renamed
[16:45] <lool> Perfect
[16:45] <mdz_> cjwatson: apart from the fridge dysfunction, I don't see an issue
[16:45] <mdz_> that sounds like more or less current practice
[16:46] <Riddell> team leads to e-mail fridge-devel with meeting times?
[16:46]  * Hobbsee wonders if someone random will yell "i object"
[16:47] <cjwatson> who are fridge-devel right now?
[16:48] <Riddell> nixternal does my calendar updates
[16:49] <Riddell> otherwise corey, mrevell and nali seem active
[16:49] <cjwatson> ok
[16:50] <Riddell> any other business?
[16:53] <cjwatson> nothing from me
[16:55] <slangasek> public service announcement: DebianImportFreeze deadline is one week away, please finish your merges, if you need help merging all the packages still on your list then please ask. :)
[16:57] <cjwatson> +1
[16:57] <cjwatson> some people have quite a few, while others have capacity
[17:08] <ArneGoetje> anything else or is the meeting adjourned?
[17:12] <Riddell> ArneGoetje: I think you're free to go :)
[17:16] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: thanks. Good night!
[17:18] <cjwatson> whoops, I thought somebody had adjourned the meeting but nobody did. Adjourned. :-)
[17:20] <asac> bye ;)


[23:35] <max3> can someone help me understand something about process scheduling in operating systems? is it possible to have a process run for exactly its quantum in round-robin scheduling? if the quantum is some multiple of the timer interrupt period for example?
[23:35] <lulnix> dog-food --- is it possible to play steam games with open source drivers then?
[23:35] <faugusztin> ggherdov: are you trying to install virtualbox inside a chroot inside your arch linux system ?
[23:36] <ggherdov> faugusztin: no. It's an ubuntu server 12.04. Why do you say so?
[23:37] <dog-food> lulnix, fglrx is the proprietary driver
[23:37] <faugusztin> ggherdov: because it found some 2.6.38 kernel instead of 3.xx 12.04 has
[23:38] <ggherdov> faugusztin: I just noted the same thing. It is a machine I rent from a server farm. They probably did some custom stuff.
[23:39] <faugusztin> ggherdov: /proc/modules can't be opened either - something clearly isn't right. my bet is tat you are inside kvm/openvz, and i don't think you will be able to run vbox inside that
[23:39] <ggherdov> and I am probably in a chroot
[23:39] <faugusztin> *that
[23:40] <ggherdov> faugusztin: just spaculating at random, any chance I can install some virtualization of other sort? like QEMU or linux VServer ? What do you think?
[23:40] <ggherdov> speculating*
[23:41] <faugusztin> vm inside a vm ? not sure, maybe some full cpu emulation like qemu, but that will be slow
[23:42] <ggherdov> faugusztin: what I am paying for is not a vm, the contract says I am paying for a physical machine. Otherwise I am being scammed :)
[23:42]  * ggherdov double checks the contract
[23:43] <metasansana> Is there a way to listen for syslog events from an application?
[23:46] <ggherdov> metasansana: no idea, but I see a #syslog-ng channel here in freenode. 22 people inside.
[23:46] <metasansana> ggherdov, thanks
[23:50] <Kalel> Can I mak a bootable pen drive from a live cd
[23:50] <Kalel> I couldnt
[23:55] <pfifo> hello world
[23:57] <Ownix> when I do a udisks --mount /dev/sdc5 it mounts it with a label like /77s8dfsad7f6sa7dfs-fd8as7df7-87483748gshj/
[23:57] <Ownix> How do I mount my disk with a human readable name?
[23:57] <Ownix> Im assuming the disk does not have a label and thats why its mounting it with its serail number as its name?
[23:59] <Jordan_U> Ownix: You could add a label to the filesystem (Not to the "disk").
[23:59] <freannrak> I've a question about unity winkey+appnumber navigation? I've been using it to swap between applications on different workplaces. I've got chrome on workspace1, terminal on workspace2 and skype on workspace3. They also exist on my unity launchbar 1-2-3. I'm able to navigate between chrome and terminal using winkey+1/2, but i'm unable to navigate to workspace3 with winkey+3.
[23:59] <Ownix> Yep that was the issue. sudo e2label labeled the drive and now a udisks mount mounts it with that drive label
[23:59] <Ownix> Jordan_U: labeled the filesystem***


[01:56] <kdskr> have i ubuntu to my samsung gakaxy s7 edge
[01:56] <kdskr> ?
[02:56] <black_pixel> hi
[02:58] <duflu> Hi. I thought holding conversations in 4 channels at once wasn't enough so let's do five
[03:14] <black_pixel> LOL
[03:15] <black_pixel> weee 5 hours of using unity8 on the desktop
[03:15] <black_pixel> new record
[10:48] <mcphail> Has there been a decision made on whether snaps are coming to the e4.5? Presumably the kernel issues are insurmountable?
[11:02] <DanChapman> mcphail: I think it's still early days on that decision, but i would have thought your assumptions on the kernel limitations are correct
[11:21] <mcphail> DanChapman: thanks
[11:27] <Saviq> Elleo, hey, I'm getting http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/23751762/ and transparent OSK, ideas?
[11:28] <Saviq> the wizard didn't set something?
[11:41] <Saviq> Elleo, huh, changing it to "en" via gsettings didn't help, now it's saying that en isn't enabled O.o
[11:41] <Elleo> Saviq: what platform is that on? Desktop?
[11:41] <Saviq> Elleo, frieza
[11:42] <Saviq> arm64
[11:42] <Saviq> xenial
[11:43] <Elleo> ah, I haven't tried flashing a device with frieza's arm64 image yet, I had heard that the current image was pretty broken from people that had
[11:43] <SebthreeBQM10HD> hey
[11:43] <SebthreeBQM10HD> anyone around ?
[11:43] <SebthreeBQM10HD> bregma, to early ? ogra_  ping
[11:44] <SebthreeBQM10HD> anyway
[11:45] <SebthreeBQM10HD> just been reading omgubuntu about  how apparntly UBUNTU Touch is dead, well thats not what the blog post actsually says, but how certain people seem to interupt things in the comments
[11:45] <Elleo> Saviq: I don't think the subview error is anything to worry about though, that's just due to us not using maliit's subview system for actually handling the plugin switching
[11:45] <SebthreeBQM10HD> since wont have usual ota updats etc.  the transiting to new things etc :)
[11:45] <SebthreeBQM10HD> response to mailing list
[11:46] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Elleo, dev or user ?
[11:46] <SebthreeBQM10HD> some people really dont get it it seems
[11:46] <Saviq> SebthreeBQM10HD, check out the mailing list
[11:46] <Saviq> the discussion's been going there for a few weeks
[11:47] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Saviq, yeah there was a mailing list post that got linked to explaining things nicely,  but this omgubuntu link.  I am just generally commenting
[11:47] <SebthreeBQM10HD> I Know thing aren' dead, things are coming etc
[11:48] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Saviq, makes sense to drop new features for the 15.04 base I guess though, since thats on the verge of being completly dropped a
[11:48] <Saviq> yes, that's definitely part of the picture, maintaining click/15.04-based releases was a pain
[11:49] <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh actsually can the bq 4.5  ubuntu support the new snaps Ubuntu that is coming ?
[11:49] <SebthreeBQM10HD> or are those phones going to get dropped
[11:49] <Elleo> Saviq: one idea, maybe try disabling unity's keyboard supression by changing oskEnabled to true in OrientedShell.qml to see if there's anything on that xenial image presenting itself as a hardware keyboard and so preventing the OSK from displaying?
[11:50] <Saviq> Elleo, it's not suppressed, things are actually moving around, it's just that it's transparent... the QSG errros say "expect rendering issues", maybe that's that?
[11:50] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Saviq, seems going by things I just read, its not so clear, if the BQ 4.5 will be able to support a new snappy ubuntu
[11:50] <Elleo> Saviq: maybe, does that show up in the logs for any other apps?
[11:51] <Saviq> Elleo, not that I've seen
[11:54] <Saviq> SebthreeBQM10HD, we'd need vendor support to get there, need newer kernels, and those we're getting from the OEMs - couldn't say, really
[11:55] <Elleo> Saviq: are you able to press keys on the invisible keyboard?
[11:55] <Saviq> Elleo, good question, will try in a sec
[11:55] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Saviq, you mean the phones would need some actsual later manufacture firmwire ?
[11:56] <Saviq> SebthreeBQM10HD, well, newer kernel - we can update those on existing devices, but we'd need to get it from the OEM
[11:57] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Saviq, BQ probably don't really care much about the 4.5 and EF HD now.  Meizu MX4 better hardware, but again if that were to be a issue phone. Meizu woudn't realy care about it now
[11:57] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Saviq, you mean their kernel, with their drivers etc
[11:57] <SebthreeBQM10HD> ?
[11:57] <Saviq> SebthreeBQM10HD, that's where we're getting the kernel and drivers from, yes
[11:58] <SebthreeBQM10HD> Saviq, so for those devices to have support with Snap based Ubuntu,  the OEM's would have to provide kernel and drivers, oh ok
[12:01] <Saviq> Elleo, no, no interaction with the keyboard
[12:01] <ogra_> if it is an invisible keyboard you probably have to close your eyes to interact with it
[12:01] <ogra_> :P
[12:21] <Elleo> Saviq: maybe not just a rendering issue then; I'm wondering if it's possible that the surface is ending up behind everything else?
[12:22] <Saviq> Elleo, unlikely, but not impossible - also one important data point is that it was fine until I completed the wizard... bootstrapped now so will let you know if that reproduces
[12:23] <black_pixel> welp does anyone know if frieza_arm64/staging/r116 is bootable?
[12:23] <Elleo> Saviq: interesting
[12:23] <Saviq> black_pixel, bootable, yes, but that's about it...
[12:23] <black_pixel> thanks Saviq :D then i'll wait for a new image
[12:24] <Elleo> Saviq: it'd be good to know if you get those rendering error messages while it's working in the wizard too
[12:25] <black_pixel> Saviq: what is in that image? it's just xenial+overlay and maybe unity8 snap? last time i looked it didn't seem like something you see in personal
[12:26] <Saviq> black_pixel, no snap, not for a while still
[12:26] <black_pixel> so it's just xenial+overlay :D
[12:26] <black_pixel> Saviq:  ok thanks :D
[12:26] <Saviq> yes, "traditional" still, we're working on a snap-based image
[12:30] <black_pixel> nice :D
[12:43] <Saviq> Elleo, same messages, OSK fine in wizard... and then after wizard ever touch makes it slide down O.o
[12:43] <Saviq> might be somewhat related to the fact that orientation sensor is nowhere to be found...
[12:44] <Saviq> jibel, has anything changed in device tarball and such? think it would be possible to go back to a working image and start upgrading packages one by one?
[12:44] <Saviq> there seem to be just too many issues...
[12:47] <Elleo> Saviq: okay, guess I'll try and get my m10 flashed to that image and see if I can figure anything out :/
[12:48] <Saviq> Elleo, note device is frieza_arm64
[12:49] <Elleo> Saviq: right
[12:51] <Elleo> Saviq: does it need to be a specific image? I seem to remember someone mentioning that some of the more recent ones don't boot
[12:52] <Saviq> Elleo, the newest one does boot, but there's *issues* - downgrade dbus* to the released version, that gets you most of the way towards a working thing
[12:52] <Saviq> not sure yet why we got proposed enabled in there
[12:52] <Elleo> okay, which channel?
[12:53] <Saviq> Elleo, ubuntu-touch/ubuntu/staging
[12:53] <Elleo> thanks
[13:02] <Saviq> Elleo, found something in unity8.log
[13:02] <Saviq> greyback, [2017-01-06:13:04:45.216] qtmir.surfaces: MirSurface[0x1f811190,"-"]::dropPendingBuffer() dropped=0 left=1 - failed to upate texture
[13:02] <Saviq> ring a bell?
[13:03] <Saviq> yeah that has to be it
[13:03] <Saviq> happens every time maliit tries to draw
[13:03] <greyback> Saviq: usually means the surface isn't made visible in the shell
[13:04] <greyback> i.e. a MirSurfaceItem for it was not created, or set visible
[13:04] <Saviq> that would be our bug then
[13:05] <Elleo> Saviq: never seen that before
[13:05] <Saviq> Elleo, ↑ we need some investigation on our side
[13:05] <Elleo> Saviq: okay cool, I'll hold off on breaking my m10 then :P
[13:05] <greyback> something funky going on alright
[13:06] <greyback> is there a bug with a quick summary of how to repro?
[13:18] <Saviq> greyback, yeah, flash frieza ;)
[13:18] <Saviq> filing a bug in a mo
[13:19] <Saviq> Elleo, just realized maliit-server.conf is only an upstart job in ubuntu-touch-session... shouldn't we have it in unity8-desktop-session, too?
[13:20] <greyback> would be sensible
[13:22] <greyback> Saviq: what channel has the xenial image?
[13:23] <greyback> devel-prpposed?
[13:23] <jibel> greyback, staging/ubuntu
[13:23] <Elleo> Saviq: yeah, I'd have thought so
[13:24] <Saviq> greyback, --device frieza_arm64
[13:24] <Saviq> Elleo, TBH it shouldn't be in any -session at all, should it - should be shipped with the keyboard?
[13:24] <Saviq> yay, reproduced OSK jumping jacks
[13:24] <Saviq> on desktop
[13:24] <greyback> Saviq: ack thanks, fetching image 116
[13:25] <Elleo> Saviq: maybe, I'm not sure what the original reasoning was behind sticking it in the -session packages was, that predates me :)
[13:25] <Saviq> yeah, there probably wasn't any, except for "it'll do, will fix that later"
[13:25] <Elleo> heh
[13:25] <Saviq> the definition of tech debt, really
[13:29] <Saviq> greyback, note you'll need to downgrade dbus to the !proposed version to get *anywhere*
[13:29] <greyback> ok
[13:29]  * greyback goes for lunch while it flashes
[13:47] <mterry> morphis_: hello!  I was interested in checking out how the pulseaudio snap works -- is there source somewhere?
[13:47] <mterry> morphis_: I'm interested in relying on it for the unity8 snap
[13:47] <mterry> morphis_: do I just need to add the slot "pulseaudio"?  (is that autoconnected for me?)
[13:48] <Saviq> Elleo, it's the OSK that's dealing with the drag-down-to-dismiss gesture, right? I've managed to reproduce a jumping-jack-OSK on a zesty desktop (using http://paste.ubuntu.com/23752185/ to force it to show in the first place)
[13:49] <Elleo> Saviq: yeah, it is; I don't get that behaviour on my xenial desktop though
[13:50] <Elleo> Saviq: actually, could you expand on what you mean by jumping-jack OSK to make sure I'm understanding the issue right? Is it dismissing when you attempt to press a key?
[13:50] <Saviq> Elleo, yes, and coming right back up
[13:51] <Elleo> Saviq: and is the keyboard actually displaying or is it invisible like on the m10?
[13:51] <Saviq> Elleo, displaying
[13:52] <taiebot> With all the negativity of the mailing list i cannot still made up my mind if there will be a new phone with UT.  Is  it worth waiting for wmc ? My nexus 4 stopped charging and I ended up replacing battery and charging port but i feel they were not as good  as originals, so my UT device is near end of life. :'(
[13:55] <taiebot> New charging port has made the notification led blue instead of green :P
[13:55] <Saviq> Elleo, check out the two videos https://owncloud.sawicz.net/index.php/s/OK21qJqovYb5X0w
[13:56] <morphis_> mterry: hey!
[13:57] <morphis_> mterry: sounds great! however the pulseaudio snap currently doesn't support running pulseaudio in a user session but only in system wide mode
[13:57] <morphis_> so I don't know how well this works with the unity8 session snap
[13:57] <mterry> morphis_: yeah I was also curious about that  :)
[13:57]  * mterry isn't familiar with system wide mode
[13:57] <mterry> Just root can play sounds?
[13:57] <morphis_> for IoT devices we don't have any other chance but for personal devices we should add support for that
[13:57] <morphis_> mterry: right now, yes
[13:57] <Saviq> Elleo, bug #1654563
[13:57] <ubot5`> bug 1654563 in ubuntu-keyboard (Ubuntu) "OSK jumping up and down on click/touch" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1654563
[13:57] <Elleo> Saviq: I'll setup a zesty vm and see if I can reproduce it there
[13:58] <morphis_> mterry: but its a valid use case to support untiy8 as well we just didn't had a requirement for that yet
[13:58] <morphis_> mterry: source is at https://code.launchpad.net/~snappy-hwe-team/snappy-hwe-snaps/+git/pulseaudio/+ref/master
[13:58] <Saviq> Elleo, FWIW I saw the same on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:58] <mterry> morphis_: how do I add one?  :P
[13:58] <morphis_> mterry: you have access on https://trello.com/b/6xj9V2bb/system-enablement-backlog ?
[13:58] <mterry> morphis_: I wish snaps had "Source:" metadata for open source ones  :)
[13:59] <mterry> morphis_: yes
[13:59] <morphis_> mterry: me too, we include the source link in the description of all our snaps
[13:59] <morphis_> mterry: you should see it with $ snap info pulseaudio
[13:59] <mterry> morphis_: ah very cool thanks
[14:00] <Elleo> Saviq: odd, as I don't get it in unity8 on my xenial desktop system :/
[14:01] <mterry> morphis_: I add to dartboard?
[14:01] <morphis_> mterry: yes, just add it at the bottom
[14:02] <morphis_> jhodapp: can you invite mterry to our stakeholder meeting?
[14:02] <jhodapp> morphis_, sure
[14:02] <morphis_> jhodapp: thanks
[14:03] <jhodapp> np
[14:03] <jhodapp> mterry, invited
[14:09] <Saviq> greyback, bug #1654568 btw
[14:09] <ubot5`> bug 1654568 in unity8 (Ubuntu) "OSK transparent - buffer not updated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1654568
[14:09] <greyback> ta
[14:13] <greyback> Saviq: how do I make the filesystem writable? phablet-config writable-image didn't work, nor has touch /userdata/.writable_image
[14:14] <greyback> or should I just muck with mount?
[14:15] <Saviq> greyback, mount -o remount,rw /
[14:15] <greyback> yep alright
[14:50] <black_pixel> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/webbrowser-app/+bug/1654578
[14:50] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 1654578 in webbrowser-app (Ubuntu) "webbrowser-app - Network error 301 protocol "filesystem" is unknown" [Undecided,New]
[14:51] <greyback> Saviq: have your tablet handy? I've got mine set up, and yes OSK surface appears "missing" on first boot. But if I open indicators (makes OSK go away), then close them, OSK re-appears and this time draws
[14:52] <Saviq> greyback, nope, still blank
[14:52] <greyback> hrmph
[14:52]  * greyback reboots and tries again
[14:53] <Saviq> greyback, but yeah it did show up at some point in a similar situation
[20:13] <diddledan> I'm saddened by the ML of late. So much vitriole.
[20:22] <mcphail> diddledan: I think there is inevitable frustration at this point. So near, yet so far


[12:54] <bgm0> hi, i was told to report upstream and maybe this is a good place. i could reduce the size of /usr/share/icons in 19% by using https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdesdk/kde-dev-scripts/repository/revisions/master/changes/optimizegraphics
[12:56] <bgm0> any contacts to upstream this info?