[06:52] <Lil-|^Red> Alo'  Red Morning Light | http://spoti.fi/10ReCAJ
[07:06] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: getting in? :)
[07:07] <kvarley> Having a bit of pain getting grub installed on an external USB drive. I have a Ubuntu FS which is unpacked onto an EXT4 partition on the USB drive, I've changed the fstab to match the UUID. Installed grub via grub-install but it won't boot when I plug it into my laptop. any ideas on stuff I might have missed?
[07:07] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: maybe the laptop can't boot off USB?
[07:08] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: I know it can :)
[07:08] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: did you grub-install to /dev/sdx or /dev/sdx1?
[07:08] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: # grub-install --boot-directory=/mnt /dev/sda
[07:09] <kvarley> The laptop shipped with Windows 8 but I have disabled secure boot, could it still be causing issues?
[07:09] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: I'd bind-mount /dev, /sys and /proc in to (where you've mounted /) and chroot into it :)
[07:10] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: --boot-directory never worked for me
[07:10] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: ah.. it still UEFI-boots? Do you have the UEFI boot partition stuff?
[07:10] <kvarley> Oh yeah sorry, once chrooted to /mnt I did mount sys mount proc mount dev
[07:10] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: No, that'd be why then :P
[07:46] <ali1234> MartijnVdS: getting in what?
[07:46] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: btc
[07:47] <ali1234> i've been in it for two years...
[07:47] <ali1234> i was just checking the version in precise... because that version is going to stop working soon
[07:47] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/bitcoin/+bug/1159832
[07:48] <diplo> AlanBell or TheOpenSourcerer, either of you about ?
[07:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> diplo: \o/
[07:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> 'sup?
[07:48] <diplo> Hiya, just got a question ref vTiger if you could help
[07:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> sure
[07:49] <diplo> A friend of mine runs a charity and wants some CRM software, I suggested vTiger and SugarCRM, but have used neither and know you guys use vTiger, just wondering benefits over either to recommend
[07:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> vtiger is opensource. Sugar is opencore (loads of the good bits are proprietary/expensive).
[07:50] <diplo> Also mentioning your company for support details as well and maybe installation but not sure where they are going to go with it
[07:50] <diplo> Ah, I thought i read something like that this morning
[07:50] <diplo> vtiger was forked from Sugar from what i read earlier a few years ago ?
[07:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yes, ~2005 IIRC
[07:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> now they are very different.
[07:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> I do shedloads of vtiger work. We are getting several new enquiries every week currently
[07:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> We can host it if they want. We can customise it.
[07:52] <diplo> Not sure what money they have yet, was just a question on facebook this morning, just linked her to your website
[07:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thanks.
[07:53] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:55] <diplo> Thanks for your input :) didnt want to spout off rubbish
[07:55] <diplo> Any new applications for the job yet ?
[07:55] <diplo> Morning MooDoo
[07:55] <MooDoo> I've been sharing the job application :)
[07:59] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[08:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> diplo: We have interviewed one and will be seeing another candidate on Friday.
[08:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thanks for reminding me - better get spamming the ether again today. Just in case anyone missed it.
[08:03] <diplo> heh, I'd love to do it but one i don't i can afford to and secondly I'm not really close enough :)
[08:03] <diplo> "i don't think i can afford to*"
[08:06] <jacobw> Morning
[08:06] <MooDoo> and i'm not clever enough lol
[08:06] <diplo> pfft
[08:06]  * TheOpenSourcerer keeps quiet
[08:06] <MooDoo> lol
[08:06]  * TheOpenSourcerer goes back to hacking vtiger CRM
[08:08] <MooDoo> :p
[08:10] <jacobw> I'm not if my own python scripts count as a 'contribution to open source projects'
[08:10] <jacobw> I guess they're on Launchpad :P
[08:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> Just in case anyone missed it and is wondering what the discussion is about: http://www.libertus.co.uk/about-us/jobs/7-free-software-engineer ;-)
[08:13] <diplo> heh
[08:18] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: ooo new job?  what's that all about ;) lol

[08:25] <mungbean> know any company thats looking to use high performance clusters, but doesn't want to own their own one?
[08:26] <mungbean> our company has beefy clusters and looking to engage with other business to let others use spare capacity
[08:27] <mungbean> (not sure if Azelphur bitcoin enterprises counts)
[08:29]  * Lil-|^Red buys an Silver Ubuntu sticker.
[08:53] <JamesTait> Happy sibling day, folks! :-D
[09:20] <jacobw> JamesTait: Sibling Day? Really?
[09:20] <JamesTait> jacobw, if daysoftheyear.com is to be believed. Which I'll let you decide. ;)
[09:21] <jacobw> Haha
[09:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> What if one's sibling is dead?
[09:21] <JamesTait> jacobw, it's on the internet, it must be true, right?
[09:22] <JamesTait> TheOpenSourcerer, then I suggest today is a good day to remember their memory. ;)
[09:22] <JamesTait> Honour their memory.
[09:22] <JamesTait> Something.
[09:22] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hmmm - never really liked him that much.
[09:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> But yes - a good idea. I will ponder on my bro's memory for a while.
[09:23] <mungbean> :-|
[09:23] <mungbean> sibling day is usually called their birthday
[09:24] <JamesTait> TheOpenSourcerer, reminds me of a plaque I saw above a bar once: "All of our customers bring us pleasure - some by arriving, others by leaving."
[09:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[09:25] <MooDoo> it's my birthday next week....booooo
[09:25] <mungbean> why boo
[09:26] <MooDoo> mungbean: another year older lol
[09:29] <mungbean> MooDoo: nah, its another day older
[09:29] <mungbean> you grew a year older in the 364 days in between
[09:29] <JamesTait> mungbean, +1
[09:29] <JamesTait> Er, no pun intended.
[09:30] <mungbean> :P
[09:30] <MooDoo> i'm 21 again :) lol
[09:30] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: 0x21
[09:32] <MooDoo> :)
[09:36] <mungbean> amazon cloud player is awful for linux users
[09:36] <MartijnVdS> s/for linux users//
[09:37] <popey> i found aquarius's blog post about google play on linux to be interesting
[09:37] <MooDoo> +1 sounds like all you need is HAL and you're good to go
[09:37] <mungbean> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnet-Expert-Ltd-Magnetic-Education/dp/B006FTCL02/
[09:37] <popey> yes, tested it, works well
[09:37] <mungbean> there must be a cool use for this
[09:38] <MooDoo> I do like google play
[09:38] <mungbean> linky please popey?
[09:39] <popey> http://kryogenix.org/days/2013/04/09/watching-films-on-ubuntu-in-england
[09:39] <mungbean> once your album is in cloud player you have to use a UA switcher to get the amz file and use in clamz
[09:40] <popey> or you could upload to google music
[09:40] <popey> which works fine on ubuntu
[09:41] <MooDoo> yup I use google music
[09:44] <mungbean> popey: i bought the albums in amazon though
[09:44] <mungbean> so it's getting them out thats the pain
[09:47] <mungbean> netflix etc have done a good job of conning non-customers into thinking they are a massive library of all films ever
[09:47] <popey> i dont actually use google or amazon music, I only use spotify
[09:47] <popey> but I am tempted to switch away
[09:47] <mungbean> i like to own music
[09:47] <popey> i dont use netflix for films, but tv series
[09:47] <mungbean> as i only buy around 10 albums a year max
[09:48] <mungbean> and the last 2 were suddenly reduced from £15 to £3
[09:49] <Lil-|^Red> popey, If it's for the spotify client : You need to put your suggestions here.. http://bit.ly/ZgMQvE
[09:50] <Lil-|^Red> leaves
[09:50] <popey> what?
[09:51] <SuperMatt> mungbean: you want to get really angry at netflix, try somethink like mediahint that proxies your connection
[09:51] <SuperMatt> the american netflix actually has more episodes of Doctor Who than the UK version
[09:51] <SuperMatt> AND they actually have torchwood episodes
[09:51] <popey> so does the uk one
[09:52] <SuperMatt> I didn't spot torchwood, so I retract that one
[09:52] <mungbean> i like films, but only good ones. hence i don't end up watching many that were made west of land's end
[09:52] <popey> all four seasons
[09:52] <SuperMatt> but essentially, I think they're using the same  advertising here as in the states, which means we are lead to believe there's a lot, when there really isn't
[09:53] <popey> 5 seasons of doctor who too
[09:53] <SuperMatt> there's 6 seasons on US netflix
[09:53] <mungbean> iplayer should do a paid service - why on earth don't they?
[09:53] <mungbean> where you can access all old content
[09:54] <Myrtti> Lil-|^Red: wouldn't it be easier if you'd stick to the same nickname?
[09:54] <mungbean> i heard a rumour that some bbc employees have access to such an archive
[09:54] <SuperMatt> I would prefer a single, broadcaster ambivolent service
[09:54] <jacobw> Hmm, the BBC would have difficultly operating a subscription service
[09:54] <popey> not just bbc employees
[09:54] <popey> i have a non-bbc friend who got access
[09:54] <jacobw> SuperMatt: See Porject Canvas
[09:54] <mungbean> so it's real?
[09:54] <popey> it allows you to download any programme for the main networks, not just bbc
[09:55] <popey> it captures each programme, and you can download the raw mpeg2 stream
[09:55] <mungbean> i want
[09:55] <popey> i tried to get access but they stopped signups
[09:56] <mungbean> missed last 2 minutes of a documentary t'other day, and 4od didn't have it
[09:56] <mungbean> youtube did, but i was in the wrong country (!?!UK!!!)
[09:56] <mungbean> official 4od youtube channel
[09:56] <mungbean> craziness
[09:56] <popey> that happens sometimes
[09:57] <popey> I have had it too, I moaned at a friend whose company provide some of the backend
[09:57] <popey> he said it is a problem with one of the (multiple) CDNs they use
[09:57] <popey> the GEOIP fails sometimes
[09:57] <mungbean> i'll try again from work then  :P
[09:57] <popey> heh
[09:58] <mungbean> is there a 4od downloader?
[09:58] <BigRedS> I've long maintained that if you're using geoip to do something important you've made a mistake somewhere
[09:59] <popey> no
[09:59] <popey> I do love variety - http://launchpad.net/variety
[09:59] <mungbean> google play gives you 30 days to choose a 2 day window to watch the film. not bad i suppose
[09:59] <popey> it gave me this as my desktop background today which is lovely http://www.flickr.com/photos/52821721@N00/3193043847
[10:00] <SuperMatt> I wouldn't mind a google play subscription service
[10:01] <bigcalm> Hi peeps :)
[10:05] <SuperMatt> hullo
[10:06] <BigRedS> Goood Morning!
[10:07] <BigRedS> ls
[10:08] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:08] <davmor2> BigRedS: you're not going to get a very good listing in irc honest
[10:09] <BigRedS> I've had some good ones in the past, but some have been, er, the sort of file listings I don't want made public
[10:09] <BigRedS> once it had exactly the file I was looking for, too!
[10:10] <mungbean> Desktop Downloads Videos Donkeys Dropbox
[10:11] <BigRedS> haha, yeah, that sort of thing
[10:12] <BigRedS> Anyone used webissues before? I need a really simple bugtracker with a UI that people will bother to use. Bugzilla's failed at this :(
[10:12] <mungbean> redmine
[10:13] <mungbean> lovely web ui and also handles email submissions/updates too
[10:13] <BigRedS> yeah, but it's in ruby and I really really really hate that
[10:13] <mungbean> doens't matter once its installed
[10:13] <BigRedS> for about a year 90% of my time seemed to be occupied by arguing with gem to make redmine work
[10:14] <mungbean> got mine running in no time and has been rock stable for 3 years
[10:14] <SuperMatt> yeah, took me a while to convince gem I had the right version of mysql installed blah blah blah
[10:14] <SuperMatt> ruby is remarkably picky
[10:15] <SuperMatt> or at least gems is
[10:15] <mgdm> yeah, I don't get on well with gems
[10:16] <BigRedS> mungbean: have you updated it in those three years? :)
[10:16] <mungbean> yes , although not for 1 year
[10:16] <mungbean> somebody else might have updated it this year tho
[10:17] <mungbean> i now have 3 desks in 3 different offices
[10:17] <BigRedS> well, at least that's not one desk in three different offices
[10:17] <mungbean> currently sitting at the warmest, quietest, sunniest one
[10:19] <BigRedS> I'm working from home today and, fortunately, the cat's in a huff with me
[10:19] <BigRedS> so I should get some work done
[10:28] <dwatkins> no need for PawSense, BigRedS?
[10:30] <MooDoo> chuffing parking ticket....raaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
[10:37] <BigRedS> dwatkins: she's actually completely uninterested in the keyboard
[10:37] <BigRedS> tends to wedge herself on my lap between me and the desk, and slowly expand, pushing me away from the desk and leaving me with nothing better to do than give her attention
[10:37] <BigRedS> cunning
[10:38] <mungbean> hmm. thought i had added my id_rsa key to ssh-add but still asking for password - i have multiple keys
[10:38] <SuperMatt> MooDoo: I don't have much sympathy for people that complain about parking tickets, though I am aware there can be some circumstances where they're given out in error. care to share?
[10:38] <SuperMatt> actually, that's not true
[10:38] <mungbean> SuperMatt: igot one for knocking on my friends door
[10:39] <mungbean> although waiting 3 mins is allowed
[10:39] <SuperMatt> I do have sympathy for the poor sods that try to get to their car in time, but are held up for some reason and turn up a minute late with a sticker waiting for them
[10:39] <SuperMatt> surely waiting implies that you should be in the car?
[10:39] <mungbean> no
[10:40] <mungbean> you can be ona yellow line 3 mins and be away from car
[10:40] <mungbean> i was knocking on the door
[10:40] <SuperMatt> ok, I see
[10:40] <mungbean> came back and he gave me one "i've started it now"
[10:40] <mungbean> didn't realise you could drive off
[10:40] <SuperMatt> doh
[10:40] <mungbean> without acepting
[10:41] <mungbean> i was young, and only owned my car for 30 minutes
[10:41] <SuperMatt> I've been ticketed twice in my life
[10:41] <SuperMatt> once for parking on the street outside my house because I was too scared to reverse park in the drive way (I'd passed a couple of days before)
[10:41] <SuperMatt> and once when I outstayed my welcome by a minute
[10:42] <MooDoo> I was parked at work and got it as i hadn't displayed a parking permit
[10:42] <SuperMatt> both of which were might fault
[10:42] <SuperMatt> MooDoo: you'll be able to contest that one faily easily then
[10:42] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: motorbike, no place for permits
[10:43] <SuperMatt> ah of course
[10:43] <SuperMatt> you should almost certainly be able to contest it
[10:43] <MooDoo> not parked in a bay.
[10:43] <BigRedS> Yeah, I've contested those in the past
[10:43] <BigRedS> but they sometimes ask for a copy of the permit
[10:43] <BigRedS> so you can't say "I had it and did attach it but it fell off"
[10:45] <MooDoo> sigh another£60 i could without spending
[10:46] <popey> we got a photo ticket through the post a while back, while I was out at work
[10:46] <popey> wifey phoned to apologise and ask me not to be cross and that she'd pay it and sorry sorry sorry
[10:46] <popey> I said it was fine..
[10:46] <popey> then got home and looked at the picture..
[10:46] <popey> it was me
[10:46] <mungbean> lolz
[10:46] <mungbean> makes you sound like an ogre
[10:46] <MooDoo> lol
[10:46] <popey> does doesn't it
[10:47] <mungbean> don't beat me again
[10:47] <mungbean> i'll do the dishes for a year
[10:47] <mungbean> btw i'm being a bit lame with my ssh keys
[10:47] <popey> thats the only time I've ever been photographed
[10:47] <popey> i was going the wrong way in a one way bus lane
[10:47] <popey> \o/
[10:47] <mungbean> lol
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> popey: I can disprove that you haven't been photographed on other occasions
[10:47] <Laney> what in the
[10:48] <mungbean> i've aded the key to ssh-add but still asks for password
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: pass_word_ or pass_phrase_?
[10:48] <davmor2> I've only had a couple of ticket, when I've dropped the Mother-in-law off and been in a disabled bay and forgotten to put her badge out
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: also, did you add your public key to remote:~/.ssh/authorized_keys?
[10:48] <mungbean> passphrase
[10:50] <MooDoo> what with my blender failing, the microwave failing, the hard drive in my laptop failing and now a parking ticket, i'm not having a good week lol
[10:50] <SuperMatt> :(
[10:51] <mungbean> MartijnVdS: i didn't have my pub key on the client
[10:51] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: the server, you mean?
[10:51] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: your pubkey AND privkey are in ~/.ssh/id_*{,.pub} after generating
[10:52] <mungbean> i'd generated on another machine
[10:52] <Laney> yay 1kg bag of tea
[10:52] <Laney> turns out that's quite a lot
[10:52] <mungbean> and only copied priv key to client
[10:52] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: never copy privkeys to other machines if you can help it
[10:53] <mungbean> huh?
[10:53] <mungbean> they are both my machines
[10:53] <mungbean> laptop and desktop
[10:53] <mungbean> u saying i should generate new ones for each pc?
[10:55] <popey> i would
[10:55] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: you can put lots of keys in authorized_keys on the server(s)
[10:55] <MartijnVdS> That means that if one privkey gets compromised/stolen, you can just remove that one and don't have to go around replacing keys everywhere
[10:56] <mungbean> as its a laptop i probably should, but its a pain to modify auth keys on the servers
[10:57] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: vi .ssh/authorized_keys
[11:01] <popey> ssh-copy-id
[11:11] <mungbean> i wish there was an irc for scale modellers. cannot findone anywhere. i have so many questions that forums don't really handle well
[11:12] <popey> surprised there isnt a stackexchange for it
[11:12] <popey> http://stackexchange.com/sites
[11:15] <mungbean> i'll try to start one and drum up support
[11:16] <mungbean> unfortunately the main place to drump up support are on forums...
[11:16] <mungbean> the airbrush thread on airfixtributeforum is over 60 pages
[11:16] <mungbean> impossible to glean useful info
[11:16] <mungbean> it's like trawling xdadevelopers
[11:18] <diplo> Guys thoughts on this issue before I delve deeper
[11:19] <diplo> We have around 80 customers, a lot of them run 2-3 servers
[11:19] <diplo> We want to monitor certain services with Nagios, so we use check_by_ssh
[11:19] <diplo> Issue we've experienced is that we use different ports to connect directly to different boxes
[11:20] <popey> mungbean: this is why all forums suck
[11:20] <diplo> But... know hosts stores this via IPAddress it seems and so connecting to 2 different hosts comes up with a known hosts warning
[11:20] <mungbean> yes. i like stackexchange as i can use my launchpad openid :D
[11:27] <jacobw> What's the differnce between a StackExchange and a forum?
[11:28] <MooDoo> with a forum, it's just questions and answers with stack exchange the more a question is viewed then it puts popular posts at the top
[11:29] <MooDoo> http://askubuntu.com/
[11:29] <MooDoo> this is a stack exchange site.
[11:29] <mungbean> SE is more definitive
[11:29] <mungbean> forums are rambling and comments add noise
[11:29] <mungbean> everything has equal weight in a forum (bad)
[11:33] <popey> for some reason I can't fathom, the ubuntu forums are planning to re-activate having tutorials on the forums rather then having them collaboratively off-site
[11:34] <popey> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2132649
[11:35] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[11:35] <Myrtti> forums.
[11:37] <MooDoo> and we all know how you feel about forums popey ;)
[11:37] <ali1234> the reason is quite clearly stated in the thread
[11:37] <ali1234> since the tutorials were converted to wikis, nobody uses them
[11:38] <ali1234> this doesn't really surprise me, i mean the ubuntu wiki is probably the only ubuntu site less useful than launchpad answers
[11:39] <ali1234> most pages in it seem to get moved more often than they get edited. i have no idea why
[11:40] <ali1234> it's not like there is an index or any kind of organizational hierarchy to it, so the constant moving of pages seem to only break external search engine links
[11:40] <Myrtti> I like the wikipages more than forums or answers or askubuntu combined
[11:41] <ali1234> let's suppose i am having a problem with my graphics card and i go to wiki.ubuntu.com
[11:41] <popey> you wouldnt
[11:41] <popey> you would go to google.com
[11:41] <ali1234> i know i wouldn't, because i know the wiki is useless
[11:41] <popey> exactly
[11:41] <ali1234> but lets suppose i didn't already know that
[11:42] <popey> you still wouldn't go to wiki.ubuntu.com
[11:42] <ali1234> there is nothing at all that even references help or support on the front page
[11:42] <popey> nobody does
[11:42] <popey> because thats not what its for
[11:42] <ali1234> ok, so i go to google and i put in "ubuntu graphics"
[11:42] <ali1234> the top hit is a link to the wiki... which is completely irrelevant
[11:43] <popey> do people search for that phrase?
[11:43] <MartijnVdS> ubuntu nvidia, maybe
[11:43] <ali1234> what would you suggest that i try to search for?
[11:43] <popey> ubuntu driver problem maybe
[11:43] <popey> dunno
[11:44] <popey> ubuntu video driver
[11:44] <ali1234> wiki doesn't even appear on the first page for "ubuntu nvidia"
[11:44] <popey> why should it?
[11:44] <ali1234> same
[11:44] <ali1234> because all the helpful content from the forums got moved there
[11:44] <ali1234> and now nobody can find it
[11:45] <popey> I'm not keen on it being on the wiki
[11:45] <popey> I'd rather it was on AU
[11:45] <popey> pretty sure I said so back when this was debated
[11:45] <ali1234> AU isn't a forum
[11:45] <popey> i didnt say it was
[11:45] <ali1234> neither is the wiki
[11:46] <ali1234> AU is a place to ask questions, not write tutorials
[11:46] <popey> "how do i fix my broken video driver on 12.10"
[11:46] <popey> is a question
[11:47] <davmor2> ali1234: plus au is way easier to find stuff on
[11:48] <MartijnVdS> When I google for problems I get the Arch wiki
[11:48] <MartijnVdS> usually
[11:48] <popey> the big problem I have with the forum is that tutorials whither and die, and the OP wanders off and they never get corrected
[11:48] <popey> same can happen with the wiki of course
[11:48] <MartijnVdS> before the crash, you'd get the Gentoo wiki
[11:48] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: add Ubuntu rather than linux :)
[11:48] <popey> but at least other people can edit the wiki or delete the page
[11:48] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: I can translate :)
[11:49] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: do Ubuntu fix x rather than Linux fix x and you get more specific Ubuntu info :)
[11:50] <ali1234> i agree that AU would be better for most of this stuff (except the stuff that would definitely get closed as being too specific) but i also think that even the forums would be better than the wiki
[11:50] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: yes but the problems I have tend to be too hard for most tutorials anyway :)
[11:50] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: "what was the 'ip' command for setting the default route again?"
[11:50] <MartijnVdS> try googling anything for the 'ip' command, actually
[11:51] <ali1234> "man ip" top hit
[11:51] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: Ubuntu setting a default route?
[11:52] <ali1234> http://askubuntu.com/questions/1245/add-default-route-on-boot too localized!
[11:53] <ali1234> apparently setting a route is "an extraordinarily narrow situation that is not generally applicable to the worldwide audience of the internet"
[11:54] <popey> ali1234: I agree
[11:55] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: nah, I want to avoid the 'route' and 'ifconfig' tools because they're supposed to be deprecated :)
[11:55] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: also, I don't always use Ubuntu, sometimes I use Debian or OpenWRT :)
[11:55] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: shame on you ;)
[11:55] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: openwrt = the bobm
[11:56] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: I have an OpenWRT router on the fibre connection at home :)
[11:56] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: openwrt did work fully on my router, however dd-wrt did so that is what I am using
[11:57] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: I bought mine specifically because OpenWRT works on it :)
[11:57] <MartijnVdS> ♥TP-Link
[11:57] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: I have TP-link
[11:58] <MooDoo> ow do davmor2
[11:58] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: it does rock
[11:58]  * popey hugs his WNDR3700
[11:58] <davmor2> MooDoo: ay up mucka
[12:00]  * MartijnVdS has a TP-Link WDR-4300
[12:00] <MartijnVdS> popey: that's netgear, right?
[12:01] <davmor2> MartijnVdS:  TP-Link TL-WR841ND v7  it was the cheapest router I could get :)
[12:02] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: I think open wrt works on it now but may or may not display a gui iirc
[12:04] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: ah, its gui is a bit big.. I didn't bother with it :)
[12:04] <popey> yes
[12:05] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: ah you see I could learn all the tinkering but I just needed a better version of software that was on it basically rebooting once a week was getting tedious :)
[12:06] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: I can imagine :)
[12:06] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: you could guarantee it would happen during a meeting too :)
[12:06] <MartijnVdS> heh, of course!
[12:08]  * bigcalm grumbles at Halfords - ordered DAB unit on Thursday afternoon with the suggestion that it could be fitted on Monday or Tuesday. I had to phone to find out that it hadn't been delivered to them yet. Next fitting appointment I can attend isn't until Monday next week. </grumble>
[12:09] <SuperMatt> -tt-
[12:09] <davmor2> the dd-wrt has only locked up on me once and that was after virgin's network had been down for an age and their hub had issues so I had to reboot that
[12:09] <bigcalm> open-wrt > dd-wrt :)
[12:13] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: it's opener, or it FEELS opener at least :)
[12:14] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: it allows me to share my phone's 3g connection via the router's USB port. dd-wrt can't (or couldn't) do that
[12:15]  * MartijnVdS recompiles OpenWRT manually
[12:17] <MartijnVdS> I've played with some meshing software on TP-Link 703n boxes as well
[12:17] <MartijnVdS> (tiny 5x5cm APs with an USB port, an ethernet port, and wifi)
[12:19] <bigcalm> zigbee?
[12:23] <MartijnVdS> no, 802.11s
[12:23] <josh__> hey guys, moving from a mac to an ubuntu machine. all my config that was in bash_profile
[12:23] <josh__> can that stay there
[12:23] <josh__> ?
[12:23] <josh__> it doesnt seem to be loaded by default every time I start a new shell
[12:24] <josh__> I have to . ~/.bash_profile
[12:24] <MartijnVdS> josh__: ~/.bash_profile you mean?
[12:24] <josh__> aye
[12:24] <MartijnVdS> ls -l ~/.bash_profile ?
[12:24] <MartijnVdS> what are its permissions?
[12:24] <MartijnVdS> is there a .profile? maybe that goes first (read 'man bash' about which config files go first)
[12:24] <josh__> -rw-rw-r--
[12:24] <MartijnVdS> .bash_profile is read once on login, .bashrc is read for every terminal opened
[12:25] <MartijnVdS> my .bash_profile is one line: . ~/.bashrc
[12:25] <MartijnVdS> and everything of note is in ~/.bashrc
[12:25] <josh__> my ~/.profile points to .bashrc not bash_profile
[12:25] <josh__> guess thats why...?
[12:30] <MartijnVdS> .profile is also only read on login
[12:30] <MartijnVdS> so you put all the settings in .bashrc instead
[12:31] <MartijnVdS> and stay away from the .profile ones :)
[13:31] <mungbean> meh, still not received my little cable in the post i need to ddwrt my wifi AP
[13:34] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: what kind of cable is that?
[13:34] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: USB/Serial?
[13:35] <mungbean>
[13:35] <mungbean> USB 2.0 to UART TTL 6PIN Connector Module Serial Converter
[13:35] <MartijnVdS> so.. yes :)
[13:35] <mungbean> yep
[13:35] <mungbean> :D
[13:35] <MartijnVdS> I had one of those from my Arduino hacking days
[13:36] <mungbean> have an old dlink AP that dserves dddwrting
[13:36] <mgdm> I have a D-Link DSL router that forgot how to firmware
[13:36] <mgdm> I keep meaning to fix it, not got around to it yet
[13:36] <MartijnVdS> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/RoundTuit.jpg
[13:37] <mgdm> hehe
[13:42] <Laney> if I go to the bank, can they print me a cheque from my account?
[13:42] <Laney> I have no cheque book atm
[13:42] <Darael> Not actually sure they can.  They can order a new chequebook, though.
[13:43] <Laney> yeah I already have
[13:43] <popey> yes, they can
[13:43] <popey> i have had the bank issue cheques for me before
[13:43] <mungbean> dont they charge though?
[13:43] <Myrtti> cheques... *shakes head*
[13:44] <Laney> they want one to open a new isa
[13:47] <Darael> If it's the same bank, they shouldn't even need to print a cheque.  Set it up in-branch and they should be able to just do any necessary transfer.  Of course, if the ISA is with a different bank that's another story.
[13:48] <Laney> yeah that would be too easy
[13:48] <Laney> (and an utterly shit rate)
[13:49] <Laney> anyway, ta, biking to town now
[13:49] <Laney> strangely late lunch
[13:53] <ali1234> i opened a new isa at barclays entirely through the website
[13:53] <ali1234> didn't even have to wait for approval
[13:54] <ali1234> also did the same at aldermore
[14:37] <Laney> no cheque :(
[14:38] <MooDoo> booo how come?
[14:39] <Laney> they just don't do it any more
[14:40] <Laney> never mind, coventry allowed me to open the isa with a £0 balance
[14:40] <mungbean> got 3 ubuntu stickers - suggestions on where to randomly stick them around the office?
[14:40] <mungbean> toilet seat
[14:40] <popey> on the underside of someone's mug
[14:40] <popey> so they dont see it but you do when they drink
[14:41] <popey> someone did that to me with a windows sticker
[14:41] <popey> i didnt notice for a month or so
[14:43] <mungbean> you don't wash up your mug?
[14:43] <ali1234> men do not wash the bottom of things
[14:44] <popey> [FACT]
[14:44] <ali1234> *real men
[14:44] <popey> i wash the bit the liquid goes in, and my mouth touches
[14:44] <mungbean> these are the ones with the old logo and "linux for human beings" slogan on
[14:44] <popey> generally, at work
[14:44] <mungbean> long,thin
[15:27] <kvarley> "ia32-libs-multiarch:i386 : Depends: libsane:i386 but it is not going to be installed" any ideas? apt is completely useless
[15:28] <kvarley> I just want apt to shut up and work, need to install lamp for work
[15:28] <kvarley> I can't remove ia32 libs
[15:30] <popey> what are you trying to do?
[15:30] <kvarley> Ah, it was a broken package
[15:30] <kvarley> Synaptic to the rescue
[15:31] <kvarley> Used synaptic to remove the broken package and all is well, thanks anyway popey :)
[15:38] <mungbean> what kernel does 12.04.2 come with please?
[15:39] <mungbean> a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack suggests it comes with a newer kernel than a 12.04.1 upgraded to .2
[15:41] <neuro> 15:44 <popey> i wash the bit the liquid goes in, and my mouth touches
[15:41] <neuro> why does this make me think of "it puts the lotion on its skin"
[15:41] <popey> hah
[15:41]  * neuro started a new job today
[15:42] <popey> \o/
[15:42] <MooDoo> neuro: yay
[15:42] <diplo> And he's already on IRC :D
[15:42] <neuro> and one of the things i get to do is boost a load of win and centos aws ec2 instances and replace them with ubuntu
[15:42] <neuro> diplo: working from home :D
[15:43] <imexil> Hi, it's been a long time. I was wondering if any of you have tried cloning a SVN repo using `git svn clone URL` in 13.04. Looks it's bottom up :(
[15:43] <diplo> :)
[15:43] <MooDoo> congrats neuro :)
[15:43] <neuro> cheers!
[15:43] <neuro> i'm thinking some juju should get involved as well
[15:47] <davmor2> bigcalm: you about
[15:47] <diplo> neuro: What did you do before ?
[15:48] <MooDoo> diplo: lug radio ;)
[15:48] <neuro> same thing i've always done (at least for the last 9 years), linux sysadmin
[15:48] <neuro> and a mixture of sysadmin and web-dev for the 8 yrs before that
[15:49] <MartijnVdS> they had the web before that?!
[15:49] <MooDoo> jono et all should do a 5 year anniversary episode of lug radio :D
[15:49] <diplo> I want to get back to full time sysadmin, as soon as I'm better health wise it's my top priority, not sure people would employ me atm :)
[15:50] <neuro> MartijnVdS: i was working for a webdev company in 1996 :)
[15:50] <neuro> was making web pages for 3 years before that
[15:50] <MartijnVdS> neuro: with "Work in progress" gifs?
[15:50] <MartijnVdS> neuro: and <marquee>?
[15:50] <neuro> i'm ashamed to admit, i occasionally used an "under construction" gif
[15:50] <neuro> and very very occasionally, marquee
[15:50] <mgdm> http://divshot.github.com/geo-bootstrap
[15:50] <MartijnVdS> no <blink> though, right?
[15:51] <mgdm> WARNING: sunglasses required
[15:51] <MartijnVdS> "Works best in ANY browser" buttons?
[15:51] <MartijnVdS> "Proudly created in vi"?
[15:51] <neuro> yes, and yes once or twice
[15:51] <SuperMatt> you can mimic blink quite easily
[15:52] <neuro> http://neuro.me.uk/projects/subclub.co.uk/working/ <- a site I built in 1996, danger contains frames and may be a bit broken in modern browsers (even though i've twiddled the frameset stuff); click on the morphing gif to enter
[15:53] <diplo> argh!! :)
[15:53] <diplo> :P
[15:53] <neuro> it was awesome at the time
[15:53] <neuro> no way would i build a site looking like that now though
[15:54] <diplo> I found a load of my old sites a few weeks ago, keep debating putting them up
[15:54] <diplo> Not sure how well they'll work though
[15:54] <neuro> and to be fair, the actual design was by one of the sub club guys, i basically just htmlised the thing from their (on-paper) designs
[15:54] <diplo> worksite flashing around is umm nice heheh
[15:59] <MooDoo> frames wow :)
[15:59] <neuro> diplo: that's like 20 layers in photoshop exported out as a gif :)
[15:59] <neuro> MooDoo: yeah, i know :P
[16:00] <dwatkins> so does everyone use <div> tags now instead of frames?
[16:00] <dwatkins> I should probably get with the program...
[16:00] <neuro> those were the days when i'd just started using apache, and we had to seriously think about browsers that couldn't talk HTTP/1.1 and see the vhosts :P
[16:01] <neuro> i stopped using frames when i figured out how to do SSIs
[16:01] <dwatkins> simpler times...
[16:01] <neuro> i know
[16:01] <neuro> when you could host people's websites on a 486 running slackware and get away with it ...
[16:02] <neuro> and it really was a dark art back then
[16:02] <neuro> none of this "oh i'll just sign up with godaddy/dreamhost/whoever and have a website running in 5 minutes"
[16:03] <neuro> or "oh, i'll just spin up an ec2 instance and have a server running in 60 seconds"
[16:03] <diplo> heh, right guys.. home time. Catch you all later :)
[16:10]  * dwatkins spits at the mention of godaddy
[16:11] <MooDoo> not a fan ?
[16:12] <SuperMatt> who is?
[16:12] <Myrtti> +1
[16:12] <MooDoo> i've used them in the past, never had problems with them.....
[16:12] <SuperMatt> their advertising is so overtly sexist it is obscene
[16:12] <Azelphur> MooDoo: besides the whole teaming up to make laws that would destroy the internet
[16:12] <Azelphur> and that ^ :P
[16:13] <Myrtti> I'd rather chew my arm off than give them business, they might thing their advertising in USA is something that I'd approve
[16:13] <SuperMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Daddy#Controversies < this isn't a short list at all
[16:13] <MooDoo> oh fair enough lol
[16:14] <dwatkins> yeah, the fact the guy has an elephant's foot as an umbrella stand is enough to make me never want to use their services, let alone how utterly hideous the website is.
[16:17] <MooDoo> noted
[16:17] <dwatkins> I should probably find out about using sc2
[16:17] <dwatkins> ec2 even
[16:18] <dwatkins> is there a free offering you can just use for testing, neuro?
[16:18] <ali1234> there is
[16:18] <neuro> yeah, new customers can use the "t1.micro" sized instance to mess around with
[16:18] <neuro> it's free for a year iirc
[16:18] <ali1234> but it is horrifically limited
[16:18]  * MartijnVdS is trying Bytemark's new "big v" stuff
[16:18] <neuro> http://aws.amazon.com/free/
[16:19] <SuperMatt> I'm using a small instance these days
[16:19] <ali1234> also you have to give them your credit card and they will auto bill you after the year
[16:19] <SuperMatt> it's good for running my own email server, running my own owncloud server, running my ttrss server, etc
[16:19] <SuperMatt> a single mircoinstance isn't quite up to snuff for all that
[16:21] <SuperMatt> http://uk.godaddy.com/ <- if you flick through the banner at the top, there isn't a single guy on there
[16:21] <SuperMatt> ignore what's below the fold, we all know that's not important
[16:21] <MooDoo> isnt that just marketing though?
[16:22] <SuperMatt> yes, but I would expect some kind of representation for a company which is supposed to be for everyone
[16:22] <MooDoo> you're more likely to sign up for something if there is a picture of a lady or if the email address is sue@ or becky@
[16:22] <SuperMatt> their advertising as always been extremely sexist
[16:22] <MartijnVdS> oops @ MusicBrainz
[16:22] <MartijnVdS> Caught exception in MusicBrainz::Server::Controller::ReleaseEditor::Add->add "DBD::Pg::st execute failed: ERROR:  could not access file "/usr/local/postgres-9.0.3/lib/pending.so": No such file or directory at lib/Sql.pm line 414,  line 15.
[16:22] <MooDoo> I can't see how thats sexist really or I might be missing something
[16:22] <dwatkins> thanks neuro
[16:23] <neuro> np
[16:23] <ali1234> it's true though, they are famous for their sexist advertising
[16:23] <SuperMatt> I'm not saying that specifically is sexist, but other adverts of their own have been. put in to context, and those pictures can be pretty damning
[16:23] <popey> http://isouyashipping.com/
[16:24] <ali1234> http://isnamecoinworking.bit/
[16:24] <ali1234> oops
[16:24] <ali1234> http://isnamecoinworkingornot.bit/
[16:24] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: apparently not
[16:25] <SuperMatt> what's a namecoin?
[16:25]  * ali1234 registers the shorter version too
[16:29] <ali1234> a distributed DNS system
[16:30] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: I know, but if it doesn't hook into normal DNS at some point it's a bit pointless, isn't it?
[16:30] <ali1234> it does
[16:31] <MartijnVdS> doesn't resolve for me..
[16:31] <ali1234> then you're using the wrong nameserver
[16:31] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: I'm using my isp's resolver
[16:31] <ali1234> lol
[16:31] <ali1234> who does that in 2013?
[16:32] <MartijnVdS> everyone?
[16:32] <ali1234> my ISP's DNS server forces half my connections through their censorship proxy
[16:32] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Not allowed in .nl :)
[16:32] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: also, I _work_ for my ISP, this makes me trust the admins more ;)
[16:33] <MartijnVdS> I think they're trying to get it to do DNSSEC validation without breaking it too much for domains with broken sigs or something
[17:01] <Darael> MartijnVdS: That's easy.  Complain loudly at domains with broken sigs until they fix it :-þ
[18:34] <sebsebseb> hi
[18:44] <MartijnVdS> Darael: that's their general strategy, yes
[20:50] <mungbean> whats the best way to run 3.5 kernel in precise?
[20:50] <mungbean> most supported
[21:06] <mungbean>  06MAR and 04APR (13 minutes, 80 texts, 121 MB UK mobile internet) we'd recommend that the best plan for April could be the £5 Hokey Cokey.
[21:06] <mungbean> lol. not the biggest phone user
[23:07]  * AlanBell just made a mysql query that used to take 5614 seconds a bit quicker. Now completes in 12 seconds.
[23:08]  * Darael raises an eyebrow


[13:01] <NOUR> what is the best MS office alternative in an open source OS ?
[13:07] <thelinuxer> NOUR: Currently the most popular is LibreOffice
[13:07] <thelinuxer> already bundled with Ubuntu
[13:24] <NOUR> is it better than open office?
[13:24] <NOUR> and why?
[13:26] <thelinuxer> NOUR: it's almost the same
[13:26] <thelinuxer> NOUR: it's just a fork
[13:28] <NOUR> aha, how about video editing tool?
[13:29] <NOUR> simple one to cut videos ..etc
[13:29] <NOUR> I am trying to make my company shift from windows to ubuntu so I need relaible tools to use at work
[13:30] <thelinuxer> NOUR: there are a number of programs, I think OpenShot is the one bundled with Ubuntu
[13:31] <thelinuxer> NOUR: there is also kdenlive
[13:31] <thelinuxer> NOUR: unfortunately there are no tools that can be compared with proprietary software like sony vegas
[13:33] <NOUR> aha, what are the best sources for tutorial for ubuntu? for beginners?
[13:34] <thelinuxer> NOUR: http://ubuntu-manual.org/ and the more simple one (in Arabic) http://simplyubuntu.com/
[14:01] <NOUR> perfect, do u know any companies that provides training on ubuntu for employees (basic one we are marketing company)
[14:22] <thelinuxer> NOUR: unfortunately I don't


[12:50] <skay> juju attach thinks my 0 byte file is a negative byte file. https://paste.ubuntu.com/25752774/
[14:27] <stub> skay: You have a bright future in compression technologies
[14:27] <skay> HAHA
[14:36] <skay> don't know if I should open a bug for that or not
[14:36] <skay> I expect so, but I don't have time to debug it right now
[14:37] <stub> skay: Its actually kind of important to be able to attach 0 byte files, since we need them to fake optional resources
[14:37] <skay> I know, definitely I know
[14:37] <skay> has anyone decided that a detach command is worthwhile?
[14:42] <skay> I went ahead and filed it. lp:1723970


[11:23] <tvo> Riddell: you there?
[11:48] <tvo> bbl
[12:40] <hunger> Hi there!
[12:40] <hunger> Riddell: How was the conference you have been to?
[12:41] <hunger> Riddell: aKademy or what was it?
[12:54] <sebas> It's started this morning
[12:54] <sebas> conference2005.kde.org
[12:57] <hunger> sebas: Oh, cool... I thought he was back since he was Riddell-away for the last couple of times I saw him on IRC:-)
[01:55] <Riddell> hunger: I was at a non-computer conference which was very nice and now I'm at a computer conference which is also very nice
[01:55] <Riddell> Mark Shuttleworth is about to give a talk
[01:55] <Riddell> alas, no internet in the lecture theatres damnit
[01:55] <Riddell> or streaming
[01:59] <hunger> Riddell: So enjoy yourself!
[03:12] <tvo> meh my compu is slow running 2 kde's and listening to akademy stream at the same time :(
[03:14] <tvo> Riddell: http://home.casema.nl/vollebregt/soc/searchbar.diff
[04:14] <tvo> Riddell: did you receive & read status reports, about rlocate / about:konqi ?
[04:15] <Riddell> tvo: received, reading up on them is on my todo list for this evening
[04:15] <Riddell> as is your searchbar diff now :)
[04:15] <Riddell> please poke me if I don't get back to you
[04:15] <tvo> hehe ok
[04:16] <tvo> Riddell: btw, i'm curious whether I did enough for soc, can you give an indication ? :p
[04:21] <Riddell> tvo: is your time up already?
[04:21] <Riddell> do I need to report back to google?
[04:22] <tvo> no, 4 days, excluding this one
[04:22] <tvo> till september 1st
[04:22] <Riddell> I need to catch up on your status reports properly before giving an answer, going to be another late night
[04:25] <tvo> ok :-)


[12:01] <BradB> i would have thought it becomes hard to pick an alias pretty quickly though
[12:01] <BradB> "zope-interfaces"...
[12:01] <kiko> it depends on the size of your project or on the amount of subproducts you have in it
[12:03] <BradB> i've never used an alias for a bugzilla bug; it seems like overkill. in any case, it's probably safe to remove it from the bugs-index.pt for now.
[12:04] <kiko> I have, though. agreed it's not needed in the listing
[12:05] <BradB> kiko: how do you think Bugzilla compares to RT? Just curious.
[12:05] <kiko> they solve different problem sets
[12:05] <kiko> RT is obviously more visually agreeable
[12:06] <kiko> Bugzilla is a hard-core bug/trasktracker that scales
[12:06] <BradB> is RT more an issue tracker?
[12:06] <kiko> Bugzilla's killer feature for me is review support
[12:06] <kiko> flags and attachment editing, IOW
[12:06] <kiko> yes, RT's more issue-tracker.
[12:06] <BradB> ah
[12:06] <kiko> and bugzilla scales and provides query options that matter
[12:07] <BradB> i'd like bugzilla to make me not have to think when I want to Cc, when i rarely have any idea what email address they've registered with in the BT
[12:07] <BradB> "they", i.e. the people i want to Cc on the bug
[12:07] <kiko> hum, but how do you CC: an arbitrary person? you do know we have user matching on substrings, right?
[12:08] <BradB> kiko: i dunno, how do you Cc an arbitrary person? :) i would have expected that to Just Work too, but then it gave me an error saying that it couldn't find that address when i tried to Cc someone who, apparently, wasn't reg'd with that addy.
[12:08] <kiko> you can specify portions of the person's address
[12:09] <BradB> as for user matching substrings, i still didn't know which substring to pick (and not accidentally hit someone else)
[12:09] <kiko> it's okay, you get a picker to choose from if there are collisions
[12:09] <BradB> oh, didn't know that
[12:09] <kiko> and a confirmation page if you didn't match uniquely (if that's configured)
[12:09] <kiko> err
[12:09] <kiko> if you *did* match uniquely
[12:09] <kiko> it could be trivially extended to also match on user *name*s but it doesn't today
[12:09] <kiko> maybe on purpose
[12:10] <BradB> perhaps, perhaps
[12:10] <kiko> I think we do the best we can do *given* a large user base
[12:10] <kiko> for a reduced user base glob implemented a userpicker
[12:10] <ddaa> What is "Package" in ProjectProductSetup? The name of the corresponding Ubuntu package?
[12:10] <kiko> you can use it as well
[12:10] <lifeless> debian source package name
[12:10] <kiko> user pickers would make loads of sense for canonical bugzilla
[12:10] <kiko> but not so for ubuntu
[12:10] <kiko> BradB, make sense?
[12:10] <BradB> kiko: i want a combo box
[12:10] <lifeless> just email me & cc Mark the mapping
[12:11] <kiko> BradB, there is no such thing in HTML :)
[12:11] <ddaa> lifeless: [package]  ack
[12:11] <BradB> kiko: nah, i'm too lazy to care about if it's hard to do, i just want a cross-browser compatible combo box.
[12:11] <ddaa> lifeless: [email]  I am not putting on the wiki???

[12:11] <kiko> BradB, like we have for the package selector in b.ubuntu.c?
[12:12] <lifeless> ddaa: no.
[12:12] <ddaa> Ok
[12:12] <lifeless> the wiki page was a flop, but it shows you want info is needed.
[12:12] <BradB> kiko: i haven't seen that, but you have something that acts like a windows GUI combo box where i start typing and it shrinks the list?
[12:12] <kiko> BradB, try this:
[12:13] <kiko> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1235
[12:13] <kiko> it's justdave's baby
[12:13] <kiko> type into the Package box (yes it could use some visual styling)
[12:13] <kiko> BradB, however, it causes problems with page history and spiv and I well know.
[12:14] <BradB> kiko: woooooooooooo!
[12:14] <BradB> that's wild
[12:14] <BradB> yes, definitely something like that is what i meant.
[12:14] <kiko> heh
[12:14] <kiko> it's probably not difficult
[12:14] <BradB> that's nice work
[12:14] <kiko> I'd do it for a couple of DVDs :)
[12:14] <BradB> DVD bounties? :P
[12:15] <kiko> it's working for spiv, it could work for others :)
[12:15] <BradB> hehe
[12:21] <BradB> kiko: Ideally 1. Mark would pay for it, 2. it'd be a thing that can be reusable everywhere, because we have tons of use cases for it in launchpad (I'd add an actual dropdown though too, rather than waiting for me to type)
[12:22] <BradB> Malone already needs it for package and product selection
[12:22] <kiko> didn't limi design one of these for us?
[12:22] <kiko> I believe he did..
[12:22] <BradB> hm, i don't think his looked anything like that
[12:22] <BradB> i found it pretty weird to be honest (a submit button for each result? eek)
[12:23] <kiko> agreed on all counts! I just didn't have the nerve to tell. I wanted it to be *SIMPLE*.
[12:23] <BradB> hehe, yep
[12:25] <kiko> ideally we'd bug the W3C to include one in the next spec
[12:25] <kiko> mark should buy the w3c
[12:26] <BradB> that'd be wild
[12:27] <kiko> let me ask hixie
[12:27] <ddaa> kiko: that's no the way of Mark
[12:27] <BradB> kiko: hixie?
[12:28] <BradB> I'm going to email the list right now and ask Mark to buy us a combo box.
[12:28] <ddaa> Instead, you should suggest him that having half the w3c staff on board could be useful to improve our standard-compliance ;-)
[12:28] <kiko> lol
[12:29] <kiko> yes, ask mark to buy us a spec and patches to IE and Moz.
 Hixie_, how's it going? had a question for you
 has the w3c ever evaluated something like a combobox for HTML Forms?
[12:29] <BradB> I'm literally emailing the list though, not to change the w3c spec, but... :)
[12:29] <kiko> (Hixie sits in on the XForms board)
[12:29] <BradB> This is a major UI problem now that we're dogfooding.
[12:29] <kiko> http://whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#the-datalist
[12:29] <kiko> sorry
 kiko: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#the-datalist
[12:29] <kiko> from the man himself
[12:31] <kiko> BradB, that's what you wanted right?
[12:32] <justdave> the page history issue should only affect that selector field itself now.
[12:32] <justdave> the main page history problem was fixed by reordering the element order on the page so that the dynamic listbox was the last item in the page (in the DOM) rather than being in the middle of it.
[12:33] <justdave> the trashed history only trashed the fields that occurred after it in the DOM.
[12:33] <kiko> ah.
[12:33] <BradB> kiko: from a .5 second skim, yeah, that looks like it.
[12:33] <BradB> in any case, we need something nowish.
[12:35] <kiko> yeah. and justdave's the man!
[12:36] <BradB> I'm using justdave's example in my lp@ mail
[12:36] <BradB> with the addition that it needs to let me make a selection without typing (i.e. like a true combo box)
[12:37] <justdave> it was theoretically possible to do that, the three-characters-required was to make the page load faster.
[12:37] <justdave> the index required to make it substring match on a single character made the index file a few hundred MB.
[12:38] <justdave> er, few MB actually.  It's a few hundred KB now, with a three-character index.
[12:38] <justdave> anyhow, you don't want to shove multiple MB at someone's dialup connection just so they can file a bug.
[12:39] <lifeless> yes we do :)
[12:39] <justdave> there's 3000 (or more now?) items in that listbox though.  If you only have 20 or 30 things in it, the index would be really short :)
[12:40] <justdave> My thinking on making that scale better for dialup users was the switch it to a server-side search instead of client-side... have a button to pop up a new window that they can do the search in, and feed it back to the textbox when they select one.
[12:41] <justdave> that would also give them the option of browsing the entire list IF they wanted to download the whole list.
[12:49] <BradB> justdave: i would have thought xml-rpc + dom mutation was the way to solve that
[12:52] <justdave> BradB: yes, that's what you would do in the popup window
[12:52] <justdave> when you type a couple letters, you expect results to start showing up, the way it currently works.
[12:53] <justdave> you have a minimum 2 to 3 second delay every time you hit the server to look for something, just with browser and server overhead
[12:53] <BradB> yeah
[12:53] <justdave> and longer if they're on dialup.  the delay to grab new info is confusing to the user if they didn't purposely initiate the server hit.
[12:54] <BradB> justdave: my concern is that i'm too lazy to click my mouse button to many times
[12:54] <BradB> s,to many,too many,
[12:54] <BradB> it might be worth making dialup users suffer, depending on just how much suffering it would be
[12:56] <BradB> ("suffer" by just bringing everything across the first time the page is fetched.)
[12:57] <lifeless> could you ...
[12:57] <lifeless> bring down an index of the first item from the first two letters initially.
[12:58] <lifeless> i.e. aardvark, abroken, acat
[12:58] <lifeless> etc
[12:58] <lifeless> then when they hit a, replace that with the a** index ?
[12:58] <justdave> if we do left-side match, the data necessary to download to the client is not all that bad.
[12:58] <justdave> as in, typing in the text field only matching things that start with what you've typed so far
[12:59] <justdave> the humungous amounts of data required to download only happens when we do a substring match
[12:59] <lifeless> ohh. yeah
[01:00] <justdave> javascript doesn't have a "grep" command or equivalent.
[01:00] <justdave> (not natively implemented anyway)
[01:00] <justdave> so you have to manually step through an array looking for matches... (which will take forever and a day because javascript is slow)...
[01:01] <justdave> or you create a property list with all of the possible substring combinations as keys, and an array of the matches as the value to each key.
[01:01] <justdave> which is what our hack on Bugzilla is doing right now.
[01:02] <justdave> (the arrays are tokenized and there's no whitespace in the .js file to try to minimize data transfer)
[01:32] <stub> Does anyone know if Limi has made any progress on an asynchronous selection widget?
[01:32] <kiko> stub, well, BradB and I don't really like the design we saw, but shhhh
[01:34] <stub> design can be worked on - that was only a mockup. The main trick is the javascript for the textbox and the async. queries to do matching.
[01:35] <stub> oic - you were talking about the delay incurred between hitting a letter and the results comming back... hmm...
[01:36] <stub> so it has to have that ugly search button...
[01:36] <BradB> stub!
[01:36] <stub> Greeting
[01:36] <stub> s
[01:37] <BradB> stub: can you put a new dogfood version up? also, we really need email notification to be working properly (spiv filed the bug in bugzilla)
[01:38] <BradB> we also need to get rid of the test bugs
[01:38] <stub> Fresh dogfood went up yesterday.
[01:39] <stub> As for test bugs - I think that dogfooding has found a feature we need. We need a way of deleting bugs.
[01:40] <BradB> stub: i seem to remember asking mark about that in london, but i thought he didn't want that.
[01:40] <kiko> dodgefooding.
[01:40] <stub> lunchpod dogfood
[01:40] <BradB> kiko: does bugzilla let you simply delete bugs?
[01:41] <kiko> not really.
[01:41] <BradB> i'm not sure we want that
[01:41] <stub> Sourceforge lets you set the status of a bug to 'Deleted'. It is still there, but you generally won't search for them.
[01:41] <kiko> it does, but it doesn't work 100% and it's not really something we encourage.
[01:41] <BradB> stub: ah
[01:41] <kiko> that's the right solution IMO.
[01:41] <kiko> for any history-based bit of software
[01:41] <stub> Every single project that starts using the system will create at least one test bug, because everyone wants to confirm it actually works before telling their users to use it.
[01:42] <BradB> any kind of "delete" (even just a status) would seem so easy to be used wrong
[01:42] <BradB> "oh, it's fixed, i can delete this bug now!" and other horror stories.
[01:43] <BradB> i'm all about interfaces that are hard to use incorrectly
[01:43] <kiko> well
[01:43] <stub> I would like to develop a tool rather than a bureaucracy. I think a way of hiding test bugs and such would be useful.
[01:43] <BradB> "Closed" might be enough for these extremely rare cases.
[01:43] <kiko> bugzilla *does* let you do it. :)
[01:44] <stub> I really don't want a googlebomber to start submitting malone bugs to increase page rankings of some porn site ;)
[01:44] <BradB> ah yeah, hm
[01:44] <stub> (oh... no hyperlinks so that isn't a problem)
[01:45] <BradB> i think plone's solved that with "reject"
[01:45] <stub> (unless we parse the text and turn URLs into hyperlinks ala roundup, in which case it is a problem)
[01:48] <stub> My grand plan for allowing people to merge code into the dogfood branch to allow trivial rollout has failed btw, mainly due to our central archive being managed by a lobotomized monkey (PQM... not lifeless...). I'll need to talk to lifeless to see if I can redesign the process. At the moment it is all working the way I hoped except it is stuck in my personal archive so nobody else can play.
[01:49] <BradB> arch-submit-merge "my evil changes" $dogfood?
[01:50] <stub> Yes - but without the arch loops that would cause (that was my initial attempt, which jblack explained wouldn't work).
[01:50] <BradB> the most critical thing for the DF right now is email perms, because it prevents anything from being done in malone
[01:51] <stub> So that just involves changing the queue directory right? I remember that one now...
[01:51] <BradB> yehh
[01:54] <stub> ok - just fixed that. I'll do another push to get yesterdays code up.
[01:58] <BradB> thanks
[02:06] <kiko> BradB|afk, please give salgado some attention tomorrow, can you?
[02:07] <kiko> he's wanting to show you a fixed up sample data set that mark has commissioned, but it needs testing by a malone-expert; daf, if you could do so for rosetta as well, we'd appreciate it
[02:08] <daf> hmm?
[02:09] <daf> kiko: what needs doing?
[02:10] <kiko> daf, basically, just test the new sampledata package he's produced and help him into deciding what to do with the original files we have (which are rather broken AFAWCT)
[02:11] <BradB|afk> kiko: what does he want to know, if it'll break malone?
[02:12] <BradB|afk> i hope so, because I've already got python code figuring that out for me
[02:12] <kiko> that's right.
[02:12] <kiko> and then he wants someone to replace the current files by what we have :)
[02:13] <BradB|afk> i don't think it's feasible for it to be significant. tests depend on the test data.
[02:14] <BradB|afk> but other than that, if make check passes, he's good to go as far as malone's concerned.
[02:15] <kiko> okidok
[02:15] <kiko> time for me to run, thanks guys
[02:15] <kiko> adieu
[03:49] <justdave> the common (and supported) way of removing test bugs on Bugzilla is to create a "Test Product" which is set up as restricted so that only the admin can see it.
[03:49] <justdave> then just move all of the test bugs into that product.
[04:46] <stub> Mmm... we don't want to have to do the gardening ourselves though, since there will be way too may projects for us to look after.
[10:56] <Kinnison> Morning
[11:52] <bob2> lifeless: and I'm not sure why it's whining that there are no cmmits
[11:52] <bob2> when there areally are
[11:53] <lifeless> buildbot doesn't look at commits, ignore that.
[11:53] <lifeless> ^our
[11:53] <bob2> so what is it syncing?
[12:38] <lifeless> commits.
[12:39] <lifeless> the UI thing that says 'no commits' isd what you should ignore
[01:01] <Kinnison> y'know; one thing that I dislike about test-driven-development is that seeing a 100% pass rate no longer fills me with joy
[02:56] <Kinnison> time for me to head off
[03:40] <BradB> daf: ping
[03:40] <BradB> salgado: ping
[03:41] <salgado> BradB: pong
[03:41] <BradB> salgado: did kiko-afk pass on the message to you about how to know if your sample data will break malone?
[03:42] <salgado> BradB: no
[03:42] <BradB> "make check" :)
[03:43] <BradB> salgado: if it breaks any tests, the sample data should be adjusted to not break any tests, unless there's an exceedingly good reason for it to warrant me spending the time to go through and fix all the tests (i.e. the malone forcefield)
[03:43] <BradB> salgado: if "make check" passes, you might not have broken soyuz and rosetta, but you almost certainly didn't break malone.
[03:45] <salgado> BradB: ok, thanks.
[04:39] <BradB> spiv: ping
[04:40] <spiv> pong.
[04:41] <BradB> spiv: we probably want the submitter of a bug to be automatically subscribed to notifications eh?
[04:41] <spiv> Uh, yeah :)
[04:41] <spiv> I assumed that was already the cae :)
[04:41] <BradB> i'll report that and fix it today
[04:41] <spiv> So I guess that's a "yes" :)
[04:41] <BradB> nope...you didn't get notifications when you reported your bugs, right?
[04:42] <spiv> I did, actually.
[04:43] <BradB> which bug #?
[04:43] <spiv> Hmm, the notification emails don't include:
[04:43] <spiv>  - a bug number
[04:43] <spiv>  - or a url
[04:43] <spiv> :)
[04:43] <spiv> 12 and 13, which I added today.
[04:43] <BradB> Ah yeah...I hacked the actual content of the messages in pretty au hazard. Now that it all works though, I can fine-tune what it tells you about the bug, or what's changed WRT to the bug.
[04:44] <spiv> Should I file bugs about that, or will you take care of it? :)
[04:45] <BradB> i'm doing it...just looking at how you're getting notifications right now
[04:45] <BradB> oh, it's because i special-cased adds
[04:45] <spiv> Heh.
[04:46] <BradB> i'm also still not clear on how to "resolve" a bug, hmph.
[04:46] <BradB> Bug title has to be widened on the add form too.
[04:46] <BradB> woo!
[04:48] <BradB> debonzi: ping
[04:49] <BradB> er, hm...i'm just wondering if it's worth creating products for m, s, r, and l, instead of filing bugs against "source packages" m, s, r and l.
[04:49] <BradB> calling the lp apps source packages is dirty
[04:54] <debonzi> BradB, pong
[04:55] <daf> BradB: pong
[05:00] <BradB> debonzi: n/m for the moment...i was going to ask you to create products for m, r, s and l (instead of what SteveA had said previously that they'd be treated as "unreleased packages"), but maybe we can wait on that for the moment.
[05:00] <BradB> daf: is dilys getting malone email?
[05:01] <daf> I got one today
[05:01] <BradB> you should have several more now
[05:01] <daf> From<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:01] <BradB> yeah
[05:01] <debonzi> BradB, ok
[05:01] <daf> Subject: Comment on "What is an "Owner" of a bug?"
[05:01] <BradB> oh crap, yeah the bug adding notification really sucks
[05:02] <daf> I only see that one
[05:02] <BradB> it special cases the owner, and *only* notifies the owner, in fact.
[05:02] <daf> ah, I see
[05:05] <BradB> elmo: do we have any domains with the word "launchpad" in them?
[05:05] <elmo> BradB: launchpad.ubuntu.com
[05:05] <BradB> i thought we had thelaunchpad.org, but unless i'm reading dig output incorrectly, i guess we don't
[05:05] <BradB> elmo: o
[05:05] <BradB> er, ok i mean
[05:06] <elmo> BradB: we might have a tld with launchpad in it, but I don't know what it is, Mark would tho
[05:23] <carlos> daf: my jabber client does not work at the moment
[05:23] <carlos> BradB: any chance to get imported our current bugzilla bugs into malone?
[05:25] <BradB> carlos: it could be done. sabdfl would have to decide if it's worth the money.
[05:26] <BradB> (i.e. nothing exists currently to do it; we'd have to write an importer)
[05:27] <carlos> so we are going to throw to the trash current bugs at bugzilla.ubuntu.com when we move to malone :-?
[05:27] <BradB> carlos: what you're suggesting is that it's probably worth the money. mark'll have to confirm that.
[05:28] <daf> carlos: ah
[05:28] <daf> carlos: Did we agree on update makeTranslationSighting so it accepts a list of translations instead of doing several calls with the pluralform number?
[05:28] <daf> carlos: it's not in your mail
[05:28] <daf> dgh: I think making it take a list would make it more difficult to update only one translation
[05:29] <daf> (paste from Jabber)
[05:29] <carlos> yes, I saw that, it's the last thing you saw?
[05:29] <carlos> :-(
[05:29] <carlos> "bad, bad server, no donut for you"
[05:29] <carlos> :-P
[05:30] <daf> yes, that's the end
[05:33] <carlos> 17:16  <carlos>   hmm, I'm having problems to figure
[05:33] <carlos> 17:16 <carlos> how to mark a messageset as fuzzy when importing a pofile
[05:33] <carlos> 17:16 <carlos> inside that method the way it's done now
[05:33] <carlos> 17:17 <carlos> the only option will be to do it explicity
[05:33] <carlos> 17:17 <carlos> instead of implicit in that method
[05:33] <carlos> that's what I wrote
[05:33] <daf> hmm
[05:34] <carlos> It's not a bad thing
[05:34] <carlos> with the new model we are doing now
[05:34] <daf> true
[05:34] <carlos> ok, so I will do it that way
[05:35] <daf> well, the flag should either be set when the message set is created, or have a default and be updated later
[05:35] <carlos> daf: :-?
[05:35] <carlos> are you talking about import time?
[05:35] <carlos> and fuzzy or in general?
[05:36] <daf> I'm not sure, what do you think?
[05:36] <daf> :)
[05:37] <carlos> you are not sure about what are you talking about?
[05:37] <carlos> X-)
[05:37] <daf> lots of people do it, they just don't usually admit it :)
[05:38] <carlos> ok
[05:38] <carlos> on import time, when we create a msgset, we could know already if that msgset should be marked as fuzzy or not
[05:39] <carlos> so we could set it when it's created
[05:39] <daf> how do we create a message set at import time?
[05:40] <carlos>  pomsgset = self.pofile.createMessageSetFromMessageSet(potmsgset)
[05:41] <carlos> there are some defaults there, it's easy to fix them
[05:41] <daf> ok, cool
[05:42] <daf> well, a new messageset should have iscomplete = FALSE and fuzzy = TRUE to begin with, right?
[05:42] <daf> actually, perhaps fuzzy should be FALSE
[05:42] <daf> we won't export it if it's not complete
[05:42] <daf> I don't think the translator should have to explicitly mark things as not fuzzy
[05:42] <carlos> then, from Rosetta UI, we also know if the msgset is fuzzy or not so we could do the same approach
[05:42] <carlos> hmmm
[05:43] <carlos> I don't follow you
[05:43] <spiv> BradB: Hmm, the forgotten password page is broken on the dogfood server...
[05:43] <spiv> BradB: I wonder if that's the same issue as the live plone system?
[05:43] <daf> ok, let's say we have a translator translating GNU Hello into Spanish
[05:43] <daf> and it hasn't been translated into Spanish before
[05:44] <daf> he goes to the translation page
[05:44] <daf> types in a few translations, and hits Submit
[05:44] <carlos> ok
[05:44] <daf> then, a new PO file is created
[05:44] <daf> and createMessageSetFromMessageSet is called for each of the message sets he submitted translations for
[05:45] <daf> if those new message sets are fuzzy by default, he's going to have to explicitly set each translation he makes non-fuzzy for them to be used
[05:45] <daf> do you see my point?
[05:46] <BradB> spiv: maybe try the live server and see if it works
[05:46] <carlos> well, I don't think they should be set fuzzy by default
[05:46] <daf> ok, neither do I :)
[05:46] <carlos> I think I'm not talking clear here :-)
[05:46] <BradB> spiv: of course, resetting it on the live server won't mean you can get into dogfood, but still, just to see...
[05:46] <daf> carlos: maybe :)
[05:46] <spiv> BradB: What do you mean by the live server?
[05:47] <BradB> ubuntulinux.org
[05:47] <carlos> the method does not accepts if a new msgset is or not fuzzy, I was talking about adding that option
[05:47] <BradB>  /forgottenpassword, i think
[05:47] <spiv> BradB: We know that  one's broken, remember the issue form yesterday?
[05:47] <daf> BradB: Malone emails don't seem to contain bug numbers
[05:47] <spiv> s/form/from
[05:47] <carlos> we know if it should be fuzzy or not when we create it
[05:47] <BradB> spiv: we know it is with the email address he reported, yeah. i didn't test with any other.
[05:47] <daf> carlos: how do we know?
[05:47] <spiv> BradB: I tested it with my own :)
[05:48] <BradB> spiv: then it's unsurprising that it wouldn't work on dogfood.
[05:48] <BradB> daf: that's reported as a bug.
[05:48] <spiv> Ok, so the dogfood breakage isn't a known issue, but probably the same as the live breakage.
[05:49] <carlos> daf: because we have already parsed that msgset (when importing from a pofile) and from rosetta we also know if we have all needed translations
[05:49] <BradB> spiv: that's my hunch
[05:49] <spiv> So if we fix the dogfood breakage, then all we need to do is find this mysterious live launchpad and roll out the fix there :)
[05:49] <daf> BradB: groovy -- so if, I have a bug number, it's trivial to construct a link to that bug, right?
[05:49] <BradB> spiv: not live launchpad, ubuntulinux.org
[05:50] <BradB> daf: yeah
[05:50] <spiv> BradB: Well, yeah, but where is it's forgotten password page coming from?
[05:50] <spiv> BradB: It's not plone, from what you say.
[05:50] <daf> carlos: the user interface code shouldn't have to decide whether a message is complete or not
[05:50] <BradB> spiv: er, yeah, no idea there
[05:50] <daf> carlos: I think the DB code should do that work
[05:50] <spiv> BradB: Hence "mysterious live launchpad" :)
[05:51] <BradB> yes, i know what you mean now :P
[05:51] <carlos> daf: ok, then, how?
[05:51] <spiv> Ok, ta.
[05:51] <spiv> debonzi: ping?
[05:51] <debonzi> spiv, pong
[05:51] <BradB> spiv: you can reset it in the db manually though
[05:51] <BradB> spiv: can you sudo to launchpad on mawson?
[05:51] <carlos> daf: If we call several times to the makeTranslationSighting it's too difficult to track all translations
[05:52] <spiv> debonzi: do you know why the forgotten password page on dogfood is broken?
[05:52] <BradB> spiv: er, wait, you didn't forget your password anyway though, right?
[05:52] <daf> carlos: if (len(self.translationSightings()) == self.pluralForms): self.iscomplete = True
[05:52] <daf> carlos: ?
[05:52] <BradB> because you've been submitting bugs...
[05:52] <spiv> BradB: I've forgotten<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:52] <spiv> BradB: But I remember<EMAIL_ADDRESS>:)
[05:52] <BradB> hehe
[05:52] <debonzi> spiv, no idea.. Im not working on it since the sprint
[05:53] <spiv> BradB: You win points for observation, though :)
[05:53] <BradB> heh
[05:53] <debonzi> spiv, but I can check if you want
[05:54] <spiv> debonzi: that'd be good, I'm getting ForbiddenAttribute: ('getPersonFromDatabase', <canonical.auth.AuthApplication object at 0x46504f8c>)
[05:54] <BradB> spiv: there's already a bugzilla bug where i clarified that
[05:54] <carlos> daf: ok, I get the idea
[05:54] <BradB> spiv: (that steve's the one to bug, and that i spoke to debonzi about it)
[05:54] <BradB> i guess you're not Cc'd on it, perhaps
[05:54] <spiv> BradB: Yeah, I saw.
[05:54] <daf> carlos: it makes sense?
[05:54] <carlos> daf: but what about the fuzzy flag?
[05:55] <daf> carlos: yeah, the fuzzy flag must be explicit, I think
[05:55] <carlos> daf: if I have four plural forms and I put there only three
[05:55] <carlos> we agree that the translator will set/unset it explicit
[05:55] <spiv> BradB: But if we fix it for dogfood, hopefully it'll be trivial for Steve to fix the live one when he returns :)
[05:55] <daf> I mean explicit in the call to the makeMessageSet...
[05:55] <carlos> but if they don't give us enough pluralforms
[05:55] <carlos> ok
[05:56] <carlos> so that will be set from the UI code
[05:56] <daf> I've changed my mind about the fuzzy flag
[05:56] <daf> I think fuzziness and completeness should be orthogonal in the database, but related on export
[05:56] <carlos> :-?
[05:57] <carlos> could you then give me a propossal?
[05:57] <BradB> oh yeah, ok, cool, useful debugging output.
[05:57] <carlos> :-)
[05:57] <daf> carlos: sure :)
[05:57] <daf> carlos: ok, so I think a translator should be able to mark a message set non-fuzzy even if it is not complete
[05:57] <daf> carlos: but if a message set is not complete, it should be fuzzy on export
[05:58] <daf> carlos: this method means we don't have to set fuzzy flags on import
[05:58] <carlos> ok
[05:58] <daf> how does it sound?
[05:58] <carlos> It's ok for me, I don't have a preference about all this as soon as it's consistent
[05:58] <carlos> it's another approach and I see it as valid as the previous one
[05:59] <daf> ok, sorry for being slow to get this decided
[05:59] <debonzi> spiv, seems to me that IPasswordResets is not right
[05:59] <daf> did I answer your question?
[05:59] <carlos> let me think about it looking for "problems"
[05:59] <daf> ok, I think maybe I need a bit more sleep
[06:00] <debonzi> spiv, ops.. wait
[06:00] <carlos> so when we import a po file, if we have all plural forms, iscomplete = TRUE if it's fuzzy or it lacks a plural form iscomplete = FALSE
[06:01] <carlos> fuzzy = TRUE only if the msgset is fuzzy in the pofile
[06:01] <daf> iscomplete = TRUE if we have all translations
[06:01] <daf> fuzzy = TRUE if it has the fuzzy flag
[06:02] <debonzi> spiv, yes.. but it is in IAuthApplication .. it does not define getPersonFromDatabase
[06:02] <daf> that's all
[06:02] <daf> on export: fuzzy = ((fuzzy = TRUE) or (iscomplete = FALSE))
[06:02] <carlos> from the website, fuzzy as the translator sets it and iscomplete= TRUE only if we have all pluralforms
[06:02] <carlos> ok
[06:02] <daf> yes
[06:02] <carlos> I think we will not have any hard problem with this model
[06:03] <daf> yeah, I think it's slightly easier than the previous revision
[06:03] <spiv> debonzi: That would explain it :)
[06:03] <carlos> yes
[06:03] <carlos> we fix .po files we will export
[06:03] <carlos> and don't touch .po files we import
[06:04] <daf> yep
[06:04] <daf> it's nice because it meets "be liberal in what you accept and careful in what you generate"
[06:04] <debonzi> spiv, also, EmailAddress is used inside auth/__init__.py but is not imported
[06:05] <spiv> debonzi: Heh.  Badly broken :)
[06:06] <carlos> daf: true
[06:06] <debonzi> spiv, and there are some more little thinks :) do you want me to fix it?
[06:07] <debonzi> s/thinks/things
[06:07] <spiv> debonzi: Yes please :)
[06:07] <debonzi> spiv, right
[06:20] <salgado> BradB: ping?
[06:22] <debonzi> spiv, fixed.. Ill merge it into rocketfuel
[06:25] <spiv> debonzi: Great :)
[06:25] <spiv> debonzi: Thank you
[06:25] <BradB> salgado: pong
[06:26] <debonzi> spiv, no problem :)
[06:26] <salgado> BradB: did you removed pkgurgency and binaries from ISourcePackageRelease?
[06:28] <BradB> salgado: Yep, as mentioned yesterday I fixed ISourcePackageRelease to what it used to be, so that it does what it's expected to do (i.e. be an ISourcePackageRelease.)
[06:28] <BradB> salgado: You'll need to create a new interface for the view.
[06:29] <BradB> s/be an ISourcePackageRelease/be a schema for a source package release/
[06:30] <salgado> BradB: but pkgurgency and binaries already was in ISourcePackageRelease, they're not part of our view
[06:40] <BradB> salgado: I don't get it, why would they be schema attributes?
[06:40] <BradB> there's already "urgency", which surely must be the same as pkgurgency, and if not, one of them needs renaming
[06:42] <salgado> BradB: pkgurgency is a property to translate urgency using dbschema
[06:43] <BradB> salgado: I'm not sure if that's a common way to handle that, but I don't think we should do that. Schemas are meant to describe what kind of data we want to store.
[06:44] <BradB> it turns out that those dbschema vocabs are just more trouble than they're worth, I think
[06:45] <BradB> if that stuff were stored in tables, life would be easier (because we could simple do dot access on the relevant sqlobject properties to get the title, instead of BugStatusVocabulary.items[foo.bar] .title, etc.)
[06:45] <salgado> BradB: the fact is that we need pkgurgency in ISourcePackegeRelease, cause if it's not there, classes implementing this Interface will break, as they access pkgurgency
[06:46] <BradB> i checked in the change because the tests told me i didn't break anything.
[06:47] <BradB> feel free to add them back though, but i'd suggest first writing a test that breaks because they're not there, and then adding them to make the test pass.
[06:49] <BradB> (this might mean generating a functional doctest, which is even better, because you don't have to write any code.)
[06:52] <salgado> BradB: can you please cc to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>?
[06:53] <BradB> sure
[06:53] <salgado> thanks
[07:18] <salgado> BradB: is there something I need to do before running make check?
[07:19] <BradB> salgado: nope
[07:33] <daf> INVALID SIGNATURE ON REVISION!
[07:33] <daf>   archive<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[07:33] <daf>   revision launchpad--devel--0--patch-736
[07:33] <daf>   checksum file: checksum
[07:33] <daf> ?!
[07:34] <carlos> daf: press the arch HELP button :-)
[07:34] <daf> I'm looking for it! :)
[07:34] <daf> > tla panic
[07:34] <daf> tla: unrecognized command (panic)
[07:40] <carlos> :-P
[08:04] <carlos> daf: I found the problem to this new approach (sorry O:-))
[08:04] <daf> :)
[08:04] <daf> what is it?
[08:04] <carlos> daf: it's solved adding a precondition before calling to makeTranslationSighting
[08:05] <carlos> the fuzzy flag should be set/removed before calling makeTranslationSighting
[08:05] <daf> why?
[08:05] <carlos> because that also controlls the iscomplete
[08:05] <daf> no, it doesn't
[08:05] <carlos> if it's fuzzy it's not complete
[08:05] <daf> no
[08:05] <carlos> no?
[08:05] <daf> fuzzy and completeness are not related
[08:05] <carlos> so fuzzy=TRUE and iscomplete=TRUE is valid?
[08:06] <daf> of course
[08:06] <carlos> ok, that also changed since yesterday :-)
[08:06] <daf> "complete, but needs review"
[08:06] <carlos> ok
[08:06] <carlos> # Explicit set of iscomplete
[08:06] <carlos>         # If we have all translations, it's complete, if we lack a
[08:06] <carlos>         # translation, it's not complete. Also, it's not complete if it's
[08:06] <carlos>         # fuzzy.
[08:06] <carlos>         if None in self.translations():
[08:06] <carlos>             # The set is not complete
[08:06] <carlos>             self.iscomplete = False
[08:06] <carlos>         else:
[08:06] <carlos>             self.iscomplete = True
[08:06] <carlos> that's the code added to makeTranslationSighting
[08:06] <daf> complete ONLY means "has the correct number of translations"
[08:06] <carlos> ok
[08:07] <daf> the two flags are only related on export
[08:07] <carlos> hmm /s/Explicit/implicit/
[08:07] <carlos> and forget the fuzzy comment
[08:07] <daf> looks good
[08:11] <daf> we should update the documentation
[08:18] <carlos> I know
[08:19] <carlos> I'm also trying to guess how to write a unittest for this change
[08:19] <carlos> or should It be a functional test?
[08:42] <daf> hmm
[08:43] <daf> I think it would be difficult to make a unit tet
[08:43] <daf> test
[08:50] <carlos> daf: yeah, I discarted it already
[08:51] <cprov> daf|carlos: do you know how to delete a row using SQLO ?
[08:52] <daf> cprov: I think it's in The Guide
[08:52] <carlos> cprov: not sure if it's the same, but SQLObject.delete() should remove it
[08:52] <carlos> hmmm
[08:53] <carlos> SQLO == SQLObject
[08:53] <carlos> right?
[08:53] <cprov> carlos: aha, yes
[08:53] <carlos> I need to sleep more...
[08:53] <cprov> carlos: lol
[08:53] <cprov> daf:our guide in wiki ?
[08:54] <carlos> cprov: yes
[08:54] <daf> cprov: https://wiki.canonical.com/SQLObjectGuide#head-d6f5636098cd458ce9d22939f8e3e8deab0e9bd0
[08:54] <carlos> www.sqlobject.org has also some documentation
[08:56] <salgado> cprov: obj.destroySelf() or cls.delete(id)
[08:58] <cprov> daf: carlos: salgado: thanks
[09:01] <daf> carlos: I've already gone to sleep once since I got up :)
[09:02] <carlos> daf: :-D
[09:02] <carlos> see you later
[09:02] <carlos> good weekend if I don't see you before Monday
[09:02] <debonzi> carlos, have fun
[11:10] !alindeman:*! Hi all!  The irssi project is redesigning their website and are having a contest, looking for the person who comes up with the best design for the new site.  If you're interested, please see the rules on http://www.irssi.org/ and join #irssi-site


[00:55] <michealPW> Is there an easy way to make a video of my desktop, to demonstrate weird graphical glitches Konsole has after I resize it? :\
[00:56] <michealPW> Iunno how to really describe it with words. I guess it goes black and it fails to redraw the window properly (It's missing the file|edit menus, the scroll bar, all the text from the terminal etc.) after I resize the window in Kubuntu 12.04.1 (KDE 4.9.4)
[00:58] <michealPW> gnome-terminal does not have these glitches in KDE, oddly enough, just Konsole.
[02:09] <ablyss> vlc has a desktop capture
[02:09] <ablyss> michealPW, ^^
[02:15] <urlwolf> after the latest kde release, I lose mouse and keyboard input
[02:15] <urlwolf> strange
[02:15] <urlwolf> I use awesomewm, but that cannot be, I restart the wm and problem persists
[02:15] <urlwolf> only happens after a while
[02:16] <urlwolf> dolphin at times pegs the cpu (kdeinit, but dolphin is a subprocess)
[03:18] <michealPW> So the workaround is to use konsole --notransparency
[03:21] <michealPW> So then I updated the menu entry for konsole and added that. I also edited 'Default Applications' to a custom terminal konsole --notransparency. Then I added a custom .desktop file in ~/.kde/share/kde4/services/ServiceMenu/ that added another "Open terminal here" action in Dolphin. It's listen in _addition_ to the one that opens konsole but meh, I guess it's a functioning workaround for anyone with that problem.
[03:23] <michealPW> Does anyone know where the original "Open terminal here" .desktop file is? I couldn't for the life of me find it.
[03:24] <michealPW> There must be a cleaner way to do it than the way I did but I'm new (blush)
[04:21] <CJ_> hi
[04:41] <unheeding> hello CJ_
[04:42] <CJ_> hi i am new to ubuntu
[04:45] <unheeding> how's it treating you?
[05:13] <ronnoc_> Happy 12.12.12!
[06:33] <jeltsch> Hi, I have an external harddisk. Everytime I mount it, Nepomuk starts to index it. I don’t understand why.
[06:33] <jeltsch> First, the KDE system settings say that Nepomuk should only index my home folder and not removable media.
[06:34] <jeltsch> Second, I thought that once Nepomuk has read the harddisk, it won’t reread it, but only check for changes.
[07:32] <xephexx> we got any ubuntu 12.04 users out there....
[07:34] <mihu> Hi. There is one thing I cannot figure out in Kubuntu 12.10. By default, Kubuntu will restore my session upon the next login. Where can I disable that in the "System Settings"?
[07:37] <tsimpson_> mihu: under Startup and Shutdown -> Session Management
[07:40] <mihu> tsimpson_: Ah, found it, thank you very much.  :-)
[07:45] <alumno> Hola
[07:45] <CosmicB> I'm running kubuntu 12.10 with kde 4.9.4, anybody else having problems with nepomuk file indexing ?
[07:46] <CosmicB> akonadictl status say's 'Akonadi Server Search Support: not available'
[07:47] <alumno> Eii
[07:47] <alumno_> k pasa melena
[07:47] <CosmicB> I tried to fix this yesterday, got me into a LOT of problems, anything from any akonadi process using 100% cpu, so kontact not wanting to startup . ended up with about an hour of fiddling just to get me back where i started
[07:47] <alumno> MELENA CAGON
[07:47] <alumno_> hellow
[07:47] <alumno_> hello
[07:47] <alumno> Como va eso cariño
[07:48] <alumno__> asi
[07:48] <tsimpson_> !es | alumno__
[07:48] <alumno__> k sino no ai diferencia entre ambos nombres
[07:48] <alumno__> !es
[08:04] <isffg> can some1 tell me some really nice keyboard for ~100$
[08:14] <xephexx__> I recently went to Ubuntu and left Kubuntu because I love screenlets and I hate Kubuntu's Anokondi
[08:14] <isffg> can some1 tell me some really nice keyboard for ~100$
[08:21] <Gwennifer> Why can't I make a new folder in /usr/share/apps/? o3o
[08:23] <tsimpson_> because you don't own it, root does
[08:30] <Gwennifer> Oh
[08:30] <Gwennifer> How would I make a new folder there?
[08:30] <tsimpson_> why do you need to?
[08:30] <Gwennifer> Trying to install a theme ._.;
[08:30] <tsimpson_> why not install it in your $HOME?
[08:31] <Gwennifer> Iunno, I'm just following the .txt that came with it :x
[08:31] <tsimpson_> ~/.kde/share/apps/desktoptheme/ is probably what you want
[08:33] <Gwennifer> Oh
[08:33] <Gwennifer> Thank you :o
[08:34] <Gwennifer> I like how Konqueror works :3
[08:36] <xephexx__> Did anybody online go to OIT
[08:40] <xephexx__> I think I like ubuntu 12.04 better than 12.10 for some reason with 12.10 my computer idled at 45 degrees celcius but with 12.04 it idles at 31 degrees celcius...I don't know why
[08:41] <xephexx__> could somebody give me some idea as to why
[08:41] <mihu> I switched from Xfce to Kubuntu. In gnome-terminal I can switch between tabs using Alt+<Number>, ie. Alt-5 to go to the 5th tab. This is not possible by default in "Konsole". Can this be configured?
[08:42] <cortexA9> hello i tried kubuntu 12.10 on nexus 7
[08:44] <cortexA9> but plasma desktop doesn't work with touch.
[08:49] <cortexA9> please help me
[08:50] <cortexA9> how can i try plasma desktop on nexus 7
[08:50] <cortexA9> i have it but touch doesn't work
[10:31] <yoyo> ау
[10:39] <yoyo> россия?
[10:43] <yoyo> what is this?
[13:07] <mime_1111> heeey ppl. any way to change the ''upper-left'' error that i get when pressing the left and up key, taht it results in a non diagonal direction
[13:07] <mime_1111> thnx
[13:47] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[14:39] <mbumgarner> has anyone compiled and installed Remmina 1.0? I could use some slight help
[14:39] <mbumgarner> i get an error with the CMakeList.txt
[14:47] <BluesKaj> mbumgarner, check this , http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4669215/cmake-compilation-error
[15:02] <vitimiti> o/
[15:59] <hickimse> hi i got lgx130 netbook http://www.umpcportal.com/products/LG/X130/ with 2gb ram and (of course) i want to use kde. so what can i do for speed it up?
[16:01] <Hydrant_> hickimse: disable all the effects? disable virtuoso / nepomuk
[16:02] <hickimse> i disabled efects and neopumk
[16:02] <BluesKaj> hickimse, if you don't need desktop search , disable it in system settings and make akonadi server isn't enabled if you don't use kmail or kontact
[16:02] <Hydrant_> are you sure you got all the effects?  There are a ton of them
[16:02] <BluesKaj> make sure
[16:03] <hickimse> i disabled start in boot and all efects
[16:03] <BluesKaj> Hydrant_, he can disable all of them by unchecking desktop effects
[16:04] <Hydrant_> BluesKaj: there are more tho
[16:04] <hickimse> and when i look akonadi it says akonadi service dont work
[16:04] <BluesKaj> You can disable akonadi in system settings>startup&shutdown>service manager , nepomuk search module (tied to akonadi), uncheck that.Then in session mangement , check "restore previous session" and add akonadi, nepomuk to the "applications to be excluded from sessions" text .
[16:05] <BluesKaj> hickimse, ^
[16:06] <Hydrant_> is there any sort of dnsmasq integration with wicd?
[16:06] <Hydrant_> I need to be able to pass queries for particular TLDs to a different DNS server than whatever is on the system
[16:07] <BluesKaj> Hydrant_, ethernet or wifi ?
[16:07] <Hydrant_> either
[16:08] <Hydrant_> I have a VPN running, and only corporate hosts should be looked up with the corporate DNS
[16:08] <BluesKaj> I use dnsmasq , but I don't use a network manager
[16:08] <hickimse> what other services i should uncheck? e.g. write service?
[16:08] <Hydrant_> BluesKaj: you set it manually to a global DNS?
[16:10] <BluesKaj> hickimse, did you uncheck  the" enable desktop effects at startup" box , in system settings>desktop effects?
[16:10] <hickimse> yes
[16:10] <BluesKaj> good
[16:12] <BluesKaj> Hydrant_ global dns ?
[16:15] <hickimse> BluesKaj Hydrant thanks for help
[16:16] <BluesKaj> I use the opendns nameserver in /etc/resolvconf/resolv.conf.d/head and local IPs in /etc/hosts.allow , and the dnsmasq is set to localhost
[16:16] <BluesKaj> Hydrant_,^
[16:18] <BluesKaj> also  the /etc/network/interfaces file is set to static IP with no dhcp
[16:18] <BluesKaj> same goes for /etc/dnsmasq.conf
[16:20] <BluesKaj> but I don't use a wifi setup on this pc , so no network manager is needed
[16:23] <Hydrant_> sounds like just a vanilla resolv.conf file
[16:24] <BluesKaj> resolv.conf  has been replaced by /etc/resolvconf/resolv.conf.d/
[16:25] <BluesKaj> it's bit messier to deal with but the workaround does the trick
[16:28] <BluesKaj> BBL , ...time to push some snow
[16:33] <hellslinger> after upgrading to 4.9.4, my brightness rapidly switches back and forth between settings when I plug in power to my netbook, does anyone know anything about this?
[18:40] <lordievader> Good evening
[18:49] <ed32567643456> hi, what is the best free usenet client for linux (kubuntu)?
[18:50] <dniMretsaM> ed32567643456: there is one that integrates with the Kontact suite. I'm totally blanking on the name, though
[18:51] <dniMretsaM> ed32567643456: it's called KNode.
[18:59] <heoyea_> Kwooty
[19:47] <vitimiti> I've got an issue with Kopete, it seems to forget the account I added until I try to add them again, then they appear: if I try to add again a jabber account, all of the accounts I had come again. Why is this happening, and is there a way to solve it?
[19:58] <bjrohan> HELP. I did the latest update today and now I have lost my muon package manager, and I can not enable wireless networking :-(
[19:59] <yofel> bjrohan: as a start, open konsole and run 'sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop' in case something was removed
[19:59] <yofel> you might need a wired network connection though if you can't use wireless
[19:59] <bjrohan> I am hooked up to wired right now on the machine in question
[20:00] <bjrohan> I had lost Konversation as well
[20:00] <bjrohan> yofel: upon running your command it says it has 60MB to download,  hmmm
[20:01] <yofel> ok, could you please pastebin you /var/log/apt/history.log? This shouldn't happen...
[20:01] <yofel> bjrohan: does it want to *remove* anything?
[20:02] <bjrohan> yofel: when it is done I will pastebin that as well
[20:02] <yofel> ok, thanks
[20:04] <bjrohan> yofel: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1428258/
[20:05] <bjrohan> yofel: history.log - http://paste.ubuntu.com/1428259/
[20:06] <yofel> thanks, I'll see if I can reproduce this later
[20:07] <bjrohan> yofel:  ifconfig - http://paste.ubuntu.com/1428263/
[20:18] <pawlo_231> is there any tool to configure sound blaster x-fi?
[20:39] <Tygart> how do I update Qt libraries?
[20:39] <Tygart> I am looking to update to 4.8.4
[20:42] <ikonia> Tygart: if there are updates available from kubuntu they will be offered to you
[20:42] <Tygart> ikonia: not my question
[20:42] <Tygart> Thats ok I will ask devel
[20:42] <ikonia> that's not a support channel
[20:44] <vitimiti> I've got an issue with Kopete, it seems to forget the account I added until I try to add them again, then they appear: if I try to add again a jabber account, all of the accounts I had come again. Why is this happening, and is there a way to solve it?
[21:12] <regis> with kubuntu 12.10, my Kde session hangs when the mouse cursor is touching the  border of the screen ? Any idea ?
[21:12] <regis> hi
[21:14] <Peace-> regis: sounds like a driver bug
[21:14] <Peace-> regis: nvidia?
[21:14] <regis> yes nvidia
[21:15] <Peace-> regis: i suggest you to join on #kde channel but not now many guys lives in europe so i guess when in rome or berlin is 4 5pm
[21:16] <Peace-> regis: you could try to change even some stuff in systemsettings
[21:16] <Peace-> regis: disable blur effect for example
[21:16] <Peace-> regis: disable effects to see if it's a problem of kwin
[21:16] <Peace-> regis: try to use xrender instead of opengl
[21:18] <regis> ok Peace tks for the quick answer, i will try
[21:18] <Peace-> good luck
[21:47] <cmagina> running into some issues with the new kmix in 4.10 on raring among other sound issues on one system (a second system isn't suffering any of the problems)
[22:47] <cmagina> nm on my kmix issues, they were actually pa issues, ugh
[23:12] <Catbuntu> hiya
[23:18] <simplew> yofel: ping
[23:18] <yofel> simplew: pong
[23:19] <simplew> yofel: do you know about grub? im trying to change its look
[23:19] <yofel> not any more than fiddling around with /etc/grub.d/05_debian_theme
[23:19] <yofel> I haven't bothered theming it much
[23:39] <simplew> ANyone around that can help with GRUB?
[23:39] <simplew> i have asked in #ubuntu, sorry