[00:03] <DarkenedGentlema> Does Ubuntu 22.04 not have ssh key support enabled by default?
[00:03] <DarkenedGentlema> does the ssh-server not have key auth enabled by default?
[00:03] <sarnold> can you rephrase your question?
[00:04] <DarkenedGentlema> thru my key into authorized_keys and it loosk like it's not using it.
[00:04] <tmus> it's enabled by default. check user, file permissions etc
[00:05] <DarkenedGentlema> Also this is in the sshd_config #PubkeyAuthentication yes
[00:05] <DarkenedGentlema> commendted out
[00:05] <sarnold> DarkenedGentlema: is it perchance an old ssh-rsa key? those are disabled by default now https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/jammy-jellyfish-release-notes/24668
[00:05] <DarkenedGentlema> ya, it's a older key, ssh-rsa
[00:06] <tmus> DarkenedGentlema, commented out but enabled by default
[00:06] <murmel> yes, but it shows you the default
[00:08] <sarnold> DarkenedGentlema: aha, nice; you can either configure the system to accept old keys again or generate a shiny new key
[00:08] <DarkenedGentlema> So is it just not supporting rsa keys anymore, or does it have to do with the key length?
[00:09] <DarkenedGentlema> I'd rather now have to update hundreds of servers with a new key, anyway to "upgrade" my old key so that it works on old and new?
[00:11] <DarkenedGentlema> ssh-keygen still looks to default to an rsa key.  I'm a bit confused here as to what's going on.  Is it just key length?
[00:11] <sarnold> you can stuff a Host ... HostkeyAlgorithms +ssh-rsa  PubkeyAcceptedAlgorithms +ssh-rsa  match block into your client configuratoin to allow you to connect to servers that are too old
[00:13] <DarkenedGentlema> Must be key length because the rsa key i just generated worked fine.
[00:15] <sarnold> it might be, I thought it was the specific hash choice, heh
[00:17] <murmel> sarnold: release notes say that rsa is disabled :/
[00:19] <murmel> ahh reading the release notes of openssh, it talks about sha-1 being disabled
[00:19] <sarnold> > The available RSA signature variants are “ssh-rsa” (SHA1 signatures, not recommended), “rsa-sha2-256”, and “rsa-sha2-512” (the default).
[00:20] <sarnold> https://man.openbsd.org/ssh-keygen
[00:22] <linext> tomreyn, https://i.ibb.co/3SFhfBf/image.png
[00:24] <sarnold> linext: namei -l /home/jesse/Downloads/kisslicer_linux64_1.6.3_release/KISSlicer  might explain something
[00:25] <linext> https://i.ibb.co/bbffsng/image.png
[00:27] <sarnold> linext: note the permissions on /home/jessie would prevent a process executing as www-data from getting to the file
[00:28] <linext> can i grant access to www-data?
[00:28] <linext> chown ?
[00:30] <sarnold> you can either chmod the directory to allow the world read and execute access; you can use setfacl to add read and execute permissions specifically for www-data (or whatever process is executing); there's other choices but these are least likely to be disruptive
[00:35] <linext> hmmmm...
[00:36] <linext> i still get permission denied
[00:37] <sarnold> if you execute KISSlicer in the shell by hand, does it execute fine?
[00:37] <linext> yep, the command runs as my user
[00:39] <linext> does php on linux come with exec() and proc_open() turn on by default?
[00:39] <linext> this is the command
[00:39] <linext> https://ibb.co/p1d8XK3
[00:39] <linext> here's the code: https://ibb.co/vCNqHkq
[00:40] <sarnold> man these are fuzzy, I hope your view is way less fuzzy :)
[00:40] <linext> click the image to zoom in
[00:41] <sarnold> so, ahhh enable a bunch of JS and the it'll load a better version, thanks
[00:41] <linext> https://i.ibb.co/SDkyPBy/image.png
[00:41] <sarnold> MUCH BETTER
[00:41] <ladeda> I am running into a really strange issue on Ubuntu 20.04 I have a local repo I use with trusted=yes set yet when I run apt it errors "The following signatures couldn't be verified" but it should not be doing this step I have verified this repo doesn't exist any where else it's only in a single place and does have the trusted option set. I try the
[00:41] <ladeda> debug options i.e. Debug::Acquire::gpgv=true and Debug::pkgAcquire::Auth but I am not seeing any useful information. Anyone ever run into this issue before?
[00:42] <sarnold> so, I think there's a few possibilities -- first, that -o /home/jesse/.../3003.gcode sure looks like an output file. that means the /home/jesse/.../ directory needs to allow this user to WRITE to the directory
[00:42] <sarnold> or, better yet, store the output someplace that it can write to already
[00:43] <linext> like /var/www/html/
[00:44] <sarnold> the other thing that I wonder about -- the arguments to commands almost always need to be separated a bit more than these -- the '-o' should be a different array entry than the filename. quoted names usually screw up things to. maybe all that implode business means it's just building a string to hand to bash.. the 2>&1 sure suggests that's what's going on
[00:44] <linext> the php code is solid
[00:44] <linext> i'm already running it in Windows
[00:44] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: man, sbuild-qemu doesn't work with ubuntu :/
[00:45] <linext> i'm trying to diagnose a bug in KISSlicer to tell if it's OS specific
[00:45] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: Bummer.
[00:46] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: still not sure why, as it can't find ifupdown (which is in universe, and I enabled this)
[00:46] <arraybolt3[m]> Sadly I only use just plain sbuild, so sbuild-qemu is foreign territory to me.
[00:46] <arraybolt3[m]> (And I use sbuild on Ubuntu, so sbuild on Debian is also foreign to me :( )
[00:47] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: yeah, almost thinking about switching to ubuntu as the host OS, but I quite don't like it that I am being forced basically
[00:47] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: Then don't do that. Install Lubuntu in a virt-manager VM and everything should just work.
[00:47] <kushal_kumaran> linext: why involve php in this? You could just run that command on the shell, if that's all you need.
[00:47] <murmel> would rather go ubuntu-server, will still think about it
[00:48] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: Once you're running sbuild within the VM, you can use the Ubuntu version of sbuild while still having Debian on your hardware.
[00:48] <linext> kushal_kumaran, it's a web app
[00:48] <linext> the version 2 of 3dpartprice.com
[00:48] <linext> calculates time and material for printing STL files
[00:50] <sarnold> hmm, why does systemctl start-service mirror-rsync.service *hang* my shell when I run it? I thought the point of a service manager was to go off and do something useful rather than hang the shell. my service file: https://termbin.com/ehsg
[00:51] <kushal_kumaran> linext: thanks for the info. So are you specifically trying to debug the behavior when run through web? If so, then create a directory that is readable and writable by the www-data user and point your file paths to that directory. Also if you can, do show the error logs from the web server.
[00:51] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: For me, systemctl can always hang my shell, sometimes for a while. Maybe there's a systemctl switch to do it asynchronously or something.
[00:51]  * arraybolt3[m] looks
[00:52] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1004853/systemd-is-hanging-when-i-start-or-restart-a-service
[00:53] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: Use Type=simple rather than Type=OneShot.
[00:55] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: hmm now I wonder why I went with oneshot in the first place
[00:55] <kushal_kumaran> linext: I just looked back through your previous messages. Try switching to the www-data user in a shell and trying your command. You might need to set a shell for that user
[00:55] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: this isn't a persistent process, it should just execute for half an hour or something, then go away again for a few hours
[00:56] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: Then it will probably freeze your shell for half an hour. :)
[00:56] <murmel> sarnold: wouldn't a timer be more reasonable?
[00:56] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: If it's something that executes every few hours, perhaps you should shell script it with a timer like murmel suggests?
[00:56] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: You beat me to it!
[00:57] <murmel> ha :) finally my newly acquired mechanical keyboard pays off
[00:57] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m], murmel, here's the timer that fires it https://termbin.com/ehe5
[00:58] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: Also using Type=simple will leave the service dead when it finishes, so if you're ok with that I don't see why Type=simple would be bad.
[00:58] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: Also why use systemd at all? Wouldn't a cron job be more suited for this?
[00:59] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: yes, a cronjob would have saved me about two hours of getting this thing set up :)
[00:59] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: but it's been working more or less for a few years, and saving all the logs in the journal, which is pretty handy
[00:59] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: doesn't really matter :) and honestly I would rather have everything managed by systemd
[00:59] <sarnold> I think I'd rather it be managed by systemd, I just wish systemd weren't such crap
[00:59] <arraybolt3[m]> Eh, valid point.
[00:59] <kushal_kumaran> sarnold: --no-block
[01:00] <sarnold> kushal_kumaran: hey! I bet that'd do the trick
[01:00] <arraybolt3[m]> Oh. Welp, that should do it.
[01:01] <sarnold> kushal_kumaran: funny, I can't recall ever seeing that before, but there it is. once again: dear system, why is this seemingly-sane thing not the default and such a loooooong name? :)
[01:01] <sarnold> if this rsync ever finishes..
[01:01] <murmel> hm, I still believe that OneShot should be the correct Type
[01:01] <InPhase> sarnold: This sounds like a job for crontab.
[01:02] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: Yeah, you're not wrong, but when the thing lasts that long...
[01:02] <murmel> sure
[01:02] <murmel> sarnold: how big is the mirror? at least for 22
[01:02] <murmel> 22.04
[01:02] <arraybolt3[m]> OK, so asking a systemd question will also cause an explosion of opinions. /me adds that to the list of One Hundred and One Ways to Explode an Ubuntu IRC Channel
[01:03] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: lol
[01:03] <InPhase> sarnold: It just so happens I have a job running every 4 hours, crontab entry like:  0 */4 * * * /path/to/the/script   It works fine.
[01:04] <InPhase> sarnold: Rather than a mystery spacing of 4 hours and unspecified time of run, I know exactly when it launches based on time of day.
[01:04] <murmel> sarnold: the more I read, simple _is_ the correct
[01:05] <murmel> I quite like that post https://trstringer.com/simple-vs-oneshot-systemd-service/
[01:05] <sarnold> murmel: I rsync the whole thing, not just one release; I'm apparently around 2TB at the moment:
[01:05] <sarnold> $ zfs list srv/mirror/ubuntu
[01:05] <sarnold> NAME                USED  AVAIL  REFER  MOUNTPOINT
[01:05] <sarnold> srv/mirror/ubuntu  2.01T  5.66T  1.63T  /srv/mirror/ubuntu
[01:05] <kushal_kumaran> Using crontab for long jobs is doable. Read the man page for flock though, and consider using it. The chronic utility is also useful, and you might want to investigate an external dead man switch type monitoring solution
[01:05] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: Yikes, are you running a whole Ubuntu mirror?
[01:06] <sarnold> kushal_kumaran: yeah, the whole need to use run_one or run-one or whatever, and deal with appending the output, and preventing cron from *actually* sending email, etc, was enough for me to think that I ought to try systemd timers
[01:06] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: yeah
[01:07] <murmel> sarnold: welp, somebody really wants _all_ the debs
[01:07] <InPhase> sarnold: Cron won't send emails if you just dump stdout and stderr to /dev/null or to a log file.
[01:07] <arraybolt3[m]> sarnold: Cool. Does that actually help the Ubuntu project? I thought about doing that at one point.
[01:08] <sarnold> murmel: heh, I've even asked the archive admins if it'd be possible to get a single "combined view", with ports.ubuntu.com and archive.ubuntu.com on *one* filesystem -- like it is on the internal archive -- but sadly the only thing publically exposed is split in two :(
[01:08] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: it does, as long as it's public
[01:08] <murmel> :/
[01:08] <sarnold> arraybolt3[m]: I run full archive searches on mine, unpack all the sources to have all the source files in plocate, etc. it's a bit odd :)
[01:08] <murmel> sarnold: that's weird. why wouldn't they combine it :/
[01:09] <sarnold> murmel: because it's work to make it happen and I'm currently the only one nutter enough to want it :)
[01:09] <murmel> sarnold: saying nothing against it. would love to have a mirror always with me
[01:09] <sarnold> they've offered to punch me a hole through the firewall before but I don't want the VPN on that machine
[01:11] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: maybe i should add, that it also helps when not public, as you would run a mirror when you have multiple systems -> less traffic for the project
[01:12] <sarnold> most people would probably be better served with a squid-deb-proxy on their network
[01:12] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: Makes sense. I guess it depends on how many systems you're running - when the total bandwidth of a single upgrade operation approaches the size of just pulling the whole archive, it's time to think about running a personal mirror.
[01:13] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: for example
[01:14] <InPhase> How much traffic would the rsync be transmitting every 4 hours just to check for updates on all 2TB of that?
[01:14] <murmel> InPhase: afaik not that much, as it's checking hashes
[01:14] <InPhase> Must be a lot of files though.
[01:15] <murmel> definitely
[01:15] <sarnold> here's a run from a few days ago https://termbin.com/1b7m
[01:15] <InPhase> If I learned it was 20GB, I wouldn't be too shocked.  :)
[01:15] <kushal_kumaran> In default configuration, rsync only compares file sizes and mtime AFAIK.
[01:16]  * arraybolt3[m] realizes I way overestimated when it would be time to set up a personal mirror - if you're running enough computers to download nearly 2 TB in a single update you're already WAY past the point of needing your own mirror
[01:16] <murmel> I always like the bytes/sec :S
[01:18] <InPhase> sarnold: Is that a full run there, showing about 1.5GB of traffic to do the check across 13 minutes?
[01:19] <InPhase> sarnold: Oh, I guess more than checking.  It shows changes there.  So the checking was some amount less.
[01:20] <sarnold> InPhase: yeah, that's both phases of a two-phase copy https://termbin.com/p8ht
[01:20] <sarnold> my machine has been off for the weekend (it's too stupid hot here these days) and it ran for 28m42s before giving me the prompt back :)
[01:20] <murmel> InPhase: you see with the second run is only a few hundred megs
[01:21] <InPhase> arraybolt3[m]: Well bandwidth is still cheap compared to disks, so it takes a lot of such updates before the mirror system pays for itself.
[01:22] <InPhase> murmel: Am I supposed to believe that 6 second interval is a full check?
[01:22] <InPhase> Is the mirroring software using a special rsync setup that pre-stores the info on the files or something that the rsync would need to know?
[01:23] <arraybolt3[m]> InPhase: Yeah but using bandwidth is still sapping money away from Canonical and their helpers, so using tons of bandwidth would be detrimental to the Ubuntu project. Reducing bandwidth = reducing cost = keep the project alive! And so much the better if you donate bandwidth, which is what I wanted to do.
[01:23] <murmel> InPhase: idk the second run is almost 4 mins
[01:23] <InPhase> murmel: Oh, 2 minutes 8 seconds.  Eyes and math failed me both at the same time.  :)
[01:26] <InPhase> arraybolt3[m]: Agreed on those points.  Different group calculation there, but important.
[02:10] <DarkenedGentlema> in netplan's routes, can i specify a dev rather than IP?
[02:20] <jhutchins> !netplan
[02:21] <jhutchins> DarkenedGentlema: Maybe work directly with the filters/tables?
[04:56] <Hash> If you have a btrfs @ and @home/subvolume, and if you need to reinstall, and then how does it know to only install over @ and leave @home alone?
[05:18] <alkisg> Morning all; which package displays this dialog on apt upgrades? I'd like to remove it:
[05:18] <alkisg> > Newer kernel available The currently running kernel version is 5.4.0-122-generic which is not the expected kernel  version 5.15.0-43-generic.  Restarting the system to load the new kernel will not be handled automatically, so you should consider rebooting.
[05:24] <alkisg> I think it's an apt hook that got installed when I installed something related to ubuntu-advantage, esm etc, but when I removed these, it wasn't removed...
[05:29] <alkisg> Comparing /etc with another server that doesn't show that dialog, I see no related differences...
[06:47] <geirha> if it's terminal dialog boxes, it's likely whiptail
[06:50] <geirha> Mh, nevermind, I didn't read the problem thoroughly
[06:51] <alkisg> It's indeed whiptail but I didn't manage to find out what triggers it in one server (making apt full-upgrade annoying) and not on all the other servers
[07:05] <fawan> i got a question about asterisk and odoo voip connection
[07:05] <fawan> https://serverfault.com/questions/1107543/my-asterisk-server-cant-read-extensions-conf
[07:52] <Ecko> Hi, I'm getting the following message: "Unattended upgrade result: Lock could not be acquired"
[07:53] <Ecko> Now I see that /var/lib/dpkg/lock exists, but read that the lock file is there to stay permanently. So now I'm kinda lost on where to look on getting this fixed
[07:53] <Ecko> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
[08:03] <elias_a> Ecko: Is your root partition out of space?
[08:03] <Ecko> No, 40% used
[08:04] <elias_a> alkisg: Σας εύχομαι καλή μέρα!
[08:05] <alkisg> Καλημέρα elias_a :)
[08:05] <elias_a> Ecko: Are you using GUI or CLI?
[08:06] <Ecko> cli
[08:07] <elias_a> Ecko: Could there be another update process that is locking the file? Perhaps a GUI window lurking among the dozens of other windows? :)
[08:11] <Ecko> Not sure. Atleast no GUI, since it's a server. Already checked logfiles to see which processes are running, but can't quite find it yet
[08:13] <elias_a> Ok. I'm not that fluent with all the possible processes that might lock the file. Let's wait for answers from other users.
[08:14] <Ecko> sure, thanks for the help so far :)
[08:22] <elias_a> NP :)
[08:41] <sr-> is there a page that shows if/which version of mesa the next HWE stack (20.04.5) will contain? and also, I saw mentions of an "early preview" for those hwe releases. how can I opt in to those?
[08:42] <fouga> Hello everyone,
[08:42] <fouga>  I would like to fix issue with my ubuntu using kerberos (client).
[08:42] <fouga> "klist: Credentials cache keyring persistant not found"
[08:42] <fouga> Can someone help me please?
[08:42] <fouga> I have to do kinit everytime.
[08:42] <fouga> Thanks
[09:17] <seecrets> spyware OS
[09:17] <pony> they all are
[09:18] <seecrets> "they"?
[09:19] <pony> all oses
[09:19] <seecrets> what os do you use pony
[10:12] <circuitbone> he uses pwnyos but its a secret
[11:10] <ferz> Hi, on Ubuntu 20.04.4 LTS with one of last upgrade I'm not able to disable touchpad anymore using xinput.
[11:11] <ferz> http://paste.scsys.co.uk/483
[11:12] <ferz> I've tested using id 9 and someother without success
[11:14] <ferz> Please have you hint to achieve to disable touchpad.  It's a mess typing on keyboard while the pointer moves the cursor of text.
[12:33] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[13:25] <seecrets> pony i didnt see ur reply if you sent it
[13:25] <seecrets> what os do you use
[13:25] <seecrets> templeos?
[13:28] <leftyfb> seecrets: can we help you with something?
[13:29] <seecrets> yes, tell me what ubuntu is doing contacting snapcraft during installation
[13:29] <seecrets> and why does it have to check for connectivity so frequently
[13:30] <leftyfb> same thing it does checking the ubuntu deb repositories
[13:31] <leftyfb> seecrets: you do know that ubuntu desktop uses snaps by default for some applications now right?
[13:31] <seecrets> yes
[13:32] <leftyfb> then what is your concern?
[13:32] <seecrets> ubuntu provides spyware applications by default
[13:33] <leftyfb> seecrets: false. Feel free to go to #ubuntu-offtopic to rant though. This is a support channel
[13:33] <seecrets> so a browser that provides google as the default search engine isnt spyware
[13:33] <seecrets> https://imgur.com/a/YDi3xUT
[13:33] <seecrets> mind debunking this too
[13:34] <seecrets> so from what i can tell
[13:35] <seecrets> im telling someone everytime i install ubuntu
[13:35] <BluesKaj> oh lord, another troll looking for an argument...sigh
[13:35] <seecrets> and im telling someone everytime im using my ubuntu machine
[13:35] <seecrets> for the duration im using it
[13:35] <seecrets> im not trolling
[13:35] <leftyfb> seecrets: this isn't the place for your rants. Again, this is a support channel. Go to #ubuntu-offtopic
[13:36] <seecrets> okay
[14:45] <Pruners> I'm in Ubuntu, is there a way I can save an internet URL, to a desktop alias?
[14:50] <wez> Pruners: There is
[14:50] <wez> Pruners: https://www.google.com/search?q=ubuntu+url+launcher&oq=ubuntu+url+launcher
[15:45] <arkanoid> Hello! I'm installing ubuntu desktop 22.04 and I'm puzzled by the dropdown menu "device for boot loader installation"
[15:45] <leftyfb> arkanoid: pick your hard drive
[15:46] <arkanoid> Context: UEFI system, EFI partition already exists as sdb1, I've created a partire for /boot in sdb2
[15:46] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: The program your computer loads when it first boots up is the bootloader. The bootloader is what then starts Ubuntu. That bootloader has to be located somewhere, that option tells the Ubuntu installer where you want to put the bootloader. It should be put on whatever drive you want the system to boot from.
[15:46] <arraybolt3[m]> With that context, the bootloader should go in /dev/sdb1 I believe.
[15:47] <leftyfb> arkanoid: is there a reason why you're manually creating partitions, especially boot?
[15:48] <arkanoid> leftyfb:  yes, I'm doing some quite convoluted operation (after backup of course). I start from a dual boot windows + ubuntu, I want to remove windows and get ubuntu + ubuntu, but new ubuntu has LUKS working. I will remove old ubuntu after moving everything
[15:49] <arkanoid> So I am replacing windows partitions at the beginning of sdb with /boot and encrypted device as /
[15:50] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Your system does use EFI, right?
[15:51] <arraybolt3[m]> (Asking because I know Ubuntu will create an EFI partition even on a BIOS system, and so whether your system is EFI or BIOS will influence where you probably want to put the bootloader.)
[15:51] <arkanoid> Current situation is: sdb1 EFI, sdb2 /boot (new ubuntu), sdb3 / (encrypted new ubuntu), sdb4 / (old ubuntu without separate boot partition)
[15:52] <arkanoid> System is UEFI, yes. I've started the installer from UEFI and uefivars is mounted in installer
[15:52] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: OK, then the bootloader goes on /dev/sdb1.
[15:52] <imbezol> is there a way to disable the firefox snap update warning? says 13 days left to close it. problem is i close it, do a refresh, and then the next day there's another update. so this popup has become a part of my life every 5 minutes.
[15:53] <imbezol> i think i've closed that popup a thousand times
[15:53] <leftyfb> imbezol: it's a known bug they are working on
[15:53] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]:  what sdb2 /boot used for, then?
[15:53] <imbezol> super super annoying. i hope they fix it soon.
[15:58] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: OK, so the bootloader has two parts.
[15:58] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: There's an "early bootloader" that goes in the EFI partition.
[15:58] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Then there's the "rest of the bootloader" that goes in /boot and has things like extra modules for certain uses, along with the configuration file for GRUB.
[15:58] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Also the /boot partition holds the kernel and initramfs.
[15:59] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: The early bootloader goes wherever you select as the boot loader installation device.
[15:59] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: So you want GRUB to go in the EFI partition, /dev/sdb1. The system will autopopulate /dev/sdb2 with all the necessary extras (the rest of the bootloader) as well as other files critical to the boot process.
[16:01] <jhutchins> https://opensource.com/article/17/2/linux-boot-and-startup
[16:02] <arraybolt3[m]> (A similar process is used on BIOS systems, but the early bootloader and rest of the bootloader are somewhat different, though the same concepts still exist.)
[16:02] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]: thanks, it makes sense now. I have question then. What is generally called "stage 2 bootloader" is what runs from EFI partition or what runs from /boot?
[16:05] <jhutchins> arkanoid: That's one of the stages for Grub (or possibly other bootloaders).
[16:08] <jhutchins> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/what-is-grub-loading-stage2-745986/
[16:09] <jhutchins> arkanoid: A /boot partition is a mistake that will sooner or later run out of space and not allow you to upgrade your kernel.
[16:09] <jhutchins> There is no reason /boot should be a separate partition.
[16:10] <jhutchins> On archaic multi-user systems, /boot was mounted separately and unmounted at runtime so that malicious usrers could not tamper with the boot files.
[16:10] <arkanoid> jhutchins: I've been reading that separate /boot is required for booting when root is behind LUKS
[16:11] <jhutchins> https://www.techeblog.com/5mb-hard-drive-being-loaded-onto-a-plane-in-1956-and-35-more-cool-historical-photos/
[16:12] <jhutchins> arkanoid: There is a way to have /boot encrypted, I don't mess with such things.
[16:12] <jhutchins> arkanoid: It does provide additional entertainment when things go wrong.
[16:12] <arkanoid> I have (not yet) secure boot enabled (this will be my final target). So the boot process is currently efi in sdb1 >  grub in sdb2 > boots only with decryption password (this is working  now)
[16:15] <jhutchins> arkanoid: The purpose of "Secure Boot" is to prevent you from booting Linux install media and installing Linux.
[16:16] <arkanoid> jhutchins:  yeah, no. Please. I know what root of trust is
[16:17] <arkanoid> I can understand how firmware flashers deliver tpm with pre-flashed ms$ keys, but this doesn't mean what you say
[16:17] <leftyfb> lets try to stay on topic here
[16:17] <arkanoid> jhutchins:  also, my (very old) previous ubuntu installation with no separate boot partition has a /boot folder of 286MB
[16:18] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Keep in mind that is very very small for modern-day Ubuntu systems. 4 GB would be a safer /boot size IMO.
[16:19] <jhutchins> arkanoid: Yes, the boot folder is part of a standard Linux system.
[16:19] <arkanoid> I'm still in time for re-installing ubuntu with larger /boot partition or without it, but I want encrypted root and smooth daily sail like I've been experiencing so far without luks
[16:19] <arraybolt3[m]> (I saw someone in here with a /boot that was about that small. It was... not fun.)
[16:19] <jhutchins> It's convenient to have all of the required boot files in the same place, rather than breaking them out by version like the libraries and drivers.
[16:20] <jhutchins> There are a few distributions that do that, a seperate file tree for each kernel and a symlink in / that points to that tree.
[16:21] <jhutchins> That symlink also exists on some more standard systems for compatibility.
[16:21] <arkanoid> Rhel uses separate /boot
[16:21] <jhutchins> arkanoid: If you mean a separate partition, that's optional there as well.
[16:23] <arkanoid> jhutchins:  by default, you have separate boot partition
[16:24] <arkanoid> I'd like to get some confirmation about: is it really a risk having separate boot partition of 512MB size? Is it really a risk having boot embedded in root while keeping root encrypted with luks?
[16:25] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: I would keep /boot separate since it's what Ubuntu does by default.
[16:25] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: I would give at least 1GB to the /boot partition so that you have breathing room if things go haywire, maybe even 2 GB.
[16:26] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]: official docs says 256 - 1GB, I went 512, but I will reinstall now https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DiskSpace
[16:26] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: It is not a risk to have boot embedded in root while root is encrypted, but it does require that things be configured in just the right way. Ubuntu doesn't do it that way by default, though Lubuntu and Ubuntu Studio do. So it's possible, but I don't know how to do that.
[16:26] <arraybolt3[m]> (On stock Ubuntu I mean.)
[16:27] <arraybolt3[m]> Also, the docs are generally a good source of info, but they're also miserably outdated in some instances, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those instances.
[16:28] <arraybolt3[m]> Yeah, I'm seeing a mention of Ubuntu 10.04 (?!) in that Wiki article. I should edit that to reflect modern versions of Ubuntu.
[16:29] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]: I don't want to step too far away from defaults. Separate unencrypted boot seems not an higher risk for me. I mean, I would need an evil maid that tampers the boot/kernel. I just want to stay safe if laptop got lost/stolen
[16:32] <arkanoid> ubuntu core uses unencrypted boot while calling it Full Disk Encryption with chain of trust base don TPM2.0 enabled https://ubuntu.com/core/docs/uc20/full-disk-encryption
[16:33] <jhutchins> In spite of good intentions, the kernel and boot files do keep growing.
[16:33] <leftyfb> arkanoid: ubuntu core != ubuntu desktop/server. Feel free to discuss Ubuntu core in #snappy
[16:33] <jhutchins> It's been a long time since you could boot a system off of one floppy.
[16:34] <arkanoid> jhutchins: my other ubuntu installation went from 16.04 to 22.04 with daily usage, and /boot is 286MB
[16:34] <leftyfb> arkanoid: lets stay on topic with support questions you need help with
[16:34] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Then you should be fine with a separate unencrypted boot.
[16:35] <arkanoid> leftyfb: sure, but it's still an indicator that while encrypted /boot is possible, is not done even when secure boot is enabled by default
[16:35] <jhutchins> leftyfb: The question is how much space is adequate for /boot.
[16:35] <arraybolt3[m]> Were you to ever find your laptop again, you'd probably want to wipe and reinstall, restoring your data from a backup, but just LUKS'ing root and leaving boot unencrypted will work fine from a data security standpoint.
[16:36] <leftyfb> jhutchins: apparently in their case, they believe 286MB is adequate and don't seem interested in anyone elses opinion
[16:36] <arraybolt3[m]> leftyfb: They're just making a point trying to reason about wwhat is and isn't secure.
[16:36] <arraybolt3[m]> leftyfb: They said they were going to reinstall to make a bigger boot partition.
[16:37] <leftyfb> arraybolt3[m]: if the discussion were to continue to it's conclusion, throwing the PC into a fire is the most secure
[16:38] <arkanoid> I'm not saying it's adeguate, I actually said the opposite: I will reinstall now and use 2GB for /boot. What I just wanted to point out, is that a very old and frequently updated ubuntu installation still has a clean /boot folder of 286MB, and also the official docs says 256Mb to 1GB of size recommended.
[16:38] <arraybolt3[m]> leftyfb: I do a lot of security stuff and I can understand his concerns (since I've had those same concerns). And I'm still using a PC.
[16:39] <jhutchins> Actual use of the computer is discouraged as a security risk.
[16:39] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: True. And it will stay that way if everything goes perfectly well (though it will grow a bit and then shrink again). But when something unexpected happens and kernels start piling up... (I've had that happen to me a few times.) So that's why you want a good buffer of breathing room.
[16:40] <arraybolt3[m]> jhutchins: C'mon. I get where he's coming from. I don't know what he said that has you and leftyfb doing this to him, but please stop. It's not appreciated, especially as someone who's in the same boat.
[16:40] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]: thanks. I'm now curious when the piling up happens. Never happened in my experience. What takes update to save copies and copies of kernel versions / initrd images?
[16:40] <jhutchins> arkanoid: It's an old joke.
[16:41] <jhutchins> arkanoid: With the realease of 22.04 we've seen people here run into space limits with /boot partitions, so it's a valid issue.
[16:41] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: If something occurs that makes a kernel marked as manually installed, it will then stay there and not get autoremoved. That will cause there to be at least one extra kernel laying around.
[16:42] <jhutchins> ... plus config and initrd.
[16:43] <jhutchins> Does Ubuntu do the root symlink to the boot files?
[16:43] <arkanoid> k, reinstalling with 2GB now. If everything goes well like previous go, I will end up with two ubuntu installs like now. The only "obscure point" here to me yet is how grub "detects" other OSs
[16:44] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: There's a special config file that gets built by grub-mkconfig that tells GRUB where the other operating systems are and how to boot them.
[16:44] <arraybolt3[m]> That tool will automatically run during install time.
[16:44] <arraybolt3[m]> (However do note that only one OS will be detected in Ubuntu 22.04 since os-prober was disabled, there's a way to re-enable that if that's undesirable, but in your instance it sounds like it's just fine.)
[16:45] <arkanoid> the tools is detecting deleted windows as still present then. I guess because there are some leftovers in EFI (sdb1) partition?
[16:45] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Quite possibly. If you're OK with potentially rendering all operating systems except the one you're installing now unbootable, you could (maybe even should) wipe the EFI partition and make a new one.
[16:46] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]: no, I'm interested in having old ubuntu still working as before. This until I end my experiments with luks/secure boot on new installation
[16:47] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: OK. Actually, in that instance, what I'd do is go ahead and wipe the EFI partition, and then we'll just re-enable os-prober to pick up the original installation.
[16:47] <arraybolt3[m]> (I'll link to the instructions on re-enabling os-prober.)
[16:48] <arraybolt3[m]> https://askubuntu.com/questions/1410398/just-installed-ubuntu-22-04-on-a-dual-boot-setup-now-my-other-os-isnt-showing
[16:49] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]: I'm puzzled. If os-prober is disabled in 22.04, why I have grub showing 3 OSs (deleted windows, old ubuntu, new ubuntu with encrypted root) after the operation of deleting windows partitions to install new ubuntu?
[16:49] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Are you using Ubuntu 20.04?
[16:50] <arkanoid> no, 22.04
[16:50] <arkanoid> both old ubuntu installation and new ubuntu installation are ubuntu 22.04
[16:50] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmm... then you might be looking at your UEFI boot menu and not GRUB. Does the bootloader say "GNU GRUB" up at the top?
[16:51] <arkanoid> well, let me reboot to double check, but yeah I am quite sure. 1 minute
[16:52] <arraybolt3[m]> Maybe it's still picking up stuff from the EFI partition but not mounting things from other partitions then. I dunno.
[16:52] <arkanoid> I confirm GNU GRUB at boot with 3 OS options
[16:53] <arkanoid> Well whatever it is doing, it is making things work out of the box. Let's see what happens now that I'm going to reinstall new ubuntu ...
[16:54] <arkanoid> What should happen in EFI if I have more than one ubuntu installation on same system? Should I have one or two grub entries there?
[16:55] <arkanoid> I currently have EFI folder with Boot, Microsoft and ubuntu subfolders
[16:59] <arkanoid> The EFI/ubuntu/grub.cfg points to blkid of sdb2, so /boot of new ubuntu.
[16:59] <arkanoid> It means that os probe is working somehow on 22.04 as it detected all 3 OSs on installation
[17:00] <arkanoid> Let me double check in /boot/grub.cfg of newly installed Ubuntu if it matches the boot entries
[17:02] <arkanoid> Yep, I confirm /boot/grub/grub.cfg of newly installed Ubuntu contains entries for previously installed OSs, so probing is working
[17:04]  * ogra notes that there is no unencrypted /boot in Ubuntu Core systems that use secureboot with full disk encryption ... (and there is no way to have either/or, they only go together)
[17:10] <arg_> anyone using ubuntu on the HDMI TV sticks like the 1 from aliexpress, they say its ubuntu compatible, but it runs windows natively, just to hear how it runs, they have 2 and 4GB version.
[17:11] <arg_> sort of like the arm android tv sticks but its x86-64.
[17:11] <arg_> size of a usb stick.
[17:11] <leftyfb> arg_: https://ubuntu.com/certified
[17:11] <leftyfb> arg_: for anything else, you would just have to try it
[17:16] <arg_> leftyfb: yeah they are not branded things tho, i'm gonna hack 1 out to bring back a ubuntu phone competitor to the pine64. With a tiny hdmi touchscreen lol ;]
[17:16] <arraybolt3[m]> arkanoid: Hmm, not sure why it's picking them up then. I don't know if it's to be expected or not.
[17:16] <leftyfb> arg_: good luck
[17:18] <forgotmynick> i have rsyslog listening on a socket. how do i send test entries to that socket?
[17:19] <sarnold> forgotmynick: try logger
[17:21] <forgotmynick> sarnold: i love you
[17:22] <sarnold> forgotmynick: <3  :D
[17:27] <arkanoid> arraybolt3[m]:  I can confirm after reinstalling ubuntu plus deleting old EFI partition and recreating from scratch that the installer creates a grub config that permits loading old ubuntu install and all "advanced" sub options
[17:28] <arraybolt3[m]> Hmm. Maybe they changed something... though I'm not sure how that would make sense. Well, woot! Glad it's working, now I have one more thing confusing the sap out of my brain! 🤪
[17:44] <Hash> Hi
[17:44] <Hash> What is ~/.xtoolkit used by?
[17:47] <tomreyn> If i had to guess, i'd say the X Toolkit
[17:47] <leftyfb> I do not see that file mentioned anywhere having to do with ubuntu
[17:48] <leftyfb> the only thing I can find is a 3rd party tool not included in ubuntu called incubator-weex-cli
[17:50] <leftyfb> maybe week-tookit npm package
[17:50] <Hash> I thought that too, but it seems to have some node packages in there...
[17:50] <leftyfb> sorry, weex-toolkit
[17:50] <Hash> Isn't X toolkit just x libs and stuff? What what that have to do with node/npm
[17:51] <leftyfb> right, it's probably related to some npm package you installed
[17:51] <Hash> Unless it's like that intel cross platform mobnile app dev toolkit I might have instaleld once
[17:51] <Hash> \o/
[17:51] <leftyfb> ah right, Hash has me on ignore so didn't see any of this
[18:01] <sarnold> leftyfb: lol that's got to save a huge amount of time :)
[18:28] <skullone_> Is there a way in preseed to change the partman options to modify XFS filesystem format options? (ie. turn off reflinks, or other custom oddities)
[18:45] <tomreyn> skullone_: i don't know your answer, if the question refers to ubuntu desktop (it seems to). i also don't know your answer if the question would also extend to ubuntu server (which can be converted into a desktop installation), but assume you may have more options with subiquity + autoinstall (via curtin)
[19:40] <Beherit> BluesKaj: Hi !
[19:40] <arraybolt3[m]> Beherit: 👋
[19:41] <Beherit> hi array!
[19:41] <Beherit> first signs of life! hah!
[19:41] <arraybolt3[m]> Beherit: Anything we can help you with?
[19:41] <Beherit> been years since i actually used the MIRC , just logged in as an opportunity when i was sorting out thunderbird.
[19:42] <Beherit> no arraybolt, thanks. just saying hi.
[19:42] <arraybolt3[m]> Nice. If you ever run into anything that goes wrong with your Ubuntu system, feel free to ask for help here. Also, if you're interested in general conversation, we have #ubuntu-offtopic:libera.chat.
[19:43] <Beherit> ah Thank you!!
[20:08] <murmel> arraybolt3[m]: may I pm you?
[20:08] <arraybolt3[m]> murmel: Yeah, sure. Matrix preferred, IRC will work too but I might be slow.
[20:57] <murmel> is there a reason why ubuntu removes the rootless install script from docker.io?
[20:57] <murmel> can't find anything about it
[20:58] <de-facto> why is ctrl alt backspace not killing Xorg in Ubuntu?
[21:00] <leftyfb> de-facto: pretty sure that was removed years ago
[21:01] <de-facto> why would one remove such a useful thing?
[21:01] <de-facto> gnome shell freezes from time to time, so it would be useful to be able to kill it
[21:02] <leftyfb> de-facto: you should be focusing more on the freezes and less the workaround
[21:02] <murmel> yeah it's definitely not normal that gnome freezes
[21:03] <de-facto> it never was stable for me, so i got used to it freezing from time to time
[21:04] <de-facto> same with pulseaudio, it just corrupts from time to time, so killing it solves the issue with both
[21:05] <de-facto> was Ctrl Alt Backspace completely removed or just diabled?
[21:06] <leftyfb> de-facto: a quick google search shows it was "disabled" 13 years ago https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/tech-tip-restore-ctrl-alt-backspace-ubuntu
[21:07] <gordonjcp> yeah
[21:07] <gordonjcp> ctrl-alt-backspace to "zap" X hasn't been a thing for years
[21:08] <leftyfb> de-facto: are you running Ubuntu 20.04 or 22.04 and gnome is still freezing for you?
[21:08] <de-facto> 22.04
[21:09] <leftyfb> de-facto: is gnome freezing up on you?
[21:09] <de-facto> yeah its freezing from time to time
[21:09] <leftyfb> de-facto: is this a fresh install of ubuntu or have you been upgrading since 2009?
[21:10] <de-facto> fresh
[21:10] <leftyfb> de-facto: ok, maybe file a bug or ask someone here for help troubleshooting the issue
[21:10] <de-facto> i just assumed that gnome shell is not really stable yet
[21:10] <de-facto> yeah i just want ctrl alt backspace
[21:10] <de-facto> i dont want to dig into Xorg, thats too crazy
[21:11] <de-facto> they disabled it because users could "accidentally trigger it" lol
[21:11] <de-facto> aha, hmm
[21:11] <leftyfb> de-facto: you'll probably need to dig into "Xorg" (not the default unless you have Nvidia) in order to write the code back in to give you your workaround for a problem you aren't interested in getting resolved
[21:12] <leftyfb> btw, gnome shell was released 11 years ago
[21:13] <de-facto> yeah still not stable for me, sorry, but its how it is
[21:16] <leftyfb> de-facto: your issues could be related to bad memory, cpu, gpu, overheating, wrong drivers installed, faulty software installed or lack of resources. Since you don't know or are interested in resolving the issue, it's not yet valid to say gnome shell isn't stable
[21:20] <de-facto> all problems observed could be caused by such generic implied causes, to me gnome shell freezes from time to time, so thats an observation, hence it is not stable for me, what is the cause? i do not know, but i want to be able to kill it when it freezes
[21:20] <leftyfb> de-facto: wouldn't you prefer it not happen?
[21:21] <de-facto> yes i can buy a new pc, debug xorg on both my old and the new pc and compare, or i just could kill it and continue with what i do
[21:24] <de-facto> found it
[21:24] <de-facto> gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.input-sources xkb-options "['terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp']"
[21:36] <de-facto> nice it works, should be enabled by default in my opinion, very useful and widely known
[21:43] <ogra> given it has been disabled in most distros a decade and more ago, i wonder if it is actually still known at all by general users
[22:01] <Zenexer> I'm seeing that 22.04.1 was delayed until Aug 11.  However, all of my systems seem to already be on 22.04.1.  Anyone know what that's about?
[22:04] <leftyfb> Zenexer: only the 22.04.1 image releases have been delayed. You are running 22.04.1
[22:04] <Zenexer> Got it.  Does that have anything to do with apt dist-upgrade holding back python3-distupgrade and ubuntu-release-upgrader-core?
[22:05] <leftyfb> no
[22:05] <leftyfb> well, not sure about the last package
[22:05] <Zenexer> Hmm
[22:05] <leftyfb> well, maybe both
[22:06] <leftyfb> it's only a couple more days. Those shouldn't affect you though
[22:06] <Zenexer> I'm getting weird apt behavior.  The repos all seemed to be down for about 15 minutes, and now that they're back, apt list --upgradable shows both of those packages are ready to upgrade, but dist-upgrade doesn't want to go through with it unless I explicitly pass those two packages as args.
[22:06] <oerheks> the fix is to install ubuntu-release-upgrader-core, it pulls in the other 2 ?
[22:06] <Zenexer> Yeah, just making sure I'm not going to mess anything up by upgrading (or not upgrading)
[22:07] <leftyfb> you could just wait a couple days if you want to be safe
[22:07] <Zenexer> Seems like any systems that ran apt update shortly prior to the outage are affected, whereas any systems that waited until after are able to upgrade without issue.  I don't think I've ever seen that before.
[22:08] <oerheks> i had that issue too, the single package install fixed it
[22:09] <Zenexer> Yeah, it seems to be upgrading fine on other systems, so I just went ahead and upgraded.  Guess I'll just ignore it.
[22:09] <leftyfb> Zenexer: I just ran a full-upgrade, both of those packages installed just fine but snapd was held back. Which I'm ok with just leaving till it's not held back anymorw
[22:18] <oerheks> oh, it is something about phased updates .. i am not one of them
[22:18] <oerheks> https://askubuntu.com/questions/1420969/how-to-force-packages-that-have-been-kept-back-to-be-installed-as-automat/1421130#1421130
[22:35] <PReTeXTATo> Canonical has plans to launch Ubuntu for VisionFive Board V1 Model?
[22:42] <sarnold> heh, the release notes of the next release are mighty thin still https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/kinetic-kudu-release-notes/27976
[22:47] <ogra> PReTeXTATo, https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-on-the-visionfive-and-the-nezha-boards/29858
[22:52] <PReTeXTATo> THanKs.
[23:01] <junebug> I'm trying to get this crontab to run on reboot but no luck: reboot /home/myhome/bin/disable_touchscreen && echo "disabled touchscreen" >> /home/myhome/startup
[23:01] <junebug> using @reboot
[23:02] <sarnold> junebug: try: namei -l /home/myhome/bin/disable_touG
[23:03] <junebug> sarnold, you mean @reboot myname -l /my/command?
[23:03] <sarnold> junebug: no, run namei -l /home/myhome/bin/disable_touG   at a shell prompt right now -- my guess is that file, or a directory above it, has incorrect permissions
[23:03] <junebug> Oh ok
[23:04] <junebug> X for everyone
[23:05] <junebug> I'm on Ubuntu 20.04.4 LTS if that helps
[23:07] <sarnold> murmel: hey! I finally got around to reading that https://trstringer.com/simple-vs-oneshot-systemd-service/ article and it nails *exactly* why I picked oneshot rather than simple! the follow-up units wait until the oneshot finishes before they start
[23:07] <sarnold> junebug: and can the user in question also read the script?
[23:07] <junebug> yes
[23:08] <junebug> user writing the crontab -e is me
[23:08] <junebug> I have rx on all directories and rwx on the files
[23:08] <sarnold> junebug: okay.. the next usual problem with cronjobs is the PATH is quite a bit more restricted than usual -- take a look at the script and make sure that the shebang line is correct, make sure that every single executable that is used is in /bin or /usr/bin  or has an explicit path
[23:11] <junebug> sarnold, yes every executable in the script is in the /bin  or /usr/bin directory
[23:13] <sarnold> junebug: hmm, okay, a good challenge then :) check your mail? cron mails stderr output, maybe you've got a friendly error message saved in a spool file
[23:14] <junebug> sarnold, what is the command to check cron mail?
[23:14] <sarnold> junebug: it depends upon your system's email configuration
[23:15] <sarnold> junebug: /var/spool/mail/junebug maybe? or if you've got a working mail server on the system, maybe it goes somewhere else..
[23:15] <junebug> I don't use email...
[23:16] <junebug> I just saw this in the cron.d folder. I think it's an example:
[23:16] <junebug> SHELL=/bin/sh
[23:16] <junebug> PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin
[23:16] <junebug> 8 0 * * *   root    test -x /etc/cron.daily/popularity-contest && /etc/cron.daily/popularity-contest --crond
[23:16] <junebug> Do I need to set the shell and the user?
[23:21] <junebug> nah that didn't work
[23:24] <sarnold> junebug: it depends upon the specific crontab -- the "system" crontabs often do require a user name
[23:25] <junebug> man cron reveals my system is using cron 8. I do a /reboot and don't find reboot anywhere in the manual
[23:26] <junebug> But I do see @reboot in man crontab which is crontab 5
[23:27] <sarnold> are you sure you're checking the right section? ± MANPAGER=cat man 5 crontab | grep reboot
[23:27] <sarnold>               @reboot        Run once, at startup.
[23:27] <junebug> Yeah I see it in crontab but not cron
[23:28] <junebug> So here's the thing
[23:28] <junebug> I know @reboot works
[23:28] <junebug> Because I can do @reboot echo "hello" >> /my/home/somefile
[23:28] <junebug> And it's there
[23:28] <junebug> It just doesn't like the script or how I'm calling the script
[23:29] <sarnold> can you run that script by hand fine?
[23:29] <junebug> Yes
[23:29] <junebug> I run it every time I start up my computer
[23:33] <sarnold> maybe instead of trying to find error output, try redirecting the output to a file? @reboot /home/myhome/bin/disable_touchscreen > /tmp/out 2>&1   ?
[23:33] <junebug> Smart
[23:33] <junebug> let me try that
[23:35] <joke> sarnold: hehe you are everywhere
[23:36] <sarnold> ayup :) heya joke
[23:38] <junebug> sarnold, I see this printed twice: Unable to connect to X server
[23:38] <sarnold> junebug: aha!
[23:39] <junebug> Should I add sleep 120?
[23:40] <sarnold> you'll also need to supply the XAUTHORITY and DISPLAY environment variables to it to connect to the running X. it'd probably be easier to just move the script to an X11 autostart service
[23:40] <sarnold> most desktop environments have an autostart thingy
[23:40] <junebug> ok let me google that
[23:40] <junebug> Thank you


[12:35] <froud> + text releated documents + text getting help (KHelpCenter, Community Support) + start writing organization kuserguide.xml
[12:35] <froud> would like reviews
[12:36] <froud> later, night, night, don't let the bed bugs bite
[01:06] <mdke> evenin all
[01:07] <Burgundavia> salut
[01:09] <squinn> mdke, question
[01:10] <mdke> hello squinn
[01:10] <mdke> shoot
[01:13] <squinn> where's the file
[01:13] <squinn> that has all the "links"
[01:13] <squinn> like %ubuntu = http://ubuntulinux.org
[01:13] <squinn> use.desc i think it's called
[01:13] <mdke> the entities are in libs/global.ent
[01:13] <mdke> e.g. &ubuntu;
[01:14] <squinn> thanks
[01:16] <mdke> np
[01:16] <mdke> squinn, are you working on something at the moment?
[01:17] <mdke> if so, you should submit patches often, even if they are small, because that way if other changes are made to the guide, two people don't edit the same document
[01:18] <squinn> mdke, yes, i'm getting ready to submit a patch
[01:18] <squinn> i'm finishing up a section
[01:19] <mdke> ok, in future though you should patch regularly, so that two people don't work on the same section :)
[01:20] <mdke> squinn, also, always do svn up before making the patch
[01:22] <squinn> mdke, I know. I've been through a few reinstalls.
[01:23] <squinn> mdke, so I've not been so active in docteam. I'm finishing up now..I'm not done with a section, but patching.
[01:23] <mdke> cool thanks for the work
[01:23] <squinn> My svn account is going to canonical now though.
[01:24] <mdke> ok, feel free to come in here to ask questions about how the system works, its normal to have a few things to discover early on
[01:27] <squinn> right, thanks, mdke
[01:27] <squinn> I should 'make ug' right?
[01:27] <mdke> Burgundavia, around still?
[01:27] <Burgundavia> always
[01:28] <mdke> squinn, you can check the doc as xml, using the procedure outlined on the StepbyStepRepository page, or make the html yeah
[01:28] <mdke> Burgundavia, how does one close bugs in malone?
[01:28] <squinn> i did both
[01:28] <squinn> mdke, I've always wondered that [bout Malone]
[01:28] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:28] <mdke> squinn, most important is to use the ./validate.sh script
[01:28] <Burgundavia> you should just be able to do it
[01:28] <squinn> yeah, it found an error...fixed it though
 goes before </sect1> -- must remember that
[01:28] <Burgundavia> which bug?
[01:28] <mdke> Burgundavia, 333
[01:29] <mdke> malone is a really terrible interface right now
[01:29] <mdke> i can't wait for it to improve
[01:30] <Burgundavia> found it
[01:30] <Burgundavia> you have to click on the line that says
[01:31] <Burgundavia> "ubuntu seahorse"
[01:31] <Burgundavia> can I close the bug as fixed?
[01:31] <mdke> np, i've got it
[01:32] <Burgundavia> mpt, ping
[01:32] <Burgundavia> the UI is going to improve, we hope
[01:32] <mdke> i hope so
[01:35] <mdke> Burgundavia, what do you mean by "page page in history" (email)?
[01:35] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:36] <mdke> squinn, cool, will look at patch now! thanks
[01:36] <Burgundavia> I am actually quite well spoken, I just can't write worth a damn
[01:36] <Burgundavia> page moves in history
[01:36] <Burgundavia> to allow easy rollbacks
[01:36] <Burgundavia> WP just introduced it in 1.5
[01:36] <Burgundavia> as there was a vandal they called Willy on Wheels
[01:37] <mdke> page moves as in renames?
[01:37] <Burgundavia> would move pages to things like Wikipedia is Communism
[01:37] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:37] <mdke> agreed
[01:37] <Burgundavia> I wish moin would drop the stupid icons and use text
[01:37] <mdke> which?
[01:37] <Burgundavia> top right corner
[01:38] <Burgundavia> the icons are badly created and don't illustrate what they are supposed to
[01:38] <Burgundavia> and text works just find
[01:38] <Burgundavia> s/fine
[01:39] <mdke> well the UI should be customisable
[01:39] <mdke> do the icons have hover?
[01:39] <Burgundavia> hmm, no idea
[01:39] <Burgundavia> I just figured out by looking at the hyperlinks they were
[01:40] <Burgundavia> you need a good default
[01:40] <Burgundavia> as 90% of users never change the default
[01:40] <mdke> but our wiki doesn't use those icons
[01:40] <Burgundavia> yes it does
[01:41] <Burgundavia> oh
[01:41] <mdke> i don't see em
[01:41] <Burgundavia> udu wiki does
[01:41] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:41] <Burgundavia> why do we have findpage and search?
[01:42] <mdke> yeah udu is basically moin default i think
[01:42] <Burgundavia> get info and show changes should be merged, into history
[01:42] <mdke> yes
[01:42] <mdke> get info is last diff
[01:42] <mdke> show changes are all diffs
[01:42] <mdke> neither expression are very intuitive
[01:42] <mdke> are/is
[01:43] <Burgundavia> there is no need to show the last diff
[01:43] <Burgundavia> just a general history thing
[01:43] <mdke> agreed
[01:43] <Burgundavia> in fact, the default icons are even worse
[01:44] <Burgundavia> 8 small icons in the top corner
[01:45] <Burgundavia> just joined #moin to ask about history stuff
[01:45] <mdke> in the meantime you could ask henrik if he thinks its a good idea to merge the two, he could just do it on our wiki
[01:45] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:46] <Burgundavia> I shall fire another incoherent email to the list about that
[01:46] <mdke> lol
[01:47] <mdke> we have a slight problem
[01:47] <mdke> squinn's patch overlaps with njals
[01:48] <Burgundavia> hmm
[01:49] <Burgundavia> 1. reject both and get them both commit access, so they can fight over it
[01:49] <Burgundavia> 2. rewrite the 2 into a better one
[01:49] <mdke> i'm gonna commit squinns cos there is nothing wrong with it
[01:49] <mdke> then get njal's, which is much more substantial but a bit dodgy, refined a bit more
[01:50] <Burgundavia> another moron who did an "expert" install and is now reporting bugs about it
[02:15] <mdke> hmm
[02:15] <mdke> maybe I should do a breezy install on this computer
[02:17] <Burgundavia> hmm, totem-gstreamer still sucks for non-freee stuff
[02:17] <Burgundavia> too bad
[02:17] <mdke> tricky issue that
[02:17] <mdke> how is breezy these days?
[02:18] <Burgundavia> I have a gdm issue
[02:18] <Burgundavia> but X starts
[02:18] <Burgundavia> I seem to have lost my custom theme
[02:19] <mdke> X starts?
[02:19] <mdke> cool
[02:19] <mdke> with tinkering or without?
[02:19] <Burgundavia> no tinkering
[02:19] <Burgundavia> I have never tinkered with my X server
[02:19] <Burgundavia> no symlinks, no nothing
[02:20] <Burgundavia> that is stupid and gentooish
[02:20] <mdke> well many people have been fixing their symlinks in order to get X working in breezy
[02:20] <mdke> that makes them gentooish?
[02:21] <Burgundavia> then when daniels releases a fixed version, the symlinked stuff usually breaks
[02:21] <mdke> sure
[02:21] <mdke> but half the devs have been doing it
[02:21] <mdke> include daniels himself probably ;)
[02:22] <Burgundavia> hmm, I doubt it
[02:23] <Burgundavia> the reason they break is that the package will not overwrite the symlink with the correct file
[02:23] <Burgundavia> as it it has been created by a user
[02:23] <mdke> yeah
[02:23] <mdke> but earlier it broke regardless of that
[02:23] <mdke> anyway, now its fixed
[02:23] <Burgundavia> as we get closer to July 7th, there is likely to be less breakage
[02:24] <mdke> what is that date?
[02:24] <Burgundavia> Upstream Version Freeze
[02:24] <mdke> thats pretty early
[02:24] <mdke> is that earlier than for hoary?
[02:25] <Burgundavia> nope
[02:25] <Burgundavia> actually, one week
[02:25] <Burgundavia> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseSchedule
[03:02] <squinn> mdke, i had to check that serpentine was official cd burning software
[03:02] <squinn> i did that with #ubuntu-devel first, and it is serpentine, not nautilus [that's data cd burning]
[03:02] <mdke> squinn, yeah you did the right thing to write that as a comment
[03:05] <Burgundavia> serpentine is the official, afaik
[03:06] <Burgundavia> it is already in main
[03:06] <squinn> It is, Burgundavia.
[03:06] <squinn> According to #ubuntu-devel
[03:06] <squinn> Burgundavia, do you think that after the UVF, it'd be safer to upgrade to Breezy?
[03:07] <Burgundavia> might be
[03:07] <Burgundavia> the major piece of breakage is X
[03:07] <Burgundavia> and I have no idea what the schedule for that is
[03:07] <squinn> Burgundavia, let me center Breezy discussion on docteam.
[03:08] <squinn> There is a crucial release of gnome-doc-utils coming asap, according to main developer upstream
[03:08] <squinn> The package itself is in Breezy, but the older version. After UVF, the new version can't come in, or can it?
[03:09] <Burgundavia> docs are different
[03:09] <Burgundavia> they go in very late
[03:11] <squinn> ok
[03:11] <squinn> this is my first [heh]  release
[03:11] <squinn> in this position
[03:11] <squinn> i was here for hoary...left for gentoo..came back
[04:53] <mpt> Burgundavia: pong
[04:54] <mpt> Burgundavia: I just happened to be editing [[Iran] ]  a couple of days ago, and went on to the Talk page, and found you there
[05:25] <mpt> jdub: ping
[07:47] <Burgundavia> mpt, I am quite active on Wikipedia
[07:48] <Burgundavia> mpt, I was pinging you regarding the malone interface
[07:48] <Burgundavia> is there a timeline for that changing?
[07:48] <mpt> Not a public one
[07:48] <mpt> Changing to what?
[07:49] <Burgundavia> the bug editing thing
[07:49] <Burgundavia> where you get different screens by clicking in different places
[07:50] <mpt> could you be a *little* more specific?
[07:50] <mpt> :-)
[07:50] <Burgundavia> sorry
[07:50] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:51] <Burgundavia> if I click on edit bugs in the portlet on the left, I get a different page then if I click on the link "ubuntu PACKAGENAME"
[07:51] <Burgundavia> I understand about the many bugs/one package thing
[07:51] <mpt> You mean, one bug, many packages?
[07:52] <Burgundavia> ya
[07:52] <mpt> Burgundavia: By "Edit bugs in the portlet on the left" do you mean "Edit Bug Details" in the portlet on the right?
[07:52] <Burgundavia> yes, sorry
[07:52] <Burgundavia> is late here
[07:53] <mpt> heh
[07:54] <Burgundavia> the iran thing was probably someone asking on #wikipedia for support
[07:54] <mpt> Well, those pages are pages I'm not allowed to change at the moment
[07:55] <mpt> So there's not much I can do about it, unfortunately
[07:55] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:56] <mpt> If you have *specific* suggestions on how to fix it, please do report them
[07:56] <Burgundavia> on another note, did you see my latest blog
[07:56] <Burgundavia> I am trying to think of a good way to do that
[07:57] <mpt> Your link to Katimavik is broken
[07:57] <Burgundavia> ?
[07:57] <Burgundavia> hmm
[07:57] <Burgundavia> oops
[07:58] <mpt> I like the idea
[07:58] <Burgundavia> the Eye of Gnome maintainer was interested as well
[07:58] <Burgundavia> it wouldn't take too much effort to hack eog and gimp to do that
[07:59] <Burgundavia> see how it goes
[07:59] <mpt> with the possible exception of the Manage button
[07:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:59] <Burgundavia> that would have to come later
[07:59] <mpt> just as you'd like to see every viewer have an integrated Edit interface
[08:00] <mpt> I'd like to see a collection manager rather than a file manager
[08:00] <Burgundavia> I had the same thought
[08:00] <Burgundavia> that the manage stuff should actually be part of the file manager
[08:01] <Burgundavia> the idea was spawned by that 3.0 mockup and long thread about making evince view everything by default/the divide between editors and viewers
[08:01] <Burgundavia> s/editors/editers
[08:01] <Burgundavia> hmm
[08:01] <Burgundavia> right
[08:01] <mpt> yah
[08:02] <Burgundavia> that is something that NO other desktop could do
[08:02] <Burgundavia> well, maybe KDE could do it
[08:02] <Burgundavia> but not OS X and Windows
[08:02] <mpt> Often I'm playing a movie or an audio file and thinking "hmm, I wish I could crop it"
[08:02] <mpt> I understand Quicktime Pro can do it
[08:02] <mpt> but the normal player can't
[08:03] <mpt> and iTunes can sorta kinda crop audio, but it forgets the cropping whenever I reimport the music, because it's keeping the info in its own database instead of in metadata attached to the file itself
[08:03] <Burgundavia> what do you think of the interface of totem vs. idvd?
[08:04] <mpt> I haven't used iDVD
[08:04] <mpt> because I don't have any DVDs
[08:04] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:04] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:04] <Burgundavia> I have used idvd on my gf's laptop and it sucks compared to totem
[08:05] <mpt> It's rather bothersome that (a) Totem "Movie Player" (sic) is the default program for audio files, and (b) that results in visualization effects that I can't turn off
[08:05] <Burgundavia> yes, those are annoying
[08:05] <Burgundavia> this is funny "  Manila faithful flock to bury Sin" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4628957.stm
[08:05] <mpt> All the recent files in its "Movie" (sic) menu are Ogg Vorbis
[08:07] <Burgundavia> lol
[08:09] <Burgundavia> that audio issue is due to upstream not having a good media player
[08:09] <Burgundavia> sonance is looking quite nice
[08:09] <Burgundavia> very similar to iTunes
[08:10] <mpt> crap, I need a yellow fever vaccination
[08:10] <Burgundavia> to go where?
[08:10] <mpt> Brazil
[08:10] <Burgundavia> ah, for Launchpad stuff
[08:11] <mpt> because my flights between South Africa and New York happened to stop in Senegal
[08:11] <Burgundavia> salut froud
[08:12] <froud> African Greetings
[08:12] <Burgundavia> mpt, regarding HelpfulHelp, is there movement in the Breezy timeline and how can that be helped along?
[08:13] <mpt> Well, yelp needs to be hacked so that it opens a particular "book" rather than opening the ToC
[08:13] <mpt> I need to talk to shaunm about that
[08:13] <Burgundavia> mpt, he is in gnome-hackers on irc.gimp.net right now
[08:14] <mpt> I just haven't had time for much of it yet
[08:14] <mpt> but I have to go right now
[08:14] <mpt> coz my sister's picking me up
[08:14] <mpt> bbl
[08:14] <Burgundavia> cya
[11:37] <Njal> lo
[11:37] <mdke> hi Njal
[11:37] <mdke> :)
[11:37] <mdke> got my email?
[11:37] <Njal> yeah, im just a little confused on how the system works
[11:37] <Njal> nothing big really
[11:37] <Njal> just wanna make sure i get it right
[11:39] <mdke> yeah its confusing because since you made your patch, the file has been edited
[11:39] <Njal> think is i have done the svn up and all my work is still there
[11:39] <mdke> yeah
[11:40] <mdke> ok let's do this
[11:40] <mdke> you got your patch safe?
[11:40] <Njal> the .diff file?
[11:40] <mdke> yes
[11:40] <mdke> just making sure I have a copy in case
[11:40] <Njal> yes i have my patch then
[11:40] <mdke> ok
[11:41] <mdke> you can delete the file userguide.xml and then restore it doing svn up
[11:41] <Njal> got it now
[11:42] <mdke> ok now apply your patch using patch < nameofpatch
[11:42] <Njal> neil@ubuntu:~/ubuntu-doc/gnome/userguide/C $ patch < userguide.xml.diff
[11:43] <Njal> patching file userguide.xml
[11:43] <Njal> Hunk #2 FAILED at 974.
[11:43] <Njal> Hunk #3 succeeded at 1427 (offset 5 lines).
[11:43] <Njal> 1 out of 3 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file userguide.xml.rej
[11:43] <mdke> ok check out that file userguide.xml.rej, see what is in it
[11:43] <mdke> it might be the audio burning section
[11:44] <Njal> both the audio CD bit and the data CD bit
[11:45] <mdke> yeah that is probably because that section changes since you made your patch
[11:45] <mdke> ok now you should work on userguide.xml, check that everything has been put in the right place and so on
[11:46] <mdke> if you want, you can add things to the burning section
[11:46] <mdke> although note that nautilus does not do audio burning
[11:46] <Njal> is it a program integrated with nautilus then?
[11:47] <mdke> there is a program shipped with breezy to do audio burning
[11:47] <mdke> called serpentine
[11:47] <Njal> ah
[11:47] <Njal> then my work on those sections is obsolete then
[11:47] <Njal> since i am not running breezy and can't until the 4th or 5th of next month
[11:48] <mdke> you can make a note that it needs revising for breezy
[11:49] <mdke> if you start to write sections that have nothing right now, that is always useful
[11:50] <Njal> Well do you know if nautilus will still have that built in burning directory? Well it's not really up to Ubuntu is it it's gnome's baby
[11:50] <mdke> i'm sure nautilus-cd-burner will continue to exist
[11:50] <mdke> but Ubuntu makes decisions about what software to ship independently of gnome
[11:51] <mdke> personally I didn't know nautilus-cd-burner did audio
[11:51] <mdke> i haven't tried it
[11:52] <Njal> I think it does, well i can include my section and if it's still there in breezy to a degree it'll still be relevent
[11:52] <mdke> the thing is, it conflicts with the section already there which speaks of serpentine, and the author said that he asked in #ubuntu-devel to ensure that this was correct
[11:54] <Njal> I'll not contiune with the audio then, since serpentine will be used, should i add the bit about data CD's?
[11:54] <mdke> yeah definitely
[11:54] <Njal> kk
[11:54] <mdke> :)
[11:55] <mdke> thanks for that work
[11:55] <mdke> after you've checked that everything is in the right place, patch and resend
[11:56] <Njal> also i did some work on the command line section, is that any good, im thinking like the top ten most useful commands to remember or the like, i might need some help on that since some commands i use i don't actually know what some of the argument's stand for etc
[11:57] <mdke> yeah that is a cool section
[11:57] <mdke> things like "ls" "cd" and so on
[11:58] <mdke> a basic guide
[11:58] <mdke> maybe there is some material on the wiki
[11:58] <Njal> right i wasn't sure if i should have shown how to do stuff like that but i will do basic stuff like how to create a directory etc
[11:59] <Njal> anyway i will patch this then work on the command lin
[11:59] <Njal> line
[11:59] <mdke> awesome
[12:05] <Njal> oh finally made the patch
[12:12] <Njal> And submitted
[12:13] <mdke> great thanks!
[12:13] <Njal> np
[12:14] <mdke> applying
[12:15] <Njal> cool thanks
[12:16] <mdke> btw did you use bluefish?
[12:17] <Njal> no i found GEdit's spell checker
[12:17] <mdke> that works too
[12:17] <mdke> i am in love with bluefish
[12:17] <mdke> it will add tags for you
[12:17] <Njal> Personally i would have prefered NVU but it wouldn't open the xml file
[12:19] <Njal> so, if you don't mind me asking, what do you folks do? Apart from write ubuntu documentation?
[12:20] <mdke> in life?
[12:20] <mdke> most are in computing
[12:20] <mdke> i'm a lawyer
[12:21] <mdke> just finished law school
[12:21] <Njal> wow.  Or has someone with too much spare time made them up?
[12:41] <mdke> could be real i guess
[12:42] <Njal> I've always wondered
[01:04] <rob^> just a quick question, people writing the Userguide, are you using Breezy now?
[01:04] <mdke> some are
[01:05] <rob^> much difference between it and hoary?
[01:05] <rob^> apart from it being up to date
[01:05] <mdke> i don't know, i haven't tried it
[01:05] <mdke> its only recently started working
[01:05] <rob^> oh
[01:06] <rob^> just thinking it might be a good idea if I'm going to contribute to it
[01:06] <mdke> yeah i agree
[01:06] <rob^> oh well, time for a dist-upgrade :)
[01:07] <mdke> save your things
[01:07] <rob^> ah, yeah
[01:07] <mdke> i will probably make a separate install for breezy
[01:07] <mdke> keep my hoary
[01:07] <rob^> I would to if I had a bigger hard drive
[01:07] <mdke> how big is it?
[01:07] <rob^> 40gig
[01:07] <mdke> twice the size of mine ;)
[01:08] <rob^> :)
[01:08] <rob^> most of it is a /home partition
[01:08] <rob^> still left from my Debian install infact
[01:12] <mdke> gah
[01:12] <mdke> evolution keeps crashing on me
[01:16] <rob^> bah
[01:16] <rob^> firefox is nicer
[01:16] <rob^> doh
[01:16] <rob^> I ment thunderbird
[01:16] <mdke> yeah
[01:16] <mdke> what do you use for a calendar?
[01:17] <rob^> just click on the clock on the top right of your screen
[01:17] <rob^> its got a drop down one
[01:17] <mdke> yes, that is evolution ;)
[01:17] <rob^> well, thats the only thing I use it for
[01:18] <mdke> oh right
[01:18] <rob^> or just use date
[01:18] <mdke> appointments and stuff?
[01:24] <mdke> rob^, this is one of the good things about using evolution with Ubuntu: you get your appointments in the drop down menu: http://www.mdke.org/images/calendar.png
[01:26] <rob^> sounds like a good idea, I normally just use the gnome todo applet
[01:26] <rob^> might have a look however
[01:26] <rob^> ah that is pretty good actually
[01:27] <rob^> dam netsplit
[02:18] <froud> jjesse: ping
[02:18] <jjesse> froud pong
[02:19] <froud> profiling
[02:19] <jjesse> yes
[02:19] <froud> the only case where I have implimented it is in the generic instal guide
[02:19] <froud> The similarity between gnome and kde is because much stuff was based on the gnome work
[02:20] <froud> it makes sense to profile, if, these common parts remain the same
[02:20] <froud> however, we are not required to make it as such
[02:20] <jjesse> are all the documents going to contain the preface, conventions used etc
[02:20] <jjesse> cause it would be silly to be copying and pasting everything
[02:20] <froud> Well it should use an XInclude
[02:21] <froud> kuserguide is setup for support to XInclude/XPointer
[02:21] <froud> conventions are a common object
[02:21] <froud> we only have a single xml instance for that
[02:22] <froud> Preface can change between books
[02:22] <froud> so it is not a common object in entire
[02:22] <froud> rather parts such as conventions would be common objects
[02:22] <jjesse> ok
[02:22] <froud> it is debate able whether or not the about stuff should be common
[02:23] <froud> for you and I profilig is not an issue, but for newbies, mdke has point
[02:24] <froud> the more advance our feature set use of docbook is, the more a newbie must learn
[02:24] <froud> only solution is that the newbie will get support from us and that assumes a willingness to learn
[02:25] <froud> like when you did your learning on xslt
[02:25] <froud> catch 22 I'm afraid
[02:25] <froud> on the oneside profiling can save hours of work
[02:25] <froud> on the other it raises the barrier to entery
[02:26] <rob^> being a newbie, i found it a pain initally but its not that hard
[02:26] <rob^> its very obvious actually
[02:26] <jjesse> agreed rob^
[02:27] <froud> glad you find it easy. I think mdke would like to discuss it and hear from people before using it
[02:27] <rob^> ok then
[02:27] <froud> what I can say, is that it is usual for KDE to ship HTML
[02:28] <froud> therefore there is a lot more scope for advanced feature use in the kde/ section of the repos
[02:28] <froud> you will notice that the kuserguide has a glossary and index section
[02:28] <froud> and uses XInclude
[02:28] <jjesse> yes i did
[02:29] <froud> the aboutkubuntu document is actually an XInclude from the aboutkubuntu/C/ directory
[02:30] <froud> another feature of the KDE docs is that they will utilize the help:/ kio-slave
[02:30] <froud> the CSS and refs to KDE docs are setup using this IO-SLAVE
[02:31] <froud> For an example of kio-slave usage see the kquickguide
[02:31] <froud> the application of profiling is KDE docs is not out of the question because KDE ships html
[02:32] <froud> it may be a possability that kde docs can therefore use profiling, it would be especially useful when maintaining versions for i386 and PPC
[02:33] <froud> I also see application for DCOP
[02:33] <froud> but wont go there for enow :-)
[02:35] <froud> jjesse: do you know what peices you want to write yet?
[02:36] <jjesse> froud not yet, but i mean i can work on the preface, but won't it be just copying and pasting from the gnome userguide?
[02:37] <froud> Not if you dont want to. You do what you feel is good for the book. Let the creativity flow, feel free to think outside the box
[02:37] <jjesse> ok i'll work on the preface, i'll attach a <writing> to it like mentioned
[02:37] <froud> btw. I hope you guys are checking my work :-) and will build on it. Please note that I am not attached to the words I write
[02:38] <froud> I changes the patches from gtaylor
[02:38] <froud> you may have noticed
[02:38] <froud> I expanded on them substantially
[02:38] <jjesse> ok
[02:38] <jjesse> likewise i'm not attached to the words i write otherwise i wouldn't be doing it in an open way like this
[02:39] <rob^> I'm attached, I'm just a giving type of person :)
[02:41] <froud> also checkout Related Documents //sect1[@id="sect-related"]
[02:49] <jjesse> froud grin sometimes it seems like all you do all day long is write docs for here :)
[02:49] <jjesse> i wish i had time like that
[03:29] <froud> jjesse: believe me I am doing much more than just writing docs here :-)
[08:25] <froud> http://lnix.net/~froud/ updated
[08:36] <Njal> lo
[08:37] <froud> hi
[08:37] <froud> Njal: nice patch dude
[08:37] <froud> thanks
[08:37] <froud> ;-)
[08:37] <Njal> Not a problem, we're all here to do the same things
[08:38] <froud> sure
[08:38] <Njal> can i ask who had the same GNOME problem as i did? Someone needs the bug report number
[08:39] <uniq> froud: just a question; is there a reason for the big F in 'Free terms' - http://lnix.net/~froud/about-kubuntu/C/index.html - under "The team behind Kubuntu makes the following commitment to its users:" second commitment.
[08:40] <froud> it's not technically correct to write it that way, I guess the author was using some poetic license
[08:40] <froud> I'll patch it
[08:42] <uniq> nice :)
[08:46] <uniq> froud: accesibility -> accessibility on the next line
[08:48] <froud> snap, I just did a spell check and fixed a few
[08:48] <froud> uniq: btw, spelling must be US not UK :-)
[08:48] <uniq> ok.
[08:49] <froud> but you are right that is a mistake
[08:49] <froud> uniq: has there been any decision on KOffice for Kubuntu yet?
[08:50] <uniq> no.. but after the discussion in #ubuntu-meeting i have a feeling oo.o will be selected.
[08:51] <uniq> but no decision were made.
[08:51] <froud> :-)
[08:51] <froud> OK
[08:57] <uniq> " that the Free Software community" and "principles of free software and open source development" - why the difference in capitalization ?
[09:02] <jeffsch> uniq: good question
[09:02] <jeffsch> maybe the author thought that since "Free Software" is used as an adjective,
[09:02] <jeffsch> and "free software" is used as a noun, there should be a difference.
[09:03] <uniq> i have no clue.. it's not my native language. just looks strage to me.
[09:03] <froud> native noun "Free Software
[09:03] <froud> free software non-native
[09:04] <froud> but in reality both could be lower case
[09:04] <froud> ppl wont note the difference :-)
[09:04] <froud> uniq: you're actually quite good at this. want a full time job :-)
[09:04] <jeffsch> froud: by "native" you mean "nominative"?
[09:05] <jeffsch> in any case, this situation is something we should consider for the style guide
[09:05] <uniq> froud: i have a full-sparetime-jobb on kubuntu already. support+some packaging but hey.,. i can sleep less :)
[09:06] <froud> yep participation on FOSS projects leads to sleep deprivation (spelling)
[09:07] <uniq> correct spelling.. says 'dict deprivation' :)
[09:07] <jeffsch> yes, and docteam has brought me many sleepless nights :-)
[09:09] <froud> jeffsch: perhaps use rule that we use lc unless it is a noun
[09:12] <jeffsch> froud: perhaps. there are lots of grey areas there...
[09:12] <froud> jeffsch: that's why I dont want to be the editor ;-)
[09:12] <jeffsch> in editing class we discovered there is much debate between lc an uc in such cases
[09:13] <jeffsch> it boils down to personal preference
[09:13] <froud> I may write all day, but punctuation, spelling and grammar, etc. are my pain
[09:13] <froud> that goodness for editors
[09:13] <jeffsch> yeah. writers don't care much about that stuff. "The editor will catch it..."
[09:14] <froud> yep, and editors love me cause I don't argue about their decisions :-)
[09:14] <uniq> "Kubuntu is KDE, a powerful Free Software graphical " - again this looks strange to me. what was you conclusion?
[09:16] <jeffsch> we're leaning toward lower case at the moment
[09:16] <uniq> "It combines ease of use, contemporary functionality, and outstanding graphical design " - comma?
[09:17] <froud> which the one before the and
[09:17] <jeffsch> you think there's an extra one before the "and"?
[09:17] <uniq> yes?
[09:17] <froud> in this case it is correct
[09:17] <jeffsch> yikes! another gray area
[09:17] <froud> IMHO
[09:17] <jeffsch> a comma before the and is called the "series comma"
[09:17] <froud> Chicago Manual of Style agrees with me
[09:18] <uniq> i compared to " email software, programming languages and tools and of course, several games."
[09:18] <jeffsch> most style guides want the series comma, but others hate it
[09:18] <jeffsch> two comma errors there...
[09:18] <jeffsch> should be no comma after "course"
[09:19] <froud> jeffsch: have you noticed how Chicago and Sunday Times don't agree
[09:19] <jeffsch> nope. but I'm not surprised.
[09:19] <uniq> " In recent times, much work has been done to increase compatibility " comma?
[09:20] <froud> that one is correct IMHO
[09:20] <uniq> ok.
[09:20] <mdke> the doc must be really good if we're worrying about commas
[09:20] <jeffsch> but in recent times would probably be better as Recently,
[09:20] <froud> email software, programming languages, tools, and of course, several games
[09:21] <froud> perhaps
[09:21] <froud> the and  .... and is very American thang
[09:21] <froud> don't like it personally
[09:22] <jeffsch> "programming languages and tools" means "programming languages and programming tools"
[09:22] <froud> Hmm yeah
[09:22] <froud> good point
[09:23] <jeffsch> it's where the serial comma comes in handy :)
[09:23] <froud> mail software, programming languages and tools, and of course, several games.
[09:23] <froud> better?
[09:24] <jeffsch> i still worry about the comma after course. I'll have to look up the rule
[09:24] <froud> uniq: which doc you now on?
[09:25] <uniq> http://lnix.net/~froud/about-kubuntu/C/index.html
[09:25] <uniq> just finished reading it.
[09:27] <uniq> http://lnix.net/~froud/kubuntu-install/C/ch01.html - second sentence -very- long.
[09:28] <froud> agreed
[09:29] <uniq> and the last sentence is long too.
[09:30] <froud> Alternatively, if you do have an operating system installed, that you do not mind erasing and replacing with <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase>
[09:30] <froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>.</para>
[09:30] <froud> sorry
[09:31] <froud> This revision of the book assumes that you will be
[09:31] <froud> 			installing on a computer that does not have another operating system already installed. Alternatively, if you do have an operating system installed, that you do not mind erasing and replacing with <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase>
[09:31] <froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>.</para>
[09:31] <uniq> much better :)
[09:31] <froud> now where was the other sentence?
[09:32] <uniq> the last one in the same chapter.
[09:32] <froud> Furthermore, this revision does not cover all possible permutations
[09:32] <froud> 			of the installation process, but assumes the default options of the
[09:32] <froud> 			installation system.</para>
[09:32] <jeffsch> how about: This document is designed to help you install Kubuntu on a computer that does not already have an operating system. The installation procedure will erase existing operating systems.
[09:32] <froud> jeffsch: nice
[09:33] <uniq> maybe specify that by following the documents instructions..
[09:34] <uniq> The installation procedure won't neccessarily erase existing operating systems.
[09:34] <froud> the default will
This document is designed to help you install <phrase os="gnome"
[09:34] <froud> 				>Ubuntu</phrase>
[09:34] <froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase> on a computer that does not
[09:34] <froud> 			already have an operating system. The installation procedure will
[09:34] <froud> 			erase existing operating systems.</para>
[09:35] <froud> Perhaps the default installation will ...
[09:35] <froud> Or perhaps Following the default installation procedure described here will ...
[09:36] <uniq> " Following the installation procedure described here will"
[09:39] <uniq> http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=305&slide=9 - you get to choose anyway - it's not specified in the installation that erasing everything is the default way.
[09:39] <froud> yes you do get to choose
[09:40] <froud> but if you were to select only the default selections of the install program, no changes, it would format the disk. Perhaps I need to rework this installation for greater flexability
[09:41] <jeffsch> it might not be documented, but erasing everything (at least in Hoary install) is the default
[09:42] <uniq> default as in if you just press enter.. yes.
[09:42] <uniq> but the installer doesn'
[09:42] <jeffsch> scary
[09:42] <froud> jeffsch: when I first wrote it I followed the defaults
[09:42] <uniq> t tell you that erasing everything is the default.
[09:42] <froud> jeffsch: I think I need to reiew this cours eof action
[09:42] <froud> uniq: yes
[09:43] <froud> or perhaps changing the whole approach to the procedure
[09:43] <Burgundavia> the installer is likely to compeletely change for breezy
[09:43] <Burgundavia> so don't write too much right now
[09:43] <uniq> oh.. nice to know. :)
[09:43] <froud> Burgundavia: Graphical Right?
[09:43] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:43] <uniq> then i'll just skip that chapter :)
[09:43] <froud> yeah
[09:43] <Burgundavia> unified live and install cds
[09:43] <froud> uniq: :-)
[09:44] <froud> Huhuh?
[09:44] <froud> that is news
[09:44] <froud> cool idea
[09:44] <uniq> i kinda knew that.. though.. just not thinking.
[09:44] <froud> happens to me all the time, I call it a brain fart
[09:48] <froud> dudes I'm taking an early night today. uniq any other wishes, just post to me or the docteam list
[09:48] <jeffsch> gotta run. bbl
[09:48] <froud> cheers jeffsch
[09:48] <jeffsch> cya
[09:50] <uniq> ok. i will take a break myself. move from sarge -> hoary on my server.
[09:51] <Burgundavia> I wonder how many machines that have migrated debian-->ubuntu
[09:51] <uniq> i've migrated 5 myself :)
[09:52] <Burgundavia> I moved RH 8 --> Warty
[09:52] <jjesse> i moved SUSE -> Warty
[09:53] <jjesse> i hated how long it took to install SUSE
[09:53] <uniq> i belive in love at first sight.. it happend to me with apt-get :)
[10:06] <mdke> unified live and install cd?
[10:07] <mdke> hmm
[10:07] <mdke> will the opencd project stuff be on it?
[10:07] <Burgundavia> I assume so
[10:07] <Burgundavia> I have no idea
[10:08] <Burgundavia> I am just a hot-air producer
[10:08] <mdke> god knows how they will fit it all on
[10:25] <squinn> mdke, hey.
[10:32] <mdke> hi there squinn
[10:32] <squinn> hi mdke.
[10:32] <squinn> I'll be back in a bit, mdke.
[10:33] <mdke> ok
[10:46] <mdke> robitaille, lovely work on IconsPage
[10:47] <robitaille> thanks.  the missing icons were annoying me :)
[10:48] <robitaille> now we just need to scan the other pages for these same icons that point to the old locations.  Shouldn't be too much work...I don't think we use so many icons in that wiki
[10:54] <mdke> robitaille, it will take bloomin ages ;)
[10:54] <mdke> robitaille, but if there are a few of us to share the icons, it will be ok
[10:58] <Burgundavia> ugh
[10:58] <Burgundavia> I hate our wiki
[10:58] <Burgundavia> it like using windows
[10:58] <Burgundavia> it is
[10:58] <mdke> don't make me kick you
[10:58] <robitaille> the few icons I searched for last nigh only came back with 1-2 hits each.  The most hits were from the WikiGardening page (probably obsolete), and some of the tests for possible replacement to the frontpage (are still pushging this?)
[10:58] <mdke> blasphemy
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it is!
[10:59] <robitaille> I'll be back a while....meeting at work
[10:59] <mdke> robitaille, you should try the common icons
[10:59] <mdke> later
[10:59] <mdke> Burgundavia, c'mon dude
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it gets the job done, but it is very painful to do anything in
[10:59] <mdke> works good here
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it works
[10:59] <Burgundavia> it is not elegant
[11:00] <Burgundavia> it is little polish items that bother me
[11:00] <Burgundavia> better tables support and categories and watchlists
[11:01] <mdke> Burgundavia, you're just spoilt!
[11:01] <mdke> put up with it man
[11:01] <Burgundavia> I am
[11:01] <Burgundavia> if you say I am spoilt, I am going to go back and use windows
[11:01] <mdke> lol
[11:01] <mdke> go ahead
[11:01] <mdke> you'll feel the pain
[11:02] <Burgundavia> tell me, why is there no category:documentation
[11:02] <Burgundavia> with sub categories like Windows Interop and Media and stuff?
[11:02] <Burgundavia> and no templates
[11:02] <mdke> Burgundavia, you have to make categories for them to exist
[11:02] <mdke> no one has made documentation yet
[11:03] <Burgundavia> can add the category to a page and create it from there?
[11:03] <Burgundavia> ie
[11:03] <Burgundavia> on wp, I can add [[Category:Airports of Blah] ]  and if it doesn't exist, it makes it a red link
[11:03] <Burgundavia> I can then click on the red link and make the category
[11:04] <Burgundavia> oh, and the difference between a page and non-page link to too small
[11:04] <mdke> Burgundavia, yeah same thing, write CategoryDocumentation in a page, then click on it and make the categorypage
[11:05] <Burgundavia> can I have subcategories?
[11:06] <mdke> describe the behaviour you want
[11:06] <Burgundavia> what do you think about dropping CamelCase on our wiki?
[11:06] <mdke> i like the easy linking of CamelCase
[11:07] <Burgundavia> I like [[link] ]
[11:07] <mdke> but its not as well implemented on this wiki as the old one
[11:07] <Burgundavia> I find camelcase makes reading hard and is non-intutive
[11:07] <mdke> Burgundavia, in zwiki if you renamed a page, it renamed all the links to it, so CamelCase was necessary for that
[11:07] <mdke> WP doesn't do that, so [[link] ]  works
[11:07] <mdke> Moin doesn't do it either
[11:07] <Burgundavia> if you move a page in WP
[11:08] <Burgundavia> a redirect is created
[11:08] <mdke> correct
[11:08] <Burgundavia> which works fine
[11:08] <mdke> that's also the solution they are considering in Moin
[11:08] <mdke> but its not as clean as autoupdating links
[11:08] <Burgundavia> mediawiki has a "what links here" functionality
[11:09] <Burgundavia> the issue with that is the sometimes you can have a link like [[foo|bar] ]
[11:09] <mdke> all wikis do
[11:09] <Burgundavia> where you see "blah blah bar blah" but the link is to foo
[11:10] <Burgundavia> the other issue with camelcase is the making of links you don't want to have as links
[11:11] <mdke> yes
[11:11] <mdke> but that has the advantage that you can easily create such pages
[11:11] <Burgundavia> look at that --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
[11:11] <Burgundavia> and try to imagine it as camelcase
[11:11] <Burgundavia> it would be an unreadable mess
[11:11] <mdke> yes
[11:11] <mdke> you don't HAVE to have CamelCase in our wiki
[11:12] <mdke> why don't you just make links without?
[11:12] <mdke> ["link"]
[11:12] <Burgundavia> if we have half and half, we get into the mess that we had earlier
[11:12] <mdke> hmm
[11:12] <Burgundavia> with rst and moin and blah being supported
[11:12] <Burgundavia> actually, WP still supports CamelCase
[11:12] <mdke> well thats a bad comparison
[11:13] <mdke> but i see your point to a certain extent
[11:13] <Burgundavia> our language is designed to have Capital letters At the End of sentEnces
[11:13] <Burgundavia> s/end/Beginning
[11:13] <mdke> lol
[11:14] <Burgundavia> See hOw muCH harDer thiS iS To Read?
[11:14] <mdke> harder, but its l3tt
[11:14] <Burgundavia> that is why CamelCase sucks
[11:14] <mdke> 33
[11:14] <Burgundavia> IT IS ALSO WHY THIS IS ALSO MUCH HARDER TO READ
[11:14] <Burgundavia> basically, our brain does not grok CamelCase easily
[11:15] <mdke> heh
[11:15] <Burgundavia> that being said, would you support a change away from CamelCase?
[11:15] <Burgundavia> all the pages would be moved
[11:15] <Burgundavia> links would be made explicit
[11:15] <Burgundavia> I would prefer [[] ] , to conform with mediawiki
[11:15] <mdke> I don't think its worth the hassle
[11:16] <Burgundavia> I do
[11:16] <mdke> in WP is it worth it because there are SO many links
[11:16] <mdke> making it hard to read otherwise
[11:16] <Burgundavia> documentation is very similar to encyclopedia articles
[11:16] <mdke> but i don't see the problem with ours, and it would be more work which wouldn't be justified IMO
[11:16] <Burgundavia> it is not hard to do
[11:16] <mdke> Burgundavia, yes but wikipedia articles LINK a lot
[11:16] <Burgundavia> so can ours
[11:17] <Burgundavia> there is no reason for ours not to
[11:17] <mdke> its not necessary
[11:17] <mdke> in the encyclopedia, linking is very cool
[11:17] <Burgundavia> our wiki is almost impossible to navigate currently
[11:17] <Burgundavia> unless you know the exact page you are going to
[11:17] <mdke> it needs work
[11:17] <mdke> and better linking and categories
[11:17] <Burgundavia> this is part of that work
[11:17] <mdke> but there is always the search
[11:18] <Burgundavia> right
[11:18] <Burgundavia> more links make it harder to read
[11:18] <Burgundavia> as per the CamelCase stuff I just told you about
[11:18] <Burgundavia> but we need more links
[11:18] <mdke> yes, but not necessarily all over paragraphs like in WP
[11:19] <mdke> anyway there is nothing to stop you starting dialogue about it on the ML
[11:19] <mdke> its an interesting question
[11:19] <Burgundavia> I think I will
[11:21] <mdke> actually sometimes I feel that there is too much linking on WP
[11:21] <mdke> that also makes things less easy to read
[11:21] <Burgundavia> I have a link for you
[11:21] <Burgundavia> just a sec
[11:21] <mdke> at risk of making you angry ;)
[11:22] <Burgundavia> I have a funny link for you
[11:23] <squinn> mdke, yesterdays patch will be the last one i send.
[11:23] <mdke> squinn, good
[11:24] <mdke> you have commit access?
[11:25] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DeKalb-Peachtree_Airport&diff=prev&oldid=12544766
[11:25] <squinn> mdke, working on getting it now
[11:25] <mdke> cool
[11:25] <squinn> a bit of a problem with pgp
[11:26] <mdke> squinn, we can help. So that is not why you said that the patch was your last?
[11:26] <mdke> Burgundavia, :)
[11:27] <mdke> oh that's your edit!
[11:27] <mdke> haha
[11:27] <Burgundavia> my edit is the removal
[11:27] <mdke> yeah
[11:30] <Burgundavia> well, I got my first vote for support
[11:31] <mdke> Burgundavia, what is that?
[11:32] <squinn> mdke, that is
[11:32] <squinn> i'm talking to guy-in-charge about pgp
[11:32] <squinn> its why he cant create pgp yet
[11:32] <squinn> er commit account*
[11:32] <mdke> squinn, you can still make patches!
[11:32] <mdke> squinn, we encourage you to work on the docs
[11:33] <squinn> i know
[11:33] <squinn> but my commit account should be ready within the hour
[11:34] <mdke> well then we look forward to seeing your work
[11:34] <squinn> yep yep
[11:34] <Burgundavia> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/NameSpaces
[11:34] <Burgundavia> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/Templates
[11:37] <Burgundavia> can I have subcategories?
[11:37] <Burgundavia> can CategoryWindowsDoc be a category of Documentation?
[11:47] <Burgundavia> too quiet
[11:47] <Burgundavia> more debate
[11:47] <Burgundavia> dogs vs cats
[11:48] <Burgundavia> rofl
[11:50] <mdke> wiki bugs?
[11:50] <mdke> i like cats
[11:50] <mdke> dogs smell and are hairy
[11:51] <Burgundavia> no, bug on anything
[11:53] <robitaille> I only have a few still open.  I really need to get my Breezy partition working again and then I'll be back in the thick of it.
[11:55] <Burgundavia> some of mine are truly bluesky
[11:56] <squinn> robitaille, how much did you partition for breezy?
[11:57] <robitaille> 10gb.  I have a 30gb at home...6 for Win98, 10 for Hoary and 10 for Breezy. (the rest are shared stuff between the various OSes)
[11:57] <squinn> ah oky
[11:58] <mdke> i might stick a breezy partition on
[11:58] <mdke> 5gig enough?
[12:00] <robitaille> 5 should work...mine with a very empty home directory is at 3.1gb
[12:00] <Burgundavia> I prefer the title Hot Air Producer, myself
[12:00] <mdke> Burgundavia, i was just being polite
[12:00] <robitaille> Maybe Ubuntu needs a "Contributor of the Month"  With a picture and all on a wiki/award page :)
[12:01] <Burgundavia> right