[02:10]  * Myrtti stares at the wall
[02:11] <Myrtti> atleast I'm not the only one awake at this hour
[02:11] <Flannel> Myrtti: I am!
[02:11] <Myrtti> our CEO is also awake
[02:11] <Flannel> And... so is the wall
[02:12] <Myrtti> though I'm not sure, it might be that he's in Vietnam
[02:12] <Myrtti> in which case it is perfectly understandable that he's awake
[02:24] <Myrtti> nini
[04:43] <bigfuzzyjesus> so have we decided, can i get into -offtopic
[04:44] <bigfuzzyjesus> nvm
[04:44] <bigfuzzyjesus> thank you!
[04:59] <elky_work> yes, think before acting. thank you!
[05:11] <nalioth> . . . . and the clock starts . . .
[05:13] <Flannel> tick
[05:14] <Flannel> tick
[05:14] <Flannel> tick
[05:34] <elky_work> nobody's placed bets yet
[05:37] <nalioth> sorry, i'm chasing bra spammers
[05:45] <bazhang> sirchuckofnorris in -ot is almightycthulhu?
[05:45] <bazhang> * [SirChuckofNorris] (n=Daniel@c-68-57-223-4.hsd1.in.comcast.net): DanielJ  seems familiar
[05:52] <bazhang> seems to be him; talking about buying used xbox 360s and selling them on ebay, just as al-mi-cth was
[06:33] <bazhang> oi
[06:45] <Madpilot> hi all
[07:04] <bazhang> holycow, how may we assist you
[07:08] <Flannel> bazhang: Hes got a redirect here from kubuntu
[07:08] <Flannel> er, -kde4
[07:08] <bazhang> aha banned I would guess then Flannel
[07:18] <nalioth> and we wonder why . . .
[07:18] <Flannel> yeah, he's in #ubuntu too, was watching for more language
[07:26] <Hobbsee> greetings
[07:39] <jussi01> Good morning Hobbsee
[07:40] <Hobbsee> jussi01!
[07:41] <jussi01> :)
[08:04] <Flannel> limcore looks to need some oppage soon in -offtopic, with how his mannerisms are progressing
[08:05] <Hobbsee> more ranting?
[08:05] <elky_work> this surprises me not
[08:05] <Hobbsee> heh.  you can't say that.
[08:05] <Flannel> yeah, and then some spam
[08:05] <jussi01> hehe, love the reaction when Hobbsee comes in...
[08:06] <Hobbsee> hehe :)
[08:06] <Hobbsee> spam of what?
[08:06] <elky_work> Flannel: he's on probation, he shouldnt be given this much move room if he's being an idiot, and spamming. he should not for one get away with spamming
[08:08] <Flannel> elky_work: Well, go ahead and banninate
[08:08] <Flannel> there's some swearing as a trigger if youd like
[08:08] <elky_work> Flannel: this nick is not in there
[08:08] <elky_work> i dont offtopic from work
[08:09] <elky_work> that's asking for non-productivity
[08:09] <Flannel> elky_work: I haven't ops in -offtopic, or I'd do it
[08:14] <Hobbsee> Flannel: problem solved.
[08:15] <Hobbsee> ask and you shall receive..
[08:15] <Madpilot> Hobbsee, is that permanent, or just a temp op?
[08:16] <Hobbsee> Madpilot: i don't have permissions for permanent.
[08:16] <Madpilot> who does, these days?
[08:16] <Hobbsee> ask the ircc
[08:26] <Flannel> Madpilot: heh, we probably ought ot move that factoid away from Edgy
[08:26] <Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/appendix-preseed.html I think would be the Hardy equiv?
[08:26] <Madpilot> Flannel, there doesn't seemt to be a later version - not sure if the Installation Guide is still a supported doc
[08:26] <Madpilot> ah, there we go. Nice.
[08:27] <Flannel> Madpilot: actually
[08:27] <Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/automatic-install.html
[08:28] <Flannel> Both (Edgy) and Hardy have the same page there, linkingto appendix B (the above link) for more/full instructions
[08:28] <Flannel> Ah, we ditched the /ubuntu/
[08:28] <Flannel> !automate
[08:29] <Flannel> !automate =~ #/6.10/ubuntu/#/8.04/#
[08:29] <Flannel> !automate
[08:29] <Flannel> that link works for someone else, right?
[08:29] <jussi01> yes
[08:29] <Madpilot> yup
[08:30] <Madpilot> !cloning
[08:30] <Madpilot> no need to update there
[08:30]  * jussi01 wonders if Madpilot is actually a Mad Pilot :P
[08:31] <Madpilot> I am, actually
[08:31] <Madpilot> well, I am a pilot. Not actually mad. Really.
[08:31] <jussi01> Madpilot: really? in which country?
[08:31]  * jussi01 has 20 hours to his name
[08:32] <Madpilot> jussi01, in Canada. Finished my Commercial PL last year, working on my Instructor Rating currently
[08:32] <jussi01> Madpilot: nice!
[08:32] <Madpilot> http://flickr.com/photos/wirelizard/2228416218/in/set-72157600850257007/
[08:32] <Madpilot> most expensive thing I own, by roughly an order of magnitude ^
[08:32] <jussi01> oh stop rubbing it in. :/
[08:32] <Madpilot> :)
[08:33]  * jussi01 ran out of money trying to get a license and now is _trying_ to save (unsuccessfully)
[08:34] <jussi01> nice Maule there
[08:34] <Madpilot> I'm currently going into debt getting the Flight Instructor's Rating, it will lead to a job, tho
[08:34] <jussi01> yeah.
[08:34] <Madpilot> the Maule was a visitor, not something I've flown
[08:35] <jussi01> What did you learn on?
[08:36] <jussi01> I did most of my hours on a 150, and a few on a 172
[08:36] <Madpilot> Did most of the PPL & CPL in 152, but a lot of the CPL buildup time in the 172
[08:37] <Madpilot> the 172 is way nicer for cross-country flying! Actual legroom, more than one radio, that sort of thing.
[08:37] <jussi01> yep. :D
[08:38] <Madpilot> just realized my Flickr stream has practically no pics of the planes I *actually* fly... this is about the only one: http://flickr.com/photos/wirelizard/2257236532/in/set-72157600850257007/
[08:38] <Myrtti> sillies
[08:38] <Madpilot> and this one: http://flickr.com/photos/wirelizard/532846136/in/set-72157600850257007/
[08:39] <Madpilot> Myrtti, of course we are.
[08:39] <Myrtti> ♥
[08:39] <Hobbsee> can i go home yet?
[08:39] <Myrtti> morning folks
[08:39] <Madpilot> Nobody sane has anything to do with aircraft.
[08:39] <Madpilot> Just something to consider on your next commercial flight, everyone. :D
[08:39] <ikonia> Hobbsee: abandon ship
[08:40] <ikonia> ahhh the mighty gnomefreak
[08:40] <Madpilot> hey gnomefreak
[08:40] <Madpilot> jussi01, where are you based?
[08:40] <gnomefreak> ;) hello
[08:41] <Hobbsee> ikonia: i wish...
[08:42] <jussi01> Madpilot: Finland
[08:42] <Madpilot> jussi01, cool. I gather flying is even more expensive in Europe, though... bad enough here.
[08:42] <jussi01> yes...
[08:43] <ikonia> Madpilot: a friend of mine is a pilot, the expense is insane
[08:43] <Madpilot> North America does have the cheapest GA flying in the world... we just have to keep reminding ourselves that it's worse for everyone else...
[08:44]  * Myrtti grunts
[08:44] <Hobbsee> hi cave man.
[08:45] <Hobbsee> or cave woman, as the case may be.
[08:45] <jussi01> cave woman?
[08:45] <jussi01> heh
[08:45] <jussi01> Madpilot: yeah, you are lucky ... :/
[08:46] <Madpilot> jussi01, best part is, Canada's getting all the overseas students these days. Cheap flying, and we're far easier to get into as a student, compared to the Excited States.
[08:46] <jussi01> hehe
[08:47] <jussi01> Madpilot: Im considering it... if I could ever save something....
[08:49] <gnomefreak> where do i get a list of umodes and chan modes for freenode? it used to be in factoid but its not there
[08:50] <Flannel> http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
[08:50] <Madpilot> not on the freenode website?
[08:50] <gnomefreak> thank
[08:51] <gnomefreak> Madpilot: its not on the link in !freenode
[08:56] <gnomefreak> can someone /whois me and let me know if you see all the channels that im in? easy way to know is if you are not in a channel that is listed
[08:57] <Flannel> gnomefreak: I see you in channels Im not in, yes.
[08:57] <Madpilot> heh
[08:57] <gnomefreak> Flannel: thanks
[08:59]  * Myrtti grunts and heads to shower
[09:00] <jussi01> !modes | gnomefreak
[09:00] <gnomefreak> oh thanks jussi01
[09:01] <jussi01> gnomefreak: and from what you are asking, Id think you are after +i ;)
[09:01] <gnomefreak> jussi01: nope i was +i i needed -i
[09:02] <jussi01> oh ... :D
[09:11] <Flannel> Hmmm, do we have a factoid for how one becomes ops? or is it just on the wiki?
[09:12] <jussi01> hrm
[09:12] <Madpilot> Step 0: Be insane.
[09:13]  * Flannel randomly has someone asking if we have to donate money and/or use ubuntu forever.
[09:13] <jussi01> Flannel: dont think we do
[09:13] <Madpilot> huh?
[09:13] <Myrtti> Flannel: it's a chain of trust
[09:13] <jussi01> Flannel: itworks like this you ask - you dont get
[09:13] <Flannel> Myrtti: I'm ... well aware
[09:13] <Flannel> was just wondering if we had a factoid, or if it was just on the wiki page
[09:13] <Myrtti> Flannel: you earn it - and if you ask, you have very slim chances
[09:13] <jussi01> thats what you telll them.
[09:15] <Myrtti> and for that matter - if I really knew how to become ops - I would have done the opposite in most cases
[09:16] <jussi01> hehe
[09:17] <Myrtti> or did any of you have "become addicted to IRC and care about the clenliness of your channels more than your apartment" how high on your top priorities and goals for life?
[09:18] <Madpilot> based on the mess around me currently, I decline to comment on that :)
[09:18] <Myrtti> I didn't actually plan this when I was 16 or 15 and joined #kukka in IRCnet for the first time with Win3.11 version of mIRC
[09:19] <Myrtti> ( and yay for a daily age crisis again /o\ )
[09:24] <Dave2> Rooms are meant to be clean? Damn.
[09:39] <Myrtti> hola Seeker`
[09:39] <Seeker`> heya
[09:40]  * Dave2 pokes Seeker`'s ~
[09:40]  * Seeker` prods Dave2
[09:41]  * Dave2 also pokes Outlook Web Access, hard
[09:41] <Seeker`> haha
[09:41] <Seeker`> Myrtti: how are you?
[09:41] <Myrtti> been better, getting older
[09:41] <Myrtti> every day
[09:48] <jussi01> Im going to stab someone
[09:49] <jussi01> I just went for lunch.. and guess what was on my windscreen when I cam back...
[09:49] <Seeker`> a complement on your parking?
[09:49] <jussi01> yeah... :/
[09:50] <jussi01> as a consequence, money went from - to --
[09:52] <Seeker`> ah
[09:52] <Seeker`> thats bad
[09:53]  * jussi01 sighs :/
[09:55] <Myrtti> that's a first one
[09:55] <Myrtti> EXCEPTION: Line without linefeed<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:42]  * Myrtti raises an eyebrow
[10:42] <Myrtti> ircbin<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:49] <mneptok> yay! training's done!
[10:49]  * mneptok now has 48 hours to do as he pleases in Tokya
[10:49] <mneptok> *Tokyo
[10:51] <Myrtti> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvkNasg_ETQ
[10:51] <Myrtti> mneptok: ^
[10:52] <mneptok> *cuh-lick*
[10:52] <Myrtti> though that concentrates more in china, but anyway
[10:54] <mneptok> mmmmm .... panda sushi
[10:54] <mneptok> it's sad, but the thing that has excited me most is actually seeing a bottle of "Pocari Sweat"
[10:55] <elkbuntu> mneptok, haha
[10:55] <elkbuntu> what was the training?
[10:55] <mneptok> elkbuntu: Dell stuffs
[10:55] <mneptok> @dell.jp
[10:55] <elkbuntu> no fair. japan gets dell stuff and aus gets nuffin :(
[10:56] <mneptok> maybe if you let the US nuke you your fortunes will change
[10:56] <elkbuntu> mneptok, they already did that once
[10:57] <mneptok> the arrival of New Kids On The Block CDs does not count, dear
[10:57] <elkbuntu> although, i think it was brits, not yanks
[10:57] <elkbuntu> http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/wayward/ch16.html
[10:59] <Myrtti> elkbuntu: oh shush, I bet you get the consumer line products of Dell in Australia anyway
[10:59] <elkbuntu> Myrtti, not with ubuntu!
[10:59] <Myrtti> elkbuntu: we *don't* get *any* consumer line products here.
[11:00] <Myrtti> elkbuntu: or - the webpage doesn't acknowledge there is such thing as consumer line products
[11:00]  * elkbuntu does await the dell e
[11:00]  * Myrtti grumps
[11:03] <elkbuntu> this eeepc is nice and all... but... well... shiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyy
[11:07] <Myrtti> I still think I'd get MSI Wind
[11:08] <elkbuntu> how much are they retailing?
[11:08] <Myrtti> 420€
[11:08] <elkbuntu> eep
[11:08] <elkbuntu> that's alot of AUD
[11:08] <Myrtti> eee's are 399€
[11:08] <jussi01> I want the new one from lenovo
[11:08] <Myrtti> don't need lots of maths to figure out which is a better deal
[11:08] <elkbuntu> jussi01, linkage?
[11:09] <elkbuntu> Myrtti, hehe
[11:09] <jussi01> 1 sec
[11:09] <jussi01> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9666362375.html
[11:09] <elkbuntu> apparantly HP's mini didnt go as good as they hoped, design-wise
[11:13] <Myrtti> MWAHAHAHA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITLmIfcCIXY
[11:16]  * elkbuntu blinks
[11:27] <Myrtti> Finnish beer ads ♥ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI2Kkt54CmI
[12:39] <Seeker`> I want an eee 901
[12:40] <bazhang> they are on sale here :)
[12:40] <Seeker`> how much?
[12:40] <bazhang> $NT15,460
[12:40] <elkeee> oh look, i'm a sir again
[12:40] <Seeker`> NT?
[12:41] <bazhang> new taiwan dollar
[12:41] <Myrtti> elkeee: don't you just love it >__<
[12:42]  * Myrtti doodles more hearts to a corner of a notebook
[12:43] <Seeker`> bazhang: Its not that much more here
[12:43] <bazhang> Seeker`, nice
[12:43] <Seeker`> £300
[12:50] <jussi01> anyone need a laugh?
[12:51] <jussi01> http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-198663-1.html
[13:00]  * Mez thinks Ljl just rebooted
[13:02] <Myrtti> whee
[13:03] <Myrtti> MEHHHHH
[13:03] <Myrtti> I just snapped a feather off the Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™!!!!11
[13:03]  * Myrtti gets some glue
[13:03] <jussi01> hehe
[13:04] <Mez> Myrtti, glue the feathers to the british pen ?
[13:05] <elkbuntu> heh
[13:05] <Myrtti> I don't have feathers as I don't own a boa and it's not easter
[13:06] <Mez> from the pink pen
[13:06] <Myrtti> NOOO!
[13:07] <Myrtti> no.
[13:07] <Myrtti> tis my pink pen I'll give to sabdfl when he visits Finland.
[13:07] <Myrtti> it has to be in mint condition then.
[13:08] <elkbuntu> buy him a special one, and get his name engraved on it
[13:08] <mneptok> Myrtti: i have a fluffy pink pen given as a gift from the London office :)
[13:08] <elkbuntu> just for kicks
[13:08]  * Myrtti pokes Mez with the eraser end of the British Poking Pencil
[13:08] <Mez> w00t
[13:08] <Myrtti> mneptok: awww
[13:09]  * Myrtti replicates her /poke alias and gives it to mneptok
[13:09] <mneptok> Myrtti: if you want a photo, i'll get you one when i get back to Montreal
[13:09]  * mneptok got the gift because he is officially Canonical's MAGICAL FAIRY PRINCESS!!!!!
[13:09] <Myrtti> mneptok: /alias /me pokes $0 with The Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™;/say *SQUEEEAK*
[13:10] <Mez> weird....
[13:10] <mneptok> I WANNA BE A BAMBI WITH FLOWERS ALL OVER ME!
[13:10] <Myrtti> meh... /alias poke /me pokes $0 with The Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™;/say *SQUEEEAK*
[13:10] <elkbuntu> mneptok, is bambi with ubuntu logos close enough?
[13:11] <Myrtti> mneptok: no, you be the Flower
[13:11] <Myrtti> with your farting
[13:11] <Myrtti> purty Flower
[13:11] <mneptok> Myrtti: start calling me Thumper and i just might propose ....
[13:11] <Mez> o_O
[13:11] <Myrtti> awwwww
[13:12] <Myrtti> I've not been proposed for such a long time
[13:12] <Myrtti> I think the last time was May
[13:13] <Myrtti> I declined
[13:13] <mneptok> c'est le Mai! jolie Mai! c'est le jolie mois de Mai!
[13:14] <Myrtti> I don't have time to wait for the proposer to grow some hair on his chest (he was 12)
[13:14] <elkbuntu> mneptok, http://www.geekosophical.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/bambuntu_small.jpg
[13:14] <mneptok> Myrtti: will you marry me? let's say .... hmmm ... 3 incarnations hence?
[13:14]  * mneptok is a monk next life, but plans on failing and incarnating a few more times
[13:15]  * elkbuntu mutters obscenities at madwifi
[13:16] <mneptok> elkbuntu: "Bambuntu" or "Ubambi?"
 (It wasn't blocked in college, so we could use it to do stuff, whilst other things like batch files were all blocked.)
[13:22] <mneptok> doesn't the "VB" stand for "Vaginal Blood?"

[13:26] <Myrtti> caption: If you're angry, don't drink yourself senseless but take a mattock and and go to a bog"
[13:26] <mneptok> pssst ... Serbia. if you want those vowels back, i think the Finns are sleeping ....
[13:26] <Myrtti> mneptok: no.
[13:27] <mneptok> vaaiassallatuuolaiissiaavaauutuuiiaalssaatta?
[13:27] <Myrtti> if you're really intrested, I've got a youtube.com link
[13:32] <Myrtti> I like the "Damnit"
[13:33] <mneptok> perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkele
[13:34] <Myrtti> tsk.
[13:34] <mneptok> i know, needs more vowels.
[13:34]  * Hobbsee pokes mneptok with the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!™
[13:34] <Myrtti> mneptok: no cursing
[13:34]  * mneptok having been poked, basks in the horror-glory that is Hobbsee
[13:35] <mneptok> oh, for those of you taking notes at home ...
[13:35] <mneptok> if you are conducting all-day training sessions, spicy chicken curry at lunch is a *really* bad idea.
[13:39] <elkbuntu> mneptok, here's your bambi! http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/funny-pictures-cubs-are-not-hunting-properly.jpg
[13:42] <mneptok> mmmmm ... bambasammich
[13:42]  * Myrtti growls and goes to nom... crisp bread
[13:42] <Myrtti> damnit.
[13:43] <mneptok> perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkele
[13:43] <jussi01> no crispbread?
[13:43] <mneptok> if i spill cayenne pepper in my coffee, is it perkkelated?
[13:44]  * jussi01 sighs... such an abuse of the Finnish language
[13:44] <Myrtti> jussi01: I assume he has run out
[13:44] <mneptok> jussi01: dude, Finnish itself is an abise of vowels. turnabout is fair play.
[13:45] <jussi01> mneptok: no, finnish actually makes sense...
[13:45] <Mez> has Ljl just... died?
[13:46]  * jussi01 resists making a joke here...
[13:49] <Mez> FYI: Floodbot1 is running from my server
[13:50] <Mez> (under LjL's account)
[13:50]  * mneptok floods his pants
[13:52] <elkbuntu> Mez, you could email him. we cant answer for him
[13:52] <mneptok> he's Italian. he prolly has like an 8 month vacation.
[13:52] <Mez> elkbuntu, I have emailed him...
[13:52] <Mez> a few times
[13:53] <Mez> elkbuntu, but, seeing as it had been nearly an hour, I bought in a replacement bot
[13:57]  * Myrtti sighs
[14:28] <Tm_T> hi kids
[14:29] <Tm_T> passing by with one question, any kind of statistics how many persons are in our "main support channels" per day?
[14:31] <elkbuntu> only our word of 1200+average
[14:32] <Tm_T> hmm, that's how many persons are in #ubuntu, but how many visit it in one day period, hmmmm
[14:32] <Tm_T> maybe I can get something out of logs
[14:35] <mneptok> [mneptok@snowwhite] mneptok :: cat irclogs/2008/Freenode/\#ubuntu.08-08.log | grep joined | wc -l
[14:35] <mneptok> 4167
[14:35] <jpds> jpds@ks33313> grep "has joined #ubuntu" irclogs/Freenode/2008/08/11/\#ubuntu.log | wc -l                                                                     ~
[14:35] <mneptok> this (obviously) does not account for people /join-ing multiple times
[14:35] <jpds> 4083
[14:35] <Tm_T> mneptok: that's what I'm thinking too, though, remove duplicates
[14:36] <Tm_T> mneptok: I'll check duplicates out, one moment...
[14:46] <Tm_T> mneptok: anyway, you can get linecounts from grep directly, using -ic (ignore case and print hitcount not lines)
[14:48] <Mez> Tm_T, I personally prefer to | wc -l
[14:48] <Mez> it's more likely they'll understand what's going on there
[14:49] <Tm_T> true
[14:49] <Tm_T> but grep with -i is needed I guess
[14:51] <Tm_T> jpds: mind to try with -i ?
[14:51] <jpds> jpds@ks33313> grep -i "has joined #ubuntu" irclogs/Freenode/2008/08/11/\#ubuntu.log | wc -l
[14:51] <jpds> 4148
[14:52] <Tm_T> see, different results?
[14:54] <jpds> Hmm. irssi has all the joins as lower case tho.
[14:55] <Tm_T> jpds: no it doesnt
[14:56] <Tm_T> uno momento
[14:56] <Tm_T> 1656.29 -!- mode/#UbUntU-oPs [+v Tm_T] by ChanServ
[14:56] <jpds> Ahh. I see.
[14:57] <Tm_T> it follows your own casing
[15:00] <Myrtti> Tm_T: he's too novice ;-)
[15:01] <Tm_T> grep -i "has joined #kubuntu" irclogs/freenode/#kubuntu.log | uniq -s 6 | wc -l
[15:01] <Tm_T> that's the way, to get only unique joins, right?
[15:01] <Tm_T> someone with daily logs, please test
[15:02] <jpds> Tm_T: See result.
[15:03] <jpds> Same*
[15:03] <Tm_T> jpds: interesting, you used uniq?
[15:03] <jpds> Tm_T: Exactly as you did.
[15:03] <Tm_T> ok, so they should be unique hits then
[15:03] <Tm_T> or hmmmmm
[15:04] <Tm_T> jpds: add -u to unig
[15:04] <Tm_T> q
[15:04] <Myrtti> No you don't want -u
[15:04] <Myrtti> trust me
[15:04] <Tm_T> Myrtti: hm?
[15:04] <Tm_T> Myrtti: why not?
[15:04] <Myrtti> it prints *only* unique lines
[15:04] <Tm_T> Myrtti: aaaaa! skip both of duplicates
[15:05] <Myrtti> exactly
[15:05] <Tm_T> yeah, so my first version is correct
[15:05] <Myrtti> I learnt that the hard way
[15:05] <Tm_T> hooray, that means we have nice population there
[15:05] <Myrtti> though...
[15:05] <Tm_T> yes dear?
[15:06] <Myrtti> Discard all but one of *successive* identical lines
[15:06] <Myrtti> what do you get if you sort the grep first?
[15:06] <Myrtti> and uniq after?
[15:07] <Tm_T> hmmmm
[15:07] <Tm_T> jpds: actually you should use -i with uniq too, I noticed
[15:07] <Tm_T> Myrtti: sort grep?
[15:08] <Tm_T> aaa!
[15:08] <Myrtti> Tm_T: take a case of a b c a  joining
[15:08] <Myrtti> you still have a b c a joining, because between a joining, there's b and c joining
[15:09] <Myrtti> ie. joins aren't successive
[15:09] <Myrtti> so you'd prolly should *sort* first
[15:09] <Tm_T> true, though, apparently no real difference
[15:09] <Tm_T> grep -i "has joined #kubuntu" irclogs/freenode/#kubuntu.log | sort -bf | uniq -is 6 | wc -l
[15:10] <Tm_T> no, actually, I get more after sorting
[15:11] <jpds> Tm_T: Totally weird, I keep getting 4148.
[15:11] <Tm_T> yeah
[15:13] <Myrtti> jpds: well, you need to ignore the timestamps of course first
[15:14] <Myrtti> before sorting
[15:14] <Myrtti> Tm_T: ^
[15:14] <Tm_T> Myrtti: hmm, that's nice, why I didn't realise that
[15:17] <Tm_T> sort -k 2.1 hmmmmm
[15:18] <Tm_T> jpds: add that -k 2.1
[15:18] <jussi01> where did bestbot go?
[15:18] <jpds> 4098
[15:26] <Tm_T> jpds: so different result
[15:26] <Tm_T> jpds: try with 3.1
[15:27] <jpds> Same as above.
[15:27] <Tm_T> yep
[15:27] <Tm_T> so that should be it then :)
[15:37]  * Myrtti sighs
 (#G610E114M1) :) what is that?
[15:38] <Myrtti> MS Comic Chat
[15:38] <bazhang> aha thanks Myrtti
[15:40] <Tm_T> work ->
[15:57] <jpds> Someone !o.p*s Susan in ##linux for "trolling".
[15:58] <Myrtti> say what?
[16:07] <jpds> !staff | Spambot [IOD]OleRip-Tom in #ubuntu.
[16:10] <jpds> K-Lined, thanks!
[16:10] <bazhang> :)
[16:27] <Myrtti> dealt
[16:28] <bazhang> that was odd
[16:28] <bazhang> he is normally very helpful
[16:29] <Myrtti> accidental paste
[16:29] <bazhang> no wonder.
[17:10] <soundray> Is someone impersonating IdleOne?
[17:12] <bazhang> dont think so
[17:13] <bazhang> nope, most definitely not soundray
[17:14] <soundray> Okay :)
[17:54] <jpds> ubottu: tell Bruno_F about yourself
[17:57] <m_newton> hello
[17:57] <m_newton> can I get help configuring my channel
[17:57] <m_newton> I have registered it
[17:58] <m_newton> how do I guard it with chan serv
[17:59] <ikonia> m_newton: which channel ?
[17:59] <nalioth> m_newton: /msg chanserv help
[17:59] <nalioth> #ubuntu-ops is not a support channel
[18:00] <m_newton> ##newton
[18:00] <m_newton> and ok
[18:50] <bazhang> argh
[19:11] <bazhang> sirchuck is baron1984? aka almightycthulhu?
[19:15] <PriceChild> Yes.
[19:15] <PriceChild> bazhang: has he done something to stick out?
[19:16] <bazhang> PriceChild, that would be a fair understatement
[19:16] <bazhang> if a three hour rant on apple being bad counts as 'sticking out'
[19:16] <PriceChild> bazhang: quick summary or shall I just lastlog?
[19:17] <bazhang> that would be it in a nutshell.
[19:18] <PriceChild> bazhang: what do you think we should do?
[19:18] <bazhang> PriceChild, normal measures seem to be completely ignored at this point. such as asking for restraint etc
[19:21] <PriceChild> ok..
[19:23] <bazhang> Pi-ci is sorely missed
[19:23] <PriceChild> Uuu congrats ubottu
[19:24] <bazhang> agent_bob in #u
[19:24] <PriceChild> bazhang: what do you think we should do?
[19:25] <bazhang> PriceChild, out of my hands, admin wise
[19:26] <PriceChild> Ok.
[19:26] <bazhang> can watch, but really he is antagonizing everyone in there just about.
[19:26] <bazhang> like snux just now.
[19:29] <bazhang> wow
[19:31] <PriceChild> bazhang: hmm?
[19:31] <bazhang> the bit about him cleaning his m16
[19:32] <bazhang> right after mentioning enemies.
[19:48] <ompaul> ikonia, you in the house?
[21:15] <Myrtti> Hello
[21:15] <Seeker`> lo
[21:22] <Myrtti> Anything interesting going on?
[21:22] <jussi01> no
[21:22] <jussi01> boring night
[21:22] <jussi01> which is probably a good thing
[21:23] <Myrtti> It is
[21:23] <PriceChild> baron, almighty, sirchuck was back earlier in -ot
[21:23] <Myrtti> Yeah, noticed earlier
[21:24] <Myrtti> Was?  The programme fills out the phone model
[21:35] <jussi01> cool
[21:36] <Myrtti> "people on channel" "jussi01" "slap"
[21:36]  * Myrtti slaps jussi01 around a bit with a large © Nokia N95
[21:36] <jussi01> nini... im tired.. talk later...zzzzzzzzzzzz
[21:36] <Myrtti> Nini
[21:38] <Myrtti> Sigh
[22:00] <nalioth> wtf is perlluver doing in #freenode?
[22:01] <ikonia> who is he ?
[22:01] <ikonia> he's obviously friends with m_newton the guy from before
[22:03] <jpds> We already have #ubuntu-youth and #ubuntu-students
[22:04] <ikonia> I've never seen the nick perlluver before
[22:04] <nalioth> jpds: please advise them so
[22:04]  * Myrtti joins #freenode
[22:05] <Myrtti> could someone recap me on what he has been doing there until now?
[22:05] <jpds> Myrtti: Advertising the above.
[22:05] <nalioth> Myrtti: just perlluver spamming ##ubuntu-teens
[22:05] <jpds> nalioth: It has been done.
[22:06] <Myrtti> a-ha
[22:06] <ikonia> it gives ubuntu a bad name / perception
[22:06] <ikonia> why would people in a random channel like freenode want to hear about it ?
[22:07] <jpds>  <+FloodBot1> ubuntu-teens<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is being let into #ubuntu from a gateway
[22:08] <jpds> ikonia: look what julia17}{'s doing and compare ;-)
[22:08] <ikonia> logged off now
[22:08] <ikonia> ah
[22:09] <ikonia> I can't see that nick
[22:09] <jpds> Probably for the best.
[22:09] <ikonia> ha ha
[22:09] <ikonia> that bad
[22:09]  * jpds wonders what to do with all these teen channels.
[22:10] <ikonia> the official ones are a good thing surly
[22:10] <jpds> I still think we'll be better off with just one.
[22:11] <jpds> Instead of having to sit in and watch 70+ channels
[22:11] <ikonia> teens could be 13 - and mixing with 19 year old (students) could find maturity level differences ?#
[22:11] <ikonia> yes, I see the point of many channels
[22:12] <ikonia> in terms of overhead
[22:12] <ikonia> s/the point/your point
[22:14] <Myrtti> !pm > kynphlee
[22:18] <jpds> Now they want to make a "test" to give people +v in the channel.
[22:18] <elkbuntu> jpds, the problem is that most of the extra channels started because some teen thought he/she knew better than everyone else, and started their own rather than constructively contribute to the existing
[22:19] <ikonia> jpds: in ##ubuntu-teen
[22:19] <jpds> ikonia: Yeah.
[22:19] <elkbuntu> #ubuntu-youth
[22:19] <jpds> elkbuntu: Understandable, everyone wants to do something.
[22:19] <ikonia> jpds: do they have an issue with #ubuntu-youth for example
[22:19] <ikonia> jpds: as in what's the driver ?
[22:20] <jpds> ikonia: They'd rather have their channel. Similiar to -youth <-> -students
[22:20] <ikonia> jpds: but whats the difference ?
[22:20] <ikonia> eg: what doesn't fit into #youth or #teens
[22:20] <elkbuntu> ikonia, when #ubuntu-youth started, it was cool for about 5 mins until they realised they could be heros with their own version
[22:20] <ikonia> (just curious)
[22:21] <ikonia> elkbuntu: ok, so "youthful exuberence" took over
[22:21] <elkbuntu> preeeetty much
[22:21] <elkbuntu> it then became a teens-on-linux recruiting ground
[22:21] <jpds> Not much happens on those channels anyway (compared to -teens too).
[22:22] <elkbuntu> anyway, train awaits, taking the eee
[22:58] <jpds> PriceChild: You watching -teens? We're trying to extract "the purpose" by force.
[22:58]  * elkeee pokes ikonia
[22:59] <Seeker`> #ubuntu-teens?
[22:59] <jpds> Seeker`: Two ##.
[23:00] <elkeee> the purpose of -youth, and i can say this with confidence, was to encourage youth into development as a creative forn of expression
[23:00] <jpds> They agree to fuse with the other two, only if the people there come to theirs...
[23:00] <Myrtti> how about you unleash a MenZa there
[23:00] <Myrtti> ?
[23:00] <elkeee> jpds, youre dealing with ego, not purpose
[23:01] <elkeee> they dont want to be part of the # as they know it means following our rules
[23:01] <Myrtti> SUMMON MenZa 5/5 with no summoning sickness!
[23:01] <jpds> I have backup now.
[23:03] <elkeee> jpds, itll probably work out like the beryl-compiz merge did. a whole new identity, rather than assuming that of someone else
[23:04] <elkeee> which wasnt wholly new, but meh
[23:04] <elkeee> you get the idea
[23:04] <Seeker`> can anyone say "##ubuntu-uncensored"
[23:04] <elkeee> Seeker`, wed rather you didnt
[23:05]  * stdin apparently still has that on highlight
[23:05]  * Myrtti larts Seeker`
[23:07] <jpds> Wahey Seeker`!!
[23:08] <Myrtti> ;___;
[23:08] <Seeker`> whats that face for Myrtti ?
[23:09] <Myrtti> you mades a booboo
[23:09] <Seeker`> Myrtti: did I?
[23:10]  * Myrtti looks at the audience on the other side of the fourth wall
[23:10] <Myrtti> yes, you did
[23:10] <Myrtti> dear audience, please pardon me while I poke Seeker` senseles
[23:10]  * Myrtti pokes Seeker` with The Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
[23:10] <Myrtti> *SQUEEEAK*
[23:10]  * Myrtti pokes Seeker` with The Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
[23:10] <Myrtti> *SQUEEEAK*
[23:11] <nalioth> guinea pig powered, of course
[23:11] <Seeker`> :(
[23:11] <Myrtti> once more
[23:11]  * Myrtti pokes Seeker` with The Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
[23:11] <Myrtti> *SQUEEEAK*
[23:11] <Myrtti> there
[23:12] <Seeker`> Myrtti: I did sorta help convince m_newton that he doesn
[23:12] <Seeker`> t need his own channel
[23:12] <Myrtti> wooooo!
[23:12] <Myrtti> wonderful
[23:13] <Flannel> Seeker`: What on earth do you mean?  doesn't everyone *need* their own channel?!?
[23:13] <Seeker`> Flannel: Everyone needs at least 6
[23:13] <Seeker`> if not 7
[23:13] <jpds> ..times 10.
[23:13] <Flannel> Seeker`: ah, good, glad we resolved that.
[23:13] <Seeker`> and at least 3 of those need to be ##ubuntu-
[23:13]  * Flannel lays claim to the #flannel* namespace
[23:13] <Myrtti> and the rest ##whatnot-ubuntu
[23:14]  * nalioth takes over #flannel* and dumps Flannel on the curb . . .
[23:16] <Flannel> noooo all my channels
[23:16] <Flannel> how will I ever survive?
[23:17] <Seeker`> Flannel: You wont
[23:17] <Flannel> nalioth: You're so hurtful, destroying all my dreams of being an operator in 1000 channels!
[23:17] <Myrtti> WHAT THE ...
[23:18] <Myrtti> since when has last.fm been political?
[23:18] <Myrtti> why ...
[23:18] <Myrtti> meh
[23:18] <Myrtti> Now playing "Peace Will Come (Georgia)" by Diana Gurtskaya.
[23:18] <Flannel> Myrtti: eh?
[23:18] <Flannel> Myrtti: Its a song.  They play music.
[23:18] <Myrtti> meh
[23:18] <Myrtti> it was an awful song!
[23:18] <Flannel> yes, well, thats why you've never heard it before
[23:19]  * Myrtti presses n
[23:19] <Flannel> Myrtti: I think it was about the Deep south, where they grow peaches and drink sweet tea.  Not the country.
[23:20] <nalioth> Flannel: um, yeah.
[23:28] <elkeee> tunnel
[23:29] <elkeee> whee tunnel


[14:38] <lukasm> John72: Yes, you can set parameters directly with ovs-vsctl, independently of netplan. Netplan will only cleanup (and restore) interfaces and settings on things it set itself. Those settings will be marked with a "netplan/" tag in "other_config".
[14:40] <lukasm> If you're modifying a interface created by netplan, you might need to restore that configuration after reboot, especially after the "netplan-ovs-cleanup.service" systemd unit has run. E.g. by having your own systemd unit/service to define those ovs-vsctl commands and depending on the netplan-ovs-cleanup.service via "After=netplan-ovs-cleanup.service"


[02:28] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: For actually calling to land lines or not?  I normally just use Empathy with voice over XMPP.
[03:32] <Takyoji> I wonder if Google Chat has Voice over XMPP
[03:32] <Takyoji> I suppose that would be easier to configure than SIP
[03:34] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: Yes, Google accounts work beatifully for voice and video in Empathy.
[03:35] <Takyoji> Because I'm looking for a decent approach to having a client for receiving calls over Google Voice
[03:39] <tonyyarusso> I'm not sure if you can give an XMPP account as a phone in GV.
[03:43] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: Scratch that - yes you can :)
[03:43] <Takyoji> ahh, alrighty
[03:43] <tonyyarusso> Only your Google one though it seems
[03:43] <Takyoji> Pidgin doesn't have support for Jingle though, yes?
[03:43] <Takyoji> Not Google Apps?
[03:44] <tonyyarusso> Pidgin should work just fine
[03:44] <Takyoji> I tried calling, and Pidgin didn't really do anything
[03:44] <Takyoji> while the web-based client and everything else alarmed
[03:46] <tonyyarusso> it has to be pretty recent pidgin
[03:48] <Takyoji> 2.10.0
[03:48] <tonyyarusso> that should work
[04:34] <Takyoji> Empathy looks like it would have support
[04:38] <Takyoji> Also, as I don't think I've announced yet, I've asked on the official IRC channel of Wayland development and apparently Wayland WILL allow you to sandbox applications in a chroot jail or similar.
[04:38] <Takyoji> So, yay!
[04:39] <Takyoji> Something to forward to, for paranoid tinfoil hat me; and now it will finally be practical to sandbox Linux apps.
[04:51] <ColinHarrington> Anyone jumping ship for Mint?
[04:51] <tonyyarusso> Heck no.
[04:51] <tonyyarusso> If I jump ship to anything it'd be Debian, not some weird knock-off for lazy people.
[05:12] <Takyoji> I believe Mint is more directly derived from Debian. :P
[05:12] <Takyoji> and is probably the most user-friendly for those coming from Windows
[05:13] <tonyyarusso> Mint is illegal, as they're whole point is to ship with restricted codecs and such pre-installed.   :P
[05:14] <Takyoji> You also sound like someone from the MAFIAA. :P
[05:15] <Takyoji> also, what of VLC not being sued out of existence? :P
[05:17] <Takyoji> What programs even utilize the Fluendo codec pack?
[10:36] <tonyyarusso> Takyoji: The way the licenses of the codecs are written, in most jurisdictions they are free of charge for individual users to download, but not for groups like Ubuntu or Canonical to "distribute" (ship pre-installed).  That's why the Ubuntu installer prompts you to check a box if you want to install them.
[22:49] <Takyoji> Anyone relatively thoroughly familiar with the workflow of Glade and GTK+?
[22:50] <Takyoji> such as concepts of UI creation with such, and common norms.


[19:30] <bert_> hi, can someone tell me if I'm free to use the ubuntu artwork (like orange arrows) ?
[19:36] <troy_s> bert_: Find the license
[19:37] <troy_s> bert_: I would think that at a bare minimum, the licence would be CC by SA
[19:37] <troy_s> bert_: Or better.
[19:37] <troy_s> bert_: Does that help you?
[19:37] <troy_s> bert_: There are only particular 'closed' mentality clauses on things that involve the actual Ubuntu logo or the Ubuntu text.
[19:37] <bert_> kind of, well I just want to use the left and right pointing arrows that come by default in ubuntu (nautilus)
[19:38] <bert_> so I can just use those if I want ?
[19:39] <troy_s> bert_: As I said
[19:39] <bert_> okey, thanks troy_s
[19:40] <troy_s> bert_: You will need to know for certain, and that means
[19:40] <troy_s> bert_: tracking down the license.
[19:40] <troy_s> bert_: I say this because in SOME instances, the license is missing for parts of the artwork and we need to know about it.
[19:40] <bert_> well, as it is in ubuntu main I think it should be under a OS license
[19:40] <troy_s> bert_: So you can not only help yourself, but you can help the community at large.
[19:40] <troy_s> bert_: You _think_... :) - the reality is that some mistakes might be in there.
[19:41] <troy_s> bert_: I believe the arrows in question fall under the jurisdiction of the Human icon set
[19:41] <troy_s> bert_: And that license should be easy to find.
[19:41] <bert_> yeah, I'm going to check it now
[19:41] <troy_s> bert_: Thanks.
[19:42] <troy_s> bert_: http://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/human-icon-theme
[19:42] <troy_s> bert_: States 'non-free' which means it has either 1) odd clauses or 2) isn't a Debian approved licence or both.
[19:43] <troy_s> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/non-free/h/human-icon-theme/human-icon-theme_0.24.debian-1/human-icon-theme.copyright
[19:43] <troy_s> bert_: The Human Icon Theme is licensed under the Creative Commons Legal Code
[19:43] <troy_s> Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5
[19:43] <troy_s> ;)
[19:44] <troy_s> bert_: That assumes that the two icons you wish to use are covered in that repository package.
[19:44] <bert_> damn, I was trying to find that :P
[19:45] <bert_> so that means that I have to place the names of the makers somewhere, right ?
[19:45] <thorwil> attribution of course means that you have to print some text referinbg to the origin right on top of the arrows! ;)
[19:46] <bert_> lol :P
[19:46] <thorwil> in theory, those who use attribution should define how it should be done themselves
[19:47] <thorwil> in practice, i havn't seen anyone doing it. i don't do it myself
[19:47] <troy_s> thorwil: Actually, it is much like the GPL
[19:47] <troy_s> thorwil: You must include the license with the file etc., etc.,
[19:47] <thorwil> bert_: where do you want to use those arrows?
[19:48] <troy_s> thorwil: I believe the commons site has a 'bare minimum' guideline.
[19:48] <bert_> but if I put something in the meta data of my webpage like "arrows from the human icon theme, more info on" and then a link to the copyright thing
[19:48] <troy_s> bert_: Check the license itself.
[19:48] <bert_> troy_s, I'm not a native english speaker so I don't fully understand the license
[19:49] <troy_s> http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions
[19:49] <troy_s> bert_: If you can chat here, you should be able to understand their FAQ>
[19:49] <bert_> okey
[19:49] <bert_> thx troy_s
[19:51] <troy_s> bert_: If you can't, please ask someone to help you.  Anyone around in here will probably at least _try_.
[19:52] <bert_> yeah, I'm reading the faq now and it's a lot clearer then the license text itself
[19:53] <thorwil> to me, lawyer speak in english is only slightly harder to read than in my native language :)
[19:53] <troy_s> bert_: the proper way of accrediting your use of a work when you're making a verbatim use is: (1) to keep intact any copyright notices for the Work; (2) credit the author, licensor and/or other parties (such as a wiki or journal) in the manner they specify; (3) the title of the Work; and (4) the Uniform Resource Identifier for the work if specified by the author and/or licensor.
[19:53] <troy_s> bert_: Yes... as the FAQ states -- there are 3 parts -- the legal one isn't expected to be understood by everyone
[19:53] <thorwil> point 2 is what i was referring to
[19:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Whatever manner specified (if it is)
[19:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Relatively clear.  Generally, that indicates that the names be intact in the license.  Although, if someone is angry with how you use their work, they can request to be removed from that acknowledgement.
[19:54] <troy_s> thorwil: As is assured under the license.
[19:55] <bert_> so if I put in meta data on a webpage that the arrows are from the human icon theme, which is copyright by canonical (copy past fromt he debian stuff) and quote the upstream authors it's okey ?
[19:55] <troy_s> bert_: You need to only worry about the license
[19:55] <troy_s> bert_: And all that it implies
[19:55] <troy_s> bert_: That clause will help, but bear in mind the following sentence:
[19:55] <troy_s> You also need to provide the Uniform Resource Locator for the Creative Commons license that applies to the work, together with each copy of the work that you make available.
[19:56] <troy_s> bert_: Read the section " How do I properly attribute a Creative Commons licensed work?"
[19:56] <troy_s> bert_: Until you at least understand the bare minimum that the license requires.  Then (as said earlier in the document) look at the particular license -- in this case I believe it is CC by SA 2.5.
[19:57] <thorwil> bert_: doing all this properly isn't worth it for 2 arrows, i'd say
[19:57] <thorwil> which can be taken 2 ways :)
[19:57] <bert_> yeah I know it's stupid
[19:57] <bert_> but I think licensing is important
[19:57] <bert_> it's what gives us the freedom to share in the open source world
[19:57] <thorwil> it is
[19:58] <troy_s> bert_: It is... and bear in mind
[19:58] <troy_s> bert_: That you only need to learn how to do something once.
[19:58] <troy_s> bert_: I think what you are doing is extremely worthwhile.
[19:58] <troy_s> bert_: And it will help 1) you _now_ 2) others in the future if you help them 3) others who have licenced work that you might see being used incorrectly etc.
[19:59] <troy_s> bert_: It is a far far far cry from stupid.
[20:00] <troy_s> The number of people who use or fail to understand licenses is massive.  Learning how the license works and how to properly cite it is ... helluva important.  Ask any MOTU about crappy applications of license terms and you might get an earful.
[20:00] <bert_> so if I understand this paragraph right I have to say that the human icon theme is licensed under the Creative Common Legal Code Attrubution-ShareAlike 2.5, copyright by canonical Ltd., made by -quote the names-
[20:01] <bert_> (that's kind of what the FAQ says
[20:01] <bert_> )
[20:01] <troy_s> bert_: I would think that something along those lines, with a link to the actual license (see follow up sentence) would suffice.
[20:01] <troy_s> bert_: And it specifically mentions metadata usage.
[20:02] <bert_> I don't get that last phrase ?
[20:03] <troy_s> bert_: Keep intact the license (1), (2) credit the author in the manner they request, (3) maintain title, (4) the URI of the work and or licensor, and the follow up sentence (5) URI to the Creative commons license itself.
[20:03] <troy_s> bert_: So if you want to bury it in the metadata, that appears fine.
[20:03] <bert_> okey
[20:04] <bert_> so I just put all of that in metadata and I'm fine then
[20:04] <troy_s> bert_: Be aware of the 'share alike' clause
[20:04] <bert_> yeah, that's very important indeed
[20:04] <troy_s> bert_: It is rather like the GPL
[20:04] <troy_s> bert_: That basically means that your 'body of work' becomes share alike, IIRC.
[20:04] <bert_> thanks troy_sand thorwil
[20:04] <troy_s> bert_: No problem bert_ ... share the knowledge.
[20:05] <bert_> well, the GPL is easier, because I really know that license very well
[20:05] <thorwil> troy_s: doesn't that only apply if he modifies the material?
[20:05] <bert_> (atleast version 2)
[20:05] <troy_s> thorwil: I believe the "ShareAlike" (and only the share alike) pulls you into a share alike clause.
[20:05] <troy_s> thorwil: Hence the extra 'share alike' license... it is more or less a GPLesque license.
[20:06] <bert_> indeed, lol :p
[20:06] <bert_> why isn't everything just licensed under the GPL :P
[20:06] <thorwil> troy_s: i mean to remember that sharealike deals with derivatives and keeping them open
[20:06] <thorwil> because the GPL was made for code
[20:06] <troy_s> thorwil: Wow.  Here is an interesting question...
[20:06] <troy_s> thorwil: You just read the list post?
[20:07] <thorwil> troy_s: eh, which one?
[20:07] <troy_s> thorwil: If someone works in Photoshop or another proprietary format, I wonder if providing the source actually abides by licensing.
[20:07] <thorwil> ah, that one
[20:07] <troy_s> thorwil: As technically, providing the source in a proprietary format is rather... useless really.
[20:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Not really an issue in code, but heading into the new art and design frontier it seems relevant.
[20:07] <bert_> yeah, kind of
[20:08] <thorwil> i thought by myself: yuck, photoshop. then i wondered if i'm a zealot now ;)
[20:08] <bert_> don't you guys do artwork in the gimp ?
[20:08] <bert_> of inkscape ?
[20:08] <troy_s> thorwil: Yep you are.
[20:08] <troy_s> bert_: I am a huge fan of inkscape
[20:08] <thorwil> inkscape is enlightened!
[20:08] <troy_s> bert_: I believe that the future of raster imaging lie in 1) nodal compositing and 2) vectors
[20:08] <bert_> vectors are cool :p
[20:08] <troy_s> bert_: There are some _amazing_ examples of work out there done entirely using vectors -- some might trick you into thinking that they were developed in a raster program.
[20:09] <bert_> I hope the future lies in formates like SVG
[20:09] <bert_> that would make life a lot easier
[20:09] <troy_s> bert_: There is a _lot_ of upside to traditional work done in vector.
[20:10] <troy_s> bert_: The fact that you can generally go in and change a brushstroke, a tonal range, etc., has massive upside.
[20:10] <thorwil> SVG has its limitations
[20:10] <thorwil> like no way to express gradient meshes directly
[20:10] <bert_> thorwil: yeah that's thru, that's why I say formates like SVG
[20:11] <bert_> it's just that it makes resizing so easy
[20:11] <thorwil> i have been playing with synfig. there you can create a gradient that follows a path. and the width of the gradient depends on the stroke width of siad path. that's so wicked and wouldn't fit into SVG
[20:12] <bert_> throrwil: that would make a huge SVG :P
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: There is a gradient mesh roadmap in place I believe.
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: That is SVG compliant.
[20:12] <thorwil> troy_s: there has been some brainstorming how it could be done, yes
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: That said, there is nothing wrong with drawing it.
[20:13] <bert_> I learned some SVG image creation (the code) back in september, I wanted to use it for stats but IE didn't support it so they didn't want me to use it...
[20:13] <bert_> but it has limitations
[20:13] <bert_> and the file size can grow if you use things like gradients
[20:13] <thorwil> SVGs compress very well
[20:14] <thorwil> and aren't SVGZs part of the spec?
[20:14] <troy_s> thorwil: Not to mention that they work amazingly well in version control systems as they are xml files.
[20:15] <bert_> yeah, it's text, so it compresses very easy
[20:15] <thorwil> and here i am, still using *01.xxx, *02.xxx :)
[20:16] <bert_> lol :p
[20:18] <bert_> say, learning the gimp or inkscape (but learning as in "I can use this program properly and know how to do prety most every usefull tool) ?
[20:18] <bert_> it that hard ?
[20:19] <troy_s> bert_: Yes.  Inkscape is damn hard to 'learn' as there are almost always new things added weekely in subtle and not so subtle ways.
[20:19] <thorwil> yes. about 18 hard
[20:19] <troy_s> bert_: It is rather evolutionary... if you run with an SVN version, you just sort of go 'Ok ... that's different'.  Not to mention that the actual program does a lot more than what is documented.
[20:19] <bert_> lol
[20:20] <bert_> and the gimp ?
[20:20] <troy_s> bert_: Sometimes a feature is a hidden keystroke because it is still in development, or it was just something added that came in under the radar.
[20:20] <bert_> or is inkscape just so much better that we don't have to talk about the gimp :P
[20:20] <thorwil> no
[20:20] <thorwil> depends on the task
[20:20] <troy_s> bert_: Depends.  If you want to do any sort of high end photo manipulation, I would avoid the GIMP and go with Blender.
[20:20] <bert_> blender ?
[20:21] <troy_s> http://blender.org
[20:21] <thorwil> only if you like noodles
[20:21] <bert_> ow you don't mean blender 3D :P
[20:21] <troy_s> bert_: It is about the only tool that will let you adjust raw files properly.
[20:21] <troy_s> bert_: And nodal compositing has been the defacto professional standard in high end imaging for a long long time.
[20:21] <thorwil> oh, that's new to me
[20:21] <bert_> can you edit pictures in blender 3D ?
[20:22] <thorwil> yes
[20:22] <troy_s> bert_: Yes.  Depends on what you mean by 'edit' of course.
[20:22] <bert_> lol
[20:22] <troy_s> bert_: You can do full compositing, etc.  There are a few lower level paint functions as well.
[20:23] <thorwil> bert_: i think after an investment of only 4 or 5 hours, you might have found out where and how to edit pictures in it :)
[20:23] <bert_> I tried to learn 3D moddeling with blender 2 years ago I think, but it was quite hard, to many key combinations and buttons :P
[20:23] <troy_s> bert_: Now that Cinepaint is more or less off the map, Blender is the only resource available for >8bpc imaging.
[20:23] <troy_s> bert_: You obviously haven't been near Maya or Nuke or Shake :)
[20:24] <thorwil> troy_s: cinepaint is off the map?
[20:24] <troy_s> bert_: Let's face it -- all things are complicated if you expect power... even Inkscape is a far cry from 'simple' really.
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: Yes.
[20:24] <bert_> maya is properietary and comercial right
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: I believe it is not in 8.04 for example.
[20:24] <troy_s> bert_: Yes.
[20:24] <troy_s> bert_: The visual effects industry, in a roundabout way, have turned into great supporters of open standards
[20:25] <bert_> yeah, but is inkscape as complicated as the blender interface ?
[20:25] <thorwil> no
[20:25] <thorwil> not even close
[20:25] <troy_s> bert_: Because they, unlike most people who preach Photoshop etc., realize that particular applications server particular roles in their workflow.
[20:25] <troy_s> bert_: No.  But getting the full horsepower out of Inkscape is at least as involved with the learning curve.
[20:25] <thorwil> bert_: i think inkscape has a very low barrier to entry
[20:25] <bert_> well, photoshop is evil :P
[20:26] <troy_s> bert_: not really evil, but the people who are responsible for the huge budget productions can't rely on a single tool.  It just won't deliver.
[20:26] <troy_s> bert_: Hence the rather ubiquitous nature of OpenEXR
[20:26] <troy_s> bert_: Every single professional app on the map needs to support that format or provide a way to get to and from it.
[20:26] <bert_> well, photoshop is just so pushed into people, you can't go around it
[20:27] <bert_> it's everywhere
[20:27] <thorwil> pushed?
[20:27] <bert_> and it's always very expensive (and also pirated)
[20:27] <troy_s> bert_: Most of the mainstream productions houses out there have a good deal of in house proprietary apps.
[20:27] <bert_> yeah, if you speak about artwork people seem to automatically think "photoshop"
[20:27] <troy_s> bert_: Hell... extend that to the video game industry as well... in-house tools are all over.
[20:27] <thorwil> i was under the impression that every kid, grandma and the dog have a copy of it to brigehtn some holiday pictures. illegal copy in most cases, of course
[20:27] <troy_s> bert_: Photoshop does what it does amazingly well.
[20:28] <troy_s> bert_: But there are zealots who prefer Corel Painter for example.
[20:28] <thorwil> after all these years it would be sad if it didn't
[20:28] <bert_> I have a copy of CS3 over here :P
[20:28] <troy_s> bert_: It really is ... irrelevant.
[20:28] <thorwil> i mean, it's not from microsoft
[20:28] <troy_s> bert_: The ease of piracy is yet one more problem that FOSS is up against.
[20:28] <bert_> yeah that's thru
[20:29] <troy_s> bert_: When it comes to art though, ultimately, it is the ability of the individual.
[20:29] <thorwil> bert_: painter is made for digital painting, not manipulating photos. of course there's huge overlap
[20:29] <troy_s> bert_: And the willingness / want for change.
[20:29] <bert_> indeed
[20:29] <troy_s> thorwil: Photoshop has more or less grown into the poor man's compositor.
[20:30] <troy_s> thorwil: Layers is ... dated as hell.
[20:30] <troy_s> s/is/are
[20:30] <bert_> the problem here with many of the people I know is that they are afraid of change (speaking of FOSS)
[20:30] <thorwil> bert_: like troy here would beat any noob with a pc and offset printer just using potatoe stamps ;)
[20:30] <troy_s> Gah.  Hardly.
[20:31] <troy_s> I am just a mookie hack of no consequence.
[20:31] <troy_s> I am still awaiting someone to arrive on the scene with some ability and show the nay sayers what is possible.
[20:32] <troy_s> bert_: Strange thing that eh?
[20:32] <bert_> well, not really
[20:32] <bert_> the one will come
[20:32] <troy_s> bert_: We have a culture that has become uber-conservative.  The only real way to compete now will be to unleash the true potential for innovation.
[20:32] <bert_> he will follow the fat pinguin right to zenity :P
[20:33] <troy_s> bert_: We are trapped in a culture that lauds the absolutely backwards work in Fedora 8 or the new SUSE.  We have much to learn.
[20:33] <bert_> troy_s: how do you mean, the linux operating system is more innovative then vista, that's for usre :P
[20:33] <thorwil> troy_s: the funny thing is, now that gimp will have a nodal system as underpinnings (gegl), the interaction architect working on it wants to hide that aspect and the developers seem to agree
[20:34] <troy_s> bert_: Actually, most of what I see every day (and I try to absorb as much as I can) is a shoddy imitation of a poor duplication.
[20:34] <bert_> how do you mean troy_s ?
[20:34] <troy_s> thorwil: Yeah... exactly.  Lack of experience in the real world perhaps.  Creating a powerful tool with nodal compositing at its core would be extremely attractive to a number of extremely high profile users.
[20:35] <troy_s> bert_: Somewhere at our core is the geeky insecurity factor -- the inability to be something distinctive and new.
[20:35] <bert_> well, I don't see that in ubuntu to be onest
[20:35] <troy_s> bert_: We have grown quite a bit over the past even four years in this regard, but the attitude still persists underneath the decision making process.
[20:36] <bert_> (and I'm probably now going to hear that ubuntu is made to easy and lacks functionallity but I don't agree to thatà
[20:36] <bert_> *)
[20:36] <bert_> so you mean that linux users think they are better then windows users, and that that is our problem ?
[20:36] <troy_s> bert_: Not from me.  I spent 100% of my life on free software.  It isn't an option to discuss how something doesn't work etc.
[20:36] <thorwil> no, the thing is more that there's almost alyways a commercial model app or system that is being copied to some degre
[20:36] <troy_s> thorwil: +1
[20:36] <troy_s> bert_: That is exactly the problem.
[20:37] <bert_> well, I can't deny that
[20:37] <troy_s> bert_: Part of that is probably the nature of dev -- SVN and CVS weren't so great with 'branches'.
[20:37] <troy_s> bert_: The reality is that there _are_ some amazingly gifted creative types out there with fascinating and new ideas.
[20:37] <thorwil> but luckily, there are examples like ardour, starting out as a protools clone and now changing more and more into a thing of its own
[20:37] <bert_> I like to laugh with people who are complaining about some virusses and then i just come and delete them from their windows boxes and then I think, thank God I run linux
[20:37] <troy_s> bert_: I want to see more of what _they_ see.
[20:38] <troy_s> thorwil: Probably a maturity thing.
[20:38] <bert_> so you think linux is to busy trying to beat windows by making stuff there already is
[20:38] <bert_> and that they should be busy making stuff there isn't yet
[20:38] <bert_> right ?
[20:39] <thorwil> troy_s: as much as i'm in love with solid design processes from the start, thsi copy first and then see approach can work nicely
[20:39] <thorwil> bert_: right
[20:39] <troy_s> bert_: Personally, if we are talking about pushing the future forward and innovation, the terms 'Apple' and 'Microsoft' have no place in the sentence.
[20:39] <troy_s> bert_: Nor the term 'beat'.
[20:39] <bert_> yeah, you have a point
[20:39] <troy_s> bert_: Relative world.  Who is the "Toughest fighter"?    What is the "best food"?
[20:39] <thorwil> well, on that perspective it's all about being as good as possible
[20:40] <bert_> but I'm afraid that you're not going to get the competif part out of the linux geek...
[20:40] <thorwil> i wouldn't want to
[20:40] <troy_s> thorwil: I think the design process depends on your team.  As J. Ive has said time and time again, the thing he will remember from his work isn't the work, but the process.
[20:40] <troy_s> bert_: The number one factor to getting Linux into mainstream is to have everyone who is working on it realize they aren't a good audience.
[20:40] <troy_s> ;)
[20:41] <troy_s> and arguably, Free Software is mainstream now.
[20:41] <troy_s> the bigger fight comes.
[20:41] <bert_> well, 2008 is the year of linux according to Linus Torvalds :p
[20:41] <bert_> (when was the year he hasn't said that ? )
[20:41] <troy_s> bert_: I'd say that when a product or item gets onto the BBC or the Wall Street Journal, it happened.  That happened this year with at least a few products.
[20:42] <troy_s> bert_: The demon is in the details.
[20:42] <troy_s> bert_: Art and design start taking a center stage now.
[20:42] <troy_s> bert_: Nebulous concepts such as presence and such.
[20:42] <thorwil> how can they with so few designers around?
[20:43] <bert_> well, linux will come in the news soon, if more and more goverments switch to linux
[20:43] <troy_s> bert_: We at Ubuntu still can't avoid huge gaffs... Look at www.ubuntu.com as a starting point.
[20:43] <bert_> and I think that'll happen soon
[20:43] <bert_> I'm on ubuntu
[20:43] <troy_s> thorwil: It is certainly a fight.
[20:43] <bert_> ubuntu.com is my start page :P
[20:43] <bert_> how do you mean gaffs (don't know the word :S)
[20:44] <troy_s> bert_: Problem / flops / mistake
[20:44] <thorwil> no-noes, mistakes to be ashamed of
[20:44] <bert_> what kind of mistakes are there on the ubuntu site ?
[20:44] <thorwil> oh, an ubuntu doodle
[20:45] <troy_s> bert_: There would be a few if you were looking.
[20:45] <thorwil> now google is the model ;)
[20:45] <bert_> well, there are some pretty useless things on the website
[20:45] <bert_> and some things should be more userfriendly
[20:45] <troy_s> bert_:  The main issue is probably that getting to the right presentation takes a good deal of time.  Last week it was an extremely poorly chocked up advertisement for Dell computers.
[20:45] <bert_> but I think it's a lot easier then other Open Source project site's
[20:46] <troy_s> bert_: "Userfriendly" -- I despise that term as much as the "usability" one.
[20:46] <bert_> how should I call it then ?
[20:46] <troy_s> bert_: Not what you call it, think about what it means.
[20:47] <bert_> it means being easy, structured, fast, etc.
[20:47] <troy_s> bert_: Is it a universal truth akin to the speed of light, or something completely rooted in the 'user'
[20:47] <troy_s> bert_: Really?
[20:47] <troy_s> bert_: Follow up question -- what is 'easy'?
[20:47] <bert_> yeah, that's something personal...
[20:47] <troy_s> bert_: TheMuso's idea of 'easy' is a far far cry from mine, and as it should be.
[20:47] <bert_> I see what you mean
[20:47] <troy_s> bert_: The golden rule of all art and design -- who is the viewer?
[20:47] <troy_s> (hell all of mathematics for that matter too ;) )
[20:48] <bert_> that's kind of like making a site
[20:48] <bert_> who's the public who you're making something for, and then make sure the site is build for that kind of people
[20:49] <bert_> (I'm a webdesigner so I like to look at things from that direction)
[20:49] <troy_s> bert_: Art and design, at its core, is language.
[20:49] <troy_s> bert_: That means you need to figure out a few basics -- WHO are you communicating to, WHAT you are communicating, and HOW you are going to do it.
[20:50] <troy_s> bert_: As with language, it shifts.
[20:50] <bert_> I see your points
[20:50] <troy_s> bert_: At one point in the pre-Renaissance era, people used to 'center punch' every item compositionally for example.
[20:50] <bert_> yeah that's something you have to keep in mind
[20:50] <bert_> that's quite hard too
[20:50] <troy_s> bert_: That was entirely swept away with the advent of what you accept today -- classical composition.
[20:50] <bert_> I always seem to make things too ugly and too difficult
[20:51] <thorwil> bert_: sheesh, why? :)
[20:51] <bert_> I make a lot of webapps which are only used by site admins, so I make them black with white text and admmin terms
[20:52] <bert_> *admin
[20:52] <troy_s> bert_: Ugly is relative.    That's still a design choice.  The idea of 'no' implies the completely invisible other.
[20:53] <thorwil> bert_: get clean well! ;)
[20:53] <bert_> hope to see you again some time ;)
[20:53] <troy_s> bert_: Lol.  Sad.  That will pass.
[20:53] <troy_s> :)
[20:54] <bert_> byebye ;)
[20:56] <thorwil> troy_s: if you take design to mean the process, then not.
[20:58] <thorwil> ooh, they're using the word "intuitive" on the art list now
[20:58] <thorwil> window switching by sucking on nipples? ;)
[20:59] <thorwil> (and i have been told even that has to be learned to be done properly)
[20:59] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL
[21:00] <troy_s> thorwil: I would think that statement is correct judging from how many new mothers have trouble with it.
[21:00] <troy_s> thorwil: Amen.
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: The relativism of the world is a rather scary thing.
[21:01] <thorwil> relatively, yes
[21:01] <thorwil> time for me again ... cya!
[21:02] <troy_s> thorwil: It reminds me of that quote regarding Zen (think of it what you will) that goes something like "Before I studied Zen, men were men and mountains were mountains.  While I studied Zen, men were mountains and mountains were men.  When I completed my studies, men were men and mountains were mountains."
[21:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Toodles.
[21:27] <salty-horse> hi. I'm trying to track bug with the arrows of the Human theme, but I can't find the arrow image sources. can anyone help?
[23:03] <troy_s> salty-horse: I believe the arrows would be in the Human icon set.
[23:05] <salty-horse> no file -iname-d "*arrow*"
[23:05] <salty-horse> and I found nothing in the theme definition files
[23:05] <salty-horse> (I don't know much about themes)