[00:10] <popey> Greetings from the colonies!
[00:11] <shauno> which colony?  and are they behaving?
[00:12] <popey> Amusingly in the bus on the way to the hotel, the american woman next to me was reading news of mr Bieber, on the daily mail online
[00:12] <diddledan> damned daily mail readers get everywhere
[00:13] <shauno> yeah.  my mother's latest husband keeps linking to DM articles.  it seems quite popular
[00:13] <penguin42> how many is she on?
[00:13] <shauno> it's quite difficult to explain to them that it's not a real newspaper
[00:13] <diddledan> (my parents are DM readers, too)
[00:13] <shauno> I think this is the 4th
[00:14] <diddledan> it comes to something when you can't remember how many husbands your mum has had :-p
[00:14]  * penguin42 was thinking about whether to say that :-)
[00:14] <diddledan> heh, shauno knows I insult him at every opportunity
[00:15] <diddledan> he does the same in reciprocity so it's all good :-p
[00:15] <diddledan> ooh that's a clever word for quarter past midnight
[00:43] <popey> Saw a hotel called Gaylord Palms
[00:43] <popey> and my first thought was "Does he?"
[00:44] <daftykins> :D
[00:44] <daftykins> that's proper technique for you
[01:02] <diddledan> family friendly
[01:02] <diddledan> I think that just went out the window:-p
[01:05] <map|work> popey in america?
[01:06] <penguin421> map|work: He's gone to feed the alligators
[01:06] <map|work> ;]
[01:07] <map|work> i just figured by the hotel he mentioned
[07:14] <foobarry> mornings
[07:38] <diddledan> morning
[07:51] <MartijnVdS> \o
[09:07] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[10:33] <brobostigon> good morning boys and girls.
[11:07] <ali1234> well that's a new one... phishing emails in finnish
[11:43] <Laney> phinnish
[12:01] <knightwise> morning everyone
[12:02] <brobostigon> afternoonings knightwise
[12:08] <popey> morning
[12:12] <mapps> afternoon
[12:13] <popey> haha it's groundhog day
[12:13] <popey> watching them do the thing with phil the groundhog on telly
[12:22] <mapps> phil the groundhog|?
[12:26] <popey> yes
[12:26] <popey> he predicted 6 more weeks of winter
[12:26] <brobostigon> he didnt predict it,
[12:27] <brobostigon> it was the man judging the animal.
[12:36] <popey> NO WAY!
[12:45] <foobarry> strange...it isnt raining yet today
[12:48] <popey> foggy here
[12:48] <brobostigon> semi-cloudy here.
[12:48] <penguin42> yeh bits of blue sky in Manc
[12:49] <popey> 28 degrees today apparently
[12:50] <brobostigon> fahtenheir or celcius?
[12:50] <popey> 77 f
[12:50] <brobostigon> fahtenheit or celcius?
[12:50] <brobostigon> scorching
[12:50] <popey> 84 on monday
[12:50] <popey> i should have brought some shorts
[12:50] <popey> might pop out today and buy some
[12:55] <mapps> not sure whether to go out to watch the superbowl or not
[12:55] <foobarry> can'[t think of much worse
[12:56] <foobarry> maybe watching splash.
[12:56] <mapps> lol
[12:56] <mapps> my friend loves the nfl..i somtimes watch it at work
[12:57] <foobarry> american football/sport reminds me of dramas on ITV. they don't make it for the story or the love of it, just for advertising revenue.
[12:58] <foobarry> similarly american football seems to be designed around eyeballs on the tv and ad breaks
[12:58] <mapps> probably endup going out and just getting drunk and going to the strip club
[12:58] <foobarry> stag do?
[12:58] <mapps> na
[12:58] <mapps> just there's a strip club near the casino
[12:59] <mapps> so sometimes go there before going to the casino after a night out
[12:59] <popey> well
[12:59] <popey> i do want to go and see the superb owl somewhere
[12:59] <popey> because lots of my co-workers are here, and I'ld
[12:59] <popey> bah
[12:59] <mapps> heh
[12:59] <popey> I'd like to have beer and wings ☻
[12:59] <mapps> hooters!
[12:59] <foobarry>  i read an interview with a woman saying that most strippers were lesbian and didn't  like men
[13:00] <mapps> probably true
[13:00] <mapps> some of them arent even nice at ST1
[13:00] <foobarry> although they were turned that way from their experiences with men
[13:00] <mapps> there's 1 american that's really hot..dunno why shes here..seems odd
[13:00] <foobarry> not my opinion, just the quotes
[13:00] <popey> riiiigght
[13:01] <popey> never been in a hooters, never really seen the appeal
[13:01] <foobarry> i don't know what it is. single mums in tshirts and low self esteem?
[13:02] <mapps> i went to Hooters Praha - it was ok..the girls are nice..but the steak i had was garbage
[13:02] <mapps> they didnt even ask me how i wanted it cooked?!
[13:02] <foobarry> can't imagine the food is great, for obvious reasons
[13:02] <foobarry> hey i'm a great chef and great menu, instead of high class resto, i'll go to some out of town dive
[13:02] <mapps> hard rock cafe was better but way ore expensive
[13:02] <mapps> lol
[13:03] <foobarry> i bet more nachos are sold/consumed on superbowl day than any other
[13:07] <mapps> dont think ive ever had nachos
[13:09] <foobarry> "Not Another Completely Heuristic Operating System, or Nachos, is instructional software for teaching undergraduate, and potentially graduate level operating systems course"
[13:09] <foobarry> or doritos without flavour
[13:12] <foobarry> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-to-Drop-Nautilus-Soon-and-Replace-It-with-Their-Own-File-Manager-423015.shtml
[13:12] <popey> haha
[13:13] <popey> wondered how long that would take
[13:13] <popey> "soon"
[13:13] <popey> is a year soon?
[13:14] <Laney> seriously
[13:14] <Laney> I'm wondering whether to reply to that thread
[13:14] <Laney> ogra ...
[13:14] <ali1234> it's funny that they claim it's because of missing features in nautilus
[13:14] <ali1234> when in fact the ubuntu file manager is likely to have even less features
[13:15] <popey> s/less/fewer/
[13:15] <Laney> helpful
[13:16] <foobarry> it will be qt based, right?
[13:16] <foobarry> so why not use dolphin base?
[13:16] <ali1234> because it has to have convergence
[13:16] <foobarry> so start all from scratch?
[13:16] <ali1234> yes
[13:16] <foobarry> canonical have been ripping  things up every 2 years
[13:16] <popey> i dont think it's quite as cut and dried and decided as the email implies
[13:17] <ali1234> convergence = design for touch, then make it run in a window on desktop
[13:17] <ali1234> i haven't read any email
[13:17] <ali1234> i just read the discussions about it on #ubuntu-desktop the past week
[13:17] <foobarry> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2014-January/004414.html
[13:17] <popey> and i dont think it's certain we would switch to unity8 in 14.10
[13:18] <ali1234> unity 8 will keep getting pushed back, i'll be amazed if it's ready for 16.04 frankly
[13:18] <Laney> nothing is certain imho
[13:18] <popey> indeed
[13:18] <Laney> especially not chucking everything and replacing it with worse stuff
[13:18] <popey> +1
[13:18] <ali1234> that's already happened
[13:18] <Laney> everything?
[13:18] <ali1234> why wouldn't it happen again?
[13:18] <ali1234> yes, everything
[13:19] <Laney> right, I'm done
[13:19] <ali1234> see gnome, unity, compiz 0.9
[13:19] <ali1234> see also gedit HEAD, lol
[13:20] <ali1234> i don't think i'm using anything from ubuntu-desktop any more
[13:20] <ali1234> it went from the best desktop to the second worst in two years
[13:20] <ali1234> good job everyone
[13:21] <foobarry> worst being gnome3?
[13:21] <ali1234> right
[13:21] <foobarry> that was pretty spectacular too
[13:22] <popey> → shower → breakfast
[13:22] <ali1234> gnome seems to be actively trying to piss off their users, while ubuntu-desktop seems to be merely incompetent
[13:23] <foobarry> is this a "legal" marble in the school playground sense? its massive http://ubuntuone.com/2BAPG5fAJYOWAnteMrvZqs
[13:23] <foobarry> much bigger than a 64 or a 256er
[13:26] <foobarry> playground marbles seems to be an oral tradition rather than any rules written anywhere on the net
[13:36] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: yes, different rules for different schools 8-)
[14:30] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[14:32] <brobostigon> afternoodlings bigcalm
[14:34] <daftykin1> after noodlings sounds great :D
[14:34] <daftykin1> mmm noodles in dark soy sauce
[14:38] <brobostigon> :)
[14:40] <daftykin1> how's brobostigon this fine day? any poor weather up your way this weekend?
[14:41] <brobostigon> light cloud cover, that it. not bad overall, and you?
[14:42] <daftykin1> seems the sun is out O_O
[14:42] <brobostigon> :)
[14:46] <popey> full of brekkie
[14:47] <daftykin1> popey: fry up? ;)
[14:47] <penguin42> and what is that
[14:50] <popey> bacon
[14:50] <brobostigon> nomnom,
[14:51] <hamitron> oh don't :/
[14:51] <brobostigon> oh do, :)
[14:52] <hamitron> got in far too late last night, eaten loads today and still feel.... unbalanced
[14:52] <hamitron> :/
[14:53] <daftykin1> hair o' the dog!
[14:54] <hamitron> :-o
[14:54] <hamitron> I don't think I'm going to do an intense workout again, before a 10 hour drinking session
[14:54] <hamitron> just don't think it mixes well
[14:55] <brobostigon> oh dear,
[14:55] <daftykin1> lol
[14:55] <hamitron> it has to be the exercise ofc
[14:55] <hamitron> ;/
[14:55] <brobostigon> self-inflicted hangover,
[14:55] <daftykin1> were you not knackered when commencing drinking?
[14:55] <hamitron> the cause of all this pain
[14:55] <daftykin1> hamitron: or are you calling the pint lifting the intense workout? ;)
[14:55] <brobostigon> lol
[14:56] <hamitron> daftykin1, it demonstated how my strength was improving..... getting easier as I progressed
[14:56] <daftykin1> ooh didn't even notice my nick
[14:57] <hamitron> tbh, I just gotta accept I am now too old to roll in at 5:45am and not feel it
[14:58] <brobostigon> once i passed 30, i got that feeling aswell.
[14:58] <hamitron> yeh, about my age
[14:58] <hamitron> :)
[14:58] <daftykins> i'm hitting 29 this month ;/
[14:58] <brobostigon> ones body is too old to cope with it.
[14:58] <hamitron> daftykins, enjoy the next year, all downhill from then on
[14:59] <daftykins> places shut by 2am on Guernsey though
[14:59] <daftykins> hamitron: i've been told the downhill line since 22 i think ;)
[14:59] <hamitron> lies!
[15:00] <daftykins> memory issues are really beginning to bug me though
[15:00] <hamitron> I think next weekend I'm gonna give myself a 3 hour break between the workout and drinking session
[15:00] <daftykins> sometimes i have pauses mid-sentence to remember what i was talking about =|
[15:00] <hamitron> :/
[15:01] <hamitron> I can't tackle logical problems like I used to
[15:01] <brobostigon> and then get home at 8:45
[15:01] <hamitron> but that is maybe just lack of practise
[15:01] <brobostigon> am*
[15:08] <brobostigon> the matrix ch5 10:55pm :)
[15:08] <ali1234> the description for that in my tv guide is funny
[15:08] <ali1234> "keanu reeves fights rebels in a virtual world"
[15:09] <brobostigon> oh dear
[15:09] <daftykins> lmao
[15:09] <daftykins> pesky rebels
[15:09] <daftykins> die, rebel scum!
[15:09] <daftykins> what's that from 0o
[15:09] <ali1234> the daily mirror 7 day tv guide thing
[15:14] <ali1234> Azelphur: ping
[16:36]  * neuro cries a little bit into his keyboard
[16:36] <neuro> emergency server migration :(
[16:36] <neuro> brobostigon: the matrix? on channel 5? avoid
[16:37] <neuro> it'll be pan and scan, filled with ads and potentially cut
[16:38] <brobostigon> maybe, yes.
[16:39] <awilkins> Doesn't everyone have it on DVD anyway?
[16:39] <awilkins> I think it was in that first generation of DVD titles that you bought because you had a new DVD player and there weren't many films available for it
[16:39] <neuro> it was like the second dvd i ever bought
[16:39] <neuro> region 1
[16:40] <awilkins> I think it was the first for me
[16:40] <awilkins> When DVD was super-awesome
[16:40] <neuro> yeah
[16:40] <shauno> I thought pretty much everyone got it with the player
[16:40] <neuro> you were like LOOK AT THE QUALITY
[16:40] <ali1234> also the first film many people downloaded from the internet
[16:40] <neuro> my first dvd player was a creative dvd-rom drive with mpeg2 playback card
[16:41] <awilkins> Yeah, my first DVD player was a Panasonic slotloader
[16:41] <neuro> root@hathaway:/data/cargobays/1/Video/Movies# ls -l The\ Matrix\ \(1999\).mkv
[16:41] <neuro> -rw-r--r-- 1 neuro users<PHONE_NUMBER>1 Jul 16  2013 The Matrix (1999).mkv
[16:42] <shauno> my first (And last) player was a pretty terrible, cheap-as-dirt no-name player from walmart; that'd also play vcd & divx <3
[16:42] <awilkins> I have this one from my local computer parts warehouse retailer that has lasted 15 years
[16:43] <awilkins> Regionless, obeys commands during the stupid unskippable trailers
[16:44] <neuro> i then got a chipped pioneer dv-somethingorother (sold), then chipped dv-363 (unplugged), then a sony blu ray (sold)
[16:44] <neuro> i don't think i've watched a blu ray disc in ages
[16:44] <awilkins> I have a bluray drive
[16:44] <neuro> definitely haven't put a dvd movie in a drive for years
[16:44] <awilkins> I have one (1) title, Avatar
[16:44] <neuro> i still have blu rays in the shrink wrap :)
[16:44] <awilkins> Which mum bought me for Christmas on the premise that I must have a bluray because I was a techie kinda guy
[16:44] <neuro> lol
[16:44] <awilkins> The drive came after
[16:45] <awilkins> I had to rip 30GB of data off it to play it on Linux
[16:45] <awilkins> DVD is still just fine
[16:45] <neuro> yeuch
[16:46] <neuro> resolution too low
[16:46] <neuro> DTS audio is rare
[16:46] <awilkins> Hollywood has lost track of the fact that the plot and script are what matters
[16:46] <neuro> and R2 discs are usually yucky 576p50 transfers
[16:46] <awilkins> There are ancient films with terrible resolution that choke you up
[16:46] <neuro> i'd still rather watch films in 1080p24 ta much :)
[16:48]  * neuro watches migration data transfer progress and cries a little bit more
[16:48] <neuro> 100G in 2.5 hrs
[16:48] <neuro> 460G to go :P
[16:48] <awilkins> Across what kind of bus?
[16:48] <neuro> bus?
[16:49] <awilkins> Channel for data ; commonly called a "bus" in computers]
[16:49] <ali1234> gigabit?
[16:49] <neuro> you are miscategorising the premise of the task
[16:49] <awilkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_(computing)
[16:49] <neuro> server 1 -> dc infra -> server 2
[16:50] <neuro> 100Mbps-ish
[16:50] <ali1234> you're pushing 400Mbps, it's gigabit with other traffic
[16:50] <neuro> um
[16:50] <neuro> ok?
[16:50] <neuro> i'm rsyncing data from one server to another
[16:50] <awilkins> Hmm, is some of the data already on the other server
[16:51] <neuro> nope
[16:51] <neuro> well
[16:51] <neuro> 100G is, now
[16:51] <neuro> 104G, sorry
[16:51] <neuro> stupid crappy kimsufi servers
[16:52] <neuro> "oh lets put seagate drives in, they'll last forever"
[16:52] <neuro> *facepalm*
[16:52] <penguin42> neuro: Never underestimate the bandwidth of a hard disk in a Fedex ban
[16:52] <penguin42> van
[16:52] <neuro> penguin42: they're both in a dc in northern france, it will be quicker for me to rsync
[16:52] <neuro> since i am not in northern france
[16:52] <neuro> and ovh won't let me into the dc
[16:53] <awilkins> Hire Jean Reno to break in and just pull the drive from one RAID array and shove it in the other
[16:53] <ali1234> hmm my bad that's actually almost exactly 100mbit
[16:53] <neuro> raid array, haha
[16:53] <neuro> ali1234: yes
[16:53] <ali1234> kinda sucks if they're in the same DC
[16:53] <neuro> it's not an infra limitation
[16:54] <neuro> server 1 is connected to a 100Mbps port
[16:54] <neuro> server 2 is on GigE, rate limited to 200Mbps
[16:54] <penguin42> you're compressing - right?
[16:54] <neuro> nope
[16:54] <penguin42> bzzzt - wrong answer
[16:55] <neuro> bzzzt - wrong question
[16:55] <neuro> the data is already compressed
[16:55] <penguin42> oh
[16:55] <neuro> :)
[16:55] <penguin42> neuro: I hope you don't have bandwidth charges
[16:55] <neuro> nope
[16:55] <awilkins> IN THE SAME RACK?? That would be pretty harsh
[16:55] <neuro> not in the same rack
[16:56] <awilkins> Well, clearly not at 100Mbit/s
[16:56] <neuro> and it's technically between two different "customers", because ovh are muppets
[16:56] <awilkins> You'd think they would run some fibre between those bad boys though
[16:56] <neuro> "let's create a new brand for our mid range servers, but make existing customers sign up again into a new customer database"
[16:56] <neuro> awilkins: you're not getting it
[16:57] <neuro> server 1 is physically restrained by the speed of the port it's connected to
[16:57] <neuro> i'm maxing the port out
[16:57] <awilkins> They in different dcs in Northern France
[16:57] <awilkins> ?
[16:57] <neuro> they're either in different DCs or they are in different data halls
[16:57] <neuro> but it could be fibre in between or copper or wireless or whatever
[16:57] <neuro> i can't copy anything faster than 100Mbps
[16:58] <neuro> because server 1 can only connect at 100Mbps
[16:59] <awilkins> Is it really old?
[16:59] <neuro> no idea
[16:59] <awilkins> Because I have gigabit right on my desktop motherboard
[16:59] <neuro> dude
[16:59] <penguin42> awilkins: Might be, or might be on 100Mbps switch port
[16:59] <neuro> the server only does 100Mbps because it's plugged into a 100Mbps port because that's what OVH wanted to sell it at
[16:59] <awilkins> Damn Frenchies
[17:00] <neuro>         Supported link modes:   10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
[17:00] <neuro>                                 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
[17:00] <neuro>                                 1000baseT/Full
[17:00] <neuro>         Speed: 100Mb/s
[17:00] <neuro>         Duplex: Full
[17:00] <awilkins> Sounds like it's the card on the box that's limited to that
[17:00] <neuro> argh
[17:00] <awilkins> No it doesn#t
[17:00] <awilkins> I#m tired
[17:00] <neuro> *slap*
[17:00] <awilkins> Clearly my finger can't reach my apostrophe cos it's so tired
[17:01] <neuro> no excuses!
[17:01] <neuro> anyway
[17:01] <neuro> 110G
[17:01] <neuro> :P
[17:01] <neuro> tum te tum
[17:01] <awilkins> Had a very long fortnight and a hectic weekend
[17:01] <neuro> and in the meantime i'm trying to get the right packages and config sorted on server 2
[17:01] <neuro> paaaaaaaaain in the buuuuuuum
[17:02] <neuro> it's my own fault really
[17:02] <neuro> i didn't document stuff
[17:03] <neuro> and i can't get apache to fire up, which is equally annoying
[17:03] <shauno> odd image manipulation question that I have no idea how to even describe; given a box where the edges aren't straight, something that can straighten them? preferably something scriptable?
[17:04] <shauno> (top and bottom edges are always fine, left/right edges have 'wavy' deviations, not just a skewed container)
[17:04] <penguin42> oh, hmm
[17:04] <neuro> graphicsmagick maybe?
[17:05] <penguin42> well it can do affine transforms - but shauno has a more wiggly box
[17:05] <neuro> aaaaaaaaah
[17:05] <neuro> ports.conf
[17:05]  * neuro slaps apache2
[17:06] <shauno> very wiggly boxes :/  my cleanest sample so far is http://lab.oneil.me.uk/hffax/wefax_20140202_165508_0_ok.png
[17:07] <shauno> I can skew the whole thing happily enough, but I'd really like something that can catch the wobbles
[17:09] <neuro> "Internal Server Error"
[17:09] <neuro> yay
[17:11] <neuro> "Warning: mysql_connect(): Access denied for user"
[17:11] <neuro> yay, even better
[17:12] <ali1234> shauno: you can code something up to fix that quite easily with scipy/numpy
[17:12] <ali1234> are the lines always same length?
[17:13] <shauno> they should be, but they're not
[17:13] <ali1234> hmm
[17:13] <ali1234> how you receiving that exactly?
[17:13] <shauno> sdr+fldigi
[17:14] <ali1234> have you got one with less edge cropping?
[17:15] <ali1234> actually does it just wrap around?
[17:15] <ali1234> the black/white pattern is sent once per line?
[17:15] <shauno> I think that's my best yet.  but it should wrap, yeah
[17:15] <shauno> the black/white pattern should mark the ends of the lines
[17:16] <ali1234> you'll want to operate on the raw data
[17:16] <ali1234> luckily this is how scipy wants to work anyway
[17:19] <shauno> hm, looking to see if there's any other way I can export it.  fax is inherently analogue
[17:20] <ali1234> scipy just wants the raw demodulated analogue waveform
[17:21] <ali1234> lining up the lines with black blocks will be easy, not sure how you can do the others though
[17:26] <shauno> okay, I'm dumping the next few to wav .. I'll pick the cleanest and then I guess try to learn python :)
[17:27] <ali1234> python is the easy part :)
[17:27] <shauno> I can't seem to find any documentation of how long the line should be
[17:31] <ali1234> so what you need to do is cross-correlate the white-black pattern then take maximums. that's where the lines start/end
[17:32] <ali1234> you can probably do that with only numpy
[17:32] <ali1234> since it's 1d
[17:32] <penguin42> haha oh yeh wefax
[17:32] <ali1234> well half of them anyway
[17:32] <ali1234> the rest, just guess :)
[17:34] <shauno> hm, there doesn't seem to be an actual line length; that's why it's not written as such
[17:34] <shauno> a line is 1/2second.  what I do with it is apparently my problem
[17:36] <penguin42> shauno: I thought the idea is that you run some type of phase lock to the big black blob on the left ?
[17:36] <ali1234> right
[17:36] <ali1234> there probably isn;t even horizontal pixels
[17:37] <ali1234> just a continuous signal
[17:37] <penguin42> nod
[17:37] <penguin42> just a brightness sensor wired to the signal
[17:37] <penguin42> and a hopefully vaguely fixed rate spinning drum
[17:37] <ali1234> analogue TV is the same. except it has a proper sync signal on every line
[17:38] <ali1234> maybe this thing does too but it's not visible in the processed output
[17:38] <shauno> it doesn't seem to, it's just fsk .. so one frequency means black, the other means white
[17:38] <Azelphur> hey folks, I'm doing program > file 2>&1, the stuff shows up in file, but only after I close the program
[17:38] <Azelphur> which...is annoying
[17:39] <neuro> yay, server up and running, just need to wait for data copy to complete now
[17:39] <penguin42> Azelphur: Is the stuff mostly coming out of stderr or stdout?
[17:40] <Azelphur> think it's mostly stdout, python print :)
[17:40] <ali1234> also unless your receiver is dropping usb packets i don't see how it can even go out of sync...
[17:40] <neuro> i like it when web based things that have package dependencies have a page that says "oh, this is missing, installify it please"
[17:40] <penguin42> Azelphur: Generally stdout is buffered when it thinks it's writing to a file
[17:40] <Azelphur> that's annoying :/
[17:40] <ali1234> Azelphur: use f.write()/f.flush() - it still probably won't help much though
[17:41] <Azelphur> f?
[17:41] <ali1234> sys.stdout.write() that is
[17:41] <Azelphur> ah
[17:41] <shauno> right; as long as both I and the sender agree on lines-per-minute, this wobble shouldn't happen
[17:41] <ali1234> the buffer is in the pipe
[17:41] <penguin42> yeh, you should be able to change the output buffering mode
[17:42] <Azelphur> ali1234: there we go, calling sys.stdout.flush() seems to solve it, ty :)
[17:43] <ali1234> Azelphur: i want you to make a website for minecraft seeds
[17:43] <Azelphur> oh?
[17:43] <ali1234> i know there's loads already but they only have like 10 seeds each
[17:43] <Azelphur> hehe
[17:43] <ali1234> i spent this moring writing a seed -> map.png batch python script
[17:43] <penguin42> Azelphur: If you can find the equivalent of setbuf it's probably a good idea
[17:44] <ali1234> it can generate about 100 maps per hour
[17:44] <Azelphur> ali1234: fancy
[17:44] <ali1234> 1000 x 1000 blocks. bigger is slower of course
[17:45] <shauno> is it firing up the server to generate the map?  curious how you'd make them larger
[17:45] <ali1234> yeah
[17:45] <ali1234> it runs the server to generate the spawn point, then stop it and moves the spawn
[17:45] <Azelphur> it's interesting, right now I'm mostly doing company stuff, could get something going with bootstrap though :)
[17:45] <ali1234> so it needs to have user voting because the seeds are random
[17:45] <shauno> I have a script that keeps starting/stopping the server and editing the spawn point, but it gets slow quickly
[17:47] <ali1234> shauno: yeah i got one too but it has no batch mode and you have to set up the server yourself
[17:47] <ali1234> this creates the server config and runs it for you
[17:50] <shauno> okay, I have to go buy some food before I forget.  then I'm going to sit down with this thing and see if I can figure out the logic at least
[18:38] <neuro> well, crap
[18:38] <neuro> philip seymour hoffman has been found dead, apparently
[18:38] <neuro> (the actor)
[18:38] <daftykins> oh him :(
[18:39]  * penguin42 looks on imdb
[18:40] <penguin42> hmm - the guy from Mi3 that got replaced with a matching mask?
[18:40] <daftykins> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626804579358943360702878
[18:40] <daftykins> he was the butler in The Big Lebowski
[18:41] <penguin42> out of the things imdb lists I think I've only seen Mi3
[18:41] <neuro> seriously?
[18:41] <neuro> wow
[18:41] <MartijnVdS> Invention of Lying
[18:42] <MartijnVdS> I've seen that.. but don't remember him
[18:42] <MartijnVdS> and Lebowski, of course
[18:47] <bashrc> it really tied the room together
[18:47] <neuro> there's a beverage here, man
[18:49] <daftykins> well you know, there's a lot of ins - a lot of outs
[19:01] <shauno> ugh.  what the hell is all this easy_install **** and why can't people just package stuff
[19:01] <bashrc> packagemonkey dude
[19:02] <shauno> I'm not even sure I want to know what that is.  I just want to use apt :)
[19:05] <neuro> it's platform agnostic
[19:06] <shauno> here's the catch.  platform agnostic has never, ever worked out ot be a good idea
[19:09] <MartijnVdS> neuro: so is apt ;)
[19:09] <MartijnVdS> it works on arm, it works on powerpc, it work on x86, ... :)
[19:10] <neuro> you know exactly what i mean :)
[19:11] <shauno> I spent far too long last night trying to get a mono app working; mono kept complaining I didn't have X11.  a) I do, and b) the app uses sdl, not X11.  Today I tried a java app that just tells me unsupported major.minor version
[19:11] <shauno> 'platform agnostic' generally means either it theoretically works, but only really on the dev's machine.  or it's just equally useless everywhere
[19:11] <daftykins> :D
[19:12] <daftykins> i remember a java joke, "compile once, debug everywhere!"
[19:12] <shauno> I remember a java joke that's decidedly too blue for this channel :)
[19:12] <daftykins> ooh do tell
[19:14] <shauno> hmm I'm not entirely sure how to word it.  it equates 'cross platform' with copulating with the wrong orrifice
[19:16] <shauno> aaanyway.  I should go back to banging my head off a brick wall
[19:16] <shauno> pyaudio apparently refuses to do anything without a soundcard.  even though it's reading the wav from a file
[19:17] <daftykins> :)
[19:18] <daftykins> i hope you find a cushion for the wall soon sir
[19:18] <shauno> the wall deserves it
[19:19] <shauno> I don't suppose there's a way to fool alsa into thinking it has a card?
[19:19] <daftykins> alas, not my area of expertise
[19:19] <ali1234> why are you messing around with wav files and sound cards?
[19:20] <shauno> so far I'm trying to find the signal within the audio
[19:21] <ali1234> use 8-bit raw PCM
[19:33] <directhex> shauno, what was the specific mono issue?
[19:34] <shauno> well, that's pretty much it.  trying to start anything with mono told me I needed to download X11.
[19:34] <directhex> on mac?
[19:35] <shauno> right
[19:35] <directhex> trying to run a winforms app?
[19:36] <shauno> nah, a game that uses sdl (OpenRA)
[19:37] <shauno> but I had the same issue trying to run monodevelop (trying to narrow down whether the game or mono was handling it badly)
[19:37] <directhex> i expect they use winforms to do the basic window drawable. sdl 1.2 doesn't support that, you need a full toolkit to host the sdl pane
[19:37] <directhex> sdl2 can instantiate a window
[19:38] <shauno> oh I have it working now, through some mess of reinstalling things in the right order
[19:38] <shauno> it just drove me nuts that running mono from within xterm still complained there's no X
[19:38] <ali1234> xterm with no x... looooooool
[19:38] <ali1234> mac is silly
[19:39] <shauno> oh I have X.  xterm was my attempt at "proving it"
[19:39] <ali1234> well i guess mono is the silly one then
[19:40] <ali1234> i have run openra on linux and didn't have any problems
[19:40] <ali1234> didn't even realise it was mono
[19:40] <shauno> the issue seems to be that .. once upon a time there was X11.app and XQuartz.app.  the relationship between the two is similar to Chrome vs Chromium
[19:41] <ali1234> this is what happens when developers decide X is "too old" and they need to rewrite it
[19:41] <shauno> XQuartz was where all the work was done, and then X11.app was apple's "blessed" distribution of it.  Apple have since abandoned their blessed version, which everyone's fine with since upstream works better anyway
[19:41] <shauno> mono specifically goes looking for apple's X11.app, rather than looking for X.  if it just tried to open $DISPLAY, it'd work fine.  but it tries to be clever, and fails
[19:42] <directhex> um... it's not that simple
[19:42] <directhex> the question is "where is libX11.so.6?"
[19:43] <ali1234> is there an open source version of "hot or not" type of website?
[19:44] <directhex> if libX11.so.6 isn't in the mac equivalent of LD_LIBRARY_PATH (it isn't), where should mono be loading it from?
[19:45] <ali1234> static link it, isn't that how apple apps work?
[19:45] <ali1234> everything is linked into a huge bundle with everything
[19:45] <shauno> it's in exactly the same place either way, /usr/X11R6/lib/
[19:51] <shauno> oh, apparently it's not, it's in /opt/X11; but that's symlinked from /usr/X11 and /usr/X11R6
[19:51] <directhex> was that the case yesterday?
[19:52] <shauno> yup
[19:52] <shauno> has been for years; the two clobber each other when you try to install them
[19:54] <shauno> just checked time machine to make sure I'm not going nuts; my oldest backup is from july, and has the same symlink layout
[20:31] <marshmn> hi; anyone have a suggestion for an music/audio player? I've been using Banshee for quite a while, but nowadays it seems to crash every day or two and leaves a defunct process behind; I've trie RhythmBox seems to crash quite often on me
[20:32] <marshmn> I listen to somafm quite a bit so would need one that has streaming capabilities
[20:39] <andylockran> hey guys - anyone free to offer advice on writing/consuming a REST API?
[20:39] <andylockran> I've got an EDF energy monitor - every minute it writes a row to the database with the time, and electricity usage in watts at 12 points around the flat, and a total figure
[20:40] <andylockran> I've put in a simple REST api, which returns each row as an object (using django rest framework)
[20:40] <Azelphur> andylockran: I want one D:
[20:40] <andylockran> ideally, I want to pull out the 1440 results that make up one day, and compare them to the last
[20:41] <andylockran> but using my current model, that's 2880 results from the api and seems to be heavy
[20:42] <andylockran> I want to work out how I can bridge the objects. ie.  an api request to day/1 and day/2 where the result is essentially "select id,overall from electricity where date = date"
[20:47] <Azelphur> andylockran: model.objects.filter(date=datetime.date.today())
[20:57] <andylockran> Azelphur: yeah - I got that far, but then I want to organise the data before spitting it out through the api
[20:57] <ali1234> that's what views are for
[20:57] <ali1234> they don't have to return html
[20:57] <ali1234> can be xml, or whatever
[20:58] <Azelphur> indeed
[20:58] <Azelphur> ali1234: you're a jack of all trades, know django too? :P
[20:58] <ali1234> i've used it before, a little
[20:58] <Azelphur> hehe
[20:58] <ali1234> it's probably all different now
[20:58] <ali1234> but it's still MVC right?
[20:58] <andylockran> yeah
[21:42] <aquarius> andylockran, there are a fair few django modules which expose a rest api based on your models for you, with a little configuration; might be easier than rolling it by hand
[21:43] <daubers> Evening
[23:27] <mapps> superbowl time!
[23:27] <directhex> yay for owls
[23:30] <mapps> ;]
[23:35] <daftykins> those owls are superb
[23:35] <daftykins> popey: owl throw would go down perfectly right now ;) )


[03:13] <blahdeblah> Charmers: a little birdy told me that there is currently no charm upgrade story from a non-reactive to a reactive charm; can anyone confirm or deny?  And if confirm, give a bit of background - i.e. is this fixable?
[03:15] <jrwren> blahdeblah: its not true. charm-upgrade could always work, however, charms would have to be written to do so. very few charms have transitioned from non-reactive to reactive.
[03:15] <jrwren> Yes, this is absolutely fixable.
[03:19] <blahdeblah> jrwren: So I think I'll be wanting to do that in the quasi-near future; got any more details about what is required?
[03:20] <blahdeblah> beisner: ^ FYI - re discussion about NTP charm
[03:23] <jrwren> blahdeblah: i'm not the best to ask, but remember it is just scripts which execute. Test and make sure things don't break and upgrades will work fine.
[03:29] <blahdeblah> jrwren: hmm - OK; know of anyone else who has dealt with the issue in more depth?
[03:30] <jrwren> blahdeblah: lazyPower marcoceppi and some others who appear offline
[03:30] <blahdeblah> jrwren: Cool - thanks
[03:31] <jrwren> blahdeblah: for example, iirc many openstack charms are transitioning to reactive
[08:51] <kjackal> Hello Juju World!
[08:56] <babbageclunk> hi kjackal!
[09:00] <jackweirdy> I know it's a mountain of a feature, but is it realistically possible in the long term to use docker instead of lxc for the local provider? It would give you local provider support for mac and windows for free
[11:53] <beisner> hi blahdeblah, jrwren - possible, but not at all simple.  https://github.com/juju-solutions/charms.reactive/issues/77
[11:55] <beisner> jrwren, we have no classic openstack charms rewritten in reactive for this reason.  new charms, definitely reactive :-)
[12:34] <jrwren> beisner: ah! I was confused by the new ones. Thanks for the correction.
[12:37] <lazyPower> jrwren - i forget the specifics of what its not doing, however i know cory_fu has been looking into this
[12:38] <stokachu> anyone run into this:
[12:38] <stokachu> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/MYC9neDg/
[12:38] <stokachu> beta 14 attempting to destroy a beta13 controller
[12:38] <lazyPower> stokachu - well thats a fun bug :)
[12:38] <lazyPower> looks like something certainly did get an upgrade that beta13 isn't responding to
[12:38] <stokachu> :D
[12:38] <stokachu> yea
[12:39] <rick_h_> stokachu: lazyPower betas don't get upgrades
[12:39] <stokachu> i can't even force destroy it with kill-controller
[12:39] <stokachu> rick_h_: i know upgrades aren't supported which is why im attempting to destroy the controller and start fresh
[12:39] <lazyPower> rick_h_ - we need to adjust your keyword scoring mechanism
[12:39] <stokachu> rick_h_: at least we should be able to do that between version
[12:39] <lazyPower> stokachu - i can get you a revision of charmbox thats beta-13 if you need a temporary hand
[12:39] <lazyPower> s/hand/downgrade/
[12:40] <stokachu> so i was able to manually terminate the controller in aws
[12:40] <stokachu> and now it's attempting to destroy through provider :\
[12:40] <stokachu> lazyPower: thanks though
[12:41] <lazyPower> stokachu - welcome to the pain of having stale machine data in your config
[12:42] <stokachu> lazyPower: ugh, yea lemme get that charmbox rev so i can try to destroy that way
[12:42] <stokachu> rick_h_: are you saying that if i install beta14 and attempt to bring down a beta13 environment in order to be compatible with beta14 that this is expected?
[12:42] <rick_h_> stokachu: yes, this is why we say 2.0 isn't prod ready. each beta is an island
[12:43] <rick_h_> stokachu: we're not expected to support long running controllers until we hit RC
[12:43] <stokachu> well that's fun
[12:43] <rick_h_> stokachu: yea :(
[12:44] <lazyPower> stokachu docker pull jujusolutions/charmbox:devel@sha256:fe61e24d903890502048a18783dc84c6e6d970efa32c1d97cffd22cf7af9fc92
[12:45] <stokachu> hah installing docker to destroy a juju controller
[12:45]  * lazyPower rubs his hands together evilly
[12:45] <lazyPower> yessss, let the hate flow through you
[12:45] <rick_h_> stokachu: normally we suggest just shutting down using the cloud tools
[12:45] <rick_h_> stokachu: with juju unregister
[12:45] <lazyPower> rick_h_ - what is this juju unregister you speak of?
[12:46] <stokachu> rick_h_: ah much easier than installing docker
[12:46] <rick_h_> lazyPower: say you get a controller because of a juju share + juju register
[12:46] <lazyPower> :O
[12:46] <rick_h_> lazyPower: you need a way to get rid of that controller from your juju controllers output
[12:46] <lazyPower> Details:
[12:46] <lazyPower> Removes local connection information for the specified controller. This command does not destroy the controller.  In order to regain access to an unregistered controller, it will need to be added again using the juju register command.
[12:46] <rick_h_> lazyPower: and unregister does that
[12:46] <lazyPower> time to mail the list!
[12:46] <stokachu> so i killed the instance in aws and did a juju unregister
[12:46] <stokachu> that should be all i need?
[12:46] <rick_h_> stokachu: yea
[12:46] <stokachu> ok cool
[12:47] <rick_h_> stokachu: unless you used storage/networking bits in which case you need to clean up the cloud bits used for that
[12:47] <stokachu> nah nothing fancy
[12:47] <rick_h_> stokachu: yea, just being clear in case folks are watching :)
[12:50] <lazyPower> and list=pinged
[12:50] <lazyPower> stokachu - i'll get you to install docker one way or another ;)
[12:50] <stokachu> :D
[13:11]  * D4RKS1D3 Hi to everyone
[13:20] <lazyPower> o/ D4RKS1D3
[13:20] <D4RKS1D3> Hi lazyPower :)
[14:01] <D4RKS1D3> Someone knows if is posible configure a service with two network interfaces?
[14:02] <lazyPower> D4RKS1D3 - depends on the charm and how its coded to handle networking. Most charms just leverage public-address/private-address according to how the charm author intended
[14:02] <lazyPower> some charms have extra-network-bindings
[14:03] <D4RKS1D3> But if I create a new charm, juju has de capabilitie to put more than one nic
[14:05] <D4RKS1D3> And this capabilitie is available in 1.25.3 or 2.0?
[14:18] <lazyPower> D4RKS1D3 - seems like we need to get more docs around the feature - but here's a bug to track https://github.com/juju/docs/issues/1163
[14:19] <lazyPower> D4RKS1D3 - and network spaces surfaced preliminary in 1.25, its being expanded in 2.0.
[14:40] <zeestrat> rick_h_: Are you looking at supporting upgrades for the RC's or only 2.0 proper?
[14:41] <rick_h_> zeestrat: once we hit RC you should be able to upgrade a deployment from RC to RC and to 2.0 GA
[14:56] <zeestrat> rick_h_: Cool. Do you have a set amount of beta's and RC's that are you planning to go through? I see beta15 and rc1 in the timeline on LP.
[14:56] <rick_h_> zeestrat: we're waiting to make a couple of backward incompatible changes before going to RC
[14:56] <rick_h_> zeestrat: so not set
[14:56] <rick_h_> zeestrat: it's more we try to do weekly betas with what's in
[14:57] <rick_h_> zeestrat: and once we get the work items we know will cause issues for folks landed those betas with that work should be toward the end of our beta line
[15:10] <zeestrat> rick_h_: Gotcha. So we're probably looking at Q4 for some of the later RC's and hopefully the GA?
[15:13] <rick_h_> zeestrat: we're really hoping the next 8 weeks for sure
[15:17] <zeestrat> rick_h_: Good to know. Thanks :)
[15:20] <Spads> hi
[15:20] <Spads> a while ago someone here helped me with a command that dumped debug state for reactive relation stuff
[15:20] <Spads> while in debug-hooks
[15:20] <lazyPower> Spads - sounds like charms.reactive get_states
[15:21] <Spads> I run this from the shell?
[15:21] <lazyPower> in the hook context during debug-hooks, yep
[15:21] <Spads> cool thanks, confirmed it says the right thing... so now why is my code notr unning!
[15:22]  * Spads debugs
[15:28] <lazyPower> Spads - welcome to the story of my life :)
[15:28] <lazyPower> Spads - whats even scarier is when you say "Why does this code work?"
[15:28] <Spads> hahaha
[15:39] <Spads> lazyPower: okay I think I need help here
[15:39] <Spads> my @when('juju-info.available') function never seems to run
[15:39] <Spads> despite:
[15:40] <Spads> 'juju-info.connected': {'conversations': ['reactive.conversations.juju-info.global'], 'relation': 'juju-info'}, 'juju-info.available': {'conversations': ['reactive.conversations.juju-info.global'], 'relation': 'juju-info'}}
[15:40] <Spads> like I put hookenv.log calls in the function and it's simply never run
[15:41] <Spads> I'm using the juju-info interface layer
[15:43] <Spads> What am I doing wrong?
[15:50] <lazyPower> Spads - oh hey, sorry i stepped away from my desk. /me reads backscroll
[15:52] <lazyPower> that sounds correct. the state is raised when the relationship is established...  is this on a requires or a provides side of the relationship? (hint: should always be on requires)
[15:52] <Spads> yeah, I just realised that @when is a synonym for @when_all
[15:52] <Spads> I assumed it would be an or!
[15:52] <lazyPower> @when_any
[15:52] <Spads> so my attempts to be all-encompassing faaaailed
[15:52] <Spads> yeah it's cool
[15:52] <lazyPower> it does happen :)
[15:52] <Spads> I narrowed it back down to the surgical event again
[15:52] <Spads> and now I have other people to blame
[15:52] <lazyPower> nice!
[15:52]  * Spads 🔥 to bare except: statements
[15:52] <lazyPower> dont charm-blame us ;)
[15:53] <Spads> hahahaha
[15:53] <lazyPower> i guess in this context, it would be charm-layers us
[15:53] <lazyPower> i should add that as an alias for the lulz
[15:53] <Spads> well the reactive layers stuff is kind of horrible in the sense that there are all these magic strings that aren't very well documented or inspectable
[15:53] <Spads> if you get one of those wrong...
[15:53] <lazyPower> magic strings?
[15:53] <Spads> yeah
[15:54] <Spads> all the '{provides:foo}-derp-{lerp,dorp}'
[15:54] <Spads> and then working out what you're supposed to key off of on the other side
[15:54] <Spads> and the docs for the layer just say {{name}}
[15:54] <Spads> which, uh, thanks?
[15:54] <lazyPower> well, thats a byproduct of how juju implements relationships
[15:54] <Spads> like stuff just happens as strings
[15:54] <lazyPower> an interface is bound to a realtionship name. We need a way to bind on that. so templating the reactive state was the middle of the road
[15:54] <Spads> no type checking, no logging of what it's doing
[15:54] <lazyPower> all the typechecking and etc should be handled by the interface itself
[15:54] <Spads> yeah, I just wish it had a way of telling me precisely what it's doing and why I'm failing
[15:55] <Spads> because we've been SO CONFUSED about the interface name vs the relation name vs the remote service name...
[15:55] <Spads> and you just try them all and waste hours when something doesn'tw ork
[15:55] <Spads> because it's all just strings!
[15:56] <lazyPower> Spads - i really want you to file bugs about stuff like that
[15:56] <Spads> ok
[15:56] <Spads> will do
[15:56] <lazyPower> if its been causing you headache, we need to get bugs filed against our charm developer docs to make them easier for the world at large. I'm certain you're not the only one who's run into this.
[15:57] <lazyPower> relationships were the most contentious document prior to the reactive refactoring, so its no surprise to me that they yet still remain largely mysterious and misunderstood
[15:59] <Spads> https://bugs.launchpad.net/charm-helpers/+bug/1611024
[15:59] <mup> Bug #1611024: magic strings in reactive relations lead to confusion <Charm Helpers:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611024>
[16:01] <lazyPower> Need a quick review on https://github.com/juju-solutions/interface-juju-info/pull/3
[16:16] <lazyPower> Thanks Spads, i broke that up into the respective places i think it targets.
[16:16] <Spads> thanks
[16:36] <mattrae> hi, i'm attempting to upgrade an environment from juju 2.0 beta 7 to beta 14. after installing the beta 14 juju packages, juju status is asking me to log in. when i try to log in it hangs. i'm hoping i can upgrade and not have to redeploy the environment. https://pastebin.canonical.com/162628/
[16:53] <lazyPower> mattrae - 2.0 are listed as betas and treated as islands, we wont support controller upgrades until 2.0 hits -rc
[16:53] <lazyPower> there will be upgrade paths from release-candidates forward
[16:53] <lazyPower> the current method is to destroy the controller and re-bootstrap on the new beta
[17:13] <mattrae> lazyPower: thanks for the details about upgrades. we'll see if re-bootstrapping is a possiblity
[17:48] <mayuri_> hello everyone..!  Good moring
[17:48] <lazyPower> o/ mayuri_
[17:56] <mayuri_> I am writing a juju charm and need help for the same
[17:58] <lazyPower> mayuri_ - Have you read the developer docs? https://jujucharms.com/docs/stable/developer-getting-started   this is the best resource to get started writing a charm.
[17:58] <mayuri_> yes
[17:59] <mayuri_> i have read these docs
[18:00] <mayuri_> i have a specific query..
[18:01] <kwmonroe> fire away mayuri_
[18:02] <cholcombe> what's the juju2 equiv of destroy-machine --force?  I have some stuck units i can't remove
[18:04] <mayuri_> can you please go through the this question?
[18:04] <mayuri_> http://askubuntu.com/questions/808638/how-to-get-ip-addresses-of-all-units-in-a-service-in-juju-charm
[18:05] <kwmonroe> cholcombe: remove-machine --force
[18:06] <cholcombe> kwmonroe, cool thanks
[18:12] <mayuri_> I am not able to get ip addresses if all units which are participating in a relation.
[18:17] <mayuri_> can anybody help me with that?
[19:19] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: Prabakaran wants to check in his layer code on launchpad, but got an error. What should be the recommended location for the layer code?
[19:21] <kwmonroe> mbruzek: i think lp:~ibmcharmers/layers/layer-<charm>/trunk
[19:22] <kwmonroe> mbruzek: but i'm not sure if /layers/ needs to be a project first or not
[19:22] <kwmonroe> i know you have reservations that layers is too generic, but i'm not too worried about that
[19:23] <Prabakaran> kwmonroe: shall i try with this branch lp:~ibmcharmers/layers/layer-<charm>/trunk
[19:24] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: I am worried about layers may be too generic to create a project for that.
[19:24] <kwmonroe> oh, i see mbruzek.. is that because LP would require that to be unique across all namespaces?
[19:26] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: That is my concern, I am chatting with sinzui right now about this.
[19:26] <kwmonroe> unfortuantely mbruzek, i don't think many are using LP for their layered source.. i just checked all the big data branches and all our layered stuff is in github
[19:27] <kwmonroe> mbruzek: Prabakaran, just so i'm clear.. the problem here is because pushing to lp:~name/charms requires a series to be in the branch, and multiseries charms break that?
[19:28] <kwmonroe> iow, you can't push a trusty/xenial multiseries foo charm to lp:~name/charms/foo/trunk?
[19:28] <Prabakaran> ya my charm is supported on both xenial and trusty
[19:30] <Prabakaran> i tried this bzr push lp:~ibmcharmers/layer-ibm-spectrum-symphony/trunk ....
[19:30] <Prabakaran> is not working
[19:31] <Prabakaran> k
[19:31] <mbruzek> Prabakaran: Yes the reason for that is there is no project named layers-ibm-spectrum-symphony
[19:31] <mbruzek> Prabakaran: So you could create said project but that would be tedious to do every time you have a new layer.
[19:31] <Prabakaran> let me try like this lp:~name/charms/<charm name>/trunk
[19:32] <mbruzek> Prabakaran: no that really isn't the right location for _layer_ code.
[19:32] <mbruzek> Prabakaran: kwmonroe and I are looking into creating a project named "layers" if that makes sense
[19:32] <Prabakaran> so i will have to push built charm only to these branches right?
[19:33] <Prabakaran> ok that would help
[19:35] <Prabakaran> its time for my bed..if anytning please mail me  on this. i will try and come back to you. thanks mbruzek kwmonroe for your help on ths
[19:36] <mbruzek> Prabakaran: we will continue with an email
[19:36] <Prabakaran> thanks mbruzek
[19:36] <kwmonroe> have a good night Prabakaran!
[19:38] <kwmonroe> mbruzek: wasn't there a time when lp:~name/charms/<series>/<charm>/[trunk | layer] was a thing?
[19:39] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: I am not clear on that.
[19:39] <kwmonroe> so the project was still /charms/, with layered source in the ./layer branch and built charm in ./trunk
[19:39] <mbruzek> I am worried about people confusing .../charms/ with __charm__ code and not layer code
[19:40] <kwmonroe> ack.. it's a bit m00t here anyway since that won't work for multi-series charms anyway.  i think <series> was required in the /charms/ project.
[19:40] <mbruzek> maybe my concern is unfounded, but I have had to explain a few things like this recently
[19:41] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: It seems like we have discussed this before
[19:41] <kwmonroe> yeah mbruzek, who's the expert here?  seems clear that you and i don't know what we're doing, and i loathe going round-and-round with you.
[19:41] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: I am trying to remember _when_ we talked about this last.
[19:42] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: I loathe you too buddy
[19:43] <kwmonroe> mbruzek: it would have been right around the time ibm switched to layered charms, so early 2016.  and i'm fairly sure we went with ./layer vs ./trunk for the branch name precisely because we couldn't find a common root project to replace charms and we didn't want every charm to be a new project.
[19:45] <mbruzek> kwmonroe: It looks like you created lp:~ibmcharmers/layer-ibm-base/trunk on 03-23-2016 and modified it on 06-02-2016
[20:50] <cory_fu> tvansteenburgh just showed me ngrok.io for letting other people access services run with local provider and it's the coolest thing I've seen all week
[20:50] <cory_fu> Just wanted to mention it here, in case it's new to anyone else
[20:52] <magicaltrout> not month though
[20:52] <magicaltrout> can't be that great ;)
[20:55] <magicaltrout> hmm
[20:55] <magicaltrout> interesting
[21:00] <bdx> oh the possibilities
[21:00] <bdx> cory_fu, tvansteenburgh: thanks for sharing


[03:33] <peeps[lappy]> does xubuntu have a default app for system monitor
[03:34] <peeps[lappy]> nm, found it, task manager
[03:35] <peeps[lappy]> i think its been a decade or so since i used xubuntu :P
[03:45] <peeps[lappy]> i'm confused where fdisk -l lists 16 x 64MB ram disks
[03:45] <peeps[lappy]> s/where/why/
[03:49] <peeps[lappy]> i installed xubuntu in a vmware guest, and gave it 12GB ram, i was gonna set up 8GB as tmpfs for doing a large compile/build in.  i'm just really confused because it seems like there's already 6GB tmpfs + 16x 64MB more?
[03:51] <peeps[lappy]> vmware just autoran the install with no interaction, so i'm not sure what it did exactly
[10:02] <xubuntu74i> join
[12:41] <xubuntu00w> hi, could anyone here tell me which one is better Xubuntu or Mint XFCE?
[12:45] <bekks> It depends on your personal opinion.
[12:46] <xubuntu00w> But, generally which is more preferred?
[12:49] <bekks> xubuntu00w: The one you like more.
[12:50] <xubuntu00w> Which one is faster, more reliable and has got better support and also is more convenient to use?
[12:51] <bekks> Depends on your hardware. Depends on your choice of applications. Depends on your personal opinion.
[12:53] <xubuntu00w> I have a very old laptop bought in 2005 which was running on windows xp till now. Acer Travelmate 2420, Intel Celeron M 1.5 Ghz processor, single core, 2 gb ram and 40 gb hdd.
[12:53] <xubuntu00w> I am new to Linux and unable to decide on the best Linux distro for this laptop.
[12:53] <bekks> So try it out yourself.
[12:54] <xubuntu00w> When is the next version of Ubuntu going to be released after 16.10?
[12:54] <bekks> And you are crossposting the same questions as user LinuxNovice in #ubuntu, and you already got your answer.
[12:55] <bekks> Six months later.
[12:55] <xubuntu00w> ok. Is it going to be significantly different than 16.10?
[12:56] <bekks> Read the changelog once it is released.
[12:57] <bekks> xubuntu00w: No need for unasked unwanted queries.
[12:57] <xubuntu00w> ok
[13:34] <xubuntu07i> Hello
[13:44] <Murii> any developers here using openAL here?
[13:44] <Murii> are you able to use, not build, openAL on xubuntu?
[16:06] <Morrog_> Good morning (UGT)
[16:07] <Morrog_> 'Middle click' on my laptop touchpad suddenly stops working from time to time. I don't know the cause yet and i don't know how to trigger it. It just happens. A reboot solves it. But i'd like a more permanent solution
[16:07] <Morrog_> Any ideas what i can do to troubleshoot this?µ
[23:47] <weems> What is a orphaned inode that I see in warning prior to xubuntu booting?


[02:39] <jgamio> hi does the xubuntu meeting finshed ?
[08:35] <highvoltage> @schedule EDT
[03:06] <evand> @schedule New_York
[03:06] <ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 28 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 29 Jun 07:00: MOTU Team | 03 Jul 15:00: Technical Board | 04 Jul 16:00: Edubuntu | 05 Jul 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jul 11:00: Kernel Team
[03:07] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[03:07] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 29 Jun 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 29 Jun 21:00: MOTU Team | 04 Jul 05:00: Technical Board | 05 Jul 06:00: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Jul 01:00: Kernel Team
[03:07] <Hobbsee> hi evand
[03:07] <Hobbsee> 2 hours.  hmmm.
[03:08] <Mithrandir> *sigh*; I was sure it was later today.
[03:08] <evand> good whateveritisdownthere Hobbsee
[03:09] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: awww
[03:09] <Hobbsee> evand: evening.  it's 11pm
[03:09] <evand> ah, good evening then
[04:51] <mdz> good day, all
[04:52] <fabbione> hello
[04:52] <seb128> hey mdz
[04:52] <evand> hi
[04:52] <pitti> pong
[04:52] <BenC> mdz: hey
[04:52] <bdmurray> hullo
[04:53] <ogra> whoops ...
[04:53] <kylem> er, early
[04:53] <calc> hello
[04:53] <BenC> kylem, rtg_: ping
[04:54] <kylem> slow.
[04:54] <rtg_> I'm here.
[04:54] <heno> hello
[04:54] <BenC> cool, kernel team accounted for
[04:54] <rtg_> BenC: Is your clock fast?
[04:55] <BenC> I've got that amd64 fast clock bug in my brain today
[04:55] <dholbach> hiya
[04:56] <shawarma> o/ Hi all
[04:57] <cjwatson> hi all
[04:57] <dendrobates> hey y'all :-D
[04:57] <mdz> mathiaz,kees: ping
[04:58] <mathiaz> mathiaz: pong
[04:58] <mdz> mathiaz: oh, hi
[04:58] <cjwatson> doko is excused due to a rehearsal
[04:58] <cjwatson> everyone else on my team here
[04:58] <mathiaz> hi all
[04:58] <kylem> i'm actually here, despite the agenda.
[04:58] <dendrobates> mathiaz: in France?
[04:58] <mathiaz> dendrobates: yes
[04:59] <cjwatson> yes, the calendar is mistaken about kyle's travel plans
[04:59] <mathiaz> dendrobates: seems that they have internet connection in this country
[04:59] <kylem> cjwatson, "travel" heh, it's like 15 minutes that-way.
[04:59] <kylem> ;-)
[05:00] <mdz> anyone seen Keybuk recently?
[05:00] <stgraber> hello
[05:00] <pitti> mdz: summoning powers :)
[05:01] <kylem> Keybuk, got your mail sorted?
[05:01] <kwwii> hi
[05:02] <mdz> ok, let's get started
[05:02] <mdz> it's good to see everyone!  feels like a long time
[05:02] <Keybuk> kylem: nope, nowhere near
[05:02] <kylem> Keybuk, bummer.
[05:02] <mdz> I was traveling and then on holiday, glad to be back though
[05:03] <mdz> today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070628
[05:03] <mdz> it looks like no agenda items were submitted in summary activity this week
[05:03] <kylem> i think shawarma has one. heh.
[05:03] <shawarma> Yeah.
[05:03] <mdz> I guess that means no one has any problems at all! ;-)
[05:03] <Riddell> hi
[05:04] <shawarma> We're getting more and more requests for updated Dapper install CD's since a lot of new, fancy SCSI and RAID controllers aren't support.
[05:04] <mdz> I echo pitti's hearty appreciation for the efforts which went into tribe 2
[05:04] <cjwatson> shawarma: coincidentally ... ;-)
[05:04] <pitti> wow
[05:04] <mdz> shawarma: Ubuntu 6.06.2 is under discussion right now
[05:04] <keescook> hug-powered!
[05:05] <mdz> shawarma: tentative target is August
[05:05] <shawarma> mdz: Oh, really? Where do I join the fun?
[05:05] <cjwatson> probably late Aug
[05:05] <Hobbsee> yay pitti!
[05:05] <agoliveira> I've helped a bit and could follow closelly the huge effort as well! Well done!
[05:05] <cjwatson> the main thing to do for 6.06.2 is to identify what should go into it
[05:06] <fabbione> i did propose to have a session at UDS to discuss exactly this problem
[05:06] <cjwatson> we've been circulating a couple of ideas but have only *just* got started
[05:06] <BenC> maybe we should create a linux-backports-modules-2.6.15 for dapper
[05:06] <fabbione> but the session was never scheduled
[05:06] <mdz> what we likely want is a list of targeted bugs
[05:07] <shawarma> Where has this discussio been going on? (i.e. which mailing list have I failed to subscribe to?)
[05:07] <mdz> shawarma: no, a very preliminary discussion just began with a few people via private mail
[05:07] <BenC> Could the server team come up with a list of network and storage drivers with bug numbers?
[05:07] <asac> will 6.06.2 be a release update ... or a new branch that will coexist?
[05:07] <cjwatson> asac: the former
[05:07] <mdz> to collect input on how the process will work
[05:07] <kylem> BenC, the problem primarily is how to re-qualify the release.
[05:08] <kylem> backporting subsystems is *guaranteed* to break working configs.
[05:08] <cjwatson> we definitely need to bear in mind support for people upgrading dapper
[05:08] <BenC> I don't want to backport subsystems for sure :)
[05:08] <cjwatson> adding hardware support in stable releases has been a thorny topic in the past, to say the very least
[05:08] <BenC> network controllers are pretty easy, and scsi is not bad...sata will likely be a no-go though
[05:08] <pitti> we already had that discussion on the ML, and the basic outcome was that it was too crazy/too much work/not doable at all, right?
[05:08] <mdz> kylem: we'll consider the needs on a case-by-case basis, and determine what needs to be done
[05:09] <mdz> kylem: things which are too risky for the benefit they provide will have to be put aside
[05:09] <cjwatson> I don't think we can promise to support everyone's new+shiny hardware in 6.062
[05:09] <mdz> as always for SRUs
[05:09] <amitk> Greg K-H wrote abot this very thing the other day: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/enterprise_kernel_future.html
[05:09] <BenC> yeah, I read that
[05:09] <kylem> amitk, yeah, greg, arjan and i talked a bit about this at the LF summit
[05:09] <BenC> pretty much describes the problems we have, like any distro
[05:09] <agoliveira> SRUs?
[05:09] <pitti> BenC: linux-backports-modules-2.6.15 sounds much better wrt. breaking existing setups; that will limit the type of drivers which can be backported at all, right?
[05:10] <dholbach> agoliveira: stable release updates
[05:10] <BenC> not much help in that document though :)
[05:10] <kylem> this was a big session with vendors at LF.
[05:10] <agoliveira> Thanks
[05:10] <mdz> BenC: yeah, only his solution fails to mention the 'con' of 'new upstream kernels are full of regressions'
[05:10] <shawarma> cjwatson: I'm just afraid we'll lose ground due to lacking hardware support in our LTS's.
[05:10] <shawarma> The alternative is more frequent LTS's, but that brings in entirely different issues.
[05:10] <pitti> cjwatson: and TBH we should never even publicly announce this as a goal
[05:10] <kylem> mdz, did you catch that session?
[05:10] <mdz> kylem: no, I'm afraid not
[05:10] <kylem> mdz, yeah, i think it was friday afternoon.
[05:10] <kylem> basically it was vendor versus distro bitchfest 2007
[05:11] <BenC> pitti: yeah, limits it to just drivers, no subsystems, unless we get frisky too drop new subsystem replacements in updates/, which is probably bad :)
[05:11] <agoliveira> kylem: very well put :-D
[05:11] <kylem> greg summarizes it pretty well in that blog entry though.
[05:11] <mdz> so, to come back to 6.06.2
[05:11] <mdz> the answer is, stay tuned, we'll begin the process soon
[05:11] <pitti> BenC: agreed; so we can backport drivers which don't depend so heavily on big and/or changing kernel ABIs; if that covers wifis and graphics drivers (nvidia/fglrx), that's already something
[05:12] <mdz> I want to take advantage of this cycle to formalize the process a bit more and get it documented
[05:12] <kylem> wifi is one of the biggest problems.
[05:12] <BenC> mdz: for kernel side, I propose a linux-backports-modules-2.6.15, with appropriate meta packages...anything beyond that is too much work/testing for an Aug release
[05:12] <mdz> BenC: that unfortunately doesn't solve the problem, which is that people can't install
[05:12] <BenC> mdz: make that package default on the CD?
[05:12] <mdz> s/the/an important/
[05:12] <fabbione> we will need appropriate changes to the installer to
[05:12] <cjwatson> BenC: then for 6.06.3 we'd need a linux-backports-backports-modules-2.6.15
[05:12] <BenC> just need to seed it and include it
[05:13] <cjwatson> for the stuff that breaks people using the previous set of backports
[05:13] <mdz> BenC: we're not going to spec out a technical solution here; it is a big hairy mess
[05:13] <BenC> cjwatson: why? Just update the same package?
[05:13] <cjwatson> for the same reason we don't install l-b-m by default in the first place
[05:13] <shawarma> cjwatson: which was.. ?
[05:13] <shawarma> cjwatson: fear of breaking stuff that already works?
[05:13] <cjwatson> we plan to put stuff in it that may well break people's working setups
[05:13] <shawarma> Right.
[05:14] <shawarma> hrm..
[05:14] <cjwatson> the entire reason to put something in l-b-m is that it shouldn't go in a regular kernel update
[05:14] <BenC> if we fear it that much, then we are saying we can't do it at all for .02?
[05:14] <mdz> please, guys
[05:14] <pitti> shawarma: a module could then be autoloaded in favor of another one which was used before
[05:14] <mdz> this is not the time to argue technical details
[05:14] <BenC> ok
[05:14] <mdz> I will circulate a plan and ask for comments on it
[05:14] <shawarma> pitti: Sure.
[05:14] <mdz> and we'll take it from there
[05:14] <shawarma> \o/
[05:15] <cjwatson> done
[05:15] <mdz> are Canonical folks all sorted for the sprint?
[05:15] <cjwatson> oh, I still need to book the train travel
[05:15] <agoliveira> Yep
[05:15] <fabbione> yeo
[05:15] <cjwatson> (all 15 of it)
[05:15] <dendrobates> mdz: yep
[05:15] <Riddell> do we have a page to put agenda items?
[05:15] <shawarma> Yup.
[05:15] <keescook> mdz: yup
[05:15] <calc> yes
[05:16] <Riddell> (I can't think of any just now but if it do)
[05:16] <iwj> cjwatson: It's no cheaper to book if I'm not mistaken.
[05:16] <asac> yes
[05:16] <kylem> cjwatson, get keybuk to fly you in? :)
[05:16] <shawarma> Riddell: It's on the sprint page on the wiki.
[05:16] <Keybuk> kylem: unlikely with the current UK weather :-/
[05:16] <Keybuk> I can't fly above clouds
[05:16] <cjwatson> iwj: it would get clan off my back ;-)
[05:16] <asac> agoliveira: dito :)
[05:16] <pitti> looking forward to it
[05:16] <fabbione> what's the name of the hotel btw?
[05:16] <mdz> ok, good
[05:16] <iwj> pitti: The snoring ?
[05:16] <agoliveira> asac: You're screwed :-D
[05:17] <Keybuk> fabbione: Rochester Grand iirc
[05:17] <Keybuk> it's a nice little place
[05:17] <BenC> mdz: how should I coordinate setting aside time for canonica-qa/kernel-team and such?
[05:17] <pitti> iwj: absolutely :) seb128 doesn't snore fortunately
[05:17] <fabbione> Keybuk: ok, there are directions but no name :)
[05:17] <Keybuk> Rochester Grange, sorry
[05:17] <mdz> heno: do you want to raise any questions here regarding workflow for bugs, especially escalations?
[05:17] <shawarma> Riddell: Beneath the list of people.
[05:17] <mdz> BenC: GMTA
[05:17] <Keybuk> http://www.grangehotels.com/grange_rochester_hotel/index.htm
[05:17] <fabbione> Keybuk: thanks
[05:17] <Riddell> shawarma: oh yes
[05:18] <heno> mdz: no I think I'll do that in individual conversations, thanks
[05:18] <Keybuk> (at least, I'm assuming that's where we are -- claire hasn't actually confirmed yet)
[05:18] <mdz> ok
[05:18] <pitti> thanks for that, I'll need it for directions from Gatwick
[05:18] <iwj> Oh, no, cjwatson got there first.
[05:18] <Keybuk> pitti: I've already added directions from all major airports to the wiki ;)
[05:18] <fabbione> Keybuk: directions looks like KK, but there are a bunch of hotels there..
[05:18] <pitti> Keybuk: ah, sweet
[05:18] <amitk> mdz: has Intel confirmed that they will be sending people?
[05:18] <mdz> amitk: yes
[05:19] <amitk> benc: in that case we need to schedule some time with them as well?
[05:19] <agoliveira> amit:At least for 2 or 3 days there'll be some of them with us.
[05:19] <mdz> amitk: add it to the wiki page just to keep it on the radar
[05:19] <BenC> amitk: yep
[05:20] <shawarma> I have an e-mail where it says PArk Plaza Riverside?
[05:20] <mdz> there will be plenty of UME work to be done in any caes
[05:20] <mdz> case
[05:20] <mdz> Keybuk: no, it's a different hotel
[05:20] <mdz> clan will update the wiki page
[05:20] <Keybuk> mdz: yeah, I just asked and found that out :p
[05:20] <Keybuk> the map on the wiki says the rochester, which is what confused me
[05:21] <mdz> that's the general "office and stuff nearby" map
[05:21] <dendrobates> shawarma: me too, is the server team in a different hotel?
[05:21] <mdz> shawarma: same
[05:21] <agoliveira> BTW, is this hotel far from the office? Can we go by foot?
[05:21] <kylem> re: sprint; is the heathrow express worth the 15GBP?
[05:21] <mdz> dendrobates: everyone is in the park plaza riverside as far as I'm aware
[05:21] <shawarma> dendrobates: That would be rather silly. :)
[05:21] <Keybuk> kylem: no, takes you to the wrong train station
[05:21] <fabbione> kylem: no, subway > *
[05:21] <Keybuk> kylem: paddington is an arse to get anywhere from
[05:22] <cjwatson> I'm just checking into the details but I doubt the Stansted Express is worth it either
[05:22] <agoliveira> fabbione: tube ;)
[05:22] <kylem> Keybuk, yeah but i want to take a picture of the bear statue :P
[05:22] <iwj> cjwatson: Err, the Stansted Express and the Gatwick Express are much more sensible.  They're basically mostly normal trains.
[05:22] <calc> url/address for PPR?
[05:22] <Keybuk> Gatwick Express is utterly non-sensible
[05:22] <Keybuk> it's twice as much as the ordinary train, and almost identical times to the same station
[05:23] <Keybuk> and isn't any nicer
[05:23] <mdz> inquiries regarding the sprint should be directed first to the wiki, and then to clan (with a wiki update for any new information obtained via the latter)
[05:23] <cjwatson> iwj: hmm, ok. seems to take you into Liverpool Street though which probably isn't ideal
[05:23] <mdz> it looks a little out of date, but that should be fixed soon
[05:24] <iwj> cjwatson: Oh, yes.
[05:24] <mdz> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+specs shows a lot of unknown statuses
[05:25] <mdz> please remember to update LP with your progress, so as not to give the impression of falling behind
[05:25] <Mithrandir> I'll nag the Intel guys to do so for their specs too
[05:25] <Mithrandir> (for mobile)
[05:25] <mdz> thanks
[05:25] <pitti> mdz: what status to give to an informational spec like bzr-best-practices? (this is cuurently 'unknown')
[05:26] <agoliveira> They have being working on them latelly.
[05:26] <agoliveira> I mean, the Intel guys.
[05:26] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: oh, sure, they just need to update the status of the spec.
[05:26] <mdz> pitti: for an informational spec, it should be the progress of the writeup.  if it's published and appropriately linked, it's implemented
[05:26] <pitti> mdz: alright, thanks
[05:26] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: I'm not unhappy with their progress, just with not knowing the status.
[05:26] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Righto
[05:27] <mdz> are there any questions or issues with spec progress or reporting?
[05:28] <mdz> feature freeze is 16 August
[05:28] <Mithrandir> Mobile are behind on writeups, but I'm prodding people to have them ready, hopefully this week.
[05:28] <Keybuk> (suggests a 1 minute panic'd silence :p)
[05:28] <mdz> right, mobile got a late start for reasons beyond our control, and is playing catch-up
[05:29] <mdz> server projects were also off to a late start, but the team is working steadily as well (thanks!)
[05:29] <shawarma> \o/
[05:30] <shawarma> Go us!
[05:30] <shawarma> :)
[05:30] <iwj> I can't seem to find this mail about the sprint hotel address.
[05:30] <shawarma> iwj: I got it early because I've got sprint next week, too.
[05:30] <Keybuk> iwj: there isn't a mail yet
[05:30] <mdz> iwj: clan is on it, don't worry
[05:30] <agoliveira> shawarma: That's self confidence!
[05:30] <shawarma> iwj: Server sprint, that is.
[05:30] <agoliveira> ;)
[05:30] <iwj> Oh, OK, that's fine then.  Just so long as it hadn't got lost ...
[05:31] <mdz> ok, is there any other business for the meeting?
[05:31] <mdz> is there anything deeply buried in my inbox I should be aware of?
[05:31] <mdz> (I'm almost caught up, actually)
[05:31] <ogra> does anyone know whats up with -changes ?
[05:32] <mdz> not quite, but the appropriate LP folks have been informed and are working on it
[05:32] <fabbione> it works?
[05:32] <ogra> it seems to flip/flop between Changed By ad MAintaianer adresses at the moment
[05:32] <mdz> ogra: known issue
[05:32] <Riddell> mdz: your UDS e-mail wasn't clear to me, are we ment to forward names of invitees?
[05:32] <fabbione> ogra: if you did an upload with Closes LP: #1234, check with with cprov. some of them have gone lost
[05:32] <mdz> Riddell: yes
[05:32] <pitti> ogra: I reported it to the soyuz guys already
[05:33] <Riddell> mdz: ok
[05:33] <pitti> fabbione: I mailed u-d-a@ about it actually
[05:33] <ogra> well, i only noticed the Maintainer being used ... but just saw the flip/flop today, so i thought i should mention it :)
[05:33] <fabbione> pitti: ok
[05:33] <pitti> ogra: hm, did it actually change *back* to Maintainer?
[05:33] <fabbione> pitti: mail is not around yet...
[05:34] <mdz> pitti: yes, it's behaving strangely.  but known.
[05:34] <ogra> well i see a bunch that uses Maintainer ...
[05:34] <mdz> sounds like we can safely wrap up the meeting, then
[05:34] <ogra> and then there are dokos uploads :)
[05:34] <pitti> fabbione: it was days ago already
[05:34] <fabbione> pitti: i am talking to the uploads it lost today?
[05:34] <pitti> fabbione: that would be news to me
 fabbione: yes, something went wrong in soyuz when closing the respective bug
[05:35] <pitti> fabbione: doesn't it close bugs for packages that were held in the unapproved queue until thawing?
[05:35] <fabbione> this was about one hour ago
[05:35] <pitti> erk
[05:35] <fabbione> it's fixed
[05:35] <pitti> fabbione: ok, good to know
[05:35] <fabbione> but it might have lost not just my upload
[05:35] <pitti> fabbione: I only applied the fix in-place in soyuz, it might have been clobbered by  the new rollout
[05:35] <dholbach> thanks everybody :)
[05:35] <fabbione> pitti:  i don't know the details.. -ENOACCESS to the toys
[05:36] <mdz> right. back to your regularly scheduled soyuz chatter. :-)
[05:36] <mdz> adjourned, thanks everyone
[05:36] <fabbione> bye bye
[05:36] <pitti> thanks everyone
[05:36] <evand> thanks
[05:36] <agoliveira> Bye all
[05:36] <ogra> thanks
[05:36] <keescook> bye
[05:36] <asac> thanks all
[05:36] <kwwii> bye all
[05:36] <pitti> that was easy today :)
[05:36] <mvo> bye!
[05:36] <mathiaz> bye all
[05:36] <BenC> bye everyone....good job on tribe-2
[05:36] <dendrobates> bye
[05:36] <amitk> bye
[05:40] <bryce> cya!
[12:03] <AndyP> @schedule london
[12:03] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 29 Jun 12:00: MOTU Team | 03 Jul 20:00: Technical Board | 04 Jul 21:00: Edubuntu | 05 Jul 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jul 16:00: Kernel Team | 11 Jul 13:00: Edubuntu


[14:55] <frickler> did cloud-init change the handling of ssh-keys recently(ish)? I'm having trouble getting multiple keys into my xenial instance. with cirros-0.3.4 this is working fine
[15:06] <smoser> frickler, hm.. i dont think so
[15:48] <frickler> smoser: right, so this is a semi-bug, but seems to have existed for quite some time. .ssh/authorized_keys works quite fine with entries containing only keytype and keyhash, but no description after that
[15:49] <smoser> yeah. i think that was fixed actually to ugh
[15:49] <frickler> cloud-init seems to choke on that, though, and pastes the second key in the same line after the first one
[15:56] <smoser> frickler, you're right. i must have mis-remembered. maybe there is an open bug on this.
[15:58] <frickler> smoser: I'll do some more testing and create a new one if necessary, thx


[03:41] <CIA-34> ubiquity: superm1 * r4271 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py): merge my maverick-post-beta-fixes branch
[05:57] <NCommander> bah, no evand :-/
[05:58] <NCommander> cjwatson: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/628582 - do you know who would be able to hack on ubi-partman the best? I think its evand2, but I'm not 100% sure.
[05:58] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 628582 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity attempts to use x86-specific methods on port architectures. (affects: 1) (heat: 10)" [High,Confirmed]
[06:10] <StevenK> NCommander: ev is here?
[06:24] <NCommander> StevenK: he shouldn't be?
[06:27] <StevenK> NCommander: Well, as in he's actually connected, I mean.
[06:28] <NCommander> StevenK: I have no idea :-/. The only thing I know he's not here
[07:09] <ev> you rang?
[07:09]  * ev looks into the bug
[07:14] <ev> NCommander: working on a fix now.
[07:38] <NCommander> ev: thanks
[07:40] <NCommander> ev: when you have a usable patch, I'll test it
[07:40] <ev> thanks!
[07:49] <CIA-34> ubiquity: evand * r4272 trunk/debian/changelog: Fix changelog.
[07:50] <ev> I tagged 4270 as 2.3.15
[07:50] <ev> my bad for not debcommit -r'ing
[07:52] <NCommander> ev: when did ubi-partman get rewritten? I don't remember it being so grub happy (so to speak)
[07:52] <ev> NCommander: the grub stuff wasn't added that long ago.  We needed some place to put setting the grub options after I got rid of the summary page.
[07:54] <NCommander> ev: ah. We haven't been using ubiquity on ARM until last week pretty mcuh which is why this sailed under the radar
[07:54] <NCommander> kinda suprising it didn't get caught by a powerpc tester (though I think they have grub2 now)
[07:58] <ev> indeed, yet another reason for me to lean on IS to give me space in the Millbank datacenter for my installer testing stuff.
[08:13] <ev> NCommander: give this a try - http://paste.ubuntu.com/487667/
[08:28] <NCommander> ev: well, considering our DC doesn't (or didn't) have anything we support w.r.t. to installation for a long time, access to the porting box might be of questionable use :-)
[08:30] <NCommander> ev: I can't do a full install ATM since I can't afford to wipe out my development environment, but hopefully I can at least make sure the manual partitioner starts
[08:30] <NCommander> ev: also, any idea why the ubiquity icon no longer shows up in UNE? :-0?
[08:30] <NCommander> *:-)?
[08:31] <ev> not sure
[08:31] <ev> someone touched casper in a bad way?
[08:38] <NCommander> ev: hrm. do we still pop up the installer at boot, which gives the option then to boot into the live enviornment?
[08:38]  * NCommander admits it might have been awhile since I last reinstalled on x86 :-)
[08:40] <ev> we boot into a stripped down environment with the installer running in greeter mode (maybe-ubiquity kernel command line option) by default
[08:40] <ev> you can either hit "try ubuntu" from there, or press a key at boot when you see the man = keyboard icon, then manually select "try ubuntu"
[08:42] <NCommander> ev: right, ok, I think somewhere along the line we forgot to implement this on ARM :-)
[08:42] <NCommander> ev: sounds like I need to take a cluebat to the kernel command line on d-cd
[08:43] <ev> oh, I spot a bug in this
[08:43] <ev> heh
[08:44] <ev> NCommander: updated - http://paste.ubuntu.com/487680/
[08:47] <NCommander> ev: bah, I already built the last patch
[08:47] <ev> sorry about that
[08:47] <NCommander> -p0 -R is handy though
[08:48] <ev> you can always just manually patch it once in the live environment, assuming you have network
[08:49] <NCommander> ev: you assume much :-/
[08:54]  * NCommander feels like ubiquity's build time has gotten longer than it used to be
[08:57] <ev> haha
[08:57] <ev> and yeah, that's mostly due to the keyboard page
[08:57] <ev> it needs to generate a decision tree for the keyboard guessing stuff
[08:57] <ev> and a few other additions, I'm sure
[08:59] <NCommander> ev: hr, how long until ubiquity becomes self-aware
[09:00] <ev> hahaha, don't worry, it uses GTK. It may become self-aware, but it can never be particularly smart.
[09:04] <NCommander> ev: but doesn't it also have a Qt GUI for KDE? It seems to me it has hybird viality, and thus might combine the traits frm both parents
[09:04] <ev> good point
[09:04] <ev> we're all screwed
[09:06] <NCommander> ev: hrm, maybe we can just add a Win32 backend, and hope the GTK and QT strains self-destruct.
[09:07] <ev> lol
[09:08]  * NCommander is vaguely reminded of the Andromeda Strain for some reason ...
[09:13] <NCommander> ev, ok built
[09:15] <ev> cool
[09:23] <NCommander> ev: bah, my image must be stale or something cause it can't resolve depends
[09:24] <NCommander> ev: *grumble*, I think this might be a case of merge blindly cause I can't test until Monday, but GrueMaster can
[09:29] <ev> okay
[09:30] <ev> well I've tested it in both the gtk and kde frontends, monkeypatching archdetect to return something non-x86 and it seems to work fine
[09:30] <ev> committing, but do give it a go when you can
[09:30] <rnewson> I'm having a problem with the display during a PXE boot of ubuntu server 10.04. Specifically, the screen is scrambled (I'm viewing it over HP's execrable iLo). the usual trick of fb=false works for a Debian 5.0 PXE boot, but not ubuntu. The menu portion is fine, but when it switches over to the first install question, it's unreadable. Is this the right channel for my question?
[09:57] <CIA-34> ubiquity: evand * r4273 trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs):
[09:57] <CIA-34> ubiquity: Do not generate or show the bootloader options if we're on x86, or
[09:57] <CIA-34> ubiquity: bootloader installation is explicitly disabled (LP: #628582).
[10:41] <CIA-34> grub-installer: cjwatson * r860 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog grub-installer):
[10:41] <CIA-34> grub-installer: Don't ask for a boot device on EFI, and don't pass a boot device
[10:41] <CIA-34> grub-installer: argument to grub-install.
[10:49] <CIA-34> grub-installer: cjwatson * r861 ubuntu/ (10 files in 3 dirs): merge from Debian 1.55
[10:53] <CIA-34> grub-installer: cjwatson * r862 ubuntu/debian/po/te.po: debconf-updatepo
[10:59] <CIA-34> grub-installer: cjwatson * r863 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.55ubuntu1
[11:14] <CIA-34> ubiquity: cjwatson * r4274 ubiquity/ (18 files in 7 dirs): Remove a number of unused or duplicate imports.
[13:29] <CIA-34> partman-efi: cjwatson * r652 ubuntu/ (34 files in 3 dirs): merge from Debian 21
[13:42] <CIA-34> partman-efi: cjwatson * r653 ubuntu/ (fstab.d fstab.d/efi debian/changelog debian/install):
[13:42] <CIA-34> partman-efi: Automatically mount the first method=efi filesystem we see on /boot/efi.
[13:42] <CIA-34> partman-efi: (This replaces previous code in partman-basicfilesystems, which didn't
[13:42] <CIA-34> partman-efi: work since method=efi partitions don't have an acting_filesystem.)
[13:43] <CIA-34> partman-basicfilesystems: cjwatson * r589 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog fstab.d/basic):
[13:43] <CIA-34> partman-basicfilesystems: Revert changes in 63ubuntu6, since method=efi filesystems don't have an
[13:43] <CIA-34> partman-basicfilesystems: acting_filesystem. Responsibility for mounting /boot/efi now lies with
[13:43] <CIA-34> partman-basicfilesystems: partman-efi.
[13:45] <CIA-34> partman-efi: cjwatson * r654 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 21ubuntu1
[13:46] <CIA-34> partman-basicfilesystems: cjwatson * r590 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 63ubuntu7
[15:14] <tjaalton> cjwatson: there's a new kernel in lucid-proposed, and I'd like to see if it makes installations on ext4 faster. so it needs a rebuild of d-i for proposed?
[15:15] <cjwatson> yes, it would
[15:15] <cjwatson> give me a minute
[15:15] <tjaalton> no rush :)
[15:15] <tjaalton> next week is fine
[15:16] <tjaalton> i'm not sure if the kernel is accepted yet
[15:16] <cjwatson> 2.6.32-25.43?
[15:17] <tjaalton> yep
[15:17] <tjaalton> with the current one it takes roughly double the time to install, compared to ext3
[15:17] <CIA-34> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1304 lucid-proposed/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Move to 2.6.32-25 kernels.
[15:18] <tjaalton> wow
[15:18] <CIA-34> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1305 lucid-proposed/ (build/config/armel/dove.cfg debian/changelog): Move Dove images to 2.6.32-209 kernels.
[15:19] <CIA-34> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1306 lucid-proposed/debian/changelog: releasing version 20081029ubuntu102.4
[15:20] <tjaalton> great, thanks.. I'll test it first thing on monday
[16:27] <ScottK> cjwatson and ev: When there are ubiquit-kde changes that you'd like someone else to test, just let me know.  I've planned on using my netbook as a sacrifial lamb until release.
[16:27] <ev> lol, okay
[16:27] <ev> I've been doing the same, but always good to get another set of eyes on these things
[16:28] <ev> I'm working on the missing resize option and poor text now, by the way
[16:28] <ev> I don't think I'll have it done by end of day though
[16:29] <cjwatson> ev: is there a way to force usb-creator to treat a hard disk as a target USB stick?
[16:29] <cjwatson> for the purposes of installing within KVM
[16:32] <ev> cjwatson: it relies on udisks to make the determination of whether or not something is removable ('device-is-system-internal').  There's no command line option in usb-creator currently to override that check, but patches welcome.
[16:33] <ev> cjwatson: it's checked in bin/usb-creator-helper and usbcreator/backends/udisks/backend.py
[16:33] <cjwatson> system-internal.  thank you.  that was the keyword I was missing
[16:33] <cjwatson> I can just obliterate that check locally
[16:33] <superm1> so i'm considering moving the dell recovery and installation disks to GRUB for boot early, without a graphical menu to simplify the necessity for all sorts of other tools conffiles that explain how to boot when coming from a different scenario (linld, isolinux, syslinux).  cjwatson and ev could you let me know if https://code.launchpad.net/~superm1/usb-creator/grub-support/+merge/34504 looks sane for 10.10?
[16:33] <cjwatson> I replied to that merge
[16:34] <cjwatson> ... I swear I did
[16:34] <ev> cjwatson: feel free to commit directly to trunk, by the way.  I'd like to create the illusion of a team project here as much as possible ;)
[16:35] <cjwatson> superm1: I'll bounce you the mail I sent, since codehosting seems to be sitting on it.
[16:35] <superm1> okay works for me
[16:38] <ev> cjwatson: by the way, do you have any preferred approach to the 'teaching jockey about passthrough' problem?  I was thinking adding a -o option to make it pretend to be an apt frontend by accepting apt options, then passing them along.  It could then presumably be run under debconf-apt-progress.
[16:38] <cjwatson> could it just notice that it's running under a debconf frontend already
[16:38] <cjwatson> ?
[16:39] <cjwatson> oh, yeah, maybe debconf-apt-progress would be neater
[16:41] <ev> notice its running under a debconf frontend> I'm not sure how much flexibility we have there, as it uses python-apt to do the heavy lifting.
[16:41] <ev> but forgive me if I'm missing the obvious
[16:44] <cjwatson> ah
[16:48] <ara> one question, guys, it is just a simple, non-relevant, non-urgent... just  a simple question
[16:48] <ev> sure
[16:48] <ara> is there any reason why the installer logs are only root-readable after the installation?
[16:48] <ev> heh
[16:49] <ev> http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-262-1
[16:50] <ara> wow, that's a good reason :D
[16:50] <ara> thanks!
[16:50] <ev> sure thing
[16:50] <ev> mind you, that's only /var/log/installer/debug
[16:52] <ev> oh, perhaps not
[16:52] <cjwatson> the original vulnerability leaked it to a saved copy of cdebconf/questions.dat
[16:53] <cjwatson> and now we err on the safe side because we never ever ever want to have to deal with that again :)
[16:54] <CIA-34> ubiquity: evand * r4275 trunk/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-timezone.py): Add correct URL for the Geonames service.
[16:58] <cjwatson> ev: also, why are you not allowed to make a USB stick from a real CD?
[16:58] <cjwatson> as in stype == SOURCE_CD
[17:00] <ev> you should be able to
[17:00] <ev> if it's not appearing it's a bug (most likely due to the fact that I don't have a working computer with a built-in CD-ROM)
[17:03] <cjwatson>         if status == CAN_USE and stype in (SOURCE_IMG, SOURCE_ISO):
[17:03]  * cjwatson adds SOURCE_CD to that tuple
[17:03] <ev> thanks
[17:04] <cjwatson> though can stype have any values other than those three?
[17:04] <cjwatson> i.e. should the and clause just be deleted?
[17:05] <ScottK> ev: Once you've renamed "Guided" in ubiquity-kde (or once you know what you are going to call it), please let me know so I can work on getting a test case for it with QA.
[17:05] <ev> sure thing
[17:06] <ScottK> Thanks.
[17:06] <ev> cjwatson: indeed, not sure why that was done
[17:07] <cjwatson> I'll drop it then
[17:07] <ev> much appreciated
[17:09] <cjwatson> oddly, I don't see any bugs about this
[17:11] <CIA-34> usb-creator: cjwatson * r319 trunk/ (debian/changelog usbcreator/frontends/gtk/frontend.py):
[17:11] <CIA-34> usb-creator: GTK frontend: don't grey out "Make Startup Disk" when the source is a
[17:11] <CIA-34> usb-creator: physical CD.
[17:14] <cjwatson> ev: built-in CD> I was actually using 'kvm -monitor stdio -m 512 -hda oem-usb-20100903.img -cdrom maverick-desktop-i386.iso -boot d'
[17:14] <cjwatson> then 'kvm -monitor stdio -m 512 -hda oem-usb-20100903.img -hdb oem-20100903.img -boot c' to boot using it
[17:15] <ev> ah cool, I'll give that a shot
[17:15] <cjwatson> first time I've tried this approach, but it seems to be working
[17:15] <ev> thanks for the tip
[17:15] <ev> I take it that's why you wanted to write to regular disks
[17:15] <cjwatson> and indeed you can then 'kvm-img snapshot -c created oem-usb-20100903.img' and revert to that snapshot at any time
[17:15] <cjwatson> right
[17:16] <cjwatson> I think you *can* use -usb -usbdevice disk:oem-usb-20100903.img or some such
[17:16] <cjwatson> but I seem to remember having problems with that last time I tried; maybe it was just that you can't boot from it that way
[17:24] <ev> oo, that would be fantastic if it works
[17:25] <ev> historically, kvm's usb support has not met my expectations though
[17:25] <cjwatson> this disk-to-disk support seems fine
[17:26] <cjwatson> what the heck is this "Message: useQuirks" stuff coming from?
[17:27] <cjwatson> seems to be libwebkit?
[17:27] <superm1> libwebkit I think
[17:28] <cjwatson> and a Debian patch at that ...
[17:29] <cjwatson> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=592670
[17:29] <ubot2> Debian bug 592670 in libwebkit-1.0-2 "libwebkit-1.0-2: useQuirks message spamming" [Normal,Open]
[17:30] <cjwatson> I think I'll cherry-pick that
[17:31] <cjwatson> reproduced the oem bug this way, at least!
[17:53] <cjwatson> webkit uploaded to kill the useQuirks junk
[18:01] <ev> hooray
[22:14] <CIA-34> usb-creator: superm1 * r321 grub-support/debian/ (changelog control): Add a dependency on one of the grubs to be able to use grub-setup.
[22:15] <CIA-34> usb-creator: superm1 * r320 grub-support/ (bin/usb-creator-helper usbcreator/install.py): don't use any components from grub on the current system; assume that boot.img and core.img are in the target image and just use grub-setup to lodge them on the drive
[22:19] <cjwatson> superm1: please don't use grub-setup, use dd
[22:19] <cjwatson> it does make a difference
[22:19] <cjwatson> grub-setup fills in data at certain offsets in the core image, and those offsets are subject to change
[22:20] <superm1> Oh
[22:20] <cjwatson> the defaults for the data at those offsets should be good enough for your purposes though and you shouldn't need to do that
[22:21] <cjwatson> as long as you put boot.img at sector 0 and core.img at sector 1
[22:22] <cjwatson> and as long as the core.img is built to search for the stick rather than needing a hardcoded prefix
[22:22] <cjwatson> (which wouldn't work in this case anyway)
[22:23] <superm1> well just the first 446 of boot.img though, to avoid nuking the partition table
[22:23] <cjwatson> right
[22:24] <cjwatson> maybe in the future we should have grub-setup options that guarantee not to modify core.img
[22:24] <cjwatson> but you won't be able to rely on that for a while anyway
[22:25] <superm1> I didn't look that much at grub-setup source, here I thought it didn't touch it
[22:30] <cjwatson> there are three things it changes at the moment: the blocklist at the end of the first sector of core.img, pointing to the rest of it; sometimes information on the partition numbers corresponding to the prefix; and the prefix
[22:30] <cjwatson> the reason I mention this in particular is that a change just went in upstream to move the prefix into the compressed region, so that much is basically guaranteed to change between maverick and natty
[22:30] <superm1> ah
[22:45] <CIA-34> usb-creator: superm1 * r322 grub-support/ (bin/usb-creator-helper debian/changelog debian/control): use dd rather than grub-setup