[05:56] <ardchoille> When is the next meeting to be held?
[05:56] <Palintheus> @now
[05:56] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 07 2007, 05:56:44 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 5 days
[05:56] <ardchoille> Palintheus: Ah, thanks
[05:56] <Palintheus> :)
[06:27] <kraut> moin
[20:07] <persia> Right.  Seems to be consensus that this is now the MOTU meeting, although it doesn't seem to have been scheduled anywhere :)
[20:08] <persia> No agenda though (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings), so it should be quick.
[20:08] <sistpoty> maybe we could use an announcement mail for next time (from anyone who remembers the date *g*)
[20:08] <persia> Any volunteers to take minutes?
[20:08] <sistpoty> ok
[20:08] <persia> sistpoty: Good idea.
[20:09] <persia> Any volunteers to send announcements (1 week before, 1 day before)?
[20:09]  * DktrKranz offersa
[20:09] <DktrKranz> *offers
[20:09] <sistpoty> #startmeeting
[20:09] <MootBot> Meeting started at 20:09. The chair is sistpoty.
[20:09] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:09] <sistpoty> #action sistpoty takes minutes
[20:10] <sistpoty> damn, what did I do wrong?
[20:10] <persia> [ACTION] sistpoty takes minutes
[20:10] <sistpoty> thanks
[20:10]  * persia isn't the chair, so please repeat the statement :)
[20:10] <sistpoty> [ACTION] DktrKranz will send announcement mails
[20:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  DktrKranz will send announcement mails
[20:10] <sistpoty> [ACTION] sistpoty will write minutes
[20:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sistpoty will write minutes
[20:11] <sistpoty> persia: can I hand over meeting chair to you? *g*
[20:11] <persia> sistpoty: I don't think so.  If you did, I'd post a link to the topic, and call for any other business.
[20:11] <persia> Errr..  link to the agenda (to MootBot)
[20:12] <sistpoty> persia: damn...
[20:12] <ScottK> Are we having a MOTU meeting?
[20:12] <sistpoty> ScottK: yes
[20:12] <persia> ScottK: Trying :)
[20:12] <ScottK> Great.
[20:12] <proppy> hi ScottK, hi persia
[20:12] <DktrKranz> Here's the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
[20:12] <proppy> hi all :)
[20:12] <DktrKranz> Not very much to discuss, though
[20:12] <ScottK> Should be short.
[20:13] <sistpoty> [LINK]: agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
[20:13] <MootBot> LINK received: : agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
[20:13] <geser> that's a big agenda :)
[20:13] <sistpoty> ok, any business not on the agenda? *g*
[20:13] <proppy> *agree on date and time of next meeting*
[20:13] <Nafallo> lol
[20:13] <ScottK> Any feedback on using interdiff for upgrades?
[20:13] <sistpoty> [TOPIC] ScottK: feedback on using interdiff for upgrades
[20:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  ScottK: feedback on using interdiff for upgrades
[20:14] <ScottK> Anyone?
[20:14] <persia> I've heard a few people complain, and have had a request to find something easier for sponsors.
[20:14]  * Nafallo didn't know we could :-)
[20:14] <DktrKranz> I had a couple of reviews using interdiff, and I found it of great aid
[20:15] <ScottK> persia: Could we script something for interdiff to make it easier?
[20:15] <Nafallo> oh, we are talking about debdiff stuff :-)
[20:15] <persia> ScottK: I have a rough script at http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff, but it needs a fair bit of work to be less fragile.
[20:16] <persia> (also, it calculates the same thing a couple different ways, which is wasteful)
[20:16] <sistpoty> [LINK]: http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff
[20:16] <MootBot> LINK received: : http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff
[20:17] <ScottK> persia: Maybe RainCT would work on it.  He seems to like that kind of thing.
[20:17] <persia> Err...  That's not a good home: if we stay with interdiff, someone (likely me) needs to fix it, and put it in ubuntu-dev-tools
[20:17] <persia> ScottK: Good idea.
[20:17] <ScottK> Plus he's not here, so he can't object if we assign him an action ;-)
[20:17] <sistpoty> [IDEA]: RainCT might want to work on interdiff for sponsoring
[20:17] <MootBot> IDEA received: : RainCT might want to work on interdiff for sponsoring
[20:17] <sistpoty> [IDEA]: move the script to ubuntu-dev-tools
[20:17] <MootBot> IDEA received: : move the script to ubuntu-dev-tools
[20:18] <ScottK> Once it's suitable for general use.
[20:18] <sistpoty> ok, more feedback to this topic?
[20:18] <ScottK> Not from me?
[20:18] <persia> cjwatson pointed out that the "full interdiff" isn't very interesting, and that the new diff.gz alone might be eaiser.  I just haven't tested & evaluated that yet, but I think I agree.
[20:20] <ian_brasil> hi, what is interdiff?
[20:21] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff
[20:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff
[20:21] <ScottK> I think what is wanted is diff of the debian dir + diff from the new upstream.
[20:22] <persia> ScottK: A debdiff gets that, but they need to be evaluated separately.
[20:22] <ScottK> Agreed.
[20:22] <sistpoty> ok, let's move on, shall we?
[20:23] <persia> Moving on sounds good.  I'll propose something else if I can meet all the good points that DktrKranz likes and make it easier for sponsors.
[20:23] <ScottK> Are there any MOTUs planning to support these packaging jams that Jono has proposed?
[20:23] <sistpoty> [TOPIC] supporting packaging jams
[20:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  supporting packaging jams
[20:24] <Nafallo> what's that?
[20:24] <DktrKranz> ScottK, I proposed it to our LoCo, we are planning to have a meeting where we'll discuss about it
[20:24]  * ScottK looks for jono's blog
[20:24] <persia> I tend to think of Packaging Jams as means to populate PPAs, and not to affect universe directly.
[20:25] <ian_brasil> i thought package jams were like install fests but for packaging
[20:25] <persia>  [LINK] http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1082
[20:25] <ScottK> http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1082
[20:25] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1082
[20:25] <DktrKranz> Scott's mail is good. Maybe focusing on bugfix (as Debian does) can be more helpful
[20:25] <persia> Even package updates would be better for us.
[20:25]  * ScottK is concerned he may be raising expectations urealistically.
[20:26] <ScottK> That and focusing on what most MOTUs would view as the wrong problem.
[20:26]  * sistpoty thinks that it's a great idea, which could make LoCo teams more integrated to MOTU
[20:26] <Nafallo> ah
[20:26] <ScottK> But how many LoCo teams have a local pet MOTU?
[20:27] <ian_brasil> not many i would say
[20:27] <DktrKranz> Hard to say
[20:27] <Nafallo> where local is the keyword :-)
[20:27] <sistpoty> ScottK: not many, and I'd hope that this would change
[20:27] <persia> sistpoty: We've already about 900 packages that are Ubuntu-local, with only about half receiving any maintenance.  Can't we push them towards another means of integrating?  Is there that much demand to be able to package new software?
[20:27] <ian_brasil> certainly in brazil we do not
[20:27] <Nafallo> Sweden HAD me, but we were all spread out.
[20:27] <jcastro> Packaging Jams don't have to be /new/ software.
[20:28] <Nafallo> maybe this is more the the city teams?
[20:28] <Nafallo> s/the/for/
[20:28] <persia> jcastro: Ah.  That's better then.  All the information I'd seen gave that impression.
[20:28] <jcastro> I know the one local to me (michigan) covers things like debdiffs and workflow and stuff
[20:28] <imbrandon> i'm late :(
[20:28] <geser> Ubuntu Bug Parties?
[20:28] <sistpoty> persia: imho the goal is not (or should not be) to get new software into ubuntu, but rather to knot the ties between MOTU and LoCos
[20:28] <persia> "Packaging Jam" is a fine name, as long as it's not all about packaging new software.
[20:28] <jcastro> yes, what sistpoty said!
[20:28] <persia> sistpoty: Then we agree :)
[20:29] <ScottK> sistpoty: Reading Jono's blog, I don't think he agrees.
[20:29] <imbrandon> ScottK: he does, i talked to him a bit on jabber about it, it just wasent clear in the blog
[20:29] <ScottK> Did Jono discuss this with anyone before announcing it?
[20:29] <DktrKranz> NEW software is covered by frequent REVU days, so covering unloved packages will be good, especially if we save some bugs for these sessions.
[20:30] <persia> DktrKranz: REVU only happens 30 weeks a year, which can be frustrating for people uploading the other 22.
[20:30] <persia> ScottK: Jono at least pointed at Michigan as a good example: if the practice there is debdiffs & workflow, I'm not sure it's all bad.
[20:31] <sistpoty> ScottK: I guess this boils down to the question if new packages should generally be accepted/avoided as means of getting people involved, which I'd rather discuss as a separate topic
[20:31] <imbrandon> persia: we need to make REVU more dynamic in that it checks $time-of-year and displays a notice to that effect, should be easy nuff, right sistpoty ?
[20:31] <jcastro> I think that instead of "packaging" the word should be "maintain" or something instead
[20:31] <jcastro> clearly the goal of a Jam is to find more MOTUs
[20:31] <sistpoty> imbrandon: -ENOPARSE... what should revu do?
[20:31] <persia> sistpoty: I don't think it's related to that at all.  Both are good, it's just that I (at least) would prefer bugfix as the default introduction.
[20:32] <persia> jcastro: I'd much prefer a goal to find more Contributors, who may become MOTUs.
[20:32] <jcastro> ah, good word.
[20:32] <imbrandon> sistpoty: check the time of the release ( maybe manualy set ) and display a notice about ..... i'll poke you after the meeting in #ubuntuwire
[20:32] <sistpoty> imbrandon: ok
[20:32] <ScottK> persia: I don't think it's that simple.  I think if this does result in actual work getting done, it's better for Ubuntu that it be fixing/upgrading than new packages.
[20:33] <ScottK> So if we are going to support this initiative, I think it'd be good for it to focus on what we think most needs doing.
[20:33] <persia> ScottK: I agree with jcastro that the focus is education & recruitment, rather than generating work done.
[20:33] <imbrandon> persia: EXACTLY
[20:34] <sistpoty> persia, ScottK: but we can agree that getting more contributors via loco teams is good? I think the tasks we support more or less for new contributors are a topic that not only affects loco teams, right?
[20:34] <persia> I'd prefer bugfixing / upgrades, but I've seen a few people come from NEW who did good, so I won't shoot them.
[20:34] <persia> sistpoty: Yes.
[20:34] <jcastro> it doesn't say explicitly that jams are for new packages
[20:35] <sistpoty> [IDEA] jams are a means to get people involved for MOTU
[20:35] <MootBot> IDEA received:  jams are a means to get people involved for MOTU
[20:35] <ScottK> sistpoty: I think that improving the MOTU/package ratio is good.  It doesn't follow then that all ways of getting contributors are a positive.
[20:35] <persia> ScottK: Sure, but that's rightly a separate topic/
[20:35] <imbrandon> it seems people are equating "packaging" to mean new packages only, maintaince of packages falls under "packaging" and thus "packaging jams"
[20:35] <ScottK> persia: I see it as core to how I feel about the idea.
[20:36] <persia> imbrandon: Yes.  It's entirely nomenclature.
[20:36] <imbrandon> yay \0/
[20:36] <ScottK> Well if you read the wiki about it, it's clearly orient towards new packages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam
[20:36] <sistpoty> ok, how about generalizing the current topic then to new packages vs. bug fixing for motu-hopefuls (or any better fitted title)?
[20:36] <ScottK> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam
[20:37] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam
[20:37] <imbrandon> ScottK: sure, because thats what most new contributors are intrested in, but that dosent mean they will stay with that 100%  forever etc, i started in the NEW queue :)
[20:37] <persia> s/packagers/maintainers/, s/packaging/maintenance/ ?
[20:37] <sistpoty> persia: +1
[20:37] <ScottK> imbrandon: I did too, but that isn't the best way I think.
[20:37] <persia> imbrandon: I disagree.  Most people want to help, and don't have a lot of focus.
[20:38] <ScottK> persia: Will you take an action to revise that wiki page then?
[20:38] <imbrandon> ScottK: we should still support all ways and not FORCE a contributor to do somehing they arent intrested in, thats why we have a low ratio now
[20:38] <persia> ScottK: OK.
[20:38] <ScottK> imbrandon: I totally agree with that.
[20:38] <persia> imbrandon: Yes to not forcing, no to drawing conclusions therefrom
[20:39] <ScottK> imbrandon: But I also think we should focus on people where we think we need them to work. (focus, not force).
[20:39] <sistpoty> ok, can we agree on updating the wiki? and any volunteers to get it right?
[20:39] <imbrandon> ScottK: too much focus seems like forceage lately IMHO
[20:39] <ScottK> We already have more people plunking stuff onto REVU than MOTUs can handle.
[20:39]  * jonnymind is away: Sono occupato
[20:39]  * persia volunteers to just change language, but doesn't promise "right".
[20:39] <ScottK> imbrandon: I agree and so a balance is needed.
[20:39] <ScottK> persia: Sounds good.
[20:40] <sistpoty> [AGREED] persia to update the wiki about packaging jams
[20:40] <MootBot> AGREED received:  persia to update the wiki about packaging jams
[20:40] <sistpoty> [TOPIC] new packages vs. bugfixing as a means to get hopefuls involved
[20:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  new packages vs. bugfixing as a means to get hopefuls involved
[20:41] <persia> I like both.  I would like to deemphasize NEW packaging post DIF though.
[20:41] <ScottK> We want people involved, but what we want to avoid is someone who is here to get $mypetpackage uploaded and vanishes.
[20:41] <sistpoty> ScottK: agreed
[20:41] <jcastro> those are the ones you push to ppas.
[20:42] <ScottK> or ignore.
[20:42] <proppy> getting a NEW package advocated take way more time that fixing a bug right ?
[20:42] <persia> ScottK: I'm not sure about that: there's a few upstreams who want to do Ubuntu packaging, and I don't mind if they maintain their packages, and don't otherwise do much.
[20:42] <sistpoty> what I'd really like to see is some stats on how many packages that made it through revu are well-maintained and how many not
[20:42] <persia> proppy: And it does.
[20:42] <imbrandon> ScottK: ignoring is bad, even in that sense
[20:42] <ScottK> persia: I totally agree with that.
[20:42] <ScottK> imbrandon: I'm thinking we have limited attention and can't properly attend to everyone, so we need to prioritize.
[20:42] <persia> sistpoty: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/ has a lot of your base data.  About half are forgotten.
[20:43] <Nafallo> we need to go back to the first few cycles :-). pre REVU ;-)
[20:43] <jcastro> Plus, even if we get a small fraction of "packaging jam target people" becoming MOTU short term, chances are they'll work on more MOTU-oriented thing in the future when they get more comfortable
[20:43] <imbrandon> jcastro: exactly, thats my point
[20:43] <jcastro> "ok, you've done pet package, have you looked at doing a bite size bug?" etc. etc.
[20:44] <persia> ScottK: I think we should actively process in REVU order.  For most packages, it only takes 10-20 minutes to draft a basic review of why it isn't ready.  I'd rather leave a comment & forget than ignore.
[20:44] <sistpoty> persia: where exactly? packages not in sync doesn't tell too much :/. packages w.o. watch file don't need to be orphaned.
[20:44] <ScottK> Per maintainer lookups aren't exactly helpful in Ubuntu either.
[20:44] <persia> jcastro: Good idea.  Perhaps REVU uploaders should be encouraged to subscribe to the packages they upload in Malone.
[20:44] <proppy> from an early contributor POV, when you fix a bug you get the positive feedback sooner
[20:45] <sistpoty> [IDEA] subscribe REVU uploader to packages in malone
[20:45] <persia> sistpoty: Look at packages w/o watchfile & the output of watchwiz for example.  Further, between the three links is all the packages from REVU.
[20:45] <MootBot> IDEA received:  subscribe REVU uploader to packages in malone
[20:45] <ScottK> What would be the purpose of this?
[20:45] <imbrandon> +1, this should be being done now anyhow as best practice
[20:46] <ScottK> I disagree.
[20:46] <imbrandon> ScottK: make the people that rovide $package get bugmail
[20:46] <ScottK> Ah.  I see.  I misunderstood
[20:46] <persia> ScottK: If someone packages & uploads, encouraging them to watch bugs in that package may encourage greater involvement.  Not mandatory, just encouraged.
[20:46]  * ScottK was thinking you were referring to the needs-packaging bug.
[20:46] <persia> No.  No point really.
[20:46] <ScottK> persia: Yes, that's good.  I just misundersood.
[20:47] <ScottK> The problem is that there's nothing to subscribe to until after the upload.
[20:47] <ScottK> So you have to ask them to do it after.
[20:47] <proppy> yep, maybe suscribe the dependencies :)
[20:47] <Nafallo> ScottK: there is nothing to apply a bug to before upload either :-)
[20:47] <imbrandon> ScottK: sure, you shouldent just $upload and forget about someone :)
[20:47] <persia> proppy: Less likely.  Not everyone can debug e.g. glibc
[20:47] <imbrandon> so that shouldent be an issue
[20:47] <ScottK> OK.  Good enough.
[20:48] <proppy> persia: nor python
[20:48] <persia> proppy: exactly
[20:48] <ScottK> Getting a bug point of contact (even if they can only triage) is a very good thing.
[20:48]  * persia hopes for the next topic, in anticipation of going back to sleep
[20:49] <ScottK> I'm done.  Anyone else have a topic?
[20:49] <sistpoty> ok, anyone disagrees with persia?
[20:49] <Nafallo> I think we have an agree here somewhere? :-)
[20:49] <sistpoty> hehe
[20:49] <sistpoty> any other business?
[20:49] <imbrandon> as long as its best practice and not manditiory :)
[20:49] <persia> imbrandon: No enforement mechanism, so no point in calling it "mandatory".
[20:50] <sistpoty> 3...
[20:50] <sistpoty> 2...
[20:50] <sistpoty> 1...
[20:50] <proppy> what do you think about MOTU helpfull  revu others MOTU packages
[20:50] <proppy> ?
[20:50] <proppy> (sorry)
[20:50] <sistpoty> [TOPIC] having motu hopefuls review other MOTU packages
[20:50] <ScottK> proppy: As lolng as you make it clear you're not a MOTU, I think it's great.
[20:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  having motu hopefuls review other MOTU packages
[20:50] <imbrandon> we have a bad habbit about making things "required" though before they are put into use for a while, unlike debian policys where they are used for a long time before they are policy
[20:50] <persia> proppy: It's good.  It's encouraged, and no they can't have access to REVU to do it yet.
[20:50] <proppy> and MOTU reviewing you'r review
[20:51] <sistpoty> persia: they can, but only on a individual basis
[20:51] <ScottK> proppy: If you do the review interactively on #ubuntu-motu then that happens automatically.
[20:51] <Nafallo> imbrandon: agreed.
[20:51] <persia> sistpoty: Yes, but we can't distinguish Contributor comments from MOTU comments for sort order, so it breaks the MOTU review of Contributor comments part of the goal.
[20:52] <ScottK> sistpoty: That needs to be treated as a special case and not as a general capability right now.
[20:52] <persia> proppy: If you're worried about flooding the channel, use a pastebin to write the review, and post the link to #ubuntu-motu
[20:52] <sistpoty> persia: right. but I guess someone who does a good job for some time should get review rights...
[20:52] <proppy> persia: ok
[20:52] <sistpoty> ScottK: exactly, that's what I wanted to write
[20:52] <proppy> it was just a suggestion
[20:52] <Nafallo> sistpoty: shouldn't that person be a MOTU as well then?
[20:52] <DktrKranz> I like this proposal. A non-MOTU can provide useful feedbacks, reviewer will choose to follow these advices or not.
[20:52] <ScottK> proppy: It's a good one.
[20:52] <persia> sistpoty: I disagree.  If someone is doing an excellent job of reviewing, they should be prodded to apply for MOTU.
[20:52] <proppy> maybe a threaded forum is more approriate for that than revfu
[20:53] <ScottK> persia: Think of it as a final exam.
[20:53] <sistpoty> Nafallo, persia: sure, but there are always delays, and I recall having someone grant review rights as a task of the application *g*
[20:53] <persia> ScottK: For some special cases, maybe.
[20:54] <sistpoty> I guess we all can agree that the real bug is in revu, which should get fixed, right?=
[20:54] <ScottK> And since we haven't mechanized a way to distinguish MOTU/non-MOTU comments, then a special case is all it can ever be until someone codes the changes in REVU.
[20:54] <persia> sistpoty: That might happen, but it's part of the application process, not a general case: Contributors should first prove their reviewing skills in #ubuntu-motu
[20:55] <sistpoty> persia: I guess we agree there :)
[20:55] <proppy> what about posting review in a mailing list then ?
[20:55] <sistpoty> proppy: that mailing list exists already<EMAIL_ADDRESS>;)
[20:56] <proppy> then distingish between motu and non motu is just a matter of identify ?
[20:56] <persia> proppy: Be warned that not every uploader reads that list (nor every reviewer)
[20:56] <proppy> like an @ubuntu.com email ?
[20:56] <sistpoty> motu-reviewers even
[20:56] <ScottK> proppy: The trick is the data base schem needs changing.
[20:56] <persia> proppy: Essentially.  It's not email, it's membership in ~ubuntu-dev
[20:57] <ScottK> proppy: Not all MOTUs use their ubuntu.com address.
[20:57] <sistpoty> ScottK: we could abuse the current scheme a little bit... I guess there's some space left which would require only minimal changes (but those with care *g*)
[20:57] <Nafallo> @ubuntu.com is for members, not developers.
[20:57] <proppy> ScottK: you mean not at all ?
[20:57] <proppy> ScottK: or not for reviewing business ?
[20:58] <ScottK> sistpoty: Excellent.
[20:58] <ScottK> proppy: I meant not at all.
[20:58] <proppy> ScottK: ok ne
[20:58]  * ScottK for example.
[20:58]  * persia proposes the drafting of a spec for how non-MOTUs would comment, for general review
[20:58] <sistpoty> [IDEA] fix revu to allow non-motu contributors
[20:58] <MootBot> IDEA received:  fix revu to allow non-motu contributors
[20:58] <sistpoty> persia: that would be excellent, would you take care for this?
[20:58] <proppy> thanks for feedbacks
[20:59] <persia> sistpoty: I don't understand the problem well enough: I was happy using pastebin as a Contributor.
[20:59] <persia> proppy: Would you be up for drafting a spec for how Contributors would add REVU comments?
[20:59] <ScottK> proppy: How about you make a first draft?
[20:59] <proppy> persia: np
[20:59] <imbrandon> pastebin requires IRC :(
[20:59] <persia> proppy: Thanks.
[20:59] <proppy> persia: the difference betweend pastbin and revu
[20:59] <sistpoty> persia: it would be in place reviews... debian-mentors acts quite like this
[20:59] <persia> imbrandon: I don't consider that a downside.
[20:59] <proppy> persia: is that pastebin is live
[21:00] <proppy> persia: REVU is asynchronous
[21:00] <ScottK> proppy: It alse needs to talk about how it gets decided who can review.
[21:00] <sistpoty> (the mailing list, not the webpage=
[21:00] <imbrandon> persia: i do, i know many contributors i have worked with will NOT cone to IRC
[21:00] <imbrandon> come*
[21:00] <persia> proppy: True.  I'll probably have more useful input when more awake :)
[21:00] <sistpoty> hehe
[21:00] <proppy> should I use the spec template ?
[21:01] <imbrandon> plus irc limits you to those that are in your timezone
[21:01] <imbrandon> or sleep/schedule
[21:01] <ScottK> imbrandon: Sleep is for the weak.
[21:01] <imbrandon> hehe
[21:01] <persia> proppy: That would be best.
[21:01] <sistpoty> proppy: I guess just informative text is nice.. of course you can do an "official spec" if you want ;)
[21:01] <proppy> persia: url ?
[21:01] <proppy> persia: I mean of the wanted spec
[21:02] <proppy> persia: not the template
[21:02] <imbrandon> ok i got to run, i trust someone will post the minutes to the ML ?
[21:02] <sistpoty> imbrandon: sure, I'll do
[21:02] <ScottK> Maybe sistpoty would volunteer to mentor proppy on spec writing....
[21:02] <imbrandon> killer, thanks
[21:02]  * persia suggests https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ContributorREVU but thinks someone else might have a better suggestion.
[21:02] <proppy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/NonMOTUReviewProcess ?
[21:02] <sistpoty> ScottK: /me needs the spare time for rewriting revu :P
[21:03] <persia> sistpoty: You don7t get to rewrite until there's a spec, no? ;)
[21:03] <proppy> I suck when it comes to choosing CamelCasedNames
[21:03] <DktrKranz> sistpoty, is source code available somewhere?
[21:03] <imbrandon> sistpoty: i just started proding the codebase too and did you see the staging site yet ?
[21:03] <persia> DktrKranz: In the LP project
[21:03] <DktrKranz> ah, I'll have a look, then
[21:03] <proppy> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ContributorREVU
[21:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ContributorREVU
[21:04] <sistpoty> DktrKranz: sure, https://code.launchpad.net/~revu-hackers/revu/trunk
[21:05] <sistpoty> imbrandon: no, not yet
[21:05] <sistpoty> ok, shall we move on?
[21:05]  * persia seconds
[21:05] <Nafallo> sistpoty: if that means a countdown ;-)
[21:05] <sistpoty> 3
[21:05] <sistpoty> 2
[21:05] <sistpoty> 1
[21:05] <sistpoty> any other business?
[21:06] <ScottK> Next meeting?
[21:06]  * persia proposes 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
[21:06] <sistpoty> [TOPIC] next meeting
[21:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
[21:06] <DktrKranz> Sounds good to me
[21:06]  * persia proposes 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
[21:06] <persia> (for MootBot)
[21:06] <Nafallo> I'm on a flight :-)
[21:06] <sistpoty> [IDEA] persia 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
[21:06] <MootBot> IDEA received:  persia 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
[21:06] <ScottK> persia: I doubt we'll get much that close to Christmas
[21:06] <ScottK> How about 12/14 and then we skip a week?
[21:06] <persia> ScottK: True, but the week after is even worse :(
[21:07] <Nafallo> friday meetings is the rule? ;-)
[21:07]  * persia doubts much of an agenda pre-12/14 (and couldn't make it anyway)
[21:07] <persia> Nafallo: Not the rule, but the practice.
[21:08] <ScottK> persia: Even without an advance agenda, meetings are good.
[21:08] <ScottK> I think today is an excellent example of that.
[21:08] <Nafallo> 4th then? :-)
[21:08] <sistpoty> official christmas break is "only" at 12/27 (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule), so I'd favor 12/12
[21:08] <sistpoty> 12/21 even
[21:09] <Nafallo> oh
[21:09] <Nafallo> it's m/dd
[21:09] <Nafallo> mm even
[21:10] <Nafallo> so?
[21:10]  * DktrKranz likes 12/21
[21:10] <ScottK> Whatever.
[21:10] <Nafallo> we got 14th, 21st and 4th proposed :-P
[21:10] <sistpoty> let's vote... didn't have the chance to do a MootBot vote yet *g*
[21:10] <sistpoty> [vote] meeting on 14
[21:10] <MootBot> Please vote on:  meeting on 14.
[21:10] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:10] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:11] <sistpoty> +0
[21:11] <MootBot> Abstention received from sistpoty. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:11] <persia> -1
[21:11] <MootBot> -1 received from persia. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
[21:11] <DktrKranz> -1
[21:11] <MootBot> -1 received from DktrKranz. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
[21:11] <Nafallo> -1
[21:11] <MootBot> -1 received from Nafallo. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
[21:11] <geser> -1
[21:11] <imbrandon> -1
[21:11] <MootBot> -1 received from geser. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4
[21:11] <MootBot> -1 received from imbrandon. 0 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -5
[21:11] <sistpoty> [endvote]
[21:11] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 5 against. 1 abstained. Total: -5
[21:11] <sistpoty> [vote] meeting on 21
[21:11] <MootBot> Please vote on:  meeting on 21.
[21:11] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:11] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:11] <imbrandon> +0
[21:11] <MootBot> Abstention received from imbrandon. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:11] <Nafallo> -1
[21:11] <MootBot> -1 received from Nafallo. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
[21:11] <DktrKranz> +1
[21:11] <MootBot> +1 received from DktrKranz. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:12] <sistpoty> +1
[21:12] <MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:12] <geser> +1
[21:12] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:12] <persia> +1
[21:12] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:12] <sistpoty> [endvote]
[21:12] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
[21:12] <sistpoty> [vote] meeting on 4th
[21:12] <MootBot> Please vote on:  meeting on 4th.
[21:12] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:12] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:12] <persia> 0
[21:12] <DktrKranz> +0
[21:12] <Nafallo> +1
[21:12] <sistpoty> -1
[21:12] <MootBot> Abstention received from DktrKranz. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:12] <MootBot> +1 received from Nafallo. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:12] <MootBot> -1 received from sistpoty. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:12] <imbrandon> +1
[21:13] <MootBot> +1 received from imbrandon. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:13] <persia> +0
[21:13] <MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:13] <ScottK> +1
[21:13] <MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 3 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:13] <geser> +0
[21:13] <MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 3 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:13] <sistpoty> [endvote]
[21:13] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 3 abstained. Total: 2
[21:14] <Nafallo> 21st then
[21:14] <sistpoty> yes, what time? (and please let's just make a time and not vote again *g*)
[21:14] <geser> which time?
[21:14] <DktrKranz> 12:00 UTC ?
[21:14] <imbrandon> 2100 UTC ?
[21:14] <ScottK> 2100UTC is good for me.
[21:14] <persia> 12:00 UTC so that people who aren't here now have a chance.
[21:14] <sistpoty> I'd agree with 12:00 UTC as that would be the usual shift
[21:15] <imbrandon> ok 1200 is ok also
[21:15] <imbrandon> with me
[21:15] <Nafallo> I'll miss it :-)
[21:15] <ScottK> Whatever you all decide.
[21:15] <Nafallo> but that's okay.
[21:15] <sistpoty> ok, can we agree on 12:00 UTC?
[21:15] <geser> +1
[21:15] <DktrKranz> +1
[21:15] <ScottK> Apparently
[21:15] <sistpoty> [AGREED] time is 12:00 UTC
[21:15] <MootBot> AGREED received:  time is 12:00 UTC
[21:15]  * persia thought we agreed not to vote :)
[21:16] <sistpoty> hehe
[21:16] <Nafallo> sistpoty: agreed on the date? :-)
[21:16] <DktrKranz> but that's not a vote :P
[21:16] <sistpoty> [AGREED] 21
[21:16] <MootBot> AGREED received:  21
[21:16] <geser> persia: we could have a vote to not vote the time :)
[21:16] <sistpoty> :P
[21:16] <Nafallo> lol
[21:16] <DktrKranz> :D
[21:16] <persia> geser: Yes.  That would be proper procedure :)
[21:16] <sistpoty> ok, I guess we're done...
[21:16] <Nafallo> we could vote about ending the meeting ;-)
[21:16] <DktrKranz> let's put it on vote :P
[21:16] <sistpoty> [vote] end the meeting
[21:16] <MootBot> Please vote on:  end the meeting.
[21:16] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:16] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:16] <sistpoty> +1
[21:16] <MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:16] <Nafallo> +1
[21:17] <MootBot> +1 received from Nafallo. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:17] <DktrKranz> +1
[21:17] <geser> +1
[21:17] <MootBot> +1 received from DktrKranz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:17] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[21:17] <persia> +1
[21:17] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[21:17] <Nafallo> lol
[21:17] <imbrandon> heh
[21:17] <sistpoty> [endvote]
[21:17] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[21:17] <Nafallo> I wasn't serious :-P
[21:17] <sistpoty> ok, meeting adjourned, thanks for coming!
[21:17]  * DktrKranz hopes no-one looks at the transcript
[21:17] <Nafallo> thanks :-)
[21:17] <sistpoty> [endmeeting]
[21:17] <sistpoty> #endmeeting
[21:17] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:17.
[21:18] <persia> sistpoty: Thanks for chairing
[21:18] <sistpoty> persia: no problem, though it was merely by accident#
[21:18] <sistpoty> MootBot: where can I find your logs?
[21:18]  * Nafallo puts sistpoty and imbrandon (I think) in #ubuntuwire ;-)
[21:19] <sistpoty> hehe... will be right there, just give me 5 minutes of "fresh" air *g*


[03:12] <Plisk> Hi! :) I'd like to offer a sponsorship to the active developers of Edubunty. anyone from devs here now ?
[03:14] <Plisk> s/i'd like/i want/
[03:14] <sbalneav> Evening all
[03:15] <sbalneav> Plisk: ?
[03:15] <Plisk> sbalneav: Hi
[03:16] <Plisk> sbalneav: what have you question about ?
[03:16] <sbalneav> Define "sponsorship"
[03:17] <Plisk> i want to see contributions so far for active developers and pay them for the work they done so far. also i want to pay them for any further active work on the Edubunty
[03:20] <Plisk> other questions ?
[03:21] <sbalneav> And you're doing this out of the goodness of your heart, or do you have an agenda you're looking for?
[03:22] <sbalneav> Speaking only for myself, but as a developer, IMHO, what we need is more developers, not more money :)
[03:23] <Plisk> Out of the goodness of your heart - you're right. You can read up more about my intensions here http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/90brb/creating_a_company_to_develop_maintain_and/c0b1ce2
[03:24] <Plisk> Well, i can give what i can - energy(money).
[03:27] <sbalneav> Well, speaking for myself, I'm happy to keep plugging along under my own steam.  However, you might get other responses by posting to the mailing list.
[03:27] <sbalneav> You say you have a company set up for this.  URL?
[03:28] <Plisk> Should i write to edubuntu-devel with this ?
[03:29] <Plisk> About company - well, it is being created now. But after talking there on reddit with Svenstaro i don't know now whether i'll need any URL or company at all or i can just send money with paypal to devs and thats all.
[03:33] <sbalneav> Plisk: Well, you'd probably get the most responses on the edubuntu-devel list.
[03:34] <Plisk> okay, thank you. i'll post there
[03:45] <Plisk> done :)
[03:58] <acp_> hi, Im using Ubuntu 8.04.3 LTS
[03:58] <acp_> can I download Ubuntu 9.04 Educational Addon ?
[04:35] <sbalneav> acp_: You can, but you also have to upgrade to Ubuntu 9.04 as well.
[05:43] <acp_> ok thanks
[07:39] <phurl> hi all
[07:40] <phurl> anyone want to come to our conference about edubuntu on august 29/30
[07:40] <phurl> #flossk channel
[09:32] <pygi> sbalneav, poke
[13:46] <Svenstaro> Plisk, are you here?
[13:50] <phurl> anyone want to come to our conference about edubuntu on august 29/30
[13:51] <Svenstaro> Where's that?
[13:52] <phurl> Prishtina, Kosovo #flossk
[13:52] <phurl> i mean the conference is about floss in general
[13:52] <phurl> and we would like people to talk abot edbuntu
[13:52] <phurl> edubntu
[13:52] <phurl> edubuntu
[14:36] <Ahmuck-Jr> acp i wouldn't
[14:39] <sbalneav> Good Morninging Edubuntu-land
[15:47] <highvoltage> hey there sbalneav
[15:49] <Svenstar0> sbalneav, are you there?
[16:02] <Svenstar0> highvoltage, have you seen "Plisk" talk around here?
[16:08] <highvoltage> Svenstar0: he last talked here at 2:45 UTC
[16:10] <Svenstar0> Oh I see
[16:10] <Svenstar0> Is his IRC user name "Plisk" as well?
[16:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> when is the meeting?
[16:25] <highvoltage> Svenstar0: 04:10 -!- Plisk<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #edubuntu
[16:26] <highvoltage> Ahmuck-Jr: 19:00 UTC
[16:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> ?
[16:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> yes?
[16:31] <sbalneav> Svenstar0: yes
[16:32] <sbalneav> Svenstar0: You rang?
[16:32] <sbalneav> :)
[16:33] <Svenstar0> Did you talk to "Plisk"?
[16:34] <sbalneav> Last night I did, yes.
[16:35] <Svenstar0> I urge you to be careful with that guy.
[16:35] <sbalneav> heh
[16:35] <_UsUrPeR_> hey all
[16:35] <sbalneav> I wasn't biting.
[16:35] <Svenstar0> He is in some kind of "do-good" cult aka Scientology.
[16:36] <_UsUrPeR_> I need some italc help. Is this the right place?
[16:36] <_UsUrPeR_> oh hi scott :)
[16:36] <sbalneav> He seemed to want to give money away as part of some new "company" he's formed.  No idea what for, no registered company, etc.
[16:37] <sbalneav> It didn't seem legit to me, so I told him I wasn't interested.  Told him if he wanted to make the offer, the mailing list was probably the best place for it.
[16:37] <sbalneav> Me, I have no real desire to get paid for what I do with LTSP/Edubuntu.  I do it for a different set of reasons :)
[16:38] <sbalneav> How do you know he's a Scieno?
[16:39] <Svenstar0> Seems like the same kind of "crazy" to me.
[16:39] <sbalneav> Well, I wouldn't accuse anyone of being anything unless you have proof :)  But I will say the offer didn't seem.... too serious.  I'll leave it at that :)
[16:54] <sbalneav> http://picasaweb.google.com/rotmer/HUPecK#5357859767808812450
[16:55] <sbalneav> That's his picasa gallery
[17:41] <Svenstar0> Have a look at his reddit comments, I think that says it all: http://www.reddit.com/user/plisk
[17:43] <Svenstar0> sbalneav, You are a Sabayon developer, aren't you?
[17:43] <Svenstar0> It's been stalled for some time and hasn't ever worked for me. Is that improving? (no offense, really)
[18:02] <_UsUrPeR_> Am I in the right place for some iTalc support questions?
[18:03] <Lns> _UsUrPeR_, stgraber would be the one to ask for that...might wanna try #ltsp too though he's here
[18:03] <Lns> (or at least in the chan)
[18:03] <_UsUrPeR_> yeah, I have been. He's pretty busy at a conference at the moment
[18:03] <Lns> ah
[18:04] <Lns> _UsUrPeR_, so you were talking about possibly contributing to tcm the other day, then disappeared... :)
[18:06] <_UsUrPeR_> lns: I am still interested.
[18:06] <Lns> _UsUrPeR_, cool! do you have an idea of what you'd like to do to help out?
[18:07] <_UsUrPeR_> unfortunately, my present employers were not interested :(
[18:07] <_UsUrPeR_> I can gurantee you that I will be able to help out
[18:07] <_UsUrPeR_> just not at this precise moment
[18:08] <_UsUrPeR_> I am still interested in helping out though
[18:08] <Lns> no worries, i appreciate it!
[18:08] <Lns> Just lemme know if there's anything I can do
[18:08] <_UsUrPeR_> will do
[18:08] <Lns> meeting here in ~1hr right?
[18:10]  * _UsUrPeR_ points to himself
[18:10] <_UsUrPeR_> ?
[18:17] <Lns> oh..no i was asking anyone..i think there is...i think..
[18:23] <Lns> Anyone know the state of GCompris suite for LTSP networks? Does it work very well? I know a couple of years ago it was fairly flaky (crashes often)
[18:44] <|TrustyLiebowitz> what IRC programs do you guys like for ubuntu?
[18:45] <Lns> |TrustyLiebowitz, xchat works well
[18:46] <Lns> if you want a more command-line driven approach to irc, there's always bitchx
[18:48] <|TrustyLiebowitz> I am using kvirc at the moment. Was the first thing I saw
[18:48] <|TrustyLiebowitz> Not so much into command line stuff
[18:48] <|TrustyLiebowitz> yet
[18:48] <|TrustyLiebowitz> just comming over from windows where I used to use Mirc
[18:48] <|TrustyLiebowitz> but pretty much doen with windows
[18:52] <Lns> |TrustyLiebowitz, try XChat out. It's a lot like mirc
[19:09] <sbalneav> Svenstar0: I'm not a developer, but I'm trying to fix it so that it works for us :)
[19:11]  * Lns looks around....meeting?
[19:15] <sbalneav> That on now?
[19:16] <sbalneav> Looks like there's some global jam thing going on in #ubuntu-meeting
[19:16] <alkisg> Isn't the meeting at 19:00 UTC?
[19:18]  * Lns tries to figure out if it's 19:00 utc..heh
[19:18] <alkisg> Lns, date -u
[19:18] <alkisg> sbalneav: I, too, am unable to start sabayon - with your ppa in my sources. Does it start for you?
[19:20] <dgroos> Hi All
[19:20] <dgroos> Meeting today?
[19:20] <dgroos> Not on the fridge?
[19:21] <Lns> aaaaaaaaah, 1hr
[19:21] <Lns> stupid daylight savings =
[19:21] <Lns> =
[19:21] <Lns> blargh
[19:21] <sbalneav> alkisg: It does for me, but if it doesn't start for you, that's a problem.
[19:21] <sbalneav> ok
[19:21] <dgroos> Right!  Thanks
[19:22] <alkisg> sbalneav: whenever you have the time / mood for it, I'm up for debugging...
[19:22] <sbalneav> I've got one other person who it doesn't start for, but I've got a couple of people who it DOES start for, so still more work to be done.
[19:23] <dgroos> Lns: thanks for the page you created on your site explaining about the benefits of thin clients--I'm just linking someone to it on an e-mail I'm sending :)
[19:23] <Lns> dgroos, Glad to hear others are seeing it :)
[19:23] <Lns> Right now I'm adding a "Featured Educational Applications" section
[19:24]  * alkisg is debianizing about 10 Gb of windows-based educational apps this summer.. wine and flash, mostly. If anyone's in a similar position, I'd be glad to change notes :)
[19:26] <Lns> alkisg, debianizing? you mean just getting them to work under wine?
[19:26] <alkisg> Yes, but also installing for all users and creating menus etc
[19:26] <alkisg> So e.g. if I was to debianize office, I would also associate the .doc extension to open in word etc
[19:27] <alkisg> (all that inside the .deb file, nothing done manually)
[19:28] <Lns> gross
[19:28] <Lns> =p
[19:29] <alkisg> Yeah I hope these wine devs make it easier some day :)
[19:29] <Lns> no i meant about debianizing ms office ;)
[19:29] <alkisg> Ah, I think that's done already with wine-doors?
[19:30] <highvoltage> I don't think you can debianize windows software really
[19:30] <highvoltage> or at least wine programs, I don't think you can do system-wide installations yet
[19:30] <alkisg> highvoltage: I've already done it for some of them
[19:31] <highvoltage> alkisg: how does that work?
[19:32] <alkisg> I use a common read-only system.reg file, and I put the package files in /usr/share/package
[19:32] <alkisg> Per-user registry is still kept in ~/.wine
[19:33] <alkisg> I'll write a how-to when I'm done with it; I just wanted to exchange notes with anyone that tried something similar...
[19:35] <alkisg> For extension association I use a wrapper script in /usr/bin/package
[19:36] <Lns> well, this really would be a big step forward with windows only edu apps...
[19:39] <highvoltage> indeed
[19:43] <LaserJock> hello Edubuntu land!
[19:45] <sbalneav> Greetings, Denizen of LaserLand.
[19:45]  * Lns greets LaserJock
[19:55] <LaserJock> is the meeting going to be in here or #ubuntu-meeting?
[19:55] <highvoltage> LaserJock: #ubuntu-meeting
[20:00] <highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting about to start in #ubuntu-meeting
[20:09] <svenstaro> Oh hi, meeting already started?
[20:10] <alkisg> svenstaro: it's in #ubuntu-meeting
[20:17] <ball> Is there an Edubuntu mailing list?
[20:17] <ball> (if so, where do I sign up?)
[20:18] <sbalneav> edubuntu-users
[20:18] <sbalneav> or
[20:18] <sbalneav> edubuntu-devel
[20:18] <Lns> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-users
[20:18] <Lns> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel
[20:19] <Lns> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-education
[20:31] <|TrustyLiebowitz> what are meetings about?
[20:32] <|TrustyLiebowitz> ubuntu annonymous? :D
[20:46] <sbalneav> |TrustyLiebowitz: working on edubuntu
[20:52] <Ahmuck-Jr> edubuntu anonymous :D
[20:53] <|TrustyLiebowitz> "Hi my name is Trusty and I have been off winblows for 48 hours now. I just wanna say thanks for all the support and you guys are really great! (Cries)"
[20:54] <|TrustyLiebowitz> Since I basicly know nothing, I'll jus tsit over her ein the corner an crack jokes every so often
[20:54] <Ahmuck-Jr> |TrustyLiebowitz: really?
[20:56] <|TrustyLiebowitz> really which? That I don't know anything or been off windcrows for 48 hours? Or that I am the problem child in the corner? Answer to all is yes though :)
[20:56] <Ahmuck-Jr> :) ... good to see you in the linux community.  i hope you find us well, and not to cranky each morning :)
[20:57] <|TrustyLiebowitz> if Lns is a good gauge, I like you guys jsut fine
[20:58] <|TrustyLiebowitz> so if ya get sick of me it's his fault that I stayed :D
[21:01] <LaserJock> mhall119|work: I'm curious, did you look at Edubuntu before starting Qimo and if so what reasons did  you have for not using it?
[21:02] <mhall119|work> I did
[21:02] <mhall119|work> My concerns were that there wasn't a LiveCD, and the interface didn't seem like it would work for my 3 year old
[21:02] <mhall119|work> before I made Qimo, I made my son a regular Ubuntu install with customized panels very similar to how they are in Qimo
[21:03] <mhall119|work> and it worked very well for him (still does, really)
[21:05] <LaserJock> well, those are the sorts of things we're aiming to fix
[21:06] <LaserJock> the LiveCD thing is a real problem
[21:06] <LaserJock> we just can't fit *everything* on a single CD
[21:06] <Ahmuck-Jr> well, that i agree
[21:06] <mhall119|work> yeah, I know, I had to strip stuff out of Xubuntu to make Qimo fit
[21:06] <mhall119|work> I think I have 1MB of room left on the ISO
[21:06] <Ahmuck-Jr> would edubuntu be able to list a set of programs that can be used in ubuntu that may not be gpl?
[21:07] <LaserJock> Ahmuck-Jr: how do you mean?
[21:08] <svenstaro> I still can't believe that a decision to go from CD to DVD can be so hard.
[21:08] <Ahmuck-Jr> there are programs outside of gpl that work for kids.  our kids self sleect
[21:08] <svenstaro> All Edubuntu stuff would fit comfortably onto a DVD
[21:08] <LaserJock> svenstaro: it's not
[21:09] <LaserJock> svenstaro: the actual decision took about 10 min. :-)
[21:09] <Ahmuck-Jr> i'm not talking about setting programs on a cd, but a recommended list.
[21:09] <svenstaro> Well, LaserJock, HAS it actually been decided then?
[21:09] <LaserJock> yes
[21:10] <svenstaro> So that I might at last start work after 3 months of waiting
[21:10] <LaserJock> I emailed that 2-3 times over the last month
[21:10] <svenstaro> So we're going DVD?
[21:10] <highvoltage> Ahmuck-Jr: a list shouldn't be a problem at all
[21:10] <LaserJock> svenstaro: if people will work to make it happen, yes. We got the go-ahead from the Technical Board
[21:10] <highvoltage> Ahmuck-Jr: and even non-free things can go into the repositories, there's multiverse for that
[21:11] <sbalneav> The problem
[21:11] <sbalneav> as always
[21:11] <sbalneav> is
[21:11] <sbalneav> WHO
[21:11] <sbalneav> IS
[21:11] <mhall119|work> a list wouldn't be a problem, but distribution of certain closed-source programs is
[21:11] <sbalneav> GOING
[21:11] <sbalneav> TO
[21:11] <svenstaro> LaserJock: It doesn't take a genius nor a large amount of work to combine the ubuntu and edubuntu preseeds :/
[21:11] <sbalneav> PRODCE THE DVD :)
[21:11] <LaserJock> Ahmuck-Jr: I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for
[21:11] <LaserJock> svenstaro: no, it just takes coordination with the Ubuntu Release and CDImage Teams
[21:12] <highvoltage> LaserJock: so, let's get this started
[21:12] <mhall119|work> LaserJock: there isn't a way to automate the merging?
[21:12] <highvoltage> stgraber: I sense you popping in
[21:12] <LaserJock> mhall119|work: it's not really the merging
[21:12] <svenstaro> How are we on the documentation? Is anybody actually going to clean it up?
[21:13] <LaserJock> mhall119|work: we need to coordinate with the Release/CDImage team to get the build running and cdimage.ubuntu.com updated
[21:13] <mhall119|work> svenstaro: is there a roadmap for what needs to be cleaned up and how?
[21:13] <mhall119|work> LaserJock: oh right, you've for official images
[21:13] <svenstaro> Just make it consistent with upstream and see if stuff tested for old ubuntu releases still works.
[21:13] <highvoltage> svenstaro: we hope so
[21:14] <svenstaro> LaserJock: So I'll just send you the preseeds and we're done?
[21:14] <svenstaro> It's really just a list with package names in it.
[21:14] <mhall119|work> svenstaro: I ask because if there's something to point people in the right direction, it could be done as part of the Ubuntu Global Jam
[21:14] <LaserJock> svenstaro: no, not exactly
[21:14] <highvoltage> svenstaro: I can assure you LaserJock understands what preseeds look like
[21:14] <LaserJock> svenstaro: once the DVD builds are up and running it's just a matter of tweaking the DVD seed
[21:15] <LaserJock> but we need to get the initial boot-strapping going
[21:15] <highvoltage> LaserJock: cant we just start off with having a DVD with ubuntu-desktop and the edubuntu metapackages, at least to begin with, and then take it from there?
[21:15] <LaserJock> so emailing colin watson to get him (or send him a patch) to make Edubuntu build off of a new "dvd" seed
[21:15] <mhall119|work> do any of you guys know what changes are going to happen in the liveCD images?  I heard at SELF that aufs is being dropped
[21:15] <svenstaro> I still don't get the problem, then. It seems like the problem is purely bureaucratic.
[21:16] <LaserJock> svenstaro: well, it does take some work, and work from very busy people
[21:16] <LaserJock> but yeah, it shouldn't be a huge deal
[21:16] <LaserJock> *but* somebody needs to do it and I'm not that somebody
[21:16] <LaserJock> I have ~ 2 days to finish my PhD and I'm defending in ~ 1 week
[21:17] <highvoltage> LaserJock: would I be able to do it? I mean, as a non-motu/non-core-dev, would I be able to e-mail Colin and just ask him?
[21:17] <LaserJock> sure
[21:17] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok I'll do it tomorrow morning then
[21:17] <LaserJock> just say per the TB discussion Edubuntu is going to move to a DVD
[21:17] <highvoltage> ok
[21:17] <LaserJock> and ask if he can make the changes or if he's to busy would he take a patch
[21:18] <LaserJock> if he needs a patch I *might* have a little time to help
[21:18] <highvoltage> will do
[21:18] <Ahmuck-Jr> LaserJock: from a classroom instructor's point of view, i'm looking to go to a website, see what programs are available, some simple setup instructions for putting either a ubuntu server or ltsp server in the classroom, take all my 2003 or 2000 computers and connect them and have working pc's that my kids can use
[21:18] <LaserJock> but it would be waaaay faster to have him do it as he wrote the thing
[21:18] <LaserJock> Ahmuck-Jr: right, but what does the GPL have to do with it?
[21:18] <Ahmuck-Jr> LaserJock: if your phd is coming up, i'd concentrate on that
[21:18] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok, I'll try to use that factor to convince him to do it
[21:18] <LaserJock> I am, believe me
[21:19] <LaserJock> ok, so for the very first thing I'd just copy the Ubuntu DVD seed and make sure we get an Ubuntu DVD out
[21:19] <LaserJock> then we can start modifying things
[21:19] <LaserJock> the modifying might be fun for people actually
[21:20] <LaserJock> but we need to get the daily builds going in the first place
[21:20] <LaserJock> and then the release team needs to know that we're ditching the Addon Cd and doing the DVD
[21:20] <Michelle_Qimo> Hi everyone, just got the notice that mhall119|work asked me to join
[21:20] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I have an employee that I could make test edubuntu images at least once a week as part of his job
[21:20] <highvoltage> Michelle_Qimo: and thank you for joining!
[21:20] <mhall119|work> hey, everyone, Michelle_Qimo is my wife, we're the dynamic duo of Qimo
[21:21] <LaserJock> and we need an Edubuntu Release Coordinator, I would perhaps suggest having stgraber or the EC for that
[21:21] <highvoltage> Michelle_Qimo: nice to meet you
[21:21] <LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo: hi
[21:21] <Michelle_Qimo> hi highvoltage and LaserJock.  Thanks for having me!
[21:21] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I'm very much in favour of stgraber, and I'd take some mentoring from him as well if he's willing, so that I know how to do it as well
[21:21] <LaserJock> sure
[21:22] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I noticed a question mark next to your name on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicKoala/ReleaseManifest
[21:22] <LaserJock> it just takes somebody to give the go-ahead that things are tested and OK and most importantly somebody who can get ahold of people if something goes wrong
[21:22] <highvoltage> LaserJock: if stgraber agrees, can we put his name up for there to mdz?
[21:22] <LaserJock> highvoltage: exactly
[21:22] <LaserJock> yep, that's what I'm hoping for
[21:22] <LaserJock> but I don't want to overload him
[21:23] <sbalneav> brb, workping
[21:23] <highvoltage> Michelle_Qimo: we've been thinking of getting in touch with the two of you to get some (or even all) of your work into the Ubuntu archives
[21:23] <LaserJock> but he's got lots of testing experience (having largely written the testing website) so I think it should be fairly easy for him
[21:23] <highvoltage> Michelle_Qimo: we happened to run into mhall119|work while having our meeting just a few minutes ago, so we're happy that there was some chance in our favour there
[21:24] <highvoltage> LaserJock: that's encouraging
[21:24] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: if you can help me with the XFCE/XDG stuff, I think I can make .Deb packages of everything custom in Qimo
[21:24] <Michelle_Qimo> he was saying that youguys can help him out a bit.
[21:24] <Michelle_Qimo> that's awesome, and I'm so thankful
[21:24] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I was thinking throughout this week that we might have to drop the dvd install disc for thise release, I wasn't very comfortable with the idea for karmic since the beginning, but I think I have more confidence in it now
[21:25] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I don't think we would've stood a chance this release without having stgraber around
[21:25] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: great, are you usually on-line this time of the day?
[21:25] <mhall119|work> usually
[21:25] <LaserJock> I *think* it should be pretty straightfoward to do Ubuntu DVD+Edu apps for Karmic
[21:25] <mhall119|work> sometimes I have to look like I'm working though
[21:25] <LaserJock> I'm concerned with our ability to sync with the Ubuntu DVD though
[21:25] <mhall119|work> I leave this nick running 24/7 though, so it'll probably stay in here
[21:26] <LaserJock> in terms of installer bugs, etc. we have to stick *real* close
[21:26] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: ok, ping me tomorrow (or any other time you're on again and have some time), we'll go through it
[21:26] <Michelle_Qimo> I'm usually around, though, I'll stay in as well.
[21:26] <mhall119|work> thanks highvoltage
[21:27] <highvoltage> LaserJock: can you help me clear up some ignorance here...
[21:27] <LaserJock> unless I'm similarly ignorant ;-)
[21:28] <highvoltage> LaserJock: will we need to specify the meta-packages that we also want on the dvd, or will he just include the current seeds for the packages on the current edubuntu disc?
[21:28] <LaserJock> no
[21:28] <LaserJock> what we'll have is a specific DVD seed
[21:28] <LaserJock> that pulls in from the various other seeds
[21:29] <LaserJock> so the disc is built from 1 seed, but that seed can inherit from other seeds
[21:30] <svenstaro> Will a new package be required for the live LTSP?
[21:30] <svenstaro> Or will it just be put in place on there?
[21:30] <LaserJock> I'm not sure about live LTSP
[21:30] <LaserJock> we might have to skip that for Karmic
[21:31] <svenstaro> Well it's not exactly magic.
[21:31] <LaserJock> no, but seeing as we're not far from Feature Freeze and we don't even have a DVD yet ...
[21:32] <svenstaro> Has anything been decided that concerns actual user experience?
[21:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I thought I told you about live LTSP before, we decided we'll just make a how-to for that, so it will simply be a piece of documentation
[21:33] <LaserJock> svenstaro: I haven't seen much of *anything* really decided
[21:33] <LaserJock> lots of ideas
[21:33] <LaserJock> but a bit light on implementation
[21:34] <LaserJock> *other than* highvoltage here has been doing a bit of packaging!
[21:34] <svenstaro> Okay, well. My sommer break is starting tomorrow. Apart from my other projects I'll have lots of time.
[21:35] <svenstaro> Is there anything that I should be working on?
[21:35] <LaserJock> svenstaro: well, you had interest in docs, right?
[21:36] <highvoltage> svenstaro: and do you have any web/wiki skills as well?
[21:36] <svenstaro> Actually, no. I'm mainly interested in user experience but I think I'd be able to do pretty much everything that needs work.
[21:37] <svenstaro> If I can recall correctly, I have already given you guys my skills once or twice. Anyhow, my skills are: medium C++, medium-high Python, all kinds of CMS and wiki, pretty much anything required.
[21:38] <svenstaro> I'd actually be highly interested in doing training videos for the live DVD and for the website that address actual use cases but I don't know your stance on that.
[21:38] <Ahmuck-Jr> i'm intersted in your "user" ideas
[21:38] <LaserJock> I think our stance has been that we'd be excited to have training videos
[21:39] <svenstaro> I can also work on Sabayon or Pessulus if needed. My main goal is making Edubuntu LTSP available to a *real* school environment, maintained by a teacher.
[21:39] <LaserJock> svenstaro: well, then I think we all have a shared goal then :-)
[21:40] <svenstaro> LaserJock: I'm not so sure. From my earlier discussions I somehow still have a "ring" that LTSP lost some value.
[21:40] <mhall119|work> is anyone here (besides me) from Florida?
[21:40] <svenstaro> Or at least interest among the Edubuntu project.
[21:40] <highvoltage> svenstaro: sbalneav could use a hand on sabayon, and pessulus work would also be good
[21:40] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: I assume Michelle_Qimo is as well :)
[21:40] <mhall119|work> well yes
[21:40] <Ahmuck-Jr> i don't think it's lost it's value or it's interest, but perhaps it's focus
[21:40] <Ahmuck-Jr> qimo in florida ?!
[21:40] <Ahmuck-Jr> intersting
[21:40] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: yup
[21:41] <mhall119|work> well, Qimo is global now, be he started in Florida
[21:41] <LaserJock> svenstaro: what does LTSP have to do with it?
[21:41] <mhall119|work> We're planning on doing an LTSP lab in August down here, for a children's home
[21:41] <svenstaro> highvoltage: LaserJock: How would I best make a decision for Edubuntu and be sure that my work is actually included? The interest on the mailing list was low for the things I wanted to talk about.
[21:41] <Ahmuck-Jr> mhall119|work: i'm interested in your work, very interested
[21:42] <LaserJock> svenstaro: it may not be that it's a lack of interest
[21:42] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: thanks
[21:42] <LaserJock> for me the problem is that we have some real pressing issues
[21:42] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: do you have any questions about it?
[21:42] <highvoltage> svenstaro: there's also some scepticism sometimes when people make lots of big promises
[21:42] <svenstaro> LaserJock: I think that LTSP is of major importance because of its centralism and maintainability.
[21:42] <LaserJock> and as much as I have a lot of grand ideas, I have to look at what we can do for Karmic to keep things alive
[21:42] <LaserJock> svenstaro: sure, but LTSP != Education either
[21:42] <Ahmuck-Jr> when you do the lab, i'm interested in following your progress, and would be willing to work with you.  work problems out, etc.
[21:43] <svenstaro> I'm not making big promises at all, I'm trying to make big goals but I can't get people to agree.
[21:43] <LaserJock> svenstaro: LTSP is a tool and a major piece of the Edubuntu puzzle
[21:43] <mhall119|work> svenstaro: I can tell you that LTSP's bigged point for me is using old, discarded computers as thin clients
[21:43] <Ahmuck-Jr> i agree with Laserjock, he's trying ot hit distro release schedules
[21:43] <highvoltage> svenstaro: if you have an idea, come talk about it in an edubuntu meeting with myself, LaserJock and stgraber. We should be able to tell you if it's suitable for inclusion in the archives
[21:43] <LaserJock> but we shifted from developing LTSP as upstreams to now being a consumer of LTSP
[21:43] <LaserJock> that doesn't mean we care about LTSP less
[21:44] <Ahmuck-Jr> has edubuntu and ltsp sepereated?
[21:44] <alkisg> Education = Ubuntu in education. Among other software, LTSP is also used in Education. So if svenstaro can integrate LTSP in the Ubuntu DVD in time for Karmic, where's the problem? It'll help a lot of teachers...
[21:44] <svenstaro> LaserJock: That's fine but I still think that Edubuntu should try to integrate with LTSP as best as it can if the user decides to use that.
[21:44] <LaserJock> but our focus went from "how do we be the best LTSP distro?" to "how do we be the best education distro?"
[21:44] <highvoltage> Ahmuck-Jr: well, they're still connected
[21:44] <highvoltage> Ahmuck-Jr: but it was never a single project
[21:44] <Ahmuck-Jr> were not working togather?
[21:44] <LaserJock> well, LTSP is software, just like any other
[21:44] <highvoltage> Ahmuck-Jr: both sbalneav and stgraber are LTSP upstream people
[21:44] <Ahmuck-Jr> i'll put forth a question proposed by others in the past.  schoolbuntu?
[21:44] <mhall119|work> isn't LTSP part of the standard Ubuntu alt-cd image?
[21:44] <highvoltage> Ahmuck-Jr: so LTSP and Edubuntu *definitely* has strong links
[21:45] <LaserJock> mhall119|work: yep
[21:45] <Ahmuck-Jr> highvoltage: yep, i'm familiar with sbalneav and stgraber
[21:45] <mhall119|work> LaserJock: so is there much more work to have it working in Edubuntu's image?
[21:45] <svenstaro> Ahmuck-Jr: Actually, I wanted to start my own Ubuntu fork as Schoolbuntu but people in this channel told me to hold it.
[21:46] <LaserJock> mhall119|work: having what working? LTSP?
[21:46] <mhall119|work> yeah
[21:46] <Ahmuck-Jr> it's my observation that edubuntu see's itself as ubuntu with edu apps, rather than ubuntu in the classroom
[21:46] <svenstaro> So what contexts is Edubuntu now meant to be used in if not classrooms?
[21:46] <LaserJock> mhall119|work: no, we shouldn't really have to do much of anything
[21:46] <mhall119|work> if it's already working in Ubuntu 9.10, what needs to be done for it to work in Edubuntu?
[21:46] <mhall119|work> okay, it sounded like it was going to be an issue
[21:46] <LaserJock> svenstaro: home computers for pre-school kids, Universities
[21:46] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: it's incredibly easy to include on alternate CD builds
[21:46] <Ahmuck-Jr> from what i can tell, edubuntu is home based rather than school based
[21:47] <Ahmuck-Jr> LaserJock: i don't see it bieng used in universites
[21:47] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is *education* based
[21:47] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: but afaik not yet on casper/ubiquity discs
[21:47] <mhall119|work> oh, I see
[21:47] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: and the majority of the edubuntu users have stressed the importance of a GUI installer
[21:47] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: Qimo is very home-based, edubuntu has much more school-based stuff than we do
[21:47] <svenstaro> I would argue that there's more education going on in a school environment than in pre-school kindergardens or at home.
[21:47] <LaserJock> sure
[21:47] <svenstaro> Universities surely wouldn't use a desktop based solution.
[21:48] <LaserJock> why not?
[21:48] <Ahmuck-Jr> mhall119|work: i'll take a look at Qimo ... i'm interested in seeing what apps you've found to work
[21:48] <svenstaro> Because it'd be a huge pain to manage.
[21:48] <LaserJock> what I'm trying to get at is I don't know why we're limiting ourselves
[21:48] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: I think for LTSP it would be less of an issue, people who can't make it through an ncurses installer won't likely be wiring up computer labs with thin clients either
[21:48] <LaserJock> svenstaro: they do it already
[21:48] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: mostly the same as Edubuntu has
[21:48] <alkisg> mhall119|work: no special wiring is needed for live LTSP
[21:48] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: heh, you'd be surprised :)
[21:49] <svenstaro> LaserJock: I'm not saying to limit ourselves at all! I'm only saying that we should work out exact use cases and address them technically, for example in the installer "What do you want to use Edubuntu for?"
[21:49] <mhall119|work> alkisg: you need clients, right?
[21:49] <Ahmuck-Jr> svenstaro: sorta, there are pre-schools that would love the software and measuring sucess in pre-school is just as important if not more so
[21:49] <sbalneav> back
[21:49] <alkisg> mhall119|work: yeah, but labs tend to have PCs in them (=clients :))
[21:49] <LaserJock> svenstaro: right, well, that's certainly something we can look into
[21:49] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: agreed, we put out first Qimo computers into a preschool
[21:50] <mhall119|work> preschool is a very good place to start with educational software
[21:50] <svenstaro> I think that if Edubuntu wants to be nothing specific again but "just a bunch of apps and maybe some inconsistent docs" then it hasn't moved one bit into the right direction, at least from my perspective.
[21:50] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: I think it's worth mentioning that we don't specifically want to bring qimo into edubuntu as such, what we would like to do more specifically is make the qimo desktop easily available for ubuntu users
[21:50] <mhall119|work> alkisg: do you need to configure the clients to network boot?
[21:50] <Michelle_Qimo> highvoltage: that sounds like a good plan
[21:50] <mhall119|work> last time I did network booting, there was a lot of configuration on the clients
[21:50] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: it would also make sense to distribute the qimo packages on the edubuntu discs since we share so much packages in common, it would allow anyone with an edubuntu disc at hand to install qimo from it as well
[21:51] <alkisg> mhall119|work: that's not wiring. Anyone can insert a floppy or cd. No settings are required.
[21:51] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: I like that idea, we've had multiple ubuntu users wanting to install just the Qimo interface
[21:51] <highvoltage> Michelle_Qimo: sorry I should probably highlight you as well!
[21:51] <LaserJock> svenstaro: the problem is it takes time
[21:51] <LaserJock> svenstaro: nobody want it to just be Ubuntu+a few edu apps
[21:51] <Michelle_Qimo> highvoltage: oh, no, I'm reading along, trying to keep up.
[21:51] <mhall119|work> alkisg: it must have gotten easier since I did it then
[21:51] <alkisg> Probably :)
[21:52] <highvoltage> Michelle_Qimo: heh, yes the channel is quite a bit more noisier than it usually is tonight :)
[21:52] <mhall119|work> alkisg: PXE boot just about drove me mad at one point
[21:52] <LaserJock> svenstaro: but we've been close to the edge of death here as a project and so the primary focus needs to be on doing some CPR :-)
[21:52] <alkisg> mhall119|work: nah, it's a piece of cake now, it can even work with existing dhcp servers already present on the lab.
[21:53] <mhall119|work> cool
[21:53] <mhall119|work> alkisg: I may come ask you questions too, when I'm setting up my lap
[21:53] <alkisg> np
[21:53] <svenstaro> Considering all that has been said, then, would it still be a stupid idea to have "Schoolbuntu", Linux distribution specialized for efficient usage in educational institutions?
[21:54] <mhall119|work> I have a bunch of old dells without hard drives
[21:54] <mhall119|work> that I want to use as clients
[21:54] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: we understand that an automated LTSP environment is a high priority, it's certainly not something we're going to ignore, I can at least assure you of that
[21:54] <LaserJock> svenstaro: why, Edubuntu would just be Schoolbuntu+
[21:54] <LaserJock> we just need to get things going here and have people pitching to help
[21:54] <sbalneav> LaserJock++
[21:54] <LaserJock> Edubuntu wants to be focused on schools
[21:55] <mhall119|work> svenstaro: what would you need in schoolbuntu that isn't in edubuntu?
[21:55] <svenstaro> LaserJock: Okay, then. It may sound tedious but I'll repeat: How can I be sure that my contributions will be included? Whom do I talk to then, anyhow?
[21:55] <LaserJock> svenstaro: just start making contributions
[21:55] <mhall119|work> can you do what we're talking about doing with Qimo, and just having it available as an extra installable option?
[21:55] <LaserJock> there's really not a gatekeeper here
[21:55] <LaserJock> we can advice, discuss, etc.
[21:55] <LaserJock> but if you want to clean up the wiki, go for it!
[21:56] <highvoltage> svenstaro: I told you before, if you want to be as sure as you can be *before* you actually contribute, bring it up at one of our weekly meetings and we'd be able to give you a good idea
[21:56] <LaserJock> if you want to fix bugs, go for it!
[21:56] <LaserJock> highvoltage: +1
[21:56] <LaserJock> if unsure, just ask
[21:56] <mhall119|work> is edubuntu in launchpad?
[21:56] <svenstaro> Good, I want to fork the installer and address specific use case using the then new Edubuntu installer.
[21:57] <mhall119|work> which installer?
[21:57] <LaserJock> svenstaro: I would talk to Colin Watson or one of the other installer maintainers about the things you want to do
[21:57] <LaserJock> svenstaro: I think there's even an #ubuntu-installer
[21:57] <highvoltage> svenstaro: ok, you probably realise that that's quite risky and that you'll have to address quite a few issues if you definitely want it included
[21:57] <svenstaro> I don't think the bureaucracy is encouraging.
[21:57] <LaserJock> what bureaucracy?
[21:58] <LaserJock> we're essentially a meritocracy here, if the work has technical merit it will be looked at
[21:58] <svenstaro> Well, normally I'd create my own big project, a whole fork, realise Edubuntu the way I think it should be done and have everybody pull back to trunk what they think is good idea.
[21:58] <LaserJock> but you have to recognize that a forked installer is very difficult to maintain at the standards we need
[21:59] <Ahmuck-Jr> actually, it doesn't have to be ltsp even.  it could be stand alone, drives cloned at night, with centralized login and centralized storage, windows apps usable, etc.
[21:59] <svenstaro> But realistically, I can't do it because I can't even roll my own images to start with.
[21:59] <highvoltage> svenstaro: I think you'll need to look into that
[21:59] <LaserJock> svenstaro: are you talking about  ubiquity or the debian installer?
[21:59] <highvoltage> svenstaro: because understanding how an image is put together is absolutely critical if you even want to touch installer work
[22:00] <svenstaro> LaserJock: I think Ubiquity would be more appropiate to modify since we're targeting teachers who could watch videos while installing if that is feasible from a DVD.
[22:00] <mhall119|work> svenstaro: why can't you roll your own images?
[22:00] <highvoltage> svenstaro: the ubiquity team is already working on that
[22:01] <mhall119|work> I know they're putting some kind of a "tour" function into Ubuquity
[22:01] <LaserJock> svenstaro: I think ubiquity is supposed to have some level of "plugability"
[22:01] <mhall119|work> I've made changes to Ubiquity before, it's not real complex
[22:01] <highvoltage> svenstaro: they're going to include webkit-gtk support which will theoretically allow you to include flash videos in the installer
[22:01] <LaserJock> ideally what I'd like to be able to do is just insert the "Edubuntu" stuff as "plugins" to ubiquity and not fork at all
[22:01] <svenstaro> Ugh, flash videos. C'mon, we're trying to liberate schools.
[22:01] <highvoltage> svenstaro: it would be quite a waste if you spend time implementing something that is already being implemented by the installer team, don't you think?
[22:02] <svenstaro> LaserJock: IS it pluggable in trunk right now?
[22:02] <LaserJock> svenstaro: I *think* so but I don't know 100%
[22:02] <highvoltage> svenstaro: fine, html <video> tags then
[22:02] <LaserJock> that's why i'd suggest talking to cjwatson or #ubuntu-installer
[22:02] <mhall119|work> it's python and GTK, you could always include a gstreamer based player
[22:02] <LaserJock> I just don't know off hand what the "state of the art" in Ubiquity is
[22:03] <highvoltage> ubiquity has plenty of support for hooks and inserting custom scripts and stuff
[22:03] <svenstaro> If I am to write that hypotethical plugin, let's decide on the use cases: Workstation, LTSP Server, LTSP Cluster Support Server, Home computer, ...?
[22:03] <highvoltage> I honestly can't see any need for edubuntu at present to make even the slightest change to ubiquity
[22:04] <svenstaro> highvoltage: Good then, I wasn't eager to fork it but I didn't know it was made so comfortable for plugins.
[22:04] <highvoltage> svenstaro: do you know how ubiquity currently installs a casper image?
[22:04] <Ahmuck-Jr> mhall119|work: keep me posted.  i'm working with 9.04 currently and would hope i had some hard knocks in the process i could spare you from.  need an e-mail?
[22:04] <svenstaro> No, but I rolled a few custom Ubuntu's once by manually doing the casper process.
[22:05] <alkisg> That plugin-based "select role to setup" that svenstaro proposed is a great idea, I think...
[22:05] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: are you usually in here?
[22:05] <Ahmuck-Jr> yep, usually
[22:05] <mhall119|work> ok, I'll come find you then
[22:05] <Ahmuck-Jr> been participating more in channel #ltsp
[22:05] <mhall119|work> QImo 1 is based on Xubuntu 8.10, 2 is gonig to be based on 9.10
[22:05] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I see a need for some Edubuntu-specific questions in Ubiquity
[22:05] <highvoltage> svenstaro: ok, so you know that ubiquity pretty much copies everything in there over to the target system, and then afterwards it removes the packages that shouldn't be there based on the manifest
[22:06] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I don't know yet how we're going to manage edu app installation
[22:06]  * mhall119|work has too many IRC windows
[22:06] <Ahmuck-Jr> ttfn
[22:06] <highvoltage> svenstaro: I think you should try to at least work with the ubuntu-installer team somewhat to find the best ways to implement your ideas
[22:06] <LaserJock> highvoltage: so we're going to have to decide, I think, between installing no edu apps or installing all edu apps
[22:06] <highvoltage> svenstaro: more to protect you from doing things that may be easily done with existing things in the installer tools
[22:07] <mhall119|work> LaserJock: you could add a screen to Ubiquity, kind of tasksel like, to pick them
[22:07] <alkisg> It could be possible that the same dvd contained /dist/ and /pool/ and was able to install roles *after* the initial installation...
[22:07] <LaserJock> alkisg: that's what I'm thinking
[22:07] <alkisg> (the non-live ones, at least...)
[22:08] <LaserJock> I was thinking of installing an "Education Software Installer" in the Administration menu
[22:08] <svenstaro> Do we in principle agree then that there should be different profiles for installation?
[22:08] <mhall119|work> alkisg: is that how Ubuntu Server does it?
[22:08] <highvoltage> LaserJock: well, the build systems do support having a casper image and seperate .deb files, so we could have the dvd not install all of the edu stuff, and then have gnome-app-install run from the /target chroot as a post-inst hook in ubiquity
[22:08] <alkisg> mhall119|work: I don't know, I've never used Ubuntu server
[22:08] <mhall119|work> alkisg: I seem to remember it installs first, then asks if you want LAMP, OpenSSH, etc
[22:08] <highvoltage> LaserJock: not that I'm saying it should work exactly like that, but I think there are ways of doing it but we should get to the nitty gritty of that later
[22:08] <alkisg> I've no idea :
[22:08] <LaserJock> svenstaro: of course, I'm not sure what exactly they should be  or when exactly they should be presented, but having installation profiles is a long-time Edubuntu thing
[22:09] <highvoltage> svenstaro: yep, I think we do
[22:09] <LaserJock> we used to have Classroom Server and Workstation
[22:09] <svenstaro> LaserJock: Why have they never een implemented?
[22:09] <svenstaro> Oh
[22:09] <svenstaro> Have they not been maintained?
[22:10] <LaserJock> svenstaro: because we went to the Addon CD thing and LTSP moved to the Ubuntu Alternate CD
[22:10] <LaserJock> it just messed everything up
[22:10] <svenstaro> Ah. That honestly was the worst decision and almost the last nail in Edubuntu's preliminary coffin so far, in my opinion.
[22:10] <LaserJock> well, we really didn't have much of a choice at the time
[22:10] <alkisg> If someone makes e.g. a package that installs a role, how can he include it to edubuntu - I mean it won't even be in universe...
[22:10] <mhall119|work> LTSP needed to be in the Ubuntu images
[22:11] <LaserJock> but yeah, it didn't work out as well as we'd have liked
[22:11] <Ahmuck-Jr> mhall119|work: i just noticed a vdi
[22:11] <sbalneav> Nice to say, but with only one person actually working on the distro images, a bootable disk was unmaintanable.
[22:11] <mhall119|work> Ahmuck-Jr: of Qimo?
[22:11] <sbalneav> So it was a decistion that had to be made.
[22:11] <LaserJock> alkisg: how do you mean?
[22:12] <mhall119|work> okay, I'm heading home
[22:12] <mhall119|work> talk to you guys later
[22:12] <mhall119|work> and thanks for bringing me in
[22:12] <highvoltage> bye mhall119|work! thanks for dropping in
[22:12] <highvoltage> LaserJock: not sure how long I'll be able to stay awake either
[22:12] <svenstaro> Can anybody get me up to speed about the Ubuntu live cd technical background? Is it using Aufs2 and Squashfs?
[22:13] <LaserJock> squashfs I know it has used
[22:13] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I'll ping colin tomorrow morning on IRC and have a quick chat, then I'll send him an e-mail as a formality
[22:13] <LaserJock> I'm not sure on the technical stuff
[22:13] <LaserJock> highvoltage: good, thanks
[22:13] <highvoltage> LaserJock: we're still in a very tight spot, of course, but I think we're more or less steering into course at least
[22:14] <highvoltage> LaserJock: with some clever manuevering we might just have a nice 9.10 release yet
[22:14] <svenstaro> Whom do I bug to pull my repo on launchpad when I'm done?
[22:14] <alkisg> LaserJock: suppose that I create a package that when it's installed it setups an LTSP server specialized for schools with mixed windows/ltsp environments. Or LDAP. Or whatever. How would this package fit to edubuntu, since it won't even be in universe?
[22:15] <LaserJock> svenstaro: pull what repo?
[22:15] <LaserJock> alkisg: why wouldn't it be in Universe?
[22:15] <svenstaro> alkisg: Why couldn't you just put that package into the repo? It would be a critical Edubuntu package, after all.
[22:15] <alkisg> LaserJock: so the formal way would be for me to become a motu and try to get it into Universe, before it goes into Edubuntu?
[22:15] <highvoltage> svenstaro: start by putting it into a PPA, then it can at least be tested and reviewed.
[22:15] <LaserJock> right now we have the following installable tasks "Edubuntu Desktop", "Edubuntu KDE Desktop", "Edubuntu Server"
[22:16] <svenstaro> LaserJock: I have my launchpad account and I can create multiple projects on that one as you know. When I want something to included in Edubuntu officially, I need to bug someone with the powa to pull it in.
[22:16] <LaserJock> alkisg: you don't have to be a MOTU no, you just need to get 2 MOTUs to sign off on it
[22:16] <LaserJock> svenstaro: right now myself and stgraber have access rights
[22:17] <Ahmuck-Jr> something i'd like to add, for junior high, high school, i noticed software the other day for "ear training" and "note reading" for music.  i haven't had time to look at these, but did not notice them in edubuntu. i may have missed them however
[22:17] <svenstaro> Uh, that's quite a high bus factor. Anyhow, will it be enough if I bug the mailing list, you guys test my PPA, sign it off and pull it in?
[22:17] <highvoltage> alkisg: I've had my first package approved last week, my second one just yesterday, the reviewers are quite efficient, both my packages got approved the same day I uploaded them to revu
[22:17] <highvoltage> alkisg: so you can actually get quite far without being a motu
[22:17] <Michelle_Qimo> Ahmuck-Jr: we've actually looked at those apps, they're quite good
[22:17] <alkisg> LaserJock, highvoltage: Right. So every role would need to go to universe with the usual ways before it's considered for inclusion for edubuntu, did I understand it correctly?
[22:18] <alkisg> (role = edubuntu installation role, task, package ...)
[22:18] <highvoltage> alkisg: yes, as with any official ubuntu-based system
[22:18] <LaserJock> alkisg: not necessarily
[22:18] <LaserJock> I mean, the way we define those roles is by seeds
[22:18] <LaserJock> they *do* end up as .debs but they'd likely be from an existing source package
[22:18] <LaserJock> so no need to get them "approved" really
[22:18] <highvoltage> which would still need to be in the archives
[22:19] <Ahmuck-Jr> Michelle_Qimo: another app you might be intersted in is anki
[22:19] <alkisg> OK, got it, thanks
[22:19] <LaserJock> it would just go through binary NEW, which is pretty trivial
[22:19] <svenstaro> How can I run a trivial script on the live DVD to events like start up and shut down? Do I actually need to create a package just to get the data in?
[22:19] <Michelle_Qimo> Ahmuck-Jr: I will certainly look into it!
[22:19] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://ichi2.net/anki/
[22:20] <LaserJock> svenstaro: until a couple weeks ago it was just myself that had upload/commit rights :(
[22:20] <highvoltage> svenstaro: yes, but that's easy
[22:21] <highvoltage> svenstaro: it would just be a usual package that calls update-rc.d in postinst/postrm. if it's only ever going to be on the livecd then it goes into the initramfs
[22:21] <LaserJock> you guys might also have noticed that Edubuntu is no longer required to build from Main
[22:21] <LaserJock> i.e. we can include Universe packages on the DVD
[22:21] <alkisg> Yeah, that was a great decision :)
[22:22] <Ahmuck-Jr> Michelle_Qimo: another app is "World of Goo" ... it teaches physics (sorta) while having gameplay.  It's a pay program.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Goo
[22:22] <svenstaro> Why can't it all be KISS :/
[22:23] <highvoltage> svenstaro: it's more or less as simple as it can be at the moment
[22:23] <svenstaro> Ahmuck-Jr: That game is excellent but do we want kids playing that game all along?
[22:23] <Ahmuck-Jr> Michelle_Qimo: i find kids learn well intuativly sometimes when they don't know they are learning.  other times, the gameplay gets in the way
[22:23] <LaserJock> so right now we've got 4 app bundles, ubuntu-edu-{preschool,primary,secondary,tertiary} and 3 meta packages, edubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-desktop-kde, and edubuntu-server
[22:23] <svenstaro> Ahmuck-Jr: Also the EU probably wouldn't like Edubuntu praising a single commercial game.
[22:23] <highvoltage> svenstaro: you can't really put together a system as big as ubuntu together cowboy-style, there has to be proper ways to do things to keep it maintainable
[22:23] <Ahmuck-Jr> svenstaro: imho, if you can get kids to connect the world of goo with popsicle sticks i don't have an issue with them playing games
[22:23] <alkisg> LaserJock: it would be nice if those app bundles were selectable from within ubiquity
[22:24] <alkisg> (even if it results in a post-install task)
[22:24] <LaserJock> I suggest as a first step to get a DVD that works and to get the available meta-packages/task in good shape
[22:24] <Michelle_Qimo> game playing has it's place.  incorporating intuitive learning into game play is so important, and yet difficult.
[22:24] <svenstaro> highvoltage: Actually, I'm using Aufs2 overlays for my own distribution and while it of course isn't as big as Edubuntu, it does quite a lot of magic and I don't need a billion of packages (overhead!) but can just go, modify a confic file, bake the iso, done!
[22:24] <Ahmuck-Jr> svenstaro: anytime you can get a child to apply learning with real world techniques, then it's a go.  do you know that children learn things really well with songs?
[22:25] <LaserJock> svenstaro: right, but from our perspective we should never have to touch the actual build process
[22:25] <LaserJock> svenstaro: all we have to do is upload a package
[22:25] <highvoltage> svenstaro: and when someone needs to take that project over from you one day, they wouldn't know which files you have touched or modified
[22:25] <Michelle_Qimo> Ahmuck-Jr: there are whole sets of language-learning tools that are set to song
[22:25] <LaserJock> which is significantly more maintainable
[22:25] <Michelle_Qimo> we have the French set
[22:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> svenstaro: there are other more advanced phyics games out there as well
[22:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> Michelle_Qimo: in linux ?
[22:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> really?
[22:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> i'd like a link
[22:25] <Michelle_Qimo> no, unfortunately, not linux-based
[22:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> :(
[22:25] <Michelle_Qimo> actually car-stereo based.
[22:26] <Michelle_Qimo> :-P
[22:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> ah
[22:26] <highvoltage> Michelle_Qimo: heh
[22:26] <svenstaro> highvoltage: Yes they would, because the config files are an overlay that gets layered on top of the base system so that you effectively have only around 10 configs in there and they are all documented :)
[22:26] <Michelle_Qimo> I'd *love* to have something for the Qimo machines that sets language learning to music
[22:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> bbl, need to see the doc
[22:26] <svenstaro> Ahmuck-Jr: What open source physics game is there that compares to World Of Goo?
[22:28] <LaserJock> have you guys used brainstorm.ubuntu.com ?
[22:28] <svenstaro> Of course
[22:28] <sbalneav> OK, heading home for the day.
[22:28] <sbalneav> See you all later.
[22:29] <LaserJock> there are sections on brainstorm for Edubuntu and Education
[22:29] <LaserJock> I would highly encourage people to use them
[22:29] <LaserJock> sbalneav: cya
[22:29] <svenstaro> Oh, that's another thing: I *really* think Edubuntu forums should be separate from the other official *buntus because the use case is *entirely* different.
[22:30] <svenstaro> Edubuntu questions usually get flooded by Ubuntu questions too fast for Edubuntu people to even find that thread.
[22:30] <LaserJock> well, we don't exactly have a forum period
[22:30] <LaserJock> I had the Education & Science section of the Ubuntu Forums created to give some space
[22:31] <LaserJock> but honestly I'm not sure we're big enough to warrant a forum
[22:31] <LaserJock> could be in the future if things take off it would be sensible to do
[22:32] <LaserJock> but right now I think it might be "yet another thing we have to maintain"
[22:32] <LaserJock> unfortunately that's the way a lot of things are right now :(
[22:33] <LaserJock> we need some critical mass of contributors
[22:33] <svenstaro> I wouldn't mind hosting a forum.
[22:35] <LaserJock> you could put it up as a discussion topic at the next meeting
[22:35] <LaserJock> right now I'm personally more interesting in getting a product worth supporting than support resources per se
[22:35] <LaserJock> but that's sort of my bias
[22:38] <Michelle_Qimo> I don't know what, if anything, I can contribute (my technical skills are minimal at best), but should anything come up that I can help with, please don't hesitate to let me know?
[22:38] <svenstaro> Michelle_Qimo: w
[22:39] <svenstaro> Michelle_Qimo: Write a user's experience analysis, for example.
[22:39] <LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo: what kind of stuff do you do?
[22:39] <LaserJock> any art, writing, marketing ... ?
[22:39] <Michelle_Qimo> LaserJock: I'm an english major.  :-)  Most of what I do is advocacy & promotion, writing, etc.
[22:39] <LaserJock> oh, excellent
[22:40] <LaserJock> I'm about as far from an english major as you can get
[22:40] <LaserJock> :-)
[22:40] <Michelle_Qimo> certainly willing to jump on board with technical writing, etc.
[22:40] <LaserJock> great
[22:40] <LaserJock> something that I feel we've *really* been missing is some nice, usable, documentation for the educational apps themselves
[22:40] <Michelle_Qimo> oh, absolutely!
[22:41] <LaserJock> something along the lines of for a parent or teacher
[22:41] <Michelle_Qimo> We've actually been talking about putting together a manual for the apps that we send out with Qimo.  I'd *certainly* be onboard for that
[22:41] <LaserJock> like, we just shove apps at them
[22:41] <Michelle_Qimo> that's the truth.  Here ya go, have fun...  well, that doesn't work so well sometimes
[22:41] <LaserJock> but we don't really give them much info
[22:42] <LaserJock> I think that would be an excellent contribution
[22:42] <Michelle_Qimo> if a one-app-at-a-time schedule works well for you all, I'm more than willing
[22:42] <LaserJock> whatever you'd like
[22:43] <Michelle_Qimo> is there a standard apps list?
[22:43] <LaserJock> one sec
[22:43] <LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo: http://www.edubuntu.org/applications/8.10 is the best we have right now
[22:44] <Ahmuck-Jr> Michelle_Qimo: i was thinking, if you had an idea what type of song/language things you might want, i've got a few muscian song writing friends and composers that might be able to put something togather.  however the programming would have to be for someone else
[22:44] <Ahmuck-Jr> LaserJock: isn't that a list that nubae put toghater?
[22:44] <LaserJock> yep
[22:44] <LaserJock> we don't seem to have one for 9.04
[22:44] <Michelle_Qimo> Ahmuck-Jr: I will think on it
[22:45] <Michelle_Qimo> LaserJock: I will take a look.  It gives me a starting point, at any rate
[22:45] <svenstaro> I've gotta run guys. Can we decide on so much that I will try to split up the Edubuntu installer to (using plugins if possible) to different installation profiles?
[22:46] <LaserJock> svenstaro: as a first step here's what I'd do, I'd talk with #ubuntu-installer about what the current abilities of Ubiqiuty are regarding plugins
[22:46] <LaserJock> svenstaro: and then report back with a plan to edubuntu-devel
[22:47] <LaserJock> if we can do it without forking Ubiquity altogether and just adding in some hooks somewhere then I'm certainly all for it
[22:47] <LaserJock> we have some "profiles" already we can use
[22:47] <LaserJock> and we can expand those, especially regarding LTSP
[22:48] <LaserJock> I've gotta run too
[22:48] <LaserJock> or else the PhD won't happen :-)
[22:49] <LaserJock> once I've moved to Boston and have the Air Force thing figured out hopefully I'll be able to do some actual work
[22:49] <LaserJock> probably for karmic+1
[22:58] <svenstaro> I'll be gone as well guys, bye.


[19:40] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: Nvidia 430.14 Linux Driver Improves Performance for DiRT 4 and Wolfenstein II @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/nvidia-430-14-linux-driver-improves-performance-for-dirt-4-and-wolfenstein-ii-526030.shtml (by Marius Nestor)
[23:03] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Softpedia:: Canonical Releases Ubuntu Updates to Mitigate New MDS Security Vulnerabilities @ https://news.softpedia.com/news/canonical-releases-ubuntu-updates-to-mitigate-new-mds-security-vulnerabilities-526031.shtml (by Marius Nestor)


[00:57] <bweinel> ...anybody home?
[18:17] <Nivex> I'm having trouble with a machine running Xubuntu Saucy where I click Shutdown or Reboot in the logout screen and it dumps me back to the login prompt. Other saucy machines I have don't do this. Where should I start troubleshooting?
[18:20] <holstein> Nivex: i would try issuing the commands from tty or the terminal
[18:22] <Nivex> shutdown -r works, so it's clearly something in the GUI chain
[18:22] <Nivex> it's just that there's been so much abstraction over the years
[18:22] <Nivex> I have a vague notion it might be something in the consolekit interaction
[18:23] <holstein> Nivex: i would try as another user, or temporarily move/rename the .config... or just remove the "saved sessions" in xfce


[09:12] <studiobot> Rogman was removed by: Rogman
[12:05] <wonko> OvenWerks: so, on 19.10 and the jackd restarts still exist. What do we do next?