[09:24] <cub> the "link" to G+ Community Page on http://ubuntustudio.org/support/ is not actually a link.
[09:25] <DarkEra> you mean the community page?
[09:25] <cub> zequence, are you alone on updating the webpage?
[09:25] <cub> yes, directly under Social Channels in the main column
[09:26] <DarkEra> yep, that one seems dead
[09:26] <cub> <a href"https://plus.google.com/communities/105814407877662644885">Google community page</a>
[09:26] <cub> missing a =
[11:09] <cub> zequence, to follow up on your email about "Contributors needed to define our workflows", are there any earlier templates or examples to look at to start out with?
[12:57] <smartboyhw> Hey DarkEra
[12:57] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, zequence OvenWerks et al. We will start our Classroom QA sessions today at 14:00 UTC in #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
[12:57] <smartboyhw> We = Ubuntu QA Team
[12:57]  * smartboyhw will feature on 1st July.
[12:59] <DarkEra> hey smartboyhw
[13:01] <DarkEra> 14:00 utc... need to convert that to my local time
[13:01] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, one hour later.
[13:01] <smartboyhw> Exactly.
[13:02] <DarkEra> that should be now then?
[13:03] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, no.
[13:03] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, you messed up with British Summer Time.
[13:04] <DarkEra> doh...
[13:06] <DarkEra> need to go in a few and will be back in a hour or so
[13:06] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
[13:07] <DarkEra> last PUVA treatment today... Yay!
[13:10] <smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
[13:20] <DarkEra> ok, gotta go. I'll be back later again ;)
[13:28] <OvenWerks> cub: we had some very quick work flow defs, but they were:
[13:29] <OvenWerks> workflow name, apps needed and thats about it.
[13:30] <smartboyhw> Actually that's 14:30 UTC.
[13:32] <cub> OvenWerks, as for workflow Desktop then, one use case could be "I need to write a CV"?
[13:32] <cub> or "I need to set up a homepage at xyz provider"
[13:36] <OvenWerks> That actually sounds like a good way to go. (whats a "CV"?)
[13:36] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ... you really don't know?
[13:36] <smartboyhw> Sounds like you haven't applied for a job.
[13:36] <smartboyhw> before:P
[13:37] <OvenWerks> I would not worry about it being perfect though. editing is always possible.
[13:37] <smartboyhw> Curriculum Vitae
[13:37] <cub> yeah perhaps resume is more used outside of Sweden. :D
[13:37] <OvenWerks> Ah... I have at least heard of that
[13:38] <OvenWerks> I would have understood resume, yes.
[13:38] <OvenWerks> I haven't applied for a job in 27 years.
[13:38] <cub> Hmm without any limitations on workflows we could end up with an infinite amount for the desktop use
[13:38] <smartboyhw> OvenWerks, :O
[13:38] <smartboyhw> ...
[13:38] <cub> -workflow + use case
[13:39] <OvenWerks> I would think that there are any number of use cases that might use the same workflow.
[13:42] <OvenWerks> So it might be better to name the workflow and list usecases for that workflow.
[13:42] <cub> yes, but to cover everything a user might want to do..? :D
[13:43] <OvenWerks> My sister lives in Calgary, I am just seeing some pictures of flood damage to the house I grew up in.
[13:44] <cub> oh, bad?
[13:44] <OvenWerks> Mud line is about 3 feet up the outside.
[13:45] <OvenWerks> the basment is/was full of water, but it looks like the main floor is ok.
[13:45] <OvenWerks> evac is still in effect
[13:46] <OvenWerks> cub we are not trying to cover every thing.
[13:47] <OvenWerks> One hopes the user can take a basic workflow and adapt :)
[13:47] <cub> that's why I asked, to know what we aim for to begin with..and then develop from there.
[13:48] <OvenWerks> I'm not very good at figuring these things out. (I make a bad teacher) I tend to over simplify.
[13:50] <OvenWerks> Best to start with whatever is on your mind and go from there. If it is something you have used personally, that would be good I think.
[13:50] <zequence> cub: no blueprints really. I think what you want is probably start by making a list of all applications for a workflow (generating it may be done using some apt magic), and then start investigating what we have, what we should have, and what we might not need, etc
[13:50] <smartboyhw> cub, we have too many blueprints (the blueprint dependency graph faints me)
[13:50]  * OvenWerks has to go.
[13:50] <zequence> cub: also, we need to do testing on the applications we include, to make sure they have all promised features (sometimes debian imports have bugs)
[13:50] <cub> I can hardly read the blueprints
[13:51] <cub> because they autosizes
[13:51] <OvenWerks> hover your mouse over anything
[13:52] <cub> yes but when looking at an overview it's just tiny spheres and the hover doesn't do much. Or it's something strange in my chromium/chrome browsers
[13:52] <zequence> cub: Yeah, or use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PermanentBlueprintOverview
[13:53] <zequence> might be incomplete at the moment though (i made that only because of the problems with overviewing at LP)
[13:54] <zequence> OvenWerks: may I suggest to name your installer "ubuntustudio-installer", and give it a desktop file. If enabling a command line version, just let the gui version be started with an argument like how winetrics: ubuntustudio --gui, which could be the start command on the desktop file
[13:55] <zequence> ..like how the gui version of winetricks is started, was what I meant to say
[13:55] <zequence> which is: winetricks --gui
[13:55] <zequence> also using zenity
[13:56] <zequence> cub: I suggested to reorganize the blueprints completely, which I'd like to do once I have some time over
[13:57] <zequence> we dont' really need a lot of Ubuntu project blueprints, and removing those would reduce the amount
[13:57] <cub> there's that word again "time" :P
[13:57] <zequence> and not everything needs to depend on each other
[13:57] <zequence> right now I need to get linux-lowlatency built, which wasn't happening before
[13:57] <zequence> and then prepare tomorrows linux class
[13:58] <cub> how do you keep track of everything that needs to be done?
[13:59] <cub> is it through the blueprints, or some massive offline project management sheet?
[13:59] <smartboyhw> cub, blueprints.
[14:00] <cub> must be hard to keep track though, that not something falls in between somewhere and is forgotten
[14:00] <smartboyhw> zequence, cub, I like trello boards actually:P
[14:00] <cub> I don't like trello much, but I use them as well. :D
[14:01] <cub> Kanbanize and Kanbanery too
[14:03] <cub> I'm mostly curious since being new here I find it quite hard to get a grip on the different processes
[14:03] <cub> and I work a lot recently to implement Lean thinking at my job so it's a lot of processes and kanban boards around
[14:03] <cub> and I'm also a Service Manager and Project Manager so I run multiple projects for customer
[14:04] <cub> it's so easy to miss out on some small detail that suddenly breaks everything. :P Like "Oh did someone open port 80 to the web fronts?"
[14:05] <zequence> cub: there's no need for central planning in most cases
[14:05] <zequence> but, a project lead usually finds himself informed about everything
[14:06] <zequence> it's actually much better I think, if people can focus on less
[14:06] <zequence> it's really just about finding something interesting, and starting to work on that
[14:07] <zequence> what developers should keep track of is changes in sources, which are posted by email if something was changed
[14:08] <zequence> for sources that they would be concerned about
[14:09] <zequence> there isn't yet established procedures for everything, and thus, not docs for it
[14:09] <zequence> the idea is that we use the wiki for documenting stuff like that
[14:10] <zequence> but, at the same time, it's fairly simple right now
[14:10] <zequence> the more people we have working, the more gets done
[14:11] <zequence> the blueprints are not only a way to document what should be done, but also a memory for what could/should be done, if someone's interested in investigating
[14:12] <cub> I see
[14:33] <smartboyhw> zequence, question: Do you still have the presentation slide that you used during UDS-R in Oakland for Ubuntu Studio's presentation?
[14:41] <zequence> smartboyhw: I suspect not :)
[14:41] <smartboyhw> zequence, damnit...... :P
[14:47] <smartboyhw> zequence, you need to join in the #ubuntu-classroom chan also.
[14:48] <zequence> smartboyhw: you booked a class room session, or?
[14:48] <smartboyhw> zequence, 1st July. ISO testing.
[14:48] <zequence> ok
[14:48] <smartboyhw> 13:00 - 15:00 UTC.
[15:30] <holstein> i like messages like "hey, i noticed the download links are incorrect.. can i help with that in any way?"
[15:31] <holstein> but, reporting is helpful
[15:59] <holstein> 11:53 < Paladine> am trying to get a bunch of Linux build to switch their default search engine in their browser to a more  privacy focused solution other than Google
[16:00] <holstein> this was implied as a reponse to PRISM
[16:00] <holstein> personally, as i usually say, im with you guys as far as what defaults you ant to go with
[16:00] <holstein> i dont think switching from google has anything to do with addressing the "PRISM" concern.. since *all* traffic goes through PRISM
[16:00] <Paladine> well I am the privacy spokesperson for Ixquick and Startpage (same company)
[16:01] <Paladine> who are based in the Netherlands
[16:01] <holstein> but, i dont mind having that (responsible) conversation
[16:01] <Paladine> and are not subject to US law
[16:01] <Paladine> all traffic doesn't go through PRISM
[16:01] <Paladine> I am not sure where you got that information
[16:02] <Paladine> PRISM is the programme the NSA use under FISAAA to gain access to the content of various services
[16:02] <Paladine> all of those services are based in the US and subject to FISC orders
[16:03] <Paladine> Tempora in the UK is more serious, they fibre tap over 200 data cables originating and terminating int he UK
[16:03] <holstein> its splits the optical data connection and collects *all* traffic
[16:03] <holstein> like a prism
[16:03] <Paladine> you are incorrect
[16:03] <holstein> im not the only one then
[16:03] <Paladine> PRISM is not a physical interception
[16:03] <Paladine> PRISM is just the name of the program
[16:03] <holstein> plus, its not google data that is in question. its *all* data
[16:04] <Paladine> no it is the data of major US service providers
[16:04] <holstein> anyways.. im not here to debate things i dont know about
[16:04] <Paladine> and they gain access via FISC orders
[16:04] <holstein> what i will debate is.. changing from google will do nothing to actually address anything
[16:04] <Paladine> well actually it will
[16:04] <holstein> sure
[16:04] <holstein> and thats what im disagreeing with
[16:04] <Paladine> since Ixquick and Startpage are not in the US they are not subject to US law and therefore completely immune to PRISM
[16:05] <holstein> you are not immune to data recording
[16:05] <holstein> no one would be
[16:05] <Paladine> they are alsoimmune to Tempora since all their incoming connections are encrypted
[16:05] <holstein> but, again.. im not going to debate that
[16:05] <Paladine> I don't want to have a fight but as a globally respect expert on these issues, I have to disagree with you
[16:05] <Paladine> you misunderstand completely what PRISM is
[16:05] <holstein> if you want to make a suggestion about switching from google, i'll hear that.. and the team will welcome the suggestion
[16:06] <holstein> Paladine: i dont need to "understand" to say.. switching from google will do nothing to address the issue
[16:06] <holstein> the traffic still comes and goes where it is, as of now
[16:06] <holstein> but, again, you can make the suggestion, and are welcome to do so.. and encouraged
[16:06] <Paladine> switching from Google to a searchengine in the EU which falls under EU law and is explicitly NOT vulnerable to PRISM or any other programme under US law
[16:06] <holstein> but, you wont sell me on it being a "fix" for privacy
[16:06] <Paladine> is a significant improvement for your users' privacy
[16:07] <holstein> improvment?
[16:07] <holstein> either its "safe" or its not
[16:07] <Paladine> it is safe
[16:07] <Paladine> why are you being so aggressive?
[16:07] <holstein> im not
[16:07] <holstein> im being realistic.. and trying my best to keep my opinion from the facts
[16:07] <Paladine> first let me explain again what PRISM is (it is clearly not what you think)
[16:07] <holstein> Paladine: i dont think its what you think
[16:08] <holstein> data is collected..
[16:08] <holstein> and, its not a debate that we need to hae
[16:08] <Paladine> PRISM is the NSA programme which through Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and PATRIOT provisions for Business Records under order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court gains access to the systems of some of the worlds largest US based service providerrs
[16:08] <holstein> have*
[16:08] <Paladine> will you please listen?
[16:08] <holstein> you are offering a privacy solution.. and im questioning it
[16:08] <holstein> Paladine: im listeing, but its not for me
[16:09] <holstein> Paladine: i dont make the decisions
[16:09] <holstein> im only stating that i dont think its a solution to the issue
[16:09] <Paladine> you are not giving me the chance to explain you keep interrupting with your misinterpretation of what PRISM is
[16:09] <holstein> Paladine: you make the case to zequence, and the team decides.. and i stand behind the decision of the team
[16:10] <Paladine> as I said, your understanding of what PRISM is is completely erroneous
[16:10] <holstein> Paladine: but, i will say.. i need to see some facts that state you are getting around this data collection before i "trust" it
[16:10] <Paladine> you seem to think it is some sort of physical interception programme, it is not
[16:10] <holstein> Paladine: as i said, my understanding of it is irrelevant
[16:10] <Paladine> PRISM only imapcts US companies because they are subject to the jurisdiction of FISC - non US companies are NOT subject to FISC orders
[16:11] <Paladine> the problem is most of the worlds giant tech companies are US companies
[16:11] <holstein> Paladine: just state the case here, and in the dev mailing list.. its not my decision
[16:11] <Paladine> which is why PRISM is such an effective intelligence programme
[16:11] <Paladine> but companies outside the US are immune to PRISM
[16:12] <Paladine> Ixquick and Startpage are based in the Netherlands, they are certified by Europrise (who in turn are funded by the European Commission)
[16:12] <holstein> Paladine: and im saying, your data is still being intercepted, though you may be "immune" to US
[16:12] <Paladine> they were the first company ever to be awarded the Europrise certification
[16:12] <Paladine> again you are incorrect, PRISM is NOT an intercept programme
[16:12] <holstein> i never stated it was a program at all
[16:12] <holstein> but, again.. its not up to me
[16:13] <Paladine> PRISM is a "Business Records" provision (PATRIOT) access programme
[16:13] <holstein> state the case, and include the information.. i would start with zequence
[16:13] <holstein> he is the team lead.. and as i said.. i stand behind the team's decisions
[16:13] <Paladine> well if you would stop interrupting me, maybe I could
[16:13] <holstein> !volunteers | Paladine
[16:13] <holstein> Paladine: try the mailing list
[16:13] <Paladine> but you know what, I don't think I will bother, I will just talk to Mark Shuttleworth instead
[16:14] <holstein> Paladine: sure.. you are welcome, and encouraged to speak to anyone you like
[16:14] <Paladine> it is bad enough when the government lie to people, it is equally frustrating when members of the public try to tell people know what something does that they are wrong, even when those people are experts in their field
[16:15] <Paladine> your understanding of PRISM is completely wrong, I urge you to go and actually do the research on what it does, before you start to condemn all solutions on a completely erroneous pretence
[16:15] <holstein> Paladine: i assure you im not lying.. or saying you are wrong
[16:15] <Paladine> I never accused you of lying, I said your understanding is false
[16:15] <holstein> im saying, i dont trust your alternative (personally) to address the issue you are stating that it can
[16:16] <holstein> Paladine: i understand you are not bound by us law.. but, im saying, you can not guarantee me my traffic to your servers is not being intercepted
[16:16] <Paladine> they are not my servers
[16:16] <Paladine> I am a privacy advocate
[16:16] <holstein> switching to your search provider may not be the answer to the question
[16:16] <Paladine> I don't work for anyone
[16:17] <Paladine> all the traffic to their servers is encrypted by default
[16:17] <holstein> Paladine: the company you are mentioning. that i thought you implied you were representing.. maybe i mis understood
[16:17] <Paladine> so even if it is intercepted it is useless
[16:18] <holstein> Paladine: sounds good.. you can include that in the email.. or messages to zequence and/or Mark Shuttleworth
[16:18] <Paladine> Google use HTTPS too but they can be compelled to hand over the keys or provide access to the data once it is decrypted at their end under FISA
[16:18] <holstein> and, what would compell the company you mention to hand over the data? and who would they be compelled to hand it over to?
[16:19] <Paladine> there is no equivelant law to compel them
[16:19] <holstein> Paladine: i never said "law"
[16:19] <holstein> anyways.. these are realistic questions/concerns that i think you should expect to hear
[16:19] <Paladine> nothing would compel them, they entire purpose is to provide private searches, they have invested considerable money to do just that
[16:20] <holstein> so, money would be compelling?
[16:20] <Paladine> no
[16:20] <Paladine> read what I said
[16:21] <holstein> Paladine: all im saying is.. i dont trust google already.. i dont know you, and i dont trust the company i just heard of either.. that you mentioned
[16:21] <Paladine> they don't log anything, they provide proxied results, they provide cookieless settings, they are externally audited by the most respected privacy certification org in europe
[16:21] <holstein> that is all.. its not a big deal.. and im not the person who decides.. its a community
[16:27] <holstein> Paladine: this is the devel mailing list i was referring to https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-Studio-devel
[16:27] <holstein> its actually quite active.. though zequence will be in here at some point
[16:27] <holstein> some folks dont do IRC, which can make it a bit challenging to meet with the entire team in realtime
[16:28] <Paladine> I presume you take your browser defaults from upstream?
[16:29] <holstein> Paladine: right now, xubuntu is mostly our "upstream".. though, we can customize
[16:30] <Paladine> what is the estimated userbase of US nowadays?
[16:30] <holstein> i know i use is
[16:30] <Paladine> I haven't used it since about 2008 or something
[16:30] <holstein> it*
[16:30] <holstein> i assume the other dev's do.. so at least 6 of us
[17:11] <zequence> I'm certainly open to the idea of providing another default search than google
[17:12] <zequence> Paladine: ^
[17:12] <Paladine> hey
[17:12] <zequence> We don't have any specific settings for any of the applications we have preinstalled
[17:12] <zequence> the settings come with the package itself
[17:12] <Paladine> can I discuss this in PM?
[17:12] <zequence> rather not :)
[17:13] <zequence> I don't see it being a private issue anyway
[17:13] <Paladine> just quieter :)
[17:13] <Paladine> did you read the info I posted before?
[17:14] <Paladine> I will summarise
[17:14] <Paladine> basically the default search in Firefox is Google (for most people)
[17:15] <Paladine> Google are known to be subject to FISAAA/FISC orders
[17:15] <Paladine> and PRISM
[17:15] <Paladine> as are all US based corporations
[17:15] <Paladine> or any non US based corporation with servers in the US
[17:16] <Paladine> as a privacy advocate I would like to see more open source solutions providing access to services which are not subject to those laws
[17:16] <zequence> I actually think this is something that should be discussed more centrally withing Ubuntu and also Debian
[17:16] <Paladine> I am currently working with Ixquick/Startpage to try and increase awareness of privacy enhancing technologies
[17:17] <zequence> The set of search engines can be changed for the firefox package
[17:17] <Paladine> well I have contacted canonical but it is far more difficult to discuss these things with them than smaller derivatives
[17:17] <Paladine> given the financial link between mozilla and google
[17:17] <zequence> as for other browser, not sure how that works. I know "web" defaults to google, while chromium doesn't have all that many options
[17:18] <zequence> how did you contact canonical?
[17:18] <zequence> It might be best to discuss on a devel related mail list
[17:18] <Paladine> I emailed them, actually Mark directly
[17:18] <zequence> like, ubuntu-devel-discuss
[17:18] <Paladine> I have spoken to Mark about privacy stuff before so he knows me
[17:18] <Paladine> but I wouldn't be surprised if there is an agreement in place with Google already
[17:19] <Paladine> I don't know if there is but I would be surprised if there isnt
[17:19] <zequence> I think it's more about packaging, and community voice actually
[17:19] <zequence> in which case, I'd recommend to begin a discussion on ubuntu-devel-discuss
[17:20] <zequence> this here https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
[17:21] <zequence> the discussion would also reveal what other problems there may be to consider
[17:22] <Paladine> and if Canonical decided not to, would you guys still be open to discussion at the US level?
[17:22] <Paladine> (Ubuntu Studio = US)
[17:23] <zequence> Sure, but this is something that is best suited to discuss as far "upstream" as possible, really
[17:24] <Paladine> yeah I am posting to the list now
[17:24] <zequence> Meaning, first starting with the application developers, than with the packagers
[17:25] <zequence> At least, i think it would make sense to include a privacy respecting search engine for web browser
[17:25] <zequence> web browsers*
[17:25] <zequence> it's still up to the user what to choose
[17:25] <Paladine> well from my perspective I would prefer to have this implemented as far upstream as possible for obvious reasons, I am just not so confident it will happen - no offense to the FOSS community but in my experience it is somewhat full of Google fanboys
[17:26] <Paladine> I am in th eprocess of discussing the issue with Alex Fowler at Mozilla too, but they have an existing relationship with Google which is the source of most of their revenues so it is much more difficult to gain any traction at that level
[17:59] <Paladine> ok posted to the list, you should be able to see it now
[18:02] <zequence> Paladine: Looks very well written :). Let's hope many people read it and turn it into an interesting discussion
[18:03] <Paladine> thanks
[18:03] <Paladine> I hope so too
[18:05] <DarkEra> olah zequence
[18:42] <Paladine> dinner back shortly
[19:06] <cub> Getting back to my inquires earlier about checking use cases against the workflows, should the aim to be to test with Saucy? Or is the interest in testing for the released versions as well?
[19:16] <zequence> cub: saucy is prio. Any bugs should be reported, so we have a chance to fix them before release
[19:16] <cub> downloading now
[19:17] <cub> I haven't been involved with development releases before, but if I download the latest iso today and run in virtualbox, it will be able to keep updtated through apt-get still? Or do I need to download new iso-build every time?
[19:18] <zequence> cub: updates are enough
[19:19] <zequence> cub: but, sometimes, especially if an applications is updated to a newer version, like say, XFCE, user settings may not work as intended
[19:19] <cub> ok
[19:20] <zequence> the app is updated, but not necessarily the user settings
[19:26] <DarkEra> zequence, you have the link to saucy's mini.iso's by chance?  seems i lost the last one. Had enough of VB because it just doesn't seem to work on my end so i need to install it on bare metal
[19:30] <zequence> DarkEra: I usually use this page to get the links https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD
[19:30] <zequence> just replace a release name with "saucy"
[19:30] <DarkEra> thanks buddy
[22:55] <DarkEra> looks like it's a total no go. Did a CLI install on the netbook of 13.10, added the ppa and want to install the gnome meta package of Ubuntu Studio. It complains about broken packages
[22:55] <DarkEra> i'm about to drop it


[03:32] <bigjools> if I have an arbitrary number of channels in an array, can I select on them?
[15:38] <irossi> Does anyone know if juju jitsu has a way to specify more than one particular machine to deploy multiple service units?
[15:39] <irossi> For instance, I have ceph-mon deployed on three machines, but I want to deploy ceph-osd on the same three machines. As far as I can see, with jitsu I can only specify ONE machine for a particular service. I would like to do something like add-unit and add in the other two machines.
[19:29] <rogpeppe> dimitern: github.com/caglar10ur/lxc
[19:32] <rogpeppe> dimitern: you also need: sudo apt-get install lxc-dev
[19:34] <dimitern> rogpeppe: i just got and build plan9port in a fresh lxc container and it works :)
[19:34] <rogpeppe> dimitern: cool


[00:27] <lawler_> /nick  m1chael
[00:27] <lawler_> nick  m1chael
[00:28] <m1chael> im trying to install xubuntu 12.04 but im getting an error  that says something like gfxboot not a com32r image ... i burned t he iso from xfcburn in xubuntu on another computer
[00:43] <Unit193> That sounds like a bad burn, or a corrupt ISO.
[09:25] <Gagarix> Hey folks :) I have a question: I've been trying to install the latest xubuntu from a liveCD but for some reason it doesn't show my /dev/sda1 under available drives. I've googled a bit but can't seem to find anything relevant. Can anyone offer any insight ?
[09:27] <SandJ> /dev/sda1 would be the first partition on the first hard drive.  So, silly questions: do you have a hard drive and has it already got a formatted partition on it?
[09:27] <Gagarix> Considering I've been using it for the past couple of years, yes.
[09:28] <SandJ> Just checking ... you never know!
[09:28] <Gagarix> Debian installer detects it just fine, but xubuntu installer only shows /dev/sdb1 and /dev/sdc1
[09:28] <Gagarix> -.-;
[09:28] <Gagarix> It's been driving me up the wall for the past couple of hours
[09:29] <SandJ> So you have got to the point where it is asking where to install Xubuntu and you were expecting it to say "You have a partition on here, what do you want me to do with it?" and it is saying it can see hard drives 2 and 3.
[09:30] <Gagarix> One sec :)
[09:30] <SandJ> At this point I would boot off the LiveCd and run GParted to see exactly what that tells me.
[09:32] <Gagarix> I apologise, I had a phonecall.
[09:33] <Gagarix> Gparted reports the device as being present and bootable and having one NTFS partition on it (Windows 7)
[09:35] <SandJ> So in the top right it says /dev/sda and when you click on it is there /dev/sdb and /dev/sdc ?
[09:36] <Gagarix> aye, detects all three hard drives
[09:37] <SandJ> So the Xubuntu installer is ignoring your 1st hard drive for some reason, and offering to install on just the other 2.
[09:37] <Gagarix> yes
[09:38] <Gagarix> :/
[09:39] <andythenoob> hi everyone, I have a question for you: Trying to install xubuntu on a new netbook (Asus 1225b) , a boot from the live cd gets me in but when trying to connect to the wireless, the ssid is seen and my password can be entered but the connect button is greyed out and unusable, therefore the password cannot ever be entered for the access point. I tried another distro same problem but i really want to use xubuntu. Wireless
[09:39] <andythenoob> card is a broadcom device, but it sees the ssid ok, its just this inability to enter the wifi pwd. Any clues please?
[09:41] <SandJ> Gagarix, does it look as though that /dev/sda1 partition could be compressed to make room for the Xubuntu installation?  For example, does it need a defrag to clear the end of the partition?
[09:41] <Gagarix> My intention was actually to purge the sda1
[09:41] <hobgoblin> I wonder if there are already 4 partitions on sda - if that's the case it won't see it
[09:41] <Gagarix> And install only xubuntu
[09:42] <Gagarix> hobgoblin: Only one partition
[09:44] <SandJ> Gagarix, do you choose the "Do something else" option which allows you to be very specific about where to install Xubuntu.  I suspect the installer will be helpful and when you choose "install alongside Windows" will see the 2nd drive and kindly propose to do that.
[09:44] <Gagarix> One sec.
[09:44] <Gagarix> Let me see what it says :)
[09:45] <SandJ> Someone with the same problem:  http://ubuntu.5.n6.nabble.com/dual-boot-problem-td4973464.html
[09:45] <hobgoblin> sounds a but odd to me if you only have one partition
[09:46] <Gagarix> heh, the thing is, I don't want to dual-boot x)
[09:46] <SandJ> In that ace, trash the partition in GParted.
[09:46] <SandJ> In that case, trash the partition in GParted.
[09:46] <Gagarix> geez louise, my dvd drive is so slow sometimes -.-;
[09:46] <SandJ> IF YOU WANT IT WIPED, that is.
[09:46] <well_laid_lawn> I think /home on it's own partition is a good idea
[09:47] <hobgoblin> I used to
[09:48] <SandJ> andythenoob: you say "my password can be entered but the connect button is greyed out and unusable, therefore the password cannot ever be entered" which is ambiguous.
[09:48] <Gagarix> whoa :o
[09:48] <Gagarix> this is confusing o.o
[09:48] <Gagarix> I select "Something else"
[09:48] <Gagarix> click continue
[09:48] <Gagarix> and still only /dev/sdb and /dev/sdc :s
[09:49] <Gagarix> what's more, the installer says that this computer has no OS installed o.o
[09:50] <SandJ> Well, that certainly qualifies as "Something else" !
[09:50] <Gagarix> You don't say xD
[09:50] <Gagarix> let's see ... what if I nuke the ntfs partition completely and leave the disk unpartitioned ?
[09:51] <SandJ> Stupid question first: you are happy to lose all its content forever?
[09:51] <Gagarix> I've got nothing worth saving there. :)
[09:51] <Gagarix> Everything worth saving has been backed up.
[09:51] <andythenoob> sandj : you are right, I should be more precise! :-) in essence when I connect to the access point the password entry box pops up and i can type the pwd into the dialogue box but the connect button greyed out and unable to click on.
[09:51] <SandJ> Gagarix, then go for it.  Let's see if there's some reason Xubuntu cannot see that physical device properly.
[09:52] <Gagarix> 'kay
[09:53] <Gagarix> Hrmpf -.-; still doesn't detect sda
[09:54] <Gagarix> only sdb and sdc :/
[09:56] <Gagarix> Think it could be bios-related settings about the hard drive ?
[09:56] <SandJ> Possibly, or time to do a Google search for "ubuntu [drive make] [drive model]"
[09:58] <Gagarix> uh
[09:58] <Gagarix> that's a good question xD i have no idea which one it is
[09:58] <Gagarix> I'll try changing a few things in bios first
[09:59] <SandJ> With any luck the BIOS screen will tell you the drive model number.
[09:59] <Gagarix> Think it might have anything to do with access mode ? :3
[10:00] <Gagarix> (Available options: CHS/LBA/Large/Auto)
[10:04] <hobgoblin> Gagarix: I use auto for all my drives
[10:05] <hobgoblin> does this machine use efi or gpt or something other than mbr - I get confused by the new ones
[10:06] <Gagarix> It's a P4 :P
[10:06] <hobgoblin> ok - that'll be no then :)
[10:06] <Gagarix> brb phone -.-;
[10:06] <hobgoblin> did you use usb or cd to run the installer
[10:07] <Gagarix> cd
[10:07] <Gagarix> can't boot from usb for some reason -.-;
[10:07] <hobgoblin> oh ok
[10:10] <Gagarix> Hm
[10:10] <Gagarix> *boots other pc*
[10:11] <lukeOK> hi guys
[10:12] <lukeOK> knome today i've installed emerald, compiz, the libraries of emerald
[10:12] <lukeOK> remember?
[10:13] <lukeOK> i typed in the terminal compiz --replace to active compiz
[10:13] <lukeOK> but the terminal show me a error
[10:14] <lukeOK> something about decorator
[10:15] <lukeOK> solution?
[10:15] <andythenoob> anyone any clues on why the connect button in a wifi password entry dialogue box would be greyed out and inoperative? (access point itself functioning well)
[10:17] <lukeOK> i don't know
[10:20] <Gagarix> Hm, I'm going to try the alternate xubuntu CD, see if that helps.
[10:21] <hobgoblin> good luck Gagarix
[10:21] <SandJ> andythenoob: I've been struggling to reproduce the behaviour on my wifi netbook.
[10:21] <Gagarix> Lucky I have another computer with a burner :)
[10:21] <Gagarix> And a netbook (on which I am now)
[10:23] <andythenoob> SandJ, i cant find anything on google either...its frustrating as i want to use xubuntu (any linux) rather than M$
[10:23] <SandJ> andythenoob: the only way I can reproduce it is by entering a password that is not of the right length - which means an incorrect password.
[10:24] <SandJ> andythenoob: what is the wireless security, and how long is the password?
[10:25] <andythenoob> its wpa & wpa2 personal , pwd length is 9 characters, mixture of letters and numbers
[10:29] <andythenoob> SandJ, odd thing is I'm using my xubuntu desktop currently, its specific to the netbook. I have also created a usb drive of the live cd, can boot on a toshiba laptop and all seems to be ok! Something perhaps in the netbook config or the broadcom card?
[10:30] <Gagarix> Okay, burning the alternate cd now >.>
[10:30]  * Gagarix bashes her head against the wall >.<
[10:43] <szikael> i have 2 comp connected via ssh - is there an option to see what is going on  on terminal 1 on bouth comp, in short ( i need to share terminal)
[10:50] <shpank> szikael: screen -x
[10:51] <szikael> what about Shelr , i just found something
[10:59] <Gagarix> let's see if alternate install cd sees my hard drive -.-;
[11:01] <Gagarix> nope :/
[11:02] <Gagarix> meh, I'm going to bed. Thanks for all the help! *waves*
[11:06] <cypher-neo> How is the hard drive mounted Gagarix?
[11:07] <knome> cypher-neo, he's gone
[11:08] <Beginner> Hi all
[11:09] <Beginner> anyone online?
[11:10] <astraljava> Beginner: Do you have a support question? This is not a general chit-chat channel, so if you have a problem or a question, just go and ask, and whoever's really watching, _may_ reply.
[11:10] <cypher-neo> Beginner, No, no one is online...
[11:10] <cypher-neo> Beginner, lol
[11:10] <cypher-neo> Beginner, Need help?
[11:10] <Beginner> oh
[11:10] <Beginner> yes i have question
[11:11] <astraljava> Ok, let us know. :)
[11:11] <SandJ> Well?  What is your question?
[11:11] <Beginner> How to share Xubuntu folders with win 7
[11:11] <Beginner> I cant make it work
[11:11] <Beginner> I use samba
[11:12] <Beginner> I can c all the shres in win7 but cant login
[11:12] <Beginner> shares
[11:12] <cypher-neo> You're trying to see folders in Win7?
[11:12] <Beginner> No i c them, but i want to open them
[11:13] <Beginner> it says login.. n when i try to ligin it says wrong user or password
[11:13] <astraljava> Beginner: Have you followed the guides available on help.ubuntu.com for that?
[11:13] <Beginner> but its right user n password i use
[11:13] <Beginner> yes i have
[11:14] <astraljava> Beginner: Ok, and you've set the password for a samba user with `sudo smbpasswd -a username`?
[11:14] <cypher-neo> Beginner, Check out this thread... it has all the possible fixes you can use to get samba and Win7 working http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169149
[11:14] <Beginner> oh no i havent.. i add the user in Samba settings
[11:15] <Beginner> Samba client settings
[11:15] <astraljava> Beginner: Client isn't enough, you have to set the password at the server side.
[11:16] <astraljava> Beginner: Please double-check the guide at: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Samba/SambaServerGuide
[11:16] <Beginner> aha oki... Cypher thanx 4 the guide.. ill look at it :)
[11:16] <Beginner> Ty astraljava ill look at it also now
[11:16] <astraljava> Sure no problem.
[11:22] <Beginner> one question.. all the config in Ubuntu is same as in Xubuntu right??? I mean i can use the Ubuntu guides for my Xubuntu?
[11:27] <astraljava> Beginner: Not all. When applications/services have their own config files, then most likely yes. But if they have some system-wide settings (gconf/gsettings etc.) then there can be differences.
[11:27] <astraljava> Beginner: In the samba case, you should be fine.
[11:27] <astraljava> Beginner: You can always double-check here if you are unsure.
[11:28] <astraljava> Beginner: Also, are you aware of our mailing list? Sometimes the channel can be quiet, and help can be achieved better on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>you can go and subscribe to it at http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users
[11:30] <Beginner> Oh.. i didnt know that.. thanks for you help
[11:30] <Beginner> ^^
[12:03] <HerbY_NL> Hello everybody. I'm new at xubuntu (not at linux/ubuntu). When I open my browser on desktop 1 I'd like it to stay there. If however I open a url in thunderbird (on desktop 2) then my browser will move to desktop 2 as well. Is there a way to make it stick to desktop 1. I've never had this problem with ubuntu or mint.
[12:05] <hobgoblin> 2 secs HerbY_NL
[12:06] <SkippersBoss> not only thunderbird :-(
[12:06] <hobgoblin> settings - settings manager - window manager tweaks, Focus tab - switch to windows workspace
[12:06] <hobgoblin> HerbY_NL: ^^ will do it
[12:07] <hobgoblin> SkippersBoss: for anything ;) as far as I can tell
[12:09] <SkippersBoss> ah missed that setting :-)
[12:09] <hobgoblin> so did I for ages ...
[12:09] <SkippersBoss> A bloke can't know everything lol thx
[12:09] <hobgoblin> :)
[12:18] <HerbY_NL> do you need to restart lightdm to make the tweaks work?
[12:18] <HerbY_NL> hobgoblin: do you need to restart lightdm to make the tweaks work?
[12:18] <hobgoblin> nope
[12:19] <HerbY_NL> then I need to change my system language to english to make sure  I change the right settings :-)
[12:19] <hobgoblin> HerbY_NL: hang on - I'll get a screenshot :)
[12:22] <hobgoblin> HerbY_NL: http://imgur.com/a/r5gR3
[12:22] <hobgoblin> icons should be the similar :)
[12:24] <HerbY_NL> hobgoblin: thnx very much. I wasn't looking in the tweaks but regular window manager. It's working now. thnx again.
[12:24] <hobgoblin> welcome
[12:29] <HerbY_NL> One other small anoyance. For some reason the system won't remember that I want google-chrome as my default browser. I even removed Firefox but to no avail.
[12:30] <hobgoblin> well I'd assume that to be in preferred apps - but I've never changed it
[12:31] <holstein> HerbY_NL: try http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/ubuntu/set-the-default-browser-on-ubuntu-from-the-command-line/
[12:31] <holstein> sudo update-alternatives –config x-www-browser
[12:35] <hobgoblin> holstein: fails should be --config
[12:36] <HerbY_NL> holstein: with --config... I get the message /usr/bin/google-chrome, nothing to configure. But when I reboot chrome isn't the default anymore.
[12:36] <holstein> HerbY_NL: that command has worked for me in XFCE and in openbo
[12:37] <holstein> hobgoblin: maybe thats just a copy/paste error on the site
[12:37] <HerbY_NL> I'll reboot now and see what happens.
[12:38] <hobgoblin> possibly - I coped it from the site - fails :)
[12:44] <HerbY_NL> holstein: after reboot I still get "No application selected" in the browser setting (settings - settings manager - default applications)
[12:46] <HerbY_NL> holstein: and your update-alternatives gives the same message again (nothing to configure)
[14:12] <Papa_Smurf> Hi phellas
[14:14] <Papa_Smurf> I want to change my screen resolution to another that does not appear doing xrandr but it is supported, how am i do it? THANKS!!
[14:15] <Papa_Smurf>  I want to change my screen resolution to another that does not appear doing xrand but it is supported, how can i do that? THANKS!!
[14:27] <SkippersBoss> Papa_Smurf: /define/not supported.
[14:27] <SkippersBoss> You can easily add modes to xrandr
[14:57] <donmatas> Hi
[14:57] <donmatas> I am new in Xubuntu
[14:58] <donmatas> it is posible to browse in thunar by tabs?
[14:59] <donmatas> I mean, opening new folders in the same window as a tab not in a new window like I do in nautilus?
[15:02] <knome> donmatas, no
[15:02] <donmatas> really?
[15:02] <donmatas> that is pitty... :(
[15:03] <knome> donmatas, yes, i'm serious. if you want a tabbed file browser, use another one
[15:03] <donmatas> knome: do you think that is a good idea to replace thunar with nautilus?
[15:04] <knome> well, nautilus will "steal" your desktop, unless you run it with --no-desktop (or sth like that, can't exactly remember)
[15:04] <knome> nautilus is much heavier though, so it's up to you if you want to use that much resources for a file manager
[15:08] <donmatas> knome: I have no problems with resources, so I won't have any trouble if I replace thunar?
[15:10] <knome> donmatas, as i said, nautilus will steal the desktop, unless you run it with --no-desktop. other than that, there shouldn't be problems, though i'm not aware if there is some problems with default file manager assigning (especially if desktop is controlled by xfdesktop)
[15:11] <SandJ> I settled on PCManFM which supports tabs.
[15:12] <SandJ> But I use PCManFM because it also supports opening files as root and bookmarks.
[15:59] <xubuntu065> My install has been saying Installing system with an empty progress bar for around 30 minutes now using wubi installer, anyone know what's up with it?
[16:04] <xubuntu065> My install has been saying Installing system with an empty progress bar for around 30 minutes now using wubi installer, anyone know what's up with it?
[16:16] <donmatas> thanks knome. I think that I will let the system as it is.
[16:21] <hobgoblin> xubuntu065: it takes time for it to download and install the packages.
[17:33] <bekor> hi i am using ubuntu 12.04 with xfce and wondering about compz effects and getting the default dock to be gone from under cairo dock
[17:49] <martinphone> in xubuntu, transmission window cannot be seen: I can see the icon in the upper desktop bar, but when I click on it, a couple of = appear around "transmission", its not the first time it happens
[18:18] <astraljava> martinphone: Is this on which release?
[18:36] <martinphone> 12.04 astraljava
[18:39] <astraljava> martinphone: Right. Can you try starting the app from terminal, let's see whether it prints anything to stdout.
[18:42] <martinphone> astraljava, what command? transmission in shell or alt+f2 does nothing
[18:45] <astraljava> martinphone: Try `transmission-gtk`.
[18:46] <martinphone> no error messages, just couldn't connect to: /tmp/keyring-dlGPcW/pkcs11: No such file or directory
[18:47] <martinphone> but the client loads and downloads
[18:50] <astraljava> And you can now see the window?
[18:52] <martinphone> yes
[18:52] <martinphone> im sorry i cannot be more specific
[18:56] <astraljava> It's fine, there are sometimes bugs that are hard to reproduce.
[19:20] <brayshakes> I'm looking for resources to customize the xubuntu distro to contain base packages according to my specifications, e.g the default installation contains chromium rather than firefox and codeblocks editor by default.
[19:25] <astraljava> brayshakes: You could start at: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization/
[19:33] <brayshakes> yep. That is it.
[19:33] <brayshakes> Thank you.
[19:45] <martinphone> xubuntu 12.04 wanting to play simcity 2000, is wine the only way to go?
[19:46] <Unit193> http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=504 Well, could do virtualbox. :P
[19:47] <knome> i'm wondering if that would run under dosbox
[19:47] <knome> what's the non-win95 version? 3.1?
[19:48] <knome> there was a tutorial for installing 3.x in dosbox, and it worked
[19:48] <knome> of course, you need to have the files for that too..
[19:48] <genii-around> You can run entire 3.1 or 3.11 under dosbox, win95 I'm not so sure
[21:15] <ball> Does Xubuntu use gdm?
[21:15] <Unit193> Not in later ones, uses lightdm.
[21:16] <ball> Is there an easy way to tell which is installed?
[21:17] <genii-around> ps aux| grep dm
[21:18] <GridCube> that works
[21:18] <xubuntu903> hello, i recently installed xubuntu and am have multiple problems with the grub boot loader. i can no longer boot windows 7, when i make the attempt i go into grub rescue.
[21:19] <SkippersBoss> xubuntu903: and that is a problem ?? I don't see it
[21:19] <SkippersBoss> Oops sorry
[21:20] <Unit193> Joking aside, run sudo os-prober   from the terminal.
[21:20] <GridCube> or simply sudo update-grub
[21:20] <xubuntu903> lol, it acually woundt be a problem except i also cannot update xubuntu or access my media files, and if i get off the internet xubunto freezes
[21:21] <xubuntu903> i cannot prob as of yesterday
[21:21] <GridCube> xubuntu903, then you have other problems, not xubuntu related, probably a faulty disk
[21:22] <xubuntu903> im updatin grub right now
[21:23] <xubuntu903> Generating grub.cfg ... Found linux image: /boot/vmlinuz-3.4.0-5-generic Found initrd image: /boot/initrd.img-3.4.0-5-generic Found memtest86+ image: /boot/memtest86+.bin Found Windows Recovery Environment (loader) on /dev/sda1 Found Windows 7 (loader) on /dev/sda2 done
[21:23] <xubuntu903> is that normal (win 7 (loader)
[21:24] <SkippersBoss> yes
[21:26] <SkippersBoss> but i am NOT a grub expert
[21:49] <xubuntu350> hello
[21:51] <xubuntu350> i am a xubuntu noob and I just loaded a cd and don't know how to access the files on it. how do i read it and copy the files?
[21:51] <Unit193> You run the installer, how did you make the CD?
[21:52] <xubuntu350> nah. i loaded xubuntu an am running it as my primary OS. I have a cd rom that has school tutorial files on it and want to access the optical drive.
[21:53] <Unit193> Should pull up a window for you, but if not, you should see it on the side of thunar.
[21:53] <xubuntu350> k brb
[21:53] <xubuntu350> thnx
[21:54] <xubuntu350> k opened thunar file mngr all i see is some default folders on the left no optical drive listed
[21:57] <xubuntu350> can assume my optical drive works that's how i loaded xubuntu, just cant see it
[21:57] <GridCube> xubuntu350, how you define "see"
[21:58] <GridCube> there is no way to "see" the drive if its empty
[21:58] <Unit193> You could manually mount...
[21:58] <GridCube> you put a cd on the drive and it should automount
[21:58] <xubuntu350> well i am hopelessly gui-oriented... would like instrux on manually mounting ...through terminal right?
[21:58] <xubuntu350> doesn't automount
[21:59] <Unit193> That's weird that it doesn't.
[21:59] <xubuntu350> so in thunar after loading the cd i dont see any new folders that's what i mean by dont see it
[22:01] <SkippersBoss> unless he 's got a setting to NOT automount
[22:01] <xubuntu350> sorry got a call afk
[22:18] <STATE078940>  Broward County Case Number: 12012028MM10A	 State Reporting Number: 062012MM001339A88820 Court Type: Misdemeanor	 Case Type: Misdemeanor Filing Date: 05/16/2012	 Case Status: Pending Court Location: Central Courthouse	 Judge ID / Name: Pollack - ZD, Gisele Magistrate ID / Name: N/A	   Style: State of Florida Vs Dina, Angelo J  Party Detail Party Type Party Name Sex Race D.O.B. Attorneys / BarID  Denotes Lead Attorney Defendant D
[22:19] <STATE078940> OVERIDE-67114 _ANGELO J.DINA {ACCEPTED}
[22:34] <Myrtti> yes?
[22:48] <c_smith> Hi, I'm trying to get Gmusicbrowser to recognize my media keys (Fn+F11, FN+F12, etc.) and I am having trouble doing so. I can get these keys to work out of the box in Rhythmbox, but I'd like to get this working in Gmusicbrowser and hopefully kick using Rhythmbox for playing music.
[22:48] <c_smith> is there anything I can try?
[22:48] <c_smith> like I said, the keys aren't recognized by gmusicbrowser. but they work.
[22:48] <Sysi> if they work in rhythmbox, you should need just enable right plugin in gmb settings
[22:49] <c_smith> hmmm, let me check that and see if that works.
[22:50] <c_smith> I'm getting the feeling the rhythmbox plugin that is handling these keys is "MediaServer2 D-Bus interface"
[22:50] <c_smith> would that be accurate?
[22:51] <xubuntu044> hi guys im back, im still having no luck running windows from grub
[22:52] <c_smith> it's either that, or MPRIS, which doesn't seem to do a thing in gmusicbrowser.
[22:52] <xubuntu044> bassically i run windows 7  and end up in grub rescue
[22:53] <xubuntu044> all of my files aparently still exist, but they are in a backup drive (VIRTUAL becasuse i reinstalled windows)
[22:53] <c_smith> Sysi, do you know if the MediaServer2 D-Bus Interface has a plugin for Gmusicbrowser? that's what seems to be enabling me to use my media keys with Rhythmbox.
[22:53] <xubuntu044> has anyone experienced this before?
[22:54] <Sysi> c_smith: mpris dbus -something should be available in gmb settings/plugins
[22:54] <c_smith> mpris doesn't seem to do a thing for my issue.
[22:55] <Sysi> you may need to restart gmb, make sure gnome-settings-daemon is running
[22:55] <xubuntu044> are there any simplified bootloaders other than grub anyone would recomend?
[22:55] <Sysi> no
[22:56] <c_smith> I don't know that gnome-settings-daemon is installed.
[22:56] <c_smith> and it is.
[22:56] <Sysi> it makes media keys work in rhythmbox, at least did for me
[22:57] <Sysi> and IIRC did that for GMB too
[22:57] <xubuntu044> i cant even run this distro without being on the internet (it freezes without it) and i cannot update xubuntu
[22:57] <c_smith> Sysi, how would I go about starting the gnome-settings-daemon?
[22:57] <c_smith> same way as with every other daemon?
[22:57] <Sysi> yes, just run it if it isn't running already
[22:58] <xubuntu044> how can i uninstall grub?
[22:58] <Sysi> you should tick "run gnome services on startup" in session settings though
[22:58] <c_smith> alright, and is there a program to check what daemons are running?
[22:58] <c_smith> looks like it's running.
[22:58] <c_smith> task manager ftw.
[23:00] <c_smith> if it helps, the "gnome-mmkeys" says "no signal with name 'MediaPlayerKeyPressed' is exported in object '/org/gnome/SettingsDaemon/MediaKeys'" if that helps
[23:00] <c_smith> might mean something there.
[23:02] <c_smith> does that give any useful info?
[23:05] <c_smith> *slaps self on head* when I was looking in the plugins, I should have been setting the shortcuts.....
[23:06] <c_smith> thanks for trying to help.
[23:07] <xubuntu044> can anyone help me with grub and dual booting?
[23:14] <xubuntu044> anyone familiar with grub rescue?
[23:57] <ball> Is it possible to use xdm with Xubuntu instead of gdm?


[02:26] <Jhon> Hi, is it here where i ask about ubuntu touch?
[08:28] <BlackJohnny> anyone knows how to get xdg_cache_home in ubuntu touch. In a scope this env var is not set :(
[08:28] <BlackJohnny> thanks
[15:15] <Garheade> Howdy all, just getting things up and running on my N4, has anyone tried running alternate browsers on the phone?
[15:17] <Faizan> hi
[15:19] <Faizan> casio gzone ca201l ?
[17:14] <higuita> Hi, my wife needs a new phone and i'm thinking in a bq aquaris e4.5 with ubuntu
[17:16] <higuita> is it usable for day to day phone, sms and mms? and is the camera any good? she likes taking pictures, but most phones work bad in indoor photos
[17:17] <jnxd> higuita: I'm not much satidfied with the camera, my twopenny
[17:17] <higuita> her previous phone was a old symbian phone, so she doesn't know android that help choosing ubuntu
[17:18] <higuita> jnxd: even for outdoor photos?
[17:19] <jnxd> higuita: well, depends on what phone it was, but I guess it'll be better than an old symbian phone
[17:20] <jnxd> I was just upset with if you compare it with other phones with 8 megapixels
[17:20] <jnxd> a casual photographer might not have much to complain about
[17:20] <tathhu> higuita, http://imgur.com/wUtR2KK taken with e4.5
[17:20] <tathhu> dirty laptop, rip
[17:20] <jnxd> I was talking about e5, BTW
[17:21] <tathhu> Yea, it's better
[17:21] <tathhu> Not much but
[17:21] <tathhu> (i've had it too :D)
[17:21] <jnxd> tathhu: wow a collecter, are you?
[17:22] <tathhu> nah :P just stupid
[17:22] <jnxd> how do they both compare?
[17:24] <jnxd> tathhu: also, do you have a Miezu too?
[17:24] <tathhu> E5 was nice with its HD-screen and 16 gigs of storage but I like 4.5 more, IMO 5 inch is too big
[17:24] <tathhu> Nope
[17:24] <tathhu> I had E5, sold it and went back to Jolla.. and here I am :Å
[17:24] <tathhu> *P
[17:25] <tathhu> (should've never sell it, lol)
[17:25] <jnxd> how's jolla?
[17:26] <tathhu> HW sucks, OS is nice x)
[17:26] <jnxd> hmm
[17:27] <tathhu> HW sucks as in I've had too many problems with it
[17:27] <tathhu> Don't know if I could say which is better OS. :D
[17:27] <tathhu> *can
[17:27] <jnxd> higuita: BTW, I'd suggest you go for the e5. It has both a better camera AND a larger memory
[17:28] <tathhu> higuita, where do you live? (get a cover for my 4.5, didn't order same time and shipping is 20€, rrrip)
[17:30] <jnxd> tathhu: is it this one: http://www.snapdeal.com/offers/jolla
[17:30] <jnxd> tathhu: I'd have loved a cover myself, but sadly they didn't ship that to India
[17:31] <tathhu> jnxd, yes and damn
[17:31] <jnxd> tathhu: damn for what?
[17:32] <tathhu> shipping :D
[17:33] <higuita> i thinks that the E5 is too big, jumping from a small nokia to a E5 i thinks is too much for my wife :)
[17:33] <higuita> i'm from Portugal, so i can get bq phones without problems
[17:35] <jnxd> tathhu: didn't get you at the shipping part. If you're trying to ship the cover to india, I guess that's gonna be a nightmare
[17:36] <higuita> i also looked at jolla, it looks nice
[17:36] <jnxd> higuita: are you planning to buy the convergence device too then, when it's available?
[17:36] <higuita> convergence?
[17:37] <jnxd> higuita: tathhu : yeahjolla looks way more refined than Ubuntu, but perhaps a bit more abstract
[17:37] <higuita> ohh, the phone/desktop
[17:37] <jnxd> higuita: yes that one
[17:38] <tathhu> Ubuntu seems to be little
[17:38] <tathhu> umm
[17:38] <tathhu> um
[17:38] <tathhu> stable
[17:38] <higuita> my wife already uses ubuntu that would be a plus... but that one i will have to check how it really works and how useful it really is :)
[17:38] <tathhu> No random UI-crashes :P And I like ambiances but when screen is so bad that you can't use it outside..
[17:39] <tathhu> meh, there's duo-cover in uk-amazon but ofc no shipping to finland :P
[17:40] <jnxd> tathhu: umm, if ubuntu is stable, then I guess jolla has quite a road ahead of it
[17:41] <tathhu> jnxd, i've had less problems with this than with my jolla :(
[17:42] <jnxd> well, I've got no jola to compare, so...
[17:42] <tathhu> :P
[17:42] <jnxd> when did you buy iy, and when was it realeased?
[17:43] <jnxd> it seems slightly older with the specs to price ratio
[17:43] <tathhu> released 11/2013(?) bought feb 2014
[17:47] <jnxd> there's this coming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_WgfGwBZto
[17:48] <jnxd> tathhu: ^
[17:49] <tathhu> yeb
[17:49] <tathhu> isn't that just Jolla phone :P
[17:50] <tathhu> might get another ubuntuphone with better specs... don't know when, lol.
[17:50] <jnxd> tathhu: apparently it'll be a newer version with a different manufacturer, though I don't know if it was the same earlier
[17:51] <jnxd> tathhu: well, you only have meizu for now, though they did put up a "more devices coming soon" banner on their page.
[17:52] <jnxd> tathhu: Jolla's no touch policy seems very much like ubuntu's own. any comments?
[17:52] <tathhu> well  i've had 4.5 for a day :P
[17:52] <tathhu> no touch?
[17:53] <jnxd> *no button
[17:53] <tathhu> ahhh
[17:55] <tathhu> well i like swipes :P
[17:55] <jnxd> tathhu: the camera app seems far more bloated. maybe it'll be more featureful than ubuntu, but I like the latter's simplicity.
[17:55] <jnxd> tathhu: KDE vs GNOME all over again :D
[17:55] <tathhu> what's the difference between rc-proposed/bq-aquaris.en and en-proposed? :o
[17:56] <tathhu> bbbut when you open it there's only one button :P
[17:56] <jnxd> I'd guess en-proposed is for the reference nexus device
[17:56] <jnxd> open what? ubuntu phone or jolla?
[17:56] <tathhu> jollas camera app
[17:56] <tathhu> *auaris.en-proposed
[17:57] <jnxd> tathhu: no clue
[17:59] <jnxd> tathhu: If I have to go through 2-3 screens to switch cameras, I'm going for Ubuntu
[17:59] <jnxd> tathhu: same goes for accessing photos
[18:25] <dragos> hi guys i have a really inportant questipn
[18:25] <dragos> hi guys i have a really inportant question
[18:42] <higuita> dragos: just ask :)
[18:43] <dragos> can someone make ubuntu touch for s3 mini?
[19:21] <tathhu> well, flashed just aquaris.en :o


[07:43] <cpatrick2008> i was wondering when the kpackagekit bug is going to be fixed i saw that kde fixed the problem in version 0.6.3,2
[07:52] <yofel> cpatrick2008: we only triage bugs here not fix them, and that's a PPA  bug
[07:52] <cpatrick2008> oh ok
[11:44] <njin> hello, just my curiosity, wich is the reason why aterisk comment out lines with ; instead #.  Depend on the prog language, devel decision, or what else?. Thanks
[12:14]  * daker is away: Occupé
[12:42] <njin> hello, can someone set importance to bug 665250 as hight. Thanks Fabio
[12:42] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 665250 in ibus (Ubuntu) "cangjie5 (affects: 3) (heat: 18)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/665250
[13:14] <yofel> njin: depends on what the designer of that language wanted as comment marker, maybe he needed the other character for something else
[13:15] <yofel> vim config files use "
[13:27] <penguin42> (possibly the weirdest choice of comment character)
[13:38] <Pici> MSSQL uses '
[13:38] <Pici> Actually I lied. I need more caffeine.
[16:14]  * ElPasmo needs help with bug 204908, upstream bug has a Resolved status but it has not been resolved. How should I proceed? I'd confirmed this issue in Maverick.
[16:14] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 204908 in libgweather (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "World clock applet lacks country Iraq (heat: 3)" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204908
[17:07] <charlie-tca> ElPasmo: is Bagdad now in maverick?
[17:10] <ElPasmo> No charlie-tca
[17:11] <charlie-tca> Then the gnome bug should be re-opened and a comment added to the launchpad bug that it is not fixed in the latest version
[17:16] <ElPasmo> Ok, I'll try it :)
[17:16] <ElPasmo> Thanks, as always, charlie-tca  :)
[17:16] <charlie-tca> no problem
[17:16] <charlie-tca> thanks for helping with bugs.
[17:18] <ElPasmo> don't mention it :)
[17:20] <ElPasmo> charlie-tca, I think I shouldn't modify the status in gnome because: "RESOLVED:  A resolution has been taken, and it is awaiting verification by QA. From here bugs are either re-opened and become REOPENED, are marked VERIFIED, or are closed for good and marked CLOSED. "
[17:21] <ElPasmo> So  maybe change it to new in LP
[17:21] <ElPasmo> And Triaged
[17:22] <ElPasmo> mmm I can't modify the status of the upstream bug in  LP
[17:24] <charlie-tca> You should comment in the gnome bug that the issue is not fixed in version 2.30.3 and the bug should be re-opened because of that
[17:25] <charlie-tca> then comment the launchpad bug also that the issue is not fixed in that version, and confirm it. Then we can mark it triaged
[17:27] <ElPasmo> Ok, I'm on it
[17:33]  * ElPasmo thinks bug 204908 is ready to  be set as Triaged. Can anyone do it for him?
[17:33] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 204908 in libgweather (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "World clock applet lacks country Iraq (heat: 2)" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204908
[17:34] <charlie-tca> Of course I can :-)
[17:34] <charlie-tca> thank you
[17:36]  * ElPasmo thinks bug 559105 is ready to  be set as Triaged. Can anyone do it for him?
[17:36] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 559105 in libgweather (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Temperature in The Hague, The Netherlands is always the same (affects: 7) (dups: 1) (heat: 28)" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/559105
[17:38] <charlie-tca> You don't think it is "just the right place to live", where the weather is the same all the time?
[17:38] <charlie-tca> done
[17:38] <ElPasmo> well, no charlie-tca, it's only 5 degrees celsius, I prefer a warmer weather :P
[17:38] <ElPasmo> thanks a lot :)
[17:39] <charlie-tca> Oh, well, sure, it warmer is important :-)
[17:40] <ElPasmo> hahaha :D
[17:41] <ElPasmo> I have a doubt... I saw in bug 320993 the line: "Nominated for Lucid by Adrien Blanc ". First time I see this and I don't know how to do it and whats the protocol of that kind of "nomination"
[17:41] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 320993 in libgweather (Ubuntu) "clock applet don't have any locations for Canary Islands (affects: 2) (heat: 10)" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/320993
[17:42] <charlie-tca> The developer decides if the bug is an issue and will be fixed in that release it is nominated for
[17:42] <charlie-tca> We just triage it for the release it is reported against
[17:43] <charlie-tca> that is reported against 8.10. Is it still valid in Maverick 10.10?
[17:43] <ElPasmo> No, it's not... I think.
[17:43] <ElPasmo> I could found some stations, but not in the good category, so I asked for more info and set it to incomplete
[17:44] <charlie-tca> great! the nomination was for lucid, meaning the bug should be an issue for Lucid.
[17:45] <ElPasmo> w8, why?
[17:45] <ElPasmo> is not supposed to be fixed in Lucid release?
[17:45] <charlie-tca> right
[17:45] <charlie-tca> that is what the nomination is for
[17:46] <ElPasmo> I see... so I did right? :P
[17:46] <ElPasmo> I'm a bit confused :P
[17:46] <charlie-tca> yes, you did right
[17:46] <charlie-tca> ignore the nomination
[17:46] <ElPasmo> ok, glad to know :)
[17:46] <ElPasmo> thanks!
[18:10] <njin> yofel: thanks
[21:48] <rusivi> Looking for a alternate opinion on wishlist/low priority for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox-ose/+bug/290000
[21:48] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 290000 in virtualbox-ose (Ubuntu) "Upgrading virtualbox while VMs are running crashes them (heat: 4)" [Undecided,New]
[21:49] <rusivi> It's more of a "dummy proofing" of virtualbox that's why I thought wishlist, but...
[21:53] <rusivi> IDK if VMWare/Xen/KVM has live VM host OS/bare metal OS upgrading. I'd have to investigate that one.
[21:53] <rusivi> Cool idea though
[22:07] <rusivi> What is everyone on vacation? :p
[22:08] <crimsun> hmm
[22:08] <charlie-tca> yes
[22:08] <crimsun> I haven't reproduced that symptom between 3,x versions
[22:09] <crimsun> however, 3,x -> 4,x seems reproducible
[22:09] <micahg> makes sense to some extent
[22:09] <crimsun> based on that assessment, I'd say it warrants higher severity than wishlist or low
[22:10] <rusivi> I can upstream it and see what they have to say about it?
[22:13] <crimsun> rusivi: that would be appreciated
[22:13] <rusivi> crimsun: you got it, I'll also shoot Felix an E-Mail see if he likes/dislikes it
[22:29] <BUGabundo> evening mum and ded!
[23:45] <rusivi> Regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox-ose/+bug/290000 instead of turning this bug into a wishlist for live host upgrading while VMs are running, it should just focus on preventing upgrades while VMs are running (upstream -> http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/4132) If a desire to have this functionality exists a new bug should be made w/ a separate upstream enhancement bug.
[23:45] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 290000 in virtualbox-ose (Ubuntu) "Upgrading virtualbox while VMs are running crashes them (heat: 4)" [Undecided,New]
[23:45] <rusivi> I jumped the gun on it a little bit hehe


[01:58] <nhaines> pleia2: surprise!  Virus!
[01:58] <pleia2> nhaines: indeed x_x I wasn't at dinner, I was in the bathroom \o/
[01:59] <pleia2> and I need to get back to bed now, still not 100% (arguably 50%)
[20:03] <pleia2> no response from jono about release party at github yet
[20:03] <pleia2> and I'm starting to get snowed under with work and the openstack summit approaching
[20:03] <pleia2> and book things
[20:38] <nhandler> I ran into him on Thursday and he said he was going to talk to his boss about the party.


[06:50] <mypapit> woof
[06:52] <kdub> bark
[18:48] <james_w> Hi, do you use a second channel when a session is running for people asking questions etc?
[18:49] <db-keen> this channel is empty when sessions are not running
[18:50] <Kirrus> james_w, sometimes, depending on the session
[18:58] <james_w> Kirrus: is there one existing, or is it just set up when needed?
[19:19]  * slangasek scribbles on the chalkboard
[19:44] <mok0> slangasek: I brought an apple for you
[19:44] <slangasek> please tell me you aren't talking about an airbook
[19:44] <mok0> :-)
[20:02] <sistpoty> hi everyone
[20:02] <mok0> hi
[20:02] <sistpoty> hehe, finished the text in the last minute :)
[20:03]  * slangasek sits at attention
[20:03] <mok0> Am I the only student?
[20:03] <sistpoty> anyone else here for the library packaging session?
[20:03] <james_w> I am
[20:04]  * warp10 raises an hand :)
[20:04] <mok0> Ah, more students than teachers...
[20:04]  * db-keen lurks in a seat at the back of the room
[20:04] <sistpoty> maybe we'll wait five more minutes before we start?
[20:04] <warp10> okay for me
[20:04] <sistpoty> or just start right away?
[20:05] <slangasek> I think it would be more respectful of the time of those who are here to go ahead and start, and if there are latecomers we can recap for them at the end?
[20:05] <slangasek> (or point them at a log and invite questions)
[20:06] <mok0> Is there some text we need to look at?
[20:06] <james_w> I agree.
[20:06] <sistpoty> ok, that's fine, so let's get started :)
[20:06] <sistpoty> so a big welcome to everyone for joining the motu school session about library packaging
[20:06] <sistpoty> the session will be split in two parts:
[20:07] <sistpoty> in the first part, we'll dive deeply into the background of shared objects, and how to find out information about theses
[20:07] <sistpoty> -s
[20:07] <sistpoty> and in the second part, we'll go through creating a library package by example
[20:07] <sistpoty> so let's start with part 1
[20:07] <sistpoty> First off, shared objects are useful for two different purposes
[20:08] <sistpoty> 1) as a plugin mechanism in conjunction with dlopen
[20:08] <sistpoty> 2) for dynamic libraries, to share code between different projects
[20:08] <sistpoty> as this is about library packaging, we'll be only looking at 2) in this session
[20:09] <sistpoty> First off, (ELF) shared objects are a collection of symbols in different sections together with some meta-information
[20:09] <sistpoty> a symbol denotes a named entity in C (e.g. a function or a variable)
[20:09] <sistpoty> the section will give us some detail about the symbol
[20:10] <sistpoty> btw.: if you have questions, just ask ;)
[20:10] <sistpoty> let's take a look at an example: http://www.potyra.de/library_packaging/example.c
[20:10] <sistpoty> so please everyone download the file
[20:11] <sistpoty> everyone got it?
[20:11] <warp10> yep!
[20:11] <mok0> +
[20:11] <sistpoty> great, so let's compile the file:
[20:11] <sistpoty> gcc -c example.c -o example.o
[20:12] <sistpoty> so far, the .o is just a normal object, not a shared object yet... however we can do some stuff with it already
[20:12] <sistpoty> now run
[20:12] <sistpoty> nm example.o
[20:12] <sistpoty> the output are the different symbols defined in example.c
[20:14] <mok0> what are the letters U, T, t...
[20:14] <sistpoty> for example in line 3, the variable "static_global" is results as symbol "0000000000000000 d static_global"
[20:14] <sistpoty> mok0: will talk about that in a second ;)
[20:14] <sistpoty> when you compare the output of nm, together with the variables of example.c, does anyone see anything odd?
[20:15] <sistpoty> I'll give you a hint: look at the beginning of the function local_function
[20:16] <sistpoty> now, anyone?
[20:16] <warp10> why local_var isn't listed?
[20:16] <sistpoty> warp10: excellent
[20:16] <mok0> it's allocated on the call stack
[20:17] <geser> why does static_local_var has a number in the nm output (here: static_local_var.2268)?
[20:17] <sistpoty> excactly... some symbols in C (like local_var) don't need to be stored anywhere, because these are located in the stack
[20:18] <sistpoty> ok, and some variables (like static_local_var) won't result in the same symbols as they are named. This is because the variable is not visible anywhere but in the function, and you can name a variable like this anywhere else
[20:18] <slangasek> geser: that's a very good question whose answer I don't remember :)
[20:18] <sistpoty> and you cannot have two symbols with the same name of course
[20:18] <mok0> geser: could that number be the offset?
[20:19] <sistpoty> any more questions or shall we go to the funny letters?
[20:19] <mok0> ^^
[20:19] <slangasek> mok0: it's not the offset
[20:19] <warp10> What's the order with which symbols are listed by nm?
[20:19] <sistpoty> warp10: good question: slangasek?
[20:20] <slangasek> plain alphabetical
[20:20] <siretart> slangasek: in order to avoid name clashes between different static local variables with the same name in different functions?
[20:20] <sistpoty> mok0: I guess it's just a counted number gcc will assign, but I may err on this side
[20:20] <mok0> sistpoty: my number is != gesers
[20:20] <geser> mok0: it could be the line number after including all headers. after changeing the line with the previous one the number is now 2267
[20:21] <slangasek> siretart: probably, yes
[20:21] <sistpoty> mok0: he, ah
[20:21] <mok0>  static_local_var.1781
[20:21] <slangasek> siretart, geser: suffice to say, it goes away once you've linked the object into a shared library, so it ends up not being very relevant
[20:22] <sistpoty> ok, then now let's take a look at the letters.
[20:22] <sistpoty> First off, some are lower case and some are upper case.
[20:22] <slangasek> geser: it isn't the line number; if I run the source through gcc -E, I get line 757
[20:22] <geser> ok
[20:22] <sistpoty> The lower case letters denominate local symbols. Noone except this very object file can see these kind of symbols
[20:23] <mok0> lower case == local, Upper case == global
[20:23] <sistpoty> whereas the upper case letters mean that the symbol is global, and other object files are global... exactly.
[20:23] <sistpoty> the letter denote the type of the symbol:
[20:23] <sistpoty> t -> text section (may be mapped readonly), executable
[20:23] <sistpoty> d -> initialized data (statics, initialized globals)
[20:23] <sistpoty> (as in variables)
[20:24] <sistpoty> c -> uninitialized data (uninitialized global variables)
[20:24] <sistpoty> r -> read only data (const variables), not necessarily read only though.
[20:24] <slangasek> (btw, if you later don't remember what these letters map to, they're listed in man nm)
[20:24] <sistpoty> and then there's an interesting one: u
[20:24] <sistpoty> this means that the symbol is not defined in the object, but somewhere else
[20:25] <sistpoty> (undefined)
[20:25] <slangasek> to clarify, that means the object *refers* to the symbol but does not define it
[20:25] <sistpoty> so "stderr" is listed there, as it comes somewhere from the c library, as well as fprintf
[20:26] <sistpoty> ok, now let's make a shared object from this file:
[20:26] <sistpoty> gcc -Wl,-z,defs -Wl,-soname,libexample.so.1 -fPIC -shared example.c -o libexample.so
[20:27] <sistpoty> everyone got it?
[20:27] <warp10> y
[20:27] <mok0> +
[20:27] <sistpoty> ok, now let's look again at it with nm
[20:28] <warp10> wow...
[20:29] <sistpoty> (you can ignore anything with an underscore, that's internal stuff)
[20:29] <bddebian> nm is like objdump?
[20:29] <slangasek> yes
[20:29] <bddebian> ok
[20:29] <slangasek> I might suggest at this point also running 'nm -D libexample.so', for comparison
[20:29] <sistpoty> erm... sorry, we need to do another thing I forgot... let's first strip off the debugging symbols
[20:30] <sistpoty> strip libexample.so
[20:30] <slangasek> ... or that :)
[20:30] <geser> nm: libexample.so: no symbols
[20:30] <mok0> hehe
[20:31] <mok0> that's easy :-)
[20:31] <sistpoty> ok, to look at the dynamic symbols, you'll now want nm -D as slangasek suggested
[20:32] <slangasek> right - since we strip binaries by default, 'nm foo.so' in the wild is going to give you empty output
[20:32] <geser> the local symbols aren't listed anymore?
[20:32] <sistpoty> what you'll see is that there are now (apart from some internals) only global symbols left. i.e. everything not defined as "static"
[20:32] <sistpoty> exactly
[20:33] <sistpoty> (side note: the static modifier in c means that the resulting symbol will be a local symbol)
[20:34] <sistpoty> any questions so far? then let's try some other tools on the shared object
[20:34] <mok0> sistpoty: well, global to the functions in that file
[20:34] <sistpoty> mok0: yes, a local global *g*
[20:34] <bddebian> hrh
[20:34] <slangasek> geser: since they're local, they're by definition not accessible to other things linking to this code; so aside from debugging symbols, which we've used 'strip' to wipe out, there's no reason to take up space by keeping around names for these variables
[20:35] <sistpoty> ok, now let's take a look at the meta-information:
[20:35] <sistpoty> objdump -x libexample.so
[20:36] <sistpoty> this will give lots of info. The most interesting stuff can be found with objdump -p libexample.so as well
[20:37] <bddebian> Who uses anything more than |grep SONAME? ;-)
[20:37] <sistpoty> one thing that's in there is the SONAME, we'll take a look at it later
[20:37]  * slangasek raises his hand
[20:37] <sistpoty> the other thing in there is the NEEDED entry (or entries)
[20:38] <sistpoty> the SONAME denotes the ABI-Verison of the shared object...
[20:38] <sistpoty> everything with the same SONAME can be considered to be compatible
[20:39] <geser> if upstream doesn't make a mistake
[20:39] <sistpoty> the NEEDED entries denote what libraries this shared object needs. These refer to the SONAME of other libraries
[20:39] <bddebian> geser: Never happens ;)
[20:39] <slangasek> everything with the same SONAME *will be* considered compatible by ld.so, so it darn well better *be* compatible :)
[20:39] <sistpoty> geser: we'll just see what happens then ;)
[20:40] <sistpoty> I guess everyone knows ldd, let's try that one
[20:40] <sistpoty> ldd libexample.so
[20:40]  * bddebian doesn't know anything
[20:41] <nxvl_work> i'm late again :(
[20:41] <sistpoty> ldd will resolve any shared libraries a binary or a shared object needs
[20:42] <geser> is linux-vdso.so.1 provided by the kernel?
[20:42] <sistpoty> so, what's the difference between the NEEDED entries and the output of ldd apart from the pathname?
[20:42] <slangasek> geser: yes, linux-vdso is a bit of Magic
[20:43] <warp10> ldd output shows three entries, not just one
[20:43] <geser> ldd resolves them recursively
[20:43]  * bddebian thinks geser is too smart for this class :)
[20:43] <sistpoty> exactly what geser said :)
[20:43] <geser> bddebian: :P
[20:43] <sistpoty> so you should keep these in mind when dealing with shared objects, as you might want to look at the *direct* dependencies as well
[20:44] <james_w> ldd resolves recursively?
[20:44] <sistpoty> james_w: yes
[20:44] <slangasek> yes; for a real world-example, have a look at ldd /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0, vs. objdump -p /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0 | grep NEEDED
[20:45] <slangasek> so we've looked at the output of nm -D on this object, but nm -D has one weakness as a tool which is not at all obvious if you don't already know what's missing
[20:46] <slangasek> have a look at the output of nm -D libexample.so again
[20:46] <slangasek> now, compare it to the output of readelf -s libexample.so
[20:46] <slangasek> who can spot the difference in the names?
[20:47] <bddebian> The stuff from @@glibc?
[20:47] <geser> you mean the versioned symbols?
[20:47] <slangasek> yep - nm -D doesn't show symbol versions
[20:47] <mok0> cool
[20:48] <slangasek> so if you want to get at those, you'll want to use objdump -T or readelf -s
[20:48] <geser> what does the "(2)" in "6:<PHONE_NUMBER>000000   144 FUNC    GLOBAL DEFAULT  UND<EMAIL_ADDRESS>(2)" mean?
[20:48] <slangasek> symbol versions are sometimes important, so you'll want to keep these tools in mind -- sometimes, an app/lib will not know the symbol version it's supposed to use, and that indicates a bug!
[20:49] <slangasek> geser: I'm not sure, sorry
[20:50] <slangasek> I'd probably have to look at the readelf source to figure that out, the fields aren't all well-explained in the documentation
[20:50] <mok0> we can write a dependency resolver from these tools
[20:50] <slangasek> mok0: indeed, dpkg-shlibdeps uses these tools
[20:51] <sistpoty> ok, any more questions so far?
[20:51] <sistpoty> When writing a program, that uses a library, we want to make sure that the API of that library is stable.
[20:52] <sistpoty> If we want to distribute this program, we also want a stable ABI.
[20:52] <sistpoty> stable API means that my program compiles against the library and a newer version of it.
[20:52] <sistpoty> stable ABI means that the symbols stay the same
[20:53] <mok0> what if there are new symbols?
[20:53] <sistpoty> mok0: of course... I just wanted to correct myself
[20:53] <sistpoty> stable ABI means that there won't get any symbols removed, and their meaning is still the same
[20:54] <james_w> sistpoty: if you have a stable API it means if you compiled against it you will be able to link against it?
[20:54] <sistpoty> james_w: no, that would be stable ABI
[20:54] <sistpoty> james_w: it means you can compile against it again
[20:54] <geser> james_w: you can also link against an unstable API/ABI but you need to rebuild everytime the API/ABI changes
[20:54] <sistpoty> (w.o. changing your code)
[20:54] <james_w> sistpoty: sorry, that's what I meant.
[20:55] <mok0> If you write code that corrects a bug, but the interface remains the same?
[20:55] <sistpoty> mok0: then the ABI and API is stable
[20:56] <sistpoty> (most likely)
[20:56] <mok0> ... but I would still want that programs exclusively use the fixed version
[20:56] <sistpoty> but let's first have some fun... as some newby upstream started to produce a library...
[20:56] <geser> mok0: if I'm correct you can change the implementation as long as function name, arguments and return type stay the same
[20:57] <sistpoty> mok0: you can do this (as upstream) only, if the library have some version string or date encoded
[20:57] <mok0> ok
[20:57] <sistpoty> mok0: or by advetising it on your homepage *g*
[20:57] <mok0> you can bump the minor version number
[20:58] <sistpoty> for the library: yes (I'll come to this part yet)
[20:58] <chiptoxic> how do you tell if a library has a stable API or ABI is it just by watching the version numbers of that library?
[20:58] <sistpoty> chiptoxic: I'd like to postpone this question, as I first want to show you an example
[20:59] <chiptoxic> ok
[20:59] <sistpoty> so please everyone get <http://www.potyra.de/library_packaging/libmyhello-1.0.1.tar.gz>
[20:59] <sistpoty> if you've got it, extract it and compile it with
[20:59] <sistpoty> make
[21:00] <sistpoty> then install the result (as root) with
[21:00] <sistpoty> make install
[21:00] <sistpoty> (no worries, it will only copy files to the /usr/local/ namespace, and make uninstall removes it again)
[21:01] <sistpoty> everyone got so far? (then me types the commands as well)
[21:02] <mok0>  make PREFIX=. install
[21:02] <mok0> does it locally
[21:03] <sistpoty> then you might have trouble upgrading the library
[21:04] <sistpoty> (or building an application against it, which we'll do as soon as everyone is finished)
[21:04]  * warp10 is done
[21:04] <sistpoty> ok, next step: of course we want s.th. that uses the library, so get <http://www.potyra.de/library_packaging/hello_prog-1.0.tar.gz>
[21:05] <sistpoty> extract that somewhere else and also build the binary with "make"
[21:06] <sistpoty> if you've done that, you should have a cool binary hello_prog, which will print hello. you can even tell it how often it should print hello with the first argument
[21:06] <sistpoty> ./hello_prog 10
[21:07] <sistpoty> everyone got so far yet?
[21:07] <mok0> error while loading shared libraries: libmyhello.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[21:07] <frigaut> same here
[21:07] <geser> mok0: sudo ldconfig
[21:07] <warp10> and here too :)
[21:07] <slangasek> heh, did any of the people having this problem install to /usr/local?
[21:08] <mok0> geser: just doing what the teachers tell me .-)
[21:08] <slangasek> or did you all install to a different prefix?
[21:08] <sistpoty> hehe
[21:08] <frigaut> works now after ldconfig
[21:08] <sistpoty> of course I forgot to mention ldconfig
[21:08] <chiptoxic> mine works and i just did what you said and ran ldconfig
[21:08] <james_w> slangasek: /usr/local for me
[21:08] <slangasek> ah, ok
[21:08] <sistpoty> (still got it installed from testing *g*)
[21:09] <mok0> Yay, it says hello to me 10 times
[21:09] <kdub> you have to have /usr/local in your /etc/ld.so.conf of course
[21:09] <geser> sistpoty: "eventually run ldconfig now."
[21:09] <slangasek> kdub: in /etc/ld.so.conf.d/libc.conf actually... :)
[21:09] <sistpoty> geser: hehe, what a nice upstream *g*
[21:10] <geser> yep
[21:10] <sistpoty> now if it prints hello for everyone, let's remove the *library* again with
[21:10] <sistpoty> make uninstall (run as root)
[21:11] <sistpoty> now try again to run the hello_prog.
[21:12] <sistpoty> any results yet?
[21:12] <geser> ./hello_prog: error while loading shared libraries: libmyhello.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[21:12] <mok0> boom
[21:13] <sistpoty> great, so (I guess what you expected) it won't work w.o. the library
[21:13] <sistpoty> now upstream has released a new version of the library... I guess you all want hot new stuff?
[21:13] <sistpoty> then get it at http://www.potyra.de/library_packaging/libmyhello-1.0.2.tar.gz
[21:13] <sistpoty> we'll be compiling it again:
[21:13] <sistpoty> make
[21:14] <sistpoty> and install it again (run as root)
[21:14] <sistpoty> make install
[21:14] <mok0> If you install the library again, it works once more :-)
[21:14] <sistpoty> hehe
[21:14] <warp10> I don't think so :)
[21:15] <geser> ./hello_prog: symbol lookup error: ./hello_prog: undefined symbol: print_hello
[21:15] <sistpoty> (oh, if you haven't removed installed the new library, you could also try ldd ./hello_prog)
[21:16] <sistpoty> so what happened?
[21:16] <sistpoty> now let's try to make use of the knowledge we gathered so far
[21:16] <mok0> the application attempts to use the new library
[21:17] <sistpoty> mok0: exactly
[21:17] <sistpoty> let's take a look at the symbols of both shared objects (old library vs. new library)
[21:17] <mok0> => ABI has changed
[21:17] <sistpoty> excellent!
[21:18] <sistpoty> in the old library, we had the function: T print_hello
[21:18] <sistpoty> which upstream obviously renamed to just: T hello
[21:19] <sistpoty> when you start the program, one of the first steps is that undefined symbols will get resolved
[21:19]  * bddebian curses upstream
[21:19] <sistpoty> hehe
[21:20] <slangasek> yeah, I would think twice about packaging any libraries from this upstream ;)
[21:20] <sistpoty> which is done recursively for each shared object that is used
[21:20]  * sistpoty removes copyright notices *g*
[21:20] <mok0> This is why it is wrong to use the program version number for library versions
[21:20] <bddebian> heh
[21:20] <mok0> which a lot of upstream programmers don't understand
[21:21] <sistpoty> when the symbol lookup can't resolve one symbol.. well you just saw what happens.
[21:21] <sistpoty> ok, what we've seen now is an incompatibility on symbol level.
[21:22] <sistpoty> I hope with the tools you've learned so far, you can easily track those down
[21:22] <sistpoty> -> any removed symbol in a shared library is a problem, *if* the SONAME stays the same
[21:23] <mok0> so let's change it
[21:24] <sistpoty> mok0: feel free to change it, I guess you can figure this in the Makefile
[21:24] <mok0> I set major to 2
[21:25] <albert23> Wouldn't this be an API change, since print_hello is not defined anymore in hello.h?
[21:25] <albert23> I wouldn't expect this to compile anymore?
[21:25] <sistpoty> albert23: exactly: this is an API change as well
[21:26] <sistpoty> ok, but let's get back to the ABI...
[21:27] <sistpoty> symbols however cannot represent the signature of functions (i.e. number of parameters, type of parameters)
[21:27] <sistpoty> this is part of the ABI as well
[21:27] <sistpoty> if we want to look if this changed, we'll need to dig a little bit deeper
[21:27] <mok0> Now the program works again, because it finds the first version of the library
[21:27] <mok0> (I changed MAJOR to 2)
[21:28] <sistpoty> mok0: hehe, so you didn't unstall the old library?
[21:28] <chiptoxic> im not a programmer but is there a way you could put an alias in the code say print_hello is really hello so you dont break the api? or would that just be messy
[21:28] <mok0> sistpoty: I still have 1.0.1 but I removed 1.0.2
[21:28] <mok0> The new one is 2.0.1
[21:29] <sistpoty> chiptoxic: you could for example abuse the preprocessor: "define print_hello hello"
[21:29] <mok0> My experiment shows you can have several versions of the library present
[21:29] <sistpoty> er... #define print_hello hello
[21:29] <chiptoxic> ah cool, thanks
[21:29] <sistpoty> ok, back to the topic...
[21:30] <sistpoty> you can look at the debug information with gdb, so let's run
[21:30] <sistpoty> gdb libmyhello.so
[21:30] <slangasek> mok0: exactly, and this is a key reason why we always use the full soname for the names of our library packages
[21:30] <geser> mok0: and now try the same on windows :)
[21:30] <sistpoty> inside gdb, you can look at the signatures of functions with
[21:30] <sistpoty> info functions
[21:31] <mok0> slangasek: you mean the major soname ?
[21:31] <slangasek> mok0: the "soname" is the value returned by objdump -p $lib | grep SONAME
[21:31] <mok0> slangasek: ok
[21:31] <slangasek> and set (hopefully) using the -Wl,-soname option at build time
[21:32] <sistpoty> mok0: the Makefile just puts $(MAJOR) and a name in the soname, but the real soname is in SONAME
[21:32] <slangasek> lintian knows the standard way to map sonames to package names, and warns you if your package is named differently.  but of course, we have to take care that upstream is handling their ABI right in the first place!
[21:32] <sistpoty> inside gdb, you can also display the types of variables with
[21:32] <sistpoty> info variables
[21:33] <sistpoty> (which is uninteresting for libmyhello.so though, since it doesn't define a global variable by itself)
[21:33] <sistpoty> everyone looked at the output of "info functions"?
[21:34] <mok0> just one: hello(void)
[21:34] <sistpoty> you should see s.th. like "void hello(void);" or "void print_hello(void);" there (depending which version you chose)
[21:34] <sistpoty> yes, so upstream is lazy as well *g*
[21:35]  * bddebian files upstream bug
[21:35] <sistpoty> now let's strip the shared object (which wasn't done during the build process):
[21:35] <sistpoty> strip libmyhello.so
[21:35] <sistpoty> (outside gdb again)
[21:36] <sistpoty> and then call gdb libmyhello.so again and look at the functions again
[21:36] <mok0> :-(
[21:36] <sistpoty> as you can see, these are all gone.
[21:36] <geser> mok0: install the -dbgsym package of it :)
[21:37] <mok0> heh
[21:37] <sistpoty> that's because these were part of the debug symbols, which have been stripped away
[21:37] <sistpoty> ok, so if we want to find out about the ABI-part of the signatures, it's a little bit tougher, but still doable
[21:39] <sistpoty> if a signature is changed (number of arguments and type of a function), it can lead to different results. Most probably it will segfault, since the library and the application no longer agree on what data they exchange)
[21:39] <sistpoty> an exception to this rule is C++
[21:40] <sistpoty> in C++ the signature is encoded in the name of a symbol
[21:40] <sistpoty> so if you change an argument, add an argument or remove one, you get a different symbol name
[21:41] <sistpoty> (side note: you can use nm -C to demangle these names back to a human readable signature)
[21:41] <slangasek> or c++filt
[21:41] <sistpoty> any questions so far?
[21:42] <sistpoty> chiptoxic: did that answer your question from some time ago?
[21:42] <slangasek> other side note, checking for ABI changes of this kind by hand is hard and tedious; there is a tool in universe that tries to automate this checking, called icheck
[21:42] <chiptoxic> yea, thanks
[21:42] <mok0> slangasek: icheck, what package?
[21:43] <sistpoty> slangasek: ah, nice :)
[21:43] <sistpoty> mok0: icheck
[21:43] <slangasek> if you're maintaining a library and want to be careful because your upstream isn't, icheck will let you generate a "manifest" from the old and new -dev packages, and compare them to see if the signatures have changed
[21:43]  * chiptoxic cant believe how much im learning :)
[21:43] <james_w> slangasek: how does that compare to check-symbols from the ubuntu-dev-tools package?
[21:43]  * mok0 install icheck
[21:43] <slangasek> james_w: icheck examines headers, not symbols
[21:44] <slangasek> james_w: so it's specifically for the case where you're trying to detect the kinds of ABI changes that /don't/ show up in the symbol table
[21:44]  * bddebian can't keep up being at work :'-(
[21:45] <slangasek> (doh, check-symbols uses nm -D?  Baaad, what did we learn was the weakness of nm -D? :-)
[21:45] <sistpoty> slangasek: since you mentioned ABI changes not showing up in the symbol table, want to say a few words to these?
[21:46] <slangasek> probably, let me see where I put those words
[21:47] <slangasek> right - does everyone here understand why changing the arguments or return type of a function is an ABI change?
[21:47] <mok0> yes
[21:47] <slangasek> (if everyone knows, there's no sense in me spending time explaining it - but if you don't know, please speak up :)
[21:48] <warp10> y
[21:48] <mok0> Well renaming a global variable would show up
[21:49] <slangasek> two people know who care, everyone else is asleep or doesn't want to talk to me ;)
[21:49] <slangasek> sistpoty: back to you
[21:49] <slangasek> :)
[21:49] <mok0> I just tried icheck on the 2 library versions,
[21:50] <mok0> but I couldn't get it to work
[21:50] <sistpoty> ok
[21:50] <mok0> ... "Failed to parse libmyhello.so
[21:50] <sistpoty> mok0: haven't used it myself yet
[21:51] <mok0> sistpoty: :-)
[21:51] <sistpoty> what we should have learned so far is that if the ABI breaks, you'll need to bump the SONAME
[21:51] <slangasek> mok0: you point it at the headers, not at the library
[21:51] <mok0> Ah!
[21:51] <sistpoty> however there is yet another case, we didn't consider
[21:51] <slangasek> that's the whole point - the library doesn't have the info you need about the function sigs :)
[21:52] <sistpoty> upstream might put additional functionality in the library
[21:52] <sistpoty> and keep the ABI downwards compatible
[21:53] <sistpoty> in that case, the SONAME would (and should) stay the same, because no program ceases to work with the newer library
[21:53] <sistpoty> however this has one caveat: people who use this library might make use of the new features
[21:53] <mok0> ... but new programs that use the new functionality?
[21:54] <sistpoty> right, so these programs wouldn't work with the old library but only with the new one (even though the SONAME is the same)
[21:54] <sistpoty> for this, there the SONAME is not sufficient alone.
[21:55] <sistpoty> slangasek: told me that historically the minor version was incremented for this
[21:55] <sistpoty> -:
[21:55]  * mok0 also read that
[21:55] <sistpoty> but that won't work if you copy binaries from one system to another (as you don't know about the libraries there)
[21:56] <sistpoty> ok, this pretty much was part 1 -- shared objects
[21:56] <sistpoty> any questions so far?
[21:57] <mok0> Well, what is the answer to the last problem?
[21:57] <sistpoty> mok0: we'll see that in part 2 :)
[21:57] <mok0> Arrghh
[21:57] <warp10> :)
[21:57] <mok0> It stops at the most exiting part
[21:58] <mok0> typical of these mini-series :-)
[21:58] <sistpoty> hehe
[21:58] <warp10> :D
[21:58] <sistpoty> actually I wanted to continue with part 2 now, unless there are questions of course
[21:59] <sistpoty> anyone?
[21:59]  * warp10 has no questions
[21:59] <sistpoty> ok, now for part 2 the plan was to let you package libmyhello on a walkthrough basis
[21:59] <sistpoty> however the session went much longer than I expected
[22:00] <mok0> 2 hours
[22:00] <sistpoty> would you prefer the walkthrough or shall we just look at (one possible) result?
[22:00] <mok0> I'm ok with the latter
[22:00] <james_w> sistpoty: would you like to move that part to another session?
[22:00] <warp10> any choice is fine for me
[22:00]  * albert23 would like the walkthrough
[22:00] <sistpoty> that would be an option as well
[22:01] <sistpoty> what does everyone else think?
[22:01] <james_w> sistpoty: I think a walkthrough would be really valuable, but I'm sure you are tired.
[22:02] <warp10> maybe moving to another session could give the opportunity to go in deeper details than going on now.
[22:02] <sistpoty> james_w: heh, a little bit, but tomorrow is friday so I don't mind going to work tired *that* much *g*
[22:02] <mok0> +1
[22:03] <sistpoty> ok, then let's move this to another session... maybe tomorrow?
[22:03] <mok0> Works for me
[22:03] <sistpoty> warp10: what about you?
[22:03] <albert23> that's fine for me
[22:03] <slangasek> mok0: btw, a follow-up comment regarding icheck: there are ways that the necessary information can be retained in the library in the form of debugging symbols, but in the common case we've already discarded these symbols from the old version of the lib at build time, long before we ever want to start running icheck
[22:03] <warp10> tomorrow... what time?
[22:04] <sistpoty> I'd say same time, 20.00 UTC?
[22:04] <warp10> should be fine. +1
[22:04] <albert23> perfect
[22:05] <mok0> slangasek: I didn't assume icheck had a parser for C code, parsing the symbol tables seems simpler, but if the info ain't there....
[22:05] <sistpoty> james_w: alright for you as well?
[22:05] <james_w> sistpoty: that's fine with me.
[22:05] <mok0> slangasek: but it did discover the API/ABI change
[22:06] <sistpoty> ok, then let's meet here again tomorrow at 20.00 UTC
[22:06] <warp10> cool :)
[22:06] <chiptoxic> cool ill be back tomorrow this was great think ill go read some of the past classrooms listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
[22:06] <albert23> great, thanks sistpoty!
[22:06] <sistpoty> you're welcome albert23
[22:07] <mok0> great class, thanks!
[22:07]  * warp10 has learned a *lot* of things tonight
[22:07] <james_w> sistpoty, slangasek: thanks a lot.
[22:07] <geser> thanks sistpoty and slangasek
[22:07] <sistpoty> thanks for coming :)
[22:07] <bddebian> Yeah, w00t sistpoty and slangasek
[22:07] <bddebian> And geser the teachers pet..


[17:15] <juzzy__> hey, ive updated to 11.04 - how may I place a my old weather widget dock thing onto the upper bar again??
[18:39] <IdleOne> juzzy_: there is an indicator-weather you can install not sure if it is in a PPA or in the repositories
[18:40] <IdleOne> yeah PPA. http://ppa.launchpad.net/weather-indicator-team/ppa/ubuntu/
[21:59] <juzzy_> HELP! all my file folder try to open with gedit text editor!
[22:03] <MrChrisDruif> juzzy_: I saw the same question in #ubuntu-beginners and I believed your being helped there. If not, just tell us. We're not really a support channel for issues with desktops and what not. Were more of an channel to keep a check on the different teams and letting them work more together. You'll be more likely to be helped in #ubuntu-beginners or in (the madhouse) #ubuntu :)
[22:04] <juzzy_> cheers
[22:07] <MrChrisDruif> :D