[12:29] <dieman> holy crap, samsung released amd64 binaries for their printer
[12:31] <Chipzz> nice :)
[12:32] <jdub> dieman: their printer is amd64? ;-)
[12:48] <wasabi_> That was too easy.
[12:54] <JanC> dieman: most samsung printers work OOTB on Ubuntu?
[12:55] <JanC> I guess you mean their proprietary GUI installer ?  ;-)
[01:47] <floam> BenC: is there any obvious reason an initrd might fail to be created with no message upon install of the 2.6.17 kernel-image packages?
[01:48] <floam> update-initramfs -c -k 2.6.17-4-k7 seems to make one (havn't checked to see if it works yet)
[02:05] <infinity> floam: Because, afaict, the postinst for the -4- kernel just plain doesn't create an initramfs at all.
[02:05] <jdub> infinity: massive!
[02:08] <jsgotangco> hey jdub
[02:08] <jdub> yo jsgotangco
[02:11] <tseng> hi jsgotangco
[02:12] <jsgotangco> hey tseng how's it going?
[02:12] <tseng> fine, you?
[02:12] <jsgotangco> pretty good starting the week though *groan*
[02:15] <tseng> does anyone know the current method of getting a dapper-updates approved?
[02:16] <tseng> mail mdz, file bug assigned to foo, ...?
[02:16] <Riddell> tseng: send diff to mdz and kamion.  upload when approved
[02:16] <tseng> Riddell: cheers.
[02:21] <BenC> floam, infinity: Yeah, the kernel-package used to create the -4 kernel was screwed
[02:59] <labuser> I have a fix for a buggy package in ubuntu, where do I send it to? (It's a one-line diff)
[02:59] <Chipzz> labuser: I guess file a bug in launchpad ?
[03:00] <Chipzz> you can mark your attachment as being a patch I think
[03:00] <labuser> it's been on launchpad for 2 months but the package is still broken
[03:01] <labuser> someone else filed it here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/mldonkey/+bug/42632
[03:01] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 42632 in mldonkey "startup script is broken" [Medium,Confirmed]
[03:02] <labuser> it's not a minor thing either... attempting installation of the package breaks apt alltogether
[03:03] <labuser> http://rafb.net/paste/results/sonrqK93.html
[03:03] <labuser> I pasted the fix there... maybe someone can commit it
[03:03] <Fujitsu> Which package? mldonkey-gui
[03:04] <labuser> mldonkey-server
[03:04] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[03:04] <Fujitsu> OK.
[03:04] <Fujitsu> Works fine for me...
[03:04] <Fujitsu> How does it break it?
[03:06] <Fujitsu> It doesn't actually install the mldonkey binary... But it doesn't break.
[03:06] <labuser> Installation of any other package fails. I forgot the exact message
[03:07] <labuser> I did an apt-get source and applied the fix, then did dpkg -i with that, and everything was ok
[03:07] <JanC> sounds like a failed install script?
[03:07] <labuser> yes that's right
[03:07] <Fujitsu> Works fine for me, still.
[03:07] <labuser> Fujitsu, the installation ?
[03:08] <Fujitsu> labuser, yes... I installed both mldonkey-server and mldonkey-gui, and it still works.
[03:08] <labuser> dapper right
[03:09] <Fujitsu> Hmm.
[03:09] <Fujitsu> Yeah.
[03:09] <Fujitsu> BOOM
[03:09] <labuser> I don't know then
[03:09] <Fujitsu> I remove mldonkey-gui, try to remove mldonkey-server and it explodes.
[03:09] <labuser> there you go :)
[03:10] <labuser> I guess it really did go BOOM ... :)
[04:27] <floam> BenC: oh, okay
[04:44] <Hobbsee> morning all
[05:00] <dieman> JanC: the ml-2010 driver isn't actually in foomatic yet
[05:00] <dieman> ml-1710 supposedly works, but margins are off and you can't use the 1200x600 mode
[05:17] <Hobbsee> hi Burgundavia
[05:17] <Burgundavia> hey Hobbsee
[05:48] <bluefoxicy> wow that's nice, I just typed <tseng> tab and xchat-gnome printed:   tseng tseng tseng
[05:49] <bluefoxicy> anyway.  tseng:  If you're still up do you know what glibc detects of corrupted heap elements?
[05:51] <bluefoxicy> I'm thinking it's entirely possible to detect double free(), free() of a corrupt heap element, and free() when the next and previous elements in the chain of heap allocations are corrupt; but I'm not sure if glibc detects all of these AND differentiates between double free() and other weird corruption (which is doable simply by marking an entry in a special way when it's free()'d)
[05:51] <bluefoxicy> i know it'll catch some level of dirtiness.
[06:43] <fabbione> morning
[06:47] <Hobbsee> hi fabbione!
[06:48] <fabbione> hey Hobbsee
[06:48] <Hobbsee> fabbione: edgy isnt actually broken that badly :)
[06:49] <fabbione> it's all because we are too cool :)
[06:49] <Hobbsee> fabbione: of course :)
[06:51] <fabbione> hmmm
[06:51] <fabbione> i need more bw
[06:57] <Hobbsee> fabbione: bw?
[06:58] <fabbione> bandwidth
[07:00] <fabbione> SCORE
[07:01] <jsgotangco> how cheap/expensive is bw there in dk?
[07:01] <bluefoxicy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomatedSecurityVulnerabilityDetection  This would be awesome, if https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomatedProblemReports ever happens.
[07:01] <Hobbsee> fabbione: ahhhh...
[07:01] <bluefoxicy> Actually the double free()/heap corruption/stack smash detection and reporting can be done without the kernel-level facilities
[07:01] <fabbione> well who did activate the libata shit didn't prepare the transition properly
[07:02] <fabbione> jsgotangco: not that expensive..
[07:02] <bluefoxicy> also it may be possible to load default signal handlers and modify signal() to unload them when new handlers are installed and load ours when signal handlers are cleared.
[07:04] <bluefoxicy> ours would have to be able to tell signal() to load no handler *reliably* (ours would be in glibc though so no problem) and then send the signal to self to die though.  Hrm.  Or something creepy like that.
[07:36] <Hobbsee> do we  have any current ETA for l-r-m for 2.6.15-5-686?
[07:40] <Hobbsee> ah, i'ts oddly named, and it FTBFS.  fun.
[07:43] <floam> Hobbsee: it already exists
[07:43] <floam> it's probably sitting in line to be built
[07:44] <Hobbsee> floam: i'm meaning the one that depends on linux-image-2.6.17-5-686
[07:44] <Hobbsee> which is l-r-m-2.6.17-6-686, which FTBFS, it seems.
[07:44] <bluefoxicy> FTBFS?
[07:44] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: failed to build from source
[07:44] <bluefoxicy> oh
[07:45] <basanta> does ubuntu use different technique than debian to get flash drives automounted?
[07:45] <jsgotangco> :P
[07:45] <floam> basanta: does debian use HAL/pmount?
[07:45] <bluefoxicy> .... for signoff?
[07:46] <basanta> floam, yes
[07:47] <floam> then they probably do the same thing
[07:47] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: no, those have other acronyms
[07:47] <basanta> yes, but ubuntu can automount flash drives that debian can't
[07:48] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  yes but I assumed you wouldn't say 'fubar' if you intended somebody repair it :P
[07:48] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: well...
[07:48] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: stuff that's counted as fubar'd usually gets fixed, eventually, and after much swearing and cursing
[07:49] <Hobbsee> whee!  where's that darned autoconf patch.
[07:49] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  You guys need your own reality TV, seriously.  Swearing and cursing is amusing.
[07:49] <floam> basanta: there's a good chance ubuntu has patched things up a bit or has something newer, but I think they use the same general stuff
[07:50] <bluefoxicy> Did you see when Keybuk spent like 15 minutes spouting 'fuck' every other word because he tried to build openoffice.org and it installed over a gigabyte of build deps?
[07:50] <basanta> floam, ok
[07:50] <bluefoxicy> He was after poor doko's blood :P
[07:51] <Hobbsee> i heard about it, yeah
[07:52] <basanta> floam, do you think ubuntu-developers would share this patch? and do you know where to ask?
[07:52] <fabbione> Hobbsee: l-r-m will be sorted once 5.13 is built
[07:53] <Hobbsee> fabbione: 5.13 of linux-image?  or of l-r-m?
[07:53] <floam> basanta: well you can look through the packages yourself or ask in ubuntu-devel
[07:53] <floam> I'm sure they would share it
[07:53] <fabbione> Hobbsee: the former
[07:53] <Hobbsee> floam: everything's GPL'd...it's  likely to be around here somewhere.
[07:54] <floam> I assume by share he meant they'd find him for it and hand it over
[07:54] <Hobbsee> fabbione: right, know off the top of your head if that's about to be built?
[07:54] <floam> of course they have to allow him to use it
[07:54] <lifeless> floam: we share all out patches
[07:55] <fabbione> Hobbsee: https://launchpad.net/+builds
[07:55] <lifeless> erm, I meant basanta: we share all the patches
[07:55] <johanbr> basanta: Try looking at http://patches.ubuntu.com .
[07:55] <basanta> lifeless, johanbr thank  you .
[07:55] <Hobbsee> fabbione: ahh :)  that's the page i was looking for :)
 basanta: well you can look through the packages yourself or ask in ubuntu-devel  <-- uh floam?
[07:56] <floam> uh bluefoxicy?
[07:56] <bluefoxicy> this IS ubuntu-devel
[07:56] <floam> bluefoxicy: this is #ubuntu-devel
[07:56] <floam> there is also ubuntu-devel the mailing list
[07:56] <bluefoxicy> you said in, not on ubuntu-devel@
[07:56] <floam> whatever
[07:56] <floam> clearly we are here so there is only one other, I thought it made sense
[07:57] <floam> I will be sure not to mistake my prepositions in the future though
[08:04] <Hobbsee> floam: to be fair, #ubuntu-devel is usually the irc channel, and ubuntu-devel is the mailing list.
[08:04] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: ^
[08:51] <pitti> Good morning
[08:51] <Hobbsee> hi pitti!
[09:24] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: i think britney is confused - that's not the version of amarok in the repositories.  oh.  lovely.  hardcoded dependancy on amarok in amarok-arts, therefore the bugger wont install anyway.
[09:24] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  not so hot on that idea?
[09:25] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: oh well, it's just a first milestone, it's not that important if it's not perfect. :-)
[09:26] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: hehe that is true.  i'm just merely annoyed that it's taken me this long to notice, and that a few packages which i was told/thought were uploaded werent.
[09:26] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: become a core dev and you can fix it yourself. :-)
[09:27] <pitti> bluefoxicy: when I played with my preloaded-library approach (which is essentially the same thing) I had some problems with it as well, like gdb not being able to cleanly attach and so on; but that might be unrelated to the crashed process' state
[09:27] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: heh.  yeah.  reckon you can give me dev and core dev in the same meeting?  :P
[09:27] <Hobbsee> s/you/the TB
[09:27] <pitti> bluefoxicy: anyway, we can consider modifying glibc later, since it is totally independent from the actual spawned agent which collects data
[09:28] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: I don't think that's being done, no..  But you're active and seems clueful enough that making core-dev shouldn't take long anyway.
[09:28] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: hehe.  actually, it was funny.  i was told when i originally started packaging, by two separate people, that they could see me going for core dev soon.
[09:29] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  nod.  At any rate the program will sleep if you SIGSTOP it.
[09:32] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  i am still looking at this thing for automatically prioritizing things that look like new security vulns, by the way.
[09:33] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  do you think you'll have something ready by Edgy?
[09:37] <pitti> bluefoxicy: (btw, you can't ptrace() a stopped process)
[09:37] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  (shit)
[09:39] <pitti> bluefoxicy: yes, that's the goal
[09:40] <pitti> bluefoxicy: (having something for edgy)
[09:48] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  gdb seems to be able to attach to less after I ctrl-z less
[09:49] <pitti> bluefoxicy: not here, it just hangs indefinitely at 'Attaching to program:'
[09:50] <pitti> bluefoxicy: and after fg'ing the target process, gdb suffers a horrible death
[09:50] <bluefoxicy> ah right, it is hanging.
[09:50] <bluefoxicy> I see :o
[09:53] <pitti> bluefoxicy: it makes sense, since waitpid() on a  stopped process will never return
[09:53] <bluefoxicy> it looks like you can attach with ptrace(), just gdb doesn't understand why you would try.
[09:53] <bluefoxicy>  /build/buildd/gdb-6.4.90.dfsg/gdb/linux-nat.c:1025: internal-error: linux_nat_attach: Assertion `pid == GET_PID (inferior_ptid) && WIFSTOPPED (status) && WSTOPSIG (status) == SIGSTOP' failed.
[09:53] <bluefoxicy> ^^^ this is gdb bitching that the target process didn't return the status it was expecting
[09:53] <bluefoxicy> or that it just couldn't attach I guess.
[09:53] <bluefoxicy> it's one of the two, maybe you're right.
[09:53] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  want me to ping the gdb devs tomorrow on that?
[09:53] <pitti> bluefoxicy: if you feel like it, but I'm not sure whether it's merely a gdb restriction or a principal restriction of ptrace()
[09:54] <bluefoxicy> well, I'll find out.
[09:54] <pitti> thanks
[09:55] <bluefoxicy> night.
[09:55] <Hobbsee> night bluefoxicy
[10:01] <bluefoxicy> pitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomatedSecurityVulnerabilityDetection by the way.
[10:02] <bluefoxicy> (this would be the only reason I'm as interested as I am in this :)
[10:06] <pitti> bluefoxicy: thanks, will look at it
[10:43] <Mithrandir> ogra: you're aware that e-d is installable now?    Do you need new alternate CDs too?
[11:09] <fabbione> mdz: i am ready to upload the new redhat-cluster-suite. am I still go or do you want me to send email for UVF exception?
[11:10] <mdz> fabbione: what's in it?
[11:10] <ogra> Mithrandir, if you like :)
[11:11] <Mithrandir> ogra: alternate cds building.
[11:11] <fabbione> mdz: it's the natural upgrade from dapper (gfs1) to edgy (gfs1 and gfs2) userland. gfs2 is already in the kernel
[11:11] <ogra> Mithrandir, thanks !
[11:11] <fabbione> mdz: i only didn't manage to upload it before becuase of the big changes in the infrastructure
[11:11] <fabbione> mdz: (as i reported to the last meeting)
[11:12] <mdz> fabbione: backward-compatible?
[11:12] <fabbione> mdz: gfs2 no, the userland with gfs1 is modulo one line change in the config
[11:13] <fabbione> mdz: there is a proper debconf message for that
[11:13] <fabbione> mdz: that points to the wiki where we will build proper upgrade paths and stuff
[11:13] <mdz> fabbione: I mean is the package backward-compatible, not the filesystem
[11:13] <mdz> i.e., does it still support gfs1?
[11:13] <fabbione> mdz: yes it does
[11:14] <fabbione> it does support both
[11:14] <Kamion> argh, how do I get rid of the "Slow Keys Alert" without being able to click on it?
[11:14] <fabbione> but i need to merge the new gfs1 in the kernel.
[11:14] <mdz> ok, go ahead
[11:14] <Kamion> my mouse is already grabbed by vmware
[11:14] <fabbione> the new one uses shared lock manager with gfs2 to avoid code duplication
[11:14] <fabbione> mdz: perfect thanks
[11:14] <Kamion> and ctrl-alt does not work while the slow keys alert is up, apparently
[11:15] <mdz> Kamion: kill $random_gnome_component?
[11:16] <Kamion> yeah, which one though ...
[11:16] <Kamion> ah, gnome-settings-daemon maybe
[11:17] <Kamion> no, the bastard just comes back and leaves my keyboard screwed
[11:19] <Riddell> Mithrandir: kubuntu-desktop is broken because of koffice which is waiting on ruby1.8 compiling on powerpc
[11:20] <Riddell> doko: any idea what the gcc bug is that's cauing ruby1.8 to fail on powerpc?
[11:22] <bluefoxicy> mdz:  I'd wanted to bring your attention to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityEdgyIdeas/Install-CD earlier due to the /home directory thing.
[11:22] <infinity> Riddell: Are you sure it's a GCC bud and not a ruby bug?
[11:22] <bluefoxicy> I think.  I know there was something I wanted to bring your attention to specifically.
[11:23] <bluefoxicy> anyway I'm sleeping, it's 5am
[11:23] <Riddell> infinity: look at the build log, seems to be a gcc segfault
[11:23] <infinity> I don't see a GCC segfault.
[11:23] <dholbach> hey infinity! how are you?
[11:23] <infinity> /build/buildd/ruby1.8-1.8.4/build-tree/ruby-1.8.4/lib/mkmf.rb:804: [BUG]  Segmentation fault
[11:23] <infinity> ^^^ That's ruby segfaulting.
[11:24] <Riddell> hmm, right
[11:24] <infinity> Of course, it could be GCC miscompiling it still, but I'd like to blame ruby until I know for sure.
[11:24] <ogra> does anyone have experience with fakechroot ? i dont seem to be able to set up an environment ...
[11:26] <Mithrandir> ogra: your dailies are served.
[11:26] <ogra> thanks !
[11:27] <mdz> bluefoxicy: I reviewed those pages a couple of weeks ago and commented on things where I had an opinion
[11:27] <bluefoxicy> mdz:  nod, I did it a couple hours ago.
[11:28] <bluefoxicy> mdz:  short version:  some people I know actually have 500-750 gig hard drives and fill them with questionable content (for example, downloads of anime series they don't own...); that's like 100 DVDs or so.  It'd be nice to be able to nuke everything but /home at install if you're honestly going to make /root a big 500 gig partition just because the disk is 500 gigs wide.
[11:29] <bluefoxicy> er. /, not /root
[11:29] <bluefoxicy> sleep time for me.
[11:30] <Kamion> use manual partitioning then. there's no way for autopartitioning to keep everybody happy here.
[11:30] <Kamion> there's a reason we provide manual partitioning in non-expert mode
[11:33] <mdz> right, I think that's a fairly uncommon use case
[11:35] <Kamion> not so much uncommon use case as that there are N different common use cases. at least with the present situation it's easy to see that we chose it because it was the simplest alternative.
[11:36] <Kamion> Mithrandir: live CD's buggered - "User not known to the underlying authentication module" all over the place
[11:37] <Mithrandir> Kamion: gnr
[11:38] <Kamion> huh, it worked a second time, without quiet splash - except now my gdm login screen is ENORMOUS
[11:38] <Kamion> like 2048x1536 or something
[11:38] <Mithrandir> maybe it's a bad CD, then.
[11:38] <Kamion> it's vmware
[11:39] <Kamion> and autologin fails
[11:39] <Mithrandir> uh, ok
[11:39] <Mithrandir> I'll burn a dvd and see what happens on real hardware.
[11:39] <Mithrandir> this is i386, then?
[11:39] <Kamion> yes
[11:40] <Kamion> Mithrandir: since I'm here, anything I can do to debug it? I've forgotten how to debug casper
[11:41] <Mithrandir> Kamion: boot with break=bottom and poke /root to see if the ubuntu user is there.
[11:41] <Kamion> 'k
[11:44] <doko> Riddell: already checked, it's not a gcc bug, rechecked rebuilding with gcc-3.4 and gcc-3.4
[11:44] <infinity> s/3.4$/4.0/ ?
[11:45] <Kamion> bash: line 2: pwck: command not found
[11:45] <Mithrandir> Kamion: uh.
[11:45] <Kamion> it's in /usr/sbin; I suspect $PATH
[11:45] <Mithrandir> I thought casper set path, but maybe not?
[11:45] <Kamion> oh, never mind, I'm running this manually
[11:46] <Mithrandir> we should just make sbin a symlink to bin and get rid of that sillyness. :-P
[11:46] <Kamion> what's the break= to let me edit casper-bottom scripts before they run?
[11:47] <Mithrandir> break=casper-bottom
[11:47] <Kamion> ta
[11:47] <Mithrandir> (surprise!) :-)
[11:50] <Mithrandir> it would also have been nice if udev hadn't suddenly removed udevplug without telling me.
[11:50] <Kamion> ah yes, try udevtrigger && udevsettle
[11:51] <Kamion> I thought Scott was going to leave a wrapper :(
[11:51] <Mithrandir> apparently not.
[11:54] <Kamion> Mithrandir: you need to do 'set passwd/make-user false' too.
[11:54] <Kamion> er, true, not false
[11:54] <Kamion> dunno why that didn't break dapper
[11:54] <Mithrandir> why doesn't it default to true?
[11:54] <Kamion> er. it does. I haven't had breakfast yet.
[11:55] <Mithrandir> may I suggest eating breakfast and coffee, then? ;-)
[11:55] <Kamion> yeah
[12:05] <Mithrandir> Kamion: ok, it seems like casper doesn't set the path correctly, somewhere.  I'll just export it at the top of the casper script and let it be with that, I think.
[12:06] <Kamion> oh, you saw the same thing then?
[12:07] <Kamion> ./scripts/casper:301:    PATH=/root/usr/bin:/root/usr/sbin:/root/bin:/root/sbin:$PATH run_scripts /scripts/casper-bottom
[12:07] <Mithrandir> yeah
[12:07] <Mithrandir> well, it works if I pass PATH=/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/bin:/sbin on the kernel command line
[12:10] <Kamion> that creates the user for me too, yes
[12:10] <Kamion> I have no xorg.conf now
[12:10] <Kamion> I think I didn't on one of my previous boots too, so it's not due to PATH
[12:10] <Mithrandir> me neither, but I wonder if that's just X being b0rken.
[12:11] <Mithrandir> export PATH=/root/usr/bin:/root/usr/sbin:/root/bin:/root/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/bin
[12:11] <Mithrandir> should be sane?
[12:11] <Kamion> oh, I understand the problem now
[12:11] <Kamion> /root/usr/sbin is not useful once you've chrooted
[12:11] <maswan> Mithrandir: shouldn't you have a /sbin in there btw?
[12:12] <Mithrandir> maswan: thanks, fixed.  The last one should have been /sbin
[12:12] <Kamion> just do PATH=/root/usr/bin:/root/usr/sbin:/root/bin:/root/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:$PATH run_scripts /scripts/casper-bottom
[12:12] <Mithrandir> Kamion: well, no, but if you do break=bottom and echo $PATH it includes sbin
[12:12] <Mithrandir> iirc
[12:13] <Kamion> dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg -> still no xorg.conf
[12:13] <Mithrandir> iz X bug, then
[12:14] <Mithrandir> oh, thepthul.  break=top gives me PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin
[12:14] <Kamion> score
[12:14] <Kamion> initramfs-tools bug?
[12:15] <Mithrandir> it seems it's the PATH coming from the kernel
[12:15] <infinity> yeah, initramfs-tools doesn't define a PATH.
[12:15] <infinity> Probably should.
[12:15] <infinity> Though the kernel shouldn't be broken in this regard either.
[12:16] <Mithrandir> Kamion: if you fix xorg, I'll do casper.
[12:17] <Kamion> you're on
[12:30] <Kamion> xorg fixed
[12:30] <Kamion> what's up with the lack of wallpaper in a default edgy install?
[12:32] <infinity> Kamion: I'm running the publisher by hand right now to speed up the ABI switch.  Poke me when that xorg is uploaded, so I can publish again.
[12:32] <infinity> Mithrandir: Ditto, for casper.
[12:34] <Kamion> infinity: it's already uploadd
[12:34] <Kamion> +e
[12:34] <Kamion> if you mean source
[12:35] <Mithrandir> infinity: cheers.
[12:36] <simira> Mithrandir: that was quick
[12:37] <infinity> Kamion: Kay, you win.
[12:37] <infinity> Mithrandir: And you?
[12:37] <Mithrandir> infinity: just a sec, I want to test this locally first.
[12:37] <infinity> 5 minutes of testing, or 30?
[12:37] <Mithrandir> closer to 30 than 5
[12:37] <Mithrandir> so just push Colin's stuff through first.
[12:38] <infinity> Okay, I'll publish while I wait, then.
[12:38] <simira> do I feel a Knot approaching?
[12:38] <ogra> smells like it
[12:38] <ogra> :)
[12:38] <fabbione> Mithrandir: mind if i upload openais? it's -server/cluster stuff
[12:39] <Mithrandir> fabbione: please do.
[12:39] <fabbione> Mithrandir: thanks
[12:46] <Kamion> simira: ubiquity doesn't work yet, so it'll take a while ...
[12:49] <pitti> mdz: what do you think about updating mutt from a cvs snapshot to the stable 1.5.12 version? mainly bug fixes, translation updates, and code cleanup, and two small new features; I can send you the full changelog if you want
[12:52] <mdz> pitti: edgy or dapper?
[12:52] <pitti> mdz: edgy
[12:56] <pitti> hi slomo
[12:56] <slomo> hi pitti
[01:18] <doko> Mithrandir, Kamion: please could you sync dmake (needed to build OOo, doesn't touch the CD's)
[01:18] <pitti> wb mdz
[01:18] <pitti> mdz: in case you sent an answer after '<pitti> mdz: edgy', I didn't get it
[01:19] <Mithrandir> doko: I can't do syncs.
[01:19] <doko> Mithrandir: yeah, but you're current the lock holder ;)
[01:19] <Mithrandir> doko: if it doesn't touch the CDs, I have no objection.
[01:21] <Kamion> ok, I'll start a sync run
[01:21] <Kamion> doko: please assign sync requests for single packages to the relevant package - it makes things slightly easier to find
[01:21] <infinity> Mithrandir: ETA on the casper upload?
[01:22] <Mithrandir> infinity: sorry, had to bootstrap a bit here, if stuff works, in ten minutes.
[01:22] <infinity> Okay, I'll wait.
[01:22] <infinity> (Well, I'll build xorg and massage it through while I'm waiting)
[01:22] <mdz> pitti: <mdz> pitti: sure, yes
[01:22] <doko> Kamion: 53158
[01:23] <Kamion> yes I've found it now, just for the future
[01:23] <Kamion> main reason is that if it's assigned to the right package then launchpad tells us right on the bug page what component it's in
[01:24] <ogra> i'm trying to bootstrap a fakechrrot here, seems it fails on initscripts installation because its not able to bind mount / to /.root anybody having a hint what i could look for to find ot why mount says "no such file or directory" ? (/.root exists)
[01:24] <ogra> *fakechroot
[01:25] <ogra> meh
[01:26] <ogra> Mithrandir, its developemtn related, i need the fakechroots on the DC machines :P
[01:27] <Kamion> fakechroot's probably just broken. I don't think it's ever had any love in Ubuntu.
[01:27] <ogra> nope, it hadnt
[01:27] <Kamion> and it does some invasive things which are likely to break
[01:27] <ogra> its also in universe ... and we dont have a debootstrap variant (i'm just creating one)
[01:27] <Lathiat> hey wow thats kinda cool
[01:28] <ogra> Kamion, elmo wants me to use it ...
[01:28] <Kamion> fix it, then :)
[01:28] <Kamion> er ... debootstrap variant?
[01:28] <ogra> funnily not even the sarge.fakechroot variant bottstraps cleanly... seems it had not more love in debian
[01:29] <Kamion> please run that by me before uploading, some of the proposed debootstrap hacks are really nasty
[01:29] <Kamion> that's probably because aj thinks it's horrible crack too
[01:29] <ogra> Kamion, i didnt plan to add it to the package (unless you want fakechroot in main)
[01:29] <Kamion> hell no
[01:29] <ogra> :)
[01:30] <Kamion> if the debootstrap script is in the fakechroot package I guess that's ok
[01:30] <ogra> but a review would be appreciated :)
[01:31] <ogra> (i simply took the edgy script and changed device, ldd functions and proc mounting to the fakechroot functions debootstrap provides)
[01:31] <ogra> *device creation
[01:32] <Mithrandir> ok, casper seems to work now.
[01:34] <Mithrandir> infinity: ok, uploaded, so do your thing.
[01:35] <infinity>    72793 | S- | casper               | 1.61                 | 5 seconds
[01:35] <infinity> Heh.  Wasn't there when I looked 10 seconds ago.
[01:35] <Mithrandir> :-)
[01:35] <Mithrandir> thanks
[01:40] <Kamion> hmm. ubiquity works (ish), gparted --installer doesn't.
[01:41] <Kamion> I guess that wasn't really a surprise
[01:41] <mdz> fabbione: how is sparc looking for a milestone?
[01:41] <mdz> Kamion: the i386 desktop CD i built on Saturday booted but failed to start X
[01:41] <mdz> had to leave for the airport at that point
[01:42] <mdz> did someone look into powerpc?
[01:42] <Kamion> mdz: that's sorted nonw
[01:42] <Kamion> now
[01:42] <Kamion> xserver-xorg.postinst was broken
[01:42] <mdz> Kamion: was there anything besides gnome-applets hurting powerpc?
[01:42] <Kamion> apparently not
[01:42] <mdz> yay
[01:43] <Kamion> not dependency-wise anyway
[01:44] <Kamion> doko: bug 50311 is another reason why you should assign to the proper package; then launchpad will do typo validation for you
[01:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 50311 in wajig "wajig grabs information from debian.org instead of ubuntu.com" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/50311
[01:44] <Kamion> doko: er, bug 53011
[01:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53011 in Ubuntu "sync request" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53011
[01:44] <Kamion> speaking of typos :)
[01:44] <Kamion> build-bot doesn't exist
[01:44] <doko> Kamion: buildbot, yes, I will do so for the future
[01:44] <ogra> hmm, intresting ... a DD who recompiles his packages for hoary and breezy http://people.debian.org/~dexter/dists/fakechroot/
[01:45] <Kamion> thanks
[01:45] <thom> nrrrgh dexter
[01:48] <basanta> G0SUB, bg in disguise??
[01:50] <infinity> We should totally hire dexter and convert the entire archive to yada.
[01:51] <ogra> heh
[01:52] <thom> infinity: is that before or after we shift to using rpms?
[01:52] <ogra> i thought we'd stay with deb but use alien ?
[01:52] <ogra> ;)
[01:54] <ogra> Setting up initscripts (2.86.ds1-14.1ubuntu1) ...
[01:55] <ogra> mkdir: cannot create directory `/.root': File exists
[01:56] <ogra> ah, thats the second attempt ...
[01:56] <ogra> Setting up initscripts (2.86.ds1-14.1ubuntu1) ...
[01:56] <ogra> mount: No such file or directory
[01:56] <ogra> grmbl
[02:01] <fabbione> mdz: no specific sparc work has been done. So whatever is in the other arches is on sparc
[02:03] <Mithrandir> Kamion: what's the state of ubiquity, etc wrt knot-1?
[02:04] <G0SUB> Kamion: bug 53238
[02:04] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53238 in ubiquity "Ubiquity doesn't complain about bootable XFS partitions" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53238
[02:04] <pitti> Hi G0SUB
[02:04] <G0SUB> pitti: hello :) I came back today
[02:06] <Kamion> G0SUB: duplicate of about a million other bugs; see DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues
[02:08] <Kamion> Mithrandir: need to sort out gparted
[02:08] <G0SUB> Kamion: ok, thanks for the pointer
[02:08] <Kamion> 12:40 < Kamion> hmm. ubiquity works (ish), gparted --installer doesn't.
[02:08] <Kamion> 12:41 < Kamion> I guess that wasn't really a surprise
[02:08] <Kamion> G0SUB: it'll be fixed in my first edgy upload, too
[02:08] <Kamion> well, worked around anyway
[02:13] <pitti> G0SUB: can we meet today?
[02:14] <G0SUB> pitti: tomorrow at 14:00 UTC?
[02:14] <pitti> G0SUB: ok
[02:14] <G0SUB> fine
[02:24] <Kamion> mdz: have you done the validation for the ubuntu-archive e-mail change?
[02:35] <Kamion> Hmm. Now gparted at least plugs in correctly but you can't do anything in it.
[02:37] <Fujitsu> Kamion, can I ask you a quick question about the carpaltunnel sync?
[02:39] <zul> heylo
[02:40] <snorre> Take a look at this: http://pastebin.ca/90171
[02:40] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: what's the question?
[02:40] <Kamion> Fujitsu: sure
[02:41] <Fujitsu> Would it be acceptable to just rebrand carpaltunnel 0.0.9-0.1 as 0.0.9ubuntu2, without putting in the rest of the changelog entries, etc?
[02:41] <Fujitsu> Because merging is silly if it increases the delta more than necessary because a sync isn't possible.
[02:42] <Kamion> Fujitsu: yes
[02:42] <Fujitsu> OK, thanks.
[02:42] <Kamion> just note it in the changelog so that we know to sync it if <IP_ADDRESS> or 0.0.10 or whatever shows up
[02:43] <Fujitsu> OK, shall do.
[02:43] <snorre> Can someone that's into kernel compiling please look at this issue: http://pastebin.ca/90171
[02:46] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: did you ever find out what the problem with ppc kubuntu-desktop was?
[02:46] <Hobbsee> hi Keybuk
[02:46] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: Riddell told me it was koffice.
[02:47] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: right.  how bizarre
[02:47] <Hobbsee> it's not.
[02:47] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: heyhey
[02:48] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: i've been breaking things :D
[02:49] <Hobbsee> well, not really...
[02:49] <Keybuk> so have I :)
[02:49] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: hehe..  what'd you break?
[02:50] <Kamion> TTOTD: dpkg-genchanges > foo.deb is not very useful
[02:50] <Kamion> (meant foo.changes obviously)
[02:50] <Hobbsee> Kamion: TTOTD?
[02:50] <Kamion> top tip of the day
[02:51] <Riddell> Hobbsee: ruby on powerpc isn't compiling, which is blocking koffice
[02:51] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ah.  but why's koffice in k-d anyway?
[02:52] <Riddell> Hobbsee, Mithrandir: I uploaded kubuntu-meta without koffice so once that's in the archive we should be able to start making CDs
[02:52] <Riddell> Hobbsee: for krita
[02:52] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ahh.  right
[02:53] <Hobbsee> Riddell: do we know what happened to wlassistant?
[02:55] <Riddell> Hobbsee: looks like it got uploaded to dapper, let me reupload to edgy
[02:55] <Hobbsee> Riddell: oops?  right.
[02:56] <Hobbsee> Riddell: why?
[02:56] <Kamion> ah, gparted is SIGSEGVing; that would explain why it disappears ...
[02:56] <Riddell> Hobbsee: the changelog had dapper in it not edgy
[02:56] <Hobbsee> Riddell: oops.
[02:57] <Kamion> it's not in dapper's unapproved queue
[02:57] <Kamion> apparently got randomly auto-rejected; I wish soyuz would stop doing that
[02:58] <Hobbsee> hehe
[02:58] <Kamion> oh, there was no .orig.tar.gz in the .changes (which would have been fine for edgy but not for dapper)
[03:18] <dholbach> i'd be so happy if there was a "xgl or whatever" strike force - we get a bunch of bugs just because our versions of xgl/compiz/... are broken and some random packages on the net seem to work
[03:18] <dholbach> (apart from that I'd be happy, if I could subscribe an xgl team to a bug to get some input) :)
[03:19] <seb128> Mithrandir: is that ok to upload epiphany-extensions (just a rebuild), it's not on the CD
[03:19] <Mithrandir> seb128: please do
[03:19] <seb128> thank you
[03:39] <lucas> is there a know problem with /usr/include/scsi/sg.h being in both libc6-dev and linux-kernel-headers ?
[03:40] <dholbach> Gloubiboulga, Riddell: we thought about having a "fix your favourite desktop" hug day on wednesday
[03:41] <simira> :)
[03:41] <Riddell> dholbach: sure
[03:41] <dholbach> Gloubiboulga, Riddell: if you want to add / fix things on wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Draft - that'd be nice
[03:41] <Gloubiboulga> dholbach, would be nice
[03:42] <Riddell> dholbach: poke me in half an hour after the kubuntu meeting
[03:42] <dholbach> Gloubiboulga, Riddell: just look at the pages and add whatever you think might be useful
[03:45] <Hobbsee> dholbach: that'd be cool :)
[03:52] <sladen> Keybuk / infinity: could you represent wxwidgets2.6 to the buildds
[03:52] <Keybuk> sladen: I'm on holiday today
[03:53] <sladen> Keybuk: holiday!   I didn't know Canonical /did/ holiday :)
[03:53] <Hobbsee> surely they dont.
[03:53] <Hobbsee> there's no such thing as a holyda
[03:53] <Hobbsee> *holiday
[03:54] <jdub> see, no such thing, Hobbsee can't even spell the word
[03:54] <ogra> Kamion, the installer on ppc tells me it finds no kernel modules
[03:54] <Hobbsee> jdub: hehe!  i cant typing-spell anyway
[03:59] <simira> Mithrandir: hey, time to get home to make pancakes! I am hungry!
[03:59] <^robertj> what's the correct method for requesting a package from non-free be brought into multiverse?
[04:00] <pitti> ^robertj: a sync request, I'd say
[04:00] <Hobbsee> pitti: heh, surely not...
[04:00] <^robertj> pitti: hrmm, where?
[04:00] <fabbione> pitti: apr sounds good.. like libapr.. and make it clash with libapr from apache :P
[04:01] <pitti> ^robertj: file a bug against an unknown package, ask for the sync, give the package name and source and subscribe ubuntu-archive
[04:01] <^robertj> pitti: aha, thanks
[04:01] <pitti> fabbione: the current name is crash-reporter, but that feels like namespace trampling
[04:01] <Mithrandir> pitti: call it apport, which means to fetch something (like, a dog which fetches a stick you throw) as well as the description on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apport
[04:02] <pitti> Mithrandir: hm, I like 'apport'
[04:02] <Mithrandir> "Category: Occult"
[04:02] <Mithrandir> ;-)
[04:02] <pitti> Mithrandir: has some connotation to a watchdog
[04:02] <Mithrandir> simira: yes, dear.
[04:02] <ogra> Kamion, hw-detect: Missing modules 'ide-core, ide-mod, ide-probe-mod, ide-detect, ide-generic'
[04:02] <jsgotangco> jdub: do you have the fridge drupal theme handy with you?
[04:02] <Mithrandir> pitti: it's also APpoRt so you have the right letters in there. :-P
[04:03] <pitti> Mithrandir: heh @ asport
[04:03] <fabbione> simira: isn't about time to call Mithrandir when pancakes are ready instead? ;)
[04:03] <pitti> Mithrandir: now I know a verb for this well-known effect :)
[04:03] <pitti> fabbione: you have been married for too long already :-P
[04:03] <Mithrandir> pitti: haha. :-)
[04:04] <pitti> Mithrandir: 'crapport' :)
[04:04] <fabbione> pitti: ahaha
[04:04] <pitti> Mithrandir.apport(pancake)
[04:05] <Mithrandir> wuff
[04:05] <^robertj> pitti: bug #53245
[04:05] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53245 in Ubuntu "sync request for tremulous" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53245
[04:05] <pitti> ^robertj: and now subscribe ubuntu-archive
[04:06] <^robertj> looking for that op[tion now
[04:06] <Kamion> ogra: not surprising
[04:06] <Kamion> ogra: probably built against the wrong kernel version or something
[04:06] <pitti> ^robertj: 'Subscribe someone else'
[04:06] <^robertj> done
[04:06] <pitti> ^robertj: looks good now
[04:06] <^robertj> thanks a heap, great game btw :)
[04:06] <^robertj> Vicious though...
[04:07] <ogra> Kamion, likely... are these modules coming from a udeb or should i see them in /lib/modules somewhere ?
[04:07] <Kamion> ogra: udebs get unpacked into /lib/modules
[04:07] <Kamion> at least those udebs do
[04:07] <Kamion> modprobe does not magically know how to unpack udebs ;-)
[04:07] <ogra> yes, but thats at the very first screen after selecting the language and scanning the CD
[04:07] <Kamion> ogra: alt-f2, uname -a
[04:07] <ogra> so there are no modules with these names at all
[04:08] <Kamion> the initramfs is also built out of udebs
[04:08] <ogra> 2.6.17-5-powerpc
[04:08] <ogra> which matches /lib/modules
[04:08] <Kamion> ogra: look in /cdrom/pool/main/l/linux-source-2.6.17; see if there are any udebs there with the right kernel versions
[04:09] <ogra> ah, well
[04:10] <ogra> all 2.6.17-4.6
[04:10] <ogra> so we'll need a d-i rebuild i bet
[04:10] <Kamion> ogra: no
[04:10] <Kamion> ogra: is this edubuntu?
[04:11] <ogra> yes
[04:11] <Kamion> ogra: you need to do a seed merge to pull in my most recent change to the installer seed
[04:11] <ogra> built some hours ago
[04:11] <ogra> eek, ok
[04:11] <Kamion> if the udebs are out of date, that's never something that needs a d-i rebuild
[04:11] <Kamion> because the debian-installer source package does not build any udebs - it is strictly a consumer of udebs
[04:12] <ogra> oh, right they come from the kernel source, i forgot
[04:12] <Kamion> if the kernel/initramfs are out of date, then *that's* due to d-i being out of date
[04:14] <mxpxpod> are the vmware modules for the new dapper kernel scheduled for compile?
[04:23] <Kamion> ^robertj: FYI we sync source packages not binaries, so it's best to just give the source package name
[04:24] <^robertj> yeah, should have it's just called tremulous so I think if anyone tackles it they will find it without much difficulty :)
[04:26] <Kamion> nod
[04:26] <Kamion> s/if/when/, sync requests are processed relatively promptly
[04:26] <^robertj> ooh, good :)
[04:28] <Hobbsee> Kamion: that they are.  thanks :)
[04:34] <Kamion> Hobbsee: which one was that?
[04:34] <Kamion> I think I did all of yours so I probably overlooked that
[04:34] <Hobbsee> Kamion: ah, it was a gnome one....camorama
[04:35] <Hobbsee> Kamion: hehe thankyou :)
[04:35] <Kamion> I didn't process that; I assume ubuntu-archive wasn't subscribed
[04:36] <Hobbsee> Kamion: okay, i'm not sure why.  i'll grab you a link
[04:36] <Kamion> oh, it's because you assigned it to ubuntu-archive too
[04:36] <Hobbsee> Kamion: oh dear.  did i really do that?
[04:36] <Kamion> that causes it not to show up on the list we normally use (probably due to a Malone bug); I suggest you leave syncs unassigned, as a general rule
[04:37] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/camorama/+bug/53153/+activity says so :)
[04:37] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53153 in camorama "[Edgy MoM]  Please sync camorama  0.17-5 from Debian Sid" [Untriaged,Confirmed]
[04:37] <Hobbsee> Kamion: i thought i subscribed it, sorry about that.  i suspect i might have done that with another one too
[04:38] <Kamion> I'll hunt all other such bugs down now
[04:38] <Kamion> just two
[04:39] <Hobbsee> yeah.  i didnt think i'd done it on the one. sorry about that.  i'd only recently started subscribing the archive myself, rather than getting a MOTU to do it.
[04:39] <Kamion> no problem
[04:48] <ogra> Kamion, does the seed tree have a LP page i can subscribe to to getnotified (its not on SeedManagement or i'm blind)
[05:04] <Kamion> ogra: I guess that would be https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-core-dev/+branch/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.edgy/+subscribe; I've never tried it, but let me know if notifications work for that and I'll add it to SeedManagement
[05:04] <Kamion> I think it only pulls every day though
[05:04] <ogra> Kamion, thanks, i'll tell you if it works
[05:04] <Kamion> but probably better than nothing
[05:05] <ogra> yep, i wouldnt have missed the last changes that way ...
[05:05] <ogra> but i have not gotten any change notifications from the other branches, so tha feature might only be available in gui yet :)
[05:05] <ogra> *that
[05:09] <Kamion> ok, anyone who understands gtk and window managers around? gparted is creating dialogs that are marked transient for a GtkPlug, and they're appearing behind the window containing the corresponding GtkSocket
[05:09] <Kamion> I've tried both raise() and present() (although admittedly not in combination)
[05:10] <Kamion> present() has no effect whatsoever here as far as I can tell; raise() does cause the dialog to appear in front of a terminal window that's also on the screen rather than right at the back, but doesn't bring it to the front of the window-containing-the-socket
[05:12] <Riddell> groovy, kubuntu-desktop installable everywhere, I guess that means we can start making CDs
[05:14] <Riddell> Kamion: could you kick off a livefs build for kubuntu?
[05:14] <Kamion> Riddell: running
[05:14] <Kamion> you'll need at least one more before knot-1 of coursse
[05:15] <Riddell> Kamion: why?
[05:16] <Kamion> Riddell: ubiquity's not remotely ready
[05:17] <Kamion> I have a huge pile of stuff in bzr to upload
[05:17] <Riddell> fair enough
[05:17] <Kamion> but only when it works :)
[05:17] <Riddell> Kamion: how's the alternative installer doing?
[05:17] <Kamion> tolerably OK I think
[05:17] <Riddell> I'll start an alternative CD build for kubuntu
[05:29] <elmo> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/linux-kernel-headers_2.6.17-5.13_i386.deb (--unpack): trying to overwrite `/usr/include/scsi/scsi.h', which is also in package libc6-dev
[05:30] <elmo> so, err, do I need to run away screaming from this box now or what?
[05:31] <sladen> niiice.
[05:31] <tseng> i did --force-overwrite and lived happily ever after
[05:31] <Hobbsee> elmo: yeah, i got that.  i used --force-overwrite too
[05:31] <tseng> ignorance is bliss.
[05:31] <elmo> did either of you report bugs?
[05:31] <Hobbsee> elmo: no, i made a mental note to do it though.
[05:31] <tseng> no, I assumed it was so horribly obvious
[05:32] <Hobbsee> sheesh we're terrible
[05:32] <tseng> yeah.
[05:32] <fabbione> elmo: known bug
[05:32] <fabbione> elmo: we need to get Ben to upload a new kernel
[05:33] <Kamion> infinity noticed it and stuck l-k-h on hold in all the buildds' edgy chroots
[05:36] <dholbach> mjg59: hello! i came across bug 49503 and thought that the Power spec had an idea for solving cases like the one mentioned there. or am i wrong?
[05:36] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 49503 in gnome-session "Hibernate button being displayed and functions on remote connections" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/49503
[05:58] <doko> Keybuk: when are merges manual? is this status dropped again, if unstable has a new upstream?
[05:58] <Keybuk> doko: ?
[05:58] <doko> Keybuk: universe-manual.html
[05:58] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: I have a tv tuner (pci) and a webcam (usb); when both are plugged in it seems random which device is /dev/video0. Is that expected with dapper's udev?
[05:58] <pitti> zul: ping
[05:58] <Keybuk> doko: those are the list of sources for which there is no version in Debian less than the version in Ubuntu
[05:58] <Keybuk> ie. Ubuntu packages 1.0-0ubuntu1 and Debian packages 1.0-1
[05:58] <Keybuk> there's no base version for comparison
[05:58] <Keybuk> HiddenWolf: yes.
[05:58] <doko> ahh, thanks
[05:58] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: right. :(
[05:58] <Keybuk> HiddenWolf: modern software shouldn't care ... it should present you a list of the available video devices
[05:58] <Keybuk> and remember them by more useful details
[05:58] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: so the bug is in tvtime. :)
[05:58] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk: thank you
[05:59] <sfllaw> The video layer under Linux is just horrible.
[05:59] <sfllaw> tvtime really can't do much.
[06:00] <Hobbsee> hi sfllaw :)
[06:00] <sfllaw> It's like the bad old days of DOS printers.
[06:08] <ogra> dholbach, the simple bug is gnome-session not caring for the /apps/gnome-power-manager/can_{suspend,hibernate} gconf key
[06:09] <ogra> if it would do that, the buttons wouldnt be shown
[06:12] <mcquaid> hello i wanted to backport baobab from edgy to dapper.  however no version of baobab is currently in edgy
[06:12] <siretart> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/baobab
[06:12] <siretart>    Removed on 2006-07-05 12:44:06 UTC
[06:12] <mcquaid> does that happen sometimes when the next version is building up or does that mean a pkg has been dropped?
[06:13] <siretart> why that?
[06:13] <mcquaid> hmm, no reason listed there..
[06:15] <ogra> its included in control-center or gnome-system-tools now you wont be able to backport that right away
[06:16] <mcquaid> huh? sorry not quite getting that. it's become part of gnome-system-tools?
[06:17] <dholbach> siretart: it's in gnome-utils now
[06:17] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~/seeds/edubuntu.edgy$ dpkg -S /usr/bin/baobab
[06:17] <ogra> gnome-utils: /usr/bin/baobab
[06:17] <ogra> sorry, gnome-utils ...
[06:17] <dholbach> siretart: and we have a bug report marked as fix committed, which will add it to the packages description
[06:18] <siretart> ok
[06:18] <mcquaid> oh well, i guess i'll use the swartz
[06:18] <mcquaid> but why do that anyway? baobab has no gnome deps
[06:18] <siretart> I assume gnome-utils handles upgrades from baobab users in dapper gracefully..
[06:18] <mcquaid> seems limiting
[06:19] <siretart> thats right. what about xfce users, who want baobab without gnome-utils?
[06:19] <mcquaid> for ex, i use it in xfce
[06:19] <ogra> ask gnome about it ...
[06:19] <dholbach> bad luck... baobab upstream wants to maintain it in gnome-utils and asked me to get rid of the old package
[06:19] <ogra> it was an upstream decision by the looks of it
[06:20] <dholbach> debian will do that too once they have gnome 2.15
[06:20] <dholbach> as it makes no sense to have the same code in the archive twice
[06:21] <mcquaid> yes, but makes just as little to tie something to a particular de when it's not needed
[06:21] <LaserJock> Kamion: ping?
[06:23] <ompaul> No manual entry for pickups <--- this is cos its a real guitar :)
[06:23] <ompaul> woops
[06:24] <Kamion> LaserJock: hi
[06:25] <LaserJock> Kamion: doh, nvm. I wondered why you unassigned ubuntu-archive from some sync bugs.
[06:28] <Kamion> pitti: sudo 1.6.8p12-4ubuntu2 doesn't seem to have the "keep all environment variables for users with unrestricted sudo" behaviour you added
[06:29] <pitti> Kamion: oh, indeed
[06:29] <pitti> Kamion: thanks for spotting, I will fix that
[06:29] <Kamion> thanks - it breaks ubiquity
[06:29] <pitti> Kamion: (it still has the patch, but the Debian fix breaks it)
[06:29] <Kamion> well, slightly. it means that it can't talk to gnome-screensaver
[06:29] <pitti> Kamion: (I'm in a meeting now, will fix later)
[06:29] <Kamion> I figure you can fix it faster than I can :-) but if you don't have the time, let me know and I'll switch to that
[06:34] <ogra> BenC, would it soemhow be possible to change the load order for {e,o}hci_hcd ? seems my laptop only recognizes ohci (USB 1.1) if thats loaded first somehow slowing down my USB disks ...
[06:34] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  I recommend a bios update as well ;)
[06:35] <mjg59> ogra: No
[06:35] <mjg59> That's handled by udev
[06:35] <mjg59> We should fix the bug
[06:35] <ogra> Kamion, does lithium not publish automatically anymore ? i see no trace of  20060717.1
[06:35] <ogra> mjg59, yes, i wasnt aware it was udev
[06:35] <Riddell> Kamion: where's the place to look for livefs buildlogs?
[06:37] <BenC> ogra: It should matter...ehci should work still
[06:37] <Kamion> Riddell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/livefs-build-logs/
[06:37] <BenC> shouldn't matter
[06:37] <BenC> 2.6.7-5.14 coming to a buildd near you...
[06:37] <ogra> BenC, i have a dmesg entry that the device will only be used at low speed as long as ohci is loaded
[06:37] <Kamion> ogra: look at the end of the build log and the reason will be clear (i.e. I broke some code); fixing
[06:37] <ogra> ah
[06:37] <Kamion> ogra: please always look at the build log before asking me :)
[06:38] <ogra> Kamion, will do, sorry
[06:38] <mcquaid> btw, regarding packages, since i went to dapper i've noticed a fair amount of 'orphaned' packages listed in synaptic but can't actually be installed as it's no longer available
[06:39] <BenC> mcquaid: python stuff?
[06:39] <Kamion> only edubuntu was affected, so I'll fix it by handd
[06:39] <mcquaid> is there any way to clear those up, or is it other avail programs that referenced it in some dep
[06:39] <Kamion> mcquaid: deborphan
[06:39] <mcquaid> BenC, for example libgtop-2.5 is still listed
[06:39] <Kamion> oh, ones you don't have installed?
[06:39] <pitti> Kamion: for me, I can start fixing it in about 90 minutes; how urgent is it?
[06:39] <mcquaid> yes
[06:39] <Kamion> I think those are just ones that are referenced in dependencies
[06:40] <mcquaid> ok,
[06:40] <Kamion> pitti: I guess that would be OK; do you know the fix already?
[06:41] <pitti> Kamion: shouldn't be hard to do, I guesstimate 45 minutes for fixing and proper testing
[06:43] <Kamion> ah, if you don't know the fix immediately I'll leave it to you; I have a lot of other knot-1-critical-path stuff to do
[06:43] <Kamion> pitti: could you make sure to roll in the fix in bug 53273? the consequences of that bug are a bit nasty
[06:43] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53273 in sudo "prerm doesn't work with dash" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53273
[06:43] <pitti> oh, another bashism?
[06:43] <pitti> sure
[06:44] <ogra> pitti,  we have tons of them
[06:44] <Kamion> argh, can we please at least put command editing into dash? it's really frustrating not having that
[06:44] <Kamion> ogra: the bulk of them are in scripts that say #!/bin/bash though
[06:44] <Kamion> which is not ideal but not a bug either
[06:44] <ogra> well, *my* scripts didnt until now :)
[06:45] <ogra> but i have seem some other incidents ...
[06:45] <ogra> like debian/rules failing because of "rm -f /blah/{targetfile1,targetfile2}
[06:45] <ogra> "
[06:46] <Kamion> yeah, there's not a lot of that left though
[06:46] <Kamion> most of that was dealt with in Debian a long time ago
[06:46] <ogra> but debian never switched ...
[06:47] <ogra> so it might have reappeared
[06:47] <Kamion> there have been people building stuff with dash as /bin/sh to test for that
[06:47] <Kamion> and lintian warns about its use in maintainer scripts
[06:48] <Kamion> so it doesn't tend to reappear all that much
[06:48] <Kamion> yes, there is the odd exception
[06:48] <ogra> :)
[06:48] <Kamion> generally speaking, though, it's in dodgy upstream shell programs rather than debian/rules or maintainer scripts
[06:49] <Kamion> the bulk of Debian maintainers have been made well aware of the problems by very long mail threads and lots of bug reports
[06:50] <ogra> yu, i noticed that ... its hard to find info on bashisms since you only get a long list of debian bugs at google :)
[06:50] <ogra> *yup
[06:51] <Kamion> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/nfindex.html is the POSIX specification, which includes the shell
[06:52] <Kamion> avoid things marked [XSI]  in /bin/sh scripts
[06:52] <Kamion> and avoid things not listed at all
[06:52] <ogra> thanks a lot, i'll see if i can get ltsp dash clean ...
[06:53] <Kamion> the dash man page is a reasonable thing to program to, although not perfect
[06:53] <ogra> ltsp-build-client currently relies somewhat on bash stuff ...
[06:53] <Kamion> but it's a lot better than programming to the bash man page
[06:53] <Kamion> ogra: edubuntu 20060717.1 fixed
[06:53] <ogra> well, i'm an old abs-howto user :) i never programmed after manpages
[06:53] <ogra> Kamion, thanks
[06:54] <Kamion> I'd run away from all the howtos
[06:54] <Kamion> they are rarely written with an eye to portable shell, more with an eye to SHINY
[06:54] <ogra> well it was what i used to learn bash scripting ages ago ...
[06:55] <ogra> but indeed you see my code isnt bashism free now (in fact i ever cared before i saw dash the first time )
[06:56] <Kamion> http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2001/04/shell.html is also worth reading, written by a friend of mine; it's not specifically about portability but is generally worthwhile reading for shell programmers
[07:02] <Keybuk> also get a copy of Blinn
[07:02] <ogra> blinn ?
[07:08] <Keybuk> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0134514947/
[07:08] <ogra> ugh, dead trees
[07:09] <ogra> i even read my pratchetts on the laptop nowadays :)
[07:09] <ogra> but i'll get a copy ... )
[07:11] <mjg59> iwj: My fonts have changed in Epiphany again
[07:12] <iwj> mjg59: Oh ?
[07:14] <iwj> (I have to go soon; it's Monday and if I don't I'll miss my dinner ...)
[07:14] <mjg59> iwj: Back to blurry colour madness
[07:14] <mjg59> iwj: Sure, no urgency
[07:14] <iwj> Is it using Nimbus ?
[07:14] <iwj> (Easiest way to tell: select Nimbus from the font preferences and see what it does.)
[07:14] <iwj> Perhaps some of my fontconfig-related changes have been undone or not merged properly.
[07:15] <ogra> mjg59, on a lappie ? i noticed that subpixel rendering was disabled after an upgrade to edgy
[07:15] <ogra> just switching it on in the fonts ui solved it here
[07:18] <mjg59> iwj: Hm. Could be. The font preferences don't seem to let me change the main one that's being used
[07:18] <iwj> Ug.
[07:18] <Keybuk> Kamion: your friend wins a "useless use of $@ award"
[07:18] <Keybuk> sfere$ for x in "$@"; do  echo "[$x] "; done
[07:18] <Keybuk> ...
[07:18] <mjg59> ogra: If subpixel rendering was disabled, I don't think I'd be seeing coloured blur
[07:18] <Keybuk> why not just "for x; do" :p
[07:18] <ogra> mjg59, thats how it looks on my screen ...
[07:19] <ogra> if i switch on subpixel rendering its crisp again
[07:20] <mjg59> ogra: If there's no sub-pixel anti-aliasing, then there is no coloured blurring
[07:20] <mjg59> iwj: Interestingly, it's not nimbus. Hrm.
[07:23] <Kamion> Keybuk: given that it's in a section entitled "Special Behaviour of $@", I think it's semi-justifiable
[07:23] <ogra> mjg59, well, then the ption in the font settings gui might be mis-named ... i can just tell waht i see here
[07:23] <Kamion> Keybuk: but you could always mail him and suggest he add a note
[07:23] <Keybuk> Kamion: I disagree ... a bad example, even when demonstrating a particular behaviour, is a bad example
[07:23] <Keybuk> people tend to copy and paste examples without reading the surrounding text
[07:23] <Kamion> then I repeat my second comment :)
[07:23] <Keybuk> cf. the famous "wrong example of wait()" in Stevens which has been copied into many UNIX programs and defended
[07:23] <Keybuk> I have just mailed him, actually
[07:23] <Kamion> ta
[07:24] <Keybuk> (Stevens gives an example of a SIGCHLD handler that calls wait() as a general example of the kinds of things you do in such handlers ... this handler has been used as the template for many a developer's handler
[07:25] <Keybuk> the problem is that it calls wait() only once ... when you in fact need to do it in a loop to consume all child processes, as you may have received more than one signal or had signals dropped as you were beginning processing of one)
[07:25] <Keybuk> he fortunately corrected the example in later books (UNP carries a correct one)
[07:30] <Kamion> Keybuk: urgh, speaking of dodgy wait code, look at /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/apt/progress.py and search for waitChild
[07:30] <Kamion> let's wait for children by SPINNING
[07:30] <Keybuk> *blink*
[07:31] <Keybuk> I can see why they've done that ... but ... eww
[07:31] <Kamion> what's wrong with read() and a signal handler
[07:31] <Keybuk> I'd select() on an empty list ;)  but yeah, same thing
[07:33] <mdz_> fabbione: that isn't what I mean; for example, is ubuntu-desktop on sparc installable?  are the livefses building?
[07:34] <Kamion> Keybuk: actually select() is indeed better because the reason it spins is that (in my case) read() is immediately returning EAGAIN
[07:37] <Kamion> -> bug 53282
[07:37] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53282 in python-apt "InstallProgress.waitChild spins if read fails immediately" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53282
[07:43] <ogra> hmm, intresting
[07:44] <ogra> that daily iso rsync had only changes on ppc
[08:10] <ogra> ARGH
[08:10] <ogra> Unknown terminal: bterm
[08:11] <ogra> where does that come from in the installer ???
[08:12] <sitontony> i have a suggestion
[08:14] <sitontony> i have a suggestion for the developement
[08:15] <Keybuk> Kamion: I guess the Debian BTS LDAP gateway is down atm?
[08:24] <pitti> Kamion: sudo still purges if root once had a password which was then locked with passwd -l root
[08:25] <pitti> Kamion: so I'd like to fix the prerm to check whether getent shadow root *starts* with ! instead of checking whether it is equal to !
[08:25] <pitti> Kamion: are you fine with that?
[08:25] <fabbione> mdz_: no i didn't check because it was higher priority to finish other stuff. Also sparc desktop for knot-1 can be broken. It's not a regression and there for not so important
[08:34] <pitti> Mithrandir: ok to upload a new sudo with the env hanling fix Kamion needs for ubiquity? I also fixed a bashism and a bug in the prerm
[08:34] <fabbione> pitti: openais with your requested changes is up
[08:35] <pitti> thanks
[08:35] <fabbione> pitti: it's only waiting your magic touch to enter main
[08:35] <fabbione> pitti: so that i can unleash the new r-h-c-s
[08:35] <pitti> fabbione: -ENOMAGIC here
[08:35] <fabbione> pitti: and transit lvm2 to the new locking manager
[08:35] <pitti> fabbione: that requires ftpmaster powers (Kamion/Keybuk)
[08:35] <fabbione> pitti: well you still need to tell ftp-master to go ahead :)
[08:35] <pitti> fabbione: anyone can, they'll look at the MIR queue
[08:36] <pitti> Kamion, Keybuk: for the record, openais is good for main
[08:37] <pitti> grr, I'm a fool, I just locked myself out of sudo
[08:38] <fabbione> pitti: you can use one of the unpatched exploit :P
[08:38] <pitti> heh, good idea :) the prctl one should work
[08:38] <fabbione> yeah they actually do.. i think elmo knows :P
[08:40] <pitti> fabbione: the advantage of the prctl one is that the exploit works fine on all arches; that's pretty rare usually :)
[08:46] <Mithrandir> pitti: please
[08:46] <ogra> xorg postinst fails
[08:51] <Burgwork> ajmitch, do you have a blog for your network auth stuff?
[08:52] <Burgwork> Petaris, I just asked him
[08:52] <Petaris> Burgwork: Ok
[09:04] <ogra> Jul 17 18:45:04 in-target: Setting up xserver-xorg (7.0.22ubuntu5) ...
[09:04] <ogra> Jul 17 18:45:05 debconf: Obsolete command TITLE Configuring xserver-xorg called
[09:04] <ogra> Jul 17 18:45:08 in-target: xserver-xorg postinst warning: not updating /etc/X11/X; file has been
[09:04] <ogra> Jul 17 18:45:08 in-target:    customized
[09:04] <ogra> Jul 17 18:45:08 in-target: [: 31:
[09:04] <ogra> Jul 17 18:45:08 in-target: ==: unexpected operator
[09:04] <Keybuk> BASHISM!
[09:04] <ogra> ideas anyone ? i have no clue what that should tell me ... but it breaks edubuntu installs
[09:05] <ogra> *sigh*
[09:05] <jdub> :o
[09:05] <ogra> funnily i cant find any == in there
[09:05] <Mithrandir> ogra: I think Colin fixed that later today.
[09:05] <ogra> nope, its the recent package
[09:06] <ogra> it installs fine (even though it shows the error) in the normal system ... but breaks ltsp chroots
[09:06] <sladen> s/==/=/
[09:08] <ogra> i would have sworn there is no == in that file at all .. but i just found it :D
[09:08] <ivoks> why do we have /var/lock and /dev/shm mounted as tmpfs with default size (each is half of RAM), and every user can write in those dirs
[09:10] <Keybuk> ivoks: why does it matter?
[09:10] <Keybuk> any user can malloc() the equivalent size anyway
[09:10] <Keybuk> it's just page cache
[09:11] <ivoks> i know, but...
[09:11] <ivoks> do we really need 256MB for /var/lock? :)
[09:11] <Keybuk> no, you could always add an appropriate limiting option in /etc/fstab if you needed it
[09:12] <ivoks> sure... well, there's no harm in leaving it like this...
[09:12] <Keybuk> note that you can set this in /etc/default/tmpfs
[09:13] <Keybuk> (for /dev/shm, that is)
[09:17] <ogra> Mithrandir, o if i upload a bashism free package for xorg ?
[09:18] <ogra> *ok even
[09:18] <Mithrandir> ogra: can I look at the diff, please?
[09:18] <ogra> heh, sure
[09:19] <ogra> +++ /tmp/GfWNPqHI0J/xorg-7.0.22ubuntu6/debian/xserver-xorg.postinst.in  2006-07-17 21:13:09.000000000 +0200
[09:19] <ogra> @@ -383,7 +383,7 @@
[09:19] <ogra>
[09:19] <ogra>    # Set a sane monitor id default if probe fails
[09:19] <ogra>    if [ -z "$MONITOR_IDENTIFIER" ] ; then
[09:19] <ogra> -      MONITOR_IDENTIFIER=="Generic Monitor"
[09:19] <ogra> +      MONITOR_IDENTIFIER="Generic Monitor"
[09:19] <ogra> and a changelog entry
[09:19] <ogra> Mithrandir, ^^
[09:21] <Mithrandir> that's not even a bashism.  It's just illegal shell.  Looks good to me.
[09:22] <ogra> i wonder if it finishes before all kernel builds :)
[09:28] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  utrace?
[09:28] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-cvs-commits/2005-October/msg00448.html as well.
[09:36] <pitti> bluefoxicy: that looks useful, thanks for digging it out
[09:37] <tseng> bluefoxicy: i met that jjohnson guy 2 years ago
[09:37] <tseng> with russel
[09:39] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  yeah, also <drow> you do know other people have written code to automatically attach gdb to things, right?  Last time I looked, gnome and kde could do it. <DannyB> drow: it's not good unless you've written it yourself <DannyB> don't you know anything
[09:42] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  interesting.  BTW mdz wants to put the libgcrypt11 update into dapper-backports instead of dapper-updates.
[09:42] <tseng> bluefoxicy: er, ok.
[10:12] <Kamion> Keybuk: BTS LDAP> no idea, sorry, I've never really followed that
[10:12] <Kamion> ogra: export TERM=linux and get on with your life :)
[10:12] <Kamion> ogra: the installer uses a terminal called 'bterm' and unfortunately not much else really understands that terminal type
[10:12] <ogra> Kamion, hmm, but why does it do that suddenly ? it worked before
[10:12] <Kamion> pitti: sudo.prerm> sounds reasonable
[10:13] <Keybuk> Kamion: I did a BeautifulSoup version instead -- cf. ubuntu-archive
[10:13] <Mithrandir> Kamion: what bts ldap thing?
[10:14] <Kamion> ogra: while that MONITOR_IDENTIFIER fix was correct, it's not what the warning was about
[10:14] <Kamion> Mithrandir: there's an LDAP gateway to bugs.debian.org which aba (IIRC) wrote
[10:15] <Mithrandir> Kamion: oh, that's down pending the cronjobs on merkel being reenabled.
[10:15] <ogra> Kamion, whats it then ? i didnt understand it
[10:15] <Mithrandir> AIUI
[10:15] <Kamion> ogra: just some stuff complains about a $TERM it doesn't understand, that's all; various things have warned about it in rescue mode for years
[10:15] <Kamion> Mithrandir: sounds plausible
[10:15] <Kamion> ogra: well, I don't know yet or I'd have said :)
[10:15] <ogra> Kamion, ok, i'll add a TERM=linux to the top of the ltsp-build-client script, even i find it weird that it always worked until now
[10:17] <Kamion> ogra: you didn't give me any context about where the "Unknown terminal" message was coming from before now
[10:17] <Kamion> you should check what you're using that's trying to open a terminal; nothing in ltsp-build-client should be trying to talk to the terminal surely
[10:17] <ogra> Kamion, well, from xserver-xorg prostinst ...
[10:18] <Kamion> the unknown terminal message is coming from xserver-xorg.postinst?
[10:18] <ogra> ltsp-build-client is supposed to fail if the second stage install (xorg and ldm) in the chroot fails
[10:18] <ogra> yes
[10:18] <Kamion> I've found the == bashism; it's in xresprobe. fixing
[10:18] <ogra> i have an error with configuring xorg and xserver-xorg failed
[10:19] <ogra> ah
[11:23] <Kamion> world conspiring against me. now apt is behaving weirdly.


[00:17] <rick_h_> jcastro_: need a jigsaw, chop saw, or table saw? clearing out some unused tools
[00:22] <dzho> rick_h_: would you be inclined to offer them to a hackerspace?
[00:25] <rick_h_> dzho: oh hmm, hackerspace. Need a table saw, chisels, and such as well? /me is trying to sell of tools I don't use to get a new bandsaw.
[00:26] <dzho> rick_h_: I don't know if there are any in your area that are interested in buying, just thought I'd represent that possibility for a moment :-)
[00:26] <dzho> hacker/makerspace might be a good filter for targetting to find buyers, at least.
[00:27] <rick_h_> yea, I'm trying to sell to my woodworking group. But by being in the group you tend to have this stuff so the basic tools don't seem to sell well
[00:30] <rick_h_> dzho: so you thinking i3? Or another group you were thinking of?
[00:30]  * rick_h_ should look at his list membership. Was following one of the groups a while back
[12:04] <rick_h_> morning
[12:05] <brousch> ug
[12:06] <rick_h_> yea, with you there
[12:17] <brousch> time to get coffee and head to work
[12:21] <snap-l> morning
[13:05] <rick_h_> http://twitpic.com/bgmtow ah monday
[13:17] <brousch> It's Cyber Monday!  One can dream
[14:19] <snap-l> Apress has all of their ebooks on sale for $15 each
[14:20] <snap-l> Picked up Foundations of Python Network Programming, and Pro HTML 5
[14:21] <brousch> So all caught up on your old books then?
[14:23] <snap-l> brousch: Remember what happened to Jiminy Cricket in Pinocchio? :)
[14:23] <brousch> No
[14:23] <snap-l> I can stop whenever I want.
[14:24]  * snap-l has come to accept he will have a backlog.
[14:25] <dzho> I just wait for new technologies to be replaced.
[14:25] <dzho> I find it saves me a lot of time.
[14:26] <snap-l> dzho: Yeah, that doesn't nearly work as well as one might think.
[14:26] <dzho> neither do I, I suppose ;-)
[14:56] <rick_h_> brousch: yea, but I'm pinching pennies to get  a big tool :)
[14:57] <rick_h_> heh, oreilly had a 50% thing off all books today I thought I saw
[14:59] <rick_h_> ok now this is interesting http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/11/26/google-acquires-wireless-internet-network-provider-icoa-for-400-million/
[15:00] <snap-l> btw: if someone is looking to pick up The Art of Computer Programming, InformIT has it 50% off
[15:00] <snap-l> Physical book, not the eBook
[15:00] <snap-l> If you don't have it already, now's a great time to stick it to Addison Wesley for supporting SOPA. ;)
[15:01] <snap-l> (subsidiary of Pearson)
[15:01] <snap-l> free ground shipping
[15:41] <brousch> snap-l:  http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/11/26/1456237/oreilly-discounts-every-ebook-by-50
[15:51] <snap-l> brousch: Yeah, I know. :)
[15:51] <snap-l> I thought you were about me not buying more books. ;)
[15:51] <brousch> hah
[15:51] <snap-l> Also, Sheldon (the comic) has one of their books on sale for $1 + shipping
[15:53] <snap-l> I've been buying the O'Reilly eBooks over the paper ones, because a) they get updated, and b) They load them into Dropbox for me. :)
[15:54] <rick_h_> bwuhahaha, charging mifi and headphones at the coffee shop...dual out batteries ftw
[15:55] <rick_h_> now hurry up and charge headphones...christmas music fml
[15:56] <snap-l> rick_h_: Yeah, it's my least favorite music
[15:59] <brousch> But what about OMc Xmas edition?
[16:00] <snap-l> Yeah, not sure I'm doing one this year. :)
[16:00] <snap-l> Will have to think about it. :)
[16:00] <rick_h_> Dec 1, then I'll pull out the trans siberian orchestra
[16:01] <snap-l> Blergh.
[16:01] <snap-l> I ODed on that to the point where I can't listen to that album
[16:01] <rick_h_> album? there's a ton
[16:01] <rick_h_> well, several
[16:01] <snap-l> I have the first one
[16:01] <snap-l> also the Savatage album that became TSO
[16:02] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Winter_Dead
[16:06] <snap-l> I don't mind TSO, but they're like the Manheim Steamroller of Metal
[16:07] <snap-l> Great musicians, and horribly overplayed during December
[16:07] <jjesse> well they haven't really came out w/ a new christmas album have them
[16:07] <jjesse> they
[16:07] <jjesse> i took my wife to a show twice and it was the same stuff, no idea why i would want to go again
[16:09] <rick_h_> so they've got 3 christmas albums, couple non-christmas I've gotten. I tend to only break them out for the holidays
[16:09] <brousch> LASERS
[16:10] <rick_h_> looks like a new small album came out end of oct
[16:10] <jjesse> night castle or whatever it is is pretty good, i listen to that at different times of year other than the holidays
[16:10] <rick_h_> yea, agree that come actual christmas it's put away, but at least it's better than a lot of the usual christmas stuff
[16:10] <snap-l> Yeah, I have no problem with them, just overdosed to the point where I'm not interested any more
[16:10] <rick_h_> jjesse: yea, I really dug the beethoven last night one
[16:11] <jjesse> agreed
[16:13]  * greg-g reads scroll back and responds to one thing:
[16:13] <rick_h_> greg-g: morning :)
[16:13] <greg-g> I do actually enjoy two of the 3 SOMA.fm xmas stations (xmas in frisko, and the new alternative one)
[16:14] <greg-g> don't know why I mixed spelling out the numbers and numerals there, (two vs 3), g'morn ;)
[16:16] <snap-l> greg-g: I may have to check those stations out
[16:18] <greg-g> the frisko one has some weird stuff every now and then, like, really weird
[16:18] <rick_h_> lol
[16:18] <greg-g> just like SF in general ;)
[16:18] <rick_h_> coming from greg-g that scares me
[16:19] <greg-g> :) I do like my weird
[16:33]  * snap-l is listening to Infections Grooves. Better than any Xmas music. ;)
[16:34] <jcastro_> those guys are awesome
[16:34] <snap-l> Their cover of Fame is killer
[16:34] <snap-l> Bah, Infectious Grooves
[16:51] <Blazeix> rick_h_: what's that speaker you were showing off at CHC?
[16:52] <rick_h_> speaker?
[16:53] <rick_h_> Blazeix: ^
[16:53] <Blazeix> yeah, a couple months ago, it was some sort of cylindrical usb speaker, or maybe wireless
[16:53] <snap-l> The Bluetooth speaker
[16:53] <rick_h_> ah, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007OLJDZG/ref=wms_ohs_product
[16:53] <rick_h_> <3
[16:54] <Blazeix> ah, that's it, thanks
[16:54] <snap-l> Well, I went from wanting a book about Atari Inc: The Business of Fun, to really not caring so much because of their instistance on DRM on the ebook copy.
[17:01] <devinheitmueller> snap-l: I have the "Once Upon Atari" movie.  Not bad.
[17:01] <greg-g> snap-l: pirate!
[17:02] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: Yeah, I picked up the VHS from HSW at a con
[17:03] <snap-l> greg-g: Yeah, I'm a filthy pirate hippie
[17:03] <devinheitmueller> Ah, I was going to offer to loan it to you, but no need then.
[17:03] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: NP. Thanks. :)
[17:03] <greg-g> "loan"?! you're both pirates!
[17:03] <devinheitmueller> heh
[17:03] <rick_h_> ugh https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/273063716021497856 gets me going
[17:03] <snap-l> Got him to sign a Raiders of the Lost Ark cart for JoDee.
[17:03] <devinheitmueller> So is the library apparently then.
[17:04] <greg-g> devinheitmueller: in the UK, it is kinda, as in, they have to buy special "library copies" to lend out because their copyright law is busted. In the US we have the first sale doctrine
[17:04] <snap-l> rick_h_: Yeah, especially since it isn't true. :)
[17:04] <devinheitmueller> Yes, I am not in the UK though.
[17:04] <devinheitmueller> :-)
[17:04] <greg-g> rick_h_: anything that has the word zealot in it is worthless, no matter the source
[17:04] <greg-g> devinheitmueller: sure sure, just your random (C) trivia of the day ;)
[17:05] <devinheitmueller> Well, thank you then.
[17:05] <greg-g> You're welcome.
[17:05] <rick_h_> greg-g: yea, the webkit thing is the one that bugs me the most. and the fact that it ignores the whole system lock in crap. ugh!
[17:05] <rick_h_> but that's the goal, it's troll-bait
[17:05] <greg-g> zactly
[17:06] <snap-l> rick_h_: Never let the facts get in the way of perfectly good troll bait
[17:06] <snap-l> rick_h_: Sent a response to Popey correcting him for that tweet. ;)
[17:07] <devinheitmueller> People have argued that Samsung is largely just a consumer of OSS (and they do the bare minimum required to release the source code to their modified kernel).  However I can say first hand they are a *huge* contributor at least to the LinuxTV project.
[17:07] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: I had a Samsung Printer. The fact that it had Linux drivers was a huge plus to me
[17:07] <rick_h_> yea, in the end I don't care about their OSS contributions.
[17:07] <rick_h_> they sell devices, ones I can buy and do whatever the $%#@$# I want with
[17:07] <snap-l> Unfortunately the "I refuse to turn on after two years" was a bit of a let-down
[17:07] <rick_h_> now let's look at the other side...apple...riiiight
[17:10] <devinheitmueller> I'm just saying there tend to be two classes of corporate OSS:  those that consume OSS and do the bare minimum to comply with the GPL requirements, and those who actively engage with the community, create new contributions, and work to get their stuff merged upstream.
[17:11] <rick_h_> devinheitmueller: I think there's a third though coming out. The ones that comsume, modify, and kind of submit upstream on slightly diff terms.
[17:12] <rick_h_> at least I think how apple/google works with kthml/webkit is different than many other devs
[17:12] <devinheitmueller> "diff terms" meaning licensing?
[17:12] <rick_h_> well, just that not active, behind closed doors, with occassional dumps of code
[17:12] <rick_h_> though I think google/webkit are a bit cleaner on that end
[17:12] <greg-g> you mean android? ;)
[17:12] <rick_h_> I do mean android
[17:12] <rick_h_> but I think it's more broad than that
[17:12] <greg-g> :)
[17:12]  * rick_h_ looks in employer mirror some
[17:13] <greg-g> hahahaha
[17:13] <devinheitmueller> I can say firsthand that getting code actually *upstream* can be a huge exercise.  You're just trying to get something done, and in many ways the approach you take isn't the one the upstream maintainers want (not generic enough, doesn't take into account other use cases you don't care about, etc)
[17:13] <rick_h_> devinheitmueller: definitely agree. I've had several patches just sit and I get tired of trying to get them in
[17:13] <rick_h_> ty github fork and move on mode
[17:13] <devinheitmueller> Yup.
[17:14] <rick_h_> but it's more for business reasons in this 3rd group I think.
[17:14] <devinheitmueller> I'm wrangling with the VLC team this week.  I'm on my fifth attempt to get a relatively simple patch accepted.
[17:14] <rick_h_> dev in secret/together and then dump back to OSS to take/leave
[17:14] <rick_h_> ok, so maybe my idea of more than just the 2 distinct camps is a bit naive
[17:15] <rick_h_> but it sure seems there's more than consumers and producers
[17:19]  * greg-g nods
[19:14] <rick_h_> crap, this was interesting but now it's fake http://goo.gl/mtJqZ
[19:20] <snap-l> Wow, that's quite the stock jump
[19:20] <snap-l> $.0005 from $.0001
[19:21] <brousch> Nice job, rick_h_, lining some pump-and-dumper's pockets
[19:23] <rick_h_> woot
[19:23] <snap-l> https://twitter.com/tarasyoung/status/273110968123400193
[19:23] <snap-l> This is where I get cranky.
[19:23] <rick_h_> I bought 10,000 shares with my lunch money
[19:23] <rick_h_> woo cranky monday!
[19:24] <rick_h_> lol, at least @popey corrected the 'making webkit' crap
[19:25] <snap-l> Yeah, @popey realized his error pretty early on
[19:33] <rick_h_> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Postgres amen!
[19:44] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: OK if I reference you in a tweet?
[19:44] <devinheitmueller> Uh, sure.
[19:46] <snap-l> https://twitter.com/squeekyhoho/status/273150447852863489 < devinheitmueller
[19:49] <rick_h_> hah, chased him away
[19:49] <snap-l> Uh oh
[19:54] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: I fear I chased you away. ;)
[19:54] <devinheitmueller> No, I'm actually doing some router testing, which is intermittently kicking me off the Internets.
[19:55] <devinheitmueller> As a general rule, it's bad practice to use your main PC *through* a router you are actively developing code for.
[19:55] <snap-l> Heh
[19:56] <devinheitmueller> OTOH, openwrt is a pretty neat little project.
[19:57] <snap-l> I use Tomato myself, but I love these little firmware projects.
[19:59] <devinheitmueller> Yeah, I was able to port to a new platform over a long weekend.
[20:13] <snap-l> There are some days when SQL makes you feel like you have super powers
[20:14] <snap-l> as opposed to the other days where SQL makes you feel like you are undeserving of even a crayon to scrawl your blatherings.
[20:17] <jhansonxi> Try SQL through M$ Office sometime.  You'll be begging to at least get a crayon.
[20:18] <snap-l> We do not speak of MS Office and SQL in the same breath
[20:18] <brousch> It's all drag and drop
[20:18] <brousch> You don't even write queries
[20:19] <snap-l> I do love it when I create cartesian product that the MySQL server detects and kills, though
[20:19] <snap-l> that was fun.
[20:21] <jrwren_> wtf is SQL through office?
[20:21] <jrwren_> you mean access as a front end? its not that bad.
[20:21] <jrwren_> its terrible in the hands of an undereducated user, but very powerful in hands of a professional
[20:22] <jhansonxi> It may have improved in the last release or two but when I was working with it the SQL support was rather crippled.  Very few command supported.  SQL Server wasn't the problem, just Office.
[20:23] <jhansonxi> (and its broken drivers)
[20:23] <jhansonxi> OpenOffice.org was much better.
[20:29] <jhansonxi> I was responsible for inventory DB maintenance and generating bill-of-materials.  I used Excel for the reports because of a bug in OOo caused conditional formatting to be lost when a data range was updated from a DB.  I got out of that position when management decided to upgrade from SQL Server to Access (Jet or whatever).
[20:35] <jrwren_> ah, excel.
[20:35] <jrwren_> right tool for right job :)
[20:36] <jrwren_> wait, upgrade FROM SQL Server to Access ?
[20:37] <brousch> Access is the bizomb
[20:42] <jhansonxi> jrwren_: Yep.  The boss (very experienced Windows SE) replaced PeachTree accounting system with Great Plains.  GP did almost nothing he wanted but allowed to to customize it better.  He wanted to integrate the inventory DB with it and thought that accessing SQL Server from .NET was "too hard".  So the existing DB was deleted (no attempt to port the data) and a new one started using Access only.
[20:43] <jhansonxi> Several years of data wiped out and I knew how unstable the Access engine was in a multi-user environment.
[20:44] <jhansonxi> The fact that the SQL Server team had deprecated the engine development didn't deter him because the Office team forked it (because of some query function they couldn't live without).
[20:45] <jrwren_> GP?!?!  what year was it?
[20:45] <jrwren_> oh, and anyone who thinkgs accessing SQL Server from .NET is too hard, is foolish at best :)
[20:46] <brousch> mmmm, Great Plains
[20:46] <jhansonxi> About 5 years ago (GP is Dynamics now)
[20:47] <brousch> I long for Great Plains. It was so much easier to query than this clusterfuck called Quickbooks
[20:47] <jrwren_> QB is a nightmare.
[20:47] <jrwren_> but all of them sucking so badly suggests the market is ripe for the plucking :)
[20:48] <brousch> The problem is no one _wants_ to create accounting software
[20:48] <jrwren_> exactly.
[20:48] <jrwren_> its not a fun place to be in software dev.
[20:48] <jhansonxi> Today, if I needed an inventory control system I wouldn't waste time on anything that wasn't browser-based.
[20:48] <brousch> So the people making it are the ones who can't cut it in more fun jobs
[20:50] <jhansonxi> It's not bad job security if you can tolerate the environment: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1994-06-10/
[20:50] <jhansonxi> I've found accounting people to be the most paranoid of software changes.
[21:09] <jrwren_> are there browser based inventory control systems?
[21:43] <jhansonxi> jrwren_: Probably but I haven't looked in quite a while.  I'm not doing IT currently, just contract PCB design (electronics CAD).
[21:56] <brousch> I need to get all objects from a table for one thing, and a subset of them for another on the same page. Should I make two database calls or one and filter the subset myself?
[21:56] <brousch> Two calls is much cleaner
[21:57] <brousch> Hm, actually I need 3 calls sometimes
[22:05] <Blazeix> without knowing anything about your problem, i'd vote for grabbing them once, then filtering when you need the subset
[22:07] <brousch> I wonder if Django optimizes it automagically
[22:21] <rick_h_> make 3 calls, 3 db calls aren't that slow and keep them split.
[22:21] <rick_h_> test each seperately
[22:21] <rick_h_> if you can share a chunk then share it and have all three queries call the shared method
[22:21] <rick_h_> and if you hit a performance issue then make the first call a @cachedproperty kind of thing and then reuse it
[22:23] <jrwren_> only 1 db call per pageload allowed. :p
[22:23]  * rick_h_ looks at launchpad (admittingly slow) doing well into double digits ALL THE TIME
[22:23] <jrwren_> i'm just anti select N+1
[22:23] <rick_h_> https://launchpad.net/launchpad just did 68 queries in .62 of db time
[22:23] <jrwren_> as long as you don't have N+1, I'm happy.
[22:24] <jrwren_> i was j/k about 1 db call per pageload
[22:24] <rick_h_> yea, and if you've got three different reasons to query, you want to keep them apart and not relying on each
[22:24] <rick_h_> yea, I mean bookie is kept pretty much to 2-5 at max, but it's very simple
[22:24] <jrwren_> yes, async queries can be just as fast as the slowest query.
[22:24] <rick_h_> and everythign is ajax'd as you need it/api calls