[03:51] <smartboyhw> Noskcaj10, I will review your testcase branches post-lunch.
[03:52] <smartboyhw> rather, post-piano lesson...
[16:32] <jjohansen> \o
[16:32] <tyhicks> hello
[16:32] <mdeslaur> \o
[16:32] <jdstrand> hi!
[16:32] <jdstrand> #startmeeting
[16:32] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 17 16:32:56 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:32] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:32] <jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
[16:32] <jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[16:33] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
[16:33] <jdstrand> Stefan Bader (smb) provided debdiffs for precise-raring for xen. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Thanks!
[16:33] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
[16:33] <chrisccoulson> hi
[16:33] <jdstrand> I'll go first
[16:34] <jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
[16:34] <jdstrand> I will finish the preliminary install audit of the phablet image this week
[16:34] <jdstrand> I have some pending updates
[16:35] <jdstrand> and need to review sbeattie's deliverables for the month and plan for getting them finished since he is on holiday
[16:35] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
[16:35] <mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
[16:35] <mdeslaur> am currently testing an embargoed issue
[16:35] <mdeslaur> and will write a test for libraw
[16:36] <mdeslaur> will go down the list of updates after that
[16:36] <mdeslaur> that's pretty much it
[16:36] <mdeslaur> uh...who's usually after steve... tyhicks?
[16:36] <tyhicks> yep
[16:37] <tyhicks> I'm currently drafting an email to the apparmor list to push the dbus syntax discussions along
[16:37] <tyhicks> I hope that we can come to a decision on that and I can make the parser changes for that this week
[16:38]  * sarnold dons asbestos ..
[16:39] <jdstrand> so
[16:39] <jdstrand> with sbeattie out, I wonder if we can actually take a decision
[16:39] <tyhicks> I'll also be going through my todo list of trivial things that needs to be fixed/improved in the dbus and apparmor packages as we get closer to upstreaming those and sticking them in the archive
[16:39] <tyhicks> jdstrand: I expected more people to chime into your question on proposal 3 vs 4
[16:40] <jdstrand> me too :\
[16:40] <tyhicks> jdstrand: but, I feel like there's still a lean towards 3
[16:40] <tyhicks> which is sbeattie's proposal
[16:41] <tyhicks> That's it for me
[16:41] <tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
[16:41] <jdstrand> because that didn't happen and steve is on vacation, I don't think we can take a decision and complete that work item
[16:41] <jdstrand> wait
[16:41] <tyhicks> ah
[16:41] <tyhicks> sorry
[16:41] <jdstrand> before we get to jjohansen
[16:41] <jdstrand> jjohansen: opinion? ^
[16:42] <jjohansen> jdstrand: well likely not, but we will see how things go. I don't think steve cares so much about 3 vs 4
[16:42] <jdstrand> huh, 4 seems so radically different I would think there would be an opinion
[16:43] <jjohansen> but if we are leaning towards 3 and since it is his proposal modified, maybe
[16:43] <jdstrand> but I don't want to stall out for weeks either
[16:43] <jdstrand> my feeling is that as upstream, we shouldn't take the decision
[16:43] <jjohansen> jdstrand: don't worry I can throw enough fuel on the fire
[16:43] <jdstrand> jjohansen: I'm afraid of said fuel :P
[16:44] <jdstrand>  my feeling is that as upstream, we shouldn't take the decision without steve
[16:44] <jdstrand> but, for Ubuntu I think we should revise our stance on pushing a syntax that may change
[16:45] <jjohansen> I think that we will just have to push something that may change
[16:45] <jjohansen> but lets get it to where it likely won't
[16:45] <jdstrand> in others words, let's get as far as we can on the syntax as we can without steve (like tyhicks said), then push that into the archive (or at least the ppa) so that these code bits are in before feature freeze and getting some testing
[16:46] <tyhicks> I think that makes sense
[16:46] <jdstrand> then when he gets back, we can see what he objects to (if anything), then adjust before committing upstream. then after committing to upstream, do another upload to ubuntu
[16:47] <tyhicks> that's reasonable
[16:47] <jdstrand> mdeslaur, jjohansen: what do you think?
[16:48] <jjohansen> jdstrand: I think its the only thing we can reasonable do given the circumstance
[16:48] <mdeslaur> I didn't follow what the issue was, so I have no current opinion
[16:48] <jdstrand> ok, then let's plan on that
[16:48] <jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks
[16:48] <jdstrand> jjohansen: you're up
[16:48] <jjohansen> I'll be working on backporting apparmor for the phablet kernels, an email to push the syntax discussion along (or at least ignite the arguing again), hopefully release 2.8.2 and then back to working ipc
[16:49] <jjohansen> s/working/working on/
[16:49]  * jjohansen just wishes it was all working
[16:51] <mdeslaur> \o/ phablet kernels
[16:52] <jjohansen> thats it for me sarnold your up
[16:53] <sarnold> I'm in my happy place this week, though I've got some leftover packages from community to finish: stunnel4 (I want another two manual tests before shipping) and ruby-openid (no idea how to test, asking ckuerst for ideas..)
[16:54] <sarnold> the patch for ruby-openid looked simpled enough, it's probably fine even without a test, but just 'it loads' is a little unsatisfying.
[16:55] <sarnold> I'm looking forward t othrowing rocks at hornets's nests^W^W^W^W the upcoming dbus responses... I'm mostly happy with #3 but want to make sure that we're not missing something better.
[16:55] <sarnold> I'm hopeful for some patch review from jjohansen or tyhicks this week, but if not, I'll pick up an update
[16:56] <sarnold> I think that's it for me; chrisccoulson, you're up :)
[16:56] <chrisccoulson> w00t
[16:57] <chrisccoulson> so, last week we got a flash update, and i did some more work on our chromium API
[16:57] <chrisccoulson> i've scheduled a meeting tomorrow afternoon to discuss that btw :)
[16:57] <chrisccoulson> i shall be doing more work on that this week, and we'll likely get chromium published too (yay!)
[16:57] <jdstrand> sarnold: regarding options against #3-- not to worry, I'll be happy to shoot those down too
[16:57] <jdstrand> sarnold: :P (j/k ;)
[16:57] <sarnold> jdstrand: woo :)
[16:58]  * jdstrand hugs sarnold
[16:58] <sarnold> chrisccoulson: oh man, that's awesome. :)
[16:58] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: chromium updates! /me rubs his eyes
[16:58] <chrisccoulson> also, i'll get builds for next weeks firefox update before the end of the week
[16:58]  * jdstrand hugs chrisccoulson too :)
[16:58] <chrisccoulson> so it's going to be a fun end to the week ;)
[16:58] <chrisccoulson> thanks :)
[16:58] <chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
[16:59] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
[16:59] <jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
[16:59] <jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
[16:59] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lib3ds.html
[16:59] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tryton-server.html
[16:59] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libphp-jpgraph.html
[16:59] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/osc.html
[17:00] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/magics++.html
[17:00] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
[17:00] <jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
[17:05] <jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
[17:05] <jdstrand> #endmeeting
[17:05] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 17 17:05:33 2013 UTC.
[17:05] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-16.32.moin.txt
[17:05] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-16.32.html
[17:05] <sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
[17:05] <tyhicks> thanks
[17:05] <mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
[17:06] <jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
[17:07] <jdstrand> sure thing :)
[19:00] <bdrung> !dmb-ping
[19:00]  * barry waves
[19:00] <Laney> lo
[19:00] <tumbleweed> hi
[19:01] <tumbleweed> we have apologies from ScottK, so I guess I'm chair
[19:02] <tumbleweed> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board
[19:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun 17 19:02:03 2013 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[19:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[19:02] <tumbleweed> can someone else volunteer to chair if I have network trouble again / have to run off? I'll handle the minutes etc.
[19:02]  * barry can
[19:02] <tumbleweed> thanks
[19:02] <tumbleweed> #chair barry
[19:02] <meetingology> Current chairs: barry tumbleweed
[19:02] <tumbleweed> #topic Review of previous action items
[19:03] <tumbleweed> barry to send outcome of sweetshark ppu vote
[19:03] <barry> done
[19:03] <tumbleweed> everyone read and amend http://pad.ubuntu.com/dmb-ppu-membership-proposal, and sign up for the implementation tasks
[19:03] <tumbleweed> Laney: care to drive this?
[19:03] <Laney> rather micahg did if he's here
[19:03] <tumbleweed> ah, of course
[19:03]  * stgraber waves
[19:04] <stgraber> (sorry, just got out of another meeting, it's that kind of day...)
[19:04] <Laney> :(
[19:04] <Laney> ok, seems not
[19:04] <Laney> so I think we're all agreed on the principle
[19:05] <Laney> that we shouldn't always require membership contributions
[19:05] <Laney> err wtf
[19:05] <Laney> membership levels of involement from new developers
[19:06] <Laney> the remaining questions are about precisely where we should set the new boundaries
[19:06] <Laney> like:
[19:06] <Laney>  - which, if any, packagesets should this apply to?
[19:06] <Laney>  - should it be open to all PPU?
[19:07] <Laney> and there's questions about how to design the application procedure (should considering membership be implicit?)
[19:07] <barry> Laney: i wonder if we can start small and just apply it to ppu and not package sets (although there may be some overlap, but ignore that for now)
[19:07] <Laney> ah, I think it's non-controversial enough that we can deal with it all at once
[19:08] <Laney> and one thing I thought of is that we should probably say that all devs need to have signed the CoC I suppose
[19:08]  * bdrung nods.
[19:09] <tumbleweed> our membership-monitoring thing already enforces CoC for all uploaders IIRC
[19:09] <Laney> right, but that requirement is implicit because of membership
[19:09] <Laney> we just need to say it
[19:09] <stgraber> barry: I don't see much of a point to distinguish between PPU and packageset as the concerns at least for me are similar. e.g. I'd be oposed to give PPU to xserver-xorg to a non-member just as much as I'd to give xorg packageset rights to a non-member. Packagesets indeed are just a level of abstraction on top of PPU, so the two should be treated the same way.
[19:09] <micahg-work> I would think that CoC needs to apply to uploaders as well
[19:09] <Laney> i don't think it's a controversial suggestion - the smallest tweak of the lot of them really ...
[19:10] <Laney> let's take the packageset question
[19:10] <micahg-work> it's a standard for interaction with the community, not just a prerequisite for membership
[19:11] <Laney> I saw we just treat packagesets as a convenience aggregating PPU together
[19:11] <micahg-work> well, that's one type
[19:11] <Laney> but there are 'flavour' packagesets which are somewhat different
[19:11] <micahg-work> right, that's the other
[19:12] <tumbleweed> and, package sets that consist of many (or entirely of) seeded packages
[19:13] <micahg-work> umm...well, I see that as one of the two other cases
[19:13] <tumbleweed> they have a lot in common with flavour packagesets, without necessarily being flavour packagesets
[19:13] <micahg-work> tumbleweed, example pleasE?
[19:13] <micahg-work> flavor packagesets imply project level involvement
[19:13] <tumbleweed> core was mentioned in the discussion earlier. xorg?
[19:14] <stgraber> core, desktop-core, xorg, ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server, ...
[19:14] <stgraber> we have a few of those
[19:14] <micahg-work> core packageset isn't a packageset for these purposes IMHO, that would be core-dev
[19:14] <Laney> I can't imagine entertaining an application for the first two
[19:14] <Laney> not without other changes anyway
[19:14] <micahg-work> right
[19:14] <micahg-work> the last 2 are flavors
[19:14] <micahg-work> xorg has seeded content, but that's aggregate PPU IMHO
[19:15] <tumbleweed> and we'd be unlikley to give a new person upload access to it. But conceputally, it probably doesn't require membership
[19:15] <Laney> right
[19:16] <barry> well, one way it could work is that the general rule is membership is not necessary for ppu.  then we have a black list of packages for which membership *is* required.  then if any of those packages appear in a package-set, the set is also blacklisted.  it means the level of check/control is at the package level
[19:16] <Laney> haha
[19:16] <micahg-work> I'm not sure about which problem we're trying to solve here
[19:17] <bdrung> would having all main packages in the blacklist too restrict?
[19:17] <Laney> yes
[19:17] <tumbleweed> micahg-work: making it clear to applicants whether they need membership or not
[19:17] <micahg-work> If we are trusting them with upload rights for these important packages, we're inherently trusting them not to break stuff
[19:17] <micahg-work> tumbleweed, no, I mean the issue of packagesets like xorg requiring membership
[19:17] <tumbleweed> yeah, agreed with you
[19:18] <micahg-work> having membership shouldn't improve that "trust" any
[19:18] <Laney> Right, we're not lowering any technical requirements here
[19:18] <Laney> so if they know everything they need to to upload then I don't see any need to require s&s on top of that
[19:19] <micahg-work> and if we're worried someone's going to break the archive during a milestone or what not, we probably shouldn't be giving them upload rights in the first place
[19:20] <tumbleweed> ok, flavour packagesets?
[19:22] <micahg-work> flavor packagesets have project level scope IMHO and should require membership (in that we want flavors integrated into the main Ubuntu community and not islands amongst themselves)
[19:22] <tumbleweed> yeah, my feeling too
[19:22] <Laney> same
[19:22] <Laney> for the same reason we'll continue requiring it for motu/core-dev
[19:22] <tumbleweed> can we vote on this proposal, or is there anything else we need to hash out?
[19:22] <bdrung> which criteria do we want to use for requiring significant & sustainable contribution?
[19:22] <micahg-work> stgraber, how do you feel about all this?
[19:23] <stgraber> micahg-work: still not too happy about opening the possiblity of the DMB granting upload rights to critical packages without requiring membership. I know that the current DMB probably is reasonable about it, but I'm not thrilled about the documented new process being that open.
[19:24] <Laney> I guess I don't feel that membership is where concerns about individual developers are likely to be
[19:24] <Laney> it's going to be at their technical judgement
[19:25] <micahg-work> right, that's how I feel as well
[19:25] <stgraber> well, I personally tend to like people who have upload rights to packages installed by default on my system to have been around for at least a whole cycle
[19:25] <tumbleweed> I don't want non-member developers to be come a norm
[19:26] <micahg-work> stgraber, we can make being around a whole cycle a requirement without requiring membership (not requiring significant or sustained, just the time period)
[19:26] <tumbleweed> would we be prepared to limit this to entirely non-main package (-set)s ?
[19:26] <stgraber> so I'm happy to grant non-member PPU to some upstream dev maintaining their package in universe, but I'd prefer to have the process restricted in a way that ensures that
[19:26] <Laney> I think that any DMB the community has confidence in will be rigorous enough
[19:26] <stgraber> micahg-work: then I think I'd be happy with that
[19:27] <Laney> what is 'being around'?
[19:27] <Laney> time from first upload to application?
[19:27] <micahg-work> we already require understanding of the release schedule for upload rights
[19:27] <tumbleweed> being around a whole cycle, but not a member doesn't sound like a common scenario
[19:27] <Laney> indeed
[19:27] <micahg-work> Laney, well, either that or first contribution (bzr included)
[19:27] <stgraber> Laney: either first upload or testimonial from a current dev that the applicant has been anoying them for over 6 months
[19:28] <micahg-work> just being exposed to the release process
[19:31] <tumbleweed> how about if instead of requiring non-main, we added a sentence to the effect of: Upload rights to core (seeded) packages will require sustained experience in the project (usually meaning membership)?
[19:31] <bdrung> +1
[19:32]  * tumbleweed isn't convinced that membership from forums would make us happy about upload rights to xorg, though :P
[19:32] <Laney> fine, but I don't see the point in singling packages out like that
[19:32] <Laney> I'd rather make explicit that we'll require a level of trust that is appropriate for the packages in question
[19:32] <micahg-work> tumbleweed, right, that's the catch, you can get membership for a lot of different things
[19:32] <Laney> so nethack not so much, binutils perhaps a bit more
[19:33] <micahg-work> Laney, I think that's fair
[19:33] <Laney> which is of course what happens already
[19:33] <micahg-work> right
[19:33] <tumbleweed> Laney: the level of trust expectation is already there
[19:34] <tumbleweed> level of trust doesn't mean experience of release process, which is what stgraber seems concerned about
[19:34] <micahg-work> tumbleweed, it does to some extent
[19:34] <micahg-work> especially WRT seeded packages
[19:34] <micahg-work> it's one of the components
[19:34] <Laney> well it doesn't say "you have to have been around for X months" indeed
[19:34] <Laney> but the DMB has to convince itself
[19:35]  * Laney shrugs
[19:35] <micahg-work> I'm fine with explicit vagueness if it solves the problem
[19:35] <Laney> if this is what we need to move on then so be it
[19:35] <tumbleweed> clarity of our expectations would also be useful
[19:35] <tumbleweed> OK, so while we consider this. What's next
[19:35] <tumbleweed> mail final wording to TB for signoff?
[19:36] <tumbleweed> can we get a final wording now? or this this meeting not going to do it for us?
[19:36] <tumbleweed> we have an applicant to process, too
[19:36] <Laney> wording of what?
[19:36] <Laney> an announcement?
[19:37] <tumbleweed> the proposal, if we want their signoff
[19:37] <Laney> I guess just edit the pad that I started already to reflect what we decide now
[19:37] <tumbleweed> ok, I think we should move on now, we can revisit this later
[19:37] <Laney> then ask the TB to ack/nack it at their meeting
[19:37] <tumbleweed> remaining action item:
[19:37] <tumbleweed> laney to update DD-PPU process to say that any ubuntu-dev is eligible
[19:38] <Laney> yeah sorry didn't do that yet
[19:38] <tumbleweed> ok, carried
[19:38] <Laney> but we got an applicant through it anyway
[19:38] <Laney> so seems ok
[19:38] <tumbleweed> #topic Louis Bouchard's Contributing Developer application
[19:38] <tumbleweed> caribou: hi
[19:38] <caribou> Hello everyone
[19:38] <caribou> tumbleweed: o/
[19:38] <tumbleweed> caribou: please introduce your application
[19:38] <tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LouisBouchard
[19:39] <caribou> My name is Louis Bouchard
[19:39] <caribou> I've been working on Ubuntu as my day job for a bit more than 2 years noew
[19:39] <caribou> but started using ubuntu in 2006 with Edgy
[19:40] <caribou> I will not repeat what you can read on the Wiki page
[19:40] <caribou> I come from the dark side of proprietary softwarea long long time ago
[19:40] <tumbleweed> heh
[19:40] <caribou> I involvment with Ubuntu is mainly around bug fixing, SRU etc
[19:41] <caribou> I also do some mentored packaging on the debian side of things
[19:41] <tumbleweed> great to hear
[19:41] <caribou> Since my involvment has been regularly increasing with Ubuntu, I thought it was appropriate to apply for UCD
[19:42] <tumbleweed> I'm afraid I have to run off in a minute, but hopefully barry can continue chairing the meeting for me
[19:42] <tumbleweed> caribou: when do you expect to be applying for upload rigths?
[19:42] <caribou> most of my involvment is around Foundation packages, with a bit of work on the kernel side
[19:42] <caribou> I want to get more exposure with merges and also participate in PlusOne to get more experience
[19:42]  * barry takes a seat
[19:43] <barry> caribou: have you scheduled your plus-one yet?
[19:43] <caribou> no, not yet. I will need some hand-holding in that direction
[19:44] <caribou> but some of my colleagues have participated a few cycles already
[19:44] <caribou> so they can help
[19:44] <barry> caribou: it's a great learning experience
[19:44] <caribou> barry: that's what I heard, which triggered my interest
[19:44] <caribou> merging is also something I'm curious about.
[19:45] <caribou> I see packaging from the debian side of things only right now
[19:45] <caribou> though it's a rather small package
[19:46] <caribou> I also think that PlusOne will help me in may daily activities
[19:46] <caribou> anything else I can outline for you ?
[19:46] <bdrung> caribou: i saw that makedumpfile is arch restricted. is that intentional?
[19:47] <caribou> bdrung: there seems to be some issues currently with the ARM side of things
[19:47] <caribou> bdrung: there is an open Debian bug about it that needs my attention
[19:48] <caribou> bdrung: aside from that, I think that there is one specific PPC patch laying around that might explain it
[19:48] <bdrung> caribou: but shouldn't it work on all architectures (besides bugs)?
[19:49] <caribou> afaik makedumpfile do make some assumptions regarding specific architectures
[19:49] <caribou> bdrung: as it works in a kexec triggered kernel boot that is somewhat different from a regular boot environment
[19:50] <bdrung> ah, okay
[19:51] <caribou> bdrung: that might come from debian's inheritance as well, since I don't think we do specific changes to the package on Ubuntu
[19:51] <caribou> I see it listed for amd64, i386, ia64 and powerpc only on Debian
[19:52] <barry> caribou: thanks.  i think we're ready to vote
[19:52] <barry> #vote should caribou become an ubuntu contributing developer?
[19:52] <meetingology> Please vote on: should caribou become an ubuntu contributing developer?
[19:52] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[19:53] <bdrung> +1
[19:53] <meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
[19:53] <barry> tumbleweed extends a +1
[19:53] <barry> +1
[19:53] <meetingology> +1 received from barry
[19:53] <Laney> +1
[19:53] <stgraber> +1
[19:53] <meetingology> +1 received from Laney
[19:53] <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
[19:53] <micahg-work> +1
[19:53] <meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
[19:54] <barry> and scottk is absent today, so
[19:54] <barry> #endvote
[19:54] <meetingology> Voting ended on: should caribou become an ubuntu contributing developer?
[19:54] <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[19:54] <meetingology> Motion carried
[19:54] <barry> caribou: congratulations
[19:54] <caribou> barry: & everyone else, thank you very much
[19:54] <caribou> looking forward to see you again for the next step
[19:55] <Laney> \o/
[19:55] <barry> caribou: indeed!  enjoy the +1 :)
[19:55] <caribou> & all the work in the meantime
[19:55] <Laney> get on that sponsorin' train
[19:55] <caribou> Laney: will do
[19:55] <barry> we have no more applicants today
[19:55] <barry> #topic AOB
[19:55] <barry> anything else folks want to bring up today?
[19:56] <Laney> I don't know how we are carrying the PPU thing on
[19:56] <barry> Laney: i think we have to continue on the mailing list
[19:57] <Laney> ok
[19:58] <barry> if there's nothing else, i think we're done
[19:58] <barry> #endmeeting
[19:58] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun 17 19:58:38 2013 UTC.
[19:58] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-19.02.moin.txt
[19:58] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-17-19.02.html
[19:59] <Laney> thanks
[20:00] <caribou> thanks everyone & have a nice rest of the day
[20:01] <stgraber> thanks
[20:28] <tumbleweed> caribou: congrats :)
[20:58]  * ScottK wave belatedly.


[00:06] <rww> fyi, wwww in #ubuntu has been previously removed for attitude and !ot problems. I'm about to go afk, but someone should keep an eye on him.
[00:07] <IdleOne> will do
[00:40] <IdleOne> he had a point about why telnet is packaged
[00:40] <IdleOne> do people still use telnet ?
[00:40] <LjL> sure i do
[00:40] <Pici> telnet nethack.alt.org
[00:40] <rww> Bear in mind that LjL also uses PHP.
[00:40] <IdleOne> ok but you guys also know what your doing
[00:40] <ljl-telnet> hi
[00:40] <IdleOne> omg
[00:40] <IdleOne> kill it
[00:41] <IdleOne> before it grows
[00:41] <ljl-telnet> so what, should it not be packaged because some people don't know what they're doing?
[00:41] <rww> IdleOne: you're
[00:41] <IdleOne> yes mine
[00:41] <IdleOne> :P
[00:41] <IdleOne> thank you rww
[00:42] <ljl-telnet> mind you, i guess for all intents and purposes, netcat is better
[00:42] <rww> Someone file an LP bug to remove all telnetd from the archive and make transition packages for openssh-server
[00:42] <IdleOne> ljl-telnet: you have a good point
[00:42] <ljl-telnet> but telnet is sorta more standard i imagine *shrug*
[00:42] <Pici> telnet servers are useful if you don't want to require any sort of authentication at all.
[00:43] <ljl-telnet> like in telnet games!
[00:48] <mneptok> telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl
[01:17] <bazhang> IdleOne, wrong person
[01:18] <bazhang> wwww is 'st' known issue in the past
[01:57] <bazhang> sebikul, hi
[01:57] <IdleOne> stop scaring them
[01:58] <IdleOne> I got some nerve to talk
[05:15] <rww> Anyone around who has working Youtubes?
[05:22] <rww> nvm, tinyogged it. To my surprise, Irconis_Charbuur in -ot (aka a few other nicks) managed to link something that's not offensive :\
[05:22] <rww> (well, I didn't listen, just watched, but still.)
[05:24] <rww> hrm, maybe 'Non-descr' is just the default ident of some client I'm unaware of.
[05:45] <rww> ah, nope. same person. hrm.
[06:48] <Flannel> URL shortening is bad.  Mmmkay?
[06:49] <rww> but we need space to put a link about the freenode spam that we don't get because we have well-working countermeasures
[06:50] <Flannel> the topic now looks like a google advertisement, and I have no idea if I've already read these links or what.
[08:41] <rww> ubottu: tell ThatBum about notreally-#ubuntu-offtopic
[09:11] <elky> Mwa? I think the above needs a Bwa to be honest. And the wiping away of a tear.
[09:24] <Myrtti> OUR SOCIAL CHANNEL?!?!?!111
[09:24] <rww> iknorite
[09:45] <elky> I'm pretty sure that gloating about having "a direct line to freenode staff" is somewhat inappropriate...
[12:39]  * Hobbsee twitches
[16:49] <popey> @login
[16:49] <popey> @btlogin
[17:59] <IdleOne> LjL: do you think floodbot or similar could have the ability to temporarily set +f on a channel and forward user to the channel then remove the +F?
[18:00] <IdleOne> so ops could /msg bot forward nick #channel-loco
[18:00] <LjL> floodbots can't be on more than one given channel (aside from their own utility channels) to begin with
[18:00] <IdleOne> ok so a new bot
[18:00] <LjL> also, i strongly believe putting a bot in every loco would be a surefire way to make them all move out from the official channels
[18:01] <IdleOne> the channels could decide if they want the bot
[18:05] <tsimpson> if they wanted that, they could just set +f on the channel
[18:06] <tsimpson> LoCo channels are *far* less likely to be "attacked" in the same way #ubuntu was
[18:08] <Myrtti> jijojohn is on it again
[18:09] <IdleOne> well, I think it would be useful in some extreme cases of pebkac, some users just don't "get it" no matter how many times we give them the /join command
[18:10] <tsimpson> in cases like that, you can always poke someone in -irc or in the loco to come and help
[18:10] <tsimpson> not as elegant as automatic forwarding, but it's better than nothing :)
[18:10] <IdleOne> tsimpson: the most recent case he was told by 4 different users in his language and given the !es twice
[18:11] <tsimpson> that's a clear case where you should /remove then
[18:11] <IdleOne> I did
[18:11] <LjL> except once we used to be able to remove *and banforward*
[18:11] <LjL> then freenode decided they'd be fancy and stop that
[18:11] <tsimpson> probably because it was abused
[18:12] <LjL> oh so terribly abused
[18:12] <LjL> not like the channels it actually *was* abused on hadn't the option of setting +g or whatever it was
[18:12] <jussi> @reload Encyclopedia
[18:12] <tsimpson> !test
[18:12] <tsimpson> it's not broken :D
[18:13] <IdleOne> !fail
[18:13] <IdleOne> works the way it should
[18:14] <IdleOne> ubottu: fail is <reply> WAILZ!
[18:14] <IdleOne> guess not.
[18:14] <jussi> IdleOne: you are using that factoid wrong...
[18:14] <jussi> !fail | IdleOne
[18:14] <IdleOne> I did
[18:15] <tsimpson> IdleOne: we still need to set a few things up to get it working, but the code didn't blow-up, so things are going well so far
[18:15] <IdleOne> set what up?
[18:16] <jussi> @admin capability add IdleOne restricted-editor
[18:16] <IdleOne> restricted!?
[18:16] <tsimpson> IdleOne: see the minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCCouncil/TeamReports/10/December
[18:17] <IdleOne> I saw them
[18:17] <jussi> IdleOne: that should give you the ability to add factoids here but not enywhere else
[18:17] <IdleOne> ahh
[18:17] <jussi> Im using you as a guinea pig because you are here, active and have no rights
[18:17] <IdleOne> well thank you
[18:17] <tsimpson> ops on probation can edit factoid, but they should do in in here where others can review
[18:17] <tsimpson> that's all "restricted" means there
[18:18] <IdleOne> I'm still on probabtion?
[18:18] <IdleOne> -b
[18:18] <jussi> no... jst a guine pig :)
[18:18] <jussi> so test it out!
[18:18] <nhandler> IdleOne: So try adding a factoid in PM and then in here
[18:19] <IdleOne> !idleone is <reply> this is a test
[18:19] <nhandler> Well, that part worked
[18:19] <nhandler> ubottu: forget idleone
[18:19] <IdleOne> ubottu: forget !idleone
[18:19] <IdleOne> heh
[18:19] <nhandler> jussi, tsimpson: Looks good
[18:19] <tsimpson> technical guide to adding/editing: http://ubottu.com/devel/wiki/Plugins#Encyclopedia
[18:20] <nhandler> tsimpson: Do we have a factoid pointing to that ?
[18:22] <tsimpson> !search ubottu.com
[18:22] <tsimpson> !botdoc
[18:22] <nhandler> :)
[18:47] <Seveas> can the rockbox info please be removed from the !ipod factoid
[18:47] <Seveas> it's confusing people
[18:47] <LjL> !ipod
[18:49] <LjL> i think it just confused one mentally challenged person
[18:53] <a931bw> Hello
[18:53] <a931bw> i got banned from #ubuntu for forkbomb
[18:54] <IdleOne> correct
[18:54] <a931bw> but all i did is ask why it doesnt work
[18:54] <a931bw> i want to crash my pc with it
[18:54] <IdleOne> posting malicious commands is not permitted
[18:54] <LjL> don't you see that will result in *other* people trying and crashing *their* PCs?
[18:54] <IdleOne> and we don't help people crash their pc
[18:55] <a931bw> i did tell that its forkbomb
[18:55] <LjL> lots of people might not have a clue what a "forkbomb" is
[18:55] <Myrtti> and do you know how big percentage would understand what that even means?
[18:55] <LjL> #ubuntu is full of users of all sorts
[18:55] <a931bw> ok, ill promise i wont post commands like these in public
[18:56] <LjL> thank you
[18:56] <a931bw> Thank you for unban
[18:56] <a931bw> bye
[18:56] <a931bw> ill go crash my pc now
[18:56] <LjL> good luck...
[18:57] <Myrtti> please note that next time getting unbanned won't be as easy
[18:57] <IdleOne> nope it won't
[18:58] <a931bw> Myrtti ok, sorry
[19:11] <Myrtti> the what the hell
[19:11] <Myrtti> oh, right
[19:16] <knome> err, clean up your mouth girl
[19:16] <Myrtti> I find it disturbing when a person I have no recollection of ops up on #ubuntu
[19:16] <Myrtti> but checking channel access I guess it was ok
[19:17] <knome> maybe. :)
[19:17] <Myrtti> just scared me a bit there
[19:19] <Pici> please give me this operate
[19:21] <IdleOne> Pici: you must pass this examinated to get operate
[19:29] <Myrtti> OH HI HAY SIR
[19:29]  * Myrtti looks at the mailing list, facedesks
[19:36] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[19:38] <mneptok> i paid for 3 nose jobs and 2 septum alignments before i unsubscribed.
[19:55] <Myrtti> there must be some sort of a mass escape from the funny farm going on
[20:05] <mneptok> Myrtti: nobody bothered to pass me a napkin map or open my cell door  :(
[20:05]  * tonyyarusso giggles at mailing list
[20:07] <Myrtti> HI HAY tonyyarusso
[20:09] <tonyyarusso> Myrtti: Hei thar - can plz let operate this me?  I is unable process done.
[20:09] <maco> how do i do an ident ban?
[20:09] <maco> its not ?=foo anymore right?
[20:10] <Myrtti> no, just normal idents
[20:10] <Myrtti> I'd do *ident
[20:10] <maco> ok
[20:11] <Myrtti> most people IRC from a machine without the service running, so they get the squiggly tilde ~ in front of the ident
[20:11] <maco> well freenode says do ?ident
[20:11] <tonyyarusso> That reminds me - is it even possible to ignore unidentified people?
[20:11] <Myrtti> so * bypasses that
[20:11] <tonyyarusso> (as a bloc)
[20:11] <Myrtti> maco: that's one option, certainly
[20:12] <maco> it actually warns that you shouldnt do *indent because then if they have helloident itd catch that person too
[20:12] <maco> but ok ban set now. thanks :)
[21:12] <marienz> they're usually not useful bans if there's not an actual identd
[21:20] <rww> On a related note, I'm seeing people using more nick!*@* style bans recently. Not sure why, they don't seem useful to me.
[21:25] <nhandler> tonyyarusso: /ignore is client side, so it would depend on your client
[21:26] <tonyyarusso> nhandler: irssi.  The mask for it shouldn't vary by client though, would it?
[21:26] <nhandler> tonyyarusso: Well, it isn't really a mask to ignore.
[21:26] <tonyyarusso> rww: Sometimes you know a particular individual keeps the same nick even when banned.  I don't know the specific cases, but it happens.  *shrug*
[21:27] <tonyyarusso> nhandler: It used to be possible back on dancer.
[21:27] <nhandler> tonyyarusso: You could use umode +R however
[21:27] <rww> Right, but looking through the relevant logs, I don't think that's what happened. *shrug*
[21:27] <nhandler> However, that only is for PM
[21:27] <tonyyarusso> nhandler: I was hoping for channel-specific.
[21:30] <marienz> dancer let you do a per-channel per-user ignore of unidentified users? I don't remember that feature
[21:30] <marienz> (you can quiet unidentified users, but that's not what you meant, right?
[21:31] <nhandler> Although, being able to use extbans in /ignore would be rather useful ;)
[21:31] <nhandler> Now to find someone to script that
[21:31] <marienz> ick extbans
[21:31] <rww> extbans are <3
[21:32] <tonyyarusso> marienz: dancer had something in the hostmask indicating identification status, n= vs. i= or something.
[21:32] <marienz> can't do that one particularly sanely on this ircd
[21:32] <rww> tonyyarusso: that was whether they were running an identd, not whether they were identified
[21:32] <marienz> tonyyarusso: that's not identification status. That tells you if they're running an identd or not.
[21:32] <LjL> tonyyarusso: that tells you about whether they're "identified" by an identd
[21:32] <tonyyarusso> oh
[21:32] <LjL> nothing to do with their nickserv status
[21:32]  * tonyyarusso doesn't understand the difference
[21:32] <rww> tonyyarusso: identified means identified with nickserv. identd means... well, google it.
[21:32] <marienz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ident is pretty good
[21:33] <marienz> the really short version is that ident is meaningless on the kind of single-user box almost everyone uses these days
[21:34] <tonyyarusso> bother
[21:34]  * rww considers setting up identd to return "tonyyarusso" on his box for demonstration purposes
[21:34] <tonyyarusso> hrm.  Well, format_identify has a way of checking nickserv status - would be interesting to see an extension of that for ignores.
[21:35] <nhandler> It probably wouldn't be too hard to add something like that to trigger.pl
[21:35] <marienz> what format_identify does is very slightly different: it also shows you as unidentified if you're on a nick not grouped to the account you're identified to
[21:35] <marienz> if you do that you *can* join +r channels and talk in +q $~a channels
[21:36] <marienz> rww: extbans are <3, but there's no clean way of asking the server what its extbans mean or if an extban matches an arbitrary user. Services already has a duplicate implementation of a bunch of extban logic to work around that, doing the same in clients seems icky
[21:46] <k-rad> am i literally permanantly banned from #ubuntu-offtopic ?
[21:59] <Flannel> k-rad: that's unlikely.  What makes you think that?
[21:59] <k-rad> because i was banned ages ago, and i still cannot get in
[21:59] <Flannel> k-rad: That's because bans don't automatically expire
[22:00] <k-rad> does that mean that i must wait more time before being allowed in ?
[22:01] <Flannel> k-rad: No, "waiting more time" would fall under the "bans have an expiration" (which they don't) category.  Instead, you need to come here and works towards a resolution of your ban (you're already halfway done!)
[22:02] <k-rad> i resolve never to say that which i said that got me banned even though i believed it
[22:02] <k-rad> what else would you have me do ?
[22:03] <LjL> !guidelines
[22:03] <LjL> !coc
[22:03] <LjL> i'd like you to read those and say whether you're prepared to respect them
[22:04] <k-rad> many people there broke the CoC
[22:04] <LjL> that's starting with the wrong foot
[22:04] <LjL> i thought we were talking about your ban and your respect of the CoC
[22:05] <k-rad> i'm sorry you are that sensitive
[22:05] <k-rad> yes i respect the CoC
[22:07] <k-rad> i respect the CoC
[22:08] <LjL> hopefully you'll respect the guidelines too
[22:08] <LjL> it's not up to me to remove your ban though
[22:08] <k-rad> yes i agree with the irc guidelines
[22:13] <tonyyarusso> "I'm sorry you are that sensitive" is what's known as a "non-apology".
[22:14] <k-rad> i apologize that he was hurt that many people other than me broke the CoC without any effect.  perhaps it is myself that is hurt, i'm sorry for responding in that manner.
[22:16] <k-rad> i apologize
[22:17] <Flannel> k-rad: And you'll follow the IRC guidelines in the future?
[22:17] <k-rad> yes i will
[22:17] <Flannel> k-rad: And, since this came into question in the logs, you won't try to get around a ban if you should ever be banned in the future?
[22:18] <k-rad> no i will not.  i did not intentionally try and get around a ban.  i had another nick i wanted to use.
[22:18] <Flannel> k-rad: Alright.
[22:18] <k-rad> one that i paid for a long time ago
[22:19] <k-rad> and i had been around freenode elsewhere with that nick
[22:19] <Flannel> k-rad: I have removed your ban from #ubuntu-offtopic, please join and say something there now to verify I haven't missed anything.
[22:20] <Flannel> k-rad: Alright, perfect.  Anything else I can help you with today?
[22:21] <k-rad> no.  thank you
[22:21] <Flannel> k-rad: Have a nice day.
[22:51] <Flannel> !rt
[22:53] <Flannel> Is it no longer included in studio by default?
[22:56] <LjL> i think i heard it'd not
[22:56] <nhandler> Read the top of the wiki page
[22:57] <nhandler> The -preempt and -rt kernels are no longer being developed due to lack of support. Focus has instead turned to the -lowlatency and -realtime kernels, particularly for the the release of Ubuntu 11.04 Natty Narwhal. The long-term goal is to have -lowlatency in the official Ubuntu repositories, while maintaining -realtime in a dedicated PPA.
[22:58] <Flannel> nhandler: That'd be for 11.04, what about 10.10?
[22:58] <LjL> that's interesting considering JACK doesn't even really work without -rt :\
[22:58] <Flannel> Oh, there it is.
[22:58] <Flannel> As of this writing, there are no alternative kernels (including -realtime and -lowlatency) available for Maverick Meerkat in either the official repositories or any Ubuntu Studio recommended repositories (such as that maintained by Alessio Igor Bogani). It is recommended that you use the default -generic kernel with Maverick.
[22:58] <Flannel> Also, that's a poor wikipage to link to, is there nothing better?
[22:59] <LjL> the help.ubuntu.com one?
[22:59] <Flannel> the w.u.c is bad, I just found a h.u.c one, yeah.
[22:59] <Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel
[23:00] <LjL> "found" uh? :P
[23:00] <Flannel> What?
[23:00] <LjL> it's the first line of the w.u.c. one. in bold.
[23:00] <Flannel> oh?
[23:00] <Flannel> Well, I found it by searching h.u.c, so there.
[23:30] <IdleOne> op up, services are going down and you can be sure the trolls are aware
[23:36] <rww> Not like they gave them enough advance warning to plan something ;P
[23:36] <IdleOne> true
[23:50] <rww> Services are back, looks like.


[09:58] <daxroc> Morning all
[10:00] <czajkowski> Aloha
[10:03] <ebel> morning
[10:04] <czajkowski> how are we all doing ?
[10:04] <slashtom> morning
[10:14]  * ebel has tea!
[10:14] <ebel> wonderous tea!
[10:20] <slashtom> is ebel awake now?
[10:20] <ebel> slashtom: moreso
[10:20] <czajkowski> tea makes the day all good
[10:29] <slashtom> i've just been told that i'm on the list for a new laptop
[10:30] <ebel> yay!
[10:31] <czajkowski> whoo
[10:33] <slashtom> i already have 2 on my desk
[10:33] <slashtom> soon i will be king of my cubicle!
[11:37] <ebel> God FG are rubbish at the web
[11:37] <terran> did you play their platformer
[11:39] <czajkowski> that annoying game from hell
[11:51] <czajkowski> http://www.lczajkowski.com/2011/02/23/ubuntu-global-jam-coming-soon/
[11:54]  * tdr112 thinks czajkowski copyed her email into a blog post
[11:54] <czajkowski> I did
[12:00] <czajkowski> tdr112: I have a lot of mails to get out these days
[12:00] <czajkowski> one needs to do a bit of making my life easier!
[12:05] <tdr112> cztab notting wrong with that
[13:17] <czajkowski> tdr112: you free?
[13:17] <czajkowski> need someone to test something for me on Ubuntu
[13:17] <czajkowski> https://one.ubuntu.com/music/l/2226574/0
[13:17] <czajkowski> can someone log into Ubuntu one
[13:17] <czajkowski> and see if you can search for music and even buy a song?
[13:21] <ebel> czajkowski: not available to paddies
[13:21] <ebel> "This song is not available to buy from the Ubuntu One Music Store in your country. Sorry!"
[13:22] <ebel> (Although I haven't set up an ubuntu one account, i'm not logged in and i've never bought music from it, so it /miiight/ be different if you are logged in)
[13:22] <czajkowski> ebel: but you can get to one.Ubuntu.com
[13:22] <czajkowski> just your launchpad ac to sign in
[13:24] <ebel> czajkowski: no change after i login & signup to ubuntu one
[13:25] <czajkowski> hmmm
[13:25] <czajkowski> so logging a bug
[13:25] <ebel> I think it's intentional
[13:25] <ebel> ish
[13:25] <ebel> They had to licence it from the big music labels
[13:26] <czajkowski> ireland uk laws differ it seems
[13:26] <ebel> I think $ETHNIC_GROUP_1 gets music from all 4 big labels
[13:26] <ebel> $ETHNIC_GROUP_2 can get it from 2 labels.
[13:26] <czajkowski> Ireland falls under EU
[13:26] <czajkowski> so we get 2 of the 4 big labels
[13:26] <czajkowski> UK differs from UK
[13:26] <ebel> and $ETHNIC_GROUP_3 can get creative commons licence.
[13:26] <czajkowski> UK differs from EU
[13:26] <ebel> It's per country, not per EU alas.
[13:27] <czajkowski> ebel: eh no,
[13:27] <czajkowski> there seems to be a massive difference in what I can buy when in UK and what I can buy in EI
[13:28] <ebel> yep, that's the music labels/companies for you
[13:29] <slashtom> this is why piracy wins
[13:29] <slashtom> you get a better product
[13:31] <ebel> I think canonical (?) or 3digital (the music company) would have to do deals in all these countries with all these music companies in order to sell in ireland
[13:31] <ebel> so they only do the big ones at first.
[13:31] <ebel> piracy FTW
[14:25] <ShaneM> slashtom: Piracy wins because people refuse to give customers what they want and instead tell them what they want.
[14:25] <ShaneM> IMO anyway
[14:32] <ebel> Pirated content is better from a customer point of view.
[14:33] <ebel> How common now is it for films to come out much later in europe?
[14:37] <ShaneM> ebel: No idea, I stopped buying movies ages ago.
[14:37] <ShaneM> I haven't watched anything in like a year :P
[14:39] <ebel> Avatar was released at almost the same weekend everywhere (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499549/releaseinfo) whereas there was about a month difference in when Titanic was released (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120338/releaseinfo)
[14:40] <ebel> The Lion King (1994) was released in IE ~3 months after US (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110357/releaseinfo)
[14:40] <ShaneM> Haha
[14:40] <ShaneM> Well be happy you don't live in central Europe
[14:41] <ShaneM> Even later I would assume since it needs to be translate
[14:41] <ShaneM> d
[14:42] <ebel> The reason we get films in Ireland the same time as USA is because of film piracy.
[14:42] <ebel> It's great!
[14:42] <czajkowski> :S
[14:49] <czajkowski> http://imgur.com/ZyeCO  *grin*
[14:52] <ShaneM> Haha "This is flower pot"
[15:11] <Belserusk> In Ubuntu 'Users and Groups' why would someone need to add themselves as a member of their own group?
[15:13] <czajkowski> Belserusk: what do you mean
[15:14] <czajkowski> where are you seeing this
[15:14] <ebel> Moslty unneeded
[15:14] <ebel> You know about unix users  & groups and the file permissions?
[15:14] <czajkowski> Belserusk: ahh on the machine
[15:14] <ebel> You might have a user 'ebel', and a group 'ebel'.
[15:15] <ebel> And technically the user ebel is in the group of ebel
[15:15] <ebel> However if it was a shared machine, you might have a group for "students" or "staff"
[15:15] <ebel> so 'ebel' would be in the 'staff' group or something.
[15:17] <czajkowski> nods
[15:18] <Belserusk> ebel, since the user ebel has user privalges - I don't see the need for him to be a member of group ebel. Although I do see how he could be a member or 'staff' or 'students'
[15:18] <ebel> if you remove the user from the group things will mostly just work
[15:19] <ebel> But you have to have a 'primary group' which under modern linux tradition is that this is the same as your username
[15:19] <ebel> And you are a member of that group,.
[15:19] <slashtom> all files and directories are assigned to a user and a group - so your own personal files must belong to your user and *your* group
[15:23] <Belserusk> slashtom, But I have this virtualbox ubuntu setup. It has a user named'ubuntu' and in this image that user is not part of group 'ubuntu' http://imgur.com/XCnMG
[15:29] <Belserusk> slashtom, well?
[15:30] <Belserusk> ebel, could you shed light on this/
[15:30] <Belserusk> ?
[15:30] <ebel> Belserusk: what does "id" on the command line say
[15:31] <Belserusk> ebel, $ id
[15:31] <Belserusk> uid=1000(ubuntu) gid=1000(ubuntu) groups=1000(ubuntu),4(adm),20(dialout),24(cdrom),46(plugdev),111(lpadmin),119(admin),122(sambashare)
[15:31] <ebel> There you go, you're in the group ubuntu and ubuntu is your primary group
[15:32] <ebel> it says gid=XXX for the primary group
[15:32] <ebel> groups=XXXX are the other groups
[15:33]  * daxroc pemissions are fun
[15:33] <daxroc> *permissions :D
[15:36] <Belserusk> ebel, is the group 'ubuntu' in the image = uid=1000(ubuntu)?
[15:36] <daxroc> Anyone have problems with java vm lately ?
[15:36] <ebel> Belserusk: yes
[15:36] <ebel> groups have a name 'ubuntu' and a number '1000'
[15:37] <czajkowski> Belserusk: I think the confusion is you've have them the same name
[15:37] <czajkowski> which isn't helping you
[15:37] <czajkowski> Group Ubuntu users: Ubuntu users would be more clearer
[15:37] <daxroc> more /etc/group
[15:37] <Belserusk> czajkowski, I agree.
[15:37] <Belserusk> ebel, uid vs gid? What do they stand for?
[15:37] <daxroc> user id , group id
[15:38] <ebel> user id and group id resp.
[15:38] <Belserusk> resp. ?
[15:39] <Belserusk> sorry, i misread
[15:39] <Belserusk> Thank you ebel
[15:39] <ebel> respectively :)
[15:39] <Belserusk> ^_^
[15:39] <ebel> when you go to that page your system will list all the groups on that system, and then give that as a list
[15:39] <ebel> that's why you see the 'ubuntu' group there
[15:43] <Belserusk> ebel, You explain this very well.
[15:45] <czajkowski> ebel: makes a good teacher alright
[15:50] <Belserusk> czajkowski, do you use a standard username when you create a Linux VDI?
[15:50] <Belserusk> czajkowski, I will cease using the distro name as the username.
[15:56] <Belserusk> Later ebel. Bye.
[15:57] <ebel> :)
[19:16] <airurando> Good evening Ubuntu-ie
[19:16] <airurando> Anyone at UH Dublin yet?
[19:17] <airurando> I am running a tad late.
[19:17] <airurando> Should get there at about 19:45
[19:27] <tdr112> wont be in tonight i have to give a talk tomorrow on my fyp
[19:31] <airurando> tdr112: good luck with that.
[20:53] <lau1> missed my train should have gone for a POTD in Ubuntu hour :(
[21:17] <airurando> lau1 not to worry. Always next month.
[21:19] <lau1> missed the train by 10 15 secondes 1hour wait :s


[16:20] <qense> hello
[16:40] <tpfennig> hi all. is this the right place to talk about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ ?
[16:41] <newz2000> tpfennig: probably not
[16:41] <newz2000> that site is run by the ubuntu doc team
[16:41] <tpfennig> ok so what channel would that be?
[16:42] <newz2000> #ubuntu-doc
[16:42] <tpfennig> newz2000: thanks
[16:47] <tpfennig> newz2000: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryMarketing also #ubuntu-doc?
[16:48] <newz2000> tpfennig: no, unfortunately that's the Ubuntu Marketing Team
[16:48] <tpfennig> well about categories in this wiki
[16:49] <tpfennig> I found this and I guess more dont work due to moin wini syntax changes
[16:49] <tpfennig> like <<FullSearch>> does not give a list of pages any more
[16:49] <tpfennig> one has to enter the name of the category in ().
[16:50] <Volans> Hi newz2000 :) any news on the Start Page topic and the Mozilla/Canonical legal stuff?
[16:50] <tpfennig> and using FullSearchCached helps getting cpu usage down
[16:52] <emunkki> hi Volans
[16:52] <Volans> Hi emunkki
[16:52]  * tpfennig thinks Ubunut now has way too many irc channels....
[16:53] <newz2000> Volans: no, not yet
[16:55] <Volans> ok, so the intrepid start page will be the same of hardy?
[16:59] <newz2000> no word yet :-(
[17:01] <Volans> ah... because in this case I think that we can concentrate our efforts to the "automatization" of the translation of the start page using .po files on launchpad (knowing also if the right column should be translated or not)
[17:23] <newz2000> Volans: I'm up for that, that will be useful regardless of what we end up doing
[17:23] <newz2000> I've got to run an errand, will be back in about an hour
[17:23] <Volans> ok
[18:21] <jarlen> hey
[18:21] <jarlen> meeting tonight, right?
[18:25] <qense> yes
[18:37] <jarlen> nice
[19:18] <jarlen> wasn't the meeting now?
[19:18] <qense> It's an hour later at 19 UTC
[19:18] <qense> Or 21:00 CEST with DST
[19:30]  * Volans going out for dinner
[19:50] <Diptanu> Hi
[19:50] <nand> hi!
[19:50] <jarlen> hey
[19:51] <Diptanu> How is everyone doing
[19:51] <jarlen> fine, eating dinner
[19:52] <Diptanu> I have a query...I am trying to decide which version of fedora(7/8) to deploy on a server..
[19:52] <Diptanu> Have any thought..
[19:52] <Diptanu> I have freebsd as an option too..
[19:53] <jarlen> what about debian/ubuntu?
[19:53] <Diptanu> I dont have much idea...about how ubuntu does on servers
[19:54] <Diptanu> I know it works really good on desktops..
[19:55] <jarlen> I dunno much about it, either
[19:55] <Diptanu> ok
[19:55] <Diptanu> Thanks..
[19:55] <jarlen> I thinks Ubuntu is fine for server, but Debian is like a stable version of Ubuntu server
[19:55] <Diptanu> I will try to dig into it ..
[19:55] <Diptanu> i see
[19:55] <jarlen> but that's mostly from word of mouth, I havn't had much experience
[19:55] <Diptanu> ok
[19:56] <jarlen> though my Debian server is going with no trouble whatsoever
[19:58] <qense> meeting in two minutes!
[19:59] <qense> 1
[20:00] <qense> It's time to start our meeting about the Ubuntu Wanted 'project'
[20:01] <qense> I'm curious, who here is interested in helping out?
[20:01] <nand> hay!
[20:01] <qense> hello
[20:02] <jarlen> hey
[20:02] <jarlen> I'd be interested in helping out
[20:02] <nand> l;
[20:02] <qense> nice
[20:03] <nand> ok, time to introduce ourselves then
[20:03] <qense> good idea
[20:03] <qense> Shall I start?
[20:03] <nand> please start
[20:03] <qense> ok
[20:04] <qense> My real name is Sense Hofstede. Currently I'm 15 years old. I'm the one that suggested this whole idea.
[20:05] <qense> Programming langauges I know are PHP, a tiny bit of Python and the basics of C#, although we won't need to last two.
[20:05] <nand> My name is Nicolas, I'm the ubuntu brainstorm developer, and I'm willing to put the necessary infrastructure to kickstart that project
[20:05] <nand> jarlen?
[20:06] <jarlen> I'm Jesper, student. I got various programming experience in PHP, Java and Python I'd like to help out with
[20:07] <qense> it seems that we're the only three here
[20:07] <nand> ok, time to introduce the project now
[20:08] <nand> seems so
[20:08] <qense> The idea was to create a website were people within the Ubuntu Community can place vacant jobs/roles/tasks withing their teams and people looking for something to do can look for something to do.
[20:09] <qense> During the discussion at the ubuntu-website list someone also suggested to add a volunteer pool, but we don't have many people so it's not very smart to start big.
[20:10] <Ekushey> qense, do you mean a community-run site?
[20:10] <nand> This will be indeed a community run website
[20:11] <qense> yes
[20:11] <nand> meaning the coding will be done by volunteers, and the hosting will be provided by the community too.
[20:11] <Ekushey> oh ok, sounds good to me
[20:11] <Ekushey> have you decided on the name of the site?
[20:11] <Diptanu> How does the community provide the hosting..
[20:12] <nand> Diptanu: I will provide the hosting
[20:12] <Diptanu> Ok
[20:12] <nand> http://ubuntu-wanted-devel.ideatorrent.org/ for the testing site
[20:12] <Ekushey> we can use a CMS for that, no need to reinvent the wheel
[20:12] <qense> We're using Drupal5.
[20:12]  * Ekushey checks
[20:12] <nand> We have not yet discussed of the current state of the project
[20:13] <Ekushey> qense, i can help, count me in!
[20:13] <qense> nice!
[20:13] <nand> the project is already started a bit
[20:13] <nand> A basic drupal module has been set up
[20:14] <nand> The code is available here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wanted-dev/ubuntu-wanted/devel
[20:14] <qense> currently it displays jobs that are in the database, but it's just text, title and date
[20:14] <nand> Anyone can commit as long as he join the https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wanted-dev team
[20:14] <qense> the See all the details >> link is not working yet
[20:15] <nand> For now, it's a pretty basic setup
[20:15] <qense> The idea is to allow everyone with an account to post, but it has to be accepted by the crew.
[20:15] <Ekushey> nand, ah, looks good
[20:16] <qense> What we need to do now is to decide what futures the first version of the website is going to contain and who is going to do what.
[20:16]  * nand is looking for the installation instructions
[20:17] <qense> The were in a mail
[20:17] <nand> Ok, installation instructions to install and work on the website locally is here: https://lists.canonical.com/mailman/private/ubuntu-website/2008-August/000303.html
[20:17] <Diptanu> I got disconnected..Can anyone paste me the previous conversations
[20:18] <nand> anyone has a question about installation, setting up?
 What we need to do now is to decide what futures the first version of the website is going to contain and who is going to do what.
[20:18] <qense> * nand is looking for the installation instructions
 The were in a mail
[20:18] <nand> Diptanu: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/08/26/%23ubuntu-website.html
[20:18] <Diptanu> Thank you
[20:18] <nand> anyone has a question about installation, setting up?
[20:19] <qense> We could try to reuse the quarentaine section of IdeaTorrent
[20:19] <qense> for the new jobs
[20:19] <nand> qense: it's not that easy to pick code from brainstorm
[20:20] <qense> ok
[20:20] <nand> Ok, so here is a list of some available tasks:
[20:20] <Ekushey> i'll join you guys later, i hope to contribute on this project... time for me to sleep now (1:23 in the morning here!)
[20:21] <nand> - Extend the WantedJobList model : loading data should also fetch the user name author, and the
[20:21] <nand> list of skills. (Simple)
[20:21] <Ekushey> goodbye, my friends
[20:21] <nand> gbye!
[20:21] <qense> bye
[20:21] <nand> - Edit the default_item_v2.php template
[20:21] <nand> (which is the template used to display one single wanted job in a list
[20:21] <nand> of wanted job) to display more info, such as the lenght of the job
[20:21] <nand> (lengthtypeid, lengthvalueid, lengthintervalid field), the status
[20:21] <nand> (New/deleted/Already taken).
[20:21] <Diptanu> 12:50 here !
[20:21] <Diptanu> good night
[20:21] <nand> - Design the individual page of a single wanted job. Also design the form who will allow a user to contact the
[20:21] <nand> poster, in case of an formal application process (and later, after the website is up, we could add a application management page).
[20:21] <nand> - Put some admin function links (e.g. for the poster and admins, the possibility to set the job as "taken").
[20:21] <nand> - Design the job submission page
[20:22] <nand> anyone interested in picking one of these tasks?
[20:23] <emunkki> nand, if i have spare time, i can throw in some suggestions
[20:23] <nand> emunkki: please do
[20:23] <Diptanu> I can do the job submissions page
[20:23] <nand> Diptanu: great!
[20:23] <qense> I can do the page for a single job
[20:24] <nand> Diptanu: any question on the code? have you looked at it yet?
[20:25] <qense> I think I can also extend the defailt_item_v2.php template
[20:25] <nand> great
[20:26] <Diptanu> No i havent
[20:26] <Diptanu> I am trying to..
[20:26] <Diptanu> Can you paste the link again
[20:26] <nand> for every people interested : please apply to https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wanted-dev !
[20:26] <nand> you will need this to be able to commit on the repository
[20:27] <Diptanu> ok
[20:27] <nand> And don't forget : installation instructions to work locally here: https://lists.canonical.com/mailman/private/ubuntu-website/2008-August/000303.html
[20:28] <nand> no more questions?
[20:28] <qense> I think we should make this channel one of the default channels so we can easily communicate
[20:28] <Diptanu> How do i checkout the code from the repository
[20:29] <qense> jarlen: are you still with us?
[20:29] <nand> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wanted-dev/ubuntu-wanted/devel  => Get this branch:  	 bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-wanted-dev/ubuntu-wanted/devel
[20:29] <jarlen> yeh
[20:29] <jarlen> I'm not much of a designer though
[20:30] <qense> The only thing left on the tasks list are the admin functions.
[20:30] <nand> jarlen: wanna pick one task? Not all of them need to be a designer. You can even make and commit ugly interfaces, then others can improve them :)
[20:30] <qense> Would you like to do that?
[20:30] <nand> could be an interesting one indeed!
[20:31] <jarlen> I can look into that, sure
[20:31] <qense> great
[20:31] <qense> now we've divided all tasks
[20:31] <qense> One question though, the job submission should go to an email address?
[20:31] <qense> Which address?
[20:32] <nand> job submission shoud go to an email?
[20:32] <nand> you mean a job application?
[20:32] <qense> yes
[20:32] <qense> oops
[20:32] <nand> it should go to the poster email (which is registered in the drupal tables)
[20:32] <qense> The post should tell us when the job is taken, so we can mark it as taken.
[20:33] <nand> yep. That will be a admin function : mark the job as taken
[20:33] <qense> We should set up an maillist for things like that when we go live.
[20:33] <nand> To everybody: please carefully read the SQL table doc on the wanted.info file
[20:33] <Diptanu> That kinda boosts me
[20:35] <qense> OK, is there anything else that needs to be discussed?
[20:35] <vbabiy> newz20001: Hey you around?
[20:35] <newz20001> hey
[20:35] <vbabiy> how was you vac?
[20:36] <nand> ok. Then let's meet next week to see how things have gone
[20:36] <nand> is 21 UTC ok for everyone ?
[20:36] <nand> uh, 19 UTC
[20:36] <newz2000> vbabiy: good, though there wasn't one day without someone being sick. :-/
[20:36] <Diptanu> fine with me
[20:36] <qense> fine with me
[20:37] <qense> OK, well everyone good luck with your tasks
[20:37] <vbabiy> newz2000: ouch :(
[20:37] <newz2000> it's good to be back. :-)
[20:37] <qense> Who is going to tell Ekushey?
[20:37] <nand> Great. Meanwhile, I'll be here during the week for any question concerning the code or installation instructions
[20:37] <Diptanu> newz2000: Ur back.. :)
[20:37] <Diptanu> nand: whats your emaail id?
[20:37] <nand> qense: you should make another mail on the list!
[20:38] <qense> good idea
[20:38] <nand> Diptanu: ndeschildre@ ubuntu
[20:38] <qense> I hope some more people are going to show up, maybe madsrh can make it then too.
[20:38] <Diptanu> nand: ok
[20:38] <vbabiy> newz2000: I haven't had time to revise the design do you want to go over it one more time, and refresh my memory :)
[20:38] <Diptanu> It would be great fo someone posts the minutes of todays meeting on the mailing list
[20:39] <newz2000> vbabiy: sure, let me refresh mine too, give me just a min
[20:39] <vbabiy> newz2000: sounds good just ping me when u are ready
[20:39] <qense> I can send an email tomorrow with details about this and the upcoming meeting.
[20:39] <nand> qense: thanks. Please attach who is doing what
[20:40] <Diptanu> qense That wud be great
[20:40] <qense> ok
[20:40] <qense> goodbye for now!
[20:40] <qense> thanks for your attendance
[20:40] <qense> bye
[20:40] <nand> see ya!
[20:45] <newz2000> vbabiy: I've got a summary of our previous conversation, I'll paste it in, lets hope I don't get kicked for flooding...
[20:45] <newz2000> Using your mockup as a point of reference: http://vbabiy.mine.nu:8080/
[20:45] <newz2000> I think you've done a good thing by getting rid of the header image at the top, I think you can also get rid of search. that allows you to get a lot of visuals in above the fold
[20:45] <newz2000> I could imagine us doing a layout this wide (as wide as your mockup from two weeks ago) like you've done that won't need a detail page
[20:45] <newz2000> http://digitarald.de/playground/fly-over-background/ - notice the smooth animation
[20:45] <newz2000> picture this - no up down diagnol stuff, just left/right - images are laid out side by side with a small gap between then, kind of like a filmstrip
[20:45] <newz2000> but it doesn't need to actually look like a filmstrip
[20:45] <newz2000> so when you click the "next" arrow, the image slides in from the right, underneath your gray box. the contents of the grey box would then change to match whatever the current image is (i.e. it would describe the current image)
[20:46] <newz2000> in the top right where the nav was there should be a link to the download page - do leave room somewhere prominent for the download button
[20:47] <vbabiy> newz2000: didn't we talk about the User stories also?
[20:47] <vbabiy> because all that has to be implemented in code, but we said we wont go in to code till the design is final
[20:47] <newz2000> I don't remember that
[20:48] <vbabiy> newz2000: hmm, maybe I made it up
[20:48] <newz2000> though I do remember the part about creating a mock-up before doing code
[20:49] <vbabiy> okay, what do you mean by mockup -- CSS and XHTML or what I have
[20:49] <newz2000> graphical
[20:50] <vbabiy> newz2000: so is once the download image is in there we are final with the mockup?
[20:51] <newz2000> I'd like to see it incorporate the "filmstrip" look and a nice big screenshot with next/prev buttons
[20:51] <newz2000> and finding a diff way to do the left hand nav that doesn't take up so much space
[20:51] <newz2000> maybe moving it down below
[20:53] <jarlen> hm, just getting to know bzr :P
[20:54] <nand> jarlen: any question, just ask :)
[20:54] <Diptanu> same here. never used bzr before
[20:55] <nand> the basic commands are:
[20:55] <jarlen> I think I got it
[20:55] <nand> bzr branch to get the code for the first time
[20:55] <jarlen> found a guide :) http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/en/mini-tutorial/index.html
[20:55] <nand> then when you want to commit, do a bzr pull, bzr commit, bzr push
[20:55] <vbabiy> newz2000: what do you mean by filmstrip look?
[20:56] <nand> (bzr pull to retrieve the changes of others, bzr commit to record your changes, bzr push to put your commit on Launchpad)
[20:56] <newz2000> vbabiy: give me a sec, I'll draw it...
[20:56] <jarlen> it requires postgresql? :S
[20:57] <nand> jarlen: is that a problem?
[20:57] <nand> I often see people feeling bad about it, I don't know why
[20:57] <jarlen> nah, I was just hoping to be able to run it on my webhost
[20:57] <jarlen> but it only has mysql
[20:57] <nand> It's as simple as mysql, plus it has an easier admin interface GUI (pgadmin3)
[20:57] <nand> okay
[21:03] <Diptanu> Do i need to have a launchpad id to checkout the code
[21:03] <Diptanu> It doesnt hav any anonymous user mode?
[21:04] <Diptanu> I got it
[21:06] <newz2000> vbabiy: http://code.bearfruit.org/~matt/tmp/feature-tour-wireframe.png
[21:07] <newz2000> I know, its rough
[21:08] <newz2000> but note that screenshots tile side by side so you can sort of see the next one
[21:08] <newz2000> that's what I mean by filmstrip
[21:08] <newz2000> then hitting next causes it to slide in from the right, using the smooth animation we saw in the flyby example linked above
[21:09] <newz2000> as (or after) the image slides in, the "applications" box changes to describe the current screenshot
[21:10] <vbabiy> newz2000: looking at it now
[21:19] <vbabiy> newz2000: do you really think have such a huge portion of the screen be animated will run well in the browser?
[21:19] <newz2000> vbabiy: yeah, I think so
[21:20] <newz2000> it may take some clever work but I'm not worried about it
[21:20] <vbabiy> newz2000: I have done some animation in the browser and if it gets to large or to much it gets choppy
[21:20] <newz2000> there are some tricks...
[21:21] <newz2000> for example, google maps uses tiling to create an inifinitely large map that is animated
[21:21] <newz2000> we could do the same
[21:22] <vbabiy> newz2000: how would tiling help with animation. Tiling helps for loading.
[21:22] <newz2000> I'm assuming it helps by keeping the total filesize down relative to image quality
[21:24] <newz2000> vbabiy: my point is there are lots of tricks we can use so I'm not worried about performance *yet*
[21:24] <vbabiy> newz2000: I can try putting a mockup together with this idea
[21:24] <newz2000> if you don't mind, I'd like to see it
[21:25] <vbabiy> newz2000: of course I will try to do one to night, see how it comes out
[21:25] <newz2000> I think we can make this look very pretty, and add some, "ooh" and "ahh" to the feature tour
[21:25] <vbabiy> newz2000: are going to have to support IE 6
[21:25] <newz2000> yes
[21:26] <newz2000> :-(
[21:26] <vbabiy> damn..
[21:26] <Diptanu> news2000: just out of curiosity how many of the users still hit the site with IE 6 ?
[21:27] <newz2000> Diptanu: under 15%
[21:27] <vbabiy> I just wish everyone dropped IE 6 and that would force people to upgrade
[21:27] <Diptanu> Not surprising
[21:27] <newz2000> lots of corporate people have standardized on IE6 and are slow to upgrade
[21:28] <Diptanu> John resig has releases a test suite for Javascript
[21:28] <Diptanu> They ran well on FF as well as on safari
[21:28] <Diptanu> the moment i tried to put the tests on IE
[21:28] <Diptanu> Believe me. it crashed
[21:28] <Diptanu> :)
[21:29] <vbabiy> IE 6 is the biggest time waister in web Dev.
[21:29] <Diptanu> vbabiy absolutely right
[21:29] <newz2000> well, to be fair, it was the best thing in the world when it came out. :-)
[21:29] <newz2000> but I do wish it would go away
[21:30] <Diptanu> Ya...and brought with it, the burst of the dot com era as well as netscape
[21:30] <Diptanu> :P
[21:31] <vbabiy> Diptanu: :)
[21:34] <vbabiy> newz2000: if you click on news letter, this animation is even slow in IE6 http://vbabiy.mine.nu:9090/EuroLoads/home.seam
[21:35] <newz2000> they're using scriptaculous
[21:36] <newz2000> but it was acceptable speed to me
[21:36] <vbabiy> newz2000: they is me :)
[21:36] <newz2000> oops
[21:36] <newz2000> :-)
[21:36] <newz2000> vbabiy: try this one: http://digitarald.de/playground/fly-over-background/
[21:37] <vbabiy> newz2000: but it still has some fixing to do.
[21:37] <vbabiy> yeah, I think we should try it and see how it goes
[21:38] <Diptanu> I think the accordion isnt smooth..
[21:38] <Diptanu> I meant the animation on the accordion
[21:45] <Diptanu> Good Night everyone
[21:51] <mdke> newz2000: still around?
[21:52] <newz2000> mdke: yep
[21:52] <mdke> newz2000: yay. You know the logo at the top of the website? how would one go about trying to get one with "Documentation" added to it?
[21:52] <mdke> my wiki theme is coming along nicely
[21:53] <newz2000> I can do it for you, just a sec
[21:53]  * mdke hugs
[21:56] <vbabiy> newz2000: http://www.panic.com/coda/ take a look at how they do the tabs
[21:57] <newz2000> mdke: how's this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mnuzum/tmp/docs-logo.png
[21:58] <newz2000> vbabiy: those are nice tabs
[21:58] <newz2000> kind of "un-tabs"
[21:58] <vbabiy> newz2000: but the slide show thing works well to
[21:58] <vbabiy> or film strip
[21:58] <mdke> newz2000: pretty cool :) Is there a way to make it bigger? even if you have to use some extra right space, as with https://help.ubuntu.com now
[21:59] <newz2000> mdke:  you want the whole thing bigger or just the word "documentation"?
[21:59] <mdke> newz2000: the latter, if you think it works. I'm just wondering how best to differentiate from the main site, to make it clear the user has moved
[22:00] <mdke> I was toying with a slightly different logo, such as https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc, but I don't really like changing logos
[22:00] <newz2000> I may not be the one to ask about this since I'm not a big fan of custom logos
[22:00] <newz2000> but I can definitely make the text larger
[22:01] <mdke> I'm not either, let's go with the text
[22:02] <mdke> here is what my theme looks like at the moment, for any intermediate comments anyone has - http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/wikitheme.png
[22:02] <newz2000> mdke: refresh that url I gave
[22:02] <mdke> fantastic, thanks
[22:02] <emunkki> mdke, that's the ubuntu skin for the wiki?
[22:03] <newz2000> that text is so sharp
[22:03] <jarlen> hm, my drupal/apache installation won't recognise my posgresql installation, is there any specific changes I need to do to make them work together?
[22:04] <jarlen> I can't find much on the subject
[22:04] <newz2000> jarlen: I've not had great luck getting drupal and postgres to work...
[22:04] <emunkki> jarlen, have you checked the drupal settings file?
[22:04] <newz2000> drupal core tends to be OK but plugins often lack support/testing for pg
[22:04] <mdke> emunkki: work in progress...
[22:04] <emunkki> mdke, but will be that?
[22:05] <mdke> emunkki: I don't know
[22:05] <jarlen> emunkki > no
[22:05] <jarlen> don't think so
[22:05] <mdke> emunkki: but the idea is to use it at least for the help wiki
[22:05] <emunkki> jarlen, sites/default/something.icant.remember
[22:05] <emunkki> mdke, ok
[22:06] <mdke> I still haven't been able to bring myself to change the brown links to red...
[22:06] <emunkki> mdke, html body a { color: red; }
[22:06] <emunkki> should work in basically any case
[22:06] <newz2000> mdke: I've been trying some new stuff with the themeing I've done on moin lately... namely to get rid of the clutter at the top of the page
[22:07] <mdke> newz2000: have you got an example?
[22:07] <newz2000> yes, somewhere...
[22:07] <emunkki> newz2000, can we use same templates i've done for the kubuntu start page?
[22:07] <emunkki> or modified, of course
[22:07] <emunkki> would that be too bad?
[22:08] <newz2000> emunkki: not ready for such a radical change yet I think
[22:08] <emunkki> gnaa ;)
[22:09] <newz2000> mdke: bzr co http://people.ubuntu.com/~mnuzum/projects/landscapetheme/
[22:10] <newz2000> you'll see in there a 'wiki' folder with the landscape wiki theme
[22:10] <newz2000> for moin 1.6.3
[22:11] <newz2000> wait, let me make sure its up to date
[22:12] <newz2000> mdke: I just updated it, so if you already grabed it, do an update
[22:12] <newz2000> but if not, its safe to pull now
[22:13] <mdke> newz2000: ok. i'll check it out now
[22:14] <jarlen> ok, got that working, now it just says my php isn't setup to use postgresql :P
[22:16] <mdke> newz2000: very nice
[22:17] <emunkki> jarlen, is it then?
[22:17] <newz2000> mdke: I'm afraid that the sudden loss of clutter will freak people out, but personally I think it yields a much cleaner layout
[22:17] <jarlen> most likely not
[22:18] <jarlen> looking at the config file now
[22:18] <emunkki> jarlen, http://fi2.php.net/manual/en/pgsql.setup.php ?
[22:19] <mdke> newz2000: agreed, although it's not as obvious for editors how to start editing, and they have to go further too
[22:20] <newz2000> my thought was the editing is done far less frequently than reading, and you can just press the end key to jump to the page bottom
[22:20] <newz2000> a cooler thing may be to have the edit bar attach to the bottom of the browser window irrespective of scrolling if the user is logged in
[22:21] <mdke> yes, that would be cool indeed
[22:21] <emunkki> #div { position: attached; }
[22:22] <newz2000> is it that simple these days?
[22:22] <newz2000> that's slick
[22:22] <emunkki> iirc, it is
[22:23] <emunkki> it might be some other css selector, but anyway
[22:23] <emunkki> it definately is easy
[22:23] <mdke> that doesn't seem to work here, on an initial try
[22:23] <emunkki> mdke, i'll check it in a minut
[22:23] <emunkki> +e
[22:24] <newz2000> there was position: fixed
[22:24] <newz2000> but I only used it for background images
[22:24] <emunkki> might be that
[22:24] <mdke> then again, all my moin/css activity is total trial and error, rather than any real understanding
[22:24] <emunkki> http://www.w3schools.com/Css/pr_class_position.asp
[22:24] <emunkki> some of those
[22:24] <emunkki> can't really remember
[22:24] <newz2000> mdke: try position: fixed; bottom: 0; left: 0; width: 100%
[22:24] <emunkki> it's not 100% reliable on different browsers
[22:25] <emunkki> but you can adapt different ways for it to appear for ie, example
[22:25] <newz2000> right, position: fixed used to be just IE only
[22:25] <emunkki> with IE's conditional comments
[22:26] <emunkki> just wait a minute and i'll check it ;)
[22:27] <mdke> newz2000: yes, that works
[22:27] <mdke> clever :)
[22:27] <emunkki> ok, so that should work with most modern browsers
[22:27] <emunkki> pay special attention to IE, however
[22:27] <emunkki> i remember it having some problems with fixed position elements
[22:29] <mdke> it will need a box to stop it from clashing with the page text, but that looks like it has distinct potential
[22:30] <newz2000> just give it a background-color: #fff; border-top: 1px solid #000;
[22:30] <newz2000> or use the dark brown instead of #000
[22:30] <newz2000> wow, droid is such a good font, but some of its letters (little g) are so distinct
[22:31] <newz2000> it's so easy to read in small spaces
[22:31] <newz2000> I just wish it looked a little more generic
[22:35] <mdke> ok, bed for me. Thanks for your help guys
[22:36] <emunkki> see you
[22:44] <emunkki> night ->
[22:47] <jarlen> Ok, I have absolutely NO idea why it won't take my postgresql extension for php after editing the php.ini as asked
[22:47] <jarlen> I give up
[22:47] <jarlen> goodnight


[08:01] <gnuoy> jamespage, https://code.launchpad.net/~gnuoy/charms/trusty/cisco-vpp/amulet/+merge/277787 if you get a moment
[08:48] <jamespage> gnuoy, merged
[08:48] <gnuoy> ta
[09:43] <jamespage> gnuoy, https://code.launchpad.net/~james-page/charms/trusty/odl-controller/doc-updates/+merge/277797
[09:45] <gnuoy> jamespage, don't you need to reference the config.yaml at line 44 of the diff?
[09:45] <jamespage> gnuoy, yes pushed
[09:45] <gnuoy> ta
[09:49] <gnuoy> jamespage, approved
[10:00] <jamespage> gnuoy, I'm working on refreshes to the bundles for liberty and the 15.10 charm release this morning - we should add that to the release checklist
[10:01] <gnuoy> ack, good catch
[10:03] <gnuoy> jamespage, done
[10:23] <jamespage> gnuoy, mind if I do a trivial on all of our charms for "maintainer: OpenStack Charmers<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:23] <jamespage> ?
[10:23] <gnuoy> jamespage, please do, thanks
[10:55] <jamespage> gnuoy, done
[10:55] <jamespage> gnuoy, I tied some pretty crappy summary and description bits at the same time
[10:56] <jamespage> tided rather
[10:57] <gnuoy> sounds good, thanks
[11:14] <jamespage> gnuoy, can you sanity check:
[11:14] <jamespage> https://code.launchpad.net/~james-page/charms/bundles/openstack-base/bundle/+merge/277798
[11:14] <jamespage> and
[11:14] <jamespage> https://code.launchpad.net/~james-page/charms/bundles/openstack-telemetry/bundle/+merge/277799
[11:14] <jamespage> I've just deployed telemetry in dellstack and run through the README ok
[11:14] <jamespage> telemetry == base + ceilometer
[11:17] <gnuoy> 'num_units: 0' looks odd but since you've deployed with it is looks like it does no harm for subordinates
[11:17] <jamespage> gnuoy, thats a gui-ism
[11:17] <gnuoy> jamespage, why are the mcast ports explicitly stated for a couple of services?
[11:17] <jamespage> gnuoy, again I have not idea why the gui elected to add those...
[11:18] <gnuoy> haha
[11:18] <jamespage> they could be dropped
[11:20] <jamespage> gnuoy, charmstore does some verification of bundles
[11:20] <jamespage> https://jujucharms.com/u/james-page/openstack-base
[11:20] <jamespage> and https://jujucharms.com/u/james-page/openstack-telemetry
[11:20] <jamespage> that validates the format and the charm revs...
[11:20] <gnuoy> the bundles look ok to me
[11:23] <jamespage> gnuoy, ok
[11:23] <jamespage> thanks
[16:10] <kwmonroe> hey folks - what's the difference between "destroy-environment local" and "destroy-environment local --force"?  help tells me that force destroys "directly through the env provider", but i don't know what that means for local.
[18:30] <asanjar1> kwmonroe: hi
[18:30] <kwmonroe> hey asanjar1
[18:31] <asanjar1> kwmonroe: thanks for v9 version. Maria's team could use you onsite for few hours to resolve the remaining issues.. do you have time? I have already asked arosales
[18:32] <kwmonroe> asanjar1: is the caffetteria food any good?
[18:32] <kwmonroe> (and yeah, i can be there around 1:45 this afternoon)
[18:32] <asanjar1> kwmonroe: I wounder if there is something unique with their environment
[18:32] <asanjar1> kwmonroe: no man, it SUCKS
[18:33] <asanjar1> kwmonroe: I am losing weight
[18:33] <asanjar1> okay let me ping here
[20:01] <jcastro> anyone have a tldr on the current state of the jenkins charm?
[20:01] <jcastro> it hasn't been touched for over a year so it's either really awesome or horrible. :)
[20:05] <jcastro> huh wait a minute, it is updated, the jujucharms changelog is broken?!
[20:06] <lazypower> jcastro - correct. its been receiving some attention. The changelog in the store has been silently sometimes-functional due to the v3->v4 transition
[20:08] <jrwren> does juju support ipv6? I can't seem to juju ssh to a machine with ipv6 public-address the proxy-ssh netcat fails. http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/13334236/
[20:09] <jrwren> *doh* nevenmind. i was misinterpreting the message.  works fine
[20:15] <lazypower> jrwren woo! \o/
[20:21] <jcastro> lazypower: ack, filed a bug
[20:26] <jrwren> any write amulet tests which execute on an ipv6 environment? :)
[20:52] <beisner> o/ jcastro, jenkins charm has action in the review queue to, to bring feature parity of the python rewrite back up to le ole bash precise jenkins charm.
[20:52] <beisner> too, even.
[20:55] <jcastro> beisner: do you guys maintain it? you guys being the openstackers
[20:56] <beisner> jcastro, no.  but we consume an old diverged fork, and would like to switch to consuming a converged, updated, works-for-everyone version, ie. the python rewrite + back-filled features.
[20:56] <beisner> jcastro, so, by virtue, contributing to the thing, testing the thing, making proposals of the thing, could be pretty close to "maintaining"  ;-)
[20:59] <jrwren> bash charms <3
[21:01] <beisner> :)
[22:36] <adam_g> hey, ive got a charm questino wrt coordination between two services. i have service A that will eventually get a relation to B. when it does, B will do some stuff on A's API.  before it can, service A needs a complete relation to service 1 and 2 (say, DB and message queue)
[22:37] <adam_g> is there a good way to interrogate that on B's side, short of adding some data in the relation settings exported by A that B can use as a test?
[22:37] <adam_g> its been a while since ive juju'd, but i remember dealing with this often. wondering if a good practice has come up since
[22:38] <adam_g> jamespage, maybe you know
[22:40] <mgz> adam_g: I think the normal way is that B doesn't set it's api details on the B-A relation till it has B-1 and B-2 relations up and whatever real interfaces for those up and ready
[22:40] <mgz> so, A will not get the relation config stuff it needs to start the api poking till B is really ready to act on it
[22:41] <mgz> juju now has nice reporting in status where a charm can say it is "blocked" for these sorts of situations
[22:41] <adam_g> mgz, well, thats complicated by the fact that the API endpoint isn't advertised via relation, its published into a catalog (read: keystone)
[22:42] <adam_g> mgz, ya, im looking at the status stuff now in the openstack charms. will have to go find the docs on that
[22:44] <marcoceppi> adam_g: there really isn't a way to interogate b's relations, Juju doesn't set up that kind of dependency train, otherwise A becomes co-dependant to Bs architecture. Relation data is the best way to handle this
[22:44] <mgz> adam_g: https://jujucharms.com/docs/1.24/reference-status is some of it, there are some new tools for setting that from hooks
[22:45] <adam_g> marcoceppi, yeah, was hoping to get around it without having to extend existing stuff
[22:45] <mgz> adam_g: if you can't set the api details directly, you can just have a api-ready: bool type thing on the relation config
[22:45] <adam_g> mgz, thats what i was thinking, thanks


[09:04] <Guest71> hallo
 hello
 NTQV
 3mS2
 this chat is also available in german
[10:28] <Guest7328> hi im new
[10:28] <Guest7328> im testing log4shell
[10:28] <Guest7328> ao anyways bye
[10:49] <Guest7328> hi
[12:15] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[15:14] <TomyWork> https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/keyboard-osk.html.en I wanna hug the person who wrote step 1 here, really tightly. that's all I'm gonna say about this.
[17:01] <user|87> hallo can someone help me, cant login in livesession
[17:03] <user|87> ?
[17:04] <user|87> hallo
[18:22] <user|43> Hi, I run Kubuntu18.04, I want to upgrade to Kubuntu20.04 (not higher due to software incompatibilities with my scientific programming platform)
[18:27] <user|43> I run Kubuntu10.04 and I downloaded Kubuntu20.04 ISO image. How to precede to upgrade to Kubuntu20.04?
[18:27] <user|43> sorry , I run Kubuntu18.04
[18:31] <user|43> Hi gelma_hat, can you advise me in this matter?
[18:33] <diogenes_Vx15> !upgrade
[18:36] <user|43> great, thanks
[21:56] <kubuntu> anyone here?


[00:44] <Noskcaj> Can someone please retry bijiben on all arches? It was waiting on gtk 3.14 but didn't have a versioned dep
[01:24] <infinity> Noskcaj: Retrying.
[01:33] <Noskcaj> ty
[11:34] <nitohu> Hello