[12:24] <LaserJock> hmmm, lots of people complaining about the file system on the forums
[12:25] <lucas> the file system ?
[12:25] <LaserJock> seems odd that people would be worried about that now, although maybe it's always been there and I've missed it
[12:25] <LaserJock> the directory layout
[12:25] <LaserJock>  /bin, /etc ....
[12:25] <azeem>  /etc is new in edgy? ;)
[12:25] <lucas> now I know why I don't read the forums
[12:26] <lucas> and I thought ubuntu-devel@ was difficult to follow :)
[12:27] <minghua> so basically they say FHS is wrong, or what?
[12:28] <LaserJock> it seems that a more OS X or GoboLinux
[12:28] <Burgundavia> yep
[12:28] <LaserJock> yeah, that FHS is tool archaic and difficult for new people to learn
[12:28] <LaserJock> s/tool/too/
[12:29] <minghua> yeah, I remember Gobo Linux
[12:29] <minghua> such a weird idea
[12:29] <LaserJock> it's an interesting thought, I mean we shouldn't *only* keep things around because that's the way it's always been done
[12:29] <LaserJock> but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me
[12:30] <LaserJock> do new users really go rooting around the file system like that?
[12:30] <Burgundavia> forums people do
[12:30] <Burgundavia> and then they fuck up their machines and bitch to /.
[12:30] <LaserJock> sure
[12:31] <LaserJock> I was just thinking about a conversation I had with imbrandon about him using the .hidden file in Kubuntu
[12:31] <minghua> they don't use the proper tool, but modify files in /etc/ by hand, then complain that /etc/ is too hard to understand
[12:31] <Burgundavia> it has been a long time since the forums had a sensible idea
[12:31] <LaserJock> basically not showing that stuff to the user by default
[12:31] <minghua> I agree hiding them from users in the GUI is a good idea
[12:31] <LaserJock> sometimes the forums are worth addressing though
[12:32] <LaserJock> as they are our largest user population that we can get at
[12:32] <Burgundavia> sometimes
[12:32] <minghua> nah.  I read the forum thread about _ion's wallpaper today
[12:32] <Burgundavia> a lot of people in the forums have a hard time understanding how development works
[12:32] <minghua> don't want to read forum again in near future
[12:32] <Burgundavia> I should write a piece about it
[12:36] <LaserJock> darn it, that "lets do stable, testing, and unstable in Ubuntu" thread is kinda messy
[12:36] <LaserJock> that joepotter guy really gets on my nerves
[12:37] <LaserJock> he flames me almost every time I talk about Ubuntu development
[12:37] <LaserJock> he really can't stand that Ubuntu does it differently then Debian
[12:38] <minghua> LaserJock, you should stop reading forums and work on science packages :-P
[12:39] <LaserJock> I know
[12:39] <LaserJock> but there needs to be some sanity on the forums ;-)
[12:39] <LaserJock> even if it's too little too late :-)
[12:39] <crimsun> no there doesn't. Think of it as a playpen.
[12:41] <LaserJock> well, for the most part I don't care
[12:41] <pygi> LaserJock, whats the link to that thread?
[12:42] <LaserJock> what really aggravates me is when somebody spouts completely false information and then all the little sheep take it as gospel
[12:42] <LaserJock> people throwing ideas around, even if they aren't great, is much better then specifically spreading false information
[12:43] <LaserJock> pygi: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=297169
[12:43] <LaserJock> minghua: sorry, got too much into cultural/religious references ;-)
[12:44] <minghua> LaserJock: actually I only need to look up gospel.  Just a reminder not everyone understands bible references :-)
[12:45] <LaserJock> minghua: I'll rephrase it as "take it as absolute truth"
[12:47] <minghua> this guy just doesn't understand the unstable branch is not important, it's the _people_ who use the unstable branch that are important"
[12:47] <minghua> at least that's my opinion
[12:52] <minghua> okay, time to go home
[12:59] <Simon80> it's true
[01:00] <Simon80> but I do find myself unsatified with the stability of some aspects of Ubuntu
[01:00] <Simon80> ....too late to talk with minghua though, hehe
[01:00] <LaserJock> right
[01:00] <LaserJock> it's find to be unsatisfied, IMO
[01:01] <LaserJock> but the answer is not to just shout at the developers
[01:01] <LaserJock> and insult them :-)
[01:01] <Simon80> where does he do that?
[01:01] <Simon80> lol
[01:01] <crimsun> although it's fine to insult the raging motuaholic.
[01:02] <LaserJock> hmm
[01:02] <crimsun> he's a RAGING motuaholic; he can take it
[01:02] <LaserJock> Simon80: well, that guy has insulted me absolutely every time he has replied to one of my posts
[01:02] <LaserJock> this is the tamest one I've seen, so far
[01:05] <crimsun> convince those guys to spec and implement an alternative release, then, in parallel with feisty.
[01:05] <crimsun> I suspect they'll change their minds very, very quickly
[01:05] <crimsun> and "I give up, you do it" is not an option for them :)
[01:05] <crimsun> remember it's fashionable to pick on Ubuntu
[01:06] <crimsun> people love to whine; only a few actually put in the work
[01:07] <Simon80> yep
[01:07] <crimsun> (that's why we exist, eh?)
[01:07] <Simon80> somewhat, I was mostly no work untill recently.. I plan on getting stepmania into feisty
[01:07] <Simon80> people want to give their 2 cents without diong work
[01:07] <Simon80> doing*
[01:08] <crimsun> heh, and people wonder why some DDs seem bitter...
[01:08] <Simon80> in some cases I think that's valid, like if something regresses, or just isn't fixed, and the fix is out there
[01:11] <crimsun> unfortunately just because a fix is available doesn't imply it's appropriate
[01:12] <Simon80> but usually it is
[01:12] <crimsun> we've seen that a few times with various updates. There's no guarantee said fix doesn't introduce regressions.
[01:21] <LaserJock> well, I wouldn't mind people bringing up problems, but often there is a lack of understanding of the development process
[01:21] <LaserJock> which is understandable if you haven't been around it before
[01:21] <lifeless> :)
[01:21] <lifeless> so when that hapens, find the netry point and update it to supply more hints
[01:23] <Simon80> lol
[01:23] <Simon80> pwnt
[01:28] <LaserJock> ok, well I blasted away a big on on that thread (like it'll do any good)
[01:28] <LaserJock> and now I need to get back to useful things
[01:29] <imbrandon> re
[01:29] <imbrandon> heya LaserJock
[01:29] <imbrandon> and lifeless
[01:29] <LaserJock> hi imbrandon
[01:29] <imbrandon> huhu Simon80 new face ( to me ), how go's it
[01:30] <superm1> hey imbrandon long time no see
[01:31] <imbrandon> heya superm1 yea, i dident make it on irc much last week at the UDS
[01:31] <imbrandon> just poped in and out
[01:31] <superm1> ah. UDS go well?
[01:31] <imbrandon> yea very well over all from my point of view
[01:31] <imbrandon> lots of productive stuff got done/planned
[01:32] <imbrandon> ( and some not so productive stuff after hours )
[01:32] <superm1> good good
[01:32] <superm1> hehe
[01:32] <imbrandon> hehe
[01:32] <lifeless> hi imbrandon
[01:32] <bhale> no, im brandon
[01:32] <lifeless> imbrandon: mao
[01:32] <imbrandon> bhale, true but imbrandon not im brandon :) hehe
[01:32] <imbrandon> lifeless, ahh yea
[01:33] <imbrandon> i dont think i did terrible for the first time only played what , an hour or so
[01:33] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I was truly terrible at it in Paris
[01:33] <superm1> whats moui?  i'm not turning up much in google
[01:33] <imbrandon> heh
[01:34] <LaserJock> imbrandon: but I was working on not enough sleep and was a bit sick at the time
[01:34] <imbrandon> well i made it down to 2 cards at one point so i was happy
[01:34] <LaserJock> superm1: mao
[01:34] <superm1> ah hehe
[01:34] <LaserJock> it's some sort of geek-magnet card game
[01:34] <imbrandon> mao , thus the (sp? ) at the end i wasent sure of the spelling
[01:34] <lophyte> superm1: who did you say you were in contact with in Toronto?
[01:34] <superm1> oh michael macleod
[01:35] <lophyte> ahh..
[01:35] <LaserJock> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_(game)
[01:35] <lophyte> I hosted a newbie ubuntu workshop last night and met a woman there who said she was talking to you about your myth/edgy wiki page
[01:35] <superm1> sounds cool "the only rule you may be told is this one."
[01:36] <superm1> lophyte, did you catch her name?
[01:36] <lophyte> nope :\
[01:36] <imbrandon> superm1, yea you cant be told the rules before or durring the game play
[01:36] <superm1> thats really cool
[01:36] <lophyte> just know that she's setting up a home theater system with myth
[01:36] <lophyte> and she mentioned you
[01:36] <superm1> glad to hear that i'm making the rounds in canadia :)
[01:36] <lophyte> hehe, apparently
[01:37] <superm1> imbrandon, well in favor of having a more fun first game then, i wont read the rules on the wikipedia page
[01:38] <lophyte> her handle is dennister
[01:38] <imbrandon> :)
[01:38] <crimsun> wuhoh, we have another motu celeb in our midst
[01:38] <superm1> dennister, hmm i'll have to look through some emails and see if i can find out who she was
[01:39] <lophyte> that's her handle on linuxcaffe.ca anyway.. dunno if she uses it anywhere else
[01:39] <Simon80> imbrandon: hey, stepmania has brought me here
[01:39] <Simon80> packaging it
[01:39] <lophyte> woooo stepmania
[01:39] <lophyte> dude!
[01:39] <lophyte> I just got an awesome idea
[01:39] <lophyte> when I get around to setting up a myth box.. I'm *so* installing stepmania on it
[01:39] <Simon80> yeah, if you want a stepmania deb from 20061106 cvs sources, it's on my site
[01:40] <imbrandon> Simon80, rock on, just saying "hi" since i hadent talked/typed to you before
[01:40] <Simon80> yeah, I know
[01:40] <Simon80> I was responding to that :)
[01:40] <superm1> lophyte, i've got it on my mythbox with a hand built  metal pad, but i havent played in ages since the pad broke 4 months ago
[01:40] <Simon80> aww
[01:40] <lophyte> nice.. I've always wanted to build a dandce pad
[01:41] <Simon80> yeah, I may want to
[01:41] <Simon80> gonna go eat
[01:41] <lophyte> the damn pad we have keeps slipping, annoying as heck
[01:41] <superm1> there was a good guide i found a few years back to building a metal one.  cost me roughly 120 USD and 28 hrs labor
[01:41] <lophyte> I saw a guide for one made of wood
[01:41] <Simon80> http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/~sruggier/files/apt/ if anyone wants stepmania as is... I'm gonna backport to 3.9 sometime so I can get it on revu
[01:41] <Simon80> need to get my key signed too
[01:42] <lophyte> you know what would work, though? just nail/velcro the real pads to a wooden platform
[01:42] <lophyte> that way they won't slip
[01:42] <superm1> that doesnt work because they wear out
[01:42] <superm1> after so many steps
[01:42] <Simon80> I know someone who's done that
[01:42] <superm1> thats what i originally did
[01:42] <Simon80> based on a howto online
[01:42] <superm1> but i was going through pads too quickly
[01:42] <lophyte> sure, but buy a new one.. they're cheap
[01:42] <superm1> so i built the metal one
[01:42] <lophyte> we've had our pads for almost a year
[01:42] <Simon80> it's really the adapter that's a pain to obtain, getting one that maps buttons to buttons
[01:43] <Simon80> so once you have that, you can get a pad locally
[01:43] <lophyte> you mean a PS2->USB adapter?
[01:43] <Simon80> yeah
[01:43] <Simon80> sorry
[01:43] <Simon80> lol
[01:44] <Simon80> but yes, I bought 5 pads+adapters from lik-sang a while ago
[01:44] <Simon80> early this year
[01:44] <Simon80> 1 for me, 1 for gf, 1 for little sis, 2 to sell
[01:44] <Simon80> had one lined up to sell right away, was too lazy to second the second
[01:44] <Simon80> sell*
[01:44] <lophyte> it wouldn't be too hard to build a simple wooden platform..
[01:45] <superm1> i used a hand built lpt -> ps2 adapter for a while too, but i only ever had it working in win98 back in the day.  never got it working in linux, so i got one of those lik sang ones too
[01:45] <Simon80> yeah, I got one of the 2 port triangle shaped adapters
[01:46] <superm1> imbrandon, could you by chance get those branches set up tonite?  i've got some debdiffs that are growing by the day that i wanted to try to get on there
[01:46] <imbrandon> superm1, just load the joydev and ...... umm *rembers* gamecon kernel modules if not loaded already and the ltp ones work
[01:46] <imbrandon> superm1, sure
[01:46] <lophyte> I suck at DDR though.. lol
[01:46] <lophyte> but meh
[01:46] <lophyte> its fun
[01:47] <fernando> hi all
[01:47] <imbrandon> ello fernando
[01:47] <superm1> i'll have to dig up that adapter from the closet and see if i cant get it working with those modules.  i remember only briefly trying with it
[01:48] <imbrandon> gamecon takes some parms , you'll probably have to google for the exact ones
[01:49] <superm1> its very possible the adapter is broken though too.  i did a *very* ghetto soldering job on it, and have moved several times since then
[01:49] <imbrandon> heh
[02:15] <zul> hey
[02:15] <LaserJock> hi zul
[02:15] <zul> how is it going laserjock?
[02:16] <LaserJock> oh ya know
[02:16] <LaserJock> got a little annoying fight on the forums going on
[02:16] <imbrandon> heya zul\
[02:16] <LaserJock> but I'm about done with that
[02:16] <zul> heh...im back in ottawa finally
[02:16] <zul> just ignore the forums you'll live longer
[02:17] <zul> hey imbrandon
[02:17] <zul> flight back sucked
[02:17] <imbrandon> ouch
[02:19] <zul> i was 2 hours late getting to ottawa, the toilet wasnt working, the flight was overbooked, and they changed the gates 3 times
[02:19] <imbrandon> wow
[02:20] <zul> im never ever flying american again
[02:23] <superm1> zul if your not in a hurry, you have to try to capitalize on those overbookings.  i got a voucher for 300 USD and an overnight stay at a very nice hotel in raleigh last time i was on a plane that was overbooked.
[02:23] <superm1> just "volunteer" your seat in those cases
[02:24] <zul> meh...i wanted to get home
[02:24] <superm1> now i try to plan all my trips with a day of leeway on at least one end so that I can take advantage if i get the chance
[02:35] <LaserJock> \o/
[02:36] <sladen> zul: overbooking == $profitable$
[02:39] <imbrandon> heya sladen and Hobbsee
[02:39] <Hobbsee> heya imbrandon
[02:42] <minghua> hi LaserJock, imbrandon and Hobbsee
[02:43] <LaserJock> hi minghua
[02:43] <minghua> LaserJock: what is so exciting?
[02:44] <Hobbsee> hey minghua!
[02:44] <Hobbsee> hey LaserJock
[02:45] <LaserJock> minghua: I'm manipulating the gnome menu
[02:45] <Hobbsee> nice :)
[02:45] <minghua> oh that.  I had quite some fun the other day, too
[02:45] <Hobbsee> to make it become like kde?
[02:47] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: I'm implementing a dynamic group-driven menu system for Edubuntu
[02:47] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: nice :)
[02:48] <LaserJock> we'll see ;-)
[02:48] <LaserJock> I was able to do a basic implementation during edgy
[02:48] <LaserJock> but it didn't have any kind of editing really
[02:48] <LaserJock> it was fixed but dynamic ;-)
[02:49] <imbrandon> lol
[02:49] <minghua_> isn't that an oxymoron?
[02:49] <LaserJock> not exactly
[02:49] <LaserJock> depends on what is fixed and what is dynamic :-)
[02:49] <imbrandon> dynamic but not editable
[02:49] <LaserJock> exactly
[02:49] <LaserJock> I made it so that the menu changes depending on what groups a user belongs to
[02:49] <minghua> I thought that's usually called immutable in CS
[02:50] <LaserJock> but you can't edit the individual group menus
[02:50] <LaserJock> minghua: good thing I'm not in CS then ;-)
[02:50] <imbrandon> hahaha
[02:50] <LaserJock> so now I'm trying to figure out how to be able to edit my menus with alacarte
[02:50] <zul> man this show is so not original
[02:51] <imbrandon> LaserJock, i would assume it would need a seperate tool
[02:51] <LaserJock> nah, I just need a wrapper
[02:51] <LaserJock> and some inventiveness ;-)
[02:51] <imbrandon> heh
[02:52] <imbrandon> ( this cycle )
[02:52] <LaserJock> basically setting XDG_CONFIG_HOME and then making my menu structure match what alacarte expects
[02:52] <imbrandon> LaserJock, ahhh ok
[02:52] <imbrandon> LaserJock, i thought you would be doing it diffrent, but that makes sense
[02:52] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I already did a Main merge
[02:52] <imbrandon> heh nice
[02:52] <LaserJock> imbrandon: well, writing a menu editor from scratch isn't nice :-)
[02:54] <LaserJock> imbrandon: if I want to join the uber MOTU clan I've got to put in some Main work ;-)
[02:55] <imbrandon> hehe
[02:55] <imbrandon> i was just checking on my merges, i have more in main then universe this timw
[02:55] <imbrandon> time*
[02:56] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: we have two ex-DPLs on staff, not one
[02:56] <imbrandon> bdale and benc ? isnt it
[02:57] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: hence why I said at least
[02:57] <Burgundavia> bdale is HP
[02:57] <Burgundavia> iwj and BenC
[02:57] <imbrandon> ahh
[02:57] <Burgundavia> mdz is a former security team member
[02:57] <LaserJock> I knew iwj and thought BenC
[02:57] <imbrandon> i dident know iwj was one, i knew benc was
[02:57] <minghua> the ber MOTU clan?  the one crimsun is in? :-P
[02:57] <imbrandon> minghua, the one crimsun is he-man of :)
[02:58] <imbrandon> what was battlecats coward name ?
[02:58] <Burgundavia> just responded on http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1750220&posted=1#post1750220
[02:58] <zul> cringer
[02:58] <imbrandon> cringer, thats it, i'm cringer :)
[02:58] <imbrandon> heheh
[02:59] <zul> heh who is the man at arms
[02:59] <zul> or something like that
[02:59] <imbrandon> hehe
[03:00] <zul> he-man.org
[03:02] <minghua> Hmmm.
[03:02] <Hobbsee> that's scary
[03:02] <Hobbsee> minghua: me too :P
[03:03] <imbrandon> not really considering hes from debian , e.g. old school, that seems really normal
[03:03] <Hobbsee> minghua: mind you, it is nice to have an irc client while installing
[03:04] <minghua> Hobbsee: very true
[03:04] <imbrandon>  /uptime
[03:04] <imbrandon> grr
[03:05] <minghua> and dealing with XFree86 3.3 on my savage graphical card
[03:11] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: thanks ;-)
[03:12] <LaserJock> hmm, do we need to specifically list the Ubuntu changes that we drop in a merge?
[03:12] <LaserJock> or just the ones we keep?
[03:12] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: the latter, i believe
[03:12] <Hobbsee> cant see the point of the former
[03:12] <LaserJock> well, don't we need to list all the changes for a sync dropping Ubuntu changes?
[03:13] <LaserJock> it's been a while since I read the emails on that
[03:14] <Laser_away> bbl, off to the evil Walmart
[03:14] <Hobbsee> Laser_away: yes
[03:14] <imbrandon> later Laser_away
[03:14] <Hobbsee> Laser_away: that being said, some wont follow policy, and some will miss bits - so it's probably better to read it anyway
[03:24] <minghua> Burgundavia: thanks for the link of Bryce Harrington's blog, I like it a lot and agree on almost everything
[03:25] <minghua> hey Seveas, are you still in charge of handing out ubuntu member IRC cloaks?
[03:26] <Seveas> minghua, what's your lp id?
[03:28] <minghua> Seveas: minghua - https://launchpad.net/people/minghua  thanks :-)
[03:37] <superm1> oh imbrandon, i was going to ask you too.  did rt ever get back to you about setting up the mailing list for ubuntu-mythtv?
[03:38] <imbrandon> not yet, i dident do it at the summit and all the rt@ are in SF at the all hands meeting
[03:39] <imbrandon> sooo it will probably be next week
[03:40] <DBO> he imbrandon =)
[03:40] <DBO> s/e/ey/
[03:40] <imbrandon> heya DBO
[03:40] <DBO> not meaning to bug but any progress on those packages? =)
[03:40] <imbrandon> superm1, sorry some things are going so fast these few weeks and some soo slow :)
[03:41] <DBO> (I recognize you probably just got back)
[03:41] <imbrandon> DBO, yea they are done but not ready to upload yet, still kinda hackish
[03:41] <imbrandon> i'll see if i can finish them tonight
[03:41] <imbrandon> hopefully
[03:41] <DBO> imbrandon, I'll owe you one or two
[03:41] <DBO> let me know if there is anything the Beryl guys can do for you
[03:44] <imbrandon> heh nothing really at this poit except be just finishing them, but i'm sure there will be something soonish :)
[03:44] <imbrandon> mt dew run brb
[03:49] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: stay away from that stuff
[03:51] <lfittl> hmm, are 3 positive votes from motu-sru for uploading to proposed?
[03:51] <Hobbsee> minghua: you have seen his fridge, havent you?
[03:51] <lfittl> s/for/enough for/
[03:51] <minghua> Hobbsee: you mean the picture with nothing but Mt. Dew in it? yes.
[03:52] <minghua> lfittl: I believe so.  3/4 from what I remember
[03:53] <Hobbsee> minghua: yep   :P
[03:54] <lfittl> k, thanks, finally I can upload this :)
[03:58] <minghua> now I need to install gnome-terminal first :-P
[03:58] <Hobbsee> hah
[03:58] <Hobbsee> konsole works nicely
[03:58] <Hobbsee> there's one thing that disturbs me about gnome-terminal
[03:58] <Hobbsee> i think it's gnome-terminal - it might be xterm though.
[03:58] <imbrandon> there is many things, but thats another story
[03:58] <Hobbsee> it doesnt let me use backspace
[03:59] <Hobbsee> (at least on my old machine)
[03:59] <minghua> nah.  no way I can change a terminal to work in, like you can't switch my editor
[03:59] <Hobbsee> it's just a shell
[03:59] <Hobbsee> any terminal will give you a bash shell, or whatever you want
[03:59] <imbrandon> :)
[03:59] <minghua> for some people the whole "desktop" is web browser and terminal :-)
[04:00] <Hobbsee> yeah, well
[04:00] <Hobbsee> they're just crazy :P
[04:00] <minghua> (and I am actually quite close, probably plus xchat-gnome)
[04:00] <imbrandon> minghua, there are other programs ?
[04:00] <minghua> heh
[04:00] <imbrandon> ouch, good thing you have konversation now, i can see using gnome-term, but not xchat
[04:00] <minghua> imbrandon: yes, frozen bubble!
[04:00] <imbrandon> whew
[04:00] <Hobbsee> hehe
[04:01] <minghua> xchat-gnome is actually quite different from xchat
[04:01] <minghua> but I suppose it doesn't make enough difference to you KDE guys
[04:01] <Hawkwind> Yes it does actually
[04:01] <imbrandon> yea xchat-gnome not only sucks as much as xchat but on top of that it sticks all the settings in the registry^Wgconf
[04:02] <imbrandon> :)
[04:02] <Hawkwind> Bahhhhhhhh @ imbrandon
[04:02] <Hawkwind> Xchat is by far the most superior GUI IRC client available.  It's used and wanted by more users than xchat-gnome and also updated more often.
[04:03] <Hawkwind> IMO xchat-gnome should *not* be in main over xchat.  But I've also filed a bug/wishlist about this subject
[04:03] <imbrandon> matter of opinion :)
[04:03] <Hawkwind> And my opinion counts! :-)
[04:03] <imbrandon> on both counts :)
[04:08] <minghua> Hmm, so Kubuntu does install libgtk2.0-0 by default
[04:08] <imbrandon> not iirc
[04:08] <minghua> well, maybe only for alternative
[04:08] <minghua> but it's here on my fresh install
[04:10] <minghua> bluez-pin depends on it here
[04:10] <minghua> and libglade2-0
[04:10] <imbrandon> ahh must be a mistake, thanks for pointing it out, i'll get that bug fixed
[04:10] <imbrandon> :)
[04:11] <minghua> do you KDE guys know that openoffice.org-core depends on libgtk2.0-0?
[04:12] <imbrandon> yes we know, and thus why feisty+1 wont have oo.o :)
[04:12] <minghua> Hmm, may god bless Kubuntu users then
[04:17] <imbrandon> actualy it makes alot of sense, but thats another story , i'll get into it later
[04:19] <Hobbsee> if we were doing that, we could include firefox, surely!  *g*
[04:20] <minghua> I heard KOffice is making good progress, but it's still hard to believe it will be ready to replace OO.o at feisty+1 frame
[04:21] <minghua> Hobbsee: I care about that mainly because one of my package went through heavy surgery in ubuntu to split out gtk dependencies
[04:22] <Hobbsee> minghua: true
[04:22] <minghua> just because JRiddell doesn't want a Kubuntu install-by-default package to depend on gtk
[04:23] <minghua> so I am quite astonished to see that it doesn't make any difference anyway
[04:23] <imbrandon> its not that he dosent want it to depend on gtk, its that we promote kde apps not "best of breed" like suse or others
[04:23] <imbrandon> and koffice2 ( kde 4 ) will be in feisty+1
[04:24] <imbrandon> and will have oasis and doc support by then so yes, it does make sense
[04:24] <imbrandon> instead of loading two libs
[04:24] <imbrandon> it only will load one set
[04:24] <imbrandon> also will save tons of room on the cd
[04:24] <imbrandon> to the tone of 75-90mb
[04:24] <imbrandon> :)
[04:25] <minghua> if koffice will have decent open document support, then I suppose yes, it does make sense
[04:25] <imbrandon> if we did best of breed it would make sense to use ff and gaim , and coutless others
[04:25] <Hobbsee> ick, gaim
[04:25] <minghua> but I honestly doubt koffice will be ready by then
[04:26] <imbrandon> minghua, then you havent been following it closely, the 2 branch already has decient support for it ( just not stable right now becouse of the underlying libs )
[04:28] <minghua> of course I haven't followed it closely
[04:28] <imbrandon> :)
[04:28] <minghua> but koffice 2 hasn't made a stable release yet, has it?
[04:29] <imbrandon> no obviously not ( as it depends on kde4 libs )
[04:29] <minghua> and my general feeling is that an office suite program needs about one year to settle down after first stable release
[04:29] <imbrandon> and thats only in snapshot2 atm, with a beta scheduled for dec sometime
[04:30] <minghua> (first public beta, let's say)
[04:30] <minghua> hmm
[04:30] <minghua> so that's going to be this Dec to next Oct
[04:30] <imbrandon> minghua, then many many many, disagree with that, infact
[04:30] <minghua> maybe it will work
[04:30] <imbrandon> thats the first i've heard anyone say it
[04:31] <minghua> imbrandon: the "need one year to stablize" thing?
[04:31] <imbrandon> yes
[04:31] <minghua> well, let's wait and see then
[04:31] <minghua> I admit it's not an educated guess
[04:31] <ajmitch> hi
[04:31] <sladen> can OOo instead be 'fixed' to not depend on Gtk?
[04:32] <minghua> but let me remind you one thing -- support for English doesn't count as "good enough support to open document"
[04:32] <imbrandon> sladen, sure, but it cant be "fixed" to intergrate gracefully into the kde desktop ( and dont say it can use kde dialogs, its about much more that the widgets )
[04:32] <minghua> s/English/English only/
[04:34] <imbrandon> who said anything about english only? and a document "format" dosent require translations , and if you mean koffice, its been arround far longer than a year and has great translation support
[04:37] <imbrandon> anyhow not trying to start a war, but change isnt always a bad thing :) and yes this has been in the works for months and will take many more months to make sure it go's smooth and works right , its not a hap hazard transition
[04:37] <imbrandon> dont think that
[04:38] <minghua> imbrandon: no I know you are not trying to start a war (hope you think I am not, too)
[04:38] <imbrandon> no no not at all, just wanted to make sure you dident think it was a gtk / qt thing, as it go's much deeper than the toolkit
[04:38] <imbrandon> but yea
[04:38] <minghua> the thing is, you never will know what Chinese processing bug you are going to have until you have a bunch of Chinese users test it on a daily basis
[04:39] <imbrandon> minghua, very true, but that dosent stop change, nor realeases ( rember feisty+1 wont be a LTS also )
[04:40] <minghua> so unless Koffice is developed in a very different way, or the Koffice developers are very genius, I'll bet there will be plenty of bugs when handling languages other than English
[04:40] <minghua> interface translation is the easiest part of l10n for an office suite program
[04:40] <imbrandon> i dont see how unless they are already there
[04:41] <minghua> imbrandon: I have no problem with the decision to replace OO.o with Koffice
[04:41] <imbrandon> no what i mean is you are talking like koffice is a new program, its been arround for YEARS
[04:41] <minghua> imbrandon:I think I didn't say "useless" anywhere?
[04:41] <imbrandon> bug like that would have shown their head by now :)
[04:42] <minghua> hmm.  maybe the kde3 to kde4 switch is not as big as I think it is then
[04:42] <minghua> but still, I have heard of _zero_ Chinese user who use Koffice on a daily basis
[04:43] <minghua> we'll see.  I don't really care about Koffice that much anyway :-P
[04:46] <imbrandon> wow , you would be 1 out of 1000 kubuntu users that do
[04:46] <imbrandon> hehe
[04:47] <minghua> don't count me as a kubuntu user yet ;-)
[04:47] <minghua> but I think I know another one
[04:48] <imbrandon> :)
[04:48] <imbrandon> some people seem to really like it, untill it breaks their install
[04:49] <imbrandon> its one of those love or hate things
[04:49] <imbrandon> just a word of caution though so your not in the "breaks the install category" dont install anything that ask's you a debconf question durring install
[04:49] <imbrandon> :)
[04:49] <minghua> bug 70251
[04:49] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 70251 in r-base "the R package depends of GCC 3.4" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/70251
[04:50] <imbrandon> ( e.g. sun-java5-* )
[04:50] <minghua> I actually knew KDE has a separate APT GUI frontend from that bug report
[04:51] <minghua> imbrandon: huh?  so this adept manager can't deal with debconf questions at all?
[04:52] <imbrandon> it tries, and fails, then dpkg dies and unless you fiddle with the /var/run/dpkg/something/lock your screwed on installing or remoiving apps
[04:52] <minghua> any you guys put this as default in edgy release?  geez.
[04:52] <imbrandon> know issue ( as in we know adept sucks and are working on it but dont expect much soon )
[04:52] <imbrandon> its been like that since dapper
[04:52] <imbrandon> if not before
[04:53] <minghua> I don't know how many packages ask debconf questions on the default level (high?), but I imagine quite a bit
[04:53] <imbrandon> nah acctualy only 2 that are commonly installed
[04:53] <imbrandon> kdm/gdm IF you have both installed, and sun-java5-*
[04:56] <Hobbsee> minghua: the precursor to adept sucked even more.
[04:58] <minghua> you guys should just bite the bullet and recommend synaptic :-P
[04:59] <imbrandon> i doubt that will ever happen
[04:59] <Laser_away> why can't you just make a qt port of synaptic
[04:59] <Laser_away> oh yeah, kynaptic or something
[04:59] <imbrandon> Laser_away, there is ksynaptic , but its not finished and no progress
[04:59] <imbrandon> but thats my call
[05:00] <imbrandon> but its not the majority
[05:03] <Laser_away> synaptic has a lot of nice features
[05:03] <Laser_away> it's kinda too bad
[05:04] <TheMuso> c
[05:04] <imbrandon> wb TheMuso
[05:04] <minghua> Urgh.
[05:04] <TheMuso> Hey imbrandon.
[05:05] <imbrandon> minghua, go ahead , serouisly
[05:06] <minghua> imbrandon: even I can't follow up to reproduce, test bugfix, etc.?
[05:06] <imbrandon> someone will have to confirm etc
[05:06] <imbrandon> dosent have to be the same person
[05:06] <imbrandon> if your resonable sure its a bug , then yes
[05:07] <minghua> okay, since you asked nicely...
[05:07] <minghua> imbrandon: what is the binary package name?
[05:07] <imbrandon> adept iirc
[05:07] <imbrandon> is the source package
[05:07] <imbrandon> ( to file the bugs )
[05:07] <minghua> binary package is adept, too, it seems
[05:08] <minghua> no
[05:08] <minghua> it's adept-manager, it seems
[05:08] <minghua> I believe LP can find the source package for me
[05:09] <imbrandon> yea
[05:09] <minghua> (I was selling this idea in the channel earlier today)
[05:09] <imbrandon> what idea?
[05:09] <minghua> (and that was an embarrassing story...)
[05:09] <minghua> where the binary-package hint in the bug report comes from
[05:11] <minghua> Eww.  Who thought using underscore in the name of a /usr/bin/ program is a good idea?
[05:19] <minghua> imbrandon: bug 71596 for you
[05:19] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 71596 in adept "adept-manager: should either ignore unmounted CD in sources.list or at least try other sources first" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71596
[05:20] <minghua> I also noticed adept doesn't have a bug contact, which is a big no-no IMO for a main package
[05:20] <Simon80> yeah
[05:20] <Simon80> well.. they can file bug reports
[05:27] <imbrandon> minghua, if you wish set the bug contact to kubuntu-team
[05:27] <imbrandon> err wait you cant unless you a member, one sec
[05:28] <ajmitch> alright, now I feel a little more alive :)
[05:28] <imbrandon> ahhh ajmitch is back :)
[05:28] <imbrandon> good trip?
[05:28] <LaserJock> ajmitch!!
[05:28] <ajmitch> imbrandon: I said hello earlier :P
[05:29] <imbrandon> ahh i missed it
[05:29] <ajmitch> yeah, it was ok
[05:29] <imbrandon> :)
[05:29] <imbrandon> i'm still getting used to being at home
[05:29] <ajmitch> uneventful
[05:29] <imbrandon> lol
[05:29] <ajmitch> now I feel like getting some food
[05:29] <Hobbsee> hey ajmitch!
[05:29] <imbrandon> now that i'm home i can upgrade my lappy to feisty without worry :)
[05:30] <LaserJock> heh
[05:30] <ajmitch> hi Hobbsee
[05:33] <minghua> imbrandon: I filed this bug for you, not KDE or Kubuntu.  And if nobody answer/triage it, don't expect to report any bugs against KDE packages soon ;-)
[05:33] <minghua> hi ajmitch
[05:33] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: rofl!  i can confirm one of the amarok bugs
[05:33] <minghua> (sorry for missing your previous hello)
[05:34] <imbrandon> minghua, hehe ok i'll be sure to check on it personaly even if i cant fix it, i'll try to make sure it does
[05:34] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, what one ?
[05:34] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: bug 55585
[05:34] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 55585 in amarok "Amarok hangs when holding down of next/previous track hotkey" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/55585
[05:34] <imbrandon> kk
[05:34] <Hobbsee> based on what it was playing, it sounded rather amusing
[05:35] <Hobbsee> eventually i had to kill the thing, else it wouldnt shut up
[05:35] <imbrandon> heh
[05:36] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: i might ask about that one upstream?
[05:36] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, yea probably, thats what i was going to do to start off
[05:36] <imbrandon> minghua, i changed the bugmail settings for adept too now, thanks for noticing that
[05:36] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: well, i just hit confirmed and dropped it in their channel
[05:37] <minghua> imbrandon: no problem, glad I can help :-)
[05:37] <imbrandon> The "Kubuntu Team" team was successfully subscribed to all bugmail in adept in ubuntu
[05:37] <imbrandon> ^^ quote from LP
[05:39] <Hobbsee> what packages are possible to install to provide dvd playback?
[05:39] <Hobbsee> apart from libdvdread3 binary, and the script associated iwth that?
[05:39] <imbrandon> front ends or do you mean libdvdcss stuff ?
[05:39] <Hobbsee> anything apart from libdvdcss - but that kind of stuff
[05:39] <Hobbsee> +  * Removed install-css.sh which is useless since we have binary packages
[05:39] <Hobbsee> +    on debian-unofficial.org (Closes: #390544).
[05:39] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, shouldent need anything else other than that and a player
[05:40] <Hobbsee> ie, do we have anything other packages like that?  i jus tsaw that debian bug
[05:40] <imbrandon> ahh none in that case, we need to keep it
[05:40] <Hobbsee> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=390544
[05:40] <Ubugtu> Debian bug 390544 in libdvdread3 "libdvdread3: temp file vulnerability in install-css.sh" [Serious,Closed]
[05:40] <imbrandon> well we have libdvdcss2 from seveas's repos
[05:40] <imbrandon> but nothing official
[05:40] <Hobbsee> hmmm
[05:41] <imbrandon> as we cant becouse of leagle issues etc
[05:41] <Hobbsee> well, yeah
[05:41] <Hobbsee> unless it got put in multiverse
[05:41] <imbrandon> very very very few used that script anyhow, they just got the packages from plf or seveas
[05:42] <imbrandon> no i dont think it can even go in multiverse afaik
[05:42] <imbrandon> basicly becouse its not a patent issue its a issue of the actual source is illeagle in the US and other places
[05:43] <LaserJock> anybody know of any "Here's how you port gtk/qt apps to qt/gtk" guides?
[05:43] <imbrandon> thus even hosting the source on a US mirror would not be leagle
[05:43] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: i realise that.  i'm wondering if i can ignore what debian's said, and just merge it, with that script in it anyway
[05:44] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, well thats what i would do is merge and keep the script BUT check on the vunerability is fixed
[05:44] <imbrandon> OR if its not drop it as they did as the package is avail via third part repos as they did
[05:44] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: that requires figuring out what the vulnerability is.  seeing as it seems a straight use of wget....
[05:44] <imbrandon> e.g. debian-unofficial or seveas
[05:45] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: http://rafb.net/paste/results/6DyF8f86.html
[05:45] <ajmitch> someone hand me caffeine please
[05:46] <ajmitch> I know imbrandon will have some on hand
[05:46] <poningru> realist: libdvdcss is illegal in the US due to the DMCA
[05:46] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, looks sane to me but it does use /tmp , you might check with some other expert other than me
[05:46] <poningru> err s/realist/re:
[05:47] <imbrandon> poningru, correct
[05:47] <Hobbsee> hmm
[05:47] <poningru> also some have come up with patent reasons
[05:47] <imbrandon> but the issue is with the source, not the binaly forms of it or redist etc, thuis even hosting the source you can get in trubble
[05:48] <poningru> right
[05:48] <imbrandon> like one person was sued and lost when he printed the source on a t-shirt and wore it
[05:48] <imbrandon> thus the reason it cant even be in multiverse
[05:48] <poningru> actually that was the decss dvd key
[05:48] <imbrandon> right but libdvdcss2 uses that :)
[05:49] <poningru> but that is no longer illegal since the only protection it had was the tradesecret
[05:50] <imbrandon> its all kinda stupid tbh but we cant circumvent it atm, i would recomend Hobbsee dropping the script untill the vunerability can be verified NOT to be there as the changelog says as the deb is avail from debian-unofficial and seveas
[05:50] <poningru> imbrandon++
[05:51] <Hobbsee> fair enough
[05:52] <imbrandon> like i said looks sane to me but i'm not a security expert , etc etc etc
[05:54] <crimsun> it's vulnerable to any number of attacks
[05:54] <Hobbsee> yeah
[05:54] <crimsun> it's not chowned or umasked properly; the PATH isn't set properly, etc.
[05:54] <Hobbsee> so's running any script as root - is amarok's any better?
[05:55] <imbrandon> yes amarok has checks in place
[05:55] <Hobbsee> ah right
[05:55] <Hobbsee> oh yay
[05:55] <imbrandon> ajmitch, installing kubuntu ? hehe
[05:55] <Hobbsee> I LOVE PEOPLE STEALING MY MERGES AND NOT TELLING ME ABOUT THEM!!!!!   ARGH!!!!
[05:56] <LaserJock> shesh
[05:56] <ajmitch> imbrandon: nah, blogging
[05:56] <imbrandon> ajmitch, ahhh rock on
[05:56] <Hobbsee> this has happened about 5 times so far!
[05:56] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: may I steal some?
[05:56] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: who has been stealing them?
[05:56] <imbrandon> ajmitch, fix universe :)
[05:56] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: sure, but please actually tell me about them
[05:56] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: non MOTU's
[05:56] <ajmitch> imbrandon: nah, I'll fix main
[05:56] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: and have they been uploaded?
[05:56] <imbrandon> hehe
[05:57] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: nope.  they've been assigned to MOTU, and left to sit
[05:57] <LaserJock> so when has this "owning" of merges start :-)
[05:57] <ajmitch> LaserJock: start of edgy or so
[05:57] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: it says on MOM
[05:57] <crimsun> go raging motuaholic, go!
[05:57] <Hobbsee> If you are not the previous uploader, ask the previous uploader before doing the merge. This prevents two people from doing the same work.
[05:57] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: so people have been contributing fixes, and you don't like that?
[05:57] <imbrandon> ajmitch, haha that was my thinking
[05:58] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: it's not that i dont like that - i do.  it's the fact that they do for stuff that's listed as me, i do the same, without checking LP first, then figure it all out and go "oh damn, someone's already done this, now i've just done the work again"
[05:58] <imbrandon> i'm likie and thats a bad thing? ( kinda sucks if you dont look first , but its a good thing(tm)
[05:58] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: people are just eager to help :)
[05:58] <Hobbsee> i mean, obviously i should be looking first, but the double work isnt necessary.  we dont have the people to be able to do that!
[05:58] <LaserJock> well, this is why we  shouldn't be relying on merges.ubuntu.com for this
[05:59] <LaserJock> we should need "ownership" of merges to help us keep track
[05:59] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: what else are people using though?
[05:59] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: we used to use a revu page
[05:59] <LaserJock> that was much better for this
[05:59] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, obviously LP also :)
[05:59] <crimsun> the revu page is still subject to the same race condition that merges.uc has
[06:00] <LaserJock> well, except with the revu page you file a bug to "lock" the merge
[06:00] <Hobbsee> it's a problem with syncs - as those are waiting a while to go thru, so the probability of them already being done is higher
[06:00] <ajmitch> people can still duplicate work, no matter what
[06:00] <LaserJock> there is no way of indicating status on merges.ubuntu.com
[06:00] <crimsun> precisely, bmonty and I raced on merges numerous times
[06:01] <LaserJock> sure it can happen, but I thought it was much easier to see what was going on with the revu page
[06:01] <crimsun> feisty-changes isn't reliable, either, since some uploads aren't announced
[06:03] <Hobbsee> indeed
[06:03] <Hobbsee> wish they'd stolen the merges i didnt want to do :P
[06:03] <imbrandon> lol
[06:04] <minghua> two bugs I am trying to produce by doing this Kubuntu install, to no avail :-(
[06:05] <Hobbsee> yay, i can request a sync that *hasnt* already been done!
[06:08] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: I solved the issue by doing virtually no merges in Edgy
[06:08] <Hobbsee> crimsun: mind if i request a sync for kmldonkey?
[06:08] <LaserJock> I don't own much of anything
[06:08] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: heh, i was thinking fo that
[06:08] <ajmitch> LaserJock: yeah, I have basically nothing
[06:08] <ajmitch> yay for me being lazy
[06:08] <crimsun> Hobbsee: not at all
[06:09] <Hobbsee> crimsun: :)
[06:09] <Hobbsee> crimsun: and that's a really werid way to call dh_iconcache
[06:09] <crimsun> I don't even remember what put into the delta
[06:09] <crimsun> what I put, even
[06:10] <Hobbsee> the long way of calling it, instead of just "dh_iconcache"
[06:12] <LaserJock> well, I would have probably done more merges but I didn't see any way of assessing merge status
[06:13] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, the feisty pbuilder has those hooks now too
[06:13] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: yay :)
[06:14] <LaserJock> imbrandon: hooks for what?
[06:14] <crimsun> from the pbuilder examples
[06:14] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: pbuilder hooks - b91dpkg-i and c10shell, in particular
[06:14] <imbrandon> some hooks that were built from examples Hobbsee wanted me to use on my dev build machine
[06:14] <LaserJock> oh
[06:14] <minghua> Hmm, so what is this dh_iconcache thing?  something specific to ubuntu?
[06:14] <Hobbsee> (direct copies, actually)
[06:15] <imbrandon> minghua, it was a ubuntu transition , but now its in the gnome.mk and kde.mk cdbs files so no longer needed for the most part
[06:15] <Hobbsee> minghua: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DhIconCacheChanges
[06:15] <Hobbsee> which reminds me - it's needed in network-manager - i saw a bug about it
[06:16] <imbrandon> minghua, started close to the begining of dapper dev cycle iirc
[06:16] <minghua> thanks imbrandon and Hobbsee
[06:17] <minghua> the mail linked from the wiki is dated April 2006
[06:17] <minghua> so _end_ of dapper cycle
[06:17] <minghua> and no wonder I didn't pay attention to it
[06:18] <imbrandon> yea somewhere in there heh
[06:20] <LaserJock> grrr, you know what I have the hardest time finding in LP? .debs
[06:20] <LaserJock> it takes me so many stinking clicks to find them
[06:20] <ajmitch> LaserJock: it's only about 20 clicks to find them
[06:21] <minghua> there isn't a way to say "I don't want to receive mail for my own comments" in LP, is there?
[06:23] <ajmitch> minghua: not that I'm aware of
[06:23] <imbrandon> hrm Hobbsee the dpkg-i one is a little flakey, i might change it a bit
[06:23] <imbrandon> hen i get some time
[06:23] <Hobbsee> if you want
[06:23] <imbrandon> it doesnt try to install the deps
[06:24] <ajmitch> imbrandon: gdebi!
[06:24] <imbrandon> it just fails if dpkg -i doesnt work
[06:24] <imbrandon> ajmitch, heh
[06:24] <ajmitch> imbrandon: gdebi works well as a command-line-only tool
[06:25] <imbrandon> does it ? wow ok, i'll look at making the hook use that instead
[06:25] <ajmitch> you'd just have to put it into the extra packages part of the pbuilder config
[06:25] <Hobbsee> it doesnt?  i thought it did
[06:25] <Hobbsee> ahh
[06:25] <imbrandon> right
[06:27] <minghua> what is wrong with plain old debi?
[06:31] <minghua> so there is no chance to try these desktop bling if your graphical card isn't intel, nvidia, or ati?
[06:32] <imbrandon> minghua, basicly no ( thus not on by default )
[06:32] <Amaranth> ajmitch: you made it!
[06:32] <Amaranth> ajmitch: how was the train? :)
[06:32] <imbrandon> if it has direct rendering and composit is /should/ work
[06:32] <minghua> imbrandon: thanks.  I think I can forget about it for a while then
[06:33] <ajmitch> Amaranth: boring, but I ended up meeting up with a bunch of guys at millbrae
[06:33] <Amaranth> cool
[06:33] <minghua> I don't want to install ubuntu on either my laptop or the computer at school
[06:33] <ajmitch> how much did the taxi cost?
[06:33] <Amaranth> whiprush told me the train didn't even stop
[06:33] <Amaranth> $74
[06:33] <ajmitch> yeah, I waited for the 10:23 train
[06:33] <Amaranth> ick
[06:33] <ajmitch> got into the airport about the time your flight left
[06:33] <Amaranth> heh
[06:33] <Amaranth> i told the guy i was coming back soon so he gave me his card and a discount
[06:33] <ajmitch> ended up having lunch with some of the guys there
[06:33] <ajmitch> hehe
[06:34] <imbrandon> me and wasabbi ended up on the same flight home
[06:34] <imbrandon> well for the first leg of the trip
[06:34] <Amaranth> cool
[06:34] <ajmitch> yeah I saw wasabi in the airport as well
[06:34] <Amaranth> i was the bus dropping people off
[06:34] <Amaranth> but the guy wouldn't let me out the cab to say bye
[06:35] <imbrandon> wow, i was probably there at the same time then too, i told him to check the resurants at the intl term, i was eating at the term we got on and it sucked
[06:36] <Amaranth> it was like 10:15am
[06:36] <imbrandon> LaserJock, heh
[06:36] <Amaranth> 10:25am at the latest
[06:36] <imbrandon> yea i got to the airport about 10:30 my flight dident leave till 2:50 though
[06:36] <LaserJock> testing the dynamic menus login scripts is much handier with xnest
[06:39] <ajmitch> Amaranth: yeah, I didn't see wasabi until much later though
[06:39] <LaserJock> but I do hate menus :/
[06:39] <Amaranth> i ran into whiprush in minneapolis
[06:40] <Amaranth> different airports, different flight times, we landed at almost the same time there :)
[06:45] <LaserJock> \o/
[06:47] <LaserJock> hmmm, my wife is making fun of MOTU
[06:47] <imbrandon> lol
[06:47] <ajmitch> oh dear
[06:47] <imbrandon> hows that?
[06:47] <imbrandon> you tell her about council greyskull yet ? LOL
[06:47] <LaserJock> she was just trying to call our esteemed origin sheman
[06:47] <crimsun> she's just making fun of us mere mortals, not you celebs like the raging motuaholic and imbrandon
[06:48] <imbrandon> heh
[06:48] <LaserJock> whatever
[06:49] <ajmitch> I'll have to settle for being mortal like crimsun :)
[06:49] <ajmitch> LaserJock: go before the tech board then :)
[06:50] <LaserJock> ajmitch: in time, in time
[06:50] <imbrandon> crimsun is past deity status , he was brought up more than once as the model of a ubuntu developer
[06:50] <imbrandon> :)
[06:50] <crimsun> in that case we're screwed
[06:50] <imbrandon> HAHAHAHA
[06:50] <ajmitch> whereas I'm brought up as the example of what not to be :)
[06:51] <LaserJock> it takes all kinds
[06:52] <imbrandon> i should have 2 or 3 before the nights over
[06:52] <imbrandon> *hopefully* if it all go's smooth
[06:54] <imbrandon> hrm there is a automake-*-nonfree ? wow
[06:54] <ajmitch> of course
[06:54] <ajmitch> GFDL documentation
[06:54] <LaserJock> wahoo, it works, it works
[06:54] <ajmitch> LaserJock: of course it does, if the raging MOTUholic did it
[06:54] <Simon80> lol, GFDL = non-free
[06:54] <LaserJock> I can edit the menus with alacarte and all I have to do is take out one line of the resulting .menu file
[06:55] <imbrandon> Simon80, it is according to the dfsg
[06:55] <Simon80> I know
[06:55] <Simon80> but I haven't figured out why yet
[06:55] <Simon80> googling now
[06:55] <LaserJock> well, it's not GPL compatible
[06:55] <LaserJock> mostly the nasty stuff is in invariant sections I believe
[06:56] <Amaranth> LaserJock: what line?
[06:57] <LaserJock> it's deemed marginally dfsg free if there are no invariant sections
[06:57] <Amaranth> (yes, i do ding on 'alacarte')
[06:57] <imbrandon> alacarte alacarte alacarte alacarte
[06:57] <Amaranth> one ding per line :)
[06:58] <Simon80> http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml
[06:58] <LaserJock> Amaranth: if I edit something it adds a <AppDir>/home/mantha/.local/share/applications</AppDir>
[06:58] <Amaranth> LaserJock: ah, right
[06:58] <imbrandon> thats ok my "ding" is /usr/share/sounds/KDE_Beep_Ahem.wav
[06:58] <Amaranth> LaserJock: it should be adding XDG_DATA_HOME
[06:58] <ajmitch> back later
[06:58] <LaserJock> hmm, I guess that would be XDG_DATA_HOME
[06:58] <imbrandon> later
[06:59] <LaserJock> I just gave it XDG_CONFIG_HOME
[06:59] <LaserJock> let me try it
[06:59] <Amaranth> LaserJock: if it doesn't work please file a bug
[07:02] <LaserJock> Amaranth: it works, sweet
[07:02] <Amaranth> w00t
[07:02] <Amaranth> that line is important for unbreaking interactions with legacy menus, i'm glad you don't have to remove it
[07:02] <LaserJock> it even works when I add an item to the menu
[07:02] <Amaranth> fscking menu spec :P
[07:03] <LaserJock> I'm not exactly a big fan either
[07:03] <Amaranth> wait, no, smegging menu spec :)
[07:03] <LaserJock> a lot of the time it's a real pain
[07:03] <LaserJock> too vague
[07:03] <Amaranth> it's great for the use-case of "an ISV wants to drop something into a menu"
[07:03] <Amaranth> but then it just goes crazy for everything else
[07:04] <LaserJock> ok, so the only thing I think I won't be able to implement that I wanted to is bookmarks in the menus
[07:07] <Amaranth> bookmarks?
[07:07] <Amaranth> LaserJock: explain please, maybe we can do some magic
[07:07] <Amaranth> LaserJock: WinXP "Pin to Start Menu" kind of thing?
[07:07] <LaserJock> well basically I want to be able to drop in bookmarks into the menus
[07:08] <nixternal> oy!
[07:08] <LaserJock> so like in the Chemistry menu there would be a link to the chemisty web book, etc.
[07:08] <Amaranth> oh, right
[07:08] <Amaranth> easy
[07:08] <LaserJock> but gnome-menus doesn't respect Type=Link
[07:08] <Amaranth> right
[07:09] <LaserJock> so you have to create .desktops with Exec=firefox http://....
[07:09] <LaserJock> which then becomes a usability problem
[07:09] <Amaranth> eh?
[07:09] <LaserJock> because teachers should have to know that they have to make an item for a browser to open a URL
[07:10] <LaserJock> they should just be able to specify the URL
[07:10] <Amaranth> hmm
[07:10] <Amaranth> alacarte could do some magic in the backend for that, i suppose
[07:10] <LaserJock> so I could possibly add that to my GUI
[07:10] <Amaranth> but the real answer would be to all Type=Link support to gnome-menus
[07:10] <crimsun> err, did you mean "shouldn't" above?
[07:10] <Amaranth> up for a challenge? :)
[07:11] <Amaranth> crimsun: yes, he did :)
[07:11] <LaserJock> crimsun: for the first one yeah :-)
[07:11] <LaserJock> Amaranth: well, from what you said it sounds like gnome-menus isn't very active upstream
[07:11] <Amaranth> markmc just committed some stuff, actually
[07:11] <LaserJock> I'm not sure I'm code-savy enough to just hack into it
[07:11] <Amaranth> it might be a PITA getting him to do a code review though
[07:12] <LaserJock> I wonder if there is a gnome bug about it
[07:12] <Amaranth> oh, you want someone else to do it for you :)
[07:12] <Amaranth> i thought Type=Link was dropped from the spec since GNOME didn't support it
[07:12] <LaserJock> from what spec?
[07:13] <LaserJock> Gnome uses it for other things
[07:13] <LaserJock> just not in the menus
[07:14] <LaserJock> I think that is a little inconsistent
[07:14] <Amaranth> ah
[07:14] <Amaranth> heh
[07:14] <Amaranth> well, if there is already code to do it i wouldn't think making gnome-menus call that code would be hard
[07:15] <LaserJock> well, nautilus handles them fine on the desktop
[07:16] <LaserJock> I guess alacarte would have to handle editing them too
[07:17] <Amaranth> yeah, that wouldn't be so bad
[07:18] <LaserJock> maybe I'll file a bug in gnome
[07:18] <LaserJock> and mention it in my spec
[07:19] <LaserJock> and at least start something there
[07:19] <LaserJock> hopefully seb won't eat me alive
[07:19] <LaserJock> :-)
[07:24] <Amaranth> heh
[07:24] <Amaranth> brb, rebooting
[07:24] <minghua> why would seb eats LaserJock alive for this?
[07:25] <LaserJock> well, any time I've ever brought up .desktops or menus it hasn't ended well for me ;-)
[07:27] <minghua> oh I see
[07:28] <minghua> I think I remember something as well
[07:28] <LaserJock> the whole MOTU Science .desktop experience
[07:28] <minghua> must has to do with the Science category
[07:28] <LaserJock> and the first time I worked on dynamic menus he didn't want me touching gnome-menus
[07:28] <LaserJock> but that's ok, he has good reasons
[07:29] <LaserJock> I just get a little nervous about making the gnome guy mad :-)
[07:33] <LaserJock> hmm, so I count 74 open bugs for motureviewers and ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[07:34] <ajmitch> LaserJock: at 1 a minute, it won't take long
[07:34] <LaserJock> 1 a minute? that seems kinda fast
[07:34] <LaserJock> it takes my pbuilder that long to unpack the base.tgz :/
[07:34] <ajmitch> quite a few will be too trivial for edgy-updates, so you'll have to ask them to update the patch for feisty
[07:34] <ajmitch> so < 1 min for those
[07:35] <LaserJock> true
[07:46] <crimsun> argh, why are people filing sync requests for packages that will be brought in automatically?!
[07:46] <crimsun> cf. bug 71515
[07:46] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 71515 in Ubuntu "requesting sync xmms2 from Debian" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71515
[07:46] <crimsun> and to add insult to injury, u-a is subbed
[07:48] <Sp4rKy> hi there
[07:52] <minghua> as someone has said, people are just eager to help
[07:52] <LaserJock> crimsun: bummer
[07:52] <minghua> filing a sync request is easy
[07:52] <minghua> and we also share the blame for not having crystal-clear docs
[07:54] <minghua> I am not even sure about the procedure myself :-)
[07:55] <minghua> because that's what I do now
[07:58] <crimsun> how many different issues are in bug 71559?
[07:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 71559 in Ubuntu "libgcc_s.so.1 prob? libstdc++.so.1 and libgcj.so.70 complain about GCC_4.2.0 no being found" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71559
[07:59] <StevenK> Too eager, methinks.
[07:59] <imbrandon> lol
[08:01] <minghua> hmm, my question is actually how many issues mentioned in 71559 are about official packages
[08:04] <ajmitch> minghua: probably 0
[08:05] <minghua> that's what I thought
[08:06] <ajmitch> hm
[08:06] <ajmitch>   required from libgcc_s.so.1:
[08:06] <ajmitch>     0x0b792653 0x00 17 GCC_3.3
[08:06] <ajmitch>     0x09276060 0x00 16 GCC_4.2.0
[08:07] <ajmitch> for 4.1.1-13ubuntu5
[08:07] <ajmitch> (libstdc++6)
[08:07] <imbrandon> for those that havent seen it the i copied the kubuntu misfits to my webserver http://www.imbrandon.com/misc/uds_mtv/kubuntu_uds_mtv.jpg
[08:07] <ajmitch> scary people
[08:07] <imbrandon> heh
[08:07] <ajmitch> of course, you're holding mt dew...
[08:08] <imbrandon> right on, i cant be parted with my mt dew :)
[08:09] <crimsun> hmm, where is the "Enable Software sound mixing" checkbox in 6.10 (gnome)?
[08:10] <crimsun> System> Preferences> Sound> [which tab]
[08:10] <minghua> ajmitch: strange
[08:10] <ajmitch> the sounds tab
[08:10] <crimsun> ok, thanks
[08:11] <Toadstool> 15
[08:12] <Toadstool> uhuh :)
[08:12] <Toadstool> hey everybody
[08:12] <crimsun> 'lo Toadstool
[08:12] <Toadstool> hey crimsun
[08:12] <ajmitch> hi Toadstool
[08:13] <Toadstool> hi ajmitch
[08:13] <imbrandon> heya Toadstool
[08:13] <Toadstool> hey imbrandon :)
[08:14] <joejaxx> hello Toadstool imbrandon
[08:14] <imbrandon> lo
[08:14] <Toadstool> 'lo joejaxx
[08:14] <joejaxx> i am compiling <IP_ADDRESS> for my laptop
[08:14] <joejaxx> :)
[08:15] <ajmitch> imbrandon: a shame we didn't get a full group photo
[08:15] <imbrandon> yea , i figured we would
[08:16] <TheMuso> What? They didn't do a group photo this time?
[08:16] <ajmitch> nope
[08:16] <imbrandon> yea i dont have many either, but tons of people were taking them so i'll leach off flikr
[08:16] <joejaxx> TheMuso: i guess they forgot
[08:16] <imbrandon> TheMuso, nope, only the kubuntu group, no "everybody" one
[08:24] <joejaxx> is ipw2200 support in kernel upstream by default?
[08:26] <joejaxx> or is that a ubuntu patch
[08:29] <Lathiat> hrm i think it got merged didnt it?
[08:29] <crimsun> it's in upstream
[08:29] <Lathiat> it was an ubuntu patch for a while, tho
[08:29] <joejaxx> ok thanks
[08:33] <ajmitch> well, we should be getting GPLed java soon
[08:33] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: one hopes
[08:33] <joejaxx> nice
[08:33] <ajmitch> 'today', they say
[08:33] <Burgundavia> today?
[08:33] <ajmitch> yes
[08:34] <ajmitch> Nov 13th
[08:34] <Burgundavia> wow
[08:35] <Burgundavia> 9:30am
[08:35] <ajmitch> apparantly they're using the same gpl exception that gnu classpath uses
[08:35] <ajmitch> which would mean that they could share code where needed
[08:35] <Burgundavia> that would rock
[08:36] <imbrandon> nice then compile for ppc and move to main :)
[08:36] <ajmitch> I guess we'll find out the details in a few hours
[08:37] <imbrandon> i bet the server will be hammered with downloads
[08:37] <imbrandon> ( sun's download page )
[08:37] <Burgundavia> nice thing about being in the same timezone as most of the these big tech companies: they do press announcements during your business day
[08:38] <Lutin> slomo: ping
[08:38] <slomo> Lutin: pong
[08:39] <Lutin> slomo: I'd like to package tapioca-sharp (http://tapioca-voip.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/SubProjects) but I can't understand the mono naming policy. would you tell me how I should name the package ?
[08:40] <slomo> Lutin: how are the assemblies named?
[08:41] <Lutin> ajmitch: why ?
[08:41] <ajmitch> I was planning to do so once I got home
[08:41] <slomo> Lutin: INdT.Tapioca.dll? then libtapiocaX.Y-cil, libindt-tapiocaX.Y-cil or one of those two without the X.Y if it's unstable API packaging
[08:41] <slomo> ajmitch: giskard already packaged t-s since weeks already anyway
[08:42] <ajmitch> that's useful to know
[08:42] <ajmitch> then the package on revu is a bit redundant
[08:42] <slomo> no idea why it's not uploaded yet
[08:42] <Lutin> ajmitch: I know, I didn"t see there was a bzr branch of t-sharp before uploading
[08:42] <Lutin> the pacakge pon revu should be nuked
[08:42] <Lutin> on*
[08:43] <ajmitch> I'll kill it then
[08:43] <slomo> Lutin: ok, one of the two without X.Y as it has alp's dbus implementation and must not go into the gac yet
[08:43] <Lutin> slomo: ok
[08:45] <Lutin> slomo: do you have idea when t-sharp will be uploaded ?
[08:45] <slomo> Lutin: ask giskard :) no idea
[08:46] <Lutin> ok slomo, thanks
[08:46] <Lutin> giskard: around ?
[09:28] <imbrandon> lol
[09:30] <imbrandon> hrm
[09:33] <minghua> imbrandon: it's said to be moderated now
[09:34] <imbrandon> hrm thats strange
[09:34] <Chandu> hi
[09:34] <imbrandon> shouldent be now that uploads are open
[09:35] <Chandu> How tasksel package works with the installer
[09:35] <minghua> imbrandon: ask Fujitsu, he seems to know more
[09:38] <Chandu> hey Ubuntu is building a single cd distro with openoffice with D_I
[09:39] <Burgundavia> Chandu: sorry, I am having a hard time understanding exactly what you want
[09:40] <Chandu> Burgundavia, I want to build a single cd distro (How Ubuntu is there ) with openoffice , ngome desktop and few other applications ..
[09:40] <Burgundavia> right
[09:40] <Chandu> Burgundavia, I am using Debian G-I , Iam able to create the image ..but tha pacakges what I have mentioend in my tasks list of debian-cd are not installing
[09:40] <Burgundavia> what specifically do you need to change from Ubuntu?
[09:41] <ivoks> so, what's the thing with binary drivers?
[09:41] <ivoks> will ubuntu really shipp them by default?
[09:41] <Chandu> Burgundavia, Not change from Ubuntu ..I want to know the steps to follow to come out with a single cd
[09:41] <Burgundavia> ivoks: afaics, yes
[09:41] <ivoks> hm... yes?
[09:41] <ivoks> looks like i'm returning to debian :/
[09:41] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AcceleratedX
[09:42] <Burgundavia> I imagine the debate is going to get a lot noisy once it actually happens
[09:42] <ivoks> Currently, Ubuntu does little to enable Composition and 3D
[09:42] <ivoks> who wrote this?!
[09:42] <imbrandon> Chandu, you might talk with joejaxx sometime, he is doing the same thing from scratch , and is working on modified scripts he got from cjwatson at UDS
[09:43] <Burgundavia> ivoks: rodrigo novo
[09:43] <ivoks> this is untrue
[09:43] <Chandu> Burgundavia, ok
[09:43] <Chandu> imbrandon, ok
[09:44] <Burgundavia> ivoks: that acceleratedX spec was drafted by rodrigo. I understand that sabdfl is heavily pushing this
[09:44] <Chandu> joejaxx, I am working on a distro build .. I want to come out with a single cd distro with gnome , openoffice and few other applications by default
[09:44] <ivoks> Burgundavia: i hope this is just a nightmare :)
[09:45] <imbrandon> Chandu, as i said ask joejaxx for his scripts to do this, he has that all working with seeds etc, the proper way
[09:45] <Chandu> joejaxx, with debian G-I ... I want to know the steps that I need to follow to come out with a single cd as Ubuntu with all feaures
[09:45] <Burgundavia> ivoks: I truly hope so too. But you understand how sabdfl can be
[09:45] <Chandu> imbrandon, ok
[09:45] <Chandu> joejaxx, Can you give me the scripts that u r using to do all these things
[09:45] <ivoks> Burgundavia: this will result in more ubuntu users, but even less good programers
[09:46] <Chandu> joejaxx, Iam able to build a image ..but all the pacakges which Iam listing in tasks of debian-cd are not installing
[09:46] <imbrandon> Chandu, he is most likely asleep as its 2am in his timezone
[09:46] <Burgundavia> ivoks: yes. I agree. https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/accelerated-x <-- still in drafting, at least
[09:46] <Chandu> imbrandon, oh ..ok
[09:46] <Chandu> imbrandon, Then When can I get him
[09:46] <Burgundavia> all the X specs are, for that matter
[09:46] <Burgundavia> ivoks: just glad I have an i915 here
[09:47] <imbrandon> Chandu, probably email him, his email should be listed on fluxbuntu.org or launchpad
[09:47] <Chandu> imbrandon, ok
[09:47] <ivoks> Burgundavia: me too
[09:47] <ivoks> Burgundavia: i945 :)
[09:47] <Burgundavia> lucky bastard :)
[09:49] <ivoks> i don't belive it... :(
[09:49] <ivoks> rodrig is maintaining xorg and says that composite isn't enabled :/
[09:50] <ivoks> -o
[09:50] <ivoks> rodrigo :)
[09:50] <ajmitch> he's mainly referring to the very common cases of nvidia/ati
[09:50] <Burgundavia> ivoks: rodrig was hired to work on other stuff and got stuck with Xorg
[09:50] <Burgundavia> I know he is very much not an X expert
[09:51] <ivoks> heh, i planned starting company that will base it bussiness on ubuntu, but i have second tougths now :/
[09:52] <Burgundavia> ivoks: then contact Mark directly and mention that
[09:52] <imbrandon> the general consinsus is it wont happen yet, but i'm with Burgundavia talk to mark directly
[09:52] <imbrandon> ( consinsus at UDS )
[09:52] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: the entire world < Mark
[09:53] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: I think that it at least requires the community to vote on it, to change the philosophy statement
[09:53] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, oh i know, but it helps when we had litterly EVERYONE but the beryl devs against it including mdz and keybuk
[09:53] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: if you read the philosophy, we don't need to change it
[09:53] <ivoks> if we do that, we aren't ubuntu anymore
[09:54] <ivoks> jesus... if beryl would be something we can't live wihtout, then ok...
[09:54] <ivoks> but it's just useless eye candy
[09:54] <ajmitch> s/we/mark/
[09:55] <Burgundavia> it is a good thing the binary drivers are such shite
[09:55] <ivoks> yeah...
[09:55] <Burgundavia> it makes the whole "we are going to have major regressions" argument much easier
[09:55] <ivoks> i wonder which kernel dev would agree to maintiain them
[09:56] <Burgundavia> what about the all random bugs?
[09:56] <ivoks> that's icluded in 'maintainace' :)
[09:56] <Burgundavia> "Currently, we make a specific exception for some "drivers" which are only available in binary form, without which many computers will not complete the Ubuntu installation."
[09:56] <ivoks> grr... this keyboard :/
[09:56] <imbrandon> which kernel dev ? heh we only have 2 and one just signed the contract at UDS heh
[09:56] <Burgundavia> that is all our philosophy says on this matter
[09:56] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: who signed at UDS?
[09:56] <Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy
[09:57] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, i forgot his name to be honest, i'm terrible with names , i just know he was out smoking with me and BenC ( the only other kernel dev currently ) when he cancled his flight to stay at the all hands meeting becouse he finaly signed the contract
[09:57] <imbrandon> i'll have to look it up later
[09:58] <Burgundavia> ok, no worries
[09:58] <ajmitch> kylem
[09:58] <imbrandon> yea
[09:58] <ajmitch> aka kyle mcmartin (iirc)
[09:59] <Burgundavia> ah, another canuck
[09:59] <Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/people/kyle
[09:59] <imbrandon> yup
[09:59] <Burgundavia> I think there are now more Canadian Canonical employees than Amurikan
[10:00] <Burgundavia> kylem is a DD as well
[10:00] <imbrandon> lol thats not hard as most of us Amurikan's were labled rednecks
[10:00] <imbrandon> lol
[10:00] <imbrandon> leaste i was :)
[10:00] <ajmitch> no surprise there :)
[10:02] <imbrandon> heh , i think the "yall" gave it away, it dosent come accross on irc well
[10:14] <Burgundavia> what exactly needs non-free drivers right now? all nvidia and x1xxx from ATI
[10:14] <Burgundavia> ?
[10:14] <slomo> imbrandon: LP is not yet white-listed for feisty-changes it seems
[10:15] <imbrandon> slomo, yea i noticed :(
[10:16] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, depends on your definition of "needs" i have both nvidia and ati and none use binary drivers ( but none have 3d accel either )
[10:16] <imbrandon> i think its mostly network cards that "need" it
[10:17] <Burgundavia> imbrandon: by "needs", I mean "needs 3D drivers"
[10:17] <ajmitch> nvidia binary driver is also needed for basic stuff like dual-head
[10:17] <Burgundavia> r300 does free 3D for everything below the x1xxx series
[10:17] <imbrandon> well the freee ati can do direct rendering and composite ootb on all cards afaik but its better on the non-free drivers from what i've been told
[10:18] <imbrandon> i know atleaste the free ati works for direct 3d on mt radeon moble 7500
[10:18] <imbrandon> s/mt/my
[10:18] <imbrandon> in my ibook
[10:18] <Burgundavia> yes, up to the the 9800 and the x700
[10:19] <Burgundavia> http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/UserStatus
[10:20] <Burgundavia> anyway, I need to sleep
[10:20] <Burgundavia> just wanted to see if I was missing anything
[10:20] <imbrandon> gnight Burgundavia
[10:21] <ajmitch> nouveau project is a long way from having a useful 3d driver
[10:22] <imbrandon> nouveau == free "ati" ?
[10:22] <ajmitch> no
[10:22] <ajmitch> nvidia
[10:22] <imbrandon> ahh
[10:22] <imbrandon> i might try that tomarrow on my box that has an nvidia card
[10:23] <ajmitch> all you'll get is some slight improvements over the nv driver
[10:23] <imbrandon> as i dont use it really for anything but to ssh into and compile so if X breaks no biggie
[10:23] <ajmitch> there is no working 3d
[10:23] <imbrandon> ahh
[10:23] <ajmitch> the ddx part is the nv driver, with some fixes
[10:23] <slomo> imbrandon: your stuff will be built nonetheless
[10:23] <imbrandon> my main thing is the chipset in it and nic, i could really care less about 3d rendering tbh
[10:24] <imbrandon> slomo,  yea i seen it hit the buildd's just was curious about the list
[10:25] <imbrandon> and i almost have amarok ready too, but i think i'll finish it up in the morning
[10:25] <imbrandon> as its almost bed time for imbrandon
[10:31] <StevenK> Huzzah!
[10:34] <imbrandon> :)
[10:35] <ajmitch> night all
[10:35] <imbrandon> gnight ajmitch
[10:36] <Admiral_Chicago> imbrandon: what are you fixing in amarok?
[10:36] <StevenK> imbrandon: I move we kick wlassistant out of kubuntu-desktop.
[10:36] <StevenK> imbrandon: It is *PURE* crap.
[10:36] <imbrandon> StevenK, hahaha agreed
[10:36] <imbrandon> Admiral_Chicago, at the moment merging it with debian
[10:37] <imbrandon> Admiral_Chicago, and a few other minor things
[10:37] <Admiral_Chicago> sending things upstream?
[10:37] <Admiral_Chicago> i reported a bug for amarok today, hopefully someone can duplicate it
[10:37] <imbrandon> Admiral_Chicago, always, i work with upstream very closely, i'm even in the uber secret amarok dev channel and ML :)
[10:38] <imbrandon> its one of the main reasons i'm a core-dev :)
[10:38] <Admiral_Chicago> ML?
[10:38] <imbrandon> dev / packagers mailing list
[10:39] <Admiral_Chicago> ah mailing list, spam filter anyone?
[10:39] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm one of the three ML admins for the Chicago LoCo as of toady
[10:39] <imbrandon> yes and by invite only iirc
[10:39] <imbrandon> no this is for amarok as a whole, not ubuntu-amarok
[10:39] <imbrandon> e.g the gentoo maintainers, fedora guys etc etc etc
[10:39] <Admiral_Chicago> i got you
[10:41] <Admiral_Chicago> imbrandon: maybe you can duplicate this bug https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/amarok/+bug/71584
[10:41] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 71584 in amarok "on screen display lags text typing" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]
[10:41] <imbrandon> :) anyhow , short answer yes i send all fixes that apply to upstream back to upstream both upstream:upstream and debian for everything i work on, including amarok
[10:42] <imbrandon> Admiral_Chicago, i'm on a console only box + irssi atm but when i get back on my desktop i'll check it out, i stuck it in my ~/Desktop/TODO file
[10:42] <imbrandon> i'm stuck*
[10:43] <StevenK> Heh
[10:43] <StevenK> Why, did KDE break again? :-P
[10:43] <imbrandon> hahah no, upgrading my laptop to feisty
[10:43] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm doing a talk on Ubuntu / FOSS friday, it's mostly going to be on the community and Ubuntu
[10:43] <imbrandon> i dont like to have X running when dist-upgrading
[10:44] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm sticking upstream / governance in there
[10:44] <imbrandon> Admiral_Chicago, make sure to pimp kubuntu a bit too :)
[10:44] <StevenK> And it's still a 73 line patch.
[10:45] <StevenK> Then I get beat upstream about the head, and file a SRU bug.
[10:45] <imbrandon> :)
[10:45] <Admiral_Chicago> imbrandon: i'm a kde fan boy. gnome is nice but the GUI is hard to use imho
[10:45] <StevenK> imbrandon: So, Mr. KDE Using Person, how do I file a bug with a large bat attached?
[10:46] <imbrandon> Admiral_Chicago, cool, i was just making sure you mentioned both :)
[10:46] <imbrandon> StevenK, hahaha a KDE bug?
[10:46] <imbrandon> or kubuntu ?
[10:46] <StevenK> imbrandon: Well, a bug on wlassistant.
[10:47] <Admiral_Chicago> imbrandon: i'm doing ichthux, edubuntu, xubuntu, ubuntu, kubuntu
[10:47] <imbrandon> mailbomb the maintainer? heh
[10:47] <Admiral_Chicago> doing the whole spectrum
[10:47] <StevenK> Don't tempt me.
[10:47] <Admiral_Chicago> this is the orginal
[10:47] <Admiral_Chicago> ah sorry wrong channel
[10:48] <imbrandon> hrm
[10:48] <imbrandon> i wonder if i can make konsole start "screen bash" not just "bash" when it open &/or opens a new tab
[10:49] <StevenK> Multiple tabs in Konsole each running screen? *twitch*
[10:50] <imbrandon> well mostly so i can kill X and never have to worry about what i have running in console, or if i leave on a whim unexpecdly i can ssh in and connect back to them
[10:50] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: ping
[10:51] <imbrandon> i hate starting a compile just to rember i forgot to start screen and have to leave or restart X
[10:51] <StevenK> Burgundavia: Apparently, he's sleeping.
[10:51] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:51] <Burgundavia> I need a DD
[10:51] <StevenK> imbrandon: Why not one screen session?
[10:51] <imbrandon> Burgundavia, i think he just headed to bed
[10:51] <imbrandon> StevenK, well how would that work with multi tabs in konsole ?
[10:52] <StevenK> imbrandon: You know screen supports more than one shell, right?
[10:52] <imbrandon> StevenK, no , actualy i dident , i'm a very basic user of screen
[10:52] <Burgundavia> StevenK: pm'ed you
[10:52] <imbrandon> i just know about "screen bash" ctl+a+d  and "screen -DR"
[10:52] <imbrandon> other than that nothing
[10:52] <imbrandon> StevenK, ^
[10:53] <StevenK> imbrandon: Try Ctrl-A c
[10:53] <Admiral_Chicago> amarok crashes, kmail pops up to send a report to the amarok people, then that crashes
[10:53] <Admiral_Chicago> nice
[10:53] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: Ctrl+A c, and Ctrl+A a.
[10:53] <StevenK> And Ctrl-A p and Ctrl-A n
[10:53] <imbrandon> Admiral_Chicago, hahah
[10:53] <Fujitsu> And those two.
[10:54] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, StevenK, great but does me no good unless i know what they do :)
[10:54] <StevenK> imbrandon: Try Ctrl-A c
[10:54] <imbrandon> ok
[10:54] <imbrandon> done
[10:54] <imbrandon> seems to do nothing
[10:54] <Fujitsu> c creates a new terminal within the screen session, a goes to the previous one or something like that. p to the previous, n to the next./
[10:54] <imbrandon> p prev / n next ?
[10:55] <StevenK> Correct
[10:55] <imbrandon> what's a ?
[10:55] <Fujitsu> a switches to the one you were at last.
[10:55] <StevenK> Ctrl-a a is a literal Ctrl-A
[10:55] <imbrandon> oh man, you guys fskin rock
[10:55] <geser> Ctrl-a ? show the key list
[10:56] <StevenK> Ctrl-A Ctrl-A on the other hand, switches to the last window you were in.
[10:56] <Fujitsu> Oh, yes.
[10:56] <Fujitsu> I never think about it, I just do it out of habit :P
[10:57] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: That's like, the entire point of screen.
[10:57] <geser> with Ctrl-A [0-9]  you can directly jump to the nth screen
[10:57] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, not really, the whole reason i started using screen was to start a process on a box i ssh into and close the connection with the program running still
[10:57] <imbrandon> nothing more
[10:57] <imbrandon> :)
[10:57] <imbrandon> past that i just pick little bits up here and there
[10:58] <imbrandon> but now i can use just one screen session
[10:58] <imbrandon> very very cool, because i normaly had 2 or 3 going untill now
[10:58] <StevenK> imbrandon: I suggest you read the manual page.
[10:59] <StevenK> Specifically, the "DEFAULT KEY BINDINGS" section.
[10:59] <imbrandon> yea i probably should but i figure i have been using it for 3 or 4 years without it i'm reluctant , hehehe
[10:59] <imbrandon> detach and reattach has served me well untill now
[10:59] <imbrandon> :)
[11:01] <imbrandon> brandon  pts/4    :pts/3:S.0       03:53   24.00s  0.18s  0.18s /bin/bash
[11:01] <imbrandon> brandon  pts/5    :pts/3:S.1       03:59    5.00s  0.16s  0.16s /bin/bash
[11:01] <imbrandon> brandon  pts/6    :pts/3:S.2       04:00    0.00s  0.17s  0.01s w
[11:01] <imbrandon> hahaha rock on
[11:01] <imbrandon> thanks guys
[11:02] <Admiral_Chicago> imbrandon: i update the bug report with screenshots
[11:03] <imbrandon> kk
[11:04] <geser> imbrandon: you can also add some info to the status line of screen like displaying the hostname (useful if you ssh to several different boxes)
[11:05] <imbrandon> yes definately, i spend almost all my computer time ssh'd into 5 or 6 diffrent boxes ( but i normaly just pay attn to the user@host prompt )
[11:06] <geser> add something like 'hardstatus alwayslastline "%{.bW}%-w%{.rW}%n %t%{-}%+w %=%{..G} %H %{..Y} %Y-%m-%d %c "' to your .screenrc
[11:07] <imbrandon> wow
[11:11] <StevenK> imbrandon: Note: screen can do a whole lot of stuff. :-)
[11:11] <Jozo-> Splitting screen is also useful (C-a S).
[11:11] <imbrandon> heh i'm noticing
[11:12] <StevenK> What about screen -x?
[11:12] <StevenK>        -x   Attach to a not detached screen session. (Multi display mode).
[11:12] <Jozo-> and scrollback, and cut/paste ... and telnet client ... and ...
[11:13] <imbrandon> hrm if i split the screen how can i get to the other
[11:13] <imbrandon> eg from top to bottom and back
[11:13] <Jozo-> C-a tab
[11:14] <Jozo-> and C-a Q removes split
[11:14] <imbrandon> ok what about closiing a split
[11:14] <imbrandon> lol
[11:14] <imbrandon> ok
[11:14] <Jozo-> C-a esc is scrollback
[11:15] <imbrandon> oh rock on
[11:15] <imbrandon> i dont even need a WM now
[11:15] <imbrandon> LOL
[11:16] <imbrandon> well if i could find a good cli mail app i could
[11:17] <crimsun> (mutt)
[11:17] <imbrandon> i bet if i figured out how to use mutt with imap and folders i would be happy
[11:17] <Jozo-> alpine (pine with new licence and unicode support) is coming soon.
[11:18] <imbrandon> heh i used pine way back in the day just for pico ( now i use nano ( and vim at select times )
[11:18] <imbrandon> )
[11:18] <imbrandon> but thats when i only got 5 mails a daya on a busy day
[11:18] <imbrandon> now i get 800+ normaly
[11:19] <imbrandon> so .procmail and imap are my friends
[11:19] <imbrandon> .procmailrc*
[11:19] <Jozo-> imho, pine is very good imap client.
[12:33] <Lutin> giskard: ping
[12:35] <Lure> StevenK: why do you bother with wlassistant - it will be droped from default instll in feisty
[12:36] <StevenK> Lure: Then you tell all of the Kubuntu Edgy people that wlassistant won't work.
[12:36] <StevenK> Lure: Go on, I *dare* you.
[12:36] <Lure> StevenK: knetworkmanager does not work for them?
[12:36] <Hobbsee> Lure: not for static IP's, etc
[12:36] <StevenK> knetworkmanager and NetworkManager don't work for a lot of people.
[12:37] <Hobbsee> Lure: and not for a whole lot of crads
[12:37] <Hobbsee> *cards
[12:37] <Hobbsee> Lure: that was why wlassistant was put in - it probably still needs to be there
[12:37] <StevenK> Lure: So, by all means, tell them.
[12:38] <Lure> StevenK: ok, so what is the problem that it does not work (it is pretty limited app anyway)?
[12:38] <Hobbsee> Lure: yes it doesnt work for anyone.
[12:38] <StevenK> Hah
[12:39] <StevenK> It certainly won't work for DHCP using networks.
[12:39] <Hobbsee> Lure: i think, when we decided to put it in, that no one actually tested it first - or not much?  it wont connect to my network, even open (ie, not wpa)
[12:39] <StevenK> It will work for static networks, if your default gateway doesn't reverse resolve.
[12:40] <broonie> What are the chances of getting a fix for https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/nis/+bug/47815 into dapper?
[12:40] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47815 in nis "/usr/lib/yp/ypxfr produces segmentation fault" [Medium,Confirmed]
[12:40] <Lure> Hobbsee: Tonio_ did and he was fine with it - it also worked for me in Dapper - it may be that edgy broke something
[12:40] <StevenK> I note wlassistant thinks all encrypted networks are WEP. This is stupid, but I'm not fixing that.
[12:41] <Hobbsee> Lure: iv'e never even been able to get it to work under dapper, either, i dont think.  but clearly the edgy version is unusable
[12:42] <StevenK> The 6 bugs in Launchpad agrees with Hobbsee.
[12:51] <TheMuso> Meh. Just use /etc/network/interfaces and bring up/down interfaces as you need them.
[12:52] <TheMuso> Thats all I do. WHy bother with some magic network utility that probably won't get it right anyway.
[12:52] <pygi> Lure, n-m is not mature enough, neither is linux wireless stack mature enough
[12:52] <StevenK> TheMuso: You tell you bug submitters that.
[12:52] <Lure> pygi: but n-m is planned to be default in feisty - se network-roaming spec
[12:52] <pygi> Lure, that will break a lot of stuff!
[12:53] <pygi> Lure, url pls?
[12:53] <Hobbsee> Lure: it's planned, but that doesnt mean that we have to remove all the old ways
[12:53] <pygi> Lure, and anyway, giskard will bring n-m 0.7 to feisty
[12:53] <Lure> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkRoaming
[12:53] <pygi> but that doesn't mean that n/m will be more mature, and especially doesnt mean wireless stack will become mature overnight
[12:54] <pygi> Hobbsee, we actually have to improve old ways
[12:54] <pygi> we'll get tons of bug reports
[12:54] <Lure> pygi: agree
[12:54] <Hobbsee> pygi: indeed.  like making wlassistant work?  :P
[12:54] <pygi> Hobbsee, that as well :P
[12:54] <Hobbsee> pygi: which is where this discussion started :P
[12:55] <pygi> Hobbsee, ok, ok, don't eat me :P
[12:55] <pygi> so what doesn't work?
[12:55] <pygi> ergh!
[12:55] <Hobbsee> pygi: it doesnt work for any network that uses dhcp, it sounds like.  StevenK is fixing it
[12:55] <Hobbsee> s/is fixing/has fixed/
[12:55] <pygi> nice
[12:55] <Hobbsee> seeing as the majority *do*, that's kinda bad
[12:56] <pygi> Hobbsee, n-m will need some heavy patching again to work for 1% of population
[12:56] <pygi> and so all wireless related packages will need
[12:56] <Hobbsee> pygi: that being said, i use n-m all the time, on 2 machines, without a problem
[12:57] <Hobbsee> they all need work, but i doubt we'll be removing the stuff that does work
[12:57] <pygi> Hobbsee, I understand, yes, but that's you
[12:57] <pygi> Hobbsee, they work for me as well, but after manually patching and fixing icon cache problem
[12:57] <pygi> Hobbsee, regular users won't bother with stuff
[12:57] <Hobbsee> i mean, a few that work for a wider group of people each - that's better than one works for a group of people, and too bad for the others
[12:57] <Hobbsee> pygi: what iconcache problem?
[12:58] <Hobbsee> pygi: did you file a bug in n-m for that?  the solution to that is to call dh_iconcache in debian/rules
[12:58] <pygi> Hobbsee, the problem is that "n-m cannot locate resource bla bla" and then it won't start
[12:58] <Hobbsee> ah
[12:58] <pygi> ergh
[12:58] <Hobbsee> hah
[12:58] <pygi> Hobbsee, bug is filed
[12:58] <Hobbsee> cool
[12:58] <pygi> problem is that package doesnt work everytime
[12:58] <pygi> (postinst that is)
[12:59] <pygi> and that happens to a lot of people
[12:59] <Hobbsee> indeed
[12:59] <Hobbsee> it certainly needs work
[01:00] <pygi> Hobbsee, I'm gonna call for some testing of 0.6.4 in Feisty, so we get some feedback
[01:00] <pygi> this can be a serious mess if we don't put some extra work into it
[01:01] <pygi> Hobbsee, and I think I'm still subscribed to all n-m bugs
[01:01] <pygi> Hobbsee, what other packages you want me to follow?
[01:01] <StevenK> Hah, I tested 0.6.4 in *Edgy* and didn't get past Keybuk.
[01:02] <Hobbsee> pygi: sounds good.  are you meaning in kubuntu-land?
[01:02] <pygi> Hobbsee, all...kubuntu and ubuntu
[01:02] <Hobbsee> pygi: kdebase.  and kdelibs. you knew i was going to say that, didnt you :P
[01:02] <Hobbsee> but mostly kdebase
[01:02] <pygi> ofcourse I did, lol :P
[01:03] <pygi> Hobbsee, isn't your first time you are saying this :P
[01:03] <Hobbsee> pygi: hmmm?  no, probably not
[01:04] <pygi> Hobbsee, as soon as I'm back from uni (I'm late anyway :P) we can assemble a call for testing all wireless thingies in existance in feisty ^_^
[01:04] <Hobbsee> pygi: sure, but probably better to do that at a meeting.  and no sane person is running feisty anyway
[01:04] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: im sane
[01:04] <pygi> Hobbsee, who says that? :P
[01:05] <gnomefreak> sortof
[01:05] <Hobbsee> pygi: i do.
[01:05] <pygi> Hobbsee, and what's wrong with being insane? :P
[01:05] <Hobbsee> pygi: and most other people
[01:05] <StevenK> [20:43]  < imbrandon> hahah no, upgrading my laptop to feisty
[01:05] <StevenK> Oh look, Hobbsee is right.
[01:05] <Hobbsee> pygi: nothing at all - i hear people enjoy every minute of it
[01:05] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: yes, well
[01:05] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Noo, stay good!
[01:06] <Hobbsee> why should i?
[01:06] <gnomefreak> other than a few bugs its ok for now im sure that will change soon
[01:08] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: clearly they havent started merging X?
[01:08] <gnomefreak> nope
[01:08] <StevenK> Hrm. I wonder if Xorg 7.2 is out yet
[01:09] <gnomefreak> nvidia was a little weird though. installing 2.6.19 i had to remove and install nvidia-glx to get it to work other than that i havent seen anything big yet. dbus has an issue (had) not sure if its still an issue
[01:12] <animimotus> hi
[01:12] <Hobbsee> heay
[01:12] <Hobbsee> *heya
[01:13] <animimotus> why can I find keypassx in Universe ?
[01:13] <animimotus> like said here http://keepassx.sourceforge.net/downloads/
[01:13] <animimotus> oops, keepassx ? oO
[01:13] <animimotus> lol, I test
[01:14] <animimotus> arf it's ok ^^
[01:53] <animimotus> please, someone can make a good deb pour having the french traduction for Quanta+ ?
[01:54] <animimotus> or a dependance
[01:54] <animimotus> http://serge.bregliano.free.fr/blog/index.php/2006/11/03/76-quanta-plus-de-nouveau-en-francais
[01:55] <zakame> hmm is feisty following deian's lead on the python-deps transition now? (python-policy thing)
[01:55] <zakame> *debian
[01:56] <animimotus> Gloubiboulga, someone ? ;)
[01:56] <gnomefreak> zakame: that was done in edgy i thought
[01:56] <gnomefreak> unless theres another change in the policy
[01:56] <zakame> gnomefreak: just asking since I'm doing some merges
[02:00] <Hobbsee> zakame: edgy did
[02:01] <zakame> Hobbsee: oh k, trying a gr-wxgui build now, although I suspect it just needs a sync
[02:51] <zul> hey
[02:52] <Hobbsee> hey zul
[02:52] <zul> hey Hobbsee how is it gong?
[02:52] <Hobbsee> zul: good, and yourself?
[02:52] <zul> good a bit tired
[02:53] <zul> first day back at work you know how it is...
[02:55] <Hobbsee> ah yes
[03:33] <chillywi1ly> anyone know anything about the problem where gnome-keyring-manager sucks all available RAM + swap and then the OS is forced to kill it?
[03:33] <chillywi1ly> it's really annoying
[03:33] <chillywi1ly> :)
[04:05] <joejaxx> did someone ping me?
[04:24] <Kyral> Hey guys I know I don't package anymore, but whats the packaging policy for RubyGems?
[04:54] <bersace> Hi all
[04:54] <bersace> how to request an update of a package for a new upstream release ?
[04:55] <zul> launchpad
[04:55] <bersace> zul: with a bug ?
[04:55] <zul> yep
[04:58] <bersace> is it possible to autoupdate a package for each release
[04:58] <bersace> launchpad seems to be able to watch new upstream release of a product
[04:59] <bersace> ?
[05:06] <zakame> what again is the right process for requesting a sync?
[05:39] <bddebian> Heya gang
[06:07] <zakame> yo bddebian
[06:07] <zakame> what again is the right process for requesting a sync?
[06:08] <bddebian> Heya zakame
[06:32] <ajmitch> morning
[06:33] <fernando> ajmitch: moin
[06:35] <dooglus> !info ntp | Murrlin
[06:35] <ubotu> ntp: Network Time Protocol: network utilities. In component main, is optional. Version 1:4.2.0a+stable-9ubuntu2 (edgy), package size 256 kB, installed size 464 kB
[06:54] <Sp4rKy> hi motus
[06:54] <Sp4rKy> please, i've an "out of the box" question
[06:55] <Sp4rKy> if i've 2 repo in my sources.list with the same packages (& same version)
[06:55] <Sp4rKy> how apt select the mirror for download ?
[06:58] <LaserJock> it looks at the versions of the packages and picks the higher version
[06:58] <LaserJock> unless you specifically tell it otherwise
[06:58] <bhale> he said same version
[06:59] <bhale> it is a pretty obscure question you would probably get the best answer by trying it
[06:59] <Sp4rKy> i've try
[06:59] <LaserJock> oh, sorry
[06:59] <Sp4rKy> i'd switch the order of 2 mirrors in the sources.list, apt-get remove onepackage && apt-get clean && apt-get update && apt-get install thepackage
[07:00] <Sp4rKy> and apt got the package from the same server twice
[07:00] <LaserJock> so is this really true that Sun GPL'd Java?
[07:01] <Sp4rKy> i think
[07:03] <apokryphos> yes, see slashdot
[07:03] <bhale> slashdot has been reporting it for weeks
[07:03] <bhale> is not automatically credible
[07:04] <bhale> but the Associated Press doesn't make up quotes from company execs most of the tiem
[07:05] <LaserJock> I just read the Sun announcement
[07:05] <LaserJock> not that it makes much sense to me
[07:05] <Tonio_> hello dudes
[07:06] <ajmitch> hi Tonio_
[07:06] <zul> LaserJock: what you dont want to help the next chapter in history? ;)
[07:07] <LaserJock> zul: hmm?
[07:07] <zul> i was looking at the marketing crud
[07:07] <Burgwork> it is all over sun.com, so I would say so
[07:07] <Burgwork> apparently RMS was introduced with the words "open source"
[07:08] <bhale> oh jeez
[07:08] <ajmitch> did he walk off?
[07:08] <bhale> i wish he'd get over himtself
[07:08] <bhale> for code he wrote in the 80s
[07:08] <LaserJock> zul: haha
[07:09] <zul> http://www.stallman.org/harry-potter.html *sigh*
[07:14] <LaserJock> http://www.stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
[07:14] <LaserJock> that one is interesting
[07:25] <zul> oh even better
[07:25] <zul> http://www.stallman.org/extra/personal.html
[07:28] <ajmitch> zul: such an interesting person
[07:29] <zul> exactly...hey ajmitch how was the flight?
[07:29] <ajmitch> long, boring, uneventful
[07:29] <LaserJock> I'm sort of surprised he talked to the Sun people about Java
[07:29] <zul> heh better than mine
[07:29] <ajmitch> as expected
[07:29] <ajmitch> why, how was yours?
[07:30] <zul> well lets see the flight from chicago to ottawa sucked, the flight was 2 hours late, it was overbooked, the toilet didnt work, and they changed the gate 3 times
[07:30] <ajmitch> ah
[07:30] <zul> i didnt get out of the airport in ottawa until 1 in the morning
[07:31] <ajmitch> worst I had was a 45 minute delay from auckland->christchurch
[07:31] <ajmitch> which just meant that I was waiting around for 45 min in auckland airport instead of in christchurch
[07:31] <ajmitch> gave me a chance to get some breakfast
[07:32] <zul> cool
[07:47] <LaserJock> hmmm
[07:47] <ajmitch> hmm?
[07:48] <LaserJock> Barry's nick change
[07:49] <ajmitch> slightly strange
[07:50] <bhale> he's a nut, what can you do
[07:51] <dingaling> Hey
[07:53] <LaserJock> hmpf
[07:53] <LaserJock> gotta love bug reports that end with "I can't test anymore because I compiled it myself and don't use the packaged version anymore"
[07:54] <bhale> or "i removed beagle"
[07:54] <bhale> but that is just on irc, you dont get a bug
[07:56] <LaserJock> oh man, that's worse then bddebian's nick change
[07:57] <bhale> i dont even know who that is
[07:57] <LaserJock> awesome, this is the best bug report ever. The entire description is: "n.a"
[08:02] <Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: my nick was awesome
[08:07] <LaserJock> hmmm, irc.gnome.org's got to use a port other then 6667
[08:10] <crimsun> ask imbrandon for a shell, run irssi in passwd-protected proxy mode, and use an ssh tunnel
[08:13] <LaserJock> crimsun: ohhhh
[08:16] <LaserJock> crimsun: I don't quite understand how it works but I'll look into it later
[08:17] <LaserJock> irssi runs on both the machine acting as a proxy and the local machine?
[08:21] <rgl> hello
[08:21] <rgl> I want to have a newer version of web/trac, what is the correct way to push the changes to the ubuntu repository?
[08:22] <LaserJock> rgl: newer in what release of Ubuntu?
[08:22] <rgl> LaserJock, any?
[08:23] <rgl> LaserJock, the upgrade is only viable to feisty?
[08:23] <LaserJock> rgl: if the version you want is in Debian then it'll get synced
[08:23] <LaserJock> once it's in Feisty you can perhaps request a backport to Edgy
[08:24] <rgl> LaserJock, it is.  but the question is "when" :D
[08:24] <LaserJock> it is in Debian?
[08:24] <rgl> LaserJock, yes.  its at http://packages.debian.org/testing/web/trac
[08:24] <LaserJock> then it should be in Feisty when the sync is done
[08:25] <ajmitch> feisty has that version already
[08:25] <rgl> ajmitch, why it doesn't show up at http://packages.ubuntulinux.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?searchon=names&version=all&exact=1&keywords=trac ?
[08:25] <ajmitch> because that site isn't always up to date
[08:26] <rgl> ah ok
[08:27] <rgl> how can I backport it to edgy?  I mean, how can I setup apt to download the sources from the feisty repo?
[08:27] <zul> i dont think you want to do that quite just yet
[08:28] <rgl> I want 0.10 now :D
[08:28] <rgl> why shouldn't I zul ?
[08:29] <zul> because fiesty just opened but what do i know
[08:29] <zul> and it might break at some point
[08:29] <rgl> I just need some help to setup apt to download the source package from fiesty :D
[08:31] <LaserJock> rgl: just get it manually
[08:31] <minghua> rgl: then go ask in #ubuntu, not here, it's simple, just modify /etc/apt/sources.list and do apt-get source
[08:31] <LaserJock> it's not worth tweaking apt for one package
[08:31] <rgl> ah ok thx
[08:32] <minghua> LaserJock: IMO it's relatively safe if you know what you do, since you only need the deb-src line
[08:32] <LaserJock> yeah, but for 1 package?
[08:33] <zul> it would be easier to go to the archive and download it from there
[08:33] <minghua> zul: yes, agreed
[08:34] <zul> of course you would still have to know what you are doing
[08:34] <minghua> LaserJock: I just don't really think it counts as "tweaking" :-)  never said it will be worth it. :-P
[08:34] <LaserJock> ah, well
[08:37] <LaserJock> so apparently the sun people are having a little Java chat in #open-source-java on oftc if anybody is interested
[08:39] <minghua> cool, thanks LaserJock
[08:40] <minghua> d'oh.  typed /quit instead of /part
[08:41] <zul> meh..
[08:48] <ajmitch> in the last few years, sun has managed to open up a reasonable amount of code
[08:48] <ajmitch> with OOo & now java
[08:48] <bhale> more than most
[08:48] <ajmitch> even their niagara cpu designs
[08:48] <ajmitch> which admittedly are less useful than straight software
[08:50] <plugwash> cpus are one area where off the shelf makes far more sense than roll your own
[08:54] <bhale> rgl: does that support bzr yet
[08:55] <rgl> bhale, I've just used subversion and mercurial (you have to install a repo plugin)
[08:56] <bhale> well before you needed a patch and a plugin
[08:56] <bhale> just a plugin would be fine
[09:08] <bhale> ajmitch: how uninformative
[09:09] <ajmitch> hm?
[09:09] <bhale> java
[09:09] <bhale> channel
[09:09] <ajmitch> right
[09:10] <Q-FUNK> java is a good blend of coffee.  otherwise... argh!
[09:11] <nixternal> +1 Q-FUNK! ;)
[09:11] <nixternal> colombian java, not sun java
[09:12] <Q-FUNK> :)
[09:12] <LaserJock> well, there are quite a few nice Java apps out there, it'd be nice to be able to put them in Universe at some point
[09:13] <bhale> LaserJock++, i guess
[09:13] <LaserJock> there are some really nice chemistry apps, at least 4 or 5. All GPL'd I think. But they only work with Sun's Java I think
[09:14] <LaserJock> hmm, too many "I think"s in there
[09:16] <minghua> I can count Jmol and JabRef as things I would like to see in Debian main / Ubuntu universe
[09:19] <Q-FUNK> sun is finally coming to terms with the GPL
[09:19] <Q-FUNK> about 10 years too late
[09:19] <Q-FUNK> too bad
[09:32] <tenshu> hi all
[09:33] <tenshu> i have a problem with the upload to revu it tell me by mail that "Signer has no upload rights at all to this distribution."
[09:33] <tenshu> why that?
[09:33] <tenshu> (i have an launchpad acount, i'm in the contributors team)
[09:34] <geser> got your key synced to revu?
[09:35] <tenshu> dunno it syncing every day/week?
[09:35] <geser> afaik only on request
[09:35] <geser> ask the revu admins to get it synced
[09:35] <tenshu> well so should i requesto to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>?
[09:36] <minghua> tenshu: when did you put you key to the list?
[09:36] <minghua> s/you key/your key/
[09:36] <ajmitch> tenshu: also make sure that you're uploading to revu, not ubuntu
[09:36] <tenshu> okai
[09:36] <tenshu> i'll check this
[09:39] <tenshu> ok my mistake, the host was set on ubuntu
[09:52] <Adri2000> can someone explain me what are debian/dirs and debian/<package>.dirs files and what should they be used for?
[09:53] <ajmitch> Adri2000: dh_installdirs
[09:54] <ajmitch> it sets up directories you may need
[09:54] <Adri2000> it's the same as a mkdir in debian/rules?
[09:54] <LaserJock> basically
[09:55] <LaserJock> just easier to use, IMO
[09:55] <LaserJock> debian/dirs is used when the source package on produces 1 binary
[09:55] <LaserJock> debian/<package>.dirs is used when the source package produces more then 1 binary so you can specify which package get the dir
[09:56] <TheMuso> Wow. Java GPLd.
[09:56] <Adri2000> LaserJock: ok
[09:56] <tenshu> thanks to all of you and motu-fr team, my first 2 packages are now in REVU =)
[10:06] <minghua> the main advantage of dh_installdirs over mkdir, IMO, is that your debian/rules is much cleaner why you need to create directories for multiple binary packages
[10:06] <minghua> s/IMO/it seems to me/
[10:12] <jdong> any good guides on packaging apps that are written in python (and include a python package/library)?
[10:13] <mr_pouit> jdong: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy ?
[10:15] <jdong> mr_pouit: ok, will take a look
[10:17] <jdong> does the python module have to be split into a separate debian package?
[10:19] <Adri2000> !info briquolo
[10:19] <ubotu> briquolo: 3D BreakOut clone. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.5.5-0ubuntu1 (edgy), package size 1540 kB, installed size 4260 kB
[10:20] <siretart> jdong: it depends on the case. it doesn't make sense for every package
[10:20] <Adri2000> briquolo is now in debian, the ubuntu package will be automatically replaced by the debian one?
[10:20] <bhale> no
[10:20] <jdong> siretart: I'm trying to package tovid as a learning experience...
[10:20] <bhale> if there is an ubuntuX version there is not automatic overwrite
[10:21] <Adri2000> it's a 0ubuntuX
[10:21] <jdong> siretart: it has a libtovid, which it uses in its python scripts... AFAIK no other app uses its library
[10:21] <siretart> Adri2000: if you want it to be overwritten, you need to request a sync manually. further updates in debian will be autosynced then, though
[10:22] <siretart> jdong: splitting packages makes sense when you want to save archive space, because large parts are architecture independent, or you want to save lots of dependencies from the user. Or space for stuff he probably doesn't want
[10:23] <jdong> siretart: ok, well in this case I guess it doesn't make sense to split the package at all
[10:23] <jdong> it's all architecture independent, and one part is useless without the other
[10:23] <Adri2000> siretart: ok, I will request a sync, the debian package is better, first the 5M data files are separated, and I think it will fix one bug reported in launchpad
[10:24] <siretart> jdong: yeah, sounds sane
[10:35] <minghua> Adri2000: there may be upgrade path you need to consider
[10:35] <LaserJock> minghua: hehe, who cares about upgrade paths?
[10:35] <LaserJock> ;-)
[10:36] <minghua> but honestly I am not so sure what the stand is about universe package upgradeability these days
[10:36] <ajmitch> it must be upgradeable or else
[10:36] <siretart> a bug is a bug is a bug
[10:36] <minghua> LaserJock: I, as a (relatively) long time Debian user, cares about it a lot
[10:36] <ajmitch> since a single universe breakage can cause update-manager to fail
[10:36] <siretart> which is imo a bug as well
[10:36] <LaserJock> ajmitch: isn't that a bit of a bug itself?
[10:37] <Adri2000> mhhh maybe I can request the sync and then if I see that the upgrade fails upload an ubuntuX to fix?
[10:43] <minghua> Does a sync request still need to be acked by an MOTU?
[10:43] <LaserJock> I believe so
[10:44] <minghua> then Adri2000, are you an MOTU?
[10:44] <Adri2000> minghua: no, not yet ^^
[10:44] <minghua> I myself won't request a sync unless I tested the upgrade path
[10:44] <Adri2000> I have just built the debs
[10:45] <Adri2000> I will try to install them
[10:45] <minghua> but you may find some other MOTU who agrees with you "sync first, test upgrade path" approach :-)
[10:47] <Adri2000> but is it possible to take a debian package, patch it for ubuntu and upload it (if the debian package is not yet in ubuntu)? I thought it was better to sync first
[10:48] <minghua> Adri2000: are you talking about briquolo or not?  you just said it's already in ubuntu, but with different packaging
[10:49] <Adri2000> yep, but the debian package is different of the ubuntu one, at least because it has a -data package
[10:49] <minghua> and for the general question -- if the debian package doesn't build / doesn't install on ubuntu, then there is no point to sync it first, just patch and upload
[10:49] <Adri2000> err, you said it was different, /me should read the end also
[10:49] <minghua> Adri2000: that's the upgrade path I am talking about
[10:50] <Adri2000> ok ok
[10:50] <minghua> and why many people here encourage people who what to add software in ubuntu to try getting it in Debian first
[10:51] <minghua> Adri2000: in any case I think contacting the ubuntu briquolo uploader/maintainer first is a good idea
[10:52] <Adri2000> no problem during the installation of the debs (having the ubuntu package installed)
[10:52] <Adri2000> yep, ping Tonio_
[10:57] <imbrandon> oogle.com/ig?hl=enoogle.com/ig?hl=en
[10:59] <Q-FUNK> http://seenonslash.com/node/761
[11:02] <Adri2000> minghua: seems that a fix is needed for briquolo, the .desktop file doesn't work
[11:03] <Adri2000> it is installed in /usr/share/games/applications/ o_O
[11:03] <Tonio_> Adri2000: pong
[11:03] <Adri2000> hi Tonio_
[11:03] <Tonio_> yop ;)
[11:03] <Adri2000> it's about briquolo
[11:03] <Adri2000> debian has a package
[11:03] <Tonio_> yes
[11:04] <Tonio_> we also have a package
[11:04] <Tonio_> what is the problem ?
[11:05] <Adri2000> because it's better to use the same package as in debian?
[11:05] <Adri2000> for this kind of package
[11:05] <Tonio_> Adri2000: yes it is but when I packaged it there was no debian package
[11:05] <Tonio_> now debian maintains it, it'll be sync with debian
[11:05] <Tonio_> no problem at this point
[11:06] <Adri2000> ok, you agree with that
[11:06] <Tonio_> sure
[11:06] <Tonio_> the point is I didn't get the package to ubuntu right
[11:06] <Tonio_> into debian sorry
[11:06] <Adri2000> and someone else did
[11:06] <Tonio_> yep and that duplicates, which is not good
[11:07] <Tonio_> but well where is the fault ?
[11:07] <Tonio_> should I package for debian instead of ubuntu or should debian packagers get a look at ubuntu before packaging from scratch ?
[11:07] <Tonio_> I think the second option is better
[11:08] <fdoving> as ubuntu use debian as a base, and not the other way around, the first is better for both. :)
[11:08] <Tonio_> fdoving: technically yes, but not "politically"
[11:08] <Adri2000> but maybe it's not easier to maintain a package in debian than uploading a package to revu
[11:08] <Tonio_> not in my opinion at least
[11:09] <Tonio_> I merge all my patches with upstream and I work close to the kde-extras debian packaging team
[11:10] <Tonio_> but if the goal is to get the packages in debian in the first place, what is the need of revu then ?
[11:10] <Adri2000> anyway, Tonio_, seems that the debian package needs a fix for the desktop file (and maybe something(s) else, I haven't looked at everything yet), can I take care of that?
[11:10] <Tonio_> Adri2000: sure
[11:10] <Adri2000> ok
[11:10] <Tonio_> Adri2000: my package has a patch for the desktop file
[11:11] <Tonio_> all my packages have since upstream desktop files are generally incomplete
[11:11] <Adri2000> a patch for what exactly?
[11:11] <fdoving> nite.
[11:11] <Adri2000> because the problem here is that the .desktop file is installed in /usr/share/games/applications/
[11:11] <Tonio_> Adri2000: correct category, description etc...
[11:11] <Tonio_> nite fdoving
[11:11] <Adri2000> ok, not the same problem
[11:11] <Tonio_> Adri2000: what is your issue then ?
[11:12] <Adri2000> it doesn't appear in the menu
[11:12] <Adri2000> and I don't see anything else in this directory
[11:12] <Tonio_> Adri2000: hum sorry no this package doesn't have a patch from me
[11:12] <Tonio_> I got them merged with upstream so I removed it
[11:12] <Tonio_> Adri2000: really ?
[11:13] <Adri2000> yeah, I don't know if this directory works in debian or if it's a mistake
[11:13] <Tonio_> let me have a look
[11:14] <Tonio_> Adri2000: the default desktop file works for me
[11:14] <Tonio_> misses an icon though
[11:14] <Tonio_> but I can see it in the menus
[11:14] <Adri2000> in the package from debian?
[11:14] <Tonio_> Adri2000: tried to run kbuildsycoca
[11:14] <Tonio_> ?
[11:14] <Tonio_> Adri2000: no the ubuntu package, but it is default
[11:15] <Adri2000> I'm talking of the package from debian :p
[11:15] <Tonio_> I don't touch anything on that point
[11:15] <Tonio_> Adri2000: yes but there shouldn't ve any difference
[11:16] <Tonio_> Adri2000: where is installed the desktop file in your case ?
[11:17] <Adri2000> /usr/share/games/applications/briquolo.desktop
[11:18] <Tonio_> Adri2000: /usr/share/applications/briquolo.desktop
[11:18] <Tonio_> that's what I have
[11:18] <Adri2000> Tonio_: I think the difference is here in the package from debian:
[11:18] <Tonio_> and that's the default in the build system
[11:18] <Adri2000> --datadir=\$${prefix}/share/games
[11:18] <Tonio_> Adri2000: yes there is the problem$
[11:18] <Adri2000> your package isn't installed in the games/ directory?
[11:19] <Adri2000> directories*
[11:19] <Tonio_> Adri2000: nope
[11:19] <Tonio_> it is installed as a "normal" application
[11:20] <Tonio_> all files go to their standard directorys (/usr/bin /usr/share etc...)
[11:20] <Adri2000> ok, that's the difference with the package from debian :) I will fix the location of the .desktop file and I think it will be ok
[11:21] <Tonio_> Adri2000: yup
[12:01] <imbrandon> moins all
[12:02] <LaserJock> hi imbrandon
[12:02] <imbrandon> heya LaserJock
[12:03] <luisbg> hey LaserJock
[12:04] <imbrandon> LaserJock: did i give you the horatio login info ?
[12:04] <LaserJock> imbrandon: yep
[12:05] <imbrandon> LaserJock, kk, couldent rember
[12:05] <imbrandon> :)