[18:28] <pmatulis> can the installation of third-party drivers be automated/preseeded somehow?
[18:52] <pmatulis> hmm, this should work:
[18:52] <pmatulis> d-i anna/choose_modules multiselect driver-injection-disk-detect
[18:52] <pmatulis> driver-injection-disk-detect driver-injection-disk/load boolean true
[22:22] <xnox> pmatulis: it should, and with most recent releases it should be done automatic...


[02:27] <blackboxsw> rharper: looks like you can add public ips without restarting instances in azure, so there's a gap with a cold-plug only solution
[02:30] <blackboxsw> ... and they don't let you assign multiple public ip addresses to a single nic
[02:34] <blackboxsw> examples https://hackmd.io/aODzXfa_TOikNtYBLt8erA
[02:48] <blackboxsw> but, having said that, the public ip isn't represented anyway via dhcp responses on azure, it's all private anyway
[12:34] <smoser> blackboxsw: yeah, so new solution there is as good as old ifconfig udev solution
[12:34] <smoser> err.. ifupdown
[13:08] <smoser> vila: were you able to reproduce that /var/lib/cloud/instance/ being a dir ?
[13:09] <smoser> i have seen it but looked at code and did not ever understand how it go tthat way
[13:09] <smoser> (other than the fact that it was probably created by ensure_dir)
[13:09] <smoser> write_file -> ensure_dir
[13:12] <vila> smoser: blackboxsw is to blame for the scenario understanding ;-)
[13:12] <vila> https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1775074 explains some bits
[13:12] <vila> err, wrong one
[13:13] <vila> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1775086
[13:14] <vila> smoser: with cloud-init.service removed by systemd, instance is not created (where exactly I don't know)
[13:15] <vila> smoser: that's still a bit vague but I would never have figured out alone ;-)
[13:15] <vila> smoser: that's still a bit vague but I would never have figured it out alone ;-)
[13:21] <vila> smoser: so basically can be reproduced by removing/disabling cloud-init.service ?
[13:22] <smoser> vila: yeah, i guess that could do it. thanks.
[15:06] <rharper> smoser: standup ?
[15:06] <smoser> oh. sure.
[20:41] <blackboxsw> cloud-init pulling data from azure's IMDS service https://code.launchpad.net/~raharper/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/341662
[20:41] <blackboxsw> oops bad paste cloud-init pulling data from azure's IMDS http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/dxQmhV5Fch/
[20:42] <blackboxsw> now cobbling up network v2 for the datasouce
[20:42] <blackboxsw> now cobbling up network v2 for the datasource


[00:40] <SergioMeneses> hi guys!
[00:43] <tonyhub> hi!
[02:50] <SergioMeneses> Lubuntu daily amd64 works! phillw  I'm testing the alternative version right now
[03:20] <vibhav> pitti: ping
[03:48] <vibhav> pitti: If you get time, please have a look at https://code.launchpad.net/~vibhavp/ubuntu/raring/libg3d/add-autopkgtest/+merge/151341
[17:29] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, around?
[18:31] <cprofitt> SergioMeneses: yes
[18:31] <cprofitt> sorry for the dealy was eating lunch with the kids
[18:52] <SergioMeneses> hi cprofitt ! I was eating too xD btw, did you update the friendly wiki page?
[18:52] <SergioMeneses> or, do we have to do something more?
[19:02] <cprofitt> I have not updated it
[19:03] <cprofitt> SergioMeneses: You can update it with your changes whenever you are ready
[19:04] <cprofitt> if the blueprint that was proposed for UDS is approved we may have some more concrete content next week
[19:06] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, I think we can keep both :) just renamed one
[19:06] <cprofitt> that could work as well
[19:06] <SergioMeneses> let me do some changes in a moment
[19:07] <cprofitt> I am curious how the potential change to rolling release affects UF
[19:15] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, :O
[19:16] <SergioMeneses> btw cprofitt look https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly
[19:16] <SergioMeneses> and here is the old wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly_old
[19:16] <SergioMeneses> we keep all information
[19:17] <SergioMeneses> I think we can show this in our blueprint (or session) and why not making a blog post about our new face :)
[19:18] <cprofitt> looks good
[19:18] <cprofitt> thanks SergioMeneses
[19:18] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, no problem!
[19:18] <SergioMeneses> and we could add more information and make it more "friendly"
[19:56] <phillw> SergioMeneses thanks, I've been out today to visit a friend. Please ensure you tick them off as 'passed' on the iso tracker.
[19:57] <SergioMeneses> phillw, about what?
[19:57] <SergioMeneses> lubuntu iso testing?
[19:57] <phillw> SergioMeneses yes :)
[19:58] <phillw> (02:50:52) SergioMeneses: Lubuntu daily amd64 works! phillw  I'm testing the alternative version right now
[19:58] <SergioMeneses> phillw, sure! dont worry today I have planed to work on ubuntu iso but my internet connection is too sloooooow
[19:58] <phillw> sorry, I follow pings 1st and then catch up on what else has been going on :)
[19:58] <SergioMeneses> phillw, I think you should go and read planet.ubuntu.com
[19:58] <SergioMeneses> xD
[19:59] <SergioMeneses> phillw, me too - SergioMenesesAFK
[20:00] <phillw> SergioMeneses I'm still trying to get ubuntu server 10.04 LTS installed onto a VM. It's being a royal pain in the neck :)
[20:00] <SergioMeneses> phillw, jaja
[20:01] <phillw> I'm trying to split the work-load so that I do the ubuntu desktop on piglet and one of the trusted testers can use a VM on my dedicated server.
[20:05] <SergioMeneses> phillw, do we need sessions for this uds? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-1303
[20:05] <Noskcaj> SergioMeneses, phillw. just try and list all the bugs, i get 4-5 every testcase everyone else gets one at most
[20:06] <SergioMeneses> Noskcaj, which testcases? applications or daily isos?
[20:07]  * SergioMeneses is still downloading ubuntu daily: ---- 47%
[20:09] <phillw> Noskcaj: this was an unusual request. going from 10.04 --> 13.04 is not supported, but a request was made to get a list of all the failures that will occur.
[20:09] <Noskcaj> phillw, strange that is asked for.
[20:09] <Noskcaj> SergioMeneses, iso tests
[20:09] <phillw> Noskcaj: not at all, given who asked :)
[20:10] <Noskcaj> :)
[20:10] <SergioMeneses> Noskcaj, I've tested Lubuntu amd64 versions and all work fine, even the alternate iso...
[20:11] <SergioMeneses> I think we need more testers for ubuntu-studio and kubuntu
[20:11] <Noskcaj> SergioMeneses, the slideshow is still 12.10, the release notes link is broken
[20:11] <Noskcaj> SergioMeneses, i will sync kubuntu now.
[20:12] <SergioMeneses> Noskcaj, aaa ok! but they are not a huge bug ... even we have not background yet
[20:14] <Noskcaj> true
[20:14] <SergioMeneses> ok guys i have to go out for a while! see you soon
[20:25] <phillw> Noskcaj: the update for lubuntu slide show will arrive, it is being pretty much re-designed.
[20:26] <Noskcaj> phillw, sounds interesting. did you hear that xubuntu might be going 1gb soon?
[20:27] <phillw> Noskcaj: I thought they already had decided upon that for 13.04
[20:27] <phillw> I do recall reading about it.
[20:27] <Noskcaj> yeah, maybe, i forget exactly
[20:29] <phillw> I think only lubuntu are now committed to CD sized ISO releases.
[20:30] <Noskcaj> and while ppc support stays, you will need to stay at cd
[20:34] <phillw> Noskcaj: Julien is commited to CD size, not only for PPC, but also for older kit that does not have  a dvd reader.


[03:09] <canthus13> paultag: Back in CA again?
[14:13] <gilbert> paultag: awesome!
[14:14] <gilbert> paultag: i'm now waiting for fd approval since feb 15th
[15:05] <paultag> gilbert: :)
[15:05] <paultag> canthus13: sure am
[15:44] <thafreak> anyone know the ubuntu virtualization channel?


[00:34] <RAOF> AAaargh.
[00:35] <RAOF> Stupid partial-armhf-chroot stupid bastard of a thing.
[01:36] <RAOF> Um, why doesn't find_path actually stat the file it's looking for?
[01:42] <duflu_> RAOF: maybe because stat will give you the real answer, whereas it may be useful to retain a relative path like that passed in?
[01:43] <RAOF> duflu_: But then how does it find the file?
[01:43] <duflu> Magic!
[01:44] <RAOF> Specifically - I can see that find_library stats for the library it's looking for, and indeed, find_library(GLIB_LIBRARY ...) is finding the glib library.
[01:45] <RAOF> However, find_path(GLIB_INCLUDE_DIR glibconfig.h ...) isn't statting glibconfig.h, and isn't finding GLIB_INCLUDE_DIR.
[02:04] <RAOF> Ok, that's super annoying.
[02:58] <duflu> RAOF: I missed that, and hope it's not my lack of IRC stability that's annoying
[02:58] <duflu> It's annoying me though
[03:22] <RAOF> duflu: Ah, no. I was just getting annoyed at cmake and our convoluted build system.
[03:53]  * RAOF wins the buildsystem wranger award!
[04:09] <duflu> gcc wins the award for compiler most confused and lost by a missing parenthesis
[04:10] <duflu> I shouldn't have to switch to clang just to figure out what's wrong.
[04:11] <RAOF> duflu: Correct! Have export CC=clang; export CXX=clang++ in your .profile! :)
[05:15] <RAOF> Ooh, we've gained a .clang-format directive.
[06:32] <RAOF> Arse.
[06:33] <RAOF> Where is the configuration of the mako testrunner?
[06:33] <RAOF> Also, how do we change it?
[06:33] <RAOF> (cf: http://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/mir-mediumtests-runner-mako/259/console , which is a failure because of a shiny new libumockdev0 dependency that's not getting resolved)
[07:03] <sgx1> hi, i haven't followed mir  for several months. did your developement focus change from lp:mir to lp:mir/devel ?
[07:03] <duflu> sgx1: Yes
[07:03] <duflu> :)
[07:15] <sgx1> I've a local lp:mir repository. is it possible to  create a a local lp:mir/devel from this and pull updates instead of 'bzr branch lp:mir/devel" ? i'm not familiar bazaar.
[07:20] <duflu> sgx1: You should "bzr branch lp:~mir-team/mir/development-branch mydevbranch" so you can pull regular updates. But if you're not happy doing that then just download the source tarball: https://launchpad.net/mir/+milestone/0.1.4
[07:22] <sgx1> what's the difference between  lp:~mir-team/mir/development-branch and lp:mir/devel?
[07:28] <sgx1> thanks anyway.
[09:44] <alan_g> alf__: just checking - you're happy with updates to expose-rpc-infrastructure?
[09:47] <alf__> alan_g: yes
[09:47] <alan_g> thanks
[09:49] <duflu> alan_g: I think we should usually try to wait for a minimum of 2 (human) reviews. Sorry I didn't get to it...
[09:50] <duflu> Oh, perhaps it did almost get 2
[09:50] <alan_g> duflu: Yeah. And it is low risk of breaking things
[09:51] <duflu> alan_g: Well, start of a new mini-cycle too. So lower risk
[09:52] <alan_g> ;)
[10:01] <alan_g> alf__: can you land build-options-for-tests? (or abandon it)
[10:03] <alf__> alan_g: I will try to sync with CI today, to change the jenkins scripts. If I don't manage to do it today I will mark it as WIP, so it doesn't clutter the MP list.
[14:05] <greyback> hey folks, what does the error message: what():  error during hwc set()
[14:13] <alan_g> greyback: I don't recognise it, but sounds like something kdub might know. Do you have any more details?
[14:13] <greyback> alan_g: not really no, it pops up during random autopilot tests.
[14:14] <greyback> https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1262982 is best I could log about it
[14:15] <alan_g> greyback: Hmm. The reporting code should be better - one of the points of boost exceptions is that they give file & line number.
[14:16] <greyback> alan_g: here's one instance: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/generic-mediumtests-runner-mako/4625/artifact/results/log/unity8.log
[14:20] <alan_g> greyback: there's nothing there that points me to the right place. Can you wait for kdub to wake up?
[14:21] <alan_g> alf__: ^^ any idea?
[14:22] <anpok> since when did this start to pop up?
[14:25] <alf__> alan_g: greyback: it's from mga::HWC11Device::post() (or less likely mga::HWC10Device::post(), depending on the device). I am guessing it has to do with screen blanking, but not certain.
[14:25] <greyback> anpok: not really sure, possible it's been around for a while
[14:25] <anpok> but not started to happen, like mid of last week?
[14:26] <greyback> alf__: that would be a possibility anyway
[14:26] <greyback> anpok: think longer
[15:32] <anpok> hm i have issues building for android
[15:34] <anpok> the hwcomposer_defs.h defines a set of HWC_DEVICE_API_VERSION_X_X macors that map to HARDWRE_DEVICE_API_VERSION_2 .. which should be defined hardware.h
[15:35] <anpok> but hardware.h only has HARDWARE_DEVICE_API_VERSION
[16:15] <anpok> ah ok cleaning up the var/apt/cache/ helps
[16:18] <kdub> anpok, old versions of android-headers needed a patch for that, which went in mid-december
[16:26] <anpok> kdub: I had two versions of them downloaded, and both of them installed - for some reason the older one won
[16:48] <kdub> alf__, alan_g so with the db-optimize branch, the proposed design is set to keep the gl rendering in the compositor class
[16:49] <kdub> with the sequence being DisplayBuffer::optimize(), Renderer::render(), DisplayBuffer::post()
[16:50] <kdub> we could also just have DisplayBuffer::post(gl_rendering_functor), which I didn't go with because I wanted to keep the responsibility to GL-render out of DisplayBufferr
[16:51] <rsalveti> kdub: hey, got one issue with mir when porting to 4.4
[16:51] <kdub> rsalveti, i'd be surprised if there wasn't one or two issues :)
[16:51] <kdub> what is seen?
[16:51] <rsalveti> kdub: seems the qcom devices dropped the rendering support on fb devices
[16:51] <rsalveti> kdub: so fb->post doesn't work anymore
[16:51] <rsalveti> seems that this is not an issue with sf as it uses the hwcomposer for post
[16:52] <kdub> well, we should be able to use hwcomposer for that one too...
[16:52] <rsalveti> kdub: yeah, seems that's the only issue
[16:52] <rsalveti> kdub: we should probably use hwcomposer by default for that unless it's not available
[16:53] <rsalveti> which might be what sf is doing already
[16:53] <kdub> rsalveti, we use hwcomposer as default, and fall-back to the fb module
[16:53] <rsalveti> oh, cool then
[16:53] <kdub> so something isn't loading in hwcomposer, then we try fb, and that doesn't work either
[16:53] <kdub> i'd guess that...
[16:53] <kdub> hwcomposer is now like version 1.2 or something
[16:53] <rsalveti> yeah
[16:54] <kdub> not a lot of code change for us, but we currently fail if we detect version 1.2
[16:54] <rsalveti> kdub: oh, ok
[16:54] <kdub> rsalveti, i could try the image and see if i can bump it to work
[16:54] <rsalveti> let me check, but I think mako is using 1.2
[16:54] <rsalveti> kdub: yup, will publish one image in a few
[16:54] <kdub> rsalveti, cool, thanks
[16:55] <alf__> kdub: it could be DisplayBuffer::post(unoptimized_rendering_functor) with unoptimized_rendering_functor(list of surfaces). DisplayBuffer doesn't need to know anything about GL in particular
[16:55] <rsalveti> I/SurfaceFlinger(  652): Using composer version 1.2
[16:55] <rsalveti> kdub: ^
[16:56] <rsalveti> in theory android 4.4 already supports even 1.3
[16:56] <kdub> yeah, so my hope is that i can just bump the versioning checks in mir, and it should work
[16:57] <kdub> the api is not much different between 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3
[16:57] <kdub> (there were bigger jumps in api between fb module, 1.0, and 1.1)
[16:58] <rsalveti> right, cool
[17:07] <anpok> kdub: is it possible that the hwc cherry picks a few buffers in the middle of the array?
[17:08] <anpok> bbl
[17:09] <kdub> anpok, sure, if its possible
[17:09] <kdub> like, if you had 4 tiled windows, it could pick the lower-left one, although in the array its between two gl composited ones
[18:54] <anpok> kdub: who is using setScreenPowerMode?
[18:56] <kdub> anpok, where do you see that symbol?
[18:57] <anpok> dbusscreen.cpp
[18:57] <anpok> so somebody wires it with powerd?
[18:57] <anpok> or is it maybe used from a qml script?
[18:58] <kdub> yes, that signal comes from dbus
[18:58] <kdub> right now, that's powerd, but it could come from anywhere i suppose
[23:56] <RAOF> robotfuel: How are the mako test images set up? Specifically, can I get another package installed on it (or, better, get the test script to run ‘apt-get -f install’ after its dpkg run so that added dependencies get resolved automatically)?
[23:58] <robotfuel> RAOF: It's been a while let me look
[23:59] <RAOF> robotfuel: cf: http://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/mir-mediumtests-runner-mako/259/console


[01:23] <jjfrv8_> bluesabre, I had installed the ppa before I took those screenshots but I just got some updates tonight...
[01:24] <jjfrv8_> and now it looks like slickymaster's. http://imagebin.org/275317
[01:25] <jjfrv8_> latest version on top.
[01:37] <ali1234> i think i may have cracked this one
[01:44] <ali1234> yup
[01:47] <bluesabre> congrats jjfrv8_ !
[01:48] <Unit193> Reminder about the Xubuntu Community meeting tomorrow at 1500UTC.
[01:48] <bluesabre> ali1234, that sounds promising
[01:48] <bluesabre> Unit193, knome; won't be able to make it
[01:48] <Unit193> bluesabre: Nor will I. :)
[01:50] <ali1234> bluesabre: it was indeed caused by that snippet of code i pasted above
[01:51] <ali1234> i still don't know why, but I have it working again
[01:51] <ali1234> updated the bug anyway
[01:51] <bluesabre> cool
[01:51] <bluesabre> well, HMMMMMMMMMMM............ isn't valid syntax ;)
[01:51] <ali1234> that was my commentary
[01:52] <ali1234> anyway, i have a theory for what has happened here, off to test it out
[01:52] <bluesabre> just messing :), good luck!
[01:52] <Unit193> knome: Anything you think I had for the meeting feel free to carry. :P
[02:10] <ali1234> so this is the fix http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/libdbusmenu/appindicatorfix/revision/462
[02:10] <ali1234> still no idea why this fixes it, as it is the gtk2 version of the library that isn't working - this change should not affect the gtk3 version
[02:23] <ali1234> PPA with fix is waiting to build: https://launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/+archive/dbusmenu
[09:33] <slickymaster> dood morning all
[09:34] <slickymaster> good ^^
[09:50] <knome> Unit193, alllllright.
[10:06] <lderan> hello knome, what shall we do about the slideshow thing, anyone i can poke to find their opinions?
[10:07] <knome> can you remind what slideshow are we talking about?
[10:07] <lderan> i can indeed
[10:08] <lderan> https://code.launchpad.net/~lderan/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/test/+merge/180747
[10:08] <knome> ah, that
[10:08] <knome> umm, can you ask me again in two hours? :)
[10:08] <lderan> sure thing :P
[10:08] <knome> ta
[10:40] <brainwash> ali1234: "I DO NOT understand why this works" :D
[13:06] <lderan> slightly later then 2 hours but knome ping
[14:54] <ochosi> brainwash: care to explain why bug #1231439 is related to shimmer-themes?
[14:59] <brainwash> ochosi: ... give me some time to actually write a comment :P
[14:59] <brainwash> now check again
[15:00] <brainwash> well, it's probably the gtk engine or?
[15:01] <elfy> is it not meeting time?
[15:01] <brainwash> elfy: please confirm bug 1231439 :)
[15:02] <ochosi> brainwash: we're using the default engine, so it would mean it's a bug in gtk itself
[15:02] <ochosi> elfy: i guess it is, question is, who is actually here for it
[15:02] <brainwash> ochosi: it does not happen with the unity themes, or the ugly default xfce ones
[15:02] <brainwash> or the default kde gtk theme
[15:03] <ochosi> brainwash: well those do use different engines (xfce-engine and unico)
[15:03] <elfy> brainwash: not even got gnome-system-log installed
[15:04] <brainwash> ochosi: so it happens with all the shimmer-themes, therefore I've added them to the affected packages list
[15:04] <ochosi> brainwash: yeah, i understand. i'll see what we can do about it
[15:04] <brainwash> ochosi: thanks :)
[15:04] <elfy> brainwash: can confirm that it doesn't do anything but crash
[15:05] <brainwash> elfy: try a non shimmer-theme
[15:05] <elfy> ochosi: not many I guess :)
[15:06] <elfy> brainwash: works with high-contrast
[15:08] <brainwash> elfy: thanks for confirming
[15:09] <elfy> welcome
[15:10] <micahg-work> did I miss the meeting?
[15:11] <micahg-work> oh, good, it's UTC based
[15:12] <knome> no, you didn't
[15:12] <knome> why wouldn't it be UTC based? :P
[15:13] <skellat> We're only 13 minutes late starting then
[15:13] <knome> hmm, right
[15:13] <knome> well noticed!
[15:13] <knome> i still hate DST :(
[15:14] <knome> so.... who's here for the meeting? :)
[15:14] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[15:14] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 31 15:14:46 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:14] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:14] <knome> #topic Open action items from previous meeting
[15:14] <jjfrv8> o/
[15:14] <elfy> o/
[15:14] <knome> #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
[15:14] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
[15:14] <knome> still TBD
[15:15] <knome> skellat, have you prepared a blog article about upgrading? :)
[15:15] <PhilDick> i came to lurk the meeting, hoping to get involved in 14.04 rollout/qa
[15:15] <knome> PhilDick, welcome!
[15:15] <knome> PhilDick, you should talk with elfy after the meeting is over
[15:15] <PhilDick> ok
[15:15] <skellat> knome: In light of a particular bug issue, it is best we put that action item on deep freeze
[15:15] <skellat> Bug 1208204
[15:15] <knome> ok, i'll just let it slip from the agenda
[15:16] <knome> #topic Strategy Document reviewing
[15:16] <knome> yeah, i've been too busy to get the new version out
[15:16] <knome> #action knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week
[15:16] <meetingology> ACTION: knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week
[15:16] <knome> #topic Team updates
[15:16] <knome> does anybody have updates since last week?
[15:17] <skellat> Tomorrow is the deadline for booking UDS sessions
[15:17] <elfy> nothing to update from me
[15:18] <knome> let's bump the UDS discussion first after announcements.
[15:18] <knome> any other updates?
[15:19] <ochosi> nothing much from my side
[15:19] <jjfrv8> #info nothing from docs
[15:19] <knome> yeah, as expected, still quiet in the development front
[15:19] <ochosi> well, there's some news in xfdesktop
[15:19] <knome> aha, go ahead
[15:19] <lderan> belated here for the meeting
[15:20] <ochosi> not sure that really belongs here, but in many of our reviews ppl complained about us not shipping a set of nice wallpapers by default
[15:20] <ochosi> a few things have become easier with the new xfdesktop (4.11)
[15:20] <knome> ochosi, oh great :)
[15:20] <ochosi> there are builtin options to change wallpapers based on time
[15:20] <knome> we do have the community wallpapers idea still WIP, and i think the LTS release is the perfect place to introduce that
[15:20] <ochosi> so we could have a morning, noon, afternoon and evening variant of our wallpaper
[15:21] <ochosi> yup, i agree
[15:21] <ochosi> and the thing is that the new xfdesktop allows users to simply select a folder which contains wallpapers, which is much better than the current system of being able to only add single wallpapers to the list (which would disappear after logout)
[15:21] <ochosi> so i hope we can get a 4.11 release into 14.04
[15:22] <ochosi> (as i don't expect xfce4.12 to land in time for 14.04)
[15:22] <skellat> ochosi: What's the timeline looking like for 4.12 upstream?
[15:22] <ochosi> many fixes also went into the desktop, eric was quite active on it
[15:22] <ochosi> skellat: it's unknown
[15:23] <skellat> ochosi: Okay
[15:23] <ochosi> basically xfce has become a one-man show (especially wrt core-releases)
[15:23] <knome> ochosi, i agree with trying to get the 4.11 release in. can you add that to the roadmap and specify the package we need and the reason? :)
[15:23] <ochosi> so as long as NSchermer isn't around/active, nothing much is going to happen
[15:23] <slickymaster> hi guys, sorry for being late :(
[15:23] <lderan> hey slickymaster
[15:23] <ochosi> knome: yeah, will try to quickly add that (the package is already in the 4.12ppa)
[15:24] <knome> ochosi, cheers
[15:24] <ochosi> so we can even ask ppl to test things *now*
[15:24] <elfy> excellent
[15:24] <ochosi> and report issues if they exist (so far i've not experienced any extra bugs with the 4.11 version, and i've been using it for a while)
[15:25] <micahg-work> ochosi, I won't land 4.11 unless 4.12 is guaranteed to come behind it
[15:25] <knome> #info xfdesktop 4.11 has some nice features; builtin support for wallpapers based on the time, support for selecting a specific directory where xfdesktop looks for wallpapers instead of the fixed system directory
[15:25] <knome> micahg-work, i think we need to discuss that
[15:25] <micahg-work> I don't like the idea of dropping in pre-release versions unless necessary
[15:25] <micahg-work> we selected the pieces that look stable enough
[15:25] <knome> micahg-work, landing stuff is fine from my point of view, as long as we test it thoroughly
[15:25] <ochosi> yeah, so why not continue to do so?
[15:26] <micahg-work> knome, sorry, didn't mean to be snarky :)
[15:26] <ochosi> (i mean, continue to land pieces that seem stable enough)
[15:26] <knome> micahg-work, the list we dropped in for 13.10 was short because of the lack of time, not because components weren't stable enough
[15:26] <micahg-work> ochosi, because upgrade paths might become messy, as this is an LTS, I'd prefer to keep it as stable as sanely possible
[15:27] <micahg-work> if this were LTS+1 I'd have no problem dropping in the prereleases if they looked stable
[15:27] <micahg-work> I'd just rather not do it for the LTS unless we have no choice
[15:27] <knome> as i said, i think we need to discuss what the policy re: including stuff is
[15:27] <ochosi> micahg-work: i agree, in this case there's a migrate-patch: http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/commit/?id=af240b063cd0678dc1739ffa28e93f1ff530bead
[15:28] <ochosi> just saying, xfdesktop should take care of the transition by itself
[15:28] <knome> ultimately, us dropping in some pieces of 4.11 can help xfce release 4.12 sooner.
[15:28] <ochosi> +1
[15:28] <knome> and we should definitely be in touch with them about releasing 4.12 too
[15:28] <micahg-work> I wouldn't mind getting it packaged in a PPA, I'm just averse to throwing it in the archiv
[15:29] <ochosi> well, it's already in a PPA ;)
[15:29] <knome> my point is that if nobody is pushing stuff forward, we're going to stay quite frozen
[15:29] <micahg-work> if we knew 4.12 was being released in Jan or Feb, this wouldn't be an issue, but that was supposed to happen at the beginning of the year
[15:30] <ochosi> yeah, as i said, the situation weighs more or less on NSchermer's shoulders
[15:30] <ochosi> and there aren't many other contributors to -core
[15:31] <ochosi> i could get in touch with him about a 4.12 release-date, but i'm very pessimistic about that
[15:31] <knome> we should all sit down, with nick, and discuss about this openly
[15:31] <ochosi> there are still things left to do for 4.12, and i fear many of these things would have to be done by him
[15:31] <skellat> We need to get that done before UDS anyhow as we need to have our features settled by then
[15:32] <ochosi> simply because there aren't many other ppl around
[15:32] <knome> with our and their concerns, the ways we can help them release sooner
[15:32] <knome> skellat, yes and no... that's quite subjective :)
[15:33] <skellat> knome: Feature Definition Freeze supposedly falls the same week as UDS in the Trusty Tahr schedule
[15:33] <knome> skellat, yes, i'm aware of that, but it's still so-so if we "really" need to have everything planned; we've slipped that times and times...
[15:33] <skellat> Okay
[15:34] <knome> skellat, ...and nobody comes asking us what we're preparing, or need our list
[15:34] <skellat> Okay
[15:34] <ochosi> yeah, i think these are things we can decide for ourselves
[15:34] <ochosi> but ofc it's helpful if we have some kind of feature definition freeze (in theory)
[15:34] <knome> of course!
[15:35] <knome> there's still a week to go, and tbh, i think that's enough time for us to sit down and think what we want *even if 4.12 didn't land*
[15:35] <knome> i mean it's not a huge list, and it's not something that's going to break the world.
[15:36] <ochosi> knome: one more thing we could discuss is the current panel layout
[15:36] <knome> ochosi, okay.
[15:36] <ochosi> i'm mostly happy with the top-panel, but i'm wondering about the bottom panel
[15:36] <knome> ochosi, bluesabre, micahg-work: can we set some date in the next 7 days to sit down and discuss?
[15:36] <micahg-work> Sunday is probably better for me
[15:36] <ochosi> i mean i personally haven't used that one for ages and i'm really wondering how useful it is
[15:36] <micahg-work> otherwise, it'll be too late for all of you
[15:36] <lderan> i remove the bottom
[15:36] <knome> sunday works for me, if it's late enough
[15:37] <ochosi> hmm, sunday i'm travelling all day, but depends on the time
[15:37] <knome> 22UTC?
[15:37] <knome> ochosi, micahg-work: late enough?
[15:37] <micahg-work> sounds good to me
[15:37] <ochosi> late enough or too late :)
[15:37] <elfy> ochosi: +1 to bottom panel and lderan I do as well
[15:37] <knome> ochosi, propose.
[15:37] <ochosi> i'll try to make it
[15:37] <micahg-work> well, that's late afternoon for me :)
[15:38] <knome> ochosi, i can make it later... and earlier.
[15:38] <ochosi> knome: ok, let me quickly check my train schedule
[15:38] <knome> sure
[15:38] <ochosi> elfy: +1 means drop the bottom panel or keep it in this context?
[15:38] <PhilDick> i remove bottom panel
[15:38] <knome> i'm fine with dropping the panel
[15:38] <micahg-work> I'm fine with 22:00 UTC
[15:39] <knome> micahg-work, let's wait for ochosi's train schedule confirmation :)
[15:39] <elfy> ochosi: I mean I never use it and in fact remove it
[15:39] <ochosi> i think if we add e.g. whiskermenu by default (which i hope we will), it's easay enough to launch apps
[15:39] <ochosi> easy
[15:39] <knome> *coughs* :)
[15:39] <ochosi> ok, thanks for the quick feedback
[15:39]  * ochosi adds it to the roadmap
[15:39] <knome> ochosi, sun schedule?
[15:39] <ochosi> knome: sure sure, just one sec...
[15:40] <micahg-work> I think the panel adds a nice touch, but if we can easily launch apps, it should be fine to remove
[15:40] <knome> i don't know who actually use the panel
[15:40] <micahg-work> let's make sure we have docs on how to add it back for people
[15:41] <micahg-work> I use it to launch email/browser
[15:41] <knome> it's somewhat hidden, and otoh, when it opens, it's a distraction
[15:41] <knome> that's why i remove it
[15:41] <ochosi> yeah, either add a real dock or drop that
[15:41] <ochosi> (imo)
[15:41] <jjfrv8> it's one of the first things I do on a new install - remove it, that is
[15:41] <ochosi> knome: so i think it might work for me, let's make it 22utc
[15:41] <knome> not sure if a real dock is any less distractive.
[15:41] <knome> okay, 22 utc it is
[15:42] <ochosi> dunno, i've been using plank for a while now and i enjoy it so far
[15:42] <knome> #info Discussion about cherry-picking on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel
[15:42] <knome> #undo
[15:42] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x18d3690>
[15:42] <PhilDick> keep in mind xfce/xubuntu users may be avoiding bells and whistles intentionally. otoh those here may not be representative of all xub users
[15:42] <ochosi> it also fits xubuntu nicely, because it's lightweight etc
[15:42] <knome> #info Discussion about cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues) on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel
[15:43] <knome> ochosi, i think we can discuss about the panel configuration at a later time, in a general meeting
[15:43] <ochosi> knome: we could try to invite some xfce devs too..
[15:43] <knome> yep, we should.
[15:43] <knome> #info ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting
[15:43] <knome> err
[15:43] <knome> #undo
[15:43] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x15afe10>
[15:43] <ochosi> i'll send a quick note to the xfdesktop-dev
[15:43]  * elfy will try to be there for that meeting so he can keep up with what he might need to think about
[15:43] <knome> #action ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting
[15:43] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting
[15:43] <knome> elfy, cheers :) we will naturally also make notes...
[15:43] <knome> #topic Announcements
[15:44] <elfy> yep - not the same as following a discussion though at the time :)
[15:44] <knome> #info Today is set as the last day of brainstorming for the Roadmap; the team shall approve blueprints next week
[15:44] <knome> #info After approving, people have two weeks to finalize their specifications (where applicable)
[15:45] <knome> any other announcements?
[15:45] <ochosi> bbiab
[15:45] <knome> ochosi, thanks for the announcement
[15:45]  * elfy has a pet peeve that could be an announcement
[15:45] <knome> elfy, go ahead
[15:46] <elfy> does it need an # ?
[15:46] <knome> elfy, #info please
[15:47] <elfy> #info - When I ask people on the -dev list for what's likely to come up that needs testing during the cycle - can they please answer. Because I will be doing so.
[15:47] <knome> yep, we will :)
[15:47] <knome> and we will also try to be in contact the other way; when we know something else/new needs testing, we will let you know
[15:47] <skellat> #info A meeting may be scheduled if circumstances warrant outside the regular team meeting schedule on creating the core seed
[15:48] <elfy> I'd rather know now that something is coming up in a few months - than then when otjher things are planned
[15:48] <knome> elfy, sure. the meetings on sunday and next thurday when we approve things should give you a good idea what we are preparing to land to 14.04 images
[15:48] <lderan> will be going through the list of the gtk apps for autopilot testing and seeing which ones now launch without error that didn't before and update the wiki
[15:49] <knome> lderan, #action lderan ... :)
[15:49] <elfy> #info During the next week I will be mailing -dev list re planning testing (cadence)
[15:49] <knome> elfy, feel free to add that to the meeting schedule as well, if you want that discussed next thu
[15:49] <lderan> #action lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot
[15:49] <meetingology> ACTION: lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot
[15:49]  * knome bows
[15:49] <elfy> lderan: can you keep in touch with me re that
[15:49] <lderan> will do
[15:49] <knome> #topic New and emerging items
[15:50] <lderan> catfish works with it now which is prompting it
[15:50] <knome> #subtopic Xubuntu Core: Do we offer it only as a metapackage or shall we make downloadable media avaiable as well?
[15:50] <elfy> knome: I suspect I will be working next thursday and missing - will leave copious notes
[15:50] <knome> elfy, sure :)
[15:50] <skellat> I can speak to the subtopic briefly
[15:50] <knome> this has been discussed quite a bit, and i think the current stance is "only a metapackage"
[15:50] <knome> skellat, go ahead
[15:50] <micahg-work> would be nice as a netinstall or metapackage, I don't know that we need media unless we have the testers
[15:50] <knome> i would like to avoid the extra image
[15:51] <knome> another option is to make it selectable from the installer, as edubuntu does
[15:51] <knome> i'm not against that, but if you make me choose, just a metapackage works.
[15:51] <skellat> Within the limits of the current approved generation options for installation, we can either generate an image or have a user go through mini.iso
[15:52] <PhilDick> as a potential new qa tester, easier is better.... i'm willing to learn whats required but easier may equal more testers.
[15:52] <elfy> I'd be +1 for whatever is easiest for us as a team to work with
[15:52] <skellat> If core is kept as a strict subset of regular xubuntu-desktop, though
[15:52] <knome> skellat, ...and we can offer it as an option in the installer :)
[15:52] <ochosi> yeah, that'd be really nice
[15:52] <skellat> knome: That would require some hacking on ubiquity to make it available as an option
[15:53] <knome> skellat, sure, but that's completely in our reach, if we want to do that
[15:53] <elfy> and a whole lot of extra testing - do we really think that we'd get that?
[15:53] <skellat> With the way live cd images are generated
[15:53] <skellat> ...
[15:53] <elfy> I don't want to be having to do more tests on milestone days because we've not had sufficient turnout
[15:53] <skellat> core would have to be a strict subset and ubiquity would need additional rules on what to leave behind
[15:53] <knome> elfy, a few more testcases.
[15:53] <knome> skellat, yep.
[15:54] <xnox> skellat: ubiquity supports plugins, so one of xubuntu specific packages can just drop in one .py file as a plugin to fully customize ubiquity. thus actually you can do all of that without touching lp:ubiquity at all =)
[15:54] <elfy> knome: which is ok if you have more than ~20 testers
[15:54] <GridCube> oh meeting
[15:54] <elfy> yep :)
[15:54] <skellat> Thank you xnox.  We'll still need somebody to make the plugin, though.
[15:54] <knome> elfy, i'm not disagreeing or pushing for the ubiquity stuff. just saying *it is possible if we want it*
[15:54] <knome> even from the QA point of view.
[15:55] <elfy> yep - I understand what you're saying - just putting my pov across now :)
[15:55] <knome> of course it's additional burden... but it's about the same as if we reintroduced the alternate images
[15:55] <xnox> skellat: knome: in terms of implementation - ubiquity is stupid and copies everything first, and then does removal. So xubuntu-desktop will be install first, and then you need to intelligently do an $ apt-get remove * step in essence.
[15:55] <skellat> The case behind core remains we give the bare basic subset of desktop, which should require fewer test cases, that installers can then customize as they see fit in lieu of what xubuntu-desktop provides.
[15:56] <elfy> skellat: it's not about what is IN a testcase - but that we rarely have enough people testing what we already have :)
[15:56] <skellat> elfy: True
[15:56] <knome> skellat, we still need/want to test what's in the -desktop metapackage as well
[15:56] <skellat> Ideally the tests would overlap
[15:56] <knome> sure :)
[15:56] <skellat> The same things would be covered
[15:56] <skellat> -core would just have fewer of them than -desktop
[15:56] <knome> skellat, what's your take on the subject? what would you do?
[15:57] <skellat> From what xnox said about ubiquity, I'd generate a separate image
[15:57] <skellat> That way we don't have to deal with ubiquity having to remove things
[15:57] <knome> that would mean quite many new testcases though
[15:57] <skellat> True
[15:58] <knome> which i think isn't sustainable
[15:58] <skellat> My second choice would be fabulous documentation on the art of using mini.iso
[15:58] <knome> okay
[15:58] <knome> so you would try to avoid modifying ubiquity? :)
[15:59] <GridCube> but mini ist a real option to poeple who want -core because they dont have a fast connection
[15:59] <skellat> The plugin could be done as xnox mentions above but then we'd have to worry about dependencies being broken during a remove and possibly creating dead installs
[15:59] <xnox> knome: skellat: alternative is to make the default liveimage xubuntu-core, and ship the rest of xubuntu-desktop in the /pool/ which is installed in-target "the slow way" (same as it was done by alternate image)
[15:59] <knome> GridCube, that's not the only reason why people want -core
[15:59] <GridCube> no, i didnt said it where
[15:59] <xnox> knome: skellat: but then "try xubuntu" would actually be "try xubuntu-core"
[16:00] <knome> xnox, yeah, that's not what we want... whatever we end up doing, -desktop should be the default
[16:00] <knome> so anyway, Unit193 has been setting up a list of packages we want for -core
[16:00] <xnox> knome: it can still be default, but there is an option to sacrafice the "livecd session" to be -core.
[16:00] <micahg-work> Personally, I'd rather generate and test one image well, than 2 images poorly
[16:01] <knome> rather than argue about how we'll do it, let's see what it would consist instead, first
[16:01] <knome> micahg-work, +1
[16:01] <elfy> micahg-work: +1
[16:01] <GridCube> +1
[16:01] <GridCube> also thats why we droped alternate in the first time
[16:01] <skellat> As to GridCube's notion of needing a fast connection to download, we would get enough to bootstrap & apt-offline would be useful to grab the rest.  That's why we seed it.
[16:01] <knome> #action Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML
[16:01] <meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML
[16:01] <PhilDick> i'd say that raising visibility of the need for testers and the howto on tester setup might be most impactful option. i'd describe what i found starting from xubuntu.org as subdued and scattered.
[16:01] <micahg-work> I'm fine with the metapackage and tasksel installation option, but let's leave it off the media, I think we have enough to test for the LTS, let's not add to that
[16:02] <elfy> PhilDick: yea - that's on the roadmap for QA actually
[16:02] <knome> PhilDick, that's a different question, and i can't agree more; and it's on the roadmap/plans for 14.04; talk with elfy if you want to help :)
[16:02] <knome> micahg-work, s/for the LTS/for any version/ :)
[16:02] <micahg-work> we can think about adding that for LTS+1 and if it's successful, we can produce a point release for those new images
[16:02] <knome> i don't think it's important enough to warrant a new image
[16:03] <knome> ultimately, it should be only installed by people who know what they are doing
[16:03] <micahg-work> knome, I'd say especially the LTS as we have to support this for 3 years, so we want to get it right, plus, this is what we point non-advanced users to as a rock solid platform
[16:03] <knome> and that kind of people should be comfortable with the mini ISO
[16:03] <knome> micahg-work, sure, but it's true enough for any release, we don't have dozens of testers anyway
[16:04] <knome> anyway, we're agreeing; let's move on
[16:04] <knome> #chair ochosi
[16:04] <meetingology> Current chairs: knome ochosi
[16:04] <knome> ochosi, the floor is yours
[16:04] <ochosi> ok, first of all, thanks slickymaster and jjfrv8 on helping out with parole-docs
[16:04] <knome> ochosi, #subtopic too, if you want to have #info #action
[16:05] <ochosi> it's really a great help for bluesabre and me, so we can focus on fixing bugs
[16:05] <ochosi> knome: sure
[16:05] <ochosi> i think one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs
[16:06] <ochosi> they're in dokuwiki format, which is easier to handle for newbies than docbook etc
[16:07] <ochosi> #info ochosi thinks one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs
[16:07]  * knome facepalms
[16:07] <knome> #undo
[16:07] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x17c9f10>
[16:07] <knome> #subtopic Documentation
[16:07] <knome> #info ochosi thinks one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs
[16:08] <ochosi> ok ok :)
[16:09] <ochosi> #info e.g. for parole-docs we set up a staging site for the docs, we can do the same for other xfce components
[16:09] <ochosi> #info xfdesktop could use some updates, looking ahead at the changes of the 4.12 release
[16:10] <ochosi> #info so feel free to get in touch with ochosi if you wanna help out with xfce docs
[16:11] <knome> that includes jono_ at the redhat nat!
[16:11]  * knome hides
[16:11] <jono_> ;-)
[16:11] <ochosi> ok, that's it from my side
[16:11] <knome> anybody else has any issues?
[16:12] <GridCube> o/
[16:12] <GridCube> i added a few topics to the roadmap
[16:12] <knome> ok
[16:12] <knome> thanks
[16:12] <GridCube> well, two
[16:12] <knome> we will be going through them this week, and deciding about them next thu
[16:12] <GridCube> ok, if we find new ideas can we still add them to the roadmap?
[16:13] <knome> feel free to; i'll add a subheader to separate things added after today though
[16:14] <GridCube> alright
[16:14] <knome> but no reason to not add new items; ultimately, we can use them for planning the U roadmap
[16:14] <GridCube> what about the desktop of the week?
[16:14] <knome> i will need to get to that some day
[16:14] <knome> i've still been really busy; sorry about that :)
[16:14] <GridCube> :/ that doesnt sound very promising
[16:14] <knome> and :(
[16:15] <GridCube> but alright :) i know its really low in the lists
[16:15] <knome> tell that to my clients and real life :P
[16:15] <knome> anything else?
[16:15] <GridCube> do not worry
[16:15] <knome> don't worry, i won't worry... and don't get that wrong, it's on the list and i will eventually get to it ;)
[16:16] <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
[16:17] <knome> #info There is a non-regular meeting on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel about picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues)
[16:17] <knome> #info The next regular Xubuntu community meeting is on Thursday, 7 November at 15UTC on #xubuntu-devel
[16:17] <knome> #endmeeting
[16:17] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 31 16:18:15 2013 UTC.
[16:17] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-31-15.14.moin.txt
[16:17] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-31-15.14.html
[16:17] <knome> ta!
[16:17] <knome> i'll put up the logs up later today
[16:18] <elfy> thanks knome
[16:18] <skellat> I may ask Unit193 to join me for an impromptu core meeting at some point in our local evening
[16:19] <knome> skellat, sure! if you have any conclusions, send them to the list :)
[16:19] <knome> bbl ->
[16:21] <elfy> lderan: PhilDick is kind of onboard for helping out with autopilot as well
[16:27] <lderan> awesome
[16:29] <elfy> he's mid USA I think - he's going to mail the -dev list
[16:39] <lderan> ah righteo
[16:41] <elfy> lderan: you are on that list I assume?
[16:43] <lderan> i think so
[16:43] <lderan> will check
[16:44] <lderan> yup i am \o/
[16:45] <elfy> ok - what I think will be best is to 'talk' it over on there for him
[16:45] <elfy> but we shall see
[18:17] <Unit193> knome: Fantastic, metapackage only is currently how I know to do it, but can tasksel offer without recommends?  I had the metapackage built for saucy and it does work, I created the image only so you wouldn't actually have to do an install, reason why it's bigger is because it has the installer and casper.  (So, it's for lazy people that want to know what's up.)
[18:19] <elfy> brainwash: the fix for restart button is in proposed - works for me
[18:19] <brainwash> elfy: yeah, something which should have been fixed before release =S
[18:20] <elfy> maybe so
[18:20] <brainwash> fixing stuff afterwards won't happen or with a big delay :)
[18:21] <brainwash> oh, "
[18:21] <brainwash> Encoding errors in gmusicbrowser" fixed too
[18:21] <elfy> fixing stuff afterwards won't happen or with a big delay :)
[18:22] <elfy> bbl
[18:29] <brainwash> elfy: did you boot a fresh system to test the updated update-manager package?
[18:56] <elfy> brainwash: nope - enabled proposed and upgraded it
[19:35] <Noskcaj> I just read the meeting logs, a few comments: 1. iso testing should get easier when dan chapman finishes the ubiquity autopilot, should be some time soon. 2. I can't make the dev meeting, i'll have just got to school when it starts. 3. We should look at xfce4-setting 4.11.1, i doubt anything bad will have come from the point release. 4. Should i contact pkg-xfce (since lionel is usually busy), and see if anyone wants to attend the meeting?
[19:37] <elfy> Noskcaj: re #1 - I know and it'd on the roadmap and the pad - which I appear to have removed the link for
[19:38] <elfy> though I've not yet ascertained how much of the iso testing actually gets done
[19:57] <knome> automated testing doesn't replace manual testing though
[19:57] <elfy> no
[19:58] <elfy> and I'm not anticipating it doing so - just making life a bit easier
[19:58] <knome> sure
[19:58] <knome> just saying
[19:59] <elfy> yep :)
[20:26] <skellat> knome: Do we have anything we want to schedule?  The UDS schedule looks open at the moment: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/all/
[20:26] <Unit193> Do XDS again! :D
[20:27] <skellat> LoCo Council also made a decision that it will have its own separate summit so those type issues should hopefully be split away from the UDS schedule this time
[20:27]  * skellat was not the driving force behind the LoCo Summit proposal
[20:27] <skellat> Proposals for UDS are due by tomorrow if we want to book time slots
[20:29] <skellat> Or we can do our own thing again too
[20:30]  * ochosi is afraid of huge video-talk and privacy concern discussions (again)
[20:31] <Unit193> ^
[20:31] <elfy> ^^
[20:32] <ochosi> (especially since i had the feeling the video-conferencing was actually fun and productive)
[20:32] <elfy> I didn't mind it ochosi - but I've still not got a mike nor cam :p
[20:33] <ochosi> elfy: well then that'd be something that silly project money could be used for
[20:33] <ochosi> a webcam with integrated mic is how much, 15€?
[20:33] <elfy> no idea ochosi tbh
[20:34] <lderan> they are fairly cheap nowadays
[20:35] <elfy> subjective :)
[20:37] <elfy> ochosi: but yea I know what you mean - I'd just not have said that would a good use for that project money - seems a bit like asking for a handout :)
[20:37] <ochosi> dunno, if i deeply cared about the money, i'd have claimed it for myself ;)
[20:38] <ochosi> so i think whatever helps xubuntu
[20:38] <elfy> lol
[20:38] <ochosi> and if it improves our communication, i don't mind throwing 15€ of that project money at you :)
[20:38] <elfy> :)
[20:38] <elfy> then I'd feel honour bound to not wander off ...
[20:39] <skellat> I merely bring up UDS to point out a deadline.  While it would be nice to meet as part of it so that we might be able to interest passers-by, we've also lived without that framework too.
[20:39]  * elfy needs a comfy chair now - bbl
[20:40] <elfy> skellat: yep - I think the issue we had before is likely to be the same one again - getting people together at the right time - it's always slap bang in the middle of my working day - so can't contribute
[20:41] <knome> skellat, bugger, forgot that.
[20:41] <knome> elfy, i think buying you a set of mic+cam would be a good use of the project money
[20:41] <knome> elfy, whether we did videoconferencing or not...
[20:42] <knome> elfy, do you have a paypal account?
[21:00] <lderan> aye good use :)
[21:09] <elfy> knome: I think I did have one - but not used it for ages
[21:23] <elfy> knome: yes I do
[21:46] <Unit193> knome: We're not actually going to consider xmir this round, since it's an LTS, right?
[22:29] <brainwash> Unit193: did pitti's systemd-shim package fix the issue on your system?
[22:29] <Unit193> brainwash: Testing tonight.
[22:31] <brainwash> Unit193: alright, it looks like 50% of the comments confirm, that it does fix the issue
[22:31] <Unit193> Read them yesterday, so if no new ones appeared, that's kind of what it looked like.
[22:32] <knome> Unit193, *shrug*
[22:34] <brainwash> can xmir be installed right now?
[22:34] <brainwash> for some random testing
[22:35] <knome> i can't see why not
[22:35] <brainwash> but it won't work ootb or?
[22:36] <knome> when we evaluated it, it worked for some and didn't work for some
[22:36] <knome> i can't see any reason why it shouldn't at least *try* to work when you install it
[22:38] <brainwash> so installing the required packages is enough? no additional adjustments?
[22:38] <knome> i am not the expert on that field, but i would start with that.
[22:39] <brainwash> ok, always hearing stories about xmir made me curious, so I decided to test it
[22:41] <brainwash> it does not look like anyone here is actually testing xmir currently
[22:41] <knome> no, not specifically
[22:41] <brainwash> I assume xmir gets improved and patched on a regular base
[22:42] <knome> olli, hullo!
[22:50] <Unit193> knome: Ran him off.
[22:50] <Unit193> brainwash: Just install the needed packages and you're set, whether it works or not on your hardware is a different story.
[22:50] <knome> ;)
[22:50] <Unit193> You can always try the image. :P
[22:51] <Unit193> Should be unity-system-compositor, and that should pull in xorg-xmir or whatever the packagename is.
[22:51] <brainwash> it's a low end intel gpu, so I don't really expect any trouble
[22:52] <brainwash> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mir/Installing
[22:54] <brainwash> oh, libgoogle-glog0 gets pulled in
[22:55] <brainwash> "library that implements application-level logging."
[23:17] <ochosi> brainwash: is that a depend or a recommend?
[23:20] <Unit193> Depends: libgoogle-glog0
[23:20] <ochosi> i wonder what the heck that one does
[23:21] <brainwash> logging
[23:23] <brainwash> isn't it great to have google and the NSA (selinux) in your system?
[23:29] <ochosi> jono: any comments on that? ^
[23:30] <jono> ochosi, not really
[23:32] <ochosi> jono: anyone we could ask about what this is really about?
[23:32] <jono> ochosi, what do you want to achieve?
[23:32] <ochosi> well, i just wanna know what the library does
[23:32] <jono> I don't know, ask the maintainer
[23:33] <jono>  This library provides logging APIs based on C++-style streams and various helper macros.
[23:33] <jono> http://packages.ubuntu.com/saucy/libgoogle-glog0
[23:33] <jono> maintainers:
[23:33] <jono>     Daigo Moriwaki
[23:33] <jono>     Laszlo Boszormenyi (GCS)
[23:34] <jono> http://code.google.com/p/google-glog/
[23:34] <brainwash> it should be harmless, because everyone can take a look at the source code, right? :)
[23:35] <ochosi> jono: that's all good, i was just wondering whether you knew anything about that by any chance. no worries if not, i can inquire myself too
[23:38] <ochosi> night everyone
[23:38] <lderan> a quick look it looks like it emails the logs
[23:38] <lderan> night ochosi
[23:39] <Unit193> 0_O
[23:53] <lderan> lines 129 ~ 146 in logging.cc


[02:49] <mgalvin> hey guys
[02:53] <Burgundavia> salut
[02:53] <Burgundavia> nice patches
[02:54] <mgalvin> thnx
[03:27] <rob^> mgalvin, I haven't filed that bug yet (I was tired, it was 2:30am)
[03:28] <rob^> I'm going to now
[03:31] <mgalvin> rob^, ok, i think cprov said it would be fixed in their next release
[03:31] <rob^> any ideas when that is?
[03:32] <mgalvin> nope, he just said that they were working on it
[03:33] <rob^> ok
[03:36] <rob^> how the heck do you get your password back for the wiki, it says to use Launchpad but that doesnt work
[03:43] <mgalvin> i think you can use the lost password feature and it should give it back to you
[03:44] <mgalvin> the wiki and lanuchpad use the same l/p
[03:44] <mgalvin> same db i think
[03:44] <rob^> yeah tried that, no good
[03:46] <mgalvin> hmm
[03:47] <mgalvin> you tried it from the wiki or from launchpad
[03:48] <rob^> the wiki tells yo to use launchpad, I can log into launchpad fine with the new password, just not the wiki
[03:50] <mgalvin> hmm, then i don't know, i did it a while ago and it had worked then... possibly another problem(possible regression) to discuss on #launchpad i guess
[03:52] <rob^> hmm
[04:20] <jeffsch> jsgotangco!
[04:25] <jsgotangco> hey jeffsch how are you?
[04:26] <jeffsch> ok, i guess. long time no talk eh?
[04:26] <jsgotangco> jeffsch: i finally got to start on the styleguide on the international audience section
[04:26] <jeffsch> awesome!
[04:27] <jeffsch> what's up with the next meeting? is it still on?
[04:27] <jsgotangco> of course
[04:27] <jsgotangco> i'll update the agenda later
[04:27] <jsgotangco> sorry i was quite busy with a client lately
[04:28] <jsgotangco> (we're in the middle of an oracle implementation)
[04:29] <jeffsch> i won't be able to make it anyway. :(
[04:29] <jsgotangco> time?
[04:30] <jsgotangco> you think the 14:00UTC is a good time to make it permanent for regular meetings?
[04:30] <jeffsch> i can't make it the whole day... jury duty and then a class
[04:31] <jsgotangco> whoa jury duty
[04:31] <jsgotangco> :(
[04:32] <jeffsch> it's not so bad.
[04:38] <jsgotangco> whats class are you taking?
[04:40] <jsgotangco> jasoncohen: hello
[04:40] <jasoncohen> hi
[04:40] <jasoncohen> Burgundavia told me to come here. am i too late?
[04:41] <jasoncohen> i assumed there was some discussion or a meeting going on
[04:42] <jsgotangco> hmmm there is a meeting but its not today
[04:42] <jasoncohen> when is it?
[04:42] <jsgotangco> maybe i can help?
[04:42] <jasoncohen> Burgundavia asked me to come here. I'm not sure why., and he appears to be idle now. Perhaps it's due to the wiki pages I've put up recently
[04:43] <jsgotangco> on the 14th at 22:00UTC #ubuntu-meeting
[04:43] <jasoncohen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideMultimedia and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories
[04:43] <jsgotangco> im putting up a simple agenda later
[04:43] <jsgotangco> oohhh
[04:43] <jasoncohen> is there a problem?
[04:44] <jsgotangco> none :) they are nice wiki pages
[04:44] <jasoncohen> great
[04:45] <jsgotangco> are you interested in joining the docteam?
[04:45] <jasoncohen> i'm always open to suggestions. also, any idea how i could get a decent picture of totem. it just shows blue with all the screenshot programs i've used. i got it to work with xine.
[04:45] <jsgotangco> have you tried imagemagick?
[04:46] <jasoncohen> what kind of commitment does it entail? i like writing up wiki pages to help new users and would be willing to help- just don't want to commit to something that might be too time consuming
[04:46] <jasoncohen> i have a few things going now- working on a project with mythtv and doing a legal research/investigative internship
[04:47] <jsgotangco> well wiki gardening is one of things the team is working on
[04:47] <jsgotangco> cleaning up wiki stuff, etc.
[04:47] <jsgotangco> but not necessarily changing the content
[04:47] <jasoncohen> no, i hadn't tried imagemagick
[04:47] <jasoncohen> i actually was the one who added screenshots and some more description to the repositories howto
[04:48] <jasoncohen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
[04:48] <jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
[04:48] <jasoncohen> the desktop pic was from warty and had the wrong instructions for finding synaptic in the menu
[04:48] <jsgotangco> robitaille: hello
[04:49] <jasoncohen> jsgotangco, what else do you guys do?
[04:49] <jsgotangco> jasoncohen: we write in DocBook XML
[04:49] <robitaille> jsgotangco: hi.
[04:49] <jsgotangco> we have our own repository where we maintain our source of ubuntu documents
[04:50] <jasoncohen> cool
[04:50] <robitaille> can someone explain to me what is this page about: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalSpellingWords
[04:50] <jsgotangco> jasoncohen: our WIP stuff can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
[04:52] <jsgotangco> robitaille: weird page
[04:52] <robitaille> oh...I think I have a guess: if you do a spell check, these must be the words that you add to the local directory.
[04:52] <jsgotangco> hmmm but Robos is a guy
[04:53] <jsgotangco> oh right
[04:53] <jeffsch> robitaille: i think it's for the wiki spellchecking feature
[04:53] <jeffsch> it's where the word list is kept, iirc
[04:53] <jsgotangco>  Well What will Windows wish with work working world would writing x86 years
[04:53] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:54] <jsgotangco>  downloaded Hedgehog interested Manager official presented processor Production provided recent
[04:54] <jeffsch> hmmm... sounds like the kind of thing i would write :)
[04:55] <robitaille> jeffsch:  yes it is.  I did a spell check on my wiki page, and added "university" to it just now.   I guess there is no default dictionary, so users have to build one from scratch.
[04:55] <jeffsch> great. I can'
[04:55] <jeffsch> oops
[04:55] <jasoncohen> jsgotangco, i'm on the phone. i'll be back soon
[04:55] <jeffsch> great, i can't wait until we get words like asdfjkl in there :)
[04:55] <jsgotangco> hehe
[04:56] <robitaille> would it be worth the effort to jumpstart that page and add a long series of words to it?
[04:57] <jeffsch> i wonder if someone could just paste in the wordlist that aspell uses
[04:57] <jsgotangco> sounds fun but you might end up adminstering the dictionary itself
[04:58] <robitaille> the thing I would afraid is how slow the spell check would become if that page contains thousand of entries
[04:59] <jsgotangco> and all those words aren't even accurate to begin with
[05:01] <jeffsch> ok, i gotta run. c ya
[05:02] <jsgotangco> ill brb as well
[07:47] <froud> African Greetings
[08:06] <froud> later dudes, many meetings today :-)
[08:06] <Burgundavia> cya
[08:10] <jsgotangco> hello
[08:11] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I pointed jasoncohen at here
[08:11] <Burgundavia> because I was concerned about duplication of effort
[08:11] <Burgundavia> and mildly concerned about a few docs he had written
[08:12] <jsgotangco> i didnt read the wiki pages in-depth btw
[08:12] <Burgundavia> his new user adding repos advocated using the commandline
[08:12] <Burgundavia> which we should frown upon
[08:12] <Burgundavia> even if it harder for us
[08:13] <robitaille> but but but ...I love the cli :)
[08:13] <Burgundavia> right, my step-mother doesn't
[08:13] <Burgundavia> now sod off
[08:14] <Burgundavia> robitaille, you going to be at vlug tomorrow>
[08:14] <Burgundavia> ?
[08:14] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  probably not.  it seems my wife has plan something else for tomorrow night.  But it's not set in stone yet.   It tackled synaptic first before going to cli
[08:18] <jsgotangco> the NewUserGuideAddingRepositories page though is very cli oriented
[08:23] <robitaille> jsgotangco: to complete an earlier discussion: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/LocalSpellingWords
[08:23] <robitaille> another proof that this type of spell check in a wiki doesn't really work that well... especially in a mostly German+English wiki
[08:24] <jsgotangco> oh my god those are awesome haha
[08:25] <jsgotangco> about any code create elementary
[08:55] <jsgotangco> brb
[10:41] <jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
[10:44] <mdke> hi
[10:44] <mdke> jsgotangco, sup dude
[10:51] <mdke> gtg
[10:51] <mdke> be back later
[10:51] <Burgundavia> been talking in #gnome-hackers about docs
[10:51] <Burgundavia> good discussion
[10:51] <mdke> jsgotangco, email if its urgent
[11:02] <Burgundavia> morning Kinnison
[11:03] <Kinnison> hi burgey
[11:03] <Burgundavia> how is my favourite gay englishman?
[11:04] <Burgundavia> I haven't talked to you recently
[11:04] <Kinnison> busy as heck, but fine
[11:04] <Burgundavia> :-(
[11:05] <Kinnison> :-(
[11:05] <Kinnison> But you seem to have a new girlfriend
[11:05] <Burgundavia> same one actually
[11:05] <Kinnison> Aaah
[11:05] <Burgundavia> we have had some stormy times, but are back together again
[11:06] <Burgundavia> read my XP rants, did you?
[11:06] <Kinnison> yeah
[11:06] <Burgundavia> in good news, there will now be an Ubuntu machine at my parents house
[11:07] <Burgundavia> my step-mother is going to switch this wed.
[11:08] <Kinnison> Excellent
[11:08] <Burgundavia> with my brother jumped and my grandparents moving, that leaves only my father left
[11:11] <Burgundavia> I have to sleep, talk to you again
[11:19] <sivang> Kinnison: :-)
[11:19] <Kinnison> hi sivang
[12:46] <mdke> back
[01:44] <Njal> lo
[01:44] <mdke> hi Njal
[01:45] <Njal> hows you?
[01:45] <mdke> good thanks, you?
[01:46] <Njal> not so good
[01:46] <mdke> Njal, how come?
[01:46] <Njal> my girlfriend and i have split up
[01:47] <mdke> ah sorry to hear that
[01:47] <Njal> And that on top of the heat and my bad digestive system has resulted in a inability to actually eat without being sick
[01:48] <mdke> oh dear
[01:48] <mdke> seen a doctor?
[01:48] <Njal> yeah there's nothing wrong with me apparently
[01:50] <Njal> anyway i came here to ask if it would be possible to not send any email's to my address for about 3 weeks?
[01:50] <Njal> Im going to be on holiday and wont have access to a PC
[01:51] <mdke> you can disable mail delivery from ubuntu lists using your account preferences
[01:51] <mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[01:53] <Njal> ah good coz i hate having to spend hours deleting email's it better to just disable email's and spend the time svn uping
[01:54] <mdke> agreed
[02:01] <Njal> ah done
[02:10] <Njal> Um since im working on the gnome terminal bit of the userguide should i include trick's like how to use escape sequences etc?
[02:12] <Njal> ???
[02:12] <jjesse> quick question there is the k menu in kubuntu but in gnome is it called the footprint? or what is it called?
[02:13] <mdke> jjesse, there are three menus, one is applications, one is places, one is system
[02:13] <Njal> the applicattions menu, th place's menu or the system menu i suppose
[02:13] <jjesse> ok thanks mdke and njal
[02:15] <jjesse> working on the k menu portion in the kde userguide and wanted to compare things
[04:02] <mdke> come back!
[04:06] <mdke> i can't seem to apply rob's patches
[04:12] <jjesse> doh
[04:16] <mdke> i suck
[04:16] <jjesse> why now mdke?
[04:16] <mdke> because I never learnt how patches work properly
[04:17] <jjesse> grin me either to be honest
[04:17] <jjesse> we should have a patch class :)
[05:14] <jeffsch> mdke: ping
[05:15] <mdke> yo jeffsch
[05:15] <jeffsch> here's how I did the patch:
[05:15] <jeffsch> jeff@cloud:~/ubuntu-doc/generic/faqguide/C $ ls -l
[05:15] <jeffsch> total 344
[05:15] <jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff   1290 2005-06-30 09:21 faqguide-C.omf
[05:15] <jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff<PHONE_NUMBER>-07-10 17:22 faqguide.xml
[05:15] <jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff   9128 2005-07-10 17:21 faqguide.xml.diff
[05:15] <jeffsch> -rw-r--r--  1 jeff jeff   3825 2005-07-12 07:57 faqguide.xml.diff7
[05:15] <jeffsch> drwxr-xr-x  3 jeff jeff   4096 2005-05-31 13:30 sample
[05:16] <jeffsch> jeff@cloud:~/ubuntu-doc/generic/faqguide/C $ patch <faqguide.xml.diff7
[05:16] <jeffsch> et voila!
[05:17] <jeffsch> the magic part being "patch <faqguide.xml.diff7"
[05:17] <mdke> hmm
[05:17] <mdke> i wonder why it didn't work for me
[05:17] <mdke> that's what I did :)
[05:17] <jeffsch> what was the error?
[05:17] <mdke> jeffsch, anyhow thanks for doing it!
[05:17] <mdke> jeffsch, i can't remember i'm afraid
[05:22] <jjesse> grin thanks for the class jeffsch
[05:43] <mdke> getting some momentum up on the userguide
[08:47] <mdke> hey froud
[08:48] <mdke> that business about having to follow the section structure even in xpointers is incredibly irritating :D
[08:54] <froud> :-)
[08:55] <mdke> froud, is there no workaround?
[08:55] <froud> bring in nodes individually :-)
[08:56] <mdke> that is what I did, but I want to bring in a sect2 as a sect1
[08:56] <froud> or create an xpath that will bring it in
[09:57] <rwabel> hi
[09:57] <froud> hi
[09:57] <rwabel> I've made some changes on the documentation section in the wiki.
[09:57] <froud> k
[09:57] <rwabel> I've talked with Matt
[09:58] <mdke> hi there rwabel
[09:58] <rwabel> Matt?
[09:58] <mdke> yus
[09:58] <froud> cool I dont do wiki, ah ther ehe is
[09:58] <rwabel> ahh
[09:58] <mdke> :)
[09:58] <rwabel> I've made changes now
[09:58] <mdke> looking
[09:58] <rwabel> no documents are lost :-) I've rearranget some of them. let me know what u think
[09:59] <mdke> what changes have you made?
[09:59] <rwabel> in the documentation section
[09:59] <mdke> i can't see any differences to UserDocumentation
[09:59] <rwabel> structur
[09:59] <mdke> oh on the FrontPage?
[09:59] <rwabel> right
[10:00] <rwabel> is that not ok?
[10:00] <mdke> rwabel, its better not to edit the Frontpage, and make the amendments on the UserDocumentation page
[10:00] <rwabel> ah ok
[10:00] <rwabel> in my opinion it's already that part who needs get changed
[10:00] <mdke> which part?
[10:00] <rwabel> mh where can I ask about that
[10:01] <mdke> about what?
[10:01] <rwabel> well the problem is that the the documentation section, in my opinion, is already kinda badly
[10:01] <rwabel> that's why I've changed. And I've put the links from UserDocumentation in different sections
[10:01] <mdke> rwabel, i agree, but you should work on the documentation section, rather than the FrontPage
[10:02] <mdke> rwabel, the FrontPage pointed clearly to the UserDocumentation page, to allow people to follow that link if they are looking for documentation
[10:02] <rwabel> ok, I thought it would be ok. in the forum I've posted my idea about the FrontPage part
[10:02] <rwabel> Ok, I'll undo it...but where can I ask about to make FrontPage changes
[10:03] <mdke> rwabel, you can ask us
[10:03] <rwabel> :-)
[10:03] <mdke> we have had months of discussing the wiki structure on our list
[10:04] <rwabel> and that was the final structure?
[10:04] <mdke> Yes
[10:04] <rwabel> oh, ok what a pity :-(
[10:04] <rwabel> because I think also other users don't like it's structure
[10:05] <rwabel> I can remember when I came first there...honestly I've left after some seconds
[10:05] <mdke> rwabel, I agree that the structure of the wiki is bad, but this needs to be addressed not only on the Frontpage: this frontpage points to the documentation section, _that_ is what needs to be edited IMO
[10:05] <rwabel> well I've only looked at the documentation section.
[10:05] <mdke> you have removed the link to the UserDocumentation page, which should be the basic starting point for documentation
[10:06] <rwabel> no it should all be back again
[10:06] <mdke> i like the links you've made, but i think that they should be on the UserDocumentation page
[10:06] <mdke> what do you think?
[10:07] <rwabel> you mean my part * ["Newbie"]  - New to Ubuntu & Linux
[10:07] <rwabel>  * ["Kubuntu"]  - Here you can find all documentation concerning Kubuntu, Ubuntu with the KDE desktop!
[10:07] <rwabel>  * ["Installation"]  - Installing, updating & maintaining Ubuntu
[10:07] <rwabel>  * HardwareDrivers - Howto's to get hardware and drivers to work
[10:07] <rwabel>  * ["Software"]  - Howto's to get software to work
[10:07] <rwabel>  * [http://www.ubuntuguide.org/ Unoffical Ubtunuguide (might have some errors!)]
[10:07] <mdke> yes
[10:07] <rwabel> well why not...but all information would be in my part already
[10:07] <mdke> what users have a problem with is not the structure of the FrontPage, it is with the structure of the wiki in general
[10:07] <rwabel> I mean:
[10:08] <rwabel> #
[10:08] <rwabel> Amongst a lot of other pages in the documentation section, you can find:
[10:08] <rwabel>     *
[10:08] <rwabel>       HowToGetHelp - this page lists all the various resources available to you, to find help with your Ubuntu system! Make sure you check this page if you have a problem!
[10:08] <rwabel>     *
[10:08] <rwabel>       GettingUbuntu - How to get a copy of Ubuntu
[10:08] <rwabel>     *
[10:08] <rwabel>       Accessibility - docs related to accessibility
[10:08] <rwabel>     *
[10:08] <rwabel>       HardwareSupport and SupportedArchitectures - Check if your hardware works with Ubuntu
[10:08] <rwabel>     *
[10:08] <rwabel>       FrequentlyAskedQuestions and [WWW]  FAQ database
[10:08] <rwabel>     *
[10:08] <rwabel>       [WWW]  Glossary
[10:08] <mdke> rwabel, i can see the page, you don't have to paste it
[10:08] <rwabel> this stuff I've put in, what is in my opinion where it fits
[10:09] <mdke> basically users go to the wiki, and they see the link to UserDocumentation, they click on it, they find a mess. This is the real problem we have right now
[10:09] <rwabel> I just think, that when someone new comes to the wiki. it would be great for him to see ah something for newusers, ah information about installation
[10:09] <mdke> if you insert your material into the UserDocumentation page, i think that will be a great improvement
[10:09] <mdke> i agree with you
[10:09] <mdke> we just disagree on where to put it
[10:10] <rwabel> right :-)
[10:10] <rwabel> I just could as you told me my parts in the UserDocumentation page. And it would already be a great improvement
[10:10] <mdke> I think so
[10:10] <mdke> then we can work on making the Frontpage more clearly point to UserDocumentation
[10:11] <rwabel> ok
[10:11] <mdke> so that the UserDocumentation page provides a central point for all documentation related matters
[10:12] <rwabel> ok, give me some minutes and I'll present it...then we can look at the result again :-)
[10:12] <mdke> sure
[10:13] <mdke> i've added a sentence to make it clear that UserDocumentation is the central point for Documentation
[10:13] <rwabel> how about the result now?
[10:14] <rwabel> oh and we could also add the forum wiki delta on the UserDocumentation
[10:14] <mdke> hmm
[10:14] <mdke> you've removed all the other links!
[10:14] <rwabel> right
[10:14] <rwabel> they are all in undersections
[10:15] <mdke> all?
[10:15] <rwabel> yes
[10:15] <mdke> that's not quite true
[10:15] <rwabel> no?
[10:15] <rwabel> which one is missing?
[10:16] <mdke> the external documents are missing for example
[10:16] <mdke> rwabel, don't you think it would be better for you to add links and preserve the existing ones?
[10:16] <mdke> fast change like this can be disconcerting for other people
[10:16] <rwabel> external docuements should be there
[10:17] <rwabel> they are under newbie
[10:17] <rwabel> I agree, that it's a big change for people
[10:17] <mdke> [10:17] <mdke>  * [http://www.debian.org/doc/ Debian documentation index]
[10:17] <mdke>  * [http://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals Debian Documentation Project Users' Manuals]
[10:17] <mdke>  * [http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/ GNU/Linux Desktop Survival Guide]
[10:18] <mdke> ?
[10:18] <mdke> ah i see them
[10:18] <rwabel> for me the UserDocumentation was a mess. That's why I thought to have some categories would be great.
[10:19] <mdke> i like the structure you've given
[10:19] <rwabel> Especially as the content grows and grow it would be overloaded
[10:19] <rwabel> thanks
[10:19] <mdke> but couldn't the categories be on the UserDocumentation page as subheadings?
[10:19] <mdke> that way people can search one page, instead of having to check all the subpages
[10:20] <mdke> what do you think?
[10:20] <rwabel> you mean instead of the 5 links I've made to have them all on the UserDocumentation site?
[10:20] <mdke> yes, with headings like == Hardware/Drivers ==
[10:20] <mdke> what do you think?
[10:20] <rwabel> wouldn't it get overloaded?
[10:21] <mdke> i don't think so
[10:21] <mdke> it has a number of advantages
[10:21] <rwabel> I mean imagine having 20 howto's in software and 20 in hardware and then also the others getting bigger
[10:21] <mdke> 1. people can search for what they are looking for on one single page, rather than having to search multiple subpages
[10:21] <rwabel> that's true
[10:21] <mdke> 2. it will be easier to convince people to add links for new documents in one page, rather than having to explain a complicated structure to everyone
[10:22] <mdke> i think it would be really cool
[10:22] <rwabel> you are right, it's kinda the smarter way
[10:22] <rwabel> okay let me do that
[10:22] <mdke> :))
[10:22] <mdke> thanks for your work and energy
[10:23] <rwabel> your welcome
[10:28] <rwabel> done
[10:29] <mdke> that looks great
[10:29] <rwabel> maybe we could write some text under each heading. would make it better. let me try
[10:30] <mdke> I will do some editing on it too later, but I won't change the structure, which I like
[10:30] <mdke> i think i would change the heading levels down one, e.g. change = to == and == to [10:31] <mdke> that way each main section will be divided by a line, but the subsections won't be
[10:33] <rwabel> cool. I'll finish my part in about 10 or 15 minutes lately. Then it's time to watch some divx :-) I'll check your changes later
[10:33] <rwabel> thanks for help
[10:33] <mdke> no problem
[10:34] <mdke> rwabel, are you subscribed to the docteam mailing list?
[10:34] <mdke> i will send an email out later and other people on the "wiki team" can discuss and help out
[10:35] <rwabel> yes I've done that this afternoon
[10:42] <mdke> great
[10:43] <rwabel> finished! :-)
[10:43] <rwabel> cu
[10:45] <mdke> rwabel, great thanks, stay in touch!
[10:45] <mdke> we're always here
[10:47] <mdke> rwabel, i've made a change to the headings as I said above, let me know if you don't like it
[10:47] <rwabel> oko
[10:47] <rwabel> i'll just look at it
[10:49] <rwabel> first didn't see the difference. but it looks good
[10:50] <mdke> ok cool
[10:51] <rwabel> I think that was a good update. Next we need to import things from the forum wiki delta in the sections. is that ok?
[10:52] <mdke> rwabel, the things from the forum section should be imported first into the main section of the wiki as new pages, we can add links to such pages in UserDocumentation
[10:54] <rwabel> which new page? on the FrontPage?
[10:55] <mdke> erm
[10:56] <rwabel> for me it doesn't matter where to put software and hardware howto's, as long as there is a place :-)
[10:56] <mdke> if there is a useful howto that comes into the forum/wiki delta, the aim is to make a new page for it and make links to it in the Documentation page
[10:56] <mdke> do you follow me?
[10:57] <rwabel> no really
[10:57] <rwabel> if I've a howto
[10:57] <rwabel> I'll put it in the forum/wiki delta
[10:57] <rwabel> that's ok
[10:57] <rwabel> and then?
[10:57] <mdke> then the howto is put into a page on the main wiki
[10:58] <mdke> and we make links to it in the documentation section
[10:58] <rwabel> who put the howto in the page on the main wiki? and when?
[10:58] <rwabel> where is that page in the main wiki?
[10:58] <mdke> rwabel, let me explain
[10:58] <mdke> let's use an example
[10:59] <mdke> rwabel, for example, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/hardware/ndiswrapper
[10:59] <mdke> that page contains useful information from the forum
[10:59] <mdke> the main wiki contains a page about ndiswrapper
[10:59] <mdke> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToSetUpNdiswrapper)
[11:00] <mdke> what we can do is to take the information from the first page and include it into the second page
[11:00] <mdke> rwabel, do you follow me?
[11:00] <rwabel> yes
[11:00] <rwabel> and how do I know that there is already such apage
[11:01] <rwabel> the problem is that there is no list ?
[11:01] <mdke> you use the search facility
[11:01] <mdke> for example, I typed "ndiswrapper" into the search box
[11:01] <mdke> another example would be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/hardware/lucent and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WinModemLucent
[11:02] <mdke> in that example, I typed "lucent" into the search box
[11:02] <rwabel> ok
[11:02] <rwabel> can I ask you a mean question
[11:02] <mdke> go ahead
[11:02] <rwabel> whoever has made the WinModemLucent howto for example
[11:03] <rwabel> why didn't he put his link somewhere
[11:03] <rwabel> I mean there must be now tones of "lost" pages
[11:03] <mdke> rwabel, yes, this is the problem we face on the wiki: the main job we have to do is to find documents and make links. The search facility helps
[11:04] <rwabel> and we can put the links in our UserDocumentation
[11:04] <mdke> yes :)
[11:05] <mdke> and also it is important to give the pages the Category of "Documentation", that way they appear on the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryDocumentation
[11:05] <rwabel> when I'm doing a howto, about sth new, should I then do it in the forum wiki or directly under wiki.ubuntu.com/xxx
[11:05] <mdke> directly
[11:05] <rwabel> ah ok
[11:06] <rwabel> and if one of us gets bored, he can search for pages which aren't in the CategoryDocumentation
[11:06] <mdke> rwabel, exactly :)
[11:06] <rwabel> and who is allowed for example to move pages..an example:
[11:07] <rwabel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/software/GnomeLaunchBox
[11:07] <rwabel> should it get first approved?
[11:07] <rwabel> then I've or someone has to move it to
[11:07] <rwabel> wiki.ubuntu.com/GnomeLaunchBox
[11:07] <rwabel> and of course put the CategoryDocumentation
[11:08] <mdke> no if you think it is suitable, and there is no page which deals with that topic, you can move it. But before moving any page, it is important to check that no links will break
[11:09] <mdke> in the case of forum/software/GnomeLaunchBox, there is only one link that needs to be fixed, on the forum/software page
[11:09] <rwabel> how to check? I mean I do know my pages but what about pages from others
[11:09] <mdke> rwabel, you can easily check which pages have links, by clicking on the title of the page. try it with the UserDocumentation page
[11:10] <mdke> it should take you to: Full Text Search: "linkto:"UserDocumentation""
[11:10] <rwabel> right
[11:10] <rwabel> and what shall I then do? I mean I can't move then the page?
[11:11] <rwabel> or just changed on the other page the link
[11:11] <mdke> if the page has links, you rename/move it and then fix the links :)
[11:11] <mdke> yes
[11:11] <rwabel> cool
[11:12] <rwabel> so we shoulnd't put CategoryDocumentation tag before moving from forum wiki delta
[11:12] <rwabel> it makes life easier later :-)
[11:12] <mdke> i agree
[11:13] <rwabel> so, I've learned a lot and we've accomplished quit a bit
[11:13] <mdke> yeah :D
[11:13] <rwabel> In the next days I'll put links from howto's from the CategoryDocumentation in the UserDocumentation
[11:13] <rwabel> and also some of my howto's
[11:14] <mdke> cool
[11:14] <rwabel> oh and subcategories should also be done in software and hardware on the UserDocumentation
[11:14] <rwabel> I hope I'll find some time...next days are finally warm !
[11:14] <mdke> ;)
[11:14] <mdke> where abouts do you come from?
[11:14] <rwabel> Switzerland
[11:15] <mdke> where in particular?
[11:15] <rwabel> Bern
[11:15] <mdke> ah cool
[11:15] <rwabel> mhh I guess I should update my Personalpage :-)
[11:15] <mdke> ;)
[11:15] <rwabel> and u? where from uk?
[11:15] <mdke> yes
[11:15] <mdke> ah sorry
[11:15] <mdke> london
[11:16] <mdke> one thing I think we should consider changing on UserDocumentation is the category "Newbie". The problem is that that categorisation uses a different sort of classification from the others (installation, software, hardware).
[11:17] <rwabel> mhh explain :-)
[11:18] <rwabel> what kind of different categorisation
[11:18] <mdke> well if you make a categorisation between new users and old users, it is a different scheme of classification than between types of documentation (hardware, software etc). This leads to overlap between the sections. But let me think about it because i agree that it is important to have a section which explains what Ubuntu is and how it works
[11:19] <mdke> i'll try a quick edit now to explain what I mean
[11:24] <rwabel> btw, I don't know if you understand a bit french. But I like the french version of the newbi wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu-fr.org/nouveaux_venus
[11:24] <mdke> yeah that's nice
[11:24] <rwabel> we should also have some information about synaptic, the system etc
[11:25] <rwabel> it's astonishing how good the wiki are in french and german. I've to admit that normally the english wiki is the best one with the most information...but here :-)
[11:25] <mdke> where's the german one?
[11:26] <mdke> ok I've rearranged some sections and I've tried to make the structure a bit cleaner. Let me know what you think: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation?action=show
[11:27] <rwabel> http://www.ubuntu-de.org/portal.php
[11:27] <rwabel> I love their icons
[11:28] <mdke> ah they've moved to that already
[11:28] <rwabel> they have many good newbie howto...stuff I don't care normally...but it would be good to have them for the newbies
[11:28] <rwabel> moved to what?
[11:28] <mdke> their new website
[11:29] <mdke> its really nice
[11:29] <rwabel> they have a different wiki system I guess
[11:29] <mdke> their website uses phpBB
[11:29] <mdke> i don't know about the wiki software
[11:30] <mdke> anyway its good stuff
[11:31] <rwabel> the whole website is more userfriendly...I hope people achieve to change the wiki UI a bit
[11:32] <mdke> no the UI will not change I'm afraid
[11:32] <mdke> but we can change the content and make it easier to find material
[11:33] <mdke> don't forget that the wiki is mainly a place for people to brainstorm. It is not static or official documentation
[11:33] <rwabel> that's true...but mainly the best and only good documentation
[11:34] <rwabel> btw once I need to learn how to use pictures and icons in a webpage
[11:34] <mdke> in a wiki page or a webpage?
[11:35] <rwabel> wiki
[11:35] <rwabel> on a webpage it's easy
[11:35] <mdke> ok
[11:35] <mdke> the instructions are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnActions/AttachFile
[11:35] <mdke> you can find our Icons on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage
[11:36] <rwabel> and how can I upload a file. it's said only by administrators
[11:37] <mdke> no anyone can upload
[11:38] <mdke> you click on More Actions/Attachments
[11:38] <mdke> it is all explained in that page
[11:38] <mdke> rwabel, so what do you think of my changes to UserDocumentation?
[11:39] <mdke> rwabel, btw all icons should be uploaded to IconsPage. Screenshots can be uploaded to the page where they are needed
[11:39] <rwabel> it's much better
[11:39] <mdke> ah great
[11:40] <mdke> i still need to work on the "Other Documentation" bit
[11:40] <rwabel> yeah, these ones are tough
[11:41] <rwabel> btw if you like you can check out my blog from time to time http://ralph-wabel.net
[11:42] <rwabel> now it's time for watching some series...by head got a lot of information today :-)
[11:42] <mdke> i will bookmark your blog
[11:42] <rwabel> :-)
[11:42] <mdke> thanks a lot for your help and efforts
[11:42] <rwabel> your welcome
[11:42] <rwabel> cu
[11:42] <mdke> bye
[12:03] <mdke> ah rwabel if you get this message: when you edit wiki pages, please remember to insert a comment about your changes
[12:03] <mdke> it makes it easier to see what is going on in RecentChanges