[01:10] <voltagex> I think cpaelzer has logged off, but the reason to use an ISO over the cloud-image is that the cloud-image requires a lot more setup to e.g. set a password and set up SSH
[01:10] <voltagex> foo: are you out of memory on the machine?


[07:07] <dholbach> good morning
[07:45] <iulian> Morning dholbach.
[07:47] <dholbach> hi iulian
[08:02] <ajmitch> hi
[08:06] <iulian> ajmitch!
[08:35] <ajmitch> iulian!
[08:35] <ajmitch> (yes I know I replied late :) )
[08:36] <iulian> :)
[13:21] <Oranger> Sorry to break this very awesome silent but do all paquets contained in this page http://people.canonical.com/~platform/desktop/gnome.html must have to be updated ?
[13:21] <Oranger> *packets
[13:23] <Laney> no
[13:23] <Laney> there's a key at the bottom, but in any case each update should be considered on a case-by-case basis
[16:40] <highvoltage> ScottK: ooh, going to UDS again?
[16:40] <highvoltage> ooh and Emmet too buy the looks of things
[17:06] <achiang> any patch pilots around?
[17:07] <jtaylor> achiang: herton in -devel
[17:07] <achiang> jtaylor: cool, thanks
[17:14] <tumbleweed> highvoltage: you're going twice? i see
[17:14] <highvoltage> tumbleweed: why go once when I can go twice for just twice the price?
[17:15] <tumbleweed> do you get to share a room with yourself?
[17:15] <tumbleweed> (that could be awkward)
[17:15] <highvoltage> good question.
[17:32] <micahg> achiang: about wader, as there are API changes, but no consumer in the archive, I'm torn, but I think you should ask for an FFe: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
[17:33] <achiang> micahg: hm, yeah, there are no consumers that i'm aware of. :-/
[17:34] <achiang> micahg: i mean, anywhere, at all, let alone the archive
[17:36] <achiang> micahg: i will ask for FFe, thanks
[17:42] <jtaylor> micahg: did your ruby-vmc ping get any pongs?
[17:42] <micahg> jtaylor: sorry, I wasn't clear yesterday, when I said go for it, I meant file for the removal of ruby-vmc
[17:44] <jtaylor> I though you wanted check if people and canonical use it?
[17:44] <jtaylor> and/at
[17:45] <micahg> jtaylor: I did and was told it's ok to remove :), we'll see if anyone screams when we file for removal
[17:48] <iulian> achiang, micahg: Do you want me to reject it for now and see the outcome of the FFe?
[17:48] <jtaylor> tumbleweed: can you ack the removal in the ffe?
[17:48] <micahg> iulian: please
[17:49] <jtaylor> 1045460
[17:49] <iulian> micahg: It's gone.
[17:49] <micahg> iulian: thanks
[17:50] <micahg> jtaylor: aren't you removing both packages now?  why do you need an ACK?
[17:50] <jtaylor> the ffe was for trying to fix it
[17:50] <jtaylor> removing needs ffe's too I guessed
[17:50] <micahg> jtaylor: nope, not unless it's going to break something else
[18:34] <ScottK> highvoltage: Yes.
[21:11] <jtaylor> ScottK: I didn't know your an archive admin
[21:11] <jtaylor> is that new?
[21:12] <ScottK> jtaylor: No.  I have been for several years.  It's relatively new that non-Canonical archive admins can do removals though.
[21:13] <jtaylor> k, thanks for the removals
[21:18] <ScottK> You're welcome.
[21:22] <ajmitch> we need more non-canonical AAs
[21:25] <tumbleweed> that doesn't seem to be something that'll happen in a hurry
[21:26] <tumbleweed> we're very conservative about appointing AAs
[21:26] <ajmitch> no, but it might help with the queue length at times, and I think that AAs don't require shell access now?
[21:27] <tumbleweed> AAs don't have shell access any more
[21:27] <tumbleweed> (AFAIK)
[21:31]  * ajmitch can understand the need to be conservative, but we get told that the existing AAs have no time
[21:32] <tumbleweed> Laney: become an AA, already
[21:32] <Laney> no u
[21:33] <ajmitch> Laney: but you understand our problems, you're our only hope!
[21:33] <Laney> you both need to volunteer yourselves
[21:34] <ajmitch> they wouldn't take me :)
[21:34] <Laney> one way to find out :-(
[21:34] <tumbleweed> well, at least the upload queue issue should be much better now that SRU and release teams have access
[21:34] <ajmitch> tumbleweed: NEW isn't
[21:35] <tumbleweed> ajmitch: technically, I think the release team may be able to do it. But not without permission
[21:36] <ajmitch> as long as someone does it
[21:36] <tumbleweed> I assume we'll have follow-up UDS sessions about this all
[21:36] <Laney> less complain more volunteer
[21:36] <Laney> seriously!
[21:36] <ajmitch> Laney: I offered on IRC, no response
[21:36] <tumbleweed> Laney: I thought the policy was no !canonical (except ScottK, he's special)
[21:37] <Laney> I would be very surprised if there were such a policy
[21:37] <Laney> dear thread, you are too big
[21:38]  * ajmitch is struggling to keep up with reading the arb process thread
[21:40] <iulian> tumbleweed: We've got the button to do NEW but we need some training first before pushing it. :)
[21:43]  * Laney is mailing
[21:43] <ajmitch> uh oh
[21:48] <Laney> boom
[21:48] <xnox> Laney: well there are some actions which !canonical can't do, although that may have changed with all the lp work that landed to not require shell access on canonical servers.
[21:49] <xnox> Laney: ajmitch: according to infinity, if you are good enough they invite people to train up and become AA
[21:50] <ajmitch> xnox: that's good
[21:51] <Laney> I think the difference is pretty small now
[21:51] <Laney> definitely does not include NEW
[21:51] <xnox> ajmitch: I will pretend that I know this _not_ because I've asked to be AA.....
[21:51] <Laney> hoepfully the mail will prompt some invites to be issued
[21:51]  * xnox looks all innocent =)
[21:51] <xnox> Laney: are you in the office on Friday then?
[21:51] <Laney> well
[21:51] <Laney> find me a cheap way to get there from Nottingham and I will come
[21:52] <Laney> trains are £££
[21:52] <ajmitch> heh
[21:52] <ajmitch> Laney: cheaper for you to get there than me :)
[21:52] <iulian> Heh. That was a good one. :)
[21:52] <xnox> Laney: =))) ok.
[21:52] <Laney> I could start cycling now?
[21:53] <xnox> LOL
[21:53] <iulian> Why not?
[21:53] <iulian> You'll get here by Friday I reckon.
[21:55] <ajmitch> it does sort of exclude doing useful work in the meantime
[21:57] <xnox> Laney: you could be the new uds story "somebody cycles from nottingham to London to rebuild packages for 1 hour and cycle back home to get home by monday" =)))))
[21:57] <ajmitch> crazy people :)
[21:58] <Laney> hur de hur


[14:14] <Nemesis> does someone tried netflix-viewer? does not work for me, says: Segmentation fault (core dumped)
[14:55] <ogra> Nemesis, i use electronplayer here for netflix and amazon, works quite well
[15:00] <Nemesis> ogra:  yeah I just found it, faced small issue(i type my password and says it is wrong, after few times i opened my browser and copy exact same password and paste it and worked, but when i wrote it manually says it is wrong).
[15:00] <Nemesis> netflix looks good
[15:01] <Nemesis> if there is a way to go right into netflix instead of picking it everytime when i start the player will be perfect


[02:36] <liuxg> I am now using snapcraft to build my project. I find that if I change my source codes, it does not pull automatically. I can pull it, but it seems that it does not automatically build it upon the dependency. how to deal with this?
[02:40] <elopio> liuxg: sounds like this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapcraft/+bug/1477904
[02:42] <liuxg> elopio, yes, I need to pull the code every time, it wastes time
[02:43] <liuxg> elopio, in fact, I want to compile  local source codes instead of pulling the code every time from the github, which takes a lot of time. sometimes, bzr projects are huge as well. I have to use snapcraft clean every time for a little change.
[02:46] <elopio> liuxg: yup, we have to fix that. sergiusens is working on sources, please leave your comments on the bug so he takes into account your use case.
[02:48] <sergiusens> liuxg, you are talking specifically about the go plugin, right?
[02:52] <sergiusens> liuxg, you are talking specifically about the go plugin, right?
[03:02] <sergiusens> elopio, https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/goget-ubuntu-touch/1473333/+merge/277412
[03:03] <elopio> sergiusens: omw, things are happening :)
[03:03] <elopio> let me give it a try.
[03:04] <Bluefoxicy> okay why is there an amd64+generic and amd64-generic?
[03:04] <Bluefoxicy> http://releases.ubuntu.com/15.04/
[03:05] <elopio> sergiusens: you have a mess with the license headers in that project :)
[03:08] <sergiusens> elopio, you don't say? I copied this from go-dbus I think
[03:35] <Bluefoxicy> aw crud.
[03:35] <Bluefoxicy> there are no mirrors with snappy
[03:35] <Bluefoxicy> Hence it takes 1 hour to download
[03:36] <Bluefoxicy> oh wait it's 15.04 not 15.10
[03:58] <Bluefoxicy> and apt does not work
[03:58] <Bluefoxicy> neither does dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration
[06:51] <liuxg> I have a executable binary called fswebcam (/usr/bin/fswebcam) in a snappy package, I want to use it to capture a picture as described in the https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/build-apps/your-first-snap/. I want to use golang to invoke it to capture a picture. How can I do it? currently, I am using the way at https://github.com/liu-xiao-guo/webcam-http/blob/master/api.go, is there anything wrong with it? thanks
[08:17] <fgimenez> good morning
[08:23] <mvo> hey fgimenez, good morning
[08:24] <fgimenez> hi mvo, how's the release going?
[08:27] <mvo> fgimenez: I think we are good, I was reading trello/tg/mail so far only but nothing that looks like a blocker so I will go ahead and do the promotion next
[08:30] <fgimenez> mvo, great! :) let me know if i can be of any help
[10:01] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Friday, and happy Kindness Day! 😃
[11:55] <mvo> fgimenez: if you have a moment, it would be great if you could do some smoke testing with the new webdm http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/tmp/webdm_0.10_all.snap
[11:56] <fgimenez> mvo, sure, on it
[12:21] <fgimenez> mvo, i'm getting this on kvm http://paste.ubuntu.com/13247033/, both rolling/edge and 1504/alpha, is it built for armhf?
[12:55] <mvo> fgimenez: checking, sorry, I just had build it before leaving for lunch
[13:43] <mvo> fgimenez: I had a unclean build env that caused this package to be broken, I uploaded a new version now that should be better.
[13:44] <fgimenez> mvo, ok thanks, i'll try it now
[13:45] <mvo> fgimenez: ups, sorry
[13:45] <mvo> fgimenez: the url is not quite correct, one sec
[13:47] <mvo> fgimenez: its actually now http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/tmp/webdm_0.10_multi.snap
[13:59] <fgimenez> mvo, ok thanks
[13:59] <mvo> fgimenez: fwiw, I did a quick test install on my bbb and it was fine
[15:05] <fgimenez> mvo all seems to be working fine except for the remove buttons, with any installed snap/framework, when i try to remove i get "ERROR: snappy package not found"
[15:06] <fgimenez> mvo, this is the body of the response from the server http://paste.ubuntu.com/13247844/, with a 500 error code
[15:09] <fgimenez> the status "uninstalled" is strange, i get this from the list of snaps http://paste.ubuntu.com/13247865/
[15:11] <sergiusens> elopio, https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/goget-ubuntu-touch/1473333/+merge/277412
[15:12] <sergiusens> I fixed all your comments
[15:14] <mvo> fgimenez: hm, interessting. so any removal fails right now. let me try
[15:17] <elopio> sergiusens: needs fixing.
[15:18] <sergiusens> elopio, nah
[15:18] <sergiusens> :-)
[15:19] <elopio> just drop the test. It's friday and QA knows it.
[15:19] <sergiusens> elopio, done ;-)
[15:20] <elopio> (that's a joke, of course. Don't drop the test :)
[15:20] <sergiusens> elopio, too late
[15:20] <sergiusens> elopio, just kidding ;-)
[15:20] <sergiusens> elopio, should be fine now
[15:22] <elopio> sergiusens: +1.
[15:29] <mvo> fgimenez: I can reproduce the error you see
[15:51] <mvo> sergiusens, Chipaca: if someone could help with  https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/webdm/new-snappy/+merge/277433 that would be cool, hopefully something simple but with that branch fgimenez and I get "Error: snappy package not found" when trying to remove any snap. this seems to be workng ok with 0.9.4
[15:52] <fgimenez> mvo, sergiusens, Chipaca the server returns this http://paste.ubuntu.com/13247844/ with a 500
[15:54] <kyrofa> jdstrand, found another bug in snappy-debug. Is there a place to file bugs/submit MPs?
[16:01] <jdstrand> kyrofa: https://code.launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/snappy-hub/snappy-debug
[16:01] <jdstrand> but just against the snappy project, but an MP is good enough for me
[16:03] <kyrofa> jdstrand, on its way!
[16:03] <kyrofa> ... right after standup
[16:15] <Chipaca> mvo: is it bad if I jot that down as a "do over the weekend" task?
[16:15] <Chipaca> mvo: or is this a blocker?
[16:17] <mvo> Chipaca: never
[16:17] <mvo> Chipaca: no, no not at all
[16:18] <longsleep> Chipaca: Do you have a minute, i might have found an issue with the firstboot service boot order change
[16:18] <mvo> Chipaca: I will see what I can do to control the damage, but only the "edge" channel of webdm is affected
[16:18] <mvo> Chipaca: and once the release is out I should have some cycles again
[16:19] <Chipaca> longsleep: certainly sir
[16:20] <longsleep> Chipaca: problem is that now some snap provided services can run before firstboot
[16:20] <longsleep> Chipaca: To be exact, the services which have no external networking, start on ubuntu-snappy.frameworks.target
[16:21] <sergiusens> Chipaca, mvo fgimenez maybe we can just start using the rest api for removal, DONE ;-)
[16:22] <sergiusens> mvo, oh, this is very specific to webdm and its build against new snappy APIs
[16:23] <Chipaca> longsleep: augh
[16:25] <longsleep> Chipaca: so i think, the snappy services need to wait on firstboot or something, not sure what happens when the frameworks target is run after firstboot instead of after run-hooks
[16:25] <mvo> sergiusens: heh, indeed, maybe I should venture a bit into JS land
[16:26] <longsleep> Chipaca: a crude workaround could be to add a fake external port to the snap which has config applied by firstboot, that makes such snaps to start after snappy-wait4network.service
[16:26] <Chipaca> it's starting to feel like a game of whack-a-mole
[16:26] <Chipaca> but without the cute eep sounds
[16:27] <Chipaca> i need to sit down with graphviz and some patience
[16:27] <Chipaca> or, well, somebody does :)
[16:29] <longsleep> Chipaca: i am adding the ugly details to bug 1511435
[16:32] <kyrofa> jdstrand, https://code.launchpad.net/~kyrofa/snappy-hub/snappy-debug_escape_regex_strings/+merge/277463
[16:37] <jerryG> any1 know about opengl on snappy?
[16:39] <jdstrand> mvo: https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy/pull/55#issuecomment-156482348
[16:39] <jdstrand> kyrofa: thanks!
[16:41] <mvo> thanks jdstrand
[16:41] <jdstrand> mvo: thank you :)
[16:41]  * jdstrand hugs mvo
[16:41]  * mvo hugs jdstrand
[16:42] <longsleep> sweet
[16:42] <jerryG> status of opengl support on snappy?
[16:42] <davmor2> jdstrand, mvo: man get a room alerady
[16:42]  * Chipaca hugs mvo and jdstrand
[16:42] <Chipaca> let's land that sucker
[16:42]  * mvo hugs Chipaca and davmor2
[16:42] <Chipaca> davmor2: you're just jealous of our love
[16:43] <longsleep> feel the love in snappy channel
[16:43]  * jdstrand hugs Chipaca, davmor2, mvo (again) and longsleep :)
[16:43] <Chipaca> jerryG: 無
[16:44] <davmor2> okay okay I feel the love, /me hugs everyone
[16:45] <jerryG> Chipaca: 为什么
[16:45] <jerryG> Chipaca: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2015-October/001114.html
[16:47] <jerryG> Chipaca: :{
[16:49] <Chipaca> jerryG: you asked about “opengl support”. I can't even answer “no” to that question, because the question itself seems to assume things that aren't quite right
[16:49] <Chipaca> jerryG: hence, mu
[16:50] <Chipaca> jerryG: intel architecture snappy ships with the kernel-side gpu drivers, that are one part of what's needed for supporting opengl
[16:51] <Chipaca> jerryG: there is a mir snap, that i think uses those drivers, but would you consider that “opengl support”?
[16:51] <Chipaca> jerryG: there is no X in snappy, for example
[16:51] <Chipaca> jerryG: not today; possibly never? I don't know
[16:52] <jerryG> Chipaca: can i use sdl file with snappy ?
[16:52] <Chipaca> jerryG: what's a sdl file?
[16:56] <richmb> hello?
[16:58] <Chipaca> richmb: o/
[16:58] <zyga> hey
[16:59] <richmb> I had some questions about the apt-get(non-snappy) version of ubuntu core
[17:00] <richmb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Core
[17:00] <richmb> this wiki page hasn't been updated in a while, but the releases seem upto date
[17:01] <richmb> is this something that will be continued to be supported?
[17:01] <Chipaca> no idea; i work on snappy itself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[17:02] <richmb> we ran into some troubles trying to port snappy, but the ubuntu core rootfs was easy to bring up.
[17:04] <zyga> richmb: what are you porting to??
[17:04] <zyga> s/\?\?/?/
[17:05] <richmb> an Altera Cyclone V arm Soc
[17:05] <richmb> https://support.criticallink.com/redmine/projects/mityarm-5cs/wiki
[17:06] <liuxg> when I am trying to run a snappy command, it complains "another snappy is running, try again later". what is the reason for this? it happened a few times to me.
[17:08] <ogra_> richmb, the ubuntu-core tarball has nothing to do with snappy, it is "just enough OS to run apt in a chroot" and is used for buildds and the like ... a snappy ubuntu-core rootfs has massively different content
[17:08] <ogra_> snappy image currently come fron system-image.ubuntu.com
[17:08] <ogra_> *images
[17:09] <richmb> I understand that.  I wanted to know if the ubuntu-core tarballs would be available for future ubuntu versions.  As the wiki page hasn't been updated in a while.
[17:10] <ogra_> richmb, you have to ask infinity in #ubuntu-devel ... it was never an official product i think
[17:12] <Chipaca> liuxg: every so often a snappy update runs automatically
[17:12] <ogra_> (RaspberryPi2)ubuntu@localhost:~$ snappy list
[17:12] <ogra_> Name        Date       Version Developer
[17:12] <ogra_> ubuntu-core 2015-11-13 3       ubuntu
[17:12] <ogra_> webdm       2015-11-13 0.9.4   canonical
[17:12] <ogra_> pi2         2015-11-13 0.16    canonical
[17:12] <ogra_> mvo, ^^^ looks all fine
[17:12] <liuxg> Chipaca, i really do not want it to update. how can I stop it?
[17:13] <Chipaca> liuxg: from memory: echo 'config: {ubuntu-core: {autoupdate: false}}' | sudo snappy config ubuntu-core - | grep auto
[17:13] <richmb> thanks orga
[17:13] <Chipaca> liuxg: although that might be autopilot instead of autoupdate, depending on what snappy you're running
[17:13] <SaMnCo-desktop> getting the exact same situation, it seems the auto update features are active by default
[17:14] <Chipaca> used to be called autopilot, becase we like confusing people ;-)
[17:14] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: yes
[17:14] <SaMnCo-desktop> Chipaca-  this is not cool. Back to Windows days where the system would reboot in the middle of an important task?
[17:14] <liuxg> Chipaca, it seems it is an update. at one time, it prompted me there would be reboot sth like that.
[17:15] <Chipaca> liuxg: yep
[17:15] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy/blob/master/docs/autoupdate.md
[17:15] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: except, as i said, it might be called autopilot instead of autoupdate, depending on what you're running
[17:16] <SaMnCo-desktop> Chipaca-  yeah, I have autopilot on my BBBs and Rpi2
[17:16] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: and it's exactly like windows, except for everything
[17:16] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: :-)
[17:16] <SaMnCo-desktop> thx for the link, useful. Still, I would not have a behavior that forces the reboot of the system being active by default
[17:16] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: i mean, it's an option you can turn off, and it prints out how to abort the reboot if you're logged in
[17:17] <jerryG> Chipaca: sdl file is for opengl.  How do i make an image with intel opengl graphics drivers?
[17:17] <SaMnCo-desktop> What if it's my drone in the sky?
[17:17] <ogra_> SaMnCo-desktop, then turn it off :)
[17:17] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: if you're putting the default image on a drone in the sky, you're going to have a bad time
[17:17] <SaMnCo-desktop> ogra_-  I understand I can turn it off, I am just saying, something that reboots a device should not be active by default
[17:18] <Chipaca> sigh
[17:18] <liuxg> Chipaca, it will be finished once it is updated, right?
[17:18] <SaMnCo-desktop> but well, we don't have to agree on everything ;)
[17:18] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: yes, you're saying that. I disagree, because of several things
[17:18] <ogra_> SaMnCo-desktop, if you produce a drone you likely use your own oem snap and will define what config options are on in it
[17:18] <mvo> ogra_: \o/
[17:19] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: the biggest is that it's not really on by default; it's on if and only if the gadget snap you used to build the image sets it
[17:19] <mvo> ogra_: mail is out
[17:19] <ogra_> mvo, yay
[17:19] <SaMnCo-desktop> Chipaca-  so that means the images on the website have that active by default
[17:19] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: the default image has it on, because the default image is for developers and clouds, where you most likely want to keep things up to date (and if you don't, you know you don't, and you disable it)
[17:19] <SaMnCo-desktop> I just downloaded them this morning
[17:20] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: and it's already on a drone in the sky? wow you're fast
[17:20] <SaMnCo-desktop> :D
[17:20] <SaMnCo-desktop> It's just I have 7 devices, downloading tons of stuff, and I didn't know about this thing, and it just means I have to run my scripts all over again
[17:21] <SaMnCo-desktop> and it's slowww to run Docker / LXD stuff on BBBs...
[17:21] <ogra_> err
[17:21] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: why does an update mean you need to run your scripts again?
[17:21] <ogra_> yes :)
[17:21] <SaMnCo-desktop> Chipaca-  because it downloads stuff
[17:21] <ogra_> everythin is slow on a BBB
[17:22] <ogra_> except actual embedded stuff ...
[17:22] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: but the download doesn't vanish on update
[17:22] <SaMnCo-desktop> Chipaca-  it does on reboot though
[17:22] <SaMnCo-desktop> anyway
[17:22] <SaMnCo-desktop> that what scripts are for: automate stuff
[17:23] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: why does the download vanish on reboot?
[17:24] <SaMnCo-desktop> Chipaca-  I'm not following you.  The update killed Docker
[17:24] <SaMnCo-desktop> as a consequence, both actions went down
[17:24] <SaMnCo-desktop> and now the system is about to reboot. I can catch it (hopefully) but that means the system is not functional anymore
[17:24] <SaMnCo-desktop> and I'll have to restart the commands
[17:25] <SaMnCo-desktop> to start Docker and pull the images I want
[17:25] <Chipaca> ah, the download was interrupted by the reboot, and it doesn't know to resume, now i got it
[17:25] <Chipaca> i thought the download had finished
[17:25] <SaMnCo-desktop> yeah, it's a trivial bash script
[17:25] <SaMnCo-desktop> started remotely
[17:26] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: well, a few things. one is that if you're on stable, updates are infrequent (not more than once a week, and that's pushing it)
[17:26] <ogra_> well, supposedly once a month actually
[17:26] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: the other is that you can disable it, but if you do it's on you to run update every so often to make sure you're current
[17:26] <ogra_> we just had a few busy weeks
[17:26] <Chipaca> yeah
[17:27] <Chipaca> i said once a week because i think if we try to do more often than that mvo will undergo a phase change
[17:27] <Chipaca> not sure if he'll melt or just evaporate
[17:27] <Chipaca> but it won't be pretty
[17:27] <SaMnCo-desktop> ok
[17:28] <SaMnCo-desktop> the good side is that I now have a much more clever install / cluster management script for the next batch :)
[17:28] <Chipaca> :)
[17:28] <SaMnCo-desktop> if it had happened while I was afk, I would just have found things broken
[17:28] <SaMnCo-desktop> now I know how to fix it :)
[17:28] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: also, if you stop the reboot, the system isn't broken or inconsistent
[17:28] <ogra_> you should just put it in a snap
[17:28] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: the update is separate
[17:29] <SaMnCo-desktop> ogra_-  yep, that's the plan
[17:29] <Chipaca> SaMnCo-desktop: *also* also, note it updates everything, but only system updates cause the reboot
[17:29] <SaMnCo-desktop> but right now it's for my talk at DockerCon, I don't have a lot of time
[17:29] <Chipaca> ok, i'll stop chatting to you and let you get back to cussing the system into shape then
[17:30]  * Chipaca goes for some more tea
[17:30] <SaMnCo-desktop> :D have a good one
[17:33] <longsleep> Reading the changes in the latest 15.04 stable release, what is actually the snappy REST API and how do i accesss it?
[17:33] <longsleep> -s
[18:51] <sergiusens> elopio, https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/pull/97
[19:30] <richmb> Are there any training or classes on snappy that could help with porting.
[19:35] <tedg> richmb: We've done a few Snappy clinics that might help: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-qBHd6_LXWYm8qttcXaosAIzejTa5IPj
[19:51] <Chipaca> longsleep: wrt the REST API, hold on
[19:52] <Chipaca> longsleep: there's a pull request with docs
[19:52] <Chipaca> longsleep: but it is going to be revamped for 16.04
[19:53] <Chipaca> longsleep: i'll get you the link of my internet holds up
[19:54] <Chipaca> longsleep: https://github.com/chipaca/snappy/blob/rest-doc/docs/rest.md
[19:55] <Chipaca> longsleep: i'll expect to get to merging that over the weekend, or early next week
[19:56] <Chipaca> longsleep: in particular, the details of how to handle licensed snaps is going to be different real soon now
[21:58] <bago> hi all
[21:59] <frecel> bago: hey
[21:59] <frecel> lool: ping
[22:00] <bago> i have an android smart tv box and was wondering if it's ok to use the raspberry pi2 sd card ubuntu on it?
[22:00] <bago> or the beaglebone 1
[22:01] <bago> it is armv7 (cortex-a5)
[22:01] <frecel> I see no reason why that wouldn't work since it's just another external input
[22:02] <frecel> practically there is no difference between connecting a ps4 and a pi to your tv
[22:04] <bago> so the snappy armhf rpi2 img using win32diskimager should boot from sd?
[22:07] <frecel> bago: oh you just want to plug the sdcard to your tv
[22:07] <frecel> without the rasperry pi itself?
[22:08] <bago> no i want to run a persistent ubuntu on sd card but leave my android intact
[22:08] <bago> i'm not sure what board my tv box has
[22:08] <bago> it seems to be an odroid c1 with a tuner card
[22:10] <bago> would it help if i linked the url to the box?
[22:12] <bago> i basically want to run ubuntu on this http://www.smartvboxs.com/products/Amlogic-S805-Quad-core-1G-8G-Mali-450GPU-Android-4.4-VIGICA-C100S.html#.VkZgNHbhCJA
[22:13] <bago> kodibuntu ideally but ubuntu would be a good start
[22:17] <bago> is it possible to brick my device by trying?
[22:25] <tedg> Yes, and it probably won't work.
[22:25] <tedg> You really need to support the specific board when it comes to ARM stuff.
[22:25] <tedg> It's not like x86 where the CPU and BIOS are rather standardized.
[22:26] <bago> right so i'd have to port it to a new board?
[22:27] <tedg> Correct, what ever CPU/configuration/etc that box is using.
[22:28] <bago> how big would that be for an amateur?
[22:28] <tedg> Reasonably large, but everyone needs to start somewhere. :-)
[22:28] <bago> with a windows pc :)
[22:29] <tedg> But if there's no CynogenMod port or ASOP tree, it'll be nearly impossible.
[22:29] <bago> how would i find out if there is?
[22:29] <tedg> Google :-)
[22:31] <bago> i'm not really sure what board i'd google though tbh :)
[22:35] <bago> i have had openelec boot from sd card so i assume it must be possible, it had no wifi but i think the driver is available it's just it was compiled on a similar device
[22:53] <lool> frecel: pong
[22:54] <frecel> lool: there are rumors going around that you were working on getting snappy to run on an intel edison
[22:54] <frecel> did you have any succes with that?
[22:55] <lool> frecel: yes and no; it's on the "nice to complete someday" list, but I'm happy to give you pointers if you'd like to resurrect
[22:57] <frecel> I bought my edison to try building an ubuntu smartwatch so I would appreciate any help
[22:58] <lool> frecel: so basically the top thing that was missing was initrd loading and someway to repartition the device safely; with latest released image and the new flashing tool, it's all doable, but I didn't have time to assemble an image
[23:01] <frecel> lool: so at it's current state it just get's stuck in a reboot loop?
[23:11] <lool> frecel: there is no current image for edison
[23:19] <frecel> lool: did you document your work so far in any way? I have not done anything like this before so I'm not even entirely sure where to start to be honest
[23:21] <lool> frecel: so the latest bootloader also added support for the external SD card
[23:21] <lool> frecel: I'd start by creating an x86 SD card image and starting snappy manually with intel's kernel + snappy initrd + snappy rootfs from the u-boot prompt
[23:32] <Chipaca> lool: the edison uses uboot?
[23:32] <lool> Chipaca: yes


[01:09] <Degru> would anyone like help installing screensavers in kubuntu?
[01:09] <Degru> run "sudo apt-get install xscreensaver* kscreensaver*"
[01:10] <Degru> then a bunch of screensavers should appear in the menu under System Settings>Display and Monitor>Screensavers
[02:39] <Linuxfreak78> Hello all.  I'm hoping someone can offer a quick solution.  When I open a music file, I would like for Amarok to automatically begin playing the audio.  Unfortunately I have yet to find the option to do so.  Any help (including information about a better place to ask) would be greatly appreciated!  I am on KDE 4.10
[02:54] <andrea___> pessoal, por favor, instalei o ubuntu 13.04
[02:54] <andrea___> sendo que a minha wireless da marca atheros não aparece aquele icone para conectar às redes wi-fi disponíveis
[02:55] <andrea___> o que posso fazer para melhorar essa configuração ,pois por causa disso não consigo conectar a nenhuma rede wi-fi.
[02:56] <andrea___> já instalei outras versões do kubuntu, mas caí no mesmo problema.
[02:58] <andrea___> 04:00.0 Network controller: Atheros Communications Inc. AR9285 Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01) <- essa é minha placa wireless
[03:14] <andrea___> hey guys, I have some problem. I'm using ubuntu 12.10 and doesn't appers the networking manager icon on taskbar. It means I can't connect to any wireless connection.  My lspci is: 04:00.0 Network controller: Atheros Communications Inc. AR9285 Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01) <- essa é minha placa wireless
[03:45] <goodtime> i just would stick to 12.04LTS and get the updates for like the next 2 years and then get the next LTS ye to come
[03:45] <goodtime> yet*
[04:12] <murthy> hello everyone
[04:13] <murthy> apachelogger: did you merge the tomahawk debian/copyright changes?
[05:15] <bolapara> hi all.  how do i adjust the permissions that kde automounts usb disks as?  they are not writable by default
[05:17] <frogonwheels_> bolapara: reallY/ weird.
[05:17] <frogonwheels_> ?
[05:17] <bolapara> frogonwheels_:  may be my fault, installed kde 4.10 from repos on my 12.10
[05:17] <frogonwheels_> bolapara: must be somehow identifying them as cdroms?
[05:18] <bolapara> frogonwheels_: no it seems to think thye are usb devices
[05:18] <bolapara> what does the automoutning in kubuntu?
[06:12] <dangerousice> is there a way to color nano when using it in zsh?
[06:26] <lacrosse1991> hello, would anyone know how to resolve the following problem?
[06:26] <lacrosse1991> checking for Qt... configure: error: Qt (>= Qt 3.2) (headers and libraries) not found. Please check your installation!
[06:27] <lacrosse1991> im running kubuntu 12.10
[06:29] <lacrosse1991> have been trying for the past 2 hrs to get a theme installed for kwin, but the QT warning is preventing the compilation of pretty much everything
[06:59] <phiscribe> lacrosse1991, ive not booted into kubuntu in awhile, but try installing the packages that have the missing headers
[07:41] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:42] <Smurphy> Jo.... Good morning indeed... Sunny and no wind ... even if freezing cold :}
[07:43] <lordievader> Sunny indedd, for a change. Also a bit warmer than a few days ago :)
[07:44] <Smurphy> It's supposed to be around 8C Warm here today, and in 2 days, 14C :}
[07:45] <lordievader> Going in the right direction, I'd say.
[07:49] <Smurphy> ack :)
[10:37] <ovidiu-florin> hello world :D
[10:39] <Graf_Westerholt> hello ovidiu-florin
[10:39] <ovidiu-florin> has anybody experienced desktop freeze? I mean I can click anywhere, and focus on different windows, but I cannot focus inside windows. This happened all of the sudden. Anywhere I click inside a window I get the moving cursor and it moves the window, but no focus on the window elements
[10:40] <Graf_Westerholt> ovidiu-florin, hit your alt-key ;)
[10:40] <ovidiu-florin> what was that?
[10:40] <ovidiu-florin> what kind of saucery is this?
[10:41] <Graf_Westerholt> While pressing alt, you can move Windows with a click everywhere in the window. Or resize it.
[10:41] <ovidiu-florin> it worked, thank's Graf_Westerholt
[10:41] <Graf_Westerholt> was an honor, ovidiu-florin.
[10:41] <ovidiu-florin> and, I'm guessing it got stuck somehow
[10:41] <ovidiu-florin> this is magic I tell you
[10:42] <Graf_Westerholt> Live is magic. ;)
[10:42] <Graf_Westerholt> But now you know how to deal with it. ;)
[10:42] <ovidiu-florin> yeah
[10:42] <ovidiu-florin> thank's
[10:42] <Graf_Westerholt> Press alt and right mouse to resize windows.
[11:21] <dmatt> Hi, which config file stores system language setting?
[12:10] <dschulz> dmatt: ~/.kde/share/config/startupconfig
[12:18] <dmatt> dschulz: thanks, I found that one, but it does not solve my problem unfortunately
[12:20] <dschulz> ok. What's the problem you're having?
[12:22] <dmatt> raring development does not have language-selector-kde and I am lost as wehere to change system language - ~/.kde/share/config/startupconfig does not set system language (for qt applications)
[12:24] <dmatt> there is qt based bug in slovak system locale https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-28843 but I cannot set something different (there is no system languages module in KCM Locale)
[12:25] <dmatt> therefore I am looking for config file change
[12:38] <Torch> dmatt: look into the LANG environment variable
[12:46] <phiscribe> trying to upgrade with apt-get upgrade and i am getting this error grub-probe: error: unknown filesystem.  followed by found windows recover  found windows 7 loader then done.  after DONE it just hangs.  sits there and never completes.  if i kill it  it leave apt in a funky state.  suggestions?
[12:47] <phiscribe> this is during the Generating Grub phase.
[12:59] <phiscribe> man now i cant even open konsole ugg
[13:08] <phiscribe> well i unplugged my usb drives and tried dpkg from recovery seems to have helped.  the one usb drive was new
[13:09] <dmatt> Torch: thanks, i solved it with editing /etc/default/locale
[13:40] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[14:56] <zoie> hello, how can i save a file in plain ascii in kate?
[15:09] <yofel> zoie: tools->Encoding. There choose an ISO 8859 one
[15:11] <mandoguit> or select the format on a per file basis by using "save as"
[15:12] <zoie> ok
[15:12] <zoie> but which 8859 is ascii? they're all ascii?
[15:13] <yofel> they all have the same first 128 characters (= US-ASCII)
[15:14] <zoie> i need to send a cv in plain ascii, so which one should i use in order to ensure that i'm not using forbidden characters?
[15:18] <mandoguit> zole:  according to the following article, your/your receivers locale plays a large part in determining that aspect   http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Plain_Text_versus_Locale      something I have never known or read about before  :P
[15:19] <yofel> zoie: the ISO 8859 differ in the last 128 characters which are regional specific. Usually you'll want to use the one that the person you has to read it uses.
[15:20] <yofel> except you're writing plain us english without any language specific special characters, then it doesn't matter which one you choose
[15:23] <zoie> yofel: hm ok, so there's no encoding in kate with only the first 128 characters?
[15:25] <yofel> not that I know of. Nobody uses ASCII these days. If anything it would be Latin-1 (ISO 8859-1) as english default which is western europe encoding
[16:07] <ugur> sa
[17:57] <esing> Hi
[17:59] <esing> I want to migrate from archlinux (kde) to kubuntu; will my configuration be saved if I use my arch /home partition?
[17:59] <esing> +for my applications
[18:42] <avihay> esing: should be, you might need to copy, move or link ~/.kde4 to ~/.kde
[20:35] <HmpfCBR> Hi, trying to upgrade to calligra 2.6.1 using ppa:kubuntu-ppa/backports in quantal, fails since calligra*-data packages are only available in 2.6.0. Anything known about this?
[20:50] <yofel> HmpfCBR: looking
[20:51] <yofel> HmpfCBR: the update got stuck in the queue, will be resolved in ~2h
[20:52] <HmpfCBR> yofel: ok, thx. :)
[21:09] <daniel> lol
[21:09] <esing> hey
[21:09] <esing> Why is the google search "gg:" in kubuntu's krunner not working; is it using another syntax?
[21:10] <Danmcg92> bud bud
[21:14] <Danmcg92> Is this where I come to get help and support?
[21:57] <Fuzzles> i upgraded to kde 4.10 but when i add a widget the menu is really white?
[22:08] <Fuzzles> anyone using kde 4.10?


[00:02] <daftykins> one of my mates had one of the new £5 notes the other night, i'd not seen one yet :>
[00:02] <daftykins> takes a while for mainlander money to make it to the rock, since we have our own of course
[00:10] <zmoylan-pi> when the euro came in i had the complete set of notes by the end of first day... benefits of living in dublin.  but i got my first non irish euro coins the next day.  german it was...
[00:11] <daftykins> ah har!
[00:11] <daftykins> i'd only had a single £2 coin in my whole life before going to Uni and getting them all the time :>
[00:15] <zmoylan-pi> universities run on weird denominations.  atms around tcd here in dublin used to dispense £1 notes to starving students back in the day iirc
[00:16] <daftykins> :D i love my Guernsey £1 notes
[01:55] <chatter> hey guys
[01:55] <chatter> allah is doing
[01:55] <chatter> sun is not doing allah is doing
[01:55] <chatter> to accept islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except allah and muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
[01:56]  * zmoylan-pi lights candals by my tux altar and sacrifices microsoft licence agreements to linux
[01:58] <penguin42> possibly the best way to keep warm
[01:59] <zmoylan-pi> you learn the hard way to peel them off the laptops first
[01:59] <penguin42> yeh otherwise the battery-cells go BOOM
[02:08] <zmoylan-pi> oh crikey, now carrie fishers mom dies... :-/
[08:01] <knightwi1e> Good morning everyone
[09:53] <brobostigon> morning boy and girls.
[10:50] <knightwise> morning peeps
[10:55] <brobostigon> orning knightwise, how was the cinema?
[12:47] <diddledan> frak
[12:47] <diddledan> debbie reynolds, too
[13:02] <zmoylan-pi> death isn't putting the feet up for last few days of 2016
[13:02] <penguin42> quotas to meet and everything
[13:03] <zmoylan-pi> getting in before the rush trump causes next year...
[13:24] <diddledan> it's the rapture
[13:25] <zmoylan-pi> brought to you by a sleazy business man on the cheap for $29.99, order now, spaces are limited...
[14:49] <knightwise> hey brobostigon Movie was great
[14:49] <knightwise> crowd smelled (and behaved) like the inside of the thunderdome in mad max 3
[14:50] <zmoylan-pi> hope you brought your whistle :-)
[14:51] <knightwise> zmoylan-pi: it was insane.  :-P https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10542519
[20:52] <penguin42> haha
[20:53] <diddledan> haha
[20:53] <diddledan> well done Bobby T.
[20:54] <zmoylan-pi> he has a company car already... http://hackaday.com/2014/04/04/sql-injection-fools-speed-traps-and-clears-your-record/ :-P
[20:54] <penguin42> the registrant seems to be an OSCP certified pen tester
[21:02] <SebthreeBQM10HD> uu
[21:10] <diddledan> ee
[21:10] <SebthreeBQM10HD> dd
[21:10] <diddledan> no, you're wrong
[21:10] <SebthreeBQM10HD> pp
[21:10] <diddledan> it's uu ee uu aa aa, ting tang walla walla bing bang
[21:11] <SebthreeBQM10HD> is it?
[21:11] <diddledan> yes
[21:11] <SebthreeBQM10HD> or just random letters :d


[06:42] <dupondje> Whats the easiest way to replace a patch with quilt ?
[06:42] <dupondje> If I replace the file, and then do 'quilt refresh' it gets overwritten again?
[06:44] <jtaylor> change it in the series file
[06:47] <dupondje> filename etc is the same, its just an adjusted patch
[06:47] <dupondje> so just want to replace the patch file in debian/patches/
[07:40] <Noskcaj> dupondje, quilt pop, do changes, quilt push, quilt refresh?
[07:43] <dupondje> well don't want to change the patch manually
[07:43] <dupondje> got an adjusted patch upstream, just need to replace the current one with that one


[00:08] <Noskcaj> darkxst, I'll update the branch in a few hours, not home yet
[00:09] <darkxst> Noskcaj, ok
[18:18] <MichaelTunnell> What kind of work would need to be done to get Ubuntu GNOME ready with 3.16 for 15.04? I am just curious as to level of work needed I am not asking for this to be done just curious just how much effort it would take.
[18:21] <MichaelTunnell> you are probably aware of all the people talking about that it "should be done" and podcasts talking about it as well I am just curious how much work it actually would be for the people doing it rather than the typical "should be done" perception.
[18:25] <MichaelTunnell> Also, I'm assuming it is safe to say that 3.12 will be in 14.10, correct?
[19:12] <MichaelTunnell> anyone? ^
[19:17] <Noskcaj> MichaelTunnell, Nearly all of 3.12 will be in 14.10, the bits that aren't will be in our stable PPA
[19:20] <MichaelTunnell> may I ask what didnt make it?
[19:23] <Noskcaj> Mostly just the gnome games
[19:23] <Noskcaj> You can check at http://phillw.net/ubuntu-gnome/utopic312.html
[19:57] <Noskcaj> darkxst, I think we can sync gnome-color-manager from debian testing to gnome3 PPA
[19:58] <Noskcaj> The only ubuntu change is the U-C-C patch
[20:12] <Noskcaj> https://launchpad.net/~noskcaj/+archive/ubuntu/gnome3
[20:53] <MichaelTunnell> Noskcaj: would you mind scrolling up and take a look at my other question regarding 3.16 and 15.04?
[20:53] <Noskcaj> We'd need to finish off the upower 0.99 and bluez5 transitions, then hope that non of the changes will break unity and ubuntu-phone
[22:14] <darkxst> Noskcaj, ok, but don't drop the ubuntu patch, we generally try to keep the ppa's as close to archive ready as possible
[22:14] <Noskcaj> ok, ignore that one then, i'm retarded and stuff
[22:15] <darkxst> Noskcaj, add that patch back in then I will take a look
[22:15] <Noskcaj> It needs refreshing, i don't think it's one i can refresh
[22:27] <Noskcaj> Was there any reason you'd only put screenshot into the staging PPA, not the gnome3 one?
[22:29] <darkxst> Noskcaj, http://pastebin.com/ia6pzM8V
[22:30] <Noskcaj> ty
[22:30] <darkxst> Noskcaj, no reason, any missing 3.12 bits just haven't got around to yet
[22:30] <Noskcaj> ok. you can probably copy screenshot from my PPA then
[22:31] <darkxst> and any tagged with trusty versions probably need re-merging with ubuntu/debian
[22:36] <darkxst> Noskcaj, if you take changes from debian, please copy their changelog entry across as well
[22:36] <Noskcaj> I think i have been. was there a package i didn't?
[22:37] <MichaelTunnell> Noskcaj: 1-10 how difficult is it to be in 15.04
[22:37] <darkxst> Noskcaj, file-roller
[22:38] <Noskcaj> MichaelTunnell, darkxst could probably answer better than me, but it really depends on what is in 3.16
[22:38] <Noskcaj> darkxst, ok, i'll fix that in a sec, just finishing color-manager
[22:38] <darkxst> Noskcaj, also for the gnome3 ppa, it would be better to clean up changlogs and merge with ubuntu packaging
[22:40] <darkxst> i.e. compress all the ~trusty/~utopic entries into one
[22:41] <Noskcaj> ok
[22:41] <darkxst> MichaelTunnell, its going to be pretty hard, given a few core components are lagging behind
[22:41] <Noskcaj> i'll be back in a few hours
[22:42] <MichaelTunnell> darkxst: ahh thats what I thought but just curious thanks for the info
[22:43] <darkxst> MichaelTunnell, and the gnome .0 release tend to be quite buggy
[22:44] <darkxst> and the .1 releases are incredibly close to our release date
[23:27] <MichaelTunnell> darkxst: yea that makes sense this is what I expected was the case


[05:45]  * Kilos waves to the locoteam
[05:47]  * PaulW2U waves back and goes off to work
[05:47] <Kilos> hehe
[05:47] <Kilos> hi nhaines
[07:38] <Kilos> hi dpm
[07:39] <dpm> hey Kilos
[10:36] <TaeheeJang> Have a nice Friday people!
[10:37] <ahoneybun> whoo
[10:37] <Kilos> haha TaeheeJang  you too
[10:39] <TaeheeJang> Kilos: Thankyou haha
[10:45] <MooDoo> yay friday
[10:46] <Kilos> hi MooDoo
[10:46] <MooDoo> howdy Kilos
[10:47] <MooDoo> are you well?
[10:48] <Kilos> yes ty and you?
[10:48] <MooDoo> yeah always good on a friday home servers updated smoothly so i'm happy lol
[10:48] <Kilos> hard work this timezone thing though
[10:48] <Kilos> nice
[10:49] <MooDoo> yeah it can be a pain, what's it there now?
[10:49] <Kilos> 12.50
[10:50] <MooDoo> ah not that bad then you're only +2 from me
[10:50] <MooDoo> well +1 at this time of year lol
[10:50] <Kilos> if there are any australians here then i have 9 hours back to the usa west coast and 9 ahead to the ausies
[10:51] <MooDoo>  it can be a pain if you needed to speak to someone in the us lol
[10:52] <Kilos> exciting though
[10:52] <MooDoo> oh definately, that's ubuntu/community for you :)
[10:53] <Kilos> :D
[11:34] <MooDoo> :)
[13:47] <belkinsa> Kilos, can I PM you>
[13:51] <Kilos> yessir belkinsa
[15:32] <Kilos> hi genii  dholbach
[15:36] <dholbach> hi Kilos
[15:39]  * genii slides Kilos a fresh beverage
[15:39] <Kilos> ty genii
[15:39] <genii> :D


[07:25] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[07:39] <zmoylan-pi> morning mammals
[07:42] <brobostigon> morning krikkits
[19:20]  * penguin42 hopes his mail to sainsburys gets to the team with the clue about their self-service tills; the UI changes they've made are a mess
[19:51] <zmoylan-pi> i've used self service tills 3-4 times. different shops, they are awful. i avoid most of the time and walk out if there's no humans on a till
[19:52] <penguin42> zmoylan-pi: I use them in preference most of the time, but you do have to get to know their quirks