[15:57] <pitti> hello
[15:58] <czajkowski> pitti: hey
[15:59] <slangasek> morning
[16:01] <lool> Wee
[16:02] <cjwatson> hi
[16:02] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is slangasek.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <njpatel> hello
[16:02] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-09-25
[16:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-09-25
[16:03] <slangasek> in we go!
[16:03] <slangasek> [TOPIC] action items
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[16:03] <slangasek>     * cjwatson to *possibly* look at dbus on ia64
[16:03] <slangasek> I'm told this is resolved
[16:03] <cjwatson> yes
[16:04] <slangasek> so, yay :)
[16:04] <cjwatson> turned out to be easy
[16:04] <slangasek> (ScottK sends his regrets for this meeting, btw, work conflict)
[16:04] <slangasek> agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-09-25, for those just arriving
[16:04]  * ogra is half way here
[16:04] <slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
[16:05] <cr3> * Hardware testing
[16:05] <cr3> We have one new bugs
[16:05] <cr3> #435257 - Karmic takes forever to install on a Toshiba NB 200
[16:05] <cr3> One solved bug:
[16:05] <cr3> #432497 - unable to install on Acer Aspire One because of broken SSD
[16:05] <cr3> And one outstanding:
[16:05] <cr3> #431970 - internal microphone not working on HP Mini Bixby and Toshiba NB100
[16:05] <cr3> Any Qs on bugs?
[16:05] <cr3> I'm actually dismantling the Aspire One to replace the drive as we speak, so we should have results next week
[16:06] <mdz> bug 435257, bug 432497, bug 431970
[16:06] <mdz> cr3, all three need triage
[16:06] <cr3> mdz: will do
[16:06] <slangasek> cr3: well, 435257 shouldn't have taken 2 days until the weekly release meeting to get targeted to karmic (I've just targeted it now)
[16:06] <slangasek> part of the larger triage question, yes
[16:07] <cr3> ok, onto specs
[16:07] <cr3> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-increase-apport-adoption
[16:07] <cr3> No news.
[16:07] <cr3> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-extended-audio-testing
[16:07] <cr3> cr3 and fader to coordinate on testing a few laptops before integrating into the automated process.
[16:07] <cr3> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-metrics-based-testing-phase-2
[16:07] <cr3> On the client side, Phoronix has been integrated to run a few suites. On the server side, there were a few architectural problems but these are solved and now working on migration scripts.
[16:08] <cr3> Any Qs on specs?
[16:08] <mdz> cr3, no news on apport adoption?
[16:08] <mdz> didn't we make a major change in that area recently (the filebug redirect)?
[16:08] <pitti> we discussed that a lot in this week's desktop meeting
[16:09] <cr3> mdz: I thought that was done last week, my mistake.
[16:09] <pitti> right, we discussed the impact, and how to make it less strict
[16:09] <mdz> cr3, I think it was, but surely there has been some activity following that?
[16:09] <mdz> I would expect it to generate some discussion
[16:09] <pitti> so far the consensus was to not enforce it for ~ubuntu-bugcontrol, AFAIK
[16:09] <mdz> and for the QA team to be evaluating the results
[16:10] <cr3> mdz: I haven't received such information in time for this meeting, my apologies :(
[16:10] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-09-22 "Changed bug reporting process", FTR
[16:11] <mdz> cr3, please take an action to ensure that the QA team collects and processes feedback about this change
[16:11] <cr3> mdz: and where shall I follow up with this information?
[16:11] <slangasek> [ACTION] cr3 to ensure that the QA team collects and processes feedback about the filebug redirect change
[16:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cr3 to ensure that the QA team collects and processes feedback about the filebug redirect change
[16:11] <mdz> cr3, ubuntu-devel seems like an appropriate choice
[16:11] <cr3> mdz: will do, thanks
[16:12] <pitti> cr3: bug 432088 , FYI
[16:12] <mdz> cr3, where is the latest hardware test report?
[16:13] <cr3> mdz: fader is on vacation, so I suspect his last report will date back to Wednesday. I'll try to find the url
[16:13] <mdz> we should have a report at every release meeting
[16:14] <mdz> even if fader happens to be away
[16:14] <slangasek> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html is the permanent "current" report, which includes tests as recent as the 23rd
[16:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html is the permanent "current" report, which includes tests as recent as the 23rd
[16:14] <cr3> slangasek: thanks
[16:15] <slangasek> all the failures in that table are covered by the bugs mentioned earlier; there are a handful of "untested"s with documented reasons
[16:16] <mdz> we seem to still have some netbooks missing from the report
[16:16] <mdz> I've written to Marjo about that already, but we need to see it fixed for the next meeting
[16:16] <cr3> mdz: I'll double check the report reflects what we have in certification
[16:16] <slangasek> which ones are missing?
[16:17] <mdz> the report is a bit misleading because it doesn't include all of the models we're supposed to be testing for 9.10
[16:17] <mdz> slangasek, off the top of my head, the mini 10v
[16:17] <mdz> there's a full gap analysis in my email to marjo
[16:17] <slangasek> ok
[16:17] <cr3> mdz: we don't have a mini 10 though, just a 9
[16:18] <mdz> cr3, exactly!
[16:18] <mdz> it is a target which is not only untested, but we don't even have the hardware yet, i.e. it is way behind schedule
[16:18] <slangasek> [ACTION] cr3, marjo to follow through on netbooks missing from the hw certification lab
[16:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cr3, marjo to follow through on netbooks missing from the hw certification lab
[16:18] <cr3> mdz: ah, I thought you meant we weren't reporting on the hardware we had on hand, I was scared for a bit
[16:19] <mdz> cr3, no, I've requested that we report on the goals for the release
[16:19] <slangasek> well, not having the hardware that needs to be tested is also scary; but we have an action item for that now, so I think we can move on?
[16:19] <mdz> yes
[16:19] <slangasek> anything else for QA?
[16:20] <mdz> we're missing test cases for eucalyptus
[16:20] <cr3> not from me
[16:20] <mdz> kirkland, cjwatson, et al have worked on this a little
[16:20] <mdz> I think help from the QA team would be appreciated
[16:20] <cr3> mdz: will this require integration work across systems, or can it be self contained in a single standalone system for testing?
[16:20] <mdz> cr3, it requires a minimum of two computers
[16:21] <pitti> would two VMs suffice?
[16:21] <mdz> pitti, two VMs can work for testing the installation portion only (you can't start VMs inside a VM yet)
[16:21] <mdz> but they need to be connected to a common virtual LAN
[16:21] <pitti> ah, of course
[16:21] <mdz> the setup is non-trivial in either case
[16:21] <davmor2> mdz: I can do some work on that I'll have a chat with cjwatson and kirkland as too what they need
[16:21] <mdz> which is why we need a clear documented test plan
[16:22] <cr3> mdz: I'm afraid this will be difficult to automate for the karmic cycle
[16:22] <mdz> cr3, I am not looking for automation
[16:22] <slangasek> we're not looking for automation, we're looking for documentation
[16:22] <cr3> excellent, just checkin
[16:22] <mdz> we need to create a test plan before we can even think about automation
[16:22] <mdz> davmor2, thank you
[16:23] <mdz> davmor2, do you have two computers you can use for this testing?
[16:23] <cr3> this use case will be good for discussion during the next uds for automation
[16:23] <davmor2> 6
[16:23] <mdz> davmor2, ok, please work with ttx on this
[16:23] <davmor2> mdz: 6 but 4 on lan
[16:23] <davmor2> mdz: np
[16:23] <slangasek> [ACTION] davmor2 to work with ttx on creating a test plan for eucalyptus
[16:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davmor2 to work with ttx on creating a test plan for eucalyptus
[16:23] <mdz> he can point you to the existing documentation and forward test reports showing our current methodology
[16:24] <slangasek> davmor2: thanks for stepping forward
[16:24] <mdz> nothing more from me for QA
[16:24] <slangasek> anyone else?
[16:25] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
[16:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
[16:25] <slangasek> pitti: hello
[16:25] <pitti> as usual, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus has all the details
[16:25] <pitti> This week we finally got the Karmic artwork from the Design team, and integrated the new icon theme, wallpaper, and usplash logo.
[16:25] <pitti> The session and messaging indicators landed a lot of urgent fixes and are in good shape for beta now. Empathy also got some bug fixing love; audio calls are now working reasonably stable, video is still brittle (currently being debugged).
[16:25] <pitti> We fixed 5 RC bugs, and got two new ones.
[16:25] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:25] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:26] <pitti> I just heared that we probably need to squeeze a new gdm artwork into beta, will chat with slangasek about that after meeting
[16:26] <slangasek> ok
[16:26] <pitti> for final I'd like to finish the polkit-1 migration, so that we don't need to carry the old polkit stack in the default installation any more
[16:26] <slangasek> what remains to be converted there?
[16:27] <pitti> this should be relatively easy to do, but doesn't quite count as "bug fixing"
[16:27] <pitti> slangasek: screen-resolutions-extra is one
[16:27] <slangasek> (we can take that offline to #ubuntu-release after, if you wish)
[16:27] <pitti> the other is checkbox
[16:27] <pitti> checkbox doesn't "really" use polkit
[16:27] <pitti> I opened a bug and sub'ed cr3, I'd like to discuss it with him first
[16:27] <pitti> slangasek: yes, let's
[16:27] <pitti> too much detail for this meeting here
[16:28] <pitti> any questions?
[16:29] <pitti> oh, and of course the most critical bug EVER has been fixed: the nm-applet icon for ethernet which looked like a stray pacman ghost :-)
[16:29] <ogra> \o/
 hearts
[16:30] <pitti> Riddelll said that polkit-qt-1 won't make it, so we probalby have to live with bug 256245
[16:30] <slangasek> that's an o-o-b discussion, though ;)
[16:30] <pitti> slangasek: hearts> already fixed
[16:30] <slangasek> ok
[16:30] <pitti> slangasek: alex did a followup upload which pretty much changes it back to "normal"
[16:30] <pitti> no hearts for us, sorry
[16:31] <slangasek> pitti: could you go ahead and mark 256245 as 'wontfix' for karmic w/ explanation, then?
[16:31] <pitti> slangasek: will do
[16:31] <slangasek> no sense in tracking it if we know it's blocked on other bits
[16:32] <slangasek> any other questions from Desktop?
[16:32] <slangasek> s/from/for/
[16:32] <pitti> (done)
[16:32] <Riddelll> I need to check the upgrade script for Kubuntu some more
[16:33] <Riddelll> tseliot just fixed the intel-crash-on-logout bug which is great, although we now have another bug with KDM
[16:33] <Riddelll> otherwise Kubuntu is in decent shape
[16:33] <slangasek> great
[16:33] <pitti> I'm still testing jockey
[16:33] <pitti> Apport works for me now
[16:33] <pitti> (in KNE)
[16:33] <Riddelll> jockey worked for me, once I gave it network
[16:34] <pitti> ok, cool
[16:35] <slangasek> pitti: what's still beta wrt desktop-karmic-gnome-speech-replacement?
[16:35] <pitti> slangasek: it still needs a test plan/release note AFAIK
[16:35] <slangasek> ok
[16:35] <pitti> similar for the other specs
[16:35] <pitti> it's by and large "testing", "test plan", etc.
[16:36] <slangasek> seems like we'd want to have those for beta
[16:36] <slangasek> are we likely to have them?
[16:36] <pitti> ok, will make sure that we will have them
[16:37] <slangasek> thanks
[16:37] <slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
[16:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  DX Team
[16:37] <pitti> ACTION: pitti to ensure that we have test plans/release ntoes for all specs
[16:37] <davidbarth> As usual, the status report is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
[16:37] <slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to ensure that we have test plans/release notes for all specs
[16:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to ensure that we have test plans/release notes for all specs
[16:37] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
[16:37] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
[16:37] <davidbarth> mostly bug fixes
[16:37] <davidbarth> of note
[16:38] <davidbarth> indicator-session gained a user session menu to switch to open new session; that was in fusa/jaunty though
[16:38]  * slangasek nods
[16:38] <davidbarth> also support for locking the session on suspend/user-switch
[16:38] <davidbarth> that may help with #407315
[16:39] <davidbarth> xsplash was impacted by recent gdm patches for autologin
[16:39] <davidbarth> so we now have a nasty flicker; we've decided to work on that once the beta is out, to get a good baseline for a fina lset of fixes
[16:40] <davidbarth> the list of bugs on our radar is on the report
[16:40] <davidbarth> of note: #435522 - "xsplash timing out too early"
[16:40] <pitti> ^ especially on live system
[16:40] <davidbarth> #433719 - "indicator-applet crashed with SIGSEGV in g_str_hash()"
[16:40] <davidbarth> pitti: yep...
[16:40] <davidbarth> #430904 - Menu ordering gets "out of whack"
[16:41] <davidbarth> and a new unr crasher: #420478 - "netbook-launcher crashed with SIGSEGV in g_cclosure_marshal_VO..."
[16:41] <davidbarth> that njpatel is furiously working on
[16:42] <lool> Thanks for the nice bug fix releases along the week BTW
[16:42] <davidbarth> questions on DX?
[16:43] <Riddelll> in Kubuntu: agatau fixed a bug in kmail MI and I had to work around konversation not compiling with MI support (agateau to find a proper fix), so we're in decent shape.
[16:43] <davidbarth> Riddelll: yes, thanks for pointing this out
[16:44] <slangasek> davidbarth: please make sure that your release-targeted bugs get targeted to the release in launchpad (you can grab me or any other ubuntu dev to target them); that prevents us having two different lists that we're watching for "critical" bugs
[16:44] <Riddelll> KDM could do with upstart-ification at some point post-beta, nixternal has a script done already but needs keybuk and me to look over, but I believe our ksplashx stuff should work fine after that
[16:44] <davidbarth> slangasek: ok
[16:45] <slangasek> Riddelll: post-beta, not pre-beta?
[16:45] <cjwatson> I was wondering that too
[16:46] <cjwatson> not being upstartified presents some ... significant challenges to the installer
[16:46] <cjwatson> although I must admit that the "Install Kubuntu" option appears to actually work in today's image
[16:46] <Riddelll> well I could upload it quickly today, but I've not had a chance to test it yet
[16:46] <pitti> also, it's quite an intrusive change which could use the testing in beta?
[16:46] <slangasek> Riddelll: I can review it in the queue and poke Scott in person if I have doubts
[16:47] <Riddelll> and keybuk doesn't seem to be around to check with
[16:47] <slangasek> Riddelll: so I would favor having it uploaded today
[16:47] <pitti> I guess he's travelling back from LinuxCon
[16:47] <Riddelll> ok I'll get testing on it now
[16:47] <slangasek> AFAIK he's still /at/ plumbers :)
[16:47] <pitti> oh, ok; last plumbers was Tue-Thu
[16:47] <pitti> anyway
[16:47] <pitti> wrong, Wed-Fri
[16:48] <slangasek> anything else for DX?
[16:48] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
[16:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
[16:48] <lool> hey
[16:48] <ogra> here i am !
[16:48] <slangasek> hello
[16:48] <ogra> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[16:48] <ogra> - Various bugs were fixed this week, good work was done to identify the armel openoffice breakage, workaround in progress
[16:48] <ogra> - work on moblin is ongoing, images build again
[16:48] <ogra> - UNR still in good shape even after lots of updates (we're making ourselves jobless here, should consider to add some artificial brekage :P )
[16:48] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[16:48] <ogra> - closed spec on rootstock (offline-installer-gui)
[16:48] <ogra> - closed specs for marvell and freescale desktops
[16:49]  * ogra cant mention often enough how grateful we are for doko being with us on openoffice !
[16:50] <cjwatson> yes, he's been hoovering up a lot of toolchain stuff this week
[16:50] <ogra> and keeping all armel HW in the company busy with testbuilds :)
[16:50] <ogra> and i mean *all*
[16:51] <slangasek> is there an OOo workaround known now?
[16:51] <lool> Yes
[16:51] <pitti> \o/
[16:51] <lool> binutils' change has been identified
[16:51] <slangasek> the last workaround doko suggested was "ship a copy of old binutils with the OOo source package" :)
[16:51] <slangasek> ah, much better :)
[16:51] <ogra> heh
[16:51] <lool> I think we can revert it and rebuild oo.o
[16:51]  * pitti updates that on DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
[16:51]  * ogra guesses doko isnt happy having that sentence in the logs :P
[16:52] <lool> Sadly, the binutils change is likely exposing a bug in another place
[16:52] <lool> So we'll be hiding the real issue
[16:52] <slangasek> ok; but we're at least closer
[16:52] <ogra> but oo.o will run on armel
[16:52] <doko> no  OOo b-d on binutils-source, nobody will notice the extra build time ;p
[16:52] <lool> slangasek: yes; instead of knowing it's a toolchain change, we know now which part and which change
[16:53] <pitti> doko: gentoobuntu?
[16:53] <doko> genTOOobuntu
[16:53] <cjwatson> :-)
[16:53] <lool> haha
[16:53] <slangasek> lool: I see bug #430277 marked as "discussion ongoing" in the status report
[16:53] <lool> slangasek: So I escalated that bug via phone to design team on Monday evening
[16:53] <slangasek> lool: what's holding up bringing this to a conclusion?
[16:53] <lool> They wanted to chat with Mark about it and others
[16:53] <lool> and I pinged them again over email today
[16:53] <ogra> "the theme will be improved"
[16:54] <rickspencer3> presumably this issue now effects the desktop as well
[16:54] <ogra> discussion about *how* :)
[16:54] <pitti> will U1 get gray as well?
[16:54] <lool> slangasek: We need to know whether we want coloured icons for everything notification area, or always black and white (runtime desaturation) or a miw (what we have)
[16:54] <pitti> everything else is now
[16:54] <slangasek> lool: ok, have they been given a deadline for that to happen, so we're not trying to land these changes e.g., the week of RC?
[16:54] <lool> pitti: Exactly the problem
[16:54] <lool> pitti: many icons are visible only from time to time
[16:55] <lool> such as tomboy, rhythmbox, bluetooth...
[16:55] <rickspencer3> I feel that if it's a simple matter of changing to a thematically matching icon, we may as well get that in asap
[16:55] <lool> Not really
[16:55] <rickspencer3> but if it's about dynamically displaying different icons in different situations, then it's out of scope for Karmic
[16:55] <lool> I think the proper fix is to either use colours or to runtime transform the icons
[16:55] <rickspencer3> and we should stick with what he have and ship
[16:55] <lool> I dont think we can live with all icons being b&w because it's too hard to distinguish them, and the mix is ugly
[16:56] <rickspencer3> lool, right, my point is that it's too late to discussing "run time" fixes
[16:56] <lool> rickspencer3: Well instead of patching a bunch of icons we'd be patching code
[16:56] <lool> rickspencer3: Not sure why you feel it's harder
[16:56] <rickspencer3> lool, my point exactly
[16:56] <rickspencer3> because beta freeze was *yesterday* and it's time to stop making changes and fix crashers
[16:56] <lool> Problem is that we dont have a finite list of icons
[16:56] <lool> You can install any app
[16:56] <rickspencer3> imnsho
[16:57] <lool> rickspencer3: Ah you mean like not changing icon theme?  :-)
[16:57] <slangasek> patching icons would still present its own problems, in being able to make sure the right users get the right icons
[16:57] <rickspencer3> I mean, for the desktop anyway, I feel it's too late to fix this bug, as there is no clear direction, and we need to channel resources to the Karmic end game
[16:57] <lool> I think the easiest fix is to revert the notification area icons to colours in humanity
[16:58] <lool> it's a clearly identified change and I think they have a colour version already
[16:58] <rickspencer3> the easiest thing is to change nothing and live with the way it is for Karmic
[16:58] <slangasek> wasn't really meaning to open a fresh discussion about this here, though; just trying to make sure we're on track for resolving this issue
[16:58] <slangasek> since the bug has been open for some time now with no visible progress
[16:59] <lool> This bug triggered my proposal to drop humanity in UNR which triggered the move to humanity in the desktop  :-(
[16:59] <lool> anyway, status quo is ugly but not breaking anything and design team has been pinged
[16:59] <slangasek> hmm
[16:59] <rickspencer3> slangasek, who gets to make the call in terms of it being "too late" ?
[17:00] <slangasek> rickspencer3: the artwork deadline was yesterday; it's already late
[17:01] <rickspencer3> so I propose we close the bug as "won't fix" and take it up in Lucid UDS
[17:01] <slangasek> as regards "too late", any further changes are going to have to be discussed with the release team
[17:02] <slangasek> rickspencer3: well, my understanding is that the current result looks half-cooked; I'm not keen to ship that way either
[17:02] <lool> slangasek: I'll get back to you if I hear either way from the design team
[17:02] <lool> slangasek: I can ask humanity upstream to prepare a colour revert if you like
[17:02] <lool> I mean going back to colourful icons
[17:02] <slangasek> lool: I think it makes sense to have that lined up
[17:03] <lool> Ok
[17:03] <rickspencer3> thanks lool - I presume the desktop will be expected to follow suit
[17:03] <lool> Plus humanity folks are not busy with many more changes at this point any way
[17:03] <slangasek> [ACTION] lool to ask humanity upstream to prepare a colour revert for bug #430277
[17:03] <MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to ask humanity upstream to prepare a colour revert for bug #430277
[17:03] <lool> rickspencer3: we share the theme package now, so you will automatically
[17:04] <slangasek> anything else on the mobile side?
[17:04] <pitti> we'll ping the doc team for screen shot updates when that comes
[17:04] <ogra> we're happy
[17:04] <slangasek> pitti: better to warn them in advance that it may be coming, I think, so they don't waste time on screenshots they'll have to throw away?
[17:04] <pitti> slangasek: agreed
[17:05] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
[17:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
[17:05] <lool> slangasek, ogra: thanks
[17:05] <slangasek> pgraner: morning
[17:05] <slangasek> apw: here?
[17:06] <davidm> slangasek, pgraner is on a plane now I think
[17:06] <slangasek> ah
[17:06] <slangasek> any kernel concerns that anyone else needs to bring up?
[17:07] <mdz> pgraner is on a plane, but said he would be online
[17:07] <ogra> a bunch ... for imx51, but nothing that wasnt mentioned in mobile already
[17:07] <slangasek> bug list seems self-explanatory; including some that I talked through with the kernel team in person this week
[17:07] <mdz> slangasek, I wanted to make sure that linux-ec2 (source, binary, meta) get into main for beta
[17:08] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to get linux-ec2 into main for beta
[17:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to get linux-ec2 into main for beta
[17:08] <slangasek> mdz: looks like the meta's the only thing not there currently
[17:08] <slangasek> but yes, I'll follow through
[17:08] <mdz> slangasek, ok
[17:08] <mdz> it should be in the new uec seed, and so show up in component mismatches
[17:08] <slangasek> ok
[17:09] <cjwatson> yes, it's in c-m
[17:09] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
[17:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
[17:09] <slangasek> ttx: hi
[17:10] <mdz> I'm afraid ttx and I haven't synced up yet due to eucalyptus chaos, but I have a few agenda items here to add
[17:10] <slangasek> ok, please go ahead
[17:10] <mdz> first the MIRs for ec2-images
[17:10] <ttx> o/
[17:10] <mdz> it looks like several have been completed this week
[17:10] <ttx> mdz: I kinda updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
[17:11] <cjwatson> unless I'm missing something, m2crypto is the only one left
[17:11] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
[17:11] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
[17:11] <mdz> cjwatson, ah, I'd missed that ec2-init was 'fix committed' (what does that mean for an MIR?)
[17:11] <cjwatson> it means approved
[17:11] <mdz> bug 434744 is the master bug for the fact that the uec images were not main-pure
[17:11] <cjwatson> but there are still unpromoted dependencies so I was holding off actually promoting it
[17:12] <cjwatson> kees requested a change in m2crypto
[17:12] <mdz> cjwatson, are there MIRs for the dependencies already?
[17:12] <kees> i'd like to see the testsuite enabled, but beyond that, I'm ok with it
[17:12] <cjwatson> although said that he was fine with it going into main on the condition that the bug remains RC
[17:12] <cjwatson> or words to that effect
[17:12]  * kees nods
[17:12] <cjwatson> hmm, actually, ec2-init doesn't dep m2crypto
[17:13] <cjwatson> I thought it did for some reason
[17:13] <mdz> I assumed it was python-boto
[17:13] <pitti> the fixed ec2-init isn't uploaded yet
[17:13] <mdz> smoser, status of ec2-init?
[17:13] <pitti> the one in bzr head is okay
[17:13] <pitti> the one in the archive really shouldn't go anywhere near main
[17:13] <slangasek> euca2ools dep: python-m2crypto
[17:13] <cjwatson> does ec2-init need a sponsor or something?
[17:13] <mdz> I don't know, need input from smoser
[17:14] <mdz> I tried to reach him a few times this week but have had trouble getting hold of him
[17:14] <pitti> I talked to smoser yesterday, but he didn't mention uploading/sponsoring
[17:14] <pitti> we just talked about the actual changes needed
[17:14] <pitti> soren: can you help here?
[17:14] <cjwatson> I've promoted m2crypto
[17:15] <pitti> in terms of review/sponsoring/testing ec2-init?
[17:15] <smoser> mdz, soren is good with my changes and is trying to incorporate and will get a new version in karmic
[17:15] <mdz> soren is away, I'll need someone else to pick that up
[17:15] <ttx> mdz: zul can do that.
[17:15] <mdz> ttx, ok, please confirm that he will do it today
[17:15] <ttx> mdz: he's been watching the MIRs to see them to completion;
[17:16] <mdz> ttx, can zul also take care of the test suite in m2crypto?
[17:16] <zul> yeah I will do it today
[17:16] <slangasek> [ACTION] zul to get new ec2-init sorted today
[17:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to get new ec2-init sorted today
[17:16] <mdz> cjwatson, odd, euca2ools was already in main
[17:16] <cjwatson> mdz: yes, I promoted it before noticing that it had an unpromoted dep
[17:16] <mdz> so with m2crypto promoted, and ec2-init getting promoted today, that should be the last of it
[17:17] <cjwatson> and decided it didn't matter so much since we knew we were going to do it anyway
[17:17] <mdz> remaining EC2 bugs are at
[17:17] <mdz> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ec2-images
[17:17] <cjwatson> it's been whining at us in karmic_probs for a bit
[17:18] <mdz> one outstanding item I don't think we have a bug for on that list...switching vmbuilder to use seed tasks rather than the hardcoded package list for karmic
[17:18] <mdz> do we want to attempt that for beta?
[17:18] <cjwatson> I thought that was committed
[17:18] <mdz> branch?
[17:18] <cjwatson> you committed it, did you not?
[17:19] <cjwatson> that was the one I sent a patch for
[17:19] <mdz> no, I committed the seed change
[17:19] <mdz> smoser, have you tested the vmbuilder patch?
[17:20] <cjwatson> oh, you just said "thanks for the patch", I took that as meaning you'd committed it :)
[17:20] <smoser> i've not done that. i can do it. is there a bug for that explicitly ?
[17:20] <smoser> i have to verify that the uec seed has my latest adds to the package list (linux-virtual and linux-ec2)
[17:20] <mdz> smoser, it does
[17:20] <cjwatson> mdz: the seed doesn't include libc6-i686, but the bug we were trying to fix (bug 427288) says that we need both libc6-i686 and libc6-xen
[17:20] <cjwatson> is this an error?
[17:21] <mdz> smoser, please test the vmbuilder patch, compare the installed package list in the image, and if it looks OK, commit
[17:21] <slangasek> libc6-i686 is wanted on UEC; libc6-xen is wanted on EC2
[17:21] <mdz> since we're using one image for both, we need both
[17:21] <cjwatson> ok, is it harmful to have both?
[17:21] <mdz> cjwatson, I just applied your patch
[17:21] <mdz> smoser, should we add both to the seed?
[17:21] <slangasek> cjwatson: nope
[17:21] <slangasek> (now that this bug is fixed, anyway :)
[17:21] <cjwatson> mdz: yeah, I was just going from what was in vm-builder
[17:22] <cjwatson> I'll add libc6-i686 to the seed
[17:22] <mdz> cjwatson, thanks
[17:22] <cjwatson> (done)
[17:23] <slangasek> [ACTION] smoser to test vmbuilder patch to use germinate
[17:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to test vmbuilder patch to use germinate
[17:23] <smoser> well, wait. libc6-xen can only be added on i387
[17:23] <smoser> i386
[17:23] <smoser> can that be done with a seed ?
[17:23] <cjwatson> yes
[17:23] <slangasek> yes
[17:23] <mdz> smoser, yes
[17:23] <cjwatson> I just did
[17:23] <smoser> perfect.
[17:23] <smoser> then i'll test.
[17:23] <cjwatson> note that it will be a bit over an hour before the Task field for libc6-i686 in the archive is updated, but you can test the rest of it before then
[17:24] <mdz> smoser, isn't bug 429169 fixed by installing linux-ec2?
[17:24] <smoser> yes.
[17:24] <mdz> smoser, Fix Committed then?
[17:25] <smoser> its fix-committed in vmbuilder.
[17:25] <mdz> other targeted bugs for ec2:
[17:25] <mdz> bug 431103
[17:25] <mdz> bug 423297
[17:26] <mdz> bug 414997
[17:26] <mdz> er
[17:26] <mdz> bug 423497
[17:26] <smoser> zul is working on 431103, and believes he'll have something for kernel team later today.
[17:26] <mdz> bug 431255
[17:26] <mdz> is there actually a kernel upload planned for beta?
[17:27] <mdz> smoser, are any of the above bugs not going to be fixed today?
[17:27] <pitti> hm, we just had one last night? (kernel upload)
[17:28] <smoser> zul has been working on 431103 and has something to go to kernel team later today
[17:28] <cjwatson> I'd like to know when the last kernel upload will be so that I can build d-i, certainly ...
[17:28] <mdz> smoser, is it a blocker for beta or not?
[17:28] <smoser> i actually dont know where soren is on 414997 (run-once-per-ami)
[17:28] <mdz> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.tag=ec2-images
[17:28] <smoser> sudoers (423497) is fixed in vmbuilder trunk
[17:29] <lool> (I personally would love to know whether the ARM kernels will get a merge from main kernel and an upload too)
[17:29] <lool> And I expect linux-ec2 needs one too
[17:29] <smoser> 431255 (S99 user data) is next on the todo list for today
[17:29] <mdz> smoser, 431103 is open on ec2-init, but you're saying it's actually a kernel problem? if so, please move it to the linux package
[17:29] <cjwatson> hmm, new kernels in binary new
[17:29]  * cjwatson processes
[17:29] <mdz> who can help smoser get his vmbuilder changes into the archive today?
[17:29] <smoser> mdz, 431103 is a big deal, it absolutely has to be fixed. but whether or not it blocks beta i dont know.
[17:30] <lool> happy to sponsor
[17:30] <mdz> smoser, IIRC you said most people don't even seem to know that the key is visible on the console ;-)
[17:30] <slangasek> I'm also available to help with vmbuilder sponsorship
[17:30] <cjwatson> me if nobody else, but I'll be out from 1700 UTC to c. 2100 UTC
[17:30] <lool> or perhaps someone in his TZ
[17:30] <lool> slangasek: Ok I take the first shift  :-)
[17:30] <mdz> smoser, please send me an email confirming status at the end of the day
[17:30] <mdz> anything else on EC2?
[17:30] <smoser> mdz, yes, i've said that, and its true. but the fact that no  one cares about security doesn't mean it doens't have to be secure
[17:31] <mdz> smoser, I think that means it can miss beta
[17:31] <smoser> regarding vmbuilder changes... they dont *have* to be in the archive. we're building the nighly builds with trunk vmbuilder. so they get the changes.
[17:31] <mdz> can someone follow up with the kernel team re: refreshing ARM and EC2 kernels as lool mentioned?
[17:32] <mdz> smoser, oh, then that can wait until next week I guess
[17:32] <lool> Does someone sync with pgraner later today?
[17:32] <mdz> rtg is here at plumbers
[17:32] <mdz> pgraner is on a plane and I don't know if I will speak to him today
[17:33] <lool> Perhaps someone at plumbers can talk to rtg?
[17:33] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to follow up with the kernel team wrt ARM, EC2 kernel refreshes for beta
[17:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to follow up with the kernel team wrt ARM, EC2 kernel refreshes for beta
[17:33] <lool> thanks
[17:33] <slangasek> probably more effective to do that in person, yes
[17:33] <mdz> slangasek, just to be clear, I don't know of any urgent need to refresh the EC2 kernel for beta, only a vague worry that it might be concealing regressions
[17:34] <mdz> but I would like to know what their general strategy is wrt keeping those packages up to date, since it doesn't seem to be "update them whenever the trunk changes"
[17:34] <mdz> can we move on to eucalyptus?
[17:34] <slangasek> mdz: right, I want a consistent set of kernel packages for beta, not have half of them lagging behind the current upstream release...
[17:34] <ttx> Euclyptus tracked bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=eucalyptus
[17:35] <slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=eucalyptus
[17:35] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=eucalyptus
[17:35] <mdz> ok, eucalyptus
[17:35] <mdz> unfortunately I don't think this list is complete
[17:35] <mdz> there are a lot of untriaged bugs on the eucalyptus source package as well
[17:35] <mdz> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eucalyptus
[17:35] <mdz> this is in very bad shape at the moment in terms of beta
[17:36] <mdz> we are going to be putting in extra hours I'm sure
[17:36] <ttx> mdz: I'll try to sync with nurmi later to see what failed in my cloud install.
[17:36] <mdz> there were several tests done overnight which identified new bugs
[17:36] <mdz> there seem to be problems with the cloud installer, with the eucalyptus packages, and with eucalyptus upstream
[17:37] <mdz> I haven't processed all of the mail on this overnight, and it is changing rapidly
[17:37] <cjwatson> I'd appreciate somebody reviewing the eucalyptus package in unapproved
[17:37] <mdz> the one I uploaded?
[17:37] <cjwatson> the one I uploaded following yours (which you apparently didn't upload to anything other than a PPA)
[17:38] <cjwatson> Dustin and I fixed four additional bugs over the two you fixed
[17:38] <mdz> cjwatson, I uploaded it to a PPA first and then to the archive later, or at least that's what I intended
[17:38] <pitti> looking
[17:38] <cjwatson> either it didn't make it to the archive, or it was rejected
[17:38] <pitti> cjwatson's version includes both
[17:38] <cjwatson> anyway, my upload includes yours, assuming you didn't have anything uncommitted to bzr
[17:38] <mdz> bah
[17:38] <kirkland> i didn't see it make the archive, but i was unsure, so i bumped the version and marked unreleased for my 3 fixes
[17:38] <mdz> cjwatson, nothing uncommitted to bzr, no
[17:39] <mdz> does cjwatson's upload include kirkland's changes?
[17:39] <cjwatson> yes
[17:39] <pitti> three changes from him, yes
[17:39] <mdz> ok, we need to get that in and building ASAP
[17:39] <mdz> and new server ISOs with it
[17:40] <cjwatson> I think that fixes all the identified beta-critical installer issues
[17:40] <mdz> great
[17:40] <mdz> which leaves the eucalyptus packaging and upstream issues
[17:40] <cjwatson> slight emphasis on think there
[17:40] <mdz> cjwatson, have you done a test install with it?
[17:40] <cjwatson> no
[17:41] <mdz> I suffered yesterday trying to hand-hack an iso to test it
[17:41] <cjwatson> I'll be back later tonight and can do a test install
[17:41] <ttx> mdz: what packaging fixes are you thinking about ?
[17:41] <slangasek> trigger set for another server ISO w/ the pending eucalyptus
[17:41] <mdz> ttx, getting auto registration working? fixing those incorrect dependencies?
[17:42] <mdz> triaging that long list of bugs on the package
[17:42] <mdz> slangasek, thanks
[17:42] <cjwatson> which incorrect dependencies?
[17:42] <cjwatson> dustin fixed the dhcp one
[17:42] <mdz> bug 435130
[17:42] <ttx> ok.
[17:43] <mdz> kirkland, any luck with bug 432154?
[17:43] <cjwatson> oh, that thing, ugh
[17:43] <pitti> eucalyptus accepted
[17:43] <mdz> he said yesterday that he had a fix for it, just needed to change the kvm invocation
[17:43] <mdz> is that by any chance in his eucalyptus changes?
[17:43] <cjwatson> no
[17:43] <mdz> ok, that's beta-critical
[17:44] <cjwatson> I have to go in 17 minutes at the latest, and ideally need to have a bit of getting-ready-to-go-out time before that
[17:44] <mdz> I don't know anything about bug 385435
[17:44] <kirkland> mdz: it works for me with driver='scsi' or driver='virtio'
[17:44] <kirkland> mdz: they're using driver='phy'
[17:44] <kirkland> mdz: waiting on nurmi to verify
[17:44] <mdz> kirkland: I don't know the implications of that. will it be fixed today?
[17:44] <kirkland> mdz: jdstrand found that if he tried to attach/detach 28 times, it would fail
[17:44] <kirkland> mdz: i don't know
[17:45] <jdstrand> fwiw, it works for me with usb too
[17:45] <mdz> I desperately need someone to triage https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eucalyptus
[17:46] <mdz> kirkland, can you do that today?
[17:46] <kirkland> mdz: triage 50ish bugs ... is this higher priority than getting our cloud in the suite running?
[17:47] <jdstrand> kirkland: actually, I was using nurmi's test case almost exactly, and it was working here. I'm not sure that attach is broken anymore (other than the 28 times issue I discovered this morning)
[17:47] <mdz> kirkland, I don't think I can answer that until I get through the emails from dan and thierry
[17:47] <mdz> but it needs to be done today, otherwise we don't know where we stand
[17:47] <kirkland> jdstrand: i agree that i don't think anything is actually "broken", i think it's a matter of usage
[17:47] <kirkland> mdz: agreed
[17:47] <kirkland> mdz: okay, i'll triage those today
[17:47] <jdstrand> 'phy' with attach-device works... we need feedback from nurmi
[17:47] <mdz> thank you
[17:48] <ttx> kirkland: I'll try to spend a few evening cycles on that with you
[17:48] <mdz> anything else urgent on eucalyptus we haven't discussed here?
[17:48] <ttx> mdz: yes
[17:49] <ttx> I spent most of the day trying to make sure we had all the beta-critical bugs filed
[17:49] <ttx> basically running through the install and making it work
[17:49] <mdz> what's the URL for the list of those bugs?
[17:50] <ttx> I'm almost there, will debug what's left with nurmi tonight...
[17:50] <ttx> and file what is not due to my own stupidity or test setup
[17:50] <ttx> I didn't encounter anything new.
[17:50] <ttx> The only thing is that MANAGED-NOVLAN routing issue I need to debug first
[17:50] <ttx> and some booting errors I need to test the latest UEC image against
[17:51] <mdz> ok
[17:52] <ttx> I also will reinstall tomorrow with the daily CD
[17:52] <ttx> to confirm the fixes.
[17:53] <mdz> we'll continue testing here in portland as well
[17:53] <slangasek> does that cover us for eucalyptus, then (and for server)?
[17:54] <ttx> I need to go now anyway, to negociate evening work with wife ;)
[17:54] <mdz> slangasek, such as it is :-/
[17:54] <mdz> it's an area of great concern right now
[17:54] <mdz> and I can't be sure yet that we've covered all of the critical issues even. we'll see what comes out of that triage pass today
[17:55]  * slangasek nods
[17:55] <cjwatson> I have to go I'm afraid, slangasek has my foundations update
[17:55] <mdz> sorry to have taken up so much time with server
[17:55] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
[17:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team
[17:56] <jdstrand> o/
[17:56] <slangasek> kees: here?
[17:56] <slangasek> jdstrand: hello
[17:56] <kees> jdstrand is doing it today
[17:56] <jdstrand> slangasek: I'll lead today
[17:56] <slangasek> ok
[17:56] <kees> I'm here to fill in any details
[17:56] <slangasek> there were just two bugs that bubbled up as needing attention release-wise
[17:56] <slangasek> bug #429872, bug #131976
[17:56] <jdstrand> kees has decided to work on bug #429872
[17:56] <jdstrand> Progress is ongoing (cosmetic, not for beta)
[17:57] <jdstrand> kees added apparmor to the initramfs to avoid races where binaries with profiles could be started before apparmor (and thus run unconfined). This inadvertently reintroduced bug #131976 for karmic, which he fixed in 2.3.1+1403-0ubuntu22. This was accepted several hours ago
[17:57] <pitti> second bug is in karmic
[17:57] <pitti> ... fix
[17:57] <jdstrand> as for other stuff
[17:57] <jdstrand> noisy console output from ufw is fixed in 0.29-4ubuntu1. kees uploaded a fix for noisy apparmor console output (bug #435285), but not totally resolved. fix by kees in Vcs, cosmetic, not for beta
[17:58] <jdstrand> mdeslaur fixed important apparmor userspace bugs (bug #427966 and bug #431929). With these fixes, apparmor should be in good shape
[17:58] <jdstrand> I worked on libvirt/apparmor integration bugs and believe they should now all be fixed in 0.7.0-1ubuntu8:
[17:58] <jdstrand> bug #432581 bug #435527 bug #432810
[17:58] <jdstrand> some of my investigation into attach/detach led to progress on bug #432154. my testing of that bug shows it may no longer be a problem (as mentioned)
[17:59] <jdstrand> the above combined should completely fix bug #431090, which no longer needs (or has) a workaround. I've asked eucalyptus upstream to also fully test and get back to me if there are any problems. They agreed and are doing so (no new problems reported so far wrt apparmor integration)
[17:59] <jdstrand> kees pinged Tresys about selinux bug #434084 and they are looking into it
[17:59] <jdstrand> One regression-potential bug remains: bug #436221 (firefox-3.5 jaunty -> karmic upgrade). Fix for this and a few profiling refinements is pending. talked to asac this morning-- he will merge
[17:59] <jdstrand> In terms of features, mdeslaur got his apache2 FFe bug #430812 in before Beta. everything else is same as last week
[18:00] <mdz> I'm finding it hard to pick out which of the above bugs are open
[18:00] <jdstrand> mdz: 434084 (selinux)
[18:01] <jdstrand> 435285 (apparmor console output)
[18:01] <jdstrand> 429872 (apparmor Profile doesn't conform to protocol)
[18:01] <slangasek> jdstrand, kees: yes, in the future it would be helpful if the report could be limited to those issues that are outstanding and regarded as critical for release
[18:01] <jdstrand> 436221 (firefox-3.5 jaunty -> karmic upgrade)
[18:02] <jdstrand> slangasek: sure-- we are new to this. I've already made a note to create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
[18:02] <slangasek> ok, thanks
[18:02] <mdz> jdstrand, thanks
[18:02] <kees> slangasek: ok, noted.  afaict 434084 (selinux) is in universe, so not a beta blocker. 435285 and 429872 are cosmetic and not beta blockers.  jdstrand is 436221 considered a blocker?
[18:03] <jdstrand> kees: I think 436221 doesn't bite today, but will as soon as 3.5.3 is released, and that my happen while beta isos are available for people
[18:04] <slangasek> please target/milestone that bug accordingly
[18:04] <jdstrand> it requires a jaunty user have ff35 installed, 3.5.3 is uploaded to the archive for -security, then the user upgrades to beta
[18:04] <jdstrand> if that is an acceptable risk, the bug can be a non-blocker
[18:04] <kees> slangasek: I've adjusted<PHONE_NUMBER>85 429872 to be non-beta.
[18:05] <slangasek> jdstrand: I would prefer we get that bug fixed
[18:05] <jdstrand> slangasek: it is committed in bzr, and a merge proposed
[18:05] <slangasek> especially as it seems the fix is already known
[18:05] <jdstrand> slangasek: talked to asac this morning and he is committing it. I'll get with him to upload it
[18:05] <slangasek> thanks
[18:05] <ace_suares> hello, edubuntu meeting here??
[18:06] <slangasek> any other concerns on security release-wise?
[18:06] <ace_suares> #startmeeting
[18:06] <MootBot> ace_suares, There is already a meeting in progress.
[18:06] <ace_suares> oh
[18:06] <jdstrand> slangasek: I don't have anything
[18:06] <slangasek> ok
[18:06] <slangasek> ace_suares: sorry, the Ubuntu release meeting is running long; we'll try to wrap up ASAP
[18:07] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
[18:07] <ace_suares> okay no worries edubuntu meeting will probably have low attendence. Take your time.
[18:07] <slangasek> jdstrand: thanks for the report
[18:07] <slangasek> as cjwatson had to leave, he braindumped to me beforehand
[18:07] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
[18:08] <slangasek> bug status updated on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic; a number of bugs from the agenda were already fixed
[18:08] <slangasek> who wants to be responsible for bug 412437? it's on the foundations list on the agenda, but it's in universe and tagged ct-rev, so I don't think it should be
[18:08] <slangasek> about half of the major outstanding boot bugs fixed this week; progress continues on the rest
[18:08] <slangasek> one major installation bug left, IMO (bug 431786, clock reset after partitions are created), which is fixable by beta; otherwise, current tests have been moderately reassuring for the most part
[18:08] <slangasek> lots of usb-creator work this week, especially landing PolicyKit support
[18:08] <slangasek> UbuntuSpec:software-library: now in by default, although not without naming controversy ... Michael has been working hard on bugs here
[18:08] <slangasek> UbuntuSpec:foundations-karmic-bootspeed-targets: now in bug-fixing stage
[18:08] <slangasek> UbuntuSpec:foundations-karmic-oemconfig: done as far as we're going to for karmic; some work carries over to lucid
[18:08] <slangasek> UbuntuSpec:foundations-karmic-wubi: feature work deferred; however it at least now works for me again (woohoo), although Agostino is still having some GRUB problems which appear not to be universal
[18:08] <slangasek> plus personally I've been hoiked into eucalyptus fire-fighting so am a bit behind on bugs
[18:08] <slangasek> EOF
[18:08] <slangasek> Riddelll: I noted to cjwatson that for 412437, I had suggested removing the package; he agrees in principle, but wants it cleared by Kubuntu folks first
[18:09] <slangasek> Riddelll: do you have an opinion?
[18:09] <pitti> naming controversy> now being renamed to software-center
[18:09] <slangasek> AIUI the kgrubeditor package is perpetually broken, and isn't present in Debian either
[18:09] <Riddelll> slangasek: yeah I guess that has to go
[18:10] <slangasek> Riddelll: ok - could you ack it in the bug, and I can schedule removal?
[18:10] <Riddelll> done
[18:10] <slangasek> pitti: I spoke with Keybuk yesterday, and he has a set of final ubuntu-boot fixes to land for beta which he won't be able to upload until Tuesday European time (because he's in the air on Monday)
[18:11] <slangasek> pitti: will you be available to review those in the unapproved queue and get them in that day, so they can land ASAP?
[18:11] <pitti> ok, I'll make sure to review them as quickly as possible
[18:11] <pitti> yes, absolutely
[18:11] <pitti> and trigger CD builds when they are in
[18:11] <slangasek> thanks
[18:12] <slangasek> (I haven't seen the changes in question yet, of course, so please review them to make sure they're freeze-suitable - I just know they're coming and are supposed to fix bugs we need fixed)
[18:13] <pitti> of course
[18:13] <slangasek> any questions for foundations?
[18:13] <pitti> what could possibly break.. :-P
[18:14] <slangasek> heh
[18:14]  * pitti reviews and accepts ec2-init
[18:14] <slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
[18:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
[18:14]  * sistpoty|work waves
[18:15] <sistpoty|work> ftbfs is still a major concern
[18:15]  * slangasek nods
[18:15] <sistpoty|work> fixes trickle in at at too low rate imo
[18:15] <sistpoty|work> others than that FFe request seem to have come down a little bit this week
[18:15] <sistpoty|work> I guess that's it from my side
[18:16] <slangasek> http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909-karmic.html
[18:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909-karmic.html
[18:16] <slangasek> that's the current ftbfs report, right?
[18:16] <sistpoty|work> right
[18:16] <sistpoty|work> it now has fixed packages marked as superseeded :)
[18:16] <slangasek> ok, cool
[18:17] <sistpoty|work> thanks to wgrant!
[18:17] <slangasek> has this list been pointed to on ubuntu-devel?
[18:17] <sistpoty|work> not too sure actually, I don't think so
[18:17] <slangasek> I can include a mention in my next u-d-a "here's what we need to do" mail, but in the meantime a post to u-d is probably a good idea?
[18:18] <sistpoty|work> slangasek: excellent! :)
[18:18] <slangasek> ok
[18:18] <slangasek> anything else?
[18:19] <sistpoty|work> oh, cjwatson fixed ia64 :)
[18:19] <sistpoty|work> apart from that, nothing from my side
[18:19] <slangasek> ok
[18:19] <ogra> slangasek, given that edubuntu just rna in here and that they start to have a proper release again, they should get a spot in this meeting from lucid on imho
[18:19] <ogra> *ran
[18:20] <ogra> not sure it makes sense this round anymore ... LaserJock ?
[18:21] <slangasek> ogra: no, we don't need any more context switches in the meeting than we already have; problems affecting edubuntu should be brought up with the relevant teams, or brought up ad-hoc
[18:21]  * sistpoty|work gotta run now... cya
[18:21] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[18:21] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:21.
[18:21] <ogra> slangasek, ok
[18:21] <lool> slangasek: thanks
[18:21] <ace_suares> #startmeeting
[18:21] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:21. The chair is ace_suares.
[18:21] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:21] <slangasek> anyway, let's clear the floor so that edubuntu can have their meeting :)
[18:21] <pitti> thanks all
[18:21] <slangasek> ace_suares: sorry, thanks for your patience
[18:21] <slangasek> and thanks, all
[18:21] <ace_suares> no problem
[18:21] <ace_suares> let the release rock !
[18:22] <LaserJock> ace_suares: agenda?
[18:22] <ace_suares> [Topic] Agenda
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
[18:22] <ace_suares> I think there is no agenda other then the usual weekly reports stuff. We can add:
[18:22] <ace_suares> - Release DVD; Wiki; Sabayon; Handbook;
[18:22] <ace_suares> anything else?
[18:22] <ace_suares> PRESENT
[18:23] <LaserJock> I'd like to discuss a tad bit about the EC
[18:23] <LaserJock> concerning the email I sent regarding Requests for Consideration (to borrow a Debian term)
[18:24] <ace_suares> yeah cool. One more: rmeeting rescheduling so LJ can be available, and european partners too
[18:25] <ace_suares> [Agenda]\
[18:25] <ace_suares> wo
[18:25] <ace_suares> [18:25] <ace_suares> Fri Sep 25 17:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
[18:25] <ace_suares>  * Weekly Reports
[18:25] <ace_suares>  * Release DVD
[18:25] <ace_suares>  * LaserJocks Request for Comments (EC)
[18:25] <ace_suares>  * Sabayon?
[18:25] <ace_suares>  * Handbook?
[18:25] <ace_suares>  * Meeting Schedule
[18:25] <ace_suares> [TOPIC] Weekly Reports
[18:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Reports
[18:25] <ace_suares> Any one got something to report?
[18:26] <LaserJock> not a lot in the last week from me
[18:26] <LaserJock> but the DVDs are being built daily
[18:26] <LaserJock> Beta is coming up quick
[18:26] <LaserJock> we need to get amd64 tested this time
[18:27] <LaserJock> for Alpha6 we didn't get any testing so it had to be dropped from the release
[18:27] <LaserJock> we also need to get updated testing instructions on iso.qa.ubuntu.com
[18:27] <LaserJock> as what's on there now points to Addon testing
[18:28] <ace_suares> [Topic] Release DVD
[18:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Release DVD
[18:28] <ace_suares> LaserJock: Can you make like a schedule for when things need to be tested?
[18:28] <ace_suares> I cna then send remionders to the list.
[18:28] <ogra> beta is on thu
[18:28] <ogra> isos are being built from tue on
[18:29] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule
[18:29] <ogra> you usually can count on freeze for an alpha/beta/rc being the tue before the respective release
[18:30] <ogra> from then on testing should start
[18:30] <ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTesting is this page up to date? If not we want to make it up to date before tue and move
[18:30] <ace_suares> oh sorry not move he eh
[18:30] <ace_suares> But it should be Edubutu/Release/9.10/Testing or something
[18:30]  * ogra wouldnt make that versioned
[18:31] <ogra> just adjust the content for a new release, so you dont create pages over and over
[18:31] <ace_suares> So what, I can work out a schedule my self looking at the release page? I can do and then will sned to devel and then you can approve or change and then i can send reminders to the list. We should alsomention zsync in 9.04 is broken and need package from 9.10 OR use rsync
[18:32] <ace_suares> Then it should be Edubuntu/Testing
[18:32] <ace_suares> ogra: it says please dont' edit this page so I am stadning off...
[18:32] <ogra> or Edubutu/Release/Testing ... as you like :)
[18:32] <ace_suares> yeah okay better.
[18:32] <ogra> its bound to the isotracker
[18:32] <ogra> thats why it has that note
[18:32] <ace_suares> what is an isotracker?
[18:33] <ogra> the thing LaserJock mentioned above :)
[18:33] <ogra> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
[18:33] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
[18:34] <ace_suares> actually http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/edubuntu/all
[18:34] <ace_suares> hm it's still listed as an add-on ?
[18:34] <ogra> thats what LaserJock said ...
[18:35] <ogra> you should start using action items in your meeting ;)
[18:35] <ace_suares> sorry i am missing things obiviouyslly, must be visually challenged
[18:35] <ace_suares> so, who is going to simplify the test schedule so we can all try and motivate more poeple to test?
[18:36]  * LaserJock returns from checking on experiment
[18:36] <LaserJock> I can put together a list and send it to -devel
[18:37] <LaserJock> stgraber can probably make changes in the tracker
[18:37] <ace_suares> [Action] LaserJock puts together a list of dates when we need testing and posts it to -devel
[18:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  LaserJock puts together a list of dates when we need testing and posts it to -devel
[18:37] <ace_suares> [Action] Ace volunteers to write up a Testing page that outlines the simple procedure to test, links to all relevant procedures etc
[18:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Ace volunteers to write up a Testing page that outlines the simple procedure to test, links to all relevant procedures etc
[18:37] <ace_suares> stgraber: are you here?
[18:38] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if we need that page anymore though
[18:38] <LaserJock> the QA team has their own wiki for test cases
[18:38] <ace_suares> I think we need a page that outlines what we expect from our community and then link tru to the various pages that are relevant
[18:39] <ace_suares> Like a starting point that is edubuntu specific
[18:39] <ace_suares> but of course I will immediately agree with LaserJock if that means I can keep on doing nothing :-)
[18:39] <LaserJock> well
[18:39] <LaserJock> we should have a Testing page that sends people to the tracker, etc.
[18:39] <ogra> it would need a set of cases on http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ i guess
[18:39] <LaserJock> but the actual "this is what you test" wiki page is on the QA wiki
[18:40] <ogra> unless you can add individual links to the tracker
[18:40] <LaserJock> I think the tracker links to a particular page on testcases.qa.u.c already
[18:40] <LaserJock> if we have permission to edit that one we should just do that
[18:40] <ogra> yep http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/EdubuntuDesktop
[18:41] <ogra> and http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/EdubuntuAddOnCD
[18:41] <LaserJock> hmm, http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/EdubuntuAddonCd is the one it links to, which is not optimal :-)
[18:41] <ogra> as well as http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/LTSPServer if you want to include that ( alkisg seemed to have interest here )
[18:42] <ace_suares> [Action] Ace is not volunteering to set up a testing page anymore due to unexpected complexities
[18:42] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Ace is not volunteering to set up a testing page anymore due to unexpected complexities
[18:42]  * alkisg volunteers to test the ltsp installation
[18:42] <LaserJock> ok, well somebody should get the testing thing all figured out
[18:43] <ace_suares> Sorry guys, my time is almost up here
[18:43] <ogra> ace_suares, s/complexities/challenges/
[18:43] <ogra> ;)
[18:44] <LaserJock> ok, well
[18:44] <ace_suares> ogra: yeah. right :-)
[18:44] <LaserJock> is there anything that's quick that IRC is good for?
[18:44] <LaserJock> else we can shove things onto edubuntu-devel for discussion
[18:44] <ace_suares> LaserJock: I don't know.
[18:45] <LaserJock> I had a good discussion with highvoltage the other day concerning the Edubuntu Council and providing more leadership/direction for contributors
[18:45] <LaserJock> one of the results is that email I sent
[18:45] <ace_suares> LaserJock: Normally, i'd put up a page and in doing so figuring out all things that are related, asking around and such, but if it's already doubtful if we need such page then I'm not even starting. Once bitton, twice shy.
[18:46] <ace_suares> [Topic] EC and Request for... Confirmation?
[18:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  EC and Request for... Confirmation?
[18:46] <ogra> first of all you should get a quorum again
[18:46] <LaserJock> yes
[18:46] <ace_suares> how much is the quorum ?
[18:46] <LaserJock> I believe we are working with the CC on that
[18:47] <ogra> three at least i think
[18:47] <LaserJock> we have 3
[18:47] <ace_suares> there is three is nt there?
[18:47] <ogra> but CC needs to approve
[18:47] <LaserJock> we'd like to get 2 more
[18:47] <ogra> who is EC atm ?
[18:47] <LaserJock> stgraber, highvoltage, and myself
[18:47] <ace_suares> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams/EdubuntuCouncil
[18:48]  * ogra is definately ready to retire, i think i'm still in the LP team
[18:48] <LaserJock> unfortunately all busy people :(
[18:48] <LaserJock> ogra: I think you got removed
[18:48] <ogra> ah, good
[18:48] <LaserJock> I did some cleanup and got the CC mad at me ;-)
[18:48] <ogra> heh
[18:48] <ace_suares> happens to the best then :-)
[18:48] <LaserJock> ace_suares: if you're not getting yelled at you're not doing enough!
[18:49] <ogra> ++
[18:49] <ace_suares> LOL
[18:50] <LaserJock> I'm working on getting a task list to finish of Karmic
[18:50] <ace_suares> Well, the problem is after being yelled at I'd tend to try to respect the points of the yeller and postpone working till a resolve is there, but that's maybe the wrong thing to do. I don't know.
[18:50] <ace_suares> Noting really moves forward.
[18:50] <LaserJock> ace_suares: they key I think is getting resolution quickly and moving on
[18:50] <LaserJock> we're stalling a lot
[18:50] <ace_suares> Now Waiting for the EC
[18:50] <ace_suares> And then it turns out that the EC has no quorom unless the CC approves
[18:50] <LaserJock> no, we have a quorom
[18:51] <LaserJock> barely
[18:51] <LaserJock> but I believe we have it
[18:51] <ogra> right, three is enough
[18:51] <ace_suares> My enthusiasm meter is going 51%... 49%... 50.9%... 49%... 50.5%...
[18:51] <LaserJock> in any case, I'm not sure that we need to have such rigidity there
[18:51] <LaserJock> I think people are just wanting a bit more guidance and a bit more "leadership" for lack of a better term
[18:52] <ace_suares> Even my first proposal of today got shot down.
[18:52] <LaserJock> ace_suares: which one was that?
[18:52] <LaserJock> oh, we should discuss meeting schedule before leaving
[18:53] <ace_suares> Oh, never mind. My wife is calling me for dinner. I gotta go. Can someone else do endmeeting or do in need to close? Trying to follow the mootbot.
[18:53]  * stgraber waves
[18:53] <ace_suares> [Topic] meeting schedule
[18:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  meeting schedule
[18:53] <LaserJock> ace_suares: you need to end it
[18:53] <ace_suares> Last meeting it was decided that Highvoltage should reschedule the meetings so LJ can be included, but nothing happened.
[18:53] <ace_suares> #endmeeting
[18:53] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:53.
[18:53] <LaserJock> ace_suares: he contacted me
[18:54] <LaserJock> ace_suares: so we should be moving forward a bit on that one
[18:54] <LaserJock> stgraber: we need to get the Edubuntu info on iso.qa.ubuntu.com updated
[18:54] <LaserJock> stgraber: can you help with that?
[18:54] <ace_suares> Splendid! So by lack of a proposal at the table the next meeting is next friday same time? or?
[18:54] <stgraber> LaserJock: sure
[18:55] <LaserJock> ace_suares: maybe we should do that and if we get a new schedule figured out in the mean time we can change it
[18:55] <ace_suares> Yeah, that would be the normal thing to do.
[18:55] <LaserJock> stgraber: do you have time now or should I send an email?
[18:56] <ace_suares> Okay I'm off have a good time all. Enjoy your everyday of your life and don't fill it with worthless tasks.
[18:56] <ace_suares> Bye!
[18:56] <alkisg> bye ace_suares :)
[18:56] <Lns> bye ace_suares
[18:56] <stgraber> LaserJock: I'm connected to quandong right now, so I can do a quick DB change quite easily
[18:56] <LaserJock> stgraber: awesome, let's move to #edubuntu to free up the room
[18:57] <stgraber> ok


[04:10] <Guest1274> hlw
[06:08] <mazal> Morning everyone
[06:15] <barrydk> Morning Morning
[06:16] <Kilos> morning all
[06:19] <Squirm> morning
[06:19] <Kilos> morning Squirm
[06:20] <Kilos> no yawns?
[06:20] <Squirm> not yet
[06:20] <Kilos> hi mazal barrydk
[06:21] <Kilos> hehe
[06:21] <Squirm> overslept my alarm by an hour
[06:21] <Kilos> wow
[06:21] <Squirm> hmm, I need coffee
[06:22] <Squirm> got home at 23:30
[06:22] <Kilos> ah
[06:22] <Kilos> yo HawkiesZA
[06:22] <Squirm> been to sleep after 12 every night for the past 2/3 weeks
[06:22] <Kilos> ouch
[06:23] <Squirm> been late most days :/
[06:24] <magespawn> howdy all
[06:24] <Kilos> hiya magespawn
[06:25] <magespawn> good and yourself Kilos?
[06:25] <Kilos> apart from that same flu hanging on not bad ty magespawn
[06:26] <Kilos> seems im getting used to runny nose and coughing
[06:26] <magespawn> flu does seem to take awhile to shake
[06:26] <magespawn> how are the sheep handling the winter
[06:26] <magespawn> ?
[06:27] <Kilos> hehe and i always bragged i dont get sick
[06:27] <Kilos> sheep dont feel the cold
[06:27] <Kilos> they just not happy that all the green grass is gone
[06:28] <magespawn> i thought that would affect them more
[06:28] <Kilos> but with modern technology the supplement gives them all they need and they fill up on dry grass
[06:28] <magespawn> funny to talk of unhappy sheep
[06:29] <Kilos> a product called maxiwol supplies all they need
[06:29] <magespawn> costs more to keep them then
[06:29] <barrydk> What do you feed them Kilos
[06:29] <Kilos> ya i think its was near R300 a bag but that feeds 9 sheep for a month
[06:31] <Kilos> one of the reps for the product many years ago explained it as giving them heartburn which forced them to eat dry grass to counter
[06:31] <HawkiesZA> Morning ya'll
[06:31] <Kilos> maxiwol barrydk
[06:31] <Kilos> there is a similar product for cattle too
[06:32] <Kilos> sb16 with zilmax
[06:32] <Kilos> stock dont lose condition at all in wonter
[06:33] <barrydk> We give ours "wildpille" game pellets i think. The sheep, cattle and blesbuck eat it
[06:33] <Kilos> as long as there lotsa dry grass
[06:34] <Kilos> made by?
[06:34] <Kilos> mine are from voermol
[06:35] <barrydk> no idea will find out for you.  But nguni's doesnt lose much condition around here they are tough
[06:36] <Kilos> ya
[06:37] <Kilos> i learned all about these products when running a bonsmara + stud
[06:37] <Kilos> forget other name
[06:37] <Kilos> they win the top slaughter animal every year
[06:38] <Kilos> hi sakhi
[06:38] <sakhi> Hi Kilos and #ubuntu-za
[06:39] <magespawn> Good morning HawkiesZA barrydk sakhi
[06:39] <superfly> ohi
[06:39] <HawkiesZA> supki magespawn
[06:39] <Kilos> hi superfly
[06:39] <HawkiesZA> supski even
[06:40] <superfly> hi magespawn, barrydk, sakhi, Kilos
[06:40] <magespawn> hey superfly lol@HawkiesZA
[06:40] <superfly> HawkiesZA, I've already said hello to you :-P
[06:40] <Kilos> lol
[06:40] <HawkiesZA> It's true
[06:41] <Kilos> superfly, did you klap him for ignoring us?
[06:41] <superfly> Kilos: I had a word with him, and he promised not to ignore you again... at least not intentionally
[06:41] <Kilos> hahaha
[06:42] <Kilos> and he has forgotten about the greeter script for QA hey?
[06:42] <Kilos> klap him again
[06:42] <HawkiesZA> A word that included threats of easypay support
[06:43] <superfly> those are mean words...
[06:43] <barrydk> Morning Superfly magespawn
[06:43] <HawkiesZA> :D
[06:44] <Kilos> well its good to have you both back
[06:44] <Kilos> :-)
[06:46] <HawkiesZA> Hurray! I'm useful!
[06:47] <Kilos> hehe
[06:50] <Kilos> mazal, die ou was hier gister
[06:50] <mazal> Mooi man
[06:51] <mazal> Geweet oom sal dit reg kry ;-)
[06:51] <Kilos> hy kry nou 12.04
[06:51] <Kilos> gese hy sal dit instaleer en terug kom
[06:51] <mazal> Sodra hy mooi die basics ken sal ek hom help met die media server deel
[06:51] <mazal> Dis iets wat ek ook doen
[06:51] <Kilos> tot sy niek geregistreer
[06:52] <Kilos> ok
[06:52] <Kilos> julle moet plan maak om maandag aand hier te wees vir die vergadering
[06:53] <mazal> Ek is nie beskikbaar Maandae nie
[06:53] <Kilos> ai!
[07:02] <Kilos> hi space
[07:03] <Kilos> hi Guest55430  too
[07:05] <Guest55430> Hello Kilos.
[07:05] <Spaceghost> It is not necessary to great us both.
[07:05] <Kilos> haha i was teasing
[07:30] <superfly> *greet
[07:30] <superfly> morning Vince-0
[07:30] <Kilos> yo Vince-0
[07:31] <Vince-0> Haai
[07:31] <Kilos> our spell checker is back yay
[07:35] <magespawn> great is spelt correctly
[07:35] <Kilos> lol ya
[07:36] <Kilos> but not if its meant to say hi
[07:36] <magespawn> indeed
[07:37] <mazal> We have a spell checker ?
[07:37] <magespawn> no software spell checker would have caught that
[07:37] <Kilos> yta the fly
[07:38] <mazal> hehe ok
[07:38] <magespawn> the servie provided goes a little further than mere spell checking
[07:39] <Kilos> service
[07:39] <Kilos> hehe
[07:39] <Kilos> much further
[07:42] <magespawn> awww was expecting the fly to catch that
[07:42] <Kilos> too busy again
[07:51] <Kilos> IT okes always seem busy
[07:51] <Kilos> mechanic drops tools at 5pm
[07:56] <magespawn> IT giys are usually the type that likes to learn and generally dislike sitting around doing nothing
[07:56] <magespawn> s/giys/guys
[07:57] <Kilos> ya always changing world
[07:58] <Kilos> so learnbing never stops
[07:58] <ThatGraemeGuy> morning peeps
[07:58] <Kilos> poor head
[07:58] <magespawn> for that matter IT girls too
[07:58] <Kilos> hi ThatGraemeGuy
[07:58] <magespawn> howdy ThatGraemeGuy
[08:03] <Kilos> hmm...
[08:10] <Kilos> magespawn, note theblazehen has disappeared
[08:10]  * Kilos wonders why
[08:11] <magespawn> maybe a server fell over
[08:11] <Kilos> months now
[08:12] <Kilos> not a good server
[08:22] <Kilos> http://mybroadband.co.za/news/telecoms/80529-telkoms-forced-adsl-price-cuts-isps-respond.html
[08:25] <Kilos> whew too much to read but sounds promising
[08:28] <magespawn> will go have a look
[08:31] <Kilos> as long as the cuts reach the end user thats great
[08:31] <Kilos> why cut prices to isp's if they dont pass it on
[08:34] <magespawn> the isp's will almost certainly cut their prices to remain competative
[08:34] <Kilos> lets hope
[08:35] <Kilos> massive fine though
[08:35] <Kilos> 200 mill
[08:35] <Kilos> whew
[08:35] <magespawn> give me 10% of that and i could set up my wireless service
[08:36] <Kilos> sigh
[08:37] <Kilos> providing a service is a good thing. they shouldnt make things so expensive or difficult
[08:37] <Kilos> one wifi tower at the top of the reserve will cover a massive area
[08:40] <Kilos> hiya maiatoday
[08:43] <maiatoday> hi Kilos
[09:27] <Vince-0> Kilos, the most important part on that article is the opening of naked DSL and IPC services to ISPs so there's direct competition on all levels. Telkom wholesale never really separated from their retail
[09:27] <Vince-0> I will believe it when I see it
[09:28] <Kilos> well we can only hope hey Vince-0
[09:29] <Vince-0> my boet has 100mbit fibre to his apartment in Aus - that is what I hope for, this other stuff is just playing catch up
[09:30] <Kilos> lekker
[09:36] <Kilos> you can get it here if you got bucks
[09:36] <Kilos> ask symmetria
[09:36] <Kilos> they dont play with the cost of laying fibre to you
[11:00] <Kilos> hmm... mazal looks like your friend didnt get something working
[11:00] <Kilos> maybe hasnt had time
[11:00] <Kilos> calls himself hecticza here
[11:00] <Kilos> with caps here and there
[11:17] <Kilos> hi nlsthzn
[11:22] <superfly> sorry, was busy interviewing someone
[11:22] <Kilos> np
[11:27] <nlsthzn> alo uncle Kilos and superfly :)
[11:27] <nlsthzn> I be doing that Buntu thing again :)
[11:27] <Kilos> yay well done neelsie
[11:27] <nlsthzn> now if the graphics would stop spazzing out I would be much happier
[11:28] <Kilos> 13.04?
[11:28] <nlsthzn> let me do that windows thing and restart
[11:29] <nlsthzn> nah, 12.04
[11:29] <nlsthzn> LTS FTW and all that
[11:33] <superfly> ohi nl<tab>
[11:33] <superfly> *sigh*
[11:33] <Kilos> wow i have no probs. what graphics thing nl
[11:33] <Kilos> hehe
[11:34] <Kilos> long reboot
[11:36] <Kilos> wow i have no probs. what graphics thing nlsthzn ?
[11:36] <Kilos> i did install gdm
[11:36] <Kilos> the lightdm always gave probs
[11:36] <nlsthzn> just some issues with windows when I maximized and minimized... sometimes they didn't come up or go down and other times when they came up it was just the frame wit the middle empty :p
[11:37] <Kilos> oh not 12.04
[11:37] <nlsthzn> can be some of the apps I installed or perhaps the graphics drivers... who knows :p
[11:37] <nlsthzn> yup 12.04.2
[11:38] <Kilos> oh that word windows through me
[11:38] <Kilos> you using lightdm
[11:38] <Kilos> the fly greeted you
[11:38] <nlsthzn> the default... but no issues with that... and now everything is smooth
[11:38] <nlsthzn> alo again superfly :)
[11:38] <Kilos> no man gdm much better
[11:38] <nlsthzn> why?
[11:39] <Kilos> no probs at all here
[11:39] <Kilos> quite boring actually
[11:39] <Kilos> never have to fix anything
[11:39] <nlsthzn> doubt my issues had anything to do with that :)
[11:40] <Kilos> what does google tell you
[11:40] <Kilos> maybe someone else has had same prob
[11:40] <nlsthzn> problem gone for now so I am not going to go chase it :p
[11:43] <nlsthzn> well, running the latest version of LibreOffice now and also installing the latest version of Gimp :)
[11:43] <nlsthzn> got to love them PPA's
[11:43] <Kilos> hehe ive always been told to stay away from them
[11:43] <Kilos> maybe to save data
[11:44] <tonberryE352> all glory to the PPAs!
[11:45] <Kilos> oh ya confluency what are you using if you dont like unity
[11:46] <confluency> Fluxbox.
[11:46] <Kilos> forgot to ask yesterday
[11:46] <confluency> I was using it before Unity happened, though.
[11:46] <Kilos> ah
[11:46] <confluency> My first Linux WM was Blackbox, so I kind of imprinted on it.
[11:46] <Kilos> unity aint bad
[11:47] <confluency> There's nothing wrong with PPAs, but there are bad PPAs.
[11:47] <Kilos> yeah we are creatures of habit
[11:47] <Kilos> i actually have come to like unity and kde
[11:48] <confluency> PPA with five related packages = good. PPA with a gajillion unrelated packages = bad. You can still install individual packages from those manually, though.
[11:48] <Kilos> but 12.04 unity not as fancy as 13.04
[11:48] <nlsthzn> that is why I try to stick to the actual devs PPA's if possible
[11:48] <confluency> I've always found KDE to be too heavy, and Unity is jut not what I want in an interface.
[11:48] <tonberryE352> when they start updating random things all over the place
[11:48] <tonberryE352> panic
[11:49] <Kilos> hehe
[11:49] <Kilos> lo inetpro
[11:50] <confluency> It's only really a problem if you upgrade a couple of times and then discover some cruft from a PPA you disabled long ago messing up your dependencies. It's pretty easy to restore things as long as you know which packages to revert, though.
[11:50] <confluency> Unfortunately there's no reliable identifier for the source of a package, so sometimes you have to go by name or minor version number to figure out where something came from.
[11:50] <superfly> hi nlsthzn :-)
[11:50] <superfly> and tonberryE352 and confluency
[11:51] <confluency> I only really had a problem once, and I cleaned it up after some googling. Now I don't add any huge PPAs.
[11:51] <confluency> Hi, superfly.
[11:51] <tonberryE352> hi
[11:53] <nlsthzn> before I run into issues like that I have again installed some or other OS :p
[11:53] <Kilos> lol
[11:54] <nlsthzn> oh and Libreoffice 4 is blazing fast... phew...
[11:55] <Kilos> is fluxbox just a gui?
[11:55] <confluency> It's a window manager.
[11:56] <confluency> It gives you a toolbar and a program menu and windows. :)
[11:56] <Kilos> i cant google what it is
[11:56] <Kilos> well my bot says she cant
[11:56] <confluency> Actually, that's pretty much everything that it gives you. 1) windows 2) a right-click menu 3) a toolbar 4) an optional slit for dockapps.
[11:56] <confluency> It's very minimalist.
[11:57] <Kilos> where do you get it from
[11:57] <Kilos> Maaz, google fluxbox
[11:57] <confluency> There's a package.
[11:57] <Maaz> Kilos: "Fluxbox" http://fluxbox.org/ :: "fluxbox.org - screenshots" http://fluxbox.org/screenshots/ :: "Fluxbox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluxbox :: "Fluxbox - ArchWiki" https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fluxbox :: "Fluxbox-wiki - Fluxbox-wiki" http://fluxbox-wiki.org/ :: "Fluxbox - Customize.org"
[11:57] <Maaz> http://customize.org/fluxbox :: "Fluxbox | Free Development software downloads at SourceForge.net" http://sourcefor…
[11:58] <Kilos> oh in the repos?
[11:58] <confluency> If you install it, also install fbautostart -- I'm not sure if it's an explicit dependency. That starts all the XDG autostart stuff.
[11:59] <confluency> It mostly works out of the box; there's just one hack you still need to add to make sure that the update manager delegates permissions correctly.\
[11:59] <confluency> You also need to fiddle around a bit to customise the menu to your liking, set wallpaper, etc..
[11:59] <confluency> But all the config files are plain text, which is nice.
[12:00] <Kilos> so then the whole unity gui is gone?
[12:00] <confluency> Yes. It's like running GNOME or KDE instead of Unity.
[12:00] <Kilos> oh ok ill have a look ty
[12:01] <Kilos> maybe aptitude will sort it all out
[12:01] <confluency> Yes, you just have to install the fluxbox package. And fbautostart, if it isn't installed automatically.
[12:02] <Kilos> cool ty
[12:03] <confluency> It's not a whole desktop environment, like GNOME, so you can run it together with other stuff, like a file manager (liek Nautilus or ROX), but I've never done that.  You can do that if you want icons on the desktop and stuff.
[12:04] <Kilos> ok one last question will 12.04 give me the choice what i want to boot from still
[12:04] <Kilos> in case i dont like it
[12:04] <confluency> Yes, that's worked since forever. :)
[12:04] <Kilos> cool
[12:04] <confluency> Oh, in 12.04 it might not use fbautostart from its startup file automatically, so you'll need to put that in.
[12:05] <confluency> (That's to start stuff like Network Manager when you log in.)
[12:05] <Kilos> yes i see in synaptic that fbautostart is not one of the install packages with it\
[12:05] <confluency> Cool. So you should install that as well.
[12:06] <Kilos> and my nm autoconnects because of a script i added to make it work
[12:06] <confluency> Yeah, but you still have to start the actual applet.
[12:06] <Kilos> nm was a big prob here with 12.04
[12:07] <Kilos> ah
[12:07] <Kilos> oh well here goes
[12:08] <confluency> So after you've logged into Fluxbox, edit ~/.fluxbox/startup -- that's where you put everything that you want to happen when you start Fluxbox. You need to add 'fbautostart &' if it isn't there already -- but *before* the last line, which starts fluxbox.
[12:08] <Kilos> oh my
[12:08] <confluency> Anything before that last 'exec fluxbox' line needs to have an ampersand (&) at the end, so that it can be put in the background, otherwise nothing will work.
[12:08] <Kilos> lemme copy that place to edit
[12:09] <confluency> Once you have that in there, if you exit and come back in you should have all your normal applets.
[12:09] <Kilos> whew
[12:09] <Kilos> ok
[12:09] <confluency> (Leave out the quotes. :) )
[12:09] <Kilos> ya ive learned that darem by now
[12:09] <Kilos> ty
[12:10] <confluency> If you right-click on the desktop you'll get a menu with programs. You can customise that later if you want. That's how you launch stuff.
[12:10] <confluency> But you can also type alt-f2 to get a "run program" window, if you like that sort of thing.
[12:11] <Kilos> oh so it doesnt show a launcher
[12:11] <confluency> So while you're in that startup file, I would also add: /usr/lib/policykit-1-gnome/polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1 &
[12:12] <confluency> Nope. The toolbar is just for switching workspaces, showing windows and status icons.
[12:12] <confluency> (That line is the magic hack to fix update notifier.)
[12:12] <Kilos> whew you do all this with every upgrade?
[12:13] <confluency> No, nothing happens to the file when you upgrade.
[12:13] <confluency> The latest version of the file actually puts in fbautostart for you, but I think that's a recent development.
[12:13] <Kilos> oh only clean installs
[12:13] <confluency> Yeah, and I never do that.
[12:14] <Kilos> i hope i like it, lotsa work
[12:14] <confluency> Heh.
[12:14] <confluency> It's very, very sparse, so your mileage may vary. ;)
[12:14] <Kilos> mileage?
[12:15] <confluency> "your mileage may vary" is an expression which means that your experience of something may be different to mine.
[12:15] <Kilos> oh ok
[12:15] <Kilos> hehe well i wont know if i dont try it
[12:15] <Trixar_za> Comes for when they sold cars. The fuel efficiency was based on distance and driving style
[12:15] <Kilos> no one else here uses it i think
[12:16] <confluency> I've tried AwesomeWM a bunch of times, and never got into it.
[12:16] <Kilos> ohi Trixar_za
[12:18] <Kilos> Maaz, is http://za.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ down
[12:18] <Maaz> Kilos: No, it's just you
[12:18] <Kilos> oh my
[12:19] <Kilos> what does this mean
[12:19] <Kilos> E: Failed to fetch http://za.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/libi/libid3tag/libid3tag0_0.15.1b-10build2_i386.deb: Could not connect to <IP_ADDRESS>:8123 (<IP_ADDRESS>). - connect (111: Connection refused)
[12:19] <Kilos> all the packages show the same
[12:19] <tonberryE352> does za.archive.ubuntu.com still exist?
[12:20] <tonberryE352> or are you doing something strange to it?
[12:20] <Kilos> nope i did sudo aptitude install fluxbox and the fb thing
[12:21] <Kilos> it wanted to fetch 3.m os packages
[12:21] <Kilos> 3.5
[12:21] <tonberryE352> you running a proxy of some sort?
[12:21] <Kilos> nope
[12:21] <Kilos> oh my
[12:22] <Kilos> someone got me to add something to do with proxy
[12:22] <Kilos> whew
[12:22] <Kilos> lemme see if synaptic also has probs
[12:24] <Kilos> ya connection refused
[12:25] <Kilos> that proxy thing was supposed to save on opening websites or something
[12:25] <Kilos> whew
[12:27] <mazal> Bye almal
[12:29] <Trixar_za> Hi Kilos
[12:30] <Kilos> yay set to no proxy and here we go
[12:36] <magespawn> afternoon all
[12:37] <Kilos> hi magespawn
[12:37] <Trixar_za> Afternoon magespawn
[12:38] <Kilos> ty tonberryE352
[12:38] <Trixar_za> Mind you, I'm starting to accept the universal greeting of "Good Morning"
[12:38] <Kilos> lol
[12:39] <confluency> Kilos: it looks like you were trying to use a proxy running locally on your machine -- except that it wasn't running.
[12:40] <Trixar_za> http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
[12:40] <Kilos> confluency, i dunno what it was. the pro knows more but i wont go that route again
[12:41] <Kilos> was supposed to only work with browsers i think
[12:42] <Kilos> if tonberryE352 hadnt said anything i would have clean installed again
[12:42] <Kilos> hehe
[12:42]  * Kilos bows to tonberryE352
[12:42] <tonberryE352> pleasure
[12:43] <Kilos> i think i made the mistake of ticking the apply system wide button
[12:43] <Squirm> hi
[12:43] <Kilos> hi Squirm
[12:43] <Squirm> Trixar_za: your ZNV on our network is weird
[12:44] <Squirm> s/ZNV/ZNC
[12:44] <Squirm> your nick starts with ~, as well as it doesn't show that you change your nick
[12:44] <Kilos> oh ya Squirm did you ever speak to him about hosting the bot
[12:45] <Trixar_za> It does that. I think it's a bug. Reconnecting the ZNC bot seems to fix it
[12:45]  * Squirm shrugs
[12:52] <Kilos> ok i go try fluxbox
[12:52] <Kilos> wbb hopefully
[12:54] <Kilos> not now too much to close and movie half way through
[12:54] <Kilos> sigh
[12:54] <nlsthzn> uncle Kilos ... you on a DE quest again ? :p
[12:54] <Kilos> hahaha just looking nlsthzn
[12:54] <nlsthzn> its free so way not :)
[12:54] <Kilos> i like unity but maybe fluxbox is better/faster
[12:54] <Kilos> ya
[12:55] <Kilos> also then when peeps say they are using such and such you arent totally ignorant
[12:55]  * Squirm pulls apart a laptop
[12:55] <Squirm> bbl
[12:55] <nlsthzn> should be as it is a lighter DE ... very light...
[12:56] <Squirm> and Kilos, speak to who?
[12:56] <Kilos> Trixar_za,  squirm
[12:56] <Kilos> about hosting QA
[12:56] <Kilos> you forgot
[12:56] <Kilos> hehe
[12:56] <Trixar_za> Oo
[12:56] <Kilos> np she works here but only when im online
[12:57] <Kilos> and ibid bot Trixar_za
[12:57] <Kilos> one night we were looking for a host so everyone could use her
[12:58] <Kilos> you can see here on ##kilos
[12:58] <Kilos> upgraded version of maaz
[13:01] <confluency> Well, Fluxbox is definitely faster.
[13:01] <Kilos> so thats a + then
[13:22] <magespawn> Kilos: how many os' have you tried?
[13:23] <Kilos> hmm...
[13:23] <Kilos> all the sucks except 8
[13:23] <Kilos> all the buntus
[13:23] <Kilos> didnt like x or l
[13:24] <Kilos> um
[13:24] <Kilos> the thing the monkey uses
[13:24] <Kilos> and tinycorelinux
[13:28] <magespawn> cool Kilos
[13:29] <magespawn> os' expert for sure\
[13:30] <Kilos> lol i forget them man
[13:30] <Kilos> must be open in front of me
[14:11] <Kilos> grrr power cut
[14:37] <inetpro> good morning Kilos
[14:38] <inetpro> oh and hello everyone else
[14:40] <Kilos> hi inetpro
[14:40] <Kilos> gonna try fluxbox maybe tonight
[14:41] <Kilos> oh ya magespawn and i looked at the thing the weed uses
[14:42] <Kilos> didnt know what to do
[14:42] <Kilos> hehe
[14:42] <magespawn> hey inetpro
[14:43] <magespawn> Kilos: can you remember what it was that tumbleweed uses?
[14:43] <Kilos> xmonad
[14:43] <magespawn> never even heard of it
[14:43] <Kilos> something like that
[14:43] <Kilos> ask the pro he will member
[14:43] <Kilos> all text
[14:43] <Kilos> can make more desktops also with text
[14:43] <Kilos> whew
[14:44] <Kilos> no gui
[14:44] <magespawn> that is just the windows manager though
[14:44] <magespawn> here is the link http://xmonad.org/
[14:45] <Kilos> i gave up after 1 hour
[14:45] <Kilos> you gotta even tell nm to connect from cli
[14:45] <Kilos> whew
[14:46] <Kilos> did a quick aptitude remove there
[14:52] <inetpro> Kilos: ek dink jou memory is beter as myne
[14:52] <Kilos> ai!
[15:00] <tumbleweed> tiling window managers aren't for everyone :)
[15:00] <tumbleweed> apparently awesome is a fairly nice tiling window manager
[15:01] <magespawn> would not even know if i had used one, so probably haven't
[15:02] <tumbleweed> xmonad is one
[15:03] <magespawn> yup busy reading the site
[15:03] <magespawn> i like the idea that it manages the windows size and placement etc
[15:04] <Kilos> hi tumbleweed
[15:05] <magespawn> http://www.haskell.org/wikiupload/a/aa/Screen-triplehead-galois.jpg what kind of keyboard is that? nice screen setup
[15:21] <tumbleweed> magespawn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_%28keyboard%29
[15:22] <magespawn> ty
[15:24] <magespawn> would take a little time to learn but then ...
[15:30] <kbmonkey> hello
[15:30] <Kilos> hello kbmonkey
[15:41] <kbmonkey> how goes it all man
[15:46] <Kilos> we alive kbmonkey
[15:46] <Kilos> yo JoTraGo
[15:47] <Kilos> wassup by you
[15:48] <Kilos> meeting monday night hey
[15:48] <Kilos> oh ya you saw the list
[15:52] <kbmonkey> I saw thanks Kilos
[16:01] <magespawn> later all home time
[16:01] <Kilos> go safe magespawn
[16:01] <kbmonkey> goobye
[16:22] <Kilos> fluxbox here i come
[16:23] <Kilos> wbb hopefully
[16:31] <Kilos> whew confluency at least the nm connect script still works
[16:33] <Kilos> now just gotta find the nm applet
[16:33] <Kilos> once ive found where the stick is
[16:33] <Kilos> hehe
[16:59] <Kilos> eish no bloep
[17:10] <Kilos> hmm...
[17:19]  * nlsthzn has had enough of puters and interwebs... night all
[17:20] <Kilos> night nlsthzn
[17:20] <Kilos> sleep tight
[17:43] <superfly> It's on like Donkey-Kong!
[17:44] <Kilos> your internet superfly ?
[17:53] <confluency> Kilos: if you add that fbautostart line and log out and log back in again you should have applets back.
[17:54] <confluency> Oh, except the sound applet, which you have to add separately: 'gnome-sound-applet &'
[17:55] <Kilos> lol i couldnt see my flash drive with the instructions on confluency  so ive come back to unity and edited the file from here
[17:55] <Kilos> hope it will work
[17:55] <confluency> It will. :)
[17:55] <Kilos> yay
[17:55] <confluency> Just don't forget all the &
[17:56] <Kilos> and will i have sound alerts in xchat or will i need to use the external thing
[17:56] <Kilos> all of them
[17:56] <Kilos> or only the 2 lines i add
[17:58] <Kilos> i added fbautostart& and /usr/lib/policykit-1-gnome/polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1 & confluency
[17:59] <Kilos> must i add more & somewhere else too
[18:00] <confluency> Nope. As long as you have & at the end of every line where you launch something before the final launch of fluxbox.
[18:02] <Kilos> and the sound applet also to be added in there too?
[18:02] <confluency> Yes.
[18:02] <Kilos> cool tyy
[18:02] <confluency> That's the volume control.
[18:02] <Kilos> ya
[18:02] <Kilos> i go nano some more
[18:06] <Kilos> sorry confluency does it use the x goody like xubuntu?
[18:06] <Kilos> cfce
[18:06] <confluency> The what now?
[18:06] <Kilos> xfce
[18:06] <confluency> No, that's a different window manager.
[18:06] <confluency> Fluxbox is the same category of thing as XFCE.
[18:07] <Kilos> ah lets hope it dont go the same route then
[18:07] <Kilos> i had no sound with any of the x goodies
[18:07] <Kilos> ill have a look ty
[18:08] <superfly> Kilos: yes
[18:08] <Kilos> yay superfly what happened
[18:08] <superfly> I bought a new router
[18:09] <Kilos> ah well wb
[18:09] <Kilos> and maybe get some lightening protection
[18:10] <Kilos> dunno if they will actually help but ya
[18:20] <magespawn> evening all
[18:20] <Kilos> hi magespawn
[18:20] <Kilos> the fly net fixed
[18:20] <Kilos> so no excuse to miss meet monday
[18:20] <Kilos> yay
[18:20] <magespawn> so i see, good news
[18:21] <magespawn> superfly what router did you get?
[18:24] <magespawn> what is the specific function in linux that allows me the rename a file with the extension that is the type of code in that file? eg .js .py .html etc. windows has a hissy only likes .txt
[18:25] <superfly> TRENDnet TEW-718BRM
[18:25] <Kilos> right click rename
[18:25] <superfly> magespawn: ^^
[18:25] <superfly> magespawn: the cheapest I could find
[18:25] <Kilos> oh sorry
[18:25] <superfly> takealot.com = R400
[18:25] <magespawn> or is that a function of the program creating the file ?
[18:25] <magespawn> superfly capabilities?
[18:25] <superfly> magespawn: there's nothing stopping you naming files on either Windows or Linux
[18:26] <superfly> magespawn: 150Mbps wireless router
[18:26] <Trixar_za> Well, unless you hide extensions in Windows
[18:26] <magespawn> nice
[18:26] <superfly> which is Windows' default behaviour... security!
[18:26] <magespawn> Trixar_za: which is done by default
[18:26] <magespawn> snap
[18:27] <Trixar_za> I always turn disable it. I know quite a few malware that uses that behavior to it's benefit
[18:27] <magespawn> superfly i thought takealot was one of the more expensive places
[18:27] <Trixar_za> s/turn//
[18:27] <magespawn> Trixar_za: indeed
[18:28] <superfly> magespawn: not at all
[18:28] <magespawn> i buy at uniterm dbg.co.za
[18:29] <magespawn> but have not checked router prices in ages
[18:37] <magespawn> superfly that looks like a very good price
[18:45] <superfly> anyone know where I can get a quote for some stuff from? I need it for insurance?
[18:47] <superfly> also, where I can buy one of those HP Microservers
[18:51] <tumbleweed> superfly: any online store?
[18:52] <superfly> tumbleweed: I don't know if that'll suffice - I can try though
[18:56] <magespawn> i can draw up quotes for you
[18:57] <magespawn> just email me list with specs etc
[18:57] <magespawn> no obligation of course
[18:59] <superfly> magespawn: my idea is to get a quote, let the assessor tell me if my quote is good or bad, get the money from insurance, and then buy 1 or 2 of those HP Proliant MicroServers
[19:00] <superfly> then I'm going to learn about LVM
[19:03] <superfly> ah, looks like prophecy.co.za can give me a quote
[19:04] <tumbleweed> superfly: pricecheck.co.za lists a fpew places selling them
[19:08] <superfly> tumbleweed: heh. I can get one for R1800 off myhp.co.za - cheaper than the cheapest on pricecheck.co.za
[19:08] <superfly> or used to be able to, according to their search
[19:08] <tumbleweed> ah, cool
[19:09] <Kilos> night all sleep tight
[19:10] <magespawn> that is a good price, that is about what i would pay for them
[19:21] <superfly> Trixar_za: who can tell me anything about Intel processors?
[19:21] <superfly> ag, not just Trixar_za, also tumbleweed
[19:23] <Trixar_za> lol
[19:23] <Trixar_za> mis-tab?
[19:24] <superfly> Trixar_za: well, I wanted to ask you too, but yeah, sorta
[19:25] <superfly> I am so disconnected from hardware these days
[19:25] <tumbleweed> superfly: what about them?
[19:25]  * tumbleweed doesn't pay much attention, either
[19:26] <Tonberry_> they go fast
[19:26] <superfly> bwahaha
[19:26] <superfly> thanks Tonberry_
[19:26] <superfly> any recommendations on what processor I should get, one that my insurance won't balk at too much
[19:26] <Tonberry_> they new intel range kinda snuck up on me as well
[19:26] <Tonberry_> dont really know how they perform relative to the old range
[19:27] <tumbleweed> much of a muchness, I'd say
[19:27] <Tonberry_> http://www.cpubenchmark.net/
[19:27] <Tonberry_> good place to figure out what is going on in the market
[19:27]  * superfly just selected a couple of i5's since that seems to be mid-range these days
[19:28] <Tonberry_> few months ago i would have recommended http://www.wootware.co.za/intel-core-i5-3570k-3-4ghz-lga1155-quad-core-ivy-bridge-cpu.html
[19:28] <superfly> Tonberry_: ah, that looks like what I've selected
[19:31] <Tonberry_> now it seems that the i5 4570 could be a better bet
[19:31] <Tonberry_> very slightly faster and slightly cheaper
[19:31] <Tonberry_> but new and unproven
[19:31] <Trixar_za> Oo
[19:32] <Trixar_za> That sounds good on all fronts
[19:41] <magespawn> good night all
[19:51] <tumbleweed> sheesh. R2k5 for a CPU is high
[19:52]  * tumbleweed tends to stick to cheaper CPUs
[19:52] <tumbleweed> but my desktop has an i7, so maybe I'm lying
[19:52] <Tonberry_> that appears to be the case...
[22:05] <inetpro> fp
[22:06] <inetpro> good night