[00:00] <wallyworld> but the whole method can be refactored since it duplicates the override stuff
[00:00] <wallyworld> not just for unknown files
[00:01] <wallyworld> the policy can be got : override_policy = self.policy.archive.getOverridePolicy()
[00:01] <wallyworld> and then the adaptor can be used
[00:01] <StevenK> wallyworld: Approved
[00:01] <wallyworld> thans
[04:39] <StevenK> wallyworld, wgrant: https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/send-host-header-during-getremotebug/+merge/132447
[04:39] <wgrant> StevenK: The Host header doesn't work like that
[04:40] <StevenK> wgrant: Yes it does? We need to instruct the remote site which one we're talking to.
[04:41] <wgrant> +        return {'User-agent': LP_USER_AGENT, 'Host': self.baseurl}
[04:41] <wgrant> I spy with my little eye a contradictory statement
[04:42] <wgrant> (host != URL)
[04:42] <StevenK> Bleh
[04:46] <StevenK> wgrant: Changes pushing, thanks.
[04:49] <StevenK> Diff updated.
[04:50] <wgrant> Thanks
[05:39] <wallyworld> wgrant: since you ran the queries on DF, if you get a moment at some point, could you look at this for me? https://code.launchpad.net/~wallyworld/launchpad/person-index-timeout-931771/+merge/132446
[05:40] <wgrant> wallyworld: Sure
[05:41] <wallyworld> thanks, no hurry
[05:41] <StevenK> Blink
[05:41] <StevenK> db-devel died
[05:41] <wallyworld> what?
[05:45] <StevenK> subunit corruption, looks like
[05:48] <wallyworld> \o/
[05:56] <wallyworld> wgrant: can tables be created live with no locks? i can't see why not
[05:57] <wgrant> wallyworld: Only if they have no foreign keys
[05:58] <wallyworld> it does, but the table will be empty
[05:58] <wgrant> Adding a foreign key creates an internal trigger on both ends, which requires an access exclusive lock
[05:58] <wallyworld> surely only for a micro second
[05:58] <wgrant> Right, as with most ALTER TABLEs it's basically instantaneous
[05:59] <wallyworld> but we still cannot create live?
[05:59] <wgrant> Not without delaying things for maximum_txn_length * 2
[05:59] <wallyworld> it would be no worse than may of our transactions
[05:59] <wgrant> the ALTER TABLE will request an exclusive lock on the table
[05:59] <wgrant> this will wait around until all existing transactions finish
[06:00] <wgrant> the pending, ungranted lock will block any new transactions that want to use the table
[06:00] <wgrant> Once all the existing transactions finish, the lock can be taken and then released
[06:00] <wgrant> But we have lots of long transactions, so this could block everything for minutes or even longer
[06:00] <StevenK> And given FDT is not really an issue
[06:00] <wallyworld> ok, FDT it is
[06:01] <StevenK> What new table?
[06:01] <wallyworld> for recording the latest published sources
[06:01] <wallyworld> source packages
[06:01] <StevenK> BTF for source packages?
[06:01] <wallyworld> BTF?
[06:02] <StevenK> BugTaskFlat
[06:02] <wallyworld> well, not really
[06:02] <wallyworld> but it is a denorm of the data model for reporting
[06:02] <wallyworld> it will be maintained by a garbo frequently job initially
[06:03] <wallyworld> the business logic changes to consume it are trivial, and actually reduce LOC I think
[09:34] <stub> wallyworld: You are missing foreign key definitions in that MP. Is that deliberate or an oversight?
[09:34] <wallyworld> stub: deliberate
[09:34] <wallyworld> it's only a reporting table
[09:34] <wallyworld> so i didn't want to do anything to slow down performance
[09:35] <wallyworld> AFAIK, BugTaskFlat has no FKs also
[09:35] <wallyworld> bt i could be wrong
[09:35] <stub> Yeah, but it is maintained entirely by triggers to enforce referential integrity
[09:35] <wallyworld> i'm happy to add them if they are required
[09:36] <wallyworld> do the triggers even check for missing references?
[09:36] <stub> wallyworld: They are not required, but leaving them out is a potential foot gun
[09:36] <wallyworld> eg with BugTaskFlat, what happens if a referrenfed object is deleted?
[09:36] <wallyworld> i don't think that is caught
[09:36] <stub> It should be
[09:37] <wallyworld> should be or is?
[09:37] <wallyworld> i'll add the FK references to the mp though
[09:37] <stub> it should be, as that is what was supposed to happen when I reviewed it IIRC
[09:37] <wallyworld> o
[09:37] <stub> Otherwise we would be giving out incorrect results (the footgun)
[09:37] <wallyworld> ok
[09:38] <stub> So here for instance, missing FK to the person table could mean packages get lost when a person merge happens.
[09:38] <wallyworld>  so i just need to update the table definition to say REFERENCES foo, nothing else?
[09:38] <stub> Declaring them 'on delete cascade' may be useful, or may be a big problem
[09:38] <stub> wallyworld: yes
[09:39] <stub> oh, haven't finished looking at it yet :)
[09:39] <wallyworld> ok
[09:43] <stub> wallyworld: Yeah, all looks fine apart from the FK issue
[09:43] <wallyworld> stub: what about the archive.purpose column?
[09:43] <wallyworld> which is an enum
[09:43] <wallyworld> do i need a fk there too?
[09:43] <stub> wallyworld: If they are a problem, we can leave them out but we have to think hard about potential problems
[09:44] <stub> wallyworld: no
[09:44] <wallyworld> bah, archive_purpose
[09:44] <wallyworld> just about to push changes
[09:44] <wallyworld> thanks for looking
[09:48] <stub> And now I read your statement about FKs in the MP :-/
[09:51] <wallyworld> stub: changes pushed
[09:51] <wgrant> stub, wallyworld: That table definitely needs foreign keys
[09:52] <wallyworld> they are there now :-)
[09:52] <wgrant> BugTaskFlat doesn't, since it's maintained entirely inline by triggers on FKed tables
[09:52] <wallyworld> so i will need to update the person merge code when i do the devel work
[09:52] <wgrant> And there's a one-to-one relationship between BugTask and BugTaskFlat
[09:52] <wgrant> wallyworld: Possibly
[09:53] <wgrant> wallyworld: Person merge will crash (and tests will fail) if you add a new person FK that's involved in a unique constraint
[09:53] <stub> oh, archive_purpose needs to remain in sync with Archive.purpose?
[09:53] <wallyworld> yes
[09:53] <wgrant> Archive.purpose doesn't change
[09:54] <wgrant> wallyworld: Should dateuploaded and publication be NOT NULL?
[09:54] <wgrant> Also, that table name is far too generic
[09:54] <wallyworld> wgrant: publication is a reference to SPPH
[09:54] <wgrant> wallyworld: Sure
[09:54] <wgrant> It still needs to be NOT NULL
[09:54] <wallyworld> oh, i meant to put not null
[09:54] <wgrant> It also can't be the PK
[09:55] <wgrant> As it's mutable
[09:55] <wallyworld> i thought primary keys were automatically not null
[09:55] <wgrant> Well, it could be the PK, but Storm will kill you in your sleep if you try to change it
[09:55] <wallyworld> ah, right. i was thinking the pib reference would not change
[09:55] <wallyworld> publication i mean
[09:55] <wallyworld> but it can of course
[09:56] <wallyworld> i'd add a surrogate key
[09:56] <wgrant> The natural key is (person, archive, distroseries)
[09:56] <wallyworld> which person?
[09:56] <wgrant> That's the question
[09:56] <wallyworld> creator?
[09:57] <wgrant> I'm not quite sure that this schema does what we need; we'll probably want a complete garbo+browser implementation reviewed before this landss
[09:57] <wallyworld> i did the natural key as spn, archive, distroseries
[09:57] <wgrant> Er, yeah, spn needs to be in there as well
[09:57] <wgrant> But person obviously has to be too
[09:57] <wallyworld> not obvious to me :-)
[09:57] <wgrant> Hm?
[09:57] <wallyworld> since i don;t know soyuz that well
[09:57] <wgrant> Why not?
[09:58] <wgrant> We care about the person's latest package
[09:58] <wgrant> s
[09:58] <wallyworld> i thought only one person would publish a spn, archive, distroseries
[09:58] <stub> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1323048/ enforces the purpose can't get changed on archive
[09:58] <wgrant> wallyworld: Only one person's publication will be current, sure
[09:58] <wgrant> But this shows superseded ones too
[09:58] <wallyworld> thanks stub, will add that
[09:58] <wallyworld> ah, ok
[09:59] <wallyworld> so creator i suppose is the person to use
[09:59] <wgrant> Well
[09:59] <stub> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1323050/ is probably better, or it will be a PITA to change the purpose of an archive
[09:59] <wgrant> It probably needs to be both
[09:59] <StevenK> stub: We never want to change the purpose of an archive.
[10:00] <StevenK> It is by all accounts immutable
[10:00] <wgrant> Right, archive purposes cannot change without manual SQL
[10:00] <wgrant> I don't think one has ever changed
[10:00] <wgrant> It doesn't make sense
[10:00] <wallyworld> stub: is the preference to add constraints inline or use an alter table?
[10:00] <wgrant> If one wants to change, we have bigger problems
[10:00] <stub> So probably no need for the extra index and multi column FK constraint
[10:00] <wgrant> This is a cache table that is cheap to regenerate and unproblematic if it breaks
[10:00] <stub> wallyworld: technically it makes no difference. I find it all inline more readable myself.
[10:01] <wallyworld> np, thanks
[10:02] <wallyworld> stub: with the comments, there's a comments.sql - does that get rolled up at some point?
[10:02] <StevenK> comments.sql no longer gets applied to production, either
[10:02] <deryck> czajkowski, did the lp session get dropped today?
[10:03] <stub> wallyworld: The comments should go in comments.sql sorry.
[10:03] <czajkowski> deryck: it did, there was no other sign ups and didnt want to waste the lP dev time
[10:03] <wallyworld> stub: ok, i saw some other patches contained them, so wasn;t sure
[10:03] <deryck> czajkowski, ah, ok.  Thanks for putting those sessions together.
[10:04] <czajkowski> no worires thanks for coming ;)
[10:04] <stub> yeah, and your question made me question that.
[10:04] <wallyworld> stub: i thought it might be like patches - at some point, a rollup is done if you know what i mean
[10:04] <wallyworld> so add everything to the patch, incl comments
[10:04] <stub> yeah, but we haven't written any code to do that rollup
[10:05]  * stub thinks
[10:05] <wallyworld> ok, will just add to comments.sql then
[10:05] <stub> wallyworld: nah
[10:05] <stub> wallyworld: leave them where they are. The rollup will happen
[10:05] <wallyworld> ok
[10:06] <stub> I should apply comments.sql to production and then nuke it so I don't confuse myself again
[10:06] <wallyworld> wgrant: i'll add both creator and maintainer to the natural key for now and we can rethink before landing
[10:07] <wgrant> The schema will likely need to evolve once we discover that the code cannot use it
[10:07] <stub> reading scrollback, the natural key is complex enough to warrent just using an 'id' serial column
[10:08] <wallyworld> yeah, adding
[10:08] <wallyworld> i never use natural key as pk
[10:08] <wallyworld> i only ever add a constraint to enforce it
[10:09] <wallyworld> i mistakenly thought i could use the publication reference as the pk, thinking there was a 1-1 relationship
[10:09] <wgrant> This table will never be referenced in an FK, so a natural key makes a reasonable amount of sense, but it's not going to run off the end of a 32-bit int any time soon, so it doesn't matter much either way
[10:09] <wgrant> But we should avoid surrogate keys when we can :)
[10:09] <wallyworld> i disagree :-)
[10:10] <wgrant> Ah, so it was you who designed branchrevision :P
[10:10] <wallyworld> surrogate keys form the basis of good db design
[10:10] <wgrant> And oauthnonce
[10:10] <wallyworld> not for join tables necessarily
[10:10] <wallyworld> but for straight up entity tables, yes
[10:10] <wgrant> Surrogate keys for things that need to be referenced by FKs, sure
[10:11] <wgrant> This isn't an entity table
[10:11] <wgrant> As such
[10:11] <wallyworld> sure
[10:11] <wallyworld> what would you prefer the table name to be?
[10:11] <wgrant> Something involving person, sourcepackagerelease, and cache, probably.
[10:12] <wgrant> LatestPublishedReleases doesn't mean anything
[10:12] <wgrant> What do we do when we want a table showing the latest releases for a product, or binarypackagereleases, or...
[10:12] <wallyworld> shouldn't the table name contain 'latest'?
[10:12] <wgrant> Probably
[10:12] <wallyworld> i thought all releases went into spph
[10:12] <wallyworld> and spr
[10:13] <wgrant> Source package releases go into SPR and SPPH
[10:13] <wgrant> Binary package release don't
[10:13] <wgrant> Product releases don't
[10:13] <wallyworld> i didn't know there were any other kinds
[10:13] <wgrant> Because they're not source package releases :)
[10:13] <wallyworld> ok, i know that *now* :-)
[10:13] <wallyworld> remember, i am a soyuz virgin
[10:13] <wgrant> Product releases aren't Soyuz
[10:14] <wgrant> They're Registry
[10:14] <wgrant> :)
[10:14] <wallyworld> well, clearly i have a lot to learn in this domain area
[10:18] <wallyworld> stub: ignoring the tablename etc, is this correct for creating the surrogate id? https://pastebin.canonical.com/77517/
[10:20] <wgrant> "id serial PRIMARY KEY"
[10:20] <wgrant> is all you need
[10:21] <wgrant> It will autocreate the sequence etc
[10:22] <wgrant> wallyworld: ^^
[10:22] <wallyworld> ok
[10:23] <wallyworld> was the stuff i used just old code?
[10:23] <wgrant> That's probably how they appear in dumps
[10:23] <wgrant> serial maps to that
[10:23] <wallyworld> ok
[10:24] <wallyworld> i looked at our sql files though
[10:24] <wgrant> But serial has been around forever. Doing it manually is not so much "old" as "positively ancient"
[10:24] <wgrant> The base schema? That's pg_dump output
[10:24] <wgrant> Not manually written
[10:24] <wallyworld> not sure where i found it now, probably
[15:55] <sinzui> jcsackett, do you have time to review https://code.launchpad.net/~sinzui/launchpad/reimport-inactive-templates/+merge/132421
[15:55] <jcsackett> sinzui: sure.
[16:08] <jcsackett> sinzui: looks good, just want to make sure that the first check returning `entry` if true and others returnin None is intentional?
[16:09] <sinzui> yes, because we do not want to tamper with it
[16:09] <jcsackett> sinzui: ok, that's what i thought, but i figured i would double check.
[16:10] <jcsackett> sinzui: r=me.
[16:10] <sinzui> thank you
[16:52] <czajkowski> cjwatson: people think you sleep! little do they know!
[17:37] <sinzui> abentley, I think your PRF bug and my person merge bug can be fixed in the same branch
[18:49] <abentley> sinzui: Mine's already landing via EC2.
[18:49] <sinzui> excellent
[18:49] <sinzui> I am moving SELECT to the script group so that no script needs basic access
[18:50] <sinzui> I will resolve conflicts with your branch
[18:50] <abentley> sinzui: thanks.
[19:39] <jcsackett> sinzui: does the db buildbot failure prevent regular devel landings? pqm is yelling about my commit msg not satisfying the testfix requirement but it doesn't look like we should need one...
[19:54] <sinzui> jcsackett, one failure breaks both. You need to land a fix correct builder or force a build for spurious
[19:54] <jcsackett> sinzui: ah. for some reason i thought they were separate.
[20:07] <sinzui> jcsackett, Do you have time to review a branch https://code.launchpad.net/~sinzui/launchpad/merge-db-permissions/+merge/132615
[20:08] <jcsackett> sinzui: looking now.
[20:10] <jcsackett> sinzui: r=me.
[20:11] <sinzui> thank you
[20:48] <abentley> jcsackett: Could you please review https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/launchpad/fix-assignment-list/+merge/132621 ?
[20:49] <jcsackett> abentley: sure.
[20:50] <jcsackett> abentley: that was short. :-) r=me.
[20:50] <abentley> jcsackett: Thanks.
[20:50] <abentley> jcsackett: If only all critical bugs were so simple to fix :-)
[20:50] <jcsackett> abentley: i hear that.


[00:06] <hamitron> grrrr, locked out now for some reason
[00:09] <Azelphur> hamitron: debugging obsfucated code is fun :D
[00:14] <hamitron> :)
[01:05] <hamitron> sddfkljhsdaldfhnasdnkjn
[01:05] <HazRPG> hamitron: keyboard test?
[01:06] <hamitron> no, just in a bad mood
[01:06] <hamitron> was that or the mouse was gonna meet the wall
[01:07] <hamitron> just had cops round, so kinda hyped up
[01:07] <HazRPG> hamitron: :o! What happened?!
[01:08] <hamitron> sisters mobile is still registered at this address, and she had to phone the police because of her bf beating her (again)
[01:08] <HazRPG> seems someone was talking abut TuxGuitar earlier! I use that!
[01:08] <HazRPG> hamitron: ouch :(
[01:08] <hamitron> don't need them calling around, not even knowing the name of who called
[01:09] <hamitron> really high stress
[01:09] <HazRPG> can imagine!
[01:09] <hamitron> once they confirmed it was her, and we gave the other address, they won't even contact us to let us know she is safe
[01:10] <gordonjcp> hamitron: not wonderful
[01:10] <hamitron> lucky, this time he hadn't broken her phone
[01:10] <hamitron> so we could contact her
[01:10] <hamitron> but last time her phone was smashed and we were in the dark
[01:11] <hamitron> cba to fix my vps I broke now
[01:11] <hamitron> so just gonna try chill
[02:26] <HazRPG> hamitron: play starcraft 2 with me and my mate :D
[02:31] <hamitron> HazRPG: don't own it
[02:31] <hamitron> :)
[02:31] <hamitron> but ty for offer
[02:32] <hamitron> I got a trial key for steam, but it is a huge download
[02:32] <hamitron> so not bothered
[02:35] <HazRPG> hamitron: new xkcd is in 3D!!!!!
[02:35] <HazRPG> :o!!!!!!!!!
[02:35] <HazRPG> this is FREAKY!
[02:38] <hamitron> xkcd?
[02:38] <HazRPG> hamitron: .... your kidding right?
[02:38] <hamitron> no...
[02:38] <HazRPG> hamitron: hit it! http://xkcd.com
[02:38] <HazRPG> web comic for geeks :)
[02:39] <HazRPG> so epic!
[02:39] <hamitron> I am not a geek ;)
[02:40] <HazRPG> hamitron: lies ;)
[02:40] <hamitron> I just never got into all these "geek interests"
[02:40] <hamitron> tbh, I consider myself more of an engineer in general, than an IT guy
[02:42] <HazRPG> hamitron: then you'll love xkcd!
[02:42] <HazRPG> it has physic!
[02:42] <HazRPG> science!
[02:42] <HazRPG> IT stuffs!
[02:43] <hamitron> the time wasted reading comics, can be spent doing something useful
[02:43] <hamitron> the only problem is I tend to spend that time moaning instead
[02:43] <HazRPG> but... but...
[02:43] <HazRPG> well what are you doing now?
[02:43] <HazRPG> exactly!
[02:43] <HazRPG> hit the link :D
[02:43] <hamitron> installing ubuntu
[02:43] <hamitron> ;/
[02:43] <HazRPG> hit it...
[02:43] <HazRPG> hittttt itttttt
[02:47] <hamitron> busy
[02:47] <hamitron> and off to bed soon
[02:47] <hamitron> considering getting the new IL-2 game coming out
[02:47] <hamitron> 128 player online!
[02:49] <HazRPG> hamitron: get sc2 ;(
[02:51] <hamitron> I always played C&C more
[02:51] <hamitron> but lost interest in that series with all the DRM
[03:25] <HazRPG> coophi: finally!
[03:25] <coophi> oh hai
[03:26] <HazRPG> probably a good idea to register your nick now
[03:26] <HazRPG> if it isn't already
[03:26] <HazRPG>  /msg nickserv help
[03:27] <coophi> told you it needed to drop the 'e' :P
[03:28] <HazRPG> I said yeah
[03:28] <HazRPG> *eye roll*
[03:28]  * HazRPG pokes hamitron, shauno to see if there is any activity
[03:30] <HazRPG> coophi: when was the last time your used irc?
[03:31] <HazRPG> coophi: in fact... what was the last client for irc you use to use dude?
[03:31] <coophi> lol LOOONG time ago
[03:31] <coophi> the name escapes me.. it was the javascript one for a-eng though
[03:32] <HazRPG> 8-)
[03:32] <coophi> i never used the client coz i was never logged into it when i was at home
[03:32] <HazRPG> heh
[03:32] <HazRPG> I use to use mIRC back in 1998
[03:37] <HazRPG> coophi: do a whois on me
[03:53] <HazRPG> how does one go about getting a mask on irc again? (other than via tunnels, vps, etc)
[04:37] <szymon_g> hi
[04:37] <szymon_g> good morning!
[04:38] <coophi> mornin ^^
[04:41] <HazRPG> szymon_g: sup dude
[04:41] <szymon_g> wassup ;)
[04:41] <szymon_g> hm... that unity is quite nice btw
[04:42] <szymon_g> i've installed it yesterday, seems to be ok
[04:42] <szymon_g> (apart from fact, that when i've resumed from hibernation, all side icons were gone)
[04:42] <HazRPG> still in alpha/beta
[04:42] <HazRPG> check to see if there's a bug :)
[04:43] <HazRPG> if not, file one! \o/
[04:44] <szymon_g> hm... i didn't even know where to report it. anyway- it works fine now. and i thought Unity is stable now? /ubuntu 10.10/
[04:54] <HazRPG> unity 2D is stable
[04:55] <HazRPG> Unity 3D (aka the one being created for narwal 11.04) isn't yet
[04:55] <HazRPG> when I say unity 2D, I mean the one that's been used on the netbook editions of ubuntu for a while
[04:57] <HazRPG> szymon_g: btw, bugs get filed here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity
[04:58] <HazRPG> if you look on there, unity is far from stable
[04:58] <HazRPG> slowly getting there though
[05:03] <HazRPG> szymon_g: does this sound about right: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/609472
[05:10] <szymon_g> yeap, thats that
[05:10] <szymon_g> thanx HazRPG lubotu3
[05:10] <HazRPG> hehe lubotu3 automatically just repeats any bug numbers to tell you what the bug is
[05:11] <HazRPG> try typing the bug number and you'll see what I mean
[05:11] <szymon_g> ... ;)
[05:12] <szymon_g> 609472
[05:12] <szymon_g> ... :|
[05:12]  * szymon_g has to go to bed
[05:12] <szymon_g> se ya!
[05:12] <szymon_g> *see ya
[05:28] <HazRPG> hmm
[05:28] <HazRPG> #609472
[05:28] <HazRPG> random...
[05:32] <shauno> mornin
[05:36] <coophi> yo ^^
[07:03] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:03] <MartijnVdS> \o
[07:03] <AlanBell> I need to go trash my car now
[07:04] <coophi> sleepy time
[07:21] <HazRPG> AlanBell: trash it why?
[07:22] <HazRPG> also, mornin' guys :)
[07:22] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: o/
[07:26] <MartijnVdS> morning HazRPG
[07:28] <HazRPG> how's it going?
[07:28] <MartijnVdS> Just woke up.. reading some of Linus' rants on LKML
[07:28] <MartijnVdS> ("RAAAH ARM MAINTAINERS")
[07:29] <HazRPG> lol
[07:29] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/3/17/492 (not family-safe, maybe)
[07:29] <MartijnVdS> (it _is_ a Linus rant)
[07:33] <HazRPG> xD
[07:34] <HazRPG> even linus himself gets pi**ed off ;)
[07:34] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: often
[07:34] <HazRPG> heh
[07:34] <HazRPG> good reasons for I'm guessing though
[07:35] <MartijnVdS> yes, but there are other ways of getting your point across
[07:35] <HazRPG> its one thing to release your code, and its another thing to release and find many people trying to screw it up
[07:35] <HazRPG> I agree though, but its funny xD
[07:35] <MartijnVdS> Shouting obscenities works.. but people will remember just the obscenities.
[07:36] <HazRPG> didn't realise you subbed to lkml
[07:37] <HazRPG> any reason for ? Or just generally nosey at what's happening in the community?
[07:37] <MartijnVdS> I don't
[07:37] <MartijnVdS> But some of those "shouting matches" get posted to reddit :)
[07:37] <HazRPG> ah
[07:37] <HazRPG> lol
[07:38] <HazRPG> is reddit actually any good?
[07:38] <MartijnVdS> shauno: http://i.imgur.com/z5cDb.jpg
[07:39] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: it's a great time sink (beware)
[07:39] <HazRPG> every time I look at it, it just looks like another digg to me
[07:39] <shauno> oh dear
[07:39] <HazRPG> shauno: he awakens!
[07:39] <HazRPG> \o/
[07:40] <HazRPG> guessing you weren't on the night shift last night then
[07:44] <MartijnVdS> But some of those "shouting matches" get posted to reddit :)
[07:44] <MartijnVdS> uhm
[07:44] <MartijnVdS> http://hurrdurr.it/#url=http://www.ubuntu-uk.org
[07:45] <Jibadeeha> upnp support in rhythmbox sucks
[07:47] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: this is better :) http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/albuquerque
[07:48] <gordonjcp> Jibadeeha: s/upnp support in //
[07:48] <gordonjcp> ftfy
[07:48] <Jibadeeha> lol
[07:49] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: I know the lyrics. All of them.
[07:49] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: :P same
[07:49] <MartijnVdS> Hey mom, what's up with all the sauerkraut?
[07:49] <HazRPG> wacka wacka doo doo yeahhhhhhhhh
[07:52] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: You got any jelly doughnuts?
[07:52] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: No, we're out of jelly doughnuts.
[07:53] <shauno> that'd explain why it's doritos for breakfast
[07:53] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: You got any Bavarian cream filled doughnuts?
[07:54] <HazRPG> shauno: \o/
[07:54] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: No, we're out of Bavarian cream filled doughnuts!
[07:54] <HazRPG> shauno: I had the half a burger for breakfast from last night, technically... lol
[07:55] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Cinnamon rolls?
[07:55] <MartijnVdS> No
[07:55] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: apple fritters!?
[07:55]  * MartijnVdS goes check
[07:57] <HazRPG> :P
[07:58] <MartijnVdS> "Besides, now he's got a really cute nickname: Torsoboy"
[08:05] <AlanBell> everyone Jamming later?
[08:06] <HazRPG> Jamming?
[08:06] <MartijnVdS> global jamming
[08:06] <shauno> and I hope you like jamming too
[08:07] <HazRPG> *insert bob marley song here*
[08:12] <HazRPG> AlanBell: hmm, is there something for the whole day? (looks at email again)
[08:13] <AlanBell> there are sessions at various random times
[08:14] <AlanBell> but I think we will take a pirates code approach to the timetable
[08:14] <AlanBell> tis more of a guideline than an actual law. Arrrrrrr
[08:14] <HazRPG> heh :P
[08:14] <HazRPG> just lookin' at the 10AM stuff
[08:15] <HazRPG> I think I have most of that down by now
[08:15] <HazRPG> minus maybe the wiki personal page
[08:15] <AlanBell> yeah, we put that one up front to help people get started
[08:15] <AlanBell> oh, well perfect, you can do that bit then
[08:15] <HazRPG> I keep meaning to!
[08:15] <HazRPG> I just never know how to describe myself >_<
[08:16] <HazRPG> or etc
[08:18] <AlanBell> fine, getting over hurdles like that is *exactly* what this is about
[08:51] <HazRPG> willy_1977: you'll need to drag yourself into the main channel ("Global Jam") otherwise no one will here you
[08:51] <willy_1977> oh, has it connected now...
[08:52] <willy_1977> it was doing it's thing this end for ages ;)
[08:52] <willy_1977> thanks HazRPG
[08:52] <HazRPG> willy_1977: no problem :)
[08:52] <willy_1977> nope client crash :(
[08:52] <HazRPG> willy_1977: alt. you can double-click on "global jam" and it'll do the same effect :)
[08:53] <willy_1977> some weird stuff going on here, so will reboot and be back shortly ;)
[08:53] <HazRPG> AlanBell: isn't there a way to make a channel the default one?
[08:53] <HazRPG> willy_1977: no problem :)
[08:55] <HazRPG> AlanBell: I'm not sure how you've set it up, but this is one way of doing it: http://mumble.sourceforge.net/MurmurCL#Setting_a_default_channel
[09:09] <HazRPG> AlanBell: Just found an alternative to that method, depending on how you've setup mumble (either to use sqlite as the database, etc)... you just need to change/add the records in the "config" table as: server_id = 1; key = "defaultchannel"; value = id_number_of_channel (should be 0);
[09:10] <HazRPG> I use an sqlite browser to add/remove stuff in mine, however I'm sure there's a terminal tool for the same job
[09:11] <HazRPG> just food for thought, since I'm sure the whole channel thing might be confusing to some
[09:18] <HazRPG> heh, I'm use to doing this in windows
[09:19] <HazRPG> managed to find the database though, its found in /var/lib/mumble-server/mumble-server.sqlite
[09:23] <willy_1977> don't you hate it when you've had something working perfectly well and then on the day when you need it...
[09:24] <HazRPG> yup!
[09:24] <willy_1977> mumble - All I have is an unresponsive app after hitting connect (I've tried both hostnames)
[09:25] <willy_1977> ok, time to think logically I guess :)
[09:25] <HazRPG> check the port number :)
[09:25] <HazRPG> hang on, it says your in channel though
[09:26] <willy_1977> hmmmm...
[09:26] <HazRPG> did you hear anything just then?
[09:26] <willy_1977> nope...
[09:27] <HazRPG> port number is: 64738
[09:27] <HazRPG> btw
[09:28] <willy_1977> Should have gone now?
[09:28] <HazRPG> yeah
[09:29] <willy_1977> hmm interesting mumble was going fine but the gui is getting hung up on itself...
[09:29] <HazRPG> try removing it and installing it again
[09:30] <willy_1977> will do - next on the list... it seems to get caught up when trying to sort SSL out...
[09:31] <HazRPG> didn't realise it did SSL stuff
[09:32] <HazRPG> willy_1977: might also be worth adding the ppa for the latest version of mumble (1.2.3) which is the version I'm running on
[09:33] <willy_1977> I *think* this is going to install 1.2.3-1ubuntu6 (mumble)
[09:33] <HazRPG> hmm
[09:34] <HazRPG> didn't realise they'd updated it on the ubuntu repo
[09:34] <HazRPG> the one I'm rolling with is 1.2.3-1~ppa~maverick1 (mumble)
[09:34] <HazRPG> although both sound similar
[09:35] <willy_1977> true, I'll see if this works... if it does I may have been a complete numpty... more to follow on that if so :)
[09:35] <HazRPG> :P
[09:36] <HazRPG> right I'm going to scavenge some food from the kitchen somewhere
[09:36] <HazRPG> bbl
[09:36] <willy_1977> kk
[09:36] <HazRPG> oh, btw, says your on the server again (just thought I'd let you know)
[09:37] <willy_1977> thanks... flipping thing...
[09:59] <AlanBell> morning all
[10:07] <willy_1977> morning, still having mumble issues here :(
[10:11] <AlanBell> just restarting the mumble server to give it more memory and a default channel
[10:11] <willy_1977> Ok, I think I'm having issues with my firewall etc. tbh.
[10:11] <AlanBell> ok, we can get that sorted
[10:12] <willy_1977> *routers firewall
[10:12] <willy_1977> some noncey firmware on there that I haven't figured out yet...
[10:12]  * danfish will be joining in later - the normal Saturday morning kids stuff first ;)
[10:13] <AlanBell> willy_1977: ok, so you need to get outbound TCP access to the default mumble port
[10:14] <willy_1977> AlanBell: yep, so far I can open a set range of ports e.g. ssh, telnet etc. but there doesn't seem to be anywhere to add services / ports :(
[10:14] <willy_1977> I'm not quite sure what's changed because as you know it was working the other night.
[10:14] <AlanBell> willy_1977: on most domestic routers outbound ports should be open anyway
[10:14] <willy_1977> :/
[10:15] <willy_1977> ah, ok, so is it just outbound it needs then?
[10:18] <AlanBell> yup
[10:18] <willy_1977> hmmm maybe then my suspicions on firewall were incorrect
[10:18] <AlanBell> port 64738, but it shouldn't be an issue
[10:22] <HazRPG> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HazRPG
[10:23] <willy_1977> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeeWilliams is me... ;)
[10:23] <HazRPG> \o/
[10:25] <willy_1977> yeah I've been meaning to ask what does \o/ mean then?
[10:26] <Daviey> willy_1977, What version of ubuntu are you using?
[10:26] <AlanBell> person waving both hands in the air
[10:26] <AlanBell> o/ <- waving one hand
[10:26] <willy_1977> AlanBell: thought as much
[10:26] <willy_1977> Daviey: 11.04
[10:27] <Daviey> willy_1977, Ah... are you fully up to date on updates?
[10:27] <willy_1977> thought I was, will check now.
[10:28] <Daviey> I found mumble unusable for months under Natty... only recently has it worked better with the UI.
[10:28]  * willy_1977 fetches coat
[10:29] <willy_1977> I'm beginning to doubt myself a little then :) but I could've sworn it was working on 11.04 the other night...
[10:29] <Daviey> There was a known, "minimize and lose it forever" issue aswell.
[10:36] <Daviey> jamespage, here for the JAM? :)
[10:37]  * willy_1977 we're jammin'
[10:37] <Daviey> jamespage1, here for the JAM? :)
[10:37] <AlanBell> oops, did I break the server?
[10:38] <HazRPG> AlanBell: seems that way!
[10:46] <willy_1977> I've just had a automatic bug report come through when exiting the update-manager gui , it appears to have been logged before is there anyway I can attach my info to that bug, i.e. does the auto reporting tool store it's reports and if so where?
[10:55] <AlanBell> Hi all, we are now moving on to sorting out the wiki pages http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ListOfUKTeamPages
[10:55] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:56] <brobostigon> sorry i am late.
[10:56] <HazRPG> brobostigon: good morning :)
[10:56] <brobostigon> HazRPG: goodmorning, :)
[10:56] <brobostigon> let mefire mumble up.
[10:57] <HazRPG> sure :)
[10:58] <HazRPG> Update my wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HazRPG
[11:10] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: You should add "Future plans for Ubuntu: Remove unity"
[11:10] <HazRPG> xD
[11:14] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: or, replace with gnome3. :)
[11:15] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: or that.
[11:15] <MartijnVdS> For now, I'm sticking to classic
[11:15] <MartijnVdS> ♥ panels
[11:17] <brobostigon> :)
[11:33]  * jacobw likes Unity
[11:38] <HazRPG> agrees ♥ panels :)
[11:38] <HazRPG> classic ftw
[11:41] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: Stuff you have done -- set up an IPv6 tunnel ;)
[11:41] <HazRPG> :P
[11:41] <HazRPG> ta :)
[11:42] <brobostigon> setup ipv6 routing.
[11:42] <MartijnVdS> that as well
[11:42] <brobostigon> setup a radvd,whatever description fits.
[11:42] <brobostigon> addr advertising ?
[11:43] <HazRPG> yeah :)
[11:45] <HazRPG> updated, how does that look :)
[11:54] <brobostigon> HazRPG: let me check, oneminute.
[11:59] <brobostigon> HazRPG: looks good, :)
[12:00] <HazRPG> brobostigon: thanks :)
[12:02] <brobostigon> HazRPG: :)
[12:02] <brobostigon> HazRPG: youre welcome.
[12:14] <HazRPG> https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/743486
[12:17] <Daviey> HazRPG, Have you undergone the HE 'tasks'?
[12:18] <HazRPG> Daviey: erm...? The tests?
[12:18] <HazRPG> if so, then yeah :)
[12:19] <Daviey> HazRPG, http://ipv6.he.net/certification/
[12:19] <HazRPG> I certainly have :)
[12:19] <HazRPG> http://ipv6.he.net/certification/scoresheet.php?pass_name=hazrpg
[12:29] <HazRPG> Daviey: guessing you saw my blog post :)
[12:30] <Daviey> HazRPG, yeah.. glad to see you used HE, rather than Sixxs
[12:30] <HazRPG> Daviey: I tried Sixxs a year or two ago, and well... I didn't like it, simply put
[12:32] <HazRPG> even tried miredo (ubuntu) and teredo (win machine) a few years back
[12:32] <MartijnVdS> So sixxs still have the uptime rules?
[12:33] <HazRPG> I think so
[12:33] <Daviey> HazRPG, I really disliked sixxs for being complete asses. :)
[12:33]  * Daviey explains verbally.
[12:37] <brobostigon> sixxs dont have uptime rules with the way i connect ti them,
[12:41] <DJones> Yay, new laptop arrived and a live usb of natty works nicely on it
[12:42] <sagaci> anyone around that's worked in translations for 3+ cycles?
[12:42] <HazRPG> Daviey: apparently tee's go out in batches I've been informed
[12:42] <Daviey> ahh
[12:42] <Daviey> HazRPG, I guess i should do my glue stuff then.
[12:42] <HazRPG> Daviey: indeed :)
[12:47] <penguin42> hi from u^3 in Manchester
[12:47] <HazRPG> penguin42: howdy :D
[12:48] <DJones> Now to create recovery  discs for win7, free up some space & install ubuntu
[12:49] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: U³
[12:49] <MartijnVdS> Not U96 or U235
[12:49] <HazRPG> DJones: hurrah \o/
[12:49] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwc0shJ2aYc
[12:50] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: that is random xD
[12:50] <MartijnVdS> No, that's U96 :)
[12:53] <HazRPG> Daviey: hopefully my blog post will help some others curious about ipv6
[13:11]  * willy1977 is just setting a few more things up...
[13:20] <HazRPG> \o/
[13:20] <HazRPG> for vnc n stuff
[13:22] <willy1977> have got further it's asking me for a password for registered users?
[13:22] <willy1977> *mumble I mean :)
[13:22] <HazRPG> hmm
[13:23] <HazRPG> as far as I know... there isn't one
[13:23] <brobostigon> agreed, there isnt.
[13:23] <willy1977> what's the url for the mumble server then? in case I've got the wrong one?
[13:23] <HazRPG> mumble.libertus.co.uk
[13:24] <HazRPG> port 64738
[13:36] <willy1977> http://virt-manager.et.redhat.com/page/StorageManagement
[13:39] <DJones> Almost ready to install ubuntu, should I go with 32 or 64 bit & 10.10 or 11.04 beta, decisions, decisions ...., its nice to have to make decisions like this
[13:41] <sagaci> DJones, probably 10.10 but you'll probably want to reinstall 11.04 in a month's time
[13:42] <DJones> sagaci: Just been trying 11.04, unity is going to take some getting used to
[13:44] <DJones> sagaci: I can do some bug testing as well, although I could do 10.10 and then try 11.04 in a vm
[13:44] <sagaci> DJones, you can fallback to gnome 2.32.x
[13:46] <DJones> I've seen that, must admit I normally install/update once they hit beta, so I'll probably go with natty as the main install, now I've got a decent machine it'll be good to see what its capeable of
[13:48] <sagaci> just expect hitches
[13:48] <Daviey> HazRPG, yeah, it was a good blog post!
[13:52] <AlanBell> anyone else want to come and join in our Natty install over VNC?
[13:52] <AlanBell> vncviewer libertushost1.libertus.co.uk:5906
[13:53] <AlanBell> password is ubuntuuk
[13:53] <AlanBell> and join the mumble thing to talk about it as we go
[13:53] <AlanBell> the idea is to file bugs against the installer
[13:55] <JR0cket> I had a problem with the install when I checked the "Install this third-party software" - install did not complete
[14:32] <AlanBell> next session is at 16:00 going through the Natty install with the screenreader option and filing bugs
[14:44]  * BigRedS claims that inistence upon swap partition is a bug
[14:47] <shauno> does it actually demand one now?  I thought it used to just pop up a warning making sure you know what you're doing
[14:51] <BigRedS> yeah, it warns, but it makes it sound like it's a terribly bad idea
[14:51] <willy1977> is it a terribly bad idea?
[14:51] <popey> yes
[14:51] <popey> :)
[14:51] <BigRedS> I think it should just ask how big a swap file you want somewhere along the way. I completely don't get the obsession with separate partitions for swap
[14:52] <BigRedS> especially since we don't put anything else in separate partitions by default, and swap gains the least from being on its own
[14:52] <popey> where would you put the swap file?
[14:52] <willy1977> ahhh... swap partition/file = virtual memory I see!
[14:52] <penguin42> popey: /
[14:52] <BigRedS> Personally, probably just in  /. That's where mine are
[14:53] <shauno> the idea always was that swap actually does gain a lot from being one contiguous region
[14:53] <BigRedS> I don't know if thre's a fhs opinion on it or something
[14:54] <shauno> swapd could be an interesting option one day.  it doesn't seem to react fast enough when things go wrong tho
[14:54] <BigRedS> shauno: it is as a file, too; it's a contiguous file.
[14:55] <penguin42> it's probably still the case that swap on a separate partition is faster; I'm also not sure the magic in hibernation
[14:55] <popey> penguin42: its not
[14:56] <BigRedS> Popular opinion seems to be that on a separate opinion 'makes sense' for some reson, as far as easily seeing what's going on
[14:57] <BigRedS> But I think that, especially for new desktop users, everything-in-one-partition would be a handy thing to be able to do
[14:57] <BigRedS> (and I suspect the seeing what's going on argument is based on the tradition of having a swap partiton)
[14:57] <popey> it does make sense for people who upgrade RAM
[14:58] <popey> who want/have to resize their swap space
[14:58] <popey> although, i believe they're toying with the idea of hiding the hibernate option entirely in natty
[14:58] <popey> because it's slow and rarely works
[14:58] <BigRedS> I don't think I've ever resized a swap file, I suspect it's non-trivial (but the non-trivia can be done all behind the scenes)
[14:59] <BigRedS> yeah, resuming from hibernate takes longer than a cold boot
[14:59] <willy1977> hibernation is for bears...
[14:59] <popey> hah
[14:59] <BigRedS> hahaha
[14:59] <gord> as long as the swap file doesn't dynamicly grow/shrink (except in explicit cases like memory size changing) i'v always felt that it makes more sense over a fixed partition
[15:00] <willy1977> no matter the OS it's just painful in my experience anyhow...
[15:01] <BigRedS> yeah, I thought it was unique to Linux, but then I tried it on a windows box and that was even worse
[15:01] <BigRedS> I was happy :)
[15:01] <gord> i have to use an sd card as a swap parition on this netbook, because you can't change the partition layout in order to create a swap partition inside it :(
[15:01]  * BigRedS wanders off to file a wishlist bug
[15:03] <BigRedS> argh. One day I'll get the hang of launchpad
[15:04] <BigRedS> is Ubiquity the name of the installer?
[15:05] <shauno> I'm not sure you can resize a swap file.  swapoff filename, change the filesize (however you like), mkswap & swapon it
[15:05] <hamitron> is there not less overhead having the swap on a partition, because it is formated accordingly?
[15:05] <popey> a swapfile is formatted accordingly internally
[15:06] <hamitron> yeh, but it must still use ext4 or whatever the filesystem is?
[15:06] <hamitron> it is like 2 layers of filesystems
[15:06] <gord> the only additional overhead from a swapfile over a swap partition is potential fragmentation, otherwise after the first stat and file open, there is no additional overhead
[15:07] <popey> arguably it shouldn't matter
[15:07] <popey> you shouldn't be using it
[15:07] <BigRedS> hamitron: no, the kernel doesn't use the fs
[15:07] <hamitron> so how does ext fs know where each section of a file is?
[15:08] <BigRedS> http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/7/7/326
[15:08] <BigRedS> is the most succinct an explanation I've found.
[15:09] <willy1977> so the has it's own map of the swap file locations etc.?
[15:09] <willy1977> *the kernel
[15:10] <BigRedS> yeah
[15:10] <BigRedS> it accesses it essentially as it does a swap partition
[15:10] <willy1977> that was nice and concise ;)
[15:10] <hamitron> so in theory, a larger swap will mean using more memory?
[15:10] <hamitron> on a linear relationship
[15:11] <BigRedS> no?
[15:11] <willy1977> I'd have thought you'd just need a start / end location address?
[15:11] <willy1977> or similar
[15:11] <BigRedS> yeah, assuming it's contiguous
[15:12] <BigRedS> I suppose that if it's not you'd need a start and offset for each fragment
[15:13] <hamitron> so a heavily fragmented would
[15:13] <hamitron> if that is how it is done
[15:13] <BigRedS> yeah, which is why you create the file at install time, or at least on a very young system
[15:13] <willy1977> yup, and if you have to add to it, that's when the irk begins (which BigRedS  mentioned could be done behind the scenes :/)
[15:14] <hamitron> think I'll just stick to a partition, easier
[15:14] <hamitron> :/
[15:14] <shauno> two answers there.  either don't add to it (you can create a second swapfile & use both), or fix the cause instead of the symptom, and find out why you've living in swap
[15:15] <BigRedS> It just seems dumb that we've already moved all the other traditionally-separate-partitions onto the same as /, but the one with little technical merit in being separate is still an additional partiton
[15:15] <gord> creating a second swap file and using both is fragmentating ;)
[15:15] <BigRedS> shauno: the current argument for having swap at all is generally hibernation
[15:15] <hamitron> BigRedS: you don't have seperate partitions?
[15:15] <willy1977> and we've already established hiberantion is the devil.
[15:15] <shauno> trying to expand an existing file is going to be fragmented too
[15:16] <hamitron> is it sane to have no swap?
[15:16] <BigRedS> hamitron: I do, but IIRC the installer defaults to most-in-one if not all-in-one?
[15:16] <hamitron> then you have no swap fragmentation
[15:16] <hamitron> ;)
[15:16] <BigRedS> hamitron: yeah, generally if you're using swap you've problems outside of the efficiency of swap
[15:16] <shauno> I think a second swapfile on a lower priority would be saner than fragmenting your only swapfile
[15:16] <BigRedS> and you should be fixing those rathe rthan optimising swap
[15:17] <popey> depends on your definition of "using swap"
[15:17] <BigRedS> yeah, and what the system is doing
[15:17] <gord> shauno, actually no, if your using ext4 or such and just swapoff , make new larger swap file, swap on, you should be fine. its clever enough
[15:17] <popey> using could mean "space allocated" or "blocks in/out per second"
[15:17] <hamitron> blocks in/out is what matters
[15:18] <BigRedS> gord: is that intelligence in ext4 or in mkswap?
[15:18] <shauno> ext4 isn't clever at all :/  it just contains the fragmentation to roughly the same physically area of the disk
[15:18] <gord> BigRedS, ext4 - using extents
[15:19] <gord> if you say "i want a file and it will be this size" then it'll find the largest free space to put it in to avoid fragmentation
[15:20] <hamitron> too complex
[15:20] <hamitron> :/
[15:20] <hamitron> KISS and use a seperate partition
[15:20] <hamitron> ;)
[15:21] <hamitron> or drive
[15:25] <hamitron> how good is ext4 when you run low on free space then?
[15:26] <shauno> I'm not sure anything's good when you run low on disk :/
[15:26] <hamitron> hehe
[15:26] <hamitron> that explains why I always hurt then
[15:27] <hamitron> I do try to store data on a different partition though
[15:28] <hamitron> I refuse to budge from some old habbits
[15:28] <hamitron> seperate /boot too :/
[15:28] <hamitron> not even sure if there is any advantage for the boot partition now
[15:29] <hamitron> just stops me getting greedy with the number of kernels I keep installed :)
[15:32]  * brobostigon prods pitivi, ormight have to resort to using blender.
[15:39]  * penguin421 yaawwwnns
[15:40] <gord> brobostigon, does pitivi still not work well?
[15:41] <shauno> hamitron: given your love for older machines, /boot may still be useful for you.  iirc it was a trick to make sure kernels lived without a given cylinder boundary from when harddrives were growing faster than bioses
[15:41] <shauno> er, *live within
[15:42] <brobostigon> gord: very badly. yes.
[15:42] <hamitron> before the 1024th
[15:42] <hamitron> yeh
[15:42] <popey> gord: doesnt work at all for video from mant video cameras
[15:42] <hamitron> redhat 6.0 was fine with LBA32 passed to lilo though
[15:43]  * brobostigon uses blender insted, and gives up on pitivi
[15:44] <hamitron> when you get kernel updates in ubuntu, does it automatically ask to remove the older ones eventually?
[15:44] <popey> no
[15:45] <hamitron> so what happens to a newb who doesn't know there is even such a thing as a kernel?
[15:46] <matti> hamitron: He goes on the Internet and educate himself to the ranks of Jedi Master.
[15:46] <matti> ;]
[15:46] <directhex> hamitron, computer janitor will remove old kernels.
[15:47] <gord> ugh that sucks
[15:47] <hamitron> :))
[15:50] <brobostigon> what is normal dvd framerate?
[15:50] <hamitron> anyways, I'm gonna go do something useful, rather than look for problems that don't affect me
[15:51] <popey> the issues done affect the newb user
[15:51] <popey> newb users aren't tainted with legacy ways like creating /boot partitions
[15:51] <brobostigon> a fresh unbiased mind.
[15:52] <hamitron> I was thinking more having 500mb used with old kernels
[15:52] <hamitron> ;)
[15:53] <popey> 500MB is not worth thinking about
[15:53] <hamitron> :-o
[15:53] <hamitron> mr popey is wasteful
[15:53] <hamitron> ;/
[15:53] <popey> hardly
[15:53] <hamitron> 500mb is huge
[15:54] <popey> /dev/sda5             207G  138G   59G  71% /
[15:54] <popey> i wouldn't notice
[15:55] <penguin421> filling up /boot can be a real problem
[15:55] <matti> /dev/sda1             251M   47M  192M  20% /boot
[15:56] <shauno> I don't believe the installer recommends a /boot anymore?  so it's only a problem if you opt for it :)
[15:57] <popey> exactly
[15:57] <matti> I don't see a reason to keep bazillion old kernels. Current and previous is probably sensible.
[15:57] <hamitron> could be a problem for something with a 160gb hard drive and 150gb of data
[15:57] <matti> shauno: Not everyone does what installer recommends ;p
[15:57] <hamitron> that 500mb is just....
[15:58] <popey> delete stuff
[15:58] <popey> don't be a hoarder
[15:59] <hamitron> or you could delete unused kernels
[15:59] <shauno> matti: understood :)  I just figure if you tell the installer you know better, then you gotta follow thru on that
[15:59] <hamitron> maybe under some "system clean" or something
[15:59] <shauno> that's what janitor is
[15:59] <hamitron> where is that?
[16:00] <shauno> (insert someone who uses gnome here)
[16:00] <shauno> :)
[16:00] <brobostigon> i have about 6 or 7 unused kernel on my eeepc right now, as i am experimenting with different kernel versions, for the gpu lockup/hang bug.
[16:00] <matti> shauno: Janitor is -- in my opinion -- dangerous.
[16:01] <shauno> matti: purging old kernels automatically isn't very safe either.  it's sane to keep trusted kernels around during upgrades.  it's less easy for the updater to evaluate 'trusted'
[16:01] <directhex> 2.6.37 is evil! purge 2.6.37!
[16:01] <AlanBell> going to start the screen reader install shortly
[16:02] <matti> shauno: With things like dkms and other bits with do magic after you upgrade / downgrade the kernel.
[16:02] <brobostigon> AlanBell: sorry, i wont be able to be there, i have things to sort out here,
[16:02] <matti> shauno: A lot of things may break when you fall-back to previous kernel.
[16:02] <matti> shauno: Binary closed source drivers are a good example.
[16:03] <popey> they do?
[16:03] <hamitron> I don't think automatic removel is good either, but some popup on reboot after kernel upgrade maybe?
[16:03] <popey> yeah, would be nice if it kept a track of successful reboots
[16:03] <shauno> they shouldn't :/  I'd expect dkms to put the new modules in /lib/modules/`uname -r`/, leaving previous versions untouched
[16:04] <popey> and figured "You haven't used 2.6.old for 6 months, shall i remove it?"
[16:04] <matti> shauno: That is not always the case.
[16:04] <hamitron> exactly popey
[16:04] <matti> shauno: I guess incremental kernel updates from mainstream Ubuntu are fine.
[16:04] <hamitron> kernel tracker
[16:05] <matti> shauno: But when you have something older and/or custom ... then things get messy.
[16:06] <shauno> so if I install a new kernel, device x no longer functions as expected, I can't trust rolling back to the previous kernel to be a sane option?
[16:07] <matti> shauno: It works in 90% of cases. But when it breaks you have to manually fix it.
[16:07] <matti> shauno: But, being up to date, and running recent Ubuntu is probably not a problem...
[16:08] <matti> shauno: I have older system, and things do break a lot. Especially when they back-port ...
[16:08] <matti> Hah ;]
[16:10] <hamitron> "Hah"? ;)
[16:10] <hamitron> that just sounds childish :D
[16:10] <matti> hamitron: Hehe.
[16:10] <matti> hamitron: I am not really a grown up ;p
[16:11]  * matti is running 9.10 ...
[16:11] <matti> I guess this makes me quite out of date?
[16:11] <matti> ;/
[16:11] <hamitron> ATI drivers?
[16:11] <matti> No, Ubuntu release.
[16:11] <hamitron> why run 9.10?
[16:11] <MartijnVdS> That makes you OLD :)
[16:11] <hamitron> even I am upgrading to 10.04 now, and I am a stick in the mud
[16:12] <hamitron> ;/
[16:12] <matti> It does not look like 9.10 any more.
[16:12] <matti> I have custom most of the things.
[16:12] <screen-x> afternoon :)
[16:12] <hamitron> how long does it have security updates?
[16:12] <matti> MartijnVdS: I guess so.
[16:12] <hamitron> or does it?
[16:12] <hamitron> ;/
[16:12] <matti> hamitron: I back-port when needed.
[16:12] <hamitron> so what is your reason?
[16:13] <matti> hamitron: I also have custom kernel.
[16:13] <matti> hamitron: I can't be asked to put all these customizations back after new fresh install.
[16:13] <matti> hamitron: It took me some time to get my notebook working as I like.
[16:14] <matti> hamitron: Purely because I never have the time to do it.
[16:14] <matti> hamitron: Keep posponing upgrades to ... "Maybe next week..." ;p
[16:14] <hamitron> I understand that feeling
[16:15] <hamitron> but that is why I use LTS releases ;)
[16:15] <matti> hamitron: But then you want something more recent...
[16:15] <matti> hamitron: So you mix and match and hack'n'slash things.
[16:15] <shauno> you're stuck on 9.10? LTS _is_ more recent
[16:16] <MartijnVdS> slightly
[16:16] <matti> hamitron: And then you realise that it will be hard to port all of this onto something new ;p
[16:16] <matti> shauno: Me or hamitron?
[16:16]  * matti either builds his own or gets things from Squeeze.
[16:16] <hamitron> matti: i'd have still put the effort into getting upto 10.04, then good for 3 years
[16:17] <brobostigon> matti: so debian stable?
[16:17] <hamitron> debian is hardly modern ;)
[16:17] <matti> brobostigon: That is hard to say ;p
[16:18] <hamitron> but I suppose, that is best thing about linux as a whole, you can do wtf you want
[16:18] <brobostigon> matti: :)
[16:18] <matti> brobostigon: I cannot really put what I've done under a common umbrella ;]
[16:18] <matti> hamitron: Precisely ;]
[16:18] <hamitron> still think you are crazy ;)
[16:18] <brobostigon> matti: i know what you mean, after abasic cli install, i play about with things alot.
[16:19] <matti> hamitron: :P
[16:19] <matti> hamitron: I have my Mattinux, I guess.
[16:19] <hamitron> dull, matt like
[16:19] <hamitron> ;D
[16:20] <brobostigon> matti: my natty install, is pretty much a botch between standerd natty and gnome3 and a few other bit and pieces.
[16:20] <matti> Pfff ;p
[16:20] <hamitron> !natty
[16:20] <matti> brobostigon: :)
[16:20] <hamitron> that is kinda new
[16:20] <hamitron> :)
[16:21] <brobostigon> hamitron: i agree, i lived with debian sid/unstable for quite a while, so this is little risk compared,
[16:23] <hamitron> yeh :)
[16:23] <hamitron> well, I am still on debian 5.0
[16:23] <hamitron> ;)
[16:23] <AlanBell> bug 748352
[16:26] <dutchie> i see that occasionally
[16:26] <dutchie> i think
[16:26] <dutchie> oh no, i see something completely different
[16:26] <AlanBell> bug 748359
[16:28] <AlanBell> bug 748361
[16:37] <penguin421> oh that one is fun
[16:41] <Myrtti> what an epic day
[16:42] <AlanBell> in what way Myrtti?
[16:44] <Myrtti> lovely dreams during the night, then a bus ride to my apartment, there was British stuff being sold at the market and I got some nice stuff from there, then went to the nice food shop and got some salmon and rice for dindins, now I've got nice British tea in a nice British cuppa and saucer, nice vanilla pretzel with British lemon & ginger curd, watching Midsomer Murders on my lappy
[16:44] <Myrtti> I can almost imagine being in UK now
[16:44] <Myrtti> luvly
[16:44] <AlanBell> so can I :)
[16:44] <AlanBell> when do you come back?
[16:45] <Myrtti> anytime after mum gets better and I learn to inject myself with Klexane
[16:45] <Myrtti> :-(
[16:46] <Myrtti> (in which "mum gets better" means "is in a condition I can allow myself not to worry about her 24/7")
[16:53] <popey> bug 748384
[16:56] <willy1977> what's next on the jam list?
[16:57] <willy1977> scratch that just picked up AlanBell 's email update
[17:18] <Myrtti> I recon I've soon drank almost a bucket of tea :-D
[17:24] <MartijnVdS> Buckets of tea++
[17:25] <matti> Nah.
[17:25] <matti> Coffee \o/
[17:25] <MartijnVdS> matti: heathen!
[17:25] <matti> Haha
[17:25] <BigRedS> coffee for productivity, tea for relaxing
[17:26] <matti> ;]
[17:26] <BigRedS> that's quite a manic grin you've got there
[17:27] <matti> BigRedS: Just had coffee, that's why ;]
[17:27] <BigRedS> ah yeah, that should've been a bit obvious :)
[17:28] <matti> :>
[17:29] <matti> Ah, such a nice day and I have to do my course work.
[17:29] <matti> *twittttch*
[17:41] <BigRedS> Haha, I'm working today :(
[17:41] <BigRedS> Admittedly, from a bench in the garden :)
[17:42] <shauno> I'm at the office, but it's all good because I've already filled today's crazy quota
[17:45] <matti> Spare time seems like a luxury nowadays ;]
[17:48] <shauno> not sure myself.  I mean, train-spotters still exist ..
[17:49] <matti> Hahah
[17:50] <matti> This reminded me about my friend from work... he uses every single spare minute to play WoW.
[17:52] <shauno> that was me until not so long ago :/
[17:53] <matti> Oh.
[17:54]  * brobostigon needs to learn to use blenders video editing again.
[17:55] <BigRedS> matti: I knew a guy who used every single spare minute from WoW to do work...
[17:55] <BigRedS> that didn't last long
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> \o/ Colleague managed to register a team for a 10 mile running event in September
[17:56] <hamitron> :/
[17:56] <BigRedS> Do the members know they're in the team?
[17:56] <matti> LOL
[17:56] <matti> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfso7_i9Ko8
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: Yes, everyone volunteered :)
[17:57] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: http://damloop.nl/index.html
[17:57] <matti> BigRedS: Oh dear.
[17:58] <matti> BigRedS: This can be really life-wrecking if you don't know where to draw the line...
[17:58] <Azelphur> Hmm, I had an sd card with guarentee from a seller on Amazon and it broke, I sent it back to them, it's been a month and I havn't heard from them
[17:58] <Azelphur> :(
[17:59] <BigRedS> matti: yeah, I've seen a couple of people completely fail to find the line
[17:59] <matti> BigRedS: Yeah... They need to learn how to draw the line from the best...
[17:59] <MartijnVdS> I know a few ex-WoW players who are now falling into the Minecraft trap
[17:59] <matti> BigRedS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGF1NP-FrCU
[17:59] <shauno> MartijnVdS: \o/
[18:00] <matti> BigRedS: Picard will show them!
[18:00]  * matti loves First Contact
[18:00] <shauno> to be honest, I think that's why I'm loving minecraft.  I can pick it up, play it silly, and then put it down for weeks at a time
[18:01] <shauno> instead of having expectations, schedules, people to let down, etc
[18:02] <matti> LOL
[18:02] <matti> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2IJdfxWtPM
[18:02] <matti> So British ;p
[18:03] <zleap> how did the ubuntu jam, thing to today ?
[18:14] <matti> I have no idea.
[18:16] <AlanBell> zleap: we have been fixing wiki pages, filing bugs against Natty installer
[18:16] <zleap> cool
[18:16] <AlanBell> and I am just doing a runthrough of some of the Accessible installer options
[18:17] <zleap> sounds good then
[18:17] <AlanBell> and filing *masses* of bugs against that
[18:17] <willy1977> AlanBell, you not doing that on mumble?
[18:17] <AlanBell> willy1977: I did go through it on mumble
[18:17] <willy1977> :/
[18:17] <AlanBell> then turned mumble off and went through it doing a clean recording
[18:18] <willy1977> poo
[18:18] <willy1977> missed that then...
[18:18] <AlanBell> well feel free to have a go in a VM or something on your machine
[18:18] <AlanBell> I will upload my video later
[18:19] <willy1977> I'll check out the vid - I just wonder what went on with mumble... hmmm
[18:20] <AlanBell> can you hear me?
[18:20] <willy1977> nope nowt...
[18:20] <willy1977> I'll try reconnecting.
[18:20] <AlanBell> I could hear you a bit
[18:21] <willy1977> ok so can't connect again now...
[18:22] <willy1977> must be my not so good connection then...
[18:25] <AlanBell> say something
[18:25] <AlanBell> hello to you too
[18:26] <AlanBell> is your volume muted somewhere?
[18:26] <willy1977> not that I can see... are you talking now?
[18:27] <AlanBell> when I am red I am talking
[18:27] <willy1977> that's just it you're little lips aren't going red anymore :(
[18:35] <AlanBell> ok, next session at 8PM
[18:35] <AlanBell> going through the election process and getting that ready for the wiki page
[18:42] <DJones> Evening all
[18:43] <Azelphur> Anyone know a good ADSL modem that'll just do PPPoE from a cable router?
[18:43] <Azelphur> ADSL2+ modem, rather
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> uhm
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> Why not buy a PPPoE "normal" router then?
[18:52] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: because I have a Linksys WRT610n with DD-WRT
[18:52] <Azelphur> and it's very nice.
[18:52] <MartijnVdS> Get a Fritz!Box 7340, it can switch from DSL to 3G if connection drops :)
[18:52] <Azelphur> so can my router
[18:53] <Azelphur> I'm not decomissioning my £120 Linux router :p
[18:53] <Azelphur> all I need is a modem and it's good to go :D
[18:56] <shauno> \o/ home!
[18:57] <AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/4967179
[19:03] <shauno> I'd be curious to see someone go thru that without the screen
[19:09] <shauno> I really don't like that it's reading out 'underscore' everywhere.  it's reading out the name of the element?
[19:14] <AlanBell> yeah, it is a bit nasty
[19:15] <AlanBell> I have done it without looking at the screen in Lucid
[19:16] <shauno> not sure how it works on gnome; is there any hinting in the dialog that should suggest content to orca?
[19:18] <AlanBell> well kind of, try running orca and see what it does
[19:18] <AlanBell> there is an app which shows all the accessibilty events and hints
[19:19] <AlanBell> !info accerciser
[19:24] <shauno> I'll have to take a prod at that after dinner
[19:26] <shauno> I did the voiceover install on osx, thanks to the screen on my laptop being duff.  there was a single page that tripped me up.  not convinced I could have done the same with that walk thru
[19:26] <shauno> seems it'd have made more sense if it just read out the fields we see, rather than .. wherever it's getting underscore from all the time
[19:33] <shauno> I had one step that turned out to be a progress bar.  but it didn't tell me that.  nor did it read out the "now doing stuff" header.  having absolutely zero feedback was incredibly frustrating
[19:35] <willy1977> Yeah, that's not so hot is it...
[19:44] <DJones> Sucess, new laptop, ubuntu installed, /me sits back to install useful apps now
[19:45] <ali1234> it strikes me that an install using debian-installer might work a lot better with a screen reader than a fancy GUI method
[19:45] <AlanBell> ali1234: yes, it probably would
[19:47] <HazRPG> *pokes*
[19:47] <HazRPG> seems I went from going for some food to actually sleeping on the sofa >_< lol
[19:47] <czajkowski> Aloha
[19:48] <ali1234> hmm re: keyboard layout, do blind people have braille keyboards or are they all expert touch typers?
[19:49] <AlanBell> hi czajkowski
[19:49] <AlanBell> ali1234: they are *amazing* touch typists generally
[19:49] <AlanBell> but braille keyboards exist too
[19:50] <ali1234> in the case of touch typing, all the questions about detecting kb layout are irrelevant
[19:50] <AlanBell> yes, it is pretty useless, just confusing if you end up in that section by accident
[19:50] <HazRPG> czajkowski: howdy
[19:50] <hamitron> omg, why do you always have problems when you are relying on someone else?
[19:50] <hamitron> :/
[19:50]  * hamitron headbutts wall
[19:51] <AlanBell> czajkowski: have you been car shopping?
[19:51] <HazRPG> hamitron: Hmm?
[19:51] <hamitron> my vps is broken
[19:52] <BigRedS> I'm after a way of debugging some PHP that's apparently not executing the SQL it should be without having to touch the code. Something like a PHP extension that gives me better logging? Anyone got any suggestions?
[19:52] <hamitron> my node had updates on 29th, and now loads of hassle
[19:52] <HazRPG> hmm, seems I missed the natty install, but I do have like 6hrs worth of audio xD
[19:54] <czajkowski> AlanBell: nope
[19:54] <czajkowski> relaxing resting
[19:54] <czajkowski> not able to move
[19:54] <czajkowski> and now fighting with machine
[19:55] <shauno> BigRedS: if you can change .htaccess, http://perishablepress.com/press/2008/01/14/advanced-php-error-handling-via-htaccess/  may be useful.  there's a lot of errorlevel & debug flags you can pass thru apache
[19:56] <BigRedS> shauno: Ah. I'm trying to work out why code that works under Apache/mod_php appears to not under lighttpd/cgi
[19:57] <shauno> now that sound fun.  have you compared the output of phpinfo() between the two?
[19:57] <BigRedS> shauno: yeah. I've rebuilt the cgi binary to match the configure options as closely as possible, and the php.ini is just a cp of the tree apache uses
[19:57] <shauno> may give clues if there's different capabilities listed  (or indeed, if they're pointing to different php.ini's)
[19:58] <BigRedS> I've just thought of pointing lighttpd to the same php as apache's using just to test
[19:58] <BigRedS> why didn't that occur to me before?
[19:58] <BigRedS> still, I do need it working under lighttpd and a non-dpkg php
[20:00] <HazRPG> does audacity convert ogg to wave or something? I Just got a messaging saying I've run out of space on /
[20:01] <AlanBell> audacity will uncompress the ogg into memory
[20:02] <shauno> that could still cause problems with a 6-hour ogg
[20:02] <HazRPG> 6hr ogg was fine...
[20:03] <HazRPG> because gotta remember its got blank spaces in between
[20:03] <HazRPG> it just didn't like me putting in ALL the ogg's I have
[20:03] <HazRPG> (one channel for each person)
[20:04] <shauno> silences are only cool when they're compress.  if that's in pcm/wave in memory, that's going to be .. expensive
[20:06] <gord> HazRPG, yeah it pretty much converts to wav and puts it in /tmp
[20:07] <AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UUKElectionProcess messing with this at the moment
[20:07] <shauno> 22k mono's going to be roughly 2.5meg/minute?  so 6 hours would be 900Mb per person.   3600Mb per if it's 44k stereo.  you're likely to run into some real limits of how many channels you can mux that way
[20:08] <HazRPG> I see
[20:08] <HazRPG> I knew I should have given /tmp its own partitions xD
[20:08] <ali1234> audacity converts everything you add to the project to pcm for fast editing
[20:09] <ali1234> it uses some custom file format for it
[20:10] <exobuzz> HazRPG, just mount it elsewhere ?
[20:10] <shauno> I wonder if you could do it with whatever the audiodaemon-de-jour is.  'play' a bunch of files at once, and point the output at | oggenc
[20:16] <HazRPG> exobuzz: hmm, never thought of that
[20:17] <shauno> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man1/oggz-merge.1.html     this could be interesting
[20:17] <shauno> "Similarly,  using  oggz-merge on a collection of Ogg Vorbis audio files will create a big  Ogg  file  with  all  the  songs  in  parallel,  ie. interleaved  for  simultaneous playback
[20:19] <shauno> (no promises, it's a google result not experience)
[20:19] <exobuzz> anyone here used unity 2d ? i might be being stupid but i cant work out how to add a new application to it heh
[20:20] <exobuzz> pretty unstable still. well i guess its still wip
[20:21] <willy1977> exobuzz, definitely wip... I went back to classic :)
[20:21] <exobuzz> yeh. shame though since it could work well on this touchscreen device
[20:22] <exobuzz> i need to work out how to switch on compositing even though im using unity 2d too
[20:25] <exobuzz> seems that  its not advised/tested to run unity2d compiz. seems a mistake - they are assuming if you can run compiz then unity 3d will work, but there are gfxcards/drivers that compiz works but unity 3d doesnt
[20:25] <exobuzz> like the o2 joggler
[20:25] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/Elections does that look OK?
[20:27] <AlanBell> daubers: ^^
[20:28] <czajkowski> why do ye mention the LCoC and the CoC ?
[20:28] <czajkowski> or snippets of it?
[20:29] <daubers> AlanBell: Perfect :)
[20:29] <daubers> czajkowski: Sets the scene
[20:29] <AlanBell> czajkowski: because we don't have fixed terms
[20:29] <czajkowski> AlanBell: perhaps a way then would be to have a fixed term
[20:29] <czajkowski> say 2 cycles = 1 year
[20:30] <czajkowski> would encourage more people to take part and step up
[20:31] <daubers> czajkowski: We struggled for volunteers in the last round... that sounds like a heap of trouble :)
[20:31] <czajkowski> yeah we did
[20:31] <czajkowski> because we let the leadership go on for a long time
[20:31] <czajkowski> perhaps forcing people to step up might be a way to get more involvement tbh
[20:31] <daubers> czajkowski: Also, since yu'd be changinging the status quo, it'd have to go to a meeting and what not to be approved. Can't just write it in now
[20:32] <daubers> czajkowski: Also, those two paragraphs help put people in mind that they should step down gracefully
[20:32] <czajkowski> yes but it just seems ilogical tbh that you just elect a leader and when and if they get bored snad step down you go through this process.
[20:32] <czajkowski> daubers: trust me I've seen those two paragprahs used to get people to step down and it usually ends up the loco council having to step in
[20:33] <daubers> We haven't really ever had a problem with it (historically)
[20:33] <AlanBell> not neccessarily
[20:33] <AlanBell> czajkowski: you only see the times when you have to step in
[20:33] <willy1977> surely though uuk is a global domination  outfit run by someone in a secret volcano island?
[20:33] <AlanBell> if it works properly you wouldn't know about it
[20:33] <AlanBell> willy1977: quite right
[20:34]  * AlanBell sits in a big chair stroking a chicken
[20:34] <daubers> AlanBell: I can actually picture that quite vividly...
[20:34] <Pendulum> could you be having issues getting volunteers *because* people think it could be a multi-year commitment?
[20:34] <nigelb> AlanBell: I dunno why, but I can picture it quite clearly.
[20:34] <AlanBell> we didn't have issues getting volunteers
[20:34] <czajkowski> AlanBell: daubers I'm just saying it may be a case that leaving the leadership term so long  people dont wnat to step on toes or know when they can step up
[20:34] <willy1977> equally could you have problems getting volunteers because it definitely is a fixed term?
[20:35] <czajkowski> just doesnt seem right . sorry.
[20:35] <AlanBell> we got one quite easily, and it was uncontested
[20:35] <czajkowski> AlanBell: yup and perhaps had we a fixed term people cna say ok, well I'm busy now but at least in  years time I can put myself forward
[20:35] <daubers> czajkowski: I'm happy for a discussion and what not too happen around the issue. Hoever, I have no strong feeling on the issue at all
[20:35] <czajkowski> nods
[20:36] <willy1977> czajkowski, I think you're making fair points how about we put it on the meeting agend for the next one? or something like that?
[20:36] <HazRPG> hmm that was odd
[20:36] <HazRPG> I hope I don't see that again!
[20:36] <willy1977> what AlanBell stroking his chicken?
[20:36] <HazRPG> almost didn't come back onto the internet then
[20:36] <HazRPG> ironically, I had an ipv6 though xD
[20:36] <AlanBell> I don't mind fixed terms, however I do think the "step down gracefully" thing is a viable alternative to fixed terms
[20:36] <AlanBell> willy1977: I have pet chickens
[20:36] <HazRPG> ipv4 decided to die, and all the internet with it
[20:37] <czajkowski> AlanBell: that assumes the person will get tired and step down, what about peoplemnitchying to help out and lead
[20:37] <czajkowski> this is no reflection on you
[20:37] <czajkowski> just I think having no set time is a bit well... daft
[20:37] <AlanBell> and bond villains stroke cats
[20:37] <willy1977> AlanBell: I got it ;) do you have some layers?
[20:38] <AlanBell> czajkowski: maybe in a few years time someone like you or popey will have a quiet word with me and point out it is time to go
[20:38] <czajkowski> who knows
[20:38] <BigRedS> you can quite easily emulate no-fixed-terms by a) re-electing the same guy again because he's good and b) letting him step down early and elect a replacement
[20:38] <AlanBell> willy1977: yes, three of them
[20:38] <czajkowski> anyways battery is about to die and I need to go and rest
[20:38] <AlanBell> not laying that well at the moment
[20:39] <DJones> Does anybody know why a dual core processor shows up as having 4 cores under system monitor
[20:39] <AlanBell> I keep telling them they have to step up production or it will be chicken tikka massala night at our house
[20:39] <AlanBell> DJones: dual core hyperthreaded
[20:39] <DJones> AlanBell: Thanks, that explains it, I didn't think the i3's were quad core
[20:39] <BigRedS> yeah, the kernel's bad at telling the difference between hyperthreading and genuine different cores
[20:40] <willy1977> kind of like "I don't want to be a pie, I don't like gravy?" any idea what may be causing the girls to ... err... you know.
[20:41] <DJones> I must add the laptop to the hardware database
[20:41] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: someone on the radio was talking about that earlier in the week, Gardener's Question Time possibly
[20:41] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: "More eggs, or less hens!"
[20:42] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: yes, there was a programme about it last week, I was at a customer at the time
[20:42] <AlanBell> wonder if it is on the web somewhere
[20:42] <willy1977> oh wasn't that on radio 4?
[20:42] <AlanBell> yup
[20:43] <DJones> AlanBell: Did you see that new open source licence "CDL - Chicken Dance Licence" when I read about it, I thought of you
[20:43] <AlanBell> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zsdsb
[20:44] <AlanBell> I did DJones!
[20:44] <willy1977> AlanBell: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00zsdsb/Attila_the_Hen/
[20:44] <willy1977> ah ok.
[20:44] <willy1977> :)
[20:45] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: that looks like it
[20:45] <d3ngar_> ChanServ Help
[20:45] <d3ngar_> AUTH
[20:45] <d3ngar_> !AUTH
[20:46] <AlanBell> d3ngar_: not here!
[20:46] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: although I'm sure GQT was talking about it too - I often only get to hear odd bits of shows as I go from site to site
[20:46] <AlanBell> d3ngar_: /msg chanserv help
[20:46] <d3ngar_> AlanBell: thx
[20:46] <willy1977> gordonjcp: Yeah, I'm the same, although I don't do as much lately.
[20:46] <willy1977> tavelling I mean.
[20:48] <d3ngar_> AlanBell: What is the AUTH command?
[20:49] <AlanBell> !register
[20:49] <AlanBell> info in there somewhere
[20:49] <willy1977> are you trying to register your nick?
[20:49] <d3ngar_> No
[20:49] <d3ngar_> I registered it already
[20:50] <willy1977> I'll shut up then :D
[20:50] <AlanBell> d3ngar_: ah, I see your problem
[20:50] <AlanBell> !ghost
[20:51] <d3ngar_> Just this client is new and I can't remember how to authenticate
[20:51] <AlanBell> freenode things d3ngar is still logged on
[20:51] <AlanBell> thinks
[20:52] <willy1977> and once that is cleared you should be able to identify with /msg nickserv identify <password>
[20:52] <d3ngar_> good stuff
[21:04]  * AlanBell is enjoying atilla the hen
[21:18] <willy1977> think I'm finally there with me new blog :)
[21:20] <AlanBell> willy1977: url?
[21:21] <willy1977> http://www.leemwilliams.co.uk
[21:21] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ubuntu-uk.org/planet/ add it there and it will go on planet.ubuntu-uk.org
[21:21] <willy1977> done
[21:22] <AlanBell> so i tis
[21:22] <AlanBell> nice theme
[21:22] <Daviey> HazRPG, I can haz sage.
[21:23] <willy1977> I'm not a designer so I have doctored that to work for me, have only tried it in FF4 though... must try it in IE when I get a chance there's a min-height which I think will cause IE to spit it's dummy out...
[21:23] <shauno> I'm a rather fat feathery owl called Sage ...
[21:24] <Azelphur> Daviey: btw we're all still having fun in the waiting for an invoice from Daviey club :p
[21:25] <Daviey> :o
[21:25] <Azelphur> indeed
[21:25] <Azelphur> it's an awesome club, been established for 3 years now? :D
[21:26] <Myrtti> meh, why do I always get hungry at the most unconvinient times
[21:27] <Myrtti> (notice no questionmark)
[21:32] <shauno> yummy.  I get to build my own mutt.  sigh.
[21:32] <mgdm> the ones in the pet shop not good enough?
[21:32]  * mgdm runs
[21:39] <BigRedS> they're non-free; you can't take them apart, modify them, then put them back together again
[21:39] <BigRedS> well, you *can*, but they never work afterwards
[21:39] <shauno> you can hardly blame the pet shop for a faulty compiler
[21:48] <shauno> ugh, using slang instead of ncurses just brings a different set of bugs
[21:48]  * daubers gets his CSS beating stick out of the cupboard
[21:53]  * willy1977 hides just in case...
[21:53]  * penguin42 thinks he can play most of 'Wargames' from memory by now
[22:14] <matti> Hah.
[22:15]  * penguin42 just watched it again; nice way to relax after having been at u^3 all day
[22:17] <zleap> yay i got that on video somewhere (wargames)
[22:18] <willy1977> how about a game global thermo nuclear war?
[22:18] <willy1977> *of
[22:18] <zleap> yes
[22:19] <zleap> how about a nice game of chess
[22:19] <zleap> ?
[22:19] <willy1977> probably for the best...
[22:19] <zleap> yeah
[22:20] <zleap> i found a dos game called globa nuclear war once
[22:20] <zleap> i managed to accidently shoot down a missile over london :(
[22:21] <willy1977> oops
[22:22] <zleap> well russia sent a icbm towards me and i launched an intecept missile thing,
[22:22] <zleap> so that was 7m killed, then 250m which was the pop of russia
[22:23] <zleap> it was more text based than graphical
[22:23] <zleap> its odd those old games as it gives you names of cities at the time which of course have changed now, and countries of course,
[22:26] <exobuzz> not the wargames game but this one was fun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_War_%28video_game%29
[22:28] <zleap> Ronnie Raygun lol
[22:32] <zleap> spooky that the 3 rd and 4th character in the list are like still around and in the same postition as 1985
[23:09] <andylock1an> howdy all