[00:00] <Rocket2DMn> "Changing the boot menu timeout" and "Changing the default operating system to boot"
[00:01] <XDevHald> Aye, Easy to change boot timeout and moving the default up or down.
[00:02] <Rocket2DMn> I havent fiddled with grub2 to write that documentation for grub2
[00:02] <Rocket2DMn> I wonder if we might need a string freeze exception to get that stuff in there
[00:02] <Rocket2DMn> unless we can cram it in before the freeze
[00:02] <XDevHald> The freeze is on the 1st right?
[00:02] <Rocket2DMn> yeah
[00:03] <XDevHald> If you can get or find me a landing page for Grub2 I can pull up the work and have it done before the 1st
[00:03] <Rocket2DMn> here's the bug i filed - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/437446
[00:03] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 437446 in ubuntu-docs "Need documentation on Grub2" [Undecided,New]
[00:03] <Rocket2DMn> there is a link to the Grub2 page on the team wiki
[00:04] <Rocket2DMn> afaik, that is the only ubuntu documentation on grub2 right now
[00:04] <XDevHald> Yeah I see it. hmmm
[00:05] <XDevHald> They already have the Timeout added on the "Errors" sub-menu, pretty self-explanitory. They do not however have Error 15
[00:06] <Rocket2DMn> I don't think we document troubleshooting grub errors in the system documentation
[00:06] <Rocket2DMn> there is also stuff about grub in the serverguide which needs to be added to.
[01:24] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, I thought you were going to change the title back to my version on the firewall document - "Firewall and network monitoring"
[01:24] <Rocket2DMn> not a big deal either way
[01:55] <XDevHald> Hey Rocket. I appreciate you guys letting me in the team but I will have to move on as this appears to not be my field of work anymore.
[02:09] <Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, sorry to hear that.  Why do you feel that way?
[02:09] <XDevHald> I have tried to gather my work, and of course having a 1 year old boy and married it is very difficult to even think.
[02:11] <Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, if you can't get the grub2 documentation, that's ok
[02:11] <Rocket2DMn> we don't normally work in a time crunch like this
[02:12] <Rocket2DMn> There is other documentation type work you can do if you want
[02:12] <XDevHald> Yeah, I know which is why I found it weird for a gathered doc before freeze.
[02:12] <Rocket2DMn> don't worry about that then
[02:13] <Rocket2DMn> you can still make changes after string freeze, they just won't go into Karmic, they will go into Lucid
[02:13] <XDevHald> Sounds great Rocket. I haven't touched the wiki in 3 years, I'll need a little help (coding I am a guru at) but just guidance on what to do and what is need and where to go from there.
[02:13] <Rocket2DMn> you can also do wiki work if you want
[02:13] <XDevHald> I'll stick with the wiki work.
[02:13] <XDevHald> Sys I'll leave for you guys.
[02:13] <Rocket2DMn> sure, that's actually where I do most of my work
[02:14] <Rocket2DMn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
[02:15] <Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
[02:15] <Rocket2DMn> we use tags these days to mark pages that need work
[02:16] <XDevHald> Excellent. Now how do I know what needs work and etc. Just need a starting point and I can go from there.
[02:18] <Rocket2DMn> each tag section has a link - "List of pages with this tag. "
[05:53] <korin43> Hi, I have to write a short-ish manual for a technical writing class and i was wondering if anyone has an idea. I'm relatively good at this. I could write a manual on packaging, but the updates needed to the packing guide aren't enough to get a good grade in the class. I also thought about kernel compiling, which needs a better manual badly, but I think it would be too complicated for the teacher.
[07:20] <Savvy> hi guys
[07:23] <Savvy> im a newbie to linux i just wanted to know tht how can i edit my shell?
[08:42] <mdke> morning all
[08:44] <mdke> korin43: we have a list of current tasks here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks - if anything takes your fancy, then feel free to contact the mailing list. Some people might already be working on particular items so it's good to contact the list first
[08:57] <SpacePigeon> Hi
[08:57] <SpacePigeon> I am willing to join the documentation team.
[09:00] <SpacePigeon> Is there any project I can start helping on?
[09:05] <mdke> SpacePigeon: yes, there is always plenty to do. You should find information about tasks and how to contribute on the pages beginning at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[09:05] <mdke> SpacePigeon: but feel free to ask any questions if you have any, either here or on the mailing list
[09:05] <SpacePigeon> Ok
[09:05] <SpacePigeon> I am browsing a Taks wiki page under the DocumentationTeam link, thanks for pointing me to the right direction
[09:07] <SpacePigeon> mdke, so, I went into a launchpad bug page. Should I start working on only the "New" items?
[09:07] <SpacePigeon> or on the confirmed?
[09:09] <mdke> SpacePigeon: either is fine, as long as no one else is working on them
[09:10] <SpacePigeon> mdke, nice. Ill start right off..
[09:11] <mdke> SpacePigeon: awesome!
[09:12] <SpacePigeon> mdke, is there some way I can filter english and spanish bugs only?
[09:13] <mdke> SpacePigeon: all bugs should be in English. If they aren't then we usually close them because we can't understand them as a team
[09:13] <mdke> SpacePigeon: the exception to that is bugs in translations which might be in the applicable language
[09:13] <SpacePigeon> oh ok... so all tasks for DocumentationTeam are in english...
[09:15] <mdke> yep
[09:16] <mdke> we also have a lot of translation if you are interested in that; that is managed by the Ubuntu translation teams
[09:16] <mdke> they translate Ubuntu software *and* documentation
[09:17] <SpacePigeon> Yeah I might join one of those
[09:17] <SpacePigeon> Tasks don't seem very well organized in the launchpad buglist
[09:17] <SpacePigeon> Yeah I think I might as well start translating documentation
[09:18] <mdke> they aren't that organised, unfortunately
[09:18] <mdke> the tasks I mean.
[09:19] <mdke> have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations for translation info
[09:19]  * mdke -> shower
[10:35] <SpacePigeon> mdke, Because you are still here, I notify you that I was working on this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SuspendHowtoNew
[18:19] <SpacePigeon> mdke, hi again
[18:19] <Zachk18> hello SpacePigeon
[18:21] <SpacePigeon> hi Zachk18
[18:21] <SpacePigeon> yeah, I submitted some documentation draft yesterday, do you want to check it?
[18:21] <Zachk18> ah sure...are you on a doc team?
[18:21] <SpacePigeon> http://help.ubuntu.com/community/SuspendHowtoNew
[18:21] <SpacePigeon> not yet
[18:22] <SpacePigeon> I am volunteering
[18:22] <Zachk18> are you on any teams?
[18:22] <missaugustina> SpacePigeon: send an email to the ubuntu-doc mailing list please.
[18:22] <SpacePigeon> oh ok
[18:22] <SpacePigeon> thats how it works, nice
[18:22] <missaugustina> SpacePigeon: Anytime you want to work on something, send an email to the list to let people know.
[18:22] <SpacePigeon> Oh I sent one? Maybe the system did
[18:23] <missaugustina> SpacePigeon: Someone else might already be working on it.
[18:23] <Zachk18> SpacePigeon, i'll still review it for you. and i'll let you know..
[18:23] <SpacePigeon> missaugustina, yeah, I went into the launchpad tasklist and assigned myself to the bug (is that the correct thing to do?) and then that sent an email to the list
[18:23] <missaugustina> SpacePigeon: I didn't see an email from you but I will check again.
[18:23] <SpacePigeon> yeah, i'm wolter
[18:23] <missaugustina> SpacePigeon: Check with the list before assigning yourself a bug.
[18:24] <Wolter> missaugustina, will do
[18:25] <missaugustina> Wolter: the only  reason I say that is because I've done that before, assigned myself a bug only to find out that there are other folks working on something related to what I wanted to work on.
[18:25] <Wolter> Yes, I perfectly understand :)
[18:27] <missaugustina> This is the wiki page for the Docteam - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/
[18:27] <missaugustina> This is the info on the mailing list - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[18:27] <Wolter> missaugustina, thanks
[18:28] <missaugustina> Wolter: np :)
[18:28] <missaugustina> The wiki is  especially challenging because several people could be working on one thing and not know it.
[18:28] <missaugustina> We use the list as the main point of communication to avoid situations like that.
[18:29] <Wolter> Oh oops yeah I joined the team yesterday at launchpad
[18:29] <Wolter> good to know
[18:29] <missaugustina> Yeah lots of areas, it can be confusing to keep track of ;)
[18:30] <missaugustina> I filter my emails so anything to the ubuntu-doc list is labeled one way and launchpad bugs are labeled somewhere else.
[18:30] <missaugustina> Sometimes LP bugs can be high traffic especially this close to a release, so people might miss if you are assigning yourself a bug.
[18:35] <missaugustina> Wolter: what is the bug that you assigned yourself?
[18:36] <Wolter> missaugustina, a bug about SuspendHowto being a deprecated document
[18:36] <missaugustina> Is there a bug id#?
[18:36] <missaugustina> This was in Launchpad, right?
[18:37] <missaugustina> I was looking for the notification in my email, but can't find anything.
[18:49] <missaugustina> Wolter: Thanks for helping out! Just be sure to email the list and let folks know about your submission :)
[18:49] <Wolter> missaugustina, yeah I just did
[18:49] <Wolter> haha
[19:52] <Zachk18> shaunm, Gwaihir hello
[19:53] <Gwaihir> hi
[19:54] <Zachk18> so...welcome if it's your first
[20:01] <Wolter> hey Zachk18, how are you doing?
[20:02] <Zachk18> Wolter, hey
[20:02] <Zachk18> Wolter, anything you need?
[20:03] <Wolter> Zachk18, just wondering if you saw my draft yesterday
[20:03] <Wolter> I understand if you have no time for it, I already linked it in the mailing list
[21:52] <Simone1> Ciao volevo sapere se c'è Alessio Treglia in questa chat avrei bisogno di parlargli in pvt
[22:24] <Zachk18> shaunm, welcome


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[00:16] <Keybuk> popey: are you sure it's not just checking the disk?
[00:16]  * Keybuk hadn't put the progress indicator in yet
[00:16] <popey> heh
[00:17] <Keybuk> what does SAK W say?
[00:18] <Keybuk> Alt+SysRq 8
[00:18] <popey> I'm on a live cd atm
[00:18] <popey> will faff more in the morning.. sorry to bother you
[00:18] <Keybuk> Alt+SysRq T
[00:18] <Keybuk> rh gith
[00:18] <Keybuk> no probs
[01:01] <popey> yes, all looks okay, it probably was a fsck as you suspected Keybuk
[19:43] <Daviey> Keybuk: hmm, i'm not sure if it's related, but now getting an error along the lines of @mountall: cannot write pid file: read only filesystem@ or similar
[19:43] <Daviey> gah, damn live enviroment .. @ should be "
[19:43] <Daviey> that is with the non-staging PPA
[20:01] <Daviey> Keybuk: Ah, it seems it was possibly silently fsck'ing..  Guess i should have just waited, rather than booting into a live enviroment :)
[20:01] <Daviey> ho hum.


[02:54] <BobJonkman> dscassel, did  you announce your good news here? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-ca/2010-November/007775.html
[16:38] <dscassel> Oh, right.  Hey, team, we're re-approved! :)
[18:47] <IdleOne> dscassel: Good job everybody :)


[03:33] <ScottK> yofel: The 12.04 dvd's should still be downloadable.
[03:37] <shadeslayer> ScottK: they're MIA
[03:37] <shadeslayer> I did see some DVD's , but no proper release DVD
[03:39] <shadeslayer> more specifically, nothing here http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/dvd/
[03:39] <shadeslayer> amrhf is MIA as well, no idea where the images went tbh
[08:58] <shadeslayer> ScottK: yofel Riddell I've emailed the release team, let's see what they can do
[10:53] <kubotu> ::workspace-bugs:: [1013626] systemsettings crashed with ImportError in /usr/share/kde4/apps/language-selector/language... @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013626 (by Xavier Besnard)
[17:03] <kubotu> ::qt-bugs:: [1041586] package libqt4-declarative 4:4.8.1-0ubuntu4.2 failed to install/upgrade: libqt4-declarativ... @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1041586 (by caceres)
[19:16] <shadeslayer> DVD's are up, could someone update the download page ?
[21:33] <yofel_> shadeslayer: I'll do it
[21:41] <yofel_> shadeslayer: done
[21:41] <shadeslayer> th,
[21:41] <shadeslayer> thx
[21:43] <mparillo> Does that mean we should have a news item?
[22:00] <uglyoldbob> hi im looking to find the source code for the binary /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kscreenlocker so i can make some changes and submit a patch
[22:06] <xnox> uglyoldbob: dpkg -S /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kscreenlocker -> will give you binary package
[22:06] <xnox> uglyoldbob: $ apt-cache show $binary | grep Source
[22:06] <xnox> will give you source package
[22:06] <xnox> uglyoldbob: $ apt-get source $srcpackage
[22:06] <xnox> will give you source code
[22:09] <uglyoldbob> so, there's already a ~/.kde/Autostart and ~/.kde/shutdown, I want to add ~/.kde/lock_screen and ~/.kde/unlock_screen folders by modifying kscreenlocker
[22:12] <uglyoldbob> xnox: thanks for the help on retrieving source code
[22:16] <rdieter> uglyoldbob: seems to me hooking kscreenlocker events into systemsettings->applications&system notifications may get what you want too, then you get audio, speech, run-command, popups implementations for free
[22:17] <rdieter> i looked, was a little surprised it wasn't already there.
[22:20] <uglyoldbob> when i use the "run command" option for Screen unlocked and specify a bash script, how do i tell what user the screen was locked/unlocked for?
[22:21] <rdieter> the script will run in that users' session,  so $USER  ?
[22:22] <rdieter> uglyoldbob: is "Screen unlocked" event already there, and i just didn't see it?
[22:22] <uglyoldbob> yeah, im not sure if it does what i need though
[22:27] <uglyoldbob> well i got it to run a command, but the script does not have the information need (the username)
[22:33] <rdieter> uglyoldbob: USER environment var isn't defined?
[22:34] <rdieter> KDE_SESSION_UID should be there too at least
[22:35] <uglyoldbob> applications&system notifications is a per user setting or global setting?
[22:36] <rdieter> both (i think), there can be global defaults, and local user settings can override those
[22:37] <uglyoldbob> how do i change these without using the gui?
[22:37] <rdieter> per user ones are generally of the form:  ~/.kde/share/config/foo.notifyrc
[22:39] <uglyoldbob> ok i see that setting, can an event do more than one execute?
[22:40] <rdieter> for example, I just set konversation highlights to trigger a popup,  and now I have  ~/.kde/share/config/konversation.notifyrc containing: [Event/highlight]  Action=Sound|Popup
[22:40] <rdieter> uglyoldbob: I envision > 1 may be problematic, but you  could try:  command1; command2
[22:46] <uglyoldbob> im working on some scripts that will allow irexec and lircrcd for each user
[23:31] <uglyoldbob> i can't get kscreenlocker [Event/unlocked] to execute a script [Event/locked] works fine
[23:34] <uglyoldbob> hmm, setting it to log works for both events
[23:38] <uglyoldbob> hmm just a mistake on my part i have to find


[03:02] <crazed> holy f
[03:02] <crazed> part-handler
[03:02] <crazed> there's some serious power here
[03:02] <crazed> i can write my own mime-type handler to handle chef's json attributes
[03:05] <crazed> if you include a part hanlder, does that ruin the pre-existing cloud-init support for various mime types?
[04:16] <crazed> hm having problems with user-data on the ubuntu 10.10 ami
[04:16] <crazed> http://ubuntu-cloud.pastebin.com/LwgRX710
[04:16] <crazed> doesn't seem to set the date or anything really
[04:19] <crazed> cloud-init.log http://ubuntu-cloud.pastebin.com/n9rRgww5
[05:19] <smoser> crazed, how did you make the multipart file ?
[05:26] <smoser> crazed, i'm wondering if it might not like your dos line feeds.
[05:30] <smoser> crazed, so, i downloaded your pastebin, then manually separated into 4 files (using vim), then
[05:30] <smoser> write-mime-multipart ./part-handler.py:text/part-handler ./node.json:text/chef-attributes ./solo.rb:text/chef-solo ./cloud-config.txt:text/cloud-config > ../user-data.txt.new
[05:30] <smoser> and launched with that user-data.txt.new as user-data-file, and i think it had the affect you wanted.
[05:33] <smoser> resultant user-data at http://paste.ubuntu.com/574292/
[05:34] <smoser> crazed, but realize that 'output:
[05:34] <smoser>   all: "> /tmp/cloud-init.log"' is only in natty
[14:14] <crazed> oh really?
[14:14] <crazed> thanks for the tips
[14:14] <crazed> smoser: i used write-mime-multipart the same way you did there
[14:16] <smoser> crazed, well, it did "work for me" when i tested it.
[14:16] <crazed> that's actually awesome
[14:16] <crazed> what AMI did you use?
[14:16] <crazed> or were you on euca
[14:17] <crazed> http://groups.google.com/group/ec2ubuntu/browse_thread/thread/8eb2f732e03b0334
[14:17] <crazed> has more details of what i did
[14:17] <smoser> i did it on a private cloud. but used maverick
[14:17] <crazed> hmm
[14:18] <crazed> i'm going to give it another try
[14:22] <crazed> also i did notice that write-mime-multipart wasn't in the bzr repo under tools anymore?
[14:23] <crazed> i wound up running it from a machine that had cloud-init
[14:24] <crazed> 0.5.15-0ubuntu3 is the version of cloud-init i'm running
[14:26] <smoser> its in cloud-utils now
[14:26] <smoser> crazed,
[14:26] <smoser> and fwiw, do not write log to /tmp
[14:26] <smoser> or the tmp cleaner will clean it
[14:27] <crazed> hm alright, i was just seeing if it would work
[14:27] <smoser> ie, you'll start writing there early in boot, and then  aprocess that does an 'rm -Rf /tmp/*' (effectively) will remove your file
[14:27] <smoser> that wont work for 10.10
[14:27] <smoser> timezone, final_message, and output are all 11.04 only.
[14:27] <crazed> ah
[14:28] <crazed> where is the output of the parthandler print messages supposed to go? /var/log/cloud-init.log?
[14:28] <crazed> in 10.10 that is
[14:29] <crazed> hm i've copied your multi part file, still don't get the part-handler to run it appears
[14:32] <crazed> is there a verbose way of initiating the cloud-init run, without relaunching instances?
[14:50] <photerran> smoser: i've been using cloud-config to bootstrap machines in EC2 for the last couple months, and just ran into an issue yesterday for which i'd like to offer some feedback.  it seems the security.ubuntu.com repository is overwhelmed with traffic (since at least yesterday morning) and this causes cloudinit to die while waiting to connect (for cloud-config's apt_update or apt_upgrade).  Using the EC2 mirror for the
[14:50] <photerran> security repository seems to work just fine, but apt_mirror has no effect on the security repository location.
[14:52] <photerran> besides that one small issue cloudinit & cloud-config are great and I'm excited about the new features coming in natty, thank you!
[14:52] <crazed> they do seem pretty powerful, just wish i could get my part-handler to work :)
[14:52] <kim0> crazed: I had written this on multipart handlers, might be helpful http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2011/01/advanced-cloud-init-custom-handlers.html
[14:53] <crazed> kim0: that's where i got most of my info from
[14:53] <crazed> very good stuff there
[14:53] <kim0> hehe, ok glad then :)
[14:53] <crazed> i see the part handler getting output to /var/lib/cloud/data/plugin
[14:53] <crazed> but it doesn't seem to actually run
[14:53] <crazed> i see nothing in the logs, so i'm not sure what's goin gon
[14:54] <crazed> OH
[14:54] <crazed> it's in teh console output
[14:55] <crazed> ah my python syntax is off lol
[14:55]  * crazed has been using too much ruby lately
[14:56]  * kim0 likes snakes not gems
[14:56] <crazed> i like chef for config management
[14:56] <crazed> python is pretty nice though
[15:02] <photerran> kim0: just wanted to add i've also learned a lot from your blog, thank you
[15:02] <crazed> oh wow you're in egypt?
[15:03] <smoser> crazed, i often do 'rm -Rf /var/lib/cloud && reboot'
[15:03] <smoser> if you want to change your user data, then you have to use the 'seed' stuff
[15:03] <crazed> hmm
[15:03] <smoser> https://groups.google.com/group/ec2ubuntu/browse_thread/thread/d4d51238a2afb55b
[15:04] <crazed> oh i did see that thread too
[15:04] <crazed> should have read it :)
[15:07] <crazed> smoser: in 10.10 is it possible to get script output elsewhere besides the console? or is that natty only at this point
[15:07] <crazed> just takes amazon more time to display the output than it does for me to login and check files
[15:09] <smoser> yeah, its annoying.
[15:09] <smoser> in 10.10, any script or program you run, just have it redirect its own output to a file elsewhere rather that writing to stdout
[15:09] <smoser> ie
[15:09] <smoser> #!/bin/sh
[15:09] <crazed> ah i know what you mena, that's what i was doing originally
[15:09] <smoser> exec >/root/my.log 2>&1
[15:10] <crazed> then i had this idea to separate the node attributes file from the script
[15:10] <crazed> to make things more portable
[15:11] <smoser> photerran, hm.. i don't really knwo what to say about that.
[15:11] <crazed> yay part-handler is now working for me
[15:12] <smoser> yesterday the security mirrors were *really* slammed
[15:16] <photerran> smoser: indeed they were.  i was thinking it would be nice to be able to set the security repository location in cloud-config (apt_mirror_security?) or just using the EC2 mirror as is done for the other repository locations...
[15:17] <crazed> smoser: is there an order in which things are ran? part-handler, user-scripts, etc
[15:17] <smoser> apt_mirror_security might be ok, with an explicit warning on it.
[15:17] <smoser> photerran, the reason they don't do that is that they want security fixes out as fast as possible
[15:17] <smoser> and mirrors lag
[15:17] <smoser> crazed, part-hander is "very early" . actually while cloud-init is running and consuming metadata
[15:18] <smoser> user-scripts are "rc-local" like
[15:19] <crazed> awesome
[15:19] <crazed> that should work out how i want then
[15:22] <photerran> imho, using the EC2 mirror would get the updates out faster than this
[15:24] <smoser> part-handlers can block boot entirely
[15:24] <smoser> just fyi.
[15:24] <photerran> maybe all the EC2 machines out there are what is causing the extraordinary congestion on security.ubuntu.com
[15:24] <crazed> smoser: how so?
[15:24] <kim0> photerran: oh thanks!
[15:24] <smoser> photerran, right, but it takes time to propogate to the mirrors.
[15:24] <smoser> its originally published to security, then the mirrors sync from that
[15:30] <crazed> hmm damn it
[15:30] <crazed> missing ppa
[15:31] <photerran> ah i see.  do you think there's any chance for getting the updates published to the EC2 mirrors when they're published to security?  know where I might go to suggest that to the right people?
[15:40] <smoser> crazed, they can hang block boot, ie by 'sleep 3600'
[15:40] <smoser> but i fyou stack trace in one, it shouldn't screw up anything else in cloud-init
[15:40] <smoser> did it ?
[15:40] <smoser> ie, if cloud-init did not catch the exception, please file a bug
[15:44] <crazed> oh no it didn't screw up anything else
[15:45] <crazed> i just wasn't seeing my syntax errors
[15:45] <crazed> since they were in the console output, i didn't think to check there
[15:59]  * kim0 rings a bell, Community meeting starting in 2 hours. All welcome to hangout and chat
[15:59] <crazed> what's that?
[16:03] <kim0> crazed: A chance for everyone to get to know everyone else
[16:03] <kim0> chat about how they're using ubuntu/cloud
[16:03] <crazed> where, here?
[16:03] <kim0> share info, have a few laughs :)
[16:03] <kim0> right here
[16:03] <kim0> in 2 hours
[16:03] <crazed> oh
[16:03] <crazed> i'll be here
[16:04] <kim0> awesome
[16:04] <kim0> photerran: You're welcome to attend as well
[16:04] <kim0> Everyone is of course :)
[16:04]  * kim0 jumps back to finishing his virtio blog entry
[16:05] <photerran> tyvm!  i intend to.
[16:05] <kim0> awesome :)
[16:10] <crazed> virtio!
[16:10] <crazed> what are you writing about it
[16:19] <kim0> crazed: just getting Windows7 installed over KVM with optimized virtio disk and network drivers
[16:19] <crazed> ah alright
[16:32] <crazed> http://ec2-72-44-58-95.compute-1.amazonaws.com/
[16:32] <crazed> :) fully configured using cloud-init, chef-solo, and drush
[16:32] <kim0> rock n roll :)
[17:16] <crazed> seriously impressed with this
[17:16] <crazed> now to try and scale it out using cloud formation
[17:21] <mrjazzcat> crazed: would love to hear your thoughts about the tools and process to get this running, if you have the time and inclination to write something down.
[17:22] <crazed> i'll be writing a blog post
[17:22] <crazed> probably tonight
[17:33] <patrickw_> Anyone know of problems installing sun jdk (6u24, 64bit, rpm format) in a chrooted loop device? I've been trying to get this installed but it hangs the loopback and I can't umount...
[17:35] <mrjazzcat> crazed: awesome, I'll look forward to that.  Can you point me to your blog so I can look for it?
[17:37] <crazed> mrjazzcat: http://allanfeid.com
[17:37] <mrjazzcat> crazed: thanks!
[18:00] <photerran> patrickw_: are you installing right from the partner repo?
[18:01]  * kim0 rings a bell .. Cloud community meeting starting
[18:01] <kim0> :)
[18:01] <kim0> any new faces around
[18:02] <kim0> let's all get to know each other
[18:02] <kim0> now everyone is silent hehe
[18:02]  * photerran is new here
[18:02] <kim0> photerran: hey o/
[18:03] <photerran> nice to meet you all
[18:03] <kim0> let's get to know each other better
[18:03] <kim0> can you introduce yourself please
[18:04] <photerran> well you can call me photerran, i'm a sysadmin and lately have been working on building a hosting platform in EC2 using ubuntu
[18:04] <kim0> building a hosting platform on top of ec2 ?
[18:05] <photerran> indeed
[18:05] <kim0> interesting stuff :)
[18:05] <kim0> photerran: do you offer VMs directly to your customers
[18:06] <photerran> no we provide a web service to ad agencies and i'm working on a new platform to run our custom application
[18:07] <kim0> hehe
[18:07] <kim0> awesome :)
[18:07] <kim0> crazed: howdy o/
[18:08] <photerran> i'm using cloudinit to bootstrap puppet to manages services & apps, and using glusterfs (on top of EBS and instance stores) to provide shared storage for different parts of the app
[18:08] <photerran> yeah it is awesome
[18:08] <photerran> really beats having to roll my own AMIs :)
[18:08] <kim0> indeed it does hehe
[18:08] <kim0> hmm that stuff sounds interesting
[18:09] <kim0> photerran: have you heard about cloud days
[18:09] <photerran> yeah about two hours ago hehe
[18:09] <kim0> hehe
[18:09] <kim0> ummm
[18:09] <kim0> photerran: what about giving a session
[18:10] <kim0> sharing the knowledge you've gained building that system basically
[18:10] <kim0> it's nothing hard or complicated
[18:10] <photerran> would this be over IRC?
[18:10] <kim0> Yep
[18:10] <kim0> just like this ;)
[18:11] <crazed> hmm
[18:11] <crazed> interesting
[18:11] <kim0> photerran: actually, if you join #ubuntu-classroom
[18:11] <kim0> there's a session going on right now
[18:11] <kim0> just to get a feel
[18:11] <kim0> it's part of Ubuntu Developer Week
[18:11] <kim0> cloud days is very similar to that
[18:11] <kim0> crazed: hey .. what's the interesting part :)
[18:11] <photerran> thanks i'll have a look
[18:12] <crazed> using gluster on ec2
[18:12] <crazed> how's the performance with that?
[18:13] <kim0> the first thing that came to my mind as well :)
[18:13] <kim0> hehe
[18:13] <photerran> do you want the long or the short answer?  lol
[18:13] <crazed> both haha
[18:13] <kim0> LOL
[18:13] <photerran> short answer is "not too bad"
[18:13] <photerran> long answer is...
[18:14] <photerran> it's latency sensitive, so performance increases as file size increases
[18:14] <crazed> hmm
[18:14] <photerran> if your files are 100kB+ then performance should be OK, but I'm using front-end caching in apache & varnish to make it better
[18:15] <crazed> what excatly are you storing on gluster?
[18:15] <crazed> static content or?
[18:16] <photerran> also, the speed seems to be limited by the EC2 LAN, not the instance size, so spreading the gluster volume out over more machines (and using the native gluster client) can get better aggregate throughput even tho single transfer rate may not be all that great
[18:16] <photerran> this is all very preliminary btw
[18:16] <photerran> YMMV of course
[18:17] <photerran> storing web content, HTML, JS, CSS, JPG, etc... the usual stuff
[18:19] <kim0> photerran: wonder if you can aggregate many little files into one bigger file to use the increased throughput
[18:19] <crazed> any reason you're not using s3 for that?
[18:19] <kim0> can't think of a way though
[18:20] <photerran> crazed: i'm a sysadmin not a developer.  thats a requirement of the app
[18:21] <kim0> photerran: did you play with ceph as an alternative
[18:22] <photerran> i read about it but it seems too new to bet the farm on
[18:22] <photerran> my conclusion at the time was "maybe when btrfs is ready for production"
[18:22] <smoser> kim0, nice work: http://cloud.ubuntu.com/ami/
[18:23] <smoser> the ap-northeast-1 images are there.
[18:23] <photerran> also i'm not too excited about having a metadata server... gluster is fully distributed
[18:23] <smoser> you beat alestic.com to it :)
[18:23] <kim0> hehe
[18:23] <kim0> smoser: oh northeast .. that's the Tokyo one
[18:23]  * smoser gives erichammond a rasberry
[18:23] <kim0> cool!
[18:23] <crazed> photerran: fair enough, same here actually. we deal with managing applications in the cloud, and typically will steer away from any shared filesystem usage as s3 gives you the added benefit of faster image loads (using asset host) and the ability to use cloudfront as a basic CDN. usually we will help teh devs understand what needs to be done an help migrate
[18:24] <smoser> kim0, yes. all our released images are there (not milestones though)
[18:24] <kim0> awesome :)
[18:24] <smoser> it sure seems to me like you're not caching though
[18:26] <kim0> smoser: you mean performance wise ?
[18:26] <smoser> yeah
[18:26] <smoser> just seems like "processing"
[18:26] <photerran> crazed: yeah we'd like to move in that direction, but we decided to migrate the legacy app first & develop those new features later
[18:26] <kim0> well .. it's a chance to have you look at the code
[18:27] <kim0> momento :)
[18:27]  * kim0 prepares to be embarrased
[18:27]  * smoser apologizes for interupting a conversation
[18:27] <crazed> lol
[18:28] <photerran> no appology needed
[18:28] <crazed> either way, it's cool to see people doing things with puppet
[18:28] <crazed> which i see is supported in cloudinit
[18:28] <crazed> personally i'm a fan of chef, so i've been working on getting a solid solution using the part-handler parts of cloudinit
[18:29] <crazed> only cool thing i have so far is the ability to launch a full dev environment of drupal 7 with any number of modules installed
[18:29] <photerran> well thats a start
[18:29] <crazed> it is, i have a decent chunk of chef cookbooks which i should be able to tie into relatively easily
[18:30] <crazed> then put that together with cloudformation to bring up larger environments, but i'm not sure how to handle making sure the various pieces exist
[18:30] <crazed> for example, there's a race condition, what if my database isn't up before i try to connect to it
[18:31] <crazed> i suppose i could just add some retrying in there
[18:33] <photerran> i have yet to try cloudformation, but it looks nice.  i'm hoping for better documentation before I dive in
[18:35] <kim0> crazed: I'm interested in what you describe as a race condition
[18:35] <kim0> so basically .. chef configs a bunch of machines
[18:35] <kim0> and starts a bunch of services
[18:35] <crazed> yes
[18:35] <kim0> but you have no way to ensure dependencies right
[18:35] <crazed> exactly
[18:35] <crazed> for example in a cloud formation stack, i have an RDS instance and an ec2 instance
[18:36] <kim0> nor pass info between machinse (DB passwords ..etc)
[18:36] <crazed> the ec2 instance is going to try and populate the rds instance database
[18:36] <crazed> but if it doesn't exist, that will fail
[18:36] <crazed> i added basic cloud formation support to fog recently, so i've been playing around with it
[18:37] <crazed> seems cool, but would really like to see some sort of control on how to make sure resources of the stack are available
[18:37] <photerran> hmm the main cloudformation web page suggests there is a way to do just that
[18:38] <photerran> under the "Easy to Use" section
[18:39] <crazed> really?
[18:39] <crazed> hm
[18:40] <crazed> i've only got some basic cloud formation templates
[18:40] <crazed> there's a lot of syntax there
[18:41] <photerran> btw, the cloudformation main page i mentioned is http://aws.amazon.com/cloudformation/
[18:42] <kim0> haven't checked that out yet .. do you have to write that template yourself
[18:43] <crazed> yes but there's a few of pre-written ones from amazon
[18:44] <photerran> it's brand new, announced on Friday, barely a week old
[18:45]  * kim0 tweets the new Tokyo Ubuntu images → http://twitter.com/#!/ubuntucloud   .. Thanks smoser
[18:45] <kim0> crazed: photerran if you guys are interested .. follow that twitter account
[18:47] <photerran> I havent yet jumped on the twitter bandwagon, but when i do, i will follow
[18:47] <photerran> until then i just check in on the web every once in a while
[18:48] <crazed> https://s3.amazonaws.com/cloudformation-templates-us-east-1/AutoScaledPHPWebServerWithMultiAZRDS-1.0.0.template
[18:48] <kim0> photerran: are you on the facebook bandwaggon ? hehe https://www.facebook.com/ubuntucloud
[18:49] <photerran> nope
[18:49]  * kim0 hugs photerran :) a clean sole
[18:49] <crazed> haha
[18:49] <crazed> still looking for this ability to depend on other resources.. bha
[18:49] <photerran> the whole shoe is clean
[18:49] <photerran> j/k
[18:50] <crazed> https://s3.amazonaws.com/cloudformation-templates-us-east-1/Drupal-NoSSH-1.0.0.template
[18:51] <photerran> crazed: do either of those templates show how to declare an EC2 -> RDS dependency?
[18:51] <crazed> not that i can see
[18:51] <patrickw_> photerran: I'm actually installing into a centos image, thus the rpm
[18:52] <crazed> hm it might be handled by some scripts on the AMI they're using
[18:53] <crazed> because i don't see any user data scripts to install drupal either
[18:53] <crazed> just basic userdata here
[18:57] <photerran> hopefully AWS will publish better docs soon, i suspect there's more to cloudformation than these templates show.  you might want to ask the question on the AWS forums in the mean time though
[19:01] <kim0> crazed: man, consider giving a session on chef automation as well .. sounds damn interesting :)
[19:03] <photerran> kim0: how often do you do these community meetings?
[19:05] <kim0> photerran: weekly same time
[19:05] <kim0> it's just a time for everyone to get together and talk
[19:05] <kim0> photerran: and crazed .. it would be great to mark your calendars
[19:06] <kim0> and try to make it every week
[19:06] <kim0> I'm trying to build some momentum around ubuntu/cloud which is for everyone's benefit really
[19:08] <photerran> ok cool.  i like it.  i've been using ubuntu a long time and am just now starting to get involved with the community.
[19:09] <photerran> until recently i've been using ubuntu personally & centos/rhel professionally, but that's changing as I mentioned earlier
[19:10]  * kim0 was a centos junkie for about 5 years ago
[19:10] <kim0> but I've been building some consistent respect for ubuntu server!
[19:10] <kim0> lost of innovative stuff really ..
[19:11] <kim0> and since we're still a small community .. every contribution counts :D if you're thinking about registering a session, "just do it" hehe
[19:12] <photerran> yeah its exciting.  my experience so far with ubuntu on EC2 has been very positive until yesterday when the congestion on security.ubuntu.com got in the way of spinning up new instances
[19:12]  * kim0 nods
[19:13] <kim0> smoser: any idea why do those mirrors melt .. it seems it has happened a few times already
[19:13] <kim0> can't we balance on a few
[19:14] <smoser> $ host us-east-1.ec2.archive.ubuntu.com
[19:14] <smoser> us-east-1.ec2.archive.ubuntu.com has address <IP_ADDRESS>
[19:14] <smoser> us-east-1.ec2.archive.ubuntu.com has address <IP_ADDRESS>
[19:14] <smoser> us-east-1.ec2.archive.ubuntu.com has address <IP_ADDRESS>
[19:14] <smoser> us-east-1.ec2.archive.ubuntu.com has address <IP_ADDRESS>
[19:14] <smoser> i have a ticket open.  they should not (as you say) melt. but yes, they have.
[19:14] <photerran> it was the default location for the security repo (in sources.list) that got me, as i mentioned to smoser earlier
[19:15] <photerran> changing it to the EC2 mirror works great, but that's not easily automated when cloudinit it bootstrapping an instance for the first time
[19:15] <photerran> is bootstrapping*
[19:19] <photerran> fwiw, in my case i'll be removing the apt_update & apt_upgrade from my cloud-config, leaving only the puppet agent stuff in there, and doing the apt_update & apt_upgrade later on in the process with puppet, after puppet has updated the sources.list
[19:19] <smoser> photerran, the easiest way to do it would be to do dns trickery
[19:20] <smoser> you can write security.ubuntu.com into /etc/hosts before apt comes through and updates. do that with a 'boothook' on maverick
[19:20] <smoser> this is not tested. but i think it would work.
[19:21] <photerran> ooh good idea, thank you
[19:21] <smoser> and if you try to intsall a package (puppet), then it will do an update.
[19:22] <photerran> ah yes that would have bitten me soon enough
[19:23] <crazed> kim0: i don't mind doing a session on chef automation, though i'm by no means 100% expert at chef
[19:23] <crazed> there's a lot to know about it
[19:23] <crazed> i use chef-solo, mostly because we don't have a subscription ot the opscode platform and the opensource chef-server doesn't support multiple clients that well
[19:24] <kim0> crazed: a pretty basic session would be more than enough
[19:24] <kim0> crazed: that idea is to introduce the concept and answer questions
[19:24] <crazed> i could handle that
[19:24] <kim0> the time doesn't really allow for anything close to advanced :)
[19:24] <kim0> crazed: awesome!
[19:24] <kim0> do you have a wiki account
[19:24] <crazed> i do
[19:24] <crazed> actually
[19:25] <kim0> crazed: edit  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCloudDays/Timetable
[19:25] <crazed> now i have to remember my wiki account password :)
[19:25] <kim0> hehe lol
[19:25] <crazed> oh this is launchpad
[19:26] <crazed> hm i think i know that login
[19:26] <kim0> :)
[19:26] <kim0> the wonders of the human memory
[19:26] <photerran> oh yeah that reminds me, what are the requirements to be a presenter?  wiki account... anything else?
[19:26] <kim0> photerran: not even that :)
[19:26] <kim0> I could edit the wiki for you
[19:27] <kim0> crazed: could you email me kim0 AT ubuntu.com
[19:27] <photerran> oh nice
[19:27] <kim0> photerran: you too please if you'll be giving a session
[19:27] <kim0> this is just so that I can remind you and coordinate
[19:27] <kim0> thanks guys
[19:28] <crazed> kim0: sure what kind of email?
[19:28] <kim0> crazed: just "hi" :) wanna get your email
[19:28] <kim0> photerran: so do you have a wiki account? have you decided on the sesion thing yet ?
[19:29] <kim0> photerran: scalable cloud web app would be great :)
[19:29] <photerran> no i dont have an account, and yeah i'd like to do a session.
[19:29] <kim0> awesome
[19:29] <kim0> photerran: what's the session title
[19:29]  * kim0 will edit
[19:30] <photerran> not sure how much detail i can go into, i'll talk it over with my team leader & let you know in my email what I'll cover
[19:30] <photerran> give me an hour or two to get it sorted out
[19:30] <kim0> great .. again, there's usually not much time for lots of details .. it's mostly laying down the basics and answering qquestions ..etc
[19:30] <kim0> so nor worries
[19:30] <kim0> no*
[19:31] <kim0> photerran: thanks for the contribution
[19:31] <photerran> ok great, it's my pleasure
[19:32] <kim0> all mine :)
[19:33] <crazed> now i have to figure out UTC
[19:33] <crazed> woo
[19:33] <kim0> lol
[19:33] <kim0> crazed: time now in UTC is 7:33pm
[19:33] <crazed>  date -d "14:00 EST" -u
[19:34] <kim0> your tz skills are l33t :)
[19:34] <kim0> I end up googling hehe
[19:34] <photerran> wolframalpha is good for that too
[19:35] <photerran> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=time+utc
[19:38] <crazed> kim0: how long are these sessions typically
[19:39] <kim0> crazed: just one hour
[19:39] <crazed> seems all the times on there are during my work hours
[19:39] <kim0> hmm
[19:39] <crazed> woah actually
[19:39] <crazed> i'm 80% sure i'll be in seattle those two days lol
[19:39] <crazed> going to amazon hq
[19:39] <kim0> hmm
[19:40] <kim0> does that mean you may not be able to present ?
[19:40] <kim0> just email me once you know
[19:40] <crazed> possibly not this time, is this monthly/weekly?
[19:40] <kim0> mm .. it's usually of less frequency, although there's zero problem doing this more often if people are willing to share :)
[19:41] <kim0> crazed: let me know once you're sure whether or not you can make it
[19:42] <crazed> kim0: will do
[19:43] <kim0> thanks
[19:50] <photerran> just my luck... signed up for launchpad to get into ubuntu wiki, now ubuntu wiki gives 500 error after the SSO gateway
[19:51] <photerran> i was going to just do this once i logged in, but maybe i should mention it here first anyway
[19:52] <photerran> kim0: the session details link (to Sessions page) on the cloud days page is broken, maybe you meant it to be the Timetable page instead?
[21:31] <semiosis> kim0: I sent you an email about the cloud days session.  i'm all cleared but had to change nick (used to be photerran) as I explained in the email
[21:53] <kim0> semiosis: just read your email
[21:53] <kim0> that's awesome
[21:53] <kim0> what you mentioned is totally fine
[21:54] <kim0> semiosis: puppet or gluster .. hmm what about two sessions :)
[21:54] <kim0> semiosis: still unable to edit the wiki ? should I do it
[21:55] <semiosis> let me try again, i was getting 500 errors earlier
[21:56] <kim0> semiosis: that sometimes happen, but the "action" usually completes fine
[21:58] <semiosis> ah yes thats the case
[22:02] <semiosis> now getting 500 errors trying to open the edit page... i'll try again later.  in regards to two sessions... i wouldnt want to take up two slots just yet, hopefully someone else will see an opening and want to contribute as well
[22:03] <kim0> semiosis: then I'd take gluster and more generally .. storage best practices for scalable web apps
[22:03] <kim0> semiosis: should I write that title ?
[22:03] <kim0> let me know what to write
[22:07] <semiosis> how about "Scaling legacy web apps in the cloud with GlusterFS" ?
[22:08] <semiosis> btw since we're going in the direction of gluster i should note that I dont use the ubuntu packages, but the latest version from gluster
[22:13] <semiosis> kim0: the wiki is working for me now, i added the topic to the timetable.  thanks for your support!


[00:15] <RiotingPacifist> how should i title a bug, i have the problem with specific hardware but it can be generallised to any hardware that holds onto its usb address. should i call it "X does not work after its rotated" or "usb devices fail to reconnect after temporary disconection, if the device expects the same usb address" ?
[00:16] <persia> RiotingPacifist, What kind of device is this?
[00:16] <RiotingPacifist> a usb device (webcam)
[00:17] <persia> And what fails to reconnect?  v4l2 clients?
[00:17] <RiotingPacifist> an internal webcam in the laptop but the problem is with the usb stack not with the webcam drivers
[00:17] <persia> What's the problem?
[00:17] <RiotingPacifist> if the cammera is rotated (it gets disconnected temporaraly) then it disapears from lsusb until i reboot
[00:18] <persia> So it's not just that it gets a different address, but that it completely disappears?
[00:18] <RiotingPacifist> its caused by :[  781.642552] usb 2-2: new full speed USB device using ohci_hcd and address 27 //[  781.826537] usb 2-2: device descriptor read/64, error -62
[00:19] <RiotingPacifist> which as far as i understand it is the ohci_hcd stack offering it a new address and it refuses the new address
[00:19] <RiotingPacifist> oops copied the wrong part: [  782.390466] usb 2-2: new full speed USB device using ohci_hcd and address 28 [  782.798424] usb 2-2: device not accepting address 28, error -62
[00:19] <persia> I'd probably title it "${specific product name} fails to reattach to USB bus after momentary disconnection".
[00:20] <RiotingPacifist> thx, im not sure its actually fixable tbh but hopefully there will be a work around
[00:20] <persia> In the description, I'd be sure to mention the make/model of the laptop in which the device is included (embedded devices tend to get higher priority, as users don't have as much choice).
[00:21] <persia> Also, be sure to attach the output of lspci -vvnn to the bug, as well as the output of lsusb -v before and after the disconnection, and dmesg.
[00:24] <RiotingPacifist> ok thx, brb need to restart to get that
[07:14] <dholbach> good morning
[07:17] <marmuta> hi, there is a broken package in Intrepid. I had filed a bug and the author then released a new upstream version.
[07:18] <marmuta> I'm wondering how to get the new version picked up, should I file a new bug?
[07:19] <marmuta> the package is sysprof-module-source
[07:19] <persia> marmuta, Just add a note to the old bug.
[07:19] <persia> With the patch available, status should be "triaged".
[07:19] <persia> (as we trust upstream to write good patches)
[07:20] <marmuta> thank you, I'll do that. Also what if I wanted to get my feet wet and try to package it myself?
[07:21] <marmuta> is there any chance this would get considered for inclusion?
[07:22] <persia> Perhaps : it depends on the bug.  The archive is currently frozen for the intrepid release, so you'd need to file the stable release update process.
[07:22] <persia> !sru
[07:23] <marmuta> It was more the trivial kind, nothing functional changed, I'll check the link, thank you
[07:28] <persia> Oh, for that sort of thing, the better solution would be to prepare the new upstream for jaunty, but jaunty doesn't open for another few weeks.
[07:28] <persia> You've found the solution at just the time it's least convenient to get it uploaded :(
[07:30] <marmuta> oh, too bad, it's unusable right now without patching it
[07:30] <persia> Hrm?  "unusable right now" doesn't sound "the trivial kind".
[07:31] <persia> "unusable right now" sounds serious, and in need of a post-update fix soonest.
[07:31] <marmuta> well the kernel module doesn't build and the patch was trivial
[07:32] <marmuta> upstream basically changed just this one thing
[07:32] <persia> the size of the patch isn't the important part : it's the size of the bug :)
[07:33] <persia> Sometimes a 1 character patch can change a package from useless to useful.
[07:34] <marmuta> ok, I stand corrected. it's critically important for this package to work.
[07:37] <marmuta> also I found that I cannot set the state to triaged, launchpad does't let me do it
[07:38] <persia> What's the bug number?
[07:38] <marmuta> Bug #272204
[07:40] <persia> marmuta, Bug is triaged.  Update your debdiff based on the SRU document, and subscribe the appropriate teams, and it will probably get pushed.
[07:40] <marmuta> will do, thank you persia
[09:10] <lch> hi, I want to report a bug about the mediawiki package in the intrepid repositories, apparently the XSS issue was already handled by the Debian people and they have the fixed version in Debian sid (unstable), but intrepid still ships the affected vulnerable version
[09:10] <lch> can somebody walk me through the process of requesting that the fixed version is used in intrepid?
[09:11] <lch> the relevant XSS bug report can be seen in the Ubuntu mediawiki maintenance mailing lists, see http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-mediawiki-devel/2008-October/thread.html
[09:13] <thekorn> hi mvo, can you please take a look at bug 289028, just in case this one is important
[09:14] <jibel> Bonjour, Can someone at bugcontrol set importance of bug 289091 to high if not critical.
[09:15] <jibel> it makes upgrade from hardy to intrepid fail when you're upgrading ca-certificates-java
[09:15] <mvo> thekorn: what repository is that?
[09:17] <thekorn> mvo, this repository provides a modified kernel for the eeepc
[09:18] <thekorn> www.array.org
[09:19] <azimout> sorry, i just joined the channel. why are you talking about a custom kernel for the eee?
[09:19] <mvo> thanks, I have a look
[09:20] <thekorn> thank you
[09:21] <thekorn> azimout, it was about a bug in synaptic, not directly related to the custom kernel for the eeepc
[09:22] <azimout> ok, thanx
[09:22] <azimout> i just installed intrepid on the 701 last night, and wanted to see if anyone needs help
[09:29] <lch> I need help
[09:29] <lch> I want to report a bug about the mediawiki package in the intrepid repositories, apparently the XSS issue was already handled by the Debian people and they have the fixed version in Debian sid (unstable), but intrepid still ships the affected vulnerable version
[09:30] <lch> or can I make my system use the Debian repos for mediawiki only, since it's fairly self-contained as a web software, somehow?
[09:49] <azimout> Ich: you should report a bug about this, for sure!
[09:49] <azimout> not sure if and how to use the debian repositories, maybe someone else can help you on that...
[09:51] <geser> lch: it would be better to get it fix for intrepid too
[09:51] <lch> well, how do I report this as a bug then?
[09:53] <geser> lch: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mediawiki/
[09:55] <geser> and it looks like 1.12.0-2lenny1 from lenny would be good to get in
[09:57] <lch> 1.12.0-2 is already in and affected by the XSS, the 1.13.2 would be needed
[09:58] <lch> it's not like it'll add any new dependencies or anything, it's just PHP code anyway
[09:58] <geser> lch: http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/mediawiki/news/20081014T223221Z.html mentions it's fixed in the version from lenny
[09:59] <geser> I'm pretty sure 1.13.2 won't get into intrepid this short before the release
[09:59] <geser> but patches fixing the XSS issue will get included
[09:59] <lch> huh, it was my impression that the bug was fixed in 1.13.2 but there wasn't just a patch for the old versions
[10:00] <geser> I guess someone backported that fix from 1.13.2 to 1.12.0
[11:02] <Hobbsee> jibel: thanks, would have been helpful for you to mention that in #ubuntu-devel, FYI.  Prodded with the OMGURGENT stick.
[11:16] <jibel> Hobbsee: I'm at work, not easy to chat between meeting :)
[11:16] <Hobbsee> jibel: no problem.  Oh, it was definetly a dist-upgrade from hardy to intrepid you were doing?
[11:18] <Hew> seb128: bug 230163, are you sure it's gnome-sudoku? I really think it's gnome-games, since gnome-sudoku is only present in Dapper, and this report is from Hardy.
[11:19] <seb128> Hew: read the comment before the reassign?
[11:19] <seb128> "$ apt-get install gnome-sudoku"
[11:20] <jibel> Hobbsee: yes, most reports are about dist-upgrade
[11:20] <Hobbsee> jibel: that's what I thought.  Just checking
[11:21] <Hew> seb128: Hmm, I'm not sure how that works. Launchpad says gnome-sudoku only exists for Dapper. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-sudoku
[11:24] <seb128> Hew: gnome-games provides gnome-sudoku
[11:24] <seb128> so it could be gnome-games which gets installed
[11:24] <seb128> or the user could be using a ppa or something
[11:24] <seb128> the bug lacks details
[11:24] <jibel> Hobbsee: We're talking about it with slangasek on #ubuntu-devel
[11:24] <seb128> it's likely gnome-games that should depends on python-glade2
[11:25] <Hobbsee> jibel: cool, i'm seeing that.  I just responded there :)
[11:28] <Hew> seb128: Ah yes, gnome-games provides gnome-sudoku. I'll ask the reporter what version they are using. Do you think it should still be filed under gnome-sudoku then?
[11:29] <seb128> Hew: no, reassign to gnome-games and change the title to "gnome-games should depends on python-glade2"
[11:29] <angusthefuzz> could someone take a look at bug 286285 its a kernel bug that is has complete information and should be marked high importance.  Thanks!
[11:29] <seb128> or python-glade
[11:30] <Hew> seb128: Ok, will do, thanks for your help.
[11:30] <seb128> Hew: no problem, thank you for the bug triage work there ;-)
[12:07] <askand> I have marked bug 45574 as dublicate of bug 3235 instead of bug 10435 , should I mention why in the comments of that bug+
[12:08] <wgrant> BjornT_: Can you try gnome-settings-daemon from my PPA please? It should fix bug #280148, and I'll hopefully get it SRUed.
[12:28] <BjornT_> wgrant: sure, i'll try it
[12:29] <wgrant> BjornT_: Thanks, I've had a couple of other success reports.
[12:36] <marmuta> ok, I'm done with the SRU request. Could someone look over #272204 and give feedback?
[12:36] <marmuta> persia, are u still around?
[12:37] <persia> marmuta, I'm about, but I'm not on the SRU team.  Try asking in #ubuntu-motu
[12:38] <marmuta> ok. thanks
[12:53] <BjornT_> wgrant: the package in your ppa seems to work fine, thanks
[12:54] <wgrant> BjornT_: Excellent. Care to comment on the bug for evidence?
[12:54] <BjornT_> sure
[13:00] <afflux> morning
[14:57] <bddebian> Boo
[15:15] <lch> Far
[17:08] <jibel> doko: hi
[17:09] <doko> jibel: ?
[17:11] <jibel> doko: about bug 276828 . I'm very sorry if I'm wrong but I really can't see the lines you're referring to in the log file.
[17:11] <jibel> doko: It stops on 2008.10.01 and the lines you're mentionning are from 2008.10.17
[17:13] <jibel> doko: The message "list file for package `java-gcj-compat-headless' is missing final newline" the reporter is mentionning in description usually means a corrupted archive.
[17:16] <doko> jibel: updated the info
[17:17] <jibel> doko: Thank you.
[17:18] <Ca{P}RiCoRN> Intel pro/wireless 3945BG dont work on ubuntu
[17:18] <Ca{P}RiCoRN> 8.04
[17:18] <Ca{P}RiCoRN> reporting a bug :)
[17:18] <doko> jibel: it's always nice if you extract the few relevant lines from the attachment in the report
[17:20] <Ca{P}RiCoRN> someone got me ?
[17:22] <Ca{P}RiCoRN> hello ?
[17:25] <jibel> doko: I usually do that, but in that case the reporter did it in the description. So I've thought there was enough information for that kind of classical failure.
[17:45] <Kimf> I have a quite non standard problem, but might be related to a more general problem. I have vista on a raid 0 on sata 1,2 and a non raid disk on sata3 (nvidia bios raid). I'm trying to install intrepid to the non raid drive and at the moment booting it from grub4dos from the vista boot menu with the menu.lst that is generated and in /boot/grub/ but I just end up with busybox at initramfs. (installed with 8.10 alternate amd64 from 22.
[17:52] <tzn> hi there all you brave bug squashers
[17:52] <tzn> where can I find information how to prepare and submit patch for a bug?
[17:53] <tzn> i'm partucularly refering to #289700, which is trivial typo
[17:58] <asomething> bug 289700
[18:01] <asomething> You should take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide but in this case the issue is so trivial and we are in a freeze for the upcoming release that it should probably not be fixed untill the next time it gets uploaded for another reaseon
[18:29] <bdmurray> crimsun: what sets the default sound capture device?  I'm looking at bug 289621
[18:33] <calc> why can regular users change status from Triaged to something else?
[18:34]  * calc thinks only bug squad should be able to Un-Triage a bug
[18:34] <mrooney> that would seem to make sense, perhaps
[18:35] <bdmurray> I think it helps with clean-up if more people can move bugs from Triaged -> Fix Released or Incomplete - especially with unmarked duplicate bug reports.
[18:36] <calc> hmm true
[18:36] <calc> a person who didn't belong to any groups at all marked my triaged (properly) bug to confirmed for some unknown reason
[18:36] <bdmurray> It's a lack of understanding as to what Triaged means
[18:37] <calc> yes and its annoying when people who don't know what they are doing mess with bugs :\
[18:37] <bdmurray> It'd be more helpful I think if Launchpad gave status definitions
[18:37] <calc> heh
[18:37] <chrisccoulson> calc - i had a similar experience a couple of days ago where someone changed from triaged -> confirmed
[18:37] <chrisccoulson> i just changed it back and quoted the meaning of triaged from the wiki page
[18:37] <thekorn> bdmurray, what's the common way to add a testcase to a bugreport? updating the description with a "TESTCASE:" section?
[18:38] <calc> thats effectively what i did, didn't bother to quote the status page though just told them they apparently don't know what Triaged means
[18:38] <bdmurray> thekorn: yeah, the same thing with a workaround
[18:38] <thekorn> ok, thanks
[18:38] <bdmurray> calc: How are they supposed to know?
[18:38] <calc> bdmurray: if they don't know they shouldn't be futzing with the status to begin with
[18:39] <calc> of course our views may be different about messing with things that someone has no idea about :)
[18:39] <calc> wow the wiki got a revamp :)
[18:39] <bdmurray> I think they honestly want to help just don't understand how to
[18:40] <calc> btw what is the url to the status page?
[18:40] <calc> i will add that to the bug report so he knows where to look in the future
[18:40] <chrisccoulson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
[18:41]  * calc thinks the wiki list of current+stable is off a bit
[18:41] <calc> should that include Gutsy as well?
[18:41] <calc> or does that mean something other than supported
[18:46] <thekorn> bdmurray, added comment and testcase to bug 289621
[18:49] <thekorn> bdmurray, how should we handle bug 280534 now as there are many (maybe different issues) described (broken sound in wine, wrong length reported in g-sound-recorder, alsamixer only shows 'Master')
[18:53] <bdmurray> thekorn: point the subscribers to the right bugs where appropriate
[18:55] <chrisccoulson> ping ogasawara
[18:56] <ogasawara> chrisccoulson: pong
[18:56] <bdmurray> thekorn: you meant select PulseAudio-Soundserver in step 5ish of bug 289621 right?
[18:56] <chrisccoulson> hi. i seem to be seeing a fair few bug reports describing crashes, and they all seem to have a fairly common call trace in them.
[18:57] <chrisccoulson> bug 286285
[18:57] <chrisccoulson> i thought i'd bring that to your attention ;)
[18:57] <thekorn> bdmurray, yes, right, let me correct it
[18:59] <ogasawara> chrisccoulson: thanks, I'll take a look.  do have any of the other bug #'s handy.  if not no worries, I'll search for em.
[18:59] <chrisccoulson> i've marked 2 other bugs as a duplicate of that one
[18:59] <ogasawara> chrisccoulson: ok great, thanks.
[18:59] <chrisccoulson> i'm running bughelper atm to see if i can find any mopre
[19:19] <motoplux> doko ping
[19:19] <motoplux> doko i'm the one of #289934
[19:20] <doko> motoplux: pong
[19:21] <motoplux> doko I tried what you wrote but no results :(
[19:22] <doko> motoplux: no results, or no good results? ;)
[19:22] <motoplux> doko no good results, same error
[19:25] <doko> motoplux: this is strange. could you re-run the postinst with -x (sudo bash -x /var/lib/dpkg/info/ca-certificates-java.postinst configure) and paste the output somewhere? (http://paste.ubuntu.com/)
[19:30] <motoplux> doko the last part http://paste.ubuntu.com/63366/
[19:31] <doko> motoplux: the first part would be more interesting =)  run: sudo bash -x /var/lib/dpkg/info/ca-certificates-java.postinst configure 2>&1 | tee postinst.log
[19:31] <doko> and paste the contents of the file postinst.log
[19:33] <motoplux> doko http://paste.ubuntu.com/63369/
[19:34] <motoplux> I modified cacerts_updates in no, just to try
[19:37] <motoplux> doko this is with cacerts_update=yes in /etc/default/cacerts : http://paste.ubuntu.com/63370/
[19:38] <doko> well, cacerts_updates doesn't affect the intial install
[19:38] <doko> motoplux: which locale is set?
[19:39] <doko> could you rerun: sudo LANG=C bash -x /var/lib/dpkg/info/ca-certificates-java.postinst configure 2>&1 | tee postinst.log
[19:39] <motoplux> doko http://paste.ubuntu.com/63373/
[19:40] <doko> motuplux: hmm, at least these are no default settings.
[19:41] <doko> after running the previous command, please unset LC_CTYPE LC_ ... all of them
[19:41] <motoplux> doko http://paste.ubuntu.com/63374/
[19:42] <motoplux> doko also LANG?
[19:42] <doko> no, keep it
[19:44] <motoplux> doko in this way? unset LC_CTYPE . It doesn't unset it
[19:45] <motoplux> doko only LC_ALL
[19:45] <doko> motoplux: check with env|grep LC_   (nothing should be printed)
[19:46] <motoplux> doko ok, env empty. I'll rerun the command
[19:47] <motoplux> doko http://paste.ubuntu.com/63375/
[19:49] <motoplux> doko for what it's worth, this time was faster
[19:49] <doko> Errore keytool: java.lang.Exception: Impossibile importare il certificato, l'alias <brasil_gov_br> è già esistente
[19:49] <motoplux> doko I mean running the command
[19:49] <doko> there's still something setting the env ...
[19:49] <motoplux> doko Unable to import the certificate, the alias is already present
[19:49] <doko> motoplux: where did you paste this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/63373/  is this a file?
[19:50] <motoplux> doko I did locale
[19:50] <motoplux> doko I will paste env
[19:51] <motoplux> doko http://paste.ubuntu.com/63376/
[19:52] <doko> looks good: please re-run: sudo LANG=C  LC_ALL=C bash -x /var/lib/dpkg/info/ca-certificates-java.postinst configure 2>&1 | tee postinst.log
[19:52] <doko> but I don't think it's a locale problem.
[19:52] <motoplux> doko http://paste.ubuntu.com/63378/
[19:53] <motoplux> no errors?
[19:53] <doko> now run dpkg --configure --pending
[19:54] <motoplux> doko done!
[19:54] <motoplux> doko thank you! what was that?
[19:54] <doko> motoplux: please run: sudo env | grep -E 'LC_|LANG'
[19:55] <motoplux> doko http://paste.ubuntu.com/63379/
[19:57] <doko> motoplux: somehow you set LC_ALL (for the root user), this is not done during the standard install, so please find the place where this is set
[19:58] <motoplux> doko mmm ok. I will search for it. thanks for now
[20:00] <motoplux> doko maybe here http://paste.ubuntu.com/63385/ ?
[20:01] <liw> motoplux, that looks like it's setting LC_ALL, yes
[20:01] <motoplux> should I remove it? I don't remember now why I set it
[20:02] <liw> I think you should; usually the LANG setting is enough
[20:03] <motoplux> ok. brb
[20:03] <doko> diner time ...
[22:17] <Kimf> I'm having a rather non standard problem, that might be a more general problem. I'm running vista on a (nvidia fake)raid 0 and installed ubuntu 8.10 on a 3rd drive (nonraid). I'm booting this from the vista bootmanager with grub4dos and the menu.lst file from the ubuntu install. But I only get a busybox in the initramfs and a message that it can not find /dev/sdc1 (where it is installed). Has this been reported? Can't seem to find any
[22:18] <Pici> Kimf: Have you asked in #ubuntu+1 yet?
[22:19] <Kimf> Pici:Yes, once just before I came here and once earlier today.
[22:48] <Kimf> Pici:Is that a no then?
[22:48] <Pici> Kimf: No, sorry. I just wanted to make sure that you had asked there before asking here as well :/
[22:50] <Kimf> ok, any information I should get to go with the bug report? Hoping get one ready to post tomorrow.
[22:51] <bdmurray> adding you menu.lst would probably be helpful
[22:54] <angusthefuzz> does anyone know the master bug number of all the complaints about performance regression in 8.10 in response to that article by phoenix
[22:54] <bdmurray> Is there one?
[22:54] <angusthefuzz> should be, unless we are just invalidating them
[22:54] <angusthefuzz> i must have seen 5 in the last few hours
[22:55] <Kimf> ok, I'll try to get that in there. But I have also tried a few different things with it, but just installed it again so that I have a "clean install". But seems to be a problem not related to it. As it seems like something is wrong in my /dev/ drives missing and such. I'll try to do a complete as possible report.
[23:01] <bdmurray> angusthefuzz: maybe its bug 289903?
[23:03] <angusthefuzz> thanks bdmurray I think I actually assigned that duplicate, dont know what I was thinking anymore, there arent as many as i thought
[23:04] <bdmurray> its a mistake to lump all those tests in one bug report too I think
[23:04] <angusthefuzz> bdmurray: yeah, in fact, some of the tests clearly showed an improvement
[23:05] <angusthefuzz> the whole report was a bit overstated if you ask me, just trying to get peoples attention
[23:05] <angusthefuzz> what can I do to help move the bug along?
[23:07] <bdmurray> angusthefuzz: move it along how?
[23:07] <angusthefuzz> get it off the new and unconfirmed list, should i try to split it up, as you suggested?
[23:08] <bdmurray> That's probably just work honestly
[23:08] <bdmurray> er busy work!
[23:09] <angusthefuzz> (I was hoping thats what you would say)


[00:22] <Ish> hey hey hey
[00:34] <zoredache> !hi
[00:35] <Ish> We're a friendly bunch! Happy to help with any of your questions!
[00:44] <forces> :P
[00:44] <forces> xubuntu rocks!
[00:46] <Ish> it does, i'm using it right now, and i can't stop smiling
[00:48] <forces> xubuntu makes me feel so happy, free and fast
[00:49] <Ish> I Can ride a bike again!
[00:52] <forces> kde4 rlz!!(?)
[02:04] <Ish> hypothetically, if i log into a router that was set to the default settings, what's the best thing i could do? other than upgrade their firmware for them
[02:04] <Ish> and believe me, the firmware will be upgraded for them before i'm done, i hope to get that bored with this
[02:10] <zoredache> it depends on what you mean by 'router', a consumer broadband device, or something that you might find in your isp...      Are you completely sure, that in every possible jurisdition that a cop must identify themselves?
[02:14] <zoredache> it doesn't really matter. this is off-topic...  ask somewhere else
[02:16] <Ish> where's the off topic xubuntu?
[02:16] <Ish> and i don't think a cop EVER has to say he's a cop, that's just something that the internet and television lies about
[02:18] <cody-somerville> Ish, #xubuntu-offtopic
[02:53] <Ish> any idea why the max speed for my dvd-burner has a max speed for the dvd-rw of 2x, but only burns at .6x?
[03:23] <Gadu> hey, i'm trying to customize my xubuntu livecd for on-the-go (and showing off) using https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization
[03:23] <Gadu> however, i can't seem to find the config files for default desktop background and customizing panel
[03:23] <Gadu> could someone point me to the directory these files would be located?
[03:39] <land> guys, can you help me w/ MPlayer config.?
[05:17] <ReRamBeCap> How i can uninstall xubuntu?!!
[05:28] <rocko> you can't
[05:28] <rocko> xubuntu is permanent
[05:49] <cody-somerville> rocko, that isn't true
[05:54] <rocko> yes it is
[05:54] <rocko> xubuntu can never be removed
[06:00] <forces> yes, can be
[06:00] <forces> you can delete the partition
[06:00] <forces> there are many ways to remove linux
[06:12] <zoredache_> df
[11:00] <axion> is there any way to have per-folder icon sizes like nautilus?
[11:00] <axion> i want my images to show as big thumbnails....everything else compact list
[11:04] <TheSheep> axionix: no
[11:05] <axionix> oh well. nautilus until it can :)
[11:05] <axionix> thanks
[11:09] <TheSheep> I don't think it will ever do it
[11:09] <TheSheep> use an image browser
[11:10] <axionix> ok. i'm just writing a python script to do what i want
[11:10] <axionix> tired of looking :)
[11:20] <jarnos> I experimented by Xfce 4.6's power manager but switched back to gnome-power-manager. The problem is, the suspend button does not work with it anymore even if it did before my experiments. In preferences gnome-power-manager is configured to suspend when suspend button is pressed.
[11:22] <TheSheep> don't worry, it will suspend right away on next wakeup, having rememebered your keypresses
[11:22] <TheSheep> I had it, I hade to wake it up ten times in a row
[11:29] <jarnos> TheSheep: It does not behave like that here.
[11:30] <jarnos> TheSheep: I would be worried, if it did.
[12:55] <land> is there any way i can keep a background image in a folder?
[12:56] <SiDi> huh ?
[12:56] <land> *for a folder?
[12:57] <SiDi> You want to put a background image in a folder, in Thunar ?
[12:58] <land> yeah a backgroung image
[12:58] <land> what is thunar?
[12:59] <SiDi> It's Xfce's file manager's name :P
[13:00] <SiDi> I don't think that's possible, btw
[13:00] <land> i see
[15:32] <mib_qx6p3rdb> Hi all! I'm running xubuntu 8.04, I'd like to avoid stretching when i'm running a low-resolution application on fullscreen (I'd prefer to have black border). Is that possible? Thanks in advance for any help.
[15:35] <cody-somerville> mib_qx6p3rdb, that has to happen at the application level
[15:38] <Maximilian1st> Hi, I use xubuntu 8.10 with Xfce 4.6 and after changing the mouse speed in the xfce mouse settings, the mouse went faster and all was ok. But now, after a reboot, my alps mouse is gone and I only have left some mackintosh emulation thing, before there were three devices listed. I only have one touchpad on the notebook. I plugged a USB mouse and it works perfectly but I need my touchpad to work again. Any advice?
[15:39] <mib_qx6p3rdb> cody-somerville: thank you :)
[15:41] <cody-somerville> Maximilian1st, Ouch.
[15:42] <Maximilian1st> I know that hurts, sorry :-p
[15:42] <Maximilian1st> I don't know where to look at.
[15:42] <Maximilian1st> I have no clue, but in some way it is more some xorg stuff I should look in probably.
[15:43] <Maximilian1st> By the way, hi cody-somerville
[15:43] <cody-somerville> Hi :)
[15:44] <JPohlmann> Maximilian1st: Welcome to the ugly world of evdev :-/
[15:44] <Maximilian1st> I noticed a bug from some user about an alps touchpad and it was filed yesterday or so.
[15:44] <JPohlmann> I suppose that's what's being used here.
[15:44] <Maximilian1st> Hey Jannis :-)
[15:44] <Laserbeak43> hello
[15:44] <Maximilian1st> evdev is used, I checked the xorg log.
[15:44] <Maximilian1st> but it does not state the alps touchpad at all.
[15:45] <Laserbeak43> how do i log in as root after i select switch users?
[15:45] <Maximilian1st> Are there some backups of these logs somewhere?
[15:45] <Laserbeak43> typing root as username does nothing
[15:45] <Maximilian1st> It used to work before I change the speed of the mouse.
[15:46] <Maximilian1st> There is an old xorg log file
[15:46] <Maximilian1st> (II) config/hal: Adding input device AlpsPS/2 ALPS GlidePoint
[15:47] <Maximilian1st> And the mouse is there. Why has it gone now? Is there any hazard involved and if I reboot it is magically there again?
[15:47] <cemunal> does latest xubuntu kernel support 0c45:613c Microdia driver? Can i use 0c45:613c Microdia webcam with xubuntu?
[15:48] <mib_qx6p3rdb> I've found a solution: nvidia-settings let you set the scaling mode of the display :]
[15:49] <Maximilian1st> cemunal, http://rubenruiz.org/2008/06/23/tx1320-microdia-webcam-on-ubuntu-804-part-1/ could that help?
[15:51] <Maximilian1st> I give the reboot a try.
[15:52] <Laserbeak43> hi cna someone please tell me how to login as root so i can add new users and edit groups?
[15:52] <Laserbeak43> can*
[15:53] <mib_qx6p3rdb> bye all!
[16:00] <TheSheep> Laserbeak43: applications->system->users and groups
[16:00] <TheSheep> also see this
[16:00] <TheSheep> !sudo | Laserbeak43
[16:00] <Maximilian1st> cody-somerville, the reboot did the magic trick. Yet it is a bit hazardous why it suddenly works again. As I mentionned in #xfce, it's a bit like in windows, try to reboot maybe it will work again.
[16:01] <Laserbeak43> TheSheep: sudo users-admin does not help
[16:01] <Laserbeak43> which is the command for users and groups
[16:23] <Laserbeak43> is there a graphical login screen that allows you to click the user that you want to log in as?
[16:23] <charlie-tca> yes, it is called a faced theme.
[16:24] <Laserbeak43> ok, i'm using a faced theme now but i don't have a user selection
[16:24] <Laserbeak43> just a place to type a user's name
[16:24]  * Laserbeak43 has a 3 year old that isn't much of a typer
[16:24] <charlie-tca> faced themes should have a user list and a place-holder for a picture of the user.
[16:24] <Laserbeak43> or a speller for that
[16:24] <Laserbeak43> ok thanks
[16:25] <charlie-tca> Try settings -> login window and try each theme. They won't have the xubuntu logo, but they do work
[16:30] <Laserbeak43> no
[16:30] <Laserbeak43> just typing
[16:30] <Laserbeak43> there's an option to add more though
[16:30] <Laserbeak43> so i have to find a place to download them
[16:30] <Laserbeak43> ok i don't see where i would get them :/
[16:32] <charlie-tca> !themes
[16:32] <charlie-tca> !gdm
[16:33] <charlie-tca> !changethemes
[16:33] <charlie-tca> I don't know, maybe
[16:37] <Laserbeak43> ok thanks i'll look
[16:52] <Laserbeak43> just posted these
[16:52] <Laserbeak43> oh well, i posted on the forums
[16:52] <Laserbeak43> the clipboard is acting stupid
[16:52] <vinnl> Laserbeak43, how?
[16:53] <Laserbeak43> i pressed ctrl+c in FF and then tried to paste here
[16:53] <Laserbeak43> but no go
[16:53] <vinnl> With Firefox still open?
[16:53] <Laserbeak43> nothing unusual
[16:53] <Laserbeak43> oh
[16:53] <Laserbeak43> if you close ff the clipboard erases?
[16:53] <vinnl> Laserbeak43, not if you add the Clipman plugin to the panel ;-)
[16:54] <Laserbeak43> hehe sounds like a plan
[16:54] <Laserbeak43> thanks :)
[16:55] <vinnl> yw :)
[16:55] <Laserbeak43> added :)
[16:59] <Laserbeak43> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1096905
[16:59] <Laserbeak43> thats the link btw
[16:59] <Laserbeak43> don't think i'
[16:59] <Laserbeak43> ll
[16:59] <Laserbeak43> get an answer though
[16:59] <Laserbeak43> that forum moves fast
[17:10] <Laserbeak43> charlie-tca: seems i've found one in the list
[17:10] <Laserbeak43> faced with browser
[19:04] <whileimhere> Hi how can I add the workspace switcher to my panel.
[19:04] <merav_> Hey, how do I enable Hebrew on my Xubuntu 8.10 installation?
[19:05] <SiDi> whileimhere: right click -> add to panel -> workspaces
[19:05] <TheSheep> merav_: applications->system->language support
[19:05] <TheSheep> merav_: install it, then pick your language at the login screen
[19:05] <SiDi> whileimhere: the thing to add might be named "Desktops"
[19:05] <merav_> there's no hebrew there thesheet
[19:06] <merav_> hrm
[19:06] <merav_> sorry, it is there the sheep
[19:06] <whileimhere> SiDi I do not see either of those listed. I was looking for those.
[19:06] <TheSheep> the translations may be inclomplete, you can help improving it :)
[19:06] <TheSheep> !translate
[19:06] <merav_> but I don't want full hebrew for my system, but only the ability to switch between english and hebrew keyboards
[19:06] <TheSheep> ah!
[19:06] <TheSheep> !layout
[19:07] <merav_> i'll try, thanks thesheep
[19:07] <TheSheep> merav_: oops, sorry, it changed in recent xubuntu
[19:07] <SiDi> whileimhere: i have it here. an iconless entry called "Bureaux" (Desktops in english)
[19:07] <merav_> ...oh
[19:07] <SiDi> the description is something such as "miniature view of virtual desktops"
[19:07] <TheSheep> merav_: you don't edit xorg.conf, you edit /etc/defaults/console
[19:08] <merav_> oh alright
[19:08] <merav_> sec
[19:08] <TheSheep>  /etc/default/console-setup
[19:08] <TheSheep> sorry
[19:08] <merav_> alright, I've loaded it in nano
[19:08] <merav_> but what do I edit?
[19:09] <TheSheep> there should be a line like XKBLAYOUT="us"
[19:09] <TheSheep> change it to "he"
[19:09] <merav_> ok, done
[19:09] <whileimhere> sidi I found it. The no icon thing gave me a clue. Its called pager here
[19:09] <SiDi> There is the setxkbmap command, either.
[19:09] <SiDi> whileimhere: scary names isn't it ? :P
[19:10] <merav_> ...now what?
[19:11] <merav_> now what thesheep?
[19:12] <merav_> br
[19:12] <merav_> b
[19:57] <Hancok> can any one tell me a verygood and free ext3 filesystem recovery app to recover my deleted or formated files/data ?
[19:58] <TheSheep> Hancok: there is no such thing
[19:58] <Hancok> TheSheep then how can i recover my deleted data from an ext3?
[19:58] <TheSheep> Hancok: you might be able to find some of those files by content, if you are lucky
[19:59] <TheSheep> Hancok: but most of the time you can't, they are lost
[19:59] <Hancok> windows have many  app for fat32 and ntfs. why not ext3?
[19:59] <Hancok> TheSheep what do you mean by 'content'?
[20:00] <TheSheep> Hancok: if you remember what was in those files, you can search the raw disk image for it and recover fragments of those files, if you can spot their beginning and end, and if they fit in one block
[20:01] <Hancok> how to search for it then?
[20:03] <TheSheep> your disk is treated as a file, you can open /dev/sda in some binary editor or viewer, and look for your files
[20:03] <SiDi> There must be apps actually T_T
[20:04] <TheSheep> SiDi: it's not possible, DOS/Windows only marks files as deleted by replacing the first letter of their names with special character, ext3 deletes the entry that describes where the file is from inode table
[20:04] <merav_> hey TheSheep, i have still not managed to install the hebrew keyboard...got any ideas?
[20:05] <TheSheep> merav_: you've put 'he' in XKBLAYOUT in that file?
[20:05] <TheSheep> merav_: it should just work, after logging out and back in
[20:06] <over1ord> hello; I'm having problems instaling xubuntu (more specifically, my of won't boot the live cd). any suggestions?
[20:07] <SiDi> that's true, knowing how ext is made, it would be pretty HARD, but i dont think it'd be impossible to get a few files back
[20:07] <SiDi> there would just be missing parts :P
[20:08] <merav_> TheSheep, after putting in 'he', the entire computer operated in hebrew..i only wanted a keyboard switch option
[20:09] <merav_> how can i do that?
[20:09] <TheSheep> that's strange
[20:09] <merav_> very
[20:09] <TheSheep> what happens wen you just run 'setxkbmap he' in terminal?
[20:11] <merav_> nothing at all
[20:11] <TheSheep> no message?
[20:11] <merav_> what should i write in terminal
[20:11] <merav_> ?
[20:12] <TheSheep> setxkbmap he
[20:12] <merav_> nothing happens
[20:12] <TheSheep> not even an error?
[20:12] <TheSheep> because it gives me an error that hebrew keyboard map is not installed
[20:13] <merav_> nope..no error.....
[20:14] <TheSheep> should hebrew keyboard output hebrew characters normally, or with some modifier key?
[20:14] <merav_> i dont understand..
[20:14] <TheSheep> because the polish layout is identical with us, except it has some additional characters when you press alt+key
[20:15] <TheSheep> maybe hebrew works in similar way?
[20:15] <TheSheep> but I suppose that would be inconvenient
[20:15] <merav_> the characters in hebrew are completley different then the english ones..
[20:15] <TheSheep> yes
[20:16] <TheSheep> I'm aware of that, I worked on rtl support for my webapp :)
[20:16] <TheSheep> merav_: what happens if you put "us,he" in that XKBLAYOUT like?
[20:16] <TheSheep> line
[20:17] <TheSheep> XKBLAYOUT="us,he"
[20:17] <merav_> arg. with ubuntu i could easily use the keyboard setting to change it so that i would press alt-alt and it would change between them..
[20:17] <merav_> hold on i'll try
[20:17] <TheSheep> yeah, xfce sucks in this regard
[20:17] <SiDi> use gnome's app under xfce then :P
[20:18] <merav_> how..?
[20:19] <merav_> ...
[20:19] <merav_> ?
[20:19] <Alynna> actually i'll ask here.  I got a question about what might be a serious bug..
[20:19] <Alynna> if theres currently a workaround..
[20:19] <Alynna> when I maximize a window, its borders disappear.
[20:19] <TheSheep> Alynna: that's intended, you can disable that
[20:19] <Myrtti> shouldn't. which version are you using?
[20:20] <Myrtti> o, right, BORDERS
[20:20]  * Myrtti buys new eyes
[20:20] <Alynna> no, I mean ALL th borders, including the titlebar.
[20:20] <TheSheep> Alynna: how do you maximize it?
[20:20] <TheSheep> Alynna: f11?
[20:20] <Alynna> clicking on the square.
[20:21]  * charlie-tca don't like when windows do that. He likes the titlebar
[20:21] <Alynna> the window itself is the proper size, i can see the desktop underneath where the borders would be.
[20:21] <Alynna> here i'll post a snapshot.
[20:22] <TheSheep> Alynna: do the title appear back when you unmaximize it?
[20:22] <Alynna> yes.
[20:24] <Alynna> http://kitsunet.net/xubuntubug.png
[20:24] <Alynna> note, that this is with Jaunty development version,
[20:24] <Myrtti> 404
[20:24] <Alynna> oops
[20:25] <Alynna> http://kitsunet.net/xubuntubug1.png
[20:25] <Alynna> as you can see, not only are its borders missing, but you can see the borders of another window behind it
[20:25] <Alynna> the window manager itself is fine
[20:26] <Alynna> and if i unmaximize the window borders will return.
[20:27] <Alynna> i upgraded to Jaunty early cause I really wanted DRI2 and kinda regret it now. heh.  But i've found workarounds for most the problems but this one
[20:28] <Alynna> I had to disable UXA acceleration because of all the problems it caused..
[20:28] <Alynna> I've got about a dozen bugs to report about UXA/DRI2..
[20:29] <Alynna> but the one I am reporting now i'm pretty sure can be localized to XFWM4
[20:29] <charlie-tca> Do you have compiz enabled?
[20:29] <Alynna> no.
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Tried different themes?
[20:30] <Alynna> I actually want acceleration for 3D apps like second life, I do not want my desktop compositing because it would take performance from 3D apps
[20:30] <Alynna> i tried different window decoration themes, yes
[20:31] <Alynna> the windows themselves resize as if the theme was changed, but the borders don't reappear.
[20:31] <Alynna> actually what specifically happens is this:
[20:32] <Alynna> when I go to change the theme..
[20:32] <Alynna> the window maximizes as if it has no borders whatsoever.
[20:32] <Alynna> when I unmaximize, the borders return in the new theme.
[20:33] <Alynna> when I maximize in the new theme, the borders disappear, to the size of the new theme.
[20:36] <Alynna> its too bad, actually, i'd prefer this behaviour if the window actually maximized without titlebars.  this is an acer aspire one, 1024x600.
[20:36] <Alynna> i may have to install Compiz just to fix this
[20:39] <Alynna> where should I report the DRI2/UXA bugs?
[20:39] <charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
[20:39] <Alynna> and where to report this specific xubuntu bug?
[20:40] <charlie-tca> Same place, just one bug report will cover it
[20:40] <Alynna> ok.. cause i got several bugs to report.
[20:40] <Alynna> DRI2/UXA is currently in pretty bad shape.
[20:41] <Alynna> and i know its getting close to release time
[20:41] <charlie-tca> Make sure you state in the report the hardware used, that it is Jaunty Xubuntu, you updated yesterday or today,.
[20:41] <charlie-tca> one bug per report
[20:42] <charlie-tca> I use the format in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Bug-Reprot-Layout
[20:43] <charlie-tca> Well, this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Bug-Report-Layout
[20:43] <bpmarkham1> i have a fresh install of xubuntu on my ps3 and can't install anything. apt-get install keeps getting stuck at "processing triggers for man-db" any ideas anyone?
[20:44] <bpmarkham1> ubuntu install does the same thing
[20:44] <charlie-tca> Did you use the ported version?
[20:44] <Alynna> compiz has screwed my entire session BRB
[20:44] <bpmarkham1> the powerpc ps3 version? yes
[20:44] <charlie-tca> That would be the one, yes
[20:45] <bpmarkham1> yea i'm on my 4th fresh install... can't seem to figure it out
[20:45] <charlie-tca> !ps3
[20:46] <charlie-tca> Someone want to jump in here? I don't know the ps3
[20:48] <charlie-tca> bpmarkham1: I might suggest the #ubuntu-ps3 channel.
[20:48] <bpmarkham1> thanks!
[20:48] <charlie-tca> Hope they can help
[20:50] <Laserbeak43> dowloaded wolfenstein went into terminal and navigated to its directory
[20:50] <Laserbeak43> typed sudo chmod +x et-linux-2.60.x86.run
[20:50] <Laserbeak43> and nothing happened
[20:51] <arktvrvs> something did hapen
[20:52] <arktvrvs> you made it executable, now execute it
[20:52] <arktvrvs> ./et-linux-2.60.x86.run
[20:52] <Alynna> you know what this is acting like?
[20:52] <Alynna> i just noticed that some of my windows are coming up automaximized.
[20:52] <Laserbeak43> oh ok
[20:53] <charlie-tca> are they opening maximized, or is it just the maximized icon?
[20:53] <Alynna> some things are opening maximized that didn't before.
[20:53] <Alynna> glxgears, the thunderbird preferences dialog
[20:54] <Alynna> i think something is in the background doing this..
[20:54] <charlie-tca> Resolution, I think
[20:54] <Alynna> i think something in here is trying to treat my system like a netbook (which it is) but I have it running a full desktop.
[20:56] <charlie-tca> Now that you mention it, I have seen that. Many applications open maximized in VBox, at low resolution.
[20:56] <charlie-tca> At higher resolutions on my hardware installs, they don't do that
[20:56] <slow-motion> hi
[20:56] <Alynna> maximus... i didn't put that in there...
[20:56] <charlie-tca> But I never lose the title bar
[20:57] <Alynna> i bet thats it
[20:57] <Laserbeak43> how do i kill an application that won't stop?
[20:57] <Laserbeak43> is it "kill"?
[20:57] <charlie-tca> killall appname in a terminal
[20:57] <charlie-tca> or
[20:57] <arktvrvs> pkill!
[20:58] <bpmarkham1> no response in #ubuntu-ps3... post here again...  i have a fresh install of xubuntu on my ps3 and can't install anything. apt-get install keeps getting stuck at "processing triggers for man-db" any ideas anyone? same thing happens for an ubuntu install. I'm also using the ported ps3 iso.
[20:58] <charlie-tca> Ctrl+alt+esc and click on the application if you are not in jaunty
[20:59] <charlie-tca> Laserbeak43: sorry, sudo killall appname
[20:59] <Alynna> that fixed it
[20:59] <charlie-tca> what did?
[20:59] <Alynna> i killall -9'ed maximus
[20:59] <charlie-tca> I thought Laserbeak43 asked about killing
[20:59] <Laserbeak43> hehe
[20:59] <Laserbeak43> well i need to kill abiword
[21:00] <Laserbeak43> but it says i need a process name or id
[21:00] <Alynna> I wonder if its possible to make maximus actually work right..
[21:00] <charlie-tca> You in the gui?
[21:00] <Laserbeak43> oh that did it
[21:00] <Laserbeak43> sudo killall
[21:00] <Laserbeak43> thx
[21:00] <charlie-tca> sure
[21:00] <charlie-tca> Alynna: I don't know, but that should narrow down the bug report some
[21:01] <Alynna> it does, it means the bug isnt with xfwm4
[21:13] <Alynna> lets see if this fixed problems with UXA, i kinda doubt it, but worht a try
[21:13] <charlie-tca> Anybody know of a PPA with gnumeric in it? I need the latest version
[21:19] <forces> how can I install xfce 4.6 in xubuntu?
[21:20] <charlie-tca> It is in jaunty, to be released on April 23. Also,
[21:20] <TheSheep> forces: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2008-August/006494.html
[21:20] <charlie-tca> We got the final in ppa
[21:21] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CharlieKravetz/TipsAndNotes#Xfce%204.6%20in%20Intrepid%20and%20Hardy
[21:22] <forces> what happen if I'm using xubuntu 8.04 LTS?
[21:22] <forces> can I install xfce 4.6?
[21:22] <charlie-tca> See my reference right above
[21:24] <forces> ok thanks
[21:35] <Dillizar> will xubuntu work on 466mhz with 384ram with no compiz or what so ever effects?
[21:35] <charlie-tca> it will, but it will be slow
[21:35] <charlie-tca> If you stay with one application at a time, maybe two, it should be fine
[21:35] <chewit> i run xubuntu on 633mhz & 256mb, runs very well
[21:36] <Dillizar> will flash works chewit
[21:36] <chewit> works great for me
[21:36] <Dillizar> 10??
[21:36] <chewit> but full screen is terrible
[21:36] <chewit> yes 10, 10 runs better than 9 for linux anyway
[21:36] <Dillizar> yeah
[21:37] <Dillizar> well 700mhz its the min for ubuntu :P
[21:37] <chewit> i thought 700 was recommended, isnt 300 min
[21:37] <charlie-tca> yes, but xubuntu is tested on 400MHz, 256MB ram
[21:37] <chewit> ah
[21:38] <chewit> has 9.04 has any improvements on mem & cpu usage
[21:38] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu uses more resources. To run the minumun, you install a server version or minimal version
[21:39] <charlie-tca> don't know that one, chewit
[21:39] <Dillizar> charlie-tca, if i install xubuntu and install gnome interface will it be still xubuntu or will be ubuntu
[21:39] <Dillizar> does the interface makes it xubuntu
[21:39] <charlie-tca> I think 9.04 uses less ram and cpu than 8.04 and 8.10 did, but that is only because I can get 9.04 to work on that old machine
[21:40] <chewit> ah gd
[21:40] <charlie-tca> Dillizar: it will be xubuntu with gnome, but will work much worse that Xubuntu without gnome
[21:42] <Dillizar> xubntu with gnome will work faster than ubuntu
[21:42] <Dillizar> maybe i will just install LCARS 24
[21:42] <chewit> isn;t that just ubuntu if  u do that
[21:42] <chewit> you could try lxde
[21:42] <Mr-Woof> lo all, wondering if i could ask a question? :)
[21:43] <charlie-tca> Dillizar: I don't think it will be much faster, if at all. It is gnome that slows ubuntu down
[21:43] <charlie-tca> !question
[21:44] <Dillizar> chewit, damn its debian :D i like lxde :P
[21:44] <Mr-Woof> I've got a eee900 netbook, i don't want to overwrite the existing xandros install. I've just got unetbootin working with xubuntu. I'd like to install that to a sd card, what sort of size would i need? Would it work ok?
[21:44] <Dillizar> Mr-Woof, wait wait
[21:44] <chewit> u can install lxde in ubuntu
[21:44] <chewit> sudo apt-get install lxde
[21:45] <Dillizar> your eee900 using what kind of hdd
[21:45] <Mr-Woof> waiting :)
[21:45] <Mr-Woof> it has two, 4gb and 16gb i think
[21:45] <Dillizar> Mr-Woof,
[21:45] <Dillizar> do you know
[21:45] <Dillizar> what kind of hdd you have
[21:45] <Dillizar> lemme tell you
[21:45] <Dillizar> 10x faster than any sata
[21:45] <Mr-Woof> please do :)
[21:46] <Dillizar> 160gb from your kidn of hdd its smt like 1000$
[21:46] <charlie-tca> You can also install xubuntu it it
[21:46] <Mr-Woof> I'd like it separate from the existing xandros install though
[21:47] <Mr-Woof> Great distro by the way guys, i use ubuntu normally :)
[21:48] <charlie-tca> just have the installation process partition the 16gb drive and install there. You need 3GB for /, if home is separate
[21:53] <Mr-Woof> hmm good idea, so if i did install it on an sd card i would need at least 4gb?
[21:54] <slow-motion> n8
[21:54] <charlie-tca> yes, to do the install. It will take just over 1.5 GB when installed
[21:54] <charlie-tca> But it has to have room for the files during the installation process
[21:58] <Mr-Woof> what sort of size are we talking about?
[21:58] <stygian> whats a good font for unicode? this monospace is just giving me lots of ????
[21:58] <charlie-tca> 3 GB minimum for the installation process to proceed
[21:59] <Mr-Woof> k, thanks :)
[21:59] <charlie-tca> stygian: maybe sans will be better for you?
[22:00] <Mr-Woof> out of interest, does anyone in here own a fujitsu siemens v2000d notebook?
[22:01] <charlie-tca> stygian: also, bitstream fonts should work, I think. I use all DejaVu fonts, and only get a couple of ??
[22:03] <Mr-Woof> i can't get the bloody thing to boot from a usb pen drive
[22:08] <Mr-Woof> thanks for the information guys
[22:09] <stygian> heres a better question, how do i get unicode (or even things like ?) to appear in xfterm4?
[22:09] <Mr-Woof> laters
[22:09] <stygian> alls well in firefox and such
[22:17] <TheSheep> stygian: it just works
[22:18] <stygian> ?ss?ae(C) --> ?ss?ae(C)
[22:18] <TheSheep> stygian: look: こんにちは
[22:18] <stygian> "?????"
[22:19] <TheSheep> stygian: did you uninstall anything?
[22:19] <stygian> no
[22:19] <stygian> i evidently didnt have the language pack until about 30 minutes ago though
[22:20] <TheSheep> the basic fonts are installed by default
[22:20] <TheSheep> stygian: what's your locale?
[22:21] <stygian> not sure, how do i find?
[22:21] <TheSheep> stygian: if you type 'locale' in the terminal, what does it say (don't paste it all)
[22:21] <stygian> C
[22:21] <TheSheep> ok, that's broken
[22:22] <TheSheep> log out, choose your locale at login screen, and log in back
[22:22] <stygian> k, 1 sec
[22:24] <arktvrvs> öaha
[22:24] <arktvrvs> great
[22:25] <TheSheep> :0
[22:25] <TheSheep> :)
[22:27] <arktvrvs> ðþ
[22:29] <bpmarkham> hey everyone... while trying to install specific packages or run the update manager on a fresh install of ubuntu or xubuntu the install freezes at "processing triggers for man-db." Any ideas how i can fix or get around this?
[22:31] <Mood> do you have enough HD space?
[22:31] <bpmarkham> Mood: that ? for me?
[22:32] <Mood> yes
[22:32] <bpmarkham> yes i do
[22:32] <bpmarkham> in fact it says it's only gonna take up a couple hundred KB but there's gigs free
[22:37] <Mood> bpmarkham: do you have /usr/lib/man-db/man?
[22:38] <bpmarkham> sb1
[22:38] <Mood> ?
[22:39] <bpmarkham> stand by 1
[22:39] <bpmarkham> yes i do
[22:40] <Mood> bpmarkham: i'd never had that issue myself, but i'd check /var/log files to see if there's any errors not showing up on std output
[22:40] <Mood> having said that, i have to leave now. best of luck to you
[22:41] <bpmarkham> tks mood
[22:52] <bpmarkham> anyone else got any ideas
[22:52] <bpmarkham> hey everyone... while trying to install specific packages or run the update manager on a fresh install of ubuntu or xubuntu the install freezes at "processing triggers for man-db." Any ideas how i can fix or get around this?
[22:57] <Daxie> searching the ubuntu forums had no awnser?
[22:58] <Daxie> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1095564&highlight=processing+triggers+man-db.
[23:08] <bpmarkham> it does this for anything i try to install
[23:08] <bpmarkham> not a one package deal
[23:08] <Daxie> hmm ok
[23:08] <bpmarkham> even when running apt-get upgrade
[23:08] <Daxie> aptitude update ?
[23:09] <bpmarkham> that the same as apt-get update?
[23:09] <Daxie> saver i heard, i use it all the time
[23:11] <bpmarkham> so try aptitude upgrade as well?
[23:11] <Daxie> you can try
[23:13] <bpmarkham> same problem
[23:13] <bpmarkham> stops at "processing triggers for man-db"
[23:14] <Daxie> Hmm ok
[23:14] <bpmarkham> this time it's working on perl base
[23:15] <bpmarkham> "preparing to replace... unpacking replacement... processing triggers for man-db"
[23:16] <bpmarkham> it's like it's got ADD...
[23:16] <bpmarkham> installing, installing, installing, ooo look a shiny object i'm gonna go off into la-la-land now
[23:17] <Daxie> lol
[23:24] <knome> please try to stay sane on the channel ;)
[23:24] <Daxie> you can check with synaptic if there are any broken packages
[23:25] <bpmarkham> how do i go about that?
[23:26] <Daxie> open synaptic Go to EDIT > Fix broken packages. Then "Reload"
[23:26] <bpmarkham> i'll give it a whirl
[23:27] <Daxie> ok, got to go... good luck