[01:00] <pleia2> btw, I sent Chris in your direction (see mailing list)
[03:12] <InHisName> early in boot cycle, my astlinux box (gentoo drivitive)  is trying to do something with hdd, right after it found an hda and said that was fine.    Problem is hdd does not exist.  Where do I start looking for this to remove it from the boot up process ?
[08:47] <JonathanD> Morning.
[08:52] <rmg51> Morning JonathanD
[08:52] <JonathanD> Hey.
[08:52] <rmg51> your early this morning
[08:53] <JonathanD> Yeah.
[08:53] <JonathanD> I need to go to the bank.
[08:54] <rmg51> never knew a bank that was open this early
[08:56] <JonathanD> The ATM is.
[08:56] <JonathanD> And I can do deposits at the ATM.
[11:46] <InHisName> Before that the back even had night deposit.
[11:47] <InHisName> early in boot cycle, my astlinux box (gentoo drivitive)  is trying to do something with hdd, right after it found an hda and said that was fine.    Problem is hdd does not exist.  Where do I start looking for this to remove it from the boot up process ?
[12:02] <InHisName> Oh, yes, good morning folks
[12:07] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples
[12:29] <jedijf> pleia2: i saw - let's see if we can get something rolling with ntr - i have an email out to them
[12:29] <jedijf> pleia2: also saw no more outreach :(
[15:39] <pleia2> jedijf: yay, looks like he got a bite on the nj list
[16:07] <ChinnoDog> I have bacon
[16:28] <MutantTurkey> http://www.reddit.com/r/GaryJohnson/comments/104s07/ran_into_gary_johnson_at_the_liberty_bell_on/
[16:28] <MutantTurkey> getting upvotes is always good
[16:28] <waltman> Should I know who Gary Johnson is?
[16:30] <MutantTurkey> the libertarian candidate for president
[16:41] <MutantTurkey> time to ride the karma train
[16:42] <MutantTurkey> I haven't yet found a good karma train gif
[17:31] <InHisName> hmmm


[08:52] <crimsun> ogra: sorry, I presumed you were using -9
[08:52] <ogra> hmm...its not the kernel
[08:52] <elmo> mdz: done
[08:53] <crimsun> ogra: needed you to back up to -8 if you were using -9. Are you using snd-via82xx?
[08:53] <ogra> crimsun: i have only -5 for testing
[08:53] <T-Bone> lamont: to make things better, the kernel in panicing on halt
[08:53] <ogra> yup
[08:54] <ogra> crimsun: my currently running kernel is -9 ...
[08:54] <lamont> T-Bone: it halted. :-)
[08:54] <T-Bone> lamont: no
[08:55] <T-Bone> had to unplug
[08:55] <lamont> 0 upgraded, 611 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
[08:55] <lamont> Need to get 430MB of archives.
[08:55] <lamont> that's a "go" for ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-base installability on ia64.
[08:55] <lamont> thanks Kamion
[08:55] <T-Bone> lamont: oh btw, don't make ubuntu-dekstop depend on ooffice on ia64, or else it will never install
[08:56] <lamont> T-Bone: that was what Kamion  fixed.
[08:56] <crimsun> ogra: so volume control only now began defaulting to oss?
[08:56] <mdz> lamont: how long before I can expect casper 0.19 binaries (arch all) in the archive so that I can do a new live CD build?
[08:56] <lamont> and ooo2 should fix that the other way
[08:56] <T-Bone> lamont: ah ok cool
[08:56] <lamont> mdz: when did you upload?
[08:57] <mdz> -rw-rw----  1 mdz mdz  302 2005-01-19 11:24 casper_0.19_source.upload
[08:57] <mdz> PST
[08:57] <mdz> ~35 minutes ago
[08:57] <ogra> crimsun: no, it keeps the setting you select....my defaut mixer was oss al the time, since i didnt touch the mixer since the warty upgrade of this lappie
[08:57] <lamont> so the sources should have snapped at 11:33, and binaries should be there at 12:03
[08:58] <mdz> sources aren't there (on archive.u.c anyway)
[08:58] <ogra> crimsun: so it looks like the oss mixer doesnt work anymore but the unselected alsa works fine....
[08:58] <lamont> mdz: and it's uploaded, so it built just fine for you
[08:58] <mdz> lamont: ok, thanks
[08:58] <ogra> crimsun: i'll downgrade hotplug for a test....
[08:58] <mdz> lamont: can you document the time schedule on a wiki page and link it from DeveloperResources?
[08:59] <mdz> lamont: also I think the build logs byDate view (and any others you might have besides the raw index view) should probably be documented there
[08:59] <lamont> mdz: we'll do
[09:00] <lamont> right - BuildDaemonInfo or some such, eh?
[09:00] <Hwolf> Is there any reason for synaptic holding off on upgrading libslt1-python2.4?
[09:02] <mdz> lamont: or ArchiveProcessingSchedule?
[09:02] <Hwolf> libxslt1-python2.4?
[09:03] <lamont> mdz: that doesn't quite describe the byDate stuff though...
[09:03] <mvo_> Hwolf: might be because it was renamed to python2.4-libxslt1
[09:04] <mdz> lamont: whatever you think is best, then
[09:05] <Hwolf> mvo_ Can I safely replace it with the new version?
[09:05] <T-Bone> see yall
[09:06] <mvo_> Hwolf: see the description of the libxslt1-python2.4 package :)
[09:07] <Hwolf> Hm. There is openoffice2-debian in universe, but openoffice2 itself isn't
[09:07] <crimsun> Hwolf: I can't reproduce the sound halt while opening gnome-volume-control.
[09:08] <Hwolf> crimsun: Anything I can do?
[09:08] <crimsun> Hwolf: which device is gnome-volume-control set to manipulate by default (when you open it)?
[09:08] <Hwolf> Audigy-alsa
[09:09] <Hwolf> I get a soundhalt. Closing the program and opening it again causes sound to resume.
[09:10] <Hwolf> -2
[09:10] <Hwolf> 2.6.10-2 is the latest I can see
[09:11] <Hwolf> kernel 2.6.10-2-386
[09:12] <crimsun> Hwolf: alsa-base is 1.0.8-1, and the latest for 386 is 2.6.10-9
[09:12] <Hwolf> crimsun: not according to my hoary :-S
[09:12] <Hwolf> Just ran an upgrade
[09:12] <crimsun> did you update first?
[09:13] <Hwolf> Ofcourse
[09:13] <Hwolf> Got it from my grub menu, so I'm running -2
[09:13] <crimsun> are you using apt-proxy?
[09:13] <Hwolf> No
[09:13] <crimsun> paste me `apt-cache policy linux-image-2.6.10-2-386'
[09:14] <Hwolf> hidde@system:~ $ apt-cache policy linux-image-2.6.10-2-386
[09:14] <Hwolf> linux-image-2.6.10-2-386:
[09:14] <Hwolf>   Installed: 2.6.10-9
[09:14] <Hwolf>   Candidate: 2.6.10-9
[09:14] <Hwolf>   Version Table:
[09:14] <Hwolf>  *** 2.6.10-9 0
[09:14] <Hwolf>         500 http://archive.ubuntu.com hoary/main Packages
[09:14] <Hwolf>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
[09:14] <Hwolf> hidde@system:~ $
[09:14] <crimsun> Hwolf: well, that was supposed to go to me in query, since this isn't directly related to ubuntu development.
[09:15] <Hwolf> excusez-moi
[09:18] <mdz> lamont: hmm, :18 now and still no casper
[09:18] <ogra> crimsun, nothing... no idea what it is (
[09:19] <crimsun> ogra: troubleshooting w/ Hwolf, too
[09:20] <lifeless> daniels: erm....
[09:21] <lifeless>  8879 root       5 -10  836m 583m 6056 S  0.3 57.6  20:04.41 Xorg
[09:22] <mdz> lifeless: there's a Debian bug about X sucking up huge amounts of memory
[09:22] <mdz> lifeless: what sort of apps are you running?
[09:23] <lifeless> overnight, 2* gvim, evo 2.2, 1 uxterm running screen, and xscreensaver was running the lightning screen saver
[09:23] <lifeless> mdz: it was ok before I went to bed.
[09:24] <mvo__> lifeless: it would be nice if you could confirm that #5412 (aptitude wants to remove the kernel) is solved with my latest aptitude upload (if possible)
[09:25] <seb128> haggai: here ?
[09:25] <lifeless> mvo__: erm, next kernel upgrade, sure.
[09:26] <mdz> Kamion: little mirrors from mirnyy, right?  and updates its mirror as part of the CD build process?
[09:27] <mdz> lamont: ran anonftpsync on little, it's there now
[09:32] <crimsun> ogra: I'll need to continue in 4-5 hours, meeting now. I'll forward you anything I uncover.
[09:32] <ogra> thanks :)
[09:39] <lifeless> mdz: anything else you need before I nuke this sucker ?
[09:49] <elmo> err, if I drag a folder  into CD/DVD creator it is _copying_ it right?
[09:49] <elmo> and not symlinking it or something equally retarded
[09:50] <ogra> elmo: i think its something like symlinking until it runs the mkisofs in the background....copying would consume a lot of diskspace
[09:51] <mdz> lifeless: daniels is the one to talk to about it
[09:51] <mdz> elmo: I think it's just remembering the name
[09:51] <ogra> elmo:(and probably a lot of time too if you copy big files between partitions)
[09:51] <mdz> elmo: there's a feature request to have it optionally copy, e.g. to enable copying CDs with a single drive simply
[10:02] <trulux> pitti: libselinux 1.20 for Ubuntu is almost ready
[10:09] <trulux> ajmitch: ping
[10:16] <kent> smurfix, have you checked the temperature of the cpu/motherboard?  my amd system shuts of time to time due to heat :(  Bad cpu-fan i guess..
[10:20] <ajmitch> trulux: back
[10:20] <mdz> Kamion: can I remove any of the casper symlinks yet?
[10:21] <ajmitch> trulux: what changes did you have to make from the sid version? I just recompiled 1.20..
[10:21] <Kamion> elmo: I'm still curious as to why it broke, but I think it's some complicated germinate bug to do with versioned dependencies on virtual packages
[10:21] <Kamion> elmo: I just uploaded libxslt to avoid the problem, since I needed it to work fairly urgently
[10:21] <mdz> Kamion: I need to do another upload anyway
[10:21] <trulux> ajmitch: me too, added extra .ubunut banner to version
[10:21] <Kamion> mdz: yes, go ahead
[10:21] <ajmitch> trulux: hmm, why? :)
[10:21] <trulux> we would need to add our specifical dependencies on it
[10:21] <ajmitch> ok
[10:21] <Kamion> mdz: little mirrors from mirnyy, yes, and anonftpsync is the first thing it does
[10:22] <trulux> ajmitch: to follow standard Ubuntu versioning style
[10:22] <mdz> excellent, thanks
[10:22] <azeem> trulux: it's not .ubuntu though, but ubuntu, AFAIK
[10:22] <ajmitch> check with others here - I thought ubuntu tags on versions was when stuff was patched, not just recompiled
[10:22] <Kamion> mdz: I always use British English keyboard layouts, it's there
[10:22] <ajmitch> hey azeem
[10:22] <azeem> ajmitch: dude
[10:22] <trulux> azeem: ok, rebuilding
[10:23] <mdz> Kamion: on i386 for me, it goes us, british, dvorak
[10:23] <mdz> Kamion: but on amd64 at least it's us, dvorak
[10:23] <Kamion> weirdness, I'd certainly notice immediately if it were missing
[10:23] <azeem> trulux: uhm, I'm no pro on this. That was just a suggestion to check back with the doku
[10:23] <Kamion> might be something to do with keyboard type
[10:23] <Kamion> (at/usb/etc. differ)
[10:23] <trulux> azeem: NP, this doesn't take a life to rebuild
[10:23] <Kamion> there's only one keyboard type on powerpc though, it's all considered to be usb
[10:24] <amu> mdz: hmm probably late 20050119.1 casper cant load ext2, dm_mod
[10:24] <trulux> ajmitch: :)
[10:24] <ajmitch> yeah, it takes about 30 seconds..
[10:24] <Kamion> ajmitch: when we make a source modification to 1.0-1, it becomes 1.0-1ubuntu1
[10:24] <mdz> Kamion: I bet it's only missing when you select location 'united states'
[10:24] <ajmitch> Kamion: great, that's what I thought
[10:24] <ajmitch> trulux: so it should be safe to leave it at 1.20-1
[10:25] <Kamion> ajmitch: you never just recompile without changing the version number (ahem, *shush* those who remember the great archive flush), so it'd have to be something like that
[10:25] <mdz> Kamion: which, come to think of it, it should do consistently on all architectures
[10:25] <Kamion> ajmitch: NOOOOO
[10:25] <ajmitch> Kamion: hmmph
[10:25] <Kamion> mdz: I find that implausible, knowing the kbd-chooser code
[10:25] <ogra> ajmitch: dont make the same error i did ;)
[10:25] <ajmitch> Kamion: source change, or recompile, which is it? :)
[10:25] <mdz> Kamion: I have an i386 to my left, and an amd64 to my right, and the keyboard chooser menu is different
[10:25] <mdz> Kamion: I can take a photo if you like :-)
[10:25] <Kamion> ajmitch: you must not just recompile and leave the version number as it is. It will confuse the world.
[10:25] <ogra> ajmitch: change is it
[10:25] <Kamion> mdz: that might be useful actually
[10:25] <ajmitch> ogra: don't worry, I don't have any upload rights yet :)
[10:25] <mdz> ok, coming up
[10:26] <Kamion> ajmitch: shouldn't you be changing build-dependencies anyway? that's a source modification
[10:26] <ogra> ajmitch: this might be interesting: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Uploads/
[10:26] <ogra> ajmitch: i'm only three in advance of you ;)
[10:26] <ajmitch> Kamion: it has no build-depends, really..
[10:26] <Kamion> ajmitch: also for the real archive I don't think we should do a big rebuild effort; instead, just change the buildds and let things gradually get recompiled as they're moved over anyway
[10:26] <ajmitch> apart from the usual build-essential
[10:27] <Kamion> ajmitch: oh, you mean this is a Debian->Ubuntu port?
[10:27] <mdz> gah
[10:27] <ajmitch> yes
[10:27] <mdz> passwd is asking all the questions
[10:27] <Kamion> ajmitch: does it build from scratch in Ubuntu with no modifications?
[10:27] <ajmitch> of a package that we would love to have in base
[10:27] <mdz> full name, username, password, password-again at least
[10:27] <ajmitch> yes, 1.18 is in ubuntu
[10:27] <ajmitch> 1.20 is in sid
[10:27] <Kamion> ajmitch: so why not just request a sync?
[10:28] <ajmitch> that would be easiest, we're still waiting for manoj's new version to get into sid, iirc
[10:28] <Kamion> ajmitch: from Debian->Ubuntu that's two separate archives so you're allowed to recompile without changing the version number; I thought you were talking about recompiling a package already in the Ubuntu archive
[10:28] <mdz> daniels: ping
[10:29] <ajmitch> we've got a few that will definitely  need version number changes
[10:30] <ajmitch> since they'll need patches, which possibly won't be in hoary
[10:30] <ajmitch> depends on how much of a window to get the userland patches for selinux in
[10:30] <Kamion> you'd want to ask mdz/jdub/some-master-of-the-universe for permission to sync newer versions
[10:31] <ajmitch> and for packages that are in main?
[10:31] <Kamion> we're in upstream version freeze so that would be on a case-by-case basis and had better have a good reason
[10:31] <ogra> ajmitch: UVF ..... you will need a real good reason
[10:32] <ajmitch> that's what I thought..
[10:32] <Kamion> not to say that exceptions can't be made if there is a good reason, but that isn't my call
[10:32] <ajmitch> most of the packages we have to patch are in main, so we'll probably work on a separate archive of patched/upgraded packages until post-hoary
[10:32] <ajmitch> trulux: what do you think?
[10:33] <trulux> ajmitch: I think we could keep ubuntu banner on version strings, as it doesn't harm and it allows you to track the package
[10:34] <pappy-> not for network daemons
[10:34] <pappy-> that hurts security issues
[10:34] <ajmitch> trulux: I mean having a separate apt repository for now
[10:34] <trulux> pappy-: right
[10:35] <pappy-> have it looking as vanilla as it can be
[10:35] <pappy-> prevents information leaking through the network sockets
[10:35] <pappy-> makes it harder for attacks
[10:35] <azeem> ajmitch: what are you working on?
[10:35] <pappy-> locally i don't care personally
[10:35] <trulux> ajmitch: Hardened Debian separates reps, we have one for sid, sarge, woody and hoary
[10:35] <ajmitch> pappy-: I think trulux means just the debian revision, right?
[10:35] <pappy-> because i can do fingerprinting on all of your binaries when i am a user on a local machina.
[10:35] <pappy-> ajmitch: i hope so.
[10:36] <trulux> right
[10:36] <ajmitch> azeem: selinux integration with trulux & others :)
[10:36] <azeem> ah
[10:36] <trulux> yep
[10:36] <trulux> pappy- is completely right, we can't call hardened daemons "-hardened": Oh, this is running apache-1.3.26-hardened
[10:36] <Kamion> pappy-: I'm totally unconvinced by that argument, always have been
[10:37] <trulux> best to leave the kids playing around and breaking their heads before they suddenly discover that it's a hardened package
[10:37] <azeem> "OMG, they run -hardened, off to the next IP"
[10:37] <pappy-> Kamion: i don't care if you are unconvinced.
[10:37] <trulux> azeem: right
[10:37] <Kamion> pappy-: in practice people just scatterbomb attacks without bothering to check the version strings first, and including version strings allows network admins to do auditing of machines
[10:37] <Kamion> pappy-: that's nice of you
[10:37] <ajmitch> azeem: what are you up to?
[10:37] <azeem> ajmitch: lurking
[10:37] <ajmitch> :)
[10:37] <pappy-> Kamion: so you know about "practice" and "scatterbombing"
[10:37] <azeem> hehe
[10:38] <pappy-> Kamion: show me figures.
[10:38] <pappy-> and show me best before dates of zeroday exploits.
[10:38] <pappy-> which make it through the internet "scatterbombing"
[10:38] <azeem> Kamion: show me the money
[10:38] <Kamion> show me a case where people bothered to check the version strings? come on
[10:38] <Kamion> script kiddies never do
[10:39] <trulux> Kamion: but their tools do
[10:39] <Kamion> I don't think yours is any better
[10:39] <mdz> Kamion: aha, in the process of taking the photos I noticed the _other_ difference :-)
[10:39] <mdz> Kamion: i386 is using a PS/2 keyboard, amd64 and powerpc are using USB
[10:39] <pappy-> Kamion: i could care less.  i just leave it up to my users to decide.
[10:39] <mdz> so no british english layout for USB?
[10:39] <trulux> Kamion: i was a script kiddie many time ago, so, maybe i could get some fresh information on this thread
[10:39] <ajmitch> trulux: ok, so can we upload some of this modified stuff to the hoary repository on debian-hardened then? :)
[10:39] <twisted_steel> quick hoary question: am I the only one who can't enter text in the address book applet?
[10:39] <trulux> ajmitch: right
[10:39] <pappy-> trulux: l33t!
[10:39] <Kamion> face it, if you have a network service with a security hole, it'll get exploited whether the version number exposes the fact or not
[10:39] <trulux> pappy-: w00t!
[10:39] <ajmitch> trulux: can I get access? :)
[10:39] <pappy-> Kamion: we are talking about exposing -hardened being a feature on the machine or not.
[10:40] <pappy-> Kamion: it is silly to "show off" with it.
[10:40] <pappy-> Kamion: maybe i don't get it though.
[10:40] <Kamion> mdz: sounds possible if strange; that would certainly be a more relevant distinction
[10:40] <trulux> ajmitch: It's not my box, but i could try to open access for you
[10:40] <pappy-> Kamion: maybe i am too stupid.
[10:40] <ajmitch> ok
[10:40] <pappy-> *g*
[10:40] <trulux> ajmitch: we need to get mcp for install decent repositories
[10:41] <trulux> because I'm using the boxes where I'm a sysadmin to host some stuff
[10:41] <trulux> they are all using hardened debian stuff
[10:41] <Kamion> pappy-: here's a use case: the network admins at the university I used to attend routinely do friendly probing of services throughout the network. Being able to detect vulnerable machines by banner probing allows them to notify local admins of problems often before the kiddies get around to it, which reduces the exposure of the network as a hole.
[10:41] <Kamion> er, whole.
[10:41] <ogra> guys did you consider using -honeypot instead of -hardened (i think it has the same effect)
[10:41] <pappy-> Kamion: i agree with you
[10:42] <trulux> ogra: good point
[10:42] <pappy-> Kamion: but we were up to discussing "showing off l33t security improvements" via changing banners here.
[10:42] <ajmitch> ogra: -rootable sounds better
[10:42] <Kamion> so, if your version string lies about what the binary is, this compromises that goal.
[10:42] <ogra> heh
[10:42] <pappy-> Kamion: i often also deliberately change my banners to weak strings for honeypots
[10:42] <pappy-> Kamion: compromising the goals of lazy admins is what i like.  instead of doing it properly.
[10:42] <pappy-> centralized revision control on the servers.
[10:43] <Kamion> personally I'm all up for having complete package version strings in the banners, but I'm sure I lost that argument a while back
[10:43] <Kamion> openssh does this though, and it's useful
[10:43] <pappy-> Kamion: have all the banners you like
[10:43] <Kamion> well, in an abbreviated form due to crap ssh clients
[10:43] <pappy-> Kamion: i will not support it and i will suppress it whereever i can and force it back to default looking style.
[10:43] <pappy-> i want to make it look like a virgin daemon.
[10:43] <mdz> Kamion: is there any way to override the cdebconf locks so that I can run two instances?
[10:44] <pappy-> its not like some kind of obfuscation.
[10:44] <pappy-> it is just not granting attackers an unwanted (and preventable) advantage.
[10:44] <pappy-> nothing less.
[10:44] <Kamion> pappy-: I'm sure; however I'll do what I think is best for my packages, such as openssh ...
[10:45] <pappy-> Kamion: i don't think you will add -hardened to an openssh package that gets compiled by a hardened compiler.
[10:45] <Kamion> no but the version string will reveal it to one who knows the history of the package
[10:45] <pappy-> And if you did, i would be able to reverse it for my openssh packages.
[10:45] <pappy-> So if we all keep our packages nice and handy.
[10:46] <pappy-> the user base will decide in the end.
[10:46] <Kamion> for somebody coming into an existing community and trying to get them to accept changes, you're taking an awfully aggressive tone, mister
[10:46] <pappy-> Kamion: do you think so, Mister?
[10:47] <pappy-> Kamion: i did not come here, i was invited.
[10:47] <pappy-> you won't have to accept my changes.
[10:47] <azeem> (somebody now tries to be quiet)
[10:47] <pappy-> we just take the best out of your development works and put our stuff into it.
[10:47] <pappy-> whether you like it or not, i am better than you, Kamion.
[10:47] <trulux> Kamion: pappy- is a friend of mine, often he is acid, but he knows pretty well what he talks about
[10:48] <azeem> pappy-: how old are you?
[10:48] <trulux> anyway, don't fight please
[10:48] <pappy-> azeem: not old enough.
[10:48] <Kamion> haha, this is classic
[10:48] <pappy-> trulux: we are just getting warm with each other, thats the usual practice.
[10:48] <azeem> pappy-: there is a code of conduct lying on this channel, did you read it?
[10:49] <pappy-> azeem: should i?
[10:49] <ogra> yup
[10:49] <azeem> if you want to participate and stay, I'd say yes
[10:49] <pappy-> azeem: does it state that i have to shut up?
[10:49] <azeem> pappy-: RTFM
[10:49] <pappy-> azeem: i do not recall starting this "one" here.
[10:49] <pappy-> you may call it "issue".
[10:49] <ogra> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct
[10:49] <pappy-> and i really tend to be bored by stuff like that.
[10:49] <trulux> pappy-: stop please, it's late, no point for make an ass kicking party
[10:49] <pappy-> trulux: am i?
[10:50] <pappy-> trulux: you know me and you know when i reached temperature.  so far i am very very cool.
[10:50] <azeem> still, daniels is the coolest guy on the block
[10:50] <pappy-> trulux: what if this guy treats me like a jackass and thinks he can make something out of it?  putting it bluntly: i won't go down that road in here.
[10:50] <trulux> pappy-: ... don't start such type of conversation again, you know i disliked it when it happened in hard-tch list....
[10:51] <trulux> pappy-: if you don't like Kamion or anyone else, ignore him
[10:51] <trulux> oops
[10:51] <ogra> fh-trier.de ?
[10:52] <mvo_> ogra: fh-trier.de?
[10:52] <trulux> sorry, but don't misunderstand pappy, when you work together with him you know how to enjoy it
[10:52] <ajmitch> that was fun..
[10:52] <trulux> he is just a bit "acid"
[10:53] <trulux> ajmitch: not really but i'm surpirsed
[10:53] <trulux> haven't thought that pappy would start such a flame here ;D
[10:53] <trulux> tseng: hey
[10:54] <trulux> Kamion: there?
[10:54] <Kamion> yes
[10:56] <mdz> Kamion: I just noticed that firmware loading is still broken because the initrd has the old version of hotplug
[10:56] <trulux> Kamion: anything wrong after the little fight? I'm sorry about it, don't be offended, it was just a stupid conversdation typical pof guys working harder in the wrong hours ;)
[10:56] <mdz> Kamion: has the initrd not been rebuilt?
[10:56] <Kamion> mdz: hm, I'll check, what's the fixed version?
[10:56] <mdz> if not, I can't remove the casper symlinks yet, no?
[10:56] <Kamion> yes, it's been rebuilt ...
[10:56] <mdz> Kamion: ubuntu8 or later
[10:57] <Kamion> trulux: not particularly, have just had the same conversation a number of times before and am not particularly impressed with the line of argument, having thought about it in some depth; but he's entitled to his point of view
[10:57] <Kamion> I'm just saddened that people take such hard-line approaches to security
[10:57] <Kamion> mdz: you should have an initrd.list file on the CD
[10:58] <Kamion> in /install
[10:58] <mdz> Kamion: it says ubuntu7
[10:58] <Kamion> hotplug-udeb 0.0.20040329-16ubuntu7
[10:58] <Kamion> hmm, bah
[10:58] <mdz> ubuntu8 was uploaded at ~0100 UTC
[10:58] <mdz> maybe just missed it
[10:59] <trulux> Kamion: i can imagine
[10:59] <Kamion> 1763   F Jan 18 To hoary-change (  46) Accepted debian-installer 20041227ubuntu6
[10:59] <Kamion> 1766     Jan 19 Matt Zimmerman  (  47) Accepted hotplug 0.0.20040329-16ubuntu8 (
[10:59] <trulux> mdz: did you have time to read my paper?
[10:59] <Kamion> mdz: ping lamont for a daily build?
[10:59] <mdz> trulux: URL?
[10:59] <mdz> lamont: ping ^^^
[10:59] <trulux> mdz: it is in the wiki, i sent it to you i think
[11:00] <trulux> anyway, i will grab for it again , NP
[11:00] <Kamion> mdz: I waited for all the symlink changes to be complete and built before uploading the new initrd
[11:00] <mdz> Kamion: ah, ok, so that bit at least is safe
[11:01] <trulux> mdz: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HardeningNeededResources
[11:02] <trulux> mdz: if you give me a chance i can try to do half of the work for SELinux deployment in two weeks
[11:02] <mdz> trulux: I can't offer you human resources; we have none to spare
[11:02] <trulux> it just depends on how and when Hoary will get released
[11:02] <trulux> mdz: NP, i will recruit them ASAP
[11:02] <ajmitch> trulux: you want me to do the other half then? :)
[11:03] <mdz> trulux: so excluding that, you are saying that all you need are machines?
[11:03] <Kamion> trulux: I'm sorry if he felt offended, but he did come back extremely dismissively to my initial remark, before I'd even finished typing the explanation
[11:03] <mdz> trulux: you will take care of autobuild infrastructure and whatever else is necessary?
[11:03] <ajmitch> mdz: there are a few of us working on it
[11:03] <trulux> ajmitch: you will be the one working behind the scenes ;P
[11:03] <ajmitch> selinux deployment shouldn't need much in the way of changes to packages..
[11:04] <ajmitch> trulux: why do I get stuck behind the curtain? :)
[11:04] <Kamion> I understood that there was a good bit of work needed in the packaging toolchain
[11:04] <trulux> mdz: right, we need building machines, and we could take care of the rest of things
[11:04] <trulux> ajmitch: lah, just joking
[11:04] <Kamion> Keybuk works for us is the dpkg maintainer, he's talked to people before about this in case you weren't aware
[11:04] <Kamion> s/is/and is/
[11:05] <trulux> Kamion: yeah, he is not offended, it's difficult to make him feeling like that, don't worry ;)
[11:05] <ajmitch> Kamion: yes, and manoj is working on hacking dpkg at the moment, iirc
[11:05] <Kamion> trulux: heh, should imagine :)
[11:05] <ajmitch> he's been quite active in selinux work lately
[11:05] <trulux> yeah
[11:05] <Kamion> yes, I need to get back to Manoj about openssh
[11:06] <trulux> i must go to bed in 10 mins
[11:06] <trulux> :(
[11:06] <ajmitch> rjc is helping advise on policy, I think
[11:07] <Kamion> trulux: resources> hm, why alpha? we don't support that architecture at the moment
[11:07] <trulux> rjc is one of the best guys to help with that, he has wroten near the 30% of the SELinux policies
[11:07] <jdub> tseng: libdbus-cil
[11:07] <trulux> Kamion: it's not the important one, as seems to be in the last position
[11:07] <mdz> trulux: I don't think it is necessary to try to bootstrap on 5 architectures at once.  I think it might be possible to offer an x86 build machine; I will check into it
[11:07] <jdub> tseng: not sure if daniels has fixed it yet or not
[11:07] <jdub> morning all
[11:07] <trulux> mdz: ok, great
[11:08] <ajmitch> jdub: ubuntu .au meetup going to be in sydney?
[11:08] <ajmitch> mornign jdub
[11:08] <haggai> seb128: back
[11:08] <jdub> the next conf will be in sydney or canberra
[11:08] <trulux> i will try to talk tomorrow night
[11:08] <ajmitch> jdub: aha
[11:08] <trulux> now it's bed time
[11:08] <trulux> good night!
[11:08] <ajmitch> night trulux
[11:09] <sivang> night trulux
[11:09] <ajmitch> jdub: just got to see if I can scrounge up the $ from the govt :)
[11:09] <seb128> haggai: is /usr/share/applnk needed for KDE ? tvtime has 2 desktop files, one in /usr/share/applications/ and one in /usr/share/applnk/ for KDE according to the debian/rules
[11:09] <mdz> Kamion: hey, db_register seems to have done the trick
[11:09] <mdz> I wonder why that wasn't necessary before
[11:09] <Kamion> mdz: you had initial-passwd-udeb loaded by anna, probably
[11:10] <Kamion> mdz: that would have loaded the questions
[11:10] <mdz> ahh
[11:10] <Kamion> but now nothing was registering the questions so there was nothing for db_set/db_fset to work on
[11:10] <mdz> makes sense
[11:11] <mdz> Kamion: last bit is to change sudoers to use NOPASSWD
[11:11] <Kamion> not something that had occurred to me in advance, but debconf-set-selections does a similar trick for preseed
[11:11] <mdz> is there a way to specify a sed address range which means "the line _after_ the one matching this regex?"
[11:11] <Kamion> mdz: perhaps a never-asked debconf question in shadow would be better?
[11:11] <Kamion> "Require password for sudo?"
[11:12] <mdz> mvo_: update-notifier is segfaulting for me on the live CD
[11:12] <mdz> Kamion: if you're ok with that, sure
[11:12] <mdz> Kamion: casper also currently forces the user password to empty, but I'd like to find a better way for that too
[11:13] <Kamion> yeah, not sure how to work that
[11:13] <mdz> group setup seems to work fine
[11:13] <trulux> ajmitch: http://apt.debian-hardened.org/hoary/
[11:14] <trulux> ajmitch: there you can find the new packages, just finished the uploading and repository updating
[11:14] <trulux> now, bye!
[11:14] <ajmitch> great, thanks :)
[11:14] <trulux> ajmitch: err, tell pitti about them, so he could make the upload
[11:14] <trulux> bonna noite!
[11:14] <trulux> :)
[11:14] <mdz> gah, so hot here
[11:14] <mdz> 30C today
[11:15] <haggai> seb128: not any more - that was the older KDE standard but current KDE can also use /usr/share/applications
[11:15] <ajmitch> trulux: we *have* to work on a better method of installing policy - answering 1001 questions is not a good way :)
[11:15] <mvo_> mdz: segfaulting :( ?
[11:15] <Simira> mdz: send some over here!
[11:16] <seb128> haggai: ok, so I can drop the /usr/share/applnk one (that makes a double entry in the GNOME menu) ?
[11:16] <Kamion> mdz: has California moved to the southern hemisphere recently or something?
[11:16] <mdz> mvo_: yes, i can send a stack trace if you need one
[11:16] <mvo_> mdz: reproduceable?
[11:16] <mdz> Kamion: it stopped raining
[11:16] <haggai> seb128: yup, please do
[11:16] <mvo_> mdz: please do
[11:16] <Riddell> haggai: what was the change that you made to KDE's menus?
[11:16] <mdz> and now we have record heat instead
[11:16] <mdz> which, mind you, is preferable
[11:16] <mdz> mvo_: 100%
[11:17] <seb128> haggai: nice, thanks
[11:17] <haggai> Riddell: using the Gnome template (looking for filename)
[11:17] <Kamion> mdz: I think you lied and you don't live in California at all; you really live somewhere in the sixth circle of Hell
[11:17] <Kamion> mdz: it's good that they let you out for holidays though
[11:17] <mvo_> mdz: is it on a downloadable image? if so I would like to grab it and have a look
[11:17] <mdz> http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/USCA1107_c.html?force_units=1
[11:17] <haggai> Riddell: /etc/menu-methods/stuff
[11:17] <mdz> mvo_: the downloadable image requires a few fixes in order to work
[11:17] <mdz> need to wait for casper 0.21 to build, and then do another live CD build
[11:18] <Kamion> mdz: gar, apt still thinks the cache is not authenticated
[11:18] <mdz> average high for january is usually 19C
[11:18] <Kamion> mdz: /var/lib/apt/lists/_cdrom_dists_hoary_Release.gpg exists
[11:18] <Riddell> haggai: what is the advantage in your change?
[11:18] <mvo_> mdz: then just send me the stacktrace please. and ping me when a live-cd is ready
[11:18] <jdub> haggai: lots of OnlyDisplayIn=KDE stuff to be done
[11:18] <jdub> haggai: want me to file bugs for you?
[11:19] <Kamion> mdz: however apt-cdrom doesn't appear to have added a _Release.gpg file
[11:19] <jdub> haggai: i might just mail the kubuntu lists when i set them up
[11:19] <jdub> haggai: you definitely want kubuntu and kubuntu-devel?
[11:19] <mdz> hmm, still no oo.o2 build? :-(
[11:19] <Kamion> mdz: can I make it do so?
[11:19] <Riddell> jdub: kubuntu-user and kubuntu-devel I'd say
[11:19] <mdz> Kamion: hmm, apt-cdrom is weird
[11:20] <mdz> Kamion: I don't think anyone has considered the possibilty of signed CDs as yet
[11:20] <Kamion> can somebody consider it real fast? :)
[11:20] <mdz> copying _Release.gpg into place will override it and have it consider the source authenticated
[11:20] <mdz> but it really ought to verify the signature before doing that
[11:20] <Kamion> it doesn't seem to copy the Release file even
[11:21] <mdz> weird, I say
[11:21] <robtaylor__> fabbione: ping?
[11:21] <Kamion> mdz: so I could work around it in archive-copier? it's blocking Array CD 3 so a quick fix would be ideal
[11:22] <mdz> elmo: around?
[11:22] <mdz> haggai: what's the next blocker for oo.o2?
[11:23] <haggai> Riddell: 1. the files conflict 2. attempt to follow ubuntu menu structure
[11:24] <haggai> mdz: moz problems, the same as are blocking OOo1
[11:24] <Kamion> mdz: copying Release and Release.gpg seems to work; how evil is that?
[11:24] <Kamion> assuming I do a gpgv first
[11:24] <haggai> mdz: ubunutu's libs now have extra symbols in them which breaks OOo's internal moz libs
[11:24] <mdz> haggai: who's working on it?
[11:25] <haggai> mdz: me
[11:25] <mdz> haggai: oh, good :-)
[11:25] <mdz> is it a mozilla problem or an oo.o problem?
[11:25] <mdz> Kamion: it's less evil if you do a gpgv first
[11:25] <haggai> OOo really, it's their b0rken internal patched libs that cause the problem
[11:25] <mdz> Kamion: at that point, it's only as evil as messing with /var/lib/dpkg
[11:25] <haggai> but because of their patches it makes it hard to fix quickly
[11:26] <haggai> jdub: re OnlyDisplayIn=KDE, why is that needed?
[11:26] <jdub> haggai: things like kcontrol, etc.
[11:26] <mvo_> mdz: I can have a look at the stacktrace today, otherwise I go to sleep :)
[11:26] <jdub> haggai: logged into gnome with kde installed recently? :)
[11:26] <haggai> jdub: surely if they are installed on the box, they should have menu entries?
[11:26] <haggai> jdub: yeah :)
[11:26] <jdub> haggai: not everything should
[11:27] <jdub> kcontrol (particularly where it sits in the menus, but even disregarding that) really shouldn't
[11:27] <Kamion> mdz: OK, I think I'll do that, mark it TODO, and file a bug
[11:28] <haggai> jdub: ok, take e.g. you install a kde proggy on your mainly gnome system and don't use KDE.  The prog has a kcontrol module - now what?
[11:28] <mdz> mvo_: go to sleep; I will mail you something
[11:29] <jdub> haggai: in general, i'd hope that the app would point to it too
[11:29] <mvo_> mdz: thanks
[11:29] <jdub> haggai: see nautilus file manager properties, etc.
[11:29] <jdub> haggai: my only worry with splitting off kubuntu-* is that we'll miss out on lots of integration discussion
[11:30] <jdub> haggai: i'll almost certainly subscribe to kubuntu-devel, but won't be tracking it closely
[11:30] <robtaylor_> hey. i've just been playing with getting jackd to work on ubuntu :)
[11:30] <haggai> jdub: yeah, I understand that, but the ubuntu lists are already too much traffic
[11:30] <haggai> jdub: they are not a friendly place to nuture new devs who aren't into Gnome ;)
[11:31] <robtaylor_> 1 problem from the off, apparently the realtime-lsm module needs security configured as a module. any chance of this happening?
[11:31] <jdub> haggai: that's definitely true
[11:31] <jdub> haggai: but i'm already convinced
[11:32] <jdub> haggai: i'm wondering how to help with the integration problems it introduces
[11:32] <haggai> jdub: we should maybe crosspost stuff that is applicible to both or something, but I think much traffic won't be really interesting such as whether to include the menu shadow patch or not etc
[11:32] <haggai> jdub: maybe we need a place to talk about derived distributions in general?  oh no another list..
[11:32] <jdub> fear :)
[11:33] <robtaylor_> haggai: and debian-custom wont suffice?
[11:33] <jdub> this is about ubuntu derivatives
[11:33] <lifeless> daniels: ping
[11:34] <haggai> robtaylor_: I guess debian-custom would only be suitable for a subset of the discussion, since much will talk about deriving from ubuntu
[11:34] <robtaylor_> haggai: yep, i'm seeing the issue now
[11:35] <robtaylor_> whats kde doing on the sound server front, out of interest?
[11:36] <haggai> dieing slowly :(
[11:36] <robtaylor_> :(
[11:36] <haggai> the arts maintainer has just thrown in the towel
[11:36] <robtaylor_> cos this is something it'd be nice to solve for both desktops..
[11:36] <robtaylor_> well,i can see why..
[11:36] <haggai> yup, maybe polypaudio is the way to go.  I'm not following the KDE discussion
[11:36] <jdub> haggai: polypaudio... :)
[11:37] <jdub> is lennart on the kde lists?
[11:37] <haggai> jdub: dude I was at the BOF :)
[11:37] <jdub> pushing for it?
[11:37] <haggai> no idea sorry
[11:38] <robtaylor_> jdub: what do you reckon to the curredn discussion on desktop-devel-list? i think i'm just pretty much reiterating what we decide at the bof, no?
[11:38] <jdub> nothing's going to happen in 2.10 timeframe
[11:38] <robtaylor_> obviously :/
[11:39] <jdub> for 2.12, gnome will switch to gstreamer at the library level and deprecate esound
[11:39] <robtaylor_> i'm slighty confuesed about this, i thought gstreamer only defined audio chains *within* a process?
[11:40] <sivang> mdz: so udebs are not at all suited at creating live cd targets? maybe casper could be used to create installer iso then :)
[11:40] <robtaylor_> surely you need to specify that apps should use gstreamer-polypaudio as the final sink/
[11:41] <robtaylor_> or is this something runtime configurable, and i've missed something completely? ;)
[11:46] <mdz> sivang: udebs are used only for the bootstrap process
[11:46] <mdz> sivang: you don't need to change the bootstrap process at all
[11:46] <ajmitch> jdub: how many more gnome 2.x releases are planned?
[11:46] <Kamion> sivang: casper is very specific to the live CD task ...
[11:46] <sivang> Kamion,mdz : ok :) I will try to keep on track :)
[11:47] <sivang> mdz: what is the casper applet? what python modules are needed to run it?
[11:47] <jdub> ajmitch: NaN
[11:47] <Kamion> jdub: *laugh*
[11:48] <thully> Hi - which snapshot of Hoary works best for installation?  I tried the last few days and they didn't work well - also, I tried installing Warty and then dist-upgrading from a snapshot CD (as I already had one burned and didn't want to download again) and I got a bunch of dependency problems.
[11:48] <jdub> ajmitch: http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/blog/projects/gnome/1095703226
[11:49] <sivang> mdz: could you tell me how do I extract the cloop image so I can loop mount it?
[11:49] <ajmitch> heh
[11:50] <mvo_> mdz: thanks for the backtrace
[11:50] <mdz> sivang: you use the tools in cloop-utils
[11:50] <mdz> sivang: the casper applet is hypothetical
[11:50] <mdz> I haven't written it yet
[11:50] <amu> sivang: extract_compressed_fs  filename.cloop >bla.chroot
[11:51] <ajmitch> jdub: I guess the gnome people are wanting to commit to ABI/API stability for awhile then?
[11:51] <sivang> amu,mdz : thanks alot :)
[11:51] <jdub> ajmitch: see live.gnome.org/ThreePointZero
[11:52] <mdz> sivang: my thanks will be good documentation for the customisation process ;-)
[11:52] <Kamion> thully: 20050119.2 appears to work except that it has problems with apt authentication so you have to say 'y' to aptitude
[11:52] <jdub> ajmitch: the major interest in 3.0 is deprecating the crap
[11:52] <jdub> ajmitch: well, sorry, removing the deprecated crap
[11:52] <Kamion> thully: this turns out to be because apt-cdrom doesn't support authentication, so I'm testing a workaround right now
[11:52] <ajmitch> jdub: that's what I understood, that there's a fair bit of accumulated crap since 2.0 :)
[11:52] <ajmitch> that has been deprecated
[11:53] <thully> oh - cool, the last few releases have had some significant breakage - does this image fix the issue where the created user isn't in the sudoers group?
[11:53] <ajmitch> sadly I've only done a little coding with gnome, mostly with python
[11:53] <thully> not group - file I mean
[11:53] <Kamion> thully: yes, I fixed that a day or two ago; nobody reported it :P
[11:53] <jdub> not much has actually been deprecated yet
[11:53] <jdub> but there are lots of things to be purged
[11:53] <Kamion> I happened to notice it myself :)
[11:53] <mdz> Kamion: lamont has done a d-i build for us; do i need to get elmo to BYHAND it?
[11:54] <Kamion> mdz: yeah
[11:54] <mdz> elmo: pretty please?
[11:54] <thully> I'm still seeing the date problems that I've seen since the warty pre-release
[11:54] <thully> timezone, I mean
[11:54] <Kamion> thully: there was also a good deal of breakage in ubuntu-desktop installability which I only managed to sort out today
[11:54] <sivang> mdz: Ok, on the TODO list, I don't forget promising this :)
[11:54] <Kamion> thully: gah, how can that have persisted?!
[11:55] <thully> well, I wonder how it slipped into the Warty release even!  evidently I'm the only Ubuntu user who uses dial-up a significant amount
[11:55] <Kamion> I don't understand this at all, that code is now in an utterly different place
[11:55] <thully> Well, it doesn't happen on Debian - maybe check their code
[11:55] <Kamion> thully: we were already using their code
[11:55] <thully> yes - but with changes
[11:56] <Kamion> yes, I know, I made most of those changes
[11:56] <Kamion> which is why I'm so baffled
[11:57] <thully> I dunno - I'll jive 0119.2 a shot and see if it by any chance disappears
[11:57] <thully> give
[11:57] <Kamion> thully: you've tried an image that has the timezone question in the first stage, I take it?
[11:57] <thully> yeser
[11:57] <thully> yes
[11:58] <Kamion> ok
[11:58] <Kamion> thanks for your eternal patience :-)
[11:58] <Kamion> I'd like to know what /etc/timezone, the /etc/localtime symlink, and 'date' look like when chrooted into /target before the first reboot
[11:59] <thully> So, does anyone know why autohinter is disabled by default in recent Hoary snapshots?  I liked having it on by default (it's subpixel which causes issues on CRT, not autohinter)
[11:59] <Kamion> hwclock.sh is not now run during the timezone question, which I'd thought might be what was causing your problem
[11:59] <jdub> so i looked at the ubuntu backports repos yesterday
[11:59] <thully> Kamion: I'll check that out
[11:59] <jdub> they are *insane*
[12:00] <Kamion> hwclockfirst.sh *should* take care of it
[12:00] <jdub> there are going to be a bunch of very unhappy users trying to upgrade to hoary soon
[12:00] <crimsun> jdub: because of the version madness?
[12:00] <jdub> yeah
[12:00] <ajmitch> jdub: brokenness?
[12:00] <Kamion> what have they done?
[12:00] <jdub> serious, serious brokenness
[12:00] <mdz> jdub: those repositories sprung up like a week after warty released
[12:00] <jdub> Kamion: you kinda have to look at the version numbers to truly understand
[12:00] <mdz> jdub: *six months* ffs
[12:00] <jdub> mdz: uh huh.
[12:01] <mdz> people are so afraid to upgrade to hoary that they are willing to subject themselves to worse breakage because of backports
[12:01] <ajmitch> oh how I need a decent monitor for my hoary box, to see gnome in all its glory
[12:01] <elmo> uh.. another d-i daily?
[12:01] <Kamion> the 403 on warty-backports/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz is pretty special
[12:02] <Kamion> elmo: mdz was crying for it for live CD testing :-)
[12:02] <mdz> elmo: the hotplug fix I did yesterday didn't make it, apparently


[00:14] <Jordan_U> @mark #ubuntu gt8ost4l For some reason *really* wants to install NDISWrapper even though they have an Atheros card supported by ath9k. Refused to believe me when I said that NDISWrapper was not the way to solve their problem.
[00:15] <bazhang> ndis was a bad idea even back when suse was v10
[00:15] <bazhang> thats like the dapper days
[00:16] <Jordan_U> Yeah. I'm kind of curious how they decided that NDISWrapper was a good idea.
[01:04] <stevendale> Requesting all-clear to join #ubuntu-offtopic
[01:05] <phunyguy> denied.
[01:05] <stevendale> phunyguy: Why?
[01:13] <stevendale> Why?
[01:18] <stevendale> Your argument is invalid. Goodbye.
 we are anounymous
[01:23] <chu> a noun!
[01:23] <bazhang> relegated to a guest account without a spellcheck
[01:23] <bazhang> hehe
[04:53] <stevendale> Why are you so insistant on not helping me?
[04:55] <stevendale> Do you honestly think that after the number of times I have gotten into trouble, that I haven't learned anything?
[04:56] <chu> stevendale: Basically, we've given you warnings, tried to hold your hand a bit, but in the end always the same story. You just waste our time and it's not worth the effort.
[04:57] <stevendale> And now, I want you to 'hold my hand' because I won't get much farther without commitment
[05:02] <chu> I'm sorry stevendale, I can't give you another chance, and I believe that the other operators tend to feel the same way.


[06:22] <didrocks> good morning
[06:38] <duflu> Morning didrocks
[06:41] <didrocks> hey duflu
[07:45] <duflu> willcooke, jibel, morning! I can't yet raise koza and seb is out for a bit. Do you want to do the Bluetooth meeting?
[07:45] <willcooke> hi duflu
[07:45] <willcooke> seb can't make it either
[07:45] <willcooke> and I dont really have anything to discuss
[07:45] <willcooke> so I'm happy to skip
[07:45] <duflu> willcooke, only 5.50 is now in cosmic.
[07:46] <duflu> That is all
[07:46] <willcooke> ah nice one
[07:47] <duflu> Trevinho, are you around?
[07:48] <didrocks> hey willcooke
[07:50] <jibel> duflu, okay to skip
[07:53] <willcooke> hey didrocks
[08:03] <Laney> boop
[08:03] <andyrock> good morning all
[08:04] <didrocks> hey Laney, andyrock
[08:06] <willcooke> morning Laney andyrock
[08:06] <duflu> Morning andyrock
[08:06] <duflu> Morning Laney
[08:07] <duflu> more likely that than a supermarkey purchase just occurred
[08:07] <duflu> or supermarkey
[08:07] <duflu> or supermarket
[08:07]  * duflu frowns at keyboard
[08:09] <Laney> hey didrocks & willcooke & duflu :>
[08:12] <Laney> oh and andyrock!
[08:12] <Laney> where are you in the world atm?
[08:12] <andyrock> back in europe
[08:13] <andyrock> safe in homeland
[08:13] <andyrock> XD
[08:14] <andyrock> I travelled back yesterday
[08:15] <Laney> :>
[08:23] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[08:24] <willcooke> hi seb128
[08:24] <seb128> sorry I was late for the bluetooth meeting
[08:25] <seb128> I didn't have much to contribute anyway, just that I uploaded the bluez update from d_uflu yesterday
[08:25] <willcooke> seb128, we skipped it
[08:25] <willcooke> :)
[08:25] <seb128> I saw
[08:25] <seb128> wfm :)
[08:27] <Laney> moin seb128
[08:28] <didrocks> salut seb128
[10:18] <willcooke> Anyone know if it's possible to disable GNOME Shells positioning of pop up windows in the centre of the main application window?
[10:18] <willcooke> specically, I'm doing some stuff if LibreOffice and the chart options window is smack in the middle where I want to see behind it
[10:19] <duflu> willcooke, I think gnome-tweaks lets you change it?
[10:19] <ahayzen> willcooke, you probably need to disable "Attach Modal Dialogues" in Tweaks -> Windows
[10:20] <willcooke> yay, that did it!
[10:20] <willcooke> thanks chaps
[11:16] <Trevinho> didrocks: hey, have you seen the git repo now?
[11:17] <didrocks> Trevinho: no, you didn't tell me you were done, are you?
[11:17] <Trevinho> didrocks: yeah, I should had to mail you since I finished last night
[11:18] <Trevinho> didrocks: anyway it is
[11:18] <didrocks> can you paste again the url? as it's not under ~ubuntu-desktop
[11:18]  * didrocks will look this afternoon
[11:18]  * Trevinho can't push there :(
[11:18] <Trevinho> https://code.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+git/gnome-shell
[11:18] <didrocks> thanks!
[11:18] <didrocks> 5 hours ago was last night? :)
[11:19] <Trevinho> I didn't add anything to the wiki, but I can add what I did there or somewhere else
[11:19] <Trevinho> extended version of night
[11:19] <Trevinho> well you were not up yet :-D
[11:19] <didrocks> I guess ubuntu/bionic-3.28.2-sru and ubuntu/master-next are branch that you will delete one merged?
[11:19] <didrocks> I definitily was at 8am ;)
[11:19] <Trevinho> yes
[11:20] <didrocks> but master == current cosmic and /bionic == current bionic, correct?
[11:20] <Trevinho> ah, I mean last time I checked the channel I dindn't see you... but anyways, no worries
[11:20] <didrocks> (well current + staged changes maybe)
[11:20] <Trevinho> didrocks: currently it's: ubuntu/bioinc current bionic, ubuntu/master proposed cosmic (and bionic SRU)
[11:21] <didrocks> Trevinho: ok
[11:21] <Trevinho> (proposed by me I mean
[11:21] <Trevinho> but see the tags to refer to what it is)
[11:21] <didrocks> as long as we didn't diverge, I don't think we should branch
[11:21] <didrocks> (see the wiki)
[11:21] <didrocks> only when we need to have a different maintenance branch, we should
[11:21] <Trevinho> tey're not diverged so far, but I've kept them around for simplicity
[11:21]  * didrocks gbp clone lp:~3v1n0/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell
[11:22] <didrocks> Trevinho: I'll let you remove master-next and bionic-* as it's not propsoed SRU from what you told ^
[11:22] <Trevinho> didrocks: need to add to the wiki to remember to make sure that lp config remote HEAD points to ubuntu/master as to me it wasn't and gbp clone failed :)
[11:22] <didrocks> Trevinho: it's on the wiki, in the procedure
[11:23] <didrocks> if you look at the last step for creating a new page
[11:23] <Trevinho> didrocks: yeah, I can remove them right now... for now just look at the content. Branches structure is not final
[11:23] <didrocks> repo*
[11:23] <didrocks> Trevinho: ok, i'll make as if those 2 branches don't exist, as they shouldn't
[11:23] <Trevinho> didrocks: ah, ok :), I failed to read it thenxD
[11:24] <didrocks> 8. Configure launchpad
[11:24] <didrocks> Visit the repository page on Launchpad, and set the default branch to ubuntu/master. Also, remove the bzr branch if available to prevent other people relying on it, after checking that any pending change have been transferred to the git branch.
[11:24] <didrocks> I guess that's an explicit step :p
[11:25] <Trevinho> didrocks: yes, if just my reading way would be linear
[11:25] <Trevinho> didrocks: anyway I've deleted the branches
[11:25] <didrocks> thx
[11:25] <didrocks> so, looking at it
[11:26] <didrocks> upstream/3.28.1 is imported into 3.28.1-0ubuntu2
[11:26] <didrocks> not 3.28.1-0ubuntu1
[11:26] <Trevinho> didrocks: and, one thing... upstream/latest, probably I should change it so that the commit to import all the version we diverged are made by us, not like in salsa
[11:26] <didrocks> I guess that was your first import?
[11:27] <didrocks> Trevinho: I don't think we should, the data should be the same being imported by us or debian
[11:27] <didrocks> and we wanted to have that merged back at some point
[11:27] <Trevinho> didrocks: it is, a part from the "new upstream version" thing, and not doing that gbp import-orig will fail
[11:27] <Trevinho> as the tag already exist
[11:27] <Trevinho> of course we can remove and readd... but...
[11:28] <Trevinho> (importing with skip-tag)
[11:28] <didrocks> Trevinho: sorry, do you answer on my question or the rewrite of upstream/latest?
[11:28] <Trevinho> didrocks: yes, that will be merged back then (i've also changes for going back to debian + ubuntu stuff)
[11:28] <Trevinho> didrocks: a sec, I was about to do it :)
[11:29] <didrocks> I'm really confused, not sure to understand you at all
[11:29] <didrocks> "that" being?
[11:30] <didrocks> and my question was not a yes/no question :p
[11:30] <didrocks> also, what are you about to do?
[11:30] <didrocks> can you just answer the question first, then, we can discuss potential changes, please don't touch anything :p
[11:30] <Trevinho> I'm not
[11:31] <Trevinho> didrocks: as your question, my first import is 3.28.2. I've started this way: went back to were we diverged, merged with our bzr changes, then imported the dsc then imported the orig for 3.28.2
[11:32] <didrocks> imported the dsc was 3.28.1-0ubuntu2, correct?
[11:32] <Trevinho> "that"? in what sentence?
[11:32] <Trevinho> yep
[11:33] <didrocks> 13:28:35  Trevinho | didrocks: yes, that will be merged back then (i've also changes for going back to debian + ubuntu stuff)
[11:33] <Trevinho> didrocks: upstream/latest = that
[11:33] <didrocks> ok, but don't rewrite the history from debian
[11:33] <didrocks> keep the import to the salsa imports
[11:33] <didrocks> in upstream/latest
[11:34] <Trevinho> ok, that's what I did initially...
[11:34] <didrocks> yeah, this is the current branch from what I see
[11:34] <Trevinho> as I said the only problem is that in this scenario we've already a tag, so we need to remove temporarly, import without adding, and readd I guess?
[11:34] <didrocks> hum
[11:34] <didrocks> which tag exactly?
[11:34] <Trevinho> upstream/3.28.2
[11:35] <didrocks> what did you rewrite that one?
[11:35] <Trevinho> We can also use someting else than upstream/*
[11:35] <Trevinho> but...
[11:35] <didrocks> I don't think it's necessary
[11:35] <didrocks> keep salsa's one
[11:35] <didrocks> and only import the dsc
[11:35] <didrocks> no?
[11:35] <didrocks> s/what/why/
[11:35] <Trevinho> I can't import the dsc for 3.28.2, as there's not one (from us)
[11:35] <didrocks> you import the dsc for 3.28.2-0ubuntu2 from what I see
[11:36] <didrocks> which shouldn't be an issue, as this isn't a -0ubuntu1
[11:36] <Trevinho> nope, I've imported the 3.28.1*
[11:36] <Trevinho> (dsc)
[11:36] <didrocks> | | |       Import Debian changes 3.28.1-0ubuntu2
[11:36] <didrocks> this is the version you imported
[11:37] <didrocks> as the first one, after diverging from debian
[11:37] <Trevinho> yes, .1 not .2
[11:37] <didrocks> ah sorry, they alread have 3.28.2
[11:37] <didrocks> hum
[11:37] <didrocks> but
[11:37] <didrocks> we don't have a dsc for it
[11:37]  * didrocks checks rmadison
[11:37] <didrocks> so you don't need to import anything?
[11:38] <Trevinho> exactly
[11:38] <didrocks> yep, nothing publish with it
[11:38] <didrocks> so, keep usptream one
[11:38] <Trevinho> yes, I've imported 3.28.2 orig
[11:38] <didrocks> don't rewrite their history
[11:38] <Trevinho> ok, that's fine
[11:38] <didrocks> as it's already imported
[11:38] <didrocks> good :)
[11:38] <Trevinho> we can use upstream-ubuntu/latest if you want instead
[11:39] <didrocks> no, please, stick with DEP14
[11:39] <didrocks> let's use their version
[11:39] <didrocks> and upstream/latest
[11:39] <didrocks> no need to double import the same tarballs
[11:39] <Trevinho> ok, ok... so let me redo that step as I did it before
[11:39] <didrocks> let me finish reviewing before doing this
[11:39] <Trevinho> sure
[11:39] <didrocks> so, from what I see, we ends up:
[11:39] <Trevinho> workitem at least
[11:39] <didrocks> ubuntu changes
[11:39] <didrocks> debian changes until we diverge
[11:39] <didrocks> ubuntu changes with debian/ only branch
[11:39] <didrocks> in that order (from HEAD to older changes)
[11:40] <didrocks> correct?
[11:41] <Trevinho> depend on what visualizer you'r looking at, but base is: salsa until we diverge + ubuntu-only changes + new upstream
[11:41] <didrocks> no
[11:41] <didrocks> well, not in git lg
[11:41] <Trevinho> check it in git log --graph
[11:41] <didrocks> and you should see the same
[11:41] <didrocks> that's what I'm doing
[11:41] <didrocks> | * commit 1db18800539046637e20cb710cf1226f2959e515
[11:41] <didrocks> is a parent of:
[11:41] <didrocks> *   commit 8682b3949d1a458a5406761c98debd5431a30209
[11:42] <didrocks> ah no, next to it
[11:42] <didrocks> let me go to the merge commit
[11:42] <didrocks> ok, up to * | |   commit 073068c3c5c70320a92275fe59bba229c60e3182
[11:42] <didrocks> which merges the 2 branches
[11:43] <Trevinho> (gitg is nicer to read these things :))
[11:43] <didrocks> I find it puzzling that this is the commit with that message:
[11:43] <didrocks> Import Debian changes 3.28.1-0ubuntu2
[11:43] <didrocks> but we have: | * commit 48f0e20cafd6523683716c732ea0150e40ecfd5e (tag: ubuntu/3.28.1-0ubuntu2)
[11:43] <didrocks> which is a children of it
[11:43] <Trevinho> didrocks: yeah, so..... that's another thing I wanted to ask
[11:43] <didrocks> so we don't have commit corresponding to it
[11:43] <Trevinho> since.... we should presever which one?
[11:43] <Trevinho> we can decide which one of two being it
[11:43] <Trevinho> maybe the one mergin in that case
[11:43] <Trevinho> discarding the bzr one
[11:43] <didrocks> on that one, I would put it on the merge commit
[11:44] <didrocks> as it's the one which would work with gbp buildpackage
[11:44] <Trevinho> I was also undecided about that
[11:44] <didrocks> ofc, then people shouldn't rely that older commits will work with it: ubuntu/3.28.1-0ubuntu1
[11:44] <didrocks> as it's debian/ only
[11:44] <Trevinho> yep
[11:44] <Trevinho> ok let me update those two tags then?
[11:45] <didrocks> sure
[11:45] <Trevinho> I can describe the extra steps I did then, it's nothing really time consuming and imho it keeps things nicely
[11:45] <didrocks> ok, git blame is what I expect
[11:45] <didrocks> let me finish reviewing
[11:45] <didrocks> you didn't follow the import guide though :p
[11:46] <didrocks> debian/control didn't udpate the Vcs tags
[11:46] <didrocks> nor point to salsa one
[11:46] <Trevinho> yes I did :o
[11:46] <Trevinho> or maybe.... wait since I went back a few times in reflog
[11:46] <didrocks> wait, my fault
[11:46] <didrocks> let me reset :p
[11:46] <didrocks> (navigating too much in history)
[11:46] <Trevinho> I would have done that even without reading the guide though :D
[11:47] <didrocks> no
[11:47] <didrocks> at least, not on ubuntu-master
[11:47] <didrocks> Vcs-Bzr: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/gnome-shell/ubuntu
[11:47] <didrocks> nothing git
[11:47] <didrocks> or is it just my checkout?
[11:48] <didrocks> and ubuntu/bionic didn't update debian/gbp.conf as in the guide :p
[11:48] <didrocks> don't tell you followed it it's a step as well ;)
[11:48] <seb128> good morning Trevinho, how are you?
[11:48] <didrocks> 2. Update debian/gbp.conf to reference correct upstream gbp branch
[11:48] <didrocks> # edit debian/gbp.conf and replace with '''upstream-branch=upstream/3.28.x'''
[11:48] <didrocks> $ git commit -a
[11:49] <Trevinho> hi seb128 all good, you?
[11:49] <didrocks> and: Create a maintenance branch
[11:49] <didrocks> section
[11:49] <seb128> I'm good, thanks
[11:49] <didrocks> and same Vcs-Bzr: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/gnome-shell/ubuntu
[11:49] <Trevinho> didrocks: how is that I've Vcs-git here? :o
[11:50] <Trevinho> didrocks: 61f8b5c1dd6dc61f39b502a90a323c8bb5dc5c00
[11:50] <didrocks> Trevinho: https://git.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/tree/debian/control.in?id=a119c39faac273282d1d2f88975dc1d82f8904cd#n58
[11:50] <didrocks> well, launchpad agrees with me
[11:51] <Trevinho> fckkk, I do to... as I change control, not contorl.in
[11:51] <Trevinho> :)
[11:51] <Trevinho> so i did it, but in the wrong path. I was sure about
[11:51] <Trevinho> eh https://git.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/tree/debian/control
[11:51] <Trevinho> :)
[11:51] <didrocks> Trevinho: ok, so I suggest
[11:52] <Trevinho> well I'll edit the commit no worries
[11:52] <didrocks> edit the wiki to add those steps (or copy it)
[11:52] <didrocks> then, redo frmo scratch to check the steps are working
[11:52] <didrocks> and have a clean branch
[11:52] <didrocks> don't create a maintainance branch yet as we didn't diverge
[11:52] <didrocks> sounds good?
[11:52] <Trevinho> ok
[11:53] <didrocks> I don't really see the git blame benefits, but it seems it's not hurting anyway
[11:53] <didrocks> which is what I care about :)
[11:53] <didrocks> I don't think there is any impact on "Create a maintenance branch" section
[11:53] <Trevinho> nope
[11:54] <didrocks> so yeah, just copy "Convert a package to git for the first time from Debian"
[11:54] <Trevinho> I mean what I've done puts itself into the wiki properly, it just imports stuff with metadata too
[11:54] <didrocks> then, I'll make a diff to ahve a second look :)
[11:54] <Trevinho> i'll add only a sub-section to that, ok? Like if there's an ubuntu bzr branch....
[11:55] <didrocks> Trevinho: ah, with the extra steps, why not… well, add that as a step like "4" and "4.1", "4.2"…
[11:55] <didrocks> but the most important is that you validate the changes, scratch your branch, and refollow the whole guide completely
[11:56] <didrocks> Trevinho: bonus point if converting only requires git-bzr and not bzr itself :p
[11:57] <Trevinho> ok, I was thinking on 4a, b,c but sure :)
[11:58] <didrocks> Trevinho: on that one, I have no opinion :p
[11:58] <Trevinho> didrocks: well, I've done with bzr itself as git-bzr isn't in the repo, right?
[11:58] <didrocks> oh, it's not?
[11:58] <Trevinho> apt search git-bzr has nothing
[11:58] <didrocks> one sec
[11:59] <didrocks> Trevinho: git-remote-bzr
[11:59] <Trevinho> that's why I went with normal bzr, but we don't need much more there
[11:59] <didrocks> this is what you need :)
[12:00] <didrocks> then, it's simply git clone bzr::lp:~
[12:00] <Trevinho> mh, I see, let me check how that behaves
[12:00] <didrocks> ;)
[12:00] <Trevinho> k, ok.... could be better
[12:00] <didrocks> unsure it supports the operation you want
[12:00] <didrocks> but supposively you can add a temporary remote you want to remove?
[12:00] <Trevinho> mh, I can check, I can't just use that as a different remote I guess
[12:01] <Trevinho> as it needs to be a differen tree
[12:01] <Trevinho> but I can play with that again
[12:01] <didrocks> Trevinho: yeah, just in case… that will help if we automate part of it in the future
[12:02] <didrocks> Trevinho: once done, just reping me, I'll check the changes to the wiki and your new fresh branch ;)
[12:02] <Trevinho> didrocks: ok, thanks... I'll do that after lunch though
[12:02] <didrocks> sure
[12:03] <Trevinho> didrocks: yes, automating was my idea too....
[12:03] <Trevinho> although there are some manual intervention or deicision to takes (whic I would have avoided, but... humans, you know!)
[12:04] <didrocks> Trevinho: as long as you can describe them precisely in the wiki as a first step…
[12:06] <Trevinho> k
[12:06] <Trevinho> well I normlly write scripts first then i (maybe) document, but in this case I see the value :)
[12:08] <didrocks> yeah, especially restarting from scratch
[12:08] <didrocks> I quite simplified when doing it
[12:09] <seb128> Trevinho, it starts feeling like that you are spending lot of efforts/time on something that isn't important and isn't going to be used/benefit to us much ... I know you like to do things nicely, but sometime perfect is the enemy of the good, isn't that the case here? shouldn't we stop the experiment there, declare that what others had is good enough and move back to do real work?
[12:11] <Trevinho> seb128: well, it wasn't too time consuming, what took to me much was merging with debian (which is not something involving this, and that still we want to do next), I think we're done now in terms of things to do... I mean the process is defined. Need to note down ('ve already) and write in the wiki.
[12:12] <Trevinho> once done that it will live alone
[12:13] <Trevinho> and for who will do it again it will take few extra steps
[12:13] <Trevinho> but yes, I agree this can't take longer than needed
[12:14] <seb128> "can" tou mean ?
[12:15] <Trevinho> I mean, it might have now, but once it's setup nope :)
[12:18] <seb128> well, you wasted a few days fighting with vcs things, you need to redo some work still now
[12:19] <seb128> you are also using some of didrocks' time for reviewing your work/pointing out the oversights/arguing etc
[12:19] <seb128> which is fine, but meanwhile the .2 update is still not uploaded
[12:19] <seb128> it should have been a week ago and would have been if we were no arguing over git details for days
[12:19] <seb128> btw which is exactly why I didn't want that git conversion to start before the LTS :p
[12:42] <ali1234> quick question about the dpkg locking email: does this mean i can run apt on the command line while eg synaptic is running (but not doing anything)?
[12:42] <ali1234> and what does it mean for eg bootstrapping a chroot where i run "dpkg --configure -a" non-interactively from a script on the chroot?
[12:59] <Laney> ali1234: you should probably ask that in #ubuntu-devel
[12:59] <ali1234> oh right, i thought this was :)
[13:34] <Trevinho> seb128: hehe, well git conversations are always intense :).
[13:45] <Laney> we were doing OK up to now
[16:42] <willcooke> night all o/
[16:42] <Laney> TFW when you decide not to care about a corner case


[08:47] <berz3rk> hello anyone online?
[08:47] <berz3rk> can somone please remove my user page on the ubuntu wiki
[08:48] <berz3rk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Eduard%20Gotwig
[08:48] <berz3rk> its heavily outdated
[08:50] <berz3rk> willcooke: hey
[08:52] <berz3rk> willcooke: can you please help me
[12:22] <berz3rk> who ever sees this
[12:22] <berz3rk> pls remove the page ;x
[13:16] <pleia2> having a hard time matching up the usernames
[13:17] <pleia2> that IRC nick seems to have nothing to do with the user page, we should see about confirming identity if they return
[13:17] <pleia2> hm, actually, I'll drop them an email


[02:28] <ghostcartpi> Heya folks.
[02:28] <ghostcartpi> I've installed Mate on my raspberry pi 3, and am attempting to install Mudlet.
[02:28] <ghostcartpi> I'm running into a lot of roadblocks, and was hoping for suggestions.
[09:15] <ignat> Hi!)
[11:28] <medusaaaa> hi
[11:52] <psalden> hey guys, I'm using the mutiny layout but after I upgraded to 16.10, applications like mate-terminal and caja crash when I try to use the top menu. I've had the same with a clean install on another machine, and I can't really find any reports of it when googling a bit. Anyone else ran into this?
[12:55] <frail_trev> I am running ubuntu 16.04 with Mate. I am told that I should remove third party repositories. Is my combination not approved? An outline of corrective steps to be taken would be welcomed.
[13:15] <John_Cena_ALT> JOHN CENA!!!!!!!
[14:55] <alexey_> Ребятки, привет. Нужна помощь. после перезагрузки слетел русский язык. Как вернуть?
[15:14] <mason_> hello
[15:16] <ubuntumateiscool> hello
[17:33] <mikewilzn> Howdy
[20:38] <mate|59047> How do I make it so that Application icons appear on the desktop like they do on iOS devices? I've seen screenshots where this happens, but I can't seem to figure it out. I'm using Ubuntu 16.04.
[20:39] <mate|59047> On those screenshots, the Ubuntu Launcher has an icon with four squares.
[21:03] <Guest80957> is this where i can ask questions?
[21:54] <ineverexist> hi, i have mate for first time and its really faster than before (ubuntu 14.04 LTS)
[21:54] <ineverexist> on my old PC
[21:57] <ineverexist> i was really surprised, I thank all the developers of mate !!
[22:59] <jose__> Hello
[23:00] <jose__> I am a new user trying to understand Ubuntu. I actually want to configure it to edit video, anyone have some suggestion?


[06:56] <dholbach> good morning
[06:59] <bkerensa> dholbach: good morning
[06:59] <bkerensa> dholbach: so I land in Berlin on the 12th of next month... Any chance you want to have a tea or coffee?
[06:59] <bkerensa> :)
[06:59] <dholbach> hi bkerensa
[07:00] <dholbach> bkerensa, 12th Sept? yes, there's good chances I might be there :)
[07:00] <bkerensa> ;)
[07:02] <bkerensa> dholbach: cool I shall ping you when I arrive :) I will be in till the 15th
[07:02] <dholbach> excellent
[07:02] <bkerensa> working from the Mozilla Berlin Office
[07:04] <dholbach> ah, great
[07:05] <bkerensa> dholbach: do you know if the trains take credit card by chance?
[07:06] <bkerensa> I land at TXL and it says there is a train from there to my hotel
[07:08] <dholbach> bkerensa, there are ticket vending machines - I could imagine that credit card would work there - in a lot of places like restaurants, etc credit cards are not commonly used, so having some cash will be useful
[07:11] <bkerensa> ah ok
[07:11] <bkerensa> good to know
[12:42] <dholbach> dpm, I think we wanted to schedule our 1-on-1 calls for Mondays, right?
[12:42] <dholbach> dpm, I think I'm fine with everything for now, but shall we just pick a time for next monday and the following ones?
[12:43] <dpm> dholbach, sounds good. Shall we say 11:00? Would that work for you?
[12:43] <dholbach> dpm, yep, sounds good
[12:44] <dpm> dholbach, ok, invite sent
[12:45] <dholbach> thanks a bunch
[12:45] <dpm> np, thank you ;)
[12:46] <dholbach> dpm, can we get the old community team calendar deleted somehow?
[12:46] <dholbach> dpm, right now it looks like there's two "Community Team Calendar" in my list and I don't know where to save an event to :)
[12:46] <dpm> dholbach, ah, I meant to send an e-mail this morning, let me do it now
[12:47] <dholbach> awesome
[12:47] <dpm> dholbach, you can remove the one that it's not listed under "My Calendars" and says "Community Team Calendar (DO NOT USE)" :)
[12:47] <dpm> *is
[12:48] <dholbach> gotcha
[12:53] <dpm> dholbach, e-mail sent
[13:32] <dholbach> popey, maybe each of us can take on one of your meetings on Thu?
[13:33] <dholbach> not quite sure what's expected, but I assume it's going through list of open MPs and critical bugs, plus general discussion?
[13:36] <popey> yeah, you might want to do the clock one as you're working with nik90 on the packaging?
[13:39] <dholbach> popey, can do
[14:33] <balloons> pleia2, about you appearing on the weekly on-air hangout with us. Let's nail down a date. I rmemeber you saying next week or the week after worked for you right. How about August 19th?
[15:36] <dholbach> all right my friends - I'm calling it a day - see you all tomorrow! :)
[15:36] <belkinsa> See ya dholbach
[15:37] <dholbach> bye belkinsa :)
[16:58] <pleia2> balloons: that could work, what time are the hangouts at?
[16:59] <balloons> pleia2, hhmm for you on the west coast, 8 - 9 am on Tuesdays
[16:59] <mhall119> pleia2: 1500 utc
[16:59] <pleia2> I hate 8am, but can do for one day
[16:59] <pleia2> :)
[17:05] <balloons> pleia2, <3. Awesome
[17:41] <cprofitt> I might have to see this hangout
[17:42] <cprofitt> pleia2: at 8am :-)
[18:46] <pleia2> anyone know who to talk to about canonical re: updating https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/releases/streams/v1/com.ubuntu.cloud:released:hpcloud.json ?
[18:46] <pleia2> there are new images on the hpcloud side, but the signed json file has not been updated with them
[18:47] <pleia2> specifically needs 'Ubuntu Server 14.04.1 LTS (amd64 20140724) - Partner Image'
[19:03] <mhall119> pleia2: I'd say jcastro
[19:04] <mhall119> but then again, he's the guy I bug for anything cloud related
[19:04]  * pleia2 nods
[19:05] <mhall119> a.rosales would be another
[19:05] <pleia2> tsk, jcastro not online and arosales set away
[19:05] <pleia2> thanks, I'll try to catch them :)
[20:22] <bkerensa> Aww Jason Warner left Canonical :(
[20:26] <mhall119> bkerensa: yeah, but Will Cooke came back to fill his role
[20:31] <popey> \o/


[22:09] <telexicon> Can I start adding results for laptop tests on hardy?
[22:30] <crimsun> telexicon: absolutely!
[22:30] <crimsun> (thanks, BTW!)
[22:47] <telexicon> np.. i've just been looking at deploying ubuntu where I work, we have a lot of different (mostly dell) laptops.. so I wanted to start testing them for the next release


[16:24] <MTecknology> dbungert: I heard a rumor that maybe you know some things about the autoinstall stuff? I still can't figure out how to make the installer grab an autoinstall file.
[16:25] <dbungert> MTecknology: I do.  Thanks for sharing your autoinstall in progress.
[16:25] <dbungert> I'm in a meeting for the moment so my responses might be slow
[16:25] <dbungert> the two general plans are to build the autoinstall into the ISO or to serve it over cloud-init, which one sounds better for your case?
[16:26] <MTecknology> I've been at this for a couple weeks, so slow is still faster than me.
[16:27] <p3lim> MTecknology: I use kernel args with nocloud, e.g: `linux /casper/vmlinuz autoinstall ds=nocloud\;s=http://myhost/autoinstall.yaml ---`
[16:28] <p3lim> if you've packaged the autoinstall file with the ISO or have a separate disk you can get it from that instead, e.g. `s=/cdrom/mypath/autoinstall.yaml`
[16:29] <MTecknology> My original goal was to bake it into the iso, but I also need to support remote re-installation so I'm trying to use those same "nocloud" arguments. I thought that the thing needed to end in a / so that it could find the user-data and meta-data files and then read the autoinstall data from the cloud-init config file
[16:29] <p3lim> docs: https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/17.2/topics/datasources/nocloud.html
[16:29] <p3lim> I don't use separate user-/meta-data that way so can't answer that for you
[16:31] <MTecknology> That's what's shown on https://ubuntu.com/server/docs/install/autoinstall and https://canonical-subiquity.readthedocs-hosted.com/en/latest/howto/autoinstall-quickstart.html#write-your-autoinstall-configuration
[16:31] <p3lim> question: how can I validate the autoinstall/curtin match targets for storage? trying to match by 'model', which should be ID_VENDOR but it just fails to match one
[16:32]  * MTecknology goes off and tries with a full path to that specific file.
[16:32] <p3lim> debug output doesn't really help me here, so just wondering if there are any tools to validate/match that
[16:34] <MTecknology> The attempt I just tried -> kvm -no-reboot -m 2048 -drive file=image.img,format=raw,cache=none,if=virtio -kernel linux -initrd initrd.gz -append 'autoinstall ds=nocloud-net\;s=https://deb.domain.tld/ubuntu2004/autoinstall.yaml'
[16:35] <p3lim> MTecknology: don't do it on initrd, do it on linux
[16:36] <MTecknology> "on initrd"?
[16:36] <p3lim> (not too familiar with raw kvm parameters)
[16:36] <p3lim> I assume `-append` appends it to `-initrd` here?
[16:37] <MTecknology> nope, it's the appended arguments in grub
[16:37] <MTecknology> well, not "in grub", but what's handed to the kernel
[16:38] <MTecknology> I can see the arguments listed in the kernel command line, but they don't appear to have any impact on the installer.
[16:38] <p3lim> e.g. you see them in /proc/cmdline?
[16:38] <MTecknology> I also can't find any logs to suggest any web activity was attempted.
[16:38] <MTecknology> yep
[16:38] <p3lim> show us exactly what /proc/cmdline contains please
[16:40] <p3lim> mask your s= if you want :P
[16:41] <MTecknology> heh ... I don't know how to take a screenshot from this.  It's "autoinstall ds=nocloud-net;s=https://deb.corp.tld/ubuntu2004/user-data"   where "corp.tld" is a typed replacement. Everything else is char4char.
[16:42] <p3lim> I made a mistake in my paths above, I had some part of the ISO builder that did something, I'll explain it here:
[16:43] <p3lim> my /proc/cmdline contains "BOOT_IMAGE=/casper/vmlinuz autoinstall ds=nocloud;s=/cdrom/nocloud/foo ---"
[16:43] <p3lim> within /cdrom/nocloud/foo directory I have two files; meta-data and user-data
[16:43] <p3lim> user-data is the autoinstall.yaml file
[16:45] <p3lim> in your case you should point to https://deb.domain.tld/ubuntu/2004 which contains those two files
[16:45] <dbungert> ^
[16:45] <dbungert> was just about to say the same, thanks p3lim
[16:45] <MTecknology> That's what I was trying first, before you mentioned autoinstall.yaml ;)
[16:45] <p3lim> also keep in mind that https _might_ be problematic depending on how you've signed the certificate on that domain
[16:46] <MTecknology> > I thought that the thing needed to end in a / so that it could find the user-data and meta-data files and then read the autoinstall data from the cloud-init config file
[16:47] <dbungert> https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/reference/datasources/nocloud.html#nocloud - the examples are showing a trailing slash, I don't know if it matters
[16:47] <p3lim> you might need to end your url/path with "/" indeed, I know I've done that before
[16:47] <MTecknology> There's a spot in documentation somewhere that claims the trailing slash must be there
[16:47] <p3lim> use it to be safe :)
[16:48] <MTecknology> I have been
[16:48] <p3lim> dbungert: do you know how I can verify/test the "match" keypair from curtin without running the entire autoinstall process? can't seem to get a match against "model" (which is supposed to be ID_VENDOR in udev according to the docs)
[16:49] <MTecknology> I guess ... I'm sharing the arguments that are absolutely definitely being passed to the installer, so the real question is why the installer seems to do nothing with that.
[16:49] <MTecknology> I'm not sure if it's trying and not being logged, but netstat suggests it's not being tried at all
[16:49] <MTecknology> tcpdump*
[16:50] <p3lim> are you actually using this for 20.04?
[16:50] <MTecknology> yep ... I get to target 18.04, 20.04, 22.04, and there's soon to be a fourth in that list.
[16:51] <dbungert> p3lim: I'm not sure we have a great way to verify match directives, that sounds like a nice feature improvement.  I'm jotting that down as a feature request.
[16:51] <p3lim> dbungert: you're on the curtin team?
[16:52] <dbungert> I own the Subiquity stack, so all of Subiquity/Curtin/Probert, but I'm not the sole decision maker
[16:52] <p3lim> ah cool
[16:52] <p3lim> please jot down a feature request for configuring btrfs subvolumes too then :D
[16:53] <p3lim> anyways, I cannot for the life of me tell what curtin is actually trying to match against, because it just fails whenever I supply the `match.model: foo` field
[16:53] <dbungert> MTecknology: if you're testing newer ISOs, there will be a log line in /var/log/installer/subiquity-server-debug.log load_autoinstall_config
[16:54] <dbungert> if subiquity sees the autoinstall, that will have useful information, or maybe just a 'None' if it didn't make it that far
[16:54] <p3lim> to be specific, I'm using Dell EMC hardware and ID_VENDOR is "DELL     " and I've set `match.model: DELL*` (tried without the glob too) and it doesn't work
[16:54] <MTecknology> there's no /var/log/installer on this one
[16:54] <dbungert> p3lim: I actually have a branch started but it's not a committed feature at this point
[16:54] <p3lim> cool :)
[16:55] <dbungert> p3lim: (with respect to btrfs and subvolumes)
[16:55] <p3lim> if there are steps I can take to test the btrfs branch let me know, would gladly help once it's kinda-ready for that
[16:55]  * MTecknology screams ... this is a horrible mess that is driving me absolutely bonkers. How the frick is it so dang difficult just to feed a configuration file to an installer?!!
[16:56] <p3lim> MTecknology: try using http instead of https
[16:56] <p3lim> certificates can pose a problem here
[16:56] <p3lim> and ensure it can actually resolve the address (or just use IP)
[16:56] <MTecknology> It's not making a web request ... cart in front of the horse
[16:56] <p3lim> can you wget/curl the file from the installation image?
[16:57] <MTecknology> yep, I *just* tried that, actually.
[16:57] <p3lim> 🤷
[16:57] <dbungert> MTecknology: ok, so do you have /var/log/cloud-init.log ?  That should have information on the attempt to process the nocloud-net datasource
[16:59] <MTecknology> heh.. there's also no /var/log/cloud-init.log.  In fact, the only thing at all in /var/log is syslog
[17:02] <dbungert> that one is beyond me, something very wrong is going on in the ephemeral install environment
[17:02] <dbungert> MTecknology: what install ISO are you looking at?
[17:03] <MTecknology> I'm using the ubuntu-server-20.04 iso to try to install a desktop of the same version
[17:03] <dbungert> MTecknology: which one?  20.04.6?
[17:04] <MTecknology> yep, ubuntu-20.04.6-live-server-amd64.iso / sho256: b8f31413336b9393ad5d8ef0282717b2ab19f007df2e9ed5196c13d8f9153c8b
[17:04] <MTecknology> sha*
[17:06] <p3lim> super weird
[17:07] <p3lim> I just tested that exact same image in libvirt just now, although using localpath, worked just fine
[17:09] <p3lim> dbungert: has there been any thought of simplifying the build tooling for ISOs? I currently have 300+ lines mess of a bash script around xorriso, and I feel like it could break at any second :(
[17:09] <p3lim> feel free to finish helping MT before answering that
[17:09] <MTecknology> lol ... I think canonical is trying to abstract the abstraction as much as abstractly possible
[17:12] <MTecknology> I get the impression any attempts to help me have been exhausted without having control of my keyboard. I'm back to the mercy of documentation ... and soon to be comments.
[17:13] <p3lim> I still think it's your cmdline being incorrect :/
[17:13] <p3lim> considering the info provided
[17:14] <p3lim> have you tried booting the ISO and manually typing in the cmdline in interactive grub?
[17:14] <MTecknology> I assumed the backslash was specifically for grub escaping, so by the time the system is booting, the "\;" will be escaped to a ;
[17:14] <MTecknology> If it is truly supposed to remain a \; into cmdline, then I have only accomplished this once.
[17:14] <p3lim> it is, see the above message from me where I dumped my /proc/cmdline
[17:14] <p3lim> it's supposed to be just ";" between ds=nocloud and s=
[17:15] <dbungert> MTecknology: where did the kernel and initrd come from?  It's best to match them to the one from the iso, and can be found at casper/{vmlinuz,initrd}
[17:15] <MTecknology> dbungert: I grabbed them from the iso, per some other instructions that I linked to but can't find again
[17:16] <dbungert> ok.  I think at this point you need to understand why the install environment seems to not be coming up normally.  journalctl may have errors.
[17:19] <dbungert> p3lim: ubuntu-image has that as a goal, but it's not supporting ISO creation yet
[17:20] <p3lim> so the official images is also built using a messy bash script? :D
[17:27] <dbungert> you may or may not be interested in https://pad.lv/c/livecd-rootfs, p3lim
[17:28] <dbungert> but I think you already know the answer
[17:28]  * MTecknology is curious what's behind that link
[17:30] <p3lim> I just repackage the ISO with the nocloud files
[17:30] <p3lim> can't host anything in our prov environment
[17:32] <dbungert> p3lim: don't worry about it if you have a working solution, I'm just pointing to some of the build software in question
[17:32] <p3lim> it's working now, might not work tomorrow :D
[17:32] <p3lim> that's why I'm asking :)
[17:33] <p3lim> once it breaks I'll just see if either ubuntu-image has been improved, or look at the actual tooling ya'll use
[17:34] <MTecknology> p3lim: If you can tolerate static images, live-build is pretty nifty
[17:35] <dbungert> MTecknology: I need to be afk, you're welcome to ping or leave comments here and I'll check later
[17:40] <MTecknology> dbungert: Thanks; It occurred to me that I'm probably trying to rely too heavily on inaccurate and missing documentation, and it appears to not exist because it's always changing
[17:41] <p3lim> no wonder I can't get anything to work
[17:42] <p3lim> the docs are incorrect
[17:43] <p3lim> in the docs, disk selection extensions says model=ID_VENDOR, but it's actually ID_MODEL
[17:43] <p3lim> https://github.com/canonical/subiquity/blob/server/jammy/subiquity/models/filesystem.py#L999-L1001
[17:44] <p3lim> vendor=ID_VENDOR isn't even documented
[17:46] <MTecknology> Did I just ... are rotational and ssd the only options? what about tape? :P
[17:46] <MTecknology> s/Did I just .../the answer was no and I was going to delete it
[17:50] <MTecknology> ya know ... I /do/ have ipxe readily available. I was using this earlier and it provided absolute proof of network connectivity, since that's where the two payloads came from. It just means I also have to go back inside because I don't want to make a network cable long enough for me to play with that outisde. :/
[17:51] <MTecknology> #ITproblems :P
[17:54] <MTecknology> does ubuntu not have build-essential?
[17:56] <MTecknology> oooooh, lol ... there's no sources.list present. That must be one of the final setup things offloaded to cloud-init on the first boot.
[17:57] <MTecknology> dbungert: Is there any chance you can make this part easy for me and tell me what things cloud-init is actually responsible for on the first startup? So far it seems to be sources.list, one of the lists of package installs, and the first user
[18:09] <dbungert> p3lim: new subiquity stable snaps are "backported" to newer ISO builds, so that jammy branch is relevant for 22.04.0 ISOs but https://github.com/canonical/subiquity/blob/ubuntu/mantic/subiquity/models/filesystem.py#L1533 would be relevant instead for 22.04.4
[18:12] <p3lim> good to know, but docs are incorrect regardless
[18:12] <p3lim> I've reported the docs issue on launchpad
[18:20] <dbungert> MTecknology: user creation does happen at first boot of the target system.  the `packages` directive of autoinstall is the same.  /etc/apt/sources.list really should be present.  It might be interesting to add `while [ ! -f /run/finish ] ; do sleep 1 ; done` to autoinstall.late-commands, which will halt the install just before reboot to the target system and let you poke around to see before
[18:20] <dbungert> first-boot stuff runs.
[18:22] <MTecknology> Can I provide that (autoinstall.late-commands) as a boot argument?
[18:23] <dbungert> no, unfortunately
[18:24] <MTecknology> oh ... this isn't doing an automatic reboot. I haven't figured out the autoinstall, but I also need a mental break from it so I'm moving on to doing a manual install that does the same steps.
[18:24] <MTecknology> so "late-commands" is just what I type after it says updates are done, and early-commands is before giving the installer any input.
[18:26] <dbungert> right, late-commands are at install time but before first boot, one of the last steps.  early-commands are before anything has really started.
[18:30] <MTecknology> Oh! Is there any way to get input from the user? I'd like to prompt for a password and dump that to a text file for another late-command to pick up ... or is it possible to let the script in the late-command directly request the password?  (the command invoked is gpg - https://github.com/MTecknology/teckhost/blob/master/bootstrap#L225-L226)
[18:31] <MTecknology> for debian, I use https://github.com/MTecknology/teckhost/blob/master/iso/debconf_early
[18:42] <dbungert> MTecknology: for prompting for supported things like the first user password or the LUKS passphrase, that can be done, but for arbitrary inputs like your gpg case I have no answer.
[18:43] <MTecknology> oh ...
[18:44] <MTecknology> I guess that's something that would have to be offloaded to firstboot and written to interact with the boot process, similar to cryptsetup
[18:45] <MTecknology> I don't actually have any "firstboot" in my personal deployment. As soon as the installer shuts down at the end, it's completely configured and ready to ship (usually to family). I can even walk family members through doing a remote installation with any hardware they pick up at some cheap box store
[18:56] <MTecknology> dbungert: Oh .. how can I use "curtin" from another tty? I assumed that it would behave similar to in-target, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
[18:57] <MTecknology> I guess that's confusing since there's "curtin in-target" vs. "in-target" .. I was using the latter
[18:59] <dbungert> on recent ISOs you can get to curtin with `subiquity.curtin`, so for example you can do `subiquity.curtin in-target -i -t /target -- /bin/bash` to get a live shell chrooted in, in exactly the same mount setup
[19:06] <MTecknology> I saw lots of warnings against using different releases for different installs. Does that mean I'm stuck without for this?
[19:08] <MTecknology> It's mostly the removal of (I think) sg3-utils that causes a problem when run inside of chroot at the end of the install, because it needs /dev to be remounted.
[19:13] <MTecknology> lol ... apparently "subiquity-shell" is not what I thought it was
[19:13] <MTecknology> that seems to be the user interface bit?
[19:24] <dbungert> MTecknology: you can refresh the snap to the latest version if you want newer features.  The subiquity snap does not refresh itself by default, or you can say `refresh-installer: { update: true }` if you do want that.
[19:25] <dbungert> and yes subiquity-shell is internals stuff, I doubt it's very helpful when directly invoked
[19:25] <MTecknology> I had the impression that updating the snap was only an option for newer releases
[19:25] <MTecknology> like, update the snap, and get updated ubuntu
[19:35] <dbungert> they are separate items - if you use a 22.04.x iso you are getting Ubuntu 22.04.  Refreshing the snap helps if you want to get newer features or bugfixes but it doesn't change the OS version being installed.
[19:36] <MTecknology> gotcha, thanks for clarifying
[19:48] <MTecknology> "Also, please note that software in universe WILL NOT receive any review or updates from the Ubuntu security team."  ... but ... isn't that enabled by default?
[19:56] <MTecknology> dbungert: Which is actually canonical; security.ubuntu.com or archive.ubuntu.com foo-security?
[19:58] <dbungert> archive.ubuntu.com can be a different mirror, security updates hit security.ubuntu.com first.  This has more details:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/FAQ#What_repositories_and_pockets_should_I_use_to_make_sure_my_systems_are_up_to_date.3F
[19:58] <MTecknology> thanks
[21:26] <MTecknology> dbungert: oh ... I'm finally getting some logs. Now it seems to be failing because vendor-data is missing. Is that a required-empty file?
[21:28] <MTecknology> https://dpaste.com/F7KUQ44MZ
[21:29] <dbungert> AIUI vendor-data is optional, I see that also in successful cases.
[21:32] <MTecknology> That's the only thing standing out to me right now. It seems like cloud-init is finally trying to grab the "cloud-config" files, but it still seems like there's no impact to the installation
[21:33] <MTecknology> oooh ... 2024-03-11 21:21:32,837 - util.py[WARNING]: Failed loading yaml blob. Invalid format at line 33 column 49: "mapping values are not allowed here
[21:34] <MTecknology> - printf "network:\n  version: 2\n  renderer: NetworkManager" >/target/etc/netplan/nm.yaml
[21:34] <MTecknology> that should be wrapped entirely in quotes
[21:38] <MTecknology> oooh next fun challenge
[21:40] <MTecknology> I guess "install to largest disk" is the best strategy here
[23:40] <minimal> note the WARNING about "netplan apply" failing, that doesn't look good