[12:03] <Monika|K> oh, many beginners do use IRC
[12:03] <ditsch> really? i missed that :(
[12:03] <Monika|K> who are all these people asking beginners' questions in #ubuntu otherwise ;-)
[12:03] <SigmaX> I stand corrected.
[12:03] <zorglu_> estimation of 9milliions ubuntu installed, 1000user in #ubuntu
[12:04] <SigmaX> I'm just thinking of 98% of my Windows-using friends, stuffing them into the "just-switched-to-Ubuntu" box.
[12:04] <Monika|K> they are more likely to use forums, though, I'd agree
[12:04] <zorglu_> just to give an idea of irc representativity :)
[12:04] <robotangel> yep, this was a very informative hour :)
[12:04] <jadhog> lol
[12:04] <Monika|K> before I switched to Ubuntu, 98% of the people whom I knew on IRC used Windows
[12:05] <Monika|K> so there is no reason recently switched people would not be using IRC
[12:05] <SigmaX> MonikalK: I'm thinking of computer user base in general.  Technical useres of any OS will be more likely to use IRC, but not your every day joe.  But I digress OT...
[12:05] <zorglu_> i imagine Monika|K counting all the people he know, doing stat and all :)
[12:06] <Monika|K> oh, most of the people I knew on IRC played games like me
[12:06] <Monika|K> I knew for most of them whether they used Windows or Linux
[12:06] <samgee> I have been using Linux since 2001 and my first IRC session was in the first OpenWeek last November
[12:06] <jadhog> I know what I'd love to see
[12:07] <jadhog> How to push some language into the tree
[12:07] <zorglu_> jadhog: wow how many people would be interested :)
[12:07] <Monika|K> I have also been using IRC only pretty recently, like for two years or so
[12:07] <jadhog> sadly, good point
[12:07] <Monika|K> the leader of my alliance forced me to use it ;-)
[12:07] <Monika|K> in an online game
[12:08] <zorglu_> jadhog: there is a 'weird language motu team' tho
[12:08] <jadhog> Really?
[12:08] <zorglu_> jadhog: yep :)
[12:08] <jadhog> Maybe that should be a session, zorglu_, what motu's are out there, and how to join
[12:08] <Monika|K> Weird languages? Like Klingon? ;-)
[12:09] <jadhog> Ruby
[12:09] <jadhog> Pike
[12:09] <jadhog> Eiffel, Squeak
[12:09] <jadhog> Rebol
[12:09] <zorglu_> jadhog: well this one has been done twice this week i think :)
[12:09] <jadhog> zorglu_, I see
[12:10] <samgee> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Teams/UncommonProgrammingLanguages
[12:10] <jadhog> Very nice samgee
[12:49] <doctormo> hmm
[02:41] <jrib> task0: which part is confusing?
[02:41] <task0> jrib: me here
[02:41] <task0> in what order is -rwxr-xr-x
[02:41] <jrib> task0: which part of the wiki is confusing?
[02:41] <task0> i'm not english native
[02:43] <jrib> task0: ok, you understand there are "user/owner", "group", and "others" permissions?
[02:43] <ubuntu> no
[02:43] <ubuntu> i don't understand too?
[02:44] <ubuntu> what permision is 9999
[02:44] <jrib> !permissions > ubuntu (see the private message from ubotu)
[02:44] <task0> jrib: who is other?
[02:45] <jrib> task0: anyone that isn't the owner and not in the group that owns the file
[02:45] <ubuntu> jrbib ok i will see but with two words,do you know them in your memory.
[02:45] <jrib> ubuntu: I do, and you can follow along while I explain to task0 if you want
[02:45] <ubuntu> ok
[02:45] <ubuntu> i only want to know it.
[02:45] <jrib> k
[02:46] <ubuntu> go explain.
[02:46] <jrib> relax :)
[02:46] <ubuntu> i'm relaxin
[02:46] <ubuntu> before two minute i was in Barcelona
[02:46] <task0> so the order in rwx is owner group other
[02:47] <task0> read write execture
[02:47] <jrib> task0: alright lets look at your permission as an example:  -rwxr-xr-x
[02:47] <jrib> the first space says whether or not it is a directory (it will have a 'd' there if it is a directory)
[02:47] <jrib> then there are 9 others
[02:47] <jrib> --- --- ---
[02:47] <jrib> the first set of 3 correspond to user permissions
[02:48] <jrib> the middle 3, for group
[02:48] <task0> user=me?
[02:48] <jrib> and the last 3 for others
[02:48] <ubuntu> jrib this is difficult
[02:48] <jrib> task0: whoever the owner of the file is
[02:48] <ubuntu> one question who is others???
[02:48] <task0> i can have a file not owned by me? =S
[02:49] <jrib> ubuntu: anyone not the owner or the group that owns the file
[02:49] <task0> ubuntu:  anyone that isn't the owner and not in the group that owns the file
[02:49] <jrib> task0: a file can be owned by any user on your system
[02:49] <ubuntu> like someone put the file from ftp?
[02:49] <task0> as long as i know i'm the only user, appart from root
[02:49] <jrib> task0: yes, root owns most of your system
[02:50] <task0> in what group am i?
[02:50] <jrib> task0: you are in many
[02:50] <jrib> task0: type 'groups' to list them
[02:50] <task0> task adm dialout cdrom floppy audio dip video plugdev scanner netdev lpadmin powerdev admin
[02:50] <jrib> yep
[02:51] <ubuntu> are you on laptop?
[02:51] <task0> no
[02:51] <task0> desktop
[02:51] <ubuntu> ups?
[02:52] <task0> no
[02:52] <ubuntu> ok
[02:52] <task0> why?
[02:52] <ubuntu> powerdev?
[02:52] <ubuntu> i don't have it.
[02:52] <ubuntu> scanner too?
[02:52] <jrib> ubuntu: what version of ubuntu?
[02:52] <task0> i dont know what is it
[02:52] <task0> no scanner
[02:52] <ubuntu> ubuntu feisty
[02:52] <task0> same here
[02:52] <jrib> ubuntu: did you do an upgrade or fresh install?
[02:53] <ubuntu> upgrade
[02:53] <task0> fresh here
[02:53] <jrib> ubuntu: that's probably why
[02:53] <ubuntu> ok explain man.
[02:53] <jrib> ok, lets continue with permissions
[02:53] <task0> so with chmod i change permission
[02:53] <jrib> in each group of 3, you can have r for "read", w for "write", and x for "execute"
[02:54] <jrib> so what would this mean:  -rwxr-xr-x ?
[02:54] <jrib> the first dash we ignore
[02:54] <jrib> and we have: rwx r-x r-x
[02:55] <jrib> that means rwx for the user/owner so he can read, write, and execute
[02:55] <task0> yes
[02:55] <jrib> r-x for the group so anyone in the group that owns the file can only read and execute
[02:55] <task0> read and execute to group and other
[02:55] <jrib> and others have the same
[02:55] <task0> so how do i know who owns a file?
[02:56] <jrib> task0: ls -ld file
[02:56] <jrib> the 3rd column is the owner and the 4th column is the group
[02:57] <jrib> hmm
[03:01] <ubuntu> is that was all?
[03:01] <jrib> ubuntu: no, but we've lost task0
[03:02] <ubuntu> Task0??? connection lost,where did you go,PIG calling dog,WHere are you.
[03:03] <ubuntu> I mean Dog calling PIg.
[03:08] <jrib> ubuntu: do you have any questions?
[03:08] <ubuntu> no
[03:08] <ubuntu> only to chat.
[03:08] <jrib> k
[03:08] <ubuntu> thanks that you ask
[03:08] <ubuntu> and for how days you remember the permission on linux.
[03:09] <jrib> ubuntu: you mean the numbers?
[03:09] <ubuntu> aha
[03:10] <jrib> yes?
[03:10] <ubuntu> yes the numbers
[03:11] <ubuntu> for how days you remember the permissions.
[03:11] <jrib> ubuntu: ok, so you get 3 numbers xxx .  The first number is for the owner/user, the second number is for the group, and the last one is for others
[03:11] <jrib> so lets just look at what one number means
[03:11] <jrib> ubuntu: are you familiar with octal?
[03:11] <ubuntu> yes i study ccna
[03:12] <jrib> great
[03:12] <ubuntu> ok lets see then .
[03:12] <jrib> for user you have 3 spaces --- .  The first one is for "read", the second for "write", the last for "execute"
[03:13] <ubuntu> ok i get it
[03:13] <jrib> erm I guess it's more like binary then :)
[03:13] <jrib> so if you have 7 that's 111 in binary
[03:13] <ubuntu> hex?
[03:13] <jrib> that means read, write, and execute
[03:14] <jrib> 101 would be read, no write, and execute and that's 5 in decimal
[03:14] <ubuntu> 7 hex is like something like 111
[03:14] <jrib> 7 hex is 7
[03:14] <jrib> 7 = 1*2^2 + 1*2^1 + 1*2^0
[03:14] <task0> jrib: i'm also here
[03:14] <ubuntu> hmm ok,go i will after that what was.
[03:14] <jrib> task0: welcome back
[03:15] <task0> i missed all the class :'(
[03:15] <jrib> ok let me start over, I don't think I was clear
[03:15] <task0> xchac hun
[03:15] <task0> hung
[03:15] <task0> and couldnt restarit
[03:15] <ubuntu> ok start again
[03:15] <task0> i had to restar my pc
[03:15] <ubuntu> xchac?
[03:16] <jrib> ok, we've seen that the permissions can apply to the owner/user, the group, and others and each triplet in --- --- --- represents those permissions
[03:16] <jrib> so we want to just look at one of those.  Lets say the user permissions for example
[03:16] <jrib> and we are going to see how we can represent that as a number
[03:16] <task0> yes
[03:17] <jrib> normally you see it as rwx or r-x, but it could just be 111 and 101 since you can tell that the first spot means read if it is a 1, the second spot means write, and the last spot means execute
[03:17] <jrib> does that make sense?
[03:17] <task0> no, sory
[03:17] <jrib> k
[03:17] <task0> 111 = rwx?
[03:18] <task0> ooo
[03:18] <task0> ye
[03:18] <task0> s
[03:18] <task0> now i get ir
[03:18] <jrib> k, basically you have 3 blanks --- and if the first blank corresponds to "read", the second blank "write", the last one "execute"
[03:18] <task0> it*
[03:18] <jrib> using letters just makes it easier to read
[03:18] <task0> so rwx = 111 and rw- = 110
[03:18] <jrib> exactly
[03:18] <task0> yes
[03:18] <jrib> ok
[03:18] <task0> but what about all the 666 777 =?
[03:19] <jrib> one second
[03:19] <jrib> lets stick with just the user part for now
[03:19] <jrib> lets say you have 101
[03:19] <task0> ok
[03:19] <jrib> instead of saying 101, you view that as a binary number and convert it to decimal
[03:19] <task0> i'm not good at binary
[03:19] <jrib> so 101 really means 1*2^2 + 0*2^1 + 1*2^0
[03:20] <task0> 1 multyplied by 2 elevated to 2?
[03:20] <jrib> the first spot tells you if you have a 2^2 (or 4), the second spot is if you have a 2^1 (or 2), and the last spot is if you have a 2^0 (or 1)
[03:21] <task0> what is ^
[03:21] <jrib> so it's 1*4 + 0*2 + 1*1 if you want
[03:21] <task0> ?
[03:21] <jrib> task0: exponent
[03:21] <task0> ok
[03:21] <jrib> like 2^3 means 2*2*2
[03:21] <task0> yes yes
[03:21] <jrib> ok, so for example what would 011 be?
[03:22] <jrib> 0*4 + 1*2 + 1*1 = 3
[03:22] <task0> 0*2 + 1*2 + 1*2 ?
[03:22] <jrib> haha yes
[03:22] <task0> slow typing
[03:22] <task0> sory
[03:23] <jrib> ok, so if your user has read and write permissions but no execute, you see that as 110 and just display it as 6 (1*4 + 1*2 + 0*1)
[03:23] <task0> i still dont get that
[03:23] <jrib> task0: which part?
[03:23] <task0> all the bonary thing
[03:23] <task0> bimary
[03:24] <task0> isn't 1 -- 2 -- 3
[03:24] <jrib> well you know how when you normally see a number like 587 that really means 5*10^2 + 8*10^1 + 7*10^0?
[03:24] <task0> so rwx = 7 (1+2+3)
[03:24] <jrib> 1+2+3 is 6 :/
[03:24] <task0> lol
[03:24] <task0> heh
[03:25] <jrib> it's 4, 2, 1
[03:25] <task0> read = 4
[03:25] <task0> yes
[03:25] <task0> there
[03:25] <task0> write = 2
[03:25] <task0> ex = 1
[03:25] <jrib> write, because read means a 1 in the first spot 100, and the first spot there corresponds to 2^2
[03:25] <jrib> s/write/right
[03:25] <jrib> ugh
[03:26] <task0> can't i change permission ussing the --- --- --- ?
[03:26] <jrib> yes
[03:26] <jrib> ubuntu asked about the numbers
[03:26] <ubuntu> yes i asked
[03:27] <task0> it's ok
[03:27] <ubuntu> but don't remember when?
[03:27] <jrib> ok, so to finish, if you have read and write for the user, that is 110 which is 6, and then if group and others are just read, then they are each 100 which is 4.  So you would represent that as 644
[03:27] <jrib> when you have 3 numbers like that, the first number gives you permissions for the user, the second for the group, and the last for others
[03:27] <task0> so chmod 664 file will do?
[03:28] <task0> sudo chmod
[03:28] <task0> becouse is inside system dir's
[03:28] <jrib> task0: that's not what you asked, what permissions do you want group to do?
[03:28] <jrib> task0: wait, what file are you chmodding?  chmodding system files can really mess up your system
[03:29] <jrib> ubuntu: does the number thing make sense?
[03:29] <task0> jrib: i installed enemy territory
[03:29] <task0> a game
[03:29] <task0> it isntalled on /usr/local/games/enemy-territory/et
[03:29] <jrib> task0: ah, that's ok then
[03:29] <jrib> you should still be able to run it as your user
[03:30] <task0> jrib: i want -rwxr-xr-x
[03:30] <task0> let me
[03:30] <task0> try
[03:30] <jrib> task0: wait
[03:30] <jrib> task0: so group has r-x, what number is that?
[03:30] <ubuntu> jrib up-down man,i only see that i forget the binary
[03:30] <ubuntu> i need to return to open the book in lesson 2
[03:30] <task0> 5
[03:30] <task0> ?
[03:31] <jrib> task0: right
[03:31] <task0> so 755
[03:31] <task0> :D
[03:31] <jrib> yes!
[03:31] <task0> wuiii
[03:31] <jrib> now, there is a much easier way to do this so you don't need to learn the numbers
[03:31] <task0> heh
[03:31] <task0> i need that
[03:31] <task0> :D
[03:31] <jrib> you can do stuff like:  chmod u=rwx,g=rx,o=rx file
[03:32] <task0> do i need to give all u, g and o or i can only give one?
[03:32] <jrib> you can give just one
[03:32] <task0> like chmod u=rwx
[03:32] <task0> ok
[03:32] <jrib> yep
[03:32] <task0> in time i think numbers will be faster and easyer
[03:33] <task0> thank you jrib
[03:33] <jrib> sometimes, chmod can also let you do u+r so it only adds the r permission and doesn't touch other stuff
[03:33] <jrib> with numbers you can't do that
[03:33] <jrib> task0: yw
[03:34] <task0> jrib: can i ask you another thing?
[03:34] <jrib> task0: sure
[03:34] <task0> can i check if my fstab is correct?
[03:34] <jrib> sure, you can check, I won't stop you :)
[03:34] <ubuntu> what is fstab?
[03:34] <jrib> !fstab
[03:34] <task0> lol, but how can i do that?
[03:34] <ubotu> The /etc/fstab file indicates how drive partitions are to be used or otherwise integrated into the file system. See http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html and !Partitions
[03:35] <jrib> task0: gksudo gedit /etc/fstab     you may want to make a backup if this is your first time
[03:35] <task0> o  yea that another thing... whats the difference between sudo and gksudo?
[03:36] <jrib> !gksudo
[03:36] <ubotu> If you need to run graphical applications as root, use  gksudo , as it will set up the environment more appropriately. Avoid ever using  sudo <GUI-application>
[03:36] <task0> ooo
[03:36] <task0> but sudo nano or sudo vim is ok?
[03:36] <ubuntu> and sudo -i will be rppt
[03:36] <ubuntu> i mean root
[03:36] <task0> rppt?
[03:37] <task0> sudo != root?
[03:37] <ubuntu> root unlimited access.
[03:37] <ubuntu> root access.
[03:38] <task0> jrib: http://pastebin.ca/462090
[03:38] <jrib> task0: that looks fine, is there anything wrong with your setup?
[03:39] <jrib> task0: you made your /home ext2?
[03:39] <ubuntu> hmmm
[03:39] <ubuntu> are you want to delete/create in ntfs?
[03:39] <task0> jrib: the last time i booted in the loading gui it went to text and sed something about my doing something wrong unmounting... can i check that somewhere?
[03:40] <task0> jrib: yes, in #ubuntu they told me to
[03:40] <task0> ubuntu: no
[03:40] <task0> jrib: is that wrong? can i correct it?
[03:41] <task0> hello?
[03:41] <ubuntu> adn what you need to do?
[03:41] <jrib> task0: it's not wrong, it's just default to have ext3 because of the journaling
[03:42] <task0> !journaling
[03:42] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about journaling - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[03:42] <task0> =S
[03:43] <task0> can i convert it to ext3?
[03:43] <ubuntu> gnome partition
[03:43] <jrib> you can, I don't know how offhand
[03:43] <task0> do i win/loose something with ext2?
[03:43] <task0> !ext3
[03:43] <ubotu> ext3 is the default filesystem on Ubuntu, and the most popular on Linux. You can read/write from Windows to ext3 via http://www.fs-driver.org
[03:43] <task0> !ext2
[03:43] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ext2 - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[03:44] <nalioth> task0: ext2 is not journaled.
[03:44] <nalioth> ext3 is ext2 with journaling
[03:44] <ubuntu> yo can write from windows to ext3?
[03:44] <task0> nalioth: what is journaled?
[03:44] <ubuntu> what this mean.
[03:44] <nalioth> ubuntu: you can, but i don't recommend it
[03:44] <ubuntu> nalioth i only ask.
[03:44] <nalioth> task0: journaled means it keeps checksums in case the system is incorrectly shut down
[03:45] <task0> mmm
[03:45] <task0> i think i really need that!
[03:45] <task0> can i convert it somehow?
[03:45] <nalioth> task0: ext3 is the way to go.
[03:46] <task0> nalioth: how can i convert it?
[03:46] <nalioth> i used to know.
[03:46] <task0> or i have to delete and create a new partition?
[03:46] <nalioth> i forgot  :(
[03:46] <nalioth> no, it can be converted
[03:46] <jrib> http://batleth.sapienti-sat.org/projects/FAQs/ext3-faq.html has the command
[03:46] <nalioth> gracias, jrib
[03:46] <nalioth> jrib: have you been spamming my mailing list?
[03:46] <jrib> have I?
[03:47] <task0> http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/ext2toext3.htm
[03:47] <nalioth> i got a spam from your name t'other day
[03:47] <task0> nalioth: do you speak spanish?
[03:47] <nalioth> task0: yes, it's quite easy.
[03:47] <ubuntu> now
[03:47] <jrib> nalioth: the nun list?
[03:47] <nalioth> task0: yo hable poquito espanol
[03:47] <ubuntu> lets see step-by step
[03:47] <nalioth> jrib: yes, it was pure spam, and i'm just joking with you.
[03:48] <jrib> nalioth: ah I was wondering if someone had figured out my clever password
[03:48] <task0> nalioth: jrib; can some1 of you guide me?
[03:48] <ubuntu> i have xt3
[03:48] <ubuntu> ext3
[03:48] <nalioth> no, it was another jrib
[03:48] <nalioth> task0: it's a simple one line command
[03:48] <jrib> he needs to unmount first though
[03:48] <ubuntu> hey i have too installed knoppix but it won't boot why?
[03:49] <task0> nalioth: do i have to edit my fstab?
[03:49] <ubuntu> i have windows vista,ubuntu and knoppix how can i make knoppix to boot too.
[03:49] <nalioth> task0: does your fstab have ext2 in it?
[03:50] <task0> nalioth: http://pastebin.ca/462090
[03:50] <jrib> I'm killing zombies atm
[03:51] <jrib> correction, I'm a zombie now D:
[03:51] <ubuntu> is knoppix rrun in ext3
[03:51] <task0> ='(
[03:52] <ubuntu> tsmithe`: much proxy you change/
[03:52] <task0> !umount
[03:52] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about umount - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[03:52] <nalioth> task0: depending on which drive is ext2, you may have to change that entry
[03:52] <jrib> task0: yeah, you need to edit your fstab to say ext3 instead of ext2.  I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to reboot in recovery mode, unmount whatever partition has /home, do the command to convert, edit your fstab, then reboot
[03:52] <task0> jrib: could you step guide me?
[03:53] <ubuntu> and why he don't make it in live cd
[03:53] <task0> so i cant write it down?
[03:53] <task0> in paper
[03:53] <jrib> task0: ok, 1. reboot in recovery mode (choice in the grub menu)
[03:53] <task0> old good paper
[03:53] <jrib> 2. umount /home
[03:53] <task0> sudo?
[03:54] <jrib> no
[03:54] <ubuntu> no
[03:54] <task0> ok
[03:54] <jrib> recovery mode gives you a root prompt
[03:54] <ubuntu> you are rooy
[03:54] <ubuntu> i mean root.
[03:54] <task0> yes
[03:54] <jrib> 3. tune2fs -j /dev/hda2
[03:54] <ubuntu> !tune2fs
[03:54] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about tune2fs - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[03:55] <jrib> 4. nano /etc/fstab
[03:55] <ubuntu> !nano
[03:55] <task0> do i need to install that package?
[03:55] <jrib> 5. change "ext2" to "ext3"
[03:55] <ubotu> Text Editors: gedit (GNOME), Kate (KDE), mousepad (Xfce4) | Terminal-based editors: vi/vim, emacs, and nano (user-friendly). | HTML/CSS editors: !html | Programming: !code
[03:55] <jrib> 6.  reboot
[03:55] <jrib> task0: you shouldn't need to install anything
[03:55] <task0> ok
[03:55] <jrib> task0: make sure you have e2fsprogs
[03:55] <ubuntu> ?????? only to change it to ext3?
[03:56] <task0> i have e2...
[03:56] <jrib> he may be able to do it directly on a mounted partition, but since I've never done it before, I give him the cautious way...
[03:56] <task0> ok
[03:56] <task0> brb
[03:56] <ubuntu> ok make it how he tell you
[03:56] <task0> yes
[03:57] <task0> wait for me
[03:57] <ubuntu> but then why are gnome partition,if the persons can change it with nano
[03:58] <ubuntu> now when i write knoppix nobody write
[03:58] <jrib> ubuntu: try the knoppix channel?
[03:59] <ubuntu> jrib i only want to ask
[03:59] <ubuntu> jrib i have vista,ubuntu and knoppix don't want to start.
[03:59] <ubuntu> but knoppix is linux?
[04:00] <jrib> yes, but this is an ubuntu channel :)  You'll have better luck in the knoppix channel
[04:01] <ubuntu> jrib.It is like that you go in Microsoft and tell something for LInux,then you will say i need to tell it,becouse nobody will thing that i say.
[04:01] <jrib> I don't understand
[04:02] <task0> so how do i check if i done things rigth?
[04:02] <ubuntu> jrib i see one day a microsoft that start to explain about windows 2003 server,that work well,and then someone stand up and say perdon but what are the different in windows and linux
[04:02] <jrib> oh ok
[04:03] <ubuntu> jrib: yeah it is long story.
[04:03] <jrib> task0: type 'mount'
[04:03] <task0> jrib: http://pastebin.ca/462124
[04:04] <jrib> /dev/hda2 on /home type ext3 (rw)
[04:04] <task0> why is
[04:04] <task0> but /home ies
[04:04] <task0> ext3    defaults        0       2
[04:05] <jrib> yep, you did it
[04:05] <task0>  / -> ext3    defaults,errors=remount-ro 0       1
[04:05] <task0> s,errors=remount-ro
[04:05] <task0> is that needed?
[04:06] <task0> on /home?
[04:06] <jrib> nope
[04:06] <task0> ok
[04:06] <task0> is a log created on boot?
[04:07] <task0> (gedit:5772): GnomeUI-WARNING **: While connecting to session manager:
[04:07] <task0> Authentication Rejected, reason : None of the authentication protocols specified are supported and host-based authentication failed.
[04:07] <task0> esd: Esound sound daemon already running or stale UNIX socket
[04:07] <task0> /tmp/.esd-0/socket
[04:07] <task0> This socket already exists indicating esd is already running.
[04:07] <task0> Exiting...
[04:11] <ubuntu> see ya,i'm going to see star wars galaxies.
[04:15] <task0> @[] }{~jnnn
[04:15] <task0> jrib: thankyou very much for your help and patiance
[04:15] <task0> nalioth: thanks also to you
[04:16] <task0> where are you from guys?
[04:16] <nalioth> Houston, Texas
[04:16] <task0> jrib?
[04:16] <jrib> task0: boston
[04:16] <task0> =)
[04:17] <task0> was really nice to chat with both
[04:17] <task0> and thanks for helping an ubuntu newby
[04:17] <ubuntu> i'm here
[04:17] <ubuntu> task0 search for warez
[04:17] <task0> will back in the future
[04:18] <task0> ubuntu: sory?
[04:18] <ubuntu> Spain Near Barcelona
[04:18] <task0> you are there?
[04:18] <ubuntu> task0 looking for some pass a time
[04:18] <ubuntu> yes man.
[04:18] <task0> hablas castellano?
[04:18] <ubuntu> si,pero aqui prefieren ingles hombre.
[04:19] <task0> jeje
[04:19] <ubuntu> ja
[04:19] <ubuntu> ok man send some kiss in Argentina
[04:20] <task0> =)
[04:20] <task0> bay all
[04:20] <task0> !
[04:21] <ubuntu> bye to you.
[04:22] <ubuntu> did someone use he Bastard Disassembler v0.17
[07:26] <elkbuntu> tsmithe-weechat, do you mind terribly if you /part the classroom channels until your connection settles?
[07:39] <dAndy> elkbuntu: /ignore * JOINS PARTS QUITS MODES NICKS
[07:43] <elkbuntu> dAndy, i'm an op. i took an oath to not use /ignore
[07:43] <BHSPitMonkey> ... or, in xchat, right-click on the channel and toggle parts/quits
[07:44] <BHSPitMonkey> of course, not everyone is sensible enough to use xchat... ;)
[07:44] <dAndy> elkbuntu: heh, i ignore all the noise, and use the nicklist plugin so I can see who is in the channel
[07:44] <BHSPitMonkey> but elkbuntu is!  \o/
[07:44] <dAndy> in irssi of course
[07:44] <dAndy> irssi > all
[07:44] <elkbuntu> dAndy, that's great. if i was to ignore join/parts, i'd have totally missed that botnet of 50 doing /part spam last night ;)
[07:45] <Lynoure> It's easier for one person to be away until their connection settles than for everyone to ignore parts/quits. It's not like they get much out of their choppy classroom experience to start with
[07:45] <elkbuntu> Lynoure, precisely :)
[07:45] <dAndy> elkbuntu: yeah I understand, glad I'm not an op for that reason :)
[07:46] <BHSPitMonkey> heh
[07:47] <BHSPitMonkey> /ban tsmithe-weechat "Until you get your act together!"
[07:48] <elkbuntu> BHSPitMonkey, since his connection seems to have stabilised, im not going to bother, but a /remove is better anyway
[07:50] <BHSPitMonkey> eh, I've never had to learn the ins and outs of opmanship
[07:52] <elkbuntu> well, /remove is like kick, but doesnt trigger rejoin on kick scripts ;)
[11:39] <leojay> anyone knows why "man localtime" returns "No manual entry for localtime"? how to lookup an API? ps, i'm using ubuntu 6.10, thanks.
[11:40] <Helmi> you should probably reask in #ubuntu - this is not a support channel
[11:41] <leojay> i tried, but nobody answered me :/
[11:41] <Helmi> then probably nobody knows the answer
[11:42] <leojay> i thought i could get the answer in classroom.
[11:42] <leojay> sorry for the ot.
[11:44] <harrisony> !forum
[11:44] <ubotu> The Ubuntu forums can be found at http://www.ubuntuforums.org
[11:45] <leojay> thank you.
[04:10] <Daviey> @schedule london
[04:10] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 29 Apr 15:00: Local Teams | 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 19:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[04:11] <Hobbsee> Daviey: another hour
[04:11] <ubuntu> wowoow
[04:11] <ubuntu> lesson
[04:11] <Daviey> Hobbsee, good stuff - thanks
[04:23] <popey> moo
[04:23] <ubuntu> mamammmmaaa
[04:24] <Hobbsee> ubuntu: ?
[04:24] <ubuntu> Hobbsee: yes?
[04:24] <Hobbsee> was jus twondering if your keyboard was going crazy or something
[04:24] <ubuntu> just testing the button.
[04:25] <popey> when the session starts
[04:25] <ubuntu> popey: you see,one is here.
[04:25] <Hobbsee> popey: hopefully
[04:25] <Hobbsee> popey: elkbuntu will probably stay up
[04:25] <popey> heh
[04:25] <popey> i will expect heckling then :)
[04:25] <popey> have most other people this week had this channel +m ?
[04:25] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, no i wont. i have to run a session at 6 or 7
[04:25] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: yuck
[04:26] <Hobbsee> popey: yeah - it's been +m for a lot of the sessions, that i've seen
[04:26] <ubuntu> why it is need to be ops
[04:26] <elkbuntu> i have other thngs to do tomorrow, so i cant stay up until then, unfortunately
[04:26] <ubuntu> nobody will kill someone.
[04:26] <popey> what time is it there now elkbuntu ?
[04:26] <Hobbsee> 12.26am
[04:26] <popey> ahh
[04:26] <ubuntu> where is this 12:2 am
[04:26] <elkbuntu> half midnight
[04:27] <popey> its okay, I'll talk your ears off at UDS instead ;)
[04:27] <elkbuntu> popey, somehow i believe you
[04:28] <popey> :)
[04:42] <popey> \o/ wifey has returned
[04:45] <popey> lo
[04:45] <jrib> hi
[04:46] <jrib> thinks even
[04:46] <Hobbsee> yeah, seems so
[04:46] <popey> \o/ for ignoring joins and parts :)
[05:02] <popey> Look at the time :)
[05:03] <popey> \o/
[05:03] <popey> Thanks LjL
[05:03] <popey> ok, here is the plan:-
[05:03] <popey> * Introduction
[05:03] <popey> * Brief history of screencasting
[05:03] <popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
[05:03] <popey> * Useful Links
[05:03] <popey> * How do we make screencasts?
[05:03] <popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
[05:04] <popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats (or "There are formats *other* than OGG!?")
[05:04] <popey> * How do we make them available?
[05:04] <popey> * What can people do with them?
[05:04] <popey> * What we should be doing
[05:04] <popey> And of course any questions as they come up
[05:04] <popey> * What we need / how you can help
[05:04] <popey> * Update from the last session
[05:04] <popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
[05:04] <popey> * Introduction
[05:04] <popey> Hi, my name is Alan Pope, I'm an Ubuntu user just like you. I don't work for Canonical, I'm not a system admin, or a developer in fact I can't really code at all. Oh and I have no artistic skills whatsoever.
[05:04] <popey> I do however have some experience of IT Training so making screencasts makes sense to me as a way of contributing to the community because it's something I can actually do!
[05:05] <popey> * Brief history of screencasting
[05:05] <popey> "A screencast is a digital recording of computer screen output, also known as a video screen capture, often containing audio narration." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencasting - read the first paragraph of that
[05:05] <popey> Some people learn better by being shown how to do stuff rather than by reading detailed How-Tos or man pages. Whilst this is an alien concept to many geeks who memorise URLs of How-Tos and commit entire man pages to memory, your average Joe Ubuntu User needs pretty pictures and videos.
[05:06] <popey> So for this reason I created a few screencasts.
[05:06] <popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
[05:06] <popey> About 7 years ago I was working for a company doing IT training on evil software. We had an idea over coffee one day to make some videos that people could watch online. At the time Viewlet Builder (proprietary app) was available and seemed to do the job of recording screen activity quite well.
[05:07] <popey> I registered quickones.org to host them, because we thought they would be quick videos, 5 minutes about how to perform a particular task on a computer. Unfortunately the project never really got anywhere so the domain got used for something else.
[05:07] <popey> Cut forward to 2005 when I started looking at screencasting tools on Linux. I tried some of the desktop recording tools, and some video editing software to see if I could make screencasts that would render well over the web or downloaded and played locally. Some of the tools are pretty good, I filed a few bugs, requested some features and contacted the authors of some of the applications.
[05:07] <popey> I settled on a suite of tools (more of that in a moment) which I use to do my screencasts. It was (and still is) important to me to make screencasts using completely free tools. i.e. not use windows applications such as camtasia to make the screencasts - but thats a personaly thing :)
[05:07] <popey> After making some test videos and sending them to my local LUG mailing list for evaluation I started making lists of screencasts that people might want to watch. I tried to figure out what people would want to see, common questions people ask and funky new things new users might not know about.
[05:08] <popey> A few people tested the videos and gave me some feedback about the format, style and content of the screencasts. Towards the end of 2006 I made a bunch of "feature length" screencasts. They are each about 5-10 minutes long and cover some basic concepts such as installation of Ubuntu and customising the desktop.
[05:08] <popey> Matthew East contacted me and offered some help and hosting on the documentation team server - which we are now using. We setup the screencast team on launchpad and more recently had a meeting on irc to discuss the direction and technical issues surrounding screencasting.
[05:08] <popey> It was decided that we should target the current release (Feisty) for new screencasts. We also decided to drop the default resolution from 1024x768 to 800x600 because some popular machines couldn't play them due to driver bugs, and the video files were very large with little added value at the higher resolution.
[05:09] <popey> (Note: This might actually come back to bite us, many screens in Ubuntu don't fit in 800x600 - for example System --> Preferences --> About me)
[05:09] <popey> Ok, thats the history lesson over.
[05:09] <popey> * How do we make screencasts?
[05:10] <popey> The tool set _I_ use is QEMU+KQEMU(or KVM) (virtual machine), xvidcap (screen recording), avidemux (audio recording), ffmpeg and avidemux (format conversion)
[05:10] <popey> Some people prefer other tools, I happen to have settled on these because they work for me.
[05:10] <popey> In just slightly over one sentence:-
[05:11] <popey> "I install Ubuntu in a QEMU vm which runs in an 800x600 window on my desktop (we used to use 1024x768 but this casued problems). I run xvidcap on my desktop and set it to record the QEMU window only. I do my demo in Ubuntu under QEMU and when finished I stop xvidcap. I watch the video back, recording the audio track in audacity as I go. I merge the audio and video in avidemux and upload to the web"
[05:11] <popey> It sounds a lot easier than it actually is. And in a way, it sounds a lot harder than it actually is :)
[05:11] <popey> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts for considerably more detail.
[05:11] <popey> Some people have reported that this process is complicated (recording audio separately from video), doesn't perform well (some people get low frame rates out of xvidcap), and cumbersome (running a virtual machine rather than recording the local machine direct). These are of course all valid concerns :)
[05:12] <popey> On the wiki we outlined the reasons for doing it this way. Of course other people can create screencasts in any way they want, this is just the way that works for us. So long as people can create high quality screencasts in a format that we can use, we really don't care how they are made.
[05:12] <popey> If anyone has a better (more streamlined, faster, easier) way to create screencasts _on_ _Linux_ (i.e. not using a Windows/Mac screencasting app) which results in high quality video in formats we can use, we want to hear it.
[05:12] <popey> If you have any questions about the way we make screencasts, please do ask and I'll try to answer them as best I can.
[05:13] <popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
[05:13] <popey> There are a load of screencasting apps on Linux.
[05:13] <popey> Istanbul, RecordMyDesktop, screenkast, DemoRecorder (proprietary), and of course xvidcap we would recommend.
[05:13] <popey> vnc2swf, vncrec and wink we would generally not recommend for our screencasts (they record to formats that are difficult to manipulate).
[05:13] <popey> There are good reasons I don't recommend some apps, and that's all detailed on the wiki, but by all means ask any questions and make any comments about these judgements :)
[05:14] <popey> Examples of some quality screencasts made by other people, that you might want to look at include those at http://ubuntuclips.org/, http://screencastsonline.com (Mac OSX videos) and http://showmedo.com/ .
[05:14] <popey> I am not going to give you examples of bad screencasts - you can find them on youtube and google video yourselves, and when I say "bad" that is entirely my personal opinion, feel free to argue that one with me some time :)
[05:14] <popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats?
[05:14] <popey> It's a bit beyond this session to go into the intricate details of the different formats for the screencasts. Suffice to say that in general there are at least 4 formats we support. Put simply, OGG for the Good, MOV for the Bad, and AVI for the Ugly. FLV is the 4th, (evil) flash based streaming which is done because of the popularity of the flash video format.
[05:15] <popey> Whatever you think of flash, it has a massive install base, and that's a lot of potential eyeballs for our screencasts.
[05:15] <popey> It might also make sense to convert screencasts so they can playback on small format devices such as iPod Video and mobile phones.
[05:15] <popey> Whatever happens, we _always_ intend to make our videos available in OGG/Theora/Vorbis format as a primary objective.
[05:16] <popey> We hoped this would not change, but due to the tremendous bandwidth we have consumed we may have to reconsider the way we host the files.
[05:16] <popey> Avidemux is a great GUI application for converting videos. You can load a video made in another application and save it out in some other format using a different codec and can also do neat things like resize as the file is converted. Perhaps we need an avidemux screencast? :)
[05:17] <popey> In addition ffmpeg can be used on the command line to convert between formats. We also use ffmpeg2theora to convert MPEG/AVI files to OGG/Theoa format. Other tools have been tried, and suggestions are welcome for other robust, easy to use, flexible tools.
[05:17] <popey> * How do we make them available?
[05:17] <popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ is the central repository for all the screencasts that have been made under the Screencast Team banner. This is hosted on a box provided by Canonical. We also upload them to Google video.
[05:18] <popey> These are videos actually made by the team specifically _for_ the team (and anyone else) to redistribute. We don't take other peoples ready-made videos off YouTube for example, I know http://ubuntuvideo.com do a good job of collating video content - including screencasts - in that way.
[05:18] <popey> In the past we uploaded the videos to http://archive.org/ however whilst free it's a little painful and the performance is somewhat slow. So now we host on the docteams server - big thanks to Matthew East (mdke) for helping us out there. Some of these videos are large and as such chew bandwidth when linked to.
[05:18] <popey> * What can people do with them?
[05:18] <popey> Pretty much whatever you like. I rather stupidly created the videos initially under a restrictive license. This was pointed out and now the videos are available under CC BY-SA 2.5 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/). Just to be clear:-
[05:18] <popey> You can redistribute the videos in any format and media you like.
[05:19] <popey> You do _not_ need to ask our permission to redistribute them.
[05:19] <popey> You can translate them to other languages - perhaps by overdubbing the audio track, create mashups, edit them, whatever. We really don't mind.
[05:19] <popey> Of course we also want people to make their own and contribute back! :)
[05:20] <popey> * What we need / how you can help
[05:20] <popey> Rationalisation of the screencasting pages on the wiki. Many of the screencasting pages (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts and its children) are brain dumps of what we were doing to make screencasts at the time. These pages need some love. They need simplifying. Help!
[05:21] <popey> We need a very very very simple guide to making screencasts. The problem is it's not that easy to make good quality screencasts. People have suggested a "screencast on how to make screencasts" which we have considered but it's also not exactly easy to make (technically).
[05:21] <popey> We have a list of screencasts we would like to see made:- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests
[05:21] <popey> Please add to this list, or adopt a screencast and make it yourself.
[05:21] <popey> If we can streamline the process I think we can get more people to make them. We would love to hear input on how we can make things easier.
[05:22] <popey> Voice overs/dubbing. I understand from speaking to some people that they don't like the idea of their own voice on a screencast. If that's the case, and you have a video you would like to make, then _please_ let me know. We need the videos made, we can record the audio track if that would help.
[05:22] <popey> * Update from the last session
[05:22] <popey> I was asked whether xvidcap was packaged in ubuntu. It currently isn't. Since that session I have contacted the author and we are going to work together to try to get it into the Ubuntu repository. So that's great news.
[05:22] <popey> I have got hold of the usage logs for doc.ubuntu.com and it's quite scary. The most popular (by KB transferred) videos are
[05:22] <popey> 3. Installing updates on Ubuntu - http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/Installing_Updates_on_Ubuntu
[05:23] <popey> 2. Installing Ubuntu Dual-boot - http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/Installing_Ubuntu_with_Windows_Dual-Boot
[05:23] <popey> 1.  It's quite scary.
[05:23] <popey> We have a potential issue in that the bandwidth we have consumed is way over what we expected and more than Canonical pay for on the server we host on.
[05:23] <popey> We may have to look at reducing the number of formats down. Perhaps only one downloadable version and one streamable version?
[05:23] <popey> Maybe we should have less videos online at once?
[05:24] <popey> Maybe we should provide the larger videos on DVD instead of the web?
[05:24] <popey> Other suggestions welcome!
[05:24] <popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
[05:24] <popey> Q&A Time.
[05:24] <popey> Ok, that's the end of my prepared stuff..
[05:24] <popey>  < magnetron> QUESTION: Have you been considering aggregating the videos as pod-cast, for easy deployment into Democracyplayer, iTunes and iPods?
[05:25] <popey> Yes, I had considered it. But one of the golden rules of podcasts seems to be "release on time" so people know how often to expect your programme.
[05:25] <popey> and we have had very little submissions :(
[05:25] <popey> having just had a baby in this house I have made few recently, but I should ramp up a bit now
[05:25] <popey> but what is really needed is lots of other people doing it too
[05:25] <popey> and if I can help in anyway to get people making them I will.
[05:26] <dthomasdigital> Question: You said that the pages need organized who do we contact if were willing to take this on?
[05:26] <popey> me
[05:26] <popey> :)
[05:26] <popey><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:26] <popey> or popey on irc
[05:26] <popey> QUESTION Why not include torrents links and encourage people only to use direct donwload if there are no sources for the torrent. I know that some people keep a torrent client open alle the time anyway for
[05:26] <popey>                 uploading Ubuntu iso images, so why not use that? I would support it that way !
[05:26] <popey> good point. never thought about using torrents
[05:27] <popey> one torrent per video perhaps?
[05:27] <popey> Ior one almighty big torrent?
[05:28] <popey>  < nothlit> btw, pyvnc2swf comes with an editing tool, that can convert the file to MPG--and from there any format you wanted
[05:28] <popey> i does, but I found it somewhat unreliable when I used it, things may of course have changed since then
[05:29] <popey> also the flv files that are created by pyvnc2swf arent fantastic quality compared to the MPEG ones from xvidcap
[05:29] <popey> but I guess for some screencasts it might be good enough
[05:29] <popey> < nicolai_> QUESTION: When do you think UbuntuStudio will be ready to be released?
[05:29] <popey> I have no idea, ask them
[05:29] <popey> no, don't do that :)
[05:30] <popey> I have been approached and had lengthy discussions with the guys at showmedo about them holding some of the content and serving up .flv files
[05:30] <popey> but flv makes me very twitchy
[05:30] <popey> especially as it does not play out of the box on ubuntu
[05:30] <popey> doesnt play at all on some other platforms
[05:30] <popey> no AMD64 version etc
[05:31] <popey> I would be interested to know why people dont create screencasts
[05:31] <popey> is it the procedure is too complicated?
[05:31] <popey> or something else? not enough power to run qemu/xvidcap?
[05:31] <popey>  < Schalken> QUESTION: how does gtk-recordMyDesktop compare to others?
[05:32] <popey> only tried it briefly and it seems to have quite a few nice features
[05:32] <popey> xvidcap seems to be the most feature rich though
[05:32] <popey> istanbul is probably the easiest to use
[05:32] <popey> recordmydesktop is probably somehwere between the two
[05:32] <popey> on usability and functionality
[05:33] <popey>  < magnetron> QUESTION: What could be done to integrate the wiki with the screencast tutorials? Would linking to a corresponding screencast from importan tutorials in the wiki be a good idea?
[05:33] <popey> Hmm. Good question. Do you think it would be wise for us to lift the content from the screencast site and put the links on the wiki?
[05:33] <popey> might be a good idea actually
[05:34] <popey> i will do that and see what it looks like, good suggestion, like it, thanks :)
[05:34] <popey>  < Schalken> COMMENT: i have had problems with Istanbul's stability
[05:34] <popey> recently?
[05:34] <popey> submit bugs, the author is very attentive. I have reported a few bugs and been in contact with the developer, he is a nice guy :)
[05:35] <popey> hmm. I haven't use istanbul for a while since I have been smitten with xvidcap :)
[05:35] <popey> one problem istanbul has is that it encodes to ogg on the fly
[05:35] <popey> which can make for intense cpu activity
[05:35] <popey> that has mostly been addressed in newer codec versions
[05:36] <popey> 6:34:37 < Schalken> COMMENT: approx 6 months ago
[05:36] <popey> 16:36:27 < Schalken> COMMENT: wouldn't that cause problems? I know I get best performance out of recordmydesktop when i set ti to do all encoding afterwardds.
[05:37] <popey> well, it streams to disk all the time, so it doesn't all buffer up in memory then spit out at the end
[05:37] <popey> it used to have a function where you could "encode later" but the author took it out
[05:37] <popey> I have reported a bug to get it put back in :)
[05:37] <popey>  < samgee> QUESTION: I guess I don't create screencasts because I suck at teaching. People don't seem to get what I'm saying, or newbies find my easy ways of doing things difficult (and the other way around).
[05:38] <popey> good point.
[05:38] <popey> I would say let me know if you want to create one and I can give some guidance
[05:38] <popey> maybe suggest things to do
[05:38] <popey> if you dont like your voice, or dont like the idea of people hearing it or whatever, I can voice over for you
[05:39] <popey> For anyone thinking of making a screencast, please let me know, I can help :)
[05:40] <popey> The key thing for me is to get more of them made
[05:40] <popey> right now on the site there are only about 8 screencasts, 7 of which I made
[05:40] <popey> we need lots more than that
[05:41] <popey> 16:40:55 < Schalken> QUESTION: any tips on getting the best audio quality out of screencasts (recording from system output, not a mic)?
[05:41] <popey> I am no expert on the audio, and I do very little post processing
[05:41] <popey> all of the ones on the site that I made were recorded through the mic port on my old hp 1GHz celeron laptop
[05:41] <popey> so not the best quality
[05:41] <popey> I do have a good mic though
[05:41] <popey> somewhat over the top in fact
[05:42] <popey> :)
[05:42] <popey> when you say system-output?
[05:42] <popey> you mean, the system sounds and the like?
[05:42] <popey> I don't record any of that - or haven't yet
[05:43] <popey> i know qemu can direct all output to a wav file though, and that works nicely
[05:43] <popey> then you have an audio file containing all the sound that was made by the virtual machine
[05:43] <popey>  < Schalken> QUESTION: what do you use to record your voice, and how do you put in the video?
[05:43] <dthomasdigital> Question: I have a nice USB mic any hints on getting it to work?
[05:44] <popey> I use a Shure SM58 connected to a mixer, which is then connected to my laptop
[05:44] <popey> I record using audacity
[05:44] <popey> sorry dthomasdigital I have never used a usb mic, I do have a usb extigy sound card which I hope to use instead of the mic port on my laptop
[05:44] <popey> that just worked out of the box with zero effort
[05:44] <popey> bought it off ebay
[05:45] <popey> the thing about doing the audio separately from the video is that you can easily re-record it
[05:45] <popey> this is why i dont record audio and video together
[05:46] <popey> now feisty is out, we need more screencasts of the stuff in it
[05:47] <dthomasdigital> I've created a document on how to change xorg.conf files is that the kind of thing your looking for?
[05:47] <popey> if it explains how to do something that someone would not know how to do, yes :)
[05:47] <dthomasdigital> gotcha
[05:48] <popey> I am trying to stay away from terminal type stuff though
[05:48] <popey> none of the screencasts I have recorded even show a terminal
[05:48] <popey> maybe later I will
[05:48] <popey> but i think it is important to have lots of screencasts that show that you dont need a terminal to work in ubuntu (mostly)
[05:49] <dthomasdigital> I see your point the terminal really freaks some people out.
[05:49] <popey> yes
[05:49] <popey> i have made one that i have not put online yet, which has a terminal in it
[05:49] <popey> but it is all about dosemu so i think thats okay :)
[05:49] <popey>  < samgee> QUESTION: Is it possible to visualize rightclicks and holding the Ctrl button instead of just saying it?
[05:49] <popey> that is a good question
[05:50] <popey> not that I am aware of
[05:50] <popey> i know one of the mac screencasting apps has something that can do that
[05:50] <popey> to focus your attention
[05:50] <popey> maybe we need a little icon of a mouse on the screen
[05:50] <popey> which highlights the buttons when you press them
[05:51] <popey> that cant be hard to write :)
[05:51] <popey> quick, someone write it :)
[05:52] <popey> the thing about terminal is that its text, so you can easily explain it with a text document
[05:52] <popey> and people can copy and paste
[05:52] <popey> you cant copy/paste a right mouse click though :)
[05:52] <popey> which is why screenshots and screencasts are popular for graphical tutorials
[05:52] <popey> 3 < Schalken> IDEA: have the screencasting app insert stylish little notifications in the video for when the demonstrator is pressing keys
[05:53] <popey> an onscreen keyboard that pops up perhaps?
[05:53] <popey> and an onscreen mouse
[05:53] <popey> hmmmmm
[05:53] <popey> i like both of these suggestions
[05:53] <popey> might have to try to grab a developer at UDS next week :)
[05:54] <popey>  < Schalken> CONTRARY: you dont want space being used up by keys that aren't being pressed. just a little picture of the button that is show while pressed would be cool
[05:54] <popey> maybe it could be brought up with a keypress of some kind
[05:54] <popey> F12 or something, then type
[05:54] <popey> hmmm
[05:54] <popey> needs thought
[05:55] <popey> < Schalken> ALSO: it has to looks damn good
[05:55] <popey> goes without saying :)
[05:55] <popey>  < magnetron> IDEA: editing the screencast manually and add an icon showing right-click etc
[05:55] <popey> 16:55:15 < Schalken> OR: a setting before starting the record "visualise key presses"
[05:55] <popey> editing is possible I guess, easier if it happened automagically though?
[05:56] <popey> i suspect the "visualise" option to be an external application
[05:56] <popey> that way it doesnt matter what screencasting app you use
[05:56] <popey>  < samgee> But you don't want to visualize every key when you're typing a bit of text
[05:56] <popey> yeah, just specific function keys or "special moves" :)
[05:57] <popey> Right-Right-Right-FIRE!
[05:57] <popey> ok. I will write a specification for both thes, on screen keyboard and on-screen mouse
[05:58] <popey> anything else screencast specific?
[05:58] <dthomasdigital> Question: popey is there a Screencasting team on Launchpad?
[05:58] <popey> 16:58:03 < nothlit> an icon would have to be pretty large for it to be legible for those viewing the screencast in flash applets
[05:58] <popey> 16:58:16 < Schalken> IDEA: tell macslow, he can make stuff look awesome and transparent
[05:58] <popey> yes nothlit
[05:58] <popey> ScottLij: exactly the right person!
[05:59] <popey> ok, good point dthomasdigital, here are some useful links :)
[05:59] <popey> * Useful links
[05:59] <popey> ** Our pages
[05:59] <popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ - Home of the screencasts made by the screencast team.
[05:59] <popey> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts - Base of the screencast team wiki pages.
[05:59] <popey> http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-screencasts - Launchpad team page.
[05:59] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam - Team pages on the wiki
[05:59] <popey> ** Other people doing good work
[05:59] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts - The method I use to make screencasts.
[05:59] <popey> http://ubuntuclips.org/ - Have generated a large number of screencasts.
[05:59] <popey> http://ubuntuvideo.com/ - Aggregate video content (not just screencasts) from YouTube/Google (so all flash based).
[05:59] <popey> http://showmedo.com/ - Free and pay-for screencasts on various topics
[06:00] <popey> right, I think we are about done.
[06:00] <popey> I want to thank all of you, it's been a very useful session for me
[06:00] <popey> lots of great ideas

[06:01] <jenda> :)
[06:01] <jenda> Hello folks :) I hope I didn't cut popey off too soon.
[06:02] <jenda> My name is Jenda Vanura and I'll be talking about the Marketing Team.
[06:02] <jenda> If it weren't for the Marketing Team, I wouldn't be here right now...
[06:03] <jenda> No, honestly, I would've come at 20:00 UTC thinking I was supposed to talk - they did a remarkable job of reminding me the time was 16:00 :)
[06:03] <jenda> nicolai_: we can see ya
[06:04] <jenda> Anyway... I'll start off by saying that I do not lead the marketing team. We have decided the MT should have no official leader on our first meeting. I'll return to the structure of the team later.
[06:05] <jenda> On the previous session, I said I was hoping for some marketing team folks to drop in later and talk a bit about their own projects, but in the end only beuno arrived, so we'll see how that turns out today.
[06:05] <jenda> At the beginning of the Open Week, jono said I'd be talking about marketing.
[06:05] <jenda> Well, don't be fooled... I know nothing about marketing.
[06:05] <jenda> I'll be talking about Ubuntu's Marketing _Team_
[06:06] <jenda> There are others much more qualified to talk about actual marketing and as I said, they might appear a little bit later on.
[06:06] <jenda> (but experience has shown they also might not :))
[06:07] <jenda> The MT's most interesting attribute, IMO, is the fact that it's a place where even the least technical of us Ubuntu lovers can find a way to contribute.
[06:08] <jenda> The MT is a loosely knit group of projects, listed on the MT's wikipage (/MarketingTeam), most of which are constantly looking for volunteers to help out.
[06:08] <jenda> You can also start new projects affiliated with the Marketing Team at any time - we will most probably help you out :)
[06:09] <jenda> Now that mentioned wikipage is a bit outdated, for which I apologize. It's the most obvious shortcoming of the MT's leaderlessness - there's no particular person responsible for that page.
[06:10] <jenda> (with the exception of our deserted wiki-man, whom I won't name here :)
[06:11] <jenda> The Marketing Team is a pure community effort and has little or no contact with Canonical's proffessional marketing, save the occasional consultation.
[06:12] <jenda> This means that the Marketing Team is no formal/legal entity and has no budget of its own.
[06:13] <jenda> With no budget - professional marketing is out of the MT's reach.
[06:13] <jenda> The MT focuses on what the community can do best: grassroots marketing.
[06:14] <jenda> Currently, what the MT is doing, what I think it should be doing and what it could be doing in the future are three largely disjunct categories.
[06:15] <jenda> Well, no, not disjunct - the latter two overlap.
[06:15] <jenda> The Marketing Team's only truly active projects are the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter (which I assume all of you read on a regular basis...)
[06:16] <jenda> and the Fridge, which maintains its existence rather separately from the MT.
[06:16] <jenda> Another active and complete project is the ubuntu counter (it's a fire and forget kind of project)
[06:16] <jenda> All three of these have one important aspect in common
[06:17] <jenda> they focus _within_ the community
[06:17] <jenda> The UWN and the Fridge are both news sources for the community - outsiders probably couldn't care less.
[06:17] <jenda> (although I believe the two aren't mutually redundant - each has its place)
[06:19] <jenda> The counter, on the other hand, is also only of interest to the Ubuntu user, who wants to see his own number as a user. Once again, Joe Windows User couldn't care less (although he'd probably be interested in a total estimate of Ubuntu users, which is currently from 5-8 million I believe).
[06:19] <jenda> So, in all honesty... are these projects _marketing_ projects?
[06:20] <jenda> I'd say no, they aren't, but they've found their place in the MT. There's nothing wrong with that.
[06:21] <jenda> This is a pattern that every MT project to date has followed - and i'll admit even the DIY project I focus on most is currently focused more on current Ubuntu users than non-users.
[06:21] <jenda> I hope to be able to get to the details of these projects towards the end of the session.
[06:21] <jenda> The pattern I described is, I believe clear: it's immensely easier to work for a target audience within the existing community than the TA without.
[06:22] <jenda> And from this I conclude - we aughtta focus on the latter of the two! :)
[06:22] <jenda> My personal opinion (and observation) is that the only _real_ marketing, as described above, can be done by LoCo teams.
[06:22] <jenda> Only the LoCos have a close enough face-to-face contact with the hopeful TA
[06:23] <jenda> Now I'm not saying the MT cannot do its work.
[06:23] <jenda> I'm saying it needs to adjust its work, taking the above into account.
[06:23] <jenda> It allows us to split marketing efforts into two basic categories
[06:24] <jenda> The first category would be local marketing activities, which can only be done by LoCos
[06:24] <jenda> The second would be marketing campaigns of a global nature.
[06:25] <jenda> Once again, my experience says the latter category is nearly an empty set. The few thing that could be found in there (web ads and the like) are usually expensive or ineffective.
[06:25] <jenda> Therefore I'll focus on the first category.
[06:26] <jenda> (On second though, things like video ads and the like might belong to the second category, and would be of interest to the MT... lemme get back to that later)
[06:27] <jenda> The first category would include everything from press releases, media contact, install fests, conferences, expos, face-to-face advocacy, etc.
[06:28] <jenda> All these things cannot be done by the Marketing Team. The LoCos are much better suited to perform them.
[06:28] <jenda> So what can the MT do?
[06:28] <jenda> That is the question ;)
[06:28] <jenda> The answer is: a lot of the work the locoteams do will have to be replicated by other locos in order to achieve the same result in their area.
[06:28] <jenda> This means, a lot of effort can be saved by them either sharing their work, or someone (hint: MT) to predict their needs and cater to them, centrally.
[06:29] <jenda> My focus within the team, and my vision for the entire team is just that - it should provide resources for the LoCo teams to use.
[06:30] <jenda> (it might be interesting to notice how this role of connecting the LoCos' efforts is close to the role of communication the MT fulfills currently with the UWN and the Fridge)
[06:30] <jenda> Now I think that's about all I have to say for the MT's role. I'll move on to its structure (that'll be quick ;))
[06:31] <jenda> The MT is quite simply composed of individual projects, the sub-teams of which overlap.
[06:31] <ubuntu> now
[06:31] <jenda> There is rarely a need to decide for the entire team, and when there is, it is decided by consensus or simply acquiesced.
[06:31] <ubuntu> why when i record recordmydesktop the fps is slow
[06:32] <jenda> ubuntu: this is not a support channel
[06:32] <jenda> :)
[06:32] <jenda> Most notably, the decisions we make for the entire team are times of meetings.
[06:32] <jenda> Usually, on of the MT members would write them out, and unless there's a complaint from someone who really has something to say at the meeting, it usually stays at that.
[06:33] <jenda> I'll now move on to the individual projects.
[06:33] <jenda> yay, we have 27 minutes left, we might have enough time for them, even :)
[06:34] <jenda> I can't see anyone from the UWN
[06:34] <jenda> Well, I'll just say a few quick words myself, then
[06:35] <jenda> The Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter is a weekly document sent out by email, published on the wiki and ubuntuforums.org.
[06:35] <jenda> It contains all sorts of info on what happens throughout the community.
[06:36] <jenda> If you still haven't read it, be sure to check out wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
[06:36] <jenda> The UWN is also _created_ on the wiki.
[06:36] <jenda> You know what that means....
[06:36] <jenda> You are not only allowed, but also encouraged and _expected_ to help out with it.
[06:37] <jenda> The UWN is short on manpower right now (well, it usually tends to be :))
[06:37] <jenda> Please do look at that wiki and join #ubuntu-marketing to help bring the news! :)
[06:38] <jenda> That would be all about the UWN...
[06:38] <jenda> Now the DIY Marketing project.
[06:38] <jenda> The DIY Marketing project is an offshoot of Spreadubuntu, and that basically because i thought SU was a chunk little too large to chew.
[06:39] <jenda> meatballhat, beuno and I have been working on it, and an outline is written at wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite
[06:39] <jenda> The goal of this site is largely what I said was the goal of the MT as a whole, which proves I'm implicitly biased towards this project :)
[06:40] <jenda> It serves to provide resources for LoCo teams, and that namely:
[06:40] <jenda> 1) Printable digital data for marketing materials // digital data for online use
[06:41] <jenda> 2) Ready made marketing materials to be shipped to LoCos and individuals for as cheap as possible
[06:42] <jenda> 3) Guidelines, howtos and tips on stuff you could do as a locoteam and individual to promote Ubuntu in your area
[06:42] <jenda> 4) Guidelines for people interested to feed the above 3 categories
[06:42] <jenda> 5) The answer to "What can I do to spread Ubuntu?"
[06:43] <jenda> And now, as promised, I'll give the word to meatballhat to say a few words about the project :)
[06:43] <meatballhat> hello all ... I'll keep it quick :)
[06:43] <meatballhat> the last thing we want is for the DIY Marketing site to be the following:
[06:44] <meatballhat> * an upload-crazy black hole
[06:44] <meatballhat> * another Ubuntu.com lookalike .... adding to the web clutter
[06:44] <meatballhat> * difficult to understand
[06:45] <meatballhat> * difficult to use
[06:45] <meatballhat> :D
[06:45] <meatballhat> for some Use Cases, lookie here --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite/DesignSpec
[06:45] <meatballhat> We have recently been blessed with the direction of troy_s, leader of the Ubuntu Artwork Team
[06:47] <meatballhat> The development version of the site has been graciously hosted by MitchM out in Colorado
[06:47] <meatballhat> it's currently in a non-working state here:  http://diy.devubuntu.com/
[06:49] <meatballhat> when all is done (hopefully in the coming weeks) the DIY Marketing site should be a uniquely-branded and recognizable product ... much like how Ubuntu users have come to know Launchpad, for instance
[06:50] <meatballhat> With the completion of the visual design spec (thanks to troy_s's direction) ...
[06:51] <meatballhat> we will work to continue this type of guidance on the DIY Site itself... (see jenda's points 4 and 5 above)
[06:51] <meatballhat> thanks, all!
[06:51] <jenda> okeydoke
[06:52] <jenda> I'll just have one more note about the shipped materials.
[06:52] <jenda> To date, several community members have invested money to produce bulk materials and ship them out to the community.
[06:53] <jenda> juliux here, for example, has created and shipped about 150 beautiful Ubuntu shirts for reasonable prices, and all that while generating a profit for Ubuntu DE to use.
[06:53] <jenda> I myself have made and shipped over 550 posters and 7500 stickers (ordering 6000 more now :)) and generated funds for the MT and my Czech LoCo to use.
[06:54] <jenda> You are all welcome to do the very same - it's a win-win
[06:55] <jenda> One note worth making is that once again items focused towards the community such as shirts, stickers and decorative posters sell much better than actual marketing material, like booklets, fliers and ad-posters - which would probably be lossy.
[06:55] <jenda> I personally intend to generate money with the lucrative items to be able to create the ones that have to be handed out with a loss later on.
[06:56] <jenda> The DIY site will also serve to instruct and encourage people to do projects like this on their own.
[06:56] <jenda> Howgh - questions!
[06:56] <jenda> :)
 QUESTION: What is the relationship of the Marketing team to Full Circle magazine, if there is one?
[06:57] <jenda> ditsch: a similar question was asked on the first session. The FCM is staying largely clear of the Marketing Team, but is very much supported by us and we hope to see more cooperation in the future.
[06:59] <jenda> I think such a magazine is a good thing to have, and will forever admire the authors if they manage to make it interesting even for people who don't use Ubuntu yet, or have just started.
[06:59] <jenda> In fact, I think I'll send them each free stickers if they do :D
[06:59] <jenda> any other questions?
[07:00] <jenda> okey doke
[07:00] <jenda> You don't ask, I don't answer :)
[07:00] <jenda> thanks for you attention, thanks to meatballhat for participation and thank to PriceChild for questions... erm... the question.
[07:01] <PriceChild> hey I think it was done well :)
[07:01] <jenda> :)
[07:02] <PriceChild> Where's mr ogra?
[07:02] <nixternal> where is ogra
[07:02] <nixternal> I just pinged him in #edubuntu
[07:35] <radmen> hi ;-]
[07:43] <janjimusptfajar> quite
[07:59] <heno> Hi all
[08:00] <heno> Do I get an introduction? :)
[08:01] <nixternal> EVERYONE PLEASE STAND UP AND GIVE A ROUND OF APPLAUSE TO THE MAGNIFICANT HENO!!!
[08:01] <heno> so this is the accessibility session. anyone here tuned in for that?
[08:01] <nixternal> ;)
[08:01] <heno> nixternal: thanks :))
[08:01] <nixternal> no problem
[08:01] <emonkey-f>
[08:02] <Belutz> hi heno :)
[08:02] <heno> Hi Belutz, stgraber
[08:02] <stgraber> hi heno
[08:02] <heno> ok, so I won't spend too much time on explaining what accessibility is, as that would get quite boring
[08:03] <heno> Instead I'll mention briefly what we have done recently and describe some of the new projects we are planning
[08:03] <heno> PriceChild: will you be posting questions from -chat?
[08:03] <PriceChild> heno, No i've got to run sorry :(
[08:04] <heno> ok, anyone want to volunteer for that?
[08:04] <stgraber> will do
[08:04] <heno> great thanks
[08:05] <heno> So first, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for background info and current specs
[08:05] <heno> for those who want more in-depth info
[08:06] <heno> Just some brief history:
[08:06] <heno> We had some access support in Hoary and Breezy, but the big advance came in Dapper when we included the new Orca screenreader in the default install and on the Live CD. With Dapper we also introduced the access menu on the first boot screen of the live CD. This allows people with various disabilities to boot in an accessible mode and install the system independently
[08:06] <heno> For Edgy we introduced a new on-screen keyboard, written by Chris Jones as a Summer of Code project. It is lighter and less complex (-> less buggy) than GOK, which is important when we want to put it in the default install.
[08:07] <heno> It's also usable on Tablet PCs, which GOK was not
[08:07] <heno> we always try to combine access features with mainstream ones where we can
[08:08] <heno> to attract more development and testing
[08:08] <heno> putting it in the default install raises the requirements for rubustness, which is always good
[08:09] <heno> For Feisty we introduced Braille support and multi-lingual speech synthesis. Ubuntu is thereby the first mainstream operating system that can be installed independently from scratch by a deafblind person, which is pretty cool IMO. Admittedly the usability of all this still needs work
[08:09] <heno> ...
[08:09] <heno> Now for the future:
[08:09] <heno> We've got some pretty cool projects coming up where we get to play with new technologies.
[08:10] <heno> I'm mentoring three Summer of Code projects that use compositing desktop features to enhance access
[08:10] <heno> Magnification - Compiz/Beryl already has a Zoom plugin, but it needs the ability to be controlled by an assistive technology app like Orca. Using Beryl will improve the magnifier dramatically. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/compiz-mag
[08:10] <heno> Colour filters - Some combinations of colours can be difficult to see for colour blind users. We'll create some configurable filters for this. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/ColorFilters
[08:11] <heno> Mouse enhancements - Some people are not able to use a normal mouse and some just find it difficult, such as older people with shaky hands. Much of this can we addressed in software. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/MouseTweaks
[08:11] <heno> Also, I'm working on some speech recognition stuff - a big and complex problem, but we are making a start https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechRecognition
[08:12] <heno> ok, that's a brief introduction of where we are and where we are going
[08:12] <heno> any question so far?
[08:13] <heno> OK, I'll ask some :) How many people here have tried the accessibility features in Ubuntu?
[08:14] <heno> Do they work as expected, do they interfere with other things at all?
[08:14] <nicolai_> hm. I tried them one time, they worked (in edgy)
[08:15] <janjimusptfajar> never
[08:15] <nicolai_> But I think where was a bug that some applications looked ugly (I'm not quite sure)
[08:15] <heno> I'd like to add a few tests of these things to the regular testing schedule
[08:16] <heno> many of the access applications look quite ugly traditionally :)
[08:16] <heno> GOK for one
[08:16] <heno> oh, anyone try Dasher, that's actually quite cool
[08:17] <heno> It's like an arcade game for inputting text :)
[08:17] <heno> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ FYI
 QUESTION: Have you, or are you planning on, marketing these features to places like senior citizen residences where the accessibility features would be either extremely useful or required?
[08:19] <heno> We have had some collaboration with organisations that specialise in access
[08:19] <heno> like http://www.abilitynet.org.uk/
[08:20] <heno> I think access could be a good selling pint for ubuntu generally
[08:20] <heno> esp. with regard to governement regulations
[08:21] <heno> we're currently looking at certification relative to some new access legislation planned in California in 2008
[08:21] <heno> I think it's important that the general user community knows that we have these features
[08:22] <heno> so that the information can get to those who might need it, be it friends or relatives
[08:22] <heno> The developing world is another important area here as well
[08:23] <heno> because special tools like screen readers are very expensive
[08:23] <heno> easily $500 US
[08:23] <heno> just to be able to use your computer
[08:24] <MikeDK> hi everybody
[08:24] <heno> But no, we've not advertised it directly. It's only recently that we really had a compelling solution
[08:25] <heno> thanks Pumpernickel, anyone else?
[08:27] <heno> OK, I'll just conclude with some points about how people can help the project
[08:27] <heno> * End user support in the forums and on mailing lists - http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=145
[08:27] <heno> * Test the access features when your testing Ubuntu and report bugs
[08:28] <stgraber> QUESTION: Do you get a lot of feedback about these features?
[08:28] <heno> * Test the synthesised voices in your native language and provide feedback https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/LanguagesAndSpeechSynthesis
[08:28] <heno> ^ this might actually be quite entertaining
[08:29] <stgraber> ^ (question from samgee)
[08:29] <heno> * Finally - code and documentation!
 QUESTION: Do you get a lot of feedback about these features?
[08:30] <heno> we have an active group of users, esp. amongst the visually impaired
[08:30] <heno> that group has been testing early releases and reporting great feedback
[08:31] <heno> actually our team overlaps quite a bit with the upstreams like Orca
[08:31] <heno> and so the feedback goes directly to them, which is great
[08:32] <heno> the other big area that needs testing and tweaking now is Firefox
[08:32] <heno> the access has not been great so far, but it's being reworked completely for FF3
[08:32] <heno> and is getting some good developer attention
[08:33] <heno> OpenOffice has improved a great deal over the past few years
[08:34] <heno> I should perhaps explain, that for access to work well we need a) a framework (AT-SPI), b) assistive tools like screenreaders and c0 the applications must do the right thing
[08:35] <heno> Gnome has the AT-SPI framework build in, so standard gnome apps generally work fine by default
[08:35] <heno> OpenOffice and Firefox are quite unique in many ways, and so need more work
[08:36] <heno> KDE also has some catching up to do ...
[08:37] <heno> I'd love to see both Gnome and KDE converge on a common framework
[08:37] <heno> but there are technical and community issues
[08:39] <heno> OK, I think that's it from me. If anyone has further questions about this, there is usually someone in #ubuntu-accessibility who can answer
[08:39] <heno> Thanks everyone!
[08:39] <stgraber> thank you
[08:40] <MikeDK> thanks
[08:40] <samgee> thanks heno
[08:41] <stgraber> < eduard> QUESTION: a few of my blind friends use pirate copies (we're in a developing country, they can't afford it) of screen readers for windows but resist  switching to ubuntu because of concerns over the learning curve for keyboard shortcuts etc. any ideas?
[08:42] <stgraber> heno: ^
[08:43] <eduard> i think heno has left :)
[08:44] <heno> eduard: I beleive the keyboard shortcuts are based on the windows ones
[08:44] <heno> sorry, I was away for a minute :)
[08:44] <heno> There is also a learning mode in orca which tells you what shortcuts are available
[08:45] <heno> and they are completely configurable
[08:45] <heno> I would suggest they try the Live CD and see how it works for them
[08:46] <heno> eduard: just boot, press F5 to get the access menu, 3 for Orca and Enter to boot
[08:47] <eduard> heno: thanks
[08:47] <heno> some more details here http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/accessibility
[08:59] <nixternal> OK, How many people are here for the "Starting a LoCo" talk?
[09:01] <nixternal> that's it?
[09:01] <nixternal> come on, the weather is beautiful here in Chicago today
[09:01] <jenda> there's one more
[09:02] <nixternal> well, due to it being fairly quiet, and I am on a very tight schedule, I think what I will do is just try to answer questions for those who are interested
[09:02] <nixternal> I think running the OpenWeek on Saturday & Sunday is not that great of an idea
[09:02] <awkorama> me.. a bit.. not really starting one, just want to know how one works
[09:02] <nixternal> OK, we can cover that a little bit
[09:03] <nixternal> anyone else have anything they really want to know about a LoCo or how to start one?
[09:03] <nixternal> awkorama: do you have a LoCo team in your area?
[09:03] <jenda> nixternal: I would like to hear about what happens if a LoCo doesn't work right.
[09:04] <jenda> nixternal: and how to go about solving it
[09:04] <nixternal> jenda: they blow up
[09:04] <nixternal> next question?
[09:04] <jenda> haha
[09:04] <nixternal> ;)
[09:04] <jenda> :)
[09:04] <nixternal> OK, first off, don't confuse an Ubuntu LoCo team as a LUG
[09:04] <nixternal> I think that is one thing a lot of people tend to do
[09:05] <nixternal> LUGs are all about geeking out and Linux and FOSS in general
[09:05] <nixternal> I would say that you should at least be a member of a LUG to get an idea of what you will be facing
[09:06] <nixternal> I know at first people didn't like the idea of a LoCo in Chicago, and would rather have seen us as members of their LUG and what not
[09:06] <nixternal> then again, Ubuntu wasn't so popular in Chicago last year either
[09:06] <nixternal> this year, wow what a change
[09:06] <nixternal> anyhow...
[09:06] <nixternal> To distinguish a LoCo from a LUG, the main thing you will be doing is ADVOCATING UBUNTU and UBUNTU ONLY!
[09:07] <nixternal> advocating isn't the only thing though
[09:07] <nixternal> but I think that is something future members of your team should know
[09:07] <nixternal> they will be doing more advocating than getting together to drink some beer and hack all day, that is more a LUG style
[09:07] <nixternal> of course there is nothing wrong if you and your LoCo want to do that, but don't make it your #1 priority
[09:08] <nixternal> So, the big tasks for any LoCo are:
[09:08] <nixternal>  * Advocating - duh, I just said that :)
[09:08] <nixternal>  * Support
[09:08] <nixternal>  * And if applicable, translation
[09:08] <nixternal> OK, so what makes this different than any other team/membership deal in the community
[09:09] <nixternal> Lo - the first part of LoCo is local. So where ever you are in the world, your goal and your job is do those 3 things, and then some, to your local area
[09:09] <nixternal> ;)
[09:10] <nixternal> OK...so from that
[09:10] <nixternal> The main reason I am supposed to be chatting today is Creating a LoCo
[09:10] <nixternal> many probably wonder why I got picked, and just to let you know, i am also wondering the same
[09:10] <nixternal> 1 year ago myself and Joey Stanford set out to create the first LoCo teams in the United States
[09:11] <nixternal> I don't know if it was luck, or it was destiny, but both of our LoCo teams blew up, in a good way
[09:11] <nixternal> Right now, Ubuntu Chicago has roughly 80 members listed on our Launchpad page, however we have hundreds in the Chicago land area alone
[09:11] <nixternal> and we are continually growing
[09:11] <nixternal> remember how I said to distinguish yourself from a LUG as a LoCo is not a LUG
[09:12] <nixternal> well now Ubuntu Chicago incorporates more LUG members throughout the area than non-LUG members
[09:12] <nixternal> so we have people with backgrounds ranging from "I just got a free CD" to "I have been hacking since 1950"
[09:13] <nixternal> and you need those people, beginners to experts. Truthfully, the beginners are your greatest aspect, as they will be able to provide info that you need in order to get people to switch
[09:13] <nixternal> I find it hard at times to try and tell people to switch because I am stuck in GNU mode, and probably always will, since that was the main reason I switched to Linux only in 1994/1995
[09:14] <nixternal> [09:14] <nixternal> that is a break because I was just rambling up there
[09:14] <nixternal> [09:14] <nixternal> OK, lets look at what you need in order to create a LoCo team
[09:14] <nixternal> #1 - INTEREST
[09:14] <nixternal> You need people from your city, state, or country that is interested in doing everything a LoCo team does
[09:15] <nixternal> Once you have the interest, and you get a solid backing, creatin the team is a breeze
[09:15] <nixternal> If you can't obtain #1, hold off on anything else
[09:15] <nixternal> Ubuntu Chicago started in the Forums in April of 2006
[09:16] <nixternal> after about 2 days and a few pages of various people saying YES lets do this, I decided to go ahead and get the ball rolling
[09:16] <nixternal> So, what did I do next?
[09:16] <nixternal> don't laugh, this is actually how easy it really is to create a LoCo team
[09:16] <nixternal> I added Ubuntu Chicago to the list at => https://wiki.kubuntu.org/LoCoTeamList
[09:17] <nixternal> then from there I created:
[09:17] <nixternal>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChicagoTeam
[09:17] <nixternal>  * #ubuntu-chicago
[09:17] <nixternal> THAT WAS IT!
[09:17] <nixternal> We were a LoCo team, however we weren't yet official
[09:17] <nixternal> OFFICIAL?
[09:18] <nixternal> Official means that the Ubuntu Community Council has recognized the work you have done in advocating and supporting Ubuntu in your area
[09:18] <nixternal> Once we became official, we setup the Mailing List and the Web Site
[09:18] <nixternal> and recently a spot on Ubuntu Forums
[09:19] <nixternal> So really, in order to create a LoCo team, you just need interest from more than yourself in your area
[09:19] <nixternal> or locality rather
[09:19] <nixternal> from there, it is as easy as I made it sound
[09:19] <nixternal> you know what the most difficult part of creating LoCo teams are?
[09:19] <nixternal> Getting a mailing list!
[09:20] <nixternal> OK, question time, I rambled enough to confuse even me :)
[09:20] <nixternal> I know jenda wants to know what to do when a LoCo team has issues.
[09:20] <nixternal> WAKE UP EVERYONE!
[09:20] <awkorama> what advocacy success do u achieved?
[09:20] <janjimusptfajar> :)
[09:21] <nixternal> hahaha
[09:21] <MikeDK> still alive:-P
[09:21] <nixternal> awkorama: we have actually had a ton of advocacy success
[09:21] <chuckf> So when starting a group, how much do you have to 'do' to get approved status?
[09:21] <nixternal> We have performed a few install fests, handed out thousands of CDs, pamphlets, and whatever else you can think of
[09:22] <jenda> nixternal: I'm here ;)
[09:22] <nixternal> chuckf: About 2 months of solid work with the LoCo team, document everything you have done, i.e., install fests, local FOSS events, sitting out front of a local shopping mall throwing CDs at people
[09:22] <nixternal> chuckf: now that isn't set in stone either
[09:22] <jrib> what kind of locations did you hand out CDs at?
[09:22] <jenda> nixternal: there have been questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[09:22] <nixternal> jrib: any location I could legally go
[09:23] <chuckf> How do you get quantities of nice looking cd's without being approved?
[09:23] <nixternal> jenda: tell them to bring them in here, I can't hit ctrl+n, to much work ;)
[09:23] <nixternal> chuckf: you go through ShipIt, but you try and order 50 CDs, then member 2 does the same and so on
[09:24] <nixternal> truthfully, I don't think it is fair for official teams to get them as easily, and not for teams starting up
[09:24] <MikeDK> agree
[09:24] <chuckf>  When another distro, ie IPCOP, works for an aspect of a project can we promote that?
[09:24] <jenda> nixternal: it's how the openweek works!
[09:24] <nixternal> I think for teams starting up they shold have the same access, it is those CDs that could help create a great foundation for the team
[09:24] <jenda> nixternal: you shouldda got a secretary ;)
[09:24] <jenda> nixternal: and no, I'm not available ;)
[09:24] <nixternal> bah
[09:25] <nixternal> chuckf: as long as your main objective is Ubuntu, throw whatever else you want to in there
[09:25] <nixternal> chuckf: for instance, I am KDE through and through, for 10 years now
[09:25] <nixternal> don't think that I go to an event and push nothing but Ubuntu
[09:26] <nixternal> Ubuntu and the partner projects (Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu) are my #1 pushers for an OS
[09:26] <nixternal> then there is KDE and so on
[09:26] <chuckf> well IPCop I don't thin is a derivitive. However for desktop/servers its all K/X/ed/Ubuntu that I push
[09:27] <nixternal> ya, another thing to, I really think the success of Ubuntu Chicago lies within all of the great people involved
[09:27] <nixternal> we all get along with each other, we hang out, have a great time
[09:27] <nixternal> and while we are doing that, we are pimping Ubuntu with a smile
[09:27] <txwikinger> nixternal: QUESTION: what should be the granuality for LoCos... i.e. one LoCo per country (or State) or should there be a finer granuality like cities?
[09:27] <nixternal> Chicago has had great success
[09:27] <nixternal> thanks txwikinger
[09:28] <nixternal> txwikinger: great question, my response to that is not the favorite, but obviously the most logical in many circumstances
[09:28] <nixternal> If you are in the US, then States
[09:28] <nixternal> country LoCo's are fine, however how can something like China, India and such have 1 LoCo
[09:28] <nixternal> impossible
[09:29] <nixternal> so I think location, location, location is big
[09:29] <jenda> nixternal: India has states too
[09:29] <nixternal> Ubuntu Chicago is city, some people think I was wrong for doing that
[09:29] <jenda> nixternal: (not sure about china)
[09:29] <nixternal> jenda: yes, and each one should have a LoCo
[09:29] <nixternal> there are some who will not agree with that
[09:29] <jenda> nixternal: and they do (except, not all do yet)
[09:29] <nixternal> people don't agree with Ubuntu Chicago because it is a City, why now Ubuntu Illinois
[09:30] <nixternal> Chicago consists of an area covering 4 states with roughly 9+ million citizens
[09:30] <nixternal> it was definitely needed
[09:30] <nixternal> I couldn't expect people from southern Illinois to run Chicago
[09:30] <nixternal> we have a couple hundred volunteers, and we all find ourselves stretched thin at times
[09:31] <nixternal> so you really have to play it by ear, if you are in or around a big city, then I feel a city LoCo is needed
[09:32] <nixternal> Ubuntu California for instance, some of you may know how huge of a state that is
[09:32] <nixternal> then you have 2 of the largest cities in the world w/in the state
[09:32] <nixternal> ready Belutz
[09:32] <nixternal> you can't expect 1 team to cover so much, impossible
 QUESTION: How can unapproved teams get resources such as Fiesty CDs when needed for projects (install fests, interested libraries, etc)
[09:32] <nixternal> play it by ear, that is your best choice
[09:33] <nixternal> chuckf: I responded up a little bit, but...What we used to do is I would try and get 50 to 100 CDs, custom order via shipit
 QUESTION: Should LoCos be putting their efforts into converting people from other distros?
[09:33] <nixternal> I would fill out the info like "there is a huge event coming, we would like to do an Ubuntu gig"
[09:33] <chuckf> nix, that was an old question pasted in
[09:33] <nixternal> now get each one of your members to do the same thing
[09:33] <nixternal> if you put 100, you will might get 50 though
[09:33] <nixternal> ya, just wanted to touch up on it
[09:34] <nixternal> samgee: No.
[09:34] <nixternal> reason...
[09:34] <nixternal> people who are already with a distro typically have their mind made up
[09:34] <nixternal> I know last year 90% of Chicago was BSD and Slackware
[09:34] <nixternal> 1% was Ubuntu
[09:34] <jenda> ...and besides, people already using linux will probably choose ubuntu on their own eventually ;)
[09:34] <nixternal> Now, I am willing to bet more than 50% is Ubuntu
[09:35] <nixternal> not because we targeted them
[09:35] <nixternal> but because they seen how our community was and how we kicked arse
 QUESTION: What are some of the amazing things LoCos have achieved?
[09:35] <nixternal> so no need to target them, they will eventually realise that their distro community stinks and want the coolness Ubuntu has :)
[09:36] <nixternal> samgee: man you have the tough questions
[09:36] <Belutz> (oops, too fast)
[09:36] <nixternal> perfect timing
[09:36] <nixternal> There has been so many achievements!
[09:36] <nixternal> amazing, I would say everyone of them. If you were able to bring 1 person over to Ubuntu, to me that is amazing.
[09:36] <nixternal> it isn't an easy feat to accomplish
[09:37] <nixternal> I think a lot of the FOSS events around the world have been manned by a LoCo team or 2, and everything we have heard was great
[09:37] <nixternal> now, if you mean amazing like "delivered a baby while encrypting their file system" well then I don't know of one of them stories ;)
[09:38] <nixternal> I think all work done by VOLUNTEERS FOR FREE, that is amazing to me
[09:38] <nixternal> to get people to see and understand our freedoms and our joys, that is amazing
[09:38] <nixternal> and we do this becuase of Ubuntu
[09:38] <purpleleave> QUESTION: How many hours did you spend per day normally when running your Chicago Ubuntu?
[09:39] <nixternal> wow
[09:39] <nixternal> purpleleave: the first month, I was spending upwards of 20 hours a week on Ubuntu Chicago
[09:39] <nixternal> but see then we didn't have the resources there are today
[09:40] <nixternal> I know I wanted to make it rock hardcore, so I actually treated it like one of my businesses
[09:40] <nixternal> you will definitely put in time if you are creating a LoCo
[09:40] <nixternal> but it is all rewarding in the end
[09:40] <nixternal> oh
[09:40] <nixternal> one more thing
[09:40] <nixternal> don't think that after you have it started the time will lessen
[09:40] <isti> hy is that the ubuntu open week chat ?
[09:40] <nixternal> I have actually gotten busier
[09:41] <nixternal> isti: yes
 QUESTION: How do you explain to your significant other that your 'Ubuntu luggy thing' is important? :)
[09:41] <isti> oh thx
[09:41] <nixternal> I have been asked to do many speaking engagements, I am up to 1 or 2 a week now
[09:41] <nixternal> chuckf: I ctrl+alt+deleted her years ago
[09:41] <nixternal> although, somehow she does understand
[09:41] <nixternal> Ubuntu is my significant other!
[09:42] <nixternal> muhahah!
[09:42] <jenda> nixternal: you're scaring me.
[09:42] <nixternal> shush
[09:42] <nixternal> ok, jenda question tiem
[09:42] <nixternal> what to do when the LoCo goes boom!
[09:43] <nixternal> first thing first, you should probably see it occurring, hopefully in enough time to interject
[09:43] <nixternal> disagreements are going to be had, not only in the Ubuntu community, but within any community where there is creativity
 QUESTION: Does Acapulco have its own LoCo and is the magic down there so strong? :)
[09:44] <nixternal> I have no clue, but when they do, make sure you invite me!
[09:45] <nixternal> Next year I will hopefully be living in Cabo San Lucas
[09:45] <nixternal> OK, back to jenda really quick
[09:45] <jenda> yay
[09:45] <nixternal> when the disagreements start and you can't find a resolution
[09:46] <nixternal> I would first take it up with Jono and if it is bigger, then you might have to take it to the Community Council
[09:46] <nixternal> jenda: is that what you were looking for?
[09:46] <jenda> maybe ;)
[09:46] <nixternal> remember we have a Community Council that can help you take care of everything civilly
[09:46] <nixternal> wow I just made that word up
[09:47] <jenda> I was just asking to see if you had something to say about it :)
[09:47] <nixternal> IRSSI needs spell checkin'
[09:47] <nixternal> jenda: thanks!
[09:47] <jenda> Our loco is working just fine ;)
[09:47] <chuckf> and spelled it right
[09:47] <jenda> hehe
[09:47] <nixternal> woohoo
[09:47] <nixternal> anymore questions?
[09:47] <nixternal> OH!!!
[09:47] <jenda> nixternal: get outta here, then ;)
[09:48] <chuckf> how do you edge a lawn with Ubuntu?
[09:48] <Belutz> :)
[09:48] <nixternal> chuckf: carefully, under 1500RPM
[09:48] <jenda> chuckf: get yourself some old breezy shipit CDs and lay them along the edge...
[09:48] <lotusleaf> nixternal: do you leave ubuntu cds in the hymnals? :)
[09:48] <BHSPitMonkey> The question is, how do you edge a lawn -without- ubuntu
[09:48] <nixternal> lotusleaf: yup
[09:48] <lotusleaf> ha ;)
[09:48] <nixternal> I will be taking about 25 with me
[09:48] <jenda> BHSPitMonkey: I love you :)
[09:48] <chuckf> Thanks Richard
[09:48] <BHSPitMonkey> you could scissor some sharp teeth into an ubuntu cd and stick it on your edgy
[09:48] <nixternal> believe it or not, my Church has helped push Ubuntu big time as well
[09:48] <BHSPitMonkey> edger*
[09:49] <BHSPitMonkey> :O
[09:49] <lotusleaf> nixternal: righteous
[09:49] <BHSPitMonkey> nixternal, have they seen Satanic Edition? :O
[09:49] <nixternal> OK, rock on! Thanks everyone, and if you have any questions, don't hesitate to message me here on IRC or email me
[09:49] <Belutz> nixternal, thanks for a refreshing session :)
[09:49] <nixternal> BHSPitMonkey: I used the SE wallpaper for a while cuz I really liked it
[09:50] <nixternal> thanks Belutz for the help!
[09:50] <Belutz> nixternal, anytime
[09:50] <janjimusptfajar> thanks nix :)
[09:51] <jenda> sorry folks ;)
[09:52] <joejaxx> how many people are here for the ubuntu studio session?
[09:52] <octoberdan> joejaxx: Some may be logging it to read it later
[09:53] <joejaxx> ok we will wait a few it is not 20:00 exactly yet
[09:53] <joejaxx> octoberdan: ok
[09:54] <tsmithe> i'm here for the session
[09:54] <joejaxx> tsmithe: :P
[09:54] <radmen> joejaxx: yeah it's 21:54 ;p
[09:54] <troy_s> tsmithe: The 'UglyAssMofosConvention' is down the hall...
[09:54] <tsmithe> joejaxx, troy_s; can i learn more about ubuntustudio?
[09:55] <Belutz> lotusleaf, thanks
[09:55] <lotusleaf> :)
[09:55] <joejaxx> can someone relay questions once we start the q+a after the introduction of the project?
[09:55] <lotusleaf> Belutz: I added some habanero juice to it
[09:55] <Belutz> janjimusptfajar, i only sleep for 4 hours yesterday
[09:55] <Belutz> s/sleep/slept
[09:56] <Belutz> joejaxx, i'll try to do it
[09:56] <joejaxx> Belutz: ok thanks
[09:56] <janjimusptfajar> Belutz: woooww... what your secret to do that?
[09:56] <Belutz> joejaxx, hopes it makes me awake
[09:57] <joejaxx> :)
[09:57] <joejaxx> ok i think it is time to start
[09:57] <Belutz> janjimusptfajar, the ubuntu spirit keeps me awake :D
[09:57] <isti> i think ubuntu is ok
[09:57] <joejaxx> Hello Everyone i am Joe Jaxx the technical lead for the Ubuntu Studio project
[09:58] <isti> linux is<PHONE_NUMBER>0 better than windows
[09:58] <joejaxx> _MMA_ who is the project lead could not make it today and asked if i could lead the session in his stead
[09:58] <joejaxx> leads*
[09:58] <joejaxx> i will give a little background about the project
[09:59] <joejaxx> Ubuntu Studio originally started as a concept from a wiki that was started
[09:59] <joejaxx> to give users how tos on setting up an audio studio environment on their ubuntu workstations
[10:00] <joejaxx> a small group of people came together with this similar concept of actually creating a ubuntu flavour geared toward multimedia creation
[10:01] <joejaxx> from what started as a chain mailing list, has created a full fledge Ubuntu "remix" geared towards giving ubuntu users
[10:01] <joejaxx> the tools they need to expand their creativity when dealing with multimedia
[10:02] <isti> what is the best game for Linux ?
[10:02] <tsmithe> isti, not in here please :)
[10:02] <isti> ok
[10:02] <isti> i am sorry
[10:02] <joejaxx> In doing this we have created three "categories" that Ubuntu Studio aims at (or types of users)
[10:03] <joejaxx> Audio, Graphical and Video
[10:03] <joejaxx> we provide different tools that benefit the user the best in each category
[10:04] <joejaxx> for example in the audio category
[10:04] <joejaxx> we provide ardour2 rosegarden jackd
[10:04] <joejaxx> we also provide a lowlatency kernel (thanks BenC :) )
[10:04] <isti> what could i ask here =)
[10:05] <Belutz> isti, ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:06] <joejaxx> We also try and work closely with upstream
[10:06] <isti> no i mean whats the tema
[10:06] <joejaxx> and this method works very well as people are happy to contribute to something that is benenficial to people
[10:07] <joejaxx> concerning their software creation
[10:07] <isti> oh good
[10:07] <joejaxx> We are also about staying close to the Ubuntu community as much as possible and giving back to it
[10:08] <isti> could you tell me what ubuntu studio is ? (sorry i do not now about that)
[10:08] <joejaxx> We are comprised of a diverse group of individuals all working towards the same purpose
[10:09] <Belutz> isti, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:09] <troy_s> ISTI -- READ THE WIKI -- Quiet during presentation.  Thank you.
[10:09] <joejaxx> our team list is located here
[10:09] <joejaxx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
[10:09] <isti> thanks
[10:09] <joejaxx> The packages that we include in each of the categories of creativity are included here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageList
[10:10] <isti> i read it comes this april
[10:11] <tsmithe> isti, this is not the place. #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:11] <tsmithe> you've been referred there many times now :)
[10:11] <isti> oh i am so sorry
[10:11] <joejaxx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio  This is our wiki page in case you want to read up some more about that project
[10:11] <isti> ok
[10:11] <joejaxx> it is currently under heavy maintenance though
[10:12] <joejaxx> So that is what the Ubuntu Studio Project is about
[10:12] <joejaxx> expanding multimedia creativity through ubuntu :)
[10:13] <dave_> I have been really excited about about ubuntustudio, could you tell me more about the development of the lowlatency rt kernel ??
[10:13] <corevette> dave_ ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:13] <Belutz> dave, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:13] <joejaxx> ok now the Q+A session
 QUESTION: What NLE video programs do u provide?
[10:14] <dave_> nobody is in ubuntu classroom chat !!
[10:15] <jussi01> dave_: read the wiki please!!
[10:15] <joejaxx> we current include kino
[10:15] <joejaxx> as a non linear editor
[10:16] <janjimusptfajar> where is ops? where i must write my question? here or in classroom-chat?
 QUESTION: What minimum requirement to run this
[10:17] <joejaxx> janjimusptfajar: the minimum requirements would be the same as ubuntu
[10:17] <joejaxx> but
[10:17] <joejaxx> when you are doing multitrack audio recording
[10:17] <joejaxx> and video rendering
[10:17] <joejaxx> those require high requirements
[10:18] <joejaxx> it really depends on what level of usage you plan with Ubuntu Studio
 QUESTION: Does Ubuntu Studio provide an easy way for the user to enable MIDI without digging through documentation? If not, will it?
[10:19] <tsmithe> lotusleaf, as i said in -chat (and i'd like to reiterate here, joejaxx ;) ): some midi features by default require a hardware synthesizer, or the installation of timidity and configuration of the daemon (/etc/default/timidity)
[10:19] <tsmithe> i'd be unsure as to why any hardware sequencers should not just work if alsa provides support
[10:20] <joejaxx> yes
 QUESTION: WHEN it will released?
[10:20] <joejaxx> janjimusptfajar: we get this question alot
[10:21] <joejaxx> the Ubuntu Studio release has been delayed and we have not set a release date yet pending this circumstances that have come up
[10:22] <joejaxx> it will be released when ready :)
[10:22] <joejaxx> it will be worth the wait
[10:22] <joejaxx> i assure you
[10:23] <joejaxx> even with the discs
[10:23] <joejaxx> at the end of the installation
[10:23] <joejaxx> you will be able to choose "your path" or the categories that you want installed
[10:23] <joejaxx> either one a combination or all (audio, graphical, video)
[10:24] <joejaxx> :)
 I have been really excited about about ubuntustudio, could you tell me more about the development of the lowlatency rt kernel ??
[10:25] <joejaxx> yes right now we have a lowlatency kernel which has an adjusted timer
[10:25] <joejaxx> and some other tweaks
[10:25] <joejaxx> (thanks again BenC )
 QUESTION: how about license?
[10:26] <joejaxx> we will also be trying to get a full RT in but that will happen after the release
[10:26] <joejaxx> we will release the discs with the lowlatency kernel
[10:26] <joejaxx> and re roll the discs with the RT one after some testing is done on it
[10:27] <joejaxx> for feisty that is :)
[10:27] <joejaxx> Gutsy will have a RT kernel
[10:28] <tsmithe> thanks BenC :P
[10:28] <joejaxx> :)
 QUESTION: how about license?
[10:29] <joejaxx> we use the Ubuntu lowlatency kernel :P
[10:29] <joejaxx> so it is licensed as Ubuntu has
[10:29] <tsmithe> everything we take from ubuntu has the same licence
[10:29] <joejaxx> yeap
[10:30] <tsmithe> each of our own packages has its own licence
[10:30] <tsmithe> and you should look into that through the normal channels
[10:30] <joejaxx> ok next question as there is quite a long queue
 QUESTION:  What repo are you trying to get your stuff into?  Universe or your own?
[10:30] <joejaxx> regarding the repository
[10:31] <joejaxx> we are trying (going back to our being involved in the ubuntu community) to get everything into universe
[10:31] <joejaxx> only thing that are essential and cannot go into universe not because of licensing but because of packaging issues will go into our repository
 QUESTION: Does the studio support restricted formats such as mp3 by default?
[10:32] <joejaxx> no we do not include anything that ubuntu does regarding restricted formats
[10:32] <tsmithe> we use the same infrastructure as ubuntu to handle codecs :)
[10:32] <joejaxx> does not*
[10:32] <joejaxx> yes
[10:32] <joejaxx> :)
 QUESTION: will Ubuntu Studio support the same architectures as the main repositories (especially amd64)?
[10:33] <tsmithe> ditsch, (so easy-codec-installation should still apply where it does in ubuntu feisty)
[10:33] <joejaxx> right now we are supporting only i386 but do not fear
[10:33] <joejaxx> we are heavy looking into amd64
[10:33] <joejaxx> heavily*
[10:33] <joejaxx> since alot of people use those as audio workstations
[10:33] <joejaxx> and video as well
 QUESTION: where is i can find the screenshot? the link in the website is not work
[10:35] <joejaxx> janjimusptfajar: i do not think we have released a full screenshot to my knowledge
[10:35] <joejaxx> i might be mistaken
[10:35] <joejaxx> fullscreen screenshot* that is
[10:35] <tsmithe> if joejaxx is, then the website is undergoing some changes, and this may have disrupted it
[10:35] <tsmithe> *minor changes
[10:35] <joejaxx> yes
 QUESTION: kino? What about cinelerra?
[10:36] <joejaxx> ok here we go :)
[10:36] <tsmithe> finally! :P
[10:36] <joejaxx> We are looking heavily into Cinelerra and into packaging it
[10:36] <joejaxx> there are a couple of problems though
[10:37] <joejaxx> the main one is ALOT of the source does not state the license
[10:37] <tsmithe> couple!!
[10:37] <joejaxx> tsmithe: :P
[10:37] <joejaxx> we need to go through the source manually
[10:37] <joejaxx> and confirm the source for each file
[10:37] <joejaxx> bah
[10:37] <joejaxx> license*
[10:37] <joejaxx> confirm the license*
[10:37] <joejaxx> this really needs to be a community effort
[10:38] <tsmithe> wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/CinelerraReview is our method, and upstream is also catching on to the importance
[10:38] <joejaxx> and we would like people to help
 QUESTION: Besides simply shipping with a few relevant media programs, what does Ubuntu Studio as a project really entail?
[10:38] <joejaxx> another issue is Sources being licensed wrongly
[10:38] <Belutz> (oops too fast)
[10:38] <joejaxx> Security updates is an issue as well
[10:39] <joejaxx> as Cinelerra uses a modified version of fmpeg
[10:39] <joejaxx> ffmpeg*
[10:39] <tsmithe> amongst other libraries
[10:39] <tsmithe> (quicktime etc etc)
[10:39] <joejaxx> and using the ubuntu ones would probably hinder some of the functionality
[10:39] <joejaxx> so we need to look more into that issue
[10:40] <tsmithe> help out!
[10:40] <joejaxx> we would really like the community to help us AND upstream with CinelerraCV
[10:40] <joejaxx> it would really make a differnece
[10:40] <joejaxx> difference*
[10:40] <tsmithe> upstream need motivation, really
[10:41] <joejaxx> yes
[10:41] <tsmithe> pressure is a good motivator :P
[10:41] <joejaxx> people helping == upstream motivation :)
[10:42] <tsmithe> i suggest if you want to help out, you come chat in #ubuntustudio, and read the spec
[10:42] <joejaxx> ok next question
 QUESTION: Besides simply shipping with a few relevant media programs, what does Ubuntu Studio as a project really entail?
[10:43] <joejaxx> besides having everything in a nice package
[10:43] <joejaxx> Ubuntu Studio is a community
[10:43] <joejaxx> a community of those who share creavitive and artistic abilities and love ubuntu at the same time
[10:44] <joejaxx> we have an irc channel which is #ubuntustudio
[10:44] <joejaxx> and we will soon have a ubuntu studio section on the ubuntu forums
[10:44] <joejaxx> we are really about ubuntu and community that is our main focus
[10:44] <joejaxx> :)
[10:44] <tsmithe> and we will be working hard to make multimedia production on ubuntu rock!
[10:44] <joejaxx> yes
[10:45] <joejaxx> most definitely
[10:45] <tsmithe> (and as ubuntu develops, we will rocket after :D)
[10:45] <joejaxx> :)
[10:45] <joejaxx> next question
 QUESTION: will there be restricted drivers for the Ubuntu Studio Kernel?
[10:45] <tsmithe> yes
 QUESTION: Are the post-install options part of ubiquity or a separate app?
[10:45] <joejaxx> ok
[10:45] <joejaxx> about that
[10:46] <joejaxx> we will only be shipping text installer cds
[10:46] <joejaxx> the reason being there is not much to "try out" if there were a livecd
[10:46] <joejaxx> as most stuff is backend
[10:46] <joejaxx> (lowlatency kernel etc)
[10:47] <tsmithe> ie it's best run from the hd, and we don't want to roll hundreds of test cds, and separate out audio/video/graphics tasks etc etc
[10:47] <joejaxx> and i do not think you could do an Audio session or video editting on a livecd  (well you could but it would be a hassle: ie mounting a partition/external hard drive)
[10:47] <joejaxx> it would not be wise to do that off a livecd that is
[10:48] <joejaxx> the options would be right at the end of the text installer
[10:48] <joejaxx> right after it installed the base
[10:48] <joejaxx> :)
[10:48] <joejaxx> next question
 QUESTION: will it be possible to install some apps from Ubuntu Studio into standard *buntu?
[10:48] <joejaxx> yes
[10:48] <joejaxx> we utilize the ubuntu repository for 96% of everything
 when are the ubuntustudio meta pkgs to be updated in the repos ??
[10:49] <tsmithe> that other 4% of all the packages is drawn from the ether
[10:49] <joejaxx> the other 4% is stuff that could not be included in universe because of freeze policies
[10:49] <joejaxx> or packaging issues
[10:49] <joejaxx> fiddler59: yes i will be submitting a bug update for them soon
 QUESTION: What about support? I know its based off of Feisty, but I tried DeMude a while back and I couldnt update without destroying a vast array of packages. Basically what I was told by DeMude support was, I had to use what DeMude came with. How will this compare to that situation?
[10:50] <joejaxx> we will be trusting in ourselves and the ubuntu studio community for support
[10:50] <joejaxx> as we cannot ourselves answer a 1000 questions
[10:51] <joejaxx> but if the ubuntu studio community helps
[10:51] <joejaxx> we can all share knowledge and answer questions
[10:51] <joejaxx> #ubuntustudio will be for support questions after release (not yet though)
[10:51] <joejaxx> and we will have the ubuntu studio section on the forums :)
[10:52] <joejaxx> we will try and answer ubuntu studio related questions according
[10:52] <joejaxx> :)
[10:52] <joejaxx> next question?
 QUESTION: What will be the default window manager?
[10:52] <joejaxx> we use Gnome
 what version of alsa you incorpore ?
[10:53] <joejaxx> 1.0.13
 QUESTION: Do you plan on having tutorials/lectures for people interested in learning how to use some of the programs you plan to include in UbuntuStudio
[10:54] <joejaxx> that has been discussed but only lightly
[10:54] <joejaxx> we will probably be discussing more about that in the future within the team
[10:54] <joejaxx> next question?
 Question: Something that is missing in most Multimedia dist is a complete alsa firmware install.....I always have to compile from source to get my Echo layla up and running....Will Ubuntustudio have a complete alsa firmware installed ??
[10:55] <tsmithe> illu45, documentation (as that is basically what that amounts to) is an awful lot of work :)
[10:55] <joejaxx> no not by default
[10:56] <joejaxx> but we are planning to have it in our repository
 QUESTION: Will you also be able to just apt-get the meta package and you're done? like you can switch from ubuntu to kubuntu by getting kubuntu-desktop?
[10:56] <joejaxx> yes
[10:56] <joejaxx> you will be able to apt-get install ubunstudio-desktop
 QUESION: any plan to package jackdmp (jack for multi-core machine) at some point?
[10:56] <joejaxx> but that will only have desktop
[10:57] <joejaxx> you will also have to choose which paths you wany
[10:57] <joejaxx> want*
[10:57] <joejaxx> and apt-get install accordingly
[10:57] <joejaxx> ie ubuntustudio-audio ubuntustudio-graphics ubuntunstudio-video etc
[10:57] <joejaxx> sletz: we have not actually discussed that before
[10:58] <joejaxx> but we can definitely look into discussing it for the gutsy release
[10:58] <joejaxx> next question we have 2 minutes left :P
 A little off subject. But do any of the included packages use vst plug ins (Windows cross-over office ish type question)?
[10:59] <joejaxx> btw if your question is not asnwered here i will be in #ubuntustudio to continue this after our time if up
[10:59] <joejaxx> bobmachine111: no they do not
 QUESTION: Can you chose more then one path?
[10:59] <joejaxx> bobmachine111: the license of the vst-sdk prevents us from distributing it
[10:59] <joejaxx> octoberdan: yes you can
 Question: Will you have Ardour rc2 or wait for Ardour2 final ??
[10:59] <joejaxx> octoberdan: you can choose any combination
[10:59] <joejaxx> fiddler59: we have Ardour rc2 in our repository now
[10:59] <joejaxx> if Aroud 2 is released between this release
[11:00] <joejaxx> and the disc reroll we will probably include it
[11:00] <joejaxx> ardour2*
[11:00] <joejaxx> alright our time if up
[11:00] <Belutz> joejaxx, care for 1 other question?
[11:00] <joejaxx> Thank you for coming by :) i will be in #ubuntustudio for anymore questions
[11:01] <joejaxx> Belutz: well i guess it is up to the next person in line
[11:02] <elkbuntu> Mmmkay. lets do this, shall we.
[11:02] <elkbuntu> Hello everyone! Welcome to the LoCo Teams introduction session.
[11:02] <elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, and I am the LoCo Team Contact for the Ubuntu Australian LoCo Team. I am also one of the project leads for the LoCo Project. I have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MelissaDraper that introduces me in more detail.
[11:03] <elkbuntu> Over the course of this session, we will be covering a number of aspects of LoCo Teams, such as:
[11:03] <elkbuntu> * What are LoCo Teams?
[11:03] <elkbuntu> * How can I find my LoCo Team?
[11:03] <elkbuntu> * What can I do if I cannot find a LoCo Team for me?
[11:03] <elkbuntu> * How can I get involved?
[11:03] <elkbuntu> * What cool things can LoCo Teams do?
[11:03] <elkbuntu> * Who leads the teams?
[11:03] <elkbuntu> * Approved teams vs New teams
[11:03] <elkbuntu> First off, "What are LoCo Teams?"
[11:03] <elkbuntu> LoCo is short for Local Community, which is fairly self explanatory. LoCo Teams are hence Local Community Teams. For example, the LoCo Team I am contact for is Ubuntu-Au, and we are based in Australia.
[11:04] <elkbuntu> The teams are run by the people, for the people. They are *not* run by Canonical, however Canonical is highly supportive of them and will provide assistance. We will cover the assistance offered later.
[11:04] <elkbuntu> Mostly, one LoCo is sufficient for a country, but some countries have chapters for states or regions due to the size of the country and/or population. We do prefer there to be a single national encompassing Team however, for communication sake.
[11:04] <elkbuntu> This means that they are teams based around certain locations that act as, among other things, contact points for people wanting to get involved in Ubuntu and the rest of the *buntu family of projects. They are a great stepping stone to the worldwide community.
[11:05] <elkbuntu> They are also excellent points of local advocacy, support (especially if they're based in non-english speaking areas) and all things of that manner.
[11:05] <elkbuntu> As such, due to the localised nature of these teams, they are also an excellent way to find someone else near you, that uses Ubuntu, and hence 'gets it'. We all know it can be quite lonely as the only person you know who uses Linux, let alone Ubuntu.
[11:06] <elkbuntu> Closely related to LoCo Teams are Language teams. These are often a group of LoCos that speak the same language and their primary focus is support in that language. Some people consider these to be LoCos in themselves, as they generally come under the LoCo umbrella. There are differing opinions of this, however.
[11:06] <elkbuntu> One aspect of LoCo Teams that we find is most important, is that they enable and encourage people to interact with other Ubuntu users that are actually near them, as opposed to the other side of the world.
[11:06] <elkbuntu> A single person with ideas is nothing compared to a dozen equally imaginative people :)
[11:07] <elkbuntu> To find your nearest LoCo Team, please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and find a team that covers your area.
[11:07] <elkbuntu> If you cannot find a team, or you do and it is unfortunately inactive, the best thing you can do is start a new team, or revive the inactive one. You do not need to know much about Linux or Ubuntu to do this, just how to be a part of a group.
[11:08] <elkbuntu> I will not go into the specifics of starting teams here today, but tomorrow at 19:00 UTC, Rich Johnson is running a session called "Creating a LoCo Team" which is perfect for anyone in this situation.
[11:08] <elkbuntu> oops... that's supposed to read today 2 hours ago :
[11:08] <elkbuntu> so yeah, discard that, and read logs instead
[11:10] <elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lococreate <-- this log
[11:10] <elkbuntu> Meanwhile, for those of you who have found an appropriate team, the easiest way to get involved is simply to participate.
[11:10] <elkbuntu> Join the IRC channel, post on the forum, etc. Once you get your foot in the door and make an effort, the rest usually writes itself. Many teams openly welcome any assistance with providing support, translating, and advocacy.
[11:11] <elkbuntu> Showing you care and putting a little bit of effort in goes a long long way to building a bond, and you will be appreciated.
[11:11] <elkbuntu> LoCo Teams are effectively the backbone of the Ubuntu Community. As the local community representation, they possess great power in building awareness and user numbers.
[11:11] <elkbuntu> For many places that speak languages other than english, providing support in local language, and translating are invaluable, as we all know, not everyone has perfect grasp of the English language (heck, this even includes supposedly native English speakers ;) )
[11:12] <elkbuntu> The more languages Ubuntu can be available in, or that people can get support in, the better chance it has to succeed.
[11:12] <elkbuntu> However, advocacy, I believe, is the strongest aspect of a LoCo. Who else is in a better position to reach out to an area, than a group that is already in that area.
[11:12] <elkbuntu> There's a number of ways LoCos can help advocate. Simply spreading the word is a great start, but there's lots of group activities that can be really powerful when done well.
[11:13] <elkbuntu> Putting posters up on community notice boards (with permission of course!), running stalls/booths at fairs and expos, writing to local media outlets, petitioning your local and national government and many more things, all help.
[11:13] <elkbuntu> There is an extensive wiki section at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase that documents alot of things that people have tried, with information about what worked well and what to avoid, along with some really cool tips.
[11:14] <elkbuntu> So how does a team get together, functioning and motivated to do things such as this? Well, that is up to each individual team. Each team has a person who fills the role called "Team Contact".
[11:14] <elkbuntu> These people are responsible for being the communication point for their teams, in this situation, their LoCo. This person not only communicates with other teams and the Ubuntu community at large (Speaking/writing English is a prerequisite for this), but often (but not always) acts as a leader figure.
[11:14] <elkbuntu> Some teams have multiple contacts, or a panel of leaders, but the general purpose is the same. It is a matter of how this works best for your particular team.
[11:15] <elkbuntu> Once a team is established, they can go for "Approved" status, which means they more or less become and official team in the project.
[11:15] <elkbuntu> Approved teams get special support in terms of a CD allocation with each release, hosting for team websites, and other random goodies.
[11:16] <elkbuntu> New and Unofficial teams also get help to get them started. They are entitled to a mailing list and an IRC channel under the Ubuntu namespace on this Freenode network. If they need, they are also entitled to request a subforum at Ubuntuforums.org
[11:16] <elkbuntu> I'll now take questions, so get asking in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 QUESTION: Is there some generic 'we're not responsable for data loss' form for when locos do install fests?
[11:17] <elkbuntu> Not that I am aware of.
[11:18] <elkbuntu> This would be a hard thing to achieve, since there's differing legislation across the globe, and some countries may not honor such statements
[11:19] <elkbuntu> it might be worth contacting the canonical legal team about this, however i havent got the contact info for themn offhand
 QUESTION: How soon after establishing the loco should we go for approved status?
[11:19] <elkbuntu> the issue is not time, but instead achievement
[11:21] <elkbuntu> we recommend at least 3 events, such as installfests, advocacy days (SoftwareFreedomDay for example) and fair/conference representations
[11:21] <elkbuntu> but also, the basic structures of communication need to be in place and working, and the team shouldnt be in a state of civil unrest
 QUESTION: What is the current over/under on getting mailing lists created in less than six months?
[11:22] <elkbuntu> emailing<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:22] <elkbuntu> this is one of the issues however that I will be harrassing people about next week at the Developer Summit :)
 QUESTION: This is US centeric, but how do I get a maryland.ubuntu-us.org address for the Loco?
[11:23] <elkbuntu> i'm not entirely certain who has authority for that domain, but i suggest harrassing richard (nixternal)
[11:24] <elkbuntu> at worst, he'd know who controls it
[11:24] <elkbuntu> if he doesnt, i'll tease him until he finds out
 QUESTION: Where can we go to get IRC meeting schedules for Loco topics?
[11:26] <elkbuntu> meetings go on the fridge, such as this: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/913
[11:27] <elkbuntu> that page points us to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
[11:28] <elkbuntu> for that meeting, our main focus will be discussing who i harrass about what next week, and those topics cover what is set as the agenda anyway
 QUESTION: How do you go about estimating the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
[11:28] <elkbuntu> Definately wikipedia :
 QUESTION: do you think loco teams should have a formal structure? Voting rights etc?
[11:31] <elkbuntu> I dont think there should be any forced structure imposed on a team. Some teams, due to their culture, whatever, need to be freeform, whilst others for the same reason, prefer or need formal structure.
[11:31] <elkbuntu> It's completely a matter of 'what works for you'
 QUESTION: How do we deal with LUGS in the area if they feel we're trying to replace them, despite our efforts to convince them otherwise?
[11:32] <elkbuntu> That is one of the biggest concerns we have with city-based locos, or city-based loco chapters, rather than state-based.
[11:33] <elkbuntu> Some lugs will see distro-specific teams as a threat if those teams have more momentum
[11:34] <elkbuntu> lugs that inherit a huge percentage of Ubuntu users, can often be put on the backfoot, and that old guy who's used slackware since the first floppy of it, will of course feel intimidated and/or jealous
[11:34] <elkbuntu> it comes with the territory of being popular, no matter who you are
 how about LoCos not related to a single country but to a language or culture, have they any change to get aproved?
[11:35] <elkbuntu> There is a kurdish team. I cannot recall it's exact status. there's also a regional team in china that iirc is based culturally rather than otherwise, but i cant recall that for sure either
[11:35] <elkbuntu> language teams can be tricky, especially for a language such as spanish that covers a whole continent, as well as spain and random other countries
[11:37] <elkbuntu> we need to take language teams on a case-by case basis, but for spain and france even (with canada and african countries speaking it) it is important to ensure those countries do not get overshadowed by the massive international populations for their languages
 QUESTION: When dealing with organizations that have a need for a computer room (for instance) is it fair to recommend a specialized distro (such as IPCOP) for specific purposes?
[11:39] <elkbuntu> chuckf, it's my opinion, and i say this honestly, that it is more important to make sure the distro someone use *does what they need*
[11:39] <elkbuntu> otherwise it is pointless.
[11:40] <elkbuntu> while we would prefer that distro to be Ubuntu, i'd rather they be happy with something else than unhappy with ubuntu.
 QUESTION: Are any of the LoCo groups involved with professional bodies at all (Over here in the UK we have The British Computing Society for example)?
[11:41] <elkbuntu> I think there will naturally be representation in those organisations. It's important to not force yourself onto a group, as it can quite easily cause problems such as rivalry between locos and lug in terms of those groups
 QUESTION: What do you think of your entry in http://planet.lugradio.org/facts
[11:42] <elkbuntu> i intend to harrass, tease and mercilessly annoy mr pope for the duration of UDS
[11:43] <elkbuntu> richb> elkbuntu: I was more thinking of promotion of Ubuntu-for example the BCS authors reports for the government on IT systems.
[11:43] <elkbuntu> richb, approach, petition etc them by all means. but keep within 'reasonable force'
 QUESTION: Is a LoCo the right place for me if I seem like a nice guy online, but am an annoying bastard in real life?
[11:44] <elkbuntu> probably. but if you know you're an annoying bastard real life, maybe that's a personality trait you need to work on. you'll probably find yourself happier
[11:45] <elkbuntu> online has a way of bringing out people's real selves, where they're not as afraid etc. you have the nice guy in you already, it's not a figment of the internet
[11:46] <elkbuntu> locos, especially those in largish countries, very rarely meet, and nobody is obliged to attend functions
 QUESTION: im in a region of Mexico where people speak many regional languages, not listed in the Ubuntu translations, can we create a Loco team and translate to that languages?
[11:46] <elkbuntu> methhhp_, i'd rather suggest create subteams in the existing loco to work on translating
[11:47] <elkbuntu> as a whole, one big mexico loco is going to be much much stronger than lots of tiny 2 or 3 person locos
[11:48] <elkbuntu> but by all means, if you know non-existant languages, and your team has speakers of these languages, get going with a translation
 QUESTION: Can virtual worlds like SecondLife also have LoCos?
[11:52] <elkbuntu> In a figurative sense, sure. However they're not likely to get cds, hosting or even mailing list support
[11:53] <elkbuntu> guilds, teams, unions, whatever your virtual world has, by all means make an ubuntu one
[11:55] <elkbuntu> Well, it seems that's all for the questions. If you have any further, we have an irc channel over at #ubuntu-locoteams and there's a mailing list mentioned in the /topic of that channel
[11:56] <elkbuntu> On behalf of the Ubuntu community, I'd like to thank you all for attending this Open Week. :)
[11:56] <elkbuntu> I think we've all learned a lot of cool new information
[11:57] <elkbuntu> Keep an eye out on this space, as I believe these weeks are going to become regular occurrances, probably coincidental with every release :)
[11:57] <elkbuntu> Again, thankyou all :)
[11:57] <MikeDK> no thank you:-)
[11:57] <elkbuntu> :)
[11:58] <ditsch> so, open week is over finally :( thx to everyone who held a session :)
[11:59] <MikeDK> yep lots of grats from DK
[11:59] <MikeDK> that's Denmark :-)
[12:00] <ditsch> btw, where's jono to hug him :P
[12:00] <MikeDK> lol
[12:01] <elkbuntu> ditsch, I would put money on either out playing metal, or at a bar consuming alcohol
[12:02] <ditsch> mmh, most likely