[18:43] <dunya> is anyone home?
[18:45] <dunya> I was going to see if there might b some awake to ask if their is a way to see if you can recover packages that you installed but 'lost'
[18:46] <FunnyLookinHat> dunya, ehhhh
[18:46] <FunnyLookinHat> You hailed ?
[18:46] <dunya> example downloaded blah blah programme but cant find it when you look for it
[18:46] <FunnyLookinHat> Can't find it where - in your Gnome Application menu ?
[18:46] <dunya> i get nervous typing on irc im sorry if its not makeing sense
[18:47] <dunya> yes
[18:47] <dunya> in the application menu
[18:47] <FunnyLookinHat> Hmm.
[18:47] <dunya> i also lost other things as well and i havent found a command to put them back
[18:47] <FunnyLookinHat> What application ?
[18:47] <dunya> kismet
[18:48] <FunnyLookinHat> try running it from the command line to make sure it's still installed?
[18:48] <FunnyLookinHat> Then if it is, you can just manually add a launcher to your gnome panel (Right click - Edit Menus)
[18:48] <dunya> ive been told kismet is exactly a go to starter programe for newbies but it was there and i was sick of no internet ..
[18:48] <dunya> ok
[18:48] <dunya> ok
[18:48] <FunnyLookinHat> I'm not really familiar with Kismet -
[18:48] <FunnyLookinHat> But if it's on your system, that's how you can create a launcher for it again.  :)
[18:48] <dunya> yeah
[18:48] <dunya> lol
[18:49] <dunya> kismet im finding to weird
[18:49] <dunya> is thier any other thing like it
[18:49] <dunya> wireshark i think hates me
[18:50] <dunya> i wouldnt use apt get to run the programe would i
[18:54] <ToyKeeper> FunnyLookinHat: Any plans to update the ubuntu-us-co web site?  I almost put last year's release party on my calendar, until I noticed the year was wrong.
[18:55] <FunnyLookinHat> ToyKeeper, Ah - you know...  someone should do that.
[18:55] <FunnyLookinHat> The meetup is what you should use as the calendar event if anything.
[18:55] <FunnyLookinHat> http://www.meetup.com/The-Denver-Boulder-Linux-Meetup-Group/events/17146193/
[18:56] <ToyKeeper> Yeah, but a search for "ubuntu colorado" leads to http://coloco.ubuntu-rocks.org/ ...  which has a big announcement for the 10.04 release party.
[18:57] <dunya> a party
[18:57] <dunya> i always come back when the good stuff is discussed :)
[18:58] <ToyKeeper> The meetup group isn't particularly discoverable...  at least, not on the first page of search results, and even though I'm on the mailing list I hadn't heard of it.
[18:58] <dunya> oh
[18:59] <dunya> is this a good site for commands or should i go to the ubuntu site for themhttp://www.unixguide.net/linux/linuxshortcuts.shtml
[19:00] <ToyKeeper> dunya: If you want to look through the packages you have installed, you could use the package manager or synaptic to browse...  or run 'dpkg -l | grep blah' to look for packages matching 'blah'.
[19:00] <dunya> ooooo
[19:00] <ToyKeeper> Once you find a package, you can list the files in it with 'dpkg -L mypackagename', or look for executable programs in the package with 'dpkg -L mypackagename | grep bin'.
[19:01] <dunya> wow
[19:01] <ToyKeeper> Or just take a guess...  open a terminal and then type mypa<tab> and chances are the shell will tab-complete the rest of the name for you.
[19:01] <dunya> i feel like such a noob
[19:02] <dunya> yeah i did mange to get that to work only it keeps saying file doesnt exist\
[19:02] <dunya> im assuming it exists but in the temp folder like in windows
[19:02] <ToyKeeper> BTW, why do you use kismet?  Trying to do some wardriving or break into someone's network?
[19:03] <dunya> um
[19:03] <dunya> i dont have internet
[19:03] <dunya> and the highschool next door has wifi
[19:03] <dunya> and i was desirus of leeching it to get my email and get local news
[19:04] <dunya> i havent used kismet because im way too much of a noob to get it going
[19:04] <ToyKeeper> The default network-manager applet should be able to tell you which networks are nearby.
[19:04] <dunya> wire shark only counts the loop back
[19:04] <dunya> it does they all have padlocks :(
[19:04] <dunya> (need a key)
[19:05] <ToyKeeper> Ah, so you are trying to get into a network designed to keep you out.
[19:05] <dunya> yes
[19:05] <dunya> i wish i didnt have to try
[19:05] <ToyKeeper> Kismet can analyze traffic for some of the weaker types of encrypted networks, but it's not going to do you much good for anything recent.
[19:05] <dunya> but one of my friends is a truck driver he swears but it
[19:05] <dunya> yeah
[19:06] <ToyKeeper> Unless they're using security tech from like 2003, you're probably out of luck.
[19:06] <dunya> i am think so as nwell but just to see whats around i can do that with wicid
[19:06] <dunya> not the high school they are up to date they use all linux
[19:07] <dunya> i guess i could ask the principal if i could use the schools wifi
[19:08] <dunya> kismet is a traffic "viewer' I take it then
[19:09] <ToyKeeper> It's mostly a scanning / wardriving tool.  It puts the card into promiscuous mode and reports on any random traffic it can hear.
[19:09] <dunya> like finding hidden networks
[19:10] <ToyKeeper> For most people, it's irrelevant...  because network-manager can also scan and show any networks nearby which don't have "keep out" signs on them.
[19:10] <dunya> um i turned that off somehow and cant access it for love or money
[19:11] <ToyKeeper> Kismet is more useful if you want to drive around until you find an open access point.
[19:11] <ToyKeeper> I can't really tell you much about gnome or the default ubuntu desktop and GUI tools.  I don't use them.
[19:11] <dunya> the buss is raqther unclassy for 'driveing' around looking for open nets
[19:12] <dunya> id like not to use them hence capt turn off stuff before he knows exactly how to turn it back when screws it up
[19:12] <dunya> im not exactly the most cafreful user when it comes to the package manager
[19:13] <dunya> and i dont know how to use grub at all
[19:14] <ToyKeeper> If there's any way you can do so, it would be immensely easier and more legal to get your own internet service.
[19:20] <ToyKeeper> FunnyLookinHat: Anyway, I mention the coloco site because some people in my area were trying to find a release party and weren't able to.  I had to tell them about it, since I'm the only one who was on the mailing list to hear about it.
[19:21] <ToyKeeper> (and the channel topic still points to the non-updated site, misleading anyone who gets far enough to look here)
[19:21] <dunya> yeah
[19:22] <dunya> im trying to remove the kismet now
[19:22] <dunya> its over my head and does what wicid does anyhow
[19:22] <dunya> they have it updated but you said my magic word legal
[19:42] <dunya> all that crud i dowloaded for nuthing grrrrr
[19:42] <dunya> thanks toykeeper
[19:43] <dunya> and funny looking
[19:44] <dunya> this is a good site http://lnag.sourceforge.net/
[19:46] <ToyKeeper> Cool.  I don't know what's good for new users...  been a linux sysadmin for 15 years, so it's a bit hard to relate.
[19:47] <dunya> yeah
[19:47] <dunya> i try to be a educated noob
[19:48] <dunya> bravely and boldly going forward
[19:48] <dunya> and asking advice when somthing is just too good sounding to be true
[19:48] <dunya> wow
[19:49] <dunya> 15 years of running nix
[19:49] <dunya> how many times have you had to reboot the server:)
[20:04] <FunnyLookinHat> ToyKeeper, Thanks for the heads up - I'll make sure everything gets updated.
[20:05] <ToyKeeper> :)
[20:05] <dunya> lol
[20:06] <dunya> toykeeper when did broadcom start supporting linux
[20:06] <ToyKeeper> I don't know.
[20:07] <dunya> it was rather cool finding a actual driver on their website
[20:08] <ToyKeeper> I really should reboot more often though.  I last logged into my notebook over 2 years ago.  It has been running all that time with ~300 windows open and no problems, but it would be a good idea to update to current software...
[20:08] <dunya> :)
[20:09] <dunya> that cannot happen with windows
[20:09] <ToyKeeper> BTW, in general, it's a bad idea in Linux to use any drivers directly from vendors.
[20:09] <ToyKeeper> Once in a great while, it's necessary, but it's pretty uncommon.  Distro-supplied stuff is preferable 99% of the time.
[20:09] <dunya> yeah i dled it and read in the kismet forums that use should use one from canotical or where you get your stuff from in ubuntu i.e the package manger would be best
[20:10] <ToyKeeper> Same goes for software in general.  Don't build it or install from upstream unless you have to.
[20:10] <dunya> of course my rihno dl method i dl then google
[20:11] <dunya> yeah kismet was like oh yeah you just use apt get blah blah i should have stopped when it said 404
[20:11] <dunya> i didnt tear anything up though
[20:12] <dunya> i hear there is a new ubuntu comming up
[20:14] <dunya> natty narwhal
[20:14] <FunnyLookinHat> ToyKeeper, site updated.
[20:15] <ToyKeeper> Sweet!  Thanks!
[20:15] <dunya> awsomnesss
[20:17] <FunnyLookinHat> gotta call hansons - they were supposed to call me today to help reserve the room.
[20:17] <dunya> ever notice that governments run some countries like chatrooms
[20:20] <FunnyLookinHat> errr
[20:20] <FunnyLookinHat> ?
[20:21] <dunya> i was makeing a random statemet possibly humourous
[21:31] <dunya> i c u l8ters


[05:57] <mvo> Chipaca: \o/ for your excellent code review
[06:41] <clobrano> morning o/
[06:51] <Chipaca> mvo: if you s/FIMXE/FIXME/, it'll get picked up by some tools better
[06:52] <mvo> hey clobrano and Chipaca
[06:52] <mvo> Chipaca: heh, thanks. sounds like I need more tea :)
[06:52] <Chipaca> mvo: how was this not obvious when I clearly said “bä bä svarta får”
[06:54] <mvo> :)
[06:55] <mvo> fixed
[06:57] <Chipaca> ouh
[06:57] <Chipaca> one thing
[06:57] <Chipaca> mvo: you're using %v with the output of cmd.Output()
[06:57] <Chipaca> mvo: that might not be what you want
[06:57] <Chipaca> cmd.Output() gives you a []byte
[06:58] <Chipaca> and []byte looks like [20 75 124 94 ...]
[06:58] <Chipaca> with %v i mean
[06:58]  * Chipaca can only handle short sentences this early
[06:58] <Chipaca> mvo: suggest using %s instead, or string(output) (although that creates a third copy)
[07:00] <Chipaca> although
[07:00] <Chipaca> that'd break your error message
[07:01] <Chipaca> because output will probably have \n's in it
[07:02] <Chipaca> mwhudson: congrats
[07:02] <Chipaca> mvo: not the first time i'm thinking we should hide all this stuff inside helpers somewhere :-/
[07:07] <mvo> Chipaca: uh, good point, let me fix this as well
[07:07] <Chipaca> mvo: bottom line would be: either remove the ()s, or %#q and string(output)
[07:07] <Chipaca> um
[07:07] <Chipaca> %q, not %#q
[07:08] <Chipaca> that is: either accept the \n's you'll get with %s, or quote the thing at the expense of some memory
[07:08] <Chipaca> it's build anyway, not a long-lived thing :)
[07:11] <mvo> Chipaca: indeed, let me add %q
[07:12] <Chipaca> and now i'm off to take the boys to school
[07:12] <mvo> Chipaca: see you
[07:12] <Chipaca> bbi~1h
[07:14] <mwhudson> Chipaca: \o.
[07:17] <fgimenez> good morning
[07:25] <fgimenez> hi mvo, how are you?
[07:26] <mvo> hey fgimenez, good morning. I'm good, how are you?
[07:27] <fgimenez> mvo, fine, a little cold this morning but anyways :)
[07:27] <fgimenez> mvo, i've been working on a logging package for the integration tests, can you have a look when you have the time https://code.launchpad.net/~fgimenez/snappy/integration-tests-verbosity-flag/+merge/273670 ?
[07:27] <fgimenez> mvo, no rush at all :)
[07:28] <mvo> fgimenez: sure, happy to do that
[07:28] <fgimenez> mvo, thanks a lot, specifically if you could address elopio's question it would be great
[07:30]  * mvo nods
[07:41] <dholbach> good morning
[07:45] <davidcalle> Morning o/
[07:58] <mvo> fgimenez: I commented in the MP, hope it makes sense, please let me know if there are any quesitons
[07:58] <fgimenez> mvo, ok thx :)
[08:34] <Chipaca> mvo: i have good news and bad news
[08:35] <Chipaca> oh, wait
[08:35]  * Chipaca checks something
[08:35]  * mvo waits
[08:35] <Chipaca> mvo: i have no bad news
[08:36] <mvo> *puhhh*
[08:36] <mvo> what was the bad news?
[08:36] <Chipaca> mvo: unless "i didn't know %q worked that way with []byte" is bad news, nothing :)
[08:36] <Chipaca> so the good news is, i learned that (wonder how many times i learned it before)
[08:37] <Chipaca> mvo: now, can we talk about husks? :)
[08:37] <mvo> Chipaca: you mean about leightweights ;)
[08:38] <mvo> Chipaca: is the other stuff addressed? if so and we can not find a better name husks win
[08:38] <Chipaca> mvo: i meant exuvia, sorry
[08:38] <Chipaca> "other stuff"?
[08:38]  * Chipaca looks
[08:38] <Chipaca> i thought that was all there was
[08:38] <mvo> Chipaca: I can't remember if so, then great, let me double check
[08:47] <mvo> Chipaca: some inline comments about tiny bits (comments, the one panic)
[08:47] <Chipaca> dude, i'd missed those entirely
[08:47]  * Chipaca reads
[08:48] <mvo> Chipaca: I like lightweights, so if its not too bothersome and makes stuff not too ugly I'm slightly in favour of changing (but not strongly)
[08:53] <davmor2> mvo: is that because you can't lift the heavy one ;)
[09:02] <mvo> davmor2: lol
[09:09] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Thursday, and happy World Sight Day! 😃   👓   👁
[09:27] <Chipaca> mvo: question for you
[09:27] <Chipaca> mvo: was going with lightweight.PartList
[09:27] <Chipaca> mvo: but then i thought, does that make you think you can range over it? should i call it a PartBag instead?
[09:28] <Chipaca> mvo: or did you mean just call it lightweight.Lightweight?
[09:33] <mvo> Chipaca: hm, PartBag sounds ok, PartList is probably ok as well, but you are right, there is this association with a real list then
[09:34]  * Chipaca nods
[09:47] <Chipaca> mvo: hmmmmmm
[09:47] <Chipaca> mvo: LoadActive() is “	return h.Load(h.ActiveIndex())”
[09:47] <Chipaca> mvo: not sure it's worth it :)
[09:49] <mvo> Chipaca: indeed, wasn't there error checking on the index before? or am I misrembmering?
[09:49] <mvo> definitely mistyping ;)
[09:49]  * Chipaca looks at merged-list
[09:50] <Chipaca> mvo: there is error checking
[09:50] <Chipaca> hmm
[09:51] <Chipaca> mvo: so LoadActive could return nil,nil if activeIndex<0, or nil, ErrNoActiveIndex or sth
[09:51] <Chipaca> either way the caller would have to handle it differently
[09:52] <mvo> Chipaca: aha, ok, in this case its not worth it I agree
[09:52] <Chipaca> that is, today: idx:=h.ActiveIndex(); if idx<0{not found}; if h.load(idx) errors { internal error }
[09:52] <mvo> Chipaca: I just noticed in the MP what looked like repeating code that could be done in a single place, but if it actually can't …
[09:52] <Chipaca> with active index: part,err:=h.LoadActive(); if err=NoActive{not found} else if err != nil {internal}
[09:55] <Chipaca> mvo: promise i'll revisit it in a month to see how we're actually using it and add convenience methods :)
[09:55]  * Chipaca adds a calendar thing
[09:55] <mvo> Chipaca: deal!
[10:12] <Chipaca> mvo: i think that addresses all your issues, please take a look when you cna
[10:12] <Chipaca> can*
[10:12] <sergiusens> morning
[10:15] <Chipaca> uia! un sergio!
[10:15] <Chipaca> sergiusens: morning
[10:16] <mvo> Chipaca: thanks, will do
[10:16] <mvo> sergiusens: good morning
[10:17] <Chipaca> mvo: ah, one question about the squashfs build branch
[10:17] <Chipaca> mvo: i heard something about moving build to snapcraft
[10:17] <Chipaca> mvo: is that accurate?
[10:18] <mvo> Chipaca: yes, eventually
[10:18] <mvo> Chipaca: we still need something for our tests in snappy I think
[10:18] <Chipaca> ok
[10:19] <sergiusens> Chipaca, mvo the code base for lp:snappy looks so different 5 days past
[10:19] <Chipaca> mvo: yes, but once snapcraft does build, let's not have two implementations of it :)
[10:19] <mvo> Chipaca: yeah, I agree, at the same time I don't want to be distracted by this just now :)
[10:20]  * Chipaca nods
[10:20] <Chipaca> speaking of changes to lp:snappy, how do you remove tags from it?
[10:21] <Chipaca> i added tags when playing with them, removed them, but they have appeared upstream somehow, and no amount of removing them makes them go away :-(
[10:21] <sergiusens> Chipaca, as in bzr tags?
[10:21] <Chipaca> yes
[10:21] <sergiusens> Chipaca, --overwrite I think, it is extremely complicated
[10:21] <mvo> does bzr tag --delete work?
[10:21] <Chipaca> it works locally
[10:21] <Chipaca> but --overwrite-tags says it's got nothing to do
[10:21] <mvo> but not with a lp prefix?
[10:22] <mvo> Chipaca: what tag should go?
[10:22] <Chipaca> mvo: " " and "\t"
[10:22] <sergiusens> Chipaca, interesting tags, those should stay :-P
[10:22] <Chipaca> sergiusens: um. Ok. Don't --print-ids then.
[10:23] <Chipaca> --show-ids i mean
[10:48] <Chipaca> whaaaat
[10:49] <Chipaca> no LastIndexByte before 1.5
[10:49] <Chipaca> sigh
[10:49]  * Chipaca fixes
[11:17] <Chipaca> hmm
[11:18] <Chipaca> tests pass here, with go 1.3. fail in tarmac. map output for failed tests is identical for obtained/expected.
[11:20] <Chipaca> wait, they're not all identical
[11:20] <Chipaca> differing keys:
[11:20] <Chipaca>     'installed_size':  expected '208', got '8260'
[11:20] <Chipaca> wtf
[11:34]  * guest42315 EWWWW mailing lists
[11:35] <Chipaca> guest42315: ?
[11:36] <guest42315> Chipaca, oh sorry /me /ame
[11:38] <Chipaca> sergiusens: ping
[11:39] <sergiusens> Chipaca, pong
[11:39] <Chipaca> sergiusens: any ideas wrt tests failing in tarmac in weird ways?
[11:41] <sergiusens> Chipaca, weird ways, no; what are you running?
[11:42] <Chipaca> sergiusens: in snappy, run-checks locally passes fine, every time, with go 1.5 and 1.3, starting from a pristine directory (just like tarmac does it)
[11:43] <Chipaca> sergiusens: in tarmac, https://code.launchpad.net/~chipaca/snappy/husk/+merge/273482/comments/690882
[11:44] <Chipaca> sergiusens: 4 failed tests, of which 1 the obtained/expected mappings are apparently identical
[11:44] <Chipaca> sergiusens: and the others differ in "installed_size", with 8k extra on disc
[11:44] <Chipaca> oh, wait, 8k extra
[11:45] <Chipaca> hmm
[11:45] <sergiusens> Chipaca, 'snappy unpack' and snappy installed on tarmac
[11:45] <sergiusens> Chipaca, could it be that?
[11:45] <sergiusens> Chipaca, not sure how unit the unit test is :-)
[11:45] <Chipaca> the 8k might be because i use tmpfs
[11:45] <Chipaca> snappy unpack not involved
[11:46] <sergiusens> Chipaca, don't use ue tmpfs locally and why would it be different?
[11:46] <sergiusens> if both places use tmpfs
[11:47] <Chipaca> sergiusens: in tmpfs a directory's du is 0, an empty file's du is 0
[11:47] <Chipaca> sergiusens: outside of tmpfs, both of those are 4k
[11:47] <Chipaca> or 2k or 16k
[11:47] <Chipaca> block size
[11:47] <Chipaca> dangit :(
[11:48] <Chipaca> sergiusens: thank you!
[11:49] <sergiusens> Chipaca, you did it all by yourself ;-)
[11:50] <Chipaca> sergiusens: you're a good sounding board
[11:50] <biezpal> Hi all! Is it hard to make our oem snap packages signed? :)
[11:53] <Chipaca> biezpal: put them in the store?
[11:55] <biezpal> Chipaca, is it enough to make it signed? actually, we just don't like "sideload" prefix :)
[11:55] <biezpal> and random string in version field..
[11:56] <biezpal> because of https://bugs.launchpad.net/snappy/+bug/1498396
[11:57] <Chipaca> oh, bug 1498396
[11:58] <Chipaca> i knew there was a bug about it but didn't find it when making the branch. fixed, anyway.
[11:58] <Chipaca> biezpal: data dir now has a 'current' link
[11:58] <biezpal> Chipaca, in current edge this bug is still exists
[11:58] <Chipaca> biezpal: anyway, getting it from the store is (for now) the only way to get it auth'ed
[11:59] <Chipaca> biezpal: really?
[11:59] <Chipaca> maybe i should've checked first :-/
[11:59]  * Chipaca checks now
[12:00] <soffokl> Chipaca, we are build it from edge channel
[12:00] <soffokl> sudo ubuntu-device-flash core 15.04 --channel edge --oem parallella_4.0_all.snap --device-part=device.tar.xz -o parallella1.img
[12:00] <Chipaca> soffokl: biezpal: 15.04?
[12:00] <Chipaca> yes, 15.04
[12:00] <Chipaca> sigh
[12:00] <Chipaca> needs backporting i guess
[12:01] <Chipaca> i was sure that was included in the latest 15.04
[12:01] <Chipaca> ah. no. it's for the next one. i remember now.
[12:02] <biezpal> for the next one edge?)
[12:04] <Chipaca> i mean: it's in rolling/edge
[12:04] <Chipaca> i guess it's not on stable
[12:04] <Chipaca> gah
[12:04] <Chipaca> i mean not on 15.04
[12:05] <Chipaca> biezpal: if youc reate the symlink by hand for now, things'll sort themselves out
[12:08] <biezpal> Chipaca, sigh
[12:08] <biezpal> thanks
[12:08] <Chipaca> $ ls -l /var/lib/apps/hello-world.canonical/
[12:08] <Chipaca> total 4
[12:08] <Chipaca> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Oct  8 12:03 1.0.18
[12:08] <Chipaca> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    6 Oct  8 12:04 current -> 1.0.18
[12:09] <Chipaca> biezpal: ^ :)
[12:09] <biezpal> Chipaca, handmade link? :)
[12:09] <Chipaca> biezpal: no, rolling edge
[12:10] <Chipaca> biezpal: s/15.04/rolling/ in your u-d-f command above and you get that
[12:10] <Chipaca> but rolling is the one we *actively* break :)
[12:10] <Chipaca> so beware
[12:11] <ogra_> we should really default to do development in 15.04 and forward port instead of the other way round
[12:11] <biezpal> Chipaca, ok, i guess we can use rolling for development purposes
[12:12] <sergiusens> Chipaca, can I get your opinion on https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/snapcraft/1500505/+merge/273826 ?
[12:12] <Chipaca> sergiusens: you can try :)
[12:13] <sergiusens> Chipaca, I don't like the MP, but I don't know what else to do
[12:14] <Chipaca> sergiusens: i guess the removing the dangling one if unresolved is the bit you don't like?
[12:15] <Chipaca> sergiusens: BTW, $ dpkg -S /usr/lib/jvm/java-7-openjdk-amd64/jre/lib/security/cacerts
[12:15] <Chipaca> openjdk-7-jre-headless:amd64: /usr/lib/jvm/java-7-openjdk-amd64/jre/lib/security/cacerts
[12:17] <sergiusens> Chipaca, oh, then that is fine and covered, what about libc6?
[12:17] <sergiusens> Chipaca, I might have been having issues with ':'
[12:19] <sergiusens> Chipaca, and wait
[12:19] <sergiusens> Chipaca, you just confused me, the thing it links to is what I can't figure out where it comes from
[12:19] <sergiusens> Chipaca, as in /etc/ssl/certs/java/cacerts
[12:19] <Chipaca> ca-certificates-java i'd assume
[12:20] <Chipaca> oh, oh, oh
[12:20] <Chipaca> i know what's missing here
[12:20] <sergiusens> Chipaca, nope
[12:21] <sergiusens> Chipaca, not provided by ca-certificates-java
[12:21] <Chipaca> ok, need to dig a bit more
[12:21] <Chipaca> but
[12:21] <Chipaca> you need to loop
[12:21] <sergiusens> to loop?
[12:22] <Chipaca> or does realpath do that?
[12:22] <Chipaca> if it's a symlink-to-a-symlink
[12:23] <sergiusens> Chipaca, oh, I can try (s/realpath/readlink/ I suppose)
[12:25] <Chipaca> realpath might resolve it; check (or read docs)
[12:25] <Chipaca> so
[12:25] <Chipaca> that file
[12:25] <Chipaca> is *probably* created by ca-certificates-java
[12:25] <Chipaca> via /etc/ca-certificates/update.d/jks-keystore
[12:26] <Chipaca> sergiusens: by running /usr/share/ca-certificates-java/ca-certificates-java.jar
[12:28] <Chipaca> sergiusens: realpath loops
[12:28] <Chipaca> sergiusens: you're set
[12:28] <sergiusens> Chipaca, this MP won't work :-)
[12:28] <Chipaca> still trying to understand it tbh :)
[12:29] <Chipaca> ah!
[12:29] <sergiusens> Chipaca, look at the bug
[12:29] <Chipaca> sergiusens: so, yes, change the first readlink to realpath
[12:29] <Chipaca> ... or something! i dunno
[12:29] <Chipaca> programming is complicated, i'm going to have a cuppa tea
[12:29] <sergiusens> Chipaca, so we don't run postinst for 'stage-packages'
[12:30] <sergiusens> Chipaca, and jdstrand is not using any of the java plugins
[12:30] <sergiusens> Chipaca, just downloading debs, so he doesn't have the certs; and I can't just copy because a bare bones system won't have them either
[12:30] <Chipaca> right
[12:31] <sergiusens> Chipaca, then there is libc6; do we want those libs in the snap or should they be allowed as dangling symlinks?
[12:35] <Chipaca> sergiusens: libc6 is problematic, because nss needs to be exactly the same
[12:35] <Chipaca> sergiusens: so copying it in won't work
[12:35] <Chipaca> sergiusens: that's how you get segfaults or, worse, weird behaviour
[12:37] <sergiusens> Chipaca, right, so I need to circle back with jdstrand to get more smarts in the click-review tool and also make sure that using 'stage-packages' requires hand holding in some cases
[12:39] <biezpal> Chipaca, cat /etc/lsb-release
[12:39] <biezpal> DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu
[12:39] <biezpal> DISTRIB_RELEASE=15.10
[12:39] <biezpal> DISTRIB_CODENAME=wily
[12:39] <biezpal> DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu Wily Werewolf (development branch)"
[12:39] <biezpal> (Parallella)ubuntu@localhost:~$ ls -l /var/lib/apps/parallella/
[12:39] <biezpal> total 4
[12:39] <biezpal> drwxr-xr-x 2 root ubuntu 4096 Oct 8 2015 ICaVaRAVXWYS
[12:40] <soffokl> sudo ubuntu-device-flash core rolling --channel edge --oem parallella_4.0_all.snap --developer-mode --device-part=device.tar.xz -o parallella2.img
[12:40] <Chipaca> ...
[12:40] <Chipaca> interesting :-/
[12:41] <Chipaca> wait
[12:41] <Chipaca> that parallela package
[12:41] <Chipaca> that was installed by u-d-f
[12:41] <Chipaca> and that u-d-f is probably not recent enough to include these changes?
[12:41] <Chipaca> soffokl: apt-cache policy ubuntu-device-flash if you please
[12:42] <soffokl> ubuntu-device-flash:
[12:42] <soffokl>   Installed: 0.31-0ubuntu1
[12:42] <soffokl>   Candidate: 0.31-0ubuntu1
[12:42] <soffokl>   Version table:
[12:42] <soffokl>  *** 0.31-0ubuntu1 0
[12:42] <soffokl>         500 http://ppa.launchpad.net/snappy-dev/tools/ubuntu/ vivid/main amd64 Packages
[12:42] <soffokl>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
[12:42] <soffokl>      0.20-0ubuntu1 0
[12:42] <soffokl>         500 http://kg.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ vivid/universe amd64 Packages
[12:46] <sergiusens> Chipaca, meh, ca-certificates-java.jar harcodes to /etc :/
[12:47] <Chipaca> sergiusens: when/how does u-d-f get rebuilt?
[12:54] <Chipaca> mvo: ok to top-approve merged-list?
[12:57] <mvo> yes, done so
[13:00] <Chipaca> mvo: no files were sneaked in to that branch last minute*
[13:00] <mvo> :P
[13:01] <Chipaca> * or so you think
[13:01] <Chipaca> snuck, not sneaked. sigh.
[13:02]  * ogra_ hands Chipaca a pair of sneakers
[13:02]  * Chipaca snickers
[13:03] <ogra_> yummy peanuts and caramel
[13:03]  * ogra_ wishes he could eat that :(
[13:03] <jdstrand> sergiusens: I guess you are saying some things should symlink out (libc6) but some things shouldn't (cacerts)
[13:04] <jdstrand> sergiusens: if you file a bug against the click-reviewers-tools project, I'll fix it. I have a couple of other things to fix this week
[13:04] <jdstrand> sergiusens: just let me know what is a legitimate symlink
[13:05] <Chipaca> ogra_: you want one of these: http://pickupthefork.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IMG_8754.jpg
[13:05] <ogra_> mean !
[13:06] <ogra_> (no sugar for me for another week  .... )
[13:07] <Chipaca> ogra_: oh! i thought it was the nuts you couldn't have
[13:07] <ogra_> well, i cant bite nuts :)
[13:08] <ogra_> (thats another 4 weeks)
[13:08] <Chipaca> hence why i thought one of those would give you the nuts+caramel thing without having to bite nuts
[13:08] <ogra_> heh
[13:08] <Chipaca> see, i'm so thoughtful it hurts
[13:11] <sergiusens> jdstrand, ok, it's mostly libc6 things as per what we discussed with Chipaca; for cacerts, I'm solving it in the jdk plugin, the error for it is fine, but I can't fix it in a generic way for stage-packages uses because some of these are postinst hook created.
[13:11] <ogra_> yay, maintainer scripts
[13:11] <ogra_> :P
[13:12] <jdstrand> sergiusens: won't the jdk plugin pull in a bunch of stuff I don't need?
[13:13] <jdstrand> sergiusens: why can't you examine the symlinks in the directory? perhaps you could prompt to include them from the system?
[13:14] <sergiusens> jdstrand, I have as a first approach https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/snapcraft/1500505/+merge/273826
[13:14] <sergiusens> jdstrand, I just feel it would be weird
[13:15] <jdstrand> sergiusens: at the very least, you should detect them and report them with suggestions on how to fix them, because if you don't then snapcraft will generate a package that fails review. the review tools could be the place to detect them and make a suggestion if you'd prefer
[13:15] <jdstrand> but it seems like snapcraft is in a position to fix things up
[13:15] <mvo> Chipaca: there are more branches ftw, just in case you are bored ;)
[13:16] <Chipaca> i saw nothing
[13:16] <mvo> fgimenez, elopio: could one of you install squashfs-tools on the tarmac server please?
[13:16] <jdstrand> eg, "oh, cacerts is pointing to something in /etc. let me copy what is in /etc to ./snap/etc and adjust the symlink
[13:16] <jdstrand> "
[13:16] <jdstrand> sergiusens: ^
[13:16] <sergiusens> jdstrand, yeah, I'll go with that branch and polish a bit to not include libc6 links
[13:17] <sergiusens> Chipaca, u-d-f, when you dput it
[13:18] <jdstrand> sergiusens: cool. btw, I don't care if you copy in place (your mp) or copy to the intended place and adjust the link (what I suggested). however, what I suggested is probably more robust if you have multiple symlinks to the same thing
[13:18] <sergiusens> Chipaca, ideally the ubuntu-snappy stuff goes to the archive and then gets rebuilt and it does so prior to a release
[13:19] <sergiusens> jdstrand, right, it could save more space, not sure if it would when everything is squashfs
[13:25] <fgimenez> mvo, sure, give me a minute
[13:28] <fgimenez> mvo, done http://paste.ubuntu.com/12714696/
[13:33] <Chipaca> ogra_: did you get too track down the ipv6-only thing?
[13:33] <Chipaca> (were you [going to be] doing that?)
[13:34] <ogra_> ipv6-only ?
[13:34]  * ogra_ hasnt heard of it
[13:37] <Chipaca> fgimenez: elopio: you might want to tell ogra_ about it :)
[13:41] <Chipaca> ogra_: rpi2 was coming up with only an ipv6 address (and i think fgimenez got it in kvm also once, but not consistent)
[13:41] <Chipaca> ogra_: but i don't know the details
[13:43] <ogra_> weird
[13:48] <fgimenez> ogra_, this is the bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/snappy/+bug/1503329
[13:51] <ogra_> fgimenez, well, there was a kernel update between 186 and 187 i think
[13:54] <ogra_> (no idea if related or not)
[14:21] <tedg> sergiusens: So I know we wanted to get rid of the situation where plugins subclass other plugins.
[14:21] <tedg> sergiusens: Did we also want to get rid of 'requires' in the plugin yaml?
[14:24] <sergiusens> tedg, hmm, wasn't aware of subclassing
[14:24] <sergiusens> tedg, as we discussed this last week https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/snapcraft/1500902/+merge/273444
[14:25] <sergiusens> still needs a round of testing for local plugins, but works fine otherwise
[14:26] <tedg> sergiusens: So I think that's fine, but the specific case here is a plugin that needs Python3, including PIP support, so it doesn't make sense to copy-and-past.
[14:26] <tedg> paste (should have cut-and-pasted that from somewhere)
[14:26] <tedg> sergiusens: So it'd like to basically have the python3 plugin run first for everything, which is kinda what requires did.
[14:26] <sergiusens> tedg, we have plugins already that base out of python3
[14:27] <sergiusens> tedg, oh, the requires problem and pull phases problem is a problem of the past; it is fine if a pull phase for every part can't be completed due to an 'after'
[14:28] <sergiusens> tedg, in the end, lp should not be a blocker (words out of beuno's mouth ;-) )
[14:29] <sergiusens> Chipaca, mind taking another look at https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/snapcraft/1500505/+merge/273826 ?
[14:31] <sergiusens> Chipaca, this time it is better
[14:31] <sergiusens> ogra_, why did you break my 2fa? :-P
[14:32] <ogra_> sergiusens, well, i was bored y'know
[14:32] <ogra_> (what do you mean ? )
[14:34] <ogra_> sergiusens, do you mean the authenticator app breakage ?
[14:34]  * ogra_ fully blames bzoltan_ for that :P
[14:35]  * bzoltan_ takes the blame ... do you want to punish me ;P
[14:35] <ogra_> i guess he will throw argentinian steaks at you :)
[14:36] <sergiusens> ogra_, hah, it is my 2fa device so now I am sort of in limbo :-P
[14:40] <matiasb> Chipaca, jdstrand, o/ good news, I managed to work-around transmission issues with mount/quotactl by using statvfs, and it works! I'll be uploading the fixed version later today :)
[14:40] <jdstrand> matiasb: great! :)
[14:41] <ogra_> yay
[14:43] <matiasb> jdstrand, btw, re random/uuid, everything seems to work ok even if that is denied by apparmor; I was thinking if I should I upload the package without any profile customization then? once the perm is added to the default template, future installs will get access? (it seems the profile is generated from the default template on install, right?)
[14:44] <jdstrand> matiasb: yes on all counts. if it works fine, but remove security-policy. it will use the default template with network-client. you'll have the denial until I do the upload
[14:44] <jdstrand> s/but remove/then remove/
[14:45] <matiasb> jdstrand, great, that's my plan then; that should go through review without any issues and without requiring manual intervention
[14:45] <jdstrand> matiasb: with that change and using 'architectures' in your package.yaml, it will pass automated review
[14:45] <jdstrand> yep
[14:45] <matiasb> correct
[14:51] <Chipaca> matiasb: you're building it multi-arch, yes? pretty please?
[14:51] <matiasb> Chipaca, yeap :)
[14:52] <Chipaca> sweet
[14:53] <Chipaca> pitti: you around? question about removing a service from systemd's status
[14:53] <pitti> hey Chipaca
[14:53] <Chipaca> pitti: hi!
[14:54] <Chipaca> pitti: right now, if you have a snap with a service, and upgrade it, the old service never goes away from systemctl
[14:54] <Chipaca> pitti: are we doing something wrong?
[14:54] <Chipaca> we stop the service, disable it, reload-daemon
[14:54] <pitti> Chipaca: you mean you don't stop the old service before upgrading?
[14:54] <Chipaca> we stop it
[14:54] <pitti> ah, then it should be stopped, no?
[14:54] <Chipaca> we disable it
[14:55] <Chipaca> we remove the service file
[14:55] <Chipaca> we do a reload-daemon or daemon-reload or whatever that was
[14:55] <pitti> daemon-reload
[14:55] <Chipaca> but it's still there in the systemctl output
[14:55] <pitti> Chipaca: with --all? yes, that's right
[14:55] <pitti> shoudl be inactive/dead then, or is it still running?
[14:56] <Chipaca> inactive/dead/not found
[14:56] <Chipaca> not with --all though
[14:56] <pitti> this happens a lot, particularly with instantiated units<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[14:56] <pitti> Chipaca: hm, by default "systemctl" only lists active units -- if it's listed there as inactive that's a bug indeed
[14:56] <Chipaca> systemctl show, not status, sorry
[14:56] <pitti> ah
[14:57] <pitti> you can still query e. g. the journal from the old units, or their status
[14:57] <sergiusens> Chipaca, another smaller one when you feel like dropping a finger on the approve button https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/snapcraft/1504174/+merge/273853
[14:58] <Chipaca> pitti: oh, wait, i spotted the bug. and it's mine. sorry to bug you :-/
[14:58] <Chipaca> pitti: wouldn't've spotted it without you though, so thanks ! :)
[14:59] <pitti> heh
[14:59] <pitti> Chipaca: so, this might just be a cosmetical thing -- systemctl status anything.service will say "not found"
[14:59] <pitti> (and exit with 3)
[15:00] <Chipaca> pitti: i was getting a list of all installed snaps
[15:00] <pitti> Chipaca: except that for services which did exist in the past you still get the old journal
[15:00] <Chipaca> pitti: not filtering by "active"
[15:00] <Chipaca> so i'm *asking systemctl for it myself*
[15:00] <pitti> with completely bogus names you just get not-found
[15:00]  * Chipaca puts the brown paper bag back on
[15:00]  * pitti pats Chipaca, no worries :)
[15:36] <ogra_> sergiusens, do we have a "null" plugin now ?
[15:36] <ogra_> or do i still have to abuse the copy plugin (and copy an empty README file) to just get some deb binary content
[15:37] <ogra_> (i thinnk someone said that was planned)
[15:40] <elopio> fgimenez: would it be too hard to add levels to the snappy/log ?
[15:42] <fgimenez> elopio, not sure, i can try in a branch
[15:42] <elopio> fgimenez: it would be awesome if we could make this an independent library. But just if the effort required is not too much.
[15:44] <elopio> fgimenez: also, there's https://github.com/golang/glog
[15:47] <fgimenez> elopio, ok thanks, i'll take a look
[16:26] <sergiusens> ogra_, it was an idea, but is there any case where that would produce a good snap?
[16:26] <ogra_> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ogra/+junk/htop-unconfined/view/head:/snapcraft.yaml
[16:26] <sergiusens> jdstrand, this should solve minecraft (except for libc6 libs) https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/snapcraft/1500505/+merge/273826
[16:27] <ogra_> sergiusens, ^^^ thats what i use now to quickly pack a tool if i need it ...
[16:27] <sergiusens> ogra_, heh, the 'nop' plugin I need to propose
[16:27] <ogra_> its just silly to have an empty README file to copy around just to get the staging packag
[16:27] <ogra_> e
[16:28] <ogra_> i mean it doesnt bother me to do it like that, it just feels a little wrong inside :)
[16:30] <elopio> this is cool https://github.com/bluele/factory-go
[17:36] <mvo> elopio: nice!
[18:47] <jdstrand> sergiusens: thanks! I assigned the crt bug to me. I'll fix it tomorrowish
[20:27] <sergiusens> elopio, I hope you like this http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/snapcraft/1500902/revision/235 (I am finally getting rid of most of the getattr's in there too)
[20:27]  * sergiusens heads out for some errands
[21:19] <tedg> sergiusens: I'm having a heck of an issue getting pip to install the aws cli binary
[21:20] <tedg> sergiusens: Any ideas there. It installs the library, but not the actual thing in /usr/bin
[21:20] <tedg> Considering just working around it at this point, but seems like defeat.
[22:01] <sergiusens> tedg, does the setup.py declare any scripts?
[22:01] <sergiusens> tedg, can you point be to the package name?
[22:05] <tedg> sergiusens: It's the awscli from pypi
[22:05] <tedg> Let me look for the setup.py
[22:07] <tedg> Oh, oops. I did a snapcraft clean. Give me a sec to have that :-)
[22:12] <tedg> sergiusens: Doesn't seem to have a setup.py
[22:27] <sergiusens> tedg, it works fine in a pyvenv
[22:27] <tedg> Hmm, bother.
[22:30] <sergiusens> tedg, it has scripts in setup.py, it should just work
[22:30] <tedg> sergiusens: I gonna have to look more tomorrow, seems so simple, sure it's a one character change.
[22:30] <sergiusens> tedg, which also makes me wonder, have you tried making the python plugins work with pyvenv?
[22:31] <tedg> sergiusens: we had wanted to avoid that, apparently it changes a lot, mostly stuff that the python interpreter should do on it's own. But apparently makes things weird for other cases.
[22:31] <tedg> sergiusens: So, no, but I was asked to avoid it.
[22:32] <sergiusens> tedg, ok; seems like we should use it from what others have said


 Just tried snappy core on raspi.  I didn't like it.  I couldn't install VLC player.
 Which pi?
 snappy core is not meant as a desktop
 I don't think you even have X11
 @ahoneybun, Technically X11 can be forwarded
 I'm trying to set up one of my home automation announcers.
 vlc-nox is a ui-less version of VLC media player.
 https://github.com/JamesTheHacker/passman
 @AdamOutler, I like the Nextcloud passman
 Nexus5x. PureNexus or Lineage?
 Why not stick with stock?
 Curiosity.
 Not sure
 Had the 5x for a while.
 Just wondering what non-stock is like.
 been on the beta program for a while without too many problems.
 Why not try O
 I probably will when it ages a bit -- Not sure I want to rock the O as a daily driver just yet.
 meh, flashing stock N back because I'm indecisive
 I'll look into O asap
 O?
 Oh, O, lol
 Alpha
 Does anyone have an old Mobo/CPU combo they don't want anymore?
 @Ivoriesablaze, How old?
 Well, anything within the last 8 years
 I have an old computer sitting under a desk that I dont need. It is not going to win any awards, it is an old Core2Duo
[18:12] <roaksoax> /w/win 8
 That's perfect
 Its all yours
 Sweet, thanks, what kind of ram does it take?
 My dad likes to keep a lot of tabs open, so I'm probably gonna have to purchase a lot of ram, lol
 Not sure but I may have RAM
 It is a complete computer, not just the Mobo/CPU
 Awesome, you rock, though I may put in a ssd just to make it look like it's a fast computer, lol
 It is sata, right?
 It is
 @itnet7 there is a person up for Ubuntu membership today who is near you
 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Merritt+Island,+FL/@28.2756305,-80.8076556,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x88de02e6807a6781:0xd2016c1385ff6777!8m2!3d28.3180688!4d-80.6659842
 I wouldn't call Melbourne close
 Oh, at chris
 Lol
 @KMyers cool, we'll have to find a way to get together, I'm trying not to travel much right now
[22:10] <ahoneybun> heyo clvx
[22:24] <clvx> Hi ahoneybum
[22:25] <ahoneybun> we're trying to do UbuntuHours and other events but most of us are down south
[22:25] <ahoneybun> other then Chris and Michael (mhall119)
[22:34] <clvx> I'm in central Florida.. maybe I'll ping Chris and see what we can do..


[08:13] <JonathanD> Morning.
[09:09] <rmg51> Morning
[12:05] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples, dogs, turkeys and everything else
[12:11] <InHisName> good morning to you all
[13:08] <ChinnoDog> morning
[16:20] <Samuraialba> Good bacon to all!
[17:11] <InHisName> Hey Guys, I have software update running and it says:  "Installing Updates"  "Running post-installation trigger dpkg-exec"   Details --> 95% completed and has been stuck there for hours/days now.   What to do about this ?
[17:48] <Samuraialba> Not sure, man
[17:48] <Samuraialba> I have no clue
[17:48] <Samuraialba> This is unfortunately, a Windows Shop :(
[17:48] <Samuraialba> I'm running Ubuntu in aVM and I'll see if I can replicate
[17:49] <InHisName> I doubt it.   Something's gone wrong.  Just want to know what to do the make recovery least difficult.
[17:56] <ChinnoDog> InHisName: Can you expand the dialog to see a command prompt waiting for input?
[17:56] <ChinnoDog> I see those sometimes when I update a package that is complaining about a customization I did.
[17:56] <InHisName> The "Details" shows only a progress bar.  No command line to type input.
[17:57] <InHisName> Title is "Software Updater"
[17:57] <ChinnoDog> I would kill the process tree and then run apt to fix the database
[17:57] <ChinnoDog> and then you can try the update again
[17:57] <InHisName> Can it do a nice recovery from  a FIRM power down and then a restart ?
[17:58] <ChinnoDog> It isn't Windows. Fix your file system before you shut down. :-)
[17:58] <InHisName> True, its Ubuntu
[17:59] <InHisName> What to fix ?
[17:59] <ChinnoDog> The package database. The next time you run apt after killing the update it will tell you to run a command to repair the database
[17:59] <ChinnoDog> Then it will check your packages, run the triggers that were not run before, and help you add/remove packages so it isn't borked anymore.
[18:00] <InHisName> I would do this right after rebooting ?
[18:00] <ChinnoDog> You don't need to reboot
[18:00] <ChinnoDog> Do it now, without rebooting
[18:00] <InHisName> What commands to run ?
[18:01] <ChinnoDog> use killall to take down the process tree
[18:01] <InHisName> Do now ? with this panel still open?   There is NO "X" button and "cancel" is grey.
[18:01] <ChinnoDog> Then run apt. I don't know if you need a command to get it to tell you to fix stuff.
[18:01] <ChinnoDog> Do it from a command line
[18:02] <ChinnoDog> I need to eat lunch. bbiab
[18:03] <InHisName> Could not get a lock, Is another process using it ?
[18:04] <InHisName> Seems that this stuck panel is blocking usage of apt-get system.
[19:06] <ChinnoDog> so kill it
[19:25] <ChinnoDog> InHisName: did you fix it?
[21:43] <ChinnoDog> One of these days I need to learn to use busybox to recover after screwing up my fstab
[22:26] <waltman> Alternatively, you could stop screwing up your fstab. :)
[22:32] <ChinnoDog> That too. I should use mount options that actually exist.
[22:32] <jthan_> Seems to me that you just got burned, ChinnoDog
[22:33] <ChinnoDog> jthan--
[22:33] <jthan> PennBot is a lie.


[19:15] <YuraDoc> Hello. does anybody could help install driver for ATI Radeon HD 5730
[19:16] <YuraDoc> I had try all possible variants without success


[00:00] <PhotoJim> piercedwater: not sure, but Ubuntu works ok on these machines.  I have a 2450.  booting off the internal SCSI, but have a SATA PCI card for a pair of SATA drives for my actual server directories.
[02:23] <CppIsWeird> where does ubuntu store the uuid for the /dev/mapper for cryptodrives in the initramfs?
[03:03] <CppIsWeird> i went to edit /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/cryptroot only to find that i do not have one.
[03:18] <anzenketh> I attempted to schrink some logical volumes and now /home and /var will not mount
[03:19] <anzenketh> Can somone help me fix that
[03:27] <CppIsWeird> how come im on an encrypted system yet /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/cryptroot does not exist? how do i modify my kernels cryptroot file?
[06:06] <boxbeatsy> hi, i'm on an ubuntu server, and i'm finding that my python scripts are randomly terminating.  i don't have any apparent internal or external signals that would cause this, so i'm thinking that it is a memory issue.  does anyone know where i should look for logs to confirm this?
[07:09] <jmarsden> boxbeatsy: If you can make the issue happen at will, you could try running one of the scripts inside strace and check the resulting (long!) output to see what killed the script?
[07:20] <boxbeatsy> jmarsden: aah thanks for the suggestion.  i acutally think i found the problem.. i was running 100 instances of polipo not knowing that it has an inmemory cache that over time builds up to 25MB
[07:21] <jmarsden> OK.  100 * 25MB = ~2.5GB of RAM... shouldn't be a major problem on a server, though, should it?
[07:23] <boxbeatsy> i believe my server only has 1.7GB of RAM
[07:23] <boxbeatsy> :\
[07:24] <boxbeatsy> is that unusual?
[07:24] <boxbeatsy> i thought it was on the small end, but didnt know (pretty new to workign with external servers)
[07:24] <boxbeatsy> it's an EC2 medium sized instance
[07:26] <jmarsden> Well, it all depends.  At work, real physical servers tend to have 4GB to... well, 128GB of RAM :)
[07:27] <jmarsden> I'm not sure what the common sizes are for virtual server machines in an EC2 cloud, that's a whole different world.
[07:28] <boxbeatsy> holy crap
[07:28] <boxbeatsy> yea...i just checked..it's a measly 1.7gb
[07:31] <jmarsden> Sounds like you could either find a different program to do what you want, or hack polipo to set a smaller max cache size, maybe 4Mb instead of 25MB?
[07:37] <boxbeatsy> jmarsden: yea im setting it to <1mb now cause i'm not even using the caching capabilities.  i'm just using it to assist in proxy authentication
[07:37] <jmarsden> OK.  Sounds like that should work for you.
[07:38] <boxbeatsy> thanks for the help :)
[07:39] <jmarsden> You're welcome.
[08:10] <thisIsNash> Can I get ubuntu server tech support here?
[08:28] <jmarsden> thisIsNash: Maybe... it's a little late at night, not many people are around... ask your specific question and see who answers :)
[13:34] <Woutje123> Dustin Kirkland in?
[13:41] <Nafallo> Woutje123: he's been idle for 21h... not likely.
[13:41] <Woutje123> aah
[13:41] <Woutje123> Thanks for replly...
[13:41] <Woutje123> reply
[15:18] <Chat8152> this is so cool. I am actually chatting from my blackbwrry
[15:20] <compdoc> hope youre not driving
[15:20] <evon> lol no
[15:21] <evon> now I can get help with my ubuntu box if it is broken
[15:25] <binBASH> evon: It would be cool indeed when you're chatting from your blackberry while being in cairo
[16:01] <storrgie> how can I check to see if my NIC is running at gigabit speeds?
[16:03] <compdoc> could copy large files, or look at the lights on your switch
[16:03] <compdoc> many have a different color or some way to indicate what speed
[16:05] <compdoc> dmesg |grep eth0
[16:08] <oCean> ethtool <interface>
[16:10] <Woutje123> Mr. Kirkland?
[16:41] <daisy> hello?
[16:42] <compdoc> howdy
[16:43] <daisy> hey compdoc
[16:43] <daisy> I'm trying to set up 'new mail' emails from my server to another email account
[16:43] <daisy> I'm not sure how to
[16:43] <daisy> any ideas?
[16:43] <daisy> I don't want to just forward the mails
[16:44] <daisy> I'm using Postfix on Ubuntu
[16:44] <daisy> if that helps
[16:45] <compdoc> hang out and see if someone helps. Im not a Postfix guru by any means
[16:45] <compdoc> you can also google postfix issues - doesnt have to be on an ubuntu system
[16:46] <daisy> I'd use mailbox_command and insert echo "New Mail" | mail whoever@wherever && before it, except I disabled it because it stops execution, and messed up my Maildir config
[16:46] <daisy> thanks anyway :)
[16:46] <compdoc> usually, one account can have several email addresses, if thats what youre doing
[16:46] <daisy> yeah, I've had a look, it doesn't seem to be a common problem
[16:47] <daisy> yeah, I've set up some aliases, so for example webmaster -> root
[16:47] <compdoc> you know more than I thought :)
[16:47] <daisy> and if I wanted the whole email to get sent, I'd just put other email addresses in .forward
[16:47] <daisy> thanks :)
[16:48] <daisy> but I want at most the subject in the notification, if that
[16:48] <Dragonshadow> Hi
[16:48] <daisy> hey
[16:49] <daisy> Dragonshadow: do you know Postfix well?
[16:49] <Dragonshadow> I've got a kind've odd postfix problem and was directed to this irc to ask for help xD
[16:49] <Dragonshadow> daisy: lol ^
[16:49] <daisy> lol
[16:49] <daisy> well, lets see if we can help each other
[16:49] <Dragonshadow> what's your problem?
[16:49] <daisy> I'm trying to set up 'new mail' emails from my server to another email account, without just forwarding the email
[16:50] <daisy> and without using the mailbox_command variable
[16:50] <daisy> yours?
[16:50] <Dragonshadow> Recipient address rejected: gmail.com when trying to send mail
[16:50] <Dragonshadow> receiving works just fine though
[16:50] <daisy> is your isp blocking port 25?
[16:51] <Dragonshadow> this is local testing with telnet
[16:51] <daisy> try telnetting p25 from outside
[16:52] <daisy> it could be that your isp requires you to relay outgoing messages through their servers, to stop spam
[16:52] <Dragonshadow> this is on a dedicated server so...
[16:52] <daisy> ok, so not a dynamic ip then? :)
[16:53] <Dragonshadow> nope
[16:53] <Dragonshadow> and telnetting from outside works
[16:53] <daisy> can you send to non-local, non-gmail accounts?
[16:54] <Dragonshadow> gimme one to try
[16:54] <Dragonshadow> lol
[16:54] <daisy><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:54] <daisy> be nice :)
[16:55] <Dragonshadow> I won't spam :p
[16:55] <Dragonshadow> Recipient address rejected: nightcoat.info
[16:56] <daisy> hmm
[16:57] <Dragonshadow> Btw, I don't really understand what you want to do
[16:57] <Dragonshadow> only forward new mail?
[16:58] <Dragonshadow> or rewriting the headers so it looks like its supposed to go to the new mail
[16:58] <daisy> well, I get emails to nightcoat, and I want my gmail address to be notified that there's a new message, without just forwarding the message
[16:58] <daisy> if that makes sense?
[16:58] <Dragonshadow> that could get rather spammy if you could do that
[16:59] <Dragonshadow> each time you get an email on nightcoat you'd get an email notif that you have new email on your gmail
[16:59] <daisy> yeah, I know
[16:59] <daisy> hopefully I'll be able to set some rules
[16:59] <daisy> like max daily or whatever
[16:59] <Dragonshadow> http://serverfault.com/questions/228828/postfix-new-mail-notification-to-gmail is this you? xD
[16:59] <daisy> XD
[16:59] <daisy> yup
[17:02] <daisy> can you post your main.cf?
[17:04] <Dragonshadow> its kind've a mess
[17:05] <daisy> embarrassed? I won't laugh
[17:05] <Dragonshadow> I honestly dunno if anything in there is a security flaw so I just query'd it to you :p
[17:08] <Dragonshadow> I'm wondering if it might be reject_unknown_recipient_domain
[17:12] <Dragonshadow> brb
[17:15] <daisy> Dragonshadow: Mine has reject_unknown_recipient_domain too, I don't think it's that
[17:17] <daisy> you've not got anything for mydestination, any reason? or any myorigin.
[17:19] <azertyu> hello
[17:19] <azertyu> i installed ubuntu 10.10 server
[17:20] <azertyu> and also installed ubuntu-desktop
[17:20] <azertyu> now my question is how to run gnome ?
[17:20] <Cromulent> why do you want to run gnome on the server?
[17:20] <compdoc> I do :)
[17:21] <azertyu> sometime it is helpfull to troubleshoot problem
[17:21] <azertyu> to install no machine
[17:21] <azertyu> no machine ns
[17:21] <azertyu> no machine nx
[17:21] <daisy> azertyu: it'd be easier to just install desktop ubuntu, and apt-get apache etc
[17:22] <compdoc> I did what daisy suggests - works better
[17:22] <daisy> I don't think you want to be messing with X/gnome manually
[17:23] <azertyu> i got ubuntu-desktop and apache allready present on my sys
[17:23] <azertyu> doing an ssh session -X how to run ubuntu-desktop ?
[17:24] <compdoc> startx doesnt work?
[17:26] <Dragonshadow> back
[17:26] <Dragonshadow> daisy: you setup to use amavis aswell?
[17:26] <daisy> it's on my to-do list :)
[17:26] <Dragonshadow> hrm.
[17:27] <Dragonshadow> I don't think it
[17:27] <Dragonshadow> nah
[17:27] <Dragonshadow> content filter wouldn't touch domains
[17:27] <Dragonshadow> Can I see your main.cf?
[17:27] <daisy> it could be a banned from: to: address combination
[17:27] <daisy> yeah, ok
[17:28] <awanti> Hi. I need to login ubuntu server remotely. I am in different place. But that server is in LAN environment. So how could i login through ssh or any?
[17:28] <Woutje123> anybody here with power management expertise?
[17:28] <Woutje123> pm-suspend and that stuff?
[17:28] <azertyu> no startx not working also daisy
[17:28] <Dragonshadow> awanti: you'd need to connect to a machine on it's network
[17:28] <Dragonshadow> and then ssh from it
[17:28] <Woutje123> azrtyu is gdm installed?
[17:29] <daisy> awanti: if you're behind a router you'll need to set up port-forwarding
[17:29] <Dragonshadow> or you could do that..
[17:29] <Dragonshadow> lol
[17:29] <daisy> by going to <IP_ADDRESS> or wherever, it'll probably have it's own config page
[17:30] <daisy> you can use traceroute to find it's address, it'll prob be the first entry
[17:30] <awanti> plz. How? Can u give steps or any ...?
[17:30] <azertyu> yes gdm allready present
[17:30] <daisy> ok, type 'traceroute google.com' and paste the first few results here
[17:30] <azertyu> yes gdm allready present Woutje123
[17:31] <Woutje123> what does "sudo /etc/init.d/gdm restart" do?
[17:32] <daisy> restarts gdm :P
[17:32] <daisy> Dragonshadow, I've query'd it to you
[17:32] <Dragonshadow> I see it, thnaks
[17:32] <Dragonshadow> thanks even
[17:32] <Dragonshadow> lol
[17:32] <Woutje123> thanks daisy.... ;-)
[17:33] <Woutje123> Mr. Kirkland not online yet?
[17:34] <azertyu> restart gdm but there is no display on my screen
[17:34] <daisy> less pedantically, it'll incorporate changes to config files
[17:34] <Woutje123> aah
[17:34] <Woutje123> sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[17:35] <Woutje123> anybody know why my eth0 wol setting are reset just before suspend?
[17:35] <azertyu> done Woutje123
[17:36] <awanti> Thanks Dragonshadow & daisy i found the answer thanks once again
[17:36] <Dragonshadow> yw
[17:36] <daisy> no worries
[17:36] <Woutje123> now restart gdm again
[17:37] <daisy> W123: maybe something to do with powersaving
[17:37] <Woutje123> when i do:"sudo ethtool -s eth0 wol pug"
[17:37] <Woutje123> ethtool eth0 says: "Wake-on: pug"
[17:37] <Woutje123> then i issue "sudo pm-suspend"
[17:38] <Woutje123> it doesn;t wake from unicast
[17:38] <azertyu> restart but there is no display , don't forgot i connect to my server with ssh -X
[17:38] <Woutje123> when I wake the server with "wakeonlan [mac-address]"
[17:38] <Woutje123> it wakes
[17:38] <daisy> does your motherboard support wol? often they don't, or they default turn off certain features
[17:38] <Woutje123> then ethtool eth0 says:"Wake-on: g"
[17:39] <Woutje123> I can wake it using magic packet
[17:39] <patdk-lap> hmm, waking from off, and waking from suspend are totally different :)
[17:39] <Woutje123> I used to be able to wake it with unicast (ping)
[17:39] <patdk-lap> wake from suspend doesn't use the bios
[17:39] <Woutje123> I think with either 9.10 or 10.04
[17:40] <patdk-lap> also make sure it's not set to turn off the nic, on suspend
[17:40] <Woutje123> azerty, sorry bout that.
[17:40] <Woutje123> all that stuff i let you do wont work.....
[17:40] <Woutje123> patdk-lap: how would I go about that?
[17:41] <daisy> :D
[17:41] <patdk-lap> I wouldn't know, I never suspend linux machines :) only windows
[17:41] <Woutje123> patdk-lap: remember I can wake the system with magic packet (from suspend)
[17:41] <patdk-lap> above you said it wouldn't?
[17:41] <patdk-lap> so what exactly will and won't it do?
[17:42] <Woutje123> patdk-lap: I set ethtool to wake on unicast, physical and magic packet
[17:42] <Woutje123> when I issue a suspend it will only wake from magic packet
[17:42] <patdk-lap> oh, so wakeonlan works
[17:42] <Woutje123> when I check the settings after suspend and wake it's reset to only wake on magic packet
[17:43] <daisy> W123: you say the same machine used to wake from unicast in a previous ubuntu?
[17:43] <Woutje123> that is correct daisy
[17:43] <patdk-lap> the setting doesn't survive reboots/suspend
[17:43] <Woutje123> azerty: what happens if you do a "gnome-session"?
[17:43] <patdk-lap> add that setting into /etc/network/interfaces in post-up
[17:44] <Woutje123> havent tested reboot, but suspend doesn't work
[17:44] <Woutje123> I think it's reset just before suspend
[17:45] <Woutje123> otherwise it should wake up and have the wrong settings for the next suspend/wake
[17:48] <daisy> W123, perhaps it's just not persistent, and isn't being set at waketime
[17:48] <daisy> annoying, but have you tryed this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=234588 ?
[17:49] <daisy> the init.d script might help
[17:50] <daisy> bye guys
[18:28] <azertyu> from xterm unable to connect to ubuntu-desktop
[18:29] <gobbe> unable to connect with how?
[18:35] <azertyu> from ssh
[18:35] <azertyu> this is what i got if i try startx from my xterm
[18:35] <azertyu> http://paste.ubuntu.com/560318/
[18:42] <gobbe> eh? you don't start X from there, you just start programs, like xterm or something else
[18:43] <gobbe> so what you are trying to achieve?
[18:48] <Dragonshadow> 550 5.1.1<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Recipient address rejected: gmail.com
[18:48] <thesheff17> azertyu: there is a package called xvfb which is a x frame buffer...simply do apt-get install xvfb then tunnel x through an ssh command example: ssh -X<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and then you can run any X program though the frame buffer and it will appear on your machine. I use it all the time to run firefox on servers that don't have GUI remotely.
[18:55] <azertyu> ok
[19:10] <azertyu> back
[19:10] <azertyu> yes me also i  use to do same as use thesheff17
[19:10] <azertyu> but the problem i can't able to run startx from xterm
[19:11] <azertyu> i got this error : http://paste.ubuntu.com/560318/
[19:11] <thesheff17> it looks like the xserver is already started
[19:11] <thesheff17> did you try to hit ctrl-alt-F7
[19:12] <thesheff17> you can also try to do /etc/init.d/gdm restart should restart everything for x.
[19:12] <thesheff17> or are you trying to do this all remotely?
[19:16] <azertyu> yes correct
[19:17] <thesheff17> azertyu: well I never tried to run the whole xserver remotely....usually people use vnc or freeNX
[19:18] <azertyu> i isntalled freenx on server
[19:18] <azertyu> i use no machine X from client
[19:18] <azertyu> i also installed ubuntu-desktop on my server
[19:19] <thesheff17> azertyu: you might also ask in the ubuntu irc.  I don't know about running an entire xserver remotely.
[19:19] <azertyu> when i try to connect to my server from no machine X i just only got xterm opening but can't open ubuntu-desktop
[19:19] <patdk-lap> you shouldn't be able to
[19:19] <patdk-lap> cause you need a way to access it
[19:20] <patdk-lap> be it vnc, nx, or some other remote desktop viewer
[19:20] <azertyu> and if i do startx from server i got error that error : http://paste.ubuntu.com/560318/
[19:21] <azertyu> patdk-lap: i installed freenx on my server and nomachine x on client
[19:21] <azertyu> can't open ubuntu-desktop that's my problem
[19:21] <patdk-lap> well, you shouldn't be running startx
[19:21] <patdk-lap> cause it's already running
[19:21] <azertyu> ok
[19:21] <patdk-lap> well, sounds like you need to configure nx correctly then
[19:21] <patdk-lap> to get access
[19:21] <azertyu> then why i don't have display ?
[19:21] <patdk-lap> how did you login to it?
[19:21] <azertyu> what you meean " correctly " ?
[19:21] <patdk-lap> ssh?
[19:22] <azertyu> no from nomachine x
[19:22] <patdk-lap> and if it doesn't give you a display, then something is messed up
[19:22] <patdk-lap> follow the instructions on how to set it up again
[19:25] <dominicdinada> questions about pgsql ? in unbuntu server
[20:02] <xperia> hello to all. anybody here with some knoweledge about networking problem debuging. i have a ubuntu server and all people say it is heavy slow. i need somehow to analys or better isolate where the problem is located. IS it My ISP with the Fixed IP that is maybe bad Routed, is it my Linksys WRT54GL Router or is it my Ubuntu Server itself.
[20:02] <xperia> anybody here how can help me a little maybe ?
[20:07] <thesheff17> xperia: wireshark will log everything that is going in/out of the server on the network.  top will show you current cpu/ram load on the server.  Sounds like your clients are connecting through wireless....if you hook a cable directly to the network is it faster?
[20:09] <tdn> After installing Kubuntu 10.10 my NFS mounts does not work anymore. I just get "mount.nfs: Connection timed out" when trying to mount them. How do I fix this? I am asking here in hope there is someone who knows NFS as I get no reply in #kubuntu.
[20:09] <xperia> thesheff17: thank you a lot for your answer:
[20:09] <xperia> i just maked a ping to one of my domains where my server is running and got very high ping times of about nearly 1 Second.
[20:09] <xperia> 64 bytes from zux182-249.adsl.green.ch (<IP_ADDRESS>): icmp_req=9 ttl=64 time=0.933 ms
[20:09] <xperia> http://pastebin.com/bFS0VWMG
[20:09] <xperia> Asking me what here the Problem could be
[20:13] <thesheff17> xperia: high ping times usually means bad internet connections on one of the two sides.  Or bad routing.  You can use tracepath on linux to see where it is routing through.
[20:14] <thesheff17> xperia: also maybe slow DNS lookup.  See if you get the same ping times just pinging the IP.
[20:15] <xperia> ahh okay yes i have bind running ony my server. could be really the bind server the problem
[20:21] <qman__> your local bind is unlikely to be causing that problem
[20:22] <jmarsden> xperia: 0.933 ms is almost one millisecond, not almost one second :)
[20:23] <jmarsden> xperia: Those are fast pings not slow ones :)
[20:28] <thesheff17> xperia: yea if your dns lookup is local then that prob isn't the problem.  Try to run speed tests on both sides of the connection.
[20:29] <xperia> hmm okay 0.8 ms is sure fas i thinked it is more like 800ms but how does it looks on your side really outside of the lan ?
[20:29] <xperia> can maybe someone ping my server and say the times with
[20:29] <xperia> ping www.wificom.ch and ping <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:29] <xperia> thanks in advance for help
[20:29] <jmarsden> thesheff17: No, I think he just misread the ping output
[20:30] <RoyK> fox news ftw! http://gibboni.apcdn.com/full/38135.jpg
[20:30] <jmarsden> xperia: That is not pingable from here -- do you have it firewalled off?
[20:32] <xperia> jmarsden: hmmm will just look at it but normally at least the router should bepingable. maybe you can try port 80 ip adress <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:32] <xperia> to ping this for sure must works as it is open over the router to the server
[20:32] <jmarsden> xperia: You can't "ping" a TCP port :)  Ping uses ICMP.
[20:33] <patdk-lap> you can ping a tcp port, tcpping :)
[20:34] <xperia> ohh tcping would be great at port 80 ip adress <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:34] <xperia> or domain www.wificom.ch port 80 for testing
[20:34] <jmarsden> patdk-lap: Well... OK, but that's not really a ping according to W. Richard Stevens TCP/IP Illustrated :)
[20:35] <patdk-lap> :)
[20:35] <patdk-lap> ya, it's more of a single port, portscan
[20:37] <jmarsden> xperia: httping http://www.wificom.ch gives me lines like:    connected to www.wificom.ch:80, seq=0 time=513.75 ms
[20:38] <xperia> jmarsden: thank you really a lot. you are great. that is at least some numbers that i can work with it
[20:39] <xperia> can you maybe make same for my isp site www.green.ch to see what he has for a number to see how does it looks on his side ?
[20:39] <xperia> httping http://www.green.ch
[20:39] <xperia> 513.75 ms is quite a lot that is half second
[20:40] <thesheff17> 64 bytes from webz.agrinet.ch (<IP_ADDRESS>): icmp_req=1 ttl=244 time=136 ms
[20:40] <jmarsden> xperia: httping http://www.green.ch is a little better: connected to www.green.ch:80, seq=2 time=372.49 ms
[20:41] <jmarsden> xperia: Bear in mind this includes some response from the server, httping http://www.yahoo.com and see what you get.  Maybe 280ms or so.
[20:41] <xperia> hmmmm 100 ms faster but still a lot
[20:41] <xperia> and how does it looks for google from your side as reference
[20:41] <xperia> httping http://www.google.ch
[20:42] <thesheff17> For google I get 64 bytes from iad04s01-in-f99.1e100.net (<IP_ADDRESS>): icmp_req=1 ttl=55 time=35.8 ms
[20:43] <xperia> the sheff17 are you from swiss itself like me. you have very low numbers one time 35.8ms and other time 136ms
[20:43] <thesheff17> I'm in Chicago, IL USA
[20:44] <jmarsden> I'm getting 70ms or so to Google, from Southern California, USA.
[20:44] <thesheff17> google though may be able to do some crazy routing to the closet server.
[20:45] <thesheff17> *nearest server.
[20:45] <thesheff17> haha yea...if I use www.google.com or www.google.ch it both resolves to the same IP for me: <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:47] <xperia> thesheff17 yeah they have a lot if geoip stuff
[20:47] <xperia> i just maked this here and got shocked
[20:47] <xperia> httping www.google.ch
[20:47] <xperia> PING www.google.ch:80 (www.google.ch):
[20:47] <xperia> connected to www.google.ch:80, seq=0 time=588.58 ms
[20:48] <xperia> that is 0.5 Second for Pinging Google while you have 0.03
[20:49] <xperia> what is on my side wrong hmmm
[20:49] <xperia> let ping google itself with normal ping
[20:49] <thesheff17> try using the ip only and see if you have the same response time.
[20:49] <xperia> ping www.google.ch
[20:49] <xperia> PING www.l.google.com (<IP_ADDRESS>) 56(84) bytes of data.
[20:49] <xperia> 64 bytes from dy-in-f99.1e100.net (<IP_ADDRESS>): icmp_req=1 ttl=55 time=51.8 ms
[20:50] <xperia> so with normal ping is much better only 51ms
[20:50] <xperia> while with httping it need 500ms or better 10 times more hmmmm
[20:51] <xperia> thesheff17: pinging the ip itself gives same result as pinging the domain
[20:51] <xperia> ping <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:51] <xperia> PING <IP_ADDRESS> (<IP_ADDRESS>) 56(84) bytes of data.
[20:51] <xperia> 64 bytes from <IP_ADDRESS>: icmp_req=1 ttl=55 time=51.5 ms
[20:51] <xperia> hmmm need to find out why on your side and on my side httping is such high
[20:51] <thesheff17> mine is around double/triple when using httping gives me 117.76ms and ping gives me 36.5 ms
[20:52] <thesheff17> httping went down to around ~80.00 ms after a couple pings
[20:53] <xperia> yeah have same effect here. if i repeat the command several times it get very low. looks like some caching
[20:55] <xperia> some network analysis tool would be great which can give information if router is porblem, server is problem or ISP Connection or IP Problem
[20:56] <jmarsden> xperia: Have you tried mtr?
[20:58] <xperia> jmarsden: unfortunately no. i am total new to this kind of problems but i will just look at it. thanks a lot for the tip !
[20:58] <jmarsden> Ok, I need to go, but it might help, it is an enhanced traceroute that shows time and packet loss per hop.
[20:59] <xperia> okay thank you still for your help. saved the numbers for sure that you give me !
[21:04] <xperia> i think best is that i replace the server with a new one and remove the router and instead put the router software direct on the new Server
[21:04] <xperia> but i will need additional Ethernet Plugs where i can put then the switches for the other Computers
[21:12] <xperia> one last question. does anybody know some server dignossis script/tool that meassure diskacess performance, memory performance and such things and give some information about the server performance itself ?
[21:13] <jmarsden> sysbench, lmbench, iozone3, bonnie++ ... there are plenty of benchmarking tools around.  Try   apt-cache search benchmark
[21:15] <xperia> okay thanks jmarsden. allways a pleasure to read your very helpfull posts
[21:15] <jmarsden> xperia: You're welcome.
[21:38] <binaryhat> thesheff17, how can my server's ip address which is .107 even be able to connect to my router when iv only allocated ip addresses from .101 to .106?
[21:38] <binaryhat> it does connect
[21:39] <binaryhat> but i dont understand y
[21:39] <patdk-lap> heh?
[21:44] <qman__> if by "allocated" do you mean set the DHCP pool?
[21:44] <qman__> in any case, you're probably using a class C subnet, which means any address from .1 to .255 will work
[22:14] <binaryhat> qman__, im using a bridged connection
[22:15] <qman__> that really has no bearing on subnetting
[22:15] <binaryhat> hmm
[22:16] <qman__> bridging just means connecting the lines at layer 2 instead of routing
[22:16] <qman__> there's still a router somewhere further down the line
[22:17] <qman__> or nearer
[22:17] <ginet> i was suprised how fast ubuntu server startup after cold boot
[22:23] <qman__> hmm
[22:23] <qman__> on my file server, I've noticed the 'mkdir' command taking a very long time
[22:26] <qman__> creating, moving, and copying file is no problem, just mkdir
[22:26] <binaryhat> but what i cant figure out is how my guest VM can see 1 network PC even tho the .xml file for the machine has interface type='network'
[22:27] <binaryhat> not  <interface type='bridge'>    <source bridge='br0'/>
[23:04] <binaryhat> finally
[23:30] <thesheff17> binaryhat: just got home...did it work?
[23:31] <thesheff17> binaryhat: usually most networks are subnet mask <IP_ADDRESS> which means anything from <IP_ADDRESS> to <IP_ADDRESS> should be able be on the same network.
[23:31] <thesheff17> binaryhat: and able to talk to each other.
[23:32] <thesheff17> binaryhat: your DHCP range is usually a subset of that so usually <IP_ADDRESS>-<IP_ADDRESS> is setup for DHCP.
[23:51] <quizme> is there any good reason to upgrade from 10.04 to 10.10 ?


[06:49] <havok> I'm trying to get access to my Windows files, but I can't ind them. Is using them not possible with the WUBI install of 12.10?
[06:54] <ttoti> the directory is /host
[06:58] <havok> Ok, thanks!
[10:52] <havok> Hey, I have installed Wine and PlayOnlinux through the Software Center, and I have a WoW installation on my Windows partition. What's my next step?
[10:55] <geirha> Well, in a terminal, the following should "work"    cd /path/to/where/wow/is/installed; wine wow
[10:56] <geirha> Though you might need to configure wow differently for running via wine
[10:57] <geirha> So it might be a good idea to make a copy of the wow dir, make changes, then run from there.
[10:57] <geirha> For one, you may need to switch from using directx to using opengl, since directx support in wine is incomplete
[10:59] <havok> OK, so step one is to make a copy of WoW over on my Linux partition?
[11:02] <geirha> I'd do that, at least if you intend to go back to windows and run it from there at some point
[11:03] <havok> I would like to keep it running, yes. I'm not sure I have the space for it- the WUBI installer only allowed e to allocate 30GB for Ubuntu.
[11:04] <havok> And WoW is 25 GB :/
[11:04] <geirha> Then put the copy on one of your windows partitions
[11:04] <havok> Oh
[11:04] <havok> !
[11:04] <geirha> You could probably get around it by symlinking it up, but I haven't tried that
[11:05] <geirha> i.e. symlink all files and directories in the wow tree, except the config file(s)
[11:06] <havok> OK, it's copying over now, though it may take a while...
[11:08] <geirha> When you get to the point where you can try running it (and it fails, or doesn't work optimally), see http://www.wowwiki.com/Wine_troubleshooting
[11:11] <havok> Well, I saw that, and a couple more online guides to installing, but that's not really the problem- The problem is that I have NO experience with this and on't know where to start.
[11:19] <theprogrammer>  does anyone have idea where is the keybinding config file for a user in ubuntu
[11:37] <geirha> havok: I'm not really that much help either. It's a long time since I played wow now. You might have more luck in #winehq
[11:38] <geirha> theprogrammer: you assume it's a file
[11:38] <geirha> Also, keybinding is a bit vague, there are somewhat different types of key bindings.
[11:39] <geirha> i.e. there's one that says hitting the "Shift" and "S" keys on the keyboard, should produce an uppercase "S"
[11:40] <geirha> Then there's the type that says ctrl+alt+t should start a terminal
[11:43] <havok> geirha: Within this server(ubuntu) So I can just /join winehq   ?
[11:43] <geirha> /join #winehq  in your irc client, yes
[11:47] <havok> OK, thanks!
[11:49] <theprogrammer> geirha: its user specific so i assumed it to be a file. is it something else?
[11:50] <geirha> theprogrammer: which?
[11:51] <geirha> gnome's bindings are likely stored in gconf or dconf
[11:53] <theprogrammer> my problem is that keyboard shortcuts are not working for the current user
[11:59] <theprogrammer> geirha: thanks, found it in dconf editor, the problem was media keys were not marked active
[18:15] <bobka> hi
[18:25] <bobka> I'm installing server 12.04 LTS. I have the non-free driver I need (rt73.bin) on a usb stick as installation requests. But is refused. Many ideas later, I ask should I copy the driver from Bus 001 Device 009 ID 0930:6533 to /lib/firmware, and go back to detect network? If so, how? : )
[18:28] <bobka> That is where do I find or how do I mount the usb device?
[18:28] <Unit193> rt73 should be installed by default, and lsusb to find devices, if you were asking about htat.
[18:29] <bobka> rt73.bin is "non-free" and is not in /lib/firmware on LTS
[18:31] <bobka> I have the lsusb Bus 001 Device 009 ID 0930:6533 but how do i mount that?
[19:23] <bobka> I'm installing server 12.04 LTS. I have the non-free driver I need (rt73.bin) on a usb stick as installation requests. But installation doesn't proceed: mount: mounting /dev/sda on /media failed. Invalid argument. And later; { phy0 -> rt2x00lib_request_firmware: Error - Failed to request Firmware. }  Many t&e later, I ask should I copy the driver from usb stick to /lib/firmware, and go back to "detect network hardware"? If yes
[19:43] <bobka> Hi, how to mount usb thumbdrive to /media?
[20:42] <bobka> hi, having trouble mounting a pendrive during installation. lsusb finds it, but I can't find it mount it or to check the file.


[02:55] <lifeless> dynamic port allocation \o/
[03:21] <nigelb> lifeless: You aren't in Dublin?
[03:23] <lifeless> nope
[03:24] <nigelb> Ah.
[04:18] <lifeless> grah
[04:19] <lifeless> and it has no setup.py etc
[04:19] <lifeless> I think I'll extract code from LP
[06:49] <nigelb> lifeless: any specific reason you picked web.py?
[06:50] <lifeless> it wasn't zope, it wasn't django, and it is in lucid
[06:51] <nigelb> heh
[06:51] <nigelb> I meant among the other microframeworks
[06:51] <lifeless> so do I
[06:51] <nigelb> ah, in lucid.
[06:51] <lifeless> another option would be pastedeploy
[06:52] <lifeless> but its possibly so minimal as to not be a framework anymore
[06:52] <nigelb> Never heard of it. ::looks::
[09:36] <bac> lifeless: ping
[09:37] <lifeless> hi bac
[09:37] <bac> lifeless: abentley is trying to skype you so you can participate
[09:38] <bac> ah, nm, i hear martin connected
[09:38] <lifeless> I will irc if I have stuff to interject
[09:40] <lifeless> iron stomach, no seasickness
[09:40] <lifeless> someone tell them not to fuss to much :)
[09:40] <lifeless> I see a long corridor between people at tables
[09:40] <jcsackett> lifeless: they seem to be enjoying it; we would hate to stop their fun.
[09:40] <StevenK> It's a room!
[09:40] <lifeless> hi
[09:41] <lifeless> yes I hear you
[09:45] <lifeless> 'I can see you alll... muahhahahahahaha'
[09:46] <vila> :)
[09:46] <jml> lifeless: watching here in case you want to interject. use my nick.
[09:46] <lifeless> jml: thanks
[09:50] <lifeless> jml: looking at the room is cute; looking at the slides might be better ?
[09:50] <jml> lifeless: ok.
[09:50] <lifeless> jml: thanks
[09:51] <jml> lifeless: np. is that an ok view? (I'm not very close to your laptop)
[09:51] <lifeless> its fine
[09:52] <jml> cool.
[09:57] <lifeless> jml: at a convenient point please note 'if we are willing to spend more time on db patches, we have stakeholder goahead to make db patches go live 24 hours after landing'
[10:03] <lifeless> jml: we now have a lot of infrastructure/db work to do to to solve timeouts
[10:08] <lifeless> http://boom.cs.berkeley.edu/ is interesting (and totally unrelated to the talk going on :))
[10:17] <lifeless> jml: whats thing flacoste is saying - I can't make out the noun
[10:17] <jml> lifeless: talking about using cloud stuff, incl ensemble, for developing Launchpad
[10:18] <lifeless> ah
[10:19] <wgrant> lifeless: Any reason we shouldn't deploy today?
[10:20] <jml> one thing, not worthy of interjecting, is that anything that makes it harder for new contributors also probably makes it harder for established developers on a day-to-day basis
[10:20] <jml> e.g. imagine if we could spin up a build farm with ten machines locally using LXC
[10:20] <jml> with one command
[10:21] <lifeless> I think for adhoc stuff like that, ensemble may be a wonderful fit
[10:21] <jml> yeah, me too
[10:21] <StevenK> wgrant: Fixed.
[10:21] <wgrant> StevenK: Thankyou sir.
[10:21] <wgrant> Now I need to find wallyworld.
[10:21] <StevenK> He's behind you!
[10:22] <lifeless> jml: for the unit test suite, things like lxc (alone, nevermind layers on top of) seem to be much slower than I would like to aim at
[10:22] <jml> lifeless: interesting.
[10:25] <jml> lifeless: do you want to watch benji's talk?
[10:26] <lifeless> jml: coffeescript?
[10:26] <lifeless> no; its pretty cool stuff though.
[10:26] <lifeless> but I have stuff I need to go do.
[10:26] <jml> lifeless: ok. thanks.
[10:41] <lifeless> have a great day guys; I'm signing off.
[10:46] <lifeless> bigjools: btw, I think bug 802335 is a side effect of the new packagecopyjob table
[10:46] <_mup_> Bug #802335: DistroSeries:+queue timeouts when filtering by package name <regression> <timeout> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/802335 >
[10:47] <lifeless> bigjools: I can't talk now, but perhaps we can make 5 minutes tomorrow - *if* it is the new table, I raised the impact it would have on +queue during review - I'd like to drill into how we let this through
[10:47] <lifeless> bigjools: (I'm mentioning it now so you aren't surprised when I try to grab you tomorrow to talk about it :))
[10:48] <bigjools> lifeless: jtv changed the query significantly so grab him :)
[10:48] <bigjools> but happy to talk if you want
[10:58] <Ursinha> danilos: salinas, right?
[12:18] <NCommander> StevenK: pinbg where are you?
[12:24] <jml> lifeless: if you're around... where are the architecture values that were in your talk?
[12:26] <jml> lifeless: never mind.
 is what I was actually looking for
[12:28] <jml> since any long poll stuff we do has to comply with all of that.
[12:30] <StevenK> NCommander: I am on level 1. What's up?
[12:31] <poolie> spiv, danilos, jelmer, jtv, https://dev.launchpad.net/Projects/LiveBranches#preview
[12:50] <NCommander> StevenK: infinity found my issue (LP gave a non-helpful error message on a reject)
[12:50] <StevenK> NCommander: How unhelpful?
[12:54] <NCommander> StevenK: I did an upload to oneiric which was rejected due to a -20 existing in proposed, it complained my tarball was wrong (checksum mismatch)
[12:54] <StevenK> NCommander: Right, that isn't unhelpful. :-P
[13:35] <LPCIBot> Project devel build #840: FAILURE in 23 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/devel/840/
[13:36] <StevenK> Hmmm
[13:36]  * StevenK pokes at Jenkins
[13:37] <StevenK> Ah ha. Gary broke it.
[14:03] <LPCIBot> Yippie, build fixed!
[14:03] <LPCIBot> Project db-devel build #671: FIXED in 5 hr 51 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/db-devel/671/
[14:24] <jml> gmb, wgrant: http://paste.ubuntu.com/633629/
[14:25] <jml> bigjools: ^^
[14:25] <jml> storm, transaction, twisted
[14:25] <jml> txamqp
[14:26] <jml> zope.component, zope.schema, zope.interface, zope.configuration
[14:34] <jml> huwshimi: are you near deryck?
[14:35] <huwshimi> jml: I think he's about 5 metres away
[14:35] <huwshimi> jml: Certainly within throwing distance
[14:35] <jml> huwshimi: what about gary?
[14:36] <huwshimi> jml: An equal distance away
[14:36] <wgrant> Neither is on IRC :(
[14:36] <jml> huwshimi: excellent. the build is broken, and gary broke it
[14:36] <wgrant> But gary broke devel, somehow.. and it corrupts
[14:36] <StevenK> I have landed a revert
[14:36] <wgrant> corrupts the setuptools egg.
[14:37] <wgrant> buildbot is probably still broken.
[14:37] <wgrant> Because its egg is broken.
[14:37] <huwshimi> jml: Do you need me to throw something?
[14:37] <StevenK> jml: I am sitting next to deryck
[14:38] <jml> StevenK: please ask gary to fix it :)
[14:38] <StevenK> jml: Both flacoste and gary are working on it right now.
[14:38] <jml> sweet.
[14:38] <jml> StevenK: thanks.
[14:39] <flacoste> jml: we need to remove eggs/setuptools*
[14:39] <flacoste> because distribute is evil
[14:39] <flacoste> really evil
[14:40] <flacoste> most evil force in the universe
[14:53] <Ursinha> haha
[14:54] <Ursinha> matsubara: do you know if soybean oopses are synced to devpad every 10 minutes or once a day?
[14:55] <matsubara> Ursinha, I think it's every hour now for all oopses
[14:55] <Ursinha> oh
[14:55] <Ursinha> that's bad
[15:06] <jml> gmb: dependencies: storm, transaction, twisted, txamqp, zope.component, zope.schema, zope.interface, zope.configuration
[15:13] <jml> stub: http://as.ynchrono.us/2007/12/filesystem-structure-of-python-project_21.html (fwiw)
[15:19] <jml> bigjools: http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/core/howto/tap.html
[15:52] <allenap> wgrant, jml, stub: http://paste.ubuntu.com/633675/
[15:53] <wgrant> allenap: You are a horrible person.
[15:54] <allenap> wgrant: Thank you :)
[15:54] <StevenK> Haha
[16:00] <StevenK> abentley: O hai.
[16:00] <abentley> StevenK: Hai.
[16:01] <StevenK> abentley: Do you remember what the JS that is loaded after page load on projectseries/+setbranch does?
[16:02] <nigelb> Is it known that on the branch page, if I click diff, I see the diff. After that the links are no longer "clickable"
[16:02] <abentley> StevenK: Nothing is coming to mind.
[16:06] <jml> wgrant: http://www.cs.yale.edu/quotes.html
[16:26] <jml> bigjools: http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/core/howto/application.html
[16:45] <huwshimi> jcsackett: http://gfxmonk.net/shellshape/
[16:47] <nhandler> Is https://help.launchpad.net/API/SigningRequests outdated? I keep getting an error saying oath is an unsupported authentication method when I attempt to post to /+request-token
[16:51] <wgrant> huwshimi: Huh, I know him.
[16:51] <wgrant> From uni.
[16:52] <huwshimi> wgrant: Oh right
[16:56] <wgrant> Oddity.
[17:01] <poolie> nhandler: nb it's oauth not oath
[17:01] <poolie> they are both authentication mechanisms
[17:03] <nhandler> Bleh. Thanks poolie. I really shouldn't code before fully awake :)
[17:05] <poolie> not the best naming system in the world
[17:16] <jcsackett> bac: do you know if bug 705153 is still valid? it looks to me like the hover over data on subscribers has been removed outright, which might make this [wontfix|fixreleased].
[17:17] <_mup_> Bug #705153: "Subscribed by" hover is incorrect <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/705153 >
[17:19] <bac> jcsackett: you are correct.  i've marked it invalid
[17:48] <spiv> wgrant: here's some  loggerhead code you may like:
[17:48] <spiv> def dq(p):
[17:48] <spiv>     return urllib.quote(urllib.quote(p, safe=''))
[17:56] <wgrant> spiv: Burn
[18:02]  * maxb chuckles
[18:43] <nhandler> Any ideas why I get a 'Missing Authenticate Header' client-warning in my script (OOPS-2004STAGING186) ? I have an Authroization header that follows the documentation (I already followed the guide to get a request token and then an access token)
[19:54] <Auree> Hi, I couldn't find it in the documentation, what is the limit for client applications to the Launchpad API?
[20:02] <LPCIBot> Project parallel-test build #75: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 19 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/parallel-test/75/
[20:47] <LPCIBot> Yippie, build fixed!
[20:47] <LPCIBot> Project devel build #841: FIXED in 5 hr 49 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/devel/841/
[21:09] <lifeless> moin
[21:10] <stub> yo
[21:10] <stub> think most people are at dinner
[21:10] <lifeless> cool
[21:12] <lifeless> how was the day?
[21:13] <stub> Seemed to go ok. Getting some traction on rabbit.
[21:14] <stub> Catching up from last week too.
[21:14] <stub> Not sure how the other groups fared
[21:15] <lifeless> I haven't filed bugs for the fast-downtime stuff yet
[21:16] <lifeless> james_w: speaking of which; ping
[21:16] <lifeless> stub: I will file a few today and assign to you so you can see them; they don't have to be worked on this week - do stuff with the folk there; (but if you do work on it its pretty exciting stuff :P).
[21:17] <timrc> wgrant, lifeless, jcsackett: thank you guys for such a quick turnaround time on our api enablement requests, greatly appreciated
[21:28] <james_w> lifeless, hi
[21:28] <lifeless> james_w: I don't recall hearing back from linaro on stakeholders about db schema downtime
[21:29] <james_w> lifeless, I haven't heard anything, I'll prod, but otherwise we can take it as "silence is agreement" and move ahead
[21:29] <lifeless> thanks
[22:49] <wgrant> lifeless: You may have seen the rabbit layer land.
[22:49] <wgrant> lifeless: We sorted out the failures.
[22:49] <lifeless> great
[22:49] <lifeless> what were they ?
[22:49] <wgrant> And ripped canonical.amqp out of landscape, into lazr.amqp
[22:49] <wgrant> Well.
[22:50] <wgrant> The problem was the config overlay is just about impossible to remove.
[22:50] <wgrant> Since it's written to disk.
[22:50] <wgrant> So we just made the layer unteardownable.
[22:50] <lifeless> that reminds me, I needed to talk with flacoste about lazr :P
[22:50] <wgrant> We didn't want to call it lazr, but it was easiest for now.
[22:50] <lifeless> wgrant: what did you want to call it ?
[22:50] <wgrant> No ide.
[22:50] <wgrant> idea
[22:50] <wgrant> Which is why it's lazr.
[22:51] <wgrant> It also currently uses the system rabbit for tests :(
[22:51] <lifeless> wgrant: unteardown makes me sad; we use config overlays on disk for librarian too, why is that different ?
[22:51] <wgrant> But I've ported it mostly to the fixture.
[22:51] <lifeless> and db
[22:51] <wgrant> lifeless: I don't quite recall.
[22:51] <wgrant> lifeless: But the tests want the config overlay to be absent.
[22:51] <lifeless> could someone file a bug? low tech-debt
[22:52] <wgrant> I suspect the librarian/db tests do not.
[22:52] <wgrant> eg. the librarian hiding thing just sets a bogus port.
[22:52] <wgrant> Also, how do I make efficient use of a fixture?
[22:52] <wgrant> ie. use .reset() between tests?
[22:52] <wgrant> Rather than restarting rabbit each time.
[22:52] <wgrant> Which is slow.
[22:53] <wgrant> (this is in lazr.amqp, so no layer)
[22:58] <jml> also
[22:58] <jml> stub was saying that zope now has a way to tear down the functional layer
[22:58] <wgrant> Yeah.
[22:58] <wgrant> We should be able to.
[22:58] <wgrant> But lazr.config needs some wrangling before we can do it for everything.
[22:58] <jml> if we get rid of that, the new unteardownable thing and wgrant gets his question answered, we could stop using layers
[22:58] <wgrant> Yay
[22:58] <wgrant> BURN
[22:58] <wgrant> etc.
[22:58] <jml> that's three things that are non-trivial before we get to do the thing we actually want to do, which is also non-trivial :)
[23:00] <lifeless> jml: there is a zope.testing.functional or something which now has a tearDown
[23:00] <lifeless> we need to test using it
[23:00] <lifeless> I don't knove if the CA has a teardown yet
[23:00] <lifeless> wgrant: .reset() exists for use between tests, yes.
[23:00] <jml> you could probably hack one up
[23:00] <wgrant> lifeless: But how do I use it?
[23:00] <jml> replace globalregistry with a new one
[23:01] <jml> wgrant: aye, and therein lies the rub
[23:01] <lifeless> wgrant: you use the unwritten testfixtures optimiser code
[23:01] <lifeless> wgrant: -or-
[23:01] <lifeless> wgrant: and I recommend this, use testresources and write a -very- shallow thunk from a ResourceManager to the fixture.
[23:02] <wgrant> Hmm. Perhaps.
[23:02] <wgrant> Thanks.
[23:02] <jml> if it's run with zope testrunner, that won't help though
[23:03] <wgrant> It is the zope testrunner at present :(
[23:03] <lifeless> if its run with zope testrunner you can use a layer
[23:03] <wgrant> True.
[23:03] <wgrant> But it also workswith trial, which I don't reallly want to break.
[23:03] <lifeless> when you said foo so no layer, I assumed a good testrunner
[23:03] <lifeless> wgrant: choose.
[23:03] <wgrant> So there's no cross-runner compatible way to do it?
[23:03] <wgrant> Sad.
[23:03] <lifeless> wgrant: there is, if you fix zope testrunner to not destroy test suites
[23:04] <lifeless> e.g. make it compatible
[23:04] <wgrant> lolz
[23:04] <lifeless> FWIW, I'd do the following:
[23:04] <lifeless>  - make testr the primary runner for it (implies trial compat)
[23:04] <lifeless>  - use testresources
[23:04] <lifeless>  - profit
[23:05] <wgrant> Possibly.
[23:06] <lifeless> you can use trial --reporter=subunit
[23:06] <wgrant> We're using zope.testrunner now because it was easy with buildout, but I gues we can just use testr with something.
[23:06] <wgrant> Aha.
[23:06] <wgrant> Handy.
[23:06] <lifeless> it doesn't have load-by-id for broken-test-iterations or parallel support
[23:06] <wgrant> :(
[23:06] <lifeless> but if you use jmls' most excellent twisted support in *testtools*
[23:06] <wgrant> Asny suggestions for something better?
[23:06] <wgrant> Ah.
[23:07] <lifeless> then you're sitting pretty
[23:07] <wgrant> I looked at that, but it said it was highly experimental and not to be used.
[23:07] <lifeless> lies
[23:07] <lifeless> we use it in Launchpad
[23:07] <lifeless> its more 'subject to change'
[23:07] <wgrant> Ah.
[23:07] <lifeless> wgrant: jml: I'm glad you guys are hacking on this.
[23:08] <wgrant> "testtools provides highly experimental support for running Twisted tests – tests that return a Deferred and rely on the Twisted reactor. You should not use this feature right now. We reserve the right to change the API and behaviour without telling you first."
[23:08] <wgrant> But I guess if you and jml tell me otherwise...
[23:08] <lifeless> wgrant: so what does lazr.amqp do?
[23:08] <jml> wgrant: we use it consistently in Launchpad
[23:09] <lifeless> wgrant: is it landscapes long poll service?
[23:09] <lifeless> wgrant: or just glue code?
[23:09] <wgrant> lifeless: Mostly a Twisted HTTP server for rabbit-based long-polling, yes.
[23:09] <wgrant> It also has a rabbit job runner.
[23:09] <lifeless> so, I think the name is totally misleading
[23:09] <lifeless> lazr.longpoll perhaps
[23:09] <wgrant> Possibly.
[23:09] <jml> it's actually more "I don't want people to complain too much if it's broken"
[23:09] <wgrant> The name is not really defined.
[23:10] <jml> txlongpoll?
[23:10] <wgrant> It was canonical.amqp, and Julian JFDI.
[23:10] <lifeless> jml: +1
[23:10] <lifeless> jml: that would be so much better
[23:10] <jml> lifeless: our main aim is to get something working end-to-end
[23:10] <lifeless> sure, cool
[23:10] <wgrant> It's not *just* long polling, as it turns out.
[23:10] <lifeless> so the reason I asked
[23:10] <wgrant> But that's one of its modules.
[23:11] <jml> lifeless: I'm very much in favour of a better name, but will only change it if I'm confident that we'll have something demonstrably functional before EOW
[23:11] <jml> (of course anyone else can change it)
[23:12] <lifeless> so, you've seen ServicesRequirements
[23:12] <jml> fwiw, I am pretty confident :)
[23:12] <lifeless> I want to highlight a couple of the implications there
[23:12] <jml> lifeless: yes, https://dev.launchpad.net/Projects/LongPollNotes links to it
[23:12] <lifeless> we shouldn't be importing *any* of the code in this project into LP itself.
[23:13] <jml> lifeless: how is that implied?
[23:13] <lifeless> https://dev.launchpad.net/ArchitectureGuide/ServicesRequirements#Test fake
[23:13] <lifeless> its not mandatory [yet]
[23:13] <lifeless> it will be soon
[23:13] <jml> ahh good. NTH.
[23:13] <lifeless> NTH ?
[23:13] <jml> and also something that can be fixed late
[23:14] <lifeless> so when I say test fake
[23:14] <jml> lifeless: nice-to-have. sorry, it turns up a lot in my notes for things.
[23:14] <lifeless> I mean 'live network service that is -fast- to startup, uses dynamic allocated ports and supports error injection
[23:14] <lifeless> I specifically do not want in-process fakes
[23:15] <lifeless> because they increase coupling and tighten version dependencies
[23:17] <jml> lifeless: why do you object to the package having its own client code & test double?
[23:18] <lifeless> I want to thoroughly decouple things
[23:19] <lifeless> we're going to be deploying entirely separately
[23:19] <lifeless> if its physically impossible to do a lockstep change to the client and server
[23:19] <lifeless> I think it will really help people avoid such disasterous changes
[23:19] <lifeless> it also works better when we rewrite a service to be in a faster language
[23:20] <lifeless> and avoids fugly around needing N clients (one for tx, one for python, one for javascript) in the same tree - or alternatively inconsistently blessing one as 'this one is in-tree, the others are not'
[23:21] <lifeless> thats the angle for client code
[23:21] <lifeless> for test double, I *do* want the service to provide its own test double.
[23:21] <mwhudson> lifeless, jml: did you know that the django test runner manages to be EVEN MORE terrible than the zope one?
[23:21] <lifeless> I just want that to be an actual network service
[23:21] <lifeless> mwhudson: thats quite an achievement
[23:21] <jml> mwhudson: no, I didn't.
[23:21] <jml> mwhudson: I didn't even know it *had* its own test runner
[23:21] <wgrant> Django manages to be pretty terrible.
[23:21] <jml> lifeless: you don't mind having multiple language implementations for a protocol in one tree :P
[23:21] <wgrant> Without the few redeeming qualities that Zope has.
[23:22] <mwhudson> lifeless: it rips apart testsuites in the same way zope's does, and has database management baked into the runner directly
[23:22] <jml> eww
[23:23] <lifeless> jml: I don't, but its been pretty awkward
[23:23] <mwhudson> i may try to convince them this is a bad idea
[23:23]  * jml nods
[23:23] <lifeless> jml: and I'm a bottleneck on changes in that project, something I want to structurally avoid for our services
[23:23] <jml> lifeless: ok. I think that's fair enough.
[23:24] <lifeless> jml: another facet here
[23:24] <lifeless> jml: we're aiming for 'crisp, clean and strongly defined layers'
[23:25] <jml> lifeless: the main thing *I* want to avoid is perfect defeating good. Would rather work towards correctness from a starting point of functionality than from where we are now.
[23:25] <lifeless> jml: anything whose contract is in python is pretty poor at that :)
[23:25] <jml> lifeless: good point.
[23:25] <lifeless> jml: have you looked at my draft microservice for gpg signature checking ?
[23:26] <jml> lifeless: no, but your email about it is flagged for reading
[23:26] <lifeless> jml: I don't mind the path taken to reach correctness! I mentioned these things so you know where I want us to aim.
[23:26] <jml> lifeless: cool.
[23:26] <lifeless> jml: I *do* mind if we try to go live with something without either reaching these things or having and explicit ack from me to waive them in this case.
[23:27] <lifeless> jml: the point about importing stuff, is that if the rabbit fixture is moved into this other-server-tree, it becomes unusable by Launchpad
[23:28] <jml> multiplying tiny projects :(
[23:28] <lifeless> yes
[23:28] <lifeless> so we put them all in ~launchpad/+junk
[23:28] <lifeless> this is something LP needs to be much better at
[23:28] <jml> well, LP doesn't even begin to help you answer the question "how the hell do I land stuff on this project"
[23:29] <jml> lifeless: I think the 'not importing' requirement should be made explicit in that doc, btw.
[23:30] <lifeless> wgrant: if there is more than long polling in the tree, exercise rm :)
[23:30] <wgrant> lifeless: s/rm/split/, I suspect.
[23:31] <wgrant> lifeless: We need to analyse tomorrow.
[23:31] <lifeless> wgrant: sure
[23:31] <lifeless> jml: I will transscribe this discussion in some form today
[23:31] <wgrant> I didn't look at the code until I was somewhat impaired.
[23:31] <lifeless> jml: after I get my slides ready
[23:31] <wgrant> Today was just spent getting it working.
[23:31] <jml> lifeless: thanks.
[23:32] <lifeless> jml: I am open to negotation on everything, but I think I have a cohesive story with interlocking supports
[23:33] <jml> wgrant: and, (I do hate sounding like a broken record here), it's not actually working yet, insofar as it isn't doing what we want.
[23:33] <wgrant> jml: Sure.
[23:34] <wgrant> Getting it working, not succeeding in that endeavour :)
[23:34] <jml> :)
[23:42] <jml> I'm off to catch some Zs
[23:42] <jml> g'night.