[00:14] <chilts> hmmm ... not sure this is true yet : https://twitter.com/#!/packetslave/status/124270413927809024
[00:14] <chilts> but sad if it is
[00:15] <ojwb> steve jobs has died?
[00:15] <ojwb> too soon?
[00:17] <ojwb> ah, yes - sad indeed
[00:17] <ojwb> that took forever to load
[00:17] <ajmitch> it's twitter, it's usually slow to load
[00:17]  * ojwb wonders how much data twitter pushes at you to send you 140 characters of "useful" info
[00:18] <chilts> yeah, load a skeleton page, then a tonne of JavaScript, then the real page
[00:18] <chilts> I assume
[00:19] <ojwb> and the pointless use of #! doesn't help
[00:21] <chilts> one of your bugbears in life :)
[00:21] <ojwb> yep
[01:12] <chilts> yeah, it's real - https://plus.google.com/101960720994009339267/posts
[01:15] <ajmitch> but I guess that it won't make the news quite as much as steve jobs did
[01:15] <ojwb> slick presentation beats useful content
[01:15] <chilts> yeah, that's sad ... he changed far more lives (for the better) than Jobs did, yet he'll get very little news
[01:16] <chilts> one helped create somethig really useful, the other used much of it for his own gain ... yet it's the latter that'll get more good press
[01:17] <ajmitch> of course, he was far more visible
[01:18] <ojwb> dennis ritchie used an ipod for his own gain?
[01:19] <chilts> because he made far more money I assume
[01:19] <chilts> ojwb: volumne gain maybe :)
[01:19] <chilts> s/volumne/volume/
[01:38] <ajmitch> elky: I don't know why I go in that channel every 6 months...
[01:39] <elky> ajmitch, it's called masochism.
[01:39] <ajmitch> must be
[01:40] <ajmitch> like watching a car crash in slow motion
[01:40] <elky> One does need to remember that having that channel there keeps the majority of flaming turd out of the main channels.
[01:40] <ajmitch> true
[01:40] <ajmitch> I also avoid #ubuntu though
[01:40] <elky> Which, really, is it's primary purpose.
[01:41] <elky> Yeah, the channels are not what they used to be.
[01:41] <ajmitch> that's sort of expected, ubuntu's not what it was 4 or 5 years ago
[01:41] <elky> I'm still waiting for the day I snap and swear off the entire internet based on the ubuntu irc namespace.
[01:42] <ajmitch> it's not so bad if you don't deal with users :)
[01:42] <elky> In theory.
[01:44]  * ajmitch shall probably be asleep at the time that 11.10 is released, and won't really care either way
[01:50] <mwhudson> ajmitch: #u-r-p?
[01:50] <ajmitch> yeah
[01:51] <ojwb> #ubuntu-release-patiently?
[01:52] <ajmitch> -party
[01:53] <mwhudson> i loiter, but try not to read :-)
[01:53] <ojwb> presumably more like -impatiently
[01:53] <ajmitch> ojwb: the most common question being "is it out yet?"
[01:53] <ojwb> oo err
[01:53] <ajmitch> & then various people ranting on about politics
[01:54] <ojwb> this is the only ubuntu channel i spend more than the minimum time required in
[01:55] <ajmitch> #debian-devel is so much more fun? :)
[01:55] <chilts> I saw the Ubuntu Monospace font on Google Web Fonts the other day .. I thought it was only for certain people who had registered their interest :)
[01:55] <chilts> I guess someone leaked it
[01:55] <ajmitch> chilts: no, released rather than leaked
[01:55] <chilts> ah, ok, that's good news
[01:55] <chilts> I'll go and get it :)
[01:57] <ajmitch> font.ubuntu.com looks to be the place for it
[01:57] <ajmitch> & it's in oneiric from the look of things
[02:01] <hads> I think I'm actually intersted in grabbing the image this time. Someone gave me a laptop two days ago to install Ubuntu on. Was going to use Natty but I guess I'll use Oneiric now.
[02:01] <elky> ajmitch, heh
[02:01] <ajmitch> elky: hm? :)
[02:01] <elky> flee
[02:02] <ajmitch> yeah I gave up
[02:03] <ojwb> ajmitch: well, sometimes that's kind of depressing too, but in different ways
[02:04] <ajmitch> usually the smaller team channels are more fun, when you get to know the people
[02:14] <elky> Depends which team.
[02:15] <chilts> Ubuntu Monospace in Emacs compared to what I've had for years (new one at top) : http://f.dollyfish.net.nz/ac5e3b
[02:15] <chilts> looks quite nice, though I'll have to turn it on by default to get used to it
[02:15] <ajmitch> chilts: you've been using a nasty looking font for awhile :)
[02:16] <chilts> yeah
[02:16] <ajmitch> :family "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono"
[02:16] <chilts> though I've been so used to it, I've never switched
[02:16] <ajmitch> looks like that's what I have set up
[02:16] <chilts> nah, I'll just use this Ubuntu Mono one :)
[02:18] <chilts> now I need to get it into my terminal!
[02:18]  * ajmitch uses gnome-terminal, probably too used to the default font to switch
[02:18] <chilts> I use (u)rxvt, so I'm sure I can switch it
[02:19] <ajmitch> I just have to discover where to change the default font in oneiric :)
[02:19] <chilts> I don't use Gnome (as you can see from the screenshot) :)
[02:20] <ajmitch> I'm using a pretty default setup with unity
[02:20] <chilts> so I need to figure it out for X I think ... I've tried .Xdefaults but not sure that's the right place
[02:21] <ajmitch> font configuration looks to have been hidden away in oneiric, probably too complicated for people to handle
[02:22] <ojwb> chilts: is the lower on GNU unifont?
[02:22] <ojwb> lower one
[02:22] <chilts> dunno, let me check : this is from my .emacs -> (set-default-font "-misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--13-100-100-100-c-70-iso8859-1")
[02:22] <chilts> so who knows
[02:23] <chilts> now reads : (set-default-font "-misc-Ubuntu Mono-medium-r-normal--13-100-100-100-c-70-iso8859-1")
[02:23] <chilts> so the chars are the same size and therefore so my windows are the same width for 80 or 120 char columns :D
[02:25] <ojwb> it's not unifont (the bottom of the y curls up on yours) but it's very similar in look
[02:25] <ojwb> http://unifoundry.com/bmp-ref/uni00.bmp
[17:48] <Atamira> Morning all
[18:31] <ajmitch> morning
[18:47] <chilts> morning
[18:58] <ibeardslee> morning
[19:03] <ibeardslee> sigh
[19:24] <ajmitch> so everyone's upgraded to 11.10 by now?
[19:38] <ibeardslee> well not the final release
[19:38] <ibeardslee> unless there have been no changes since the last update a couple of days ago
[19:42] <ajmitch> the majority of the changes are going into oneiric-proposed, the others that went into the release look to mostly be installer-related
[19:42] <mwhudson> morning
[19:42] <mwhudson> i guess i should upgrade then...
[19:44] <ibeardslee> dooo eeet
[19:44] <ajmitch> mwhudson: I thought you'd have upgraded at beta
[19:45] <mwhudson> ajmitch: the policy of 'canonical people upgrade at beta' seems to have softened of late
[19:45] <mwhudson> and i somehow never got around to it...
[19:46] <ibeardslee> I had some fun yesterday before leaving late from work
[19:46] <ajmitch> mwhudson: oh well, something to do over the weekend when you're not needing your laptop for work :)
[19:46] <ibeardslee> tried to get rid of the need to click and drag rather than click and click
[19:59] <chilts> so are people working in Canonical expected to upgrade with each release?
[19:59]  * chilts is still on LTS and will wait for the next LTS :)
[20:00] <mwhudson> chilts: yes, definitely
[20:01] <chilts> I guess it helps find bugs too
[20:01] <ajmitch> next LTS in 6 months, but I suspect that upgrade notification  from 10.04 might show up by 12.04.1
[20:04] <chilts> yeah
[20:04] <mwhudson> "about 4 days 19 hours remaining"
[20:04] <mwhudson> hmm
[20:04] <chilts> oh, and to those who chatted about the Ubuntu Mono font with me yesterday, Emacs and my Terminal are now using it ... I'm already used to it and my eyes are liking it very much
[20:04] <chilts> it's very clean and crisp
[20:05] <chilts> love it in fact
[20:05] <mwhudson> i guess i've never upgraded the day after release before
[20:05] <hads> Grabbed the ISO before I went to bed last night. Am about to do an install on a friends laptop.
[20:06] <ajmitch> from what I saw, nz2.archive.ubuntu.com no longer points to mirror.ihug.co.nz since it was too broken
[20:06]  * ajmitch did manage to track down the mirror admin & he said he'd look at it today though
[20:25] <lifeless> mwhudson: tsk ;)
[20:47] <mwhudson> hey maybe pulseaudio will stop segfaulting in oneiric
[21:33] <lifeless> hahhahahahahahahahahahahhaha
[21:34] <ajmitch> lifeless: you seem to have some doubts about that?
[21:35] <lifeless> ajmitch: pulseaudio is special
[21:35] <ajmitch> oh very special indeed
[21:35] <ajmitch> I've frequently had to kill it to get sound back
[21:36] <mwhudson> i wonder if i would be less uneasy about systemd if I didn't know the same guy started pulseaudio
[21:36] <ajmitch> but systemd is awesome & cool & bugfree
[21:37] <mwhudson> (it's a bit unfair i guess, it's not like the audio situation on linux before pulse was anything other than terrible)
[21:37] <lifeless> mwhudson: its totally fair, because he claims its perfect and Ubuntu broke it
[21:38] <ajmitch> the thing I don't like about systemd is how it's trying to do everything
[21:38] <mwhudson> i see
[21:41] <hads> That tour is pretty darn cool.
[21:42] <mwhudson> thenewubuntu.com is quite shiny too
[21:44] <chilts> ajmitch: I have no sound at the moment, so you recommend just killing pulseaudio and seeing if that 'solves' the problem?
[21:44] <chilts> (noting that this happens from bootup everytime)
[21:45] <ajmitch> chilts: worth a try, probably won't change anything if it happens everytime
[21:46] <chilts> yeah, that's what I figured, but I'll try anyway :)
[21:46] <chilts> thanks
[21:48] <chilts> nah, didn't work ... I'll keep trying different things when I get the energy
[21:48] <chilts> you'd think we could have audio by 2011 though :)
[21:50] <lifeless> chilts: check its not muted
[21:53] <ajmitch> including checking with alsamixer that it's not muted & that the right channels have volume set
[21:53] <ajmitch> too many volume controls gets confusing
[22:25] <lifeless> a well known bug in natty was that on bootup, pulse would be muted
[23:32] <hads> I've discovered that if the power goes out on a suspended box when you boot again networking is disabled.
[23:33] <hads> Not so convenient for HTPCs which have no keyboard/mouse.
[23:38] <ibeardslee> need to buy one of those little keyboard/remote things for it
[23:47] <G> hads: NetworkManager dying or something?
[23:48] <ajmitch> or suspending saves some state which isn't being reset on boot
[23:49] <G> I know on pretty much every Linux system that does NetworkManager by default, I ditch NM for wired interfaces and just use the old init scripts to manage it
[23:51]  * ajmitch has a manual wireless setup on his laptop as well, with wpa_supplicant & /etc/network/interfaces
[23:54] <G> I'm for the most part happy for NetworkManager to admin my Wireless, but yeah
[23:55] <hads> Yeah, likely NM doing silly things. It's only happened once in a blue moon so not looked at it.


[08:47] <nisshh> godbyk: ping
[08:48] <godbyk> nisshh: pong
[08:48] <nisshh> godbyk: ah, your around, i have a question
[08:48] <godbyk> yep. I'm on a weird sleep schedule (for now). :)
[08:49] <nisshh> ah ok
[08:49] <nisshh> godbyk: in this branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/ubuntu-developer-manual/python_chapter_odt
[08:49] <nisshh> there is an odt file
[08:49] <nisshh> can you have a look at it please
[08:50] <godbyk> sure
[08:50] <nisshh> there is some stuff in there that i dont know how to represent with latex
[08:50] <nisshh> godbyk: tables specifically
[08:51] <godbyk> Eh.. and they're big tables, too.
[08:52] <nisshh> yea
[08:52] <godbyk> How are you handling the python interpreter code (input and output) blocks?
[08:52] <nisshh> just with the terminal command
[08:52] <nisshh> seems to work fine
[08:52] <godbyk> cool. okay.
[08:53] <nisshh> godbyk: basically, the way im showing the tabled info in latex, im just listing it
[08:53] <nisshh> but is there a better way? (not necessarily tables)
[08:53] <godbyk> Well, you can create tables in LaTeX.
[08:53] <nisshh> oh, you can?
[08:54] <godbyk> But the default tables are only ones that fit on a single page.  (And there are some other limitations.)
[08:54] <nisshh> ah
[08:54] <nisshh> so not very useful
[08:54] <godbyk> You can use the longtable package (see http://ctan.org/pkg/longtable) to get the table to split across multiple pages.
[08:54] <godbyk> But to be honest, I'd probably find a better way of showing that information.
[08:54] <nisshh> yea
[08:55] <nisshh> godbyk: any ideas?
[08:55] <godbyk> Most of it is just showing examples of operators.
[08:55] <godbyk> (At least the tables I've glanced at so far.)
[08:55] <nisshh> look at the next section down
[08:55] <nisshh> different info
[08:55] <godbyk> For those, you could probably just do the normal 'quick sentence describing this operator, and oh, here's an example:' type thing.
[08:56] <nisshh> yea
[08:56] <godbyk> Or perhaps a table that shows the operator symbols and their meanings.  Then the examples can follow.
[08:57] <nisshh> hmmm, something to think about
[08:57] <nisshh> godbyk: one thing to consider is that chapter is MASSIVE so im trying to shorten it a bit as well
[08:58] <nisshh> so id rather not include any big bulky tables at all
[08:58] <godbyk> Yeah, it is pretty packed with info.
[08:59] <nisshh> tell me about it :)
[09:00] <nisshh> godbyk: is it possible to have non-table columns in latex?
[09:01] <godbyk> The short answer is 'yes'.
[09:01] <godbyk> The longer answer depends more on what you had in mind. :)
[09:01] <nisshh> hmmm
[09:01] <godbyk> Do you mean multiple columns like what we use for the index in the Ubuntu manual?
[09:01] <godbyk> Or do you mean more like a table when there rows are aligned somehow?
[09:02] <nisshh> erm, multiple columns (i think)
[09:02] <godbyk> like newspaper columns?
[09:02] <godbyk> where the first column is filled, then the remainder of the text starts at the top of the second column, and so on?
[09:03] <nisshh> no
[09:03] <nisshh> not like that
[09:04] <nisshh> exactly like the credits in the manual
[09:04] <godbyk> that's using the same mechanism as the newspaper columns.
[09:04] <nisshh> ah ok
[09:04] <nisshh> then yes
[09:05] <godbyk> though the columns are balanced, so they are as short (vertically) as they can be and still fit in all the text.
[09:05] <nisshh> yea
[09:05] <godbyk> to do that, just type \begin{multicols}{3} text goes here \end{multicols}
[09:05] <godbyk> 3 is the number of columns you want.
[09:05] <godbyk> (I think it maxes out at 12 or something like that.)
[09:06] <nisshh> ok
[09:06] <nisshh> yea
[09:06] <nisshh> i only need 3 or 4 so it should be ok
[09:07] <godbyk> And if you want the columns to spread across the entire page width (i.e., to spread into the margin notes area, too), wrap the multicols stuff in \begin{fullwidth} ... \end{fullwidth}.
[09:07] <nisshh> ok
[09:10] <nisshh> oh bugger, godbyk has jenkins taken the tex PPA down?
[09:13] <godbyk> I think he was fixing something in it and couldn't re-upload it or something.
[09:14] <nisshh> hmm, yea, he disabled the ppa
[09:14] <nisshh> dammit
[09:14] <nisshh> just when i need latex
[09:14] <godbyk> well, you can always use the old-school instructions.
[09:14] <nisshh> yea, thats what im looking for now
[09:15] <nisshh> its just ill have to download more, and itll pake longer than the ppa
[09:15] <godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors#install-tl2009
[09:15] <godbyk> didn't the ppa contain the same files?
[09:16] <nisshh> godbyk: yea, it does, but the manual way installed alot of extra stuff that the ppa doesnt
[09:17] <nisshh> which isnt required to compile the manual
[09:17] <humphreybc> I've started a pad with a list of changes for maverick
[09:17] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-maverick << go and look at it and add stuff, go go go
[09:17] <nisshh> humphreybc: forgot about mine did you?
[09:17] <humphreybc> nisshh: ?
[09:17] <nisshh> humphreybc: i created one ages back
[09:17] <humphreybc> oh
[09:18] <humphreybc> link?
[09:18] <godbyk> someone didn't read the email thread. :-)
[09:18] <nisshh> hehe
[09:18] <nisshh> one sec
[09:18] <thorwil> "New bolder, more prominent and colourful cover"?
[09:18] <humphreybc> http://typewith.me/h2Y9bitvCI
[09:18] <humphreybc> ah ha
[09:18] <humphreybc> thorwil: yeah, get working :P
[09:19] <nisshh> humphreybc: thats the one
[09:19] <vish> humphreybc: when you comment on bug you can atleast subscribe to it ;)
[09:19] <vish> ;p
[09:19] <thorwil> humphreybc: do it yourself!
[09:19] <humphreybc> vish: I thought I got automatically subscribed
[09:19] <humphreybc> thorwil: bah
[09:19] <vish> humphreybc: yeah , lp is silly about that :)
[09:19] <humphreybc> thorwil: that's what your job is
[09:19] <nisshh> vish: hehe, your the new comment & subscribe police now :)
[09:20] <humphreybc> thorwil: you have one thing to do each release, make the title page :P
[09:20] <vish> nisshh: yeah , for this bug! i want everyone to subscribe to humphreybc's craziness ;p
[09:20] <humphreybc> vish: I think your original comment about adding more data might have annoyed more people than I did :)
[09:21] <nisshh> hehe
[09:21] <humphreybc> nisshh: can we migrate your things to my pad, I have links to articles for more info :)
[09:21] <nisshh> humphreybc: sure will do
[09:21] <thorwil> humphreybc: no. you should know by now that i don't work on a basis like "make it bolder" just out of a whim
[09:21] <vish> humphreybc: yep, i was annoyed about a bug being filed with no actual description to the problem ;)
[09:21] <godbyk> vish: ooh.. which bug?  I wanna witness craziness!
[09:21] <nisshh> ah you did already
[09:21] <godbyk> humphreybc: you should email the list with that link.
[09:21] <nisshh> oh wait, wrong link
[09:21] <humphreybc> vish: you should know by now that this sort of thing is unavoidable and the bug comments should just be allowed to flow
[09:21] <humphreybc> godbyk: i just did
[09:22] <godbyk> ah, 'kay.
[09:22] <vish> i would disagree with how this has transcribed
[09:22] <humphreybc> vish: no matter how you look at it, the wallpaper sucks donkey balls
[09:22] <vish> godbyk: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers/+bug/625193/comments/0
[09:22] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 625193 in ubuntu-wallpapers "Official 10.10 wallpaper is unappealing" [Wishlist,Triaged]
[09:23] <vish> godbyk: is there any basis for that bug? it just seems like mob mentality to me, rather than a person actually complaining about the wallpaper
[09:23] <godbyk> vish: oh, that one.
[09:23] <bilalakhtar> vish is at the wallpaper again :D
[09:23] <godbyk> vish: ugh.. wait for me to wade through the new comments.  last time I read them, it was just a bunch of whinging.  lemme see if there's anything more productive now.
[09:24]  * humphreybc is pretty tired about the wallpaper now
[09:24] <vish> humphreybc: i'm not actually worried about the wallpaper , i would rather live with an even worse wallpaper, than reward such behavior ;)
[09:24] <humphreybc> vish: i'm personally not *worried* about it, I can obviously change it. I'm worried for everyone else.
[09:24] <bilalakhtar> humphreybc: You were the one who called it a joke :)
[09:24] <nisshh> humphreybc: i just noticed all the OMG links in the pad, lol, you should be OMG's Marketing Manager
[09:25] <bilalakhtar> nisshh: don't mention OMG! when vish is around
[09:25] <nisshh> bilalakhtar: hehe
[09:25] <humphreybc> nisshh: easiest place to find information
[09:25] <nisshh> oops
[09:25] <nisshh> true
[09:25] <humphreybc> because the search actually works unlike the wiki :)
[09:25] <thorwil> vish: as bad as some might behave, you create the appearance of protecting both that wallpaper design and the way it was silently introduced. you really shouldn't do that, as least as long your are not on the canonical payroll
[09:25] <humphreybc> and often, there are more detailed explanations and screenshots than wiki specifications which are fairly ambiguous
[09:26] <nisshh> good point
[09:26] <vish> humphreybc: you guys should close commenting on the site until people calm down and learn some manners
[09:26] <humphreybc> vish: we actively moderate comments
[09:26] <humphreybc> why would we close comments down on a site that gets 8 million views a month?
[09:27] <vish> thorwil: its a launchpad *Ubuntu* bug, and filed in ubuntu, not something that was filed in canonical tracker
[09:27] <bilalakhtar> vish: It has been confirmed that this is not the final wallpaper, then why are you still protecting the design?
[09:27] <humphreybc> bilalakhtar: I wouldn't say it's confirmed that it's not the default at all
[09:27] <vish> bilalakhtar: i'm not protecting any design.. ;)
[09:27] <humphreybc> Andrea (who'
[09:28] <humphreybc> Andrea (who's a contractor for canonical) said "who said it's the final?"
[09:28] <humphreybc> that's not exactly "this is not the final."
[09:28] <humphreybc> and when have they ever landed an alpha wallpaper on the UI freeze in a cycle before, then gone on to change it later on? Never!
[09:28] <bilalakhtar> vish: You're the one who started the discussion about OMG! . You are the one who is the other side of the coin in the wally bug
[09:29] <humphreybc> anyway, all of this is off topic
[09:29] <vish> bilalakhtar: no.. i'm talking about the way that bug was filed!
[09:29] <humphreybc> we're here to talk about the manual
[09:29] <bilalakhtar> this discussion is better off i #ayatana
[09:29] <bilalakhtar> *in
[09:29] <humphreybc> yeqah
[09:29] <humphreybc> so bugger off and go there
[09:29] <vish> its better of no where ;p
[09:29] <godbyk> (still reading bug comments.  *sigh*)
[09:29] <humphreybc> now, let's talk about this manual
[09:30] <humphreybc> apart from the natural changes that come with a new release, we are going to make some changes to the manual itself
[09:30] <thorwil> like, actually talk and not just listen to vague requirements thrown out by humphreybc?
[09:30]  * bilalakhtar installs quickshot
[09:30] <nisshh> hehe
[09:30] <vish> thorwil: ++
[09:30] <godbyk> oh, snap!  point to thorwil!  :-)
[09:30] <humphreybc> thorwil: do you want to lead the project?
[09:31] <nisshh> oh damn, this is getting good
[09:31] <bilalakhtar> thorwil: ++
[09:31] <thorwil> humphreybc: no. i want to either go about design in a seriois manner or not at all
[09:31]  * bilalakhtar is curious why everyone's mind is moving away from the manual on this channel
[09:31] <humphreybc> bilalakhtar: because everyone hates me :)
[09:32]  * bilalakhtar doesn't hate humphreybc
[09:32] <vish> yeah, humphreybc sucks ;p!
[09:32]  * vish hides
[09:32] <godbyk> humphreybc: translation: if you want thorwil to design a new cover, you'll have to chat with him and provide a better description of what you're looking for, etc.
[09:32] <humphreybc> thorwil: I'd like a bolder wallpaper. It's a suggestion, not a demand, but we have to start somewhere
[09:32] <humphreybc> so this is the start of the discussion
[09:32] <humphreybc> hence why I'm actually in the channel
[09:32] <godbyk> wallpaper?
[09:32] <humphreybc> i've been tied up with other things until just now
[09:32] <humphreybc> no, not wallpaper
[09:32] <humphreybc> wait
[09:32] <humphreybc> sorry
[09:32] <godbyk> lol
[09:32] <humphreybc> i'm tired and confused :D
[09:33] <humphreybc> _cover page_
[09:33] <bilalakhtar> lol, wallpaper again :D
[09:33] <nisshh> humphreybc: merged my pad with yours :)
[09:33] <humphreybc> thanks nisshh
[09:33] <nisshh> np
[09:33] <godbyk> humphreybc: so expand on 'bolder'. what do you mean by that?  what's the message you want to convey with the cover page?
[09:33] <vish> humphreybc: wasnt the initial plan of the cover page to not keep redoing it every cycle? atleast i was of that impression , thorwil ?
[09:33] <bilalakhtar> humphreybc: the quickshot ppa is still having packages for lucid, no maverick packages :( what should I do? I am running maverick
[09:34] <thorwil> humphreybc: i have been thinking about more emotive ways to bring the same things across the current icons do. no easy task
[09:34] <humphreybc> this looks nice http://www.amazon.com/Official-Ubuntu-Book-Benjamin-Mako/dp/0137081308/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283243654&sr=8-4
[09:34] <vish> ie: only change the release # ofcourse...
[09:34] <humphreybc> I know that aubergine is for commercial, orange for community
[09:34] <thorwil> humphreybc: there's a strategy behind the current design and i don't want to drop it. that strategy could be changed, but the replacement has to make sense
[09:34] <godbyk> Oh, hey, thorwil.. while you're here. Have you looked at the Ubuntu font much?  Should I give it a try for the headings?
[09:35] <humphreybc> vish: no, we should have a new cover each cycle
[09:35] <godbyk> (I haven't had time to play with the font much. I just got a copy of it a couple days ago.)
[09:35] <vish> hmm..
[09:35] <humphreybc> thorwil: sure, but that's what you're here to think about, right?
[09:35] <vish> hmm..., "new cover each cycle"! , /me lucky thorwil is the design lead :D
[09:35] <godbyk> vish: I thought that continuity was discussed at one point, but I don't recall the outcome.
[09:36] <ChrisWoollard> Morning
[09:36] <thorwil> a completely new cover each cycles is the opposite of showing continuity and building trust and looking like we know what we do
[09:36] <humphreybc> each cycle has a new book
[09:36] <godbyk> vish: no doubt!
[09:36] <humphreybc> they should be differentiated
[09:36] <humphreybc> I didn't really want to talk about the cover page much now, I'll start a thread in the list and we can discuss it over the next few days
[09:37] <humphreybc> sound cool?
[09:37] <thorwil> godbyk: i think the ubuntu font is not at all compatible with the libertine/biolinum fonts
[09:37] <thorwil> humphreybc: ok
[09:38] <godbyk> thorwil: It's definitely a different style, that's for sure.
[09:39] <nisshh> humphreybc: check the pad about indicator applets again
[09:39] <thorwil> godbyk: i doubt it will ever be a good choice for long text, but finding a good match for it ... hard
[09:39] <godbyk> thorwil: Agreed.  I was looking at using it only for the chapter and section headings.
[09:40] <bilalakhtar> Has the ubuntu font been opened to the public?
[09:40] <thorwil> no
[09:40] <godbyk> The sidenotes and captions would use the Linux Libertine typeface.  And Biolinum would be dropped completely.
[09:41] <ChrisWoollard> I see things are moving forward now.
[09:41] <humphreybc> godbyk: it kind of would be nice to use the new font somewhere
[09:41] <humphreybc> headers seem like a good plan
[09:41] <ChrisWoollard> On the Coverpage
[09:41] <humphreybc> (we're using the ubuntu font on the new OMG! Ubuntu! site and it looks great)
[09:42] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: I would say definitely on the cover page... but it will limit translations as the character set isn't very verbose at the moment
[09:42] <godbyk> humphreybc: It would be nice, but only if it actually works for our purposes.
[09:42] <humphreybc> godbyk: yaeh
[09:42] <humphreybc> we should try it
[09:43] <thorwil> godbyk: i suspect a sans font like Liberation Sans or Gillius might go better with it. for serifs, maybe Charis. but that would be taking te ubuntu font because it is the ubuntu font and forcing it in, somehow
[09:43] <godbyk> thorwil: Right.  I don't want to force it in just because it's the Ubuntu font.
[09:44] <godbyk> I'll play around with it for headings sometime and see how it looks.
[09:44] <godbyk> I'm not holding my breath though.
[09:44] <humphreybc> yeah
[09:44] <godbyk> From the bug reports I've seen, there appear to be a lot of tracking/kerning issues.
[09:44] <humphreybc> maybe for narwhal
[09:44] <humphreybc> okay, so one of the biggest changes from lucid is the combination of two chapters
[09:45] <humphreybc> the manual is going to get _shorter_
[09:46] <godbyk> humphreybc: why's it getting shorter?
[09:46] <humphreybc> it needs to live up to it's "Getting Started" title
[09:46] <nisshh> humphreybc: whats happening to stuff like the troubleshooting chapter? getting axed?
[09:46] <bilalakhtar> godbyk: chapters are merging
[09:46] <humphreybc> currently, we're baffling users with information beyond "getting started"
[09:47] <humphreybc> as we prepare for USLC, this information should move to the net and the manual should serve as a stepping stone for them to learn the basics to do their tasks, then if they want to learn more, we should encourage them to use USLC
[09:47] <godbyk> ah. have you seen any feedback from folks who have actually read the book or used it?
[09:48] <humphreybc> nope but I'd like to see some
[09:48] <nisshh> iv seen a bit on UF
[09:48] <godbyk> I think all the feedback I've seen has been along the lines of, 'Oh, hey, look! A free Ubuntu book!'
[09:48] <humphreybc> nisshh: oh yeah?
[09:48] <humphreybc> godbyk: yeah totally
[09:48] <nisshh> mainly just, "its great, made it easy"
[09:48] <humphreybc> that's something we need to address - reaching the right people
[09:48] <nisshh> nothing in depth
[09:48] <godbyk> humphreybc: So what leads you to think that our readers (if they do exist) are baffled?
[09:48] <nisshh> iv seen a fair few people recommending it on UF as well
[09:48] <nisshh> atleast 10-15 people
[09:49] <humphreybc> godbyk: nothing, but I don't think we need to have "managing software through the terminal" when the Software Center is now mature enough.
[09:49] <humphreybc> "managing software through the terminal" is NOT fundamental to "getting started with Ubuntu"
[09:49] <ChrisWoollard> How about a feedback form on the website?
[09:49] <nisshh> we could do that when the maverick edition gets released ChrisWoollard :)
[09:50] <godbyk> humphreybc: true.  though having an intro to doing that sort of thing might be handy, since the instructions they'll find on the internet are of that nature.
[09:50] <humphreybc> you do NOT need to know how to manage software through the terminal to use Ubuntu successfully and complete everyday tasks like listening to music, surfing the web or installing/removing software.
[09:50] <humphreybc> godbyk: Right, so that's what I want.
[09:50] <humphreybc> we should let them know other ways exist
[09:50] <nisshh> good point
[09:50] <godbyk> humphreybc: for instance, when OMG! posts a review of a new program, they give those apt-get instructions. not click here, then here, etc.
[09:50] <humphreybc> but since this is a GETTING STARTED guide, those advanced topics will be available on the net
[09:50] <humphreybc> godbyk: sure
[09:51] <humphreybc> I just chose that example
[09:51] <humphreybc> and anyway, that's OMG! Ubuntu!'s problem
[09:51] <humphreybc> the manual shouldn't include a section to make it easy for OMG! readers to install software
[09:51] <humphreybc> we can allude that commands exist, show them how to open a terminal, maybe list some common commands
[09:52] <humphreybc> but we don't need step by step guides
[09:52] <godbyk> Well, it's not just OMG!  The forums tend to do that, blogs do that, etc.
[09:52] <humphreybc> godbyk: once again, just an example
[09:52] <godbyk> I suspect the reason is that it's shorter to give the commands than guide someone through the GUI.
[09:52] <humphreybc> who said people on forums and OMG! Ubuntu! are teaching it the right way?
[09:53] <humphreybc> would my Mum actually go and read OMG! or sign up to UF?
[09:53] <nisshh> nope
[09:53] <humphreybc> who's our target audience? Very different to people who are involved in the community, I imagine
[09:53] <bilalakhtar> humphreybc: When will the Quickshot PPA be ready for maverick?
[09:53] <godbyk> You're suggesting that your mum doesn't even read your articles?  Wow, that's harsh!  :-P
[09:53] <nisshh> lol
[09:54] <humphreybc> godbyk: she's harsh
[09:54] <humphreybc> bilalakhtar: something to ask jenkins
[09:54]  * bilalakhtar checks if the lucid package works no maverick
[09:54] <bilalakhtar> s/no/on/
[09:54] <humphreybc> anyway, what I'm saying, is currently the manual has a lot of unnecessary sections, while missing important sections
[09:54] <humphreybc> and that
[09:54] <humphreybc> and that's to be expected because it was originally rushed together
[09:55] <nisshh> humphreybc: something else we need to consider is the relevancy of the screenshots
[09:55] <humphreybc> nisshh: yeah totally
[09:55] <humphreybc> we need to get the file size down more too
[09:55] <nisshh> some of them are pretty pointless
[09:55] <humphreybc> want to get it on the CD
[09:55] <nisshh> whereas others are essential
[09:55] <nisshh> yea
[09:55] <humphreybc> been talking to Jono and Jorge, they like the idea, just need to post to ubuntu-desktop about it
[09:55] <nisshh> yea
[09:55] <humphreybc> size is an issue though
[09:56] <nisshh> humphreybc: well, i reckon we could get below 2MB's for maverick. with everything we are removing and shuffling around
[09:57] <humphreybc> (contrary to popular belief, I don't just pull these ideas out of my arse, I do have a plan)
[09:57] <humphreybc> but it appears the team's faith in me has been reduced to nearly zero
[09:58] <nisshh> lets all join hands and pronounce our faith to humphreybc :)
[09:58] <nisshh> humphreybc: its probably just because you have been around much less lately
[09:58]  * thorwil pronounces 0.1 faith
[09:58] <godbyk> humphreybc: Sorry, I don't do faith.  I prefer to know what's going on behind the curtain. :)
[09:59] <humphreybc> nisshh: that would be because during the lucid cycle I was on holiday, during this cycle i've been at uni
[09:59] <humphreybc> during the narwhal cycle i'll be on holiday again
[09:59] <nisshh> humphreybc: ah, exactly
[09:59]  * godbyk also doesn't blindly follow orders. :)
[09:59] <vish> thorwil: godbyk: fun fact: Ubuntu does not have to use any of canonical's work. but Ubuntu *chooses* to.. Ubuntu can decide to not use the appmenu or anything from Canonical..  ;)
[09:59] <nisshh> godbyk: sit! stay! :)
[09:59] <humphreybc> vish: I don't know who would decide not to when all the developers are employed by Canonical
[10:00] <humphreybc> and anyway, pretty sure Canonical owns the intellectual property related to Ubuntu
[10:00] <thorwil> vish: now how's that for good behaviour, you derailer of discussions!!! ;)
[10:00] <humphreybc> vish: stop going off topic
[10:00] <nisshh> heh
[10:00] <vish> humphreybc: what are you doing up late this night?
[10:01] <humphreybc> vish: it's 9pm
[10:01] <vish> humphreybc: or is football better conversation? ;p
[10:01] <humphreybc> ?
[10:01]  * nisshh is getting more and more confused
[10:02] <humphreybc> vish: you're not helping
[10:02] <humphreybc> maybe I should come back later when everyone actually wants to do something?
[10:02] <godbyk> humphreybc: Who knows when that'll be!
[10:03] <nisshh> lol
[10:03] <nisshh> humphreybc: PM me
[10:03] <vish> heh, see how easy/annoying it is for others ? ;)
[10:04] <humphreybc> godbyk: vish: if you have a problem with me, it's better to tell me rather than playing games
[10:04] <vish> humphreybc: dude!!!!!!!! wtf? now who has a problem? why are you taking it personal?
[10:04] <godbyk> humphreybc: What games?  And I don't have a problem with you.
[10:04] <vish> meh..
[10:04] <godbyk> This is the most activity that's taken place in this channel in weeks.
[10:05] <nisshh> no kidding
[10:05] <humphreybc> it's not my fault that I am busy?
[10:05] <godbyk> Aside from this, the only other conversation that's taken place in the past week has been flan and jenkins carrying on about quickshot dev stuff.
[10:05] <humphreybc> if you guys are keen to get started on the manual then you don't have to wait for me
[10:05] <humphreybc> seems to me that you're pissed off that I haven't been around much
[10:06] <vish> humphreybc: surely its not me! i'v just been lurking here  ;)
[10:06] <godbyk> I've been pretty busy myself lately, so I can't complain much. I've been trying to get folks to start work. So far nothing's happened, though.
[10:06]  * humphreybc sighs
[10:06] <godbyk> (I haven't had time to really get things organized, though.)
[10:08] <godbyk> I think something we need to do ASAP is coerce people to commit to updating/writing each section of the manual.
[10:08] <godbyk> The repository is ready for use.
[10:10] <nisshh> godbyk: consider me working on it after dinner tonight
[10:10] <humphreybc> godbyk: if we can get all the changes as bug reports then there will be things to assign and track
[10:11] <humphreybc> then we can mail to the list and say "hey, here are a dozen open bugs that need to be fixed - go go go!"
[10:11] <nisshh> right after latex finishes installing anyway
[10:12] <nisshh> bbl
[10:16] <humphreybc> see you soon nisshh
[10:17] <ChrisWoollard> This odd. I go for breakfast and when i get back it looks like a fight has broken out.
[10:17] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: nah, I'm just tired, thorwil is being thorwil and vish has ants in his pants
[10:17] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Heh.. see what happens when you step away for a moment?
[10:18] <vish> humphreybc: ! ;p
[10:18] <godbyk> And I'm nobody. :-(
[10:18] <humphreybc> hahaha
[10:18] <ChrisWoollard> All I say is...... By nice......
[10:18] <ChrisWoollard> s/By/Be
[10:19] <thorwil> godbyk: you're infrastructure ;)
[10:19] <vish> humphreybc: actually, i did not see the channel having a conversation.. i was scrolled up higher! and replied to something else on top..  looks like someone was just touchy today ;p
[10:19] <thorwil> vish: see, you have to leave the ants to humphreybc's pants
[10:20] <godbyk> thorwil: lol. thanks!
[10:20] <humphreybc> vish: hahaha
[10:20] <humphreybc> nice
[10:20] <ChrisWoollard> Anyway. I am not sure what I can commit to yet. I have to complete a job application which will be a knightmare.
[10:20] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: You're applying to be a knight?  Awesome!
[10:20] <ChrisWoollard> It needs to be in at the end of the week
[10:20] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: fighting some dragons?
[10:20] <ChrisWoollard> That would be easier
[10:21] <humphreybc> watch out, I hear they breathe fire
[10:21] <ChrisWoollard> The people on the interview panal do.
[10:21] <ChrisWoollard> panel
[10:22]  * popey tickles humphreybc
[10:22] <humphreybc> popey: bit stressed at the moment :)
[10:22] <godbyk> run, popey, run! :)
[10:23] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Ugh..  I always feel like I'm in front of a firing squad.
[10:23]  * popey reloads
[10:23] <ChrisWoollard> This is only a sideways step in my company as well.
[10:24] <godbyk> You have to jump through all those hopes for a lateral transfer, ChrisWoollard? Wow!
[10:24] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: bummer!
[10:24] <humphreybc> I hope it's worth it!
[10:24] <ChrisWoollard> Yes. It is a knightmare.
[10:25] <ChrisWoollard> They haven't even just advertised it internally either. It has gone external too. My manger is a complete git!
[10:26] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: what do you do?
[10:26] <popey> surely thats a good thing?
[10:26] <popey> get the best person for the job
[10:26] <ChrisWoollard> Senior Systems Engineer
[10:28] <godbyk> popey: Unless you want the job and you're not the best person. ;-)
[10:28] <popey> :)
[10:28] <ChrisWoollard> Manage websites / VMware / Apache / ORacle etc
[10:28] <godbyk> Look out! He's invoking op powers!
[10:28] <popey> i think he meant to do that in #omg!ubuntu!
[10:28] <humphreybc> can't believe I remembered that
[10:28]  * vish lols at the topic!!!!!
[10:28] <popey> where they're currently discussing losing their virginity
[10:28] <humphreybc> popey: HA
[10:28] <humphreybc> that sounds about right
[10:28] <humphreybc> popey: is MichaelH in on that too?
[10:29]  * popey hands humphreybc the /join command
[10:29] <humphreybc> I don't care enough
[10:29] <humphreybc> lol
[10:29]  * popey notes
[10:29]  * humphreybc is about ready for a bed after a very long day methinks
[10:30] <humphreybc> Oh good, a Louis Theroux doco is on!
[10:32] <humphreybc> oh god!
[10:32] <humphreybc> http://www.3news.co.nz/Beer-pong-making-a-splash-in-Dunedin/tabid/728/articleID/173369/Default.aspx
[10:32] <humphreybc> and I thought beer pong was reserved for terrible American high school movies
[10:33] <godbyk> humphreybc: Apparently it's now reserved for that and for Dunedin inhabitants.
[10:33] <humphreybc> godbyk: I live in Dunedin. Maybe I should get in on that.
[10:33] <godbyk> humphreybc: Totally.
[10:34] <humphreybc> I'm watching meth-heads on TV
[10:34] <ChrisWoollard> Since when did the topic start to be changed based on whatever is being talked about?
[10:35] <vish> ChrisWoollard: looks like humphreybc just remembered the /topic command ;)
[10:35] <ChrisWoollard> And how to elevate his privileges
[10:36] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Since humphreybc stayed up past his bedtime. :-)
[10:36] <vish> highten!
[10:36] <humphreybc> kay, i'm done now
[10:37] <humphreybc> :)
[10:38] <humphreybc> alright i'm out of here
[10:38] <ChrisWoollard> night night
[10:38] <humphreybc> hot milo, some banana cake, a documentary and bed for me
[10:38] <humphreybc> i'll be back around tomorrow
[10:38] <humphreybc> good times :D
[10:38] <humphreybc> chowski
[10:53]  * nisshh will have a surprise for humphreybc tomorrow
[10:54] <nisshh> godbyk: is the branch for maverick changes just lp:ubuntu-manual? or is there a new one?
[10:54] <thorwil> seems we had a surprise for him today, already
[10:55] <godbyk> nisshh: I think so.  Though you can use lp:ubuntu-manual/maverick to be sure you get the right one.
[10:55] <nisshh> thorwil: lol
[10:55] <nisshh> godbyk: ok
[11:09] <popey> nisshh: you going for ubuntu membership right now in #ubuntu-meeting ?
[11:12] <nisshh> popey: oh shit yea, i forgot
[11:12] <popey> meeting just started
[11:13] <nisshh> popey: yea, ill wait
[12:20] <ChrisWoollard> Well done nisshh
[12:22] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: thanks dude
[12:22] <nisshh> it was a unanimous vote too
[12:28] <ChrisWoollard> that is nice.
[12:28] <thorwil> congratulations, nisshh (happened while i had lunch)
[12:28] <ChrisWoollard> did you get lots more testimonials?
[12:29] <nisshh> thorwil: thanks
[12:29] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: i had 1 before now i have 4
[12:30] <ChrisWoollard> that is better
[12:30] <nisshh> yea
[12:36] <nisshh> brb, just testing my cloak
[12:36] <nisshh> oooh, works
[12:37] <popey> it was there before you tested it :)
[12:37] <popey> 12:34:38 -!- nisshh [~ryan@ubuntu/member/nisshh] has joined #ubuntu-manual
[12:37] <popey> 12:36:15 < nisshh> brb, just testing my cloak
[12:40] <nisshh> popey: :O
[12:40] <nisshh> didn see it
[14:58] <flan> Oh, no. The guy I wanted to poke at to ask question.
[14:58] <flan> questions*
[14:59] <nisshh> flan: thorwil im guessing?
[14:59] <flan> Nah. bilalakhtar.
[14:59] <nisshh> ah ok
[14:59] <flan> He applied for Quickshot yesterday.
[14:59] <nisshh> yea
[15:27] <ChrisWoollard> nisshh: For bug https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/609085 I think we should just update the screenshot for maverick with one that shows the options for wireless and wired. With regard to the text. We don't want to make things complicated.
[15:27] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 609085 in ubuntu-manual "Inappropriate NetworkManager screenshot" [Medium,New]
[15:28] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: exactly, i agree. I just didnt want to touch the bug until i know whats going on
[15:28] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: ill makr in for maverick-alpha then
[15:28] <nisshh> mark it*
[15:28] <ChrisWoollard> We just defered it until maverick
[15:28] <nisshh> ah ok
[15:28] <nisshh> didnt see that
[15:29] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: you know the maverick branch is getting worked on now?
[15:29] <ChrisWoollard> It was a discussion on IRC between Godbyk and myself before the release of lucid e2.
[15:29] <nisshh> ok
[15:29] <ChrisWoollard> I forgot to update the text of the bug
[15:30] <ChrisWoollard> The maverick branch is ok to work on. Godbyk got it ready last week.
[15:30] <nisshh> yea
[15:31] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: have a look at the bugs page for the manual, i just fixed all the open bugs except that one
[15:31] <nisshh> in the maverick branch
[15:31] <ChrisWoollard> I did notice all the e-mails ;)
[15:32] <nisshh> hehe
[15:44] <nisshh> ok, who the hell edited the maverick changes pad and changed half of it to a different language
[15:49] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: ^^^^
[16:03] <ChrisWoollard> what
[16:03] <ChrisWoollard> lanuage?
[16:07] <ChrisWoollard> That is weird. It changed between the change i made and the change that Sayantan Das made.
[16:07] <ChrisWoollard> I am english and speak only english. So I really cannot believe that anything that I have done would do that.
[16:07] <nisshh> yea
[16:08] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: im not saying it was you, i just cant get it to change back
[16:09] <ChrisWoollard> I wonder if translate in google chrome changed it.
[16:12] <ChrisWoollard> I have fixed it :)
[16:17] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: thanks
[16:17] <ChrisWoollard> np
[16:18] <ChrisWoollard> But whatever the case. It wasn't me that broken it. I just didn't noticed when i added a note.
[16:18] <nisshh> yea, thats cool
[16:39] <flan> Anyonw know when jenkins usually appears?
[16:58] <flan> Anyone know the channel for Glade?
[16:59] <flan> Oh. #glade3.
[16:59] <flan> ...On irc.gnome.org.
[17:46] <flan> Anyone here have experience troubleshooting Glade errors?
[18:46] <Muscovy> Can the Maverick manual compile currently?
[19:35] <brandonj> Muscovy: there are some errors
[19:37] <Muscovy> Ok, I thought it might have been my edits.
[19:59] <flan> jenkins! Yay!
[19:59] <jenkins> hey flan not waiting or any thing :)
[19:59] <flan> How can I actually edit the Glade files? I keep getting catalogue errors when I try.
[20:00] <jenkins> do you not use glade?
[20:00] <flan> I've been trying.
[20:00] <flan> It just fails.
[20:00] <jenkins> do you have quickly installed?
[20:00] <flan> Sating a required catalogue file was missing. And naming the file declared at the top of the .ui.
[20:00] <flan> QuickshotWindow.ui -> missing quickshot_window
[20:01] <flan> I can load the files with pygtk without issue.
[20:01] <flan> Can you open them with Glade?
[20:02] <flan> I've tried on both Karmic and Lucid.
[20:02] <jenkins> I don't know I just do quickly design which loads them in glade. I will try and open them with just glade
[20:02] <flan> Oh. Well, I hadn't thought of trying quickly to load them...
[20:03] <flan> Okay... That works...
[20:03] <jenkins> you need to be in the source folder.
[20:03]  * flan doesn't trust Quickly.
[20:03] <flan> It does weird things.
[20:03] <flan> WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEIRD things.
[20:04] <jenkins> thats all we use quickly for now. I do all the release stuff with other commands
[20:04] <jenkins> have you just skipped the welcome screen for now?
[20:05] <jenkins> have you contacted the new member
[20:05] <jenkins> Bilal Akhtar (bilalakhtar) ?
[20:05] <flan> The welcome screen can't be the first thing we display. Or, if it is, it needs a lot less information.
[20:06] <flan> I have not. He left the channel just before I got to work.
[20:06] <flan> Not every project will require a custom username.
[20:06] <flan> Not every project will require a resolution change.
[20:07] <flan> The first thing we need to do is ask the user to choose a project (defaulting to any they may have passed as an argument), then configure their environment, if necessary.
[20:08] <jenkins> basied on my chats with godbyk we will need a welcoem screen. I have not fixed any of the text or anything like that
[20:08] <flan> Thus making the welcome screen step 2, as a specific welcome to the project they're working on. If we even retain it.
[20:08] <jenkins> interesting idea
[20:08] <flan> We could merge the welcome screen with the project-selection screen.
[20:08] <flan> Welcome to Quickshot! <logo/>
[20:09] <flan> To get started, please choose a project.
[20:09] <flan> Recent: listbox.
[20:09] <flan> Available online: listbox
[20:09] <jenkins> yea something like that sounds good
[20:09] <flan> Local file: selection-textbox + ...
[20:09] <flan> Project URL: textbox.
[20:09] <flan> With a 'Get started!' button beside each row.
[20:10] <flan> Each one occupies a slot in a vbox. Separators between them are optional.
[20:11] <jenkins> hmm not sure about the button buy each one would have to see how it looks
[20:11] <flan> First step, though, is to move every window to its own project. I think you can just cut/paste, but I'm not sure.
[20:12] <flan> Well, we'll need some way of disambiguating.
[20:12] <jenkins> I asked you about this and you said it was fine as it was :P
[20:12] <flan> What if a user clicks a recent screenshot, but also pastes a URL?
[20:12] <flan> What if the user things every field needs to be filled out?
[20:13] <flan> I did. But that's before I realized that Glade uses the XML ID property to name window elements.
[20:13] <flan> Preventing us from reusing names across windows.
[20:13] <flan> Which is very ugly.
[20:13] <flan> Since we'd need to have a common namespace, rather than a bunch of isolated ones.
[20:13] <ChrisWoollard> jenkins: how is your wiki coming long.
[20:14] <jenkins> ok flan
[20:14] <flan> If you can split the windows apart today, I can bind them all and give us transparent button-click-passthrough behaviour tonight.
[20:14] <flan> If not, I'll split them once I get home.
[20:14] <jenkins> ChrisWoollard: erm I have not done any thing to it yet :(.
[20:14] <jenkins> flan: I will have ago at spliting them
[20:14] <flan> thanks.
[20:14] <flan> Sorry to make you redo work. :(
[20:14]  * flan should have done more research.
[20:15] <ChrisWoollard> What is the page? Have I written on it yet?
[20:15] <jenkins> no worries flan I will have it done quickly going on the first one
[20:15] <flan> Oh. When splitting, make every window's body the top-level element. This means using a box with a content-count of 1.
[20:16] <jenkins> ChrisWoollard: erm I will find it for you
[20:16] <jenkins> flan: so the first hbox or vbox is box 1 ?
[20:16] <flan> I'm basically just ripping out that element and reparenting it to the other architecture. This will give us the freedom of building a more wizard-like system in the future, if we decide against multi-window for any reason.
[20:16] <flan> (I'm not sure which is better)
[20:16] <flan> The first one should just be called 'box_main'. It doesn't matter what its type is, as long as it only has one child.
[20:17] <jenkins> ChrisWoollard: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[20:17] <ChrisWoollard> No... Your wiki page. So i can write something nice
[20:17] <jenkins> right ok i will name it box_main
[20:18] <flan> (box_main' is plain, but it forms a simple consistency)
[20:18] <jenkins> ChrisWoollard: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukeJennings there is still nothing there work has rather taken more time than I would like.
[20:19] <ChrisWoollard> Doesn't matter. It is still a step in the right direction.
[20:20] <jenkins> thanks ChrisWoollard, I will make sure I write on yours as well
[20:20] <ChrisWoollard> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cwoollard
[20:23] <flan> Mmm... Styrofoam-like noodles in boiling water with power-based soup-stock...
[20:26] <jenkins> you always manage to make me hungry
[20:27] <flan> o.0
[20:27] <flan> You... must have very low standards where food is concerned.
[20:27]  * flan can think of far more appetizing, far healthier things to eat.
[20:28] <flan> Like... uh... dirt.
[20:29] <jenkins> well i found the word cake in the screenshots list yesterday
[20:29] <flan> Cake is dlicious.
[20:33]  * jenkins goes to get toffies
[20:33] <flan> You Brits and your tasty-sounding snack-items.
[20:40] <jenkins> I have each window in seperate files now
[20:40] <flan> Yay.
[20:40] <flan> I'll link some stuff as soon as I get a break, then.
[20:42] <jenkins> brilliant, anything you would like me to do/try to do?
[20:42] <flan> Sure. Exit project_window.py and change the name of the file it loads to the name of the file you just created and see if 'quickly run' still works.
[20:43] <flan> project_selection.py*
[20:43] <jenkins> ok I will have a go
[20:43] <flan> If it does, duplicate project_selection for all other windows we'll need to display, setting their strings and size-requests appropriately.
[20:43] <flan> Swap them in and out of the quickshot script to see if they all load and display as expected.
[20:44] <ChrisWoollard> Jenkins: Done. I hope that is ok
[20:45] <jenkins> thats great thanks ChrisWoollard, hope the one i did was ok
[20:45] <ChrisWoollard> that is great. thanks
[21:28] <jenkins> flan: in the project_sleection.py file you specify the size of the window but the glade file also does that which one is the winner/correct one?
[21:37] <flan> The one specified in the .py file.
[21:37] <jenkins> ok cool I will get changing them
[21:37] <flan> I could probably ask the Glade file for its dimensions, though.
[21:38] <flan> To make it cleaner.
[21:38] <flan> In any case, anything you add/change/do in the .py will override anything in the .ui.
[21:38] <flan> If you get a label reference and call set_text() in Python, it'll override what came from Glade.
[21:39] <jenkins> well I don't mind they are already in the glade stuff. I am not sure that it makes a differnce
[21:39] <flan> It's fine if they're in both places.
[21:39] <flan> But it's probably easier if I read them from Glade.
[21:39] <flan> Easier maintenance-wise.
[21:39] <flan> Or maybe not.
[21:39] <flan> Up to you.
[21:40] <jenkins> I think reading from the glade file would be easier to maintain
[21:43] <ChrisWoollard> Jenkins: I added a couple more things :D
[21:43] <jenkins> yey thanks I have got it in my mind to add to yours if i think of anything
[21:54] <jenkins> flan: if I have now made a .py file for every window does that not mean that
[21:55] <jenkins> ignore that ment to delete it I miss understood something
[22:00] <flan> 'Kay.
[22:00] <flan> Want something else to do?
[22:00] <ChrisWoollard> jenkins: I have added my name to the list :)
[22:00] <flan> I presume they all load now.
[22:01] <jenkins> flan: I will just double check that I got destracted sorting out breakdown cover.
[22:02] <jenkins> i don't understand how to specify a different file/window in the bin/quickshot file
[22:02] <jenkins> good luck ChrisWoollard I will try and get mine detailed up
[22:03] <flan> Just hack it into place. At the end of the file, comment out the window-setup code that I have in place and add "import quickshot.gui.whatever" "x = quickshot.gui.whatever.WhateverWindow()" "x.show()"
[22:03] <jenkins> I think my wiki page could read jenkins tries his best but does not always excel. Thats how I feel with quickshot
[22:03] <ChrisWoollard> It shouldn't take long.  You can do it.
[22:04] <flan> I'll clean up any inconsistencies with arguments and stuff later.
[22:04] <ChrisWoollard> Nope, you have to big yourself up.
[22:04] <ChrisWoollard> You don't get anywhere if you don't believe in yourself.
[22:05] <jenkins> flan: ok thats what i thought it might be.
[22:05] <flan> The important point is that we should have everything from Glade being displayed properly so you can work on layout and appearance, while being confident that your changes will be reflected directly.
[22:05] <jenkins> ChrisWoollard: yea I know :)
[22:08] <jenkins> i sucks I am so busy and have not very much time for the manual stuff. Are well roll on going back to uni next year :)
[22:08] <flan> Once we get to Qs 1.0, it'll eat up a lot less of your time.
[22:09] <flan> It'll be more maintainable and we shouldn't need to do a full rewrite ever again.
[22:09] <jenkins> I hope so, I do like doing quickshot it is a great learning experince and a lot fo fun
[22:10] <flan> Well, it's going to still get some work...
[22:10] <flan> The site-as-a-project-source feature, for one thing.
[22:10] <flan> That'll probably be 1.1 for the client.
[22:11] <flan> For now, we'll just have to disable that section of the UI.
[22:11] <jenkins> I like packaging it and I want to package for as many different distros
[22:11] <flan> Yeah... I'd like to see packages for different systems, too.
[22:11] <jenkins> I definatly still want to work on extra fetures where I can and where you will help
[22:11] <jenkins> me learn
[22:11] <flan> Maybe a break from the dependence on Gnome, to make it easier to use under KDE.
[22:12] <flan> (Assuming it doesn't work in KDE already)
[22:12] <flan> Sorry I'll kinda be taking control for this week. :(
[22:12] <flan> Deadline's a bit too close, I'm afraid.
[22:13] <jenkins> no worries I could do with the boost. there are some commands that don't work in kde
[22:14] <jenkins> there is the kde equivilent in the quickshot/enviroment_details.py file
[22:14] <ChrisWoollard> ping godbyk
[22:14] <jenkins> I would like a qt gui for kde
[22:15] <flan> Considering the specialised nature of Quickshot, I don't think having a Qt GUI would be truly necessary.
[22:15] <flan> It might be a good learning project, though.
[22:15] <flan> And it wouldn't be too hard for you to do on your own.
[22:15] <flan> Just getting the libraries working in KDE would be enough for me.
[22:17] <jenkins> hmm the panel in mavrick has locked up
[22:23] <flan> Please copy the updated client-library into place (server/__init__.py on the client-side). I added in-schema versioning, rather than in-protocol.
[22:23] <jenkins> ok will do
[22:24] <flan> Yes, I did just commit what you think I just committed.
[22:25] <jenkins> I have no clue what you mena
[22:25] <flan> And I just broke the server.
[22:25] <jenkins> lol
[22:25] <flan> HARDCORE.
[22:27] <jenkins> hope you can fis it
[22:27] <jenkins> *fix
[22:28] <flan> Oh, yeah. It's easy.
[22:28] <flan> I just thought datetime implemented __cmp__ against date.
[22:28] <flan> It doesn't.
[22:28] <flan> All better.
[22:29] <flan> http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ump/10-04/.qsproj Two new fields: system.version and meta.expiration-date
[22:29] <jenkins> nice
[22:30] <flan> Oh. I just thought of something you might find helpful...
[22:30] <flan> I'll update the client library again tonight.
[22:30] <flan> It might be helpful if you were to know whether you could display the project's URL or not.
[22:30] <flan> And what the URL is.
[22:30] <flan> Or maybe I'll update it again now.
[22:31] <flan> Or in ten minutes.
[22:31] <flan> Who knows? I'm crazy.
[22:31] <jenkins> cool, in the project_selection file at the bottom it has project_selection_window = ProjectSelectionWindow() and there is a ProjectSelectionWindow.ui file which has nothing in it. do i need to make blank file for each window?
[22:31] <flan> No.
[22:31] <flan> That was probably me using touch and bzr add without concern for who I'd be confusing.
[22:31] <flan> Remove the blank file.
[22:32] <flan> I must've forgotten to do that befoire committing.
[22:32] <jenkins> ok do i need to change that line in each file?
[22:32] <flan> That line should point at the real .ui.
[22:32] <flan> It's there so we can implement the dummy tests we discussed before.
[22:33] <flan> Loading an individual window and playing with its content without actually going through the steps.
[22:33] <flan> ...I think.
[22:33] <flan> Maybe we're talking about different lines.
[22:33] <jenkins> line 39
[22:33] <flan> Which file?
[22:34] <flan> Never mind. Found it.
[22:34] <flan> Yeah, that line should be modified to reflect the file in which it resides.
[22:35] <flan> screenshot_selection.py should have screenshot_selection_window/ScreenshotSelectionWindow(), for example.
[22:35]  * flan likes long, verbose variable names.
[22:35] <jenkins> thats what i guessed thanks, I will change my misktakes
[22:35] <flan> (So much more readable than 'psw' or 'proj_sel_win')
[22:35] <jenkins> i agree
[22:35] <flan> Your assumptions are probably right in general.
[22:36] <flan> If they're not, I'll fix them when I get to it.
[22:36] <flan> Just go with what seems to make sense.
[22:48] <flan> Another client-library update's been pushed. New functionality for you: get_address():str/None
[22:49] <flan> You don't have to make use of it, but it might be nice to give the user a clickable link on the screenshot-selection window, in case they want to see how the project's doing.
[22:50] <jenkins> yep copied it accross
[22:50] <flan> Yay.
[22:50]  * flan prepares for a long evening spent with relatives.
[22:50] <jenkins> have fun
[22:50] <flan> I'll try.
[22:50] <flan> Quickshot when I get home.
[22:51] <jenkins> I don't appear to make each window open on quickly run yet. I am correcting all the py files for errors of stuff i did not change
[22:52] <flan> I won't be home for about five hours.
[22:52] <flan> Feel free to commit non-functioning code.
[22:53] <flan> I'll go over it and try to make everything consistent and working.
[22:53] <flan> So you can focus on making it look good.
[22:56] <jenkins> I think I will go to bed soon. I can't work out why each window will not open and so I have left it broken at the moment
[22:56] <flan> 'Kay.
[22:56] <flan> I'll try to ensure everything's fine when you're available tomorrow.
[22:57] <flan> +for
[22:57] <jenkins> thanks
[22:57] <jenkins> night all
[22:57] <flan> G'night.


[03:46] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[03:47] <DoRoad> Hello
[03:48] <lotuspsychje> hey DoRoad
[08:27] <DoRoad> lotuspsychje: I can't reconcile with my life's decissions
[20:33] <X7> I asked in the regular ubuntu channel but was told here is better suitable. I'm getting worried about the state of debian with how the number of increasing packages that are orphaned (as in no maintainer anymore) and packages can become orphaned at any time. Does ubuntu have this problem also or does it avoid it thanks to canonical backing it?
[20:49] <tomreyn> X7: ubuntu imports many packages from debian. so far those were mostly "community maintained" which, i think, means they had a similar support level as in debian. now there's a commercial offering with a free tier ("ubuntu pro") where canonical plans to provide security support for those packages in the "universe" repository.
[20:50] <tomreyn> but this is really new, was just announced.
[20:50] <X7> I was seriously considering paying for ubuntu pro because I heard that pro at the max level gives you security patches for all universe packages.
[20:51] <tomreyn> https://ubuntu.com/pro
[20:52] <cartdrige> secure E.T.
[20:53] <cartdrige> :P yeah it's not bad for professionals. server owners etc.
[20:54] <tomreyn> some packages in universe are in a really bad state, fail on the first run without options. so i'm wondering how much use it will be to provide security support (only) for those. but we shall see how well it works.
[20:55] <X7> If I subscribe to ubuntu pro, does  that mean I *have* to use gnome? I can't use KDE or XFCE even if I'm paying for it?
[20:55] <tomreyn> for many of the packages, it's certainly nice to have security support for those
[20:55] <tomreyn> it doesn't mean that, i think. but you'll need to discuss the commercial offerings with canonical really
[20:57] <tomreyn> all ubuntu flavors have the same foundation, and while ubuntu server and desktop (gnome-shell/mutter) packages are mostly in the "main" repository section, the flavors' are mostly in universe.
[20:58] <X7> I found a phone number on canonicals website. I'll call monday with questions. Thanks for the help.
[21:00] <tomreyn> so far, the flavor maintainers certainly provided several (free) security patches for their flavors, it will be interesting to see what happens to those when there are also (?) the ubuntu pro ones.
[21:01] <X7> The {k|l|x}ubuntu {MATE} teams only give you 3 years of support. I don't know if paying for pro switches who is providing support immediately or after the 3 years. But I'll find out monday.
[21:07] <Bashing-om> tomreyn: ian-weisser has a ping to the Pro team in this respect: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-pro-support-questions-in-community-support-venues/32184 .
[21:09] <tomreyn> Bashing-om: thanks