[16:40] <Sebastien> hi TankBot
[16:40] <TankBot> Hey Sebastien
[16:40] <Sebastien> are you a bot
[16:40] <Sebastien> because we don't need bots in here
[16:40] <Sebastien> hmm
[19:45] <Ankman> sorry, was my bot. did not pay attention. will remove it from this channel then
[19:46] <Ankman> thought it could be helpful, doing language tranlation, finding information...
[20:58] <cyphermox> Ankman: I don't think it would really have mattered tbh
[21:31] <Ankman> ok


[12:04] <kiko-afk> is SteveA still around?
[12:25] <dilys> Merge to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>ShipItNG: Allow people to place new orders and shipit admins to search for existing requests and approve, cancel or change them. It's also possible to create new standard shipit requests, which are the options presented to users when they place new orders. r=kiko (patch-2342<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:26] <kiko> YES!
[12:27] <lifeless> SteveA: fixed
[03:42] <stub> lifeless: Can you please mirror<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:43] <lifeless> done
[03:46] <lifeless> stub: how is the z3 test foo coming along - did my suggested design make sense to jim ?
[03:49] <stub> I havn't looked at it recently. There is some low hanging fruit I want to make to it first. I think the redesign can be retrofitted after (and it is all tested so we can ensure all the features remain as expected) given time and inclination. I havn't discussed the redesin with Jim though, as I was more interested in ensuring it supports the features we need rather than how it is implemented.
[03:50] <lifeless> stub: ok.
[03:51] <lifeless> trial has a similar requirement, also implemented 'differently'. I'm thinking I might do up a sibling project to subunit to do unit resource management
[03:51] <stub> There is a desire to get something into Python 2.5 I believe
[03:52] <lifeless> have I shown you subunit ?
[03:56] <stub> Nope
[03:57] <lifeless> http://www.robertcollins.net/unittest/subunit
[04:12] <lifeless> stub: what do you think ?
[04:16] <stub> Could be useful. The new Z3 test runner has the interesting property that the process is only restarted if a teardown reports that something can't be torn down, whereas the subunit model seems to require you to cluster tests that should be run in a seperate process together.
[04:17] <lifeless> well, it lets you mix and match
[04:17] <lifeless> IsolatedTestCase runs a single test in a separate process on os.fork() supporting systems
[04:17] <lifeless> I plan to write an IsolatedTestSuite that runs its contents in a separate process
[04:17] <lifeless> thats probably ~1 hr to do.
[04:17] <lifeless> (given testing and all)
[04:19] <stub> To meet the Z3 requirements it would need to reinvoke the subprocess if a testcase raised a NotImplementedError in its tearDown method.
[04:20] <stub> erm... but in english
[04:21] <stub> (Which could be done just by building another IsolatedTestSuite on the fly containing the remaining tests and invoking it)
[04:24] <lifeless> stub: ;0
[04:24] <lifeless> stub: though, I think that that is somewhat ugly and problematic. What if the thing that won't tear down is postgresql.
[04:25] <lifeless> stub: I think the Right Thing to do is to stop at that point, and fail. IOW I don't think the requirement is a good or useful one, though maybe I can be convinced.
[04:26] <stub> It is used to say 'this test used a fixture that cannot be torn easily/efficiently without restarting the process'.  Without having to move that test to a seperate suite to run in a seperate process.
[04:28] <stub> Also, it a test raises NotImplementedError in the setUp, that test should be skipped (eg. for tests that can only run on certain platforms or require dependancies that are not installed).
[04:28] <lifeless> stub: I would just make that test derive from IsolatedTestCase which will do that much more easily
[04:28] <spiv> (Hmm, I don't think I've ever seen any form of use of NotImplementedError that wasn't at least a mild abuse... ;)
[04:29] <lifeless> stub: NotImplementedError in the setUp will result in the test failing in stock pyunit. I'm absolutely positive that that is the wrong way to do 'skipped' tests. But that is a different discussion.
[04:29] <stub> lifeless: But that involves messing with the test. If a test uses the FooLayer (or FooResource i would prefer), the FooLayer might change its behavior and start raising NotImplementedError in the Layers teardown.
[04:30] <lifeless> stub: this feels very very dirty to me - its abdicating the responsibility to write good testable software by making the testing environment about 3 OOM more complex.
[04:30] <stub> It is lowering the barrier to write and maintain tests, and isn't anywhere near an order of magniture more complex, let alone 3.
[04:31] <stub> orders of manure  might be approprate for software development ;)
[04:31] <lifeless> uhm, its at least 10 times the complexity - it completely breaks ability to construct a test suite and run it in an adhoc maner.
[04:32] <lifeless> it mixes all three concepts into one messy pond that someone is going to have to maintain.
[04:32] <stub> Why? Your test suite is already forking itself.
[04:33] <stub> This already exists in the Z3 test stuff (except the NotImplementedError in setup, which is trivial to add and Jim agreed with)
[04:33] <lifeless> forking is quite different from having a TestCase able to find out about the remaining tests.
[04:34] <stub> The testcase doesn't need to know about remaining tests
[04:34] <lifeless> I know it exists theere, and having seen what z3 does, thats -why- I think it is worth a throw away and redo.
[04:35] <lifeless> sigh. As an example, the new z3 runner is not compatible with subunit's planned IsolatedTestSuite, because it breaks the abstraction barrier.
[04:35] <lifeless> look, lets not argue about the current implementation, lets talk about the high level goals, and about whether there is a good clean way to achieve them.
[04:36] <stub> Yes - if IsolatedTestSuite impllemented the behavior I dscsribe, Z3 would no longer need to do that
[04:36] <stub> Or you could refactor Z3 to push the forking behavior into the testsuite (reimplementing IsolatedTestSuite effectively).
[04:37] <stub> Although the barrier might still need to be broken for stuff like profiling and code coverage reports - I know little about that.
[04:39] <stub> Goals: A test uses one or more fixtures. Ideally the developer doesn't need to add boilerplate to setUp/tearDown to maintain the fixtures. The test runner can do it in many cases.
[04:39] <stub> Goals 2: All the tests for a project can be run and a profile report generated to identify the slow tests that might need to be optimized or flagged 'run occasionally' rather than 'run always'
[04:40] <stub> Goals 2: All the tests for a project can be run and a code coverage report generated to help identify untested paths.
[04:40] <stub> erm...3
[04:41] <stub> Goals 4: It a fixture/resource/layer/whatever we call it of a test decides that it can't be arsed tearing itself down properly, it can inform the runner/suite/whatever and the next test will be run in a fresh process
[04:41] <lifeless> stub: so, I don't have time to really do a good job of this right now, being about to fly out.
[04:42] <stub> Goals 5: Resources should only be setup/torndown as infrequently as possible. So the suite/runner should sort the order minimizing the invokations.
[04:42] <stub> ok.
[04:42] <lifeless> stub: can you mail me the goals, and I'll see what I can do wearing my consultant hat about offering a unittest compatible approach to doing them, I'll also give a high level 'invariants to preserve' about unittest, which give it the awesome flexability that we see in things like smalltalk and java, and the python community seems to have forgotten.,
[04:43] <lifeless> a note on goals - goals 5 has a useful first sentence, but the second one suggests not understanding the object interactions for unittest, which leads to difficulty. ;0
[04:45] <stub> Then perhaps the existing object interactions for unittest are flawed. My understanding is that the suite is resposible for calling the setup-test-teardown sequence though.
[04:46] <lifeless> its not.
[04:47] <lifeless> the unittest Test interface has one method : 'run(result=None)'
[04:47] <spiv> It's remarkably hard to find a good documentation summarising the xUnit design.
[04:47] <lifeless> I agree.
[04:48] <spiv> (although asking lifeless seems to be a good substitute...)
[04:48] <lifeless> it took me, oh about 2 years from first meeting it before it all sunk in and I realised I grokked it.
[04:48] <lifeless> at that point, I started proslytising :0
[04:48] <stub> Anyway - the resource cannot tear itself down unless something tells it how many tests are going to be using it. And the test can't tear resources down unless they know about all subsequent tests. So the testsuite or testrunner needs to make it happen.
[04:49] <lifeless> stub: I described how to do resources compatibly before, I think, like subunit, that I need to just write proof of concept code.
[04:49] <lifeless> and demonstrate tests that run independently AND optimise in the presence of a smarter Suite.
[04:49] <lifeless> so - drop me that email :)
[04:50] <stub> Tests are never run 'independently' - they always need a runner to invoke them.
[04:50] <lifeless> sorry, thats bullshit
[04:50] <stub> You run your tests without a TextTestRunner or something?
[04:51] <lifeless> absolutely.
[04:51] <stub> How?
[04:52] <lifeless> robertc@lifelesslap:~/source/unittest/subunit$ PYTHONPATH=lib python
[04:52] <lifeless> Python 2.4.1 (#2, Mar 30 2005, 21:51:10)
[04:52] <lifeless> [GCC 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-8ubuntu2)]  on linux2
[04:52] <lifeless> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
[04:52] <lifeless> >>> import subunit
[04:52] <lifeless> >>> suite=subunit.test_suite()
[04:52] <lifeless> >>> import unittest
[04:52] <lifeless> >>> result = unittest.TestResult()
[04:52] <lifeless> >>> suite.run(result)
[04:52] <lifeless> >>>
[04:52] <bob2> *cough*thatcouldbeadoctest*cough*
[04:52] <stub> Ok - so you just implemented your own runner.
[04:52] <lifeless> nope
[04:52] <lifeless> well, you could argue that I guess.
[04:53] <lifeless> but the point is that there is a defined no-dependency from tests executing to a runner
[04:54] <stub> If you said that you required a suite, your manual test runner would be almost as simple and more functionality could be available.
[04:54] <stub> Agh.... you *have* a suite
[04:54] <lifeless> but you cannot mandate a suite either:
[04:55] <lifeless> PYTHONPATH=lib python
[04:55] <lifeless> Python 2.4.1 (#2, Mar 30 2005, 21:51:10)
[04:55] <lifeless> [GCC 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-8ubuntu2)]  on linux2
[04:55] <lifeless> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
[04:55] <lifeless> >>> import subunit.tests.test_test_protocol
[04:55] <lifeless> >>> test = subunit.tests.test_test_protocol.TestTestImports("test_imports")
[04:55] <lifeless> >>> test.run()
[04:56] <lifeless> thats the defined interface for a TestCase. If that doesn't work, you are no longer pyunit compatible.
[04:56] <stub> And that is a problem?
[04:56] <lifeless> and so far I've seen no reason to break that interface.
[04:56] <lifeless> yes, its a problem.
[04:57] <lifeless> unless you want to partition zope related code off from the test of python, you should be compatible with stock python testing tools
[04:58] <lifeless> being compatible lets you do nice things such as use stock gui runners, remote test reports and the like
[04:58] <stub> Unless the changed API is a good thing and it becomes the new pyunit
[04:58] <lifeless> and noone writes them at the moment because *everyone breaks the api* and thus the projects big enough to write such things cannot write them for everyone.
[04:59] <lifeless> I'm deathly afraid of a bad changed api becoming the new pyunit. and what I've seen so far is seriously bad IMO.
[05:00] <lifeless> its less flexible, more tightly coupled. That makes it harder to extend compatibly and will then be locked in untill python 3000.
[05:00] <lifeless> which I really dont want.
[05:00] <lifeless> anyway, I'm getting shorter and shorter here, having just had two projects saying the same thing to me at once.
[05:00] <lifeless> and I fly in 9 hours
[05:00] <lifeless> so.. please email me as soon as possible, I might work on a prototype on the flight
[05:01] <spiv> Working code would be very valuable here.
[05:02] <lifeless> I certainly get that impression
[05:03] <lifeless> sitting down with radix and mumak at the twisted sprint convinced them they can do what they want in a tasteful manner without being gratuitisouly incompatible with pyunit. And they wouldn't be able to use the z3 test runner as easily
[05:05] <stub> Anyway - I think the Z3 test runner could be happily mutated into what we want. Really all that is involved is shuffling some code around a bit. And I'm sure Jim would be happy with any changes that help get it acceped into Python 2.5 provided he doesn't lose desirable functionality.
[05:06] <stub> About the only bit I think could cause difficulty is the profiling and codecoverage which I mentioned before.
[05:06] <lifeless> stub: if thats the case, cool. The _big_ problem at the moment is the manual iteration of the test case composite structure.
[05:06] <lifeless> so - email me and jim if you like.
[05:06] <lifeless> if you do it today, I'll have the email with me on the plane
[05:07] <stub> Yup. Stuff that into an intelligent test suite, and require the layers to implement from a common base class for the setup/teardown only-if-needed stuff to work.
[05:08] <lifeless> the thing to note is that test suites are recursive
[05:08] <lifeless> so some care is needed ;0
[05:10] <stub> Viral intelligent test suites - it notices that something it is going to recurse to is dumb and wraps it ;)
[05:11] <lifeless> mmm
[05:11] <lifeless> it notices its recursing to something foreign and it forks()
[05:11] <lifeless> that would be ok.
[05:25] <dilys> Merge to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[trivial]  production 1.31 config (patch-111<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:52] <dilys> Merge to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Cherrypick patch-2341 (patch-1<EMAIL_ADDRESS><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:18] <dilys> Merge to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Cherrypick patch-2342 (patch-2<EMAIL_ADDRESS><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:23] <dilys> Merge to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>new build (patch-79)
[12:22] <hannosch> jordi: ping?
[12:25] <sivang> hey hannosch
[12:25] <hannosch> hi
[12:26] <hannosch> I am looking for jordi as he wanted to discuss something about how to setup plone in rosetta
[12:43] <sivang> hannosch: seems he away, email him so he would get back to you.
[12:46] <hannosch> He was looking for me on #plone in response to my last email, so I suppose he wants to discuss something directly ;)
[05:29] <salgado> SteveA, around?
[11:21] <sd-tux> hi, i want to download a .po file from rosetta but i can't do it because of this BUG : https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/1978  doe's anybody know how other way to downsload my translations :) ?


[13:57] <rlameiro> afternon
[13:57] <astraljava> o/
[13:58] <rlameiro> :D
[17:24] <squarebracket> anything i should know before i upgrade?
[17:27] <astraljava> squarebracket: That you have made good backups of your /home and other valuable data?
[20:39] <bloom> hi
[20:40] <bloom> problems with ubuntu studio and hp dv6 1350sl
[20:40] <bloom> hangs up at start
[20:41] <bloom> can anyone help me?
[20:49] <holstein> hey bloom
[20:49] <holstein> is this lucid?
[20:49] <holstein> karmic?
[20:57] <bloom> all of two
[20:57] <bloom> 10.04 what is?
[20:57] <bloom> i'm really desperate
[20:57] <bloom> between parenthesis
[20:58] <bloom> i used cracked cubase with cracked reason on my company's pc with xp
[20:59] <bloom> but after i change company and they take back the notebook
[20:59] <bloom> so after i buy a notebook
[20:59] <bloom> this notebook
[20:59] <bloom> with winzozz 7
[20:59] <_guitarman_> where does it hang on boot?
[21:00] <_guitarman_> booting into win7 or ubuntu
[21:00] <bloom> but winzozz 7 hates my cracked cubase
[21:00] <bloom> ubuntu obviously
[21:00] <bloom> loading the kernel
[21:00] <_guitarman_> realtime?
[21:00] <bloom> after the b43 drivers
[21:00] <_guitarman_> or generic
[21:00] <bloom> realtime 64bit
[21:00] <_guitarman_> try the generic boot
[21:01] <_guitarman_> generic kernel boot
[21:01] <bloom> ubuntustudio has the realtime kernel by default or not?
[21:01] <_guitarman_> nope
[21:01] <_guitarman_> generic
[21:01] <bloom> mmm
[21:01] <bloom> really?
[21:01] <_guitarman_> should be - it was on mine
[21:02] <bloom> but doesn't jack need the realtime one?
[21:02] <_guitarman_> do you see the grub menu on boot?
[21:02] <bloom> yes
[21:02] <_guitarman_> bloom: there is a difference between realtime kernel and realtime privs for an app
[21:02] <_guitarman_> you can run jack in realtime in a generic kernel
[21:02] <_guitarman_> try that first
[21:02] <bloom> really i m trying now to install the 32bit version
[21:02] <_guitarman_> oh ...
[21:02] <_guitarman_> 32 bit 10.04?
[21:02] <_guitarman_> lucid ubuntustudio?
[21:02] <bloom> yes
[21:03] <_guitarman_> ah good
[21:03] <bloom> i downloaded all of two
[21:03] <_guitarman_> right.
[21:03] <bloom> but i suppose that on core duo it's better the 64bit version
[21:03] <_guitarman_> dunno. i run 32bit
[21:04] <bloom> really my problems like musician are far beyond these
[21:04] <bloom> the driver for tascam fw1804 doesn't exist
[21:05] <bloom> but in that pc i'm not able to install the system
[21:05] <bloom> the funny thing is that i'm an engineer and i do the programmer
[21:05] <bloom> :)
[21:06] <_guitarman_> heheh doesn't mean you don't get annoyed and not want to deal with a install that didn't work
[21:07] <bloom> that's true
[21:07] <bloom> :P
[21:08] <bloom> i wait now to finish the i386 install and try this
[21:08] <_guitarman_> you are just hoping to use onboard sound?
[21:08] <_guitarman_> not your tascam right=
[21:09] <bloom> tascam is firewire
[21:09] <bloom> it would be good if i could give a hand for writing the driver
[21:10] <bloom> i have also a edirol ua25ex
[21:10] <bloom> i tried ubuntustudio on my eeepc
[21:10] <bloom> and the edirol board (usb) goes
[21:11] <_guitarman_> oh good - it works
[21:11] <bloom> i don't loose so much time to configure it cause on eeepc it was unusable
[21:11] <bloom> too much slow
[21:12] <_guitarman_> yeah thats the processor and ram in those things
[21:12] <_guitarman_> too wimpy
[21:12] <_guitarman_> i edit a podcast on my hp mininote
[21:12] <bloom> but in general i find it more slow and heavy than xp
[21:13] <_guitarman_> ubuntustudio?
[21:13] <bloom> i tried also on a pentium4 with 2.8ghz
[21:13] <bloom> yes
[21:13] <_guitarman_> hmmm, well - think of it this way.
[21:14] <bloom> the first impression was that it's a little bit immature, from a user perspective
[21:14] <_guitarman_> here's a question for you bloom
[21:14] <_guitarman_> can you broadcast your recording session as you are making it under windows xp?
[21:14] <_guitarman_> not through webcam or whatever
[21:14] <bloom> yes
[21:14] <bloom> but
[21:15] <_guitarman_> what software?
[21:15] <bloom> no, i don't know
[21:15] <bloom> and i love linux
[21:15] <bloom> i use only that system
[21:15] <bloom> on work or at home
[21:15] <bloom> i do a question back to you
[21:16] <_guitarman_> yeah.  its not perfect, but there is power in linux audio
[21:16] <_guitarman_> it is coming along. and i choose to use it even if some of it is unpolished
[21:16] <_guitarman_> because the quality of some of it is very good.
[21:16] <bloom> can you record midi and audio with the best linux software ?
[21:16] <bloom> ardour i think
[21:16] <_guitarman_> i really like ardour and the plugins, and hydrogen is a easy drum machine
[21:16] <_guitarman_> no
[21:17] <_guitarman_> bloom: if you must do midi and audio, use qtractor
[21:17] <_guitarman_> if you are willing to do it all audio route midi into softsynth and that as an audio input in ardour then go ardour
[21:17] <bloom> with cubase you can, and it is so useful
[21:17] <bloom> yeah i have to experiment
[21:17] <_guitarman_> yes this is a weak point currently - qtractor is the most useful for this now
[21:17] <_guitarman_> ardour 3.0 in development will solve this but its not ready at all now
[21:18] <bloom> i heard rumours that in the next version of ardour... exactly
[21:18] <_guitarman_> yes
[21:18] <_guitarman_> its true
[21:18] <_guitarman_> its in the works
[21:18] <_guitarman_> and apparently its looking really good
[21:18] <bloom> i think that a couple of years and it surpassess all proprietary systems
[21:19] <bloom> i tried ableton live past few weeks
[21:20] <bloom> we wanted to sync two pcs with midi
[21:20] <bloom> i don't tell you the pain with win7 and drivers
[21:20] <bloom> all my audiocards doesn't work
[21:21] <bloom> to start the drivers you have to press f8 at the start everytime and choose to disable the digital sign control for drivers
[21:22] <bloom> and i notice that midi sync was very unprecise
[21:22] <_guitarman_> bloom: i dont doubt it - i do tech support for windows apps
[21:22] <bloom> i just wonder to write a sync for apps using a lan
[21:23] <bloom> the point is that with gnu/linux you can do such these things
[21:25] <bloom> ok it installs grub
[21:26] <_guitarman_> yeah - thats why i like to run under this platform
[21:26] <bloom> kernel now seems to be 2.6.32-21 generic
[21:26] <_guitarman_> yup
[21:26] <_guitarman_> thats as expected
[21:26] <bloom> it's the menu on grub
[21:27] <_guitarman_> choose that
[21:27] <bloom> oh yeah it starts
[21:27] <_guitarman_> dont bother installing linux-rt like you might have done in the past
[21:27] <bloom> maybe it was 64bit version
[21:27] <_guitarman_> you will need to install the ppa for the kernels that build on the current generic kernels
[21:27] <bloom> that don't go
[21:28] <_guitarman_> the linux-rt in the repo of this is the rt kernel from karmic
[21:28] <_guitarman_> so need ppa ... but try with generic first - it performs pretty decently
[21:28] <bloom> yes
[21:28] <bloom> optimization after
[21:28] <_guitarman_> yup
[21:28] <_guitarman_> get things working first
[21:29] <bloom> yez i'll play around with the various software for a little bit
[21:30] <bloom> and take docs to  see how help for the tascam drivers
[21:53] <RemunJ66> See you. Have a good sleep.
[22:22] <ronj> Hello. I noticed 10.04 has two realtime packages, linux-realtime and linux-rt. I did as usual and installed -rt, which works fine with jack so far. However, could somebody explain me the difference or point me to somewhere it's explained? Didn't find anything.
[22:44] <bloom> hey jackbeat doesn't work in 10.04 i386
[22:44] <bloom> ??
[23:08] <holstein> ronj: thats a great question
[23:08] <holstein> i dont have the answer to that right now
[23:09] <holstein> BUT that is on my list of things to find an answer soon
[23:09] <ronj> :P
[23:09] <ronj> maybe a new method to reach low latencies without the big RT patch
[23:09] <ronj> maybe a plan to CONQUER THE WORLD


[08:38] <agateau> morning!
[08:38] <agateau> having spent the weekend with the new kmail maintainer, I decided to give it another try (call me crazy or something...). Thus a first question: am I the only one who can't send email?
[08:39] <agateau> (that's a quite serious problem for a mail client...)
[08:40] <jussi> agateau: whats your email address?
[08:41] <agateau> jussi: I have been using<EMAIL_ADDRESS>for my tests, why?
[08:42] <jussi> agateau: it appears to have sent. did you get it?
[08:43] <agateau> jussi: yes, got it
[08:43] <agateau> so it works for you
[08:43] <jussi> agateau: so it works here
[08:43] <agateau> mmm
[08:44] <agateau> jussi: are you running 4.7.2?
[08:44] <jussi> jussi@squirrel:~$ apt-cache policy kmail
[08:44] <jussi> kmail:
[08:44] <jussi>   Installed: 4:4.7.2+git111007-0ubuntu1
[08:44] <jussi>   Candidate: 4:4.7.2+git111007-0ubuntu1
[08:46] <agateau> jussi: same here, thanks
[08:46] <agateau> will ping maintainer then
[08:46] <jussi> agateau: you sure you have yoursmtp settings correct?
[08:47] <agateau> jussi: I checked them twice, and I don't get any error: the message just stay there
[08:47] <jussi> agateau: and authentication/security is all good?
[08:47] <agateau> jussi: it is
[08:48] <jussi> strange. Im using gmail for mine, but still.
[08:48] <agateau> jussi: it is the same settings which used to work with kmail 1.x
[08:48] <agateau> my mail host provides multiple smtp configs though, I am going to try a few others
[08:49] <jussi> agateau: double check the port - when I selected tls here it gave me a strange port
[08:49] <agateau> jussi: ok, but then it should at least complain that it doesn't work
[08:50] <jussi> agateau: yes, I agree.
[08:51] <jussi> agateau: also, while I have you - do you have the same spacing issue as me: http://wstaw.org/m/2011/11/28/plasma-desktopGm2166.jpg
[08:51] <jussi> (thats the number of mails for each folder)
[08:51] <agateau> jussi: what is the issue here?
[08:52] <jussi> agateau: those numbers are _really_ close to the divider...
[08:52] <jussi> looks horible
[08:53] <agateau> jussi: ah right, it's close here as well
[08:53] <agateau> jussi: but what I do is just get rid of the column by unselecting it from the header context menu
[08:53] <jussi> agateau: if you speak to the maintainer, please let him know that IMHO that is horrible.
[08:53] <agateau> jussi: i don't really need it
[08:54] <agateau> jussi: it's just a little less annoying than not being able to send mail :)
[08:54] <agateau> i'd rather get rid of the column for good (and keep the info in a tooltip), but people would complain
[08:55] <jussi> agateau: yes, this is very true - and not being able to send mail *and* have no error message iis even worse
[09:12] <agateau> jussi: so... in case you hear someone else with the same problem, the answer was: I probably had a wrong password for my smtp server. kmail just did not ask for it again
[09:13] <agateau> jussi: I restarted akonadi and it prompted me for my password, then send the email
[09:18] <jussi> agateau: ahh, thought it might be something like that.
[11:26] <danimo> debfx: ping?
[11:26] <debfx> danimo: pong
[11:27] <danimo> debfx: had to close https://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTCREATORBUG-6582
[11:27] <danimo> debfx: for OSes with GCC 4.6, you need Qt 4.8
[11:27] <danimo> debfx: luckily this won't be a problem for 12.04
[11:27] <danimo> debfx: and for older versions of Ubuntu (i.e. backports): They use GCC 4.5
[11:28] <danimo> debfx: so a backport of the 12.04 packages should be fine
[11:29] <debfx> heh, that information comes a little late
[11:32] <debfx> danimo: we can't backport it to 11.10 then, right? since 11.10 uses gcc 4.6
[11:33] <danimo> debfx: too bad then, but 11.04 should be possible
[11:33] <danimo> debfx: well, it's always possible to try and backport the patch that fixes the problem. I doubt it will apply cleanly against 4.7.4 though
[11:35] <debfx> not in the official backports since later ubuntu releases need to have at least the same version of the package
[11:39] <danimo> debfx: is Creator compiled without strict-aliasing as well?
[11:40] <debfx> danimo: not unless it's enabled in qtcreator's build system
[11:40] <debfx> nope, you think that's worth a try?
[11:41] <danimo> debfx: better than giving up
[12:03] <danimo> debfx: I did install 12.04 in a vm, and I can try and play a bit with it
[12:48] <debfx> danimo: -fno-strict-aliasing doesn't help
[12:56] <danimo> debfx: damn
[12:57] <danimo> debfx: anyway, 4.8.0 is around the corner
[13:39] <Mamarok> hi everyone :)
[13:40] <Mamarok> Riddell: when can we expect a newer libsoprano4 in Oneiric? You ship a very old version, there have been a lot of bug fixes since 2.7.0, current is 2.7.3 and it is highly recommended to upgrade the version.
[13:41] <Mamarok> most Nepomuk related bug reports from Oneiric are related to it BTW, so a backport is needed
[13:42] <Mamarok> see also http://trueg.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/kde-4-7-3-the-first-nepomuk-stability-release/
[14:12] <ScottK> Mamarok: I think "You ship a very old version" is a little unfair.  Up until two days before Oneiric was released, it was the version upstream recommended.
[14:14] <Mamarok> ScottK: OK, but it should really be upgraded, as it fixes most bugs reported in Oneiric
[14:14] <Mamarok> and it is recommended for the version shipped with KDE 4.7.3 which is in our backports after all
[14:17] <Mamarok> it is actually that backports I was refering to
[14:18] <Mamarok> so if we provide backports they should be complete
[14:18] <ScottK> Generally we just backport KDE SC, but this does seem like a good exception.
[15:09] <apachelogger_> Mamarok, ScottK: until .3 is in updates I do not see a valid case for putting the new soprano into updates
[15:10] <ScottK> apachelogger_: Yeah, I'm looking at it for precise now.
[15:10] <apachelogger_> the new soprano was *only* QA'd against 4.7.3, and considering the history of soprano 'bugfix' updates I'd argue that this is bogusy
[15:10] <apachelogger_> ScottK: makes sense for precise
[15:11] <ScottK> Then we can decide about oneiric.
[15:11] <ScottK> It's actually nepomuk trying to reindex akonadi maildirs on every frickin' resume that's the reason I'm on Thunderbird for mail.
[15:12] <ScottK> So it'd be nice to get it working better.
[15:13] <apachelogger_> ScottK: file a bug as long as upstream cares about fixing bugs :)
[15:13] <ScottK> Right.  I'd like to see if it's fixed already first.
[15:34] <ScottK> Mamarok: I just uploaded it to precise, so that's the first step ...
[15:58] <Mamarok> apachelogger_: I was talking about backports, not about updates, sorry id I expressed myself badly
[15:58] <Mamarok> where KDE 4.7.3 is
[15:58] <Mamarok> if*
[16:06] <apachelogger_> Mamarok: PPA you mean?
[16:06] <Mamarok> apachelogger_: exactly, since it is required for KDE 4.7.3's Nepomuk
[16:07] <agateau> Riddell: hi, when you have time, can you have a look at my new massif-visualizer upload on revu ( http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=9348 )?
[16:34] <apachelogger_> Mamarok: putting it into the .3 ppa would disturb .3 testing as soprano i not part of the KDE SRU exception
[16:35] <apachelogger_> soo the way to go would be: get .3 into -updates, then get SRU soprano into -updates
[17:20] <ScottK> apachelogger_: I think they could be done in separate bugs at the same time.
[17:51] <Riddell> ooh la la
[19:07] <apachelogger_> ScottK: aye, but for PPA testing it certainly makes sense to do it without soprano
[19:08] <apachelogger_> for actual SRU testing we can do both at the same time ... should issues appear that cannot be reproduced without proposed soprano it'd clearly be a problem with the new soprano
[21:17] <ScottK> Is 4.7.3 all done (lost track)?
[21:18] <ScottK> Assuming it is, I think it's OK to put soprano in the PPA.
[21:25] <highvoltage> Darkwing: hey, are you around?
[21:26] <highvoltage> Darkwing: we just talked to the TB about the Edubuntu LTS status, and since it's dependent on Kubuntu's LTS status we're kind of keen to see what's going to happen with it
[21:26] <highvoltage> Darkwing: The TB has another meeting in 2 weeks from now, do you think you could put together a wiki page for Kubuntu's LTS proposal?
[21:27] <ScottK> Kubuntu LTS is in question?
[21:30] <micahg> ScottK: I think it's more about how it wants to be an LTS vs whether or not it will be
[21:31] <ScottK> Not sure what that means?  "How?"
[21:31] <micahg> 3 yr vs 5 yr, what level of support can be expected
[21:31] <micahg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecognizedDerivatives
[21:34] <ScottK> Since KDE is in Main and there's no ISO respins after the next LTS, the additional support requirements for 3 versus 5 for Kubuntu are nil.
[21:54] <utusan> I see all these 4.7.3 updates but aren't those a waste if PP is 4.8?
[22:01] <utusan> And OO is still at 4.7.2 when it should benefit from all these updates
[22:33] <micahg> is someone working on the qt4-x11 .txt files + multiarch = breakage on precise?
[22:34] <micahg> ah, I found the bug


[20:40] <bittin_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090402
[21:25] <ogra> bittin_, ?
[21:34] <bittin_> cya there =)
[21:52] <ogra> :)
[23:49] <playya_> doko, do you want to build gobject-introspection for intrepid?


[00:20] <darkxst> I think I just fixed the user switching ;)
[01:08] <darkxst> jbicha, https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=684926
[01:09] <jbicha> yeah, I had to look that bug up yesterday as I didn't understand your comment about user switching being broken
[01:13] <darkxst> I suppose there hasnt been much testing of gdm on consoleKit
[01:14] <jbicha> especially not 3.6 yet
[01:14] <jbicha> gdm 3.4 landed late in wheezy too
[01:15] <darkxst> well, I guess thats part of the issue with having so many patches against upstream!
[01:16] <darkxst> gdm only has like 20 debian/ubuntu patches
[01:17] <jbicha> yeah, we need to try to get some of those upstream
[01:21] <darkxst> in fact about every gnome package I have looked at has too many patches
[01:21] <jbicha> don't look at gnome-control-center!
[01:22] <jbicha> a lot of the gnome-control-center pain is Ubuntu Design trying to tweak things differently than GNOME
[01:27] <darkxst> yeh I have it actually
[01:27] <darkxst> ^seen
[01:31] <jbicha> we're going to do *something* with gnome-control-center next cycle, it needs more discussion though
[01:31] <jbicha> I'm drafting an email to the ubuntu-desktop list to start up that conversation
[01:32] <darkxst> are ubuntu still going to fork it?
[13:35] <smartboyhw> jbicha, you'd better change the channel topic:P Good evening BTW!
[13:58] <jbicha> smartboyhw: thanks
[13:58] <smartboyhw> NP
[14:01] <smartboyhw> Yay!
[15:26] <everaldo> jbicha, ping
[15:32] <jbicha> everaldo: hi
[15:33] <everaldo> jbicha, hi, you had time to review ubuntu-gnome-default-settings merge?
[15:33] <jbicha> you mean plymouth?
[15:34] <everaldo> yes
[15:34] <jbicha> not yet, I'll look at it this weekend
[15:34] <jbicha> we'll need to get a FFe for it
[15:35] <everaldo> jbicha, what is FFe?
[15:36] <jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
[15:37] <jbicha> we have to get approval from the Release Team to add new features or packages
[15:37] <jbicha> !schedule
[15:37] <everaldo> oh, I really need to read more Ubuntu Wiki
[15:38] <jbicha> I'm pretty confident it would get approved
[15:38] <everaldo> so I will look it again to be sure nothing is wrong
[15:38] <jbicha> what might be a bigger problem is a ubiquity-slideshow; we may end up shipping this cycle without one if the translators don't approve
[15:39] <everaldo> jbicha, I can work on slideshow, can you give me directions where to start?
[15:39]  * everaldo have lots of time on next 20 days :)
[15:40] <jbicha> bug 1051162, the code to start with is lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[15:41] <jbicha> you can get ideas from http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.6/
[15:41] <everaldo> very nice!
[15:41] <everaldo> will try to get something until monday
[15:41] <jbicha> we're way behind schedule for a ubiquity slideshow so there's no guarantee we'll be able to get it in
[15:43] <everaldo> no problem, if we can't get it at leat I will learn a little more about lauchpad and ubuntu
[15:43] <everaldo> last days I learn a lot, be a developer is not necessary be a ubuntu developer :)
[15:44] <jbicha> that's right, there's so much about programming I don't know
[15:44] <everaldo> one last question since I know you are busy these days
[15:45] <everaldo> jbicha, about syslinux and grub
[15:45] <everaldo> do you think we must use the same blue blinds
[15:45] <everaldo> or just a solid blue?
[15:45] <jbicha> I think solid blue would be best for grub & syslinux
[15:46] <jbicha> I want to do the same thing Ubuntu does for the live ISO with the symbolic icon "press a key for more options" since it doesn't need translation
[15:47] <jbicha> I was just using the other since that's what the Ubuntu GNOME Shell Remix had and at least it was blue
[15:47] <everaldo> ok, I will fix grub colors until tomorow
[15:48] <jbicha> I think we want a deeper blue than the UGSR used though
[15:49] <jbicha> sure, thanks for your help!
[15:51] <everaldo> I will take one of blue from strips
[15:51] <everaldo> the darker one
[16:01] <everaldo> humm, looks like slideshow need some text
[16:01] <everaldo> so, no translation
[16:01] <everaldo> not possible to include on 12.10
[16:01] <jbicha> we may still be able to include it, as Ubuntu GNOME Remix isn't an official flavor yet
[16:02] <jbicha> we might use a separate source package, but we'll have to see what happens once we've got the code ready for the right people to review
[16:03] <everaldo> and I can even translate to at least 3 languages :-)
[16:09] <everaldo> jbicha, do we need to create a bug report to plymouth too?
[16:09] <everaldo> I mean, it is the "default" to create a bug report before work on something
[16:10] <jbicha> everaldo: we'll need a bug report to apply for feature freeze exception for the new plymouth
[16:11] <jbicha> you can file the bug report if you like, and I can subscribe ubuntu-release & talk to the Release Team after I review it
[16:11] <everaldo> ok, I will do it
[19:36] <darkxst> jbicha, are you able to upload a new gdm?
[19:36] <darkxst> with this http://git.gnome.org/browse/gdm/commit/?id=1e72815156834468b57f3e5ac1960950c2e9519f
[19:41] <jbicha> darkxst: yes, would you be interested in making that a debdiff?
[19:43] <darkxst> ok
[20:02] <darkxst> jbicha, do I apply the patch in tree or via patches folder?
[20:20] <jbicha> in patches folder please
[20:50] <darkxst> jbicha, is this correct? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gdm/+bug/1058338
[20:58] <jbicha> darkxst: it's mostly correct! next time could you add the LP bug number to the changelog
[20:58] <jbicha> and your patch was reversed (- instead of +)
[20:58] <darkxst> oh oops
[20:59] <darkxst> I will fix,
[21:02] <darkxst> fixed
[21:04] <darkxst> I suppose I should open a merge for my casper password dialog patch?
[21:08] <jbicha> darkxst: sure, that's what we basically shipped with the Beta, right?
[21:09] <darkxst> yes
[21:10] <jbicha> I tried moving the gnome-shell favorites change to 25adduser like you suggested but it didn't seem to work
[21:11] <jbicha> ok, I uploaded your gdm, I put the bugnumber on a new line because otherwise the line was too long
[21:11] <darkxst> ah, ok. thanks
[21:11] <jbicha> thanks for finding the problem and the fix!
[21:12] <darkxst> jbicha, did you add /root/ to the path?
[21:12] <darkxst> (Casper runs outside the chroot)
[21:13] <jbicha> ah, no I didn't
[21:16] <jbicha> ok, I pushed that change to the build script
[21:25] <darkxst> so, I could not find how they lockdown gnome-panel logout
[21:26] <darkxst> and the key in 15autologin, does not appear to even exist
[21:27] <darkxst> atleast when running gnome sessions
[21:34] <jbicha> yeah, that problem is a bit tricky, I'm sure we'll find it eventually
[21:35] <jbicha> ah, it's being done in indicator-session :(
[21:36] <jbicha> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~indicator-applet-developers/indicator-session/trunk.12.10/view/head:/src/session-menu-mgr.c#L447
[21:37] <jbicha> I think it would be better if that code were in casper, but I don't think they'll want to change that at this point in the release cycle
[21:43] <darkxst> hmm, thats ok, looks like if we add the key back in, it will use it
[21:46] <darkxst> meh, or not
[21:48] <darkxst> can't fix that then
[21:50] <darkxst> unless we change the username
[21:54] <jbicha> darkxst: yes I'd like to see what happens if we change the live username as a hack for 12.10
[22:02] <darkxst> oh it gets the username from the first word in the image title
[22:02] <darkxst> ie. Ubuntu GNOME Remix 12.10 "Quantal Quetzal" - Alpha amd64(20120927)
[22:32] <jbicha> darkxst: I'm getting bug 1048420
[22:32] <darkxst> jbicha, that seems ok
[22:33] <jbicha> which is ok?
[22:33] <darkxst> changing username
[22:42] <darkxst> jbicha, I take it you still have the default settings in g-c-c -> brightness + lock?
[22:44] <jbicha> yeah
[22:44] <darkxst> ubuntu patch that
[22:55] <darkxst> actually that option is created by an ubuntu patch
[22:55] <darkxst> I presume it works in unity?
[23:46] <darkxst> jbicha does calling org.gnome.screenSaver.lock() (from d-feet), lock screen?
[23:57] <jbicha> um, I didn't know you could call stuff from d-feet
[23:57] <jbicha> ah, yes
[23:57] <darkxst> just double click on the method and click execute
[23:58] <jbicha> ctrl+alt+l works too


[18:42] <MTecknology> echowarp: Thanks for everything you're working on :D
[18:43] <echowarp> no problem


[00:59] <guiverc> @Leokolb, or anyone (esp. if you're not just using english); would we benefit from a doc on discourse related to fcitx; https://askubuntu.com/questions/1378278/making-fcitx-work-under-lubuntu-21-10 & Gunnar's comment..
 remind me what fcitx is again :P
 (Dead Brain Confirmed)
 Input method framework. https://fcitx-im.org/wiki/Fcitx (re @teward001: remind me what fcitx is again :P)
 ah right
 fcitx - have never used it ..is it not for Table, Pinyin and QuWei input methods? (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <guiverc> @Leokolb, or anyone (esp. if you're not just using english); would we benefit from a doc on discourse related to fcitx; https://askubuntu.com/questions/1378278/making-fcitx-work-under-lubuntu-21-10 & Gunnar's comment..)
 I don't really use it and am worried that part of the manual is bad
[03:23] <guiverc> I've never had to use it; have only loaded it in live tests and ensured I could get it running... Yes most docs I see for it relate to asian/chinese (pinyun/quwei is beyond me)...
[03:24] <guiverc> I don't think the manual is bad @lynorian... IF I conclude we could do something better, I'd say so..  I believe I know what Gunnar was talking about; but it's not an issue for me (but it could be my lack of knowledge of fcitx colors my opinion)


[07:29] <Dabbu> can any one tell me what we r doing here and for what this IRC is..
[07:30] <Dabbu> any human here
[07:30] <perlluver> Irc is a network chat protocol, to talk to alot of people at once, like a chat room, and this is a Ubuntu Clasroom
[07:31] <Dabbu> perlluver:ND WHt we RE SUPPOSED TO DO HERE
[07:31] <perlluver> They have classes here about things pertaining to Ubuntu, Python, other things like that
[07:31] <perlluver> nothing going on now
[07:32] <perlluver> you can chat in one of the many rooms, there are quite a few
[07:32] <Dabbu> ok
[07:33] <Dabbu> thanks
[07:33] <perlluver> np
[09:39] <daubers> Morning all
[15:02] <spiritssight> ok now I have restarted x
[16:12] <Dabbu1> any human here >?
[16:12] <jrib> -_-
[16:12] <jrib> what's up Dabbu1?
[16:13] <Dabbu1> nothing is happening herer?
[16:13] <jrib> nope, developer week finished yesterday
[16:13] <jrib> the topic should have a link to logs and upcoming classes
[16:14] <Dabbu1> ok


[23:39] <Unit193> bluesabre: Erm, did you see https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-settings/-/issues/390?


[16:36] <tyhicks> hello
[16:36] <mdeslaur> \o
[16:36] <tyhicks> #startmeeting
[16:36] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb  5 16:36:58 2018 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:36] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[16:37] <tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
[16:37] <tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[16:37] <tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
[16:37] <tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
[16:40] <tyhicks> mdeslaur: go ahead and we'll come back to Jamie
[16:40] <mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
[16:40] <mdeslaur> I'm about to publish systemd and squid3 updates
[16:41] <mdeslaur> and I will then do a final round of testing on qemu and libvirt before publishing them
[16:41] <nacc> mdeslaur: ping re:php7.0 as well
[16:41] <mdeslaur> nacc: ah yes, I'll work on that after, thanks
[16:41] <mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie, you're up
[16:41] <nacc> mdeslaur: thank you
[16:41] <sbeattie> I'm on bug triage this week
[16:42] <sbeattie> I'm still working on my gcc-4.6 retpoline backports
[16:42] <tyhicks> sbeattie: and we need to do some revert uploads to artful and xenial
[16:43] <sbeattie> I also have to yank the ppc64el changes for xenial based on IBM's advice (I already did so for gcc7, in the security proposed ppa)
[16:43] <sbeattie> tyhicks: yeah.
[16:43] <tyhicks> sbeattie: gcc-7 is ready for me to review/sponsor?
[16:43] <sbeattie> Also, apparently there's some cross-compilers that need to be is sync.
[16:43] <tyhicks> oh, right
[16:43] <sbeattie> tyhicks: let me double check the test-results packages, but should be..
[16:43] <tyhicks> ok, I'll hold off
[16:44] <sbeattie> I need to look a the libreoffice test failure that popped with the xenial gcc in proposed.
[16:44] <sbeattie> and I need to do some additional verification of the 4.8 backport before it goes into proposed.
[16:45] <sbeattie> (I did point the kernel team at it, but I don't know if htey've used it to build anything)
[16:45] <sbeattie> Anyway, that will likely consume my week.
[16:46]  * jdstrand is here. sorry-- was pulled aside
[16:46] <tyhicks> jdstrand: go ahead
[16:46] <sbeattie> Oh I might look at what it would take to enable by default for bionic and start some test builds.
[16:46]  * sbeattie is really done
[16:46] <jdstrand> ok, I'll go
[16:46] <tyhicks> sbeattie: ah, that would be nice
[16:47] <jdstrand> This week I plan to:
[16:47] <jdstrand> - catch up on email and prioritize/put into trello various snapcraft summit outcomes
[16:47] <jdstrand> - continue to be responsive to snapd PRs (in particular, layouts and portals)
[16:47] <jdstrand> - finish up review-tools updates and request store sync
[16:47] <jdstrand> - pickup steam-support investigation
[16:47] <jdstrand> - pickup stacking demo
[16:47] <jdstrand> - lxd snap regression wrt confinement as have time
[16:47] <jdstrand> - org.gnome.ScreenCast interface as have time
[16:47] <jdstrand> - strict mode snaps on livecd as have time
[16:47] <jdstrand> that's it from me. I think tyhicks is next?
[16:48] <tyhicks> I should finally get a chance to work on the LSM stacking demo this week
[16:48] <tyhicks> I also have several embargoed issues
[16:49] <tyhicks> jj is out
[16:49] <tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead
[16:49] <sarnold> i'm in the happy place this week
[16:50] <sarnold> I'm working on the papi mir, will finish that soonish, then move on down the list, I'm thinking openjpeg2 next
[16:50] <sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
[16:50] <chrisccoulson> I've got a chromium update to test and publish
[16:51] <chrisccoulson> I'm also investigating some rustc test failures. I'd like to think that won't swallow the entire week, but I'm not that hopeful
[16:52] <tyhicks> :(
[16:52] <chrisccoulson> then once I'm finished with rust, I need to update cargo
[16:53] <chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
[16:53] <ratliff> I'm on CVE triage this week.
[16:54] <ratliff> I got the historic CVE triage data imported into influxdb with kpi charts created. Now I want to experiment with other ways of looking at the data. Also decide which of the other charts to move over to influxdb
[16:54] <ratliff> I have a few internal assignments that will take up a large part of my time.
[16:54] <ratliff> on to you, leosilva
[16:54] <leosilva> I'm in the happy place this week
[16:55] <leosilva> Just finished my clamav update and pushed it few minutes ago...
[16:55] <leosilva> other than that I'll keep my hunting during the week and update packges.
[16:55] <leosilva> that's it for me,
[16:55] <leosilva> tyhicks: it's up to you
[16:55] <tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
[16:55] <tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team suggests that contributors look into merging Debian security updates in community-supported packages. If you would like to help Ubuntu but are not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. See http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/ for available merges and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details on preparing Ubuntu security
[16:56] <tyhicks> updates. If you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-hardened. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
[16:56] <tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
[16:56] <tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
[16:57] <tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
[16:57] <tyhicks> #endmeeting
[16:57] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Feb  5 16:57:15 2018 UTC.
[16:57] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-02-05-16.36.moin.txt
[16:57] <leosilva> tks tyhicks !
[16:57] <ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
[16:57] <jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
[16:57] <sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
[16:58] <mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
[17:00] <sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks


[11:56] <ogra_> bug #12345
[11:56] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 12345 in isdnutils (Ubuntu) "isdn does not work, fritz avm (pnp?)" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/12345
[11:56] <ogra_> aha


[08:30] <ajmitch> robitaille: when's the next TB meeting?
[08:40] <robitaille> ajmitch:  it hasn't been announced yet
[08:40] <ajmitch> how irritating
[08:41] <robitaille> they are often announced at the very last minute
[08:41] <ajmitch> it's hard for those of us in different timezones when that happens
[08:41] <robitaille> last one was Feb 14, so my guess is that it will be Feb 28.  They are always at 20:00 utc
[08:42] <ajmitch> sometimes I wish they'd go back to rotating the meeting times
[08:42] <ajmitch> since it can shut out a number of people from attending at all
[08:43] <jsgotangco> 20UTC can be so evil to us
[08:44] <ajmitch> yeah
[08:44] <ajmitch> but it's nothing we can change by complaining at the moment
[08:45] <freeflying> ajmitch: and that will be 4:00 AM here ,hehe
[11:25] <Seveas> ajmitch, freeflying: the problem is that 75% of the CC is in london - times have to suit them or there is no meeting...
[04:04] <Kyral> Chimata....the meeting is today at 1500 EST?
[08:24] <Kyral> 30 mins to CC Meeting?
[08:25] <lucas> yes
[08:25] <lucas> but 20 mins to football matches
[08:25] <lucas> guess who wins :)
[08:25] <Kyral> mmkay I'll be here but I'll also be studying...not that I have anything to do this time around, not supporting anyone
[08:53] <Kyral> Man I cannot wait until GNOME 2.14 comes out fully
[08:53] <Kyral> that new Admin center looks nice :D
[08:53] <LaserJock> Kyral: URL?
[08:53] <Kyral> It was on Slashdot recently...I don't remember :(
[08:54] <Burgwork> Kyral, you can already play with pessulus and sabayon on ubuntu
[08:54] <LaserJock> Kyral: np
[08:54] <robotgeek> http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot?m=3820
[08:56] <LaserJock> ohhh, I like the gnome-terminal speedup
[08:57] <Kyral> I recall Jeff giving a brief presentation on Sabayon during UBZ
[08:58] <Kyral> oooh I love that new Yelp hing
[08:58] <Kyral> Indexed Man and Info pages
[08:58] <LaserJock> yeah
[08:58] <Kyral> YEA!
[08:59] <LaserJock> lol, they must be going after Ubuntu users - "As every dapper man knows, girls go crazy for smooth looking graphics." ;-)
[08:59] <tepsipakki> last time I tried sabayon the Xnest-server just crashed, need to try it now..
[08:59] <Kyral> lol
[09:00] <Kyral> Hmm
[09:00] <Kyral> I need to email the GEdit dev about adding in Enriched Text support
[09:00] <Kamion> elmo: here?
[09:00] <Kamion> mako: here?
[09:00] <Kamion> no sabdfl it seems, I imagine he's travelling
[09:00] <Kamion> still
[09:00] <elmo> I'm here
[09:00] <Kyral> Yah did anyone catch the bit about him in DW Weekly?
[09:00] <nalioth> robotgeek: started what?
[09:00] <elmo> and yeah sabdfl is, flying according to the board in the office
[09:01] <robotgeek> nalioth: :)
[09:01] <Kamion> Kyral: please move off-topic stuff elsewhere, personally I'd like to get this meeting over reasonably quickly so I can enjoy the evening :-)
[09:01] <mako> Kamion: yes
[09:01] <Kamion> excellent, quorum
[09:01] <Kyral> Kamion: it was my last bit :P
[09:01] <Seveas> coolness
[09:01] <Kamion> Increase the number of IRC ops/moderators in the major Ubuntu channels, especially #ubuntu. The 24hr nature of the channel - and the fact that the current ops are all busy people - has meant inadequate moderator coverage at times -- Madpilot
[09:01] <Seveas> let's get started
[09:01] <mako> a minute early even
[09:01] <Kamion> Seveas proposed Brian Burger and Paul O'Malley
[09:02] <Seveas> madpilot can not attend the meeting, but the request is clear
[09:02] <Kamion> we've talked to Brian before for membership; I think Paul too although I don't remember the conversation clearly
[09:02] <Kamion> do we have any current #ubuntu ops here who can give us the current ops list?
[09:02] <Seveas> Brian Burger is a member, Paul not yes
[09:02] <ompaul> Kamion, no I have never addressed this
[09:02] <mako> i spent a decent amount of time with paul in the past
[09:02] <Kamion> ompaul: o
[09:02] <Kamion> k
[09:02] <Seveas> Kamion, /msg chanserv access #ubuntu list
[09:03] <ompaul> mako, I still owe you coffee :)
[09:03] <robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCOperators
[09:03] <Kamion> ah yes, this week it works for non-ops
[09:03] <Seveas> Kamion, during the bot attacks I set the 'secure' option on - didn't know it made all lists unavailable. I changed that when I heard this
[09:04] <Kamion> I agree that that list is probably not quite extensive enough for the current size and activity level of #ubuntu
[09:04] <Seveas> and quite a few on that list aren't very active in #ubuntu
[09:04] <mako> absolutely
[09:04] <Burgwork> I noticed that as well
[09:04] <Kamion> we could check with those people and remove them if they agree
[09:05] <Kamion> there's not much point having inactive ops around
[09:05] <mako> well, the currently problem is going to be solved by removing people
[09:05] <Seveas> Ok, I'll poke around for that
[09:05] <mako> that might be a good idea moving forward but we solve the immediate problem first
[09:05] <Kamion> what timezones do Brian and Paul occupy?
[09:05] <Seveas> is it ok to give myself a higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke jdub every time?
[09:06] <Seveas> paul is .ie, brian .ca
[09:06] <ompaul> I am in Dublin
[09:06] <Kyral> Might I make a suggestion? That we have an Op for every Timezone (at least one per zone)?
[09:06] <Burgwork> madpilot is -8, same as mdz, robitaille and myself
[09:06] <Kamion> Kyral: bit tricky for e.g. UTC-2 ;-)
[09:06] <Kyral> eh?
[09:07] <Seveas> Kyral, we need a few more from .au and related, if you have candidates: talk to us
[09:07] <lucas> I'm not really happy with the idea of having non-members being ops
[09:07] <Kyral> oyah lol
[09:07] <Kamion> there
[09:07] <Kyral> Seveas: it was just an idea lol
[09:07] <Kyral> I mean itt would mean someone was up all the time
[09:07] <Seveas> lucas, generally I'd agree but for ompaul I'm happy to make an exception (and he should be poked to apply for membership)
[09:07] <Kamion> we were ok there while bob2 and daniels were active
[09:07] <jjesse> is it mostly australia/asian time that is missing?
[09:08] <Kyral> someone poke ajmitch for it :P
[09:08] <Seveas> jjesse, that part of the world is 'understaffed'
[09:08] <Kamion> I have no objection to Madpilot, and perhaps we can add ompaul pending his membership
[09:09] <Kamion> but somebody really ought to look out for good people in the understaffed timezones
[09:09] <ompaul> Kamion, consider me poked
[09:09] <Kamion> I don't think we can do that here
[09:09] <Seveas> Kamion, then let me repeat my question: is it ok for me to give myself a higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke jdub every time?
[09:09] <ompaul> Kamion, I'll stick it in for the next one
[09:09] <Seveas> robotgeek, #kubuntu ops are generally not appointed by the CC
[09:10] <robotgeek> Seveas: hmm, okay.
[09:10] <Riddell> I appoint them
[09:10] <Kamion> Seveas: I would be happy with that, but you should check with jdub that he doesn't mind
[09:10] <Seveas> Kamion, will do
[09:10] <Seveas> do we need a quorum vote for these 2 issue or can we continue?
[09:10] <Kamion> (and mention that I recommend having more than one person who can create ops, perhaps)
[09:10] <Kamion> elmo, mako: any objections to Madpilot and ompaul as #ubuntu ops?
[09:10] <mako> absolutely no objections
[09:11] <elmo> no
[09:11] <Seveas> ok, next
[09:11] <Seveas> WikiLicensing
[09:12] <Seveas> "ready to go" means that the E-mail will be sent soon?
[09:13] <Kamion> hang on Seveas :)
[09:13] <Kyral> lol
[09:13] <Kamion> mako: did you ever get a chance to talk to that lawyer?
[09:14] <Kamion> about the wikipedia PD-self template?
[09:14] <Kamion> I rewrote the e-mail earlier, and would appreciate elmo and/or mako eyeballing it
[09:14] <mako> i think i asked greg and didn't hear back.. i should email SFLC or the wikipedia lawyer who i met a couple weeks ago
[09:14] <Kamion> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing/Email
[09:14] <Kyral> Someone make sure I am right on this, we are considering a CC-PD license (I apologize for asking this almost every meeting, school is owning my brain)
[09:14] <mako> ok
[09:14] <heno> there is still a technical task to be done in extracting those email addresses from the launchpad and moin records. So in that sense we are not ready to go
[09:15] <Kamion> Kyral: more or less yes, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2006-01-24.html to catch up
[09:15] <Seveas> Kyral, yes, CC-PD with additional statements for countries where PD is not allowed
[09:15] <Kamion> well, just PD, not CC-PD really
[09:15] <Kamion> it hardly makes a difference for PD :)
[09:15] <Kyral> Kamion: ty
[09:15] <mako> yes
[09:16] <Kamion> heno: is that a big task?
[09:16] <elmo> it's a bit comma tastic, but looks ok on first read
[09:16] <Kamion> I tend to overuse commas, feel free to reword as necessary
[09:16] <heno> Kamion: probably not for someone eho knows both systems. It's slightly beyond me though, I'm affraid
[09:16] <Hobbsee> morning all, sorry i'm late, i dont feel too well today
[09:17] <mako> jean-baptiste soufron, the primary lawyer for wikipedia, should be online soon and i can corner him
[09:17] <Kamion> heno: do we have somebody who knows how to do both, or will it be a coordination task?
[09:17] <elmo> Kamion: it's, okay, I'm, not, really, fussed
[09:17] <Kamion> mako: if you could let mdke know what the result of that is, that'd be good
[09:17] <mako> Kamion: ok
[09:18] <mako> it looks fine to me
[09:18] <Kamion> ok, I propose we let mdke coordinate the rest of this and move on, then
[09:18] <mako> my major concerns before seem to be addressed
[09:18] <heno> I think Gustavo or Adam should have no problem with it
[09:18] <Kamion> elmo: my wife says "now if you'd written that it would only have had two commas in it"
[09:19] <Kamion> ok, betterwikidocs
[09:19] <Seveas> BetterWikiDocs specification - can a server be made available to deploy this? (mdke and hno73) <-- Doesn't sound like a CC issue to me, TB rather
[09:19] <mako> neither really
[09:19] <elmo> err, yeah, neither
[09:19] <Kamion> I have to say I think it would be better to move the developer documentation
[09:19] <Kamion> than to move the user stuff
[09:19] <mako> i'talk to mark/jane
[09:19] <Seveas> kamion++
[09:20] <Kamion> it's much easier to track down all developers and say "please use developer.ubuntu.com now" or whatever
[09:20] <mako> sure
[09:20] <Seveas> the wiki has already moved several times
[09:20] <Kamion> we had udu.wiki.ubuntu.com, I never really worked out why we merged
[09:20] <Seveas> having a developer.ubuntu.com also attracts new developers ;)
[09:21] <heno> Kamion: but there is also lots of stuff that is neither developer stuff nor docs, but people's private pages and such
[09:21] <Kyral> hehe
[09:21] <heno> 'my experience with ubuntu' etc
[09:21] <sorush20> hi
[09:21] <sorush20> comuunity council people..
[09:21] <Seveas> heno, then et the docteam fold them into the official docs, official docs shouldn't be a wiki...
[09:21] <jjesse> which is what is happening with h.u.com correct?
[09:21] <jjesse> help.ubuntu.com
[09:21] <Seveas> 'them' being the good documentation wikipage
[09:21] <Kamion> heno: right, not sure I have a good answer for that
[09:21] <mdz> I'm not particularly fussed either way about which wiki the specs go in, so long as the links from Launchpad work
[09:22] <Burgwork> Seveas, we are looking at a long term plan for better wiki docs. Moving them is the first step of that
[09:22] <Kamion> things start out as randomly-hacked-together pages, and move up to the status of documentation
[09:22] <heno> Kamion: but, yes moving the dev stuff would also help
[09:22] <Burgwork> Seveas, as the doc team cannot agree on further steps, but we do agree on moving it
[09:22] <Kamion> mdz: and as long as we stop moving them at some point. :-)
[09:22] <heno> if we had specs in a separate wiki we could structure it better
[09:23] <heno> dapper/SpecName
[09:23] <Seveas> Burgwork, then I think the plan should be worked out completely before we start moving things around for no apparent reason
[09:23] <Kamion> heno: also seems to me that the search problems could be addressed by cleverer searching that knew how to search multiple sites
[09:23] <Kamion> assuming they were both on the same machine, I guess
[09:23] <heno> and then it would be obvious what generation it was
[09:23] <Burgwork> Seveas, we can't agree on two wikis or one for the doc wiki
[09:23] <heno> we could do that anyway of course
[09:24] <heno> Kamion: the 'search problem' is that you get too many hits, not too few
[09:24] <Kamion> let's assume we had a separate "official documentation wiki". what would the process be for migrating a page somebody hacked together to the doc wiki?
[09:24] <Burgwork> Kamion, that is the part under contention
[09:24] <Kamion> heno: I'm referring to "users having to search more than one place" in BetterWikiDocs
[09:25] <heno> they would be encouraged to start it there in the first place
[09:25] <heno> (sounds unrealistic actually)
[09:25] <Seveas> heno, great, so another wiki filled with half-baked pages....
[09:25] <heno> that would clearly work better for devs
[09:25] <jjesse>  the "official" docs would have to be editable (if that's a word) by only wiki team members
[09:25] <Kamion> yeah, that doesn't sound overly plausible to me I must say
[09:25] <Burgwork> Seveas, I disagree
[09:25] <Kamion> jjesse: which will exclude a lot of contributors
[09:26] <robotgeek> jjesse: which kind beats the point of a wiki
[09:26] <Kamion> people start out editing a few pages of the wiki and *then* become wiki team members
[09:26] <Kamion> maybe
[09:26] <jjesse> but if the "official" docs are moved from the more generic docs
[09:26] <mako> why don't we just have pages with categories
[09:26] <jjesse> then they can be better maintained
[09:26] <Seveas> mako++
[09:26] <mako> with articles marked as good
[09:26] <ompaul> well look at it as wiki --> docs so in the wiki it is a $factoid if it makes it to docs or there is a better existing doc then the wiki page gets a reference to the other page at the top and a log of visits but that is all too much for here
[09:26] <Seveas> but then we need people who organize that
[09:26] <mako> wikipedia has 1,000,000 articles
[09:26] <mako> or near that in english
[09:27] <Kamion> and most of the wikipedia articles I ever actually hit in practice are really good
[09:27] <Burgwork> mostly the good articles are marked by not having CategoryCleanup on them
[09:27] <mako> and it's prefectly readable because they have many categories
[09:27] <ompaul> what does wiki.ubuntu have in it?
[09:27] <mako> Kamion: yes, but they also have articles marked as "good" and "featured"
[09:27] <Burgwork> ompaul, everything, that is the problem
[09:27] <Kamion> mako: yeah
[09:27] <ompaul> Burgwork, no numbers
[09:27] <mako> Kamion: and if you limit your search to those, you'll get good stuff
[09:27] <mako> the point is, that there's no need to create seperate wikis
[09:27] <ompaul> Burgwork, if you measure it you can do something with it
[09:27] <heno> using categories doesn't solve the search problem
[09:27] <mako> you may really want EVERYTHING on a topic
[09:27] <Burgwork> we still have the issue of seperation of help content
[09:27] <mako> heno: it does if you can limit your search to within a particular category
[09:27] <Seveas> categories and 'good/bad/needs work' tags will help
[09:27] <Kamion> heno: it does if you make the search exclude CategoryCleanup by default
[09:27] <Kamion> e.g.
[09:28] <Burgwork> people simply don't go to wiki.ubuntu.com for help
[09:28] <heno> unless we improved the search to include/exclude certain pages
[09:28] <mako> Burgwork: what makes you think that having they'll go to the new split set of wikis then?
[09:28] <Burgwork> Kamion, but I want my searches to include it
[09:28] <jjesse> Burgwork: i disagree
[09:28] <Kamion> Burgwork: --> "by default" <--
[09:28] <Mithrandir> Burgwork: "default"
[09:28] <heno> right, but that requires development
[09:28] <Kyral> most of our "profile" pages also on are the Wiki yes?
[09:28] <jjesse> Burgwork: i start at w.u.c and then do a google search if i can't find it
[09:28] <mako> heno: that is precisely what i'm suggesting
[09:28] <lucas> I'd prefer to have a CategoryUserDoc rather than a CategoryCleanup (means pages would be out by default)
[09:28] <Kamion> heno: I don't think we can get away from that - it's not a trivial problem
[09:28] <Burgwork> Kamion, I was pointing out that there are two many use cases for the main wiki
[09:29] <Burgwork> s/two/too
[09:29] <heno> mako: I think that would be good
[09:29] <Seveas> Kyral, they (should) have "CategoryHomepage", easy to filter too
[09:29] <mako> the time necessary to have moin have a search that is restricted by categories is probably not significantly less than the time needed to maintain a farm of wikis
[09:29] <heno> but a separate spec perhaps
[09:29] <Kamion> Burgwork: dunno, I'm beginning to think that's a feature
[09:29] <Burgwork> Kamion, no it is not when you run across a spec when you want help
[09:29] <Kamion> Burgwork: that's a search problem
[09:29] <Mithrandir> mako: you'd want cross-wiki search, though.
[09:29] <mako> specs *should* be marked as specs
[09:29] <mako> and docs should be marked as docs
[09:29] <Burgwork> then we need to be ruthless about moving specs under a main spec page
[09:29] <mako> and there should be a prominent link to a doc only search
[09:30] <Burgwork> so that the link would be wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/Blah
[09:30] <mako> Burgwork: sure
[09:30] <jjesse> the doc team then should be the one always cleaning up the wiki or expected to keep the wiki clean
[09:30] <Kamion> Burgwork: it's a feature that, when we have a new project that needs wiki pages, it can just start rather than having to get a new wiki domain set up
[09:30] <Kamion> Burgwork: that would be fine
[09:30] <heno> splitting it up also helps solve the scaling problem though
[09:30] <mako> Burgwork: we'd have be ruthless about moving them off the wiki in the alternative situation
[09:30] <Burgwork> still ooks like a hack to me
[09:30] <Kamion> we'd have to go through and fix up links from launchpad
[09:30] <Kamion> Burgwork: it's what categories are FOR. :-)
[09:30] <mako> well, why not in-text categories
[09:30] <mako> like WP
[09:30] <heno> which is that the wiki will eventually outgrow the hardware
[09:31] <mako> we could just have a {{spec}} tag or something
[09:31] <heno> elmo: ^ ?
[09:31] <Kamion> heno: I don't think developer specifications are going to be the cause of that
[09:31] <Burgwork> Kamion, yes, but what does a CategoryNetworking do on the main wiki? specs? docs?
[09:31] <mako> the way they're implemented doesn't really matter
[09:31] <Burgwork> do you see the issue?
[09:31] <Kamion> Burgwork: no
[09:31] <Kamion> Burgwork: perhaps you could explain better?
[09:31] <mako> Burgwork: both
[09:31] <Burgwork> mako, that is much much worse
[09:31] <mako> Burgwork: you can belong to CategoryNetworking and CategorySpec
[09:31] <robotgeek> i am sure the search can be hacked to exclude specs, provided they are all in one Category
[09:32] <elmo> heno: I don't think that's a good reason _by itself_ to split stuff up, we've plenty of avenues to explore to scale stuff up before going there
[09:32] <Burgwork> but then those that want to search specs are screwed
[09:32] <Kamion> I don't see a lot of value of a spec having any other category
[09:32] <robotgeek> with an option to search advanced?
[09:32] <heno> elmo: ok, thanks
[09:32] <Burgwork> I do
[09:32] <Kamion> there aren't enough of them for that, and they're generally clearly named
[09:32] <ompaul> search should not discriminate
[09:32] <mako> alright
[09:32] <Burgwork> I want to see all networkign specs
[09:32] <mako> Kamion: ok
[09:32] <Burgwork> another major issue is time by doc team members cleaning non-dcos on the wiki
[09:32] <Burgwork> I have easily spent 20 plus hours doing so
[09:32] <Kamion> specs are the responsibility of the development team
[09:33] <Burgwork> if the wiki was split, I wouldn't have to do any of those
[09:33] <mako> Burgwork: you're trading a complex searching problem for a fragmentation problem
[09:33] <Kamion> the wiki team should feel free to punt those to us
[09:33] <Kamion> you don't have to do them *now* - you can tell development to sort it out
[09:33] <mdke_> evening, sorry for lateness
[09:33] <Kamion> if everyone does their own specs it doesn't take long to do whatever it is
[09:33] <Burgwork> realistically, that is not an option
[09:33] <Kamion> why not?
[09:34] <Kamion> well, s/tell/ask/, but anyway
[09:34] <Burgwork> because often the development team does page editing/moving/creation without a holistic view
[09:34] <Burgwork> and that is not their fault
[09:34] <Madpilot> hi everyone
[09:34] <Kamion> you can have the holistic view and ask other people to do the actual shuffling of their own specs
[09:34] <Burgwork> ie, they create a page that causes the doc team grief, without even knowing about it
[09:34] <Kamion> if you take work on yourself, you can't blame other people for you doing all the work :)
[09:35] <Kamion> the doc team has, to my knowledge, never communicated those issues to the development team
[09:35] <Burgwork> yes, I have not done so
[09:35] <Kamion> I suggest doing so :)
[09:35] <Kamion> then it will be less likely to be a problem in future
[09:35] <Burgwork> there is another problem, that of recent changes
[09:35] <mako> Burgwork: some of these problems can be solved with education :)
[09:35] <mako> don't use a technical solution to a social problem
[09:36] <Kamion> RecentChanges is mostly used by wiki contributors, I'm guessing
[09:36] <Burgwork> it is currently very difficult to seperate docs out from non-docs when looking at what has changed. Which means a person realisitically has to look at all changes
[09:36] <Kamion> now that sounds like something amenable to a technical solution ...
[09:36] <Mithrandir> enhance the recentchanges page by putting the category there too, then.
[09:36] <mako> Burgwork: what about it?
[09:37] <Burgwork> mediawiki is designed for presentation wikis, ala documentation and encyclopedias
[09:37] <sorush20> where is the adgenda
[09:37] <mdke> is this a general discussion of the BetterWikiDocs spec?
[09:37] <mako> sorush20: in the topic
[09:37] <HiddenWolf> It is hard to differentiate docs from non-docs. Good docs from bad docs, and doc's don't have a mandatory "applies to $version" thing, so it is trial and error to figure out if it'll work a lot of the time.
[09:37] <Burgwork> clear seperation of talk and article, watchlists, internal wiki communication
[09:37] <heno> mdke: I emailed you a transcript so far
[09:37] <mako> HiddenWolf: the docteam can tag docs as "notable" if you'd like
[09:38] <mako> or with version information
[09:38] <Burgwork> for instance, if someone edits a page in our wiki, I have no way of communicating with them without knowing their email
[09:38] <mdke> heno, ok thanks
[09:38] <mako> Burgwork: what is the MW funcionatliy you are missing here?
[09:38] <mako> Burgwork: talk pages?
[09:38] <ompaul> sorush20,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[09:38] <Burgwork> mako, internal wiki communication via user talk pages
[09:39] <HiddenWolf> mako: I'm not much of a guru on the wiki, but a good way to seperate good docs from bad docs and figure out if it'll work on your version would really help.
[09:39] <Burgwork> mako, some of which can be hacked into our wiki, but some cannot easily
[09:39] <heno> Burgwork: it should be fairly easy to set up better provision for talk pages
[09:39] <Madpilot> HiddenWolf: the versioning thing is a writing problem, not as much a technical issue, AFAIK
[09:39] <mdke> heno, ok, looks like discussion has just spiralled out off topic :(
[09:39] <mako> Burgwork: so *user* talk pages
[09:39] <heno> we could even use the comment macro
[09:40] <sorush20> who is the meeting leader?
[09:40] <mako> Burgwork: i've never found user talk pages hugely useful in WP personally
[09:40] <Burgwork> mako, heno, Kamion lets move on
[09:40] <mako> sorush20: myself, kamion and elmo are the council members
[09:40] <Burgwork> heno, can you and I chat about what I would like out of our wiki after the meeting?
[09:40] <Burgwork> mako, Kamion this spec needs further work before being brough back before the CC
[09:41] <Kamion> yeah, I agree
[09:41] <Seveas> This is going way beyond CC territory...
[09:41] <Mithrandir> Burgwork: I have no idea how the mediawiki thingy works, but I know that if you tried to communicate with me through editing some wiki page, you'd fail, unless it gets sent to me by email or tells me on IRC.  How does the usertalk thingy work in mediawiki?
[09:41] <Kamion> it would be nice if we could be presented with a decision to make, more than an open-ended discussion :)
[09:41] <heno> Burgwork: sure, but perhaps we should do it on a mailing list so others can participate
[09:41] <mdke> Kamion, the topic was about the server
[09:41] <Kamion> true
[09:41] <mako> FWIW, it's an interesting discussion :)
[09:41] <Burgwork> heno, ok
[09:41] <Kamion> elmo: can you answer that much (unless you did so already and I missed it) and we can move on?
[09:42] <Kamion> as in, assuming it were determined to be worthwhile
[09:42] <mdke> :-(
[09:42] <sorush20> have you decied to have more ops in the ubuntu channels?
[09:42] <elmo> phone, brb
[09:42] <Seveas> sorush20, yes, that has been earlier on the agenda
[09:43] <Seveas> ok, let's move on then, elmo can answer when whe gets back :-)
[09:43] <Seveas> robotgeek, tepsipakki and Hobbsee are the new member candidates
[09:43] <Seveas> robotgeek, give us your 3-line summary please
[09:43] <mako> brilliant
[09:43] <robotgeek> I am VenkatRaghavan. I currently live in New Jersey (moved from Texas 2 days ago!), though originally from Hyderabad, India. Been using Ubuntu since the Hoary release. Yes, I dumped OS X for Ubuntu!
[09:44] <robotgeek> I am a member of NewUserMentors, WikiTeam and the Kubuntu Team. I have done lot of irc support in the past (sometimes more than 10 hours a day!), and in the recent months started getting involved in the Documentation work. More details on my wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenkatRaghavan
[09:44] <robotgeek> In the immediate future, I want to make sure Kubuntu Desktop Guide is complete in time for Dapper. I also want to more involve myself more in the Documentation Team activities. Since I am an Engineer by profession, I want to improve my packaging skills so that I may package to help the Motu Science Team.
[09:44] <robotgeek> :)
[09:44] <jjesse> robotgeek has been working hard and doing a great job on the kubuntu desktop guide
[09:44] <Seveas> robotgeek gets several \o/ from me for IRC work
[09:44] <jjesse> he's picked up a project that was sitting still
[09:44] <Seveas> he's very active
[09:44] <jpatrick> Seveas: ++
[09:44] <mdke> robotgeek is already a great member of the documentation team, he's contributed loads of wiki pages and good documentation, as jjesse says
[09:44] <nalioth> robotgeek is quite helpful on the irc channels
[09:45] <robotgeek> wow
[09:45] <mako> yeah, wow
[09:45] <Kyral> basically if you say no, you have a lot of angry people now ;P
[09:45] <Madpilot> robotgeek: the whole cheering section has come out :P
[09:45] <sorush20> robotgeek: has helped me too alot
[09:46] <Hobbsee> hehe doesnt seem like i need to say anything
[09:46] <Riddell> I support robotgeek, he's doing good work on the kubuntu desktop guide
[09:46] <jpatrick> I've seen him a lot on irc
[09:46] <Kyral> He's helpful in #ubuntu, he has done good work with EasyUbuntu
[09:47] <Kyral> and he's kept me from losing it a couple ttimes (big job lol)
[09:47] <ompaul> his other work has saved me and others plenty of man hours
[09:47] <ompaul> s/man/person/
[09:47] <ompaul> forgive the aged
[09:48] <manicka> his work on the new wifi wiki page is outstanding
[09:48] <Kamion> looks like sustained contribution to me and there seems to be a fair bit of wiki work there
[09:48] <Seveas> robotgeek, probably mako, Kamion and elmo are now reading your wikipage, LP profile etc
[09:48] <Kamion> robotgeek: what's happening with EasyUbuntu at the moment?
[09:49] <LaserJock> robotgeek is active in the docteam and has also expressed interest in doing some packaging for MOTU Science
[09:49] <Kyral> LaserJock: he has? *blink*
[09:49] <robotgeek> Kamion: fixing a few remaining bugs, i'm quite new to python
[09:49] <Kyral> yah you guys are still waiting for me to package it no? :/
[09:49] <sorush20> meetings are not as fast as I would expect them to be
[09:49] <mako> agreed
[09:50] <Kamion> robotgeek: well, I'm more asking what the current state is from the perspective of somebody who knows nothing about it
[09:50] <LaserJock> sorry, got some lag :(
[09:50] <mako> looks good so far
[09:50] <Kamion> last I heard was when the automatix/forums stuff came up here
[09:50] <Kamion> which probably wasn't the best advert :)
[09:50] <robotgeek> Kamion: it works well, it needs to be packaged in a deb format. Kyral is helping
[09:51] <mako> yeah, this is good stuff
[09:51] <Seveas> Kamion, easyubuntu is nothing like automatix fortunatel
[09:51] <mako> robotgeek: how long have you been involved?
[09:51] <robotgeek> mako: for about 5+ months now
[09:51] <nalioth> Kamion: robotgeek was involved in easybreezy, a fork of automatix. the project has since merged back with easyubuntu (the original)
[09:51] <mako> great
[09:51] <mako> well, i'm happy with membership
[09:51] <sorush20> I find automatix to work better than easy ubuntu..
[09:51] <Seveas> sorush20, -ETOPIC
[09:51] <Kyral> haha, beat me to it Seveas
[09:52] <_jason> wait, I can say robotgeek is awesome too :)  He's always on irc and working hard on easyubuntu
[09:52] <Kamion> sorush20: ... this is why meetings take ages
[09:52] <robotgeek> thanks _jason :)
[09:52] <Kamion> I'm also happy with membership
[09:53] <Seveas> did elmo return already?
[09:54] <Seveas> if not, should we move on and let him catch up later?
[09:54] <elmo> sorry, back
[09:54] <Seveas> ah, cool
[09:54] <elmo> move on, I'll catch up
[09:54] <Seveas> ok
[09:54] <Seveas> next up: tepsipakki
[09:55] <Seveas> idle tim 40 minutes, so he could be around
[09:55] <Seveas> ah
[09:55] <tepsipakki> let me get organized ;)
[09:55] <tepsipakki> I'm an UNIX administrator working part time for the Computing Centre of Helsinki University of Technology in Finland. Current work involves administering 200+ Linux (Debian Sarge atm) workstations and some Tru64-UNIX servers. When not working, I'm trying to finish my master's degree (major: semiconductors and materials of electronics).
[09:55] <tepsipakki> Interests include GNOME, NFSv4, installer, sysadmin tools etc. I've made some patches here and there, most of it is documented on my wikipage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
[09:55] <Kamion> I've been working off and on with tepsipakki on various automatic installation issues for some time
[09:56] <Kamion> he's more willing than most to dive in and get his hands dirty, and has been very useful at nagging me to follow up on things
[09:56] <Kyral> Jeez, where were you guys when I was installing Ubuntu on 20 lab computers...
[09:56] <Kyral> ;P
[09:56] <tepsipakki> =)
[09:56] <tepsipakki> I have a system that only needs to be documented somewhere
[09:56] <Hobbsee> Kyral: off at the pub, why do you ask? :P
[09:56] <Seveas> Hobbsee, Kyral: please stick to the topic
[09:56] <Kyral> sorry...
[09:56] <Hobbsee> sorry
[09:57] <Kamion> ... so I'm more than happy with tepsipakki for membership
[09:57] <mako> yes.. tepsipakki is great by me
[09:57] <Kamion> tepsipakki: (incidentally lamont's looking at getting NFSv4 support into mount, and we may get it in before feature freeze with any luck)
[09:58] <elmo> ack robotgeek
[09:58] <mdke> well done robotgeek
[09:58] <Seveas> elmo, thanks
[09:58] <tepsipakki> Kamion: yes, I just received info that a new version of util-linux is in sid now
[09:58] <Seveas> welcome robotgeek!
[09:58] <robotgeek> thanks all!
[09:58] <elmo> WRT server, heno can always have a server if he asks for it, but given this isn't exactly uncontentious, I'd like some higher power sign in before any migration off of the main wiki happens
[09:58] <irvin> congrats robotgeek... it's about time ;-)
[09:58] <jpatrick> congrats robotgeek
[09:58] <robotgeek> Riddell: that was fast :)
[09:59] <elmo> ack tepsipakki too
[09:59] <mdke> well done tepsipakki
[09:59] <Kyral> welldone :D
[09:59] <elmo> (tho I'm somewhat disappointed you're not the dovecot author.  same firstname and nationality.  close.  but not.)
[09:59] <lamont> Kamion: nfsv4 change was uploaded to debian just after dinstall today, should be syncable tomorrow
[09:59] <Seveas> welcome abourd tepsipakki
[09:59] <tepsipakki> gee, thanks! <blush>
[10:00] <Seveas> (you got approved really fast, amazing!)
[10:00] <Seveas> last candidate: Hobbsee (Sarah Hobbs)
[10:00] <Hobbsee> hey
[10:00] <Seveas> Hobbsee, please give us the 3-liner
[10:00] <Hobbsee> I am Sarah Hobbs, a university student in Sydney, Australia, doing a Bachelor of Technology in Optoelectronics. I've been using linux since june 2005, first Ubuntu, and then Kubuntu from that time onwards, usually running a tripple boot machine of XP, kubuntu breezy and kubuntu dapper.
[10:00] <Hobbsee> I'm a member of the kubuntu team, am involved in moderating and providing support in IRC, and involved in bug writing/fixing and some packaging.  My Wiki Page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hobbsee
[10:00] <Hobbsee> In the future, I want to learn more about packaging, so I can contribute more to the ubuntu community, in particular the kubuntu section, and possibly the MOTU-science section as well.  I also want to continue on with the IRC support.
[10:00] <Hobbsee> darn copy key doesnt work as fast as i'd like it to :P
[10:01] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I hope to see you in the MOTU team soon! :)
[10:01] <nalioth> Hobbsee: is quite knowledgable and helpful to many in irc
[10:01] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i hope so too!
[10:02] <Riddell> I support Hobbsee's membership, she's done some good bug work and #kubuntu operator
[10:02] <mako> Hobbsee: how long have you been contributing?
[10:02] <Kamion> ah, so you're part of the reason the kubuntu team manage to get Flight CDs tested so quickly :)
[10:02] <elmo> Kamion: stop trying to deflect the blame for the bandwidth damage
[10:03] <Hobbsee> mako: on irc, since around...*thinks* - probably a couple of months before breezy was released
[10:03] <elmo> ;P
[10:03] <Hobbsee> and packaging only in the last couple of months
[10:04] <Riddell> she first appeared on #kubuntu-devel 2005-10-08, was on #kubuntu few a few months before that
[10:04] <sorush20> I don't think hobbsee has done as much as the other two members..
[10:04] <Seveas> sorush20, that's irrelevant
[10:04] <Kamion> that does seem to be true, but OTOH it looks like fairly good going
[10:05] <mako> the criteria is significant and sustained
[10:05] <mako> contributins.. different people have different amounts of time to give
[10:05] <Kamion> and packaging work is valuable
[10:05] <elmo> "sudo cp -i --reply=no"  *boggle*
[10:05] <elmo> what's the point of that, JOOI?@
[10:06] <Kamion> elmo: where's that?
[10:06] <Kyral> .....elmo, mischan?
[10:06] <sistpoty> Hobbsee has some packages on revu, and iirc, what I've seen in packaging is promising... and Hobbsee is often around in -motu
[10:06] <LaserJoc1> sistpoty++
[10:06] <jpatrick> Hobbsee has a good bug buster too
[10:07] <jpatrick> I think she has a record for Kubuntu bugs
[10:08] <elmo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxNewVersion
[10:08] <Seveas> Hobbsee, be patient
[10:08] <elmo> no idea if Hobbsee added that, it just jumped out at me
[10:09] <Hobbsee> elmo: i did some work on that page a while ago - i havent recently, because i havent been usign that version of firefox, using 1.5 on dapper from the repositories
[10:09] <Hobbsee> s/usign/using
[10:09] <Kamion> testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are good for me if they reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
[10:09] <sorush20> I think she should be allowed to be a member..
[10:09] <elmo> wow there are some interesting usernames in the wiki
[10:09] <Kamion> elmo: the one I suspect you're looking at is a troll
[10:10] <mako> Kamion: ?
[10:10] <Kyral> check the changes log
[10:10] <Kamion> mako: one "Niggerplease" editing FirefoxNewVersion
[10:10] <sorush20> Hobbsee: how are you aiming to contribute to the opensource world after your degree?
[10:10] <mako> just found it
[10:11] <mako> alright, i
[10:11] <Riddell> sorush20: ? she's only about to start...
[10:11] <mako> i'm happy with Hobbsee for membership
[10:11] <Seveas> that's one down, two to go
[10:11] <Hobbsee> sorush20: probably doing some more packages, more IRC - basically continuing what i've already started
[10:11] <elmo> ack
[10:12] <sorush20> I have noticed that there are a lot of howto's been done on wifi by all the new members..
[10:12] <Kamion> oh, is anyone processing the launchpad tweaking for new members?
[10:12] <Kamion> if not I'll do it
[10:12] <Seveas> sorush20, tbh: that is bad news, it means wireless is still difficult
[10:13] <mako> Kamion: i'll do it
[10:13] <Kamion> mako: thanks
[10:13] <Seveas> Kamion, what's your 'verdict' about Hobbsee?
[10:13] <Hobbsee> Seveas: indeed it is - that's one thing i'd love to change
[10:13] <sorush20> maybe the three new members should network together to make one unified document.. to make things less confusing..
[10:13] <Kamion> Seveas: 21:09 < Kamion> testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are good for me if they reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
[10:13] <Seveas> Hobbsee, contribute to NetworkManager then
[10:13] <Kamion> that's an ack if it wasn't clear
[10:13] <Seveas> Kamion, it is, I just missed it
[10:13] <Seveas> Hobbsee, welcome aboard!
[10:14] <Hobbsee> thankyou so much!
[10:14] <nalioth> Hobbsee: robotgeek: welcome!
[10:14] <Hobbsee> :D
[10:14] <Kamion> Hobbsee: (do test out network-manager in dapper and see if it works for you, if you haven't already)
[10:14] <LaserJoc1> congrats Hobbsee
[10:14] <Kamion> (and others)
[10:14] <Seveas> nalioth, don't forget tepsipakki
[10:14] <Hobbsee> Kamion: will do, but i use kde
[10:14] <nalioth> tepsipakki: welcome to the next level
[10:14] <dholbach> welcome Hobbsee, robotgeek and tepsipakki
[10:14] <Kamion> ah, there's a kde equivalent I believe but I don't know the name
[10:14] <Riddell> knetworkmanager :)
[10:14] <sorush20> Hobbsee: we need more women in Ubuntu
[10:14] <Hobbsee> Kamion: knetworkmanager, from cvs, which i havent figured out yet
[10:14] <Riddell> (but it requires a CVS netwok-manager)
[10:14] <Kamion> OK. Any other business?
[10:15] <Seveas> Time and date of next meeting
[10:15] <Kamion> propose 12:00 two weeks time
[10:15] <Kyral> as always...
[10:15] <Seveas> please decide now instead of one-day notice
[10:15] <Kamion> UTC
[10:15] <Seveas> fine to me
[10:15] <tepsipakki> Hobbsee: congrats, and good luck with your studies (I've done some microfabrication courses :)
[10:15] <Kyral> ....ick...thats like 0700 my time
[10:15] <elmo> that's middle of the UI sprint
[10:15] <Kyral> oh well
[10:15] <mako> wait..
[10:15] <Seveas> will sabdfl be available?
[10:15] <elmo> dunno who's going to it
[10:15] <mako> let me check that time
[10:15] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: thankyou, you too :)
[10:15] <tepsipakki> robotgeek: congrats to you too :)
[10:15] <mako> that should be fine
[10:15] <robotgeek> thanks tepsipakki ! you too!
[10:16] <Kamion> oh, bloody UI sprint - I'm scheduled to go to it, yes
[10:16] <tepsipakki> and once more thanks to all!
[10:16] <mako> robotgeek, tepsipakki, Hobbsee: i've approved your membership in LP
[10:16] <Kamion> if you can do it without me that week that would be good
[10:16] <Hobbsee> mako: thankyou!
[10:16] <elmo> Kamion: sabdfl will be there too ...
[10:16] <robotgeek> thanks mako
[10:16] <elmo> (won't he?)
[10:16] <tepsipakki> mako: rock!
[10:16] <Kamion> hmm, guess he would want to be
[10:16] <mako> it's been a few meetings
[10:16] <mako> with all the traveling
[10:16] <Seveas> indeed
[10:16] <Kamion> we could force minions to deliver us lunch
[10:16] <mako> quick, while he's aweay
[10:17] <Kyral> lol
[10:17] <mako> lets pass some outrageous new rule
[10:17] <Seveas> he wants to bring up the complaint about #ubuntu - has anybody already heard more about that? mako/kamion?
[10:17] <Kamion> ok, I'll send mail to community-council@ proposing that time and let him respond
[10:17] <elmo> mako: how about we depose him?
[10:17] <Kyral> lol
[10:17] <mako> elmo: if he never comes to meetings, that's hardly necessary ;)
[10:17] <Kyral> All Members get $1 a day pay from Canonical lol
[10:17] <Kamion> we'll make it provisionally 1200 on 7 March until then
[10:17] <jpatrick> cool
[10:18] <mako> Kamion: good
[10:18] <Kamion> Seveas: not apart from that mail chain
[10:18] <nalioth> Kyral: is that retroactice to date of membership?  :P
[10:18] <Kyral> lol
[10:18] <mako> elmo: and plus, i definitely don't want his job :)
[10:18] <Seveas> Kamion, ok, neither have I apart from some supicions from the community
[10:18] <Kyral> what complaint against #ubuntu btw?
[10:19] <sorush20> Kyral really?
[10:19] <Seveas> Kyral, it'll come up at the next meeting
[10:19] <mako> i'll leave him to suits and press releases and the pretty girls in karaoke bars
[10:19] <Kyral> Seveas: okay
[10:19] <Kamion> Kyral: alleged overenthusiasm about banning people for mention of automatix
[10:19] <Seveas> mako, pubcon!
[10:19] <Kyral> oyy....that is annoying
[10:19] <sorush20> Kyral: is that USD?
[10:19] <mako> yes..
[10:19] <Kamion> ok, sounds like we're done here
[10:19] <Kamion> going
[10:19] <mako> i'd (wishfully perhaps) assumed that was dealt with
[10:19] <Kamion> going
[10:19] <Kamion> gone
[10:19] <mako> yeah, i should work too
[10:20] <mako> paper deadline in <11hours
[10:20] <mako> need to pretend i'm an academic
[10:20] <Kamion> mako: sadly I think probably not, we'll find out now+2weeks then?
[10:20] <Kyral> mako: I suspect it will turn into something like the Emacs vs. Vi Holy War
[10:20] <mako> Kyral: i don't think so
[10:20] <mako> because the issue is not whether the software is any good
[10:20] <mako> it's completely inconsequential
[10:20] <mako> but anywya
[10:20] <Kyral> yah
[10:20] <mako> lets not have that conversation now
[10:20] <Kyral> sorry for mentioning
[10:21] <mako> my fault too :)
[10:21] <Seveas> see you all next time!
[10:21] <mako> thanks everyone for coming
[10:21] <ompaul> cheers
[10:21] <nalioth> y'all be safe
[10:21] <Kamion> ok, Mark has mail
[10:22] <Kamion> FWIW<EMAIL_ADDRESS>now exists as a contact address for the CC members
[10:22] <Kyral> Now can I mention that DW Article about Mark? :P
[10:22] <Kamion> please don't overuse it :-)
[10:22] <Kamion> but its archives are private so it's suitable e.g. for private mails about disputes and that sort of thing if need be
[10:22] <Seveas> Expect this weeks summary in your mailbox later today or tomorrow (depending on timezone and lazyness of myself)
[10:22] <mako><EMAIL_ADDRESS>use it, don't abuse it"
[10:23] <mako> sorry<EMAIL_ADDRESS>use it, don't abuse it"
[10:23] <Kyral> I forgot it existed lol
[10:23] <mako> well, it didn't
[10:23] <mako> until yesterday
[10:23] <Kyral> I meant I will never use it ;P
[10:23] <mako> well you should use it
[10:23] <mako> just not abuse it
[10:23] <mako> alright
[10:23] <mako> this is inane
[10:23] <mako> i'm off
[10:23] <Kyral> yah
[10:23] <mako> thanks all
[10:23] <Kamion> Kyral: DW> feel free
[10:24] <Kyral> I was just wondering if anyone read it