[00:29] <wxl> flexiondotorg phillw hopefully pi2 code coming to 4.5 kernel http://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/x-org-drm/840571-raspberry-pi-2-code-getting-ready-for-upstreaming-in-linux-kernel
[15:25] <phillw> Description:	Ubuntu Xenial Xerus (development branch)
[15:25] <phillw> so far, so good :)
[22:02] <tsimonq2> phillw: although it is archived, just curious as to why http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/351/builds/109720/testcases/1437/results is blank for bugs...
[22:02] <tsimonq2> wxl: ^
[22:04] <phillw> tsimonq2: curious about what?
[22:04] <wxl> weird
[22:04] <wxl> phillw: no "bugs to look out for"
[22:04] <wxl> is that on all the images?
[22:05] <tsimonq2> phillw: you reported no bugs when clearly there were some
[22:06] <phillw> tsimonq2: I reported no bugs because it installed and booted. That is what the test case is about. Adding in application tests are a totally different test case area :)
[22:06] <wxl> maybe because it's archived tsimonq2
[22:06] <tsimonq2> wxl: no, it wouldn;t do that
[22:06] <tsimonq2> phillw: because I have been scolded before by people including you for not including application bugs
[22:06] <wxl> i checked all the daily testcases and they're there
[22:07] <phillw> tsimonq2: e.g. http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/testcases/1511/revisions/654/info
[22:08] <phillw> tsimonq2: you may like to take some time out to see the new layout of the release notes. It more clearly deliniates between bugs.
[22:08]  * tsimonq2 has seen
[22:08] <phillw> however, you should discuss with wxl and not myself.
[22:08] <wxl> if you guys DO look at one of the daily testcases, you'll see that there's a LIST of bugs now
[22:09] <wxl> i think in general it's not a REQUIREMENT to test every bug, but it's certainly somethind we need to do before release
[22:09] <wxl> well, before a milestone
[22:10] <wxl> cuz i use that list of bugs reported to make the release notes
[22:10]  * wxl was up late sunday with the virtual machine checking each and every single freaking bug reported
[22:10] <tsimonq2> wxl: mind if I subscribe the Lubuntu Packages Team to all of the bugs reported on the Alpha 1 page?
[22:11] <wxl> tsimonq2: sure, feel free
[22:11] <phillw> wxl: I was flagged up a couple of bugs by flexiondotorg, one that he spotted on MATE and another found by Kylin.
[22:12] <wxl> btw i put a new task on gci for doing the packages
[22:12] <phillw> wxl: the packages do need test cases written. I did start before my departure.
[22:12] <wxl> phillw: is that something you would like to take on?
[22:13] <phillw> wxl: not a wise idea :)
[22:14] <wxl> tsimonq2: if you make a list of all the packages in lubuntu that we need test cases for on the packaging tracker, we can make tasks for each one of those
[22:14] <tsimonq2> wxl: I'll do that next
[22:15] <wxl> tsimonq2: i guess we'll have to make separate tasks for each one
[22:15] <tsimonq2> yeah
[22:16] <phillw> tsimonq2: there is a good start at http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/subscriptions
[22:17] <tsimonq2> I am aware, phillw
[22:20] <tsimonq2> wxl: just Mandatory or Optional?
[22:20] <tsimonq2> Optional as well, that is
[22:21] <wxl> tsimonq2: i guess follow what others do. i would expect that core elements (e.g. lxinput) are more important than others (abiword)
[22:21] <tsimonq2> wxl: well what I am asking is...should I do it?
[22:21] <tsimonq2> I am not wondering about priority
[22:23] <phillw> concentrating on what lx team write and maintain has to be a higher priority than stuff that we use that is maintained by others :)
[22:23] <tsimonq2> phillw: again...not priority
[22:25] <phillw> applications that are fundamental are mandatory... e,g, if pcmanfm does not work, that is a critical bug. If Abiword has a problem with foreign languages, that is irritating and also out of our control, so will never be a critical bug.
[22:26]  * tsimonq2 sighs and just makes a list of all of them
[23:58] <wxl> tsimonq2: you get that list?


[04:15] <pitti> Good morning
[04:26] <TheMuso> Morning pitti. :)
[04:32] <pitti> hey TheMuso!
[04:38] <pitti> Laney: FYI, I sent an RT for bos01 which burst into flames
[05:30] <hikiko>  hello
[05:34] <didrocks> good morning
[05:43] <hikiko> Good morning didrocks
[05:50] <didrocks> hey hikiko, how are you?
[06:43] <darkxst> hey pitti, didrocks hikiko
[06:44] <didrocks> good evening darkxst
[06:48] <darkxst> didrocks, not really, spent the afternoon fighting with gdm3, but it is done now ;)
[06:48] <darkxst> the migration stuff was a pita, but should work
[06:50] <didrocks> darkxst: I guess you will be happy once this is really built and tested on a wider scale :)
[06:54] <darkxst> didrocks, well I would be more happy if I could find a graceful way to upgrade gdm daemon without breaking the lock screen, but that seems to be a general issue, not related to the merge
[06:57] <hikiko> hey pitti darkxst
[06:58] <didrocks> did I missed pitti? I didn't see him saying hi here :p
[06:58] <didrocks> ah, it was before I joined :)
[06:58] <didrocks> darkxst: how are you breaking the lock screen?
[06:58] <darkxst> didrocks, pitti is always up early!
[06:59] <pitti> hey hikiko and darkxst!
[06:59] <pitti> ça va didrocks !
[06:59] <didrocks> yeah, 6:30 is already early
[06:59] <darkxst> didrocks, the auth channel between gdm and gnome-shell is quite fragile
[06:59] <didrocks> I don't want to get up at 5:30 just to beat him :)
[06:59] <darkxst> I suspect that is part of the reason fedora forces updates to delay until reboot
[06:59] <didrocks> pitti: ça va, et toi ? :)
[06:59] <pitti> oui, je ne pouvais plus dormir, j'ai me léve à 4:30 à nouveau :(
[06:59] <pitti> didrocks: je vais bien, merci !
[06:59] <didrocks> pitti: argh :/
[07:00] <didrocks> darkxst: ah, you meant, breaking for the session until reboot?
[07:00] <didrocks> darkxst: or then, for each gdm update?
[07:00] <darkxst> didrocks, after a gdm update, you can't unlock it
[07:00] <darkxst> and yea just until reboot
[07:01] <didrocks> argh, but for each update?
[07:01] <didrocks> that's quite ackward, indeed
[07:12] <darkxst> didrocks, I don't know if it happens on 100% of updates, but its been happening atleast sometimes for a while now
[07:13] <darkxst> and sometimes its gnome-shell loosing the auth channel, which is recoverable, but not by a normal user
[07:20] <didrocks> pitti: waow, I didn't know that python gettext was assuming ascii for encoding
[07:20] <pitti> didrocks: ?
[07:20] <pitti> didrocks: neither did I, and it certainly shoudln't?
[07:20] <pitti> >>> gettext.gettext('ça va ♥')
[07:21] <pitti> 'ça va ♥'
[07:21] <didrocks> https://docs.python.org/3/library/gettext.html
[07:21] <didrocks> "If the charset encoding is specified, then all message ids and message strings read from the catalog are converted to Unicode using this encoding, else ASCII encoding is assumed.
[07:21] <pitti> or do you mean for matching strings in .mo files?
[07:21] <didrocks> "
[07:21] <didrocks> pitti: I have some _("") returning in a language that returns me some UnicodeEncodeError
[07:21] <didrocks> the typical *** UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character '\xe3' in position 5: ordinal not in range(128)
[07:23] <pitti> uh, so this would be lgettext() then or bind_textdomain_codeset()?
[07:24] <pitti> why on earth doesn't that default to $LC_CTYPE
[07:24] <didrocks> pitti: yeah, seems that's what I need, I would like to understand exactly what's going on before adding it though
[07:24] <didrocks> (I just bind_textdomain for now)
[07:28] <pitti> do you have a small reproducer for this?
[07:30] <pitti> $ python3 -c 'import gettext, locale; print(locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "")); gettext.textdomain("gtk30"); print(gettext.gettext("Add a class"))'
[07:30] <pitti> de_DE.UTF-8
[07:30] <pitti> Eine Klasse hinzufügen
[07:30] <didrocks> pitti: no, well… I can reproduce it in one command in Ubuntu Make
[07:31] <didrocks> but yeah, I should do something wrong I guess…
[07:31] <pitti> if I run this under LC_CTYPE=C it indeed fails with UnicodeEncodeError, but that's to be expected
[07:31] <didrocks> yeah
[07:31] <pitti> with LC_CTYPE=C.UTF-8 it works
[07:31] <didrocks> can be as well the .mo file which is wrong for that lang
[07:32] <didrocks> "Eu não aceito" is what it doesn't like in PT_br
[07:32] <pitti> .po files specify their own content encoding, but if it's wrong it might not match indeed
[07:33] <didrocks> but "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n"
[07:33] <didrocks> so sounds good…
[07:34] <didrocks> I initialize gettext in https://github.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-make/blob/master/umake/__init__.py#L32
[07:35] <didrocks> and the failure is when I print the "I don't accept" pt_BR translation set in https://github.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-make/blob/master/umake/__init__.py#L32
[07:35] <pitti> didrocks: your setlocale() call is someplace else?
[07:37] <didrocks> pitti: I never called setlocale
[07:37] <didrocks> it's using LANGUAGE=, right?
[07:37] <pitti> didrocks: if set, yes
[07:37] <pitti> $  python3 -c 'import gettext; gettext.textdomain("gtk30"); print(gettext.gettext("Add a class"))'
[07:37] <pitti> Eine Klasse hinzufügen
[07:37] <pitti> indeed that works too
[07:37]  * didrocks reads http://www.wefearchange.org/2012/06/the-right-way-to-internationalize-your.html
[07:38] <pitti> I thought one had to call setlocale(); one must do in C, but perhaps python does it automagically
[07:39] <didrocks> yeah, I never needed to in python contrary to C
[07:39] <didrocks> (and the doc list the env variables that it's using)
[07:40] <pitti> $ python3 -c 'import locale; print(locale.getlocale())'
[07:40] <pitti> ('de_DE', 'UTF-8')
[07:40] <pitti> indeed
[07:40] <pitti> $ python -c 'import locale; print(locale.getlocale())'
[07:40] <pitti> (None, None)
[07:40] <pitti> hah
[07:41] <pitti> so that's new in py3
[07:41] <pitti> $ python -c 'import gettext, locale; print(locale.getlocale()); gettext.textdomain("gtk30"); print(gettext.gettext("Add a class"))'
[07:41] <pitti> (None, None)
[07:41] <pitti> Eine Klasse hinzufügen
[07:41] <pitti> so that works only because py2 blissfully ignores all the encoding stuff
[07:42] <didrocks> after reading barry's blog post, seems like I'm doing the right thing in python3…
[07:42] <didrocks> as gettext is returning unicode there…
[07:50] <didrocks> pitti: ok, I have a small reproducer, are you on xenial?
[07:50] <pitti> didrocks: yes; is there anything else? :-)
[07:50] <didrocks> ahah :)
[07:51] <didrocks> so apt install ubuntu-make
[07:51] <didrocks> (to get the .mo file)
[07:51] <didrocks> LANGUAGE=pt_BR python3 -c "import gettext; gettext.textdomain('ubuntu-make'); print(gettext.gettext('I don\'t accept'))"
[07:52] <pitti> so I'll install ubuntu-make and language-pack-{gnome-,}pt in a schroot
[07:53] <didrocks> pitti: I don't think you need other langpacks, but yeah
[07:54] <didrocks> hum
[07:54] <didrocks> LANGUAGE=pt_BR python3 -c 'import sys; print (sys.stdout.encoding)'
[07:54] <didrocks> ANSI_X3.4-1968
[07:54] <pitti> $ LANGUAGE=pt_BR python3 -c 'import sys; print (sys.stdout.encoding)'
[07:54] <pitti> UTF-8
[07:54] <pitti> on my desktop
[07:54] <pitti> in the schroot it says ANSI_X3.4-1968 (i. e. "ascii")
[07:54] <didrocks> getting that on my clean shell
[07:54] <didrocks> when changing only LANGUAGE
[07:55] <pitti> because my other LC_* are unset in the schroot
[07:55] <didrocks> ahah
[07:55] <pitti> didrocks: what does your "locale" say?
[07:55] <didrocks> LANG=pt_BR.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=pt_BR python3 -c 'import sys; print (sys.stdout.encoding)'
[07:55] <pitti> for LC_CTYPE in particular
[07:55] <didrocks> pitti: ^
[07:55] <pitti> LANGUAGE does not set any LC* or encoding, it's just for picking a language
[07:55] <didrocks> (well, I just use env variables, so locale returns the french LC="fr_FR.UTF-8")
[07:55] <pitti> unlike LANG which is an entire locale
[07:56] <didrocks> LC_ALL is empty though
[07:56] <pitti> that's fine
[07:56] <pitti> if you have $LANG it's the defualt for LC_*
[07:56] <pitti> most people have only $LANG or $LANG+$LANGUAGE
[07:56] <didrocks> yeah, so the issue happens when I set LANG= in addition to LANGUAGE
[07:56] <didrocks> LANG=pt_BR.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=pt_BR python3 -c 'import sys; print (sys.stdout.encoding)'
[07:56] <didrocks> ANSI_X3.4-1968
[07:56] <pitti> $ LANG=pt_BR.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=pt_BR python3 -c 'import sys; print (sys.stdout.encoding)'
[07:56] <pitti> UTF-8
[07:56] <pitti> in my schroot
[07:57] <didrocks> pitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/13245981/
[07:57] <pitti> didrocks: oh! may it be that you don't actually have the pt_BR.UTF-8 locale?
[07:57] <pitti> didrocks: locale -a ?
[07:57] <didrocks> oh right, I don't have it installed
[07:57] <pitti> there you are :)
[07:58] <pitti> language-pack-{gnome-,}pt
[07:58] <didrocks> so, you think that issue happens for people not installing the locale?
[07:58] <didrocks> and so, sys.stdout.encoding returns ANSI_X3.4-1968
[07:58] <didrocks> instead of UTF-8
[07:58] <didrocks> (there is a default encoding by locale?)
[07:59] <pitti> right; "LANG=pt_BR.UTF-8 locale" should complain loudly
[07:59] <pitti> locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory
[07:59] <pitti> etc.
[07:59] <pitti> $ LANGUAGE=pt_BR LANG=pt_BR.UTF-8 python3 -c "import gettext; gettext.textdomain('ubuntu-make'); print(gettext.gettext('I don\'t accept'))"
[07:59] <pitti> Eu não aceito
[07:59] <pitti> didrocks: but that shouldn't be possible to do with the GUI -- you can only select locales if you installed the langpack
[08:00] <didrocks> pitti: I still don't get why python doesn't take thus the encoding from LANG…
[08:00] <pitti> so perhaps people who manualy set it
[08:00] <pitti> didrocks: because it doesn't know which encoding that is
[08:00] <pitti> if the locale isn't installed
[08:00] <didrocks> isn't what the .UTF-8 from LANG= is about?
[08:00] <pitti> the ".UTF8" is just part of a name
[08:00] <didrocks> ah
[08:00] <pitti> an identifier for humans
[08:01] <pitti> e. g. aa_ET is also UTF-8
[08:01] <didrocks> ok, so a way to avoid crashing on those condition would be to force my own encoding?
[08:01] <didrocks> as I know my .mo files are UTF-8 encoded
[08:01] <didrocks> ah no, the issue is in the print()
[08:02] <pitti> correct
[08:02] <pitti> didrocks: I'd suggest calling locale.setlocale()
[08:02] <pitti> $ LANG=pt_BR.UTF-8 python3 -c 'import gettext, locale; print(locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, ""))'
[08:02] <pitti> locale.Error: unsupported locale setting
[08:02] <pitti> and only if that succeeds you set a text domain
[08:03] <pitti> that might be the most elegant way
[08:03] <pitti> if the env specifies an invalid/broken/missing locale, it just uses C
[08:03] <didrocks> yeah, so fallbacking to C…
[08:03] <pitti> so:
[08:03] <pitti> try:
[08:04] <pitti>     locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, '')
[08:04] <pitti>    gettext.textdomain(...)
[08:04] <pitti> except locale.Error:
[08:04] <pitti>    # maybe print some warning
[08:04] <pitti>     pass
[08:04] <didrocks> yeah
[08:04] <pitti> yay for my perfect indentation this morning!
[08:04] <didrocks> ahah good enough :)
[08:04] <didrocks> let me still confirm that's the issue on the bug report
[08:05] <didrocks> but I'll add that anyway, good way of protecting myself
[08:05] <didrocks> thanks a lot for looking at it pitti!
[08:05]  * didrocks hugs you
[08:05] <pitti> didrocks: je t'en prie !
[08:05]  * didrocks is quite happy that wasn't so straightforward :)
[08:39] <hikiko> Trevinho, unity has compile errors...
[08:40] <hikiko> bamf_matcher_get_application_for_xid_matcher
[08:44] <hikiko> Trevinho, first error: /home/eleni/canonical/staging/unity/unity-shared/BamfApplicationManager.cpp: In member function ‘void unity::bamf::Application::UpdateWindows()’:
[08:44] <hikiko> /home/eleni/canonical/staging/unity/unity-shared/BamfApplicationManager.cpp:427:43: error: ‘bamf_view_’ is not a member of ‘unity::bamf’
[08:44] <hikiko>    for (GList* l = bamf_view_peek_children(bamf::bamf_view_); l; l = l->next) :s
[08:45] <hikiko> sorry
[08:45] <hikiko> wrong paste
[08:45] <hikiko> /home/eleni/canonical/staging/unity/unity-shared/BamfApplicationManager.cpp: In member function ‘void unity::bamf::Application::UpdateWindows()’:
[08:45] <hikiko> /home/eleni/canonical/staging/unity/unity-shared/BamfApplicationManager.cpp:427:53: error: ‘bamf_view_peek_children’ was not declared in this scope
[08:45] <hikiko>    for (GList* l = bamf_view_peek_children(bamf_view_); l; l = l->next)
[08:45] <hikiko> that's the 1st error
[08:46] <hikiko> mmm now I look at it I should use a pastebin :p
[08:56] <willcooke> morning all
[08:57] <didrocks> morning willcooke
[09:01] <Laney> hey hey
[09:02] <Laney> pitti: bos01> oh dear
[09:02] <darkxst> hey willcooke, Laney
[09:02] <Laney> hi darkxst
[09:03] <Laney> oh man, still no phonon fix!
[09:06] <didrocks> hey Laney! :)
[09:06] <didrocks> Laney is up before seb128, this guy is really back on his French schedule after a week :p
[09:06] <pitti> hey Laney
[09:07] <pitti> Laney: pitti, the breaker of all clouds..
[09:08] <willcooke> qengho, For the last couple of days Cr. has added another icon to the launcher when running and the original just launcher yet another Cr.
[09:08] <willcooke> *launches
[09:12] <Laney> howdy didrocks
[09:15] <didrocks> good good, had some nice interesting python encodeissue this morning :)
[09:16] <didrocks> and fixed bad translations in pt_BR, making Make failure
[09:16] <didrocks> failing*
[09:16] <didrocks> + my first Atom.io contribution \o/
[09:16] <didrocks> and it's Friday :p
[09:16] <willcooke> congrats didrocks
[09:17] <didrocks> thx ;)
[09:21] <Trevinho> Ouch, irc didn't connect... But morning
[09:21] <willcooke> qengho, but removing the old icon and readding sorts it
[09:21] <willcooke> hey Trevinho
[09:21] <Trevinho> hi willcooke
[09:22] <willcooke> Trevinho, sounds like the can find us some real hardware for U7 testing on Intel, nVidida, AMD
[09:22] <willcooke> \o/
[09:22] <Trevinho> willcooke: this is cool!
[09:22] <seb128> re desktopers
[09:22] <Trevinho> willcooke: even just intel would be fine for me... But still
[09:22] <willcooke> :)
[09:22] <Trevinho> the more the better
[09:25] <Laney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/+bug/1512290/comments/8
[09:25] <Laney> this guy is CORRECT!
[09:25] <seb128> FAIL
[09:25] <seb128> laarrsssuuu
[09:27] <seb128> do we tag bug #1515810 as a gtk 318 issue?
[09:27] <seb128> it's not really
[09:27] <seb128> but I think we said we need to teach gtk to have a flag for that?
[09:28] <Laney> that or rls
[09:28] <Laney> should triage the -incoming bugs btw
[09:28] <Laney> does anyone plan to do that?
[09:29] <willcooke> Seems like something that needs more that just one person to go through it
[09:30] <willcooke> so, hangout on Monday?
[09:30] <pitti> Laney: meh, they fixed bos01 this morning, but seems it's just dying again
[09:30] <Laney> pitti: oh I just assumed it wasn't fixed yet
[09:30] <seb128> well, we need one person to approve nominations
[09:30] <seb128> seems a job for a manager ;-)
[09:31] <Laney> willcooke: are you in the right team to do bug nominations?
[09:31] <seb128> but I'm happy to help triaging the list
[09:31] <willcooke> how do I check Laney?
[09:31] <pitti> Laney: at least it held up for some two hours which reduced the queue quite a bit
[09:33] <seb128> willcooke, you try to nominate a bug
[09:33] <Laney> willcooke: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/1286878
[09:33] <Laney> do you have "Nominate for series"?
[09:33] <seb128> "Target to series"
[09:33] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/1286878/+nominate
[09:33] <seb128> do you have access to ^
[09:34]  * seb128 bets he doesn't
[09:34] <Laney> well that's what you need to triage the list
[09:34] <willcooke> I can nominate
[09:34] <seb128> right, I'm not saying he shouldn't
[09:34] <seb128> you can? good !
[09:35] <Laney> nominate but not approve
[09:35] <seb128> well, can you approve nominations ? or just suggest those ?
[09:35] <Laney> or target but not nominate
[09:35] <Laney> whatever the stupid terminlogy is
[09:36] <seb128> Laney, bug #1512290 should be verification-failed if there is a regression, no?
[09:36] <Laney> probably if it makes the thing crash
[09:36] <willcooke> seb128, Laney  - Don't think I can approve
[09:36] <Laney> willcooke: are you in bug control?
[09:36] <Laney> can't remember if that lets you actually approve them
[09:36] <seb128> no it doesn't
[09:36] <Laney> what does then?
[09:36] <seb128> you need to be in ubuntu-drivers I think
[09:37] <seb128> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-drivers
[09:37] <seb128> or https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-release-nominators
[09:37] <seb128> that's part of the drivers
[09:37] <willcooke> qengho, but now "open link in browser" from xchat opens a new Cr. window and doesn't load the page
[09:38] <seb128> infinity is admin of that group
[09:38] <seb128> willcooke, maybe ask to be added there?
[09:38] <seb128> ~ubuntu-release-nominators that is
[09:38] <willcooke> seb128, will do. thx
[09:39]  * Laney checked with #launchpad, but probably
[09:40] <willcooke> oki, so Laney seb128 - you guys (and others) will nominate and then I will approve them?
[09:40] <seb128> +1
[09:40] <willcooke> Guess I can nominate too right?
[09:40] <seb128> yes
[09:40] <willcooke> cool
[09:41] <seb128> I usually do approve things as well
[09:41] <willcooke> great
[09:41] <seb128> I think I'm going to keep doing that for obvious things
[09:41] <seb128> but let me know if you prefer be doing those
[09:41] <Laney> wait what?
[09:42] <willcooke> oki, I will take a pass of the list on Monday, or once I am a member, which ever is later and then we can sync up afterwards
[09:42] <Laney> I can't only nominate, it approves them right away
[09:45] <didrocks> yeah, if you have rights (that every ubuntu core devs do), it will approve right away
[09:45] <seb128> didrocks, I don't think it's coredevs
[09:46] <seb128> it's ubuntu-drivers afaik
[09:46] <didrocks> seb128: well, I can approve for sure, and I'm not in any of the 2 teams
[09:46] <Laney> nah it's uploading permissions + drivers
[09:46] <Laney> I think
[09:46] <didrocks> yeah
[09:46] <seb128> didrocks, you are not in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-drivers ?
[09:46] <didrocks> nope
[09:46] <seb128> I'm in through UDS organiser
[09:46]  * Laney not
[09:46] <seb128> k
[09:46] <Laney> that is some magic team
[09:46] <seb128> launchpad permissions are weird
[09:46] <didrocks> yeah
[09:46] <seb128> and ~ubuntu-release-nominators is misleading then
[09:47] <Laney> it's an extra group on top of the uploaders
[09:47] <Laney> for this kind of case
[09:47] <didrocks> funny that some people are in that team where they are less involved in ubuntu than uploaders btw :p
[09:48] <seb128> yeah, that can makes sense though
[09:48] <seb128> people defining quality and goals and not all doing technical work
[09:48] <didrocks> random canonical upstreams?
[09:48] <didrocks> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-release-nominators/+members#active
[09:48] <seb128> like Pat is driving the touch product and dealing with bugs and targets but he's not packaging
[09:49] <didrocks> that list is really weird…
[09:49] <seb128> yeah, agreed on that
[09:49] <seb128> but like having QA might make sense
[09:49] <seb128> if we trust them to define the quality goals
[09:49] <seb128> random individuals less so
[09:49] <didrocks> for those yeah, not telling everyone in that list doesn't make sense
[09:49] <didrocks> but a good part of individuals is weird
[09:50] <Laney> that "Will" "Cooke"
[09:50] <Laney> who even is he?
[09:51] <didrocks> exactly!
[09:51] <seb128> but we don't even know if that team is actually used
[09:51] <seb128> since we are not member of it and have access to the nominations
[09:51] <seb128> so it is a least not a direct mapping
[10:02] <Laney> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~launchpad-pqm/launchpad/devel/view/head:/lib/lp/bugs/model/bugnomination.py#L120
[10:02] <Laney> uploader + driver
[10:02] <seb128> k
[10:02] <seb128> thanks Laney!
[10:03] <Laney> np!
[10:03] <Laney> seb128: what do you think about demoting phonon-backend-vlc auralquiz?
[10:04] <seb128> does it mean mitya57 and slangasek failed at getting at the bottom for the phonon issues?
[10:04]  * seb128 reads IRC backlog from the night
[10:04] <Laney> some patches but he didn't upload...
[10:25]  * Laney tries them
[10:25] <seb128> them? the patches?
[10:26] <Laney> ye
[10:26] <seb128> I was about to do the demotion
[10:26] <seb128> should I still hit enter? ;-)
[10:26] <seb128> we can fix up things later on
[10:26] <Laney> I assumed silence was no :P
[10:26] <Laney> do it if you're happy
[10:27] <willcooke> Laney, seb128 - is this the list I should work from?  http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-incoming-bug-tasks.html
[10:27] <Laney> yep
[10:27] <willcooke> thx
[10:27] <seb128> +1
[10:27]  * willcooke blocks out some hours
[10:27] <Laney> probably wait until you're in the team so you don't have to do get us to pres butan
[10:27] <seb128> Laney, sorry I was in another discussions so delayed the demotions a bit
[10:27] <Laney> willcooke: rls-x-notfixing is the "we don't commit to this" tag
[10:28] <willcooke> got it
[10:28] <willcooke> ta
[10:28] <Laney> so either way they get out of the incoming list
[10:28] <seb128> Laney, ok, demoted
[10:28] <willcooke> oh, good news... seems my details weren't amongst those lifted in the TalkTalk hack
[10:28] <seb128> eventually we are going to hit the other side
[10:29] <seb128> Rejected:
[10:29] <seb128> phonon-backend-vlc 0.8.2-1ubuntu1 in xenial (version older than the phonon-backend-vlc 0.8.2-1ubuntu2 in xenial published in xenial)
[10:29] <seb128> shrug
[10:29] <seb128> I don't understand the demote tool
[10:29] <seb128> why does it try to upload non current versions?
[10:30] <Laney> seb128: new package in proposed, just remove from release
[10:30] <seb128> done
[10:30] <Laney> nice
[10:30] <Laney> you (maybe) got to do the last action
[10:31]  * seb128 takes a bigger hammer in case it's needed
[10:31] <Laney> we have the "force" hint ;-)
[10:31] <seb128> transition weeks are so much fun
[10:31] <Laney> that gets you sacked from the release team though
[10:31] <seb128> haha
[10:32] <seb128> would be nice to get that done today
[10:32] <Laney> indeed
[10:32] <Laney> ah good job gtk is blocked
[10:33] <Laney> seems .3 broke some stuff
[10:33]  * Laney looks at .4
[10:33] <seb128> yeah, cf my comment yesterday evening just after you left :p
[10:33] <seb128> binding booog
[10:36] <Laney> looks like it all happened at the same time
[10:36] <Laney> like the upstream commits were after I made the package and -3 was just around the same time I uploaded it
[10:36] <Laney> doh doh doh dohd ohdodhodh
[10:39] <czajkowski> Laney: happy friday eh :)
[10:39] <seb128> hey czajkowski! how are you?
[10:48] <seb128> Sweet5hark, hey, could you have a look to bug #1515761 ?
[10:48] <seb128> just to check if it's a regression or just a local/one user thing?
[10:50] <Sweet5hark> seb128: /me reads
[10:50] <seb128> thanks
[10:50] <larsu> Laney: is bug #1512290 the one you mentioned in the tg group?
[10:50] <seb128> larsu, hey again ;-) and yes
[10:50] <Laney> larsu: yeah, I assigned it to you
[10:50] <Laney> sorry :(
[10:50] <Laney> and hey!
[10:50] <Laney> good gym?
[10:50] <seb128> how was the gym today ?
[10:53] <larsu> exhausting!
[10:53]  * larsu feels very good now :)
[10:56] <Laney> sweet
[11:03] <larsu> pitti: ugh, that MR is the worst
[11:03] <pitti> larsu: the unbreak-my-desktop brightness thing?
[11:03] <pitti> yeah -- this is a kernel/driver issue, not a "let's bikeshed with user settings between off and low"
[11:04] <larsu> ya. Thanks for taking a strong stance against it
[11:04] <pitti> userspace should use the brightness range that the driver offers
[11:04]  * larsu will pile on
[11:04] <larsu> pitti: clearly
[11:06] <larsu> pitti: also, that MR doesn't add the key to gsettings?!
[11:06] <larsu> or is that in deskto-schemas or similar?
[11:06] <pitti> larsu: maybe, I didn't bother to read that far
[11:07] <pitti> this is conceptually wrong, I see little point in discussing the implementation
[11:07] <larsu> ya, of course
[11:07] <Laney> this person works for us...
[11:07] <larsu> no point in reviewing
[11:07] <larsu> old habit
[11:07] <larsu> "oh ... a diff"
[11:07] <Laney> why not come to ask before writing code?
[11:07] <pitti> well, feel free :)
[11:07] <pitti> but if anything we already have too many settings..
[11:08] <seb128> why is the mr emailing the desktop list?
[11:08] <Laney> haha
[11:08] <Laney> so many avenues for discussion
[11:08] <pitti> I set ubuntu-desktop as a reviewer -- bad/wrong team?
[11:08] <pitti> I nacked the patch, but said I'm not the ultimate naysayer, and that it's the desktop team's decision
[11:08] <seb128> unsure we have a team better fit
[11:08] <Laney> it caused people to notice it
[11:08] <pitti> sorry for the spam then
[11:09]  * Laney stabs publisher
[11:09] <seb128> no worry
[11:09] <Laney> hurry up
[11:09] <seb128> it might be good in fact
[11:09] <seb128> getting some activity on the list ;-)
[11:09] <pitti> I think as soon as anyone in the team acks or nacks the team reviewer goes back to that individual
[11:09] <larsu> seb128: lol
[11:09] <seb128> pitti, be +1 your nack in this case, good call! :-)
[11:10] <seb128> larsu, btw how high is the nautilus menus thing on your todo? we should probably get that and the new geo lib landed in the next weeks if we can
[11:10] <seb128> big changes early in the cycle
[11:10] <seb128> then we can collect feedback and deal with bugs
[11:11] <seb128> wdyt?
[11:11] <larsu> highest on my list is wording a comment that doesn't sound too harsh
[11:11] <larsu> seb128: but seriously: yes.
[11:12] <seb128> cool
[11:12] <seb128> larsu, sorry it feels like you got quite some pings/stuff dumped this week
[11:12] <larsu> no worries
[11:12]  * seb128 hugs larsu
[11:12]  * larsu hugs EVERYONE
[11:13] <seb128> almost the w.e don't worry, we can all relax ;-)
[11:13]  * Laney is going to a big family party for Rosie's family
[11:13] <Laney> not sure this is going to be relaxing :P
[11:14] <pitti> Laney: uh, I don't like these much
[11:16] <seb128> Laney, well, maybe entertaining then? :p
[11:16] <seb128> in any case good luck!
[11:16] <Laney> it's some kind of wedding party but not an actual wedding
[11:16]  * Laney doesn't really know
[11:16] <Laney> maybe free food & wine :)
[11:16] <Laney> and I get to go to Norwich which is always nice
[11:17] <Laney> also it appears I have 3 more days of holiday to burn before the end of the year
[11:17] <Laney> BYE GUYS!
[11:18] <seb128> oh, I should probably look at those as well
[11:19] <seb128> I've been good and took 15 days to go to Scottland but I still have like 8 days left
[11:19] <Laney> ya so 8-5 = 3
[11:19] <Laney> Henry Days
[11:20] <seb128> hehe
[11:21] <pitti> the hr.c.c one probably tries to be clever, but the accrual still confuses me a lot
[11:21] <seb128> I don't really understand what thas is about
[11:21] <seb128> they add you a fraction of the yearly count every month?
[11:21] <Laney> I just look at the year end total or whatever it says
[11:21] <Laney> that seems to be right
[11:22] <seb128> yeah, that's what I do
[11:22] <pitti> I'm just not sure if that includes holidays which got approved, but weren't taken yet
[11:22] <pitti> e. g. the christmas ones
[11:22] <Laney> it's not like we actually build up days in that way
[11:22] <Laney> no, it says 8 for me now
[11:22] <willcooke> pitti, same
[11:22] <Laney> which includes the Christmas ones
[11:22] <Laney> I mean, which accounts for them
[11:25] <larsu> hm I don't count as ubuntu desktop :(
[11:25] <Laney> in what sense?
[11:26] <larsu> team on lp
[11:26] <larsu> because upload rights
[11:26] <larsu> but I just noticed it when disapproving that mr
[11:26] <Laney> ah right
[11:26] <Laney> well u-s-d is a different team anwyay
[11:26] <Laney> so you can set the status which matters
[11:27] <larsu> indeed
[11:28] <czajkowski> seb128: not bad thanks at a database conference - which are a little intense but god. Beside us is IBM running rapsberry Pi on Ubuntu hooked into couchbase as their demos so it's nice to see different people doing cool things
[11:28] <seb128> nice
[11:28] <seb128> where is that?
[11:29] <seb128> larsu, don't feel left out :-(
[11:30] <larsu> I don't ;)
[11:30] <seb128> good :-)
[11:36]  * Laney gets 83 emails
[11:36] <czajkowski> seb128: all your base in London today
[11:36] <seb128> Laney is ZE MAN
[11:36] <seb128> Laney, well done!
[11:37] <czajkowski> Laney: oh so what you're saying is you want an even 100
[11:37] <czajkowski> I can send you some more to help you out
[11:39] <Laney> hey czajkowski
[11:39] <Laney> only if they say "here have some free pizza"
[11:39] <Laney> pizza-over-ethernet
[11:44] <seb128> Laney, man, you have been busy
[11:44] <seb128> I only got 23 emails
[11:44] <seb128> still better than nothing ;-)
[11:44] <Laney> I got another 47 just now
[11:45] <Laney> no change rebuilds YEAH!
[11:45] <seb128> haha
[11:45] <Laney> actually quite a few of them were real
[11:45] <Laney> this took up like 3-4 entire days
[11:45] <Laney> :|
[11:45] <Laney> oh, got phonon-backend-vlc to build
[11:46] <seb128> nice!
[11:46] <seb128> I'm 2 uploads ahead of you still :p
[11:46] <Laney> wtf
[11:46] <seb128> 2695 vs 2693
[11:46] <Laney> I was like 18 behind the other day
[11:46] <Laney> before all these rebuilds
[11:47] <Laney> what is this sorcery
[11:47] <seb128> I'm playing tricks :p
[11:47] <Laney> you need to add https://launchpad.net/~laney/+synchronised-packages on too
[11:47] <Laney> :) :) :)
[11:47] <seb128> that's cheating!
[11:47] <Laney> that's the real stuff
[11:47] <seb128> shrug
[11:48] <Laney> wait what
[11:48] <seb128> the real master is pitti it seems
[11:48] <seb128> he wins fairly in each category
[11:48] <Laney> oh yeah ffmpeg was indeed a copy
[11:49] <Laney> true
[11:49] <Laney> destroyed in +uploaded-packages even
[11:49] <seb128> one day, one day...
[11:50]  * Laney goes to make tea before phononing
[11:50] <Laney> then really doing gtk .3
[11:50] <Laney> .4
[11:50]  * seb128 thinks about getting some food
[11:50] <seb128> huuunnngrrry
[11:51]  * larsu sympathizes with seb128
[11:51]  * Laney might actually get to some merges today!
[11:53] <Laney> got some scary things on my list
[11:54] <Laney> mdadm, lintian, dbus, bzr
[11:56] <seb128> speaking of dbus, it's red of version, needs a merge from debian ;-)
[11:56] <seb128> lunch, bbiab
[11:59] <Laney> yes exactly
[12:01] <larsu> seb128: enjoy!
[12:09] <larsu> Laney: not sure what to do about the black window problem... maybe Trevinho can help
[12:09] <larsu> ebassi commented on the bug, but not really helpful
[12:10] <Laney> did you think bisecting would really be helpful?
[12:10] <Laney> if so, might be good to do it
[12:11] <larsu> yeah :'(
[12:12] <Laney> but might have to suck it up and get the sync request work on the compiz team's schedule
[12:13]  * larsu checks if this is happening in 3.16
[12:16] <andyrock> a friend of mine is experiencing some issues on 15.10 with his trackpad
[12:16] <andyrock> basically sometimes the pointer jumps in the top left corner
[12:16] <andyrock> he's using a thinkpad
[12:16] <andyrock> do you know something about it?
[12:18] <larsu> Laney: same problem
[12:19] <Laney> larsu: It sounded to me like it always existed but got more pronounced or something
[12:20] <larsu> I don't see a difference on my machine
[12:20] <Sweet5hark> seb128: issue seems unrelated.
[12:20] <Laney> seb128 said he went back to 3.16 because of it
[12:22] <larsu> hm I'll ask him when he's back from lunch
[12:23] <Laney> I could imagine that the effect varies depending on hardware
[12:23] <Laney> because I certainly see it but I wouldn't describe it as that annoying
[12:23] <Laney> I notice it more on dialogs
[12:23] <Laney> like open a file chooser in gedit
[12:24] <larsu> right, me too
[12:24] <larsu> but about the same on 3.16 and 3.18
[12:29] <desrt> good morning desktop people
[12:29] <Laney> definitely worse here
[12:29] <seb128> larsu, Laney, see http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/gtk.ogv
[12:29] <Laney> I don't see any black flash on 3.16
[12:29] <seb128> it's 3.18 then ld_preload 3.16
[12:29] <Laney> I see some resizing/drawing effect but it's not black
[12:29] <Laney> hey desrt
[12:29] <Laney> happy friday
[12:29] <desrt> happy friday to you too, Laney
[12:29] <desrt> also to hikiko :)
[12:30] <Laney> the chosen
[12:30] <seb128> hey desrt!
[12:30] <desrt> (she always used to say happy [day])
[12:30] <seb128> Sweet5hark, good
[12:30] <hikiko> hi desrt :)
[12:30] <hikiko> happy friday!
[12:30] <desrt> :D
[12:30] <desrt> s/used to say/says/
[12:31] <hikiko> haha
[12:31]  * desrt heats water for coffee and listens to music through speakers playing through a $30 chipamp bought from amazon hooked up to an ancient (1st model) eeepc running pulseaudio network streaming
[12:31] <desrt> this is nice.
[12:32] <larsu> seb128: :(
[12:32] <larsu> morning desrt and hikiko
[12:33] <hikiko> morning larsu :)
[12:34] <desrt> hello seb128 and larsu
[12:34] <seb128> larsu, sorry :-/
[12:35] <larsu> seb128: it'd be fine if I could reproduce at least
[12:35] <seb128> you don't see it at all?
[12:35] <larsu> I see it in both 3.16 and 3.18
[12:35] <seb128> :-(
[12:35] <larsu> most notably when opening multiple windows at once
[12:36] <larsu> or while compiling and then opening a window ;)
[12:36] <Laney> lemme bizezt
[12:36] <larsu> Laney: do you not have it in 3.16?
[12:36] <Laney> no
[12:36] <seb128> our bisect master didn't pick up the challenge?
[12:36] <larsu> weird!
[12:36] <larsu> how am I seeing this then
[12:37] <seb128> larsu, weird that you see it in 3.16 :p
[12:37] <larsu> indeed :)
[12:37] <seb128> nobody reported that on launchpad from wily
[12:37]  * Laney just jhbuilt the gtk-3-16 branch to check
[12:37] <larsu> that's what I did
[12:37] <Laney> then jhbuild run gedit -> ctrl-o
[12:37] <Laney> w33rd
[12:38] <larsu> AHHHH
[12:38] <larsu> nice
[12:38] <larsu> 3.16.0 doesn't have it
[12:38] <seb128> ?!
[12:38] <larsu> gtk-3-16 does
[12:38] <seb128> you just said it did
[12:38] <Laney> haha
[12:38] <Laney> did you build .0?
[12:38] <larsu> now I did
[12:38] <Laney> confused
[12:39]  * larsu bisects like attente
[12:39] <seb128> weird
[12:39] <seb128> gtk 3.16.n didn't have it for me either
[12:39] <larsu> Laney: I built the branch, saw the same bug, then built 3.16.0 and don't see it anymore
[12:39] <seb128> can I suggest you built the wrong thing (tm)? :p
[12:40] <larsu> you can, but you'd probably be wrong
[12:40] <Laney> oh snap
[12:40]  * Laney noms czajkowski
[12:40] <czajkowski> Laney: :)
[12:42] <seb128> larsu, try me! bet is on ;-)
[12:42] <larsu> hehe
[12:42] <czajkowski> Laney: context is a wonderful thing or it does look a tad odd in here :P)
[12:43] <Laney> urgh 10 steps
[12:43] <Laney> czajkowski: it's good to me mysterious
[12:43]  * Laney swooshes off
[12:43] <larsu> you're doing it as well?
[12:44] <Laney> 13/11 12:36:25 <Laney> lemme bizezt
[12:44] <larsu> 6 steps :P
[12:45] <Laney> didn't sound like you managed to get it the same way we do
[12:48] <larsu> Laney, seb128: https://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/commit/?id=9da241b2d0251cafa30a9da13d0299e496a9bded
[12:48]  * larsu makes sure this is actually it
[12:50] <seb128> doesn't make sense
[12:50] <seb128> that was commited for 3.16.1
[12:50] <seb128> but I don't have the issue with 3.16.7 from wily
[12:53] <larsu> whatever I'm seeing is a bug as well though
[12:55] <larsu> anyway, grabbing food now :)
[12:55]  * Laney carries on with le bisect
[12:55] <Laney> this is fun, I see why attente loves these so much
[13:25] <Laney> bisect win!
[13:26] <Laney> 74f2d9448f24bbfdaf32ae6b328ed3e126700afe
[13:28] <Sweet5hark> <- huge fan of bisecting (or bibisecting)
[13:44] <willcooke> Laney, once I've targetted for X, should I remove the rls-x-incoming tag too?
[13:45] <Laney> I guess so
[13:45] <willcooke> *nominated
[13:45] <willcooke> thx
[13:45] <willcooke> seb128, you ok for me to do that ^^^  Or should I leave it as it is for now?
[13:46] <seb128> +1 to do it
[13:46] <Laney> have to keep track of which ones to approve then
[13:47] <seb128> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/commit/?id=74f2d9448f24bbfdaf32ae6b328ed3e126700afe then?
[13:47] <seb128> seems easy to revert ;-)
[13:47] <seb128> though there are equivalent commits for different widgets
[13:51] <Laney> probably ought to understand it...
[13:53] <qengho> Good morning!
[13:57] <willcooke> hey qengho!  See scroll back a Cr issue I'm having today.  Basically, old launcher icon went "funny".  Would launch Cr but a new icon was create on the launcher which shows the pips etc..  Plus when I try and open a link from xchat I get a new window and no link copied over
[14:01] <qengho> willcooke: Hrm. Thanks.
[14:02] <willcooke> qengho, hey, any time :)
[14:02] <qengho> :(
[14:02] <qengho> THAT'S WHAT I FEAR
[14:02] <willcooke> qengho, what can I do to debug?  I'm afraid I removed the original icon
[14:02] <qengho> :)
[14:02] <willcooke> :D:D
[14:03] <willcooke> Did the icon change recently?  It looks to be a slightly different colour?
[14:03] <qengho> willcooke: I think I can figure it out. I have an idea where to look.
[14:03] <willcooke> qengho, ah cool, thanks
[14:03] <willcooke> this is on my 14.04 box
[14:04] <qengho> willcooke: the happyaron was asking about snaps at my 1AM. What did you want us to do?
[14:05] <willcooke> qengho, let's take this to /query
[14:06] <qengho> I didn't have much to tell him, even if I was awake.
[14:38] <larsu> Laney: cool!
[14:38] <larsu> I wonder what bug I'm seeing here
[14:39] <davmor2> larsu: if it has 8 legs it's a spider and the don't appreciate being called bugs ;)
[14:49] <gQuigs> I'm happy to make a pull request to remove software-center, empathy, and brasero..  or is there a reason to wait?
[14:53] <seb128> I'm not in favor of removing software-center until we sort out the impact on unity dash and other things using it
[14:53] <didrocks> +1
[14:53] <seb128> also until we have at least packagekit 1.0 and a building gnome-software
[14:53] <seb128> like at least swap it out for something that is pushed and likely to replace it
[14:54] <larsu> +2
[14:56] <gQuigs> seb128: yea, installing software on the dash breaks if you remove software-center
[14:56] <seb128> so don't
[14:56] <qengho> zing
[14:59] <gQuigs> ok :)
[15:01] <jcastro> c'mon seb128, let 'er rip!
[15:02] <seb128> jcastro, stop hating!
[15:02] <jcastro> no one opens up the dash and is like "man I can't wait to install things from the software center."
[15:02] <flocculant> not everyone using usc actually has a dash ...
[15:02] <mdeslaur> jcastro: so you'd rather not have it work? :)
[15:02] <davmor2> jcastro: There's an airport down the road don't make me get on a plane!
[15:03] <seb128> flocculant, that comment is irrelevant to the discuss though, we are speaking about changing the Ubuntu Desktop seed
[15:03] <seb128> flocculant, which is including Unity and such a dash
[15:03] <flocculant> ok :)
[15:03] <jcastro> seb128: I am half joking, but half want to see a flamethrower burning down some things early in the cycle.
[15:04] <seb128> jcastro, let's burn juju
[15:04] <seb128> that's a thing :p
[15:04] <jcastro> :)
[15:05] <mitya57> Laney, thanks for phonon & phonon-backend-vlc uploads! I have been too busy in the last days that I didn't even have time to read IRC logs :p
[15:09] <gQuigs> heh'  juju can install software and has a gui..
[15:09]  * gQuigs runs away
[15:12] <Laney> mitya57: np, I just nicked some stuff from Debian
[15:13] <Laney> but we also removed them from xenial to make the other stuff transition :P
[15:13] <Laney> it would have been cooler to fix them instead
[15:15] <Laney> bregma: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757261 seems to be waiting for you btw
[15:15]  * didrocks waves good evening and good week-end
[15:16] <didrocks> going to catch a train
[15:16] <Laney> bye didrocks!!!
[15:16]  * Laney tries to type really fast these days
[15:16] <Laney> happy SNCF
[15:16] <Laney> enjoy the tune
[15:16] <didrocks> Laney: merci ! ta da da :)
[15:16] <Laney> he always misses out one note
[15:25] <larsu> argh this commit is killing me
[15:25]  * seb128 is away for some errands
[15:26] <seb128> be back in some hours to deal with another round of emails and backlog before calling it a week
[15:26] <seb128> see you in a bit or have a good w.e if you are off by then!
[15:27] <seb128> willcooke, I played a bit with https://trello.com/b/FQgY4lpN/gnome-work but it imported things under your name because the script has your key, using mine returns a lack of permission error, need to figure out why later on
[15:27] <seb128> (it does the same on a test board I created/owned)
[15:27] <seb128> bbl
[15:27] <willcooke> oki
[15:28] <willcooke> thx seb128
[16:23] <cyphermox> has anyone else noticed this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/1516078
[16:26] <Laney> I don't even have any pulseaudio messages in my syslog
[16:26]  * pitti waves good bye, have a nice evening!
[16:26] <Laney> see you pitti, happy weekend!
[16:28] <larsu> happy weekend pitti!
[16:30] <pitti> o/
[16:37]  * Laney vim ubuntu.xenial/desktop
[16:46]  * qengho afk.
[17:32] <Laney> seb128: back?
[17:33] <Laney> I have a bit in my seed diff dropping gcc and make
[17:33] <Laney> forgot why... do you remember?
[17:33] <Laney> I suppose because dkms?
[17:48] <willcooke> quittin time
[17:48] <willcooke> l8r sk8rs
[18:37] <seb128> Laney, back now...
[18:37] <seb128> Laney, unsure, but dkms seems likely
[18:42] <seb128> cyphermox, no such error here


[20:58] <nahamu> Does anyone know of good examples of how to use a configdrive to bootstrap a network config before handing off to a different datasource? So far all of my experiments have failed.
[20:59] <nahamu> (going afk, but will check for responses later)


[13:16] <om26er> how can i test unity-2d' opengl version ?
[13:18] <om26er> yo :O
[18:20] <mhr3> davidcalle, ping?
[18:21] <davidcalle> mhr3, Ubuntu classroom session.
[18:21] <mhr3> oh
[18:30] <mgedmin> my global menu sporadically stops working
[18:30] <mgedmin> e.g. now I have an xchat-gnome and I can't access its menus
[18:30] <mgedmin> just a few hours ago I had the same problem with a different app; restarting that app made its menus come back
[18:33]  * mgedmin tries to search for an open bug; doesn't find anything on the first page of 75 matches for 'menu', starts reporting a new one
[18:36]  * mgedmin files https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/916555
[19:00] <davidcalle> mhr3, ping
[19:01] <mhr3> davidcalle, i was wondering if you're on precise already? :)
[19:01] <mhr3> or perhaps running 5.0 on oneric?
[19:03] <davidcalle> mhr3, I am
[19:03] <davidcalle> Precise
[19:05] <mhr3> davidcalle, awesome, we could use some testing of the new features in libunity 5.0
[19:06] <davidcalle> mhr3, no problem :)
[19:06] <mhr3> especially sources and filters with remote scopes
[19:06] <mhr3> but of course anything else as well
[19:08] <davidcalle> mhr3, I just need to figure out where to start to port my code :) (I also need to appply Mikkel's pygobject patch, there is an issue with the merger)
[19:09] <mhr3> davidcalle, yea, the pygobject issue sucks... but yea, should affect just the MergeStrategy interface
[19:16] <davidcalle> mhr3, btw, was Budapest nice?
[19:17] <mhr3> davidcalle, nope
[19:17] <mhr3> davidcalle, not just nice, awesome! :)
[19:17] <davidcalle> :-)
[19:19] <davidcalle> mhr3, I need to leave, but if you are around tonight, I will certainly ask you some questions about how to make the most of the new shiny stuff :) Like "how do I get the search string ?" :P
[19:21] <mhr3> davidcalle, heh, same way, but sure, just ping me
[19:21] <davidcalle> Ok :)


[11:37] <manadart> stickupkid, achilleasa: Need a review: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/12528
[14:43] <manadart> Thanks achilleasa. This is a merge forward of the same: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/12530
[14:46] <achilleasa> manadart: done
[14:46] <manadart> Ta.


[00:19] <ZexaronS> Hello
[00:20] <ZexaronS> So this distro is or not fully affiliated with Canonical ?
[00:20] <ZexaronS> And, is it based on LTS editions like LMint ?
[00:20] <ZexaronS> I see some links leading to ubuntu directly, not a good sign :p
[00:22] <ZexaronS> Since Linux Mint will not provide KDE anymore, the 18.3 is the last, I would have to come here
[00:29] <valorie> ZexaronS: Canonical as a corp support Ubuntu in lots of ways, including infrastructure such as bug reporting, machines to do testing
[00:29] <valorie> etc
[00:30] <ZexaronS> Well, yeah, I get some of it, it for-profit, like "google of linux" but I don't want to have anything to do with it
[00:30] <valorie> we are part of the ubuntu project and provide both releases twice a year as well as LTS ever other year
[00:30] <valorie> we are fully non-profit
[00:30] <valorie> ubuntu is non-profit
[00:31] <valorie> Canonical just pays for some of the developers to work on ubuntu
[00:31] <valorie> not on Kubuntu
[00:31] <ZexaronS> I'm hearing that there was a split, that this is not part of the company anymore, or is wikipedia wrong ?
[00:31] <valorie> we get zero money
[00:31] <valorie> it was never part of the company
[00:31] <valorie> just as fedora is not part of Red Hat
[00:31] <valorie> same thing
[00:32] <valorie> where does wikipedia say we were ever "part" of Canonical?
[00:32] <valorie> our lead devel used to be paid by Canonical but that hasn't been true for years
[00:32] <ZexaronS> Well I'm not necessairly issue as money-it-self, but more of a thing that the one who provides the funds also controls the direction ... I'm not interested in social,movie,music stuff for example, and I don't want the GUI to look like a mobile phone
[00:33] <valorie> we are in charge of our own destiny and use Plasma desktop, etc.
[00:33] <valorie> KDE applications
[00:33] <valorie> that doesn't mean you *can't* use gnome apps etc
[00:34] <valorie> because you can use any packaged applications or even themes etc.
[00:34] <valorie> but what we provide and package is almost 100 % from KDE
[00:34] <ZexaronS> Yes, I like KDE, it's putting my HW to some good use
[00:34] <valorie> the exceptions are VLC, SDDM, etc.
[00:34] <valorie> allies of KDE
[00:35] <valorie> well, download the latest and burn it to a thumbdrive, and see what you think
[00:35] <valorie> the LTS will be out in April
[00:36] <valorie> as I said, next October we'll do a release as usual which will be non-LTS
[00:37] <valorie> we used to work with Mint as well, but now that they have ceased their Plasma edition we don't see the devels around here anymore
[00:37] <ZexaronS> Just trying to find a distro meant for serious adult technical people and not for 20 year old social trendies, but the trendyness is just overflowing including in most of the linux world, the release video of Kubuntu is about music and videos, how can you explain that ?
[00:37] <valorie> :(
[00:38] <ZexaronS> trailer, or what it was
[00:38] <valorie> I assume the creator of the video thought that translated best to video?
[00:38] <valorie> office applications aren't very sexy on video
[00:39] <valorie> lol
[00:40] <ZexaronS> Because, if so many people have based Windows all these years, slowly, linux stuff will turn into that because enough low-bar masses move into it, then it's going to be the same story allover again of configuring and tweaking the installation to get rid of the average-user gimmicks
[00:44] <valorie> ZexaronS: usability is usability
[00:44] <valorie> we've always wanted to be the friendly distribution
[00:44] <valorie> friendly to newcomers as well as experts
[00:45] <valorie> not a problem to cater to people who want to use their linux to play games, watch movies, listen to music
[00:45] <ZexaronS> Seems like there's always extremes out there, one group of haxor people want to use everything in terminal and another group are the invading trendies going full google-style
[00:45] <valorie> as long as those who need good office apps or educational software or video editing or scientific software also find what they need
[00:46] <valorie> we need good guis as well as excellent cli tools
[00:46] <valorie> they aren't exclusive
[00:46] <valorie> we should offer the best software store along with supporting apt and pkcon
[00:46] <valorie> and we strive to do that
[00:46] <ZexaronS> or windows10 style, basically dubm-style, that's how the new GUIs look, I think it's quite an understatement to call them clean, they're dumb, as in 1st grader, when I see that it makes me feel dumb, as if I just entered a kindergarden, bizzare really.
[00:47] <valorie> dunno, haven't really used it
[00:47] <valorie> my husband is a win user however
[00:47] <valorie> he wants his photoshop and will never leave win
[00:47] <valorie> which is fine
[00:48] <ZexaronS> I am as well, I just finished installing Win10 and tweaking the crap out of it to get my behavior like I had in Win7. Soon I will also mod the icon files to get them all looking like in Win7 (which happen to be hardcoded system files, but that's no prob)
[00:49] <ZexaronS> Also, excuse me, I'm ranting a bit.
[00:49] <ZexaronS> Took me 1 full week to get Win10 going right, exhausted!
[00:49] <valorie> wow
[00:49] <valorie> a new install of Kubuntu takes me around 30 mins
[00:50] <valorie> :-)
[00:51] <valorie> that includes setting up the apps that aren't included by default, like yakuake
[00:53] <ZexaronS> But don't get me wrong, I have nothing against usability and the type of people who might have other genuine focus to not use a system like a big PC guru would, but there's a large group of those type of people who purposelly don't want to know things and are looking for easy-peasy on-a-silver-plate solutions, naturally those people should not be endorsed because they're pulling everything else down, and distros shouldn't feed on them
[00:55] <ZexaronS> And I'm all for peaceful coexistance, I just have a problem where things are setup for those kind of people first and foremost, the default settings of a program, are always biased toward the simplicity
[00:56] <valorie> there I will disagree with you
[00:57] <valorie> we need to make it easy for new users to switch to linux
[00:57] <valorie> because FOSS is based on privacy, control of your own destiny, and power
[00:57] <valorie> if windows is easier, we will continue to lose
[00:57] <valorie> but now, dinner time here
[00:58] <valorie> good talking with ya
[00:58] <ZexaronS> later
[00:58] <ZexaronS> But see ... if that's what it takes, then these people should be taught to become better, not stay down at the elementary-school level.
[03:03] <Guest35032> hi,  is there a way to make the 'minimize windows' widget in the panel active at the edge of the screen with mouse? (similar to how windows and some linux desktops do)
[03:10] <valorie> please change your nick or I'll need to ask you to leave
[03:10] <valorie> user-formerly-known as Guest35032
 @Guest35032, Sytem settings -> desktop behavior, Screen edges can be set to show desktop.  Does that work as needed?
[07:44] <krashed> sup guys, anyone want to help me with my kde neon? sddm is a black screen with the cursor visible
[07:44] <krashed> it's a fresh install of kde neon. Something that might have caused the problem: "sudo apt install kio-extras"
[07:45] <krashed> also this might be related: Cannot mix incompatible Qt library (version 0x50903) with this library (version 0x50a00)
[07:46] <krashed> I can go into tty. I also managed to get internet access through it. anyone knows what I can to to debug or anything?
[07:59] <acheronuk> !neon | krashed
[08:48] <mark__> hi all, I'm on kubuntu 18.04 and loving it! I think this will be a fantastic LTS release. I'm now using it on two different machines, one with intel graphics, the other with nvidia graphics. Using Nvidia binary driver working really well. Discover is also massively improved and is starting to look promising. I have noticed though in the last update to discover that there is a little pop up appearing that seems to have
[08:48] <mark__> information about packages but it disappears too quickly off the screen to be usable. Does anyone know where that information can be found outside the pop up? Shouldn't the pop up be persistent until the user closes it?
[11:50] <buovjaga> hey, there is something wrong with LibreOffice packaging in Kubuntu: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98776#c25
[11:58] <acheronuk> buovjaga: kubuntu does not package libreoffice, so needs a bug reporting against it
[13:30] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[16:40] <D0U91E> sorry - I keep asking then get distracted and miss the answer...
[16:40] <D0U91E> can i safely do release upgrade from 14.04 lts to 18.04 lts?
[16:41] <D0U91E> or do we recommend a fresh install?
[16:47] <mparillo> D0U91E: Is 14.04 the last Plasma 4 LTS?
[16:47] <acheronuk> D0U91E: no, not supported
[16:48] <acheronuk> even 14.04 -> 16.04 is not advised
[16:55] <D0U91E> thanks guys
[18:03] <GerryTheUnicorn> test
[19:43] <D0U91E> what does it mean when HD grinds away constantly and 1604 becomes unresponsive?
[20:11] <valorie> D0U91E: you may have a failing drive
[20:11] <valorie> :(
[20:11] <valorie> I would log out of plasma and drop to a terminal and do a backup
[20:12] <D0U91E> I thought of that too...yes back up...
[20:12] <valorie> and then do checkdsk or similar
[20:12] <valorie> rsync is probably the best bet
[20:12] <D0U91E> maybe new ssd and copy home folder
[20:13] <valorie> I've had a few HDs fail
[20:13] <D0U91E> doesn't that s.m.a.r.t. help in a failing drive senario?
[20:13] <valorie> no SSDs yet though
[20:13] <valorie> that I don't know
[20:13] <D0U91E> ssd not ready for prime time you mean?
[20:13] <valorie> no, I mean all the SSDs I've had have been great
[20:14] <valorie> not one failure yet
[20:14] <valorie> knock on wood
[20:14] <valorie> lol
[20:14] <D0U91E> ok good to know I have 1 ssd - adata and work for windblows need one for my deserving kubuntu
[20:15] <valorie> best of luck -- you may end up with some corrupted data
[20:16] <valorie> so don't write over a previous good backup
[20:19] <D0U91E> thank you valorie
[20:52] <kamba> helo
[20:54] <D0U91E> hello
[21:46] <kamba> hello. can anybody help me set hidpi display on kubuntu. i have resulutin  2880x1620  on laptop, and fullHD on right of laptop. i managed to get scaling, but the destop enviroment sams unscaled
[21:47] <kamba> its kubuntu 17.10, and i used this command: xrandr --dpi 144 --fb 5760x3240 --output eDP-1 --mode 2880x1620 --output DP-2-1 --mode 1920x1080 --scale 1.5x1.5 --pos 2880x0 --panning 2880x1620+2880+0
[21:53] <valorie> !hidpi
[21:53] <valorie> huh
[21:56] <kamba> i have a screenshot what i got on below link
[21:56] <kamba> https://ibb.co/cH4mNc
[22:03] <valorie> kamba: you might be able to get some help in #plasma or #kde
[22:03] <valorie> unfortunately it's a bit late on Sunday night for most of the europeans
[22:04] <valorie> I got hidpi all set up on my laptop but I have no other displays
[22:04] <valorie> my only remaining issue is in the terminal
[22:05] <valorie> I have to get out a magnifying glass (literally) to ensure I'm running the correct commands!
[23:38] <wmoreno3|19053> How I do to install putty on desktop? I could install on Konsole
[23:43] <D0U91E> use ssh
[23:44] <D0U91E>  windows does not need to install putty will just run by double clicking


[04:25] <Unit193> skellat: You like speex over opus?! ;)
[04:26] <skellat> Unit193: At least Firefox recognizes it as an Ogg container but then decides to have a heart attack as it doesn't recognize the codec
[04:27] <skellat> Unit193: Is there an Opus encoder in Lubuntu 12.04?  If not, I'm not really supposed to mess with the production machine too too much...
[04:29] <skellat> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=opus-tools
[04:29] <jenni> [ Ubuntu – Package Search Results -- opus-tools ] - https://j.mp/1hm4f1z
[04:30] <Unit193> There was an SRU for that, but it didn't happen.
[04:32] <skellat> If it wasn't there in the first place it would've been a backport
[04:32] <skellat> I suppose I could fire up backportpackage and see if this would melt my PPA builder trying to get it to go to 12.04
[04:35] <skellat> I'll check ppa:skellat/tests in a few hours to see if opus-tools built for 12.04 then
[04:36] <skellat> Since the version number hasn't changed much between quantal and trusty I might get away with an easy time filling out the requestbackport-generated paperwork
[04:38] <skellat> It actually shouldn't be a problem since it was merely copied from Debian for Quantal and hasn't been touched since
[04:50] <Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~opus-developers/+archive/stable ?
[04:50] <jenni> [ Stable Opus releases : “Opus Developers” team ] - https://j.mp/1hm5U7l
[04:50] <Unit193> That is the only one I know.
[04:53] <skellat> That only gives you opus, not opus-tools
[04:54] <skellat> As backportpackage run #1 blew up in a builder due to a missing build dependency
[04:55] <skellat> opus gives you the runtime to the codec which is great...but I still need the command line tools to produce usable files...
[04:58] <Unit193> ...So that means you don't want vlc master daily, right? ;)
[05:02] <skellat> Unit193: VLC file conversions are interesting except they run 1:1 which is too slow for the workflow
[05:02] <Unit193> No, I was kidding about https://launchpad.net/~videolan/+archive/master-daily
[05:02] <jenni> [ VLC Daily Build of master branch : “Videolan” team ] - https://j.mp/1hm6JwW
[05:03] <skellat> I'm not that daring.  Jean-Baptiste Kempf is an interesting fella.  I haven't spoken to him since I lived in metro Las Vegas, though.
[05:03] <skellat> (Monsieur Kempf is leader of that project)
[05:08]  * skellat wanders off to bed


[17:57]  * charlie-tca waves
[17:58] <jussi> o/
[17:59] <topyli> olaaa
[17:59]  * charlie-tca would like to observe, if it is permitted
[18:00] <tsimpson> anyone is welcome to participate (or observe)
[18:01] <jussi> so, do we have nhandler or Pici?
[18:01] <Pici> Greetings
[18:02] <jussi> right, I can chair, just let me grab a drink
[18:03] <Pici> poor jussi
[18:04] <Pici> Needs to drink just to make it through one of our meetings..
[18:04] <topyli> the chair is drunk!
[18:04] <jussi> awesome
[18:04] <IdleOne> heya
[18:04] <jussi> #startmeeting
[18:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:04. The chair is jussi.
[18:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:04] <jussi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[18:05] <jussi> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[18:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
[18:05] <jussi> [topic] -offtopic 'support' discussion policy
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  -offtopic 'support' discussion policy
[18:05] <jussi> Pici: your up.
[18:05] <tonyyarusso> jussi: You're!
[18:05] <ikonia> hello
[18:05] <Pici> Thats me!
[18:05] <jussi> meh :D
[18:05] <IdleOne> lol tonyyarusso
[18:06] <tonyyarusso> That's!
[18:06] <Pici> Let me just type this up.
[18:08] <Pici> Okay, This particular one has been bothering me for a bit.  I feel that we have a bit of a problem with either the definition or enforcement of the 'no supoort questions' in -offtopic rule.  Many of us use -offtopic as a place to relax when we're not doing support in #*ubuntu, and the support questions distract from that.  On the flip side, lots of questions aren't really apropriate for any #*ubuntu-* channel and people come ...
[18:08] <Pici> ... to -ot to try to get them answered.
[18:09] <Pici> Additionally, sometimes benign complaints from people about Ubuntu turn into support questions and often people don't want to move to #ubuntu to get them solved.
[18:09] <Pici> Also!: Some people think that because we are willing to answer one simple question in -ot that it makes it okay to only ask there and not in any of the main support channels.
[18:10] <ikonia> Pici: the ubuntu name space is MASSIVE there is a channel appropriate for almost any support question
[18:10] <Pici> I don't know what we should or can do about this, but I think we should put something together besides the 'This is not a support channel' in the topic to make it clear to both users and operators what is allowed and what isn't/.
[18:10] <ikonia> I don't see why ubuntu-offtopic should be used as a lazy option
[18:10] <jussi> I don't have any problem with the occasional support question in -ot. just people shouldn't expect good answers.
[18:11] <Pici> ikonia: Not everything is Ubuntu related.
[18:11] <ikonia> Pici: then use the appropriate channel
[18:11] <topyli> one other thing against -ot support is that it becomes backup for people who can't immediately get answers in #ubuntu, or worse, are banned
[18:11] <ikonia> I have no issues with technical discussion/questions, but "I can't get skype to install" doesn't fit
[18:11] <Tm_T> what topyli said
[18:11] <ikonia> this is a very common situation in #kubuntu-offtopic also
[18:12] <Pici> topyli: agreed.
[18:12] <jussi> I think theres a difference between "anyone got any idea on such and such" in a conversational fashion,  and someone just coming because they are banned, lazy or otherwise.
[18:12] <topyli> still it's a fine line
[18:12] <Tm_T> ikonia: I'm ok for having more technical (and often non-kubuntu related) discussion and helping in kubuntu-offtopic
[18:12] <ikonia> Tm_T: I'm not
[18:13] <Pici> Theres a difference between technical discussion and support, but I agree that its a fine line in some cases.
[18:13] <IdleOne> i think that any clearly ubuntu support related question should be directed to the proper channel. Just saying "this is NOT a support channel" and not offering the correct venue is rude.
[18:13] <ikonia> Tm_T: I think discussion is great, but people are using it for support as #kubuntu can be quiet
[18:13] <Tm_T> ikonia: ye, often it's better in support channel
[18:13] <tonyyarusso> I don't mind when -ot regulars ask something because they happened to be thinking about it, but when people join to ask a support question that's not helpful.
[18:13] <ikonia> Pici: common sense application, direct to correct channel if it's getting into a "my samba box won't authenticate" type of situation
[18:14] <jussi> I really think this comes back to the "common sense" thing - ops need to guide the discussion where appropriate. Some, casual support shouldnt be an issue f we regulate too hard we will discourage people from coming at all.
[18:14] <jussi> tonyyarusso: +1
[18:14] <ikonia> jussi: if they are coming for support only, then they should'nt be there
[18:14] <ikonia> but I agree, common sense and juding the state of the channel/discussion/question would be best
[18:15] <ikonia> the only issue is it now opens the door for "you let $X talk about $Y - why not me"
[18:15] <Pici> ikonia: Right, which is why I put this on the agenda.
[18:15] <Pici> As much as I don't like having to codify every part of what we do, I think that in this case some sort of guidelines would be best.
[18:16] <tonyyarusso> We don't necessarily need to be kicking people out for asking a support question, but something I often see is that person A asks the question, person B tells them it's not a support channel and directs them to the proper place to follow up with their issue, and then person C starts answering/discussing the question anyway - person C is where we need to change things, not person A.
[18:16] <tonyyarusso> ie, explaining to those in the channel how we would like to deal with such things, and making sure everyone is clear and on board with our plan.
[18:17] <Pici> Would it help if I put together an OfftopicSupportGuidelines page? Or is that too much?
[18:17] <topyli> that would validate the concept of "support in -ot" :)
[18:17] <jussi> Pici: I think an appropriate paragrapgh on the guidelines might be better
[18:17] <IdleOne> least with a page like that everybody could be clear on what is what
[18:18] <Pici> Okay, I'll write something up and we can discuss it next meeting or so.
[18:18] <jussi> ok, great.
[18:18] <Pici> jussi: Throw an [action] at me
[18:18] <jussi> [ACTION] Pici to write a proposal
[18:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Pici to write a proposal
[18:18] <IdleOne> heh
[18:18] <Pici> wee
[18:18] <jussi> bleh
[18:18] <IdleOne> vague any?
[18:19] <jussi> backspace way too close to enter
[18:19] <Pici> Well *I* know what I'm doing.
[18:19] <topyli> "trust me"
[18:19] <Pici> "Come with me if you want to live"
[18:19] <jussi> [topic] Please provide an active wiki page displaying all pending items/actions and their current status and last updated date
[18:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  Please provide an active wiki page displaying all pending items/actions and their current status and last updated date
[18:20] <jussi> ikonia: youre up
[18:20] <jussi> tonyyarusso: shush :P
[18:20] <jussi> tonyyarusso: or do you really want the ' :P
[18:21] <ikonia> I think this has been discussed before
[18:21] <tonyyarusso> I'll jus't use extr'a to make u'p for it.
[18:21] <ikonia> just needs an active/maintained wiki page showing what's being one by the council
[18:21] <ikonia> partially already covered by the reproting process
[18:21] <jussi> So did I. We have put more effor into the team report, and we aim to maintain that: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCCouncil/TeamReports/
[18:21] <topyli> we have discussed this in our smoke-filled cabinet too, and jussi has done someth...
[18:21] <topyli> like so
[18:22] <jussi> ikonia: shall we skip to the next one?
[18:22] <ikonia> what was next sorry
[18:22] <ikonia> ooh yes
[18:22] <jussi> [topic] Ubuntu IRC name space over crowded and managed to different standards beyond that of the Ubuntu IRC principles.
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu IRC name space over crowded and managed to different standards beyond that of the Ubuntu IRC principles.
[18:22] <ikonia> skip this one, I think it's covered
[18:22] <ikonia> ah, this is painful, strap in
[18:22] <jussi> is Seeker`here?
[18:23] <IdleOne> doesn't appear to be
[18:23] <jussi> right, moving on then.
[18:23] <jussi> [topic] Ubuntu operator recruitment process a waste of time, impractical and not required
[18:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu operator recruitment process a waste of time, impractical and not required
[18:23] <ikonia> whoaaa
[18:23] <ikonia> what happened to the name space overcrowed ?
[18:23] <jussi> ikonia: you said skip it?
[18:23] <topyli> i think anyone can volunteer to help us without formal proposals in meetings, btw
[18:24] <ikonia> I meant the wiki page one , that had been discussed before and I think a solution is in progres
[18:24] <ikonia> progress
[18:24] <jussi> oh, letws go back then :)
[18:24] <jussi> Sorry
[18:24] <ikonia> no problem, IRC delay
[18:25] <tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList for reference
[18:25] <ikonia> bascially, the IRC name space for ubuntu is massive, and they all have different standards rules, (excluding locos) I think there needs to be some namespace rules which you HAVE to accept before you can open an #ubuntu- channel
[18:26] <Pici> Such as?
[18:26] <ikonia> language, COC, that sort of thing
[18:26] <jussi> Well they do - they must be coc compliant
[18:26] <IdleOne> they aren't always
[18:26] <Pici> ikonia: Is there a particular channel that you're thinking of that doesn't meet those?
[18:26] <ikonia> ok - so there needs to be a policy where people sign up their channel agreeing it as the owner
[18:26] <ikonia> Pici: there are a few,
[18:27] <IdleOne> some channels are a lot more slack about the language rule
[18:27] <ikonia> other things like a minimum or 2 ops etc
[18:27] <jussi> If you know some, please send us mail or ping us.
[18:27] <ikonia> just a basic set of requirements
[18:27] <ikonia> it's too easy to just start #ubuntu-$blah and do what you want
[18:27] <jussi> ikonia: +1 on the 2 foundrs
[18:27] <tonyyarusso> Elephant in the room example of language laxness:  -devel :P
[18:27] <IdleOne> IRCC MUST be on the access list should be one also
[18:27] <ikonia> IdleOne: tough as ircc are only responsible for core channels
[18:28] <ikonia> jussi: I'll knockup up some base outlines if that's acceptable, nothing tough, just obvious stuff
[18:28] <jussi> ikonia: no, we are responsible across the namespace - we are group contacts
[18:28] <jussi> ikonia: that would be great
[18:28] <ikonia> that way there is something written down to be judged on or held accountable to
[18:28] <ikonia> thats fine, I'll sort that
[18:28] <jussi> Pici: topyli tsimpson thoughts?
[18:28] <tonyyarusso> Once Freenode implements their new Group Management System there will be a technical prevention in place to prevent opening of a new #ubuntu-* channel without approval, but we'll probably all be dead before that happens.
[18:28] <Pici> We're only directly responsible for the operation of the core channels though.
[18:28] <ikonia> topyli: willl you be my scribe for the wiki again (joking)
[18:29] <topyli> ikonia: certainly, if you deliver such quality drafts :)
[18:29] <jussi> Pici: to a point, if there is an issue with a non core channel, then its our issue.
[18:29] <topyli> (like you did last time)
[18:29] <jussi> right so.
[18:29] <Pici> jussi: I agree. I wasn't disagreeing with your prior point.
[18:30] <jussi> [action] ikonia to draft a set of basic guidelines for channel creation
[18:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ikonia to draft a set of basic guidelines for channel creation
[18:30] <tsimpson> so we're talking about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/CreatingChannels? (which seems to be well hidden on the wiki)
[18:30] <jussi> ikonia: may I suggest you use the current channel creation page as a base?
[18:30] <tonyyarusso> I'm still a bit "concerned" that certain core channels still see themselves as a separate community rather than part of Ubuntu and want to maintain parallel control - we really ought to have a more binary status of being an Ubuntu core channel or not, rather than fuzzy "we're just not talking about this" statuses.
[18:30] <topyli> tsimpson: that would seem an appropriate place for it
[18:30] <ikonia> jussi: totally, the more thats there, the easier it is
[18:31] <jussi> tonyyarusso: thats coming later, hold your horses :D
[18:31] <tonyyarusso> Oh, okie doke :)
[18:31] <ikonia> tonyyarusso: hang in, thats on the agenda
[18:31] <jussi> ikonia: shall we move on?
[18:31] <tonyyarusso> ah, I see it now.
[18:31] <ikonia> sure
[18:31] <jussi> right, so I topiced it already...
[18:31] <jussi>  ikoniayou're turn again
[18:32] <ikonia> which one is it, I missed the topic
[18:32] <ikonia> (not got wiki open, on console)
[18:32] <jussi> buntu operator recruitment process a waste of time, impractical and not required
[18:32] <ikonia> ta
[18:33] <ikonia> ok, so I personally feel the operator recruitment process is not a useful process and actually an attempt to pay lip service to have $something rather than actually apply it, I don't find it usable and I find the council members bypassing it when appropriate
[18:34] <tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
[18:34] <ikonia> tonyyarusso: you're on fire
[18:34] <jussi> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
[18:34] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
[18:34] <Pici> Stop drop and roll.
[18:35] <IdleOne> Trust him if you want to live
[18:35] <jussi> ikonia: could you explain some more?
[18:35] <Pici> ikonia: Are you talking about #ubuntu+1 when you mean that the process has been bypassed?
[18:35] <tonyyarusso> The actual requirements part is relatively straightforward, really.  Do you mean that, or the "application process"?
[18:35] <ikonia> Pici: yes, that is an example of it
[18:35] <ikonia> tonyyarusso: the application process
[18:36] <ikonia> I don't find the advertising and application process useful for finding the best candidates (in my view) I don't find the testominals process on wiki pages useful,
[18:36] <tonyyarusso> Agreed.  Steps 1 and 4 are the only ones I think we really need.
[18:36] <ikonia> I just don't feel the actual application process where people who have not even visited the channel they are applying to be an op in as worth while
[18:36] <ikonia> then having to sort through the applications is a waste
[18:36] <ikonia> rather than approaching people who appear to make good ops when needed
[18:37] <tonyyarusso> If you're actually fit for the job, you shouldn't need a wiki page or testimonial, since we should already know who you are and why you're qualified.
[18:37] <ikonia> Pici: FYI: I approve of what you did with +1 but it bypassed the process that is now being made a meal of for #ubuntu-ops
[18:37] <tsimpson> ikonia: we didn't just arbitrarily decide to bypass the process for +1, we decided and voted at a meeting
[18:37] <tonyyarusso> I'd say basically apply on Launchpad to express interest, and then the Council can just skim the list looking for people they recognize as useful.
[18:37] <topyli> ikonia: the thing is, we don't know everybody who might be a good op anymore. it probably worked well in 2005
[18:38] <bilalakhtar> Sorry for coming right in between the meeting, but I would like something to be discussed. Its concerning the recent increase of spam on the ubuntu channels and elsewhere on freenode, and whether we should add a line to the #ubuntu topic on the fact that users should ignore spam. Please poke me when all agenda items are over and this could be discussed. Thanks!
[18:38] <jussi> ikonia: tonyyarusso - the CC made the decision we needed to have an application process, However, perhaps we can make it better?
[18:38] <topyli> ikonia: sorting the applications hasn't been that big a burden either
[18:38] <ikonia> tsimpson: that doesn't make it acceptable, you have that process, when it was talked about for #ubuntu-ops it was pushed to the process, rather than common sense
[18:38] <Pici> tonyyarusso: The problem is that we're not active 24 hours and we don't know everyone who contributes.
[18:38] <IdleOne> topyli: ask the current ops to look over the IRCC picks for possible op?
[18:38] <ikonia> jussi: I think there should be a process, don't disagree, I just think the other one is not appropriate or a good use of time
[18:38] <IdleOne> get the current ops opinions and then make a final decision
[18:38] <Pici> I'd be for letting the current ops be part of the voting process.
[18:38] <tonyyarusso> jussi: I think it's useful to apply, rather than the IRCC just /query-ing people to say "hey, wanna op?" (that's how I started), but I don't know if it needs anything more than just applying.
[18:39] <jussi> We already garner opinions from the current ops
[18:39] <tonyyarusso> topyli has a point though.
[18:39] <topyli> Pici: we do consult the current ops
[18:39] <tsimpson> ikonia: it was also decided at a meeting that -ops should be a "normal" core channel as far as op process goes
[18:39] <ikonia> tsimpson: but so is #ubuntu+1
[18:39] <ikonia> and that wasn't treated as normal
[18:39] <Pici> topyli: We only did that this time because I suggested it, its not even really part of the application process.
[18:40] <tonyyarusso> While the IRCC won't know everyone who would make a good op, if we're doing our jobs well I would imagine SOMEBODY on the ops team should know something about any of the people who would be good, so perhaps the "solicit feedback" step is useful, but not the wiki page and whatnot.
[18:40] <topyli> Pici: it should be :)
[18:40] <tsimpson> ikonia: my point being: when we decided to depart from the process, it was a special decision, with a public vote at a meeting
[18:40] <ikonia> tsimpson: yes, but the same was not done for #ubuntu-ops when people where crying out for people ASAP
[18:40] <tonyyarusso> bilalakhtar: You can add it to the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda  - if we don't get to it today I'd imagine we can roll it over to the next meeting's agenda.
[18:40] <ikonia> it was put to the drawn out process and not vote of overiding it was called
[18:40] <jussi> When the Ubuntu IRC Council notices the need to have more operators in a particular channel or channels, or to add another Core Operator, they will send an email to the ubuntu-irc mailing list. After this email is sent, there will be a one week period for any last minute applications and/or for applicants to finish updating their wiki pages. During this time Testimonials and concerns can be emailed direct to the Ubuntu IRC Council mailing list
[18:40] <jussi> , or listed on the applicants wiki page.
[18:41] <IdleOne> the wiki testimonials put me in a weird position this last round, I chose to not give any public testimonials because I did not want to hurt any feelings.
[18:41] <ikonia> jussi: but you didn't to that
[18:41] <ikonia> you started putting it in channel topics, advertising in ubuntu planet
[18:41] <ikonia> it became a publicity show
[18:41] <jussi> ikonia: we did!
[18:41] <ikonia> jussi: yes,
[18:41] <topyli> IdleOne: mailing irc-council@ works too, and it's private
[18:42] <IdleOne> topyli: and that is what I did thanks to Pici's email asking for opinions
[18:42] <ikonia> topyli: I don't believe that's valid
[18:42] <ikonia> ops where chosen for channels they have never visited
[18:42] <tonyyarusso> ikonia: I put it in the -ot topic actually.
[18:42] <ikonia> tonyyarusso: yes, but it still happened
[18:42] <ikonia> I don't care who did it
[18:42] <ikonia> the process is documented
[18:42] <Pici> ikonia: I don't believe  that happened.
[18:42] <ikonia> Pici: we disagree on that
[18:43] <ikonia> but that's not for this meeting
[18:43] <tonyyarusso> jussi: I'm unclear how the wiki pages are useful at all.  I think just e-mailing the IRCC directly (and privately) with feedback on the full slate is probably appropriate.
[18:43] <jussi> I dont have any issue with putting in the topic or planet or so - just because the process doesnt say we must do that it doesn mean we cant.
[18:43] <ikonia> I'm just expressing that I feel the current process is not worthwhile and does not bring the best results
[18:43] <ikonia> jussi: I do have an issue with it
[18:43] <ikonia> jussi: the process requires you to be subscribed to the mailing list
[18:43] <ikonia> that's where it should happen
[18:44] <tonyyarusso> I also don't think the announcement is really useful.  If we're going to announce, we should do it loudly, but we'd probably be better off not doing so at all.
[18:44] <jussi> ikonia: not everyone who can and should be an op is on the list
[18:44] <Pici> I don't expect all of our helpers to be subscribed to the list.
[18:44] <ikonia> if you want to be an op - you should be on the list to meet th erequirements
[18:44] <ikonia> jussi: then they don't meet the requirements
[18:44] <ikonia> really ?
[18:44] <tonyyarusso> If someone's interested in the position, they should be actually interested enough to apply, not do it on a lark because we decided this week was the one where we were "seeking" people.
[18:45] <ikonia> maybe leave that as an option for the council to think about an alternative process
[18:45] <tonyyarusso> ikonia: The wording of the requirements does not clearly say that being subscribed to the list is a *prerequisite*, only that they must after accepting the position.
[18:45] <ikonia> as I don't think you'll get a solution in this discussion
[18:45] <topyli> ikonia: what's your suggestion then? we go back to nominating ops at will?
[18:45] <ikonia> topyli: as and when needed, ask the team for opinions as the team are active in the channels they are in
[18:45] <ikonia> at a high level
[18:46] <ikonia> but I appreicate thats over simple
[18:46] <Pici> How about we all think about this and return to the topic at another meeting?
[18:46] <ikonia> Pici: thats my suggestion, it just in my view needs tweaking to be more usable,
[18:47] <tonyyarusso> My proposal:  1) People "apply" on Launchpad continuously.  2) At certain times (perhaps on a predefined schedule) the IRCC compiles a list of those who have done so and forwards it to the ML.  3) Current ops send feedback to the IRCC on all names on that list.  4) Based on that feedback, the IRCC chooses new ops and announces them on the list.
[18:47] <Pici> We don't need to come up with answers right now, but getting the brainstorming started is a good start.
[18:47] <ikonia> Pici: exactly, I'm not expecting a solution now, just making my opinion that it's not working known
[18:47] <IdleOne> I like tonyyarusso proposal
[18:48] <jussi> tonyyarusso: thats pretty much what we do now, no?
[18:48] <topyli> i like tonyyarusso's proposal too. it's the current process isn't it? :)
[18:48] <IdleOne> no, not quite
[18:48] <IdleOne> remove the wiki testimonials
[18:48] <IdleOne> no need for them
[18:48] <tonyyarusso> jussi: with like three extra steps, that unnecessariness being the issue, afaict.
[18:49] <IdleOne> + ask current ops for opinions
[18:49] <jussi> ikonia: thats in there
[18:49] <jussi> IdleOne:
[18:49] <jussi> sorry
[18:49] <Pici> Its not clear.
[18:49] <IdleOne> make it clear :)
[18:49] <topyli> aye
[18:50] <jussi> Ok, so we need to clarify whats written there, and perhaps remove the wiki page part?
[18:50] <tonyyarusso> Sounds right.
[18:50] <topyli> ok, sounds sane
[18:50] <jussi> Imfine with that, shall we vote?
[18:50] <ikonia> how about a sponsorship process ?
[18:50] <ikonia> eg: get sponsorship from 2 existing ops
[18:50] <ikonia> something like that
[18:50] <IdleOne> going around asking people for a testimonial puts people in awkward position. I might like the person and feel they do an awesome job in the community but that does not mean I think they would be good op material
[18:50] <tonyyarusso> ikonia: How would that have added value over soliciting opinions already?
[18:50] <tonyyarusso> IdleOne: +1
[18:50] <ikonia> tonyyarusso: because it stops random people just applying
[18:51] <ikonia> tonyyarusso: if you can't find an op to sponsor you....there is something wrong
[18:51] <ikonia> it's only a thought
[18:51] <tsimpson> ikonia: I certainly don't think that should be a prerequisite
[18:51] <tonyyarusso> ikonia: Who cares if random people apply?  Unless the list has like 100 people on it and becomes burdensome to compile, I don't see a problem.
[18:51] <topyli> ikonia: we're not having a problem with "random people". if it becomes a problem, we can think
[18:51] <charlie-tca> Isn't sponsorship the same as getting testamonials from other ops?
[18:51] <IdleOne> me either, it invites begging for ops
[18:51] <Pici> Yes.
[18:51] <ikonia> fair enough
[18:52] <jussi> [vote] clarify the process for op applications and remove the wiki page requirement
[18:52] <MootBot> Please vote on:  clarify the process for op applications and remove the wiki page requirement.
[18:52] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[18:52] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[18:52] <topyli> +1
[18:52] <MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[18:52] <jussi> +1
[18:52] <MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[18:52] <tsimpson> +1
[18:52] <MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[18:52] <Pici> I'd prefer to see everything written up before voting....
[18:53] <Pici> -1
[18:53] <MootBot> -1 received from Pici. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[18:53] <tonyyarusso> Pici: I think we're voting on doing the writeup - approving the actual result will come next meeting.
[18:53] <jussi> Pici: we need to approve it at the next meeting I suppose
[18:53] <tsimpson> Pici: we are voting that it needs changing
[18:53] <Pici> +1
[18:53] <IdleOne> hehe
[18:53] <Pici> fine bot, don't answer me.
[18:53] <topyli> i wonder if that works :)
[18:53] <Pici> Doesn't matter.
[18:53] <jussi> [endvote]
[18:53] <ikonia> as long as you review it, I'm happy
[18:54] <Pici> 13:53:29 <?MootBot> You have already voted on this topic.
[18:54] <IdleOne> but you don't have quorum now according to the vote
[18:54] <jussi> #endvote
[18:54] <jussi> bots...
[18:54] <tonyyarusso> hehe
[18:54]  * topyli prods mooty-bot
[18:54] <tonyyarusso> Logs overrule MootBot methinks.  :)
[18:54] <tsimpson> IdleOne: 3 is a quorum
[18:55] <IdleOne>  Count is now 2
[18:55] <jussi> [ENDVOTE]
[18:55] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
[18:55] <jussi> lol
[18:55] <IdleOne> but yeah +1 tonyyarusso
[18:55] <tonyyarusso> Moveth on time?
[18:55] <jussi> Im going to reword my proposal
[18:55] <jussi> [topic] Creation of a #ubuntu-ops-backstage channel.
[18:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Creation of a #ubuntu-ops-backstage channel.
[18:56] <Pici> In the future, I don't think we need to vote on writing up a propsal, as anyone is free to write up a proposal for us.
[18:56] <tonyyarusso> Great, now IRC has a secret snogging area.
[18:56] <ikonia> I think we missed a topic
[18:57] <IdleOne> I don't like the name of that channel
[18:57] <tonyyarusso> yep
[18:57] <jussi> I would like to propose we create a channel for backstage co-ordination. This would be open to all the people in -ops currently, and would be logged by a CC only logbot.
[18:57] <topyli> oh yeah
[18:57] <Pici> Indeed we did.
[18:57] <jussi> name isnt important right now
[18:57] <tonyyarusso> We can come back to it - mootbot is already confused enough ;)
[18:57] <Pici> You skipped ikonia's other topic.
[18:57] <jussi> ikonia: My apologies!!
[18:57] <ikonia> no problem
[18:57] <ikonia> we can go back to it
[18:57] <Pici> And we only have 3 minutes left.
[18:57] <ikonia> carry on
[18:57] <ikonia> save it for later
[18:57] <jussi> ok, this hsouldnt take too long
[18:57] <tonyyarusso> co-ordination of what jussi?
[18:58] <tonyyarusso> (Yay discussions we've had like 8 times!  :P)
[18:59] <jussi> tonyyarusso: its a place where we can discus how to deal with people in real time, with more than one person. ie. what goes on in PM atm, but with more opinions present
[19:00] <tonyyarusso> bother, when you put it sensibly like that I might actually agree with you.
[19:00] <jussi> :)
[19:00] <IdleOne> so, no non-op users would be allowed in?
[19:01] <jussi> no
[19:01] <jussi> oh
[19:01] <jussi> yes
[19:01] <jussi> (I missed the "no" :D
[19:01] <Pici> what
[19:01] <IdleOne> sorry I made that not clear. reread it myself a couple times
[19:01] <tonyyarusso> If we did, I'd propose a channel name of #ubuntu-ops-discuss or similar, rather than -backstage, to remind us (and others) that it's for that purpose, not secret conniving whatnot.
[19:01] <jussi> Invite only for those with +v in -ops
[19:01] <jussi> tonyyarusso: yes, I agree
[19:02] <IdleOne> all the conniving should be done in PM :P
[19:02] <jussi> Does anyone have opinions on this? good? bad? indifferent?
[19:03] <IdleOne> I like the idea.
[19:03] <tonyyarusso> Mostly indifferent for me.  (I haven't done much of the situations that involve PMing lately.)
[19:03] <Pici> I'm getting the itching feeling that people are going to calling us out for having a secret meeting place and that the op is just one big clique etc.
[19:03] <IdleOne> provided the logs are not public but available to the ops and the IRCC, CC
[19:04] <Pici> And thats where we go to make fun of users.  Which will happen, like it or not.
[19:04] <jussi> Pici: However, wth the CC to point to for complaints like that.
[19:04] <Pici> jussi: Who is going to complain?
[19:04] <topyli> well nalioth had a good logging proposal in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2010-November/001148.html
[19:04] <tonyyarusso> Meh, we make fun of each other WAY more than users :)
[19:05] <jussi> topyli: +1
[19:05] <topyli> tonyyarusso: and we prefer to use a publicly logged channel for that anyway!
[19:05] <tonyyarusso> indeed!
[19:05] <Pici> topyli: That appears to be Hobbsee, not nalioth.
[19:06] <jussi> Shall we vote then?
[19:06] <topyli> yeah, way to look at what i'm linking to
[19:06] <IdleOne> I still would like the logs available to ops
[19:06] <IdleOne> not just the CC
[19:06] <ikonia> I think this needs to go back to the list
[19:06] <jussi> IdleOne: I think we can sort that.
[19:06] <topyli> IdleOne: you're free to log any channels you're in :)
[19:06] <ikonia> I think you need more input to do this
[19:06] <IdleOne> topyli: what about when my client is offline?
[19:06] <Pici> ikonia: I'm inclined to agree with that.
[19:06] <jussi> ikonia: we had a fair discussion on the list already
[19:07] <ikonia> jussi: I don't think we did
[19:07] <topyli> oh yeah, there are clients like that. i don't mind having that, yeah
[19:07] <ikonia> jussi: there was a short burst and it went quiet
[19:07] <ikonia> jussi: I think you need to say, I am going to do this, not "what do you think"
[19:07] <IdleOne> topyli: there are still a few ops who go offline :)
[19:07] <tonyyarusso> IdleOne: Client....offline?
[19:07] <tonyyarusso> :P
[19:07] <Pici> We had a discussion about your whole #ubuntu-ops-international-collab channel, not one for just this idea.
[19:08] <tsimpson> ikonia: but he wasn't saying that he was going to do that, rather discussing if it should be done
[19:08] <Pici> Also, I think we need to make it clear that some discussions still belong in -ops. I don't like the idea of everything happening behind closed doors.
[19:08] <ikonia> tsimpson: but you are now about to vote on it
[19:09] <IdleOne> it should be more of a help channel for ops. maybe use #ubuntu-irc-helpers
[19:09] <tsimpson> ikonia: exactly, so we haven't yet decided
[19:09] <jussi> Right, seems we should take this to the list.
[19:09] <ikonia> I don't think there is enough input of this meeting to agree to do it
[19:09] <jussi> [agreed] Take this proposal to the list
[19:09] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Take this proposal to the list
[19:09] <Pici> yay for vaugeness again
[19:10] <jussi> [topic] Ubuntu IRC Council not responsible for all core channels
[19:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu IRC Council not responsible for all core channels
[19:10] <jussi> ikonia: you're turn
[19:10] <Pici> How long is this meeting supposed to run?
[19:10] <Pici> We're already 1:10 in.
[19:10] <IdleOne> wait
[19:10] <IdleOne> need less vague
[19:10] <ikonia> jussi: next meeting I think, ot of time
[19:10] <ikonia> out
[19:10] <jussi> Im fine to stick around
[19:10] <ikonia> is that allowed ? and how are the others fixed ?
[19:10] <jussi> but If others arent, no issues
[19:11] <topyli> i have a few minutes in me still if needed
[19:11] <jussi> topyli: tsimpson Pici?
[19:11] <Pici> jussi: I can stick around too.
[19:11] <tsimpson> well, I'm a bit ill, so I'd rather not stay too long
[19:12] <jussi> Ok, lets leave it for next time.
[19:12] <ikonia> tsimpson: it can wait, the world won't end
[19:12] <Pici> Hopefully.
[19:12] <IdleOne> nice knowing you if it does
[19:12] <jussi> If it does, then its not an issue :D
[19:12] <Pici> Yay.
[19:12] <topyli> hah
[19:12] <jussi> ok, any urgent business?
[19:13] <tonyyarusso> How to keep IRC support running smoothly during the upcoming apocalypse?
[19:13] <jussi> ha
[19:13] <jussi> £endmeeting
[19:13] <IdleOne> tonyyarusso: you're on your own
[19:13] <jussi> #endmeeting
[19:13] <IdleOne> :P
[19:13] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:13.
[19:13] <topyli> i checked the bug list, there's the ancient busy-#ubuntu issue and the other one which is still in the middle of discussion
[19:14] <IdleOne> good meeting, no name calling and no feeling like nothing got done (least for me)
[19:14] <Pici> IdleOne: I'll make a note to call people names next time, sorry.
[19:15] <IdleOne> good. I felt a little left out to be honest
[19:18] <topyli> alright, thanks everybody