[05:48] <w0jrl> hello everyone
[08:22] <AlanBell> I did a bit of a surprise interview on the Ubuntu UK podcast yesterday about accessibility in Ubuntu
[08:23] <AlanBell> as in, I was surprised by it!
[08:23] <AlanBell> the recording should be out in a few days, hope it sounds OK
[08:27] <w0jrl> @AlAnBell looking forword to it.
[08:27] <meetingology> w0jrl: Error: "AlAnBell" is not a valid command.
[08:28] <w0jrl> looking forword to it.
[08:29] <w0jrl> Are you having any luck with Unity?
[08:34] <AlanBell> no, totally broke it on my machine
[08:34] <AlanBell> I was trying to build compiz to add text cursor tracking to the zoom plugin
[08:34] <AlanBell> now I have broken unity
[08:38] <w0jrl> I'm playing with it, and the accessibility looks promising. However switching windows is a pain.
[12:53] <charlie-tca> From #ubuntu-desktop on 2011-06-21 (didrocks):
[12:53] <charlie-tca> orca seems to tell that it's happy with Qt a11y :)
[12:53] <charlie-tca> for people waiting to test: install qt and qt-at-spi from the ubuntu-desktop ppa
[12:53] <charlie-tca> then, by default, a11y isn't activated
[12:53] <charlie-tca> if you want to activate it: export QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1
[12:54] <charlie-tca> (should make some application a little bit more crashy, but it's acceptable for now)
[13:05] <AlanBell> is the meeting tonight Pendulum?
[13:06] <Pendulum> afaik, yes
[13:06] <Pendulum> will change topic and send e-mail to the list when I am a little more awake
[18:25]  * AlanBell tickles Pendulum
[18:32]  * Pendulum updates agenda
[18:32] <Pendulum> or at least I will if I can figure out what should be on it ;-)
[18:32] <Pendulum> and if I can sign into the wiki
[18:33] <Pendulum> signing into the wiki is the bigger barrier
[18:33] <Pendulum> ah.. finally
[18:34] <Pendulum> AlanBell: are you making it to the meeting?
[18:34] <charlie-tca> signing in is hard now, but the pages are working
[18:36] <AlanBell> Pendulum: yup
[18:38] <Pendulum> can someone look at the agenda and let me know if it looks good? (and feel free to add/edit!)
[18:41] <AlanBell> I think there may be some interesting new stuff for testing that we should publicise
[18:41] <AlanBell> like some Qt stuff, and any developments in ubiquity
[18:42] <Pendulum> maco: will you be around for meeting?
[18:42] <Pendulum> (just becaue I know maco's done a lot of the Ubiquity stuff)
[18:42] <charlie-tca> It is pretty hard for normal users to test that stuff, actually
[18:42] <maco> when?
[18:43] <AlanBell> just over 3 hours from now
[18:43] <maco> Cheri703 actually has some ubiquity patches she should send me ;-)
[18:43] <maco> oh oh
[18:43] <maco> i have commit access to ubiquity now!
[18:43] <Cheri703> yes, yes I do
[18:43]  * Cheri703 goes to do that
[18:43] <maco> Pendulum: yes i'll be around
[18:43] <maco> Cheri703: bzr diff    <-- generates a patch
[18:44]  * Cheri703 will just email you the files
[18:44] <maco> the Kubuntu Ubiquity is still too broken to get to the part where i try to make it setup kaccessible on new installs
[18:44] <maco> by which i mean:  i fixed one crash!   but there wasn't just one...
[18:45] <Pendulum> urgh... dear gmail send my e-mail please :(
[18:49] <Cheri703> maco: sent
[18:51] <Cheri703> I will try to make it for the meeting, at 3 I'm going off to teach teenage girls how to do some outdoor cooking and start fires without matches...
[18:51] <Cheri703> but I don't know when I'll be done. I'll be taking my netbook, and can tether with my phone, so I'll try to hop on
[18:52] <maco> Cheri703: firesteel + tinder? or charpaper + sticks?
[18:52] <Cheri703> flint & steel (with char cloth), steel wool & batteries, and possibly one or two others, we'll see
[18:53] <Cheri703> and we're cooking sloppy joes in the dutch oven, corn over the grill, and doing baked apples in a fire
[18:55] <maco> cool
[18:56] <maco> im taking a firesteel & tinder to Pennsic. ive heard coring a turnip and stuffing the middle with herbs and oil, then plugging the hole with a clove of garlic, wrap in foil, and throw on fire for 1-2 hours = yummy
[18:56] <Cheri703> yeah, every year church has "girls camp" and I went when I was younger, and so I help teach some of the stuff. most of it they can do there, but for some reason they chose a facility that will not let them make their own fires or cook their own food -_- that was always a big/fun part when i went
[18:56] <Cheri703> nice
[20:15] <paul_h> hi, could someone point me at the specific blueprint mentioned in the agenda for this evening's meeting?
[20:16] <Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team
[20:17] <Pendulum> sorry, meant to put that in the agenda, but somehow didn't manage to do it
[20:18] <paul_h> Pendulum: thanks. btw the date is wrong on the agenda page too
[20:18] <Pendulum> ta
[20:18] <Pendulum> did my e-mail make it to the list?
[20:19] <Pendulum> (like an hour ago or so was when I tried to send it)
[20:20] <AlanBell> don't think so
[20:20] <AlanBell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/date.html#start nope
[20:20] <paul_h> not sure, need to resubscribe to it. my email address has changed
[20:21]  * Pendulum resends
[20:21] <paul_h> as for the archives. I think there's quite a long delay between messages sent appearing on there
[20:22] <Pendulum> argh, so annoyed with the wiki issues like having to resign in every time I want to do anything
[20:22] <paul_h> Pendulum: that email worked
[20:23] <AlanBell> no delay on the archives https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/005290.html
[20:24] <Pendulum> now I just have to not hurt myself between now and the end of the meeting :)
[20:24] <Pendulum> despite my current wish to part my head from the rest of my body
[20:27] <paul_h> will TheMuso be at the meeting do we know? didn't see a response to my meeting time suggestion from him
[20:28] <Pendulum> and I have no idea
[20:28] <Pendulum> bah
[20:28] <Pendulum> paul_h: I have no idea, unfortunately. I hope so!
[20:35] <paul_h> on the blueprint it says approved by Kate Stewart, who is she?
[20:35] <maco> ubuntu's RElease Manager
[20:36] <maco> her approving them is how we got a chart on http://status.ubuntu.com
[20:37] <paul_h> wow never seen that site before
[20:38] <maco> it's new
[20:38] <maco> the charts used to go to the wiki, but the wiki is a big pile of fall-over-and-die, so now there's a not-crashing website for it
[20:39] <paul_h> yeah I was having fun with the wiki the other day. was trying to see if I could edit the meeting agenda page but it just wouldn't log me in. kept getting proxy errors
[20:47] <phillw> paul_h: a little snippet of information has arrived in my inbox, from the TL of the Australian LoCo regarding Wiki.... "The wiki is in a state of upgrade, they appear to have load issues on the login side of things but it's definitely still being looked at. It seems to work fine sometimes and other times be a bit slow. I've noticed some 502 proxy errors when logging in. Fortunately the person responsible for the upgrades is in my LoCo so
[20:51] <charlie-tca> If you get a 502, try hitting F5 instead of anything else. Most times that will let it work
[20:52] <paul_h> didn't want to play ball at all on Monday afternoon but seems okay now. glad it wasn't something my end
[20:54] <AlanBell> phillw: yeah, the person doing the upgrade was bradm
[21:02] <Pendulum> paul_h: I think that's when people were having the most problems
[21:02] <Pendulum> okay
[21:02] <Pendulum> are y'all ready?
[21:02] <phillw> 21:00 UTC?
[21:02] <Pendulum> argh
[21:03] <Pendulum> I just failed timezones didn't I
[21:03] <paul_h> ready?
[21:03] <paul_h> another hour to go...
[21:03]  * phillw been there got the 'T'-Sirt :P I was an hour late for a classroom session, and I was te one giving it :P
[21:04] <Pendulum> I guess this means I have more time for chocolate :)
[21:04] <paul_h> always do a `date -u` before you decide it's time for a meting at x UTC :)
[21:08] <paul_h> the blueprint mentions ubuntu classroom.... what is that exactly?
[21:10] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
[21:10] <AlanBell> IRC based training sessions
[21:12] <paul_h> AlanBell: ta (Paul opens yet another browser tab...)
[21:16] <paul_h> luckily Orca is currently working quite nicely on the ubuntu wiki site
[21:20] <glen1> Hi
[21:29] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yeah I will be here, been a little swamped.
[21:30] <paul_h> TheMuso: good good :) good morning!
[21:56] <charlie-tca> where is the meeting?
[21:56] <paul_h> about to start...
[21:57] <Pendulum> 3 min according to my clock
[21:57] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: here
[21:59]  * charlie-tca will stick, around then
[22:00] <paul_h> 21:00 UTC
[22:01] <Pendulum> right
[22:01] <Pendulum> #startmeeting
[22:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 22 21:01:30 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
[22:01] <meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
[22:01] <AlanBell> o/
[22:02] <Pendulum> kay, welcome to the meeting those of you who are here for it!
[22:02] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[22:03] <paul_h> hey all
[22:03]  * charlie-tca waves
[22:04] <Pendulum> I took the liberty earlier of putting up an adgenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
[22:05] <TheMuso> Thanks, as the one who suggested the meeting, I probably should have done more, but have been swamped.
[22:05] <Pendulum> TheMuso: s'ok. I probably should have been on top of suggesting meetings ;-)
[22:05] <TheMuso> Pendulum: But you had more important things to deal with.
[22:06] <paul_h> the agenda suggests we start with the blueprint?
[22:06] <Pendulum> anyway, we can all have our own personal guilt complexes, but the meeting is happening
[22:06] <Pendulum> #topic Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS
[22:06] <meetingology> TOPIC: Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS
[22:06] <Pendulum> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team
[22:06] <TheMuso> Ok, the document has not really been started yet, probably won't get to that till post feature freeze.
[22:06] <TheMuso> I.e the a11y architecture document.
[22:07] <Pendulum> TheMuso: makes sense. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help with that
[22:07] <TheMuso> Ok thanks.
[22:08] <TheMuso> Re java-atk-wrapper, its somewhat of a higher priority, and am working to get it in the archive, so that at-spi1 can be properly demoted from main, as openjdk still depends on at-spi.
[22:08] <Pendulum> *nods*
[22:09] <TheMuso> As for dasher, well not looked at it at all.
[22:10] <Pendulum> okay
[22:10] <paul_h> is the Java ATK wrapper still being developed?
[22:10] <TheMuso> paul_h: Good question. There doesn't seem to have been much upstrea mactivity, and it is in the process of changing maintainers. I emailed various people involved with it a week ago about a license questino, and have not heard anything back yet.
[22:10] <TheMuso> However, it is needed.
[22:10] <TheMuso> For openjdk.
[22:11] <TheMuso> Openjdk currently uses java-access-bridge with is deprecated.
[22:12] <paul_h> can openjdk use the atk wrapper?
[22:13] <TheMuso> I don't think openjdk uses it as such, it just makes sure its available for any swing etc apps.
[22:13] <TheMuso> But it may actually use it, I haven't looked into it much, all I know is that its needed.
[22:13] <paul_h> well I can help test any package you create
[22:15] <Pendulum> AlanBell: have you looked into the Compiz Enhanzed zoom stuff yet?
[22:15] <TheMuso> paul_h: I don't think its a matter of testing, once its in, its in, and its needed either way. :)
[22:15] <AlanBell> Pendulum: I have a bit
[22:16] <Pendulum> anything interesting we should know now or is it just mostly in progress?
[22:16] <paul_h> TheMuso: in as in on the CD? or available in a repository?
[22:16] <AlanBell> I spoke to smspillaz about it and got started setting up a compiz development environmnet
[22:16] <TheMuso> paul_h: In main.
[22:16] <AlanBell> it is a bit of a "patches welcome" state
[22:17] <AlanBell> so I will try and get it done
[22:17] <AlanBell> I know how the orca/gnome magnifier does text cursor tracking
[22:18] <AlanBell> just the compiz plugin is in C++ rather than python
[22:18] <AlanBell> needs to be done without creating a hard dependency on at-spi2 I think
[22:19] <AlanBell> and installing the compiz development stuff broke my unity
[22:19] <TheMuso> AlanBell: IMO a dependency on at-spi2 will be a must unless we want to kep updating the plugin with the dbus API, as the dbus API between at-spi2 pieces is in flux atm.
[22:19] <paul_h> can I ask where we are with regards to the accessibility of Unity - both 2D and 3D?
[22:20] <TheMuso> The Qt at-spi plugin authors are finding this out first hand.
[22:20] <TheMuso> paul_h: That will be covered in the development topic.
[22:20] <paul_h> okay - I thought we'd done with the compis - sorry
[22:21] <AlanBell> TheMuso: yeah, a dependency to actually do text tracking is fine, but the zoom plugin needs to work as-is without it. If that makes sense
[22:21] <TheMuso> AlanBell: yes it does, but I am not sure how we will manage that without a build time dep, unless we want to keep updating to the new DBUS changes for at-spi2 as above.
[22:22] <TheMuso> The good thing is even with a dep on libatspi2, we could make the text tracking interface configurable, so that the plugin can still work even with a dep on libatspi2.
[22:22] <TheMuso> Libatspi2 does speak via dbus after all, its just that its kept up to date with the dbus API changes.
[22:23] <Pendulum> Just quickly I think before we wrap up the blueprint stuff, charlie-tca and I did an accessibility Q&A last week in Ubuntu Classroom. I'm also going to start asking soon for volunteers to teach accessibility classes. It'd be great if we could get something into developer week as well as open week and user days (which we've done before)
[22:23] <TheMuso> I wouldn't mind if the timezone was more agreeable.
[22:24] <Pendulum> TheMuso: would you possibly be willing to teach a one-off class at a time that works for you? (so outside one of the weeks)
[22:24] <TheMuso> Yes, I could do that.
[22:24] <Pendulum> I know the Ubuntu Classroom Team really is happy to have classes at any time :)
[22:24] <TheMuso> Its just a matter of coming up with something.
[22:25] <Pendulum> :)
[22:25] <Pendulum> Does anyone else have anything relating to the blueprint to discuss?
[22:25] <AlanBell> "how to use accerciser" would be good
[22:26] <Pendulum> I'll take that as a no.
[22:26] <Pendulum> #topic Development Update
[22:26] <meetingology> TOPIC: Development Update
[22:26] <Pendulum> TheMuso: I think this one is pretty much all you at the moment :)
[22:27] <TheMuso> Right.
[22:27] <maco> yeah don't look at me. i have to make ubiquity stop crashing before i can make it do any useful a11y stuff
[22:27] <TheMuso> So, Qt accessibility bits are coming along. Didrocks from the Desktop team is handling Qt, the qt-at-spi bridge and the patches to Qt, as he is in contact with upstream.
[22:28] <TheMuso> The bits are now ready for testing in the Ubuntu desktop PPA for Oneiric only. I plan to hammer them today myself.
[22:28] <TheMuso> QML is on the cards for upstream, so hopefully at the end of it all, unity 2d will be accessible, however I do have my concerns that things won't be ready/stable enough in time.
[22:29] <Pendulum> TheMuso: is there any discussion happening within the desktop team about what would/should happen if it's not ready?
[22:29] <TheMuso> As for Unity 3D, well not much a11y is happening on that, at least in terms of the DX team. I am currently hacking on quicklist a11y and making some good progress. I feel that unless I work on unity 3D, it won't be looked at much this cycle, which sucks because I already have a pike of work on the Ubiquity a11y spec, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity.
[22:29] <TheMuso> Pendulum: Not that I know of, that discussion may very likely happen next week in Dublin.
[22:29] <TheMuso> In fact I want it to happen.
[22:29] <TheMuso> So I will make it a priority that it gets talked about.
[22:30] <Pendulum> :)
[22:30] <maco> TheMuso: i got commit access to ubiquity, so i guess you can push some ubiquity stuff my way if you need. though, tell me first (don't pull an apachelogger...assigned all kde-related ubiquity bugs to me without asking)
[22:30] <AlanBell> TheMuso: you are over in Dublin?
[22:30] <TheMuso> AlanBell: I will be next week for the rally, yes.
[22:30] <TheMuso> maco: Thanks, but I am currently talkto design about UI stuff relating to how we present/activate accessibility profiles at the first installer screen.
[22:31] <maco> oh, so over-my-head stuff
[22:31] <TheMuso> Once thats sorted, coding will begin in urnist, I OHPEby tomorrow, if not early next week.
[22:31] <TheMuso> gah typing
[22:33] <AlanBell> so that would fix the problem on boot where you have to press a key when you see the magic symbol
[22:33] <maco> AlanBell: s/when/if/
[22:33] <TheMuso> AlanBell: Yes.
[22:34] <paul_h> that's what I wonna hear... :)
[22:34] <TheMuso> Thats pretty much it from me at this point.
[22:35] <Pendulum> maco: do you have anything to add on any of your devel work?
[22:35] <paul_h> TheMuso: is there anyway I can have some input on how activating a11y on boot might work?
[22:35] <TheMuso> paul_h: What do you have in mind? I am currently talking to our design team about it at the moment.
[22:35] <maco> i have patches from Cheri703 to go through for adding accessible names to Ubiquity GTK and then i intend to knock out the variable name loop
[22:36] <maco> for Ubiquity KDE,  it has to run before i can make it accessible
[22:36] <paul_h> well, potential hotkeys for activating a11y, that kind of thing
[22:36] <TheMuso> paul_h: Right, again, what do you have ni mind? Do you mind emailing me your thoughts?
[22:37] <TheMuso> So we don't clog up the meeting?
[22:37] <TheMuso> paul_h: Or we could talk about it after the meeting.
[22:37] <paul_h> TheMuso: sure, I'll be around after
[22:39] <Pendulum> okay, are we all set on Development then?
[22:39] <TheMuso> Yep.
[22:39] <Pendulum> #topic Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint
[22:39] <meetingology> TOPIC: Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint
[22:40] <Pendulum> I just wanted to bring these things up because we've got a lot more on blueprints this cycle that are development related than community related
[22:40] <Pendulum> also, some of these things I've been asked about from other teams
[22:40] <Pendulum> so to start off
[22:40] <Pendulum> Personas
[22:40] <Pendulum> AlanBell: any status update on the remaining ones?
[22:41] <AlanBell> not a lot of progress recently to be honest
[22:41] <AlanBell> so there is Simon who is partially sighted that is in progress
[22:42] <AlanBell> there is a deaf user, and one with cognitive issues
[22:43] <AlanBell> need to do a few collaborative sessions to get them hammered out and published
[22:44] <Pendulum> ok
[22:44] <Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to send an e-mail to the list maybe to schedule something so we can do maybe a day of personas 'hacking' to get them done?
[22:45] <AlanBell> good idea, I will do that
[22:45] <Pendulum> I'm thinking if we could get 3-5 people to just sit for a day or two and work on them they could get done
[22:45] <Pendulum> and they are something joanie of Gnome A11y has asked me about
[22:45] <AlanBell> yeah, I know joanie liked the first two
[22:49] <Pendulum> okay
[22:49] <Pendulum> guess that's it on personas
[22:49] <Pendulum> Outreach
[22:49] <Pendulum> we're already going to do the Ubuntu Classroom things
[22:49] <Pendulum> are there other outreach things that we'd like to do this cycle?
[22:50] <paul_h> fairly trivial but what about a twitter feed and maybe a facebook page etc?
[22:52] <AlanBell> I did a podcast interview
[22:52] <Pendulum> are other people interested in twitter or facebook pages?
[22:53] <paul_h> I just noticed that some of the other projects mention them when I was looking at the wiki
[22:53] <AlanBell> I am kind of interested in the facebook thing, I know the Ubuntu one is massively popular
[22:53] <AlanBell> not quite sure what we would do with a twitter feed as a team
[22:53] <paul_h> perhaps just post links to blog posts etc
[22:54] <Pendulum> I do try to tweet at minimum meetings and stuff and random a11y related stuff I come across
[22:54] <charlie-tca> We could just feed twitter posts to Ubuntu_OS, which seems to be the official Ubuntu account
[22:54] <Pendulum> anyone can feel free to follow me. I'm colona13 on twitter :)
[22:54] <AlanBell> ooh, I am trying to get planet-a11y.net back up and running
[22:55] <charlie-tca> I'm charlietca1 on twitter and identi.ca
[22:55] <paul_h> I think it's a good way of spreading the word among people not already entrenched in ubuntu
[22:55] <Pendulum> also, we have our blog
[22:55] <AlanBell> it has been taken down for months and months because they had problems keeping it accessible because the diverse feeds it was aggregating broke it
[22:55] <Pendulum> which we can post to
[22:55] <TheMuso> I am themuso82 on twitter.
[22:56] <AlanBell> and I am alanbell_libsol
[22:57] <paul_h> we still have one more topic to cover
[22:57] <Pendulum> yeah
[22:57] <Pendulum> do we want to talk about it breifly or put it off?
[22:57] <Pendulum> (I really have to go at the 60 minute mark)
[22:57] <paul_h> guess it depends on whether or not anyone's got anything much to say on it
[22:58] <TheMuso> I don't think so, the only docs we are really wanting to do this cycle are the architecture doc, which has been covered.
[22:58] <TheMuso> And once complete, there will be docs for ubiquity a11y bits that are being added.
[22:58] <TheMuso> That will need to be written.
[22:58] <charlie-tca> carry it forward to the next meeting
[22:58] <TheMuso> I'll let everyone know when that is ready to be written.
[22:58] <TheMuso> Sounds good.
[22:58] <charlie-tca> and try to get j1mc to the meeting, since he does write docs
[22:59] <AlanBell> there is this that I was working on http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure
[22:59] <AlanBell> should become a blog post when done I think
[23:00] <TheMuso> Cool.
[23:00] <TheMuso> charlie-tca: Good suggestino.
[23:01] <TheMuso> Ok I think we are done here.
[23:01] <Pendulum> okay great!
[23:01] <Pendulum> Thanks everyone for coming!
[23:01] <Pendulum> #endmeeting
[23:01] <TheMuso> Thanks folks.
[23:01] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 22 22:01:25 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
[23:01] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-06-22-21.01.moin.txt
[23:01] <AlanBell> thanks Pendulum
[23:01]  * TheMuso -> breakfast.
[23:01]  * Pendulum --> dinner
[23:01]  * AlanBell -> bed
[23:01] <TheMuso> paul_h: Give me a few minutes, and we can talk about accessibility profile activation.
[23:01] <AlanBell> timezones are great
[23:02] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: thanks for chairing
[23:02] <paul_h> TheMuso: sure
[23:07] <TheMuso> paul_h: Ok, so what do you have in mind?
[23:07] <paul_h> well, we're talking about the screen where users can pick the language and then whether to try or install?
[23:09] <TheMuso> Right.
[23:10] <paul_h> TheMuso: so, I's want some indication of when this screen had appeared, followed by an easy way to then activate Orca...
[23:12] <TheMuso> paul_h: Right. The plan at this point is to play a sound when the first installer screen appears. At that point, you will use a keyboard shortcut to launch the profile you want. Unfortunately the user will have to know ahead of time what the keyboard shortcut is. However, I may be able to mitigate that somewhat.
[23:13] <paul_h> perhaps if the user does nothing for a certain amount of time then speech could be activated? as in with macs?
[23:14] <maco> cjwatson said he would not be opposed to a solution like that
[23:14] <TheMuso> paul_h: That was discussed, however that doesn't solve the language issue.
[23:14] <maco> did the casper-time language asker go away?
[23:15] <TheMuso> maco: No.
[23:15] <paul_h> would there be any visual indication of accessibility choices? a "universal access options" button for example
[23:15] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yes, there will be.
[23:15] <TheMuso> In the form of an indicator.
[23:15] <TheMuso> Which will be accessible from the keyboard.
[23:15] <charlie-tca> There should be both audio and visual indicators, so any user can know what is happening.
[23:16] <paul_h> as far as language goes, what can we do? orca has no support for detecting languages. it starts up in English whatever the locale
[23:17] <TheMuso> The issue is not even to do with Orca, its how do we tell the user about the profiles in a language that they understand that hasn't been selected yet.
[23:19] <maco> TheMuso: read off language names in their own language, and user mashes button when they hear their language said, then start up in that?
[23:19] <paul_h> the only way around that I see is to put the user immediately on a language selection list that speaks each language as the user arrows up and down it. but we don't even have synthesiser language support  for every language ubuntu offers
[23:19] <maco> english español francais zhong-guo nihongo
[23:19] <TheMuso> paul_h: Right, and doing that would require another screen, i.e we couldn't really do that with the existing screen.
[23:20] <TheMuso> maco: I am not sure how useful that would end up being. I know I wouldn't want to have to do that.
[23:20] <TheMuso> Its easier to know ahead of time how to load the profile.
[23:22] <paul_h> so the language issue aside (not sure what we can really do there for now), are we thinking a hotkey for each a11y profile, or a hotkey to bring up some kind of universal access screen?
[23:23] <TheMuso> A hotkey for the first 4 profiles, i.e the high contrast, magnification, blindness and braille profiles.
[23:24] <TheMuso> And maybe a hotkey for the minor motor difficulties profile, but with sticky keys enabled.
[23:24] <TheMuso> The last profile will likely need a dwell click gesture.
[23:26] <paul_h> do we need separate blindness and braille profiles? surely if the user is blind and has a braille display connected they'd want it to work?
[23:26] <TheMuso> Thats a good point actually.
[23:27] <TheMuso> One other thing I will be working on for this cycle and as a part of this blueprint, is revamping the way we configure non-USB Braille displays.,
[23:27] <TheMuso> i.e bluetooth/serial.
[23:27] <paul_h> doesn't hurt to have brltty running and orca set to use braille if there's no braille display connected
[23:28] <TheMuso> Right, brltty will be running if udev detects a display. We can check for that, and set Orca up to use it... even without the need to configure a profile. :)
[23:29] <TheMuso> paul_h: You gave me a wonderful idea.
[23:29] <TheMuso> All I need now, is a USB display to test with. :)
[23:29] <TheMuso> But thats for post alpha 2 I think.
[23:30] <paul_h> well I have a usb braille display if I can help test anything
[23:30] <paul_h> I want to get more involved
[23:31] <TheMuso> Cool.
[23:31] <TheMuso> I am seriously thinking about picking one up.
[23:31] <TheMuso> And before the end of the financial year, so I can get it into my books and try and get a tax deduction on it.
[23:32] <paul_h> I'd like a bluetooth one, could use it with my iPhone then
[23:32] <maco> iphones can do brltty?
[23:33] <paul_h> voiceover can use bluetooth braille displays, yeah
[23:33] <maco> i knew they were a11y awesome sauce, but i thought they just TALKED
[23:33] <TheMuso> paul_h: So to be clear, my idea is this. If you have a USB display, and its connected at live CD boot, come installer time, your display will be found, BrlTTY will be running, and Orca will be started up for you configured to use Braille, and away you go, without the need to activate anything.
[23:34] <paul_h> yes, having a connected braille display is a good tip off that you'll want the blindness profile
[23:34] <TheMuso> Yep.
[23:34] <TheMuso> And then we only offer the braille choice for those who don't have a USB display.
[23:34] <paul_h> and if you don't, then you wait for an audible prompt and do a key combo to start Orca
[23:35] <TheMuso> Not sure we will easily be able to handle the bluetooth usecsae yet, but thast something I want to look at in the long term.
[23:35] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yep.
[23:35] <JanC> TheMuso: aren't most braille displays using the generic USB-to-serial USBID ?
[23:35] <TheMuso> JanC: No.
[23:35] <JanC> I that was an issue in the past
[23:35] <JanC> I remember that *
[23:36] <TheMuso> Yes it was, I am just trying to remember what displays that was with. I will have to look it up.
[23:36] <JanC> nice if the manufacturers got their own USB IDs, that helps a lot!
[23:37] <TheMuso> Yep.
[23:37] <TheMuso> I think sed display manufacturers cut corners by using a USB to serial chip internally.
[23:37] <TheMuso> And using Windows drivers, of course thats not an issue. :S
[23:37] <JanC> yes, GPS receivers had the same problem
[23:38] <JanC> that's how I learned about it first actually
[23:38] <paul_h> can we use udev to detect braille displays on an installed system, so the user never has to edit the /etc/default/brltty file?
[23:38] <JanC> GPS receivers, braille displays and industrial metering devices all using the same USB ID...
[23:39] <TheMuso> JanC: Yeah thats poor form I agree.
[23:39] <JanC> paul_h: that should be possible if they use their own USB ID
[23:39] <TheMuso> paul_h: Thats how it should work now/
[23:40] <paul_h> my pacmate 20 isn't activated till I edit the brltty file...
[23:41] <JanC> paul_h: what is it shown as in 'lsusb' ?
[23:43] <paul_h> shows up as Freedom Scientific (the vendor)
[23:43] <JanC> so it has its own ID
[23:44] <TheMuso> Could you post the vendor and product IDs?
[23:44] <JanC> and things could be better
[23:44] <TheMuso> I need to drag brltty into the new world order of running as a user, at least for use with Orca.
[23:46] <TheMuso> paul_h: Could you post the entire line from lsusb where your FS display is mentioned?
[23:47] <paul_h> says ID 0f4e:0111 Freedom Scientific
[23:50] <TheMuso> Hrm ok, it is listed here. I will need to go through how we have brltty wired up again. :S
[23:50] <TheMuso> I really wish it ran per user only.
[23:50] <TheMuso> But it can't do that yet.
[23:52] <paul_h> TheMuso: but doesn't the /etc/default/brltty file tell brltty never to start up unless it's editted?
[23:52] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yes, but I thought we had something in place so that USB displays bypassed that if they were detected.
[23:52] <TheMuso> Which is why I need to check things again.
[23:54] <TheMuso> brb


[00:18] <eviljames> Anyone alive, preferrably someone who knows lvm / raid / ubuntu and what things I should be hunting down if my initramfs is not mounting my root... ?
[10:37] <theotix> hello worlds
[13:17] <damo22> anyone here?
[13:18] <ailo> damo22: What's up?
[13:19] <damo22> wondering if anyone has a digidesign mbox2
[13:20] <ailo> No, and I was never sure if it's supported or not.
[13:21] <damo22> well, soon it will be .. i just submitted a working patch to alsa
[13:21] <ailo> Ok, so you want to find someone to test it?
[13:22] <damo22> i am playing some tunes through it as we speak
[13:22] <damo22> just wondering if its a popular device
[13:23] <ailo> It used to be among mac users, I thought.
[13:23] <ailo> But it's been long since I've seen one in action.
[13:24] <damo22> i think its quite good for what it is... i havent opened it up to check what brand the preamps are, but it sounds nice in playback @ 24 bit
[13:25] <damo22> i know that the mbox 1 had focusrite pres
[13:27] <ailo> Not many usb devices with full support, right? How is the generic driver? Isn't it 16 bits only?
[13:28] <damo22> i wrote support into the existing usb driver to force the mbox2 into 24 bit mode and actually use it
[13:29] <damo22> you can select 44.1k or 48kHz mode at 24bit
[13:30] <damo22> and it captures at 24 bit too :) duplex works
[13:30] <ailo> No 96kHz? 16 bit only?
[13:30] <damo22> the device doesnt support 96k
[13:30] <ailo> ok
[13:30] <damo22> i believe its usb 1.1
[13:31] <damo22> in my opinion bit depth is more important than 96k sample rate
[13:31] <ailo> It is
[13:32] <ailo> I've never used 96kHz for recording myself
[13:32] <damo22> i record at 44.1, makes mastering for cds easier, less hassle
[13:33] <damo22> but i record in 24 bits
[13:33] <ailo> Well, I'm sure 48kHz is best, but I imagine for some processing, even 96kHz can be better.
[13:33] <damo22> 88.2 is probably better than 96k for audio cd purposes
[13:34] <damo22> because resampling is trivial, just skip every second sample
[13:34] <damo22> ;)
[13:34] <ailo> It makes most difference in the high frequencies of course
[13:35] <ailo> But, most of the time, it doesn't make much of a difference, I think.
[13:35] <damo22> yeah, you cant reproduce anything higher than 22.05 on an audio cd
[13:36] <damo22> but then, my hearing only goes up to 16k or so
[13:36] <ailo> Well, a 10kHz wave is only represented by 4 samples, which is not very much
[13:37] <ailo> And above that, there usually isn't much, but that would depend on what is being recorded.
[13:37] <damo22> true
[14:04] <mbeierl> Anyone with linux sound/studio experience ever look into a software interface to replicate an aviom? http://www.aviom.com/Aviom-Products-1/Mixers-1/A-16II-Personal-Mixer
[14:14] <damo22> what does that network jack do
[14:20] <damo22> some sort of audio transmission over cat5e cable i assume
[14:54] <mbeierl> sorry - just notice post.  The device itself takes the output of 16 channels of digital audio data muxed over the ethernet link - coming from a master mixing board.  The Aviom 16 does all the mixing and panning on board and presents the musician with a stereo output.  I'm wondering if anyone's gone under the hood and plugged the ethernet cable into a linux box and tried to demux the audio data right onto a hard drive for later processing or something
[15:05] <damo22> how do you know if its actually using a tcp/ip stack
[15:05] <damo22> maybe its a proprietary protocol
[15:06] <mbeierl> that's the problem - I have no idea what stack it's using
[15:06] <crysaz> try out wireshark and see if you can dump it
[15:07] <mbeierl> ah.  good point.
[15:07] <mbeierl> I don't actually own one of these - it belongs to the church where I play on the team
[15:07] <mbeierl> so I'll have to wait til my next time on the rotation to play around with it a little
[15:08] <damo22> seems like a good idea to send audio muxed over cat5
[15:08] <mbeierl> it is becoming very popular
[15:08] <mbeierl> especially for the whole in-ear-monitor space
[15:09] <damo22> but only for those who have a studio with lots of channels
[15:09] <mbeierl> single cat-5 can easily carry the 16 channels and then a small device at the musician provides the ability to create a personal mix
[15:10] <damo22> if it was tcp/ip you could use a simple switch to share the data
[15:10] <mbeierl> the devices do daisy-chain and can be added to without apparent limit
[15:12] <damo22> that is the feature of any network
[15:12] <damo22> could be rs485 or something or 422 who knows
[15:18] <damo22> but what is so good about having a 16 channel mixer at the end of a chain
[15:19] <damo22> i would have thought the mix should be preset at the control room
[15:20] <damo22> where the monitors are
[15:22] <damo22> i can see how it would benefit to have long runs from the control room to the stage made of cat5, then some sort of breakout box with separate preamps to the mics on stage
[15:23] <damo22> to shorten the analogue signal path
[15:25] <damo22> you still need to pick up vibrations from the air, so mics arent gonna go out of fashion
[15:25] <damo22> and thus you need pres
[15:26] <damo22> this cat5 stuff is just to cut the cost of wiring long paths to the control room right? and also to shorten the analogue path
[15:43] <mbeierl> To be clear the avioms are used to control the personal monitor mix for in-ear monitors
[15:43] <holstein> mbeierl: theres just an output at each terminal right?
[15:44] <mbeierl> there is also a master mix at the control site, but as this is for live performance, the control booth folks are concentrating on the house mix
[15:44] <mbeierl> yes
[15:44] <mbeierl> at the end of the cat5 cable is a mix-down box with 16 sliders - like each musician gets his/her own copy of the mix board
[15:44] <holstein> so you dont *have* to use it with the in-ear system
[15:44] <holstein> in theory
[15:44] <mbeierl> and out of that comes a single L/R channel
[15:44] <mbeierl> correct
[15:45] <holstein> ive been in studios with that kind of rig
[15:45] <holstein> my favorite was just an analog verion
[15:45] <mbeierl> I was thinking for practice I'd like to be able to capture the raw data and do a mix down of my own
[15:45] <holstein> losts of wiring
[15:45] <holstein> but, each 'terminal' had a little makie mixer
[15:45] <mbeierl> yep - that's the idea
[15:46] <holstein> the one that was running via cat5 was kinda cheap-ish
[15:47] <mbeierl> they're not cheap $$$ anymore :)
[15:47] <mbeierl> and it's good, solid construction too
[15:47] <holstein> up at systems2 in NY
[15:47] <holstein> they had it too
[15:47] <holstein> i had a hard time with it though
[15:48] <holstein> i mean, its easier for the engineer and all that
[15:48] <holstein> but, thats kinda what im paying for
[15:48] <holstein> for someone else to turn the knobs
[15:48] <holstein> i had a hard time because the mix was a bit different from the check before one of the takes
[15:48] <holstein> when a horn player was added
[15:48] <holstein> i had the harmony parts louder than the melody
[15:49] <holstein> and i couldnt really adjust it on the fly
[15:49] <holstein> and we were doing just one take of everything
[15:50] <holstein> mbeierl: you're wanting to take the output from this at church as a multichannel mix?
[15:50] <holstein> to record what you guys are doing?
[15:51] <holstein> if there is just a spare one of the brains, you could do a mix, and record it stereo
[15:51] <mbeierl> holstein: yes.
[15:51] <holstein> then you dont have to do any editing ;)
[15:51] <mbeierl> well... level sets afterwards in a mix down
[15:51] <holstein> right
[15:52] <holstein> thats a lot of wor
[15:52] <holstein> k
[15:52] <mbeierl> I already am taking the L/R stereo out and using that, but ... I'm always looking to go one further :()
[15:52] <holstein> if you get a good mix on the thing before hand
[15:52] <holstein> then you just have a ready to go board mix
[15:52] <mbeierl> ya, that's the problem - it's live
[15:52] <holstein> mbeierl: ideally
[15:52] <holstein> you would do it at the board
[15:52] <mbeierl> and I'm playing so it's hard to change my mix on the fly
[15:52] <holstein> with the inserts or whatever
[15:53] <mbeierl> that would require getting another person at the board :)
[15:53] <holstein> nah
[15:53] <holstein> just an interface that can capture it
[15:53] <mbeierl> oh, try
[15:53] <holstein> set it and forget it in theory
[15:53] <mbeierl> true
[15:53] <holstein> as long as you make sure its set at a resonable level
[15:53] <mbeierl> yep
[15:53] <holstein> that likely wont clip
[15:54] <holstein> and it shouldnt in that situation
[15:54] <holstein> where the live sound is going to be the limit
[15:54] <mbeierl> and have it dump all channels to individual audio streams on a HD of sorts?
[15:54] <mbeierl> for a mix down after?
[15:54] <holstein> thats whats going to happen if you work out the other situations
[15:54] <holstein> situation*
[15:55] <holstein> you have to capture each channel somewhere
[15:55] <holstein> im assuming via JACK to ardour
[15:55] <holstein> the end result either way is a recorded track per channel
[15:56] <holstein> for something like that, i would probably just put up a stereo mic somewhere
[15:56] <holstein> nice live sound
[15:56] <holstein> and less HD space and hassle
[15:57] <mbeierl> There again - it being a chuch service, you don't always get the best sound "through the air"
[15:58] <mbeierl> I am reasonable happy capturing my personal mixdown from the Aviom, but I was just curious if there was any known specs for that thing out there
[15:59] <holstein> i think the stereo mic mix would be preferable to a board mix
[15:59] <holstein> that you cant control afterward
[15:59] <holstein> a stereo board mix is usually pretty strange
[15:59] <holstein> really soft drums
[15:59] <holstein> the opposite of the 'room'
[16:00] <holstein> whatever needs to be amplified the most is too loud
[16:00] <holstein> you get to even that out though on your headphone mix terminal a bit
[16:01] <holstein> i would go for a multi-channel interface at the board
[16:01] <holstein> BUT, talk about adding an extra person
[16:01] <holstein> you'll have GB's of mixes stacking up
[16:01] <holstein> to mix down, backup, whatever
[16:01] <holstein> definitely the ideal scenario for fidelity
[16:02] <holstein> but, maybe not worth the extra work
[16:09] <mbeierl> The drums are mic'ed quite well and I get a nice crisp sound for them through the aviom...
[16:09] <holstein> right
[16:10] <holstein> in your headphones or whatever though
[16:10] <holstein> you'll have to compromise what you need to hear for the live recording
[16:10] <mbeierl> exactly
[16:10] <holstein> if it were me
[16:10] <mbeierl> I tap into the headphone mix and record that
[16:11] <holstein> i would not use them at all
[16:11] <holstein> but i dont use monitors really
[16:11] <holstein> i think if its a live performance, and i need a monitor, someone is playing too loud
[16:11] <mbeierl> I'm the bassist.  can't get away without them.  the sanctuary that I play in seats 1,200 people
[16:11] <holstein> me too
[16:12] <holstein> you should be able to
[16:13] <holstein> try and imagine what the monitor mixes must have been like in beethovens era ;)
[16:13] <mbeierl> he didn't use drums
[16:13] <mbeierl> :)
[16:13] <holstein> well, just becuase playing drums and music at the same time has become a problem
[16:14] <mbeierl> so if the electric and the bass do not have amps, how am I to hear them without a monitor?
[16:14] <holstein> doesnt mean we should all fight that with louder stage mixes
[16:14] <holstein> that in turn make the drummer play louder
[16:14] <mbeierl> it's not a louder stage mix - it's there's no sound on the stage
[16:14] <mbeierl> that's why I have the in-ears
[16:14] <holstein> guitar without an amp?
[16:14] <holstein> the guitar players i know
[16:14] <holstein> *electric guitar
[16:15] <mbeierl> correct - guitar without amp.  electric guitar
[16:15] <holstein> depend on the amp for most of the tone they want
[16:15] <mbeierl> yes!
[16:15] <holstein> this sounds like a mess
[16:15] <mbeierl> not anymore.  Thank-you Line 6
[16:15] <holstein> and church gigs usually are
[16:15] <mbeierl> not at all
[16:15] <mbeierl> it's very clean and crisp
[16:15] <holstein> i bet
[16:15] <holstein> totally clean
[16:15] <mbeierl> why would you want an amp?
[16:15] <holstein> no color at all
[16:15] <mbeierl> that just makes unecessary stage noise :)
[16:15] <holstein> mbeierl: ask *any* guitar player
[16:16] <holstein> mbeierl: i totally see the argument
[16:16] <mbeierl> we have several.
[16:16] <holstein> im just saying, the guy i play with
[16:16] <holstein> would never be able to do that
[16:16] <mbeierl> all of them go without amps now
[16:16] <holstein> we would mic the cabinet
[16:16] <holstein> and thats the preferred method
[16:16] <holstein> i mean, you can get electric drums too
[16:16] <holstein> and the drums wont make any sound on stage
[16:17] <holstein> and why would you not do that?
[16:17] <holstein> because the drummer prefers the tone of actual drums
[16:18] <holstein> im not saying get guitar amps
[16:18] <holstein> im just pointing out the differences in this set up with the norm
[16:18] <holstein> AND
[16:19] <holstein> guitar players are right behind drummers usually
[16:19] <holstein> with the volume before musicality
[16:20] <holstein> mbeierl: is there an extra terminal?
[16:20] <holstein> you could have one just for the recording
[16:20] <mbeierl> we've got 4 or 5 terminals
[16:20] <mbeierl> yes.  but someone would still need to ride the mix to make sure it was good
[16:20] <mbeierl> sorry  for the delays - I'm actually at work here... :)
[16:21] <holstein> mbeierl: no worries
[16:22] <mbeierl> what happens sometimes is that say, one vocalist will get louder part way through a song due to bringing the mic too close...
[16:22] <mbeierl> that gets compensated for in the house mix, but not in the personal mixes
[16:23] <holstein> hmmm
[16:24] <holstein> that will be in the interface at the board too...
[16:24] <holstein> ideally, you'd split each line then
[16:24] <holstein> pre-mixer
[16:24] <holstein> each line and mic
[16:24] <holstein> and like you said
[16:24] <holstein> have a seperate guy
[16:24] <holstein> to set that mix going to tape
[16:25] <holstein> then the live sound mixer wont effect those levels
[16:25] <holstein> one of the best sounding local venues here
[16:25] <holstein> they had great sounds in the room
[16:25] <holstein> and rather than taking a board mix
[16:26] <holstein> or hassling with multitrac
[16:26] <holstein> k
[16:26] <mbeierl> take the live room...
[16:26] <holstein> they had 2 sm81's in the room
[16:26] <holstein> and 2 dedicated channels for them
[16:26] <holstein> set and ready to go
[16:26] <holstein> if you have *any* stereo mic
[16:27] <holstein> i think that woud be worth trying at least
[16:27] <holstein> since its SO much easier all around


[00:29] <keithy_> hmm I wont to install config manager on my laptop but I dont have gcc/develper tools loaded
[00:29] <keithy_> want*
[01:29] <timClicks> am attempting bzr pull --overwrite and am receiving
[01:29] <timClicks> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(lp-64843152:///~flavour/sahana/sahanapy-trunk/.bzr/branchlock): Transport operation not possible: readonly transport
[01:29] <timClicks> is there anything I can do on my end? it looks like something to do with launchpad
[01:29] <fullermd> DDTT(tm).
[01:30] <fullermd> You're doing that in a checkout of the branch on LP, to which you don't have write access, so writing to it fails.
[01:33] <versatiletech> I'm having issues with getting my linux user permissions right for someone on the outside to bzr push bzr+ssh:// in? Can someone point me to the right direction?
[01:34] <fullermd> Well, what's wrong with 'em?
[01:35] <fullermd> They need write into the branch, and its respository.
[01:35] <versatiletech> hmm
[01:35] <mkanat> In pre_change_branch_tip, what's the right way to get the email address of the committer? By parsing new_revid, or is there some better way?
[01:36] <versatiletech> fullermd: I guess the ssh user needs to be in the same group as the bzr folder's group correct?
[01:37] <fullermd> Well, that's one way to do it.  Another would be with world permissions.  Another possibility would be stepping outside the normal *nix permission system with some sort of ACL, if your system supports that.
[01:37] <fullermd> But group is the normal solution, yes.
[01:38] <versatiletech> right now the .bzr's group is proftp
[01:38] <versatiletech> does the user's primary group need to be proftp?
[01:38] <versatiletech> or can there secondary group be proftp?
[01:38] <fullermd> No, they just need to be in it.
[01:38] <versatiletech> cool
[01:38] <versatiletech> let me try that
[01:39] <fullermd> If you're on a system with SysV filesystem semantics, you probably want g+s on some of the directories.
[01:50] <keithy_> is there a way to checkout such that you get just the files no scm behavuior
[01:50] <keithy_> i.e checkout --lightweight
[01:50] <keithy_> but more a deploy
[01:50] <fullermd> You mean like export?
[01:51] <fullermd> (of course, with no scm behavior, you can't do things like "update" either)
[03:55] <MTecknology> bzr: ERROR: KnitPackRepository('lp-64843152:///~scripters/scripting/trunk/.bzr/repository')
[03:55] <MTecknology> is not compatible with CHKInventoryRepository('lp-64843152:///~mtecknology/scripting/server-scripts/.bzr/repository')
[03:55] <MTecknology> That's odd.. any ideas?
[03:59] <fullermd> One side is a pack-0.92 or the like, the other is 2a.
[04:00] <fullermd> Specifically, yours is 2a, and you're trying to move revs from that into the ~scripters one which isn't possible.
[04:03] <MTecknology> fullermd: any way to make that work?
[04:03] <fullermd> No.  Rich-root revs aren't compatible with poor-root repos.
[04:04] <fullermd> So your choices are (a) Upgrade the far side, or (b) Redo changes in a poor repo.
[04:04] <MTecknology> fullermd: I'm trying to push to a branch that doesn't exist
[04:05] <versatiletech> assuming I do bzr remove MYCONFIGFILE.ext --keep, then bzr commit && bzr push-and-update. If someone else does a bzr pull, will their MYCONFIGGILE.ext be erased?
[04:05] <fullermd> Mmm.  The error could be coming from trying to stack, I guess.
[04:05] <fullermd> versatiletech: Yes.
[04:06] <versatiletech> ouch
[04:06] <versatiletech> any other options?
[04:06] <fullermd> Not in-bzr, no.  A file's either extant in a rev or not.
[04:09] <versatiletech> I guess what I could do is tell everyone to backup their MYCONFIGFILE.ext, then I bzr remove MYCONFIGFILE.ext --keep from the central repo. Then bzr ignore MYCONFIGFILE.ext.
[04:09] <versatiletech> are bzr ignore's local?
[04:10] <versatiletech> or if somebody bzr pull's they'll get the new ignore that was committed to the central repo?
[04:10] <fullermd> Depends on whther the ignore file is versioned.
[04:10] <versatiletech> k
[04:10] <fullermd> Which it presumably is, if you're using the 'bzr ignore' command.
[04:10] <wgrant> (by default it is)
[04:11] <versatiletech> yeah I noticed that I couldn't ignore a versioned files
[04:11] <versatiletech> file*
[04:11] <versatiletech> Warning: the following files are version controlled and match your ignore pattern:
[04:11] <versatiletech> application/config/database.php
[04:11] <versatiletech> These files will continue to be version controlled unless you 'bzr remove' them.
[04:11] <fullermd> Oh, you can put it in just fine.
[04:11] <fullermd> bzr ignore just warns because the command doesn't DO anything.
[04:12] <versatiletech> so basically it doesn't truly ignore the file unless I do bzr remove
[04:13] <versatiletech> in other words if I make a change to database.php after doing bzr ignore to it, it will still be committed since it's versioned
[04:13] <fullermd> The only thing that 'ignored' means is that 'add' won't add it when it walks across it, and 'status' won't show it as 'unknown'.
[04:13] <fullermd> It doesn't affect anything else.
[04:14] <versatiletech> ah
[04:14] <versatiletech> k I got it now
[04:27] <MTecknology> fullermd: any idea about this? http://paste.ubuntu.com/362361/
[04:27] <MTecknology> 2 servers give me that; 2 servers work correctly
[04:28] <fullermd> It means you don't have your public key setup right.
[04:28] <MTecknology> none of the root users on any server have ssh keys published to launchpad
[04:29] <MTecknology> I only want them to pull down the content - should need authentication..
[04:29] <fullermd> If they've been lp-login'd, they'll always need authentication.
[04:30] <MTecknology> I didn't think I did.. if they did how can I undo that?
[04:30] <MTecknology> there's no /root/.bzr*
[04:30] <fullermd> Going through sudo and using your original user's ~?
[04:31] <MTecknology> OOPS
[04:32] <MTecknology> fullermd: thanks :D
[04:32]  * fullermd is a cheenius   8-}
[04:33] <MTecknology> ya, you are
[06:02] <ChrisMorgan> I've got bzr-gtk installed on my Ubuntu system but Nautilus integration isn't happening; the emblems are available but overlaying of files isn't happening.
[06:02] <ChrisMorgan> Any idea why or what I should do to get it working?
[08:21] <johnf> has 2.0.4 not hit pqm?
[08:24] <fullermd> PQM committed "Release 2.0.4 final" on Thursday...
[08:24] <johnf> my bad. Wasn't looking at the 2.0 branch
[08:33] <poolie> hello all
[08:35] <poolie> igc, hi?
[09:29] <james_w> good morning sprinters
[09:47] <poolie> hello james_w
[09:48] <poolie> are you home now?
[09:54] <james_w> no, I'm still in NZ
[10:01] <hydratenaturally> i did something stupid...
[10:02] <ChrisMorgan> Does anyone know how I can get nautilus integration via bzr-gtk working?
[10:02] <hydratenaturally> using a hosted svn solution, i checked out the repo using bzr-svn, made some bzr --local committ's, went to make a big upstream committ, and when i did a bzr update it removed all my locally committed changes
[10:04] <ChrisMorgan> hydratenaturally: I think that's one of the times for that famous saying, "Whoops."
[10:04] <hydratenaturally> yeah...
[10:04] <hydratenaturally> well, i'm just lacking the knowledge of bzr to go back and find my locally comitted changes
[10:04] <hydratenaturally> i imagine a few commands here and there saves my life
[10:05] <hydratenaturally> using debian or ubuntu by chance chris ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bzr-gtk/+bug/287988
[10:05] <fullermd> Update didn't remove your locally committed changes, it pivoted them to be a pending merge.
[10:06] <hydratenaturally> mm ok
[10:06] <hydratenaturally> sigh so where is this pending merge
[10:06] <fullermd> Check status.
[10:07] <ChrisMorgan> hydratenaturally: ubuntu, amd64
[10:07] <hydratenaturally> status says nothing
[10:07] <fullermd> Then you did a revert or some such since the update.
[10:07] <ChrisMorgan> hydratenaturally: the thing is it's not working.  It's meant to be in there (they've even got screenshots of it) but the emblems are not being overlaid as they should
[10:08] <ChrisMorgan> hydratenaturally: `bzr log`?
[10:08] <fullermd> Log by itself won't help after the pivot, the revs aren't in that branch's history anymore.
[10:08] <ChrisMorgan> You may want just the last N revisions though, add -l20 for the last 20
[10:08] <hydratenaturally> ugh i promise i didn't revert, here is a log of what happened http://pastie.org/793276
[10:09] <ChrisMorgan> Ooh, another chris!  ;-)
[10:10] <hydratenaturally> yeah, is there a way of reviewing only your --local committ's ?
[10:10] <fullermd> Well, then either (a) there weren't any local commits in that branch, or (b) some weird bug exists hidden in bzr that nobody else has ever seen.
[10:10]  * fullermd isn't better on (b).
[10:10] <fullermd> Or betting, either.
[10:11] <fullermd> You can use 'heads' (in bzrtools) to see if there are any dead heads in the repo.  Lost local commits would show up there.
[10:11] <hydratenaturally> history | grep ci | grep local shows me making local committs, i maybe dellusional...
[10:12] <fullermd> Or you may be making them in different checkouts.
[10:12] <hydratenaturally> checked that
[10:13] <hydratenaturally> heads doesn't say much, just something about my last upstream committ
[10:14] <fullermd> You probably need heads --dead-only
[10:14] <fullermd> I don't think it lists dead heads by default.
[10:14] <hydratenaturally> still nothing
[10:15] <fullermd> Is the repo shared with other branches/checkouts?
[10:15] <hydratenaturally> nah, very vanilla
[10:15] <hydratenaturally> remotely hosted on beanstalk
[10:15] <hydratenaturally> did initial import with svn
[10:15] <fullermd> Not the svn repo, your local bzr repo.
[10:16] <hydratenaturally> nope
[10:16] <hydratenaturally> no local branching or checkouts
[10:16] <fullermd> Then there aren't any commits in the repo that aren't in the history in svn.
[10:17] <hydratenaturally> bzr log shows none
[10:19] <hydratenaturally> actually they're off by 1
[10:22] <ChrisMorgan> Well, I got bzr/nautilus integration working.  sudo ln -s /usr/share/pyshared/bzrlib/plugins/gtk/nautilus-bzr.py /usr/lib/nautilus/extensions-2.0/python/ and then restart nautilus
[10:27] <hydratenaturally> man this sucks....
[10:30] <hydratenaturally> um where does bzr store committs with --local ?
[10:30] <fullermd> The same place it stores any other revisions.
[10:30] <hydratenaturally> how would i go about pursing that, to say look for one of these deleted files
[10:32] <fullermd> Available evidence suggests there aren't any there, which means (since it takes heroic measures to remove things from a repo) there never were any.
[10:32] <fullermd> If they don't show up in heads --all, they're not heads.  The only way they could not be heads would be to be in the ancestry of a branch in the repo.
[10:33] <fullermd> Since you say there's only the one [pseudo-]branch (that checkout), it means either the revs aren't there (and so never were), or they're in the ancestry of that checkout (which is the same as the svn repo's).
[10:34] <fullermd> Of course, it's _possible_ there's some bug somewhere along the line that's preventing them from showing up, and also prevented them from being left as pending merges in that update.
[10:35] <fullermd> But it would be the first hint I've heard of such, after all the features have been around a long time, and I wouldn't know where to start looking for it.
[10:35] <hydratenaturally> yeah i doubt it's a bug, probably something stupid i did
[10:35] <fullermd> Well, start looking at the assumptions.
[10:36] <fullermd> Check out info -v, for instance.
[10:36] <fullermd> If it's not using a shared repo, there's no way some other branch could be interfering with the heads detection.  If it is, see what other branches are in it.  That can eliminate one question, one way or another.
[10:37] <fullermd> See how many revs it lists being in the branch history, and how many are in the repository.  Being from svn, it's probably a linear history, so maybe they should match up?  Not sure how strong an indicator that might be.
[10:37] <hydratenaturally> k odd, bzr info -v shows repository: 36 revisions
[10:37] <hydratenaturally> but bzr log only shows me 30 revisions
[10:37] <fullermd> What's the first line of info say?
[10:37] <hydratenaturally> http://pastie.org/793293
[10:38] <fullermd> 'k, take your right hand, and hold it about 2 feet away from your left cheek.
[10:38] <hydratenaturally> yeah i'm stupid i get it
[10:39] <fullermd> 8-}
[10:39] <fullermd> Then look at how 'heads' lists two heads, with one of them flagged as the tip of the branch (checkout), and the other listed as dead.
[10:40] <fullermd> What version of bzr are you running, BTW?  rich-root-pack suggests pre-2.0; an upgrade may be in order (not that it has any bearing on this issue; just a general query)
[10:41] <hydratenaturally> this bug seems interesting
[10:41] <hydratenaturally> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/395514
[10:41] <hydratenaturally> debian 2.0.3-1
[10:41] <hydratenaturally> bzr-svn 1.0.0-1
[10:41] <hydratenaturally> debian = bzr
[10:41] <fullermd> Hm.  Maybe Debian makes local changes, or you had an older version when you made the checkout.
[10:41] <fullermd> Anyway.
[10:42] <fullermd> So that dead head is presumably the head of your local commits.
[10:42] <hydratenaturally> ok, makes sense
[10:42] <hydratenaturally> my bzr knowledge is lacking on how to merge those changes into my "working" head
[10:42] <fullermd> So you can use 'merge' to setup a merge of them.
[10:43] <fullermd> (of course, a lot of the merge info won't get into svn; unavoidable.  But the changes will, crumbed into one rev)
[10:43] <fullermd> `bzr merge -rchris@camus-20100125091843-zdk7x8gxpdeq8s4l .`
[10:43] <fullermd> (the trailing '.' is important)
[10:43] <fullermd> Then the usual check/commit.
[10:44] <hydratenaturally> ah ok didn't see revision-id there in heads -all
[10:45] <hydratenaturally> chris@camus:~/projects/fashionbone/bzr-beanstalk$ bzr merge -rchris@camus-20100125091843-zdk7x8gxpdeq8s4l .
[10:45] <hydratenaturally> bzr: ERROR: No namespace registered for string: u'chris@camus-20100125091843-zdk7x8gxpdeq8s4l'
[10:45] <hydratenaturally> just wtf
[10:45] <poolie> hydratenaturally: you need -r<EMAIL_ADDRESS>i think
[10:45] <fullermd> OK, now I think you're lying about your bzr version too   :p
[10:46] <hydratenaturally> chris@camus:~/projects/fashionbone/bzr-beanstalk$ bzr version
[10:46] <hydratenaturally> Bazaar (bzr) 2.0.3
[10:46] <fullermd> OK, maybe not.  I thought the DWIM was in 2.0....
[10:46] <fullermd> But it looks like 2.1.  So what poolie said.
[10:51] <hydratenaturally> can't get the right syntax
[10:51] <hydratenaturally> chris@camus:id
[10:51] <hydratenaturally> vice versa
[10:51] <fullermd> No, -rrevid:chris@camus-20100125091843-zdk7x8gxpdeq8s4l
[10:52] <fullermd> revid: tells bzr it's getting a revision id, then the string.
[10:52] <hydratenaturally> ah
[10:53] <hydratenaturally> ah it worked, awesome
[10:53] <hydratenaturally> thanks for all the help guys, you save me oh so much pain
[10:53] <fullermd> Don't forget to commit the merge, before you forget it's there and mix new work in with it.
[10:54] <hydratenaturally> heh, course, i just rsync'd the whole dir to my raid1 "just in case"
[10:54] <hydratenaturally> i'm so overtired at this point that....
[11:02] <hydratenaturally> fullermd: thanks again
[11:02] <fullermd> np
[11:02] <hydratenaturally> i was about to take 2 xanax and have a drink
[11:02] <hydratenaturally> i hear they call it the "jackson"
[11:03]  * fullermd . o O ( Isn't that pretty much the same thing as using SVN anyway? ) O o .
[11:03] <hydratenaturally> ahahahah
[11:04] <hydratenaturally> i should tack on 10/hour to my rate to use subversion
[11:04] <hydratenaturally> and 25/hour for cvs
[11:05] <fullermd> How much for Clearcase?
[11:06] <hydratenaturally> oh jesus
[11:06] <hydratenaturally> free healthcare
[11:06] <hydratenaturally> forever
[11:28] <doctormo> What's the best way to diagnose bzrlib being used in a thread... I can't decide if it's just taking a while to get a transport, or if it's stalled dead.
[11:35] <doctormo> I think it's the get transports that are freezing out
[11:35] <doctormo> Man bzrlib is way worse than launchpadlib. at least lp is ok so long as your lp object is in the same thread. bzr just dies if is so much as sees threading being imported.
[11:36] <doctormo> Worse, it dies by freezing without errors. locking up, charming.
[11:42] <Raim> is there a short URL spec to refer to the parent/push branch from the command line?
[11:46] <Kinnison> what are you trying to achieve?
[11:48] <fullermd> :parent, :push
[12:09] <Kinnison> are those urlspecs?
[12:09] <Kinnison> coo
[12:10] <lifeless> doctormo: this is patently false as we use threading ourselves
[12:10] <fullermd> Not urlspecs, no.  Builtin aliases.
[12:10] <lifeless> doctormo: do you have a ssce ?
[12:11] <lifeless> sorry, sscce
[12:35] <doctormo> lifeless: No, just rotten luck.
[12:37] <lifeless> if you have a deadlock, gdb can be great at debugging it
[12:37] <lifeless> you may have found a python bug, for instance.
[12:37] <bialix> heya bzr!
[12:39] <doctormo> lifeless: Possible, I'll have to look into it using gdb.
[12:41] <doctormo> Time for bed now though...
[12:41] <doctormo> thanks for your help
[13:10] <epschern> can i set up tortoise bazaar in a way so someone with bzr 1.3.1 can access it? (think i had no voice when i asked before)
[13:13] <blenderkid> hi. I did a mistake with bzr revert. I reverted all files instead of just one file. now the other files are lost. Is there a way to revert a revert?
[13:14] <beuno> blenderkid, bzr makes a backup of the files when reverting
[13:15] <beuno> try an ls -la in the dir
[13:15] <blenderkid> a file with a ~1~ ?
[13:15] <beuno> yes
[13:15] <blenderkid> ahh good *puh*
[13:16] <blenderkid> Do I just need to rename it?
[13:16] <beuno> yeap
[13:16] <blenderkid> thank you so much :)
[13:16] <MTecknology> blenderkid: I think that little feature has probably been able to save countless hair pullings
[13:17] <blenderkid> :D
[13:24] <epschern> hm, can i somehow downgrade my repository format?
[13:25] <fullermd> Depending on the exact pair of formats.  'down' and 'up' are arbitrary directions.
[13:28] <epschern> well, the server has only 1.3.1 and sysadmin refused to upgrade... but our windows machines have newest tortoise bazaar
[13:28] <epschern> i found now i can set the format on init... but don't want to lose all my commits so far
[13:28] <fullermd> You can 'update' to rich-root-pack, which 1.3.1 can read.
[13:29] <fullermd> Presumably, your current stuff is in 2a, which you can't move to a non-rich-root format.  But r-r-p will take you back to 1.0.
[13:31] <bialix> vila, beuno: here?
[13:32] <beuno> bialix, hey
[13:32] <bialix> q about upload
[13:33] <bialix> beuno: any ideas what's wrong: http://pastebin.com/d5aaaadc0
[13:33]  * beuno looks
[13:35] <beuno> bialix, no, there seems to be an error with the path somehow
[13:36] <epschern> fullermd: i tried it but it failed: http://paste.debian.net/57608/
[13:36] <beuno> does the branch have anything funky?
[13:36] <bialix> I guess no
[13:37] <beuno> bialix, maybe you could try trunk?
[13:37] <bialix> trunk of the bzr-upload?
[13:37] <bialix> ok, I'll try
[13:38] <fullermd> epschern: Mmph.  Stupid upgrade.
[13:38] <fullermd> epschern: You can work around it by 'init'ing a new branch in rich-root-pack format, then 'pull'ing from your 2a branch.
[13:52] <bialix> beuno: upload trunk works for me
[13:53] <bialix> beuno, vila: can you release it as 1.0.1?
[13:53] <bialix> current version bundled into windows installer seems to be broken
[13:54] <bialix> and it seems you know about it
[13:54] <beuno> bialix, sure, I'll chat with vila about releasing soon
[13:54] <bialix> ok
[13:59] <epschern> fullermd: thanks a lot, that worked
[14:00] <epschern> now i still hope cent-os or whatever the server has installed will upgrade their bzr version at some point so there won't be the deprecation message each time :)
[14:01] <fullermd> Well, you can push and pull back and forth.  So you could use 2a in your branch on the machine with non-ancient bzr version, and just use r-r-p on the old box.
[14:02] <epschern> i see
[14:02] <epschern> might do that once i'm more used to it (just had to switch over from git)
[14:14] <jelmer> poolie, lifeless, vila, jam: http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/BzrForeignBranches/Infrastructure
[14:28] <vila> bialix: bzr-upload is supposed to talk to a server where *bzr* is not installed, trying to make it talk to a bzr *smart* server is... interesting but they have opposite aims: bzr-upload want to provide a remote file system abstraction, the smart server try to get away from the remote file system abstraction
[14:28] <bialix> ыщ Ш ырщгдв гыу ыаез штыеуфв,
[14:28] <bialix> so I should use sftp instead?
[14:29] <bialix> hi vila
[14:29] <vila> bialix: sftp sound better
[14:29] <vila> bialix: hi :D
[14:30] <bialix> ok, I understand you about abstraction
[14:30] <bialix> maybe you need to puth this remark to upload's help
[14:30] <bialix> *put
[15:18] <lifeless> poolie: http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/a_clean_BTS_is_a_sign_of_a_sick_mind/
[15:30] <lifeless> poolie: http://bethesignal.org/blog/2009/12/31/this-is-not-a-new-years-resolution/
[15:43] <jelmer> poolie, https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~jelmer/tribunal/view-subunit/+merge/18006
[16:01] <radoe_> Where should I report broken links in the online version of the user guide?
[16:03] <rubbs> radoe_: make a bug report on lp, or mail the mailing list
[16:05] <radoe> rubbs: report it simply against bzr or is there something  better suited for docs?
[16:05] <rubbs> ah, report against bzr, but put 'doc' in the tags list at the bottom. Someone should take it up soon.
[16:06] <radoe> rubbs: thx.
[16:06] <rubbs> np
[16:25] <micahg> with bzr-svn do I have to worry about branches not being from the same source when merging?
[17:27] <micahg> with bzr-svn do I have to worry about branches not being from the same source when merging?
[17:28] <maxb> micahg: The question is a little vague, could you clarify?
[17:28] <micahg> I want to have a production and a devel branch in svn and import them both locally with bzr and push to svn with bzr svn
[17:28] <micahg> I was wondering if they need a common ancestor to merge
[17:28] <micahg> in bzr
[17:31] <micahg> maxb: is that any clearer?
[17:31] <maxb> They do need a common ancestor, but bzr-svn should deterministically import the common history i.e. it is _supposed_ to just work.
[17:34] <micahg> maxb: if I branch the dev code in bzr and then bzr-svn push to the prod branch, will that take care of the common ancestry
[17:35] <maxb> I think that bzr-svn will use various bzr* svn properties to record this such that bzr-svn on another computer can do the right thing
[17:36] <jelmer> yes, it will
[18:01] <poolie> jam: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/512418
[20:08] <malibu> Hi there.. can anyone tell me how to see previous file versions in bazaar explorer?
[20:11] <malibu> I'm selecting the file in the tree pane but can't figure out how to see the versions
[20:15] <rubbs> malibu: ok, this may not be the only way, but I found a way to do it.
[20:16] <malibu> cool, thanks
[20:16] <rubbs> click on the browse button and it opens up a "file browser" You can then put a revision in the upper right corner
[20:17] <rubbs> that should change it to the revision and the files should then open as that revision...
[20:17] <malibu> ok mine opens up with WT:, which I suppose stands for working tree..
[20:18] <rubbs> correct
[20:18] <malibu> ok very cool.. thanks!
[20:18] <rubbs> you can replace that with any revision spec. So like to get to the one just before you can put "-1" in
[20:18] <malibu> ahh
[20:19] <malibu> Still I wonder if there is a way to get a list of every revision for a file..
[20:19] <rubbs> oh you mean like annotate?
[20:19] <malibu> what is annotate?
[20:20] <malibu> Sorry I'm a bit of a newB
[20:22] <rubbs> np,
[20:22] <rubbs> annotate will open the file and give you the revision that each line was changed last on
[20:22] <rubbs> or do you mean just the lastest revision that file was changed?
[20:23] <malibu> Well what I would like to see is a list of revisions that the file was changed on
[20:23] <rubbs> ah.
[20:23] <NfNitLoop> 'bzr log <filename>'.   Not sure how to do that in the GUI you're using.
[20:24] <rubbs> so if fileA was changed on revision 2, 5, and 7 then you want to see 2, 5, 7
[20:24] <rubbs> right?
[20:24] <malibu> yes
[20:24] <NfNitLoop> maybe right-click on the file?  IS there a "log" option in the context menu?
[20:24]  * NfNitLoop will brb, fixing IRC daemon.
[20:24] <rubbs> malibu: ok, easy.
[20:24] <malibu> Right clicking on the file does not do anything, unfortunately
[20:25] <rubbs> malibu: go browse then right click on file and hit "show log"
[20:25] <malibu> ahh.. must be in browse
[20:25] <malibu> I was trying to right click on the tree node for the file in the main window
[20:26] <malibu> I get error  bzr+ssh://.... is not a local path
[20:26] <rubbs> yeah, I have done that before. The reason he doesn't do that is the work that is needed in the browse window can be slow, so he didn't us it in that main view, because it could make the whole thing slow
[20:26] <rubbs> this way if you need some of that history viewing, you just hit browse, but don't have all the slow-downs by default
[20:27] <rubbs> the manage button opens an actaul file browser to the working tree
[20:28] <NfNitLoop> NOW WITH MOAR BEEF.
[20:28] <NfNitLoop> :p
[20:30] <malibu> OK well I'm not sure if it will work for me..
[20:30] <malibu> I get an error
[22:25] <Kilroo> Hmm. Does a bound stacked branch actually even mean anything?
[22:32] <thumper> Kilroo: I don't think so
[22:33] <thumper> Kilroo: although I guess you could have a light weight checkout of a stacked branch
[22:33] <Kilroo> I'm guessing the command I left running at work won't accomplish much then...
[22:33] <thumper> Kilroo: but I don't think you can commit to that due to a known bug
[22:33] <Kilroo> I'm trying to find a workaround for something
[22:33] <thumper> which something?
[22:33] <thumper> and where are you using stacking?
[22:35] <Kilroo> Well, what I have set up (albeit not thoroughly tested) for one of the subversion repositories I need to work with is a treeless repository with one branch bound to the subversion repo, feature branches as needed, and a lightweight checkout elsewhere that I can switch around among them. Nothing stacked there, at least not so far.
[22:36] <Kilroo> Unfortunately I can't do that with the another subversion repo I need to work with because revision 30 makes bzr run out of memory.
[22:37]  * bialix looking for igc
[22:39] <Kilroo> The command I left running when I departed from work today (which makes less and less sense to me the more I think about it) was a branch --bind --stacked from an svn checkout of the repository in question to a branch in a treeless repository.
[22:40] <mwhudson> bound and stacked are basically orthogonal
[22:40] <bialix> Kilroo: looks very funny
[22:41] <Kilroo> I think what I was trying to get out of it almost makes sense...but not quite...
[22:42] <bialix> mwhudson: does our beloved core devs sprinting again?
[22:42] <mwhudson> bialix: yes, in france this time
[22:42] <bialix> nice
[22:43] <bialix> I suppose igc is not there
[22:44] <mwhudson> bialix: right
[22:45] <mwhudson> he got the ok from his dr to travel, but decided not to go this time
[22:45] <Kilroo> What the heck would that do if it did make sense, come to think of it? Make a local branch from the subversion repo that would require a connection to it to do anything, have to be rebased to it any time it changed, and automatically commit to subversion when I committed locally?
[22:45] <Kilroo> This is making my head hurt. I think I'm being ridiculous.
[22:46] <bialix> mwhudson: thanks for the info. I have some q for him about explorer and translations. will hang around some time tonight
[22:46] <Kilroo> Stupid revision where the whole blasted site including graphics and pdfs and logs and probably freaking archive files gets added all at once.
[22:46] <mwhudson> bialix: yeah, i think he'll be on in a bit
[22:47]  * bialix nods
[22:47] <bialix> thanks
[22:48] <mwhudson> bialix: oh
[22:48] <mwhudson> bialix: except it's australia day today
[22:48] <mwhudson> so he's probably not going to be around :/
[22:48] <bialix> rats
[22:49] <bialix> australia go forward!
[22:50]  * bialix likes to think somewhere is summer right now, while outside his home is -25 celsius degrees
[23:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> woo, public holidays :)
[23:16] <NfNitLoop> Just had a loooong discussion w/ coworkers about branching/merging/SVNfail.
[23:23] <NfNitLoop> (rather intelligent) coworker was asking how large companies handle large numbers of branches.
[23:23] <NfNitLoop> I said hopefully not via svn. :p
[23:28] <Kilroo> Heh.
[23:28] <Kilroo> You know what's worse than svn?
[23:29] <idnar> haha
[23:29] <Kilroo> svn where instead of having a repo for the project and, say, a production branch and a development branch...you have two repos. One for production and the other for development. With everything at the repository root so you can't branch from it either.
[23:30] <Kilroo> And at least one revision in the repository that's so big bzr runs out of memory trying to look at it, so you can't even get local branches working.
[23:33] <NfNitLoop> oh god, yeah, you mentioned the prod/dev repos the other day.
[23:33] <NfNitLoop> That's some special kind of fail.
[23:33] <NfNitLoop> We actually do things mostly sanely around here.
[23:34] <NfNitLoop> we've got a 4.0 branch (old)   a 5.0 branch (current stable) and a 6.0 (dev) branch.
[23:34] <NfNitLoop> We do merges forward (->) most of the time.
[23:34] <Kilroo> The one thing to be said in its favor is that we have the revision history and who committed what, which we didn't have with plain ftp.
[23:34] <NfNitLoop> but every now and then someone does something that makes svn merging go all wonky.
[23:35] <NfNitLoop> like, not merge from the root of the project.
[23:35] <NfNitLoop> Or manually revert a change.
[23:35] <Kilroo> Unfortunately the people who set it up apparently didn't think beyond stacking that on top of the ftp approach.
[23:35] <Kilroo> And I seem to be the only person who ever uses commit messages.
[23:35] <NfNitLoop> Heh.
[23:35] <NfNitLoop> I'll say it again -- look for new work. :p
[23:36] <Kilroo> I -want- to fix it.
[23:37] <Kilroo> I think I actually have them convinced that it's worth it to let me take a break from developing new features to work on improving HOW we develop. Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to finish the two months-overdue database projects in my queue first.
[23:39] <Kilroo> And because of the braindead way we have svn set up on the things that are using it now, switching to using it in a reasonable way is going to be as much of a hassle as switching to it in the first place was.
[23:39] <Kilroo> And since I can't pull in the existing history using bzr because of the giant revisions, we may have to lose all the existing history instead of just half of it.
[23:40] <NfNitLoop> Why would you have to lose history?
[23:41] <NfNitLoop> would you be ditching SVN?
[23:41] <Kilroo> I wish...no, there's two things to deal with.
[23:43] <Kilroo> One, with development and production having thus far been separate repositories, I'm not sure there is any sane way to convert them into branches that can be treated like branches without pretty much ditching the history from one of them.
[23:44] <Kilroo> Specifically, make production into the trunk, branch from it for development, paste development over top of it and commit all of those changes as "fixing this harebrained separate repositories business."
[23:45] <Kilroo> The other problem is that the linux administrator seems to think we can migrate everything without either his intervention or root access to either the old repositories or where the new ones are going.
[23:45] <NfNitLoop> should be able to as long as you have write access.
[23:46] <Kilroo> As far as I've been able to determine, svn doesn't seem provide any means for performing the migration with those limitations, though.
[23:46] <NfNitLoop> though you might need him to shut down the svnserv or whatever it's called, if that's how you're accessing it.
[23:46] <NfNitLoop> anyway.
[23:46] <NfNitLoop> This isn't #svn. :p
[23:46] <Kilroo> At least, nothing I tried seemed to be working. However, branching using bzr-svn and then pushing to the new repository worked a treat.
[23:46] <mkanat> Kilroo: So it's fastimport that's running out of memory, here, that you're talking about?
[23:47] <Kilroo> mkanat: No, it's bzr-svn.
[23:47] <mkanat> Kilroo: Oh. Have you tried bzr-fastimport?
[23:48] <Kilroo> mkanat: currently I can't make any use of a solution that does not leave me capable of committing back to the current svn repository.
[23:48] <mkanat> Ah.
[23:49] <Kilroo> Yeah, fun stuff.