[04:50] <csteed> Hey guys and girls. I installed 18.10 testing image a week ago. Will my system update to new developments in 18.10 or do I need to reinstall?
[04:50] <wxl> it'll update
[04:50] <csteed> Thanks
[04:50] <wxl> well, as long as you run the updates.. or set up unattended-upgrades
[04:51] <wxl> admittedly you won't see much change for a little while
[04:51] <wxl> at the end of the cycle everyone wants to just take a break :)
[04:51] <csteed> Well done though. Things look nice.
[04:52] <wxl> yay thanks :)
[04:52] <wxl> aren't you the person who contributed some last minute changes to the manual?
[04:52] <csteed> Yes.
[04:52] <wxl> thank you!!!!
[04:53] <wxl> we can always use more folks on the documenation team, if you're looking for something to do :)
[04:53] <csteed> Yeah I really enjoy the distro. I'll help out whenever I have the time.
[04:54] <wxl> cool. if you're looking for something new to do, we can always make suggestions, too (and free training!)
[04:54] <csteed> I don't know how formal the team is but I can commit about an hour most days.
[04:54] <wxl> i'd sit around #lubuntu-devel if i were you
[04:55] <wxl> oh we're not super formal at all. i mean there's a couple of us who i'd say are sort of responsible for ensuring this or that happens but mostly it's just nice people doing what they can when they can
[04:56] <csteed> Great stuff. I've been commiting changes with no effort and people have been merging when they have time so I figured that's how things go.
[04:56] <csteed> Thanks though. I'll probably be in touch
[04:57] <demophobia> hey
[04:57] <wxl> pretty much. i think you're doing stuff on github which requires a little extra magic on our end. if you want to know the canonical way, we could teach you that
[04:57] <wxl> ta csteed :)
[04:57] <demophobia> why lubuntu rather than xubuntu, if you have 1.66 GHz CPU and 2 GB RAM?
[04:57] <wxl> yo demophobia
[04:57] <wxl> cuz it's better? :)
[04:57] <demophobia> i'm using lubuntu but looking at xubuntu i wonder if i'm cheating myself if it uses only a little more and ... well ...
[04:57] <wxl> what do you think you're missing?
[04:58] <demophobia> why is lubuntu better than wxl if you have 2 GB RAM and 1.66 GHz CPU? i'm thinking i'm missing a prettier OS with a bit more functionality (e.g. search bar in start menu)
[04:58] <demophobia> *better than xubuntu
[04:58] <wxl> the better was a joke. the question of which distro is best is about as valid as which text editor is best or which pizza is best for that matter.
[04:59] <demophobia> ;_;
[04:59] <demophobia> isn't it better to use a computer more to its capacity?
[04:59] <wxl> similarly prettier is something you'll have to judge for yourself
[04:59] <demophobia> have you tried both?
[04:59] <wxl> 18.10's menu does have a search though
[04:59] <wxl> and a launcher
[04:59] <wxl> i haven't used xubuntu in a while
[04:59] <demophobia> is lubuntu switching from lxde to Qt?
[04:59] <demophobia> are those two different things?
[04:59] <wxl> we already did
[04:59] <wxl> 18.10
[05:00] <demophobia> i've got lubuntu 18.04.1 LTS
[05:00] <demophobia> i'm new so i figured i should go with LTS
[05:00] <csteed> Yes
[05:01] <wxl> that's reasonable, but a word of warning: upgrading to 18.10 or even 20.04 (the next LTS) will not be easy
[05:01] <demophobia> why Qt rather than Xfce?
[05:01] <demophobia> wxl, why's that?
[05:01] <demophobia> not simply copying data files to hard drive and reinstalling? does grub have to change? (i have dual boot with win7)
[05:01] <csteed> I suggest you stick with 18.04 and install a search app, try synapse. It searches for files and applications
[05:02] <wxl> xfce is not a graphics toolkit. it's a desktop environment. your question may be why qt rather than gtk, in which case the answer is that qt is much easier to work with
[05:02] <csteed> LXDE is very fast, and similar to XP-style, that is what attracted me to it.
[05:02] <demophobia> i read some pages about lubuntu vs xubuntu
[05:02] <wxl> 18.10 is COMPLETELY different. every single piece changes. so you can't really upgrade. i mean, you can, but you basically end up with the new version of the old lubuntu plus the new version of the new lubuntu
[05:02] <demophobia> the consensus seemed to be, "use lubuntu for limited computers; xubuntu is a bit nicer if you have a bit more RAM"
[05:03] <wxl> yeah and lxqt is a lot more modern, so that comparison starts to breakdown
[05:03] <demophobia> i'm wondering why someone would want to use lubuntu rather than xubuntu even if they had a computer able to run xubuntu
[05:03] <wxl> lubuntu has also stopped focusing SOLELY on keeping things lightweight at all costs. practicality is something we consider now too XD
[05:03] <demophobia> right, so then why not just merge with xubuntu
[05:03] <wxl> we're still the lightest thing out there, though
[05:04] <wxl> because qt and gtk are completely incompatible
[05:04] <demophobia> i found a page that recommended 'Puppy Linux' rather than lubuntu
[05:04] <wxl> not to mention the two desktop environments are completely different
[05:04] <wxl> omg please hear me now: never ever ever ever use puppy linux
[05:04] <demophobia> i mean, it listed "the five most lightweight" (or 5 best or something) and it listed Puppy Linux instead of lubuntu
[05:04] <demophobia> why, what's wrong with that distro?
[05:04] <csteed> Puppy is not user friendly.
[05:04] <wxl> puppy is maybe best considered a tool rather than an actual operating system
[05:04] <demophobia> o_o
[05:05] <wxl> it's insanely cobbled together
[05:05] <demophobia> that's unfortunate
[05:05] <wxl> there is really no distro i will say demeaning things about (although there are those that i'd advise against), but puppy is the exception
[05:05] <demophobia> so you like lubuntu simply because it's more lightweight than xubuntu?
[05:06] <demophobia> and in that case, if i'm lagging occasionally with lubuntu (e.g. webpages) then i definitely should not try xubuntu?
[05:06] <wxl> i mainly like lubuntu because it's simple. our philosophy is to "not get in the way"
[05:06] <wxl> the modern web is a demanding thing....
[05:07] <wxl> i doubt xubuntu will prove to be dramatically different, but it will use a bit more resources
[05:07] <wxl> but if you're struggling, i wouldn't bother
[05:08] <wxl> if you really want to push things, you could just use the netinstall image to install ubuntu-core and build up a completely minimal x environment with e.g. openbox or fluxbox as a window manager. bolt on only the pieces you need from there.
[05:14] <demophobia> i don't have the time to learn all that ... i'm trying already to get the community's help to sort out the few issues i do have
[05:14] <demophobia> that are i think far more simple
[05:14] <wxl> then i'd stick with what you've got
[05:14] <wxl> btw what are those issues?
[05:14] <demophobia> please see https://askubuntu.com/questions/1085983/how-to-fix-other-software-listing-duplicate-entries
[05:15] <demophobia> i haven't asked about this yet, but clicking my keyboard icon in the bottom right to try to switch to japanese keyboard also crashed my computer 1-2 days ago
[05:15] <wxl> this is your question?
[05:15] <demophobia> it's one issue i came across, yes (the keyboard freezing my desktop environment(?) was another)
[05:16] <demophobia> another is radiotray's error messages when opening via terminal
[05:16] <wxl> my question is whether or not this question on askubuntu was asked by you or if this describes an issue you're having
[05:16] <demophobia> oh
[05:17] <demophobia> does the distinction matter? >_> it is an issue i'm having
[05:17] <wxl> yes, it does
[05:17] <wxl> which duplicate entries do you see?
[05:17] <demophobia> ... the ones in that screenshot `-`
[05:18] <wxl> so this is your question? jeez
[05:18] <demophobia> sorry
[05:18] <wxl> like pulling teeth over here
[05:18] <demophobia> double sorry
[05:18] <wxl> what's this braave browser business?
[05:18] <demophobia> i gave up on that. 32-bit only for linux, the website didn't make that clear
[05:18] <demophobia> *64-bit only
[05:18] <wxl> i'd probably start by deleting those
[05:19] <demophobia> i did already
[05:21] <wxl> pastebin /etc/apt/sources.list
[05:21] <wxl> also the contents of /etc/apt/sources.list.d
[05:21] <wxl> you can use the pastebinit package for this
[05:21] <wxl> like `pastebinit -i /etc/apt/sources.list` and `ls -alh /etc/apt/source.list.d | pastebinit`
[05:25] <demophobia> https://pastebin.com/ypkMDRG2
[05:26] <demophobia> oh wow
[05:27] <wxl> you said you were on 18.04 but this is clearly 16.04
[05:27] <wxl> you might want to confirm that with lsb_release -a
[05:28] <wxl> but yet you have bionic repos enabled
[05:29] <demophobia> oh ... so the update failed then ... i did get a message that it had failed, but it looked like it succeeded in other ways, e.g. the computer tells me it's 18.04
[05:29] <demophobia> at the very end it said it failed, after it had gone through the entire installation
[05:29] <demophobia> so then i should just do a reinstallation? ...
[05:29] <demophobia> i'm afraid of messing up grub and losing my win7 'cause i bought this from amazon and they wouldn't give me the windows license
[05:30] <demophobia> it's an OEM enterprise win7 installation or something (dell) that i dualbooted installing 16.04 a while back
[05:30] <wxl> well even if you mess up grub it's not going to remove windows
[05:30] <wxl> that said, usually it's best when you run into errors to make note of the exact nature of those errors… otherwise it's hard to tell you how to fix it
[05:31] <demophobia> does say 18.04 https://pastebin.com/75wx6yLG
[05:31] <wxl> that said i have no clue what happened
[05:31] <demophobia> oh, i took photos
[05:31] <demophobia> i can say exactly
[05:31] <wxl> so i'd replace xenial with bionic on your sources.list
[05:31] <wxl> was there nothing in /etc/apt/sources.list.d?/
[05:31] <demophobia> first, i had to reset my password via the recovery root method described on askubuntu to login
[05:32] <demophobia> then, i tried to ... well, i'm suddenly thinking i shoudl go to bed
[05:32] <demophobia> Could not install 'doc-base' was the first error during the upgrade
[05:32] <wxl> did it say why?
[05:32] <demophobia> Installed doc-base package post-installation script subprocess returned error exist status 10
[05:32] <demophobia> *exit
[05:33] <wxl> can you send that pic?
[05:33] <wxl> that includes that part?
[05:34] <demophobia> 'k ... i'll send it then go to bed if that's all right -- is it useful for your development of the OS? or are you only asking for it to help me personally now?
[05:34] <wxl> i was only ever asking for your help
[05:36] <demophobia> oh. well, i'm getting the pic now but it only says what i typed
[05:38] <demophobia> is there a preferred method for sending/uploading photos? i could log into imgur but it'd take more time to find my login info
[05:38] <demophobia> but ...
[05:38] <wxl> does an upgrade work?
[05:38] <demophobia> it says i already have the latest software
[05:38] <wxl> share.riseup.net works fine
[05:38] <wxl> did you replace xenial with bionic in your sources.list?
[05:39] <demophobia> not yet
[05:39] <wxl> do that and then try to do an upgrade
[05:39] <wxl> also you never told me about /etc/apt/sources.list.d
[05:39] <demophobia> https://share.riseup.net/#aM0YcZjsUy-YqA3eT3Savw
[05:40] <wxl> oh, right. this wasn't a do-release-upgrade. bummer.
[05:41] <demophobia> i made a liveDVD. should i copy my documents to USB and then reinstall from liveDVD?
[05:41] <demophobia> but i tried to upgrade from downloading
[05:41] <wxl> well that would absolutely remove any other concerns
[05:41] <demophobia> i wonder if the problem was a download error: i tried to download from japanese servers, i think (because i was in japan back in the day)
[05:41] <wxl> i'd say it'd be a good idea.
[05:41] <demophobia> from another country
[05:42] <wxl> otherwise i can work to help you with that
[05:43] <demophobia> https://pastebin.com/ixhkE3xh
[05:43] <demophobia> shouldn't i delete those brave-browser files since i can't install the software on this computer?
[05:43] <wxl> yep
[05:44] <demophobia> should i leave the folder in case of future use?
[05:44] <wxl> i would
[05:44] <demophobia> permission denied to delete it via the GUI
[05:44] <demophobia> i guess i need to sudo rm it?
[05:44] <wxl> yep
[05:45] <wxl> or use the open folder as root option in pcmanfm
[05:45] <demophobia> hmm not seeing that when i right click ...
[05:46] <wxl> it's a menu option
[05:46] <wxl> oh nevermind
[05:46] <wxl> pcmanfm doesn't have it. just pcmanfm-qt
[05:46] <wxl> see. told you the new version was better :)
[05:46] <demophobia> oh. not seeing it, but i opened it in terminal then sudo rm'd them
[05:47] <demophobia> lol <3
[05:47] <demophobia> 'k, well, thanks for the exercise and li'l bit experience in linux (or ubuntu)
[05:47] <wxl> np
[05:47] <demophobia> thanks for your time
[05:47] <wxl> if you've got those things sorted and an upgrade just works, you should be fine
[05:47] <demophobia> i guess i'll reinstall from liveDVD -- will it prompt me to erase and overwrite the linux drives only?
[05:48] <demophobia> like, it'll clearly say, "overwrite previous linux, leave windows alone", something like that?
[05:48] <demophobia> (i've got lubuntu 18.04.1 LTS liveDVD)
[05:48] <demophobia> (i verified md5 checksum)
[05:48] <wxl> it will ask you want to do and it will point out different partitions and what they are
[05:48] <wxl> whether or not it's THAT clear, i don't know XD
[05:48]  * demophobia gets nervous
[05:48] <wxl> but it should be fairly obvious i think
[05:48] <demophobia> i've had partition-stuff fail during CD installation before
[05:49] <demophobia> don't recall if it was mandrake linux or ubuntu
[05:49] <wxl> the good news is that if you get there and it's not obvious, then you can back out which is no issue
[05:49] <wxl> if you were manual partitioning, i wouldn't be surprised
[05:49] <demophobia> why's that?
[05:49] <wxl> it's not uncommon for people not well versed with file systems to make mistakes
[05:50] <wxl> recently someone tried to do an install and it blew up horribly and it wasn't obvious to me but the problem was he made / too small
[05:50] <wxl> had he just used one of the autopartition options, it would have been no problem at all
[05:50] <demophobia>  / is a) a folder, b) an arm, ...
[05:50] <wxl> but he wanted something special, so manual partitioning
[05:50] <wxl>  / is the root of all your folders
[05:51] <demophobia> what d'you think of the advice to install OS in one partition and all your data in another?
[05:51] <wxl> i don't think it's a bad idea at all. makes your data more portable
[05:51] <demophobia> then you can have multiple OS or reinstall without touching data, they say
[05:51] <wxl> in particular, i'd say put $HOME on aa separate partition
[05:55] <demophobia> i'm not really sure how to do that  -- seems like / holds everything, 'home' goes inside /, but if you partition to put 'home' on a different partition then you'd have two / ...
[05:55] <wxl> no
[05:55] <demophobia> basically i dunno how the linux filesystem works yet
[05:55] <wxl> it's confusing, but no
[05:56] <wxl> you're simply "mounting" that partition to that particular location
[05:56] <wxl> it's essentially telling the file system that anytime it sees /home it should go looking at the other partition
[05:56] <wxl> in much the same way that as a standard set up, everything in / should be looking at the one partition
[06:01] <demophobia> i actually think i like the minimalism of lubuntu
[06:01] <demophobia> i mean, even if xubuntu had more 'bells and whistles', i think i prefer the aesthetic of simpleness
[06:01] <demophobia> oh, right, thanks
[06:01] <demophobia> i forgot
[06:02] <demophobia> dunno how much i'll remember: i should have gone to bed ... ... 3 hours ago
[06:02] <demophobia> peace
[06:02] <wxl> i'm not sure it has more bells and whistles for that matter
[06:02] <wxl> nite
 If i have a partition with win 7 + an aother with his boot loader if i erase the boot loader win can load with only grub ?
[11:24] <JadedJ> How can I change the window border size on L-ubuntu?
[11:25] <JadedJ> I want to be able to make it easier to resize windows
[11:37] <ilyaigpetrov> JadedJ: which Lubuntu, 18.10?
[11:38] <JadedJ> Lubuntu 16 LTS
 Why speak only the bot (here) ?😂😂
[11:39] <ilyaigpetrov> JadedJ: https://askubuntu.com/questions/833950/size-of-grab-area-for-resizing-window-in-lubuntu
[11:40] <ilyaigpetrov> JadedJ: also search with query: lxde resize zone windows
 @Slider1 [Why speak only the bot (here) ?😂😂], Because on the other side of that is an IRC channel, just like to them we're a bot, but we're really a Telegram channel.
[11:42] <JadedJ> !lxde resize zone windows
 @Slider1 [If i have a partition with win 7 + an aother with his boot loader if i erase the …], Simon
 @tsimonq2 [Because on the other side of that is an IRC channel, just like to them we're a b …], Do you know it
[11:46] <ilyaigpetrov> can't find this room via a telegram client -- how is this tg group named?
 @ilyaigpetrov [<ilyaigpetrov> can't find this room via a telegram client -- how is this tg grou …], https://telegram.lubuntu.me/support because the real link is hidden
 Why do i sometimes log in twice on my Lubuntu 18.04?
 Instead of once,
 Problem on my LightDM?
 If i install lubuntu 18.04 what version of grub it will install ?
[11:56] <hateball> !info grub-pc bionic
[11:56] <hateball> hmmm
 @Slider1 https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=grub&searchon=names&suite=bionic&section=all
[12:03] <ilyaigpetrov> is qlipper installed by default in 18.10? I haven't seen it yesterday in the tray if I recall correctly.
[12:06] <ilyaigpetrov> yes, https://manual.lubuntu.me/2/2.4/2.4.5/Qlipper.html
 Any solution for my question?
[12:12] <ilyaigpetrov> @ancha41: you should try reinstalling some related packages using apt purge to purge the config files
[12:14] <ilyaigpetrov> @ancha41: make a backup beforehand if you have something important in the FS
 OK i'll try it, and i just searching some related packages
 Are LightDM fine?
[12:17] <ilyaigpetrov> I don't know
 If i purge it, can i reinstall it?
 I assume it's LightDM
[12:21] <ilyaigpetrov> @ancha41, in the worst case you will have to use one of the virtual terminals and your wifi connection may be lost after purging. It's a risk to end up with a system booted without any graphical shell
[12:22] <ilyaigpetrov> in the lucky case graphical shell will be available after purging and you will be able to install it again from it
 @ilyaigpetrov [<ilyaigpetrov> @ancha41, in the worst case you will have to use one of the virtu …], That's haunted me lol
[12:31] <ilyaigpetrov> @ancha41: if you end up with a virtual terminal without wifi then you may find some internet cord for connecting to the internet because configuring wifi from a terminal is not easy
[12:44] <hateball> if you have network-manager it's not that bad, you can use 'nmtui' then
 Good news, now it's fine
 After purging and reinstalling it, and restart too. Now 's fine
[12:49] <SchleimKeim> ilyaigpetrov: wpasupplicant
[12:50] <ilyaigpetrov> SchleimKeim: I know, I did this exercise many times but still find that it's not easy
[12:51] <SchleimKeim> ilyaigpetrov: i had to learn it the hard way a few days ago. it didn't take me that long to be honest
[12:51] <SchleimKeim> (but i kinda new already what to look for ;) )
[12:52] <ilyaigpetrov> SchleimKeim: I can't remember the commands. Every time I'm in need to do it I look up commands via my phone or another notebook.
[12:53] <ilyaigpetrov> SchleimKeim: "wpa_passphrase", "wpa_supplicant" -- these names are all I remember not the flags or syntax of the config files
 Oh i forgot to thank you, ilyaigpetrov
[12:54] <ilyaigpetrov> @ancha41: thanks, you are welcome
[12:56] <ilyaigpetrov> @ancha41: did you do it from the graphic shell? I guess after purging it was still usable and you was able to install the needed packages. What were the packages by the way?
 No, from terminal
 i remember it's: light-locker, lighdm-greeter-gtk-, lightdm-greeter-gtk-settings, lubuntu-gtk-core and lightdm
 I decided to using blob in purge
 So, i detected that some packages related to LightDM
[13:01] <ilyaigpetrov> ok
[14:45] <JadedJ> Cheers ilyaigpetrov
[14:48] <ilyaigpetrov> JadedJ: cheers
[14:49] <ilyaigpetrov> JadedJ: so you solved your border size problem, didn't you?
[14:49] <JadedJ> Not yet
[14:52] <ilyaigpetrov> JadedJ: why don't you switch to 18.04.1?
[14:56] <JadedJ> Because I'm testing an application using 16.X
[14:57] <embden> Hello, I want to install lubuntu on my laptop with external monitor, will it work?
[15:11] <SchleimKeim> embden: sure, why not?
[15:11] <SchleimKeim> depends on your GPU i guess
[15:11] <SchleimKeim> but if it's a generic intel laptop GPU, i don't see why not.
[15:12] <embden> SchleimKeim: "LXQt treats all monitors as one when painting the desktop background. We plan on solving this in a more native way by the 19.04 release, but in the meantime, Lubuntu contributor Hans P. Möller has written a script which can be used as a workaround for treating all of the backgrounds differently."
[15:13] <embden> it's from release announcement
[15:13] <SchleimKeim> ok. how about you boot the live dvd and see if it works? :)
[15:13] <SchleimKeim>  /me is new to lubuntu
[15:14] <embden> SchleimKeim: thanks, maybe I'll try
[16:00] <ShellcatZero> Congrats on the LXQt release in 18.10!  When do such changes get pushed out to the 18.04 release?  Just curious.
[16:01] <wxl> lxqt to 18.04? never
[16:01] <wxl> i mean, the lxqt packages are there but they won't be part of lubuntu
[16:01] <wxl> and they're not as stable as the ones in 18.10
[16:02] <wxl> oh and at least some of the packages aren't available at all. i packaged trojita for teh first time in 18.10
[16:03] <ShellcatZero> I thought that eventually these get ported back to the LTS, no?
[16:03] <wxl> nope
[16:04] <ShellcatZero> wow, ok
[16:04] <wxl> the first lxqt lts will be 20.04
[16:06] <ShellcatZero> is it possible to add something like a LXQt ppa to 18.04 to keep up with the latest version?  I usually presume the latest version is the more stable one, would that be correct?
[16:07] <wxl> if you want lxqt, i'd do a fresh install of 18.10. even if we did have all the 18.10 versions available for 18.04, there would be a lot of work necessary to make it easy to swap between the two or replace one with the other
[16:07] <wxl> lubuntu is not the desktop environment. it's the desktop environment plus default settings and a variety of packages. ALL of those things changed between 18.04 and 18.10
[16:10] <ShellcatZero> hmm, got it, I'm thinking I might just go with 18.04 server and add a LXQt ppa to stay on the latest version
[16:10] <wxl> well, there isn't going to be one..........
[16:11] <ShellcatZero> ah, I thought I saw one, but it's really old, lol
[17:48] <sappheiros> wxl reinstalling from liveDVD was definitely the right choice -- i see now that in fact my previous attempt to upgrade was unfinished, so i basically was using a hybrid mix of 16.04 and 18.04 -- with the 16.04 display ... this new 18.04 is cleaner, looks in fact like ubuntu (rather than lubuntu)
[17:49] <wxl> sappheiros: 18.04 lubuntu pretty much looks like every lubuntu before it. you sure you didn't install ubuntu?
[17:50] <sappheiros> lol i give up
[17:50] <sappheiros> anyway, i'm happy i reinstalled the OS
[17:50] <sappheiros> well
[17:50] <wxl> ok
[17:50] <sappheiros> login splash screen does say 'lubuntu'
[17:50] <sappheiros> maybe my lubuntu installation was screwy from the beginning ...
[17:51] <wxl> if you didn't check the hashes, that's possible
[17:52] <sappheiros> why's it called LXTerminal instead of simply Terminal?
[17:52] <sappheiros> (i recall in ubuntu it's 'Terminal')
[17:52] <wxl> because... it's... part... of.. the... lxde.. project
[17:52] <wxl> just like lxpanel
[17:52] <wxl> and lx every other thing under the sun (except for pcmanfm and openbox)
[17:53] <sappheiros> so the 'LX' is basically decorative like "don't forget we built this"?
[17:53] <sappheiros> why isn't ubuntu's main release's terminal called 'UTerminal' then? :P
[17:53] <sappheiros> or ... i dunno
[17:54] <wxl> well there are a TON of terminal programs
[17:54] <wxl> let's imagine they were all titled "terminal"
[17:54] <wxl> and you installed more than one
[17:54] <wxl> how would you know which one is which?
 Ubuntu's main terminal is actually Gnome terminal, and Gnome has that weird habit of omitting the "Gnome" part.
 And KDE just looks for ways to fit a 'K' into the name, so they named their terminal "Konsole" :D
[18:03] <sappheiros> oh, thank you
[18:03] <sappheiros> how come marneu is talking through lubot instead of in channel?
[18:03] <wxl> telegram bridge
[18:03] <sappheiros> list of stuff i don't know about +1
[18:04] <sappheiros> i thought telegram was a smartphone app
[18:04] <wxl> it's a smartphone and desktop app
[18:04] <sappheiros> interesting
[18:04] <sappheiros> does that mean his connection's encrypted?
[18:04] <wxl> telegram does have encryption, yes
[18:04] <wxl> but that may not be the question you're asking
[18:06] <sappheiros> i can't figure out how to annotate in Document Viewer ...
[18:07] <sappheiros> clicking 'help' likewise didn't seem to do anything
[18:12] <sappheiros> Evince / Document Viewer seems too glitchy, annotations just don't work right
[18:13] <wxl> might be the particular pdf too
[18:15] <sappheiros> thanks for the reminder
[18:16] <sappheiros> trying to use default software, pidgin seems quite limited for IRC
[18:16] <wxl> sadly pdfs have a very particular specification but a lot of common pdf software creates pdfs that aren't valid according to that specification. of course, open source developers use that specification to create their software, so... blah
[18:16] <wxl> yeah. i know. i'd use irssi if i were you. irc belongs in text.
[18:17] <sappheiros> does http://ewtn.com/multimedia/live_player.asp?sat=radioe work for you? youtube is playing, but this radio stream is not
[18:17] <wxl> not on 18.04 right now
[18:20] <sappheiros> music.amazon.com is working
[18:20] <sappheiros> (thanks parents)
[18:20] <sappheiros> i guess it's an EWTN website problem
[18:21] <wxl> it probably needs to use flash XD
[18:21] <sappheiros> whelp, got my computer sorted, guess that means i need to get to work now ...
[18:23] <sappheiros> any advice regarding this terminal error?
[18:23] <sappheiros> > (/usr/lib/firefox/firefox:2834): dconf-WARNING **: 14:18:51.990: Unable to open /var/lib/menu-xdg/dconf/profile/user: Permission denied
[18:23] <sappheiros> i dunno what caused it
[18:24] <wxl> probably irrelevant
[18:24] <wxl> warnings usually are
[18:24] <wxl> errors are what you need to worry about
[18:25] <sappheiros> 'k thanks
[18:25] <wxl> smoe apps are particularly noisy
[18:25] <wxl> (most gtk apps for example)
[18:26] <sappheiros> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Keyboard internal server error
[18:26] <wxl> then that's a problem with the ubuntu servers, not a lubuntu problem
[18:26] <sappheiros> are you suggesting gtk apps are not well-built?
[18:26] <wxl> you can report that at #canonical-syadmin
[18:27] <wxl> but to be honest it's a common problem with the wiki :(
[18:27] <wxl> um i don't know if that makes them not well-built
[18:43] <sappheiros> d'you know a list of keyboard shortcuts?
[18:43] <sappheiros> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Keyboard is working again
[18:44] <sappheiros> isn't Supre key the windows key? it's not working ...
[18:45] <sappheiros> i just found lxhotkey
[18:46] <sappheiros> the list at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Keyboard is incorrect. how can i fix it?
[18:46] <sappheiros> e.g. Super+1 and Super+2 are incorrect
[18:46] <wxl> do you have a launchpad account?
[18:46] <sappheiros> yes
[18:46] <sappheiros> oh i see
[18:46] <sappheiros> thanks
[18:47] <embden> sappheiros: I also would like to propose to rename menu entries. Right now, there are entries with app names and when you place a mouse on top them you can see what it is. I think that it would be more comfortable to put app type like "Terminal" and make hint to be it's name like "qterminal" and maybe after some delay +short description. Because users look for an arnchiever not for Ark. I can even see a workarounds - PCManFMQt has an addition "File Manager
[18:47] <embden> ". Otherwise, users never find a file manager.
[18:48] <wxl> embden: you're talking about 18.10 and sappheiros 18.04. different.
[18:48] <embden> wxl: the problem still does exist.
 I have installed lubuntu 18.04 but i can't install other softwere for example if i type : ... Sudo apt-get install gparted  ... It doesn't work .the error is like at no connection but if i search something on web it works
[18:49] <wxl> embden: on lubuntu.
[18:49] <wxl> i mean 18.10
[18:49] <wxl> not 18.04
[18:49] <wxl> @Slider1 try `sudo apt update` first
[18:49] <wxl> if it's a fresh install, that's a thing
[18:49] <embden> wxl: I understand.
 @wxl [<wxl> @Slider1 try `sudo apt update` first], It's automatically update at 18.10 ,isn't it ?
[18:51] <sappheiros> > Your request to join Ubuntu Wiki Editors is awaiting approval.
[18:51] <wxl> let me fix that sappheiros
[18:51] <wxl> @Slider1 no. and you should ALWAYS update before doing anything with apt.
[18:51] <sappheiros> uh oh
[18:51] <sappheiros> all the desktops are showing the same apps in the taskbar :(
 @wxl [<wxl> @Slider1 no. and you should ALWAYS update before doing anything with apt.], Ok thanks i'll try it
[18:53] <sappheiros> don't see a way to change that in Desktop Preferences
[18:53] <wxl> taskbar settings i believe
[18:54] <sappheiros> don't see how to edit taskbar settings ...
[18:57] <sappheiros> found it
[18:57] <wxl> good cuz i had to remind myself whilst doing a bunch of other stuff and hadn't got to it yet XD
[18:57] <wxl> are you ~ubuntuuser1?
[19:26] <kalock> hi all, would like to switch to whisker menu from the default lubuntu menu, but i am not sure how to tell the system to use Whisker now that it is installed.  could anyone point me in the right direction?
[19:29] <wxl> kalock: on 18.04?
[19:33] <kalock> yes!
[19:33] <wxl> yeah. unfortunately, you probably won't be able to get it to work
[19:33] <wxl> the menu in lxpanel is an lxpanel plugin
[19:33] <wxl> similarly the whisker menu is an xfce(4?)panel plugin
[19:34] <wxl> so you could replace lxpanel with xfce(whatever)panel
[19:34] <kalock> ok, i think that is what i am needing to do.  is there config somewhere to switch that panel?
[19:36] <wxl> you'd have to install it first and then in lxsession default apps change the value of the panel/command
[19:36] <wxl> may need to tweak panel/session, too
[19:37] <kalock> i see, thanks.  maybe i'll just install xubuntu for this user to make it easier on them hehe
[19:37] <kalock> thank you
[19:37] <wxl> np
[19:49] <saptech> does lubuntu have their own forum?
[19:53] <teward> saptech: doesn't look like there's a *dedicated* forum, no.  https://lubuntu.me/links/ is all the available support mechanisms
[19:54] <saptech> ok, thanks
[19:58] <saptech> i was trying to read if people are having issues upgrading from the past current version to 18.10
[19:58] <saptech> I really like lxde but willing to try lxqt
[20:09] <wxl> it's not easy, saptech
[20:09] <wxl> did you read the release notes?
[20:15] <saptech> wxl, yes I read it and saw the link on upgrading...doesn't seem bad
 where's the keyboard mapping file?


[02:12] <m_3> bye baby
[02:13] <m_3> ok, wrong focus... sorry
[05:16] <dvestal> m_3 or hazmat: Earlier hazmat mentioned the exploration of the notion of co-locating service units in specification form.  Is that in reference to the upgrade, etc. documentation at https://ensemble.ubuntu.com/docs/ or are there other specs that I could find to see what's already been discussed about the topic?
[08:20] <kim0> Morning folks
[10:37] <hazmat> dvestal|away, re co-location not atm re docs
[13:34] <niemeyer> Hey Ensemblers
[13:34] <niemeyer> What are you Formulating today? :-)
[13:52] <m_3> niemeyer: morning
[13:52] <m_3> niemeyer: I'm debugging nfs this morning
[13:52] <hazmat> niemeyer, ensemble cli plugins and an ide
[13:53] <m_3> niemeyer: then planning on expanding node.js and starting on greenplum
[13:53] <niemeyer> hazmat, m_3: Mornings
[13:53] <niemeyer> m_3: Sweet
[13:53] <niemeyer> m_3: Wow :)
[13:54] <m_3> having a problem with empty endpoints in add-relation at the moment... probably just naming on my end
[13:54] <hazmat> m_3, awesome, which greenplum product out of curiosity?
[13:55] <m_3> hazmat: dunno... just popped on Mark's radar from conversations with Barclay's
[13:55] <m_3> hazmat: that's the first task... ping me with suggestions
[13:58] <niemeyer> m_3: What are you planning on node.js?
[13:58] <m_3> niemeyer: well I have a node.js "app" formula written
[13:59] <niemeyer> m_3: Interesting
[13:59] <m_3> but it doesn't do much other than deploy a noe.js app from a repo
[13:59] <niemeyer> m_3: What does it do to deploy the app?
[13:59] <hazmat> m_3, so greenplum has a couple different product lines, they focus on offering analytics w/ ides, on top of warehouse dbs, be it their own version of pg, hadoop, hive.. the latter is typically an ingestion into the former, they have a fairly sophisticated graphical toolchain that the target analyst market expects
[14:00] <hazmat> i saw a nice demo of it at a local hadoop meetup
[14:00] <m_3> niemeyer: just installs nodejs packages and then pulls a node.js test app from github
[14:00] <m_3> niemeyer: then spins it up
[14:01] <hazmat> niemeyer, m3 i imagine its the same pattern for any language app server deployment, vcs config details, entry points, url mounting, dependency management, and db and proxy options
[14:01] <m_3> hazmat: yup
[14:01] <niemeyer> hazmat: Kind of
[14:01] <niemeyer> hazmat: It's the same problem, for sure
[14:01] <m_3> next is to figure out how to bind a db service and make it available to the node app
[14:01] <niemeyer> hazmat: But I'm curious about how to leverage the environment we're offering
[14:01] <niemeyer> hazmat: How to connect dbs etc
[14:01] <m_3> there's a different option too that we should build
[14:02] <niemeyer> hazmat: We can literally offer a PaaS for people, without having one
[14:02] <hazmat> niemeyer, wsgi, rails, nodejs are pretty similiar aspects here, i think their different formulas, but really they have the same responsibilities and deploy patterns
[14:02] <m_3> a node.js _hosting_ service
[14:02] <m_3> similarly for rails
[14:03] <hazmat> niemeyer, sure, that's the rather the point of ensemble.
[14:03] <niemeyer> hazmat: Yep.. that's why I'm asking then.. how can we do more than simply "deploy code in a server" with a formula
[14:03] <m_3> nodejitsu has an open source framework for hosting node
[14:05] <m_3> I'll distinguish them by name for now
[14:05] <m_3> 'rails-app' -vs- 'rails'... similarly for node
[14:05] <hazmat> m_3, there are literally dozens of the platform specific paas options
[14:05] <hazmat> although not many are opensource
[14:06] <m_3> hazmat: yup
[14:06] <m_3> hazmat: again, please feel free to suggest priorities
[14:07] <m_3> as I understand, we need a base set of formulas
[14:07] <m_3> that just keeps building
[14:09] <hazmat> m_3, your priorities sound good (nodejs & greenplum), i'd like to see more scalable infrastructure components so glusterfs, cassandra, elasticsearch
[14:09] <m_3> hazmat: yeah, me too
[14:10] <m_3> hazmat: negronjl has cassandra working I think
[14:10] <hazmat> hadoop would be interesting to look at as well, especially  in comparison to the python whirr implementation (their project specific ec2 scripts).. the biggest missing thing i see there is better volume management
[14:11] <hazmat> yeah.. i should check out the  latest principia
[14:11] <m_3> db service binding was easy in railsapp, there's pretty much a set way to do it in the app
[14:11] <m_3> harder for node b/c it's a lot more unstructured
[14:11] <m_3> I'll pick _a_ way to show as an example
[14:11] <m_3> hadoop's in there too
[14:12] <m_3> hazmat: I'll check out whirr
[14:12] <hazmat> m_3, feel to have a formal entry point into the node app, like have a yaml file with this data
[14:13] <m_3> hazmat: right, one I'll have to structure
[14:13] <m_3> hazmat: maybe using mongo if the peer stuff's up
[14:14] <hazmat> m_3, sounds good, which reminds me i should push my mongo formulas
[14:14] <m_3> hazmat: yes please!
[14:15] <m_3> yeah, I'm bad about that... I need to push it all to lp
[14:15] <m_3> branch naming was preventing some of my pushes
[14:16] <m_3> (i.e., my misunderstanding of branch naming rqmts <grin>)
[14:16] <m_3> I'll rtfm
[14:17] <m_3> hazmat: what sort of IDE stuff were you talking about earlier?
[14:18] <hazmat> m_3, more of a web interface that would allow for interactive formula development with instrumentation
[14:18] <m_3> hazmat: nic
[14:19] <m_3> hazmat: I want blocks!  with wires between them!  <grin>
[14:19] <hazmat> m_3, i think we'll need cli and server plugins first, but the ide itself would likely come after some sort of rest api server
[14:19] <m_3> hazmat: gotcha
[14:19] <m_3> hazmat: sounds perfect
[14:19] <hazmat> m_3, mostly just brainstorming on ideas for the future, i think the cli-plugins are good  first start
[14:20] <m_3> hazmat: yes
[14:20] <m_3> hazmat: I was thinking something like a '--block' cli option would allow for formula testing
[14:21] <m_3> hazmat: right now it'd have to have sleeps put in which is... not ideal
[14:21] <m_3> but there're all sorts of cool cli ideas
[14:22] <m_3> love the graphviz status btw
[14:28] <m_3> dvestal: re your question from last night
[14:28] <m_3> dvestal: I think the orig idea in colocated services was to provide for 'aspects' like monitoring and log consolidation services to be colocated with a primary service
[14:29] <m_3> dvestal: think mysql with munin-node
[14:29] <m_3> dvestal: I'm looking for other 'specs', but I think the ensemble docs are primary atm
[14:30] <dvestal> m_3: Has there been any discussion on how to handle system configuration things outside of the "service" installation and configuration?
[14:30] <m_3> dvestal: there are lots of feature requests too (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ensemble)
[14:31] <m_3> dvestal: yes, lots... I'm not sure the current state of that though
[14:31] <dvestal> m_3: For example, I have all of my servers authenticating with ldap instead of just the base AWS ubuntu user auth.
[14:32] <alienpulse> kim0, there ?
[14:32] <m_3> dvestal: that one might actually work as a service though... "authentication service"
[14:32] <dvestal> m_3: I'll have to dig through the email list archives to try to catch up different things.
[14:32] <alienpulse> dvestal, m_3 help plz :)
[14:32] <niemeyer> dvestal: Oh, that's quite interesting actually
[14:33] <niemeyer> dvestal: We have a few different things in progress ATM
[14:33] <m_3> dvestal: there are things that don't fit as a "service"
[14:33] <niemeyer> dvestal: and this one looks like the concept we're pushing in terms of "co-located" formulas
[14:33] <m_3> alienpulse: what's up?
[14:33] <niemeyer> dvestal: The idea is that certain formulas will be able to be deployed within the same container as another formulas
[14:34] <niemeyer> another formula
[14:34] <niemeyer> dvestal: To allow tweaking the environment in a sensible way
[14:34] <niemeyer> dvestal: E.g. distributed logging, monitoring, etc
[14:34] <niemeyer> dvestal: It sounds like what you're trying to do is related to this as well
[14:34] <dvestal> niemeyer: Yeah.
[14:34] <alienpulse> m_3, hello..I'm new with every thing like im clueless ,,in Launchpad ,, i'v my own bug but i don't now how to add formula and nodes and etc on it
[14:35] <alienpulse> m_3, silly i know ,, but kim0 was my survivor in this kind of things
[14:35] <dvestal> niemeyer: I have several small things like that.  ldap auth is just the simplest to explain, and the most widely used.
[14:36] <niemeyer> dvestal: Ok, do you have another example, just to ensure we're on the same page?
[14:36] <m_3> alienpulse: no problem... wanna send me a url to the lp bug?
[14:36] <alienpulse> okay
[14:37] <alienpulse> m_3, https://bugs.launchpad.net/~abedeltawil
[14:38] <dvestal> niemeyer: <this is not answering your question yet> What I do now is a scripted snapshotting of a machine so that I have an ami to stand up a new machine from.
[14:38] <alienpulse> m_3, so how can i remove Admin links drupal .. ? and how to add a new project to start working on it  and from where
[14:39] <niemeyer> dvestal: Ok, this is a fairly common approach, but at the same time it's the kind of trick we're trying to obsolete with Ensemble
[14:39] <m_3> alienpulse: ah, I think I understand
[14:39] <alienpulse> m_3, please advice ..
[14:40] <dvestal> niemeyer:  Basically things like syslog -> mysql logging.  Auto-installation of wars into Tomcat and ears into Glassfish.
[14:40] <dvestal> niemeyer:  Yeah,  I don't like doing it this way... which is how I found Ensemble. :)
[14:41] <niemeyer> dvestal: These sound like good examples of co-located formulas
[14:42] <niemeyer> dvestal: The idea will be quite simple, actually: you'll be able to describe certain relations as co-located, and Ensemble will know that the related services have to live together
[14:42] <niemeyer> dvestal: They will still be normal relations, though
[14:42] <niemeyer> dvestal: So, e.g.
[14:42] <niemeyer> dvestal: Imagine a relation of type "tomcat-war"
[14:43] <niemeyer> dvestal: WIth colocation on
[14:43] <niemeyer> dvestal: Ensemble will put both of them in the same container, and will establish the relation
[14:43] <niemeyer> dvestal: When tomcat notices the relation was established on war-relation-joined,
[14:44] <niemeyer> dvestal: It does "relation-set war-directory=/path/to/wars"
[14:44] <niemeyer> dvestal: You see where this is going?
[14:49] <m_3> alienpulse: I can't remove the associated bug... just please ignore that as noise for now
[14:49] <m_3> alienpulse: have you started on the formula itself?
[14:49] <alienpulse> m_3, emm okay from where should i start if i wanna start a project for scratch
[14:50] <m_3> alienpulse: what I do to start is copy another formula
[14:51] <alienpulse> m_3, i'v my bug but i don't now what should i do next ! :/
[14:51] <m_3> alienpulse: I don't think there's a need to create a new launchpad project for a formula
[14:51] <m_3> alienpulse: so the first thing to do is get a working directory where your formula will reside
[14:51] <alienpulse> m_3, how that ?
[14:51] <alienpulse> how can i do that ?
[14:51] <m_3> alienpulse: what platform are you working on?
[14:52] <alienpulse> u mean my project ?
[14:52] <alienpulse> Drupal !
[14:52] <niemeyer> dvestal fainted with the explanations.. sorry! ;-)
[14:53] <m_3> alienpulse: the first thing we need to do is make a local repo for the formula
[14:53] <m_3> alienpulse: have you used bazaar before?
[14:53] <alienpulse> no :(
[14:54] <alienpulse> let say i made a local repo
[14:54] <alienpulse> should i upload it ,, right ,, but where on the launchpad should i upload ?
[14:55] <sladen> rumour has it via the grapevine that somebody has asking for input in doing an Ensemble Logo
[14:55] <sladen> who would be the best person who might know more details?
[14:55] <m_3> sladen: kim0 or jcastro maybe?
[14:56] <m_3> alienpulse: it's not bad... something like http://paste.ubuntu.com/639527/
[14:57] <jcastro> not me, I only sat in on the web meeting
[14:57] <sladen> jcastro: that's more than I did.  kim0: any knowledge?
[14:57] <alienpulse> m_3, and should i copy it and past it where !?
[14:58] <m_3> alienpulse: so the formula development will be done entirely on your machine
[14:58] <m_3> alienpulse: once you've gotten it going the way you like
[14:59] <m_3> alienpulse: you can push your repo up to launchpad
[14:59] <m_3> alienpulse: (can really push up at any time... the important point is that the development work is done on your local machine)
[15:00] <m_3> alienpulse: have you installed ensemble on your machine?
[15:01] <alienpulse> m_3, yeah sorry for that .
[15:02] <m_3> alienpulse: np
[15:04] <alienpulse> m_3, okay you where saying should the Formula development will be done on my laptop and with bzr is linked to my bug on launchpad ?
[15:05] <dvestal> niemeyer:  Sorry for the delayed response.  I had to run upstairs for breakfast with the kids.  Yeah, that's a good explanation.  I like where it's going too.
[15:05] <dvestal> ^ with the wife and kids...
[15:06] <niemeyer> dvestal: No worries, was just kidding.. I know how that works too :-)
[15:06] <m_3> alienpulse: yes, develop the formula first, then we can associate the repo you're using with the lp bug
[15:06] <niemeyer> dvestal: Nice, so if you have any ideas to suggest or any questions, just pop up and we'll be happy to talk/fix/implement :)
[15:09] <dvestal> niemeyer:  I definitely will.  This is something that I anticipate contributing to.  I'm sure that it will need to primarily be things that are specific needs of my company, but I talked to our owner about potentially working on this some as I am working toward automating our infrastructure and he seemed to be onboard with it.
[15:09] <m_3> dvestal: awesome!
[15:10] <kim0> ~>
[15:10] <kim0> that was a hung ssh :)
[15:16] <niemeyer> dvestal: That's great news indeed.. it's a good time to join in too, as you can help shaping the face of it to your needs
[15:16] <kim0> alienpulse: sorry my irc was hung .. so are starting on the drupal formula
[15:16] <kim0> alienpulse: did you read my formula writer's tutorial .. it should be easy to follow .. hey it's even for drupal too :)
[15:17] <alienpulse> kim0, no :( i want to did u blog it ?
[15:17] <alienpulse> ill read it from your blogs
[15:17]  * kim0 getting link
[15:17] <kim0> alienpulse: just this one https://ensemble.ubuntu.com/docs/write-formula.html
[15:19] <alienpulse> kim0, okay i was saying i dont know from where should i start ,, i dont want begin wrong ..
[15:20] <kim0> alienpulse: so basically, I'd start by reading that tutorial, and try to execute it step by step till you have drupal running on ec2
[15:20] <kim0> alienpulse: once it's running, you can start hacking on it
[15:20] <kim0> to make a real formula out of it
[15:20] <alienpulse> and then i upload it to launchpad ?
[15:21] <kim0> alienpulse: no need for that .. you can create the formula on localhost .. and use it to deploy ..
[15:21] <alienpulse> im almost done with reading the ensemble tutorial ..
[15:21] <kim0> alienpulse: putting it on LP .. is like the final step
[15:21] <alienpulse> kim0, aha
[15:21] <alienpulse> kim0, okay ,,im getting it all now
[15:22] <alienpulse> 1st step ..run drupal on ec2
[15:22] <koolhead11> okey guys i have filled  a bug finally dbconfig-common and phpmyadin
[15:22] <kim0> koolhead11: woohoo \o/
[15:22] <koolhead11> the preseed made me cry
[15:22] <alienpulse> 2nd step hacking it .. 3rd step create a formula on my machine ,, and finally ill upload it to LP
[15:22] <alienpulse> kim0, miss any thing ?!
[15:23] <kim0> let me rephrase .. this is how I would do it
[15:23] <kim0> 1- copy formula from tutorial into files
[15:23] <kim0> 2- run it as is, launch drupal on ec2 with it
[15:23] <kim0> 3- understand what is going on
[15:23] <kim0> 4- start changing the formula
[15:23] <kim0> 5- upload to launchpad, share your formula with the world
[15:24] <kim0> alienpulse: that's all
[15:24] <alienpulse> kim0, you're a bless from heaven !
[15:25] <kim0> alienpulse: You know what .. even easier .. I remember now I have pushed my drupal to LP
[15:25] <kim0> alienpulse: so you can skip step 1 ..  and instead do →  bzr branch lp:~kim0/+junk/drupal
[15:25] <alienpulse> kim0, okay
[15:27] <niemeyer> fwereade: Would you mind to review this merge proposal when you have a moment: https://code.launchpad.net/~hazmat/ensemble/hooks-with-formula-dir
[15:27] <fwereade> niemeyer: a pleasure
[15:27] <niemeyer> fwereade: Thanks!
[15:28] <kim0> sladen: o/
[15:29] <kim0> sladen: so yeah, a community member is interested in working on a logo+mascot for Ensemble
[15:29] <kim0> sladen: he does pencil concepts. He's starting to send me concepts drawings, but I'm really not made to judege these things :)
[15:30] <kim0> sladen: can I link you two up ? so you start hacking those graphics together /
[15:32]  * koolhead11 is allowed to ask dumb/stupid questions :P
[15:33] <niemeyer> hazmat: I don't think the env var should be yanked..  please see the latest comment there
[15:33] <sladen> kim0: -><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[15:33] <niemeyer> hazmat: Just pointing out here so you don't work on this before seeing the comment
[15:33] <niemeyer> koolhead11: Everyone is! ;_)
[15:33] <kim0> sladen: awesome .. linking :) thanks man
[15:34] <koolhead11> niemeyer, :)
[15:34] <hazmat> niemeyer, k, thanks
[15:36] <hazmat> niemeyer, could you clarify what you meant by [3]
[15:36] <niemeyer> hazmat: Just mentioning what is $CWD in the docs
[15:36] <niemeyer> hazmat: Next to the hooks themselves
[15:37] <hazmat> niemeyer, ah.. sounds good
[15:40] <fwereade> couple of questions about what directory we run in
[15:40] <fwereade> what makes the unit dir better than the formula dir?
[15:40] <fwereade> I haven't been able to see any serious distinction in this context but presumably there's some reason to prefer the unit dir
[15:42] <fwereade> hazmat, niemeyer: the docs currently say we run in the formula dir, but it seems we run in the unit dir
[15:42] <niemeyer> fwereade: I think we're using the formula dir?
[15:42] <hazmat> fwereade, it does run in the formula dir
[15:43] <hazmat> it just uses the unit dir as a base reference point
[15:43] <fwereade> hm, let me reread the code
[15:43] <fwereade> looked like it was using the unit dir
[15:44] <niemeyer> In fact, there's an important reason for it to be the formula dir now.. we'll soon have co-located formulas in the same unit dir
[15:44] <hazmat> fwereade, its at the bottom of invoker where it spawns the process, and there's a corresponding test
[15:45] <fwereade> hazmat: where it calls with "hook_proto, hook, [hook], env, self._unit_path)"?
[15:45] <fwereade> hazmat oh damn, wrong rev
[15:45] <hazmat> fwereade, are you on the right branch? latest rev is 262 of lp:~hazmat/ensemble/hooks-with-formula-dir
[15:45] <hazmat> cool
[15:45] <fwereade> forget I said anything
[15:46] <fwereade> :)
[15:48] <hazmat> niemeyer, the implementation of co-location will need to modify the impl as needed. the formula location will no longer just be /formula
[15:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: Right, that was my point
[16:07]  * niemeyer => lunch
[16:13] <kim0> alienpulse: just noticed m_3 did a drupal formula on https://code.launchpad.net/principia .. it's ok, you can still study how things work, then improve on Mark's formula
[16:14] <alienpulse> kim0, im working on your now ..
[16:14] <sladen> kim0: can you forward me the actual pencil sketches too
[16:14] <alienpulse> kim0, but thanks any way
[16:14] <kim0> alienpulse: yeah don't let that stop you .. you need to understand ensemble .. then you can hack any formula :)
[16:14] <kim0> sladen: yep .. getting em
[16:17] <kim0> sladen: emailed
[16:20] <hazmat> niemeyer, re formula upgrade and cleanup of files, its not quite read only.. but point taken.. if we assume namespacing in the future, fhs locations in the unit would need qualifications as a result, we can nominate a particular formula directory as inviolate by ensemble and suitable for variable storage (aka /var) or store the manifest at deploy time to compare to the delta, to just remove old formula files but not files created by the formula...
[16:32] <sladen> kim0: ta.  Do you have an full copy of the mailing message  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ensemble/2011-June/000199.html  available?
[16:32] <sladen> kim0: the one in the archive is missing the attachments
[16:35] <kim0> sladen: it was only links .. no attachments
[16:36] <kim0> sladen: I emailed you the links as well
[16:44] <sladen> kim0: nod
[16:45] <sladen> niemeyer: would you be able to follow-up to  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-branding/+bug/807100 ("Ensemble logo (ensemble.ubuntu.com)") with your breathing aperatus quote
[16:45] <_mup_> Bug #807100: Ensemble logo (ensemble.ubuntu.com) <ubuntu-branding:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/807100 >
[16:57] <niemeyer> sladen: Hey there
[16:57] <niemeyer> sladen: Sure, what's up?
[16:58] <niemeyer> hazmat: Yeah, storing old manifest + new manifest + diff and remove might be the most expected outcome
[16:58] <niemeyer> hazmat: I actually like a bit the var approach too
[16:58] <niemeyer> hazmat: Makes it easy to move things around
[16:58] <niemeyer> hazmat: I'm a bit concerned that people won't figure it out until too late
[17:07] <sladen> niemeyer: Ensemble logo tracking bug
[17:08] <sladen> niemeyer: I have a quote that kim0 forwarded me, but I'd rather if you attributed and added it yourself :-)
[17:13] <niemeyer> sladen: Done
[17:15] <niemeyer> Actually, there's another thread too
[17:18] <niemeyer> hazmat: Looks like a recent change has broken txzookeeper: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/74683481/buildlog.txt.gz
[17:22] <sladen> niemeyer: did you mean to copy and re-paste 80% of the content from the bug introduction back into the bug report :-)
[17:24] <hazmat> niemeyer, yeah.. i'm not sure what the issue is the changelog format looks fine
[17:25] <hazmat> niemeyer, is there a static check tool ala lintian for checking deb directories
[17:30] <alienpulse> kim0, how can i remove one of my affects !?
[17:30] <kim0> alienpulse: what do you mean by affects
[17:30] <alienpulse> kim0, i want to remove admin links Drupal module
[17:31] <kim0> alienpulse: don't install it ?
[17:31] <alienpulse> kim0, in my bug i just assigned by mistake :/
[17:31] <kim0> alienpulse: give me the bug url
[17:31] <alienpulse> kim0, https://bugs.launchpad.net/principia/+bug/805955
[17:31] <_mup_> Bug #805955: Formula needed: Drupal <new-formula> <Admin links Drupal module:New> <Principia Ensemble:In Progress by abedeltawil> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/805955 >
[17:32] <niemeyer> sladen: Sorry, I didn't notice you had already added one of the links
[17:33] <niemeyer> sladen: It's not clear to me how can I help there?
[17:33] <niemeyer> sladen: I've already commented on these graphics in the mailing list thread which I linked there
[17:33] <kim0> alienpulse: I just set it to invalid on that project .. probably good enough
[17:34] <niemeyer> sladen, kim0: What sort of action is the bug oriented towards?
[17:34] <alienpulse> kim0, emm okay thanks ..
[17:34] <niemeyer> hazmat: There is
[17:35] <niemeyer> Let me try to find the name
[17:35] <m_3> kim0, alienpulse: I tried to remove this morning with no luck
[17:36] <kim0> yeah, I'm no LP expert either :)
[17:36] <sladen> niemeyer: -> see your private message
[17:38] <sladen> niemeyer: tracking the logo.  I heard on the grape vine that somebody/something wanted help.  It's now documenteed in one place, with everything that has been said
[17:42] <niemeyer> hazmat: lintian - Debian package checker
[17:43] <niemeyer> hazmat: I suspect the date format might be the issue, but not sure
[17:43] <niemeyer> hazmat: date -R is the standard
[19:10]  * niemeyer playing with glance
[19:10] <niemeyer> fwereade: That may be our S3 service for next week ^
[19:36] <pindonga> SpamapS, you were working on the lxc branch for ensemble, right?
[19:56] <niemeyer> SpamapS: We should talk about the LXC work, actually
[19:56] <niemeyer> SpamapS: The first step is probably to put a specification in place detailing what we're going after
[19:56] <niemeyer> and the impact in the several areas
[19:58] <m_3> niemeyer: +1 for faster formula development/debugging
[20:18] <m_3> jcastro: can I the deck you used for your ensemble lightning talk?
[21:16] <adam_g> hazmat: ping
[22:16] <adam_g> is bootstrapping stock oneiric ec2 AMIs expected to work?
[22:23] <m_3> adam_g: I was wondering the same thing when pointing to a euca cloud
[22:24] <m_3> adam_g: I don't think so... think zk's gotta be there at least
[22:24] <m_3> adam_g: smoser helped SpamapS bundle up something minimal for lxc
[22:24] <m_3> adam_g: if he's around
[22:24] <adam_g> zk looks to be installed via cloud-init
[22:24] <adam_g> so does the rest of the bootstrapping
[22:25] <niemeyer> adam_g: I haven't tested this myself.. we've been using Natty images just because it makes it easier to have it on both sides
[22:25] <niemeyer> adam_g: That said, we should all switch to Oneiric now that we're packing it in 11.10
[22:25] <niemeyer> adam_g: and I can't see why it'd not owrk
[22:25] <adam_g> niemeyer: yeah.. i was using the default natty AMIs as well until the archive mirror in us-east-1 decided to fall over
[22:25] <niemeyer> wokr
[22:26] <adam_g> W: Failed to fetch bzip2:/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/us-east-1.ec2.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_natty-updates_universe_binary-i386_Packages  Hash Sum mismatch
[22:26] <niemeyer> Ugh
[22:37] <Ryan_Lane> howdy
[22:37] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: o/
[22:37] <kim0> niemeyer: o/
[22:37] <kim0> Ryan is from the mediawiki ops team
[22:38] <Ryan_Lane> kim0: so, ensemble seems like a really great way of pushing changes into an environment that isn't fully formed, and doesn't have something like chef/puppet
[22:38] <Ryan_Lane> but it doesn't address long term management of systems
[22:38] <kim0> MediaWiki has a staging cluster, and I was pinging Ryan to test whether we can get some interest to get them to use Ensemble .. Ryan has some questions which I thought we could better answer here
[22:38] <Ryan_Lane> the route we are going is to open our puppet repository to everyone
[22:39] <adam_g> niemeyer: the run_cmd script in cloud-init for bootstrap doesn't succeed on oneiric. and i cant see how it would work on natty, either. are the default AMIs launched by ensemble stock?
[22:39] <Ryan_Lane> and treat our ops like we treat mediawiki
[22:39] <kim0> SpamapS: hazmat m_3 your thoughts are all welcome
[22:39] <Ryan_Lane> with code review on the puppet manifests, files, and templates
[22:39] <Ryan_Lane> which will then let us directly deploy these changes to our production hardware cluster
[22:40] <Ryan_Lane> which isn't cloud based ;)
[22:40] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: let me try to answer the points you've raised
[22:40] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: so Ensemble is not really about cloud only
[22:40] <Ryan_Lane> lemme bring up the docs so that I can refresh my knowledge of it
[22:40] <kim0> drivers are being written today to support deploying to LXC containers, as well as hardware machinse and ofcourse openstack private clouds among others
[22:40] <kim0> ec2 was just the fastest way to get started
[22:41] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: regarding the first concern, Ensemble operates at a higher level that puppet or chef
[22:41] <kim0> in the sense that it operates at a "service" level
[22:41] <kim0> for configuration file management .. you _could_ still use puppet if you really wanted to
[22:41] <kim0> or you could use something else
[22:42] <kim0> Ensemble is well suited to long term management of instances
[22:42] <kim0> it simply focuses more on the concept of deployable "services" over machines
[22:42] <kim0> umm .. regarding sharing your deployment recipes with the world
[22:43] <kim0> that is exactly what we're after
[22:43] <Ryan_Lane> yeah. I'm not concerned about that part
[22:43] <kim0> We're creating the principia project
[22:43] <kim0> which should cover hopefully all FOSS soon :)
[22:44] <kim0> if you have some more questions or exact use cases .. I'd love to hear them as well
[22:44] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: the thing that really closed ensemble for me was the relationships
[22:44] <Ryan_Lane> so run me through a basic idea of installing a new mediawiki instance inside of an already configured mediawiki cluster
[22:44] <kim0> ofc Ensemble is rapidly evolving .. if there's a use case we don't currently support .. things can definitely be tuned
[22:45] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: ensemble provides events when service relationships are changed
[22:45] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: take a look at the mediawiki formula hook for db-relation-joined (maybe db-relation-changed)
[22:45] <Ryan_Lane> puppet/chef does the same
[22:45] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: the way the events go out it allows for _really_ easy horiz scaling
[22:46] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: is the rest of the cluster under ensemble management ?
[22:46] <Ryan_Lane> let's assume I have a memcached cluster, an apache cluster, a database cluster, a squid cluster, a varnish cluster (for bits), a swift cluster (for media), how will ensemble create just a wiki in that?
[22:46] <Ryan_Lane> without deploying new nodes
[22:47] <Ryan_Lane> or avoiding too much complexity...
[22:47] <Ryan_Lane> an apache cluster, and a database cluster
[22:47] <kim0> are you saying those resources are not under Ensemble's management, or are they
[22:47] <Ryan_Lane> I get the idea of adding new nodes to the cluster, that's easy enough :)
[22:47] <Ryan_Lane> under ensemble
[22:48] <kim0> Very well
[22:48] <Ryan_Lane> created via the screencast example
[22:48] <kim0> m_3: care to explain how that works :)
[22:48] <Ryan_Lane> (this is a specific use case that I need, and don't have a solution for yet)
[22:49] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: Would deploying a service inside a new LXC container be acceptable for this use case ?
[22:49] <Ryan_Lane> no
[22:49] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: yup, creating a pastebin of the hooks we have implemented for mediawiki
[22:49] <Ryan_Lane> it can't add new instances
[22:49] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: so here's the metatdata.yaml file for the formula http://pastebin.com/h8HYzfQ5
[22:50] <m_3> you can see the attachment with mysql, memcache, munin, and the "website" relation
[22:50]  * Ryan_Lane nods
[22:51] <m_3> the "Website" relation can be directly accessed or consumed in a relation with a reverseproxy
[22:51] <m_3> or load balancer
[22:51] <Ryan_Lane> what's the benefit over puppet?
[22:51] <m_3> so there are hooks created for each relation
[22:51] <Ryan_Lane> (or chef)
[22:51] <m_3> longer question to answer... lots on the topic though
[22:51] <m_3> lemme get you a list of the hooks here
[22:52] <m_3> http://pastebin.com/aL36P6A5
[22:52] <m_3> the basic workflow is as follows
[22:52] <kim0> Most people find it an eye openeronce they take some time to understand how Ensemble formulas work under the hood
[22:53]  * kim0 makes way for m_3
[22:53] <m_3> http://pastebin.com/i2CPibe1
[22:53] <m_3> kim0: please participate <grin>
[22:54] <m_3> the magic happens in the relation
[22:54] <kim0> :)
[22:54] <m_3> the fact that this is the db relation is just an example
[22:54] <m_3> you'd do the same for memcache, reverseproxy, etc
[22:54] <m_3> so your "stack" would be more complicated than just the script I pasted
[22:54] <m_3> but not _much_ more complicated
[22:55] <m_3> the way the service relation events are fired
[22:55] <m_3> and organized
[22:55] <kim0> I think a main benefit, is that Ensemble is a living system. You are no longer thinking on the level of machines and config files. You're thinking in terms of intelligent "services" that know how to respond to the surrounding environment
[22:55] <m_3> allows you to scale horiz by just 'ensemble add-unit mediawiki'
[22:55] <m_3> rinse and repeat
[22:55] <kim0> and configure themselves, consuming other services, and offering their service to other nodes
[22:56] <m_3> the existing relations between mediawiki and the handful of other services are automatically fired for each new mediawiki unit
[22:56] <kim0> that simplicity of scaling, is a direct result of the fact that services embed the intelligence and know how to react to events
[22:56] <adam_g> Ryan_Lane: to answer your question. AFAIK: as it stands right now, when you deploy a new service via ensemble, you're deploying a new instance to host that service. it takes an elastic, cloudy POV that instances are expendable containers of services that will come and go throughout the lifecycle of the service as a whole
[22:57] <Ryan_Lane> if I change a service, do the current instances update to reflect that?
[22:57] <m_3> we're working on colocated services within an instance
[22:57] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: that's formula version
[22:57] <m_3> there's upgrade-formula
[22:57] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: yes, you can upgrade formulas on the fly
[22:57] <m_3> and the ability to do rolling upgrades
[22:57] <m_3> issues to be worked out here though!
[22:57] <Ryan_Lane> heh
[22:57] <Ryan_Lane> so, when upgrading instances, is there some group-based update process?
[22:58] <m_3> rolling upgrades mean different things to different apps, so that's still in dev/testing
[22:58] <Ryan_Lane> or do you need to do it per node?
[22:58] <m_3> lemme show you status output
[22:58] <m_3> you can address individual service units (instances)
[22:59] <m_3> but I'm not sure in a upgrade-formula scenario what the options are
[22:59] <m_3> (just started working on it a couple of weeks ago)
[22:59] <Ryan_Lane> our staging environment should reflect our production environment as much as possible.
[23:00] <Ryan_Lane> including how we do ops
[23:00] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: understood
[23:00] <kim0> again Ensemble is rapidly evolving, so it can adapt to needs
[23:00] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: always particularly fun with a cms!  <grin>
[23:00] <Ryan_Lane> on our production environment, we may have one box doing a couple things
[23:00] <Ryan_Lane> our software is deployed separately from our os related thingd
[23:00] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: and it's also a good ground for experimenting with future ops technology stacks right
[23:01] <Ryan_Lane> yeah. if you guys would like to work in the environment, we can do that
[23:01] <m_3> Ryan_Lane: I'd love to talk maybe higher bandwidth or look at docs to learn more about your infra
[23:01] <Ryan_Lane> for instance, I can give you guys a project where you can try to model our production environment in ensemble
[23:01] <m_3> yup
[23:01] <kim0> I think that would be very good
[23:01] <Ryan_Lane> I think that would be great for both of us
[23:01]  * kim0 nods
[23:02] <Ryan_Lane> I like some of the concepts, but it would be very difficult for us to use it now
[23:02] <m_3> gotta run... giving my first ensemble demo at a local LUG
[23:02] <m_3> nice to meet you Ryan!
[23:02] <Ryan_Lane> m_3: you too
[23:02] <kim0> m_3: thanks for the help
[23:02] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: Awesome .. we'll both learn a lot by working on this excercise
[23:02] <Ryan_Lane> it would be great to see you guys make a similar environment to ours, and show us how we could use it
[23:03] <Ryan_Lane> and we can work with you guys to show where things are going to run into problems
[23:03] <kim0> that will surely be needed
[23:03] <kim0> great stuff
[23:03] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: so how do you suggest we get started
[23:04] <Ryan_Lane> well, I don't have the cluster fully up yet
[23:04] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: it's openstack right ?
[23:04] <Ryan_Lane> also, there's a couple things that I'll likely need to add to openstack for this to properly integrate
[23:04] <Ryan_Lane> I think someone is working on it right now
[23:05] <Ryan_Lane> the mediawiki extension I wrote adds DNS entries in LDAP when instances are created
[23:05] <Ryan_Lane> openstack doesn't have support for adding DNS entries right now
[23:05] <Ryan_Lane> for ensemble to work properly, it needs that ;)
[23:06] <kim0> well I'm sure we can beat any technical issues together :)
[23:06] <Ryan_Lane> yeah
[23:06] <Ryan_Lane> hmm
[23:06] <kim0> perhaps we could even do the work on ec2 for now
[23:06] <Ryan_Lane> I may actually be able to give you guys access earlier than others, since you don't need the puppet stuff working
[23:06] <kim0> since that's the most mature provider
[23:06] <m_3> exit
[23:06] <kim0> :)
[23:06] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: yeah we don't
[23:06] <m_3> sorry, wrong focus... doh
[23:07] <kim0> hehe
[23:07] <Ryan_Lane> could start, on ec2, yeah. would be good to move you guys over as soon as possible though
[23:07] <kim0> openstack exposes the ec2 api as well, so it should just work
[23:07] <Ryan_Lane> yeah. I'm using ec2 api in my extension too
[23:07] <Ryan_Lane> you guys will just need the DNS stuff.
[23:08] <kim0> might take some hammering .. but that's what we're good at :)
[23:08] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: so you'll give us access to the cluster, how will we know how your current infrastructure needs to be modelled ?
[23:08] <kim0> like more info on what needs to be done
[23:08] <Ryan_Lane> that's the hard part :)
[23:08] <kim0> :)
[23:09] <Ryan_Lane> that may be something you need the puppet repo for
[23:09] <Ryan_Lane> we have a lot of documentation on wikitech.wikimedia.org
[23:09] <Ryan_Lane> but it's not a step-by-step guide
[23:09] <Ryan_Lane> we also have configuration files at noc.wikimedia.org
[23:10] <Ryan_Lane> for mediawiki/apache
[23:10] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: In the mediawiki community, would there be ops volunteers interested in helping us get this working ?
[23:10] <Ryan_Lane> hmm. maybe.
[23:10] <kim0> Cool .. we'll need to broadcast some messages then
[23:11] <Ryan_Lane> we are light on ops volunteers. that's one of my goals of the labs project :)
[23:11] <kim0> hehe yeah I know
[23:11] <kim0> very well
[23:11] <Ryan_Lane> I can talk to you guys about stuff as you work on it
[23:11] <Ryan_Lane> I can give you an overview of how it works
[23:11] <Ryan_Lane> you guys located in US? in SF?
[23:12] <kim0> we're everywhere
[23:12] <kim0> :)
[23:12] <Ryan_Lane> heh
[23:12] <Ryan_Lane> yeah. us too
[23:12] <kim0> some should be close to that .. just no idea who
[23:12] <Ryan_Lane> we are going to be doing a hack-a-thon in New Orleans at some point soon
[23:12] <Ryan_Lane> it'll be labs focused
[23:12] <Ryan_Lane> so that would be a great time to work together if you guys are interested and can come
[23:13] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: I think it would be beneficial to have you on the Ensemble mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ensemble
[23:13] <Ryan_Lane> otherwise, I can work with you guys online
[23:13] <kim0> sure the hack-athon thing can work too
[23:13] <kim0> I think I'll be sending a summary of this talk to the list, and it would be great to have you over commenting on how to move forward ..etc
[23:14] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: sounds like a plan ?
[23:14] <Ryan_Lane> yeah. sounds good
[23:14] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: Great! thanks a lot Ryan .. I really appreciate your time
[23:15] <Ryan_Lane> you're welcome. I look forward to working on this with you guys :)
[23:15] <kim0> Awesome, I am very excited as well :)
[23:15] <kim0> We all think Ensemble is bringing a big change, and it rocks to be part of it
[23:15] <kim0> woohoo \o/
[23:16] <kim0> Okie .. it's getting too late for me now, so I'll catch you guys later
[23:16] <Ryan_Lane> kim0: later
[23:16] <kim0> Ryan_Lane: see ya
[23:20] <_mup_> Bug #807281 was filed: Cannot bootstrap stock ubuntu AMIs <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/807281 >
[23:59] <hazmat> adam_g, not till the sans-ami branch lands, and then it ensemble will work with any cloud-init enabled image ( although we might be dependent on a 10.10 version of cloud-init)


[00:23] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed-azure [amd64] (trusty-proposed/main) [4.15.0-1023.24~14.04.1] (kernel)
[05:34] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed-azure [amd64] (trusty-proposed) [4.15.0-1023.24~14.04.1]
[07:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New sync: r-cran-rdflib (cosmic-proposed/primary) [0.1.0+dfsg-1]
[09:27] <xnox> tsimonq2, oooh oooh. if there are flakey results, i want to look at them.
[09:30] <xnox> cking, there appears to be a sysfs ubuntu_stress_smoke_test.stress-smoke-test failure on s390x
[09:31] <xnox> is it known? should it be skipped / XFAILED on s390x?
[09:31] <xnox> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VYfR9StC5Y/ is the relevant bit
[09:32] <cking> xnox, it's an on-going issue, I'm working on that at the moment, so let's skip that for now
[09:33] <xnox> cking, thank you!
[09:34] <xnox> oooooh i think there are bad logs cloning things
[09:38] <cking> xnox, can you remind me what kernel that was with, I want to check if it matches what I think should be happening with that test on s390x
[09:39] <xnox> cjwatson, does https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/QJXJyYQZCF/ looks at all plausible match for the twisted bug you mentioned the other day? However based on timestamps it looks like it just hang there for half an hour; and it's totally legit to kill half an hour connections..... I wonder if git.launchpad.net can be bypassed in squid.internal, if that matters at all.
[09:41] <xnox> cking, that would be 4.18.0-7-generic what's currently in cosmic-release
[09:41] <cking> xnox, ah, that's good, phew, that's what I expected
[09:50] <cjwatson> xnox: Shortly after I mentioned that Twisted bug, I mentioned that I thought it was a red herring.
[09:50] <cjwatson> xnox: It's possible that it was the clone using a lot of memory on the server end and being slow / getting killed.  We had some problems with that recently.
[09:51] <xnox> cjwatson, ack, thanks. sorry i missed previous red herring.
[09:51] <cjwatson> xnox: While it's possible the squid matters somehow, it doesn't seem very likely to me.
[09:51] <xnox> well, this clone should not take 25min, even across the ocean. and most of the time it doesn't. it feels like something somewhere is keeping the connection open, with actual pack request lost.
[09:52] <xnox> with the connection eventually closed.
[09:52] <xnox> cjwatson, can we somehow trace logs on cloning that repo from lp, on the other end? =)
[09:53] <cjwatson> What timezone are those logs in?
[09:53] <cjwatson> They have a stupid time format so I don't want to assume UTC.
[09:54] <xnox> cjwatson, let me correlate those with what i know to be UTC
[09:57] <cjwatson> Ah, found it
[09:57] <xnox> end time 2018-09-10 03:21:35 UTC, duration 2h 28m 42s; approximate start time 2018-09-10 00:52:51 UTC - that's for all of the tests, let me narrow down the window when this clone was started
[09:57] <cjwatson> At that time there was a problem with the backend
[09:57] <cjwatson> 2018-09-10 02:25:29+0000 [Uninitialized] Backend connection failed
[09:57] <cjwatson>         Traceback (most recent call last):
[09:57] <cjwatson>         Failure: twisted.internet.error.ConnectionRefusedError: Connection was refused by other side: 111: Connection refused.
[09:58] <cjwatson> Logs are full of that sort of thing, so everything would've been failing
[09:58] <xnox> everything is terrible =))))) oh well
[10:00] <cjwatson> And stuff like this from the backend:
[10:00] <cjwatson> 2018-09-10 02:25:29+0000 [-] [request-id=898f6e33-d3eb-47c2-bc4c-001540cb3865] [PackBackendProtocol] Connection lost.
[10:00] <cjwatson>         Traceback (most recent call last):
[10:00] <cjwatson>         Failure: twisted.internet.error.ConnectionLost: Connection to the other side was lost in a non-clean fashion.
[10:00] <cjwatson> Where the "connection" is a Twisted-ish way of saying "pipe to git child process"
[10:01] <xnox> thank you for translating =)
[10:01] <cjwatson> I think this is just a scaling problem
[10:01]  * xnox never did twisted
[10:01] <cjwatson> Unfortunately the git backend is not very scalable right now
[10:01] <cjwatson> I already proposed a session for my team in Brussels to work out what we need to do to fix that
[10:01] <cjwatson> So this is ammunition
[10:02] <xnox> i can actually dig into these at http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/linux/cosmic/s390x but most of "x fail" are git clone from launchpad fail, if there is at least one green pass for a given version number.
[10:02] <xnox> not all, but roughly half.
[10:02] <xnox> hence for like the lifetime of bionic we had s390x blacklisted.
[10:03] <cjwatson> It doesn't surprise me that kernel clones would be particularly likely to hit problems
[10:03] <xnox> cjwatson, but lp uses git binary right? it doesn't use anything custom like dulwich? i believe github uses libgit2.
[10:03] <xnox> apw, cking - i wonder; if git clone of the linux tree fails, if we should be falling back on `pull-lp-source`
[10:04] <cjwatson> The backend is the git binary, yes
[10:04] <xnox> ack
[10:04] <cjwatson> Though libgit2 is involved at other levels, mainly for the internal API
[10:05] <cjwatson> git protocol traffic is passed through various layers of custom Twisted-based code, but the actual upload-pack / receive-pack protocol is handled by the git binary
[10:06] <apw> xnox, why am i cloning the git repo ?
[10:06] <apw> this seems like a strange thing to be doing, unless i need something big to mangle
[10:07] <cjwatson> Yeah, pull-lp-source would also be weird considering that autopkgtest *already gives you the source*
[10:07] <xnox> apw, to call $ make to compile all the self-tests which are in the linux source tree.... despite being in the linux kernel source tree as provided by autopkgtest already
[10:07] <apw> xnox, so it sounds like the correct fix is to add some kind of 'detect you already have the kernel source'
[10:07] <xnox> apw, and for some reason, it is done from a git clone of the .../cosmic repo, master branch, rather than what is already unpacked. maybe that's simply how the tests got ported onto autopkgtest.
[10:08] <apw> xnox, well one advantage of that is we can 'fix' tests without uploading things
[10:08] <xnox> apw, that would be easy to do, there are environment variables that tell you that. Shall I write that up in the bug report to improve the "setup" stage?
[10:08] <apw> xnox, yes please
[10:08] <xnox> cjwatson, do you use the v2 protocol stuff in git? https://opensource.googleblog.com/2018/05/introducing-git-protocol-version-2.html
[10:09] <xnox> somehow it's "better"
[10:09] <cjwatson> not yet, no
[10:09] <cjwatson> but the scaling problems are mostly memory not bandwidth atm; I don't know whether the new protocol does much about that
[10:10] <xnox> i wonder if the fact that we try to do shallow clones here with --depth 1 is actually causing more memory problems here, instead of cloning the full master branch, or even the full repo.
[10:21] <cjwatson> I've added a Trello card for the bits I think we need to do to support v2
[10:51] <jbicha> please remove sysprof/s390x/cosmic, it only built because the previous version ignored build tests failures
[10:52] <sil2100> slangasek, infinity: hey! Would be nice if you announced somewhere that some non-release people have been delegated to approve Kubuntu FFe's - I almost switched the plasma one back from 'Triaged' since I thought this is some kind of a illegal activity ;)
[10:53] <apw> sil2100, i assume it was approved by one of the project leads for kubuntu
[10:53] <apw> those are documented somewhere arn't they ?
[10:54] <sil2100> apw: well, yes, but I guess FFe's normally are only to be approved by ubuntu-release members, not flavour release members from what I know
[10:55] <Laney> indeed
[10:55] <apw> sil2100, i was under the impression that things in the flavour seed, and not on other images were their responsibility
[10:55] <apw> but as there is confusion i defer to infinity
[11:00] <sil2100> Anyway, I'm all good about anything as long as it's made visible to the other release members
[11:02] <sil2100> If not for Laney I wouldn't have known about this
[11:02] <sil2100> And I'd just cause unnecessary trouble
[11:24] <tsimonq2> sil2100: See the IRC discussion from yesterday.
[11:25] <tsimonq2> I proposed it but they determined an announcement to be not necessary.
[11:26] <tsimonq2> I was only given the go-ahead (with Rik) to approve Kubuntu FFEs; Lubuntu FFEs still need Release Team approval. :P
[11:45] <sil2100> tsimonq2: strange decision not to announce, could cause some small chaos by accident
[11:45] <sil2100> tsimonq2: as for Lubuntu, please update the bug description to include what I requested ;p
[11:48] <tsimonq2> sil2100: My backlog is getting very large these days. :P
[11:48] <tsimonq2> sil2100: So, "when I can."
[12:05] <sil2100> tsimonq2: ok! ;)
[12:24] <tsimonq2> sil2100: I just updated the FFe docs; feel free to peer review.
[12:24] <tsimonq2> I'll do that Lubuntu bug next. ;)
[12:25] <tsimonq2> (w.u.c/FreezeExceptionProcess)
[12:26] <tsimonq2> infinity, slangasek: ^
[12:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: adobe-flashplugin (bionic-proposed/partner) [1:20180814.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 1:20180911.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (no packageset)
[12:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: adobe-flashplugin (xenial-proposed/partner) [1:20180814.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 1:20180911.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (no packageset)
[12:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: adobe-flashplugin (trusty-proposed/partner) [1:20180814.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> => 1:20180911.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (no packageset)
[12:54] <chrisccoulson> hi, could somebody please approve the adobe-flashplugin partner uploads for trusty -> bionic? (and also be around to copy them to the release pocket once they're ready)
[12:54] <chrisccoulson> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration#Handling_updates_to_partner
[13:15] <apw> chrisccoulson, ok
[13:17] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: open-iscsi (bionic-proposed/main) [2.0.874-5ubuntu2.1 => 2.0.874-5ubuntu2.2] (ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-server)
[13:19] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted adobe-flashplugin [source] (bionic-proposed) [1:20180911.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[13:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted adobe-flashplugin [source] (xenial-proposed) [1:20180911.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[13:22] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted adobe-flashplugin [source] (trusty-proposed) [1:20180911.1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>]
[13:23] <apw> chrisccoulson, ^
[13:24] <chrisccoulson> apw, awesome, thanks!
[13:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: fwupd (cosmic-proposed/main) [1.1.2-1 => 1.1.2-1] (desktop-core)
[13:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: fwupd (cosmic-proposed/main) [1.1.2-1 => 1.1.2-1] (desktop-core)
[13:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: fwupd (cosmic-proposed/main) [1.1.2-1 => 1.1.2-1] (desktop-core)
[13:53] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: nvidia-graphics-drivers-340 (bionic-proposed/restricted) [340.106-0ubuntu3 => 340.107-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (ubuntu-desktop)
[13:55] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: fwupd (cosmic-proposed/main) [1.1.2-1 => 1.1.2-1] (desktop-core)
[16:20] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: octave [s390x] (cosmic-proposed/universe) [4.4.1-1] (no packageset)
[16:32] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: octave [ppc64el] (cosmic-proposed/universe) [4.4.1-1] (no packageset)
[16:34] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New source: vulkan-loader (cosmic-proposed/primary) [<IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu1]
[16:49] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: ostree (bionic-proposed/universe) [2018.4-2 => 2018.8-0ubuntu0.1] (ubuntugnome)
[16:52] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: flatpak (bionic-proposed/universe) [0.11.7-0ubuntu0.1 => 1.0.1-0ubuntu0.1] (ubuntugnome)
[17:04] <slangasek> LocutusOfBorg: er, you have 10 ppa builds of llvm-toolchain-7 going, in a ppa for which the source has apparently been un-published?
[17:06] <slangasek> including 7 for superseded versions, which I am now cancelling
[17:35] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: octave [armhf] (cosmic-proposed/universe) [4.4.1-1] (no packageset)
[17:41] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: octave [arm64] (cosmic-proposed/universe) [4.4.1-1] (no packageset)
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gdcm [amd64] (cosmic-proposed) [2.8.7-2ubuntu1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gdcm [ppc64el] (cosmic-proposed) [2.8.7-2ubuntu1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted octave [arm64] (cosmic-proposed) [4.4.1-1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted octave [ppc64el] (cosmic-proposed) [4.4.1-1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted r-cran-kmi [sync] (cosmic-proposed) [0.5.4-1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted r-cran-rdflib [sync] (cosmic-proposed) [0.1.0+dfsg-1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gdcm [i386] (cosmic-proposed) [2.8.7-2ubuntu1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted octave [armhf] (cosmic-proposed) [4.4.1-1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted r-cran-mitools [sync] (cosmic-proposed) [2.3-1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted gdcm [s390x] (cosmic-proposed) [2.8.7-2ubuntu1]
[17:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted octave [s390x] (cosmic-proposed) [4.4.1-1]
[17:51] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: r-cran-mitools [amd64] (cosmic-proposed/none) [2.3-1] (no packageset)
[19:05] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: fwupd (bionic-proposed/main) [1.0.6-2 => 1.0.9-0ubuntu1] (desktop-core)
[19:46] <tsimonq2> slangasek: Thanks for ruby-compass.
[19:48] <tsimonq2> slangasek: thepeg can probably go too.
[20:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New sync: r-cran-redland (cosmic-proposed/primary) [1.0.17-9-1]
[21:23] <acheronuk> slangasek: I assume 'all-proposed' retries on amd64/ppc64el being unable to install a kernel again is due to linux-signed FTBFS?
[21:25] <slangasek> acheronuk: linux-signed FTBFS would certainly trigger it. what series are we talking here?
[21:25] <acheronuk> slangasek: cosmic linux-signed (4.18.0-7.8 to 4.18.0-8.9)
[21:58] <slangasek> acheronuk: ok. accepting the UEFI binaries now so that we can get that unstuck
[21:59] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted fwupd [amd64] (cosmic-proposed) [1.1.2-1]
[21:59] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted fwupd [armhf] (cosmic-proposed) [1.1.2-1]
[21:59] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted fwupd [arm64] (cosmic-proposed) [1.1.2-1]
[21:59] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted fwupd [i386] (cosmic-proposed) [1.1.2-1]
[22:20] <acheronuk> slangasek: thank you :)
[22:46] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted shim [sync] (xenial-proposed) [15+1533136590.3beb971-0ubuntu1]
[22:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: accepted shim-signed [source] (xenial-proposed) [1.33.1~16.04.2]
[22:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [ppc64el] (cosmic-proposed/main) [4.18.0-8.9] (core, kernel)
[22:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New binary: linux-signed [amd64] (cosmic-proposed/main) [4.18.0-8.9] (core, kernel)
[22:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [amd64] (cosmic-proposed) [4.18.0-8.9]
[22:56] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New: accepted linux-signed [ppc64el] (cosmic-proposed) [4.18.0-8.9]
[23:05] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- Unapproved: plymouth (bionic-proposed/main) [0.9.3-1ubuntu7 => 0.9.3-1ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>] (core)
[23:19] -queuebot:#ubuntu-release- New sync: ufolib2 (cosmic-proposed/primary) [0.1.3-1]