[00:17] <snap-l> brousch: Yeah, we've all moved to pycharm
[00:18] <snap-l> autocomplete FTW
[12:18] <snap-l> G'morning
[12:20] <rick_h> morn
[12:56] <Wolfger> Happy Friday
[12:57] <Wolfger> don't forget Penguicon "bring a friend" party tonight. With free-as-in-beer beer (I think)
[12:57] <brousch> eh?
[12:58] <mydogsnameisrudy> there's a party going on somewhere?
[12:59] <Wolfger> Dearborn
[12:59] <mydogsnameisrudy> oh heh to far
[12:59] <Wolfger> Penguicon is hosting a party at the hotel where the convention will be this year.
[13:00] <Wolfger> It's specifically aimed at getting people who haven't been to Penguicon to come out and get an idea what it's like.
[13:00] <Wolfger> So brousch, get out there and check it out :-)
[13:00] <brousch> too scary
[13:01] <brousch> http://www.penguicon.org/CMS/?page_id=216
[13:01] <brousch> About: 404
[13:04] <brousch> the about page should just redirect to the rules page
[13:05] <mydogsnameisrudy> hmm this party mostly programers?
[13:06] <brousch> i get the impression it's mostly wackos
[13:07] <mydogsnameisrudy> hmmm drag show lol
[13:07] <mydogsnameisrudy> yep i c
[13:17] <Wolfger> I resent being called a wacko
[13:19] <Wolfger> You will find virtually any (and every) flavor of geek at P-con
[13:19] <Wolfger> some of them are even too strange for me...
[13:19] <brousch> Wolfger: mostly wackos, you might fall into the non-wacko segment. might
[13:19] <Wolfger> doubt it :-)
[13:19] <brousch> not that there's anything wrong with that
[13:20] <Wolfger> I fly my freak flag(s) proudly
[13:20] <brousch> i heartily support your right to be a wacko
[13:21] <Wolfger> what about a Yakko or a Dot?
[13:21] <Wolfger> or Pinky and the Brain?
[13:21] <brousch> oh wow, the BBB sent me an urgent notice using my own email address. i'd better jump right on this
[13:22] <Wolfger> lol
[13:23] <brousch> omg. someone is complaining about their dealership with me
[13:25] <Wolfger> Something about the phrase "multiple life sentences" just screams "your legal system is completely FUBAR"
[13:29] <brousch> seems like one life sentence should be sufficient
[13:29] <Wolfger> you would think
[13:30] <brousch> is it just me, or do the "oldies" on this list seem overpriced? http://shop.oreilly.com/category/deals/oldies-but-goodies.do?imm_mid=07ed2a&cmp=em-orm-books-videos-oldies-goodies-short-elist
[13:31] <brousch> DNS and Bind from 6 years ago for $20?
[13:31] <brousch> for an ebook?
[13:32] <brousch> also 2 ruby books, no python?
[13:32] <snap-l> brousch: How many changes are you aware of in DNS?
[13:32] <snap-l> Outside of DNSSEC, not much has changed. :)
[13:32] <snap-l> and I'm not sure that's all that new.
[13:34] <brousch> hm, maybe you're right. it is $21 used on amazon
[13:42] <snap-l> brousch: I'd expect Wolfger to be fielding dealership complaints sooner than I'd expect you to be fielding them. :)
[14:42] <nullspace> just looked clojure syntax, all I can say is yikes
[14:43] <nullspace> I can read it but I think using it for anything complex is just going to hurt
[14:46] <snap-l> nullspace: ever played with Lisp?
[14:46] <snap-l> It's very similar.
[14:49] <jrwren> brousch: yes, everything on that list is overpriced
[14:50] <rick_h> heh, the fact that they half off new books for DoTD, give any UG 35% off the top means that books are just overpriced
[14:53] <jrwren> clojure is a lisp isn't it?
[14:53] <jrwren> its scheme for jvm, right?
[14:53] <jrwren> yup
[14:54] <jrwren> "Clojure is a dialect of Lisp," from clojure.org
[14:54] <snap-l> I don't think there's a "one true lisp"
[14:54] <jrwren> right, that is what I'm saying.
[14:54] <snap-l> It's like English
[14:54] <jrwren> its a lisp
[14:54] <jrwren> like scheme is a lisp
[14:54] <jrwren> like elisp is a lisp
[14:54] <jrwren> like common lisp is a lisp
[14:55] <snap-l> Like MIT Scheme is not like GNU Scheme is not like ...
[14:55] <jrwren> well you could argue that John McCarthy's 1960 paper defines the one true lisp
[14:56] <jrwren> exactly! MIT scheme would be > GNU Scheme :)
[14:56] <snap-l> Hah
[14:57] <snap-l> Just seems whenever someone creates a LISP interpreter, they also create a new dialect to go with it
[14:57] <snap-l> And we're not talking separate accents, but whole categories of slang.
[14:58] <jrwren> right
[14:58] <jrwren> and there are thousands, becuase its a project that 1/2 of all computer science students do at one point :p
[14:58] <snap-l> jrwren: truth
[15:09] <nullspace> snap-l: have yet to play with Lisp, though I am intrigued
[15:11] <nullspace> when I see a new language that I understand but I don't see the reason for why it's doing things in a certain way I think that there has to be a good reasona nd maybe a godo use for it
[15:11] <nullspace> otherwise why the hell was it created
[15:12] <snap-l> nullspace: the enduring languages have purposes
[15:12] <nullspace> except brainfuck, that's just there to screw with your head
[15:12] <snap-l> sometimes languages are just created as a programming exercise.
[15:14] <nullspace> I think I'll give clojure a spin through the first ten problems of project euler this weekend
[15:24] <_stink_> and even within common lisp implementations, there are enough significant differences to be totally annoying.
[15:24] <_stink_> especially with system interfacing stuff.
[15:24] <_stink_> i like the competitive ecosystem... until i try to accomodate it.  then i hate it.
[15:28] <snap-l> _stink_: ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
[15:45] <jrwren> rick_h: did you see the nodejs video I retweeted?
[15:45] <jrwren> i LOLed a lot
[15:47] <rick_h> jrwren: will take a peek
[15:57] <brousch> i just created a custom django templatetag and corrected a django snippet. i think i am becoming assimilated
[16:00] <brousch> also, heroku is fun. `git push heroku master` and my updates are live
[16:11] <jrwren> rick_h: it was orig a jwz tweet if you can't find it
[16:27] <rick_h> jrwren: thanks, saw the tweet go by but didn't "understand" what it was so skipped by
[16:28] <snap-l> What the fuck
[16:28] <snap-l> Just discovered UNity has some keyboard shortcuts for tiling
[16:28] <snap-l> Accidentally hit CTRL-ALT-NUmpad 0 and my window went fullscreen
[16:29] <snap-l> CTRL-ALT-2,4,6,8 also move the window to that side
[16:29] <snap-l> Hell, the whole thing is boobytrapped. :)
[16:29] <snap-l> DBO: This is your doing!!!!
[16:36] <brousch> they're trying to make rick_h happy
[16:36] <rick_h> heh, not quite. anything + a number is a horrible shortcut
[16:37] <snap-l> Well, and it's only for a numberpad
[16:37] <rick_h> ?!
[16:37] <snap-l> so rick_h gets no love there either
[16:37] <rick_h> so doesn't work if you dont' have a numpad on your laptop?
[16:37] <rick_h> bah, wasted code imo
[16:38] <snap-l> Heh
[16:40] <rick_h> why do we have to have the most retarded setups for things? ugh!
[16:42] <snap-l> ?
[16:44] <rick_h> just getting annoyed at the way every little bit of code in the world we put together is strange and half working as #@$@#$@#
[16:44] <rick_h> having a ranty friday
[16:45] <ColonelPanic001> o.o
[16:48] <rick_h> packages with buildout.cfg, but they don't work, then the README says to do this other thing, and rather than any sane test thing, find out we've built some magic https://launchpad.net/testrepository thing that this package uses
[16:49] <rick_h> heh, and I see this is written because we've got giant ass test suites that day a workday to run: http://rbtcollins.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/testrepository-iteration-for-python-projects/
[16:49] <brousch> a whole day?
[16:50] <brousch> that's insane
[16:50] <rick_h> 4-6hrs
[16:50] <rick_h> it's why we run the damn things in ec2, it's fire/forget
[16:56] <brousch> this is crazy traffic to my work website. i led a grwebdev meeting on the 23rd but never mentioned my work at all. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/101667/traffic_from_grwebdev_wtf.png
[17:18] <Wolfger> rick_h: no numpad on your keyboard? How do you live?
[17:20] <Wolfger> all day tests, fire and forget? No way. "Quit playing games and get back to work."  "I am working. I'm running tests on the code." :-)
[17:20] <Wolfger> single-threading ftw
[17:21] <rick_h> Wolfger: this is what pqm is for
[17:22] <rick_h> Wolfger: and yes, I don't have a keypad on many of my keyboards <3
[17:23] <Wolfger> I always wanted the numpad on the left, not the right
[17:23] <Wolfger> those keyboards are hard to find and/or obscenely expensive
[17:24] <jrwren> numpad is bad.
[17:24] <jrwren> not ergo.
[17:24] <jrwren> mouse should be there.
[17:24] <jrwren> if mouse is past the numpad it is too far and you have to stretch to far to reach it.
[17:24] <jrwren> bad ergo
[17:28] <Wolfger> Why are you using a mouse? Just keep your hands on the keyboard.
[17:28] <rick_h> oh come on Wolfger, I can't believe a kde user isn't moues heavy
[17:28] <rick_h> if you truly didn't usea mouse much you'd be on a different DE
[17:28] <Wolfger> but yeah, that's why I want the numpad on the left...  "He was here earlier, then I got an e-mail that he wasn't feeling well and wouldn't be in today..."
[17:39] <jrwren> snap-l: gah! your tweet and blog post... i still don't have anyone to open the door for you.
[17:40] <snap-l> jrwren: No worries. Just LMK if it's not going to happen.
[17:45] <rick_h> snap-l: crap, wife's working on that day :(
[17:48] <snap-l> urgh
[17:48] <snap-l> WEll that's no good.
[17:49] <rick_h> I might be able to see if grandpa can watch him for an hour/two between me leaving and mom getting home since he's in town
[17:49] <rick_h> but not sure
[17:49] <snap-l> OK
[17:49] <rick_h> I'll shoot for it, but might not be able to make it out.  In theory, they're the same"
[19:03]  * brousch checks his vim book's ToC more closely
[19:03] <snap-l> brousch: There's a plugin for that
[19:03] <snap-l> gspot.vba
[19:04] <snap-l> also, do not google gspot vim
[19:05] <brousch> based on those people i know who use vim, that is not an image search i want to encounter
[19:12] <brousch> snap-l: whoa http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0242478
[19:13] <snap-l> Yeah, they're cheeeeeeep
[19:13] <snap-l> Even 4GB is $5 each
[19:14] <brousch> i actually can't find any 1GB for under $2 each
[19:15] <brousch> i bought a 5 pack 2 years ago for $6
[19:15] <snap-l> That's still pretty cheap.
[19:15] <snap-l> Yeah, I think they bottom out after a while
[19:15] <nullspace> some how I missed this whole non blocking arguement the node.js fan boys are thrwoing around
[19:16] <snap-l> nullspace: How so?
[19:16] <rick_h> nullspace: huh?
[19:16] <rick_h> that's the whole things with eventlet/node/etc
[19:16] <rick_h> whole point that is
[19:17] <rick_h> don't solve the concurrency problem, just work around it by making things not concurrent :)
[19:17] <nullspace> ouch
[19:17] <snap-l> Well, and use a language that is event based
[19:18] <snap-l> or very good at events along with a seriously optimized engine
[19:19] <rick_h> well the events just facilitate jumping in/out of the reactor/main thread
[19:19] <rick_h> nullspace: so anyway, what's the issue or whatever with the realization?
[19:20] <nullspace> I don't understand there arguement. did this make sense any time node.js came into being
[19:20] <rick_h> yes, the idea is that all the libraries/etc you use are non-blocking so that whenever you make a call to mysql/etc
[19:21] <rick_h> it happens outside the main thread allowing for another bit of code to be processed
[19:21] <rick_h> in this one, one thread handles more work faster by getting anything that hangs cpu cyles out of the way
[19:21] <rick_h>  /this one/this way
[19:22] <rick_h> for instance, in python, when I run a db query, it sits and waits for the db to respond, that python thread doesn't do any other work while waiting
[19:22] <rick_h> but it could be serving someone else's cached result in that time
[19:23] <nullspace> isn't there ways to write multi thread python?
[19:23] <rick_h> yes, but there's a GIL you have to deal with
[19:23] <rick_h> and it's really ineffecient for many many things
[19:23] <snap-l> GIL being the Global Lock
[19:24] <rick_h> and any time you get multi-threaded you have to think harder
[19:24] <snap-l> (I being ... :) )
[19:24] <rick_h> see java multi threading/locks/etc
[19:24] <snap-l> Global Interpreter Lock
[19:24] <nullspace> ah
[19:26] <nullspace> yeah that's not really a problem I can say I run into
[19:26] <snap-l> nullspace: Well, you might run into it in small forms
[19:27] <snap-l> but much like benchmarking different CPUs nowadays, you'll care a lot if you care a lot. ;)
[19:27] <snap-l> otherwise, you won't care that much until it starts breaking things.
[19:28] <nullspace> I think there are way bigger fish to fry
[19:28] <snap-l> Yeah, like setting up Eclipse. ;)
[19:30] <nullspace> hey, eclipse works just fine for me
[19:30] <rick_h> anyone else off monday?
[19:31] <snap-l> rick_h: Not I
[19:32] <snap-l> Unless you work for the government, I don't think you get Monday off.
[19:46] <nullspace> hmm well node could be really handy on embedded devices with a web frontend
[19:48] <rick_h> nullspace: node is very handle for very fast little services and some people have built really large apps with it
[19:48] <rick_h> handy that is
[19:48] <rick_h> I did a contact lookup thing that could handle many more req/s on the one cpu than python could
[19:50] <rick_h> the other handy space is the JS from back end to front end
[19:51] <jrwren> lol, hilarious.
[19:52] <rick_h> jrwren: which part :)
[19:56] <jrwren> nano
[19:56] <rick_h> ah, yea
[19:59] <jrwren> nullspace: the nonblcoking arguement: see Twisted Python
[20:00] <jrwren> or even stackless python
[20:00] <jrwren> and maybe pypy greenlets
[20:00] <rick_h> gevent, etc
[20:02] <Blazeix> rick_h: do you have an opinion on gunicorn/geven vs uwsgi? I was trying to wrap my head around that last night.
[20:02] <Blazeix> gunicorn is theoretically production-class, right? not just some little dev server?
[20:04] <brousch> Blazeix: supposedly
[20:04] <brousch> i'm using it to serve tens of requests per day on heroku
[20:04] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea, but it's pretty bare bones
[20:04] <rick_h> Blazeix: I'd still put it behind nginx/company
[20:05] <rick_h> Blazeix: uwsgi has some extra added nice features
[20:05] <rick_h> but I think gunicorn is winning the battle tbh
[20:05] <rick_h> but one thing at morpace I wold them on, was that it could "shut down" an app, and reload it on first request
[20:05] <brousch> it doesn't really do static files, so you still need something else in front
[20:05] <rick_h> so let's say you were deploying 50 wsgi apps, rather than 50 apps + 10 workers per app, sitting idle
[20:05] <rick_h> it could actually shut down the apps to the 5 current accepting requests
[20:05] <rick_h> and if #6 got a request, it'd take the time to load it
[20:06] <rick_h> brousch: right, static files, ssl, caching, etc
[20:06] <rick_h> Blazeix: and uwsgi is pure python, so no C libraries/compiling while gevent needs some C libs
[20:07] <brousch> the pure python is the most awesome part. pip install gunicorn
[20:08] <rick_h> Blazeix: nvm...it's not pure python, I lied
[20:08] <rick_h> but yea, it's pip installable, gunicorn is as well
[20:09] <brousch> it's not?
[20:09] <rick_h> no, gunicorn needs some c compiled bits for the gevent support
[20:10] <rick_h> damn, maybe I'm having a bad friday...don't see it
[20:11] <Blazeix> ok, cool. it kind of seems like gunicorn exploded on to the scene.
[20:11] <Blazeix> but maybe i'm just too far from the python community right now.
[20:11] <rick_h> ah, ok so gunicorn is pure python ootb, but yuou can change the worker model to eventlet of gevent for performance
[20:11] <rick_h> http://gunicorn.org/faq.html#worker-processes
[20:11] <rick_h> and those are C-based, I thoght it used gevent ootb
[20:12] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea, gunicorn is winning I think because it started out with built in django support
[20:12] <rick_h> and has since really gotten helpers to make it a lot easier/performs well
[20:12] <rick_h> and docs that don't suck as hard as uwsgi
[20:12] <rick_h> I love uwsgi --help and seeing
[20:12] <rick_h> -X "not documented yet"
[20:12] <rick_h> for options in there lol
[20:16] <brousch> well `python manage.py run_gunicorn` is a lot easier than farting around with apache+mod_wsgi
[20:17] <rick_h> yea, definitely
[20:17] <rick_h> I see django 1.4 will finally have a .wsgi ootb now
[20:17] <brousch> i should say much easier than python+mod_wsgi+ virtualenv, because that's what really makes it a bitch
[20:17]  * rick_h rants on django some more
[20:17] <snap-l> rick_h: 'bout fucking time
[20:17] <rick_h> http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=9735795484d2e4c204da82a29&id=e9564edf16&e=6bda5f785a
[20:18] <brousch> we don't need no stinking .wsgi
[20:18]  * rick_h smacks brousch upside the head with a cluebat (no baby sticks here)
[20:19] <rick_h> but yea, that's why gunicorn got a boost, it knew django users didn't wsgi ootb so it made it easy up front
[20:19] <rick_h> while everyone else just supports wsgi dammit
[20:19] <snap-l> There's no reason not to support wsgi
[20:20] <snap-l> None. Zero. Zip.
[20:51] <rick_h> man precise downloads so painfully slow :/
[20:59] <snap-l> bittorrent?
[21:07] <jrwren> rsync daily from testdrive :[
[21:11] <Blazeix> anyone have an opinion on the "Agile and Beyond" conference that's coming up?
[21:12] <Blazeix> my work wants me to go it, but for some reason i have a bad taste in my mouth about it.
[21:12] <Blazeix> i guess i'm worried it's going to be bunch of Big-A Agile people.
[21:12] <snap-l> What's the worst that could happen?
[21:13] <snap-l> A little Kool-Aid, some sneakers, and a loooong nap?
[21:13] <Blazeix> my brain could leak from my ears.
[21:14] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea, I couldn't sit through it
[21:14] <brousch> Agholes?
[21:14] <rick_h> Blazeix: Searls gave the talk at detroit dev days on jasmine
[21:14] <rick_h> but I mean side v side kanban talks? rly?
[21:15] <rick_h> heh, the improv talk from detroit dev days is going on there again
[21:15] <Blazeix> i've only ever used Kanban as a punchline, which I fear wouldn't go over well there.
[21:15] <rick_h> hah
[21:16] <rick_h> Blazeix: yea, it sure seems like a mgr thing than a code in an editor thing :/
[21:16] <Blazeix> exactly
[21:35] <brousch> as i work on this project i find i'm collecting a bunch of little bash scripts for repetative tasks, like refreshing static files locally and on the server. is this where i should be using fabric?
[21:39] <snap-l> If you're repeating a script, yes.
[21:39] <snap-l> If you have to keep a list of what script to run next, yes.
[21:52] <brousch> ok
[22:01] <rick_h> brousch: fabric or Makefile
[22:01] <rick_h> I'm coming around to the Makefile way of life
[22:01] <rick_h> thuogh still <3 fabric
[22:17] <snap-l> uh oh. :)
[23:09] <snap-l> Loaded up the good reads app on my nook
[23:09] <snap-l> I'm a little disappointed with it
[23:10] <snap-l> would be nice to have it automatically grab titles from the device
[23:10] <snap-l> instead, it's essentially the website in app form
[23:41] <brousch> snap-l rick_h sort of good news http://paste.mitechie.com/show/542/
[23:49] <rick_h> brousch: ah, nice


[05:24] <tmarble> doko: I see that sun-java5 is in the repository (for edgy), but I cannot seem to apt-get it?  any ideas?


[05:52] <beuno> can anyone take a look at: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
[05:52] <beuno> the 12th has 2 MOTU Q&A meetings
[05:52] <beuno> but one is at 00:00 with no end, so I suspect that is wrong
[07:23] <mdke> beuno: sounds right. Maybe you could ask the motu team?


[06:00] <jibel> hi all
[07:07] <oSoMoN> good morning desktoppers
[07:08] <didrocks> good morning
[07:09] <jibel> salut didrocks
[07:13] <didrocks> salut jibel, ça va ?
[07:15] <oSoMoN> salut didrocks, jibel
[07:18] <didrocks> hey oSoMoN
[07:23] <jibel> didrocks, ça va bien et toi?
[07:23] <jibel> salut infinity
[07:23] <jibel> oSoMoN, ^
[07:23] <jibel> too quick at tab completion
[07:26] <didrocks> jibel: ça va :)
[07:32] <oSoMoN> jibel, that wouldn't have happened with a bépo layout :)
[07:33] <jibel> I'd have pinged someone starting with a P
[07:34] <jibel> or you mean you cannot type quickly with bepo? ;)
[07:36] <jibel> didrocks, i merged the advanced dialog and the installer fixes are ready for review
[07:36] <jibel> i'm rebasing the mp
[07:38] <didrocks> jibel: yeah, I already started reviewing it
[07:40] <jibel> didrocks, I am not fully happy with it and there are rough edge so don't hesitate if you see improvements
[07:41] <jibel> i'll push an update in a min to not break on kde
[07:44] <jibel> didrocks, than I'd like to test the proposal from upstream for swap on zvol and revert the last minute change made in 19.10
[07:44] <jibel> then*
[07:44] <jibel> damn keys moving on my keyboard
[07:48] <didrocks> jibel: yeah, discussions is still ongoing upstream as I see :)
[07:53] <jibel> didrocks, yeah but for the moment I think the best way forward is to create the swap as described by ryao
[07:54] <jibel> then i'll do some tests
[07:56] <Wimpress> Morning desktoppers o/
[08:24] <marcustomlinson> morning jibel oSoMoN didrocks Wimpress
[08:24] <didrocks> hey marcustomlinson
[08:25] <Wimpress> O/
[08:42] <seb128> goood morning desktopers
[08:43] <marcustomlinson> morning seb128
[08:43] <seb128> hey marcustomlinson, how are you today?
[08:43] <marcustomlinson> seb128: good thanks :) you?
[08:44] <seb128> marcustomlinson, I'm good, stomach recovered!
[08:45] <marcustomlinson> yay
[08:55] <didrocks> hey seb128
[08:55] <didrocks> good for your stomach :)
[09:02] <Laney> hi de hi
[09:05] <didrocks> hey en hey Laney
[09:09] <marcustomlinson> Yo Laney
[09:28] <Laney> hey didrocks marcustomlinson
[09:39] <ricotz> hey desktopers :)
[09:40] <ricotz> marcustomlinson, hi, do you expect libreoffice 6.3.3 to be accepted in eoan this week?
[09:55] <didrocks> hey ricotz
[09:57] <marcustomlinson> ricotz: not this week no. Once it's been approved, I'll verify, then 7 days from then
[09:58] <marcustomlinson> sil2100: could you put libreoffice for eoan on your radar for today pretty please?
[10:01] <sil2100> marcustomlinson: suar
[10:05] <marcustomlinson> sil2100: :) thank you
[10:07] <Laney> 29% battery
[10:07] <Laney> 100% at 09:00
[10:07] <Laney> 😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
[10:08] <ricotz> marcustomlinson, ok, I mean the queue approval so eoan-proposed, this would be this week?
[10:08] <marcustomlinson> ricotz: right
[10:08] <ricotz> otherwise I am going to push a ppa build
[10:08] <Laney> that's in control of the SRU team, not the uploader, but as you can see he just requested that from them
[10:08] <marcustomlinson> that ^
[10:09] <ricotz> marcustomlinson, good
[10:11] <ricotz> Laney, afaict from my own experience, it is pretty much in control of the uploader to ping appropriate sru team members
[10:15] <Laney> I almost never do
[10:25] <oSoMoN> SRU team members do go through the queue even when not pinged, but they also have lots of other responsibilities so sometimes patience is the answer
[11:01] <jibel> when is planned next release of mutter in focal to unbreak the live image?
[11:51] <Laney> jibel: now, was probably working on it when you asked
[11:51] <Laney> the fix got merged last night
[12:11] <sil2100> marcustomlinson: just double confirming - the gcc-9 in eoan is good with the new LO, right?
[12:11] <sil2100> Poking since I saw all the build-conflicts for those various, newer gcc-9 versions
[12:15] <marcustomlinson> sil2100: yes the gcc-9 in eoan is no problem
[12:16] <marcustomlinson> there's just a range between 9.2.1-12/15 that was broke afaiu
[12:17] <sil2100> Ok, thanks ;)
[12:17] <marcustomlinson> and we're likely to jump to 9.2.1-17 for eoan as is in focal
[12:18] <marcustomlinson> sil2100: I did build this in a ppa and test on Eoan if that eases your mind a little :)
[12:21] <sil2100> Now I just need to somehow accept libreoffice, it's always a pain, both the API calls and LP times out when doing it
[12:21] <sil2100> Requires multiple tries
[12:25] <marcustomlinson> sil2100: just lately? or has been for some time?
[12:28] <marcustomlinson> yay thanks sil2100!
[12:29] <marcustomlinson> ricotz: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/1:6.3.3-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>
[13:00] <jibel> Laney, thx
[13:12] <ricotz> marcustomlinson, \o/
[13:24] <sil2100> marcustomlinson: since always for me at least
[15:20] <hellsworth> good morning everyone
[15:24] <marcustomlinson> morning hellsworth
[15:25] <hellsworth> how are things marcustomlinson ?
[15:25] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: not too bad :) you?
[15:25] <hellsworth> things are good. it's cold and foggy here which makes me extra love my coffee
[15:26] <hellsworth> while i polishing my talk for las. im a bit nervous about it
[15:26] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: what's the talk on?
[15:27] <hellsworth> GNOME Deskop Snap Applications: Introducing GNOME extensions
[15:27] <hellsworth> i basically want to say hey look at this cool thing you should all use :)
[15:28] <marcustomlinson> nice :)
[15:29] <hellsworth> i gave a practice talk to my husband last night and got some good feedback
[15:29] <hellsworth> apparently i need more on what are snaps
[15:29] <hellsworth> are there some slides already out there somewhere that i could borrow from?
[15:31] <marcustomlinson> Wimpress: ^
[15:33] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: though, it sounds like igor will cover this in his talk
[15:33] <marcustomlinson> https://conf.linuxappsummit.org/en/LAS2019/public/events/12
[15:33] <hellsworth> right and i thought about that (his talk is going before mine) but i figured if folks came to mine that didn't come to his i should have a little blurb
[15:34] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: steal a slide or two from him
[15:34] <marcustomlinson> do a recap
[15:34] <hellsworth> yeah a recap. good idea.
[15:34] <ogra> or steal him to say a few sentences to summarize his talk at the beginning of yours ;)
[15:35] <hellsworth> that would be weird
[16:34] <kenvandine> mvo: any thoughts on https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/slack-opening-file-browser-firefox-and-chrome-in-the-snaps-context/8969
[16:48]  * Laney stares at nusakan
[16:48] <Laney> new iso isn't syncing out
[16:51] <mvo> kenvandine: in a meeting, sry
[16:56] <kenvandine> mvo: when you have a chance.  It affects classic snaps.
[17:04] <mvo> kenvandine: (still in a meeting) - is there something we need to fix or do we have a design problem? (again, sorry that I didn't managed to look at this yet)
[17:07] <kenvandine> mvo: i think the real problem is essentially env leaking to apps started via an action in the classic snap
[17:08] <kenvandine> like in the slack case, clicking a link in slack when the default browser isn't running.  The default browser process is started in the context of the classic snap
[17:08] <mvo> kenvandine: thank you, I will ask someone in my team to investigate
[17:08] <kenvandine> thx
[17:09] <kenvandine> i'm not sure what the right thing to do there is... but perhaps xdg-open ?
[17:21] <Laney> its there now
[17:21] <Laney> jibel: you can try pending if you want
[17:34] <Laney> seems good to me
[17:34] <Laney> :>


 qttools built fine a couple of days ago but FTBFS today 😢
 in debian I presume? (re @mitya57: qttools built fine a couple of days ago but FTBFS today 😢)
 Yes, fine
 Probably a result of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/llvm-defaults/0.55.1ubuntu1, I will build qttools with -proposed pocket disabled


 plasmashell —replace &
[00:09] <_zxq9_> Ah. plasmashell can be restarted with `kstart5 plasmashell`
[00:09] <_zxq9_> It seems to be smart enough to know what components to restart.
[05:19] <persgeek> help
[05:20] <diogenes_> !ask | persgeek
[05:58] <lordievader> Good morning
[06:12] <yashvi> Hi
[06:13] <yashvi> I Love to use Kubuntu more than Windows 7
[06:13] <yashvi> I can download anything from ubuntu software
[06:15] <yashvi> But in Windows 7 I needed to pay money for whatever game, app, scanner, screen shot, screen recorder
[06:15] <yashvi> My name is Yashvi Gavankar
[06:15] <yashvi> How many people are here??
[06:15] <yashvi> ??
[06:16] <yashvi__> Does anyone know how to use HTML or Javascript or CSS
[06:21] <lordievader> Many people do, this is not really the channel to discuss it though.
[06:22] <lordievader> #programming is more suited, though there might be a more specific web-development channel, ask Alis.
[06:22] <lordievader> !alis
 Hi!
 Can anybody help me setting up a samba share on my home network on Kubuntu 18.04?
 https://linuxize.com/post/how-to-install-and-configure-samba-on-ubuntu-18-04/
 This one does not seem very helpful.
 Am I getting this right that I can only share the files with a specific user on the network? What about the ipads in the house?
 Also, I guess, I misunderstand this, but does SMB normally share outside the local network as well??
[11:50] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[12:17] <m_tadeu> hi..I lost all sound, sudenlyonly have  a dummy device
[12:19] <m_tadeu> dummy output, I mean
[12:19] <BluesKaj> detailspls
[12:19] <m_tadeu> alsamixer says: cannot open mixer: no such file or directory
[12:20] <m_tadeu> have an intel  audio device
[12:22] <m_tadeu> also have a headset, webcam and hdmi which should give me all these devices
[12:22] <BluesKaj> reinstall alsa-base and alsa-utils, then sudo modprobe snd-hda-intel, and reboot
[12:27] <m_tadeu> no luck
[12:29] <BluesKaj> also don't forget to disable automute in alsamixer, it's enabled by default
[13:24] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: alsamixer says: cannot open mixer: no such file or directory
[13:26] <BluesKaj> strange
[13:27] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, have you updated and upgraded lately?
[13:27] <m_tadeu> yes...I think this happened last week...might have been after an upgrade, but not 100% sure
[13:28] <viewer|95> hello, does anyone know why the kubuntu live iso has a script for setting the username to the name of the disk?
[13:29] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, well, do so again
[13:29] <m_tadeu> it's all up-to-date
[13:29] <m_tadeu> even did a sudo apt install -f
[13:29] <BluesKaj> which release m_tadeu?
[13:29] <viewer|95> im using cubic to make a customized iso and its auto generating a sddm.conf instead of using my custom one
[13:29] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: 19.10
[13:30] <BluesKaj> viewer|95, hmm customizing isn't supported here
[13:31] <viewer|95> could one explain the live systemd startup scripts at least please?
[13:32] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, what does, sudo modprobe snd-hda-intel, show?
[13:32] <viewer|95> i understand it isnt supported, just trying to learn :)
[13:33] <BluesKaj> viewer|95, I'm sure you can find documentation on systemd startup scripts if you do some research on the 'net
[13:34] <mike-hs> Hi guys. I was using beta for few days, new install. Today I had to reinstall because I trashed the os with some vfio fidling. Now installer crashes everytime almost at the end
[13:34] <mike-hs> Is there a bug tracking this? Installer crashing during install?
[13:34] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: nothing...empty output...but lsmod | grep snd_hda_intel shows somes...first as itself, others as dep
[13:35] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, no output means the intel audio driver is loaded
[13:36] <BluesKaj> mike-hs, 20.04 beta questions in #ubuntu+1 please
[13:36] <mike-hs> BluesKaj: thx!
[13:42] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu,, do you have pulseaudio and pavucontrol installed ?
[13:51] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: it installed pavucontrol...reboot but no luck...still no sound
[13:51] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, did you check alsamixer automute like I mentioned earlier?
[13:52] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: can't run alsamixer..." cannot open mixer: no such file or directory"
[13:53] <BluesKaj> oh right, then you might have a bug
[13:58] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, what does this show?  lspci -nn | grep -i audio
[14:00] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: show the intel audio device
[14:05] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, ok, think we need to purge, alsa-base, alsa-utils and linux-sound-base then reboot and reinstall them, one of those package config files is corrupted
[14:13] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: purge -> reboot -> install -> reboot....still no sound
[14:14] <m_tadeu> alsamixer complains with the same message
[14:14] <m_tadeu> pavucontrol also only has the dummy device
[14:17] <BluesKaj> m_tadeu, then I
[14:18] <BluesKaj> m stumped, unless it's a hardware problem
[14:19] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: if the audio board shows up in lspci, it should show up in the devices, right?
[14:20] <m_tadeu> and weird thing is, even without any devices, alsamixer should run
[14:25] <BluesKaj> not sure, if alsa doesn't detect a soundcard then i don't know what it would do
[14:27] <BluesKaj> lspci sees the audio chip, that's obvious, but your alsa behaviour seems corrupted to me.
 @m_tadeu, By chance, did you remove kmix?
[14:33] <m_tadeu> IrcsomeBot: kmix it's not installed
[14:38] <rapidrob> My Xerox phaser 6010 is not on the list of available drivers, Xerox only has a 32 bit driver for debian. The 64 bit driver for RPM doesn't work.
[14:42] <BluesKaj> alsa and snd-hda-intel work fine here without kmix
[14:48] <m_tadeu> I don't think kmix should be installed at all
[16:00] <m_tadeu> BluesKaj: this is on syslog https://pastebin.com/LL4GPfj3 . does it bring any light to this? googling doesn't popup anything interesting
[17:18] <digitalw00t> I'm running kubuntu 19.04, and shortly after I start vmware workstation pro, my system completely freezes.
[17:18] <digitalw00t> I can ping the host, but cannot ssh to it
[17:18] <digitalw00t> And the system is completely none-responsive.
[17:19] <digitalw00t> I haven't power cycled it yet, if anyone has any ideas on what I could do.
[17:20] <diogenes_> digitalw00t, check out the swap usage.
[17:21] <digitalw00t> System is completely hung, but I can ping it from the outside.
[17:21] <digitalw00t> I was going to power cycle it, but wanted to know if there was something I needed to do prior to get any debugging info out of it.
[17:23] <digitalw00t> diogenes_: Wow.. doesn't even appear to react to sysrq.  Wonder why it responds to pings.
[17:24] <tomreyn> !19.04
[19:05] <Venom> Hello everyone
[19:06] <Venom> When the Kubuntu 20.04 gonna release on the same day as Ubuntu?
[19:07] <RikMills> Venom: yes
[19:11] <Venom> Okay.. anyone tested the 20.04 ?
[19:12] <Venom> !20.04
[19:13] <Venom> How stable is kde 5.18.3 ?
 @Venom, Yes I did
[19:16] <Venom> Okay
[19:17] <Venom> Any news about about qt and kde relationship?
[20:23] <messias> Hello Everyone
[21:40] <digitalw00t> When I connect to a vpn, my local dns settings are being ignored.  It's only hitting the dns on the other side of the vpn tunnel, and I really want it to hit my dns first locally as well as the remote dns if the local one doesn't have an entry on file for the lookup.
[23:37] <user|2785> Hi
[23:38] <user|2785> anyone use FreeOffice?
[23:40] <user|2785> I heard that is similarly to ms office


[04:19] <aiena> how do I unbind keyboard shortcuts in lubuntu ?
[12:34] <Shawn|i7-Q720M> Howdy folks
[12:35] <Shawn|i7-Q720M> Is something supposed to pop up when I run gksu gedit /etc/default/grub
[12:35] <Shawn|i7-Q720M>  ?
[12:38] <Shawn|i7-Q720M> gedit is not installed, nvm
[17:23] <Sheilong> Lubuntu can't install grub, it stops in middle of the instalation
[17:23] <Sheilong> what shall I do?
[18:00] <Zborg> does lubuntu still work well on an old 1.6ghz atom (N450) processor


 Kilos ! We had a board today, 30 min ago, no quorum..  So I supposed that you're AFK
[12:34] <Kilos> just ping me always and ill see it when i get here
[12:34] <elacheche> Anyway, there is no quorum
[12:34] <Kilos> oh not just me
[12:34] <elacheche> yeah
[12:34] <Kilos> sorry
[12:34] <elacheche> join the private channel please :)
[12:35] <Kilos> this time is a difficult one
[12:35] <Kilos> ok sec
[22:55] <dpm> hey nhaines, around?


[08:03] <dholbach> good morning
[21:29] <JHOSMAN_> Hello mhall119 ! :)
[21:29] <mhall119> hi JHOSMAN_
[21:30] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119: you can see inbox to donatins?
[21:30] <JHOSMAN_> I made a request for Colombia. (Flisol Bogota)
[21:31] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: yes, and in fact I needed to ask you about that, what does sponsorship of FLISOL give us?
[21:31] <mhall119> do we get speaker slots, banner ads, something like that?
[21:35] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119:  We may be able to place Banners Canonical (in Colombia do not have) it is also possible to put a Speaker of Ubuntu for some conference, sedate Canonical advertising banners on the event and on the website www.flisolbogota.org
[21:37] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: the ads and banners would be Ubuntu, not Canonical (or "Ubuntu sponsored by Canonical"). We can probably send banners to whomever will be a FLISOL, they'd just have to send them back
[21:38] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: if you can find out specifically what we get in exchange for sponsorship, I'll update that in your request and then we can finish processing it
[21:38] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119:  If you can do the way you want, Ubuntu or Canonical, so no problem with regard to sending banners propose something easier, what if we send additional and send to print here?
[21:39] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: sorry, I think something is being lost in translation, I don't understand what you mean
[21:40] <JHOSMAN_> The benefits to the sponsors of the event are visible in fly (if supplied it to us), banner on the website www.flisolbogota.org, banner visible to the whole audience in the hall of the event and mention to people (microphone) .
[21:41] <JHOSMAN_> If you would like banner ads (banners) are within the hall of the event there are two options you guys send to Colombia and return by mail (much more complicated) or send us the money and SVG and print it here, what would be delivered to Ubuntu Colombia council after the event.
[21:43] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119:  I sent the request yesterday from my email<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:44] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: what would it cost if we sent you an SVG to print?
[21:45] <JHOSMAN_> I forgot to mention, another benefit is the inclusion of the logo that you wish (Ubuntu or Canonical) in promotional emails we send a mailing list of about 4000 people. The influx of visitors during the day is free and free, are approximately 3000 visitors.
[21:45] <jose> JHOSMAN_: te esta pidiendo que le especifiques qué beneficios tendrían al patrocinar. Con lo que has mandado se sobreentiende que no hay beneficio alguno, por lo que no pueden procesarlo
[21:46] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119: aprox 50 USD (We should find out costs and sizes.)
[21:46] <jose> JHOSMAN_: si puedes detallar los beneficios (no solo linkear) y mandarselos por correo seria bueno - con datos no tan precisos no se puede trabajar
[21:47] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119:  If you want I can send the proposal in PDF and other benefits detalels mail.
[21:47] <JHOSMAN_> jose gracias =)
[21:47] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: yes please, mhall119 (at) ubuntu.com
[21:48] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119: a moment please.
[21:48] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: if Ubuntu-Colombia doesn't have their own banner yet, you should request money to get one made, so you have it for any shows/conferences you attend
[21:49] <jose> JHOSMAN_: me parece que ya se les envio el banner y el mantel, cierto?
[21:50] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119:  Ubuntu Colombia has only one banner, which always used to stand in the community see: https://www.facebook.com/UbuntuColombia/photos/a.10151552845294931.1073741833.24428334930/10151552876634931/?type=3&theater
[21:50] <JHOSMAN_> jose:  si pero este lo usa la comunidad para el stand de ese dia
[21:51] <JHOSMAN_> los patrocinadores pueden poner otros banners diferentes (tipo araña) jose
[21:51] <jose> hmm, personalmente no veo la necesidad
[21:51] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: I've got to run, but jose can help you get your request in order
[21:52] <JHOSMAN_> That's the stuff we have, but the community, the community does not sponsor the event, only participates in.
[21:52] <JHOSMAN_> jose: podemos hablar en interno para que me ayudes?
[21:52] <mhall119> JHOSMAN_: understood
[21:52] <jose> si, claro
[21:52] <mhall119> thank you jose :)
[22:28] <JHOSMAN_> mhall119:  I already have the document ready, you will be writing immediately on review and approval.
[23:01] <JHOSMAN_> bye! and thansk!


[00:50] <valorie> :-0
[00:50] <SonikkuAmerica> So anyway...
[00:50] <valorie> and ahoneybun IS here now
[00:50] <valorie> so that's perfect
[00:51] <valorie> so lubuntu and ubuntugnome docs -- do you have a link?
[00:52] <SonikkuAmerica> Actually, my proposal, while similar, is somewhat different...
[00:52] <SonikkuAmerica> Ali/amjjawad created a one-page landing for all things Lubuntu when he was still there (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LubuntuLinks), and when he moved to Ubuntu GNOME, he did a similar page on the wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/OneStopPage). I was wondering if there would be usefulness in shuffling the idea over to the Kubuntu wiki?
[00:53] <valorie> that looks quite excellent
[00:53] <valorie> you may not have heard that we've moved the Kubuntu Docs to the KDE wiki
[00:53] <SonikkuAmerica> (Or if there would be a way of, say, optimizing the wiki or whatnot to include easier access to information patterned after that...)
[00:53] <valorie> but certainly we still use the ubuntu wiki system
[00:53] <SonikkuAmerica> Nope, didn't hear that...
[00:54] <valorie> mediawiki is so much easier to work with
[00:54] <SonikkuAmerica> (That's actually not a bad idea at all, though...)
[00:54] <valorie> and translator tool is possible to use
[00:54] <valorie> but still, the wiki is useful
[00:54] <valorie> just not for docs
[00:55] <valorie> sorry, I just realized it's time to make dinner
[00:55] <SonikkuAmerica> OK
[00:55] <valorie> thanks very much for the links!
[00:55] <SonikkuAmerica> I'll be around for a while... just pitching the idea
[00:55] <valorie> cool
[00:55] <SonikkuAmerica> :)
[00:55] <SonikkuAmerica> Yeah, go fix and eat dinner and let's talk more
[00:55] <valorie> feel free to make a start on such a page and solicit links for it
[00:55] <SonikkuAmerica> On the wiki?
[00:55] <valorie> yes
[00:55] <SonikkuAmerica> What should I book as the link title?
[00:56] <valorie> KubuntuLinks sounds good to me, what do you think?
[00:56] <SonikkuAmerica> Can do! :)
[00:56] <valorie> great!
[00:56] <valorie> ttyl
[06:26] <ahoneybun> seems I missed things
[06:54] <ahoneybun_> ping valorie
[07:02] <ahoneybun_> darn netflix adding all of Dexter
[07:12] <valorie> too late!
[07:30] <ahoneybun> hello?
[07:32] <ahoneybun> hey valorie
[07:32] <valorie> hi
[07:32] <valorie> 'sup?
[07:34] <ahoneybun> what is this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LubuntuLinks
[07:34] <ahoneybun> ?
[07:36] <valorie> SonikkuAmerica found this and an ubuntu gnome page which is similar, and wondered if such a page might be useful to us
[07:37] <valorie> I explained how our docs and other stuff is organized, so he is going to find and list links like that for us
[07:37] <valorie> and maybe find some gems in our old wiki
[07:37] <valorie> and maybe some junk that we can delete
[07:37] <ahoneybun> nice
[07:38] <valorie> yes, he has a week before college starts, and wants to make himself useful
[07:38] <valorie> cleaning our wiki sounds ideal
[07:43] <ahoneybun> yea I start back on the 7th
[07:50] <ahoneybun> so how is the house valorie?
[07:55] <valorie> I can see the dirt under my house
[07:56] <valorie> hopefully Tuesday they will be done under there, and build a floor again
[07:56] <valorie> I hope then progress will start!
[07:56] <valorie> building instead of tearing down
[08:02] <ahoneybun> yea
[11:04] <lordievader> Good afternoon.
[11:24] <BluesKaj> hiyas all
[11:45] <unicodesnow> hi :)
[16:57] <tester56> i have written a script that automatically installs packages for me on trusty ... however apt complains about unmet dependencies for different packages such as "python-pycurl-dbg"
[16:57] <tester56> when I try "sudo apt-get install python-pycurl-dbg" it complains " Depends: python-pycurl (= 7.19.0-5ubuntu8) but 7.19.0-5ubuntu9 is to be installed"
[16:58] <tester56> where should I report such packaging errors?
[17:00] <BluesKaj> tester56, suggest you also alias a dist-upgrade in your script
[17:00] <tester56> BluesKaj: i am on newest daily, no external sources configured ... so what would be the point?
[17:02] <tester56> if you are on latest trusty try "sudo apt-get install python-pycurl-dbg" and you will see what I mean ;-)
[17:04] <tester56> may script processes a list of options to apt-get install and if one of the 100 packages passed to apt-get has unmet dependencies, the whole command will fail ... does one know a way to make apt-get exclude packages with unmet dependencies?
[17:06] <BluesKaj> tester56, I'll take your word for it
[17:07] <Riddell> cor frameworks to be packaged http://download.kde.org/unstable/frameworks/4.95.0/
[17:08] <Riddell> "Steve Stalcup (vorian) renewed their own membership in the Kubuntu Members (kubuntu-members) team until 2015-01-11" yay v_ still loves us, feel free to get back into helping here v_ :)
[17:11] <Riddell> tester56: apt-cache policy python-pycurl and apt-cache policy python-pycurl-dbg  will tell you what versions are available
[17:15] <tester56> Riddell: but do you agree its an packaging error?
[17:17] <tester56> as I have never had an gtk-application crashing on kubuntu (maybe because I don't use much): what crash handler will show up on kubuntu for gtk applications?
[17:32] <Riddell> tester56: apport should
[17:32] <Riddell> although that might be disabled for releases
[17:32] <Riddell> so it might just disappear without notice
[17:33] <tester56> how to enable apport for all non-kde applications?
[17:45] <Riddell> dunno, this might say https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport#How_to_enable_apport
[17:59] <tester56_> /etc/default/apport is set enabled in trusty daily, so it should show up I suppose :-)
[19:20] <Quintasan> KDE Frameworks 5 TP 1 on 7th January ;_;
[20:22] <tester56> do you also get the following error when configuring a google account in kmail: "Resource IMAP E-Mail Server is broken. This resource is now offline"?
[20:22] <tester56> but despite the error it works
[20:43] <jalcine> Quintasan: O_O
[20:43] <Quintasan> jalcine: What?
[20:43] <jalcine> the TP!
[20:43] <jalcine> a bit excited
[20:43] <Quintasan> ah
[20:43] <jalcine> I had a few ideas for apps
[20:44] <jalcine> but I held off until this state
[20:44] <jalcine> might even wait a bit more
[20:44] <Quintasan> Well, it's a technical preview so I'm not sure how end-users...
[20:44] <Quintasan> wait
[20:44] <Quintasan> nvm
[20:44] <jalcine> :P
[20:44] <Quintasan> I think we will have packages
[20:44] <jalcine> s/packages/late Christmas presents/g
[20:44] <kubotu> jalcine: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
[20:44] <jalcine> oi
[20:44] <Quintasan> Yes.
[20:45] <Quintasan> That might be the case.
[21:44] <shadeslayer> jalcine: KF5 tp doesn't mean you'll have a usable desktop :)
[21:44] <shadeslayer> no Plasma 2 release yet
[21:48] <jalcine> shadeslayer: d'oh
[21:48] <jalcine> just wanted some libs to build against
[21:48] <shadeslayer> use neon5
[21:48]  * shadeslayer thinks flash is doing evil stuff
[21:49] <shadeslayer> it couldn't play videos since / is full
[21:51] <jalcine> flash = evil
[21:51] <jalcine> but not Wally West, he's a good guy
[21:52] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: btw does a project that does a release of their source but their development isn't done on a public repo count as a foss project?
[21:53] <shadeslayer> and does it meet criteria to be packaged in universe>
[21:53] <apachelogger> it's free software
[21:53] <apachelogger> what if I don't do version control but write gpl software, doesn't it get to be free software then? :P
[21:53] <shadeslayer> this thing doesn't have a proper license :(
[21:54] <apachelogger> not free software then
[21:54] <apachelogger> whatever you mean by proper licenses :P
[21:54] <shadeslayer> http://pastebin.kde.org/paf9z42rw
[21:55] <shadeslayer> ^^ no proper license
[21:55] <apachelogger> not free software
[21:55] <shadeslayer> ack
[21:56] <apachelogger> intelectual property lies with the copyright holder and the copyright holder did not extend any rights, so no one has rights to do anything with it
[21:56] <apachelogger> kinda silly to put source out like that xD
[21:57] <shadeslayer> I see
[21:57] <apachelogger> although maybe you could then sue someone and you'd have evidence that you had the code first (since you have released it you made it public knowledge that you have this magic)
[21:57] <apachelogger> not sure whether that would stand up in a court of law though
[21:59]  * yofel starts with 4.11.5 for saucy
[22:00] <shadeslayer> sounds like fun
[22:02] <yofel> shouldn't be too much work, no git splits or stuff like that this time :)
[22:03] <jalcine> .97 <3
[22:13] <valorie> weeeee, thanks yofel


[10:42] <codebeaker> hi all, I'm getting into upstart for the first time, and I wonder if I've missed something… I'm trying to use upstart to keep monit running
[12:02] <codebeaker> hi all, I'm getting into upstart for the first time, and I wonder if I've missed something… I'm trying to use upstart to keep monit running (re-post, since I was D/C'ed)
[12:46] <SpamapS> codebeaker: what do you think you're missing?
[12:46] <codebeaker> if I kill monit, upstart doesn't bring it back
[12:46] <codebeaker> which I gathered was the point of upstart
[12:46] <codebeaker> ( in addition to actually starting it in the firstplace)
[12:46] <SpamapS> did you put the word 'respawn' in your job file?
[12:47] <SpamapS> no respawning isn't the only point of upstart.. its mostly just to be feature compatible w/ sysvinit
[12:47] <SpamapS> Its just a little smarter about it than sysvinit. :)
[12:47] <codebeaker> ok, I'll check - also what is the /correct/ place for upstart configs?
[12:47] <codebeaker> on my ubuntu 10.4 system they appear to live in /etc/init/
[12:47] <codebeaker> but I've seen lots of talk online about using /etc/event.d/
[12:48] <SpamapS> they must be in /etc/init since Ubuntu 9.10
[12:48] <codebeaker> ok, good to know - thanks :)
[12:48] <codebeaker> *bow*
[12:49] <SpamapS> You may want to submit your monit job as a feature-request bug against the package if it works out for you.
[12:50] <codebeaker> not sure, it's 3 lines of code :)
[12:50] <codebeaker> (well, four now :))
[12:53] <codebeaker> SpamapS: what's your personal opinion on Monit's place in a modern hosting env
[12:53] <codebeaker> I'm basically using monit to keep my services up, because I know it well enough
[12:55] <SpamapS> Its quite suited for that, especially since it is capable of deeper monitoring than upstart's "is the process alive"
[13:02] <codebeaker> ok, perfect… so upstart to keep the system running, and monit to keep things working at the application layer
[13:04] <SpamapS> Yeah
[13:12] <wraiden> does anyone know if upstart 1.0 ist compatible wrt utmp handling when i use agetty?
[13:12] <wraiden> the teminal sessions aren't decremented in issue output anymore since i upgraded to 1.0
[13:15] <wraiden> i'll try to switch to mingetty today to check it isn't an incompatibility with util-linux's agetty as mingetty was mentioned in some changelog...
[13:15] <SpamapS> doesn't login handle utmp maintenance?
[13:17] <wraiden> looks like it doesn't if i read the changes that went in from plautrbach correctly...
[13:18] <wraiden> mybe i have a wrong tty.conf in /etc/init
[13:18] <SpamapS> ahh I'm looking now.. ok.. utmp is indeed touched by init now
[13:18] <SpamapS> I say now like I know it didn't before.. maybe it did before.. :p
[13:19] <wraiden> the problem was that issue incremented the open tty session counters but doesnt decremented it after the loginsession was closed and upstart respawned the getty ...
[13:20] <wraiden> this bug was in upstart from the start i think
[13:20] <wraiden> don't know how sysv handled it
[13:20] <plautrba> wraiden: can you paste somewhere 'utmpdump /var/run/utmp' ?
[13:20] <SpamapS> right looks like now if a job process terminates upstart looks in utmp and fixes it
[13:20] <plautrba> wraiden: afaik it should work regardless of used *getty
[13:21] <wraiden> hello :) i'll open a session to the box an paste the things...
[13:24] <wraiden> http://pastebin.com/LfDLA8hR
[13:25] <wraiden> cant look at the issue output right now as i'm not in front of the box
[13:33] <plautrba> this looks ok, what is concretely your problem?
[13:35] <wraiden> if i login an a local tty the issue displays the logged in users ok but if i logout the logged in users stay the same and doesn't get decremented
[13:36] <wraiden> this behavor war fixed in the first round of patches that you attached to the bugreport ...
[13:37] <wraiden> i tested them and used them as patches against 0.6 but with the upgrade to version 1.0 i went back to the buggy behavior
[13:38] <wraiden> i'll post another utmp dunp when i have access to the box again around 18:30 CET
[13:39] <plautrba> in 1.0 is almost same patch
[13:40] <plautrba> and utmp table says that there is 2 correctly restarted local tty session, 1 closed remote, and 1 active remote session
[13:41] <wraiden> thats right
[13:41] <plautrba> command 'w' should show one logged user
[13:41] <wraiden> i rebooted the box
[13:41] <wraiden> kernel upgrade...
[13:41] <wraiden> the wrong behavior was befor the reboot
[13:42] <wraiden> i'll repro the wron output and post an updated dump
[13:42] <wraiden> should i mail it or crate a bug report?
[13:43] <plautrba> mail to mailling list or bug report are fine, or you can first try to ping me here
[13:43] <wraiden> k, will look here first
[13:44] <wraiden> anyway, thanks for your work about utmp handling, this one bugged me a long time :)
[13:44] <plautrba> i've just setup my fedora rawhide box to use aggety and it works ok
[13:44] <wraiden> exec /sbin/agetty -I '\033(K' tty1 38400
[13:44] <wraiden> is what i use
[13:44] <wraiden> maybe it's related to that
[13:46] <plautrba> I use only /sbin/agetty /dev/tty6 38400  but -I should not affects that
[13:48] <wraiden> i'll repro the problem tonight and post the details along the dump...
[22:34] <atpa8a> hello!
[22:34] <atpa8a> i'm binding slapd to an ip alias and it seems that aliases come up late on boot which causes slapd fail to start... can i start networking "syncronously" or something?
[22:44] <Keybuk> no, but you can have slapd start after networking
[22:47] <atpa8a> i think that's how it's configured...
[22:47] <atpa8a> or should i create /etc/init/slapd.conf for that?
[22:48] <Keybuk> you would need an /etc/init/slapd.conf or something in Upstart that starts slapd
[22:48] <atpa8a> i don't have that right now
[22:48] <atpa8a> just learning upstart
[22:49] <atpa8a> thought it was related to insserv
[22:55] <atpa8a> hmm
[22:56] <atpa8a> so slapd is not an upstart job right now
[22:56] <atpa8a> which means it's handled from /etc/init/rc.conf, right?
[22:56] <mbiebl> no, /etc/init.d/slapd
[22:57] <atpa8a> true :) i misspoke
[22:57] <mbiebl> atpa8a: only indirectly via /etc/init/rc.conf
[22:57] <atpa8a> right
[22:57] <atpa8a> that's what i meant
[22:58] <atpa8a> can i just add something like start on (net-device-up...) to /etc/init/rc.conf to make sure the networking is up before anything else?
[23:01] <atpa8a> or change /etc/init/rc-sysinit.conf from 'start on filesystem and net-device-up IFACE=lo' to 'start on filesystem and net-device-up'
[23:03] <atpa8a> basically i want *all* of the network up before slapd starts
[23:14] <atpa8a> that didn't help
[23:15] <atpa8a> any hints?


[15:00] <barry> #startmeeting
[15:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry.
[15:00] <barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewer's meeting.  who's here today?
[15:00] <bigjools> me
[15:00] <EdwinGrubbs> me
[15:00] <sinzui> me
[15:00] <deryck> me
[15:00] <henninge> me
[15:00] <mars> me
[15:00] <noodles775> me
[15:00] <henninge> jtv sends his apologies but he does need to sleep sometime ... ;-)
[15:01] <intellectronica> me
[15:01] <danilos> me
[15:01] <barry> adeuring: ping
[15:02] <adeuring> whoops, me
[15:02] <barry> allenap: ping
[15:02] <leonardr> me
[15:02] <barry> bac: ping
[15:02] <barry> BjornT: ping
[15:02] <allenap> barry: I'm on holiday this week.
[15:02] <gary_poster> me
[15:02] <flacoste> me
[15:02] <danilos> allenap: never mind that, you can lead the meeting :)
[15:02] <danilos> cprov: you?
[15:02] <mars> lol
[15:02] <cprov> me
[15:03] <BjornT> me
[15:03] <bac> me
[15:04]  * barry hates irc
[15:05] <barry> i'm just going to assume everyone here :)
[15:05] <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
[15:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[15:05] <barry>  * Roll call
[15:05] <barry>  * Action items
[15:05] <barry>  * Mentoring update
[15:05] <barry>  * Including js script tags conditionally
[15:05] <barry>  * ReST headers in doctests -- gmb
[15:05] <barry>  * Permission explosions -- flacoste
[15:05] <barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:05] <barry> [TOPIC] action items
[15:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[15:05] <barry>  * gary_poster to take importfascist and rSP() discussion to ml
[15:05] <gary_poster> barry: I will do that in the next week or we will take it off the list.
[15:06] <gary_poster> my apologies
[15:06] <barry> gary_poster: no worries.  thanks
[15:06] <barry>  * intellectronica to email list about higher JS branch limits
[15:06] <intellectronica> i did
[15:06] <barry> intellectronica: yep, thanks!
[15:06] <barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
[15:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
[15:07] <barry> any feedback from our mentors or mentats?
[15:08] <barry> guess not :)
[15:08] <deryck> it's been going fine for me, not that that's much feedback. :)
[15:08] <barry> deryck: great to hear
[15:08] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Including js script tags conditionally
[15:08] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Including js script tags conditionally
[15:08] <barry> sorry, i forget who added this one
[15:08] <deryck> barry, I did, per a review you did of my branch.
[15:09] <barry> deryck: right!  it's been one of those weeks ;)
[15:09] <barry> deryck: take it away deryck the orchestra leader!
[15:09] <deryck> This is Just as a reminder to all that we should only include script tags when in devmode, so that we don't load js twice.
[15:10] <deryck> scripts are concat'ed into launchpad.js, so be careful of this, and watch for it in reviews.
[15:10] <abentley> me (sorry I'm late)
[15:10] <barry> deryck: can you describe the tal you used to load that conditionally?
[15:10] <gmb> me
[15:11] <deryck> barry, just a <tal:devmode condition="devmode"> with the scripts in that block.
[15:11] <flacoste> deryck: can it be added to the JS wiki page?
[15:11] <sinzui> The yahoo calendar widget is not in the compressed yui file, which does require a conditional in the head-epilogue.
[15:11] <deryck> flacoste, sure, I can do that.
[15:11] <barry> deryck: thanks
[15:11] <deryck> np :)
[15:12] <sinzui> Is it possible to get that script into something that is away "on"
[15:12] <flacoste> sinzui: can't we just add it?
[15:13] <sinzui> flacoste: I was tempted to do so last night. I'm not sure if the separation is historical or YUI2. I think I need a pre-imp call to understand the issue
[15:13] <flacoste> sinzui: let's have a pre-impl call later
[15:13] <sinzui> fab
[15:13] <barry> cool.  anything else on this topic?
[15:14] <barry> [TOPIC]  * ReST headers in doctests -- gmb
[15:14] <MootBot> New Topic:   * ReST headers in doctests -- gmb
[15:14] <gmb> Ah.
[15:14] <gmb> So, this came up on Monday.
[15:14] <gmb> First there was some confusion about whether we should use ReST or Moin style headers in  doctests.
[15:14] <barry> rest
[15:15] <gmb> Then, when bigjools and I had confirmed we should be using ReST, no one could remember why we had changed back to ReST from Moin
[15:15] <barry> but existing pages can be changed as you go, low priority
[15:15] <gmb> (having gone from ReST to Moin some time before)
[15:15] <sinzui> lp-dev-util/formatdoctest -p path/to/tests/*.txt will fix many. Edwin pointed out though the script uses the headers I use from gedit doctests. we can tweak the script to use gary's headers
[15:15] <gmb> barry: Right, but the point is that people are still confused about this, and the reasons for the change don't seem to have been communicated effectively.
[15:15] <barry> gmb: we're trying to standardize on rest since that's basically what the python community has standardized on
[15:15] <flacoste> well, they were
[15:15] <flacoste> but
[15:16] <flacoste> we didn't follow-through
[15:16] <flacoste> the idea is that there are no tools to process Moin syntax
[15:16] <flacoste> and we aren't really using Moin syntax at all anyway
[15:16] <gary_poster> I guess.  trying to make it casual and low-pain means that people didn't notice or remember
[15:16] <gary_poster> that is, I guess we didn't follow through
[15:17] <flacoste> the idea was to have a sphinx easy setup to browse all the doctests
[15:17] <sinzui> I think salgado or bac have test cleanup listed among their objectives. rs=sinzui to run the script and land the branch
[15:17] <flacoste> as a start
[15:17] <flacoste> and then start organizing it
[15:17] <flacoste> that's what we didn't follow-through on
[15:17] <gary_poster> that test cleanup sounds cool
[15:17] <gary_poster> I see
[15:18] <salgado> me
[15:18] <barry> it would also be nice if we could start using rest in our wikis :)
[15:18] <sinzui> salgado: are you late or volunteering to update all tests to ReST headers
[15:18] <gary_poster> or both! :-)
[15:18] <salgado> just late!
[15:19] <barry> flacoste, sinzui  can we put some action items on the list for this?  or is it all just so background/low priority that we won't get to it any time soon?
[15:19] <abentley> barry: We can start using rest in our wikis.
[15:19] <barry> abentley: really?  well, that would be cool.  also in our merge proposal cover letters :)
[15:20] <abentley> barry: Sure, moin has supported rest for years.
[15:20] <flacoste> barry: yeah, it's not really a priority at the moment
[15:20] <sinzui> barry: I can do it within the next 3 weeks. I will create a bug about it since I think we want to codify the header style in the script
[15:21] <flacoste> standardizing on what the python community uses is sufficient in itself imho
[15:21] <barry> flacoste, sinzui, abentley cool.  so, gmb does that answer the question? :)
[15:21] <flacoste> especially since it means that's what we are using in the lazr packages
[15:21] <flacoste> because of PyPi
[15:21] <gmb> barry: Yes, thank you. I'll update the style guid to include some details as to the whys and wherefores.
[15:21] <gmb> *guide
[15:21] <barry> gmb: awesome, thanks
[15:21] <abentley> barry: Just specify #FORMAT rst  at the top.
[15:22] <barry> [ACTION] gmb to update style guides to clarify why we're standardizing on rest
[15:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  gmb to update style guides to clarify why we're standardizing on rest
[15:22] <sinzui> BTW I had a merge conflict into lazr.restful because the headers in the tests are different
[15:22] <barry> abentley: rock.  i will try that when i update the minutes of this meeting :)
[15:22] <barry> gmb: thanks, anything else on this topic?
[15:22] <gmb> Nope.
[15:22] <gmb> That's all.
[15:23] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Permission explosions -- flacoste
[15:23] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Permission explosions -- flacoste
[15:23] <flacoste> ok
[15:23] <flacoste> this is a reminder
[15:23] <flacoste> we should try to minimize the number of special permissions
[15:23] <flacoste> so in reviews, everytime you see somebody define a new permission
[15:24] <flacoste> you should ask why one of the regular one isn't used
[15:24] <flacoste> the model is
[15:24] <flacoste> View -> Append -> Edit -> Admin
[15:24] <flacoste> there is also the Moderate permission which sits above Append at the level of Edit
[15:24] <flacoste> those are our core permissions
[15:25] <flacoste> now, if you look at permissions.zcml, you'll see that there are a lot of other special permissions
[15:25] <flacoste> sometimes these are unvoidable, but many times they are not
[15:25] <flacoste> for example, the ProjectReview special permission was introduced recentely
[15:26] <flacoste> i think there is no reason why launchpad.Moderate couldn't have been used there
[15:26] <flacoste> so as reviewer, be though on the introduction of new permission
[15:26] <barry> flacoste: do we have any plans to do an audit and clean up of those special permissions?
[15:26] <bac> flacoste: i'll follow up with you to clean that one up
[15:27] <flacoste> yeah, i think we'll need to do an audit at some point and see if we can remove some of those
[15:27] <flacoste> but starting with a lock-down will make the audit easier :-)
[15:27] <barry> flacoste: cool
[15:27] <flacoste> i'll update the reviewers checklist with this reminder
[15:28] <flacoste> not sure if that page is still checked often though
[15:28] <barry> flacoste: also, what is the root cause for adding new special permissions?  is it because we don't (as a group) have a good understanding of how the existing permissions work?
[15:28] <flacoste> some of that
[15:28] <flacoste> but also, the way permissions are mapped to roles is kind of ad-hoc
[15:28] <flacoste> (through the IAuthorization interface)
[15:29] <flacoste> you have to inspect code to understand who get to do what
[15:29] <flacoste> where
[15:30] <barry> flacoste: which isn't really feasible when you're working out a new feature
[15:30] <mars> flacoste, so, would centralizing the permissions and capabilities of each make them easier to use?
[15:30] <flacoste> they are already kind of centralised
[15:30] <flacoste> in one file
[15:30] <flacoste> but that's not the way things work
[15:30] <flacoste> permission are granted on a per-context level
[15:31] <flacoste> that's why it's possible to not define new ones
[15:31] <flacoste> but reuse the semantics of existing ones
[15:31] <flacoste> for example, i think the Moderate permission is really only defined on the Question object
[15:32] <flacoste> which means it's easy to reuse the semantic for project review
[15:33] <barry> flacoste: maybe a brief overview (largely what you wrote above) would be useful in the dev wiki?  could you add that when you update the reviewer docs?
[15:33] <flacoste> sure
[15:33] <barry> flacoste: thanks!
[15:34] <barry> [ACTION] flacoste to update reviewer docs and dev wiki re: permission implosion
[15:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  flacoste to update reviewer docs and dev wiki re: permission implosion
[15:34] <flacoste> explosion!
[15:34] <flacoste> proliferation
[15:34] <flacoste> whatever
[15:34] <flacoste> eot
[15:34] <barry> :)
[15:34] <barry> flacoste: thanks, great topic
[15:34] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:34] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:34] <barry> okay, the floor is open, does anybody have anything else?
[15:34] <intellectronica> i wanted to talk briefly about generating js
[15:34] <barry> intellectronica: go ahead
[15:35] <intellectronica> from time to time you'll need to generate javascript code and values to embed in a page
[15:35] <intellectronica> say, when you want to initialise a widget or call a function using values you have when you render the page
[15:35] <intellectronica> two important things to remember:
[15:36] <intellectronica> 1. avoid using zpt for doing that. it's clumsy and hard to maintain. do the work in the view code in python, expose it as a property and include it in the template
[15:37] <intellectronica> 2. always use simplejson to serialize python values into javascript code. it's so easy to do, and you have no chance of getting better result by preparing the string yourself
[15:37] <intellectronica> that's it
[15:37] <barry> intellectronica: thanks very much.  i learned this lesson the hard way (and thanks for your patch :)
[15:38] <mars> intellectronica, is there a specific pattern we have to follow to get the <script> tag and it's contents in there from the view?  Because zpt tries to "help" with script tags...
[15:38] <sinzui> I am tempted to try a 3rd way, the view reads the initialization script, adds the setup values and exposes it as a property so that the JS is not in the python
[15:38] <noodles775> sinzui: +1
[15:39] <intellectronica> mars: <script tal:content="structure view/js_code" /> should do the trick, i think
[15:39] <barry> sinzui: i'm not sure i understand, can you clarify?
[15:39] <intellectronica> sinzui: please explain more. i don't understand
[15:39] <sinzui> I am hesitant to start this because I want to ensure there are sane values in the initialization script for YUI-test
[15:39] <noodles775> I'm finding it hard to see a case where you'd need to generate js, rather than the js initialising from classes/content on the page (but just point me where)
[15:40] <barry> sinzui: if you'd like to defer to next week or the ml, that's cool
[15:40] <intellectronica> noodles775: yes, that's another way to do that. still you have to put these values in the page
[15:41] <noodles775> intellectronica: yes, but that can be done semantically (so the page represents the state that the JS initialises from)
[15:41] <sinzui> intellectronica: I will follow up on the list. I just want the keep js and python and html separated.
[15:41] <intellectronica> noodles775: i don't understand. i think you guys are ahead of me
[15:42] <intellectronica> sinzui: cool, i look forward
[15:42] <barry> sinzui: it's the intersection of those three axes of evil where things get interesting
[15:42] <noodles775> intellectronica: no, I probably just haven't seen an example where it's required. I'll watch for the mailing list discussion too :)
[15:42] <sinzui> interesting? you mean "knives out".
[15:42] <mars> sinzui, I would love to see a more in-depth statement of the problem, issues, solution, and how it might address them on the list
[15:42] <barry> :)
[15:42] <barry> sinzui:  thanks.  we have 3 minutes left so moving that to the ml would be great
[15:43] <barry> any last minute items?  otherwise, we're done
[15:43] <barry> 5
[15:44] <barry> 4
[15:44] <barry> 3
[15:44] <barry> 2
[15:44] <barry> 1
[15:44] <barry> #endmeeting
[15:44] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:44.
[15:44] <barry> thanks everyone, great meeting today
[15:44] <abentley> barry: Thanks!
[23:27] <barry> #startmeeting
[23:27] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:27. The chair is barry.
[23:27] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:27] <barry> #endmeeting
[23:27] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:27.
[23:30] <barry> #startmeeting
[23:30] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:30. The chair is barry.
[23:30] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:30] <barry> jml, thumper, mwhudson ping
[23:30] <jml> hi
[23:30] <mwhudson> hi!
[23:30] <thumper> jo
[23:31] <barry> how are y'all doing?  earthquake + tsunami didn't bother you did it?
[23:31] <thumper> didn't even feel it
[23:31] <mwhudson> given the magnitude it seems to have caused amazingly little damage
[23:31] <mwhudson> and only a baby tsunami
[23:31] <barry> good to hear!
[23:32] <barry> i had a friend from pittsburgh who moved to san fran describe his first earthquake
[23:32] <barry> said, "they always tell you never run outside".  when it first hit, he said he found himself outside before he even knew what was going on ;)
[23:33] <mwhudson> (the epicentre really is in the ass-end of nowhere too, that helps)
[23:33] <jml> the epicentre is in Palmy? :P
[23:33] <mwhudson> hah
[23:34] <barry> inside joke? :)
[23:34] <barry> anyway...
[23:34] <mwhudson> i live in palmy
[23:34] <barry> oh :)
[23:34] <mwhudson> it's not the most exciting place in the universe
[23:34] <mwhudson> indeed, anyway...
[23:34] <barry> do you guys have burning issues, or do you want me to start with a review of ameu?
[23:34] <mwhudson> review of ameu sounds good
[23:35] <jml> review please
[23:35] <jml> all issues have been safely coated in asbestos
[23:35] <barry> lessee...
[23:35] <barry> deryck brought up an issue from a review about only loading javascript files in devmode, since in prod they're always included in launchpad.js
[23:36] <barry> he'll write about that in the js wiki page
[23:36] <barry> gmb brought up a question about doctest format, moin or rest, but since you guys all hate doctests, i guess that one doesn't matter :)
[23:37] <mwhudson> well
[23:37] <mwhudson> if our documentation is going to be written in some markup
[23:37] <mwhudson> it would be nice if this was used somehow
[23:37] <barry> mwhudson: we're rest all the way baby!
[23:38] <mwhudson> i don't really have an opinion on moin vs rest, pick one and stick to it though
[23:38] <barry> but existing doctests can be updated as we go
[23:38] <barry> definitely rest, for a host of reasons outlined in the detailed minutes
[23:38] <barry> gmb will update the relevant wiki pages
[23:38] <mwhudson> if we setup a sphinx-y type thing somewhere and actually use it, it might encourage us to make our doctests better documentation
[23:38] <mwhudson> (gasp!)
[23:38] <barry> i've also filed an rt to get our dev wiki to support rest
[23:39] <barry> mwhudson: +1 is not plussy enough
[23:39] <jml> barry, if Launchpad gets a wiki, do you anticipate *it* supporting rest?
[23:39] <barry> jml: i do
[23:39] <barry> at least
[23:39] <thumper> we're going to hand craft a wiki aren't we?
[23:40] <thumper> I thought we were going to build one on bzrlib
[23:40] <barry> thumper: that's been on the wishlist for at least 2 years
[23:40] <jml> like someone has already done with Hg :(
[23:40] <thumper> right
[23:40] <barry> :(
[23:40] <jml> gosh that was disappointing watching that lightning talk at europython and thinking "we've had this idea for at least two years now"
[23:41] <jml> anyway
[23:41] <barry> last review item: flacoste brought up the issue of "permission explosion", the tendency to create too many special permissions
[23:41] <barry> instead of reusing the core ones
[23:41] <thumper> barry: for example?
[23:41] <barry> thumper: let me get my notes...
[23:42] <jml> barry, presumably flacoste noticed this trend by inspecting our highly auditable zcml or perhaps looking at a permission control panel? :P
[23:42] <barry> Jul 15 10:23:44 <flacoste>	we should try to minimize the number of special permissions
[23:42] <barry> Jul 15 10:23:59 <flacoste>	so in reviews, everytime you see somebody define a new permission
[23:42] <barry> Jul 15 10:24:07 <flacoste>	you should ask why one of the regular one isn't used
[23:42] <barry> Jul 15 10:24:12 <flacoste>	the model is
[23:42] <barry> Jul 15 10:24:22 <flacoste>	View -> Append -> Edit -> Admin
[23:42] <barry> Jul 15 10:24:41 <flacoste>	there is also the Moderate permission which sits above Append at the level of Edit
[23:42] <jml> (sorry, I think I prepared the coffee extra bitter this morning).
[23:42] <barry> Jul 15 10:24:52 <flacoste>	those are our core permissions
[23:43] <barry> Jul 15 10:25:19 <flacoste>	now, if you look at permissions.zcml, you'll see that there are a lot of other special permissions
[23:43] <barry> Jul 15 10:25:38 <flacoste>	sometimes these are unvoidable, but many times they are not
[23:43] <barry> Jul 15 10:25:57 <flacoste>	for example, the ProjectReview special permission was introduced recentely
[23:43] <barry> Jul 15 10:26:07 <flacoste>	i think there is no reason why launchpad.Moderate couldn't have been used there
[23:43] <barry> Jul 15 10:26:28 <flacoste>	so as reviewer, be though on the introduction of new permission
[23:43] <thumper> we have an Append permission?
[23:43] <jml> yeah.
[23:44] <thumper> huh
[23:44] <thumper> didn't know that
[23:44] <mwhudson> i was more or less aware of this point
[23:44] <barry> flacoste will update the relevant wiki pages with details
[23:44] <jml> neither did I.
[23:44] <jml> barry, and how would we *find* the relevant wiki pages?
[23:44] <mwhudson> i haven't reviewed or written any code to do with permissions in ages though
[23:44] <barry> jml: they should be on the dev wiki <wink>
[23:45] <jml> well that narrows it down :\
[23:45] <barry> foundations also wants to audit and simplify our permissions
[23:45] <barry> jml: yeah
[23:45] <barry> anyway, that's all i have from ameu.  what's on your mind?
[23:45] <mwhudson> well at least there's less obsolete crap on the dev wiki than launchpad.c.c
[23:45] <jml> yeah. that's a very good thing.
[23:46] <thumper> I don't have anything just now
[23:46] <mwhudson> nothing in particular
[23:46] <thumper> apart from a general ORM annoyance
[23:46] <barry> we need some interns to garden our wikis :)
[23:46] <thumper> w.r.t. permissions
[23:46] <jml> nothing from me, apart from general build process annoyance :)
[23:46] <mwhudson> the usual trepidation about how we're all supposed to be focused on a not-yet designed ui
[23:46] <jml> barry, with respect, no.
[23:47] <barry> jml: you don't like interns?
[23:47] <jml> barry, we need a little bit of bootstrapping to put some kind of structure in place, and we need developers to be dissatisfied with simply getting an answer to their question.
[23:48] <barry> jml: yeah.  but wiki editing is pretty low on people's list of things to do
[23:49] <mwhudson> there's something about wiki editing that always infuriates me
[23:49] <jml> barry, it's not wiki editing, it's working in a distributed team.
[23:49] <mwhudson> "edit this section" like media wiki would help, i think
[23:49] <barry> mwhudson: the fact that textarea sucks?
[23:50] <mwhudson> barry: partly yeah
[23:50] <jml> mwhudson, +1
[23:50] <barry> that would be nice.  it's all text does make things a bit better (not great though)
[23:51] <barry> well, that's all i have anyway
[23:51] <jml> likewise.
[23:51] <mwhudson> if we end up with sphinx for our documentation, we should use that more and the wiki less maybe>
[23:51] <mwhudson> ?
[23:51] <mwhudson> but enough directionless rambling on this topic
[23:51]  * mwhudson is done
[23:51] <barry> mwhudson:  possibly.  i'm digging sphinx a lot lately
[23:52] <barry> cool.  i guess we're done.  thanks guys
[23:52] <barry> #endmeeting
[23:52] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:52.
[23:52] <jml> thanks barry


[17:20] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfmpc 0.3.1 released<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:20] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-dict 0.8.5 released @ http://www.mail-archive.com/xfce-announce@xfce.org/msg00839.html


[06:49] <RAOF> Oh, what? We don't have an event time in all our events?
[17:32] <bschaefer> kgunn, hey, so that stacktrace you sent me on friday was a bit strange....as it was under the assumption that OPENGL was available on the phone?
[17:32] <bschaefer> kgunn, ill have to get my N7 flashed, and hope it still works with unity8
[17:33] <bschaefer> thanks for testing it out!
[21:03] <kgunn> mterry: did we fix your osk not catching events bug with latest mir-devel ?
[21:03] <kgunn> (assuming you've got a rebuilt mir-dev branch in the silo...)
[21:03] <mterry> kgunn, uh, haven't tested whole stack yet, we haven't rebuilt everything in silo
[21:03] <kgunn> mterry: i figured...
[21:04] <kgunn> still trudging through build order and mir api changes i suppose
[21:04] <kgunn> racarr: ^
[21:05] <kgunn> mterry: did you need a hand updating u-s-c to latest mir api ?
[21:05] <mterry> kgunn, no, I think I did
[21:06] <mterry> just took a while to rebuild everything on my phone so I could confirm it built right
[21:09] <racarr> Ok!
[21:09] <racarr> ust making sure it doesnt get lost
[21:10] <kgunn> bregma: i recall you had a local fix for the qt5.2 shader trouble to render...but did you have yet another problem ? (for desktop preview ?)
[21:11] <kgunn> robert was just asking if the cursor changes worked...but i'm thinking we still don't knwo
[22:13] <bregma> kgunn, everything is fine (mir-wise) in the desktop preview, cursor works swimmingly on one of my machines (not the other, but it appears to be a bizarre packaging problem not a software problem)
[22:18] <racarr> Yay
[22:19] <RAOF> Woot!
[22:20] <racarr> demo render surfaces is kind o insane...
[22:23] <racarr> I guess not insane there is just a lot of stuf
[22:23] <racarr> f


[00:24] <diddledan> ali1234: interesting, I wonder what the problem is
[00:24] <daftykins> :D
[00:24]  * diddledan kicks it
[00:24] <ali1234> the game works beautifully in single player :)
[00:24] <diddledan> then there's no problem :-p
[00:24] <diddledan> it works fine! except online..
[00:25] <ali1234> did you maybe build it from a random git snapshot?
[00:25] <daftykins> he has a dartboard, so i'm told
[00:32] <diddledan> lemme check what I used
[00:33] <diddledan> I pulled it from: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/archive/release-20171014.tar.gz and compiled that
[00:35] <daftykins> diddledan: did you find Frasier yet!?
[00:38] <diddledan> not yet. been busy
[00:38] <diddledan> and jetlagged
[00:38] <daftykins> :>
[00:38] <diddledan> I'm on the coffee today so I'm a bit buzzy :-p
[00:38] <daftykins> do all the things!
[07:55] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[09:10] <zmoylan-pi> o/
[09:11] <brobostigon> o/
[09:11] <foobarry> macbook air won't turn on ALTHOUGH it did at one point last week. tried the magic reset PRAM , SRAM etc to no avail. any suggestions?
[09:12] <foobarry> seems temperamental
[10:14] <foobarry> bitcoin spam is the new thing i see.
[11:18] <zmoylan-pi> the main one that sticks out for me is how obamacare is going away and i need to sign up for trumpcare...
[11:19] <zmoylan-pi> meanwhile in techsupport land... https://imgur.com/gallery/P191U
[11:22] <foobarry> the top pic, i did that recently
[11:22] <foobarry> with infiniband cables that were hard to remove
[11:24] <foobarry> sometimes it needs to be done if they are plumbed between racks
[11:24] <SuperMatt> D:
[11:27] <zmoylan-pi> did you learn nothing from star trek?! you're supposed to have human sized conduits for all the cables :-)
[11:35] <SuperMatt> Jeffries tubes ftw
[11:36] <foobarry> some guy have cable tied the cables every 6 inches
[11:36] <foobarry> to the rack
[11:36] <foobarry> it was never coming out
[11:37] <zmoylan-pi> you were using the wrong tool.  you find the eejit who did that and use your cluestick every hour till the cables are gone :-P
[11:38] <foobarry> i suspect the rack came pre built
[11:38] <foobarry> there were so many cables in it , and IB cables are thick
[11:39] <zmoylan-pi> yeah, i've seen that level of you'll never have to do anything to this rack... 2 weeks later... oh bugger...
[11:39] <foobarry> i'm going back to that rack soon
[11:43] <SuperMatt> I'm so glad I don't have to deal with racking any more
[11:44] <SuperMatt> that's ${CLOUDPROVIDER}'s problem
[11:44] <foobarry> this is just for my test cluster
[11:44] <foobarry> otherwise there's a dedicated team for hardware
[11:46] <zmoylan-pi> your test cluster? 10 rasp pi in a cornflake box? :-)
[11:47] <foobarry> i have one of those too :D
[11:48] <foobarry> https://imgur.com/a/AUUL7
[11:48] <zmoylan-pi> wow, were do you buy your cornflakes? :-)
[11:56] <foobarry> cronflakes
[11:58] <SuperMatt> This is the extent of my cabling skills: https://photos.app.goo.gl/yPmX3fOjNrdR0GW22
[12:00] <zmoylan-pi> huh, a leftie... :-)
[12:00] <SuperMatt> Actually, I'm a rightie, but when we got our first computer, my brother who is a leftie set up the mouse on the left hand side. I've really known no different
[12:02] <SuperMatt> I recently tried playing some games with it on the correct side, but I just failed.
[12:02] <SuperMatt> It feels really strange
[12:31] <foobarry> you are strange
[12:39] <zmoylan-pi> this. is. i.r.c. :-)
[15:13] <SuperMatt> foobarry: it's not my fault I'm strange. I've explained my reasons!
[15:19] <daftykins> :D
[15:20] <daftykins> after my right arm was left really weak from a shoulder break, i vowed to balance my hand usage so my left wouldn't be so useless in future - it's pretty handy
[15:26] <SuperMatt> I could spend some time working on using my right hand, but *shrug* left WFM
[15:28] <daftykins> mmm less incentive when one isn't injured, but when it counts - it counts
[15:29] <daftykins> somehow i grew up using cutlery left handed but right for everything else
[15:31] <SuperMatt> Left handed for cutlery? How vulgar!
[15:31] <SuperMatt> The Queen would never accept you in her dining quarters
[15:31] <daftykins> i am but a lowly Channel Islander, so that may be guaranteed :D
[16:30] <diddledan> Morning
[16:38] <daftykins> \o
[16:38] <daftykins> https://websiteforstudents.com/configure-static-ip-addresses-on-ubuntu-18-04-beta/ - this is horrible :/
[17:06] <halt> Quick question, ( on 17.10 Gnome ) the automatic screen lock does not trigger where should I look ( I did the setup it in Settings -> Privacy -> Screen Lock )
[17:07] <daftykins> ask in #ubuntu
[17:09] <halt> was just about to, but now it's done
[17:10] <daftykins> was it off?
[17:15] <halt> it was on all the time ( as far as I can tell )
[17:30] <zmoylan-pi> editing video in linux.... is that a i do everything in linux masochistic thing? does stallman know? :-P
[17:39] <zmoylan-pi> wrong channel :-)
[17:39] <daftykins> i wondered :D
[23:03] <davmor2> Moo!
[23:06] <daftykins> \o
[23:18] <diddledan> baa


[03:14] <JackFrost> sbeattie: ...Would I be able to convince you (or maybe SRU team instead) to accept a point release rather than a targetted commit?  All new features are in master so it's mainly security fixes that get backported to the 7.2 branch.  https://github.com/atheme/atheme/releases/tag/v7.2.12 the buildsystem changes are likely the most painful, but eg the database fix would be nice-to-have too.
[10:29] <rbasak> JackFrost: I'm not sure what fixes you're referring to, but if going via the SRU team, the requirements are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#New_upstream_microreleases
[10:29] <rbasak> You mention buildsystem changes - these will probably be denied in a stable release under that policy.
[10:30] <rbasak> I can't speak for the security team, but usually they will do a cherry-pick only unless security necessitates something else.
[10:38] <JackFrost> Figured, was worth a shot though!
[10:46] <JackFrost> The other fix(es) are nice-to-have, but not part of the security release, strictly speaking.
[10:49] <amurray_> JackFrost: we (security) take the same approach as SRU - minimal patches on top of the existing version of a package, rather than a new version (even if it is a micro-version update) - there are exceptions though, same for SRU, so it would depend if a case could be made that it was *less* likely to introduce regressions etc than if backporting a patch