[00:01] <hazmat> marcoceppi, while awesome i'd still probably recommend either cloudfront or rackfiles/limelight for a true cdn
[00:01] <hazmat> cdn need points of presence for global effectiveness
[00:02] <SpamapS> hazmat: depends on your perspective. Sometimes all you really want is aggressive caching and fanout
[00:02] <SpamapS> latency is by far the *best* reason for CDN... but by no means the only one
[00:05] <niemeyer> mpl: Super, let me check
[00:05] <hazmat> SpamapS,  ec2 hosts don't really give  fanout, all a juju node for cdn amounts to is a single host.. thats a sig difference.. it can work.. but its not the same league
[00:06] <niemeyer> mpl: Very nice
[00:06] <hazmat>  /me heads out for beer o'clock
[00:06] <niemeyer> hazmat: Cheersfully!
[00:08] <_mup_> juju/go r21 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:08] <_mup_> Merged jujugo-log by branch Mathieu. [r=rog,niemeyer]
[00:08] <_mup_> This branch moves logging onto the log package so that it is
[00:08] <_mup_> usable by any of the subpackages, and simplifies/polishes the
[00:08] <_mup_> interface further.
[00:22] <_mup_> juju/scp-command r419 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:22] <_mup_> Addressed review points
[02:46] <marcoceppi> hazmat: It's not for a CDN, it's a patch for a CDN issue that needs to scale. So it's using hadoop charm with a custom charm I wrote that creates a sort of...CDN proxy...for an issue several customers are having because Cisco has rackcdn.com blacklisted in their enterprise router software
[02:49] <marcoceppi> For those customers we have our templating engines on their site switch out rackcdn.com with another DNS and the servers fetch the file from the CDN, cache it, then serve it up. Bandaid until the blacklist is lifted which could take a while
[04:35] <_mup_> juju/scp-command r420 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:35] <_mup_> PEP8/PyFlakes
[04:37] <_mup_> juju/scp-command r421 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:37] <_mup_> Updated tab completion
[04:47] <_mup_> juju/scp-command r422 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:47] <_mup_> Slim down help output
[04:48] <_mup_> juju/scp-command r423 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:48] <_mup_> PEP8
[04:53] <_mup_> juju/trunk r425 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:53] <_mup_> merge scp-command [r=fwereade,hazmat][f=720307]
[04:53] <_mup_> Implements juju scp subcommand.
[07:20] <rog> fwereade_: mornin'
[08:03] <fwereade_> rog: heyhey :)
[08:03] <rog> fwereade_: :-)
[08:04] <fwereade_> rog: hmm, you were up disturbingly early ;)
[08:04] <rog> fwereade_: it's not uncommon - i usually don't make a peep in here until i see some activitity tho'
[08:05] <fwereade_> rog, ah, yeah, I tend to follow the same sort of approach
[08:05] <rog> fwereade_: actually 7.20 *is* earlier than usual! had to go out and scrape the ice off the car.
[08:05] <fwereade_> rog, oof
[08:05] <rog> not much ice where you are... :)
[08:06] <fwereade_> rog: well, it's getting pretty cold, it's 15 now :p
[08:06] <rog> lol
[08:06] <rog> mind you, you probably don't have working central heating...
[08:07] <fwereade_> indeed not :)
[08:07] <fwereade_> actually I just realised I need to pop out for a bit
[08:07] <fwereade_> bbs :)
[08:07] <rog> c y
[08:49] <TheMue> Mio
[08:50] <TheMue> argh, moo, that's better
[09:09] <mpl> hi all
[09:28] <rog> mpl: hiya
[10:31] <fwereade_> if anyone who's written trickyish charms is around and awake, please ping me
[11:14] <fwereade_> scratch my request above
[11:52] <niemeyer> Morning all!
[11:52] <fwereade_> heya niemeyer
[11:52] <TheMue> moo
[11:55] <niemeyer> fwereade_, TheMue: Hey folks!
[11:58] <rog> niemeyer, TheMue: morning!
[12:03] <TheMue> hi rog
[12:06] <mpl> yo
[12:13] <niemeyer> rog, mpl: Hey folks
[12:16] <mainerror> Sooo! Juju Charm School today. \o/
[12:20] <niemeyer> mainerror: Ohhh, indeed!
[12:20] <mainerror> Can't wait.
[12:21] <jrgifford> niemeyer: almost forgot about that. :P
[12:21] <jrgifford> what time (UTC) is it again?
[12:23] <mainerror> My Charm drives me nuts. This CMS writes its config options into more than one file ...
[12:23] <mainerror> 15:00 UTC jrgifford.
[12:28] <rog> niemeyer: ec2-ec2test pushed. second stage merge request for ec2 now in (https://codereview.appspot.com/5449065/)
[12:28] <niemeyer> rog, mpl, TheMue: I think we should give a push to make sure all of the packages we're handling run fine on the latest weekly
[12:28] <niemeyer> rog: Already on re-review the former one
[12:28] <niemeyer> rog: Already on re-reviewing the former one
[12:29] <rog> niemeyer: i was wondering if we should let the latest weekly settle a bit before digging in
[12:30] <mainerror> What are you guys going to write in Go by the way?
[12:30] <niemeyer> mainerror: We're running an experiment to run juju on Go
[12:30] <mainerror> Oh, nice. :)
[12:31] <mainerror> Right now it is using Python, right?
[12:31] <niemeyer> mainerror: That's right
[12:31] <TheMue> niemeyer: Based on weekly? Not on r60?
[12:31] <niemeyer> TheMue: Yeah, weekly
[12:31] <mpl> niemeyer: just curious? why not using the releases instead of the weeklies?
[12:31] <niemeyer> TheMue: r60 is too old by now, and given our timeframe, there's not much benefit in sticking to it
[12:31] <niemeyer> mpl: ^
[12:31] <mpl> ok
[12:32] <TheMue> niemeyer: hmm, imho weekly is currently changing too often. but i'll look.
[12:32] <niemeyer> I suspect most of the incompatibilities for Go 1 are already in too
[12:33] <rog> TheMue: i think it's easier to update in stages rather than all at once. we haven't got a large set of users, so it's not that much problem for us currently.
[12:33] <mainerror> Oh wow! Go has GTK bindings.
[12:34] <TheMue> rog: yep, the backlog of the current weekly and the r60 is already quite large.
[12:34] <TheMue> *sigh*
[12:34] <mpl> mainerror: are you speaking of mattn ones? if so, you should know that nsf is also redoing them.
[12:34] <mainerror> Indeed. They are not 100% done yet but still a good start.
[12:34] <rog> TheMue: gofix does a lot, but it's not a panacea
[12:35] <mainerror> I see.
[12:37] <mainerror> mpl: Did he host it on Github as well? I can't find it. :/
[12:38] <mpl> mainerror: well, you'd better ask him directly on #go-nuts
[12:39] <mainerror> Oh, awesome. :)
[12:40] <TheMue> rog: i know, that's what i wrote on G+ too. i would like a r61 before go 1.
[12:40] <niemeyer> rog: What's the branch name?
[12:41] <rog> niemeyer: which branch?
[12:41] <niemeyer> rog: The one you mentioned
[12:41] <rog> niemeyer: i pointed to the codereview page.
[12:41] <rog> niemeyer: it's lp:~rogpeppe/juju/go-juju-ec2-regions
[12:41] <niemeyer> rog: Ok, I feel like I'm missing something
[12:41] <rog> i think
[12:41] <rog> the first one is go-juju-initial-ec2
[12:41] <niemeyer> rog: It says " juju/ec2: add code to accept an ec2 region in the configuration file"
[12:42] <niemeyer> rog: But there's a _lot_ in there, completely unrelated to this description
[12:42] <niemeyer> rog: Is there a pre-req missing?
[12:42] <rog> niemeyer: yes - i couldn't add it after i'd forgotten to add it first
[12:42] <rog> niemeyer: i thought you knew about the first one
[12:42] <niemeyer> rog: The first one was initial-foo, right?
[12:43] <niemeyer> rog: which we debated a lot on
[12:43] <niemeyer> rog: I haven't heard on it since?
[12:43] <rog> niemeyer: https://codereview.appspot.com/5432056/
[12:43] <rog> niemeyer: i pushed a new version which is skeleton only
[12:43] <rog> niemeyer: didn't you get the email?
[12:43] <niemeyer> rog: Ok, the last comment says "I'm doing that right now."
[12:43] <niemeyer> rog: Check the review out
[12:44] <rog> niemeyer: ah, i did another lbox propose and changed the description, and thought you'd see that
[12:44] <rog> niemeyer: anyway, there it is.
[12:44] <niemeyer> rog: Understood, thanks. I'll hack a bit on lbox today I think, to implement submit, and also to fix that problem
[12:44] <niemeyer> rog: It should mail asking for another look
[12:45] <rog> niemeyer: i think there should be a distinction between uploading, mailing and changing the description
[12:45] <niemeyer> rog: But let me review your branches first..
[12:45] <rog> niemeyer: that would be good, thanks
[12:45] <niemeyer> mpl: How's your agenda? Do you have something in mind already to work on?
[12:46] <mpl> niemeyer: nope. I haven't really had time to think about it. I'm very open to suggestions for now ;)
[12:47] <niemeyer> mpl: May I suggest you go over all of the packages for juju, goamz, gozk, and goyaml, and see if there are any incompatibilities with weekly to be fixed?
[12:47] <niemeyer> mpl: goamz has a bunch of sub-packages as well
[12:47] <niemeyer> rog: Have you merged the error fixes on goamz that you had pending, or is there some to go still?
[12:48] <rog> niemeyer: i *think* so. i'll just check
[12:49] <mpl> niemeyer: alright, will do. can't start on it right away though.
[12:49] <niemeyer> mpl: That's fine, thanks
[12:49] <niemeyer> mpl: After that, let's see if we come up with a more interesting/long task involving juju logic
[12:50] <niemeyer> mpl: These branches that rog is working on are the base, so it's a bit hard to split the workload, but with those in, it should be much easier
[12:50] <mpl> niemeyer: I'd like that. if it can involve me learning about cloud stuff, even better.
[12:50] <niemeyer> mpl: Absolutely
[12:50] <niemeyer> mpl: EC2 provider is precisely what we're working on
[12:51] <mpl> niemeyer: no worries. I surely don't want to disturb your workflow guys.
[12:51] <niemeyer> mpl: You're helping, rather than disturbing
[12:52] <mpl> psh, I know you guys have spent more time hand holding me so far than if you have done it yourself. but I'm too ashamed as it's often a necessary process.
[12:52] <mpl> *not too ashamed.
[12:53] <rog> niemeyer: have you renamed goamz/aws yet?
[12:53] <mpl> anyways, gotta run to a meeting, ttyl.
[12:53] <rog> niemeyer: that's the last of error-fixes in goamz
[12:53] <rog> mpl: see ysa
[12:53] <rog> ya
[12:53] <niemeyer> rog: Not sure.. checking
[12:53] <rog> niemeyer: it still needs pushing
[12:53] <niemeyer> mpl: Cheers!
[12:54] <niemeyer> rog: Dude.. we're doing something wrong
[12:54] <rog> niemeyer: we should probably tag r60 versions of the goamz packages so that people can still use r60 with them
[12:54] <niemeyer> Crap
[12:54] <rog> ?
[12:54] <niemeyer> rog: Yeah, precisely
[12:55] <rog> niemeyer: that's not too hard, right?
[12:55] <niemeyer> rog: That's exactly what I was talking about
[12:55] <niemeyer> rog: It's trivial
[12:55] <niemeyer> rog: But we may have broken people trying to use it
[12:55]  * niemeyer handles that right away
[12:55] <niemeyer> rog: Have you pushed the branch?
[12:55] <rog> niemeyer: which branch?
[12:55] <niemeyer> rog: goamz/aws
[12:55] <rog> niemeyer: i've pushed ec2 and s3
[12:55] <rog> niemeyer: nope
[12:56] <rog> niemeyer: i don't think i sent it for review, in fact
[12:56] <niemeyer> rog: Ok, do you have any pending changes?
[12:56] <rog> niemeyer: yes, just error fixes
[12:56] <niemeyer> rog: Ok, leave that with me then
[12:56] <niemeyer> rog: I'll fix the whole thing
[12:57] <rog> niemeyer: there are two ErrorMatches that gofix doesn't catch, otherwise it's all gofix
[12:57] <niemeyer> rog: Cool.. I'll fix that and fix the tagging
[13:00] <TheMue> anyone have experiences with go weekly and release in parallel?
[13:00] <TheMue> i would need both
[13:00] <rog> TheMue: i have them in separate directories
[13:00] <rog> TheMue: and a prefix command to run one in preference
[13:01] <rog> TheMue: http://paste.ubuntu.com/757007/
[13:01] <rog> (excuse the fact it's not bash, but i'm sure you get the idea)
[13:02] <rog> TheMue: i call it "go-release". as in: go-release goinstall foo; go-release 6g x.go
[13:02] <rog> etc
[13:02] <TheMue> ic, looks good
[13:06] <rog> niemeyer: gocheck looks like it needs an r60 tag too - it looks like the r59 version fails
[13:06] <rog> on r60
[13:07] <niemeyer> rog: Uh oh
[13:07] <niemeyer> rog: Can you pin-point which version to tag?
[13:07] <rog> niemeyer: will do
[13:07] <niemeyer> rog: Thank you
[13:11] <rog> niemeyer: ironically, it's revision 60
[13:11] <niemeyer> rog: LOL
[13:32] <rog> just off for lunch and to bake a cake, back in an hour
[13:34] <niemeyer> rog: Enjoy
[13:35] <TheMue> ... and dcc us some cake
[13:35] <niemeyer> :)
[13:43] <niemeyer> rog: I _think_ it's all sorted out
[13:43] <niemeyer> rog: In goamz, specifically
[14:17] <rog> niemeyer: cool.
[14:18] <rog> TheMue: and sorry, would've but didn't have enough bananas so the cake is only 62% the size it should've been. so none spare!
[14:20] <TheMue> rog: *deeplySigh* so I've got to find surrogate when I'm on x-mas market later with my family
[14:25] <rog> jimbaker: you know what would be really cool - if you could use scp to copy between units without involving the local machine, e.g.  juju scp wordpress/0:/etc/wordpress/config-* wordpress/1:/etc/wordpress
[14:27] <marcoceppi> Charm school soon \o/
[14:34]  * uksysadmin is ready for charm school. "How yoooou doin'?"
[14:36] <rog> niemeyer: before i continue in the same vein, do you think go-juju-initial-ec2 and go-juju-ec2-region are pointing vaguely in the right direction? if not, i'd prefer to fix those rather than carry further on the wrong way.
[14:38] <jcastro> good morning everyone!
[14:38] <jcastro> uksysadmin: thanks for stopping by, we'll start in ~20 minutes!
[14:40] <rog> niemeyer: oh cool, just got yr msg
[14:49] <uksysadmin> looking forward to charming my servers
[14:52]  * mainerror will probably be 10 minutes late
[14:53] <niemeyer> rog: Yeah, I think initial-ec2 is ready to go in with those settled
[14:53] <rog> niemeyer:
[14:53] <rog> niemeyer: cool. i've done those - i'll do the push
[14:54] <jcastro> m_3_: around?
[14:56] <mainerror> o/
[14:56] <rog> niemeyer: done.
[14:56] <niemeyer> rog: Looking
[14:57] <niemeyer> rog: patch set is unchanged
[14:57] <mpl> niemeyer: is it lp:gozk or lp:~juju/gozk/zk that you want me to check? also, fyi https://launchpad.net/gozk/zk returns a 404
[14:57] <niemeyer> rog: But it was pushed 5 minutes ago
[14:58] <niemeyer> mpl: gozk/zookeeper.. you've renamed it :-)
[14:58] <rog> niemeyer: sorry, did the publish messages, did the push to ~rogpeppe..., forgot to do the lbox propose
[14:58] <niemeyer> rog: lbox propose pushes as well, btw
[14:59] <mpl> niemeyer: yeah but maybe you wanted me to check the whole project, wasn't sure.
[14:59] <rog> niemeyer: yeah, but i've had it push to the wrong place, so i tend to do it myself to make sure
[14:59] <m_3_> jcastro: yo
[14:59] <jcastro> hi!
[14:59] <niemeyer> rog: Cool
[15:00] <niemeyer> mpl: Ah, no, just gozk/zookeeper is great already
[15:00] <rog> niemeyer: dammit, i'm too late, the diff is empty
[15:01] <marcoceppi> \m/
[15:01] <jcastro> niemeyer: rog: mind if we kick you out for the charm school?
[15:01] <rog> jcastro: no probs
[15:01] <niemeyer> jcastro: Not at all, thanks for pushing this
[15:01] <jcastro> but do idle in case there are questions!
[15:01] <jcastro> Ok, welcome everyone to the first ever #juju charm school
[15:01] <jcastro> we'll give it another minute for the stragglers to arrive
[15:01] <niemeyer> rog, mpl: => #juju-tmp
[15:01] <mpl> niemeyer: ah yes, silly me, your message pointing to that url (with zk) is from september. I had the rename the other way around in my head, sorry.
[15:02] <niemeyer> TheMue: => #juju-tmp
[15:05] <jcastro> Ok everyone.
[15:05] <jcastro> Welcome to the first ever virtual charm school!!!
[15:05] <jcastro> I am your emcee, Jorge Castro
[15:05] <jcastro> I work on the community team at Canonical on Cloud
[15:05] <jcastro> I am joined today by ....
[15:05] <m_3_> Hi all, I'm Mark Mims
[15:06] <m_3_> I'm here to help answer charm questions
[15:06] <jcastro> ok
[15:06] <jcastro> so first off, we'd like to see who's here to learn, so everyone who is here for charm school, raise your hand and give us a one line description of yourself
[15:06] <medberry> o/
[15:06] <ivoks> \o
[15:07] <marcoceppi> o/ I love juju
[15:07] <TheMue> o/
[15:07] <nijaba> o/ (just a pm having a look)
[15:07] <chute> o/
[15:07] <ahs3> o/
[15:08] <uksysadmin> o/ interested in learning how to deploy cloud environments in (as well as bare metal provisioning of) OpenStack
[15:08] <jcastro> oh nice one. :)
[15:08] <jcastro> ok so first, before we get into details on charms
[15:09] <jcastro> let me arm you with some docs and links, that you can reference
[15:09] <jcastro> first off, obviously, we have: https://juju.ubuntu.com/ and https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs
[15:09] <jcastro> which is where we centralize all the information on juju
[15:09] <jcastro> for news about juju and the latest charms, we put that on http://cloud.ubuntu.com
[15:10] <jcastro> for example yesterday someone submitted a status.net charm
[15:10] <jcastro> http://cloud.ubuntu.com/2011/12/deploying-status-net-quickly-with-juju/
[15:10] <jcastro> We like to heavily talk about new charms
[15:10] <jcastro> because while juju is an amazing tool, it's the charms that make it useful
[15:10] <jcastro> in the same way that you might love apt, but you really love the huge repository that comes along with it
[15:11] <jcastro> so we're running these sessions to help people write charms for things they care about.
[15:11] <jcastro> So, before we get into the anatomy of a charm
[15:11] <jcastro> does anyone have any questions so far?
[15:11] <jcastro> hopefully you understand enough about juju to grasp the concepts.
[15:11] <jcastro> but if you don't, we can get you started on the right road.
[15:11] <medberry> how does one charm a package to use mysql when the current package has depends for a locally installed mysql?
[15:12] <medberry> erm, to use the mysql on another box....
[15:12] <fmo> Do you consider juju ready for production environments?
[15:12] <jcastro> medberry: mark is answering yours now
[15:12] <jcastro> fmo: we consider it a tech preview in 11.10
[15:13] <m_3_> medberry: so the key here is to write a relation hook for your service
[15:13] <fmo> Thank you, it's a bit out of scope but is it the same for Orchestra?
[15:13] <jcastro> fmo: it's at the stage where you would start to look at it for 12.04ish timeframe deployment.
[15:13] <m_3_> medberry: that relation hook would essentially reconfigure your app to point to the remote mysql instance
[15:14] <medberry> nod. m_3, thanks. Is there an example charm (off the top of your head) I should refer to that does this?
[15:14] <m_3_> medberry: it does this by exchanging crediential info for a db with the mysql charm
[15:14] <jcastro> fmo: Not quite sure on orchestra but I /believe/ it's at the same level, though orchestra bundles some things that are already mature, like squid, etc.
[15:14] <ivoks> m_3_: but you would still end up with unused mysql-server running on 'app' node, wouldn't it? i think this is a packaging bug
[15:14] <fmo> thank you :)
[15:14] <m_3_> lots of charms connect to mysql this way... mediawiki would be a good one
[15:15] <medberry> fmo, I believe you can consider Orchestra more mature than Juju and ready for deployments.  zul may know more.
[15:15] <medberry> m_3_, thanks, I'll look at it (and others)
[15:15] <m_3_> ivoks: your relation hook could pass debconf info and dpkg-reconfig the package though
[15:15] <ivoks> m_3_: right, thanks
[15:15] <m_3_> ivoks: so what you would do depends on the interface exposed by the package itself
[15:16]  * medberry was thinking specifically of moodle if someone wants the context.
[15:16] <jcastro> oh are you working on moodle?
[15:16] <jcastro> that would be great!
[15:16]  * m_3_ grins
[15:17] <jcastro> ok, this brings me to the next quick topic, who has written a charm already? and who is planning on working on one?
[15:17]  * nijaba plans on doing one for limesurvey
[15:17] <jcastro> and does anyone have an itch to scratch to work on a certain charm?
[15:17] <uksysadmin> o/ as far as getting a basic something going (like nginx behind haproxy) to try and understand the concepts
[15:18] <ivoks> o/ postfix-dovecot
[15:18] <ivoks> (as soon as i find time :)
[15:18] <nijaba> (same here)
[15:18] <marcoceppi> o/ finishing phpmyadmin and steam
[15:19] <jcastro> (steam in this context is being able to quickly deploy a steam server for game clients to connect)
[15:19] <medberry> jcastro, yep, and someone has pointed out in O and P moodle only has a recommends on the server bits (not a depends like in Lucid.)
[15:20] <jcastro> o/ I'm working on an alice IRC charm, which is a self hosted web irc client.
[15:20] <jcastro> ok, so let's start with looking at the anatomy of a charm
[15:20] <medberry> marcoceppi, I saw that Aleph One was just released fully open source...
[15:21]  * marcoceppi nods
[15:21] <jcastro> but before we start a charm
[15:21] <jcastro> you need to map out what you want your charm to do
[15:22] <jcastro> https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/write-charm.html#have-a-plan
[15:22] <jcastro> in this document we outline some tips in the things you need to think about when planning out how to write your first charm.
[15:22] <jcastro> usually I make a quick mindmap of what I need
[15:22] <jcastro> so for example
[15:22] <jcastro> status.net
[15:23] <jcastro> I know I'll need mysql
[15:23] <mainerror> o/ - I'm a juju fanboy.
[15:23]  * mainerror is also late
[15:23] <jcastro> and that the charm would have a relationship with mysql
[15:23] <hazmat>  /join #juju-tmp
[15:23] <jcastro> http://charms.kapilt.com/interfaces/mysql
[15:23] <m_3_> http://pad.ubuntu.com/charmschool-2011-12-02
[15:23] <jcastro> I can then see what other programs use mysql
[15:24] <jcastro> this is useful because now I can look at other LAMP projects and use that to build my charm
[15:24] <jcastro> which is what we want, reuse.
[15:24] <jcastro> So you can use the charm browser to look for other services that have relationships with services you care about
[15:24] <jcastro> The guy who wrote the status.net charm just derived it from his last LAMP charm
[15:25] <jcastro> part time, it was only 2 days from first cut to being accepted into the charm school
[15:25] <jcastro> and Marco/Clint are working on some convenience tools to make common tasks easier
[15:25] <jcastro> marcoceppi: can you explain about your convenience functions?
[15:25] <jcastro> (and then we'll go into this: http://pad.ubuntu.com/charmschool-2011-12-02)
[15:26] <jcastro> wrong URL, I mean this: http://pad.ubuntu.com/charmschool-2011-12-02
[15:27] <jcastro> ok we can get back to Marco
[15:27] <marcoceppi> Sure, so I wrote a few functions that I found myself using a lot in bash, primarily ch_get_file which is passed a file url and either a url to it's hash (md5, sha1, etc) or the actual hash itself. From there it'll download/compare file -> hash
[15:27] <marcoceppi> There are a few others, check if a string is a file or a url, check if a string is a valid hash
[15:28] <marcoceppi> You can find them: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~charmers/charm-tools/trunk/view/head:/helpers/sh/net.sh to use in a charm make sure you have the juju ppa added, install charm-helper-sh, and source /usr/share/charm-helper/sh/net.sh
[15:29] <SpamapS> marcoceppi: FYI, there is a PPA just for those helpers,   ppa:charmers/charm-helpers
[15:29] <marcoceppi> I believe the idea is to grow out charm helpers to include helper functions in all the languages
[15:29] <marcoceppi> <3 SpamapS
[15:29] <jcastro> and if I make something I think can be reused, do we just submit it to charm tools?
[15:29] <SpamapS> marcoceppi: otherwise you'll pull in a new version of juju
[15:30] <m_3_> SpamapS: yay!
[15:30] <SpamapS> they'll be in the distro for 12.04
[15:30] <jcastro> Since we're just getting a bunch of  charms started, if you're writing a charm and feel that you can improve the charm tools to make it better for the next person, then we certainly encourage you to do that.
[15:30] <marcoceppi> definitely
[15:31] <jcastro> ok, any questions on the tools before m_3_ gets into the meat of a charm?
[15:33] <jcastro> ok, moving on ....
[15:33] <SpamapS> are the tools webscale?
[15:33] <SpamapS> ;)
[15:33] <jcastro> everyone should have this URL open: http://pad.ubuntu.com/charmschool-2011-12-02
[15:33] <jcastro> and we'll review this charm
[15:34] <jcastro> Mark will bold the sections of the document he's talking about
[15:34] <jcastro> and then when he moves on he'll unbold it and then bold the section he'll be reviewing next.
[15:34] <m_3_> I'll give people a sec to join the pad
[15:34] <marcoceppi> pad needs syntax highlighting :P
[15:35] <m_3_> ok, so we'll make sure everyone has juju installed and working in a bit... first of all, let's cover some basic concepts of charms with an example
[15:36] <m_3_> I pulled a community-contributed charm off the list... just landed yesterday or the day before
[15:37] <m_3_> so the first section we have is a basic listing of the charm contents
[15:37] <m_3_> notice there're a couple of yaml files, a copyright, and then a set of scripts in the hooks/ directory
[15:38] <m_3_> the scripts in the hooks/ directory are all in shell for this example
[15:38] <m_3_> but juju takes great pains to be language/tool agnostic
[15:39] <m_3_> you can use your fav toolset.. hooks just have to run and exit with return codes similar to a shell script ( 0 is good )
[15:39] <m_3_> so before we dig into the contents of the hooks
[15:39] <m_3_> let's see what this charm is / does
[15:39] <m_3_> take a look at the metadata
[15:40]  * m_3_ not a fast etherpad formatter :)
[15:40] <m_3_> so it looks like the service described by this charm...
[15:40] <m_3_> consumes a db (mysql in this case)
[15:40] <m_3_> and presents a website
[15:41] <m_3_> ok, that's pretty simple... and has a _lot_ in common with other services
[15:41] <m_3_> so juju uses this metadata specification to stitch together different services
[15:42] <m_3_> when juju spins a service unit up for this charm
[15:42] <m_3_> it can 'relate' other services that match up
[15:42] <m_3_> (does this by your command of course... but we'll get to the juju cli in a bit)
[15:43] <chmac> Any insight on where adding Rackspace support lies in the priority list for the juju project?
[15:43] <chmac> We're based in the UK and so UK IPs are a big must at the moment, which means AWS is out as they only have an Irish presence, nothing in the UK itself.
[15:44] <chmac> Otherwise, I'd be very interested in experimenting with juju, it sounds like an awesome project.
[15:44] <m_3_> chmac: juju can handle a number of different providers
[15:44] <m_3_> including openstack
[15:44] <m_3_> so when juju spins up a service unit for this charm
[15:44] <m_3_> the first hook it calls is 'install' naturally enough
[15:45] <m_3_> please take a sec to look at the install hook in the pa
[15:45] <m_3_> pad
[15:45] <m_3_> starts off installing ppas and packages
[15:46] <m_3_> it's worth noting here that juju charms can be used to install services that install from packages
[15:46] <m_3_> but it can also be used to install other ways as well
[15:46] <m_3_> you can clone directly from the tip of your source code repo if you'd like
[15:46] <m_3_> anything goes
[15:47] <m_3_> for charms contributed back to the community please prefer packages when available
[15:47] <m_3_> but that's not necessary
[15:47] <m_3_> so this particular charm adds ppas/and packages
[15:47] <m_3_> then 'ch_get's a file from status.net
[15:48] <m_3_> (this is one of marco's tools to download and cryptographically verify payloads in charms)
[15:48] <m_3_> anyway... rest of the script is pretty clear
[15:48] <m_3_> note the open-port at the bottom
[15:49] <m_3_> juju defaults to everything closed off... you have to explicitly open what you want via the 'juju expose' command
[15:49] <m_3_> so that's install
[15:49] <m_3_> there're start/stop hooks too... these're usually trivial 'service xxx start'
[15:50] <medberry> so if you fail the open-port, there are iptables that prevent it? (firewall rules?)
[15:50] <m_3_> correct
[15:50] <m_3_> (not exactly iptables always)
[15:50] <m_3_> depends on the provider
[15:50] <medberry> ah, aws / openstack port rules, gotcha.
[15:50] <m_3_> (and still in development iirc on bare-metal provider)
[15:51] <m_3_> so some charms are for services that just install a service and spin it up
[15:51] <m_3_> some services don't relate to other services
[15:51] <m_3_> and we'd be done if that were the case for status.net
[15:51] <m_3_> here, we need a db
[15:51] <m_3_> and we could potentially add a reverse-proxy in front of it
[15:52] <m_3_> etc etc
[15:52] <m_3_> so before we move on to relations...
[15:52] <m_3_>  any questions so far?
[15:52] <jcastro> relations are the real meat of charms, so we'll pause here for questions
[15:54] <m_3_> ok, on to relations!!
[15:54] <m_3_> now this is the really cool part of juju... ok _a_ really cool part of juju
[15:54] <m_3_> so when you look at the config for a service
[15:55] <m_3_>  you can often bust it up into "the config specific to installing that node" and "the config specific to relating to another service"
[15:55] <m_3_> often the relation config info is a nice concise set of info
[15:55] <m_3_> well juju uses these boundaries to 'install' as a separate step from 'relate'
[15:56] <m_3_> so the basic story here is to
[15:56] <m_3_> 1.) spin up status.net
[15:56] <m_3_> 2.) spin up mysql
[15:56] <m_3_> 3.) relate the two
[15:56] <m_3_> 4.) expose status.net to the outside world
[15:57] <m_3_> when we relate two services the charm hooks for those services exchange info
[15:57] <m_3_> take a look at what's bold in the pad
[15:57] <m_3_> that's an example of the status.net charm getting relation-specific config info from the mysql service
[15:58] <m_3_> the mysql (db-relation-{joined,changed} hooks create a new db and credentials and then pass it to the service joining)
[15:58] <m_3_> so the status.net charm 'relation-get's the mysql db info that it needs
[15:58] <m_3_> now we can write this info into the config for status.net... and bam!
[15:59] <m_3_> take a minute to browse the db-relation-changed hook
[16:00] <m_3_> BTW all hooks are optional... only implement what you need... events will fire for {joined,changed,departed,broken}
[16:00] <m_3_> does this 'relation-get' exchange of information make sense to everybody?
[16:00] <m_3_> any questions about this
[16:01] <m_3_> it's this very separation of config info into 'install' and 'relation'-specific config that allows juju to start handling horizontal scaling quite nicely
[16:01] <m_3_> butmore on that later :)
[16:02] <m_3_> ok, take a sec to look at the website-relation-changed hook too
[16:02] <medberry> m_3_, compare "relation-get" with "config-get" which occurs later.
[16:02] <medberry> config-get comes from config.yaml?
[16:02] <m_3_> it's perdy darned simple
[16:03] <m_3_> was just gonna do config-get next
[16:03] <medberry> okeydokey
[16:03] <m_3_> so relation-get gives you info from the other side of a relation... another service
[16:03] <m_3_> config-get gives you info from a couple of different places:
[16:03] <m_3_> defaults are in config.yaml
[16:04] <m_3_> I can set them at deploy-time on the command line
[16:04] <m_3_> ( juju deploy -elocal --repository ~/charms --config ~/my_status_net.yaml local:statusnet status
[16:05] <m_3_> or I can also set them individually via the command line:
[16:05] <m_3_> at any time during the life of the service, I can 'juju set statusnet var1=val1 var2=val2'
[16:06] <m_3_> there's a config-changed hook that can handle these changes in addition to the install or relation config
[16:07] <m_3_> ok, so one more thing about relations and relation-hooks and then we can move on
[16:08] <m_3_> when a relation is joined, relation-changed hooks can fire repeatedly
[16:08] <m_3_> they do this as long as either side is calling relation-sets
[16:08] <m_3_> what this means is that your code has to be able to be called over and over again without barfing your config
[16:09] <m_3_> (idempotency for you math geeks out there.... i^2=i)
[16:09] <m_3_> it's not hard, but it's good practice to make all of your hooks idempotent
[16:10] <m_3_> alright, I could ramble on all day about scaling service and show you example stacks... but let's get on with charm school!
[16:10] <m_3_> any questions about the status.net charm before we move on?
[16:12] <jcastro> no questions so far?
[16:12] <jcastro> there's no way you guys can be that good. :)
[16:13]  * m_3_ is just that exciting to watch type :)
[16:13] <amithkk> jcastro: lol
[16:13] <mainerror> What do I do if there is no install_cli.php script for configure the site?
[16:13] <m_3_> mainerror: wow, that's a tough one
[16:13] <chmac> m_3_: I thought I'd read somewhere that juju only supports EC2 compatible clouds at the moment.
[16:14] <chmac> m_3_: Does juju support rackspace right now?
[16:14]  * jrgiffordwebchat has same question as chmac
[16:14] <amithkk> m_3_: Cant juju be installed on any server?
[16:14] <m_3_> mainerror: I'd write the install scripts myself and have the charm's install hook call my install scripts
[16:14] <marcoceppi> mainerror I had a problem like that, in where I just had to re-write the web-based installer into the charm
[16:15] <m_3_> chmac: yes, during the last ODS we even did the meta thing on openstack...
[16:15] <mainerror> I see. Thanks. :)
[16:15] <m_3_> i.e., we had a bare-metal rack
[16:15] <m_3_> chmac: we used juju to deploy openstack itself on the bare metal rack
[16:15] <chmac> m_3_: Wow, awesome, so juju can deploy new Rackspace servers just as it deploys new EC2 servers?
[16:15] <medberry> openstack is not per se the same thing as rackspace.
[16:15] <chmac> m_3_: Great, I'll get into the documentation in greater detail.
[16:16] <m_3_> chmac: then we backed out and used another juju environment to spin up a hadoop cluster on that openstack cloud
[16:16] <m_3_> chmac: note that juju doesn't support the rackspace-api... just the ec2-compatible-api on openstack
[16:17] <m_3_> medberry: thanks
[16:18] <chmac> I've read that juju's not production ready, is that really true, or is it more cautionary? :-)
[16:18] <m_3_> chmac: sorry, I don't know if rackspace has a public-facing openstack cloud yet
[16:18] <m_3_> chmac: definitely true
[16:18] <m_3_> chmac: there are components that need to be made highly available before it's totally production ready
[16:18] <jcastro> chmac: it's a tech preview in 11.10
[16:19] <chmac> m_3_: Really? It's so tempting to use it in production :-)
[16:19] <jrgiffordwebchat> so.. it was a tech preview in 11.04/11.10, for 12.04 it'll be production?
[16:19] <m_3_> chmac: we're shooting for production-ready in 12.04 (long-term-support) version of ubuntu
[16:19] <m_3_> chmac: I would use it in production
[16:19] <jcastro> chmac: but certainly we encourage people to run it in dev so that we can get feedback to make it better in 12.04 for an LTS.
[16:19] <chmac> Makes sense
[16:19] <jcastro> chmac: this is why we want people banging on it now
[16:19] <m_3_> but you've got to take some extra precautions atm to insure service/data integrity
[16:20] <chmac> m_3_: Now that's what I'm talking about, see, I'm usually happy to test earlier than most :-)
[16:20] <m_3_> it does spin up EBS-rooted instances in ec2 atm for instance just to be on the safer side
[16:20] <chmac> I'll investigate the openstack api issue with Rackspace, maybe there's an alternative provider in the UK.
[16:20] <chmac> Thanks for the snappy response, gotta run now, being taken shopping! :-)
[16:20]  * m_3_ totally ignorant
[16:20] <jcastro> thanks for coming!
[16:20] <m_3_> fun fun!
[16:21] <jcastro> any other questions?
[16:21] <jcastro> amithkk: I believe you asked if juju can be installed on any server?
[16:21] <m_3_> amithkk: sorry missed your question
[16:22] <m_3_> did the above discussion asnwer that?
[16:24] <mainerror> What is the best practice to create an install script for a service if there is no direct download option?
[16:24] <m_3_> mainerror: best is to use apt-get install
[16:24] <m_3_> mainerror: next is to download a payload... binary or tarball
[16:25] <medberry> .. then git clone?
[16:25] <m_3_> then install accordingly... cli.sh or ./configure && make && make install
[16:25] <m_3_> git clone's totally cool... we have several charms that do it already
[16:25] <m_3_> (safer to 'git clone <url> -b stable_branch_name')
[16:26] <amithkk> m_3_: yep
[16:26] <mainerror> What I meant is, what if there is no wget usable direct URL but only a redirect URL?
[16:26] <m_3_> mainerror: so in the latter case, you'd need the install hook to install 'build-essential'
[16:26] <amithkk> sorry for the slow responce
[16:26] <m_3_> or whatever's needed for that build
[16:27] <m_3_> mainerror: hmmm... not sure I'm following, but perhaps a ppa for that charm would work?
[16:27] <medberry> I think I know the answer... but clarifying:
[16:27] <medberry> jcastro,  m_3_, if I want to populate some content, does that happen after juju deploy? Assume I'm using public charms--should I mod them or just do the population on the host after the fact?
[16:27] <mainerror> Ah, right. That would be an option.
[16:27] <medberry> (ie, load web content, etc.)
[16:28] <jcastro> I think mainerror means
[16:28] <m_3_> medberry: sure, you can pull/install during a relation hook even
[16:28] <jcastro> what if I can't wget a tarball directly?
[16:28] <jcastro> and it's buried in some website that has redirects, etc.
[16:29] <mainerror> Indeed but m_3 actually answered it, I think.
[16:29] <m_3_> so you _could_ just stick a tarball in the charm itself... there're some size limitations to that, but I don't remember them off-hand
[16:29] <mainerror> As I understood his answer was to create a package for it in a PPA. Maybe I misunderstood.
[16:30] <medberry> m_3_, but that's no longer really a public charm (if it has my content in it). So I've locally forked the charm?
[16:30] <m_3_> mainerror: heck, let's go over the specific thing you're trying to do
[16:30] <m_3_> medberry: yes, exactly
[16:30] <m_3_> medberry: which is ok... anything goes in charms
[16:30] <medberry> thanks all.
[16:30] <m_3_> medberry: your choice to make something harder to maintain, and/or private/proprietary
[16:30] <mainerror> Uhm, it was more of a general question. Luckily I can wget it directly.
[16:30] <medberry> mainerror, is there an example--some actual issue you can point us at?
[16:31] <medberry> ah.
[16:31] <m_3_> medberry: but contrib back to community set of charms in the 'charm store' is different
[16:31] <medberry> nod.
[16:31] <m_3_> they get tagged according to all sorts of different criteria
[16:32] <jcastro> I wouldn't consider a tarball in a charm best practice
[16:32] <jcastro> ideally if it was an open project you could get them to fix that
[16:32] <m_3_> prefer packages if available
[16:32] <jcastro> or ask them to mirror their tarball releases on launchpad
[16:32] <jcastro> or package it in a PPA as a contribution to ubuntu and that project
[16:33] <m_3_> marcoceppi has a 'use_upstream' config option on a charm
[16:33] <marcoceppi> yeah, it switches between latest stable tarbal and what's in the repos.
[16:33] <m_3_> true => pull from source, otherwise install the package
[16:33] <marcoceppi> but it always defaults to the repo, you have to juju set inorder to get the upstream version
[16:34] <m_3_> which is really a beautiful way to handle that from a user-perspective (as long as default is pkgs :)
[16:34] <jcastro> but if it's some horrible program that you can't improve and need it for work or something then feel free to get as ugly as you want, but for the public charms in the charm store we're looking for nice clean charms that people can use and adapt.
[16:34] <jcastro> ok, we've gone through the charm
[16:34] <jcastro> and this ends the official charm school
[16:34] <jcastro> however
[16:34] <jcastro> we certainly encourage you to hang out
[16:34] <jcastro> smoke if you got em
[16:35] <jcastro> and feel free to ask us questions
[16:35] <jcastro> or let us know what you're working on
[16:35] <jcastro> or ask for help or a review
[16:35] <jcastro> we hold office hours (see topic) or you can always post to the list
[16:35] <jcastro> but the juju team works a ton, and usually are always in here and love to answer questions from users
[16:35] <jcastro> so please don't be shy!
[16:36] <medberry> tx guys.
[16:36] <amithkk> awesome session!
[16:36] <mainerror> Thanks for this session!
[16:36] <jcastro> we'll make the logs handy for everyone
[16:37] <dannf> thanks guys - is service maintenance within the scope of juju? e.g. keeping mysql up to date w/ security patches?
[16:37] <marcoceppi> That's a good question actually
[16:38] <m_3_> dannf: yes, there's an upgrade action called from the command line 'juju upgrade <service-name>'
[16:38] <dannf> and that is implemented with a hook, i presume?
[16:38] <m_3_> that you can customize with a dedicated upgrade hook
[16:39] <dannf> sweet
[16:39] <m_3_> usual practice is to make 'install' idempotent and then symlink to the upgrade hool
[16:39] <m_3_> s/hool/hook/
[16:39] <dannf> makes sense
[16:40] <m_3_> dannf: rolling upgrades can be done, but you have to segment the service a bit... i.e., plan for it... this'll improve over time
[16:41] <m_3_> i.e., if you've got a 20-unit service and only wanna upgrade a few of them at a time
[16:41] <m_3_> scaling in juju is just cool!  but that'll be another charm school :)
[16:42] <jcastro> yes, it's actually unfair to juju not mentioning scaling this time
[16:42] <jcastro> but when we get to it you'll really start to see the power
[16:42] <m_3_> it's a kind of magic
[16:42] <m_3_> sorry, had to
[16:42] <m_3_> :)
[16:43]  * m_3_ now has song stuck in head
[16:43]  * mainerror too
[16:48] <m_3_> hazmat niemeyer: y'all can have the channel back... thanks!
[16:48] <mpl> wheee
[16:49] <mpl> feels good to come out of the dark irc corner
[16:58] <niemeyer> Oh, hey.. #juju is back
[16:58] <niemeyer> rog: Review sent
[17:00] <rog> niemeyer: w.r.t. Bootstrap, I said that I would change the test (to test for len(ms)==1) once Bootstrap actually starts a machine, but for the time being i think it's ok.
[17:02] <niemeyer> rog: It's not..
[17:03] <niemeyer> rog: Comment the test out if you can't satisfy it.. a test assertion that asserts something wrong is doing what exactly
[17:04] <niemeyer> rog: Or, maybe better
[17:04] <niemeyer> rog: Comment Bootstrap out
[17:04] <rog> that's a better idea
[17:04] <niemeyer> rog: Then the test is probably correct
[17:04] <niemeyer> rog: It should not Destroy, though
[17:05] <rog> niemeyer: why not?
[17:05] <niemeyer> rog: Because that's the complement of Bootstrap
[17:05] <niemeyer> rog: Destroy doesn't work in a real deployment without Bootstrap, I think
[17:05] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Does it?
[17:05] <rog> niemeyer: currently, Destroy takes down all machines that were started from the current environment
[17:06] <rog> niemeyer: which seems ok
[17:06] <fwereade_> niemeyer, reading context
[17:06] <niemeyer> rog: Hmm.. fair enough.. that sounds like a good behavior, even if we don't do that in Python
[17:06] <fwereade_> niemeyer, I don't think destroy-environment is actually an *error* if you don't have an environment
[17:07] <niemeyer> fwereade_: The question is whether it kills all machines, even if we don't find the data about it in e.g. S3
[17:08] <fwereade_> niemeyer, checking
[17:09] <fwereade_> niemeyer, it gets ec2 machines by reservation, so it should be safe
[17:09] <niemeyer> fwereade_: Cool, thanks
[17:19] <rog> niemeyer: i replied with one question about about open vs Open
[17:19] <niemeyer> rog: and I already replied to it
[17:21] <rog> niemeyer: i think i'd prefer to wait until the occasion arises, if that's ok
[17:21] <niemeyer> rog: Sure, no prob
[17:22] <rog> niemeyer: the previous weekly builds find with all tests passing btw, so it's *something* that's changed recently
[17:22] <niemeyer> rog: You mean re. http?
[17:22] <rog> niemeyer: yeah
[17:27] <rog> niemeyer: https://codereview.appspot.com/5448085/
[17:28] <niemeyer> rog: goamz should be entirely fixed, tagged, and shiny already
[17:29] <rog> niemeyer: i just pulled and it didn't seem to be
[17:29] <rog> unless...
[17:29] <rog> ah, rename!
[17:30] <rog> no
[17:30] <rog> niemeyer: http://paste.ubuntu.com/757292/
[17:31] <rog> it still needs fixing, i think
[17:31] <rog> (that was done just after i'd removed the aws directory, BTW)
[17:32] <niemeyer> rog: I think I screwed up pushing to ~niemeyer.. let me see
[17:32] <rog> niemeyer: renames are awkward - it should lazily evaluate aliases i think
[17:32] <niemeyer> rog: yeah, I'm sorry
[17:33] <niemeyer> rog: The rename worked fine, but I forgot the --remember
[17:33] <niemeyer> rog: Which means the fixup and tagging afterwards went to the wrong location
[17:34] <niemeyer> rog: Ok, I _think_ everything should be fine now, including the more unknown packages (sdb, etc)
[17:34] <rog> niemeyer: if i push to lp:goamz/aws, it should remember that, even if it's later changed to be an alias for something else, i reckon
[17:34] <niemeyer> rog: It doesn't
[17:34] <rog> i know
[17:34] <niemeyer> rog: Unless you say so with --remember
[17:34] <niemeyer> rog: Ah, you're expressing a wish, sorry
[17:34] <rog> yeah
[17:34] <niemeyer> rog: Yeah, it makes sense to me too
[17:45] <rog> niemeyer: PTAL
[17:46] <niemeyer> rog: e.Destroy has already been mentioned in two other reviews.. please fix it or respond to the point.
[17:47] <rog> [17:06] <niemeyer> rog: Hmm.. fair enough.. that sounds like a good behavior, even if we don't do that in Python
[17:47] <niemeyer> rog: That's not the same issue
[17:47] <niemeyer> rog: We should be able to Open without Destroy
[17:48] <niemeyer> rog: Or do you think we shouldn't?
[17:48] <rog> niemeyer: i think that the destroys will happen at the end
[17:49] <rog> niemeyer: so it shouldn't matter
[17:49] <rog> niemeyer: what do you propose as a solution?
[17:49] <niemeyer> rog: So if I open the same environment 10 times, you think we should destroy it 10 times
[17:49] <rog> niemeyer: yeah.
[17:49] <niemeyer> rog: That's silly isn't it?
[17:49] <rog> niemeyer: probably :-)
[17:49] <niemeyer> rog: So let's do something else..
[17:50] <rog> niemeyer: your suggestion was to have suite.Bootstrap, right?
[17:50] <niemeyer> rog: I suppose each environment only has to be destroyed once, and that we don't really have to do through the same object that created it
[17:50] <rog> niemeyer: so the environment that got bootstrapped gets destroyed
[17:51] <niemeyer> rog: Does that make sense?
[17:51] <fwereade_> happy weekends everybody :)
[17:51] <niemeyer> fwereade_: thanks, have a great one too
[17:51] <rog> fwereade_: have a good one
[17:51] <niemeyer> rog: I don't mind to change the original suggestion.. just want to have some conversation going about the topic
[17:52] <niemeyer> rog: You say Destroy shouldn't depend on Bootstrap.. that's fine by me too
[17:52] <rog> niemeyer: i think that if we're wanting to test Bootstrap/Destroy with different opens, we can bypass the suite environment handling
[17:53] <niemeyer> rog: I don't want to test.. it's the opposite.. I don't want the suite to be doing something that makes no sense all the time
[17:53] <rog> most tests will be against a single environment, i think
[17:55] <rog> niemeyer: isn't it worth doing something that makes sense most almost all of the time? hmm, i dunno.
[17:55] <niemeyer> rog: Sorry, I don't get that point..
[17:56] <niemeyer> rog: The same environment shouldn't be destroyed twice.. it will fail, and the test will fail because Destroy fails
[17:56] <rog> anyway, my thought was that we could have a Bootstrap method as well as an Open method. the  Bootstrap method marks the env to be destroyed at the end.
[17:56] <niemeyer> rog: That was my suggestion, that you advocated against by saying Destroy should always be called :-)
[17:56] <rog> which will happen exactly once for each env created via bootstrap
[17:56] <niemeyer> rog: Which is fine by me
[17:57] <rog> niemeyer: that was then :-)
[17:57] <niemeyer> rog: The only point I'm trying to address is not destroying thing twice
[17:57] <niemeyer> rog: and it's easy to do that
[17:57] <rog> niemeyer: yeah, ok i'll do that
[17:57] <rog> see whether i can do it in 3 minutes!
[17:57] <niemeyer> rog: Well.. let's do this
[17:57] <niemeyer> rog: Please merge it as-is..
[17:58] <niemeyer> rog: We'll sort it out later
[17:58] <rog> ok
[17:58] <rog> it's ok as is?
[17:58] <niemeyer> rog: yeah
[17:59] <niemeyer> rog: I'm starting to think we should just Destroy it within each test as necessary and be done with it. Let's see how things show up in practice once we have a few additional tests
[17:59] <rog> niemeyer: the problem with that is that the env is left around if you do a failed Assert
[17:59] <niemeyer> rog: defer
[17:59] <rog> ok
[18:00] <niemeyer> But let's see.. it's bothering a bit knowing this will blow up but I'm probably concerned too soon
[18:01] <rog> bugger, conflicts
[18:02] <niemeyer> Huh.. how come?
[18:08] <rog> niemeyer: all sorted now. jeeze. i *think* i got all the steps right.
[18:09] <rog> gotta go, i am required to pack for the weekend. see ya monday. thanks for all the reviews, i love 'em really :-)
[18:10] <niemeyer> rog: Thanks a lot for everything this week, it was awesome
[18:10] <niemeyer> rog: and you're very welcome
[18:10] <rog> niemeyer: and if you did manage to have a look at ec2-region before then i'd be very happy indeed...
[18:10] <niemeyer> rog: Oh, wait
[18:11] <niemeyer> rog: I've checked it out, but the proposal includes unrelated changes from the previous branch
[18:11] <niemeyer> rog: I mentioned that in the codereview itself
[18:11] <rog> fuck
[18:11] <rog> which changes?
[18:13] <rog> niemeyer: i can fix it if you let me know right now, otherwise i'll have to leave it
[18:13] <niemeyer> rog: See the codereview
[18:14] <niemeyer> rog: I think it had all the ec2-initial changes in
[18:14] <rog> niemeyer: which file?
[18:14] <niemeyer> rog: All of them
[18:14] <niemeyer> rog: Or most, anyway.. checking out
[18:14] <rog> niemeyer: i thought ec2-initial was approved, bar these changes
[18:14] <niemeyer> rog: It is!
[18:14] <niemeyer> rog: and it's merged even, right?
[18:15] <rog> yeah
[18:15] <niemeyer> rog: My point is that this: rog: https://codereview.appspot.com/5449065/
[18:15] <niemeyer> rog: Has a ton of unrelated changes coming from other branches
[18:15] <rog> ah, sorry, i thought you were referring to the review just done
[18:15] <rog> one mo
[18:17] <rog> niemeyer: there, is that better?
[18:18] <rog> niemeyer: it looks like the changes are relevant now
[18:18] <rog> gotta go
[18:19] <niemeyer> rog: Superb, thanks!
[18:19] <niemeyer> rog: Enjoy
[23:01] <_mup_> Bug #899433 was filed: YAML errors in charms should be obvious to users <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/899433 >


[00:15] <homebrewcider> hey there, I have a FAT32 partition I want read/write access to. I have it mounted at /media/FAT32, but it's the fstab bit I have problems with, can anyone help please?
[00:16] <zoredache> how did you mount it in /media/FAT32?
[00:17] <homebrewcider> <sudo mount /dev/sda6 /media/FAT32>
[00:19] <zoredache> homebrewcider: so an fstab line like  "/dev/sda6 /media/FAT32 auto defaults 0 0' should probably do what you want
[00:20] <zoredache> though you might want to change the defaults to do something like setup the group, owner, and umask since fat32 doesn't have permissions
[00:21] <homebrewcider> I'll try that
[00:24] <homebrewcider> no, no good
[00:24] <zoredache> how so?
[00:24] <homebrewcider> not giving me write access
[00:24] <zoredache> but did it get mounted?
[00:25] <homebrewcider> I had no problems mounting it before, that's not the problem, writing is the problem
[00:25] <Shaba1> anyone here?
[00:26] <zoredache> as I mentioned... fat doesn't have permissions.  When mounted through fstab everything will appear to be owned by root:root by default
[00:26] <Shaba1> Ok how do we get a windows partition to show up in thunar.
[00:26] <zoredache> if you have a single users system you can replace the 'defaults' column with something like 'uid=1000'
[00:26] <Shaba1> I alread have it in /etc/fstab
[00:27] <zoredache> homebrewcider: that will basicall make everything be owned by the user 1000 which is usually the id associated with the first user on the system
[00:28] <homebrewcider>    like this?   </dev/sda6                                  /media/FAT32    auto         uid=1000                    0  0>
[00:28] <zoredache> I believe that is right
[00:29] <homebrewcider> that's not working either
[00:29] <zoredache> again, not working how?  Does it mount?
[00:30] <homebrewcider> it's been mounted the whole time
[00:30] <zoredache> if you do an ls on it after you have remounted does it show you as the owner?
[00:30] <zoredache> homebrewcider: you realize you have unmount/remount when you make a change to the fstab right?
[00:30] <zoredache> or reboot
[00:30] <homebrewcider> oh
[00:31] <zoredache> so unmount the volume then do a 'sudo mount -a'
[00:31] <Shaba1> huh
[00:31] <Shaba1> zoredache can I get our attention after homebrewcider
[00:32] <zoredache> Shaba1: what do you mean by show up in thunar?  If you want it to show up on the desktop I don't know anything about that
[00:32] <sloopy> Shaba1, is it mounted?
[00:32] <Shaba1> Well it shows up in /etc/fstab
[00:33] <Shaba1> but when I open thundar its not there
[00:33] <zoredache> if you do a 'mount' in a terminal does it show up?
[00:33] <sloopy> Shaba1, do a 'df -h'
[00:33] <sloopy> see if it is listed
[00:33] <Shaba1> hold on
[00:33] <homebrewcider> ok, that worked, can I just ask you why "sudo mount -a" is different to me doing "sudo mount /dev/sda6  /media/FAT32"  ?
[00:34] <Shaba1> yep it is liste by that command as /dev/sda1
[00:34] <zoredache> homebrewcider: mount -a will read the fstab and automatically mount everything not flaged with 'noauto'
[00:34] <sloopy> the -a mounts all partitions listed in /etc/fstab
[00:34] <sloopy> yeah that...
[00:34] <Shaba1> its monted on
[00:34] <Shaba1> sorry
[00:35] <homebrewcider> I'm sure in the past my fstab had options like noauto,user,exec,noatime
[00:35] <Shaba1> that command says its "Mounted on" /Media/Cdrive
[00:35] <homebrewcider> so when I was mounting it before it wasn't reading the fstab?
[00:35] <homebrewcider> is that right?
[00:36] <Shaba1> sloopy?
[00:36] <zoredache> homebrewcider: I am not quite sure...
[00:36] <zoredache> Shaba1: try browsing to the folder /media/cdrive
[00:36] <sloopy> Shaba1, then put that in thundar and see it
[00:36] <homebrewcider> thanx anyway
[00:36] <Shaba1> put in in how?
[00:36] <Shaba1> put what in
[00:36] <Shaba1> the "/dev/sda1 part
[00:37] <sloopy> err sry was thinking different... click on file system then media
[00:37] <Shaba1> or the "/Media/Cdrive" part?
[00:37] <zoredache> homebrewcider: I know that sometimes it will look at the fstab if you dont' provide enough options.  I have never cared enough to look it up
[00:37] <homebrewcider> ok, cheers, I'm off then, thanks
[00:37] <zoredache> Shaba1: with thunar open click the go menu then open location
[00:37] <sloopy> click on 'filesystem' on left then click on Media folder on right
[00:38] <sloopy> i am still not overly exp with GUIs ;')
[00:38] <Shaba1> ok sloopy dont that
[00:38] <Shaba1> now what
[00:38] <Shaba1> ?
[00:38] <sloopy> Cdrive should be a folder on right side now
[00:39] <Shaba1> Ok that got it
[00:39] <Shaba1> I just dragged it there
[00:40] <Shaba1> Ok how do I get that icon to show up on the desktop also?
[00:40] <Shaba1> instead of having to open thunar every time
[00:41] <Shaba1> never mind
[00:41] <Shaba1> I got it done
[00:42] <Shaba1> Ok thanks
[00:42] <Shaba1> well now
[00:42] <sloopy> np
[00:42] <Shaba1> that helps a lot
[00:42] <Shaba1> now does anyone have any Idea how I can get vino-server to start up automagically?
[00:43] <Shaba1> Never mind answering that
[00:43] <Shaba1> I have to run down the the laundry
[00:43] <Shaba1> brb
[00:43] <sloopy> yes but i dont know how to do it the proper 'ubuntu' way ;')
[00:45] <sloopy> you can check  applications>system>services to see if it listed and check it there
[01:02] <Nicekiwi9> hiysa
[01:02] <Nicekiwi9> howdo i setup a system proxy in xubuntu 8.04?
[01:05] <proprietarysucks> anyone know how to install kplayer on xubuntu?
[01:05] <zoredache> Nicekiwi9: I don't believe there really is a system proxy... what are you trying to run that needs it?
[01:06] <Nicekiwi9> Steam
[01:06] <Nicekiwi9> and Firefox is oddly refuseing my proxy too... tho im nto sure if thats related or not
[01:07] <Nicekiwi9> someone here yesturday told me to do "export proxy_somthing http://etc:8080
[01:07] <Nicekiwi9> but they dident say where or how
[01:07] <zoredache> with vlc I usually us a command like 'export http_proxy=http://localhost:9999/ ; vlc'
[01:07] <zoredache> you create a script, or launcher that does that
[01:08] <Nicekiwi9> cant i set one up for the enviroment? or somthing so all programs will run off it?
[01:08] <Nicekiwi9> somthing to do with the /etc/enviroment file
[01:08] <zoredache> Nicekiwi9: yes, it almost certainly can be done... I haven't cared/need to know enough to find out
[01:09] <Nicekiwi9> but in the dcase of steam? running through crossover games.....
[01:09] <zoredache> It seems like crossover would have to have something
[01:10] <Nicekiwi9> which it dosent =(
[01:10] <zoredache> are you sure steam will even use a proxy?  I didn't thing it was http based
[01:10] <Nicekiwi9> it is strangly enough....
[01:10] <Nicekiwi9> it works on ubuntu with the system proxy enabled.....
[01:11] <Nicekiwi9> =S
[01:13] <Nicekiwi9> how do i edit a readonly file via terminal?
[01:13] <Nicekiwi9> or through anything
[01:13] <zoredache> usually it is read-only because it is owned by root and you don't have permissions
[01:13] <Nicekiwi9> how do i give myself permission?
[01:14] <Nicekiwi9> i know in ubuntu i could go "sudo gedit etc"
[01:14] <zoredache> the *buntu was is usually to use sudo/gksu start a program with permission.  In this case you would use sudo editor blah
[01:14] <Nicekiwi9> but gedit isent here
[01:14] <zoredache> mousepad is the default gui editor
[01:14] <zoredache> nano or vi are available if you like/want a text mode editor
[01:17] <Nicekiwi9> hmm ok...
[01:17] <Nicekiwi9> can u think of any reason y my proxy would be flattly refusing connection to my Xbuntu box
[01:17] <Nicekiwi9> in firfox
[01:17] <Nicekiwi9> the correct seetings r set and it was working last night....
[01:18] <Nicekiwi9> i was messing with the export proxy_http command which wasent working and i shutdown...
[01:18] <Nicekiwi9> now the proxy bluntly wont connect
[01:18] <zoredache> can you telnet to the proxy?  'telnet host port'
[01:19] <zoredache> if you get connected you should be able to type a command like 'get /' followed by <enter> and you'll get an error
[01:19] <Nicekiwi9> nope :S
[01:20] <zoredache> if you can't telnet do it, that seems like it would indicate you either don't have any connectivity (check cables, ping, etc), or you have firewalled yourself out
[01:21] <Nicekiwi9> :S
[01:22]  * Nicekiwi9 cries
[01:22] <Nicekiwi9> thnkx for ur help
[01:23] <Shaba1> Ok back
[01:23] <Shaba1> sloopy
[01:23] <Shaba1> Its not in services
[01:23] <Shaba1> I was trying to find out how I could put it there
[01:28] <proprietarysucks> do I have to build kplayer from source?
[01:28] <Nicekiwi9> how do i clear any proxy settings enabled on the system
[01:29] <sloopy> Shaba1, yeah i dont know the ubuntu way to do it... (in fedora you would use chkconfig but debian/ubuntu doesnt have that)
[01:30] <TheSheep> you can install sysv-rc-conf...
[01:30] <Shaba1> You know this is the first time I have ever seen anyone chatting in this channel
[01:30] <Shaba1> at least i know its not dead
[01:30] <TheSheep> that's because it's #xubuntu-offtopic that's for chatting
[01:31] <proprietarysucks> do I have to build kplayer from source? kplayer is the best video player I've ever seen on linux, shame to see it not being included
[01:32] <TheSheep> !info kplayer | proprietarysucks
[01:32] <TheSheep> hmm.. it's there in Intrepid
[01:33] <proprietarysucks> not sure what that means
[01:33] <TheSheep> !intrepid
[01:33] <proprietarysucks> so in other words yes I must build it from source
[01:33] <proprietarysucks> thanks
[01:34] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: you could try installing the package from debian, it works sometimes
[01:34] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: or check getdeb.net
[01:34] <proprietarysucks> not there
[01:35] <zoredache> you could try getting the intrepid source package and backporting it...
[01:37] <proprietarysucks> how do you guys exist with no kplayer
[01:37] <proprietarysucks> also where can I look for this source
[01:38] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: packages.ubuntu.com
[01:38] <proprietarysucks> man that's cool they must finally be getting away from the 7-year old mentality names for the distros
[01:38] <proprietarysucks> and on to the car names.. better at least
[01:39] <proprietarysucks> thanks, I see it
[01:40] <proprietarysucks> whew!
[01:40] <proprietarysucks> 192MB will be installed
[01:40] <sloopy> Shaba1, people talk on and off 24hours a day here...
[01:41] <proprietarysucks> which is funny since it's 2331kb package
[01:41] <proprietarysucks> oh well it's worth it, bombs away
[01:41] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: it probably has to install half of the kde
[01:41] <sloopy> my scroll back on has 8 hours in it...
[01:41] <Shaba1> Every time I have come in for the last three weeks there have been 10-40 nick in the room but no on talking
[01:41] <proprietarysucks> 56 packages whew
[01:41] <TheSheep> Shaba1: you have to ask the question :)
[01:41] <proprietarysucks> well I'm talking now so be happy =D
[01:41] <sloopy> try going to #Linux-M68k my scroll back could contain weeks of chat... ;')
[01:42] <TheSheep> Shaba1: not to mention #linux-z80
[01:43] <sloopy> TheSheep, i am an op in LM68k channel, so i am more familiar with it...
[01:43] <Shaba1> z80
[01:43] <Shaba1> that is and old 8 bit chip
[01:43] <Shaba1> ??
[01:43] <sloopy> yes it is
[01:43] <Shaba1> I remember programming for those back in the early 80s
[01:44] <TheSheep> neat instruction set they had :)
[01:44] <sloopy> i was more a 6502/68k person
[01:45] <Shaba1> That was my next step up
[01:45] <Shaba1> that 6210
[01:45] <sloopy> heh i just looked it up, my nick has been reg'd for over 6 years on freenode/OPN
[01:45] <Shaba1> sorry
[01:45] <Shaba1> 6510
[01:45] <sloopy> 6510?!??! commodore 64 user?
[01:45]  * TheSheep jumped to 80086 right away
[01:45] <Nicekiwi9> how do i add a program to the startup
[01:46] <proprietarysucks> yes! kplayer finally
[01:46] <proprietarysucks> thanks for the tips about 8.10
[01:46] <TheSheep> Nicekiwi9: settings->setting manager->autostarted applications
[01:46] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: beware of beta software
[01:46] <proprietarysucks> hmm I wonder what will happen if I do a system wide update
[01:46] <proprietarysucks> hahaha... wish me luck
[01:47] <sloopy> i only started using x86 as my main machine 2 years ago
[01:47] <proprietarysucks> with the intrepid repo enabled
[01:47] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: I did last week and I'm still alive
[01:47] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: although ff crashes when I select 'save as' :)
[01:47] <proprietarysucks> firefox has a save as? why
[01:48] <Shaba1> Ok off topic question/opinion poll
[01:48] <proprietarysucks> man 697 packages
[01:48] <sloopy> to save the awesome pron you find ;')
[01:48] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: so that you can save a web page, style, image, etc.
[01:48] <proprietarysucks> lucky I'm at work getting over 800kbs
[01:48] <Shaba1> Has anyone ever downloaded a program where the was a general desciption of what it does on the web page
[01:48] <sloopy> proprietarysucks, not in the US or dont have broadband at home?
[01:48] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: more breakage expected until october though
[01:48] <Shaba1> but NO instruction on how to do it either on the page or with the program.
[01:49] <Shaba1> like you get a set of  menus and thats it.
[01:49] <TheSheep> Shaba1: that's pretty common with opensource...
[01:49] <sloopy> Shaba1, often
[01:49] <proprietarysucks> you don't get solid 800kbs at home in us
[01:49] <Shaba1> It suck
[01:49] <proprietarysucks> unless you have fios or something
[01:49] <Shaba1> I mean I do not expect like a thousand page manual
[01:50] <Shaba1> but some kinda start here page or something
[01:50] <sloopy> nope i have cable, and it runs flawlessly (yes i know i am one of the few ;')
[01:50] <TheSheep> Shaba1: usually someone wrote it for himself and just shared
[01:50] <proprietarysucks> hey xubuntu people, the help does nothing at all in the remote desktop viewer
[01:50] <proprietarysucks> fyi, kthnxbye
[01:50] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: you need yelp installed
[01:50] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: it's a known problem
[01:50] <proprietarysucks> ok thanks
[01:50] <Shaba1> Sheep I know that
[01:50] <proprietarysucks> glad it will be fixed
[01:51] <Shaba1> but damn its not like we can read the programmers mind.
[01:51] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: it can take several years until a version of yelp for xfce is made :)
[01:51] <sloopy> use the source, its better then docs ;')
[01:51] <TheSheep> proprietarysucks: I tried to make one once, but failed
[01:51] <proprietarysucks> Shaba1: what program?
[01:51] <proprietarysucks> TheSheep: can they remove the help > contents menu item then?
[01:52] <proprietarysucks> pretty stupid to have a menu item which does nothing
[01:52] <proprietarysucks> extra bulk
[01:52] <Shaba1> Well the most recent on is something called the Xdebuggerclient
[01:52] <TheSheep> !bugs | proprietarysucks
[01:52] <proprietarysucks> google doesn't find that program, maybe you are spelling it wrong?
[01:52] <proprietarysucks> I don't create accounts to report bugs
[01:53] <proprietarysucks> too many distros sorry
[01:53] <Shaba1> Oh proprietarysucks I was not asking for help with it at all
[01:54] <Shaba1> it just still amazes me after all these year using computers that programmers still think that users can read thier minds and intentions
[01:54] <proprietarysucks> it doesn't exist so I'm glad about that
[01:54] <proprietarysucks> hard to find help on imaginary packages
[01:54] <Shaba1> Oh I was not asking for help at all
[01:55] <Shaba1> just making a comment.
[01:55] <proprietarysucks> I know that, I read your comments
[01:55] <proprietarysucks> but I want an example
[01:55] <proprietarysucks> and the one you gave me is imaginary
[01:56] <proprietarysucks> you know what else is freaking annoying, when commands have different than standard syntax
[01:56] <proprietarysucks> or don't just use stdin/stdout/stderr
[01:56] <Shaba1> and its at this address if you really want to see it
[01:56] <Shaba1> http://code.google.com/p/xdebugclient/
[01:56] <proprietarysucks> gah that's annoying
[01:57] <sloopy> Shaba1, your work has been cut out for you... be the champion of open source project documentation! make docs where none exist, translate into x^16 laguanges and be an all around good user ;'D
[01:57] <proprietarysucks> uh-oh, E: base-passwd: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 9
[01:57] <Shaba1> yeah right
[01:58] <proprietarysucks> si correcto
[01:58] <Shaba1> I am just trying to eat from day to day right now sloopy
[01:58] <proprietarysucks> you're almost there
[01:58] <sloopy> eating is overated...
[01:58] <Shaba1> Which is beginning to be a struggle
[01:58] <proprietarysucks> in synaptic how can you just view the possible upgrades, for single selecting
[01:59] <sloopy> i used to buy food when i was hungry and didnt have and food...
[01:59] <proprietarysucks> <--is used to yumex
[01:59] <sloopy> yumes?
[01:59] <sloopy> err yumex?
[01:59] <proprietarysucks> yeah I've been using yumex for a long time, not used to synaptic package manager yet
[01:59] <proprietarysucks> how can I see the upgrades available?
[02:00] <sloopy> hmmm yum... looks familiar...
[02:00] <proprietarysucks> I see only 'mark all upgrades'
[02:00] <proprietarysucks> i want to mark SOME upgrades =]
[02:00] <sloopy> i have used yum... and yup before that
[04:25] <mortal1> does anyone here use vuze?
[04:26] <mortal1> i can't get it to start on xub after switching to classic interface
[04:26] <mortal1> it's the wierdest thing
[04:29] <mortal1> anyone?
[04:30]  * totalwormage doesn't :]
[04:30] <totalwormage> sorry
[04:35] <mortal1> now that's interesting
[04:36] <mortal1> the latest vuze client doesn't work, but go back one release and it works
[04:58] <T045T> good night everyone (: just wanted to ask how well xubuntu can/will run with 64MB of RAM, if at all...
[04:59] <totalwormage> !requirements
[04:59] <totalwormage> :D
[04:59] <totalwormage> it will run, but slow :P
[05:00] <T045T> okay... lots of swap space won't change that much, right?
[05:00] <T045T> (on an IDE hard drive, nothing fancy)
[05:00] <totalwormage> i guess not
[05:03] <T045T> oh, I just remembered that 8 or 16 MB of that are gonna be shared VRAM ):
[05:06] <mortal1> T045T: with that ammount of ram, your best bet would be debian or slackware, and fluxbox
[05:06] <mortal1> I had a custom built slackware install that only used 30mb of ram logged in
[05:06] <mortal1> it was pretty tight
[05:07] <mortal1> err I should say, that was running fluxbox, nothing else at the time
[05:07] <totalwormage> hehehe
[05:07] <mortal1> firefox will still be slow
[05:07] <T045T> mortal1: I'm burning the fluxbuntu iso right now... any experience with that?
[05:08] <mortal1> flubuntu looked unsupported the last i saw
[05:08] <T045T> yeah, it does... their last release was a loong time ago
[05:09] <mortal1> T045T: your best bet if you want buntu is to install xub and then install fluxbox
[05:10] <T045T> I probably could do debian, but I'm more of a "casual" linux user, I guess... so I don't know how well that would work out
[05:12] <mortal1> like i said, dl xub and install fluxbox and use that
[05:12] <T045T> plus, the hardware I'm working with is very unreliable... I don't even know if the CD drive is working correctly... keeps giving me read errors for no good reason (I burnt the disc twice, and only on 8x this second time)
[05:12] <mortal1> ah! let me guess 8.04?
[05:13] <T045T> nope, fluxbuntu 7.10
[05:13] <mortal1> oh
[05:13] <mortal1> nvm
[05:13] <mortal1> aight, to bed i go
[05:13] <mortal1> night
[05:13] <T045T> night
[06:38] <chasman> What does it mean to be official in this application?  Can I get help with mysql on xubuntu here or must I go elsewhere?
[06:41] <cody-somerville> chasman, hi
[06:42] <cody-somerville> chasman, This might not be the best place to ask for mysql help but if you ask and someone knows the answer then they'll respond
[07:52] <chasman> Thank you cody-somerville.   I have been working for hours on this error.  I have no trouble on windoz but It seems lot have the same issue on *nix.  I am going to try a fresh linux distribution.  thank you for your kind words.
[13:14] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, ping
[13:14] <TheSheep> hey
[13:15] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, you suffer from bug #232364 right?
[13:16] <TheSheep> cody-somerville: not anymore
[13:16] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, why?
[13:16]  * TheSheep <-- Intrepid
[13:17] <TheSheep> didn't you work around it?
[13:19] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, So are you saying you installed the package from -proposed?
[13:20] <TheSheep> yeah, I have proposed enabled in my repo list
[13:20] <TheSheep> and I'm doing regular updates
[13:21] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, Please report your success as a comment on bug #232364
[13:21] <cody-somerville> Say you that before the update you were experiencing the problem but after the update you no longer experience it
[13:21] <TheSheep> cody-somerville: when did you actually made the fix available, btw?
[13:22] <TheSheep> cody-somerville: because the bug seems to be gone since several weeks
[13:22] <cody-somerville> It was accepted June 30th
[13:23] <cody-somerville> Did you maybe make the changes yourself?
[13:23] <TheSheep> no
[13:23] <Volkodav> Is there a 64 bit opera on their site?
[13:23] <TheSheep> Volkodav: no
[13:23] <TheSheep> Volkodav: the yare too lazy to make a 64-bit version
[13:23] <Volkodav> there must be reps somewhere
[13:24] <TheSheep> same ith Adobe and other lazy bums
[13:24] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, Can you pastebin your /etc/xdg/xfce4/xinitrc ?
[13:24] <Volkodav> I have beta 2 9.5 running 64 bit
[13:24] <TheSheep> Volkodav: there is no 64bit opera, period.
[13:24] <TheSheep> Volkodav: it's possible to run 32bit opera on 64bit
[13:24] <Volkodav> Version
[13:24] <Volkodav> 9.50 Beta 2
[13:24] <Volkodav> Build
[13:24] <Volkodav> 1800
[13:24] <Volkodav> Platform
[13:24] <Volkodav> Linux
[13:24] <Volkodav> System
[13:24] <Volkodav> x86_64, 2.6.24-19-generic
[13:24] <Volkodav> Qt library
[13:24] <Volkodav> 3.3.8b\
[13:25] <Volkodav> too long paste sorry
[13:26] <TheSheep> Volkodav: so it seems they made it finally?
[13:26] <TheSheep> Volkodav: that's great news, sorry for confusion
[13:26] <Volkodav> I have been running it for a while
[13:26] <Volkodav> I'll find the link
[13:26] <TheSheep> Volkodav: maybe you could add the link to the howto on opera on the wiki
[13:27] <Volkodav> I might if I find 9.5
[13:27] <Volkodav> if not I can put the beta 64 that I use
[13:27] <TheSheep> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OperaBrowser
[13:27] <TheSheep> hmm... there is a link already, cool
[13:30] <TheSheep> cody-somerville: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/78351/
[13:32] <lks> anyone know how to get screensaver to work? thx
[13:40] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: TheSheep does xubuntu use PA by default?
[13:43] <gnomefreak> PA == pulse audio
[13:43] <|THoM|> I have the following question: I have a laptop with Vista on the HDD. I also have an external USB HDD for backup. I want to get the choice at booting between both OS's. When installing Xubuntu, it chooses the external USB HDD. Can I just choose the size of the partition, and than everything works without losing the files that are allready on the external USB HDD?
[13:55] <cody-somerville> lks, Yes :)
[13:55] <cody-somerville> lks, It is a bug in Hardy which I've prepared a fix for and am working on getting an SRU done.
[13:55] <cody-somerville> lks, bug #220899
[13:55] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, Okay so you are using the -proposed version. Please report success on the bug
[13:55] <lks> cody-somerville: thx for the info
[13:56] <cody-somerville> lks, This *should* fix it for you: Click sessions at login and select xfce4 and then login
[13:57] <lks> cody-somerville: does that mean it'll be done thru one of them system update?
[13:57] <cody-somerville> lks, eventually, yes.
[13:57] <lks> cody-somerville: alright, i'll try what've u told me there...cheers
[13:58] <cody-somerville> lks, before you go
[13:59] <lks> cody-somerville: anything else
[13:59] <cody-somerville> lks, if it *doesn't* work, look at .dmrc in your home directory
[14:00] <cody-somerville> lks, It should read: Session=xfce4
[14:00] <cody-somerville> Instead of: Session=default
[14:00] <cody-somerville> "[Desktop]" should be on the line above that
[14:01] <lks> cody-somerville: is not ...so i should change it to xfce4?
[14:02] <cody-somerville> lks, It should do that when you logout, click session and then xfce4, and then login
[14:02] <lks> cody-somerville: cool...nice one
[14:05] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, please :P
[14:09] <lks> cody-someville: worked like a treat...;)..lovely jubbly mate
[14:12] <cody-somerville> lks, thanks.
[14:13] <cody-somerville> Can you post your success on bug #220899?
[14:14] <lks> cody-somerville: how do u go about that...i just go the site n write what just happened
[14:14] <cody-somerville> lks, Yes, make a comment on the bug.
[14:14] <cody-somerville> Say that you simulated the affect of my upload to -proposed and that it was successful
[14:15] <lks> cody-somerville: i
[14:15] <cody-somerville> lks, Infact, if you just explain the steps you took I can make a comment explaining :)
[14:17] <lks> cody-somerville: i'll try...cos i am a bit of a novice and gotten a bit confused once there
[14:17] <cody-somerville> lks, Okay. can you send me a quick e-mail<EMAIL_ADDRESS>stating what I asked of you and I'll get back to you with detailed instructions
[14:17] <cody-somerville> I gotta jet for now :)
[14:17] <cody-somerville> lks, thanks for helping out :)
[14:18] <lks> cody-somerville : good day...i'll post something regardless
[14:22] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, you commented on the wrong bug ;]
[14:22] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, you want bug #232364
[14:22] <TheSheep> cody-somerville: how so?
[14:22] <TheSheep> arrgh
[14:24] <TheSheep> I suppose I cannot undo it?
[14:25] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, don't worry about it
[14:44] <cody-somerville> TheSheep, just make sure to comment on right bug :P
[16:40] <moj1> hello
[16:40] <moj1> i need help with my wubi installer
[16:41] <TheSheep> moj1: you need to ask a question :)
[16:41] <moj1> yep
[16:42] <moj1> i have wubi 7.04 because 8.04 wubi gives me and error message
[16:42] <moj1> with not enough ram
[16:42] <moj1> so  i ran 7.04
[16:42] <moj1> and it installed xubuntu but when the installer was finished i got a blackscreen
[16:42] <moj1> so then i powered my computer off
[16:43] <moj1> and then i get  an invalid boot.ini message
[16:43] <moj1> any idea why
[16:43] <moj1> ?
[16:44] <TheSheep> no idea
[16:44] <TheSheep> now you can't boot at all?
[16:45] <moj1> nope
[16:46] <TheSheep> try booting the livecd and looking at the contents of that boot.ini file, maybe it's something easy to fix...
[16:46] <moj1> every time i start the computer i get a loop of this message and the IBM symobol
[16:46] <moj1> im running it on a laptop with no cd drive
[16:46] <moj1> and i cannot acces anything anymore not even windows
[16:48] <TheSheep> hmm... you have a pendrive?
[16:48] <moj1> yep but my computer cannot boot from it
[16:49] <TheSheep> moj1: can it boot from network?
[16:50] <TheSheep> moj1: this page has a number of ways you can boot ubuntu:
[16:50] <TheSheep> !install | moj1
[16:50] <moj1> yeah there is that option
[16:50] <TheSheep> moj1: maybe one of these ways will work
[16:51] <TheSheep> once you have any system running, you can look at the boot.ini file to see what is wrong
[16:51] <moj1> kk il; give them a try thanks
[16:51] <moj1> kk
[16:53] <moj1> but i dont have a floppy drive
[17:01] <moj1> it will not let me boot into windows either ... i really need some help
[17:02] <zoredache> moj1: if you can't boot from a cd, floppy, or usb drive and you don't have the infrastructure to net boot then you are pretty much SOL
[17:02] <moj1> sol?
[17:03] <zoredache> sh** out of luck
[17:03] <moj1> haha well thanks
[17:03] <zoredache> up a creek with out a padel... etc...  As in a hopeless situation... :|
[17:03] <moj1> it gives me the network
[17:03] <moj1> option
[17:04] <moj1> i just need to buy a floppy drive then
[17:04] <moj1> or a cd
[17:04] <moj1> drive
[17:04] <moj1> or will that not work
[17:05] <zoredache> if you don't care about using windows anymore you could pull the drive out and put it in another computer. There a file you can DD to the start of the hard drive that will boot up the alt installer
[17:05] <zoredache> but doing that will remove everything
[17:07] <moj1> i dont want windows
[17:08] <moj1> so how would i do this
[17:08] <moj1> just put it in another comp
[17:08] <moj1> and
[17:08] <moj1> then
[17:08] <DaveKong> I would say it is easier to get a CD drive
[17:08] <DaveKong> they are dirt cheap these days
[17:09] <moj1> ok
[17:09] <moj1> but it cannot be usb
[17:09] <moj1> right
[17:09] <moj1> because my laptop
[17:09] <moj1> did have a cd drive but it fell out
[17:09] <moj1> haha
[17:09] <moj1> so we didnt bother
[17:10] <DaveKong> If you can enter your bios then you can see all the things your laptop can boot from and set it to whichever
[17:11] <DaveKong> I would say do this as simply and cheaply as possible
[17:11] <DaveKong> CDs are the easiest if you that works
[17:12] <zoredache> moj1: to do it from another computer basically you need to download http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy/main/installer-i386/current/images/hd-media/boot.img.gz then zcat it to the hard drive (zcat file > /dev/hda
[17:12] <moj1> ok
[17:12] <moj1> im am very new to all of this
[17:12] <moj1> so how do u zcat
[17:13] <moj1> and it has to be from another laptop right?
[17:13] <moj1> Davekong: oi entered my system bios and if i got a usb c
[17:13] <moj1> *cd drive
[17:13] <moj1> would it show up
[17:14] <zoredache> if you are very new it would be far better to just go buy hardware...  The method of installing probably is an expert-only method
[17:15] <DaveKong> moj1:  If you have usb there should be a usb port on your computer... if you can boot from usb then in your bios list there should be boot options and a list of choices with numbers next to them saying what order to boot
[17:15] <slimjimflim> anybody know what the kernel source directory is?
[17:15] <slimjimflim> gusty
[17:15] <slimjimflim> gutsy
[17:16] <zoredache>  /usr/src/kernel-source-nnnn
[17:16] <moj1> would that be my removable disks
[17:16] <zoredache> that is if you install the kernel source package anyway
[17:17] <slimjimflim> zoredache, i can install that any time right?
[17:17] <zoredache> yes... 'sudo apt-get install linux-source' is the package name if you where on hardy.  I don't think it changed
[17:18] <DaveKong> I am trying to go into bios on my laptop to get an idea as to what the list items may be called
[17:18] <DaveKong> give me a sec
[17:19] <DaveKong> got it..
[17:19] <moj1> kk
[17:20] <DaveKong> well my laptop has a menu going across the top and boot is one of the items
[17:20] <DaveKong> this desktop it has a vertical coloumn and I believe boot is also a category of it's own
[17:21] <moj1> yeah i think im going to buy a cd rom drive
[17:21] <DaveKong> then there is a list with floppy devices cd-rom hard drive and onboardnic
[17:21] <moj1> its only 10 bucks
[17:21] <slimjimflim> at least get a dvd drive...also 10 bucks
[17:21] <DaveKong> Did you find the list?
[17:22] <slimjimflim> i think internal dl dvd-rw drives are less than $50
[17:24] <slimjimflim> davekong, what are you trying to do exactly?
[17:25] <DaveKong> slimjimflim moj1 is unable to load his OS and he wants to boot and install xubuntu( I believe) onto his computer
[17:25] <slimjimflim> figured
[17:26] <slimjimflim> so it's just on the cd so far?
[17:26] <slimjimflim> not on an hdd?
[17:27] <DaveKong> he actually says above that he installed xubuntu and got an ini error
[17:28] <slimjimflim> during the install?
[17:28] <DaveKong> moj1:  you still there?
[17:28] <moj1> yeah
[17:28] <moj1> sorry
[17:28] <DaveKong> after the install when he restarted
[17:29] <moj1> yeah
[17:29] <moj1> so i installed it with wubi
[17:29] <moj1> and
[17:29] <moj1> then it gave me a black screen
[17:29] <moj1> and then i powered it off
[17:29] <moj1> and then i had a loop of it saying invalid boot.ini
[17:29] <moj1> and then the IBM sympol
[17:29] <moj1> *sympbol
[17:29] <moj1> **symbol
[17:29] <moj1> haha
[17:30] <DaveKong> Did grub load?
[17:30] <moj1> and i cannot access windows
[17:30] <moj1> what is grub
[17:30] <moj1> no
[17:31] <moj1> i just ran wubi
[17:31] <moj1> twice
[17:32] <DaveKong> grub is the OS loader
[17:32] <moj1> k
[17:32] <slimjimflim> oh god, sounds you've got your hands full, davekong
[17:32] <slimjimflim> i'd stay and help, but i'm getting called in to work
[17:32] <DaveKong> cya slim
[17:32] <moj1> cya
[17:33] <DaveKong> moj1 alright so I got a list of things I think you should do
[17:33] <DaveKong> first off
[17:33] <darcy> Hi there, I'm brand new to LINUX and I can't seem to get my computer to network with my wife's Windows XP computer? Any ideas?
[17:33] <DaveKong> if you want to get rid of windows do you have all your important files backed up already?
[17:33] <moj1> yeah
[17:33] <DaveKong> darcy:  read about samba that is the most i know
[17:34] <darcy> what is samba
[17:34] <DaveKong> lets you network with other OSes
[17:34] <DaveKong> go to the ubuntu forums and search for it
[17:35] <DaveKong> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samba_(software)
[17:35] <shane__> ok darcy ill be back in 45 if yah need any more help k
[17:35] <darcy> thanks DaveKong
[17:35] <DaveKong> yw
[17:36] <moj1> yeah
[17:36] <DaveKong> moj1: Alright now if you can boot from CD-rom and you are willing to invest in one or get your old one working I would say do that
[17:36] <zoredache> darcy: can you be a bit more specific about what you mean by 'network'?  are you wanting to access files, serve files, or do something else
[17:36] <moj1> ok is there any way of not using a cd rom
[17:37] <DaveKong> moj1:  If you can boot from USB then I would say that is your second best choice but is a little more advanced
[17:37] <moj1> yeah i tried that
[17:37] <moj1> but
[17:37] <moj1> my laptop does not support it
[17:37] <moj1> it wont read the usb device
[17:37] <darcy> I want to access files from my wife's computer which is XP and use them, alter them, etc.
[17:37] <DaveKong> moj1: you also have the floppy option
[17:38] <moj1> yeah but i need to get a floppy drive then
[17:38] <moj1> do
[17:38] <moj1> *so
[17:38] <moj1> ill probably get the cd drive looks like it will be handy later anyways
[17:38] <zoredache> darcy: if you only need to access files you only need fusesmb or smbfs...  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FuseSmb
[17:39] <moj1> i was reading
[17:39] <DaveKong> moj1:  it will make it easier if you want to try a few different boot discs as well
[17:39] <moj1> ok but can u hook ur laptop up to your computer
[17:39] <moj1> and install linux that way
[17:40] <moj1> i read it online but it looked complicated
[17:40] <DaveKong> yea well that is why I was saying go with a CD
[17:40] <DaveKong> it is the simplest way
[17:40] <moj1> kk but is there the way of hooking it up
[17:41] <DaveKong> If you don't have the user manual for your computer you should look it up online
[17:41] <DaveKong> and see what you can install in it and how
[17:41] <DaveKong> laptops are more tricky than desktops
[17:41] <zoredache> moj1: yes there are many many ways to connect things and install, but of them are very complex and not well documented...
[17:43] <moj1> ok
[17:43] <moj1> i will just get the cd drive
[17:43] <moj1> thanks guys
[17:43] <moj1> cya
[17:43] <DaveKong> good luck cya
[17:47] <vehystrix>  is there any way I can have my computer send a keystroke (space, followed by a left mouseclick) to an application every minute?
[17:48] <TheSheep> vehystrix: generally yes, althhough it's not trivial, there might be an esier way to do that
[17:49] <TheSheep> I mean to do what you're trying to achieve
[17:49] <vehystrix> how so?
[17:49] <zoredache> why do you need to do a space and click once a minute?
[17:49] <TheSheep> no idea, because I don't know what's n your mind :)
[17:51] <vehystrix> internet form, I need to submit it approx once a minute, so the space will scroll the page down, with the mouce placed at the right position so it will come to hover over the right button, and then it will left click, submitting the form and reloding the page, after which the process can start over again
[17:52] <zoredache> vehystrix: are you sure it isn't something that can be done with a browser script (see greesemonkey) or curl
[17:52] <vehystrix> I don't know any of those things...
[17:53] <vehystrix> In windows I could set up a schedule to send them keystrokes, but here it seems not possible
[17:53] <zoredache> greasemonkey is a  plugin for mozilla based browser that lets you run javascrip that you write on every page load
[17:54] <vehystrix> and how would javascript submit that form after one minute?
[17:55] <zoredache> I am not going to write it for you... but there is a timer event in javascript that you can wait for a period of time then call a function
[17:56] <vehystrix> timout function right?
[17:56] <vehystrix> I know some javascript, but I wouldn't know how it can submit a form...
[17:57] <zoredache> just get a handle to the form. then call its submit method
[17:58] <vehystrix> hmm
[17:58] <zoredache> vehystrix: and the timeout is 'setTimeout'
[17:58] <vehystrix> I think I'll be trying that...
[18:00] <zoredache> just look on the greasemonkey site... there are thousands of users scripts that you can copy and paste from...  I would be very surprised if you couldn't find one close to what you want if you spend some time looking
[18:00] <vehystrix> I didn't even think of that...
[18:00] <zoredache> vehystrix: http://www.greasespot.net/
[18:01] <zoredache> vehystrix: rule #1 of pragmatic programming.  always steal from someone else before inventing something yourself
[18:01] <vehystrix> hah
[18:02] <vehystrix> another question: Firefox sometimes hangs, and after some time, it'll just continue as if nothing happened, any idea how this could happen?
[18:04] <zoredache> buggy add-ons (re flash) is the cause of 95% of the issues I see in firefox.  I tend to run with the 'flashblock'... But it could also be a slow web server, badly written javascript, or many other things
[18:06] <vehystrix> the thing is, it only hangs here, if I go to the exact same sites with the same addons, and even more of them, but on windows, it's all fine
[18:06] <vehystrix> also, could this be because it's FF3?
[18:26] <Shaba1> Hello anyone at the keys
[18:27] <zoredache> !anyone | Shaba1
[18:28] <darcy> How do you get networking between two household computers to work. I have tried installing samba and fuse but have not been able to get them to work.
[18:29] <Shaba1> both ubuntu?
[18:29] <zoredache> darcy: can you tell me more about step you had problems with for fuse?
[18:29] <Shaba1> or xubuntu
[18:34] <darcy> With Fuse, I went to the Synaptic Package Manager and had it install Fuse, then the window jsut disapears. The same thing happened with samba. I don't seem to be able to find it to "activate it" or "turn it on".
[18:35] <darcy> I'm used to Windows XP where I just share my drive with full permissions and state the network is MS Home, then I'm done.
[18:36] <zoredache> darcy: did you read that link I gave you?
[18:36] <zoredache> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FuseSmb
[18:37] <Shaba1> not to be sarcastic but welcome to the wonderful world of linux darcy
[18:37] <Myrtti> are both of the computers Linux?
[18:38] <darcy> My laptop is Linux and the other computer is Windows XP.
[18:38] <darcy> zoredache: I have read the website and gone to the link in it.
[18:39] <darcy> When I download the stable release, what do I do with it?
[18:39] <zoredache> sorry?  I don't see anything in those instructions telling you to download something
[18:40] <Shaba1> Same setup here darcy
[18:40] <Shaba1> what are you specifically trying to do?
[18:41] <darcy> Sorry my mistake
[18:41] <darcy> I read part, but not all.
[18:41] <darcy> One sec.
[18:44] <darcy> the site that they list here shows up for only a little and then changes to another utuntu site :https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages?action=show&redirect=UniversePackages
[18:45] <zoredache> that isn't an instruction it is just an fyi thing...
[18:46] <zoredache> you should be probably be starting at the point 'now enter a terminal and type.....'
[18:47] <darcy> How do you enter a terminal?
[18:48] <shane__> darcy go to aplications
[18:48] <zoredache> applications->accessories->terminal
[18:49] <shane__> hey darc give me a call im at home now
[18:56] <shane__> hey as to darcy prob with network,could he not use the fish site connect
[18:56] <Shaba1> darcy what exactly are you trying to do
[18:56] <shane__> or can that be done with a microcrap computer
[18:58] <zoredache> fish?
[19:09] <shane__> yah it isthe openssh-serverclient through konqueror
[19:10] <shane__> im not sure if that can be done to a micrsoft system though
[19:11] <zoredache> windows does not have an ssh server built in...  And getting one working seems to either cost money, or be difficult
[19:14] <th0r> zoredache, openssh is available for windows and is no harder to install than openssh for linux
[19:16] <zoredache> th0r: oh?  can you point me to a windows binary that allows scp/sftp to work that is as easy to install as 'apt-get install openssh-server'?
[19:16] <th0r> zoredache, give me a sec
[19:17] <th0r> zoredache, http://sshwindows.sourceforge.net/
[19:17] <th0r> zoredache, but I have to tell you I have had little success with scp or sftp in either windows or linux.
[19:17] <th0r> zoredache, I find it much more dependable to do ftp through an ssh tunnel
[19:19] <zoredache> I have never had problems with sftp/scp...  Or the guis like gtk-ftp,winscp,filezilla.
[19:19] <th0r> zoredache, I never tried the gui's...was using scp and sftp from the linux cli or using winscp
[19:21] <zoredache> oh, as to that that sshwindows. Any suggestions that is a bit more recent?  There have been several security issues patched in ssh in the last 4 years.
[19:26] <th0r> zoredache, trying to determine the version I have installed...just a sec
[19:27] <th0r> zoredache, nope...that 3.8.1 is the one I have been using.
[19:29] <zoredache> yeah, and that concernce me...  Particularly if it is going to be an internet facing ssh server
[19:41] <kiadriver> Hi all, anyone know how to deal with the nm-applet password at login? Found thread referring to ubuntu but not working with xubuntu
[19:43] <th0r> kiadriver, you might try installing the gnome-keyring and making sure gnome services are started at login
[19:44] <kiadriver> th0r, installed libpam-gnome-keyring and added @include common-pamkeyring to gdm but got authentication error
[19:46] <kiadriver> passwords are the same for login and keyring
[19:49] <kiadriver> Another q - screen res is set to 1280x768, screen capable of 1280x800, not available in settings, have gone into xorg.conf to edit but ut's the barest xorg.conf I've ever seen, just refers to configured monitor. Any ideas of getting 1280x800?
[19:52] <kiadriver> Another q!  - wifi is rt2500 chipset, driver is rt2500pci, crap connection, sudo iwconfig wlan0 rate 54M sets it to a reasonable connection but I have to do it each login. Any way to get that command to run automatically on start?
[19:53] <zoredache> create a script in your home directory, and add it to your autostarted applications
[19:54] <zoredache> you would need to adjust the sudo config to not ask for a password when running iwconfig
[19:54] <vehystrix> wow, can't believe it actually worked... Thanks zoredache and TheSheep
[19:56] <kiadriver> Thanks, zoredache, it gives me a start to get it sorted!
[20:01] <lince>  hi is there any way to make windows open CENTERED?
[20:03] <zoredache> lince: I believe you can do with with devilspie
[20:03] <lince> LOL, so there is no native way to achieve this but only with KDE?
[20:06] <zoredache> I am not aware of any... xfce is aimed at being light-weight.  automatically positioning windows seems like something most people won't need
[20:57] <vehystrix> how do I get my mic to work with skype?
[21:00] <vehystrix> geen idee
[21:09] <th0r> vehystrix, open a terminal and run alsamixer. Make sure the mike is enabled and turned up
[21:12] <vehystrix> hmm, i tried that already...
[21:12] <vehystrix> google told me to install kmix, would this help?
[21:13] <th0r> vehystrix, if you are running kde, probably
[21:14] <vehystrix> I'm not running kde
[21:14] <th0r> vehystrix, I once had a problem with skype that required I turn off the auto level feature....where you tell skype to control the mike level automaticlly
[21:15] <vehystrix> oh
[21:15] <vehystrix> I tried the kde fix, and I was able to change the volume setting of the capture, which I was unable in the xfce mixer
[21:18] <vehystrix> it seems that actually did the trick
[21:18] <vehystrix> enable the capture and mic bypass in kmix
[21:18] <vehystrix> now I can change it in the xfce mixer as well
[21:18] <vehystrix> even after uninstalling kmix
[21:18] <vehystrix> o_O
[21:21] <gaurdro_> I've been trying to get some better info on that to file a bug somewhere with.  alsamix and the Xfce applet won't keep recording settings (always set volume to 0) until you use another mixer to set them
[21:23] <vehystrix> weird thing is that they work as they're supposed to after you used kmix once
[21:25] <th0r> vehystrix, might have something to do with kde. I installed xubuntu (xfce) and nothing else, and had no problems getting the mike to work with skype
[21:26] <vehystrix> I installed xubuntu as well, from the 8.04 live cd
[21:27] <vehystrix> no kde on the system
[21:29] <gaurdro_> basically it works after using any other mixer, not just kmix.  i'm a bit confused as to where to file a bug though.
[21:30] <vehystrix> ubuntu bugtracker?
[21:30] <vehystrix> or launchpad
[21:36] <gaurdro_> I'm not sure if i'd go with xubuntu, ubuntu or further upstream
[23:17] <arf`> hi
[23:18] <Genelyk> Hi
[23:19] <arf`> on a xubuntu hardy, the font in the menu bar are a bit crap only for firefox
[23:20] <arf`> it looks like the font is not anti-aliased/hinted/sub-pixeled
[23:24] <TheSheep> arf`: you have antialiasing enabled in user interface settings?
[23:25] <arf`> yeah
[23:25] <arf`> all other apps are cool
[23:25] <TheSheep> arf`: was it disabled at any time?
[23:25] <arf`> only firefox looks different
[23:25] <arf`> no
[23:26]  * TheSheep scratches his head
[23:26] <arf`> i changed the font parameters in .gconf, but no result
[23:26] <TheSheep> you could look for some settings about fonts in about:config in firefox
[23:26] <arf`> yeah, i tried this too (something.css)
[23:26] <TheSheep> firefox only pretends to look like it's native, it has its own rendering and display
[23:26] <arf`> it doesn't change
[23:27] <arf`> TheSheep: yeah, that's what i found on some ubuntu forums
[23:28] <arf`> at a time, I were thinking that the "system" opposite to native related to gnome
[23:28] <arf`> the reason why I configured the gnome fonts in same way I did for xfce4
[23:28] <arf`> but it doesn't work
[23:29] <TheSheep> it normally works on a fresh install... unless it's some strange fornt you are using
[23:29] <TheSheep> what font is it?
[23:29] <arf`> the default (sans)
[23:29] <arf`> link to dejavu I think
[23:29] <TheSheep> yeah
[23:30] <arf`> for what I searched, the problem is not so frequent, and it's not so easy to find something cause a lot of problems are with the web page fonts, not with the app fonts
[23:32] <TheSheep> in this case it's the menubar, so it's definitely the app font :)
[23:32] <arf`> the fact is it seems to be not really important, but at use it's annoying
[23:33] <arf`> I also were thinking that perhaps the problem exists for a lot of people, but appear just in some extrem conditions (ie small fonts)