[02:45] <james_w> if there are any buildd admins around could you please bump the priority of https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/initramfs-tools/0.98.1ubuntu4/+build/1964533 as it breaks installing initramfs-tools on armel, and hence building images
[03:06] <StevenK> james_w: Bumped.
[03:06] <james_w> merci
[08:38] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Good to know for the future, thanks.
[08:56] <SpamapS> ugh.. bzr branching samba is.. painful
[08:56] <SpamapS> 238964kB   372kB/s / Fetching revisions:Inserting stream:Estimate 110480/110699
[08:56] <SpamapS> 165M	.bzr
[08:56] <SpamapS> oi!
[08:57] <persia> #bzr can probaby help more with data analysis to improve performance.  We just use what they send us.
[08:58] <SpamapS> Its an impressive amount of data.. :-P
[08:59]  * SpamapS hopes to only do this once ;)
[09:00] <lifeless> package or upstream?
[09:01] <lifeless> its a big tree (its big in git too)
[09:03] <lifeless> SpamapS: how are we doing perf wise with Launchpad, a couple of months down the track.
[09:03] <lifeless> from your perspective-as-user
[09:03] <lifeless> persia: and you, any thoughts?
[09:04] <persia> I get significantly more timeouts, to the point that I avoid using LP if there is another way to get the same data, but pages that do render render considerably faster.
[09:04] <SpamapS> lifeless: most things are better. converting bugs to questions still stinks. ;)
[09:05] <lifeless> yes
[09:05] <persia> I'm really looking forward to the performance enhancement program ending, under the (perhaps false) expectation that this will lead to an increase in the timeout window for stuff that takes too long.
[09:05] <lifeless> its being worked on , there is a patch atm to do the email component async from the web xact
[09:05] <lifeless> persia: no, the timeouts are going to be clamped at 5 seconds
[09:05] <SpamapS> I haven't gotten timeouts regularly on anything except converting bugs to questions, which I only do about once a month anyway.
[09:06] <persia> Oh :([
[09:06] <lifeless> persia: long transactions cause gc issues in the db server, locking issues (when the xact is a mutating one) and can cause cascading failures.
[09:06] <lifeless> persia: the solution to things that are slow is to make them fast.
[09:07] <persia> lifeless, Fair enough: now make it fast enough that I don't care that you clamp it at 5 seconds :)
[09:07] <SpamapS> lifeless: your message about the problem of putting 1000 entries ina  todo list had me wondering if a unique key couldn't be used to coalesce those notifications.
[09:07] <lifeless> persia: we'll be able to make exceptions when something goes screwy to raise the timeout, but those will be rare and temporary.
[09:08] <SpamapS> lifeless: oh and to answer your first question, this is branch lp:ubuntu/samba
[09:08] <SpamapS> 369M	.bzr
[09:08] <SpamapS> final size of the shared repo
[09:08] <lifeless> SpamapS: does it have full upstream history ?
[09:08] <lifeless> persia: thats the goal; we're aiming for a <1 second response for nearly all (99%) of backend renders
[09:09] <persia> lifeless, Things that I don't even bother trying to do anymore include: 1) filing apport bugs with lots of data (limited data is fine), 2) searching for anything at all, 3) attempting to look at "more data" beyond what I get by default (which usually isn't sufficient for the sorts of auditing I want to do)
[09:09] <lifeless> persia: the first stage is 5 seconds, at which point the hard timeout will stop being lowered.
[09:09] <SpamapS> lifeless: first entry is timestamp: Fri 2004-10-15 14:31:58 +0200
[09:09] <lifeless> persia: search shouldn't timeout at all except for one case : Distribution:+search
[09:09] <lifeless> SpamapS: guess not
[09:09] <persia> I think that's a really good plan, and likely to get better results than turning off the timeout again once some performance work has been done.
[09:10] <lifeless> persia: apport bugs is a high pri one, I mailed the list about the root cause today in fact
[09:10] <lifeless> its just faulty programming, not intrinsically a lot of work though, so it can be fixed.
[09:10] <persia> lifeless, search *shouldn't* timeout? Hrm.  I'll have to try that again.  Lots of times if I'm searching for something very specific, I used to have >30 second response times, and since the limit, I get nothing.  I'll try again, and report the results.
[09:10] <lifeless> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-project/+bugs?field.tag=timeout
[09:11] <lifeless> master timeout list
[09:11] <StevenK> It would be amusing if that page timed out
[09:11] <lifeless> persia: search for 'search' in the text of that page you can see the known search isues
[09:12] <lifeless> and I think I found a dup :)
[09:12] <persia> Won't: it's already finding nearly the limit of the available window: one would have to report lots more bugs and do extensive URL hackery to get a timeout.
[09:12] <StevenK> persia: I know that it wouldn't time out, I was just chuckling and thinking it would be ironic
[09:12] <lifeless> we'll reject requests for too large a batch size anyway
[09:13] <persia> lifeless, I'll definitely give it a try, but not likely before release, as my list of things I *really* want to get done isn't going down nearly as quickly as I'd prefer.
[09:13] <persia> StevenK, It would be wonderfully ironic, yes.
[09:13] <persia> lifeless, That's mixed news to me: sometimes I really want lots of rows (yes, I know, go use the API)
[09:13] <lifeless> persia: sure, just saying if you get a search timeout: check that listing, if its not one of the search bugs on that page, file a bug.
[09:13] <lifeless> persia:
[09:13] <lifeless> bah
[09:14] <lifeless> 300 is the cap
[09:14] <lifeless> I think this is a bit noddy
[09:14] <persia> I'll definitely do that.  From today, I'll put "searching on launchpad" back in my list of potentially acceptable actions to perform.
[09:14] <lifeless> its a proxy for 'do not let users use too much resources'
[09:14] <lifeless> but we have a more direct measure - the hard timeout
[09:14] <persia> really, with the API in place, anything more than ~150 isn't likely to render usefully for anyone.
[09:15] <lifeless> so I think we should consider remove it and just timeout if someone tries too much (and programatically ignore the errors)
[09:15] <persia> Ah, if the only reason for the limit is to prevent timeouts, yeah, that should be dropped.
[09:15] <lifeless> its the only reason i can think of
[09:15] <persia> Indeed: helps identify things better that way.
[09:15] <lifeless> certainly not aesthetics
[09:15] <persia> If there are any other little "um, well, maybe this will make things faster" heuristic limits, those probably ought be removed as well.
[09:16] <lifeless> persia: that limit isn't to make it faster; its to prevent bad behaviour - subtle but important difference
[09:16] <lifeless> we have other ones with the same characteristics, at different layers, and I'm not [yet] ready to remove them.
[09:17] <lifeless> when we're down to 5 seconds, yes.
[09:17] <lifeless> but only when we've also got timeout caps on backend tasks
[09:17] <lifeless> (which we don't today, partly because they are used to workaround frontend performance issues
[09:17] <persia> Used to be I'd regularly review lists of 500-700 bugs with something in common, and perform useful actions as a result of that.  Would be nice to get that as a rendered list, rather than having to write my own frontend, but I admit I have somewhat specialised needs.
[09:18] <persia> Which reminds me: was something done about the slowness of e.g. loading results 750-825 of 1237?
[09:18] <lifeless> persia: the 300 batch size one I support removing happily.
[09:18] <lifeless> persia: what slowness? we don't have a report on that atm
[09:19] <persia> Well then, next time I have any excuse to do a big bug scan, I'll enable some timers in my browser, and report a bug if there is useful variance: I only have remembered subjective experience, which is useless for diagnostic purposes.
[09:20] <lifeless> sure
[09:20] <lifeless> if you look in the page source
[09:20] <lifeless> there is a time report at the bottom
[09:20] <persia> Oh, cool.  That makes life easy then.
[09:20] <lifeless> thats the time that (for the moment, until that figure is universally healthy) we're using to analyse things.
[09:20]  * persia tries to concoct an example
[09:25] <persia> Very snappy indeed: Getting above 1.79 seconds requires more effort than I'm willing to spend at the moment.
[09:26] <lifeless> persia: \o/
[09:29] <persia> I did get a 20000 microsecond difference for 0-75 of 637 (+/- 20) vs. 225-300, but that could just be collision with other users.
[09:29] <persia> (and I'll remember that other SI modifier any second now)
[09:29] <lifeless> µ ?
[09:29] <persia> No, that's the one I remember :p
[09:29] <persia> m
[09:30] <persia> Anyway, a fifth of a second or so.
[09:32] <lifeless> we have quite a lot of noise atm
[09:32] <lifeless> basically I'm not analysing anything once a page gets 99% of requests done in < 4 seconds: future work.
[09:33] <persia> That's fair.  I'll definitely let you know about my next timeout, although I expect it will take some time for me to migrate my work back towards LP.
[09:34] <lifeless> persia: fair enough
[09:34] <lifeless> persia: anyhow; I think you can see some improvement ;)
[09:35] <persia> I see massive improvement.  Enough that I'm tempted to try to use it as a tool again.
[09:35] <lifeless> cool
[10:32] <Kano> hi, i did install of maverick daily now, and i selected sda5 as target, but that stupid installer installed it to the mbr, why=
[10:41] <ogra_cmpc> doko, i made it !!! got root on the ac100
[10:42] <persia> ogra, Cool!  can you access a bootloader?
[10:42] <persia> (or otherwise swap kernels)
[10:42] <ogra_cmpc> persia, still trying to find out how to mount the bootloader partition
[10:42] <ogra_cmpc> i dont want to swap kernel
[10:43] <ogra_cmpc> i want to be able to boot from SD ... the kernel is fine (old though)
[10:43] <persia> Sorry: I'm looking at a goal past the goal you mention :)  Ideally, be nice to have the SD slot free whilst running Ubuntu :)
[10:44] <ogra_cmpc> heh, indeed
[10:44] <ogra_cmpc> i only managed to break in right now so i didnt examine much yet
[10:44] <persia> But, yeah, alternate booting would get you 90% of the way there.
[10:44] <ogra_cmpc> right
[10:45] <persia> I'm getting very tempted: it's much faster than a replacement for my Netwalker, and similar price.
[10:45] <ogra_cmpc> there is no fstab or anything on android so it seems that everything is done by the bootloader/kernel cmdline
[10:45] <persia> Yes.
[10:46] <persia> Well, everything at boot time.  There's dynamic loading of USB devices for some flavours.
[10:46] <ogra_cmpc> the init.rc looks suspiciously like an upstart script
[10:47] <persia> Wouldn't surprise me, really.
[10:47] <ogra_cmpc> i bet Keybuk would know if they used it
[10:47] <zyga> Kano, please report a bug about ubiquity
[10:48] <ogra_cmpc> oh ! there is a chroot binary, i should be able to chroot from init to an sd system
[10:49] <persia> That won't get you device access :(
[10:50] <ogra_cmpc> but a sanee system to work from
[10:51] <ogra_cmpc> android is just unusable and painful
[10:51] <ogra_cmpc> a shell whete all keys work would be a massive progress already :)
[10:52] <persia> Well, true, and then cp lets you get contents back.
[10:53] <ogra_cmpc> eventually i'd like to flash a sane fastboot onto it but thats far in the future i think
[10:53] <ogra_cmpc> first step is done though :)
[10:55] <persia> Excellent.  Let me know if you get so you can launch X from the chroot, or ssh into it: either is likely enough to make me want one.
[11:20] <mdke> kees: sorry, I don't know anything about how manpages are translated - I guess any translations would come from upstream but I don't know for sure
[11:35] <mdke> can I ask someone with permissions to request a translation export of all templates at https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/ubuntu-docs and send me the link
[11:35] <mdke> I think that anyone in ~ubuntu-core-dev should be able to do this
[11:35] <mdke> unfortunately due to something screwy about LP's permissions, I can't download these translations even though I can upload this package
[11:37] <persia> mdke, You just want the tarball?
[11:37] <persia> PO or MO?
[11:38] <persia> (also, it doesn't seem to need core-dev: it's some other weird permission)
[11:38] <mdke> persia: po tarball would be perfect, thanks
[11:39] <persia> LP claims it ought be ~15 minutes.
[11:39] <mdke> brilliant, thanks
[11:40] <mdke> persia: if you could just msg or email me the link that would be great, I have to pop out now. Thanksa gain
[13:29] <wzssyqa> can i request syncing packages from debian?
[13:31] <wzssyqa> now, for 10.10 , I am maintainer of these debian packages
[13:32] <jpds> wzssyqa: You can use the 'requestsync' script in the ubuntu-dev-tools package.
[15:57] <torti> hi. in ubuntu 10.10beta when i install linus-source, extract the .tar.bz2, do "make oldconfig" and "make modules_prepare" before installing the vboxdrv (virtualbox 3.2), the resulting vboxdrv.ko has magicversion <IP_ADDRESS>, thus cannot be loaded since the kernel has 2.6.35-22-generic. is this normal in the beta or is this a bug?
[15:57] <torti> /linus/linux/
[15:58] <torti> i think <IP_ADDRESS> comes from ubuntu's /boot/config-2.6.35-22-generic, because it has: CONFIG_VERSION_SIGNATURE="Ubuntu 2.6.35-22.32-generic <IP_ADDRESS>"
[16:00] <ScottK> torti: #ubuntu-kernel is probably a better place to ask.
[16:00] <torti> thank you, scott
[18:01] <Chipzz> jpds: you were wrong. He couldn't atm, freeze and all that (cfr topic)
[18:44] <ScottK> Chipzz: Depends on what the package is and what the change is.
[19:25] <sense> Why would Perl regexes from GTK#'s GAPI2 parser work on the Launchpad build farm, but not on my local installation? Is there any reasonable explanation for that?
[19:25] <sense> The same GAPI2 version, the same files, the same string, the same regex.
[19:49] <Aemaeth> why wouldn't the blueman applet be chosen over the other bluetooth that was installed?  blueman has better support for DUN and equivalent support for the other bluetooth features
[20:44] <Aemaeth> ubuntu-one needs an option to backup / and enough to keep settings
[20:45] <fagan> Aemaeth: well we are getting oneconf
[20:45] <fagan> it backs up app configs
[20:45] <fagan> theres no point in backing up / because a lot of it is stuff on the cd and that would take up a hell of a lot of space
[20:46] <Aemaeth> i've never claimed my wants were rational
[20:46] <fagan> ha
[20:46] <Aemaeth> can skip anything that apt can get for you
[20:47] <fagan> Well the config files are the most important things to back up
[20:48] <Aemaeth> i'm not sure i could keep track of everything i've edited
[20:48] <hyperair> hmm so it's ubunutone-etckeeper
[20:51] <steve__> hello all, sorry for the off topic, but is there anyone that could chat to about trouble shooting a ?broken usb drive. Im hoping you may be more than averagely qualified to help) ;)
[20:53] <hyperair> try #ubuntu
[20:54] <steve__> hyperair, I have tried #ubuntu... but thanks for the idea. know of any other channels that could help?
[20:54] <hyperair> your local ubuntu channel?
[20:55] <hyperair> judging from your ip address, i'm assuming #ubuntu-g
[20:55] <hyperair> b
[20:55] <hyperair> er
[20:55] <hyperair> #ubuntu-gb
[20:55] <hyperair> i mean #ubuntu-uk
[20:55] <popey> yeah, people about in -uk
[20:56] <steve__> hyperair, Good plan, going to my first lug meet soon (finally) so will see if anyone has any ideas. ;) I will have a look see on #ubuntu-uk. Thanks and have a good one
[20:56] <hyperair> np
[21:47] <Ologn> Digg has this dugg - http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/
[21:48] <Ologn> That should solve some problems, hopefully
[22:03] <penguin42> Oh that is nice


[16:26] <snwh> mpt it was suggested I ought talk to you about mockups I've done, regaring unity settings in Ubuntu: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/main.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-applications2.png
[16:30] <mpt> snwh, that icons URL <https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/status-spheres-screenshot.png> gives me a 404.
[16:31] <mpt> now, to the settings panel
[16:31] <snwh> mpt, that one's gone so it'll 404
[16:32] <mpt> snwh, if an Ubuntu user sees the word "Unity" anywhere in the UI, we've screwed up.
[16:32] <snwh> "Dash" then?
[16:33] <snwh> since it's present in the UI already
[16:33] <mpt> We have names for specific elements -- Dash, Launcher, menu bar, windows, notification bubbles, etc -- and that's unavoidable, but there's no reason for people to know that some those elements are part of "Unity" and some aren't.
[16:33] <mpt> "Dash" would be fine, yes.
 Have you considered making the Dash settings part of the "Appearance" tab? There are pros and cons to doing that.
[16:35] <snwh> I think that was briefly discussed when I sent these through unity-design ML
[16:36] <snwh> would it not be more easily found if it were out front -as it were?
[16:37] <mpt> Yes, it would
[16:37] <mpt> I designed a separate "Launcher & Menus" panel a while ago for the same reason
[16:37] <mpt> (back when we were considering making the menu bar more configurable)
[16:38] <snwh> such as the infamous autohide menu.
[16:38] <mpt> So that would be one of the cons. The pro is that it would avoid panel proliferation, with the ugly orphan effect in your mockup.
[16:38] <mpt> (orphan = the last item on a row by itself)
[16:39] <snwh> and we don't want to stretch it again as for U1
[16:39] <mpt> Unfortunately the hard work of merging panels isn't as sexy as creating new ones
 I don't know what "Dash Form Factor" means, and I doubt other people would either :-)
[16:40] <mpt> The menu label is far too far away from the menu -- it should be 12px or so
[16:40] <mpt> "Search Results" looks awkward as a heading when it's the only heading in the panel.
[16:41] <mpt> I've found a good heuristic when designing is that if you're repeating a word several times, you can usually factor it out.
[16:42] <mpt> What's the repeated word here, and how could you solve that and the single-heading problem at the same time?
[16:43] <snwh> Well "Lens"
[16:43] <snwh> a title i suppose
[16:44] <snwh> I wasn't sure about the labeling but to differentiate lens from scopes
[16:46] <mpt> I think "Lens" and (especially) "Scope" falls into the same category as "Unity" :-)
[16:47] <mpt> but actually I was looking at the main area of the "Dash Home" sub-panel specifically
[16:47] <snwh> I thought of putting it in since installable lens and scopes appear in the Software center with that as a label
[16:47] <snwh> Ah "results"
[16:47] <mpt> "Search Results", "Amazon results", "Ubuntu One Music Store results"
[16:47] <mpt> bingo
[16:48] <mpt> So, how could you fix that?
[16:48] <snwh> i had a version without, but thought if its too much i'll be told to remove it
[16:48] <snwh> drop it entirely?
[16:48] <mpt> That's one way. How else?
[16:50] <snwh> scrap it and put the Amazon and U1 store scopes on the left?
[16:50] <mpt> That's a possibility, but I'm not sure what would go in the main area in that case. How else?
[16:51] <snwh> putting me on the spot. I'm blanking
[16:53] <snwh> if the header was gone.. and just the checkboxes..?
[17:05] <mpt> snwh, if someone asked you what these checkboxes do, what would you say?
[17:07] <snwh> Unchecking would prevent Amazon results from appearing in the Dash home
[17:07] <snwh> for example
[17:07] <mpt> And what would checking them do?
[17:07] <snwh> show the results
[17:07] <mpt> good
[17:07] <snwh> a switch
[17:07] <mpt> Those are good words to use in a label
[17:08] <mpt> When searching, show results from:
[17:08] <mpt> [/] Amazon
[17:08] <mpt> [/] Ubuntu One Music Store
[17:08] <mpt> Since it shows results from your PC as well, perhaps "include" would be even better than "show".
[17:09] <snwh> of course

[17:10] <mpt> snwh, would there be a "Show results in Dash Home" checkbox for every lens?
[17:11] <snwh> something along those lines
[17:12] <mpt> Can you think of a drawback to presenting settings for the Dash Home contents that way?
[17:12] <snwh> if a user wanted to hide the results from the home, but not disable the lens entirely
[17:13] <snwh> not knowing which are disabled
[17:13] <mpt> right
[17:14] <mpt> It would be difficult to see, at a glance, which items might appear and which wouldn't.
[17:14] <mpt> You'd have to navigate to each item in the list and then look at its "Show results in Dash Home" checkbox.
[17:15] <mpt> How might you make that quicker?
[17:15] <snwh> a massive checklist
[17:15] <snwh> perhaps under home settings
[17:16] <snwh> would a tree view be too much
[17:16] <mpt> Ah, but you already have a tree view there :-)
[17:16] <mpt> How about using the same one?
[17:16] <snwh> but with an indication of which are disable
[17:17] <snwh> -ed*
[17:17] <mpt> That would work
[17:17] <mpt> Or, you could move the checkbox itself into a column of the treeview.
[17:18] <snwh> of course
[17:18] <snwh> this is why youre the professional
[17:19] <mpt> heh
[17:19] <mpt> With regard to Unity, we're both interested bystanders. :-)
[17:19] <snwh> i was concerned with the advent of more and more lenses this is a missing feature
[17:20] <mpt> yes indeed
[17:23] <snwh> but beyond my skills to try myself
[17:29] <bizhanMona> HI all, according to this URL: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-June/035445.html  Ubuntu is planning to not to use GRUB 2 for UEFI secure boot. Is this still standing? Thx
[17:29] <bizhanMona> HI all, according to this URL: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-June/035445.html  Ubuntu is planning to not to use GRUB 2 for UEFI secure boot. Is this still standing? Thx
[17:31] <snwh> well mpt, i shall fix the mockups
[17:31] <me4oslav> bizhanMona Try asking on just #ubuntu ... I guess :)
[17:31] <mpt> snwh, good work. Thanks for getting involved.
[17:32] <snwh> mpt, thanks for taking the time
[17:32] <snwh> to set me straight
[17:32] <snwh> heh
[17:33] <mpt> bizhanMona, this isn't really the appropriate channel for that, but no. <http://blog.canonical.com/2012/09/20/quetzal-is-taking-flight-update-on-ubuntu-secure-boot-plans/>
[17:33] <mpt> bizhanMona, if you have more questions after reading that, I suggest asking in #ubuntu-devel.
[17:34] <mpt> (Though I see you already got the same answer in #ubuntu-desktop.)
[17:37] <bizhanMona> mpt: thanks I placed the question on a few ubuntu- channels at the same time, I was not sure which one is the appropriate place. Now i know. thank you.
[17:38] <mpt> np
[19:17] <snwh> alright, mpt some improvements made: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-applications.png
[19:17] <mpt> snwh, nice work
[19:18] <mpt> snwh, all the panels are settings panels, so "Dash Settings" might be a little redundant :-)
[19:19] <mpt> What choices would be available in the "Dash size:" menu?
[19:20] <snwh> I was thinging full-screen, reduced(?) and automatic
[19:20] <snwh> think*
[19:22] <mpt> snwh, do you know what "Automatic" does?
[19:23] <snwh> Would choose either full-screen or reduced depending on the screen size.
[19:24] <snwh> i guess its not clear to an end user
[19:24] <snwh> "Adapt-to-screen"
[19:26] <mpt> so, there are three options
[19:26] <mpt> Do you think a menu is the best way to present those three options?
[19:26] <snwh> radio buttons?
[19:27] <mpt> yep
[19:28] <mpt> Open the Dash: ( ) Full screen  (*) Reduced on large screens
[19:28] <mpt> or something like that
[19:29] <mpt> (maybe "Dash size:" would actually be clearer for that)
[19:29] <mpt> I guess the "Home" lens item shouldn't have a checkbox at all, eh
[19:30] <mpt> but the rest of them need a column heading to explain what the checkboxes are for
[19:30] <mpt> What could that be
[19:30] <mpt> Oh, I left out the "Automatic" option
[19:30] <mpt> for the Dash size
[19:31] <snwh> well the checkbox is to invoke the status of the lens/scope
[19:31] <mpt> If there are three or more options, radio buttons shouldn't be laid out horizontally -- in this case because they wouldn't fit, but in general because it would mean they were differing distances apart
[19:31] <snwh> so: "Enabled" as a column
[19:31] <mpt> but there's plenty of room here to go vertical
[19:33] <snwh> but doesnt a checkbox have the implicit meaning of whatever it does is enabled or not?
[19:33] <mpt> Size for the Dash when opened: (*) Automatic
[19:33] <mpt>                                ( ) Full screen
[19:33] <mpt>                                ( ) Reduced on smaller screens
[19:33] <mpt> or something
[19:34] <snwh> the radio buttons wouldnt go under the label?
[19:34] <mpt> they could, depending on the width
[19:34] <snwh> okay
[19:35] <mpt> snwh, yes indeed, "Enable", like "Enabled", is best avoided -- invariably it can be rewritten more meaningfully
[19:36] <mpt> I guess a fully explanatory heading would be "Include in Home Results"
[19:36] <mpt> I wonder if that could be shorter
[19:36] <snwh> but then Home is under "Include in Home results" which is paradoxical
[19:36] <mpt> That's okay if it doesn't have a checkbox
[19:37] <snwh> okay
[19:43] <snwh> mpt, could the radio buttons go something like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png
[19:44] <mpt> snwh, yep
[19:45] <mpt> snwh, the radio buttons was just an idea ... it depends partly on how much space is available, and partly on how important the setting is
[19:46] <snwh> well the "window controls" do exist when the dash is present
[20:04] <snwh> mpt, i think we're getting somewhere https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-applications.png
[20:05] <mpt> Progress indeed
[20:06] <me4oslav> I just came to say, that snwh's speed of creating mockups is to infinity and beyond. **flies away**
[20:07] <snwh> the HUD is very useful in GIMP
[20:11] <mpt> snwh, I need to concentrate on messaging menu stuff now, but I'd be interested to see how the rest of the screens look tomorrow perhaps
[20:11] <mpt> snwh, also, has didrocks seen your work?
[20:13] <snwh> no didrocks hasnt
[20:14] <snwh> i could have the other screens completed
[20:15] <snwh> mpt, i did have a thought on the messaging menu though -regarding icons
[20:15] <mpt> snwh, ah, were you the one who did the colored envelopes?
[20:15] <snwh> yes
[20:16] <mpt> The tricky thing is that we are trying to communicate two different things with the icon
[20:16] <mpt> (1) whether you have new (important) messages or not
[20:16] <mpt> (2) what your chat status is
[20:16] <mpt> Currently we're using the color of the envelope for (1), and the emblem for (2).
[20:17] <mpt> You use the color of the envelope for (2), which gives up (1) altogether as far as I can see.
[20:17] <snwh> what if the envelop were to blink?
[20:18] <mpt> I think that would be unpleasant, because you may want to leave it for hours
[20:18] <snwh> true
[20:18] <mpt> (Actually I think it used to blink, briefly, for a while in the 9.10/10.04 era)
[20:18] <mpt> (and sabdfl rightly scotched it)
[20:19] <snwh> i fail to recall that..
[20:19] <me4oslav> what if only a part of the envelope is coloured in-some-colour?
[20:19] <snwh> my thought was to use the colours since the new message blue would still convey its meaning and revert to the green or what have you when read.
[20:19] <mpt> me4oslav, that's pretty much what the emblem achieves -- with the benefit that it's using miniatures of the same icons Empathy uses itself.
[20:20] <mpt> The problem with the current icons, I think, is that the emblems don't stand out strongly enough against the envelope. That's partly a problem of color (not bright enough), partly size (a little too small), and partly outline (maybe the envelope should have an emblem-shaped chunk cut out of it).
[20:22] <snwh> the different shapes are a bit garish, if they were all circles? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/status-spheres-screenshot.png
[20:22] <me4oslav> mpt - I think (major rajor personal opinion) that this colourful emblem is a bit too much (could be very wrong, through)
[20:23] <mpt> snwh, with both the envelope and the emblem, the differing shapes helps people who are color blind
[20:24] <mpt> (or have lesser color impairments)
[20:24] <mpt> However, they are a bit *too* different in size right now
[20:24] <mpt> e.g. the triangle looks much larger than the square
[20:25] <snwh> very true
[20:25] <snwh> if the emblem was within the circle?
[20:26] <snwh> then the overlay would be too small
[20:29] <snwh> mpt, what is it was no longer an envelope?
[20:29] <snwh> if*
[20:32] <snwh> but i suppose thats the most familiar metaphor
[20:32] <snwh> answering my own questions.
[20:36] <mpt> snwh, yes, it could be a speech bubble or something instead
[20:36] <snwh> like the good ol' me menu of the past, heh
[20:36] <mpt> yep
[20:37] <mpt> (which is fair enough, since it is a merger)
[20:37] <mpt> oh, wtf
[20:37] <mpt> OMG Ubuntu, a week ago: "Where no chat accounts are enabled you’ll still be stuck with an annoying green dot (to denote ‘online)."
[20:37] <mpt> And nobody thought to report a bug about that?
[20:38] <snwh> i noticed that with my green envelope thing, but thought it was something i'd done
[21:07] <mpt> (reported bug 1056457)
[21:27] <snwh> mpt, how about shapes like this? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/alternate-message-menu.png
[21:28] <mpt> snwh, that looks okay, except that now you're showing chat status in two different ways
[21:28] <mpt> (a) color of the envelope, and (b) color+shape of the status icon
[21:30] <me4oslav> mpt snwh - In case you haven't seen it: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/09/is-an-off-switch-for-the-shopping-lens-in-the-works
[21:31] <mpt> :-)
[21:32] <snwh> I only changed the shapes, just now. havent touched the envelopes
[21:32] <snwh> Geez Joey is everywhere
[22:08] <mpt> If Joey was here, I would scowl at him here for not reporting that bug
[22:35] <mpt> snwh, I reported http://launchpad.net/bugs/1056488 about the messaging menu icons
[22:35]  * mpt -> home
[22:37] <me4oslav> mpt you've at the office 'til 11.37?
[22:37] <me4oslav> O.o
[22:37] <me4oslav> PM that is
[22:37] <mpt> yeah, I was sick this morning so started at 3pm
[22:38] <mpt> anyway, toodle pip
[22:39] <snwh> All the way over here in Canada it's only 639pm
[22:40] <me4oslav> 1.40 AM ... had 4 coffees today, can't sleep ... oh well, I can always start work bit later tmrw :)
[22:42] <snwh> me4oslav, indeed you can
[22:43] <snwh> that sounds like my usual coffee consumption
[22:44] <me4oslav> So, that's what the secret about the mockups is :D
[23:22] <snwh> me4oslav, how to you like these circles? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/status-spheres-screenshot2.png
[23:24] <me4oslav> snwh - circlesepcion on invisible :P
[23:24] <snwh> easy to do in inkscape
[23:25] <snwh> i thought of an infinity symbol for busy
[23:26] <me4oslav> let's steal Skype's - tick on a grey circle and see what happens
[23:27] <me4oslav> BTW, after those two are done (Dash in System Settings and messaging menu icons) mind mocking up a sound menu design, I have in on pen ana paper (better than the last ones you've seen), I just suck at mockups.
[23:29] <snwh> not a problem
[23:30] <me4oslav> AWESOME. I will go to bed now (just to lie down and read some bizarre fiction), obviously I won't be able to sleep :D