[00:02] <shauno> http://www.extrastores.com/ImagesSections/Gallery/Flayers/3232011FLY/6.H.jpg
[00:02] <shauno> this made me giggle.  poor, poor windows mobile
[00:04] <hamitron> hehe
[00:04] <hamitron> is it actually that bad? ;/
[00:05] <shauno> no idea, I'm not aware of anyone who's paid for it yet.  but that's actually a legit flyer from a retailer :/
[00:06] <hamitron> wp7 does have a few advantages
[00:06] <hamitron> well, at least 1
[00:06] <hamitron> ;/
[00:06] <hamitron> no, 2 I can think off
[00:06] <hamitron> of*
[00:06] <shauno> exchange integration, apparently ;)
[00:07] <hamitron> that isn't one ;/
[00:07] <hamitron> imo it will be better for developers, a more generic platform to target.... unlike android
[00:08] <hamitron> plus, I suspect so few people will get it, not many virus will be written to exploit it
[00:08] <hamitron> ;)
[00:10] <BigRedS> I've heard a few people say good things having used win mobile 7
[00:10] <BigRedS> it does sounds quite interesting
[00:10] <hamitron> I would be tempted, if I was in the market for a smart phone
[00:11] <hamitron> windows 7 for pc does actually feel good
[00:11] <hamitron> MS have actually impressed me for once
[00:12] <shauno> haven't tried it yet :/
[00:12] <hamitron> I pre-ordered it, got a retail copy for 45 quid
[00:13] <hamitron> I didn't want to at the time, was hoping wine would improve faster
[00:13] <hamitron> but I was just overly optimistic
[00:14] <hamitron> so now I've decided, gonna just run most stuff natively
[00:14] <hamitron> linux is better for work, windows is better for games
[00:22] <hamitron> talking of games, gonna install my entire collection on steam
[00:22] <hamitron> :)
[00:23] <shauno> heh.  that's one thing I'm not so much looking forward to with new laptop
[00:23] <hamitron> why?
[00:23] <shauno> long & boring download
[00:24] <hamitron> oh, I backed up the downloads on my fileserver
[00:24] <hamitron> can't be downloading 70Gb too often
[00:24] <shauno> anyhow, back in a while.  rebooting to take a crack at gnome3's livecd, because I haven't even peeked at gnome-shell yet
[00:24] <hamitron> okies :
[00:24] <hamitron> :D
[00:25] <hamitron> I still have cravings for gnome 1.x :/
[01:06] <penguin42> wth does Google have an ice cream sundae as it's logo today?
[01:07] <shauno> it's sunday \o/  ?
[01:07] <hamitron> they like to spend money wisely, offering different logo images to attract idiots...errrrr customers
[01:23] <shauno> I appear to have done horrible, horrible things to my filesystem :D
[01:25] <BigRedS> that's a good thing?
[01:25] <shauno> no, not really
[01:28] <BigRedS> Ah, I suspected as much :(
[01:28] <shauno> done a pretty good job of it this time tho.  EFI just hangs when it tries to read the partition table
[01:28] <BigRedS> Oh. That is rather horrible
[01:28] <BigRedS> You've just put me off doing a dist-upgrade on the fileserver at my dad's
[01:28] <BigRedS> well, starting it now and going to bed
[01:29] <shauno> :D
[01:29] <shauno> this thing's always refused to boot from usb, and my dvd drive got destroyed by someone's demonspawn a few years back
[01:29] <shauno> so I thought I'd try dd'ing an iso to a spare partition
[01:29] <BigRedS> ahhh
[01:29] <shauno> just on the off chance that it'd pick it up as a bootable fs
[01:30] <shauno> apple have been bitten by the oldest curse.  we just keep making better idiots :D
[01:30] <BigRedS> yeah, I've tried that sort of thing once. It doesn't :(
[01:30] <BigRedS> haha
[01:31] <shauno> hm.  I don't appear to have an external caddy that'll take sata
[01:33] <hamitron> :/
[01:34] <shauno> I think for now, bed, and pick up a caddy from work tomorrow.  if I keep at this, chances are I'll just fluff her laptop too
[01:34] <BigRedS> bah. usb/sata things are invaluable
[01:34] <shauno> got a really handy firewire one, but it's only ide.  I should update that one of these eons
[01:35]  * hamitron lacks usb toys
[01:35] <hamitron> got an internal sata hd caddy though
[01:36] <BigRedS> haha, yeah. my sata one is one of the ide ones with sata sort of tacked on as an afterthought
[01:36] <BigRedS> anyway, I'm falling asleep here, so I should probably go and do that in a bed...
[01:57] <d3ngar> Hi there
[01:58] <hamitron> evening
[01:58] <d3ngar> I can't connect to the computers within a VPN connection: that said, I can ping both computers from the host, but the two computers can't see one another. They both see the host though
[01:59] <d3ngar> I think it's a routing problem, only I know nothing about it
[01:59] <d3ngar> Any help?
[02:00] <em> isn't it ridiculously late in the uk ?
[02:00] <d3ngar> Saturday?
[02:00] <hamitron> i dunno I'm afraid, can wait around and see if anyone is still awake
[02:00] <hamitron> or try #ubuntu
[02:00] <hamitron> :)
[02:00] <d3ngar> :)
[02:00] <d3ngar> I might
[02:01] <hamitron> an hour a go I may have researched
[02:01] <hamitron> but I'd be a liability now I am tired (even more than normal)
[03:08] <HazRPG> Daviey: you haz sage?
[08:11] <HazRPG> morning all
[08:12] <MartijnVdS> morning
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> AAGH
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> compiz seems to "forget" some windows
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> so they disappear (app is still running)
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> Switching to metacity makes them show up again
[08:14] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: \o/
[08:14] <HazRPG> oh
[08:14] <HazRPG> that's bad
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> I think it's but 719001
[08:14] <HazRPG> hmm, see I keep seeing metacity, what is it >_<
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> I think it's bug 719001
[08:15] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: metacity is "The" gnome window manager
[08:15] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: (not 3D-accelerated)
[08:15] <HazRPG> ah :)
[08:15] <HazRPG> yeah
[08:15] <HazRPG> compiz is just the fancy effects :)
[08:15] <HazRPG> (essentially)
[08:15] <MartijnVdS> And a completely different window management "engine" underneath
[08:16] <MartijnVdS> The metacity one is much more mature
[08:16] <HazRPG> indeed
[08:16] <MartijnVdS> Hm. Sunday morning. Let's try XFCE :)
[08:16] <HazRPG> what's beryl (I think its called)
[08:16] <HazRPG> is that like a plugin to compiz
[08:17] <HazRPG> I recall seeing that like years ago when compiz was "new"
[08:17] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: Beryl was a fork of compiz with even more flashy effects
[08:17] <MartijnVdS> it merged back into main compiz afaik
[08:17] <HazRPG> ah
[08:20] <AlanBell> the original compiz didn't accept contributions and was coded in private with occasional code drops
[08:20] <HazRPG> wonder if summer of code has anything interesting planned for this year
[08:20] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: ah yes, along with XGL
[08:20] <HazRPG> AlanBell: morning :)
[08:20] <AlanBell> so it got forked and a large and active community quickly made beryl rather awesome, if a bit flaky
[08:21] <AlanBell> then the compiz developers decided to do open source properly and they all made friends and lived happily ever after
[08:21] <MartijnVdS> Now compiz is still a bit flaky at times
[08:21] <AlanBell> it was called compiz-fusion for a while whilst re-merging
[08:21] <MartijnVdS> especially if some company starts hacking its own stuff into it ;)
[08:22] <AlanBell> very true
[08:22] <MartijnVdS> Has everyone seen the cool WebGL at http://bodybrowser.googlelabs.com/ ?
[08:22] <HazRPG> AlanBell: ah, that was going to be my next question... because I recall seeing compiz/beryl disappear and then compiz-fusion suddenly came on the scene
[08:22] <MartijnVdS> (it's still in April Fools mode, but you can click through to "normal" humans easily)
[08:23] <HazRPG> I must say, at the time, I was planning on integrating compiz to ubuntu when it was new, but got so confused as to how, and why there was beryl and compiz variations
[08:23] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: I have :)
[08:24] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: ah wait, I haven't seen the cow one... I've seen one of a human being
[08:24] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: it does male and female now.. and cow 8-)
[08:25] <HazRPG> the male and female was there originally :P (or at least female was)
[08:25] <MartijnVdS> female was, yes
[08:25] <HazRPG> I recall linking it in facebook :P
[08:25] <MartijnVdS> It helped my mom tell the doctor which bit of her back was hurting :)
[08:26] <HazRPG> heh awesome
[08:32] <AlanBell> actually that is tomorrow
[08:33] <AlanBell> skype was lying to me
[08:33] <HazRPG> ?
[08:34] <HazRPG> do any of you guys integrate google calendar into evolution so that it shows up in the panels calendar?
[08:34] <HazRPG> I've noticed that now it takes a while from clicking, to actually showing up since I've done that :(
[08:35] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: I used to.. but I've reinstalled since
[08:35] <MartijnVdS> never bothered to set it up again
[08:57] <HazRPG> right time for a quick nap been a long day ^_^
[08:57] <HazRPG> I think I might have converted another person to ubuntu last night :D
[08:58] <HazRPG> as always, I've installed ubuntu whilst in windows (wubi) so that they can have a play around with it and get to grips with it... yet fallback to windows if needs be
[08:58] <HazRPG> (Usually set ubuntu as the default options, and set the timer to 1min, that way they've got the option but at least it does actually encourage them to use ubuntu more often too)
[08:59] <HazRPG> hopefully if she likes it, I might get to geekify it (as she calls it) and change it over fully :)
[09:00] <HazRPG> she was having a bit of trouble understanding the whole "no real virus" part of it
[09:00] <HazRPG> she kept saying "I don't want to install dodgy software on it" and I told her she doesn't need to worry about most of that, as long as she uses the software centre
[09:01] <AlanBell> there is a bug about dodgy software in the software centre
[09:01] <HazRPG> AlanBell: oh?
[09:01] <AlanBell> different people have different thresholds of dodgyness
[09:02] <HazRPG> she meant dodgy as in "random toolbars", "things that give you pop ups all the time", "viruses" etc
[09:02] <HazRPG> where her examples
[09:02] <HazRPG> were*
[09:04] <AlanBell> !info pornview
[09:04] <AlanBell> there was a recent discussion about that one
[09:05] <HazRPG> wow that managed to get accepted onto the software centre!
[09:05] <HazRPG> I thought the repo was managed (sort of)
[09:12] <BigRedS> It is managed...
[09:21] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I thought so
[09:22] <HazRPG> BigRedS: Did you manage to read through my post yet btw? Still awaiting some sort of feedback for it, since I know it worked on mine... however it might not on others (different configurations, etc) and want to make sure everything is outlined and easy to understand for all (that is my main goal with it)
[09:23] <HazRPG> I've probably mentioned a few times now, but I would like to (at some point) make some videos for doing all of these things I learn so that others can learn them too (blogging about them is the first step imo :))
[09:23] <BigRedS> HazRPG: nah, I meant to this weekend, but other things broke so I've been fixing them instead so far :(
[09:23] <HazRPG> BigRedS: ah, its no problem
[09:25] <HazRPG> hmmm... always worries me to see "Windows" show up in my site logs :/
[09:25] <HazRPG> esp. IE6 and WinNT4
[09:25] <BigRedS> haha
[09:27] <HazRPG> /2009/03/28/songbird/ seems to be a popular thread for some reason, and yet no one posts any comments or any rates... and they always seem to be windows users with old machines, old browsers... and also found trying other various directories that don't exist... it's a scary thought
[09:28] <HazRPG> hmm I didn't realise you could get Safari for Linux :/ (looking at logs with a keen eye)
[09:29] <BigRedS> I don't think you can. But it's trivial to change your user agent in firefox :)
[09:29] <HazRPG> true
[09:29] <BigRedS> well, change your reported user agent
[09:30] <HazRPG> rofl, apparently a google search for "Me haz shiney..." pointed to my blog xD
[09:30] <Unnheulu> How do I stop xchat from automatically joining this channel?
[09:30] <HazRPG> Unnheulu: What's wrong with this channel :(
[09:31] <Unnheulu> HazRPG, too many people talking :P
[09:31] <HazRPG> hmm, not really lol
[09:31] <HazRPG> not as much as #ubuntu
[09:31] <Unnheulu> More than #wesnoth or #xmot
[09:31] <BigRedS> er, it's buried somewhere in the preferences, I know I found it last time I used xchat
[09:31] <Unnheulu> *xmoto
[09:32] <BigRedS> but I've not got a ubuntu gui handy at the minute
[09:32] <Unnheulu> irssi? :P
[09:33] <BigRedS> Yeah, this is irssi on debian, but debian's xchat is quite different from ubuntu's
[09:34] <HazRPG> I have have to change my robots.txt file
[09:34] <HazRPG> might*
[09:35] <BigRedS> ah, to avid being at that search term?
[09:35] <willy1977> morning
[09:35] <BigRedS> I wonder if there's a way to negate keywords
[09:35] <HazRPG> yeah
[09:35] <HazRPG> that and I've never heard of Yandex until I saw it being crawled about a few hundred times on April 1st
[09:36] <BigRedS> ahh
[09:36] <BigRedS> there does seem to be a weird multiplying of little search engines
[09:36] <BigRedS> which is nice
[09:36] <HazRPG> how so?
[09:37] <BigRedS> well, just the fact that people think they're bringing something unique along; implies at least some innovation's going on
[09:37] <BigRedS> even if most of that innovation is probably "We're not as evil as the big guys"
[09:37] <HazRPG> heh good point
[09:39] <HazRPG> I must say, its interesting to see how my blog is actually being looked at now
[09:39] <HazRPG> I'm just use to seeing spiders and crawlers all the time, and on average 1-2 visits (a week)
[09:40] <BigRedS> yeah, i _very_ rarely see any visitors that aren't me. Though I don't think I've updated it in several months...
[09:40] <BigRedS> you're on the planet aren't you?
[09:40] <HazRPG> I am now yeah
[09:40] <BigRedS> I image that'll get you a bunch more spiders and real-life hits
[09:40] <HazRPG> indeed
[09:40] <HazRPG> that's where the Yandex came from I'm guessing
[09:42] <daubers> Morning
[09:42] <HazRPG> daubers: morning :)
[09:42] <BigRedS> Hm. I think I've just seen the world's shortest ad break. I didn't even have time to get up to go and make coffee, let alone make the coffee
[09:43] <HazRPG> BigRedS: what was it for?
[09:43] <BigRedS> The ad was for TV on More4. I'm watching Scrapheap Challenge on More4 now.
[09:43] <BigRedS> it went to break, showed a single ad, then went back to the show
[09:44] <HazRPG> heh nice
[09:45] <HazRPG> you know... I actually watched a BBC channelf for the first time in years, because my friend and I were talking about adverts - and he raised an interesting thought - for years I thought BBC had adverts just like any other channel, but it actually doesn't! The things they show are all just BBC related
[09:46] <BigRedS> ah, I'm the opposite; nearly everything I watch is BBC
[09:46] <HazRPG> same, but on iPlayer
[09:46] <HazRPG> and I raised the topic by saying "hmm, how come iPlayer never has any adverts on it?"
[09:46] <BigRedS> yeah; most of what I watch is catch-up-TV
[09:46] <BigRedS> haha!
[09:47] <HazRPG> and he just looked at me in that weird way he does... and point with both fingers shouting "because the BBC doesn't show adverts!"
[09:48] <HazRPG> I thought he was winding me up because it was april fools... but he's actually right
[09:49] <HazRPG> just goes to show how the mind will just zone out when your use to it being done one way on other similar things that you just instantly assume all are the same
[09:50] <BigRedS> haha, yeah
[09:50] <HazRPG> although this is too early in the morning for psycho. bable :P
[09:50] <HazRPG> still find it amazing
[09:51] <BigRedS> I just soaked myself in washing out the cafetiere
[09:51] <BigRedS> I think that's a pretty good indication that I need the coffee that's in it now :)
[09:51] <HazRPG> heh indeed
[09:52] <HazRPG> *lugs some coffee he made earlier*
[09:53] <HazRPG> hmm I should buy me a cafetiere...
[09:53] <BigRedS> hah, speaking of adverts, this one's almost a documentary
[09:53] <BigRedS> yeah, cafetieres are handy. You make one coffee, get two cups :)
[09:53] <BigRedS> well, two mugs. A 'cup' in coffee is tiny
[09:54] <HazRPG> indeed
[09:54] <HazRPG> mug = champion :)
[09:54] <willy1977> caretiere++
[09:55] <willy1977> *caffetiere
[09:55] <willy1977> think I need coffee :p
[09:55]  * daubers is reducing his caffeine intake, so no coffee this morning
[09:56] <BigRedS> I think I'm back down to decaff weekdays and caffeinated weekends
[09:56] <HazRPG> I don't see the point in that lol
[09:56] <HazRPG> what's so wrong with caffeine :)
[09:57] <Gary> ICANHASCOFFEE
[09:57] <HazRPG> beats a pint any day
[09:57] <BigRedS> It's fine normally, but it's easy to get to the point where there's a dependence on it
[09:57] <HazRPG> coff:ee::1
[09:57] <BigRedS> and at that point you need something stronger when 'just' a coffee doesn't wake you up
[09:57] <HazRPG> BigRedS: really?
[09:57] <BigRedS> also, you get _really_ bad sleep when you drink that much coffee
[09:58] <Gary> I just cooked myself a lovely fry up, omnomnom
[09:58] <BigRedS> yeah, I used to drink ~6 cups a day, and at the weekends I was useless without at least two or three
[09:58] <Gary> I'm useless no matter how many I drink
[09:58] <BigRedS> it's weird, you go without caffeine for a few weeks, then have a coffee, and actually get that caffeine high!
[09:59] <HazRPG> see I find coffee doesn't ever do anything for me, I just like the taste
[10:00] <willy1977> HazRPG: it's having more of a physiological effect than you think probably.
[10:00] <HazRPG> probably
[10:00] <daubers> HazRPG: To see whats so bad with caffeine, don't have any for 3 days and watch the headaches, dizzyness and nausea wash over you :)
[10:01] <daubers> HazRPG: Your body will start chewing through it's salt reserves and energy reserves to try and make up the loss. It's not pleasant
[10:01] <HazRPG> daubers: I've went from having caffeine almost every day ... to completely stopping for 6 weeks (since I hear that's how long it takes to get it out of your system) and I noticed no change
[10:02] <daubers> HazRPG: How many cups of coffee do you have a day?
[10:02] <daubers> Did you have in a day, rather :)
[10:02] <Gary> I try to only have four a day, stop drinking coffee after 2pm
[10:02] <daubers> I was on about 7 or 8 over the last month
[10:02] <HazRPG> depends, sometimes 1 sometimes 10... I have no consistency with it, its just a "ooo... I think I'll make a coffee"
[10:02] <Gary> I was silly and had one at 10pm yesterday, I was like a hamster all night
[10:02] <HazRPG> moment
[10:04] <HazRPG> however other caffeinated beverages I tend to drink more of, but like I said I've managed to go 6 weeks without (also, didn't have sugar, nor smoke in that time and instead drank cranberry - my other fav drink)... and no change
[10:05] <HazRPG> in fact, people started forcing me to drink some form of caffeine to calm me down because I'm usually very hyper by nature
[10:05] <BigRedS> mm, I notice no change when I stop the caffeine
[10:05] <BigRedS> it's when I have some again that I do. It suddenty has some noticeable, positive effect
[10:06] <HazRPG> BigRedS: only works if you stop for 6 weeks or more, depends how dependant your body has become to it... and how much you drink
[10:06] <HazRPG> my friend said the doctor recommended he shouldn't have it for about 2 months to get it out of his system
[10:07] <BigRedS> yeah, that's the other thing, I only have two or three cups a day now
[10:08] <HazRPG> I know people who genuinely can't live without it though, and I find it hard to believe... but I've seen it happen, and its strange that it doesn't affect me in the same way (considering its almost part of my daily routine)
[10:08] <BigRedS> yeah, my dad can't really
[10:08] <HazRPG> heh my dad's the same
[10:08] <BigRedS> he has coffee before he goes to bed...
[10:08] <HazRPG> BigRedS: ... hmm I do!
[10:10]  * daubers had to give up caffeine the first time when he went on antidepressants
[10:10] <daubers> That time _really_ hurt!
[10:11] <HazRPG> I can imagine!
[10:12] <daubers> HazRPG: Also explains why it stops you being hyper, as caffeine is a natural depressant
[10:12] <HazRPG> daubers: really?
[10:12] <daubers> HazRPG: So all the antidepressant books told me
[10:12] <daubers> HazRPG: same as alcohol
[10:13] <HazRPG> I'm always more cheery when I've had me some caffeine...
[10:13] <daubers> living on the high :)
[10:13] <HazRPG> daubers: oh I know alcohol is, reason I try to avoid the stuff
[10:13] <daubers> Before the low kicks in
[10:13] <HazRPG> heh, usually fall asleep before the low kicks in
[10:15] <HazRPG> also the reason why I find it daft how so many people drink alcohol in large quantities (based on medical quantities that's allowed per week), and wonder why they're always feeling down
[10:15] <daubers> heh :)
[10:15] <daubers> I try and be a bit careful about things with that kind of effect after previous experiences
[10:16] <daubers> One of the reasons cake is so awesome is that after a sugar high you just feel tired
[10:16] <HazRPG> usually the words "but I feel confident, and good about myself, and etc" as excuses ... always amuses me no end, because people clearly have no idea how they act when pissed :P
[10:16] <willy1977> someone mention cake?
[10:16] <HazRPG> I heard cake o/
[10:17] <willy1977> onomnomnom
[10:17] <HazRPG> daubers: chocolate cake is even better ;)
[10:17] <willy1977> chocolate coffee cake... :) ahem.
[10:17] <HazRPG> daubers: all the lovelies of sugar, plus the nicity nice effects of coco ;)
[10:18] <HazRPG> willy1977: omg that's the future!
[10:18] <HazRPG> :D
[10:18] <HazRPG> or is it cocoa?
[10:18] <HazRPG> I know what I mean :)
[10:18] <BigRedS> Hah, while I was redundant and unemployed I discovered a taste for chocolate coated coffee beans
[10:18] <BigRedS> those are awesome
[10:18] <willy1977> HazRPG: a friend does a mean one but I'm like daubers (keep taking the pills :))
[10:19] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I shall have to look out for that :P
[10:19] <HazRPG> willy1977: ah
[10:20] <HazRPG> so are you not allowed to have caffeine at all? Or just really small quantities?
[10:20] <Gary> I got so drunk last night at a friends, woke up at 2am on their sofa!
[10:20] <willy1977> HazRPG: I think it's more just recommendations...
[10:20] <Gary> can't remember falling asleep, but they'd covered me in a blanket!  awww
[10:20] <HazRPG> Gary: hehe
[10:21] <willy1977> Gary: been there man ;) or you wake up with a coat over you :p
[10:21] <Gary> the sofa was not that comfy, so I waddled home
[10:21] <HazRPG> Gary: don't think I would get off so lightly around my friends... I'd probably get covered in sharpie drawings, or worse
[10:21] <Gary> HazRPG: I did check once I got home
[10:21] <HazRPG> Gary: haha
[10:22] <Gary> I did expect to have a giant penis drawn on my forehead
[10:22] <HazRPG> I know one of my friends walks around with a sharpie in his pocket at all times
[10:22] <Gary> scary friends
[10:22] <Gary> funny enough, no headache this morning
[10:22] <HazRPG> \o/ always a bonus!
[10:23] <Myrtti> hm, that was nice
[10:23] <Myrtti> had my first ever passionfruit
[10:23] <willy1977> passionfruit is nice ;)
[10:24] <HazRPG> can't say I've ever had that before
[10:24] <HazRPG> although I wouldn't be surprised if I had inside some form of tropical drink or tropical cocktail at some poitn
[10:25] <HazRPG> s/poitn/point
[10:26] <HazRPG> seems another one of my friends wants an ubuntu-laptop conversion done
[10:26]  * HazRPG think I'm in the wrong line of business here
[10:27] <willy1977> HazRPG: nice!
[10:27] <HazRPG> maybe I should change from freelance web developer to freelance techie support lol
[10:29] <BigRedS> problem with tech support is that you need to always be available
[10:29] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I'm a freelancer ... lol
[10:29] <BigRedS> since you need to respond quickly, rather tha dev work where you can mostly work to your own schedule
[10:29] <willy1977> nah... BigRedS
[10:29] <willy1977> just say you're support is available 23/7
[10:30] <HazRPG> BigRedS: i usually answer phone calls to "computer... broken down!"
[10:30] <willy1977> then if anyone can't get in touch you can say you were on your hours break :p
[10:30] <BigRedS> haha, and don't define that lone '1' :)
[10:30] <willy1977> you got it ;)
[10:30] <BigRedS> I was just thinking if you're knee deep in one customer's problem and then another rings saying they're getting no mail and they need it fixed now
[10:31] <BigRedS> I suppose just pick the customers who wont do that :)
[10:31] <willy1977> BigRedS: there are customers that wont?
[10:31] <BigRedS> well, I imagine non-businesses are more willing to wait?
[10:31] <BigRedS> I'm not sure why that became a question...
[10:32] <HazRPG> BigRedS: most of the people I help usually say "ah just come over at some point in the week"
[10:32] <willy1977> yeah true BigRedS personal have to understand it's when you start charging peoples opinions change.
[10:33] <willy1977> but you know what business customers are like their problem is always the most important :)
[10:33] <HazRPG> willy1977: business customers are usually the worst >_<
[10:33] <HazRPG> "email not working... fix it monkey man!  comes to mind
[10:34] <HazRPG> besides when I say techie support, I don't mean on-the-phone all day type techie support
[10:35] <HazRPG> I mean like a fix-it "here's my <device>" type techie support
[10:35] <Myrtti> moar tea :->
[10:35] <HazRPG> Myrtti: \o/
[10:35] <daubers> willy1977: The no caffeine thing was a recomendation, the no alcohol thing was a firm "YOU MUST NOT" and I've seen people drink on AD's before and it's not pretty
[10:36] <daubers> willy1977: Main reason I cut out caffeine was I was trying to shift my depression with diet changes while using the pills as a crutch
[10:36]  * Gary tickles Myrtti
[10:36] <daubers> however! I haven't had any pills for nearly 2 years now :)
[10:36] <willy1977> daubers: yeah I avoid the booze now
[10:36] <HazRPG> daubers: \o/
[10:36] <HazRPG> I've avoid booze since I started driving
[10:37] <HazRPG> I'll have one... (even if I'm not driving)... but that'll be all
[10:37] <daubers> HazRPG: That happens coincidentally with a lot of people :)
[10:37] <willy1977> daubers: nice work, I'm working my way down the doses hope to be off them soon, but may try and limit the caffeine and see what happens... :/
[10:37] <HazRPG> mainly because its hard to draw the line as to where the point of "is there alcohol left on my breath" or not
[10:38]  * AlanBell has real coffee
[10:38] <willy1977> AlanBell: full fat coffee?
[10:38] <HazRPG> AlanBell: best kind of coffee
[10:38] <daubers> willy1977: Make sure you eat relativley healthily too. I found walking a lot helped as well (physical exercise)
[10:38] <AlanBell> got some beans ground up at starbucks and made a pot of filter coffee
[10:38] <HazRPG> daubers: guessing my ubuntu stress ball doesn't count as exercise then :(
[10:39] <BigRedS> full fat? That implies milk, ewww
[10:39] <daubers> HazRPG: Not quite... Wii Fit does :)
[10:39] <HazRPG> AlanBell: yum :)
[10:39] <HazRPG> AlanBell: I find starbucks coffee is so much nicer when made at home
[10:39]  * daubers has a nice pot of English Breakfast leaf tea
[10:39] <HazRPG> daubers: does help to reduce pains from RSI though :)
[10:39] <willy1977> daubers: yeah got that sussed - usually train for my triathlons around 6 times a week (some days 2 sessions) can't beat those endorphines
[10:39] <daubers> HazRPG: Yes, that it does!
[10:40] <daubers> willy1977: \o/
[10:41] <daubers> also, some of the people around here are amazingly helpful and supportive when you get stuck
[10:41] <HazRPG> I don't see the excitement over exercising... maybe my body is just wired wrong xD
[10:42] <BigRedS> it's quite fun when you're fit, less so when you're *getting* fit :(
[10:42] <HazRPG> daubers: we geeks gotta stick together ya know :)
[10:42] <willy1977> HazRPG: nah, believe me I was the anti-excerciser about 1.5 years ago... BigRedS has hit the nail on the head.
[10:43] <HazRPG> BigRedS: true... I use to be in a basketball team at one point, still never saw how people got their kicks out of it... it was fun to do, but that was all lol
[10:43] <Laney> being fun isn't enough?
[10:45] <HazRPG> Laney: ...well it is, until someone points out that they enjoy doing it and they're getting a kick out of it and I don't see the same effects lol
[10:45] <BigRedS> surely they just enjoy it being fun?
[10:45]  * BigRedS is confused
[10:46] <HazRPG> some people can be a bit more descriptive about it than that lol - trying to keep language and content to a more family nature
[10:46] <BigRedS> haha
[10:46] <Laney> O_O
[10:46] <HazRPG> Laney: my reactions each time!
[10:49] <d3ngar> Hi there, I came back with the problem from last night:
[10:50] <d3ngar> I want to create a VPN network between my home server and two clients.
[10:51] <d3ngar> I can connect with both clients fine and the clients can be pinged from the server. The clients can also ping the server, but unfortunately not each other
[10:51] <d3ngar> I think it's a routing problem at the server side, but I don't know how to fix it
[10:51] <d3ngar> Any help is much appreciated
[10:52] <BigRedS> I suspect the server is unaware that it is supposed to be routing data between the two hosts
[10:52] <HazRPG> I think this might have to be my next project... I've used VPN's before... but I've never set one up...
[10:52] <BigRedS> I can't help on how to tell it to, though :(
[10:53] <HazRPG> *formulates some ideas for blog*
[10:54] <HazRPG> hmm, that's a ring back about them being read for me to go round...
[10:54] <HazRPG> *goes to gather his ubuntu-installing gear and testing devices*
[10:54] <HazRPG> always good to go prepared right?
[10:55] <willy1977> d3ngar: I guess the first thing I'd be looking at is are there any firewalls running on the clients?
[10:55] <d3ngar> willy1977: No, no firewalls
[10:56] <willy1977> all linux?
[10:56] <HazRPG> d3ngar: don't forget firewalls on routers, check your forwarding the correct ports etc
[10:56] <d3ngar> Yes
[10:57] <HazRPG> d3ngar: are you using a separate IP range for the VPN to the rest of the network?
[10:57] <d3ngar> HazRPG: Routers? Isn't it that the clients should be able to ping one another cause they are getting an IP from the VPN server?
[10:57] <d3ngar> No, I do not
[10:57] <d3ngar> I use the same IP range
[10:58] <d3ngar> The VPN server is behind the BT Home Hub
[10:58] <BigRedS> d3ngar: only if you've told the VPN server to route packets between them
[10:58] <d3ngar> BigRedS: My saying! How would I go about this?
[10:58] <willy1977> wouldn't they better off all just accessing one network? or have I missed something?
[10:58] <BigRedS> Aha, I don't know :( Are you using OpenVPN?
[10:59] <BigRedS> 'cause I've just stumbled across this: http://www.grc.com/vpn/routing.htm
[10:59] <BigRedS> (it's amusing how other people's problems are always more interesting than your own :)  )
[10:59] <HazRPG> willy1977: if he's using a VPN I'm guessing the other machines are at remote locations
[10:59] <d3ngar> I use the pptpd stuff that comes with Ubuntu
[11:00] <willy1977> ok but I just don't understand how they're all behind the same router?
[11:00] <HazRPG> BigRedS: (i know right!)
[11:00] <d3ngar> They are not in the same network
[11:01] <d3ngar> I keep them in another network to make sure that this works okay
[11:01] <willy1977> got it, before they go to remote locations of course...
[11:01] <d3ngar> Weirdly enough, the computers in behind the BT Home Hub can't ping one another
[11:01] <HazRPG> d3ngar: hmm, that is odd
[11:02] <d3ngar> But I assume that's an issue with this rubbish BT equipment and shouldn't really matter for the VPN, right?
[11:02] <HazRPG> d3ngar: might be worth checking the model number of the BT Home Hub to see if that's an issue, or if ping packets are disabled
[11:03] <BigRedS> if the VPN is between the hosts, the ping behaviour of the home hub shouldn't come into it
[11:03] <d3ngar> But the router never registers the VPN clients as connected
[11:03] <BigRedS> it just sees an encrpted stream
[11:03]  * BigRedS hasn't been paying attention, admittedlyt
[11:03] <d3ngar> yes
[11:03] <HazRPG> ah ok
[11:03] <d3ngar> So how can I make the server link the clients to one another?
[11:03] <d3ngar> It's strange...
[11:04] <willy1977> ok, I'm going to step back here afraid I don't enough about it... :/
[11:04] <HazRPG> I can honestly say I've used them, but I've never configured them
[11:05] <HazRPG> d3ngar: right, quick question... how are the IP's being assigned? That might be the route of the problems (just a thought)
[11:05] <d3ngar> The pptpd config has a range that it assigns
[11:05] <d3ngar> So the first VPN client gets <IP_ADDRESS>
[11:06] <d3ngar> The next 251
[11:06] <d3ngar> and so on
[11:06] <HazRPG> right
[11:07] <HazRPG> d3ngar: did you say that the machines inside the BT Home Hub network can't ping each other either?
[11:07] <d3ngar> No, they can't
[11:07] <d3ngar> Well, I can ping one computer
[11:08] <willy1977> can the server ping each of it's clients?
[11:08] <HazRPG> seems like something is killing the ping packets internally somehow
[11:08]  * willy1977 couldn't help himself
[11:08] <d3ngar> All computers can ping this one
[11:08] <d3ngar> But they can't ping one another
[11:08] <d3ngar> it's not on the DMZ or anything
[11:08] <d3ngar> The server can ping the clients
[11:08] <d3ngar> Both of them
[11:08] <d3ngar> No problems
[11:08] <HazRPG> can't the server ping other things inside the internal network is what I mean
[11:09] <HazRPG> can*
[11:09] <d3ngar> No
[11:09] <d3ngar> The server can not ping other computers in the domain
[11:09] <HazRPG> hmm, something internally is the problem them
[11:09] <HazRPG> how is the internal network setup?
[11:10] <HazRPG> I'm guessing the router is the DHCP
[11:10] <HazRPG> but I mean, do the other computer rely on the server for anything?
[11:10] <HazRPG> fileserver, etc
[11:10] <d3ngar> Yes, the BT Home Hub is a DHCP server and every computer, save the server, connects wirelessly
[11:11] <d3ngar> Yes, the VPN server is also a file server
[11:11] <d3ngar> And SSH and that stuff
[11:12] <d3ngar> I am confused as to why the computers can't ping one another
[11:13] <HazRPG> seems your router is the issue then
[11:13] <d3ngar> mmm
[11:14] <willy1977> I've missed something again - wouldn't they all default to using the wireless connection to the hub?
[11:14] <d3ngar> So fix this first and then see if the VPN mystically works?
[11:14] <HazRPG> if everything (other than the server) is connected wirelessly, seems your router is dropping packets for some reason
[11:14] <willy1977> it's not unusual for home routers to have the ping functionality turned off...
[11:14] <HazRPG> since your server can see the other machines... the VPN seems fine
[11:15] <BigRedS> hang on, are these three hosts all in the same physical private network, and you're also putting them in a VPN?
[11:15] <d3ngar> But why then can't to VPN clients see one another?
[11:15] <d3ngar> No
[11:15] <d3ngar> There are a few computers here
[11:15] <BigRedS> oh, I'll go back and reread :)
[11:15] <HazRPG> however when your VPN tries to ping each other, the way it works is... it goes to the server, the server asks the router since it is the DHCP client where the other machines are... but it seems the router is dropping them
[11:15] <d3ngar> Two are in an external network - through my mobile phone
[11:15] <willy1977> BigRedS: you're not alone that's what I thought was going on...
[11:15] <BigRedS> HazRPG: the router probably isn't the DHCP server for the VPN
[11:15] <BigRedS> the VPN server is
[11:16] <d3ngar> Three others are in the BT Home Hubs
[11:16] <willy1977> d3ngar: ok that's clarified...
[11:16] <willy1977> don't mobile phone's block vpn traffic without paying an extra monthly charge?
[11:16] <BigRedS> if it isn't, it probably should be. The router's the DHCP server for the physical network that contains the VPN server, but the VPN, being a different network, has a different DHCP server
[11:17] <willy1977> although if the server can see them... probably a moot point.
[11:17] <HazRPG> BigRedS: that might be true... however he's still using the same IP's as the internal network, which is probably why there's some conflict
[11:17] <HazRPG> IP range*
[11:18] <BigRedS> Ah, that will confuse things
[11:18] <d3ngar> Should I change the IP range for the VPN?
[11:18] <BigRedS> even if the software can cope with it, you'll confuse people that way
[11:18] <willy1977> right I'm going to have to get going otherwise Mrs W will be threatening nastiness.
[11:18] <willy1977> hopefully catch up later
[11:18] <HazRPG> so in theory, although the VPN has its own DHCP of sorts... the server is still bound by the internal DHCP too... and well it will be assuming that it needs to access that first (I could be wrong)
[11:19] <willy1977> d3ngar: hope you get it sorted
[11:19] <d3ngar> Thanks willy
[11:19] <HazRPG> willy1977: alright dude, catch you later
[11:19] <willy1977> np
[11:19] <BigRedS> the VPN server has two network interfaces. One is real, and has an IP address dictated by the home hub or whatever. The other is virtual (and on the VPN) and has whatever IP address you've given it.
[11:19] <HazRPG> d3ngar: okay, first things first... lets try and cancel some stuff out of the equation
[11:20] <HazRPG> d3ngar: change the range the VPN is using, that way the clients are reliant only on the server and nothing else, and see what happens then... if you can then ping each other... seems like the VPN is perfectly fine
[11:20] <HazRPG> if however you still can't ping, the problem lies elsewhere
[11:20] <d3ngar> Okay
[11:20] <d3ngar> Three minutes
[11:21] <d3ngar> What's a save range?
[11:21] <d3ngar> <IP_ADDRESS>-10?
[11:21] <MartijnVdS> d3ngar: see RFC 1918
[11:21] <BigRedS> yeah, 10.*.*.* and 192.168.*.*
[11:21] <d3ngar> !RFC1918
[11:22] <BigRedS> use for the VPN whichever of the two isn't the physical network
[11:22] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: you can use separate subnets
[11:22] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: (<IP_ADDRESS>/24, <IP_ADDRESS>/24 etc.)
[11:22] <BigRedS> yeah, but for people-friendliness I like to use entirely different classes
[11:22] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: same with <IP_ADDRESS>/8
[11:22] <BigRedS> well, I like other people to
[11:22] <Myrtti> hm. meh. I think I might be a bit allergic to fresh passionfruit :-(
[11:22] <MartijnVdS> also, there's some space in 172.
[11:22] <BigRedS> I don't actually set up any VPNs, I just like IP addresses to be instantly recognisable
[11:23] <Myrtti> throat feels a bit funny after eating the second one
[11:23] <HazRPG> Myrtti: sup?
[11:23] <Myrtti> what a shame, it tasted lovely
[11:24]  * daubers closes minecraft and goes to find his little switching hub
[11:24] <HazRPG> BigRedS: you'll be really confused when you start doing some IPv6 stuff then dude :P
[11:24] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I was at first :P
[11:24] <BigRedS> HazRPG: yeah, that's why I keep stopping
[11:24] <BigRedS> :)
[11:24] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I highly recommend when your doing the IPv6 that once you've got it working, try and do some of the tests that H.E. have on IPv6 - and it will make your life so much easier
[11:24] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: you'll be the last v4-only node on the internet?: )
[11:24] <BigRedS> I intend to get everyone else using ip6 so I can carry on using ip4 ranges :)
[11:24] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: ha! Exactly!
[11:26] <HazRPG> right, I do really need to go otherwise my friend is going to wonder what's taking me so long, but I'll discuss it with him too and probably be logged back in when I get to his... he works at a school/college messing with networks all day long so he might have some more insight on the matter :)
[11:26] <HazRPG> although I highly recommend MartijnVdS's advice too :)
[11:29] <d3ngar> No, even in a separate range, they can't ping each other
[11:29] <Pendulum> Myrtti: it's pretty rare to have an allergic reaction to something the very first time you eat it :-/
[11:30] <d3ngar> Weirdly enough, it doesn't say "Destination Host Unreachable"
[11:30] <d3ngar> But just simply doesn't do anything
[11:31] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[11:31] <HazRPG> d3ngar: still sounds like the router is doing some funny business to it
[11:31] <HazRPG> d3ngar: stopped this while I was looking for some stuff for you: http://www.computertrouble.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4741
[11:32] <HazRPG> right, really need to go... I'll bbl once I've gotten to his house
[11:32] <brobostigon> good morning HazRPG :)
[11:32] <HazRPG> brobostigon: good morning dude :)
[11:33] <HazRPG> bbl
[11:33] <brobostigon> ok, o/
[11:33]  * HazRPG puts usb-key around neck
[11:33] <HazRPG> o/
[11:35] <brobostigon> :)
[11:38] <d3ngar> mmm, i think my router is yet another model from the one described in the post
[11:38] <d3ngar> I can edit the firewall routing, but I know little about it and the terms are a bit confusing
[11:39] <d3ngar> WAN for example would be the internet?
[11:39] <directhex> yes
[11:40] <d3ngar> I'm just going to disable the firewall temporarily
[11:41] <d3ngar> That just made no difference yet again :(
[11:42] <brobostigon> bbc have ditched click again, :(
[11:42] <d3ngar> I can't understand why I can't ping devices inside my own network
[11:43] <d3ngar> I'll drop as I will restart this router :(
[12:01] <d3ngar__> I can now ping clients within my own network
[12:01] <d3ngar__> Restarting the BT router did the job
[12:02] <d3ngar__> But the VPN still doesn't work properly :(
[12:04] <d3ngar__> Is there not a way to connect the two VPN IPs with each other?
[12:04] <d3ngar__> Client A to Client B?
[12:04] <d3ngar__> With a bridge or something?
[12:05] <directhex> that's up to the network you're VPNing into to route
[12:05] <d3ngar__> But how???
[12:05] <d3ngar__> I'm close to crying :(
[12:05] <d3ngar__> How do I have to set-up my VPN to route this traffic?
[12:06] <d3ngar__> a bridge won't take of that?
[12:06] <d3ngar__> If for example I bridge ppp0 to ppp1?
[12:06] <directhex> define "my vpn". what exactly is "my vpn"?
[12:06] <d3ngar__> My VPN server
[12:07] <d3ngar__> It's here under my TV
[12:07] <directhex> running what?
[12:07] <d3ngar__> It's a Ubuntu pptpd VPN
[12:07] <d3ngar__> I just installed it through the package maintainer
[12:08] <directhex> okay, so pptp. you're assigning clients a bridged IP on your network? e.g. if a client <IP_ADDRESS> connects to it, it gets an ip like <IP_ADDRESS>?
[12:08] <d3ngar__> Yes
[12:08] <d3ngar__> It gets an IP from the VPN server fine
[12:08] <d3ngar__> No problem
[12:08] <d3ngar__> The server can ping the client
[12:08] <d3ngar__> The client can ping the server
[12:08] <d3ngar__> The clients can't ping each other
[12:09] <directhex> the client config is correct? a route is added?
[12:09] <d3ngar__> No?
[12:09] <d3ngar__> Exactly my saying...
[12:09] <d3ngar__> What would I have to do?
[12:10] <d3ngar__> I can add routes through the interface
[12:10] <directhex> i don't know about pptp, but with openvpn, there's a tickbox where you can ask it to add a route for that network only
[12:10] <directhex> then check it with "route" in a terminal
[12:11] <d3ngar__> But what would I have to tell it for Address | Netmask | Gateway | and Metric
[12:11] <directhex> the remote vpn server should offer a route
[12:11] <d3ngar__> How would that route look for example?
[12:13] <directhex> on the command line, a successful route would look how you expect
[12:14] <d3ngar__> The client gets a route for ppp0 -> <IP_ADDRESS> | Gateway: <IP_ADDRESS> | Genmask <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:14] <d3ngar__> That's not how I would expect it, but then again, I don't know how I should expect it to look
[12:14] <directhex> that mask is the problem
[12:15] <d3ngar__> How I de-mask it and give it the right mask then?
[12:16] <directhex> <IP_ADDRESS> is "this ip only"
[12:16] <directhex> you want the whole 10.10.10 subnet, right? in which case you want <IP_ADDRESS>
[12:16] <d3ngar__> Yes
[12:16] <d3ngar__> I thought as much
[12:17] <d3ngar__> But how to change it?
[12:17] <directhex> i don't know pptpd configuration
[12:17] <directhex> but it's a server issu
[12:17] <directhex> e
[12:20] <d3ngar__> :(
[12:20] <d3ngar__> I have to go
[12:20] <d3ngar__> But I will probably be back on it this evening ;(
[12:20] <d3ngar__> Gotta get this sorted before tomorrow
[12:52] <suprengr> o/ peeps
[12:52] <suprengr> Temperature: 10°C (50°F), Wind Direction: SW, Wind Speed: 10mph, Relative Humidity: 95%, Pressure: 1013mb, rising, Visibility: Very good... was the weather forecast also using PornView?
[12:55] <suprengr> on a serious note: anyone around to explain the difference between "sudo rmmod kvm_intel && sudo rmmod kvm" and doing a modprobe -r ?
[12:57] <BigRedS> I think modprobe also unloads any modules depended upon by its argument, but rmmod only removed the module its passed
[12:57] <BigRedS> so likely nothing in the exact line above, except you'd only need to do 'modprobe -r kvm_intel' and it'd spot that 'kvm' is also not needed
[12:57] <BigRedS> *i think*
[12:58] <suprengr> thanks BigRedS
[12:59] <BigRedS> no probs! Like I say, though, I'm not certain of that
[12:59] <suprengr> ...point taken
[13:01] <suprengr> the ultimate question is... would modprobe -r be permanent? [as that is what I am trying to achieve] - without recompiling kernel
[13:01] <MartijnVdS> suprengr: if you want it to be permanent, add it to the blacklist
[13:01] <MartijnVdS> But why would you want to blacklist?
[13:01] <MartijnVdS> or unload
[13:01] <suprengr> why oh why oh whyh why didn't I think of that!
[13:02] <suprengr> cheers MartijnVdS
[13:02] <MartijnVdS> suprengr: still.. no reason to not load modules usually
[13:03] <suprengr> MartijnVdS: it is stopping VirtualBox doing it's bit [usoing 10.04]. It complains about the KVM bit after every boot using rmod
[13:03] <suprengr> *using
[13:03] <MartijnVdS> ah
[13:03] <MartijnVdS> use kvm, not vbox :)
[13:04] <BigRedS> ah yeah, that's one of those unusuals :)
[13:04] <daubers> bri and turkey sammich *nom* *nom* *nom*
[13:04] <suprengr> tried... preferred vb... I know - lazy!
[13:04] <BigRedS> yeah, I've ended up migrating to VB. Though now it says 'oracle' on it I'm thinking of moving all my VB VMs over to KVM...
[13:05]  * suprengr is jealous of daubers
[13:05] <suprengr> [assuming he is noiming as well
[13:06] <jonsaint> hi folks. when will firefox 4 be avaliable in the updates???
[13:06] <BigRedS> when you install 11.04
[13:06] <BigRedS> it'll never get into the mainstream updates for 10.10
[13:06] <suprengr> BigRedS:  you don't find it a pain then?  I know it's as fashionable to be a vb'er but after a long day's work... etc
[13:06] <jonsaint> cheers bigreds
[13:07] <BigRedS> you can install through PPA if you want it quicker, Mozilla tend to maintain a PPA for it
[13:07] <suprengr> *not [as]
[13:07] <jonsaint> ppa?
[13:08] <BigRedS> suprengr: find KVM a pain? No, I used it before I used VirtualBox, so VB just seems really really easy. There's a gui Qemu config tool that makes it about as easy as vbox anyway
[13:09] <suprengr> BigRedS: ooh... didn't know that
[13:09] <BigRedS> jonsaint: yeah, it's like a personal repository, I'm sure there's a page on it in the ubuntu docs but I can't find it
[13:09] <BigRedS> !ppa
[13:09] <BigRedS> Aha! there ^^
[13:10] <BigRedS> suprengr: yeah, I can't remember what the one I used was called, though. There's a few in the repos
[13:10] <jonsaint> cheers all
[13:10] <suprengr> re jonsaint's question... wouldn't ununtuzilla be of use?
[13:11] <suprengr> jonsaint: don't use it until further opion received
[13:12] <suprengr> *opion [damn keyboard]
[13:12] <suprengr> *opinion [damn keyboard now beaten into submission]
[13:12] <jonsaint> cheers
[13:14] <suprengr> BigRedS: thanks. will go looking for it or similar
[13:40] <suprengr> BigRedS: thanks for the blacklist reminder!  used your blacklist option & now vb ok - now need to go hunt the kvm gui option. cheers
[13:40] <MartijnVdS> virt-manager \o/
[13:42] <suprengr> still considered experimental?
[13:42] <MartijnVdS> no?
[13:43] <suprengr> [that was quoted from synaptic]
[13:50] <brobostigon> any other recommendations for making video dvd's, as bresaro just died on me.
[13:51] <BigRedS> k3b might do them?
[13:51] <BigRedS> it's KDE's brasero
[13:51] <BigRedS> sort-of
[13:52] <brobostigon> let me try, :)
[13:53] <BigRedS> it will pull in a big bunch of KDE if you've not already got them, might be wort looking for a more GTK one
[13:53] <BigRedS> I just always use K3b
[13:54] <brobostigon> ok.
[14:01] <brobostigon> is there something i am missing, it wont make a videocd from a mpeg4 file.
[14:07] <brobostigon> is mpeg4 not an understood format?
[14:08] <MartijnVdS> video cds use MPEG-1
[14:08] <MartijnVdS> DVDs use MPEG-2
[14:08] <MartijnVdS> HD-DVD and Blu-Ray use MPEG-4
[14:09] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD
[14:10] <brobostigon> so i need to convert it to mpeg1?
[14:10] <MartijnVdS> yes
[14:10] <brobostigon> ok, easy, ffmpeg to the rescue.
[14:10] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: thank you.
[14:10] <MartijnVdS> There's svcd, which is mpeg2
[14:10] <MartijnVdS> ("super video-cd")
[14:11] <brobostigon> what is the difference?
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> most players support it these days (DVD players have the MPEG-2 decoding bits anyway)
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: it's MPEG-2, which gives more quality at similar bitrates
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> Because of its 480x480 resolution, SVCD picture quality is more than double that of VCD. On the downside, this increase in picture resolution sacrifices video length capacity by over 50%. Because of this, titles released on SVCD has to come in twice the number of discs of their VCD equivalents. [1]
[14:11] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i think it will have to be mpeg2 then.
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: why are you making a video-cd, not a DVD?
[14:12] <MartijnVdS> video cds are ancient tech
[14:12] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: because i just tried bresaro, and it compained about the disc format.
[14:12] <gordonjcp> video cd
[14:12] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: how?
[14:12] <gordonjcp> jeez, that takes me back
[14:12] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: it said, please put in a compatiblecd or dvd, please.
[14:13] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: i.e. an empty DVD disc
[14:13] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: yes.
[14:14]  * MartijnVdS tries
[14:14] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i could try it again, and convert said video to mpeg2,
[14:15] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: brasero offers to install "dvdauthor" when I put in an empty DVD+R and try to write some videos to disc
[14:15] <MartijnVdS> and it auto-converts to mpeg2
[14:15] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: let me see if i have that installed.
[14:16] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i didnt have dvdauthor installed here,
[14:16] <brobostigon> just installed it.
[14:16] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: brasero offered to install it for me when I tried to do something dvdish
[14:17] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: it didnt here, weird. i will try again.
[14:17] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: might be a natty feature
[14:18] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i am in natty aswell, maybe.
[14:19] <gordonjcp> I'm trying natty again
[14:19] <gordonjcp> I still can't get rid of the drop shadows
[14:20] <gordonjcp> I don't think I'll use natty, even when it comes out
[14:21] <gordonjcp> s/natty/unity/
[14:21] <brobostigon> bresaro is still saying, pleasereplace with a suppoted cd or dvd.
[14:21] <gordonjcp> anyone managed to get rid of the drop shadows in Unity?
[14:22] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: When? Before or after clicking "Burn"?
[14:22] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: before, just after i added said mpeg4 file.
[14:23] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: did you insert any DVD/CD into your writer?
[14:24] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i dont understand youre question.
[14:24] <MartijnVdS> is there an empty disc of the correct type in your cd/dvd-writer?
[14:25] <MartijnVdS> And was it detected properly? (is it in the dropdown in brasero)
[14:25] <hamitron> :)
[14:26] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: as far as i can tell,the burmer supports the dvd type i am using. and bresaro shows black dvd or like, next to the burn button, yes.
[14:26] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: there's a drop-down.. "Image file" or a disc with <x> hours free
[14:26] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: the latter.
[14:27] <MartijnVdS> What does it say?
[14:27] <MartijnVdS> ("Empty DVD-R disc, x.y GB free space"?)
[14:28] <brobostigon> blank dvd-rom disc: 1h 58 of free space
[14:28] <MartijnVdS> Does the mp4 file play with totem?
[14:29] <brobostigon> plays in vlc fine, not tried totem.
[14:30] <MartijnVdS> try totem :)
[14:30] <MartijnVdS> you might just be missing a gstreamer plugin
[14:31] <brobostigon> ok,one moment.
[14:34]  * daubers makes the tea
[15:13] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: totem plays said mpeg2 video fine.
[15:47]  * suprengr has been checking stats: of questions asked v help given by self ... you good folks win by over 2:1.. even adding in help given on #ubuntu & #ubuntu-uk stats only get to a paultry 85%.
[15:48]  * suprengr shrugs and says:  thanks to all the good folks who offer more than I do or can.
[16:13] <brobostigon> !info bombono natty
[16:14] <brobostigon> !info bombono-dvd natty
[16:14] <brobostigon> finally managed to make a dvd-video with that.
[16:14]  * brobostigon wipes his brow.
[16:15] <suprengr> whoops please /s/"even adding in help given on #ubuntu & #ubuntu-uk stats"/"even adding in help given on #ubuntu & #ubuntu-beginners"
[16:30] <HazRPG> guessing d3ngar__ still hasn't had all his problems sorted out yet
[16:31] <brobostigon> HazRPG: what problems did he have, i wasnt following.
[16:33] <bigcalm[eee]> Hi peeps
[16:34] <Pendulum> hi bigcalm[eee]
[16:35] <bigcalm[eee]> Hey Pendulum, having a good weekend?
[16:35] <Pendulum> not bad, ta.
[16:35] <Pendulum> it's sunny
[16:36] <bigcalm[eee]> Sun really does lift the spirits :)
[16:36] <Pendulum> also I just took the powerchair for a spin and it's so nice when I can do that :)
[16:37] <bigcalm[eee]> Sweet
[16:37] <BigRedS> bigcalm[eee]: pity it's owned by oracle now :(
[16:37] <bigcalm[eee]> Burn rubber and make some doughnuts?
[16:40] <bigcalm[eee]> BigRedS: sun is no more :(
[16:44] <bigcalm[eee]> Visiting Hayley's brother at hospital who is currently on a ventilator in the HDU. Lots of waiting as different family members take turns at his side. Brought my  eeepc, wish I'd have brought my laptop instead. hum ho
[16:45] <bigcalm[eee]> Oh, and USB tether FTW
[16:56] <dwatkins> My Eee is a little slow to be a proper machine, but it works well enough for IRC
[18:05]  * BigRedS returns with cake and banana milk
[18:56] <brobostigon> how do i reset ubuntu one, it isnt syncing properly.
[18:58] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Bugs
[18:59] <popey> good for troubleshooting
[18:59] <brobostigon> cheers popey
[19:07] <brobostigon> its weird, itssaying, its syncing 150+ files, when i havent even editing that many, and most have been prevousl fully synced.
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> \o
[19:39] <popey> o/
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> popey: Good thing I'm switching to XFCE I see.. with no "classic" gnome available
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> i.e. sane gnoem
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> gnome*
[19:42] <BigRedS> heh. I've just found myself with Debian everywhere...
[19:43]  * brobostigon shakes fist at ubuntu one.
[19:44] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: I want firmware for my hardware.. so Debian isn't an option
[19:44] <BigRedS> it is, it's just a convoluted on :)
[19:44] <BigRedS> *one
[19:45] <MartijnVdS> xubuntu is really nice
[19:46] <BigRedS> I do need to give xfce another go
[19:47] <brobostigon> there are loads of ubuntu one bugs, that reflect not syncing and or not being able toadd machines. arghh..
[20:08] <brobostigon> now ubuntu one seems to be trying to sync a file, i cant find that exists, but it thinks that does.
[20:12] <popey> MartijnVdS: as I said elsewhere....
[20:12] <popey> 18:33:23 <@popey> I suspect what shuttleworth means is we wont ship with Unity 3d and GNOME 2-panel 'classic' on the CD
[20:12] <popey> 18:33:43 <@popey> But for 11.10 we will probably ship Unity 3d and Unity 2d (as the fallback for non-3d owning people)
[20:13] <popey> 18:33:58 <@popey> it actually makes no sense to back Unity and actually ship something else on the CD
[20:13] <popey> 18:34:11 <@popey> that would be like shipping a CD with GNOME and KDE on it "in case you don't like GNOME"
[20:13] <popey> 18:35:05 <@popey> If you're betting your company/reputation/distro on Unity then it makes sense for both the 3d and 2d "desktop" to  y'know, _be_ Unity
[20:14] <matti> Hey ivanka
[20:15] <AlanBell> popey: centos ships gnome and kde on a cd
[20:16] <zleap> we have kubuntu for kde right
[20:17] <popey> AlanBell: not for the same reason as we ship unity 3d and gnome classic was my point
[20:17] <AlanBell> yeah, sorry didn't mean to derail your point, was just an observation
[20:18] <AlanBell> installed it for a client the other day (they suggested centos and provided the CD)
[20:18] <zleap> well i don't thjink my duron 1600 with geforce 4 can handle unity
[20:18] <zleap> so sticking with 10.04 till i get a hardware upgrade
[20:18] <popey> have you tried it zleap ?
[20:19] <zleap> well tried to boot it ages ago (ubunty 11.04 beta) and it failed, i may try again
[20:19] <zleap> i have an iso on my desktop so can make a usb flash drive thingy and try it
[20:20] <popey> i would
[20:20] <zleap> ok
[20:20] <gord> geforce 4 might work, i would guess its dependant on how good your drivers are
[20:20] <gord> ie: the open source ones might suck
[20:21] <zleap> so apart from the mac like menus, where the bar at the top displays the app menu,  and the side bar thing which I guess is an app launcher, what advantages does unity have ?
[20:21] <jenkins> I am unconvinced by unity at the moment, I have only tried in a vm. feels very basic and not very shiny, also rather like a mac dare i say it
[20:21] <zleap> jenkins, yeah
[20:22] <zleap> thing is i need basic, so my processor can spend time running applications not eye candy
[20:22] <gord> we tried a more complicated unity in 10.10 - people don't like complicated, a lot of the current UI makes sense so why change everything?
[20:22] <jenkins> I do use awn :? but going to try gnome 3 as it looks like they had some nice design ideas
[20:22] <zleap> k
[20:26] <zleap> oohhh gnome 3 looks er nice
[20:26] <jenkins> it does although to try it I am downloading fedora 15 alpah
[20:27] <iasonas> Hello, I formatted in Windows (quick format) a drive that was ext4. Is there any way of getting the files back? I have tried TestDisk, it does find a deleted partition but that's it.
[20:27] <zleap> erm
[20:28] <zleap> any idea if gnome 3 will be available for ubuntu 10.04
[20:29] <gord> 10.04? no.
[20:29] <zleap> ok]
[20:29] <jenkins> not as far as i am aware, it is via a ppa for 11.04 but there are some small bugs dues to ubuntu packages
[20:29] <jenkins> zleap: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1707669 may be of interest
[20:30] <gord> i don't recommend that ppa at all
[20:30] <gord> i'v just seen lots of people have a huge number of problems
[20:30] <jenkins> can't say i have tried it
[20:31] <brobostigon> gord: i am using the gnome3-teams ppa, no issues yet,
[20:32] <jenkins> brobostigon:  did you get evince to install?
[20:32] <brobostigon> jenkins: yes, no issues, justused it.
[20:33] <jenkins> strange been reading that there is a conflict on the new version, may be they have fixed it
[20:33] <brobostigon> jenkins: it was updates afew daysago, i didnt notice any conflict or similer,
[20:34] <DJones> Evening all
[20:34] <jenkins> good to know may try installing natty later then
[20:34] <brobostigon> ubuntu one is being a bigger issue, and gpu lockup.
[20:36] <brobostigon> eating and ircing, is not easy.
[20:37] <gord> sometimes it pays to not multi-task ;)
[20:37] <brobostigon> :)
[20:37] <brobostigon> food, with eeepc + top gear,
[20:41] <jenkins> be back off to try f15
[20:44] <AlanBell> anyone else having a go at a Natty install?
[20:44] <BigRedS> fedora? ewww
[20:44] <BigRedS> I just dist upgraded my VM and it's now not broken :)
[20:44] <BigRedS> though I did afterwards remember you're not supposed to dist-upgrade any more
[20:44] <AlanBell> really?
[20:44] <brobostigon> BigRedS: why?
[20:44] <BigRedS> well, now not knowingly broken
[20:45] <BigRedS> It used to look like Gnome in 2002, now it's got the ubuntu colours
[20:46] <zleap> lxde looks cool
[20:46] <brobostigon> openbox is a good WM.
[20:46] <zleap> i may switch to that where I am helping out could give some of the old computers we are building improved performance
[20:46] <zleap> that too
[20:47] <BigRedS> yeah, I like the sound of lxde
[20:47] <BigRedS> openbox without the faff :)
[20:47] <zleap> well something that runs on 9.04 and has low memory requirements
[20:47] <zleap> are they easy to lock down
[20:47] <zleap> ?
[20:47] <brobostigon> BigRedS: openbox is lxde's WM.
[20:47] <BigRedS> brobostigon: yeah, but it's already configured and has a panel and stuff
[20:47] <DJones> AlanBell: I tried a natty install yesterday, but it crashed out during the install, trouble is I forgot tonote the error message & since installed 10.10
[20:48] <brobostigon> BigRedS: thats lxde ontop of openbox,
[20:48] <zleap> is there a site somewhere that compares window managers and memory usage ?
[20:49] <zleap> wb jenkins
[20:50] <jenkins> thanks, running a live gnome 3 and first impressions change is good. I like it.
[20:50] <brobostigon> jenkins: what gnome-shell build version is it?
[20:52] <jenkins> where do you find out?
[20:52] <brobostigon> indebian i would look via apt-cache.
[20:53] <brobostigon> jenkins: ok,  it might be easier to ask, when the cd image was made?
[20:53] <jenkins> I will look in add/remove software, just hopped there was an about dialogue
[20:53] <zleap> system - about gnome gives some info on build version (not sure if its gnone shell build version)
[20:55] <jenkins> cd is the fedora 15 alpaha downlaoded today cd released 8th march
[20:55] <jenkins> still have the minize buttons in so i guess its a bit old
[20:55] <brobostigon> jenkins: yes,very old, loads ofgood changes after that,
[20:56] <AlanBell> so if anyone happens to be doing an install, can you hit space after the bios, select english then press F5 to get to the accessibility options, pick one of them at random and go through the install as you would have done anyway, and report bugs if it seems broken
[20:57] <jenkins> brobostigon: the mimize buttons going may take a bit of getting use to
[20:57] <brobostigon> AlanBell: i will see whatican do, when i try an install next week on my mums machine.
[20:58] <brobostigon> jenkins: no, not really, because you have nowhere to minimise to, so, why have minimise, if you have no tradional desktop to minimise to, and have different window manaegement to need minimise to change between windows, it just isnt needed really bt design.
[20:59] <jenkins> I see what you mean I am sure i will get use to it.
[21:00] <ali1234> reminds me of when they removed the close button on windows mobile
[21:00] <ali1234> "just leave all programs running all the time" they said
[21:01] <jenkins> and the buttons are on the right! May have to move them :)
[21:02] <brobostigon> jenkins: you wont need to get used to it not being there, as you will have no need for them.
[21:05] <jenkins> brobostigon: I guess I will use more work spaces with out a mimize button
[21:05] <brobostigon> jenkins: that is one intention, yes, workspaces do give better program manegement.
[21:06] <d3ngar> Just to let you guys know
[21:06] <BigRedS> can give better program management
[21:06] <d3ngar> I solved the routing problem with my VPN
[21:06] <BigRedS> I dislike this idea that we should have one or the other
[21:06] <BigRedS> d3ngar: oooh, what was it?
[21:06] <d3ngar> directhex gave me the right idea
[21:06] <d3ngar> But it needed to be sorted on the CLIENT side
[21:07] <d3ngar> added a route with "route add..."
[21:07] <d3ngar> I posted it on ubuntuforums: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1719992
[21:07] <brobostigon> BigRedS: all it tries to do, is improve what wr already have.
[21:08] <BigRedS> tbh, it feels about the same to me
[21:08] <jenkins> I do wonder why have a light theme with a dark tool bar?
[21:08] <d3ngar> Gotta reboot
[21:08] <d3ngar> So thanks all
[21:08] <BigRedS> I just keep seeing this thing about how it's designed to make people use workspaces instead of alt-tabbing
[21:08] <BigRedS> which seems weird
[21:09] <brobostigon> BigRedS: jenkins here inside ubuntu, i get dark blue window bars.
[21:09] <brobostigon> sorry, tab fail.
[21:10] <brobostigon> BigRedS: not makepeople useworkspaces, but make that a good way of program manegement again, which was awful in gnome2.
[21:11] <BigRedS> really? It works alright for me. Maybe I'm using them badly... :)
[21:11] <BigRedS> i've even got to the point where ctrl+alt+arrow seems fairly natural
[21:11] <brobostigon> BigRedS: i didnt like it, myself in gnome2, it workd, but i knew it could have been better,
[21:11] <BigRedS> mm, there's a few things that could be beter
[21:11] <BigRedS> better
[21:12] <brobostigon> agreed.
[21:12] <BigRedS> I think Unity still does the thing I dislike of not binding an app to its workspace
[21:12] <BigRedS> well,not by default. And I've not found a way to configure that
[21:12] <brobostigon> yes.
[21:12] <brobostigon> oh.
[21:12] <BigRedS> so you end up with firefox password dialog boxes hidden under windows on the wrong workspace
[21:13] <BigRedS> why on earth firefox wont accept input while one of those is up is beyond me
[21:13] <brobostigon> that happens ingnome2. but not in gnome3 that i can see.
[21:13] <silner> BigRedS, You mean it works too much like the Macos finder? That's what I don't like. It's the same thing I've never liked about the Mac
[21:14] <BigRedS> I don't remember finder that well :)
[21:14] <BigRedS> though I'm giving OSX another go when I get round to sticking OSX on this mac mini I've got
[21:14] <silner> It seems really similar to me
[21:15] <brobostigon> bsd/darwin, ie, i have tried, i havent tried all the apple  stuff ontop.
[21:15] <silner> I'm now in the awkward position of not liking Gnome 3 much and liking Unity less
[21:16] <BigRedS> I've had a really brief go on Gnome 3 and really disliked it. Unity just feels like mildly broken Gnome so far
[21:16] <brobostigon> if i had my way, i wouldrun haiku every day, and be done with it, because that has the best, i have ever tried,
[21:16] <BigRedS> my PCs are all running Squeeze, though, so I've always got some nice stability to go back to
[21:16] <silner> I liked Haiku in theory, but in practice it lacks too much I need
[21:16] <brobostigon> BigRedS: when i was running sid, iwas running gnome-shell from experimental.
[21:17] <brobostigon> silner: that is why, i cant use it, as much as i would like.
[21:17] <BigRedS> Ah, no, I run Debian Testing as a concession away from stable, rather than for a more stable Unstable.
[21:17] <BigRedS> I don't want new :)
[21:17] <brobostigon> BigRedS: :)
[21:19] <silner> BigRedS, I'm running Debian Stable at the moment, to get a way from all the new things I don't like. Do you know what happens if I change the repos to Testing updates - does it then act like a rolling release, or does it just mess everything up? I'd like to know before I do it :)
[21:19] <BigRedS> Testing is a rolling release
[21:19] <BigRedS> so change sources.list to wheezy, read the release notes, dist-upgrade
[21:20] <BigRedS> and then just keep running upgrades
[21:20] <brobostigon> BigRedS: so is unstable, thing move from sid/unstable to testing dont they.
[21:20] <silner> So changing from "Squeeze" to "testing in the updates section of the repos should do what I want?
[21:20] <BigRedS> no, change sources.list to testing :) else you'll end up on stable soon
[21:20] <BigRedS> silner: yeah. With a dist-upgrade, though. I don't think there was anything notable in the release notes, but I can't really remember
[21:21] <BigRedS> brobostigon: yeah, but they change an awful lot less in testing
[21:21] <brobostigon> BigRedS: very true,
[21:21] <silner> BigRedS, does dist-upgrade work the same as it does on Ubuntu?
[21:21] <BigRedS> silner: yeah, exactly the same apt
[21:21] <BigRedS> or aptitude, if you prefer
[21:22] <silner> It's just there are a few apps that are too old on Stable, only one or two so it's annoying but still
[21:22] <BigRedS> yeah, that's why I'm on testing
[21:22] <brobostigon> silner: backports?
[21:23] <BigRedS> you *can* use pinning or backports, but testing's so stable really that I don't see the point in stable on a workstation really
[21:23] <silner> I've never used that brobostigon how do you do it (being lazy to not search)
[21:23] <BigRedS> it's a repo to add, and suddenly new versions are available :)
[21:23] <silner> So I may as well move to testing
[21:23] <silner> Ah right
[21:24] <brobostigon> silner: for stable there is a backports repo, i cant rmemeber the string right now,
[21:25] <silner> I wouldn't mind using that if I can find it cos for a couple of apps it would be quicker than dist-upgrade
[21:25] <silner> I'll have atihnk
[21:25] <BigRedS> http://backports.debian.org/
[21:25] <BigRedS> I think you can just stick that in your sources.list
[21:25] <BigRedS> else, there'll be a howto on the site :)
[21:25] <brobostigon> ou can, yes.
[21:27] <silner> That looks really convenient. I don't even have to enable it permanently
[21:27] <silner> Debian does come up with clever systems
[21:28] <brobostigon> agreed.
[21:28] <BigRedS> yeah, I do maintain that it's pretty much the most user friendly OS there is
[21:28] <BigRedS> but I would, I suppose. It's my favrit :)
[21:30] <brobostigon> apt/dpkg is certainly the best package manegement i have experienced. that kind, is what we need in idea, on haiku.
[21:30] <BigRedS> yeah, I get quite frustrated when I need to use OSs that don't have it
[21:30] <brobostigon> and is planned for r1.
[21:57] <silner> Which is the main #Debian support channel BigRedS - is it here or on OFTC?
[21:58] <dutchie> oftc iirc
[21:58] <BigRedS> oftc is the official one
[21:59] <BigRedS> I idle on the one here, sometimes, but I've yet to have a question that's not a google away
[22:03] <silner> It's not so much that BigRedS as I like to soak up other people's questions :)
[22:03] <dwatkins> I also like to learn from what others ask.
[22:04] <silner> Yeah, that way you learnt the stuff you didn't know you didn't know :)
[22:08] <dwatkins> exactly, silner :)
[22:08] <dwatkins> I listen to the TWiT security podcast for the same reason
[22:09] <silner> dwatkins, I used to listen to that, but I've got a bit overloaded with Podcasts lately
[22:10] <silner> dwatkins, I still get that one Randal Scwartz does
[22:10]  * silner trying to remember name
[22:11] <b1ackcr0w> hey all!
[22:11] <dwatkins> brb, need to feed the hamster...
[22:16] <popey> silner: floss weekly
[22:16] <b1ackcr0w> I've been considering Chirality in the the Unity interface
[22:17] <silner> That's the one popey :)
[22:17] <willy1977> evening all
[22:18] <willy1977> anyone have any experience with ant+ (garmin sports devices in particular)
[22:19]  * willy1977 thinks that may be a very long shot...
[22:20] <b1ackcr0w> is it easy to shift the main app bar over to the right hand side of the screen in Unity
[22:20] <b1ackcr0w> ?
[22:21] <ali1234> no
[22:23] <b1ackcr0w> does anybody think that the main controls on a touch screen should be on the side of the the dominant chiral hand of 70 to 90% of the population?
[22:23] <ali1234> yes
[22:23] <b1ackcr0w> so how come they're on the other side?
[22:23] <ali1234> unfortunately only one guy's opinion counts
[22:23] <ali1234> and that guy isn't me or you
[22:23] <brobostigon> no, i amleft handed. :(
[22:24] <ali1234> unity isn't compatible with touchscreens anyway due to the dumb menu hiding stuff
[22:24] <gordonjcp> b1ackcr0w: I think the whole thing is terrible
[22:24] <b1ackcr0w> so, why can't they be moved so that 100% of people can have a comfortable interface?
[22:24] <gordonjcp> its behaviour is totally random
[22:25] <gordonjcp> you double-click a little square, maybe it'll launch an app and maybe it won't
[22:25] <gordonjcp> maybe it'll make some app windows whirl around the screen a bit
[22:25] <brobostigon> b1ackcr0w: it wouldnt be 100%, a significant amount of people are left handed.
[22:25] <dutchie> brobostigon: he means to make it configurable i think
[22:25] <b1ackcr0w> brobostigon: it would be if you had chiral choice
[22:26] <gordonjcp> I don't get how you're supposed to switch between apps in unity
[22:26] <b1ackcr0w> i've been using alt-tab
[22:26] <brobostigon> b1ackcr0w: i am all for choice, but nothave itset to onside, andno be changeable.
[22:27] <gordonjcp> b1ackcr0w: I tried that but it just brought up some little squares
[22:27] <ali1234> is natty working in virtualbox yet?
[22:27] <b1ackcr0w> oh lord. are the project team of the opinion they can change all these things?
[22:28] <b1ackcr0w> (ready for release date I mean)
[22:28] <BigRedS> ali1234: appears to be for me
[22:29] <BigRedS> b1ackcr0w: all what things? It's really quite usable, really
[22:29] <BigRedS> er, not that I'm actually using it generally, but from faffing in a vm I can't find any horrible brokenness
[22:29] <ali1234> the menu hiding is horribly broken if you use a touch screen
[22:30] <gordonjcp> BigRedS: I've still not found a way to turn off the drop shadows
[22:30] <ali1234> as is putting all the menus on the left hand side
[22:30] <gordonjcp> BigRedS: and I've not figured out how to get the taskbar back
[22:30] <b1ackcr0w> I've gone seperate /home and have a big touchscreen on my desk
[22:30] <gordonjcp> BigRedS: and ALT-F2 is broken
[22:30] <b1ackcr0w> it seemed natural for me to try it
[22:30] <ali1234> also it still doesn't work in virtualbox, it just restarts unity over and over
[22:31] <willy1977> natty on vm is working I thought that's what Alan did during the virtual jam?
[22:31] <ali1234> it's not working for me
[22:31] <BigRedS> ali1234: it's working for me...
[22:31] <willy1977> it drops down to a 2d interface?
[22:31] <b1ackcr0w> i think you can get it going by changin to a different vm bios
[22:31] <ali1234> no
[22:31] <BigRedS> ah, yeah, that's the bit that's working forme, the 2d interface
[22:31] <ali1234> it incorrectly detects that 3d is working and then restarts over and over when it fails
[22:32] <brobostigon> willy1977: he did, and dfaultedback to gnomeclassic, not unity.
[22:32] <willy1977> brobostigon: ahhhh... ok
[22:32] <ali1234> hang on there's some more updates
[22:38] <ali1234> ok, it's working now
[22:38] <ali1234> well, sort of
[22:40] <brobostigon> good night everyone, sleep well.
[22:41]  * Azelphur pokes
[22:50] <ali1234> lol
[22:50] <ali1234> the launcher thing is hiding
[22:50] <ali1234> it won't come out
[22:54] <bigcalm> Good evening peeps
[22:55] <Pendulum> hiya bigcalm
[22:55] <bigcalm> Hey Pendulum, did I miss much today?
[22:58] <Pendulum> bigcalm: I doubt it
[22:58] <ali1234> here's a puzzler for you: http://imagebin.org/146499
[22:59] <BigRedS> wanting to unmaximise firefox is such a rare use-case, though
[22:59] <BigRedS> :)
[23:03] <bigcalm> I just went to the top right to minimize chrome :(
[23:04] <ali1234> the new start menu thing is just awful
[23:04] <ali1234> btw what are these things called?
[23:06] <ali1234> how am i supposed to switch between applications when i have a window maximized?
[23:07] <ali1234> lol the window switcher is broken
[23:09] <bigcalm> popey: ping
[23:10] <ali1234> oh, it's cos i have one of the apps marked always on top
[23:10] <ali1234> ah, another problem: how do i access the menu you get when right clicking the window title if the window is maximized?
[23:10] <BigRedS> hah, I've started using that start menu in place of the normal Gnome set of three
[23:11] <ali1234> it's bad for the simple reason that i don't do any of the things it wants me to
[23:12] <BigRedS> Ah, I find it good 'cause it lets me have a narrower panel :)
[23:12] <ali1234> and you can't edit it
[23:12] <BigRedS> I lauch pretty much everything from alt+f2, so it's only there for just-in-case
[23:12] <ali1234> "view photos" "check email" "listen to music" - well, i don't use the default apps for any of those things
[23:12] <BigRedS> Oh, I assumed there'd be an editor for it in unity
[23:12] <ali1234> so pretty much the whole first page of it is jut a waste of my time
[23:13] <ali1234> then when you dig deeper it just gets worse
[23:13] <ali1234> every page has a MRU list
[23:13] <ali1234> which means the icons constantly move around
[23:13] <ali1234> so you can't learn where they are
[23:13] <ali1234> then you have a row for "installed" which is fine
[23:13] <BigRedS> Hm. I think I need to spend more time using it to get a proper opinion
[23:13] <BigRedS> but you are putting me off doing so somewhat :)
[23:13] <ali1234> except it only shows the first few things, most of which are not the thing i'm looking for, and then i have to expand it out
[23:14] <ali1234> if you use the menu editor to hide the things you don't want, it only seems to affect the classic gnome menu, not unity
[23:14] <ali1234> so if i don't want to see eg "remote desktop viewer" on unity menu, i have to uninstall it completely i guess
[23:14] <BigRedS> that's a bit dumb
[23:15] <ali1234> then there's the "apps available for download" bit
[23:15] <BigRedS> is this all in bugs already?
[23:16] <ali1234> it's like, rather than show me what i have installed and therefore probably want to use, it's going to show me a bunch of stuff i have chosen not to install, and therefore probably do not want to use
[23:16] <ali1234> these aren't bugs, these are someone's idea of features
[23:17] <BigRedS> yeah, it's that assumption that you're not intelligent enough to realise you can install stuff and need constantly reminding of it
[23:17] <BigRedS> It's like the "Your system's too free. Have a binary blob graphics driver" popups you've had for a while
[23:18] <ali1234> not only that but if i want one of those programs and install it, it just excacerbates the problem of NOT showing installed programs in lieu of uninstalled ones, since there's always going to be more stuff that i've not installed
[23:18] <ali1234> i might see "amazing app x" in that bit, install it, then it will disappear into the "click here to show 7364 more apps" part
[23:19] <ali1234> yeah i don't mind that graphics driver popup because i do actually use that driver
[23:19] <ali1234> i only see it once per install... if there was a popup for every single thing that i haven't installed (which is what this effectively is) then ... that's different
[23:20] <BigRedS> yeah, maybe it's just as well that I've got into the habit of not using the menus
[23:20] <ali1234> if these apps are so great why aren't they installed by default over the stuff that's buried in the depths of the "click here for more" part
[23:23] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Alan Bell] Jamming in the UK - http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/03/jamming-in-the-uk/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=jamming-in-the-uk
[23:47] <bigcalm> Sending work emails at 11.45pm, I must be mad
[23:48] <Pendulum> bigcalm: can it not wait until the morning?
[23:48] <BigRedS> or fishing for overtime
[23:49] <bigcalm> Pendulum: unless I get up at 7am (I struggle to get up for 9am). It's sent to my boss for him to convert into a quote for a client. Boss is on the train 1st thing tomorrow morning and he needs it for then. I'm a tad late in getting this email done :)
[23:50] <bigcalm> BigRedS: I don't get paid for overtime, I really should stop working outside of 9-6 mon-fri
[23:51] <bigcalm> On the laptop in bed with Hayley curled up beside me. Might be time to shut down and get some shut-eye
[23:52] <bigcalm> Good night kids :)


[02:41] <LPCIBot> Yippie, build fixed!
[02:41] <LPCIBot> Project db-devel build #649: FIXED in 5 hr 45 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/db-devel/649/
[21:16] <lifeless> moin
[21:16] <nigelb> moinmoin


[00:00] <Sarvatt> yay, working now :)
[00:21] <Sarvatt> ok origin/ubuntu builds fine now on i386, other arches are still waiting for the libxfont rebuilds
[00:58] <Sarvatt> mind if I make mesa stop building mach64 in git? theres no point to it, needs external drm modules that don't even exist in libdrm git anymore
[00:59] <Sarvatt> just wasting livecd space :D
[01:02] <tjaalton> sure
[01:19] <Sarvatt> RAOF: back from UDS yet? xserver-xorg-video-nouveau needs some lovin pretty badly :)
[01:27] <bryceh> he's probably recovering from jetlag
[01:29] <Sarvatt> bryceh: did you get all my messages about UDS? it looked like you didn't get the first on monday since you asked a few days later and i'm not sure you got the second since you signed off after
[01:44] <bryceh> Sarvatt, no my irc has been real spotty this past week
[01:44] <Sarvatt> anyone have a description of what exactly libkms is so I can add it to the new package description? :)
[01:46] <tjaalton> has something to do with vmwgfx
[01:49] <tjaalton> kms abstraction library or such
[01:54] <bryceh> http://www.pagetable.com/?p=324
[01:55] <bryceh>  ^ new logo for -intel?
[02:41] <Sarvatt> fitting with how broken it's been this week :)
[02:52] <Sarvatt> going to attempt to fix this accidental epoch in xorg-edgers libdrm..
[02:52] <Sarvatt> things may be broken for a bit :)
[02:53] <Sarvatt> i'll have to post everywhere telling people to downgrade too, fun stuff
[02:54] <Sarvatt> worried about leaving it since it's screwing with the symbol versioning, maybe I should just leave it..
[03:55] <Sarvatt> phew looks like xserver-xorg-video-intel is the only thing screwed up by the bumped epoch libdrm, i rebuilt everything i uploaded since the 12th though just incase
[03:56] <Sarvatt> scrapped the libkms idea for now, it requires libdrm to build... lol
[04:25] <Sarvatt> weird, libgl1-mesa-dri-gallium pulls in oprofile
[04:26] <Sarvatt>   libgl1-mesa-dri-gallium libllvm2.7 libopagent1 llvm llvm-dev oprofile
[04:27] <Sarvatt> ah llvm-dev depends on it..
[04:53] <Sarvatt> xorg-server from origin/ubuntu currently brings in nvidia-current...  :D
[04:55] <Sarvatt> The following NEW packages will be installed:
[04:55] <Sarvatt>   dkms nvidia-current nvidia-settings xserver-xorg-video-radeonhd
[04:55] <Sarvatt> and xserver-xorg-core held is back
[04:55] <Sarvatt> is held back rather
[05:25] <Bernardo> good morning
[08:46] <tjaalton> Sarvatt: how's that possible?
[13:23] <oc13> hi, i am using an old tablet (compac tc1000) with 10.04 installed.
[13:23] <oc13> now i want to get the touchscreen working:
[13:24] <oc13> installed fpit. i works but i cannot configure it.
[13:25] <oc13> does anyone know what values for maxx and maxy needed to be set in xorg.conf?
[15:25] <Sarvatt> oc13: man fpit should give you some default values to play with, since you said it installed and worked i'm guessing you're on karmic or older?
[15:26] <Sarvatt> i uploaded an fpit that works with lucid to the x-updates ppa since the one in lucid/debian doesn't work with xserver 1.7, but some people are having configuration problems with it still
[15:38] <Sarvatt> wow thats a change, I have to install gallium dri to use GL with xserver master, mesa classic i915 just segfaults all over the place
[15:40] <Sarvatt> http://pastebin.com/kNN5MVL0
[16:49] <Sarvatt> thats odd, SIS doesn't compile against xserver master here because it needs mibank.h thats been removed, but it compiles fine on tinderbox?
[16:51] <jcristau> tinderbox may have old headers still around
[16:57] <Sarvatt> had to disable udeb building for xserver master until i have time to look into it, fails like this http://launchpadlibrarian.net/48590426/buildlog_ubuntu-maverick-i386.xorg-server_2:<IP_ADDRESS>%2Bgit20100517.345eb171-0ubuntu0sarvatt_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[17:02] <Sarvatt> i keep getting into weird situations I can't figure out with the new xserver abi stuff since <IP_ADDRESS>1, the breaks make it odd. like tslib needed to be updated in the archive before i could even install xserver-xorg-core even though i didnt have it installed
[17:03] <Sarvatt> we have an older version in the archive than the breaks: in xserver
[17:05] <jcristau> Sarvatt: you only get that in the udeb build?
[17:06] <Sarvatt> yeah
[17:06] <Sarvatt> disabled udeb works fine
[17:06] <Sarvatt> builds fine rather
[17:22] <jcristau> Sarvatt: http://people.freedesktop.org/~jcristau/0001-Fix-build-without-XACE.patch
[17:26] <Sarvatt> oh nice! will add that and rebuild in a minute when I test this SIS change out to be sure it works. thanks for that jcristau, sorry to bug you with problems all the time! I'm not pointing them out asking for them to be fixed, just trying to get the issues I run across out there :)
[17:27] <jcristau> yeah.  i should work instead.  but instead i jump on the chance to not work ;)
[17:28] <jcristau> anyway, sent this one to the list
[17:28] <Sarvatt> should I just drop the mibank.h header completely or conditionalize it for #if XORG_VERSION_CURRENT >= XORG_VERSION_NUMERIC(1,8,99,0,0) ya think?
[17:28] <Sarvatt> it builds fine without the header against <IP_ADDRESS> at least
[17:28] <Sarvatt> oh whoops I meant <=
[17:29] <jcristau> i couldn't find anything in the driver that needed that header
[17:29] <jcristau> so i'd say drop it
[17:49] <Sarvatt> http://pastebin.com/RNM0ZPqC works, phew.. logs sure are ugly these days though
[17:50]  * Sarvatt needs to get a MTA set up for git one of these days
[17:51] <Sarvatt> building the udeb with your patch now
[17:52] <jcristau> ugly because of the timestamping you mean?
[17:54] <Sarvatt> yeah
[17:54] <Sarvatt> breaks a lot of the driver messages
[17:59] <Sarvatt> xserver with your patch is building here btw if you're interested - https://edge.launchpad.net/~sarvatt/+archive/xorg-testing/+build/1742884
[18:00] <Sarvatt> i'll reply on xorg-devel with a tested-by and the details if it works
[18:01] <jcristau> cool :)
[18:02] <jcristau> 2 concurrent configure runs makes understanding what's happening quite hard..
[18:03] <Sarvatt> yeah, for sure
[18:04] <Sarvatt> it builds quite a deal faster than 1.7.x though even with the extra udeb build since theres no tests
[18:05] <jcristau> oh you disabled the tests?
[18:05] <jcristau> i guess it's not very useful to run them for the ppa
[18:05] <Sarvatt> ../../dix/gc.c: In function 'ChangeGC':
[18:05] <Sarvatt> ../../dix/gc.c:152: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
[18:05] <Sarvatt> ../../dix/gc.c: In function 'ChangeGCXIDs':
[18:05] <Sarvatt> ../../dix/gc.c:439: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
[18:06] <jcristau> same deal i guess..
[18:06] <Sarvatt> only in udeb build
[18:06] <Sarvatt> oh the tests still run? i thought they didn't since it was so fast, guess i didnt look hard enough
[18:06] <Sarvatt> didnt explicitly disable them
[18:07] <jcristau> the main build has xace enabled
[18:17] <Sarvatt> whoops, sorry to spam your mail there, replied to just you there and resent it :)
[18:21] <jcristau> ok now i've actually tested the build...
[18:43] <chrisccoulson> RAOF - could you ping me when you're available? i would like to discuss bug 546578 with you at some point
[18:44] <Sarvatt> thats related to the fade problem isn't it? :(
[18:45] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt, yes. i don't know if there are multiple issues or not, but there's definately a race in lucid thats contributing to some peoples issues
[18:45] <chrisccoulson> if the VT switches before the fade is finished, then the gamma doesn't get reset
[18:45] <Sarvatt> its happening on other distros too and not limited to ati
[18:46] <chrisccoulson> so, i was going to disable fade-on-lock in gnome-screensaver for now (it will still fade on idle though)
[18:46] <Sarvatt> i've talked to people on arch and gentoo using intel nouveau and ati having the same problem and disabling fade fixed it
[18:46] <chrisccoulson> but i wanted to discuss with RAOF first. i'm not sure if you have an opinion too though
[18:46] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'm leaning towards switching off fading for now
[18:47] <chrisccoulson> it's a 1 liner in gnome-screensaver
[18:47] <Sarvatt> have you checked other distros patches by any chance?
[18:47] <chrisccoulson> not yet
[18:47] <chrisccoulson> but i imagine they will probably be pretty similar
[18:48] <chrisccoulson> i see one reporter already posted a patch to one of the bug reports, but i'm not going to do it like that, as that globally disables fade
[18:48] <chrisccoulson> i still want fading to work on idle ;)
[18:50] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt - btw, the nvidia binary driver doesn't seem to exhibit the issue. i can still use xgamma to control the gamma on X servers that aren't on the active VT
[18:50] <chrisccoulson> although that probably doesn't help much
[18:51] <Sarvatt> binary drvier uses vidmode gamma fading though not xrandr ramps
[18:51] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt - yeah, that's also what xgamma is doing though
[18:51] <chrisccoulson> both methods fail in lucid
[18:55] <Sarvatt> chrisccoulson: do you think this is related? I dont understand the patch completely - http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-xorg/xserver/xorg-server.git;a=blob;f=debian/patches/121_only_switch_vt_when_active.diff;h=e35467bf84a2f8327bc907246c92b26b42da19a6;hb=refs/heads/ubuntu
[18:56] <Sarvatt> i can't find any context on why we have that patch, was added *years* ago
[18:57] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt, i'm not too sure really. i don't understand the patch completely either
[19:04] <Sarvatt> making it bug me even more, arch carries that patch too
[19:07] <ricotz> Sarvatt, hi, what do you think about copying the kernel to edgers? https://edge.launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/unstable/+sourcepub/1137152/+listing-archive-extra
[19:08] <Sarvatt> i kind of would prefer to wait a few hours and just use the ones straight from maverick if we're not changing any options but go ahead
[19:09] <Sarvatt> ricotz: btw did you see the notice at the top of the xorg-edgers ppa page? i screwed up and added an epoch to libdrm for a few days and people have to manually downgrade back or it wont update :(
[19:10] <Sarvatt> keeping the epoch would suck more than that pain IMO so i got rid of it, it screwed up the symbols and stuff
[19:10] <Sarvatt> ia32-libs might be screwed up by that :(
[19:10] <Sarvatt> not sure if the update script checks for a newer version and grabs that since the newer one will be older
[19:10] <ricotz> oh, didnt noticed is, let me look
[19:12] <Sarvatt> i can upload a new ia32-libs source package, the bandwidth isnt an issue here (got 20Mbps up and no quota)
[19:12] <Sarvatt> not sure how though, need to look at it
[19:12] <ricotz> Sarvatt, i have updated the ia32-libs just now
[19:12] <ricotz> should be fine
[19:12] <Sarvatt> thanks ricotz, sorry about all the trouble
[19:13] <Sarvatt> i'm working on xserver master for maverick :D
[19:13] <ricotz> sounds like trouble ;-)
[19:13] <Sarvatt> but i'm going to hold off on it for at least a month or two, learned my lesson following master too closely in lucid
[19:15] <Sarvatt> people actually expect xorg-edgers to work :)
[19:16] <Sarvatt> chrisccoulson: you know, i should boot up a fedora 13 livecd and see if test-fade has the same problem there
[19:16] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt - could do. remember though that test-fade has the additional issue where the buffer if not flushed properly, and the last SetCrtcGamma command never gets to the server
[19:18] <Sarvatt> theres no way thats related to this problem?
[19:18] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt - i'm fairly sure it's unrelated. people could still recreate it even with the fix for that in
[19:18] <Sarvatt> seems like it could be to me but i dont understand it that well, people saying it happens when you switch users in quick succession
[19:18] <Sarvatt> ah, test-fade is fixed in ubuntu?
[19:19] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt - not yet. i uploaded a test build to my PPA a while ago, but it's not there any more
[19:19] <Sarvatt> didn't know ya fixed that, i haven't looked since i dont even use gnome-screensaver and just reported the bug to condense a bunch of duplicates
[19:19] <Sarvatt> ahh ok
[19:49] <Sarvatt> gnome-screensaver in karmic didn't have xrandr fade right? i know it was upstreamed in november but not sure if it was added in -backports or something
[19:49] <Sarvatt> or a point release later
[20:42] <chrisccoulson> Sarvatt, yeah, xrandr fade was only introduced in lucid
[20:47] <bryceh> chrisccoulson, RAOF usually comes on in about +2 hrs
[20:47] <chrisccoulson> bryceh, thanks
[20:48] <bryceh> chrisccoulson, maybe drop him an email in the meanwhile
[23:03] <Sarvatt> sheesh, put off setting up git send-email for so long and it was so easy :D
[23:04] <Sarvatt> ricotz: gconf was updated so your mutter ppa works again \o/


[03:41] <mup> PR snapd#13303 opened: o/snapshotstate: Discard namespace after snap restore <Created by yukariatlas> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13303>
[04:41] <mup> PR snapd#13304 opened: interfaces/desktop: allow access to Mutter IdleMonitor idle time <Created by alexmurray> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13304>
[08:58] <mup> PR snapd#13305 opened: consistently stop auto-import of assertions during install modes (install, factory-reset) <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13305>
[08:59] <mup> PR snapcraft#4403 opened: KDE: new content pack update <Created by ScarlettGatelyMoore> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/4403>
[09:08] <mup> PR snapd#13300 closed: tests/connected-after-reboot-revert: modify installed kernel <Run nested> <Run Nested -auto-> <Created by alfonsosanchezbeato> <Merged by alfonsosanchezbeato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13300>
[09:28] <mup> PR snapd#13306 opened: spread.yaml: set default kernel channel to beta <Run nested> <Created by alfonsosanchezbeato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13306>
[20:25] <mup> PR snapd#13307 opened: packaging: update squashfuse to 0.5.0 <Created by pachulo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13307>


[17:48] <mang0> Heyo all, my first visit here :)
[17:48] <iainfarrell> hello :)
[17:48] <iainfarrell> I'm afraid it's a bit quiet in here these days
[17:48] <iainfarrell> you might want to try #ubuntu-design
[17:48] <iainfarrell> there's a _bit_ more chatter