[12:47] <graham_100> i have no clue how to use some parts of ubuntu  can somebody help me??
[12:47] <graham_100> please
[12:47] <andrew> graham_100: #ubuntu
[12:48] <graham_100> andrew been in there not helping me
[12:48] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: Perhaps - what parts?  (#ubuntu is good for general stuff usually, but depending what you need maybe we can take it here)
[12:48] <graham_100> tonyyarusso i need to know how to use a second hard drive mainly on ubuntu
[12:49] <graham_100> installed formatted and partitioned but i cant do anything with it
[12:49] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: Is it mounted?
[12:49] <graham_100> it says so
[12:49] <tonyyarusso> Describe what your process is and what happens.
[12:49] <graham_100> i just checked and it is mounted definately
[12:50] <graham_100> i open the drive by double click
[12:50] <graham_100> and once in i can't creat save or do anything with it
[12:50] <graham_100> which i find strange
[12:50] <graham_100> it is partitioned as ext2
[12:51] <tonyyarusso> Okay, my first guess is it's a permissions issue.
[12:51] <tonyyarusso> It sounds like you don't have write permissions.
[12:51] <graham_100> oh is that fixable?
[12:51] <tonyyarusso> Definitely.
[12:51] <tonyyarusso> As long as we can make sure that's what's going on.
[12:51] <graham_100> ok how do i do that??
[12:51] <tonyyarusso> We can check in the GUI, but frankly it's easier on a command line - is that okay?
[12:51] <graham_100> i know some basics not that though lol
[12:52] <graham_100> i can do terminal
[12:52] <tonyyarusso> cool
[12:52] <tonyyarusso> 'ls -l /media/newdrive' , or whatever the path to the drive is.
[12:52] <graham_100> is the path to drive the hdb1??
[12:54] <tonyyarusso> Whereever it's mounted.
[12:54] <tonyyarusso> hdb1 is the device, you need the mounted path.
[12:55] <graham_100> tells me ls invalid option
[12:55] <tonyyarusso> It's l and in Luxemburg in both cases, by the way, not a one.
[12:56] <graham_100> mounted path would be computer:///??
[12:56] <graham_100> so hdbl??
[12:56] <graham_100> 37.3 GB Volume: hdb1 that is what it says it is
[12:57] <graham_100> sorry if i sound so thick
[12:58] <tonyyarusso> Did you mount it using a mount command, gui, or fstab?
[12:59] <graham_100> i think i did it with the right click optiion
[12:59] <graham_100> `right click`  `mount device`
[01:00] <tonyyarusso> Ah, okay.
[01:01] <tonyyarusso> Oh!
[01:01] <tonyyarusso> 'cat /etc/mtab'
[01:01] <tonyyarusso> I think that will tell us something useful.
[01:02] <graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ cat /etc/mtab
[01:02] <graham_100> /dev/hda1 / ext3 rw,errors=remount-ro 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> proc /proc proc rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> /sys /sys sysfs rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> varrun /var/run tmpfs rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> varlock /var/lock tmpfs rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> procbususb /proc/bus/usb usbfs rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> udev /dev tmpfs rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> devpts /dev/pts devpts rw,gid=5,mode=620 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> devshm /dev/shm tmpfs rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> lrm /lib/modules/2.6.15-27-386/volatile tmpfs rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> /dev/hdb1 /media/hdb1 ext2 rw 0 0
[01:02] <graham_100> sorry if i pasted to much
[01:03] <graham_100> it's that bit on the last line about second drive yes??
[01:03] <tonyyarusso> Correct.
[01:03] <tonyyarusso> So, 'ls -l /media/hdb1'
[01:04] <graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ ls -l /media/hdb1
[01:04] <graham_100> total 48
[01:04] <graham_100> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 49152 2006-11-28 01:12 lost+found
[01:04] <graham_100> what is that telling me ?
[01:04] <graham_100> it has a file in there called lost+found
[01:05] <cafuego_> no, that's a directory
[01:06] <cafuego_> it should be empty
[01:06] <graham_100> lost+found is empty
[01:06] <tonyyarusso> Good
[01:07] <tonyyarusso> Oh hey, we actually need the parent of that don't we?
[01:07] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: 'ls -l /media'
[01:07] <tonyyarusso> My bad
[01:07] <maniacmusician> well it's safe to assume from that output that root owns the entire drive
[01:07] <cafuego_> lost+found is where damaged files are dumped by fsck, if the filesystem is damaged by an unclean unmount.
[01:07] <maniacmusician> because graham hasn't made any changes there yet
[01:07] <maniacmusician> so he needs to make himself the owner of /media/hdb1
[01:08] <graham_100> well the computer name is my g/f name  "kelly"
[01:08] <tonyyarusso> maniacmusician: Not necessarily the owner - just have at least +w set
[01:09] <maniacmusician> tonyyarusso: yeah true. I guess i'm just in the habit of doing that with my drives :)
[01:09] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: If I remember my mount syntax (debatable) you need to add 'user' to the "options" portion.
[01:09] <graham_100> oooh how do we do that bit?
[01:09] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: If you just want a one-time fix, you can use sudo with chown or chmod (your choice)
[01:09] <graham_100> is that straight forward way then?
[01:10] <maniacmusician> or if you prefer gui, you can do a "gksudo nautilus" and use nautilus to modify the permissions
[01:10] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: 'gksu gedit /etc/fstab'.  Find the line in there for this drive, and note the column headings - lloking for option.
[01:10] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: Change it from just defaults to defaults,user
[01:10] <tonyyarusso> (SOmeone correct me if I'm wrong)
[01:11] <maniacmusician> sounds okay.
[01:11] <tonyyarusso> I know there's also a "users" option, which I get confused with "user"
[01:11] <graham_100> i have fstab open now
[01:11] <tonyyarusso> good
[01:11] <tonyyarusso> See a line for this drive?
[01:12] <maniacmusician> Common for  all  types
[01:12] <graham_100> would that be it?
[01:12] <maniacmusician>        of  file  system  are  the options noauto (do not mount when "mount -a" is given, e.g., at boot time), user (allow a user to mount), and owner (allow device
[01:12] <maniacmusician>        owner to mount)
[01:13] <maniacmusician> *oops*
[01:13] <graham_100> # /etc/fstab: static file system information.
[01:13] <graham_100> #
[01:13] <graham_100> # <file system> <mount point>   <type>  <options>       <dump>  <pass>
[01:13] <graham_100> proc            /proc           proc    defaults        0       0
[01:13] <graham_100> /dev/hda1       /               ext3    defaults,errors=remount-ro 0       1
[01:13] <graham_100> /dev/hdb1       /media/hdb1     ext2    defaults        0       2
[01:13] <graham_100> /dev/hda5       none            swap    sw              0       0
[01:13] <graham_100> /dev/hdc        /media/cdrom0   udf,iso9660 user,noauto     0       0
[01:13] <graham_100> is all that is there
[01:13] <tonyyarusso> Great
[01:13] <graham_100> is that good or bad??
[01:13] <tonyyarusso> /dev/hdb1       /media/hdb1     ext2    defaults        0       2 is the line in question
[01:14] <tonyyarusso> Good
[01:14] <graham_100> right i see that
[01:14] <tonyyarusso> Just make "defaults" "defaults,user"
[01:14] <tonyyarusso> Save, and exit
[01:14] <graham_100> now i have to change it right??
[01:14] <tonyyarusso> yep
[01:14] <graham_100> changed how do i save it?
[01:14] <tonyyarusso> Then unmount and remount the drive for the new settings to take effect, and you should be all set.
[01:15] <tonyyarusso> Did you open in gedit?
[01:15] <tonyyarusso> Big ol' save button.
[01:15] <tonyyarusso> In nano, Ctrl-O
[01:15] <graham_100> yeah i guess
[01:15] <graham_100> *fstab (/etc) - gedit is the header on window
[01:16] <tonyyarusso> righto
[01:16] <graham_100> so just ctrl-o now to save??
[01:16] <graham_100> :) think i am learning
[01:17] <tonyyarusso> That was for a different editor.
[01:17] <mdz> graham_100: cilck the icon with the word 'save' under it
[01:17] <mdz> click, even
[01:17] <tonyyarusso> Ctrl-S, or the big save button
[01:17] <graham_100> got it :)
[01:18] <graham_100> now unmount    remount to see if it works??
[01:18] <maniacmusician> a simple sudo mount -a will do the job
[01:18] <graham_100> but i just tried that and because it's me unable to unmount the drive lol
[01:19] <maniacmusician> "sudo mount -a"
[01:19] <graham_100> sudo mount -a didn't appear to do anything let me just check
[01:20] <maniacmusician> what it does is it remounts all the drives, and applies all changes made in the /etc/fstab file
[01:20] <maniacmusician> so it just applied the permission changes
[01:20] <maniacmusician> you should be able to write to the drive now
[01:20] <graham_100> nope made no difference how do i unmount now???
[01:20] <graham_100> for some reason i can't get it to do these things lol
[01:21] <graham_100> umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1
[01:21] <tonyyarusso> Use sudo
[01:21] <graham_100> that is what it tells me
[01:21] <maniacmusician> sudo umount
[01:21] <maniacmusician> tonyyarusso: also, he was using unmount instead of umount
[01:21] <maniacmusician> err wait.
[01:21] <maniacmusician> he was using nautilus lol
[01:21] <tonyyarusso> That would do it too
[01:21] <graham_100> now sudo -a mount to remount?
[01:22] <tonyyarusso> sudo mount -a
[01:23] <graham_100> aargh didn't work ! how do you guys not get stressed with this??
[01:23] <graham_100> :) this is problem with using windows 15 years then going to linux i guess
[01:24] <graham_100> so where do i begin now?
[01:24] <maniacmusician> I'm guessing user was just the wrong option.
[01:24] <maniacmusician> what I would do (because it's easiest for me) is make yourself the owner of the whole drive.
[01:24] <graham_100> could i have done something wrong with the partition and format?
[01:25] <graham_100> how do i do that with the owner ??
[01:25] <maniacmusician> I'm not familiar with the command line way to do it
[01:26] <tonyyarusso> sudo chown graham:graham, if graham is your user name
[01:26] <tonyyarusso> Actually, make it chown -R
[01:26] <maniacmusician> and add the location of the drive, too
[01:26] <tonyyarusso> sudo chown -R graham:graham /media/hdb1
[01:26] <maniacmusician> and actually, the username is kelly
[01:26] <tonyyarusso> right
[01:27] <maniacmusician> so sudo chown -R kelly:kelly /media/hdb1
[01:27] <graham_100> ok so kelly being the user name of pc      sudo chown -R kelly:kelly/media/hdb1??
[01:27] <Corbeaux> uu need a space there somewhere
[01:27] <maniacmusician> make sure you leave a space between kelly and the path to the file
[01:28] <maniacmusician> path to the drive*
[01:29] <graham_100> file owner is still root
[01:29] <graham_100> can't seem to do this
[01:29] <graham_100> isn't there another way to do this?
[01:29] <tonyyarusso> Pastebin your terminal
[01:29] <Corbeaux> is the extra drive empty?
[01:30] <graham_100> the extra drive is empty but formatted
[01:30] <Corbeaux> the chown command should have worked
[01:30] <graham_100> umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1
[01:30] <tonyyarusso> That's what sudo is for
[01:30] <Corbeaux> you need to put sudo in front your command to do it as root
[01:31] <graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ sudo chown -R kelly /media/hdb1
[01:31] <graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1umount: only root can unmount /dev/hdb1 from /media/hdb1
[01:31] <Corbeaux> kinda like in windows where it asks you for administrator password to do some things, in linux use sudo
[01:31] <graham_100> that is my terminal view at the moment
[01:32] <maniacmusician> why do you have that pasted into the terminal?
[01:32] <Corbeaux> do this: cat /etc/fstab
[01:32] <Corbeaux> paste the results here
[01:32] <maniacmusician> Corbeaux: I think he just did the chown command wrong
[01:32] <tonyyarusso> And it really should be kelly:kelly, not just one kelly
[01:33] <graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ cat /etc/fstab
[01:33] <graham_100> # /etc/fstab: static file system information.
[01:33] <graham_100> #
[01:33] <graham_100> # <file system> <mount point>   <type>  <options>       <dump>  <pass>
[01:33] <graham_100> proc            /proc           proc    defaults        0       0
[01:33] <graham_100> /dev/hda1       /               ext3    defaults,errors=remount-ro 0       1
[01:33] <graham_100> /dev/hdb1       /media/hdb1     ext2    defaults,user        0       2
[01:33] <graham_100> /dev/hda5       none            swap    sw              0       0
[01:33] <graham_100> /dev/hdc        /media/cdrom0   udf,iso9660 user,noauto     0       0
[01:33] <graham_100> i just spotted i have an error on main drive with the o/s on it
[01:34] <tonyyarusso> What's that?
[01:36] <maniacmusician> alright, i'm outta here. graham_100: the command is "sudo chown -R kelly:kelly /media/hdb1" just copy and paste it into the terminal. ciao, everyone
[01:37] <tonyyarusso> By maniacmusician
[01:37] <tonyyarusso> *bye
[01:37] <Corbeaux> l8
[01:37] <graham_100> *bye*
[01:37] <graham_100> that didn't do anything that line of command just then
[01:37] <Corbeaux> you copied and pasted it?
[01:38] <Corbeaux> sudo chown -R kelly:kelly /media/hdb1
[01:39] <tonyyarusso> Oh!
[01:39] <Corbeaux> then do : ls -l /media/hdb*
[01:39] <tonyyarusso> graham_100: "didn't do anything" - in Linux, no output means it works.  It assumes it will work, and tells you if it doesn't, unlike Windows, which assumes it will fail and gets all excited when it can do something.
[01:40] <Corbeaux> lol
[01:41] <Corbeaux> is xgl installed as the default desktop in the new ubuntu?
[01:41] <kh> 1
[01:41] <tonyyarusso> Corbeaux: aiglx, not xgl - still under discussion
[01:41] <tonyyarusso> kh: 2
[01:42] <Corbeaux> k
[01:43] <Corbeaux> hey graham
[01:43] <graham_100> it worked :)
[01:43] <Corbeaux> ls -l /media/hdb*
[01:43] <Corbeaux> ah ok
[01:43] <graham_100> thankyou all whom helped with that problem
[01:43] <Corbeaux> cool :)
[01:43] <tonyyarusso> awesome
[01:46] <graham_100> anyone know anything on wireless cards?
[01:47] <graham_100> i know i need ndiswrapper and thats as far as i have been
[01:48] <graham_100> *try to write down what i learn*
[01:48] <graham_100> :)
[01:49] <Corbeaux> sorry, never used wireless. Don't even have ubuntu installed, just here lurking for the first time since someone said it was cool somewhere
[01:49] <tonyyarusso> I can't help you with ndiswrapper, but I can recommend creating a "stuff I learned" folder and copying all of these sorts of conversations into it.
[01:49] <tonyyarusso> Corbeaux: haha!
[01:49] <tonyyarusso> That amuses me for some reason
[01:49] <Corbeaux> it was on a LUG list :p
[01:52] <Corbeaux> will ubuntu's gui run ok in a virtual machine? I saw a video of the XGL desktop on youtube and got renewed interest in it. Which is in itself a paradox since initially, i hated it due to it's lack of a fullscreen text mode
[01:52] <graham_100> can you get belkin cards to work on ubuntu??  mine is recognised but says "belkin unknown 700e"
[01:53] <maniacmusician> graham_100:  i have some experience with ndiswrapper. it's a pain in the ass though.
[01:53] <maniacmusician> the first thing I'd recommend is using these two pages http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/index.php/Installation and http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/index.php/List  as they helped me a lot. But a new user like you may find himself in over his head with that
[01:54] <graham_100> i think that may be the case
[01:55] <maniacmusician> heh I guess I could walk you through it. are you trying to install it right now?
[01:55] <graham_100> i have used ndiswrapper before but it caused problems on startup, just got stuck at configuring hardware and i had to re-install
[01:55] <graham_100> i am wanting to get it working asap yeah :)
[01:57] <maniacmusician> well first you start with the command "lspci". Find the line that your card is on, and copy&paste the number in front of it.
[01:58] <graham_100> 0000:00:0b.0 Network controller: RaLink: Unknown device 0301
[01:58] <graham_100> i think that is it?
[02:00] <maniacmusician> you said the card was belkin...that looks like the manufacturer is RaLink
[02:00] <maniacmusician> Just post the entire output.
[02:01] <graham_100> it is a belkin wireless g desktop f5d7000uk ver 6000uk
[02:01] <Corbeaux> lspci |grep elkin
[02:01] <graham_100> kelly@kelly-desktop:~$ lspci
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:00.0 Host bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  730 Host (rev 02)
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:00.1 IDE interface: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  5513 [IDE]  (rev d0)0000:00:01.0 ISA bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  SiS85C503/5513 (LPC Bridge)
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:01.1 Ethernet controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  SiS900 PCI Fast Ethernet (rev 82)
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:01.2 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  USB 1.0 Controller (rev 07)
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:01.3 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  USB 1.0 Controller (rev 07)
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:01.4 Multimedia audio controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  SiS PCI Audio Accelerator (rev 02)
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:02.0 PCI bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  Virtual PCI-to-PCI bridge (AGP)
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:00:0b.0 Network controller: RaLink: Unknown device 0301
[02:01] <graham_100> 0000:01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS]  630/730 PCI/AGP VGA Display Adapter (rev 31)
[02:01] <Corbeaux> belkin card with ralink chipset?
[02:02] <maniacmusician> must be
[02:02] <graham_100> that is what i am thinking
[02:02] <graham_100> i did something earlier and is said belkin unknown device 700e
[02:02] <maniacmusician> graham_100:  now do a "lspci -n". copy and paste the line with "0000:00:0b.0" in front of it
[02:04] <graham_100> 0000:00:0b.0 0280: 1814:0301
[02:05] <graham_100> does that say what chipset it has?
[02:06] <maniacmusician> Card: Linksys #[WMP54G v4.1] , 54mbps -- [link here|List#WMP54G v4.1] , Chipset: Ralink RT61
[02:06] <maniacmusician> the chipset part is all that matters.
[02:07] <graham_100> so i have a lynksys card in principle?
[02:07] <maniacmusician> you have a Ralink chipset. Belkin just buys them from RaLink and uses them in its cards
[02:08] <maniacmusician> it also uses broadcom chipsets a lot.
[02:08] <graham_100> ah i see so i should be able to get it to work then on this basis?
[02:08] <maniacmusician> well I'm trying to find the driver. It says that it's provided on the RaLink website.
[02:08] <Corbeaux> just a note graham, most hardware is created by just a few manufacturers then rebranded to hell and back by others so you will probably see this again with a belkin card that somehow gets id'ed as linksys. The chipset is all that matters and in this case, it seems to be ralink
[02:09] <graham_100> so i need to get ndiswrapper again and install apropriate ralink driver??
[02:11] <graham_100> if i use the ralink rt61 driver will it work?
[02:11] <maniacmusician> yes, you have to have ndiswrapper installed. "sudo aptitude install ndiswrapper-utils"
[02:11] <maniacmusician> yes it should. Trying to find it right now though.
[02:13] <graham_100> some reason i dont see ndiswrapper in my menus this time
[02:13] <maniacmusician> it's a command line app, so you shouldn't. to get a gui for it, I think you'd install ndiswrapper-gtk
[02:13] <maniacmusician> but actually
[02:14] <maniacmusician> it seems that there are actually linux drivers for this chipset!
[02:14] <maniacmusician> http://www.ralinktech.com/supp-1.htm
[02:14] <almeida> #kde
[02:14] <graham_100> cool
[02:14] <graham_100> i have problem on my system with wine now hang on
[02:14] <maniacmusician> but they will require compiling and that's something I'm not very experienced with. should probably get on the forums if you need help with it
[02:15] <maniacmusician> unless Corbeaux feels like doing it (being from a non-ubuntu distro, he's probably more used to compiling)
[02:16] <maniacmusician> I can tell you however that you will need to have your kernel headers installed and the correct gcc
[02:16] <graham_100> now that is where i will be totaly lost
[02:17] <maniacmusician> :) yes, it's complicated. I recommend getting on to http://ubuntuforums.org and starting a thread in the general help section
[02:18] <maniacmusician> as I said, your drivers are located at http://www.ralinktech.com/supp-1.htm and you have the RT61 chipset. you need to have your kernel headers and the proper version of gcc installed
[02:20] <graham_100> well at least we have an idea of what the chipset is on the card and i have a loation of the drivers
[02:21] <maniacmusician> yes. there is also a readme file, but that'll be over your head to, its very technical
[02:22] <maniacmusician> I just downloaded the driver, and it also comes with a WPA supplicant, so that's good news for you
[02:22] <graham_100> i have noticed me being single track minded with windows has made linux difficult to learn for me
[02:22] <maniacmusician> yeah, you'll notice that a lot in the coming months if you decide to continue with linux
[02:22] <graham_100> what is a wpa suplicant?
[02:23] <maniacmusician> it's an extra thing that allows you to use WPA encryption on your card. This often doesn't work for people, but your driver supports it, so it's a big plus
[02:23] <graham_100> deffinately going to keep linux it's loads more stable than windows that i have noticed
[02:23] <graham_100> i guess it's a good card i have then
[02:24] <graham_100> :)
[02:24] <maniacmusician> but my advice on getting comfortable with linux is to try and use the command line as much as possible, as it forces you to learn faster. Also, whenever people tell you to run commands or do something, make sure you ask questions about what you're doing, so that you understand it, and what's actually going on with your system as you do it.
[02:25] <maniacmusician> the forums that I mentioned are an excellent place for getting help and learning stuff
[02:25] <graham_100> that's a thing i havn't been doing, i do write things down as much as i can though
[02:25] <graham_100> maybe someday i will help others like me
[02:26] <maniacmusician> yeah, that's good. You'll find that the more common commands, you'll just memorize them, because of how often you use them
[02:26] <maniacmusician> Oh, I'm sure you will. I've only been using linux for 4 or 5 months
[02:26] <maniacmusician> (I tried it last year for a bit, but it was too hard, and I gave it up, went back to windows. Then this year, came back, stuck with it, and got rid of my windows partition too)
[02:28] <graham_100> i jumped in the deep end got fed up with g/f loosing all her work with windows crashing and got rid all together
[02:28] <graham_100> lol
[02:28] <maniacmusician> haha great, it will force you to learn a lot faster.
[02:28] <graham_100> definately g/f is learning it all faster than me lol
[02:32] <maniacmusician> well thats good
[02:35] <Corbeaux> girls are usually more intelligent than us guys
[02:35] <Corbeaux> or they argue until we say so
[02:36] <Corbeaux> i'm a debian guy but forced to use redhat in work :(
[02:38] <maniacmusician> ah I see. I don't really like redhat myself. dont see much advantage to them
[02:38] <maniacmusician> companies just use it because of the reputation it's built up.
[02:40] <Corbeaux> it's good to have someone to blame
[02:41] <Corbeaux> or that's the logic they gave me when i kicked a fuss about hem not using debian the first time
[02:42] <maniacmusician> haha yeah that too
[02:42] <maniacmusician> Well, Ubuntu offers corporate-level support from Canonical, so maybe that's a more viable solution for companies in the future
[02:43] <Corbeaux> in the future yes
[02:43] <Corbeaux> i saw on the website a few months ago that they are even offering certification in ubuntu now
[02:43] <Corbeaux> I think that's an awesome idea
[02:45] <maniacmusician> yeah. The only problem is that it has to catch on. Don't know if that will ever happen
[02:46] <Corbeaux> I try to convert all my friends to ubuntu but it's hard to give them support if you don't actually use it yourself sometimes, especially when they have questions about the GUI. I guess i can tell them to come here in the future
[02:46] <Corbeaux> lots of really patient people here :p
[02:48] <maniacmusician> hehe yeah. I'd actually recommend the forums as well. It's not as fast, but there's a lot of cool people there as well
[02:48] <maniacmusician> http://ubuntuforums.org
[02:49] <Corbeaux> something else that impressed me with ubuntu was it's one step lampp setup, well it was intended at the time, never checked if they actually did it
[02:50] <Corbeaux> lampp used to take up to a full day the first time i tried
[02:50] <maniacmusician> yup, that has been one of the priorities of the developers
[02:51] <maniacmusician> and last I heard, it was going great
[02:51] <Corbeaux> so they did it then?
[02:51] <maniacmusician> well I don't know about one step
[02:51] <maniacmusician> but I've seen how-to's for it on the forum, and they seemed pretty easy to follow
[02:51] <Corbeaux> :)
[02:52] <Corbeaux> i was thinking they would bring it down to apt-get install lamp
[02:53] <maniacmusician> lol, maybe by 7.04
[02:53] <maniacmusician> it's really pretty amazing how fast development is going
[02:54] <Corbeaux> agreed!
[03:27] <kishan> hi
[03:28] <kishan> any one teaching
[03:33] <engla> I think it's pause until tomorrow right now
[03:33] <engla> whatever that means
[03:34] <engla> but it seems classes are mostly during the european day
[03:34] <nalioth> means: "all times are in UTC"
[03:34] <nalioth> yep
[03:34] <engla> (I don't mind I'm CET)
[03:35] <elkbuntu> its a pause, yes. however there's #ubuntu-freshers which iirc is for general questions. there's not many in there now, but hopefully this will improve as friday reaches more people
[03:38] <tonyyarusso> Yeah, I was looking for a clarification on that - why the separate channel for Friday's festivities compared to the rest of the week?
[03:39] <nalioth> yes, that is a good question
[03:39] <nalioth> i see much confusion ahead
[03:39] <tonyyarusso> Starting with me :)
[03:39] <tonyyarusso> Is something else going on here in the meantime, or?
[03:40] <maniacmusician> at least there will be people in here to redirect everyone to #ubuntu-freshers
[03:40] <maniacmusician> no, nothing going on here
[03:42] <tonyyarusso> Weird
[03:47] <elkbuntu> you'd have to ask jono as to the reasoning. im sure somewhere in that british brain of his there's method to the madness
[03:47] <tonyyarusso> British...method...?
[03:48] <maniacmusician> haha
[03:49] <engla> well
[03:49] <engla> if this is a classroom and -freshers is not
[03:49] <engla> then it makes sense
[03:49] <engla> I assume you can speak more freely in -freshers
[03:51] <elkbuntu> engla, there's #ubuntu-classroom-chat as well. why not do the freshers thing there?
[04:09] <nalioth> confusion confusion
[04:10] <tonyyarusso>  /join #ubuntu-confusion ;)
[04:11] <effie_jayx> confusion?
[04:11] <effie_jayx> is there such channel ?
[04:11] <effie_jayx> nalioth, LOL
[04:22] <jrib> is this room safe to bring in someone to help at the moment?
[04:22] <jrib> I fear tonyyarusso may scare them away
[04:22] <tonyyarusso> jrib: All safe now!
[04:23] <Spiceydog> kk
[04:23] <jrib> great
[04:23] <jrib> Spiceydog: alright, you have https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wine opened up?
[04:24] <Spiceydog> yep
[04:24] <jrib> ok, well it says "For help on adding repositories, see the Repositories page" which is a link to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories
[04:25] <jrib> that page will give you a good understanding of how repositories work
[04:25] <Spiceydog> ok
[04:25] <jrib> it goes on to say that you want to add the following repository:
[04:25] <jrib> deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main
[04:25] <Spiceydog> where does it say that?
[04:26] <jrib> [WWW]  WineHQ provides the newest versions of Wine packaged for Ubuntu. To use these, you need to add the WineHQ repository and then install Wine with Synaptic. For help on adding repositories, see the Repositories page.
[04:26] <jrib>    1.
[04:26] <jrib>       Add the repository:
[04:26] <jrib>           *
[04:26] <jrib>             For Ubuntu 6.10 (Edgy Eft): Add the following repository deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main
[04:26] <Spiceydog> ok
[04:27] <jrib> cool, do you understand how to do that?
[04:28] <Spiceydog> well.. when i type:  deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main into the terminal i get this: bash: deb: command not found
[04:28] <jrib> k, that's not the right approach.  Open up your sources.list.  'gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list'
[04:28] <Spiceydog> ok open
[04:29] <jrib> ok pick any line that starts with "deb http..." and paste it here for us to look at
[04:29] <Spiceydog> got it
[04:29] <Spiceydog> deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu dapper-security main restricted
[04:30] <jrib> ok does that look similar to    deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main ?  (yes)
[04:30] <Spiceydog> lol yah
[04:30] <jrib> so that line is just giving us a new deb line to add to your sources.list
[04:30] <Spiceydog> ok
[04:30] <jrib> so at the bottom of the file in your editor, just paste:  deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt edgy main
[04:31] <jrib> on its own line
[04:31] <Spiceydog> yep
[04:31] <Spiceydog> got it
[04:31] <jrib> you can do this through the gui as well, I encourage you to read through https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories
[04:31] <jrib> Spiceydog: ok save the file and exit
[04:31] <Spiceydog> done
[04:31] <Spiceydog> now u want me to type: sudo apt-get update
[04:31] <Spiceydog> ?
[04:32] <jrib> now any time you manually edit sources.list, you have to tell apt-get to update the package list.  Right, apt-get update
[04:32] <Spiceydog> E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/apt/lists/lock - open (13 Permission denied)
[04:32] <Spiceydog> E: Unable to lock the list directory
[04:33] <jrib> sudo apt-get update    you probably skipped the sudo because I didn't say, sorry about that
[04:33] <Spiceydog> ok its working
[04:33] <Spiceydog> hmm
[04:33] <jrib> ok, so now your apt-get will look for packages in the new repository you just added
[04:33] <Spiceydog> well it just did a hole buncha things... but then ended with those 'Could not open lock file...' things..
[04:34] <jrib> try 'sudo apt-get install wine', it should prompt you to install the new version
[04:34] <Spiceydog> except..
[04:34] <jrib> hmm
[04:34] <Spiceydog> E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?
[04:34] <jrib> do you have synaptic open maybe?
[04:34] <Spiceydog> yep
[04:34] <Spiceydog> that was it
[04:34] <Spiceydog> let me redue it
[04:34] <Spiceydog> alright it worked that time
[04:34] <jrib> yeah, synaptic and apt-get are just different ways to do the same thing.  They use the same database so you can only use one at a time
[04:35] <jrib> try 'sudo apt-get install wine', it should prompt you to install the new version
[04:35] <Spiceydog> sudo apt-get install wine now?
[04:35] <Spiceydog> hmm
[04:35] <Spiceydog> well
[04:35] <jrib> wait
[04:35] <jrib> you aren't using edgy
[04:35] <Spiceydog> lol great
[04:36] <jrib> so where are you now, did it install?
[04:36] <Spiceydog> no.. it said this: talled
[04:36] <Spiceydog>         Depends: libxml2 (>= 2.6.26) but 2.6.24.dfsg-1ubuntu1 is to be installed        Depends: libxslt1.1 (>= 1.1.17) but 1.1.15-1ubuntu1 is to be installed
[04:36] <Spiceydog> E: Broken packages
[04:36] <jrib> k
[04:36] <jrib> go back and edit your sources.list
[04:37] <jrib> make it say dapper instead of edgy on that last line
[04:37] <Spiceydog> ok wut was it that i type to get that/
[04:37] <jrib> gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
[04:37] <Spiceydog> kk
[04:38] <Spiceydog> hey shud it say: dapper-security instead of just dapper.. since the other 1 did?
[04:38] <jrib> nope, that's good
[04:39] <Spiceydog> shud i do this again: sudo apt-get update
[04:39] <jrib> right, every time you edit sources.list you should do that
[04:39] <Spiceydog> alright. now ill do the install thing
[04:40] <jrib> this was a good way for you to learn a valuable lesson though, don't mix packages from other distributions or releases
[04:40] <jrib> yep, go ahead and install
[04:40] <Spiceydog> alright it appears to be working now
[04:40] <Spiceydog> omg... slow internet.. 39kbps..
[04:40] <jrib> great, did everything make sense?  Any questions?
[04:41] <Spiceydog> yah made alotta since! thanks for all ur help.
[04:41] <jrib> np
[04:42] <effie_jayx> what good gmas run on wine?
[04:42] <Spiceydog> world of warcraft
[04:43] <Spiceydog> hey does Counter-Strike run on it?
[04:43] <Spiceydog> i got a special cracked version of counter-strike..
[04:43] <jrib> Spiceydog: http://appdb.winehq.org/
[05:45] <anurag> exit
[05:45] <anurag> exit
[05:45] <anurag> quit
[05:45] <anurag> exit
[05:48] <Zbyshek> finally
[05:49] <maniacmusician> lol
[05:49] <towsonu2003> hehehehehe
[05:49] <towsonu2003> I guess s/he was sing a cli irc client?
[05:49] <towsonu2003> sing=using
[05:51] <stalefries> perhaps, although you can use /exit on gui ones too
[05:57] <yaso> Is any indians out there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[05:58] <Zbyshek> what?
[06:00] <poningru> whatup?
[06:00] <yaso> whatsup?
[06:00] <poningru> err -?
[06:00] <poningru> what bhasha?
[06:00] <poningru> err language
[06:01] <tonyyarusso> What the heck poningru ?
[06:02] <poningru> blargh?
[06:02] <poningru> sorry
[06:03] <tonyyarusso> What are you talking about?
[06:03] <Zbyshek> UBUNTU!
[06:04] <poningru> tonyyarusso: yaso asked who here is an indian
[06:04] <poningru> I said I am
[06:04] <tonyyarusso> ah
[06:04] <yaso> ah, thanks
[06:04] <yaso> stupid indians geeks :@
[06:04] <yaso> lol
[06:06] <yaso> sorry, how do i connect BSNL, TATA using Ubuntu
[06:06] <yaso> Do i need pppoe dialer or something ?
[06:10] <abattoir> yaso: try 'sudo pppoeconf'
[06:10] <abattoir> that is of course, if it is PPPoE
[06:10] <abattoir> try #ubuntu for support questions
[06:10] <abattoir> this channel might not be very active
[06:11] <yaso> abattoir, well, I can't config thought. nyway i found something intresting
[06:11] <yaso> abattoir, thanks
[06:11] <abattoir> no problem
[06:17] <tonyyarusso> Does anyone really understand what Jono has in mind for tomorrow?
[06:18] <maniacmusician> I think it's just time when people that are not yet using ubuntu, thinking about using it, or really new to it can come and ask some general questions, get tips on how to get a better experience out of it, etc
[06:18] <tonyyarusso> Who's giving the answers?  Anybody who's been around for a bit?
[06:19] <tonyyarusso> Seems a tad free-for-all-ish.  Could be interesting.
[06:20] <maniacmusician> I think just normal community members
[06:20] <maniacmusician> are giving answers
[06:20] <tonyyarusso> Could be cool
[06:21] <maniacmusician> and yes it does seem free-for-all-ish. I'm hoping it'll be good, as long as we get good community turnout
[06:21] <maniacmusician> of course, if we don't get much fresher turnout, that'll be pointless lol
[06:21] <tonyyarusso> I'm also a little intrigued that with the free-for-all he still seems to have himself handling keeping order in the channel on his own.
[06:22] <maniacmusician> lol hopefully there won't be much need of order-keeping
[06:23] <tonyyarusso> If it's anything like the rest of the week it'll be fine.
[06:24] <maniacmusician> yeah. but it could be full of newbies that have never used IRC and are used to AIM chat rooms or something. also, it has more potential for a lot of active members at one time
[06:24] <maniacmusician> in the classroom, only the presenter talked, mainly, and a few odd people asked questions
[06:24] <tonyyarusso> Yeah
[07:29] <tyerldaf> hey guys I just trying installing linux(unbunc), but it freezes up, ro something it says nautilus real small, and has 3 little boxes in a sqaure type box.
[07:29] <tyerldaf>  I check for defects, and it said 1 checksums failed please reboot, so should I try to redownload it, and reburn it on cd again?
[07:30] <tonyyarusso> Yeah.
[07:30] <tonyyarusso> Check the md5 of the iso before you burn, and burn at a low speed
[07:30] <tyerldaf> okay
[07:30] <tyerldaf> how can i check the md5
[07:30] <Zbyshek> md5sum
[07:31] <tonyyarusso> !verifyiso
[07:31] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about verifyiso - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[07:31] <tonyyarusso> man the bot's letting me down a lot lately
[07:31] <tonyyarusso> !verify
[07:31] <tonyyarusso> ?
[07:31] <ubotu> To mount an .iso image: sudo mount -o loop my.iso /some/mountpoint - bin/cue can be converted to iso with bchunk  .iso images of Ubuntu CDs can be downloaded from http://releases.ubuntu.com Always verify the .iso before burning, see http://help.ubuntu.com/community/VerifyIsoHowto or http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/LQ_ISO/Checking_the_md5sum_in_Windows
[07:31] <tonyyarusso> there we go
[08:34] <tonyyarusso> My my, what have we here?
[08:34] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts#head-b787da88ea1f9d431c1649d8cfaac71824eb4563
[09:03] <yaso> how to reqest "unaffiliated" user clock.
[09:14] <yaso> nvm
[09:27] <jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
[10:07] <dpreacher> no one teaching in class?
[10:08] <MarkoKaa>  Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day
[10:08] <MarkoKaa>  #ubuntu-freshers
[10:08] <dpreacher> what do ubuntu freshers do on this day? get freshened up?
[10:09] <dpreacher> the freshers channel is havin heavy volume discussion goin
[10:09] <MarkoKaa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuFreshersDay for more info :)
[10:09] <yaso> thanks dude
[10:09] <MarkoKaa> no prob
[10:10] <dpreacher> hey that's nice!
[10:11] <dpreacher> i wish most rooms/channels keep the conference mode coz ppl joinin and leaving take up lot of log space and also screen space
[10:12] <MarkoKaa> :)
[10:16] <dpreacher> i mean the few people listed on the wiki page must be having a crazy load of queries to deal with...questions at all levels
[10:55] <jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
[12:17] <jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
[12:19] <shadeofgrey> what pray tell is this channel used for?
[12:20] <Jon> shadeofgrey: classes - see /topic
[12:20] <jono> shadeofgrey, its used for Ubuntu classes
[12:20] <shadeofgrey> like what?
[12:20] <Jon> there's a schedule in the topic which would serve as examples
[12:21] <shadeofgrey> are the classes offered here good for counting toward actual certification in ubuntyu?
[12:21] <shadeofgrey> ARE there certs for ubuntu?
[12:21] <jono> shadeofgrey, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the schedule this week
[12:21] <jono> shadeofgrey, something we are working on
[12:23] <shadeofgrey> well let me just say
[12:24] <shadeofgrey> ive been using ubuntu a long time
[12:24] <shadeofgrey> since warty
[12:24] <shadeofgrey> 'and i have tio say you have all come a long way since then
[12:24] <shadeofgrey> i make a great living converting windows users to ubuntu users
[12:24] <emonkey> shadeofgrey, There's a LPI Certification for Ubuntu avalaible
[12:25] <shadeofgrey> and everybody is always so happy when they watch windows disintegrate into distant memory and ubuntu take its place
[12:25] <shadeofgrey> so far ive convcerted 75 soccer moms and 200 university students all at $125  each...  but that includes migrating all their old data
[12:26] <shadeofgrey> does anybody here know when ubuntu will be multicore capable?
[12:26] <emonkey><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:27] <emonkey> AFAIK it already with the SMP kernel possible
[12:29] <nalioth> shadeofgrey: Ubuntu has had SMP capability since warty
[12:29] <shadeofgrey> okjay
[12:29] <shadeofgrey> where can i find info on putting ubuntu on macbookpro laptops
[12:29] <shadeofgrey> i want to run a dual boot environment
[12:29] <shadeofgrey> really bad
[12:30] <rushdy> wow shadeofgrey, thats pretty good going!  I installed OOo on their machine and they've completely forgotten about MSO
[01:37] <Ramunas> hello
[01:38] <apokryphos> hi
[01:56] <Lesley> heellooo!
[01:57] <nalioth> howdy
[01:57] <Lesley> we are very early
[01:58] <nalioth> actually, you need to visit #ubuntu-freshers
[01:58] <nalioth> they've been going for about 4 hours now
[01:58] <Lesley> oh
[01:58] <Lesley> bye
[04:20] <greguti> hi all, when does it start?
[04:22] <abattoir>  <jono> NOTICE! Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day - head over to #ubuntu-freshers to ask any questions you like about being part of the Ubuntu community!
[04:22] <abattoir> greguti: no sessions here today
[04:22] <atoponce> when will the next classroom sessions be held here?
[04:22] <KenMikaze> hello
[04:23] <greguti> f**k, where is the fresher day then?
[04:23] <KenMikaze> I'm a newbie here.
[04:23] <abattoir> greguti: #ubuntu-freshers :)
[04:23] <atoponce> seems to me this channel is more than just for OpenWeek
[04:23] <greguti> goddam it!
[04:23] <greguti> Thanks abattoir!
[04:23] <abattoir> atoponce: the New user network has classes here often, it is being used for the Open Week
[04:23] <abattoir> atoponce: regular Open Week classes resume tomorrow
[04:24] <abattoir> (depending on your TZ)
[04:24] <KenMikaze> I just have a question.
[04:24] <abattoir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek has the schedule
[04:24] <abattoir> KenMikaze: ask :)
[04:24] <KenMikaze> How come, Kubuntu 6.06 doesn't have firefox installed on the Internet menu?
[04:25] <abattoir> KenMikaze: Kubuntu comes w/ Konqueror as the default web browser
[04:25] <KenMikaze> ok, so what do i have to do then?
[04:25] <abattoir> KenMikaze: you can install firefox either through Adept or by running 'sudo apt-get install firefox' in a terminal
[04:25] <atoponce> sudo aptitude install firefox
[04:25] <KenMikaze> ok, thanks.
[04:25] <abattoir> KenMikaze: Try Konqueror, or get firefox if you want it
[04:26] <KenMikaze> it's ok.. i'll do it the hard way.
[04:26] <atoponce> konqueror does have an advantage over firefox: it's acid2 compliant
[04:26] <KenMikaze> right now, I'm using windows just to download the linuxant driver for my internal modem.
[04:26] <KenMikaze> thanks guys.
[04:28] <KenMikaze> me too, I like firefox...
[04:28] <KenMikaze> btw, what's acid2?
[04:28] <KenMikaze> like i've said, I'm a newb, so please bear with me.
[04:28] <atoponce> http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/
[04:28] <atoponce> it's a css level 2 tester.
[04:32] <KenMikaze> I got it... it's cool.
[04:32] <KenMikaze> well, at least I've got to try konqueror later.
[04:32] <KenMikaze> once i finish the download.
[04:33] <atoponce> you should see how IE renders Acid2. it's horrible
[04:34] <KenMikaze> wish I could, but my i.e.'s blocked by this wga thing.
[04:34] <atoponce> http://level.s69.xrea.com/mozilla/image2/acid2/ie6.png
[04:34] <KenMikaze> checking it out.
[04:34] <atoponce> http://level.s69.xrea.com/mozilla/image2/acid2/ie7b2p.png
[04:35] <KenMikaze> by the way, atoponce, where are you from?
[04:35] <atoponce> opera, safari, konqueror all pass it. i think there are others too
[04:35] <atoponce> utah/usa
[04:36] <atoponce> por que?
[04:36] <KenMikaze> bangkok here, but originally, from the p.i.
[04:36] <KenMikaze> i'm from the philippines, but currently living here in bangkok.
[04:37] <atoponce> cool
[04:38] <atoponce> firefox 3 will pass the test. they'll be using the gecko 1.9 engine
[04:38] <atoponce> i'm looking forward to that
[04:38] <KenMikaze> cool.
[04:38] <KenMikaze> when's firefox 3 coming out?
[04:39] <atoponce> may 2007 is the plan
[04:39] <atoponce> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Schedule
[04:40] <KenMikaze> cool.
[05:33] <jee> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:11] <graham_100> just upgraded to ubuntu 6.10 frommmmmmmmmmmmm dapper as you can see i have a keyboarddddddddddd problem
[06:11] <graham_100> lol
[06:11] <graham_100> how do i fix this?
[06:12] <hifi> repeat rate too fast?
[06:12] <graham_100> iam not sure
[06:12] <graham_100> let            me look
[06:12] <hifi> when you push a button it starts to flood it immediately?
[06:12] <hifi> no slight delay or is your buttons just "sticky"
[06:13] <graham_100> not all thhhhhhhhhhhe time just as you see ittttttttttttt now
[06:13] <hifi> oh
[06:13] <hifi> dont know then
[06:13] <graham_100> if i take off the key repeat when            pressed down should this fix?
[06:14] <graham_100> see whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat i mean with intermittttttttttttent problem?
[06:15] <graham_100> i slowed down the speeeeeed of it still does it thouuuuuugh
[06:15] <graham_100> lol
[06:15] <graham_100> i wonder if turning off key repeat will fix?
[06:15] <hifi> try xset r off
[06:16] <graham_100> i think i fixed it turning key repeat off
[06:16] <graham_100> not looking as it's doing it anymore
[06:17] <graham_100> wireless card probs too :S
[06:17] <graham_100> i know the card is recognised and i know it tells me that the driver is there
[06:18] <graham_100> what do you do next as i am not too sure on that
[06:19] <graham_100> ?
[06:27] <geof1> What happens now ?
[06:28] <graham_100> i think my wireless card is not working?!?!
[06:34] <LinuxBA> Seveas: ping
[06:42] <jrib> graham_100: someone had that key repeat problem yesterday and he got linked to a bug in launchpad, no idea what it was but if you can't find it I'll grep the logs.
[06:49] <graham_100> thanks
[07:49] <napels7> +e napels7
[07:50] <napels7> join
[08:26] <fernando> exit
[09:20] <vyoman> hi is there anybody left from the packaging team?
[09:27] <napels7> join kanaal
[09:28] <napels7> join #ubuntu-classroom
[10:13] <jrib> vyoman: you can always find them at #ubuntu-motu
[10:13] <jrib> vyoman: you can check in #ubuntu-freshers as well today
[10:13] <vyoman> thanks
[11:11] <kishan> hi
[11:11] <PriceChild> hi
[11:12] <PriceChild> everyone's in #ubuntu-freshers kishan
[11:12] <kishan> ok
[11:12] <kishan> what is going on there
[11:13] <kishan> n one is replying there
[11:15] <PriceChild> ask a question
[11:15] <PriceChild> today is freshers day
[11:28] <robotgeek> heh, just a bit too late i guess
[11:31] <stalefries> robotgeek: no, everyone is  in #ubuntu-freshers today
[11:31] <stalefries> !freshers
[11:31] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about freshers - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[11:31] <stalefries> !search freshers
[11:31] <ubotu> Found:
[11:31] <stalefries> oh well


[00:03] <jelmer> anthony__: #ubuntu is probably more appropriate for ubuntu problems
[01:06] <spiv> Good morning.
[01:08] <mwhudson> spiv: good morning
[01:08] <mwhudson> spiv: enjoy your weekend? :)
[01:08] <mwhudson> i hear something happened in australia
[01:09] <spiv> mwhudson: turns out we get to join the UK in making 'hung' parliament jokes!
[01:13] <mwhudson> spiv: congrats
[02:54] <poolie> hi spiv, lifeless
[02:54] <lifeless> hi poolie
[02:56] <spiv> Hi poolie
[02:57] <poolie> spiv, apparently you are pp this week
[02:57] <spiv> Oh, right.  Thanks for reminding me :)
[02:58] <poolie> np
[03:01] <poolie> rms complained on behalf of emacs devs about the "locks aren't released on interrupts" bug
[03:01] <poolie> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/257217
[03:01] <poolie> iwbn to either check it's unwound, or perhaps auto-delete locks from the same machine where the process is obviously gone
[03:05] <spiv> Treating SIGHUP as KeyboardInterrupt sounds ok to me.
[03:05] <poolie> there was a bug about insisting on a username being set
[03:06] <poolie> that'd be a good start
[03:06] <poolie> i was thinking of doing that this afternoon since elmo etc seem to find it painful
[03:06] <spiv> (And quick experiments suggest that SIGHUP is probably what is happening.)
[03:06] <poolie> istm that using $user@$mailname should be safe, and should probably work without manual configuration on our machine
[03:06] <poolie> machines
[03:07] <poolie> arguably we should unwind on sigterm too
[03:07] <poolie> i think the other problem we're likely to hit here is that the transport may be busy
[03:07] <poolie> or may not like being interrupted
[03:08] <spiv> True, although what's the worst that'll happen?  Most likely the worst is that the unwind will run afoul of EINTR issues and fail to unlock, so no worse than the status quo :)
[03:09] <spiv> And hopefully better for at least some transports.
[03:16] <poolie> oh, i'm not saying this is a reason not to unwind on those signals
[03:17] <poolie> rather that people may just find that they get TooManyConcurrent things
[03:17] <poolie> instead of it actually unlocking
[03:17] <poolie> however we can fix that one step at a time
[03:22] <spiv> Right.
[03:31] <poolie> spiv, i'm away after today, is there anything you want me to do, or to give my attention to?
[03:32] <spiv> Not off the top of my head.  If I think of something I'll let you know ASAP.
[05:59] <thumper> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-spunix_bazaar/index.html
[05:59] <thumper> in case people missed it
[05:59] <thumper> interesting that the author is a ruby on rails guy
[05:59] <thumper> (interesting in that most of ruby people use git)
[06:55] <glyph> Hey guys.  Any workaround for this?  <https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/622549>
[07:01] <spiv> jelmer: got a workaround for glyph?
[07:02] <spiv> glyph: I suppose you could try get Launchpad to import it...
[07:03] <spiv> glyph: I wouldn't expect it to do much better, but at least it'll cause the LP devs to care about the bug too ;)
[07:03] <glyph> spiv: Well, you've got the URL :).  Unfortunately my next step is to go back to SVN, unless I can find an immediate workaround.
[07:09] <glyph> spiv: is there already a launchpad project for C&CS?
[07:09] <poolie> glyph: i would try installing bzr-svn into ~/.bazaar/plugins
[07:09] <poolie> from its trunk
[07:09] <spiv> glyph: not that I know of.  If a quick search doesn't find one I'd just register one.  It's not too hard to shift the branches across later if it turns out there is a project for it already.
[07:11] <poolie> glyph: to judge from the bug it seems to be a dupe of, it is a bug in the mac packaging not in the code it-self
[07:19] <glyph> poolie: huh.  from trunk?  how about a release version? :)
[07:19] <poolie> or the latest release
[07:21] <glyph> OK, I'll give that a shot tomorrow, catch you later :)
[08:00] <vila> hi all!
[08:12] <glyph> poolie: After sticking the last bzr-svn release into my ~/.bazaar/plugins, it is looking good-ish
[08:12] <poolie> glyph: that's great
[08:34] <glyph> poolie: thanks for the help :)
[08:37] <poolie> np, sorry for the snag
[08:37] <poolie> and thanks for the feedback
[09:00] <GaryvdM> Hi poolie.
[09:01] <GaryvdM> I'm looking at Bug #621161
[09:02] <poolie> thanks gary
[09:03] <GaryvdM> poolie: I see you added the *_pyx.c files to the packaging branches, but they are not in the debian unstable branch. Any objection to me removing them?
[09:03] <poolie> no
[09:03] <GaryvdM> Ok
[09:04] <poolie> i didn't intentionally specifically add them
[09:07] <spiv> cody-somerville: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bzr/+bug/528041 has SRU approval now
[09:09] <spiv> Heh.
[09:17] <GaryvdM> jelmer: It seems like you have renamed .bzrignore to .bzrignore.THIS in  http://bzr.debian.org/pkg-bazaar/bzr/unstable/
[09:18] <jelmer> GaryvdM: ah, thanks
[09:18] <Guest76162> I suspect that may be related to bzr merge-upstream removing .bzrignore
[09:37] <poolie> vila, spiv was going to see about getting the sru policy to state that we're allowed to put in point releases
[09:38] <poolie> i don't know if we should still push on this
[09:38] <poolie> spiv it might be worth still just talking the issues over with one of the sru managers
[09:40] <vila> poolie, spiv: great to hear, I'm pretty our point release policy is in line with the SRU one but we may need a few iterations to convince people
[09:40] <vila> s/convince/demonstrate or something/
[09:40] <poolie> mm, i think it is
[09:40] <poolie> vila, you could talk to them instead/as well if you want
[09:40] <poolie> i think colin watson is one
[10:27] <poolie> night spiv, GaryvdM
[10:28] <GaryvdM> night poolie
[10:39] <spiv> poolie, vila: I was talking with pitti about this earlier today
[10:39] <vila> spiv: cool, and the summary is ?
[10:40] <spiv> vila: the key bit I guess is <pitti> if all the changes in the new version are just safe and tested bug fixes, it's generally accepted
[10:40] <spiv> vila: plus the regression risk for our changes are quite low (especially as bzr isn't going to make your system unbootable)
[10:42] <spiv> And concretely he approved the diff for the 2.1.2 update quite quickly: our test suite gives a lot of confidence I think.
[10:42] <vila> spiv: great, so our efforts will pay off. If we can get newer bzr versions into older ubuntu releases that will make less maintenance for us :)
[10:49] <poolie> i wonder why the _pyx.c files are showing up in the diff?
[10:54] <GaryvdM> poolie: In some versions of the packaging branch, .bzrignore is removed / renamed.
[10:55] <GaryvdM> I'm not sure what creates the diff though, so that may be a miss diagnosis.
[11:06] <spiv> poolie: My guess is the .deb packages are based on our release tarballs, which include *_pyx.c files IIRC
[11:07] <spiv> Certainly the packaging branch has no common history with lp:bzr :/
[13:23] <thrope> hi - is there any way to copy a file from one branch to another unrelated branch while preserving history for that file?
[13:30] <Noldorin> i'm trying to manually remove a plugin from bzr, but when i delete it from the plugins folder, bzr still recognises it (listed under 'bzr plugins'
[13:30] <Noldorin> what's the problem here?
[13:31] <maxb> There must be another copy installed somewhere else
[13:31] <thrope> Noldorin: maybe you have an egg ... check for anything in site-packages
[13:31] <Noldorin> thrope, right...
[13:32] <fullermd> thrope: No, you can't really do that sort of copy.  Files don't have history, history has files.
[13:33] <thrope> no plugin or tool to just play the commits affecting that file (and only the bits affecting that file) in a new repo?
[13:34] <fullermd> Not that I know of.  Unless there's something in rewrite.
[13:34] <thrope> ok thanks
[13:35] <Noldorin> thrope, maxb: nothing in site-packages now, but it's still listing
[13:35] <thrope> do you have a .local or anytihng in your home directory?
[13:35] <maxb> Noldorin: start a python interpreter, do "import bzrlib.plugins.whatever" then "bzrlib.plugins.whatever"
[13:35] <Noldorin> ok
[13:37] <Noldorin> thrope, where would that be (on windows)?
[13:37] <Noldorin> maxb, yeah, so that pointed to a 'tfs' dir in site-packages, which i then removed. same problem though
[13:37] <thrope> oh I'm not sure - youre user home directory but I think thats much less likely on windows
[13:38] <thrope> how are you running bzr? if it is through tortoise have you restarted?
[13:38] <maxb> Noldorin: do it again after removing whatever you removed, then
[13:39] <Noldorin> maxb, maybe this sheds some light on the problem? http://pastebin.com/D0h8u1xK
[13:39] <Noldorin> thrope, via the command line.
[13:39] <Noldorin> it's installed as an EXE until c:\program files\bazaar
[13:42] <GaryvdM> Noldorin: If you run bzr plugins -v, it shows you the file location that it got the plugin from.
[13:43] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, unfortunately it doesn't list the directory of the plugins that couldn't load
[13:43] <Noldorin> just they they couldn't be loaded from 'C:/Program Files/Bazaar/plugins'
[13:44] <Noldorin> hrmm
[13:44] <GaryvdM> Noldorin: From the pastebin, it seems you have 3 copies of tfs: 'C:/Program Files/Bazaar/plugins/tfs', 'C:/Program Files/Bazaar/plugins/tfsd' and another that should show in plugins -v
[13:52] <Odd_Bloke> Hello all.  Is it possible to fast-export a particular subdirectory of my bzr branch (i.e. /addons/accounts/) and get rid of a prefix of the paths?  So all the commits related to /addons/accounts/ would be output as relating to /accounts/.
[13:56] <jelmer> Odd_Bloke: any reason for not just using "bzr split" ?
[13:57] <Odd_Bloke> jelmer: Ignorance. :)
[14:03] <Odd_Bloke> jelmer: I still need to be able to fast-export, to import into a git repo.  bzr split doesn't seem to do this?
[14:07] <maxb> GaryvdM: new bzr-pipeline packages uploaded to bzr/proposed.
[14:08] <GaryvdM> maxb: Great~
[14:08] <GaryvdM> 11 hour build queue though :-(
[14:09] <maxb> I cheated slightly, and uploaded them as urgency=medium :-)
[14:09] <maxb> lucid build just finished :-)
[14:09] <GaryvdM> Oh - I did not know that made a difference :-O
[14:32] <jam> hey vila, good to have you back
[14:34] <GaryvdM> Hi jam.
[14:35] <vila> hey jam ! Good to be around and welcome back too :)
[14:46] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, http://pastebin.com/KqNnVWc2 - not quite i'm afraid
[14:55] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, any thoughtS?
[15:01] <GaryvdM> Noldorin: Well - I would start by removing the tfsd copy.
[15:02] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, it's not there :S
[15:05] <jam> vila: ping about https://code.launchpad.net/~jameinel/bzr/2.3-btree-chk-leaf/+merge/31904
[15:07] <vila> jam: /me scratching head
[15:08] <vila> jam: they are test fixtures, I can't think of a previous case where we needed test fixtures in production code
[15:10] <vila> jam: are they static functions or can you call them from a different C module ?
[15:11] <jam> vila: they are thunks over to the actual C code
[15:11] <jam> I can call them whatever you want
[15:11] <jam> I can't really put all of them in another module, since some of them are on the class
[15:11] <jam> I can call them "_foo" instead of "foo" or py_foo or whatever
[15:11] <jam> and we have those in other code
[15:12] <jam> though I probably called them py_foo
[15:12] <GaryvdM> Noldorin: I'm sorry, I'm not sure then.
[15:12] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, no worries. but yeah, it's odd. no tfs/tfsd folder anywhere
[15:16] <vila> jam: I won't block on that but having test fixtures in production code tells me something is wrong either the API doesn't expose the right bits to be testable or we don't test the right things or... dunno, bad feeling
[15:18] <vila> may be just make them private or something if they are just accessors...
[15:18] <GaryvdM> Noldorin: Have you looked at .bzr.log?
[15:18] <vila> it may also be because they should be tested from a C framework...
[15:19] <vila> jam: may be the 'test_' prefix triggered a knee-jerk
[15:19] <jam> vila: if I was writing Cython code, I would have used "cpdef foo"
[15:20] <jam> which defines both a pure-python 'foo' and a C 'foo' and selects the right one at compile time
[15:20] <vila> they don't test anything really
[15:20] <vila> hmm, interesting, when do we switch ? :D
[15:21] <jam> vila: they don't test anything, they expose a function to pure python that I only want the code to be calling from within C
[15:21] <vila> jam: right, so they are accessors targeted at tests, may be a simple s/test_/get_/ will be enough
[15:21] <jam> would you be happier with py_ or _py_ prefix?
[15:22] <vila> jam: yup, I think so
[15:22] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, http://pastebin.com/hkfm92kc
[15:22] <Noldorin> interesting
[15:22] <jam> they are a little bit test related, since the return types, etc are tuned for ease of testing, versus ease of use as an api
[15:22] <vila> jam: no problem with that, if more uses are discovered, since they are private, they could be tuned again :)
[15:23] <jam> they aren't exactly accessors, since some of them actually call another function
[15:23] <jam> but some, yes, since they wrap the internal object back into python objects
[15:24] <vila> jam: on the other hand, IME tests help a lot to find the right APIs... so I'm not that concerned about them not addressing needs you didn't... need :)
[15:25] <GaryvdM> Noldorin: Line 13 does seem to suggest that there is a C:/Program Files/Bazaar/plugins\tfsd
[15:25] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, yeah, it's really strange. it definitely doesn't exit.
[15:33] <jam> *sigh* I just upgraded to Thunderbird 3, and it turns out to be a bigger memory hog that *Firefox*
[15:33] <jam> I had to prune a lot of old stuff because otherwise the indexing would hit 1GB+
[15:34] <jam> (I had ~300k spam messages, that I didn't really want indexed, and was just keeping in case I wanted to train a future spamassassin, sort of thing)
[15:34] <GaryvdM> jam: Yhea - I ended up disabling the indexing.
[15:35] <jam> the global search seems interesting, but the bloat, dear god the *bloat* :)
[15:35] <fullermd> 300k spams?!
[15:35] <fullermd> Why would you keep a whole week around?
[15:35] <jam> I should not be getting lag *while typing*
[15:36] <GaryvdM> I give the indexing a go again when 3.1 is available in ubuntu
[15:38] <jam> GaryvdM: I also find it very surprising that on Windows, they put the global sqlite file in Roaming. Which means 400-1GB of data gets put in what would be your 'synchronized between machines' location.
[15:40] <jam> GaryvdM: you *can* select a folder to not be indexed, but you have to do it manually for each folder you want that way, I couldn't find a way to batch select
[15:40] <jam> which was also pretty annoying, since I was sorting old content
[15:42] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, as stumped as me, eh?
[15:43] <GaryvdM> Noldorin: Yhea. I would maybe resort to using pdb, but maybe someone else may be able to help.
[15:44] <Noldorin> GaryvdM, ok, no worries. thanks anyway
[15:44] <Noldorin> pdb i might try, yeha
[15:50] <dahoste> hey #bzr gurus.
[15:51] <dahoste> I'm a recent convert from svn.  Loving bzr so far.  Lightweight checkouts were the seal-the-deal feature for me (over hg).
[15:52] <dahoste> I have a new project about to get started, though, and there's a very strong case for needing 'sparse' (sometimes called 'partial') checkouts, which are common in svn-land.
[15:52] <dahoste> What are the odds of ever seeing good native bzr support for such a feature?
[15:57] <fullermd> Well, I'd like to see it, but I don't think it's in screaming distance of the top of anybody's todo list...
[15:57] <dahoste> I.e. is it architecturally feasible, and just hasn't been done yet, or does the notion itself go too severely against the grain of bzr's concept of repo?
[15:57] <jam> dahoste: the recommendation is to split up the project into multiple smaller projects
[15:58] <jam> it is against the concept of 'atomic tree'
[15:58] <jam> possible, we've discussed it periodically
[15:58] <fullermd> Well, distinguish partial _checkouts_ from partial _branches_.  There's no sensible way to _branch_ just a subpart of a branch, but there's no reason at all that you can't conceptually have a _working tree_ that only has some of the files.
[15:58] <fullermd> Bah.  So does being able to specify files to 'commit'.  In fact, it's exactly the same againstness.
[15:58] <jam> but it raises some issues with 'commit' when files aren't present, and what to do if 'merge' would touch files you don't have, etc
[16:05] <dahoste> yeah, in my case I figured the 'need' for partial checkouts should probably be converted into an argument for re-organizing the project into multiple pieces.  That's sensible to some degree, but still runs aground in some places.   The _ideal_ scenario would indeed allow for partial branches, but partial checkouts would be a huge win.
[16:09] <dahoste> jam, as for commit issues... it probably makes a huge difference whether a hypothetical 'partial' working tree is partial in a fine-grain sense (i.e. scattershot, file by file, dir by dir) vs. partial in a course-grain sense (the checkout designated a node in the tree as a root point and implicitly included everything from there down, as an 'atomic subtree').    If that makes any sense....
[16:11] <fullermd> Well, I don't worry about partial branches.  That's a major break, and besides, as long as you're in a repository, the marginal cost of a branch is near zero.
[16:12] <dahoste> But I'm talking just from an outside perspective.  I don't have any insight into the guts, of either svn or bzr.   For instance, I know svn poops in every dir of the working tree ('.svn') but don't know if that's the lynchpin in its ability to do partials, or is just incidental implementation detail.    And note that I love the fact that bzr doesn't poop all over the working tree.
[16:15] <rubbs> I'm not familiar with partial checkouts/branch workflows, but would views help?
[16:15] <fullermd> Well, since svn doesn't have any "base" granularity, it sorta has to have arbitrary support to work at all.
[16:16] <fullermd> Since each dir only knows about itself and its subdirs in a .svn/ sense, partials Just Work(tm).  Doing it all from a central location requires explicitly adding support.
[16:17] <jam> dahoste: one of the primary problems with the svn model is that while commit either succeeds or fails, it doesn't track whether the files are in a consistent state across the tree
[16:17] <jam> meaning. if you commit to 'foo' I can commit to 'bar' without updating foo
[16:17] <jam> even though they may be logically linked
[16:17] <jam> pretty much all DVCS take that to the next step, and say that everything in the tree must be up to date for the commit
[16:18] <jam> (each commit is a tree-wide state)
[16:18] <jam> being able to branch 'part' of that doesn't make a lot of sense
[16:18] <dahoste> rubbs, I did initially hope that views combined with a lightweight checkout might scratch the itch well enough.  But my understanding of views is that they're really just local 'convenience' filters, and don't affect what comes/goes over the wire, or what actually resides in the working tree.
[16:20] <rubbs> dahoste: correct, but I'm not sure why that's such a big problem. Again, I'm naive about partial branch workflows, but why would you not want a consistant branch altogether? Partials to me seem to give a disjointed feel.
[16:21] <jam> rubbs: my guess is for someone coming from svn, where everything is one-big-tree
[16:21] <fullermd> Again, distinguish partial branches from partial checkouts.  Since revisions are whole-tree, partial branching is a serious model break.
[16:22] <fullermd> Partial checkouts aren't.  Certainly you can think of a handful of different levels of support, of increasing demands on the tool, but...
[16:22] <dahoste> jam, yeah, I guess that's just the inherent trade-off of the design.   And don't get me wrong - I'm not faulting bzr for not being able to do partials.  But it came up as a potential show-stopper for using bzr in a new project, and I just wondered what the likelihood was of bzr ever fielding such a feature.   hg has some half-baked notions about it, but I'm not holding my breath about it either -- I'm sure it faces similar architectural obstacles t
[16:22] <dahoste> o doing it as bzr.
[16:23] <jam> dahoste: the most likely solution bzr will implement is similar to git's submodules, and IIRC hg's forest extension. Where you can define that *this* tree depends on 'those' trees. So when you do a checkout of the top level, you get everything, but you can also just request for a single subtree
[16:23] <fullermd> I don't believe there's a single architectural obstacle.  It's just a moderate hunk of implementation.
[16:23] <jam> Right now we have scmproj and bzr-externals, to do something like this
[16:24] <jam> poolie has mentioned that it is likely to be a priority feature in the next 6-month cycle
[16:24] <fullermd> That's just not the same at all..
[16:25] <dahoste> rubbs, partials are disjointed.  And even in svn, where it's par for the course, there's an understood responsibility on the part of the person using a partial to keep in mind that they're (purposefully) working with just part of a larger dependent tree.     And (for me anyway), a priori subtrees would be just fine... I don't need svn's ad hoc support.      Yeah:  it's the classic case of:  subdir so-and-so of a big src tree functions independently _enough_ that someone can contribute to it meaningfully without being burdened with the entire tree.  Particularly if, say, the subtree can be had for a few MBs or less, and the rest of the tree takes a few G
[16:34] <dahoste> Bs.
[16:37] <dahoste> And while that's also the case that argues most strongly for just constituting the project as multiple sub-projects, it's nice to be able to still be capable of managing the project from one mega root node (for those that need to).   Having cake and wanting to eat it too.  :)
[16:52] <dahoste> Thanks all for your thoughts and time.   I'll keep my eye out for progress on nested-trees, or any other similar approach.   Cheers!
[17:48] <mneptok> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-spunix_bazaar/index.html
[18:57] <maxb> GaryvdM: You said you did an installability test on hardy...... including loggerhead?
[19:04] <pygi> heya
[19:04] <pygi> :)
[19:11] <maxb> Why do we ship testtools and subunit in the bzr PPAs?
[19:43] <james_w> maxb: they are needed for the testsuite, so either Build-Depends, or for the benefit of developers?
[20:34] <maxb> lifeless: hi. do we just publish testtools and subunit in the bzr ppas for developer convenience, or is there a greater reason?
[20:35] <maxb> (I've noticed that Launchpad has somehow managed to silently fail to publish testtools in ~bzr/proposed jaunty+karmic, though the web ui says it has)
[20:38] <lifeless> I don't remember :(. We do occasionally ask a user to run the test suite to check platform idionsyncracies
[20:42] <maxb> I am tempted to rebuild both subunit and testtools to get rid of the version numbers which pretend to be main-archive uploads but aren't :-/
[21:14] <jam> GaryvdM: are you using the win32 ec2 host?
[21:18] <jam> vila: are you around?
[21:37] <jam> jml: you don't have any tags for testtools releases aside from 0.9.2
[21:37] <jam> in lp:testtools
[21:38] <rubbs> Ok, quick question, it's been quite some time since I've been in the bzr world. In terms of checkouts, a Heavyweight checkout is the default, and really it's just a local branch that sends it's commits to it's master before it commits locally. And a Lightweight checkout is more like SVN checkouts. Is this correct?
[21:38] <dash> rubbs: correct.
[21:38] <rubbs> dash: thanks.
[21:40] <fullermd> Except thinking about heavy checkouts like that is IMAO likely to confuse more than help...
[21:41] <rubbs> Ok, now I think I'm getting it. Then binding a branch "A" to branch "B" makes A a 'heavy checkout' with B as it's master. Unbinding A from B would change it back to a normal standalone branch (assuming it's not in a repo) correct?
[21:41] <dash> fullermd: why so?
[21:41] <rubbs> fullermd: how so? how would you suggest thinking about them?
[21:41] <fullermd> Cue iteration 11,471 of "bound branches vs heavy checkouts"...
[21:41] <fullermd> Better to think of no heavy or light, just checkouts with or without a local cache.
[21:41] <dash> rubbs: some folks have made a distinction between checkouts and bound branches but i never figured it out.
[21:42] <rubbs> is there something I can read on this. I don't mean to beat an already dead horse
[21:42] <dash> i do, i do ;D
[21:42] <rubbs> haha
[21:42] <fullermd> http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/MatthewFuller/BoundBranches
[21:42] <rubbs> thank you.
[21:43] <dash> yeah but that's not documentation about how bzr works =/
[21:43] <fullermd> No, how bzr works is that it has neither bound branches nor heavy checkouts.  It has something that's part one, part the other, and used for botrh.
[21:44] <dash> it sounds like you are using those terms differently from everyone else then :)
[21:45] <fullermd> Leaving aside "how it should be", I still believe that THINKING of the two as separate things and bearing in mind which mechanism you want in any given case, will make things work smoother in the long run, even though to bzr the two are the same.
[21:45] <fullermd> I don't think so.  I think I'm just using them more clearly.
[21:45] <dash> so... to bzr, they're the same.
[21:45] <dash> okay then :)
[21:46] <fullermd> (I also think bound branches tend to be more confusing than checkouts, and that a lot of people aren't clear as to which role they're trying to use, which is the primary source of corner-painting)
[21:47] <rubbs> Ok, maybe this would be better to ask the best way to implement the following workflow: I'm looking for a way for developers to have their own branches, but have those branches mirrored on a central location so that it makes it easier for backups (for me). Here's the kicker though, most devs are on the LAN so network traffic wouldn't be bad, but we have two devs who work from home. I'd like a way for them to be able to lots of stuff locally ...
[21:47] <rubbs> ... and sync up when needed.
[21:47] <rubbs> to do lots *
[21:48] <fullermd> IMO, as soon as there's a network involved (even a LAN), light checkouts can be fairly well ignored (perhaps not conceptually, but certainly implementionally)
[21:48] <fullermd> Bound branches sound like what you want there.
[21:48] <rubbs> well right, hence the heavy vs bound branch I was goint to ask ;)
[21:49] <rubbs> sounds like heavy checkouts are more svn-esk and bounc branches are just mirrored branches. (conceptually at least)
[21:50] <fullermd> The distinction as to which way you'd think about it there, I think, would hinge on the question of how you think about where the branches are.
[21:50] <fullermd> If you're thinking of devs having their own branches on there machines, that are automagically mirrored to the server when they do stuff, that's a bound branch.
[21:50] <fullermd> If the dev's branches are on the server, and they just happen to have a full cache of it in their local WT, that's a heavy checkout.
[21:50] <dash> in other words... a distinction without a difference.
[21:50] <rubbs> ok, but are they implemented the same way?
[21:51] <rubbs> I understand what you are saying
[21:51] <fullermd> Well, history in bzr vs. history in git is a distinction without a difference too.
[21:52] <fullermd> Well, they're implemented the same way because bzr doesn't acknowledge any distinction.
[21:52] <rubbs> I will likely teach them the heavy way as I think I'd like them to stick with "server" centric ideology, but I'm hoping that this doesnt' limit me on a technical side. If I do heavies and not bound branches, am I going to cause problems if I need to convert those heavy co's to standalones on their machines?
[21:52] <rubbs> ah
[21:53] <rubbs> you just answered my question then. thank you
[21:53] <rubbs> but I think I understand your distinction there and I think it's going to be easier to teach them that.
[21:53] <rubbs> thanks
[21:54] <rubbs> My questinos were more of a clarification of what I was pretty sure I knew, just didn't know how to say it, so you guys helped me figure that out
[21:56] <dash> rubbs: to convert to a standalone branch you do 'bzr unbind'
[21:56] <dash> rubbs: and also you can do 'bzr ci --local' to commit without sending it upstream
[21:57] <dash> (without unbinding)
[21:57] <rubbs> dash: ah that last one is perfect, I should have remembered that.
[21:57] <rubbs> thanks
[21:57] <rubbs> also is there any difference between checkin and commit? should be the same correct?
[21:57] <fullermd> They're the same command.
[21:58] <fullermd> The difference is about the same as the difference between [ and test  ;)
[21:58] <rubbs> haha, great thanks
[22:30] <ddaa> except less evil... [ is one evil bit of shell hacker
[22:30] <ddaa> it looks like a grouping syntax, but it's just a command name
[22:32] <fullermd> I prefer to think of that more as a symtom of the infirmery of sh as a language than a failing of test  ;p
[22:32] <jelmer> it's evil disguised as cleverness
[22:32] <dash>  everybody's got a shell with [[ now though
[22:32] <fullermd> $ which [
[22:32] <fullermd> /bin/[
[22:33] <ddaa> sh makes sense as far as it goes, but [ is like a alligator in the hide of a kitten.
[22:33] <ddaa> dash: that's funny you should say that, considering your nickname :-)
[22:34] <ddaa> maybe it's even bash.org worthy :-)
[22:34] <fullermd> Oh, the doubly irony   :p
[22:36] <fullermd> Extra funny how I just spend the last week watching another round of "we need a better scripting language than sh" run around a mailing list   :p
[22:37] <ddaa> submitted to bash.org as 928499
[22:38] <ddaa> fullermd: just saw that on pypi: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pc/0.0.1
[22:39] <fullermd> Ick, but you'd have to have python for that   ;]
[22:39] <fullermd> I like how version 0.0.1 was uploaded today, and 0.0.3 was uploaded...  today.
[22:40] <fullermd> Now that's fast development.
[22:40] <ddaa> or banana software
[22:45] <fullermd> Oh, I was hoping they had a more creative syntax I could steal...  shucks.
[22:45] <ddaa> like using __repr__ for command substitution? :-)
[22:46] <fullermd> Over my head   :p
[22:46] <ddaa> in python<3, `foo` is an alias for repr(foo), it little known though
[22:46] <fullermd> But I have a vague desire for some sneaky-simple syntax for calling out commands for my creeping-along make(1) replacement.
[22:47] <fullermd> Haven't yet looked at it in-depth, since it's way down the todo list.
[23:01] <ddaa> maybe check logix: http://logix-language.sourceforge.net/
[23:01] <dash> that's pretty dead unfortunately :(
[23:01] <ddaa> it's still kind of neat
[23:02] <ddaa> python lacks a good DSL framework
[23:04] <fullermd> Well, that's why I figure if I work slowly enough at it, I can just convert it to perl 6 before it's ready for release  ;p
[23:08] <jam> losa ping
[23:11] <mbarnett> heya jam
[23:11] <jam> hi mbarnett, I'm trying to figure out if pqm is hung or not, can you check it out? I sent it something that ended up having a lot of failures for python2.4, and I haven't gotten any response yet.
[23:11] <jam> I fixed it up, and resubmitted, but I don't see the new request either
[23:12] <jam> I was worried the response email might be too big, and gumming things up
[23:12] <jam> mbarnett: anyway, its end-of-day for me now, and I think it just showed up, so if you're busy, it can wait until tomorrow
[23:15] <mbarnett> jam: heh, i'll certainly poke at pqm and look for any obvious errors
[23:16] <jam> mbarnett: thanks
[23:16] <mbarnett> welcome
[23:26] <jelmer> hmm
[23:37] <sttng359> hello
[23:37] <sttng359> I'm having trouble with bzr-svn and symlinks not being created correctly
[23:38] <sttng359> sometimes I get zero-length files where there should be symlinks
[23:38] <sttng359> svn check out without issue.
[23:40] <sttng359> When I checkout the images folder directly with bzr, I get symlinks, but when I checkout the top-level trunk folder, it creates zero-length files for symlinks in the images folder
[23:55] <sttng359> oh, it appears I have bad information in the shared repository I'm using
[23:56] <sttng359> A fresh checkout of trust without shared repo does create proper symlinks.
[23:56] <sttng359> trust should be trunk.
[23:57] <sttng359> is there any way I can try and resync my existing repo with svn?


[22:59] <nicoz-> Hi everyone I wanted to apply for the cloak as a newly approved ubuntu member..thanks in advance
[23:02] <sarnold> nicoz-: what's your launchpad username?
[23:03] <nicoz-> nicoz91  https://launchpad.net/~nicoz91
[23:07] <sarnold> nicoz-: hmm; that page says 'nicoz' is the nickname on libera, but you're 'nicoz-', and it looks like neither of those two nicknames is currently identified to nickserv .. I'm pretty confused ;)
[23:08] <nicoz-> this is identified
[23:08] <nicoz-> the others are always my bouncers
[23:09] <tomreyn> * [nicoz-] is logged in as nicoz
[23:09] <tomreyn> (according to /whois)
[23:09] <sarnold> cool, thanks
[23:10] <nicoz-> ;)
[23:19] <nicoz-> thanks ;)*
[23:19] <sarnold> woot :)
[23:19] <sarnold> welcome aboard ;)
[23:20] <nicoz-> i could not wait :P


[09:32] <tdr112> hey czajkowski do you remeber these guys at ossbarcamp http://www.careersportal.ie/news/news.php?Heading=Dublin+teenager%27s+developes+software++&ID=19101201
[09:33] <czajkowski> yup
[09:36] <czajkowski> but now they are selling it based on Ubuntu
[09:36] <czajkowski> wonder how legal that is.
[09:41] <slashbel> nothing illegal about selling open source software
[09:41] <czajkowski> no there isnt
[09:41] <slashbel> although IANAL but as long as the source is available…
[09:42] <ebel> nothing illegal about selling FLOSS.
[09:42] <ebel> RMS sold copies of emacs back in the day
[09:43] <czajkowski> I assumed/thought there would be some sort of agrreement with canonical and them  for distribution of their product even if it has been reskined
[09:44] <ebel> *however* if you sell floss software, then any of your customers are able to resell it and copy it as often as they like
[09:44] <ebel> so the economics of selling software change if it's open source software, so it's not as common a business approach
[09:45] <ebel> and yes, trademarked terms (like "ubuntu" or "ubuntu linux" or whatever etc.) can get tricky and differnet
[09:45] <czajkowski> yup
[09:45] <ebel> this is why the free version of red hat is called CentOS, and there's iceweasel/firefox etc.
[09:45] <czajkowski> and they are literally just adding a skin to the Ubuntu desktop
[09:46] <slashbel> aye, the only restrictions Ubuntu™ are related to use of their trademark
[09:46] <slashbel> can enforce are related*
[09:46] <czajkowski> ack
[09:46] <slashbel> it's great, it's the only way the community can exist!
[09:47] <ebel> *do* canonical have a trademark on "ubuntu"? I remember seeing "ubuntu cola" and few other bits and bobs... I wonder if it's too generic...
[09:47] <slashbel> we have already seen what happens with proprietory unixes
[09:47] <czajkowski> ubuntu is just a word also so no
[09:47] <ebel> the OSI tried (and failed) to get a trademark on "open source".
[09:47] <czajkowski> but if it was a domain or a logo
[09:47] <czajkowski> they do keep an eye o it
[09:47] <czajkowski> so there is a site ubuntu.ie
[09:47] <czajkowski> they got it first
[09:48] <slashbel> ebel: Apple™ and Apple Records™ situation?
[09:48] <ebel> and trademark depends on context & industry.
[09:49] <slashbel> and if you do not enforce your trademark, you lose it!
[09:49] <czajkowski> indeed
[09:49] <ebel> so you can ford a river (as people have been saying for a thousand years) but you cannot call your new sort of car a Ford.
[09:49] <czajkowski> Apple take it to the extreme - aka apples in poland
[09:49] <czajkowski> and then they also lose like yesterday :D
[09:50] <ebel> the other problem with selling FLOSS is you (obviously) cannot put any extra restrictions on it. e.g. any EULA
[09:50] <czajkowski> indeed
[09:50] <ebel> this is why you can't get any GPL software on the Apple App Store. VLC was pulled for this reason. Apple don't want it.
[09:50] <czajkowski> my worry is then when stuff *breaks* and doesnt work where do they get support
[09:50] <czajkowski> if they dont they then have a bad user experience
[09:51] <ebel> So if you are green & new, one might put an EULA on one's downloaded software, since one might assume all software has it.
[09:51] <ebel> but if you try to put EULAs type things on it, you're commiting copyright infrigement etc.
[09:51] <ebel> tis tricky this copyright & trademark law!
[09:52] <czajkowski> indeed
[09:52] <czajkowski> my sister is going into that area of specalising
[09:53] <ebel> and of course accepting money for a thing, and if you cannot deliver that thing, then things get complicated...
[12:10] <airurando> afternoon
[12:10] <airurando> tried to upgrade from 12.04 to 12.10
[12:10] <zmoylan> tried is the worrying part
[12:10] <airurando> all appeared OK but the display res is very low
[12:10] <airurando> can't see dash or top menu
[12:11] <airurando> can get to settings through right click
[12:11] <popey> o/
[12:12] <airurando> but under display the only resolution options I get are 600 x 800 and afternoon popey
[12:12] <czajkowski> popey: thanks
[12:12] <czajkowski> airurando: had some updates
[12:12] <czajkowski> and not sure what happened
[12:12] <czajkowski> 13:10 < airurando> all appeared OK but the display res is very low
[12:12] <czajkowski> 13:10 < airurando> can't see dash or top menu
[12:12] <czajkowski> 13:11 < airurando> can get to settings through right click
[12:12] <airurando> yeah I appear to be on 12.10
[12:13] <popey> what kind of machine is is it?
[12:13] <airurando> this is on my laptop
[12:13] <popey> laptop/desktop model?
[12:13] <airurando> dell studio 1555
[12:13] <zmoylan> sounds like its missing drivers
[12:13] <airurando> login screen seems perfect
[12:13] <airurando> problem arised after login
[12:14] <popey> are you on the machine now?
[12:15] <airurando> working off a different machine at the moment
[12:15] <airurando> but I have the laptop up and running
[12:15] <airurando> cant bring up anything except settings and new doc
[12:16] <popey> is it on the network?
[12:16] <airurando> under the Displays settings the top res it will allow is 10.24 x 768
[12:17] <airurando> yie it is on the network
[12:19] <popey> switch to tty with CTRL+ALT+F1
[12:19] <popey> and then login
[12:19] <popey> and then sudo apt-get install pastebinit
[12:19] <popey> and then pastebinit /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[12:19] <popey> (case sensitive)
[12:19] <popey> and give us the link
[12:22] <airurando> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1289146/
[12:29] <airurando> Think I will try this http://askubuntu.com/questions/78906/ati-amd-proprietary-fglrx-graphics-install-fails-how-can-i-resolve-the-problem
[12:29] <airurando> and reboot
[12:45] <airurando> situation appears to be the same
[12:46] <popey> :(
[12:46] <popey> sorry, I know nothing about ATI
[12:47] <airurando> no prob popey
[12:47] <airurando> thanks for trying
[12:47] <airurando> I reckon I'll go with a fresh install.
[12:48]  * airurando fleas to collect the kids and get some blank DVDs
[14:07] <airurando> ebel: I'll take some /all of the 12.04 CDs from you if you bring then to TOG tomorrow.  Celar out the flat in prep for the 12.10 DVDs.
[14:07] <airurando> *Clear
[14:08] <ebel> hehe
[14:08] <ebel> sure, I'll be in TOG tomorrow, I can bring the CDs
[14:09] <airurando> cool
[14:10] <airurando> see you at about 7pm
[14:10] <airurando> now back to the laptop.
[14:10] <airurando> I've reinstalled 12.04
[14:10] <airurando> going to try the upgrade again on a vanilla machine
[14:38] <ebel> ok
[15:15] <tdr112> best of look
[15:15] <tdr112> luck should i say
[16:18] <airurando1> vanilla install of ubuntu 12.04 fully updated.
[16:18] <airurando1> attempted to upgrade to 12.10
[16:18] <airurando1> same graphics issue encountered again.
[16:18] <airurando1> reverting to fresh install of Ubuntu 12.10
[16:26] <tdr112> well thats crap
[19:50] <czajkowski> tdr112: whats up
[19:54] <zmoylan> think he was commenting on airurando having trouble with graphics after updating.
[19:55] <czajkowski> ah
[20:16] <tdr112> i was


[00:01] <Kira> Hi everybody :)
[00:06] <Kira> anybody here? I'm looking for help
[00:07] <k1l> Kira: go on. then we can decide if we can help :)
[00:08] <Kira> ok. I upgraded my lucid to maverick and added several PPA's and keyboard doesn't work in Xorg :) .. also onboard keyboard doesn't work too)
[00:09] <Kira> my hardware is Acer 5750G
[00:09] <Kira> Keyboard work in win7 and liveCD
[00:09] <k1l> Kira: this is not a technical support channel (see topic). i think you want to try #ubuntu instead
[00:09] <Kira> works
[00:10] <Kira> sorry.. I'm abcent minded sometimes
[00:10] <Kira> thanks for advice. bb
[00:10] <k1l> no problem.


[11:30] <mokmeister> hello everybody!
[11:31] <mokmeister> How did the launch party go last week?
[14:48] <tdr112> goofd
[14:48] <tdr112> good


[07:57]  * bryceh waves
[07:59]  * mlankhorst waves
[08:00]  * tjaalton yawns
[10:06] <tjaalton> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-r-lts-enablement-stack
[10:07] <tjaalton> in case you've missed that
[10:14] <bryceh> tjaalton, thanks
[10:33] <stefan`> hi - is there any news from upstream about bug 1061073? the bug on freedesktop.org shows surprisingly little activity...
[10:47] <tjaalton> stefan`: if there's no activity on the bug, then no
[10:48] <mlankhorst> sorry I was called in to a linaro meeting
[10:50] <tjaalton> had fun there?
[10:50] <mlankhorst> definitely, but that did cause me to miss release schedule one :)
[10:51] <tjaalton> nothing too interesting here
[10:51] <tjaalton> and the room is packed
[10:51] <tjaalton> hot & smelly
[10:52] <tjaalton> or maybe it's just me..
[10:52] <mlankhorst> it's cold and empty here!
[10:53] <mlankhorst> drm enhancements on lce too, wondering if i ought to attend
[10:54] <tjaalton> meh, stupid pad.. scrollbar doesn't work