[07:34] <akarsh> Hi, just wanted to know why has there no release of Nightly build in the past 6 weeks
[20:41] <brainwash> what happened? no more daily ppa builds?
[20:45] <Unit193> Last I saw: "...and utopic is affected by an additional bug too (bug 1347257), although that one has a fix" - "it's not really a priority at the moment - we can't even build on trusty right now" "(bug 1348333)" -- but that was back in July.
[20:46] <Unit193> Also last I saw: < chrisccoulson> i need 34 hour days here ;)
[20:47] <brainwash> thanks for the info
[20:48] <Unit193> Sure, sorry I couldn't help.
[20:50] <brainwash> maybe some hint could be added to the ppa description until things are working again
[20:51] <Unit193> Someone seemed to think https://twitter.com/FirefoxNightly/status/507052209029132289 was worth linking here.
[20:53] <Unit193> asac has access to do so, and he's been more active recently.


[22:31] <Alexion> Hello! I am using Lubuntu 22.04.1 LTS. I was writing a bootable live USB flash drive using MultiWriter and I got an error during the process. After that, the USB flash drive is not shown as a block device anymore and also fdisk doesn't show the device as /dev/sdb/. I'm not able to mount the device either. What can I do so I can use my USB flash drive again?
[22:38] <arraybolt3> Alexion: If it's not in lsblk anymore, that's flash drive failure.
[22:38] <arraybolt3> Flash drives eventually wear out after you use them too much, and when they do, they frequently die all at once.
[22:38] <arraybolt3> Flashing an ISO is a prime time for this to happen since you're writing quite a bit of data.
[22:39] <arraybolt3> Once that happens, the drive is dead and should be replaced.
[22:42] <Alexion> arraybolt3: I bought the drive just a few months ago and haven't used it much. Also the ISO was Tiny Core Linux, so very small ISO. When running lsblk, I can see sdb disk with 0 Bytes.
[22:42] <arraybolt3> Yeah, that's a classic sign of drive failure. What brand was it?
[22:43] <arraybolt3> Software is, in theory, unable to "break" a drie in this way due to a problem in the software. When drives behave like this, it is safe to assume that the problem is always with the drive.
[22:43] <arraybolt3> *drive, not drie
[22:44] <arraybolt3> (There is the possibility that the problem is with your motherboard too - perhaps it's feeding too much voltage into the drive or something, but that's very rare.)
[22:45] <Alexion> arraybolt3: it's written on it MediaRange, it's a 64GB flash drive
[22:46] <arraybolt3> I'm not familiar with that brand - it looks like a cheap off-brand, and cheap off-brand drives are infamous for doing this. It might even be a scam drive (where the drive reports more storage than it actually has but then fails in some way when you try to write beyond the storage it has).
[22:46] <arraybolt3> Generally, stick to well-known names like Sandisk, Lexar, PNY, etc. Sandisk is, from what I've heard, especially good.
[22:47] <arraybolt3> Sometimes cheap drives will work well, sometimes they'll fail early. More expensive ones can do that too, but cheap ones do it more frequently.
[22:51] <Alexion> arraybolt3: what is your opinion on Samsung flash drives?
[22:52] <arraybolt3> Samsung is a very trustworthy brand, on par with or possibly better than Sandisk.
[23:03] <Alexion> arraybolt3: besides Samsung and SanDisk, would you recommend me any other flash drive brands?
[23:04] <arraybolt3> I've had a good experience with Lexar, PNY, and Verbatim. Kingston is possibly good too, but from what I've read their less good than the others. Samsung and Sandisk are probably the best though.
[23:06] <Alexion> I see. What about ADATA ?
[23:06] <arraybolt3> Alexion: Note that this is just what I've gleaned from my research, I'd advise doing your own research too rather than taking a random stranger's word for it :P
[23:07] <arraybolt3> I've seen reports of ADATA drives dying early more often than normal.
[23:07] <Alexion> alright
[23:07] <arraybolt3> And I've personally had a TeamGroup drive die on me and an SSD of theirs be wonky, so I'd avoid them also.
[23:09] <arraybolt3> One thing I will warn, though, stay far far away from any brand that mimics the name of another one, those are almost certainly dangerous. (Things like SamData, which is obviously supposed to be confused with SanDisk.) And any drive that claims to have 1 TB of storage is almost certainly lying.
[23:09] <arraybolt3> *any flash drive, that is.
[23:12] <Alexion> I heard about a scam with an external SSD of 16TB
[23:16] <arraybolt3> Read about that one too. That's one reason to stay with well-known brands, in addition to the better reliability.
[23:20] <Alexion> arraybolt3: I agree with you, but those are also the most expensive ones
[23:22] <arraybolt3> Heh, true. The problem is that the reason the others are cheap is because they die easily. If you have to buy a new drive every three months or more, it will be more expensive than buying one good drive and having it work for a few years.


[07:30] <dholbach> good morning
[07:50] <pitti> Good morning
[07:51] <pitti> apw: "failed to upload" -- no idea; usually for a rebuild test we are just interested in the build logs and in the boolean result (builds/FTBFS); but in this case I think we actually want to keep the binaries and build a live CD out of it for testing the new toolchain
[08:35] <ogra> james_w, are you up already ? all image builds are screwed atm due to mono hangining in NEW (and for omap4 it would be nice if linux-omap4 could be released too)
[08:36] <pitti> I just NEWed mono
[08:36] <ogra> pitti, thanks a lot ... could you do linux-omap4 too ?
[08:37] <ogra> (was only renamed, should be all ok beyond that)
[08:38] <pitti> ogra: you mean the meta package?
[08:38] <ogra> yeah, the binary of that
[08:39] <ogra> it was initially wrongly names linux-ti-omap4 ... our builders dont like that
[08:39] <ogra> *named
[08:39] <pitti> done
[08:39]  * ogra hugs pitti
[08:39]  * pitti hugs you back
[09:23] <smb> pitti, Is it you or cjwatson I would ask to accept Lucid kernel packages in the accept queue? It would be good to have this available in proposed as soon as possible.
[09:23] <pitti> smb: "either", I suppose
[09:24] <pitti> I did some 1.5 hours on SRUs on Friday; I'll do another round somewhere this week, but my OEM stuff piles up, I need to catch up there a bit
[09:24] <smb> Ok. So maybe cjwatson then?
[09:24] <smb> I would like to have that available for people in proposed as soon as possible
[09:25] <cjwatson> I can have a look in a bit; I just started the day
[09:25] <smb> There is a bigger hunk of ext4 in that (which is queued upstream stable as well). But running fs tests looked quite good with the patches
[09:26] <smb> cjwatson, That would be great. Thanks
[10:15] <cjwatson> smb: done
[10:15] <smb> cjwatson, Great. Thanks
[10:23] <Laney> how can I find out why binaries were removed for a package?
[10:23] <Laney> presumably it was FTBFS but I'd like to confirm
[10:23] <jpds> +publishinghistory.
[10:24] <Laney> jpds: where?
[10:24] <Laney> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lhs2tex/+publishinghistory please tell me where to click
[10:24] <Laney> they were removed for lucid
[10:25] <Laney> also, I assume that I'd have no trouble SRUing the fix?
[10:28] <jpds> Laney: The source in dists/lucid/universe/source/Sources.gz but I can't see anything in the corresponding Packages.gz files.
[10:31] <Laney> jpds: the binaries were removed. I don't know how to find out why as it doesn't appear in the publishing history :(
[10:32] <Laney> anyway it does indeed FTBFS so I'll assume it's that
[10:40] <dholbach> TheMuso: I just had a look at bug 601758 and bug 601754 , they look good to me, but it seems like instead of libjack* we'll have libjack-jack2d* soon - it might be worth for you weigh in as well
[10:41] <dholbach> (I don't want to break all the audio world :-))
[11:37] <pitti> seb128: bug 600622  - first maverick retrace :)
[11:37] <seb128> pitti, yeah you! ;-)
[11:37] <pitti> seems it's working
[11:37] <pitti> seb128: I'm just glad that we don't have surprises like gdb breakage again
[11:38] <pitti> I hope we can continue to use the lucid dchroots for a while
[11:38] <seb128> right
[12:08]  * apw notes update-manager -d 'upgrade' button has stopped working ...
[12:09] <pitti> hm, it worked fine last Wednesday when I tested it for alpha-2
[12:10] <soren> apw: How does it not work? I see it here, and I can click it, and the release notes (or whatever you want to call it) come up.
[12:10] <soren> (On a current Lucid system)
[12:11] <apw> soren, for me it says 'Could not find release notes // the server may be overloaded"
[12:11] <apw> and refuses to do anything
[12:11] <soren> Ah.
[12:12] <apw> soren, though i seem to have functional networking ...
[12:12] <apw> and the error is too quick to be a timeout
[12:15] <apw> soren, occuring on more than one clean updated lucid boxes
[12:15] <soren> No clue, sorry.
[12:15] <mvo> apw: are you behind a proxy? is this lucid?
[12:16] <apw> mvo, i have a local proxy (apt-cacher-ng) though i am told that update-managers python apt implementation doesn't use it, this is lucid
[12:17] <mvo> apw: if you could mail/pastebin me the output of DEBUG_UPDATE_MANAGER=1 update-manager -d that would be nice
[12:19] <apw> mvo, sure, its reporting a 403 on DevelReleaseAnnouncement
[12:21] <apw> i'll confirm its not a local proxy thingy
[12:21] <mvo> apw: oh, let me check
[12:21] <apw> i seem to be able to open the URL it mentions on the same machine
[12:22] <mvo> apw: odd, the permissions on the server look correct, let me check further
[12:22] <apw> mvo, seems that update-manager is now using the cacher
[12:22] <mvo> apw: do you have any auth proxy setup?
[12:22] <apw> so i suspect it is its fault somehow
[12:23] <apw> nope, no authentication on the proxu
[12:23] <mvo> apw: aha, that makes sense. the latest lucid-proposed update-manager fixed a issue with the proxy usage
[12:23] <mvo> apw: so the fix may now have broken your setup :/ if apt-cacher-ng does not support fetchting this file
[12:23] <mvo> apw: you should see something in the apt-cache-ng logfile, no?
[12:23] <apw> mvo, i am suspicious its not compatible with apt-cahcer-ng
[12:24] <apw><PHONE_NUMBER>|O|135|<IP_ADDRESS>|
[12:24] <apw> i suspect that usless file is to blame
[12:24] <apw> s/file/line/
[12:24] <mvo> yeah :(
[12:24] <mvo> but it should work if you unset your proxy in the gnome environment, no?
[12:25] <apw> mvo its defined in the /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01proxy file
[12:25] <apw> and only there
[12:25] <mvo> aha, ok. that will be read by u-m
[12:25] <mvo> a good alternative proxy is squid-deb-proxy ;)
[12:26] <apw> mvo, i suspect one of us should work out how to fix it given its a common solution
[12:26] <mvo> ok, let me have a look at the apt-cacher source
[12:26] <apw> i suspect its fixable in the configuration
[12:27] <mvo> aha, cool. if its that simple we should do a sru for this as well
[12:27] <mvo> my knowldege of this package is limited
[12:31] <apw> mvo, mine is too, other than it being very effective (till now)
[12:31] <mvo> :)
[12:33] <TheMuso> dholbach: Thanks, will take a quick peak now, but will have a more indepth look tomorrow morning.
[12:36] <mvo> apw: it seems to have a whitelist for meta-release*
[12:37] <mvo> apw: could you please try adding: "http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/ to ./usr/lib/apt-cacher-ng/ubuntu_mirrors ?
[12:38] <apw> mvo, if i remove the ?xxx bit from the url it seems to work
[12:39] <apw> mvo the file which is erroring is not fetched from changelogs ?
[12:39] <mvo> apw: ohhh, the ?lang= bits?
[12:40] <apw> yep, that may be triggering the borkage
[12:40] <mvo> interessting
[12:44] <TheMuso> dholbach: Actually, these two bugs are syncs and not merges, as they don't yet exist in Ubuntu. They can be brought in without issue. I'll take care of them now.
[12:44] <apw> mvo, ok it does appear we can fix this by updating the VfilePattern
[12:45] <apw> mvo, i guess i should file a bug and put the config update on it ...
[12:51] <mvo> apw: please do
[12:51] <mvo> apw: I'm happy to sponsor it
[12:52] <apw> mvo, be good for me :)
[12:52] <mvo> :)
[12:52] <apw> (as it it will be good for me to do some non-kernel packages)
[12:53] <apw> mvo, ok the ubuntu1 upload for apt-cacher-ng just shows someone mangling the source directly
[12:53] <apw> mvo, should i consider making this a quilt package ?
[12:53] <mvo> apw: yes, feel free
[12:54] <apw> mvo, they have also mangled the Maintainer to XSBC-original-maintainer, doesn't that happen automatically ?
[12:54] <cjwatson> in binaries, yes, but you're supposed to change it in altered source packags
[12:54] <cjwatson> *packages
[12:54] <mvo> apw: jus trun update-maintainer
[12:55] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField
[12:55] <apw> cjwatson, mvo, thanks for the clarificaiton
[12:58] <apw> cjwatson, i am right in thinking that the default for a source 3.0 (quilt) format archive is to have the patches applied, so that its sensible and appropriate to add 'debian/source/format'  as a patch ?
[12:58] <cjwatson> everything except for "as a patch"
[12:58] <cjwatson> as in, you certainly should not have debian/source/format added by a patch under debian/patches/
[12:58] <cjwatson> in general, debian/patches/ should patch upstream source, not debian/
[12:59] <apw> cjwatson, ok, ... makes sense
[12:59] <cjwatson> debian/source/format should just be added directly
[12:59] <cjwatson> hm, my grub2 vesafb test would work better with a kernel that has vesafb built-in
[12:59] <dholbach> TheMuso: one of them is a merge (missing build-dep in main)
[12:59]  * cjwatson upgrades that vm
[13:00] <apw> is there an incantation for making quilt work with a 3.0 format repository, i suspect i need to find the 'kernel engineers guide to debian packaging with quilt'
[13:03] <cjwatson> apw: you need an incantation? :)
[13:04] <apw> the patches arn't in the normal place, so i assume i need at lease QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches
[13:04] <cjwatson> oh, that
[13:05] <cjwatson> apw: /usr/share/doc/quilt/README.source has a suitable .quiltrc
[13:05] <cjwatson> and general advice
[13:05] <cjwatson> the only weird bit is that after you check out a branch corresponding to a 3.0 (quilt) package with patches applied, you have to do a bit of fiddling to get it into a state where you can use quilt
[13:05] <cjwatson> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=572204 has the rune I came up with for that
[13:05] <cjwatson> but after that initial setup step it just works
[13:07] <lool> cjwatson: hola
[13:07] <apw> cjwatson, and one final Q [sic], is there a standard for the header of a patch ?
[13:08] <lool> cjwatson: LP #600988 has a sync request for libxml2, per the email I've sent to ev and you last week; mind having a look and syncing?
[13:08] <cjwatson> sure
[13:08] <cjwatson> apw: http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep3/
[13:08] <lool> apw: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PatchTaggingGuidelines
[13:09] <lool> (links to DEP3)
[13:12] <cjwatson> lool: done
[13:14] <lool> cjwatson: thank you
[13:15] <lool> cjwatson: I dont think you'd actually need my help, but just in case, if you see regressions in migration-assistant and would like me to update the libxml2, let me know
[13:15] <lool> +flags
[13:24] <Amto_res> 59100 Roubai
[13:24] <Amto_res> sory **
[14:07] <ploum> Hello
[14:07] <ploum> could someone help me to find back the archive of the gobby files of last UDS (La Hulpe) ?
[14:07] <ploum> I'm looking for one and cannot find it back
[14:07] <ploum> thanks
[14:07] <seb128> they are on gobby.ubuntu.com
[14:07] <seb128> but the server crasher midweek and they lost some documents
[14:08] <seb128> which one were you trying to get?
[14:09] <ploum> hi seb128
[14:09] <seb128> hey ploum!
[14:09] <ploum> I'm trying to get gtg-desktop
[14:09] <ploum> I had a copy but I lost it
[14:10] <seb128> I don't have this one but maybe ask people who joined the session
[14:10] <seb128> bryce might have a copy
[14:10] <ploum> yep, I've asked on our channel but I wanted to know if there was some kind of "official archives"
[14:11] <seb128> usually gobby.ubuntu.com has the documents but as said there was a crash during UDS and no backup for some of those...
[14:12] <ploum> unfortunatly, gobby port is blocked here so I've to try from somewhere else
[14:12] <ploum> thanks for the information
[14:12] <ploum> I hope to do some productive work this summer :-)
[14:13] <ricotz> hello, could a SRU admin have a look at this proposal - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/docky/+bug/579049
[14:13] <ploum> how is life going on the gnombuntu side ?
[14:14] <seb128> ploum, there is always lot happening on the GNOME side, especially atm with GNOME3 coming ;-)
[14:14] <seb128> so busy but nice to see changes ;-)
[14:18] <ploum> seb128: but those gnome 3 stuffs will be only for 11.4, right ?
[14:19] <ploum> or will be 10.10 a ubuntu remix of 2.30 with some 3.0 libraries ? (like dconf and gsettings)
[14:19] <seb128> we plan to update the platform this cycle
[14:19] <seb128> so yes GNOME3 is for next cycle
[14:19] <seb128> we will get dconf and gsettings in the default install this cycle though
[14:19] <seb128> gtk3 should be in universe or maybe in main but not installed by default
[14:20] <seb128> we decided to do the gtk2 to gtk3 transition on 2 cycles
[14:20] <ploum> indeed, this will be a lot of work for you then !
[14:20] <seb128> yes ;-)
[14:20] <ploum> keep it up, we, users, appreciate it :-)
[14:22] <seb128> ploum, thanks :-)
[14:22] <cjwatson> apw: is anyone working on the fbcon handoff stuff for foundations-m-grub2-boot-framebuffer yet?  I'm approaching the point where I could test it
[14:22] <apw> cjwatson, hrm .. not sure ... will find out
[14:22] <cjwatson> ta
[14:24] <apw> cjwatson, doesn't look like it, i am unclear as to the requirements there, is there some info as to what the hand-off kit even is (i am assuming thats the task)
[14:25] <apw> https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/19287/ <-- is it essentially that patch ?
[14:30] <cjwatson> apw: I think it was linked from the spec wiki
[14:31] <cjwatson> yes, that's the patch, although I listed it as "something like [that]" rather than that exact patch since I know there were comments on it
[14:33] <apw> mvo, ok ... i think i have put together patches and updated source packages for apt-cacher-ng they are on chinstrap:~apw/upload/sign ... apt-cacher-ng-DevelReleaseAnnouncement* are the debdiffs ... perhaps you could review and tell me how bad they are
[14:34] <apw> cjwatson, cool ... yeah i can see the patch needs some love, but thats the missing functionality
[14:35] <cjwatson> apw: regarding Alan's comment we should of course note that we *do* want to use the vt layer
[15:15] <killown> hey ubuntu developers new bug here http://paste.pocoo.org/show/233756/  after execute help('modules') on python interpreter it enable compiz
[15:53] <kaushal> hi
[15:53] <kaushal> Please guide me about my post on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2010-July/004402.html
[15:56] <apw> basically this is about doing a PXE install but wishing to end up with a server kernel installed ^^
[15:58]  * ogra bets there is a preseed value one can set
[15:59] <apw> ogra, that email thread does talk about a preeseed.  kaushal says "i am using a kickstart ks.cfg not preseed" though i am unsure of the specifics
[15:59] <ogra> hmm
[15:59] <elmo> d-i base-installer/kernel/linux/extra-packages-2.6 string
[15:59] <elmo> d-i pkgsel/include string linux-image-server
[15:59] <ogra> perfect ;)
[15:59] <elmo> is what we do, FWIW
[16:00] <ogra> not sure how that translates into kickstart though
[16:00]  * apw has no clue as to how or why we seem to have two methods to essentially control the install
[16:00] <ogra> apw, kickstart is redhat's way of using preseeding
[16:01] <ogra> d-i is (or at least once was) supposed to be able to translate such files
[16:01] <apw> well indeed, but as this is an ubuntu install its not obvious how that relates ...
[16:01] <ogra> into preseeding
[16:01] <apw> ahh i see
[16:02] <ogra> but i have no clue how well that works or if its still supported ... i remember it was introduced around dapper timeframe
[16:02] <un214> I just discovered /tmp isn't ramdrive/swapdrive anymore. Intentional?
[16:02] <cjwatson> still works and is still supported
[16:02] <ogra> great
[16:02] <cjwatson> un214: never has been by default
[16:02] <apw> cjwatson, can you do a kernel switch via the kickstart form ?
[16:02] <ogra> so the var or value the user uses might be wrong
[16:02] <un214> was in jaunty when I first installed
[16:03] <apw> preseed --owner gdm shared/default-x-display-manager select gdm
[16:03] <apw> https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/automatic-install.html
[16:03] <cjwatson> apw: the preseed in the post above should work fine; it looks like kaushal just needs help in using preseeding at all
[16:03] <apw> kaushal, those docs imply you might be able to use 'preseed' to do the same things
[16:04] <cjwatson> oh, and yes, you can use 'preseed' to drop down to raw preseeding from ks.cfg
[16:04] <cjwatson> kaushal: so you want this in ks.cfg:
[16:04] <cjwatson> preseed base-installer/kernel/override-image string linux-server
[16:04] <cjwatson> un214: I don't know how you installed, but I maintain the Ubuntu installer and we have never put /tmp on a RAM-based filesystem
[16:04] <cjwatson> by default
[16:05] <kaushal> ok
[16:05] <kaushal> cjwatson, ok
[16:05] <kaushal> shall i pastebin the ks.cfg file ?
[16:07] <kaushal> cjwatson, where exactly i need to put that line ?
[16:07] <un214> maybe I installed by cloning the livecd
[16:07] <cjwatson> kaushal: no need to pastebin.  just put it anywhere in the main section of the file (i.e. not %packages or %pre or %post)
[16:07] <cjwatson> where you'd put commands like 'url'
[16:07] <un214> that would certainally explain it
[16:08] <kaushal> cjwatson, just after the url ?
[16:09] <cjwatson> kaushal: no, on a line by itself
[16:09] <kaushal> ok
[16:09] <cjwatson> kaushal: just in the same section as all that stuff
[16:10] <kaushal> cjwatson, so that line will tell the installer to install server kernel ?
[16:10] <cjwatson> kaushal: yes
[16:10] <kaushal> great
[16:10] <kaushal> Thanks
[16:11] <kaushal> and run the kickstart as it is
[16:11] <kaushal> I mean using pxe boot
[16:12] <apw> kaushal, i would suggest giving it a try
[16:13] <kaushal> cjwatson, sure
[16:13] <kaushal> Thanks a lot
[16:13] <kaushal> will try and update apw and cjwatson
[16:13] <kaushal> appreciate it
[16:19] <Daviey> cjwatson, Can D-I be made to try to automatically obtain dhcp leases, trying all interfaces until it succeeds?
[16:25] <apw> who does one subscribe to a bug for sponsorship these days ?
[16:25] <pitti> apw: ubuntu-sponsors
[16:25] <cjwatson> Daviey: sorry, I don't know - I suspect not
[16:27] <Daviey> cjwatson, :(, thanks
[16:29] <apw> pitti, ta
[16:52] <cr3> when a release has an end of life date marked as "Month Year" on wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases, is that the 1st of the month, the last of the month or somewhere in between?
[16:53] <cr3> nevermind, there are more specific dates provided lower on the same wiki page
[17:19] <andrusk> "/format pubmsg_channel {pubmsgnick $3 {pubnick $[-9]0}{msgchannel $1}}$2"
[17:20] <tseliot> seb128: your last upload of cairo makes chromium tabs disappear (if you have something like 130 tabs)
[17:22] <tseliot> seb128: maybe rebuilding chromium against the new cairo will fix it
[17:44] <seb128> tseliot, I've no clue about chromium but could be similar to bug #
[17:45] <seb128> https://launchpad.net/bugs/601494
[17:45] <seb128> tseliot, ^
[17:45] <seb128> tseliot, cairo upstream said chromium is buggy in its cairo use though
[17:46] <apw> cjwatson, this fbcon handoff thingy ... does the kernel need to be in a PPA or will a .deb do you ?
[17:47] <cjwatson> apw: .deb is fine
[17:47] <cjwatson> I'll just be shoving it in a VM
[17:47] <tseliot> seb128: my issue i different, all tabs are invisible if there's too many of them with the latest cairo
[17:47] <tseliot> seb128: not just the icon
[17:47] <tseliot> icons
[17:48] <apw> cjwatson, ok cool ... i've gotten the raw patch applied and building, so i'll get you some .debs shortly.  my quick testing here showed it would boot, but as the screen is clear i cannot tell if its doing anything
[17:48] <seb128> tseliot, ok, dunno then
[17:48] <tseliot> ok, I'll investigate the issue
[17:49] <cjwatson> apw: I'll CC you on the GRUB patch I'm about to send
[17:50] <apw> nice thanks
[17:51] <apw> cjwatson, i can see why upstream went 'ick' on this patch... it seems to conflate about 4 things in one
[17:52] <cjwatson> apw: oh, I'm not saying I want *that* patch
[17:52] <cjwatson> I want something that will let fbcon use existing framebuffer contents rather than clearing it
[17:52] <apw> cjwatson, indeed, plan is 'give you that patch' and see if it does what you wanted semantically
[17:52] <cjwatson> doing it as a config option certainly seems nuts
[17:53] <apw> if so, pull it appart and clean up the bits etc.  i think this patch represents about 3 different module parameters
[17:53] <cjwatson> I wonder if it should be done using the flags word that's currently used only to set initial cursor state
[17:53] <apw> cjwatson, yeah i suspect either that or the 'logo' one
[17:53] <cjwatson> global_cursor_default
[17:54] <apw> but i am hoping this one touches all the bits you need, hense just slamming it in for a quick test
[17:55] <cjwatson> f6c06b6807ff9281295989ebad72523865325a4f introduced the nocursor flag, together with a matching module parameter
[17:55] <cjwatson> I quite like the approach of exposing it both ways like that
[17:56] <cjwatson> flags are better for bootloaders that are already programming the boot parameters structure; module parameters are better for users
[18:10] <seb128> ricotz, hi
[18:11] <seb128> ricotz, you maintain the gnome-shell daily ppa right? would you be interested to help maintaining the official version as well?
[18:11] <un214> ubuntu works just fine in a chroot jail -- all I need are bootscripts right?
[18:12] <ricotz> seb128, hi
[18:12] <seb128> ricotz, do you have any change to get libmozjs to work?
[18:12] <seb128> ricotz, I would welcome patches for that for the maverick build
[18:12] <ricotz> seb128, yes , jcastro asked me awhile ago
[18:12] <seb128> it fails right now but I don't really have time to debug it
[18:13] <ricotz> seb128, yes, g-s needs a patch for xulrunner
[18:13] <seb128> I guess you had the same issues in the ppa and solved then by some way
[18:13] <ricotz> seb128, is maverick going to ship gobject-introspection 0.9?
[18:13] <seb128> ricotz, can you send me the change or open a bug with it or work on a debdiff?
[18:13] <chrisccoulson> what fails at the moment?
[18:13] <seb128> chrisccoulson, gnome-shell
[18:13] <chrisccoulson> i suppose i should fix that really ;)
[18:14] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I guess some ld_preload missing for libmozjs somewhere
[18:14] <seb128> but I don't know if it's a gjs or gnome-shell issue
[18:14] <chrisccoulson> oh, that's a gjs issue
[18:14] <seb128> ricotz, dunno really, does it requires gtk3 or changes in libraries?
[18:14] <chrisccoulson> it just needs rebuilding against the latest xulrunner
[18:14] <chrisccoulson> gjs is still looking in the old location for mozjs
[18:15] <seb128> hum
[18:15] <ricotz> it is an g-s issue, there are some changes to the makefiles needed
[18:15] <ricotz> not gjs
[18:15] <chrisccoulson> ricotz - gjs has a rpath pointing to the mozjs location
[18:15] <ricotz> of course gjs needs to be rebuild on every xulrunner release
[18:15] <chrisccoulson> which breaks every time we do an upload
[18:15] <seb128> chrisccoulson, gjs built with <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:15] <chrisccoulson> hmmmm :-/
[18:15] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I think we have several issues there
[18:16] <seb128> I really hate g-s for using gjs and not webkit ;-)
[18:16] <chrisccoulson> we have 1 issue - that gnome-shell is using spidermonkey ;)
[18:16] <ricotz> seb128, gobject-introspection bump the version to 1.1 which breaks every gir dev build
[18:16] <seb128> chrisccoulson, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/51410657/buildlog_ubuntu-maverick-armel.gnome-shell_2.31.2-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[18:17] <seb128> ricotz, well for now I guess we have no issue
[18:17] <seb128> ricotz, I know gobject-introspection format changed but I'm not sure what implication it has, it upgrading would force us to upgrade other components, etc
[18:18] <ricotz> seb128, if g-s going to depend on gjs 0.8 it will be a problem
[18:18] <chrisccoulson> oh, does it try to run gnome-shell during the build?
[18:18] <seb128> chrisccoulson, I'm not sure, I've not tried to understand what it does yet
[18:18] <seb128> ricotz, ok, one thing at a time
[18:18] <chrisccoulson> yeah, it looks like it. it's just missing a LD_LIBRARY_PATH somewhere
[18:18] <seb128> ricotz, could you send me your g-s build patch at some point when you have time for it?
[18:18] <ricotz> seb128, http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/233809/
[18:19] <seb128> ricotz, can you drop me an email with that diff or open a bug?
[18:19] <seb128> will make easier for tracking, thanks!
[18:19] <seb128> ricotz, or don't bother, I will try to do that today
[18:20] <seb128> ricotz, hum, gjs 0.8 will require a new gobject-introspection then?
[18:20] <ricotz> seb128, yes gjs-git doesnt build with 0.6.14
[18:21] <seb128> do you know what debian plans to do?
[18:21] <ricotz> sorry, no
[18:21] <seb128> I need to understand what they change
[18:21] <seb128> and what impacts that will have on the versions we need to ship
[18:21] <seb128> since we will not ship gtk3 this cycle
[18:21] <ricotz> this needs many changes
[18:22] <seb128> well there is the update
[18:22] <seb128> and the rebuild of all the packages shipping a gir
[18:22] <ricotz> for example, gtk+2.0 ships a precomiled gir version 1.0 which break the build with a gir 1.1
[18:22] <seb128> with corresponding build and packaging change for the abi version change
[18:23] <ricotz> yes, i guess it need a bump the names to gir1.1-PACKAGE
[18:23] <seb128> would it be easy to have a gir 1.1 compatible gtk gir on 2.22?
[18:24] <ricotz> seb128, i hope it is, i am trying to do this in my ppa
[18:24] <seb128> ricotz, ok, let me know how it goes
[18:24] <ricotz> seb128, i think for gtk+2.0 needs a "autoreconf ..." like gconf has
[18:25] <seb128> gtk has an autoreconf patch
[18:25] <seb128> it needs to be updated if you do changes to the makefiles or configure
[18:25] <ricotz> yes, but i doesnt rebuild the gir file
[18:25] <seb128> well then we would need to update the copy
[18:26] <seb128> or to make gtk build its gir
[18:26] <seb128> could you try to figure if upstream plans to update gtk 2.22 gir to work with the new abi
[18:26] <ricotz> yes, this is what i will try to do
[18:27] <seb128> thanks
[18:27] <ricotz> i might do this
[18:27] <seb128> I will think about the transition to the new gobject-introspection
[18:27] <seb128> I will keep you updated on what we do
[18:27] <ricotz> seb128, so atk, pango and so on needs updates too
[18:27] <seb128> but we will not hurry into it
[18:27] <seb128> I need to understand the number of changes involved
[18:28] <seb128> and if that will lead to something stable in this cycle
[18:29] <ricotz> seb128, the transition back from the centralized gir build in gir-repository leads to this problem that now every package needs be updated with such a change
[18:29] <seb128> well I'm fine doing that work
[18:29] <ricotz> seb128, is there progress in packaging gtk+3.0?
[18:29] <seb128> I just want to be sure it doesn't force us to pull gtk3 in or something
[18:30] <seb128> ricotz, not that I know no, it's not a priority for us right now and I didn't check what was the status in debian
[18:31] <ricotz> in some point g-s will need gtk+3.0, but they are keeping a fallback to gtk 2.22
[18:31] <seb128> nice
[18:31] <ricotz> not sure how long this will last
[18:31] <ricotz> seb128, also dconf needs packaging
[18:31] <ricotz> g-s depends on it
[18:31] <seb128> dconf is packaged
[18:32] <seb128> it's in universe for a while and has been accepted for main
[18:32] <ricotz> i think the current dconf is not the "right one"
[18:32] <ricotz> dconf is not python, it is written in valac
[18:33] <ricotz> the current version is 0.4
[18:33] <seb128> you want d-conf
[18:33] <ricotz> http://git.gnome.org/browse/dconf
[18:33] <seb128> ricotz, I know what d-conf is
[18:34] <seb128> ricotz, see libdconf0
[18:34] <seb128> Version: 0.4.1-0ubuntu1
[18:34] <seb128> Description: Simple key-based configuration system
[18:34] <ricotz> oh, sorry
[19:24] <lex79> cjwatson: when you have time can you add akonadi, soprano and koffice to kubuntu-dev packages? thanks
[20:00] <Riddell> lex79: the kubuntu-dev access list isn't a simple list of packages, it's based on some criteria of seeds which seems to not align perfectly with what we'd expect, cjwatson is aware of the issue and has promised to resolve it
[20:01] <lex79> Riddell: I know, some days ago he added meta-kde, pkg-kde-tools and -workspace to the list when I asked
[20:01] <Riddell> oh really?  that's handy
[20:02] <lex79> yes, just ask politely :)
[20:19] <johanbr> Hi. The revtex style in texlive-publishers 2009-7 doesn't work properly. A sync of the version from Debian Unstable would be much appreciated. See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/texlive-extra/+bug/592721


[04:14] <White_Light> 4.8.0-30-generic appears to have usb issues on my machine - is this even a supported kernel or is 4.4 the only thing supported on 16.04?
[04:15] <White_Light> Upstream 4.8 and 4.9 work perfectly
[12:05] <rbasak> Should one expect exynos_defconfig to have CONFIG_IP_MULTICAST? Because it doesn't, libnss-mdns regressed for me between v4.2 and v4.9. Using Trusty userspace, and the regression was in "dcd87999 igmp: net: Move igmp namespace init to correct file" by adding additional conditionals on CONFIG_IP_MULTICAST.
[13:00] <smb> rbasak, sounds like something that just may slip unnoticed without hw for testing. Did you file a bug about it already?
[13:04] <rbasak> smb: no. I wasn't sure if would be considered a bug or not. It's mainline, not Ubuntu.
[13:06] <rbasak> wasn't sure> hence my question.
[13:06] <smb> rbasak, yes, just the way you describe it would need us to adapt the config. Not sure from the top of my head whether multicast as option was turned off deliberately or just happened to be no as default and the change should have also made the default a y
[13:07] <rbasak> It happened to be no as default.
[13:07] <rbasak> (it still is)
[13:07] <rbasak> Enabling it fixes the problem
[13:09] <smb> rbasak, ok so maybe something we should do while knocking at upstream's door. All better with a bug report somewhere.
[13:10] <rbasak> smb: you want a bug report for Ubuntu? I didn't think you'd care about exynos_defconfig (for my Samsung ARM Chromebook).
[13:10] <sforshee> stgraber: henrix was asking me some questions about the patches to enable fuse userns mounts by default in xenial, whether we need to worry about breaking older lxd versions, and should we encode that in the packaging. What's your opinion?
[13:14] <smb> rbasak, hm... not sure tbh
[13:18] <ppisati> rbasak: yes please, fill a bug
[14:05] <stgraber> sforshee: given that it only affects a tiny bit of LXD (injecting new devices in a running container), I think we're fine with not worrying too much about it and just pushing the kernel SRU as normal
[14:06] <stgraber> sforshee: anyone who files a bug about an outdated LXD is asked to update to the latest anyway so that will be fine. Also you don't want some systems not updating their kernels because the admin somehow pinned LXD to an old version
[14:16] <sforshee> stgraber: thanks
[14:16] <sforshee> henrix: ^
[14:16] <henrix> sforshee: stgraber: awesome, thanks for clarifying
[16:48] <mitya57> Hi, can someone please look at my patch in bug 1215411? Without this I have to use the 5-year-old cpufreq library in gnome-applets instead of the modern Linux API…
[16:48] <ubot5`> bug 1215411 in linux (Ubuntu Zesty) "libcpupower.so is not installed from linux-tools (saucy)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1215411
[17:21] <mitya57> ^^ Ignore that, I forgot to subscribe to the bug and missed the response
[17:23] <mitya57> Sorry for the noise


[08:59] <mwhudson> jdstrand: thank you!
[09:24] <mwhudson> so is dput-ng just completely broken in ubuntu?
[09:29] <schopin> Not *completely*, just for you :)
[09:50] <mwhudson> i think you need to purge dput rather than just remove it first? but i actually want to keep my configuration...
[09:51] <mwhudson> anyway i've come up with an absurd workflow that may have let me do what i needed...
[10:11] <tumbleweed> dput-ng being broken by old dput config files is something I've heard of before
[10:17] <enr0n> Can a core dev please retry these autopkgtests? retry-autopkgtest-regressions --blocks openssh -s kinetic | grep -v piuparts
[11:02] <Unit193> Yay!  Not the only dput user. \o/
[11:11] <ahasenack_> cjwatson: hi, just got this bug filed against debian-archive-keyring (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-archive-keyring/+bug/1994013), and found a comment you made on a similar bug from 2018, asking a similar thing
[11:11] -ubottu:#ubuntu-devel- Launchpad bug 1994013 in debian-archive-keyring (Ubuntu Bionic) "Old keyring makes deboostrap Debian stable not possible in Bionic" [Undecided, New]
[11:11] <ahasenack_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-archive-keyring/+bug/1752656 being that other one
[11:11] -ubottu:#ubuntu-devel- Launchpad bug 1752656 in ubuntu-keyring (Ubuntu) "Please SRU archive keyrings to older releases" [Undecided, New]
[11:11] <ahasenack_> does your comment about xenial also apply to bionic?
[11:16] <ginggs> enr0n: looking...
[11:20] <enr0n> ginggs: thanks!
[11:20] <ginggs> .
[11:46] <cjwatson> ahasenack_: I'm not sure, sorry - gpg is confusing and apparently I didn't specify (probably because I only cared about xenial at the time).  I suspect the only way to find out is to experiment.
[11:46] <ahasenack_> ok
[11:46] <cjwatson> ahasenack_: I vaguely remember a problem with bionic's Ed25519 support in gpg but not sure.
[11:47] <ahasenack_> my other concern was if a newer version of the keyring would expire very old keys, and would make bootstrapping something like oldoldstable problematic
[11:47] <ahasenack_> but I guess not


[00:17] <elky> pleia2, good job on the blueprint. Did you make a wiki page for it?
[00:18] <czajkowski> you dont need to make a wiki page for a bp
[00:18] <elky> for discussion.
[00:18] <pleia2> we always make a RoadMap page to go along with it
[00:18] <pleia2> haven't done that yet
[00:19] <czajkowski> ok. you dont have to and in most cases roadmaps aren't being used
[05:19] <elky> Heh. Now the article I was quoted in has been quoted by another article which is responding to an article from Monday by a different journo for the same publication: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/364922/reports_linux_desktop_death_premature/?fp=4&fpid=1968336438
[05:19] <rww> *facepalm* I loaded that URL and ctrl-F "elky" to find the quote
[05:20] <maco> haha
[05:22] <elky> rww, lol
[05:39]  * nigelb ^5 rww
[05:39] <nigelb> I was tempted to do that too.


[11:41] <froud> shuks what is the command to convert windows line feeds to unix
[11:57] <froud> what channel are the translators on please?
[11:59] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:59] <Burgundavia> our translators?
[11:59] <froud> Any translators
[11:59] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:59] <Burgundavia> #rosetta might have some
[11:59] <froud> I got a PO file created on windows
[12:00] <froud> and the line feeds etc are borked
[12:00] <froud> nobody at #rosetta
[12:04] <froud> Burgundavia: I wonder why the windows tools dont detect the unix line feeds and preserve them. I know the unix tool chain can be configured to preserve them windows structures.
[12:06] <Burgundavia> because windows is blinkered by ideology
[12:06] <Burgundavia> they cannot admit that *nix exists
[12:06] <froud> :-)
[12:06] <Burgundavia> and they don't want to take the time/money to bother to make something interoperate
[12:07] <Burgundavia> all that work is usually done by FLOSS people
[12:07] <Burgundavia> actually, it is amazing how much work goes into making FLOSS be as application/platform neutral as possible
[12:07] <froud> yeah, seems we embrace windows but not the other way around
[12:07] <Burgundavia> such as the Gnumeric people removing Gnome specific stuff
[12:08] <Burgundavia> so that they can share code with the Koffice people
[12:08] <froud> agreed
[12:08] <froud> keep it open all the way or dont do it is my motto
[01:54] <froud> whose awake
[01:54] <froud> anyone?
[01:55] <Seveas> i am :)
[01:56] <froud> Hi
[01:56] <Seveas> hi :)
[01:56] <froud> I need a community input to a subject
[01:56] <Seveas> which subject?
[01:57] <froud> I trust everyone here know what the LPI is?
[01:57] <Seveas> hmm, i don't...
[01:57] <froud> http://www.lpi.org/
[01:58] <froud> I have a vision to develop instructor lead training materials
[01:58] <froud> for Ubuntu
[01:58] <froud> now there are a number of course out there that say they are aligned to the lpi
[01:58] <Seveas> sounds good
[01:59] <froud> and lpi is distro neutral
[01:59] <froud> I wonder if it is possible to develop LPI/Ubuntu Materials
[01:59] <froud> the lpi part must be neutral
[01:59] <Seveas> i think you cannot stay completely distro-neutral
[02:00] <Seveas> but lpi+ubuntu specific parts sounds like a nice idea to me
[02:00] <froud> I wonder how others would approach this problem
[02:00] <froud> my approach is to merge the two
[02:00] <froud> others say do them seperate
[02:00] <Seveas> i think you should discuss it on the ubuntu-doc mailinglist
[02:01] <froud> like do lpi and then ubuntu specifics
[02:01] <froud> yes and no
[02:01] <froud> first want some thoughts
[02:01] <froud> from a small group
[02:02] <froud> what approach do you think would be best
[02:02] <froud> remember the students will have ubuntu installed
[02:02] <froud> so the notes must be ubuntu, but also satisfy the requirement
[02:02] <froud> that they can be used to pass the LPI
[02:03] <Seveas> how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to package management?
[02:03] <froud> exactly
[02:03] <froud> lpi covers deb and rpm
[02:03] <Seveas> ah
[02:04] <Seveas> how would you try to stay distro-neutral when it comes to desktop environment?
[02:04] <froud> lpi does not really cover desktop
[02:04] <Seveas> ouch
[02:04] <froud> just the cli stuff
[02:05] <Seveas> that's bad
[02:05] <froud> seperate or merged, this is my debate
[02:05] <froud> I like the merged approach
[02:05] <froud> since students learn linline
[02:05] <froud> take packaging
[02:05] <Seveas> definitely merge it if lpi covers only cli
[02:06] <froud> why wait until the end to teach how to use deb
[02:06] <froud> lpi is aimed at sys admins
[02:06] <froud> some basics about installing desktops
[02:06] <froud> and stuff
[02:06] <Seveas> even sysadmins should now gui
[02:06] <froud> but not abouthow to use the desktop
[02:06] <Seveas> they should be able to install & maintain it
[02:07] <froud> that is about all lpi covers
[02:07] <Seveas> hmm, i'll take a closer look at lpi
[02:08] <froud> would there be any benefit in developing an additional part to an lpi certified course that just covers the ubuntu specific stuff
[02:08] <froud> on the one hand
[02:08] <froud> the seperate specific approach is shorter
[02:08] <froud> but the merged approach is better for the learning curve
[02:08] <Seveas> indeed
[02:09] <froud> would the seperate approach create problems in the classroom
[02:09] <Seveas> well, try to find some more opinions, i'd say go for the merged approach, but i'm not even part of the doc-team
[02:09] <froud> you are now ;-)
[02:10] <froud> intersting if you see yourself as not part of the team, what are you doing on the channel, you have been here for a few weeks now
[02:10] <Seveas> not really
[02:10] <froud> just like our company :-)
[02:10] <Seveas> i'm here since only a few days
[02:11] <froud> Ah, you want to contribute?
[02:11] <Seveas> just for reading along with the doc team
[02:11] <Seveas> i'm translating the ubuntu website
[02:11] <froud> ok
[02:11] <froud> in rosetta
[02:11] <Seveas> www.ubuntulinux.nl is my dutch translation
[02:11] <Seveas> no, i started before rosetta was operational
[02:12] <froud> how you gonna manage the updates to that
[02:12] <Seveas> well, not
[02:12] <froud> Hmmm
[02:12] <Seveas> i'll merge it with the official website when the infrastructure is there
[02:13] <froud> and then how will people keep track of all the updates in all the languages?
[02:13] <Seveas> but so far, i'm translating bits and pieces of the pages
[02:13] <froud> wheew, hard work dude
[02:13] <Seveas> froud, i have been told that there is no easy way yet to integrate it in the official site
[02:13] <Seveas> so that's why i'm doing it this way
[02:13] <froud> OK, you mean there is a way to move the translated text over
[02:14] <Seveas> the engine behind my site is xml based, i can easily transform the content to any format needed
[02:14] <froud> my concern is what happens when english pages change,how will translators keep track of all those changes
[02:14] <froud> Hmmm XML, tell me more
[02:14] <froud> what is the engine
[02:15] <Seveas> right now i do it the hard way: once in a while i check the pages for changes
[02:15] <froud> I c
[02:15] <Seveas> home-made engine
[02:15] <Seveas> very flexible
[02:15] <froud> Do cyou have an engine for taking docbook and doing it
[02:16] <froud> we need a round trip solution
[02:16] <Seveas> www.kaarsemaker.net www.ubuntulinux.nl nuts.okkernoot.net/~dennis/uvasite are run by the same engine (with symlinks). Only config/template and content are different
[02:16] <froud> ok
[02:16] <froud> so the xml is valid to what dtd
[02:16] <Seveas> no, it cannot take docbook
[02:16] <Seveas> my own dtd
[02:16] <froud> arrghh
[02:16] <Seveas> sorry :)
[02:17] <froud> no its ok
[02:17] <Seveas> but it's pluggable, so i can 'easily' implement other DTD's
[02:17] <froud> we are looking for a wayto round trip from wiki to docbook and back
[02:17] <Seveas> ah ok
[02:17] <froud> problem is it is easy to go docbook to moin
[02:17] <Seveas> wiki == moinmoin?
[02:17] <froud> not so easy the other way around
[02:17] <Seveas> why not?
[02:18] <froud> how to mark <filename>
[02:18] <Seveas> wiki translates moin to html, why couldn't one be able to translate to docbook?
[02:18] <froud> not so easy
[02:18] <Seveas> (i have never used docbook by the way)
[02:18] <froud> I have a solution
[02:18] <froud> but it needs java
[02:19] <Seveas> :|
[02:19] <froud> authors editing in web based xml editor
[02:19] <froud> relax ng
[02:19] <Seveas> hmm
[02:19] <froud> used lenya
[02:19] <froud> lenya.apache.org
[02:19] <Seveas> i must say that i'm not fond of java applets for editing
[02:20] <froud> extended the bitflux editor to support docbook
[02:20] <froud> slow though
[02:20] <froud> I must find time to compile the dtd into a binary to make it faster
[02:21] <froud> loading over 400 elements is not an option
[02:21] <Seveas> ouch
[02:21] <Seveas> indeed
[02:21] <froud> well not ove rthe web
[02:21] <froud> on my dsl it takes 4 minutes to load the editor and the dtd
[02:21] <froud> not good
[02:21] <Seveas> :|
[02:22] <froud> perhaps if I make it a binary file then only the first load will be long
[02:22] <froud> and subsequent sessions will be faster
[02:22] <Seveas> yeah, but no one wants to wait 4 minutes for a wikipage. Not even once
[02:22] <froud> providing that the user does not wipe the cache
[02:22] <Seveas> and never trust caches :)
[02:22] <froud> exactly
[02:22] <froud> the other option is to get the binary installed
[02:23] <froud> or to change the editor to look for an installed version of the dtd
[02:23] <Seveas> but then everyone needs to install something to edit (or even watch?) the wiki
[02:23] <froud> took the words from my mouth :-)
[02:24] <Seveas> i don't see either of these plans working actually
[02:24] <Seveas> the wiki needs to be easily accessible
[02:24] <Seveas> or you'll scare people away
[02:24] <froud> yeah, well if it was easy everyone would be doing it :-)
[02:24] <froud> it's a nice problem though
[02:24] <Seveas> so the option you need is moin2docbook
[02:25] <Seveas> do you have a pointer to a docbook howto, i want to look into it
[02:25] <froud> that works to a point
[02:25] <froud> docbook.sf.net
[02:25] <froud> moin2docbook is on the docbook wiki site
[02:25] <Seveas> for which purpose do you need the docbook?
[02:26] <froud> the docs we package with the distro
[02:26] <froud> the ones you see under yelp are docbook
[02:26] <Seveas> ahh, so the moin2docbook is a process that does not have to be extremely fast
[02:27] <froud> problem with moin2docbook is that it is not able to do it consistantly
[02:27] <Seveas> hmm
[02:27] <froud> and so you have overhead
[02:27] <froud> you must fix the resulting docbook
[02:27] <Seveas> ouch
[02:27] <froud> each time
[02:28] <froud> that's why I look to edit the xml under the browser
[02:28] <Seveas> is that a problem with the implementation, or a general unsolvable problem due to the fact that moin is not that structured?
[02:28] <froud> the second one
[02:28] <Seveas> hmm
[02:28] <froud> the permutations are endless
[02:28] <froud> eric raymond has some tools
[02:28] <Seveas> have you ever looked at general rewriting languages like m4 or asf+sdf for doing this?
[02:28] <froud> he also warns of this problem
[02:28] <froud> no have you got some links
[02:29] <froud> like you say, people want easy editing
[02:29] <froud> but we want structure
[02:30] <froud> the two are at opposite ends of the same stick
[02:30] <froud> but the stick is dry and bringing them together will break the stick
[02:30] <froud> that's why I go for editing xml under the browser
[02:30] <froud> WYSIOO
[02:30] <froud> what you see is one option
[02:31] <Seveas> asf+sdf is a rewriting formalism that can be used for generalized parsing and rewriting, it's developed at the CWI (center for mathematics and computer science) in amsterdam, NL. I have some experience with it now, you can find it at: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/sen1/twiki/bin/view/SEN1/MetaEnvironment
[02:32] <Seveas> m4 is the gnu macro stuff used in (oa) autoconf/automake: http://www.gnu.org/software/m4/
[02:32] <froud> Hmm, just reading hang on
[02:37] <Seveas> from my experience with general rewriting, i know that these things should be solvable
[02:37] <froud> yes, but code is consistant, moin is not :-)
[02:37] <Seveas> it's just that it's guite an undertaking to write for instance an asf+sdf moin2docbook translator
[02:38] <froud> yes
[02:38] <Seveas> well, this can handle inconsistencies too
[02:38] <froud> whew, it's a nice idea, but gee whizz
[02:38] <Seveas> :)
[02:38] <Seveas> if i'm in a geeky mood, i'll try playing with it
[02:38] <froud> sure
[02:39] <froud> let us know if you find a solution
[02:39] <Burgundavia> Seveas, you put yourself up for op on #ubuntu at the next CC meeting?
[02:39] <Seveas> yes Burgundavia
[02:39] <Seveas> i'm DennisKaarsemaker
[02:39] <Burgundavia> Seveas, ok, cheers
[11:41] <mdke> hi y'all
[11:51] <carthik__> hi, is there a quick guide on moin moin formatting anywhere?
[11:51] <mdke> yep
[11:51] <mdke> carthik__, on our wiki there is one
[11:52] <mdke> good place to start is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HelpOnEditing
[11:52] <mdke> that should link you to some other good stuff
[11:52] <carthik> mdke, thanks, I was looking to flesh out a few things on the FAQ page
[11:52] <mdke> which page is that?
[11:53] <carthik> mdke, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
[11:53] <carthik> bad formatting
[11:53] <carthik> and I learnt a few things setting up my printer, so will flesh that section out a little
[11:53] <mdke> gosh that document sucks
[11:54] <mdke> best thing is to find a page directly on the topic you're interested in (such as the printer)
[11:54] <carthik> mdke, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MoinMoinMarkupExamples does not deal with un-wikified, or pre-formatted text
[11:54] <mdke> or make one ;)
[11:54] <carthik> mdke, there is no printer page
[11:54] <mdke> carthik, what do you mean by un-wikified or pre-formatted text?
[11:54] <carthik> and I need to paste code samples, that are pre-formatted
[11:55] <mdke> carthik, that is done using {{{ tags
[11:55] <mdke> then }}}
[11:55] <mdke> its on that page
[11:55] <mdke> oh crap that page has been heavily edited since i last used it
[11:55] <carthik> mdke, look for the section titled : How can I share my printer on my LAN?
[11:55] <mdke> carthik, tell you what, use this page instead
[11:55] <carthik> on the FAQ page
[11:56] <mdke> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/MoinMoin
[11:56] <carthik> the formatting sucks, for the <Location> ... </Location> section.
[11:57] <mdke> carthik, ok forget about the first link i gave you, someone has ruined it, use the udu.wiki.ubuntu page
[11:57] <carthik> mdke, that site you linked to - does not allow me to view source
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, edit it, that is
[11:58] <carthik> no permissions, it says
[11:58] <mdke> you logged in?
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, you should really be using mediawiki - I would have jumped right in to help
[11:58] <mdke> carthik, not my decision
[11:58] <mdke> are you the guy who posted on the list recently?
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, I dont want to create an account at the UDU wiki now.
[11:58] <carthik> mdke, no I am not the guy
[11:59] <mdke> carthik, i think the accounts are twinned
[11:59] <mdke> hmm no maybe not
[11:59] <carthik> mdke, it is so difficult for a random newbie like me to edit a page, this does away with the benefit of a wiki, IMHO
[11:59] <mdke> we need better docs for the markup i suppose
[12:00] <mdke> should have locked down the HelpOnEditing page
[12:00] <mdke> carthik, we are moving wikis soon, hopefully the new one will be better organised
[12:01] <carthik> mdke, cool
[12:01] <mdke> carthik, still moin tho
[12:01] <carthik> mdke, I work almost full time at http://codex.wordpress.org which is a mediawiki wiki - life is much better without CamelCase
[12:02] <carthik> Try reading a phrase with 5 words, written in CamelCase, and you'll see the difficulty:)
[12:02] <carthik> mdke, thank you, you have been extremely helpful - please dont think I am dissing anything here :)
[12:02] <mdke> carthik, i understand your criticisms


[13:24]  * PaulW2U counts 6 summaries to do later if no one else does them first
[16:19] <tsimonq2> PaulW2U: Well a decision needs to be made re: Ubuntu Budgie, right? That leaves one summary...
[16:19] <tsimonq2> PaulW2U: Maybe I'm understanding the comment chain between you and pleia2 wrong?
[16:42] <PaulW2U> tsimonq2: three to go, one budgie (to be decided), one planet and the snappy one
[16:43] <PaulW2U> I'm busy at the moment so if you want to tackle them ....
[16:43] <PaulW2U> otherwise I'll be back later
[21:07] <PaulW2U> all summaries completed


[13:44] <danboid> If I want to backup and restore my juju controller onto another machine (container) does it need to be the same version of Ubuntu & Juju or is it recommended to restore to the latest LTS Ubuntu, if a newer version is available? My controller is currently running on 18.04
[14:03] <manadart> danboid: The best way to do this is to bootstrap a new controller, then migrate your model(s) to it.
[14:04] <manadart> https://juju.is/docs/migrating-models
[14:10] <danboid> manadart, OK thanks!
[14:11] <manadart> danboid: No problem. One request; if you read the docs and find they are wanting, please let us know using the link at the bottom. We are trying to improve this area.
[14:11] <danboid> manadart, Will do!
[14:12] <manadart> There should be no problem bootstrapping a newer Ubuntu series either, providing Juju supports it. 20.04 should be fine, for example.
[15:03] <danboid> OK great, thanks


[18:56] <scott_ev> morning, I slept late and am getting ready to write some supparies
[19:01] <holstein> scott_ev: are you working from https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ZbtFHQq6uMj7iuRLd11VH8V5Uc_FA0IfgiRUcbMbQk/edit ?
[19:10] <scott_ev> yes
[19:11] <scott_ev> I'm still having coffee so I haven't started yet
[19:12] <holstein> scott_ev: im putting my nick in when i start reading one to summarize :)
[19:14] <scott_ev> holstein: that's what I was thinking - I just hadn't asked yet if that was standard
[19:15] <holstein> scott_ev: whatever you think to make sure we dont duplicate efforts
[19:15] <scott_ev> holstein: then I'll follow your lead and do the dame
[19:15] <scott_ev> same
[19:17] <holstein> scott_ev: :)
[19:31] <holstein> well, i knocked out a few.. gotta run..
[19:31] <holstein> o/
[19:47] <scott_ev> pleia2: ping
[19:47] <scott_ev> or akgraner or anyone that can answer a question
[19:49] <scott_ev> before I do many summaries could someone look at the 2 I've done, please?
[19:58] <holstein> i think "Canonical’s plans to merge Ubuntu Edge, the Ubuntu SDK, with thinking from the Edge Project by April 2014 are taking shape." is a tough sentence
[19:58] <holstein> its not "bad" though...
[20:00] <holstein> for example.. OBconf-QT has a few things not working but is nearly fully functional while Gnumeric 1.12.6 will be available in a few days.
[20:00] <holstein> i might just say "obconf-qte is nearly functional, which Gnu..."
[20:01] <holstein> scott_ev: looks good, though
[20:01] <holstein> there is another step after summaries...
[20:01] <scott_ev> OK
[20:02] <holstein> "canonical plans to merge.." and then list all that is being merged and say " ..by april 2014".. whatever
[20:03] <holstein> maybe..
[20:03] <scott_ev> k
[20:03] <holstein> anyways.. im out the door.. thanks for your time scott_ev !
[21:19] <scott_ev> taking a break