[00:20] <spiv> Gar, gnome-terminal just crashed.
[00:21] <lifeless> spiv: uxterm FTW
[01:09] <mneptok> Terminator treats me right.
[01:09] <mneptok> but then, terminal emulator religious wars have nearly as many victims as text editor conflicts.
[01:10] <fullermd> Yeah.    Obviously   :)
[01:12] <mneptok> how linear. how pedestrian. ;)
[01:13] <fullermd> Well, I don't own a bicycle, so...
[01:13] <lifeless> terminator is nice
[01:13] <lifeless> it needs less gnome widget embedding love though
[01:29] <sevenseeke1> I installed bzr via easy_install (1.8), when I try to branch (even with bzr itself -> bzr branch lp:bzr) I get: bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: please check connectivity and permissions (and try -Dhpss if further diagnosis is required)
[01:29] <sevenseeke1> HPSS calls: 1 <bzrlib.smart.medium.SmartSSHClientMedium object at 0x85d7f2c>
[01:31] <sevenseeke1> my ~/.bazaar/bazaar.conf only contains my launchpad name
[01:32] <lifeless> sevenseeker_: try an http url
[01:33] <lifeless> sevenseeker_: like http://bazaar-vcs.org/bzr/bzr.dev
[01:33] <spiv> sevenseeker_: do you get "Permission denied (publickey)" as well?
[01:34] <sevenseeker_> hmmm, no I don't
[01:35] <sevenseeker_> although it is going veeeeery sloooooow
[01:37] <lifeless> sevenseeker_: ok, if http is working and lp: isn't
[01:37] <lifeless> sevenseeker_: then https:// is probably firewalled on your machine/network
[01:37] <sevenseeker_> hmmm, this is new
[01:37] <lifeless> sevenseeker_: (or ssh: is firewalled, if you have done bzr lp-login)
[01:38] <sevenseeker_> I wonder if something updated that interferred
[01:38] <sevenseeker_> I greatly appreciate the help
[01:40] <sevenseeker_> ok, I checked with some https sites and I connect fine (through the web that is)
[01:41] <sevenseeker_> netstat -l isn't showing anything that I am aware of that would interfere either
[01:42] <lifeless> sevenseeker_: try 'ssh bazaar.launchpad.net'
[01:42] <lifeless> sevenseeker_: if that gives a network error (rather than an authorisation error) then you have a networking issue
[01:42] <sevenseeker_> just 'Permission denied (publickey).'
[01:42] <lifeless> ok
[01:43] <lifeless> your network is fine
[01:43] <lifeless> now try ssh<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:44] <sevenseeker_> same thing
[01:44] <lifeless> ok
[01:44] <lifeless> you haven't told lp your ssh key :>
[01:44] <spiv> lifeless: "ssh `bzr<EMAIL_ADDRESS>;)
[01:44] <sevenseeker_> must have done that with another 'puter, I hope that is all it is :)
[01:45] <spiv> FWIW, I just bumped up the importance of https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/238776, which is the bug about how bzr's error messages in this case aren't as helpful as they could be.
[01:46] <sevenseeker_> cool, thank you... registering now
[02:54] <fullermd> poolie_: I understood that a lot of bzr ops did things in a staging dir under .bzr/ and then rename()'d over into the final location (which would fail hard across file systems)
[02:59] <lifeless> fullermd: splitting .bzr/ over mounts is not supported in any way
[02:59] <fullermd> I mean to/from the WT.
[02:59] <lifeless> fullermd: splitting a tree over mounts will also fail with tree transform which does lots of mv's
[02:59] <lifeless> because it writes to .bzr/checkout/limbo and mv's from there
[03:00] <fullermd> Yeah, 's what I thought.
[03:00] <fullermd> (re bug 286268)
[03:00] <lifeless> but perhaps mv on some platforms will work cross fs
[03:00] <lifeless> by copying and rming
[03:06] <kingfishr> If I'm working with a partner, and he's branched the project and made changes, then to get those changes _I_ need to merge?
[03:07] <kingfishr> i.e. am I correct in saying that to work in the method, both people need ftp/ssh/.../ access to the other's computer?
[03:07] <kingfishr> s/the method/this method/
[03:07] <fullermd> Well, both people would need access to the other's branch.
[03:08] <kingfishr> right
[03:08] <fullermd> That could as easily be a copy of your branch you push somewhere "as often as necessary", as your local copy of the branch.
[03:08] <kingfishr> fullermd, I don't follow you
[03:09] <fullermd> Well, I could give you access to my system, and you could "bzr merge bzr+ssh://fullermd/home/fullermd/whatever"
[03:09] <kingfishr> is there a way for him to push his changes to me instead of me merging with him?
[03:09] <fullermd> Or I could push a copy of my branch up to somewebserver, and you could "bzr merge http://somewebserver/whatever", or any other step around.
[03:10] <fullermd> If you gave him write access he could push over your branch.  That's usually not as good an idea for various reasons.
[03:10] <fullermd> He could as above plunk a copy of his branch somewhere public
[03:10] <fullermd> He could use 'bzr send' to email you a bundle of his changes which you could merge from as if it were a branch.
[03:10] <kingfishr> hmm
[03:11] <lifeless> kingfishr: there are three ways he can give you his content:
[03:11] <lifeless>  - he can mail you a bundle
[03:11] <fullermd> Depends on details of how you want to work and where the two of you can "meet up" logically.
[03:11] <lifeless>  - he can put them in a branch you can access (e.g. on http, or on launchpad, or on an NFS share somewhere, or on your machine somewhere)
[03:12] <lifeless>  - he can push them directly into a common branch (which requires a common branch you can both write to, just like cvs/svn)
[03:13]  * lamont wonders when bzr_1.8-1~$mumble will be available
[03:13] <lamont> ditto for bzrtools>1.7.0-1
[03:13] <lamont> referring, of course, to https://edge.launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive
[03:13] <lamont> s/edge.//
[03:13] <lamont> stupid edge urls
[03:13] <lifeless> lamont: poolie is working on it
[03:13] <lamont> cool
[03:14] <lamont> once it's there, I have a dance card to fill
[03:14] <kingfishr> let me give you more context: I'm working right next to a guy on a project, we're both making changes, and so far he's been merging changes from me via ftp. Now I need his changes. He'd have to set up a new user on ssh or something for me to merge his changes.
[03:14] <kingfishr> Basically, what's the easiest way for me to get his changes, if we're both feeling lazy?
[03:15] <fullermd> Well, you've given him ftp access.  Let him give you ftp access.
[03:15] <fullermd> (or ssh, better; any opportunity to stamp out FTP is a good opportunity...)
[03:15] <lifeless> kingfishr: 'bzr serve' in the directory he is working on
[03:15] <lifeless> kingfishr: then 'bzr browse' followed by 'bzr merge <reported url>'
[03:15] <lifeless> kingfishr: assuming you both have bzr-avahi installed
[03:15] <lifeless> kingfishr: without bzr-avahi, its
[03:16] <lifeless> 'bzr serve'
[03:16] <lifeless> which reports a ip and url
[03:16] <lifeless> then 'bzr merge bzr://his-ip/'
[03:19] <kingfishr> lifeless, awesome
[03:20] <lifeless> fullermd: never forget adhocing :>
[03:20] <kingfishr> fullermd, yes, normally I'd use ssh over ftp but I already had an ftp server set up with correct permissions...again, being lazy
[03:33] <fullermd> I tend to, because I never do it   :p
[03:34] <fullermd> Think the only time I ever used 'bzr serve' was in a bug filing...
[03:34] <lifeless> fullermd: use bzr+ssh ?
[03:40] <poolie_> ah, lifeless is probably right about tree transforms
[03:41] <poolie_> it's arguably a bug if we don't fall back to copy&delete
[03:42] <fullermd> I don't mean the SS, I mean "bzr serve" itself directly.
[03:42] <lifeless> poolie_: well, arguably. OTOH its not exactly a common use case
[03:43] <poolie_> right
[04:19] <fullermd> The atomic link()'ing has the advantage that there can't be any half-formed files polluting the working tree.
[04:19] <fullermd> (of course, the files can still be out of sync with each other, so whether that increment really matters is somewhat questionable)
[04:39] <poolie_> 1.8 is in the ppa now
[05:21] <abpend> Not sure if anyone is around...
[05:22] <abpend> But with the standalone bzr installer on windows, are bzr+ssh checkouts supposed to work out-of-box?
[05:22] <abpend> Or does something special need to be done?
[05:36] <spiv> abpend: They should work, I believe.
[05:36] <spiv> abpend: although it may depend on you having a working SSH client already installed?
[06:33] <lifeless> poolie: Do you want to talk today?
[06:34] <poolie> abpend, spiv, it's meant to work without it
[06:34] <poolie> lifeless: only if you want to
[06:34] <lifeless> poolie: briefly would be good
[06:34] <poolie> and i suppose you want a cooperative attitude too?
[06:34] <poolie> :)
[06:52] <lifeless> gnight all
[06:52] <poolie> night!
[07:14] <vila> hi all
[07:21]  * fullermd waves at vila.
[07:34]  * vila waves back !
[07:49] <spiv> gnome-terminal has crashed for the second time today.
[07:49] <spiv> Not happy.
[07:50]  * gour uses urxvt
[07:50] <AfC> Really?
[07:50]  * AfC hasn't had gnome-terminal crash in years and years.
[07:50] <fullermd> Hey, no fair!  We already had the your-terminal-emulator-sucks discussion earlier on!
[07:50] <fullermd> You can't double-dip.
[07:51] <gour> today?
[07:51] <fullermd> Less than 7 hours ago.
[07:51] <gour> ahh, that's almost yesterday here ;)
[07:51] <luks> 02:50 < fullermd> Hey, no fair!  We already had the your-terminal-emulator-sucks discussion earlier on!
[07:53] <luks> oops, sorry
[07:54] <spiv> For bonus points, I also had X crash today.
[07:54] <fullermd> Has bzr eaten any of your repositories?
[07:55] <spiv> Nope.
[07:55]  * gour is learning python (reading DIP book) and wrapping his head around python's 'and-or trick'
[07:56] <spiv> bzr has given some scary errors that superficially looked like repo corruption on the repo my wife keeps her PhD thesis in, though.
[07:56] <spiv> But that's as close as it's got.
[07:56] <fullermd> Well, just replace X and your terminal with bzr then!  With that easily-extensible architecture, you should be able to bang up a plugin in no time flat!
[07:57] <spiv> fullermd: bzr vte?  Scary thought.
[07:57] <fullermd> Well, it'll take 10 times as long to start up as gnome-terminal, but it'll only be 3x slower once it's running.  And the UI will be nicer.
[07:59]  * fullermd . o O ( bzr -geometry 80x25-58+49 -iconic [...] )
[08:00] <alf_> Hello, I am bit confused about 'bzr update'.
[08:01] <spiv> AfC: I hadn't had gnome-terminal crash in a very long time either.  It's a bit disorienting :)
[08:01] <spiv> alf_: any specific aspect of it, or just the command in general?
[08:01] <alf_> All it does is to update the working tree according to the branch information?
[08:02]  * fullermd nods at alf_.
[08:02]  * gour prefers working in DVCS env and uses pull
[08:02] <spiv> alf_: right (although that may involve doing a merge if there are local changes)
[08:03] <alf_> spiv: I am actually puzzled because when using it on a non-checkout branch it does nothing, it says all is up-to-date
[08:04] <fullermd> Well, that's what it does in any branch when the working tree is up to date with the branch  :)
[08:05] <alf_> So it only acts locally even though the remote branch may have diverged.
[08:05] <AfC> alf_: pull does an implicit update. So you're probably not used to thinking about it.
[08:06] <fullermd> IT works on your working tree, and the branch it's a WT of.  If that branch is local, it only acts locally; if the branch is somewhere else, it acts there too.
[08:08] <alf_> fullermd: Sorry, by remote branch I meant the mainline the local branch is the copy of.
[08:09] <alf_> So if I have a bound branch the 'local' branch information is actually the remote one and that is why it actually works like 'bzr pull'.
[08:09]  * fullermd drags "bound branch" out behind the woodshed and drops a load of buckshot into it.
[08:10] <fullermd> When do you "bzr checkout bzr+ssh://wherever/" (or any other URL/path of course), you're making a new working tree on the branch at bzr+ssh://wherever/.  So 'update' will involve updating that working tree to that branch.
[08:11] <fullermd> When you have an all-in-one (e.g., the fruits of 'bzr init', or 'bzr branch foo'), the branch at the WT are colocated there, so update would update that WT to the branch sitting there.
[08:11] <fullermd> Mostly, it's harder to get those out of sync.  One way is by push'ing to the branch from somewhere else; that'll update the branch, but won't touch the WT, so it will then be outdated.
[08:12] <fullermd> But the point of checkout's is to allow multiple WT's to share a single branch, like in CVCS, so it's much more common for the branch to move ahead of the WT.
[08:13] <fullermd> Which is why, speaking very roughly, 'update' is mostly used with explicit 'checkout's.
[08:16] <alf_> OK, I got it, thanks. As a side note the
[08:19] <alf_> 'bzr help update' documentation could use some clarification on the matter.
[08:20] <fullermd> Probably.
[08:26] <Peng_> I just realized that the branch/checkout pull/update thing totally makes sense. I used to think it was just an icky svn-ism.
[08:27] <Peng_> That doesn't make it ideal, but at least I get it now.
[08:30] <alf_> Peng_: exactly my thoughts, too. Perhaps this conversation (or the gist of it) should be added somewhere in the wiki or the guide.
[08:31] <fullermd> Well, it makes sense if you (a) concentrate on Checkout, Branch, and Repository, and keep track of which piece is where in your setup, and (b) shoot "bound branch" in the back of the head when it's not looking, and with it any concept of the special-ness of heavy checkouts...
[08:32] <fullermd> It's when you get those implementation details in your mind that otherwise rather clear things start getting really muddy and special-case-looking.
[08:33] <fullermd> I keep meaning to try and write up a good defense/exposition from that angle.  I plan to as soon as I get caught up on some other things.  2063 is looking like a good year for it.
[08:34] <Peng_> Eh, I didn't think about heavyweight checkouts.
[08:34] <fullermd> Well, don't   :]
[08:35] <Peng_> I only understand it because of the implementation details.
[08:35] <Peng_> I mean, of course I knew how to use branches and checkouts, but I didn't understand why the commands were different.
[08:35] <Peng_> And now I do. :)
[08:35] <fullermd> Update updates a working tree to match a branch.  Pull updates a branch to match another branch.
[08:35] <fullermd> (it also often updates a colocated working tree if one's there, but that's a side matter)
[08:36] <Peng_> Colocated working tree?
[08:36] <fullermd> It's not quite as simple as "branch->pull, checkout->update"; pull can make perfect sense used in a checkout, if that's what you're intending to do, and I use update in non-explicit-checkout trees all the time.
[08:37] <fullermd> Yah, when you have a branch and WT sitting in the same place.
[08:38] <Peng_> Oh.
[08:38] <fullermd> I don't have a better term.  "standalone branch/tree" already has meaning in opposition to "repository b/t".
[08:39] <Peng_> I need to stop thinking about this. I understand it now, and if I think any more, I might confuse myself.
[08:39] <fullermd> "tree" by itself is way too generic, though it's the component of the rest of out terms that refers to the construct.
[08:39] <Peng_> (Psst, hg is simpler. :P )
[08:39]  * Peng_ hides
[08:39] <fullermd> Well, so is RCS   :P
[08:39] <Peng_> :)
[08:39] <fullermd> And safer, too, 'cuz it has locks!
[08:41] <fullermd> Really, what makes hg simpler here is that it doesn't let you separate the WT from the branch.
[08:42] <fullermd> So, if you just edit bzr to remove 'checkout', it'll be just as simple   :p
[08:42] <Peng_> It doesn't exactly separate branch and repo as much either.
[08:43] <fullermd> Kinda sucks all around, this bzr/hg/git thing, y'know?
[08:43] <fullermd> They're so similar, you forget the differences, and cause yourself no end up pain working between them.
[08:43] <fullermd> And they're so different, you forget how similar they are deep down and start ending up with invalid conclusions about relative capabilities.
[08:43] <spiv> bzr does lack a neat way to work with groups of branches.
[08:44] <fullermd> On the other hand, we DO already have all this capability of working with the pieces independantly, which makes it conceptually much EASIER for us to add that feature, than for e.g. git to add the capbility to split up as we do.
[08:44] <fullermd> We'd be 90% of the way there by having a WT and Repo colocated, with the Branch's elsewhere, that elsewhere being somewhere under .bzr/, with better support for sibling-pathing in various branch-referencing commands.
[08:44] <spiv> That's the main point of its UI that actually seems to be a bit weaker than some other systems, rather than just being more flexible :)
[08:45] <spiv> fullermd: well, looms give you something sort of like that, but with perhaps a bit too much policy builtin.
[08:45] <fullermd> Eh.  Looms give you a stack, not a set.
[08:46] <spiv> fullermd: but looms do demonstrate that such a thing isn't fundamentally hard to build.
[08:46] <fullermd> Useful, but for different things.
[08:46] <fullermd> The biggest stumbling point is, that, sibling-reference syntactic sugar aside, branches are named by location rather than name.  That can make some things harder.  You end up doing a lot of heuristics to make things in a multi-tree LOOK like they're using names locally.
[08:48] <fullermd> And threads in a loom are like branches, except different.  I think in designing multi-trees we need to try to avoid making a new branch-like object; it just adds more special cases and confusion.
[08:48] <fullermd> Gotta just adjust how they can be referenced and moved around.
[08:48]  * fullermd has it all figured out...   everything but the code to make it happen!
[08:49] <fullermd> Yet another on my list of things to braindump in 2063   :p
[09:47] <AfC> Has anyone had trouble getting `bzr serve` to run as at bzr 1.8?
[09:50] <fullermd> Not in a quick test (or in the various bzr+ssh'age I've done since the upgrade)
[09:52] <AfC> Hm.
[09:52] <AfC> Well, bug filed. I have no idea WTF, but I had to downgrade back to 1.7.1
[09:53] <fullermd> What bug?
[09:54] <AfC> (holy christ launchpad is slow)
[09:54] <Schalken> Q: What is the difference between a merge and a pull?
[09:54] <AfC> fullermd: Here we are: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/286871
[09:54] <fullermd> Found it.
[09:55] <fullermd> Note that it's blowing up AFTER trying to raise the error for failing to bind to the address/port.
[09:55] <AfC> fullermd: yeah, I saw that too
[09:55] <fullermd> So the tuple out of range is a secondary failure.
[09:55] <AfC> But it shouldn't be having trouble binding
[09:55] <fullermd> The real question is why can't it bind, and that wouldn't change 1.7.1->1.8 I wouldn't think.  Weird.
[09:55] <fullermd> Maybe you had a TIME_WAIT socket hanging around?
[09:56] <AfC> fullermd: I wouldn't have thought so either.
[09:56] <AfC> fullermd: I tried different ports
[09:56] <AfC> fullermd: so that's not it,
[09:58] <fullermd> Got me, then.
[09:58] <fullermd> Always a little disturbing, when something gets an error trying to give an error...
[09:58] <AfC> I can't duplicate it locally, of course, which makes it even more of a piss-off
[09:58] <fullermd> Some sorta weird selinux-like thing screwing around with what it lets bind where?
[09:59] <AfC> {shrug}
[09:59] <AfC> If it works with 1.7...
[09:59] <fullermd> Well, if the program/lib/whatever were in a different place...
[09:59] <AfC> Fair enough. But no, we don't run SE or any of that.
[10:00]  * fullermd is inclined to blame selinux for any fault on any linux system.    In about 1992.  Try and keep up here   :)
[10:01] <AfC> :)
[10:14] <poolie> night
[12:08] <spiv> AfC: Looks likely to be due to the change to allow bzr to bind to IPv6 addresses -- I've added a comment to the bug.
[12:39]  * lamont grumbles about bzrtools/dapper being ftbfs
[12:44] <cyberix> A Bazaar icon suddenly appeared in my notification area
[12:44] <cyberix> What am I supposed to do with it?
[12:45] <beuno> cyberix, it's part of bzr-gtk
[12:47] <cyberix> Why do I need it?
[12:49] <beuno> I don't think you do
[12:49] <beuno> there's a bug open for that
[13:14] <AfC> spiv: I'll have a poke in the IPv6 direction in the morning.
[14:39] <Linuturk> anyone have a good guide as to using bzr to publish a website?
[14:40] <jelmer> there's one on the wiki afaik
[14:45] <CardinalFang> Hi all.  I want to add a new feature to bzr using a plugin, a feature that (I think) goes beyond the foresight of the designers.  Is there a place in the .bzr/ tree that is safe for me to use?  I want a guarantee that I'm not going to break anything and future updates to bzr aren't going to break because of my addition of a new file in .bzr/ .  Essentially, I want a /usr/local/ inside .bzr/ .
[14:46] <jelmer> CardinalFang, afaik you should be able to use anything under .bzr as long as it's not named {branch,repository,checkout}{,-format}
[14:48] <CardinalFang> Even in 10 years?
[14:49] <jelmer> CardinalFang, never say never
[14:50] <CardinalFang> Instead, write specs that say "MUST".
[14:50] <jelmer> CardinalFang, there's no mechanism to maintain who can use what
[14:50] <jelmer> CardinalFang, s/maintain/determine/
[14:50] <jelmer> CardinalFang, bzr-svn sometimes uses a "svn" directory there, for example
[14:50] <jelmer> so probably best to just take some name that is unlikely to clash with anything else
[14:52] <CardinalFang> Okay.  May I suggest "plugin-local/%(plugin_project_name)s" ?
[14:53] <jelmer> TBH that seems a bit overengineered to me, generally plugins don't have to write anything there
[15:00] <CardinalFang> I just don't want bzr or another author stomping on my toes when I name something "attributes".
[15:01] <CardinalFang> "plugin-local" is to protect bzr.  project name is to protect me.
[15:02] <jelmer> It doesn't prevent somebody else from creating a plugin named "attributes"
[15:02] <jelmer> Your best bet probably is just to make sure the name is unique
[15:04] <CardinalFang> My plugin is uniquely named.  I'm referring to a file I want to create in .bzr/ .
[15:04] <CardinalFang> Alright, i guess I got all I'm going to get.  Thanks, j.
[15:05] <jelmer> There's not really a good way to solve these things.. you need a central authority to control who gets to use what names or something :-)
[15:07] <vila> CardinalFang: If you tell more you may get more, for a start what .bzr are you talking about ? The repo one (shared or not), the branch one (with or without tree), the tree one ? Do you expect that directory to propagated on pushes, updated on pull, can there be conflicts ? etc. Otherwise .bzr is private to bzr if you put something here, *you* are responsible for maintaining it and protecting it
[15:09] <CardinalFang> The branch .bzr .  It will /not/ be propagated on pulls or pushes (that's the point).  I know it's private to Bazaar; I want a reserved space for plugin authors to use.
[15:09] <CardinalFang> vila, ^
[15:11] <vila> There is no reserved space that I know of at that point, but an addition to the branch that doesn't propagate sounds strange... Are you sure it's not for the working tree ?
[15:11] <CardinalFang> Yes, I'm sure.  This is not versioned information.  It /must not/ be.
[15:13] <vila> Well, I can't provide advices in the dark, I've done my best with what you provided and my limited knowledge... The last thing I can mention is that you can specify some info in branch.conf and locations.conf that are related to branches
[15:16] <CardinalFang> vila, Yes, thanks.  De facto standards as good as de jure.  I'll just do it and mention it in the wiki.
[15:17] <jam> vila: ping
[15:21] <vila> jam: pong
[15:22] <jam> how's it going?
[15:22] <jam> Were you able to merge my bzr-gtk patch without any problems?
[15:22]  * jam is still not sure why he isn't a part of the bzr-gtk developers, but it doesn't really matter in the end
[15:22] <vila> yup :) bundle are smarter than I thought, your commit is now on trunk
[15:23] <vila> because you didn't register there ?
[15:24] <jelmer> jam, I wasn't aware you weren't part of the bzr-gtk developers at least :-)
[15:24] <jam> well, I probably never tried
[15:24] <vila> jam: It's quite paradoxical given that you're quite high in bzr stats output :)
[15:24] <jam> for now, I'm happy enough with that :)
[15:24] <vila> jelmer: same here :)
[15:24] <jelmer> jam, you're not a member of the launchpad team or voting rights in bb?
[15:24] <jam> vila: that's just because when I develop I commit a lot
[15:24] <vila> jam: yeah, sure :)
[15:24] <jam> jelmer: I'm not part of either
[15:25] <jam> vila: I only developed the per-file commit code
[15:25] <jam> and maybe some diff tweaking
[15:25] <vila> jam: haaa, you're the one... We need to talk then :)
[15:25] <jam> Probably my total lines of code is smaller than my total # of commits
[15:28] <vila> What is the rationale of iter_changes_to_status() in diff.py and why not using tree.iter_changes more directly ?
[15:28] <vila> Because it was private in this time ?
[15:32] <vila> jam: Anyway, it sounds that iter_changes_to_status() traceback when invoked on trees with conflicts (or partially resolved conflicts)
[15:34] <vila> In particular it seems to fail when invoked on contents conflicts, but I've yet to reduce the reproducible scenario
[15:38] <vila> seeing file names ending in .OTHER.OTHER in bzr st output, added section, makes my eyes bleed
[15:50] <jam> vila: I'm not really sure. My guess is that iter_changes_to_status is meant to build up the 'status' style listing which breaks things into added/removed/etc sections
[15:51] <jam> rather than just spitting everything out as one-line changes
[15:51] <jam> (consider 'bzr st' versus 'bzr st --short'
[15:52] <vila> but gcommit presents them in their raw form and the columns (type, path) are not even sortable...
[15:53] <vila> anyway, see https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr-gtk/+bug/286834/comments/5
[15:54] <jam> I wish direct links to comments had an obvious way back to the bug
[15:54] <jelmer> james_w, I'll have a look at hiding that bzr-gtk icno when it's not used
[15:54] <james_w> jelmer: cool, thanks
[16:01] <vila> jam: Exactly my thought a few hours ago, I ended up editing the url
[16:01] <jam> vila: yeah, me too. Did you try my reproducible way?
[16:01] <jam> It is pretty trivial to trigger with "bzr add foo; rm foo"
[16:02] <vila> jam: eerk, where did you write that ?
[16:02] <jam> vila: look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr-gtk/+bug/286834/comments/4
[16:02] <jam> or https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr-gtk/+bug/286834/comments/3
[16:02] <jam> (you want comment 3)
[16:03] <vila> damn it, my page was already opened when you wrote that :-(
[16:05] <vila> ok, then I may have a guess on what files trigger that, it seems to occur when repeatedly merging from a branch where, at the first merge, you said I don't want that file (or containing dir even) and then they keep coming back
[16:06] <vila> jam: or something along those lines,
[16:06] <vila> s/,//
[16:07] <vila> at least the ones I got when doing 'bzr resolve --all' without solving the conflicts seem to match the pattern
[16:07] <jam> so for 'bzr resolve --all' I would expect the merge to conflict on deleting a file
[16:07] <jam> and after resolve --all it will have implicitly deleted the .OTHER file
[16:07] <jam> so
[16:08] <jam> touch foo
[16:08] <jam> bzr add foo
[16:08] <jam> bzr commit
[16:08] <jam> bzr branch . ../other
[16:08] <jam> bzr rm foo
[16:08] <jam> bzr commit -m rm
[16:08] <jam> cd ../other
[16:08] <jam> echo mod >> foo
[16:08] <jam> bzr commit -m "mod foo"
[16:08] <jam> cd ../ths
[16:08] <jam> bzr merge ../other
[16:08] <jam> bzr resolve --all
[16:08] <jam> bzr gcommit
[16:10] <vila> jam: watch your language :)
[16:20] <vila> jam: works
[16:21] <jam> vila: so I think the fundamental issue is needing a way to represent "added but missing" files
[16:21] <jam> I would probably be fine with just a plain "missing" category
[16:22] <jam> and ignore whether they were just added or have been around a while
[16:22] <vila> addding a foo.OTHER file ?
[16:22] <jam> kinds[1] is None and versioned[1] is True
[16:22] <jam> vila: when you have a delete conflict, we add .OTHER
[16:22] <jam> as a way to "restore the file" but indicate "it was deleted in this"
[16:22] <jam> we need to put the modified content somewhere
[16:22] <jam> I think abentley thought .OTHER was the best way to do it.
[16:23] <vila> But *committing* that ?
[16:23] <jam> I'm not sure that I have a strictly better solution
[16:23] <jam> vila: that is why it is marked conflicted
[16:23] <vila> It's likely a user error
[16:23] <jam> so you can't commit until you do something to resolve it
[16:23] <jam> (resolve --all, being a really big hammer)
[16:24] <vila> I strongly suspect that a bzr resolve [--all] was issued in a hurry and that the intent is *not* to commit that file
[16:25] <vila> Now 'bzr commit' does indeed commit it... obeying user orders...
[16:32] <vila> jam: on second thought, I see your point about a missing section and indeed that seems to be the missing bit (ha ha) in iter_changes_to_status()
[16:37] <vila> jam: thanks for the help, I'll fix it from there
[16:37] <jam> vila: np
[16:38]  * vila runs to the school meeting
[17:02] <jelmer> james_w, btw, how's your archive importing going, or is that on hold until intrepid?
[17:03] <james_w> it's going ok
[17:03] <james_w> I need to stop working on other things to get the final bits in place
[17:03] <james_w> the main two tasks are to document everything, and write the incremental importer that imports new uploads outside of bzr
[17:38] <lamont> if someone with upload privs to ~bzr wants to fix bzrtools/dapper, that'd be lovely.  (sed -i s/central/support/ debian/{rules,control}; bump version, upload)
[17:40] <jam> lamont: If you want to post that as something I could actually do with "patch" then I'll be happy to bump the branch
[17:40] <jam> I'm currently on win32, though, so I can't rebuild the package
[17:41] <lamont> jam: I'll do that in a bit and poke you
[17:45] <lamont> jam: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/bzrtools_1.8.0-1~bazaar~dapper2_source.changes et al
[17:45] <jam> lamont: doesn't seem to be there yet
[17:46] <jam> lamont: is there a subdir I'm missing?
[17:46] <lamont> with wget? shouldn't be
[17:46] <jam> lamont: with Firefox atm
[17:47] <jam> and wget also gives a 404
[17:47] <lamont> 10:47:11 (52.29 MB/s) - `bzrtools_1.8.0-1~bazaar1~dapper2_source.changes' saved [899/899]
[17:47] <lamont> wget loves me
[17:47] <lamont> wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/bzrtools_1.8.0-1~bazaar1~dapper2_source.changes
[17:47] <jam> the 1 works better than the 2
[17:47] <lamont> ah, yeah.  missing 1 on the bazaar bit
[17:47] <lamont> bad monte.
[17:48] <lamont> anyway, the .changes needs to be resigned, and the 3 files uploaded to the ppa (obviously)
[17:50] <jam> lamont: well, I was hoping to have a patch that I could apply and 'bzr commit' first
[17:50] <lamont> oh.
[17:50] <lamont> meh
[17:51] <lamont> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/bzrtools.diff
[17:51] <lamont> keep or don't keep the debian/changelog part of that. :-)
[19:24] <synic> are there any graph generators for bzr?  Something to graph commits between certain dates
[19:41] <james_w> synic: there is something in bzrtools that may do what you want
[19:44] <Odd_Bloke> synic: Does 'bzr viz' in bzr-gtk do what you want?
[20:03] <jam> lamont: odd, when I go to apply your diff to ~bzr/bzrtools/packaging-dapper  it already has the right values
[20:03] <jam> I'm not sure what happened with Martin's packaging
[20:03] <lamont> jam: I was just going off the bzr repo packages...
[20:03] <lamont> so yeah
[20:03] <jam> Isn't that the bzr repo ?
[20:03] <jam> or you're saying that didn't make it into the .changes file, and you were just copying it?
[20:29] <mkanat> There's some way to do external dependency branches in modern bzr versions, yeah? Like having one branch get checked out into a specific place when checking out another branch?
[20:31] <Peng_> mkanat: That's been experimental for ages.
[20:31] <Peng_> Is it even possible right now?
[21:07] <lamont> jam: visit https://edge.launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive and note the big red X at the bottom of the page...
[21:07] <lamont> the bits uploaded to the bzr ppa, are not the ones that build
[21:07] <lamont> (for dapper, bzrtools, that is)
[21:13] <guilhembi_> vila: tu es là?
[21:33] <lifeless> jam: the T_LONGLONG thing is probably a new-pyrex-old-python thing
[22:19]  * Linuturk starts playing with bzr as a document repository/backup solution
[22:26] <Linuturk> how well does bazaar handle non text files
[22:26] <Linuturk> ?
[22:26] <Linuturk> like images and office docs?
[22:27] <Linuturk> video and music files as well
[22:27] <Linuturk> things you'd find in your typical /home directory
[22:27] <Linuturk> I currently use unison to sync, but revision control might be a better method
[22:28] <luks> depends on your definition of ""2Dhandle
[22:29] <poolie> hi
[22:30] <Linuturk> luks: I mean, it will allow me to push them to my server?
[22:30] <Linuturk> and, if they are deleted, remove them as well?
[22:30] <luks> Linuturk: of course, in fact bzr handles every file as binary
[22:31] <Linuturk> mmk
[22:31] <Linuturk> so, let's say I create a branch of my /home/username/
[22:31] <Linuturk> add all the files
[22:31] <Linuturk> initial commit
[22:32] <Linuturk> then, I push over ssh to server:/home/linuturk/
[22:32] <Linuturk> I would just see a .bzr directory there, right?
[22:32] <luks> after some (long) time, yes :)
[22:32] <Linuturk> I'd have to checkout before the files showed up on server
[22:32] <luks> right
[22:32] <Linuturk> that checkout comes from the local .bzr directory though, right?
[22:33] <Linuturk> not the network
[22:33] <luks> yes
[22:33] <Linuturk> ok. I'm starting to get the idea
[22:33] <luks> I think it's a bad idea, though
[22:33] <Linuturk> then, I could pull any changes back to my laptop, correct?
[22:33] <Linuturk> why a bad idea?
[22:34] <luks> bzr, or any other vcs, is not designed to do that
[22:36] <Linuturk> so, I'd probably just be better off syncing with unison like I am already
[22:36] <Linuturk> ?
[22:36] <luks> well, it depends on your needs
[22:37] <Linuturk> well, i want to have my files redundant across multiple machines incase of a single failure
[22:37] <Linuturk> and
[22:37] <Linuturk> easy online/offline access to said files
[22:37] <Linuturk> crossplatform
[22:38] <Linuturk> autosync would be lovely too
[22:39] <Linuturk> my own personal hosted dropbox would be ideal, but I don't know of any way to do that
[22:39] <Linuturk> ie, I don't trust them with my data and I want more than 2GB storage
[22:40] <luks> I think you will be disappointed using bzr for this, but you can try
[22:40] <beuno> Linuturk, rdiff-backup may be what you want
[22:40] <Linuturk> do you know of any other solutions?
[22:40] <beuno> if you want diff
[22:40] <luks> no, I don't
[22:40] <beuno> it saves reverse diffs, so you can go back in time for files, etc
[22:40] <beuno> it does diff on binaries as well
[22:42] <Linuturk> hmmm
[22:42] <Linuturk> neato
[22:47] <Odd_Bloke> I'm getting http://bzr.daniel-watkins.co.uk/bzr-twitter/foo when attempting to do anything with http://bzr.daniel-watkins.co.uk/bzr-twitter.  How can I resolve this to recover some data?
[22:52] <BasicPRO> Hello Odd_Bloke  I'm the person who email you regarding bzr-twitter :-)
[22:55] <Odd_Bloke> BasicOSX: Hi. :)
[22:55] <BasicOSX> What's a bzr info give you?
[22:55] <Odd_Bloke> I just responded.
[22:57] <Odd_Bloke> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/88712/
[22:57] <Odd_Bloke> "(format: unnamed)" is interesting.
[22:57] <BasicOSX> Did you create the repo with an older version of bzr? Perhaps a  'bzr upgrade' ?
[23:00] <Odd_Bloke> Oh, no, I was just failing at restoring backup.bzr.  It's actually giving http://paste.pocoo.org/show/88714/
[23:01] <spiv> "bzr info -v" is helpful when bzr reports "format: unnamed"
[23:02] <Odd_Bloke> http://bzr.daniel-watkins.co.uk/bzr-twitter/bzr-info-v
[23:06] <Odd_Bloke> spiv: ^
[23:09] <Odd_Bloke> Well, I'm heading to bed.
[23:09] <BasicOSX> night
[23:09] <Odd_Bloke> Having a job FTS.
[23:09] <BasicOSX> thanks for trying
[23:10] <Odd_Bloke> BasicOSX: No worries, I'll look at it again tomorrow.
[23:10] <Odd_Bloke> This might actually be enough incentive to attempt a recovery from the broken drive. :)
[23:22] <mae^> why would bzr report a file as unmodified inside eclipse, but outside on the console its marked as modified?
[23:23] <Verterok> mae^: maybe bzr-eclipse fault? :)
[23:23] <Verterok> mae^: try refreshing the project
[23:24] <Verterok> mae^: bzr-eclipse should refresh the decorators
[23:24] <Verterok> mae^: also, if you can reproduce this behaviour, please file a bug :)
[23:25] <mae^> yeah, i think this started when I upgraded to 1.1.0


[00:15] <AlanBell> home at last
[00:20] <penguin42> from anywhere exciting?
[06:29] <astromech> morning everyone ! :)
[06:39] <Knightwise> morning ! :)
[06:49] <Knightwise> hey alan_g
[07:19] <brobostigon> good morning eveyone.
[07:26] <MartijnVdS> \o
[07:29] <Knightwise> hey brobostigon ! hey MartijnVdS !
[07:29] <Knightwise> how are you doing
[07:31] <brobostigon> hey Knightwise
[07:31] <brobostigon> hey MartijnVdS
[07:33] <Knightwise> will be doing an interesting topic on this weeks podcast
[07:33] <Knightwise>  Ubuntu on a G4 imac
[07:34] <Knightwise> still working through some issues though
[07:34] <Knightwise> lets say an app isn't compiled for ppc
[07:35] <Knightwise> (like for example flash and stuff)
[07:35] <Knightwise> can you compile it from source code ?
[07:35] <diplo> Morning all
[07:35] <Knightwise> hey diplo
[07:36] <mattt> morning morning
[07:50] <Knightwise> hey matt
[07:50] <Knightwise> question : just to get things straight for my podcast
[07:51] <Knightwise> when you have the sourcecode of an app , you can just compile it for whatever distro you are using .. right ?
[07:51] <Knightwise> but does that also mean that you can compile it for any processor ?
[07:51] <Knightwise> reason i'm asking is : if i run Linux on my PPC Imac
[07:51] <Knightwise> and i want to run chromium .. there is no port for chromium
[07:52] <Knightwise> is it possible for me to compile it from source ?
[07:54] <brobostigon> yes, Knightwise
[07:55] <MartijnVdS> Knightwise: if it's written properly, it shuold work
[07:55] <brobostigon> Knightwise: as for flash, you will have to use gnash, or similer, as adobe dont release the source.
[07:57] <Knightwise> thanx brobostigon , MartijnVdS
[07:58] <MartijnVdS> but if they use in-line assembler, or other processor-specific tricks (or bugs!), you're out of luck (unless you know the bugs/features and can work around them)
[07:58] <Knightwise> i'll go and try Gnash and anyone have any good alternatives to chromeium ?
[07:58] <Knightwise> (i have firefox 11 on it btw)
[07:58] <Knightwise> its a lubuntu 12.04 install
[07:59] <MartijnVdS> Knightwise: why not just use chromium?
[07:59] <brobostigon> Knightwise: i think there is a powerpc build of chromium in debian, so you might be able to get some help there.
[08:01] <Knightwise> aha , that sounds interesting.
[08:01] <brobostigon> Knightwise: i just checked, and there is. so you maybe able to import it.
[08:03] <Knightwise> aha :) so there is a ppc deb for chromium
[08:03] <Knightwise> might take a look at that.
[08:03] <Knightwise> be back in a sec
[08:03] <brobostigon> :)
[08:08] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:14] <hoover> morning all
[08:17] <AlanBell> morning all
[08:22] <SuperEngineer> just announced: sounds like Julian Assange extradition to go ahead
[08:24] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:24] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo
[08:26] <kvarley> SuperEngineer: It's a weird situation. If he hadn't had the incident with those women then he'd have been fine. He was moving into the media too much tho, when somebody does that stuff they should be off the radar at all times.
[08:28] <SuperEngineer> agreed  -- but -- but so should the CIA
[08:29] <kvarley> SuperEngineer: Lol true
[08:38] <gord> neat, new nvidia driver with xrandr support seems to work well
[08:41] <arsen> so, lets say my new work environment has been using SLED for the last two years (for dev/sysadminning), what arguements can i make to push them back to ubuntu?:)
[08:55] <kirrus> Argh!
[08:55] <kirrus> Something is setting off a 'doorchime' sound on my computer, and I can't trace it. Any ideas?
[08:56] <kirrus> The sound centre isn't giving any help at all. I've excluded thunderbird, pidgin, any sound notification (I killed the binary)
[08:56]  * kirrus wonders if someone is pranking him
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> kirrus: "door chime" sound?
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> kirrus: transmission finishing a download?
[09:04] <MartijnVdS> system bell? (check sound preferences -- it has options for "Glass" and "Sonar" etc.)
[09:05] <shauno> in the scary old days, I used to chase such faults by pulling the soundcard out, and then looking to see which processes were stuck when the kernel started spewing DMA timeouts all over the screen
[09:05] <stuphi> kirrus: That normally happens to me when the mess on my desk overflows onto the keyboard.
[09:05] <shauno> (not recommended, just feeling old)
[09:09] <kirrus> stuphi: hehe, yeah, not quite that bad ;)
[09:09] <kirrus> MartijnVdS: don't run transmission! :/
[09:09] <kirrus> shauno: *wishes that still worked*
[09:10] <shauno> I'm not sure it should have worked in the first place.  they were never designed to be hot-swappable :)
[09:11] <MartijnVdS> kirrus: keep the sound preferences window open on the "connected clients" list
[09:11] <kirrus> Didn't change when it played :(
[09:12] <MartijnVdS> is it your PC playing it then?
[09:12] <MartijnVdS> some flash page in the background somewhere?
[09:12] <kirrus> Aye, these don't have speakers, this is the only one attached to some speakers
[09:12] <kirrus> No, not as far as I can tell
[09:17] <MartijnVdS> kirrus: does turning the volume up/down work?
[09:18] <kirrus> MartijnVdS: not tried that yet.. the chime is short enough I can't get my hands to the right place on the keyboard fast enough. I might try turning it down this evening once I can
[09:20] <AlanBell> kirrus: have you tried answering the door ;)
[09:24] <kirrus> AlanBell: :P
[09:28] <MartijnVdS> kirrus: no turn down the volume to minimum, wait.. then turn up to maximum, wait
[10:00] <davmor2> morning all
[10:11] <DJones> directhex: Congratulations
[10:24]  * davmor2 feels like he missed out on the start of this conversation, DJones, directhex why are you being congratulate
[10:25] <DJones> davmor2: From twitter http://hasflisshadthebabyyet.apebox.org/
[10:26] <davmor2> DJones: nice
[10:26] <davmor2> directhex: Congats dude
[10:27] <DJones> I guess that will mean mono developent will be postboned for the foreseeable future
[10:28] <davmor2> DJones: next 18 years :D
[10:33] <JamesTait> Morning all! :)
[10:36] <davmor2> czajkowski: prod
[10:37] <czajkowski> davmor2: ello how be you
[10:37] <davmor2> czajkowski: I be tired, how be you
[10:45] <mattt> installing 12.04 on my desktop at work ...
[10:45]  * mattt holds onto his butts
[10:46] <czajkowski> davmor2: good, busy but good
[10:48] <SuperMatt> mattt: I'm sure you know it's not going to be a problem. 12.04 is just awesome.
[10:49] <Nafallo> yay! HSBC fast balance finally available on android.
[10:49] <czajkowski> Nafallo: howdy
[10:50] <Nafallo> morning
[10:50] <mattt> SuperMatt: to be fair, i mainly use my macbook :P
[10:50] <mattt> but i'm still excited
[10:56] <SuperMatt> I'm looking forward to the quantal alpha :D
[10:57] <SuperMatt> For some reason, I enjoy living on the edge
[11:08] <oimon> argh once signing into g+ chat, now i see g+ contacts in pidgin . anyone km
[11:08] <oimon> know how to fix?
[11:10] <gord> i'm confused, why would you sign in to google+ chat if you didn't want to see the google+ contacts?
[11:10] <oimon> i wanted to start a hangout with my missis. now i get notifications everytime popey signs in
[11:11] <gord> so remove your gtalk account from pidgin?
[11:11] <popey> or disable notifications
[11:11] <AlanBell> or unfriend popey
[11:11] <oimon> i only want to see my gmail talk contacts rather than g+ contacts in my list
[11:12] <AlanBell> it does sound more like a feature than a bug
[11:12] <popey> you can disable that in G+
[11:12] <AlanBell> I found a heap of google chat things on my android client the other day, people have been inviting me to stuff since oggcamp and I never knew it was happening
[11:13] <gord> "This email was sent to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>because you indicated that you want to receive news regarding Google Analytics integration with other Google products. If you do not wish to receive such emails in the future, please unsubscribe here: {% optout analytics promotion %} " uh...
[11:13] <oimon> popey, ah yes, i just found the custom list
[11:14] <AlanBell> I don't really know how the android messenger thing ties in with the google plus desktop interface
[11:14] <oimon> i use g+ as a twitter replacement. however since i accidentally updated the g+ app on my tablet i'm not sure i want to anymore
[11:14] <oimon> it's hideous
[11:14] <AlanBell> it is dreadful now
[11:14] <oimon> forutnately my phone is pinned on the old version
[11:15] <popey> i like it
[11:15] <oimon> i'd go as far to say that it's broken and doesn't work
[11:16] <gord> i found it a bit crampt on my phones fairly small by modern standards resolution
[11:16] <oimon> small icons and pics in posts end up being massive and obliterate the text
[11:16] <AlanBell> it is kind of clever that they put the pictures behind the text and mostly it stays readable
[11:21] <AlanBell> you only get two things on screen really now
[11:21] <AlanBell> twitter gets about 5 tweets
[11:21] <oimon> it looks hideous on a tablet
[11:22] <oimon> the webpage still looks ok
[11:22] <AlanBell> irssi in screen gets about 25 lines of stuff
[11:22] <popey> everything looks hideous on an android tablet ☺
[11:22] <AlanBell> plus highlights and channel list
[11:22] <AlanBell> popey: well do hurry up with the ubuntu tablets then :)
[11:23] <popey> roger roger
[11:23] <daubers> whats the vector victor?
[11:23] <gord> what's the frequency Kenneth?
[11:24] <oimon> this bug made me switch to gnome classic.need to wait till weekend to actually raise the bug in launchpad though :( http://askubuntu.com/questions/129265/nx-session-window-icon-shrinks-and-is-non-responsive-but-remote-session-still-a
[11:31] <davmor2> gord: mrevell: you both coming tomorrow?
[11:37] <gord> lots of stuff to do, so doubtful unless i get i make a good dent in it all today
[11:58] <czajkowski> oimon: why do you have to wait til the weekend?
[11:59] <oimon> czajkowski, i'm running windows on my laptop to work on an issue all week and can't reboot into linux to give screenshots/steps to repeat
[12:00] <oimon> btw how was flossie
[12:00] <czajkowski> good thanks
[12:18] <Knightwise> pompom pom
[12:35] <mattt> note to self, don't eat dodgy fish burger+chips for lunch
[13:11]  * hamitron scratches head
[13:13] <hamitron> gftp transfers at 22KB/s using ssh, scp transfers at 140KB/s
[13:13] <oimon> has anyone ever done a wee into a bottle while at the desk on a long conf call?
[13:13] <oimon> tempted right now
[13:14] <hamitron> done it into an empty bottle of cider
[13:14] <hamitron> but not what you say
[13:14] <hamitron> ;)
[13:14] <oimon> i bought a £120k setup and getting 1mb/s read speed
[13:15] <oimon> was hoping for more like 500MB/s
[13:15] <hamitron> over ssh?
[13:15] <oimon> no, direct attached
[13:15] <hamitron> k :/
[13:15] <oimon> running vmware on a blade
[13:16] <oimon> connected to SAN
[13:16] <oimon> something's broke but we don't know what
[13:17] <hamitron> well, I've given up with vmware again
[13:17] <diplo> After guys, anyone know much about MariaDB, esepecially licensing ?
[13:17] <hamitron> but that is only workstation
[13:17] <hamitron> :)
[13:18] <daubers> oimon: Is it quicker on the host (rather than in the VM guest)
[13:20] <AlanBell> diplo: it is GPL and works like mysql
[13:20] <oimon> daubers, yes
[13:21] <diplo> It's just my colleagues in Nottingham believe there is an issue with MySQL and C++ licensing that prevents us using mysql
[13:21] <oimon> if i live boot from an iso , hdparm gives OK speeds
[13:21] <diplo> atm we are using SQLite but it doesn't suit, can't find any info whether it's exactly same license for mariadb for the c++ issues
[13:21] <oimon> maybe a multipathing driver issue in esxi
[13:21] <jpds> diplo: Install Postgres?
[13:22]  * daubers excessivley dislikes SANs
[13:22] <diplo> heh, that is the other option jpds, I just suggested MariaDB as it means no massive code changes
[13:22] <AlanBell> diplo: there might be problems with mysql as oracle are going to interpret grey areas to their advantage
[13:22] <diplo> http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/foss-exception/
[13:22] <AlanBell> http://kb.askmonty.org/en/licensing-faq/
[13:22] <diplo> Guessing it's related to this, the guys up north looked into it more than I have in the last 10  minutes
[13:23] <diplo> MySQL before 5.1.55 also had the same FLOSS exception for the C client libraries, but the exception file and all references to it were removed by Oracle in MySQL 5.1.55.
[13:24] <diplo> Hmm so it defo seems to be the client connection part
[13:24] <diplo> I *hate* licensing!
[13:24] <diplo> :)
[13:26] <diplo> OK, so still screwed with mariadb
[13:29] <kvarley> Is there a way to clone an SD Card with dd but in a way that the output of the device is half the size of the actual card? For example my SD card is 512 MB but the content on there only actually fills 128MB, is there a way to clone the partitions but with a smaller cylinder size?
[13:31] <MartijnVdS> no
[13:31] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: is this for raspberry pi?
[13:31] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Yes
[13:32] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: then you can make the partitions on the "target" card yourself using fdisk or gparted (1x FAT, 1x EXT4, optional: 1x swap)
[13:32] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: then copy the contents over by mounting both ext4 partitions (source and target) and rsyncing everything over
[13:32] <MartijnVdS> I think
[13:32] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: I wanted to clone my 512MB card to an image but resize of partition sizes within the image so that people could write the image to a 256 MB card
[13:35] <hamitron> can't you create a blank image, copy the files to it, then write the boot sectors?
[13:35] <hamitron> you'd need to format the blank image first too ofc
[13:36] <kvarley> hamitron: Hadn't thought of that. That may just work, what tool do you recommend for writing boot sectors? Or would it work if I mounted the image as a loop and then used parted to make partitions?
[13:36] <hamitron> dd
[13:36] <hamitron> well, I'd use dd for copying the raw boot sector
[13:37] <kvarley> hamitron: Gonna use dd to make a blank image then go from there. I'll let you know how I get on - thanks for the help =]
[13:38] <hamitron> I just recall, been able to grab the first so many bytes from a drive using dd, but sure how many and if I'm even talking sense
[13:38] <hamitron> ;)
[13:38] <hamitron> google will know no doubt
[13:39] <popey> ooh, reminds me, my 2nd raspberry pi is out for delivery
[13:39] <popey> i should keep an ear out
[13:39] <gord> so good you needed another one?
[13:39] <kvarley> Everybody needs at least 2 Pis
[13:39] <kvarley> One stable, one to mess with
[13:39] <popey> 3rd should get here next week
[13:39] <gord> not sure what i could actually use a pi for
[13:39] <hamitron> kvarley, http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/howto-copy-mbr/
[13:39] <kvarley> popey: You got XBMC running on it yet?
[13:40] <popey> yes
[13:40] <kvarley> hamitron: Thanks
[13:40] <gord> apart from maaaybe replacing my revos, but i'm in no hurry to do that
[13:40] <kvarley> popey: It's surprisingly good
[13:40] <hamitron> can't you just have 2 memory cards, to swap with 1 r-pi?
[13:40] <hamitron> ;)
[13:41] <hamitron> I've registered my interest for my first r-pi now \o/
[13:42] <kvarley> What are /dev/sdb /dev/sdc called?
[13:42] <hamitron> they are files, representing drives
[13:43] <kvarley> Wondered if they have a specific name so I can search for how to mount an unformatted img file as one
[13:44] <hamitron> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/mounting-img-files-328503/
[13:47] <popey> kvarley: what are you trying to do?
[13:48] <popey> make an sd card for a pi?
[13:48] <kvarley> hamitron: Thanks, got it mounted now
[13:48] <kvarley> popey: Making a bootable image for redistribution
[13:48] <kvarley> hamitron: Had to format the .img file first "mkfs.msdos imagefile.img"
[13:48] <hamitron> yep
[13:49] <popey> kvarley: containing what?
[13:49] <diplo> popey: How well does xbmc run then? I was up to buy one to get it for media box for my boys room, but failed to order and thought i'd wait out to see what improvements came over the following months before i actually ordered
[13:49] <kvarley> popey: A OpenELEC (XBMC)
[13:49] <popey> ahh
[13:50] <hamitron> is the MBR used on the SD card with the r-pi, like a "normal" PC uses it?
[13:50] <kvarley> diplo: Menus still need a little tweaking. Can play 1080p x264 videos no problems tho. As the menus get fully rendered by the GPU it'll free up the CPU to run programs and add-ons in the background
[13:50] <kvarley> diplo: For the price it makes a damn swish media centre
[13:51] <diplo> Cool, sold still then,,, mates turned up yesterday so going to try it out.
[13:51] <diplo> I'd love one for the boys and my room, have a revo in the front room with xbmc already
[13:51] <hamitron> surely the revo will kick its butt?
[13:51] <diplo> Any recommendations on imgs to load for XBMC ?
[13:51] <popey> hamitron: at what?
[13:51] <kvarley> hamitron: No MBR, just a "start.elf" file in a partition which is marked with flags boot and lba
[13:51] <diplo> Yes, but that's in the front room and £150+, I want one for the two other rooms
[13:51] <kvarley> diplo: I'm making one now
[13:52] <diplo> ah right, making some improvements ?
[13:52] <hamitron> popey, poowwwwwwwwwwwwer ;)
[13:52] <popey> pi is lower power :p
[13:52] <kvarley> diplo: Oh, sorry thought you literally meant .img. I'm making a .img of OpenELEC. OpenELEC is a lightweight linux distro which specifically runs and targets the RPi - it's the best I've tried so far for running XBMC.
[13:52] <hamitron> oh, energy wise yeh
[13:53] <diplo> ah, just read up about openelec, can't say I've seen it before
[13:53] <hamitron> but comeon..... atom vs arm
[13:53] <gord> for xbmc, all you need is enough power to play 1080p content
[13:53] <popey> are you trolling?
[13:53] <diplo> hamitron: It's GPU based though mainly
[13:53] <popey> what he said
[13:53] <gord> you don't need lots of power, just enough
[13:53] <gord> the new revos are stupid powerful though, the black ones have a geforce 210 variant in them
[13:54] <diplo> Will tell him to use OpenElec kvarley thanks, glad I ordered these monitors @ work with hdmi sockets :D
[13:54] <hamitron> so the revo is more powerful, can do more things
[13:54] <hamitron> is all I'm saying
[13:54] <hamitron> :)
[13:54] <popey> if you only want it to do one thing, no need
[13:54] <hamitron> not trolling..... today
[13:54] <hamitron> ;)
[13:55] <gord> vdpau has broken on my precice xbmc install, so i had to drop it down to using software decoding, it actually only hits one core and gets smooth playback at 1080p... i'm mostly putting it down to the new nvidia drivers though, xrandr means xbmc can switch the refresh rate down to 24hz
[13:56] <diplo> Tried the XBMC official release gord ? Or you run normal precise and ppa ?
[13:56] <gord> normal precice and ubuntu xbmc
[13:56] <gord> its in the repos now
[13:56] <gord> which is nice because it uses system installed ffmpeg, so i get 10bit decoding support in eden
[13:56] <diplo> oh right
[13:57] <diplo> Time to upgrade for me then!
[13:57] <diplo> I'm running Eden but on 9.04 or 9.10, can't remember
[13:58]  * hamitron is loving 12.04
[13:58] <kvarley> diplo: http://kvarley.co.uk/RaspberryPi/OpenELEC/
[13:58]  * popey falls over
[13:58] <popey> kvarley: is that a tarball or what?
[13:59] <kvarley> popey: tarballs on there at the moment
[13:59] <kvarley> popey: Image coming when I get it done
[13:59] <popey> k
[13:59] <kvarley> popey: I can give you a shout when it's up if you want?
[13:59] <popey> pro-tip, put it in your ubuntu one folder, and share it
[13:59] <popey> then you get an ubuntu-one url rather than a manky mediafire one :D
[13:59] <hamitron> is ubuntu one good then?
[14:00] <kvarley> popey: Ok =]
[14:00] <AlanBell> better than those popup sites
[14:00] <hamitron> I sorta removed the icon :/
[14:00] <gord> you can also use dropbox or whatever if you prefer ;)
[14:01] <hamitron> with all these terms and conditions, it gets confusing
[14:01] <davmor2> hamitron: U1 is perfect for me
[14:01] <hamitron> tempted to just go back to basics
[14:02] <hamitron> is it 5GB or 20GB storage?
[14:02] <AlanBell> U1 is good, but has problems with uploading lots of files at once (fix in progress I think)
[14:02] <davmor2> hamitron: you can access U1 via the messages indicator
[14:02] <gord> 5GB free, 20GB pay pay for
[14:03] <bubu\a> any uk'ers here get xbmcflix working in UK on XBMC?
[14:04] <AlanBell> U1 seems quite a bit slower than dropbox
[14:04] <diplo> bubu\a: Netflix on XBMC ?
[14:04] <bubu\a> yes
[14:04] <ali1234> what happens if i hammer a free U1 account?
[14:04] <bubu\a> diplo, its called XBMCflix
[14:05] <diplo> Thought it was silverlight, so only way would be on a windows xbmc install
[14:05] <diplo> Not seen that
[14:05] <AlanBell> ali1234: then aquarius will have a sad face
[14:05] <bubu\a> yeah needs windows install
[14:05] <ali1234> like by using it to host all the images on my 2M hits per hour blog, for example
[14:05] <bubu\a> only reason I switched from xbmc live to XBMC ontop of win7
[14:05] <bubu\a> and there is no UK API for it :(
[14:05] <gord> it probably explicitly crawls the us site
[14:05] <aquarius> ali1234, depends on your definition of the word "hammer". At the moment, we do not restrict how many times a published file is downloaded.
[14:06] <ali1234> aquarius: well, i defined it ^
[14:06] <aquarius> I do not believe that you have a blog which is hit two million times an hour. :)
[14:06] <hamitron> haha
[14:07] <gord> buuuurn
[14:07] <aquarius> *youtube* only gets about 70 times that much :)
[14:09] <hamitron> all these free services have turned me into a right tight git
[14:10] <hamitron> begrudge paying anything these days ;)
[14:10] <bubu\a> lol
[14:16] <aquarius> hamitron, U1's pretty nice, although obviously I would say that. Paying for a service is, in my opinion, a good idea, because I read http://blog.pinboard.in/2011/12/don_t_be_a_free_user/ and agreed with it, and it changed my view on how I use stuff (honestly unconnected with how I work on a service which I'd like people to pay for, although I can see why you wouldn't believe me on that :)
[14:17] <hamitron> I believe in paying for a service, to get something decent and make it viable
[14:17] <hamitron> but I also hate paying
[14:17] <hamitron> so end up with nothing \o/
[14:17] <aquarius> Mac question: mate of mine has a macbook and wants to try Ubuntu. Should I suggest that he runs it on the metal with bootcamp, or in some sort of VM, and if so in which VM? He's an architect, so he'll be using OS X a lot -- this is not a one-step total-changeover migration, but I'd like him to try Ubuntu and see what he thinks, and he's interested in it aesthetically.
[14:18] <ali1234> it won't run properly in a VM
[14:18] <ali1234> gord will probably try to disagree but i don't care, unity needs better 3D support than VMs can provide
[14:19] <hamitron> I'll second what ali1234 said
[14:19] <hamitron> resizing windows just made it feel sluggish :/
[14:20] <gord> if only unity had a 2d mode?
[14:20] <aquarius> OK. But will everything else run properly *not* in a VM? Historically, as I understand it, we've not had great support for Mac hardware, and he's not a technical guy -- if it doesn't suspend properly or doesn't work with his TV properly or the sound doesn't work sometimes then it'll turn him off, and I'd like to impress here if I can.
[14:20] <diplo> bubu\a: Didn't want to pay for a license so didnt go with windows ( Not got spare cash for win7 atm )
[14:20] <ali1234> i've got no idea, i don't use macs
[14:20] <diplo> So NetFlix don't get my cash
[14:20] <aquarius> ali1234, neither do I, which is why I'm asking to see if anyone knows. :)
[14:20] <ali1234> there was a nice bug where it bricked some macs because of efi
[14:21] <ali1234> but that was fixed ages ago
[14:22] <ali1234> tbh i'm not really sure why anyone who actually likes OS X would want to switch to ubuntu
[14:22] <diplo> Anyone recommend places that sell little units like these, want to compare some places
[14:22] <diplo> http://www.tranquilpcshop.co.uk/t2i-with-2nd-generation-intel-core-processor/
[14:23] <aquarius> ali1234, well; he's seen Ubuntu and likes how it looks, and he's interested in trying something new -- he's not a technical person, but he enjoys technology if you see what I mean.
[14:23] <ali1234> well i can understand that, what with unity being largely copied from OS X
[14:24] <ali1234> it just doesn't really compare favourably if you've used both
[14:24] <aquarius> and he's got a strong aesthetic sense (architect, after all), so I want him to experience Ubuntu being beautiful -- because he's not technical, he's hardly heard of it at all, so he's not bringing all the baggage of "oh it's linux it doesn't work", "oh it's linux you have to compile your own kernel", and so on. I think this sort of person is just who we *want* to attract.
[14:24] <aquarius> ali1234, that's what I want to test. If he uses Ubuntu and everything works perfectly and he still doesn't like it, then I shall say "fine, we're obviously not ready to go after that segment of the market".
[14:25] <ali1234> why would you want to use linux if you don't want to compile your own kernel?
[14:25] <aquarius> What I'd like to avoid is it *potentially* being great for him but him being let down because the sound doesn't work, or something equally annoying.
[14:25] <hamitron> perhaps boot from an external hdd?
[14:25] <ali1234> well the only way you will find that out is by trying it on his machine first before you let him use it
[14:25] <hamitron> if the livecd works ofc
[14:25] <aquarius> ali1234, because it's beautiful and it does everything you want from a computer and the upgrades are free. That's why I use it.
[14:26] <ali1234> i thought you said you liked to pay for stuff?
[14:27] <hamitron> that site aquarius linked said that didn't go for software, more for services
[14:27] <hamitron> :)
[14:27] <aquarius> If the seller *wants* money, sure. The Ubuntu community don't *have* a way to pay for Ubuntu, because that's not what they want. They get money from sale of services around Ubuntu, which I am happy to pay -- I buy music, I'd pay for U1 if I didn't get it for nothing, I buy things from the shop.
[14:28] <ali1234> " If they won't do it, clone them and do it yourself.  Soon you'll be the only game in town! "
[14:28] <aquarius> hamitron, exactly. The point of services is that more users costs the operator more money. The point of software is that that doesn't apply; doubling the number of Ubuntu users does not, at least in theory, double your cost to make Ubuntu.
[14:28] <ali1234> that's not actually true at all
[14:28] <hamitron> I still think a software project is best to have some form of income somehow, to fund support and development
[14:28] <ali1234> more users = more bug reports and support requests
[14:28] <aquarius> services provided as part of Ubuntu I *do* pay for (or I would for those that I use if they weren't a company benefit).
[14:29] <ali1234> especially if said users are completely non-technical
[14:29] <aquarius> hamitron, yep, which is why I donate, and why I support what Bryan Lunduke's doing right now.
[14:29] <ali1234> i stopped supporting family members windows computers for free. i just say "i dunno, i don't use windows"
[14:29] <hamitron> tbh, I'd feel happier if I had to pay for ubuntu
[14:29] <ali1234> if you make it so that they all want me to install ubuntu i will have to switch to *bsd
[14:30] <hamitron> hehe
[14:30] <diplo> aquarius: You tried any of Bryans software ?
[14:31] <ali1234> thing is it doesn't cost canonical anything to do this because they can just point to the support package but it costs the community who provide free support
[14:31] <aquarius> hamitron, well, one good way to support Ubuntu is to become a paying user of Ubuntu One, of course. :)
[14:31] <aquarius> diplo, I bought Linux Tycoon fairly recently. I haven't tried the development stuff (I'm happy with my own development environment :))
[14:31] <hamitron> I don't pay out for things, if others can get it for free
[14:31] <hamitron> ;)
[14:32] <hamitron> if I'm paying £10, others can too
[14:32] <aquarius> others *do* too... not sure I'm understanding you?
[14:32] <diplo> heh, keep debate trying his DE, but haven't yet.. ought to get linux tycoon just to see what it's like and to support the guy, been watching there stuff for years
[14:33] <hamitron> aquarius, I don't see why some should contribute, when others don't
[14:33] <hamitron> and it just makes me feel "why bother?"
[14:33] <diplo> Ooh SpaceX Dragon due to depart tomorrow and splash down
[14:33] <aquarius> hamitron, I am confused. No-one gets U1 for free (or everyone does, depending on your point of view). There's no them-and-us here?
[14:34] <diplo> Got me interested in space again
[14:34] <hamitron> aquarius, I'm talking about ubuntu :)
[14:34] <aquarius> hamitron, oh, right, gotcha. :)
[14:35] <kvarley> popey: Got a working image
[14:35] <hamitron> if I want a service, sure I'll pay for it. but not getting a service to subsidise free software, that many just use for free
[14:35] <kvarley> popey: Need to try and make it smaller, I want it to fit on a 256 MB card. Currently I don't think it will
[14:35] <popey> awesome!
[14:36] <kvarley> Indeed
[14:36] <aquarius> hamitron, oh, definitely. I certainly don't think that you should think of buying U1 just to subsidise Ubuntu development! Buy U1 because you like U1. :)
[14:36] <ali1234> it seems counter productive to buy something i don't want in order to support something that i do want which is free
[14:36] <hamitron> ali1234, exactly
[14:36] <aquarius> I don't think anyone's suggesting that you do that, are they? If I'm being misread as advocating that, then I'll rephrase. :)
[14:36] <ali1234> that goes for t-shirts, hats, and over priced memory sticks too
[14:37] <aquarius> popey, do you have thoughts on the macbook Ubuntu-in-vm-versus-baremetal question? I know you've had some experience here :)
[14:37] <aquarius> ali1234, I agree. What I bought from the canonical shop was notebooks, because I needed notebooks and I think our ones are really nice. :)
[14:38] <popey> aquarius: ask gmb
[14:38] <popey> i no longer have a MBP
[14:38] <aquarius> popey, aha, wisdom -- yeah, I know you moved away, just wondering what your previous thoughts were :)
[14:38] <aquarius> gmb, ping!
[14:38]  * hamitron congrats popey
[14:38] <popey> i still love the mbp, but only when it's running osx
[14:39] <popey> my thoughts where i was never truly happy about it on the bare metal
[14:39]  * hamitron withdraws his actions
[14:39] <popey> skippy touchpad, crappy nvidia, poor battery life
[14:39] <hamitron> they do look nice though
[14:39] <popey> there's a lot to like
[14:40] <aquarius> popey, k, that's my worry, indeed. Suggestions above are that Ubuntu doesn't work right in a VM either, so the implication here is that you're just shit out of luck if you've got an MBP and want to try Ubuntu, which rather scuppers my plan
[14:40] <popey> your plan?
[14:41] <aquarius> popey, <aquarius> Mac question: mate of mine has a macbook and wants to try Ubuntu. Should I suggest that he runs it on the metal with bootcamp, or in some sort of VM, and if so in which VM? He's an architect, so he'll be using OS X a lot -- this is not a one-step total-changeover migration, but I'd like him to try Ubuntu and see what he thinks, and he's interested in it aesthetically.
[14:41] <popey> its fine in a vm
[14:41] <popey> virtualbox
[14:41] <ali1234> unity doesn't work in current virtualbox, you get unity-2d instead
[14:42] <AlanBell> it does work in virtualbox
[14:42] <davmor2> ali1234: it does if you enable the 3d
[14:42] <popey> thats not my experience
[14:42] <ali1234> i have enabled 3d. it still doesn't work
[14:42] <popey> just install virtualbox-x11-guest package in the guest
[14:42] <AlanBell> you have to install virtualbox-ose-guest-x11 in the guest
[14:42] <AlanBell> and check the box
[14:42] <ali1234> that too
[14:42] <hamitron> I found unity-3d slow in vmware workstation, with the new drivers
[14:42] <popey> or a similarly named package ☺
[14:42] <popey> i have it working here
[14:43] <ali1234> basically you can expect, at the very least, to spend a few hours to a day tweaking it to get it to work
[14:43] <AlanBell> or it just works
[14:43] <davmor2> aquarius: I know a couple of devs that have Ubuntu running in vm on macs might not be mbp but they are happy with it
[14:43] <ali1234> yeah it just works after you install some random packages, reboot, and reconfigure the VM
[14:43] <ali1234> or, as in my case, it makes no difference at all
[14:44] <hamitron> isn't the idea of getting a Mac, to have a complete product anyway?
[14:44] <ali1234> no doubt any problems with bare metal could be resolved with roughly the same amount of effort
[14:44] <davmor2> ali1234: it works for me , popey and AlanBell I make the suggestion therefore that you missed a step :P
[14:44] <popey> his friend already has the mac
[14:44] <popey> so the goal maybe for aquarius to allow his friend to try ubuntu
[14:45] <hamitron> I guess
[14:45] <hamitron> :/
[14:45] <popey> given thats what he just said
[14:46] <aquarius> hamitron, indeed. He's already got a Mac, and he already uses OS X. I'd like him to try Ubuntu, and he's expressed an interest in doing so, but "spend a thousand pounds on a new computer" is too high a hurdle for him to jump. :)
[14:46] <ali1234> lol mac users think spending a thousand pounds on a computer is normal
[14:46] <hamitron> I can relate to that, been someone who hates spending money ;D
[14:46] <aquarius> *I* think spending a thousand pounds on a computer is normal.
[14:47] <ali1234> why?
[14:47] <ali1234> that better include a £600 monitor
[14:47] <hamitron> tbh, I'll spend upto £1600 still
[14:47] <hamitron> but it sure as hell better last at least 10 years ;D
[14:47] <popey> my latest computer setup was over 1000
[14:48] <popey> 700 for the laptop, and about 150 for the dock and 150 for the screen
[14:48] <aquarius> because I buy a computer for three years. I spend, roughly, twelve hours a day in front of it. That works out at a pound a day, in order to make my 12 hours be lovely rather than at best OK. That, to me, is a *superb* investment.
[14:48] <ali1234> so it does incude a £600 monitor then?
[14:48] <davmor2> my last laptop was 350 and my last pc update was 160 am I doing it all wrong?
[14:49]  * TheOpenSourcerer haz new phone :-)
[14:49] <aquarius> Someone who does some light photography would happily spend three or four hundred quid on a camera which they'll use once a week. I use my computer more than anything at all in my life other than my hands and cigarettes. I want it to be excellent.
[14:49] <aquarius> davmor2, if that does everything you want, not at all; you're fine :)
[14:50] <hamitron> hmmm, I bet coffee is more expensive per hour, than my comp..... thinking about it :/
[14:50] <aquarius> I wanted a machine which had great battery life and was very light and was very thin and looked beautiful in my opinion and ran Ubuntu. So I bought my machine, which cost nine hundred. Like I say, I think that's a worthwhile investment.
[14:50] <ali1234> oh
[14:50] <davmor2> aquarius: mind you I might treat myself to a new monitor that is nearly as expensive as my last pc upgrade :D
[14:50] <ali1234> you bought a desktop replacement laptop?
[14:51] <aquarius> davmor2, I've heard lots of people saying that buying a really good monitor is also a worthwhile investment. Mine was pretty cheap, and it's only 21"
[14:51] <aquarius> ali1234, I only have one machine, indeed; just the laptop.
[14:51] <AlanBell> my current laptop is the cheapest I have ever had at £350 ish, plus £40 for 8GB ram and £200 or so for an SSD, and I use a £150ish monitor with it
[14:51] <popey> oh, yeah, ssd, 200 quid
[14:52] <popey> mouse and keyboard free! :D
[14:52] <aquarius> back to the Mac thing: if we're of the collective opinion that the Ubuntu experience on an MBP isn't nice enough for non-technical people yet (it takes too much configuration, or it doesn't quite work right, or the hardware isn't well supported) then I am fine with that conclusion: I am happy to say to my mate that it's not ready for him yet. I'd *rather* do that than say "it is ready" and have it be crap for him,
[14:52] <aquarius> because then I'll have burned him and it'll be much harder to win him back later.
[14:53] <ali1234> it's like that everywhere
[14:53] <aquarius> but I do not know enough about this to answer that question, hence asking you guys because you're all clever. :P
[14:53] <ali1234> if you've been spoiled by a mac you're not going to get along with ubuntu
[14:54] <ali1234> basically unless they buy a computer with ubuntu preinstalled, it's not going to be easy enough for a typical mac user
[14:54] <AlanBell> not sure I agree with that
[14:54] <ali1234> if otoh you can make it through the installer and know how to use google, all the problems are trivial.. but the same can be said of any linux distro
[14:56] <hamitron> I agree with the point about not tainting their view on ubuntu with a poor experience, but dunno otherwise
[14:56] <hamitron> ;)
[14:57] <ali1234> as i said, the only way you'll actually know is if you try it out. because there's almost as many different mac hardware configurations as there are PCs
[14:57] <popey> oooh, i see a postal delivery van with my pi on it outside
[14:57]  * popey skips to the door
[14:57]  * hamitron grumbles
[14:58] <diplo> I want to upgrade SQLite on a old os, anyway of checking what might be dependant on it software wise ?
[14:58] <aquarius> if *I* could borrow his machine for a weekend and try it, I would, but I can't :)
[14:59] <aquarius> diplo, apt-cache rdepends sqlite (if you're upgrading sqlite v2).
[14:59] <hamitron> aquarius, I'd personally get him to boot off an external hdd
[14:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> I got a Galaxy S3 from the delivery van a short while ago. And a Galaxy 10.1 Tab too.
[14:59] <ali1234> actually i have two things i want to add
[14:59] <ali1234> firstly if you're waiting for it to be perfect you'll be waiting a long time
[14:59] <hamitron> then no harm if he doesn't like it
[14:59] <aquarius> diplo, apt-cache rdepends sqlite3 if you're on sqlite v3 already (but then it is very unlikely that an upgrade will break anything because it's a minor upgrade only)
[15:00] <aquarius> hamitron, that's why I was wondering about VMs.
[15:00] <ali1234> secondly, is the type of person who will throw a fit and never use ubuntu again at the very first problem, really the type of person you want to attract in the first place?
[15:00] <diplo> aquarius: I built the packages so I could break everything :D
[15:00] <diplo> But thanks, will look now
[15:00] <aquarius> diplo, oh. You're on your own, in that case. Soz ;-)
[15:00] <diplo> heh, Just covering my arse in backups is all
[15:01] <diplo> Want to make sure I can reinstall anything I break
[15:01] <diplo> If I break*
[15:01]  * hamitron would just backup *everything*
[15:01] <ali1234> diplo: you could do a global search for sqlite databases, then try to determine which software each belongs to :)
[15:01] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: I expect a full review of the samsung galaxy s3 by end of day with no less than a 1000 words ;)  It's great just won't cut it :)
[15:01]  * diplo doesn't have disc space
[15:01] <hamitron> :/
[15:01] <diplo> I did think that ali1234
[15:02] <ali1234> something like find / -exec file {}\; | grep sqlite
[15:02] <ali1234> then wait a *really* long time
[15:02] <ali1234> then lsof etc
[15:02] <diplo> do all Sqlite db's have to end in .db ?
[15:02] <diplo> Or just a preference
[15:03]  * diplo never touched SQLite till yesterday
[15:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> davmor2: Nope. Not enough time. After I've used it for a few weeks I might get round to it, but it wouldn't be fair IMHO to review it without actually using it for a while.
[15:03] <popey> I am inclined to think that an osx user will not think ubuntu is a step up, yet.
[15:04] <popey> especially on mac hardware
[15:04] <popey> however on a pc, they might
[15:04] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: hahahahaha enjoy
[15:04] <popey> i have a friend who has only macs in the house, she wanted a netbook for her daughter, but refuses to have windows
[15:04] <ali1234> diplo: no
[15:04] <popey> i installed ubuntu on it, works a treat
[15:06] <hamitron> time for tea and cakes
[15:45] <czajkowski> CAKE!
[15:46] <davmor2> czajkowski: calm down it's only and advert
[15:46] <czajkowski> need cak e
[15:46]  * AlanBell needs sleep
[15:46] <AlanBell> and cake
[15:48] <dwatkins> beware of cake... ;)
[15:48] <diplo> yum /me also needs sleep
[15:48] <diplo> arse!
[15:48] <kirrus> Now i'd quite like cake..
[15:48] <diplo> But I have promised to go on a 20 mile bike ride in 50mins :(
[15:48]  * kirrus wonders where the nearest decent cake dispensery is
[15:48] <dwatkins> diplo: I often see people use /me either in the middle of a line or in systems which don't support it, I didn't even notice it might be anything other than normal in your line
[15:49] <dwatkins> I have to cycle home, not really got a lot of choice about it. It's 5 miles.
[15:50] <diplo> dwatkins: I have to cycle home first as well, just shy of 5 miles
[15:50] <diplo> Then 20 mile bike ride, also did a 10 mile pub walk last night and a mile each way on my bike
[15:50] <diplo> For me this is fitness++
[15:51] <diplo> I'm normally hogging the sofa
[15:51] <diplo> :)
[15:51] <dwatkins> Yeah, I know what you mean - I'm cycling to work to a) save money and b) get fit
[15:52] <dwatkins> I ordered an xbox game yesterday, which I'll have to cycle for two weeks to afford, in a sense.
[15:52] <dwatkins> (each day cycled saves me about 1.40 GBP in diesel)
[15:53] <dwatkins> this doesn't take wear-and-tear on the car into account, of course.
[15:53] <diplo> I've not worked mine out, just decided that the tanks been kinda empty recently and it's lovely whether so I ought to make the most of it, downside is I'm making up for Calories burnt by drinking beer on these rides
[15:53] <diplo> :P
[15:57] <dwatkins> yeah, I tend to get home from cycling to and from work and get a couple beers on the way.
[15:59] <diplo> Right, talking of home \o/
[16:00] <diplo> Let's not think about the cycling part
[16:14] <Azelphur> O.O we just had some epic monster monsoon, hail everywhere, took a tile off our roof
[16:16] <andylockran> vdfgsdhowdy
[16:16] <andylockran> where's that Azelphur
[16:16] <Azelphur> andylockran: margate
[16:16] <andylockran> sat in Manchester Piccadilly and the weather outside is gorgeous
[16:16] <andylockran> heading down to Euston on the 18.35
[16:16] <andylockran> I miss Manchester a little bit
[16:18] <BigRedS> dwatkins: nor the cost spent on the bike, though :)
[16:18] <BigRedS> I used to love seeing people start cycling in marchish to save money, and notice it becoming a horrendously expsnsive hobby for them come july
[16:18] <Azelphur> I literally sprinted across the street to get back to my house and close the window (Was at neighbours) and by the time I made it across the street I was completely soaked through and through
[16:18] <Azelphur> just for crossing the road, lol
[16:19] <Azelphur> my computers next to the window so have to close it when it rains :p
[16:20] <oimon> to join my union costs £18 per month LOL
[16:20] <oimon> what a rip off
[16:36] <Azelphur> https://twitter.com/Azelphur/status/207871270493229056/photo/1 remains of my roof xD
[16:39] <davmor2> MooDoo: there is and amd64 app being released to USC that is early in the release process that you might be interested in called "black silk"  as soon as it is published I'll let you know
[16:41] <popey> sounds rude
[16:42] <davmor2> popey: no it just makes black and white photography out of colour ones really nicely
[17:01]  * AlanBell wonders why "black silk" would be potentially rude
[17:01] <AlanBell> maybe I lack imagination
[17:34] <dwatkins> BigRedS: true, but I had the bike anyway ;) I'm planning on getting a new one once I start cycling regularly, however.
[17:36] <dwatkins> BigRedS: why did it get expensive in summer?
[18:05] <BigRedS> dwatkins: it just takes a few months for it to go from tool-for-commuting-on to expensive-hobby
[18:06] <BigRedS> and it's normally spring when people start riding again
[18:07] <dwatkins> ah I see, BigRedS - I'm already pondering how much I should spend, what kind of disc brakes, etc. so I guess I'm a good example of that :)
[18:07] <BigRedS> haha, yeah - where are you commuting? Disk brakes don't like cities
[18:08] <BigRedS> when you get oil on disk brake pads they stop working so well. We used to find (in London) that this equated to a few month's commuting in London air....
[18:11] <dwatkins> oh wow, I see
[18:12] <dwatkins> I live in Edinburgh, and most of my commute is along the canal.
[18:12] <dwatkins> I wonder how London affects non-disc brakes - friend of mine is living and studying there.
[18:15] <MartijnVdS> magnetic brakes!
[18:16] <kvarley> popey: http://kvarley.co.uk/RaspberryPi/OpenELEC/ - The .img of OpenELEC with XBMC is up there now hosted on  Ubuntu One =]
[18:16] <popey> sweeeet!
[18:16] <popey> I'm building ubuntu packages for my pi now
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> pibuntu?
[18:17] <popey> heh
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> I wonder how Unity performs on it
[18:17] <BigRedS> dwatkins: not so bad in summer. Can get through a set of pads in a few day's rain though
[18:17] <BigRedS> there really are several good reasons for the rise in popularity of fixies
[18:17] <popey> dount it will at all
[18:18] <popey> only 256MB RAM
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> popey: it has 3d acceleration
[18:18] <dwatkins> BigRedS: wow, didn't realise they could wear down so fast
[18:18] <popey> not sure I have enough lifetimes to compile unity for it :D
[18:18] <dwatkins> popey: I'd be surprised if it were powerful, sadly
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> popey: your children can continue the good work
[18:18] <dwatkins> *powerful enough
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> popey: also, cross-compiling
[18:19] <dwatkins> You can cross-compile for the RaspPi, though.
[18:19] <popey> i am
[18:19] <popey> on two i7s
[18:19] <kvarley> popey: POWERRRRRR
[18:19] <dwatkins> nice
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> -j16
[18:20] <dwatkins> I have a core i7 in my laptop at work, the OS sees 8 cores. I'm ashamed that I just use it for reading e-mails and browsing the web mostly, so I run vmware on it sometimes to make sure it doesn't get bored.
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: they give us ridiculously overpowered machines like that as well
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> while we do all of our work on one of the 32-core 128GB servers in the DC
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> \o/ ssh -X + gvim
[18:22]  * dwatkins grins
[18:23] <dwatkins> I used to work with clusters, ones which fill a sizeable room and have a couple petabytes of storage on the back row - they share them out to universities and chemical/oil companies, though
[18:36] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: the end of that wish you were here, docu, is very sad, we knew it, but they never said.
[18:41] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: The Syd Barrett story?
[18:41] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: I watched http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01j2fcq yesterday
[18:41] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: the wish you were here, how they descibed syd at the end.
[18:43] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: it is well documented, that syd came to hear them record wish you were here album, but not said in the way they there.
[18:44] <brobostigon> said*
[18:46] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: I didn't see it :|
[18:46] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: :(, you pointed me at it, as i forgot.
[18:47] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: yeah but it was on very late.. and somehow my "record satellite" script broke
[18:47] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: :( not good.
[18:47] <MartijnVdS> I fixed it now, but too late
[18:47] <MartijnVdS> reboot had shuffled around DVB device numbers
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> (DVB-T, DVB-S)
[18:48] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: yes, it was very emotional,
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> so it tried to record from DVB-T 8-)
[18:48] <brobostigon> ah.
[19:05] <ahayzen> Question: Hi, I've been using unity with autohide set to ON. I just brought up the HUD and you get a ~3px wide line down the left side (looks like the dash border) - I guess because the launcher isn't there the border is overflowing into the desktop. Is that supposed to happen or should I report a bug? Thanks, Andy
[19:25] <jacobw> i'm really liking unity in 12.04 :)
[19:25] <jacobw> <bill hicks>a positive unity story!</bill hicks>
[19:46] <popey> jacobw: thats good to hear
[19:49] <MartijnVdS> it's not getting in my way at least :P
[19:49] <MartijnVdS> well the HUD is, but that's disableable
[19:51] <MartijnVdS> (nice word, disableable)
[19:51] <AlanBell> easily turn on and offable
[19:51] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: yes, like that :)
[20:02] <directhex> wharrgarbl
[20:03] <brobostigon> directhex: what is your opinion on qnx.?
[20:03] <directhex> brobostigon, covered in bees
[20:04] <brobostigon> directhex: that is illogical,
[20:05] <brobostigon> software cannot be covered in bees.
[20:05] <directhex> clearly you've never seen an embedded arm vendor's kernel patches
[20:05] <directhex> bees as far as the eye can see
[20:05] <ali1234> heheheh
[20:05] <brobostigon> directhex: i have not, no.
[20:06] <ali1234> think yourself lucky to even get patches
[20:10] <dwatkins> directhex: sounds like a reference to Invader Zim (covered in bees)
[20:10] <shauno> eddie izzard surely?
[20:11] <brobostigon> directhex: ok, what about blackberry's qnx implementation, ?
[20:11] <dwatkins> ah, didn't know that
[20:12] <dwatkins> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs-tl6GBOBo explains all about this 'covered in bees' reference :)
[20:13] <directhex> brobostigon, ultimately qnx is a decent RTOS, but i'm confused as to why you'd use an RTOS on a mobile phone, and RIM is in freefall so i'm not sure their OS has much life left. BBX needed to happen several years earlier
[20:13] <directhex> is it even shipping on phones yet, or just the playbook?
[20:13] <penguin42> dwatkins: I was assuming it was a reference to blackberreees
[20:13] <dwatkins> penguin42: ahhhh
[20:14] <brobostigon> directhex: from what i have read, and as they advertise, os10, will appear on the playbook.
[20:15] <directhex> brobostigon, but the playbook was a failure out of the door. and blackberry os, on phones, is junk. so what do we have?
[20:16] <brobostigon> directhex: why was the playbook a failiure. it seems like fairly good hw from my view.
[20:18] <brobostigon> directhex: aswell, as from what i have read, wihtin their qnx implementation,  alot of things have been fixed.
[20:20] <directhex> brobostigon, nobody bought them, even when they halved the price?
[20:20] <directhex> and RIM shares are tumbling
[20:22] <brobostigon> directhex: very true, yes.but i was wondering as to the hw, and their qnx implementation. than the rest of the company.
[20:22] <directhex> fine, then
[20:22] <directhex> good Qt platform
[20:23] <brobostigon> yes.
[20:23] <directhex> well, the qt hackers i know say it's a good qt platform, anyway
[20:24] <directhex> good enough that they're dumping the android layer in favour of native qt apps
[20:24] <brobostigon> intereting.
[20:24] <brobostigon> ok.
[20:28] <brobostigon> directhex: i am thinking about my own birthday pressie to myself, a new toy, or an acoustic drum kit.
[20:30] <MartijnVdS> your neighbors will love you :P
[20:30] <brobostigon> yeah, :)
[20:31] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: but they do already, with the bass tube i have,
[20:31] <MartijnVdS> haha :)
[20:32] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: my dad drove up once, and he said, and i quote, he could hear it, before he stepped out of the car.
[20:36] <directhex> brobostigon, hear it, or feel the vibrations in his kidneys? :p
[20:36] <brobostigon> directhex: yeah.
[20:42] <dogmatic69> anyone have creative ideas for running cat5 from the lounge (ground floor) to the loft (2nd story)
[20:42] <directhex> dogmatic69, drill a hole in the ceiling?
[20:43] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: 16mm pipe?
[20:43] <dogmatic69> directhex: its like a foot of concrete i think
[20:43] <MartijnVdS> (PVC)
[20:43] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS: what do I do with the pipe then?
[20:43] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: good point
[20:43]  * dogmatic69 bought outside-duty cat5
[20:44] <MartijnVdS> We used to stick ethernet cable next to the central heating pipes back home
[20:44] <dogmatic69> was thinking of running it up the wall out side
[20:44] <ali1234> there's a foot of concrete between the ground floor and the loft?
[20:44] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS: that will slow down my downloads... :P
[20:44] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: sounds like a normal house to me
[20:44] <directhex> dogmatic69,  http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7094/6999689228_fc7c5a0093_o_d.jpg
[20:44] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: how?
[20:44] <ali1234> do you live in a nuclear bunker?
[20:44] <dogmatic69> ali1234: no, first and ground
[20:45] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: no central heating then?
[20:45] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS: when stuff is cold, its more dense. travels faster. (marginal i know)
[20:45] <dogmatic69> :P
[20:45] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: so run coolant though the pipes
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> who needs heat when you have a 500W PC :P
[20:46] <dogmatic69> GF <3's central heating... it can be 25'C and its on
[20:46] <dogmatic69> *750w + 2 blade servers :)
[20:47] <dogmatic69> Don't even have a ladder that can reach for attaching the cat5 outside.
[20:48] <MartijnVdS> however, ladders like that do exist and are for sale
[20:48] <MartijnVdS> or scissor lifts, for rent
[20:48] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: ethernet over power or wifi?
[20:48] <AlanBell> wifi with wires at both ends perhaps
[20:48] <MartijnVdS> I have a 30cm wall
[20:49] <MartijnVdS> just got a huge drill and made a hole for 4x cat5
[20:49] <MartijnVdS> cat5e really
[20:49] <MartijnVdS> this is 1969 concrete so it's quite hard too
[20:49] <dogmatic69> I am trying to get away from wifi. My office is on the first floor and does not get good signal, and its about 20 feet max away.
[20:49] <dogmatic69> I got a extender and that does not work too good either
[20:50] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: http://www.wikihow.com/Drill-Into-Concrete
[20:50] <dogmatic69> also I am mounting things from the blades (also on wifi atm) and when the signal drops my desktop will almost crash
[20:51] <popey> i put my access point in the middle of the house
[20:51] <popey> and it's plugged into an ethernet-over-power device with another connected in my office to the internet box
[20:51] <popey> job done, wifi coverage over the whole house
[20:51] <directhex> sleeeepy
[20:51]  * MartijnVdS has a small house, so an AP anywhere gives enough coverage
[20:51] <popey> heh
[20:51] <MartijnVdS> especially on 5GHz, where I'm the first ;)
[20:52] <popey> i dont have a big house, its just my main access point is in the very corner, opposite to the bedroom ☺
[20:52] <popey> you can sometimes _just_ get a signal
[20:52] <MartijnVdS> popey: get a higher-power AP :)
[20:53]  * MartijnVdS has a Linksys E3200
[20:53] <popey> oh I'm fine now with my netgear wndr3700 + ddwrt
[20:53] <dogmatic69> one big problem is sky.
[20:54] <dogmatic69> complete rubbish
[20:54] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: come to nl.. we have good ISPs
[20:54] <popey> \o/ virgin
[20:55] <dogmatic69> Called sky to cancel 2 months ago...
[20:55] <dogmatic69> waiting for some number in the post
[20:55] <Azelphur> random question, how on earth can it hail when the temperature outside is as warm as it is o.O
[20:56] <dogmatic69> Azelphur: the hail is not formed on the ground :)
[20:56] <Azelphur> I guess, the temperature difference between ground and air must have been insane
[20:56] <dogmatic69> the warmth might actually help it
[20:56] <Azelphur> yea, maybe that's why the weather went so nuts
[20:57] <dogmatic69> hail forms when drops freeze, hit warm air and rise again. repeat until to large to float any more
[20:57] <Azelphur> ah, that'd explain it then :)
[20:58] <dogmatic69> I'm no meteorologist but enjoyed geography at school
[20:59] <dogmatic69> wiki says the ideal temp is -13'C up to, so almost 50'C difference
[21:02] <Azelphur> fun
[21:02] <Azelphur> I guess we had a bit of a perfect storm then, all the ice built up and came down at the same time
[22:13] <davmor2> gord: no co-working space tomorrow, by the sound of it it's only me going to be there


[04:31] <mup> Bug #1725908 opened: deleting user with static ip mappings throws 500 <MAAS:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1725908>


[16:00] <schopin> Hi! It seems the s390x builders are all more or less broken?
[16:07] <luispm> Howdy. Is it a known-ish issue trying to login to launchpad, getting to the "information share" page and then running into a Oops?
[16:07] <luispm> Maybe a browser-specific issue (using brave here).
[16:12] <cjwatson> schopin: I'm nearly out of time for today, so probably worth raising with ~is internally
[16:12] <cjwatson> luispm: do you have an OOPS ID?
[16:12] <luispm> cjwatson, Many! Last one is OOPS-31ea42b320a9f23be880f7b89580fa38.
[16:13] <luispm> Sometimes brave blocks some scripting bits that make pages misbehave, so might be an issue on my end. But I thought I'd check.
[16:15] <cjwatson> luispm: This was account-specific - you ran into https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/1607242 due to LP previously having seen your email address while importing comments from a bug tracker some time before you tried to create a proper LP account.  I've fixed your account now, so try again.
[16:15] -ubottu:#launchpad- Launchpad bug 1607242 in Launchpad itself "Logging into a placeholder person OOPSes if email address already on another person" [Critical, Triaged]
[16:18] <luispm> cjwatson, Ah, wonderful. Thanks a lot for the quick fix.
[17:37] <cjwatson> s390x still isn't great, but is a bit less completely hosed.
[19:08] <cjwatson> bos02-s390x much better now, IS has fixed it


[09:07] <DJones> popey: Not having seen "Howie" in -ik before, but the opening line "I have returned" reminds me very much of Phineas/Ferb etc
[09:08] <popey> it is him
[09:08] <DJones> I got that impression
[09:08] <popey> I asked him when he turned up earlier in the week, stands out a mile
[09:09] <DJones> Ah well, and I thought we were doing quite well not to have any visits for ages
[09:09] <popey> indeed
[09:30] <Howie> ok better now?
[09:30] <popey> this is the right channel for issues relating to bans in loco channels, yes.
[09:31] <Howie> so when will this ban be over?
[09:32] <AlanBell> o/
[09:32] <Howie> AlanBell yes another one needs dealing with
[09:33] <popey> Howie: Do you know why you were removed frmo the channel?
[09:33] <popey> *from
[09:33] <Howie> because I was mucking about?
[09:33] <popey> Not quite.
[09:34] <popey> You arrived asking for support.
[09:34] <popey> People give up their time to give you support.
[09:34] <popey> It turns out you're lying. Again.
[09:34] <popey> Wasting people's time.
[09:35] <popey> It's not the first time, it's not even the 3rd or 4th time. You've been kicked from the channel as bolt, ferb, phineas...
[09:35] <Howie> I did have a problem but felt like making joke.out of it at the end
[09:35] <popey> This is unaccaptable
[09:35] <popey> There is an official support channel, which is #ubuntu
[09:35] <popey> You can get support there, but be warned the tolerance level for your "humour" is considerably lower than that of #ubuntu-uk
[09:36] <popey> I am unwilling to lift any bans on you in #ubuntu-uk and will ban on sight if I see you attempting to evade that ban.
[09:38] <Howie> and I want the ban lifted (might hack irc if worst comes to worst) thats how fed up I am
[09:38] <AlanBell> I fully support popey in this ban
[09:38] <AlanBell> it isn't on to waste people's time who are trying to help
[09:38] <DJones> Howie: Threatening that doesn't give anybody any ideas that they might lift the ban
[09:39] <Howie> I know and I understand that
[09:39] <AlanBell> there are plenty of other channels that you are not banned in
[09:39] <DJones> And having seen that threat, I agree with popey & AlanBell, the ban shouldn't be lifted for the forseable future
[09:39] <elky> Does he mean he's going to hack into freenode, or ban evade. Not that it matters, both can get him klined...
[09:41] <Howie> once again Im.joking, Im.like that I joke but its hard to.see it in.Txt
[09:41] <elky> Those kinds of jokes are very inappropriate.
[09:42] <k1l> Howie: what about you try another linux community and give yourself a new start there? your reputation is well ruined here with ban evading lots of time and threatenings.
[09:42] <Howie> oh, I didnt relise that thanis elky
[09:43] <Howie> see now I know where I went wrong
[09:43] <Howie> I dont know any other channels
[09:43] <popey> You're well aware where you go wrong. We have done this dance at least 3 times before.  Take responsibility for your actions and above all, grow up.
[09:44] <Howie> please Im only 14
[09:44] <popey> Yet you have a full time job in a warehouse?
[09:45] <popey> Which of those two is a lie?
[09:45] <Howie> and I have brain damage
[09:45] <popey> Enough.
[09:45] <Tm_T> all this is irrelevant
[09:45] <ikonia> popey: I like firm popey
[09:45] <elky> 14 is old enough to have mens rea.
[09:46] <Howie> the job thing is me doing role play
[09:46] <popey> I'm done here.
[09:46] <DJones> Howie: Enough lies and random stories, I doubt anybody who's read them will believe anything you say
[09:47] <Howie> but some are true and some arnt
[09:48] <Howie> Im.actually.admitting I do.lie.allot.to make myself.sound. more grone up than I am
[09:49] <Howie> thats why I do it
[09:49] <elky> I don't think anything you say now is going to help your situation today.
[09:50] <Howie> I want to help the situation today
[09:51] <Howie> but I dont know how to
[09:51] <elky> You can't. Another day perhaps, but definitely not today.
[09:52] <Howie> fine, see you tomorrow
[09:52] <DJones> Howie: Myself, popey and AlanBell have all said the ban stands and won't be removed. Thats not going to change in the foreseable future.  I would suggest you use other linux/ubuntu support channels for a while and demonstrate that you can adhere to the rules of the channels
[09:52] <Howie> ok will do
[10:05] <elky> he's now in #defocus
[10:05] <elky> if he manages to get himself banned from there, then he's truely exceptional
[10:05] <Gary> \o/
[10:09] <DJones> I'm tempted to join just watch the fireworks
[10:12] <jpds> DJones: It's not November 5th.
[10:12] <elky> hah
[10:44] <popey> he was in #defocus a lot
[10:44] <popey> would join as two people and have a conversation