[00:04] <fta> because it's the default :)
[00:11] <gnomefre1k> will --enable-static fix the addon issue in tbird? i may build it here for local use i miss enigmail?
[00:18] <gnomefre1k> sorry i meant shared
[00:19] <Jazzva> gnomefreak: if it's enabled by default, I suppose it won't change anything if you explicitly state --enable-shared...
[00:20] <gnomefre1k> Jazzva: static is default shared is what mozilla tells us to do
[00:20] <gnomefre1k> yes confusing if you ask me
[00:25] <fta> shared is default, unless you ask for static, which we don't, so all is shared for us
[00:28] <gnomefreak> didnt the bug say to build with shared and you replied that you only build with static?
[00:29] <fta> the opposite
[00:29] <gnomefreak> ah
[00:29] <gnomefreak> but why would mozilla tell you to build non-default if they build with default
[00:29] <gnomefreak> i never did get that when i read bug
[00:31] <fta> but this bug is a big misunderstanding, i wanted make install to do something, he understood i wanted to build the mozilla installer, which i can't care less about
[00:31] <fta> part of the confusion could be that i've used package-static as file name
[00:31] <fta> but it's not related to the addons issue anyway
[00:32] <fta> i haven't investigated that, i thought asac would, apparently he doesn't care about tb3
[00:33] <fta> and i'm no longer using tb* so it doesn't help
[00:33] <fta> i've spent a lot of time on songbird
[00:35] <fta> but reading latest comment from asac in the songbird packaging bug, it seems to me he doesn't want this package either
[00:35] <fta> so like for sm2, i'm all by myself
[00:36] <fta> feel free to help, all those branches are in ~mt
[00:43] <gnomefreak> i can do that :) if you need something dont forget to ask if i dont already know about it
[00:43] <gnomefreak> asac_: ummm can you stay connected long enough to let me know what we are doing with ff and dapper?
[00:43] <gnomefreak> i ran into a dapper bug :(
[00:44] <gnomefreak> fta: support+dapper+firefox?
[01:01] <asac_> gnomefreak: ?
[01:01] <gnomefreak> bug149611
[01:01] <gnomefreak> bug 149611
[01:01] <gnomefreak> its dapper+firefox 1.5
[01:02] <gnomefreak> do we say we nologer support firefox for dapper?
[01:02] <gnomefreak> 1.5 or 2.0
[01:02] <asac_> no ... we support it
[01:02] <gnomefreak> we suport 1.5?
[01:03] <asac_> yes
[01:03] <gnomefreak> that would mean we just patch it no security updatess
[01:13] <asac> gnomefreak: we provide security updates ;)
[01:13] <asac> thats how we support it
[01:13] <asac> if there are critical regressions due to those security backports we fix them too
[01:13] <asac> everything else is pretty much wontfix
[01:13] <gnomefreak> ok good night atleast for a couple of hours. sorry for your email boxes
[01:13] <gnomefreak> asac: ok
[01:14]  * gnomefreak needs to set up mutt or procmail or something tested based someday :)
[01:14] <gnomefreak> ok night ladies and gents
[01:23] <asac_> i really dont understand what bug 206884 is about
[03:26] <gnomefreak> asac: from what it looks like he thinks default encoding for firefox should beISO8859-1 but its using UTF8
[03:28] <gnomefreak> asac: that is the exact reason in ff3 go to view > Chariter encoding ISO8859-1 is not in there and its set to UTF-8 by default
[03:41] <fta> really ? http://www.sofaraway.org/ubuntu/tmp/encoding.png
[03:42] <gnomefreak> even i dont have all that in menu
[03:43] <gnomefreak> i only have a couple of them
[03:43] <gnomefreak> is there a keycommbo for screenshot?
[03:44] <fta> printscreen
[03:44] <fta> or altgr printscreen (here) for just the window
[03:44] <fta> but you wont capture the menu
[03:44] <fta> you need a delay
[03:44] <fta> cu, it's late here
[03:45] <gnomefreak> i see them now :(
[03:45] <gnomefreak> fta: night
[14:22] <fta> DarkMageZ, are you the same dmz who requested my songbird source package ?
[15:14] <DarkMageZ> fta, yes ッ
[15:44] <DarkMageZ> fta, please see lp bug #123934 & #159691 as my reference demonstrating some knowledge of the packaging system. if that's what was holding you back from just replying to the email :P
[17:02] <fta_> hm, he's gone
[17:05] <fta_> jcastro, ping
[17:08] <jcastro> fta_: yo
[17:09] <fta_> jcastro, hi, could please re-assign https://edge.launchpad.net/songbird to mozillateam so i can edit that page ?
[17:09] <jcastro> sure
[17:09] <fta_> as it's mozilla related, i think it makes sense
[17:10] <fta_> thanks :)
[17:38] <fta> i've published my branch for songbird in case someone is interested: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/songbird/songbird.head
[19:19] <gnomefreak> 123 and counting :)
[19:23] <fta> ?
[19:31] <gnomefreak> old firefox-2 bugs
[19:31] <gnomefreak> [reed]: we have a date for EOSL for ff 2?
[19:32] <[reed]> 6 months after Fx3
[19:32] <gnomefreak> 6 weeks you mean?
[19:33] <gnomefreak> security updates stop around x.0.0.15-16 i thought
[19:34] <[reed]> ?
[19:34] <[reed]> Firefox 2 will EOL 6 months after Firefox 3 is released.
[19:35] <gnomefreak> i saw 6 weeks in some post on google but if its 6 months wtf am i doing this for
[19:36] <[reed]> lol
[19:36] <gnomefreak> asac: we still have ~7months at best for support of 2.0
[19:37] <gnomefreak> http://markmail.org/message/rogxjohsrb6sw2yq
[19:37] <gnomefreak> i didnt say i believed it but when you said 6 it hit me maybe hes right
[19:37] <gnomefreak> well i closed over 160 bugs for no reason this is not gonna be good
[19:38] <gnomefreak> make that right around 300
[19:38] <gnomefreak> 200
[19:38] <gnomefreak> i have 120 and started at ~330
[19:40]  * gnomefreak thinks on how to re word my statment for bugs
[19:44] <gnomefreak> i think i was ablet o reword it :)
[20:23] <gnomefreak> asac: please set ISO889-1 default for all pages no matter what the encoding is, this guy is really working on my nerves, one site ff sets to UTF-8 and he has to write multiple bugs on the issue because noone has a clue what he is ranting about
[20:29]  * gnomefreak gone for a while
[21:54] <alex_mayorga> Hello all, are there or would there be FF3 nightly .deb(s)?
[21:55] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: not really nightly at this point
[21:55] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: weekly is about rigth for this time of builod
[21:55] <gnomefreak> build
[21:55] <alex_mayorga> gnomefreak what's the repository for that weekly build?
[21:56]  * gnomefreak goes to look
[21:56] <gnomefreak> i dont remember his PPA off hand and this might change
[21:56] <gnomefreak> oh shit
[21:57] <gnomefreak> thats what he meant
[21:57] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: you might have to wait a few hours
[21:58] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: here they are be very careful as other apps may want to update as well and some are not close to stable
[21:58] <gnomefreak> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/fta/ubuntu hardy main
[21:58] <gnomefreak> deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/fta/ubuntu hardy main
[21:58] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: im not sure if they will work for next 2 hours or so since LP is going down
[21:59] <alex_mayorga> I already use that one, so I was pretty much on track, thanks
[21:59] <alex_mayorga> yes it updates my miro too, which is not bad I think
[21:59] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: yes thats latest and greatest at this moment. was tere something you were looking for?
[22:00] <alex_mayorga> gnomefreak, thanks
[22:00] <gnomefreak> s/there/tere
[22:00] <alex_mayorga> just the good old, "the newer, the better" :)
[22:00] <alex_mayorga> has ubuntu took much heat for shipping with FF3b5?
[22:00] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: the one you are running is next release for Mozilla
[22:01] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: yes but we did the best of 2 evils
[22:01]  * gnomefreak has that under control :)
[22:08] <fta> hm, lp down, can't edit the wiki either
[22:15] <gnomefreak> yes
[22:16] <gnomefreak> will be down 2 hours
[22:16] <gnomefreak> started 15 minutes ago
[22:16] <gnomefreak> fta: they have been talking about it all week in email
[22:16] <gnomefreak> wiki isnt on LP you should be fine editing it
[22:16] <gnomefreak> oh shit
[22:17] <gnomefreak> wtf is wiki down for
[22:17] <fta> nope, read only
[22:17] <fta> i guess user database is from lp
[22:17] <gnomefreak> i see
[22:18] <gnomefreak> fta: am i here?
[22:19] <fta> yes :)
[22:19] <gnomefreak> for some reason when pasting the warning it uses /The
[22:19] <gnomefreak> LaserJock > gnomefreak: yeah, wiki is authenticated via Launchpad
[22:20] <gnomefreak> but PPA's work
[22:23] <fta> and bzr ?
[22:23] <fta> nope
[22:23] <fta> Using saved location<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:23] <fta> ssh: connect to host bazaar.launchpad.net port 22: Connection refused
[22:24] <alex_mayorga> Is there a nice way to "kill" firefox when it becomes non responsive?
[22:25] <fta> [reed], there's no CVS tag for RC1 ?
[22:26] <fta> alex_mayorga, nope, the cross on top right of the window, then say kill, it should work most of the time
[22:27] <alex_mayorga> fta even that wont work, so I guess is kill -3 right?
[22:28] <fta> try -15 is nicer, then last resort -9
[22:28] <alex_mayorga> never mind, looks like a 1 pixel dialog was created right in the center of the FF window, once I resized it and closed it FF went away, strange
[22:28] <alex_mayorga> I'll see if I can reproduce it
[22:28] <fta> oh, you just upgraded ?
[22:29] <alex_mayorga> moments ago from your PPA, is it broken?
[22:29] <fta> sounds like a ff3/xul upgrade without restart
[22:29] <fta> no
[22:29] <alex_mayorga> fta shall I log off and back in?
[22:29] <fta> it's a know ungraceful upgrade of all mozilla products
[22:29] <fta> no, just quit ff and restart it
[22:30] <alex_mayorga> wow, I've got a new license, so release is close by?
[22:30] <fta> eheh, the bzr attempt a few minutes ago was to prevent that license to popup
[22:31] <fta> yes, a RC is close
[22:32] <fta> "Assuming no new issues are found today the build team will start official prep work for Release Candidate 1 (RC1) tomorrow. QA will start their extensive RC1 test pass on Monday. If all goes well we should have the Release Candidate publicly available in late May. "
[22:33] <fta> if there's a CVS tag for this RC1, i can release a preview to my ppa
[22:37] <fta> hm, the last i see is THUNDERBIRD_3_0a1_BUILD1 / THUNDERBIRD_3_0a1_RELEASE
[22:38] <fta> no idea what UPDATE_PACKAGING_R4 and GECKO19_20080506_RELBRANCH are..
[22:38] <fta> [reed], ^^ ?
[22:39] <fta> "RC1 is intended for wider scale public testing. Our 1.2M+ active beta users will automatically get updated to RC1 when it is released. If no new showstopper issues are found in RC1 it will become Firefox 3 final. If we find any critical issues we will continue to release new Release Candidates until we are ready for final ship"
[22:46] <alex_mayorga> yeah!! FF3 is coming
[22:47] <alex_mayorga> honestly I've yet have to see a show stopper myself
[23:27] <gnomefreak> alex_mayorga: there were a few blockers not sure how many are left but i think i still have link
[23:27] <gnomefreak> ah only 3
[23:28] <gnomefreak> that was atleast 15 a few weeks ago
[23:29] <gnomefreak> fta: yeah meant to tell you it was still there this week
[23:30] <gnomefreak> fta: LP is back online i think
[23:30] <gnomefreak> yay
[23:30] <fta> what was still there?
[23:31] <gnomefreak> the license
[23:31] <fta> yes, i've just committed the fix
[23:34] <fta> and... pushed to my ppa. give it 15 min to be there
[23:45] <gnomefreak> k
[23:46] <gnomefreak> new libc6
[23:46] <gnomefreak> fta: can we make tabs opened in firefox not take focus
[23:46] <gnomefreak> main widow focus is good but tabs yuck
[23:48] <gnomefreak> never new how much pidgin looks like gajim
[23:49] <gnomefreak> other than branding they look exactly alike
[23:50] <fta> did you try to toggle browser.tabs.loadDivertedInBackground ?
[23:51] <gnomefreak> no i can but still default shount interupt your work like that
[23:55] <fta> i won't change that in ff3, it's more for ubufox
[23:55] <fta> but it's usability, so people will never agree
[23:56] <fta> i prefer the tab to raise, but i don't want the window to raise or change desktop or the focus to be stolen
[23:56] <fta> it's all fine here. but i had to drop ubufox because of that
[23:59] <fta> did you read ?


[00:59] <bryceh> morning RAOF
[00:59] <RAOF> bryceh: Good morning!
[01:04] <bjsnider> it is not the morning
[01:05] <RAOF> Not anymore, no.
[12:51] <jdub> hey gang
[12:51] <jdub> i'm poking around in launchpad to see if a bug is already filed about this
[12:52] <jdub> my i965 isn't getting hardware gl love
[12:52] <jdub> a bit of apparently salient info:
[12:52] <jdub> $ LIBGL_DEBUG=verbose glxinfo 2>&1 | grep error
[12:52] <jdub> libGL error: dlopen /usr/lib/dri/i965_dri.so failed (/usr/lib/dri/i965_dri.so: undefined symbol: _mesa_meta_clear)
[12:52] <jdub> libGL error: unable to load driver: i965_dri.so
[12:52] <jdub> libGL error: driver pointer missing
[12:52] <jdub>
[12:53] <jdub> hmm
[12:53] <jdub> think i may have figured it out
[12:54] <jdub> yay, looks like i had some evil meta debs from elsewhere installed
[12:55] <jdub> thanks for providing the counselling couch
[12:55] <jdub> ;)
[16:32] <stefanlsd> heys! really appreciate the nouveau drivers in lucid, but need the propietry drivers for some stuff. cant load it since it seems the frame buffer takes ownership of the device and nvidia-current module says no device found. cant find any documentation on how to disable it, any ideas pls?
[16:35] <stefanlsd> best way i've found for now is to boot -15 kernel, which isnt great :)
[16:36] <jcristau> stefanlsd: echo blacklist nouveau > /etc/modprobe.d/nvidia.conf
[16:36] <jcristau> then update-initramfs
[16:38] <stefanlsd> jcristau: thanks. will give it a try!
[16:39] <tseliot> jcristau, stefanlsd: my packages already do that
[16:40] <johanbr> stefanlsd, removing plymouth and/or booting without the "splash" kernel option may also help
[16:41] <stefanlsd> tseliot: is you package new, cause i just noticed i already have it black listed in there, and about 10 minutes ago i just ran the system / hardware drivers and enabled nvidia
[16:41] <stefanlsd> johanbr: removed splash doesnt, help, can try remove plymouth
[16:41] <tseliot> stefanlsd: no, it's not new. Did you reboot?
[16:44] <bjsnider> it was new 2 months ago
[16:44] <stefanlsd> tseliot: yeah, every day :)  relevant part of dmesg in pastebin   http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/393390/
[16:45] <tseliot> stefanlsd: I mean, after installing nvidia
[16:45] <stefanlsd> tseliot: doesnt seem like it removes it in the initrd. but yeah, i've always had nvidia installed. im gonna reboot right now just to confirm, brb
[16:46] <bjsnider> i wonder what jockey says is going on in his case
[16:48] <Sarvatt> yeah it puts all the gpu stuff in the initrd by default just incase its needed, the nvidia package adds a nouveau blacklist but i've seen 2 reports where that blacklist wasn't working for some reason since non-lbm nouveau went in. in one case it was because /usr was on a seperate partition that was getting fscked so it couldn't follow the symlink in /etc/modprobe.d/
[16:48] <Sarvatt> tseliot: i was going to ask you about that, would it be a better idea to just put a versioned .conf in /etc/modprobe.d/ instead of making it an alternative?
[16:49] <tseliot> Sarvatt: what do you mean by "versioned .conf"?
[16:50] <Sarvatt> like nvidia-current.conf nvidia-173.conf nvidia-96.conf
[16:50] <tseliot> also, we could put it somewhere in /lib perhaps?
[16:50] <stefanlsd> tseliot: hi, back, still doesnt work
[16:50] <stefanlsd> tseliot: interesting what you said about above
[16:51] <tseliot> Sarvatt: those files would conflict with each other
[16:51] <tseliot> stefanlsd: do you have /usr on a separate partition?
[16:51] <stefanlsd> tseliot: i have a problem booting, it seems random. 1/2 boots it is unable to mount my /usr partition
[16:51] <stefanlsd> i hard power down my laptop, and power up, and then it finds it
[16:51] <tseliot> hmm..
[16:52] <bjsnider> stefanlsd, so /usr on your system is on its own partition?
[16:52] <stefanlsd> tseliot: yeah, /usr /home /var /tmp / on seperate partitions
[16:52] <tseliot> ok
[16:53] <Sarvatt> just seems racy with the mounts not being available all the time for people with oddball partition layouts
[16:53] <bjsnider> i wonder if there's an open bug regarding not being able to find separate partitions
[16:54] <Sarvatt> ah i was thinking nvidia-173 and such werent parallel installable with nvidia-current
[16:54] <stefanlsd> been wanting to debug why for some reason it doesnt see my /usr partition for a while now. seems like some race issue
[16:54] <tseliot> Sarvatt: using /lib instead of /usr/lib would fix it
[16:54] <Sarvatt> mountall is where you want to look
[16:55] <bjsnider> maybe his fstab is broken
[16:55] <bjsnider> or old or something
[16:56] <Sarvatt> stefanlsd: try changing /etc/init/udev.conf to require local-filesystems to start
[16:58] <Sarvatt> not sure if thats the right way but things are starting too parallel for you with the oddball partition setup, it's expecting a standard layout
[16:59] <stefanlsd> Sarvatt: whats the syntax for the udev.conf file for require?   I just put "require local-filesystems"  under the start line?    hehe, its not that oddball btw :)
[17:00] <bjsnider> sure it is
[17:00] <jcristau> no
[17:00] <jcristau> pretty standard actually
[17:00] <bjsnider> ok
[17:00] <Sarvatt> i dont think its oddball either but theres alot of issues with upstart and non standard layouts
[17:00] <bjsnider> i forgot that's how the ubuntu installer lays things out every time
[17:00] <jcristau> (more so 10 years ago than now, but well)
[17:01] <stefanlsd> but yeah, seems like a few bug reports for things expecting stuff in /usr and /usr not being available (specifically /usr/lib)
[17:01] <Sarvatt> hmm I'm not sure udev would be the place to put it actually stefanlsd..
[17:05] <Sarvatt> try start on virtual-filesystems and local-filesystems though in /etc/init/udev.conf and hopefully that wont wreck your machine :) i believe you need to update-initramfs -u after you change it
[17:07] <Sarvatt> it'll probably add quite a bit of time to your boot time, the racyness is a fallout from all of this boot speed work :(
[17:07] <stefanlsd> Sarvatt: kk. thanks. gonna reboot and check :)
[17:07] <stefanlsd> brb (hopefully)
[17:13] <stefanlsd> mm, back.
[17:13] <stefanlsd> soo, the blacklisting worked now...
[17:13] <stefanlsd> although the system feels very slow... everything sluggish. not sure if its just me
[17:16] <stefanlsd> what happened to glxinfo
[17:16] <stefanlsd> im pretty sure this isnt accelerated
[17:16] <stefanlsd> aah yeah, /proc/nvidia doesnt exist
[17:18] <stefanlsd> prob X config now. gonna try reconfig. nvidia kernel module is loading
[17:27] <stefanlsd> Sarvatt: ok thanks. its working now
[17:27] <stefanlsd> so i guess for the record, blacklisting with a seperate /usr partition isnt working
[17:56] <tjaalton> just like ureadahead doesn't work with separate /var partition
[17:56] <tjaalton> I'm down to just having /tmp and /boot separate, need to disable /var/tmp somehow so people can't fill root with it
[17:57] <tjaalton> like link it to /tmp
[18:12] <stefanlsd> tjaalton: aah ok. i've seen that ureadahead does give errors on mine also
[18:15] <tseliot> stefanlsd: can you file a bug report about blacklisting while using separate partitions, please?
[18:27] <stefanlsd> tseliot: will do, any suggestions on package?
[18:28] <tseliot> stefanlsd: nvidia-graphics-drivers would be fine
[18:28] <tseliot> thanks
[19:38] <djr13> i'm getting gpu lockups under nouveau with an nv18 card
[19:39] <djr13> ...any ideas/things to check?
[19:41] <djr13> getting gpu lockups/X freezing under multiple kernels, Xorg versions/nouveau versions
[19:48] <Sarvatt> bryceh: sent you an email with a ton of ideas regarding X specific UDS discussion points. basically things such as gallium implementation, extending synaptics device settings that are missing to the GUI (like corner button settings and tap button assignment), xserver 1.8 migration pains like xorg.conf.d and the new abi's, libkms that plymouth will most likely depend on, and issues we've seen with KMS migration such as backlight control
[19:49] <bryceh> Sarvatt, ok great thanks, I'll take a look
[19:49] <tseliot> Sarvatt: "synaptics device settings" - good point, it reminds me of what I haven't had the time to work on, among other things ;)
[19:50]  * bryceh just got retasked to focus on multitouch support for a while
[19:51]  * tseliot whistles
[19:52] <Sarvatt> thats a rough one
[19:54] <Sarvatt> going to need quite a number of kernel patches for starters to handle the touchscreen support for the more common devices (n-trig?)
[19:56] <bryceh> Sarvatt, yep
[19:56] <djr13> anyone: what could i do to find the cause of gpu lockups in nouveau...only happens with nv18...
[19:57] <bryceh> djr13, speak with RAOF
[19:58] <djr13> bryceh: eh? thanks, i'll see what they say
[19:59] <Sarvatt> file a bug for starters, need alot of logs to help you troubleshoot it :)
[20:01] <Sarvatt> ubuntu-bug xorg from a terminal, and subscribe RAOF and Sarvatt to it
[20:01] <diverse_izzue> since kernel -15 i have trouble with radeon kms and external screens. is that known, and that to do about it?
[20:01] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, look in launchpad to see if it's a known issue
[20:01] <djr13> Sarvatt: you mean me? :) yeah I thought of that...i can't quite find it in any log so far....and thanks also...couldn't recall how to file bugs :-/
[20:02] <diverse_izzue> bryceh, i should search for the component "linux"?
[20:02] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, process is file a bug if there isn't one already, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting for some techniques to debug the type of problem, forward the bug upstream to bugs.freedesktop.org and make a bug link, and work with upstream towards a fix
[20:02] <Sarvatt> gotta work and purposefully leaving the laptop at home this time so I wont be able to look at it until tonight though
[20:02] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, once there's a fix, the patch will need backported to lucid, and then integrated to our packaging
[20:04] <diverse_izzue> bryceh, i had the same issue with the vanilla 2.6.33 kernel, but not the 2.6.32 one
[20:04] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, I don't know if anyone on the developer end of things will have time to help on your bug so the more of that process you can do, the easier it'll make it and more likely it'll be to looked at.  If you think it's an emergency, talk with rickspencer3 to help alter priorities accordingly
[20:04] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, if you're certain it's a kernel bug, you probably should be talking to the kernel team rather than us - see #ubuntu-kernel
[20:04] <diverse_izzue> bryceh, genereally, how much trouble does the new ati stack still make?
[20:05] <djr13> Sarvatt: would "ubuntu-bug xorg" still likely collect the correct info if I switched cards a couple hours ago?
[20:06] <bryceh> djr13, nope
[20:06] <diverse_izzue> bryceh, if you just said sth. please repeat, had an X crash
[20:07] <bjsnider> djr13, there is also a #nouveau channel where the devs lurk
[20:08] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, the way you asked your question it's not possible to answer it
[20:08] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, again see launchpad if you're curious about bugs
[20:09] <djr13> hmm looks like i'm stuck trying to get it running with a half-broken Xorg :)) should be possible though...
[20:09] <diverse_izzue> all right
[20:09] <djr13> bjsnider: yes i've been there...no responses :((
[20:10] <bryceh> diverse_izzue, we'd put out some calls for testing on the stack and no one reported any show stopper type issues, but not many people helped do the testing so it's not really possible to make broad generalizations about it
[20:10] <bryceh> upstream says it should be good to go
[20:11] <diverse_izzue> ok, i just recently tuned into the testing. i do have issues, and will make sure they are reported soon
[20:11] <tjaalton> diverse_izzue: you could also try on #dri-devel, say that .33 has a regression
[20:11] <bjsnider> bryceh, i'd say it is how it is. there aren't many good choices there. it's either radeon or fglrx
[20:12] <diverse_izzue> bjsnider, but there's regression potential. i could use external screens in karmic, and currently my system does either hang on boot with external screen or show an extremely jittery picture
[20:13] <bjsnider> i suppose fglrx doesn't work with the kernel yet
[20:13] <bryceh> bjsnider, tjaalton, btw apw implemented kms blacklisting support in the kernel, so if there are hw-specific issues that are best fixed by making the hw use ums instead, give him pci id's (and make sure there are bug report #'s for tracking)
[20:13] <tjaalton> or the xserver
[20:13] <diverse_izzue> bjsnider, i haven't tried and i won't...
[20:13] <bjsnider> diverse_izzue, it's not much help in any case i suppose
[20:13] <bjsnider> they'll probably patch it the day before lucid is released
[20:14] <tjaalton> bryceh: ok, nice
[20:16] <bryceh> bjsnider, unfortunately ATI NDA prevents us from disclosing when fglrx will be delivered to us
[20:16] <bjsnider> hahhaa whatever
[20:16] <bryceh> but it will be available in lucid
[20:17] <diverse_izzue> sometimes the industry is difficult to understand...
[20:17] <bjsnider> bryceh, why would you sign one of those awful things?
[20:18] <bryceh> bjsnider, well I didn't sign it personally ;-)
[20:18] <apw> bjsnider, tjaalton, bryceh, right ... get me the bug numbers, make sure the device ids are clearly in there and i'll put together a test kernel for them
[20:18] <bryceh> knowing stuff under an nda is almost worse than not knowing :-/
[20:19] <bryceh> if I didn't know, then I could give you educated guesses ;-)
[20:19] <bryceh> anyway, --> lunch.  bbiab
[20:19] <bjsnider> i provided an educated guess based on their past behaviour
[21:48] <bryceh> Sarvatt, you about?
[21:49] <bryceh> Sarvatt, can you bump me up to administrator in xorg-edgers (https://edge.launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+members)?
[21:49] <bryceh> Sarvatt, I want to add a ppa for multitouch
[22:19] <Sarvatt> bryceh: only tormod can do that but I created https://edge.launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/multitouch
[22:20] <bryceh> Sarvatt, thanks
[22:22]  * bryceh copies in multitouch package
[22:22] <Sarvatt> jcristau: you have experience with xserver 1.8 post xorg.conf.d merge right? when you create xorg.conf.d snippets for input devices and such and they are matched does it handle video device autoconfiguration the same as not having an xorg.conf currently does?
[22:23] <bryceh> apw, mt kernels can be dropped @ https://edge.launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/multitouch/+packages
[22:24] <bryceh> feh, we're drowning in these GPU lockup bugs
[22:28] <Sarvatt> hmm, i see some trends in the gpu lockup bugs
[22:31] <Sarvatt> 8xx are all at boot time and justify quirking to UMS, every other one I've looked at so far looks like it was triggered by the plymouth sigquit restarting X deal..?
[22:32] <bryceh> Sarvatt, ooh really?  that's good insight
[22:32] <bryceh> so for 8xx we could just have apw blacklist them all (which we were thinking of doing anyway)
[22:32] <Sarvatt> there's a little issue with libdrm I haven't figured out yet, I get a drm error every time i stop or restart gdm
[22:33] <Sarvatt> digging through my logs to find the exact message
[22:33] <bryceh> for the plymouth ones, I wonder if there's a way we can check for that situation automatically and avoid filing more bug reports in that case?
[22:35] <jcristau> Sarvatt: afaik stuff is handled as if you had the xorg.conf.d contents in xorg.conf
[22:36] <Sarvatt> [drm:i915_gem_madvise_ioctl] *ERROR* Attempted i915_gem_madvise_ioctl() on a pinned object
[22:37] <Sarvatt> I get that switching to a VT and doing a sudo service stop gdm
[22:39] <Sarvatt> i need to file an upstream bug on that one now that i figured out it wasnt plymouth related
[22:42] <Sarvatt> hmm i have an error in my dmesg now when i suspended with the powersave=1 945 black screen hang, that used to just be silent and will trigger the apport script too so I gotta check 945 hang bugs for that
[22:42] <Sarvatt> Mar  8 18:25:13 asuka kernel: [97322.963349] render error detected, EIR: 0x00000010
[22:42] <Sarvatt> Mar  8 18:25:13 asuka kernel: [97322.963369] page table error
[22:42] <Sarvatt> Mar  8 18:25:13 asuka kernel: [97322.963381]   PGTBL_ER: 0x00000010
[23:30] <Sarvatt> bryceh: what devices are you trying to support? if it's n-trig you get multitouch/stylus/touch and eraser support through wacom and just need to extend the udev rules as well as integrate the n-trig kernel module (not to mention the non-redistributable windows firmware it needs..). you will lose everything but touch events using evdev?
[23:31] <bryceh> yeah n-trig is the priority
[23:32] <bryceh> apw's looking into the kernel module (see https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-xorg-multitouch)
[23:32] <bryceh> Sarvatt, I got a patch that adds multitouch support to -evdev which is in the aforementioned ppa now
[23:32] <bryceh> don't have the hw to test it though
[23:36] <superm1> that reminds me, my touchscreen broke on upgrade to lucid, is it expected to be working right now?
[23:36] <superm1> single touch
[23:39] <Sarvatt> a bug report would help alot when you have time, unless it was before wacom 0ubuntu2 was uploaded then it was expected not to work
[23:40] <Sarvatt> -- Timo Aaltonen<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 10:52:11 +0200
[23:41] <Sarvatt> serial tablets were broken until then needing the wacom udev rules update it had
[23:42] <bryceh> superm1, probably due to dropping HAL
[23:42] <Sarvatt> (most tablet pc's having serial digitizers, not sure what device you have)
[23:43] <superm1> i dont have the HW handy right now.  i'll get a bug report together when i ge thome
[23:43] <superm1> i dist-upgraded on sunday, so so i should have that
[23:44] <Sarvatt> yeah that'd be much appreciated, it *should* be working at this point
[23:45] <superm1> Ok, that's what i needed to determine, whether the bug report would do anygood since it was "supposed" to be working
[23:55] <Sarvatt> actually I just noticed we're missing waltop tablets support, and i was under the impression serial wacom devices needed Option "ForceDevice" "ISDV4" in xorg.conf as well


[23:17] <Kurobyte> Uhm... Hello?
[23:18] <Kurobyte> So, I've started using Ubuntu Studio recently
[23:18] <Kurobyte> I had it opened a few times before, but I'm trying to get used to it now
[23:20] <Kurobyte> I was watching videos on youtube, but then the video stopped.


 It's a game. A channel in which I posted the URL twice. I'll be sure to be ever so strict, and will remember it.
[00:01] <J-_> If this is an effort to clean up a messy channel, it's a poor one.
[00:02] <J-_> That's all I have to say.
[00:02] <elky> he's usually the first to complain about spam...
[00:13] <elky> besides, its not to 'clean up' its to 'prevent from getting worse'
[00:32] <Pici> ugh
[00:32] <Pici> I don't like seeing those hilights in my away log from people who I thought knew better
[00:39] <elky> i dont see why it's so hard to differentiate between a spammy flash game and something like t61 which is a lastfm+jamendo free-culture supporting thing
[00:41]  * Flannel has a t61.  What is this other t61 of which you speak?
[00:42] <Pici> The one that confuses me as being a acronym thats already taken
[00:43] <elky_work> thesixtyone.com. abbreviated to t61 to avoid url spam.
[00:45] <elky_work> besides, unless your phone is "a lastfm+jamendo free-culture supporting thing" that shouldnt have been *that* confusing.
[00:45] <Flannel> phone?  try laptop.
[00:45] <Flannel> and, it is confusing seeing everyone talking about t61s
[00:46] <Pici> taken care of
[00:46] <Flannel> Mmm, why didn't floodbots gobble him up
[00:47] <Pici> Because the first few were spaced out
[00:58] <elky_work> well that's ok since we're not going to talk about it again, as it clearly encourages otherwise normal people to engage in referrer flash games
[00:59] <Pricey> Hey unop is still around.
[01:11] <aaditya> !patience
[01:11] <aaditya> the factoid is recursive..
[01:12] <Pricey> !-patience
[01:12] <Pricey> Thanks aaditya
[01:12] <Pricey> !-repeat
[01:13] <Pricey> !no repeat is <reply> Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. You can search  https://help.ubuntu.com or http://wiki.ubuntu.com while you wait.
[01:13] <Pricey> !patience
[01:13] <elky_work> maybe a link to guidelines?
[01:14] <Pricey> Perhaps needlessly on the offensive? It can always be triggered separately?
[01:14] <Flannel> I thought instead of wiki.ubuntu.com we link to the forums
[01:14] <Pricey> Feel free though.
[01:15] <Flannel> since, wiki.ubuntu.com isn't where they should be going (at least in the support channels, team channels are another matter)
[01:15] <elky_work> yeah, forums can keep them entertained for a few mins
[01:17] <aaditya> i agree, they should be searching the forums
[01:17] <Pricey> !no repeat is <reply> Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. You can  search  https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org while you wait.
[01:18] <aaditya> thanks Pricey
[01:18] <aaditya> see ya'll around
[01:18] <Pricey> Nope thankyou :)
[01:18] <aaditya> :)
[01:41]  * genii sips
[01:42] <genii> Myrtti: For the flag earlier: I figure !alternate factoid is fine since 8.04 is the current LTS version
[01:45] <elky_work> genii, not for K it isnt...
[01:47] <genii> elky_work: We currently don't have a K long-term-support version as I understand
[01:49] <Flannel> correct.
[01:54] <genii> I still don't think we should change the factoid however...because: 8.04 is the closest we DO have to an LTS and there will still be people using it and using the regular Ubuntu updates part of it as long as that is still available   .. and .. pointing it to 9.04 when it has still a lot of unresolved issues doesn't seem prudent to me
[01:54] <genii> But thats just my two bit's worth :)
[01:57] <Flannel> Yeah
[01:57] <Flannel> It'll be quasi-LTS, since the kernels and stuff won't be unsupported
[01:58] <Flannel> just... the Kubuntu specific stff.  Which, I'm not sure how frequently that's actually updated
[01:58] <Flannel> We'll know more once Dapper Desktop goes EOL and the server sticks around.
[01:59] <genii> Hm. I'm not sure I'm looking forward to that...
[02:00] <genii> I just asked in #k-devel about if 10.04 will be LTS ... probably no one knows yet
[02:00] <Flannel> I imagine it will be.  The reason given for 8.04 not being was the dual versions of KDE
[02:02] <genii> There was also previously talk of different release schedule of KDE upstream maybe meaning the K releases should be synched differently than regular Ubuntu. But I don't know if anything came of this
[02:42] <vorian> no
[02:42] <vorian> Kubuntu follows the same release schedule
[02:43] <genii> Since kde4.3 should be out in stable by July looks like 10.04 should be LTS (with 4.3)
[02:43] <vorian> nay
[02:43] <vorian> we will be on 4.4 by then
[02:44] <vorian> at least
[02:45] <genii> There's not even a 4.4 Reease Schedule yet ;)
[02:45] <genii> *Release
[03:05] <aprilhare> has my #ubuntu-offtopic ban been officially lifted?
[03:16] <Flannel> aprilhare: No, you're just connected from a different host it seems.
[03:16] <aprilhare> ic
[03:17] <aprilhare> i have ipv4 and ipv6 addresses
[03:17] <Flannel> right.
[03:17] <aprilhare> fixed?
[03:18] <Flannel> hmm?
[03:18] <aprilhare> i mean, am i still banned and if so for how long?
[03:19] <Flannel> You are still banned, but that's all I can verify.  Others however will likely be able to comment further.
[03:19] <aprilhare> ok
[03:19] <aprilhare> wait here or come back at another time?
[03:22] <Flannel> Waiting in here for a bit won't hurt.  But I have no idea when others will be active.
[03:23] <aprilhare> ok
[03:23] <aprilhare> how has your day been?
[03:30] <Flannel> pretty decent.  Yours?
[03:31] <aprilhare> not too bad, cold for sydney though
[03:33] <Flannel> Well, it is winter
[03:41] <aprilhare> yes it is
[03:46] <elky> aprilhare, it certainly wont be lifted until the minimum 24hrs is up. that mark will be at 20:00 tonight. it is entirely possible that topyli may prefer the ban be longer, but we wont know whilst he's asleep.
[03:47] <aprilhare> ok
[03:47] <aprilhare> what timezone is topyli in?
[03:48] <elky> europe.
[03:48] <aprilhare> ic
[03:48] <elky> but, there's no point you being here until at least 8pm tonight.
[03:48] <aprilhare> ok
[06:29] <Myrtti> genii: but the link is still broken
[06:30] <Myrtti> there is no 8.04 - there is 8.04.2
[07:07] <jussi01> bazhang: Im off or a bit., Ill take that off you when I get to work.
[07:07] <bazhang> jussi01, okay
[08:10] <Myrtti> today shall be a day of epic amounts of coffee
[08:11] <mneptok> don't chip the porcelain
[08:11] <Flannel> Because it's Tuesday?
[08:12] <popey> \o/ coffee
[08:13] <mneptok> i like that i found out about the Community Leadership Summit that Jono is organizing via a blog post.  *grumble*
[08:15] <Flannel> heh
[08:15] <Flannel> He posted another blog post about it a while ago!
[08:15] <Flannel> You going to be there?
[08:17] <mneptok> dunno yet. need to talk with the boss about it.
[08:18]  * Myrtti feels bad for not being in Finland when mneptoks here... :-(
[08:19] <mneptok> Myrtti: that's OK. you're in my dreams every night. usually chasing me with lighter fluid and lightning bolts.
[08:19] <mneptok> oh, and a plush kitten toy that devours all light and goodness. then naps.
[08:20] <Myrtti> nomnom
[08:20] <mneptok> YES! THAT'S THE SOUND!
[08:20] <Myrtti> NOMNOM
[08:21] <Myrtti> I need more sleep
[08:22]  * Myrtti leaves #ubuntu alone
[08:22] <Myrtti> and/or more coffee
[08:22] <Tm_T> kids...
[08:23] <mneptok> who are you calling "kid," boy? ;)
[08:23] <Tm_T> that reminds me, it's 30 minutes left until I decide to take my que and go back home from Helsinki
[08:25] <mneptok> http://imgur.com/ARUy2.jpg
[08:26] <mneptok> must ... not ... /topic ...
[08:27] <Myrtti> rooh
[08:31] <bazhang> thanks jussi01 ; just having to head out now, so perfect timing :)
[08:31] <jussi01> :)
[08:32] <jussi01> jono fails...
[08:32] <jussi01> his link to the community leadership summit goes to his book preorder thingy...
[08:32] <popey> heh
[08:32] <Tm_T> spam!
[08:38] <ikonia> jussi01: are you sure thats a fail and not "marketing"
[08:38] <jussi01> ikonia: marketing FAIL!
[08:41] <Flannel> It's supposed to be: http://www.communityleadershipsummit.com/
[08:58] <jussi01> mneptok: are you coming to finland? o.O
[08:58]  * jussi01 thinks if mneptok comes he has to come meet up for a beer...
[08:59] <Tm_T> jussi01: he doesn't drink (our beer) but other than that, I'm sure yes (;)
[08:59]  * Tm_T thinks topy-li already tried that
[08:59] <jussi01> Tm_T: meh... s/beer/beverage of his choice/
[09:00] <Tm_T> aye!
[09:24] <Myrtti> yay, my purse has arrived to the post office!
[09:26] <elky> Myrtti, can eat again!
[09:30] <Myrtti> I did have some mince in the freezebox yesterday so I did have quite nice spaghetti bolognese, but having more milk for my coffee and more coffee would be nice :)
[09:32] <Tm_T> hrr, adventurous bus trip to trainstation ->
[09:34] <topyli> Tm_T: don't worry, more than 70% make it alive
[09:51]  * Mamarok just read "I did have some mice in the freezbox..." \o/
[09:52] <Myrtti> Mamarok: :-D
[10:04] <Myrtti> I must have transported to some alternate universe on #ubuntu
[10:05] <Myrtti> oh christ
[10:05] <Myrtti> what's this
[10:05] <Myrtti> http://ubuntu-tweak.com/downloads
[10:05] <Myrtti> elky: *poke*
[10:05] <tsimpson> they never die
[10:06] <tsimpson> "sudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list" <- they can not be trusted
[10:06]  * Myrtti downloads, prepares to scream
[10:06] <elky> Myrtti?
[10:07] <Myrtti> oh christ, it's python
[10:07] <ikonia> why these people won't contribute to ubuntu I don't know
[10:07] <ikonia> rather than make a 3rd party product
[10:08] <Myrtti> please, dear god
[10:08] <elky> ikonia, i suspect because their contributions are so hacky they get turned down
[10:08] <Myrtti> elky: if you have a pointer to give to people on #ubuntu about why not suggest that ubuntu-tweak to anyone, feel free
[10:08] <ikonia> elky: so is that not an obvious warning to improve it/don't do it ?
[10:08] <Myrtti> I'm trying to read the code
[10:09] <elky> ikonia, i dont know. i'm assuming there's a reason. i dont personally know it.
[10:09] <ikonia> of course
[10:11] <Myrtti> ok, this atleast calls some bash scripts
[10:11] <Myrtti> uses policykit?
[10:12] <Myrtti> who's TualatriX?
[10:15] <Myrtti> ok, so apparently it doesn't enable any extra repositories
[10:15] <Myrtti> that's good...
[10:16] <Myrtti> the source editor is a bit shoddy
[10:18] <Myrtti> erm, this package/cache whatever removal thing isn't making me happy
[10:19] <Myrtti> oh, it does have some sort of mechanics to install stuff from somewhere else
[10:19] <elky> Myrtti, both you and hobbsee are seeming skeptical of it
[10:20] <Myrtti> looks like using PPA's of some sort - I wonder how the author has decided what PPAs to promote
[10:21] <Myrtti> I find the fact that system specs are given in text form textboxes a bit disturbing
[10:21] <Myrtti> I certainly hope the hostname and stuff isn't changeable through this
[10:22] <Myrtti> oh crap
[10:22] <elky> it is?
[10:22] <Myrtti> "Enable power user mode"
[10:22] <Myrtti> I wonder what that does...
[10:25] <Myrtti> ok, didn't seem to do anything
[10:26] <elky> Myrtti, it will have done *something*
[10:26] <Myrtti> elky: what I mean is that usually with these things, enabling "PowerUser" mode gives you more stuff to configure
[10:26] <Myrtti> I just don't seem to get that
[10:26] <Myrtti> and it didn't ask for sudo pass, so it wasn't that either
[10:27] <elky> which means it's done something *else*
[10:51] <elky> ikonia, we have one core dev saying we shouldnt let newbs recommend it to each other.
[10:52] <ikonia> I concur with him/her
[10:54] <elky> did you take a look for yourself?
[10:54] <ikonia> not recently, I've gone through it myself before in the past, but just wrote it off
[10:55] <ikonia> is there something "new" I should be aware of
[10:55] <ikonia> Myrtti seems to be going through the current version
[10:55] <Myrtti> I just stumbled upon it myself
[10:55] <Myrtti> so I'm not familiar with past versions
[10:55] <Myrtti> I'm also not fluent in Python, and don't have Gnome so there's a possibility I'm not seeing that much
[10:58] <popey> uhm
[10:58] <popey> whats the problem with ubuntu-tweak?
[10:58] <ikonia> 3rd party system modification package ?
[10:59] <popey> thats a blanket rule?
[10:59] <popey> anything that modifies the system is verboten?
[10:59] <ikonia> no, past experiences are bad of it, when I've looked at it in the past
[10:59] <Myrtti> popey: until someone trustworthy verifies it's not doing anything stupid?
[10:59] <popey> it seems to be doing some things "right", using policykit for example rather than randomly asking for passwords
[10:59] <ikonia> the volume of users I see saying "I can't get it to work, now my system is borked"
[10:59] <popey> Myrtti: do we certify all apps like that?
[11:00] <popey> why single out u-t
[11:00] <Myrtti> popey: ultamatix, automatix
[11:00] <ikonia> popey: for theh reasons I've just listed
[11:00] <Myrtti> we've been naughty in your absence and singled out those as well
[11:00] <popey> uhm
[11:00] <elky> popey, well. yes. if they get into a repository, then they've been verified by trustworthy people.
[11:01] <popey> so to be clear, any system changing app that is not in the repo, and has not been verified by trustworthy people is verboten?
[11:01] <ikonia> no
[11:02] <popey> thats what I gleaned from Myrtti and elky
[11:02] <popey> and I appreciate you have answered differently
[11:02] <ikonia> I've just suggested I've looked at older versions which where not good, and I've seen a reasonable ammount of users having a problem with it
[11:02] <ikonia> ahh
[11:03] <ikonia> popey: if this is going to be used/recommended like a tool, I'd like to see it go through the revo proces and get into a repo
[11:03] <popey> sure, that's the ideal solution
[11:03] <popey> I'm just trying to grasp what the "rule of thumb" is
[11:03] <ikonia> common sense
[11:04] <popey> if indeed there is one, or if it's just a gut reaction to anything *tomatix-a-like
[11:04] <ikonia> nope common sense for me
[11:04] <ikonia> known issues/frequent user problems = invesigate/warn
[11:05] <ikonia> I've just grabbed the current version to look through it, and the priniciapl doesn't seem solid to me, even if the end results (policy kit) have some favourable outcome
[11:05] <popey> Has this been fed back to the developer?
[11:05] <ikonia> not from me
[11:06] <ikonia> I don't know what users have fed back in in the past (obviously)
[11:06] <popey> I am keen for us not to get into the same state that automatix got into, with significant friction in the community
[11:06] <ikonia> popey: never move away from that while it's allowed to be touted
[11:06] <ikonia> that was tested as a bad product and still pushed
[11:06] <elky> popey, if we dont know what it is, we are suspicious of it by default.
[11:06] <ikonia> if you want, I'll package ubuntu-tweak and take it through revo
[11:07] <ikonia> see if it gets accepted/rejected
[11:07] <popey> that's certainly _an_ option
[11:07] <popey> be nice if the developer themselves was involved
[11:09] <ikonia> don't know if he's even interested personally
[11:09] <popey> be nice to ask
[11:09] <popey> rather than take it, get it rejected and then throw that at them
[11:09] <ikonia> I didn't plan on doing anything, I just offered to give a bit of piece of mind
[11:09] <popey> I'd be happy to do that
[11:10] <ikonia> give him a nudge then, if it's not interested I'll do it so we can get a more official standpoint
[11:10] <aprilhare> hello
[11:10] <Myrtti> *naaaggghhhgh*
[11:11] <aprilhare> rare to be greeted with such a noise :)
[11:11] <Myrtti> did I miss something?
[11:11] <popey> its mostly just a frontend to gconf tbh
[11:11] <ikonia> popey: does a bit more than that with it's "daemon" mode
[11:11] <popey> sure
[11:11] <popey> but thats a main "selling point"
[11:11] <ikonia> popey: I'll work with you to move this forward if you like
[11:11] <popey> great
[11:11] <ikonia> get a more official standpoint so it can be said with a bit more authority
[11:11] <popey> the author is busy with school at the moment
[11:12] <Myrtti> wohee, day of success this is
[11:12] <ikonia> 10 days won't kill us
[11:12] <popey> sure
[11:12] <Myrtti> browser crashes, network crashes, meh.
[11:13] <aprilhare> am i still banned from #ubuntu-offtopic, and how long will the ban continue?
[11:13] <Mamarok> I think aprilhare is back for topyli I guess
[11:13] <aprilhare> quite correct Mamarok
[11:13] <aprilhare> not that #ubuntu-ops is a bad place or anything :)
[11:14] <topyli> heh
[11:14] <aprilhare> hello topyli
[11:15] <topyli> hi aprilhare
[11:16] <topyli> looks like you do like it here, you've been dropping by often
[11:16] <aprilhare> it's got all the modcons :)
[11:17] <aprilhare> also it offers the opportunity of being exposed to your mercy
[11:17] <popey> ikonia: am contacting the developer to see if he's interested, would you like a cc:?
[11:17] <topyli> heh well
[11:17] <elky> topyli, i feel there's still some things unanswered.
[11:18] <ikonia> popey: ta, one moment,
[11:18] <aprilhare> personally, i feel not a great deal. feelings are precious - and few and far between.
[11:19] <ikonia> popey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MattDarcy ubuntu email please
[11:19] <popey> ok, thanks
[11:19] <topyli> aprilhare: you would have to ensure that people won't be uncomfortable
[11:20] <aprilhare> ok
[11:20] <topyli> the sexual references should go, namely
[11:20] <aprilhare> i don't remember making that many hints to sexuality.
[11:21] <topyli> no?
[11:21] <aprilhare> no.
[11:21] <topyli> some have been noted though
[11:22] <aprilhare> ok
[11:24] <topyli> you should understand what it is you need to work on before you can work on it
[11:26] <topyli> aprilhare: hmm? let's not idle here. we do have to decide what to do today
[11:26] <aprilhare> i have no idea what is required of me to say or do
[11:27] <popey> ikonia: sent
[11:28] <topyli> aprilhare: would be a good start if you stopped references to filling holes with things, rubbing substances on other things, filling hard drives with porn, and such talk.
[11:29] <topyli> if you veil your sexual references under "funny" guises it doesn't make them any more appropriate, or even particularly funny
[11:29] <aprilhare> i don't remember starting
[11:29] <aprilhare> as such, i can't invisage stopping, if you understand me
[11:29] <topyli> i guess you're not going to stop it then either, if you don't know what you're doing
[11:30] <aprilhare> you paint me any way you feel like. i feel insulted with non-existant innuendo
[11:30] <topyli> better then if we leave things as they are, at this time
[11:31] <elky> ...
[11:33] <aprilhare> actually, I'd like my own answer: who is being malicious and exaggerating or making up this sexual innuendo?
[11:34] <Myrtti> so those are the options
[11:34] <Myrtti> someone is either being malicious and exaggerating OR makin gi tup?
[11:34] <Myrtti> (typo fail)
[11:34] <aprilhare> Myrtti: i don't honestly care at this point.
[11:34] <Myrtti> oh come on
[11:35] <aprilhare> no.
[11:35] <aprilhare> no come on
[11:35] <Myrtti> if you don't care, what's the point then?
[11:35] <aprilhare> just wanted to see how far it can be dragged
[11:36] <Myrtti> what, the discussion?
[11:36] <topyli> "* aprilhare ensures the hole plug is in the dyke firmly". "<aprilhare> rubbing that topical cream into my... ahem."
[11:36] <aprilhare> ok.
[11:37] <aprilhare> 2. possibly. 1 in the dirty mind
[11:37] <aprilhare> sorry for 1
[11:37] <Myrtti> it seems to be your dirty mind, according to that "ahem"
[11:37] <aprilhare> you know, i'm not sixteen years old. i think you get pretty good out of me
[11:38] <aprilhare> Myrtti: ahem could be interpreted in other ways. i might be implying knocking off rubbing topical cream into my sore.
[11:39] <aprilhare> can't help it if sex is on your mind
[11:39] <elky> aprilhare, dont treat us like idiots, please.
[11:39] <topyli> well you've been on -ot long enough to know what is appropriate. you should also know, without the help of irc guidelines, that not everyone is comfortable when faced with such behavior
[11:39] <aprilhare> elky: i am not treating you as an idiot. i'll treat you all as fools though
[11:39] <topyli> okay. not on -ot though
[11:40] <aprilhare> because my scorn is kinda built up
[11:41] <topyli> we can talk later if you're some day more willing to discuss the actual ban and its causes
[11:41] <aprilhare> exactly what makes you think you're interested in anything but amusement and heaping coals on my head?
[11:42] <elky> now we're fools and sociopaths. excellent.
[11:42] <aprilhare> in the old days, they called it 'kangaroo court'. now it's #ubuntu-ops eh
[11:43] <aprilhare> who's my defendant? what are the charges, and how many?
[11:45] <topyli> there's no court, and no charges. you're being requested to adjust your behavior so that it's more suitable to an ubuntu channel so that you can return and we may enjoy your company there again
[11:48] <aprilhare> well i don't believe that by elky's comments that she is much interested in enjoying my company. however if you believe my comments have be suggestive, i shall ensure they shall be made in more appropriate ways or areas.
[11:48] <aprilhare> -that
[11:49] <topyli> that would be nice
[11:49] <aprilhare> that's all i've got
[11:49] <aprilhare> :)
[11:50] <elky> that's all we were after. why it took so long to get it out of you is well beyond my comprehension.
[11:51] <topyli> you are unbanned on -ot now
[11:51] <aprilhare> thanks
[11:52] <topyli> at least i tried to do it, try and see whether or not i fail :)
[11:52] <aprilhare> you don't fail with ipv6 at least
[11:52] <topyli> i memorized it at once of course!
[11:52] <aprilhare> heh
[11:52] <aprilhare> ipv6 is that memorable
[11:52] <aprilhare> lol
[11:53] <topyli> ok, please /part this channel so we can go about other stuff here
[11:53] <topyli> we'll see
[11:53] <elky> it might last a day
[11:54] <bazhang> hehe
[11:54] <topyli> heh
[11:54] <bazhang>  /me was op in #kubuntu !
[11:55] <jussi01> was...
[11:56] <bazhang> for about an hour :)
[12:45] <bazhang> :0
[12:48] <myrtti_> in case you didn't notice, unused nicknames are expired fromt the services soon :-P
[12:48]  * myrtti_ fiddles about a bit more
[14:14] <bazhang> heh he got k-lined
[14:15] <Myrtti> who did?
[14:15] <Myrtti> oh
[14:15] <bazhang> tfhosting spammer
[14:19] <bazhang> mixing version sources? and he says it's a Ubuntu bug?
[14:21] <Pici> elky: Did hwilde see the warning yesterday about mybrute? or did just J-_?
[14:21] <bazhang> @bansearch pixelshooter
[14:21] <bazhang> just j-_
[14:21] <bazhang> hwilde was the first to post if logs are correct
[14:22] <elky> and why would he not come back. he was encouraged yesterday
[14:23] <bazhang> mixing-versions is <reply> you're screwed
[14:23] <elky> ...
[14:24] <bazhang> he wants to know what to do. I am guessing a full reinstall
[14:42] <Myrtti> what's hooohah whatever about?
[14:53] <Myrtti> !away > dmazzone-away
[15:07] <Myrtti> can I smack people who ask "have you tried google" in #ubuntu?
[15:08] <jussi01> yes, but not too hard...
[15:08] <jussi01> !googleit
[15:08] <jussi01> !google
[15:09] <jussi01> :)
[15:13] <Nehyx> hi, I was reading about change irssi port to 8001, what happens about port 6667?
[15:14] <Nehyx> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixDCCExploit
[16:02]  * Pici makes a note to ask BluesKaj to not paste offtopic links across channels
[16:03] <bazhang> crosspost/ot
[16:47] <Myrtti> I need more coffee
[16:51] <bazhang> hateball, hi
[16:51] <hateball> bazhang: hello sire
[16:51] <bazhang> how may we help you hateball
[16:52] <hateball> bazhang: Dunno, just hanging around for the time being
[16:52] <jussi01> !idle | hateball
[16:53] <bazhang> ban forward from -ot ?
[16:54] <jussi01> dunno, maybe just curious
[16:54] <jussi01> you get that sometimes
[16:55] <bazhang> seem to remember him being banned from -ot with aprilhare yesterday
[17:03] <jussi01> @bansearch hateball
[17:06] <Myrtti> what an anticlimax for that exploiter
[17:06] <Myrtti> nobody got hit
[17:07] <ikonia> ha ha
[17:07] <jussi01> ikonia: pm?
[17:07] <ikonia> yup
[17:12] <ikonia> hello compengi
[17:12] <compengi> hello
[17:12] <ikonia> what's up, how can we help ?
[17:15] <compengi> we have a caase against our loco team leader, but it's another story. i joined here since i received the last global network message that christel sent, regarding nick and channel expires. so i got worried about our loco irc channel since our leader wasn't online since 34 weeks
[17:15] <compengi> 18:13:03 [FreeNode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on magaltavor (account magaltavor):
[17:15] <compengi> 18:13:03 [FreeNode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Registered : Mar 27 13:16:34 2004 (5 years, 10 weeks, 5 days, 02:55:26 ago)
[17:15] <compengi> 18:13:03 [FreeNode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last addr<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:15] <compengi> 18:13:03 [FreeNode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last seen  : Oct 14 14:14:50 2008 (34 weeks, 0 days, 01:57:10 ago)
[17:15] <compengi> 18:13:03 [FreeNode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Flags      : HideMail
[17:15] <jussi01> this should really be in #ubuntu-irc
[17:15] <jussi01> compengi: and please use a pastebin :)
[17:16] <compengi> 5 lines :)
[17:16] <jussi01> compengi: any more than 3 ;)
[17:16] <Myrtti> it's unreadable in IRC in any case
[17:16] <compengi> i see :P
[17:16] <compengi> thanks for info anyways
[17:16] <jussi01> compengi: so lets head over to #ubuntu-irc ;)
[17:16] <compengi> okay
[17:25] <jussi01> !idle | compengi
[17:26] <ubot3> In ubot3, Phantomas said: !no gr is <reply>#ubuntu-gr και #kubuntu-gr για Έλληνες χρήστες  /  #ubuntu-gr kai #kubuntu-gr gia Ellhnes xrhstes
[17:28] <JanC> anybody had any problems with Pyam<EMAIL_ADDRESS>or Payam<EMAIL_ADDRESS>in their channel?
[17:29] <topyli> jussi01: i did ban hateball a bit before aprilhare. i thought i removed it, but apparently i didn't
[17:30] <jussi01> @bansearch pyam
[17:30] <jussi01> JanC: doesnt look likely
[17:31] <Myrtti> jussi01: might have hit loco channels though
[17:31] <Myrtti> I guess -irc would know better
[17:31] <topyli> did i just remove all bans ever set on -ot?
[17:34] <JanC> this Paym came into #ubuntu-be and asked some questions about a problem, and I tried to help a bit, but after some time he left, and then later came back to hold the following (NSFW) monologue:
[17:34] <JanC> http://ubuntu-ops.pastebin.com/d41e43813
[17:35] <JanC> so in case you hear more from him  ;)
[17:36] <Myrtti> !away > Nehyx
[20:15] <Myrtti> !away > Bleubeard


[09:07] <AskUbuntu> MAAS & juju trubles from KAZAKHSTAN | http://askubuntu.com/q/307205
[10:07] <jamespage> adam_g_, I proposed a couple of merges for nova-cloud-controller and nova-compute off the back of the serverstack quantum work I've been doing
[10:07] <jamespage> wedgwood_away, can you give me a ping re consistency of return values in hookenv when you are around
[11:36] <ehw> hey, everyone, o/ , are there current docs for setting up juju-core + maas?  getting errors following the steps on the wiki; namely, 'no public ssh keys' are defined in the environments.yaml, but it's not documented anywhere how to set this up
[13:52] <wedgwood> jamespage: ping
[13:52] <jamespage> hey wedgwood
[13:52] <jamespage> hows things?
[13:52] <wedgwood> not much to complain about
[13:52] <wedgwood> you?
[13:53] <jamespage> yeah - good thanks
[13:53] <jamespage> anyways; I was having a dig through charm-helpers this morning
[13:53] <jamespage> and started to review the stuff in core/hookenv against what we have in contrib/hahelpers/utils
[13:53] <jamespage> as there is alot over overlap
[13:54] <jamespage> specifically with regards to relation/unit/config accessors we have a bit of inconsistency
[13:54] <jamespage> in contrib/hahelpers/utils if the return value from a juju cli call is empty, the function returns 'None'
[13:54] <jamespage> makes it nice and easy to detect an unset of missing value in python
[13:55] <jamespage> its a little different in core/hookenv; do you think its going to be possible to agree on a single approach?
[13:56] <jamespage> there are also some inconsitencies - relation_get does the None thing; unit_get does not
[13:56] <jamespage> wedgwood, any opinion on which is the right* way
[13:56] <jamespage> *tm
[13:56] <jamespage> adam_g_, you will be interested in this as well ^^
[13:57] <wedgwood> sorry, got pulled away a bit
[13:58] <wedgwood> It's hard to say. There is such a thing as a null value in yaml.
[13:58] <wedgwood> I think None is right, but I disagree that it indicates that a value is not set
[14:02] <wedgwood> jamespage: I agree that we should return None more consistently in the case of either a) an unset value or b) a value that is null
[14:03] <jamespage> wedgwood, coolio
[14:03] <jamespage> the other nice thing I added to contrib/hahelpers/utils was some transparent function caching
[14:03] <wedgwood> the alternative is to throw an exception for unset values and nobody wants that. nor is there any way to know really since the relation-* tools just return nothing
[14:03] <jamespage> wedgwood, indded
[14:04] <wedgwood> tbh, I haven't looked closely at hahelpers. I did see a lot of overlap so I turned my attention to what seemed like more pressing things.
[14:04] <wedgwood> I'll have a look at the function caching if you think that's the most ripe for promoting
[14:06] <jamespage> wedgwood, its only a couple of functions - I'm happy to refactor it into hookenv
[14:07] <wedgwood> that'd be much appreciated!
[14:07] <jamespage> wedgwood, but I wanted to checkin with you on the return type thing first
[14:09] <jamespage> wedgwood, OK - lemme take a run at the hookenv None thing first
[14:09] <jamespage> and then I'll work in the caching
[14:09] <jamespage> it hugely improves performance of some of our charms
[14:15] <stub> marcoceppi: How are your test tools going?
[14:28] <marcoceppi> stub: good, I should have a simple first cut out this week
[14:29] <stub> marcoceppi: ok. Let me know if you want eyeballs on it :)
[14:29] <marcoceppi> stub: I'll give you a ping for sure!
[14:30] <stub> I'm just updating my test harness for gojuju. Found a few gotchas.
[14:32] <marcoceppi> stub: anything I should keep an eye out for?
[14:33] <stub> marcoceppi: Having to wait for services with life: dying to actually die was the main one I found.
[14:35] <stub> marcoceppi: Trying to diagnose if/when openstack nodes get reused atm... gojuju seems to like spawning new nodes rather than reusing ones that are idle or soon will be.
[14:54] <marcoceppi> stub: I'll make sure to add "dying" checks in. Didn't think of that
[15:30] <noodles785> wedgwood: hi! No rush, but if you've time over the next few days, could you pls look at https://code.launchpad.net/~michael.nelson/charm-helpers/add-declarative-support/+merge/168961
[15:30] <noodles785> jcastro: ^^ That's the declarative helper I mentioned on G+ using saltstack's states.
[15:31] <wedgwood> noodles785: that looks an awful lot like a saltstack module, rather than a generic helper.
[15:32] <wedgwood> do we want to choose saltstack over puppet or chef?
[15:34] <wedgwood> noodles785: at the spring we discussed the idea of having some package-specific helpers, and I think this would be a good one.
[15:34] <wedgwood> but that implies to me that the naming should be a bit more package-specific.
[15:35] <noodles785> wedgwood: I've tried to write it in a way that we could use other packages too (just a thin wrapper). I have in the past done similar charms using puppet to set the state. I don't care which we go with personally, but some people don't like puppet.
[15:35] <noodles785> wedgwood: Happy to re-work it as needed - I just want to be able to declare machine states rather than write (and test them) procedurally.
[15:36] <wedgwood> +1 on that
[15:36] <noodles785> salt seems like a good choice (it's python, and they're getting involved with ubuntu stuff too: https://plus.google.com/u/0/116015965439782966698/posts/FhL9ahHqdbR )
[15:36] <jcastro> wedgwood | do we want to choose saltstack over puppet or chef?
[15:36] <mgz_> what's the oldest version of ubuntu that juju actually supports?
[15:36] <jcastro> hey so I'm the ecosystem guy, I of course want to see as many integration points with as many tools as possible
[15:37] <jcastro> wedgwood: that probably doesn't jive with your real-world needs though, heh
[15:37] <wedgwood> noodles785: The structure isn't there, but I envision this going somewhere like charmhelpers.package.saltstack. please feel free to suggest a better namespace
[15:37] <wedgwood> (there=in the package, yet)
[15:38] <noodles785> wedgwood: that sounds fine - but why not charmhelpers.contrib.saltstack ?
[15:39] <wedgwood> noodles785: that works too. right now, contrib implies temporary and unstable, but that can develop over time to be the home for things like this
[15:39] <noodles785> wedgwood: cool, I'll update it to that, and rename the two methods so that they're obviously salt and not generic (?)
[15:40] <wedgwood> noodles785: and btw, this looks great and I think it'll be immedately useful to other too
[15:40] <wedgwood> noodles785: that would be perfect
[15:40] <noodles785> Excellent, will do. Thanks!
[15:41] <wedgwood> mgz_: I seem to remember that we shipped some version with oneiric, but I could be wrong
[15:41] <jcastro> mgz_: we have oneiric stuff in the store
[15:42] <jcastro> but it's not very supported, it's there but I don't think we officially say it's supported
[15:42] <jcastro> "we only care about precise" is a good reflection of the current reality
[15:43] <mgz_> thanks guys, responding to mailing list post
[15:54] <rick_h__> jcastro: I think that's on the way out, well the browser is removing it
[15:58] <arosales> Charm Meeting starting at the top of the hour. Pad URL = http://pad.ubuntu.com/7mf2jvKXNa
[15:58] <jcastro> Charm hangout in a few minutes, you can follow along on http://ubuntuonair.com
[15:58] <jcastro> or just ask us to jump in if you want to participate
[15:58] <jcastro> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/41d46ad46b450f9e8a5d57259121f6ed436e6af9?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:34] <_mup_> Bug #1190293 was filed: preinstall packages for charms <juju:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1190293>
[16:44] <jcastro> marcoceppi: I need the youtube link for the video when you have it
[16:46] <marcoceppi> jcastro: waiting for it to upload
[16:48] <marcoceppi> jcastro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0qaxWHnqxNQ
[17:38] <jcastro> negronjl: https://code.launchpad.net/~patrick-hetu/charms/precise/gunicorn/python-rewrite/+merge/167088
[17:38] <jcastro> this is ready!
[18:21] <FunnyLookinHat> Do the images at http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/precise/current/ come ready with a specific key-pair or password?
[18:23] <jcastro> smoser: ^^
[18:23] <jcastro> I think it's ubuntu/ubuntu but not sure
[18:24] <arosales> also utlemming  may know.
[18:24] <arosales> I _think_ the default user was made optional in the latest images
[18:24] <arosales> default user = ubuntu
[18:25] <smoser> :)
[18:25] <smoser> of course they do not
[18:25] <smoser> in 12.10 there is no user at all in the image
[18:25] <FunnyLookinHat> smoser, just a keypair ?
[18:26] <jcastro> http://ubuntu-smoser.blogspot.com/2013/02/using-ubuntu-cloud-images-without-cloud.html
[18:26] <smoser> in 12.04 and prior, there was a 'ubuntu' user, but its password login was locked.
[18:26] <FunnyLookinHat> jcastro, perfect, thx
[18:26] <smoser> jcastro's link will get you want you want. (assuming what you want is to be able to login)
[19:42] <cmars232> is anyone working on a charm for the horde PHP applications, esp webmail?
[19:45] <jcastro> I've not seen anyone working on that
[19:45] <jcastro> it's up for grabs if you want to snag it!
[19:45] <jcastro> we have a mailstack and MySQL already, I think you'd just need the fronend bits
[19:50] <jcastro> marcoceppi: m_3: is there any other nuclear option remaining for removing drupal6?
[19:51] <lifeless> jcastro: you want more nukes? or non-nuke options ? :)
[19:54] <jcastro> I think nuking it is the only way to be sure
[19:57] <cmars232> jcastro: mailstack.. excellent. will consider it, though it might be a non-trivial first charm. thx
[19:58] <cmars232> jcastro: where is mailstack, i don't see it in the charm store? does that include postfix, etc.?
[19:58] <jcastro> http://jujucharms.com/~ivoks/precise/mail-stack-delivery
[19:58] <cmars232> ah
[19:58] <jcastro> I'll annoy ivoks to get back to working on it
[20:04] <m_3> jcsackett: hmmm... dunno
[20:05] <m_3> jcsackett: sorry, that was meant for jcastro
[20:05] <m_3> but he quit the channel
[20:05] <m_3> win 19
[21:34] <jhf> hey all - trying to understand charm upgrades. is it expected that charms can do an "in-place" upgrade?  for my charm (which installs Liferay, a java-based portal server with an embedded Tomcat servlet container), I really need to a)stop the server, b) extract the new bits to a parallel directory to the old bits, c) copy and change config files, d) start up the new bits, and e) delete the old bits. this seems *really* heavyweight.
[21:34] <jhf> not to mention, the new bits would now be in a different directory than the old bits.
[21:35] <jhf> so I can't just re-install over top the old bits, with the server still running. that would not  be good for the system.
[21:37] <sarnold> jhf: can you not re-organize those a litle? something like (a) extract new bits into temp directory (b) copy and change config files (c) stop the server (d) rename running directory to old, rename new directory to running (d) start the server (e) delete the old bits
[21:37] <sarnold> directory renames are near enough to instant (especially compared to jvm startup)
[21:38] <jhf> yep I sure could… that sounds like a good approach, but what about the relations established on the "old" bits?  does juju need to know anything, can I just do what you suggest without juju knowing?
[21:39] <jhf> it won't call any other hooks besides upgrade-charm, during an upgrade?
[21:39] <sarnold> I know the order of hook calls is well-defined, but I'm less certain about timing
[21:39] <jhf> like the db relation in particular. are any of the db-relation-* hooks called during an upgrade ?
[21:41] <jhf> https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/charm-upgrades.html implies that this is the only hook called during an upgrade.  "After the upgrade-charm hook is executed, new hooks of the charm will be utilized to respond to any system changes."
[21:42] <jhf> I presume that means that other hooks are only called in response to operator actions like adding/removing relations
[21:42] <jhf> but not automatically, as part of the upgrade process
[21:42] <sarnold> oh, nice :)
[22:23] <marcoceppi> jhf: no other hooks, other than hooks/upgrade-charm will be run by juju. If you want to execute a hook you'll need to execute it inside the hooks/upgrade-hook hook
[22:23] <marcoceppi> err hooks/upgrade-charm* hook
[22:23] <m_3> jhf: or... just use config for service "upgrades" :)
[22:24] <marcoceppi> +1, use a "version" configuration option to allow users to move between and "pin" a version of the software
[22:24] <m_3> upgrade-charm just for upgrading the charm bits themselves... doesn't _necessarily_ even need to stop the service
[22:25] <m_3> best practice is on the fence between those approaches... depends on what's more natural for the service
[22:25] <sarnold> I feel like this is an area for juju to provide more opinion :)
[22:25] <m_3> sarnold: ack
[22:25] <m_3> ok, so do it my way :)
[22:25] <m_3> jk
[22:26] <m_3> I really do like the upgrade in config
[22:26] <m_3> but there's really a lot of variation between services
[22:26] <m_3> I guess the framework charms are the worst
[22:26] <sarnold> I'll grant it is difficult because every service is slightly different.. and some vastly different.. but i think someone administering a few thousand nodes would much prefer them to all act identically across all services for all service upgrades.
[22:26] <m_3> charm bits with versions, framework bits with versions, other deps with verisons, and then an actual application with versions
[22:27] <m_3> sarnold: oh, yeah... good point
[22:27] <sarnold> knowing which services upgrade themselvs on charm upgrade and which ones have a config option to set to push an upgrade would be a bit detailed.
[22:27] <m_3> yeah
[22:27] <m_3> sarnold: but often you're infra is only a dozen or so actual services
[22:27] <m_3> even if it's 15,000 instances
[22:27] <sarnold> m_3: true.
[22:28] <m_3> but yeah, good point... I'd be in favor of restricting upgrade-charm to just do the charm bits
[22:28] <m_3> push all service upgrades into config
[22:28] <m_3> makes charms more complicated in general though
[22:28] <m_3> so steeper learning
[22:28] <m_3> but...
[22:29] <m_3> that'd at least be consistent between framework charms and other charms
[22:30] <m_3> upgrade-charm only upgrades charms
[22:31] <sarnold> I presume it's a bit late to suggest upgrade-service hooks? :)
[22:31] <m_3> sarnold: ha
[22:31] <m_3> nope, suggest away!
[22:32] <m_3> well, I can't say about late or not
[22:32] <m_3> but... suggest away!
[22:32] <m_3> :)
[22:33] <sarnold> hey! I suggest an upgrade-service hook to explicitly upgrade a service, so upgrade-charm can perform exactly charm upgrades!
[22:33] <sarnold> proposed. :)
[22:33] <m_3> the bug'll go smoother if you're asking rather than me
[22:37] <marcoceppi> sarnold: You could always just write a hooks/upgrade-service and have config-changed run it when someone changes the version config option
[22:38]  * marcoceppi runs away
[22:39] <m_3> :)
[22:39] <sarnold> marcoceppi: hahaha
[22:39] <sarnold> marcoceppi: actually..
[22:39] <m_3> makes sense
[22:39] <m_3> future-proof?
[22:39] <sarnold> that feels like a very reasonable Best Practice to suggest.
[22:40] <marcoceppi> sarnold: well, i'd be better to create an upgrade_service function and just stub it in the config-changed hook
[22:40] <sarnold> I don't really care about the details; it just seems like the current "whatever the charm author wants" is a bit vague and more opinion could help.
[22:40] <m_3> one of the biggest best practices I'd like to start pushing is to put your hook impls in a library...
[22:40] <marcoceppi> I wouldn't want to polute the hooks/ space with non-hook files
[22:40] <marcoceppi> m_3: +1
[22:40] <m_3> marcoceppi: yeah, exactly!!!
[22:40] <m_3> sarnold: yes, accepted... wild wild west only works for so long
[22:41] <m_3> we did actually get some great ideas from organic growth though
[22:41] <m_3> we just gotta now clean things up
[22:42] <sarnold> m_3: that's cool to hear :)
[23:37] <AskUbuntu> how to turn on and start openstack and openvswitch in a 32 bit machine running ubuntu 13.04? | http://askubuntu.com/q/307514
[23:38] <marcoceppi> Does someone have a list of all the agent-states that pyjuju and gojuju show?