[00:03] <poolie> dhi
[00:56] <schierbeck> jelmer: still awake?
[01:06] <schierbeck> hey guys, is anybody besides me having trouble opening the bzr mainline with the viz in bzr-gtk trunk?
[01:07] <fullermd> It does seem to be working very hard at doing nothing...
[01:07] <fullermd> No CPU, no IO...
[01:08] <fullermd> Oh, wait.
[01:08] <fullermd> That may be that error in bzr with ghosts; not bzr-gtk.
[01:09] <schierbeck> okay
[01:09]  * fullermd doesn't really know; just guessing.
[01:09] <schierbeck> well, i'm hoping :)
[01:09] <schierbeck> i've got enough work already!
[01:10] <fullermd> It works on other trees, and the backtrace looks like a place a ghost could cause cliff-off-falling.
[01:12] <schierbeck> in Repository.sign_revision(), what the heck does gpg_strategy mean?
[01:12] <schierbeck> can i just leave it as None? it's not documented at all...
[01:36] <mw-home> I just install bzr-svn by running bzr branch in my home plugins dir.  Now bzr won't do anything.  Keeps complaining about cannot import CachingParentsProvider.
[01:37] <mw-home> Do I need to run sudo python setup.py install first?
[01:37] <mw-home> cd -
[01:38] <lifeless> mw-home: I think you have a version mismatch
[01:38] <mw-home> lifeless: between the plugin and my base bzr?
[01:39] <lifeless> yes
[01:39] <mw-home> I'm running bzr 1.0 and bzr-svn 0.4.10dev0.
[01:40] <lifeless> mw-home: http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion?action=show#releases
[01:44] <mw-home> so i clearly need something different than bzr 1.0.  lifeless, thanks for straightening me out.
[01:45] <fullermd> Trunk bzr-svn generally goes with trunk bzr.dev.  It may still work with 1.3 currently, but 1.0 is back far enough now that it's not too surprising.
[01:45] <lifeless> igc: ping
[01:45] <lifeless> mw-home: or an older bzr-svn :)
[01:46] <igc> hi lifeless
[01:46] <lifeless> igc: I really want to nuke that cache
[01:46] <lifeless> igc: our discussion seems to have petered out
[01:46] <igc> the one in fastimport for the inv_vf?
[01:46] <lifeless> yes
[01:46] <igc> no problem
[01:47] <justdave> so maybe I'm just completely blind, but I'm not finding what I'm looking for in the docs...  if I want to update a working directory to a revision that's older than the head of the branch, what do I do? (equiv of cvs/svn up -rREVSPEC)
[01:47] <justdave> bzr up doesn't seem to take a revision as an argument
[01:47] <lifeless> justdave: revert
[01:47] <igc> lifeless: as long as you're aware that it was helping, I'm ok with it going ...
[01:47] <justdave> that works going forward I assume, too?
[01:47] <mw-home> do most people in here use a distribution pkg for bzr, or download some other way?
[01:47] <lifeless> igc: it doesn't seem to help enough to justify its existence to me.
[01:48] <justdave> like if my working directory is on r5179 and I want to update it to r5185, while the repository I'm pulling from is actually on r5190...
[01:48] <fullermd> justdave: bug 45719
[01:48] <fullermd> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/45719
[01:48] <justdave> yeah, looks like that does work. :)
[01:49] <justdave> the name of the command just makes it confusing :)
[01:49] <igc> lifeless: understood. I think the stuff you're doing is more important than the short term gain I'm getting
[01:50] <fullermd> Name of the command?
[01:51] <fullermd> Oh, you mean using revert?
[01:51] <justdave> so if I'm updating a website based on a tag that gets moved periodically to the revision that we want to be live on the site, my cron job needs to do "bzr revert -rtag:production"
[01:52] <fullermd> Well, not really.  It needs to update -r.  The option just doesn't exist.
[01:52] <fullermd> Of course, if it's a branch by itself, you can use pull -r; that may be the best solution in that case.
[01:53] <justdave> using pull just tells me "No revisions to pull."
[01:53] <justdave> no matter what revision I specify
[01:53] <mw-home> thanks for all the help.
[01:53] <fullermd> Well, if that rev is already the head, that's what you expect.
[01:54] <igc> lifeless: removed and pushed to lp
[01:54] <justdave> doesn't seem to matter.
[01:54] <justdave> I can bzr revert -r(older rev), and then bzr pull -r(current) and it still says that
[01:55] <fullermd> Don't do the revert beforehand.
[01:56]  * fullermd sighs.
[01:56] <fullermd> Pulling 1 rev of bzr.dev:
[01:56] <fullermd> Now on revision 3320.
[01:56] <fullermd> 5.352u 0.434s 1:29.75 6.4%      114+147k 274+19io 7pf+0w
[01:56] <fullermd> Pulling 4 months of mutt changes (hg):
[01:56] <fullermd> added 199 changesets with 417 changes to 121 files
[01:56] <fullermd> 119 files updated, 0 files merged, 10 files removed, 0 files unresolved
[01:56] <fullermd> 5.813u 0.396s 0:12.90 48.0%     124+161k 459+32io 0pf+0w
[01:57] <justdave> # bzr up
[01:57] <justdave> Tree is up to date at revision 5181.
[01:57] <justdave> # bzr pull -r5179
[01:57] <justdave> No revisions to pull.
[01:57] <fullermd> You need --overwrite to step backward.
[01:57] <fullermd> (or sideways)
[01:57] <justdave> bingo
[01:57] <justdave> All changes applied successfully.
[01:57] <justdave> Now on revision 5179.
[01:58] <fullermd> (of course, that pull if you had the files reverted might do some wacky things...)
[01:58] <justdave> ok, so "bzr pull --overwrite -rtag:production" is what I want on my cron job then
[01:58] <sssslang> hi there, could some one give me an advise about which gui to use under windows. i'm a newbee, thanks.
[01:58] <fullermd> Noop pull on bzr.dev takes as long as that whole hg pull.  Sigh.
[01:58]  * fullermd wants smarts.
[01:59] <fullermd> sssslang: I think the main choices are bzr-gtk and qbzr.  bzr-gtk is more complete and seems to be a bit more work to get installed.  qbzr looks more native.
[02:01] <fullermd> (all that AIUI; I don't really use either one)
[02:02] <sssslang> fullermd: thanks. what about TortoiseBzr? i heard of it before when using cvs.
[02:03] <fullermd> I think it's still more "proof of concept" than "use this to get work done".
[02:03] <sssslang> i don't use gui, but i just want to select one for my partner.
[02:04] <sssslang> i see. thank you.
[02:05] <fullermd> (though again, I don't use either the GUI's or Windows, so I may be wrong.  That's just what I've picked up watching IRC/mail)
[02:57] <mwhudson> is there bzrlib for 'delete the branch at this url' ?
[03:00] <mwhudson> i guess i want transport.rmtree, which doesn't seem to exist
[03:08]  * igc lunch
[03:09] <lifeless> mwhudson: there is
[03:09] <lifeless> mwhudson: delete_tree
[03:10] <mwhudson> oh yay
[03:10] <mwhudson> (i was looking in the wrong place)
[03:11] <lifeless> pydoc bzrlib.transport.Transport :>
[03:13] <AfC> lifeless: is that exposed on the command line somehow? ie, is there a way to delete a remote branch which I'm accessing via bzr+ssh://?
[03:14] <AfC> (right now, of course, I'm ssh'ing to the server, cd'ing, and doing rm -r. Hm)
[03:15] <lifeless> AfC: well, 'python -c "import bzrlib.transport; bzrlib.transport.get_transport('url').delete_tree()"' ?
[03:15] <AfC> Let me get right on that
[03:15] <lifeless> AfC: ssh is simpler :)
[03:16] <AfC> The case I am interested in is where you have ssh access to run bzr commands but not an  remote shell.
[03:16] <AfC> (which is what we offer our users)
[03:16] <AfC> (I gather Launchpad is the same? Anyway)
[03:17] <AfC> I have to delete their obsolete branches for them. Kinda ugly. You're saying I should ask them to run that snippet? Very well.
[03:17] <mwhudson> launchpad allows sftp, which somewhat allows the same
[03:18] <spiv> Launchpad offers no shell, although it does offer a web UI that can delete branches.
[03:18] <Peng> There's no need to delete obsolete branches..
[03:20] <spiv> Peng: it is useful if you like to browse branches to get a sense of what's being worked on.
[03:21] <Peng> Yeah.
[03:21] <spiv> (presupposing a mechanism to browse collections of branches, of course)
[03:21] <Peng> I leave my branches around forever, using Launchpad to mark them as merged or abandoned or whatever.
[03:25] <lifeless> AfC: no really saying that that snippet is a good answer; just thats the only answer in bzrlib today
[03:31] <lifeless> I hate test_35_wait_lock_changing
[03:48] <Peng> Yay, I had a weird problem with bzr-svn (traceback trying to branch something, then "not a branch"), but I upgraded, and now it's ok. :)
[04:57] <Peng> So what's the status of bzr.dev and http://bazaar.launchpad.net/, what with bug 207558?
[04:59] <lifeless> bug 207558?
[05:01] <jdong> lol
[05:01] <jdong> seveas upgraded to hardy.
[05:01] <jdong> hilarity ensues.
[05:03] <spiv> Peng: I'm working on it atm
[05:07] <fullermd> spiv: Hey, I had a Q about that root_client_path thing you merged in today...
[05:08] <fullermd> spiv: I'm not sure I understand its implications.  Could that be useful in the case where the request paths aren't directly under a common root?
[05:08] <Peng> spiv: Ok.
[05:09] <Peng> Oh, ubotu isn't here?
[05:11] <spiv> fullermd: hmm, I'm not sure.  It's just designed so that you can publish e.g. /home/code/project-x at bzr+http://host/bzr/repos/x-project
[05:12] <fullermd> spiv: I have the [recreational] desire to get the smart server in bed with UserDir's...
[05:13] <spiv> So you can effectively designate some path in your public URL space as the root of the bzr-served area, and then have that consistently translated to an underlying transport.
[05:13] <fullermd> Hm.  So that wouldn't really apply...
[05:13] <lifeless> fullermd: ~ translation just needs a transport adapter I think
[05:14] <spiv> fullermd: what lifeless said :)
[05:14]  * fullermd gets his Greek-to-English dictionary out...
[05:15] <spiv> fullermd: e.g. write a plugin that registers a transport for the "userdir:" URL scheme, and use that as the backing transport for your bzr+http server
[05:17] <spiv> So instead of having a SmartWSGIApp that publishes '/home/code/project-x', it could publish "userdir:///".
[05:17] <lifeless> spiv: well, I was thinking something that looks for ~ and does userdir expansion
[05:17] <lifeless> spiv: but yeah
[05:18] <fullermd> Either way, it sounds like it classifies solidly as "bzr hackers might be able to get this working".  So, I guess I'll leave that laying for a while yet.
[05:19] <lifeless> always need more help fullermd
[05:19] <fullermd> Well, my port of bzrlib to perl is a little stalled...
[05:20] <lifeless> I said help :)
[05:20] <fullermd> I am helping; it's stalled   ;)
[08:19] <mdke> lifeless: thanks very much for your email
[09:13] <fullermd> It's kinda odd that 'missing' doesn't have --remember, and doesn't remember by default either.  And doesn't use the submit branch...
[09:14] <james_w> sounds like the start of a soppy song... "oh, if only I could remember all those missing revisions..."
[09:16] <fullermd> Hm.  Yeah.  Simon and Garfunkel.
[09:32] <igc> night all
[09:34] <james_w> night igc
[09:42] <james_w> igc: thanks for the proposed new hook, it could well make bzr great for use with ikiwiki
[09:48] <james_w> does anyone understand this?
[09:48] <james_w> http://release.debian.org/migration/testing.pl?package=bzr-builddeb
[09:48] <james_w> it seems to be a bit of a circular argument.
[09:49] <james_w> it might be http://release.debian.org/migration/testing.pl?package=bzr-svn that is the root of it then
[09:50] <siretart> james_w: we need to ask the release team to add a hint that the bzr related package need to go in together
[09:51] <siretart> james_w: or we could just prod dato, since he is a member of the debian release team ;)
[09:54] <james_w> ah, I see, thanks siretart
[10:15] <dato> siretart, james_w: I added a hint, should be done in a couple days, when bzr-svn is ready to migrate
[10:16] <james_w> dato: thanks
[10:38] <schierbeck> jelmer: hi
[10:43] <jelmer> schierbeck: hey
[10:44] <schierbeck> have a look at lp:~bzr-gtk/bzr-gtk/seahorse-integration
[10:44] <schierbeck> it's rocking.
[10:44] <schierbeck> i've got key fingerprints and trust down nown
[10:44] <schierbeck> *now
[10:44] <schierbeck> though i still need to fix some bugs
[10:52] <jelmer> cool
[10:52] <jelmer> schierbeck: any chance you can review my other two patches I sent to the list?
[10:53] <jelmer> ([MERGE] Signatures tab and [MERGE] Split identity settings out of main preferences window.)
[10:55] <jamesh> jelmer: thanks for looking at my commit-notify patch
[10:55] <schierbeck> jelmer: sure
[10:59] <jamesh> now I just need to get lifeless to review the bzr-dbus bits
[10:59] <jamesh> :)
[11:01] <jelmer> schierbeck: thanks
[11:02] <schierbeck> okay
[11:02] <schierbeck> looked over the settings branch, looks good!
[11:02] <schierbeck> jelmer: btw, do you think we should rename the "signature" tab label to "trust"?
[11:03] <schierbeck> i think it makes more sense
[11:03] <schierbeck> since a signature doesn't really mean anything if you don't trust it.
[11:04] <jelmer> schierbeck: I'd rather call it signature for now
[11:04] <jelmer> Since trust can mean different things here
[11:05] <jelmer> Does it mean you trust the person who made the signature to have made the commit, or does it mean you trust them to write good code without security bugs?
[11:05] <schierbeck> that could be differentiated in the tab ui
[11:06] <schierbeck> i.e. [x] Trust that this revision was committed by 'John Doe'
[11:06] <schierbeck> and [x] Trust the validness of this revision
[11:07] <schierbeck> where validness would be replaced with a proper word...
[11:07] <jamesh> jelmer/schierbeck: if you want to do signature verification, maybe try pygpgme
[11:07] <jamesh> I haven't done much work on it recently, but it works pretty well
[11:07] <schierbeck> jamesh: we're looking at using the seahorse dbus service right now, but i'll take a look
[11:08] <james_w> I don't know if you guys know, but we had a discussion on signatures at the sprint
[11:08] <jelmer> schierbeck: The problem is that bzr can only store signatures at the moment and afaik it's not really clear what they mean
[11:08] <schierbeck> jup, that's been an issue for a while
[11:09] <james_w> it's not clear that what we have now is the best approach, so it may be re-evaluated.
[11:09] <schierbeck> remember discussing it a few months ago
[11:09] <jamesh> schierbeck: okay.  From memory, seahorse is built on top of gpgme, so they should be mostly equivalent
[11:09] <jamesh> it just changes who forks and exec's gpg
[11:09] <schierbeck> jamesh: i think a review system integrated into bzr would be nice
[11:09] <james_w> I've been tasked with writing a spec about it
[11:09] <jelmer> schierbeck: that's why I'd rather stay away from assigning trust, etc for now
[11:09] <schierbeck> jelmer: i see your point
[11:10] <jamesh> bzr has enough hooks now that the jam's old signing plugin could be extended to do useful things now
[11:10] <james_w> or at least a document about the issues, and the fact that the point of a signature is not currently clear is the biggest problem with the current state for me
[11:10] <jamesh> like refuse merges that aren't signed by a trusted key
[11:10] <schierbeck> what about having review keywords, like "approve", and then just sign the keyword and sha1-sum?
[11:11] <schierbeck> bzr review <approve|reject|...> -r <revision>
[11:13] <schierbeck> the idea would be that all history up to that revision would then be "approved"
[11:13] <schierbeck> just an idea, though
[11:20] <schierbeck> jelmer: okay, i've pushed some further changes to lp
[11:20] <schierbeck> the new implementation now exceeds the old in functionality
[11:21] <schierbeck> jamesh: does pugpgme have any documentation?
[11:21] <schierbeck> *py*
[11:22] <jamesh> schierbeck: not really.  The API is mostly the same as the C one though.
[11:22] <jamesh> and the tests cover pretty much all the entry points
[11:22] <schierbeck> jamesh: okay
[11:23] <schierbeck> perhaps i'll switch to it later on
[11:23] <schierbeck> also depends on distribution stuff
[11:25] <jelmer> schierbeck: I'd rather use seahorse than pygpgme since seahorses password prompting will always be gtk based
[11:25] <jamesh> schierbeck: whatever you do, don't use pyme
[11:26] <jamesh> it is one of the worst kinds of swig generated Python extension
[11:26] <ubotu> New bug: #210053 in bzr "no way to edit subject when using bzr send builtin editor" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210053
[11:26] <ubotu> New bug: #210092 in bzr "Bazaar raises AssertionError in TreeTransformBase.version_file: 'file_id is not None'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210092
[11:27] <jelmer> schierbeck: the seahorse-integration branch gives me list out of range exceptions
[11:28] <ubotu> New bug: #209849 in bzr "Bazaar chokes when running commands over SFTP" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209849
[11:28] <ubotu> New bug: #209948 in bzr "bzr log failure (possible regression)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209948
[11:28] <ubotu> New bug: #209998 in bzr-gtk "Should integrate with Seahorse" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209998
[11:30] <ubotu> New bug: #209912 in bzr "--hardlink option produce traceback on Windows" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209912
[11:36] <g0nzal0> hello there, I'm trying use bazaar to do personal version control of a little django project
[11:36] <g0nzal0> using Ubuntu 7.10
[11:36] <g0nzal0> I get this: http://dpaste.com/42536/ :(
[11:36] <g0nzal0> when doing commit
[11:36] <g0nzal0> for the first time
[11:37] <AfC> g0nzal0: you really want to be using a version of Bazaar that is not 6 versions old.
[11:37] <AfC> g0nzal0: upgrade to bzr >= 1.3
[11:37] <g0nzal0> AfC: OK!
[11:37] <bob2> g0nzal0: 'bzr commit -q' might succeed
[11:37] <james_w> g0nzal0: what's your locale?
[11:37] <bob2> if that error is from trying to print the filename
[11:37] <AfC> g0nzal0: 0.90 is ancient
[11:38] <g0nzal0> AfC: I thougth so.., thanks
[11:38] <g0nzal0> james_w: es_AR.UTF-8
[11:38] <schierbeck> jelmer: yeah, i noticed
[11:38] <james_w> g0nzal0: there is a PPA you can use to get the latest version
[11:39] <schierbeck> jelmer: it's if you don't have the key
[11:39] <g0nzal0> AfC: I thougth apt-get install bzr would get it
[11:39] <james_w> https://launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive
[11:39] <g0nzal0> james_w: thanks
[11:46]  * AfC is a bit shocked that Ubuntu doesn't publish updates of things, but that's ever been the Debian way.
[11:48] <siretart> AfC: ubuntu does update software, even in released version. the updating policy is documented on wiki.ubuntu.com
[11:48] <AfC> Uh huh
[11:55] <schierbeck> jelmer: is it still giving off noise?
[12:04] <jelmer> schierbeck: let me try
[12:04] <jelmer> dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.GLib.UnmappedError.Seahorse.Code1: Invalid key id:
[12:06] <schierbeck> jelmer: you're at revision 427?
[12:07] <jelmer> schierbeck: yes
[12:07] <schierbeck> hmm
[12:07] <schierbeck> i'll see if i'm running an old version of seahorse
[12:08] <schierbeck> i'm running 2.20.1
[12:08] <jelmer> GNOME seahorse 2.22.0
[12:10] <schierbeck> you're running hardy, right?
[12:10] <jelmer> no, Sid
[12:11] <schierbeck> okay
[12:11] <schierbeck> i'm not sure what's changed in the api
[12:12] <schierbeck> can you try using self.get_id() instead of self.key in GetKeyField() et al?
[12:14] <jelmer> dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.GLib.UnmappedError.Seahorse.Code1: Invalid key id:
[12:16] <schierbeck> what method is throwing it?
[12:17] <schierbeck> is it discover() or one of the getters?
[12:18] <jelmer> not sure, the machine I was runnig it on just crashed :-(
[12:32] <sabdfl> is bzr.dev having a crisis of identity?
[12:32] <sabdfl> peregrine% ./bzr pull                                        ~/software/bzr.dev
[12:32] <sabdfl> Using saved location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk/
[12:32] <sabdfl> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk/".
[12:33] <Peng> sabdfl: >= r3309?
[12:33] <Peng> sabdfl: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/207558
[12:34] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 207558 in bzr ""bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/...." fails with bzr.dev >= r3309" [Critical,In progress]
[12:34] <sabdfl> 3323
[12:34] <Peng> ubotu: When did you get back?
[12:34] <Peng> Fuck! X-Chat's dying again.
[12:34] <Peng> Or, some less-obscene variant of that sentence.
[12:43] <schierbeck> jelmer: still no luck?
[12:48] <ubotu> New bug: #210142 in bzr "Log comments cannot be changed/edited/annotated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210142
[12:50] <mtaylor> is there a way to change a repository from --with-trees to --without-trees without recreating it?
[12:50] <dato> mtaylor: there is `touch .bzr/repository/no-working-trees`
[12:51] <mtaylor> dato: nice :)
[12:54] <schierbeck> hmm, perhaps i should work on my exam assignment today...
[12:54] <schierbeck> i always get so god damned productive when i have exams!
[12:55] <schierbeck> just in the wrong areas...
[13:12] <jelmer> schierbeck: one sec
[13:13] <jelmer> schierbeck: http://pastebin.org/26636
[13:14] <jelmer> schierbeck: yeah, I always get that as well.. the more you have to do, the more interesting other things become :(
[13:46] <ubotu> New bug: #210218 in bzr ""bzr send" fails if branch nick contains a slash" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210218
[14:51] <aantn> hello
[14:51] <aantn> can I get bzr merge to ignore two revisions from the merge source?
[14:51] <aantn> I'd like it to merge all revisions after revision number x
[14:52] <aantn> and permanently ignore the revisions before that
[14:54] <aantn> The man page explains that "If you specify two revisions, the first will be used as a BASE,
[14:54] <aantn>   and the second one as OTHER."
[14:54] <aantn> I'm not sure what the 'other' means
[14:55] <luks> you would need to cherry-pick those revisions
[14:55] <luks> which has it's disadvantages
[14:55] <luks> regular merge will only merge the whole branch
[14:56] <luks> no easy way to workaround it, because it would mean that the newer revisions in the new branch have different parents than the same revisions in the old branch
[14:57] <luks> what you can do is a full merge, and then revert those X revisions with a reversed merge
[14:58] <aantn> I'm not sure I follow...
[14:58] <luks> which part?
[14:58] <luks> or the whole monologue? :)
[14:58] <aantn> luks: why a regular merge beginning from a specific number wont work
[14:59] <luks> because revisions in bzr have some identifiers and have defined their parent revisions
[14:59] <luks> if you merge from some specific revisions, you would break the original revision parent<->children chain
[14:59] <luks> bzr allows you to do that, but it will look differently from a regular merge
[15:00] <luks> (it's called cherry-picking)
[15:03] <luks> what is your use case for this?
[15:03] <aantn> hmm...
[15:03] <aantn> I run my own branch that really is probably going to split from the trunk
[15:04] <aantn> I've already added the feature that those revisions add to the trunk
[15:04] <aantn> And I like the way I implemented it more than the way it was done in trunk
[15:04] <aantn> I think I'll just merge it in and then restore it to what it was before
[15:04] <luks> yes, that's the best solution I think
[15:04] <luks> do a full merge, and revert those specific changes
[15:05] <aantn> luks: is there a command to do that, or should I just do it by hand?
[15:05] <luks> well, if they are touching the same code, you will have conflicts on the merge
[15:07] <luks> so you will probably have to do manually anyway
[15:07] <aantn> luks: probably
[15:07] <aantn> thanks
[15:07] <luks> `bzr shelve` could help probably
[15:07] <luks> that is, in case you don't have textual conflicts, but want to revert specific changes
[15:07] <luks> if those changes affect whole files, you can simply use `bzr revert path/to/file`
[15:09] <aantn> luks: that should work
[15:12] <Peng> What's that simple POST to see if an HTTP smart server is alive, that just returns "ok2"?
[15:21] <james_w> Peng: there's a hello plugin
[15:22] <james_w> so I think you can do bzr hello bzr+http://wherever
[15:51] <ubotu> New bug: #210280 in bzr "unable to obtain lock after push failure" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210280
[15:53] <Peng> james_w: That's true. I've even downloaded it, but never installed it.
[15:53] <Peng> I've got it.
[15:54] <Peng> $ echo hello | POST http://.../.bzr/smart
[16:06] <Peng> bzr-hello is neat too.
[17:09] <cody-somerville> What is the command to build a debian package from a repository?
[17:10] <LeoNerd> apt-get source foo;  debuild ?
[17:10] <Peng> There's bzr-builddeb.
[17:10] <cody-somerville> Thanks Peng
[17:10] <LeoNerd> Oh.. that :)
[17:10] <cody-somerville> Are you sure thats the command?
[17:11] <cody-somerville> oh, I guess I don't have it installed
[17:11]  * cody-somerville thought he did.
[17:13] <Peng> Yeah, it's a package. I don't know what the command is.
[17:14] <cody-somerville> fun
[17:24] <james_w> cody-somerville: try without the -
[17:24] <james_w> bzr builddeb
[17:47] <beuno> poolie, lifeless, did you manage to send in the paper for debconf?
[17:51] <james_w> hi besonen_mobile2
[17:51] <james_w> and beuno, hi to you too
[17:51] <beuno> hey james_w!  how are you?
[17:52] <james_w> good, how are you?
[17:52] <beuno> pretty good, finally caught up with most of the stuff I had left fall behind  :)
[17:52] <beuno> how's your new work?
[17:53] <james_w> it's going great thanks.
[17:54] <beuno> I'm glad :)
[18:06] <jelmer> hi james_w
[18:06] <jelmer> james_w: Did you see the bug report I filed on bzr-builddeb's timestamps?
[18:06] <jelmer> james_w: Took me a while to figure out what was causing those differing checksums...
[18:06] <james_w> jelmer: yeah I did
[18:07] <james_w> I haven't had time to look at though I'm afraid
[18:07] <dato> is it going to work by just using the same timestamps?
[18:07] <james_w> I don't know
[18:07] <jelmer> dato: yep, a diff on the tarfile showed that was the only thing that differed
[18:07] <dato> fwiw joeyh wrote pristine-tar for stuff like this
[18:07] <dato> jelmer: aha
[18:07] <jelmer> dato: that's the other way around though
[18:08] <james_w> dato: i'd like to integrate it, but there's no easy place to stash the diff in bzr
[18:08] <dato> james_w: true...
[18:19] <jelmer> james_w: Hmm, looks like that's actually a bug deep inside the bzr export code...
[18:21] <james_w> jelmer: that it doesn't set the timestamps, or something else?
[18:22] <jelmer> james_w: it explicitly sets the timestamp to time()
[18:23] <jelmer> the exporting happens from a revision tree, when there is no revision object around anymore
[18:24] <jelmer> bzrlib/export/tar_exporter.py:33
[18:24] <james_w> I can get the revision object in builddeb and set the timestamp then
[18:25] <jelmer> you mean avoid the standard bzr export code?
[18:26] <james_w> no, just set the timestamp after
[18:27] <james_w> if I could do it with the bzr export code that would be better obviously
[18:27] <james_w> a timestamp= parameter or something
[18:29] <jelmer> james_w: there is no generic timestamp argument passed to the argument code at the moment
[18:29] <jelmer> though one could be added, I guess
[18:30] <james_w> yeah, I don't know if it could be done without breaking other exporters, I'm not looking at the code at the moment.
[18:31] <james_w> that would probably be the cleanest way though.
[18:36] <jdong> james_w: any hints on http://launchpadlibrarian.net/13012802/buildlog_ubuntu-hardy-i386.bzr-builddeb_0.93_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz?
[18:37] <james_w> Unable to load plugin 'builddeb' from '/build/buildd/bzr-builddeb-0.93/build/lib/bzrlib/plugins'
[18:37] <james_w> that's annoying
[18:37] <james_w> we need a -Dplugin_loading or something
[18:38] <james_w> it means that I want the ~/.bzr.log to debug it
[18:38] <james_w> jdong: there's no easy way to run the testsuite from debian/rules, I thought this way would be it, but it only seems to have built in mine and my sponsor's chroots
[18:39] <james_w> so I don't know what the fix is exactly.
[18:39] <james_w> perhaps just to disable the testsuite during the build.
[18:39] <james_w> though I don't like doing that
[18:40] <jdong> james_w: odd enough it worked in my pbuilder too....
[18:40] <jdong> james_w: hmm I'll disable the test suite for now so we don't lose the bzr-builddeb binary entirely while we investigate a better fix
[18:40] <james_w> thanks
[18:41] <james_w> the other alternative is to cat ~/.bzr.log if that command fails, just so we can debug it properly
[19:02] <schierbec1> jelmer: ping
[19:06] <jelmer> schierbec1: pong
[19:08] <schierbec1> jelmer: i'm tweaking the sig tab labels
[19:08] <schierbec1> i'm thinking: a bold headline and a longer description
[19:09] <schierbec1> such as:
[19:09] <schierbec1> *Authenticity unknown*
[19:09] <schierbec1> This revision has not been signed; it may be forged.
[19:09] <schierbec1> etc.
[19:09] <schierbec1> what do yuo think?
[19:09] <schierbec1> *you
[19:10] <jelmer> schierbec1: The fact there is a signature doesn't say the revision is or isn't forged
[19:10] <jelmer> schierbec1: I can forge one of your revisions and sign it.
[19:11] <schierbec1> jelmer: yeah, but signed + trusted key => not forged, right?
[19:11] <jelmer> schierbec1: no, that implies you trust all people whose keys you've signed to not forge revisions
[19:11] <schierbec1> well, okay then
[19:12] <schierbec1> but then the whole idea of signatures kind of goes away
[19:12] <schierbec1> if you can't even trust your trusted friend to f00k you over
[19:12] <jelmer> schierbec1: right, but that's what the whole discussion about signatures in bzrlib was about
[19:13] <schierbec1> jelmer: what if we match the signature name + email with the committer's?
[19:14] <jelmer> schierbec1: yeah, that would make some sense
[19:14] <schierbec1> so a revision signed by its author is authentic if the key is trusted?
[19:14] <jelmer> schierbec1: yeah
[19:14] <mdke> quick question. When I upgrade a branch from dirstate-with-subtree to rich-root-pack (on Launchpad), what will the other users of the branch need to do to get the changes? upgrade their branches too or get them again?
[19:15] <jelmer> mdke: afaik they should be able to continue pulling if they have bzr >= 1.0
[19:15] <mdke> jelmer: and pushing?
[19:15] <jelmer> mdke: pushing will still be possible too
[19:16] <mdke> cool, thanks. but to get the benefits they need to upgrade right?
[19:16] <jelmer> mdke: it'll be slower than it can be though, so I would highly encourage them to also upgrade to --rich-root-pack
[19:16] <mdke> fine, thanks a lot
[19:16] <jelmer> schierbec1: so I think we have 4 situations then:
[19:16] <jelmer> or rather 5
[19:16] <schierbec1> jelmer: so we have four cases: (unsigned), (signed - trusted), (signed + trusted - committer), and (signed + trusted + committer) ?
[19:17] <schierbec1> oh
[19:17] <schierbec1> what's the fifth?
[19:17] <schierbec1> well, (signed + committer - trusted)
[19:17] <jelmer> yeah, 4
[19:17] <jelmer> schierbec1: no signature, signed by trusted author, signed by untrusted party, signed by trusted person (not author)
[19:18] <mw-home> does bzr have keywords like $Id: $ ?
[19:18] <jelmer> okay, that matches what you said
[19:18] <jelmer> mw-home: nope, not yet
[19:18] <schierbec1> i think we should only handle unsigned, signed+trusted+committer and signed-trusted+committer
[19:18] <jelmer> mw-home: there is an open specification about it but nobody working on it yet afaik
[19:18] <schierbec1> that's all related to authenticity
[19:18] <jelmer> schierbec1: I think we should show if somebody who's trusted but not the author has signed
[19:19] <schierbec1> jelmer: yeah, but perhaps delay that a bit
[19:19] <jelmer> schierbec1: We should clearly state that that person is not the author
[19:19] <jelmer> schierbec1: ok
[19:19] <jelmer> schierbec1: We should be checking against committer email btw, not author email
[19:19] <schierbec1> jelmer: i think we should have an 'Authenticity' section
[19:19] <schierbec1> okay
[19:20] <jelmer> schierbec1: also, if the revision is signed by somebody untrusted it's not relevant if that key's email matches the committer email
[19:21] <jelmer> since we can't trust the email on the key to be valid
[19:21] <schierbec1> exactly
[19:22] <schierbec1> jelmer: but we may like to provide the user with the option of trusting the key
[19:22] <jelmer> schierbec1: we should leave that to specific apps such as seahorse imo
[19:22] <schierbec1> if he's spoken with the committer and knows the revision is authentic, we can then trust it (marginally)
[19:23] <schierbec1> jelmer: seahorse is meant to be integrated like that -- no ordinary user will open up a key manager
[19:23] <jelmer> schierbec1: I think we should allow launching a key details dialog or something from seahorse
[19:24] <mw-home> jelmer: thanks for the information.
[19:24] <jelmer> but we shouldn't have a "trust this person" key, that's really outside of the scope of bzr-gtk
[19:25] <schierbec1> jelmer: i'm not sure -- if that's the way the user extends his trust network?
[19:26] <jelmer> schierbec1: signing keys should involve identity verification and the like
[19:27] <jelmer> schierbec1: also, seahorse already deals with this task, let's not reimplement that bit
[19:27] <jelmer> afaik the key information diaog from seahorse has buttons for trusting the key
[19:27] <schierbec1> jelmer: allright, but perhaps we can have a look at it in the future
[19:29] <schierbec1> jelmer: does it still throw exceptions at you?
[19:29] <schierbec1> i talked with a seahorse dev, he said the api didn't change
[19:29] <schierbec1> jelmer: btw, i've pushed to lp, you can check out the new headings
[19:30] <jelmer> schierbec1: yep, still errors
[19:30] <jelmer> Invalid key id:
[19:30] <schierbec1> can you print out the key?
[19:30] <jelmer> this is on your signed revisions
[19:31] <schierbec1> it should be of the format "openpgp:<key>"
[19:31] <jelmer> it works fine for my own signed revisions
[19:31] <jelmer> such as 14.1.1 (in bzr-gtk)
[19:33] <jelmer> schierbec1: The "Authenticity confirmed" bit is incorrect until we're checking the author email == key email
[19:33] <schierbec1> jelmer: yeah, this is just the ui bits, i'll add the comparison asap
[19:34] <schierbec1> jelmer: can you add a print in crypt.py so i can see what the key looks like?
[19:34] <jelmer> sure
[19:34] <jelmer> what/where?
[19:34] <schierbec1> just in Key.__init__()
[19:34] <schierbec1> print key
[19:35] <schierbec1> jelmer: it may also be that my key is not fetched from the server
[19:37] <jelmer> schierbec1: We should not rely on seahorse being able to fetch a key
[19:37] <jelmer> schierbec1: since you may be offline, for example
[19:37] <jelmer> schierbec1: I think I also have automatic key fetching turned off in gpg since it is slow
[19:38] <schierbec1> jelmer: i'm not completely sure what the protocol is, but the docs mention that a key may be "missing" at first
[19:38] <schierbec1> jelmer: but that may very well be the problem
[19:39] <schierbec1> jelmer: i'd like to try something: in __init__(), replace "discover(key)" with "discover(self.get_id())"
[19:39] <schierbec1> that's just to see if the api's changed
[19:42] <jelmer> schierbec1: that changes the error back to the list index out of range exception
[19:43] <jelmer> schierbec1: what does DiscoverKeys() do exactly?
[19:43] <jelmer> does that try to fetch the key from the web?
[19:45] <schierbec1> yup, or the local network
[19:45] <schierbec1> i'd like to see the value of "key" -- can you print it out?
[19:45] <jelmer> schierbec1: key is an empty string
[19:45] <schierbec1> it sounds like VerifyText returns something stupid
[19:45] <schierbec1> hmm
[19:46] <jelmer> schierbec1: seahorse also has an option to automatically discover keys as they are requested
[19:46] <schierbec1> what about cleartext in crypt.verify() ?
[19:46] <jelmer> schierbec1: I'd rather rely on that
[19:47] <jelmer> schierbec1: cleartext does indeed contain the testament
[19:48] <schierbec1> that's funny -- the "key" return value is just empty?!
[19:48] <jelmer> schierbec1: dbus.String(u'')
[19:50] <schierbec1> ?
[19:50] <jelmer> schierbec1: "print repr(key)" prints dbus.String(u'')
[19:51] <schierbec1> 3 seconds, on the phone
[19:56] <schierbec1> jelmer: sorry, my mom called
[19:56] <schierbec1> hehe, a bit hard to just hang up...
[19:57] <schierbec1> jelmer: but yeah, it's returning an empty string -- i'll just make a test for that and mark the key as invalid then
[19:58] <jelmer> schierbec1: s/invalid/unknown?
[19:58] <jelmer> since it could be trusted
[19:58] <jelmer> schierbec1: it's a bit odd though that it doesn't return anything at all, it should known the key id even if it doesn't have the key
[20:00] <schierbec1> jelmer: exactly, but i guess we'll just mark it as unsigned or what?
[20:00] <jelmer> schierbec1: unknown should be a separate thing imho
[20:02] <schierbec1> jelmer: okay, like "error verifying key"?
[20:02] <schierbec1> oh, the seahorse guy is responsive now, i'll ask him
[20:03] <jelmer> schierbec1: ah, cool
[20:03] <jelmer> schierbec1: it would be nice if seahorse could actually return the key id there
[20:04] <jelmer> schierbec1: and it would be nice if a command could be added to the DBus API to display the key information dialog for a particular key
[20:04] <schierbec1> yup
[20:09] <schierbec1> jelmer: could i get you to pastebin the crypttext of a revision that doesn't work?
[20:09] <schierbec1> in crypt.verify()
[20:11] <jelmer> http://pastebin.org/26731
[20:11] <schierbec1> yeah, that looks like it should
[20:12] <schierbec1> i'm talking with the seahorse guy, it seems that it's because the key is not in your keyring
[20:12] <jelmer> schierbec1: right, and it shouldn't have to be
[20:13] <jelmer> I mean, seahorse should be able to return the key idea
[20:13] <jelmer> and we could print something like "signature from unknown key YYYY"
[20:14] <schierbec1> jelmer: exactly
[20:14] <schierbec1> right now, i think we should just write "Authenticity cannot be verified -- Key not available"
[20:15] <jelmer> right, that makes sense
[20:20] <schierbec1> jelmer: okay, pushing a fix to lp
[20:21] <schierbec1> let's see if this works
[20:22] <jelmer> schierbec1: yep, works now - thanks
[20:22] <schierbec1> cool
[20:22] <jelmer> schierbec1: This should not be marked as Authentication error imho
[20:22] <schierbec1> i was just about to ask
[20:23] <schierbec1> what do you think? "Authenticity cannot be verified"?
[20:23] <schierbec1> s/verified/confirmed/
[20:24] <jelmer> yep, that sounds good
[20:25] <schierbec1> jelmer: ok, it's pushed
[20:25] <schierbec1> jelmer: just one last thing -- try replacing VerifyText with DecryptText
[20:26] <schierbec1> it could be an error in the VerifyText implementation
[20:26] <jelmer> "No data"
[20:27] <schierbec1> hmm, well, ok then
[20:27] <schierbec1> jelmer: i think i'll rewrite the descriptions
[20:28] <jelmer> schierbec1: we shouldn't be calling discover() imho
[20:28] <schierbec1> we're not anymore
[20:28] <jelmer> my bad, it's just the function that's still there
[20:28] <jelmer> sorry
[20:28] <schierbec1> "The revision has been signed by a person you trust" ?
[20:28] <schierbec1> s/The/This/ ?
[20:29] <jelmer> and which person, if possible :-)
[20:29] <schierbec1> or rather "... signed with a trusted key" ?
[20:29] <schierbec1> jelmer: yeah :)
[20:29] <jelmer> I'd prefer "signed with a trusted key "
[20:29] <schierbec1> okay
[20:30] <schierbec1> and then "This revision has been signed, but you do not trust the authenticity of the key."
[20:32] <jelmer> what about "This revision has been signed with an untrusted key" ?
[20:33] <schierbec1> jelmer: i think it's perhaps too close to the trusted version
[20:33] <schierbec1> just two letters apart
[20:33] <schierbec1> we should emphasize that it's not trusted, as a signature in itself means nothing
[20:35] <jelmer> we need more colored icons :-)
[20:35] <Kinnison> Is bzr currently unable to branch from launchpad?
[20:35] <Kinnison> I was trying to get the gedit plugin and bzr says it's not a branch
[20:36] <schierbec1> jelmer: always :)
[20:36] <schierbec1> jelmer: i'm working out a seahorse patch with the dev guy
[20:36] <jelmer> schierbec1: cool
[20:38]  * Kinnison hrms, also can't bzr pull from the bzr-svn branch
[20:38] <Kinnison> perhaps launchpad is moosed
[20:43] <jelmer> Kinnison: I think there was a regression in bzr.dev that breaks it with launchpad or something
[20:45] <Kinnison> jelmer: arse
[20:45] <Kinnison> oh well
[20:45] <Kinnison> no bzr-svn for me until that's fixed :-)
[20:46] <james_w> Kinnison: you should be able to pull over bzr+ssh://
[20:46] <schierbec1> jelmer: what about "This signature has been signed, but the authenticity of the signature cannot be trusted."?
[20:46] <Kinnison> james_w: from a branch I don't own?
[20:46] <james_w> Kinnison: yeah, you don't need write permission to pull
[20:46] <Kinnison> schierbec1: "...signature has been signed..." ?
[20:47] <Kinnison> james_w: I was more incredulous about having ssh access to branches I didn't own
[20:47]  * Kinnison didn't know that was allowed
[20:47] <Kinnison> I thought launchpad virtual-chrooted you
[20:47] <schierbec1> Kinnison: bzr-gtk ui bits for signed revisions
[20:47] <schierbec1> oops, s/signature/revision/
[20:47] <Kinnison> schierbec1: aah, suddenly it makes more sense :-)
[20:47] <schierbec1> hehe
[20:49] <schierbec1> jelmer: could i get you to check out a patch for seahorse?
[20:49] <schierbec1> svn://svn.gnome.org/svn/seahorse/trunk/
[20:49] <schierbec1> only if you have time
[20:50] <jelmer> schierbec1: sure
[20:52] <jelmer> schierbec1: or http://people.samba.org/bzr/jelmer/seahorse/jelmer :-)
[20:53] <schierbec1> :)
[20:53] <schierbec1> http://pastebin.com/d24eb0110
[20:53] <schierbec1> here's the patch
[20:56] <schierbec1> jelmer: "This revision has been signed, but the authenticity of the key has not been established"?
[20:56] <schierbec1> perhaps s/key/signature/?
[20:56] <schierbec1> just chime in, everybody!
[21:00] <jelmer> schierbec1: I'd rather just say that the key is unknown or untrusted
[21:02] <schierbec1> ok
[21:02] <schierbec1> jelmer: "... but the key is not trusted."?
[21:03] <jelmer> schierbec1: yep
[21:05] <schierbec1> jelmer: have you tried out the patch?
[21:05] <jelmer> working on it
[21:05] <schierbec1> cool
[21:05] <beuno> vila, I've got 2 hours separated for the upload plugin today, so I'll give you the feedback I owe you  :)
[21:06] <vila> beuno: great !
[21:09] <mwhudson> beuno: hi!
[21:09] <jelmer> schierbec1: yep, that patch fixes it
[21:11] <schierbec1> jelmer: awesome!
[21:12] <beuno> hey mwhudson!   welcome back  :)
[21:12] <ubotu> New bug: #210422 in bzr-gtk "gpg signer should be part of ui_factory" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210422
[21:16] <schierbec1> jelmer: well, now we just have to wait 6 months until the next stable is released! :)
[21:17] <jelmer> :-)
[21:17] <chell> hi
[21:18] <chell> hey
[21:18] <emgent> http://nopaste/p/aMZkktaSw
[21:18] <emgent> some idea?
[21:18] <emgent> bzr locked.
[21:18] <chell> emgent: nope sorry
[21:19] <chell> "locked 123 hours, 27 minutes ago" sounds a bit weird
[21:19] <jelmer> try bzr break-lock
[21:19] <emgent> jelmer: same error..
[21:20] <emgent> :|
[21:22] <beuno> emgent, try a few times more (sometimes LP locks it a few times)
[21:24] <emgent> beuno: to push or brack-lock ?
[21:24] <beuno> emgent, break lock
[21:25] <beuno> emgent: bzr break-lock<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:25] <beuno> 3 or 4 times should do it  :)
[21:25] <emgent> yes i know
[21:25] <emgent> but same problem
[21:25] <emgent> ok :)
[21:25] <beuno> emgent, still nothing?
[21:27] <emgent> ok now work :)
[21:27] <beuno> emgent, :)
[21:28] <emgent> thanks
[21:28]  * beuno wonders when LP will fix that bug
[21:30] <schierbec1> jelmer: okay, now we just need to figure out what to do if seahorse isn't installed
[21:35] <jelmer> schierbec1: hide the signature tab :-)
[21:41] <schierbec1> jelmer: yeah, but we should add a check for seahorse :)
[21:42] <schierbec1> the branch is in the team repo, so you can just commit changes if you wish to
[21:51] <schierbec1> jelmer: what do you think about left-aligning the table "keys"?
[21:51] <schierbec1> i.e. the bold labels
[22:07] <mdke> how can I make changes to the details of my "parent" or "submit" branch?
[22:07] <beuno> mdke, what kind of changes?
[22:08] <mdke> beuno: well, remove them or specify another branch
[22:08] <beuno> mdke, just use bzr push/pull/merge new_location --remember
[22:08] <mdke> thanks
[22:09]  * jdong investigates bzr mailing list... did he break bzrtools?
[22:09] <beuno> :)
[22:10] <jdong> it worksforme....
[22:11] <beuno> jdong, he probably has pycentral b0rked
[22:11] <jdong> beuno: also see bug 210452 though
[22:11] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 210452 in bzrtools "error updating bzrtools" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210452
[22:12] <jdong> it seems like a different reporter
[22:12] <jdong> perhaps it only happens on an update?
[22:12] <james_w> jdong: there's a load of bugs filed with this error
[22:12] <james_w> on different packages
[22:12] <james_w> I can't remember the fix offhand, I think it might have been rebuilds, but that doesn't make sense here
[22:13] <james_w> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bzr-svn/+bug/197840 is one
[22:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 197840 in bzr-svn "bzr-svn fails to install (Ubuntu Hardy, with ppa bzr)" [Undecided,Fix released]
[22:13] <james_w> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-central/+bug/197692
[22:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 197692 in python-central "package ubuntu-desktop 1.94 failed to install/upgrade: problemas de dependencias - se deja sin configurar" [Undecided,Fix released]
[22:13] <james_w> that's the one
[22:14] <jdong> odd
[22:27] <james_w> jdong: yeah
[22:28] <james_w> jdong: passing it on to python-central may be the right thing to do, I don't know
[22:28] <james_w> I don't really know what bzrtools might have done to provoke this
[22:28] <james_w> although, hang on, bzrtools was a merge, so maybe something was dropped
[22:29] <james_w> or maybe not dropped, but needs to be improved.
[22:59] <xma> 'lo
[23:00] <xma> why does bb crash so often ?
[23:01] <lifeless> does it ?
[23:04] <xma> :)
[23:04] <xma> each time I want to read patch entries => no luck (500 internal error)
[23:10] <lifeless> xma: whats the last couple of lines of the traceback?
[23:11] <xma> each time I have seen it, it was a SQL query
[23:11] <poolie> hello xma
[23:11] <lifeless> let abentley know, probably via the list
[23:11] <poolie> i think it crashes pretty often
[23:11] <xma> poolie: hello
[23:12] <poolie> all things considered
[23:12] <poolie> i still love it deeply
[23:12] <xma> yes it is very valuable
[23:12] <xma> (when it works :))
[23:12] <abentley> It crashes so often mainly because I don't know why it crashes so often :-)
[23:12] <xma> I learnt many python related things when reading people's patches
[23:13] <xma> abentley: hey aaron
[23:13] <xma> 00:04 <lifeless> let abentley know, probably via the list
[23:13] <xma> ;)
[23:13] <xma> so it is down now: OperationalError database is locked
[23:14] <xma> gotta go now
[23:14] <xma> see ya all
[23:18] <poolie> hello abentley
[23:19] <abentley> poolie: hi
[23:19] <poolie> there was a recent bug report of a failure in treetransform
[23:19] <poolie> if you get a sec could you comment on it, if you have not already?
[23:19] <abentley> Okay
[23:19] <poolie> it should still be in the recent list
[23:35] <igc> morning all


[12:26] <Sky-Cop> Hi All
[12:26] <Sky-Cop> :)
[12:43] <lamont> hrm... drive-by trouting
[12:50] <Luciph3r> reDFog
[02:18] <Luciph3r> Uptime	86 days 10 hours 42 minutes
[02:32] <Luciph3r> notte nottina
[09:47] <shawarma> I'm curious. I just went to register my GPG key. It has three identies: My primary e-mail, and old secondary one that luckily still works and my work e-mail. When I entered the fingerprint it said it had mailed by secondary and my work e-mail and my GPG key did not show up as confirmed until I followed the link that was sent to me.. What would have happened if I had had only the one e-mail?
[09:49] <shawarma> The other obvious question: why doesn't it send to my primary e-mail?
[09:54] <shawarma> BTW I think Launchpad seems hella cool!
[09:54] <shawarma> :-)
[10:01] <JanC> shawarma : just tried the same and it sends mail to every address except those two that I use for Ubuntu...   :-/
[10:01] <JanC> looks like a bug...
[10:04] <salgado> shawarma, when you follow the link sent to any of your email addresses your key should be added to you. if it wasn't added, please report a bug
[10:07] <salgado> we think that's a good idea to register the emails of all your non-revoked UIDs when you tell launchpad what's your gpg key, so these emails we sent to you are, in fact, to register all email addresses you have as UIDs in your key
[10:10] <JanC> most people probably want to keep their email addresses from work or from other organisations they work for out of launchpad...
[10:10] <salgado> shawarma, if you think that's not a good idea (you just want to add your gpg key, not your email addresses), please file a bug on it too
[10:13] <JanC> for the moment people can remove the newly-added e-mail address after approving
[10:13] <JanC> (that's what I did)
[10:13] <shawarma> salgado: It WAS added. That's not the problem. There is no problem actually, since I had an extra e-mail registered in the key, but had I not had that, where would it have sent the e-mails?
[10:19] <salgado> shawarma, right now if you don't have an extra email registered in the key you won't be able to add your key. that's a known problem and we're working on it, as you can see here: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/1072
[10:19] <shawarma> Oh, ok!
[10:21] <JanC> erm, "Edit Signed CoCs" should tell the people that submitting deactivates checked items...   :)
[10:22] <shawarma> salgado: Well, you know the issue then.. i won't bother you any more. keep up the good work! Launchpad seems like a really cool system!
[10:25] <salgado> shawarma, you're not bothering me at all. it's always better to hear about a problem multiple times than never know about it.
[10:26] <shawarma> salgado: That's true. Thanks for your time.
[10:27] <salgado> shawarma, no prob. and thanks for giving us feedback. :)
[11:40] <shawarma> salgado: What's the Launchpad coded in? Python, I suppose?
[11:40] <salgado> shawarma, yes, it's python
[11:40] <shawarma> salgado: I thought as much. Is the code available somewhere?
[11:40] <shawarma> salgado: I'm not enough of a pythonista to work on the launchpad, but I'd like to see it and learn from it.
[11:41] <JanC> shawarma : it's not open source (at least at the moment)
[11:42] <shawarma> Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.
[11:42] <shawarma> Really?
[11:42] <shawarma> that's just weird.
[11:42] <shawarma> How come?
[11:43] <JanC> don't know
[11:43] <salgado> shawarma, the code is not yet available.
[11:43] <JanC> maybe they first want to have stable release ?
[11:43] <shawarma> salgado: But it will be?
[11:44] <shawarma> salgado: Who develops it? Canonical? Are you a canonical employee?
[11:46] <salgado> yes, it's developed by canonical developers and I'm one of them.


[05:23] <mapps> morning
[05:55] <knightwise> Good morning mapps
[08:15] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[08:16] <crogers> hello brobostigon
[08:17] <brobostigon> hi crogers
[08:18] <davmor2> Morning all
[08:19] <crogers> goodmorning davmor2
[08:32] <crogers> I have an idea.
[08:33] <crogers> It would cure the problem of hotkey clashes between the window manager and the applications.
[08:36] <crogers> All window manager hotkeys (moving windows, closing windows, etc.) always use the <Super> key.
[08:37] <crogers> And all applications should never use the <Super> key.
[08:37] <crogers> Most don't anyway.
[08:37] <crogers> The only exceptions should be for copy/paste actions.
[08:38] <crogers> Though, those are application specific anyway.
[08:39] <crogers> The only problem I can think of with this, is that everyone is used to switching windes with Alt+Tab
[08:40] <davmor2> crogers: do you use Ubuntu most of the keyboard actions revolve around the super key
[08:40] <crogers> Yes, I do.
[08:40] <crogers> And the fisrt thing I always do is switch the Alt key with the Super key.
[08:41] <crogers> Ubuntu is my only OS. I left Windows behind nearly 5 years ago.
[08:41] <crogers> I'm a designer, so I use the GUI heavily.
[08:42] <BigRedS> I don't think I generally have issues with shortcuts clashing between window manager and application, but maybe I've just got used to what doesn't work...
[08:42] <davmor2> crogers: I very rarely have any clashes
[08:43] <crogers> I use complex applications.
[08:43] <crogers> Such as Blender 3D
[08:43] <davmor2> only time I really have issues is when I think I'm on one screen when I'm actually on the other and a key combination that moves to a different tab in one app closes the app in another :D
[08:43] <crogers> alt+click drag is a big problem.
[08:44] <crogers> should be super+click-drag to move a window.
[08:44] <BigRedS> ah yeah; ctrl-w not always just deleting the previous word keeps getting me in firefox and pidgin
[08:45] <davmor2> crogers: alt click is an Operating System standard
[08:45] <crogers> Also, application devs should not have to dance around wm hotkeys.
[08:45] <crogers> davmor2 I know. It's not a good standard.
[08:45] <davmor2> crogers: it works on Ubuntu mac and windows
[08:46] <BigRedS> is it objectively bad, or is there just something you'd rather it did?
[08:46] <crogers> Is it our mission to emmulate Mac and Windows crappy standards? :)
[08:46] <crogers> wm actions should always use the super key.
[08:46] <crogers> To prevent clashes with applications.
[08:47] <BigRedS> haha, let's not emulate Wndows and instead use the Windows key? :)
[08:47] <davmor2> crogers: no it is our job to make computing as easy as possible so people moving from other operating systems can still use they Computing Standard shortcuts
[08:47] <crogers> It's the <Super> key, not the Windows key.
[08:47] <davmor2> crogers: feel free to change it
[08:48] <BigRedS> being different from the established norms just to be different is a way to annoy people. Making things easier always has to take into account what people expect to happen; good UIs are not surprising
[08:48] <davmor2> crogers: no it has a windows emblem on it it is most definitely the windows key
[08:48] <BigRedS> mine definitely has a windows logo on it
[08:48] <crogers> BigRedS, It's not "just to be different"
[08:49] <crogers> BigRedS, so? Macs have an Apple logo on it.
[08:49] <davmor2> crogers: so there are 20 million plus users, I believe you are the first person I've heard complain about it
[08:49] <BigRedS> so why not emulate mac and windows' 'crappy' standards?
[08:49] <crogers> Mine has a Tux on it.
[08:50] <crogers> davmor2, from a developer standpoint it makes sense too, not just user.
[08:50] <crogers> And from distro to distro, they change.
[08:51] <BigRedS> the defaults are normally baked into the WM, not the distro. Ubuntu's got a unique WM, but any Gnome3 install should use the same shortcuts, for example
[08:51] <crogers> So application devs are forced to dance around various distro hotkey setups.
[08:51] <crogers> Well, wm setups.
[08:52] <BigRedS> I mean, I get that it'd be great if everyone just settled on your standard to use the windows key for all window manager shortcuts and leave ctrl, alt etc. for programs. But it'll be so annoying a transition that I'd probably rail against it if it were to happen on my PC :)
[08:52] <davmor2> crogers: you know I'll let you in on a secret most windows users don't know there are keyboard shortcuts, the ones that do are developers, and guess what they are the ones that would start complaining if we started messing with the computing standard shortcuts
[08:53] <crogers> It would take a day to get used to it. :)
[08:53] <BigRedS> because I use a bunch of keyboard shortcuts that largely havent changed since I started using it, and none of them are particularly problematic to me
[08:53] <BigRedS> haha, no. I've tried changing things around before and I don't take well to it :)
[08:53] <crogers> davmor2, if Windows users don't know there are shortcut keys, then there's no issue in "Transition" is there?
[08:54] <davmor2> crogers: it's the developer who have year of memory muscle for particular key combinations that would complain
[08:54] <crogers> Bet I have more. :)
[08:55] <crogers> I'm a full time designer.
[08:55] <davmor2> crogers: by the way the wonderful thing about Linux is you can change things feel free to remap the alt+click to super+click
[08:55] <crogers> Think of how many hotkeys GIMP and Inkscape has.
[08:56] <crogers> Of course, both those programs combined don't have nearly as many hotkeys as Blendre 3D
[08:56] <crogers> I do.
[08:56] <davmor2> crogers: then what is the issue
[08:56] <crogers> Every single time I install.
[08:56] <crogers> Shouldn't have to. And I shouldn't have to post updates on how to use gconf editor to remap it every. single. time.
[08:57] <BigRedS> how many times does that happen?
[08:57] <crogers> And devs should not have to dance around wm hotkeys.
[08:58] <BigRedS> But, yeah, it really ought to be easily programmable. I don't know if it is - I used to have a deb package that depended on the software I liked using and made all the post-install changes I wanted made to config files, but it just edited text files
[08:58] <BigRedS> I don't know what's involved in these brave new worlds, I'm using an xml-configured window manager these days...
[08:58] <crogers> most tweak tools have it now.
[08:58] <crogers> which shows you that it is actually a problem for amny users.
[08:58] <crogers> *many
[08:59] <BigRedS> where 'it' is a programmatic means of fiddling with shortcuts?
[08:59] <crogers> But you have to know to install tweak tools.
[08:59] <davmor2> crogers: our point is that 99% of the devs don't we setup Ubuntu for the 99% not the 1% that need it different
[08:59] <crogers> where "it" is the specific problem I'm talking about here.
[09:01] <crogers> Can you really use alt-drag to move a window in Windows?
[09:02] <crogers> Or Macos?
[09:02] <crogers> The first time I saw taht was on a Linux machine.
[09:03] <crogers> And it's always gotten in my way. You're right though, 99% of Ubuntu users are not professional graphic designers.
[09:04] <BigRedS> there's a reasonable argument to be made that you could compile a list of all the keyboard shortcuts on a modern PC and come up with some sort of sane and coherent keyboard mapping for them that's perhaps more intuitive and definitely more consistent and likely more learnable
[09:04] <BigRedS> which I suspect isn't far off what you're advocating
[09:04] <crogers> BigRedS, that's not my argument though. lol
[09:05] <crogers> It's much simpler.
[09:05] <BigRedS> ah, you just want something *differently* incoherent? :)
[09:05] <crogers> BigRedS, maybe I'm not explaining well enough? :)
[09:05] <crogers> Let me try again...
[09:05] <crogers> Say your an application dev.
[09:05] <knightwise> morning everyon e
[09:06] <BigRedS> either way, I think the downside is the same - you can make the case that this new way is objectively better and easier to learn and easy to develop for, but you can't really get around the fact that it's quite different to everyone's expectations, and that these expectations generally work for nearly everybody
[09:06] <crogers> according to davmor2 "everyone" doesn't even use hotkeys coming to linux.
[09:07] <BigRedS> I think most people generally use the mouse, yeah
[09:07] <crogers> In 10+ years of using Linux, I never once felt the need to hotkey-grab my windows either. :)
[09:07] <BigRedS> as in alt+click to drag them?
[09:07] <crogers> So there's an argument that can be made that this actually will not change very much at all.
[09:07] <crogers> BigRedS, yup.
[09:07] <BigRedS> well, it depends whether you or I are representative of users
[09:08] <crogers> But think of it from an application dev's point of view.
[09:08] <BigRedS> it's very easy to assume that whatever it is that I do must be the norm and the other ways of doing things are just superfluous and unneeded. You can see this assumption in lots of UXy bugreports
[09:08] <crogers> Rather than compiling a list of all the hotkeys across all wms, you simply refrain from using the super Key.
[09:08] <BigRedS> Oh, I don't consider developers. I'm a sysadmin.
[09:08] <crogers> That's it.
[09:09] <BigRedS> yeah, and I'm not arguing that that's not a fine standard
[09:09] <crogers> It's that simple. You can map any hotkeys you want as long as you don't use the Super key as part of the combo.
[09:09] <BigRedS> it's just it's also a surprising one, and I would find the surprise more annoying than I currently find the inconsistency
[09:09] <crogers> Okay, cool. Just didn't know if I was explaining well enugh.
[09:10] <BigRedS> ah yeah, I just assumed that you saw a coherent and thought through complete set of shortcuts as an even better standard :)
[09:10] <crogers> Oh gads, no. :)
[09:10] <crogers> That would be aweful. :)
[09:10] <crogers> It's already the convention for most things.
[09:10] <BigRedS> haha
[09:11] <crogers> It's just not an official convention.
[09:11] <crogers> And it's most annoying presently in Unity/gnome/kde/etc
[09:12] <crogers> Come to think of it, it's not a problem in Windows.
[09:12] <crogers> I'd have noticed.
[09:13] <crogers> I think the worst shock would be that alt-tab would become <Super>-tab.
[09:13] <BigRedS> yeah, that was the point of the key, wasn't it?
[09:13] <crogers> Yep. :)
[09:13] <BigRedS> to give Windows a key that didn't infringe on anyone else's stuff. But all these bloody hippies wanted nothing to do with the Windows key until someone thought up a new name for it
[09:13] <crogers> Hahaha
[09:14] <crogers> Did Apple copy it, or did Microsoft?
[09:14] <crogers> There's another bit of trivia. :)
[09:14] <BigRedS> copy what? the command key, or whichever apple key is the rough analogue?

[09:15] <crogers> I think it's an apple logo on Mac keyboards.
[09:15] <crogers> command is equiv to ctrl
[09:15] <crogers> or is it alt...
[09:16] <BigRedS> I think Apples had that key before they got delete...
[09:16] <crogers> Right, but I think it is the <Super> key still
[09:17] <crogers> Apple uses say "Apple"-C if it's <Super>-C
[09:17] <crogers> So really, it's the Apple key, rebranded to the WIndows key.
[09:17] <crogers> Which isn't better, but well, there it is. :)
[09:18] <crogers> Like I said, mine has a tux on it. :)
[09:18] <crogers> Though I'd rather have an Ubuntu logo, tbh
[09:19] <crogers> It also highlights the importance of calling it the <Super> key. It's branding-neutral.
[09:22] <crogers> Also, it appears that Alt+Drag is a compiz convention.
[09:22] <crogers> Which explains why the first time I saw it was on Linux.
[09:22] <crogers> Compiz was one of the reasons I switched to Linux. :)
[09:23] <crogers> Oh, the customisation power! *drools*
[09:24] <crogers> Used to love to show people on their macbooks the enviable sh*t you could do with compiz, and a weekend of messing around. :)
[09:24] <popey> The Windows key has license implications along with it
[09:25] <crogers> popey, that would not surprise me at all. lol
[09:25] <crogers> Which is why we use the universal <Super> key.
[09:25] <crogers> Platform agnostic, isn't it?
[09:27] <crogers> My hope is that when laptops start rolling out officially with Ubuntu and an ubuntu logo on the super key, they still call it the Super key, and not the Ubuntu key. :)
[09:28] <crogers> That way it can be distro agnostic too.
[09:30] <popey> That's not why we use the term <Super>
[09:30] <popey> It's more that free software types have an aversion to Microsoft branded or originated things
[09:31] <popey> See also: Mono, PowerShell, VS Code.
[09:32] <davmor2> code wise it is actually called the meta key :D
[09:32] <crogers> That ma be the reason, but a better reason is that there is no agreement on what the button was called in the first place.
[09:33] <crogers> davmor2, I think that's a different key, actually.... :)
[09:34] <crogers> Or at least a different ascii value.
[09:35] <crogers> Yes, the Meta key is now AltGr
[09:35] <popey> well, it was originally called Super
[09:35] <popey> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet1.jpeg
[09:35] <popey> many years before Windows existed
[09:35] <popey> See also: Hyper key
[09:35] <crogers> Yep.
[09:36] <crogers> Here's the askubuntu thread: http://askubuntu.com/questions/19558/what-are-the-meta-super-and-hyper-keys
[09:36] <popey> free software people call it super, windows people call it windows
[09:36] <crogers> So it was Super first. :)
[09:37] <crogers> MS rebranded it.
[09:39] <crogers> Oh man, I'm glad some of these keys are gone. lol
[09:39] <crogers> Like the thumbs-up and thumbs down keys. lol
[09:40] <crogers> Or are those what became arrow keys?
[09:52] <Gargoyle> Google foo is failing at the moment. Is there a decent guide to migrating from unity to gnome, preferably for 16.04?
[09:52] <crogers> Gargoyle, what do you mean by migrating?
[09:52] <crogers> Like just installing gnome wm?
[09:54] <crogers> I usually just open a terminal and type:  sudo apt-get install gnome-shell
[09:55] <crogers> then you can just choose your wm at your login screen.
[09:56] <crogers> to do that, click the ubuntu icon in the login box, and choose the little foot icon for gnome
[09:56] <popey> there is a task for it, like "sudo apt install ubuntu-gnome-desktop^"
[09:56] <popey> (note the caret)
[09:57] <crogers> popey, does that do something different than just install gnome-shell?
[09:58] <popey> yes
[09:58] <popey> it installs what you'd get if you installed ubuntu gnome flavour
[09:58] <popey> apps n'all
[09:58] <crogers> Ah, yea, that would be horrible. :)
[09:58] <crogers> Well, for me.
[09:59] <popey> it doesn't pull in much more than just doing the shell
[09:59] <crogers> If you just want to switch window managers and leave everything else alone, I'd just go for gnome-shell
[09:59] <crogers> In my case, it would probably break *something*.
[10:02] <crogers> I wonder is MS gets a kickback from every keyboard imprinted with their logo.
[10:03] <crogers> For the SUper key.
[10:03] <davmor2> crogers: of course they do it is a windows logo
[10:03] <crogers> Ew...
[10:06] <crogers> I guess that's somewhat better than buying a whole keyboard from MS though. :)
[10:06] <crogers> SHows how hard it is not to give MS some money.
[10:07] <davmor2> crogers: I do often they do good hardware, me looks over at his btle folding keyboard
[10:08] <crogers> Yea, it's mainly that funding them funds thair nasty patent lawsuit threats against Linux and Open Source software.
[10:08] <popey> crogers: if you ship hardware which contains a windows key, the terms of the windows license prevent you allowing that button to do anything other than launch the start button.
[10:08] <popey> microsoft have send the lawyers after very big names who did this
[10:08] <dafty2> Oy, delayed flight at Gatwick
[10:09] <foobarry> thats insane
[10:09] <foobarry> is it true?
[10:10] <crogers> Yes, more reason to try to avoid funding MS. :)
[10:10] <dafty2> I missed something fun...
[10:11] <popey> foobarry: yes
[10:12] <foobarry> https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/773250721659486208/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
[10:12] <foobarry> lolz
[10:12] <BigRedS> a discussion about the windows key and the non-standardisation of keyboard shortcuts
[10:12] <crogers> dafty2,  quick catchup from this morning: Topics: using the Super key to separate wm actions from application hotkeys so there are never any clashes, the Super key was actually the Super key before MS rebranded it the Windows key. Apparently MS gets a kickback for each keyboard imprinted with a Windows logo on that key.
[10:13] <crogers> And that's about it. :)
[10:13] <dafty2> I always call it Super for platform agnosticism! Thanks crogers
[10:14] <Gargoyle> popey, so would that leave me the same system config stuff (are they part of gnome or the unity shell)?
[10:14] <crogers> dafty2,  Hah! That's exactly what I said.
[10:14] <Gargoyle> There seems to me a serious lack of any kind of config options.
[10:14] <dafty2> I can't for the life of me connect to freenode from my digital ocean VPS
[10:14] <crogers> sudo apt-get install gnome-tweak-tool
[10:15] <Gargoyle> done that
[10:15] <crogers> SHould be about the same, just no duplicate or redundant apps installed.
[10:15] <Gargoyle> Well, the unity one, at the moment.
[10:15] <crogers> nah, differnt one for gnome
[10:15] <Gargoyle> OK. I'll have a play.
[10:15] <crogers> Have fun. :)
[10:15] <Gargoyle> So much easier when you just had to edit x.conf! :P
[10:16] <crogers> nnnghh. lol
[10:16] <dafty2> I was only just helping someone edit xorg.conf the other day, can't wait for that to die
[10:16] <dafty2> Different topic I know,but close ;)
[10:17] <crogers> dafty2, agreed hehehe
[10:18] <crogers> dafty2,  Oh, the fun bit of the previous conversation was actually spawned by a side-note that the Meta key is not actually the Super key.
[10:19] <crogers> http://askubuntu.com/questions/19558/what-are-the-meta-super-and-hyper-keys
[10:19] <dafty2> Indeed it isn't! Think they were on sun machines though, meta
[10:19] <crogers> The chosen answer is a great bit of info-porn with CS history and images. :)
[10:20] <dafty2> Ok I'm only on airport free wi-fi so I best scoot, not making much progress here.
[10:20] <dafty2> Delayed from 11am to 2pm :(
[10:20] <crogers> Yikes! Cache a copy of Linux voice, fast!
[10:21] <dafty2> I have a nice book :) can't risk battery!
[10:21] <crogers> Ah, no outlets at the airport?
[10:21] <crogers> No smartphone?
[10:22] <crogers> No Kobo e-reader?
[10:22] <dafty2> I'm typing from one yep
[10:22] <crogers> (which supports DRM free epub books)
[10:22] <dafty2> I like the break from screen time :) makes it a real holiday
[10:22] <crogers> NooooO!
[10:22] <crogers> You're doing it WRONG! Must use all time to make progress on stuff!
[10:22] <crogers> ANd drink buckets of coffee.
[10:23]  * crogers envies people who can relax on holliday. (Enjoy!) :)
[10:23] <crogers> If you get bored later, check these out: https://www.linuxvoice.com/creative-commons-issues/
[10:24] <crogers> Linux Voice Magazine releases all their older issues under Creative Commons License.
[10:24] <crogers> Which is one reason I subscribe to their paper issue, to help fund them. :)
[10:25] <crogers> Plus, paper magazines are quite a novelty for me. Great battery life too!
[10:27] <Gargoyle> Back on my broadband.
[10:27] <crogers> On gnome?
[10:28] <crogers> er, in, rather?
[10:28] <Gargoyle> Nahh. Was on 4G. Openreach have been doing more tests.
[10:29] <Gargoyle> Finally got an engineer with some common sense who has managed to compile some solid info.
[10:29] <crogers> First thing I usually do is switch the theme to gnome's default (it will be set to unity's default still.
[10:29] <crogers> But that's just to fix the window corners.
[10:30] <crogers> Gargoyle, do you use many gnome extensions?
[10:30] <Gargoyle> Last 600m of cable is aluminium. This causes the drop from 40 meg down to < 10
[10:30] <Gargoyle> crogers, Only on linux desktop day 3
[10:30] <crogers> eeep!
[10:30] <crogers> suckage
[10:30] <crogers> Ah. :)
[10:30] <BigRedS> I'm about to try to use sudo to give someone nearly-but-not-quite root. Is there anything good I ought to read first?
[10:31] <popey> Their employment contract? :)
[10:31] <BigRedS> I'm good with the syntax and (hopefull) most of the concepts, but surely someone's tried to let a user use find but not -exec and suchlike - I'm after elegant solutions to that sort of thing
[10:31] <BigRedS> haha
[10:32] <BigRedS> helpfully this is incompetence and not malice that I'm trying to guard against, but it's not formal enough for that :(
[10:32] <popey> we used to break out of stuff like more/less etc which was fun
[10:32] <popey> (when I worked at a big diy store where they used AIX)
[10:32] <popey> we'd pass notes around about "hey, if you need root, john knows"
[10:33] <popey> I also worked somewhere where they bodged the systems such that you could get a root like account, but it logged _everything_
[10:33] <popey> so if you ran top, their logs would be full of nonsense
[10:34] <BigRedS> hahaha
[10:34] <BigRedS> yeah, stop putting me off this
[10:34] <BigRedS> :)
[10:36] <crogers> Think you can add user access to file folders.
[10:36] <crogers> Then they should be able to perform find tasks... but then execution... hmm
[10:36] <crogers> Yea, nevermind. Not sure. :)
[10:36] <popey> we also had a little c program which could elevate privs
[10:37] <popey> that was handy
[10:37] <popey> was called "utility" or something, and we'd use it in scripts, they never noticed
[10:37] <crogers> Hehehe
[10:39] <crogers> Gargoyle, once you get your bearings, I have some extensions that will make you whine about having to use other wm. :)
[10:39] <foobarry> imagine wroking somewhere without root
[10:39] <foobarry> that would be sad days
[10:40] <BigRedS> crogers: ACLs? Yeah, can't quite be bothered to implement that
[10:40] <popey> foobarry: yeah, I had that!
[10:40] <crogers> Not only that, but all you have to do to install them is visit extensions.gnome.org in Firefox, and flip a switch on the extensions you want.
[10:40] <popey> had to fill in forms to get root, and they'd allow it per-account for a fixed period
[10:40] <foobarry> screw that
[10:40] <foobarry> i mean, i do that to the users
[10:40] <popey> Indeed, I did, 5 years ago :)
[10:41] <Gargoyle> crogers, cool.
[10:41] <Gargoyle> I'll be looking for a good password manager, and sftp client.
[10:42] <crogers> Extensions + Mac-style expo when you hit the Super key make Gnome hard to replace for my purposes.
[10:42] <crogers> Well, old mak/compiz style.
[10:42] <crogers> *mac
[10:43] <Gargoyle> Different from the default meta-w and meta-shift-w ones?
[10:43] <crogers> Try it. :)
[10:44] <crogers> Open some programs, then just hit the Super key.
[10:44] <crogers> It shrinks them all for you so you can see what you're doing.
[10:44] <foobarry> works for me on elementary
[10:44] <popey> like super+w on unity?
[10:44] <crogers> I typically have 7 different programs open, with multiple instances.
[10:44] <foobarry> super-S super-A etc
[10:45] <Gargoyle> popey, Ahh, so super-w is a unity thing, not a gnome thing?
[10:45] <popey> dunno, don't use gnome
[10:46] <BigRedS> it's new-window in firefox :)
[10:46] <popey> wat
[10:47] <popey> surely that's ctrl+n?
[10:47] <BigRedS> yeah, it's that too
[10:47] <foobarry> not sure what this conversation is actually about
[10:48] <foobarry> keyboard shortcuts do different things in different DEs
[10:48] <BigRedS> I was only pointing that out because of crogers thing earlier about application devs just not-using the windows key for shortcuts
[10:48] <crogers> Which is another reason to have the aforementioned convention.
[10:48] <BigRedS> and I found it amusing that firefox used it, but for something for which there's already a well-established norm
[10:49] <crogers> BigRedS, Yea, I find that there are a ton of little annoying things, which you tend to forget about, or forget around.
[10:50] <crogers> Yes, Super w in Unity does roughly the same thing as just the super key in gnome.
[10:50] <crogers> Except without the desktops.
[10:50] <crogers> which is a really slick feature.
[10:51] <crogers> Also, Unity is about half as fast gnome shell is.
[10:51] <crogers> I'm not sure why though.
[10:51] <foobarry> the dash, or just moving windows aroudn?
[10:52] <crogers> Unity slows everything down. I mean program launches, switching windows, and god help you if you try and use the super key on a netbook in Unity. lol
[10:53] <crogers> Gnome is slow there too, but usable.
[10:54] <foobarry> choose another DE?
[10:54] <BigRedS> hah, I stuck Unity on my old mac mini the other day. That was abortive :) Modern linux desktops are definitely made for modern computers
[10:54] <foobarry> there are really fast ones that have good bling and workflow
[10:54] <crogers> Yea, actually Ubuntu Studio was perfect I found.
[10:55] <foobarry> what did that run?
[10:55] <Gargoyle> popey, what's the significance of adding the caret to "apt-get install ubuntu-gnome-desktop"?
[10:55] <popey> Gargoyle: installs the task
[10:55] <crogers> Partly due to the XFCE wm, and partly due to the low-latency complied core.
[10:56] <crogers> The only problem is when you come back from suspend, and log in, your mouse cursor vanishes.
[10:56] <foobarry> crogers: maybe investigate ubuntu MATE, elementary, and even solus project (if you don't mind being non ubuntu)
[10:56] <foobarry> thats a known bug in intel driver
[10:56] <foobarry> fixed now on my laptop
[10:56] <BigRedS> he did say Ubuntu Studio was "perfect", though, maybe no need to try anything else :)
[10:56] <crogers> have done, foobarry
[10:57] <crogers> Ubuntu Studio was the best compromise.
[10:57] <crogers> Never tried Solus though.
[10:57] <crogers> Mainly time limitations, but I like having a distro based on lts releases of ubuntu.
[10:58] <crogers> And it's primarily the wm that slows the system down.
[10:58] <crogers> Or at least, that's been my experience.
[11:00] <crogers> Gnome is my fav wm currently, if I have the hardware to back it up.
[11:00] <crogers> clipboard manager, todo.txt, and drop-down terminal are just awesome.
[11:01] <crogers> I know there are variations for other wms
[11:01] <crogers> but none heve the slick integration that these have with gnome.
[11:01] <foobarry> gnoem were promising some good apps, are they out yet?
[11:01] <crogers> Or at least none of the ones I'v tried anyway. :)
[11:01] <foobarry> nice photos app and others
[11:01] <crogers> foobarry, more specifically?
[11:01] <foobarry> california calendar too
[11:02] <crogers> Not sure. My ver of gnome may be outdated now.
[11:02] <foobarry> california doesn't look much better than maya on elementary actually
[11:03] <popey> just switched to gnome shell to try it out, annoyed already :)
[11:03] <crogers> Well, you still cant double-click on a calendar entry to open calendar app in 3.18.5
[11:03] <davmor2> popey: haha that didn't take long
[11:03] <crogers> So that kinda sucks. :)
[11:03] <BigRedS> crogers: is that drop-down terminal a gnome thing or just something they've adopted?
[11:04] <crogers> Well, it's like guake.
[11:04] <crogers> but slicker.
[11:04] <crogers> It may be based on guake. I haven't a cluse. :)
[11:04] <crogers> *clue
[11:04] <BigRedS> yeah, I just remember guake having odd gnome3 theme bugs last time I was using modern desktops
[11:04] <BigRedS> haha
[11:04]  * davmor2 sticks with byobu
[11:05] <crogers> I just like having a no-border drop-down.
[11:05] <crogers> it just looks amasing #hipster
[11:05] <foobarry> https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Photos
[11:05] <BigRedS> ahh, I have too many tabs for that
[11:05] <popey> heh
[11:05] <foobarry> does photos app exist?
[11:05] <popey> yes
[11:05] <popey> one of the default apps
[11:05] <BigRedS> oh! I thought byobu was just a .screenrc, but it looks like it might actually do some stuff I find useful
[11:06] <davmor2> foobarry: still EOG under the shell just rebranded :)
[11:07] <foobarry> so where's all these awesome new apps they were released
[11:07] <foobarry> releasing
[11:08] <crogers> byobu is cool, but I find it more useful in-general to right-click in nautilus and choose "open terminal here"
[11:08] <crogers> Since I use terminal mainly to run graphical scripts.
[11:08] <crogers> And install stuff.
[11:09] <crogers> If you saw my filesystem, you'd understand why. :)
[11:09] <foobarry> i like synapse
[11:09] <BigRedS> yeah, I do all my work in a terminal, and the notifications-to-desktop sounds useful
[11:10] <foobarry> elementary terminal does that too
[11:10] <BigRedS> but I ssh elsewhere to run tmux *there* and hop on to other things, so it's probably too convoluted to be reliable. And do I really need to know when that rsync finishes?
[11:10] <foobarry> when your apt-get dist-upgrade finishes in another window you get notified
[11:10] <foobarry> a time saver
[11:10] <crogers> Clipboardmanager is great too. keeps a rolling history of what you've copied, so you can retrieve it later, or with hotkeys.
[11:11] <crogers> Also has a privacy mode switch built in.
[11:12] <crogers> And you can erase entries by clicking the x next to them.
[11:12] <foobarry> where is clipboardmanager ? in the repos?
[11:12] <crogers> extensions.gnome.org
[11:12] <BigRedS> foobarry: yeah, but I don't do very much on this PC - what I'm after is things that're two ssh hops away notifying me
[11:12] <crogers> not sure if there's one for unity.
[11:12] <foobarry> ugh
[11:12] <foobarry> gnome extensions made me sad
[11:12] <BigRedS> crogers: that's at thing I can completely see the use of, but I've never really found it myself
[11:12] <foobarry> i tried using gnome 3 for a month
[11:13] <foobarry> then realised the gnome extensions were unstable and broke regularly
[11:13] <BigRedS> foobarry: clipit is a traditional clipboard manager, not sure if it works in unity, though
[11:13] <foobarry> and also you couldn't update gnome if you wanted your extensions
[11:15] <crogers> https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/779/clipboard-indicator/
[11:15] <crogers> Sorry, got the name of it wrong
[11:16] <crogers> controll the settings of it in gnome-tweak-tool under extensions
[11:16] <crogers> foobarry, yea, the popular ones get updated more regularly.
[11:16] <crogers> And tbh, I'd like something that works for other wms
[11:17] <crogers> but... the pretty. :D
[11:20] <crogers> Also not saying it's perfect.
[11:20] <crogers> That calendar issue is... pretty lame. lol
[11:20] <crogers> I mean, it's not like there's not a calendar application.
[11:21] <crogers> but to be useful in the top bar, you really should be able to call it up at the day you double-click on.
[11:24] <crogers> I'd also like the ability to search the file system within the file open dialog.
[11:24] <crogers> In-general
[11:31] <crogers> I do miss one thing in WIndows though.
[11:32] <crogers> Just one really.
[11:32] <crogers> When re-naming a file, you could hit the tab-key and it would automatically skip to the next file to rename.
[11:45] <Gargoyle> Gnome... \o/
[11:49] <BigRedS> that took some time!
[11:49] <crogers> is that a good \o/ or a bad \o/ :)
[11:51] <Gargoyle> That's an awesome \o/
[11:52] <Gargoyle> It's probably going to be worth the switch just for the hiDPI window scaling. :-)
[11:52] <crogers> Hehehe.
[11:52] <crogers> Yea, that is useful.
[11:52] <Gargoyle> Is there a tool for configuring mouse buttons?
[11:52] <crogers> Although, I think you can tweak that in unity now too.
[11:53] <Gargoyle> crogers, It's crap in unity.
[11:53] <crogers> Gotcha. :)
[11:53] <Gargoyle> you get menu bars and title scaling, not the whole window contents.
[11:53] <crogers> How many buttons you got?
[11:53] <Gargoyle> 6
[11:54] <Gargoyle> Two on the thumb side, normally have one of them doing the expose type thing which super key is doing.
[11:56] <crogers> Unfortuantely, the only way I know is by command-line.
[11:57] <crogers> http://askubuntu.com/questions/152297/how-to-configure-extra-buttons-in-logitech-mouse
[11:57] <crogers> It's... an ugly solution.
[11:58] <crogers> Would be a good summer project to write a gui front-end for it though. :)
[12:00] <crogers> Want to see something really cool in Gnome?
[12:00] <crogers> Open a bunch of programs.
[12:00] <crogers> hit the Super key
[12:01] <crogers> then click-drag a few of them to the empty desktop
[12:01] <crogers> Step 3, profit.
[12:04] <TwistedLucidity> Umm....pretty sure I just bind the mouse buttons to an action; no need to extra magics
[12:04] <TwistedLucidity> Lemme check....
[12:06] <crogers> It really needs to be written into the mouse utillity.
[12:06] <crogers> *mouse and touchpad
[12:06] <TwistedLucidity> Well, I know it responds to all key inputs; just can't recall what I did.
[15:02] <diddledan> I'm in the market for a new phone. should I wait for october to see what google are gonna announce or drop the money on a nexus now?
[15:04] <Myrtti> I'm pretty close to getting a Moto X Force myself, still, since Moto Z Force looks like a feature disappointment for me
[15:05] <crogers> diddledan I'd wait, personally.
[15:05] <crogers> If not for the announcement, for the fact that everything else will get a discount when the new model comes out.
[15:07] <Myrtti> historically the older Nexii have been on discount in store.google.com from about now-ish. Although I think last year they sold the old model with full price until stocks ran out.
[15:09] <crogers> I've also been tempted to go extreemly low-rent, just ot see. I've seen some off-brand Android phones go for less than £50, that got excellent reviews.
[15:12] <diddledan> whatever I go for I think I want to ensure it has USB Type-C connector
[15:13] <BigRedS> I've just bought a new phone to get away from the relatively-cheap one I thought I'd probably tolerate
[15:13] <crogers> this is adorable too: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013788QYI/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1460923884&sr=8-5&keywords=posh+phone&linkCode=sl1&tag=socialtech109-20&linkId=69c6db6ce7974ed66d2d7ac34ed9d794
[15:15] <crogers> I draw a lot on my phone, so there's really only one option for me at this point. :P
[15:16] <BigRedS> ah, I tend to break my phones a lot so there's only two or three options for me
[15:17] <crogers> BigRedS, how do you typically destroy them?
[15:17] <BigRedS> mostly by drowning. I use them as satnavs on my bike
[15:17] <BigRedS> sometimes they fall off, too
[15:18] <BigRedS> actually, I bent one of them on a rollercoaster
[15:19] <crogers> BigRedS, have you considered an otterbox?
[15:19] <crogers> I'd take a serious look at the little one I posted a link to.
[15:20] <BigRedS> yeah, I had a samsung in an otterbox before I got the sonys. It was pretty good, but when it eventually leaks you get moisture between the screen and screen protector and the touchscreen stops working very well
[15:20] <crogers> Plastic exterior, £40
[15:20] <crogers> Looks like a nokia from 2005, it may be perfect! ;)
[15:20] <BigRedS> yeah, I find crap phones too frustrating
[17:36] <Gargoyle> Does anyone use a sonos system ?
[19:40] <lopta> Mornin'
[20:50] <Laney> http://www.threemediacentre.co.uk/news/2016/three-extends-feel-at-home-service.aspx
[20:50]  * Laney snuggles Three
[21:29]  * zmoylan-pi reports Laney to hr... :-P