[04:18] <pitti> Good morning
[05:13] <ion> Hi
[06:46] <dholbach> good morning
[07:59] <ev> @pilot in
[08:17] <lifeless> ok, I have an offtopic q; what would cause setgid(1000) to fail in a process I just ran as sudo process; my uid being 1000, and the process is a fuse file system provider
[08:17] <lifeless> pointers etc appreciated
[08:17] <lifeless> EPERM is the error
[08:17] <pitti> was just going to ask, but man setgid() actually lists that as only possible error
[08:18] <pitti> lifeless: do you get an AppArmor violation in dmesg by any chance?
[08:18] <lifeless> its being called from the pre_exec hook of a subprocess call
[08:18] <lifeless> checking
[08:18] <lifeless> [1021271.432495] iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Tx aggregation enabled on ra = 94:44:52:a8:40:2f tid = 0
[08:18] <lifeless> [1021547.963081] iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Tx aggregation enabled on ra = 94:44:52:a8:40:2f tid = 6
[08:18] <lifeless> (e.g. no, not AFAICT)
[08:19] <lifeless> pitti: oh, and finally, the subprocess call preexec function does a chroot as its very very first thing
[08:19] <lifeless> so fork; chroot; setgid -> failure
[08:20] <lifeless> its chrooting into the parent processes fuse fs
[08:20] <pitti> lifeless: at the time you do setgid() you have euid==1000?
[08:20] <pitti> or euid==0?
[08:20] <lifeless> I sure hope so, let me instrument
[08:20] <lifeless> (the chroot works, so I have been assuming that)
[08:20] <pitti> if you are not root, i. e. euid=1000, then in the chroot the uid 1000 might not be in group 1000, or there is no group 1000 in /etc/groups or something like that?
[08:21] <lifeless> one possibility is that /etc/groups isn't in the chroot
[08:22] <pitti> lifeless: so printing out euid, uid, egid, and gid is useful; if that looks alright, then maybe print capget()
[08:22] <ogra_> if it is its very unlikely to contain 1000
[08:22] <pitti> that shouldn't matter if you are euid=0, but very well might if you are euid=1000
[08:22] <ogra_> yeah
[08:22] <jamespage> doko: the java7 FTBFS bugs will need a retest early in quantal - suspect there will be some new ones as well
[08:23] <lifeless> 0 0 0 0
[08:23] <lifeless> before the chroot
[08:24] <lifeless> will grab after the chroot figures, but I wouldn't expect them to have changed
[08:24] <lifeless> yeah, all 0
[08:26] <pitti> hm, perhaps there is some new YAMA magic or whatever which removes capabilities after chroot()?
[08:26] <sbeattie> I don't think so...
[08:26] <pitti> lifeless: can you compare the output of cap_get_proc() before and after chroot?
[08:26] <pitti> and print it?
[08:26] <lifeless> I'll take the chroot out as an experiment
[08:27] <lifeless> no error without the chroot
[08:27] <pitti> lifeless: in particular, test cap_get_proc() & CAP_SETGID ?
[08:27] <lifeless> what module is cap_get_proc in?
[08:28] <pitti> #include <sys/capability.h>
[08:28] <lifeless> harh
[08:28] <lifeless> (this is python :P)
[08:28] <pitti> oh, hmm; ctypes FTW?
[08:29] <sbeattie> lifeless: paste strace -f output perhaps?
[08:32] <lifeless> python-cap-ng
[08:37] <lifeless> so, cap_to_text() ?
[08:39] <lifeless> hah, python segfault
[08:43] <lifeless> in cap_to_text
[08:46] <angeloc> Hi guys, i'm writing some scripts for ubuntu accomplishments, until now i solved all my problems reading online api documentation, but I'm now in stuck
[08:46] <angeloc> i have to find all packages uploaded by a person, can you suggest me the best way?
[08:47] <diwic> seb128, I was able to resolve part a) of bug 984637, see comment 8
[08:47] <diwic> seb128, and part b) has been resolved by ronoc already
[08:47] <micahg> angeloc: look at this: http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi
[08:47] <seb128> diwic, great, thanks, I will make sure both are fixed in the SRU
[08:48] <diwic> seb128, thank you
[08:48] <tumbleweed> micahg, angeloc: be aware that ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi is quite slow, please don't hit it too hard
[08:48] <micahg> angeloc: tumbleweed: I wasn't suggesting to use it, but to look at the code behind it (link at the bottom)
[08:48] <tumbleweed> ah
[08:49] <angeloc> tumbleweed, thank you
[08:49] <angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: ok
[08:50] <micahg> angeloc: although, now that I think about it, would probably want to query Launchpad directly rather than Debian's database
[08:50] <tumbleweed> it gets data from UDD. We have a UDD mirror on ubuntuwire, so if you need to run something server side that accesses UDD, it's doable
[08:51] <angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: weel yes, i'm using launchpad api for all my needs
[08:51] <angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: but I cannot find a way to get all packages uploaded by a person
[08:51] <tumbleweed> angeloc: yeah launchpad's API won't help you there
[08:52] <micahg> angeloc: #launchpad or #launchpad-dev would probably be better
[08:52] <angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: i asked there, but no replies ...
[08:52] <lifeless> win
[08:52] <lifeless> #0  0x00007ffff523d501 in cap_to_text () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcap.so.2
[08:52] <lifeless> #1  0x00007ffff545aea4 in ffi_call_unix64 () from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload/_ctypes.so
[08:52] <lifeless> #2  0x00007ffff545a8c5 in ffi_call () from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload/_ctypes.so
[08:52] <lifeless> #3  0x00007ffff544b2c2 in _ctypes_callproc () from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload/_ctypes.so
[08:52] <lifeless> (this works if I do it outside of a worker thread)
[08:53] <lifeless> could libcap be unsafe with threads? seems unlikely. ..
[08:55] <pitti> lifeless: libcap shoudl be thread save, but ctypes might not?
[08:57] <lifeless> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7024507/am-i-crashing-ctypes-or-libflac seems relvant
[08:57] <lifeless> *relevant*
[08:59] <lifeless> pitti: it claims to be threadsafe
[09:02] <lifeless> pitti: it may be this - http://bugs.python.org/issue11048 - a libffi bug
[09:13] <pitti> lifeless: oh, is your chroot r/o?
[09:14] <lifeless> pitti: it should support writes to /tmp
[09:14] <lifeless> pitti: but its a bit hard to reason about
[09:14] <lifeless> pitti: as its a fuse layer
[09:14] <lifeless> pitti: in the parent process
[09:14] <lifeless> I'm whipping up a cython binding
[09:40] <lifeless> pitti:
[09:40] <lifeless> '=ep'
[09:40] <lifeless> '=ep'
[09:41] <lifeless> before and after the chroot
[09:44] <pitti> lifeless: ok, so it's not that either; I'm afraid that was my last idea what could cause it to EPERM :/
[09:45] <lifeless> does setgid read stuff from the fs ?
[09:45]  * lifeless is willing to assume his fuse layer is buggered ;>
[09:45] <pitti> no, it shouldn't
[09:47] <pitti> ev: wow, haven't seen https://errors.ubuntu.com/ before
[09:47] <ev> pitti: it only went live last/this week :)
[09:47] <lifeless> shiny isn't it
[09:48] <ev> *lots* more to do there
[09:48] <ev> so read it as what it could be, not what it is :)
[09:48] <pitti> yes, sure, but it's the first real ouput I see from whoopsie
[09:49] <lifeless> ev: what does the MTBF mean there?
[09:49] <ev> the mean of the mean time between failures for all users in the system (so only people who have experienced crashes)
[09:49] <pitti> ev: oh, this has public tracebacks?
[09:49] <ev> pitti: they're going behind openid
[09:50] <ev> webops is on it
[09:50] <ev> err Ubuntu SSO
[09:50] <pitti> that pycentral crash looks so trivial to fix
[09:51] <ev> I know, right? :)
[09:52] <ev> pitti, lifeless: ps. we've shovelled 3,868,092 crashes into the database since March 20th
[09:52] <lifeless> sweet
[09:52] <lifeless> what % have been retraced ?
[09:53] <ev> https://errors.ubuntu.com/api/retracer/results
[09:53] <ev> mind, not all crashes get retraced (some are python, and we only ask for one core dump for each stacktrace address signature)
[09:54] <ev> not sure why 10.04 is showing up
[09:54] <ev> it's on my list to look into
[09:54] <hrw> debootstrapping quantal ends with: E: Release signed by unknown key (key id AED4B06F473041FA)
[09:54] <ev> it's going off apport's DistroRelease field
[09:54] <hrw> what is a reason?
[09:55] <dholbach> cking, regarding bug 987840 - my sister has the same model, so if you need some testing, please let me know
[09:55] <lifeless> ev: so a tiny proportion ?
[09:56] <lifeless> assuming that "20120426": {"Ubuntu 10.04:failed": 17, "Ubuntu 10.04:success": 1, "Ubuntu 11.10:failed": 3, "Ubuntu 11.10:success": 8, "Ubuntu 12.04:failed": 864, "Ubuntu 12.04:success": 1812} means what I think it does ?
[09:56] <ev> yes
[09:56] <cking> dholbach, ok, thanks for letting me know
[09:56] <lifeless> ev: how many of that 3.8M are dupes, do you know ?
[09:56] <hrw> nevermind - rebuilt debootstrap with quantal
[09:57] <ev> lifeless: one moment, I'll craft something to count buckets
[09:57] <lifeless> pitti: an alternate approach, is it possible to setuid etc while keeping the capability to chroot ?
[09:57] <pitti> lifeless: yes, there is
[09:58] <pitti> lifeless: don't use setuid(), use setresuid(uid, uid, -1)
[09:58] <pitti> then you can switch back to setresuid(0, 0, -1)
[09:58] <pitti> but of course that only provides protection against programmer errors
[09:58] <pitti> a malicious program can also setresuid back to root
[09:59] <pitti> so in general it's better to fork and setuid() in the child
[09:59] <lifeless> pitti: ah, I mean irreversible setuid, keep the capability to chroot /only/
[09:59] <pitti> lifeless: yes, that works, too
[09:59] <lifeless> pitti: the current does the better thing, but has this little flaw its not working
[09:59] <cjwatson> hrw: That's the Debian signing key, so you were accidentally bootstrapping Debian
[09:59] <lifeless> pitti: so I'm looking for a workaround; keeping root is undesirable
[10:00] <lifeless> pitti: pointers on how to keep the capabilities ?
[10:00] <pitti> lifeless: prctl(PR_SET_KEEPCAPS), setuid()
[10:00] <pitti> lifeless: and the cap_set_proc() and drop all but CAP_SYS_CHROOT
[10:00] <lifeless> thanks; I presume I call a cap_set_proc to drop the caps after the chroot
[10:01] <ev> lifeless: 30525 total problems (with the aforementioned 3.8 million instances)
[10:01] <lifeless> I'm thinking this will let me alter the order of calls
[10:01] <pitti> lifeless: note that with prctl(PR_SET_KEEPCAPS) and setuid() the process still has effectively root privs
[10:01] <lifeless> ev: cool; and the daily thing shows instances, not problems ?
[10:02] <ev> the website shows problems, not instances (until you click through on a crash signature)
[10:02] <lifeless> ev: I meant the counts
[10:02] <pitti> lifeless: and yes, you should drop CAP_SYS_CHROOT right after chrooting, otherwise you can easily escape out of the chroot
[10:02] <ev> something is wrong with the numbers in the table
[10:02] <ev> ah yes
[10:02] <ev> the counts in the table (frequency) should show instances
[10:02] <ev> but they feel wrong at the moment - another thing I'll be looking into
[10:04] <jk-> looks like precise hasn't made it to http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release-lts yet, is that intentional?
[10:04] <jk-> (it's in /meta-release though)
[10:04] <cjwatson> Yes.
[10:04] <cjwatson> It won't until 12.04.1.
[10:05] <cjwatson> It's in http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release-lts-development so that do-release-upgrade -d works.
[10:05] <jk-> cjohnston: ok, thanks :)
[10:08] <jk-> sensible plan is sensible.
[10:56] <lifeless> pitti: lolol that works now chroot fails because of denied access to the fs; *that* I can do something about :)
[10:56] <micahg> cjwatson: are you planning on removing the archive enforcement for the xz deb dpkg pre-depends for quantal (or is it already done)?
[10:56] <lifeless> pitti: and this may explain the setgid/setuid failure - if the cwd isn't readable by the new group.
[10:58] <lifeless> pitti: however, that can wait for evil genius saturday
[10:58] <lifeless> after sleeps
[10:58] <lifeless> pitti: thanks for the hand, much appreciated
[11:09] <pitti> lifeless: hm, strange -- setuid() shouldn't care about cwd
[11:15] <tjaalton> jibel: hey, you marked 989525 as dupe of a closed bug, but that's wrong
[11:16] <tjaalton> jibel: since the bug is not the error message of the dupe, but the fact that a package is installed and later dpkg claims it's not
[11:21] <tjaalton> jibel: uh, sorry.. noticed your comment..
[11:22] <tjaalton> jibel: ok so disregard everything I said :)
[11:27] <cjwatson> micahg: At some point yes
[12:20] <cjwatson> micahg: https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/remove-data-tar-xz-version-requirement/+merge/103859 FYI
[12:21] <micahg> cjwatson: shouldn't the check stay in place for pre-12.10 stuff? (I'm thinking backports here)
[12:22] <cjwatson> No
[12:22] <cjwatson> We don't generally bother since it's trivial to review and it's painful to make the check act that way in LP
[12:22] <cjwatson> We didn't bother for bzip2
[12:23] <cjwatson> Also, backports don't matter much for lucid->precise upgrades
[12:23] <micahg> I was thinking backporting to lucid :)
[12:23] <cjwatson> DDTT, it'll fail
[12:23] <cjwatson> the check in archiveuploader wasn't for the benefit of people backporting without paying attention, it was solely to ensure sane upgrades
[12:24] <cjwatson> your backports tests should catch wrongness like that already without LP needing to help you
[12:24] <micahg> ok :)
[12:54] <hyperair> weird. it looks like liferea's dbus stuff just screws up every now and then
[12:54] <jdstrand> pitti: hi! would you mind rejecting https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/precise/dropbear/CVE-2012-0920/+merge/103739, https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/oneiric/dropbear/CVE-2012-0920/+merge/103385 and https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/lucid/dropbear/2012-0920/+merge/103384. they are security fixes against the release version, not security (I have uploaded the patches though)
[12:54] <pitti> jdstrand: sure, done
[12:54] <hyperair> first the menu disappears from the unity panel and reappears on the liferea window, then it disappears from the messaging indicator...
[12:55] <jdstrand> pitti: thanks! :)
[13:00] <Laney> cjohnston: Hey, I've got some summit questions if you can help me… What does "Attend this meeting" do? Does it have the same effect on the scheduler as subscribing to the blueprint (what about Participation Essential)? And what is "Propose a meeting"? Is it now an additional step that needs doing after all of the LP blueprint stuff to get stuff on the schedule?
[13:05] <cjohnston> Laney: attend is the same as subscribing to a bp except that if there is a bp you will not get the emails when the bp is changed
[13:05] <cjohnston> I have to look at the code about the essential question.. I didn't write that part
[13:06] <cjohnston> Laney: the blueprints still work the same way
[13:06] <Laney> I'm not sure what effect that has on the scheduler to be honest, but if it does have some then ideally you could set that through summit too.
[13:07] <cjohnston> if you follow the old.way of creating a bp for the meeting, you don't need to worry about proposing a meeting in summit
[13:07] <cjohnston> proposing a meeting in summit would be instead of creating a bp
[13:08] <Laney> ah, another way of proposing meetings without needing a blueprint
[13:08]  * Laney gets it now
[13:08] <Laney> thanks
[13:08] <cjohnston> Laney:  the essential or something else.. I dont understand your comment
[13:08] <Laney> go to subscribe to a blueprint and you will see a "Participation essential" checkbox
[13:09] <Laney> it is my understanding that this has some influence on the scheduler vs. just normally subscribing
[13:09] <Laney> I was suggesting that this should also be possible through the new summit UI
[13:14] <cjohnston> Laney:  ok.. ya.. familiar with that, just wanted to make sure I had context.of the statement right
[13:14] <cjohnston> ty
[13:15] <Laney> np
[13:15] <cjohnston> Laney: I'm talking with mhall119  about it right now
[13:18] <Laney> :-)
[13:50] <ogra_> dholbach, oh, btw i'll be in berlin over the weekend
[13:52] <dholbach> ogra_, nice - when?
[13:52] <ogra_> well, tomorrow afternoon until ...
[13:52] <ogra_> open end :)
[13:52] <dholbach> awesome
[13:53] <s1aden> ogra_: moving?  Or just until UDS?
[13:54] <ogra_> s1aden, just visiting a friend
[14:34] <bjf> @pilot out
[14:40] <tedg> I'm getting an odd behavior when installing packages: http://paste.ubuntu.com/949899/
[14:40] <tedg> Does anyone have a clue on what's going on there?
[14:42] <seb128> tedg, do you use i386 or amd64?
[14:42] <seb128> "/sbin/ldconfig.real: /lib/i386-linux-gnu/ is not a symbolic link" is weird
[14:42] <seb128> I blame infinity :p
[14:42] <tedg> seb128, I use amd64 but have a bunch of i386 packages (I'm not sure why)
[14:42] <seb128> tedg, multiarch?
[14:42] <tedg> Guessing I installed flash or something that pulled them in.
[14:42] <seb128> righ
[14:42] <ogra_> stop cross-grading to redhat !
[14:42] <tedg> Yeah, but I imagine they don't come for fun ;-)
[14:42] <seb128> you can probably to uninstall them and see what it wants to remove
[14:43] <seb128> that's orthogonal to the warnings though
[14:43] <ogra_> but yeah, probably balme infinity, seb128 is right
[14:43] <ogra_> or doko :)
[14:44] <seb128> the fun factor is higher when you blame infinity though ;-)
[14:44] <ogra_> indeed :)
[14:53] <happyaron> jono: ping
[15:30] <trijntje> Hi all, can anybody tell me who is responsible for hosting the tracker for ubuntu torrents?
[15:30] <cjwatson> Canonical.
[15:35] <trijntje> cjwatson: sorry for double posting. What I meant was if there is any team/person I could contact about using the ubuntu tracker for localized iso images
[15:39] <cjwatson> trijntje: I suspect we might not be willing to do that.  That tracker is on very old hardware and has a hard time of it as it is.
[15:40] <cjwatson> trijntje: But I guess you could ask #canonical-sysadmin on freenode.
[15:41] <trijntje> cjwatson: I'll ask there, thanks. I'm from a small country, so it shouldnt add too much extra load
[15:42] <cjwatson> Right, but if we add one localised image then to be fair we have to be willing to add them all.
[15:42] <cjwatson> And that's a lot, at least potentially.
[15:45] <trijntje> thats true, I'll just ask and see ;)
[16:03] <pelya> Hi. I've made an app for Android, that will install and run Ubuntu without root privileges (that is, you can run it on a stock phone, without custom ROM or anything, it's similar to Wubi in this regard).  The mouse and keyboard are highly advised, but not required (Galaxy Note' stylus substitutes mouse quite well).  Here's the link: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cun
[16:03] <pelya> I've tested it on Galaxy Note, and I've installed and launched Gimp using Synaptic (took several tries though), no promises that any other application will work.
[16:03] <pelya> There was a lot of fuss about Ubuntu on Android, and there's lot of text here: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android  it mostly advertises Ubuntu to cellphone manufacturers, but it misses one point - those guys are driven by money and business, and they are not interested in anything that does not show immediate profits (even if that's something as simple as rooting your device and unpacking tarfile). So, Ubuntu needs an app, a simple app that non-techie
[16:03] <pelya> Alternatively, we may try to wrap some popular applications with no alternatives on Android, like Gimp or Libreoffice, into minimal fakechrooted Linux environment, however that stuff can only be installed into internal phone storage (not SD card), which is usually very limited, so 2-3 of them will eat all free space.
[16:03] <pelya> So, I've wanted to make announcement on the ubuntu-mobile mailing list, but there's no such mailing list and the link is broken on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu  So, where should I post that info, or this IRC channel is enough? I suppose I should open a bug on an Ubuntu brainstorm page.
[16:12] <SpamapS> pelya: perhaps ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list would be better, IRC is not a great place to announce things
[16:35] <pelya> I've created a ticket on brainstorm.ubuntu.com, so the idea won't get lost (I hope)
[17:39] <dobey> barry: ping
[17:40] <barry> dobey: pong
[17:41] <dobey> barry: hey, how does one get things added to the python3 porting progress spreadsheet?
[17:41] <slangasek> as requirements?
[17:41] <slangasek> did we miss some? :)
[17:41] <dobey> yes. there are things we'll need for u1, which aren't on there
[17:42] <slangasek> for parts of u1 that are going to be on the CD, though?
[17:42] <barry> dobey: just edit the doc!  it's shared publicly and anons can edit it
[17:42] <slangasek> I thought the main body of u1 isn't on the CD currently
[17:42] <dobey> slangasek: yes, particularly for running the test suites, though not necessarily requirements for the runtime
[17:43] <barry> dobey: put those on the "good to have" sheet
[17:43] <dobey> slangasek: only part of u1 not currently on CD is the qt dependant bits
[17:43] <dobey> barry: well i don't see how we can port u1 itself without them :)
[17:43] <barry> dobey: that's where we're putting things that aren't strictly required for the cd but might be useful for other reasons (e.g. Suggests)
[17:45] <slangasek> dobey: ah, and that's documented on the spreadsheet, yes - not sure what I was thinking of, probably a different release :)
[17:45] <dobey> though i suspect the big problem for us is goign to be twisted
[17:45] <slangasek> barry, dobey: I think anything needed for the test suite needs to be treated as required; we don't want to be sacrificing testability in the process of python3 porting
[17:46] <barry> dobey: yep, twisted is something of a blocker.  i've been chatting with various folks in the twisted community.  we'll have to talk about how to get the parts of twisted we need ported in 4 months, at uds
[17:46] <barry> slangasek: agreed.  dobey feel free to put those testing requirements in the main pages.  maybe add a comment about what they're used for
[17:46] <dobey> barry: yeah, i just added myself to the blueprint as participation essential :)
[17:46] <dobey> ok, will do
[17:47] <barry> dobey: +1
[18:59] <barry> kenvandine: ping.  i wonder if you could provide some help with running the test suite for lp:gwibber
[18:59] <kenvandine> barry, sure
[18:59] <kenvandine> you need to run make check  from in the test subdir
[19:00] <barry> kenvandine: ah, thanks, let me try that
[19:00] <kenvandine> tests isn't in the SUBDIRS
[19:00] <barry> kenvandine: (i'm working on removing the dependency on mx.DateTime since it looks like mx won't be ported to py3 any time soon)
[19:00] <kenvandine> barry, AWESOME!
[19:00] <kenvandine> i was worried about that
[19:00] <barry> kenvandine: yikes: ./test-runner: line 2: dbus-test-runner: command not found
[19:01] <kenvandine> ah, you need dbus-test-running
[19:01] <kenvandine> s/running/runner
[19:01] <barry> gotcha
[19:03] <kenvandine> barry, i was planning to spend my spare time next week during the product sprint trying to run gwibber-service with py3 to see how much pain that would be
[19:03] <kenvandine> get a feeling for it before UDS
[19:03] <kenvandine> barry, how are you feeling about it?
[19:03] <barry> kenvandine: awesome.  definitely ping me if you want any help.  right now i just want to get rid of mx :)
[19:04] <barry> kenvandine: freaking out a bit at the amount of work, but excited to be digging in :)
[19:04] <barry> kenvandine: do you know what package gtk.test comes in?
[19:04] <kenvandine> so it won't be "trivial" :-D
[19:04] <barry> ImportError: No module named gtk.test
[19:04] <barry>
[19:04] <barry> ;)
[19:04] <kenvandine> hummm
[19:04] <kenvandine> must be the gtk gir?
[19:05] <kenvandine> no... /me looks
[19:07] <kenvandine> barry, where is that coming from?
[19:09] <barry> kenvandine: weird.  it came the first time i ran 'make check', but now it's not happening!
[19:09] <kenvandine> barry, odd...
[19:09] <kenvandine> :)
[19:09] <barry> kenvandine: well, i guess we can pretend it never happend
[19:09]  * kenvandine never saw a thing
[19:09] <kenvandine> :)
[19:10] <barry> kenvandine: :)  thanks.  let's see how far i get
[19:12] <kenvandine> barry, the mx.DateTime stuff is actually covered in the tests, which should help
[19:13] <barry> kenvandine: phew :)
[19:13] <kenvandine> keep the tests using mx.DateTime and change the service to see if it breaks the tests
[19:14] <barry> great idea
[19:20]  * happyaron sabdfl
[19:20]  * happyaron sorry...
[19:20] <sabdfl> np
[19:32] <ScottK> Where is the knob I turn to coax apport into sending bug reports and not just to the crash database?
[19:56] <dobey> anyone know how to get -Wmaybe-uninitialized on gcc in precise? doesn't seem to exist there, but i have code failing to build on quantal because of it, so it makes it hard to fix :-/
[20:00] <slangasek> ScottK: apparently the answer is to delete line 23 of /etc/apport/crashdb.conf :/
[20:00] <ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
[20:01] <slangasek> dobey: are you looking for -Wuninitialized?
[20:02] <dobey> slangasek: no, there seems to be a maybe-uninitialized in the new gcc now
[20:02] <slangasek> which "new" gcc?
[20:02] <slangasek> gcc-4.7?
[20:02] <dobey> yeah
[20:03] <slangasek> ok
[20:03] <slangasek> well, I expect the answer is you can't (sanely) get it on precise, and would need to set up a quantal chroot for debugging
[20:04] <dobey> so it would seem :-/
[20:04] <ScottK> That did it.  Thanks.
[20:05] <slangasek> dobey: really though, if you're trying to debug build failures on quantal, you should use a quantal chroot *anyway*, since there could be any number of other latent issues
[20:06] <slangasek> i.e. issues not related to the compiler
[20:23] <slangasek> kees: what do you think of resolvconf running chattr -i automatically on upgrade and popping a debconf prompt to let the admin know? (bug #989585)
[20:24] <kees> slangasek: that'd be fine, IMO.
[20:25] <kees> slangasek: I would have welcomed it in my situation
[20:25]  * slangasek nods
[20:25] <slangasek> we've effectively already said that you don't get to keep it immutable, so the admin doesn't actually have a choice
[20:25] <slangasek> so no sense in making them do it manually when we can do it automatically
[20:26] <maco> i'll need to remember that one
[20:26] <slangasek> maco: ?
[20:26] <maco> i am a big fan of chattr +i as a hack to work around daemons stomping on my config
[20:26] <maco> i'm sure ive used it on resolv.conf before
[20:27] <slangasek> ah
[20:27] <slangasek> yeah, /etc/resolv.conf is officially no longer Your Config™. :)
[20:31] <Nafallo> O_o
[20:32] <bdmurray> slangasek: I think the only thing to do with bug 989040 is mark it invalid
[20:32] <bdmurray> slangasek: and then block those in apport
[20:37] <hyperair> well this sucks. gnome-sushi's scrolling is broken in precise, probably because clutter can't handle xi2
[20:43] <barry> kenvandine: well, mx.DateTime definitely has more powerful time string parsers.  it's a bit hard for me to tell what the expected input formats are, but i think it's ISO 8601 from FB, right?
[20:43] <barry> kenvandine: gwibber/util/__init__.py's parsetime() is more difficult to decipher.
[20:44] <dobey> barry: does it really make any sense to differentiate between binary and source packages on the python 3 spreadsheet?
[20:44] <barry> kenvandine: oh, and naive timestamps, utc?  i think local/naive, but FB's API makes me think maybe us/pacific timezones
[20:45] <barry> dobey: mostly, that's for convenience so you don't have to figure out what to download to hack
[20:45] <dobey> barry: i mean, shouldn't it only list the source packages? it seems silly to me to list the same things over and over N times, particularly for sources which create numerous binary packages
[20:48] <kenvandine> barry, i think we store all the timestamps as utc
[20:48] <dobey> barry: the library/application split can also be a bit confusing for some of these packages
[20:48] <kenvandine> but i vaguely recall not all of the services gave us utc so we do the conversion
[20:48] <dobey> but perhaps that just exposes problems in the binary packaging that need to be fixed as well
[20:49] <kenvandine> i think facebook might give us the logged in users current time with timezone
[20:51] <kenvandine> barry, i think parsetime was to convert the timestamp without the local locale
[20:51] <barry> dobey: probably should just list source packages, but the initial search yielded binary packages so that kind of got exposed through the tools that created the initial spreadsheet
[20:51] <barry> kenvandine: so let me ask it a different way.  are all these semantics tested? :)
[20:52] <kenvandine> yes :)
[20:52] <barry> kenvandine: excellent!  i'm less worried about screwing it up then :)
[20:52] <barry> kenvandine: thanks
[20:52] <barry> brb
[20:53] <kenvandine> well, the test suite doesn't take into account all the possible variations of time strings we might get from the service, it just uses the sample data
[20:56] <e11bits> I would like to modify an existing package and make it available to the public as a variant of the original package. Are there some recipes on how to change package naming, versioning, control files to do so? I'm sure I'm not the first one in doing something like this.
[20:56] <dobey> lol, there's a screenshot for pyflakes in the software center
[20:57] <dobey> e11bits: the personal package archives page on launchpad help has info about how to do it with launchpad PPAs
[20:59] <e11bits> dobey: thanks. I will have a look and already threaten to come back with more questions (or if you name a channel that is more suited for things like this)
[21:00] <dobey> barry: how does one package an application such as pep8 for both python3 and python 2.x exactly?
[21:00] <tumbleweed> dobey: you usually end up doing a pep8 and pep83
[21:00] <tumbleweed> well, pep8-3 would probably be better
[21:01] <tumbleweed> e11bits: #ubuntu-packaging
[21:01] <dobey> ick
[21:01] <e11bits> tumbleweed: Ah, great! Thanks!
[21:01] <tumbleweed> unless it has a shebang, you can't tell what version of python a .py file is targetting
[21:02] <dobey> tumbleweed: what if it targets both?
[21:03] <tumbleweed> then run both pep8s on it :)
[21:04] <tumbleweed> pep8 is probably something that wouldn't need a separate version for python3, though
[21:04] <tumbleweed> pyflakes would
[21:05] <dobey> well pep8 apparently does
[21:05] <dobey> try "python3 pep8 /usr/bin/pep8" for a fun error
[21:05] <dobey> yay eggs
[21:06] <tumbleweed> dobey: I mean, the level of analylis it does on python source would probably allow one version to work on both. I wasn't saying I expected it to run on python3
[21:06] <dobey> tumbleweed: or i guess it would just include the python3 one in the package as well?
[21:08] <dobey> tumbleweed: oh, does it not actually import files to analyze them?
[21:08] <tumbleweed> nope, it parses them with piles of regexes
[21:09] <dobey> ok, well my original question with s/pep8/pyflakes/ then? :)
[21:10] <tumbleweed> so we'd probably do a separate pyflakes3 binary package
[21:11] <tumbleweed> (depending on how upstream supported python3, it could be a new source package, too. some upstreams are only supporting python3 throguh separate py3-only forks)
[21:27] <barry> dobey, tumbleweed, kenvandine sorry, i was afk.  i agree w/tumbleweed
[22:07] <slangasek> bdmurray: 989040> ack
[22:16] <Amoz> bkerensa, you're in the live hangout, right?
[22:17] <bkerensa> Amoz: yes
[22:17] <bkerensa> Amoz: do you have a question?
[22:17] <Amoz> bkerensa, Wayland!
[22:17] <bkerensa> Amoz: What about?
[22:17] <Amoz> please say something about Wayland =)
[22:17] <Amoz> progress, etc.
[22:17] <Amoz> is it going into 12.10?
[22:18] <slangasek> jono: rc6
[22:18] <slangasek> ;)
[22:19] <Amoz> bkerensa, ^ something about the status of it, is it usable yet? etc :)
[22:21] <bkerensa> Amoz: there :)
[22:21] <Amoz> bkerensa, aah too bad
[22:23] <Amoz> jono, one of the options? please tell me more!
[22:25] <ScottK> This really isn't the IRC channel for discussing a live hangout someone is having.
[22:26] <Amoz> ScottK, sorry, would you mind guiding me where I can get in touch with them? :)
[22:26] <ScottK> No idea, but this channel is for discussion of development of Ubuntu.
[22:27] <stgraber> Amoz: /query jcastro, /query bkerensa, /query akgraner or /query jono come to mind
[22:27] <Amoz> stgraber, thank you :)
[22:28] <bkerensa> Amoz: you could join #Ubuntu-community-team and ask any questions there
[22:28] <bkerensa> :)
[22:28] <Amoz> I wasn't aware it was so important to keep it clean in here :(
[22:28] <akgraner> Amoz, just gave you the link to watch the stream
[22:29] <akgraner> and please join the channel bkerensa posted to ask questions - it's ok - this is all new to us as well :-)


[06:27] <cpaelzer> Hi, was there any change in LP that it started to import comments from RH-BZs this morning
[06:27] <cpaelzer> it seems still going on
[06:27] <cpaelzer> I see many updates to old bugs for these updates
[06:57] <ginggs> cpaelzer: from debian-devel [14:46:22] <cjwatson> FYI, I'm going to be re-enabling the redhat-bugs LP bug tracker soon, so a whole bunch of bugs are going to get comment and status syncs from bugzilla.redhat.com
[06:58] <ginggs> cpaelzer: so that was at about 12:46 UTC on Thursday
[07:06] <cpaelzer> thanks ginggs
[07:06] <cpaelzer> that would match my inbox
[07:07] <cpaelzer> I like the feature in general, just wanted to understand why so many today - that makes sense now - so thanks ginggs for clarifying and thanks cjwatson for the feature
[07:13] <cjwatson> cpaelzer: Yes.  We had somebody who actively wanted it, and it was only disabled due to a temporary problem at the RH end six years ago which we (collectively) forgot to follow up on once they fixed it.
[07:14] <cjwatson> All I did was a bit of cleanup.
[07:50] <wgrant> Well, tbf the temporary problem lasted for about three years
[11:37] <manuelschneid3r> Hi
[11:37] <manuelschneid3r> how do I build a cmae project on launchpad?
[11:37] <manuelschneid3r> the debian/control is automatically generated by cpack
[11:38] <manuelschneid3r> launchpad should just call cmake
[11:39] <cjwatson> Launchpad just calls dpkg-buildpackage; it's up to your packaging to call whatever the upstream build system is.  If you use "dh" (see "man dh") then debhelper will normally make a reasonable guess.
[11:45] <manuelschneid3r> cjwatson, what do you mean by "it's up to your packaging to call whatever the upstream build system is"
[11:46] <cjwatson> manuelschneid3r: Launchpad doesn't know or care whether you use cmake or autotools or anything else.  That's all defined by debian/rules, normally using debhelper to do the hard work.
[11:46] <cjwatson> manuelschneid3r: It is up to debian/rules to do whatever is needed for your package.
[11:52] <cjwatson> manuelschneid3r: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/en/man1/dh.1.html has some short examples of rules files.  The first rules file example there should detect cmake without any help, but you can add "--buildsystem=cmake" if it fails for some reason.  You can then add override targets as shown to fix up any cases where the default behaviour is wrong.
[11:53] <cjwatson> manuelschneid3r: And you can test all this locally using (for example) sbuild; none of this is specific to Launchpad.
[11:53]  * cjwatson → lunch
[13:05] <ali1234> supposing that ubuntu-keyring package didn't exist, how could i create the ubuntu-archive-keyring.gpg file using gpg/apt-key?
[13:06] <ali1234> ie by fetching the key from the keyserver
[13:06] <ali1234> i think it should be something like "apt-key adv --keyring /home/al/foo.gpg --no-default-keyring --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv <fingerprint>"
[13:06] <ali1234> but i can't quite figure it out
[13:08] <ali1234> nvm, got it...
[13:24] <ali1234> what is the difference between /usr/share/keyrings and /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d?
[13:27] <cjwatson> the latter is what apt actually looks at; it's configurable and is updated from the packaged (thus basically immutable) files in the former
[13:28] <cjwatson> well, actually /etc/apt/trusted.gpg is the one that's updated from /usr/share/keyrings/
[13:28] <cjwatson> the .d one is there for non-default packages to drop things into
[13:39] <ali1234> so apt shouldn't care about the contents of /usr/share/keyrings?
[13:42] <cjwatson> not directly; some packages' postinsts read files from there and push them into apt config
[13:43] <ali1234> well, that's the problem i am trying to work around
[13:43] <ali1234> i have two broken keyring packages... the first one is broken because it doesn't exist at all
[13:43] <ali1234> the second one is broken because it installs a file into /usr/share/keyrings and then runs "apt-key add" from its postinst
[13:43] <cjwatson> can you explain how this relates to Launchpad?  If it's related to Launchpad then presumably there's a build log somewhere that we could look at
[13:44] <ali1234> oh, i'm in #launchpad?
[13:44] <cjwatson> you are
[13:53] <smoser> is there a debian bug equivalent of 'LP: #XXX'
[13:53] <smoser> in commit messages (git specifically)
[13:55] <cjwatson> smoser: Nothing I can point to as authoritative and consistent.  It's going to depend on what's processing the commit messages.  There do exist commit hooks on Debian git repositories that tag bugs as pending; I believe they generally use "Closes: #XXX", as in Debian changelogs.
[13:56] <smoser> hm ok. i dont crae for that in that its just not namespaced at all.
[13:56] <cjwatson> Not something I can fix for you.
[13:56] <smoser> no its not :)
[13:56] <smoser> thats fine, thanks.
[13:56] <cjwatson> If you aren't pushing to a repository with a relevant commit hook, then it doesn't really matter.
[13:56] <cjwatson> I've been known to use "Debian: #XXX" for instance.
[13:56] <smoser> yeah. thats what i was planning on doing.
[13:56] <smoser> thanks.
[13:57] <cjwatson> np
[23:59] <QwertyChouskie> Quick question
[23:59] <luk3yx> Ask away
[23:59] <QwertyChouskie> Is it possible to make a build recipe that uses both git and bzr repos?


[03:54] <jphilips> Unit193: yep two did and they didn't find any problems with installation. they tried multiple times.
[07:11] <Unit193> jphilips: Ah just checked the log.  Hrm, OK then...  Well I guess that's kind of good news...
[08:48] <jphilips> I plan to give it a go around sometime this week for testing week
[11:31] <jphilips> bluesabre: can i add a link to the release notes to the testing week page?
[11:34] <jphilips> seems the passphrase prompt isn't visible in xubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/cryptsetup/+bug/1917062
[11:34] <ubot3> Launchpad bug 1917062 in cryptsetup "Decryption passphrase prompt not displayed until escape is pressed (Xubuntu hirsute test case)" [Undecided, New]
[12:56] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in de @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/7a715e59201865262e3761d8c469eedaea14103d (by transifex-integration)
[16:12] <jphilips> which launchpad package should i file general bugs against
[16:13] <jphilips> i installed xubuntu in arabic and none of the UI changes to RTL (right to left)
[16:17] <jphilips> bluesabre: any progress with the gnome software issue - https://twitter.com/chaslinux/status/1377238868412538882
[16:33] <jphilips> bluesabre: would be good to eliminate the contributor docs from transifex
[21:48] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in ar @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/8e0bcabc8e023881e04b0b0e8f58a0d1932b4f86 (by transifex-integration)
[21:48] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in ar @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/044882615a7a53abea42fce919742e886ba673f4 (by transifex-integration)
[22:28] <bluesabre> jphilips: xubuntu-meta might be the best general purpose bug target. What's the bug you're looking to report.


[05:24] <pavlushka> ahoy ZA!
[05:56] <thatgraemeguy> morning peoples
[05:57] <Kilos> hi thatgraemeguy inetpro paddatrapper and everyone else
[05:57] <paddatrapper> Hey Kilos, thatgraemeguy
[06:51] <inetpro> goeie more
[06:51] <Kilos> hi inetpro
[06:52] <inetpro> what's the score oom Kilos?
[06:52] <Kilos> what score inetpro ?
[06:52] <Kilos> is there a game on?
[06:53] <inetpro>  South Africa 242 & 540/8d
[06:53] <inetpro>  Australia 244 & 326/8 (110.0 ov)
[06:53] <inetpro>  Australia require another 213 runs with 2 wickets remaining
[06:53] <Kilos> oh havent watched
[06:53] <inetpro> 1st Test: Australia v South Africa at Perth
[06:54] <inetpro> you should be at the stadium man
[06:54] <Kilos> that sounds good
[06:54] <Kilos> no man
[07:13] <inetpro> Kilos: just jump into the car and go there
[07:14] <Kilos> lol
[07:15] <Kilos> we have just had supper so now its dishes and bath soon
[07:20] <inetpro> Kilos: ok the next test at Hobart is closer to you guys
[07:21] <inetpro> just need to jump onto the Ferry for a few hours
[07:23] <inetpro> and the 3rd is at Adelaide
[07:46] <inetpro> and South Africa winning by 177 runs
[07:46] <Kilos> lol
[07:49] <Kilos> hey inetpro when i was a kid i read an afrikaans book about mossies, and one of the characters was skeel oog at
[07:49] <Kilos> do you know it
[08:18] <inetpro> Kilos: Trompie?
[08:19] <inetpro> trompie en die boksombende
[08:39] <Kilos> nee man dit was van n klomp mossies
[08:39] <Kilos> jy weet , daai voeltjies
[08:40] <Kilos> sparrows
[08:53] <inetpro> Kilos: tell us a bit more about it
[11:25] <Kilos> i dont remember inetpro , just that skeel oog At had his one eye shot out by a kid with a pellet gun
[11:32] <inetpro> Kilos: what made you remember this story?
[11:34] <Kilos> they have mossies here that they call sparrows and debbie is trying to improve her afrikaans so that story popped up in my mind
[11:35] <Kilos> hi chesedo
[11:36] <chesedo> wow Kilos, that's speedious... and hi too, how are things?
[11:36] <Kilos> ok ty and you lad?
[11:37] <chesedo> great thanks oom
[11:38] <Kilos> im ready to sleep just about so not afk for a change
[11:39] <chesedo> oh that explains it (4 secs was quick)
[11:40] <chesedo> this enjoying Aus oom Kilos?
[11:40] <Kilos> not really, the weather sucks but im enjoying being with the girls
[11:41] <Kilos> 3 weeks time ill be back there
[11:41] <chesedo> here it is just clouds and storms, but no rain yet...
[11:42] <chesedo> real proper rain that is...
[11:42] <Kilos> yeah my sis tells me how dry it is there
[11:44] <chesedo> dam about 25% full, and have till about March according to some minister (although by my linear calc it's about early Jan) till we are in serious trouble...
[11:45] <Kilos> yip
[11:48] <Kilos> i say night now guys. have a good day and look after yourselves
[11:48] <Kilos> and say hi to fly for me please
[12:46] <superfly> ohi
[12:51] <chesedo> superfly: from that i gather that you saw Kilos' hi
[12:51] <superfly> chesedo: I see everything
[12:51]  * chesedo goes back to the dark corner with fear
[12:52]  * superfly remembers Trompie en die Boksombende
[12:53] <chesedo> superfly: i'm not old enough to know much about them
[12:54]  * chesedo only knows about one of Trompie's "Een vir my, een vir julle, een vir my, een vir julle..."
[13:02] <superfly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yuP2Qay1g
[13:07] <superfly> whahaha! since when did a bicycle cost R80
[15:55] <qwebirc42625> hi all, I'm sure this is a FAQ but I cant find recent advice. I'm looking to purchase a new latop that is linux friendly. It will be mainly for development. So 15" min screen size. Budget is around 35k and I'd like to get it by mid-dec latest.
[15:55] <qwebirc42625> Does anyone have any pointers?
[15:55] <qwebirc42625> the Acer Predator i7 looks ok
[15:55] <qwebirc42625> but linux support is not well documented
[15:55] <qwebirc42625> I'm not sure where else to look
[15:55] <qwebirc42625> thanks
[15:57] <kulelu88> qwebirc42625: try a Lenovo maybe?
[15:57] <kulelu88> Most laptops are manufactured by like 3 taiwanese companies, so the internals are pretty much the same and kernel support should be reasonable
[15:57] <kulelu88> HPs might work too
[15:58] <kulelu88> although... for R35K, you could order a System76 (or get someone coming from murica to bring it for you)
[15:59] <qwebirc42625> I looked at the system76 but I've seen some terrible reviews lately
[15:59] <qwebirc42625> I'm just trying to avoid getting a mac-book pro
[16:00] <kulelu88> that's true too.
[16:00] <qwebirc42625> thats what is currently being suggested
[16:00] <kulelu88> what was your last laptop? and are you new here?
[16:00] <qwebirc42625> entroWare would be idea, but not an option
[16:00] <qwebirc42625> I'm using a dell latitude. running ubuntu 100% (apart from the dual graphics card nonsense)
[16:00] <qwebirc42625> and yup, I'm new here :D
[16:01] <kulelu88> Dell XPS Ubuntu edition ?
[16:02] <qwebirc42625> xps 13 is the linux version, xps 15 does is not linux as such
[16:02] <qwebirc42625> tricky....
[16:03] <kulelu88> for R35K, you can get a top end SSD gaming laptop and dual-boot it with Linux and SteamOS
[16:04] <qwebirc42625> ok, thanks I'll take a look. So far I've only see then Acer Predator i7
[16:04] <qwebirc42625> I'll check hp and lenovo then too
[16:04] <kulelu88> introduce yourself before you leave qwebirc42625 :)
[16:10] <qwebirc42625> oh, sorry. Hi I'm Andre :)
[16:10] <qwebirc42625> thanks for the help. I'll look around some more. Doing what I can to avoid Apple.
[16:11] <qwebirc42625> though I guess worst case dual booting on a MBP is not the end of the world
[16:11] <kulelu88> aren't Macs harder to dual-boot than regular Windows laptops?
[16:13] <qwebirc42625> yup apparently
[16:14] <qwebirc42625> + the apple tax means you get a lot less hardware
[16:23] <MaN1> harder to dual boot - I wouldn't really say so
[16:24] <MaN1> but I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would willingly pay so much more for the same hardware
[16:25] <qwebirc42625> exactly
[16:26] <qwebirc42625> there are some nice asus options
[16:33] <qwebirc42625> sigh, but the asus arog's cause kernel issues for any kernel after 4.3 :'(
[21:03] <melodie> hi


[16:00] <sil2100> o/
[16:01] <barry> o/
[16:01]  * slangasek waves
[16:01] <cyphermox> o/
[16:02] <infinity> \o
[16:02] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 26 16:02:08 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:02] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[16:02] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
[16:02] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
[16:03] <slangasek> mwhudson cyphermox robru chiluk slangasek caribou tdaitx doko infinity sil2100 bdmurray xnox barry
[16:03] <barry> from first to last
[16:03] <cyphermox> woah
[16:03] <gaughen> o/
[16:03] <cyphermox> - netplan netplan netplan
[16:03] <cyphermox>  - bond support (with it's gazillion knobs)
[16:03] <cyphermox>   - https://git.launchpad.net/netplan/log/?h=cyphermox/bonding
[16:03] <cyphermox>  - bridge support
[16:03] <cyphermox>   - https://git.launchpad.net/netplan/log/?h=cyphermox/bridging
[16:03] <cyphermox>  - preparing for a 0.17 release (in code review)
[16:04] <cyphermox> - os-prober fixes
[16:04] <cyphermox>  - Sponsored more SRU updates from slashd
[16:04] <cyphermox>  - Merged os-prober after cjwatson did some magic with it in Debian.
[16:04] <cyphermox> - discussed NetworkManager issues / tasks with Tony.
[16:04] <cyphermox> - ubiquity screenshots.
[16:04] <cyphermox> - trying to reproduce ubiquity bugs on Intel:
[16:04] <cyphermox>  - no slideshow on XPS13? (bug LP: #1659395)
[16:04] <cyphermox>  - no "press enter" prompt after install (also XPS13) (bug LP: #1659398)
[16:04] <cyphermox> - merging wpa from Debian to get 2.6.
[16:04] <cyphermox> (done)
[16:04] <robru> britney:
[16:04] <robru> * Disable PIUParts (LP: #1651537)
[16:04] <robru> * Fix upstream policy tests.
[16:04] <robru> bileto:
[16:05] <robru> * Fix prereq check in git.
[16:05] <robru> (done)
[16:05] <slangasek> chiluk: ?
[16:06] <chiluk> coming.
[16:06] <slangasek> cyphermox: you managed to rope someone in for netplan code review, then?
[16:06] <cyphermox> slangasek: yeah, doko did review already, and tdaitx said he would after the meeting
[16:06] <tdaitx> slangasek, yes, me
[16:06] <slangasek> cyphermox: spiff
[16:06] <chiluk> LP#1647389 - Discovered workaround . live_migration_tunnelled = False. Checking upstream shortly.
[16:06] <chiluk> LP#1655225 - Letting this bake at user site for a little longer
[16:06] <chiluk> --done--
[16:06] <chiluk> slangasek ..
[16:07] <cyphermox> doko said it was the best code he had ever seen.
[16:07] <cyphermox> ;D
[16:07] <barry> :D
[16:07] <gaughen> ha!
[16:07] <infinity> It was bigly good?
[16:07] <barry> tremendous
[16:07] <cyphermox> so very bigly.
[16:07]  * sil2100 wants to see it now
[16:07] <slangasek>  * SRU processing, gardening of stable autopkgtest failures (lots more marked bad-test)
[16:07] <slangasek>   * deputy systemd now present in trusty; another SRU in progress to finish up the integration with the desktop
[16:07] <slangasek>  * productivity impacted this past week by unstable Internet connection (bad splice on an XDSL line after it was hit by a tree)
[16:07] <slangasek>  * lots of talk, but unfortunately little work done, around subiquity design
[16:07] <slangasek>  * alpha 2 milestone shepherding this week
[16:07] <slangasek>  * planning for in-person partner meetings in February
[16:07] <slangasek>  * rolling next round of stable images for ubuntu-core today
[16:07] <slangasek> I'm a big fan of the code, big fan
[16:07] <slangasek>  * MP review for apport retracer gdb sandbox magic (lp:~brian-murray/apport/sandbox-gdb)
[16:08] <slangasek> (done)
[16:08] <slangasek> caribou:
[16:08] <caribou> Bugfix:
[16:08] <caribou> qemu softlockup on Xenial
[16:08] <caribou>  - Identified the Quilt patch causing problem in ne2000 network driver.
[16:08] <caribou> tftp does not start
[16:08] <caribou>  - Working on replacement of [::]:69 to :69
[16:08] <caribou> LP: #1638695 - Running tests with different compiler options
[16:08] <caribou>    -fstack-protection-strong is the only obvious difference b/w 4.8 & 5.3
[16:08] <caribou> LP: #1654600 - investigating systemd ordering
[16:08] <caribou> Development:
[16:08] <cyphermox> tftp: [::]:69 to :69 -> what what?
[16:08] <caribou> LP: #103690 - IBM ppc64 - crash tool does not work on 4.8 kernels
[16:08] <caribou>  - SRU ongoing
[16:09] <caribou> misc:
[16:09] <caribou> meetings
[16:09] <caribou> ☑ Done
[16:09] <tdaitx> = OpenJDK Updates
[16:09] <tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8
[16:09] <tdaitx>   - Finished packaging Zesty, Yakkety, Xenial on Sunday (compensating for non-planned off time on Friday)
[16:09] <tdaitx>   - Repackaged on Monday to re-add patches that were not on Debian (thus Zesty)
[16:09] <tdaitx>   - Provided packages for Yakkety and Xenial to the Security Team
[16:09] <tdaitx> * OpenJDK 7
[16:09] <tdaitx>   - Continued working on the security update backports
[16:09] <tdaitx>   - Of 19 patches, only 2 to go
[16:09] <tdaitx> * Other
[16:09] <tdaitx>   - Taking the day out tomorrow to throw money away in Geneve, do tour in CERN, and hopefully a ski class on the nearby alps (self-learning otherwise).
[16:09] <infinity> caribou: I think you might be missing a digit in that bug ref. ;)
[16:09] <tdaitx> (done)
[16:09] <cyphermox> caribou: seems wrong, I've had tftpd work, not that it usually does much.
[16:09] <caribou> cyphermox: [::]:69 will fail if the NIC is not up
[16:09] <cyphermox> interesting.
[16:10] <caribou> infinity: yeah sorry
[16:10] <cyphermox> tdaitx: oh, so you can actually tour CERN? nice.
[16:10] <slangasek> caribou: qemu> I don't suppose you have any interest in the qemu SRU that's currently stalled in trusty-proposed, awaiting verification?
[16:10] <barry> tdaitx: can you get me a jar of bottom quarks?
[16:10] <tdaitx> cyphermox, not the LHC itself, just the ground floor
[16:10] <cyphermox> tdaitx: well, yeah, still nice.
[16:10] <caribou> slangasek: no but I can check
[16:11] <slangasek> caribou: it's bug #1587039 (thanks!)
[16:11] <cyphermox> barry: better pick the strange quarks, worth more.
[16:12] <tdaitx> barry, sure, don't think they will live long enough for me to bring them back thou
[16:12] <slangasek> tdaitx: is the accelerator ring open for tours right now?  it wasn't when we went during DebConf
[16:12] <slangasek> doko:
[16:12] <tdaitx> slangasek, nah, just the tourist parts on the ground floor
[16:13] <infinity> slangasek: It'll be open for tours after the alt-right turns it into a water park.
[16:13] <slangasek> tdaitx: instead, the highlight of our tour was Ian Jackson asking questions that suggested he was trying to replicate the experiment in his back yard
[16:13] <slangasek> infinity: doko is being quiet, go ahead?
[16:13] <infinity> * All point release, all the time:
[16:13] <infinity>   - Working with Timo on userspace stuff, and tons of reviews of same
[16:13] <infinity>   - Working with Andy on kernel stuff, and finalizing same
[16:13] <infinity>   - Working on finishing touches for cdimage and debian-installer
[16:13] <infinity>   - Lots of bits and bobs here and conversations here and there related to 16.04.2
[16:14] <infinity> (done)
[16:14] <sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination
[16:14] <sil2100> - Multiple SRU reviews
[16:14] <sil2100> - Discussions regarding OTA-15 for touch
[16:14] <sil2100> - Reading up on proper conffile handling
[16:14] <sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
[16:14] <sil2100>   * A lot of tests involving pyparted to check feature parity with existing tools
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Reading a lot of libparted code to figure out how it sets the partition type GUID
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Prepping a test implementation using pyparted and sgdisk for GUIDs
[16:14] <sil2100>   * Started work on proper implementation of GUID handling
[16:14] <sil2100> - Making sure that walinuxagent migrates to -updates
[16:14] <sil2100> - Performing image re-spins for kubuntu
[16:14] <sil2100> (done)
[16:14] <bdmurray> nvestigation into gdb crash from trusty with apport gdb sandbox change
[16:14] <bdmurray> fixed gdb crash from trusty with apport gdb sandbox change
[16:14] <bdmurray> modified to apport gdb sandbox branch to work with a permanent rootdir and interactive gdb session
[16:15] <bdmurray> generated zesty, yakkety, xenial, trusty armhf test-crashes on porter-armhf
[16:15] <bdmurray> switched to apport gdb sandbox branch in dev ops
[16:15] <bdmurray> reported and fixed apport bug LP: #1658188
[16:15] <bdmurray> reported and fixed apport bug LP: #1659122 re packages and permanent sandbox
[16:15] <bdmurray> reported debmirror bug LP: #1658203
[16:15] <bdmurray> reviewed bug patterns merge proposal
[16:15] <bdmurray> review of bad SRUs with sil2100
[16:15] <bdmurray> SRU verification of bug LP: #1646222
[16:15] <bdmurray> virtual sprint meeting
[16:15] <bdmurray> ✔ finished
[16:16] <slangasek> no xnox this week
[16:16] <slangasek> barry:
[16:16] <barry> more python 3.6 transition work; ppa now holding test rebuilds results: https://launchpad.net/~pythoneers/+archive/ubuntu/python-rebuilds/+packages
[16:16] <barry> ubuntu-image 0.14; start multivolume support, first step, -o/-O sanity; LP: #1655133; LP: #1641727
[16:16] <slangasek> bdmurray, sil2100: where does that leave us on the question of letting sil2100 loose on SRUs?
[16:16] <barry> debuntu: LP: #1623856; flufl enum 4.1.1 and 4.1.1-1; debian bug #852155; debian bug #852475;
[16:17] <barry> --done--
[16:17] <slangasek> great
[16:17] <slangasek> any questions?
[16:17] <sil2100> slangasek: bdmurray gave me green light on doing UNAPPROVED reviews, so I'm doing those normally now
[16:17] <slangasek> sil2100: awesome
[16:18] <sil2100> slangasek: for moving updates from -proposed I still didn't do any there (besides walinuxagent just now), so I'll still poke bdmurray before proceeding
[16:18] <sil2100> But those are less of time consuming for a mentor I suppose
[16:19] <slangasek> so we hope ;)
[16:19] <bdmurray> barry: Are you just working on the aptdaemon part of bug 1623856?
[16:19] <barry> bdmurray: yep
[16:19] <caribou> yeah, got a simple one : Is hardware enablement covered by the Feature Freeze ?
[16:19] <infinity> caribou: Ish.
[16:19] <barry> it's a pita because aptdaemon is basically abandoned and it's having problems passing its test suite.  it's already dropped from debian.  we should drop it from ubuntu :/
[16:20] <slangasek> caribou: well, the kernel freeze is much later, so... I think that's a qualified no
[16:20] <barry> (i got it passing locally, but its still ftbfs)
[16:20] <slangasek> barry: hmm, the replacement for aptdaemon is not integrated in Ubuntu
[16:20] <barry> slangasek: yeah :(
[16:20] <slangasek> and the desktop team has been punting that particular bit of work
[16:20] <caribou> infinity: arm64 enablement will hit Debian/Sid soon for kexec-tools so we'd avoid a delta if we wait a bit for that to come from Debian
[16:20] <infinity> caribou: For kernel work, see Steve's response, for userspace work, you should still ask the release team, but the default answer should be that HWE uploads are allowed unless they're obviously untested and disruptive.
[16:20] <barry> slangasek: yeah :( :(
[16:21] <infinity> caribou: In that specific case, I'm pretty sure it'll be fine to land it post-FF.
[16:21] <caribou> infinity: good thanks!
[16:25] <slangasek> alrighty
[16:25] <slangasek> anything else?
[16:25] <bdmurray> Anybody familiar with debmirror?
[16:25] <slangasek> only as a swear word
[16:31] <cyphermox> not really
[16:31] <infinity> bdmurray: Sort of, but I need to know what my response it committing me to.
[16:31] <cyphermox> happy to look?
[16:31] <infinity> s/it/is/
[16:31] <cyphermox> oh god, what have I done
[16:31] <bdmurray> its bug 1658203 and I haven't dug into it at all
[16:33] <bdmurray> I think that's it then
[16:34] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[16:34] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 26 16:34:58 2017 UTC.
[16:34] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-26-16.02.moin.txt
[16:35] <slangasek> thanks, all!
[16:35] <barry> thanks!
[16:35] <cyphermox> thanks


[03:26] <CJ_> hi
[04:12] <CJ_>  I am new to ubuntu. I have three old computers and decided to create a server in my house.


 @itnet7, I can take it over
 That would be cool, I'd still like to have access in case we do some events up this way again
 @itnet7, Of course
 I'm doing my first totally online 3d print.  http://print.adamoutler.com
 It was downloaded, then sliced on a raspberry pi running raspian and octoprint.
 Nice!
 https://print.adamoutler.com/webcam/?action=stream&1505783121305
 I'm printing a 3d printer model :D
 @KMyers I'm thinking of using the Guy Tux for Halloween and dressing up at work this year 😊
 @AdamOutler That is sweet!
 Getting there
 Maria is a Cat 5... How long did I fall asleep for?
 idk
 I enabled security on my printer site.  Now you can only view the webcam.
 Sounds like someone broke in lol
 Nope.  I'm just careful about my security.  I need it online but I need to prevent people from messing with it.
 Ahh
[02:31] <ahoneybun> <3 Telegram
 Waze, Android auto, or just plain maps?
 Android Auto with Waze
 Does it automatically integrate? Or must I configure?
 Pretty much automat
 Automatic
 Ok awesome
 Will try it tomorrow OMW to the airport
 if anyone have sometime to add some testimonials to my wiki for UCC: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AaronHoneycutt
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil
 here is what the UCC is
 @RazPi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm3Gp9KEs1w&app=desktop
 Qt5 demo
 @ahoneybun I'll add to your testimonials. It will have to be later today. What's the deadline?
 I think the ending of the vote is Sept 27 or something
 @KMyers @AdamOutler https://medium.com/code-for-america/is-apple-about-to-accidentally-kill-government-as-platform-f68eef001d37
 @ahoneybun Nice!
 Also I would like to announce I just made a makefile! It searches the project directory for headers and source files, builds it into object files, and then produces multiple exe files
 Cool
 I'm proud of it 😂
 I picked the right place to work:
 https://twitter.com/system76/status/910221996847484928
 @KMyers
 man something is up with my laptop's network
 anyone else taking forever to get to ubuntu servers for apt updatE?
 *update
 http://wsvn.com/news/us-world/jogger-nicknamed-mad-pooper-wanted-for-defecating-in-front-yards-of-colorado-homes/
 Apperantly Florida woman has flown north


[00:17] <greg_> greetings all
[00:17] <greg_> anybody home?
[00:18] <jk-> some are :)
[00:20] <greg_> hi  - quick question if anyone has a second, if I want to be more informed about future direction of the kernel and maybe even have my thoughts heard about it, where would I look/watch/join?
[00:21] <RAOF> greg_: The kernel mailing list would probably be the best place overall, but various subsystems have their own mailing lists.
[00:23] <RAOF> greg_: Note that the kernel mailing list is unlikely to be receptive to general thoughts not backed up by the possibility of a code submission.  Reviewing specific patches will likely be welcomed, though.
[00:24] <greg_> thanks RAOF.  When I first installed lucid server and discovered there was no x86 server kernel, but the package was essentially a pointer to the generic-pae kernel, it was suggested that the change was announced via some community mechanism that I now don't remember, shamefully, and no one objected.  I'd like to make sure I don't get that kind of surprise in the future without wading through every mail and patch....
[00:24] <greg_> the not remembering is the shameful part
[00:24] <greg_> :-)
[00:24] <RAOF> Ah.  You're more interested in the Ubuntu kernel configuration, then.
[00:25] <RAOF> In that case<EMAIL_ADDRESS>:)
[00:26] <crimsun> sometimes the info comes across sooner on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:26] <RAOF> For bigger changes, yeah.
[00:30] <greg_> ok, thanks very much RAOF and crimsun
[00:34] <Omega> < trap15> does anyone know the reason that usbfs was removed from the ubuntu kernels?
[00:35] <crimsun> other than it's deprecated, or at this point, obsolete?
[02:53] <jk-> RAOF: regarding https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-desktop-n-xorg-configuration-the-final-ten-percent, where would be the best place to put my device-tree proposal?
[02:58] <RAOF> jk-: If it's small, in the whiteboard.  If it's big or needs discussion, on the wiki.
[02:59] <jk-> ROAF, yep, was thinking the wiki is more suitable, somewhere like X/Dev/DeviceTreeDetection ?
[03:00] <RAOF> I was thinking of linking it to the blueprint.
[03:01] <jk-> X/Dev/hardware-desktop-n-xorg-configuration-the-final-ten-percent ?
[03:02] <RAOF> Ah.  I haven't set a URL for that blueprint yet.
[03:02] <jk-> yep :)
[03:03] <RAOF> In that case, X/Dev/DeviceTreeDetection sounds like a good name.
[03:03]  * jk- discovers X/Blueprints
[06:45] <jk-> apw: ping?
[13:13] <cking> apw, any sign of manjo today?
[13:19] <apw> cking, yep he is my left-hand man, wassup
[13:20] <cking> apw, just wondering if he made it through to London OK - I didn't seem him on IRC today
[13:23] <jjohansen> ah that explains apw's silence
[13:23] <cking> indeedy
[13:27]  * apw is always quiet, i am very very introverted
[13:30] <cking> cough, splutter,
[13:30] <cking> what?!
[13:31] <smb> Rather the most extrovert introvert we met
[13:31] <cking> if apw is introverted then I'm basically so introverted that one would class me as clinically dead
[15:03] <didrocks> hey guys
[15:04] <didrocks> since grub 1.99~2010112, with nvidia proprietary driver, I can't get a working X/gdm
[15:04] <didrocks> cjwatson pointed me to the framebuffer spec and I saw that gfxpayload=keep is activated
[15:05] <didrocks> I remember having issues with it in maverick, so it's maybe linked
[15:05] <didrocks> how can I help getting the relevant info to you?
[15:12] <lag> apw: Have all the delta patches been deleted now?
[15:16] <apw> lag ?
[15:17] <lag> apw: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KernelNattyUbuntuDeltaReview
[15:17] <lag> apw: I can't find my patches for looking
[15:20] <apw> lag in the wiki page or in the ubuntu delta ?
[15:22] <lag> I can find the entries on the Wiki
[15:22] <lag> But they're missing from git log etc
[15:27] <apw> lag, then perhaps they got dropped, are they in the dropped section below
[15:27]  * lag checks
[15:29] <lag> apw: They don't appear to be
[15:29] <lag> apw: Maybe they were dropped when ARM support was removed?
[15:29] <apw> lag hmmm, ok well mark them as missing and i'll try and find out
[15:30] <lag> Okay
[16:38] <JFo> <-lunch
[17:59] <JFo> back
[18:16] <cking> JFo, dude, how's it going?
[18:16] <JFo> cking, not too bad despite being overwhelmed by everything :)
[18:16] <JFo> cking, how about you?
[18:17] <cking> JFo, ditto :-)
[18:17] <JFo> heh
[18:18] <cking> Those bug reports keep in coming it. I understand it can be most overwhelming.
[18:18] <JFo> I'd be on mumble, but I stupidly forgot to charge my headset over the weekend
[18:18] <charlie-tca> JFo: We got a bug day tomorrow for you, right?
[18:18] <JFo> oh yes, the bug reports are never ending
[18:18] <JFo> charlie-tca, yessir
[18:18] <JFo> bugs with patches
[18:18] <charlie-tca> Great!
[18:18]  * JFo plans to remind folks via e-mail and blog today
[18:18] <charlie-tca> I can try to do some, at least.
[18:19] <JFo> excellent! I welcome anyone interested in helping
[18:19] <JFo> especially if that person is you charlie-tca :)
[18:19] <charlie-tca> thanks
[18:21] <cking> bjf, thanks for helping me out with the fwts over the weekend
[18:24] <bjf> cking, glad to, i'll do some further testing sometime this week i think
[18:25] <cking> bjf, cool, I'm still unable to trip that lucid bug, but I've not had much change since Saturday to reproduce.
[18:49] <_Groo_> hi/2 all
[18:49] <_Groo_> found a very ugly bug with reiserfs + ecryptfs in maverick/natty thats wasnt there in previous kernels
[18:49] <_Groo_> if my machine crashes via a hardware freeze (damn you nvidia), reiserfs runs its log file, so far so good
[18:49] <_Groo_> unfortunatelly ecryptfs is not yet mounted or a bug lies at that lvl, and reiserfs is writing the raw data in the ecryptfs inodes, borking all the data
[18:50] <_Groo_> or something like that for what i could test.
[18:50] <_Groo_> anyway when reiserfs kicks the log write, the file affected gets borked if you use a eccryptfs layer
[18:50] <_Groo_> anyone ever seen this behaviour before?
[18:51] <sconklin> back in a couple of hours
[19:03]  * tgardner --> lunch
[19:52] <ppetraki> quick question, is the -server kernel using CFS be default, and how do I find out which scheduler were using at runtime?
[19:59] <soren> ppetraki: /sys/block/<name of block device>/queue/scheduler
[20:01] <ppetraki> soren, I got that one, and it's deadline
[20:01] <ppetraki> soren, now what about processes? it a mess in proc somewhere
[20:01] <soren> ppetraki: What about processes?
[20:01] <ppetraki> soren, the config says http://pastebin.com/CQWTBS8q
[20:02] <ppetraki> soren, which appears to be deadline for process scheduling too
[20:04] <soren> ppetraki: I'm not sure what you're saying. CONFIG_DEFAULT_DEADLINE=y means the the deadline scheduler is the default i/o scheduler.
[20:07] <ppetraki> soren, there's one for io and one for process. I'm just trying to verify at runtime which one we're using
[20:07] <ppetraki> soren, the io one is easy enough as you pointed out
[20:07] <ppetraki> soren, with the CFS, am I using it? how do I find out. the docs aren't exactly clear
[20:08]  * soren is not aware that there's much of an option when it comes to process scheduling (other than preempt and HZ settings)
[20:08] <ppetraki> fair enough
[20:08] <ppetraki> thanks
[20:09] <soren> That is not to say that there isn't. I just don't know about it.
[20:09] <ppetraki> that's what I'm trying to determine
[20:41] <GrueMaster> Can someone tell me when linux-ti-omap4 2.6.35-903.19 will move from proposed to release?  I busted my butt to get it tested during US holiday, and need it for natty testing.
[20:43]  * jjohansen -> lunch
[20:45] <tgardner> GrueMaster, we have no plans to produce a natty ti-omap4 kernel. I thought Linaro was doing it?
[20:45] <GrueMaster> That is for omap, not omap4 as far as I know.
[20:46] <GrueMaster> And you guys asked me to test this kernel two weeks ago for Maverick.
[20:46] <tgardner> hmm, then I'm waiting on Bryan Wu as he is the omap4 dude.
[20:46] <GrueMaster> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-ti-omap4/+bug/673504
[20:46] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 673504 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) (and 1 other project) "Pandaboard chooses a new IP address on each boot (affects: 2) (heat: 192)" [High,Fix committed]
[20:46] <GrueMaster> That has all the info for 2.6.35-903.19
[20:47] <tgardner> GrueMaster, checking...
[20:47] <GrueMaster> Until then, natty is currently pulling 2.6.35-903.17
[20:48] <tgardner> GrueMaster, re: maverick, I think we're waiting on the SRU team to promote it to -updates
[20:50] <GrueMaster> Well, lets hope it gets released before the next security patch cycle.  I really don't want to keep spinning loops around these bugs because of flawed release processes.
[22:22] <jjohansen> bjf, sconklin: do the lts-backport kernels get security updates
[22:23] <sconklin> jjohansen: good question. rtg? ^^
[22:24] <jjohansen> sconklin: tgardner isn't around currently
[22:24] <bjf> jjohansen, i believe that they do though we have left the updating of them to rtg
[22:24] <bjf> jjohansen, it's on our list of thing to find out how exactly he is maintaining them
[22:25] <sconklin> jjohansen: I think that they do by virue of being backported from kernels which have security applied, but I don't think it's simultaneous with the security releases
[22:25] <jjohansen> right, thanks
[22:31] <sbeattie> bjf, sconklin, jjohansen: I think the question is, will the lts-backports get security updates that come through the lucid-security pocket?
[22:31] <sbeattie> or will they just be part of the periodic updates that roll into -proposed/-updates?
[22:31] <bjf> sbeattie, heh, that's a good question
[22:31] <sconklin> yeah, I agree. That's the question
[22:31] <sconklin> we don't have an answer