[00:24] <DarkwingDuck> ScottK: ping
[00:33] <ScottK> DarkwingDuck: pong
[00:33] <DarkwingDuck> ScottK: Do we do any user metrics with downloads or, have the ability to do that with Kubuntu?
[00:34] <ScottK> No.  Popcon is the only data I know about.
[00:35] <ScottK> And you have to be very careful not to assume it means more than it does.
[00:35] <DarkwingDuck> Popcon?
[00:36] <DarkwingDuck> Like Debian Popularity Contest?
[00:36]  * DarkwingDuck goes back to his thinking.
[00:37] <DarkwingDuck> popcon.ubuntu.com I found it... But, nothing for distro...
[00:37] <Daskreech> DarkwingDuck: do you mean ISOs or packages?
[00:37] <ScottK> Look at popcon for kubuntu-defaults
[00:38] <ScottK> err
[00:38] <ScottK> kubuntu-desktop
[00:38] <DarkwingDuck> Yes, for the ISOs
[00:38] <DarkwingDuck> Daskreech: ^^
[00:38] <Daskreech> cdimages should have some stats but I'd suspect that is highly skewed by torrent downloads
[00:39] <DarkwingDuck> Yeah, I was worried about that.
[00:39] <ScottK> Since a lot of it's done through the mirrors, we don't have anything like complete data.
[00:39]  * DarkwingDuck ponders
[00:39] <Daskreech> pull the torrentfor kubuntu and at any point there are something like 300 seeds so the number of downloads are likely quite high from that source
[00:40] <DarkwingDuck> Yeah, I'm trying to figure out another way to track the information.
[00:40] <Daskreech> What are you trying to get to?
[00:40] <DarkwingDuck> Regional demographics.
[00:40] <Daskreech> If it's accuracy then that's probably not going to happen
[00:40] <DarkwingDuck> It's a math thing that I'm going for.
[00:40] <Daskreech> the closest things I could think of are updates
[00:41] <DarkwingDuck> I'm just trying to gather more accuate data then "best guess"
[09:59] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/vW6WM.png as first start screen?
[09:59] <apachelogger> bulldog98_: shadeslayer: what do ye think?
[09:59] <apachelogger> mhhh my plasma exploded
[09:59] <apachelogger> awesome
[10:00] <apachelogger> or maybe just until initial disk cache has been obtained
[10:00] <apachelogger> which would get rid of the ugly start button
[10:46] <ryanakca> ScottK: Sysadmins agreed to flip the switch around release date.
[10:46] <ryanakca> ScottK: To be specific, they said "Hi, I'll set the ticket to remind us to update on release."
[10:52] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/xGFkq.png
[10:52] <apachelogger> :D
[10:52] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/TflUK.png
[10:58] <KRF> sweet
[10:59] <KRF> i used to like that look
[11:00] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/vt6Y9.png
[11:00] <apachelogger> it is like well sexy
[11:01] <KRF> mh, gwenview, not so much
[11:02] <KRF> the splitter handles had been quite ugly. now i recall that.
[11:03]  * yofel_ likes the login screen though
[11:28] <skfin> KDE 3 was ugly anyway
[11:34] <apachelogger> KRF: it least it didn't take 30000 years to start
[11:34] <apachelogger> actually this might all be nepomuk's fault to begin with
[11:37] <KRF> apachelogger: yeh, that's what i still miss somewhat nowadays :(
[11:40] <apachelogger> apachelogger says: back to the roots
[11:46] <dpm> hey all. I've just noticed that libqalculate has got some translations in the imports queue, and it seems to be because the package is not building a translation template. However, I've noticed that there are only very few translations, so I thought before filing a bug I'd ask. Is libqalculate a package that is being maintained and we want translations for?
[12:05] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: uh, why should i press start if i already launched the app
[12:08] <apachelogger> my point exactly
[12:15] <apachelogger> supremacy is my name
[12:20] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: what could be done is, show that page ( without the start button ) for half a second and then flip it
[12:20] <shadeslayer> i.e. using the flip animation thingy
[12:20] <shadeslayer> and show the schedule
[12:21] <shadeslayer> in that 0.5 secounds you could start fetching data and everything
[12:21] <shadeslayer> *seconds
[12:22] <shadeslayer> fun fact, i got a 10 year US visa
[12:22] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: nah, what is the point of showing it for half a second
[12:22] <apachelogger> I got an all better concept
[12:23] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: alright
[12:23] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: sort of a 'Loading' screen
[12:23] <apachelogger> yeah, but there is no loading once we have a cache
[12:23] <apachelogger> sec
[12:23] <shadeslayer> hmm
[12:27] <apachelogger> dpm: I do not think libqalculate is maintained by us
[12:28] <apachelogger> though it is used for some calculator stuff in KDE, not sure if that requires translations though
[12:29] <dpm> apachelogger, there are a few translations, though, but the fact that there were only 4 or 5 made me think it was suspicious. If it's not maintained by you guys, I'll just ignore the translations in the imports queue
[12:29] <apachelogger> well....
[12:29] <apachelogger> seems someone broke pot creation
[12:30] <dpm> you mean in general?
[12:30] <apachelogger> up until maverick there was the following in the rules
[12:30] <apachelogger> 	$(RM) intltool-extract intltool-merge intltool-update \
[12:30] <apachelogger> 		po-defs/.intltool-merge-cache
[12:30] <apachelogger> then it got synced from debian despite that, which probably is the reason there is no template
[12:31] <dpm> oh, I see, that makes sense re: why the translations end up in needs review. What would you suggest to do on this one?
[12:32] <apachelogger> not quite sure, we could re-add pot creation I suppose
[12:33]  * apachelogger is not quite sure why it got synced from debian
[12:33] <apachelogger> there was no sync request filed apparently
[12:34] <apachelogger> seem Riddell conducted the upload
[12:34] <apachelogger> Riddell: pingping
[12:34] <Riddell> what what?
[12:35] <apachelogger> Riddell: libqalculate was synced from debian in natty, however that broke pot creation
[12:35] <apachelogger> now we have translations lingering in the import queue without template
[12:36] <Riddell> so I should just add back the template creation?
[12:38] <apachelogger> would be best I suppose
[12:38] <apachelogger> unless you think it is not worthwhile having
[12:38] <dpm> if it makes sense to have those translations in Ubuntu, I think it would be best, too
[12:38] <apachelogger> there are only like 3 languages
[12:38] <dpm> yeah, that's the part that made me suspicious
[12:42] <Riddell> there's nothing in maverick to make translation templates
[12:46] <ScottK> ryanakca: Cool.
[12:50] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: http://people.ubuntu.com/~apachelogger/screencasts/uds-qml4.mp4
[12:50] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: for initial caching there is the startup screen, after that it is instant as we have a local cache ready to go
[12:51] <shadeslayer> ah cool
[12:51] <shadeslayer> apacheloggther: that spinny thing is a gif? or something else?
[12:52] <apachelogger> dunno
[12:52] <apachelogger> part of the nokia components
[12:52] <apachelogger> probably a qml animation
[12:53] <shadeslayer> ah ok
[12:53] <apachelogger> http://paste.ubuntu.com/702219/
[12:53] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: don't assume i understand QML :P
[12:54] <apachelogger> lol
[12:54] <apachelogger> it is a set of images loading into an image element animated using a numberanimation :P
[12:54] <shadeslayer> frankly, i find QML weird
[12:54] <shadeslayer> can't explain why, but i really find it weird to work with
[12:55] <apachelogger> probably you are not thinking declarative enough
[12:55] <shadeslayer> probably
[12:58] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: remember when people used to use this : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Nokia_3310_blue.jpg
[12:58] <shadeslayer> life was so much easier :P
[12:58] <apachelogger> why yes
[12:59] <shadeslayer> infact, i quite distinctly remember my first game of snake on that phone
[12:59] <apachelogger> why? did you score<PHONE_NUMBER>82?
[13:00] <shadeslayer> nope, just a measly 30
[13:00] <apachelogger> 30, ha!
[13:00] <apachelogger> I hope you are ashamed
[13:00] <shadeslayer> i remember it because it was something really cool at that time :P
[13:00] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: i got better at it!
[13:01] <apachelogger> are you saying snake is no cool nomore?
[13:01] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: noth with all the fancy graphics coming out
[13:01] <apachelogger> interesting fact... phones have regressed so far you cannot even play a game as simple as snake anymore
[13:01] <shadeslayer> hah, true
[13:05]  * apachelogger actually has a 3310 lying around here somewhere
[13:07] <shadeslayer> i still have my first 1100
[13:07] <apachelogger> can it run Qt?
[13:07] <shadeslayer> nope
[13:07] <apachelogger> why not?
[13:07] <shadeslayer> nokia didn't add support for Qt
[13:08]  * apachelogger waves fist
[13:08] <apachelogger> Qml debugging is enabled. Only use this in a safe environment!
[13:08] <apachelogger> zomg
[13:10] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: kgetsource doesn't show the progress when its downloading the tar
[13:12] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: also, we should use rsync now since ftpmaster supports rsync
[13:13] <apachelogger> why is that?
[13:14] <shadeslayer> because it's better, mainly because it's useful for people on slow connections like me :P
[13:14] <apachelogger> why is it better?
[13:15] <shadeslayer> because i've yet to see scp resuming copying of files
[13:15] <shadeslayer> and something is eating my xevents
[13:15] <shadeslayer> i can't click on anything anymore
[13:15] <apachelogger> qev to the rescue \o/
[13:16] <shadeslayer> keyboard works, i can move my mouse, no clicking
[13:17]  * apachelogger blames driver
[13:17]  * shadeslayer blames X
[13:18]  * apachelogger blames kde4
[13:18] <apachelogger> kubuntu 5.04 is way more usable really
[13:18] <apachelogger> also faster
[13:18] <apachelogger> also sexier
[13:18] <apachelogger> hrrrr
[13:18] <shadeslayer> agreed
[13:18] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/TflUK.png
[13:18] <apachelogger> try getting such a well balanced appearnce with plasma
[13:18] <apachelogger> IMPOSSIBLE
[13:19] <apachelogger> and how simple theming used to be
[13:19]  * apachelogger sighs
[13:19] <shadeslayer> trolllooll
[13:19] <shadeslayer> i can move the sidebars in quassel
[13:20] <shadeslayer> bbiab
[13:20] <apachelogger> I blame quassel then
[13:22] <shadeslayer> yay, everything works after restarting quassel
[13:22] <shadeslayer> not
[13:22] <shadeslayer> Sput: quassel is eating my xevents :O
[13:23] <shadeslayer> when i click the lineedit to chat in a IRC channel
[13:24] <apachelogger> http://www.developer.nokia.com/gen/videos_all.xhtml?id=19fe7953-cb03-4b95-abbd-585fdae1cb8b/Interview_LiveJournal_app
[13:24] <apachelogger> those finger nails are not touch enabled
[13:25] <apachelogger> send in the UX designers
[13:31] <shadeslayer> [ 5300.596010] chrome[2084]: segfault at ffffffff95784d68 ip 00007f7b8ffa0c08 sp 00007fff508cecb0 error 4 in libX11.so.6.3.0[7f7b8ff6b000+133000]
[13:31] <shadeslayer> thats ... no words for that
[13:35] <wendar> Quintasan_: I tried to call ProLine today, but they aren't answering
[13:36] <wendar> Quintasan_: I'll try email
[13:42] <apachelogger> wendar, Quintasan_: FWIW... if all else fails I can bring it from UDS to austria and ship it off to poland
[13:48] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: i had a krazy idea, try out Kubuntu 5.04 on a tablety arm device ( or whatever was the first release to have ARM packages ) :P
[14:11] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: I do not think we ever had KDE 3 on arm
[14:12] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: like i said, whatever was the first ARM release with KDE packages
[14:12] <apachelogger> but what would the point be?
[14:13] <shadeslayer> for the lulz
[14:13] <shadeslayer> fffffuuuuuuuuu
[14:13] <shadeslayer> i thought i was in a screen and did c-a c-c
[14:13] <shadeslayer> my kdepim build got terminated :/
[14:18] <apachelogger> awwww
[14:20] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: did you get anywhere with ios stuff?
[14:21] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: not yet, was looking at moc and stuff today and it'll take some time figuring out
[14:22] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: it'll take some time before figuring it out correctly
[14:22] <apachelogger> huh?
[14:22] <apachelogger> why is that?
[14:23] <apachelogger> from what I understood there is not much to figure
[14:23] <shadeslayer> because i have no idea how xcode works
[14:23] <apachelogger> just to moc ^^
[14:23] <shadeslayer> yeah, have to generate that too
[14:24] <shadeslayer> If thats it, i can do that at college tomorrow, didn't get any time today, but tomorrow's schedule is completely empty
[14:33] <shadeslayer> uhm
[14:33] <shadeslayer> ryanakca: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ARM looks weird
[14:34] <GirlyGirl> shadeslayer: ARM demand will go up a bit when windows 8 comes out
[14:34] <shadeslayer> huh?
[14:35] <shadeslayer> I thought it was already very high seeing the number of devices coming out
[14:35] <apachelogger> it can go up further? :O
[14:35] <shadeslayer> ^^
[14:35] <GirlyGirl> Windows 8 will have a arm build as well that's wy
[14:37] <apachelogger> so does windows phone 7 and yet it does not have considerable share of the produced units
[14:58] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kdepim] Rohan Garg * 178 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[14:59] <shadeslayer> i pity the builder which has to build kdepim
[15:04] <BarkingFish> why, shadeslayer?
[15:04] <BarkingFish> is it a problematic build, or just inordinately huge?
[15:04] <shadeslayer> BarkingFish: latter
[15:04] <shadeslayer> my i7 core peaked at 86 oC and shut down X
[15:05] <BarkingFish> holy [censored for the good of mankind]ing hell.  My poor P4 Xeon would catch fire then.
[15:05] <shadeslayer> hahah :D
[15:06]  * BarkingFish has the temptation to pull the lp source and have a go...
[15:06] <shadeslayer> i find it weird that the i7 has a very low threshhold
[15:07] <shadeslayer> my core2duo has a threshold of 100oC
[15:07] <shadeslayer> https://gist.github.com/1261894 :P
[15:08] <BarkingFish> the i7 shouldn't go to thermal shutdown until 100°C either, shadeslayer, according to google
[15:08] <shadeslayer> Core 0:         +51.0°C  (high = +86.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
[15:08] <apachelogger> BarkingFish: it definitely goes into shutdown at 100
[15:09] <apachelogger> only some models have a critical thres of 110
[15:09] <apachelogger> IIRC that is :P
[15:09] <shadeslayer> yup, it clocks down everything at 86oC
[15:09] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: why would that shutdown X though?
[15:09] <shadeslayer> Core 0:       +82.0°C  (high = +105.0°C, crit = +105.0°C)
[15:09] <shadeslayer> thats on my core2duo ^^
[15:10] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: cores couldn't handle X at 500 MHz probably :P
[15:10] <maco> shadeslayer: last time i tried one of those giant kde builds, my system ran out of disk space and killed the build
[15:10] <shadeslayer> haha :D
[15:10] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: that is weird, X should cause almost no CPU load
[15:10] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: huh, well, it's either X or kded
[15:11] <apachelogger> more likely latter :P
[15:11] <apachelogger> oh
[15:11] <apachelogger> my
[15:11] <apachelogger> good
[15:11] <apachelogger> socks
[15:11]  * apachelogger has a threading issue
[15:11] <shadeslayer> because my X restarts and i land up in kdm
[15:11]  * apachelogger never has threading issues
[15:11]  * apachelogger doesn't like this one bit
[15:11] <apachelogger> hum
[15:12] <apachelogger> my secondary eventloop does not want to terminate
[15:12] <apachelogger> oddness
[15:12] <shadeslayer> kill it with fire and semaphores ? :P
[15:12] <shadeslayer> or starve it to death
[15:12] <apachelogger> ah
[15:12] <apachelogger> I think it is being smart
[15:14] <shadeslayer> I never quite figured out the use of a 'Hyper Terminal' on a windows machine till today
[15:14] <apachelogger> what is that?
[15:14] <shadeslayer> interfacing serially via RS232 :P
[15:15] <shadeslayer> we interfaced with a 8051 microcontroller today
[15:15] <apachelogger> why would you do that on windows?
[15:15] <shadeslayer> because thats what the computers in the lab run
[15:15]  * apachelogger begins to think that threading a qnetworkmanager is a bad idea
[15:16] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: trying to optimize downloads are we now ? :P
[15:16] <apachelogger> no
[15:16] <apachelogger> that is one of the first things the uds app had
[15:17] <shadeslayer> oh, so why do you thread qnm?
[15:17] <apachelogger> so that we do not block the UI
[15:17] <shadeslayer> ah ok
[15:17] <apachelogger> it would probably not make much difference to hold the qnam in the main event loop and just do parsing et al in the thread
[15:18] <shadeslayer> maco: i usually run out of space when i build stuff in tmpfs, but that's happened only once or twice with kde4libs or some giant package
[15:19] <shadeslayer> and even thats going to change after i get myself some moar RAM
[15:19] <apachelogger> what is interesting though is that apparenlty I do not get a signal when the QNAM gets destroyed or something
[15:19] <shadeslayer> 8 GB's of moar RAM that is
[15:19] <apachelogger> meaning I cannot even abort the event loop
[15:19] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: you could emit one after destroying it
[15:20] <maco> shadeslayer: this is why i upgraded to a 500gb hdd :P
[15:20] <apachelogger> I am not destorying it
[15:20] <shadeslayer> hehehe :)
[15:20] <skfin> 8 GB's of RAM might be just enought to run nepomuk and strigi
[15:20] <apachelogger> this all happens at app quit
[15:20] <BarkingFish> sorry about that, shadeslayer
[15:20] <BarkingFish> bloody wifi is about as much use as the last ham sandwich at a jewish buffet :P
[15:20] <apachelogger> so the main event loop is stuck waiting for the threadpool to finish, but it cannot because the eventloop inside is blocked until the qnam returns
[15:20] <shadeslayer> skfin: it's actually more about how big a file is in your home dir
[15:21] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: aah
[15:21] <shadeslayer> BarkingFish: lol
[15:21]  * apachelogger emits ponders
[15:21] <apachelogger> oh
[15:21] <shadeslayer> skfin: for eg. nepomuk crashed when trying to index a ubuntu ISO, and spawned new child processes while indexing the ISO
[15:21] <apachelogger> I cannot
[15:21]  * apachelogger has no ponders
[15:21] <apachelogger> good lawd
[15:21] <BarkingFish> anyway, as I said to you before I got so rudely disconnected by my wifi stick being a sod, the i7 series don't usually go into Thermal shutdown until 100°c either - the 2600K has a thermal warning limit of 90°c
[15:22] <apachelogger> http://paste.ubuntu.com/702295/
[15:22] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: y u not add ponders?
[15:22] <yofel> shadeslayer: actually, I pity the builder that builds workspace more
[15:22] <yofel> after all we build that twice
[15:22] <shadeslayer> lol
[15:22] <skfin> shadeslayer: U MAD?
[15:22] <shadeslayer> true that
[15:22] <shadeslayer> skfin: hahaha :D ... it actually consumed all 8 cores before i noticed
[15:23] <shadeslayer> and then i turned indexing off
[15:23] <apachelogger> nepomuk++
[15:23] <apachelogger> strigi++
[15:23] <yofel> shadeslayer: and you can add my poor server to that, for some reason I did the workspace build on it and it was hopelessly swapping at the end ...
[15:23] <skfin> Thats more like it, nepomuk!
[15:23] <apachelogger> there is nothing like good software
[15:23] <BarkingFish> i might go again, i'm pulling kdepim's source to have a shot at seeing if I can destroy my PC!
[15:23] <yofel> shouldn't be too hard
[15:24] <yofel> ~karma nepomuk
[15:24] <kubotu> karma for nepomuk: 1
[15:24] <skfin> apachelogger: Yea, either the code is crap or the user experience is crap.  User experience is great and I guess that the code can't be crap since there aren't any
[15:26] <shadeslayer> skfin: so i guess we can hope for a better experience in 4.8 or KDE 5
[15:26] <skfin> shadeslayer: Uhmm, yes. I really hope so :)
[15:27] <skfin> Nepomuk, strigi and akonadi would be awesome without those performance issues
[15:27] <shadeslayer> skfin: have you see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d41bmTSogA4
[15:27] <skfin> And with less memory hogging
[15:27] <skfin> And cpu time hogging
[15:27] <apachelogger> QThread: Destroyed while thread is still running
[15:27] <apachelogger> hrrhrr
[15:27] <skfin> And less cpu time hogging*
[15:27] <skfin> And less disk i/o hogging
[15:28] <skfin> shadeslayer: UHHH! That's AWEESOOOOOMEEEEEEEEEE
[15:28] <shadeslayer> :D
[15:28] <shadeslayer> skfin: now add that to dolphin's search or to krunner
[15:28] <shadeslayer> BOOM
[15:29] <shadeslayer> skfin: and you know what .... it's just indexing subtitles :D
[15:29] <skfin> Blah
[15:29] <apachelogger> just what I need
[15:29] <apachelogger> search your prn
[15:29] <skfin> Not so awsome :/
[15:29] <shadeslayer> hahaha
[15:29] <apachelogger> "uhh" "ahh" "ewwwww"
[15:29] <apachelogger> that will result in kinky prn
[15:29] <apachelogger> \o/
[15:29] <skfin> apachelogger's prn day?
[15:30] <apachelogger> every day is prn day
[15:30] <shadeslayer>   Uploading kdepim_4.7.2-0ubuntu1~ppa1_source.changes: 5k/6k550 Changes file must be signed with a valid GPG signature: Verification failed 3 times: ['General error', 'General error', 'General error'] : Permission denied.
[15:30] <shadeslayer> what
[15:30] <skfin> ah, that's why kubuntu has so much packaging issues?
[15:30]  * skfin hides.
[15:31] <shadeslayer> they're not issues, they're features
[15:31] <skfin> Ah, yes
[15:31] <shadeslayer> ;)
[15:31] <yofel> that error is actually a launchpad feature
[15:32] <skfin> One at #kubuntu-fi had some issues with oneiric installion, fresh installion + installing upgrades = libc disappeared somehow
[15:32] <skfin> That was strange
[15:32] <shadeslayer> yofel: i guess thats the first feature i've seen in a while then :P
[15:32]  * yofel tries to remove libc6
[15:32]  * shadeslayer hides
[15:32] <skfin> And neither apt or dpkg logs didnt help, only reference to libc was when dpkg removed it. There was no clear reason why
[15:33] <shadeslayer> To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'
[15:33] <shadeslayer> whoa
[15:33] <cyphermox> ScottK: after further checking, I can't see what I could change to help with ad-hoc on Kubuntu. everything seems in order, since you don't actual have a way to immediately defaut to the settings for ad-hoc/shared internet connection, one would just create a connection manually (and ipv6 already defaults to Disabled there)
[15:33] <yofel> skfin: considering aptitude marks 175 packages as broken if I remove libc6 - that should've been somewhat impossible...
[15:33] <ScottK> cyphermox: OK.  Thanks for investigating.
[15:34] <skfin> yofel: Yes, and it didnt really say that why it did remove it
[15:34] <shadeslayer> same with apt, it wants me to explicitly confirm removing libc6
[15:34] <yofel> funny
[15:34] <skfin> And it didnt remove any other packages, just libc6
[15:34] <yofel> now I would like to know though why libc6 isn't 'essential'
[15:34] <cyphermox> np. afaik it's all good, I even tested on a livecd and successfully created a WPA ad-hoc network, which used to not work.
[15:35] <skfin> http://pastebin.com/RUdRJEz4
[15:35] <yofel> hm, it's actually required
[15:35] <skfin> http://pastebin.com/sgQH4xST
[15:35] <skfin> http://pastebin.com/V5ydX4SP
[15:36] <shadeslayer> ah
[15:36] <yofel> shadeslayer: uh... did you forget the launchapd feature that makes bzr-git behave differently on launchpad than it behaves on jelmer's  PC?
[15:36] <shadeslayer> yofel: hah, thats feature 0 then :P
[15:36] <yofel> ^^
[15:36] <shadeslayer> skfin: i *think* its because of multiarch
[15:36] <shadeslayer> Remove: libc-bin:amd64 (2.13-20ubuntu2)
[15:36] <skfin> Yes?
[15:37] <skfin> Well it was amd64 installion
[15:37] <apachelogger> issue fixed \o/
[15:37] <shadeslayer> and in install :  libc-bin:i386
[15:37] <yofel> oh yeah, aptitude *does* want to remove libc6 if you have conflicts and multiarch enabled
[15:37] <shadeslayer> ^^
[15:37] <yofel> that should only be aptitude by now though
[15:37] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: the code just got loads more ugly
[15:37] <shadeslayer> to the bug mobile
[15:37] <GirlyGirl> So that I don't waste bandwidth, is it worth updating to 4.7.1 or waiting for 4.7.2?
[15:37] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: :S
[15:38] <skfin> yofel: There is no aptitude on that system though...
[15:38] <shadeslayer> GirlyGirl: uh, kind of hard to answer that question, is there a particular bug that is annoying you right now and you know is fixed in 4.7.1
[15:38] <yofel> skfin: what did he use actually?
[15:38] <skfin> *she* used apt-get as the logs say
[15:38] <yofel> sry
[15:38] <skfin> Logs dont say the command
[15:38] <GirlyGirl> shadeslayer: I don't know whether it is fixed but there is one
[15:38] <shadeslayer> Commandline: apt-get install chromium-browser
[15:39] <shadeslayer> ^^ looks like she tried to install chromium-browser
[15:39] <shadeslayer> GirlyGirl: do you have the bug id?
[15:39] <shadeslayer> ah wait, thats a different thing
[15:39] <skfin> shadeslayer: see that there is log close after installing chroimium-browser
[15:40] <shadeslayer> skfin: yofel looks like she tried to upgrade imho
[15:40] <skfin> Yea.
[15:40] <GirlyGirl> shadeslayer: Never even reported it but plasma crashes every now and then and when it restarts the panel colours are messed up a bit
[15:40] <skfin> But why it did remove libc-bin:amd64 is a myster
[15:40] <skfin> y
[15:40] <skfin> for me
[15:40] <shadeslayer> GirlyGirl: hmm ... can't really say without a bug id, you're on oneiric right?
[15:41] <GirlyGirl> shadeslayer: One one machine yes on others no
[15:41] <yofel> for me too, unless someone retries that exact situation with apt Debug::pkgProblemResolver set to yes
[15:42] <shadeslayer> GirlyGirl: then for oneiric, i would say that you can wait till 4.7.2 gets packaged, 4.7.2 for natty is going to take some time
[15:46] <yofel> btw. just curious: as we seem to be notoriously bad at remembering to upload kubuntu-dev-tools. Does someone have an idea where we could put a daily build of that?
[15:46] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: https://projects.developer.nokia.com/uds/browser/src/RemoteManager.cpp#L105
[15:46] <apachelogger> you know
[15:47] <apachelogger> I really thin someone should refactor my remotemanager
[15:47] <apachelogger> because even I get the feeling that it is somewhat unreadable
[15:51] <bulldog98_> apachelogger: looks nice
[15:51] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kanagram] Rohan Garg * 12 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[15:51] <shadeslayer> ok something that i've not understood till this date
[15:51] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: whats the difference between : #include <QtCore/QDebug> and #include <QDebug>
[15:52] <shadeslayer> is it just a more verbose way of including headers?
[15:52] <apachelogger> nah
[15:53] <apachelogger> it allows compilation with restrictive include paths
[15:53] <apachelogger> thus speeding up building
[15:53] <apachelogger> i.e. one -I/usr/include/qt4 suffices to build everything
[15:53] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Kdelibs_Coding_Style#Qt_Includes
[15:54] <KRF> apachelogger: eh, i wouldnt say this speeds up building
[15:54] <shadeslayer> interesting
[15:54] <apachelogger> KRF: if yer compiler has to run through a bazillion include paths before getting to the one that contains QDebug it certainly does
[15:55] <KRF> not using it adds a minimum cost of searching the right include file through some subdirectories (which is cached anyway)
[15:55] <KRF> not sure you'll notice it at all :)
[15:55] <apachelogger> it all depends on the size of the project of course :P
[15:59]  * apachelogger really wonders how nokia imagines that one makes a listdelegate's text elide without hacking the delegate code itself -.-
[16:03] <shadeslayer> hah, i discovered a typo in a RFC
[16:03] <apachelogger> happens more often than one would think
[16:03] <shadeslayer> uh, wth, nonce is a word O_O
[16:04] <yofel> probably from the same weird dialect that oneiric is from
[16:04] <shadeslayer> "There is no challenge or nonce used."
[16:04] <apachelogger> oi
[16:04] <apachelogger> don't mock the oneiric
[16:05] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: sure it is
[16:05] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kwordquiz] Rohan Garg * 9 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[16:14] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kdeplasma-addons] Philip Muškovac * 171 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[16:20] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/pykde4] Jonathan Kolberg * 13 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[16:39] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/ksnapshot] Rohan Garg * 13 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[16:48] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/cantor] Jonathan Kolberg * 11 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:00] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/konsole] Rohan Garg * 14 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:10] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kgamma] Jonathan Kolberg * 8 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:13] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kcolorchooser] Philip Muškovac * 9 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:14] <bulldog98> yofel, shadeslayer do we want to do a challange? Who can package most packages in short time :)
[17:15] <shadeslayer> bulldog98: no!!! that might lead to bad packaging
[17:16] <yofel> we're already fast enough IMO
[17:16] <bulldog98> shadeslayer: ok rule #1 packaging must be good :)
[17:16] <shadeslayer> yup
[17:16] <bulldog98> yofel: that was what I thought, too :)
[17:16] <yofel> + we would all need the same system
[17:16] <shadeslayer> ^^
[17:16] <yofel> and shadeslayer has no eeePC :P
[17:17] <bulldog98> yofel: ok that’s a point for you :)
[17:17] <bulldog98> !cookies yofel
[17:17] <yofel> kubotu: order cookies for yofel
[17:17]  * kubotu slides a whole bunch of world's finest cookies down the bar to yofel.
[17:17] <yofel> :)
[17:17] <shadeslayer> :P
[17:18] <bulldog98> ~cookies yofel
[17:18] <yofel> oh, lintian learned about dep-5
[17:18] <yofel> W: kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer source: missing-license-paragraph-in-dep5-copyright paragraph 4 lgpl-2+
[17:18] <bulldog98> yofel: oha that sounds nice :)
[17:18] <shadeslayer> then again, my internet connection is the bottleneck
[17:18] <shadeslayer> sweet
[17:19] <bulldog98> shadeslayer: don’t complain about yours :P
[17:19] <shadeslayer> lol
[17:19] <yofel> ah, it's lgpl-2+, but the full license is marked as lgpl-2
[17:19] <bambee> evening
[17:20] <bulldog98> yofel: licensing is an nice thing
[17:22] <yofel> ~karma bulldog98
[17:22] <kubotu> bulldog98 has neutral karma
[17:22] <yofel> that sounds wrong
[17:22] <yofel> bulldog98++
[17:22] <bulldog98> whoho
[17:23] <yofel> ~karma bulldog98
[17:23] <kubotu> karma for bulldog98: 1
[17:23]  * bulldog98 dances a karma gain dance
[17:23] <yofel> better ^^
[17:23] <DarkwingDuck> yay. Translating docs
[17:24] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kgeography] Jonathan Kolberg * 10 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:26]  * bulldog98 has written a completion for signing packages on yofel’s computer
[17:26] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: ping
[17:26] <yofel> heh
[17:26] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/khangman] Jonathan Kolberg * 10 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:27] <bulldog98> Riddell: ping
[17:27] <DarkwingDuck> apachelogger: ping
[17:27] <yofel> hm...
[17:27] <yofel> kdegraphics-thumnailers has:
[17:27] <yofel> W: kdegraphics-thumbnailers source: missing-field-in-dep5-copyright paragraph 2 copyright
[17:27] <yofel> but I can't see anything wrong:  http://paste.kde.org/130207
[17:31] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/libksane] Rohan Garg * 14 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:33] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer] Philip Muškovac * 19 * debian/ (changelog control copyright) * New upstream release * debian/copyright: It's lgpl-2+, not lgpl-2
[17:35] <Quintasan_> wendar: You might went to try this number tomorrow: 664999904 . They are open to 16:00 UTC.
[17:35] <shadeslayer> so, who uses bzr builddeb --builder pdebuild here?
[17:35] <Quintasan> shadeslayer: use bzr builddeb -S and then pbuilder :P
[17:36] <bulldog98> Quintasan: don’t use builddeb at all?
[17:36]  * shadeslayer looks
[17:37] <Quintasan> bulldog98: Why? It's not awesome but it works
[17:37] <bulldog98> should one modify the packaging copyright?
[17:37] <shadeslayer> Quintasan: i actually want a way to generate the changes files for the PPA
[17:37] <shadeslayer> with ~ppa1 in the version
[17:37] <bulldog98> Quintasan: I’ll try
[17:37] <Quintasan> bzr builddeb -S then
[17:37] <Quintasan> or bzr-buildpackage -S
[17:38] <Quintasan> bulldog98: Well, is something has changed then yes
[17:38] <bulldog98> Quintasan: only trivial things, so no update
[17:39] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/ksaneplugin] Rohan Garg * 19 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:39] <shadeslayer> ok, last package for the night
[17:40] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kdegraphics-thumbnailers] Philip Muškovac * 12 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:40] <Quintasan> well, adding additional copyright holders would be an acceptable change
[17:42] <bulldog98> Quintasan: so should I add me as an copyright holder on the debian/* copyright in every package I packaged?
[17:42] <yofel> not really, that falls under the Kubuntu Developers (C) - probably the only place we do copyright assignment
[17:45] <bulldog98> yofel: maybe someone should go through the bzr braches and check for that, then I could add an part in kgetsource that updates that section, if the year is to old.
[17:45] <yofel> true, would be nice to have that automated for next year, our current copyrights should be ~right I think
[17:47] <bulldog98> yofel: saw one that was owned by apachelogger
[17:47] <bulldog98> +1
[17:48] <bulldog98> +1
[17:48] <apachelogger> yofel: copyright assignment?
[17:53] <shadeslayer> huh, i see a couple of rfc's on ftpmaster
[17:53] <shadeslayer> i wonder who downloaded those
[17:55] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kig] Jonathan Kolberg * 12 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[17:55] <yofel> apachelogger: wasn't not marking your work as owned by you but someone else copyright assignment?
[17:55] <yofel> bulldog98: not as xsbc-original-maintainer?
[17:56] <apachelogger> yofel: why yes, and how would you do that in our context and whom would it be assigned to?
[17:56] <bulldog98> yofel: no in the copyright file (check for eg. khangman
[17:56] <yofel> apachelogger: I was just saying it in the context that out packaging is owned by 'Kubuntu Developers'
[17:56] <apachelogger> oh that thing again
[17:56] <apachelogger> so kubuntu developers became a legal entity yet?
[17:56] <ScottK> Leaving aside the question of it there's even enough originality in packaging to merit copyright of any kind ...
[17:57] <ScottK> apachelogger: Did you see the phonon/pulse email on kubuntu-devel?
[17:57] <yofel> +1
[17:57] <ScottK> Would you please answer it?
[17:57] <yofel> that's why I don't really care
[17:57]  * apachelogger could also make a release but doesnt really feel like it
[17:58] <ScottK> OK.  Could you point me at the needed commits?
[17:59] <apachelogger> ScottK: there is none yet, see what Dan wrote
[17:59] <apachelogger> PA should be fixed, not phonon
[18:01] <yofel> bulldog98: marking kimono as not-to-be-done because it's not in the archive is wrong - it's missing qyoto, but that is free for everyone that wants to do it
[18:02] <bulldog98> yofel: ok do you want to chage that?
[18:02] <bulldog98> s/chage/change/
[18:02] <kubotu> bulldog98 meant: "yofel: ok do you want to change that?"
[18:02] <yofel> I'll do it
[18:03]  * yofel wonders if dirk went on vacation
[18:06] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kiten] Jonathan Kolberg * 18 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[18:07] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kmplot] Philip Muškovac * 11 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[18:08] <ScottK> apachelogger: OK.  Thanks.
[18:10] <bulldog98> yofel: can you find kletters on ftpmaster?
[18:11] <yofel> ftpubuntu@ftpmaster:~/stable/4.7.2/src$ ls -lha klettres-4.7.2.tar.bz2
[18:11] <yofel> -rw-r--r-- 1 ftpadmin packager 2.7M Oct  2 15:00 klettres-4.7.2.tar.bz2
[18:12] <yofel> note the klettREs
[18:12] <ScottK> whoever did kdeadmin, please pull from bzr.  I just updated 4.7.1 for oneiric and so you'll need that change.
[18:12] <yofel> I did I think, updating
[18:12] <ScottK> Thanks.
[18:13] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kolourpaint] Philip Muškovac * 13 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[18:14] <txwikinger> eep... moun-update froze
[18:17] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kross-interpreters] Philip Muškovac * 6 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[18:20] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kde-baseapps] Philip Muškovac * 194 * debian/changelog merge changelog entries
[18:31] <txwikinger><PHONE_NUMBER>621SyL2id6N
[18:33] <yofel> bulldog98: don't edit a wiki while I'm editing it please...
[18:33] <bulldog98> yofel: oh sorry
[18:34] <bulldog98> didn’t saw you editing
[18:34] <yofel> I think we both opened the editor pretty much at the same time
[18:34] <yofel> as I opened it as soon as I saw you being done with the edit before
[18:45] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/step] Philip Muškovac * 12 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[18:48] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kstars] Rohan Garg * 8 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[18:49] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/rocs] Philip Muškovac * 14 * debian/ (changelog control copyright) * New upstream release * debian/copyright: - Fix licensing text for LGPL-2
[18:53] <shadeslayer> k i'm off to sleep
[18:53] <shadeslayer> night
[18:53] <yofel> hm...
[18:53] <bulldog98> shadeslayer: night
[18:54] <bulldog98> shadeslayer: night
[18:54] <yofel> reading the changelog for the debian-policy 3.9.2 again, some of our packages claim to be 3.9.2 conformant while not being so (If I understand this right)
[18:54] <yofel> shadeslayer: gn
[18:55] <yofel> problem is: * Policy: Require human Maintainer or Uploader, clarify Maintainer
[18:55] <ScottK> Ubuntu doesn't use that part of policy.
[18:56] <ScottK> It should probably be clarified in ubuntu-policy.
[18:56] <yofel> well, the ubuntu-policy is at 3.8.2
[18:56] <ScottK> So when it's updated, that should be clarified.  I'd suggest file a bug against it.
[18:56] <yofel> k
[18:58] <yofel> ScottK: as a matter of fact, it's already filed: bug 817264
[18:58] <ScottK> yofel: Right.  I was thinking something specific to the human maintainer thing.
[18:58] <bulldog98> nice in parley the copyright of every python file is missing
[18:58] <ScottK> how ironic is it that "Linux for Human Beings" doesn't require a human maintainer.
[19:00] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/svgpart] Philip Muškovac * 25 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[19:00] <bulldog98> fregl: parley python files miss a copyright note
[19:01] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kruler] Jonathan Kolberg * 13 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[19:02] <yofel> oh, dirk woke up
[19:03] <yofel> now let's see what his scripts meshed together this time ^^
[19:12] <yofel> oddly enough, kdeutils is fine...
[19:14] <yofel> Riddell: where was that 'make bzr ci behave like debcommit' code again?
[19:14] <yofel> I can't commit kdeutils
[19:15] <yofel> well, not without -m that is
[19:16] <bulldog98> Riddell: could you sync the desktopsummit pic with the pad?
[19:16] <yofel> guess -m will have to do for now
[19:17] <CIA-130> [lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kdeutils] Philip Muškovac * 133 * debian/ (changelog control) New upstream release
[19:20] <bulldog98> yofel: how to fix the copyright issues in parley and kturtle?
[19:21] <yofel> ask ScottK, if it's upstream issues, get it fixed upstream and repackage
[19:21] <bulldog98> yofel: upstream
[19:21] <yofel> I'm not sure if a missing copyright note is that much of an issue though
[19:21] <bulldog98> ScottK: ? ^
[19:22] <ScottK> It should be fixed.
[19:22] <ScottK> If it's just a missing note on one file and it doesn't add a different license, I'd just fix it upstream and not sweat it here.
[19:23] <bulldog98> ScottK: it about half of the files in the tar
[19:23] <ScottK> Does it change the licenses?
[19:24] <bulldog98> there is simply no license claimed in there, so nobody knows if it’s GPL or what
[19:24] <ScottK> Hmmm.
[19:24] <ScottK> What package?
[19:24] <bulldog98> parley and kturtle
[19:24] <ScottK> What's an example file?
[19:24] <bulldog98> parley all python files, kturtle all ruby ones
[19:29]  * bulldog98 goes to bed tomorrow is university again
[19:31] <apachelogger> it is half past nine! :O
[19:46] <apachelogger> ScottK: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/pulseaudio/pulseaudio/commit/src/pulse/version.h.in?id=7563e0bbb54fbac54e77f3a62d9761a70f3a559c
[20:00] <allee> I work on digikam 2.2.0 pkgs.  Is there a page describing/sketching the workflow and tools currently used.  I assume you guys don't start with apt-cache showsrc to find vcs-bzr and checkout
[20:02] <Riddell> yofel: bzr-builddeb plugin should do that
[20:02] <Riddell> DarkwingDuck: you pung?
[20:03] <yofel> Riddell: translate "can't commit" into: bzr crashes with bug 867808
[20:04] <yofel> but without an editor -m is the only way to remove my name from the commit message contents
[20:06] <yofel> allee: we have some script in lp:kubuntu-dev-tools bin/ that help, for example 'kbzr co digikam'
[20:06] <yofel> *some scripts
[20:07] <yofel> also, the Vcs branch is always 'lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/<package>' so once you know it you don't need to look it up
[20:08] <allee> yofel: thx, I'll check them while digikam builds here.
[20:13] <yofel> ryanakca: how does one reach https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Home?action=userprefs&sub=prefs from the new wiki?
[20:14] <yofel> ryanakca: the top bar of the old wiki theme had a prefrences entry, the new one doesn't
[20:20] <Riddell> bulldog98: updated
[20:28] <allee> yofel: some more pkgs hints?  Pkgs libkvkontakte-data in 2.1.1 had only .mo file in it.  In 2.2.0 they don't exist.  So better to remove the pkgs or create an empty pkg as 2.2.1 may contain translations again and in this case we avoid NEW pkg queue?
[20:29] <yofel> no translations? - if the package is empty, comment it out in the control file
[20:31] <allee> yofel: dh_install complained (debuild -nc) and find * -iname libkvkon*.mo found nothing too.  Okay so I comment out
[20:31] <yofel> yep
[20:34] <allee> yofel: as it's not clear if another 2.1.1 revision or 2.2.0 is next for oneiric or 'p' release,   I don't want to bzr pushto kubuntu-packagers' digikam repo.  Where's best to 'store' the 2.2.0 changes so other do find it an don't do work a second time?
[20:36] <yofel> I would still push to bzr, for P it defenitely makes sense to use 2.2.0, and if one needs to SRU 2.1.1 for oneiric-updates we don't use the main packaging branch for that
[20:37] <allee> yofel: ok
[21:03]  * yofel is off to bed - good night
[21:14] <ScottK> allee: Mark it UNRELEASED in debian/changelog.
[21:17] <allee> ScottK: ok.
[21:18] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: sorry, you there now?
[21:19] <Riddell> DarkwingDuck: here I am
[21:20] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: For the updated kubuntu-docs with translations... Do I just package it up and send it to you again?
[21:21] <Riddell> yes, although not by e-mail preferably
[21:21] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: What is the recommened way to get it to you?
[21:22] <Riddell> put it on a web server?
[21:22] <DarkwingDuck> ahhh, then give you the link?
[21:22] <Riddell> yes
[21:22] <DarkwingDuck> Ahhh, kk. My people.ubuntu.com accound just became useful.
[21:23] <DarkwingDuck> s/accound/account/
[21:23] <kubotu> DarkwingDuck meant: "Ahhh, kk. My people.ubuntu.com account just became useful."
[21:31] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~david.wonderly/Kubuntu/kubuntu-docs/   Thanks mate
[22:07] <allee> what's the bzr bd euivalent to debuild -nc.  It's not --reuse as I learnt right now, because digikam start building again :(
[22:08] <Riddell> DarkwingDuck: hmm only the english docs get into the package
[22:19] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: Only the english ones?
[22:20] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: This is my first year doing this.. so, it will auto pull from where for the languages?
[22:20] <maco> DarkwingDuck: language packs?
[22:21] <Riddell> maybe editing LN=C in makefile is what's needed
[22:21] <DarkwingDuck> Okay, ignore that one then, I'll get it fixed. :)
[22:21] <DarkwingDuck> What's the deadline for it?
[22:21] <DarkwingDuck> wait, I'll look it up
[22:26] <Riddell> I'm wrong on the makefile thing
[22:26] <Riddell> <IP_ADDRESS> is the last version I can find with translation
[22:26] <DarkwingDuck> Was it all bundled together?
[22:28] <DarkwingDuck> That was the last time we bundled translations?
[22:32] <Riddell> yes
[22:32]  * ScottK is topping off pim stuff one more time.
[22:33] <ScottK> Do we need to rebuild pyside? https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/867927
[22:33] <ScottK> apachelogger: ^^^
[22:41] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: Before I call and annoy nixternal... Can you see what changes I need to make to the docs?
[22:43] <Riddell> DarkwingDuck: this looks important http://paste.kde.org/130345/
[22:44] <Riddell> from the debdiff between 10.10.2 and <IP_ADDRESS>
[23:39] <claydoh> ScottK: i am getting  new errors on a previously working kmail setup :(
[23:40]  * claydoh tosses a grenade at kmail2
[23:43]  * kb9vqf hits kmail2 and the grenade with an RPG :)
[23:49]  * claydoh blames ScottK, as it was working *almost* fine until he fiddled with it
[23:49] <claydoh> maybe
[23:51] <claydoh> luckily the namespace errors are only in one dimap account, and one that is a spam trap mostly anyway
[23:54] <claydoh> ScottK: so far I have not found one person who has had a successful migration
[23:54] <claydoh> It does appear that the migrator works only if run manually
[23:55] <claydoh> addresses and calendars seem to be fine, as well as maildir mails and cached imap ones as well.
[23:57] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: I'll fix it up and give it back


[06:27] <fluvvell> why does import dvd not appear on my optical disks menu?
[06:28] <fluvvell> When it does on my friends myth, same mythbuntu 10.04
[06:35] <tgm4883> fluvvell, do you have 0.24 installed?
[06:54] <fluvvell> tgm4883, yes
[06:55] <fluvvell> Technophil, so is lack of MTD the issue?  I dont think it appeared in the menu even before I upgraded to 0.24
[06:55] <fluvvell> imean tgm4883
[17:16] <tgm4883> fluvvell, dvd ripping isn't in 0.24 anymore
[22:42] <lwizardl> hello
[22:43] <lwizardl> I was wondering if there is a way to enable the screenshot function while booting from the livedisc
[22:48] <lwizardl> anyone around ??


[00:45] <jrwren> i just had the kswapd0 process using high CPU usage. echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches fixed it. I'm on 4.4.0-22-generic. Anyone else seen this?
[00:59] <nacc> jrwren: you just took away memory pressure
[00:59] <nacc> jrwren: not seen any high kswapd here, but not heavily loaded
[01:42] <tom[]> somehow i screwed up my lo interface during an update. i don't know how. `ip addr show lo` has odd output shown here together with my inyerfaces file https://gist.github.com/anonymous/48985686561070a55e55a00ea503b716
[01:42] <tom[]> what is the correct command to bring lo up?
[07:45] <lordievader> Good morning.
[10:35] <LeMike> hello. I have installed ubuntu-server but now the resolution is very low. so the screen shows the terminal only in the upper left quarter of the screen. is there a way to solve this? I am working on an old fujitsu futro and don't know a thing about it, neither the max possible resolution.
[10:56] <lordievader> Sounds like modesetting is not happening.
[10:56] <lordievader> Then again, why not use ssh?
[11:16] <AtuM> Hello... Can someone tell me what is the best way to put a line "rdma 20049" into /proc/fs/nfsd/portlist ? RedHat made a service called nfs-rdma for this.. does Ubuntu have anything similar?
[11:17] <AtuM> I've put it into rc.local, but it disappears after service restart.. so I need something more persistent.. perhaps a unit file that would add the option after nfs-kernel-server restart
[11:33] <jamespage> ddellav, coreycb: blue balls everywhere
[11:33] <jamespage> :-)
[11:51] <coreycb> jamespage, lol thank you for the early morning giggle
[12:01] <gelbeEnte> Hello! I have some problems with "ecryptfs-mount-private": "Signature not found in user keyring. Perhaps try the interactive 'ecryptfs-mount-private'". My home folder doesn't decrypt. I tried "ecryptfs-rewrap-passphrase" but nothing changed. Is it possible to decrypt?
[12:06] <AtuM> ecryptfs-recover-private
[12:07] <gelbeEnte> Inserted auth tok with sig [0496470557959537] into the user session keyring
[12:07] <gelbeEnte> ERROR: The key required to access this private data is not available
[12:09] <gelbeEnte> :(
[13:17] <ruben23> hi guys any one familiar with ddos deflate..?
[13:37] <cpaelzer> rbasak: there is a dovecot related package called dovecot-antispam
[13:37] <cpaelzer> rbasak: it is not build from the same source, it looks like a sync to me
[13:37] <cpaelzer> rbasak: debian and Ubuntu only have rebuilds from time to time
[13:37] <cpaelzer> rbasak: now that we will "up" dovecot given the merge takes place
[13:38] <cpaelzer> rbasak: we will need to rebuild (or resync) that as well
[13:38] <cpaelzer> rbasak: how to coordinate that best ?
[13:38] <cpaelzer> rbasak: reference http://paste.ubuntu.com/17641820/
[13:46] <rbasak> cpaelzer: good job spotting that. We don't really have a process for dealing with this, but if the dependencies are right dovecot will end up stuck in proposed until antispam is rebuilt - looks like this is the case.
[13:47] <cpaelzer> rbasak: yes it depends
[13:47] <rbasak> cpaelzer: sponsors should be willing to accept whatever you want to do here to point it out. For me, I suggest just pointing out that it needs a no-change rebuild in the merge proposal, and the sponsor can do it at the time. Or if you want the credit for the no change rebuild, supply a debdiff for that too (dch -R is a handy shortcut)
[13:47] <cpaelzer> rbasak: it never breaks, as on a dist-upgrade without a rebuilt dovecot-antispam it gets removed (as it reaslized it is no more compatible)
[13:48] <cpaelzer> rbasak: since it is a no-change-sync instead of a no-change-rebuild I think I'll mention it on the sponsor request
[13:48] <rbasak> cpaelzer: right, so proposed migration should detect that moving dovecot to the release pocket would cause dovecot-antispam to become uninstallable, and thus refuse to do it.
[13:48] <rbasak> cpaelzer: ah right. Yes, sorry. I forgot you mentioned that.
[13:48] <cpaelzer> rbasak: ok, will do so and we will pick up on any issues that will show up along the way
[13:48] <cpaelzer> thanks
[13:49] <rbasak> cpaelzer: I don't think it'll be syncable. It'll need to be a no change rebuild upload.
[13:50] <rbasak> cpaelzer: note the output of "rmadison -u debian dovecot-antispam". Debian has done binNMUs for it, so the source is still actually on 2.0+20150222-1
[13:50] <rbasak> Ubuntu doesn't have binNMUs.
[13:52] <cpaelzer> rbasak: that is the +b4 in what I linked?
[13:53] <rbasak> cpaelzer: that's an indicator - Debian convention (maybe policy?) for binNMU versioning.
[13:53] <rbasak> cpaelzer: also note though that "source" doesn't appear against +b4, only against the plain -1.
[13:54] <rbasak> cpaelzer: you can confirm with chdist. I did "hcdist sid apt-cache show dovecot-antispam" and see that it has "Version: 2.0+20150222-1+b4" but "Source: dovecot-antispam (2.0+20150222-1)".
[13:54] <cpaelzer> rbasak: that is a good one to note, thanks
[13:55] <rbasak> nacc: ^ you might be interested in this edge case too. Shouldn't impact the importer since it doesn't need to care about binaries and Ubuntu doesn't have binNMUs, but an interesting edge case nontheless.
[13:56] <cpaelzer> rbasak: I'll do a debdiff with a rebuild request then - does that has to go to an extra bug ?
[13:56] <cpaelzer> the merge I'd associate to the functional issue that drove me to create it
[13:57] <cpaelzer> I wonder if I can add extra package to the bug and then add the debdiff for the rebuild as well
[13:57] <cpaelzer> rbasak: ^^
[13:59] <rbasak> cpaelzer: if you wish. We don't really *require* bugs for uploads; it's just generally handy to track progress of the sponsorship request over time, a place for review feedback, and an item that can go into the sponsorship queue. I wouldn't bother with an additional bug, but if the sponsor misses it *and* you want it in the sponsorship queue then you may end up creating one anyway. As a sponsor,
[13:59] <rbasak> I'll accept a debdiff for this without a bug :)
[14:38] <coreycb> jamespage, what do you think about installing the theme files into /usr/share/openstack-dashboard/openstack-dashboard-ubuntu-theme/static/ubuntu instead of /usr/share/openstack-dashboard-ubuntu-theme/static/ubuntu?
[14:39] <coreycb> that may fix the SuspiciousFileOperation issue
[14:53] <bitfury> hey all good morning
[14:56] <bitfury> does anyone know if the trusty-security universe repos contain security updates for universe software?
[14:56] <jrwren> what happens when my LVM thinpool fills?
[14:59] <rbasak> bitfury: yes, where security updates for universe have been contributed.
[15:00] <bitfury> got it, thank you rbasak
[15:05] <cpaelzer> this tests wants to be enjoyed I think - autopkgtest.enjoE5
[15:05] <cpaelzer> to the power of 5
[15:16] <tom[]> what comand(s) can i run to apply (changes to) interfaces config files in the same way that system init applies the configs in those files?
[15:21] <nacc> rbasak: yeah, i've seen them before, thanks for the heads-up
[15:22] <nacc> tom[]: you mean /etc/network/interfaces?
[15:22] <nacc> tom[]: you presumably want to reload or restart the networking service
[15:23] <tom[]> probably
[15:23] <rbasak> nacc, tom[]: you don't want to restart networking. Things can explode: http://askubuntu.com/a/376586/7808
[15:24] <nacc> rbasak: thanks for the link
[15:24] <rbasak> The right way is to ifdown the interface(s) being changed, *then* change the interface files, then ifup again. From a screen, and carefully.
[15:24] <tom[]> kreikey
[15:24] <rbasak> Or reboot.
[15:25] <tom[]> ifdown requires the config files to correspond to the current interface state?
[15:25] <rbasak> Yes. It's a bit backwards.
[15:25] <tom[]> i'm reacting to your *s
[15:25] <rbasak> Otherwise, for example, dhclient won't be stopped for an interface switching from DHCP to static, since it won't know to do that later.
[15:26] <rbasak> There are various efforts to make this better. All of which deprecate ifupdown I think. But that won't be coming for a while.
[15:27] <tom[]> i'm trying, among other things, to understand what happened when i screwed up my loopback on a server yesterday
[15:27] <rbasak> It's a pretty challenging problem to solve when you consider complex network setups that include bonds, bridges, vlans, tunnels and so on. The dependency tree is pretty complex.
[15:27] <tom[]> sure. i'm glad i don't deal with any of those complex configs
[15:28] <nacc> rbasak: i suppose, then, it's not entirely true that restarting networking won't work (as i've done it many times). But it may not work depending on how much eni was changed
[15:28] <rbasak> nacc: it also depends on what you mean by "restarting networking" as to whether it'll do what you want or not.
[15:29] <nacc> rbasak: yep, that makes sense
[15:29] <rbasak> So yeah, it might work as expected in certain cases, but certainly not in the general case.
[15:29] <nacc> rbasak: and i'm sure there are dependencies that may not re-trigger properly (or at all)
[15:29] <rbasak> Although I hear the dbus issue is fixed, it's also not unreasonable for running programs to explode when the loopback interface disappears underneath them.
[15:30] <rbasak> So then "restart networking" clearly shouldn't cycle loopback interfaces, and then we're back to the definition problem.
[15:32] <nacc> yep, it makes sense to be more nuanced in what you're trying to control
[15:32] <patdk-lap2> clearly shouldn't?
[15:39] <nacc> rbasak: ok, so re: php-horde-db, shall I file a `requestsync`?
[15:39] <rbasak> nacc: no need, I synced it.
[15:39] <nacc> rbasak: ok, wasn't sure, thanks!
[15:50] <cpaelzer> nacc: about the importer I think I would change the doc once you ack about the following
[15:50] <cpaelzer> nacc: "Go to Launchpad page for USD git project and request a merge review."
[15:50] <cpaelzer> to
[15:51] <cpaelzer> nacc: "Go to the Launchpad page of your just uploaded merge branch and propose for merging into the USD git project"
[15:51] <cpaelzer> nacc: ?
[15:51] <cpaelzer> or is it really reverse than I expected
[15:51] <nacc> cpaelzer: ack, that's correct
[15:52] <nacc> please fix :)
[15:57] <cpaelzer> nacc: while at it I should provide guidance about "target repository" and "Target reference path"
[15:57] <cpaelzer> nacc: is that already in the readme files and I could copy from there ?
[15:57] <cpaelzer> my first assumption of "~usd-import-team/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer" was wrong ... :-/
[15:58] <cpaelzer> nacc: I'll open a quikc HO so you know what I'm asking about
[16:00] <nacc> cpaelzer: sorry, missed the pings, yeah we should provide better instructions for that part
[16:00] <nacc> for target repo, just search by the source package name
[16:01] <nacc> and it should find the corresponding usd-import-team tree
[16:01] <nacc> cpaelzer: and for target path, use 'debian/sid' (presuming that's what you merged to -- use whatever referenced you merged to in the process)
[17:07] <Kallis> Could anyone possibly help me with my openvpn setup, I can connect fine but I cannot access internet when connected or the local shares on the VPN server
[17:24] <magicalChicken> rbasak: I can take a couple more bugs this week probably. I was looking through the list and I saw 1296835, which I can take care of pretty quick
[17:24] <magicalChicken> if there are any other simple-ish ones i can probably do one or two more
[18:30] <rbasak> magicalChicken: thanks! I hadn't prepared any more, but I'll find a couple more for you tomorrow.
[18:30] <rbasak> There's a big enough backlog - I just pick a few in advance of the meeting every week.
[18:32] <magicalChicken> Thanks. I'm getting a bit quicker using the tools so hopefully I can get more bugs patched now
[18:47] <jhobbs> I have an openstack cloud I've deployed with juju charms, and have an internal network and a provider network. By default, only the internal network's interface is being brought up in instances that have both networks attached. What's the best way to get the second interface to come up also?
[19:21] <coreycb> jamespage, ddellav: here's my fix for the mitaka-proposed error - https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server-dev/ubuntu/+source/horizon/commit/?h=stable/mitaka&id=55e2f7ec3666d66d5cbc7e22d12f90bcd60163fa
[19:21] <coreycb> I just tested it and the theme seems to be fine
[19:48] <akira1980> What would be the way to do this,  I'm wanting to have a private email relay server. Basically pull all the mail from the mail server as pop then have the secondary server as imap and keep all the mail on that one. It's there a better solution?
[20:48] <concerti> is there an equivalent to SAR preinstalled on ubuntu servers?
[20:49] <mgriffin> concerti: you can install sysstat
[20:50] <concerti> yep that's the plan , just making sure there is not something like that already running w/ ubuntu
[20:50] <mgriffin> concerti: look in cron log?
[20:50] <mgriffin> concerti: and ps
[21:42] <RoyK> concerti: just install sysstat and enable it in /etc/default/sysstat
[21:42] <RoyK> concerti: for some reason debian/ubuntu doesn't enable it by default


[01:51] <pleia2> anyone remember the name of that tool that would calculate how much free software was being used on your system?
[01:51]  * ianorlin doesn't
[01:56] <pleia2> aha, vrms
[02:00] <ianorlin> oh I heard about that
[02:01] <pleia2> :)
[02:03]  * ianorlin just installed it but it did not notice a proprietary braodcom driver
[02:03] <pleia2> didn't notice chrome either
[02:03] <pleia2> or hipchat, I think it only checks a few repos
[02:29] <ianorlin> ah
[03:49] <arrith> hm to be comprehensive it could check binaries in PATH and report 'known free', 'known nonfree', and 'unknown status'
[04:20] <ianorlin> yeah
[04:28] <arrith> might even have to include library paths, then would need awareness of the packaging directory layout of python/ruby/perl/etc
[05:27] <nhaines> I am very happy because I found out why Django was incredibly broken on my shared hosting.  It was because I had Django 0.96 hiding along with a PYTHONPATH variable.  This has been remedied.
[05:32] <nhaines> I am also happy because I just discovered why Django wasn't running, so I actually beat ASO support to a fix.  This is remarkable because the support team are ninjas.
[05:33] <nhaines> Of course, I'm getting Python import errors again, so it's back to throwing keyboards.
[05:40] <arrith> haha
[05:41] <arrith> progress!
[05:54] <nhaines> And now it works.  :D
[06:00] <arrith> woo
[06:01] <arrith> i realized the pythin script i wrote only did half of what i wanted/needed
[06:01] <arrith> and just learned about "enumerate"
[06:06] <nhaines> arrith: just wait until you learn about list comprehensions.  :)
[06:06] <nhaines> It is tea time.
[06:07] <arrith> nhaines: oh somehow i already stumbled on that
[06:07] <arrith> that stuff is cool
[06:08] <arrith> not sure how to use it beyond the simple like   [i for i in thing]    or     [num**2 for num in thing]
[06:13] <nhaines> arrith: it's a start.  :)
[07:11] <AlienFreak> LOL.  virtual Richard M. Stallman  that's awesome.
[07:12] <AlienFreak> ie. vrms
[07:14] <rww> it doesn't actually agree with him, though :s
[07:14] <AlienFreak> well.. stallman barely agrees with himself...
[07:15] <AlienFreak> I think if it was accurate it'd probably mark 90% of my system as non-free software
[07:22] <arrith> eh, AlienFreak i'd challenge you to find a contradiction in what RMS has says
[07:23] <arrith> does get kind of tricky in some minutiae, say like selling proprietary licenses, or LGPL, but it's all pretty consistent
[07:24] <AlienFreak> he's a unique character... I would simply argue that most people's definitions of free software doesn't match his
[07:25] <AlienFreak> either ways.. it's too late and i'm too sleepy to argue RMS freedom rules
[07:26] <arrith> AlienFreak: haha, well when you're not, i'm all for checking my own consistency
[07:27] <arrith> but yeah, he does use different definitions for some words and tries to get others to use them. that might not be the best use of his time
[07:27]  * AlienFreak nods.
[07:27] <AlienFreak> gnu/linux particularly
[07:27] <AlienFreak> don't get me wrong.. I appreciate his prescence.  He defines the extreme left view of the free/proprietary debate
[07:28] <AlienFreak> I just think there's room to use F/OSS without going all the way to the extreme left.  Last time I met him, he was arguing that java was evil.  (unrelated to the memory usage pattern on the machine )
[07:28] <AlienFreak> in a room full of CS students whose curriculum is 70% java
[07:30] <arrith> AlienFreak: actually now it's gnu+linux
[07:30] <arrith> and no one knows that except for people that follow the latest on RMS heh
[07:30] <rww> i thought it was GNU/systemd+linux
[07:30] <AlienFreak> is it?
[07:30] <nhaines> RMS is probably the most consistent person I've ever met.
[07:30] <arrith> AlienFreak: well he says "gnu plus linux, or gnu slash linux"
[07:31] <AlienFreak> didn't he finish his kernel now.  Does he call his os gnu + hurd?
[07:31] <arrith> rww: soon to be, thanks to those traitors in the debian high council :(
[07:31]  * rww rolls eyes
[07:31] <arrith> AlienFreak: he goes out in the jungle for years with only a mips machine and the emacs src, and makes progress on hurd
[07:32] <arrith> rww: debian was the chosen one! *rest of star wars quote*
[07:32] <rww> and it chose well :3
[07:32] <arrith> no one left to save us now
[07:32] <nhaines> The transistion to systemd is a real shame, but hardly the end of the world.  If they work well with others, anyway.
[07:32] <arrith> rww: pssh people had fedora, they had arch
[07:32] <arrith> leave me my debian. even pass that "no encouraging one init system" thing, that was decent
[07:33] <arrith> nhaines: that so hasn't happened yet. nor are there really hints that it will
[07:33] <rww> arrith: you are aware that non-Ubuntu-created init daemons are *normally* used by more than one distro, yes?
[07:34] <rww> arrith: and systemd is better in a technical sense than sysvinit, and I tend to find that the anti-systemd ranters are rather less personable than Lennart
[07:34] <arrith> rww: i'm not necessarily advocating for upstart
[07:34] <arrith> that gentoo one didn't seem that bad. personally i'm just for having something *besides* systemd, so people can take it all more piecemeal
[07:34] <rww> Is your expectation that every other init system in the Debian archives will magically stop working now that systemd is going to be default?
[07:34] <arrith> have it as some spec of different tools that perform different functions. you get the bonus of the *bsds possibly being able to make use of it
[07:35] <arrith> rww: welll... bitrot is a thing
[07:35] <arrith> if they only test systemd
[07:35] <rww> arrith: they didn't only test sysvinit when it was default. systemd worked quite happily on Debian back then too.
[07:35] <rww> arrith: and if people care about the other init systems, they will presumably continue this tradition
[07:36] <rww> if nobody cares enough to do the work, it's not really fair to expect it to be done *shrug*
[07:37] <arrith> rww: but that's the point of why defaults are so important. chances are if something is going to be written/maintained, it will be with various expectations. now the expectation is all the systemd junk will be there.
[07:37] <nhaines> This is only really a problem for daemon package maintainers, though.
[07:37] <rww> arrith: feel free to help with the efforts to provide comparable services to e.g. logind. I believe slangasek would be the person to chat with about that.
[07:38] <arrith> it's fine to require it, like gnome has been. but a slow, pernicious decay of packages depending on systemd in one way or another
[07:38] <arrith> rww: it takes way more than one person. almost the resources of... a distro
[07:38] <rww> and if people care enough to do the work, they will presumably do it
[07:38] <arrith> people can boycott gnome, you can't boycott the debian repos on debian
[07:39] <arrith> rww: well i would have hoped people would care enough to keep sane defaults
[07:39] <rww> shockingly, people disagree with you on what is a sane default
[07:39] <arrith> that is one thing i'm curious about, polls of debian user preferences. i remember some poll but i forget if they were debian members or devs
[07:39] <arrith> rww: everyone makes mistakes
[07:39] <arrith> learning from them is what's important
[07:40] <rww> personally I think that sticking with a mess of bash scripts for initialization when there's a superior option out there that makes use of Linux features (just like FreeBSD's init daemon makes use of its, OS X ditto) is not really sane
[07:40] <nhaines> Debian user preferences are worthless.
[07:40] <nhaines> It's Debian developer preferences that matter.  (They're the ones doing the work.)
[07:40] <rww> systemd works nicely, the cgroup setup is nice, journalctl has some really useful features, and in general dismissing it all as "junk" and complaining that other people aren't doing the work you want them to do is a bit naff
[07:41] <arrith> rww: my main concerns are simply not being modularized and not being platform agnostic. i suppose both could be fixed in time, but people seem to want to undo the faults of systemd rather than try to do a cleaner implementation.
[07:41] <arrith> just seems like a less than ideal way to go about it all
[07:42] <rww> arrith: "modularized" means what, specifically? And I'm perfectly fine with Linux being like every other sane OS and actually using the features its kernel provides to make sysadmins lives easier.
[07:44] <arrith> rww: actual separate projects. creating a spec then implementing it rather than effectively being another linux-kernel-level (in size and scope) "do everything".
[07:45] <arrith> rww: sure, i'm all for making things easier. but there is something to be said for the usefulness of efforts like kFreeBSD and how systemd really makes them impossible.
[07:45] <arrith> systemd dependence*
[07:45] <nhaines> What's useful about kFreeBSD?
[07:45] <rww> There's something to be said for not holding back a Linux distribution because a FreeBSD based offshoot of it that's used by like 10 people would have to make sure its alternate init system still works.
[07:46] <arrith> nhaines: lack of a monoculture, alternate features, alternate architecture, alternate performance characteristics, etc etc
[07:46] <arrith> rww: consider kFreeBSD 10% of my concern, to be clear
[07:46] <nhaines> That sounds way too vague to be actionable.
[07:46] <arrith> but still notable
[07:47] <arrith> nhaines: the debian project thought it worthwhile enough to give it, i forget their term, but almost up to an official release. just marked 'beta' or something.
[07:48] <nhaines> I'm not certain Linux can be described as a "monoculture".
[07:48] <arrith> nhaines: 0days on the kernel are a thing
[07:48] <rww> The most ridiculous part of the whole systemd-in-debian thing for me is all the energy going into complaining about logind (which is generally the concern for some reason) depending on systemd and all the lack of energy going into writing an alternative to logind that implements its interface.
[07:50] <arrith> rww: well i have heard that various parts of systemd can be disabled, i'm really not sure what percentage of all of systemd is going to be enabled by default
[07:50] <rww> so you end up with situations like Ubuntu using an old version of logind from pre-cgroup, and you have to wonder why it is that apparently everyone competent to write a seat manager is only working on systemd
[07:51] <rww> arrith: logind requires systemd. systemd requires journald. that's about it in terms of hard requirements
[07:51] <arrith> if it's just logind, that's a lot easier to reimplement than all of systemd, but i doubt it will be
[07:51] <rww> arrith: GNOME doesn't depend on any of the above, but functions better with logind (apparently, I don't use it so...)
[07:51] <rww> so go re-implement what logind does with some other non-systemd method, and you're all set
[07:52] <arrith> just for the record, and i don't mean to equate them at all, but leonart pottering tends to be a bit heavy handed in his software planning. effectively the reverse of modularization and following a spec. i'll say i'm not intimately familiar with the specifics of systemd internals but i'm wary
[07:52] <nhaines> rww: but logind steals your software independence.
[07:52] <arrith> rww: is that all debian has approved of in terms of systemd use?
[07:52] <arrith> since yeah, the compilation flags for systemd will actually dictate a lot of systemd's effect
[07:53] <rww> arrith: as I understand it, Debian is going to use systemd as the default init daemon, logind on environments that use it, and I'd expect journald piped to rsyslog but I haven't seen much on that bit yet
[07:53] <arrith> hmm
[07:53] <rww> plus systemd-udev, of course
[07:54] <arrith> if it's really just init, and they clean other parts up before they use them, or don't use them at all, i would be okay with that
[07:54] <arrith> hrm
[07:54] <rww> what "other parts" are you referring to?
[07:54] <arrith> well that binary log format i'd love to avoid is one thing
[07:54] <arrith> no reason a json or something couldn't do all it can
[07:55] <rww> the one that journald uses by default, which you can trivially switch off and have stuff go to rsyslog like usual
[07:55] <rww> including on Fedora and Arch and what have you
[07:55] <arrith> rww: the defaults for that do matter, imo
[07:55] <arrith> yeah actually, i wonder what arch and fedora have for either. i'm guessing they leave it on.
[07:55] <rww> and they're a matter of opinion, and Debian's processes disagree with yours, so...
[07:55] <arrith> fedora at least for sure
[07:55] <rww> as far as I know they use the default journald setup
[07:56] <arrith> well, the council at least. might not necessarily reflect usrs
[07:56] <rww> it's a tech committee, and Debian users are free to become developers so that their opinion actually matters. that's how things work in Debian.
[07:56] <nhaines> rww: +1
[07:56] <arrith> rww: well it would be quite something of say 80% of debian users were against systemd say
[07:57] <arrith> that would really not be serving the community
[07:57] <rww> if 80% of Debian users were against systemd and there weren't enough Debian Developers against it to pass a general resolution (majority) against it, that would be quite something
[07:57] <nhaines> The Debian community is the developers.
[07:57] <rww> they're not there to serve the community, they're there to make a good distro
[07:58] <arrith> heh they can have a great distro, that nobody uses. i'm looking at nixos
[07:58] <rww> okay, have fun with that. I don't expect 80% of Debian users will follow you.
[07:58] <arrith> rww: you haven't seen polls?
[07:58] <arrith> i swear there was one
[07:59] <rww> a self-selected internet poll on a subject with a bunch of arguing is rather unlikely to be statistically significant
[07:59] <rww> but, we'll see. If Debian drops 80% of its user count with jessie, I'll come back and tip my hat to you.
[08:00] <arrith> iirc was on some debian mailing list and was kind of official-ish
[08:00] <arrith> haha
[08:00] <rww> hell, ditto if it drops 10%
[08:00] <arrith> well for all i know the poll was pro systemd
[08:00] <arrith> eh
[08:00] <rww> and again, if systemd is such a huge problem, why is there no General Resolution overriding the tech committee?
[08:00] <arrith> well ofc that won't happen, you'll just see sysvinit numbers in popcon stay high
[08:00] <rww> the tech-ctte result specifically allowed for a majority vote GR to override them, but nobody's even proposed one
[08:01] <arrith> rww: it might be that they just want to use 'the good parts' and either slowly add the rest, or ideally make them better before they add them
[08:01] <arrith> i thought ian tried?
[08:02] <arrith> http://ostatic.com/blog/debian-developers-get-user-input-on-systemd
[08:02] <rww> no, he seconded a GR from someone else that kept systemd as the default and said that package maintainers need to make sure their packages work on all Debian-packaged init systems or some unworkable nonsense like that
[08:02] <arrith> http://people.debian.org/~stapelberg//2013/05/27/systemd-survey-results.html
[08:02] <darthrobot> Title: [Michael Stapelbergs Debian blog]
[08:02] <arrith> eh
[08:02] <arrith> that's unfortunate if that was the case. just keeping legacy support and being open to systemd alternatives would have been good for me.
[08:02] <rww> so 15% plus 14% undecided
[08:03] <arrith> Top concerns
[08:03] <arrith> complexity is top, second is not portable to non-linux systems
[08:03] <rww> arrith: they are open to systemd alternatives. upstart is in the archive. go file bugs and write patches for your packages that don't support it
[08:03] <rww> ditto sysvinit
[08:03] <rww> not ditto openrc, but that would be nice to see
[08:04] <rww> arrith: I thought we were talking about people who didn't like systemd, not people who had concerns about it?
[08:05] <arrith> rww: i meant "open" there as in taking future investigations into if people are liking systemd, and if something else came out that would be more suitable. right now its "hope everyone likes systemd"
[08:05] <arrith> rww: there's a difference?
[08:05] <rww> erm, yes?
[08:05] <arrith> i'm sure if systemd changed drastically i would love it
[08:05] <rww> or are you of the opinion that things you like can have no issues?
[08:05] <arrith> so i'd say my dislike is all concerns
[08:05] <arrith> heh, i prefer them to have as few as possible
[08:06] <rww> and I expect that Debian Developers tend to have fewer concerns about systemd than about sysvinit
[08:07] <arrith> i would be curious what, if anything, is brought up about systemd during the next board election
[08:07] <arrith> since that might be, or not
[08:08] <rww> If you're referring to a tech-ctte election, they're not elected. If you're referring to Debian Project Leader, go ask about it on debian-vote@, since the nomination period started already.
[08:09] <rww> (per Debian Constitution 6.2, new tech-ctte members are generally recommended by existing ones to the DPL who then decides whether or not to approve them, which is similar to all the other stuff DPL delegates in Debian)
[08:10] <rww> anyways, it's bedtime for me, I have to be up for work in 6h
[08:10] <nhaines> rww: yay work!
[08:17] <arrith> had to put away dishes
[08:17] <arrith> aww
[08:18] <arrith> that is interesting, i really should look into that. i heard of the DPL elections, and i guess i assumed the CTTE were also
[08:19] <arrith> one thing i thought of is overall linus and his lieutenants have done a fine job stewarding linux, and a (if not the most) critical part of linux distros
[08:19] <arrith> the systemd team, and systemd, is all very new. it hasn't exactly proven itself anywhere besides just being the only thing that supports various kernel features
[08:20] <arrith> then you have redhat taking gnome in some odd directions, then they promote systemd as this "let systemd solve everything for you"
[08:21] <arrith> as some somewhat-ignorant user it feels forced and is quite off-putting.
[08:21] <arrith> heh coincidentally brought into debian by an unelected board :P
[08:22] <arrith> i do wonder how much of the existing board a new DPL could dissolve, if the DPL really wanted to
[08:26] <nhaines> https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution
[08:26] <darthrobot> Title: [Debian Constitution]
[08:27] <arrith> might have to drop some DoI
[08:28] <arrith> When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the Debian Constitution
[08:28] <nhaines> Debian Constitution 6.2.5, I'm going to say no.
[08:29] <arrith> wow
[08:29] <arrith> that is some supreme court stuff
[08:30] <arrith> 4.1.4 about overriding
[08:31] <nhaines> Yes, that is because the developers are the ones doing the actual work.
[08:31] <arrith> well i mean more, unelected
[08:32] <arrith> devs, those doing the actual work, might want to be able to participate in the selection of the technical committee
[08:34] <nhaines> They do in that they elect the Debian Project Leader.
[08:38] <arrith> hm yeah that is interesting though, i wonder why they're not directly elected. there must be some reasoning behind that.
[08:40] <nhaines> Sounds like a huge, unnecessary time sink.
[08:41] <arrith> well could do some kind of hybrid system. unelected except say once a year. refreshing period.
[08:41] <arrith> also, only unnecessary until it isn't
[08:42] <arrith> the systemd fiasco clearly shows they've gone mad with power and are unfit to lead </partial s>
[08:43] <nhaines> If anyone really believed that, they could hold a General Resolution.
[08:44] <arrith> who is silencing them is the question!
[08:44] <arrith> how deep does this go
[08:47] <nhaines> The only thing I care about is that Ubuntu doesn't break on phones and tablets.
[08:56] <arrith> oh i really don't think it will. ubuntu phone is the top priority atm
[08:56] <arrith> besides i guess ubuntu server
[08:58] <arrith> i actually wonder what distros are actively rejecting systemd, and might be sources for usable alternatives at one point
[08:59] <arrith> possibly gentoo? i know they like that openrc a lot, but i wonder if they're refusing to 'package' systemd
[08:59] <arrith> i doubt they're refusing to 'package' gnome3
[09:01] <nhaines> Ubuntu's main priority is cloud infrastructure.  :)
[09:01] <arrith> openstack or that landscape?
[09:02] <nhaines> Openstack and Juju.
[09:13] <arrith> ohh
[09:14] <arrith> juju is really going to have to pull off some magick to take on this docker craze
[09:14] <arrith> juju was doing pretyy well, but was hardly known outside of people directly inside ubuntu or following it very closely, then docker exploded
[16:43] <raevol> almost... there...
[18:58] <rww> arrith: both GNOME 3 and systemd work fine on Gentoo. I've personally used systemd on it, have not tried GNOME 3 on it.


[03:51] <infinity> cjwatson: Oh, if the failures are in proposed, that's totally expected.  Will fix.
[03:51] <infinity> cjwatson: proposed got rolled back to make way for a security update.
[07:48] <cjwatson> infinity: Aha
[07:49] <infinity> cjwatson: Fixing that now.  Just got home.
[07:58] <infinity> cjwatson: Fixed for the next publisher run.
[07:59] <cjwatson> Ta
[08:01] <infinity> cjwatson: I still can't decide if being able to copy deleted packages back in to a series is "wrong", but it sure is handy.
[08:06] <wgrant> It's both, as we've found on several occasions!
[08:07] <infinity> wgrant: Well, it's handy enough, that I think we probably want to preserve the behaviour in the redesign.
[08:07] <wgrant> Oh most certainly.
[08:07] <wgrant> It's wrong in a lot of ways, but also invaluable.


[00:35] <rbasak> slangasek: I've been asked to look at the MAAS SRUs in the queue. What's the status of the MAAS SRU exception please? Is it approved? I found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MAASUpdates but it doesn't seem to be endorsed or linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[00:37] <rbasak> (I'm aware I could review, negotiate and approve myself, but I'd prefer to go with whatever is already being done rather than do it all again)
[00:37] <slangasek> rbasak: correct, it has not been signed off on as a standing exception.  infinity has the ball on getting that done.  SRU Team always has the authority to make one-off exceptions, the standing exception just saves us time and avoids inconsistent handling
[00:37] <slangasek> rbasak: that wiki page is not approved, but I'd say it's getting close, so maybe you want to review it yourself by way of assessing the SRU
[00:37] <rbasak> OK
[00:37] <rbasak> THanks
[00:42] <tsimonq2> rbasak: How often do Git imports run?
[00:42] <tsimonq2> (I'm asusming it's in a cronjob, right?)
[00:42] <tsimonq2> *assuming
[00:52] <rbasak> tsimonq2: there's a "daemon" that watches Launchpad publications
[00:53] <rbasak> It's not currently very smart. In theory it should pick up on things in thirty minutes. In reality an actual import could take longer if it falls behind (eg. a large number of new publications). Right now it's recovering from an outage.
[00:54] <tsimonq2> rbasak: Ah.
[00:54] <tsimonq2> Thanks.
[03:11] <andersk> I feel like there ought to be an automated check for version monotonicity across Ubuntu releases.  Having just written a script for this, I found:
[03:11] <andersk> Older in trusty than precise: language-pack-hne language-pack-hne-base language-pack-hsb language-pack-hsb-base language-pack-ss language-pack-ss-base
[03:11] <andersk> Older in xenial than trusty: dh-golang
[03:11] <andersk> Older in artful than xenial: fuse-umfuse-ext2 libclc libdrm mesa patch python-pyvmomi snapcraft wireless-regdb
[03:11] <andersk> Older in bionic than xenial: fuse-umfuse-ext2 linux-meta-azure mesa nvidia-graphics-drivers-384
[03:11] <andersk> Older in bionic than artful: libvorbisidec nvidia-graphics-drivers-384
[03:11] <andersk> Older in cosmic than bionic: firefox gnupg2 gst-plugins-bad1.0 gstreamer-vaapi imagemagick libarchive-zip-perl linux linux-meta-raspi2 linux-raspi2 linux-signed llvm-defaults perl php7.2 snapcraft swauth thunderbird
[03:13] <andersk> The mesa discrepancy in particular seems to be interfering with upgrades on a machine with both xenial and bionic sources, and I’d guess it might be causing upgrades to fail.
[03:19] <Unit193> andersk: Every upgrade I end up with local packages because people can't keep the upgrade path intact, and while I wouldn't mind that in PPA's so much I do mind in the official Ubuntu archive.
[03:20] <Unit193> andersk: I must ask though, what script did you write for this?
[03:21] <Unit193> https://loki.unit193.net/test_versions.py is mine, but it's designed for other uses not specifically testing upgrade paths.
[03:32] <andersk> It’s a similar quick Python script: https://gist.github.com/andersk/72bf1e03fb5c8fff0b13e3dc497d85cd
[03:37] <Unit193> Neat.
[11:24] <LocutusOfBorg> tyhicks, hello, can we please have fscrypt merged / synced from Debian?
[11:24] <LocutusOfBorg> maybe the new version fixes the testsuite
[11:26] <LocutusOfBorg> (yes, it should fix it)
[14:16] <xnox> doko, because boost upstream changed how they abi tag python-like libraries, i doubt anything in debian/ubuntu will know how to actually build against both 36 and 37 variants of the libs.
[14:16] <xnox> doko, thus when i come back, i will work on fixing all of those.
[14:16] <xnox> doko, as part of the 1.67 transition
[14:16] <xnox> doko, it's in NEW queue for both ubuntu & debian.
[14:16] <xnox> doko, (just the boost1.67, not the update to the defaults yet)
[16:20] <tyhicks> LocutusOfBorg: hey - thanks for the ping - it looks like a merge and possibly a sync is possible
[16:22] <tyhicks> general question for #ubuntu-devel... the fscrypt package that I uploaded directly to bionic (and that cosmic inherited) built the golang-github-google-fscrypt-dev binary package which is the source tree of the fscrypt project (many go package seem to do this)
[16:23] <tyhicks> Debian fscrypt source package comments out that binary package from the control file: https://salsa.debian.org/go-team/packages/fscrypt/blob/debian/sid/debian/control#L57
[16:24] <tyhicks> I'd like to simply sync the package from Debian but anyone with that package installed will be left with the old version
[16:24] <tyhicks> I don't think that's a problem, especially considering what the binary package is, but can someone confirm that we can just not build that binary package in cosmic without any problem?
[17:18] <mdeslaur> tyhicks: just make sure there are no reverse depends on it, then you can drop it, yes
[17:19] <tyhicks> mdeslaur: ah, I hadn't thought about that (shouldn't be in this case but I'll make sure)
[17:19] <tyhicks> thanks!
[17:19] <mdeslaur> np
[17:19] <mdeslaur> and reverse-build-depends
[17:20]  * tyhicks nods
[17:20] <tyhicks> all good
[20:34] <ahasenack> doko: hi, what was that sssd /usr/local change? It is failing to build now: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/377463205/buildlog_ubuntu-cosmic-amd64.sssd_1.16.1-1ubuntu4~ppa1_BUILDING.txt.gz
[20:34] <ahasenack> the change: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/370383936/sssd_1.16.1-1ubuntu2_1.16.1-1ubuntu3.diff.gz
[20:37] <ahasenack> it's also adding an init file, not mentioned in the changelog
[21:52] <Snow-Man> anyone know how to get at the unix username of the user building the package inside debian/rules..?
[21:54] <elmo> Snow-Man: ... whoami ?
[21:54] <Snow-Man> tried that
[21:55] <Snow-Man> more specifically: "export USER=$(whoami)" at the beginning of debian/rules
[21:55] <elmo> OK?
[21:55] <Snow-Man> well, it didn't work..
[21:56] <elmo> as in $USER is empty or wrong or what?
[21:57] <Snow-Man> $(USER) ends up being empty
[21:58] <Snow-Man> $USER just gives SER
[21:58] <Snow-Man> specifically trying to fix this: https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=pgbackrest
[21:59] <Snow-Man> essentially need to do: `sed -i 's/vagrant/$USER/g' /backrest/doc/resource/exe.cache`
[22:00] <Snow-Man> also tried $(LOGNAME) but no joy there
[22:01] <elmo> Snow-Man: it's been a while since I did make files, but don't you need it to write it as $$USER  ?
[22:01] <Snow-Man> elmo: thought $(USER) would work (have been trying both $USER and $(USER)...), but lemme try $$USER...
[22:13] <Snow-Man> ended up having to use $$(whoami), but that worked!  thanks much elmo!
[22:13] <elmo> Snow-Man: no worries
[22:24] <cjwatson> Snow-Man: $(USER) would work if it were a make variable rather than a shell variable, in which case it would need to be assigned using $(shell whoami) rather than just $(whoami).  FWIW
[22:26] <cjwatson> Snow-Man: $USER works because it's pre-set in the build environment, which isn't a particularly robust assumption to make
[22:26] <cjwatson> $$USER rather
[22:28] <cjwatson> $$(whoami) seems like a reasonable approach though and is probably what I'd do if there's only one occurrence
[22:28] <Snow-Man> yea, this is temporary
[22:28] <Snow-Man> and there's only one case of it
[22:28] <Snow-Man> We should be able to eliminate the need for it in the next version
[22:28] <cjwatson> ack