[12:02] <Burgundavia> mdke, we just probably add a section to UserDocumentation called "working with other OSes
[12:02] <|rockinnerd|> yes
[12:02] <Burgundavia> as there are some other howtos for dealing with macos
[12:02] <mdke> might be worth thinking about merging this page into that guide? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows
[12:02] <Burgundavia> and the RecoveringUbuntu one
[12:02] <|rockinnerd|> I dual-boot windows and Ubuntu, so i can test stuff in windows
[12:03] <Burgundavia> mdke, that topic is worth its own wiki page
[12:03] <Burgundavia> might be good to have a promient link off of dualboot,though
[12:03] <mdke> Burgundavia, guess so, but the two pages could be integrated somehow
[12:03] <|rockinnerd|> whoops i repeated myself on the QTparted thing
[12:03] <ChristopherCmoli> ^^wikiname
[12:05] <ChristopherCmoli> oops its christophercmolik
[12:05] <|rockinnerd|> --- My feedback on today's WinXP Home + Ubuntu (warty) live together (on an Amilo L1300 if that matters): This section and below looks ugly
[12:06] <Burgundavia> remove all the comments and integrate them into the text
[12:08] <mdke> me too
[12:08] <|rockinnerd|> wish i could be
[12:08] <mdke> i think i will need it again soon for work
[12:09] <mdke> sell it!
[12:10] <Burgundavia> I am getting rid of mine
[12:10] <Burgundavia> all in one means crap for all
[12:11] <|rockinnerd|> any AIOs that work well with linux?
[12:11] <mdke> ciao enrico :)
[12:11] <|rockinnerd|> i'm on a, er, tight budget
[12:13] <enrico> hi
[12:13] <|rockinnerd|> We should delete this page, and split it up into Windows 2k, Windows XP, and Windows 9x/ME, because all of this info is jumbled together, and slightly confusing
[12:15] <|rockinnerd|> b/c all of the 3 methods vary depending on one of the 3 oses
[12:15] <|rockinnerd|> s/oses/os groups
[12:16] <Burgundavia> the HP everything-is-crap work with linux
[12:16] <Burgundavia> HP is actually funding development for htem
[12:17] <Burgundavia> |rockinnerd|, can that be done within a single page, with sections?
[12:17] <|rockinnerd|> that works too.  Is there anyway to tell who the main developer of this page is?
[12:18] <Burgundavia> you are now
[12:18] <Burgundavia> wiki pages "belong" to nobody
[12:19] <|rockinnerd|>  I intend to finish this once I receive my official Ubuntu CD's, which I will use to do a fresh install.  <== who is this "i"? i wonder...
[12:20] <Burgundavia> no idea
[12:22] <|rockinnerd|> yep.
[12:22] <|rockinnerd|> Disclaimer @ top of page: I intend to split up the page into 3 main groups: Win2k, because it seems different than XP, WinXP, and Win9x/ME Also, the errors will be put into another section of this page. So: Pardon our dust, but remodel we must.
[12:24] <mdke> go ahead and wreak havoc
[12:24] <mdke> that "i intend to finish this" has been there for months iirc
[12:24] <mdke> btw I reckon you might find a couple of guides which are helpful for content on the forum
[12:26] <|rockinnerd|> thx mdke
[12:26] <mdke> np
[12:27] <mdke> also
[12:27] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum/installation/Partitioning
[12:28] <|rockinnerd|> as ive said, i dual-boot XP and Ubuntu, so i kinda know how to partition.  I will still look @ that link though mdke
[12:28] <mdke> |rockinnerd|, just saves effort to use existing guides, I'm not suggesting you don't know how to do it. Much of our work here at docteam is using material that is already available
[12:30] <|rockinnerd|> ah.
[12:30] <|rockinnerd|> didn't think you were suggesting though. thanks for the heads-up.
[12:31] <|rockinnerd|> well, ive g2g for now.
[12:31] <|rockinnerd|> thanks for all the info
[12:46] <elle_flane> hay!!!i really want know how it could be possible to install ubuntu in a external usb hard disk, my computer hasn t internal hard disk, and i ussually works with usb  kanoppix  and start with a cd, but i would like to have ubuntu, i didnt find any driver for do it, some people know anything
[12:56] <mdke> elle_flane, no idea i'm afraid. You could ask in #ubuntu?
[01:14] <elle_flane> thanks i will try
[01:16] <Burgundavia> should I go to town on the IdeaPool?
[01:17] <Burgundavia> mdke, others?
[01:18] <mdke> Burgundavia, go right ahead but be aware that I think -devel uses that page quite a lot
[01:18] <Burgundavia> I am removing the things that are already implemented
[01:18] <Burgundavia> such as services-admin
[01:18] <Burgundavia> yast2 port?
[01:21] <Burgundavia> I want section editing
[01:21] <Burgundavia> dammit
[01:50] <|rockinnerd|> hey all
[01:51] <Burgundavia> hello again
[01:54] <|rockinnerd|> :)
[02:27] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Cedega
[02:27] <Burgundavia> rwabel, where does one get the .deb file?
[02:29] <HrdwrBoB> from the transgaming website
[02:29] <HrdwrBoB> transgaming.ocm
[02:29] <HrdwrBoB> com
[02:29] <Burgundavia> better make that explicit
[02:29] <Burgundavia> and make it clear that Cedega is non-free
[02:29] <HrdwrBoB> yeah
[02:32] <HrdwrBoB> done
[02:32] <Burgundavia> thanks
[02:32] <Burgundavia> have you ever done the cedega cvs install?
[02:33] <Burgundavia> a howto for that might be nice
[02:33] <HrdwrBoB> yeah I have
[02:33] <HrdwrBoB> not for some time though
[02:33] <Burgundavia> can you rough something out at CedegaCVS ?
[02:34] <HrdwrBoB> I'll see what I can rustle up
[02:34] <Burgundavia> cheers
[02:35] <HrdwrBoB> hm
[02:36] <HrdwrBoB> might just be better off linking to http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=45
[02:36] <rwabel> Burgundavia: either through buying or trhough emule
[02:36] <rwabel> burgundavia: or torrent
[02:36] <Burgundavia> we cannot promote illegal methods
[02:36] <Burgundavia> but HrdwrBoB already fixed it up
[02:36] <rwabel> exactely, that's why I didn't put it
[02:37] <Burgundavia> but there was no mention of how to get it at all
[02:37] <Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, sure, link to that
[02:37] <rwabel> will add that
[02:37] <rwabel> ah already done, thanks
[02:37] <rwabel> about cvs
[02:37] <HrdwrBoB> yeah I just added it
[02:38] <rwabel> I've seen some french howto, I could translate if it's needed.
[02:38] <rwabel> but I've never tried that one out
[02:38] <Burgundavia> excellent
[02:38] <HrdwrBoB> I followed the l-g.net instructions a while back - they seemed to work
[02:38] <HrdwrBoB> I've since bought it though
[02:38] <rwabel> shall I do the howto for cvs?
[02:39] <HrdwrBoB> if you like
[02:39] <rwabel> but there would be no guarantee if it's working...someone should maybe try it then
[02:39] <HrdwrBoB> I think it's a tad redundant in addition to the linux-gamers.net howto
[02:39] <rwabel> HrdwrBob: have you ever tried to play fifa2005 with cedega? All my games are terrible slow via cedega
[02:40] <Burgundavia> maybe port that howto to ours
[02:40] <HrdwrBoB> basically it would be a reformat and squish into a wiki
[02:40] <HrdwrBoB> since it's under GFDL
[02:40] <Burgundavia> our wiki is actually dual licensed, but anyway
[02:40] <Burgundavia> not a major deal
[02:40] <HrdwrBoB> rwabel: I've only played warcraft, wow, doom3, GTA:SA and far cry
[02:40] <Burgundavia> ubotu in #ubuntu now points to our wiki page
[02:40] <rwabel> doom3 via cedega? there is a native one, isn't it? how about speed?
[02:41] <HrdwrBoB> that was before native
[02:41] <rwabel> ok
[02:41] <rwabel> we could just put a link to the linux-gamers.net howto in the cedega howto. what do u think?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> already done
[02:42] <HrdwrBoB> yeah that's what I did
[02:43] <rwabel> good, thanks
[02:43] <rwabel> btw: are there any limitations?
[02:43] <rwabel> I mean in comparision to the subscription one?
[02:43] <HrdwrBoB> of CVS?
[02:43] <Burgundavia> gtg now, have fun and don't break the wiki
[02:44] <HrdwrBoB> yeah it doesn't have the functions which make copy protection work
[02:44] <HrdwrBoB> and is at least theoretically behind the released version
[02:44] <rwabel> you mean witht he onrmal cedega you don't need the no-cd "cracks"?
[02:44] <rwabel> mhh normally cvs is ahead releases :-)
[02:46] <HrdwrBoB> rwabel: sometimes you don't need the nocd cracks
[02:47] <rwabel> can I ask you sth about graphiccards
[02:47] <HrdwrBoB> yeah shoot
[02:47] <rwabel> I've a Nvidia 6600GT and get only about 5000 fps with glxgears
[02:47] <rwabel> and all games under cedega run terribl
[02:48] <rwabel> I don't know if it's the nvidia driver
[02:48] <rwabel> under windows, doom3 runs fine
[02:48] <rwabel> native games like ET runs also fine...but still think my fps are too low
[02:49] <HrdwrBoB> hmm not sure
[03:39] <rwabel> going to bed
[03:39] <rwabel> bye
[03:40] <HrdwrBoB> by
[03:40] <HrdwrBoB> e
[08:41] <Burgundavia> rwabel, there is now a CategoryGames
[09:39] <jsgotangco> hello
[09:39] <Burgundavia> salut
[09:39] <Burgundavia> you running breezy
[09:39] <jsgotangco> no im in hoary
[09:39] <jsgotangco> why is there a showstopper again?
[09:40] <Burgundavia> no
[09:40] <Burgundavia> a minor bug in totem
[09:43] <jsgotangco> this oracle project is eating up a lot of my time lately and i haven't been contributing even *grumble*
[09:55] <robitaille> humm...I still can't run/upgrade Breezy tonight....error 1 when setting up the latest xlibs (but that's OT)
[10:02] <cafuego> robitaille: That's (I think) coz a dir that it wants to delete doesn't exist
[10:09] <robitaille> cafuego: yes I think I found it: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12743
[10:21] <Burgundavia> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItalianUbuntuComeMai
[11:59] <rwabel> Burgundavia: ok
[12:01] <rwabel> Burgundavia: should I put them in both categories from now on?
[12:22] <mdke> he's not here
[12:47] <mdke> rob^, did you get your svn account yet? I managed to talk to elmo yesterday, he apologised and said he would do em last night or this morning
[01:19] <mdke> rwabel, ping
[01:20] <mdke> rwabel, i was thinking, ImageFiles is not a very intuitive name, maybe we can think of a name which explains a bit better what is in it, what do you think?
[01:43] <rwabel> right
[01:44] <rwabel> I'll think about it...but I have to go. If you have one in mind, just change it...I'll see afterwards
[01:46] <mdke> ah ok cool
[01:46] <HrdwrBoB> Pictures
[01:47] <mdke> HrdwrBoB, heh, that's why the page name is confusing, its not pictures
[01:48] <HrdwrBoB> oh, heh
[01:49] <rwabel> need to change that
[01:49] <mdke> doing it
[01:50] <rwabel> otherwise disc image would be ok?
[01:51] <mdke> i've named it ManageISOFiles
[01:51] <mdke> what do you think?
[01:52] <HrdwrBoB> ah, that makes more sense
[01:52] <rwabel> well the problem is that ISO is one kind of it
[01:52] <rwabel> but there are many other disc images
[01:52] <HrdwrBoB> rwabel: yeah but people know what you mean
[01:52] <rwabel> because a IMG etc aren't isos
[01:52] <rwabel> and disc images?
[01:52] <mdke> true
[01:53] <rwabel> maybe I'll find sth other..I let it go through my mind...later
[01:53] <mdke> okay
[01:53] <mdke> later
[02:33] <Mez> who's John Atkinson
[03:23] <kbrooks> hey
[03:23] <kbrooks> so.....
[04:05] <rwabel> mdke: I would just stay with Manage disc images
[04:05] <mdke> rwabel, isn't it disk with a k?
[04:05] <rwabel> right
[04:06] <rwabel> mdke: you are the englishman :-)
[04:06] <mdke> i'm not 100% sure...
[04:07] <rwabel> isn't disc british and disk american english?
[04:08] <rwabel> mhh wikipedia uses disc
[04:08] <rwabel> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso
[04:08] <mdke> not sure
[04:10] <rwabel> I'm pretty sure that most are using disc
[04:10] <mdke> n p
[04:10] <rwabel> it's harddisk but it's disc
[04:10] <rwabel> I was looking on clonecd homepage
[04:11] <jsgotangco> im getting sleepy already
[04:11] <jsgotangco> and im in a shitty dial up in the middle of nowhereland
[04:12] <mdke> ;)
[04:12] <rwabel> dialup...what's thata again? ;-)
[04:12] <rwabel> mdke: [[TableOfContents] ]  didn't know about that...should use that in my howto's :-)
[04:13] <jsgotangco> :P
[04:13] <jsgotangco> i have off-site work
[04:13] <mdke> rwabel, where it helps, sure, use it!
[04:13] <rwabel> for sure in the long howto's with many heading
[04:13] <jsgotangco> i really hate it
[04:15] <mdke> my god these CC meetings are total crack
[04:15] <rwabel> mdke: can you take a look at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VegaStrike why did it parse wrong?
[04:16] <jsgotangco> come on make it start already im getting sleepy
[04:16] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:16] <mdke> rwabel, no spaces before or after headings, just a new line after
[04:17] <rwabel> ok
[04:19] <rwabel> wasn't my entery...didn't know that
[04:19] <rwabel> thanks
[04:19] <mdke> np
[04:21] <|rockinnerd|> <in cc meeting>
[04:21] <rwabel> damn I like our UserDocumentation!
[04:22] <kbrooks> <in cc meeting>
[04:22] <jsgotangco> dude, you're not in Italy but you're the italian team contact?
[04:25] <mdke> what can i say...
[04:26] <jsgotangco> maybe i should start the VaticanTeam
[04:28] <mdke> heh
[04:34] <mdke> see what I mean about the meetings being crack?
[04:35] <jsgotangco> we have a word for these kinds of people
[04:35] <jsgotangco> not so sure how it translates to english
[04:35] <robitaille> crack as being ????
[04:35] <mdke> crazy
[04:36] <jsgotangco> total crack
[04:36] <robitaille> yes a bit chaotic at time
[04:36] <mdke> what's your word for em?
[04:36] <mdke> in tl
[04:36] <jsgotangco> mdke: Pasaway
[04:36] <mdke> heh
[04:36] <mdke> i like it
[04:36] <jsgotangco> if i describe it correctly, its people who go way out of line and yet think they are on topic
[04:37] <mdke> yeah
[04:37] <robitaille> I find these CC more  and more not that intersting....it seems it's 95% approving meebers only, without much content until some squeezed at the time when being just want to go home.
[04:37] <mdke> did you see my 5 minutes in-out italian job?
[04:37] <mdke> easy
[04:37] <jsgotangco> the CC meetings before were quite better
[04:37] <mdke> yes they were better
[04:38] <robitaille> good wiki page mdke
[04:38] <mdke> the CC has become the place for people who want to appear important
[04:38] <jsgotangco> but i guess its understandable for a growing project
[04:39] <robitaille> I wonder if I should bring up again the question of @ubuntu.com addresses for members...
[04:39] <jsgotangco> for some reason, im beginning to like RHEL day by day (because of my current job)
[04:40] <kbrooks> jsgotangco: i agree that everyone is on crack
[04:41] <robitaille> I always like the old RHL, just before it turned to fedora; I'm guessimg it's similar.
[04:42] <jsgotangco> robitaille: RHEL is old fedora, much like how debian describes stable
[04:42] <robitaille> except for the price of RHEL :)
[04:42] <jsgotangco> at work, where i manage some oracle dbs, we still have rhel 2.1 which is basically rh 7.2
[04:42] <robitaille> but did played for a bit with WhiteBox linux.
[04:42] <jsgotangco> rh has incredible support though, very professional and at par with that of Oracle's
[04:51] <jsgotangco> MEDIAWIKI
[04:51] <jsgotangco> :P
[04:55] <jsgotangco> these italians...tsk tsk...*wink*
[04:56] <mdke> ;)
[04:56] <mdke> just because I'm doing it openly
[04:57] <mdke> all the other communities just did it
[04:57] <robitaille> at least the italian have a community and a wiki full of content...
[04:58] <mdke> what happened to sabmoc
[04:58] <mdke> he was cool
[04:58] <jsgotangco> heck i don't even want to think of ours, i'm the only one who knows how to party
[04:59] <robitaille> mdke:  he had some real-life-problems, so more or less just disapeared.  Haven't seem him online in weeks
[04:59] <mdke> ah shame
[04:59] <robitaille> yes
[04:59] <jsgotangco> hmm he was enthusiastic about stuff before
[04:59] <robitaille> I expect he will be back one day.  the problem had nothing to do with Ubuntu or computers
[05:02] <jsgotangco> this revu tool is really nice...
[05:04] <kbrooks> what is MOTU
[05:05] <jsgotangco> its the people who maintain Universe
[05:05] <jsgotangco> Masters Of The Universe
[05:05] <jsgotangco> heh
[05:05] <jsgotangco> and ogra's he-man
[05:16] <jsgotangco> wow using GAIM for IRC is nice and really colorful...
[05:16] <jsgotangco> unlike what im used to with ERC
[05:16] <kbrooks> xchat > gaim and erc on irc
[05:17] <jsgotangco> i rarely use xchat
[05:17] <jsgotangco> (rarely even use gnome lately)
[05:17] <kbrooks> i like gnome
[05:18] <jsgotangco> oh dont get me wrong i like it too...but im a keyboard person so...
[05:19] <robitaille> tried gaim for irc.  Didn't like it.  Liked xchat as well  But Love irssi.
[05:19] <mdke> its all about irssi
[05:19] <Kinnison> irssi-text is good
[05:23] <kbrooks> i like irssi
[05:23] <kbrooks> but console is evil to me
[05:23] <kbrooks> i'm sort of a linux newb
[05:23] <jsgotangco> we all start somewhere
[05:24] <kbrooks> seriously :P
[05:24] <jsgotangco> i actually tried running mIRC before when i first started in rh
[05:24] <robitaille> console is good...the console is your friend always there for you.  I have to reply to Corey's blog one of these days about the console.
[05:24] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:24] <jsgotangco> i guess he didn't really get to use DOS back then
[05:25] <jsgotangco> heck we rule back then
[05:25] <robitaille> on a more on-topic thing, why is udu wiki staying as a separate wiki for so long?
[05:25] <jsgotangco> wordstar, lotus 123, dbase 3+
[05:25] <robitaille> kids nowadays...they don't know anything but XWindows :)
[05:26] <jsgotangco> my cousin used to have a sinclair
[05:26] <jsgotangco> the thing only had like 6kb of memory
[05:26] <robitaille> my first computer was a commodore 64.  But I had many dreams of having of a vic-20 like my cousin
[05:27] <jsgotangco> did you have a trs-80? man everyone i knew who had one can program one-liner games back then
[05:28] <robitaille> my dad had a trs-80 for works;  so I couldn't really play with it.
[05:28] <jsgotangco> its so awesome i bugged my dad to buy me the portable version from tandy back then
[05:28] <robitaille> but we use to code small games for my Texas Instrument calculator.
[05:28] <jsgotangco> i still have it with me but it doesnt work anymore
[05:29] <jsgotangco> in RPN?
[05:30] <jsgotangco> i still have my HP 12C
[05:30] <robitaille> of course RPN.  Used to drive my firends crazy since they couldn't borrow my calculator
[05:30] <jsgotangco> (actually its my dad's)
[05:30] <robitaille> normal people couldn't deal very well with rpn back then
[05:32] <jsgotangco> yeah but people who still do RPN now are one of a kind :)
[05:34] <robitaille> my wife still has a rpn calculator; actually it is the only working calculator in the house :)
[05:34] <kbrooks> rpn?
[05:35] <jsgotangco> robitaille: see? :)
[05:35] <jsgotangco> kbrooks: Reverse Polish Notation
[05:38] <robitaille> http://www.hpmuseum.org/rpn.htm
[05:38] <jsgotangco> museum...it makes me look so old....
[05:39] <robitaille> we are old compared to some the kids in the Ubuntu community :)
[05:44] <jsgotangco> backports stuff
[05:44] <jsgotangco> bleahh
[05:44] <jsgotangco> afaic it should be well integrated into universe in the future
[05:46] <jsgotangco> aye
[05:46] <kbrooks> lol.
[05:47] <kbrooks> so... i implictly have a rpn
[05:47] <jsgotangco> next thing we'll see there will be gang wars
[05:47] <kbrooks> calucator
[05:48] <robitaille> it was simpler when only main was "official"...anything else (universe, backports....kde...)  was just unsupported and not to be named :)
[05:48] <jsgotangco> jiyuu0: do you work with backports on your guide?
[05:49] <mdke> jsgotangco, ermm....
[05:49] <jsgotangco> robitaille: i won't be surprised if we'll have our very own marillat in the future
[05:49] <mdke> every voice in that guide advises the addition of backports
[05:49] <jsgotangco> is that so, sorry i only touch universe
[05:50] <robitaille> isn't what hoary-extra is?  a marillat closer to ubuntu?
[05:50] <robitaille> personally I don't even use restricted or multiverse on my machines
[05:50] <mdke> jsgotangco, even the bit about how to install apache says "add backports"
[05:51] <jsgotangco> oh wow we're wild wild west then
[05:53] <kbrooks> jsgotangco: i agree with mako
[05:53] <kbrooks> talked too long
[05:53] <kbrooks> uh, never mind
[05:53] <kbrooks>  /notice
[05:54] <kbrooks> brb
[05:59] <jsgotangco> nice these Nigerian scam emails are getting better
[06:03] <jsgotangco> mdke: official is getting ridiculous as days go by
[06:11] <jsgotangco> jeezz i gotta sleep
[06:11] <jsgotangco> i'll see you guys later
[06:11] <jsgotangco> this meeting is taking too long
[06:11] <mdke> night jsgotangco
[06:14] <mgalvin> WOOHOO, commit access :)
[06:14] <mdke> mgalvin, :)
[06:14] <mdke> go crazy dude
[06:15] <mgalvin> oh i will ;)
[06:48] <mdke> aha
[06:49] <mdke> the galvin onslaught begins


[00:35] <frank23> in which branch is the most recent kubuntu documentation?   ubuntu-hardy/kubuntu or kubuntu-hardy/kubuntu ?  what's the difference betweeen the 2?
[00:49] <nixternal> kubuntu-hardy/kubuntu
[00:49] <nixternal> but nothing has been updated just yet
[00:50] <nixternal> we are waiting for GUI freeze so we can start the editing
[00:53] <frank23> That's what I figured. I was just trying to figure out bzr and building the documentation
[00:54] <frank23> I can build the kubuntu docs in the ubuntu-hardy branch but not in the kubuntu-hardy branch
[00:54] <nixternal> if you cd into the kubuntu directory, you should be able to easily run make in that directory
[00:54] <nixternal> I haven't tried building them in kubuntu-hardy, I may have to pull in some extra libs yet
[00:55] <nixternal> though, I thought I pulled in all of the necessary libs..I will have to check
[00:55] <nixternal> haven't had much doc time here recently
[00:55] <frank23> yeah I think there are things missing
[00:59] <nixternal> OK, thanks for bringing that up..I will go through and look in a little bit at what might be missing
[01:00] <frank23> ok
[01:01] <frank23> will there be separate documentation for kde3 and kde4 in hardy?
[01:02] <nixternal> ok, I am test building it now to see where it break
[01:02] <nixternal> for hardy we will have a little bit of KDE 4 docs
[01:02] <nixternal> our main push will obviously be for hard+1
[01:02] <nixternal> frank23: trying running:  make all
[01:03] <nixternal> it is building fine for me, the kubuntu-hardy branch
[01:03] <frank23> xsl:import : unable to load ubuntu/libs/ubuntu-banner.xsl
[01:04] <nixternal> what branch do you have checked out?
[01:04] <frank23> there is no ubuntu directory in the kubuntu-hardy branch
[01:04] <nixternal> we wouldn't use ubuntu-banner.xsl anyways
[01:05] <frank23> It's http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-hardy
[01:05] <nixternal> we use kubuntu-banner.xsl which is located in kubuntu/libs
[01:07] <frank23> I started with the http://calcium.ubuntu.com/~mdke/ubuntu-doc-initial.tar.bz2 then checked out kubuntu-hardy from the local shared repository then
[01:07] <frank23> then branched a working copy kubuntu-hardy.frank1
[01:08] <frank23> then frank@monster:~/ubuntu-bzr/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-hardy.frank1$ bzr merge https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-hardy
[01:08] <frank23> then commited that
[01:08] <nixternal> that is interesting
[01:08] <nixternal> something weird happened with your merge
[01:08] <frank23> I don't know bzr well at all
[01:09] <nixternal> obviously I don't either...I say at I am r3630 when there are obviously 3632 revisions
[01:09] <nixternal> guess bzr up doesn't work like I am used to
[01:09] <frank23> heh
[01:10] <nixternal> now we are at r3632
[01:10] <nixternal> let me try this again
[01:11] <nixternal> stupid bzr has to many ways to do the same thing
[01:11] <frank23> oh its working now
[01:12] <frank23> i ran make within the kubuntu subdirectory
[01:12] <nixternal> I was still able to build it fine with the latest checkout
[01:12] <nixternal> make all
[01:12] <nixternal> that is what you want to run with the Makefile
[01:13] <frank23> maybe the problem is with my makefile in the root directory of the kubuntu-hardy branch
[01:14] <nixternal> kubuntu-hardy/kubuntu
[01:14] <nixternal> ya, the makefile in the root directory is probably pretty banged up, and I don't think should be there actually
[01:14] <nixternal> it was used to build all of the docs at once for the website
[01:14] <frank23> I was trying to run make from kubuntu-hardy
[01:15] <frank23> that's probably all it was
[01:15] <nixternal> it is, because that make also tries to build Ubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu documentation
[01:15] <frank23> yep
[01:15] <nixternal> I will hack that really quick
[01:17] <frank23> Anyways I'd be interested in at least proofreading the kubuntu docs for hardy once they get going. I had worked a bit on the kubuntu dapper docs
[01:17] <nixternal> try and update your checkout, it should be fixed up now
[01:17] <nixternal> if it doesn't update right away, give it a few minutes and try again
[01:17] <nixternal> bzr is silly slow like that for some reason, or at least used to be
[01:18] <nixternal> 3634. By  Richard A. Johnson<EMAIL_ADDRESS>1 minute ago
[01:18] <nixternal> don't need this makefile anymore
[01:18] <nixternal> showing it on LP, so I am guessing it works quick now
[01:18] <frank23> ok i got the changes
[01:19] <nixternal> now the Makefiles should be in kubuntu/
[01:19] <nixternal> s/Makefiles/Makefile
[01:19] <frank23> ok
[01:23] <frank23> is kubuntu-kde4 just a copy of kubuntu right now?
[01:26] <nixternal> right now it is
[01:26] <nixternal> you planning on helping us out with some Kubuntu docs?
[01:27] <frank23> I could help some I think. not sure how much time I'll have
[01:27] <nixternal> I was going to say, I need to go through and create a TODO list pretty soon
[01:27] <nixternal> it could be small, or it could be large
[01:27]  * nixternal hopes for small
[01:27] <nixternal> my doc time is limited big time now by development time
[01:28] <nixternal> jenda: you still alive man? I haven't talked to you in ages
[01:28]  * nixternal throughs jono a Michael Jackson CD! That is real rock-n-roll man...
[01:28]  * nixternal pukes
[06:29] <Liz> rebooting brb
[08:28] <cwo_plin_plan_pG>  nnj
[19:46] <ubotu> New bug: #57831 in kdeadmin (main) "KDE Network Settings docs broken" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/57831


[00:07] <josharenson> I have a python script that is a wrapper for my build process. I'm currently using cmake as my plugin and my CMakeLists.txt just calls execute_process on the python script.  Should I just make the plugin python and name my script setup.py even though its not really a python module?
[00:07] <josharenson> I guess I could use make too...
[00:08] <josharenson> ^^ that actually worked pretty well
[00:10] <qengho> josharenson: Are you distributing some python, or something made with python?
[00:12] <josharenson> qengho: something made with python
[00:12] <qengho> I'd "build-packages" python, instead of "plugin: python". I think so. Not sure.
[00:13] <josharenson> qengho: Yeah I added python as a build-package and made this http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/16209847/ my makefile
[00:13] <josharenson> seems reasonable
[00:13] <qengho> Cool!
[00:14] <josharenson> qengho: yeah, thanks
[00:14] <qengho> You probably get a smaller package than with plugin-python.
[00:21] <ZenHarbinger> BTW, I did update the answer on askubuntu. that is all. 'nite!
[01:46] <sergiusens> elopio the last one https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/pull/499
[01:46]  * sergiusens goes to bed
[01:48] <elopio> good night.
[01:54] <swami> hi
[01:56] <swami> can someone help answer this question, posted in the dev mailing list? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2016-May/001802.html
[04:31] <example6> Hi guys. I'm trying to build a snap that just runs a shell script that runs a pre-built executable made for a specific system. Right now I'm just using the 'make' plugin to copy my files and wrapper into place, and I've added daemon: simple and my wrapper as a run command but it doesn't seem to be starting when I install or reboot. Any advice on making this happen?
[04:31] <example6> I can't seem to find any documentation on it
[07:25] <zyga> good morning
[07:33] <slvn> hello!
[07:34] <slvn> no bug report for today :)
[07:35] <slvn> just a question, I was wondering the signication, when publishing a snap, of "series : 15.04/rolling core, 16, rolling core" ?
[07:35] <zyga> slvn: well, it where is your snap going to work?
[07:36] <zyga> slvn: you should go with 16
[07:36] <zyga> slvn: that's "stable", that s what people will get
[07:37] <slvn> zyga, ok, it makes sense, that's what I chose
[07:39] <slvn> zyga, btw, I published a basic snap app, using SDL2, with SDL2 log debug enabled. may be useful for testing...
[07:40] <zyga> slvn: what is the name of the snap?
[07:40] <slvn> zyga, tic-tac-toe . At first, this is a mobile game, but it runs also on desktop.
[07:41] <slvn> (it's more like a testing sample for me, than a real app)
[07:44] <noizer> zyga: Hi I installed my rpi1 and looked if it is soft floating but it is hard floating how can that be?
[07:44] <zyga> it cannot
[07:44] <zyga> how did you check that?
[07:45] <noizer> they told me to look in the /lib dir
[07:45] <noizer> and there you can see arm-linux-gnueabihf
[07:46] <noizer> zyga or is there a way too see it better?
[07:48] <zyga> no, you seem to be right, one set
[07:49] <zyga> though not all is lost
[07:49] <zyga> you should be able to run an armel chroot now, let me show you how to make one
[07:49] <noizer> ok
[07:55] <zyga> noizer: trying now
[07:55] <noizer> zyga Ok :p
[08:03] <zyga> geez pi1 is slow like hell
[08:03] <zyga> it's happening, just ... ... ... slowly
[08:07] <noizer> zyga I know thats not realy fun
[08:08] <zyga> (in other news debootstrap is written in perl, perl is slow)
[08:14] <noizer> Maybe a other question about it. When I'm developing further on this application can i compile it then on the rpi3 or rpi2?
[08:18] <zyga> as long as you are in the armel chroot, yes
[08:20] <noizer> awesome :D
[08:21] <noizer> then it will be faster to compile on the armel chroot :D
[08:28] <zyga> noizer: anyway, you can give this a try, sudo debootstrap --arch=armel sid armel
[08:28] <zyga> noizer: this will create the directory "armel" with a debian chroot
[08:29] <noizer> debootstrap command not found :s
[08:40] <noizer> zyga how long does it take for debootstrap?
[08:43] <zyga> noizer: on pi1 ~ hour
[08:43] <zyga> on pc ~ minute
[08:43] <noizer> does we need to make it on rpi1?
[08:43] <zyga> yes
[08:43] <noizer> pfff hate that
[08:44] <zyga> it's possible to do on pc but stage 1/2 stuff is more complicated and you need to finish a lot of the slow part on the real hw anyway
[08:44] <noizer> zyga ok np i'll wait
[09:37] <noizer> zyga and  still busy with you?
[09:59] <mvo> ogra_: hm, what is up with livecd-rootfs in ppa:snappy-dev/image - can those changes get merged to trunk?
[10:00] <ogra_> mvo, sure ... thats effectively only the addition of uboot-tools to all arches (everything else was reverted again ...
[10:01] <ogra_> note that we still dont have an x86 uboot gadget, so we still dont know if uboot on x86 will work with the changes we did
[10:01] <mvo> ogra_: ok
[10:01] <mvo> ogra_: I have a trivial change for the new kernel spec :)
[10:01] <mvo> ogra_: I commited to trunk already and merged your stuff and uploaded, I was just surprised at first
[10:02] <ogra_> mvo, well, we dont use trunk in xenial ...
[10:03] <ogra_> (and i have set yakkety builds to manual, dailies come from xenial currently)
[10:03] <ogra_> (for cdimage that is)
[10:06] <mvo> ogra_: we use the ppa version in the xenial ppa, that is what you are saying, right?
[10:06] <ogra_> mvo, or if we delete that we use the xenial version from the xenial archive :)
[10:07] <ogra_> xenial images use the xenial livecd-rootfs ... we'd have to SRU the changes like with any other package
[10:08] <ogra_> thats what i mean ...
[10:09] <mvo> ogra_: *cough*
[10:09] <ogra_> *grin*
[11:09] <noizer> zyga: its done ove rhere
[11:09] <zyga> noizer: cool, chroot away
[11:09] <noizer> zyga ps how can i see its succesfully done?
[11:10] <zyga> noizer: if id crashed you'd know
[11:10] <noizer> because i got some warnings
[11:10] <zyga> like?
[11:12] <noizer> W:Failure while installing base packages
[11:12] <noizer> ...
[11:13] <zyga> anything more?
[11:13] <noizer> wait I will send you a picture
[11:14] <zyga> I recommend ssh, you can copy paste stuff
[11:14] <zyga> but a photo works too
[11:14] <noizer> haha i didn't use this time ssh
[11:15] <ogra_> and for taking the photo, we recommend using an ubuntu phone
[11:15] <ogra_> :)
[11:15] <noizer> hehehe I want the new ubuntu phone
[11:15] <zyga> you can then scp the photo off the phone :)
[11:15] <noizer> do you got an ubuntu phone?
[11:16]  * ogra_ has three ... and just ordered the MX5pro last week
[11:16] <ogra_> (but i used to work on the phone team before snappy :) )
[11:16] <noizer> http://imgur.com/Inp1Qm7
[11:17] <noizer> ogra_: ooh is it good the new ubuntu phone?
[11:17] <ogra_> can you push the bootstrap.log file somewhere ?
[11:17] <ogra_> noizer, i can tell you once i have it in my hands :)
[11:17] <noizer> ogra_: oooh ok xD
[11:17] <noizer> ps i try to push it
[11:17]  * ogra_ hopes it arrives before the sprint ... but my hopes are low
[11:18] <zyga> brb
[11:18] <ogra_> wait, are you trying to bootstrap armel on an armhf machine ?
[11:19] <noizer> http://pastebin.com/h0nBVQc8
[11:19] <noizer> on the raspberry pi 1
[11:19] <ogra_> cannot copy extracted data for './usr/share/man/man1/req.1ssl.gz' to '/usr/share/man/man1/req.1ssl.gz.dpkg-new': failed to write (No space left on device)
[11:19] <ogra_> there is your issue
[11:20] <noizer> omg
[11:20] <noizer> thats 8gb of space and not enough omg
[11:20] <noizer> or does i need to expand it maybe
[11:20] <ogra_> check with "df -h"
[11:21] <noizer> ogra_:  dammed only 4gb
[11:21] <noizer> how can i expand it easily?
[11:21] <ogra_> is that a snappy install ? +
[11:21] <noizer> raspbian
[11:21] <ogra_> ah
[11:22] <ogra_> no idea then ... i'D try with gparted
[11:22] <ogra_> (on the PC )
[11:22] <noizer> yea thats the way I always do it
[11:22] <zyga> noizer: there's something in raspi-config AFAIR
[11:23] <zyga> yep
[11:23] <zyga> sudo raspi-config
[11:23] <zyga> pick the expand filesystem option from the menu
[11:28] <noizer> debootstrap is started again
[12:03] <kyrofa> Good morning
[12:03] <sergiusens> good morning everyone!
[12:04] <sergiusens> mvo so follow up from my apt issues, this fixes it https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/pull/499
[12:25] <zyga> jdstrand: hey
[12:30] <kyrofa> sergiusens, meet in 30?
[12:30] <noizer> zyga can you tell me the following steps (raspi is still busy but i can prepare myself then)
[12:31] <zyga> noise][: bind mount /proc and /sys into the chroot, chroot inside, try to build your app
[12:32] <noizer> zyga chroot /path/to/dir
[12:33] <noizer> is it that you mean
[12:33] <noizer> of coure after bind mount ...
[12:33] <sergiusens> kyrofa maybe 45?
[12:34] <kyrofa> sergiusens, sounds good
[12:34] <zyga> noise][: chroot armel; if you followed the command I used earlire
[12:35] <noizer> Ok
[12:36] <noizer> hopefully is he almost done he is now reloving dependencies of base packages :s
[12:36] <ogra_> re loving :)
[12:36] <ogra_> love it back !
[12:37] <noizer> ogra_: hahahah xD sorry resolving :p:p
[12:37] <ogra_> :)
[12:38] <zyga> that reolves the situation
[12:38] <noizer> how is the ubuntu summit?
[12:38] <zyga> good
[12:39] <zyga> I always like the fact that UOS is recorded
[12:39] <zyga> UDS was fun but if you weren't there, you lost 90% of it
[12:39] <zyga> UOS is more egalitarian
[12:39] <noizer> heheheh xD
[13:13] <jdstrand> zyga: hi! :)
[13:13] <zyga> hey, good morning :)
[13:13] <jdstrand> good afternoon :)
[13:14] <zyga> jdstrand: I have an intereting bug, I have no idea what the cause is: https://bugs.launchpad.net/snappy/+bug/1578091
[13:14] <zyga> jdstrand: this breaks sdl (which I already fixed) but I wonder why this happens
[13:15] <jdstrand> let me check something
[13:15] <jdstrand> zyga: to be clear, the profile is otherwise in complain mode, it is loaded in the kernel and you are seeing an apparmor denial?
[13:15] <zyga> yes
[13:16] <zyga> no
[13:16] <zyga> not apparmor denial
[13:16] <zyga> I jus get EPERM
[13:16] <zyga> just run hello world and cat it
[13:16] <zyga> that's why I don't get it:)
[13:16] <jdstrand> what are the permissions on the file?
[13:16] <zyga> maybe /proc mount point something
[13:16] <zyga> r-r-r-
[13:16] <zyga> they are not the problem
[13:16] <zyga> no idea :)
[13:16] <jdstrand> zyga: can you access the file outside of confinement?
[13:16] <zyga> yes
[13:17] <jdstrand> ok, we have an explicit denial for that
[13:17] <jdstrand> deny @{PROC}/@{pid}/cmdline
[13:18] <jdstrand> I will need to talk to tyhicks or jjohansen on what complain mode is supposed to do wrt explicit denies
[13:18] <jdstrand> they'll be online a bit later
[13:19] <jdstrand> zyga: does the app work ok without it?
[13:20]  * jdstrand would think it is a bug in complain mode that it is enforcing an explicit deny
[13:21] <jjohansen> jdstrand: explicit denies override complain mode. Basically complain mode only applies to that which there isn't a rule for.
[13:21] <jdstrand> ok, I see
[13:21] <jdstrand> jjohansen: good morning-- I wasn't expecting you here now :)
[13:21] <zyga> no, it crashes
[13:21] <dholbach> sergiusens, kyrofa: will you be able to run the "how to snap your software" session later on yourself?
[13:21] <zyga> jdstrand: btw, why is this deny working even in complain mode
[13:21] <dholbach> it looks like I'm double-booked and would need to go to the CoC review session as well
[13:22] <jjohansen> zyga: because complain mode only applies to denials that are caused by missing rules, not for rules that already exist
[13:23] <zyga> ah, I see, thank you
[13:23] <sergiusens> dholbach we need a secretary
[13:23] <sergiusens> :-P
[13:23] <sergiusens> dholbach if you cannot I guess we have no choice, right? :-)
[13:24] <dholbach> sergiusens, theoretically it should just be a matter of setting up a hangout-on-air in your canonical account (if you have more than 10 participants) and adding the youtube link to summit
[13:24] <dholbach> sergiusens, if all else fails, I'd need to follow up with the CC on the CoC over email later on
[13:25] <jdstrand> zyga: ok, so if we have crashes then we should remove the explicit deny. I'll update the bug and assign to me.
[13:25] <zyga> jdstrand: thank you
[13:25] <zyga> jdstrand: if it is on the snappy side I can quickly remove that denial
[13:25] <zyga> jdstrand: I didn't look yet
[13:27] <jdstrand> zyga: I'd prefer the PR came from me (it is on the snappy side) since I want to update the comment, reference a bug, etc. I have a couple other things I want to adjust in the policy too. I can get to it today
[13:28] <zyga> sure, thank you :)
[13:28] <jdstrand> np
[13:30]  * zyga goes to send the fix to SDL upstream
[13:36] <dholbach> sergiusens, kyrofa, hum... same for the "snapcraft roadmap" session :-/
[13:38] <kyrofa> dholbach, understood. sergiusens do you have experience setting up the hangout-on-air?
[13:39] <kyrofa> dholbach, does that require a G+ account associated with the Canonical email?
[13:39] <sborovkov> zyga: Hello, did you succeed yesterday with your solution for shared memory?
[13:39] <dholbach> kyrofa, it can be your personal account as well if you don't plan to have more than 10 attendees
[13:40] <zyga> sborovkov: yes but it is so hacky that we'll work on a better solution that doesn't require code modification
[13:40] <zyga> sborovkov: as right now the "solution" requires snappy changes, ubuntu-core-launcher changes and a small helper library (I've published it at. ... )
[13:40] <zyga> sborovkov: I'll open a bug and collect all the details there
[13:41] <sborovkov> zyga: Oh. That's a lot of things. Is the proper solution going to be any time soon?
[13:41] <zyga> sborovkov: https://github.com/zyga/snappy-runtime-helper (though it's not useful really)
[13:41] <zyga> sborovkov: at around sru-2
[13:41] <zyga> sborovkov: ~2 weeks
[13:41] <zyga> +/- a week
[13:41] <sborovkov> zyga: got it
[13:41] <dholbach> kyrofa, looking for the link to the docs right now
[13:41] <zyga> sborovkov: I hope to have it merged before
[13:41] <zyga> sborovkov: this is the release time
[13:42] <dholbach> kyrofa, sergiusens: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS/Sessions :)
[13:42] <zyga> sborovkov: you can look at what my hack does above
[13:42] <kyrofa> dholbach, alright I can do it in that case (I already had a personal G+ before Canonical, and google doesn't let you merge them or anything)
[13:42] <zyga> sborovkov: but you will still need to change ubuntu-core-launcher to mkdir a directory for you
[13:42] <zyga> sborovkov: so that's a bit not optimal
[13:43] <sborovkov> zyga: understood
[13:43] <dholbach> kyrofa, sergiusens: you might have to change to the classic interface of Google+
[13:44] <dholbach> kyrofa, sergiusens: thanks guys - I'm sorry, but I just got dragged into the other meetings
[13:44] <kyrofa> dholbach, hey, you're an important guy!
[13:45] <dholbach> kyrofa, you too! :-)
[13:45] <sborovkov> zyga: can you post me the issue url when you create it, so I can keep track of this
[13:45] <kyrofa> dholbach, and no problem :)
[13:45] <zyga> sborovkov: gladly, I was actually getting started on this
[13:46] <sborovkov> thanks
[13:47] <kyrofa> dholbach, should I just give you the URL so you can update summit, then?
[13:48] <dholbach> kyrofa, you should be able to put it into "edit hangout details" on the session page in summit
[13:48] <dholbach> but I can do it for you too
[13:48] <dholbach> what's the link?
[13:48] <kyrofa> dholbach, all I see is "skip this session," so I must not have that capability
[13:48] <kyrofa> dholbach, can you give it to me?
[13:49] <dholbach> oh ok
[13:49] <dholbach> I set your attendance to required and thought that would do it
[13:49] <dholbach> just give me the link and I'll add it for you
[13:49] <dholbach> not sure what the issue is :-/
[13:50] <jdstrand> zyga: did you do the snappy side of SNAP_REVISION for shm? I'm in that file now and can do it as part of my PR if you haven't
[13:50] <zyga> jdstrand: one sec
[13:50] <zyga> jdstrand: I'm filing the bug now
[13:51] <zyga> jdstrand: we need to fix it buy you can reference a (good) bug :)
[13:52] <zyga> jdstrand, sborovkov: https://bugs.launchpad.net/snappy/+bug/1578217
[13:52] <dholbach> kyrofa, do you have the youtube link?
[13:52] <kyrofa> dholbach, event page: https://plus.google.com/events/cosa4a1b1rr2vv0kfiei60jq424
[13:52] <jdstrand> zyga: ok, I'll do the policy part of that
[13:52] <kyrofa> Oh youtube: http://youtu.be/ME_pLU9GMfo
[13:53] <zyga> jdstrand: great, thank you
[13:53] <dholbach> kyrofa, http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1605/meeting/22683/the-snapcraft-roadmap/ is updated O:-)
[13:53]  * zyga does a strong coffee in anticipation of UOS
[13:53] <dholbach> kyrofa, teamwork ⁵
[13:53] <kyrofa> dholbach, thank you! I'll ping you again for the next one :)
[13:53] <zyga> jdstrand: we should think about support for refreshing rules across sru updates
[13:53]  * dholbach hugs kyrofa :-)
[13:53] <dholbach> thanks!
[13:53] <zyga> jdstrand: my code that originally did this was rejected and we need a nice and elegant solution
[13:54] <zyga> jdstrand: (for stuff that changes in template.go)
[13:54] <jdstrand> yes
[13:54]  * kyrofa hugs dholbach back :)
[13:54] <sergiusens> kyrofa you got it, right? sorry was distracted!
[13:54] <kyrofa> sergiusens, no problem, yeah all set
[13:59] <sergiusens> kyrofa sort of
[13:59] <sergiusens> kyrofa forgot to check my hair
[13:59] <sergiusens> kyrofa where is the link to join?
[14:00] <kyrofa> sergiusens, hahaha, I just did the same
[14:02] <elopio> good morning.
[14:04] <jdstrand> zyga: well, that shm bug is asking for more than what I thought it was. I was just going to chop off SNAP_REVISION
[14:04] <jdstrand> zyga: please see my comment
[14:05] <zyga> checking
[14:05] <jdstrand> I imagine that pulseaudio will create the files underneath the bind mount and the client would never see them
[14:05] <zyga> jdstrand: hmm, you are right
[14:06] <jdstrand> zyga: we could instead allow creating files in the directory under an app-specific name
[14:06] <zyga> jdstrand: I'll test this with near-real changes, what I did was to mkdir the missing directories manually and to *not* adjust the policy but to use my hacky preload library (linked from the bug)
[14:07] <jdstrand> eg, /dev/shm/<snapname>.*
[14:07] <zyga> jdstrand: I'm not sure if it is the pulse client or server making those files in /dev/shm (in general) though, if it is the client and it shares the path via X11 ipc then we're in trouble
[14:07] <jdstrand> I have no idea
[14:07] <zyga> but without the bind mount it would mean that we need something like my preload helper to make this work which seems wrong
[14:08] <zyga> but I'll develop this further before we commit
[14:08] <jdstrand> I think we are introuble either way
[14:08] <zyga> yes, I fear you might be right
[14:08] <jdstrand> cause if the server creates it, it is under the mount and if the client creates it, it is in /dev/shm/snap/... (and the server won't know about it)
[14:09] <jdstrand> zyga: did you see my comment? we could allow app-specific names in the top level
[14:09] <zyga> jdstrand: we could ask someone that knows pulseaudio (or check ourselves); the problem is that we should not make this pulse specific :/
[14:09] <zyga> app-specific names won't work, many apps use a random ID
[14:09] <jdstrand> zyga: no, pulseaudio is but one example I know of
[14:10] <jdstrand> zyga: this is getting into an area where apps are going to need to work with the system. ie, they can't read arbitrary stuff our of /etc either
[14:10] <jdstrand> or write all over $HOME
[14:10] <zyga> jdstrand: yes, we should just estimate what is the better approach
[14:10] <zyga> jdstrand: let me do some more experiments
[14:10] <zyga> jdstrand: I'll check iff the bind mount would work
[14:10] <jdstrand> traditional apps are always going to butt up against the sandbox in some ways
[14:11] <zyga> jdstrand: with pulse
[14:11] <zyga> jdstrand: and if the top-level one would work as you suggested
[14:11] <jdstrand> ok
[14:11] <zyga> jdstrand: thanks for the insight, I totally didn't think about this
[14:11] <jdstrand> zyga: note the top-level one is obviously so we don't use a bind mount
[14:11] <zyga> right
[14:11] <jdstrand> ok, I'll leave this bit alone for now
[14:11] <zyga> sborovkov: what was the app you were interested in? webkit?
[14:12] <sborovkov> zyga: yes
[14:12] <zyga> sborovkov: thanks
[14:12] <jdstrand> chromium also suffers from this
[14:14] <jdstrand> zyga: note, on touch we allowed .org.chromium.Chromium.*. we could do the same for webkit and then also allow /dev/shm/snap.$SNAP.*
[14:15] <zyga> do you know if chromium was patched?
[14:15] <jdstrand> zyga: as a stop-gap until we get fuller apparmor mediation of shm
[14:15] <zyga> if it was then we can allow anything sane, if it *wasn't* patched then I'm interested in the technical bits that made it work
[14:15] <jdstrand> zyga: on Touch we provide oxide. our oxide was not patched to an app-specific patch (though it could/should have been)
[14:16] <jdstrand> zyga: the technical bits was that we allowed the path it (ie upstream) wanted
[14:16] <zyga> mmm
[14:16] <jdstrand> ie, we punted on Touch until we had fuller apparmor mediation of shm
[14:16] <zyga> I see
[14:16] <zyga> OK
[14:17] <jdstrand> so we have a choice to do the same here or to force devs to adjust their apps
[14:17] <jdstrand> assuming your bind mount investigation doesn't pan out
[14:17] <zyga> btw, the pulse exercise, I suspect that the snapped pulseaudio and deb-based pulseaudio would work makes the exercise more interesting
[14:17] <zyga> right?
[14:18] <jdstrand> snapped pulseaudio could not work I don't think cause its files would be in its snap-specific area that is not shared by the client's snap-specific area
[14:18] <jdstrand> unless we did some brittle heroics
[14:19] <jdstrand> I can't quite see how those heroics would work
[14:20] <ssweeny> is there a way to stop/start/restart a service within a snap?
[14:21] <sborovkov> ssweeny: systemctl?
[14:21] <jdstrand> maybe if there was a 'pulseaudio' dir in /dev/shm, then pulseaudio has a bind mount for it, so its writes to /dev/shm/pulseaudio... but that is really /dev/shm/pulasudio/pulseaudio.... then all the apps bind mount with passthrough /dev/shm/pulseaudio/... I'm not sure. this is getting weird
[14:21] <jdstrand> sborovkov: that won't work. apps can't use systemctl
[14:22] <jdstrand> ssweeny: you are free to stop and start daemons within your snap via signals, scripts, etc, but not systemctl
[14:22] <ssweeny> hmm
[14:22] <jdstrand> ssweeny: I suggest writing out a pidfile to $SNAP_DATA and then sending HUP or similar
[14:22] <zyga> ssweeny: proper API for service management is coming in a few weeks
[14:22] <ssweeny> ah, I see
[14:22] <zyga> ssweeny: we removed the older API because it had the wrong abstractions
[14:23] <zyga> ssweeny: more news after the sprint next week
[14:23] <jdstrand> zyga: are you talking about the snapd API for 'snappy service' that was removed?
[14:23] <zyga> yes
[14:23] <ssweeny> jdstrand, zyga, ok I can work around until the API is updated
[14:23] <ssweeny> thanks!
[14:23] <jdstrand> zyga: note, 'snappy service' couldn't be used by snaps to manipulate there snaps either
[14:23] <zyga> jdstrand: that's true, unless they had snapd-control
[14:24] <jdstrand> I can see that a properly designed API could be used
[14:24] <jdstrand> but snapd-control gives away way too much currently
[14:25] <ssweeny> my use case is that I have a runtime test fixture that stops the currently-running service and starts its own copy then when the test finishes it restarts the installed service
[14:25] <jdstrand> snapd could be designed to allow safe APIs though
[14:25] <zyga> jdstrand: yes, that's a good point
[14:25] <ssweeny> it'd be useful to expose that in a snap for developers but not critical
[14:25] <zyga> jdstrand: could use the peer info to allow self-managemnet
[14:25] <jdstrand> yes
[14:26] <jdstrand> but probably would need a safe socket and an unsafe socket and then have two different interfaces, one that anyone can use and one not
[14:43] <davidcalle> jamiebennett: thanks for the reports on the snapcraft doc, will be imported asap
[14:43] <jamiebennett> davidcalle, thanks. Not sure how much has already been fixed with didrocks update so will stop filing bugs until the new pages are live
[14:44] <davidcalle> dholbach: ^
[14:45] <davidcalle> dholbach: I'll do it after the scopes UOS session
[14:45] <dholbach> jamiebennett, which update? or which pages was this about?
[14:45] <davidcalle> dholbach: snapcraft intro tutorial
[14:45] <dholbach> ah ok
[14:46] <dholbach> davidcalle, I'm happy to help - just let me know
[14:46] <davidcalle> dholbach: thanks, no worries
[14:47] <qengho> Is that "ubuntu-device-flash" that ogra_ or mvo use to make images any different than the one in the repo? Obvious answer is yes, but not sure why.
[14:47] <ogra_> It moved forward since relase
[14:48] <jamiebennett> dholbach, talking to didrocks he has already made some changes to the documentation, pending review and upload by the community team. Do you have these changes?
[14:48] <qengho> ogra_: And that's not in yakkety or a PPA?
[14:48] <ogra_> nope
[14:48] <zyga> qengho: it is also a fork with different features
[14:48] <qengho> Where's the source?
[14:49] <zyga> qengho: we hope to merge it during the y cycle
[14:49] <dholbach> jamiebennett, no - did they land in snapcraft trunk or is this another page which just lives in the CMS?
[14:49] <zyga> qengho: probably in mvo's fork
[14:49] <ogra_> will be SRUed to xenial once the gadget and kernel formats are final
[14:49] <zyga> (branch on LP)
[14:49] <qengho> Suppose I want a binary for armhf. What branch?
[14:49] <jamiebennett> didrocks, ^^^ who has your doc changes?
[14:50] <jamiebennett> didrocks, Or did I misunderstand?
[14:50] <zyga> I don't really know
[14:50] <mvo> qengho: lp:~snappy-dev/goget-ubuntu-touch/all-snaps
[14:50] <mvo> qengho: let me know, if its too tricky to build I can do an arm version
[14:51] <dholbach> jamiebennett, a couple of things changed in snapcraft and snappy and we're going to pull in these changes, no problem
[14:51] <qengho> mvo: thanks.
[14:52] <dholbach> jamiebennett, but if there's anything else we can help with, we're happy to help obviously
[14:53] <jamiebennett> dholbach, Thanks. The docs in github are easier to change, the CMS changes we will need your help with.
[14:53] <dholbach> jamiebennett, some of the snappy/snapcraft people already have access to it, but sure, happy to help :)
[14:53] <jamiebennett> dholbach, Ah, OK
[14:56] <noizer> zyga debootstrap installed
[14:56] <sergiusens> jamiebennett can I get removed from owning doc changes? didrocks and asac have the same item; I am glad to help or even draft it though
[14:57] <noizer> zyga it was proc and sys that i needed to mount?
[14:57] <zyga> yes
[14:57] <zyga> mount --bind /proc /path/to/armel/proc
[14:57] <jamiebennett> sergiusens, sure, we can move that to didrocks with asac and you contributing
[14:57] <noizer> zyga same thing for sys?
[14:58]  * zyga -> session
[14:58] <zyga> yes
[14:58] <noizer> Ok xD
[14:58] <noizer> brb
[15:03] <didrocks> jamiebennett: dholbach: we were talking about the get starting
[15:03] <didrocks> not the upstream doc itself
[15:03] <didrocks> getting started*
[15:05] <dholbach> ah cool
[15:05] <dholbach> let's chat about this later on
[15:05] <jamiebennett> OK
[15:05] <dholbach> or... we're in the snappy docs: next steps session right now
[15:06] <dholbach> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1605/meeting/22673/snappy-docs-next-steps/ (or ping us for joining the hangout)
[15:08] <didrocks> dholbach: in meetings right now though :(
[15:08]  * dholbach hugs didrocks
[15:09] <dholbach> didrocks, let's chat after UOS then :)
[15:09]  * didrocks hugs dholbach
[15:09] <didrocks> yeah
[15:09] <dholbach> great - it's been a while :)
[15:14] <dduffey> lool, trying to build your quagga snap, looks like the custom plugin is not executing from the src directory ... I suspect an environmental variable change potentially?
[15:20] <lool> dduffey: I'm trying to build an upstream snap right now
[15:20] <lool> dduffey: (I had most of the reply written down, but wanted to go back with the start of an upstream snap)
[15:20] <dduffey> lool, sweet
[15:21] <lool> dduffey: not sure which custom plugin you mean?
[15:21] <dduffey> lool there were a few other things (patch failure, some yaml changes, etc.) ... but got stuck on when it runs the quagga build
[15:22] <dduffey> x-custom in:
[15:22] <dduffey> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lool/+junk/quagga-snap/view/head:/snapcraft.yaml
[15:22] <dduffey> when it runs dpkg-buildpackage, it looks like it is not running it from parts/quagga/src
[15:22] <dduffey> and I'm doing this from 16.04
[15:24] <lool> dduffey: Oh right, I think I was unpacking the package myself into the source tree; didn't want to check this in though
[15:26] <dduffey> lool I see that in the README, so I think I did the same ... i.e. parts/quagga/src has content (including debian/changelog), but the build fails saying it cannot find debian/changelog
[15:28] <lool> dduffey: afraid it escapes my mind; would you mind switching to the upstream snap instead?
[15:28] <dduffey> lool, yeah, where is it?
[15:29] <lool> dduffey: WIP  :-)
[15:29] <lool> I've started it with this email, almost have something building
[15:29] <dduffey> lool, ah, okay, I'll back off then :)
[15:31] <ysionneau> hmm which ubuntu package contains the "snappy" tool?
[15:31] <ysionneau> (to do "snappy build" to builda gadget snap)
[15:36] <sergiusens> ysionneau snapcraft build <dir>
[15:46] <ysionneau> sergiusens: if my gadget snap only has meta/snap.yaml, I can do snapcraft snap . ?
[15:46] <ysionneau> it seems to work and produces a squashfs
[15:48] <sergiusens> ysionneau correct; all gadgets can be built with snapcraft now
[15:49] <ysionneau> cool
[15:50] <ysionneau> for the kernel snap, it seems the 'kernel-device-tree', 'kernel-image-path' are not accepted anymore :o
[15:50] <ysionneau> correct ?
[15:52] <dholbach> kyrofa, let me know if you want me to add the youtube link for you :-)
[15:52] <sergiusens> ysionneau kernel-image-path is implied from target
[15:52] <sergiusens> ysionneau so yeah, that is gone
[15:53] <sergiusens> ysionneau the kernel-device-tree is missing an s
[15:53] <kyrofa> dholbach, yes please: https://plus.google.com/events/ck0qgm3n2q9tg977qlafvs217vo and http://youtu.be/qvlJlgVMML4
[15:53] <sergiusens> ysionneau `snapcraft help kernel` should be correct
[15:53] <dholbach> kyrofa, updated! :-)
[15:53] <dholbach> thanks!
[16:05] <jdstrand> zyga, niemeyer: fyi, bug #1578287
[16:06] <zyga> jdstrand: ack, I'll read it after the session
[16:08] <lool> dduffey: https://github.com/lool/quagga-snap
[16:09] <lool> dduffey: it's cargo-culted from the other one and was only build tested
[16:11] <ysionneau> sergiusens: ah thanks for the help !
[16:11] <ysionneau> (indeed trees is more correct)
[16:21] <niemeyer> jdstrand: Commented on the issue
[16:21] <niemeyer> zyga: ^
[16:24] <jdstrand> niemeyer: thanks
[16:24] <jdstrand> fwiw, I agree that snap interfaces slots then plugs order should not change
[16:28]  * zyga nods
[16:28] <zyga> I was thinking about it as well
[16:29] <zyga> I'd like to let people make it work in any order but fist ensure that we validate plug/slot uniqueness correctly
[16:29] <zyga> I also wonder how thish should look like on the REST API
[16:29] <zyga> I'd rather have the rest API precise unless we pass a flag that says otherwise
[16:29] <zyga> but perhaps that's not required
[16:29] <zyga> just worth thinking about the api apart from the UX
[17:30] <sergiusens> elopio is the testing infra broken?
[17:33] <zyga> sergiusens: some stuff were broken in the morning
[17:33] <zyga> sergiusens: both on IP connectivity and on what the stuff actually did
[17:38] <sergiusens> zyga ah, it failed immediately so that might be it
[18:55] <example6> Hi guys. Still struggling with this one problem of getting my snap to run automatically after install / reboot. Is there anything I should be putting in my Makefile to make this happen?
[18:56] <example6> in my apps: in snapcraft.yaml I just have one app that runs my wrapper as a daemon
[18:56] <example6> but it doesn't seem like the wrapper is being run at all
[19:10] <dpm> dholbach, so tomorrow I'll be back home for the snaps on desktop demo, so I should be able to run my main desktop and not have to worry about x86
[19:10] <dholbach> cool
[19:10] <dholbach> let's chat beforehand
[19:11] <dpm> sounds like a plan
[19:16] <zyga> example6: you want to use daemon: ... entry
[19:16] <zyga> example6: look at snapcraft examples
[19:16] <zyga> example6: there are existing things doing that
[19:32] <example6> zyga: that's what I did. I have daemon: simple along with my command: in my basic app. I can't seem to find any log of it failing however
[19:32] <example6> the command: just runs the wrapper script
[19:32] <zyga> example6: check if the systemd unit was generated in /etc/systemd/system/
[19:33] <zyga> example6: use systemctl to see if it was started
[19:33] <zyga> example6: use journalctl to see the logs
[19:33] <zyga> example6: try to install a snapcraft example and see it run
[19:33] <zyga> example6: and then iterate on it to look more like your snap
[19:33] <example6> alright, thank you zyga
[19:34] <zyga> example6: in the end it might fail because of confinement, try installing the snap with --devmode
[19:34] <example6> Good to know, thank you
[19:58]  * zyga -> EOD
[20:06] <blackout24> Hi, is there something like a sources.list file for snappy? How does it select the channel and the server to find the snaps from the store?
[20:06] <blackout24> Or is all of that hardcoded into the snap binary?
[20:22] <kgunn> blackout24: try snap --help
[20:23] <kgunn> snap list will show you what snaps are on the device
[20:23] <kgunn> unfortunately, as least that i know, no good way to see what's in the snap
[20:24] <kgunn> snap find will list the entire store if given on arg
[20:25] <kgunn> and for install, you can give a channel, but if you don't it'll use the device default (however the image is stitched i suppose)
[20:26] <blackout24> Ahh you misundertood me. I  mean if there is some file that specifies the server where snaps are fetched from.
[20:28] <pedronis> blackout24: the channel is selected per snap when one installs/refreshes (--channel argument)
[20:33] <pedronis> blackout24: there is nothing like sources.list, there will be ways to do offline installs but still secured by assertions etc, that's an area that will evolve over time
[20:33] <blackout24> thanks


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