[12:04] <sivang> is anyone using emacs21 under Xgl? ;-)
[12:09] <Burgwork> sivang, that is an ambomination
[12:10] <tseng> he spelled it wrong so
[12:10] <Burgwork> tseng, shhh! that was part of my "plan"
[12:10] <tseng> Burgwork: ah :D
[12:11] <sivang>   1. The feeling of extreme disgust and hatred; abhorrence;
[12:11] <sivang>         detestation; loathing; as, he holds tobacco in
[12:11] <sivang>         abomination.
[12:11] <sivang>         [1913 Webster]
[12:11] <sivang> ?
[12:11] <tseng> yes
[12:11] <sivang> heh
[12:11] <tseng> but used as a noun
[12:11] <Burgwork> sivang, running a dated piece of 70s technology on modern bling
[12:12] <sivang> hehe, indeed. What can I do if I got used to some of its niceities? ;-)
[12:12] <sivang> (./me thinks if there are any other py editor that do not suck)
[12:12] <trappist> sivang: I heard it fails in Xgl because it can't find rgb.txt, because the Xgl package was compiled with the wrong path to it
[12:13] <trappist> err because it can't find 'black' because no rgb.txt
[12:13] <sivang> trappist: do you happen to know the right path? My strace shows that it looks for it where I Put it, /etc/X11/rgb.txt
[12:14] <trappist> sivang: I just overheard this in #ubuntu-xgl or somewhere.  I have no first-hand knowledge of the problem.
[12:15] <sivang> trappist: okay, thanks anyway
[12:16] <sivang> Burgwork: I guess I'm a 70's hippie, after all :p
[12:16] <trappist> I can't talk compiz into using mesa's libGL, so I'm fantasizing about anything in wobbly mode.
[12:17] <Burgwork> to be honest, the most interesting thing I am looking forward to is expose-style window shrinking
[12:18] <trappist> it's all about the live thumbnail previews.
[12:24] <sivang> Burgwork: F12 does that for me
[12:24] <sivang> Burgwork: it's way cool, I agree. and very productive
[12:25] <Burgwork> sivang, vista has a cool feature on window switching
[12:25] <tseng> Burgwork: xgl has thumbnail preview on window switching too
[12:25] <tseng> if you turn it on
[12:25] <Burgwork> tseng, cool, haven't played with xgl yet
[12:25] <Seveas> xgl is a major cpu hog
[12:32] <dholbach> hey haggai
[12:33] <ploum> cassidy: http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?gallery/life-of-ploum/fosdem-2006/img00029  : some ubunteros @ FOSDEM sunday evening
[12:34] <cassidy> ploum: thx
[12:35] <cassidy> ahh i'm half hidden :p
[12:35] <ploum> I told you...
[12:35] <ploum> Scandaleux
[12:35] <cassidy> yep
[12:38] <sivang> Burgwork: I hope we can give a good competition with Xgl to vista..
[12:41] <ploum> Treenaks: ping ?
[12:42] <ploum> cassidy: it can be cool if we can give names to people on this picture. I can only say jdub, vuntz, ploum, kikidonk and cassidy
[12:43] <cassidy> ploum: the other guy with me is not involved in Ubuntu. And my 2 neighbors at the table either
[12:44] <ploum> oh... I tought
[12:44] <ploum> Next year, we will do an Ubuntu Room !
[12:45] <hunger> ploum: That would be great... then I might had actually found you guys.
[12:45] <cassidy> it means that we have to choice between GNOME and Ubuntu devroom. Big dilemma :)
[12:45] <ploum> cassidy: it would be indeed a big dilemna. But there are many ubuntu things to discuss
[12:46] <ploum> hunger: indeed, it was difficult to find Ubuntu fans
[12:46] <ploum> No stand, no room
[12:46] <ploum> Ubuntu-be will solve this problem next year :-)
[12:46] <cassidy> GNOME/Ubuntu entre les deux mon coeur balance ;)
[12:47] <hunger> ploum: A stand is not really important IMHO... the people coming to fosdem know about ubuntu anyway.
[12:47] <cassidy> ploum: ping me when the mailing list will be installed
[12:47] <ploum> hunger: I agree. That's why I think a room it's better
[12:47] <hunger> ploum: And the stands are in the hallways which are always so crowded that it is hard to stop and talk anyway.
[12:47] <cassidy> hunger: i agree. Discuss about specific ubuntu discuss and meet ubuntu fans is more interesting
[12:47] <cassidy> s/discuss/stuff
[12:48] <cassidy> (and drink beers ;)
[12:48] <ploum> cassidy: I will have to annoy jdub
[12:48] <cassidy> let him time to go back to his home :)
[12:49] <ploum> Anyone is aware of an easy way to convert a video to Theora/ogg ?
[12:49] <ploum> Pitivi doesn't work as well as the demo at FOSDEM !
[12:50] <hunger> ploum: What a surprise... ;-)
[12:50] <hunger> ploum: I am sure apparmour won't work as well either;-)
[12:50] <CarlFK> ploum: http://transcoding.org - easy once you have done it ;)
[12:51] <subterrific> i need help figuring out what component to report a bug against
[12:52] <ploum> CarlFK: isn't transcode a CLI tool ? (I'm just too lazy to read a man page like the mencoder one now)
[12:52] <ploum> hunger: I've heard about apparmour but I was not at the talk. Was it interesting ? what was the demo ?
[12:52] <CarlFK> ploum: yes, but there are some GUIs for it
[12:52] <ploum> subterrific: what's the bug ?
[12:52] <dholbach> good night everybody
[12:53] <ploum> good night
[12:53] <hunger> It is not as powerful as selinux, but it is way easier.
[12:53] <subterrific> i tried doing a flight-4 install and it failed because update-initramfs -u was saying "Kernel too old, requires 2.6.12 or greater". the problem was that the /boot partition i selected had old kernels on it from an old breezy install
[12:53] <hunger> ploum: The demo was writing a profile for a php-app in apache in less then 3 min.
[12:54] <subterrific> is that an initramfs-tools bug or debian-installer or what?
[12:54] <hunger> ploum: They got perl scripts to help with creating the profile... it just asks a couple of questions and you are done.
[12:54] <spacey> would be cool to have it packaged for dapper *hint*
[12:54] <spacey> although really late
[12:55] <hunger> spacey: Too late I think.
[12:55] <subterrific> i ended up fixing it by dropping into a console and removing all the symlinks and the old kernel from /boot and then rerunning update-initramfs -u
[12:55] <ploum> subterrific: hmmm. I'm not expert at all. I would say : report it again intramfs (it's the part that produce the error). It could be changed later if it's wrong
[12:55] <subterrific> ok, thanks
[12:55] <hunger> spacey: It needs to be started as early in the boot sequence as possible... I doubt that somebody may change the bootup process for that at this point in time.
[12:55] <ploum> hunger: seems intersting indeed.
[12:56] <spacey> hunger: yeah that would be a problem
[12:56] <hunger> ploum: Well, it is by far not as powerful as selinux...
[12:56] <ploum> I think that Dapper target is more Desktop. Apparmour seems to be mainly for servers
[12:56] <Burgwork> ploum, hunger, ajmitch_ is the right person to ask about selinux and apparmour
[12:56] <ploum> (of course there's Ubuntu Server ;-) )
[12:57] <Burgwork> ploum, dapper is targetted at everything and so is app armour
[12:57] <ploum> Burgwork: Apparmour on a desktop ? Really ?
[12:57] <hunger> ploum: Nope... he said he uses profiles for every app with network access (gaim, firefox) and pdf readers.
[12:57] <ploum> hunger: I'm not a selinux expert at all
[12:57] <Burgwork> ploum, it is very similar to selinux, with FC runs on their desktop
[12:57] <ploum> oh so..
[12:57] <hunger> ploum: Basically everything where there were recent exploits;-)
[12:58] <ajmitch_> afaik, we'd have to choose one or the other
[12:58] <ajmitch_> which won't be up to me
[12:59] <Burgwork> ajmitch_, what is your gut feeling? is the additional "complexity" of selinux worth it, due to the greater support for it?
[12:59] <hunger> ajmitch_: Not my task either... selinux is more powerful... but apparmour is way easier... I do not even want to decide that.
[12:59] <hunger> Burgwork: I'd personally go for apparmour...
[12:59] <ajmitch_> Burgwork: I feel selinux is a better choice, but that's from someone who hasn't looked at apparmour very hard
[12:59] <Burgwork> hunger, have you used either?
[01:00] <ploum> it's like choosing between Xgl and Aiglx (or whatever is the name) :-)
[01:00] <ajmitch_> ploum: I'm afraid it's not :)
[01:00] <hunger> Burgwork: I have not used apparmour... and I failed to get selinux configured, so I wouldn't listen to me if I had anything to say:-)
[01:01] <Burgwork> hunger, hence why I asked ajmitch_ ;)
[01:01] <setuid> Riddle me this, a source package for a dapper kernel should build out of the box, with debuild, right?
[01:01] <setuid> I mean... I'm _running_ the binary version of that kernel, so it built on at least 1 machine
[01:01] <ploum> ajmitch_: it was just a joke. I'm not at all in technical details
[01:01] <ajmitch_> setuid: yes, and I've built dapper kernels with just debuild (from the git tree)
[01:02] <Burgwork> ajmitch_, it seems the main selling point of apparmour is that selinux is "hard"
[01:02] <setuid> ajmitch_: Something is amiss with 2.6.15-16... gives me some weird error at boot about /dev/hda2 not existing, and dumps me to busybox
[01:02] <hunger> Burgwork: It was at the demo at fosdem.
[01:02] <ajmitch_> setuid: sounds like initramfs issues
[01:02] <setuid> But /dev/hda2 works fine, 2.6.12-10 is booted to it (but no fxlrx driver support in 2.6.12)
[01:02] <setuid> ajmitch_: Ok... lemme check that
[01:03] <setuid> initramfs support packages are onboard, what else should I poke at?
[01:03] <ajmitch_> Burgwork: of course, and having simplicity as a selling point of security isn't necessarily good
[01:03] <hunger> Burgwork: That and that apparmour works with all apps while selinux is supposed to have apps linked to some lib.
[01:03] <ajmitch_> hunger: vile lies :)
[01:04] <ajmitch_> hunger: a *few* apps get linked to libselinux, to get things like listing security contexts, etc
[01:04] <hunger> ajmitch_: I am just repeating what I heared. As I said: I was too stupid to work out selinux.
[01:05] <Burgwork> ajmitch_, I would love to see selinux or something similar for dapper+1
[01:05] <ajmitch_> hunger: no, integrating something like that into a distro is not easy
[01:05] <ajmitch_> it's not a matter of stupidity
[01:05] <ajmitch_> Burgwork: sure, and for a change there are others willing to help out, mainly in debian
[01:05] <Burgwork> seems like either apparmour or selinux is simply a lot of work, either way
[01:05] <hunger> ajmitch_: And frankly I do not feel comftable with the idea of having several independent sets of permissions (filesystem and selinux/apparmour whatever).
[01:05] <ajmitch_> there's a very capable team of people doing selinux in debian now
[01:05] <ploum> good night
[01:06] <Burgwork> ajmitch_, they might ship you to Germany in May if you offer to do selinux for dapper+1
[01:06] <ajmitch_> Burgwork: hah funny
[01:06] <Burgwork> ajmitch_, honestly, I would email Mark and say thta
[01:07] <Burgwork> because something like selinux would need to be decided as a goal at teh conference, due to its tentacles of doom nature
[01:07] <ajmitch_> Burgwork: what do you think I specced at the last 2 conferences?
[01:08] <Burgwork> indeed
[01:08] <hunger> Burgwork: And some really good docu will need to get written or too many people will just deactivate it (or - god forbid - leave for debian;-)
[01:09] <ajmitch_> hunger: fyi, https://alioth.debian.org/projects/selinux/
[01:11] <hunger> ajmitch_: I know there is a project about selinux in debian, but it will take AGES to get that done there (if at all). Ubuntu can be much faster if you guys ever set your mind on getting it in.
[01:12] <ajmitch_> hunger: who are these 'you guys' that are so willing to help out?
[01:12] <hunger> ajmitch_: The ubuntu developers. I am just a user listening in on you;-)
[01:12] <ajmitch_> the difference between ubuntu & debian is that there are people willing to do the work in debian
[01:13] <Burgwork> ok, I have now tried twice to kill the alternate init thread without success
[01:13] <ajmitch_> hunger: 'the developers' is a vague enough term - it's pretty much just been me who's cared in ubuntu
[01:13] <ajmitch_> Burgwork: some things just need to die naturally
[01:14] <Burgwork> ajmitch_, sadly yes. Until then, hundreds of people will have more crap in their inboxes
[01:14] <Burgwork> one thing I noticed about the Fedora devel list is they don;t have the same policy of shutting people down who are posting things that belong on other lists
[01:15] <ajmitch_> at least it's not as nasty as the python stuff thread
[01:15] <Burgwork> yes
[01:15] <hunger> ajmitch_: Maybe. But ubuntu has fewer developers that need convincing.
[01:15] <ajmitch_> where the developers were accused of all sorts of incompetence
[01:15] <ajmitch_> hunger: good, get to work convincing them
[01:16] <hunger> ajmitch_: Me? I'm just a user listening in here;-)
[01:16] <ajmitch_> yeah right
[01:16] <hunger> ajmitch_: And I am not convinced myself yet.
[01:16] <ajmitch_> saying 'the developers should..' without backing it up, is what doesn't work
[01:17] <ajmitch_> few developers means they're all stretched thin
[01:17] <hunger> ajmitch_: I personally think security should be tightened somehow, I am just not yet sure selinux is the thing for me.
[01:17] <j^> is network-manger broken by the latest gnome-keyring upload?
[01:18] <Burgwork> ajmitch_, to be fair to Ubuntu, it is much younger and the paid developers have a great deal on their plates
[01:18] <hunger> ajmitch_: As I said earlier: it basically introduces another priviledge system that is independent of the traditional filesystem descretionary one.
[01:19] <dieman> http://www1.umn.edu/ohr/employment/openings/job135042.html
[01:19] <dieman> bwhaha
[01:19] <dieman> ubuntu experience as part of the qualifications
[01:19] <dieman> (its a repost for an internal canidate due to stupid hr rules)
[01:19] <dieman> but still
[01:20] <Burgwork> dieman, where di you find that?
[01:21] <ajmitch_> hunger: which is the intended behaviour, because discretionary access control is seen to be limited
[01:21] <ajmitch_> dieman: at least it didn't mandate 3 years ubuntu experience
[01:22] <dieman> ajmitch_: ahahah
[01:22] <dieman> Burgwork: i work there
[01:22] <dieman> Burgwork: the posting is one of my coworkers who was on a 6month temp positing
[01:22] <dieman> this one is a 12mo temp posting
[01:22] <dieman> its hr hell
[01:22] <Burgwork> ah
[01:22] <ajmitch_> Burgwork: the developers having a lot on their plates is what I'm saying - there need to be very good reasons for resources to be allocated to tasks
[01:22] <dieman> you can't just 'make jobs'
[01:22] <Burgwork> there are good reasons for taht
[01:23] <hunger> ajmitch_: Yes, I see that. I wouldn't mind if the old one could get removed altogether (which is obviously impossible). It just sucks having two systems for the same thing.
[01:23] <subterrific> ok, one more question. after i got my flight-4 install to finish and then rebooted. it had set the grub root to (hd2,0) which was wrong and I was left with a 'Error 15: file not found' message. i had to manually change it to (hd0,0) so grub could find the kernel. what component is that a bug for?
[01:24] <ajmitch_> hunger: they complement each other - selinux takes DAC permissions into account as well
[01:24] <hunger> ajmitch_: So if I were convinced of selinux: What could I do to help in the limited time I have.
[01:24] <subterrific> grub-installer perhaps?
[01:25] <ajmitch_> hunger: we're past feature freeze for dapper - most work is in debian on the packaging of the reference policy right now
[01:25] <hunger> ajmitch_: Yes, to some extend. But having ACLs and owner-group-other permissions will confuse the hell out of me:-)
[01:26] <ajmitch_> once that is in a usable state (which I started work on), then testing & tools is what's important
[01:26] <ajmitch_> hunger: you generally don't need to worry about them
[01:26] <hunger> ajmitch_: I can test, I'll unable to stay on a stable system anyway:-)
[01:27] <hunger> ajmitch_: Oh, believe me: I will need to worry about them! I change too many things on my systems not to run into that at some point.
[01:27] <hunger> ajmitch_: Just tell me when there is anything to test. I'll do so if I have the time.
[01:27] <ajmitch_> ok
[01:28] <dieman> im still bummed out that i wont get to play with nfsv4 with dapper it sounds
[01:28] <dieman> since it breaks mounting sarge nfs userspace server mounts
[01:28] <dieman> no nfs filesystem acls for us just yet.
[01:33] <jdong> where would I go to ask questions about the Ubuntu website?
[01:33] <jdong> mainly relating to the licensing of the stylesheets
[01:34] <CarlFK> jdong: try /join #ubuntu-doc
[01:34] <jdong> thx
[01:38] <subterrific> ok, 3 bugs reported i encountered installing flight-4 last night: 33101, 33104, and 33106
[01:39] <Burgwork> subterrific, if they are filed, that is the correct place for disuccsion. I would also try the dailies
[01:46] <CarlFK> dapper installer errorrod, then hit 'go back" and dinked a bit - now I am looking at var/log/syslog tryihng to find the details of the error - what should I be searching for?
[01:46] <CarlFK> "[Ee] rror" isn't it
[01:47] <CarlFK> here is all 400k of it: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/temp/Feb27/e/log/syslog
[01:51] <CarlFK> found it
[01:51] <CarlFK> duh... ERROR
[01:51] <setuid> hrm, loop-aes-utils doesn't allow >128bit passwords!?
[01:52] <setuid> arg
[01:52] <setuid> ioctl: LOOP_SET_STATUS: Invalid argument, requested cipher or key length (256 bits) not supported by kernel
[01:52] <setuid> It worked in breezy, I wonder why it was crippled for dapper
[01:59] <jk-> Riddell: ping ?
[02:00] <hunger> setuid: loop-aes is deprecated anyway.
[02:02] <setuid> hunger: In favor of...?
[02:02] <setuid> hunger: I have a partition encrypted with aes256, and I need to access the data on it
[02:03] <setuid> losetup -e aes256 -C3 -S SuperSecret /dev/loop0 /dev/hdc1
[02:03] <setuid> blah blah
[02:03] <setuid> That doesn't work in dapper, works in breezy
[02:03] <mjr> are you sure you've installed the separate loop-aes kernel module in dapper?
[02:04] <setuid> Yep
[02:04] <hunger> setuid: Use devicemapper. loopaes has sever problems with its implementation and was deprecated.
[02:04] <setuid> hunger: Any docs on that?
[02:05] <hunger> setuid: google for cryptsetup:-)
[02:05] <setuid> I have that installed, problem is, I need to get into the partition as it is now
[02:05] <setuid> I can't just use cryptsetup, blow away 300GiB and start over
[02:06] <setuid> KNOPPIX can do it, but KNOPPIX (4.0.2) has *PITFULLY* slow usb implementation (200k/sec. max, over a usb2 that I get 40+MiB on regular transfers)
[02:07] <hunger> setuid: The algorithem for encryption is identical. It is just the hash alg. used to generate the key that differs.
[02:07] <setuid> Sure, which means it won't work
[02:07] <hunger> setuid: So you can make cryptsetup read loopaes partitions IIRc.
[02:07] <setuid> Note the -C3 above
[02:07] <hunger> setuid: "All" you need to do is find the right hash alg. and force cryptsetup to use that:-)
[02:08] <mjr> afaik cryptsetup is backwards-compatible with regular cryptoloop, but not loop-aes
[02:08] <setuid> Sure, and then hash it 3 times with my seed, which cryptsetup does not support
[02:08] <setuid> mjr: Correct
[02:08] <setuid> I'd just like to know why it was crippled in dapper, and not in breezy
[02:08] <hunger> setuid: Oh... then you are in trouble:-(
[02:08] <setuid> It may be deprecated, but functionality should not have been _removed_
[02:08] <mjr> seemed to have better options
[02:09] <mjr> what with the multi-key-3 mode
[02:09] <hunger> mjr: Have you looked into LUKS?
[02:09] <mjr> I've glanced at it
[02:09] <setuid> mjr: Got a dapper install somewhere?
[02:09] <mjr> on my laptop
[02:09] <hunger> mjr: Stores all the details for you and is way nicer then anything else I used so far.
[02:10] <mjr> (where there's no encryption as of yet)
[02:11] <mjr> ah well, I have the crypted fs mirrored so I can re-encrypt it easily by disengaging the mirror for a while, if need be
[02:11] <setuid> mjr: Just try to create a loopback file with aes256 under dapper
[02:11] <setuid> For some reason, it ignores 256 and 128-bit keys... probably some other bug lurking
[02:11] <hunger> setuid: There is a script to access loopaes on dmcrypt here: http://clemens.endorphin.org/Cryptoloop_Migration_Guide
[02:11] <setuid> hunger: I'm not using dmcrypt, but I'll take a look
[02:11] <hunger> setuid: Dunno whether that will work for you.
[02:13] <setuid> I'll just decrypt this, blow it away and rebuild it
[02:13] <setuid> I set it as xfs anyway, which is bad to do on a crypted volume anyway
[02:13] <mjr> setuid, sure you're using loop-aes-utils versions of losetup?
[02:13] <hunger> setuid: I'd recommend using devicemapper with LUKS then:-)
[02:13] <setuid> hunger: I need something that is distro-transparent, i.e. works with KNOPPIX and similar tools
[02:14] <setuid> mjr: Yes
[02:14] <hunger> setuid: Try the script... it should be able to mount loopaes volumes via devicemapper.
[02:15] <hunger> setuid: LUKS is meant to be distro-transparent. IIRC gnome-volume-manager supports it nowadays, so it can not be purely ubuntu;-)
[02:15] <mjr> hunger, that work for multi-key-modes 2 and 3 too?
[02:16] <setuid> hunger: Looks like that script is missing a good whack of functionality, specifically the target partition, mount point, seed and cipher number
[02:16] <hunger> mjr: It should with a bit of twiddling;-)
[02:16] <mjr> sure, anything works when you twiddle enough source code
[02:17] <setuid> Precisely ;)
[02:17] <hunger> mjr: calling hashalot several times should make that work I think. But I have never tried it, just stumbled over it googleing for setuid;-)
[02:17] <mjr> that just hashes the password
[02:18] <setuid> Yeah, this script is very non-functional
[02:18] <setuid> sigh
[02:18] <setuid> Thanks for the googling though
[02:19] <hunger> setuid: Too bad:-( I feel for you, I reencrypted my volumes several times so far as well:-(
[02:19] <mjr> pardon me, but my loop-aes setup has 64 different aes256 keys and one extra key for IV computation
[02:19] <mjr> I fail to see how this script makes use of that info
[02:20] <setuid> Mine is a bit simpler than that.
[02:20] <setuid> Which kernel module (besides aes and aes_i586) do I need?
[02:20] <setuid> min keysize  : 16
[02:20] <setuid> max keysize  : 32
[02:20] <setuid> ugh
[02:20] <hunger> mjr: Been a while since I used loopaes.
[02:21] <hunger> setuid: Tried using bytes instead of bits?
[02:21] <hunger> setuid: I guess you can't change that.
[02:21] <setuid> Nope
[02:24] <setuid> arg
[02:24] <setuid> # losetup -d /dev/loop0
[02:24] <setuid> ioctl: LOOP_CLR_FD: Device or resource busy
[02:24] <mjr> hmh, I'd have to check how luks handles multi-key and IV before switching to that...
[02:24] <setuid> This is so broken, I think I'm going to go back to Breezy or Sid
[02:28] <mjr> cbc-essiv, mmh
[03:06] <setuid> man, its taking this machine like 2 hours to build this kernel package... a normal (kernel.org) kernel build is like 7 minutes.
[03:19] <setuid> whoa, kernel just finished, now its doing modules. There must be some sort of a recursive loop here
[04:12] <CarlFK> someone want to throw me a Package Name for a bug on the installers partitioner
[04:15] <CarlFK> partconf-find-partitions
[04:34] <setuid> Ok, more snags... how the heck do I compile the vmware modules on a distro-supplied kernel? I'm in a catch-22. I can't run dapper without fglrx (ATI hard-locks Thinkpads), and I can't build my own kernel from source because fglrx doesn't build clean.
[04:34] <setuid> So I've got 2.6.15-16 installed, but now vmware wants kernel headers, but they don't exist, because this kernel was built as SMP, even on UP machines.
[04:34] <setuid> Arg!
[04:34] <setuid> So where are the headers for _this_ kernel?
[04:56] <pingu> I. Need to get a custom 2.6.15 kernel onto an AMD64 Ubuntu install CD.
[04:56] <pingu> Does anyone have any suggestions?
[05:10] <pingu> That would be a no :/
[05:18] <theCore> does anyone here know why Yelp doesn't render some characters?
[05:19] <theCore> I would like to fix that, as soon as possible, because it's really annoying
[05:27] <pingu> Does anyone here know anything about the install CD?
[05:28] <pingu> Can't seem to find where the modules go, there is a vmlinuz image in install though.
[05:28] <pingu> I somehow think replacing that just isn't going to do it for me.
[05:33] <TheMuso> pingu: They are in the initrd.gz image.
[05:34] <psusi> pingu, there's a howto on the wiki
[06:53] <pingu> Thanks TheMuso!
[06:53] <pingu> A little late, but thanks.
[06:53] <pingu> psusi, I've seen the one which mentions just editing preseeds.
[06:54] <pingu> But, I need a different kernel, that's a little beyond the preseed ;D
[06:57] <pingu> Is there any way I can get a snapshot of the current kernel used on the livecd, anyone?
[06:57] <pingu> As in, before it was compiled?
[07:00] <Kyral> uhh, linux-source from the Dapper Repos?
[07:03] <jk-> Lathiat: ping ?
[07:03] <pingu> Not dapper, but the install CD?
[07:04] <pingu> I'm specifically trying to get the sources of:
[07:04] <pingu> The AMD64 kernel booted on the 5.04 install CD.
[07:10] <infinity> pingu: Same answer.  If you want the kernel from 5.04, you want linux-source-2.6.10 from the hoary archive, if you want the kernel for 5.10, you want linux-source-2.6.12 from the breezy archive...
[07:18] <pingu> So the install CD.
[07:18] <pingu> Is just a stock kernel?
[07:18] <pingu> *install CD's kernel.
[07:19] <infinity> Yes.
[07:19] <Lathiat> jk-: pong
[07:19] <jk-> Lathiat: hey!
[07:21] <pingu> infinity: What about all those extra module packages, does the install CD shove those in the initrd too?
[07:27] <infinity> pingu: That's the idea, yes.  They're only broken out into seperate packages for the installer, they're all in one package on the installed system, but it's the same kernel build, just split differently.
[07:28] <pingu> Thanks for your help.
[08:00] <dholbach> good morning
[08:02] <pingu> Good afternoon.
[08:05] <LaserJock> good evening ;-)
[08:36] <pitti> Good morning
[09:08] <stub> Launchpad is going down in 15 minutes time, which will also put the wikis into read only mode. Estimated down time is 10 minutes.
[09:14] <Mez> mdz: ping
[09:15] <mvo> Mez: he might be sleeping, it's late in his TZ
[09:15] <Mez> it's for when he's back
[09:15] <mvo> k
[09:19] <Burglaptop> mvo: it is only just past midnight here
[09:20] <mvo> Burglaptop: some people consider this late ;) but you are right of course, it's not a unusual time
[09:38] <pingu> Oh noes. I'm still at work.
[09:38] <pingu> Bye everyone!
[09:46] <Kamion> CarlFK: by the way, I recommend just using "debian-installer" if you don't have sure knowledge of the correct component name rather than picking one that includes "part" in its name ;-)
[10:02] <sivang> morning everybody
[10:52] <Kamion> mvo: could apt.InstallProgress.updateInterface() perhaps call a method when the percentage/status changes and the status isn't pmerror or pmconffile?
[10:53] <Kamion> mvo: at the moment I don't really see how to properly handle percent/status changes without rewriting updateInterface, since the default implementation changes self.percent and self.status even for pmerror and pmconffile when the values will make no sense as percentages or statuses
[11:01] <Kamion> mvo: also using the errno module for EAGAIN would be better than hardcoding 11
[11:03] <pitti> infinity: do you think it'll be necessary to rename mozillla-thunderbird-locale-all as well? After all, these xpi are from official mozilla...
[11:03] <pitti> infinity: and we didn't rename mozilla-firefox-locale-all either
[11:03] <Kamion> mvo: and shouldn't you limit the split() to (status, pkg, percent, status_str) to 3 splits so that you don't inadvertently split on colons in status_str?
[11:05] <mvo> Kamion: hello, sorry, I got disconnected
[11:05] <mvo> Kamion: can you /msg me the bits I missed?
[11:13] <infinity> pitti: I'm not picky one way or the other, and I doubt they are either, but from a UI perspective, if you have a package called "thunderbird" installed, you're going to look for "thunderbird-*" packages to extend its functionality, not "mozilla-thunderbird-*"
[11:13] <cprov> slomo: ping
[11:19] <cprov> slomo: anyway, head-up on missing orig for liferea upload, see you later
[11:26] <slomo_> Kamion: hi... please move gtk-sharp to universe and gtk-sharp2 back to main :) gtk-sharp2 was approved already before breezy release and now nothing in main depends on gtk-sharp anymore
[11:34] <Kamion> is gtk-sharp2 just a renaming of gtk-sharp2-unstable?
[11:34] <slomo_> Kamion: yes
[11:37] <Kamion> gecko-sharp2 and gtk-sharp2 promoted; you might like to get somebody to look at seeding appropriate documentation packages from those sources
[11:38] <Kamion> gtk-sharp-gapi demoted, but according to anastacia the rest of the binaries from the gtk-sharp source are still in use somewhere
[11:39] <slomo_> Kamion: yes, tomboy depends on it currently and the version which uses gtk-sharp2 is on dep-wait atm... this will solve itself after the gtk#2 version of tomboy built?
[11:39] <Kamion> presumably
[11:39] <Kamion> until then it'll stay in main
[11:40] <slomo_> ok... shall i ping you when it built?
[11:40] <Kamion> also dbus Build-Depends-Indep: libgtk-cil
[11:40] <Kamion> no need, it'll show up in anastacia and there's usually no great rush for demotions anyway
[11:40] <slomo_> not anymore in the latest version of dbus
[11:41] <Kamion> I'm looking at dbus 0.60-6ubuntu1, which is the current version in dapper
[11:41] <slomo_> ok, thanks :)
[11:41] <Kamion> although it failed to build, but even so
[11:41] <slomo_> huh? i'll take a look at it
[11:43] <slomo_> Kamion: yes, was a mistake while merging dbus...
[11:51] <sabdfl> who moderates ubuntu-devel-announce?
[11:52] <pitti> sabdfl: Kamion at least
[11:53] <sabdfl> Kamion: could you give my post the go ahead when next you look at that queue please? not urgent
[11:53] <sabdfl> just a pointer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperIcons
[11:54] <dholbach> sabdfl: they look nice - who worked on those?
[11:55] <sabdfl> dholbach: professional icon team
[11:55] <Kamion> sabdfl: done
[11:55] <dholbach> Cool!
[11:55] <pitti> sabdfl: nice; SVG and all that?
[11:55] <sabdfl> jane and i leading the specification, jdub prioritising
[11:55] <tepsipakki> they indeed look great
[11:56] <jpatrick> tepsipakki++
[11:57] <tepsipakki> the cd/dvd-icons that specify which media it is.. just like on OSX ;)
[11:57] <tepsipakki> (which I haven't even used, just seen over the shoulder)
[11:57] <seb128> nice
[11:57] <Kamion> Keybuk: my bad on floppy, I misread the code
[11:57] <Kamion> Keybuk: ide-floppy as well?
[11:57] <Kamion> or will that be autoloaded?
[11:58] <Keybuk> I think ide-floppy will be autoloaded
[11:58] <Keybuk> SUBSYSTEM!="ide", GOTO="ide_end"
[11:58] <Keybuk> IMPORT{program}="ide_media --export $devpath"
[11:58] <Keybuk> ENV{IDE_MEDIA}=="floppy",               RUN+="/sbin/modprobe -Qba ide-floppy"
[11:58] <Keybuk> so yeah, that one's detectable
[11:59] <Keybuk> (ignoring the bug that udev doesn't work with anything above hdf :)
[12:01] <Kamion> Keybuk: ok - will adding floppy to /etc/modules close #32599?
[12:01] <Keybuk> yup
[12:01] <Kamion> ok
[12:06] <Kamion> Keybuk: the one concern I have is that modprobing floppy can be quite slow
[12:07] <Kamion> it certainly at least used to take a while in the installer on some machines, because it sat there synchronously trying to find floppy drives
[12:07] <Kamion>      - Use x rather than x in progress bar
[12:08] <Keybuk> Kamion: other than
[12:08] <Keybuk> probing it in the background, what other solution is there
[12:08] <Keybuk> like you say, the module itself looks for the drives
[12:08] <Kamion> Keybuk: well, yeah, I'm just bringing it up since you care about boot times
[12:08] <Keybuk> so until we load the module, we don't know that there *are* drives
[12:09] <Keybuk> while you're in there, could you remove mousedev from /etc/modules? :p
[12:09] <Keybuk> it's compiled in
[12:27] <tepsipakki> I have a intel-iMac at my disposal.. does the installer have any chance of working with that, or is it even considered to be supported hardware for dapper?
[12:31] <Kamion> tepsipakki: I doubt it'll work yet, but if you have it convenient then telling us where it breaks would be *very* helpful!
[12:32] <Kamion> I don't even know whether it has VESA compatibility
[12:32] <Kamion> tepsipakki: we (Canonical) have been trying to order one for testing, but as I understand it the order won't come through for a while yet
[12:33] <tseng> someone has hacked together a working knoppix cd with the relevant driver love
[12:33] <tepsipakki> Kamion: ok, I'll try to get it netboot ;)
[12:33] <tepsipakki> (whee, EFI looks nice ;)
[12:33] <Kamion> tepsipakki: doesn't it boot from CD?
[12:33] <tepsipakki> probably
[12:33] <tepsipakki> but that's lame ;)
[12:33] <Kamion> it would be a more helpful test I think
[12:34] <tepsipakki> ah, ok
[12:34] <Kamion> since practically nobody will netboot those things just yet
[12:34] <tepsipakki> hehe
[12:34] <Kamion> netboot would be good too, but it can come later ...
[12:34] <Kamion> tseng: do you have a URL?
[12:34] <tepsipakki> sure, is flight-4 the one to test=
[12:34] <tepsipakki> ?
[12:34] <tseng> Kamion: sure, lemme look
[12:36] <Kamion> tepsipakki: that or a current daily
[12:36] <Kamion> pitti: shouldn't locale-gen do mkdir -p "$SUPPORTED"? I have locales installed, but no /var/lib/locales/supported.d
[12:36] <Kamion> and locale-gen fails
[12:37] <pitti> right, it should
[12:37] <pitti> Kamion: ah, the preinst generates it, but only for upgrades
[12:38] <pitti> Kamion: will fix that
[12:38] <tseng> Kamion: http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/misc/linux/
[12:38] <tseng> Kamion: i thought this was a full knoppix iso, it seems to be something less
[12:39] <tseng> Kamion: but the experience seems to be relatively well documented
[12:45] <WaterSevenUb> pitti, dumb question. I may (or I should) close something like this https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/19474 given that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LangpacksDesktopfiles implemented?
[12:45] <Ubugtu> malone bug 19474 in Ubuntu "desktop file translations are not updated with langpacks" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
[12:47] <Kamion> hmm, so no BIOS, EFI only, that'll be interesting
[12:48] <Kamion> my impression is that we don't have free X drivers yet, so we're probably screwed on that front
[12:48] <Kamion> pitti: thanks
[12:48] <Kamion> but it may be possible to figure out how to produce a hybrid ISOLINUX/elilo ISO image
[12:48] <pitti> WaterSevenUb: right, thanks for reminding me; I'll close it
[12:49] <Mithrandir> Kamion: as long as you keep the VESA fb around, you should be able to run VESA, I think
[12:50] <Keybuk> Kamion: EFI is easy enough ... cf. ia64
[12:50] <Kamion> unfortunately the Intel reference EFI implementation is non-free
[12:50] <Kamion> Mithrandir: that seems to be what the mactel lot are doing, yes
[12:50] <Keybuk> I believe that people have them booting with elilo and keeping around the boot-loader framebuffer to get a console
[12:51] <Kamion> the mactel people are using GraphicsConsole.efi from the Intel EFI implementation to get the console, and then chaining to elilo
[12:51] <Keybuk> pitti: strange ... I just got my iAudio mounted as /media/sda1 not /media/iAudio
[12:51] <Kamion> unfortunately the former piece is non-free
[12:51] <WaterSevenUb> pitti, only the "assigned to" person can do it? the initial reporter can't or shouldn't do it?
[12:52] <pitti> WaterSevenUb: oh, I think everyone can
[12:54] <pitti> Keybuk: but sudo blkid /dev/sda1 can figure out the label?
[12:55] <Keybuk> /dev/sda1: LABEL="iAudio" UUID="43DB-3ADE" TYPE="vfat"
[12:55] <Keybuk> it's worked every single time except for today
[12:55] <Keybuk> hal got upgraded yesterday
[12:55] <Kamion> hmm, and Apple's EFI implementation apparently doesn't support UDF or ElTorito
[12:56] <pitti> Keybuk: indeed, for my USB stick, too
[12:56] <pitti> Keybuk: thanks for pointing that out, I'll investigate
[12:56] <Treenaks> pitti: btw, the mounter doesn't look in the right place for the label with LUKS-encrypted volumes
[12:57] <pitti> Treenaks: we currently can't support label reading on crypto devices
[12:57] <Treenaks> pitti: I think it looks at /dev/sda1 (the original place) instead of /dev/mapper/_dev_sda1 (the dm_crypt mapped one)
[12:57] <pitti> we will in dapper+1
[12:57] <Treenaks> pitti: cool
[12:57] <pitti> when we switch to gnome-mount
[12:57] <pitti> but that's too late for dapper
[12:57] <Keybuk> pitti: volume.label is right in hal-d-m
[12:57] <Keybuk> what's gnome-mount?
[12:57] <Kamion> oh, actually, a hybrid El Torito / HFS+ image like we use for powerpc would probably do it
[12:58] <pitti> Keybuk: a wrapper around hal's new Volume method to read user's gconf settings and so on
[12:58] <pitti> Keybuk: at least that's what it's meant to be
[12:58] <Treenaks> pitti: replacement for g-v-m?
[12:58] <pitti> right now it doesn't evaluate any gconf settings
[12:58] <Treenaks> pitti: or replacement for pmount?
[12:58] <pitti> Treenaks: neither
[12:59] <pitti> Treenaks: replacement for the hal fdi files which determined policy
[12:59] <Treenaks> extra layer between those two?
[12:59] <pitti> Treenaks: once we can make hal to handle the VOlume methods in a safe fashion, we could drop pmount for that
[12:59] <pitti> or change gnome-mount to use pmount, whatever we like
[01:00] <pitti> right now I disabled mounting through hal since it's nowhere near safe
[01:19] <pitti> Keybuk: ah, bug 33120 matches your problem :)
[01:19] <Ubugtu> malone bug 33120 in hal "HAL 0.5.7 broke /media/{labelname}" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33120
[01:20] <Keybuk> you don't keep an eye on your incoming bugs too, eh? :p
[01:20] <pitti> I just did the first time for today
[01:21] <Keybuk> I don't know why I don't ... there's something about the way Malone floods you with incoming e-mail that makes it damned hard to deal with my "bugs" folder
[01:21] <Keybuk> if I could put my finger on it, I'd file a bug
[01:21] <pitti> Keybuk: mail works pretty fine IMHO, but browsing in the UI sucks a lot
[01:22] <pitti> but Malones' email interface was broken a few days back, too, which hurted a lot
[01:22] <Keybuk> yeah, the UI seriously needs a "show me all bugs I probably care about" mode
[01:22] <pitti> ... on *one* page
[01:22] <Keybuk> rather than the kooky "bugs I'm assigned to" thing, which misses all the new ones
[01:22] <Keybuk> totally
[01:24] <siretart> isn't that wat 'subscribed bugs' are supposed to be
[01:25] <Keybuk> pitti: I do wish Malone wouldn't mail me my own bug traffic sometimes though
[01:25] <Keybuk> I clear out the bugs folder, do a bunch of stuff, and have to clear it out again
[01:25] <Keybuk> siretart: that doesn't seem to include Assigned bugs
[01:25] <Keybuk> I have bugs in my assigned list that aren't in that one
[01:26] <Keybuk> you seem to be able to be assigned but not subscribed
[01:26] <Keybuk> not to mention subscribed includes reported bugs, which I don't want to see when I'm in a "things I need to fix" mood
[01:26] <siretart> thats strange
[01:27] <siretart> usually, when I think that somebody should look at, but I don't want to assign him this bug, I subscribe him and make a comment. so he gets the email
[01:27] <ogra> Keybuk, just get a secretary :)
[01:27] <Keybuk> siretart: heh, I hate it when people do that ... because I nearly always miss the context of when they subscribed me
[01:27] <Keybuk> the UI doesn't say "YOU WERE SUBSCRIBED HERE" in the list of comments
[01:28] <Keybuk> so I'll read the first 3 or 4, decide the bug has nothing to do with me, and unsubscribe again
[01:28] <Keybuk> then discover later than the 15th or 16th comment explained why I was copied in
[01:29] <siretart> Keybuk: I see. I try to avoid that by giving the reason for subscribing (you) in the very first comment after subscribing. But I see your point
[01:32] <Keybuk> siretart: yeah, I make sure I put the person's name in the comment, then they can grep the UI for it
[01:32] <Keybuk> usually at the start, e.g. "Kamion, can you ..."
[01:42] <siretart> right
[01:43] <siretart> btw, does anyone know if madwifi-ng is going into dapper?
[01:43] <siretart> I've seen some test packages from infinity, but they seem not to be in dapper yet. I've yet noticed 'scanning problems' in recent madwifi uploads
[01:44] <Keybuk> most likely not
[01:44] <Keybuk> seb128: ping?
[01:44] <seb128> Keybuk: pong
[01:45] <Keybuk> seb128: you remember I told you that Monospace was "dancing" in gnome-terminal
[01:45] <Keybuk> I managed to capture it
[01:45] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/dance.gif
[01:45] <Keybuk> (or just the sequence: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/dance.png)
[01:45] <Treenaks> Keybuk: !! we love you!
[01:45] <Treenaks> Keybuk: I have this all the time
[01:45] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: shiny
[01:45] <Mithrandir> try turning off gif animations.
[01:45] <Mithrandir> :-P
[01:46] <seb128> ah, nice :)
[01:46] <Keybuk> ahh, I'm glad I'm able to hit Mithrandir in real life <g>
[01:46] <Keybuk> seb128: where should I file the bug?
[01:46] <seb128> Keybuk: that is a good question ... and I'm not sure. I would try vte :)
[01:47] <dholbach> seb128: say something we don't have anything to do with... say freetype or something
[01:47] <Treenaks> dholbach: 'X bug'
[01:47] <seb128> dholbach: you do freetype ...
[01:47] <dholbach> i don't
[01:47] <dholbach> seb128: Riddell touched it last
[01:47] <dholbach> woohoo!
[01:48] <seb128> ah, nice :)
[01:48] <Mithrandir> f is almost g, so that clearly falls into the jurisdiction of the gnome team.
[01:48] <Mithrandir> I love the concept of "touched it last" maintainers
[01:48] <seb128> we have been relocated
[01:48] <seb128> we are "Desktop Team" now :)
[01:48] <Mithrandir> so you get all the d* and the g* packages?
[01:48] <dholbach> f...
[01:48] <Keybuk> and the f packages
[01:48] <Treenaks> seb128: you do KDE and XFCE too now?
[01:48] <seb128> Treenaks: no way :p
[01:48] <Mithrandir> desktop is almost spelt with an f.
[01:49] <Treenaks> dethktop
[01:49] <Mithrandir> defcop
[01:49] <seb128> and no, we don't do dpkg
[01:49] <Mithrandir> dpkg is love
[01:49] <Keybuk> Package: dpkg
[01:49] <Keybuk> Maintainer: Tollef
[01:49] <Keybuk> muahaha
[01:50] <Keybuk> nah, you're safe from dpkg ... iwj touched it last
[01:50] <Mithrandir> the loop is complete.  The universe may die now?
[01:53] <G0SUB> hello! there is a bug in malone #1299
[01:53] <Ubugtu> malone bug 1299 in librmagick-ruby "Image.read(filename) eats characters from filename" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/1299
[01:53] <G0SUB> the only way to fix it is to backport the latest version to Breezy
[01:53] <Keybuk> bah
[01:54] <Keybuk> launchpad doesn't know person "treenaks"
[01:54] <Treenaks> Keybuk: it knows 'martijn' though
[01:54] <Keybuk> Treenaks: I went for van de streeeeeeek
[01:54] <G0SUB> i am fixing it ... will you guys review it and upload?
[01:54] <Keybuk> and now I'm going to file another annoying launchpad ui
[01:55] <Keybuk> the fact you have to open and close the drop down without changing it to MAKE THE DAMNED FORM SUBMIT
[01:59] <infinity> Keybuk: That's because buttons are *SO* last year.
[01:59] <Keybuk> right, bug 33145 filed
[01:59] <Ubugtu> malone bug 33145 in malone "Cannot submit form if Person requires clarifying without doing a non-obvious no-op" [Critical,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33145
[02:01] <Keybuk> and bug 33144 for seb128 and dholbach :)
[02:01] <Ubugtu> malone bug 33144 in vte "Bold fonts do the mambo" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33144
[02:03] <HiddenWolf> Well, at's least it's a cheery bug. :)
[02:08] <seb128> Keybuk: do you use a special tex mode?
[02:09] <Keybuk> seb128: just the default one, why?
[02:10] <seb128> Keybuk: because my tex mode doesn't looks the same and doesn't use bold fonts, but it might be a custom one
[02:10] <Treenaks> Keybuk: my comment added
[02:12] <Keybuk> seb128: odd, I don't even fiddle with fontification uch, just force global-font-lock-mode on as usual
[02:12] <Keybuk> obviously it's not just the TeX mode that shows it up ;)  but that happens to be what I'm doing currently
[02:13] <Treenaks> Keybuk: it's reproducible in vim perl mode as well, just use that ;)
[02:13] <Keybuk> and a treenaks points out, not just emacs
[02:13] <seb128> I've no bold font with vim and syntax on a perl stuff neither
[02:13] <Keybuk> Treenaks: you forget what company I work for ... using Perl is a sackable offense
[02:13] <seb128> what font do you guys use?
[02:13] <Keybuk> Monospace
[02:13] <Treenaks> Keybuk: Not using perl is, for me...
[02:13] <Treenaks> 'Monospace 7' here
[02:14] <Keybuk> Bitstream Vera Sans Mono
[02:14] <Treenaks> (yes, 7)
[02:14] <Keybuk> Monospace 10
[02:14] <Keybuk> at 75dpi
[02:14] <Treenaks>   resolution:    99x98 dots per inch
[02:14] <Keybuk> (though I see it on my desktop at 96 dpi too)
[02:14] <Keybuk> Treenaks: check System -> Preferences -> Fonts -> Details
[02:14] <Treenaks> 96
[02:15] <Keybuk> seb128: Subpixel Full RGB
[02:15] <Keybuk> (for the rest of the details)
[02:15] <Treenaks> same here
[02:17] <seb128> k, I get it too
[02:21] <sivang> Kinnison: ping, have you managed to solve your emacs problem under Xgl?
[02:22] <slomo_> Kinnison: short question... would it be possible or is it planned to open a bug automatically when a package FTBFS (and close when package builds fine again, reopen when it fails again + comment with buildlog etc)?
[02:22] <Kinnison> sivang: no, sorry
[02:22] <Keybuk> slomo_: that way lies madness
[02:22] <Kinnison> indeed
[02:22] <Kinnison> madness
[02:22] <Keybuk> packages fail to build for more reasons than you'd believe
[02:22] <Keybuk> Jeff uploads new glibc, after a day of every single upload generating a new bug report every hour, we'd kill him
[02:22] <Keybuk> and we need Jeff
[02:23] <slomo_> hm ok... but some kind of FTBFS notification would be nice ;)
[02:23] <Keybuk> we have them
[02:23] <Keybuk> it's called "infinity"
[02:23] <Keybuk> and if you care more than waiting until Adam notices, the build logs are available on Launchpad for your own interest
[02:23] <Keybuk> usually if you upload and care, you'll notice binaries not showing up in short order, and investigate yourself
[02:24] <Keybuk> Kinnison: some kind of bayesian analysis of build logs? :p
[02:24] <slomo_> Keybuk: yes sure... i care for my uploads but what is with automatic syncs after dapper?
[02:24] <Keybuk> train crm114 to detect failed builds, and successful builds
[02:25] <zakame> ooh madness!
[02:25] <Keybuk> slomo_: they'll get noticed by buildd admins, who'll file a bug in the right place
[02:25] <zakame> hi everyone
[02:25] <slomo_> Keybuk: sounds ok... but much work for them when they do that for universe too
[02:26] <infinity> slomo_: It's my intention, once finer-grained ACLs are done in launchpad's buildd interface, to train a well-trusted MOTU and get him to handle some of the workload for universe buildd wrangling.
[02:27] <zakame> infinity: I'm interested :)
[02:27] <infinity> slomo_: I suspect this is a post-dapper goal, given how many other features we need in place before that.  But it'll happen.
[02:29] <slomo_> infinity: thanks :) it isn't that urgent right now as now everybody should care for their uploads and nothing is getting in automatically ;)
[02:38] <setuid> What provides the /media/* hookups? udev? For some reason, I only have /media/sdc1 style mounts, not /media/usbdisk-1, and so on.
[02:39] <Mithrandir> setuid: gnome-volume-manager and pmount-hal
[02:39] <setuid> Ok, I have gnome-volume-manager and pmount installed, what must I tweak?
[02:40] <Mithrandir> setuid: it ought to just work
[02:41] <Keybuk> setuid: bug 33120
[02:41] <Ubugtu> malone bug 33120 in hal "HAL 0.5.7 broke /media/{labelname}" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33120
[02:44] <Keybuk> seb128: odd, I get NXDOMAIN for qa.mandriva.com
[02:44] <Keybuk> actually, not true, I get SERVFAIL
[02:46] <seb128> WFM
[02:47] <Keybuk> Treenaks: hand it to Tollef, I'm at his office
[02:47] <ogra> ogra@edubuntu:~$ host qa.mandriva.com
[02:47] <ogra> Host qa.mandriva.com not found: 2(SERVFAIL)
[02:47] <ogra> same here
[02:47] <Keybuk> grr ... gnome-terminal is now doing its "I'm not going to start another one, ha-ha" bug
[02:48] <Keybuk> Treenaks: just tried a scratch recursive lookup, and the dns server is definitely down -- it must be in your cache
[02:48] <Treenaks> Keybuk: hm.. ok
[02:49] <seb128> $ host qa.mandriva.com
[02:49] <seb128> qa.mandriva.com has address <IP_ADDRESS>
[02:49] <Mithrandir> host is useless for DNS debugging
[02:49] <setuid> Some weirdness with nautilus too, probably related.
[02:49] <setuid> No icons show on the desktop
[02:49] <seb128> Mithrandir: I don't want to debug, that was just to point the IP
[02:49] <seb128> setuid: no, that's a gconf setting
[02:50] <seb128> /apps/nautilus/desktop/volumes_visible
[02:50] <setuid> seb128: Oh? I wonder why that default changed from Breezy to Dapper
[02:50] <seb128> and /system/storage stuff
[02:50] <ogra> Mithrandir, for the firts debugging step (does it resolve ?) its enough ;)
[02:50] <ogra> *first
[02:51] <seb128> setuid: because that's an unstable version you are trying, upstream did some changes and we didn't clean up the way we want yey
[02:51] <setuid> Yep
[02:51] <seb128> yey -> yet
[02:55] <ogra> Keybuk, can you get www.mandriva.com ? they seem to have a bigger problem ... that one resolvs bit the webserver seems broken
[02:58] <Keybuk> ogra: I can
[02:59] <ogra> hmm, i'm redircted to wwwnew.m.c which doesnt load
[03:09] <tepsipakki> hmm, the x86-iMac doesn't show the daily-install-cdrom as a bootable media.. I'll try netboot
[03:20] <ogra> whaa, what made my edubuntu CD explode ?
[03:21] <zul> you stickeed it in the microwave? ;)
[03:22] <ogra> *sigh* example-content is 8MB big ? no way for edubuntu ....
[03:22] <pitti> setuid: yes, known bug, as Keybuk said
[03:23] <pitti> ogra: 8 MB?? holy...
[03:23] <setuid> pitti: Right, trying to fix that up now
[03:23] <pitti> setuid: I will fix it ASAP
[03:23] <ogra> pitti, yup :/ no way i can make so much space on any edubuntu Cd
[03:23] <setuid> Need to locate 0.5.6-4ubuntu4
[03:23] <seb128> I think that example-content is a waste of CD space
[03:23] <ogra> seb128, ++
[03:23] <seb128> it's not useful for an installation
[03:24] <pitti> seb128: it's nice for the live CD, though
[03:24] <seb128> I can get the point for a demo liveCD, but on a desktop ...
[03:24] <seb128> pitti: right
[03:25] <ogra> for edubuntu it doesnt even fit on the liveCD ...
[03:27] <Riddell> Kamion: patch for espresso to make usersetup.py UI independent http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/espresso.diff
[03:33] <Keybuk> seb128: bug 33153 ... any other debugging info I can provide while the bug is still hot and reproducible?
[03:33] <Ubugtu> malone bug 33153 in gnome-terminal "Factory refuses to spawn new terminals" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33153
[03:34] <Keybuk> (if not, I'll kill the running factory and the bug will go away for a while)
[03:34] <seb128> Keybuk: does starting an xterm work?
[03:34] <Keybuk> yes
[03:34] <Keybuk> also gnome-terminal --disable-factory works
[03:34] <seb128> so that's not the same bug as pitti got
[03:35] <Kamion> Riddell: thanks, applying (with a trivial rearrangement in gtkui.py)
[03:35] <seb128> Keybuk: nop, not really. I'll ping upstream and ask you if they need anything next time you face the issue
[03:35] <Keybuk> ok, it happens about once every day or two, so won't be long before I can debug it again <g>
[03:37] <Keybuk> damn, had a cool rhythmbox bug there
[03:37] <Keybuk> but didn't screenshot it in time
[03:37] <Keybuk> "Now playing" ... and an empty notify popup :)
[03:37] <Keybuk> MYSTERY TRACK!
[03:38] <Treenaks> Keybuk: hidden bonus track!
[03:38] <Keybuk> now that reminds me of those cute intro quizzes people did for a while
[03:38] <seb128> do you have any special char?
[03:38] <Keybuk> and the silly person who managed to copy the id3 tags into the files
[03:38] <seb128> there is an escaping issue fixed with the CVS
[03:38] <seb128> I've to backport the patch on my list
[03:38] <Keybuk> seb128: if & is special, yes
[03:38] <seb128> yep, it has to be escaped
[03:38] <seb128> probably that bug
[03:38] <Keybuk> ok, won't bother with that one then
[03:39] <seb128> Keybuk: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=330784
[03:39] <Ubugtu> gnome2 bug 330784 in User Interface "Notification bubble shows empty" [Trivial,Resolved: fixed]
[03:39] <seb128> for the record
[03:43] <seb128> Diziet: around?
[03:47] <tepsipakki> Kamion: x86-iMac support for the installer would need an elilo.efi loader, and some kernel patches I think: http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/misc/knoppix/
[03:49] <Kamion> tepsipakki: yep, already found that link
[03:49] <Kamion> or been pointed to it, whichever
[03:50] <Diziet> seb128: Hello.
[03:50] <seb128> Diziet: hi :)
[03:50] <Diziet> (Just happened to glance at IRC.  In general, if you actually want an answer in a timely fashion, feel free to phone.  Email is good too.)
[03:50] <seb128> Diziet: do you think that the "open with" dropped from firefox will stay that way?
[03:50] <Kamion> tepsipakki: we need the patches filed as bugs in the relevant places, and some clue about how to build CDs in a way that the Intel Macs can boot
[03:50] <Diziet> I haven't read the flamewar^Wdiscussion today yet.  It depends what people thing.
[03:50] <Diziet> Err, think.
[03:51] <Diziet> Why ?
[03:51] <seb128> Diziet: no hurry, I replied on the list about your firefox mail and you got a bug but didn't comment on any
[03:51] <seb128> Diziet: it breaks all the stuff using gecko
[03:51] <Kamion> tepsipakki: the latter I think can probably be done using a hybrid ISO9660/HFS+ filesystem the way we do on powerpc already, but it isn't entirely clear
[03:51] <seb128> Diziet: so I have to let know upstream if they should put some special workaround for Ubuntu and if I should start patching epiphany, galeon, etc
[03:51] <Diziet> seb128: I saw your bug report about gecko.  Can you explain ?
[03:52] <Diziet> I mean, why doesn't it just do the nice (or nasty, depending on your opinion) thing for gecko-embedders too ?
[03:52] <seb128> epiphany has an option "automatic download"
[03:52] <seb128> which allows to get stuff automatically open
[03:52] <seb128> or to get the "save as or open" dialog if not used
[03:53] <seb128> your change break the option
[03:53] <seb128> it automatically opens all the time now
[03:53] <seb128> and store stuff to /tmp
[03:53] <pitti> slomo: mono-tools, nunit, nant approved for main
[03:53] <Diziet> Oh, you probably don't have the download manager disappearing again, either.
[03:53] <seb128> Diziet: the guy who opened https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/32934 is epiphany upstream
[03:53] <Ubugtu> malone bug 32934 in firefox "auto-download breaks embedders" [Normal,Confirmed]
[03:53] <Diziet> (Really I wish these things didn't turn up in the download manager.)
[03:54] <seb128> Diziet: so feel free to ask any technical question you want on the bug
[03:54] <slomo_> pitti: cool thanks :) is it too late for a new maininclusionreport (liferea)?
[03:54] <Diziet> They're not downloads.
[03:54] <Diziet> Yes.
[03:54] <pitti> slomo_: no, promotions/demotions can happen for a while still
[03:54] <Diziet> So that breaks epiphany.  But what about the other gecko-embedders ?
[03:54] <Diziet> I mean, I could just move the pref out of gecko into firefox (effectively), I think.
[03:55] <slomo_> pitti: ok... a package in main is dependening on a binary package out of mono-tools... so i don't have to do anything for these 3?
[03:55] <pitti> Kamion: btw, racoon promotion is fine (source in main since warty), and libpng source-only promotion too (source renamed from libpng3)
[03:56] <pitti> slomo_: 'these 3'?
[03:56] <pitti> slomo_: you can consider mono-tools in main now
[03:56] <seb128> Diziet: better to reply on the malone bug imho, upstream know the code better
[03:56] <Kamion> pitti: done, thanks
[03:56] <pitti> slomo_: (for the purpose of a new main inclusion report, that is)
[03:56] <seb128> he did some comments on IRC friday
  +  if (!(NS_SUCCEEDED(rv) && defPrefBranch)) return PR_TRUE;
  who wrote that!?
  NS_FAILED exists for a reason :p
[03:56] <seb128> by example
[03:57] <seb128> Diziet: as I got it, right it would be nice to move the pref from gecko to firefox
[03:58] <Kamion> Riddell: uploaded
[03:58] <Diziet> seb128: re NS_FAILED: uh,  I wrote  !(NS_SUCCEEDED(rv) &&   not   (!NS_SUCCEEDED(rv) &&
[03:58] <Diziet> And why is he trying to do code review feedback by IRC ??
[03:59] <seb128> Diziet: no, he was just looking on the patch
[03:59] <tepsipakki> Kamion: I'll see what can be done.. but the machine is here maybe for a week, so it won't be here for testing after that ;)
[03:59] <Diziet> OK, I'll reply to the bug.
[03:59] <pitti> Kamion: may I bother you with approving culmus for breezy-updates? (cprov wanted to have a test package)
[03:59] <Diziet> looking on the patch == reviewing the code
[03:59] <seb128> Diziet: that come that way, nobody warned them about the changes, and they started getting bugs on epiphany
[03:59] <seb128> Diziet: so they looked on what we did
[03:59] <seb128> ie: got the firefox diff and looked on what the diff do :)
[04:00] <seb128> I think that was just some "talking on IRC while reading the patch"
[04:00] <slomo_> pitti: ok, so these 3 (mono-tools, nunit, nant) only have to be added to the overrides by Kamion and everything is fine?
[04:00] <seb128> anyway chpe opened the bug, so better to reply on it and ask whatever might be useful for you
[04:00] <pitti> slomo_: right, anastacia already wants mono-tools, so germinate-wise they are fine
[04:00] <seb128> Diziet: thank you
[04:00] <Diziet> I did suggest he should mail ubuntu-devel but I don't think he did.
[04:01] <seb128> I don't think they are subscribes to ubuntu-devel
[04:01] <seb128> subscribed
[04:01] <pitti> slomo_: if some binaries of mono-tools are not caught by dependencies, then we might need to explicitly seed them, though; please just tell us in this case
[04:02] <slomo_> pitti: ok :) hmm, i'll fix dbus now (still FTBFS)... or are you already doing it?
[04:03] <pitti> slomo_: hm, it worked here (I could reproduce the former FTBFS)
[04:03] <pitti> slomo_: last time I checked it wasn't attempted to build yet
[04:03] <slomo_> pitti: i don't understand the current ftbfs yet :)
[04:04] <pitti> WTF???
[04:04] <pitti> slomo_: I removed all autotools stuff  from my system and it built fine *sigh*
[04:04] <pitti> slomo_: I'm currenlty a bit busy, so if you have time and want to fix it, go ahead :)
[04:05] <pitti> otherwise I try to look into it later today
[04:05] <slomo_> pitti: i'll take a look at it ;) are you still doing the reports?
[04:05] <pitti> yes
[04:06] <pitti> trying to reduce the queue a bit :)
[04:13] <pitti> slomo_: do you use liferea heavily? how stable and user friendly is it?
[04:16] <slomo_> pitti: i use it always ;) i never had a crash with the latest versions on ppc or x86, only amd64 is a bit crashy currently but this could also be a problem in the libraries below (i.e. glib, pango, gtkhtml)... it's imho easy to use... i don't know what could be done better but i'm probably the wrong to ask regarding user friendlyness as i'm using it since ages
[04:16] <pitti> alright, so it's not brand new unstable crack then?
[04:17] <slomo_> no... first upload to debian was 2004, the app itself exists even longer, maybe 2002... we had it since warty
[04:19] <pitti> slomo_: I installed and started it; two thirds of the articles are empty, and it crashed after a few clicks with a segfault (amd64)
[04:21] <slomo_> pitti: uh... what feeds do you have in there? and segfaults on amd64 are normal unfortunately... sometimes it happens instantly, sometimes after a day of use... that's what i meant with crashy on amd64 above
[04:21] <pitti> slomo_: just the default one (mozillaZine I think)
[04:22] <slomo_> pitti: ah wait... you mean the article summaries are empty? that happens when there's no summary for the article in the feed which is the case for most feeds of news sites :/ you can get the article by double clicking on it
[04:22] <pitti> slomo_: ah, I see
[04:23] <pitti> slomo_: the back trace looks quite useful
[04:23] <pitti> slomo_: maybe you can take a look at it?
[04:23] <slomo_> pitti: sure... paste it somewhere :)
[04:23] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, hello
[04:23] <AlinuxOS> mjg59,  around ?
[04:23] <AlinuxOS> pitti, hello ;)
[04:24] <pitti> slomo_: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9541
[04:24] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Hi
[04:25] <pitti> slomo_: it calls _gdk_x11_convert_to_format() with a NULL pointer argument, should be quite obvious
[04:25] <pitti> hi mjg59, how are you?
[04:25] <slomo_> pitti: oh, that's something new i never saw before... the bug i meant is bug 4732
[04:25] <Ubugtu> malone bug 4732 in liferea "liferea crashes when it jumps to a new article" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4732
[04:25] <mjg59> Stuck clearing a lab
[04:25] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, I've talked with pitti yesterday...
[04:25] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Ok
[04:25] <AlinuxOS> he told me that he needs georgian font-s source package :)
[04:26] <mjg59> ?
[04:26] <mjg59> They're in the archive
[04:26] <tepsipakki> Kamion: uh, the kernel-diff is 2MB.. I believe this won't make it in for dapper ;)
[04:26] <pitti> mjg59: oh, I could only find your deb on the URL stated in the bug report
[04:26] <mantiena-baltix> hi doko
[04:26] <pitti> mjg59: so much the better, great :)
[04:27] <mjg59> pitti: They're supposed to be in universe
[04:27] <mjg59> I uploaded some time ago
[04:27] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, yes 2 weeks ago I suppose
[04:27] <mdke> jdub, the planet rss20.xml feed is broken again.
[04:27] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, what about changes of default font for Gnome interface ?
[04:28] <slomo_> pitti: thanks... hmm... there's no function from liferea called so can we assume that the bug is somewhere outside liferea?
[04:28] <pitti> mjg59: do you see an easy way to (ab-)use dbus' at_console policy check so that other programs (like g-v-m) can call a dummy function to check whether they are on a currently active display?
[04:28] <AlinuxOS> BPG_Chveulebrivi.ttf  BPG_Courier.ttf  BPG_Glaho.ttf this free fonts are contained in .deb package
[04:28] <Treenaks> mdke: that error is WEIRD!
[04:28] <AlinuxOS> BPG_Glaho.ttf is most sutable for GNOME interface
[04:28] <mdke> Treenaks, due to & char I suppose
[04:28] <AlinuxOS> but by default there is BPG_Courier.ttf
[04:29] <pitti> slomo_: not necessarily; something likely passes wrong (i. e. NULL) arguments down the chain
[04:29] <Treenaks> mdke: hmm. yeah, I see
[04:29] <mjg59> pitti: Not really. The Right Answer is to use Davidz's spec
[04:29] <mjg59> (That he's just posted a first cut of)
[04:29] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, is there some techniques that can change default font for GNOME interface ?
[04:30] <pitti> AlinuxOS: I already told you, it needs proper fontconfig changes
[04:30] <AlinuxOS> example BPG_Courier.ttf to BPG_Glaho.ttf
[04:30] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: It needs Fontconfig work, but unfortunately I don't understand fontconfig
[04:30] <ogra> pitti, whats the advantage of a dbus function over getenv("DISPLAY") ?
[04:30] <slomo_> pitti: hm, when does this happen? and is it reproducible always?
[04:30] <AlinuxOS> pitti, yes you've told me but I don't know who can change things there ?
[04:31] <pitti> ogra:  that doesn't help me to detect whether the app is on the current foreground console
[04:31] <AlinuxOS> and who is mantainer ?
[04:31] <AlinuxOS> maybe I can talk with a mantainer about this ? :)
[04:31] <pitti> slomo_: I reproduced it twice in a row without any difficulty
[04:31] <ogra> pitti, ah
[04:32] <pitti> mjg59: where did he post his spec? in his blog?
[04:33] <slomo_> pitti: interesting... it isn't that easy on the amd64 of my brother... well, defer the report for now until i ping you again about it ;) interesting thing is, that nobody in debian had this problem on amd64
[04:35] <Hirion> slomo_, sometimes liferea crashes after a few minutes, sometimes after some hours...
[04:37] <mjg59> pitti: Yes
[04:37] <AlinuxOS> who is Keith Packard ? :)
[04:37] <AlinuxOS> maybe he is here .)
[04:37] <AlinuxOS> :D
[04:38] <Treenaks> AlinuxOS: I saw him at FOSDEM
[04:38] <AlinuxOS> :)
[04:38] <AlinuxOS> he is fontconfig mantainer :)
[04:38] <AlinuxOS> or packages :)
[04:38] <AlinuxOS> packager for debian :)
[04:42] <jono> heya sabdfl
[04:46] (koke/#ubuntu-devel) There are some missing translations in dapper, but they are ok in /usr/share/locale-langpack
[04:46] <koke> (the tooltips of Applications/System/Places)
[04:47] <koke> but the menus are translated
[04:47] <slomo_> pitti: are you using the gtkhtml or mozilla renderer? please try with liferea-mozilla (and set this in the preferences of liferea)
[04:49] <jono> Keybuk, oi!
[04:49] <jono> :)
[04:49] <jono> Keybuk, hows it going pal?
[04:49] <Keybuk> cold - but otherwise good
[04:50] <jono> Keybuk, are you in brum?
[04:50] <Keybuk> no, Oslo
[04:50] <jono> oh really?
[04:50] <Keybuk> I get about a bit :)
[04:50] <jono> Keybuk, oh yeah, you said you would be away for a bit
[04:50] <jono> heh
[04:50] <jono> how is it there, apart from cold?
[04:50] <sivang> Keybuk: what are you doing over incol oslo ? :) (/me guesses working with tollef)
[04:51] <ogra> hum
[04:51] <Mithrandir> sivang: making snowmen.
[04:51] <Mithrandir> :-)
[04:51] <ogra> does xlibs-static-pic have an successor ? does anybody know the name ?
[04:51] <Mithrandir> ogra: no, it doesn't. Why do you need it?
[04:52] <ogra> Mithrandir, vlc build deps on it ...
[04:52] <sivang> Mithrandir: heh, /me wishes for some snow instead of the desert dust that been rulling in Tel Aviv lately
[04:52] <ogra> i was just about to fix screensaver stuff in there and do a testbuild ...
[04:52] <Keybuk> jono: mostly just cold actually
[04:53] <Mithrandir> ogra: which parts does it need?
[04:53] <AlinuxOS> pitti, I'll mail fontconfig package mantainer about bpg-georgian-fonts problems. ;)
[04:53] <Keybuk> there's probably some other stuff, but I'm TOO COLD to think about it
[04:53] <Keybuk> ;)
[04:53] <Keybuk> hmm, how unsufferably British of me, bitching about the weather
[04:53] <jono> heh
[04:53] <jono> Keybuk, yes indeed, I assume you are sat there in your Union Jack shorts
[04:53] <jono> :P
[04:54] <pitti> AlinuxOS: great
[04:54] <ogra> Mithrandir, no idea its in the build-deps is all i know for now
[04:54] <Mithrandir> ogra: find out, then
[04:55] <ogra> ENOCRIMSUN :(
[04:55] <AlinuxOS> pitti, will this package by default in Dapper Drake ?
[04:55] <AlinuxOS> to have native support of georgian language  ?
[04:55] <pitti> AlinuxOS: this sentence no verb :)
[04:55] <pitti> AlinuxOS: we can include the font if it's fontconfig'ed properly, yes
[04:56] <AlinuxOS> pitti, I have a soultion :) maybe you can include only BPG_Glaho.ttf font :)
[04:56] <AlinuxOS> it's most usable and better than other
[04:56] <pitti> that still reqires fontconfig'ing
[04:57] <AlinuxOS> and other fonts can be added later from another package
[04:57] <pitti> but I always appreciate reducing package size :)
[04:57] <AlinuxOS> pitti, :) consider that BPG_Glaho.ttf is the main font for gnome interface.
[04:57] <AlinuxOS> it's only 149K
[04:57] <pitti> AlinuxOS: what did you have to do to make it work properly, apart from installing hte deb?
[04:58] <AlinuxOS> other fonts are not requred for georgianisation of gnome :)
[04:58] <pitti> did you manually configure it in the gnome font dialog?
[04:58] <AlinuxOS> no
[04:58] <AlinuxOS> .D
[04:58] <AlinuxOS> I've removede other 2 fonts :)
[04:58] <AlinuxOS> I don't need them for interface.
[04:59] <AlinuxOS> BPG_Glaho.ttf works great (small medium and huge) sizes
[04:59] <pitti> i. e. just dropping that one ttf into your font folder is everything required?
[05:00] <jono> http://www.desktoplinux.com/files/article019/osdl-dtl-survey-12.jpg - nice!
[05:00] <AlinuxOS> /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bpg-georgian$ ls
[05:00] <AlinuxOS> BPG_Glaho.ttf  fonts.cache-1
[05:00] <AlinuxOS> yes :)
[05:00] <AlinuxOS> pitti, I use only this fonts
[05:00] <AlinuxOS> and have whole GNOME in georgian :)
[05:00] <AlinuxOS> it's shared with openoffice too :)
[05:01] <AlinuxOS> mainly other fonts are used for typing.
[05:01] <pitti> AlinuxOS: you just dropped that ttf into that dir, and everything magically worked?
[05:02] <pitti> (that would be wonderful, but sounds like black magic to me)
[05:02] <AlinuxOS> pitti, before I need fc-cache
[05:02] <AlinuxOS> in /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bpg-georgian$ directory
[05:02] <AlinuxOS> than restart X and magically everything is in georgian
[05:02] <AlinuxOS> of course locales must be in georgian :)
[05:03] <AlinuxOS> you must specify Georgian like default language in "Language Selector"
[05:04] <pitti> right, setting locale is clear
[05:04] <pitti> AlinuxOS: ok, the package's postinst script should deal with fc-cache
[05:04] <AlinuxOS> so the procedure is: put BPG_Glaho.ttf into /usr/share/fonts/truetype/geo, then move into geo, lauch fc-cache, restart X..and voila :)
[05:05] <AlinuxOS> pitti, yes is very simple :)
[05:05] <pitti> indeed, that's scaringly simple :)
[05:05] <pitti> where's the catch?
[05:05] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, so ? :) do you like this georgian font tip ? :)
[05:06] <mjg59> No, we should just fix the fontconfig configuration
[05:06] <mjg59> Which requires finding someone who understands the damn thing, but.
[05:06] <AlinuxOS> BPG_Glaho.ttfwe can use like main font for gnome interface ;) and other + extra pacakges
[05:06] <AlinuxOS> pitti, ;)
[05:07] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, no fontconfig maestros on ubuntu-devel ?
[05:07] <AlinuxOS> for example you pitti as German, which font do you use for main interface ?
[05:07] <pitti> no idea, I never bothered to change it
[05:07] <pitti> just the default one
[05:08] <ogra> bitstream vera then :)
[05:08] <pitti> "Sans"
[05:08] <AlinuxOS> pitti, eh, you indoeuropeans are lucky :(
[05:08] <ogra> pitti, sans points to vera :)
[05:08] <pitti> AlinuxOS: so, yes, the package already deals with the fc-cache call
[05:08] <AlinuxOS> but I'm too tired ..because I'm alone who cares about this...
[05:08] <ogra> AlinuxOS, youre doing a great job :)
[05:09] <AlinuxOS> some people has donwloaded Ubuntu in georgia...and tested packages
[05:09] <AlinuxOS> (pitti, no erros now :D with double .mo files)
[05:09] <pitti> AlinuxOS: alright, I can remove the other two fonts from the package if it helps to make it work OOTB
[05:09] <AlinuxOS> and who interface wasn't in BPG_Glaho.ttf, but in courier
[05:09] <pitti> AlinuxOS: then we just need to add it to the desktop seed (but I'll test it again to make doubly sure)
[05:10] <AlinuxOS> and it was horrible :)
[05:10] <AlinuxOS> ogra, thank you, it's the first week that I'm GNOME's georgian coordinator too :)
[05:11] <AlinuxOS> need help, but people is too lasy :)
[05:11] <fabbione> has racoon been moved from universe to main?
[05:11] <fabbione> pitti: ^^
[05:11] <AlinuxOS> fabbione, :) italian ?
[05:11] <mjg59> pitti: No, that isn't a good option. It means that anyone who adds the fonts gets breakage.
[05:12] <pitti> fabbione: yes
[05:12] <pitti> fabbione: any trouble with that?
[05:12] <fabbione> pitti: no, just scared the hell out of me when i saw a sparc binary being rsynced
[05:12] <fabbione> AlinuxOS: yes
[05:12] <AlinuxOS> fabbione, mi fa piacere frattelone fabbione :)
[05:13] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, you mean if people add fonts to /usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bpg-georgian ?
[05:14] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Yes
[05:14] <AlinuxOS> mmm
[05:14] <AlinuxOS> normally, Linux people (some people that I know)... adds only BPG_Glaho.ttf into /usr/share/fonts/truetype/
[05:15] <AlinuxOS> and other fonts in open office specific font location.
[05:16] <AlinuxOS> I've asked to GPLise BPG author 3 fonts... but only  BPG_Glaho.ttf is well suted for GNOME or KDE.
[05:16] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: No, both are suitable.
[05:16] <mjg59> Uh, all.
[05:16] <mjg59> You want a monospaced Georgian font for the terminal.
[05:16] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, yes I know, but spaces in others are ugly.
[05:16] <mjg59> Just fix the fontconfig setup.
[05:17] <mjg59> Don't try to work around it. Don't split things up into separate packages. Just fix the thing that is actually causing the problem.
[05:17] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, ok, for example I've fixed locally this problem, howto make this thinks automatic for other people that will use georgian language in interface ?
[05:18] <AlinuxOS> will they do this difficult thing manually?
[05:20] <CarlFK> Kamion: debian-installer - okee dokee
[05:21] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, monospaced georgian font dosen't exist in georgian yet... some friends are making them... that's why I can't start to translate debian-installer to
[05:21] <AlinuxOS> to add georgian into main installation.
[05:23] <sivang> does anybody know what phpmyadmin depends on apache2-prefork and its dependency list wants to remove apach2-worker??
[05:23] <sivang> s/what/why/
[05:24] <fabbione> sivang: php5 is not thread safe
[05:24] <fabbione> so it pulls in php5 and -prefork
[05:25] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: There's a monospaced georgian font in that package!
[05:25] <sivang> fabbione: ah, bummer
[05:25] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: The way to make it work for everyone is to fix the fontconfig setup
[05:25] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, which one ? ???
[05:26] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, I will fight with fontconfig! :)
[05:26] <AlinuxOS> whichone is monospaced font ? :)
[05:26] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, ?
[05:26] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: "BPG Courier"
[05:28] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, with this font will I see files and directories into georgian ?
[05:28] <AlinuxOS> even if I don't start X ?
[05:28] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: No. It's a truetype font,.
[05:28] <mjg59> The console requires bitmap ones
[05:29] <AlinuxOS> BPG_Glaho.ttf works great for X
[05:30] <mjg59> Not in a terminal, it doesn;t
[05:30] <mjg59> Like gnome-terminal
[05:30] <mjg59> That needs BPG courier
[05:30] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, :)
[05:30] <AlinuxOS> I'll show you a screenshot :)
[05:31] <AlinuxOS> I'll write you name in terminal :)
[05:31] <mjg59> BPG-Glaho is not useful in gnome-terminal. It's not a monospaced font.
[05:32] <AlinuxOS> http://alinuxos.no-ip.org/font.png
[05:35] <pitti> AlinuxOS: ah, it seems you use the standard fixed font in the terminal then
[05:36] <AlinuxOS> pitti, ? ;)
[05:36] <dieman> arugh. someone wants to buy 5 machines with a xgi chipset in them for video
[05:36] <pitti> AlinuxOS: I only see latin chars in your terminal (however, loading is very slow, I only see the first 20% of the pic)
[05:36] <AlinuxOS> pitti, when I even grep georgian strings it works
[05:37] <AlinuxOS> pitti, refresh please.
[05:38] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: Glaho is not a monospaced font. It is therefore not a sensible font to use in a terminal. It'll /work/, it'll just be ugly.
[05:38] <mjg59> So we have to ship Courier
[05:38] <mjg59> Which means we have to fix the fontconfig configuration
[05:38] <AlinuxOS> pitti, it works even when I grep  georgian text.
[05:39] <mjg59> (If I have to point this out again, I'm going to scream)
[05:39] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, :) Oooops :)
[05:39] <AlinuxOS> ok ok ok
[05:39] <AlinuxOS> We Will Fix fontconfig! :)
[05:40] <dieman> i dont even understand fontconfig
[05:40] <dieman> and ive got a resonable grasp of how lots of things work under debian/ubuntu
[05:41] <dieman> oh no, im confusing that with defoma
[05:41] <dieman> which seems like another scary mess
[05:41] <AlinuxOS> mjg59,I'm sorry , sometimes I think that there is more easy methods... but you must consider that I'm newbie ;) so don't be angry with me :)
[05:42] <AlinuxOS> pitti, has some experience with me.... sometmes he even don't understands me
[05:43] <AlinuxOS> dieman, :) I'm not even a programmer :)
[05:43] <AlinuxOS> so you can understand that I have many problems..
[05:43] <trappist> hrm.  georgian is pretty.
[05:43] <AlinuxOS> and most problems has technique refference.
[05:43] <mjg59> AlinuxOS: When you type your name, look how there's a large gap between the first character and the second character
[05:43] <mjg59> That's why you need Courier
[05:43] <AlinuxOS> I have no base, to build then
[05:44] <AlinuxOS> other lanaguages have their standarts..and
[05:44] <AlinuxOS> people simply translate into rosetta.
[05:44] <AlinuxOS> but with georgian thing are more complicated..
[05:44] <AlinuxOS> :(
[05:45] <mantiena-baltix> doko, maybe you are online ?
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, everything is clear, thank you for your time..
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> you've right...there is ugly spaces between charachters.
[05:49] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, be sure that when there will 100% GNOME translated into my native language...
[05:50] <AlinuxOS> your and pitti's name will be written in gold on Georgian Gnome's project site! :)
[05:50] <AlinuxOS> thank you for everything...and sorry me
[05:53] <doko> mantiena-baltix: here
[05:53] <AlinuxOS> trappist, grazie per il complimento :) Si, la mia lingua  bella da scrivere :) per c' un casino da risolvere prima :)
[05:54] <pitti> AlinuxOS: English spoken here
[05:55] <mantiena-baltix> doko, could you look at my post in #debian-oo channel or I should copy-paste here ?
[05:55] <AlinuxOS> ok, translation: thank you for appreciating , Yes, my language is beautiful to write, but there is too much problems to solve before :)
[05:56] <doko> mantiena-baltix: is it Ubuntu related?
[05:58] <mantiena-baltix> doko, yes, you told me yesterday where are latest OpenOffice.org 2.0.2rc sources for Ubuntu and I tried to compile them this night
[05:58] <mantiena-baltix> On Ubuntu Breezy (with backported needed build-deps)
[05:59] <mantiena-baltix> but after ~10 hours I got an error :(
[06:06] <mantiena-baltix> doko, so, maybe you can help my to find the problem, why OpenOffice 2.0.2rc doesn
[06:06] <mantiena-baltix> doesn't compile on my system
[06:15] <elmo> is network manager known to be broken in dapper atm?
[06:15] <pitti> the daemon is pretty crashy for me, but the applet works fine
[06:15] <pitti> what do you mean in particular?
[06:18] <elmo> hmb just upgraded and the applet is not appearing
[06:19] <seb128> run nm-applet
[06:19] <seb128> the applet is started with the session
[06:19] <elmo> no such command
[06:19] <seb128> install nm-applet binary package
[06:20] <elmo> that's not part of ubuntu-desktop?
[06:20] <seb128> no
[06:20] <Kamion> nor is network-manager ...
[06:20] <seb128> that's not good enough for desktop
[06:20] <seb128> we only ship it by default on the liveCD atm
[06:21] <elmo> oh, ok, guess sabdfl installed it then
[06:21] <elmo> the low disk space thing could do with some smarts to not whine about recovery partitions
[06:22] <doko> mantiena-baltix: sorry, no time for a breezy backport at the moment. you certainly will have to adjust some ooo-build patches
[06:22] <sabdfl> elmo: yes, i installed it manually here
[06:22] <elmo> sabdfl: nah, I mean on hmb's machine
[06:22] <sabdfl> yes, same
[06:24] <Diziet> Well, here goes, let's see if this Xen thing boots.
[06:24] <elmo> LOL, 'killall NetworkManager' takes out the gnome-power-manager applet
[06:25] <mantiena-baltix> doko, I think this problem is very simple - openoffice doesn't find headers from libnss-dev packages during compilation of xmlsecurity subproject
[06:25] <mantiena-baltix> I got few errors like this:
[06:25] <mantiena-baltix> In file included from /tmp/buildd/openoffice.org-2.0.1oob680m4/ooo-build/build/oob680-m4/xmlsecurity/source/xmlsec/nss/securityenvironment_nssimpl.cxx:41:
[06:25] <mantiena-baltix> /tmp/buildd/openoffice.org-2.0.1oob680m4/ooo-build/build/oob680-m4/xmlsecurity/source/xmlsec/nss/securityenvironment_nssimpl.hxx:95:22: error: pk11func.h: No such file or directory
[06:25] <Diziet> Apparently not.
[06:26] <mantiena-baltix> doko, but pk11func.h is in libnss-dev and libnss-dev is spedified in buid-deps. pbuider installs this package automaticallty, but it seems during compilation openoffice doesn't find there headers :(
[06:28] <pitti> mdz: I have two bug fixes in what will become pmount 0.9.8, plus updated translations from Rosetta. Ok for me to upload this?
[06:28] <pitti> mdz: (very pathological case of UVF, though)
[06:32] <pitti> carlos: ping
[06:33] <doko> mantiena-baltix: you to make sure that config_office/configure finds the correct headers
[06:33] <mdz> pitti: in any case where you are upstream, the version number is irrelevant so long as you are making changes appropriate for the freeze state
[06:34] <pitti> mdz: yes, I would take the two bug fixes anyway
[06:34] <pitti> mdz: oh, and one is already there as a patch from mjg59
[06:34] <pitti> alright, thanks
[06:38] <AlinuxOS> mjg59, here ?
[06:38] <AlinuxOS> :) I understand font choosing criterium
[06:39] <AlinuxOS> maybe it will help to solve this problem
[06:39] <ploum> seb128: you remember the bug I told you about "no mouse click"
[06:39] <mantiena-baltix> doko, btw, should xmlsecurity subproject build in 2.0.2rc ? It seems now we use external xmlsec1 libraries from Ubuntu, they are in build-deps
[06:39] <ploum> I have it in a xnest-window
[06:39] <ploum> do you think that I can do something to see where the problem is ?
[06:39] <dieman> whoa, i didn't know cdimage.ubuntu.com has a vmware image handy
[06:43] <pitti> bah, this new firefox 'just open without asking' behaviour is awful
[06:45] <Diziet> pitti: Thanks for your feedback.  Post it to ubuntu-devel.  I will put it back if everyone hates it, I promise.
[06:46] <pitti> oh, sorry, wasn't meant as a blame
[06:46] <Diziet> Originally I did it because (a) it seemed sane to me and (b) DefaultApplicationsFirefox said so and (c) sabdfl wanted it too.
[06:46] <pitti> it just breaks clicking on links in any application
[06:46] <Diziet> No, no, that's fine, do grumble.  Feedback is good.
[06:46] <pitti> Diziet: hmm, (c) is a compelling reason :)
[06:46] <sabdfl> pitti: how?
[06:46] <Diziet> But perhaps I should make it only do it in ff and not elsewhere ?  All things are possible.
[06:47] <seb128> ploum: no real idea on that, nop
[06:47] <pitti> Diziet: whenever I encounter an URL to a tarball in my mutt, xchat, or whereever, I usually want to download the file
[06:47] <pitti> sabdfl: ^
[06:47] <seb128> same for me
[06:47] <sabdfl> pitti: set your default behaviour to be different, then
[06:47] <seb128> I download all the tarball from evo
[06:47] <seb128> now I need to open the browser
[06:47] <pitti> some hours ago I wanted to download a different file type, and nothing happened at all, I jsut got an empty tab
[06:47] <seb128> stop the download, go to the folder and right click
[06:48] <sabdfl> hmm... so the problem is that it is opening up a tarball viewer?
[06:48] <seb128> it opens file-roller for me yep
[06:48] <pitti> sabdfl: ... or nothing at all
[06:48] <seb128> but I want to package the new tarball, not to browse it, so usually I just save it on the desktop
[06:48] <sabdfl> hmm. fair enough, that's not good
[06:49] <Diziet> One alternative to the current thing would be to list explicitly the content-types that should be opened immediately.
[06:49] <mdz> seb128: does file-roller not let you save a copy of the file?
[06:49] <sabdfl> but i suspect that you can change the default behaviour yourself for specific types, right?
[06:49] <mdz> evince does that, it's nice
[06:49] <pitti> sabdfl: I guess so
[06:49] <Diziet> sabdfl: Yes, but not via the UI.  You have to mess in about:config.
[06:49] <sabdfl> Diziet: really? in thunderbird there's a nice prefs page for it
[06:49] <ploum> in epiphany too
[06:50] <Diziet> There's View & Edit Actions I suppose.
[06:50] <seb128> mdz: there is "save as", yep, but I was not sure if it was going to make a new .tar.gz and maybe changing the md5 from upstream ... I should try :)
[06:50] <Diziet> But you still have to know the mime type.
[06:50] <Diziet> Save as should save it.
[06:50] <mdz> seb128: yeah, it would probably repack it
[06:50] <sabdfl> Edit->Preferences->Downloads->View & Edit Actions
[06:50] <dholbach> edit -> preferences -> downloads -> view and edit actions?
[06:50] <seb128> ploum: epiphany is broken by that change
[06:50] <sabdfl> snap snap snap
[06:51] <seb128> the new pref is unknow by the other browsers
[06:51] <Diziet> I don't see why having the pref unknown by the other browsers is per se a problem.
[06:51] <Diziet> What you mean, surely, is that the new behaviour is a problem.
[06:51] <ploum> seb128: indeed. That's what I tried to say
[06:52] <seb128> Diziet: because that breaks them until we teach them about the pref and how to use it
[06:52] <Diziet> seb128: Why does it break them ?
[06:52] <Diziet> I mean, I understand that it breaks epiphany because it already has a different pref for the same thing and a GUI to set it.
[06:53] <Diziet> But why would it break some more naive embedder ?
[06:53] <seb128> because epiphany expects standard firefox behaviour
[06:53] <seb128> and acts according to that
[06:53] <seb128> I've not said it breaks every embedder
[06:53] <seb128> but it breaks galeon too the same way
[06:53] <Diziet> Because galeon also has a pref for the same thing ?
[06:53] <seb128> yep
[06:54] <Diziet> That is, a different pref for the same thing.
[06:54] <Diziet> So they're really working around the deficiency in gecko, aren't they ?
[06:54] <Diziet> Maybe the right thing would be to push this new pref upstream and make galeon and epiphany use/set it instead of their own ?
[06:54] <seb128> sort of yep
[06:54] <seb128> correct
[06:55] <Diziet> I'm not sure we have enough of a grip on the situation for that.  I mean really, that I have enough of a grip on the situation.
[06:55] <Diziet> So is there code in g. and ep. that mirrors the code in gecko ?
[06:55] <seb128> we just have to consider that having a distro specific way is an issue for upstream
[06:55] <seb128> and force us to patch others packages too
[06:56] <Diziet> It's definitely a problem if we have to patch naive embedders (of which there are several?  yelp etc.)
[06:56] <seb128> yelp just use gecko for rendering, that should be fine
[06:56] <Diziet> But if it's just a couple who've already added complex wart on top of the gecko lack-of-feature then I don't feel so bad about that.
[06:57] <seb128> I only knows about epiphany and galeon beeing broken by the change atm
[06:57] <Diziet> As it happens yelp never triggers this because the help files never have any externally handled content types.
[06:57] <seb128> and yelp has no option for that
[06:57] <seb128> so it would just follow firefox behaviour
[06:57] <Diziet> Right, so if it did have any such types it would DTRT.
[06:57] <Diziet> So it sounds like having g. and ep. override the gecko pref would be sufficient.
[06:58] <seb128> correct
[06:58] <Diziet> I think that's the correct workaround for now.
[06:58] <seb128> but upstream is not wanting to make special case for every distro around doing his custom hack
[06:58] <Diziet> I shall try a bit harder to punt my patch upstream.  I sent it to the Debian people with a note saying `dunno if you want this' but I haven't sent it directly upstream yet.
[06:58] <seb128> s/his/its
[06:58] <seb128> that would be nice
[06:59] <Diziet> seb128: So we make the pref change in Ubuntu.  We have facilities for that, don't we ?
[06:59] <seb128> if the feature goes upstream that's better for everybody
[06:59] <Diziet> Yes, certainly, which is why we should try to get it upstream.  But in the meantime we have to solve our Ubuntu problem.
[07:00] <seb128> we can patch epiphany/galeon, some people will still doing local builds for testing stuff, or because they jhbuild GNOME, or other and bug upstream but that's not a big deal
[07:00] <Diziet> So, FYI, in case you didn't know, the pref is browser.helperApps.defaultNoAsk.openFile and you just need to set it to false.
[07:00] <seb128> k
[07:00] <seb128> I'll patch epiphany and galeon so
[07:00] <Diziet> Can I get you to write up a mail to ubuntu-devel CC relevant people explaining this decision ?
[07:00] <Diziet> Or should I do that ?
[07:01] <seb128> do we need to use the ML where we have a laucnhpad bug with revelant people Cced?
[07:01] <Diziet> We should have some record of it so that in 6 months' time we're not "err, dunno, I remember there was a reason, um".
[07:01] <seb128> I've already pointed the bug on the list
[07:01] <Diziet> I think a list posting is a lot more findable than an LP bug.  You could mail it to both.
[07:02] <seb128> I've already mailed the list friday pointing to the issue and the launchpad bug about it
[07:02] <Diziet> (more findable> hopefully LP's searching will improve but for now it's a bit of a swamp.)
[07:02] <Diziet> I'm sure one nice clear coherent mail won't upset anyone.
[07:02] <seb128> but I've no objection to follow on the list
[07:02] <seb128> k
[07:02] <Diziet> Do CC the bug too of course.
[07:02] <Diziet> There's nothing wrong with a crosspost between list and bug.
[07:02] <seb128> ah right, we can do that with launchpad :)
[07:03] <seb128> I'm used to bugzilla
[07:03] <Diziet> (Not sure if LP will cope properly but we can fix things up if the mails go to the wrong places.)
[07:03] <Diziet> (Probably the only problem is that the copies coming via LP will have the headers mangled so you can't tell the crosspost, so mention it in the body of your mail.)
[07:03] <seb128> right
[07:05] <Amaranth> Wouldn't it be better to have it default to off and have a post-install (or profile creation, whatever) turn it on?
[07:05] <Diziet> I wanted to enable it for existing profiles.
[07:06] <Amaranth> make it an upgrade note?
[07:06] <pitti> seb128, Diziet: FWIW, the 'Save as' in file-roller is disabled when I open a tar.gz URL from a terminal
[07:06] <Amaranth> you're breaking the platform so you can save upgraders a little hassle
[07:06] <Diziet> I don't think I am breaking the platform.
[07:07] <Kamion> if it's broken, then it's equally so for upgraders and fresh-installers; this is a *good* thing
[07:07] <Diziet> I'm breaking some rather hacky extra features added on top of the gecko builtin UI.
[07:07] <Kamion> it means we don't miss out on hearing about problems because only fresh-installers notice
[07:07] <Diziet> By as far as we know only two very complex embedders.
[07:07] <seb128> pitti: weird, it works when I open one from nautilus here
[07:08] <Amaranth> Is it possible for someone to distribute a binary-only app that uses the gecko in Ubuntu (but isn't Ubuntu specific)?
[07:08] <Kamion> mvo: InstallProgress.waitChild() spins rather unpleasantly on os.waitpid()
[07:08] <seb128> Amaranth: non patched build expecting the upstream behaviour will be screwed if that's what we ask
[07:09] <Diziet> amaranth: Yes, and I think those apps should work just fine unless they try to second-guess the external content type dialogue (read: unless they try to fix the bug I'm fixing here).
[07:09] <Amaranth> Yes, that's what I'm asking.
[07:09] <Kamion> mvo: it would be nice if it only tried to waitpid on receipt of SIGCHLD, or at least slept a bit between calls, or something ...
[07:09] <Diziet> It's just the usual case that if you fix a bug in a more-core place you break workarounds accreted elsewhere.
[07:09] <Kamion> the first would be ideal but is obviously more fiddly
[07:09] <Amaranth> Diziet: Got a bug open upstream with the patch? I'd like to follow it.
[07:10] <Diziet> amaranth: No, and I'm trying to fight grub and Xen today instead of getting sucked into ff again but please email me and I'll add you to the CC when I file it.
[07:13] <ogra_> Diziet, there is no /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/xpidl anymore ?
[07:14] <Diziet> Urrr.
[07:14] <Diziet> It's in /usr/lib/firefox now.
[07:14] <Diziet> Why ?
[07:15] <ogra_> i'm just trying to make a testbuild of vlc, it fails searching for it ...
[07:15] <Kamion> Sometimes I feel as if I spend my entire life plumbing bits of debconf together.
[07:15] <Diziet> Do you know why it's looking there ?
[07:15] <ogra_> (needed for the plugin it seems)
[07:15] <Diziet> It's probably some remnant /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox reference in some package file or .pc or something.
[07:16] <ogra_> Diziet, no idea ... i added four lines to the screensaver handling :)
[07:16] <Diziet> If you can find out where it's getting that path from and it's in one of the firefox packages do file a bug and I'll fix it.
[07:16] <Diziet> :-)  Sorry I made your program bitrot ...
[07:16] <ogra_> might simply be an old build ...
[07:16] <ogra_> its from new years eve
[07:18] <Kamion> fantastic post about the lack of configuration files for PCMCIA in the new world order
[07:18] <Kamion> http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-pcmcia/2006-February/003300.html
[07:18] <Diziet> FF build from NYE ?  That is very old.
[07:22] <ogra_> ah, the prob was that xpidl is in firefox, but only -dev was in the build-deps :)
[07:28] <Kamion> pitti: that culmus upload appears to be wrong
[07:28] <Kamion> pitti: here's the diff for dapper:
[07:29] <Kamion> -FONTDIR=$(DEB_DIR)/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1
[07:29] <Kamion> +FONTDIR=$(DEB_DIR)/usr/share/X11/fonts/Type1
[07:29] <Kamion> pitti: but here's the diff for breezy:
[07:29] <Kamion> -FONTDIR=$(DEB_DIR)/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1
[07:29] <Kamion> +FONTDIR=$(DEB_DIR)/usr/share/X11/fonts/
[07:29] <Kamion> spot the difference
[07:29] <Kamion> sivang: ^--
[07:29] <pitti> right
[07:30] <dholbach> there's a change for imake pending which will make a good bunch of paths sane again (but that's dapper+1 material, as we have no idea of the amounts of bits shuffled around)
[07:31] <fabbione> dholbach: dude.. didn't we agree to try to change it locally and build a set of packages on top of it?
[07:31] <fabbione> dholbach: that's what we discussed at the Hug Day
[07:32] <dholbach> If you read again, I said "dapper+1" :)
[07:32] <fabbione> dholbach: yes, but perhaps we could have fixed for dapper :)
[07:32] <fabbione> we are still in time to do it i think
[07:32] <dholbach> hmhmhmhmhm
[07:32] <dholbach> *whine*
[07:32] <dholbach> i'm not sure how happy this will make us
[07:33] <Kamion> whoa, espresso managed to install language packs
[07:34] <Kamion> although no cancel button for some reason
[07:34] <fabbione> dholbach: neither am I, that's why i suggested to take a sample (if not all) pkgs that B-D on imake and rebuild + debdiff :)
[07:34] <dholbach> fabbione: I test-built 2 or 3 packages and that was enough for me to say "next release"
[07:35] <fabbione> dholbach: ehehe ok
[07:39] <Diziet> ogra_: -dev should have a dep on firefox, I think.
[07:40] <ogra_> hmm, true
[07:40] <mammadori> hi all, I know about casper, squashfs and unionfs but I would like to study the daily build scripts for ubuntu-live, but I cannot find where they lies, any hint?
[07:41] <Kamion> I'm afraid they've never been published anywhere outside our buildds
[07:41] <Diziet> ogra_: I've added a note to my todo list.
[07:41] <Kamion> they're pretty specific to Ubuntu of course, most of the actual hard work they do is debootstrap + install ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-live + nasty custom hacks
[07:42] <ogra_> great, thanks :)
[07:42] <Diziet> kamion: Uh ?  `scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable'
[07:42] <mammadori> Kamion: I'm helping debian-live subproject, could I access some way these buildd scripts?
[07:42] <Kamion> actually creating the filesystem is just mksquashfs
[07:43] <Kamion> Diziet: the live CD image almost certainly contains both GPLed and GPL-incompatible material so I doubt the whole is covered by the GPL ... but I agree it should be public anyway
[07:43] <Kamion> sabdfl: ^--
[07:44] <Diziet> Ahm.  I don't really have time now for this conversation, unfortunately.
[07:44] <Diziet> I'm supposed to be in town at 1900.
[07:44] <mammadori> Kamion: nice, tnx, we should reinvent the wheel perhaps :-), we are going on hacking the casper tool and the cdd system, I would like to help ubuntu by helping debian (low level work), tnx anyway
[07:45] <Kamion> mammadori: you'll need to make sure to install casper, run update-initramfs and fish out the initrd produced by that
[07:46] <Kamion><EMAIL_ADDRESS>at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>includes some hacks to get the initrd onto the CD image, although that's the easy bit
[07:47] <Kamion> you'll probably also want to install xresprobe and laptop-detect in the live filesystem to get X autoconfiguration; but that will vary quite a bit between Debian and Ubuntu, I imagine
[07:48] <Diziet> TTFN
[07:49] <Kamion> grr @ readahead - please let my live CD boot in finite time, kthxbye
[07:53] <comfrey> anyone else seeing any issues with current dapper and gnome panel items not appearing?
[07:54] <comfrey> tomboy for example has stopped showing up in the panel.
[07:54] <elmo> oook, dapper _loses_ on this laptop
[07:54] <comfrey> as well as rythmbox.  all of the applets work fine.
[07:57] <elmo> got an IBM T42, where 2.6.15 fails to boot, says it can't find the root partition, boot messages show it finding the harddrive but not the partitions... any ideas?
[07:58] <comfrey> elmo: live cd or post install?
[07:58] <elmo> post upgrade from breezy
[07:59] <Kamion> might be easiest to wait until Keybuk's around
[07:59] <comfrey> elmo: use grub cli to verify boot params
[07:59] <elmo> boot params are fine
[07:59] <elmo> I can boot breezy kernel into  single user
[07:59] <fabbione> elmo: initrd
[07:59] <elmo> haven't tried multi, but assume it'll fail thanks to the new udev world order
[07:59] <elmo> fabbione: how do you mean?
[07:59] <fabbione> it's probably missing a module for the driver?
[08:00] <Kamion> then it wouldn't find the drive surely
[08:00] <elmo> fabbione: it can see the drive tho, just not the partitions
[08:00] <elmo> plus mdy has a t42 and dapper's kernel works for him
[08:01] <AlinuxOS> mdz, ping
[08:01] <mdz> ?
[08:02] <Mithrandir> elmo: your partition layout might be slightly funky in a way which trips the kernel?
[08:02] <AlinuxOS> mdz, hello
[08:02] <elmo> Mithrandir: yeah, I suspect it is
[08:02] <AlinuxOS> will georgian bpg font included in Dapper main ?
[08:02] <jvw> how many fulltime canonical employees are there working on Ubuntu?
[08:02] <jvw> (roughly)
[08:02] <AlinuxOS> if not, there is no georgian font at all to support ka_GE locales.
[08:03] <pitti> AlinuxOS: yes, as soon as there is a proper font config
[08:03] <pitti> jvw: 16ish
[08:03] <AlinuxOS> pitti, ;)
[08:03] <jvw> pitti: thanks
[08:03] <mdz> jvw: why?
[08:04] <Kamion> the current list is 15 I think
[08:04] <fabbione> elmo: i would check the 2 initrds to see if they are different
[08:04] <jvw> mdz: DPL elections campaigning is on, and someone asks questions like "What do you think of Ubuntu"
[08:04] <fabbione> elmo: and possibly if mdy is updated at the same level
[08:04] <mdz> jvw: yes, Raphael did I think
[08:04] <jvw> indeed
[08:04] <jvw> as one of the candidates, I'm of course answering...
[08:04] <elmo> that could be hard, mdy being the part timer he is, has left for the night
[08:04] <elmo> am I right in assuming breezy's kernel won't work with dapper?
[08:05] <fabbione> elmo: it might...
[08:05] <mdz> elmo: I think udev may be fucked in that configuration
[08:05] <mdz> jvw: and?
[08:05] <jvw> mdz: well, I'm still composing it, best await the reply by mail I guess :)
[08:06] <jvw> mdz: btw, did you do anything with the poll results for maintainer-field yet? I said in some other mail I still wanted to prod someone, and that someone is you :)
[08:06] <mdz> jvw: I'm curious about why that particular piece of information was relevant to your opinion
[08:06] <mdz> jvw: yes, infinity is working on the implementation
[08:07] <fabbione> jvw: you running as DPL?? did your mother gave you permission to do so? :P
[08:07] <jvw> it isn't relevant to my opinion, but I want to be factual in the statement that basicly says "It is good to have N people working fulltime on basicly what is rougly sid, or at least, close to it"
[08:07] <AlinuxOS> pitti, I was only asking generally, cause some georgian users are asking me howto install georgian fonts on Ubunts
[08:07] <jvw> (or so, I didn't finalize my exact statement yet)
[08:08] <AlinuxOS> that's all :)
[08:08] <jvw> fabbione: dude! I'm young, but not *that* young :)
[08:08] <jvw> fabbione: there are people of my age having 3 children already
[08:08] <jvw> (in the US probably more)
[08:09] <fabbione> jvw: isn't underage sex punishable by law? :P
[08:09] <fabbione> jvw: congratulation for the run anyway.
[08:09] <jvw> mdz: what implementation will you choose? Just the 'winner', even though you noted it isn't probably the best solution?
[08:09] <jvw> fabbione: running isn't hard, being able to sign a mail is all it takes
[08:10] <fabbione> jvw: well running is always difficult.. not just to sign up ;)
[08:10] <mdz> jvw: something functionally equivalent to the winning option, using a more accurate name for the field
[08:10] <jvw> I see
[08:14] <Rique18> hei people!
[08:14] <Rique18> good afternoon
[08:14] <Rique18> somebody can help me?
[08:14] <Rique18> we are creating a free radio in my town
[08:14] <Rique18> and want use free content to manage the radio
[08:15] <Rique18> somebody meet some linux distro for radios?
[08:19] <elmo> meh, breezy kernel boots, but not ipw2x00 love, I'm so dead
[08:22] <Rique18> elmo hi
[08:24] <mjg59> mdz: I'm going to nap for half an hour, I've set an alarm for the meeting
[08:24] <mdz> mjg59: see you then
[08:24] <Rique18> people...
[08:24] <Rique18> say me something
[08:25] <Kamion> well, it's not really a particularly good channel for your question ...
[08:25] <Kamion> if Ubuntu isn't suitable for your needs, Googling for a more suitable distribution would probably be your best bet.
[08:26] <Rique18> Kamion thanks for helping
[08:26] <Rique18> Kamion do you meet the right channel or irc network?
[08:26] <dholbach> You didn't quite say how anybody could help you - what you are looking for specifically - mailing<EMAIL_ADDRESS>might be a better approach
[08:27] <Kamion> Rique18: no idea, sorry
[08:28] <Kamion> but this channel is for the development of Ubuntu and is only appropriate if you're working on Ubuntu development
[08:32] <Rique18> Kamion i understand
[08:32] <Rique18> thanks!
[08:41] <mvo> hm, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/5.10/release/ has only dvd images?
[08:43] <janimo> Kamion, any eta on xfce main promotion, and cd build? thanks
[08:45] <Riddell> mvo: CDs are on http://releases.ubuntu.com/
[08:45] <Kamion> mvo: yes, it should really link to releases for the rest
[08:45] <Kamion> janimo: erm, not yet, sorry, I'll try to look at it this week for you
[08:46] <mvo> aha, thanks
[08:46] <janimo> Kamion, thanks
[08:59] <mammadori> kamion: Tnx a lot for tips, you were invaluable, I'll watch your scripts (I miss enter key 1 hour ago.... dinner caught me :-) )
[09:01] <elmo> GRR
[09:01] <elmo> GRR GRR GRR GRR HATE
[09:01] <Treenaks> elmo: who? what? where? why?
[09:02] <jpatrick> how?
[09:07] <elmo> (for anyone following along at home, my problem was #32123, but I didn't get a backup of the broken initrd.img)
[09:08] <CarlFK> so infinity has passed?!
[09:08] <CarlFK> and I missed it.
[09:17] <sivang> 58/152 0:09:28
[09:17] <sivang> go bzr go!
[09:20] <sivang> yes, you are almos there, just a little bit more
[09:20] <sivang> copy  97/152 0:04:00
[09:23] <mvo> sivang: you sound so excited. is this your first push?
[09:24] <sivang> mvo: ehehe
[09:24] <pitti> sivang: looking at this number, you will rather be annoyed, I guess
[09:24] <sivang> mvo: actually it's a re-branch... I have diverted accidently so I need to check/merge
[09:24] <pitti> sivang: the very first push to a remote site should still better be done with tar/scp/untar
[09:25] <sivang> pushes are a bit quikcer.
[09:25] <tseng> i need to try the new push code
[09:26] <sivang> well, from the crappy net connection I have here, sftp works finr for the pushes, I might need to switch back to rsync for the pulling
[09:27] <sivang> mjg59: I tried recompiling with --with-rgb-path, but compilation breaks for me at some point. are there any dependenices that are not specified in the source control file?
[09:28] <sivang> mjg59: (talking about pkg:xserver-xgl)
[09:28] <mgalvin> not really a devel question, but might anyone know the size in GB of the complete package archive at archive.ubuntu.com for all archs and ports, etc...?
[09:31] <sivang> yay, it finshed
[09:32] <mjg59> sivang: There should be no extra dependencies, otherwise it wouldn't get built by the buildds
[09:34] <sivang> mjg59: I thought about it, and couldn't get why it fails on my machine...I think it said it was missing some utility which names was in CAPS, not sure. I will recheck and report back. Are you ware of the emacs problem? (unkonw color err)
[09:35] <mjg59> Yes, it's because of the lacking rgb.txt
[09:36] <sivang> mjg59: where do you reckon it expects it? I tried putting it for him in all possilbe locations. (/usr/.. /etc/.. etc)
[09:36] <sivang> s/him/it/
[09:36] <mjg59> It wants it in /usr/share, I believe
[09:37] <LaserJock> mgalvin: I think I asked that questions once, seemed like the guess was somewhere around 20 GB, but I could be way off.
[09:38] <sivang> mjg59: will be review a diff package I will create for adding the necessary configure options to debian/rules and upload if appropriate?
[09:39] <mgalvin> LaserJock: thanks, for the time being i may try to mirror it myself to get an acurate number
[09:39] <LaserJock> mgalvin: yikes
[09:40] <mgalvin> well i need to know, so worth the effort for now :)
[09:40] <mjg59> sivang: If it works, yes
[09:41] <mgalvin> LaserJock: hopefully my ISP doesn't get too mad ;)
[09:42] <LaserJock> mgalvin: I just hope you have a good connection ;-)
[09:44] <mgalvin> LaserJock: i get around 500-700kB/s on a cable connection so it should not take *too* long
[09:54] <mvo> does anyone mind if I upload a new ubuntu-meta?
[09:55] <ogra> mvo, any changes for edubuntu-meta i'd miss ?
[09:56] <mvo> ogra: no idea, I don't know a lot about edubuntu ...
[09:56] <ogra> whats changed in ubuntu-meta ?
[09:57] <sivang> mjg59: btw, why do you ship the configure results in the source package? (isn't it better to leave it un configure'd, so when changes are introduced in the rules file, those will menifest in the resulting auto foo with a need for a manual run?)
[09:57] <mvo> ogra: I can put the changes on a pastebin, give me a bit
[09:57] <sivang> mjg59: s/with/without/
[09:57] <ogra> mvo, only if they differ much with my edubuntu-meta upload from today
[09:59] <dholbach> ogra: you should be able to tell by the pastebin, no?
[09:59] <ogra> dholbach, sure, i but looking aat the mail on -chqanges would be less work for mvo :)
[10:00] <dholbach> i think not
[10:00] <mjg59> sivang: Hm. make distclean ought to get rid of them, so I'm confused as to how they would end up in there.
[10:01] <mvo> Kamion: could gdebi get promotion to main please?
[10:01] <reggaemanu> mjg59, hello, is it planified to upgrade xgl and compiz packages (and adding libsvg and libsvg-cairo)?
[10:02] <mvo> ogra: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9554
[10:02] <mjg59> reggaemanu: Not right now, Xgl requires CVS mesa
[10:02] <ogra> mvo, thats contained in my upload already, thanks
[10:03] <mvo> ogra: cheers, gdebi is waiting for promotion, once it's in main, that is added to the list as well
[10:03] <mjg59> I'll look into compiz
[10:03] <reggaemanu> mjg59, ok, and just a modified xgl package with rgbpath set ?
[10:03] <ogra> mvo, you had that here too ...
[10:03] <ogra> s/you/yup/
[10:04] <mvo> here?
[10:04] <sivang> mjg59: make distclean failes for me with a fresh src I just grabbed. http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9555
[10:04] <mjg59> sivang: Uhm. In that case, it's not configured.
[10:05] <ogra> mvo, here in blankenheim in the list of updates when i updated edubuntu-meta ...
[10:06] <mvo> ogra: aha, ok
[10:06] <mvo> ogra: sorry for being slow, it's late here :)
[10:06] <ogra> haha
[10:06] <ogra> not here
[10:07] <mvo> I though so :-D
[10:11] <sivang> mjg59: this is what I get when autogen'ing it, do I need to switch the automake version? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/9556
[10:12] <mjg59> Why are you autogening it?
[10:12] <Kamion> mvo: erm, sorry, I'm just here really briefly and don't expect to be around when the publisher next finishes (which is when my window opens for promotions)
[10:13] <mjg59> sivang: You need CVS X build macros to be able to do that
[10:13] <Kamion> mvo: gdebi's lacking a main inclusion report; doesn't it need one, or did mdz exempt it?
[10:14] <mdz> Kamion: I didn't, but it shouldn't need much more than a second pair of eyes
[10:15] <Kamion> if pitti's looked at it already, that's enough for me, I just don't remember whether he has or not
[10:16] <sistpoty> elmo: please sync bum (2.1.5-1) from unstable, no ubuntu specific changes present. thx.
[10:22] <mvo> Kamion: I was told we don't need them for apps we have written ourselfs, no?
[10:22] <mvo> Kamion: I can ask pitti to have a look first of course
[10:30] <LaserJock> mjg59: ping?
[10:33] <mjg59> LaserJock: Hi
[10:35] <LaserJock> mjg59: do you much experience with licenses, I was searching debian-legal and your name popped up
[10:35] <mjg59> LaserJock: Some, yeah
[10:35] <LaserJock> mjg59: I'm particularly interested in the Common Public License
[10:35] <LaserJock> and it's DFSGness
[10:36] <mjg59> LaserJock: I believe it's fine
[10:36] <Burgwork> LaserJock, is that the IBM one?
[10:37] <LaserJock> mjg59: is there a website that lists DFSG free licenses, I tried doing some googling but I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for exactly
[10:38] <mjg59> LaserJock: There isn't, no
[10:38] <sivang> does anyone know if pmount has something close to a python api to be able to mount from python applications?
[10:38] <LaserJock> mjg59: ok, that's fine. I'm just trying to get a package moved from multiverse to universe and I wanted to sound somewhat intelligent when I emailed elmo
[10:39] <LaserJock> Burgwork: something like that, I'm not sure
[10:43] <sivang> or, otherwise I just need to subprocess.call() it?
[11:25] <Kamion> mvo: I've promoted gdebi now; will be available in an hour or so
[11:25] <mvo> Kamion: cool, thanks a lot
[11:25] <Kamion> as you say, we wrote it ourselves, pitti can look over it later if need be
[11:29] <elmo> mvo: does the dist-upgrade tool force gnome debconf?
[11:30] <elmo> mvo: I just had mine error out because postgres-* was trying to display a not via gnome debconf, but gnome libraries weren't in a usable state
[11:30] <elmo> a note too
[11:32] <Kamion> debconf's gnome frontend should generally fall back itself, but there was a bug in lib{glib,gtk}-perl (can't remember which) in dapper a while ago that meant it couldn't
[11:32] <koke> mvo: I think I have asked this a hundred of times, but I always forgot... where is the current repo of update-manager??
[11:32] <mvo> elmo: yes, it forces it. I got a bugreport about that (gnome debconf not usable)  before
[11:32] <mvo> s/before/recently/
[11:33] <mvo> koke: haha, no problem. it's http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/bzr/update-manager--dapper/ for the current dapper version
[11:34] <mvo> and http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/bzr/update-manager--mvo/ for the current devel tree. that one contains some ui fixesin the software-properties window, that may be too risky for dapper. I will discuss that at the ui sprint
[11:34] <mvo> elmo: it's now on my MUSTFIX list
[11:34] <mvo> elmo: did the upgrade-tool otherwise worked?
[11:36] <mvo> koke: do you plean to hack on it (again)? that would be wonderful :)
[11:37] <koke> mvo: I have some ideas :)
[11:37] <koke> actually not mine. I've been using osx for some time and I like their update system
[11:38] <elmo> mvo: apart from the career-destroying initrd SNAFU, yeah, but I doubt that's update-manager's problem
[11:38] <mvo> elmo: I like to blame the packages for any failures :P
[11:39] <mvo> koke: nice, I'm looking forward for cool stuff from you :)
[11:39] <elmo> hmm, this new font or whatever is messing with my brain
[11:39] <elmo> I assume the lack of pretty cursors is a known thing?
[11:40] <tseng> elmo: yeah its been that way for some time
[11:40] <tseng> elmo: if you just give it a poke in system - prefs - mouse - pointers, its back
[11:40] <ajmitch_> mvo: I think it should, still
[11:40] <ajmitch_> hello tseng
[11:40] <tseng> hey andrew
[11:41] <mvo> ajmitch_: yes it does. pretty amazing stuff that bzr (I use 0.1.1 to get the archive)
[11:41] <koke> mvo: an interesting thing from osx. Instead of download updates in the background, the option is to download important (security, I presume) updates in the background
[11:41] <ajmitch_> mvo: I've been using it a lot lately, very happy with it :)
[11:41] <tseng> ajmitch_: are you using push now?
[11:42] <ajmitch_> tseng: currently not, though I've used it in the past
[11:42] <mvo> ajmitch_: yes, I'm pretty happy with it as well. I switched synaptic over recently. and once that stupid baz-import for apt finises that one will be bzr too
[11:42] <koke> mvo: another one is to group non-important updates in a combined update (like 'Ubuntu 6.X update 2006-06-12')
[11:42] <Ubugtu> ubuntu bug 6 in gdb "gdb package contains non-free GNU FDL documentation" [Normal,Resolved: notwarty]  http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6
[11:42] <ajmitch_> mvo: sadly the selinux debian packaging will be using arch, so I think I'll have to use baz2bzr to stay sane
[11:42] <mvo> koke: oh, interessting. we will have a "install security upgrades" for dapper, but that not silently download only those
[11:42] <koke> and have a small translated changelog
[11:43] <tseng> ajmitch_: id almost rather upstreams use svn over baz
[11:43] <tseng> ajmitch_: i feel bad saying that.
[11:44] <mvo> koke: another nice idea. only this aggregation makes translated changelogs feasbile IMHO
[11:44] <mvo> otherwise it is too much work
[11:44] <mvo> for the translators
[11:44] <koke> yep, also the description can be done while fixing the package to be ready when uploading it
[11:46] <sabdfl> mjg59: your shiny new toy is in elmo's hands
[11:48] <koke> mvo: ok, I'll tell you more
[11:48] <koke> mvo: btw, what's that ui sprint thing?
[11:48] <sabdfl> mjg59: i'm in the market for a new laptop, x60 is delayed till March 21st, any suggestions for stuff you don't have and would like to test?
[11:49] <sivang> sabdfl: what kind of toy is that? :-)
[11:49] <mvo> koke: it's about a get-togehter for polishing the UI for dapper. final touches, that kind of stuff
[11:49] <sabdfl> imac
[11:49] <mjg59> sabdfl: Rock. Any chance of getting it sent up here?
[11:49] <sivang> ah , cool
[11:50] <mvo> koke: please tell me tomorrow, I'm already half asleep :)
[11:50] <mjg59> sabdfl: March 21st? Suck. A Core Duo machine of some sort would be good.
[11:50] <koke> mvo: ok, I have lots of comments :)
[11:50] <sabdfl> mjg59: sure, just ask elmo for it, and can we have it back for the office please?
[11:50] <mjg59> sabdfl: Indeed
[11:50] <mvo> koke: cool, that is *good* :)
[11:51] <sivang> mvo: ui polish sprint? where?
[11:51] <mjg59> sabdfl: Dell are shipping the Inspiron 9400, I'm not sure if any of the other major manufacturers have one out yet
[11:51] <elmo> I can't find any from HP or Sony, FWIW
[11:51] <sabdfl> sony has them. in japan.
[11:52] <sabdfl> would have bought one but the keyboard was bake-your-noodle material
[11:52] <elmo> mjg59: I assume cvd has your shipping details?
[11:53] <koke> sabdfl: you can remap it if you know the layout :)
[11:53] <koke> it's also good for improve typing speed
[11:53] <mjg59> elmo: Yup
[11:53] <sabdfl> mjg59: how predictable are the Windows keys on keyboards and laptops?
[11:54] <mjg59> sabdfl: In what way?
[11:54] <mjg59> They always generate the same scancodes
[11:54] <sabdfl> it would be nice if we could map them to fire up the K menu, or the G applications menu
[11:54] <mjg59> Oh, I see what you mean
[11:54] <sabdfl> nice, that is, for windows users
[11:54] <ogra> thats trivial ...
[11:54] <Burgwork> sabdfl, it would be also nice to map some of the other windowskey+key codes as well
[11:55] <sabdfl> Burgwork: i don't know them... tell?
[11:55] <Burgwork> sabdfl, ie, if you simply press and release the windows key, you get the start menu, but if you hold it, you can use it like a ctrl or alt
[11:55] <mjg59> sabdfl: In Gnome, just set the "Show the panel menu" shortcut to that
[11:55] <ajmitch_> win+m for minimise all, for example
[11:55] <Burgwork> such as W+e launches explorer and w+r for the run command
[11:55] <ogra> ctrl-alt-del for the system-monitor ?
[11:55] <Burgwork> w+l for locking the screen
[11:56] <LaserJock> I've got an Intel iMac if anybody needs some testing
[11:56] <tseng> LaserJock: Kamion seemed somewhat interested, but i doubt its much good to him remotely, at this stage
[11:57] <LaserJock> tseng: hmm, I don't think the boss would let me send it to him ;-)
[11:57] <sabdfl> LaserJock: will you test the Flight 5 CD on it?
[11:57] <LaserJock> sabdfl: I will if it works ;-)
[11:57] <tseng> sabdfl: flight 5 wont be very useful afaik
[11:57] <sabdfl> Flight 6 perhaps
[11:57] <mjg59> You can't boot iso9660 CDs on them
[11:58] <tseng> someone will have to get a box at canonical and do the dirty work of hacking elilo
[11:58] <tseng> and vesafb
[11:58] <mjg59> It'll have to be a separate CD image for Dapper, for +1 we can probably manage a CD that'll do both
[11:58] <LaserJock> sabdfl: if you guys get Ubuntu to work on macintels and all the i386 stuff works then you'll doing great. Fink and darwin ports are really giving me troubles
[11:59] <mjg59> sabdfl: Ok, Dell claim to be shipping the 9400 in the UK. It's a Centrino Duo platform, so it's pretty similar to the new Thinkpads.