[00:00] <NCommander> I think its meeting time
[00:01] <Riddell> good evening Friends
[00:01] <Riddell> who's all here for a Kubuntu meeting?
[00:01] <JontheEchidna> \o
[00:01] <NCommander> here
[00:01] <blizzz> here
[00:01] <NCommander> Shall I start the meeting?
[00:01] <Daisuke_Ido> i'm here to listen and absorb
[00:01] <Riddell> council check
[00:02] <Riddell> Nightrose, yuriy?
[00:02] <Riddell> nixternal?
[00:02] <yuriy> hi
[00:02] <Nightrose> pong
[00:02] <twylight> bI am here.
[00:02]  * Nightrose waves
[00:02] <apachelogger> o/
[00:02] <Nightrose> :)
[00:02] <Riddell> groovy, memberships first
[00:02] <NCommander> \o/
[00:02] <NCommander> Riddell, not going to use moobot?
[00:02] <Riddell> I don't know how
[00:02] <Riddell> #startmeeting
[00:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is Riddell.
[00:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[00:02]  * JontheEchidna apt-get moo's
[00:02] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[00:02] <MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
[00:02] <NCommander> Damn it
[00:03] <Riddell> TOPIC NCommander
[00:03] <NCommander> Riddell, [TOPIC] NCommander
[00:03] <Riddell> [TOPIC] NCommander
[00:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander
[00:03] <NCommander> \o/
[00:03] <Riddell> NCommander: who are you and why do you like us?
[00:03] <NCommander> I'm Michael Casadevall, I'm a firefighter in Rochester, and I like to help because KDE is the source of some rather interesting FTBFS (that, and I use it on and off as my default DE)
[00:03] <apachelogger> Oo
[00:03] <apachelogger> what kind of usability is that?
[00:04] <NCommander> apachelogger, what usability?
[00:04] <apachelogger> NCommander: can I put *ubuntu on my iPhone already?
[00:04] <NCommander> I also use KDE and Qt for some development I do on the side, so I have an interest in keeping it running
[00:04] <NCommander> apachelogger, I can port it for you, but we're off topic
[00:04] <apachelogger> _exactly_
[00:05] <Riddell> NCommander: why do compile failures annoy you so much?
[00:05]  * apachelogger finds that quite topicish
[00:05] <NCommander> Riddell, it's not annoy, its fun to fix it. It's something I have a knack for
[00:05] <NCommander> and its a good way to contribute since very few people know how to fix FTBFS, and even fewer like to
[00:05] <Riddell> NCommander: when did you first get into helping ubuntu?
[00:05] <JontheEchidna> you sir, are a nobler man than I
[00:05] <apachelogger> NCommander: do you expect to become a motu in the future?  and if you do, would you spend time reviewing other people's packages on revu? e.g. KDE packages?
[00:06] <NCommander> pub   1024D/9DA2DA9B 2008-07-06
[00:06] <NCommander> 07-06-2008
[00:06] <NCommander> apachelogger, I plan to apply for MOTU at the end of september, and for core-dev sometime into intrepid+1's cycle
[00:06] <NCommander> apachelogger, I always offer to help review packages on REVU, I was responsible for the first set of upgrades which gave REVU Launchpad intergration, and debrowned it
[00:07] <NCommander> (its got a Kubuntu-ish color style now)
[00:07] <JontheEchidna> yay for debrowning!
[00:07] <apachelogger> ok
[00:07] <apachelogger> final question
[00:07] <apachelogger> NCommander: when does revu get oxygen icons?
[00:07] <NCommander> apachelogger, it already has them
[00:08] <yuriy> NCommander: are you already an ubuntu or xubuntu member? (dunno if there is such a thing)
[00:08] <apachelogger> NCommander: don't see them :(
[00:08]  * NCommander can't get autocomplete to work
[00:08] <NCommander> apachelogger, rainCT said he installed that patch, not sure if he actually rolled to production yet, I'll have to ask
[00:08] <apachelogger> \o/
[00:08] <NCommander> yuriy, I'm an Xubuntu developer, and have a pending UUC application
[00:08] <Riddell> UUC?
[00:09] <JontheEchidna> Ubuntu Universe Contributor
[00:09]  * apachelogger is supporting NCommander's membership
[00:09]  * JontheEchidna needs to file one
[00:09] <Nightrose> Riddell: pre-motu
[00:09] <Riddell> what's the difference again?
[00:09] <apachelogger> hm
[00:09] <seele> sorry for the tardy
[00:09] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: UUC is motu-in-training I think
[00:09] <apachelogger> we talke about that, didn't we
[00:09] <apachelogger> hey seele
[00:09] <apachelogger> Riddell: UUC is the developer's member status
[00:10] <NCommander> One of my largest goals for Kubuntu and Ubuntu in general is porting it to armel, and m68k :-)
[00:10] <yuriy> wasn't enough beurocracy
[00:10] <NCommander> yes, and I'm serious on that second one
[00:10] <twylight> yay synaptic
[00:10] <Riddell> ah well, if we vote now he might not need it :)
[00:10] <JontheEchidna> NCommander: motorola 68k?
[00:10] <NCommander> JontheEchidna, m68k :-)
[00:10] <NCommander> I'll just need 30 or so emulators to get the build power up
[00:10] <JontheEchidna> haha
[00:10] <Nightrose> NCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing?
[00:10] <Riddell> +1 from me for lots of useful fixes
[00:10] <NCommander> I should also note I'm a Debian m68k developer, and a current NM
[00:11] <NCommander> I'm also a Debian hurd developer
[00:11] <JontheEchidna> +1, We need more low-level dudes in Kubuntu
[00:11] <NCommander> I've done some kernel hacking, and gcc love
[00:11] <NCommander> and ScottK has learned to corner me for fixing broken libtool and autofunk
[00:11] <Riddell> yuriy, Nightrose, seele?
[00:11] <yuriy> NCommander: done any of your own packaging?
[00:11] <seele> Riddell: i don't know what we are talking about
[00:12] <NCommander> yuriy, codeblocks, pangomm, both new
[00:12] <Riddell> seele: NCommander's membership
[00:12] <Nightrose> NCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing?
[00:12] <NCommander> yuriy, the entire xfce 4.6 alpha 0 release
[00:12] <NCommander> yuriy, (22 packages)
[00:12] <Nightrose> (repeated since it was missed it seems)
[00:12] <NCommander> yuriy, a whole lot of GNOME updates
[00:12] <NCommander> kde-meta
[00:13] <NCommander> And a load of fixes for kdelibs, kdenetwork (ported it to lpia and amd64), and koffice2
[00:13] <NCommander> I have 36 uploads not counting 20-30 backports
[00:13] <seele> NCommander: do you know c++?
[00:14]  * Nightrose feels ignored but gives a +1 anyway for low-level work noone else seems to be too keen on
[00:14] <NCommander> C, C++, x86 ASM, avr ASM, m68k ASM, ada, java, python, some perl, PHP, some C#
[00:14] <Nightrose> ;-)
[00:14] <NCommander> Visual Basic
[00:14] <seele> +1 from me if you fix system settings menu :)
[00:14] <NCommander> (maybe, not sure if I still remember it)
[00:14] <NCommander> COBOL
[00:14] <JontheEchidna> brb
[00:14] <seele> j/k
[00:14] <seele> +1
[00:14] <NCommander> I am working to fix the GNAT issues in Hardy ATM
[00:14] <yuriy> +1 for lots of important fixes
[00:14] <NCommander> (I think I scared -sru off, no one ever tried to upload 12 packages in a single go)
[00:14] <yuriy> despite mentioning Visual Basic ;)
[00:15] <Riddell> welcome to membership NCommander
[00:15] <NCommander> yuriy, I program in real mode x86 ASM
[00:15] <NCommander> yuriy, I know no fear :-)
[00:15] <Riddell> any other memberships tonight?
[00:15] <yuriy> welcome NCommander
[00:15] <NCommander> \o/
[00:15] <blizzz> congratz NCommander
[00:15] <NCommander> yay at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:15] <apachelogger> kubuntu.org!
[00:16] <apachelogger> we don't take kindly to .com
[00:16] <apachelogger> :P
[00:16] <NCommander> s/com/org
[00:16] <Riddell> apachelogger had some agenda items
[00:16] <apachelogger> Riddell: let's do UDS/FOSSCamp first
[00:16] <Riddell> if that makes sense
[00:16] <Riddell> who wants to come to UDS?
[00:17] <Riddell> we have had lots of great contibutors doing good stuff this cycle
[00:17] <NCommander> I do, but I can't make the date
[00:17]  * apachelogger can't either
[00:17] <Riddell> and it would be great to have lots of you there
[00:17] <NCommander> I might be able to do FOSSCamp however
[00:17] <Riddell> canonical typically sponsors five or so Kubuntu people
[00:17] <Riddell> so don't be shy
[00:17] <yuriy> what are the dates for FOSSCamp + UDS?
[00:17] <coreymon77> hi guys
[00:17] <coreymon77> sorry im late
[00:17] <NCommander> Riddell, I can get sponsorship on both through Xubuntu, so I don't need to take a spot from the Kubuntu team
[00:18] <seele> yuriy: december 5-6 for fosscamp, the following week for uds
[00:18] <Riddell> the process is different this time in that you have to nominate yourself and fill in the form thingy
[00:18] <Riddell> which currently requires you to find things you're interested in on brainstorm
[00:18] <yuriy> ah so Dec. 8-12 for UDS
[00:18] <NCommander> Grumpy Groundhog
[00:19] <Riddell> I'm told you can apply with specs and non-brainstorm topic ideas but I havn't had a response from jono to confirm that
[00:19] <Riddell> but we'll sort that out
[00:19] <yuriy> that's better than what I thought, I thought it was the week after, which is finals
[00:19] <NCommander> Riddell, I'd like to submit the through on KDE 4.1 on lpia; ATM, it exists, but its really not in a state great for netbooks
[00:19] <NCommander> *thought
[00:19] <Riddell> NCommander: go for it
[00:19] <apachelogger> Riddell: I guess you'll send a mail clearifying this to the list?
[00:20] <NCommander> The biggest hold up is we had loads of FTBFS on lpia which finally got cleared up
[00:20] <Riddell> apachelogger: clarifying which?
[00:20] <NCommander> Riddell, BTW, who adds me to Kubuntu-members?
[00:20] <apachelogger> Riddell: what stuff can be used for the sponsoring applicatoin
[00:20] <seele> Riddell: on the process
[00:20] <Riddell> NCommander: me
[00:20] <NCommander> cool
[00:20] <Riddell> apachelogger: I'd like to think jono would
[00:21] <seele> Riddell: he didnt send a mail to start with
[00:21] <apachelogger> fair enough :)
[00:21] <seele> Riddell: so i guess only people who read his blog are invited
[00:21] <Riddell> I'd also hope that he or jcastro will let us know the process for FOSSCamp sponsorships
[00:21] <Riddell> if there's suggestions of KDE people for that I'd like to hear
[00:21] <apachelogger> seele: mark mentioned it in his jackalope mail I think
[00:22] <yuriy> I'd like to go, but don't think I'd be able to skip the last week of class for it, plus I don't know what discussion I would lead or how much I'll actually be able to contribute in the next 7 months
[00:22] <Riddell> seele: or in the case of FOSSCamp, facebook :)
[00:22] <seele> apachelogger: ah well then everyone must know by now
[00:22]  * seele hides
[00:22] <apachelogger> lol
[00:22] <NCommander> apachelogger, anyway, if your interested in darwin-arm (iPhone) port of Ubuntu, its quite fessible
[00:23] <apachelogger> Riddell: you should get aseigo to fosscamp and make him a Kubuntu user again ;-)
[00:23] <Riddell> if you want me to look at your application text I'd be happy to do that
[00:23] <apachelogger> probably also god discussion partner for NCommander about small form factor devices
[00:23] <Riddell> I'll probably poke some people later in the week
[00:23] <Riddell> let's move on
[00:23] <NCommander> Well, for small form factor devices, we need mips and armel ports
[00:23] <NCommander> Since most small form are one of those two
[00:23] <seele> Riddell: it would be helpful that if we dont have to do brainstorm ideas that we have an email to send our "app" to
[00:24] <nixternal> hey hey, I am here...my train was a bit late tonight
[00:24] <seele> Riddell: jjesse said there is a 1000 character limit in the textbox
[00:24] <Riddell> seele: yeah, I'll talk to scott when he recovers from illness
[00:24] <NCommander> I'm willing to bootstrap the port if possible if someone can scrounge up fast hardware
[00:24]  * NCommander has a pitifully slow ARM box
[00:24] <Riddell> apachelogger: want to do you agenda items?
[00:24]  * apachelogger pokes JontheEchidna
[00:25] <apachelogger> ah well, my agenda partner got lost
[00:25] <apachelogger> The old kubuntu-team is going to become kubuntu-bugs
[00:25] <NCommander> apachelogger, as an aside, thanks for random :-P
[00:25] <apachelogger> NCommander: you're welcome :P
[00:26] <apachelogger> The list<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is being updated with latest and greatest KDE bugs (by now all of core KDE 4).
[00:26] <apachelogger> I'll announce it on the list and my blog and the channel when kubuntu-bugs is ready for joiners.
[00:27] <NCommander> apachelogger, I'd like to help beta test kubuntu-bugs setup and such
[00:27] <apachelogger> NCommander: not mutch to test really ;-)
[00:28]  * NCommander has a few things to bring up once apachelogger is done
[00:28] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna is doing a lot of work on bug triage, which makes me think that we all should spend a bit more time in malone and triage KDE bugs. A good triaged bug with a appropriate priority and upstram bug watch can help us improve the quality for Intrepid a lot compared to previous series.
[00:28]  * JontheEchidna is back
[00:28]  * apachelogger tells JontheEchidna to take over
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> Currently fully-triaged modules in Malone/Launchpad include:
[00:29] <Riddell> ok, anything else?
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> kdebase-workspace
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> kdebase-runtime
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> kde4libs
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> adept
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> What we really need help in are:
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> -kdepim
[00:29] <JontheEchidna> -kdebase, though it is getting better
[00:29] <yuriy> oh wow
[00:29]  * Riddell seconds wow
[00:29] <NCommander> as an aside, I recommend setting up ccache if you are going to work on kdepim due to the build time of that beast
[00:30] <apachelogger> Volunteers please poke JontheEchidna or me for help or introduction.
[00:30] <Nightrose> JontheEchidna++ apachelogger++
[00:30] <nixternal> bah ccache :P
[00:30] <JontheEchidna> Most of the -kde4 packages have had all of the bugs that are still relevant have been moved to their normal packages
[00:30] <apachelogger> Developers should take a look at the fully triaged modules and nominate stuff for Intrepid where it makes sense.
[00:30] <nixternal> debuild -nc && dh_install --list-missing --sourcedir=debian/tmp
[00:31] <apachelogger> Comments about bugs?
[00:31] <NCommander> nixternal, why list missing, why not fail-missing
[00:31] <Riddell> have you noticed much in the way of apport bugs since we turned it on for KDE?
[00:31] <nixternal> you get the same thing
[00:31] <NCommander> nixternal, fail-missing makes sure you properly add install lines for everything
[00:32] <Riddell> ahem, topic
[00:32] <NCommander> sorry
[00:32] <apachelogger> Riddell: Not really.
[00:32] <nixternal> --list-missing has yet to fail me now in the many many years of using it
[00:32] <apachelogger> However, apport has a problem with retracing.
[00:32] <Riddell> apachelogger: I wonder if that means nobody is using alphas or if KDE 4 just doesn't crash
[00:32] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: apport has been failing to retrace lately
[00:32] <JontheEchidna> a lot
[00:32] <NCommander> retracing?
[00:32] <apachelogger> It appears to me that apport can't retrace a crash if it was detected in a wrong binary package.
[00:33] <apachelogger> e.g. a crash is filed against phonon while it is happening in libxine, there is a good chance retracing is going to fail.
[00:33] <apachelogger> Riddell: Know anything about this?
[00:33] <Riddell> nope
[00:33] <Riddell> pitti is the dude for apport details
[00:34] <apachelogger> We'll do some investigation on this and poke him if it really seems to be the wrong binary package that caues the retrace to fail.
[00:34] <yuriy> so we'll need to bug him about that (no pun intended)
[00:34] <james_w> are you seeing it for Hardy or Intrepid?
[00:34] <apachelogger> NCommander: apport retraces crashes on LP if the reporting system was missing debugging symbols
[00:34] <apachelogger> james_w: Intrepid
[00:34] <NCommander> apachelogger, ah, that sounds about right
[00:35] <james_w> apachelogger: does it set "apport-failed-retrace" or they just don't get looked at?
[00:35] <yuriy> james_w: it does set it
[00:36] <james_w> ah, ok. Maybe some KDE-related dbgsym package is un-installable. pitti or seb128 will be able to investigate
[00:36] <james_w> I've seen plenty of bugs get retraced in the last couple of days, so it's not a global problem I don't think
[00:37] <Riddell> next item?
[00:37] <apachelogger> upgrade testing
[00:37] <Riddell> I plan to do lots of that next week
[00:37]  * vorian comes in late
[00:37] <yuriy> is there an upgrade path for people with -kde4 packages installed?
[00:37] <nixternal> I can attest that the upgrade was a mess, but that was more than likely due to KDE 3 and 4 being installed on my machine
[00:37] <apachelogger> I'd like to invite everyone to do upgrade testing hardy -> intrepid
[00:38] <apachelogger> well
[00:38] <NCommander> yuriy, we could make the path with a LOT of virtual packages
[00:38] <apachelogger> I'd like to have as many reports on this as possible
[00:38] <apachelogger> wrong configuration updates in KDE 3 -> KDE 4
[00:38] <Riddell> yuriy: that should be handled by the distupgrade tool but only for the last few days
[00:38] <yuriy> replaces/conflicts doesn't handle stuff like that?
[00:38] <mhb> apachelogger: I'll try to add a few
[00:38] <apachelogger> or file conflicts in packages
[00:38] <apachelogger> just anything you got
[00:38] <NCommander> yuriy, maybe
[00:38] <apachelogger> As of today VirtualBox should work with Intrepid again.
[00:39] <nixternal> the best thing to do is backup your stuff, go out to tty, kill kdm, rm -rf ~/.kde*, --purge remove all the old KDE stuff and then do an upgrade, then install kde4
[00:39] <vorian> virtual packages will be the way to go
[00:39] <Riddell> nixternal: it really shouldn't be like that
[00:39] <apachelogger> I suggest installing a plain KDE 3 hardy and a plain KDE 4 hardy, creating VM snapshots of both, and then test scenarios
[00:39] <nixternal> Riddell: it was last week when I tried on a machine at work
[00:39] <vorian> apachelogger: good plan
[00:39] <apachelogger> To speed up package download I can suggest apt-cacher (proxy for APT)
[00:39] <nixternal> apachelogger: that is a smoke test plan setup for failure though, as nobody is using plain this or that
[00:39] <apachelogger> You can find a howto for it @ help.ubuntu.com
[00:40] <apachelogger> nixternal: Plain as a basis to revert to
[00:40] <nixternal> I recommend setting up virtual box, and then installing everything you have locally, then copying ~/ to vbox and then try
[00:40] <yuriy> and first plain has to work before more complicated stuff can
[00:40] <apachelogger> Plain works pretty well from what I have seen
[00:41] <apachelogger> upgrading recommends of kubuntu-desktop doesn't work yet, but otherwise it should be ok
[00:41] <apachelogger> I'll try to write a short guide on upgrade testing within the next few days.
[00:41] <james_w> you might be interested in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-August/026017.html
[00:41] <apachelogger> Comments on upgrade testing?
[00:42] <nixternal> I would rather see a much steeper plan for testing than a basic one...I think in the past the basic tests have come back to bite us at times
[00:42] <apachelogger> james_w: thanks, bookmarked :)
[00:42] <vorian> i have no problem doing it on an actual partition
[00:42] <apachelogger> oh
[00:42] <apachelogger> Right!
[00:42] <Riddell> on a related topic, we got the ok for 8.04 to 9.04 upgrades this afternoon
[00:42] <apachelogger> Another important test case it o actually install on your PC/Laptop
[00:43] <Riddell> there's a bit of thinking into how to make that actually happen, but it should work
[00:43] <apachelogger> Riddell: Cool :)
[00:43] <apachelogger> When you install Intrepid on your PC/Laptop give the application a fancy use case test.
[00:44] <apachelogger> Like take your Laptop to all sorts of places with all sorts of different printer setup ans try to hook it up.
[00:44] <nixternal> apachelogger: that is something we need to come up with...we need to come up with a bunch of use cases and smoke testing standards
[00:44] <nixternal> how many here have been doing any sort of regression testing?
[00:44] <apachelogger> Or get a clean profile and try using features you normaly wouldn't use.
[00:44] <apachelogger> nixternal: Do you have time to write something?
[00:45] <seele> oh
[00:45]  * apachelogger can certainly document the scenarios he did so far.
[00:45] <seele> before we hit the next topic should we go through the todo list?
[00:45] <nixternal> apachelogger: I could make some...I am finalizing use cases and smoke test plans for a work project and I see how much of a difference they make when it comes to QA and bug triage
[00:45] <yuriy> next topic is jaunty? then yes
[00:45] <nixternal> I have a topic to add as well, actually a super call-for-help
[00:46] <apachelogger> yuriy: last it is
[00:46] <nixternal> I will do that last but I will need everyones help probably
[00:46] <apachelogger> Any more comments on upgrade testing?
[00:46] <seele> so since we were talking about testing.. what is left on the ToDo list?  what wont make it?
[00:46] <vorian> who's doing the test cases?
[00:46] <apachelogger> nixternal and me
[00:46] <yuriy> seele: something you're concerned about on the todo list?
[00:46] <nixternal> vorian: they need to be established first... seele, you have any UI test cases I could use as a basis?
[00:47] <apachelogger> In fact everyone could document what they are doing
[00:47] <nixternal> the UI ones I am using at work are web based cases
[00:47] <vorian> nixternal: yes, that's what i meant, sorry
[00:47] <seele> yuriy: no, i was just wonder where we were
[00:47] <seele> there hasn't been a complete go through of the todo for a while afaik
[00:47] <seele> i know JontheEchidna had gone through some parts
[00:47] <Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo seems fairly up to date
[00:47] <NCommander> What's the status on ubinity's KDE4 port?
[00:47] <NCommander> I dunno if someone started working on this or not
[00:48] <nixternal> ubiquity you mean?
[00:48] <NCommander> er, yeah
[00:48] <Riddell> NCommander: not heard of any change
[00:48] <NCommander> I looked and played with the source
[00:48] <nixternal> haha, had me confused for a second
[00:48] <JontheEchidna> seele: it should be pretty much up-to-date
[00:48] <NCommander> The port should be straightforward enough
[00:48] <nixternal> NCommander: the ubiquity code is very easy
[00:48] <Riddell> NCommander: yes it would be pretty quick
[00:48] <NCommander> It's a single file that needs a rewrite
[00:48] <yuriy> a couple things on there.. userconfig unfortunately I haven't had time for
[00:48] <Riddell> not a rewrite
[00:48] <seele> Riddell: what's left with system-config-printer-kde?
[00:48] <yuriy> kcmrandr I am concerned about
[00:48] <yuriy> it does _work_ to an extent
[00:48] <Riddell> seele: lots I'm afraid
[00:48] <apachelogger> NCommander: just porting from Q* to K*
[00:48] <Riddell> seele: lots of features missing, lots of usability stuff to do, lots of code tidying to do
[00:49] <NCommander> I can't find much in terms of docs on python-kde4
[00:49] <yuriy> but it's buggy and I haven't seen any way to configure dual head
[00:49] <apachelogger> NCommander: like using a KProcess instead of a QProcess
[00:49] <Riddell> seele: the basics work and it's in upstream KDE for 4.2
[00:49] <nixternal> I have to admit, KDE 4 + xrandr on a dual monitor setup == flawless for me...I totally love how I can change the wallpaper on each monitor...let me see another de or windows do that :)
[00:49] <yuriy> NCommander: there's documentation at reverbankcomputing
[00:49] <yuriy> NCommander: and mostly you can just use api.kde.org
[00:49] <NCommander> yuriy, link?
[00:50] <NCommander> I'll take a second look at it
[00:50] <Riddell> yuriy: that now includes sime's pykde api docs
[00:50] <yuriy> *riverbank
[00:50] <seele> Riddell: so it just needs tested?
[00:50] <yuriy> oh, well then ^^
[00:50] <Riddell> seele: testing is nice but mostly it needs more developer time
[00:50] <goatsocks> NCommander: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Languages/Python
[00:50] <seele> ack, so there's broken stuff?  or just missing stuff?
[00:50] <NCommander> Do we want to remove raw Qt support from Ubiquity in favor or KDE4, or support both if possible
[00:50] <Riddell> seele: just missing
[00:51] <seele> well that's better than broken.. :-/
[00:51] <Riddell> NCommander: let's do this out of meeting
[00:51] <NCommander> ah, ok
[00:52] <Riddell> we've had less coding team members this cycle (but lots more packaging going on) so stuff from KubuntuIntrepidDefaults remains undone
[00:52] <apachelogger> *adds new agenda item about that*
[00:53] <apachelogger> Oh right.
[00:53] <nixternal> Riddell: I can do some coding
[00:53] <NCommander> [IDEA] Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding
[00:53] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding
[00:53] <nixternal> C++ or Python, your choice :)
[00:53] <apachelogger> We don't have a mountconfig port on the way, do we?
[00:53] <Riddell> nope
[00:53] <seele> is smarter here?
[00:53] <NCommander> I did the Xfce 4.6 exit dialog, I can maybe work on doing it on KDE, but I honestly don't use Qt so my basis is limited
[00:53] <apachelogger> I'd like to suggest mountmanager as replacement
[00:53] <apachelogger> seele: he is in bed
[00:53] <seele> hrm
[00:54] <Riddell> I always think of mountconfig has being a feature failure, users shouldn't have to care about fstab
[00:54] <seele> is kvkbd supposed to be an access tool or onscreen keyboard for tablets?
[00:54] <nixternal> seele: access tool
[00:54] <goatsocks> apachelogger: the mountmanager UI is really bad, looks like it was designed by an engineer: http://img.flashtux.org/img13269103725x67eec7f8.png
[00:54] <Riddell> seele: accesilibility primarily
[00:54] <nixternal> I think it is dead though, I haven't spoken to the dev in a while now
[00:54] <mhb> Riddell: people should be able to mount their networked discs, though
[00:54] <apachelogger> goatsocks: well, I share Riddell's opinion on fstab stuff
[00:54] <goatsocks> apachelogger: not to mention it uses qt4 but somehow doesn't pick up my kde style or qt4 style, and uses its own fonts and plastik
[00:54] <seele> nixternal: it got ported and smarter asked me to look at it the other day
[00:54] <Riddell> mhb: we have KDE ways of doing that
[00:55] <apachelogger> goatsocks: doesn't here, might be sudo related
[00:55] <Riddell> for home network use cases anyway
[00:55] <mhb> Riddell: do you?
[00:55] <apachelogger> network:/
[00:55] <seele> you can do that through Dolphin, can't you?
[00:55] <mhb> Riddell: well then they never were well presented, I guess.
[00:55] <apachelogger> seele: network in the sidebar ;-)
[00:55] <Riddell> mhb: no I think that could be done better
[00:55] <mhb> Riddell: and of course, having a KDE-only way is silly, and should not be preferred.
[00:56] <nixternal> hehe, I see I am not the only one using skulpture theme
[00:56] <seele> apachelogger: yes, i dont use it, i just thought it did exist
[00:56] <mhb> people also use non-KDE apps, like OO, keep that in mind, please.
[00:56] <goatsocks> hotplug mounting is best handled by either kwikdisk (shipped with kdeutils) or the device notifier plasmoid
[00:56] <yuriy> mhb: we'll have to fix that ;)
[00:56] <apachelogger> mhb: last I checked ooo supports most of the slaves somewhat
[00:57] <apachelogger> like smb:/ seems to be working IIRC
[00:57] <Riddell> apachelogger: who's advocating that we include mount manager?
[00:58] <apachelogger> me I guess ;-)
[00:58] <Riddell> apachelogger: what's your rationale?
[00:58] <mhb> yuriy: I'm not sure we should - I wouldn't like a one-colour world
[00:58] <apachelogger> We don't have a mount manager right now
[00:58] <Riddell> apachelogger: but what's the usecase for you?
[00:58] <nixternal> sure we do, it's called the user :P
[00:58] <nixternal> I think everyone needs to learn udev rules
[00:59] <apachelogger> Riddell: Advanced users might want to fiddle with their fstab, we should give them a tool to do that.
[00:59] <seele> apachelogger: advanced users would edit /etc/fstab?
[01:00] <apachelogger> most likely, pimp their settings
[01:00] <apachelogger> Also mountmanger got an "easy" ISO mount pluign
[01:00] <nixternal> seele: nah, udev rules..that is true pimping and my new best friend
[01:00] <yuriy> apachelogger: what happened to kiso?
[01:00] <nixternal> I have written so many damn udev rules now for our appliances at work, that I absolutely love it
[01:00] <apachelogger> yuriy: KDE 3
[01:00] <yuriy> no port?
[01:00] <apachelogger> Didn't see one so far
[01:00] <apachelogger> Anyway, mountmanager got problems.
[01:01] <apachelogger> As goatsocks said the GUI isn't exactly user friendly.
[01:01] <mhb> My opinion is that even though a mount manager per se is not necessary, we should not really just use some KDE-only technology and feel done with it.
[01:01] <apachelogger> And some weird documentation issues
[01:01] <nixternal> mhb: what other technology do you recommend?
[01:02] <nixternal> and what would you think about making a Qt fork or port of it?
[01:02] <mhb> nixternal: any system-wide stuff that works for mixed systems, the one every non-radical user has
[01:02] <Riddell> apachelogger: I can confirm the UI strangeness, looking at it
[01:02] <mhb> a bit of this, a byte of that
[01:02] <goatsocks> gnome uses some harebrained mounter based on fuse, never works
[01:02] <nixternal> goatsocks: I got it to work once!
[01:03] <mhb> nixternal: I prefer mounting to KIO slaves.
[01:03] <apachelogger> Riddell: Maybe we should consider it on a long term. Get in touch with upstream, propose some improvements and see whether he wants to cooperate
[01:03] <mhb> nixternal: if that's what you meant. Mounting is system-wide, KIO slaves only for KDE apps.
[01:04] <yuriy> mhb: I think we should do the best with the technology we have rather than trying to cater to the lowest common denominator. but this is getting off topic.
[01:04] <nixternal> mhb: +1 on that idea honestly, but unfortunately unless there is something out there already, I don't see the time to implement such a thing this release
[01:04] <mhb> ok
[01:04]  * apachelogger wants to note that we should focus on QA for intrepid mostly
[01:05] <Riddell> apachelogger: that sounds good, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about it currently as a tool with notable UI problems on top of being unconvinced of the usecase
[01:06] <apachelogger> Ok, I'll contact upstream and target 9.04 as possible inclusion series.
[01:06] <Riddell> next item?
[01:06] <seele> planning for intrepid
[01:06] <Nightrose> move to and copy to in dolphin
[01:06] <seele> what are our goals for intrepid and what would we like to accomplish
[01:06] <seele> er
[01:06] <seele> jaunty
[01:06] <seele> gah
[01:07]  * apachelogger finds that a bit early really :P
[01:07]  * seele falls over
[01:07] <Nightrose> seele: mind if I do the dolphin stuff now - it will be  quick
[01:07] <seele> oh, i didnt see it on the list sorry
[01:07] <Nightrose> it is not there sorry
[01:07] <Riddell> Nightrose: go go
[01:07] <apachelogger> Nightrose can't edit the wiki either :P
[01:07] <Nightrose> so sealne proposed to enable "move to" and "copy to" in the right click menu by default in dolphin
[01:07] <Nightrose> I think that is a really good idea
[01:08] <Nightrose> right now you have to enable it in the settings
[01:08] <Nightrose> and it will probably go unnoticed by a lot of users
[01:08] <Nightrose> I loved that feature in kde 3
[01:08] <Riddell> file management through right click menu never seems very user friendly to me
[01:08] <apachelogger> hm
[01:08] <apachelogger> +1
[01:08] <Nightrose> the advantage is that you don't need to have the source and destination dir open
[01:08] <seele> why was it taken out or was it not in dolphin by default?
[01:08] <Nightrose> but only the source dir
[01:09] <Nightrose> which i think is great
[01:09] <apachelogger> Well
[01:09]  * apachelogger tests
[01:09] <Nightrose> seele: it was default in konqui
[01:09] <seele> Nightrose: yes i know
[01:09] <Nightrose> no idea why it is not default in doplhin now
[01:09] <seele> do you know why it wasn't enabled in Dolphin?
[01:09] <seele> hmm
[01:10] <apachelogger> It makes sense for advanced users IMHO
[01:10] <nixternal> actually, the "copy to" feature is used a lot by newer users unfamiliar with the command line
[01:10] <apachelogger> Not for the target audience though.
[01:10] <nixternal> we just did a test and that was one thing they missed in gnome I heard
[01:10] <apachelogger> nixternal: What does 'new users' mean in this context?
[01:11] <nixternal> non-apachelogger's
[01:11] <nixternal> :P
[01:11] <Riddell> we should probably ask Peter Penz for his view on it
[01:11] <nixternal> +1
[01:11] <apachelogger> +1
[01:11] <Nightrose> ok
[01:11] <seele> i'd want to ask the dolphin devs to see why it wasnt in there to start with
[01:11] <Nightrose> alright
[01:11] <Nightrose> I will talk to sealne
[01:11] <Nightrose> and try to get in touch with Peter
[01:11] <apachelogger> perfect
[01:11] <Riddell> it's more popular than I expected amonst kubuntu developers anyway
[01:12] <apachelogger> developers aren't good users though ;-)
[01:12] <seele> are those devs using dolphin or still using konq as a file manager?
[01:12]  * Nightrose is using dolphin all the time now
[01:12] <nixternal> apachelogger: they weren't developers, they were your typical emailers, web browsers, and photo album people
[01:12] <Riddell> dolphin here
[01:12] <JontheEchidna> I never used Konq
[01:12] <nixternal> it was put on by UIC I think just recently
[01:12] <NCommander> dolphin for me
[01:12] <NCommander> (when running KDE)
[01:13] <seele> nixternal: who did the study?  twidale?
[01:13] <JontheEchidna> Dolphin ftw
[01:13] <nixternal> I use yakuake as a file manager :)
[01:13] <NCommander> konq always felt slow and bloated
[01:13] <blizzz> konsole in first line, dolphin then
[01:13]  * apachelogger rembmers that a lot of people complained about switching to dolphin in KDE3 :P
[01:13] <nixternal> seele: dunno who did it, I just know a few of the students who were apart of it
[01:13] <seele> hmmm
[01:13] <nixternal> and twidale does sound familiar to me
[01:13] <Nightrose> apachelogger: because it was not as great as it is now
[01:13] <JontheEchidna> Konq always felt like there was too much there for movign around my files
[01:13] <Riddell> let's move on
[01:13] <blizzz> well, on my machine at work with kde3 i use konquerer
[01:13] <seele> nixternal: big time IS researcher at uiuc who did some of the first work on open source usability ;)
[01:14] <apachelogger> jaunty it is
[01:14] <Riddell> I suggest KDE 4.2
[01:14] <Nightrose> yea
[01:14] <apachelogger> definitely
[01:14] <Nightrose> next one
[01:14] <seele> what's the cut off to know which point release we can use?
[01:14] <apachelogger> release date
[01:14] <seele> we should have at least 4.2.1, there are going to be a lot of changes in 4.2
[01:14] <apachelogger> which would be 4.2.2 I think
[01:15] <Riddell> we can generally go with the latest one thanks to the nice 6 month release schedule
[01:15] <apachelogger> yes
[01:15] <apachelogger> I think we should focus on QA mostly though
[01:15] <Nightrose> Riddell: you should mention that in the release schedule thread on k-c-d btw
[01:15] <Nightrose> people were asking if it is worth it to stick to it
[01:15] <seele> what are some important things we didnt get to for intrepid that we should plan for in jaunty?
[01:15] <Riddell> Nightrose: yes, I will when I get round to reading e-mail
[01:16] <Nightrose> ok
[01:16] <JontheEchidna> I think Jaunty should be about taming this KDE 4.1 tiger we've made
[01:16] <seele> Printing and Adept are on my list of things we should focus on in terms of software
[01:16] <JontheEchidna> bringing it out of the jungle through QA "training"
[01:16] <seele> they both need love
[01:16] <Riddell> yes, it should be a KDE 4 fit for your parents
[01:16] <Riddell> really finish system-config-printer-kde
[01:16] <apachelogger> most stuff is upstream I think
[01:17] <JontheEchidna> Great QA will also help upstream projects like Adept
[01:17] <apachelogger> ark context menus is a very itching issue, a lot of users are missing that
[01:17] <Riddell> or look at PackageKit again
[01:17]  * JontheEchidna is missing ark context menus
[01:17] <seele> what about a samba UI?  that was an ubuntu brainstorm idea with a lot of votes
[01:17] <Riddell> seele: for configuration?
[01:17] <seele> yeah
[01:18] <apachelogger> hm
[01:18] <JontheEchidna> there is a samba kcm module which is a bit buggy
[01:18] <apachelogger> low priority IMHO
[01:18] <nixternal> samba UI? wasn't there something called swat for that?
[01:18] <Riddell> seele: or just simple file sharing?  we did have a spec for that from last UDS
[01:18] <blizzz> what about smb4k?
[01:18] <seele> Riddell: we did?
[01:18] <nixternal> smb4k sooks
[01:18] <nixternal> it is constantly eating peoples sudoers files
[01:18] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: not as much as knetworkconf
[01:18] <Riddell> seele: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFilesharing
[01:18] <nixternal> but smb4k makes it easy to steal from fellow students who are using windows at the university :P
[01:18] <apachelogger> nixternal: why does it mess with that anyway?
[01:18] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: you basically can't give any users samba accounts
[01:19] <JontheEchidna> still less broken than knetworkconf :P
[01:19] <apachelogger> doesn't that work out of the box?
[01:19] <apachelogger> i.e. every system user == samba user?
[01:19] <nixternal> apachelogger: I have no clue...I fixed it once upon a time and then I heard it came back
[01:19] <apachelogger> makes more sense to mee than a configuration UI
[01:20] <apachelogger> also less work
[01:20] <Riddell> automatic codec install would be nice
[01:20] <apachelogger> Riddell: did you talk with eean about that?
[01:20]  * slangasek notes that installing libpam-smbpass in intrepid should now magick your pam config to auto-create users
[01:20] <Riddell> apachelogger: briefly I think, didn't get much of an outcome as I mind
[01:21] <seele> ok, so samba yes or no?
[01:21] <Riddell> seele: is it different from that Filesharing spec?
[01:21] <apachelogger> Nightrose: could you sound whether eean can get us automagic codec installation?
[01:21]  * yuriy ate dinner and forgot this meeting was still going on
[01:21] <apachelogger> lol
[01:21] <seele> Riddell: no now i remembered we talked about this
[01:21] <Riddell> heliocastro was also talking about codec installing today
[01:22] <yuriy> what are we on?
[01:22] <seele> so ok.. filesharing yes or no.. whatever you want to call it
[01:22] <Riddell> yuriy: jaunty topics
[01:22] <Nightrose> apachelogger: i could try but...
[01:22] <Nightrose> easy sharing would be cool imho
[01:22] <apachelogger> seele: yes .... without having read the spec I want to add a "in reasonable time effort" to that ;-)
[01:22] <Riddell> seele: it's quite a large chunk of essentially upstream coding, it's something I think we're missing a lot but I doubt I'll find time
[01:22] <apachelogger> IMHO avahi is the way to go
[01:23] <seele> ok, so that is a no
[01:23] <nixternal> avahi only works on macs
[01:23] <Riddell> unless someone actively volunteers
[01:23] <apachelogger> well
[01:23] <nixternal> I have yet to have a positive avahi experience
[01:23] <NCommander> avadi is multicast DNS, right?
[01:23] <apachelogger> your avahi setup sucks to b ehonest
[01:23] <apachelogger> took me a bit of debugging to get kepas running
[01:23] <apachelogger> NCommander: yes
[01:24] <NCommander> Is there any reason why we simply don't use the open Apple Zeroconf?
[01:24] <nixternal> Riddell: I have a future plan on creating a killer file sharing app that uses our distributed storage network
[01:24] <NCommander> Which I find works out of the box even on Windows?
[01:24]  * NCommander has never had avahi work period
[01:24] <apachelogger> NCommander: it is that
[01:24] <nixternal> similar in concept to waula or whatever it is called, but with coorporate backing and a hell of a lot more speed, experience, stability, and love :)
[01:24] <NCommander> Doesn't seem like it; I've compiled mDNSResponsor from source, and I don't remember having those issues
[01:25] <Riddell> there may be choices for K-Menu replacements in jaunty timeframe
[01:25] <Riddell> we should evaluate them
[01:25] <apachelogger> yes
[01:25] <JontheEchidna> Lancelot ftw
[01:25] <apachelogger> Raptor ftw
[01:25] <JontheEchidna> Raptor did look kool
[01:25] <apachelogger> ok, I might be biased there
[01:25]  * Nightrose thinks lancelot is nice but switched back to kick-off
[01:25] <apachelogger> Raptor is pretty much an oxygen child :P
[01:26] <apachelogger> More thoughts on jaunty?
[01:26] <seele> Raptor doesnt exist yet, has Ruphy begun coding it yet?
[01:26] <apachelogger> seele: he keeps telling me "soon" ;-)
[01:26] <apachelogger> for half a year now
[01:26] <seele> yeah
[01:26] <Riddell> that doesn't sound promising
[01:26] <JontheEchidna> Once Lancelot gets some polish it should rock even harder
[01:26] <apachelogger> well, I trust in the oxygen team
[01:26] <apachelogger> but we will see
[01:26] <JontheEchidna> than it does now
[01:27] <seele> Riddell: did your soc student finish the printer ui?
[01:27] <Riddell> seele: not that I've noticed
[01:27] <Riddell> there was a UI there but I don't think applications have been talking to it
[01:28]  * apachelogger just forgot what he wanted to write
[01:29] <apachelogger> Anyway, more comments on jaunty?
[01:29] <seele> Riddell: is the printer config just getting finished and done with or is there UI work to do?
[01:29] <seele> it doesn't look so great right now, but i dont know if its because most of it is missing or whate
[01:30] <Riddell> seele: system-config-printer-kde?  there's still your UI spec that I'd like to implement (or have someone implement)
[01:30] <seele> hmm.. ok.  we should probably look at that again at UDS
[01:30] <Riddell> yep
[01:31]  * nixternal can't wait for UDS
[01:31] <seele> we had a UI spec for the GRUB editor, but it changed significantly when Artemis_Fowl took over
[01:31] <apachelogger> oh
[01:31] <apachelogger> What is the QA status of kgrubeditor?
[01:31] <seele> no one has reported any badness
[01:31] <Riddell> works for me
[01:32] <seele> all minor bugs/ui annoyances have been fixed except for two things workflow related
[01:32] <NCommander> seems to work fine here
[01:32] <seele> we've deferred it to post intrepid
[01:32] <apachelogger> Awesome.
[01:32] <seele> i think there are three things on the TODO list, but they are features and wont get in
[01:32] <apachelogger> depends on the features really, but I'd like to focus on QA really
[01:32] <seele> improving the password management workflow, figuring out what to do about the Tools page, and improving the OS information page
[01:33] <seele> yeah, i think it is good as it is and there isnt a need to try and rush the other stuff in
[01:33] <apachelogger> *nod*
[01:33] <Riddell> should it go into upstream KDE for 4.2?
[01:33] <apachelogger> Riddell: depends in Artemis_Fowl wants to
[01:33] <seele> Riddell: yes, but i would like to fix password management before we do that
[01:34] <apachelogger> it certainly would make sense IMHO
[01:34] <Riddell> right, we can suggest it to him when he next appears
[01:34] <seele> apachelogger: i'm pretty sure he does
[01:34] <seele> apachelogger: he converted it to a kcm so it could be
[01:34] <apachelogger> yes
[01:34] <apachelogger> but
[01:35] <apachelogger> I suggested him to go extragear and target inclusion in kdeadmin. He preferred moving to Bzr.
[01:35] <seele> ah, technical stuff i know nothing about
[01:35] <apachelogger> :)
[01:35]  * apachelogger continues with more technical stuff
[01:35] <apachelogger> 4.1.1 live CDs
[01:35] <seele> it would be great if we could get one big app like that done a cycle
[01:36] <seele> printing is the target for jaunty as long as Riddell doesnt tire of me
[01:36] <JontheEchidna> I saw one review that accredited systemsettings to suse
[01:36] <JontheEchidna> we need to be more vocal about our upstream contributions :P
[01:36] <apachelogger> We need to be more vocal about everything
[01:36] <apachelogger> ryanakca: around?
[01:36] <seele> JontheEchidna: i think most of the modules were written by suse people
[01:37] <apachelogger> hm
[01:37] <apachelogger> Let's move on.
[01:37] <ryanakca> apachelogger: yes... oh. Hmm. Looks like there was a meeting...
[01:37] <apachelogger> lol
[01:37] <apachelogger> ryanakca: want to say something about promotion and marketing?
[01:37]  * apachelogger doesn't have a plan regarding kubuntu marketing yet.
[01:38] <JontheEchidna> our current marketing strategy is screenie
[01:38] <JontheEchidna> \o/
[01:38] <apachelogger> that is no strategy :P
[01:38] <ryanakca> Nor do I so far... I can try to think up of a few ideas and then I can poke whoever is interested on the weekend...
[01:38] <nixternal> I know someone with a marketing background that has been more than willing to help, but never got the nod
[01:38] <Riddell> well we can discuss it at UDS
[01:39] <ryanakca> Website tasks are always open for those interested... that would be promotional :)
[01:39]  * apachelogger is not at UDS :P
[01:39]  * ryanakca isn't either :/
[01:39] <apachelogger> nixternal: oh
[01:39] <nixternal> uds still in december?
[01:39] <Riddell> nixternal: yes
[01:39] <seele> who is planning to app to UDS?
[01:39] <apachelogger> ryanakca: maybe we should do a meeting regarding kubuntu marketing?
[01:39] <nixternal> apachelogger: ya, I only have 2 degrees in business and marketing...did marketing research and analysis for the chicago cubs
[01:39] <apachelogger> that emunkki is interessted in joining as well
[01:39] <nixternal> maybe that's the reason they can't win the world series :P
[01:40] <vorian> I'm hopihng to make it to uds
[01:40] <apachelogger> lol
[01:40] <vorian> hoping even
[01:40] <apachelogger> nixternal: do you have time for a meeting at the weekdn?
[01:40] <vorian> why not get with the loco guys to figure out some grass roots type markeitng
[01:40] <nixternal> I am not hoping, I know I am already going to UDS just as soon as I get my sponshorship email...already have the time off
[01:40] <nixternal> apachelogger: the weekends work best for me
[01:40] <apachelogger> ok
[01:40] <nixternal> early weekends, ie. 1300 UTC
[01:41] <apachelogger> ryanakca: does that work for you?
[01:41] <ryanakca> apachelogger: Yes... any time during the day this weekend (EST) should be good for me, shall we pick a time in -devel, or is the meeting over?
[01:41] <apachelogger> well, let's continue this in -devel
[01:41] <apachelogger> I have more to talk about here :P
[01:41] <JontheEchidna> ya, this meeting's running a bit long
[01:41] <NCommander> There was one pointy for jackalope I wanted to bring up
[01:41] <NCommander> *point
[01:41]  * NCommander can't spell tonight
[01:41] <nixternal> well hurry up, I need to go meet my girlyfriend for dinner some time tonight :P
[01:41]  * apachelogger pokes NCommander later
[01:42] <apachelogger> The precious german kubuntu doods started remastering the KDE 4 hardy CD with KDE 4.1.1
[01:42] <apachelogger> vorian is working on an amd64 version
[01:42] <vorian> yus!
[01:42] <apachelogger> We certainly need some testing, please poke me if you got some spare time.
[01:43] <nixternal> I need to get a new computer as my main dev/testing machine is dead
[01:43] <apachelogger> One last thing.
[01:44] <apachelogger> Do you think it makes sense to recruit @ fairs?
[01:44] <nixternal> yes
[01:44] <vorian> oh yes
[01:44] <apachelogger> Riddell mentioned earlier that we were running low on application devs this cycle
[01:44] <nixternal> you know how many people I have gotten involved through fairs? a lot!
[01:44] <apachelogger> ok
[01:44] <apachelogger> We should enforce this a bit then
[01:44] <nixternal> but at the same time, I have been to fairs with jono and jorge, and they tend to try and convert me to that g thing
[01:45] <apachelogger> The german doods are at 5 fairs a year I think.
[01:45] <Riddell> my first expo was on a KDE stand with Jono
[01:45] <vorian> OlF will be a good front for Kubuntu
[01:45] <apachelogger> And they don't really do recuriting
[01:45] <nixternal> then they ask me to package g thing apps for them, and I do, with K based rootkits :P
[01:45] <vorian> hehe
[01:45] <apachelogger> Riddell: in the good old times ;-)
[01:45] <blizzz> i'd like to start with a minor "beginner" task for jackalope, but will ping Riddell then
[01:45] <nixternal> Riddell: hahaha, I heckled jono for his KDE work when he tried dissing it at penguicon
[01:46] <apachelogger> blizzz: can you direct this request to the german team: recruit developers @ fairs
[01:46] <apachelogger> Works for Google :D
[01:46] <seele> are there any upstream contributors using kubuntu?
[01:46] <blizzz> apachelogger: i can
[01:46] <seele> we could recruit them to do some heavy lifting
[01:46] <apachelogger> ruphy is
[01:46] <nixternal> ya, but lets not recruit like google....they get recruits from fairs, give them high hopes, only to stomp on them by not hiring them as real employees because it is policy
[01:46] <apachelogger> seele: upstream devs mostly switch distros very frequently
[01:46] <Riddell> seele: as in KDE developers?  I saw loads of Kubuntu screens at akademy
[01:47] <JontheEchidna> that's cool
[01:47] <seele> Riddell: start tapping shoulders!
[01:47] <seele> apachelogger: we only need them for 6 months at a time ;)
[01:47] <Riddell> seele: what sort of lifting are you thinking of?
[01:47] <apachelogger> nixternal: Hm, ok, would have been fun though :P
[01:47] <apachelogger> seele: true
[01:48] <seele> Riddell: something like printing that will eventually go upstream, filesharing, etc.
[01:48] <blizzz> i'll have a talk at ubucon where i can inlcude this
[01:48] <nixternal> apachelogger: I have seen a lot of people join the Ubuntu community thinking that some day they would get a job with Canonical...so you have to watch out
[01:48] <neversfelde>  hard to find real devs out there, we thought about some kind of workshop, but the organizer left to opensolaris
[01:48] <nixternal> lol
[01:49] <nixternal> sounds like me...I was planning on the same thing here, but got a real job
[01:49] <Riddell> seele: trouble with stuff like that is we're filling them in just because upstream developers don't care.  I got zero replies to the s-c-p review time in kdereview except someone from Mandriva
[01:49] <nixternal> had to pay the bills
[01:49] <apachelogger> nixternal: as long as they help out until they recognize that we are a 2nd class citizen I really don't care :P
[01:49] <JontheEchidna> blueheaded stepchild, that's us!
[01:49] <nixternal> hahah, nice
[01:49] <nixternal> JontheEchidna: that's the winner right there
[01:49] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: blue = drunken in german :P
[01:49] <JontheEchidna> haha, awesome
[01:49] <nixternal> that's definitely us!
[01:49] <seele> Riddell: so printing was a bust, there has to be other things that we would benefit from
[01:49] <apachelogger> yus
[01:50] <apachelogger> Riddell: I think we can end the meeting. Nightrose is already half asleep ;-)
[01:50] <Nightrose> hehe indeed
[01:50] <Riddell> yes, I'm getting tired and I've run out of irn-bru
[01:50] <Nightrose> i should go to bed
[01:50] <Nightrose> need to get up in a few hours
[01:50] <seele> irn-bru ew
[01:51] <nixternal> seele: +1 with you there :)
[01:51] <nixternal> I still can't understand the taste
[01:51] <nixternal> we have a pub in chicago that has it
[01:51]  * Nightrose hands cookies and milk to everyone as apachelogger promissed
[01:51] <Nightrose> :P
[01:51] <Nightrose> nini folks :)
[01:51] <apachelogger> \o/
[01:51] <nixternal> nite Nightrose
[01:51] <Riddell> thanks all for the meeting, I can write up minutes tomorrow morning if nobody else volunteers
[01:52] <seele> Riddell: you just volunteered ;P
[01:52] <apachelogger> lol
[01:52] <NCommander> argh, of course the meeting ends I didn't get my point out :-P
[01:52] <apachelogger> oh
[01:52] <apachelogger> NCommander: rush it in
[01:52] <Riddell> NCommander: quick quick
[01:52] <NCommander> Roughly speaking, I know that Nokia gave a bunch of KDE developers internet tablets, and I think intrepid+1 should look at seriously porting and supporting these devices
[01:52] <NCommander> */exhale*
[01:53] <nixternal> #endmeeting <- Riddell
[01:53] <apachelogger> NCommander: KDE is working on that ;-)
[01:53] <NCommander> apachelogger, I don't think they're porting Kubuntu ;-)
[01:53] <apachelogger> NCommander: you should get in touch with aseigo, maybe he can get you a device.
[01:53] <NCommander> I have to bootstrap the port first
[01:53] <NCommander> :-)
[01:54] <JontheEchidna> so apparently plasma is making an MID interface
[01:54] <JontheEchidna> would be cool to have a Kubuntu MID edition
[01:54] <Riddell> NCommander: I've no idea what the status of the ubuntu Arm plans are
[01:55] <seele> Riddell: hum.. another thing we should look at for jaunty is how much config is outside system settings and what can be easily converted to kcm
[01:55] <seele> ;-P
[01:55] <JontheEchidna> userconfig, jockey, and printer are the ones off the top of my head
[01:55] <JontheEchidna> :P
[01:55] <seele> there are a bunch of access tools that are floating in kickoff
[01:55] <NCommander> Riddell, it appears dead on arrival w.r.t. to the current porting ideas, so I just want to sit down and bootstrap the port :-)
[01:56] <seele> we should aim to get all the extracurricular stuff out of kickoff and make it apps only
[01:56] <Riddell> NCommander: I can offer ssh access if you need it :)
[01:56] <NCommander> Riddell, can that include root access?
[01:56] <NCommander> (I need to compile and install some serious system software)
[01:56] <Riddell> NCommander: yeah although I'd need to work out how to enable that
[01:57] <Riddell> #endmeeting
[01:57] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:57.
[01:57] <apachelogger> that clock seems way off
[01:57] <NCommander> Riddell, I have an ARM box which I can use for the basis of getting things started for this port, its more of a matter of finding possible buildds
[01:57] <apachelogger> we started at 23 and end at 19?
[01:57] <NCommander> apachelogger, file a bug
[01:57] <seele> lol
[01:57]  * apachelogger thinks the LHC opened a time rift!
[01:58] <NCommander> Ack, next thing you'll know, the Debian project will merge with Ubuntu
[02:03] <Riddell> 02:02 < JontheEchidna> if KOffice is ready for jaunty, that'd free up some disk space
[02:03] <JontheEchidna> I hereby approve the above quote
[02:03] <JontheEchidna> :P
[02:05]  * apachelogger likes the above quote
[02:20] <Daisuke_Ido> jaunty?  really?
[15:59] <pitti> hi
[16:00]  * ScottK-palm is here via cel phone and will be present as connectivity and battery allow.
[16:00] <cjwatson> good afternoon
[16:01] <slangasek> 'morning
[16:01] <dendrobates> 'ello
[16:01] <rtg> I'm a pgraner lookalike
[16:01] <cjwatson> pitti is a Keybuk lookalike, I assume
[16:01] <heno> hello
[16:01] <pitti> actually I'll be here regularly
[16:02] <pitti> being the tech lead for our team
[16:02] <pitti> (and still being release assistant)
[16:02] <cjwatson> which means we're missing mobile, Kubuntu, X, and whoever else I forgot
[16:02] <cjwatson> pitti: right, but in addition :-)
[16:02] <pitti> I talked to Riddell an hour ago
[16:02] <pitti> cjwatson: doing my best to act like two persons :)
[16:02] <cjwatson> bryce,tjaalton: either of you here?
[16:03] <tjaalton> cjwatson: yep
[16:04] <slangasek> ok, let's go ahead and get started with the folks that are here
[16:04]  * ScottK-palm can at least generally talk to Kubuntu if he doesn't make it.
[16:04] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is slangasek.
[16:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:04] <slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
[16:04] <slangasek> heno: go ahead, please?
[16:05] <heno> hi
[16:05] <heno> Thanks cjwatson and others for looking into the landscape issue
[16:06] <heno> we've not confirmed that this has unblocked us, but will soon
[16:06] <dendrobates> heno: I think you mean the cdimage building  bug  :)
[16:06] <dendrobates> server iso built fine.
[16:06] <heno> we are also concerned about bug 201786
[16:07] <Riddell> hi
[16:07] <heno> dendrobates: well, slice it how you like :) It was a complex issue
[16:07] <slangasek> how soon is 'soon'?  I guess we still have quite a bit of hardware certification to get results in on for 2.6.27 before we can make an informed decision on the intrepid kernel
[16:08] <heno> slangasek: today we'll know if tests are running again
[16:08] <pitti> heno: hm, can you reproduce this? I haven't had problems with seahorse any more in weeks (it was quite broken earlier indeed, thogh)
[16:08] <heno> bdmurray: I think you flagged this ^
[16:08] <slangasek> heno: that refers to the smoke testing, I guess?  not to hardware certification tests?
[16:09] <heno> slangasek: I was talking about cert tests. manual smoke tests will resume monday
[16:10] <slangasek> heno: ok, great
[16:10] <sbeattie> heno: I think bdmurray is offline at the moment
[16:10] <slangasek> bug #201786> who should follow up to find out if it's still reproducible?
[16:11] <pitti> I think this is a bit convoluted
[16:11] <pitti> the original report was for hardy
[16:11] <pitti> then in early intrepid seahorse was completely broken
[16:11] <pitti> and almost everyone's ssh broke
[16:11] <pitti> but that was fixed weeks ago again
[16:11] <pitti> so there might still be the original corner case, of course
[16:12] <pitti> but hard to say without being able to reproduce
[16:12] <slangasek> I don't see anything in the log that explains this as a corner case
[16:13] <slangasek> pitti: can we assign this to you for follow-up since you're conversant with the issue?
[16:13] <pitti> well, I have no clue at all about the original issue, I just know the bug and fix in intrepid, but sure
[16:13] <pitti> I can more or less forward this to upstream and play relay
[16:13] <slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to follow up on bug #201786
[16:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up on bug #201786
[16:13] <slangasek> heno: anything else?
[16:14] <sbeattie> Hobbsee: ping? you commented on 201786, can you reproduce?
[16:14] <pitti> oh, powerpc only perhaps
[16:14] <heno> I guess there are some xorg dep problems blocking CDs now
[16:14] <heno> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/ubuntu/latest/livecd-20080912-i386.out
[16:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/ubuntu/latest/livecd-20080912-i386.out
[16:14] <cjwatson> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html
[16:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html
[16:15] <cjwatson> I'll follow up on X
[16:15] <cjwatson> (xorg deps that is)
[16:15] <slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to follow up on xorg uninstallability
[16:15] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up on xorg uninstallability
[16:15] <heno> ok, thanks
[16:15] <cjwatson> probably just archive munging
[16:15] <heno> that's it from QA
[16:15] <slangasek> heno: ok, thanks :)
[16:15] <sbeattie> cjwatson: what generates that?
[16:16] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop team
[16:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team
[16:16] <cjwatson> sbeattie: "britney", the tool used for Debian testing
[16:16] <slangasek> pitti: hi
[16:16] <pitti> spec status: should be reasonable for Alpha 6 and Beta
[16:16] <pitti> we have 3 implemetned, and 8 beta available
[16:16] <pitti> (do you want details?)
[16:17] <pitti> two have to be deferred, since they need major upstream work which hasn't happened: better-login-speed and intrepid-menus-review
[16:17] <slangasek> details> just the ones that are on the border
[16:17] <pitti> so on that front we are pretty clear now and know what's going into intrepid
[16:17] <slangasek> anything that's beta available that's still going to see large changes between now and alpha?
[16:17] <pitti> the beta-avail ones are by and large implemented as far as spec descriptions go and just need some bug fixes
[16:18] <pitti> no, at least not for the ones that affect ubuntu
[16:18] <pitti> but I talked to Riddell and he said that the three kubuntu specs are done
[16:18] <pitti> one thing wasn't implemented from kubuntu-intrepid-kde4-porting, but that was already deferered and put onto the "someday" roadmap
[16:18] <pitti> general status:
[16:18] <pitti> GNOME: upstream code freeze is next week, pretty stable now; compiz works again, worst gnome-session bugs have been ironed out; worst known regression/problems right now are the lack of session saving/restoring, and the still unclear status of the logout dialog. The latter is under discussion. No release critical bugs open at the moment, just a lot which we would like to fix by the release.
[16:19] <pitti> one bug that affects us majorly is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mesa/+bug/262605
[16:19] <pitti> but I think today's mesa upload fixed it
[16:19] <pitti> the other is that usplash still doesn't work on current kernels on many machines
[16:19] <pitti> I don't think anyone investigated it further in the recent weeks
[16:20] <pitti> Langpacks: Uploaded to intrepid this week. They are still very incomplete, though, allegedly due to a lot of yet unapproved new templates in Rosetta. The distro-side machinery has been set up (cron jobs and the like) and works.
[16:20] <cjwatson> I changed the translation focus to intrepid today, FWIW
[16:20] <pitti> I'm currently discussing with Arne and jtv how to bring them into shape
[16:20] <pitti> apparently rosetta requires a truckload of manual approving process
[16:21] <pitti> so I discussed some heuristics which can automate this, which have proven to work well in the ages when langpack-o-matic imported the translation tarballs directly
[16:21] <slangasek> usplash> I don't think I've seen an open targeted bug about this anymore?
[16:21] <cjwatson> I thought usplash had improved with .27
[16:21] <cjwatson> I mean the usplash/kernel situation
[16:21] <pitti> slangasek: there is a bug, I'll look for it; gimme a second
[16:21] <pitti> cjwatson: hm, not for me
[16:21] <cjwatson> certainly my laptop went from never-working to only-a-bit-busted
[16:21] <pitti> slangasek: please assing this as an action to me
[16:21] <cjwatson> it still sometimes hangs and corrupts the display in the middle of usplash thouygh
[16:22] <pitti> to investigate current situation and update the bug status accordingly
[16:22] <slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to investigate current usplash situation and update bug status accordingly
[16:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to investigate current usplash situation and update bug status accordingly
[16:22] <pitti> cjwatson: good data point, thanks
[16:23] <cjwatson> ok, is that all from desktop?
[16:24] <slangasek> should bug #262605 be milestoned, if it's still present?
[16:24] <pitti> slangasek: it should definitively get fixed by the release; maybe -beta?
[16:24] <slangasek> ack
[16:24] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to milestone bug #262605 for beta
[16:24] <pitti> (it affects a lot of isntallations and is nasty enough to cause data loss)
[16:24] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to milestone bug #262605 for beta
[16:25] <slangasek> pitti: anything else?
[16:25] <pitti> slangasek: those were my bits; by and large it's looking well on the desktop front; anythign else I should mention/prepare in future meetings?
[16:25] <cjwatson> I suggest having something pasteable for future meetings, just for speed
[16:26] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile team
[16:26] <pitti> ok
[16:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile team
[16:26] <slangasek> pitti: yeah, otherwise I assume you've covered everything that your team knows is urgent, which is important :)
[16:26] <slangasek> s/important/what's &/
[16:26] <slangasek> persia: hi, with us?
[16:27] <persia> Latest images for the MID flavour are working.  Just finishing a kernel update to more closely align with the main kernel today, and we'll need a d-i update for that to work.
[16:27] <cjwatson> (that's in progress)
[16:27] <persia> We've still some adjustments to make on the default applications presented in the menus, but most of the rest should just be polish, rather than real changes.
[16:27] <pitti> slangasek: #262605 bumped
[16:27] <persia> cjwatson: I'll let you know as soon as we have a built kernel.
[16:28] <cjwatson> let's by default not frob Launchpad during these meetings; it will speed things up
[16:28] <slangasek> persia: so, no more freeze exceptions we should be dreading? :-)
[16:28] <ogra> slangasek, most of our stuff is in universe :)
[16:28] <persia> For the Mobile flavour, we have most of the bits working, although there's still some difficulties with the launcher, which may impact suitability, and there's as-yet no integration for image building, although some possible updates for livecd-rootfs would be required.
[16:29] <persia> slangasek: I'm not expecting any freeze exceptions for anything in main.  There's some talk about switching from Thunderbird to modest, but I very much doubt it will come together in time.
[16:29] <ogra> in max ten lines of change for livecd-rootfs (just copying the ubuntu-mod flavour and some adjustments)
[16:29] <cjwatson> persia: ubiquity issues?
[16:29] <ogra> *mid
[16:30] <slangasek> Loïc writes in mail that dailies are "mostly working" after the switch to 2.6.27 and unionfs, with one aufs fix pending, and the installer is tha last bit to land
[16:30] <persia> cjwatson: The only outstanding ubiquity issue I know to affect MID is the issue with partman not working with --automatic, and that can be worked around fairly easily by starting X differently.
[16:30] <cjwatson> ok
[16:30] <ogra> sladen, aufs might affect ubuntu as well though
[16:30] <cjwatson> that's a generic bug BTW (as I mentioned to you earlier, but not to the group)
[16:31] <ogra> err s/sladen/slangasek :)
[16:31] <persia> cjwatson: Is it assigned, or does it need milestoning, or should we work around it?
[16:31] <cjwatson> give me an action to milestone it
[16:31] <cjwatson> and indeed generally fix the bugger
[16:31] <slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to milestone partman not working with --automatic
[16:31] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to milestone partman not working with --automatic
[16:32] <slangasek> persia: anything else you guys urgently need from the rest of us?
[16:32] <ogra> slangasek, bug 261873 ... but thats on my todo anyway
[16:33] <persia> slangasek: Not precisely.  We'd like certain knowledge of the kernel to be used, and appreciate the freezes so we aren't surprised, but I think we're mostly self-contained at this point.
[16:34] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to review bug #261873 and target
[16:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to review bug #261873 and target
[16:34] <slangasek> persia: understood, thanks
[16:34] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team
[16:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team
[16:34] <rtg> standing in for pgraner
[16:34] <rtg> My status is a bit sparse since I was coopted to join this meeting only an hour ago.
[16:35] <rtg> I uploaded 2.6.27-3 (based on -rc6), LRM and linux-meta went in yesterday.
[16:35] <rtg> As cjwatson pointed out, I neglected to mention the ABI bump to the installer mailing list.
[16:35] <slangasek> rtg: don't know if you've seen the agenda, btw; I have it on-line at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-09-12
[16:35] <rtg> slangasek: I've got it
[16:35] <rtg> The last I heard from Leann it looked like were no show stopper regressions with 2.6.27
[16:35] <rtg> I think bug #182489 requires jockey support.
[16:35] <rtg> thats it for prepared status from me.
[16:36] <slangasek> pitti: are you familiar with that report?  is jockey the right place to handle module blacklisting and such?
[16:36] <pitti> I haven't seen the report
[16:37] <pitti> jockey is the right place to *manually* blacklist modules if the user wants it
[16:37] <rtg> its the same 'ol story, 2 drivers with the same PCI IDs.
[16:37] <pitti> but it's not a general means to resolve situations where computers don't boot, or so
[16:37] <rtg> in this case its ath5k and madwifi, so not boot essential
[16:38] <pitti> in general we shouldn't leave the resolution of those conflicts to the user, but fix it by fixing the modalias overlaps to what we think is preferable
[16:38] <rtg> then why provide madwifi at all in that case?
[16:38] <slangasek> I'm not sure what that means; I thought any time you had more than one driver claiming a PCI ID the results were non-deterministic?
[16:39] <rtg> not true, it always follows rules.
[16:39] <slangasek> and I would think we want to provide the free driver as a fallback
[16:39] <slangasek> rtg: pseudo-non-deterministic :)
[16:39] <pitti> rtg: we can offer it as an alternative in jockey, of course; I have to read the complete bug, takes me a while
[16:39] <rtg> in this case, the free driver _is_ the fallback (or 2nd choice)
[16:40] <slangasek> pitti: can I action that and have you guys follow up off-line?
[16:40] <pitti> yep
[16:40] <rtg> slangasek: I've recently become very familiar with depmod :) its very deterministic.
[16:40] <rtg> which is not to says that its correct.
[16:40] <slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to follow up on bug #182489 from jockey side
[16:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up on bug #182489 from jockey side
[16:41] <slangasek> rtg: I notice that there are still a number of high-importance regressions against 2.6.27 listed at [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.27
[16:41] <slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.27
[16:41] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.27
[16:41] <rtg> slayep - we'll be reviewing them as 2.6.27-3 percolates into the rest of the world.
[16:41] <slangasek> rtg: are none of these considered show-stoppers, or are they all expected to be fixed?
[16:42] <rtg> slagoing by what Leann told us a couple of days ago, there are no show stoppers.
[16:42] <slangasek> WARNING: Intrepid might burn down MacBook Pro
[16:42] <slangasek> heartwarming title
[16:42] <rtg> slangasek: sounds interesting :0
[16:42] <rtg> s/:0/:)/
[16:43] <slangasek> ok; presumably if there are some that should be show-stoppers but don't look it, we'll find out about it via hardware cert
[16:43] <rtg> right
[16:43] <slangasek> ok - thanks for stepping in on short notice :)
[16:43] <rtg> np
[16:44] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
[16:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team
[16:44] <cjwatson> No milestoned bugs for us
[16:44] <cjwatson> Targeted bugs:
[16:44] <cjwatson>  247376: waiting for upstream
[16:44] <cjwatson>  267682: -> X guys
[16:44] <cjwatson>  openoffice.org bugs: I need to bug calc about these once he's no longer in the middle of a hurricane
[16:44] <cjwatson>  206191: waiting for upstream
[16:44] <cjwatson>  185311: non-Java problems still being reported, needs help! I suggested a crazy switch-at-runtime option but I'm not sure if it's viable yet
[16:44] <cjwatson>  251640: now unreproducible, may be done
[16:44] <cjwatson>  244413: bryce is looking into this
[16:44] <cjwatson>  256054: not for this milestone but asac says it's still RC
[16:44] <cjwatson> Future issues:
[16:44] <cjwatson>  pulseaudio 0.9.12 on its way, still undergoing testing
[16:44] <cjwatson>  mobile broadband wizard still due to land (for 3g-networking-intrepid), needs MIRs
[16:44] <cjwatson>  Firefox branding changes (to allow an unbranded Firefox) underway
[16:44] <cjwatson>  I think there are still a few Flash changes pending but need to check
[16:44] <cjwatson>  usb-creator still needs some work to be main-worthy, in progress
[16:44] <cjwatson>  system-cleaner likewise
[16:44] <cjwatson> Future issues, not main:
[16:44] <cjwatson>  experimental Python 3 packages expected in universe for this cycle
[16:44] <cjwatson>  OpenOffice.org 3 may see parallel-installable packages, but very questionable for the default at this point as upstream have been slipping their deadlines
[16:44] <cjwatson> tjaalton: 267682?
[16:44] <cjwatson> the bug still seems ... confused
[16:45] <tjaalton> cjwatson: yes..
[16:45] <slangasek> so one thing I noticed on 267682... in hardy I was using a .Xmodmap file to get the media keys to work for me
[16:45] <cjwatson> ...
[16:45] <slangasek> when I don't need my laptop to run a meeting, I'm going to try restarting X without that, and see if it makes a difference
[16:45] <cjwatson> that might explain a regression
[16:46] <slangasek> don't know if that fits mdz's symptoms at all, though
[16:46] <tjaalton> I think mixing media keys and acpi-related keys is what makes it confusing
[16:46] <cjwatson> so sorry there's quite a long list of future issues, in general we've been running a bit behind this cycle :(
[16:46] <mdz> slangasek: I'm sorry I haven't chimed in recently on that one; I've been flat out on an urgent customer situation
[16:46] <slangasek> mdz: yep, understood
[16:47] <mdz> slangasek: I don't have an .Xmodmap file, this is a pretty clean install
[16:47] <slangasek> ok
[16:47] <cjwatson> but I think all of the future issues are fairly well in progress
[16:47] <tjaalton> and my laptop got it's mb replaced, so I haven't had time for anything else besides the couple of updates today
[16:47] <slangasek> mdz: I can at least test without .Xmodmap, to see if that lets me converge on the behavior you're seeing
[16:48] <slangasek> tjaalton: is it your impression that this bug needs to be pushed up the stack to other parts of the system besides X?
[16:49] <tjaalton> slangasek: well, I'd need to know more about what role hal/dbus play in this
[16:50] <tjaalton> slangasek: but yes, maybe :)
[16:50] <cjwatson> anyway, that's all from my team
[16:50] <slangasek> pitti: maybe you have some time outside the meeting to talk through with tjaalton how this works?
[16:50] <slangasek> pitti: (I'd like to understand this as well)
[16:51] <pitti> slangasek: right, so do I? no clue about it so far, and too much other stuff going on last week
[16:51] <slangasek> cjwatson: is pulseaudio 0.9.12 the Last Piece?  I've noticed that the audio stack seems to have been in flux up 'til now
[16:51] <asac> (fwiw, firefox branding split is in archive)
[16:51] <slangasek> pitti: darn, I assumed you'd be the expert :)
[16:51] <pitti> slangasek: on evdev and xorg input? unfortunately  not at all, I'm afraid :(
[16:51] <cjwatson> slangasek: I *think* so
[16:51] <slangasek> pitti: on hal's involvement
[16:51] <cjwatson> assuming that .27 stays
[16:52] <tjaalton> pitti: how hal and acpi work together
[16:52] <pitti> tjaalton: I have a reasonable idea how pm-utils work, but acpi not so much; sladen and mjg59 have been the primary hackers on that so far, maybe they're online later
[16:52] <slangasek> pitti, tjaalton: maybe you could talk through this all after the meeting on #-devel, or otherwise we can schedule a time?
[16:53] <pitti> #u-devel ok for me; I can also run some tests then
[16:53] <tjaalton> slangasek: I'm available, yes
[16:53] <slangasek> [ACTION] tjaalton, pitti to discuss hal/acpi/evdev stack offline to get a handle on bug #267682
[16:53] <MootBot> ACTION received:  tjaalton, pitti to discuss hal/acpi/evdev stack offline to get a handle on bug #267682
[16:54] <slangasek> ok, thanks guys
[16:54] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team
[16:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server team
[16:54] <slangasek> dendrobates:
[16:54] <dendrobates> I would like  to get bug #262264 fixed
[16:55] <slangasek> yep, it's milestoned and I'm going to be poking at it today to confirm that the proposed resolution makes sense
[16:55] <dendrobates> and if cjwatson could look at bug #269040 and it is a trivial fix that as well.
[16:55] <cjwatson> 269040 is not entirely trivial but is not impossible
[16:56] <slangasek> should be targeted to release?
[16:56] <cjwatson> yes, but it's on ubuntu-cdimage not Ubuntu. I'll fix up the state after the meeting
[16:56] <slangasek> (and milestoned for beta?)
[16:56] <slangasek> ah, right
[16:56] <dendrobates> I think it is very confusing for users.
[16:56] <cjwatson> we can commit to getting it done
[16:56] <slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to target 269040 for intrepid
[16:56] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to target 269040 for intrepid
[16:57] <dendrobates> We also have the smartpm/landscape-client issues.
[16:57] <pitti> dendrobates: btw, please talk to doko for MIRs in my absence next week
[16:58] <pitti> but I'll still comment on the two MIR bugs
[16:58] <dendrobates> smartpm has been split and we are trying to come up with a method to handle desktop upgrades.
[16:58] <dendrobates> of landscape-client.
[16:59] <dendrobates> we are unable to test the integration in the installer until we get this fixed.
[17:00] <dendrobates> that is all.
[17:00] <slangasek> mathiaz was mentioning just before the meeting a split of the landscape-client package; does that address this entirely, or is there more needing chnaged?
[17:00] <dendrobates> it addresses the server, but does not address desktop updates.
[17:01] <cjwatson> I think "under discussion" is the best description
[17:01] <cjwatson> it will probably end up looking *something* like that ...
[17:01] <slangasek> dendrobates: btw, I see there's an action item from two meetings back about getting a blurb for the Technical Overview from mathiaz for samba 3.2; is that still pending, or was it decided not to highlight it?
[17:02] <dendrobates> still pending, he is right here. I'll talk to him about it.
[17:02] <slangasek> ok
[17:02] <slangasek> nagging accomplished :)
[17:03] <slangasek> on landscape, I gather that it's sufficiently under discussion that there's not really anything actionable I can take away from it at this moment
[17:03] <doko> pitti: I'll be away next week as well :-/
[17:03] <pitti> oh, right
[17:04] <slangasek> so, we'll continue the discussions about landscape (I'm sure!) and move on for now
[17:04] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Kubuntu
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu
[17:04] <dendrobates> since we are done with the smartpm changes, can we finish the mir today?
[17:05] <slangasek> Riddell pinged me out-of-band and asked to speak about Kubuntu status; I think we're agreed that in the future, this should be included in the Desktop team report ahead of time
[17:05] <Riddell> Kubuntu is mostly in good shape, we need to do lots of upgrade testing which has been started and I'll do lots next week
[17:05] <Riddell> the main problem is knetworkmanager doesn't work after an update of network-manager
[17:05] <Riddell> and upstream is away for the next couple of weeks
[17:05] <Riddell> so I don't know if it'll get fixed in time
[17:06] <Riddell> asac was good enough to start a compile but I don't know if he's had time to look at what API changed need done
[17:06] <slangasek> Riddell: "in time" meaning it may be unresolved for final?
[17:07] <Riddell> slangasek: possibly, upstream works on suse's timetable not ours.  I think it'll be fixed by then but I can't say about beta at all
[17:07] <slangasek> alright
[17:07] <pitti> dendrobates: just commented on the smart mir
[17:08] <slangasek> not a pleasant choice to make, but it seems fairly obvious to me that if knetworkmanager has to land after beta, we would take it rather than leaving kubuntu without it
[17:08] <Riddell> I think I need to poke upstream again and try and get an answer about timings
[17:09] <Riddell> it was working fine with the nm daemon that was tested before it went into the archive, but unfortunately it was updated without me knowing
[17:09] <slangasek> cjwatson: is there a chance asac has room on his plate to help with knetworkmanager as a high priority for beta?
[17:10] <cjwatson> we need the mobile broadband wizard and the remaining Flash changes (if any; as mentioned before, I need to check that) done first; after that, I believe so
[17:11] <slangasek> Riddell: is there a bug number for this issue?
[17:11] <Riddell> slangasek: yes, I don't have it to hand, I'll find it and milestone it
[17:12] <slangasek> [ACTION] Riddell to find bug number for knetworkmanager breakage and milestone to beta, subscribing asac
[17:12] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to find bug number for knetworkmanager breakage and milestone to beta, subscribing asac
[17:12] <slangasek> ok?
[17:12] <Riddell> yep
[17:12] <slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
[17:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
[17:12] <slangasek> ScottK-palm2: you're off the hook for Kubuntu now; how about MOTU?
[17:12] <ScottK-palm2> Hi.
[17:13] <ScottK-palm2> Things seem pretty good.
[17:14] <ScottK-palm2> Have a big stack of FFe asking to update Java packages so they can get to Universe
[17:15] <slangasek> big, but diminishing? :)
[17:15] <ScottK-palm2> It seems a pretty normal release.
[17:15] <persia> ScottK: Those should stop coming after today.
[17:15] <ScottK-palm2> Big, but need to looking at.
[17:16] <ScottK-palm2> Great.
[17:17] <ScottK-palm2> I think that's all of note.
[17:17] <slangasek> have I managed to avoid miscommunicating on behalf of MOTU this time around?  Any notes I should include in future release team announcements?
[17:18] <ScottK-palm2> I'll be on vacation for the next meeting.  I'll ask someone else to show up.
[17:18] <ScottK-palm2> Let me have a look later. nothing that smacked me in the face.
[17:18] <slangasek> ok, thanks
[17:18] <slangasek> [TOPIC] general feature update
[17:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  general feature update
[17:19] <slangasek> I'm not sure we have anything to cover under this agenda item this late in the cycle, besides the freeze exception stuff already covered individually
[17:20] <slangasek> no? moving on then
[17:20] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Known regressions
[17:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Known regressions
[17:20] <slangasek> [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/alpha5#Known Issues
[17:20] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/alpha5#Known Issues
[17:20] <slangasek> most of these are already resolved or are in progress, so don't bear dwelling on
[17:21] <cjwatson> 246412 is done
[17:21] <slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/251640 is still outstanding; cjwatson mentioned it wasn't reproducible for him
[17:21] <cjwatson> (hasn't been mentioned here)
[17:22] <pitti> 256972 should be fixed now, I'l double-check
[17:22] <slangasek> I'm going to try to reproduce 251640 myself, probably early next week
[17:22] <slangasek> pitti: it is
[17:23] <sbeattie> cjwatson: well, papered over. Nobody's tracked down what the actual compiler issue is yet
[17:23] <pitti> shutdown/reboot menu works as well now
[17:23] <cjwatson> sbeattie: right
[17:23] <slangasek> the two items on there that are the biggest question mark for me are the ones that don't have associated bug numbers
[17:23] <cjwatson> sbeattie: but, honestly, not sure it's important enough to spend the n days it would take to figure it out
[17:23] <slangasek> InputDevice entries for the mouse and keyboard> is that something we need to clean up, or is this really a release notes documentation issue?
[17:24] <slangasek> some keys might misbehave in X> I guess this is a good thing to highlight for the moment, hopefully we're getting all the feedback we need to resolve these all for final
[17:24] <cjwatson> I'm not sure why we're still shipping those entries if they're ignored
[17:24] <cjwatson> (except perhaps on upgrades)
[17:25] <tjaalton>  they are ignored
[17:25] <slangasek> cjwatson: AFAIK, they're only shipped on upgrades, not on new installs
[17:25] <tjaalton> but new installs don't get them
[17:25] <cjwatson> oh, right, in that case it's a release notes issue I think
[17:26] <cjwatson> I don't think we can clean it up automatically since we can't assume that it matches /etc/default/console-setup
[17:26] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to add to release notes that the /etc/X11/xorg.conf InputDevice sections are no longer used
[17:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to add to release notes that the /etc/X11/xorg.conf InputDevice sections are no longer used
[17:26] <cjwatson> and it was something people often customised
[17:26] <slangasek> well, if they're ignored it doesn't matter what they contain either :)
[17:26] <cjwatson> except confusion value ...
[17:27] <slangasek> and that's everything from the caveat list that's still outstanding
[17:27] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Hardware testing
[17:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware testing
[17:27] <slangasek> heno: anything more that needs to be said on this point?
[17:27] <tjaalton> we can also add something to the header, that if people insist on using the InputDevice entries, they need to add 'Option "AutoAddDevices" "false"' to ServerFlags
[17:27] <heno> slangasek: no from me
[17:28] <slangasek> tjaalton: ah, thanks; I'll probably run the release notes wording past you, if that's ok
[17:28] <slangasek> heno: ok, cheers
[17:28] <slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
[17:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
[17:28] <tjaalton> slangasek: sure thing
[17:28] <heno> tests have been down for several days from various issues but we are setting up new runs now
[17:28] <slangasek> we're not critical yet on size, but I have seen the sizes inching back up over the past week
[17:29] <slangasek> actually, sizes are down again today since yesterday, possibly related to landscape-client unseeding
[17:29] <pitti> ^ that shoould have brought ~ 2 MB
[17:31] <slangasek> so we do need to be watchful of how much space we're eating up when adding new features - i386 still has some wiggle-room on alternate, but everything else is pretty close to the edge already
[17:31] <slangasek> cjwatson: did Luke ever have a chance to test out the audio downsampling?  I hadn't heard that it landed, at least
[17:32] <slangasek> (probably too late now for intrepid if it's not already done, but would be good to know whether that might give us back some space for jaunty)
[17:33] <cjwatson> slangasek: I thought I remembered it landing a while back, but give me an action to check
[17:33] <slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to check on whether desktop sound downsampling has landed
[17:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to check on whether desktop sound downsampling has landed
[17:33] <slangasek> ok
[17:33] <slangasek> unless anybody has some quick ideas about freeing up space on CDs, then, I think we're done
[17:33] <cjwatson> 59 minutes
[17:34] <cjwatson> err. 89 minutes
[17:34] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[17:34] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:34.
[17:34] <slangasek> thanks again, all!
[17:34] <pitti> thanks everyone
[17:34] <pitti> slangasek: you'll send the actions by mail, I assume? or shall we take notes?
[17:35] <slangasek> yes, I'll send out the actions later today (so y'all in the wrong timezone will have them by Monday)
[19:35] <Picklesworth> !ping
[19:38] <Picklesworth> !time
[19:41] <solac> hi
[19:51] <thorwil> hey dilomo, you made it ;)
[19:52] <dilomo> yeah
[19:52] <dilomo> :)
[20:00] <Artir> motd
[20:00] <kwwii> evening
[20:00] <thorwil> evening
[20:00] <kwwii> are we disturbing another meeting?
[20:00] <kwwii> hope not :-)
[20:00] <_MMA_> doesnt look like it.
[20:00] <mikm> it's been quiet in here, so doesn't seem that way
[20:00] <Artir> we always have ubuntu-meeting-art
[20:01] <asac> damn ... i wanted some privacy here ... shame on you :-P
[20:01]  * asac hides
[20:01] <dilomo> good evening everyone
[20:01] <Artir> is the sabdfl going to be here for the meeting?
[20:02] <kwwii> no, he won't be attending that I know of
[20:02] <kwwii> so, let's get this going
[20:03] <kwwii> how many people are here from one of the community theme teams?
[20:03]  * beuno waves
[20:03] <beuno> I'm here just to watch  :)
[20:03] <_MMA_> If Studio is one. :)
[20:03] <dilomo> me, counts
[20:04] <Artir> me 2
[20:04] <_MMA_> And those themes are?
[20:04] <kwwii> yeah, introduce yourself!
[20:04] <kwwii> drum roll please
[20:04]  * Picklesworth taps drums
[20:05]  * Artir taps drums
[20:05] <kwwii> ok, giving up on that, let's actually start
[20:05] <_MMA_> Come on. If you do a theme, what is it so we can move along. ;)
[20:06]  * mikm is a humble observer
[20:06]  * Artir is a lurker
[20:06] <_MMA_> kwwii: Go for it.
[20:06] <kwwii> ok, item 1
[20:06] <kwwii> default theme info
[20:07] <kwwii> the theme is in need of major work, I know that
[20:07] <kwwii> human, that is
[20:07] <kwwii> I am going to be working on it next week, so while the theme teams are working on new stuff so will I :-)
[20:07] <kwwii> any wallpaper ideas are welcome, we have had quite a few but nothing that says "default to me"
[20:08] <Picklesworth> Will you be putting out a changelog or something of the sort, for Human?
[20:08] <_MMA_> kwwii: Really, think me an ass for not looking. What engine is Human using now?
[20:08] <kwwii> human is using murrine
[20:08] <_MMA_> Ok.
[20:08] <kwwii> but it might just end up using two engines
[20:08] <_MMA_> hahahahah :P
[20:08] <kwwii> after talking to cimi about it, it is apparently not the biggest issue
[20:09] <dilomo> why two?
[20:09]  * _MMA_ sends a big "I told ya so." Kens way.
[20:09] <kwwii> so, yes, I will announce changes and put everything in my ppa
[20:09] <kwwii> dilomo: for the progress bars, scrollbars and handles in human
[20:10] <dilomo> ok
[20:10] <kwwii> if anyone has any questions about the default artwork feel free to ask me
[20:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: Did you find a link to the wallpapers on the wiki?
[20:10] <Cimi> it won't affect stability, just the look
[20:10] <_MMA_> DO we have anything to look at now?
[20:10] <lucazade> kwwii: are you going to use clearlooks for these widgets?
[20:10] <kwwii> _MMA_: no, I thought there was one but I couldn't find it anymore
[20:10] <kwwii> lucazade: no murrine
[20:10]  * _MMA_ pokes around.
[20:10] <Artir> so overall the intrepid's humant theme will look like the old one but with murrina?
[20:11] <kwwii> Artir: it might, it might not...that depends on what response and direction I get from sabdfl
[20:11] <kwwii> that is what I am basically starting off with though, so to some extent yes
[20:11] <kwwii> but that might change quiuckly
[20:11] <kwwii> erm, spelling
[20:11] <Picklesworth> You were mentioning somewhere that the line on top of the titlebar wasn't working. I fully agree with that thought :) Any thoughts for what will go instead?
[20:12] <kwwii> Picklesworth: not sure at the moment, I wanted to take some time and play around with some other ideas
[20:12] <_MMA_> kwwii: there's also Bug 269470 now.
[20:12] <kwwii> Picklesworth: one thing I really liked about dust was the window buttons on the right (the gradient)
[20:12] <kwwii> neat idea
[20:12] <Cimi> kwwii, you know you can count on me for upstream modifications. of cours you should do mockups of something consinstent because human progress and scrolls will NEVER be merged in murrine
[20:12] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I asked Ted to file that
[20:12] <_MMA_> k
[20:13] <kwwii> Cimi: actually, I spent several hours today working on ideas...I'll probably send you something later tonight
[20:13] <Picklesworth> I was about to mention dust for managing to have a highlight on the top of a window that is noticeable and pretty, but done via borders
[20:13] <kwwii> right, that is a good iea to try as well
[20:13] <Cimi> ok, please use the submission form on murrine.cimitan.com
[20:13] <kwwii> Cimi: ok, will do
[20:14] <mikm> Picklesworth: I'm a fan of that as well
[20:14] <kwwii> so, the next item is the community theme package
[20:14] <kwwii> things have been coming along pretty well with this, I am putting out a new package every day or two
[20:15] <kwwii> there will be another update by tomorrow morning with the very latest stuff
[20:15] <kwwii> the newwave firefox issue was luckily solved, good work from dilomo  :-)
[20:15] <dilomo> thanks
[20:15] <kwwii> that should make things a lot easier in the future
[20:15] <Cimi> update also murrine, i did an api break, people should test
[20:15] <dilomo> let's hope Ibex will include the latest gnome
[20:16] <Artir> wouldn't be better to include a custom firefox theme?
[20:16] <Artir> to solve the issues
[20:16] <kwwii> Cimi: yes, I will do that as well
[20:16] <dilomo> so that New Wave can use light Main Menu
[20:16] <Cimi> i'm for essentiality
[20:16] <kwwii> Artir: if you really want to change things, then the best idea is to have a firefox skin
[20:16] <Ken_V> Hello
[20:16] <Cimi> not to add a theme for every app
[20:16] <kwwii> which one could install seperately
[20:16] <_MMA_> Artir: Only if it's user-installable or not part of the FF package.
[20:16] <_MMA_> Ken_V! :)
[20:17] <kwwii> the next time you started firefox it would open a pop-up offering the new skin
[20:17]  * _MMA_ is Cory K. :)
[20:17] <Ken_V> If I'm late, sorry, Just got off work (still in my uniform, bleh)
[20:17] <kwwii> but with that solution you have to install it yourself, which means you have to know it exists, open and app, get root, etc
[20:17] <thorwil> but who is Ken_V, it's such a cryptic nick!
[20:17] <Cimi> ff3 finally got a good theme support
[20:17] <Cimi> start learning how to do working themes!
[20:17] <Artir> I mean making it part of the official theme and ship it by default
[20:18] <Cimi> not do skins
[20:18] <lucazade> yes ff3 doesn't need a skin nowadays
[20:18] <dilomo> May I ask all the people here to help me with ideas about a new New Wave metacity theme
[20:18] <Artir> was just and idea to solve the issues with background and text..
[20:18] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'd like to ask how are the community themes being managed? Is it all just emails to kwwii with updates?
[20:18] <kwwii> dilomo: what ideas did you have? maybe someone here is interested?
[20:18] <kwwii> _MMA_: that and everything goes on the wiki
[20:19] <kwwii> so I get it either from the wiki or per email
[20:19] <dilomo> well I ask for ideas because a lot of people are complaining
[20:19] <dilomo> of the metacity being too simple
[20:19] <Cimi> new wave should reduce the shadow effect on the menubar and redesign notebooks IMO
[20:19] <dilomo> and not 3d
[20:19] <_MMA_> dilomo: How has that worked for you? Do you think managing things through BZR might be good?
[20:19] <kwwii> I think it would be worthwhile for all the theme authors to discuss their problem, solutions, etc with one another, share the love so to speeak
[20:20] <dilomo> I can upload there
[20:20] <dilomo> but I cannot create debs
[20:20] <dilomo> just don't know how
[20:20] <Cimi> give sources
[20:20] <_MMA_> dilomo: You din't need to to manage the code with BZR.
[20:20] <Cimi> they are enough
[20:21] <Artir> I posted a guide on the mailing list
[20:21] <Artir> to create theme packages
[20:21] <dilomo> I have uploaded mines
[20:21] <_MMA_> dilomo: I mean you can just put whatever on BZR and kwwii can pull your changes there.
[20:21] <kwwii> I take the gtk and the metacity stuff from dilomo's tar.gz and package it with the others
[20:21] <kwwii> _MMA_: he does put it in bzr
[20:22] <_MMA_> ahh..
[20:22] <kwwii> it is just not in package form in his repo
[20:22] <_MMA_> Thats what I asked. :)
[20:22] <dilomo> pribably I can update a package containing the latest changes
[20:22] <kwwii> and I have the community themes package in bzr/launchpad as well
[20:22] <dilomo> probably*
[20:22] <_MMA_> So who's here from Dust/Kith?
[20:23] <Ken_V> Moi
[20:23] <Ken_V> (Kith/Kin/Didymous)
[20:23] <kwwii> Ken_V: atm, we have Kin in the community themes package
[20:23] <kwwii> and although I would like to include Didymous I would rather wait until the metacity theme is done
[20:23] <_MMA_> But the theme itself is not in BZR?
[20:23] <Ken_V> Metacity is ready and already available. :)
[20:24] <_MMA_> (just trying to get an overview)
[20:24] <Ken_V> I even got a mod from a user of it improving the buttons, it will be updated after the meeting
[20:24] <_MMA_> \m/
[20:24] <dilomo> hey Ken your metacity is really cool btw
[20:24] <Cimi> i would change button gradients in didimous
[20:24] <dilomo> Ken_V*
[20:24] <Ken_V> @_MMA_ Danikuu
[20:25] <kwwii> Ken_V: the wireframe metacity stuff is done?
[20:25] <lucazade> Ken_V: what about reduce saturation for bg_color?
[20:25] <Ken_V> Sadly I never got anything good enough. The wireframe was always superimposed over black, so it didn't look good.
[20:25] <Ken_V> And I don't like the idea of composite metacity yet.
[20:26] <dilomo> Cimi: how do you thin I should change the menubar's dropshadow?
[20:26] <kwwii> I would go for it, it seems like the one thing that sells it to me :-)
[20:26] <Cimi> by reducing it a bit
[20:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: Before you we move to Breathe, I have thoughts on Community theme package.
[20:27] <Ken_V> @lucazade I'm waiting until it's technically ready for regular use until I start branched off the main theme. Including saturation
[20:27] <dilomo> and what about the notebook?
[20:27] <Ken_V> (Theres one more Didymous bug I want to fix, and I'll declair it "ready"
[20:27] <lucazade> ken_V: ok
[20:27] <Cimi> oh, that requires a redesign imo
[20:27] <Cimi> i don't like its shadow in
[20:27] <Ken_V> The Emerald is unfortunately using pixmaps with solid colours
[20:28] <_MMA_> Why does anyone use Emerald id Compiz works with Metacity?
[20:28] <dilomo> Cimi: but it looks nice in most of the apps
[20:28] <Cimi> IMHO
[20:28] <_MMA_> Is Emerald even being developed anymore?
[20:28] <Artir> nope
[20:28] <Ken_V> @_MMA_ you can do more with Emerald
[20:29] <Cimi> means that it is my opinion
[20:29] <Artir> compiz guys are developing a new one called Jasper
[20:29] <dilomo> ok
[20:29] <Cimi> you couldtake care or not
[20:29] <Ken_V> Ooo, I need to look up Jasper
[20:29] <Cimi> it's first of all your theme, not mine
[20:29] <_MMA_> Yeah. I wouldnt continue Emerald theme development.
[20:29] <Picklesworth> There are rumblings about redoing Metacity theming, at which point hopefully the compositor will become nicer for themers
[20:30] <Picklesworth> maybe 2.28, if we're extra lucky?
[20:30] <Artir> mm
[20:30] <dilomo> oh by the way how can I make the metacity border of the inactive windows to be solid
[20:30] <Artir> it seems that the guy who was making jasper http://dev.compiz-fusion.org/~kristian/
[20:30] <dilomo> not transparent?
[20:30] <Cimi> using gconftool-2
[20:30] <Artir> tried to get it into hardt
[20:30] <Artir> *hardy
[20:31] <dilomo> I mean without extra setup
[20:31] <Ken_V> How far into Development is Jasper?
[20:31] <dilomo> just in the metacity file
[20:31] <Artir> http://forum.compiz-fusion.org/showthread.php?t=6324
[20:31] <Artir> not very adcanced
[20:31] <Artir> but it does the job
[20:31] <Artir> it can draw the decorations
[20:31] <_MMA_> Ok. As this is getting of on tangents about theme specifics and what not, lets try to move that to the ML or normal channel later so we can continue with the agenda.
[20:32] <Artir> and it can manage svg
[20:32] <Artir> code --> git clone git://anongit.compiz-fusion.org/users/b0le/jasper
[20:32] <Ken_V> I'll continue to investigate, for now lets get back on-rail
[20:32] <_MMA_> kwwii: ?
[20:32] <Ken_V> Thank you!
[20:32] <kwwii> _MMA_: you had some thoughts on community?
[20:32] <_MMA_> -Community theme package:  *Add wallpapers?
[20:33] <Artir> :)
[20:33] <dilomo> kwwii: ok go on
[20:33] <_MMA_> kwwii: Well I was waiting 'till after the last 2 points.
[20:33] <kwwii> yeah, however has a wallpaper which they would like to suggest for the package should add them to the wiki page and then send me an email
[20:33] <_MMA_> Well, this point.
[20:33] <Cimi> oh kwwii! i have a patch for GtkStatusIcon and gnome-panel... you know which patch
[20:33] <Cimi> ;-)
[20:33] <kwwii> I'll send and email to the list about this as well
[20:33] <Picklesworth> I think it would help to have community themes and wallpapers in different packages, but have the wallpapers as a Recommended package with themes
[20:34] <Picklesworth> that way the themes can safely suggest certain wallpapers :)
[20:34] <lucazade> Cimi, i would like to know too :P
[20:34] <kwwii> the thing is this: we are not promising to put any wallpapers in unless they are really good enough
[20:34] <Picklesworth> but the themes package on its own would still be nice and tiny
[20:34] <_MMA_> kwwii: Ok. So basically you're looking for suggestions.
[20:34] <kwwii> I can put a wallpaper with a theme
[20:34] <kwwii> that is not a big deal
[20:34] <kwwii> it suggests the wallpaper when you change and that is it
[20:35] <Artir> One that looks great is the Wall-light wallpaper
[20:35] <Artir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Wall-light
[20:35] <_MMA_> Artir: There is no license for it.
[20:35] <kwwii> Artir: yeah, and the person who made it will not respond about a license
[20:35] <_MMA_> And it's origin is under contention.
[20:35] <lucazade> hard-wood?
[20:35] <Artir> there is no license?
[20:36] <kwwii> my guess is that it is something that someone else made or from some product
[20:36] <dilomo> well cant we make another one
[20:36] <_MMA_> If one wanted, one could re-create it pretty easy.
[20:36] <_MMA_> dilomo: ;)
[20:36] <Artir> it wouln't be the same :(
[20:36] <_MMA_> Oh well.
[20:36] <Picklesworth> kwwii: you had a pretty interesting design with some red dots in a spiral shape. Did that get anywhere?
[20:36] <dilomo> Yes it would be better :)
[20:37] <kwwii> Picklesworth: yes, it is on the wiki
[20:37] <Ken_V> which page?
[20:37] <kwwii> I have another idea from a photo I took while on vacation
[20:37]  * Picklesworth starts madly clicking through the wiki
[20:38]  * Ken_V does the same
[20:38] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/SimpleDarkIbex
[20:38] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'll bring up my point when you're satisfied with the wallpaper chat.
[20:39] <kwwii> well, again...anyone with wallpaper ideas please get them out there
[20:39] <kwwii> and if anyone in any theme team needs help, ask on the mailing list, irc, or email me personaly
[20:39] <Ken_V> Flogging my own horn, there's the orange wallpapers used in Didymous
[20:39] <kwwii> and if anyone has any knowledge please help the others :-)
[20:40] <dilomo> why don't we use pictures instead
[20:40] <Artir> we would need warm pictures then
[20:40] <dilomo> just a nice photograph of an Ibex
[20:40] <kwwii> dilomo: because pictures are really hard to use as a default bg
[20:41] <Picklesworth> I've been using the same timelapsed Dawn / Night / Day of Ubuntu for ages. Maybe I'm just biased / have an addictive personality, but I keep thinking it's a neat and unobtrusive way to keep things looking fresh
[20:41] <kwwii> there is nothing saying you cannot use a picture, of course, it just has ot be perfect and of the right kind of stuff
[20:41] <lucazade> it's hard to get focus with pictures
[20:42] <dilomo> will blur them at the edges ;)
[20:42] <kwwii> so anything else about wallpapers?
[20:42] <kwwii> _MMA_: go for it
[20:42] <Ken_V> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Kin%20Dust?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=kithkin_clean.png
[20:42] <Artir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Desktop_Background_Submissions
[20:43] <_MMA_> Ok. I want to make it a public note that what goes in "community-themes" package will still be at Marks discretion. He will still have to approve what goes in.
[20:44] <_MMA_> SO I have issue with the name.
[20:44] <dilomo> Artir: Hibiscus Flower is cool
[20:44] <_MMA_> (kinda)
[20:44] <_MMA_> As the themes are community but what's included is not their decision.
[20:44] <dilomo> _MMA_: go on
[20:44]  * _MMA_ types slow. :P
[20:45]  * Ken_V feels _MMA_'s pain
[20:45] <gp[]> ih everyone
[20:45] <_MMA_> In the end, it's whatever. I just want to avoid future misunderstandings.
[20:46] <_MMA_> That just like default, Mark has to approve.
[20:46] <_MMA_> I've said my peace. :)
[20:46] <Ken_V> We could always use the Hardy wallpaper sans heron, although it's probably like wearing the same shirt 5 days in a row.
[20:47] <kwwii> _MMA_: I can undersand your point
[20:47] <_MMA_> Aston had some WIP Ibex stuff didn't he?
[20:47] <dilomo> what about this one:
[20:47] <dilomo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Desktop_Background_Submissions?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ibex_horns_16.jpg
[20:47] <kwwii> _MMA_: and I agree with you to some extent
[20:47] <kwwii> hey guys, let's stop discussing the wallpaper like we are going to pic one now, ok?
[20:48] <kwwii> s/pic/pick
[20:48] <_MMA_> It's just a FYI to the people here. Just for the future.
[20:48] <kwwii> let's get back to the usse at hand
[20:48] <_MMA_> Anyone else have thoughts on what I said?
[20:48] <kwwii> and _MMA_ is right that sabdfl wants Canonical to have a say in which community themes are included on the CD
[20:48] <Ken_V> dilomo: I think that desktop feels a bit unpolished...
[20:49] <thorwil> so it should be called suppressed community themes or censored community themes
[20:49] <kwwii> he has had the package installed on his computer for a while, so hearing nothing is a good sign :-)
[20:49] <kwwii> maybe I picked a bad name for it
[20:49] <dilomo> Ken_V: it will polish over time
[20:49] <Ken_V> True enough
[20:49] <kwwii> I just picked a name, nothing was to be meant by it
[20:50] <kwwii> but now it means a lot
[20:50] <_MMA_> kwwii: As it's not yet in the archive, maybe there's still time to change?
[20:50] <kwwii> I'd like to know how many people have a problem with the way things are now
[20:50] <_MMA_> The name or the restriction on the package?
[20:51] <gp[]> I arrived late, but have you considered these? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Kith_Intrepid#Wallpapers
[20:52] <Picklesworth> Maybe community themes could do with a less technical descriptive name (eg: for GNOME App Install) like "diverse themes"?
[20:52] <kwwii> _MMA_: either or
[20:52] <kwwii> Picklesworth: yeah, extra-themes or such
[20:53] <kwwii> to be honest, the name of the package doesn't matter
[20:53] <kwwii> nobody sees that in the end anyway
[20:53] <_MMA_> kwwii: I disagree.
[20:53] <Artir> i agree
[20:53] <_MMA_> Most users won't care. People here will.
[20:53] <Artir> most people either leave the default theme or look for a better one on gnomelooks
[20:54] <kwwii> _MMA_: well, yeah, ok
[20:54] <dilomo> I just couldn't understand something
[20:54] <Ken_V> How could we make the community themes more accessible then?
[20:54] <_MMA_> Or rather, people who create the "community themes" *might* care.
[20:54] <dilomo> are the community themes going to be installed but not default or
[20:54] <kwwii> Ken_V: with a team PPA
[20:54] <Picklesworth> The package itself in apt should definitely have the most technical name with least chance of overlap, but where mentioned for users (if it is), it should be shown in a way that describes the end product instead of the details of its development
[20:54] <kwwii> Ken_V: and with people putting their packages in it when there is an update
[20:54] <dilomo> they are not going to be installed but available in Synaptic
[20:54] <kwwii> Picklesworth: agreed
[20:55] <kwwii> I will rename the package
[20:55] <Ken_V> Er, I mean on the user-side, such as button on the theme panel labelled "get more themes" (or along those lines)
[20:55] <Ken_V> ahh
[20:55] <Ken_V> n/m
[20:55] <Ken_V> I'm thinking of something else
[20:55] <_MMA_> Ok. I guess now is as good a time to may my intention of a community-artwork package known.
[20:56] <kwwii> _MMA_: while we are at it, we might as well discuss leadership as well
[20:56] <_MMA_> It will be completely an add-on package where the community decides what goes in it. Separate from anyone at Canonical or otherwise.
[20:56] <kwwii> many people think that I am paid from canonical to lead the artwork community but that is not really true
[20:56] <Ken_V> I for one bow to our new internet overlords. Oh, other leadership.
[20:56] <gp[]> Ken_V: good idea
[20:56] <_MMA_> kwwii: Sure. In a sec. :)
[20:57] <kwwii> I work with the community, true and I am the voice of canonical to and from the community
[20:57] <_MMA_> But in the end, kwwii's only real role should be a in-between.
[20:57] <kwwii> but I do not necessarily have to lead the community in a formal sense
[20:57] <Artir> and they don't like any theme made by the community?
[20:58] <_MMA_> A foot in both worlds for communication.
[20:58] <kwwii> there are parts of what I do which do lead the community but not as a president or leader as such
[20:58] <Ken_V> Not even leadership is needed, so much as structure
[20:58] <kwwii> Ken_V: right, that is a big part of it
[20:58] <kwwii> it is almost like a babysitter I am sorry to say :-)
[20:58] <_MMA_> Ken_V: I believe some leadership is needed. At least for awhile to get things moving.
[20:59] <kwwii> so having a head-cat-herder is a good idea
[20:59] <Artir> I've heard canonical is hiring more designers
[20:59] <Ken_V> It's a bit redundant though, herding of the cats?
[21:00] <_MMA_> Someone with the technical resources to get things done needs to be here for a bit. Now I'd like to do it, but I have to look at some things 1st.
[21:00] <Ken_V> Maybe while an infrastructure is built, but once you have an overall team leader you're trying to organize sparse voulenteers.
[21:00] <kwwii> yes, we are hiring more artists and in fact we just hired a person as team leader for our design and user experience team
[21:00] <_MMA_> Mostly stepping down as the lead of Studio and what is needed around here.
[21:01] <_MMA_> Ken_V: That's about the idea.
[21:01] <dilomo> kwwii: can you share more info
[21:01] <Artir> who is :)?
[21:01] <kwwii> I will discuss the leadership issue with sabdfl and others and respond on the elist
[21:01] <_MMA_> dilomo: About? He's nobody in the end to us.
[21:02] <_MMA_> Unless it's just general curiosity.
[21:02] <dilomo> _MMA_: about the user experience team and their future role
[21:02] <Artir> so there are separate design and art teams?
[21:02] <_MMA_> YEs.
[21:03] <_MMA_> Artir: The art team as it is, does nothing in Ubuntu.
[21:03] <Ken_V> When it comes to the Canonical-side team, is there anywhere we can actually see what they are doing?
[21:03] <_MMA_> I mean, we're not responsible for the look of Ubuntu.
[21:04] <_MMA_> Ken_V: Development releases?
[21:04] <kwwii> Ken_V: I show quite a bit of what I am doing, until now I was the only person really doing anything
[21:04] <_MMA_> kwwii: +1
[21:04] <_MMA_> So far what kwwii has done has been quite public.
[21:04] <Artir> yep
[21:04] <kwwii> the team is being built, which is different from the team exists :-)
[21:05] <Artir> but who is the new design team member?
[21:05] <dilomo> kwwii: it's a start after all
[21:05] <Ken_V> Understood, I just meant for the new designer(s)
[21:06] <_MMA_> This is kinda getting off track.
[21:06] <kwwii> yes, definitely
[21:06] <_MMA_> I wanna move this along.
[21:06] <kwwii> let's get to the last point and then be done
[21:06] <Artir> ok
[21:06] <_MMA_> So. To recapp.
[21:06] <_MMA_> 1 sec.
[21:06] <_MMA_> Anybody have issue with kwwii's package?
[21:06] <_MMA_> Name/restrictions/whatever?
[21:07] <dilomo> nope
[21:07] <mikm> No
[21:07] <_MMA_> Ok. I will still be moving forward with a package that can include things *we* decide.
[21:08] <_MMA_> User added. Like kwwii's but expanded.
[21:08] <_MMA_> I'm also guessing nobody is gonna challange me for any kinda leadership role and I can just do it. :)
[21:08] <mikm> Will it be a superset of kwwii's package and function as a drop-in replacement, or will it be an addon to the default community-themes?
[21:09] <_MMA_> mikm: One will get it from Synaptic.
[21:09] <thorwil> _MMA_: only becasue i'm in a bad mood these days :)
[21:09] <_MMA_> :P
[21:09] <_MMA_> thorwil: I still need your help. ;)
[21:09] <_MMA_> Ok. Moving on.
[21:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: You satisfied?
[21:10] <kwwii> _MMA_: yepp, sounds good to me
[21:10] <kwwii> so the last item is the breathe icons
[21:10] <_MMA_> No. I added another.
[21:10] <_MMA_> You missed that email I guess. :)
[21:10] <kwwii> hehe, might have
[21:11] <kwwii> take the mic
[21:11] <_MMA_> Questioning what we do and our definition.
[21:11] <Artir> and the "what mark wants to see" ?
[21:11] <_MMA_> So, What do we do? What is the definition of this team?
[21:12] <_MMA_> I'm looking fo opinions here. There has been some chat on the ML already ut lets chat.
[21:12] <_MMA_> *but
[21:12] <kwwii> I think that your email pretty much sums it up
[21:12] <kwwii> I mean, it is not like nothing from the community will make it into the default
[21:12]  * thorwil has to run
[21:12] <kwwii> and it does not mean that people cannot propose things
[21:13] <Picklesworth> Experimenting with concepts for Ubuntu's visual design, helping in the creation of themes that fit the Ubuntu desktop well :)
[21:13] <kwwii> but there has to be a certain understanding behind that which is often lacking
[21:13] <kwwii> the real purpose of the team is to create artwork in and around ubuntu
[21:13] <kwwii> that does not mean the team is the ubuntu default artwork team and it was never said to be
[21:13] <_MMA_> Which has been the popular misconception.
[21:14] <kwwii> we even have it on the faq and still get questions
[21:14] <Ken_V> Essentially a team that creates art for -potential- inclusion and concepting
[21:14] <kwwii> Ken_V: right
[21:15] <_MMA_> I think it shoul dbe heavily stressed to any new members we see pop up that we *do not* create the default art.
[21:15] <_MMA_> It *can* come from us.
[21:15] <Ken_V> Ubuntu community Art-Team: "We draw pretty pictures"
[21:15] <Ken_V> :P
[21:15] <_MMA_> But that's up to Canonical's discretion.
[21:15] <kwwii> yes, we should make that clear
[21:15] <_MMA_> Ken_V: ;)
[21:15] <dilomo> Why not include this in the email all
[21:16] <kwwii> and probably have another mailing list with only people who contribute to the dist to avoid the discussion on this email list
[21:16] <dilomo> new users get when subscribed
[21:16] <Ken_V> Is there a way to have users auto-emailed whent hey subscribe to the mailing list?
[21:16] <dilomo> Ken_V: ;)
[21:16] <_MMA_> Ok. Ill distill that since there's nobody else chiming in.
[21:16] <Ken_V> With a message containing a link and other information about specifically what we do...
[21:17] <Cimi> pasta or vegetables for dinner?
[21:17] <kwwii> _MMA_: that is a good idea, to include it in the confirmation email
[21:17] <_MMA_> Well new users get a welcome email.
[21:17] <_MMA_> YEah. But is it a mailman default?
[21:17] <_MMA_> Can it be changed for individual lists?
[21:17] <kwwii> oh, that is another thing...the leader of the community can also have admin rights to the mailing list so that they can also erase spam twice a week
[21:17] <_MMA_> gah.
[21:18] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, it can be changed
[21:18] <_MMA_> I get enough with Studio. :)
[21:18] <_MMA_> kwwii: Cool. Noted.
[21:18] <kwwii> I don't know how to change it exactly but I know it can be done
[21:18] <_MMA_> elmo or Ng should be able to help.
[21:18] <kwwii> so let's get to the icons and get this over with
[21:18] <_MMA_> Sure.
[21:18] <Ken_V> kwwii +1
[21:19] <_MMA_> Breathe Icon Set
[21:19] <_MMA_> I think most have seen the emails.
[21:19] <_MMA_> Anyone here have no clue?
[21:20] <_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet https://launchpad.net/breathe-icon-set
[21:20] <_MMA_> I haven't made a formal announcement yet.
[21:20] <_MMA_> It's still really early and I want to have more of a base set up.
[21:20] <Ken_V> I need to update that picture with the sharper folders...
[21:21] <_MMA_> Ken_V: On the 1st page, I could be using an old image.
[21:21] <Ken_V> No matter for now. One thing I really want to discuss is the colour pallet
[21:21] <Ken_V> Specifically, I want to eliminate the use of black in the set, but want thoughts on this idea first
[21:22] <_MMA_> Lemmie just explain how it works now.
[21:22]  * Ken_V listens intently
[21:22]  * Ken_V listens with eyes, apparently. Has some sort of ear diease
[21:22] <_MMA_> We'll have 1 file to create a icon at various sizes.
[21:23] <Ken_V> The template file
[21:23] <_MMA_> One Canvas Workflow
[21:23] <_MMA_> yep
[21:23] <Ken_V> Already in use. :)
[21:23] <_MMA_> Those will get uploaded to BZR and linked to via Launchpad.
[21:24] <_MMA_> So the images yo usee here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
[21:24] <_MMA_> Get updated when we update BZR.
[21:24] <_MMA_> So one can see the progression at a glance.
[21:24] <_MMA_> Or,
[21:25] <_MMA_> A new member can say "I'd like to do this icon".
[21:25] <_MMA_> Grab the SVG and submit via the ML for review.
[21:26] <Ken_V> Sounds like a well laid-out plan.
[21:26] <_MMA_> The review will be done by trusted members of our little community.
[21:26] <Ken_V> One thing I would like to is a spec-sheet such as tango has so any reviewers know what to look for.
[21:26] <dilomo> Can the wiki use some sort of dynamic background changing
[21:26] <dilomo> so that the artists can compare the icons against different colors?
[21:27] <_MMA_> Ken_V: Explain.
[21:27] <_MMA_> dilomo: Not really. But there's that app that popped up on the wiki we could utilize.
[21:27] <Ken_V> If we have a set of guidelines, then we all know what might be wrong or break the icon sets internal consistancy. Have some sort of review list so those errors can be easily spotted
[21:28] <Ken_V> I can also program websites expediently.
[21:28]  * Ken_V just slides that in there tastelessly
[21:28] <_MMA_> Ken_V: Well as far as Tango goes, that just color/style guidelines.
[21:28] <_MMA_> Naming is all I'm worried about.
[21:29] <Ken_V> Ah, my concern is heavily on standards...
[21:29] <_MMA_> Ken_V: As far as palette, I just don't know. Beyond some mix of Human/Oxygen atm.
[21:30] <_MMA_> That could be a long chat. Best for the ML.
[21:30] <Ken_V> Agreed.
[21:30] <Ken_V> And I can't type that fast.
[21:30] <_MMA_> Now as far as perspective, thorwil and I though tto just go with Oxygen for now, and fix where needed.
[21:31] <_MMA_> kwwii has said there are perspective issues. So we can address them as we get to those icons.
[21:31] <Ken_V> Examples?
[21:31] <Artir> who did oxygen?
[21:31] <_MMA_> But for the most part there's consistency.
[21:31] <_MMA_> Ken_V: I know not. Maybe kwwii can.
[21:31] <Ken_V> Either head-on or slight tilt facing down
[21:32] <_MMA_> Artir: A mix of people. kwwii being one.
[21:32] <Ken_V> correct?
[21:32] <kwwii> Artir: I started the project, there are 4 main artists
[21:32] <Artir> get those people on the team asap :)
[21:33] <kwwii> hehe, I hired some of them years ago so that we could make oxygen
[21:33] <kwwii> it was, to at least some extent a paid project
[21:34] <Artir>  canonical have money and they want a good icon theme
[21:34] <_MMA_> Ken_V: Part of what I will be doing in the coming weeks/months is putting Oxygen in BZR/wiki and we just start working on replacing. I could use help on this. Should be simple grunt work.
[21:34] <Artir> so its possible
[21:34] <Ken_V> I should have held out on Breathe then asked for a cheque. :P
[21:34] <_MMA_> Artir: This effort is independent of Canonical.
[21:34] <Ken_V> Glad to do it. I would like a hand in any guidelines though, if possible
[21:34] <_MMA_> Ken_V: Sure.
[21:35] <kwwii> Ken_V: I am going to take a whack at editing the folder some to see what I can come up with
[21:35] <Ken_V> Do you have the SVG?
[21:35] <_MMA_> Ken_V: Its on the wiki. :P
[21:35] <Ken_V> I need to clue in. :P
[21:36] <_MMA_> Ken_V: But, you did say you were also gonna refine. So, we need to sit down and get you versed in BZR.
[21:37] <Ken_V> I can just drunkenly stumble though it, I figure things like that out easily enough.
[21:37] <_MMA_> Ok so I've covered 4 points about Breathe.
[21:37] <_MMA_> next
[21:37] <_MMA_> "What Mark would *like* to see."
[21:37] <kwwii> that is all, I think
[21:37] <kwwii> ahhhh
[21:37] <kwwii> right
[21:37] <_MMA_> Oh. I did get 5 points.
[21:37] <kwwii> well, there are certain parts of the human set that mark likes a lot
[21:37] <Ken_V> He survived interrogation?
[21:38]  * Ken_V breaks out interrogation room desk lamp
[21:38] <kwwii> so, I will try to express them, perhaps also by editing the folder a bit to explain what I mean
[21:38] <_MMA_> Now this part is dependant on *if* we want to attempt to be default.
[21:38] <_MMA_> *If* we wanna work with him.
[21:38] <Ken_V> Sounds iffy.
[21:39] <_MMA_> I have no issue as long as what he wants doesn't mess with the style we decide on.
[21:39] <kwwii> exactly, I am only offering information
[21:39] <kwwii> nothing else
[21:39] <_MMA_> Like high-gloss on 1 icon where the rest of the set is flat. Or something.
[21:40] <Picklesworth> Nah, Mark has astoundingly good taste :)
[21:40] <_MMA_> hahahah. Funny.
[21:40] <Ken_V> Mark: "I'm thinking... Lime green with red"
[21:40] <_MMA_> Ok. So since there's nothing more constructive. I think we're done.
[21:40] <Picklesworth> (Well, he's the best dressed one at a lot of those conferences)
[21:40] <Picklesworth> Oooh, here's something: I noticed some new sounds coming in from kwii's PPA! I really like the login and logout sounds. We lose a bit of the unusual edge to it, but on the other hand the sound effects are short and unobnoxious. And clean :)
[21:40] <_MMA_> Kinda a sloppy overview of what's going on.
[21:41] <Picklesworth> Check out /usr/share/sounds
[21:41] <Ken_V> Will Marks stylings be on the mailing list, or will they be elsewhere?
[21:41] <dilomo> but these sound are short and the login time is loooong
[21:41] <_MMA_> By proxy.
[21:42] <Picklesworth> We dont' want login to be like that prank video with the powerbook!
[21:42] <Ken_V> kk
[21:42] <dilomo> the we should make it fast
[21:42] <dilomo> not wait 15+ sec
[21:42] <_MMA_> I'll try to get this info on the ML ASAP. I need to put more things in place 1st. Should be soon.
[21:42] <kwwii> there is an ubuntu-sounds package in my ppa with new sounds
[21:43] <Picklesworth> There's some stuff going on with sound themes in GNOME, too, involving the Bango project on Freedesktop. It would be nice to have Ubuntu's sound theme completely on top of that! The idea there is that sound themes work more like icon themes, with things like dialog-caution and trash-empty being the actual sound files.
[21:43] <kwwii> Picklesworth: indeed, that would be nice
[21:43] <Picklesworth> Since Bango kicked off with a generous fellow's post on Ubuntu Forums, especially
[21:43] <_MMA_> Ken_V: I know you have limited availability but can you strive to be responsive to emails on a daily basis? I think the icon effort will require it. A least for a bit.
[21:44] <Ken_V> I can. Mostly availablity is limited to time of day.
[21:44] <_MMA_> Sure.
[21:44] <Ken_V> If you know military-style scheduling, then you have a rough idea of when I can do things.
[21:44] <_MMA_> Maybe I can bring Troy back around. ;)
[21:45] <Artir> the new sounds are like baby music XD
[21:45] <_MMA_> Ok. I'm done. kwwii?
[21:45] <Artir> altought they're better than the old sounds
[21:45] <dilomo> Artir: definitely
[21:46] <_MMA_> Ok.