[00:21] <niemeyer> Today was more difficult than usual.. it's funny how things aggregate around a similar time frame every once in a while
[03:30] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-service-hierarchy r265 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:30] <_mup_> Merged upstream expose-watch-exposed-flag
[13:31] <kim0> I'm pretty sure ensemble-log and set -eux are not logging for me (by default?) in the install hook
[13:40] <TREllis> 20
[13:40] <TREllis> bah
[13:53] <kim0> a ha .. I think I stumbled over a serious bug
[13:53] <kim0> Here are the steps to reproduce:
[13:53] <kim0> - deploy a formula with an error in its install hook
[13:54] <kim0> - state becomes, install_error
[13:54] <kim0> - launch debug-hooks
[13:54] <kim0> - launch resolved -r <SU>
[13:54] <kim0> - Broken hook is debugged under tmux
[13:55] <kim0> - Now "status" mentions state is "installed" not "started"!
[13:55] <kim0> Now I get the following traceback http://paste.ubuntu.com/620867/
[13:56] <kim0> and issuing add-relation .. doesn't really help move it from state installed
[13:56] <kim0> niemeyer: hazmat ^
[13:57] <kim0> It seems the state-machine is stuck
[14:01] <niemeyer> kim0: Yo
[14:01] <kim0> hey :)
[14:02] <niemeyer> kim0: Intresting
[14:02] <kim0> indeed
[14:02] <kim0> any manual way to move it into started ?
[14:02] <kim0> so I can continue writing the tutorial :)
[14:02] <niemeyer> kim0: Yeah, it looks like a real bug indeed
[14:02] <kim0> cool .. guess I'll just recreate a fresh env
[14:03] <kim0> One note
[14:03] <niemeyer> kim0: Let's wait for hazmat.. he's coded that recently, and will likely be able to spot/fix what's up in no time
[14:03] <kim0> awesome
[14:03] <kim0> I also think the current functionality of fixing a broken hook is seriously lacking
[14:04] <kim0> - fix remotely .. retry
[14:04] <kim0> - copy to local machine
[14:04] <kim0> - upgrade
[14:05] <kim0> I wish debug-hooks would just be connected to local hooks dir some how
[14:06] <niemeyer> kim0: Hmm.. that's a bit strange.. why?
[14:06] <niemeyer> kim0: Oh, for copying?
[14:06] <niemeyer> kim0: Remote => local?
[14:06] <kim0> and then upgrading
[14:06] <niemeyer> Ok, interesting
[15:48] <niemeyer> ahasenack, sidnei, zaid_h, wrtp: Hi all!
[15:49] <sidnei> heya niemeyer
[15:49] <zaid_h> o/
[15:52] <wrtp> hi niemeyer
[15:53] <rockstar> Is ensemble going to be put up on pypi?
[16:00] <niemeyer> rockstar: Hmm
[16:01] <niemeyer> rockstar: I hadn't thought of that
[16:01] <niemeyer> rockstar: I guess it's doable, but I'm not sure about what's the real benefit when compared to having the PPA up
[16:01] <niemeyer> rockstar: What's your thinking?
[16:02] <rockstar> niemeyer, well, you want people other than Ubuntu folk using Ensemble, right?
[16:03] <rockstar> It's kind of odd to say "you can use whatever language you want to write Ensemble formulas as long as you use our OS"  :)
[16:03] <niemeyer> rockstar: That sounds good for sure, but our current focus is on Ubuntu obviously
[16:03] <rockstar> niemeyer, yeah, for deployment, it's a no-brainer.
[16:03] <niemeyer> rockstar: Ah, I see what you mean
[16:03] <rockstar> But for the ensemble controller, it'd be nice to use what you want.
[16:03] <niemeyer> rockstar: Yeah, that sounds nice indeed
[16:04] <rockstar> The reason I ask is that I have people at the local LUG asking if I could give a demo at next month's meeting, so I wanted to know about usage.
[16:04] <niemeyer> rockstar: Cool
[16:04] <rockstar> niemeyer, I'd be happy to submit patches for any bugs I find on other OSes.
[16:04] <niemeyer> rockstar: It shouldn't be hard, actually
[16:05] <niemeyer> rockstar: Ensemble is really just a Python library at this point, with a tiny executable wrapper
[16:05] <rockstar> niemeyer, it seems relatively ready for pypi, that's why I asked.
[16:05] <niemeyer> rockstar: The dependencies are likely the boring part, though
[16:05] <rockstar> It didn't seem like a technical barrier, so I wondered if there were principle issues.
[16:05] <niemeyer> rockstar: I mean, I'm not sure python-zookeeper exists there, for instance
[16:05] <rockstar> niemeyer, there's txzookeeper
[16:05] <rockstar> I don't know if that's the same thing.
[16:05] <niemeyer> rockstar: Yeah, but that's an easier one
[16:06] <niemeyer> rockstar: That's a Python-only wrapper for Twisted
[16:06] <niemeyer> rockstar: It still needs python-zookeeper on the backend
[16:06] <rockstar> Ah.
[16:06] <rockstar> I know txAWS is.
[16:08] <niemeyer> rockstar: That's helpful already, and it's "the real thing"
[16:23] <jimbaker`> rockstar, fwiw, i used to run the entire test suite on mac os - there was only one minor bug, around a small diff in how temp files are named
[16:24] <jimbaker`> i didn't really look into it, but i  believe it was purely a problem in the test
[16:27] <kim0> hazmat: Hi .. are you there
[16:28]  * niemeyer heads to lunch
[16:28] <kim0> hazmat: just pinging you to check the bug I had reported earlier today, ping me if you have any questions
[16:43] <hazmat> kim0, yeah
[16:43]  * hazmat pokes
[16:43] <kim0> cool
[17:05] <_mup_> ensemble/resolved-install-should-start r240 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:05] <_mup_> on retry install (with or without hooks) use a success transition id to automatically transition to started.
[17:07] <hazmat> kim0, is there a bug reported for the issue you mentioned earlier?
[17:09] <_mup_> Bug #794129 was filed: install hook error, does not transition to start after resolved <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/794129 >
[17:10] <hazmat> there is now ;-)
[17:12] <kim0> hazmat: cool :) yeah I hadnt opened one
[17:12] <hazmat> kim0, cool, the fix is in the review queue now
[17:12] <kim0> hazmat: oh that fast! awesome :)
[17:13] <hazmat> kim0, TDD ftw
[17:14] <kim0> niemeyer: Just linked a rewrite of the formula writer's tutorial to bug 788255
[17:14] <_mup_> Bug #788255: Ensemble needs a tutorial for writing a formula <Ensemble:In Progress by kim0> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/788255 >
[17:14] <kim0> would be great if you could review it soonish, since I think I'll need to refer to it soon in a blog post
[17:14] <kim0> thanks a lot
[17:26]  * hazmat admires steve job's reality distortion field
[17:27] <hazmat> the truth is in the cloud.. the cloud, it just works..
[17:32]  * niemeyer waves
[17:32] <niemeyer> hazmat: Yeah :-)
[17:33] <niemeyer> Cloud just got 30% more hyped
[17:33] <SpamapS> So.. plugins.. agents..
[17:34] <hazmat> SpamapS, plugins.. cli or agent?
[17:34] <SpamapS> I've been thinking about how mcollective works.
[17:34] <SpamapS> And how easy that would be to add to ensemble.
[17:34] <hazmat> SpamapS, agent side plugins then
[17:34] <SpamapS> yes
[17:35] <SpamapS> ensemble agent-plugin --service=wki-db --plugin=mysql-cmd "FLUSH LOGS"
[17:36] <hazmat> SpamapS, that would be nice, but we'd have to some dynamic dispatch to allow ready overriding of behavior for fully pluggable.. else we can manage them as some sort of collection of objects with lifecycle, which work if their mostly independent from existing functionality and using a watch based protocol
[17:36] <SpamapS> I mean, we have an agent, with an event driven comm channel to it. We should be able to use it to run stuff. :)
[17:37] <SpamapS> hazmat: again, eep op glorp glok.. I am sorry that I don't understand the internals of ensemble better by now. How you do it is very interesting to me, but even more is, how feasible is it?
[17:38] <hazmat> SpamapS, its quite feasible.. we have most of the building blocks available, we could isolate the plugins to separate processes if we want.
[17:38] <SpamapS> We could just say nah we're not going to do that, but then we need to help people setup mcollective or parallel-ssh or something to do these things.
[17:39] <niemeyer> SpamapS: We have to look at a few different use cases to see what would be the right thing to do
[17:39] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Flushing logs, for instance, sounds like something we'd want in the agent itself default
[17:39] <niemeyer> s/default/by default/
[17:39] <hazmat> niemeyer, then it would need to be formula driven.. the agent is agnostic
[17:40] <niemeyer> hazmat: Log management sounds like a pretty general problem
[17:40] <hazmat> oh.. i guess a generic log flush is feasible
[17:40] <SpamapS> niemeyer: flushing the mysql logs?
[17:41] <hazmat> niemeyer, indeed, definitely also puts us pretty close into policy land in the agents
[17:41] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Flushing the X logs
[17:41] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Where X is whatever is running in the machine
[17:41] <hazmat> where do the logs go, what log values do we relay. do we have an alert/event engine feeding on the logs.. etc
[17:41] <SpamapS> We can't possibly know everything that every formula will want to expose to users on an arbitrary basis. In cassandra, there's DB compaction, log flushing, offlining for upgrades..
[17:42] <SpamapS> I do like the idea of being able to provide arbitrary hooks in formulas
[17:42] <niemeyer> SpamapS: DB compaction is formula business.. log flushing is a generic problem we can tackle on the agent.. offlining for upgrade is formula business to
[17:42] <niemeyer> s/to/too
[17:42] <SpamapS> niemeyer: DB compaction happens when the admin wants to do it for Cassandra...
[17:43] <SpamapS> how would formulas do that now?
[17:43] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Sounds like a setting
[17:43] <hazmat> SpamapS, cron job from setting
[17:43] <SpamapS> no no no no cron!
[17:43] <niemeyer> SpamapS: ensemble set run-compaction=true
[17:43] <hazmat> :-)
[17:43] <SpamapS> niemeyer: THAT I like
[17:43] <hazmat> yeah.. cassandra has lots of knobs that it wants to expose the admin, that need to be turned in the right order
[17:44] <SpamapS> hazmat: while standing on the right foot
[17:44] <hazmat> niemeyer, with the flag being cleared post  compaction?
[17:44] <SpamapS> Cassandra and Jenkins are both going to need a lot of the same knobs for the JVM .. I've been wondering about shared code.
[17:45] <niemeyer> hazmat: Yeah, possibly
[17:45] <SpamapS> Ultimately I'd want feedback from that setting.
[17:45] <SpamapS> not necessarily from the 'set' command, but somehow I need to be able to know that it ran and failed/succeeded
[17:45] <hazmat> SpamapS, i think we need some notion of hook inheritance.. it more tightly couples the formula namespace and inter formula deps.. but i dislike pushing down every hook into all formulas
[17:45] <niemeyer> hazmat: It sounds like we can introduce a specific type of setting for that kind of flag
[17:45] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Agreed
[17:45] <niemeyer> SpamapS: What kind of feedback?
[17:46] <hazmat> niemeyer, perhaps.. alternatively we have some sort of service agent (not unit) that can operate on a wholistic service view
[17:46] <niemeyer> hazmat:  Agreed, except s/sinheritance/composition/
[17:46] <hazmat> ie. do round robin upgrades, rolling upgrades, clear the compact flag after its done on all units
[17:46] <niemeyer> hazmat: Hooks are scripts, it's trivial to bundle a package with things for well known activities
[17:46] <hazmat> niemeyer, indeed, it is composition
[17:47] <SpamapS> Yeah I was thinking that a simple ensemble-formula-helpers package would do nicely
[17:47] <SpamapS> think debhelper. :)
[17:47] <niemeyer> hazmat: Rather than clearing the flag, it feels like it should be a timestamp based setting
[17:48] <hazmat> its convience and reuse, one hook copy to edit, vs. 30 if your upgrading/changing a  behavior
[17:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: Something resembling this: ensemble set ... compact=now
[17:48] <hazmat> niemeyer, sounds good re set
[17:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: So each unit can observe the setting, and tell if it should compact or not
[17:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: No races, etc
[17:49] <niemeyer> no need to reset too
[17:49] <SpamapS> like just have the formula's setting hook call /usr/share/ensemble/helpers/hooks/jvm_settings ..
[17:50] <hazmat> niemeyer, if we don't reset to reflect current state, then we have a temporal disconnect for a unit coming back online or new unit.. that wouldn't nesc. need compaction
[17:50] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Yeah!  Man, it's neat that this would just work..
[17:50] <niemeyer> SpamapS: I mean, in the sense that the helper will have the environment
[17:50] <SpamapS> yep
[17:50] <niemeyer> hazmat: sorry, I actually meant compact=`date`
[17:51] <SpamapS> keeping it simple and clear means more people will make use of them
[17:51] <niemeyer> hazmat: Not with that syntax, of course, but that's the idea
[17:51] <hazmat> niemeyer, cool, but even then you need coordination by something external to the units
[17:51] <niemeyer> hazmat: Hm?
[17:51] <hazmat> you don't want to compact on your cassandra cluster in parallel
[17:51] <hazmat> you do it piecemeal because your putting an additional load on your data store
[17:51] <niemeyer> hazmat: That's up to the formula to coordinate internally.. that's the kind of thing we have peer relations for
[17:51] <hazmat> they can either coordinate or be coordinate by an external actor
[17:52] <SpamapS> as long as hooks can change the settings they've been given, that should be fine
[17:52] <hazmat> niemeyer, true
[17:52] <niemeyer> hazmat: We can help, of course, but as far as the "how do I tell things should happen", the setting system should be a good start
[17:53] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-service-hierarchy r266 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:53] <_mup_> Need more robust ending assertions that don't eventually fail with pending deferreds, but non edge case code now works properly with new stateful semantics for watch_exposed_flag
[17:54] <niemeyer> SpamapS: It doesn't have to change the _settings_, I think we shouldn't allow it to, but there are ways it can store and relay information (peer relations, etc)
[17:54] <SpamapS> One thing that mcollective has that this wouldn't give me, that sysadmins *love* is that the output of the agents can be structured and piped so admins can do their grep/sed/awk magic with the data returned.
[17:54] <niemeyer> SpamapS: The idea so far is to reserve the settings framework for human interaction
[17:58] <SpamapS> niemeyer: the run-compaction=1 thing would then run compaction on adding unit though, would it not?
[17:59] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Yeah, we should add an easier way as discussed with hazmat above.. we could have something equivalent to run-compaction=`date`
[17:59] <niemeyer> SpamapS: So units can compare the timestamp
[17:59] <niemeyer> SpamapS: and tell if they're supposed to compact or not
[17:59] <SpamapS> sounds like we need a "message to the unit" interface not a "set a setting" interface
[17:59] <niemeyer> SpamapS: This also solves a number of other issues.. e.g. which units have already compacted?  What if I ask to compact again?  etc
[18:00] <niemeyer> SpamapS: "set a setting" is effectively a "message to the unit" interface
[18:00] <niemeyer> SpamapS: With the advantage that messages are not lost
[18:00] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Nor duplicated, etc
[18:01] <SpamapS> that can make it more complex too since sometimes you mean "send it to the service" and sometimes you mean "send it to the units that exist now"
[18:01] <niemeyer> SpamapS: "the service" in this sense is an abstract concept
[18:01] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Communication will always take place with the underlying units
[18:02] <niemeyer> SpamapS: I get your point, though, I think.. one has to understand how it works
[18:02] <niemeyer> SpamapS: That said, this would likely be true either way..
[18:03] <niemeyer> SpamapS: E.g. how to tell all units they have to compact, but they should do so one at a time, etc
[18:03] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Whatever system we invent for facilitating this will still need some understanding of the issue at hand by the formula author
[18:04] <SpamapS> definitely.. I'm sure it will remain as simple as the other bits of the formula too. :)
[18:08] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Yeah, hopefully we'll evolve to that :)
[18:24] <niemeyer> We have a _gigantic_ review queue on Ensemble..
[18:24] <niemeyer> That's _awesome_.. :-)
[18:24] <niemeyer> Just finishing some Go packaging work to upgrade to the latest weekly, and will do a full round.
[18:42] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk-merge r223 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:42] <_mup_> merge trunk
[18:45] <_mup_> ensemble/auto-dependency-spec r224 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:45] <_mup_> merge auto dep resolution spec
[18:53] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk r241 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:53] <_mup_> merge auto-dependency-resolution prototype [r=niemeyer][f=777816]
[18:53] <_mup_> An auto resolution algorithm implementation for deployment of
[18:53] <_mup_> dependent formulas and relations with constraints satisified from both
[18:53] <_mup_> repository and environment.
[18:57] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk r242 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:57] <_mup_> merge ensemble-deploy-auto-resolve prototype [r=niemeyer][f=788735]
[18:57] <_mup_> Integration of auto dependency resolution of formulas and relations
[18:57] <_mup_> into the deploy cli.
[18:59] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk r243 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:59] <_mup_> remove auto dependency resolution functionality, pending repository work, left in history for future ref.
[19:03] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-service-hierarchy r267 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[19:03] <_mup_> Ensure test_watche_services does not tear down until exposed service watches have been observed to raise StopWatcher
[19:08] <hazmat> niemeyer, bcsaller, jimbaker` standup?
[19:08] <niemeyer> Do we need one today?
[19:08] <jimbaker`> hazmat, sure
[19:08] <niemeyer> I'm a bit behind myself, and feel slow in the last couple of days
[19:08] <hazmat> niemeyer, i'm good without
[19:09] <jimbaker`> no need on my part - i'm just reworking the timing issues introduced by the new stateful api for watch_exposed_flag
[19:09] <hazmat> jimbaker`, bcsaller any blockers or other stuff you guys want to talk about today?
[19:09] <niemeyer> If there are no important topics to sync upon/figure out, I'd prefer to keep hacking/reviewing/etc
[19:09] <jimbaker`> was slow going this morning, but now i'm making good progress
[19:09] <jimbaker`> in fact, excellent progress, so would like to focus on it
[19:09] <hazmat> yeah.. me too
[19:09] <bcsaller> yeah, I just need to finish what I'm working on
[19:09] <hazmat> all right.. tomorrow then
[19:10] <niemeyer> Super
[19:17] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-service-hierarchy r268 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[19:17] <_mup_> Looping on all tests except test_watch_service_changes_removed_services, which needs to take in account new semantics
[19:24] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-service-hierarchy r269 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[19:24] <_mup_> Fixed last test for new semantics
[20:21] <_mup_> ensemble/security-specification r240 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:21] <_mup_> security overview and todo spec draft
[20:22] <niemeyer> Okay.. packages out of the way.. will step out for a moment and come back to that review queue
[20:57] <niemeyer> hazmat: What was the outcome of our debate about the db-relation-joined issue on mysql again?
[20:57] <niemeyer> hazmat: The one re. the fact it wasn't updating on re-joins
[20:58] <hazmat> niemeyer, that the formula hook should check if credentials are already set on its relation, and if not it should create them, even if the db exists
[20:59] <niemeyer> hazmat: Ah, with the relation id thing, ok
[20:59] <niemeyer> hazmat: Thanks
[20:59] <hazmat> niemeyer, np
[21:10] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk r244 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:10] <_mup_> Merged fix-mysql-example-formula-publish-details-precreated-databases branch
[21:10] <_mup_> [a=kim0][r=niemeyer]
[21:10] <_mup_> This enables reusing the same example mysql formula multiple times
[21:10] <_mup_> when deployed.
[21:10] <_mup_> The proper way to fix this is actually to use a database named after the
[21:10] <_mup_> relation id, and then create a new database on every new relation id we
[21:10] <_mup_> get.  The problem is that we currently don't offer such a relation id for
[21:10] <_mup_> the hooks, so this will do for now.
[21:59] <SpamapS> re the formulas re-creating credentials.. the principia mysql formula touches a flag file when the relation is broken, and revokes the credentials at that time. When the flag is present, or database is missing, it creates new credentials.
[21:59] <SpamapS> It has an additional check if its a slave since the db will be present but the credentials will be wrong in the db and need updating.
[22:34] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk r245 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:34] <_mup_> Merged micro-is-sluggish branch [r=hazmat]
[22:34] <_mup_> This changes the default instance type on EC2 to m1.small.
[22:46] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-service-hierarchy r271 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:46] <_mup_> Additional cleanup re removing unnecessary observers
[22:50] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk r246 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[22:50] <_mup_> Merge write-formula-tutorial branch [a=kim0] [r=niemeyer]
[22:50] <_mup_> Yes, a formula writing tutorial!
[22:53] <kim0> _mup_: are you being sarcastic :D
[22:54] <niemeyer> kim0: Not at all.. :-)
[22:55] <niemeyer> kim0: Something important we were lacking
[22:55] <kim0> hehe  cool then :)
[23:37] <_mup_> ensemble/config-set r240 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[23:37] <_mup_> merge trunk


[01:22] <hggdh> iceroot, bkerensa: the alternate uses debian-installer
[01:22] <hggdh> (late, but ah well)
[06:30] <iceroot> hggdh: thank you, it was not to late :)
[13:14] <penguin42> does anyone know if there is a master bug for support of 1366x768 displays? (Or know if it ever works?)
[13:15] <roadmr> penguin42: what problem do you see? I've never had problems with that resolution
[13:45] <penguin42> roadmr: I've had problems on 2 entirely diverse machines; one is a modern Intel graphics card with VGA to a 1366x768 TV, the other is an ancient Geforce (2?) card to a 1366x768 monitor, again by VGA
[13:45] <penguin42> roadmr: There is a known problem with EDID on VGA at that res, so you say you never had a problem - was it on VGA?
[13:46] <roadmr> penguin42: ah so that's the thing :) no, I mostly test it on laptop internal panels
[13:46] <penguin42> roadmr: The problem is 1366 isn't divisible by 8 and apparently that breaks EDID
[13:46] <roadmr> penguin42: oh I see
[13:46] <penguin42> roadmr: see: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/8705.html
[13:47] <penguin42> roadmr: I can see lots of bugs where they've been closed/expired/merged with other 'wrong resolution' bugs - but I think it's the geenral 1366x768 problem
[13:52] <roadmr> interesting
[14:08] <penguin42> submits it as bug 975175
[14:08] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 975175 in xorg "1366x768 over VGA generic problems" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/975175
[14:12] <penguin42> admits it's a little odd report, but I think it's right
[17:37] <krnekhelesh> is there anyone part of ubuntu bug control here?
[17:38] <krnekhelesh> I need someone to mark a bug as won't fix ... after a small discussion
[17:41] <greg-g> krnekhelesh: best method is to say what you are thinking and people will respond when/if they have time
[17:42] <krnekhelesh> oh ok
[17:42] <krnekhelesh> basically if you look at this bug report https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/973181
[17:42] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 973181 in indicator-session "System commands presence confuse the definition of App" [Medium,Fix committed]
[17:43] <krnekhelesh> it removes the systems commands like shutdown, restart from the dash
[17:43] <krnekhelesh> but there is another bug report https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/958467
[17:43] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 958467 in unity "Add "suspend" entry to the dash, in addition to "Restart" and "Shut Down"." [Wishlist,Incomplete]
[17:43] <krnekhelesh> which is asking for suspend to be added to the dash
[17:43] <krnekhelesh> these 2 bug reports are conflicting each other
[17:44] <krnekhelesh> I propose that "Add suspend entry" bug report be marked as won't fix since it has been decided to remove shutdown, restart entries from the dash
[17:44] <greg-g> I would let the Unity people deal with that one, as with any interface design decisions, there will be disagreements, and they might have their own policy on how to handle such situations
[17:45] <greg-g> krnekhelesh: I would ask in #ubuntu-unity
[17:47] <krnekhelesh> greg-g, are you going to ask or you recommend that I ask?
[17:48] <penguin42> what's the definition of 'core application' for the bug importance guidance?  If it's in main is it core?
[17:52] <greg-g> krnekhelesh: you should ask, sorry I was unclear with that.
[17:54] <krnekhelesh> greg-g : i have asked john lea, waiting for his input..thnx
[17:57] <greg-g> aweomse, np
[19:08] <micahg> penguin42: http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/precise/core
[19:10] <penguin42> micahg: Ah thank you - any chance of linking to that or a stable URL for that from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
[19:11] <penguin42> (actually it would be better if lp showed you a package was core when you looked at it's bug)
[23:09] <dlentz> This bug might need looked at (preferably, someone should at least set the importance so it doesn't show up in the critical list): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/863504
[23:09] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 863504 in ubuntu "Steelseries Xai mouse causing slow resume from suspend" [Undecided,Fix released]
[23:18] <penguin42> dlentz: Now it shows as fix released - is it?
[23:32] <penguin42> dlentz: Hmm just read it through - bit of a mess; so it's saying that it seems to break windows boot as well, but at least on windows it doesn't seem to break their suspend
[23:32] <dlentz> and then the last person says they're not experiencing it?
[23:33] <dlentz> the Improtance=Unknown is what causes it to show up on the critical list though
[23:33] <penguin42> hmm what a mess - I wonder if it depends on USB controller/hub/power/phase of the moon
[23:33]  * dlentz consults his lunar calendar
[23:34] <penguin42> dlentz: But what should be the importance, I mean looking at the list 'A problem with an essential hardware component (disk controller, built-in networking, video card, keyboard, mouse)' would flag for high, but then again it's only a delay not a crash/hang/unusable device, and it only affects resuming
[23:36] <dlentz> even 'high' would be better than unknown/critical
[23:36] <penguin42> dlentz: Why do you say critical next to unknown ?
[23:38] <dlentz> if you go to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu , then this bug shows up at the top of list when sorted by importance (even higher than the critical bugs)
[23:38] <dlentz> i personally see it as low importance because there's an easy workaround (wait 20 secs)
[23:39] <penguin42> oh, hmm - why does that happen - I mean there have to be loads of unknown status bugs
[23:39] <dlentz> unknown != undecided
[23:39] <penguin42> dlentz: We could cut it in the middle and put it at medium
[23:39] <penguin42> oh yes, sorry hadn't noticed that
[23:39] <dlentz> you could even set it to undecided
[23:39] <penguin42> how does it get to Unknown then?
[23:40] <penguin42> I'll set it to Medium
[23:40] <dlentz> a triager set it that way
[23:41] <dlentz> thanks for time/attn
[23:41] <penguin42> dlentz: Hey, it just made me curious
[23:44] <penguin42> dlentz: It seems nuts that a trigger would set something to a state that nothing else would
[23:47] <dlentz> you mean 'triager'?
[23:48] <penguin42> dlentz: But how did they set it - I can't pick unknown off there
[23:49] <penguin42> is it becuase it's wired to the debian bug and it's waiting to get input from that?
[23:50] <dlentz> i'm not the most experienced bug squad member, a good question for someone higher-up though
[23:51] <penguin42> me neither - I don't quite understand that mechanics


[01:20] <pwnguin> heh, yet another gentoo fork
[01:21] <pwnguin> I love this one: things we find problematic with gentoo: "portage, management, developers, qa, users, and the lack of designers"
[01:21] <jdong> pwnguin: lol isn't that the whole distribution
[01:21] <jdong> pwnguin: head over to Ulteo too to learn about their innovative "application balls"
[01:21] <jdong> pwnguin: in my sleep deprived state I've found that extremely amusing.
[01:21] <pwnguin> it gets better
[01:22] <pwnguin> http://kloeri.livejournal.com/5016.html
[01:22] <pwnguin> they're ready to tackle the problems of gentoo, and also write yet another initsystem
[01:23] <pwnguin> " * We're writing a completely new initsystem free of all the weird, useless legacy stuff and based on user needs in the 21st century."
[01:23] <RAOF> work is ongoing on this topic [multilib] and there'll probably be huge changes but we have a fairly decent idea how to handle all the multi stuff sanely.
[01:24] <RAOF> Heh.
[01:24] <selckin>  not hurting anyone, let em try
[01:24] <selckin> can't deny gentoo is a mess
[01:24] <pwnguin> apparently sysvinit, initng, runinit, launchd, upstart, eINIT, SMF and so on wasn't up to task
[01:25] <pwnguin> selckin: gentoo might be a mess, but I'm not sure they're going to actually clean anything up
[06:36] <emgent> heya
[07:35] <Q-FUNK> mornin'!
[07:35]  * Q-FUNK just arrived in Prague
[07:53] <pitti> Good morning
[08:34] <soren> pochu: Hey.
[08:35] <soren> pochu: Just to let you know, I'm doing  the gtk-vnc update now.
[08:40] <pochu> soren: the sru?
[08:40] <pochu> soren: thanks :)
[08:42] <pitti> cjwatson: YokoZar proposed https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/killing-ia32-libs, which is quite toolchainish (multiarch); is there time/interest to discuss it this week?
[08:44] <Amaranth> that spec is pretty empty
[08:45] <soren> pochu: Yeah, sorry for the delay. Feel free to ping me more often I suck like this again :)
[08:53] <YokoZar> Amaranth: I'll fill it out a bit, but the main issue is discussing how to kill ia32-libs since it needs to die and there are many ways we might kill it
[08:55] <persia> YokoZar: Is there anything planned other than death-by-1000-cuts, as we modify each library otherwise included in ia32-libs?
[08:55] <Riddell> tkamppeter: when and where are the printing sessions today?
[08:55] <YokoZar> persia: Well making a bunch of packages a la lib32asound2 is one option, but pitti seemed to have other ideas about doing it more elegantly within the toolchain.  We've been waiting on multiarch for years, however.
[08:56] <ScottK-uds> And AFAIK no one is actually working on multiarch.
[09:29] <tkamppeter> Riddell, biff
[09:31] <Riddell> tkamppeter: are the printing sessons scheduled yet?
[09:31] <Riddell> not 11 to 13 for me, otherwise fine
[09:34] <tkamppeter> Riddell, on the dialog we will then schedule an extra session. There we do not get everyone together at once, I go to one after the other and talk with hm ...
[09:35] <tkamppeter> The dialog session is also very early, we cannot get Alexander Wauck to call in.
[09:35] <tkamppeter> Keybuk, ping
[09:35] <Riddell> oh, if I press F5 they're on the schedule
[09:35] <Riddell> right, I can't do that 12:00 one
[09:36] <Riddell> keybuk is busy running this desktop session
[09:37] <tkamppeter> Riddell, I will ask Keybuk for another session today or tomorrow in the afternoon to get at least him and Alex together with me.
[09:38] <tkamppeter> Im mixing up everything, let me retry
[09:38] <tkamppeter> Riddell, I will ask Keybuk for another session today or tomorrow in the afternoon to get at least you and Alex together with me.
[09:38] <Riddell> right
[09:39] <alkisg> Hello everyone. I'd like to add some features to ldm (LTSP Display Manager), like user-sign-up feature for new students, a remote desktop button etc, but I don't want to "just fork". What is the proper way to do something like that?
[09:40] <Riddell> alkisg: talk to ogra when he's online
[09:40] <\sh> alkisg, talking to ogra
[09:40] <tkamppeter> Riddell, are you in a session currently?
[09:40] <Riddell> tkamppeter: yes
[09:41] <alkisg> Thank you, I'll try to find him!
[09:41] <tkamppeter> Riddell, have you 1pm today you have time to meet me informally, in the lobby, to talk about the dialog?
[09:42] <tkamppeter> Or perhaps at lunch?
[09:42] <Riddell> tkamppeter: yes, lunch is fine
[09:46] <tkamppeter> Riddell, so come here to the Lobby of the third floor at 1pm and then we go to lunch together.
[09:47] <pwnguin> if travis is is NotAmaranth, then that must mean...
[09:47] <pwnguin> It's opposite day!
[09:53] <Riddell> pwnguin: no it's not
[09:56] <emgent> persia: i saw mail, Thanks :)
[10:04] <pochu> soren: thanks! hope it doesnt break your virt* stuff :)
[10:08] <soren> pochu: Me too :)
[10:12] <emgent> tseliot: where are you now?
[10:12] <tseliot> emgent: volga
[10:12] <tseliot> kubuntu-kde4
[10:13] <emgent> argh, is not for me :)
[10:53] <saispo> hello, anyone known this error when you build a package ? (parsechangelog/debian: avertissement:     debian/changelog(l5743): fin de fichier trouvée, first heading attendu)
[10:54] <james_w> saispo: you're debian/changelog probably has a syntax error
[10:54] <wgrant> s/probably //
[10:55] <james_w> if you pastebin it then we can help you fix it up.
[10:56] <ln-> james_w: "you're" -> "your"
[10:56] <saispo> james_w: grab the changelog from http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-hardy.git;a=blob;f=debian/changelog;h=3fb3f2de98cf665bf147b4511a727eb4af6ab2a2;hb=HEAD :)
[10:56] <saispo> it's this changelog :p
[10:58] <james_w> I can't see anything immediately.
[10:58] <wgrant> Particularly not on line 5743.
[10:59] <saispo> it's the end of the file :/
[10:59] <saispo> after i do a debchange -i
[10:59] <wgrant> Ah, so it's not that changelog.
[11:00] <saispo> it's the same with a debchange -i, just that
[11:00] <wgrant> Can you please translate that error?
[11:01] <saispo> yes, with my english words
[11:02] <saispo> parsechangelog/debian: warning: debian/changelog(l5743): end of file found, first heading waited)
[11:05] <wgrant> Huh.
[11:08] <saispo> wgrant: no idea ?
[11:08] <wgrant> saispo: Does it work OK if you use that changelog without `dch -i`ing?
[11:09] <saispo> don't try at this time, but i can, must waiting a long time for the build process :)
[11:11] <saispo> wgrant: it's working...
[11:11] <saispo> debchange -i don't work ??
[11:12] <wgrant> saispo: It might have become confused at the format of that latest entry.
[11:12] <wgrant> Check the diff between the old and new ones.
[11:12] <saispo> ok
[11:13] <saispo> thanks wgrant
[11:16] <saispo> wgrant: i found why, thanks
[11:43] <Keybuk> Keybuk's Wishlist #1 : ~/.local/share/hal/fdi
[12:31] <sdh> cjwatson: ping?
[12:31] <sdh> cjwatson: I mailed Matthew Veron, he tells me you're now openssh maintainer... so, incoming :)
[14:40] <hiho-man> http://xrl.us/bkj9x
[15:45] <tmmoyer> is there any place which describes how versions of packages are compared to determine if one package version is greater than the other?  or at least explains the different possible combinations of version that could appear on package?  The way I understand it, there are potentially 4 different numbers the upstream version, the debian build number, the ubuntu build number and a possible NMU version number (am I missing any?)
[15:47] <tmmoyer> is there any place that describes the structure/rules of version numbers in ubuntu? the way I am currently understanding things, there are potentially 4 numbers the upstream, the debian, the ubuntu, and a non-maintainer upload version number is this correct?
[15:48] <geser> tmmoyer: the debian policy manual describes the format of the version string and you can compare versions with "dpkg --compare-versions"
[15:48] <broonie> tmmoyer: The Debian policy document (debian-policy package) describes the comparison function;
[15:50] <geser> looks like it wasn't that important that he couldn't wait some minutes for an answer
[15:57] <fabbione> BenC: silo pull request? :)
[16:08] <dee> Hello Ubuntu-Devs.
[16:09] <dee> Could someone tell me why Ubuntu Live is cancelled in June? Does anybody has some background information?  Maybe someone else knows more
[20:59] <mok0> soren: ping
[23:00] <wildcode> how do I find a maintainer of a particular package
[23:01] <wildcode> specifically, who maintains the wildmidi package in ubuntu
[23:02] <wildcode> I'm the author of WildMIDI and would like to see any patches ubuntu made to the original source
[23:03] <beuno> wildcode, http://patches.ubuntu.com/ is a good place to look
[23:03] <wildcode> thankyou
[23:05] <wildcode> hmm, no patch ... does that mean no changes?
[23:05] <beuno> wildcode, yeap
[23:07] <wildcode> k, so who do I find out wh the maintainer is, so I can see if there is anything I can do to make their life easier ... apart from stop breaking the cvs source :)
[23:08] <beuno> wildcode, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wildmidi
[23:09] <beuno> Uploaded By:  Emilio Pozuelo Monfort
[23:09] <beuno> Maintainer:  Emmet Hikory
[23:10] <beuno> wildcode, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wildmidi/+publishinghistory
[23:10] <wildcode> I appologize if I am being annoying, its judt I was supprised to see wildmidi in a distro specially since it was made out of curiosity
[23:10] <beuno> wildcode, not a problem
[23:10] <beuno> open source works that way  :)
[23:11] <wildcode> :)
[23:11] <Adri2000> wildcode: the package comes from debian and is not modified in ubuntu, so you should talk to the debian maintainer, Emmet Hikory, who is also an ubuntu developer by the way
[23:13] <wildcode> hehe, no problem
[23:16] <ScottK-uds> wildcode: His IRC handle is persia.  He is most often found on #ubuntu-motu, altough he's not there now.
[23:16] <ScottK-uds> Urgh.  To slow.
[23:19] <ispiked> when one presses volume keys on their keyboard, Ubuntu adjusts the volume... what code handles this? I've gotten as far as figuring out that it uses the X11 "XF86Audio*" commands, but I don't know what program/daemon handles those commands


[01:13] <bluesabre> The software center in Xubuntu releases prior to 24.04 is GNOME Software and not a snap app. It's just slow.
[15:21] <xu-help93w> Hey
[15:21] <xu-help93w> Hey can anyone help me either change or find my account details?
[15:21] <diogenes_Vx15> xu-help93w, what do you mean?
[15:23] <xu-help93w> So I’m trying to set up this piece of equipment called a musii which is an inflatable sensory system and it’s asking me for a username and a password but as this is second hand I can’t find a way to change ?
[15:24] <diogenes_Vx15> xu-help93w, i've never heard/understand what are you taking about.
[15:25] <xu-help93w> If you have a phone number I can call for XUBUNTU
[15:27] <diogenes_Vx15> your metaphors and oxymorons are way beyond my level of understanding.


[00:00] <valorie> I always prefer to support free open source when possible
[00:00] <mikhas> well yes, but in which way do plan on supporting it? ;-)
[00:00] <mikhas> loaded question I know
[00:02] <valorie> using it and being willing to file bugs is support
[00:02] <valorie> imo
[00:34] <ahoneybun> hello
[03:46] <ahoneybun> hey sgclark
[07:48] <kubotu> ::runtime-bugs:: [1270571] Systemsettings crash when interrupting kcm-language at loading @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1270571 (by KDEUSER56)
[07:54] <lordievader> Good morning.
[08:28] <kubotu> ::workspace-bugs:: [1240122] After log in the geometry of the widgets and windows are shown rotated. @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1240122 (by Konstantinos Koukos)
[09:15] <apachelogger> Riddell: bug 1270389
[09:15] <apachelogger> libqt4-sql-mysql, depends, recommends or maybe suggests?
[09:24] <tsimpson> it'd be better if it didn't offer the option to use MySQL if the driver isn't installed
[09:27] <tsimpson> I suppose I'd say suggests though, as it's an alternative to the default
[09:33] <kubotu> ::workspace-bugs:: [1201180] Pressing power button turns off the PC ignoring the presence of another session manager @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1201180 (by Marco Trevisan (Treviño))
[09:51] <apachelogger> hm
[09:51] <apachelogger> tsimpson: actually maybe we should just get the bug upstreamed
[09:52] <tsimpson> apachelogger: probably the best thing to do
[09:52] <apachelogger> righ then, suggests and upstreaming
[09:52] <apachelogger> since suggests has no real life consequences anyway :S
[09:54] <tsimpson> which is half the reason I think it's the right way to go :p
[09:54] <apachelogger> yeah, well, it solves the issue on a theoretical level, not much good for the user that is
[09:55] <apachelogger> ultimately digikam would adhoc install the driver if the user selected the mysql collection thing
[09:56] <tsimpson> it seems it just reads the list of drivers from an XML file and presents them all to the user as options
[09:57] <apachelogger> shadeslayer, xnox: please note that digikam has a bzr branch for the packaging that both of you casually ignored to use for the 4:3.5.0-0ubuntu2 to ubuntu5 uploads :P
[09:58] <apachelogger> tsimpson: people should stop using high level tooling for complex applications IMHO
[09:58] <apachelogger> same with designer ui files
[09:58] <apachelogger> they usually cause more trouble than they are worth
[09:59] <tsimpson> who knew it took a DOM parser to present a selection dialog...
[09:59] <valorie> shadeslayer might be absent for a bit
[09:59] <valorie> he said his grandfather is hospitalized with a brain infection
[09:59] <valorie> so he might not make it to FOSDEm
[10:00] <apachelogger> oh my
[10:00] <valorie> yeah
[10:00] <valorie> :(
[10:02] <valorie> having delivered that icky news, I'm heading to bed
[10:03] <apachelogger> valorie: nn
[10:08] <apachelogger> digikam synced to bzr and uploaded
[10:08] <apachelogger> done with bugs mails \o/
[10:13] <apachelogger> meh
[10:13] <apachelogger> amd64 still oversized -.-
[10:15] <apachelogger> wgrant: are we going to ship with python3.3 and python3.4 for trusty or is that just transitional?
[10:19] <wgrant> apachelogger: I'd hope we'd drop 3.3 before release, but it probably depends on how the migration to 3.4 goes. doko would be the person to talk to.
[10:24] <apachelogger> mh, I'll try to make space for it on the ISO, to be on the safe side
[10:41] <apachelogger> :/
[10:41] <apachelogger> Riddell: how does one build language-pack-common?
[10:48] <jarkko> the language files sh ould be included in the installer iso
[10:48] <jarkko> on slow connection it takes too much time to get them
[10:58] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[11:00] <jarkko> when you install new wallpapers on kde, where does it get the new papers?
[11:06] <BluesKaj> jarkko, right click on the desktop, choose Desfault Desktop Settings>View, either "default wallpapers" or "get new wallpapers" or "open" , which opens dolphin and you can use pics stored on your pc
[11:08] <BluesKaj> of course the layout has to be default desktop
[11:12] <jarkko> BluesKaj: i mean from where it downloads new papers
[11:14] <BluesKaj> not sure jarkko , but I think it's from here http://kde-look.org/
[11:23] <Quintasan> Hi.
[11:23] <jarkko> BluesKaj: looks like it
[11:23] <jarkko> BluesKaj: does all kde distros use that?
[11:23] <BluesKaj> hi Quintasan
[11:24] <BluesKaj> jarkko, again , not sure, but i think so
[11:25] <Quintasan> Riddell: What happened to the guy I started tutoring on merging?
[11:26] <shadeslayer> apachelogger:  must have missed it
[11:27] <Quintasan> christ
[11:27] <Quintasan> forgot to ask about FOSDEM
[11:27] <Quintasan> !@#$@!
[11:29] <apachelogger> Quintasan: FOSDEM?
[11:29] <apachelogger> there, I fixed it
[11:30] <Quintasan> apachelogger: gibe moneys so I can go.
[11:30] <apachelogger> oh, you are mighty late mate
[11:30] <apachelogger> also you need to ask the council
[11:30] <apachelogger> not me
[11:30] <Quintasan> apachelogger: I realised that, that's why I'm cursing
[11:31] <apachelogger> technically you were praying I guess
[11:32] <Quintasan> Well, I guess you could interpret it that way I guess.
[11:32]  * Quintasan goes into hiding
[14:58] <jarkko__> why so quiet here today?
[15:35] <BluesKaj> good question, maybe the devs are all busy
[18:15] <ahoneybun> valorie: http://www.scribus.net/canvas/About
[18:23] <jarkko_> anyone here?
[18:23] <soee> yup
[18:23] <soee> as always :)
[18:23] <Riddell> sure
[18:24] <jarkko_> i dont exactly know what happened but my deskop somehow broke
[18:24] <jarkko_> well its almost fixed now
[18:24] <jarkko_> but
[18:24] <jarkko_> if i add empty panel, there is not even k-panel on it
[18:24] <jarkko_> i think there should be
[18:26] <jarkko__> well its fixed now
[18:26] <jarkko__> but shouldnt there be k-panel on empty panel?
[18:31] <jarkko_______> none of the running programs doesnt seem to go panel
[18:32] <jarkko_______> ??
[18:33] <soee> k-panel ?
[18:34] <soee> empty panel adds just empty panel
[18:34] <Riddell> jussi: lovely stickers :)
[18:34] <soee> try to add Default panel
[18:34] <soee> it contains all defualt wiedgets
[18:43] <jarkko> i got working
[18:43] <jarkko> but there was no such thing than default panel
[18:43] <jarkko> only empty
[19:27] <kubotu> ::qt-bugs:: [1270925] unable to update, remove and install packages because of libqt4 errors @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1270925 (by prads)


[00:07] <penguin42> that's obscene: -rwxrwxr-x 1 root root 1.1G Mar 30 14:09 /usr/lib/debug/usr/lib/libwebkitgtk-1.0.so.0.13.1
[00:23] <LordOfTime> regression bugs get the 'regression' tag right?
[00:23] <penguin42> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags
[00:24] <penguin42> near the bottom
[00:25]  * penguin42 really doesn't feel comfortable marking bug 905814 low, even though it has an easy workaround
[00:25] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 905814 in webkit "eclipse crashed [on closing welcome tab] in libwebkitgtk-1.0 webViewExitFullscreen+0x30" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/905814
[00:31] <penguin42> set it to medium with justification
[09:23] <mfaure> hello
[09:26] <mfaure> I'd like to reopen a bug (because we are many users having the same problem). Is that the correct action to do ? And if so, how to do it ? (I actually can't reopen it, the status if "fix release")
[09:26] <mfaure> and the actual bug is https://bugs.launchpad.net/bamf/+bug/842566
[09:26] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 842566 in bamf "Libreoffice and unity integration broken." [High,Fix released]
[10:03] <reisi> i'm reporting a bug to launchpad and now have gdb open at a segfaulting app, in addition to backtrace what should i get?
[10:09] <reisi> found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backtrace which has more info
[10:26] <reisi> if someone could check out https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openldap/+bug/1026057 if it's missing anything, i could get right to it while it's still easy to reproduce
[10:26] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 1026057 in openldap "Segfault when setting bad olcTLSCipherSuite" [Undecided,New]
[18:34] <hggdh> reisi: good enough. I will let the openldap folks deal with it
[19:28] <reisi> hggdh: great, thanks


[12:27] <Nece228> ubuntu dust should be included by default in intrepid
[12:29] <Nece228> its highest rated theme in gnome-look, and it looks radically different than the current
[12:58] <nand> thorwil: hey!
[12:58] <thorwil> hi nand
[12:58] <nand> I found a good opportunity for your widget to become famous :)
[12:58] <nand> http://trolltech.com/developer/pimp-my-widgets-developer-contest/
[12:59]  * thorwil looks
[13:03] <thorwil> nand: that's ... interesting. thanks for the info!
[13:03] <nand> thorwil: will you try to participate?
[13:04] <thorwil> nand: i have no clue how to work with qt designer and the prices don't interest me one bit :)
[13:05] <nand> thorwil: I was not expecting the price to be your motivation factor :)
[13:06] <nand> But well, you have some ideas and will to change our interaction with the UI, it's the occasion to actually show it :)
[13:07] <nand> Qt is not that hard, their docs is pretty clear. I have seen much worse!
[13:14]  * thorwil just received his first, or maybe second, fan-mail
[13:16] <nand> :) kyudo?
[13:16] <thorwil> nand: guess i should check if that qt stuff is better suited for demos / test implementations than py-gtk, anyway. atm, i'm a bit swamped, though
[13:17] <thorwil> nand: no, countdown banner
[13:17] <nand> eheh
[13:18] <thorwil> nand: so far only like 5 people showed actual interest in kyudo
[13:19]  * nand would really like to have "only" 5 contributor to ideatorrent
[13:19] <nand> that's a good start, I'd say!
[13:19] <thorwil> heh, i said interested, not contributors ;)
[13:19] <nand> urg
[13:20] <nand> and did you started something concrete to show to the list? Having some concrete material can help gathering more interested people sometimes
[13:21] <nand> like your new fans :)
[13:21] <thorwil> with 5 somewhat competent people, we could run the entire show ...
[13:21] <thorwil> nand: it's just now in a state where i can move towards something more concrete
[13:22] <nand> cool!
[13:24] <thorwil> but i have artwork for wubi and mudlet on my list first. interest might heat up after intrepid release, anyway
[13:24] <nand> indeed
[13:33] <thorwil> nand: how are things going for you?
[13:35] <rsc--> hi folks
[13:36] <thorwil> hi rsc--
[13:37] <nand> thorwil: soso, work is not that interesting, and I don't find time anymore for my online hobbies
[13:37] <nand> hi rsc--
[13:37] <nand> hopefully that'll get resolved soon
[13:37] <thorwil> rsc--: tell you what, you should work on a countdown banner for next release instead of a wallpaper. much more rewarding, no shitty comments at all ;)
[13:38] <thorwil> nand: the interest of the hobbie part? hope at least the pay is ok :)
[13:38] <nand> that part is fortunately ok :)
[13:40] <kwwii> hi rsc--, thorwil, nand
[13:40] <thorwil> hello kwwii
[13:40] <nand> heya
[17:01] <Cimi> kwwii, please update murrine for intrepid
[17:17] <kwwii> Cimi: I am afraid that it is too late for that kind of change :-(
[17:18] <kwwii> Cimi: you might want to talk to pitti if you think you can convince him
[17:18] <Cimi> kwwii, first of all remove any kind of style line in ALL the gtkrcs
[17:19] <Cimi> so that people won't take those as a base (and spread the style = MURRINE option)
[17:20] <Cimi> do you know what you've done? you've introduced a broken development snapshot in a distro release
[17:26] <thorwil> ooh, drama!
[17:28] <Cimi> thorwil, if people will make themes using the version in intrepid, they will be completely (windows 95 look) in 9.04 or just when murrine will be updated
[17:28] <Cimi> *completely broken
[17:29] <Cimi> because the engine does not parse style = MURRINE option
[17:29] <Cimi> and it won't load
[17:29] <thorwil> awesome
[17:29] <Cimi> yeah
[17:29] <Cimi> expecting a lot of bugreports to your launchpad
[17:30] <Cimi> *latest update broke my theme*
[17:30] <Cimi> *updating murrine makes my themes look like...*
[17:30] <Cimi> etc etc
[18:04] <kwwii> we just won't update it until intrepid+1
[18:04] <kwwii> kinda silly to be changing the api anyway
[18:05] <kwwii> and if I updated it now, all upgraders would say "latest update broke my theme"
[18:05] <kwwii> in fact, it would break all themes out there, wouldn't it?
[18:12] <Cimi> kwwii, only dust I guess
[18:13] <Cimi> you just need to remove that line
[18:13] <Cimi> but if you wait april 09
[18:13] <Cimi> there wil be muuuch more themes that will broke
[19:40] <zniavre> sed -i 's!style[[:space:]]*=[[:space:]]*MURRINE!profile = MURRINE!' /usr/share/themes/DarkRoom/gtk-2.0/gtkrc