[05:58] <didrocks> good morning
[06:16] <jibel> Good morning all
[06:16] <duflu> Morning didrocks and jibel
[06:21] <jibel> HEy duflu
[06:42] <seb128> goood morning desktopers
[06:45] <didrocks> salut jibel, duflu, seb128
[06:45] <duflu> Hi seb128
[06:47] <tsimonq2> Hey Desktop Team, I hope y'all are well :)
[06:50] <duflu> Hi tsimonq2
[06:58] <KBar> hi. is there a specific reason for not installing all binaries of gnome-session? https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-session/tree/debian/gnome-session-bin.install
[07:01] <seb128> KBar, specifically? which ones would you expect there?
[07:02] <KBar> seb128: gnome-session-selector, for example
[07:03] <KBar> looks like debian installs all of them: https://salsa.debian.org/gnome-team/gnome-session/-/blob/debian/master/debian/gnome-session-bin.install
[07:04] <seb128> KBar, gnome-session-selector doesn't exist in Debian either
[07:05] <seb128> KBar, https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/gnome-session-bin/filelist
[07:06] <KBar> interesting. looks like the 'enable_session_selector' isn't enabled
[07:06] <KBar> seb128: in that case, 'gnome-session-custom-session' is redundant and potentially destructive, as it depends on 'gnome-session-selector'
[07:08] <seb128> KBar, I've no idea what gnome-session-custom-session is doing but it sounds like an upstream issue if they allow to build that without building other components it needs
[07:10] <KBar> seb128: its just a two-line shell script: `g-s-s; exec gnome-session` you're right, i'll report this on salsa. thanks
[07:10] <seb128> KBar, np!
[07:12] <lissyx> seb128, so including the debug symbols within the snap package bumps ~30MB: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1766901#c21
[07:13] <seb128> lissyx, those don't need to be in the snap do they? just to be exported somehow at the end of the build right?
[07:14] <lissyx> seb128, they dont need but my understanding from launchpad buildsystem we have no other choice than to keep them in the snap package so we can extract from taskcluster
[07:15] <seb128> because we can't have a secret to do the upload from the launchpad side?
[07:16] <lissyx> it seems so
[07:17] <seb128> right, I think the 30M are an acceptable workaround until launchpad allows us to solve it differently
[07:17] <seb128> let me check with other people in the team today
[07:18] <seb128> and brb, need to change location and drop from IRC for a bit, I will read the backlog if I miss anything
[07:45] <seb128> and back online
[07:47] <seb128> didrocks, jibel, hey, I'm asking in case you have some tips for ubiquity UI hacking, on did some more recently that me ... is there a dry-mode/load one plugin directly kind of hack available? I don't remember
[07:52] <lissyx> seb128, I need to verify the flow on github actions, it could be that we can avoid this on at least nightly
[07:54] <seb128> lissyx, right, the ones built on github should be able to have a secret and handle the upload from the build and strip at the end
[07:55] <lissyx> I dont know how much of the users are on nightly, but it's still 30MB saved for transfer and storage ...
[07:56] <lissyx> unrelated, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1773316#c2
[07:56] <lissyx> I am unsure I understand his statement
[07:56] <lissyx> > The option print documents was set to a dash which implies that cups is not accessible I guess. By selecting "cups:cups-server" i could then see my printers with firefox. Problem solved.
[07:56] <lissyx> would snap require specifics for cups?
[08:00] <seb128> lissyx, snap have interfaces to grant access to resources, the cups one is connected by default (auto-connection to some specific interfaces can be granted from the store side after a review process)
[08:00] <jibel> seb128, there used to be plugin-viewer-gtk.py but I just tested and it needs some love to port it to recent gtk and python.
[08:00] <lissyx> seb128, so there might be a real issue here that it was not done by default
[08:01] <jibel> ./plugin-viewer-gtk.py ubi-language to test the language page for example
[08:01] <seb128> lissyx, yes, that would be a bug on the snapd/store side though, not in firefox. Note that local built don't have the auto-connection, so we would need to learn more about it
[08:02] <seb128> jbicha, thanks, I will try to play with that
[08:02] <seb128> lissyx, I meant it could be the user fault, a local built or a snap installed with snap install <downloaded_snap>
[08:15] <ricotz> hello desktopers!
[08:19] <KBar> good day/morning!
[08:20] <seb128> hey ricotz, how are you?
[08:24] <ricotz> seb128, hey, could be better, corona finally got me, how are you?
[08:24] <seb128> ricotz, oh, no :-( I hope you only have mild symptoms?
[08:24] <ricotz> seb128, is osomon out today?
[08:24] <seb128> I'm already, a small cold but which isn't covid
[08:24] <seb128> ricotz, yes, until monday
[08:25] <ricotz> seb128, I wouldn't call the symptoms mild, but the worse part should be over :)
[08:26] <seb128> k, well I hope you will have recovered soon!
[08:26] <ricotz> seb128, I see, regarding firefox, upstream finally caught up with the armhf build failures
[08:26] <seb128> ah, nice
[08:27] <ricotz> still a lot of cherry picking since only the 102esr branch will be get fixed
[08:28] <ricotz> seb128, thank you, I hope so, a week without sports isn't much fun :(
[08:31] <KBar> get well soon!
[08:31] <seb128> jibel, thanks for the suggestion, I push a trivial fix for the viewer, it's working now :)
[08:37] <jibel> Excellent, thanks!
[09:12] <lissyx> seb128, is it safe to assume that dependencies packed within snap will have the same debug symbols as the distro one?
[09:12] <lissyx> seb128, i.e., pulling jammy's debug symbol is enough to cover snaps on jammy?
[09:12] <lissyx> or "core20" means I should also pull 20.04 symbols ?
[10:23] <seb128> lissyx, you should pull the symbols matching the deb bundled if it brings ubuntu package, but some things might be built from source
[10:23] <seb128> like in the gnome-3-38 snap
[11:48] <jbicha> ricotz: I hope you recover soon
[11:48] <jbicha> happy Friday y'all
[11:51] <seb128> hey jbicha, happy friday to you!
[12:23] <KGB-2> rhythmbox signed tags a04c810 Jeremy Bicha ubuntu/3.4.6-2ubuntu1 * rhythmbox Debian release 3.4.6-2ubuntu1 * https://deb.li/3bzBd
[12:23] <KGB-2> rhythmbox ubuntu/master a1725db Jeremy Bicha * pushed 493 commits (first 5 follow) * https://deb.li/3gEfF
[12:23] <KGB-2> rhythmbox ubuntu/master 1b14819 Jonathan Matthew NEWS README data/org.gnome.Rhythmbox3.appdata.xml.in meson.build * Rhythmbox 3.4.6 * https://deb.li/ixa31
[12:23] <KGB-2> rhythmbox ubuntu/master b2033ef Jeremy Bicha debian/changelog * Update debian/changelog * https://deb.li/kjDe
[12:23] <KGB-2> rhythmbox ubuntu/master e6159d8 Jeremy Bicha (47 files in 26 dirs) * New upstream version 3.4.6 * https://deb.li/3Wzs0
[12:23] <KGB-2> rhythmbox ubuntu/master 902a6bc Jeremy Bicha (47 files in 26 dirs) * Update upstream source from tag 'upstream/3.4.6' * https://deb.li/eEzA
[12:23] <KGB-2> rhythmbox ubuntu/master 439d238 Jeremy Bicha debian/changelog * New upstream release * https://deb.li/3Aawi
[12:39] <rbasak> Does anyone else have issues with gnome-shell leaking on Jammy? After just a few days the RSS is up to nearly 1G, and performance gets increasingly sluggish. A logout/in (or reboot as I often have an outstanding kernel update by then) usually fixes it.
[12:40] <lissyx> seb128, assuming I have had ~0 chance when commenting on launchpad issues that were marked as "fixed", what can I do to get attention on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk4/+bug/1973219/comments/5
[12:40] <lissyx> seb128, this is about https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1768492
[12:40] <rbasak> I don't think I have any extensions enabled. I did disable the desktop icon extension as that was causing issues too. Maybe there's a common underlying cause somewhere.
[12:43] <rbasak> Idle CPU use of gnome-shell is ~10-15% as well. And it's only been four days.
[12:46] <jbicha> lissyx: that should be fixed with LP: #1971112 . It's currently in jammy-proposed. It took a little longer than usual for the SRU to reach jammy-proposed this time
[12:47] <lissyx> jbicha, am I reading right it hit proposed two days ago?
[12:48] <jbicha> yes
[12:48] <lissyx> ok
[12:48] <lissyx> so it's consistent with my VM not having it
[12:49] <lissyx> hm
[12:50] <lissyx> of course if I dont enable proposed ...
[12:50] <seb128> lissyx, what Jeremy said, it was another issue which was just fixed in the newest SRU
[12:51] <jbicha> proposed isn't enabled by default. The important part is that the fix is in progress and is expected to be released to jammy-updates within 2 weeks
[12:51] <lissyx> yeah but I usually enable it always
[12:52] <lissyx> let's reboot to make sure.
[12:54] <lissyx> jbicha, indeed looks like it finally fixes for stable with xwayland
[12:55] <jbicha> feel free to comment on that bug with the results of your testing 😉
[13:03] <lissyx> seb128, olivier is on pto? I dont see him connected
[13:03] <lissyx> seb128, maybe you can answer this? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1749771#c2
[13:04] <seb128> lissyx, yes, he's off today, back on monday
[13:04] <seb128> lissyx, $ snap connections firefox | grep home
[13:04] <seb128> home                      firefox:home                    :home
[13:04] <seb128> so we still connect the home interface
[13:06] <lissyx> yes, but what I fail to understand is whether we still need it
[13:06] <seb128> lissyx, that's probably still wanted to get 'firefox ~/Documents/something.html' working since firefox doesn't go through portals for cmdline arguments
[13:06] <lissyx> right
[13:06] <lissyx> do we want to go through portal for those?
[13:06] <seb128> ideally yes
[13:06] <lissyx> having worked on the CLI parsing, I have my opinion
[13:06] <lissyx> and it's different from yours :)
[13:07] <seb128> because without that you have ~ working but not '$ firefox /usr/share/nicetoy/documentation.html' working
[13:07] <seb128> or we need another solution at the snap level
[13:08] <seb128> there are discussion around apparmor prompting to grant access, maybe that would be another way to solve that one
[13:08] <lissyx> seb128, snap will block arbitrary /usr/share anyway
[13:08] <seb128> trying to access a file would give you an apparmor prompt to give the permission
[13:08] <lissyx> seb128, I've had to land a few PR to fix some issues reported to us around gimp and others doc that are not within /usr/share/doc/
[13:08] <seb128> lissyx, well, not if you were going through the portal
[13:09] <seb128> but yes direct access is denied
[13:09] <lissyx> so we'd need to intercept any file:/// and go through the portal for those?
[13:09] <lissyx> but the portal will prompt user
[13:09] <seb128> that would be one solution I could imagine, I'm not saying that's the right one
[13:09] <seb128> it would be better if we could get that through apparmor prompting
[13:18] <ricotz> jbicha, hey :), thank you!
[17:17] <lissyx> :(
[17:17] <lissyx> https://github.com/lissyx/firefox-snap/actions/runs/2556748879
[17:17] <lissyx> looks like I'm  too limited on GitHub Actions


[23:36] <the-noob> there's smth very strange as I'm getting also a tooltip about running in rendering mode
[23:36] <the-noob> without hw acceleration
[23:37] <BlackFate> the-noob, strange... try sudo rfkill list
[23:37] <TheThreshold> guys anyone knows of an utility to mount a blu-ray iso in ubuntu? the ones i found mount it but than the folder looks empty
[23:37] <the-noob> still nothing
[23:37] <BlackFate> the-noob, what do you get?
[23:38] <the-noob> absolutely nothing, no output
[23:38] <BlackFate> the-noob, is there some kind of error when you ran that command?
[23:38] <the-noob> nope, just the next cursor line
[23:40] <nicomachus> the-noob: what's the output of "lsb_release -a" and "uname -r"?
[23:41] <the-noob> 14.04.3 LTS
[23:41] <the-noob> 3.13.0-71-generic
[23:42] <the-noob> ah, and on top 'No LSB modules are available'
[23:44] <nicomachus> and what did you upgrade to 14.04 from?
[23:46] <the-noob> I'm quite certain I had 14.04 from the start
[23:47] <the-noob> for sure not 13
[23:48] <boxmein> hey, what does a system upgrade change? eg if I wanted to go off 15.04 to 15.10, what do I have to backup?
[23:48] <boxmein> if I've modified X configs, pulseaudio configs, nginx configs, etc
[23:49] <nicomachus> the-noob: ok, well first try "sudo ifconfig wlan0 up"
[23:51] <the-noob> no wlan
[23:51] <the-noob> now I see ... ifconfig shows only lo ?
[23:52] <Azodon> kserv identify 127693abc
[23:52] <nicomachus> Azodon: change that password... to something better.
[23:54] <neredsenvy> Man nothing Linux is ever easy
[23:55] <slidinghorn> neredsenvy: they are with practice and details! :)  What's your problem?
[23:55] <JimmyNeutron> Thats what makes it so fun.
[23:55] <JimmyNeutron> I hate GUI. :)
[23:55] <neredsenvy> slidinghorn, Keep getting thrown into initramfs after install > boot
[23:56] <neredsenvy> I downloaded ubuntu iso again and made the usb stick with win32diskimager
[23:56] <k1l_> neredsenvy: more details will help to solve the issue
[23:57] <neredsenvy> k1l_, Finishing the install now will see if new usb 'burn' works
[23:57] <NoCode> Just installed Ubuntu Mate. Same issues with my GPUs. But it seems that I think it won't work because I have two GPUs. Onboard Intel, and nVidia. I looked into more while having MATE installed, it seems bumblebee does it, but I think it's only for Optimus(?) for hybrid use. So I haven't tried it.
[23:58] <NoCode> Another question: I want to configure @audio memlock, nice, and rtpio. But in 15.10, /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf does not exist. Where do I find it in Wily?
[23:58] <neredsenvy> moment of truth
[23:59] <neredsenvy> omg it works it works
[23:59] <neredsenvy> mother of god an easy ubuntu installation and it only took 3 tries xD


[04:00] <barry> #startmeeting
[04:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 05:01. The chair is barry.
[04:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[04:01] <barry> hi everybody and welcome to this week's asiapac reviewers meeting
[04:01] <barry> who's here today?
[04:01] <sinzui> me
[04:01] <thumper> me (kind of)
[04:01] <sinzui> Well this is looking embarrassing.
[04:01] <spiv> I'm here.
[04:01] <barry> sinzui: i was going to say, if it was just you and me, we should do it when the sun is up :)
[04:02] <jml> hi
[04:02] <barry> jml: hi
[04:02] <barry> spiv, thumper hi
[04:02] <barry> mwhudson: are you around?
[04:02] <jml> thumper is unwell and is off
[04:02] <barry> thumper: :(
[04:03] <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
[04:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[04:03] <jml> mwhudson last said "afk for a little while" 4 minutes ago
[04:03] <barry> jml: okay thanks, oh well
[04:03] <barry>  * Roll call
[04:03] <barry>  * Next meeting
[04:03] <barry>  * Action items
[04:03] <barry>  * Queue status
[04:03] <barry>  * Mentoring update
[04:03] <barry>  * Review process
[04:03] <barry>     * '''Pre-imp calls are falling by the wayside''' (gmb)
[04:03] <barry> [TOPIC] next meeting
[04:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
[04:03] <barry> so, is this a good time for y'all?
[04:03] <jml> for me, yes.
[04:04] <thumper> normally, but I'm somewhat uncommunicative right now
[04:04] <spiv> This is fine for me too (same timezone as jml).
[04:04] <barry> thumper: no worries.  anybody know if this is a good time for jamesh?
[04:04] <jml> but I'd be equally with something up to four hours earlier or two hours later, if things need rescheduling.
[04:04] <jml> barry: it's 11am in WA right now.
[04:04] <jml> barry: it *ought* to be a good time for him :)
[04:05] <barry> :)
[04:05] <jml> (the WA that's on the west coast of Australia, not the one on the west coast)
[04:05] <barry> jml, naw, i was thinking maybe 1 hour earlier, but this works just fine for me too.  in daylight saving's its 11pm, and i fake-tivo the daily show so it's all good
[04:06] <jml> :)
[04:06] <barry> cool, let's keep 0300utc then
[04:06] <jml> +1
[04:06] <barry> [TOPIC] action items
[04:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[04:06] <barry>  * (continued) thumper to report on pending-reviews killer in LP
[04:06] <thumper> barry: sorry, it's coming
[04:07] <thumper> but nothing else to report right now
[04:07] <barry> thumper: no worries, we'll just keep continuing it if you want
[04:07] <thumper> yeah
[04:07] <barry> thumper: just want to be sure you don't want to ditch the whole thing :)
[04:07] <barry> jamesh: hi!
[04:07] <jamesh> hi
[04:07] <thumper> barry: not just yet
[04:08] <lifeless> boo!
[04:08] <barry> cool
[04:08]  * barry is frightened
[04:08] <barry> just for completeness, here are the ameu action items:
[04:08] <barry>  * gmb to hack review-submit to enforce 800 line limit.
[04:08] <barry>  * schwuk to work with mwhudson to get instructions for running loggerhead onto the wiki
[04:09] <barry> any comments or should we just move on?
[04:09] <jml> barry: I don't think enforcing the 800 limit is a good idea.
[04:09] <jml> barry: unless that means "show a warning"
[04:09] <thumper> me neither
[04:09] <sinzui> jml: 800 + shame
[04:09] <barry> yeah, it's mostly so you have a warning
[04:10] <barry> i really think the option to override should be --isuck
[04:10] <lifeless> rather than say enforce
[04:10] <lifeless> say 'warn' perhaps ?
[04:10] <sinzui> jml: the 800 line flag really means you need to send with the -r switch (have a review lined up)
[04:10] <lifeless> if you mean warn :>
[04:10]  * barry speaks as someone who sucks often
[04:10] <jml> sinzui: perhaps.
[04:10] <barry> yes, the point is you really need to arrange things with a reviewer if your >800 lines
[04:11] <jml> I think that's fair enough. I still think you should be able to override whatever policy the tool has by default.
[04:11] <barry> i'm happy to reword this action item to be clearer about it, but i think gmb knows what we mean
[04:11] <barry> jml: definitely
[04:12] <jml> anyway, review-submit will be an addon to send eventually.
[04:12] <jml> barry: cool. now I know what gmb means, I'm happy :)
[04:12] <barry> cool!
[04:12] <barry> [TOPIC] queue status
[04:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  queue status
[04:13] <barry> some bonehead's got two branch's in the general queue
[04:13] <jml> :)
[04:13] <barry> :-D
[04:13] <jml> just to be clear
[04:13] <jml> are we supposed to send emails *and* hack wiki?
[04:14] <barry> jml: i don't know anymore.  i do, but that's just me
[04:14] <jml> hah!
[04:14] <jml> ok :)
[04:14] <barry> i fully intend to ask tomorrow's on-caller to review these branches though
[04:14] <lifeless> someone should patch submit-review to edit the wiki
[04:14] <jml> there's also at least one email sent that's not on the wiki page and has no assigned reviewer
[04:15] <jml> lifeless: yes. it's getting close to that already.
[04:15] <barry> jml: it's still the responsibility of the dev to get his branches reviewed
[04:15] <jml> *nod*
[04:15]  * barry still likes the pending-reviews page tho
[04:15] <barry> it tells me we have 5 pink branches
[04:16] <barry> i know about stub's two
[04:16] <barry> jml: what's up with your use-inmemory-proxies branch?
[04:16] <jml> barry: shelved, for the time being.
[04:16] <barry> jml: should we move that to wip?
[04:17] <jml> barry: yeah, probably.
[04:17] <barry> jml: i'll let you do that :)
[04:17] <jml> ok
[04:17] <barry> thanks
[04:17] <barry> any other queue-related comments?
[04:18] <jml> none from me
[04:18] <barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
[04:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
[04:18] <barry> i don't think there are any asiapac mentors or mentorees
[04:18] <barry> are there any of you guys who /aren't/ already reviewers?
[04:19] <sinzui> That was to requirement for mwhudson to emigrate.
[04:19] <jml> barry: all australasian LP hackers are reviewers
[04:19] <jml> we even have a non-LP hacker who's a reviewer :)
[04:20] <barry> jml: excellent!
[04:20] <jml> a veritable superabundance of reviewers.
[04:20] <barry> you need to hire more grunts
[04:20] <barry> [TOPIC] review process
[04:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  review process
[04:20] <barry>     * '''Pre-imp calls are falling by the wayside''' (gmb)
[04:21] <jml> What does that mean?
[04:21] <barry> people 'round here slacking on pre-impl calls
[04:21] <barry> have you noticed that? is it a problem? and if so what do we do about it?
[04:21] <barry> here's specifically what gmb says:
[04:21] <barry>  * '''Pre-imp calls are falling by the wayside''' (gmb). Since we've adopted the on-call review process I've noticed that less and less people (including myself) have been having pre-imp calls before they start work. Partly, I figure that this is because the on-call process allows the developer to talk about their implementation decisions with the reviewer and so helps to substitute for a pre-imp in a lot of ways. However, I've had one
[04:21] <barry>  branch land this cycle that happily had r= from the reviewer but which, had there been a pre-imp, might not have landed in the form it did (which would have avoided me needing to ask for an RC). Should we be enforcing the requirement to have pre-imp calls, or at least be more scrutinous of those branches that don't?
[04:22] <mwhudson> oopsie
[04:22] <jml> I've observed that people aren't rigorous about calling someone before they begin work on a branch.
[04:22] <jml> I don't think that's a problem.
[04:23] <jamesh> I think I've done only two pre-impl calls with people in the last month (and only one was actually voice)
[04:23] <barry> let me ask: how have the quality of branches been lately when first submitted for review?  has it been getting better, worse, or about the same?
[04:23] <jml> the way we'd measure it being a problem is if reviewers were asking for branches to be re-implemented :)
[04:24] <jml> barry: that's hard to discern. The code I get to review is generally very clear.
[04:24] <barry> i'm curious about the rate of needs-reply branches.
[04:24] <jml> the sample is limited, because we are increasing the size of the review team.
[04:24] <barry> jml: many of the branches i've reviewed lately have been merge-* right off the bat (i.e. very good quality)
[04:25] <mwhudson> something that's definitely happening is that i'm basically only reviewing things from the code team
[04:25] <jml> needs-reply doesn't always mean lower quality
[04:25] <mwhudson> and occasionally jamesh
[04:25] <barry> jml: no, you're right, but it's an indicator that the branch maybe wasn't quite ready to code yet
[04:25] <jml> I often flag things needs-reply because I don't understand a part of the problem domain.
[04:25] <barry> mwhudson: interesting
[04:26] <jml> yeah, I'd agree w/ mwhudson on that.
[04:26] <barry> is that basically geography?
[04:26] <jml> I also almost always get code or bzr ppl to do my pre-impl calls
[04:26] <jamesh> well, it isn't that surprising that NZ reviewers mainly have overlap with NZ and AU coders
[04:26] <mwhudson> indeed
[04:27] <barry> jamesh: yep
[04:27] <jamesh> for pre-implementation calls, it is even more of an issue
[04:27] <jamesh> since that's real time when reviewing might not be
[04:27] <barry> cool, so basically you don't feel that the current rate of pre-impl's is a problem?
[04:27] <jml> no :)
[04:28] <mwhudson> i don't know how much of a problem this is, it reduces the cross-team spread of knowledge a bit
[04:28] <mwhudson> barry: no
[04:28] <barry> mwhudson: good point.
[04:28] <jamesh> while there might not be as many formal pre-impl calls as there once were, people do consult others on IRC about implementation issues
[04:28] <jamesh> (at least in this time zone)
[04:29] <barry> if it's not a problem, i'm definitely not going to try to "fix" it then :)
[04:29] <barry> thanks, this has been good feedback
[04:29] <barry> so... that's it from me.  we have 15 minutes if anybody has anything not on the agenda, or messages to convey to ameu
[04:30]  * jml has nothing on topic
[04:30] <barry> cool.  time for the colbert report then :)
[04:30] <mwhudson> :)
[04:30] <barry> #endmeeting
[04:30] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 05:31.
[04:30] <barry> thanks everyone!  g'night :)
[04:31] <mwhudson> thanks barry
[04:31] <jml> thanks barry
[04:31] <mwhudson> (and sorry for being late)
[04:31] <barry> mwhudson: no worries.  talk to you guys soon...


[01:38] <dax> @comment 77473 repeated idling despite being told to cut it out, 30d
[10:18] <bazhang> want to load amdgpu at boot? is that even feasible
[10:18] <bazhang> ie before xorg, waylan or what have you
[11:42] <ReedK2> ikonia wanted me to file a complaint about himself for him.
[11:42] <ReedK2> He's upset because he lied to me about something and refused to be clear and then became so upset as to ban me.
[11:42] <ReedK2> I don't really care, but he insisted that I submit his complaint for him.
[11:43] <ReedK2> Have a nice day.  I have a lot of respect for all of you.  ikonia, I also respect.  I think you should not be bothered by his misdeed.  He has a grudge against me because I have exposed his ignorance a few times.
[11:43] <ReedK2> He isn't used to being wrong.
[11:45] <ReedK2> I'm sorry if this comes off as a waste of time.... ikonia always says everything is a waste of time.  But I try not to think that I'm pestering people when it appears they are only pestering themselves by insisting on doing something that is wrong.
[11:45] <ReedK2> Good people aren't pestered easily.
[11:45]  * ReedK2 idle 3 hours.
[11:49] <ikonia> ReedK2: please stop telling lies
[11:49] <ikonia> I've said nothing of the sort
[11:49] <ikonia> you can either a.) discuss your ban as I've invited you to do b.) leave
[11:49] <ikonia> pick
[11:49] <ReedK2> My assumption is that you banned me for other reasons because the reasons you gave don't follow logic.
[11:50] <ikonia> I've explained why I banned you
[11:50] <ReedK2> Nothing I've said is untrue.
[11:50] <ReedK2> Then you must have not been clear, ikonia.  You're serially unclear.
[11:50] <ikonia> I'll be happy to do so again if required
[11:50] <ikonia> would you like me to explain again ?
[11:50] <ReedK2> You mean you'd be happy to do so for the first time?
[11:50] <ikonia> "sure" if you want
[11:50] <ReedK2> I wonder if it will be different from before.  hmm.
[11:51] <ikonia> how can it be different from before - you've just said this is the first time ?
[11:51] <ReedK2> Let's say "the first time" if it makes sense, and "the second time" if it's illogical.
[11:51] <ikonia> ok - I'm not going to play these silly games
[11:51] <ikonia> I'll leave you to another operator
[11:51] <ReedK2> The silly came called logic. Hmm....
[11:51] <ikonia> the bottom line is you've only just been unbanned for not listening and being offtopic - you calmed down and we removed the ban
[11:51] <ReedK2> No wonder you don't get along with people.
[11:52] <ReedK2> Usually when someone is illogical, nobody gets along with them very well.
[11:52] <ReedK2> Logic is what societies use to prevent themselves from having long arguments.
[11:52] <ikonia> you've come in asking software development questions, where given help and pointed to the correct place to get help
[11:52] <ikonia> you then picked a fight saying I'd personally made up non-existant phrases liked "build enviornment"
[11:52] <ikonia> and then started calling me a liar
[11:52] <ikonia> I've banned you
[11:52] <ReedK2> ikonia, you told me to go "somewhere else"....
[11:52] <ikonia> you've since ranted in ##linux about this and #web as well as sending me a lot of personal abuse
[11:53] <ikonia> I'll leave you to discuss this with someone else
[11:53] <ReedK2> to discuss a word that you made up, which is a homonym and homograph for another word, apparently....
[11:53] <ReedK2> You sent me on a nonsense chore.
[11:54] <ReedK2> ikonia, do you feel abused?
[11:54] <ReedK2> Was it abusive to ask you to clarify what you were saying?
[11:54] <ikonia> no, you just sent me abusive messages
[11:54] <ReedK2> Or was it abusive to give you another person's definition (which you said was incorrect)?
[11:55] <ReedK2> Or my definition (which you said was incorrect)?
[11:55] <ikonia> I didn't say it was incorrect
[11:55] <ReedK2> Or to explain to you that I had searched the internet and only come up with fuzzy definitions (which you said was incorrect)?
[11:55] <ReedK2> Yes you did.
[11:55] <ikonia> I didn't say it was incorrect
[11:55] <ikonia> !logs
[11:55] <ReedK2> Back to the lies.
[11:55] <ikonia> I suggest you read the logs
[11:55] <ReedK2> Now who's playing a game?
[11:55] <ikonia> no-one
[11:56] <ReedK2> Did you say the definitions were correct?
[11:56] <ikonia> no
[11:56] <ReedK2> Did you say I didn't need to do the chore because I had the correct definition?
[11:56] <ReedK2> Or did you say: "That's not what it is?"
[11:56] <ikonia> I said none of that
[11:56] <ikonia> again, read the logs
[11:57] <ReedK2> ikonia, you know waht you said.
[11:57] <ReedK2> There's no need to get into logs.
[11:57] <ikonia> I do
[11:57] <ReedK2> Good.
[11:57] <ReedK2> Then we agree.
[11:57] <ikonia> thats why I said read the los
[11:57] <ikonia> logs
[11:57] <ReedK2> Why don't you paste the line you're referring to?
[11:57] <ikonia> what lines ?
[11:57] <ReedK2> Where you said that the definition was correct.
[11:57] <ikonia> I didn't say that either
[11:57] <ReedK2> Ohhhhh ohhhhh.  okay....
[11:58] <ReedK2> right, you banned me instead.
[11:58] <ReedK2> after re-stating your suggestion.
[11:58] <ikonia> ??
[11:58] <ReedK2> and yet somehow you want to twist that to not mean the definitions weren't correct and the chore wasn't unnecessary
[11:58] <ikonia> I'm really sorry, I don't actually know what you're talking about now
[11:59] <ikonia> honestly, I don't know what you're talking about
[11:59] <ReedK2> That's why I mention the logical flaw.
[11:59] <ReedK2> If I told you to go feed the dog...
[11:59] <ReedK2> And then you said: "The dog has already been fed."
[11:59] <ReedK2> And I said: "Go feed the dog."
[11:59] <ikonia> I don't know what you're talking about logical flaws or things like that
[11:59] <ReedK2> Then the logic suggests I don't believe the dog was fed.
[11:59] <ReedK2> And that your statement, "The dog has been fed," is either wrong or incomplete.
[11:59] <ikonia> I just told you - you need to get basic development help and understand your build environment
[11:59] <ReedK2> what's a build environment
[12:00]  * ReedK2 braces himself to be banned
[12:00] <ReedK2> I should leave so I don't get banned.
[12:00] <ikonia> a build environment is the setup that you use to build your software
[12:00] <ikonia> as explained to you
[12:00] <ikonia> it's personal to you
[12:00] <ReedK2> I told you: "I'm LEARNING c, gtk, and bash."
[12:00] <ikonia> yes, they are programming languages and a shell script
[12:00] <ReedK2> I can't fast-forward learning, ikonia .
[12:01] <ikonia> they are not a build environment
[12:01] <ReedK2> YOu want to ban me from #ubuntu because I'm learning.
[12:01] <ReedK2> And because I'm a beginner.
[12:01] <ikonia> no-one expects you to, this is why I told you to get basic development help and understand your build environment
[12:01] <ikonia> because you are learning
[12:01] <ReedK2> You dno't want me to come back until after I've learned for another year or several years
[12:01] <ikonia> no, I don't want you to use #ubuntu for programming help
[12:01] <ReedK2> "go learn about your build environment.  don't ask here."
[12:01] <ikonia> which is why I told you to join a programming/development channel
[12:01] <ReedK2> I just asked if anyone had used gtk....
[12:02] <ikonia> no you didn't
[12:02] <ReedK2> yeah i did
[12:02] <ReedK2> that's when you started attacking me with your troll bans
[12:02] <ikonia> you asked for help compiling gtk software because of missing header
[12:02] <ReedK2> "I have to find a reason to ban this guy."
[12:02] <ikonia> and didn't understand (which is fine) that #include is not a file path
[12:02] <ReedK2> 11 hours, I was at #ubuntu, everyone was having fun...
[12:02] <ReedK2> everyone was enjoying each other, having friendly chat...
[12:02] <ikonia> hence why I requested you join a software development channel
[12:02] <ReedK2> you come online... 5 minutes you want to ban
[12:02] <ReedK2> you're sadistic.
[12:03] <ReedK2> all i did was ask you to clarify
[12:03] <ikonia> ReedK2: I'd been online for many hours, just not talking, I only started talking when you started referencing software development help
[12:03] <ReedK2> if you had a problem with me asking about gtk, then you would have banned me back then.
[12:03] <ReedK2> you had a problem with me exposing you
[12:03] <ikonia> to which I helped you, advised you and requested you join the right channel
[12:03] <ReedK2> oh, yeh.  okay.  i concede.  YOu're SO helpful, man.
[12:03] <ikonia> this is the attitude that causes a problem
[12:03] <ReedK2> SO helpful that you refuse to be clear, and you indirectly call correct definitions incorrect.
[12:04] <ikonia> please re-read the logs,
[12:04] <ReedK2> ikonia, seriously, I concede.
[12:04] <ReedK2> I'm doing my best to just accept your world view....
[12:04] <ReedK2> YOu're extremely helpful.  thank you for referring me to "some other place"
[12:04] <ReedK2> thank you for banning me, man.  nothing could have been more helpful
[12:04] <ReedK2> okay, so now it's my attitude?   I'm going to get a dog trainer to my house, and I'm going to ask if he can work with humans, too.  I can get an attitude adjustment.
[12:05] <ReedK2> The world's a silly place.  Maybe a little levity will make it easier to chat.
[12:05] <ikonia> like when you where sending me messages about "I'm your father figure" and all this after saying "fuck off" to me - or words to that effect
[12:05] <ikonia> so I'm not really interested
[12:05] <ReedK2> that's incorrect.  i was quoting you.
[12:06] <ReedK2> I said: "I respect you very much because you have a lot of wisdom.  You're like a father figure to me.
[12:06] <ReedK2> Probably English is your second language, and that's where all the miscommunications come from.
[12:06] <ikonia> English is my first language
[12:06] <ReedK2> It's very possible that you don't even know what you're implying.
[12:06] <ikonia> hence why I understood the context you where giving to me
[12:06] <ReedK2> Well, a lot of Native English speakers aren't very good at English.  I think the average reading level is 8th grade in the US.
[12:07] <ikonia> well as you told me, while I'm in a channel with you, I'll never be the smartest person in the channel
[12:07] <ReedK2> Usually, people who are very good at English are also very clear and concise and don't use a lot of needless phrases.
[12:07] <ikonia> I'm not really interesteed in your English language dicussion to be honest
[12:07] <ikonia> I'm just interested in your behaviour in #ubuntu
[12:07] <ReedK2> That's because I ask multiple sources, ikonia....
[12:08] <ReedK2> I don't just believe whatever I'm told.
[12:08] <ReedK2> So if you lie to me, I might find out by fact checking.
[12:08] <ikonia> and as you've told me you're not interested / bothered about being in #ubuntu any more
[12:08] <ikonia> so I'm not sure what oyu actually want
[12:08] <ikonia> other than to cause yet another re-play of this whole discussion after you've done it on other channels already
[12:08] <ReedK2> ikonia, you asked me to file a complaint about you for you.  Your behavior is the issue.
[12:08] <ikonia> no I didn't
[12:08] <ikonia> I told you this is the channel to come to if you wanted to discuss your ban
[12:08] <ReedK2> "if you want to complain, you can do it at #ubuntu-ops"
[12:09] <ReedK2> well, I think you said a lot of stuff while you were mad and forgot.
[12:09] <ikonia> yes, after you've been complaining in the ##linux and #web channels about it
[12:09] <ikonia> !complaint | ReedK2
[12:09] <ikonia> !appeal | ReedK2
[12:09] <ikonia> sorry - wrong bot factoid
[12:09] <ReedK2> ikonia, I complained about the ubuntu community, not about you specifically.
[12:09] <ReedK2> At #linux
[12:10] <ReedK2> then you came in and said: "Hey!  Don't talk about me."
[12:10] <ikonia> ReedK2: you didn't you referenced me spefcially
[12:10] <ReedK2> And in #web, they asked why I asked what a build environment was...
[12:10] <ikonia> I really don't want to go over this again, as it's just getting petty
[12:10] <ReedK2> and I said: "Because I wanted to verify that I was lied to."
[12:10] <ikonia> ReedK2: no - you asked while complainign you'd been banned
[12:10] <ReedK2> and then you went guerilla-balls in that channel, too.
[12:10] <ReedK2> i asked before being banned adn posted the quote with #web attached in your "logs"
[12:11] <ikonia> ReedK2: no I didn't
[12:11] <ReedK2> and you said their definition was not correct.
[12:11] <ikonia> this is pointless
[12:11] <ReedK2> I didn't bring your name up, ikonia.  I just answerd their question
[12:11] <ikonia> either follow the appeals process,or don't
[12:11] <ReedK2> I feel you lied to me.
[12:11] <ReedK2> Several times.
[12:11] <ikonia> ReedK2: you didn't bring up me name but you said "the operator who banned me"
[12:11] <ReedK2> You could have validated what I was saying....
[12:11] <ikonia> enough
[12:11] <ikonia> this is a waste of time
[12:12] <ReedK2> But instead you chose to insist that I do an inane chore.
[12:12] <ikonia> follow the appeals process, this conversation shows how much of a waste of time it is
[12:12] <ReedK2> And when I followed your inane chore, you got mad.
[12:12] <ikonia> if another operator wants to pick it up with you, they can do so, I'd give it 15 minutes to see if they do, if not follow the appeals process
[12:12] <ReedK2> Yeah, it's a waste of time because you're very insistent....
[12:12] <ReedK2> You should try saying this: "You're right, ReedK2."
[12:12] <ReedK2> Not because you believe it, but as a hypothetical process.
[12:12] <ReedK2> To help you think.
[12:13] <ReedK2> ikonia, because you're an op at #ubuntu, and you have harassed me several times....
[12:13] <ReedK2> And also because I'm not banned right now....
[12:13] <ReedK2> There's no point in appealing.
[12:13] <ikonia> you are banned
[12:13] <ReedK2> well, there's still no point for the first reason
[12:13] <ReedK2> i can't get angry, and you are malicious
[12:14] <ReedK2> malicious people make others angry.
[12:14] <ReedK2> even if i get unbanned, you'll repeat the abusive behavior
[12:14] <ikonia> I don't know what you're talking about, please discuss it with one of the other operator teams members
[12:14] <ReedK2> and that's not healthy.
[12:14] <ReedK2> i'm talking about giving me a senseless chore
[12:14] <ReedK2> then adulterating my education with lies
[12:14] <ReedK2> then yelling at me in 2 other channels and in private chat
[12:14] <ikonia> I gave you no chore, and no lies
[12:14] <ReedK2> when you're an op. you're supposed to be someone people respect.
[12:15] <ReedK2> you're supposed to be an example
[12:15] <ReedK2> this isn't an example of mature behavior, man.
[12:15] <ikonia> I've not yelled at you anywhere, I've told you to join #ubuntu-ops to discuss your ban not use the other channels as a ranting place
[12:15] <ikonia> I've got the conversations logged if you want
[12:15] <ReedK2> that ban?  it was stupid and senseless
[12:15] <ReedK2> it's a last resort
[12:15] <ReedK2> you should ban people when you have no other options
[12:15] <ReedK2> you could have been clear.
[12:15] <ikonia> please discuss the ban with another operator, and I'll make the logs public to them too
[12:15] <ReedK2> you could have validated me.
[12:15] <ReedK2> you could have tried to be a little nicer
[12:15] <ReedK2> you could have done a lot of thigns.
[12:15] <ReedK2> but you wanted to do something illogical
[12:15] <ikonia> ReedK2: to be clear - I'll not discuss this any more with you
[12:16] <ReedK2> unreasonable
[12:16] <ReedK2> yeah i know, run away
[12:16] <ReedK2> like always
[12:16] <ReedK2> do something bad, run away, try to convince yourself it was right
[12:16] <ReedK2> dude you were wrong
[12:16] <ikonia> I'll leave it 15 minutes for you to engage with another operator, if not, I'll remove you from the channel inline with our noidle policy
[12:16] <ReedK2> it's not a big deal to admit you were wrong
[12:16] <ikonia> you are welcome to follow the appeals process I gave you earlier
[12:16] <ReedK2> i can admit i was wrong
[12:16] <ReedK2> look
[12:16] <ReedK2> I WAS WRONG!!!!
[12:16] <ReedK2> see?
[12:16] <ReedK2> no big deal
[12:16] <ikonia> @mark ReedK2 #ubuntu-ops 15 minute marker to engage with operator team
[12:17] <ikonia> @mark #ubuntu-ops reedk2  15 minute marker to engage with operator team
[12:17] <ReedK2> my turtle died when I was 12 because I didn't get to the pet store fast enough
[12:17] <ReedK2> I WAS WRONG!
[12:17] <ReedK2> happy?
[12:17] <ReedK2> your turn.
[12:17] <ReedK2> you lied about a definition more than 3 times
[12:17] <ReedK2> then you banned someone because you didn't want to correct yourself
[12:17] <ReedK2> and then you went and did personal attacks to that person, who hadn't said your name, on two other venues.
[12:17] <ReedK2> you were wrong.
[12:17] <ReedK2> simple
[12:18] <ReedK2> I didn't even anticipate the ban, bro.  Completely shocked.
[12:18] <ReedK2> just typical angry ikonia being way over-the-top with authority.
[12:19] <ReedK2> Let me explain how things usually work on IRC, ikonia ....  First of all, people look for the info using a search engine; however, some channels don't require that step because some users can't access search engines...
[12:19] <ReedK2> At that stage, people also look in reference manuals, talk to their teachers, go to other resources as much as possible....
[12:19] <ReedK2> then they put a question up like: "What's a build environment, since you brought it up?"
[12:20] <ReedK2> At that stage, either the question is ignored, or it's picked up.
[12:20] <ReedK2> You picked up the thread, probably because you started it....
[12:20] <ikonia> ReedK2: I've muted you - either a.) engage with another operator in the channel without a monologue b.) leave the channel and continue about your day c.) follow the appeals process
[12:21] <ikonia> I'll remove the mute in a moment
[12:21] <ikonia> then you can decide which option you wish to follow
[12:21] <ikonia> mute removed
[12:21] <ReedK2> ikonia, I spent 20 minutes doing what you asked....
[12:22] <ReedK2> Nobody cares.  you're the only op at #ubuntu.
[12:22] <ReedK2> probably they're all avoiding you
[12:22] <ikonia> @mark #ubuntu-ops ReedK2 while playing the -ops game is sending me pm's calling me a coward and other things
[12:22] <ikonia> ReedK2: please pick your option - no more discussion
[12:22] <ReedK2> you're really a frustrating, annoying person.  you get carried away with authority