[02:34] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[02:34] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 15 Aug 02:00: Community Council | 16 Aug 06:00: Technical Board | 17 Aug 06:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[02:34] <Hobbsee> 3 and a half hours.  hmmm.
[02:35] <zul> @schedule montreal
[02:35] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 14 Aug 12:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 16:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 08:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[02:48] <licio> @schedule brazil
[02:49] <licio> @schedule Sao_Paulo
[02:49] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 14 Aug 13:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 17:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 17:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 09:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[02:49] <licio> \o/
[03:34] <poningru> @schedule tampa
[03:34] <poningru> @schedule miami
[03:34] <poningru> @schedule Atlanta
[03:34] <poningru> ...
[03:34] <zul> try new york
[03:34] <poningru> @schedule New York
[03:34] <poningru> true
[03:34] <poningru> rofl
[03:35] <poningru> @schedule New York City
[03:36] <licio> http://bugbot.ubuntulinux.nl/timezones.html
[03:37] <poningru> @schedule Eastern
[03:37] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Canada/Eastern: 14 Aug 12:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 16:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 08:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[03:37] <licio> \o/
[03:37] <poningru> still lame ...
[03:37] <poningru> I mean no Miami?? no Atlanta??
[04:05] <cbx33> @schedule
[04:05] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Aug 16:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 20:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[05:02] <cbx33> @schedule
[05:02] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Aug 16:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 20:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[05:08] <ogra> cbx33, and ? did it change in the last hour ?  :)
[05:08] <cbx33> heh, i got timezone confusion sickness
[05:09] <ogra> :)
[05:09] <cbx33> thought the meeting was now
[05:09] <ogra> 1h
[05:09] <cbx33> yes I can see that
[05:09] <cbx33> making me out to look stupid :p
[05:10] <Seveas> cbx33, try @now
[05:10] <Seveas> @now
[05:10] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: August 14 2006, 15:10:32 - Next meeting: Community Council in 49 minutes
[05:10] <cbx33> @now
[05:10] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: August 14 2006, 15:10:38 - Next meeting: Community Council in 49 minutes
[05:10] <cbx33> thank you Seveas
[05:12] <nalioth> cbx33: you can also click on the meeting time at wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[05:31] <matthewrevell> @now
[05:31] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: August 14 2006, 15:31:56 - Next meeting: Community Council in 28 minutes
[05:44] <licio> segfault, hi dude
[05:44] <Meyer> :P
[05:48] <segfault> meyer: hello!
[05:49] <licio> :(
[05:49] <licio> @schedule Sao_Paulo
[05:49] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 14 Aug 13:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 17:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 17:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 09:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[05:59] <Seveas> hrm... editing the CC agenda caused X to chew much cpu power..
[06:01] <cbx33> hi fschoep
[06:01] <fschoep> Hello Pete.
[06:02] <fschoep> Has the meeting started yet?
[06:02] <jenda> nope
[06:02] <tseliot> let's wait
[06:03] <Seveas> mako, elmo: who will be joining us today? sabdfl or kamion?
[06:03] <mako> i hope so
[06:04] <elmo> sabdfl should be
[06:04] <ubuntu_demon> hi all
[06:04] <elmo> kamion won't, he's on holiday
[06:04] <tseliot> hi
[06:04] <gnomefreak> isnt Kamion still on vacation?
[06:04] <fschoep> I think he is, yes.
[06:04] <Seveas> yeah, that would make it hard for him to join ;)
[06:04] <ubuntu_demon> How's everyone doing ? :)
[06:04] <ompaul> Seveas, ssh is your friend
[06:04] <Seveas> ompaul, I wouldn't be joining on a holiday, ssh or not
[06:05] <segfault> licio: hi
[06:05] <elmo> sabdfl is trying to join but having network problems
[06:06] <ogra> Seveas, Kamion is gone to some irish island where even phone lines are rare ...he wont e able to join, even if he wanted ;)
[06:07] <cbx33> hahah
[06:07] <gnomefreak> now thats getting away
[06:08] <cbx33> I don;t think I could be without the net
[06:08] <Seveas> kirjanov, matthewrevell, carthik, lloydinho, svaksha, tseliot: please prepare your 3-line intro so you can paste it when requested
[06:08] <ompaul> ogra, there is more than one such island, however one of them got wireless broadband a month ago :) it was close enough to land for line of sight to work :)
[06:08] <carthik> sure Seveas
[06:08] <matthewrevell> Seveas: Ready to go :)
[06:08] <ogra> ompaul, i dounbt he has any computers with him ;)
[06:08] <ogra> *doubt
[06:09] <lfittl> Seveas: what about the people that have not yet been approved/declined by mako? should they also prepare their intro again?
[06:09] <Seveas> lfittl, good question -- I'll leave it up to mako to answer it ;)
[06:09] <mako> sabdfl: welcome
[06:09] <Seveas> hi sabdfl !
[06:09] <mako> lfittl: you've already been approved in launchpad
[06:09] <ubuntu_demon> Hi sabdfl
[06:09] <gnomefreak> hi sabdfl
[06:09] <mako> lfittl: sorry for not sending an email
[06:09] <tseliot> welcome
[06:09] <lfittl> mako: oh, thanks :)
[06:10] <OgMaciel> congrats lfittl ;)
[06:10] <jenda> congrats, lfittl ;)
[06:10] <jenda> gah :-D
[06:10] <gnomefreak> congrats lfittl
[06:10] <lfittl> thanks :D
[06:10] <Seveas> mako, heh, you must have done that in the last 10 minutes, I just checked them ;)
[06:10] <bddebian> lfittl!!  You are hiding from me? ;-)
[06:10] <lfittl> bddebian: no, just had a lot to do ;)
[06:10] <mako> i wanted to talk to sharms about one thing before i noted it in launchpad but everyone else has been noted
[06:11] <gnomefreak> i havent seen sharms around since the issue
[06:12] <sabdfl> hi all
[06:12] <sabdfl> sorry, horrible connection here
[06:12] <AndreNoel> hi
[06:12] <bddebian> Hello sabdfl
[06:12] <matthewrevell> sabdfl: hi
[06:12] <fschoep> Hi Mark.
[06:12] <tseliot> hi
[06:12] <jenda> Hello sabdfl. So... will we start?
[06:12] <sabdfl> apologies for being late
[06:13] <ubuntu_demon> hi
[06:13] <svaksha> sabdfl: hi
[06:13] <sabdfl> and i'm likely to drop off unexpectedly, if i go quiet, that's what's potting
[06:13] <byen> hello sabdfl .. and hello everyone
[06:13] <sabdfl> who's here from the CC?
[06:13] <Seveas> sabdfl, fschoep is on a time limit -- it may be useful to start with his agenda item
[06:13] <Seveas> sabdfl, elmo, mako and yourself
[06:13] <fschoep> Seveas: only if it's appropriate
[06:14] <sabdfl> i also can't see https pages (ff2 bug:-)) so... what's on the agenda?
[06:14] <sabdfl> mako, will you lead since i'm on the end of a damp straw?
[06:14] <ompaul> sabdfl, msg me I'll paste it back to you
[06:14] <mako> yes, taht's fine
[06:14] <Seveas> sabdfl, http://wiki.kaarsemaker.net/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[06:15] <mako> alright, it's fine with me if we start with the artwork items
[06:15] <Seveas> I quickly c-p'ed it to an non-https wiki
[06:15] <ubuntu_demon> That's quick ;)
[06:15] <mako> fschoep: go ahead
[06:15] <fschoep> OK, so basically I need your thoughts on the direction I drafted on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Propose/Results
[06:16] <jono> sorry got stuck in a meeting
[06:16] <fschoep> If there are volunteers to take a look and comment what's on there, that would be awesome.
[06:16] <Seveas> hi jono, no sweat we just started with the artwork item on the agenda
[06:16] <fschoep> Then we've got cbx33 who's doing a good job on coming up with new soundscapes for Ubuntu sounds.
[06:16] <cbx33> Seveas, can i use that wiki to paste my UbuntuSounds page?
[06:16] <jono> I only have ten mins then I need to run
[06:17] <Seveas> cbx33, sure
[06:17] <fschoep> He posted examples and ideas on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuSounds, I'd like to ask if someone could post feedback on that, too.
[06:17] <cbx33> http://wiki.kaarsemaker.net/UbuntuSounds - for sabdfl
[06:17] <Seveas> fschoep, usplash may need to display text (fsck progress)
[06:17] <mako> fschoep: ok, looks great.. what in particular sort of feedback are you looking for?
[06:18] <fschoep> Well, kind of looking for approval from "higher up" so we don't need to revert decisions later on.
[06:18] <fschoep> If there's anything that looks out-of-line with Ubuntu I'd rather hear it now.
[06:19] <gnomefreak> i thought we were working on getting away from the brown for edgy?
[06:19] <cbx33> mako, if any of the sounds presented are along the right lines, I can refine and start to create the other sounds needed?
[06:19] <fschoep> On the sounds, it'd be nice if some volunteers could listen to cbx33's work and comment on the level of professionalism and direction of the samples.
[06:19] <ompaul> cbx33, is there a technical reason not to port and use those sounds as ogg?
[06:19] <cbx33> ompaul, there is a historical reason
[06:19] <ubuntu_demon> regarding the sound : I haven't listened to the samples yet but I like the drums you hear in the login screen we have currently
[06:19] <mako> the circles concept is intriguing and seems ambitious.. seems like it would be very cool if it can, as the page says, live up to expectations
[06:20] <LaserJock> cbx33: doh
[06:20] <cbx33> I can produce oggs if required
[06:20] <cbx33> you'd better hide LaserJock
[06:20] <ompaul> cbx33, fair enough
[06:20] <fschoep> mako: thanks, I hope we can have some concrete work to show off soon.
[06:20] <sabdfl> gnomefreak: human stays the default theme, but we have different teams working on alternate themes
[06:21] <fschoep> gnomefreak: long story, for now we're still using brown, I hope that doesn't disappoint you.
[06:21] <sabdfl> the best, if they are professional, will be included as alternates
[06:21] <gnomefreak> fschoep: no not at all
[06:21] <sabdfl> and in time, they may become the default, replacing Human
[06:21] <fschoep> Also, as Mark states, we've got Theme Teams working on different ideas.
[06:21] <jono> fschoep, can I sugges the bootup sound is shorter, when compared to windows, it drags on a little
[06:21] <AndreNoel> fschoep: i like brown
[06:21] <cbx33> jono, it was suggested it lasted the entire gnome startup....as a way to make us more distinctive to win/mac?
[06:21] <fschoep> jono: sounds fair, what length are you thinking of?
[06:21] <sabdfl> fschoep: can you tell us how the teamwork is... working?
[06:21] <cbx33> but I'm open to suggestions
[06:22] <sabdfl> CC is mostly interested in having a strong and constructive community
[06:22] <fschoep> sabdfl: the teamwork withing the art-team or the separate Theme Teams?
[06:22] <sabdfl> anything you need in terms of help on that front?
[06:22] <sabdfl> fschoep: both
[06:22] <jono> fschoep, something a little snappier, ~5 - 7 secs I was thinking
[06:22] <sabdfl> we agreed a structure in Paris, is that working out OK?
[06:22] <sabdfl> i know the CC needs to appoint the arts-council
[06:22] <tseliot> about the sounds: I like sample 4
[06:22] <fschoep> Right now I'd need some kind of official approval to start producing in the direction drafted.
[06:22] <mako> jono: agreed
[06:23] <mako> jono: about the length of the sound
[06:23] <cbx33> mako, jono, noted !
[06:23] <jono> I would be interested to sit down with the sounds team to have a discussion about it
[06:23] <fschoep> The Theme Teams are all one-man armies right now, but they're managing fine. We could use some tutorials on Metacity and GTk themeing though.
[06:23] <fschoep> The art team has been working very focused the past months and once we get an official stamp I'm sure we'll produce some amazing artwork.
[06:24] <ogra> fschoep, i recently gave someone from your team a link to a meatcity howto
[06:24] <jono> it would be good to look at ways to collaborate at a theme level as well as an artistic level
[06:24] <ompaul> cbx33,  they seem to have a very sharp ending as if they were cut off in their prime, I am no musician but I know I would rather more fade out :)
[06:24] <fschoep> ogra: sounds good, could you send it to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>as well perhaps :) ?
[06:24] <ogra> fschoep, for your link collection: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/metacity/metacity-themes.html
[06:24] <ogra> ;)
[06:24] <Seveas> fschoep, I am amazed at the rate of professionalization the art team showed over the past months
[06:24] <cbx33> ompaul, noted !
[06:25] <fschoep> Seveas: thanks. We kind of grinded to a halt a week ago because I'm the bottleneck right now.
[06:25] <sabdfl> yes, very much thanks to troy_s and fschoep
[06:25] <mako> fschoep: WRT the artwork, so my own only concern is that all the curves and circles in the context of a much glossier team has a very different meaning
[06:25] <jono> right, sorry guys, I have to run to another OpenAdvantage meeting
[06:25] <Seveas> ciao jono
[06:25] <sabdfl> cheers jono
[06:25] <fschoep> jono: see you!
[06:25] <jono> do get in touch with me if I can help with anything in the interim, I will be back later
[06:26] <mako> fschoep: it starts seeming more about aerodynamic machines, speed, etc than about humans and accessibility
[06:26] <fschoep> It does? I didn't look at it that way.
[06:26] <fschoep> Maybe I'm not following you?
[06:26] <mako> just my $0.02
[06:27] <ubuntu_demon> Okay I listened to them all. I liked the last one best. IMHO it should be a little more african and a little less christmasy
[06:27] <fschoep> I'm interested in discussing that, shall we do that via e-mail later on?
[06:27] <fschoep> ubuntu_demon: can you Wiki your comments?
[06:27] <ubuntu_demon> that last comment was regarding the sound samples
[06:27] <ubuntu_demon> fschoep: I will
[06:27] <fschoep> Thanks!
[06:27] <ubuntu_demon> fschoep: no problem :)
[06:27] <cbx33> sabdfl, a mail would be cool -<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:28] <mako> sabdfl: yikes :)
[06:28] <fschoep> Also, would the technical board meeting be a good place to discuss these matters, too?
[06:28] <sabdfl> but great to have someone tackling sound too
[06:28] <cbx33> sabdfl, did you get my http version?
[06:28] <cbx33> http://wiki.kaarsemaker.net/UbuntuSounds
[06:28] <mako> i haven't listened to enough of the sounds to have formed a real opinion
[06:29] <mako> fschoep: but the work looks great
[06:29] <fschoep> mako: Thanks again :)
[06:29] <gnomefreak> firefox crashes here upon clicking the sound files
[06:29] <mako> fschoep: i'd say that the more people you can show this to before the fact, the better
[06:29] <fschoep> Indeed, that's basically why you're seeing me here right now.
[06:29] <mako> fschoep: although keep in mind that not everybody will or needs to love it
[06:29] <KenSentMe> gnomefreak: lol, here also
[06:29] <sabdfl> ok, let's keep goin. thanks fschoep, for the update and the great work
[06:30] <ubuntu_demon> fschoep maybe get some forum input ? I can set up a sticky or something
[06:30] <mako> ubuntu_demon: yes, that might be a great idea
[06:30] <fschoep> ubuntu_demon: can you do that over a short period of time? Like the coming three days?
[06:30] <ubuntu_demon> fschoep: ofcourse
[06:30] <fschoep> Good idea I reckon.
[06:30] <sabdfl> i'm going to quit here and try to get to a better connection
[06:30] <sabdfl> sorry folks
[06:30] <ubuntu_demon> fschoep: will discuss the details later
[06:30] <fschoep> sabdfl: thanks
[06:30] <cbx33> thanks sabdfl
[06:30] <Seveas> sabdfl, good luck!
[06:30] <ubuntu_demon> hope you make it back sabdfl
[06:31] <mako> ok
[06:31] <mako> well lets handle other issues
[06:31] <Seveas> In the mean time we can do locoteams
[06:31] <mako> that's right
[06:31] <fschoep> Thanks for your time everyone, I think I'll be going now (can use all the time right now).
[06:31] <mako> we still have a number of general agenda items as well
[06:31] <mako> and should probably try to pick up the pace a little bit
[06:31] <mako> because the agenda is long
[06:32] <Seveas> yeah, but irc was postponed especially to hear sabdfls opinion
[06:32] <mako> is mahangu here?
[06:32] <Seveas> no
[06:32] <mako> ok..
[06:32] <Seveas> his other nickname, lastnode is missing too
[06:32] <mako> sriramadas?
[06:32] <Seveas> amachu
[06:32] <Seveas> nope, nothing from /whois
[06:33] <mako> moving on
[06:33] <mako> russell john?
[06:33] <Seveas> ekushey
[06:33] <Seveas> neither
[06:33] <Seveas> Ivan Cherevko?
[06:33] <mako> man :)
[06:34] <Seveas> ronald odero?
[06:34] <mako> at this rate, maybe the agenda isn't so long
[06:34] <OgMaciel> hehe
[06:34] <Seveas> yeah, we just went thtough all locos
[06:34] <gnomefreak> try who is here?
[06:34] <mako> is there anyone from a new, un-introduced loco team?
[06:34] <mako> on or off the agenda?
[06:34] <mako> alright then
[06:34] <ompaul> there is this country but I am still working on it
[06:35] <Seveas> that leaves translation coordinator and kubuntu coordinator
[06:35] <mako> right
[06:35] <mako> OgMaciel: want to go?
[06:35] <OgMaciel> mako, sure
[06:35] <mako> oh wait
[06:35] <mako> who proposed this?
[06:35] <OgMaciel> hehe
[06:35] <Riddell> carlos?
[06:36] <carlos> hi
[06:36] <elmo> sabdfl did
[06:36] <mako> carlos: hey there
[06:36] <elmo> according to the history
[06:36] <Riddell> carlos: know anything about "Localisation / Translation Team Leader"?
[06:36] <mako> carlos: can you give you background about the "Localisation / Translation Team Leader" position?
[06:37] <carlos> I think Daf had that position
[06:37] <carlos> and I'm not quite sure whether I should take that role now
[06:38] <carlos> I think we should take someone from the community
[06:38] <mako> ok, can you can describe what is involved with the position?
[06:38] <carlos> because daf hadn't enough time to attend that position and I don't think that either danilo or I will have enough time either
[06:38] <OgMaciel> mako, +1
[06:39] <carlos> well, I think his main position atm would be to help us to coordinate with all teams to improve the QA problems we have atm
[06:40] <Seveas> that would rock
[06:40] <carlos> that's the most common problem we get from upstream related with Ubuntu translations
[06:40] <LaserJock> would this be something that maybe the new Ubuntu Community Manager could coordinate?
[06:40] <LaserJock> getting the person I mean
[06:40] <carlos> it's a matter of improving Rosetta
[06:40] <carlos> in one side
[06:41] <carlos> and teach our translators also to use the infrastructure
[06:41] <danilos> hi carlos
[06:41] <mako> alright
[06:41] <danilos> hey mako
[06:41] <mako> danilos: hey there
[06:42] <mako> there is only one person that has volunteered so far
[06:42] <mako> but there seems to many things still up in the air
[06:42] <carlos> danilos: hi, we are talking about the "Localisation / Translation Team Leader" position for Ubuntu
[06:42] <carlos> mako: he should have a bit of experience as translator
[06:43] <mako> perhaps the best thing we can do is explain what someone who was interested in this would do, and who they would talk to find out more
[06:43] <OgMaciel> mako, +1
[06:43] <carlos> mako: I guess danilo and I could help there
[06:44] <danilos> carlos: ah, ok, I'd be glad to help with the choice and describing what should one usually do
[06:44] <carlos> also to know at least if we believe that he/she has enough knowledge about the problems related to l10n/i18n
[06:44] <carlos> mako: also, danilos shares that position in GNOME project
[06:44] <danilos> yeah, I'm sure I can give a couple of hints here and there
[06:45] <Seveas> danilos, carlos: then maybe it would be useful if you add a short 'job description' to the wiki page
[06:45] <danilos> now, do you already have a set of desired "tasks" for such a person?
[06:45] <AndreNoel> Seveas: +1
[06:45] <OgMaciel> mako, want to skip the topic and continue, since there's a lot of things up for grabs?
[06:45] <danilos> what's the wiki page?
[06:46] <OgMaciel> mako, we could come back later
[06:46] <Seveas> danilos, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[06:46] <mako> alright then
[06:46] <mako> i'm not sure this belongs on the CC agenda
[06:46] <mako> if sabdfl feels strongly that it does, i'd love to hear why
[06:46] <mako> in any case
[06:46] <Seveas> it's a start -- we could easily put it somewhere else
[06:46] <mako> right
[06:46] <carlos> Seveas: ok. We will try to have a meeting this week about that and prepare something
[06:46] <carlos> danilos: is that ok for you?
[06:46] <mako> danilos, carlos: thanks for filling in the blanks
[06:47] <mako> OgMaciel: and thanks for volunteering
[06:47] <danilos> carlos: sure, sounds fine
[06:47] <mako> what about the kubuntu community coordinator?
[06:47] <carlos> mako: you are welcome
[06:47] <OgMaciel> mako, my pleasure... and am still extremelly interested
[06:47] <Riddell> mako: that's my item
[06:47] <mako> danilos, OgMaciel: you two should probably coordinate
[06:47] <OgMaciel> mako, will do
[06:47] <mako> Riddell: run with it :)
[06:47] <AndreNoel> Og is doing a very great work at Ubuntu Brazilian Portuguese Translators
[06:47] <Seveas> Riddell, care to elaborate a bit? Wouldn't it be part of Jono's job?
[06:47] <danilos> mako: np, OgMaciel, feel free to ping me on IRC as "danilos" whenever you wish
[06:48] <OgMaciel> danilos, how about now? ;)
[06:48] <OgMaciel> thanks AndreNoel ;)
[06:48] <Riddell> mako: myself and the kubuntu developers want to entitle Hobssee as Kubuntu Community Coordinator...
[06:48] <Riddell> she has a lot of ideas and is doing a good amount of organising and bringing people into kubuntu so we want to empower her to do that more
[06:48] <danilos> OgMaciel: well, if it's not for too long, and I'd like to think about all of that first (they just got me into it, and I haven't even read the wiki page): sometimes during the week sounds better
[06:48] <elmo> Riddell: "empower" how?
[06:49] <Riddell> it's not paticularly related to jono
[06:49] <elmo> Riddell: how not?
[06:49] <OgMaciel> danilos, carlos here's some baxkground info:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OgMaciel...  let me know when it's a good time for you
[06:49] <mdz> what would be involved?  listing Hobbsee as a point of contact for people wishing to get involved seems like a reasonable thing to do
[06:49] <carlos> OgMaciel: sure, thanks
[06:50] <Riddell> elmo: by giving her our appoval to tell people how best to contribute to kubuntu
[06:50] <danilos> OgMaciel: thanks a lot; do you also hang around #ubuntu channels occasionally?
[06:50] <Riddell> elmo: because I hope jono will be doing his stuff for kubuntu too :)
[06:50] <OgMaciel> dAndy_, occasionaly... I spend most of my time at the brazilin channels ;)
[06:50] <Riddell> mdz: yes, that's about right
[06:51] <mako> Riddell: to what extend does she do that already?
[06:51] <Riddell> mako: a fairly large extent, but she feels nervous to tell people what to do unless she knows she's backed by the kubuntu developers
[06:52] <mako> well, you have no objections from me :)
[06:52] <gnomefreak> she got me started learning merges and kubuntu related bugs
[06:52] <mako> and if you've brought it here, i assume that means there are no objections from you either
[06:53] <Riddell> the kubuntu council are happy with it, I'm just after a nod of approval from here and we'll let her run with it for a few months to see what she achieves
[06:53] <OgMaciel> I am very impressed by the fact that Riddell came here to appoint someone he trusts
[06:53] <mako> well, it sounds great to me
[06:53] <Riddell> rocking
[06:53] <OgMaciel> that shows good management skills to me
[06:53] <Riddell> thanks
[06:54] <mako> elmo?
[06:54] <mako> sabdfl might appear again soon as well
[06:54] <mako> we'll see
[06:54] <elmo> he's enroute to the office
[06:54] <elmo> anyway, eh, ok by me I guess
[06:55] <Seveas> so we've run out of items for now I guess -- should we take a break?
[06:56] <bddebian> I have to head to a meeting but let me add a +1 for carthik for membership before I go :-)
[06:56] <OgMaciel> Seveas, I'd like a word with you if we do take a break
[06:56] <carthik> thanks bddebian
[06:56] <Seveas> OgMaciel, sure
[06:56] <ompaul> elmo, is there an eta? if so maybe we should take that many minutes less 5
[06:56] <elmo> ompaul: he's just sat down
[06:56] <ompaul> elmo, short break :)
[06:56] <gnomefreak> lol
[06:57] <mako> alright then
[06:57] <mako> is there any other business before we move on to new member candidates?
[06:57] <OgMaciel> mako, you decided if you're coming down next week?
[06:57] <mako> OgMaciel: i just sent you an email about it
[06:57] <OgMaciel> oh
[06:57] <OgMaciel> ;)
[06:58] <Seveas> nothing on the agenda -- maybe someone has an impromptu item?
[06:58] <ubuntu_demon> OgMaciel , mako do you talk about ubucon ?
[06:58] <mako> we have not talked about ubucon
[06:58] <ubuntu_demon> Seveas: I have something
[06:58] <OgMaciel> Seveas, I do have a topic
[06:59] <Seveas> ubuntu_demon, well give it a shot -- sabdfl is not here yet
[06:59] <mako> ubuntu_demon: goa head
[07:00] <ubuntu_demon> Only a small question : I wanted to know whether it makes sense to sponsor some forum staff members to ubucon or to UDSWiesbaden. (I know Mark wants some of us attending some Ubuntu conventions)
[07:00] <elmo> ok, so unfortunately sabdfl can't make this meeting, he's run out of time
[07:00] <jenda> :(
[07:00] <carthik> aww
[07:00] <ubuntu_demon> :(
[07:00] <jenda> So will member candidates have to wait for his approval later on?
[07:01] <mako> ubuntu_demon: you'll have to talk to folks at canonical about that but i thin kthat some of these meetings do not have any funded travel
[07:01] <mako> ubuntu_demon: so it's less likely
[07:01] <ubuntu_demon> I thought so
[07:01] <elmo> ubuntu_demon: canonical's not involved in ubucon at all, so that's unlikely (tho I can't/don't speak for Canonical)
[07:01] <ubuntu_demon> one of the reasons I asked was that IMHO it would be good to have Ryan talking IRL with you / Mark
[07:02] <mako> ubuntu_demon: when mark was talking about funding travel to conferences, i think he was he speaking specifically of ubuntu developer summits
[07:02] <mako> ubuntu_demon: i will not be at ubucon
[07:02] <mako> i don't know if mark will be
[07:02] <mako> in any case
[07:03] <ubuntu_demon> mako: okay clear. Can you contact Ryan regarding the forum guidelines draft ?
[07:03] <mako> ubuntu_demon: yes
[07:03] <ubuntu_demon> mako : thank you very much
[07:03] <jenda> Ryan was here a while ago...
[07:03] <tseliot> yep he was here
[07:04] <ubuntu_demon> I guess he run out of time. He's a busy guy :)
[07:04] <mako> alright
[07:04] <Seveas> mako, what to do now - postpone the rest?
[07:04] <ubuntu_demon> he told me he hadn't very much time tonight
[07:04] <mako> Seveas: elmo and i are talkinga bout that
[07:04] <OgMaciel> Seveas, I have a topic
[07:04] <Seveas> mako, ok
[07:04] <Seveas> OgMaciel, ok, shoot
[07:04] <OgMaciel> ok
[07:05] <mako> ok, i think we're going to need to postpone until next week
[07:05] <mako> because we are not quorate
[07:05] <Seveas> mako, we could at least hear OgMaciel out ;)
[07:05] <OgMaciel> ;)
[07:05] <mako> oh that's fine
[07:05] <OgMaciel> ok
[07:05] <mako> we can continue on other business
[07:05] <mako> but in terms of new member candidtes
[07:06] <mako> colin will not be back until next week
[07:06] <mako> and it's unlikely that if even if we approve without voting this week, people won't get approved until he returns anyway
[07:06] <OgMaciel> mako, elmo I would like to create a Canonical "backed" community council for the Brazilian team
[07:06] <ogra> and then be busy at the distro sprint ..
[07:06] <mako> ogra: hmm
[07:06] <elmo> OgMaciel: eh - how do you mean  Canonical backed?
[07:07] <OgMaciel> elmo, we currently have a situation
[07:07] <Seveas> OgMaciel, shouldn't that be 'community council' backed?
[07:07] <carthik> Thanks folks, next week, then.
[07:07] <mako> i think he means CC backed
[07:07] <OgMaciel> elmo, where all control is under one person
[07:07] <OgMaciel> yes, CC-backed
[07:07] <OgMaciel> this has caused trouble
[07:07] <OgMaciel> quite a lot actually
[07:08] <mako> OgMaciel: how many active participants in the br-loco community are there?
[07:08] <AlexRocha> OgMaciel +1
[07:08] <birula> OgMaciel: +1
[07:08] <AndreNoel> OgMaciel: +1
[07:08] <OgMaciel> in order to avoid further confusion, I think a CC-appointed group would solve the problem
[07:08] <OgMaciel> mako, I'd say actively about 30
[07:09] <mako> OgMaciel: how big of a decision-making team are you suggesting?
[07:09] <OgMaciel> mako, that includes doc team
[07:09] <mako> sure
[07:09] <OgMaciel> mako, about 7
[07:09] <OgMaciel> mako, made up of different divisions
[07:09] <OgMaciel> mako, doc, trans, data miners, forum
[07:09] <OgMaciel> a true council
[07:09] <OgMaciel> with shared obligations
[07:09] <OgMaciel> and decisions
[07:10] <OgMaciel> but if we choose the members, it would cause trouble
[07:10] <OgMaciel> people's egos would get in the way
[07:10] <mako> who is we?
[07:10] <OgMaciel> mako, the people who work day in, day out
[07:10] <OgMaciel> me for instance
[07:10] <AlexRocha> OgMaciel: this is the way, very good the proposal ;)
[07:11] <OgMaciel> thanks alenitchev
[07:11] <OgMaciel> AlexRocha,
[07:11] <mako> it puts the CC in a difficult position because, unlike those people, we're not particularly familiar with the current team
[07:11] <OgMaciel> AlexRocha, sorry... tab completion
[07:11] <OgMaciel> mako, true
[07:11] <mako> how would you propose things move forward?
[07:11] <Meyer> well.. i think this is a one-sided version of the story.. but i dont think this is the place to discuss it
[07:11] <OgMaciel> mako, we could get some people to step up
[07:11] <jenda> So - no membership proposals today?
[07:12] <gnomefreak> jenda: not likelu
[07:12] <gnomefreak> likely
[07:12] <jenda> OK, lator then.
[07:12] <Seveas> jenda, ciao
[07:12] <ubuntu_demon> jenda: bye
[07:12] <ompaul> jenda, that is the case hour:05
[07:12] <mako> we might do introductions of people that cannot come to a meeting next week
[07:13] <tseliot> jenda: bye
[07:13] <matthewrevell> mako: That would be handy ... it's unlikely I could make a meeting next week
[07:13] <Seveas> Meyer, I think it is -- some other teams (forums and irc) also have a CC backed solution for a dispute resolution team
[07:13] <OgMaciel> Seveas, +1
[07:13] <segfault> hi
[07:13] <Seveas> Meyer, and you can't deny that the .br team has a dispute to solve
[07:13] <jenda> would be handy... /me gets his support stick ready.
[07:14] <mako> Meyer: there's no sides to be taking here
[07:14] <Meyer> no.. that i can't.. but it seems to me as a personal agenda of his..
[07:14] <OgMaciel> Seveas, it is because of these disputes that I am asking the CC to step in
[07:14] <mako> Meyer: there are at least some people who feel that the current process is both problematic and undemocratic
[07:14] <mako> Meyer: that's the problem
[07:14] <Seveas> Meyer, it is on the  personal agenda of everyone involved
[07:14] <Meyer> if he wants to go this way, we'd gladly resign..
[07:14] <mako> Meyer: the problem is not that it *is* undemocratic or *is* problematic
[07:14] <mako> Meyer: but that it appears that way that people
[07:15] <LaserJock> why wouldn't problems be brought to the CC? Isn't that one of it's purposes?
[07:15] <OgMaciel> LaserJock, +1
[07:15] <Seveas> LaserJock, it is
[07:16] <Meyer> i have no problem at all taking this to the CC.. just think everything could have been solved by talking it out
[07:16] <ogra> ++
[07:16] <Seveas> Meyer, great idea, please do so
[07:16] <Meyer> i've tried
[07:16] <Meyer> these ppl talk one way to us.. and another to the community's public
[07:17] <ogra> discuss in public ?
[07:17] <Meyer> also tried
[07:17] <mako> alright
[07:17] <ogra> well, that should have solved the above at least, no ?
[07:17] <mako> this isn't going anywhere
[07:17] <Meyer> since they want it so much, i'm offering my position
[07:17] <Meyer> and i think licio and segfault too.. but i cannot speak for them
[07:18] <mako> if there are specific issues or disputes, the CC would be happy to consider them
[07:18] <Seveas> Meyer, OgMaciel: we're talking about an 'abstract' problem -- I know quite a bit about it already but others don't. Maybe you both could write down your sides of the story
[07:18] <OgMaciel> mako, just FYI, nobody asked no one to "resign"
[07:18] <OgMaciel> Seveas, sure thing
[07:18] <mako> well there are at least two issues
[07:18] <ogra> how about preparing a summary (two summaries to see both sides) on the wiki for next meeting
[07:19] <mako> there are concerns about the nature of the leadership team on the brazilian loco
[07:19] <segfault> the root of all problem is that ogmaciel is trying to be the brazilian team leader
[07:19] <mako> namely that there are a few people who are not particularly active or responsive any more
[07:19] <OgMaciel> ogra, I could try to attend the next meeting
[07:19] <segfault> which is acctually meyer
[07:19] <OgMaciel> segfault, I am asking for a council
[07:19] <OgMaciel> segfault, no single leader
[07:19] <segfault> dunno what to do in this situation
[07:19] <Meyer> a council of your trusted people
[07:19] <OgMaciel> Meyer, I asked the CC to appoint
[07:20] <mako> Meyer: he certainly hasn't asked me that
[07:20] <Meyer> he has asked that to us...
[07:20] <mako> well, that's not really material here
[07:20] <OgMaciel> mako, Seveas elmo ogra this is very important to solve as quick and smooth as possible
[07:20] <Meyer> segfault, has seen it
[07:20] <OgMaciel> Meyer, please don't make up stuff about it
[07:20] <OgMaciel> mako, +1
[07:21] <mako> Meyer: we're not going to make any decision based on private emails that OgMaciel has sent you
[07:21] <OgMaciel> mako, which I didn't btw
[07:21] <Meyer> they were sent to a hole bunch of ppl.. including segfault
[07:22] <segfault> yup.
[07:22] <OgMaciel> mako, I have suggested that we include the active people
[07:22] <OgMaciel> mako, some of them are here present
[07:22] <OgMaciel> mako, it makes sense to me that a council be made of people who are present in the community
[07:22] <AndreNoel> well, none mails i've sent to meyer or segfault was answered when i came in the community... i think that a council would be more participative... and more helpful
[07:22] <OgMaciel> mako, I cannot help that I work with them every day
[07:23] <gnomefreak> what about appointing an outside group to act as CC for the br team that way its general not a sided
[07:23] <OgMaciel> gnomefreak, that could work
[07:23] <mako> alright
[07:23] <mako> this isn't going anywhere
[07:24] <OgMaciel> yup
[07:24] <OgMaciel> afraid so
[07:24] <mako> OgMaciel: you seem to be asking that the currently leadership team for the brazilian loco be dissolved and that a new be created
[07:24] <OgMaciel> mako, the problem is that there is none
[07:24] <mako> as, that there is no leadership team at the moment
[07:25] <AndreNoel> why not joining with the actual leadership?
[07:25] <segfault> i guess Meyer is the actual leader
[07:25] <nixternal> Chicago Loco has 30+ active, with a 100+ interested and helping out when possible. We don't do a "leadership" type of thing, as everyone is a leader of "their" project. I think this has created an amazing environment for the Chicago team, but I don't know if it works with others, we just got lucky maybe ;)
[07:25] <nixternal> and we are all working on creating patches for bug #1 ;)
[07:25] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in ubuntu-meta "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[07:25] <nixternal> oops
[07:26] <mako> OgMaciel: alright, write up a proposal for a leadership team
[07:26] <mako> have it explain the shortcomings of not having one and the benefits of having one
[07:26] <OgMaciel> mako, I could do that
[07:27] <mako> Meyer, segfault: it sounds like part of the problem is that certain tasks are very centralized
[07:27] <mako> right now
[07:27] <OgMaciel> mako, +1
[07:27] <Meyer> not at all.. each part of the community does what it can...
[07:27] <Meyer> OgMaciel, wants it all
[07:28] <OgMaciel> Meyer, once again... pay attention... I am asking for the creation of a council
[07:28] <AndreNoel> sounds that og is like darth vader
[07:28] <segfault> he wants to centralize it. :-)
[07:28] <birula> AndreNoel: :P
[07:29] <mako> segfault, Meyer: well, there is zero chance of that happening through the CC
[07:29] <AndreNoel> og is not that monster
[07:29] <OgMaciel> segfault, centralize it around a council... yes
[07:29] <segfault> some time ago i was absent because of personal problems, and recently i gave him the ownership of i18n team
[07:29] <segfault> but i dunno why he wants to take meyer position
[07:30] <mako> what is meyer's position, you both just said things were completely decentralized?
[07:30] <Seveas> segfault, I don't think 'owning' is the correct word and he doesn't seem to want to take meyers position...
[07:30] <OgMaciel> segfault, it is all explained here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OgMaciel
[07:30] <OgMaciel> Seveas, thanks
[07:30] <Meyer> i'm doing infrastructure and events mostly
[07:30] <OgMaciel> segfault, you were absent for 8 months and I asked you to step down
[07:30] <mako> Meyer: are you opposed to sharing those responsibilities
[07:31] <Meyer> nope
[07:31] <segfault> hahaha 8 months!? what a lier
[07:31] <Meyer> segfault, also has infrastructure admin access
[07:31] <OgMaciel> segfault, please don't use these terms... we're talking here
[07:31] <Meyer> there are other ppl doing events too
[07:31] <OgMaciel> AndreNoel, would you tell people how often you've seen segfault ?
[07:31] <OgMaciel> AlexRocha, you too
[07:32] <AndreNoel> well, not answer my mail yet...
[07:32] <mako> ok, are you opposed to sharing those responsibilities with people who might not completely take your side during this argument?
[07:32] <Meyer> OgMaciel, segfault has been missing since april.. that's when his kid was born
[07:32] <Seveas> OgMaciel, segfault, Meyer (and al others): please don't do personal attacks in here
[07:32] <Meyer> mako, not at all..
[07:32] <segfault> i'm really disappointed with you Ogmaciel, i've never imagined that you could speak this way
[07:32] <OgMaciel> mako, anyhow, this is getting personal... I will write what you've asked me and get back to the CC
[07:33] <segfault> since i helped you in the beginning, and introduced you to the ubuntu community
[07:33] <segfault> its really sad
[07:33] <OgMaciel> I apologized to everyone who had to witness this
[07:33] <mako> Meyer,segfault: do you think that executive council for you team would be a bad thing?
[07:34] <segfault> mako: i see no problem with that, never had
[07:34] <Meyer> there is one.. the thing is that Og feels bad cause he doesn't have majority
[07:34] <mako> segfault: ok
[07:34] <Meyer> so he tries to sabotage it
[07:34] <rodarvus> segfault, Meyer, OgMaciel: again, please calm down.
[07:35] <rodarvus> personal attacks won't take you anywere
[07:35] <OgMaciel> JoeyStanford, +1
[07:35] <AndreNoel> JoeyStanford: +1
[07:35] <mako> people are clearly very upset
[07:35] <birula> JoeyStanford: :1
[07:35] <birula> +1
[07:35] <mako> my basic position is that i'm not opposed to a council
[07:35] <JoeyStanford> Might I suggest this be tabled and sorted out off line.
[07:35] <mako> but i don't wnat it to be created because of interpersonal politics
[07:36] <OgMaciel> mako, +1
[07:36] <ubuntu_demon> I'm leaving. If anyone needs me try contacting me on irc or PM'ing me on the forums. Bye!
[07:36] <mako> you all need to think real hard about what sort of system you'd want for hte team
[07:36] <mako> ubuntu_demon: cool
[07:36] <Meyer> mako, i alerady said it.. i'm willing to resign if you guys feels its for the best
[07:36] <mako> Meyer: i don't know enough about the situation to have opinion either way
[07:37] <Meyer> we created the council based on the same system as the CC...
[07:37] <rodarvus> I'd say both sides expose your points on some wiki page, and agree on a meeting (with external invitees) later this week
[07:37] <Meyer> a group of members (basically @u.c) tha voted for it..
[07:38] <rodarvus> this is a problem the br-loco-team should learn to handle by itself
[07:38] <OgMaciel> rodarvus, the problem is that we have reached a stand off
[07:38] <mako> you're going to need to describe teh current problem
[07:38] <Seveas> rodarvus, it's the first locoteam to come to the CC so might be a good experience for the council too
[07:38] <OgMaciel> rodarvus, and in order to preserve the community I am asking the CC to step in
[07:39] <mako> OgMaciel: you're asking in a slightly bizarre way
[07:39] <rodarvus> Seveas, good point
[07:39] <segfault> como esse cara  chato.
[07:39] <mako> there are two many issues being conflated together here
[07:39] <AndreNoel> segfault: talk it in english
[07:39] <mako> if there are specific unresolved problems with the team and an actionable step that can be taken to resolve them, that's fine
[07:40] <mako> if there are structural problems that can be remedied, tat's fine too
[07:40] <mako> but we have both of those issues and much more
[07:40] <mako> and it's basically degenerating into personal attacks
[07:41] <OgMaciel> mako, the issues can be summed up in the following...  I believe a brazilian made CC would be appropriate and resolve some issues
[07:41] <mako> we don't need a high level summary
[07:41] <mako> we need specific actionable proposals with specific, well defined, problems
[07:41] <OgMaciel> mako, and it is too bad that some of the people who agree with me and are here cannot express themselves in english
[07:41] <mako> the problem is that it's not even clear what the disagreement is
[07:41] <JoeyStanford> (Eu penso que este necessita ser discutido em outra parte. Eu no penso que este tpico deve ser discutido aqui. H uns muitos da emoo com este tpico.)
[07:41] <mako> what is clear is the personal problems
[07:42] <segfault> yup, we can move on
[07:42] <AlexRocha> OgMaciel I
[07:42] <segfault> let's write down the problems and take it to another meeting
[07:42] <mako> alright
[07:42] <OgMaciel> mako, I will accept what the CC decides to do next
[07:42] <mako> so we are not quorate so we're going to have to postpone until next tuesday 16UTC
[07:42] <segfault> exposing the problems and its possible solutions, we've taken too much time here
[07:43] <OgMaciel> JoeyStanford, thanks for the feedback
[07:43] <Seveas> mako, you sure sabdfl and elmo will make it?
[07:43] <matthewrevell> mako: Is there any way to introduce myself, in prep for membership consideration?
[07:43] <mako> kamion and elmo will make it
[07:43] <Seveas> ok
[07:43] <mako> maybe mark
[07:43] <Seveas> matthewrevell, next week ;)
[07:43] <mako> if there is anybody that definitely cannot make it next week
[07:43] <matthewrevell> Seveas: Yeah, getting to this meeting was difficult enough...
[07:43] <mako> speak up now
[07:43] <matthewrevell> mako: me:)
[07:44] <AlexRocha> JoeyStanford, se no for discutido aqui, no ser resolvido por fora :(
[07:44] <JoeyStanford> Og: welcome.
[07:44] <mako> you may end up having to come back again in the future
[07:44] <gnomefreak> tuesday at 1600?
[07:44] <mako> 1600UTC
[07:44] <gnomefreak> k
[07:44] <mako> and it may make things slower, to go today
[07:44] <mako> that's fine
[07:44] <mako> it will ONLY be for membership applications
[07:44] <OgMaciel> cool
[07:44] <mako> a 1h meeting
[07:44] <mako> alright matthewrevell go ahead
[07:45] <Seveas> mako, ok, I updated the agenda
[07:45] <matthewrevell> mako: thank you :)
[07:45] <matthewrevell> I've promoted Ubuntu on LugRadio and at LugRadio Live. We've also provided a platform for Ubuntu to reach the wider community.
[07:45] <matthewrevell> I've been at the core of the Marketing Team's renewal and a regular contributor to the new Fridge. I look forward to Ubuntu as the world's favourite operating system, because it's excellent software and it spreads freedom!
[07:45] <matthewrevell> That's my, slightly long, intro.
[07:46] <mako> sounds good
[07:46] <matthewrevell> mako: mdke said he'd mailed in a +1 for me.
[07:46] <matthewrevell> ompaul: thanks :)
[07:46] <gnomefreak> +1 for matthewrevell
[07:46] <Seveas> \o/ for matthewrevell from me, module the not too long direct ivolvement. I have no doubt though that the involvement will continue
[07:46] <mako> i appreciate your work on the fridge
[07:46] <nixternal> mako: matthewrevell has and is doing a lot for the "advocational" side of the community.  he is an outstanding candidate for membership, as i enjoy working along side with him on a daily basis!
[07:46] <mako> matthewrevell: how long have you been directly involved?
[07:47] <matthewrevell> mako: In the community directly? Since June.
[07:47] <Seveas> I thought it was later ;)
[07:47] <matthewrevell> Seveas: slow burner :)
[07:47] <JoeyStanford> +1 for Matthew Revell
[07:48] <mako> matthewrevell: great, sounds good :)
[07:48] <mako> thanks for showing up and sitting through this
[07:48] <ompaul> mako, he is rather active, to put it very politely
[07:48] <mako> right, we look for significant and sustained contributions
[07:48] <mako> i don't think there's any argument about the significant part
[07:48] <mako> i like to see folks around for a couple months personallly as well
[07:48] <mako> so it seems you've snuck under the wire :)
[07:49] <matthewrevell> mako: I waited especially :)
[07:49] <nixternal> i think he has been around longer then june honestly
[07:50] <gnomefreak> ive seen him before june but i didnt notice how active he was
[07:50] <Seveas> matthewrevell, which one are you on http://www.tecspy.com/loveslugradio/ellr04.jpg?
[07:50] <matthewrevell> Seveas: oof, top frame, next to jono
[07:51] <mako> alright then
[07:51] <ompaul> mako, by next week it will be sustained his first post that I noted was: 26/06/06 15:25 however I was kind of surprised when I got it as he had been in irc for Jun 09 12:55:05 *       matthewrevell<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu-marketing
[07:52] <jenda> Ah, are we talking about matthewrevell? :)
[07:52] <mako> alright sounds goods
[07:53] <mako> matthewrevell: you should wait for approval by elmo, kamion, or sabdfl
[07:53] <Seveas> see you all next week
[07:53] <mako> and that's the end of the meeting :)
[07:53] <matthewrevell> mako: thanks
[07:53] <mako> great
[07:53] <matthewrevell> Seveas: bye
[07:53] <mako> matthewrevell: thanks for showing up
[07:53] <jenda> He is a priceless asset in my opinion - experience and skills many times proved, devotion repeatedly observed.
[07:53] <nixternal> mako: thanks for the approval today, greatly appreciated ;)
[07:53] <matthewrevell> jenda: Cheers :)
[07:54] <jenda> gratz, nixternal. Welcome to the team, officially and all stamps down
[07:54] <nixternal> muhahah...i mean oh thanks
[07:55] <matthewrevell> right, I must go and finish a report. THanks all.
[07:56] <ompaul> nixternal, be nice
[07:57] <gnomefreak> jenda: leave for good?
[07:57] <jenda> gnomefreak: for tonight
[07:57] <gnomefreak> oh
[07:57] <jenda> *gone*
[07:57] <ompaul> was it something I said :)


[18:34] <ShortAce> hey guys, is anyone using a firewire audio interface on ubuntu studio here? I have the Edirol FA-101: Should there be a folder called /dev/fw* ? My FireWire is connected but there is not such a folder
[18:36] <Eickmeyer[m]> ShortAce: The Linux kernel has been having regressions in ALSA with FireWire audio devices to the point where, for 20.04 LTS, we're considering dropping support since those devices tend to be very old, which explains why the code in ALSA/the kernel isn't being updated.
[18:37] <Eickmeyer[m]> PCI and USB is the way to go anymore.
[18:38] <ShortAce> Yes but I read it should be supported via ffado
[18:39] <Eickmeyer[m]> ShortAce: In order to do that, ALSA Firewire has to be blacklisted first. I'm not sure how to do that.
[18:39] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks:
[18:39] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: You around? You might have more familiarity than me on this one.
[18:41] <Eickmeyer[m]> ShortAce: Look here for ffado related stuff. http://ffado.org/
[18:43] <Eickmeyer[m]> ShortAce: The last documented instance of FFADO working with that device was in 2013. It's now 7 years later, so it may have been lost to bitrot.
[18:43] <ShortAce> Well okay, thanks!
[18:44] <Eickmeyer[m]> ShortAce: I realie the monetary investment in FireWire devices was huge at the time, but I'd consider updating to more current hardware.
[18:44] <Eickmeyer[m]> More current audio interfaces tend to be a much lower investment than the FireWire interfaqces of yore.
[18:51] <ShortAce> I'll give blacklisting a trie
[18:51] <ShortAce> try*
[21:00] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I have not had any luck getting a fw device to show up.
[21:03] <OvenWerks>  The old ffado stack is not compiled into the kernel by default and so merely blacklisting new modules will not work. I am looking for an old iso for either us or avlinux known to work with this device and see if I can trace from that end... or at least make sure my hw is all ok.
[21:04]  * OvenWerks needs a power supply first of course
[21:06] <OvenWerks> I may even try an old P4 mb with pci fw card.
[21:09] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: basically either the fw device just works as an ALSA device or not at all... it depends on the device and fw interface I guess. Mine doesn't work any which way so far.
[21:12] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Yeah, my advice has been to get a new interface as even FFADO's compatibility page is unclear since it's 7 years since that page was even updated.
[21:12] <Eickmeyer[m]> I'm wondering if we should drop the FFADO stack altogether.
[21:13] <OvenWerks> For those who it works for, it should be left in... but controls should probably not allow the FW backend
[21:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> Agreed. Official support from our end is an issue though.
[21:14] <OvenWerks> For those who it works for, it should be left in... but controls should probably not allow the FW backend
[21:14] <OvenWerks> (at least until I can get it working)
[21:14] <Eickmeyer[m]> OK
[21:15] <Eickmeyer[m]> Do you have your new PS yet?
[21:16] <OvenWerks> So basically if a user has a devic ethat shows up as an alsa device, there is no problem but if it needs to use ffado we can't help at this time.
[21:16] <Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, I'll see if we can do something.
[21:17] <Eickmeyer[m]> !ffado
[21:17] <OvenWerks> it has been shipped but is supposed to take 10 days.
[21:17] <Eickmeyer[m]> Ok.
[21:17] <OvenWerks> it has left Ontario
[21:18] <Eickmeyer[m]> !ffado is reply FFADO is a firewire driver for certain Firewire audio interfaces. It is incompabible with the Linux kernel included in Ubuntu at this time.
[21:18] <OvenWerks> I am working on the bug I told you about... when I have confirmed it works here, I will paste the new autojack file and you can push it.
[21:19] <OvenWerks> Then I will remove FW from the glade file (or you can) and that can be pushed
[21:19] <Eickmeyer[m]> Go ahead and paste it in -devel (as we should be talking in there right now)
[21:20] <OvenWerks> we should make a bug for fw not working.


[07:00] <rbasak> apw: morning! Are you aware of any races in overlayfs that might be observable from userspace? I have a tar complaining "Directory renamed before its status could be extracted" but it seems to affect overlayfs only.
[07:00] <rbasak> 3.8.0-19-generic
[07:00] <rbasak> (raring)
[07:33] <apw> rbasak, there are any number of semantic issues with overlayfs, though it could be a bad assumption by the creating app as likely as anything
[07:35] <rbasak> apw: AFAICT, it's tar. Just unpacking a fairly big tarball (from a pipe, being delivered from a different filesystem)
[07:35] <apw> rbasak, is there a bug filed?  if you get me the number i can have a look when i get to the office, in transit right now
[07:36] <rbasak> apw: unfortunately it's really hard to reproduce. I can do it reliably, but it requires an autopkgtest run of about three hours. I haven't filed a bug because I'm not sure it is a bug in the first place (or if so where it is), but I'd appreciate if you could take a look with me when you get in.
[07:37] <rbasak> apw: oh, you're sprinting this week, aren't you? I don't want to take your time away from that, actually.
[07:42] <apw> rbasak, heh, if we have time we have time :)  still good to chat about it
[07:45] <rbasak> So I'll start explaining the problem, and you'll see it when you're ready :)
[07:46] <rbasak> I'm writing an adt-virt-lxc. It seems to work, and AFAICT, without any bugs, at least not that are relevant to this problem. I can get it to run in clone mode, or ephemeral mode. With clone mode it uses lxc-clone and overlayfs isn't involved. With ephemeral mode, it uses lxc-start-ephemeral which sets up an overlayfs against the template container's rootfs. In this case I'm using --keep-data, so the upper backing store is on a normal fs.
[07:47] <rbasak> After the container is started, the system uses lxc-attach to run commands inside the container (which has its root fs as the overlayfs in the failure case).
[07:48] <rbasak> adt-run transfers files in and out of the container using tar (so it's generic and can work with other virt mechanisms)
[07:48] <rbasak> When running in clone mode, this seems to work fine. But when in ephemeral mode (which uses the overlayfs), I get tar bombing out with many "Directory renamed before its status could be extracted" errors.
[07:49] <rbasak> tar's stdin is connected to another tar's stdout. The latter tar is running outside the container. The former is extracting inside the container. So this is transferring files into the container.
[07:50] <rbasak> I have a suspicion (but am not sure) that the problem occurs when the tar running outside the container has finished all I/O, so the only thing going on is that the pipe is being flushed out.
[07:51] <rbasak> This is inside a VM that I'm evidently sharing with I/O hungry users. Disk I/O seems to be extremely slow on this VM. So perhaps tar is extracting entirely into buffers in this case?
[07:52] <rbasak> The code path inside adt-virt-lxc is exactly the same in both modes. The only difference is the way the containers were created. Once they are up, both situations do exactly the same thing. The only difference is the underlying configuration of the container (native fs vs. overlayfs).
[07:52] <rbasak> So AFAICT, it's a problem affecting tar extractions on overlayfs only.
[07:54] <apw> rbasak, sounds compelling, and overlayfs does have some awkward semantics when copy up occurs
[07:55] <rbasak> I've just looked up the tar source to see exactly what it's complaining about
[07:57] <rbasak> Looks like it doesn't like it if st_ino or st_dev have changed.
[07:59] <rbasak> Against the known path/filename and an fstatat against the previously open fd, perhaps? SOmething like that.
[08:04] <zequence> apw: Are you going to DebConf by any chance?
[08:04] <apw> zequence, sadly no
[08:04] <smb> apw, morning
[08:04] <apw> smb, moin ...
[08:05] <apw> smb, having fun yet?  overloaded and broken the coffee machine?
[08:05] <smb> apw, not much yet... reminds me
[08:05] <smb> coooffeee machiiine
[08:07] <zequence> apw: Maybe some other time then :). You want to do another upload of the saucy kernel before handing it over?
[08:09] <apw> zequence, yeah indeed, then we can sort out the sponsorship process for that, and we should work towards getting you upload for it
[08:11] <zequence> apw: That would be great. I've been meaning to get some more documented packaging experience beyond the kernel, but it's a bit slim so far.
[08:12] <apw> zequence, well getting a package upload is a good start on the path
[08:17] <rbasak> apw: over to you then I guess?
[08:18] <rbasak> apw: if the conclusion is "yeah, it does that" with no hope for a fix, that's fair enough. adt-virt-lxc defaults to clone mode - I was just hoping to make it faster for development purposes by adding --ephemeral. We can still use that with the caveat that if it breaks then the developer should switch to clone mode :)
[08:18] <rbasak> I don't think we'll use this in production, but if we do, then we'll use clone mode.
[08:20] <apw> rbasak, ack


[07:17] <sil2100> tsdgeos: https://code.launchpad.net/~sil2100/unity/ignore_unmapped_on_minimize_unminimize_6.0/+merge/127652
[07:18] <tsdgeos> oh cool
[07:18] <tsdgeos> i was planning to do it now
[07:18] <tsdgeos> have you done 5.0 too?
[07:18] <tsdgeos> back in a sec
[07:19] <sil2100> tsdgeos: 5.0 not yet, I did 6.0 since we need it in ;)
[07:19] <sil2100> tsdgeos: can you test and approve? :)
[07:20] <sil2100> (your own fix ;p)
[07:26] <tsdgeos> sure
[07:35] <sil2100> tsdgeos: once you're done, please approve - since I want it to go in ASAP
[07:35] <tsdgeos> compile just finished
[07:42] <tsdgeos> sil2100: give me 10 min more, something went wrong in my compile and things are crashing like crazy
[07:48] <sil2100> Ouuch
[07:48] <sil2100> Ok, no problem
[07:55] <tsdgeos> sil2100: done
[07:55] <tsdgeos> sorry for the delay
[07:56] <sil2100> Awesome, thanks!
[07:57] <tsdgeos> sil2100: going to test the 5.0 one and will create a MR for it too
[08:02] <sil2100> tsdgeos: thanks!
[08:44] <tsdgeos> sil2100: not yet merged? needs an unblock or is just the merger being busy?
[08:49] <tsdgeos> https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity/ignore_unmapped_on_minimize_unminimize_5.0 ready too
[08:51] <sil2100> I think the merger is busy...
[08:51] <sil2100> The merger seems to be really slow recetnly, and has a BIG queue
[11:54] <davmor2> hey guys I noticed that the messaging indicator shows online with no app started but can't be set to anything else till an app is open it this the expected behaviour?
[12:25] <Mirv> davmor2: sounds like a bug, I can see that as well...
[12:26] <Mirv> btw anyone wanting to test the candidate for next 12.10 unity stack, it's at the moment at ppa:unity-team/ppa
[12:27] <Daekdroom> Mirv, is it still building?
[12:27] <Mirv> Daekdroom: only for ARM
[12:28] <Mirv> i386/amd64 should be all built and published
[12:38] <Daekdroom> Installed and running.
[12:38] <Daekdroom> No kittens have died so far.
[12:40] <davmor2> popey: quick check on skye...
[12:42] <popey> davmor2, leaping around like a lunatic
[12:43] <davmor2> popey: kittens are indeed safe then it appears
[13:28] <davmor2> Mirv: I'd love to join in unfortunately I'm juggling enough things as it is
[15:05] <anant> I compiled unity from src by following instructions at http://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/development/unity/. On starting it though (unity --replace &), it crashed.
[15:06] <anant> I'm running Q Beta 2. Stack trace: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1251142/
[16:16] <mhr3> bschaefer, morning :)
[16:16] <bschaefer> mhr3, good morning!
[16:17] <mhr3> want to improve your mood in the morning - lp:~mhr3/unity/ubus-rewrite ;)
[16:17] <bschaefer> \o/
[16:17]  * bschaefer grabs the branch and compiles it
[16:18] <mhr3> things seemed to be working mostly :)
[16:18] <mhr3> will need to merge re-trunk though i guess
[16:18] <bschaefer> mhr3, awesome, and without taking a look at the code, how is starvation being handled?
[16:18] <mhr3> i mean re-merge trunk :)
[16:18] <didrocks> mhr3: *NO* :-)
[16:18] <mhr3> didrocks, huush! it's your eod!
[16:19] <didrocks> mhr3: don't even try to sneak it in 6.0, I know you thought about it! :)
[16:19] <bschaefer> haha
[16:19]  * mhr3 continues his masterplan while didrocks isn't looking
[16:19] <didrocks> mhr3: you will need to DDOS launchpad to not send any email :)
[16:19] <didrocks> or ack the canonical servers for it
[16:20] <didrocks> starts to be quite expensive to do :)
[16:20] <mhr3> didrocks, you're thinking too big, all it takes is pinging is to suspend your mail for a bit ;)
[16:21] <didrocks> heh :)
[16:21] <mhr3> bschaefer, as for starvation, i set the default prio to "default", ie all ubus msgs have same prio as redraws or any other event processing
[16:22] <bschaefer> mhr3, cool, I was just thinking if people keep shoving HIGH prio the ones before it could starve to death :(
[16:22] <mhr3> but the starvation isn't really fixable while unity runs in the same thread as compiz
[16:23] <mhr3> perhaps one day... :)
[16:23] <bschaefer> hmm the only way I could think of would be to bump of the prio at times for things...
[16:23] <bschaefer> meh
[16:23] <bschaefer> it is very unlikely to happen :)
[16:24] <mhr3> yea, it'd be nice we glib sources could specify deadlines by which even low-prio sources have to be processed
[16:24] <mhr3> that could completely fix possible starvation
[16:24] <bschaefer> hmm yeah, which would be nice but the added complexity vs worth it
[16:25] <bschaefer> starvation is not cool though
[16:25] <mhr3> but anyway... i gotta be on squash court in 30minutes, so gtg cyas :)
[16:25] <bschaefer> mhr3, have a good one! Thanks again!
[16:27] <mhr3> bschaefer, thx, as for the branch, it's just missing a few more tests, then i'll re-merge and propose ;)
[16:29] <bschaefer> cool, Ill test it out as well :) (ie. fixing a few bugs ;))
[16:32] <mhr3> feel free to comment it @ https://code.launchpad.net/~mhr3/unity/ubus-rewrite/+merge/127821
[16:32] <bschaefer> will do!
[19:46] <anant> what's the difference between the enum values NOT_HANDLED and HIDE_DASH (enum HandledType in UnityCore/Lens.h)?


[01:36] <ePeppr> Hi everyone. Quick RSS question.
[01:37] <LjL> ePeppr: support channel is #ubuntu
[01:37] <ePeppr> ooohhh, ok. Sorry, I wanted to know about RSS technology implmentation, So #ubuntu it is.
[08:32] <gyaresu> Would anyone care to admin approve my application to the ubuntu irc operator team? Or even ask me questions as to who I am and why I might want this.
[09:24] <elkbuntu> gyaresu, which official ubuntu channels are you operator in?
[09:31] <gyaresu> elkbuntu: Hey. I'm not. I thought it might be a nice way of starting. I've updated my launchpad profile today and just feel like It's time to make a bit more of an active contribution. https://launchpad.net/~gyaresu
[09:31] <elkbuntu> gyaresu, the team isnt something you just join, sorry
[09:32] <gyaresu> ah.
[09:32] <elkbuntu> it's there for management and so we know who are ops, not so people can mooch ops
[09:32] <gyaresu> No problem. I'll keep to what I'm doing there and tidy up around the edges ;)
[09:41] <gyaresu> "mooch ops". Perhaps not the right turn of phrase.
[15:11] <jpatrick> juliux: what client do you use?
[15:12] <juliux> jpatrick, xchat
[15:12] <juliux> with an external channel join list
[15:12] <jpatrick> juliux: ah, ok, it's just that you joined before you were cloaked
[15:12] <juliux> because xchat has limitation in the channel join field
[15:13] <juliux> the problem is don't know how to tell xchat that it should wait with the joins
[15:14] <jpatrick> juliux: freenode recommends: http://freenode.net/recommended/xchat/kludges/
[15:14] <juliux> jpatrick, thxs
[15:15] <jpatrick> no problem
[15:18] <juliux> should i load the networklist?
[15:18] <jpatrick> dunno, don't use xchat..
[15:19] <juliux> why not?
[15:19] <juliux> give me another grafical irc client;9
[15:19] <juliux> and no pidgin is not an irc client;)
[15:19] <erUSUL> juliux: but irssi is *the* irc client lol XD
[15:20] <juliux> <-- needs a gui;)
[15:20] <jpatrick> juliux: http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot3io7.png
[15:21] <juliux> i know irssi, but i don't like it
[15:21] <jpatrick> hersay
[15:22] <juliux> i am an user;)
[15:27] <jpatrick> juliux: it works!
[15:28] <juliux> no realy
[15:28] <juliux> the skript is not loaded by default on a xchat start
[15:28] <jpatrick> did you remove the .txt from the filename name?
[15:29] <juliux> jap
[15:32] <jpatrick> juliux: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nocloakxchat
[15:34] <juliux> i will search on the web how to load the skript right
[15:41] <jpatrick> juliux: wer kommt wo?
[15:51] <no0tic> jpatrick, is it "how do you do?"
[15:52] <jpatrick> no0tic: it's "who comes where?" in German
[15:52] <jpatrick> in reference to his /quit message
[15:54] <no0tic> jpatrick, :)
[15:55] <jpatrick> now we've scared him off.. hmm
[19:58] <astharot> hello, can I change my cloak? I't like to use the name on launchpad :P
[19:59] <astharot> because there's someone on launchapd registered with "astharot" and it's confusing
[20:00] <jpatrick> astharot: you have to ask nalioth nicely :)
[20:00] <PriceChild> hey astharot
[20:00] <PriceChild> astharot, what do you want it changed to?
[20:00] <PriceChild> astharot, please register the new nick on nickserv, link the current one to it, and set it as the master.
[20:00] <astharot> I want to use this one, I just want to change the cloak
[20:01] <PriceChild> astharot (n=sithlord@ubuntu/member/astharot)
[20:01] <astharot> *I'd like to... :)
[20:01] <PriceChild> the cloak is set to this one?
[20:01] <astharot> yes
[20:01] <PriceChild> you want to change it to a different nickname?
[20:01] <astharot> I'd like to change ubuntu/member/astharot to ubuntu/member/gerardo
[20:01] <astharot> that's my name on launchpad
[20:01] <nalioth> astharot: you can use whatever nick you like
[20:01] <PriceChild> please register gerado with nickserv, link astharot to it, then set gerado to master.
[20:02] <nalioth> astharot: just do as PriceChild asks first so we can cloak you as you ask
[20:02] <astharot> uhm I cannot use this nickname with a different cloak?
[20:02] <PriceChild> Yes you can.
[20:02] <PriceChild> But you need to own the new nickname.
[20:02] <astharot> ok
[20:02] <PriceChild> the two nicknames will be linked together and both display the same cloak
[20:03] <gerardo> well it's not mine :)
[20:03] <PriceChild> pardon?
[20:03] <astharot> gerardo is already registered
[20:03] <PriceChild> ah, yes
[20:03] <nalioth> that is a problem
[20:04] <PriceChild> (missed an 'r' out when i checked it last)
[20:04] <astharot> :\
[20:09] <astharot> so, no solution?
[20:09] <PriceChild> astharot, one moment please.
[20:09] <astharot> sure
[20:56] <PriceChild> astharot the cloak was changed. You should identify to nickserv to get the new one :)
[20:56] <astharot> PriceChild: perfect! thanks :)
[21:13]  * P3L|C4N0 saludos
[21:14] <nalioth> hola
[21:14] <P3L|C4N0> hi nalioth