[19:33] <D[4]ni> which gui framework should i use to build an application that looks native on both kde and gnome, and wiöö (much later) be easier to port to windows, perhaps even osx?
[19:34] <D[4]ni> i googled for a while now, it mostly says "install the systemsettings package" and stuff like this, but i don't want to have the user do this kind of things to make my application look okay
[19:53] <tsimpson> D[4]ni: In my opinion, you want to use Qt
[19:55] <D[4]ni> tsimpson: still i want to avoid the need to have the user adjust settings on his system. is this even possible?
[19:57] <tsimpson> well you can choose a style if you want, or just use what it chooses by default, which should be whatever's appropriate
[20:02] <D[4]ni> on google most pages say users have to select the "gtk+" theme in their qt-config to make qt applications on gnome not look like from the 20th century...
[20:31] <tsimpson> D[4]ni: well Qt comes with a GTK style, so the opposite is true too
[20:33] <tsimpson> but, a big plus for Qt is that it's cross-platform. so you write one code for Linux, Windows, and Mac
[20:45] <D[4]ni> tsimpson: so that means there _has_ to be some sort of user interaction to make a qt application look good on gtk?
[20:46] <D[4]ni> s/good/native/
[20:46] <D[4]ni> s/gtk/gnome/
[20:46] <D[4]ni> it's way too late.
[20:47] <tsimpson> same goes for GTK though, it would need something to tell it to use a Qt style theme
[20:48] <tsimpson> you shouldn't worry too much about that anyway, you can't control what the user sets their theme to
[20:48] <tsimpson> it'll look native where it's set to, so whatever the distribution decides should be default
[20:54] <D[4]ni> well, so i'll have a whole bunch of ubuntu users with an application looking like crap by default :<
[20:55] <D[4]ni> i guess i can somehow detect whether they are running on gnome, and display a hint on first launch which points them to qtconfig?
[20:59] <tsimpson> you could
[21:28] <D[4]ni> seems like i have to do strange and/or deprecated things...
[21:30] <D[4]ni> qt checks for DESKTOP_SESSION == "gnome" - it's "ubuntu" for me and probably every other ubuntu user. so i'll have to check for both values - or check for $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID, which is deprecated
[21:32] <D[4]ni> anyway, i'm going to sleep for today now.


[23:37] <zetheroo> we lost power to one of our servers and when power was restored the software raid (mirror) would not boot any more
[23:37] <zetheroo> all I get is a white blinking cursor on a black background
[23:47] <mybalzitch> have you tried changing the boot order?
[23:48] <zetheroo> yes
[23:49] <zetheroo> now I installed grub on both disks from a live ubuntu session but I get a couple errors and then the grub rescue
[23:50] <zetheroo> error: no such device: 57A3-1F74
[23:50] <zetheroo> error: unknown filesystem
[23:50] <zetheroo> Entering rescue mode...


[12:03] <sivang> where do they come from now?!
[12:03] <sivang> \sh: right
[12:03] <_ion> You want to drink some coffee? Use Web 2.0! Want to get married? Use Web 2.0!
[12:04] <LaserJock> what the heck is Web 2.0?
[12:04] <\sh> LaserJock: a webmail frontend with ajax
[12:04] <mdke> it is a buzz word for a website which is really cool
[12:04] <sivang> hehe
[12:05] <\sh> s/web2.0/launchpad/
[12:06] <sivang> heh
[12:06] <sivang> oops
[12:07] <\sh> tim didn't even know, that it already existed..the uber web application, which can do everything..it's the launchpad..we can fly to the moon with it, we can dive into the water with it, it speaks different languages, and it provides us with (most of the year) daily freshmeat
[12:07] <sivang> heheh
[12:07] <sivang> anyway, still getting the halts after all the mockery in the dhclient.conf files,
[12:07] <sivang> night all
[12:08] <\sh> sivang: server then
[12:10] <\sh> hmm RHEL 5 will only be released, if Xen is ready for production environment..
[12:13] <Burgwork> \sh, RHEL5 right into Vista
[12:14] <\sh> Burgwork: I hope RHEL5 is changing to .deb ;)
[12:15] <\sh> Burgwork: no serious, release should be in december
[12:16] <Burgwork> \sh, heh, I doubt it
[12:16] <\sh> moins ogra
[12:17] <\sh> oh reconnect..
[12:32] <\sh> night everyone
[12:43] <eXistenZ> I would like to work on the development of multilingual support in different programs, where do I have to start off?
[12:44] <ReMink> I've created my first package and my repository _o/ he he
[12:45] <jcole> debconf: DbDriver "di_questions": could not open /var/log/debian-installer/cdebconf/questions.dat
[12:46] <jcole> is the debconf installer questions now nuked?
[12:46] <jcole> debconf-get-selections --installer
[12:48] <Burgwork> eXistenZ, you want to do translations?
[12:48] <infinity> Kinnison: Odd time for you to be around...
[12:49] <Kinnison> infinity: Yah, just prepping for bed and realised I'd not reconnected the IRC proxy for you to be able to rant overnight at me :-)
[12:49] <infinity> Ooo, overnight ranting!
[12:49] <Kinnison> :-)
[12:49] <Burgwork> ReMink, #ubuntu-motu can help you get that package into universe/multiverse
[12:50] <ReMink> Burgwork: oO :D
[12:57] <pianoboy3333> Where's a good pygtk/glade tutorial?
[01:00] <Kinnison> infinity: Well, you know where to leave stuff for me
[01:01] <Kinnison> ciau
[01:07] <infinity> Kinnison: 'Night.
[01:07] <robertj> has there been any discussion about trying to simplify MBR management through the gui?
[01:07] <eXistenZ> Burgwork, Translations, but also I want to contribute in adding multilingual support to some programs which don't support that option.
[01:08] <infinity> robertj: As a general rule, the MBR shouldn't BE managed.
[01:09] <infinity> robertj: If your system booted after you installed it (which we'll assume is a "yes", if you're now at a GUI), a pretty utility labelled "Allow me to attempt to make my system unbootable" seems like a bad idea.
[01:09] <robertj> infinity: that it does, but on a live cd or for a non-boot drive it might make more sense
[01:11] <Burgwork> eXistenZ, for translations, try #ubuntu-translators
[01:11] <Burgwork> eXistenZ, for the latter, file a bug and then work with upstream
[01:14] <Keybuk> I'm so going to win the award for the longest edgy spec
[01:15] <Burgwork> Keybuk, oh, which one?
[01:16] <Keybuk> ReplacementInit
[01:16] <Burgwork> oh, joy
[01:16] <Keybuk> I decided it needed another five sections
[01:16] <Keybuk> heh
[01:17] <infinity> Keybuk: Do you think I can write a spec called "DoMyJob" and just do that while everyone else is getting on with the whizzbang features?
[01:17] <Keybuk> infinity: I already do your job
[01:17] <infinity> Keybuk: Mm hmm. :)
[01:17] <Keybuk> all those bugs of yours I've fixed
[01:17] <Keybuk> those packages of yours I've uploaded

[01:17] <infinity> Keybuk: Thpt .:)
[01:19] <Keybuk> why does http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreNails sound like a spec?
[01:19] <Keybuk> clearly this beer is bad
[01:29] <eXistenZ> Burgwork, There is a major cups bug that hasn't yet been fixed, because of which I moved to windows temporarily until it is fixed.
[01:30] <Burgwork> eXistenZ, if you haven't filed a bug, I shame you into doing it now
[01:30] <eXistenZ> Burgwork, huh, I wish I was the only one who did.
[01:31] <eXistenZ> Burgwork, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/cupsys/+bug/45099
[01:31] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45099 in cupsys "client 1.2.0 to 1.1.2x server over IPP: cupsdAuthorize: Local authentication certificate not found" [Normal,Needs info]
[02:17] <zul> heylo
[02:17] <Who_> hi
[02:43] <KaiL_> any kernel-dev awake?
[02:44] <crimsun> -> #ubuntu-kernel
[03:03] <bddebian> Howdy
[03:03] <ajmitch> hi
[03:15] <Lathiat> 702M    ubuntu/ubuntu-6.06-desktop-powerpc.iso
[03:15] <Lathiat> thats too large for many cds, is that known?
[03:32] <jsgotangco> good morning
[03:32] <infinity> Lathiat: It fits on 700MB media.
[03:32] <infinity> Lathiat: We gave up on 650MB media long ago.
[03:32] <Lathiat> infinity: well someone has told me they couldnt get it to fit on a 700M cd for them
[03:33] <Lathiat> might depend on the exact media/software i guess
[03:33] <infinity> We certainly come in under the spec limit.
[03:33] <Lathiat> hrm, interesting
[03:34] <neuralis> Lathiat: an iso is an iso; it's size can't depend on media or software.
[03:34] <neuralis> s/it's/its/
[03:34] <Lathiat> neuralis: no but whether it will allow you to burn that size iso to the media certainly can
[03:35] <neuralis> Lathiat: if it doesn't, it's broken.
[03:35] <Lathiat> neuralis: im not disputing that :)
[03:37] <infinity> Which OS, burning software, etc was being used?
[03:37] <infinity> Could just be a bug.
[03:38] <infinity> Or buggy CDR drive firmware.
[03:38] <infinity> Who knows.
[03:39] <Lathiat> nautilus-cd burner on breezy, could have been smaller media i guess
[03:39] <Lathiat> i'll see
[03:39] <Lathiat> cheers infinity
[04:55] <SymGeosis> Could anybody point me to where the Ubuntu file system layout policy is? While it is generally fairly obvious by looking manually, I'd like the offical docs. My wiki and google searches didn't turn up much.
[04:57] <Fujitsu> SymGeosis, look for the Debian one, for starters.
[04:58] <SymGeosis> Yeah, that didn't turn up much either. Though, it undoubtedly exists so I somehow missed it.
[04:59] <infinity> SymGeosis: You want the FHS, there is no Ubuntu-specific standard (a standard with one vendor following it wouldn't make much sense.
[04:59] <infinity> )
[05:00] <SymGeosis> Yeah, I must be tired. I was just looking at Debian's page again. It's right at the top.
[05:52] <jcole> where is the dapper sparc mini.iso?
[05:53] <jcole> ie, here's the ia64 -> http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/dapper/main/installer-ia64/current/images/netboot/
[05:54] <jcole> ah, got it -> http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/dapper/main/installer-sparc/current/images/combined/2.6/
[05:56] <infinity> Note that sparc will (eventually) disappear from ubuntu-ports, since it's in the main archive now.
[05:58] <bddebian> LASERJOCK! :-)
[06:03] <LaserJock> bddebian:  jeeze, a little happy to see me?
[06:03] <bddebian> LaserJock: Always :-)
[06:30] <desrt> BenC, infinity, anyone?
[06:30] <WebMaven> Well, I'm here.
[06:31] <infinity> desrt: ?
[06:31] <desrt> infinity; i need the opinion of a kernel hacker
[06:31] <desrt> the problem is as follows
[06:31] <desrt> when my laptop comes back from sleep IRQ9 is high
[06:31] <infinity> desrt: You may want BenC... For my own sanity, I pretend to not know anything about the kernel.
[06:31] <infinity> (but go ahead anyway)
[06:31] <desrt> but the ACPI system doesnt think it ought to do anything about it
[06:31] <fabbione> desrt: your HW is broken
[06:32] <desrt> so i fixed this by always having ACPI 'ack' the IRQ even if it doesn't service it
[06:32] <desrt> but...
[06:32] <desrt> it's a level triggered IRQ
[06:32] <desrt> so my machine basically spends 30+% of its time servicing this IRQ
[06:32] <desrt> obviously not acceptable....
[06:32] <desrt> so next i started to check the ICH7 configuration registers for differences
[06:32] <desrt> (between powerdown and restart)
[06:32] <desrt> i noticed one difference -- the SCI_EN bit
[06:32] <desrt> before sleep it's enabled, after sleep it's disabled
[06:33] <desrt> and reenabling it causes the flood of IRQ9 to stop
[06:33] <desrt> so basically, i want to set SCI_EN on resume from sleep....
[06:33] <desrt> BUT....
[06:33] <desrt> i want this to go into the official version of the kernel (or possibly just dapper) and i need to know how i can make the code only effect my laptop
[06:34] <desrt> so that's my story.  plz help :)
[06:34] <infinity> Well, there are machine tables that can be used to white/blacklist out behaviours on different machines.
[06:34] <infinity> However...
[06:35] <infinity> If that register is being twiddled by the driver on init but not on resume, that's probably a general ICH7 bug, not specific to your machine.
[06:35] <desrt> right.
[06:35] <infinity> (Or does the driver never go near it, and your firmware is just setting up the hardware different depending on boot method?)
[06:36] <desrt> well
[06:36] <desrt> the driver knows what SCI_EN is
[06:37] <infinity> So, is it the driver that's twiddling that bit on a clean boot?
[06:37] <desrt> it only ever reads it, though
[06:37] <infinity> Or is the register "pre-twiddled" before Linux even loads?
[06:37] <desrt> no.  i think it's probably the bios.
[06:37] <infinity> Kay.
[06:37] <infinity> Is this still the MacBook Pro?
[06:37] <desrt> macbook (not pro)
[06:37] <infinity> Right, sorry.  MacBook Amateur. :)
[06:38] <desrt> maybe it makes sense to copy the value of the PM1 register (where the SCI_EN bit lives) just before suspend and restore it on resume
[06:38] <infinity> Before you go fixing Linux to work around firmware bugs, have you found somewhere to complain to Apple about it, in hopes that they'll fix the firmware and we will only have to work around the bug for a short while?
[06:39] <desrt> dur?
[06:39] <desrt> are you sure it's a firmware bug?
[06:39] <infinity> If on boot that bit's high, and in resume, it's low, and that's causing a never-ending level interrupt, I'd call it a bug.
[06:40] <infinity> But what do I know?
[06:40] <desrt> maybe it's high because BIOS sets it high
[06:40] <desrt> and maybe it's low because the BIOS doesn't run on resume
[06:40] <desrt> seems pretty reasonable to me
[06:40] <infinity> Err, it doesn't?
[06:41] <desrt> very very little BIOS runs on resume
[06:41] <infinity> (forgive me, I know nothing of MacBooks)
[06:41] <desrt> only really enough to jump to our wakeup trampoline
[06:41] <desrt> same on all systems
[06:41] <infinity> Well, enoiugh BIOS runs on most systems to bring the hardware back to a sane state, generally.
[06:42] <infinity> But yes, it's also sane for the driver to read registers that may corrupt, save state, and write them back out on resume.
[06:42] <infinity> And that should be safe for all ICH7 systems, rather than being specific to yours.
[06:42] <desrt> i say.
[06:42] <desrt> so now two questions:
[06:42] <desrt> what is the 'correct' place to insert this code
[06:43] <desrt> and how do i conditionalise it?
[06:44] <infinity> This is where we get into areas where you might want mjg59 or BenC, since I've never hacked at the sleep/resume stuff at all.
[06:44] <desrt> k.  i think they're both doing a sleep/resume cycle of their own right now :)
[07:36] <pitti> Good morning
[07:36] <Fujitsu> Hi, pitti!
[07:38] <ajmitch> morning pitti
[07:44] <pitti> hi Fujitsu, moin ajmitch!
[07:44] <Fujitsu> Hi.
[07:58] <desrt> rawr.
[07:58] <desrt> infinity; i've emailed the two of them now
[07:59] <desrt> in the meantime /me enjoys laptop nirvana
[08:06] <infinity> smbfs isn't LFS-enabled?
[08:07] <infinity> Guess it's time to switch to cifs...
[08:08] <dholbach> good morning
[08:11] <kagou> hi
[08:18] <tepsipakki> is 'landscape-client' related to the RHN-clone that is under construction in Montreal ?-)
[08:20] <infinity> tepsipakki: The package description should be enough to answer that.
[08:21] <tepsipakki> should, yes.. I'm just fishing for more information ;)
[08:56] <jadaz87> hm muy interesant
[09:30] <ivoks> pitti: ping
[09:30] <pitti> hi ivoks
[09:30] <ivoks> pitti: i noticed that cups works ok on older kernel
[09:30] <pitti> ivoks: in which regard?
[09:31] <ivoks> pitti: e.g. 2.6.9
[09:31] <ivoks> pitti: browsing/printing with older cups 1.1.x
[09:31] <ivoks> same network, same config
[09:31] <ivoks> on one comp it works, on other it doesn't
[09:31] <pitti> oh, interesting
[09:31] <ivoks> on the one that works - 2.6.9 kernel
[09:31] <pitti> ivoks: but wasn't 1.2.1 supposed to fix this?
[09:31] <ivoks> i'm installing dapper kernel to confirm this
[09:32] <ivoks> pitti: it doesn't :/
[09:32] <ivoks> i even compiled from source, no change
[09:32] <ivoks> and guys at easysw can't reproduce our problems
[09:32] <ivoks> so... must be something else :)
[09:33] <pitti> oh, right, I meant browsing/printing with cups 1.1.x
[09:33] <ivoks> the thing is that easysw is aware of problems with cups <=1.1.17
[09:33] <ivoks> but we have problems with every cups that's not 1.2
[09:34] <pitti> ivoks: that's frightening
[09:34] <ivoks> tell me about it...
[09:34] <ivoks> i'm fighting with that for days...
[09:34] <ivoks> i'll test this with new kernel later today...
[09:41] <pitti> hey seb128
[09:42] <seb128> hi pitti
[09:43] <ivoks> well, will be back later today...
[10:22] <Kaloz> Failed to fetch http://hu.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux-source-2.6.15/linux-source-2.6.15_2.6.15-23.39.diff.gz  Could not open file linux-source-2.6.15_2.6.15-23.39.diff.gz - open (13 Permission denied)
[10:22] <Kaloz> *g*
[10:22] <Kaloz> oh, okay.. our proxy redirected it
[10:22] <Kaloz> :p
[10:27] <Kinnison> Morning all
[10:27] <mdke> morning
[10:28] <ajmitch> hi
[10:30] <mdke> Znarl: around?
[10:47] <Kamion> KaiL_: I don't understand your suggestion on CommunityEdgyIdeas/Kernel: "Squash FS support compiled into it"
[10:47] <Kamion> KaiL_: we *have* squashfs support in our kernel (ok, as a module, but everything is a module where it sanely can be, and that can't really change), otherwise our live CD wouldn't work
[10:52] <ogra> fabbione, ping
[10:52] <fabbione> ogra: ?
[10:53] <ogra> fabbione, are you aware of any heavy breakage of SiS cards ?
[10:53] <ogra> seems i have a user where the install breaks as soon as dexconf starts for hist card ...
[10:53] <fabbione> ogra: as of 1st of June i am not the X maintainer anylonger... kthxbye
[10:54] <fabbione> ogra: since it's up for adoption and you are the first one mentioning it, i guess you win :)
[10:54] <ogra> either in the usual install (workstation) or even if the chroot building of the thin client runs
[10:54] <ogra> hrm ...
[10:54] <dholbach> fabbione: that doesn't answer his question :-p
[10:54] <ogra> i just didnt find any bugs that are directly assigned to xserver-xorg-sis
[10:54] <jono> hi all
[10:55] <fabbione> ogra: i am pretty sure you want to look at xorg...
[10:55] <jono> has anyone been doing any kind of competative analysis of Dapper compared to Vista?
[10:55] <dholbach> ogra: how about  https://launchpad.net/malone/distros/ubuntu?field.searchtext=xserver-xorg-driver-sis&search=Search ?
[10:55] <fabbione> dholbach: well.. today is bank holiday.. so it's not like i am here.. you just imagine i am
[10:55] <ogra> fabbione, will do ... but its seemed very card specific, so i looked at the driver first, thanks
[10:55] <fabbione> +
[10:56] <fabbione> on the 6/6/6 you expect ME to do something sane?
[10:56] <Daemon> jono: there were a few reviews around I believe that had a few comparisons, none that I know of since the full 6.06 release
[10:56] <ajmitch> heh
[10:56] <highvoltage> jono: i haven't seen someone write about it in-depth yet, but it's on the minds of many people
[10:56] <dholbach> fabbione: I see - I just commented on your answer to a "are you aware of ..." question :-)
[10:56] <jono> I am wrapping some projects up here, and if I get some time I figured it may be useful to do a shot by shot comparison to identify areas in which we can hammer edgy home :)
[10:56] <ajmitch> fabbione: I'm surprised you haven't found a willing maintainer yet
[10:57] <ogra> dholbach, yes, thats what i was loopking at yesterday ... seems to have nothing in the list
[10:57] <jono> I spent some time at Microsoft in Reading and used it and figured we need some assessment of Vista to help Edgy kick its arse :)
[10:57] <ogra> dholbach, 60 on 666 ? thats evil :)
[10:57] <fabbione> ajmitch: i guess you just volunteered :)
[10:57] <dholbach> ogra: *I* know
[10:57] <ajmitch> fabbione: do I look that crazy to you? :)
[10:57] <fabbione> ajmitch: yes
[10:57] <ajmitch> no need to answer that..
[10:57] <fabbione> or are tyou trying to say that i am crazy?
[10:57] <mjg59> jono: Can we secure your support in the RSS-pronunciation movement?
[10:58] <mdke> jono: there is a marketing team, sort of. they might be interested in helping you out
[10:58] <ajmitch> fabbione: you'd be crazy if you wanted to keep it all for yourself
[10:58] <jono> mjg59: wah?
[10:58] <mdke> jono: or are you more talking technical analysis than marketing?
[10:58] <jono> mdke: oh cool
[10:58] <jono> mdke: well, I was thinking primarily technical and usability
[10:58] <ogra> dholbach, btw, seen bug 47638 and bug 47336 (seems there are more of these )
[10:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47638 in Ubuntu "Artifacts on application buttons" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47638
[10:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47336 in edubuntu-artwork "Redraws doesn't happen properly with Edubuntu GTK Theme" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47336
[10:58] <dholbach> ogra: yes, that's ati breakage
[10:59] <dholbach> ogra: xrender and ati - all dups
[10:59] <ogra> ah, then it seems restricted to i386
[10:59] <mdke> jono, quite a lot of usability issues depend on upstream tho
[10:59] <ogra> i dont see it on the ibook
[10:59] <mjg59> jono: http://mjg59.livejournal.com/62931.html
[10:59] <mjg59> And the link
[10:59] <ogra> dholbach, thanks
[11:00] <dholbach> ogra: maybe specific to a certain hardware - *shrug*
[11:00] <ogra> yep ...
[11:00] <jono> mdke: agreed, but I was thinking the problem could be split into integration and upstream functionality - some elements we can control, but some need upstream cooperation
[11:00] <mdke> right
[11:01] <jono> who knows, if I get time to do this, it may not be actually all that useful, but I figured it would be something that could provide some food for thought
[11:01] <jono> just need to open up my schedule a bit first :P
[11:01] <makko> sabdfl: fedora and suse first release a non-commercial version and then they release a commercial one with most bugs fixed. i think the fact that they have two releases helps them a lot with perfecting their commercial release. i think it is very useful for ubuntu to also implement this strategy: first to have a HACKER'S RELEASE (or something like that; a bleeding edge release) and then, after about one month of bug fixing, have a longer time s
[11:01] <makko> g like that).
[11:03] <makko> sabdfl: otherwise, if we keep on releasing many flights or betas (the names of which don't sound so appealing for most users, so they won't download and try them), they will prefer to download none of them.
[11:03] <makko> sabdfl: i am afraid so many flights more like confuse them.
[11:03] <Mithrandir> makko: well, we won't release any more flights now, so..
[11:04] <mdke> what's a group of efts?
[11:04] <Mithrandir> mdke: I'm not sure, and I don't think anybody else is either.
[11:04] <Daemon> makko: I think that's sorta in place, in fact edgy will start soon enough
[11:04] <Mithrandir> mdke: so we might have to invent something.
[11:04] <makko> Mithrandir: no flights will be released for edgy?
[11:04] <mdke> heh
[11:04] <mdke> jono: i listened to lugradio last night, was quite interesting. I haven't listened much before. I enjoyed the discussion on the FSF
[11:05] <jono> mdke: cool :)
[11:05] <jono> mdke: the latest episode was fun to record :)
[11:05] <mdke> it sounds fun
[11:06] <Mithrandir> makko: nope.  Like we didn't release any arrays or colonies for dapper.
[11:06] <mdke> makko: they will be releasing unstable releases, but they will be called something else. "flight" was a word specific to dapper drake
[11:06] <mdke> at least I hope they will be releasing unstable releases
[11:07] <makko> mdke: whatever, but what do you think about my idea?
[11:07] <mdke> makko: I don't have a view. I know nothing about release cycles
[11:08] <makko> mdke: who's responsible for release cycles?
[11:08] <Mithrandir> makko: I think it's a bad idea.  We get great responses to the alpha and beta releases and the team is too small for us to be able to do the QA and test for a month after a preview release.
[11:09] <mjg59> jono: Really, I just want to hear you describe Web 2.0 as a bunch of RSS on air
[11:10] <jono> mjg59: you got it :)
[11:10] <mdke> haha
[11:10] <mjg59> And ideally mention a lugradio RSS feed
[11:10] <jono> heh
[11:11] <makko> Mithrandir: well, maybe not a month, but two weeks.
[11:11] <mjg59> Which can be sucked using a variety of clients
[11:11] <mjg59> But anyway
[11:11] <jono> I don't know if I want to say, "keep up to date with LUGRadio episodes with arse"
[11:11] <jono> right, back to work...
[11:11] <jono> have fun guys
[11:11] <Mithrandir> makko: how is this different from the tech preview/beta and release we have today?
[11:12] <makko> Mithrandir: the naming matters a lot
[11:12] <makko> Mithrandir: we want it to be the equivalent of redhat's and novel's commercial version, right?
[11:12] <makko> Mithrandir: i mean, we want the final release to be that
[11:13] <Daemon> makko: from a personal opinion, I like the current version of development where you just enable the newer repositories and keep updating.
[11:13] <makko> Daemon: what i suggest doesn't affect that
[11:13] <Mithrandir> makko: no, we want it to be better.  We _don't_ want to have a "normal" and an "enterprise" version.
[11:14] <Daemon> makko: have you seen how old some of the redhat versions are though?  That's what put me off the commercial releases
[11:14] <Daemon> versions as in package / software versions
[11:14] <ubijtsa2> Daemon: there is a reason for that
[11:14] <makko> Mithrandir: no, we don't want that. instead, we want to have a HACKER'S RELEASE (bleeding edge) and a LTS RELEASE (or something)
[11:15] <Mithrandir> makko: why?
[11:15] <makko> Mithrandir: some users prefer novelty, some others prefer stability
[11:15] <ubijtsa2> Daemon: most notably banks and financial institutions do not want to update every 3-6 months.. they want to update every 2-3 years
[11:15] <Mithrandir> makko: we don't have the resources to make two different versions with different goals, so we have to make a tradeoff
[11:16] <makko> Mithrandir: we can address both while this can also bring to us lots of more beta testers (which otherwise will hate the "beta" labeling and will prefer to wait for the "final" release until they try it first)
[11:16] <makko> Mithrandir: i understand
[11:16] <makko> Mithrandir: i haven't considered resources.
[11:16] <Daemon> ubijtsa: I understand that side of it, but at the time they're already 6 months behind when they first install
[11:16] <makko> Mithrandir: well, but what if it's more like a matter of naming? the LTS will be a tweaked HACKER'S anyway.
[11:17] <makko> Mithrandir: a HACKER'S could be another name for PREVIEW.
[11:17] <makko> Daemon: some people prefer to stay six months behind
[11:17] <ubijtsa2> Daemon: tracking latest and greatest isn't an option for some, quite a lot are still on RHEL3
[11:17] <Daemon> ubijtsa2: agree. O
[11:17] <makko> Mithrandir, Daemon: a HACKER'S RELEASE sounds... quite appealing for much more people
[11:18] <Daemon> I'm probably looking at it too much from a desktop pov
[11:18] <Mithrandir> makko: I don't think so.
[11:18] <mdke> makko: appealing in that the word "hacker" is commonly associated with criminal attacks on computers?
[11:18] <ubijtsa2> peronally, I prefer the 6 month release schedule. But the work I do now requires me to think of the ones that require the long term stability, like the LTS releases.
[11:18] <Daemon> makko: not to me, considering linux is meant to be the distro that's human friendly
[11:18] <makko> Mithrandir: then we can chose another name for it, it's just that we should make it more like a purpose in itself, rather than a mere... beta.
[11:19] <makko> Mithrandir: people love attained purposes more than unfinished products.
[11:19] <mdke> but these products are unfinished, that's the whole reason they are called "beta"
[11:19] <Mithrandir> makko: you're arguing that its purpose is to get testers.  Testers test stuff which is not finished, aka alphas and betas.
[11:19] <makko> mdke: ok, i am not proposing the word "hacker", but <some appealing naming>.
[11:20] <Kamion> mdke: the best two suggestions I have are "knot" (used for other amphibians, frogs/toads) and maybe "nest" (but that's just based on the fact that efts nest, it's not a real collective noun)
[11:20] <ubijtsa2> how about the idea that was floated a while back, every fourth release is a LTS, gets much more QA etc, and the three intermediate releases are Desktop releases, more cutting edge stuff, more focussed on new stuff.
[11:20] <makko> Mithrandir: yes, but we might also need feedback from casual users and casual problems. the more the eyeballs, the shallower the bugs.
[11:20] <Kamion> my inclination is "knot"
[11:20] <Mithrandir> Kamion: knot sounds like a good name to me.
[11:21] <Kamion> ubijtsa2: we'll do occasional LTS releases when it makes sense to do so; we aren't going to tie ourselves to "every fourth", appealing though the regularity may be
[11:21] <ogra> yeah, lets keep nest for the time we run out of suggestions :)
[11:21] <jsgotangco> makko: honestly, not that its bad, casual users tend to file dupes
[11:21] <makko> Mithrandir: for instance, this dapper lts still has some bugs which *could* have been detected much earlier if we had released an "appealing" version of dapper one month earlier.
[11:21] <ubijtsa2> Kamion: I hear you, but some form of regularity (2-3 years) would be beneficial
[11:21] <makko> jsgotangco: maybe you're right
[11:22] <Mithrandir> makko: it's often less that we don't know of the bugs than that we don't have time to fix them.  More bugs doesn't mean more fixes.
[11:22] <jsgotangco> we actually released a "Release Candidate" for general use and testing
[11:22] <Mithrandir> s/bugs/bug reports/
[11:22] <Kamion> ubijtsa2: it has to depend on when everything seems to be settling down to a place where we think we can commit to long-term support
[11:22] <makko> Mithrandir: well, that's a good point
[11:22] <Kamion> hopefully there'll be an appropriate point in about two or three years time
[11:23] <makko> jsgotangco: yes, but we released it just one week before the final release. nobody has time to fix anything in less than seven days.
[11:23] <ubijtsa2> Kamion: would it be possible to keep it in mind while working on the Desktop releases, to slowly steer it into a LTS release, maybe 18 months before making it a LTS?
[11:23] <makko> jsgotangco: and why not naming it something else than "release candidate"?
[11:23] <Kamion> makko: I disagree strongly. Particularly with regard to ubiquity, I got just about as many bugs as I could possibly deal with in each iteration (beta, beta2, flight7, rc), and fixed all the ones I considered high-priority and several more
[11:24] <ajmitch> ubijtsa2: it's a matter of when other parts of the system seem to be at a stable point, like X, the kernel, etc
[11:24] <jsgotangco> return of the release candidate?
[11:24] <Kamion> makko: the problem was that the nature of the beast was such that I didn't find out about crashes late in the program's operation until I'd fixed the ones earlier in its operation
[11:24] <Kamion> makko: actually we fixed several things between rc and release
[11:24] <ajmitch> ubijtsa2: I don't think we'll have crazy insane stuff in all the releases up until an LTS release :)
[11:24] <makko> Kamion: right. as i said, saying that "it's not like we don't get enough bug reports, it's just that we lack resources to fix them" is really a good point.
[11:25] <Kamion> ubijtsa2: I expect we'll be thinking about it, yes
[11:25] <makko> Kamion: i think two weeks instead of one would have been much better...
[11:25] <ubijtsa2> ajmitch: just thinking, if we know that we'd like rel+2 to be a LTS, don't include highly volatile stuff in rel and rel+1 just because they are cool :)
[11:25] <makko> Kamion: i mean more than twice
[11:26] <ajmitch> ubijtsa2: yep, I think that's how it's planned, which is why edgy will be rather.. edgy
[11:26] <ubijtsa2> ajmitch: sounds sensible.
[11:27] <Kamion> makko: releasing dapper in December would have got more bugs fixed too
[11:28] <Kamion> makko: but it would also have weakened the impetus on people from knowing that the release was soon
[11:28] <Kamion> makko: you can't extend things forever
[11:28] <Kamion> and honestly, we weren't *ready* for RC two weeks before release
[11:30] <ubijtsa2> a release can't be perfect in all aspects.. it'll take forever if that is the aim.
[11:30] <stub> Launchpad will be going down for its regular code update in 30mins time. Estimated downtime is 10 minutes. Wikis will be in read only mode during this time.
[11:30] <jsgotangco> thanks
[11:30] <makko> Kamion: this is somehow strange: some other distros release even two rcs, not to emphasise that there was a six weeks' delay
[11:31] <ubijtsa2> risk management, and structure for updates and security fixes is important..
[11:31] <makko> Mithrandir, Daemon, mdke, ubijtsa2, Kamion, ajmitch: anyway, in fact, if i think better, i guess my suggestion is redundant. i think this is what is already intended by the LTS-like / EDGY-like distinction between releases. right?
[11:34] <Kamion> makko: *shrug*
[11:35] <Kamion> fundamentally most distros just chuck out test releases until they're ready to go
[11:35] <Kamion> where "ready" is determined by all sorts of different things
[11:36] <ubijtsa2> cmp with the kernel, they do -rc after -rc until the concensus is that it is good enough.
[11:36] <Kamion> everyone's release process is different in some way
[11:36] <mdke> from the little I've seen, open source development is pretty fast moving, and it's pretty hard to tame it. I imagine that release processes are an art form
[11:36] <Kamion> there are hundreds of different ways to paint this bikeshed
[11:38] <Mithrandir> can I have it ice-blue with penguins on?
[11:48] <stub>  Launchpad Rollout cancelled, rescheduled for tomorrow around 03:00 UTC
[12:48] <mdke> Znarl: around yet?
[12:51] <Znarl> mdke : Hello!
[12:52] <mdke> Znarl: hello :)
[12:52] <mdke> Znarl: do you think it would be a good idea for me to open an RT for this wiki thing, or maybe arrange a time which is convenient to you to discuss?
[12:53] <Znarl> mdke : A RT request may be a good idea.
[12:54] <mdke> Znarl: alright. Is there a technical problem, or just lakc of time?
[12:54] <eXistenZ> any developer responsible for the cups package here?
[12:54] <Znarl> mdke : Lack of time.
[12:54] <mdke> Znarl: ok, cool, I'll RT it
[12:54] <pitti> eXistenZ: I'm the closest one
[12:54] <eXistenZ> pitti, there is a major bug in cups. Which hasn't been fixed
[12:54] <pitti> eXistenZ: just one? :)
[12:55] <pitti> eXistenZ: seriously, is it in LP already?
[12:55] <eXistenZ> pitti, Here it the bug: https://launchpad.net/bugs/45099 . It is very irritating that I have to move to windows everytime I want to print some document.
[12:55] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45099 in cupsys "client 1.2.0 to 1.1.2x server over IPP: cupsdAuthorize: Local authentication certificate not found" [Normal,Needs info]
[12:55] <pitti> eXistenZ: I plan to update dapper to 1.2.1 soon, but I need to catch up with some security updates before; also, I'll do a round of bug triage for cups bugs soon
[12:56] <eXistenZ> pitti, That'll be gret.
[12:56] <eXistenZ> *great
[12:56] <pitti> Ubugtu: I have seen this error message regularly in my logs, but it doesn't have any ill effect
[12:56] <pitti> eXistenZ: anyway, I'll look at the bug ASAP
[12:56] <eXistenZ> pitti, When do you think the cups will be upgraded?
[12:57] <pitti> eXistenZ: the last comments seem to indicate that this error message is irrelevant
[12:57] <pitti> eXistenZ: end of this week, I hope
[12:57] <eXistenZ> pitti, What do you think this error is about?
[12:58] <pitti> eXistenZ: I have to read the bug in detail
[12:58] <pitti> eXistenZ: it's on my list, but I can't do it right now, sorry
[12:58] <eXistenZ> pitti, I get the same error, but with "stopped with status 3!"
[12:58] <eXistenZ> pitti, that's okay.
[12:58] <TheMuso> c
[12:58] <eXistenZ> pitti, By the way, do you use vim or emacs? :)
[12:59] <pitti> eXistenZ: vim, why?
[12:59] <eXistenZ> pitti, I'm use vim as well =)
[01:26] <jono> anyone know John Levin ?
[01:26] <InfraRed> who doesn't
[01:26] <jono> what is his nick >
[01:26] <Treenaks> jono: isn't he lilo?
[01:27] <Treenaks> oh wait, that's Rob
[01:27] <Treenaks> nm
[01:27] <jono> hi is a UK ubuntu guy
[01:27] <InfraRed> isn't he the guy in pirates of the caribbean ?
[01:27] <jono> heh
[01:27] <jono> any half way serious answers ?
[01:27] <apokryphos> John Levin is lilo
[01:27] <Riddell> jono: he's not on IRC much as far as I know
[01:27] <jono> ok
[01:27] <apokryphos> oh wait, that's Rob Levin
[01:27] <jono> Riddell: did you want to do a KDE/Kubuntu BOF?
[01:28] <Riddell> jono: but he did the lugradio stand last year for ubuntu
[01:28] <jono> cool
[01:28] <jono> Riddell: do you have his email address?
[01:28] <jono> I need to mail him about Ubuntu BOFs
[01:28] <Riddell> jono: I think a stand and a talk will be enough for KDE/Kubuntu
[01:28] <jono> just firmiing up the times
[01:28] <Riddell> john levin<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:28] <jono> Riddell: cool
[01:28] <jono> thanks dude
[01:30] <mdke> jono: get on the ubuntu-uk list!
[01:33] <jono> mdke: I should be, but my mail is rather maxed out with lists atm
[01:33] <jono> right, lunch :P
[01:38] <mdke> jono: would be a good place to drum up a bit of enthusiasm for LRL. Maybe a newsreader would be in order :)
[01:54] <zul> heylo
[01:59] <_ion> hilow
[02:00] <pitti> hi zul
[02:01] <highvoltage> hey zul
[02:03] <zul> pitti: still no upload yet?
[02:03] <pitti> zul: no :/
[02:03] <zul> meh
[02:14] <pitti> carlos: ok, daily hoary/breezy/dapper langpack updates set up and cron'ed. I wait for today's run and check the results; shall I announce this to ubuntu-translators again, then?
[02:15] <jsgotangco> \o/ pitti \o/
[02:15] <carlos> pitti: I think so, yes
[02:15] <carlos> pitti: thanks!
[02:21] <sivang> re all
[02:26] <purserj> Quick question, why with fresh dapper installs is there no ld.so.conf file?
[02:26] <kermitX_> minor bug in the gnome bittorrent client?  if you uncap the upload rate and later re-check that option, the cap never takes effect. you have to shut it down and restart it.
[02:27] <_ion> purserj: Why should there be one?
[02:27] <purserj> In my understanding you need it for linking libraries if you're building from source
[02:28] <_ion> DESCRIPTION ldconfig  creates  the  necessary  links and cache (for use by the run-time linker, ld.so) to the most recent shared libraries found in the directories specified on the command line, in the file /etc/ld.so.conf, and  in  the  trusted directories  (/usr/lib  and  /lib).
[02:28] <_ion> The libraries are typically in those directories.
[02:29] <_ion> \therefore no need for ld.so.conf
[02:29] <purserj> so if there are libraries in say /usr/local/lib?
[02:29] <_ion> Don't put libraries there.
[02:29] <_ion> Rather use or create packages.
[02:29] <tseng> and if you do
[02:29] <tseng> you should know how to manage them yourself
[02:31] <purserj> why the change?
[02:31] <_ion> What change?
[02:32] <purserj> the removal of ld.so.conf. It was in breezy but not in dapper?
[02:32] <tseng> it wasnt in breezy
[02:32] <tseng> not in a server install anyway.
[02:33] <tseng> in the future, please pose support questions to #ubuntu
[02:33] <purserj> not a support question, something like this is pretty integral to development on ubuntu
[02:34] <_ion> This channel is about Ubuntu development, not about development on Ubuntu.
[02:34] <_ion> See the topic.
[02:34] <tseng> exageration doesn't help you, i have been developing on ubuntu for 2 years and I don't have such a file
[02:54] <jono> Only 46 days until LugRadio Live!
[02:54] <jono> oops
[02:54] <jono> wrong chan
[02:55] <sivang> Kamion: Just something for you to think about, IBM .IL Global Tech Group are allowing me to use their testing lab, when I'll choose, to test Ubuntu on the pSeries, so I thought we could arrange a day in which I will conduct boot testing etc, I will provide you with the error messages from my attempts , and you might try to provide me fixed small testing ISOs, so we can at least get the booting thing behind us. Do you think this is feasible to kil
[02:55] <Keybuk> pitti: how do you feel about sysklogd and LFS support (or lack thereof)
[02:59] <zul> hey Hobbsee
[02:59] <Hobbsee> hey zul
[03:02] <ajmitch> hello Hobbsee
[03:03] <Hobbsee> hey ajmitch, how are you doing?
[03:03] <Kamion> sivang: your message was cut off at "feasible to kil"
[03:03] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: going off to sleep in a minute or so
[03:03] <pitti> Keybuk: oh, how big do you expect log files to grow? :)
[03:03] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: mmm...sleep...
[03:07] <Kamion> sivang: sure, whenever, just note that I will be on holiday and offline all of next week
[03:08] <Keybuk> pitti: apparently on a news server it's quite common for them to get >2GB
[03:08] <thom> heh
[03:08] <thom> understatement of the hour
[03:09] <Keybuk> like Clara's news server
[03:09] <pitti> Keybuk: well, of course I'd welcome it :) you have a patch?
[03:09] <Keybuk> pitti: I was looking through the changelog, apparently we've tried to fix this already
[03:09] <Keybuk> well, Charles Majola tried to fix it
[03:09] <Keybuk> so it may need some gentle repair work <g>
[03:09] <Keybuk> I only ping'd you, because you tried to fix it before Charles did
[03:10] <pitti> oh, did I?
[03:10] <pitti> Keybuk: if I did, I lost all memory about it
[03:10] <Keybuk> was pre-breezy
[03:11] <pitti> Keybuk: one of etch's goals is full LFS support, so from that side we have good opportunities to watch out for :)
[03:11] <thom> actually, the transit servers appear to be averaging just under 2GB per day transit logs from diablo
[03:12] <doko> mdz, Kamion: is qt-x11-free still sitting in the dapper-updates queue, or did I do a mistake uploading the package?
[03:15] <Kamion> doko: http://librarian.launchpad.net/3008685/iRLv1uVqy6JbBjIsZa6PNOLwRTO.txt
[03:15] <Kamion> guessing you forgot to sign it
[03:15] <doko> Kamion: thanks
[03:15] <Kamion> yep, looks like it
[03:25] <mdke> elmo: around?
[03:28] <iwj> pitti: I asked mdz for permission to put <IP_ADDRESS> into dapper-updates and he demurred and asked what your opinion was.  I am right in thinking that your opinion is like mine, `unfortunately we have no choice so we should do so'.
[03:28] <iwj> ?
[03:28] <pitti> iwj: well, I'd rather like to see it in dapper-security
[03:29] <iwj> Is that more pushy than -updates ?  In which case I agree.
[03:29] <pitti> iwj: and yes, we'll have enough to do with backporting this sh** to 1.0.x, I'm all for updating dapper to <IP_ADDRESS> (after appropriate testing, of course)
[03:29] <pitti> iwj: we just need to make sure to not break gtkmozembed stuff
[03:29] <pitti> iwj: 'pushy'?
[03:29] <iwj> Not to break it worse than it is, you mean.
[03:30] <iwj> I mean, is putting something in -security more likely to cause it to be installed than putting it in -updates.
[03:30] <pitti> iwj: well, it fixes two handfuls of security bugs, so it should be -security
[03:30] <iwj> testing> Quite.
[03:30] <pitti> iwj: ah; well, nowadays -updates and -security are both on by default, so it doesn't matter so much from that perspective
[03:30] <iwj> I have a pre-build here and I'll just turn it into a proper package and test it.
[03:30] <iwj> Right.
[03:30] <iwj> OK, I'll target dapper-security then.
[03:31] <iwj> mdz: Re firefox <IP_ADDRESS>, see ^
[03:31] <pitti> -security is announced with an USN and instantly mirrored to security.u.c, that's the main difference
[03:31] <pitti> iwj: and opting out of -updates is regarded fine, whereas noone should deactivate -security
[03:32] <Kamion> yeah, what pitti said, I think -security is marginally pushier
[03:32] <iwj> Right, good.
[03:35] <pitti> iwj: btw, dapper-security doesn't work yet, I'll ping you once it does
[03:35] <pitti> iwj: did you get the CVE changelog snippet?
[03:36] <iwj> Yes.  Hence my question.
[03:36] <iwj> dapper-security> Oh, right.  OK.  I'll build and test this thing in the meantime anyway.
[03:44] <mdke> elmo: unping
[03:45] <G0SUB> pitti: hello!
[03:48] <pitti> hello G0SUB, how are you?
[03:49] <G0SUB> pitti: I am fine now.
[03:49] <pitti> G0SUB: glad to hear; I heard from the terribly strong Monsun in the radio
[03:49] <G0SUB> pitti: I have written down some of my ideas in the DesignDiscussion page
[03:50] <G0SUB> pitti: yeah, Monsoon is coming here :)
[03:51] <mdke> jdub: just saw your email (my email is going to the wrong server too like planet) - *winces at linguistic faux pas*
[03:54] <pitti> mvo, G0SUB: can we 'meet' in 30 minutes to discuss about it?
[03:54] <G0SUB> pitti: I am already in a meeting with mvo in #synaptic :)
[03:55] <mvo> pitti: I'm writing a mail about it currently, can we do it in ~1h ?
[03:55] <mvo> pitti: I'll CC you then
[03:55] <pitti> G0SUB: ok, I'll join :)
[03:55] <G0SUB> great
[03:55] <pitti> mvo: works for me, although I will only have 30 minutes then; G0SUB, ok?
[03:55] <G0SUB> pitti: fine
[04:00] <dholbach> ogra: there's a new gnome-screensaver for -updates
[04:01] <ogra> oooohhh :)
[04:01] <ogra> dholbach, ta
[04:01] <dholbach> de rien
[04:19] <dholbach> liboobs 0.1.0 RELEASE!
[04:19] <dholbach> mvo: ^
[04:19] <jsgotangco> nice
[04:19] <jsgotangco> does it go with libsexy?
[04:19] <pitti> dholbach: liboops? :)
[04:19] <mdke> boobs eh
[04:19] <pitti> oh, libboobs
[04:19] <pitti> dholbach: everything below version 2.0 is UNUSABLE!
[04:19] <dholbach> jsgotangco: both go nicely with Ubuntu!
[04:20] <jsgotangco> dholbach: then it should integrate well with pornview nicely
[04:23] <mvo> dholbach: yeah!
[04:25] <thom> i still think the parrott "-larry -Wall" one was best
[04:25] <pitti> thom: there is a libarry? :)
[04:26] <thom> pitti: they concocted one so they could have that in the compiler flags
[04:27] <makko> why can't i connect to the x11 server in a root konsole (after i run "sudo konsole")? after i run "sudo konsole", i cannot open any x11 app from that konsole; but, after i run "sudo xterm", i can run any x11 app. how do you explain that? it doesn't look like a permissions issue to me.
[04:33] <Hobbsee> here you go..
[04:33] <ivoks> eh...
[04:33] <ivoks> i suggest we use lprng for edgy
[04:34] <ivoks> :)
[04:34] <makko> answer! i know you are there! :P
[04:34] <ivoks> brb
[04:42] <ogra> dholbach, do you know if g-s-s goes in with the general 2.14.2 upgrade or do i need to ask for separate permission from mdz ?
[04:44] <leo__> Hi , I'm customizing a 5.10 live cd and I want to set my XkbLayout to "be" in my xorg.conf , how do i do this?
[04:44] <dholbach> ogra: it's a 2.14.2 and if you can eyeball the changes and vouch for them, they're good to go, I'd say
[04:45] <tseng> dholbach++
[04:45] <tseng> hi
[04:45] <dholbach> heya tseng
[04:54] <jdong|coreduo> how many runlevel 2 services does gdm actually depend upon?
[04:55] <jdong|coreduo> just for kicks, I moved S13gdm to S01gdm, and it does work
[04:55] <jdong|coreduo> I've tested 10 bootups across two of my (faster) systems
[04:56] <pitti> jdong|coreduo: X needs a properly set hostname, so it should depend on working network
[04:56] <ogra> where did these come from, there is only one S13gdm in rc2.d on all my systems here
[04:56] <jdong|coreduo> ogra: yeah, I know. I moved it from 13 to 01, so the first thing it does is start up GDM in runlevel 2
[04:57] <jdong|coreduo> pitti: what would "happen" if hostname was localhost?
[04:57] <jdong|coreduo> or unset?
[04:57] <pitti> jdong|coreduo: I don't know TBH, I'm just parroting Daniel Stone
[04:57] <ogra> jdong|coreduo, lol, sorry i read removed instead of moved
[04:58] <jdong|coreduo> also, hostname is done in rcS, right?
[04:58] <jdong|coreduo> ok
[04:58] <jdong|coreduo> it shaves around 3-5 seconds to a login prompt
[04:59] <jdong|coreduo> so no big deal at all
[04:59] <jdong|coreduo> but it looks damn impressive :)
[04:59] <jdong|coreduo> dapper's bootup is already plenty fast out-of-the-box
[05:00] <jdong|coreduo> out of curiousity, are we to see GNOME 2.14.x updates through dapper-updates?
[05:01] <jdong|coreduo> it sure is beginning to look that way
[05:02] <HiddenWolf> jdong|coreduo: I believe so
[05:02] <jdong|coreduo> excellent :)
[05:02] <jdong|coreduo> good to see some bug fixes
[05:03] <HiddenWolf> jdong|coreduo: dapper's nautilus is plenty screwed. :P
[05:03] <bddebian> Morning folks
[05:04] <jdong|coreduo> HiddenWolf: at least it uploads binary data fine :)
[05:04] <jdong|coreduo> so I won't complain too much :)
[05:04] <jdong|coreduo> morning, bddebian
[05:04] <bddebian> Hello jdong|coreduo
[05:05] <jdong|coreduo> are there plans for Edgy to use Initng?
[05:06] <jdong|coreduo> or do we think we can get init to boot even faster?
[05:06] <ivoks> pitti: good news
[05:08] <mjg59> jdong|coreduo: If the hostname isn't set when X starts, there's the potential for authentication cookies to break in surprising ways
[05:08] <bddebian> Is Edgy ready yet??
[05:09] <tseng> bddebian: subscribe to edgy-changes and you can be the first to know
[05:10] <bddebian> pfft ;-)
[05:15] <ivoks> pitti: wb
[05:15] <pitti> bah
[05:15] <pitti> thanks
[05:15] <ivoks> pitti: so, good news :)
[05:15] <profoXP> Hello. How does the current suspend work ? (suspend to disk) is it using swsusp or suspend2 or ..?
[05:16] <profoXP> Because it doesn't work well on all 4 pc's in my house (2 laptops, 2 pc's)
[05:16] <ivoks> profoXP: that mostly depends on video card you have and video driver you use
[05:17] <profoXP> ivoks, 3 pcs use ATI (2x fglrx [proprietary] , 1x radeon [too old for fglrx] ), one uses Nvidia (nvidia [proprietary] ).
[05:17] <thom> bah, the tailor in dapper doesn't work with bzr 0.8
[05:18] <ivoks> profoXP: that's 5, not 4 :)
[05:18] <ivoks> profoXP: and this conversation is for #ubuntu, so let's continue it there, ok?
[05:18] <profoXP> ivoks, are you sure
[05:18] <profoXP> ivoks, well, they pointed me here
[05:18] <profoXP> lol
[05:34] <leo__> how is your xorg.conf generated on a livecd ?
[05:35] <iwj> Just to confirm, we're expecting to have the distro meeting on Thursday at 0800Z ?
[05:35] <sfllaw> That's what the calendar says.
[05:35] <ogra> Z?
[05:35] <sfllaw> Zulu time.
[05:35] <ogra> heh
[05:44] <Keybuk> mjg59: ping?
[05:49] <Kamion> thom: IIRC they created an 'arry' directory so they could use -Larry
[05:51] <Kamion> iwj: yes, that's what https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-May/000142.html says, and as far as I know there've been no changes to that
[05:52] <thom> Kamion: ah, that was it yeah
[05:52] <iwj> Kamion: Yes, that was my source.  I just wanted to double-check I hadn't missed a change ...
[05:53] <Keybuk> Kamion: does d-i keep its own internal copy of bogl anywhere?
[06:00] <Kamion> Keybuk: not to my knowledge; it uses bogl-bterm which is from the bogl source package
[06:00] <Keybuk> right
[06:00] <Keybuk> which appears to be a different bogl than the one in usplash
[06:00] <Keybuk> ho-hum
[06:01] <Keybuk> Matthew clearly used some black magics to pull a future version of bogl out of the ether :p
[06:05] <Kamion> IIRC we hacked cfb support into usplash's bogl ...
[06:05] <Kamion> I definitely remember doing something for powerpc
[06:05] <Kamion> I thought Matthew said he'd sent the changes to Daniel upstream, but I may be misremembering
[06:06] <Keybuk> it's the sudden implementation of bogl_move() I'm more interested in
[06:06] <Keybuk> the other diff is mostly just indent changes, which aren't very mjg59esque
[06:06] <Keybuk> (he's not one to go in and retab code just because he's in there)
[06:07] <Kamion> usplash (0.1-9) breezy; urgency=low
[06:07] <Kamion>   * Implement bogl_move for cfb, thereby porting to powerpc.
[06:07] <Kamion>   * Draw everything in a 640x480 window in the centre of the framebuffer, no
[06:07] <Kamion>     matter how large the framebuffer is.
[06:07] <Kamion>  -- Colin Watson<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Thu,  8 Sep 2005 00:28:54 +0100
[06:08] <Kamion> didn't do any reindentation there though
[06:11] <Keybuk> fair enough
[06:22] <jono> hey all
[06:23] <Burgwork> hey jono
[06:23] <jono> hey Burgwork
[06:24] <highvoltage> hey Burgwork
[06:24] <highvoltage> hey jono :)
[06:24] <jono> heya highvoltage
[06:25] <highvoltage> how are things in kde land?
[06:25] <jono> its nuts how difficult it is to download Vista from MSDN - I am looking into doing some competative analysis, and you just can't download anything without IE it seems
[06:25] <jono> highvoltage: oh, I am not a KDE guy any more :)
[06:26] <profoXP> jono, lol
[06:26] <profoXP> jono, my friend runs vista beta2 in school
[06:26] <profoXP> jono, he says his first impressions were good, but after some time he found out it's really sucky and buggy
[06:26] <highvoltage> d'oh! for a moment i confused you with Riddell (long day)
[06:26] <jono> highvoltage: I spent much of my time working on other stuff now, including LUGRadio in which we recently interviewed sabdfl
[06:26] <profoXP> jono, and it requires alot of hardware power
[06:26] <jono> highvoltage: heh, no worries
[06:27] <highvoltage> i listened to that interview. i think lugradio is quite cool.
[06:27] <jono> I think a solid idea of Vista will be useful for developing edgy specs
[06:27] <jono> highvoltage: thanks :)
[06:28] <profoXP> jono, i dont know. vista is just a "hack" of every other operating system. It uses ideas from Linux/KDE/Gnome/MacOS
[06:28] <profoXP> its not really bleeding edge
[06:29] <highvoltage> i think vista will be disappointing from what we've seen from the screenshots. it seems like windows XP with a darker, 'crystal' theme, with a sudo-like tool. it looks very boring even compared to dapper, imho
[06:29] <profoXP> highvoltage, they just incorporate every single idea other people had
[06:29] <profoXP> everything I have seen in both Live MSN and Windows Vista is a rip
[06:29] <profoXP> then again, the whole history is a rip-off
[06:30] <mgalvin> Seveas: ping
[06:30] <highvoltage> they don't have a 11GB repository of great software :P
[06:30] <wasabi> This is a bit off topic.
[06:30] <jono> well I think they have some interesting ideas in Vista, but we will see,but this is off topic
[06:30] <wasabi> A *bit*.
[06:30] <highvoltage> sorry, yes. (me stops on this)
[06:30] <profoXP> (i studied operating system history in my free time :))
[06:31] <jono> right, meeting, later all
[06:31] <profoXP> jono, good ideas. jup. but most are stolen (if not all)
[06:31] <profoXP> later
[06:31] <jono> have fun :)
[06:35] <profoXP> hey guys, are you busy with improving native "suspend-to-disk" and "suspend-to-ram" support, so that it works out of the box after installing proprietary video drivers ? i fixed it for nvidia following this wiki entry : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NvidiaLaptopBinaryDriverSuspend
[06:36] <profoXP> I only tried suspend-to-disk yet
[06:36] <profoXP> (Nvidia, ACPI)
[06:36] <Tonio_> hello
[06:40] <dieman> profoXP: have you filed a bug against something yet?  I'm guessing acpi-support would be a good choice.
[06:40] <profoXP> dieman, nyea... i will.. i have to figure out more first :)
[06:43] <Seveas> mgalvin, ?
[06:43] <bddebian> Heya pygi
[06:45] <mgalvin> Seveas: you have been hosting those -changes rss feeds right? would it be possible for you to host an ubuntu-news feed by any chance?
[06:45] <mdz> ogra: changelog for g-s-s 2.14p2?
[06:45] <ogra> mdz, i think i added everything to the debian changelog, wait, i'll upload it to rookery
[06:46] <profoXP> Anyway, how does suspend work exactly ? on what is suspend based ? suspend2 or swsusp.. or where can i find alot of 'technical' documentation (the wiki doesnt have information like this)
[06:46] <Seveas> mgalvin, how's ubuntu-news spread? Wouldn't using the fridge (which gives you rss 'for free') work better?
[06:47] <ogra> mdz, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ChangeLog
[06:48] <LaserJock> mvo: thanks :-)
[06:48] <mgalvin> Seveas: well it was suggested that we create an rss feed for the new newsletter... i don't know if they will always end up on the fridge or if that is the best solutions (jdub might know)
[06:48] <mvo> LaserJock: you are welcome :)
[06:48] <mgalvin> Seveas: your feeds were the first thing that popped into my head
[06:48] <Seveas> hehe
[06:49] <LaserJock> mvo: I'm glad you mentioned Python, I totally spaced it
[06:49] <jdub> mgalvin: it will always be on the fridge, *totally*... might even be worth making a category for it
[06:49] <Seveas> those feeds are simply parse-mail-and-put-it-in-rss scripts that make quite a few assumptions about the input they get
[06:49] <Seveas> jdub, rock!
[06:49] <jdub> mgalvin: and with the upcoming upgrade to the fridge, it'll be easier for you to contribute directly
[06:49] <mgalvin> jdub: that would be cool!
[06:50] <mvo> LaserJock: no problem, keep me updated on the package
[06:50] <LaserJock> mvo: np
[06:50] <mjg59> Keybuk: Hi
[06:51] <mjg59> Keybuk: I had to implement bogl_move from scratch - it was just a null pointer upstream
[06:53] <Keybuk> yup, that's what I noticed
[06:53] <Keybuk> just caused me a surprise :)
[06:55] <Tonio_> mdz: hello ! sorry for bugging you with this, but did you have a look at the debdiff I sent you concerning streaming configuration in kubuntu ? we would like to get that eventually uploaded :)
[06:56] <mdz> Tonio_: didn't see the email; when did you send it?
[06:57] <Tonio_> mdz 5 days ago, let me check....
[06:58] <Tonio_> mdz: hum.... I purge the sent folder.... maybe you can search with my email address<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:58] <Tonio_> mdz: it was on 06/03 or 02
[07:00] <Riddell> mdz: I have another dapper-update for review http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/qt.diff
[07:00] <mdz> Tonio_: nothing from<EMAIL_ADDRESS>in May or June
[07:01] <Tonio_> mdz: gaps......... I will resend now ;)
[07:01] <mdz> Riddell: ABI change?
[07:02] <Riddell> mdz: shouldn't be, it only touches files in src/kernel which is internal to Qt
[07:03] <mdz> Riddell: is it upstream already?
[07:04] <Riddell> mdz: no, although the patch does come from upstream (trolltech)
[07:04] <profoXP> The system log tells me that Ubuntu uses swsusp for suspending. Wouldn't it be better if we switched to Suspend2 ? I have a really hard time with getting swsusp working on all my linux boxes, but I never had any real problems with Suspend2 (except with fglrx, but there is a fix for that)
[07:05] <profoXP> "Suspend 2 has a long feature list, including the ability to cancel a suspend by pressing Escape, image compression to save time and space, a versatile plugin architecture, and support for machines with Highmem, preemption and SMP."
[07:06] <profoXP> Here is the status of working hardware: http://www.suspend2.net/status
[07:07] <Tonio_> mdz: you should have the mail now
[07:12] <pygi> hey bddebian  ;)
[07:22] <Burgwork> Kinnison, haven't you moved yet?
[07:24] <Kinnison> Burgwork: yes
[07:24] <Kinnison> Burgwork: I moved a couple of weeks ago now
[07:24] <Kinnison> Burgwork: If you're referring to the interview, it was done in april
[07:24] <Burgwork> Kinnison, indeed, congats on the move
[07:25] <Kinnison> Thanks
[07:32] <Kinnison> Speaking of which I ought to go and look at doing some chores soon
[07:32] <bddebian> Ah yes, the "joys" of home-ownership :-)
[07:32] <Kinnison> I had that before. The issue is that I've gotta get the new house tidy :-)
[07:33] <Kinnison> Treenaks: congrats
[07:33] <Treenaks> Kinnison: thanks
[07:36] <Kinnison> I wish I could say it gets easier :-)
[07:37] <Burgwork> sfllaw, ping (re: SoC mentoring)
[07:43] <Tonio_> mdz: did you receive the mail this time ?
[07:43] <mdz> Tonio_: yes
[07:43] <Tonio_> mdz: great
[08:01] <sfllaw> Burgwork: Pong.
[08:01] <Burgwork> sfllaw, have you had a chance to chat with Parag M. Baxi,
[08:01] <sfllaw> I have.
[08:01] <Burgwork> and?
[08:01] <sfllaw> I should ping him again today.
[08:01] <sfllaw> http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jigtopi/ghee22_blog/
[08:02] <sfllaw> His development blog is sort of empty.
[08:03] <Burgwork> sfllaw, I am deeply concerned about the focus his soc is taking and how it integrates into the rest of the Ubuntu
[08:03] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: will you make it to TB in a couple of hours?
[08:03] <sfllaw> Burgwork: I have asked him to consider how it would integrate with Ubuntu.
[08:04] <Keybuk> mdz: I will
[08:04] <Burgwork> sfllaw, yes, he and I had a long discussion in -doc the other day
[08:04] <sfllaw> I'm afraid that what's going to happen is he's going to go careening off into snapshot-taking land, and do what he thinks is heavy-lifting.
[08:04] <Burgwork> sfllaw, for me, the sanest place I think he can work is either on yelp or ubiquity
[08:05] <sfllaw> It's actually not a big problem for a welcome-center application to occur.  For instance, an "intro-to-your-workstation" application would be a godsend for sysadmins.
[08:05] <highvoltage> sfllaw: hey there. are you still interested in the dial-up team for ubuntu?
[08:06] <Burgwork> sfllaw, sure, but that can be done in yelp
[08:07] <sfllaw> Burgwork: Perhaps.  I find yelp's interface a bit icky.  But that makes sense.
[08:07] <sfllaw> highvoltage: I am.
[08:07] <Burgwork> sfllaw, yelps interface is icky because nobody is working on it
[08:07] <sfllaw> highvoltage: In fact, it's on my TODO list to contact you when I've done so.
[08:07] <sfllaw> Burgwork: Does this guy have the skills to hack on yelp.
[08:08] <pygi> sfllaw, the student must have at least weekly reports on blog
[08:08] <sfllaw> pygi: Yes, I have to ping him.
[08:08] <mjg59> mdz: Yup
[08:09] <highvoltage> sfllaw: great!
[08:09] <pygi> Burgwork, may I suggest we go for a "global attack" on range of all students to see what have they done by now?
[08:09] <pygi> and come up with a plan to make sure everything goes as planned
[08:12] <Burgwork> pygi, sure, that sounds good
[08:12] <Burgwork> sfllaw, yes, he did mention he knows more C than Python
[08:12] <pygi> Burgwork, k, I'll be back around in like two hours
[08:12] <pygi> is that appropriate for you?
[08:13] <Burgwork> I will be and still at work
[08:13] <pygi> oki, great then
[08:14] <Burgwork> pygi, weekly reports on the blog would make that today
[08:14] <pygi> I have student which did two reports already
[08:16] <phanatic> pygi: who was that guy? ;)
[08:17] <pygi> phanatic, you :)
[08:19] <Keybuk> woohoo!  snapshot-stealer just ate another day
[08:19] <Keybuk> 2005/09/29!
[08:19] <Keybuk> only 9 months to go
[08:19] <Keybuk> *sigh*
[08:19] <bddebian> Huh?
[08:19] <Keybuk> bddebian: trying to grovel together enough sources to run merge-o-matic again
[08:20] <Keybuk> I'm "politely" leeching every single source every placed on snapshot.dn
[08:20] <bddebian> Keybuk: Ah, nice :-)
[08:33] <mirak> hi
[08:33] <mirak> I don't understand why the installer doesn't propose pppoe config as a choice to connect to the internet
[08:34] <mirak> if you don't have a router you can't connect to internet if you have dsl with pppoe
[08:34] <mdz> you can, but you  need to configure it after installing
[08:35] <mirak> mdz: yes but the installer asks before to connect to the net
[08:35] <mirak> before you can even chroot to the target
[08:35] <mirak> here if you don't have a router or a box that's the standart conection type for dsl
[08:36] <mirak> with cable it's dhcp
[08:49] <profoXP> ivoks, i fixed it on my ati laptop :)
[08:49] <profoXP> ivoks, was something wrong with ndiswrapper
[08:49] <ivoks> nice
[08:49] <profoXP> ivoks, i have to rmmod ndiswrapper once, but for some reason it will still stay loaded as a module, but then suspend will work.. if i rmmod it twice, the system freezes.. very strange
[08:53] <Keybuk> "UBUNTU WILL LOOSE MILLIONS OF USERS" ... that's nice, then they'll stop bitching on the bug that the fix didn't make it into dapper and will be in edgy instead
[08:53] <Keybuk> *sigh*
[08:53] <Keybuk> Malone so needs a "mute" button
[08:54] <Keybuk> or at least a status that means no further information is required, and prevents anyone commenting
[08:54] <Keybuk> :p
[08:54] <infinity> Which bug is going to "loose" us millions of users?
[08:55] <Keybuk> meh, I can never spell that word
[08:55] <Keybuk> the one where we do bus enumeration in tree order, rather than logical id order
[08:55] <Keybuk> so pick up Thinkpad docking station IDE controllers before the internal one
[08:55] <Kinnison> What's gonna happen if we loose millions of users? Won't there be a big mess on the floor?
[08:55] <Keybuk> so their hard-drive is hde when docked, hda when not
[08:56] <jdub> Kinnison: not if we arm them with cricket bats and corkscrews!
[08:56] <infinity> Ahh, I doubt you'd find milliolns of users who even own docking stations, but yes, an irritating bug.
[08:56] <tseng> you can apperantly get kicked out of debian for using a bat
[08:56] <Kinnison> jdub: Now you're talking!
[08:56] <Keybuk> it's very irritating, because there's a few people who just won't shut up about it :p
[08:56] <Kinnison> ciau
[08:56] <Keybuk> "yes, it's broken; yes we'll fix it in edgy; now go away and stop bugging me!" :)
[08:57] <infinity> I'd rather focus on getting d-i and initramfs to agree about module load order.  That's a more widespread detection bug.
[08:57] <Keybuk> I think that may be part of it
[08:58] <infinity> (Or stop having multiple drivers for the same hardware, whichever)
[08:58] <Keybuk> yeah
[08:58] <Keybuk> that bit would be nice
[08:58] <bddebian> Bah, how boring ;-)
[08:59] <infinity> The upshot is that that bug is now cleverly hidden on desktop installs, since we do hardware detection the same on the livecd and the installed system.
[08:59] <trappist> Keybuk: can that be worked around with ide=reverse?
[08:59] <trappist> (out of curiosity)
[08:59] <infinity> But it still bites server installs, where it seems to matter for some Adaptec i2o controllers, at least.
[09:00] <ivoks> urgh... why not set up greylisting on @ubuntu.com addresses? :)
[09:00] <sladen> infinity: bug #6367
[09:00] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 6367 in grub-installer "udev enumeration should use /sys/bus not /sys/devices" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/6367
[09:01] <infinity> sladen: I tihnk the docking station thing is a different bug from the "we have two drivers for adaptect i2o cards, and d-i and initramfs pick different ones"
[09:02] <infinity> (Which leads to the installer thinking your root is /dev/i2o/hda1, while the installed system has /dev/sda1)
[09:02] <infinity> Fun.
[09:02] <sladen> okay, that one's a difference bundle of fun
[09:03] <Keybuk> trappist: no
[09:03] <Keybuk> infinity: ah, the i2o bug?
[09:03] <infinity> Keybuk: Yeah.  Very irritating.
[09:04] <infinity> Keybuk: Ideally, we should make sure the new driver (that uses the SCSI subsystem and plain SCSI devices) handles all the hardware that the old one does and just drop the old one.
[09:05] <infinity> Keybuk: But that's still just covering up for the "d-i and initramfs disagree" thing, which should be fixed, obviously.
[09:05] <Keybuk> I haven't ever gotten a straight answer out of Tollef which one is *right*
[09:05] <infinity> Well, the new one is "right" for all the hardware it handles.  What we're not sure of is if it handles ALL the same hardware.
[09:06] <sladen> a key thing for the upgrades is going to be able to predictably emulate the old assignments, so that they can be migrated to the new mapping
[09:06] <infinity> This is true for lots of devices that will change names in edgy.
[09:06] <Keybuk> sladen: easy, change everything to UUID= :p
[09:07] <sladen> Keybuk: btw, when you discovered the cause of that bug at T-3.5weeks.  I think it should have gone in there.  It was only T-1week when I noticed that you'd found the solution
[09:07] <Keybuk> does anyone know the probability of PATA-in-libata landing in edgy's timeframe yet?
[09:07] <infinity> We should be almost entirely /dev/sd* in edgy.
[09:07] <Keybuk> sladen: we thought about it, the problem was that the fix could well break a lot of other installs
[09:07] <infinity> Keybuk: I'm banking on it happening.
[09:07] <mjg59> Keybuk: Define "landing"
[09:07] <Keybuk> ie. suddenly a lot of people's hde's becoming hda
[09:07] <mjg59> In our kernels? Probably
[09:08] <sladen> Keybuk: yeah, but that has happened (in reverse) anyway for approximately the same number of people doing an upgrade (and it's going to hit the same number on dapper->Edgy migration_
[09:08] <mjg59> The upgrade manager should just migrate everything to uuids
[09:09] <Keybuk> sladen: ah, the cunning plan about the dapper->edgy migration is we have to change them from hd* to sd* anyway, so they won't get bit <g>
[09:09] <infinity> mjg59: That doesn't help server installs.
[09:09] <mjg59> That can be done programmatically
[09:09] <mjg59> infinity: Oh, crap.
[09:09] <sladen> Keybuk: I would have rathered that it broke a $few people but stayed compatible with other distributions (every other distributor, aswell as hoary and edgy)
[09:09] <Keybuk> sladen: and the sad, but true truth is that it's easier to cope with a bug you know than a bug you don't
[09:09] <infinity> mjg59: We can't really use update-manager as a crutch to avoid proper upgrade paths.
[09:09] <mjg59> Ok. udev hackery for the win, I guess
[09:10] <Keybuk> this bug only affects hard-drive naming in a very, very specific circumstance that we can identify; and there is a known workaround
[09:10] <mjg59> It's less of a problem with servers, since we can follow the enumeration rules ourselves
[09:10] <Keybuk> changing the emumeration to logical based would likely break a lot of other things like non-harddrives
[09:10] <Keybuk> mjg59: easy
[09:10] <Keybuk> in the postinst (under the old kernel) read the uuid of every drive and change the mappings
[09:10] <_ion> Will the edgy installer still create a swap partition? Using swap files allocated on demand would be cool.
[09:10] <Keybuk> that way, when it boots, it works <g>
[09:10] <Keybuk> _ion: they'd be cool, if we supported them, which we don't
[09:11] <mjg59> _ion: While we still need swap partitions for hibernate, yes
[09:11] <Keybuk> they flat out don't work in dapper, for example
[09:11] <mjg59> Why does this Sony take such a ridiculously long time to charge?
[09:11] <Keybuk> everyone gets enthusiastic, tries it, it breaks, they file bugs
[09:12] <Keybuk> (not to say we can't make it work in edgy, obviously)
[09:12] <Keybuk> but it should probably work before the installer does it by default :p
[09:13] <sladen> _ion: if you want it, start a spec.  The main thing to work out are all the requirements that it would need, and which don't currently work
[09:31] <kagou> hi ivoks
[09:32] <kagou> ivoks: i'v you built cupsys packages with alternate pstops filter ?
[09:35] <ivoks> kagou: have i?
[09:35] <ivoks> kagou: no
[09:36] <kagou> ivoks: ok. i suspect pstops problem in a bug so i will try to compile cupsys with it (http://cups.org/links.php?V59)
[09:37] <ivoks> kagou: yes, it might be... since only raw printing works :/
[09:37] <kagou> indeed
[09:37] <Kamion> mirak: the reason why pppoe isn't proposed is that nobody's ever written the code, and nobody with sufficient clue to hack on netcfg competently actually seems to have a pppoe line
[09:38] <Kamion> _ion: extending partman to support swap files would be "interesting" ... well volunteered ;-)
[09:38] <mirak> Kamion: ok
[09:38] <mirak> I though it was some choice
[09:38] <mirak> Kamion: but that would be really nice for newbies
[09:39] <mirak> that's the main drawback here I  think
[09:39] <mirak> we have lot of pppe
[09:39] <mirak> o
[09:39] <kagou> ivoks: Bug #34112 a patch is proposed
[09:39] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 34112 in libgnomecups "gnome programs don't respect ~/.cups/lpoptions" [Unknown,Unknown]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/34112
[09:39] <_ion> kamion: I'll consider that when i get better. :-)
[09:40] <ivoks> kagou: this isn't related to cups? :)
[09:41] <kagou> ivoks:  :) i hope this patch works
[09:41] <infinity> Kamion: My connection is pppoe (though behind a router)... I can toss my router in bridge mode and do the pppoe connection from my laptop to hack...
[09:42] <ivoks> kagou: yes, this is ugly bug
[09:43] <ivoks> kagou: anyway, i can't apply it, but we can test it, right?
[09:45] <kagou> right. i will test it tomorrow, at work See you later
[09:45] <ivoks> kagou: bye
[09:45] <pianoboy3333> Can anyone help me set up a svn on my website?
[09:55] <Kamion> infinity: patches welcome, then :-)
[09:57] <infinity> Kamion: Fell free to poke me about it post-Paris.  I've used the pppoe stack a few times here to debug stuff, so it's not entirely unfamilair to me.
[09:57] <infinity> s/Fell/Feel/
[10:03] <dieman> heh, i nearly forgot about the insanity of french national holidays
[10:03] <dieman> luckily it doesn't look like the summit lands on one
[10:11] <robertj> mdz: I wanted to give you an informal ++ on your automated backup server location idea
[10:31] <dieman> i *used* to have a pppoe line
[10:33] <Keybuk> I have a pppo? line
[10:34] <Keybuk> but it's dealt with by the little black box plugged into it
[10:34] <dredg> i ditched mine for cable. 6meg of joy
[10:34] <mjg59> Keybuk: I'm pretty sure the entire UK is pppoa, even the LLUed ones
[10:35] <Keybuk> I assume it is oA yeah, but I've never plugged anything into it to find out
[10:35] <mjg59> Anyway
[10:35] <mjg59> I've got 8Mbit ADSL now, so I'm happy enough
[10:35] <mjg59> 802.11b is the weak point in my network now
[10:35] <Keybuk> heh, my LLU is currently purring at ~20Mbit
[10:35] <dredg> pity, ireland is pppoe everywhere (except from BT and only in certain exchanges and costs a bloody fortune)
[10:35] <mjg59> Hm. I don't even have any 10mbit around any more
[10:35] <Keybuk> which is rather nice
[10:35] <Keybuk> bittorrent still sucks though
[10:36] <jdub> 8Mbit with the current modem, then 24Mbit when i get a new one
[10:36] <Treenaks> jdub: nice, I hope you live close to the CO then
[10:36] <infinity> jdub: Who's your provider?
[10:36] <jdub> internode
[10:36] <jdub> currently on a telstra port though
[10:36] <mjg59> My modem chipset is capable of 24mbit, but DLink have failed to provide an upgrade for the firmware
[10:36] <infinity> Ahh, I'm with iiNet at 24Mb/s
[10:37] <jdub> infinity: working well?
[10:37] <mjg59> Keybuk: Do we not have pcmcia-cs in dapper-updates yet?
[10:37] <jdub> they didn't halve your bandwidth when they halved their profits?
[10:37] <mjg59> People still seem to be getting bitten
[10:37] <infinity> Not too bad, though my line length is a bit long, so I only get ~18Mb/s on a good day.
[10:37] <Keybuk> mjg59: should be
[10:38] <mjg59> Keybuk: And update-manager definitely pulls from dapper-updates?
[10:38] <Keybuk> mjg59: *mumble*
[10:38] <Keybuk>  pcmcia-cs | 3.2.8-5.2ubuntu5 |        dapper | source, amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[10:38] <Keybuk>  pcmcia-cs | 3.2.8-5.2ubuntu6 | dapper-updates | source, amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
[10:38] <Keybuk> assuming that the pcmcia-cs update is correct
[10:38] <Keybuk> it would be worth finding such a person and getting them to check that after a reboot
[10:38] <mjg59> (Do I mean update-manager? Pointy clicky breezy->dapper)
[10:39] <Keybuk> I guess we'd have to ask mvo
[10:39] <Keybuk> I thought it did
[10:39] <mjg59> Heh
[10:39] <mjg59> Or check the source
[10:39] <Burgwork> can we code to update-manager to check if -updates and -security is not enabled and warn the user?
[10:39] <Burgwork> s/we code/we add code/
[10:41] <Keybuk>                     self.sources.add("deb", uri, self.toDist, comps)
[10:41] <Keybuk>                     self.sources.add("deb", uri, self.toDist+"-updates", comps)
[10:41] <Keybuk> oh, ick
[10:42] <Keybuk> it only puts dapper-updates in if you had breezy-updates in
[10:42] <mjg59> Ah
[10:42] <mjg59> Can we fix that?
[10:42] <Keybuk> it's fixable, again ask mvo
[10:43] <mjg59> No mvo to poke
[10:43] <Keybuk> do we know somebody who has definitely been bitten?
[10:43] <infinity> Err, but you wouldn't have the update-manager from breez-updates installed unless you have breezy-updates enabled, generally.
[10:43] <infinity> (Unless you installed the deb by hand)
[10:43] <mjg59> 37430 sounds like it happened recently
[10:43] <Keybuk> infinity: aye, that's what I was just thinking
[10:43] <infinity> So, while I think it's a bug, it's also one that shouldn't bite much.
[10:43] <Keybuk> you wouldn't be using the update-manager that can do dist-upgrades
[10:43] <mjg59> Or rather the latest comment in 37430
[10:44] <mjg59> Maybe we should change the installation docs?
[10:44] <mjg59> Not that it's likely to help, but still
[10:44] <mjg59> Alternative would be to fudge pcmcia-cs into dapper itself...
[10:44] <Keybuk> it does sound like it
[10:44] <Keybuk> mjg59: we can't do that :-/
[10:44] <mjg59> Keybuk: Policy or launchpad?
[10:44] <Keybuk> both
[10:45] <mjg59> I think in this case we could make an exception for policy - the problem is well understood. Launchpad is trickier.
[10:45] <Keybuk> there's no evidence that he didn't get the update
[10:45] <Keybuk> so I think that discussion is premature at this time
[10:45] <mjg59> Can we ask?
[10:45] <Keybuk> it's equally likely that the update does not fix the problem
[10:45] <mjg59> Heh
[10:45] <Keybuk> I've posted a comment asking
[10:45] <infinity> mjg59: Changing the dist post-release is generally regarded as a Bad Thing.
[10:47] <mjg59> infinity: Right, but having a distro that breaks some percentage of machines on upgrade is also a Bad Thing
[11:16] <feilex> hi - i would like to chat to ( mark ) sabdfl - is he still around? - I have an internet security question
[11:17] <Kamion> ... why do you need to talk to Canonical's CEO for that? :)
[11:17] <stuNNed> test...can you read this?
[11:17] <dredg> nope.
[11:18] <Treenaks> stuNNed: Must be encrypted..
[11:18] <stuNNed> probly :P
[11:18] <stuNNed> how to use git?  i need to "git" a driver for ppc broadcom wifi and i will paypal....
[11:19] <mjg59> stuNNed: The driver in dapper is pretty much what's in git currently, I believe
[11:19] <mjg59> What problem are you having that you believe to have been fixed?
[11:20] <stuNNed> checking...
[11:21] <stuNNed> bcm43xx: Error: Microcode "bcm43xx_microcode5.fw" not available or load failed.
[11:22] <Kamion> stuNNed: install bcm43xx-fwcutter and run /usr/share/bcm43xx-fwcutter/install_bcm43xx_firmware.sh as root (assuming you have another Internet connection on that machine)
[11:23] <Kamion> we don't have legal permission to distribute the firmware in Ubuntu proper, I'm afraid; we've tried to contact Broadcom and got nowhere
[11:23] <stuNNed> unfortunately linuxant doesn't do ppc
[11:24] <Kamion> yes, you shouldn't need linuxant with the instructions above
[11:24] <stuNNed> where can i submit funds?  (small amount at the moment...inbetween jobs...)
[11:25] <ogra> http://www.ubuntu.com/donations?action=show&redirect=Donations
[11:25] <stuNNed> i donated to linuxant anyways...should i ask for refund?
[11:25] <stuNNed> thanks ogra
[11:30] <stuNNed> ogra: you guys need to use an easier way to donate than using a paypal account imho...alot of ppl don't trust ebay and affiliates...
[11:33] <ogra> not my chioce
[11:33] <stuNNed> send it up, if you will.
[11:33] <stuNNed> Kamion: omg just run that command and it works?
[11:33] <tseng> i don't see a reason to donate openly to ubuntu
[11:34] <stuNNed> tseng: why?  are you in a fraternity?  what's the deal?
[11:34] <tseng> it is well funded enough, if you want to support it buy a contract
[11:35] <stuNNed> with what?  my measley two dollars?  best way is probly create bounty
[11:35] <tseng> I guess.
[11:35] <tseng> i am not aware of anything funded by ubuntu foundation atm
[11:35] <tseng> I guess it might be a worthy cause someday
[11:36] <stuNNed> dude i cannot afford a "contract" sorry and i think a way to quickly donate, easily, would benefit or no?  does it open the door for fraud or something are you thinking?  i don't get it.
[11:36] <Kamion> stuNNed: should do
[11:36] <Kamion> modulo driver flakiness
[11:36] <stuNNed> Kamion: very brilliant, thanks.
[11:36] <stuNNed> Kamion: good rest
[11:37] <delire> is it proper to ask about a possible bug here before submitting? i can't find a simile in the bugtracker.
[11:38] <tseng> delire: not generally, as the appropriate developer isnt even guaranteed to be listening
[11:38] <tseng> if you file a duplicate bug after making your best effort, it will be marked as such
[11:38] <delire> ok, i'll register it regardless.
[11:38] <tseng> no real harm
[11:38] <delire> cheers.
[11:38] <tseng> thanks.
[11:43] <jcole> anyone here know how to create a bootable sparc iso?
[11:47] <jcole> mkisofs -r -J -o $(TEMP_MINIISO) -G /boot/isofs.b -B ... $(TEMP_CD_TREE)
[11:47] <jcole> i get a "mkisofs: No such file or directory. Cannot open '/boot/isofs.b'." error


[14:21] <hannie> godbyk, ping
[14:53] <CarstenG> Hi a all
[14:53] <CarstenG> at
[14:54] <hannie> hi CarstenG
[14:54] <CarstenG> Hi Hannie
[14:54] <hannie> Do you have a minute for me?
[14:54] <CarstenG> Sure
[14:55] <hannie> The Dutch translation is almost done now (found a lot of errors) but I want to know:
[14:55] <CarstenG> good news :-)
[14:55] <hannie> \marginscreenshot is not recongnized. Any idea why?
[14:56] <CarstenG> hu?
[14:56] <CarstenG> it should
[14:56] <CarstenG> do you have a link for me?
[14:56] <hannie> It does not know the code \mrginscreenshot
[14:56] <hannie> ok, one moment
[14:56] <CarstenG> to the string in LP
[14:57] <hannie> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/precise-e2/+pots/ubuntu-manual/nl/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=marginscreenshot
[14:58] <hannie> Whenever I get \marginscreenshot the following text is in English instead of Dutch
[14:59] <hannie> When I change \marginscreenshot into \screenshot the problem is solved
[15:01] <CarstenG> mmmh, I don't see a bug there
[15:01] <CarstenG> I will test it.
[15:01] <hannie> but that is not an elegant solution
[15:02] <CarstenG> no
[15:02] <CarstenG> not really
[15:02] <hannie> It has something to do with the code that is not recognized when making the Dutch manual with make ubuntu-manual-nl.pdf
[15:03] <hannie> Perhaps I need a plugin for po4a?
[15:04] <hannie> The same problem with \\minimizebutton and \\maximizebutton
[15:04] <hannie> closebutton{} is the \\gls{minimize} button (\\minimizebutton) which
[15:05] <hannie> Why does closebutton has {} and the other 2 don't
[15:05] <CarstenG> you could try to create the Slovenian or Spanish version
[15:05] <hannie> CarstenG, should I first upload my nl.po with my corrections to LP?
[15:05] <CarstenG> They are fully translated, too. And they run without errors on my side.
[15:06] <hannie> ay, so I do need a plugin?
[15:06] <hannie> Here the code marginscreenshot is not recognized
[15:06] <hannie> nor \\minimizebutton
[15:07] <CarstenG> I don't know about a specially plugin for po4a
[15:07] <CarstenG> and yes, you should update the translation on LP
[15:07] <hannie> What the program does is: it places the string in English in the Dutch pdf
[15:08] <hannie> I will, as soon as I have finished correcting it
[15:08] <hannie> I might try to update po4a, you never know
[15:08] <CarstenG> What I do is, if I find a syntax error in translations, I fix it on  LP as new suggestion
[15:09] <CarstenG> Then you dont have to fiddle with upload of po files...
[15:09] <hannie> What I do is: I first make all the corrections in nl.po and then upload it to LP
[15:10] <CarstenG> what happens with "make ubuntu-manual-nl.tex"?
[15:10] <CarstenG> it should only create a translated tex file.
[15:10] <hannie> I found a lot of errors like missing { or }, [ or ], \\ instead of \ (thanks to Lokalize :( )
[15:10] <CarstenG> is there an error message?
[15:10] <hannie> It keeps saying 1 error at the bottom
[15:11] <hannie> make: *** [ubuntu-manual-nl.pdf] Fout 1
[15:11] <hannie> Fout = error
[15:11] <hannie> But the good news is that, apart from the \marginscreenshot errors I get the whole manual in Dutch
[15:12] <hannie> Output written on ubuntu-manual-nl.pdf (175 pages).
[15:12] <CarstenG> no, I mean "make ubuntu-manual-nl.tex", not "make ubuntu-manual-nl.pdf"
[15:13] <hannie> I will make a tex in a minute
[15:14] <hannie> No errors with make ubuntu-manual-nl.tex
[15:15] <hannie> The script removes the tex after the pdf is made
[15:15] <CarstenG> ok
[15:15] <hannie> rm ubuntu-manual-nl.tex
[15:15] <hannie> So would LaTeX be the culprit?
[15:16] <CarstenG> now you should find the untranslated string with the marginscreenshot in it
[15:16] <hannie> The string is translated, but it is not transferred to the Dutch pdf file
[15:17] <CarstenG> well, if you do a "make ...-nl.pdf" and there was no tex file before, the the tex file will be deleted after the make run
[15:17] <hannie> When I change \marginscreenshot into \screenshot the translation does appear in the pdf file
[15:17] <CarstenG> if you do a "make ...-nl.tex" the tex file will be created
[15:18] <hannie> yes, I just created it
[15:18] <hannie> and then?
[15:18] <CarstenG> and now, after a "make ...-nl.pdf" the tex file will not deleted
[15:18] <hannie> will try, just a minute
[15:26] <hannie> Having created ..nl.tex and then making ..nl.pdf still gives the same results in lines with \marginscreenshot
[15:26] <hannie> It is not a big issue, though. I can change it to \screenshot and see what happens after I have taken the screenshots
[15:27] <hannie> The only difference will be that the screenshots are not placed in the margin
[15:28] <hannie> I am going to upload my changes thus far, so I will have a backup on LP
[15:29] <hannie> I will send you and Kevin an email with my findings/questions in a minute
[15:35] <CarstenG> ok
[15:35] <CarstenG> and add your po file :-)
[15:36] <hannie> oki


[14:34] <mase_slapt> ola
[14:40] <newz2000> hi
[14:44] <mase_slapt> hey
[14:51] <newz2000> boredandblogging: hey, is this up you're alley? - https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+question/13439
[15:00] <boredandblogging> newz2000: let me check
[15:01] <boredandblogging> newz2000: yeah, I'll take care of it
[15:01] <newz2000> thanks
[23:13] <Volans> Hi all, just a quick pass...
[23:15] <newz2000> hey Volans
[23:15] <newz2000> nothing exciting is happening yet
[23:16] <Volans> no news from the doc team?
[23:17] <newz2000> no, but Gerry has chimed in. I need to get more details from him though, he tends to drop these comments in passing that leave you with a dozen questions
[23:19] <Volans> I know that there are very big responsabilities behind the start page and I undestand that some discussion between Canonical's guys is needed, so for me just to know that someone of you are working on the topis is enough ;)
[23:21] <newz2000> Yes, to be transparent on the issue, I'm trying not to make any commitments or get anyone too deep into the job until I know that this is going to pan out. I'd hate to get everyone feeling like we're making progress on it and have the project get dumped at 90% completion.
[23:21] <newz2000> (that happened to the art-team once before edgy I believe - it was very disheartening)
[23:22] <Volans> ok, I only  hope that a final decision can be achieved soon in order to have the time to produce something innovative and beafutiful for Intrepid
[23:23] <newz2000> me too
[23:23] <Volans> :)
[23:34] <Volans> newz2000: if you have a couple of minutes you can fix the bug 253267 I have added the direct link to the md5sums in the bug
[23:34] <ubot3`> Malone bug 253267 in ubuntu-website "xubuntu-8.04.1 checksum/hashes are missing" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/253267
[23:38] <newz2000> thanks Volans. Just updated the hashes, I'll close the bug now.
[23:38] <Volans> my pleasure...
[23:38] <newz2000> except that I can't update the status
[23:39] <Volans> why?
[23:39] <newz2000> ok, logging out and back in fixed. status updated.
[23:39] <Volans> ok
[23:40] <newz2000> I'm going to go have some dinner. Thanks for your help Volans.
[23:41] <Volans> don't mention it... just a link :) I go to sleep now
[23:41] <Volans> see you tomorrow