[08:51] <babbageclunk> dimitern: quick review of this? https://github.com/juju/gomaasapi/pull/46
[08:51] <dimitern> babbageclunk: looking
[08:51] <babbageclunk> dimitern: it turns out that as long as the methods return nil literally, the interface values compare == to nil
[08:52] <dimitern> babbageclunk: hmm really? Won't the nil be wrapped still in an nil interface value, which itself is not nil?
[08:53] <babbageclunk> dimitern: as long as both the type pointer and the value pointer are nil it'll == nil
[08:54] <babbageclunk> dimitern: but returning something like i.subnet when it's nil will set the type pointer.
[08:55] <dimitern> babbageclunk: you're correct, I've just tried this: http://play.golang.org/p/dQSGV-JQ87
[08:56] <dimitern> babbageclunk: so the compiler does the right thing as long as you return an untyped nil
[08:56] <babbageclunk> dimitern: yup - and that means we can keep the interface nice while getting the right behaviour
[08:56] <dimitern> babbageclunk: sweet!
[08:57] <babbageclunk> dimitern: :)
[08:59] <voidspace> dimitern: frobware: will be a couple of minutes late to standup
[08:59] <voidspace> urgent coffee emergency
[08:59] <dimitern> voidspace: np
[09:00] <babbageclunk> sweet, opportunistically grabbing a tea too then
[09:01] <dimitern> babbageclunk: reviewed
[09:02] <jam> mgz: how's the release shaping up? Is CI happy or do we need some extra pokinG?
[09:42] <frobware> voidspace: https://bugs.launchpad.net/maas/+bug/1573046
[09:42] <mup> Bug #1573046: 14.04 images not available for commissioning as distrio-info --lts now reports xenial <landscape> <MAAS:Fix Released by andreserl> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1573046>
[09:52] <frobware> voidspace: I got kicked out, back into standup HO again?
[09:52] <voidspace> frobware: I'm still there
[10:05] <frobware> dooferlad: the precise /tmp issue - I wonder how it  ever worked then
[10:06] <dooferlad> frobware: I don't know, but it definitely happens.
[10:07] <babbageclunk> dimitern, frobware, voidspace: review please? https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/5271
[10:07] <babbageclunk> also, trying to post a comment on a bug on launchpad is timing out - is that normal?
[10:07] <babbageclunk> nvm - fine now
[10:10] <dimitern> babbageclunk: LGTM, thanks!
[10:10] <babbageclunk> man, juju on maas is really neat when it's all working smoothly.
[10:10] <babbageclunk> dimitern: Thanks!
[10:10] <voidspace> babbageclunk: that was a difficult review...
[10:10] <voidspace> dimitern: that's what a review should look like - not 17 pages! ;-)
[10:11] <voidspace> (I jest - remove as much code as you want...)
[10:11] <babbageclunk> voidspace: sorry man - I tried to keep it to a 1-line change but it wouldn't compile without the other one.
[10:11] <voidspace> babbageclunk: yeah, I have the same change in my branch
[10:12] <voidspace> dimitern: I can confirm that lxd doesn't work on maas for neither trusty nor xenial
[10:13] <voidspace> dimitern: due to this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1568895
[10:13] <mup> Bug #1568895: Cannot add MAAS-based LXD containers in 2.0beta4 on trusty <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1568895>
[10:13] <dimitern> babbageclunk: it should be smooth if we (and the maas guys) are doing it properly :)
[10:13] <babbageclunk> dimitern: :)
[10:13] <dimitern> voidspace: oh, not good :/ I'll give it a try here with 1.9 and 2.0 on xenial
[10:14] <voidspace> I also can't commission new nodes at the moment
[10:14] <dimitern> voidspace: some reviews are like that :P
[10:14] <voidspace> which frobware reckons is probably due to the xenial transition
[10:14] <voidspace> not an issue for me right now, but will be soon
[10:14] <voidspace> heh, yea
[10:20] <dimitern> babbageclunk: if you can bootstrap ok now, you can test a few things - e.g. constraints selection for nodes, bindings, deploying mult-nic lxd backed by a device, ideally as far as checking whether network-get works
[10:22] <voidspace> dimitern: can't test lxd, multi-nic or otherwise
[10:22] <dimitern> voidspace: 'otherwise' should work (i.e. with lxc)
[10:22] <voidspace> dimitern: well, yes "not lxd" works...
[10:23] <dimitern> voidspace: as long as it works for lxc (and kvm) at least we know the multi-nic code path is exercised
[10:23] <dimitern> then it's down to fixing lxd I guess
[10:24] <voidspace> dimitern: by the way - how is AllocateContainerAddresses tested in the maas provider
[10:24] <dimitern> (again)
[10:24] <babbageclunk> dimitern: ok - I'll probably need some hand-holding for those.
[10:24] <voidspace> dimitern: not directly as far as I can tell
[10:24] <voidspace> I'm writing tests for the new code path
[10:24] <dimitern> babbageclunk: sure, just ask
[10:24] <dimitern> voidspace: not tested except manually (live) I'm afraid
[10:24] <voidspace> naughty :-/
[10:25] <voidspace> who let that past review!
[10:25] <voidspace> easier to test with the new gomaasapi though
[10:25] <dimitern> voidspace: yeah, but at least we can test it properly now
[10:28] <dimitern> babbageclunk: for testing constraints, I'd suggest trying to add a machine with --constraints='...', once for each type (arch, mem, cpu, etc.) on its own, then removing the machine with --force before trying the next
[10:30] <babbageclunk> ok
[10:31] <babbageclunk> dimitern, voidspace: man, reading through gomaasapi/testservice.go was pretty alarming! Basically having to re-implement a baby MAAS!
[10:31] <dimitern> different combos are also useful to test, and constraints with negatives as well (tags=^mytag1,^othertag, same for spaces=)
[10:32] <dimitern> babbageclunk: yeah, and that's a simpler test double than we use for ec2
[10:32] <babbageclunk> dimitern: ouch
[10:32] <voidspace> babbageclunk: yep :-)
[10:38] <dooferlad> frobware: have replied to that review...
[10:42] <mup> Bug #1574564 opened: Juju tools 1.25.5 not found in https://streams.canonical.com/juju/tools/releases/ <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574564>
[10:44] <dimitern> voidspace, frobware, babbageclunk: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/4697/ please, take a look (one page diff this time :)
[10:52] <fwereade> babbageclunk, dimitern, voidspace: FWIW, I feel quite strongly that complex test doubles are very smelly -- for individual interactions, explicit canned request/response is usually tractable, and for broader tests there's no substitute for a real maas
[10:54] <dimitern> fwereade: agreed - we're moving the low-level MAAS API interactions and tests inside gomaasapi itself, and using a pre-canned http server for higher-level interactions
[10:55] <fwereade> babbageclunk, dimitern, voidspace: and it seems like a bad deal to devote effort to exactly aping a substrate -- it's very hard to maintain, and it means that the test infrastructure is biased *against* being able to test weird responses
[10:55] <fwereade> dimitern, cool
[11:15] <dimitern> frobware, voidspace, babbageclunk: related, but simpler review for the names package: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/4698/
[11:18] <babbageclunk> dimitern: is there a way to ignore whitespace differences in reviewboard or github? The vertical alignment that gofmt does makes it hard to see the real change in lots of places. (The checkboxes in reviewboard don't seem to do anything for the changes I'm looking at.)
[11:19] <dimitern> babbageclunk: I don't think so, but does it look better on github?
[11:20] <babbageclunk> dimitern: oh-ho! https://github.com/blog/967-github-secrets
[11:21] <babbageclunk> dimitern (and frobware): add ?w=1 on the end of the url
[11:21] <dimitern> babbageclunk: nice! I knew there was something like that, but haven't used it yet
[11:21] <frobware> babbageclunk: I was looking for something like that about 30 mins ago when purveying dimitern's PR... thx
[11:23] <dimitern> frobware: fwiw I try to make individual commits make sense on their own
[11:23] <frobware> dimitern: ack. I just find it a toss-up which UI is better. GH or RB.
[11:33] <dimitern> ok, upgraded both maas-es to latest versions (1.9.1+bzr4543-0ubuntu2 (trusty1) and 2.0.0 (beta4+bzr4944), respectively) now bootstrapping to see if lxd will work
[11:36] <dimitern> fwereade: hey, I know we don't usually do our 1:1s, but I have a few things to discuss if you have 15-20m time?
[11:38] <dimitern> we can do it later/tommorow as well
[11:40] <dimitern> voidspace, frobware, babbageclunk: I can successfully deploy multi-nic lxd containers on xenial with maas 1.9.1 beta4
[11:43] <jam> mgz: ping
[11:55] <voidspace> dimitern: that's awesome
[11:56] <dimitern> voidspace: maybe try upgrading your maas to see if it will fix the lxd issue?
[11:58] <dimitern> now trying the same on 2.0.0
[11:58] <voidspace> dimitern: ah, that's 1.9
[11:58] <voidspace> dimitern: I'm using the latest 2.0 from experimental 3 ppa.
[11:59] <voidspace> dimitern: not so awesome news then. I mean, great - but it's not using my code...
[11:59] <voidspace> dimitern: you won't be able to deploy containers on maas 2 with master - you'll need my branch
[12:00] <dimitern> voidspace: ah, ok can you paste a link and I'll try with your branch?
[12:04] <voidspace> dimitern: https://github.com/voidspace/juju/tree/maas2-allocate-container-addresses
[12:05] <dimitern> voidspace: thanks!
[12:09] <jam> fwereade: have you seen the "test timed out waiting for the machiner to start" ? failure in CI?
[12:09] <jam> http://reports.vapour.ws/releases/3919/job/run-unit-tests-mongodb3/attempt/538
[12:10] <mup> Bug #1382131 changed: local provider configs cannot be trivially duplicated <config> <local-provider> <juju-core:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382131>
[12:10] <jam> fwereade: the very first thing that comes to mind is knowing *what* dependency is missing would be useful
[12:17] <frobware> dooferlad: ping
[12:19] <cherylj> fwereade: Just sent an email about the pinger bug - can you take a look?
[12:20] <urulama> cherylj: are you changing the pinger?
[12:20] <urulama> cherylj: that's the only way to keep WS open so that apache doesn't close it by itself
[12:21] <cherylj> urulama: this is for fixing bug 1572237
[12:21] <mup> Bug #1572237: juju rc1 loses agents during a lxd deploy <lxd-provider> <juju-core:In Progress by ericsnowcurrently> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572237>
[12:22] <cherylj> urulama: it's to make sure the pinger restarts if it dies
[12:22] <urulama> cherylj: ok, thanks. just didn't want to get any surprises seeing GUI stop working all of a sudden :)
[12:22] <cherylj> hehe :)
[12:24]  * dimitern is out for ~2h
[12:28] <simonklb> anyone know if someone is working on https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1565872 ?
[12:28] <mup> Bug #1565872: Juju needs to support LXD profiles as a constraint <adoption> <juju-release-support> <lxd> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1565872>
[12:28] <simonklb> and what is the best option for developing docker charms for 2.0 at the moment?
[12:33] <fwereade> jam, the infrastructure is there but I never got to exposing it -- call .Report() on an Engine and you'll get all sorts of useful diagnostic goodness
[12:33] <fwereade> cherylj, ack
[12:34] <mup> Bug #1574607 opened: Multiple Interfaces lead to stalled charm download over wrong API endpoint <api> <networking> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574607>
[12:40] <fwereade> cherylj, it's a real race, in stuff my eyes completely skipped over because I thought I recognised it
[13:04] <mup> Bug #1574632 opened: Data Race in apiserver/presence/pinger.go <blocker> <ci> <race-condition> <regression> <unit-tests> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574632>
[13:12]  * voidspace lunches
[13:16] <mup> Bug #1574637 opened: TestScale fails intermittently <ci> <intermittent-failure> <test-failure> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574637>
[13:22] <mup> Bug #1574637 changed: TestScale fails intermittently <ci> <intermittent-failure> <test-failure> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574637>
[13:25] <Garyx> Anyone have any idea of when juju 2.0 RC1 or next Beta will rear it's head in the repo's?
[13:34] <mup> Bug #1574637 opened: TestScale fails intermittently <ci> <intermittent-failure> <test-failure> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574637>
[13:42] <babbageclunk> Garyx: I think cherylj might be able to tell you that.
[13:43] <alexisb> sinzui, fwereade, cherylj yay for CI for catching issues
[13:44] <alexisb> fwereade, cherylj what do we htink the turn around time will be for fixing the race?
[13:45] <Garyx> babbageclunk: thanks
[13:45] <Garyx> cherylj: any rough eta, not asking for a time and date ;)
[13:45] <alexisb> Garyx, we are working on the next beat atm
[13:45] <alexisb> trying to get it out today
[13:45] <alexisb> beta6
[13:46] <Garyx> alexisb: thanks for the info :)
[13:46] <mup> Bug #1574649 opened: environs/config LatestLtsSeries is not isolated from the host during testing <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574649>
[13:47] <fwereade> alexisb, more than 0 hours and hopefully less than 2; surely less than 4
[13:47] <alexisb> fwereade, ack thanks
[13:58] <mup> Bug #1574564 changed: Juju tools 1.25.5 not found in https://streams.canonical.com/juju/tools/releases/ <juju-core:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574564>
[14:43] <mup> Bug #1574677 opened: Designation of 'local' for both users and controllers is confusing <docteam> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574677>
[15:01]  * dimitern is back
[15:02] <katco> ericsnow: standup time
[15:22] <dimitern> voidspace: I'm trying your branch now on 2.0 with lxd
[15:22] <mup> Bug #1570917 changed: upgrade-juju: success but then deploy fails <upgrade-juju> <juju-core:Invalid by rogpeppe> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570917>
[15:22] <voidspace> dimitern: cool, happy path test (single NIC) just about ready to land
[15:23] <voidspace> dimitern: I'll get that up for review and then do more extensive tests
[15:23] <voidspace> dimitern: once it lands there's container support on master - so good to get it in
[15:23] <voidspace> mind you, master is blocked so it doesn't really matter I guess
[15:23] <dimitern> voidspace: sounds good
[15:23] <voidspace> a review would be good though
[15:24] <dimitern> voidspace: I was having issues with my maas2 - tgt was misbehaving again and nothing could be commissioned or deployed successfully, now it seems it works again
[15:27] <voidspace> dimitern: I think you'll hit this bug, but we'll see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1568895
[15:27] <mup> Bug #1568895: Cannot add MAAS-based LXD containers in 2.0beta4 on trusty <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1568895>
[15:28] <dimitern> voidspace: nope, it's not that I think, as the bug is about trusty and this is xenial
[15:28] <voidspace> dimitern: I had the exact same error with both
[15:31] <dimitern> voidspace: if you grep for 'tgtadm: out of memory' in /var/log/maas/rackd.log and find anything, you might be hitting my issue
[15:31] <voidspace> dimitern: will do
[15:35] <voidspace> dimitern: frobware: babbageclunk: I have to pick my daughter up from the childminders' at 5pm - wife is stuck at the doctors
[15:35] <voidspace> so will be late to meeting, sorry
[15:36] <dimitern> voidspace: ok, np
[15:37] <dimitern> voidspace: do you have a dual-nic hardware node, and the second one is usb2eth?
[15:37] <voidspace> dimitern: me, no
[15:37] <dimitern> voidspace: and the node details page showing something like 'eno1' and 'enxxaabbccddeef0' ?
[15:37] <voidspace> dimitern: my testing is kvm only
[15:38] <dimitern> voidspace: ah, ok
[15:38] <voidspace> dimitern: if you're talking about that bug report it is from frobware
[15:39] <dimitern> voidspace: nope, it's about dealing with long NIC names (e.g. the second NIC on all of my NUCs shows up as e.g. 'enx00e10000163d'
[15:39] <voidspace> ah
[15:39] <dimitern> and that's a wee bit too long to prepend 'br-' to it
[15:39] <voidspace> hah
[15:40] <dimitern> bridge script fails and I can't access the node :/
[15:40] <voidspace> dimitern: frobware: babbageclunk: AllocateContainerAddresses with happy path test http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/4700/
[15:40] <voidspace> review appreciated even though it can't land yet - so I can make changes
[15:40] <voidspace> in the meantime working on more tests
[15:40] <dimitern> voidspace: that seems to happen if you commissioned the node with xenial instead of trusty
[15:40] <dimitern> voidspace: looking
[15:43] <mup> Bug # changed: 1556183, 1556252, 1557146, 1557148, 1557679
[15:50] <alexisb> dimitern, stop landing stuff in master please
[15:51] <dimitern> alexisb: it wasn't blocked today, and I was not aware of restrictions :/
[15:52] <alexisb> dimitern, it is blocked
[15:52] <dimitern> alexisb: I see now it is, but this morning it wasn't - I haven't $$__JFDI__$$'ed anything since you mailed me
[15:53] <alexisb> thanks dimitern
[15:55] <frobware> dimitern, voidspace: I find it odd that in 2016 the name of the iface is so constrained.
[16:03] <voidspace> dimitern: frobware: back, joining networking meeting
[16:04] <voidspace> frobware: I'm nearly at the point where nothing crazy about networking can surprise me...
[16:07] <natefinch_> anyone care to help debug why I can't log in after  upgrding  to Xenial?  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/16050493/
[16:08] <perrito666> natefinch_: sure
[16:09] <perrito666> natefinch_: expand, "cant login"
[16:10] <natefinch_> well, I get to the greeter screen, enter creds, it looks like its switching to the desktop, briefly displays "ubuntu has encountered a problem" andf then bumps me back to the greeter screen
[16:11] <perrito666> ah, I see, well first of all you seem to be using the floss driver for nvidia, is that intentional?
[16:11] <natefinch_> (please excuse my typing, i'\m on a tiny bluetooth keyboard via my tablet)
[16:11] <natefinch_> I don't care what driver I use so long as it works.... which this noe obviously does not
[16:12] <perrito666> if I had to guess, I would say that that your X is crashing after loggin in
[16:12] <natefinch_> I had to twiddle my modprobe.d blacklists to even get x to load
[16:12] <natefinch_> perrito666 - probably
[16:13] <bogdanteleaga> natefinc_, did you blacklist all the gpu drivers?
[16:13] <perrito666> natefinch_: check if the greeter doesnt provide an option for a session withouth the effects
[16:14] <natefinch_> I can switch to a console easily enough, but that's it
[16:21] <perrito666> natefinch_: I am sure ubuntu greeter has an option to change the session you are going to log in
[16:21] <perrito666> click on the ubuntu logo next to the user/pass prompt
[16:22] <natefinch__> evidently just reinstalling the nvidia driver fixed it
[16:23] <perrito666> lol
[16:31] <dimitern> lol
[16:31] <dimitern> CRITICAL: We failed, but the fail whale is dead. Sorry....
[16:34] <redir> up
[16:34] <redir> um, power outage.
[16:34] <redir> shutting down for a few minutes until it comes back.
[17:05] <perrito666> dimitern: what was the dirty hack to workaround the issue with tests complaining about xenial?
[17:06] <dimitern> dimitern: ha :) well, put a script returning "trusty", named 'distro-info' somewhere in $PATH, before /usr/bin
[17:22] <mup> Bug #1574773 opened: bootstrap --to [lxd|lxc]:N fails to validate if machine N exists <landscape> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574773>
[17:24] <mgz> ahasenack: that's a fun bug
[17:25] <ahasenack> mgz: thx! :)
[17:25] <ahasenack> and, let me fix the title
[17:25] <ahasenack> it's not bootstrap --to
[17:25] <ahasenack> it's deploy --to
[17:25] <ahasenack> obviously
[17:26] <mgz> ahasenack: ah, looks like bug 1365124
[17:26] <mup> Bug #1365124: "juju deploy --to <non-existent-machine> <charm-name>" juju still tries to deploy the service. <deploy> <placement> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365124>
[17:26] <ahasenack> just --to N worked to validate N
[17:27] <ahasenack> it failed when I added the lxc/lxd prefix
[17:27] <mgz> but you say that's fixed?
[17:27] <ahasenack> yeah, look at the paste in the bug
[17:27] <ahasenack>  ERROR cannot deploy "ubuntu-to-machine" to machine 1: machine 1 not found
[17:27] <ahasenack> when I used --to 1
[17:27] <ahasenack> but --to lx[dc]:1 passed that check
[17:27] <mgz> well, close one bug, open another
[17:28] <ahasenack> mgz: that bug you linked to is for juju 1.18!
[17:28] <ahasenack> or rather, was reported on juju 1.18
[17:28] <mgz> yup :)
[17:29] <mgz> ahasenack: don't supose you have a 1.X env alive at present? I only have 2.0 up currently
[17:29] <mgz> just want to series target
[17:30] <ahasenack> nope, I made it a point to move myself to juju 2
[17:30] <mgz> ahasenack: I'll stand something up and test here
[17:56] <mup> Bug #1365124 changed: "juju deploy --to <non-existent-machine> <charm-name>" juju still tries to deploy the service. <deploy> <placement> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365124>
[17:56] <mup> Bug #1574783 opened: Juju 2 status should show model name - discrepancy between output formats <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574783>
[18:01] <tvansteenburgh> can anyone point me to the code that retrieves group names from launchpad when i do `charm whoami`?
[18:03] <natefinch__> marcoceppi: ^
[18:04] <tvansteenburgh> natefinch: pretty sure it's go code, i just can't find it
[18:08] <mup> Bug #1574783 changed: Juju 2 status should show model name - discrepancy between output formats <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574783>
[18:20] <mup> Bug #1574783 opened: Juju 2 status should show model name - discrepancy between output formats <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574783>
[18:26] <mup> Bug #1574783 changed: Juju 2 status should show model name - discrepancy between output formats <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574783>
[18:26] <mup> Bug #1574798 opened: Surprising charm downgrade <landscape> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574798>
[18:56] <mup> Bug #1574809 opened: "to: lxc:0" ignored in bundle <kanban-cross-team> <landscape> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574809>
[20:12] <redir_> and we're back
[20:14] <mramm> Does GOOSE support the OpenStack Identity API V3?
[20:16] <mramm> and can you configure/use it from juju?
[20:17] <mup> Bug #1574844 opened: juju2 gives ipv6 address for one lxd, rabbit doesn't appreciate it. <landscape> <juju-core:New> <rabbitmq-server (Juju Charms Collection):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574844>
[20:19] <katco> mramm: it does. you just have to request a /v3/ endpoint in your accounts.yaml (i think that's the right file... might be clouds.yaml)
[20:19] <mramm> Thanks!
[20:32] <katco> perrito666: ericsnow: meeting time
[20:36] <perrito666> katco: tx
[21:55] <alexisb> wallyworld, I have 5 minutes before my next call
[21:55] <wallyworld> me too, be right there
[23:01] <redir> katco: yst?
[23:06] <alexisb> thumper, I lost you
[23:13] <katco> redir: kinda
[23:13] <redir> k. about to tanzanitestand but was looking for some juju1 assist. I'll hit you up tomorrow.
[23:13] <redir> katco: ^
[23:14] <katco> redir: ok tc, cya tomorrow
[23:30] <mup> Bug # changed: 1537937, 1557747, 1564397, 1566130, 1568374, 1571832, 1571916, 1572237, 1572781, 1573148, 1573149, 1573259, 1573382, 1573659, 1574632
[23:30] <mup> Bug #1573410 opened: trusty juju 1.25.5 having issues deploying xenial lxc containers <canonical-bootstack> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1573410>


[10:12] <Laney> hey guys, I'd like to draw your attention to bug #1178373
[10:12] <Laney> it's to get suspend/reboot/shutdown/hibernate working properly in xubuntu/saucy
[10:13] <Laney> from the session menu, that is
[17:11]  * pleia2 has returned
[17:16] <elfy> welcome back pleia2
[17:16] <pleia2> thanks :)
[17:17] <elfy> you well and all that I trust :)
[17:17] <pleia2> very well, thank you
[17:17] <elfy> excellent
[17:28] <ochosi> wb pleia2 !
[17:44] <pleia2> ochosi: thanks!
[17:55] <pnarciso> hello
[17:56] <elfy> hi pnarciso
[17:56] <pnarciso> how thinks going?
[17:56] <elfy> pretty good here thanks - nice to see you
[17:57] <pnarciso> :)
[17:57] <pnarciso> I heard there's a meeting tomorrow
[17:57] <elfy> did you - I've not seen that
[17:58] <elfy> xubuntu one?
[17:58] <pnarciso> UDS
[17:59] <pnarciso> and there's xubuntu
[17:59] <elfy> oic - yea - I think there are some xubuntu specific ones - not sure what time though
[18:01] <pnarciso> everything is open, xfce 4.12 release is uncertain
[18:01] <pnarciso> I've read that ubuntu is ditching firefox to chromium
[18:02] <elfy> again - heard that before
[18:02] <pnarciso> personally I think is a better choice than firefox
[18:03] <elfy> not keen on chromium personally
[18:04] <pnarciso> I don't use it either, I'm running chrome 28 dev, and it's so much faster than firefox that it isn't funny :)
[18:05] <pnarciso> I uses more memory though
[18:05] <elfy> I find it more than adequate for my use - I'd doubt I'd see enough to make me use it
[18:07] <pnarciso> there's the advantage of updated flash
[18:07] <elfy> maybe so - but I'd still not use it :)
[18:07] <pnarciso> :)
[18:08] <elfy> did you see I added to that forum thread
[18:09] <pnarciso> yes
[18:09] <elfy> k
[18:10] <elfy> I should add it to the bug I suppose lol
[18:10] <pnarciso> it' s a bug
[18:10] <elfy> yea
[18:17] <pnarciso> xfce latest stable build is not yet uploaded, it could fix the problem
[18:17] <elfy> yea - read that in the bug
[18:57] <knome> pleia2, woooo! congrats again and welcome back!
[18:58] <pleia2> thanks :)
[18:58] <knome> pleia2, got some time to get back to the loop later today?
[18:59] <pleia2> I will try, but my "urgent" backlog is about 14 miles long :)
[18:59] <knome> yeah... ping me when/of you have time
[18:59] <pleia2> will do, working throught $paid_job stuff now
[18:59] <knome> yup, strength
[20:29] <knome> i'm around if people want to test out things.
[20:30] <elfy> hi knome
[20:31] <elfy> I spoke to balloons re testcase stuff - it's all being done via release teams apparently
[20:31] <knome> elfy, what testcase stuff?
[20:31] <elfy> you wanted me to talk to him about being able to edit things at iso.qa
[20:31] <knome> oh... no, you didn't need to :)
[20:32] <knome> but it doesn't hurt that you did!
[20:32] <elfy> which is not what you said the other day :D
[20:32] <knome> humm
[20:32] <knome> oh well... :)
[20:32] <elfy> yep :)
[20:33] <elfy> what's going to be happening over the next 3 days with meetings? does anyone know yet
[20:33] <knome> we should have a meeting each day at 20UTC
[20:33] <elfy> k - I can manage all of those then :)
[20:33] <knome> we're doing it outside vUDS hours so they should be doable if you can simply stay up long enough...
[20:34] <elfy> I can manage 9pm :)
[20:34] <Unit193> knome: I should be able to test too.
[20:34] <knome> great
[20:34] <knome> what are we testing? skype?
[20:34] <knome> i mean... i can simply enable G+ for my account for those three days, then re-disable
[20:34] <elfy> I'll not be doing any of that - so if it's all skype and video - you'll have to give me logs
[20:35] <Unit193> The theory was to use 3 people and see if it actually works, I saw a couple things saying not, but might actually.
[20:35] <Unit193> elfy: Would you be alright installing something, rather than a signup?
[20:35] <knome> yeah, i also want to make it accessible...
[20:35] <elfy> I've no camera nor any sort of mike Unit193
[20:35] <knome> elfy, are both G+ and skype completely out of question?
[20:35] <Unit193> elfy: I see.
[20:35] <knome> i suppose you can chime in without either
[20:36] <Unit193> You can listen in with Skype.
[20:36] <elfy> that helps
[20:36] <knome> i suppose you can even see the cams with skype
[20:37] <elfy> Unit193: point me where to go and I can install it
[20:38] <knome> elfy, it should be in the partner repositories
[20:38] <elfy> ok
[20:38] <knome> elfy, before installing please note that you will also need to register an account
[20:38] <Unit193> Enable partner and skype-bin, if that's what we're using.
[20:38] <knome> we should at least test that, whatever we end up using.
[20:38] <elfy> knome: k - I expected that
[20:39] <Unit193> knome: Yes, because a couple things indicated premium was needed for more than 2 video users.
[20:39] <knome> Unit193, yes... but things that shouldn't have worked have worked for me on linux before
[20:41] <knome> day pass for premium is 4.01€
[20:41] <Unit193> Or, we could use mumble, sip, or G+.
[20:41] <knome> 8,04€ for a month.
[20:42] <Unit193> elfy: You going to be the third person in a test?
[20:42] <elfy> trying to sort an account now
[20:42] <knome> Unit193, i thought we wanted to test videoconferencing, so we would need another one with a webcam
[20:44] <Noskcaj> elfy, both G+ and skype let you text chat at the same time
[20:45] <elfy> stupid account page
[20:45] <Noskcaj> also, headphones and mics can be bought for $1 on ebay
[20:45] <elfy> Noskcaj: nice
[20:45] <elfy> easy to do things if you can
[20:45] <Noskcaj> what was the thing about testcases? i'm an admin on the tracker
[20:46] <Noskcaj> at least the part the QA team does
[20:47] <elfy> well - fill in the account form and it just refreshes without saying a thing
[20:47] <Unit193> Little red mark at the top?
[20:48] <Noskcaj> i'm online for sype if you want me to do something
[20:48] <elfy> Unit193: nothing like that at all - in fact the webpage looks like something from netscape days ;)
[20:49] <Unit193> Hrm, I'll actually have to put on pants and get the computer with a webcam, won't I?
[20:54] <knome> pants?
[20:54] <knome> aren't obligatory if you are not zooming there
[20:54] <elfy> nope can't get an account sorted
[20:55] <knome> meh
[20:56] <Unit193> elfy: Mind if I make it and send you pass? :P
[20:57] <elfy> that's fine
[20:57] <elfy> hang on
[20:57] <elfy> somethign dodgy with f/f
[20:58] <knome> ochosi will also join us shortly
[20:59]  * knome eats a cookie
[20:59] <knome> Noskcaj, sorry, i missed your msg earlier. join us shortly in a videoconference test.
[21:00] <elfy> Unit193: done
[21:00] <Unit193> elfy: I'm adding hobgoblin or elfy?
[21:00] <elfy> I done it now :)
[21:00] <Noskcaj> i'm jackson.doak if anyone needs to add me
[21:01] <knome> Noskcaj, added
[21:02] <knome> Unit193, are you set?
[21:03] <elfy> well I got an account and I got skype started
[21:03] <knome> awesome
[21:03] <Unit193> Need a minute.
[21:03] <knome> account name?
[21:03] <knome> sure.
[21:03] <Unit193> elfy: Add Unit193! ;D
[21:03] <knome> i can start the conference call.
[21:04] <elfy> elfyesq knome
[21:04] <elfy> Unit193: I did
[21:05] <Unit193> I saw, added.
[21:06] <elfy> knome: you pasi there I assume
[21:06] <lderan> do you have enough to test with?
[21:06] <knome> <- knomepasi
[21:06] <knome> sure
[21:07] <lderan> ok
[21:07] <ochosi> so now we wait patiently for knome to initiate the conference call or what?
[21:07] <knome> i'll do that in a sec.
[21:08] <knome> ringing
[21:09] <knome> well apparently the video button is striked out
[21:12] <knome> haha
[21:12] <knome> success
[21:12] <lderan> woo
[21:12] <Unit193> Fail? :D
[21:12] <Noskcaj> :)
[21:12] <elfy> kinda :)
[21:13] <ochosi> well voice seemed okayish tbh
[21:13] <knome> 2/5 people without mics?
[21:13] <knome> yeah
[21:13] <ochosi> no video is kinda fail though
[21:13] <knome> yeah, that sucks
[21:13] <knome> i'll also get my headphones
[21:13] <elfy> if I can get the lappy working tomorrow then I'd have both
[21:13] <ochosi> (not sure how bandwith would be affected by video)
[21:13] <knome> the fridge+freezer is humming relatively loudly
[21:13] <knome> (not ubuntu fridge)
[21:14] <elfy> lol
[21:14] <elfy> I got a cat doing that ...
[21:14] <ochosi> your mic is quite sensitive, knome :)
[21:14] <knome> is it?
[21:14] <knome> it was not me tapping!
[21:14] <ochosi> i could hear you type loud and clear
[21:14] <lderan> lol
[21:14] <knome> was my voice loud too then?
[21:14] <elfy> nope
[21:15] <knome> it might be that i'm just hitting the keys hard...
[21:15] <knome> actually, i use to do that, so...
[21:15] <elfy> just louder than Simon's not so sensitive mike :)
[21:15] <ochosi> hmpfyeah, not sure why it is so insensitive now
[21:15] <ochosi> must be related to pulseaudio somehow
[21:15] <knome> well mine is next to the keyboard, so..
[21:16] <Noskcaj> i should get my mech keyboard for the conference ;)
[21:16] <elfy> I must have some weirdness in my f/fox profile with regard to skype - it never searches for it - the account page was just text
[21:16] <knome> woo, get started...
[21:16] <ochosi> i just added some crazy muxing now via alsamixer, so we'll see whether that boosts your eardrums in our next test
[21:17] <ochosi> knome: have you added me on g+ yet or are you still creating your account?
[21:17] <Unit193> Was I too quiet?
[21:17] <elfy> did you say something then?
[21:17] <knome> ochosi, just added.
[21:18] <ochosi> knome: you're displayed as offline
[21:18] <knome> i've no idea why
[21:18] <ochosi> Unit193: were you the third person with a mic? i could hear something at some point
[21:18] <elfy> how do you add people in g+
[21:18] <ochosi> Unit193: not as loud and clear as pasi, but seems he's the only one with a decent mic/setup
[21:19] <ochosi> k, installing plugin for hangout now...
[21:19] <knome> me too...
[21:19] <knome> i've created a hangout
[21:20] <Unit193> ochosi: I'm in live. :P
[21:20] <Unit193> knome: Link?
[21:20] <knome> do i post the hangout window urk?
[21:20] <Noskcaj> link?
[21:21] <Unit193> I don't know, but some how there is a link to pass. :P
[21:21] <knome> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/8517325154e7868d00626c83c6561c7c1e8b1a89?authuser=0&hl=en ?
[21:22] <elfy> yep - can see you botyh
[21:23] <elfy> I've got no mike or cam
[21:23] <lderan> i can sign in if need be easily enough
[21:24] <ochosi> lderan: sure, join in
[21:39] <knome> mmh, that was better
[21:39] <ochosi> yeah, good enough
[21:39] <knome> we really should keep the sessions under an hour
[21:39] <elfy> yep
[21:39] <ochosi> agreed
[21:39] <elfy> I think hangouts timeout at an hour don't they?
[21:39] <knome> no idea
[21:40] <ochosi> not sure whether this is really worth an extra spot on the agenda, but we could consider doing this more often for meetings
[21:40] <knome> that's somewhat sucky, if we are just wrapping things up
[21:40] <lderan> the video was stable for me tho i did get disconnected once
[21:40] <ochosi> lderan: yeah same here
[21:40] <elfy> http://gappstips.com/more/googleplus-tips/view/56/google-hangout-time-out-limit
[21:40] <Unit193> Not made for netbooks, the computer that had a webcam. :P
[21:41] <elfy> 90 minutes it seems
[21:42] <knome> i suppose i could see if i could get a headset for tomorrow as well
[21:42] <knome> my head is too big for most, but...
[21:42] <Unit193> Hah.
[21:42] <ochosi> haha
[21:42] <knome> no, seriously
[21:43] <Unit193> Yeah, but it's funny.
[21:43] <ochosi> i can use headphones tomorrow
[21:43] <knome> they don't extend enough to be comfortably on *both* ears...
[21:44] <lderan> aye i have that issue too ;_;
[21:52] <Noskcaj> knome, use in-ear headphones and hang a mic off your head. that's what i was doing
[21:53] <knome> Noskcaj, that's not very comfortable...
[21:53] <Noskcaj> knome, you'd be suprised
[21:54] <ochosi> knome: break the microphone-part off the headset and use scotch-tape to fix it to your cheek
[21:55] <knome> awh
[21:55] <knome> you are telling me to waste money
[21:55] <knome> you capitalist pigs!
[21:55] <lderan> the horror
[21:57] <ochosi> knome: it's not a waste!
[21:57] <knome> meh
[21:58] <ochosi> btw, bluesabre also has g+ with video-capability as far as i can tell
[21:58] <knome> good
[21:58] <ochosi> so that should be fine with him too
[21:58] <ochosi> (at least his avatar has the video-icon in my buddy-list, so i assume it'll be fine)
[21:58] <knome> i've seen micahg and pleia2 do that before with cams too
[21:58] <knome> ...that didn't come out right, did it?
[21:58] <lderan> it did not
[21:58] <ochosi> harhar
[21:58] <pleia2> hahaha
[21:59] <knome> i meant uds sessions naturally.
[22:02] <ochosi> pleia2: will you join vUDS tomorrow too?
[22:04] <pleia2> I will try, need to read backlog and figure out when they are ;)
[22:05] <knome> pleia2, xubuntu sessions at 20UTC tue, wed, thu
[22:05] <knome> (whatever the UDS schedule says...)
[22:05] <pleia2> should be fine, I'll make sure to wear pants
[22:05] <ochosi> awwwh
[22:05]  * knome is sad!
[22:06] <pleia2> :P
[22:06] <knome> we should do a pantless meeting some day
[22:06] <knome> "let me just pick up a file on the floor behind me...oops."
[22:08] <Noskcaj> knome, i'm rather scared of you after your last few comments
[22:09] <knome> Noskcaj, i'm just kidding
[22:09] <lderan> would you accept the english definition for pants, it would be less mentally scarring for all
[22:09] <Noskcaj> knome, good
[22:10] <knome> Noskcaj, pleia2 can assure i'm a harmless guy
[22:11] <ochosi> OR CAN SHE?
[22:11] <ochosi> >:D
[22:12] <knome> i'll leave that decision to her
[22:13] <pleia2> knome <3
[22:13] <knome> pleia2 <3
[22:42] <knome> bbl


[14:30] <smartboyhw> JackYu, ping
[14:30] <JackYu> smartboyhw: hi
[14:30] <smartboyhw> JackYu, I know you guys are trying to develop docs.
[14:30] <smartboyhw> There's one thing you guys should try to consider: Something simliar to the Ubuntu manual project.
[14:31] <smartboyhw> http://ubuntu-manual.org
[14:31] <smartboyhw> Now Lubuntu is trying to make it's own official version of Lubuntu manual
[14:32] <JackYu> seems that it's a great project
[14:33] <smartboyhw> JackYu, you know the problem is: They have more people than the official Ubuntu doc project (which is seriously undermanpower)
[14:33] <JackYu> so, how will Lubuntu do it?
[14:34] <smartboyhw> JackYu, make it the way they want:P
[14:36] <JackYu> well, thanks for your information:)
[14:37] <JackYu> I think flavors should use their own manual.


[13:39] <rbasak> Is there a link somewhere that I can point people to when their system breaks because of having yakkety-proposed enabled?
[13:40] <ogra_> rbasak, perhaps https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed ?
[13:41] <rbasak> ogra_: I feel I need the opposite: that development -proposed is wrong, how to turn it off, and why.
[13:41] <ogra_> well, that wiki has a section that sets up pinning in a way that normal upgrades will not be pulled from -proposed
[13:42] <ogra_> (i wonder why we dont ship that config snippet by default actually)
[13:42] <ogra_> with that you actually need "apt install $package/$release-proposed" to get anything at all from there
[13:43] <rbasak> That's not necessarily what we want for users who are prepared to test proposed for us in a _stable_ release.
[13:43] <rbasak> It's fine not to pin in that case.
[13:43] <rbasak> OTOH, in the development release, users should pretty much *never* have the proposed pocket enabled, so no need for pinning there at all.
[13:43] <ogra_> well, you will always run into the prob that users forget to turn it off after testing
[13:44] <ogra_> the pinning would be a safety net
[13:44] <rbasak> There's another use case though.
[13:44] <rbasak> "As an Ubuntu power user, I'd like to contribute to Ubuntu by testing proposed SRUs before they are released to the general public"
[13:45] <rbasak> That's what the check box in enabling proposed is for.
[13:45] <ogra_> not really ...
[13:45] <rbasak> Well OK, but it's one of the use cases at least.
[13:46] <ogra_> the box is "use it if a developer tells you so in a bug report to verify a bug fix ... and do not forget to turn it off again"
[13:46] <rbasak> If we want to pin out proposed by default, we need to fix the instructions so that users can still do that, and also fix the instructions so users can override the pin to verify a particular SRU.
[13:46] <ogra_> but yeah, there are these people that run proposed permanently
[13:46] <ogra_> (and complain that their system falls apart occasionally :P )
[13:46] <rbasak> IMHO, all Ubuntu devs should be doing so if on a stable release.
[13:47] <ogra_> not so sure ... i for one perfer to have a stable system for doing my work :)
[13:47] <ogra_> (i have multiple machines though and one does actually run proposed)
[13:48] <ogra_> anyway, i think the above is the only page we have for proposed ... IMHO there should definitely be more warnings on it though
[13:49] <ogra_> i.e. some inro paragraph that actually explains a bit more in detail what proposed is and who should use it when
[13:49] <ogra_> *intro
[13:58] <rbasak> FTR, I found an askubuntu question and linked to that. This is bug 1617963.
[13:58] <ubot5`> bug 1617963 in heimdal (Ubuntu) "package libasn1-8-heimdal:amd64 1.7~git20160703+dfsg-1 failed to install/upgrade: package libasn1-8-heimdal:amd64 1.7~git20160703+dfsg-1 cannot be configured because libasn1-8-heimdal:i386 is at a different version (1.7~git20150920+dfsg-4ubuntu1)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1617963
[14:03] <ogra_> ah, neat


[01:47] <darkxst> mgedmin, they changed the default, but you can still set it in tweak tool
[01:50] <darkxst> mgedmin, and Gtk headerbars as of 3.14 honor the button-layout key
[01:51] <darkxst> we will probably switch back to upstream default for vivid. i.e. just close button on all windows
[02:07] <gnewbie_> Trying to use wubi in ubuntu-gnome 14.10 ISO. It insists on downloading another ISO. It has no option for Gnome. How can I fix this?
[04:30] <nlsthzn> o/ ubuntu gnome peeps, first of all congrats on the recent 14.10 release.  I decided to install it so I can try out Gnome 3.14 which roxors my soxors.  I added three PPA's as per instructions online but would like to know is all three needed as ppa:ricotz/testing has a package marked as 3.15 and I wonder if it may be the reason for some graphical issues I have?!
[04:33] <nlsthzn> when I mentioned my issues with the default theme someone on G+ was mentioning there was such an issue with the work being done on 3.15 so I was just curious
[06:00] <darkxst> nlsthzn, probably best to only use gnome3 and gnome3-staging, unless you like having things break
[06:04] <nlsthzn> darkxst, ok thanks... will look into purging the ppa then :)
[06:54] <mgedmin> darkxst, I was seeing minimize/maximize on non-headerbar windows too
[06:56] <mgedmin> also: my segfaults were caused by overlay-scrollbars!
[06:57] <mgedmin> a long gdb session finally uncovered that the last thing called before the segfault was at an address that was mapped to /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gtk-3.0/modules/liboverlay-scrollbar.so
[06:57] <mgedmin> apt-get remove overlay-scrollbar-gtk3 made the segfaults go away
[07:02] <mgedmin> uuwe, ^
[07:02] <mgedmin> I guess gtk+ 3.14 in the ppa needs to conflict with overlay-scrollbar-gtk3, or the ppa should get a fixed overlay-scrollbar package that works with gtk3
[07:04] <mgedmin> since https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-gnome/+bug/1386255 is a private bug, I guess I should open a new one?
[07:13] <darkxst> mgedmin, I will make it public
[07:14] <mgedmin> delete the core file first maybe?
[07:14] <darkxst> of course!
[07:14] <darkxst> mgedmin, do you have ubuntu-gnome-default-settings installed? that should disable overlay scrollbars
[07:15] <mgedmin> I'm pretty sure overlay scrollbars were disabled
[07:15] <mgedmin> i.e. scrollbars looked like regular gnome3 scrollbars
[07:15] <mgedmin> yes, I have ubuntu-gnome-default-settings installed
[07:18] <darkxst> oh the key we set to disable them appears to no longer exists
[07:23] <darkxst> oh its not removed, I just don't have it installed
[07:23] <mgedmin> overlay-scrollbar ships a schema file for com.canonical.desktop.interface
[07:24] <mgedmin> what happens to user settings when the schema is removed?
[07:24] <mgedmin> a-ha
[07:24] <mgedmin> on 2012-11-20 I ran 'gsettings set com.canonical.desktop.interface scrollbar-mode normal'
[07:24] <mgedmin> because of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-themes-standard/+bug/1059374
[07:28] <darkxst> mgedmin, can you file a bug with the crash trace, just removing it not really an option since it will need to be fixed before gtk 3.14 goes into archives for vivid
[07:28] <mgedmin> bug 1386255 has a stack trace
[07:28] <darkxst> mgedmin, oh that was caused by the scrollbars?
[07:28] <mgedmin> not the broken one by the bot, the one I uploaded in a subsequent comment
[07:28] <mgedmin> yes
[07:29] <mgedmin> I can provide more information from my gdb session (while it's still fresh in my memory)
[07:32] <darkxst> I won't have time to look at this now
[07:39] <mgedmin> sure
[07:52] <darkxst> mgedmin, maybe it just needs a rebuild though
[07:52] <mgedmin> do you want me to try?
[07:53] <darkxst> mgedmin, sure, that would be good
[07:58] <mgedmin> darkxst, still crashes when I rebuild it
[08:04] <darkxst> ok, thanks for trying, I will try take a look another time
[08:14] <mgedmin> my curiosity is a burden
[08:14] <mgedmin> had another go: installed overlay-scrollbar-gtk3-dbgsym, ran gdb, put a breakpoint on the callback inside overlay-scrollbar.so
[08:15] <mgedmin> gdm doesn't find any functions at that address
[08:15] <mgedmin> hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notify is static, but I hoped dbgsyms would define it?
[08:15]  * darkxst thinks the dbgsym packages are empty when there is a dbg package
[08:16] <mgedmin> there's no overlay-scrollbar-gtk3-dbg, just overlay-scrollbar-gtk3-dbgsym
[08:16] <darkxst> oh right, in that case it should have symbols but sometimes they get stripped
[08:16] <darkxst> you could try build it with -O0
[08:16] <mgedmin> anyway I'm staring at the assembly, and it looks like some PIC code going very wrong?
[08:16] <darkxst> hmm that is being too curious!
[08:17] <mgedmin> mov    0x20bbba(%rip),%eax; test %eax,%eax; jz somelocallabel (jump taken); mov    0x20bb79(%rip),%rax ($rax is 0 after this!); jmp *%rax (jump to la-la land)
[08:17] <mgedmin> 0x20bb79(%rip) is 0x7fffeed46770
[08:18] <mgedmin> if this is really hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notify
[08:18] <mgedmin> it looks like it assumes all preexisting widgets have a grab_notify
[08:18] <mgedmin> so it doesn't check if pre_hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notify is 0 before unconditionally calling it
[08:19] <mgedmin> how do I make a patch? augh
[08:19] <mgedmin> why is UDD based on bzr and not git?
[08:19] <darkxst> you can't patch assembly!
[08:19] <darkxst> UDD branches are nearly always broken
[08:19] <darkxst> (unless they are packaging branches)
[08:20] <darkxst> I do everything in git, then for simple patches just submit a debdiff
[08:20] <mgedmin> I think https://gist.github.com/84d1545df63a4e0ad981 might fix it
[08:20] <darkxst> for more complex stuff will merge my stuff into bzr
[08:20] <mgedmin> augh I did a 'git init && git add . && git commit -m "Import"' inside the apt-source'd tree and now debuild -i aborts with unrepresentable source changes
[08:21] <darkxst> mgedmin, use git-buildpackage
[08:21] <mgedmin> I need to learn how to use it one day
[08:21] <darkxst> git-buildpackage -S
[08:21] <darkxst> though you need to start by importing the dsc file
[08:22] <darkxst> git import-dsc package.dsc
[08:22] <darkxst> do your work
[08:22] <darkxst> then git-buildpackage -S
[08:22] <mgedmin> do I need to git init before git import-dsc?
[08:22] <darkxst> import-dsc does the init
[08:23] <darkxst> mgedmin, I have been using gbp and friends for everything recently ;)
[08:24] <darkxst> we will soon have packaging branches on git.debian.org for most of the ppa stuff and some ubuntu-gnome packageset stuff
[08:24] <darkxst> mgedmin, you should reverse the checks
[08:25] <darkxst>  pre_hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notify && widget_class->grab_notify == pre_hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notify
[08:26] <darkxst> if grab_notify is null, the comparison in if condition will crash
[08:27] <mgedmin> widget_class is not null
[08:28] <darkxst> oh hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notify was null
[08:28] <darkxst> ?
[08:28] <darkxst> pre_^
[08:28] <mgedmin> yes
[08:29] <mgedmin> I think
[08:31] <mgedmin> yay the fix works!
[08:31] <darkxst> ok, cool
[08:31] <mgedmin> darkxst, what now?  can I get a debdiff out of git-buildpackage?
[08:32] <darkxst> mgedmin, add a changelong entry
[08:32] <darkxst> git-buildpackage -S
[08:32] <mgedmin> ah, ok
[08:33] <darkxst> debdiff old.dsc new.dsc
[08:33] <mgedmin> actually now I think about this my patch is wrong
[08:33] <mgedmin> no it isn't
[08:33] <mgedmin> it's correct :)
[08:33] <mgedmin> it might be incomplete -- who knows what other pre_.... callbacks can be 0
[08:33] <darkxst> well I still think grab_notify must be null
[08:34] <darkxst> which is probably valid enough
[08:35] <mgedmin> yes, widget_class->grab_notify is 0, and gobject's g_type_class_meta_marshal explicitly checks for that before invoking it
[08:36] <mgedmin> re: changelog entry/debdiff: I have to get to work actually, I already spent way too much time on this
[08:36] <mgedmin> maybe later
[08:41] <darkxst> then assuming hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notif is aslo null, why would it even crash
[08:41] <darkxst> at the very least attach a git patch to the bug
[08:42] <darkxst> and would be nice to nice to also know if the overlay scrollbars still work with 3.14 (not withstanding other theme bugs)
[08:43] <mgedmin> I've put a link to the gist in the bug comments
[08:43] <mgedmin> hijacked_scrollbar_grab_notify is a static function defined in overlay-scrollbar's os/os-scrollbar.c
[08:43] <darkxst> thats ok as long as it won't expire!
[08:43] <mgedmin> github's gists never expire
[08:43] <darkxst> ok, I don't really use them
[08:44] <mgedmin> hijacked_..._notify checks if overlay scrollbars are enabled and if they aren't calls through the original function (pre_...)
[08:44] <mgedmin> the intent is to disable the default signal handler if overlay scrollbars are enabled, AFAICS
[08:45] <mgedmin> ironic that it fails when the default signal handler doesn't exist :)
[08:47] <darkxst> I'm only guessing based on your tiny snippet of code
[08:48] <darkxst> but if that is the case, patch is probably correct, but I would still reverse the order of the if condition checks
[08:49] <darkxst> it makes little sense to call - if ( 0x0 == 0x0 && now check for null)
[08:49] <mgedmin> sure; I was aiming for a more readable diff rather than more readable end result
[08:50] <mgedmin> yep, overlay scrollbars work
[08:50] <darkxst> for upstream projects hosted on bzr (I assume overlay-scrollbars is that) then the first is better than the second
[08:50]  * mgedmin tried gsettings set com.canonical.desktop.interface scrollbar-mode overlay-auto
[08:50] <mgedmin> in xchat-gnome
[08:51] <mgedmin> gnome-terminal's scrollbars didn't change for some reason
[08:51] <mgedmin> haven't tried other apps
[08:51] <darkxst> for quilt patches readable diff is better, though in that case its pretty trivial and I would still go with the first
[08:52] <darkxst> anyway I have to go cook dinner
[08:52]  * mgedmin -> work
[09:36] <darkxst> mgedmin, hmm are there scrollbars without grab_notify handlers now? or just widgests getting passed through that are not scrollbars
[09:37] <mgedmin> afaics all gtk scrollbars don't have grab_notify handlers any more
[09:38] <darkxst> ok, that is going to be problematic
[11:17] <mgedmin> ohdear, gnome-terminal 3.14 no longer sets $COLORTERM?
[11:25] <mgedmin> darkxst, gtk_range_grab_notify was removed in https://github.com/GNOME/gtk/commit/26dff0d7830b45b61fb4266664e4a5c1f98c4091#diff-0
[11:25] <mgedmin> in case you were curious what changed between 3.12 and 3.14
[11:28] <darkxst> mgedmin, please leave a comment on the bug
[11:28] <darkxst> and thanks for looking into this
[11:34] <mgedmin> and yes, gnome-terminal stopped setting COLORTERM in https://github.com/GNOME/gnome-terminal/commit/1d5c1b6ca6373c1301494edbc9e43c3e6a9c9aaf
[11:38]  * darkxst sleeping now
[12:44] <leenuts> Hello everyone
[12:44] <leenuts> Need help on Ubuntu Gnome 14.10, VPN connections
[12:44] <leenuts> PPTP
[12:45] <leenuts> Cannot ceeate a PPTP connection on fresh install Ubuntu Gnome 14.10. The type does not exist.
[12:45] <leenuts> I checked : the plugin is installed.
[12:45] <leenuts> Some ideas ?
[13:07] <leenuts> Any idea ?
[13:07]  * mgedmin never used PPTP
[13:12] <leenuts> network-pptp-gnome
[13:12] <leenuts> Do you have the PPTP in VPN list ?
[13:12] <leenuts> Parameters > network > add  > VPN...
[13:36] <leenuts> Anybody ?
[13:39] <mgedmin> there's no network-pptp-gnome package in ubuntu
[13:39] <mgedmin> system preferences -> network -> [+] -> VPN has only one choice here: "Import from file"
[13:45] <leenuts> Hello junkanoo !
[13:46] <leenuts> Who has Ubuntu Gnome 14.10 ?
[13:47] <leenuts> mgedmin, you have the same problem than me.
[13:47] <leenuts> Ok, how do you create a new PPTP connection, now ?
[13:48] <leenuts> In 14.04 ,you have PPTP by default in the list.
[13:48] <leenuts> In 14.10, juste import from file.
[13:48] <leenuts> just
[13:48] <leenuts> Is it normal ?
[13:50] <leenuts> If you check, you have the network-pptp-gnome already installed. But no interface in the list.
[13:51] <leenuts> Is it a bug ?
[13:54] <leenuts> Is there something I can check or try ?
[14:01] <mgedmin> I think you mean network-manager-pptp-gnome
[14:01] <mgedmin> hm, yes, it's installed
[14:03] <mgedmin> I don't see anything about this at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager-pptp
[14:04] <mgedmin> maybe you want to report a new bug?
[14:07] <leenuts> Where ?
[14:07] <leenuts> yes network-manager-pptp-gnome
[14:07] <leenuts> Where report a bug ?
[14:09] <leenuts> Here : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-gnome ?
[14:10] <mgedmin> Run 'ubuntu-bug network-manager-pptp-gnome'
[14:10] <mgedmin> hm
[14:10] <mgedmin> actually, now that I think about this
[14:10] <mgedmin> is the bug in the N-M plugin or in the control center itself?
[14:11] <mgedmin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-gnome is for bugs against PPA packages
[14:11] <mgedmin> network-manager-... is in the main archive
[14:14] <leenuts> Ok... creating...
[14:23] <leenuts> Done !
[14:23] <leenuts> Thanks.
[14:23] <leenuts> Goodbye !
[14:41] <lindol> hi all
[16:50] <octoquad> greetings all
[17:00] <octoquad> I filed this bug last night for fglrx and flgrx-updates failing to install from software-properties: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-properties/+bug/1386456
[17:01] <octoquad> If I try to install it manually from the CLI I get a whole bunch of packages that are going to be removed: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8721552/ I'm not sure if this correct though, could someone confirm?
[19:35] <gfd-in-cpt> Question about Ubuntu-Gnome Desktop.  Am I in the correct place to ask?
[20:12] <octoquad> yes
[21:08] <octoquad> Ubuntu Gnome second favourite desktop http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/10/ubuntu-10-years-user-survey-results
[21:11] <phillip> yeah
[21:25] <darkxst> octoquad, the first is possibly correct (ocl-icd-opengl) but not sure why it would want to remove wine, that doesnt seem right
[21:32] <darkxst> octoquad, bug 1382563
[22:02] <octoquad> darkxst, I installed it fglrx and fglrx-core and it removed wine, and I tried to install wine afterwards but apt wants to remove fglrx, fglrx-core and fglrx-amdcccle for wine1.4, wine1.6 and wine1.7 (ppa). It is a bit strange.
[22:03] <darkxst> you have any ppa's installed?
[22:04] <gfd-in-cpt> Looking for help with two issues with the Ubuntu-Gnome desktop.  (1.) Would like to be able to Right-Click on desktop and create an empty document.  Current Gnome configuration does not allow this.  (2.) How do you create a new document using "Files"?
[22:08] <octoquad> darkxst, yes: docker, moka stable, owncloud, variety and yorba ppa (california)
[22:09] <darkxst> probably on of those is causing the dependency issues - or you have some orphaned packages from trusty ppa's
[22:11] <octoquad> gfd-in-cpt, you can add template files in your home folder called Templates. Once you have a file you should be able to create an empty document as well on the desktop
[22:12] <octoquad> hmm, any way to find an orphaned packages?
[22:14] <darkxst> I think synaptic can show you
[22:14] <darkxst> apt-show-versions | grep -v uptodate
[22:17] <octoquad> thanks, also found this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Diet%20Ubuntu
[22:44] <octoquad> darkxst, thanks for that, I removed anything I know of and this is all I have left: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8725163/
[22:50] <darkxst> you probably want to downgrade empathy (although that won't be causing your problem
[22:51] <darkxst> same with the other few "newer than version in archive" packages
[22:51] <darkxst> everything else should be safe to remove
[23:04] <gfd-in-cpt> Thanks for response.  I will find out how to use the Templates.
[23:11] <octoquad> darkxst, thanks, all removed and downgraded but issue persists. It's pretty late this side, so I'll pick this up tomorrow. Appreciate the assistance so far.
[23:11] <darkxst> octoquad, aptitude install sometimes provides more useful info to the actual problem package
[23:18] <octoquad> it does and it looks like fglrx-core is conflicting with libopencl1: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8725441/
[23:27] <gfd-in-cpt> Thanks again.  I just created an empty "Untitled Document 1" using gedit and saved it to the Templates folder.  Worked like a champ.  Most appreciated.
[23:34] <darkxst> octoquad, that is correct though, fglrx would provide its own implementation
[23:40] <darkxst> although fglrx in the archives does not conflict with ocl-icd-libopencl1
[23:42] <darkxst> you are installing 2:14.201-0ubuntu2?


[04:01] <mhall119> AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html
[04:04] <mhall119> my first attempt at a TV mockup
[04:06] <mhall119> doctormon and anyone else interested ^^
[04:07] <imnichol> mhall119, I like it
[04:07] <doctormon> looks good
[04:16] <mhall119> btw, you can install my Unity stencil collection at http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/Unity.zip, if you to go the "My Stuff" tab, right-click empty space and select "Import new private collection..."
[04:16] <mhall119> the stencils don't contain much atm, but it has the images I used to create the launcher buttons
[04:17] <mhall119> I hope it's something the ubuntu-design team can build up, as it would be useful for a great many projects
[04:21] <doctormon> Sounds like a good set of resources.
[08:01] <dholbach> good morning
[08:35] <yaili> good morning
[08:44] <mainerror> Morning.
[08:45] <mainerror> mhall119: Doesn't look bad but I'm not sure if having the launcher like on a desktop is the way to go to be honest.
[08:46] <mainerror> How is such a TV supposed to be controlled? Will it be controlled with a mouse and keyboard or with a remote?
[08:54] <AlanBell> mhall119: very nice
[08:55] <AlanBell> mainerror: do a storyboard to explain the way you want it to work!
[08:56] <mainerror> I'll do that.
[08:56] <AlanBell> but anyhow, the specifics of that are really more for #ubuntu-tv and that mailing list
[08:57] <AlanBell> getting unity stencils available for designing stuff is great
[13:01] <mhall119> mainerror: I see there being an ubuntu-button that, when pressed, moves the launcher into view and puts the selection hilight on the first item
[13:01] <mhall119> you then use the up and down arrow buttons to select
[13:01] <mhall119> in my mockup, there's apps for video, music, games and files
[13:13] <mainerror> I see.
[13:13] <mainerror> I thought about a dashboard design pattern.
[13:14] <mainerror> It is nothing really new, especially on TV, I know that but it is easy and intuitive to use.
[13:14] <mainerror> I'll come up with some mockups this weekend.
[13:25] <AlanBell> so wendar's meeting of the design liberation front is in about 3.5 hours right?
[13:29] <mainerror> Yea ... and I'm going to miss that meeting.
[16:42] <doctormon> Meeting soon!
[16:56] <doctormon> wendar: ping
[16:56] <wendar> doctormon: pong
[17:00] <doctormon> AlanBell, antdillon, ara, bwinton, cjohnston, ckpringle, CrazyThinker, czajkowski, daker, dholbach, dmj726, godbyk, gord, jasox, jfi, johnoxton, Kaleo, kholerabbi: Meeting!
[17:00] <wendar> hi all
[17:00] <thorwil> hi
[17:00] <daker> hi
[17:00] <antdillon> doctormon, hi
[17:00] <AlanBell> hi
[17:00] <AlanBell> feel free to use the meeting bot if you want to
[17:00]  * dholbach is just about to head out - have a great meeting everyone
[17:00] <oreneeshy> hi all
[17:01] <jasox> hi
[17:01] <doctormon> Welcome to the weekly ubuntu design meeting.
[17:01] <MacSlow> hey everybody
[17:01] <wendar> #startmeeting
[17:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 30 17:01:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is wendar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[17:01] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:01] <wendar> ah, it's on, good
[17:02] <doctormon> So wendar, tell us what's on the agenda this week.
[17:02] <wendar> - picking a project
[17:03] <wendar> - starting to sketch out the first stages
[17:04] <wendar> Also, there's been lots of interesting work the past couple of weeks, so I'd like to hear a quick summary.
[17:04] <doctormon> sure
[17:05] <doctormon> We have some interesting investigations into Pencil, a tool for creating workflow mockups. It's a firefox extention/app.
[17:05] <doctormon> mhall119 I believe has made some interesting templates for ubuntu people to use.
[17:06] <doctormon> AlanBell has been leading the charge by practicing with the highly conceptual Ubuntu-TV idea.
[17:06] <mhall119> doctormon: the templates for the TV are from AlanBell, I made stencils of the Unity launcher buttons
[17:07] <doctormon> Thanks for the correction, resources from mhall119 and AlanBell available on request. Are they linked on the resource wiki page?
[17:07] <mhall119> doctormon: on the wiki page for the TV designs, yes
[17:07] <mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
[17:08] <doctormon> Can you guys link all your resources directly to the design-resource page, maybe under a Pencil header?
[17:08] <mhall119> what's the URL for that?
[17:09] <doctormon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam/Resources
[17:09] <doctormon> As well as the work with pencil, I've spent thanks giving developing an alpha Ethersketch. It's a merge of the svg-editor and etherpad-lite.
[17:10] <wendar> ah, fantastic
[17:10] <doctormon> So far it works and is going through it's last few turns of development, once done i'll release an alpha and people can try it out and see if real-time collab graphics is useful.
[17:11] <doctormon> Also on the horizon is the decision to have a dedicated website for design work. The idea is that without a place to document briefs and showcase designs for peer views, everything will get very adhoc.
[17:12] <doctormon> wendar and I talked with sabdfl last week, I think he believes that adhoc is good enough, we should have everybodies opinion.
[17:13] <thorwil> good enough is not good enough ^_^
[17:13] <mhall119> doctormon: I believe design.canonical.com was going to be moved to design.ubuntu.com, will we add the peer review and critique functionality onto that?
[17:14] <wendar> mhall119: design.ubuntu.com is being set up as a new "planet" on the main page, that pulls in design.canonical.com
[17:14] <doctormon> mhall119: It's a php based wordpress site, it's beyond my analysis of it's capability.
[17:14] <wendar> also, custom pages of Ubuntu design resources
[17:14] <mhall119> php :(
[17:14] <wendar> but, we can host anything under the tap
[17:14] <wendar> tab
[17:15] <wendar> sladen has more information
[17:16] <wendar> basically, the planet home page is just a quick way to get community designers voices up on design.ubuntu.com
[17:16] <wendar> without a lot of infrastructure changes
[17:16] <doctormon> makes sense, a good direction I think.
[17:16] <thorwil> sounds good indeed
[17:16] <mhall119> and then just have reviews and critiques happen on each person's blog comments?
[17:17] <doctormon> mhall119: That's where it gets adhoc, it doesn't actually matter where they go because each blog could do it differently.
[17:17] <wendar> mhall119 I wasn't thinking of the blog as part of the workflow, more as general communication
[17:17] <oreneeshy> wendar: sorry to interrupt can we pause for a sec for a quick rnd on intros
[17:18] <oreneeshy> of intros
[17:18] <wendar> oreneeshy: yes, good idea
[17:18] <sladen> mhall119: latest intention as I understand it.  Is to have  design.ubuntu.com/planet  design.u.c/logo/  design.u.c/font  etc
[17:18] <wendar> if you weren't here to give an intro last meeting, take a line or two to tell us who you are and what you're interested in
[17:18] <thorwil> communicating a design process via blog posts is hard work. things break down if it is supposed to go collaborative
[17:19] <sladen> mhall119: and moving all of the Ubuntu stuff over;  and then to leave /canonical-specific/ stuff on  design.canonical.com  eg.  the blog, and canonical-specific logos/branding
[17:19] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs/Pencil is the resources page
[17:19] <AlanBell> or is a page where some resources are
[17:19] <AlanBell> I will move them
[17:20] <AlanBell> sorry, I was scrolled back :)
[17:21] <wendar> [TOPIC] Catchup introductions
[17:21] <wendar> (mootbot is only partially following us?)
[17:21] <AlanBell> Hi I am Alan Bell, I am leader of the UK LoCo and do other bits and bobs. I am interested in helping the design team use Free tools because they are more awesome than the alternatives
[17:21] <AlanBell> wendar: it doesn't have rights to change the channel topic
[17:21] <AlanBell> it did hear you
[17:22] <AlanBell> I also maintain meetingology and have a long list of bugs to fix on it :)
[17:23]  * sladen is a techie on the Canonical Design Team (basically a glorified lab technician).  Poke me about fonts/packaging/bugs/artwork that isn't published yet.
[17:23] <wendar> oreneeshy: introduce yourself?
[17:24] <oreneeshy> Hello am Oren. I do interaction design in the unity team
[17:24] <thorwil> i'm Thorsten Wilms, allround-designer. reponsible for a few ubuntu related logos, like the one for spreadubuntu. i'm very interested in interaction design and design methods/processes
[17:26] <oreneeshy> I am interested in developing a community process  that will focus on experience journeys rather then UI behaviours
[17:26]  * MacSlow is here from the Canonical's DX-team to help mentor anything regarding designer->engieer asset-handover/drafting
[17:27]  * wendar looks through the introductions last time
[17:27] <wendar> jasox and antdillon: hi, welcome, would you like to introduce yourselves?
[17:28] <jasox> I am Jasmin Rahimic, student of IT in Bosnia. I am interested in ubuntu development and design.
[17:28] <antdillon> hi im a member of the webteam here at canonical, mainly develop front-end code but work backend if I need to.
[17:28] <jasox> i don't have a lot of design experience.
[17:29] <antdillon> I am not a designer im a developer
[17:29] <wendar> we need a little of everything here :)
[17:30] <doctormon> I'm Martin Owens, programmer with an interest in design workflow.
[17:32] <sladen> nuthinking: are you here to introduce yourself?
[17:32] <doctormon> wendar: Once introductions are over, can you continue with our tasks for the week?
[17:33] <wendar> doctormon: did we finish the summary of the past two weeks?
[17:34] <wendar> onward, then
[17:34] <wendar> [TOPIC] Picking the first project
[17:34] <wendar> (or projects)
[17:34] <wendar> We have 4 candidate projects
[17:35] <wendar> and, this is partly a matter of finding out what people are interested in working on
[17:35] <wendar> so, we may have a couple of threads running with different interest groups
[17:36] <wendar> The first three are small games, which we can use to try out the design workflow of reviewing and approving an existing application.
[17:37] <wendar> The forth is more orieted towards assisting that workfllow, exploring possible tools, and maybe developing some new ones.
[17:38] <wendar> The three games are 4digits, AisleRot, and gbrainy.
[17:38] <AlanBell> gbrainy is likely to not be on the CD
[17:39] <wendar> AlanBell: dropped dependencies?
[17:39] <AlanBell> the mono/banshee thing
[17:39] <AlanBell> without banshee only gbrainy and tomboy need mono
[17:40] <AlanBell> not that it should stop anything for this team, just throwing it out there as info
[17:40] <wendar> very useful thanks
[17:40] <sladen> AisleRiot was mentioned in the design-sessions at UDS
[17:41] <AlanBell> I think the main problem with gbrainy is that the questions are not very good, design won't fix that
[17:41]  * wendar is aiming for general discussion on all three, then vote
[17:41] <doctormon> So I think we should pair or group people up who are interest in each idea so they can work on it for the week.
[17:41] <AlanBell> what are 4digits and aisleriot?
[17:42] <doctormon> After all the group doesn't do projects, people do projects ;-)
[17:42] <wendar> sladen: was that general design problems or just a new card deck
[17:42] <sladen> I think it was highlighting that the existing Ubuntu card backs were no longer being picked up
[17:43] <sladen> but if it came up, perhaps that indicators that it has some mindshare
[17:43] <mhall119> AlanBell: aisleriot is the gnome card cames
[17:43] <mhall119> games
[17:43] <mhall119> solitaire, freecell, etc
[17:44] <antdillon> http://live.gnome.org/Aisleriot
[17:44] <oreneeshy> wendar: what is the rational for this choices?
[17:44] <doctormon> Part of the research should be to look at the comments in the software center too.
[17:44] <thorwil> i suspect that aisleriot will not offer much room for improving the ux. with 4digits, the shortcomings of the ui might be part of the game
[17:44] <wendar> oreneeshy: we're looking for something small, that we could do in a week or two
[17:45] <mhall119> thorwil: the suggestion for aisleriot was to make an ubuntu-themed set of card images
[17:45] <oreneeshy> ok.
[17:45] <mhall119> which means it likely won't be accepted upstream
[17:45] <doctormon> Of course not, but we could make a package for an ubuntu theme surely.
[17:45] <mhall119> or we could do a non-ubuntu-specific set of art, which might
[17:45] <wendar> oreneeshy: to walk through one full process including (simple) user journeys, design drafts, implementation and launch
[17:45] <mhall119> doctormon: yes we could
[17:45] <oreneeshy>  makes sense
[17:46] <wendar> oreneeshy: different people will have different interests, but personally, I'm really interested in walking through with your current workflow
[17:46] <mhall119> oreneeshy: it was more to test our processes with a real-life, but small scope, project
[17:46] <wendar> oreneeshy: to get a sense of what you do an how
[17:47] <wendar> oreneeshy: (for the people who are interested in tools for workflow, that would be valuable too, as examples)
[17:47] <wendar> 4digits is http://fourdigits.sourceforge.net/
[17:47] <doctormon> wendar: OK we should start to get commitments in the last 12mins of the meeting.
[17:47] <oreneeshy> wendar: sure. the tools are critical in that sense I agree
[17:48] <wendar> I asked the developer if he'd be interested in being an example project for a group of Ubuntu designers, and he was enthusiastic
[17:49] <wendar> did we hear back from asilerot?
[17:49] <wendar> *AisleRot
[17:50] <wendar> 4digits is currently in Debian, will be in Precise (sync'd to universe), but is unlikely to be on the CD
[17:50] <MacSlow> got to go
[17:51] <wendar> Let's do this as a quick show of hands.
[17:52] <wendar> Who is interested in working on simple design improvements to AisleRot?
[17:52] <doctormon> No art people in the house?
[17:53] <wendar> Who is interested in working on simple design improvements to 4digits?
[17:53] <wendar> o/
[17:53] <doctormon> \o
[17:53] <jasox>  I would like to try.
[17:54] <wendar> great!
[17:54] <doctormon> Cool, looks like we have a team for 4digits.
[17:55] <oreneeshy> cool
[17:56] <wendar> We'll start on that this week.
[17:56] <wendar> 4 minutes left, what else do people plan to work on this week?
[17:57] <doctormon> I'll be ready with that ethersketch alpha by next week.
[17:57] <oreneeshy> wendar: plan for tools is we do them as they need emerges?
[17:57] <wendar> oreneeshy: there are a group of people interested in tools now, so if you're interested, we should get you all talking
[17:58] <oreneeshy> wendar: sounds good
[17:58] <wendar> oreneeshy: it's very much in the "user journey" phase now, working out the processes designers use, and what would be helpful to them
[17:58]  * AlanBell wants to know what proprietary tools are used in the current workflow
[17:58] <doctormon> AlanBell: Google docs and a whiteboard somewhere in london? ;-)
[17:59] <AlanBell> storyboarding on google docs?
[17:59] <doctormon> I have no idea.
[17:59] <AlanBell> hence the question :)
[18:01] <doctormon> OK, I think we're done for this week. Thank you to all those who came and participated.
[18:02] <doctormon> And good luck with your design items for the week.
[18:02] <wendar> Thanks all!
[18:02] <wendar> #endmeeting
[18:02] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 30 18:02:14 2011 UTC.
[18:02] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-design/2011/ubuntu-design.2011-11-30-17.01.moin.txt
[18:03] <AlanBell> oreneeshy: what tools do you use?
[18:04] <oreneeshy> AlanBell: depends
[18:04] <oreneeshy> white board, paper for sketching
[18:05] <oreneeshy> AI / other tool for WF
[18:05] <AlanBell> what is AI and WF?
[18:05] <oreneeshy> graphic tool / google docs for specs
[18:05] <oreneeshy> wireframing
[18:05] <AlanBell> what graphic tool?
[18:05] <oreneeshy> photoshop for mockups
[18:06] <AlanBell> and what other tool?
[18:06] <oreneeshy> Adoeb Ilustrator
[18:06] <oreneeshy> Omnigraph, Visio, pencil, balsamic
[18:06] <AlanBell> ok, so what does Adobe Illustrator do that made you choose it for wireframing?
[18:07] <oreneeshy> not much just know it well
[18:07] <oreneeshy> can do more accurate WF with real dimensions
[18:08] <oreneeshy> also works well with other CS tools
[18:08] <AlanBell> really? you design in cm? no px?
[18:08] <AlanBell> CS tools?
[18:08] <oreneeshy> other wise it doesn't matter
[18:08] <AlanBell> computer science?
[18:08] <oreneeshy> creative suite
[18:08] <oreneeshy> Adobe
[18:08] <AlanBell> adobe stuff again?
[18:09] <oreneeshy> :)
[18:09]  * AlanBell has never used any of that stuff
[18:09] <oreneeshy> unfortunately...
[18:09] <AlanBell> so, dimensions, what units do you work in?
[18:10] <oreneeshy> pixels
[18:10] <AlanBell> err, ok
[18:10] <AlanBell> what doesn't do pixels??
[18:10] <oreneeshy> against a reference display and target density
[18:11] <oreneeshy> has to be in a display framework context though
[18:11] <oreneeshy> so scaling between devices could be considered on early stages
[18:13] <AlanBell> ok, so inkscape does px measurements
[18:13] <AlanBell> it has a zoom correction factor so you can set the DPI you are aiming for
[18:13] <AlanBell> not sure I would want to do anything but 100% to be honest
[18:14] <AlanBell> you can set the export resolution too
[18:15] <AlanBell> so what is omnigraph?
[18:16] <AlanBell> visio is a flowcharting thing, I used that a couple of times about 10 years ago
[18:16] <AlanBell> can draw network diagrams and things too
[18:17] <AlanBell> Microsoft bought it or something I think
[18:17] <AlanBell> Omnigraph is educational maths software?
[18:18] <AlanBell> PCB prototyping? (that sounds fun)
[18:19] <AlanBell> this thing? http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraphsketcher
[18:30] <AlanBell> oreneeshy: when you say balsamic I assume you mean balsamiq which is a software as a service thing like pencil?
[18:31] <oreneeshy> AlanBell: yes
[18:31] <AlanBell> is it better than pencil in any way?
[18:31] <mhall119> Dia is an alternative to Visio, I've used it quite a bit
[18:31] <oreneeshy> AlanBell: onmigraph is a wire framing tool
[18:32] <mhall119> AlanBell: Pencil is SaaS?
[18:32] <AlanBell> omnigraffle?
[18:32] <AlanBell> mhall119: no, balsamiq is like pencil, but SaaS
[18:32] <mhall119> oh, ok
[18:33] <AlanBell> http://konigi.com/tools/omnigraffle-wireframe-stencils that?
[18:34] <AlanBell> http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraffle/ that appears to be the product maybe?
[18:35] <oreneeshy> AlanBell: yes
[18:35]  * AlanBell does not know about obscure programs for the mac :)
[18:35] <oreneeshy> AlanBell: I think pencil is more then enough for sketching though
[18:36] <mhall119> oreneeshy: can we either look at using open source tools, or formats that are compatible with open source tools?
[18:36] <AlanBell> mhall119: this is why I am asking
[18:36] <mhall119> we can't make having a copy of the CS suite a requirement for community engagement
[18:36] <oreneeshy> mhall119: yes if pencil is OS it should be enough
[18:36] <mhall119> it is
[18:36] <AlanBell> using adobe illustrator errects a £500 barrier to collaboration
[18:36] <oreneeshy> we don't need CS necessarily
[18:36] <AlanBell> photoshop again
[18:36] <oreneeshy> I think we can start small
[18:37] <AlanBell> this grapffle thing is $99
[18:37] <oreneeshy> ttools are just their to express ideas
[18:37] <oreneeshy> we can also use google docs - they have quite good drawing tool
[18:37] <AlanBell> and the open tools can be adapted and fixed
[18:37] <oreneeshy> many people now use it for WF
[18:38] <mhall119> cool
[18:38] <mhall119> oreneeshy: I know it's a lot to ask for you guys to abandon the tools you're familiar with, so file compatibility is enough to make me happy
[18:39] <AlanBell> what I want is for the Free tools to be *better* for designing stuff for Ubuntu
[18:39] <oreneeshy> AlanBell: mhall119 http://mortenjust.com/2010/04/19/a-wireframe-kit-for-google-drawings/
[18:39] <AlanBell> omnigrapffle seems to have a heap of templates and stencils for designing stuff for iPad and suchlike
[18:39] <oreneeshy> http://googledocs.blogspot.com/2010/05/rapid-wireframe-sketching-in-google.html
[18:39] <mhall119> AlanBell: we've got a couple decades of work to catch up on to get there
[18:39] <AlanBell> what we don't have is stuff for designing things for Ubuntu
[18:39] <oreneeshy> :)
[18:40] <mhall119> AlanBell: that's where I'd like to see an extensive Pencil stencil collection made
[18:40] <AlanBell> exactly
[18:40] <mhall119> for Unity/Ambiance, and also the web themes
[18:40] <AlanBell> indeed
[18:41] <mhall119> once I had my launcher button stencils in Pencil, it was easy to build my Unity TV mockup
[18:41] <oreneeshy> AlanBell: dont know about pencil but g docs can role versioning as well comments and white boarding - so you can sketch and chat on the same page
[18:41] <AlanBell> versioning is interesting, could store pencil components in bzr
[18:42] <oreneeshy> its also available form any platform
[18:42] <AlanBell> however doctormon has a plan which is way more exciting
[18:42] <AlanBell> I am not too bothered about things being available cross platform
[18:42] <mhall119> AlanBell: storing Pencil stuff in bzr will be a pain, because it's XML and then it's compressed
[18:43] <AlanBell> true
[18:43] <mhall119> oreneeshy: does g docs let you create reusable widgets, for things like Unity Launcher buttons?
[18:44] <mhall119> that's my favorite part of Pencil
[18:44] <oreneeshy> mhall119: it's called stencil and the guy writes on it in the blog post
[18:44] <oreneeshy> u dont have a stencil but you can copy p[aste between docs
[18:45] <oreneeshy> so one doc could be the stencil and people copy paste items between docs
[18:45] <mhall119> btw, AlanBell, you can import my Unity stencils into Pencil 1.3.2, I can walk you though
[18:45] <AlanBell> is there anything in that which makes storyboarding of wireframes interesting?
[18:45] <AlanBell> mhall119: already done it :)
[18:45] <mhall119> I'm going to stick with the 1.2 standalone version, I like it better
[18:45] <mhall119> AlanBell: oh, ok, cool
[18:46] <AlanBell> I want to do an Ubuntu window frame
[18:46] <mhall119> AlanBell: +1
[18:46] <AlanBell> with turn on and offable buttons and shadow
[18:47] <AlanBell> and I am going to integrate a comment service on the output I think
[18:53] <mhall119> I'm creating a bzr branch for the unity stencils, what project should I push that to?
[18:53] <mhall119> or should I create a new project in LP for them?
[18:55] <mhall119> wendar: sladen: ^^
[18:55] <sladen> now that's a good question
[18:55] <wendar> mhall119: it seems sensible to use ubuntu-design
[18:56] <mhall119> wendar: is that a project name?
[18:56] <wendar> it's a team, not a project
[18:56] <mhall119> right, I need lp:~ubuntu-design/<project>/pencil-stencils-unity
[18:56] <sladen> there is ~ubuntu-design  and  ubuntu-design
[18:57] <sladen> it would be possible to  push to  lp:~ubuntu-design/ubuntu-design/pencil-stencils-unity
[18:57] <mhall119> launchpad.net/ubuntu-design/ has nothing
[18:57] <sladen> but in this case, 'pencil-stencils-unity' is really the project
[18:57] <mhall119> so I should make a new LP project then
[18:58] <wendar> or just 'pencil-stencils'?
[18:58] <mhall119> yeah
[18:58] <mhall119> or ubuntu-pencil-stencils
[18:58] <thorwil> AlanBell: i use inkscape for mockups professionally. i don't think it has to stand behind illustrator in this context (illustrator does have some more tricks up its sleaves)
[18:59] <thorwil> or in other words, where detailed vector work is needed or beneficial, inkscape does the trick
[18:59] <thorwil> now i really have to look into pencil. last time i checked was too early
[19:01] <thorwil> was hoping i could use the standalone version, but "Could not find compatible GRE between version 1.9.1 and 1.9.2.*." :/
[19:02] <AlanBell> yes, standalone is somewhat dropped
[19:02] <AlanBell> they don't seem to be building it upstream, and we dropped xulrunner so it wouldn't work anyway
[19:02] <mhall119> did we ever establish a moderated team for design?
[19:03] <AlanBell> ooh, no branches :)
[19:03] <mhall119> no branches?
[19:03] <AlanBell> on open teams
[19:03] <mhall119> I thin you can, but no PPAs
[19:03] <AlanBell> oh, ok
[19:04] <AlanBell> thorwil: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs/Pencil
[19:05] <thorwil> yes, saw that, ty
[19:05] <sladen> There Xara3D too
[19:05] <AlanBell> the export template makes storyboards with query fades like this http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/
[19:05] <sladen> which kwwii used to use quite a lot
[19:05] <mhall119> doh, set it to the wrong team
[19:05] <mhall119> cjohnston: you around?
[19:06] <cjohnston> at work
[19:06] <mhall119> cjohnston: can you add me to ubuntu-design-drafters when you have a minute?
[19:06] <AlanBell> http://www.xara.com/uk/products/xara3d/features/ this thing that looks like blender?
[19:07] <mhall119> AlanBell: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-design/ubuntu-pencil/pencil-stencils-unity
[19:07] <mhall119> AlanBell: "make" will create the Unity.zip from the Definition.xml, "make update" will extract the Definition.xml from Unity.zip
[19:07] <AlanBell> cool
[19:08] <mhall119> so if you make changes in Pencil, export the collection to Unity.zip in the branch directory, run "make update", and it should be ready to commit
[19:08] <mhall119> we'll just have to be careful when merging
[19:08] <AlanBell> what is the difference between a private collection and a regular collection?
[19:08] <mhall119> AlanBell: I have no idea
[19:09] <mhall119> I think private collections get saved in ~/.pencil, rather than the system-wide folder
[19:09] <AlanBell> ok, because your unity.zip wouldn't import as a regular collection, but got added straight in as a private one
[19:09] <mhall119> which probably only made sense on the standalone version
[19:09] <mhall119> AlanBell: maybe there's a structural difference too, I don't know
[19:10] <AlanBell> collection specification not found in archive
[19:10] <AlanBell> wonder if there is some kind of manifest file that it needs
[19:13] <mhall119> hmm...
[19:14] <cjohnston> k
[19:15] <AlanBell> just installed the DoJo UI Widgets, that worked fine as a regular collection http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/Downloads/Stencils.aspx
[19:15] <AlanBell> no extra files in the zip, just Definition.xml and some png files
[19:16] <wendar> mhall119: added you to ubuntu-design-drafters
[19:17] <AlanBell> oh, very different XML
[19:19] <mhall119> wendar: thanks
[19:31] <mhall119> AlanBell: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-pencil I've made a series for each of our Pencil resources, and put them in bzr branches
[19:31] <mhall119> if you want to change the wiki references to use them, instead of our people.u.c uploads
[19:36] <AlanBell> will do
[21:40] <mmiicc> Just looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam/Resources. I would go with Gpick (http://code.google.com/p/gpick/) instead of Agave. Has more features and it is still maintained.
[22:22] <mhall119> AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html what do you think of the remote with button hilights?


[00:00] <rick_h_> http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/04/exclusive-a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-facebook-release-engineering/
[00:01] <rick_h_> hate on facebook, but bittorrent based deploy is badass
[00:19] <snap-l> shakes808: It's just a regular X120e with some stickers on it
[00:19] <shakes808> But your Win key is a Ubuntu key... and that would mean that MS didn't get their share
[00:19] <shakes808> or is that the sticker that you mention
[00:20] <snap-l> rick_h_: Facebook is definitely one of the leaders in being creative with deployments
[00:20] <snap-l> shakes808: That's a sticker pack
[00:20] <shakes808> gotcha
[00:21] <snap-l> our supply got decimated at the release party
[00:21] <snap-l> but I'll try to get some more before Ohio Linuxfest
[00:22] <shakes808> sweet
[00:22] <shakes808> :D
[00:22] <shakes808> If I am looking for a new laptop, is the thinkpad's that good?  Base was 800 and ended up 1624
[02:03] <shakes808> lol
[02:05] <shakes808> T series
[02:11] <rick_h_> phew, riding at night is a bit more interesting
[02:11] <rick_h_> and dammit, lost my 3rd back light flashy thingy
[02:11] <rick_h_> greg-g: how do you get those things to stay on? Tempted to weld one next time
[02:14] <greg-g> rick_h_: some of them are annoying. which style do you have? other than zip-ties the next bet is black electrical tape :)
[02:15] <greg-g> brb
[02:16] <rick_h_> I have these clip ons and last time I zip tied after it was clipped on, no idea how I lost it tonight
[03:50] <snap-l> http://www.analogindustries.com/blog/entry.php?blogid=1336705207848
[03:51] <snap-l> If you think Linux audio is a bitch, just thank your lucky stars it doesn't require a papal-ring kiss to make it work.
[11:21] <shakes808> Good morning all
[11:24] <rick_h_> party
[11:24] <rick_h_> TGIF
[11:25] <shakes808> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNRsDqnUjXE
[11:30] <shakes808> http://shirt.woot.com
[11:30] <shakes808> ^^^^^^^  Is funny
[11:53] <brousch> snap-l: i got another box filled with hundreds of  CDs in the mail yesterday
[11:53] <brousch> thanks
[11:56] <snap-l> brousch: You're welcome. :)
[11:56] <brousch> i think i got rid of a dozen from the last box
[11:56] <snap-l> GOing to be a little more slow in distributing these, but if anyone wants them, LMK
[11:57] <snap-l> brousch: I got rid of all of them.
[11:57] <snap-l> Penguicon free table.
[11:57] <brousch> nice
[11:59] <brousch> free table. good idea. we'll do that at barcampgr
[12:08] <brousch> tedx was pretty good
[13:51] <brousch> rick_h_: http://3rdaverad.io/shows/django-podcast/episodes/episode-1/
[13:55] <rick_h_> ruh roh...
[14:04] <rick_h_> brousch: yay, Django has bcypt :P
[14:04] <rick_h_> sorry, having a hard time listening to these guys, background hum, first guy is kind of annoying :/
[14:04] <brousch> i haven't listened yet. no spilers!
[14:04] <rick_h_> hah!
[14:04] <rick_h_> nvm, I said nothing
[14:05] <brousch> bad sound quality can be a bummer
[14:05] <rick_h_> it's not bad, but ugh
[14:21] <jrwren> it does?
[14:21] <jrwren> oh you are making fun.
[14:21] <rick_h_> jrwren: what does?
[14:21] <jrwren> django has bcrypt.
[14:22] <jrwren> i was like, wtf ?
[14:22] <jrwren> but now I see, you are making fun.
[14:22] <rick_h_> 1.4 added support for it if you choose to install/get it
[14:22] <rick_h_> so they *finally* got it was the joke
[14:22] <rick_h_> been sha-1 I think forever
[14:24] <rick_h_> https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/auth/#using-bcrypt-with-django
[14:38] <snap-l> rick_h_: Next you'll see then start using sqlalchemy and yui
[14:38] <rick_h_> :P
[14:38] <snap-l> And real MVC
[14:38] <snap-l> Unicorns will frolick in the forest
[14:39]  * snap-l reminds himself that it's probably a bad idea to taunt rick_h_ while he's in the middle of Django coding
[14:39] <rick_h_> not yet, come monday, today I'm killing thousands of lines of doctests with my flaming sword
[14:39] <snap-l> It's like dousing yourself in sports drinks over the pits of hell.
[14:40] <snap-l> eventually someone will get lucky and grab your ankle.
[14:40] <snap-l> and there will be hell to pay.
[14:40] <snap-l> (no pun intended)
[14:46] <brousch> bah, humbug
[14:56] <brousch> rick_h_ is a puppy dog
[14:56] <snap-l> Cerberus
[14:57] <rick_h_> woof
[15:07] <jrwren> real mvc is bullshit.
[15:08] <jrwren> django is real mvc, they just named things wrong. view function is controller. template is view. DONE
[15:46] <shakes808> snap-l: are you having problems with pidgin under the work XMPP?
[15:47] <snap-l> Yeah, they're rebooting the VM that the IM server is on
[15:47] <shakes808> Oh, ok. lol. All of a sudden I didn't see my list of employees.
[15:47] <shakes808> Is that affecting our email as well? Are they on the same server?
[15:48] <snap-l> Not AFAIK
[15:49] <shakes808> I am going to send you an email and send it back when you recieve it. I have been waiting on a response and haven't received it. It has been a while
[15:49] <snap-l> My hope isn't that they hosted all of the infra on the same box
[17:08] <shakes808> This AM flew by, why is the PM going sooooo slooooow?
[17:38] <jrwren> please don't reply to the [discussion] java email. :)
[17:39] <rick_h_> hah
[17:39] <rick_h_> now I have to go look
[18:03] <greg-g> I must no longer be on discussion
[18:03] <brousch> greg-g: i don't see it either
[18:08] <jrwren> might have been a mug email
[18:09] <rick_h_> yea, mug discuss, I don't get it though. Nothing bad in there I guess
[18:17] <shakes808> jrwren: didn't get any java email. I got a job opening for Linux Engineer.
[18:22] <jrwren> sorry, it was the discuss mug.org email list, which a few people here are on.
[18:22] <shakes808> I believe I signed up for both of them.
[18:22] <shakes808> yeah, discuss and announcements
[18:24] <shakes808> lol I want my wrongfully sent email lol ;)
[18:25] <shakes808> speaking of the MUG stuff, has anyone figured out how MUG is going to steal my dues so I can officially become one of you lol
[18:29] <jrwren> i'm not a mug person, i just lurk on the email list
[18:31] <snap-l> What's wrong with the mail to the discuss ist?
[18:32] <devinheitmueller> shakes808: just show up at a meeting and give them $35?
[18:37] <shakes808> devinheitmueller: Alright, sounds good
[18:46] <shakes808> Have a good day and weekend all.
[19:16] <jrwren> snap-l: oracle java is evil and left out of ubuntu for good reason :)
[19:17] <jrwren> if you want to run java, go run solaris
[19:17] <jrwren> on sparc!
[19:17] <greg-g> zing!
[19:17]  * greg-g has fond memories of late night hacking sessions in the pizza box computer lab at UMN
[19:18] <brousch> i used to love those machines because while the macintoshes and PCs were full, the Sun machines were unoccupied
[19:19] <greg-g> all we had in the UMN CS computer labs were solaris machines while I was there, just sparc 5 vs 10 vs something
[19:20] <greg-g> oh, we may have had an NT lab somewhere, but it was small and never used
[19:20] <jrwren> was garbage ever since linux was good enough to run netscape, which was around 1994 :)
[19:20] <greg-g> jrwren: :P
[20:12] <brousch> hm http://investors.geek.net/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=672629
[20:14] <brousch> "maximize shareholder value" is always an ominous phrase
[20:14] <rick_h_> I can't get past the "media" ...what media.  We're coming down back here!"
[20:19] <snap-l> It's "bio-deisel"
[20:20] <greg-g> I KNEW it!
[20:20] <greg-g> that's why all those hippy cars (old diesel mercedes) are so wanted around here
[20:21] <snap-l> It's like a water-bong on wheels
[20:21] <snap-l> blub blub blub bluub lub
[20:22] <greg-g> snap-l: are you sure you never lived in SF?
[20:22] <snap-l> It's not just compost piles they're putting in those tanks
[20:22] <snap-l> greg-g: Everything I learned about SF I learned from jwz and southpark
[20:23] <greg-g> haha
[20:23] <snap-l> ANd the only way I think we'd ever go to SF on purpose is during Folsom
[20:24] <snap-l> because for some reason JoDee wants to see it at some point
[20:24] <jrwren>  /. is a great example of not keeping up with the times.
[20:25] <snap-l> jrwren: I beg to differ
[20:25] <jrwren> you would
[20:25] <jrwren> didn't you work for them?
[20:25] <snap-l> Yep
[20:25] <snap-l>  /. is a good example of what happens when you try to monetize something that is hard to monetize.
[20:25] <jrwren> oh yeah, so hard to monitize.
[20:26] <jrwren> yes somehow EVERY site like that does a great job.
[20:26] <snap-l> jrwren: I was also a fan of /. before I worked there.
[20:26] <snap-l> Name two
[20:26] <jrwren> i was a fan of /. when htey didn't suck.
[20:26] <jrwren> reddit and digg
[20:26] <snap-l> reddit is a link participation circlejerk
[20:26] <jrwren> exactly the same as /.
[20:26] <snap-l> and digg is a link participation circlejerk with more jerking
[20:27] <jrwren> exactly the same as /.
[20:27] <snap-l> bullshit
[20:27] <jrwren> could you be too close?
[20:27] <snap-l>  /. stories have to have some content in them outside of "Hey reddit, I just found this in my pants, what is it?"
[20:27] <greg-g> snap-l: Folsom? Really? Leather is JoDee's thing?
[20:27] <snap-l> greg-g: I think she just wants to see the spectacle of it all
[20:28] <greg-g> oh boy is it a spectacle :)
[20:28] <snap-l> greg-g: Yup
[20:28] <greg-g> snap-l: there is a sub-reddit for that, it's called "gonewild"
[20:28]  * snap-l has seen photos
[20:29] <snap-l> The internet is the great puddle of that which cannot be unseen
[20:29] <jrwren> so she likes to go to City Club too?
[20:29] <snap-l> That and men's locker rooms at a gym
[20:29] <snap-l> jrwren: She hates clubs.
[20:30] <jrwren> but Folsom is ok?
[20:31] <jrwren> how is the difference?
[20:31] <greg-g> jrwren: you been to folsom?
[20:31] <jrwren> nope
[20:31] <greg-g> the one time I was here when it was happening my parents were in town, we didn't go :)
[20:31] <greg-g> maybe this summer with the boy, he'll be 7 months, that's plenty old enough for that
[20:31] <snap-l> jrwren: I have NFC.
[20:31] <jrwren> I can't imagine it is much different from a detroit Noir Leather show
[20:32] <greg-g> jrwren: is that one mostly gay men
[20:32] <greg-g> ?
[20:32] <jrwren> I'd not say mostly.
[20:32] <jrwren> but definitely higher than normal proportions
[20:33] <greg-g> my view on folsom may be scewed by who my friends are here, but I saw a big Bear contingency there based on the photos I saw
[20:34] <jrwren> sounds about right
[20:35]  * greg-g nods
[20:42] <brousch> bears in leather?
[20:42] <brousch> do they ride unicycles?
[20:43] <greg-g> brousch: some do. With or without bike seats.
[20:44]  * brousch is scared to look up bears in leather now
[20:44] <jrwren> think BJ and the Bear and not Pooh
[20:45] <brousch> a trucker and a monkey?
[20:47] <greg-g> bj and the bear is a new one to me
[23:52] <brousch> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5654674
[23:52] <brousch> some good comments
[23:54] <rick_h_> phew, lawn is done...
[23:54] <rick_h_> brousch: yea, I've not tried the native pull request thing so haven't compared
[23:54] <rick_h_> end of the day, each project picks their standards
[23:57] <brousch> i would cry if torvalds called me a moron
[23:57] <rick_h_> I'd take it as a compliment
[23:57] <rick_h_> he at least read it
[23:57] <rick_h_> besides, smart people disagree all the time
[23:58] <rick_h_> what gets me is the fanboi's on both sides with 0 accomplishments to their name taking sides and ranting on the creator of Git/Linux and the creators of the freaking github
[23:58] <rick_h_> you should need 10k github points to chime in, where each point is a follower on your repos
[23:58] <rick_h_> then I'd care about the commenter