[00:01] <hggdh> scatterp: no, now we wait...
[00:01] <scatterp> ok thanks for all the help
[07:36] <roijac> Hi, if I want to report a bug about upgrade procedure (.04 to .10) what package would it be?
[07:39] <roijac> nm, it's update-manager
[07:42] <jibel> roijac, ubuntu-release-upgrader
[07:42] <roijac> ok, thanks!
[07:42] <jibel> yw
[07:43] <roijac> then somebody should update this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage#When_upgrading_Ubuntu_.28or_derivatives.29
[07:57] <jibel> done
[23:08] <abuchbinder-lapt> I filed LP #1059085 last week; is there any way to nudge someone to have a look at it?
[23:08] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1059085 in vim "Lucid: recovery silently deletes data in large files." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1059085


[12:32] <mdke> how are things jsgotangco
[12:33] <mdke> a bit late out of bed eh
[12:33] <jsgotangco> i just woke up
[12:33] <jsgotangco> hehe
[12:33] <jsgotangco> did you get to talk to enrico?
[12:33] <mdke> nope
[12:33] <mdke> but i talked to jeff for a while
[12:34] <mdke> (waugh)
[12:38] <SquishyWaffle> do you have to be a member to get an ubuntu.com email address? :0
[12:39] <jsgotangco> yes, but even members still dont have it yet (waiting)
[12:39] <jsgotangco> mdke: how did it go
[12:39] <mdke> quite well
[12:39] <mdke> jsgotangco, btw meet SquishyWaffle he wants to join the team :)
[12:39] <SquishyWaffle> greetings
[12:39] <jsgotangco> hello SquishyWaffle, i am Jerome
[12:39] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, meet jerome, he works on kde docs so maybe you can work together
[12:40] <SquishyWaffle> ah, great. Yes, I'm very interested in working on the KDE docs
[12:40] <jsgotangco> that's great
[12:40] <jsgotangco> i'll need someone to fill the void
[12:40] <jsgotangco> because KDE docs will be 1.0 by Breezy
[12:41] <SquishyWaffle> Well I'm eager to help with it :)
[12:41] <jsgotangco> have you checked out the repositories or at least know docbook
[12:41] <SquishyWaffle> Our LUG pushes Ubuntu to most of the members so this helps on multiple levels
[12:41] <SquishyWaffle> I've looked at them but I haven't played just yet. Docbook just looks like a typical markup language, should be pretty straightforward.
[12:41] <jsgotangco> yes
[12:42] <jsgotangco> we even have a template in svn just in case
[12:43] <SquishyWaffle> I hear there's supposed to be some meetings to determine priorities but is there any particular area we're focusing on in the KDE docs?
[12:43] <jsgotangco> we plan to hold a meeting anytime this weekend or early next week
[12:43] <jsgotangco> for KDE we only have 2 targets for now
[12:43] <jsgotangco> the quickguide and the user guide
[12:43] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[12:44] <jsgotangco> we're incredibly short of manpower and active committers
[12:45] <SquishyWaffle> well I'm around when you guys are ready :)
[12:45] <SquishyWaffle> I can justify doing some of it at work since it benefits our researchers
[12:45] <mdke> awesome
[12:46] <SquishyWaffle> I might be able to get some others involved from my LUG since we already do a lot of documentation at http://learn.clemsonlinux.org
[12:47] <SquishyWaffle> I can put the word out to the rest of the group at our first fall meeting and maybe we'll get a group of people working on this on-campus eventually. Certaintly helps to be able to meet in person about things to talk
[12:47] <mdke> that would be amazing too
[12:47] <mdke> hopefully by then we'll have a good methodology going
[12:48] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, I'm curious to see how it'll all pan out
[12:49] <mdke> ok well jerome will organise the meeting over the new week or so
[12:49] <SquishyWaffle> This upcoming year we're going to present incoming students who buy their laptops from the campus with the option of Windows XP, Dual Booting Windows/Ubuntu, or Ubuntu only, really looking forward to it :
[12:49] <mdke> AMAZING
[12:49] <mdke> got the cds?
[12:49] <SquishyWaffle> We're thrilled, this campus hasn't been very accepting of Linux but recently we've made lots of progress
[12:50] <SquishyWaffle> we sent out for some Hoary ones ages ago but they never arrived, had lots of Warty back when that was the stable branch
[12:51] <mdke> yeah they ship to the people who didn't order warty first
[12:51] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: where from?
[12:51] <mdke> email em and ask for a big order, they can organise it
[12:51] <SquishyWaffle> jsgotangco: Clemson, South Carolina
[12:51] <mdke> see the shipit FAQ
[12:52] <SquishyWaffle> Well the need for CDs isn't huge since we net install Ubuntu at installfests :)
[12:52] <mdke> ok
[12:52] <mdke> but its cool to give em out
[12:52] <SquishyWaffle> Oh yeah, we hand out tons of burnt ones
[12:52] <SquishyWaffle> Went through the Warty ones in a few days and we had like 50 :)
[12:53] <SquishyWaffle> converted a whole lot of Fedora/Gentoo'ers
[12:53] <mdke> great stuff
[12:53] <SquishyWaffle> Of particular interest I really think the wireless setup stuff needs great attention for a wide variety of situations
[12:54] <mdke> yeah wifi support is not great
[12:54] <SquishyWaffle> Since all of our laptops are wireless equipped, we've had to deal with a lot of different chipsets and hardware. It's usually straightforward but we've had problems with some of the Compaqs
[12:54] <mdke> a lot of laptop testing will go on before breezy
[12:54] <SquishyWaffle> This is one of the most wireless campuses on the east cost, so it's very important :)
[12:54] <SquishyWaffle> And that's good to hear, I need to get our guys suggesting stuff. That is THE biggest stumbling block right now for us as a LUG since everyone uses laptops (it's required by the school).
[12:55] <mdke> whoa
[12:55] <mdke> required?
[12:55] <mdke> do they give em out for free?
[12:55] <SquishyWaffle> yes, it's a big engineering/science school, everything is electronic (admissions, tuition payment, homework, etc.). No, buy on your own :(
[12:56] <SquishyWaffle> But it's good to have. You can get wireless everywhere and it's wonderful to be able to take notes electronically
[12:56] <SquishyWaffle> I had a wiki going for my notes at one time, was awesome to have a searchable scratchpad.
[12:56] <mdke> very cool
[12:58] <jsgotangco> well our svn has been officially silent for the last 12 hours
[12:59] <mdke> quick upload something!
[12:59] <mdke> jsgotangco, i have spent my time on the wiki today
[12:59] <mdke> the wiki is now MOIN ONLY!
[12:59] <jsgotangco> gyah
[01:00] <jsgotangco> i still prefer media wiki
[01:00] <jsgotangco> although moin has great table tags
[01:00] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, I love Mediawiki
[01:00] <jsgotangco> i actually run it in my laptop
[01:00] <jsgotangco> for personal use
[01:00] <jsgotangco> hehe
[01:01] <SquishyWaffle> me too, great for note taking
[01:01] <SquishyWaffle> we're using it to write a book at work, fit that application wonderfully
[01:01] <mdke> i must try that
[01:01] <SquishyWaffle> it's awesome, helps with open-note tests :)
[01:01] <jsgotangco> moin moin is great, although if your hardware is kinda old, its a bit slow
[01:01] <mdke> i'm in the stone age with abiword
[01:01] <SquishyWaffle> moinmoin is perhaps the only words weirder than wiki
[01:02] <mdke> *grins*
[01:02] <jsgotangco> dude, abiword rules, its way better than writer
[01:02] <mdke> hmm
[01:02] <mdke> well...
[01:03] <jsgotangco> it loads a hell lot faster
[01:03] <mdke> true
[01:04] <SquishyWaffle> are ubuntu meetings always this rowdy?
[01:04] <mdke> the CC ones normally are
[01:04] <mdke> the technical ones aren't
[01:05] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:06] <SquishyWaffle> I'm not even going to bother trying for membership until I have enough amassed to make it an obvious decision :)
[01:06] <SquishyWaffle> Just by watching this
[01:06] <mdke> *grins*
[01:06] <mdke> its a strange business
[01:08] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: just talk the talk and you'll get recognized
[01:08] <jsgotangco> even if you do it on the sidelines
[01:08] <mdke> hey once you're in a team its straightforward
[01:08] <jsgotangco> yeah
[01:09] <jsgotangco> mdke: we currently have 3 active svn accounts
[01:09] <SquishyWaffle> so as a non-member, will I be submitting updates to one of you guys once I start working?
[01:09] <jsgotangco> we're freaking on the way the gates of hell
[01:09] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, yeah to the mailing list
[01:09] <mdke> jsgotangco, i told you, don't panic
[01:10] <mdke> it'll be fine
[01:10] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: yes, if you'd like to mess up with docbook, you'll just make a patch and send it to the list
[01:10] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, after a short time, you'll get commit access too
[01:10] <SquishyWaffle> shoot, haven't played with patch in ages :)
[01:10] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, instructions on the wiki
[01:10] <jsgotangco> mdke: like to panic
[01:10] <jsgotangco> I
[01:10] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, we can help too
[01:11] <mdke> jsgotangco, i will help chill you out
[01:11] <mdke> i'm all about chilling
[01:11] <jsgotangco> send me to cape town
[01:11] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[01:11] <mdke> that would help you chill?
[01:12] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: just ignore the make qg part
[01:12] <jsgotangco> mdke: a trip to paradise would be good
[01:12] <mdke> try the pacific ocean
[01:12] <mdke> oh hang on a sec...
[01:12] <jsgotangco> dude
[01:12] <mdke> you live there!
[01:12] <jsgotangco> i live around the pacific ocean
[01:13] <SquishyWaffle> hrm, how are images handled?
[01:13] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, in docbook?
[01:13] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: we use PNG
[01:13] <SquishyWaffle> I'm very visual so I like to do lots of screenshots for applications. I'm talking in terms of getting them to you
[01:13] <jsgotangco> hmm
[01:13] <mdke> email to the list, jsgotangco will push em through
[01:13] <mdke> or just email them to him direct ;)
[01:13] <SquishyWaffle> so your attachment size limit is very high? :)
[01:13] <mdke> no
[01:13] <mdke> actually list isn't a good idea
[01:14] <jsgotangco> its not
[01:14] <mdke> email to any one of us
[01:14] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[01:14] <jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots
[01:16] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[01:38] <mdke> interesting
[01:49] <SquishyWaffle> what packages do I need for this makefile script?
[01:49] <SquishyWaffle> docbook?
[01:49] <jsgotangco> well that went well
[01:49] <mdke> what are you building?
[01:49] <SquishyWaffle> I'm looking at the root of the ubuntu-docs tree
[01:50] <SquishyWaffle> looks to assemble .html files or something
[01:50] <mdke> ignore the makefile stuff
[01:50] <mdke> that is just for packaging the docs
[01:50] <mdke> oh, you can use "make html"
[01:51] <jsgotangco> i dont even make my stuff
[01:51] <jsgotangco> hehe
[01:51] <jsgotangco> i like to do it hardcore
[01:52] <mdke> hmm glad sabdfl is involved
[01:52] <jsgotangco> what is 12 UTC, noon?
[01:52] <mdke> yes
[01:53] <jsgotangco> who that's not so bad here
[01:53] <jsgotangco> (4pm)
[01:53] <jsgotangco> oh wait
[01:53] <jsgotangco> 8pm
[01:53] <jsgotangco> not so bad either
[01:53] <SquishyWaffle> hrm, khelpcenter is executed directly on these .xml files?
[01:54] <mdke> i think so, better ask jsgotangco
[01:54] <SquishyWaffle> trying to look at kde/kynaptic/C/kynaptic.xml and it's horribly garbled in khelpcenter
[01:54] <jsgotangco> no khelpcenter uses KHTML
[01:55] <mdke> ah khelpcenter sucks
[01:55] <mdke> *ksucks
[01:55] <jsgotangco> yelp sucks more though
[01:55] <SquishyWaffle> so what's best to use in KDE?
[01:55] <jsgotangco> skrew you
[01:55] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: we still use Khelpcenter but need to clean it up
[01:56] <jsgotangco> since we use docbook, we can easily create other formats
[01:56] <mdke> ubuntu/kubuntu docs is a topic for the meeting imho
[01:56] <SquishyWaffle> jsgotangco: Am I right by doing a: khelpcenter kde/kynaptic/C/kynaptic.xml?
[01:56] <SquishyWaffle> it comes out as a huge mass of words
[01:57] <mdke> seems khelpcenter doesn't read xml
[01:57] <SquishyWaffle> so I'll probably have ot use yelp from KDE?
[01:58] <mdke> or build the html i guess
[01:58] <mdke> jsgotangco, how do you check your docs?
[02:00] <SquishyWaffle> no idea how to build this html, it doesn't even look like the html.sh file is actually building anything
[02:00] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:00] <jsgotangco> use yelp
[02:01] <jsgotangco> kde doesn't have a docbook xml viewer
[02:01] <jsgotangco> html.sh does't work
[02:02] <SquishyWaffle> is anyone able to run yelp with kde/kynaptic/C/kynaptic.xml without getting a boatload of errors and a blank page?
[02:03] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle: its probably not well-formed xml
[02:03] <SquishyWaffle> yargh :/
[02:03] <jsgotangco> hold on let me check
[02:04] <mdke> looks fine
[02:05] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:05] <jsgotangco> haha
[02:05] <mdke> works here
[02:05] <jsgotangco> my kubuntu doesn't have docbook in the first place
[02:05] <jsgotangco> thats why its not validating
[02:05] <jsgotangco> hehe
[02:05] <SquishyWaffle> I've got docbook, is there any sub-packages that are needed?
[02:06] <mdke> maybe the yelp dependencies aren't right
[02:06] <jsgotangco> i have to check
[02:06] <jsgotangco> yelp depends on something like 29 packages
[02:07] <jsgotangco> (strange that it also gets mozilla-firefox)
[02:07] <SquishyWaffle> heh
[02:07] <jsgotangco> let me review the CC meeting first
[02:07] <jsgotangco> the last part is quite interesting
[02:07] <mdke> review?
[02:07] <jsgotangco> i was roaming around when
[02:07] <mdke> ah when i kicked off?
[02:07] <mdke> ok
[02:07] <mdke> i/it
[02:07] <jsgotangco> im in a client atm
[02:08] <jsgotangco> its only 8am
[02:10] <mdke> thats the stuff
[02:10] <mdke> all clear with the step by step patch thing?
[02:10] <SquishyWaffle> oh, you want every minor change documented with a patchfile?
[02:10] <mdke> no no
[02:10] <mdke> just whatever you want to do
[02:11] <SquishyWaffle> oh ok, didn't know because some people are that way with CVS and C/C++ development :0
[02:11] <mdke> after you've worked on it and want to go to bed, patch
[02:11] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[02:11] <SquishyWaffle> I can issue a patch statement from the root directory and get everything in one hit, right?
[02:12] <jsgotangco> well
[02:12] <jsgotangco> we would rather patch small
[02:12] <SquishyWaffle> so a per-file basis?
[02:12] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:12] <SquishyWaffle> ok, working on the quickguide atm
[02:12] <jsgotangco> kde?
[02:12] <SquishyWaffle> yup, found a few little glitches
[02:12] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:12] <jsgotangco> blame me
[02:13] <SquishyWaffle> it happens, that's what I'm here for :0
[02:13] <jsgotangco> feel free to mess up with the structure
[02:13] <jsgotangco> im just doing screenshots for now
[02:13] <SquishyWaffle> it looks neat, I like the introduction and the legend
[02:18] <jsgotangco> wtf even yelp looks good in KDE
[02:18] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, not bad
[02:19] <jsgotangco> hmmm there's a problem with kynaptic.xml
[02:20] <SquishyWaffle> it was pretty mangled
[02:20] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:20] <mdke> seems to validate here
[02:20] <mdke> and i can view it perfectly
[02:20] <jsgotangco> hold on, i'll brb and reboot to ubuntu (in kubuntu)
[02:25] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:25] <jsgotangco> am i missing something
[02:25] <jsgotangco> even in gnome, the file isnt valid
[02:25] <mdke> whats wrong with it?
[02:25] <jsgotangco> no idea
[02:25] <mdke> i'll do you a screenshot
[02:26] <mdke> http://www.mdke.org/images/yelp.png
[02:27] <jsgotangco> nice domain
[02:27] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:27] <mdke> got it recently
[02:27] <jsgotangco> hmm wtf is not here
[02:27] <jsgotangco> i have docbook
[02:27] <mdke> i'm not on ubuntu
[02:27] <jsgotangco> xslt
[02:27] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[02:27] <mdke> but its working
[02:28] <jsgotangco> what are you using?
[02:28] <mdke> and the validate script is fine
[02:28] <mdke> gentoo
[02:28] <mdke> don't make me turn on my laptop
[02:29] <SquishyWaffle> argh gentoo
[02:29] <mdke> argh kubuntu
[02:29] <mdke> :p
[02:29] <SquishyWaffle> mmmm
[02:29] <SquishyWaffle> emerge kubuntu
[02:29] <jsgotangco> gentoo, so you like it hard
[02:30] <SquishyWaffle> I love that picture of the boat on bottom of that ricer site :)
[02:31] <SquishyWaffle> "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others"
[02:31] <SquishyWaffle> http://funroll-loops.org/gentoo.jpg
[02:31] <mdke> :(
[02:32] <SquishyWaffle> that website is hilarious, lots of good quotes
[02:32] <mdke> will check it out
[02:32] <SquishyWaffle> it's worth a chuckle
[02:32] <jsgotangco> is that the one with Ubuntu with the cleavage
[02:32] <SquishyWaffle> no, that's the one with big racecars and little spoilers
[02:32] <SquishyWaffle> Gentoo Ricers :)
[02:32] <SquishyWaffle> http://funroll-loops.org
[02:33] <jsgotangco> ahhh Type R fans
[02:33] <jsgotangco> i used to drive a Type R before i got married
[02:33] <mdke> oh thats so harsh
[02:34] <SquishyWaffle> heh, well read some of the quotes, they are amusing
[02:34] <mdke> yeah
[02:34] <SquishyWaffle> "Binary packages are bad! If you don't use your system to compile itself, it will lose the ability to compile itself. Huge systems like gnome, libc etc. are constantly decaying into complexity. Your pain is necessary, because a fraction of people like you will try and relieve that pain by improving the system."
[02:35] <SquishyWaffle> and it's got a shot of an old P1 with a Turbo button on the bottom :)
[02:35] <mdke> so true
[02:35] <mdke> *grins*
[02:35] <SquishyWaffle> those things were wicked
[02:35] <mdke> gentoo rocks
[02:35] <SquishyWaffle> I'd push my turbo button before playing Commander Keen and I was rockin
[02:35] <mdke> "Sure, the extra 2% you gain from optimizing for your CPU is nice, but that's not main the reason to use Gentoo. It's about control. I have two words for the anti-Gentoo critics: "use variables". That's the power of Gentoo, being able to choose whether or not you want to install all of KDE just to get arts, or whether you want to enable gnome support in Abiword. No RPM-based distro can do that."
[02:36] <mdke> hey thats true
[02:36] <jsgotangco> hmm
[02:36] <jsgotangco> mdke
[02:36] <jsgotangco> help me out think
[02:36] <mdke> what errors does the validate script give you?
[02:36] <jsgotangco> no not that thing
[02:36] <jsgotangco> for the meeting
[02:36] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:37] <mdke> wassup?
[02:37] <jsgotangco> how should i start this email
[02:37] <mdke> don't make it too melodramatic
[02:38] <jsgotangco> hah
[02:38] <mdke> send me what you have and i'll look at it when i wake up?
[02:38] <mdke> its 2 am
[02:38] <jsgotangco> "hey dudes, let's meet up and rock the casbah at"
[02:38] <jsgotangco> nah, i'll just review the irclog
[02:38] <SquishyWaffle> where are the conventions stored? I'm trying to come up with a list of the various tags like <note>
[02:39] <mdke> not sure they all are tbh
[02:39] <mdke> if you come up with such a list, put it on the wiki it would be an excellent tool
[02:39] <jsgotangco> you can use bluefish though
[02:39] <SquishyWaffle> hrm, /common/C/conventions.xml
[02:39] <SquishyWaffle> I may just do that mdke
[02:39] <mdke> hey i'd read it
[02:39] <mdke> would be good for newcomers too
[02:39] <mdke> jsgotangco, just say, the docteam needs to review its targets and directions and that canonical people have expressed a wish to help out and bring us closer to the community
[02:40] <mdke> jsgotangco, then ask for availability and agenda
[02:40] <SquishyWaffle> DocteamVariousTags sound like a good page name?
[02:40] <jsgotangco> *sigh* i have to check the wiki then, i hate the wiki
[02:41] <mdke> jsgotangco, i will help out in whatever way you want me to
[02:41] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, sure whatever you like, make sure you link it in the docteam section tho
[02:41] <jsgotangco> ill refer to past wiki entries
[02:42] <mdke> cool
[02:42] <mdke> bed for me
[02:42] <mdke> good night y'all
[02:42] <jsgotangco> night see you later then in a few hours
[02:42] <mdke> gimme 8 hours
[02:42] <mdke> ;)
[02:44] <mdke> my god that guy Mez
[02:44] <mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewbieGods
[02:45] <SquishyWaffle> rofl
[02:45] <mdke> jsgotangco, can you explain what sabdfl was talking about when he referred to email addresses @ubuntu.com during the docteam discussion?
[02:45] <mdke> i must have missed that particular argument
[02:45] <SquishyWaffle> ugh, spelling error on that page, must fix :)
[02:47] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[02:47] <jsgotangco> ohh
[02:47] <jsgotangco> he was referring to jdub
[02:48] <mdke> ??
[02:48] <mdke> there was some dispute over his email address?
[02:48] <jsgotangco> no no no
[02:48] <mdke> ;)
[02:48] <jsgotangco> he was referring to the mini flame war that involved sean, jdub and others who decided to dive in
[02:49] <mdke> oh well
[02:49] <mdke> maybe I misunderstood
[02:49] <jsgotangco> Newbie Gods?
[02:49] <jsgotangco> oh now its about power
[02:49] <mdke> jsgotangco, from the meeting, but Mez has already taken it up like its an official project
[02:49] <mdke> open source is exhausting
[02:50] <mdke> <-- bed for real now
[02:50] <jsgotangco> okay
[02:55] <SquishyWaffle> think the <command> tag might be broken
[03:17] <SquishyWaffle> Check this out: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamDocBookTags
[03:31] <jsgotangco> hmmm nice
[03:37] <SquishyWaffle> definitely not a complete list but it's a start
[03:44] <SquishyWaffle> howdy
[03:44] <jeffsch> howdy
[03:45] <jeffsch> SquishyWaffle: are you greg taylor?
[03:45] <SquishyWaffle> Yes I am, jeff
[03:46] <jeffsch> cool. I just saw DocteamDocBookTags
[03:46] <jeffsch> it's good to have.
[03:46] <SquishyWaffle> good deal, I was hoping it wasn't already done
[03:46] <jeffsch> I have started a styleguide. see StyleGuideDiscussion
[03:47] <jeffsch> maybe you could move DocteamDocBookTags info to there?
[03:47] <SquishyWaffle> sure, doesn't look like the make pdf stuff is working though
[03:48] <jeffsch> yeah. it only works if you have apache fop installed.
[03:48] <SquishyWaffle> ahhh
[03:48] <jeffsch> I put a pdf in the repos yesterday, though
[03:48] <SquishyWaffle> what's the package for fop?
[03:49] <jeffsch> if i had a brain, i would be able to remember how I got the fop stuff :-(
[03:49] <SquishyWaffle> heh, no biggy
[03:49] <jeffsch> i think i got it directly from apache
[03:49] <SquishyWaffle> doesn't look like yelp is letting me view that thing either, shoot
[03:49] <SquishyWaffle> make html worked, that's just as good
[03:49] <jeffsch> yelp is working fine for me...
[03:50] <SquishyWaffle> I tell ya what, let me work on the tag listing for a while and make sure it's complete before moving it to that. I may re-organize the list as I learn more about the doc system
[03:51] <jeffsch> no problem.
[03:53] <jsgotangco> jeffsch!
[03:53] <jeffsch> howdy
[03:53] <jsgotangco> i'm calling a meeting
[03:54] <jeffsch> ok
[03:54] <jsgotangco> sabdfl, jdub and mako are interested in joining
[03:54] <jeffsch> what's it about?
[03:55] <jsgotangco> well we just had a CC meeting a few hours ago and sabdfl was pretty worried over the mini flame war in the list
[03:55] <jsgotangco> so first thing in agenda is to review our targets
[03:55] <jsgotangco> at least update what we've been doing
[03:56] <jsgotangco> second is at least chart a roadmap of what approach we would want to do with work
[03:56] <jsgotangco> third is involve CC and create common ground so we can work together
[03:57] <SquishyWaffle> CC?
[03:57] <jsgotangco> Community Council
[03:57] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[03:58] <jsgotangco> i'm going to convince froud to attend, given that he has just withdrew his name in the list and deleted his details from the wiki
[04:01] <jsgotangco> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html
[04:02] <jsgotangco> transcript about docteam starts at 01:34
[04:09] <SquishyWaffle> what's this about @ubuntu.com email addresses?
[04:13] <jdub> SquishyWaffle: members get addresses, but they haven't been set up yet
[04:14] <SquishyWaffle> have there been arguments about this? I'm not sure how that was relevant to the meeting
[04:15] <jdub> oh, not about that
[04:15] <jdub> the reference there was about a comment on the mailing list
[04:15] <jdub> about the relative strength of people who have ubuntu.com addresses
[04:16] <SquishyWaffle> what do you mean by that?
[04:16] <jdub> there's a bit of an insider/outsider feel sometimes
[04:17] <jdub> which has been exacerbated by members not having ubuntu.com addresses
[04:17] <SquishyWaffle> I can agree with that
[04:17] <jdub> it's just a perspective thing
[04:17] <SquishyWaffle> but I don't think it'd be in the interest of them to hand out addresses to every single user. That becomes a substantial infrastructure problem.
[04:19] <jdub> no, just ubuntu members
[04:19] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle, we're going to fix that
[04:20] <SquishyWaffle> Eh?
[04:20] <jdub> elmo's going to fix that ;)
[04:20] <SquishyWaffle> I assume elmo is a server admin?
[04:20] <jdub> yes
[04:20] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:20] <jsgotangco> no i mean the communication problem
[04:20] <jdub> oh right
[04:21] <jdub> yes, there is going to be much rocking for breezy
[04:21] <SquishyWaffle> growing pains :)
[04:21] <jsgotangco> im going to send an email to the ubuntu-doc, ubuntu-devel about the planning a meeting about this as well as update on whats been happening on svn
[04:22] <jdub> our users will gasp and shiver!
[04:22] <jsgotangco> i'm pretty worried about what will be delivered in time
[04:22] <jdub> jsgotangco: what's your planned time for the meeting?
[04:22] <jsgotangco> probably next week if its reasonable but time would be an issue
[04:23] <jsgotangco> so i should get a consensus first
[04:23] <jdub> sometimes better to propose a time, and see how it fits
[04:23] <jsgotangco> hmm ok for us its not a problem
[04:23] <jdub> otherwise you'll just get a meandering thread with no resolution ;)
[04:23] <jsgotangco> but for our euro fiends
[04:24] <jsgotangco> friends
[04:24] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:24] <jdub> fiends indeed!
[04:24] <jsgotangco> what time do you suggest?
[04:24] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: propose a time that's best for you ;-), and we can take it from there
[04:24] <jsgotangco> okay
[04:25] <jdub> jsgotangco: would suggest not saying 'fiends' in announce mail ;-)
[04:26] <jdub> interhemisphere war is uncomfortable at the best of times
[04:26] <jsgotangco> 12UTC seems acceptable to majority
[04:30] <jeffsch> hmmm.... 12UTC = 5am here
[04:31] <jdub> jeffsch: where are you?
[04:31] <jeffsch> jsgotangco:  can i take back that part about choosing a time that's best for you? :-)
[04:31] <jeffsch> Vancouver
[04:31] <jsgotangco> well ok its either 12UTC or 22UTC
[04:31] <SquishyWaffle> I'm going to have a nice addition to the Kubuntu Quick Guide ready in a while
[04:32] <jsgotangco> awesome
[04:33] <jeffsch> I like 22 better, but my availability is more likely at 12. I can give up sleep, but I prolly can't give up work.
[04:34] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, that styleguide is awesome
[04:34] <jeffsch> It's just a start...
[04:35] <jsgotangco> for a start, its very neat
[04:35] <SquishyWaffle> It's a good idea and is i needed to keep everyone on the same page
[04:36] <jdub> worth checking out the gnome documentation team guidelines too
[04:36] <jdub> very useful
[04:36] <jeffsch> yes. it would be good if we could get input from lots of people too...
[04:36] <jdub> (heavily informed by some of the sun doc dudes)
[04:36] <jeffsch> jdub: yes. there are lots of links to these thinks on StyleGuideDiscussion wiki page
[04:37] <jdub> ahr, missed that one!
[04:37] <jeffsch> I also have Read Me First! by Sun Technical Pubs
[04:38] <jsgotangco> you made a number of good references
[04:38] <jeffsch> ok, i have to go for a while. shower->Dr. Who->food.
[04:38] <jeffsch> cya
[04:52] <SquishyWaffle> ok, tell ya what
[04:52] <SquishyWaffle> let me send you an update so you can see if I'm on the right track
[04:52] <jsgotangco> ok send the patch and ill check
[04:54] <SquishyWaffle> ok, what email do you want it sent to?
[04:56] <jsgotangco> hmm just send it to the list or if you're not confident about it<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:56] <SquishyWaffle> ok, I can do the list thing
[04:57] <SquishyWaffle> sent
[04:58] <jsgotangco> ok its still not there but it should arrive
[04:59] <SquishyWaffle> just now arrived for me
[05:04] <SquishyWaffle> not sure if you'll have to apply kquickguide from the kde dir and the other one from the libs dir
[05:05] <SquishyWaffle> it was saying there were more changes than there were due to some multi-lingual stuff being funky so I had to do it from lower directories
[05:06] <jsgotangco> i dont understand what you mean
[05:07] <SquishyWaffle> you might have to reply those patches from directories other than the root ubuntu-doc
[05:07] <SquishyWaffle> for the KDE one, cd to the kde dir and apply it
[05:07] <jsgotangco> (english is not my primary language)
[05:07] <SquishyWaffle> for the global.ent one, cd to libs and apply it there
[05:15] <jsgotangco> hold on i still get errors
[05:16] <SquishyWaffle> What kind of errors? During patching or when you launch Yelp?
[05:17] <jsgotangco> ok i see the problem now let me revert back
[05:18] <jsgotangco> i'll patch this in a few minutes and you'll see it in the commits list
[05:18] <SquishyWaffle> did I mis-match some tags in a rush to get that patch to you? :)
[05:18] <jsgotangco> i just fixed some stuff
[05:18] <jsgotangco> it messed a couple of stuff as well
[05:19] <SquishyWaffle> ick, that patch went kinda funky
[05:19] <jsgotangco> its ok we all learn for the first time
[05:21] <SquishyWaffle> did you see what I added?
[05:21] <jsgotangco> quickguide patches are ok
[05:21] <jsgotangco> global.ent theres not much to change
[05:22] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, added two lines I believe, changed a .com to a .org since it looks friendlier and non-commercial
[05:23] <SquishyWaffle> we don't have a mailing list index like Ubuntu does to link to so I made the two you had listed under Support clickable with links to the list page for each.
[05:27] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[05:27] <jsgotangco> but we're moving to .com
[05:28] <jsgotangco> henrik is the one doing that
[05:28] <SquishyWaffle> we're moving everything to .com?
[05:28] <jsgotangco> if you notice we're all using ubuntu.com :)
[05:36] <mpt> Can anyone tell me how similar Ubuntu's Gnome menu layout is to that of vanilla Gnome?
[05:41] <jsgotangco> SquishyWaffle, done
[05:42] <jsgotangco> just need to spellcheck
[05:42] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[05:50] <jsgotangco> if it's ok with you, i'll defer the global.ent patch for now to check what will be affected
[05:50] <SquishyWaffle> sure, there will be some broken links on the Getting Help section
[05:51] <jsgotangco> on kquickguide?
[05:51] <SquishyWaffle> yeah
[05:51] <jsgotangco> i think it kind of affected some docs
[05:52] <SquishyWaffle> it shouldn't have, just added two lines
[05:52] <SquishyWaffle> unless the patch somehow got garbled
[05:52] <jsgotangco> ok i'll just edit the global.ent myself then
[05:52] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, it's a quicky
[05:52] <SquishyWaffle> line 61 is where my two lines are added after
[05:53] <SquishyWaffle> values: kubuntu-lists-users and kubuntu-lists-devel.
[05:55] <jsgotangco> ok commited
[05:55] <jsgotangco> ok svn up
[05:55] <SquishyWaffle> good deal, how did you like the sections I added?
[05:55] <jsgotangco> yeah really nice man, thanks
[05:56] <jsgotangco> i gotta eat first
[05:56] <jsgotangco> brb
[05:56] <SquishyWaffle> ok
[05:56] <jsgotangco> ill just post the commit later
[05:56] <SquishyWaffle> k
[09:30] <Burgundavia> I couldn'
[09:30] <Burgundavia> t check it yesterday
[09:31] <Burgundavia> I am subscribed to the bugzilla and breezy changes
[09:31] <robitaille> filters :)
[09:31] <Burgundavia> gmail has them
[09:32] <robitaille> I guess since I also subscribe to bugzilla, I probably reach a couple hundred e-mails per day as well...
[09:32] <Burgundavia> robitaille, are you going to be at the next vlug meeting?
[09:32] <Burgundavia> I would love to sit down with you after the meeting to talk about ubuntu-ca stuff
[09:33] <robitaille> plus another 50-100 per day at work..sigh
[09:33] <jsgotangco> hello canucks
[09:33] <robitaille> Yes I'll try to be at the next vlug meeting
[09:34] <Burgundavia> robitaille, great
[09:34] <robitaille> Hi jsgotangco
[09:34] <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco
[09:37] <robitaille> so jsgotangco , when do you think we'll get our @ubuntu.com e-mails?  The topic keeps coming back today in various channels :)
[09:38] <jsgotangco> let's bug elmo for that
[09:39] <Burgundavia> I had a dream about the fridge (the ubuntu one)
[09:39] <robitaille> I already sent him an e-mail last week that got totally ignored...
[09:39] <Burgundavia> that it was a seperate app
[09:39] <Burgundavia> launched from within synaptic
[09:39] <jsgotangco> omg
[09:39] <robitaille> I have seen the Fridge...still pretty simple, but it's alive
[09:39] <jsgotangco> robitaille, i guess he was pretty busy with sarge coming out
[09:40] <robitaille> yeah, that's what I thought, so I didn't push it with him.
[09:41] <jsgotangco> well sabdfl reminded him about it last night
[09:49] <Burgundavia> robitaille, is the fridge live for all to view?
[09:50] <robitaille> Burgundavia,  no. I got a special sneak preview recently...it is on one of jdub web server.  There is nothing to see really yet.  It's no even  alpha release quality yet
[09:51] <Burgundavia> ah
[09:51] <robitaille> jsgotangco,   I have added the docteam meeting on the Wiki's Calendar
[09:53] <jsgotangco> that's great..thanks
[09:53] <jsgotangco> yeah, its on jdub's dsl
[09:53] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:53] <jsgotangco> wow that article on sabdfl is a good read
[09:54] <jsgotangco> i'm printing this for my wife
[09:55] <robitaille> which article?
[09:56] <jsgotangco> "The Right Stuff"
[09:56] <jsgotangco> http://free.financialmail.co.za/05/0603/cover/coverstory.htm
[09:57] <jsgotangco> im amazed at the links i get from sounder
[09:59] <robitaille> one day all these links will appear on the Fridge :)
[10:00] <jsgotangco> wow
[10:01] <Burgundavia> yes, and MOTUGames has grand plans for the fridge as well
[10:01] <jsgotangco> i bought it in a sale bin
[10:03] <jsgotangco> hmmm loco-contacts mailing list
[10:05] <Burgundavia> I learned that word geek originally meant circus side-show people who bit the heads off chickens
[10:06] <jsgotangco> hmmm where did you find it?
[10:07] <robitaille> the word "loco-contact"  is reminding me of my worse Ubuntu problem these days...  (these canucks simply cannot organize themselves as a loco...)
[10:08] <jsgotangco> hah
[10:11] <Burgundavia> robitaille, to be fair, neither of us has really stepped up and taken charge, as we are the most active in the greater Ubuntu community
[10:12] <robitaille> well, I have tried a little bit...shook things a couple of times; organized an useless vote, etc.   But I'm sane enough not to volunter for the top job :)
[10:13] <robitaille> I cannot say organizing and managing  a loco is really a personal interest of mine
[10:13] <Burgundavia> nor is it mine
[10:16] <Burgundavia> hmm http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4010863593.html
[10:17] <jsgotangco> aiming for Windows98 is so 90s
[10:17] <Burgundavia> there are a lot of 98 machines out there
[10:17] <Burgundavia> and machines that shouldn
[10:17] <Burgundavia> t be running XP
[10:17] <jsgotangco> although this can be a good start
[10:18] <robitaille> I run Win98 in my 2nd partition; it works fine for what I need it for (games for my 5 year old).  So does that mean I could switch him to Mepis :)
[10:21] <jsgotangco> hmmm it just died
[10:21] <Burgundavia> what the heck?
[10:21] <robitaille> that was weird.  And #ubuntu is now off-limit
[10:21] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:21] <jsgotangco> everyone got booted?
[10:22] <robitaille> I got booted
[10:22] <robitaille> anyway, that's a sign that I should go to bed (1:22am).  good night
[10:23] <jsgotangco> hehe night
[10:25] <jsgotangco> man you should live somewhere in europe instead
[10:25] <Burgundavia> lol
[10:57] <Kinnison> You should
[10:57] <Kinnison> come here at once
[10:58] <jsgotangco> there you already have a sponsor
[11:30] <mdke> morning all
[11:34] <mdke> jsgotangco, hows it going?
[11:44] <jsgotangco> hey
[11:44] <jsgotangco> i see you're awake already
[11:45] <jsgotangco> and its only 5:44pm here
[11:45] <mdke> 10.45
[11:47] <jsgotangco> hmmm i wonder how to mess up this box in inkscape
[11:54] <jsgotangco> mdke, ping
[11:55] <mdke> yo
[11:55] <jsgotangco> the email ok with you?
[11:55] <mdke> sure very good
[11:55] <mdke> get a reply from Sean?
[11:55] <jsgotangco> no not yet
[11:55] <jsgotangco> i hope so
[11:55] <jsgotangco> if not, we'll do plan B then
[11:56] <mdke> ?
[11:56] <jsgotangco> Panic hehe
[11:57] <mdke> too much green tea again hey?
[11:57] <jsgotangco> i drink that stuff everyday so its basically part of my bloodstream
[11:58] <jsgotangco> probably aroound 2l of it everday
[11:58] <jsgotangco> well that Taylor dude made a nice patch with kubuntu
[11:58] <jsgotangco> i think he's good material
[12:00] <mdke> yeah looks keen
[12:01] <mdke> whats this about changing global.ents?
[12:01] <jsgotangco> its very minor i let the patch in so he could get a feel for it, but i'm going to fix it up later
[12:02] <jsgotangco> no sense in having so many double entries
[12:02] <mdke> as long as there are no broken links
[12:02] <jsgotangco> sure they won't
[12:02] <jsgotangco> it'll be a disaster
[12:02] <mdke> did you say you were changing addresses to ubuntu.com?
[12:03] <jsgotangco> no not really, robitaille was asking about it i told him it's elmo that's supposed to do something about it
[12:04] <mdke> oh ok
[12:04] <mdke> ubuntu.com is still a redirect afaik
[12:05] <jsgotangco> well i don't really mind about it for now
[12:06] <jsgotangco> doing screenshots is a such a bore
[12:08] <jsgotangco> i found these neat british invasion cds at a sale
[12:11] <mdke> DocteamDocBookTags is cool
[12:11] <mdke> i like that guy
[12:12] <jsgotangco> yeah
[12:12] <jsgotangco> two contribs on the 1st day
[12:12] <jsgotangco> heh
[12:12] <mdke> wow that page is gonna be so useful for new contributors
[12:12] <jsgotangco> even jeffsch think its great
[12:13] <mdke> hey jeff-away likes dr who?
[12:13] <jsgotangco> i've never watched dr who in my entire life
[12:13] <jsgotangco> (its not available in my area)
[12:15] <mdke> if I had a good upload speed i would send some to you
[12:15] <mdke> but sadly it would take several days for one episode
[12:17] <jsgotangco> that's piracy!
[12:17] <jsgotangco> heh
[12:18] <mdke> yeah
[12:18] <mdke> i hear piracy funds terrorism
[12:18] <mdke> and is sponsored by the devil
[12:21] <mdke> right so what am I gonna do today
[12:23] <jsgotangco> you dont have class?
[12:24] <mdke> my course is finished now
[12:24] <mdke> as of last week
[12:24] <jsgotangco> wow
[12:25] <jsgotangco> i want to go home already but its raining so hard outside
[12:26] <mdke> *grins*
[12:26] <mdke> you have monsoons there?
[12:26] <jsgotangco> terrible man
[12:26] <jsgotangco> we have typhoons
[12:26] <jsgotangco> hehe
[12:26] <jsgotangco> monsoons are sissy
[12:26] <mdke> gosh
[12:27] <mdke> is it warm rain tho?
[12:27] <jsgotangco> sometimes yeah
[12:27] <jsgotangco> but not lately
[12:27] <jsgotangco> which means the rainy season is almost here
[12:27] <mdke> bummer
[12:27] <jsgotangco> true
[12:27] <mdke> hi ealden
[12:27] <jsgotangco> my car is so small it might get submerged in flash floods
[12:27] <mdke> *grins*
[12:27] <ealden> Hi :)
[12:28] <mdke> at least you have a car
[12:28] <jsgotangco> (its bigger than a MINI though)
[12:28] <mdke> i would just drown straight off
[12:28] <jsgotangco> mdke, its a cheap korean car
[12:29] <mdke> are they bad?
[12:29] <jsgotangco> actually, its nice
[12:29] <jsgotangco> www.picanto.com
[12:29] <jsgotangco> i hear its quite popular in the UK
[12:29] <mdke> ah i know that
[12:29] <mdke> never seen em here, but lots in italy
[12:29] <jsgotangco> just bought it last november
[12:29] <jsgotangco> ealden, talk heh
[12:29] <mdke> btw, check urls before you make em up ;p
[12:29] <jsgotangco> eh?
[12:30] <mdke> *click*
[12:31] <jsgotangco> are you talking about the email or the global.ent
[12:31] <mdke> picanto.com
[12:31] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[12:31] <jsgotangco> wtf
[12:32] <jsgotangco> oh its www.kia-picanto.com
[12:33] <mdke> argh
[12:33] <jsgotangco> hah
[12:34] <ealden> jsgotangco, heh
[12:34] <jsgotangco> i'm in love with my car
[12:35] <jsgotangco> (its powered by steve jobs though)
[12:40] <ealden> Kernel upgrades...
[12:48] <jsgotangco> hmm i gotta go
[12:48] <jsgotangco> its dark already
[12:48] <jsgotangco> mdke, later
[12:49] <mdke> ok
[12:49] <mdke> night
[12:53] <mdke> wicked
[01:02] <mdke> shit
[01:02] <mdke> gnome 2.10 arrives in gentoo
[01:02] <mdke> my system is gonna be tired...
[01:02] <Burgundavia> lol
[01:03] <mdke> i don't like the sound of that
[01:03] <mdke> does it involve ditching gentoo?
[01:03] <Burgundavia> and thus 100% less compiling from source
[01:03] <mdke> hmm double negative
[01:04] <mdke> without 100% less gentoo = with 100% more gentoo
[01:04] <Burgundavia> how does a source based distro lag so far behind?
[01:04] <mdke> they test it for awhile
[01:04] <mdke> the gnome team isn't very large iirc
[01:08] <mdke> shit 46 packages to compile
[01:14] <Burgundavia> rofl
[01:14] <Burgundavia> lmao
[01:15] <mdke> hmm
[01:15] <mdke> are you laughing at me or with me
[01:37] <mdke> jdub, ping
[03:40] <Burgundavia> mdke, laughing at you, sorry
[03:41] <mdke> *grins*
[03:41] <mdke> i'll have the last laugh
[03:41] <mdke> emerge: (20 of 46)
[03:47] <mdke> hmm
[03:47] <mdke> always got an answer haven't you
[03:47] <mdke> cheeky bastard
[03:48] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:48] <Burgundavia> to both statements
[03:49] <mdke> *laughs*
[03:49] <mdke> :)
[04:02] <jdub> mdke: pong
[04:09] <Burgundavia> jdub, I think he is wrestling his gentoo box to the ground
[04:14] <mdke> jdub, here i am
[04:15] <mdke> jdub, i contacted the founder of this channel recently and asked him to -t the channel, and also maybe transfer the foundership to you, he has made both of us ops
[04:15] <jdub> oh ok
[04:15] <jdub> hrm, i should find someone who really knows about irc to give all of this to ;)
[04:15] <mdke> *laughs*
[04:16] <mdke> /cs access #ubuntu-doc list
[04:18] <mdke> jdub, sorry if I suggested the wrong person, i just figured, since you have #ubuntu and all
[04:18] <jdub> yeah, that's okay
[04:18] <jdub> easier to handle in bulk
[04:18] <mdke> ;)
[04:29] <mdke> hey jalrnc
[04:29] <jalrnc> mdke: hi matt!
[04:29] <mdke> how are ya
[04:29] <jalrnc> mdke: I have a question
[04:29] <mdke> shoot
[04:30] <jalrnc> we are translating the quickguide as you know, and it makes references to application names that show up in the gnome menus
[04:30] <mdke> yes
[04:30] <jalrnc> those application names in gnome already exist when we install portuguese support with ubuntu
[04:30] <mdke> yes
[04:31] <jalrnc> 1. some of those names are not properly translated 2. we would like to have them corrected and so be consistent with quickguide
[04:31] <mdke> ah interesting
[04:31] <jalrnc> how do we go about correcting those menu names?
[04:31] <jalrnc> bug? any other process?
[04:31] <mdke> you'll have to amend the translation in the relevant package
[04:32] <mdke> lets ask carlos
[04:32] <jalrnc> I believe those translations were probably inherited from debian
[04:32] <mdke> probably come from gnome upstream
[04:32] <jalrnc> or that, yes
[04:32] <jalrnc> in that case maybe we should also contact the upstream maintainer/developer responsible for those translations?
[04:33] <jalrnc> if he is portuguese, then it would be nice to have some coordination
[04:33] <mdke> it may be possible to correct it in rosetta then push it upstream
[04:33] <jalrnc> that would work out too, yes
[04:33] <mdke> /j #launchpad
[04:34] <jalrnc> but it also depends on how the upstream developer feels about it, we don't want to cause any conflict, but some names really need some work
[04:34] <mdke> ok, join the #launchpad channel
[05:18] <mdke> goddammit
[05:18] <mdke> ??changed:
[05:18] <mdke> -    * IMPORTANT: do not change the Page name of the SandBox page!
[05:18] <mdke>     * IMPORTANT: do not change the Page name of the MiguelRuiz page!
[05:18] <mdke> people are so thick
[05:24] <jjesse> why would the MiguelRuiz page matter?
[05:24] <jjesse> :):
[05:30] <jdub> Burgundavia: dholback packaged istanbul
[05:30] <Burgundavia> jdub, I am reading the discussion right now. My heart is happy
[06:34] <mdke> dholbach is so the man
[06:43] <mdke> jjesse, i had posted a diff, showing that the SandBox page had been renamed to a personal page. But he has taken care of it :)
[07:16] <jjesse> welcome squishywaffle :)
[07:16] <SquishyWaffle> howdy
[07:51] <mdke> hi SquishyWaffle
[07:51] <mdke> awesome work already
[07:51] <SquishyWaffle> hey mdke, thanks
[07:51] <mdke> i love the tag doc
[07:51] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, I had to have a cheat sheet since I've never messed with this stuff before and figured it'd be useful to make it public
[07:52] <mdke> very useful
[07:53] <SquishyWaffle> So are you guys just editing these docs in vim or equivalent editors or is there any WYSIWYG type deal available?
[07:54] <mdke> i use gedit
[07:54] <mdke> most editors will have syntax highlighting
[07:54] <SquishyWaffle> Yeah, vim has worked out very well
[07:54] <mdke> ok cool
[07:55] <SquishyWaffle> think we need to map out the structure of the ubuntu-doc tree, I had to fumble around to find the globals.ent file. That might be the next thing on my to-do list unless it already exists
[07:55] <mdke> fair enough
[07:56] <mdke> although care should be taken when editing those sort of files
[07:56] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, because the entries are often called by so many
[07:56] <mdke> yes
[07:56] <mdke> so removing things can break links etc
[07:57] <SquishyWaffle> I can include that on the structure page in bold lettering :0
[07:57] <mdke> ok
[07:58] <mdke> but generally the emphasis should be on writing the docs...
[07:59] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, I realize that but I like to fully understand something before I start breaking it from lack of understanding of the big picture :)
[07:59] <SquishyWaffle> Like if I didn't realize that globals.ent existed and just started statically linking to a bunch of stuff, it's inefficient and inflexible to change later
[07:59] <mdke> yes thats fair enough
[08:00] <SquishyWaffle> that and I have too much free time right now
[08:00] <mdke> *laughs*
[08:00] <mdke> good way of spending it
[08:00] <SquishyWaffle> but hey, I get paid to do this since I can justify working on it at work since we're a Kubuntu/Ubuntu shop
[08:00] <mdke> url?
[08:00] <SquishyWaffle> our page is awful pending migration to a new server :) http://gis.clemson.edu
[08:01] <SquishyWaffle> look at the last updated date
[08:01] <mdke> looks alright
[08:01] <SquishyWaffle> that's a Win2k server that I finally bugged my boss to replace with a SuSe Enterprise 9 box
[08:02] <mdke> sounds cool
[08:02] <mdke> so you are at uni as well?
[08:02] <mdke> or you work at one?
[08:02] <SquishyWaffle> I'm both a student and an employee
[08:03] <SquishyWaffle> College is good for collaborative development, nothing beats living next door to a co-developer
[08:04] <mdke> yeah i bet
[08:05] <mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
[08:05] <mdke> gonna try gnome 2.10
[08:05] <SquishyWaffle> yay :)
[08:08] <SquishyWaffle> well you're here so I guess you didn't crash
[08:08] <mdke> looks good
[08:08] <mdke> gnome 2.10 just made it into gentoo you see
[08:08] <SquishyWaffle> So we had it before them?
[08:09] <mdke> oh miles
[08:09] <SquishyWaffle> that surprises me
[08:11] <mdke> well Ubuntu release dates are synchronised with Gnome
[08:11] <mdke> gentoo tests stuff for a while after they are released so it was quite late
[08:13] <SquishyWaffle> my KDE never worked right on Gentoo, made me so mad
[08:14] <SquishyWaffle> I'd click on an mp3 and Xmms would launch like three times
[08:14] <mdke> :/
[08:15] <SquishyWaffle> think they fixed whatever it was
[08:15] <mdke> you would hope so!
[08:16] <SquishyWaffle> I know a kid that had an Inspiron, which is ungodly hot under normal circumstances. Did a complete stage 1 emerge along with KDE and OpenOffice in one swipe and the processor died
[08:17] <mdke> very odd
[08:17] <SquishyWaffle> Their fans sound like lawnmowers when they get hot :)
[08:17] <SquishyWaffle> one of the 5100's/5150's
[08:17] <mdke> so the fan does not cool the processor properly?
[08:17] <mdke> thats good to know
[08:17] <SquishyWaffle> it's a cheap laptop with almost a desktop processor
[08:17] <SquishyWaffle> well the nicer ones are great
[08:17] <SquishyWaffle> but the mid-low grade ones are spooky
[08:18] <mdke> right
[08:18] <SquishyWaffle> once you get into the ones with Centrinos they're very nice
[08:18] <SquishyWaffle> But their P4-Mobility line is scary. I got like 45 minute battery life when I had mine
[08:18] <mdke> no way
[08:18] <SquishyWaffle> And since the bios doesn't have working ACPI support under Linux, power management was awful and I lost even more time on Linux
[08:19] <mdke> that sucls
[08:19] <mdke> sucks
[08:19] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, you have to recompile your kernel with a patch or two just to get basic ACPI support
[08:19] <SquishyWaffle> we've had a lot of luck with IBM's newer Thinkpads though, if you're looking for a new laptop soon
[08:20] <mdke> right
[08:20] <mdke> i have been thinking about it
[08:20] <mdke> i've heard good things about thinkpads
[08:20] <SquishyWaffle> cept for the R40's, have you seen the little light thing on the top of the lid? :)
[08:21] <mdke> i'll look em up
[08:22] <SquishyWaffle> no no don't consider that laptop, they're a disaster waiting to happen. They have this little light in the top of the lid that you hit like FN + F3 and it turns on to light your keyboard
[08:22] <SquishyWaffle> but they break down nonstop and the people who bought these things a few years back have nothing but bad things to say, we spend a lot of time working on them :(
[08:23] <SquishyWaffle> but the light is cool, heh
[08:23] <SquishyWaffle> we're going with the T42's for school next year. The high end model comes with a fingerprint scanner, that'll be neat to see on Linux when drivers are developed.
[08:24] <SquishyWaffle> Although it doesn't run Warty without considerable effort, it looks to do fine on Hoary
[08:24] <mdke> right
[08:24] <mdke> ubuntu compatibility would be high priority
[08:25] <SquishyWaffle> yeah, definitely. Especially wireless
[08:26] <SquishyWaffle> Only bad thing is those T42's have ATI cards and the drivers haven't been perfected yet so performance is dimished slightly in comparison to Windows drivers.
[08:29] <jdub> mdke: the dell X300 or X1 is a good choice (they're rebadged samsung Q20 and Q30s respectively)
[08:29] <mdke> i'll make a note
[08:30] <mdke> thanks jdub
[08:48] <mdke> SquishyWaffle, have you seen http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LaptopTestingTeam ?
[08:48] <jjesse> i'm running a dell laptop on ubuntu w/ no issues
[08:49] <jjesse> inspiron 5150
[08:51] <SquishyWaffle> mdke: That sounds vaguely familiar, let me take a peek
[08:51] <SquishyWaffle> jjesse: That's what I ran for a good while :)
[08:51] <jjesse> its works computer, no budget for a personal computer :(
[08:51] <jjesse> dual boot xp and ubuntu
[08:52] <SquishyWaffle> it does work and it gets the job done but man the battery sucks
[08:54] <jjesse> you're telling me, though i've never gotten supsed to disk working correctly, i blame having mysql server isntalled
[08:54] <SquishyWaffle> jjesse: are you running KDE or Gnome?
[08:54] <jjesse> started w/ gnome and then apt-get installed kde
[08:54] <jjesse> i just prefer how kde looks then w/ gnome
[08:55] <SquishyWaffle> have you got your Function keys working for volume?
[08:58] <jjesse> nope never looked into it
[09:00] <SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure how to go about it, had it working under Ubuntu because there's something that's included that allows for it
[09:01] <jjesse> is the fn key even mapped to anything?  i don't know how windows uses it
[09:01] <SquishyWaffle> no, but it doesn't appear to pick it up in the KDE key mapper
[09:08] <jjesse> nod i tried that as well
[10:27] <SquishyWaffle> so does Mark Shuttleworth frequent meetings and/or the forums?
[10:28] <mdke> dunno about forums
[10:28] <mdke> he is the boss, so he goes to meetings
[10:28] <mpt> SquishyWaffle: Not at the moment, but he's said he'll be concentrating on that more in the second half of the year
[10:28] <SquishyWaffle> what name does he go under when he is around?
[10:28] <mpt> on the community side of things, I mean
[10:29] <mdke> he is the head of the Community Council
[10:29] <mpt> SquishyWaffle: sabdfl
[10:29] <mpt> Ten points if you guess what it stands for
[10:29] <SquishyWaffle> ahh, I saw him on the meeting last night
[10:29] <SquishyWaffle> Some Awful Bears Dig for Lunch? :)
[10:29] <SquishyWaffle> south african something
[10:30] <mpt> I guessed South African something too, but no
[10:30] <mpt> Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life.
[10:30] <SquishyWaffle> I was right with the bears!
[10:30] <mdke> not a clue
[10:30] <SquishyWaffle> ahh, heh
[10:31] <mpt> (Google: "Did you mean: _asdfl_" ... Yeah, sure, like "asdfl" is a real word)
[10:34] <Burgundavia> mdke, he is head of a little more than the CC
[10:36] <mdke> Burgundavia, well the question was about meetings
[10:36] <Burgundavia> true
[10:36] <mdke> and community
[10:36] <mdke> [21:28:39]  mdke he is the boss
[10:36] <Burgundavia> oh, didn't read far enough up
[11:07] <thesaltydog>  is there any goodwill mate who can spend 10 min. on this page and edit/review contents? http://www.ubuntu.com/wiki/InitScriptHumanDescriptions
[11:16] <Burgundavia> thesaltydog, looking
[11:17] <Burgundavia> I see inconsistent wording
[11:23] <mdke> i'll have a look too
[11:23] <mdke> Burgundavia, are you editing that page now?
[11:24] <Burgundavia> nope
[11:24] <mdke> ok cool
[11:24] <Burgundavia> looking currently
[11:25] <mdke> ok i'll have a go later then
[11:42] <mdke> hi salty
[11:44] <mdke> thesaltydog
[11:45] <thesaltydog> matt, sorry
[11:45] <thesaltydog> I was elsewhere
[11:45] <mdke> no problem
[11:46] <mdke> how are ya
[11:46] <thesaltydog> trying to get that damn list, as I am in the need to release, due to a small bug
[11:47] <thesaltydog> a couple of guys has edited.
[11:47] <mdke> ok
[11:47] <mdke> i'm working on it now
[11:47] <thesaltydog> what I would recommend is this:
[11:47] <thesaltydog> we need to use "common" language.
[11:47] <thesaltydog> i.e.
[11:47] <thesaltydog> for xorg-common I have put " Main Graphical Interface"
[11:48] <mdke> sure
[11:48] <thesaltydog> maybe it is not good, can be changed, but: "X-Windows System X.Org" (as it has been edited) has no sense
[11:48] <mdke> fine
[11:48] <mdke> i'm trying to make it user friendly
[11:48] <thesaltydog> so I have to change again
[11:49] <thesaltydog> is you are on the list, please change X.Org description to something simpler
[11:49] <mdke> ok i will
[11:49] <mdke> i haven't got there yet ;)
[11:49] <mdke> but surely that is not an init script?
[11:49] <thesaltydog> waddaya mean??
[11:51] <mdke> xorg-common is not an init script right?
[11:52] <thesaltydog> yes, it is..
[11:52] <thesaltydog> it runs on system runlevel, rcS.d
[11:52] <thesaltydog> the 3rd tabbed view in BUM
[11:53] <mdke> hmm
[11:53] <mdke> strange
[11:53] <mdke> also sudo?
[11:53] <thesaltydog> why?
[11:53] <thesaltydog> yes also sudo
[11:54] <thesaltydog> the init script "sudo" is a one-shot script that prepares to the use of sudo..
[11:54] <mdke> ok
[11:55] <mdke> right i've made some alterations
[11:55] <thesaltydog> very good
[11:55] <mdke> thesaltydog, couple of questions
[11:55] <mdke> 1. is it useful do you think to explain the difference between acpid and apmd?
[11:56] <Burgundavia> mdke, where do I announce a new application in rosetta?
[11:56] <mdke> 2. would it be a good idea to mark some services (e.g. dbus) as "important"
[11:56] <mdke> Burgundavia, announce, or insert?
[11:56] <Burgundavia> announce
[11:56] <mdke> rosetta-users?
[11:56] <thesaltydog> 1 - yes
[11:56] <Burgundavia> I have worked with someone to get their app into rosetta
[11:56] <thesaltydog> 2 -no. I could take care of this from the program...
[11:56] <Burgundavia> and now we need to blow his socks off by getting a massive amount of translations for it
[11:57] <mdke> Burgundavia, ok cool, rosetta-users and ubuntu-translators then
[11:57] <mdke> thesaltydog, ok fair enough
[11:58] <mdke> thesaltydog, i've resaved now
[11:59] <mdke> thesaltydog, the other thing I was thinking, do you think it is necessary to rephrase things like "server", or do most people understand that?
[11:59] <thesaltydog> mdke, I was looking at your mods. Very good thanks.
[11:59] <thesaltydog> Only one question:
[12:00] <thesaltydog> "Updates your details at DynDNS.org" which details??
[12:00] <mdke> yeah i wasn't sure about that, but i didn't like "dynamic ip address"
[12:00] <mdke> i thought it was too technical
[12:01] <Burgundavia> mdke, are you signed up to those lists?
[12:01] <thesaltydog> you're right, but somenone could understand "distinguishing marks"?? :-)
[12:01] <mdke> Burgundavia, yeah
[12:01] <Burgundavia> would you mind announcing this app?
[12:01] <mdke> no
[12:01] <Burgundavia> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/gepolabo/+translations
[12:01] <mdke> ok :)
[12:01] <mdke> if you want to gimme a spiel about it, i'll include that
[12:02] <mdke> thesaltydog, i don't like distinguishing marks either :(


[00:31] <hallyn> hm, are there any livecd images yet of lunar?
[00:32] <hallyn> oh, cdimage.ubuntu.com, not cdimages ?  sorry for the noise
[00:33] <hallyn> oh, hm, no.  that's only for 'ubuntu-base'
[00:33] <arraybolt3_> hallyn: I do not believe there are Lunar images yet, they've been having some trouble getting some of those to build, IIRC.
[00:34] <hallyn> oh, drat.  ok thanks.
[00:34] <arraybolt3_> Oh wait, I'm wrong.
[00:34] <arraybolt3_> I think.
[00:35] <arraybolt3_> Hmm, nope, can't find them still.
[01:37] <feurig> Q:nwhy does ubuntu-server stink so bad at name resolution.
[01:37] <feurig> A: because you dint pay for the a/d integration....
[01:39] <ravage> that makes no sense at all
[01:42] <feurig> thats what I said. At work where we at my suggestion are trying to use ubuntu-server as our primary infrastructure os.
[01:43] <feurig> After the change we made to make ubuntu resolv local dns broke everything else thats been working for the last 10 years.
[01:44] <feurig> and between netplan and resolvd I gotta say #thekidsarenotalright
[01:45] <feurig> And its frankly not as bad as it was a decade ago with Netplan vs sane infrastructure so I am just here bar bitching.
[01:47] <feurig> --the stranglers #lookitupontheinternet
[01:50] <feurig> after a collective man day of looking at fixing it using our a/d we realized the much touted integration was a pay service.
[01:50] <feurig> ravage: that make more sense?
[01:52] <feurig> PS. Love it, use it, promote it, just want it to work.
[01:53] <feurig> er with s/Netplan/NetworkManager/ #itjustsucksdifferent
[18:26] <ahasenack> I do have strange dns problems every now and then, and find myself running `sudo resolvectl flush-caches` way too often for my taste :/
[18:26] <ahasenack> client-side DNS used to be waaaay simpler...
[19:45] <Phibs> Friends don't let friends use resolved
[19:45] <Phibs> Anyone know how this is generated and how I can regenerate it myself since it's old? https://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/info/kernel-version-map.html
[19:48] <tomreyn> it refers to "jammy" and "5.15", are you sure it's old?
[19:48] <tomreyn> last modified 2022-11-18
[19:49] <Phibs> missing a bunch of 5.15 revs
[19:50] <Phibs> like 5.15.0-53
[19:50] <tomreyn> i assume it gets copied there from https://people.canonical.com/~kernel/info/ via cronjob, and the origin stopped updating
[19:50] <Phibs> nod
[19:50] <Phibs> kernel's are people too!
[19:50] <tomreyn> might be something worth pointing out in #ubuntu-kernel
[19:51] <Phibs> ty
[19:51] <Phibs> triggers me the package metadata doesn't specify the vanilla kernel source version :)


[01:09] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur - we maintain the gnome-screensaver packaging in bzr btw (just for future reference)
[01:09] <chrisccoulson> i was just about to upload a new version and noticed the bzr branch was out of date ;)
[07:49] <and471> mvo:hi
[07:49] <mvo> hey and471!
[07:50] <mvo> and471: I merged a history file writing into apt - I'm sure you will like that :)
[07:50] <and471> mvo: yay!
[07:50] <mvo> and471: I will upload it today (doing some final tests, but should be fine)
[07:51] <and471> mvo: what is the basic format of the history?
[07:52] <mvo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/LucidSoftwareCenterHistory
[07:52] <mvo> and471: a simple rfc822 format, the python-debian package with the debian_bundle.deb822 parser should cope with it just fine
[07:53] <mvo> the only complication is that it will do log rotation and keep .gz copies of the chnages
[07:53] <mvo> and471: it would be cool to code the log viewer in a way that it could be used standalone as well (if that is possible with not too much effort)
[07:54] <and471> mvo: hmm interesting... :-)
[07:54] <mvo> :)
[07:54]  * mvo is pretty excited about the feature
[07:56] <and471> mvo: once it is uploaded tell me and I shall begin hacking :-) though I may need a demo of how the parsing with debian_bundle.deb822 works
[08:03] <and471> mvo: can I ask you a question?
[08:03] <mvo> sure
[08:04] <and471> mvo: I have a goocanvas.Canvas and some items on that canvas, how would I set up dragging and dropping of those items?
[08:04] <and471> mvo, (within the canvas) so not gtk. drag and drop stuff, but button release events etc.
[08:06] <mvo> and471: I have no experience with that, but I'm happy to have a look (it sounds fun!) - is the code in a branch somewhere?
[08:06] <and471> mvo: sure I shall just push it
[08:06] <mvo> and471: it means you have to implement d-n-d "by-hand" because its not there is GooCanvas yet?
[08:07] <and471> mvo: no I am trying to drag and drop items within goocanvas (ie. not drag them to another widget)
[08:08] <and471> mvo, it is for a flowchart creator I have starting creating :-) https://code.launchpad.net/~rugby471/shauri/trunk
[08:08] <mvo> oh, that sounds like you want to draw it every time on mousemove
[08:08] <and471> mvo: the canvas stuff is in shauri/view/canvas.py (you will notice the structure of the project looks similiar :-] )
[08:08] <mvo> and delete (and restore the bg) of the previous position
[08:08] <and471> mvo, yup
[08:08] <mvo> heh :)
[08:08] <mvo> nice
[08:10] <mvo> I guess its "just" that, keeping track on on-mouse, the old cursor position, the new and lots of drawing (and deleting).
[08:10] <mvo> I'm sure there are nasty corner cases and such too :)
[08:11] <and471> mvo: what is the gobject signal(s) I need to track?
[08:11] <and471> is > are
[08:13] <mvo> and471: I think you need motion-notify-event on the canvas itself. if there is a mouse-click on a item, go into drag-state, if the mouse is moved (motifion-notify-event) in that state, do the drawing magic. when the mouse is released, end that state
[08:14] <mvo> you should get a event that gives you "event.x", "event.y"
[08:14] <and471> mvo: ok cool thanks :-)
[08:14] <mvo> (GdkEventMotion)
[08:14] <mvo> good luck! and let me know how that goes
[08:15] <and471> mvo: thanks I shall :-) I was trying to make a flowchart the other day, I installed and opened up dia and thought "this is too hard" ;)
[08:15] <and471> mvo, this is going to be a really simple and easy-to-use program :-)
[08:16] <pitti> Good morning
[08:16] <mvo> and471: cool!
[08:16] <mvo> hey pitti
[08:16] <and471> pitti, hello
[08:31] <chrisccoulson> good morning everyone
[08:32] <pitti> hey chrisccoulson
[08:33] <chrisccoulson> hey pitti, how are you today?
[08:33] <chrisccoulson> are you winding down for the festive break yet? ;)
[08:34] <pitti> I'm great, how are you?
[08:34] <pitti> I'm still at work until tomorrow
[08:35] <and471> mvo: okay I have got it working however I have one problem, the gd.Event gives me the x and y coordinates of the window not the widget, is there anyway to convert these?
[08:35] <and471> *gkd.Event
[08:35] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'm ok too. i got most of my christmas grocery shopping done last night, which was not fun, but i'm glad it's out of the way now :)
[08:36] <and471> *gdk.Event
[08:39] <and471> mvo, don't worry I ahve go it working, the gdk.Event does give me the correct coordinates
[08:43] <mvo> and471: aha, cool
[08:45] <and471> mvo: yay it is working :-)
[08:45] <mvo> sweet!
[09:00] <chrisccoulson> pitti - do you just want me to just upload the fix for bug 428884 to karmic-proposed, or do you want to have a quick look at the fix beforehand? FYI, the patch i uploaded to lucid last night is http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/gnome-screensaver/ubuntu/revision/48#debian/patches/10_legacy_scrsvr_inhibit.patch
[09:00] <chrisccoulson> unfortunately, it requires an extra build-depend on libxtst-dev to work, but that's already required by other desktop components anyway
[09:02] <pitti> chrisccoulson: new b-dep in main doesn't sound like a problem
[09:02] <chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks
[09:02] <pitti> chrisccoulson: would there be a way to avoid patching autoconf stuff for the SRU?
[09:02] <pitti> and just assume that we have it?
[09:03] <pitti> the Makefile.am change can probably be represented as a single-line diff in Makefile.in
[09:03] <pitti> I don't insist on it, but it might make the change much smaller and less error prone
[09:04] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, i can probably do that. we'd still need to keep the Makefile change to correctly link against libxtst though, but i can remove the configure check for the SRU. i only added that to make it more acceptable for upstream
[10:04] <chrisccoulson> vuntz - we had a user report a gnome-session bug because they tried to get nautilus to open a window on login, by adding a nautilus autostart file in gnome-session-properties, but it didn't work because they ended up with 2 applications with the same app_id (and only one of them is started). would you consider that to be a bug, or something which is unlikely to change? (i'm wondering whether to close the launchpad bug or not)
[13:06] <huats> hello everyone !
[13:08] <mpt> mvo, hi, I thought you were supposed to be on holiday ;-)
[13:10] <mvo> mpt: yesterday, today and tomorrow I'm at work :)
[13:10] <mpt> mvo, ah, I didn't call you yesterday because I didn't see you online anywhere
[13:13] <mvo> mpt: right, I was on vac yesterday
[13:14] <mvo> but not today and tomorrow
[13:16] <mpt> mvo, I just updated trunk, and it's in an interesting state -- all the application names and icons are gone
[13:19] <mvo> mpt: oh? does "rm data/xapian/*" help?
[13:20] <mpt> oh, I wasn't paying attention to what was happening in the terminal
[13:21] <mpt> it was full of raise IndexError("No app '%s' for '%s' in database" % (appname,pkgname)) etc
[13:21] <mpt> yes, all fixed now
[13:22] <mvo> cool, thanks
[13:28] <chrisccoulson> good afternoon everyone
[13:37] <mpt> mvo, I'm thinking about how to show non-application packages in search results
[13:37] <mpt> mvo, and one example I'm using is "the" (The Hessling Editor)
[13:39] <mvo> mpt: we can/could force exact package name searches as part of the query
[13:39] <mvo> that would match "the"
[13:39] <mpt> yes
[13:40] <mpt> So, something like: If there's a package that exactly matches, show that first, then show all application matches alphabetically, and hide non-application matches behind a toggle of some sort
[13:40] <mpt> (other non-application matches, I mean)
[13:41] <mpt> ... except in "Tech Stuff", where non-application matches should be shown by default
[13:42] <mpt> Currently searching in USC for "hessling" returns the, but searching for "the" does not
[13:42] <mvo> mpt: I'm not sure about the alphabetic, I send you a environment that you can use to modify the behavior a while ago
[13:43] <mvo> mpt: and alphabetic is confusing if you search for something with "z" in it IMO
[13:43] <mpt> maybe
[13:43] <mvo> mpt: I thnk I send it to you by mail, just play with it to get a feeling for the sorting
[13:43] <mpt> Another problem with alphabetic is where we get wildly popular and ISVs start gaming it by starting their application names with underscores or "AAA"
[13:44] <mpt> (that happened with Apple's store)
[13:45] <mvo> oh, so that is the way the apple store is doing it by default? interessting
[13:45] <mpt> I think they stopped, I'm not sure
[13:45] <mpt> haven't used it myself :-)
[13:45] <mpt> http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2008/07/app-store-alphabetical-listings-quietly-fixed.ars
[13:46]  * mvo nods
[13:47] <mvo> mpt: we currently implement three different sortings, if you can't find the environemnt vars I can look them up for you again (sorry, I don't have it right now)
[13:55] <mpt> mvo, sorry, I haven't found that message (I went through all messages where you mentioned "sort")
[13:57] <mvo> mpt: try "PYTHONPATH=. SOFTWARE_CENTER_SEARCHES_SORT_MODE=popcon ./software-center"
[13:57] <mvo> mpt: it supports "xapian"
[13:57] <mvo> mpt: alphabetic
[13:57] <mvo> and popcon
[13:58] <mpt> hm, searching is hard
[14:00] <mpt> None of those options, when I search for "python", return any version of the Python interpreter as #1 or #2
[14:00] <mpt> I guess we can get around that partly with exact matches
[14:01] <mpt> but that might not help with searches like "openoffice"
[14:05] <mvo> yeah, search is hard, espcially when it neeeds be fast and exact. give me a minute to look if I can get the package name matches mixed into the search
[14:40] <mvo> mpt: please update and check how well the xapian mode now works. I added scaling for pkgname and a strong favor towards applications
[14:41] <mvo> r477
[14:43] <pitti> hm, any gnome committer here who could apply an approved patch for me?
[14:43] <mvo> but popcon (by its nature) gives us very good results for common searches
[14:43] <mvo> mpt: its hard to get the exact behavior you want, there is no simple "do-that search first and append the other results later"
[14:44] <pitti> mclasen: thanks for the glib assert patch review; I can't commit myself, but I'll find someone
[14:44] <mclasen> pitti: we'll get it in, no worries
[14:44] <mpt> mvo, one lookup and one search, splice the results together? :-)
[14:45] <mclasen> pitti: now I need to go and find some abrt hacker; I think they're all off for xmas already...
[14:45] <pitti> mclasen: that problem sounds familiar :)
[14:46] <pitti> OTOH these three days are great for getting stuff done and reduce the backlog
[14:46]  * pitti has $work inbox down to three
[14:47] <mvo> mpt: right, thats like saying "just return the right results"
[14:47] <mpt> mvo, why is that? Is it because it would take twice as long as doing just one search?
[14:51] <mvo> mpt: its because the bit that displays the application gets a query as input. it does not care much if its in search, display (sub)category or search-in-category(or sub-category) mode. its a nice abstraction. that bits needs to be redone to take multiple queries and stitch them together. maybe hard is the wrong word, but it does not map very well currently
[14:52] <mpt> mvo, is that something you'd need to rewrite anyway to hide non-application packages from most search results by default?
[14:52] <mvo> mpt: no, that is relatively easy to do by adding a "AND" or "AND_NOT" applications
[14:52] <mpt> ok
[14:55] <mpt> hm, something must be broken
[14:55] <mvo> mpt: with the recent commit?
[14:57] <mpt> mvo, in r477 I search for "thunderbird" and I get 200 results: Mozilla Thunderbird is #56, and most of the others don't mention "thunderbird" at all
[14:59] <mpt> mvo, http://paste.ubuntu.com/344756/
[15:00] <mvo> mpt: with SEACHES_SORT_MODE=xapian ? or with the default mode?
[15:01] <mpt> mvo, default mode
[15:01] <mvo> SOFTWARE_CENTER_ ... =xapian
[15:01] <mpt> Was that change you made just to the xapian mode?
[15:01] <mvo> mpt: that may well be broken now :/ please check the xapian one
[15:01] <mpt> ok
[15:05] <mpt> mvo, http://paste.ubuntu.com/344759/
[15:05] <mpt> It's improved on non-application packages, worsened on applications
[15:08] <mpt> It's also consistently returning ~200 results where most of them don't mention the search string at all
[15:10] <mvo> hm, hm, so a different approach is needed
[15:11] <mpt> actually, I need to increase the sample
[15:11] <mpt> it's doing fairly well on other things I'm trying
[15:11] <mpt> but getting rid of those completely irrelevant results would be nice anyway :-)
[15:15]  * mvo nods
[15:19] <mpt> mvo, http://paste.ubuntu.com/344765/
[15:22] <mpt> Emilia Pinball seems to come up in the top 20 for just about every search I do :-)
[15:22] <mpt> e.g. it's the #12 result for "spreadsheet"
[15:28] <mpt> mvo, so on balance, from that sample I think r477-xapian is a bit worse than r476
[15:46] <cassidy> kenvandine, hey! Any chance to see https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/telepathy-gabble/+bug/494591 fixed in Karmic?
[15:46] <mvo> mpt: hm, I just looked into a custom weight implementation to do custom relevance raking with xapian, but that seems to be not possible with the python bindings. I think it would solve the problem neatly. oh well
[15:46] <mvo> s/would/would have/
[16:18] <mvo> mpt: please try r478, still not perfect, but I think better
[16:34] <mpt> mvo, with explicit xapian mode, or default mode?
[16:36] <mvo> mpt: default, sorry for not mentioning that
[16:42] <mpt> mvo, http://paste.ubuntu.com/344818/
[16:42] <mpt> r479 does a bit better than r476
[16:43] <mpt> r479 in xapian mode does better still.
[16:43] <mvo> mpt: that is interessting, dive into python is a problem to become #1 because python is also a package name and huge popularity
[16:45] <mpt> And in both default and xapian mode, I don't see any completely irrelevant results, nice work
[16:45] <mvo> thanks
[16:46] <mpt> mvo, shouldn't it matter that the python package doesn't mention "dive" at all? :-)
[16:49] <mvo> mpt: the package names are currently a OR search, I can make that a AND, but that will be on the expenses of other queries. but if you prefer that that is fine with me (OTOH there is no dive AND in AND python package)
[16:50] <mpt> mvo, sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "there is no dive AND in AND python package"
[16:51] <mvo> mpt: I mean, for the package name query, there is no exact match there. but yeah, for the other one I need to check what is going on, but xapian is sometimes still magic
[16:52] <mpt> mvo, do you mean that with an AND search, "dive into python" would return no results?
[16:52] <mvo> mpt: for a AND package name search yes, it would be a "dive AND into AND python" on the pkgname
[16:53] <mpt> Well, the package name isn't "dive" or "into" or "python" anyway
[16:53] <mpt> So in both cases it's looking at the description instead, right?
[16:54] <mvo> yes
[16:54] <mvo> hm, but its a good question why its not doing a AND there
[16:54] <mpt> We're hampered here by the synopsis being "free Python book for experienced programmers", rather than "Dive Into Python, a reference for experienced programmers" or something like that
[16:55]  * mvo nods
[16:55] <mpt> Unlike Google and Bing developers, we have the advantage of being able to improve our dataset :-)
[16:55] <mvo> indeed
[16:56] <mvo> user-contributed-metadata ftw
[16:56] <mpt> exactly
[16:56] <mpt> In the meantime, the latest xapian mode looks like a good default to be going on with
[16:56] <mvo> ok, cool
[16:57] <mpt> though I'm happy to test something where the package search is ANDed
[16:57] <mpt> package name search, I mean
[16:59] <mvo> mpt: ok, cool. I need to leave now (appointment this evening) - but I can commit a patch for this tomorrow morning - just ping me when you are online and I'm happy to do that
[16:59] <mpt> mvo, ok, or put it in a branch and mail me, whichever suits you
[16:59] <mpt> thank you for your attention to detail
[17:00]  * mpt wonders what package should come up #1 in a search for "realtime kernel"
[17:00] <mpt> linux-image-rt, I guess
[17:01]  * mvo waves
[17:01] <mpt> tchau
[17:02] <mpt> But there we have crap data because the package info doesn't mention "realtime" at all
[17:02] <mpt> "This package will always depend on the latest rt kernel image available." </nothelpful>
[17:13] <crimsun> mpt: I'll patch that, thanks
[17:14] <mpt> crimsun, I'm part-way through writing it up, would you like me to hit the "Submit Bug Report" button, or would that be more bothersome than useful?
[17:14] <crimsun> submit, and please let me know the bug report #
[17:15] <crimsun> thanks
[17:17] <mpt> crimsun, reported bug 499524, thank you kindly
[17:18] <mpt> crimsun, btw, do you know why <https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+search?text=linux-image-rt> shows the linux-image-rt binary package coming from two different source packages for the same series? Are they for different architectures, or what?
[17:23] <crimsun> mpt: originally targeted to two different base kernels
[17:23] <crimsun> 2.6.31 and 2.6.32 bases
[17:25] <mpt> hm
[17:25] <mpt> When I search Synaptic for "linux-image-rt" I get one result, but when I search Ubuntu Software Center I get two identical results
[17:45] <crimsun> mpt: would it be acceptable to use "Realtime" instead of "real-time"?
[17:45] <crimsun> mpt: upstream uses the former
[17:46] <mpt> crimsun, heh, I was just wondering how to finagle the description so that it would contain both :-)
[17:46] <mpt> so that a search for either would return it
[17:47] <crimsun> well, technically it's "Realtime Linux" and "RT" both, but I agree that we need to avoid confusing users with other "rt"-like packages
[17:48] <bjsnider> is it acceptable for a package to wipe out a userland config file as part of an update, or is it considered to be destruction of data?
[17:48] <crimsun> i.e., we don't want people to mistakenly think they're getting "Real Time Linux" (i.e., RTAI)
[17:49] <mpt> crimsun, so are some/most of the mentions of "real-time kernel" on the Web people referring to RTAI?
[17:49] <crimsun> I'll just make this clearer in the longer description
[17:49] <mpt> http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1="real-time+kernel"&word2="realtime+kernel"
[17:49] <mpt> ok
[17:51] <crimsun> "real-time kernel" returns mostly "Realtime Linux" (i.e., Ubuntu's linux-meta-rt-related) results
[17:51] <crimsun> bjsnider: note the distinction between conffile and configuration file
[18:00] <bjsnider> crimsun, let me be specific. ~/.gnome2/backgrounds.xml
[18:01] <bjsnider> that file is created if the user ever changes anything about the default backgrounds such as their colour
[18:01] <bjsnider> it overrides the xml files in /usr/share/backgrounds
[20:37] <dobey> what's the installer project name? ubiquity?
[20:37] <Keybuk> the Live installer, yus
[20:39] <dobey> cool, thanks
[22:06] <chrisccoulson> pitti - i've uploaded the gnome-screensaver SRU now