[00:03] <cabrey> Hi, I'm switching from ubuntu-desktop to xubuntu-desktop, will pulseaudio be preserved or should I use this ( http://www.samlesher.com/ubuntu/install-pulseaudio-on-xubuntu-810-xfce ) guide?
[00:10] <SiDi> cabrey: my only advice is to get rid of pulseaudio
[00:10] <SiDi> xfce's mixer is not compatible, some other apps are not either
[00:10] <cabrey> well it works for me and works well :/ i mainly using it as an mpd server, but when i want a gui xfce will be there :)
[00:11] <SiDi> well, xfce4-mixer and the xfce mixer panel plugin wont work proerly with it :)
[00:11] <SiDi> the rest should be ok though
[00:11] <cabrey> yea i'm not worried about that, i'll just leave them at max and use the app's mixer
[01:56] <nicklas_> http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2110/skrmbildq.png
[02:56] <LOLSHARK>
[02:56] <LOLSHARK>
[02:56] <LOLSHARK>
[02:56] <LOLSHARK>
[02:56] <LOLSHARK>
[04:13] <sml1226> how do you add sound themes?
[04:17] <forces> sml1226, just paste into .sounds directory in your home directory
[04:17] <sml1226> hmm didn't work I tried that
[04:17] <forces> try in /usr/share/sounds
[04:17] <forces> as root
[04:20] <sml1226> in folder with theme name or where?
[04:23] <sml1226> so it would be /usr/share/sounds/theme
[06:22] <ubuntu> guys, i bought this computer today http://www.compusa.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=4553294&sku=S445-150034&SRCCODE=COMEM295MH&cm_mmc=EML-_-Main-_-COMEM295-_-special and i asked the salesguy if it was 32 bit or 64, and he said it was 32.  but it has a sticker on it 'amd athlon 64', so i don't know.  i'm using a 9.04 regular live cd in it right now (while i figure out...
[06:22] <ubuntu> ...how to get a windows refund for the (ACK) vista home basic that came with it), but anyways, my question is ... which version of buntu should i use with it?
[06:24] <forces> ubuntu, 32 bits could be
[06:25] <ubuntu> why does it say 64 on the sticker ... you sure?
[06:25] <forces> =.=
[06:25] <forces> that means your system can run both
[06:25] <forces> but you should use 32
[06:25] <forces> i386...
[06:26] <ubuntu> whats the reasoning then
[06:26] <forces> better support, there are more applications avaible for 32 bits than 64
[06:27] <ubuntu> and what makes this unit able  to run either?  i thought it was one or the other?
[06:27] <forces> =.=
[06:27] <forces> you make a lot of questions
[06:28] <forces> >.<!
[06:28] <ubuntu> thats why i'm here, to make questions
[06:28] <ubuntu> :P
[06:28] <forces> yes but my english is too bad and I dont understand all the questions
[06:29] <ubuntu> spanish?
[06:29] <forces> yes
[06:29] <ubuntu> yo hablo espanol
[06:29] <forces> LOL!
[06:29] <forces> porque no lo dijiste antes
[06:29] <ubuntu> pero aqui no
[06:29] <forces> entonces
[06:29] <forces> cual es tu pregunta
[06:29] <forces> aquí esta bien
[06:29] <ubuntu> nos van a correr
[06:29] <forces> nop
[06:29] <ubuntu> porque aqui es de ingles, veras
[06:30] <forces> yo ayudo en español aquí
[06:30] <ubuntu> vamos privado mejor
[06:30] <forces> la gente aquí es tranquila
[06:30] <forces> entonces #xubuntu-es
[06:30] <forces> entra ahí
[06:40] <ubuntu> ok, anybody ever have any luck getting an os refund from acer?  i'm running buntu live and not going to sign microsoft eula on this box/laptop
[06:40] <ubuntu> curious if anybody's tried (lately)
[07:01] <MTec007> hey guys, i had sound working in my last install, but i had to reinstall due to a couple really bad decisions on my part and I cannot remember how i got my sound working last time. double checked levels and mute in mixer and alsamixer.  lspci is 00:1e.2 Multimedia audio controller: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) AC'97 Audio Controller (rev 03)     everything seems to be setup right but no sound will play.
[07:39] <nikolam> hi.
[07:40] <nikolam> I have a problem, my notebook with xubuntu is freezing randomly once a day
[07:40] <nikolam> i run 32 bit xubuntu hardy
[07:40] <nikolam> How can I diagnose the problem?
[07:41] <nikolam> whole screen gets locked and keyboard and does not respond co ctrl alt Fn
[07:41] <nikolam> neather to strl ald delete or backspace
[07:42] <nikolam> is there a way I can look inside some log or something etc.. ?
[07:45] <Kasm279> 2 things: the touchpad on my laptop isnt working, and the video is alwats at 1280x1024 when i start up
[07:46] <nikolam> Kasm279, try to sarch ubuntuforums.org on your laptop, etc
[07:47] <nikolam> Kasm279, and report bug describing problem on launchpad.net
[07:47] <nikolam> what is the modem of nbook, anyway?
[07:51] <Kasm279> nikolam: what did i miss?
[07:51] <Kasm279> my computer locked up
[07:52]  * Kasm279 pokes nikolam
[07:52] <nikolam> hi
[07:52] <Kasm279> its an Averatec 3725-EH1
[07:52] <nikolam> Kasm279, what version of xubuntu u are installing?
[07:52] <Kasm279> err
[07:52] <Kasm279> 3700
[07:52] <Kasm279> its installed
[07:52] <Kasm279> 9.04
[07:53] <Kasm279> but if i boot into something with kernel 2.4 or 2.5, the touchpad works
[07:53] <nikolam> try LTS version if you don`t want bleeding edge
[07:53] <nikolam> older but table
[07:53] <nikolam> and you can report a bug
[07:54] <nikolam> Kasm279, then it is 9.04 kernel problem or something
[07:54] <Kasm279> kernel
[07:55] <nikolam> it is possible that it would be solved as problem on next kernel update if you report it
[07:55] <Kasm279> i can get it to work with 8.10, but 8.10 locks up alot on this
[07:55] <Kasm279> k
[07:55] <Kasm279> i will report it
[07:55] <nikolam> yes, i personally stick ith lts 8.04,
[07:55] <Kasm279> any idea of how to it?
[07:55] <Kasm279> fix it*
[07:55] <Kasm279> fail>.>
[07:56] <Kasm279> or the screen resolution problem?
[07:56] <nikolam> also you can search or ask on ubuntuforums.org on your notebook type and on google for solving problem for now
[07:57] <Kasm279> i googled
[07:57] <Kasm279> nothing
[08:00] <nikolam> i personally first time heard about averatec brand.
[08:00] <nikolam> try hooking up with other users of same nbook
[08:00] <Kasm279> i have
[08:01] <Kasm279> its a 5 year old laptop
[08:01] <Kasm279> all the stuff on it is archived
[08:01] <nikolam> try liveCD with 8.04 LTS and see if it works there
[08:02] <Kasm279> thats how i know it works
[08:02] <Kasm279> BUT
[08:02] <nikolam> hah :)
[08:02] <Kasm279> the liveCD freezes brfore the desktop loads
[08:03] <Kasm279> ._.;
[08:04] <nikolam> what can i say, report all that bugs
[08:04] <nikolam> pronto
[08:04] <Kasm279> Xfce looks awsome with compositioning ob
[08:05] <Kasm279> on*
[08:06] <nikolam> i personally use compositing very rarely, or never
[08:06] <Kasm279> hm
[08:06] <nikolam> but it is nice on faster graphics than mine
[08:06] <Kasm279> well, with a 1.8GHz and 512MB RAM
[08:06] <Kasm279> :)
[08:06] <nikolam> what graphics there
[08:07] <Kasm279> nikolam: uhhh
[08:07] <Kasm279> i dont know
[08:07] <Kasm279> i think its Via
[08:07] <Kasm279> i know it steals RAM from the system
[08:07] <nikolam> Kasm279, hah, did you alo tried tha averatec tech support?
[08:08] <Kasm279> no
[08:08] <Kasm279> they wont support linux :x
[08:09] <nikolam> Kasm279, then don`t buy from such kind of companies..
[08:09] <Kasm279> i didnt
[08:09] <nikolam> also post an article/description of averatec mail response on forums
[08:09] <Kasm279> the laptop was given to me because it was dropped and in peices
[08:09] <nikolam> make their shame public
[08:12] <Kasm279> nikolam: however, the 12" laptop from linuxcertified.com is (i think) an averatec 2700
[08:13] <nikolam> Kasm279, if you post article on ubuntuforums with mail from support refusing to suport linux, i will be happy to update averatec wikipedia article about that
[08:13] <Kasm279> lmao
[08:13] <Kasm279> i dont think i will get anything
[08:14] <Kasm279> i asked for the max RAM 2 months ago
[08:14] <Kasm279> (which i found out is a huge 2GB :P)
[08:15] <nikolam> Kasm279, lets go to #xubuntu-offtopic
[08:15] <Kasm279> k
[08:58] <aacosta> how can i get wireless working on my eeepc
[08:59] <aacosta> jaunty
[09:56] <handjob> Hi all. I've got this small problem : I woke up today and found that there is no sound whatsoever. Maybe this can be helpful to determinate cause -> http://pastebin.ca/1472244
[10:40] <homebrewcider> can I upgrade from 8.04 to 8.10 by cd, or do I have to do it via downliading from the net? If I have the choice, which is better?
[11:11] <handjob> Nobody home? I thought i am using 'popular' distro!@ : p
[11:14] <kbmaniac> Hi all, changed a box from kubuntu to xubuntu, all good except its running kdm, so logout drops me to the command line, any idea how to change ?
[11:15] <SiDi> kbmaniac: heya
[11:15] <SiDi> http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/ubuntu/how-to-switch-between-gdm-and-kdm-on-ubuntu/
[11:16] <SiDi> Does this work for you ?
[11:16] <kbmaniac> taking a look ..
[11:17] <kbmaniac> trying it out ...
[11:17] <SiDi> (if you wanna switch to gdm, of course. If you wanna keep kdm i'm not sure exactly how to make xfce happy with it. But i know slim works ok with xfce, and gdm too)
[11:19] <kbmaniac> that works for me :)
[11:19] <kbmaniac> Many thanks from KDE4 refugee
[11:20] <SiDi> kbmaniac: happy to help
[11:23] <kbmaniac> While I have a xubuntu guru on line, one other question. This box is for my wife, she gets confused with logout, hibernate etc etc she just wants 'shut down', turning off 'prompt on logout' just gives me logout, any ideas ?
[11:42] <kbmaniac> Ah found something http://support.zenwalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21764&start=0&sid=11d377817a866918905ffa535acbba8e&view=print
[11:51] <SiDi> kbmaniac: i actually dont know, but i think there is an option to remove hibernate/suspend :/
[11:52] <kbmaniac> Yup, no probs, found a link to do that. I am hopefully getting towards the end of a large open source project, then I will have time to tinker / code on xfce :)
[11:54] <SiDi> hm interesting :p
[11:55] <SiDi> What would you want to work on ?
[11:56] <kbmaniac> Apparently xfce is in need of a menu editor ?
[11:57] <kbmaniac> And because I am never quite satisfied with any icon set, I always want to change at least one, a icon set editor
[11:57] <SiDi> the menu editor is being worked on by the developer of alacarte, officially
[11:57] <kbmaniac> OK cross that one off ... lol
[11:59] <kbmaniac> I got about 2 months worth of work to finish http://www.kmotion.eu/mediawiki/index.php/Screenshots_v2 then I am a free agent looking for a project
[12:07] <SiDi> should i prepair my exams or should i play FF XII ? hmm..
[12:17] <kbmaniac> You should do a fair split, say 95% FF XII, 5% revision ...
[12:31] <SiDi> kbmaniac: i totally agree. i'll begin with the biggest part then : ff !
[12:33] <kbmaniac> Thats my kind of revision :) - got to go, bye
[12:37] <SiDi> bye kbmaniac
[13:20] <firsm> Hey, when I log out and back in again, the xfce panels on my two monitors do weird stuff like adding another xfce menu, removing applets randomly or removing/adding a duplicate places plugin to the panel. Any idea why that happens?
[13:28] <knome> try to removing ~/.cache/xfce4
[13:28] <knome> -to
[14:20] <seejay> hi all!
[14:21] <seejay> xubuntu does not store any history details on my machine :(
[14:21] <seejay> no history in terminal
[14:23] <handjob> It's wierd. When i type 'lsusb' i see my pendrive when i enter 'sudo blkid' i don't see it and i can't use device. Any solutions?
[14:23] <genii> seejay: Make sure the user owns ~/.bash_history and that it's permissions are 600
[14:27] <seejay> genii, thanks i'll check for that
[14:28] <seejay> genii, oh man! root owns it! :-o what was i thinking
[14:28] <seejay> heehee
[14:29] <seejay> genii, maybe i was drunk and logged in as root :-S
[14:30] <handjob> Will 9.04 instaler format partition i will mark as 'home' or will it just add it to the 'fstab'?
[14:31] <seejay> genii, done! :) thanks a lot man!
[14:31] <SiDi> seejay: make sure you own all your files in .config too :D
[14:32] <SiDi> ls -lR .config | grep root
[14:33] <seejay> SiDi, i just checked.   I will try with the drivers. Thnaks
[15:10] <hatake_kakashi> anyone know how to get that mixer icon from ibex onto jaunty? the older one looked like one of those vertical bars with green "levelling" colour.. now that I'm on jaunty, the icon has been replaced with a dial type which doesn't really show you well how high is the volume
[15:21] <SiDi> hatake_kakashi: it tells you actually, if the volume is at 100% you'll see blue lines on it, representing the volume
[15:21] <hatake_kakashi> SiDi, oh well I fail then :) I have dark theme and transparency so I can't see it well compared to what it was :)
[15:33] <SiDi> hatake_kakashi: when you test karmic, have a look at https://launchpad.net/xfce4-volumed
[15:33] <SiDi> (we didnt package it yet tho)
[15:40] <smellynoser> Does ubuntu have USB power saving lark by default?
[16:34] <tuna-fish> hi. I'm having a weird problem with xubuntu. Every time I restart this machine, when the desktop loads, it loads one extra instance of xfdesktop. Right now, ps aux | grep xfdesktop | wc -l returns 18.
[16:35] <tuna-fish> Where is the profile stored so I can go nuke it?
[16:37] <knome> try removing ~/.cache/xfce4
[16:52] <handjob> Hi. How can i put 90.4 on thumb drive? Using CD is not an option.
[16:53] <ron_o> handjob, they have an application that can install linux to a thumb drive. Check the internet. I forget what it is called.
[16:54] <ron_o> any program that can make the thumbdrive bootable can work. For the easiest method, I hear that Windows burner (Nero?) can do it automatically, if you have that option of using Windows.
[16:56] <ron_o> and don't forget that in the BIOS to make your thumb drive bootable too.
[17:03] <handjob> Well i do not have windows and if you are thinking about 'unetbootin' sadly i can't find it for 8.04 .; (
[17:04] <charlie-tca> !install
[17:04] <charlie-tca> Works for jaunty, too
[17:05] <ron_o> handjob, it's in 9.04..
[17:06] <ron_o> if you have a fast enough computer you could install virtualbox and install xubuntu-9.04.. :/  I kind of figure you don't considering your situation.
[17:07] <handjob> Thanks for ideas.
[17:10] <ron_o> I'm not sure, but you might find help here: https://launchpad.net/~gezakovacs/+archive/ppa
[17:11] <ron_o> and don't forget about just installing it with source code. A pain, I know, but can still work very well.
[17:18] <handjob> Thank you again.
[17:18] <ron_o> handjob, http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/unetbootin
[17:18] <ron_o> try that.... I was there already looking up emelfm. :)
[17:19] <ron_o> and as long as you have a deb file, your package manager should handle much of the problems associated with dependencies and such.
[17:19] <ron_o> but you may have to reinstall after an upgrade. YMMV.
[17:20] <ron_o> update*
[17:26] <handjob> Maybe you could help me with different problem : i don't have sound. I woke up turned pc on and the pc was mute. This may be helpful http://pastebin.ca/1472782.
[17:26] <ron_o> I guess the old emelfm is being totally discontinued. I hate the new one. And I dare say it's worth the hassle of installing it and the attendant dependencies. What a pain.
[17:27] <SiDi> handjob: this may seem stupid, but did you check if the headset/speaker was plugged, did you check no track was muted on the mixer?
[17:27] <SiDi> Also, run ps aux | grep pulse and tell me if it runs please
[17:28] <ron_o> run apley <song> and see what you get.  As for alsamixer i am not pretty sure what should and what should not be turned on yet yesterday it was working so can it change by itself? handjob   7346  0.0  0.1   3004   764 pts/0    S+   18:29   0:00 grep pulse
[17:33] <handjob> .handjob@ubuntu:~/audio/lmms/samples$ aplay ./Lere\ Gymnopedie\ -\ Mari\ Tsuda\ \[Piano\].mp3
[17:33] <handjob> Playing raw data './Lere Gymnopedie - Mari Tsuda [Piano].mp3' : Unsigned 8 bit, Rate 8000 Hz, Mono
[17:33] <handjob> ^[
[17:33] <handjob> It was so loud that i am half deaf right now yet it was not a music just noise
[17:43] <handjob> Ok nevermind - the unetbootin worked so i guess i will make clean install. One more question : will instalation proces erase data from 'home' partition?
[17:46] <ron_o> when you install unetbootin, will it erase data?
[18:05] <aacosta> for some reason xubuntu 9.04 the wireless doesnt work
[18:05] <aacosta> on my eeepc
[18:06] <knome> aacosta, has it worked on earlier xubuntu versions?
[18:08] <aacosta> this is the first time i use xubuntu
[18:08] <aacosta> it worked with the eeebuntu
[18:08] <aacosta> but fuck i didnt want to  use that i wanted to give xubuntu a try
[18:08] <aacosta> the xfce
[18:09] <aacosta> ad i whiped out my windows
[18:09] <knome> okay, look at http://array.org/ubuntu/ then
[18:09] <knome> !language
[18:09] <aacosta> sorry
[18:09] <knome> adding the repositories and installing the custom kernel will bring you all the functionality
[18:09] <aacosta> ok illl thanks for the link
[18:09] <knome> the eeebuntu uses the same repositories
[18:10] <aacosta> oh sweeet
[18:10] <aacosta> that looks like exactly what i was looking for
[18:10] <handjob> ron_o: Well no i was refering to xubuntu instalation. If i mark my old home partition for new home partition will the data be erased?
[18:11] <knome> handjob, there should be an option whether to format that partition or not
[18:11] <handjob> Thank you.
[18:11] <handjob> Bye
[18:13] <SiDi> aacosta: eeebuntu includes the drivers for your eee
[18:13] <SiDi> we dont
[18:13] <SiDi> very likely its some bad proprietary drivers with ndiswrapper
[18:13] <aacosta> im not on eeebuntu im on xubuntu
[18:14] <aacosta> ok im on the website
[18:14] <aacosta> i just download the the one that says jaunty
[18:15] <knome> SiDi, it has the array.org repository enabled.
[18:15] <knome> SiDi, they might be propietary, but you get the HW working easily.
[18:15] <aacosta> sorry im just kind confused
[18:16] <aacosta> fist time doing somthing like this
[18:16] <aacosta> oh  i found the instructions
[18:46] <aacosta> so after that it should work
[18:47] <aacosta> the wiresless
[18:47] <aacosta> with the array..org kernel
[18:48] <aacosta> yeah my wireless stil down
[18:49] <aacosta> ggrr ill try again when i get back
[19:46] <ToStItOs> Whats the support life for 8.10?
[19:48] <charlie-tca> 18 months
[19:48] <ToStItOs> then what? have to upgrade?
[19:48] <charlie-tca> ends 4th month of 2010
[19:48] <charlie-tca> yes
[19:49] <ToStItOs> wow that soon
[19:49] <charlie-tca> almost a year from now
[19:49] <charlie-tca> however, 9.04 is out already, too
[19:50] <ToStItOs> Charlie do you know what will be the next upgrade after 9.04
[19:50] <charlie-tca> sure, 9.10, which is karmic koala
[19:50] <charlie-tca> It is alpha2 now
[19:50] <ToStItOs> when is that due out?
[19:51] <charlie-tca> October 2009
[19:51] <charlie-tca> versions are year, month
[19:51] <SiDi> 10th month of year 20.09
[19:51] <SiDi> 09.10
[19:51] <ToStItOs> so each version technically only has support for 18 months
[19:52] <SiDi> no
[19:52] <SiDi> only normal versions
[19:52] <SiDi> !lts
[19:52] <SiDi> we dont make things simple :p
[19:53] <ToStItOs> I guess upgrading has its plus and minuses
[19:54] <ToStItOs> So after 8.04 LTS what will be the next version for Long Term Support? 8.10
[19:54] <charlie-tca> It hasn't been decided yet
[19:54] <charlie-tca> It should be 10.04
[19:56] <ToStItOs> Since I don't have LTS version I should upgrade before the support for this one runs out
[19:56] <charlie-tca> yeah, that is a real good idea.
[19:57] <charlie-tca> You do have to upgrade version to next version, though. I wait sometimes, and upgrade through about 3 releases one right after the other.
[19:57] <ToStItOs> LTS versions versus Regular what are the disadvantages and advantages
[19:57] <charlie-tca> LTS does not get all the application updates. You only need to upgrade every three years
[19:57] <charlie-tca> It is more stable than Regular.
[19:58] <charlie-tca> Regular is released every 6 months
[19:58] <charlie-tca> It has the most current apps, but sometimes is unstable because of that
[19:58] <ToStItOs> So LTS is somewhat of a best bet?
[20:00] <charlie-tca> I run LTS on my file server, but test the alphas and betas on this machine I use daily
[20:00] <charlie-tca> I have karmic on here.
[20:00] <charlie-tca> I upgrade this one every 6 months
[20:01] <charlie-tca> I will upgrade my LTS in 2011, when 8.04 is end of support for home desktops
[20:01] <charlie-tca> This one I take a chance on breaking regularly
[20:02] <charlie-tca> The LTS I know will not be broken. It just keeps working, but some of the applications will be quite old when I upgrade it.
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Example: Xfce 4.6.1 on Karmic, Xfce 4.4.2 on 8.04. Abiword 2.4 on LTS, 2.6 on here
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Things fixed in the later versions are still broken in 8.04
[20:05] <ToStItOs> So would it be wise to upgrade every so often although of stability issue
[20:05] <charlie-tca> No fighting with the hardware that works in 8.04 until I upgrade it. Sometimes the latest version won't work with my old hardware
[20:05] <charlie-tca> If what you use needs to be current, use the Regular releases. If you hate to upgrade, use LTS
[20:06] <ToStItOs> I may use the regular I'll see or just oder a live cd
[20:07] <ToStItOs> *order
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu doesn't have shipit service. You download it yourself from http://xubuntu.org/get
[20:07] <ToStItOs> With the regular versions you most likely have to upgrade your computer
[20:08] <ToStItOs> I know I migrated from Ubuntu
[20:09] <nikolam> hi
[20:09] <charlie-tca> yeah, except when there is major changes. Karmic (9.10) is going to use ext4 filesystems by default and also has Grub2 now
[20:09] <charlie-tca> hi, nikolam
[20:10] <charlie-tca> At some point you may want to reinstall fresh to get those things
[20:10] <Salix_> Hello. Is there a way in 9.04 to put the switch user button onto the logout panel. To have it as a option beside hibernate/logout,shutdown/etc. as it was in 8.04?
[20:13] <charlie-tca> No, with the conversion to Xfce 4.6, too much changed
[20:13] <charlie-tca> You can move it next to the quit button on your panel, though
[20:16] <nikolam> hi charlie-tca :) I have a present :)
[20:16] <charlie-tca> what is it?
[20:16] <nikolam> I came back from 25 days trip, etc.. and   see fr yourself: :)
[20:16] <nikolam>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
[20:16] <nikolam> 12506 nikola    20   0 4225m 901m  11m S    0 47.8 232:40.75 xfce4-menu-plug
[20:17] <nikolam> :D
[20:17] <charlie-tca> Looks like it got fixed ;-)
[20:32] <handjob> Hi how can i determinate what sound card (i have 2 on board) is in use?
[20:40] <SiDi> handjob: the mixer
[20:40] <SiDi> xfce4-mixer
[20:43] <Salix_> If I switch from user A to user B then the hotkeys (set by user B) do not work in the new session. Has anyone similar problem? What to check/set?
[20:43] <nikolam> charlie-tca, 4Gigs swap 1Gig RAm, hmm, that is about that for displaying menus :)
[20:43] <handjob> Thanks. Thats strange i don't have sound even after installing new os still i am positive that speakers work.
[20:44] <charlie-tca> It didn't eat up all the memory! Must be enough :-)
[20:45] <handjob> Ok i am fine (alsamixer)/
[20:46] <SiDi> Salix_: check user B has xfce4-settings-helper on autostart
[20:47] <nikolam> charlie-tca, :D
[20:48] <charlie-tca> SiDi: won't they be running already under user A if using the user switcher applet?
[20:48] <charlie-tca> or maybe I have no idea, too
[20:51] <Salix_> SiDi: hm... that should be the problem... testing...
[20:54] <Salix_> SiDi: thank you. it seems to be working now.
[20:57] <SiDi> charlie-tca: i suppose user switch launches a proper session for the new user ?
[21:07] <charlie-tca> I don't know, I thought maybe it wouldn't launch another session
[21:08] <charlie-tca> apparently, I should keep quiet and learn
[21:13] <ToStItOs> niko
[21:14] <ToStItOs> nikolam
[21:15] <ToStItOs> nikolam be back later
[21:20] <SiDi> that was weird
[21:21] <SiDi> charlie-tca: you know i'm not sure of what i say either, 90% of the time :D
[21:26] <charlie-tca> SiDi: your 10% and my little bit makes us a good pair to help people
[21:27] <SiDi> charlie-tca: indeed
[21:27] <SiDi> the fact that we often succeed means we're sort of wise, though
[21:28] <charlie-tca> :-)
[21:28] <charlie-tca> It takes a wise person to admit they do not know it all ;-)
[21:47] <TheParoxysm> Hey there.
[21:48] <TheParoxysm> Is there anyone currently alive?
[21:50] <TheParoxysm> Hey.
[21:50] <TheParoxysm> I'm sorry to persist.  But I have a question if someone has a moment.
[21:51] <Slonkie> !question | TheParoxysm
[21:51] <SiDi> We're unfortunately zombies, TheParoxysm
[21:51] <SiDi> but most of us still have enough fingers for typing on keyboards.
[21:51] <charlie-tca> yeah, I was thinking everybody in here is dead, too
[21:52] <SiDi> TheParoxysm: feel free to ask your question.
[21:52]  * SiDi goes back to his grave and takes some brain out of the fridge.
[21:52] <SiDi> charlie-tca: want some ?
[21:52] <charlie-tca> definitely, thanks
[21:53]  * SiDi gives half the brain to charlie-tca and then chomps into his brain part.
[21:53]  * charlie-tca needs to go out and get some more. Seem to be out.
[21:53]  * SiDi hopes we didn't shock TheParoxysm too much :|
[21:54]  * charlie-tca really thanks SiDi. Got to eat now
[21:54] <SiDi> charlie-tca: you're welcome :D
[21:55]  * charlie-tca thinks the anser to TheParoxysm's question is "maybe";)
[21:55] <SiDi> No. It's 42.
[21:55] <TheParoxysm> I'm sorry.
[21:55] <TheParoxysm> Hah, I wandered off for a moment to try to get Amarok.
[21:55] <SiDi> Hehe, don't be sorry for that.
[21:55] <TheParoxysm> I have an 03 Thinkpad, which I've just installed Xubuntu on.
[21:56] <SiDi> TheParoxysm: so what is it that we may help you with ? Apart from stealing your brain. *dribbles*
[21:56] <TheParoxysm> Previously I tried Ubuntu with Wubi, and loved it, so I have teeny tiny bit of experience.
[21:56] <TheParoxysm> So you may need to hold my hand a bit here, but the core problem is this.
[21:57] <TheParoxysm> I shot over to Youtube so I could put some music on while I configured, explored, etc on this fresh install.
[21:57] <TheParoxysm> But the videos are less than normal quality, and tend to hang in places graphics wise.
[21:57] <SiDi> Hm, interesting.
[21:57] <TheParoxysm> I have reinstalled and made sure to get the Flash plugin from the adobe site.
[21:57] <SiDi> Please go to Applications -> System -> hardware drivers
[21:57] <TheParoxysm> Alright.
[21:58] <SiDi> (and actually you should get Flash from us, we're more reliable than Adobe :D)
[21:58] <TheParoxysm> (Will do after then if you'll walk me through it.)
[21:58] <TheParoxysm> It says "No proprietary drivers are in use on this system."
[21:58] <SiDi> Okey
[21:58] <SiDi> Then you have an Intel graphics card ?
[21:59] <TheParoxysm> Correct!
[21:59] <SiDi> This is... annoying :P
[21:59] <SiDi> Because Intel *forgot* to release drivers for the latest graphical server (a thing called X.org)
[21:59] <TheParoxysm> Forgot, eh?
[21:59] <SiDi> I'm not sure if we have more experimental ones under hand that'd work.
[22:00] <SiDi> Yes, forgot.
[22:00] <TheParoxysm> I'm sure.
[22:00] <SiDi> I've heard it'd be mostly fixed in Ubuntu 9.10, because drivers landed in the meanwhile.
[22:00] <SiDi> But i don't have an Intel GPU on my one.
[22:01] <SiDi> Let me ask other people if they know about a solution
[22:01] <TheParoxysm> Thank you.
[22:02] <SiDi> Do you know the exact name of the card ?
[22:02] <SiDi> type lspci | grep VGA otherwise
[22:02] <TheParoxysm> Alright.
[22:03] <TheParoxysm> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82852/855GM Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01)
[22:03] <TheParoxysm> 00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation 82852/855GM Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01)
[22:04] <SiDi> Oops...
[22:04] <SiDi> again please :D
[22:04] <TheParoxysm> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82852/855GM Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01)
[22:04] <SiDi> !info xserver-xorg-video-intel jaunty
[22:04] <SiDi> !info xserver-xorg-video-intel karmic
[22:05] <TheParoxysm> I checked synaptic, and spotted a couple Intel Drivers, but thought better of installing them until I got some sort of confirmation of if they were correct for me or not.
[22:06] <SiDi> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1130582 your problem seems to be mostly the 4th
[22:07] <SiDi> The current drivers in Jaunty are not the latest ones. There are much better ones in the wild, but i want to make sure they'll work before telling you to install them :)
[22:07] <TheParoxysm> Alrighty then.
[22:08] <SiDi> Read that page with me by the way, i'll refer to it and guide you through it
[22:08] <SiDi> Since you don't use restricted drivers we'll go for the "Optimal" method
[22:08] <TheParoxysm> Alright.
[22:09] <TheParoxysm> Thank you again for your patience and assistance.
[22:09] <SiDi> More or less a stable version of whats in karmic's alpha2
[22:09] <SiDi> TheParoxysm: that's what we're here for ;)
[22:10] <SiDi> TheParoxysm: i let you begin part A of the guide, tell me if there is something you don't understand or you're not sure about
[22:12] <TheParoxysm> Hah, I think I've failed.  I've entered the first command into the terminal, it requested Admin Auth, and after inputting it, nothing happened.
[22:14] <SiDi> oh crap
[22:15] <SiDi> we don't have gedit in xubuntu :D
[22:15] <SiDi> replace gedit by mousepad ;)
[22:15] <TheParoxysm> Hah, sorry.  What do I put in it's place?
[22:15] <SiDi> gksudo mousepad /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[22:16] <SiDi> Make sure the "Device" section looks like the one on the guide
[22:16] <TheParoxysm> Oh! Lol, sorry.   I'm a bit slow...this lifetim.
[22:16] <SiDi> if there is another one, add a # to each line of the current one (this will make X.org ignore this part of the configuration part) and then add the forum's one below
[22:19] <TheParoxysm> Done with that, now I'm setting infront of Part B.
[22:21] <SiDi> Ok so gksudo mousepad /etc/apt/sources.list
[22:21] <SiDi> instead of gedit, for the first command
[22:21] <TheParoxysm> Yep.
[22:21] <TheParoxysm> I'm finishing with Part B now, Terminal's doing it's thing still.
[22:22] <SiDi> We're gonna add a source of software updates to your system. This source is maintained by Ubuntu members instead of Canonical, but it has more up-to-date drivers
[22:22] <TheParoxysm> Alright.
[22:23] <SiDi> Tell me when you're done
[22:24] <TheParoxysm> It's finished, but in the top right there's a gears symbol saying a package manager is working.
[22:25] <SiDi> You're on the dist-upgrade command ?
[22:25] <TheParoxysm> I've completed that.
[22:26] <TheParoxysm> I've completed what the guide says is for the Optimal settings.
[22:26] <SiDi> Grey symbol ?
[22:26] <SiDi> Normally it should disappear within seconds if the upgrade is finished
[22:26] <TheParoxysm> It's gone now.
[22:26] <SiDi> Okey, part C now
[22:26] <TheParoxysm> Alright.
[22:27] <SiDi> we're gonna add a recent kernel to your list of kernels.  It seems to have gone somewhere... (karmic)
[22:36] <SiDi> he takes too long to respawn
[22:37] <charlie-tca> yeah, hopefully, he knows how to boot the old kernel if needed
[22:37] <SiDi> charlie-tca: what do you mean by seen update manager ?
[22:37] <SiDi> i'm more worried about the xorg.conf changes
[22:37] <SiDi> the kernel  will just work
[22:37] <charlie-tca> the thing that does updates! you know, orange icon, Applications -> System -> Update Manager
[22:37] <charlie-tca> all gone
[22:38] <SiDi> hm
[22:38] <SiDi> update-manager in a console ? :D
[22:38] <charlie-tca> here yesterday, gone today
[22:38] <SiDi> they changed the behaviour btw, now instead of showing a proper icon
[22:38] <SiDi> it pops up without reason on a regular basis
[22:38] <charlie-tca> in Xubuntu?
[22:38] <SiDi> so you really can appreciate the intrusiveness of it
[22:38] <SiDi> in Ubuntu
[22:39] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu changed it in 9.04, but we did not
[22:39] <charlie-tca> I know, I confirmed the bug and then got laughed at by mpt
[22:41] <SiDi> he seems to be alone on his side though
[22:41] <SiDi> i commented on a bug report and got quite a lot of +1s
[22:41] <charlie-tca> But winning, since sabdfl backs him up
[22:41] <SiDi> sabdfl is wrong on this one then :|
[22:42] <charlie-tca> you think?
[22:42] <charlie-tca> lol
[22:42] <charlie-tca> I gave up telling them it won't work back in Jaunty
[22:43] <charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/332945
[22:43] <charlie-tca> I am the one that confirmed it, right after it was filed
[22:48] <SiDi> im gonna go bed
[22:48] <charlie-tca> good night
[22:48] <SiDi> thanks
[23:26] <homebrewcider> can I upggrade from 8.04 to 8.10 via the cd? if so, is this better than upgrading over the net?
[23:28] <charlie-tca> yes, using the alternate cd you can. Not better necessarily, since after the upgrade, you will have a couple hundred updates either way
[23:28] <homebrewcider> quicker though?
[23:28] <charlie-tca> I don't really know.
[23:29] <charlie-tca> I have never used the cd to upgrade. I do mine over the net
[23:30] <homebrewcider> ok thanks
[23:30] <zoredache> homebrewcider: do you have a livecd, or alternatecd?  you could use 'apt-cdrom' to add it as a source of packages
[23:46] <hagg> hi. is there a way in xubuntu9.04 to lock the screen after return from suspend? didnt find it in the settings
[23:49] <ron_o> hagg, there is. However, I forget how it's done. I can't use suspend at the moment.
[23:52] <ron_o> hagg, have you given suspend a try? I think it's automatic?
[23:53] <ron_o> here's a solution. But obviously it ain't automatic: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=967616
[23:53] <hagg> ya, i tried it a few times. wakes up in a second and i have full access to the desktop
[23:54] <hagg> ok, thx, i'll give it a tray
[23:54] <hagg> re<
[23:54] <hagg> try


[17:57] <smoser> rharper: i'm going to land https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/344768 based on your lgtm.
[17:57] <smoser> blackboxsw: ^
[18:08] <rharper> smoser: ok
[18:58] <blackboxsw> just put up an integration test fix for bionic https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/345256
[18:59] <blackboxsw> fixes a couple of things I ran into which testing -proposed for the SRU.
[19:57] <blackboxsw> hrm smoser/raharper, why would update-ca-certificates generate 3 symlinks in /etc/ssl/certs for a given user-data provided trusted certificate in xenial but only 1 in bionic? https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/b7DRPygpYr/
[19:57] <blackboxsw> s/1 in bionic/2 in bionic/
[19:57] <blackboxsw> same user-data trusted provided for xenial and bionic
[20:02]  * blackboxsw was thinking of changing the integration test tests/cloud_tests/testcases/modules/ca_cert.(yaml|py) to instead validate that there is a symlink /etc/ssl/cert/cloud-init-ca-certs.pem -> /usr/share/ca-certificates/cloud-init-ca-certs.crt and >= 1 other link pointing to /etc/ssl/cert/cloud-init-ca-certs.pem
[20:02] <blackboxsw> instead of just counting the number of files generated by update-ca-certs
[20:14] <smoser> wow.
[20:14] <smoser> hm..
[20:15]  * blackboxsw is reading man pages at the moment trying to figure out what/why
[20:18] <blackboxsw> and there is no diff in the cloud-init-ca-certs.crt file written on bionic vs xenial
[20:23] <blackboxsw> hrm reminds me of this maybe https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1077020
[20:24] <blackboxsw> I'm seeing a blank line in /etc/ca-certificates.conf right now on xenial and bionic
[20:24] <blackboxsw> will see if removing it affects anything
[20:25] <blackboxsw> removing the leading blank line in /etc/ca-certificates.conf has not affect on number of symlinks created in /etc/ssl/certs in bionic or xenial.
[20:34] <smoser> blackboxsw: if i had to guess its this
[20:34] <smoser>  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=895075
[20:36] <blackboxsw> The "openssl rehash" command creates half that many symlinks (one per
[20:36] <blackboxsw> certificate instead of two) because it uses only the newer hash.
[20:36] <blackboxsw> ahhh ok
[20:37] <smoser> git-ubuntu is awesome
[20:37] <blackboxsw> so not a bug, but intended behavior
[20:37] <blackboxsw> that is an excellent find
[20:37] <smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/DbrQGvMZCD/
[20:38] <blackboxsw> agreed, we should hire nacc :)
[20:38] <blackboxsw> #toosoon
[20:39] <blackboxsw> thanks for that smoser
[21:03] <paulmey> rharper: around?
[21:03] <rharper> paulmey: here
[21:03] <rharper> sorry, I was out last week
[21:03] <rharper> your branch needs a review ?
[21:03] <paulmey> no problem... yes please:   https://code.launchpad.net/~paul-meyer/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/344538
[21:04] <paulmey> thanks in advance
[23:30] <paulmey> Thanks rharper, I'll wait for you or smoser to respond to finalize those checks.


[00:22] <troy_s> mikemaccana: I did a revision that unioned the heads and such and shifted the hues.
[00:22] <troy_s> mikemaccana: Just check the wiki.  2nd revision.
[00:39] <Picklesworth> The heron in the re-remixed one (without red around throat) seems to have a very transparent looking heron
[00:40] <Picklesworth> yet I can't find what is making it this way because my Inkscape-fu is weak!
[00:40] <Picklesworth> has anyone tried a more opaque heron?
[00:40] <Picklesworth> Right now the background kind of swallows it
[01:06] <Picklesworth> Hm... is the selection of Emblems in Nautilus the art team's job?
[01:06] <Picklesworth> If so, I strongly suggest they be trimmed
[01:06] <Picklesworth> significantly
[01:06] <Picklesworth> especially the CVS ones should be removed, maybe packaged seperately
[01:08] <Picklesworth> HAH! It's raining in London!
[01:33] <Picklesworth> Hm... completely the wrong tab for that last line
[01:33] <Picklesworth> anyhow...
[01:34] <Picklesworth> eek, now I'm just rubbing it in! Err, emblems question :O
[02:21] <troy_s> Picklesworth: That was rather by design.
[02:21] <troy_s> Picklesworth: It was the easiest way to nerf the tonal range without getting into colour issues.
[02:22] <troy_s> Picklesworth: That said, it might be a little more strident.  Erring on the side of subtler at this state is rather important to get the sabdfl stamp of approval.
[02:30] <Picklesworth> ah, understood
[02:40] <troy_s> Picklesworth: The remix tries to address the various issues...
[02:41] <troy_s> Picklesworth: 1) Moved the red to different areas to try and avoid the direct blood connotation.
[02:41] <troy_s> Picklesworth: 2) Adjusted the tones such that the little people are more visible in the next (from remix2)
[02:42] <troy_s> Picklesworth: 3) Unioned the little people so that they don't have overlapping segments of heads (they were originally two shapes -- a circle and a body, now they are one)
[02:42] <troy_s> Minor twiddle to the tonal range of the background.
[06:35] <DanaG> Hmm, I still wonder why the wallpaper-slideshow thingy "can't be done".
[19:59] <oliver_g_> hello
[20:00] <oliver_g_> did you notice that menu entries with checkboxes in front (and some other cases as well) have a smaller height than normal entries?
[20:36] <kwwii> oliver_g_: report a bug if it is not already reported
[20:37] <oliver_g_> kwwii: on which package would that go? human-theme?
[20:57] <kwwii> oliver_g_: yeah, probably that or some general desktop thing
[21:17] <oliver_g_> kwwii: made new bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/human-theme/+bug/200336
[21:17] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 200336 in human-theme "menu entries with checkboxes are lower than normal entries" [Undecided,New]
[22:27] <troy_s> kwwii: ping?
[23:15] <kwwii> troy_s: pong but not for long
[23:15] <troy_s> kwwii: You still here?
[23:15] <kwwii> heading out soon
[23:15] <troy_s> kwwii: There isn't a helluva lot of time left on the wall front.
[23:15] <kwwii> wassup?
[23:15] <troy_s> kwwii: Just wondering what shifts are in the pipe etc.
[23:16] <kwwii> yeah, I need to edit the pic to remove the bloody neck and tweak the background a bit to be more monochromatic
[23:17] <troy_s> kwwii: Oh fuck
[23:17] <troy_s> kwwii: Like uh...
[23:17] <troy_s> kwwii: Anyways, the last revision I hit it with (anti-bloody unioned people etc.) is on that wiki.
[23:18] <troy_s> kwwii: Monochromatic is just plain naff.  I have no idea how to say that any clearer _again_.    It would seem less 'lazy', but such is the nature of the last minute.)
[23:22] <kwwii> troy_s: off the top of my head at 00:21 my time on Sunday, no.....ask me again tomorrow :-)
[23:22] <kwwii> there is the whole murrine vs ubuntulooks stuff
[23:22] <kwwii> murrine is probably more bug free
[23:23] <kwwii> but anyway, I am going to sleep
[23:23] <kwwii> for now at least
[23:23] <kwwii> tomorrow I will resume work on a few icons
[23:23] <kwwii> yippeee
[23:23] <troy_s> aight
[23:23] <troy_s> out
[23:24]  * troy_s outs as well.


[00:00] <bkerensa> paultag: You moving to Debian full time?
[00:00] <bkerensa> :D
[00:00] <paultag> bkerensa: yeah, I'm gone :)
[00:01] <paultag> bkerensa: I'm going to start NM before the end of the year
[00:01] <paultag> or early january
[00:01] <bkerensa> paultag: Well then you should come to the first ever Ubuntu Local Jam/Debian Bug Squashing Party ;)
[00:01] <bkerensa> heh
[00:01] <paultag> bkerensa: it's not first ever :)
[00:01] <paultag> we had an Ubuntu Upstream Jam
[00:01] <paultag> and we've had a few ubuntu / debian hackathons at MIT
[00:02] <paultag> there are enough DDs in boston to make that super easy to pull off
[00:02] <bkerensa> maybe vorlon made a typo :P
[00:02] <paultag> :)
[00:03] <paultag> bkerensa: but yeah, I'm stoked.
[00:03] <bkerensa> paultag: Well its sad to see you leave... You provided more guidance to our loco then anyone else on the council
[00:03] <bkerensa> ;)
[00:04] <paultag> bkerensa: I'll be around here or there, but I'm dropping roles
[00:12] <greg-g> paultag: not yet :) I will be looking into the locolint stuff more in depth later, I'm not feeling the best (headache and such) right now, so minimizing comptuer time
[00:13] <paultag> greg-g: totally. rock on :)
[00:13] <paultag> greg-g: just trying to make the transition unsuck
[00:13] <greg-g> paultag: thanks man
[00:14] <paultag> greg-g: get some rest, we'll be around :)
[00:14] <greg-g> paultag: where should I find you in IRC-land in the future (if not here)?
[00:14] <paultag> (the royal we)
[00:14] <paultag> greg-g: as `paultag' on here or oftc, but I'll idle here for at least the cycle, if not more
[00:14]  * greg-g nods
[00:14] <paultag> so if you don't find me, I'm screen'd
[00:14] <paultag> or email :)
[00:14] <greg-g> word
[00:14] <paultag> paragraph
[00:14] <paultag> ok, great
[00:14] <paultag> get sleep, greg-g :)
[00:14] <paultag> rock on, congrats
[01:11] <mhall119> paultag: it seems once again I'm going to have to say you were right
[01:11] <mhall119> at least, a little bit right
[01:12] <mhall119> you were a little bit wrong too, which makes it easier :)
[01:25] <paultag> mhall119: well alright :)
[01:25] <paultag> mhall119: how so, if I might ask :)
[01:30] <paultag> (forgive me if I lag out, wifi is flaky)
[01:36] <mhall119> mine too, I blame U1
[01:36] <mhall119> anyway, I've been working my way through outlining my whole "capitalism in the open source community" essay
[01:36] <paultag> ah, very flaky subject :)
[01:36] <mhall119> and there's very little application of capital going on
[01:37] <paultag> humm.
[01:37] <paultag> mhall119: well tell me, what did you find?
[01:37] <mhall119> trying to map what we have to a real-world market system, the closest I can get is a Jeffersonian yoeman-farmer/agrarian economy
[01:38] <paultag> hurmm.
[01:39] <paultag> mhall119: what's the closest brand of communism you could match with how you were profiling f/oss communities?
[01:40] <mhall119> I'm not as familiar with communist economic models
[01:40] <mhall119> I was leaning towards a gift economy, but we're really not
[01:40] <paultag> yeah, I always had a hard time finding a good fit
[01:41] <paultag> it's just sort of.. odd. Once you factor in the complete lack of scarcity, it's tough to find any economic model
[01:41] <mhall119> so basically we have project owners == land owners, and contributors == laborers, but I haven't found anything in f/loss that has the caracteristics of an investor/businessman
[01:42] <paultag> mhall119: I'm not sure I totally buy the land owner argument
[01:42] <mhall119> paultag: not really, ESR's essay does a good job of showing that the commodity of value in f/loss is recognition, not code
[01:42] <paultag> because at any point you can take the farm and copy it somewhere else without any real drain
[01:42] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, I mean, sure.
[01:42] <paultag> but at the same time, it's more about talent then recognition
[01:42] <paultag> imho
[01:42] <mhall119> in which case, a fork of a project doesn't give you all the value of reputation of the original project
[01:43] <paultag> sure, the ole' survival of the fittest model
[01:43] <mhall119> again, the common commodity isn't the code itself
[01:43] <paultag> the beryl / compiz fork / merge is a good example
[01:43] <mhall119> like you said, there's no scarcity of code, so it has little value as a commodity
[01:43] <paultag> right
[01:44] <paultag> like I said, it's all very darkly :)
[01:44] <mhall119> but there is a scarcity (or at least non-infinite) amount of recognition to go around
[01:44] <mhall119> my only problem with that is, recognition isn't exactly a commodity, not all recognition is equal
[01:45] <paultag> I'm not super sold with that argument
[01:45] <mhall119> which?
[01:45] <paultag> but I'll take it for now
[01:45] <paultag> that we trade and deal in recognition
[01:45] <paultag> it's a sort of... by-product
[01:45] <mhall119> did you read ESR's essay I linked you to a while back?
[01:45] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, his argument was that, I seem to recall
[01:45] <mhall119> he makes a strong case, IMO
[01:45] <paultag> he does
[01:46] <paultag> but I don't buy it totally
[01:46] <paultag> I don't know. It's all very murky
[01:46] <paultag> I'm not so sure we have a good way to model this stuff
[01:46] <mhall119> but I think I can take that and, applying traditional market principles, explain some of the things we see in our community
[01:47] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, sure.
[01:47] <paultag> the only thing is you can't "spend" your 'cred
[01:47] <mhall119> we'll see, it's all just a hypothesis at this point
[01:47] <paultag> you can flaunt it and use it
[01:47] <paultag> but there's no "drain"
[01:47] <mhall119> paultag: you can though, and you do without knowing it
[01:47] <mhall119> and you can drain it
[01:47] <paultag> which I guess is why we see a lot of jerkoffs
[01:47] <paultag> mhall119: yeah, but not by using it
[01:47] <paultag> if there is such a thing
[01:48] <mhall119> think of the people who used to get others to work for them, but can't anymore, because they shot their reputation
[01:49] <mhall119> or, think of people you know who do good work, but are asking for others to do work for them so often that their requests for work start gaining less and less response
[01:49] <paultag> humm
[01:50] <mhall119> an example, if I put out an alpha version of a diving log, how many people would be interested in such a program?
[01:50] <paultag> yeah yeah yeah, linus :)
[01:50] <mhall119> now, imagine if Linux was throwing one of those out every week
[01:50] <mhall119> how long before people stopped rushing to contribute to them?
[01:51] <paultag> mhall119: but see, I'm not totally convinced that that can't be modeled with marxist theory
[01:51] <mhall119> maybe, which of his books should I read to get a better understanding of his theories?
[01:51] <paultag> mhall119: well, for this. Humm.
[01:52] <mhall119> I have the communist manifesto, I'm thinking I should get das kapital too
[01:52] <paultag> mhall119: Dask Kapital is dense
[01:52] <mhall119> then, of course, I need to read keynes and that austrian guy too
[01:52] <paultag> erm, Das
[01:53] <paultag> mhall119: try the Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844
[01:53] <mhall119> on sec
[01:53] <paultag> mhall119: his theory of alienation / estrangement of labor is huge in this, I think
[01:54] <paultag> I think it's part of the reason why I can code so much and not feel stressed by it
[01:54] <mhall119> bah, google books fails me on that one
[01:54] <paultag> mhall119: there's a wiki page on this, I'm sure
[01:54] <paultag> one sec
[01:54] <paultag> mhall119: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation <- I think this affects F/OSS communites
[01:55] <mhall119> oh, 1966, probably still under copyright
[01:55] <paultag> Alienation from the product he produces
[01:55] <paultag> The labour becomes impersonal
[01:55] <paultag> Alienation from the human race
[01:55] <paultag> Alienation from other human beings
[01:56] <paultag> His argument is working for someone else to produce goods that you have no "say" in (that is to say, works that are estranged from you)
[01:56] <paultag> the worker is subject to those 4 things
[01:56] <paultag> as described on the wiki :)
[01:57] <paultag> by doing F/OSS work we become more human
[01:58] <paultag> boom. truth bomb
[01:59] <mhall119> that only works if you are doing f/loss work for different reasons
[01:59] <mhall119> it's not because the code is f/loss
[01:59] <paultag> true
[01:59] <paultag> if you foss for fun :)
[01:59] <paultag> if you do it for work, it's just as bad as normal work
[01:59] <paultag> erm, not normal. nonfree
[02:00] <mhall119> hmmm, you know, I think I can use that
[02:00] <paultag> mhall119: that's just one very small (and almost tangent) note - there's a lot of good stuff in marx
[02:01] <mhall119> if you do f/oss work for the recognition you get, not the joy of making it....
[02:01] <paultag> a lot of original / translated marx is very dense, so the sparknotes might be just as good
[02:01] <paultag> mhall119: ah, yes. True.
[02:03] <mhall119> ah tomoboy, what did I do before we met?
[02:04] <mhall119> I'm going to have to structure this into a series of blog posts, just my notes are too long for just one
[02:05] <paultag> yeah
[02:05] <mhall119> paultag: unrelated, but when I'm ready to get my Qimo packages into Debian, would you be able to help me get them right and sponsor them?
[02:05] <paultag> mhall119: sure, I'd be glad to help in any way I can
[02:06] <mhall119> thanks man
[02:06] <paultag> mhall119: I can review it to archive-quality and you can shoot it off for real sponsorship
[02:06] <mhall119> you better not /quit this channel
[02:06] <paultag> then sync it back :)
[02:06] <paultag> mhall119: nah, I wont
[02:07] <mhall119> I'm not sure I'll be ready before the debian import freeze on 12.04, we'll see
[02:07] <paultag> mhall119: file a RC bug ;)
[02:07] <paultag> mhall119: and DIF is fine, you can sync during alphas
[02:07] <paultag> mhall119: you just have to request it :)
[02:07] <paultag> after DIF *
[02:08] <mhall119> my packages don't currently work, haven't for a couple cycles now
[02:08] <paultag> mhall119: well, get it in ship-shape and we can get it playing nicely :)
[02:08] <mhall119> I need to finish stripping out my xubuntu-desktop dependencies
[02:08] <paultag> :)
[08:08] <dholbach> good morning
[08:53] <nigelb> 47
[08:53] <nigelb> bah
[14:35]  * paultag kicks feet up
[14:45] <czajkowski> >:(
[14:45]  * paultag waves to czajkowski over his piña colada
[14:46] <paultag> aloha :)
[14:47] <czajkowski> there are words for you mister!
[14:47] <paultag> czajkowski: like "lovie-dovie" and "awesome"?
[14:47] <czajkowski> I never use the word awesome!
[14:47] <paultag> czajkowski: "totally bogus!"
[14:47] <paultag> or as we say: "to-bo"
[14:48] <paultag> more of a toe then a too/two
[14:48] <czajkowski> nutter


[08:10] <TheMouldyMarsBar> Nobodys here
[08:26] <knome> madnick, morning
[12:12] <madnick> knome: imo, the best course of action is to display the message entirely, this is due to the alternative being dynamically generate new labels, which I feel might not be the best idea given different screen resolutions
[12:45] <knome> madnick, okay, that works
[12:50] <madnick> knome: could you link the new code you had, so i can use that for testing instead of the original
[13:25] <knome> madnick, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-art/xubuntu-artwork/precise/revision/160
[16:24] <ochosi> knome: about the lightdm-workitem: i think we oughta put that to blocked because robert_ancell never answered my email and i'm not sure what we want is even possible at this stage with the sample greeter
[17:10] <knome> mmh, k
[17:10] <knome> ochosi, or postpone?
[17:12] <ochosi> we could set it to blocked until the UI freeze (if that hasn't taken place already) and then postpone it
[17:13] <knome> ui freeze gone already
[17:13] <ochosi> ok :)
[17:13] <knome> that's why mr_pouit whined me about logo chaneg
[17:13] <ochosi> then we could say we wait till the end of the week and then postpone it
[17:14] <knome> ochosi, we need that one change for the elementary-xfce too
[17:14] <ochosi> i.e. next monday is the deadline for the login
[17:14] <knome> the app menu icon
[17:14] <ochosi> already pushed
[17:14] <knome> oh?
[17:14] <knome> really?
[17:14] <ochosi> you don't seem to read the push-messages from github closely enough ;)
[17:14] <knome> no
[17:14] <knome> :P
[17:15] <knome> where did you get the logo from?
[17:15] <ochosi> i already asked mr_pouit for testing
[17:15] <ochosi> it
[17:15] <ochosi> 's places/48/distributor-logo.svg
[17:15] <ochosi> so it'll be scaled down to 16px
[17:15] <ochosi> but that happens in the panel-appmenu as well
[17:15] <knome> huh?
[17:16] <ochosi> so i don't see a problem with that
[17:16] <knome> are we talking about the same thing?
[17:16] <knome> the new logo as the new app menu icon?
[17:16] <ochosi> no, i didn't add that, i just fixed the bug for the xfdesktop-appmenu :}
[17:16] <knome> yeah
[17:16] <knome> there ya go :P
[17:16] <ochosi> i wasn't sure how you want to proceed with the new logo
[17:17] <ochosi> one way is just pushing it
[17:17] <knome> we should schedule a meeting
[17:17] <ochosi> yup
[17:17] <ochosi> i think that'd be best


[00:00] <kwwii> I laughed for like 2 days when I figured out that the splash screen accepts normal png files but still only does 8bit transparency
[00:00] <_MMA_> kwwii: meh. :)
[00:00] <mgunes> I'm not concerned about where it ends, because, as I said, I'm not saying "the less DE branding, the better"
[00:00] <mgunes> I'm talking about one specific thing
[00:01] <kwwii> for now all I can say is that officialy we have discussed this and decided not to do it
[00:01] <kwwii> it is a gerneral rule which I thinkis totally ok to follow
[00:03] <_MMA_> Even in this instance I really dont think it matters. :) Any you "Murat" are just talking about this one thing but what about the next person, and the next. I really think the amount of branding we can do now is good. The more you remove the more I think it insults GNOME. Just me. ;)
[00:03] <_MMA_> s/Any/And
[00:04] <kwwii> that is kinda the tinking behind it
[00:04] <mgunes> kwwii, could you comment on bug 176417 to reflect this?
[00:04] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 176417 in gnome-system-monitor ""System" tab should have Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176417
[00:05] <kwwii> done
[00:06] <mgunes> thanks
[00:06] <kwwii> np
[00:12] <somerville32> Ok
[00:12] <somerville32> I think I got a package :)
[00:14] <kwwii> somerville32: killer
[00:14] <kwwii> if you can do a debuild on it we can get someone to include it
[00:15] <kwwii> we need to post the links to the debuild pieces of every package to a motu dev
[00:15] <kwwii> normally, I can see that this happens
[00:15] <_MMA_> Really, if this *is* a temp package its WAY more work then it needs to be. :P
[00:16] <kwwii> in any case, I would start by posting links to those debuild things in the ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-desktop channel
[00:16] <kwwii> _MMA_: temp until we figure out the final scheme
[00:16] <kwwii> that is a long way
[00:16] <kwwii> it will probably stay with this packaging until we have the final stuff done for hardy
[00:16] <_MMA_> Then no need to build a new package.
[00:17] <_MMA_> Just update the current one in BZR and have Seb push the changes.
[00:19] <somerville32> Oh
[00:19] <kwwii> _MMA_: I would rather take this step now and see how things work out
[00:20] <kwwii> if we cannot change things, we only need to update a few parts
[00:20] <somerville32> This is confusing.
[00:20] <kwwii> if we do change it, well, we change it and have to work on it
[00:20] <kwwii> for now, this is the right thing to do
[00:20] <kwwii> several people have already told me why we cannot change things
[00:20] <kwwii> so it might be a step we want to in hardy+1 first
[00:21] <_MMA_> Guaranteed, you _WILL_ have to touch this package again.
[00:21] <_MMA_> oh.
[00:21] <_MMA_> Then if thats the case, (+1) you should have said when I asked. :)
[00:21]  * somerville32 would like to note that there is already a ubuntu-wallpapers package
[00:22] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'll just strangle you in April. :P
[00:22] <kwwii> somerville32: right, that was before my time, and we probably want to go back to that
[00:22] <kwwii> although with a different name for the actual pic
[00:22] <somerville32> kwwii, It has been updated for hardy
[00:22] <somerville32> It already conflicts gutsy-wallpapers
[00:22] <kwwii> :-)
[00:23] <kwwii> have to talk to seb about this tuff
[00:23] <kwwii> stuff
[00:23] <kwwii> I have no idea :-)
[00:23] <somerville32> Or maybe dholbach since he seems to be the one doing the work
[00:23] <kwwii> the biggest problem is that dholbach is no longer working on this stuff
[00:23] <_MMA_> somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?
[00:23] <kwwii> so he can also give information and an opinion but he will not work on this in the future
[00:24] <somerville32> _MMA_, yes
[00:24] <somerville32> I think it is best we disregard what I've done tonight and wait until we have a meeting with all the players
[00:24] <somerville32> There seems to be a lot of duplication going on
[00:25] <kwwii> right
[00:25] <somerville32> ubuntu-artwork depends on ubuntu-wallpapers and not gutsy-wallpapers
[00:26] <_MMA_> If everyone would just listen to me it would be fine! :P
[00:27] <_MMA_> Oh well. kwwii will just end up copying Ubuntu Studio's package for +1. ;)
[00:29] <somerville32> kwwii, It seems like we've already migrated to using a standard ubuntu-wallpaper package in Hardy
[00:29] <somerville32> And it is managed in bazaar
[00:30] <_MMA_> The package isnt the big problem. Though this helps, its the naming of the wallpaper.
[00:30] <somerville32> _MMA_, and what are you recommending?
[00:30] <_MMA_> But after Hardy does seem like the best time to have a new setup.
[00:30] <kwwii> somerville32: hrm, perhaps we should talk to others before moving on
[00:30] <kwwii> maybe things have changed without me knowing about it
[00:30] <somerville32> Things _have_ moved
[00:30] <somerville32> I'm looking at the hardy packages right now
[00:31] <_MMA_> Not the way they need to though.
[00:31] <kwwii> lol, and they expect me to know about that without telling me
[00:31] <_MMA_> The file name needs to be standard.
[00:31] <_MMA_> We're going around in circles.
[00:31] <somerville32> _MMA_, It is standard. :P
[00:31] <_MMA_> "_MMA_: somerville32: Look at the source package. Does it still use the "warty" naming scheme?" "somerville32: _MMA_, yes"
[00:31] <somerville32> _MMA_, Everything is now standard. The only thing weird is the standard name for the standard background - it still starts with warty-
[00:32] <_MMA_> "_MMA_: The file name needs to be standard."
[00:32] <somerville32> I think we're arguing semantics
[00:33] <kwwii> so what has changed?
[00:33] <somerville32> kwwii, there is a ubuntu-wallpapers package and ubuntu-artwork depends on it
[00:33] <_MMA_> No. Its the same thing Ive said all day today and before you joined the channel for weeks now. ;)
[00:33] <_MMA_> kwwii: The *package* name has changed only. Not the file name.
[00:34] <kwwii> hehe
[00:34] <somerville32> Who cares about the file name?
[00:34] <somerville32> Thats the smallest problem
[00:34] <_MMA_> No its not.
[00:34] <kwwii> hehe, that is what all the other devs said
[00:34] <kwwii> it is very important
[00:34] <kwwii> but for now, we can just update that packagte
[00:34] <_MMA_> Naming it based on a release was short-sighted.
[00:34] <kwwii> pachage
[00:34] <kwwii> erm
[00:34] <kwwii> package
[00:35] <somerville32> The big issue was that the package name was dependent on the release name - ie. it kept changing each release
[00:35] <somerville32> That caused problems
[00:35] <_MMA_> No, as that can be a easy depend change. Change the file name of the default wallpaper breaks upgrades.
[00:36] <_MMA_> *Changing
[00:36] <somerville32> Are we planning to change the filename for the default wallpaper each release?
[00:36] <_MMA_> No. Just a one time change to something generic.
[00:36] <kwwii> the update system just has to check for that
[00:37] <kwwii> it is not that big of a deal
[00:37] <_MMA_> But like Ken finally said, it should be done for +1.
[00:37] <somerville32> The fact that the file name is currently not generic is NOT a big deal.
[00:37] <kwwii> nope
[00:37] <somerville32> Having to create a new package each release, IMHO, is tedious and was the issue and it seems resolved
[00:38] <_MMA_> somerville32: Its a big deal if people have been wanting change it since friggin Hardy. If people didnt want to change it sure. Doesnt matter.
[00:39] <_MMA_> Its just a oddity. An OCD kinda thing. Still it was short-sighted.
[00:39] <somerville32> Right
[00:39] <somerville32> So, I don't see how you can value this change over the now not having to create a new package each release
[00:40] <somerville32> Whatever the filename is, it really makes no difference besides being "neat" and logical.
[00:41] <_MMA_> Well earlier in the chat kwwii said the new "package" was called "hardy-". Thats bad as far as making a new package every time.
[00:41] <somerville32> The new package is ubuntu-wallpapers
[00:41] <_MMA_> But what started all this was simple the file name.
[00:41] <_MMA_> *simply
[00:42] <somerville32> What package needs to be changed?
[00:42] <somerville32> To change the default name?
[00:42] <_MMA_> So like I said the package could be called anything. The filename has been the issue.
[00:43] <_MMA_> Um...
[00:43] <_MMA_> Im not sure.
[00:43]  * _MMA_ looks.
[00:43] <somerville32> _MMA_, I disagree. The filename IMHO is not an issue at all, just an oddity
[00:43] <_MMA_> TheMuso might know off-hand.
[00:44] <_MMA_> somerville32: Dammit! Its an issue because its what started this chat! :) Odd as it is.
[00:44] <somerville32> _MMA_, Weird. I'm pretty sure it was the workflow
[00:45] <_MMA_> Someone noticed many releases ago that it was called warty still but changing it would break things. Thats why we''re having this chat. :)
[00:46] <somerville32> Then this would be a big waste of time.
[00:46] <_MMA_> Ubuntu Studio sets the default in our -settings package. I gotta look to see where Ubuntu does it.
[00:46] <somerville32> kwwii, I see you're an admin of ~ubuntu-art-pkg
[00:47] <kwwii> somerville32: yepp
[00:48] <_MMA_> somerville32: Ubuntu does it in "ubuntu-artwork" Look in "/usr/share/gconf/defaults"
[00:48] <somerville32> _MMA_, I don't see it setting the background image
[00:48] <somerville32> _MMA_, only themes
[00:48] <_MMA_> /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
[00:49] <TheMuso> _MMA_: for what?
[00:49]  * kwwii heads off to sleep
[00:49] <_MMA_> somerville32: Sorry. /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_gutsy-wallpapers
[00:49] <_MMA_> TheMuso: We found it. What package sets the art defaults in Ubuntu.
[00:50] <TheMuso> Ah ok.
[00:50] <somerville32> Umm...
[00:51] <_MMA_> somerville32: So Im guessing the new one will be "/usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-wallpapers" And the 1st line still reads "/desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename "/usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-ubuntu.png""
[00:52] <somerville32> That file doesn't belong to ubuntu-artwork
[00:52] <somerville32> It appears to me that it is indeed gutsy-wallpapers
[00:53] <_MMA_> Synaptic shows different.
[00:53] <_MMA_> Crap.
[00:53] <kwwii> lol
[00:53] <kwwii> go to bed
[00:53] <TheMuso> luke@marin:~$ dpkg -S /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
[00:53] <_MMA_> Yeah.
[00:53] <TheMuso> ubuntu-artwork: /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
[00:53] <TheMuso> luke@marin:~$
[00:53] <kwwii> dream about it
[00:55] <TheMuso> hrm. Ubuntu-artwork is not maintained in bzr?
[00:55] <_MMA_> So kwwii I think you need to get a meeting together with the interested parties so we can go over this for +1. Or, just copy what Ubuntu Studio does. ;)
[00:55] <kwwii> ;-)
[00:57] <somerville32> _MMA_, What do you guys do?
[00:57] <_MMA_> Well we're looking at moving all the art to 1 source package.
[00:57] <_MMA_> Minus the settings though.
[00:58] <_MMA_> I guess we'll have to look at that.
[00:59] <somerville32> kwwii, So can you add me to that team?
[01:01] <kwwii> Cody A.W. Somerville ?
[01:01] <somerville32> Correct
[01:01] <kwwii> done
[01:01] <somerville32> Thanks
[01:01] <somerville32> kwwii, Are you going to schedule a meeting?
[01:02] <somerville32> I'm eager to see things get resolved.
[01:02] <kwwii> somerville32: yes, in a day or so I will announce another meeting this omnth
[01:02] <kwwii> month
[01:02] <somerville32> kwwii, Shouldn't we get this squared away before Alpha 2?
[01:02] <kwwii> we should try to do it as soon as possible
[01:02] <kwwii> BUT, I am on vacation and have other work to do as well
[01:03] <somerville32> I know in the past we've had artwork freezes and what not
[01:03] <somerville32> Do we have a schedule for hardy?
[01:03] <somerville32> (maybe we could update the topic to provide some of that info/links to important docs?)
[01:04] <_MMA_> You know, Ubuntu Studio just follows Daniels "-look" package. And actually the only thing outside of our "-look" package is the icons.
[01:04] <kwwii> :-)
[01:04] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah
[01:04] <kwwii> nobody wanted to deal with that
[01:04] <_MMA_> Outside of the "-look" source package.
[01:04] <kwwii> I made a howto and everything
[01:05] <_MMA_> Did you work with Daniel on the -look package?
[01:05] <kwwii> yes
[01:05] <_MMA_> Well why didnt they switch since Daniel made it?
[01:06] <_MMA_> they=Ubuntu
[01:07] <kwwii> 2am here, going to bed really soon
[01:07] <_MMA_> :)
[01:07] <kwwii> I think they wanted me to do it
[01:07] <_MMA_> You said that an hour ago. :P
[01:07] <kwwii> no doubt
[01:09] <_MMA_> TheMuso: https://launchpad.net/example-look
[01:11]  * TheMuso pulls the branch associated with that project.
[01:11] <_MMA_> Hehe. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg
[01:11] <TheMuso> Does example-look get used for anything currently?
[01:11]  * _MMA_ didnt know there was a team. :P
[01:13] <_MMA_> kwwii: Luke is gonna join the team. Please approve so he can clean it up like he did our source.
[01:13] <_MMA_> There's files everywhere that should be removed.
[01:14] <_MMA_> Duplicates and such.
[01:15] <TheMuso> Join request sent.
[09:43] <dilomo> hi all
[09:52] <Cimi> kwwii, did you read my blog?
[11:14] <kwwii> hi Cimi
[11:15] <kwwii> no but I saw a pic from you
[11:15] <Cimi> so read it
[11:16] <kwwii> will do
[11:17] <kwwii> hehe, and you told me I was crazy
[11:26] <Cimi> kwwii, yes
[11:27] <Cimi> nautilus can't be patched of course
[11:27] <kwwii> why is that?
[11:29] <Cimi> ?
[11:29] <kwwii> why can't nautilus be patched?
[11:34] <Cimi> cause I don't want an alpha-capable nautilus :)
[11:34] <Cimi> there's no reason
[11:35] <kwwii> well, if you think about it there is really no good reason to do any of this at all
[11:35] <kwwii> it is all about making things look nice
[11:35] <kwwii> anyway, I would not suggest making the whole window transparent
[11:36] <Cimi> that's why we can't patch nautilus :)
[11:36] <kwwii> well, if you add transparency to any window it should be added to all windows, I think
[11:37] <kwwii> otherwise it will look quite freaky to see some transparent apps and some not
[11:38] <Cimi> so we just say "yes it is possible" but we won't do anything
[11:38] <kwwii> :p
[11:39] <Cimi> kwwii, did you reached any mockup^
[11:39] <Cimi> ?
[11:39] <kwwii> actually, right now I am on holiday but I am still working on stuff
[11:39] <kwwii> there will be a whole row of mockups ready be the beginning of the new year
[11:40] <Cimi> ok perfect
[11:40] <Cimi> did you talked with mark about my sponsorship? I've worked a lot as you can see
[11:41] <kwwii> yes, we layed out plans for what we need to change and made it clear that sponsorship is needed
[11:41] <kwwii> but anything to do with money has to go through my boss
[11:42] <Cimi> why?
[11:42] <kwwii> because it is a company, like any other
[11:42] <kwwii> I can only be responsible for so much at any given time
[11:42] <Cimi> so we should ask canonical?
[11:43] <kwwii> I work for canonical, and my boss does as well
[11:43] <kwwii> so we are asking canonical ;-)
[11:44] <Cimi> in the end
[11:44] <kwwii> I'll talk to scott and find out more info and get back to you
[11:44] <Cimi> what do i have to do? :D
[11:44] <Cimi> ok
[11:44] <kwwii> mainly it is about impressing mark enough for him to say "I want to do this" and then we say "well, we have to pay someone to do it"
[11:46] <Cimi> kk
[12:35]  * darkmatter looks at current state of his prototype and laughs insanely
[12:35]  * Toma- joins in the laughter
[12:36] <darkmatter> hmmm... I'm thinking fine diagonal for  few elements.....
[12:36] <andreasn> darkmatter: hm?
[12:36] <andreasn> darkmatter: screenshot?
[12:37] <darkmatter> andreasn: not yet. its still 80% clearlooks. but last weeks shots are on my flickr page :)
[12:37] <andreasn> hm, let's see, do I have you as a friend?
[12:41] <darkmatter> andreasn: am finishing up initial mockups. then refining. lots of ideas to make it look really nice once I do more engine work. going to be very clean, elegant, professional. no super dark outlines on the widgets (more natural looking, but still distinct), little niceties like (on the initial gilouche coloured build) fine diagonal pinstripes in the g-m-m header :)
[12:41] <andreasn> what's your url to you flickr page now again?
[12:41] <darkmatter> to kill the plastic look
[12:41] <andreasn> sounds cool
[12:42] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/
[12:42] <darkmatter> oops. thats the gallery
[12:43] <andreasn> ok, added you as a contact
[12:43] <darkmatter> ok
[12:45] <darkmatter> added you as well
[12:45] <Toma-> has there been any talk about ditching the whole windows 95 layout in terms of panels with start buttons?
[12:46] <darkmatter> *shrugs*
[12:46] <Toma-> 12 years on people still emulate it :\
[12:47] <darkmatter> indeed
[12:47] <kwwii> Toma-: what is your sollution to that problem?
[12:50] <andreasn> there are some nice approaches like gimmie, awn and Big Board coming up
[12:51] <Toma-> kwwii➜ i rather like the e17 way of things with the favorites menu
[12:51] <Toma-> and a launcher if its really needed
[12:51] <darkmatter> I have a cool approach in the works, have a couple devs waiting for mockups.. really need to get those finished
[12:51] <Toma-> Gimme is a cool idea
[12:52] <kwwii> ahhh, so we copy osx instead :p
[12:52] <Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/e17fireball.png
[12:52] <Toma-> thats my layout at the moment
[12:52] <Toma-> moves alot of the focus away from panels
[12:53] <kwwii> right, I am using awn in gnome as well
[12:53] <Toma-> darn zombie processes
[12:53] <andreasn> awn is nice, I use that as well
[12:54] <Toma-> yeh but then, awn is an osx rip off
[12:54] <andreasn> gimmie is promising since it cares about people and documents
[12:54] <andreasn> but not quite polished
[12:55] <darkmatter> kwwii: an interactive, user aware information display for the main ui, a 'menu' that is also user aware, (Pndora is the name of the concept), both are tied into the desktop 'first mate' (Nostromo) which is basically a stream-based 'activity center'
[12:55] <darkmatter> :P
[12:55] <darkmatter> *Pandora
[12:55] <kwwii> right and you are going to come and teach my wife how to use this in 5 years when it is ready, right?
[12:56] <Toma-> I think Gimme was probably inspired by this mockup, which as you can see, people like. http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/May-B?content=45837
[12:56] <andreasn> rip off and rip off, it's a interface that takes care of launching and running your apps...
[12:56] <Toma-> kind of ditches the win95 and mac layout
[12:57] <kwwii> I have nothing against changing things around but there are lots of issues involved and simply being different for the sake of being different isn't always the best answer
[12:57] <andreasn> yeah
[12:57] <kwwii> that is a pretty neat mockup though
[12:57] <Toma-> kwwii➜ yeh. but at the same time, evolution is needed when you have windows and mac on the sides trying out all sorts of things
[12:58] <kwwii> true as well
[12:58] <kwwii> well, time to take my son to a basketball game...bbl
[12:58] <darkmatter> kwwii: true, but what about 'being different for the sake of being better'? ;)
[12:58] <kwwii> :-)
[12:59] <Toma-> yeh id hate to just keep rolling along for years giving the wheel a fresh lick of paint, when we should really be designing a hovercar :)
[12:59] <andreasn> I think one needs to think in terms of "does a alternative provide us with a better interface that solves a problem" rather than "it's a win95 ripoff"
[13:00] <Toma-> andreasn➜ the windows 95 thing is centered around the whole "Click here to start" thought. If you have a panel and a decent way to manage open windows, you can look at better ways to ditch the layout
[13:00] <Toma-> and we do have that option
[13:01] <Toma-> to an extent the current menu bar thing is doing something different, but really its just spreading Start button over 3 buttons
[13:01] <andreasn> I agree that the current default is not ideal at all, after all, I use awn as it scales better :=
[13:01] <andreasn> :)
[13:02] <andreasn> but I try to stay off thinking about such basic concepts as panel approaches, there are smarter people out there that can work that out than me :)
[13:02] <Toma-> :)
[13:03] <andreasn> time for lunch, later!
[13:03] <Toma-> l8r
[13:03] <darkmatter> andreasn: depends. a stream based interface is more task/activity oriented. puts the data first. it also serves to unify things in a more logical manner. the only 'hurdle' as such is the actual interface design. and as far as the main ui goes, its still basically a panel/'slab' type thing, it just works on an entirely different level :)
[13:03] <Toma-> darkmatter➜ is that the way sugar works?
[13:04] <darkmatter> but the pael wouldn't be a panel. more of a 'dashboard' of sorts
[13:04] <darkmatter> Toma: as far as more of an 'activity center' approach.. I believe so
[13:05] <Toma-> right
[13:08] <darkmatter> Toma-: I believe in putting the data first and foremost. basically, abstracting things so that the actual app is of little importance. its still used, but is just a tool that gets selected when we choose to perform a specific task
[13:09] <Toma-> i c
[13:11] <darkmatter> Toma-: I was discussing this in a lot of detail a week or two ago, and someone pointed me to a concept-project that is actually quite similar. I'l link
[13:11] <darkmatter> http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/freeman/lifestreams.html
[13:11] <Toma-> oh neat :D
[13:19] <darkmatter> one of the elements to making the desktop more of a home (aside from naturalizing workflow in a more organic way), is really stupid-simple to do. its a matter of personalizing (makin the system more user aware). it could be things as simple as a local-time based welcome/part message on login/off, power on/shutdown, whatever. to thing's more complicated, like having certain interface elements 'learn' from the user
[13:21] <darkmatter> as far as personalizing goes, it seems rather frivolous, but is really a matter of user-psychology
[13:23] <Toma-> im sure with a little bit of philosophising we could all come up with something alot more streamlined
[13:23] <darkmatter> yup
[13:28] <Toma-> thats what holidays are for :>
[13:30] <darkmatter> Toma-: on element I've been attempting to storyboard/discuss is communication, when it comes down to it, be it email, chat (voip, text, video), whatever - there is really no difference between our primary forms of communication (ok, technically the protocols vary, but we are addressing things from the user perspective). so I've been looking at a way to centralize things. basically  akin in some ways to gimmies 'people' but more flex
[13:30] <darkmatter> ible (and thus powerful)
[13:30] <darkmatter> *one
[13:30] <Toma-> indeed
[13:31] <Toma-> a strong communication platform is a good basis. its a shame about so many protocols but in seperate apps, the protocols are adressed quite well
[13:32] <Toma-> for instance, my parents still bug me about how to email a photo to someone
[13:32] <Toma-> use this program to import, this one to resize it, this one to send it.
[13:35] <darkmatter> Toma-: yup. they need to be centralized in a 'meta addressbook' of sorts, one that is protocol aware (can display status), etc, and it should have a nice, user friendly, custom widget for 'send to'. that way by clicking the appropriate method (envelope for email or whatever, etc) it sends directly
[13:36] <darkmatter> remove all the crud in the middle
[13:36] <darkmatter> action > result
[13:36] <Toma-> yeh
[13:37] <Toma-> infact, even a central sort of active contents destination would be good
[13:37] <darkmatter> yup
[13:37] <Toma-> use a little popup for 'what do you want to do with this file/s?'
[13:38] <darkmatter> yup
[13:38] <Toma-> kde does it for inserted media, but it could be used better for content youre working on
[13:43] <darkmatter> what would be really cool (been discussing it as well) but would be a pain in the arse to implement would be a 'natural language' command line. so you could type something like "steven, here's is a picture of my dog bobo at my parents place' and have the system send it. the issue being obviously that syntax varies.. but still an interesting idea
[13:44] <Toma-> its possible
[13:44] <Toma-> look at how chat-bots are created
[13:44] <darkmatter> but more realisically it would be like 'email bobo.png to steven "heare's a picture of my dog that was taken at my parents place"'
[13:45] <Toma-> http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=f5d922d97e345aa1
[13:45] <Toma->  Human: Can you email my picture to darkmatter?
[13:45] <Toma-> ALICE: Sure I can email. What is your email address? Your picture to darkmatter?
[13:45] <Toma-> :D
[13:46] <darkmatter> :)
[13:53] <darkmatter> that's what my current gtk engine project is a part of. its basically a first small step to creating a more inviting, more natural feeling environment. making the 'desktop' feel more organic visually, still the same elements obviously, but less artificial
[13:53] <Toma-> cool
[13:55] <darkmatter> I'm sick of all the hard, plastic feeling lines that are the norm in interface design.
[13:55] <Toma-> yeh :(
[13:55] <Toma-> gloss makes me feel like im in a hospital or something
[13:57] <darkmatter> LOL. it took me long enough to make the initial button design feel 'real'. but in general the design should be 'soft'. use light and shadow to define shape
[13:57] <darkmatter> yeah. I dont like the whole 'web 2.0' desktop graphics movement either
[13:59] <darkmatter> I'm not into minimalism either. but a lot of the minimalistic stuff does feel a lot more natural than not
[14:02] <darkmatter> Toma-: but the nice thing is I've actually caught the attention of some devs who are interested in 'playing'. so I'm going to finish spitting out the live mockup of the gtk real quick, then do up a few quick ui mockups and see if we can get some stuff started :D
[14:03] <darkmatter> brb.
[14:12] <Toma-> wb
[14:15] <darkmatter> :)
[14:25] <darkmatter> andreasn: ignore the general look, it still looks primarily like clearlooks, but I'd like your opinion on the scrollbars
[14:25] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/2112165573/
[14:29] <Toma-> right side of the raised slider looks a little lost since the background is nearly the same colour at the slider, imho
[14:30] <darkmatter> hmmm... yeah
[14:32] <darkmatter> hmm... clipping the gradient a bit should fix that
[14:32] <Toma-> *nod*
[14:38] <darkmatter> Toma-: the fun part is I'm working on everything twice. first mockup a particular set of widgets in pixmaps, then one its 'good enough' for releasible quality I crack open my build dir and start messing in cairo. and its actually a lot less work that way, as I avoid constant rebuilds ;)
[14:39] <Toma-> sounds sensible :) I did the same sort of thing in SVG when i made my e17 theme
[14:40] <darkmatter> hmm.. I shouls do a matching e theme one its done :)
[14:40] <darkmatter> *should
[14:40] <Toma-> yeh the clearlooks port looks terrible
[14:41] <darkmatter> *nods*
[14:44] <darkmatter> Toma-: I was actually thinking that, with all the animations that can add bling, a really clean, rice paper level of minimalism would look really neat in e. take the common 'rainbow ribbon' motif that is used to spice up minimal themes and animate it :D
[14:45] <Toma-> yeh
[14:45] <Toma-> i only used a little splash of animation in my theme
[14:46] <Toma-> makes it alot less 'flash-for-the-sake-of-being-flash'
[14:46] <darkmatter> well. not necessarily that minimal, but maybe gaia like *shrugs*
[14:46] <Toma-> ahh yeh
[14:46] <darkmatter> Toma-: yeah. I vew animation as a tool. basically it should help bring focus
[14:47] <darkmatter> like, with the engine I'm working on for gtk, subtle 'pulse' animations on mouseover
[14:47] <darkmatter> nothing drastic
[14:48] <Toma-> http://julius.sourceforge.jp/en_index.php?q=en/index.html && http://www.alicebot.org/about.html && http://www.stanford.edu/~dramage/gci/
[14:48] <Toma-> :)
[14:48] <Toma-> that sounds nice
[14:48] <Toma-> i didnt know gtk could do animations
[14:48] <darkmatter> Toma-: and it should be used to smooth transitions as well. thats about it imho
[14:49] <Toma-> Speech to text && AI Robot && command line
[14:49] <darkmatter> yup. bookmarked :)
[15:02] <Toma-> time for sleep and more holidaying. cheerio
[15:03] <darkmatter> Toma-: currently I'm just really working on defining the feel of the lighting for the gtk, so basically it will initially feel a little like a softened clearlooks (long way about it, but probably the best path) once thats done then the fun begins, going to give it a more artsy feel, but still practical enough in design to appeal to a wide range of users (I want the engine to 'work' for the home, the office, the minimalist, and those
[15:03] <darkmatter>  with a more refined aesthetic) but I most definitely dont want it to be drab or generic