[01:19] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
[01:19] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu]  Welcome to #ubuntu! Please read the channel topic and consider spending some time on the FAQ mentioned there
[01:19] (gnomefreak/#ubuntu-classroom) ty Hobbsee and fabbione
[01:19] (daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) thanks.. i also have to be at school the whole week ;)
[01:20] (Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) thanks fabbione
[01:20] (fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) no problem
[01:20] (Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) daschl: they'll also be at the link in !logs
[01:20] (daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) !logs
[01:20] (ubotu/#ubuntu-classroom) Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[01:20] (daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) ah ok :) thanks
[01:20] (fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) logs should be on the web starting within the next 60 minutes
[01:20] (Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) :)
[01:20] (fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) there is nothing right now
[01:23] <gnomefreak> how do you remove a hackergotchi from bzr? i  know to add its "bzr add heads/pic.png
[01:23] <DerXero> mahltied
[01:25] <stgraber> hi
[01:33] <jackflap> hello
[01:33] <stgraber> hi
[01:33] <jackflap> am i interrupting anything?
[01:33] <Hobbsee> no
[01:33] <Hobbsee> not yet
[01:34] <Lesley> Hello!
[01:35] <stgraber> It starts at 15:00 UTC
[01:36] <Lesley> I am new at this! getting ready for class!
[01:36] <Hobbsee> got your school books out Lesley?  :P
[01:37] <Lesley> yip! coffee and snacks
[01:38] <Lesley> I have no idea what it means to have a cloak, a mask,....all sounds very scary!
[01:38] <stgraber> I'm interested in the "Packaging 101" and "
[01:38] <stgraber> Maintaining an Ubuntu Package"
[01:39] <stgraber> hmm, bad copy/paste
[01:39] <stgraber> that's for today, I'll be mostly at school for the others day :(
[01:40] <stgraber> and I'll miss the Edubuntu one :(
[01:41] <tonyyarusso> Lesley: It means that instead of showing up like "tonyyserver<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu-classroom" you would show up as something like "tonyyserver [n=tonyyserver@ubuntu/member/tonyyserver]  has joined #ubuntu-classroom"
[01:42] <Hobbsee> Lesley: we have ghosts that wander around mid-class, distracting people, and the like :P
[01:43] <tonyyarusso> Hmm...can I reload /etc/screenrc without killing a screened app?
[01:43] <Lesley> ok - well can you guys protect me from anything strange and i am sure I will learn alot when class begins!
[01:51] <Lesley> Why is some text red, others blue etc?
[01:52] <samkon> :) have you ever been in IRC before?
[01:52] <Hobbsee> Lesley: the red lot usually means that your nickname is somewhere in it?
[01:52] <samkon> some of them are messeges to you from server
[01:53] <Hobbsee> (which arent shown in the main window of xchat, iirc)
[01:53] <samkon> because of that they have different colors
[01:53] <Grishkin> How long now to wait before 3-00?
[01:54] <samkon> 6 minutes here, there ?
[01:54] <Grishkin> wow
[01:54] <Lesley> Ok! yip - i am a virgin - veerry green! but will do some homework!
[01:57] <Hobbsee> Lesley: you're doing fine :)
[01:57] <Lesley> cool bud!
[01:58] <LinuxBA> CypherBIOS: heya!!!
[01:59] <CypherBIOS> LinuxBA: good to see you!
[02:00] <CypherBIOS> LinuxBA: do you know what time will be here at "15:00 UTC" ?
[02:00] <LinuxBA> 12:00
[02:00] <Hobbsee> 2 more hours
[02:00] <Hobbsee> @now
[02:00] <LinuxBA> at Salvador
[02:00] <Hobbsee> Seveas: no ubugtu?
[02:01] <CypherBIOS> Hobbsee, LinuxBA: tanks
[02:01] <CypherBIOS> thanks
 6 minutes here, there ?
[02:02] <Grishkin> i think that's wrong :)
[02:03] <samkon> Grishkin: no it was true
[02:03] <samkon> it is 15:03 here now
[02:03] <Grishkin> it is not UTC i mean
[02:03] <stgraber> we talk about 15:00 UTC :)
[02:04] <Hobbsee> everything is in UTC here
[02:04] <Grishkin> so it it about 15-00 UTC now?
[02:04] <fabbione> it's 2 hours to 15:00 UTC
[02:05] <fabbione> date -u
[02:05] <fabbione> Mon Nov 27 13:05:05 UTC 2006
[02:05] <Grishkin> yes
[02:05] <Hobbsee> do we have any ops in here?
[02:05] <Lesley> Hobbsee are you in London?
[02:05] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: si
[02:05] <Hobbsee> Lesley: nope,  australia
[02:06] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: please add http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 to the topic
[02:06] <samkon> is there two hours to it begins ?
[02:06] <jono> fabbione, is there a bot in here?
[02:06] <Hobbsee> samkon: yes
[02:06] <jono> to log the sessions?
[02:06] <Lesley> Im in South Africa - its 15.10 here
[02:06] <Hobbsee> jono: yes, ubuntulog
[02:06] <jono> woo!
[02:06] <samkon> :(
[02:06] <elkbuntu> jono, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
[02:06] <jono> nice :)
[02:07] <samkon> I did not sleep yesterday becaouse of my exam today
[02:07] <Hobbsee> Lesley: everything is in UTC time, so we dont all go insane.  see that tinyurl link i just gave for when it is in your timezone
[02:07] <fabbione> jono: yes.
[02:07] <samkon> and I may be sleeping fromt of the computer
[02:07] <jono> would be nice to have some ops around this week to look after things
[02:07] <samkon> in 2 hours
[02:07] <samkon> :(
[02:07] <Hobbsee> hey cool, i have ops!
[02:08] <tonyyarusso> Dangit...
[02:08] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I need to get me a topic sed script...
[02:08] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: so do i
[02:09] <Hobbsee> i think that'll make it a bit clearer - and that time and date can be updated to whatever date/time you want to use.  and there's a "give me the time in all timezones now" button too
[02:09] <Hobbsee> jono: hopefully you wont need ops
[02:10] <jono> Hobbsee, :)
[02:10] <Hobbsee> jono: but i wont be here for the majority of it
[02:10] <jono> nice to see a pretty full room here
[02:10] <Hobbsee> jono: bah.  you'll be fine.
[02:10] <Hobbsee> jono: /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-classroom list
[02:10] <jono> heh
[02:11] <hastesaver> jono, 128 is nowhere near full by #ubuntu standards :-)
[02:11] <jono> hastesaver, sure
[02:11] <Hobbsee> jono: the third entry, in particular
[02:11] <Hobbsee> [00:10]  [Notice]  -ChanServ- 3   10    *!*@ubuntu/member/*                 0s
[02:11] <jono>  /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-classroom list
[02:11] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Ah, wise.  I don't think that was there before.
[02:11] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: me neither
[02:11] <jono> :)
[02:11] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: ompaul must have done it
[02:11] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: ^ if you didnt know
[02:14] <hastesaver> what does it mean? Does it means that all ubuntu members are ops?
[02:15] <tonyyarusso> hastesaver: For this channel, for open week
[02:16] <tonyyarusso> My tab-complete skills are terrible.
[02:16] <tonyyarusso> There we go
[02:16] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Just got the script - pretty cool, btw.
[02:17] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee, jono: Wait - he probably won't be able to use that access entry, since his host mask isn't enabled.
[02:21] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee, jono: But any op can op someone else for a particular session, right?  So as long as somebody is around to give it to him at some point before it starts he'll be fine.
[02:22] <jono> I am sure we will be fine
[02:22] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: yes
[02:22] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: and seeing as an op is any ubuntu member...
[02:23] <Hobbsee> then again, it probably doesnt cause any harm for jono to be op'd all the time
[02:23] <tonyyarusso> Odds are there might be just a few?  ;)
[02:24] <jono> thanks
[02:25] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:25] <freeflying_> hi Hobbsee :)
[02:26] <Hobbsee> hey freeflying_!
[02:26] <samk0n> /nickserv identify elsa8650
[02:26] <Hobbsee> er...
[02:26] <Hobbsee> you might want to change that password
[02:27] <Hobbsee> and you wanted /msg nickserv identify elsa8650
[02:27] <samk0n> bcause of differenr script
[02:27] <samk0n> :S
[02:28] <finalbeta> You should test in server window anyway, not in a channel ;)
[02:29] <atoponce> samkon: you can set your nickserv password as your server password when you connect to freenode
[02:29] <atoponce> then you never have to '/msg nickserv identify <pass>' and risk showing it in a channel
[02:30] <atoponce> if using irssi, it's really easy: /server add -network freenode irc.freenode.net 6667 <pass>
[02:34] <tonyyarusso> In addition to fabbion?'s logs, I also have logging going now, at http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
[02:34] <tonyyarusso> samkon: Having trouble there?
[02:35] <samkon> because of my connection
[02:35] <samkon> It goes sometime :S
[02:36] <samkon> my silly cables
[02:36] <samkon> :(
[02:36] <samkon> sorry for it
[02:36] <makke> samkon: i dont think its your connection
[02:36] <makke> samkon: (Nick collision from services.)
[02:37] <Hobbsee> makke: it is, then he's getting his nick back
[02:37] <makke> samkon: you have posted your nickserv passwd somewhere?
[02:37] <makke> Hobbsee: someone is ghosting him
[02:37] <hastesaver> makke, if you mean the person who typed his password in plaintext a little while ago, that was samk0n, someone else.
[02:38] <Hobbsee> they changed nicks
[02:39] <Hobbsee> yeah, ghosting on that nick isnt working, it's just a bad connection, it seems
[02:40] <makke> hmm, bad connection would be a ping timeout or something
[02:40] <rmunn> Quick question: is anyone going to be putting up transcripts for those who miss a session?
[02:40] <Hobbsee> rmunn: yes
[02:41] <Hobbsee> rmunn: they're already going up at !logs
[02:41] <rmunn> Because I'll be traveling tomorrow and I'm going to miss jono's "Becoming an Ubuntu Member" session.
[02:41] <rmunn> Ah, good.
[02:41] <atoponce> rmunn: yeah. there's ubuntulog and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/ that i know of so far
[02:41] [atoponce(n=aaron@oalug/member/atoponce)]  help
[02:41] <rmunn> Sorry for my ignorance: what's !logs ?
[02:41] <rhk_> Will someone link it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[02:41] <rmunn> Good idea, a link on the wiki would be nice
[02:41] <tonyyarusso> !logs | rmunn
[02:41] <ubotu> rmunn: Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[02:42] <rmunn> tonyyarusso: thanks
[02:42] <Hobbsee> rmunn: in here, anything prefaced with a ! means a command to the resident bot, ubotu
[02:43] <rmunn> I see. How do I ask ubotu what commands it recognizes?
[02:43] <Hobbsee> er....i dont remember?
[02:43] <Hobbsee> !bot
[02:43] <ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[02:43] <Hobbsee> there :)
[02:43] <rmunn> Thanks. I'll go back to lurking now for a while. :-)
[02:45] <hastesaver> I'll probably miss almost all the sessions, as 15:00 UTC is 20:30 here and if I'm not out of here by 22:00 (= 16:30 UTC), I get locked in for the night :-)
[02:46] <Hobbsee> hastesaver: there are logs.  i'm missing most of them too
[02:46] <tomasz> same here -- I think it's 2300 localtime when this starts, a little late for me ;)
[02:48] <Hobbsee> tomasz: try 2am start :P
[02:48] <srikanthssn> same here.. hastesaver, where in india ??
[02:48] <atoponce> 8am start here
[02:48] <tomasz> 2am yeow
[02:48] <Hobbsee> which is why i'm not staying up.
[02:48] <tomasz> i got work in the morning i just can't do that.. =)
[02:48] <tomasz> understood hehe
[02:48] <srikanthssn> to top it all i have 2 exams up this week
[02:48] <Hobbsee> jono: are you going to do the "ask mark" sessions as moderated?
[02:48] <Hobbsee> ick
[02:48] <Hobbsee> exams are evil
[02:49] <tomasz> but they feel so good once you finish 'em =)
[02:49] <davmor2> no school is evil
[02:49] <hastesaver> srikanthssn, AFAIK, only India has UTC+0530 :-)
[02:49] <srikanthssn> hmm ya.. just finished one :)
[02:49] <lotusleaf> mine!
[02:50] <srikanthssn> hastesaver, thats why asked where you are in india ?
[02:50] <samk0n> I changed my samkon pass but the pass is wrong now
[02:50] <hastesaver> srikanthssn, and that was my way of answering "yes, but you didn't even need to ask" :-)
[02:51] <jono> one sec, one the phone Hobbsee
[02:51] <Hobbsee> jono: no problems
[02:52] <srikanthssn> hastesaver, free..no probs
[02:55] <Daylighter> ooh
[02:55] <fafek2> Ubuntu Open Week starts in next hour, right?
[02:55] <gnomefreak> fafek2: yes
[02:56] <fafek2> Great. I can't wait!
[02:57] <ubulinu> we all can't wait I guess.... the nail-biting ubuntu crowd
[02:57] <jono> hey
[02:58] <nmsa> hello
[02:58] <jono> Hobbsee, I would like the Ask Mark session to be moderated I think
[02:58] <jono> I am still weighing up my options here
[02:58] <HamishTPB> given the weekend's postings I should think so, Jono ;-)
[02:59] <Hobbsee> jono: use a +z moderation, i guess.  that'll let ops all read the questions.  but i havent used moderated mode before, where i've been moderating.
[02:59] <hastesaver> jono, maybe you can wait to see from the earlier sessions whether there are any indications it will be necessary ;-)
[02:59] <Hobbsee> jono: ask Seveas about that, i think.
[02:59] <Hobbsee> hastesaver: i would expect it would be.  we've had trouble with soem of the classroom sessions before
[02:59] <jono> hastesaver, indeed
[02:59] <hastesaver> There are always hecklers in any crowd, I guess...
[03:00] <lotusleaf> I would hope the sabdfl chat is moderated :)
[03:00] <pichi__> moin
[03:00] <lotusleaf> good morning
[03:00] <pichi__> open day today
[03:01] <rhk_> inded
[03:01] <Hobbsee> jono: having said that, +m is usually bad for keeping a crowd interested - it's like web streaming - what's the point?  everything's going on without you anyway
[03:01] <tonyyarusso> jono: As a heads up, the last regular classroom session had an issue with a repeat join/part spammer using tor, so you might end up having to do an all-tor ban if any idiots try something like that, unfortunately.
[03:02] <lotusleaf> Hobbsee perhaps, but it controls chaos
[03:02] <Hobbsee> lotusleaf: indeed
[03:02] <lotusleaf> Besides, I would think sabdfl is interesting enough to hold interest ;)
[03:03] <stgraber> the other way is to put the channel into moderated mode (+m), speak and only voice (+v) the people that have question (with removing the +m sometimes to know who has some questions)
[03:03] <buttari> help
[03:04] <jono> Hobbsee, good point
[03:04] <jono> tonyyarusso, right
[03:04] <jono> tonyyarusso, would be good to have some IRC experts around to protect against this
[03:04] <gnomefreak> we normally use +m when we hold classes here
[03:04] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: yes.  what's the point?  you may as well read the irc log?
[03:04] <Hobbsee> jono: indeed.  elkbuntu's learnign it all :)
[03:04] <jono> what is +m again?
[03:05] <stgraber> only OP and Voice can speak
[03:05] <fafek2> Do you expect many people?
[03:05] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: so we can fit the class in under 6 hours ')
[03:05] <gnomefreak> jono: it mutes everyone except ops and voice
[03:05] <jono> right
[03:05] <hastesaver> And what's +z?
[03:05] <jono> makes sense for the main tuition part
[03:05] <jono> and then remove +m for the Q+A
[03:05] <gnomefreak> hastesaver: thats so only ops can read what users say
[03:06] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: hehe, true
[03:06] <lotusleaf> rather than removing +m and open potential chaotic floodgates, you could have a seperate channel for questions or ask that one person be a go-between in PM for questions
[03:06] <jayteeuk> Afternoon all.
[03:06] <Hobbsee> jono:  +m == moderated
[03:06] <chrisle> hi is someone from the desktopteam here?
[03:06] <lotusleaf> example: /msg soandso your questions for consideration
[03:06] <Hobbsee> chrisle: soon
[03:06] <lotusleaf> or a particular channel
[03:07] <farmer> fabbione thanks for the logs mate...
[03:07] <fafek2> Do you expect many people?
[03:07] <jono> Ng, go away
[03:07] <gnomefreak> http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml are the modes
[03:07] <tonyyarusso> fafek2: Well, we already have 161 with an hour to go
[03:08] <Ng> jono: :(
[03:08] <fafek2> Yeah. I think how many of them will take part in discussion and how many of them will be just watching...
[03:08] <Ng> jono: you think you're better than me? ;)
[03:09] <jono> Ng, hehe
[03:09] <Ng> just think of those pennies, my friend :)
[03:09] <jono> Ng, my asspennies!
[03:09] <Ng> mwaha
[03:09] <jono> I wonder if we can break 200 by the time the session begins
[03:10] <rhk_> would guess so.. Only 40 to go..
[03:10] <ubulinu> I bet 300, we are here because we couldn't figure how UTC works
[03:10] <gnomefreak> if you read the topic ther eis a time translater for users that are not sure what time UTC is for them
[03:11] <ubulinu> I know, thanks, was just a joke... ;-)
[03:11] <jayteeuk> ubulinu: Speak for yourself.  I'm only here early because I'd have forgotten to turn up otherwise. :D
[03:11] <HamishTPB> jono lotusleaf Hobbsee etc: if you use +m then no-one who is not opped or voiced will have their messages seen - if you want someone to see the messages but not show them in the channel you need to use +z
[03:11] <jackflap> should i register my nickname in order to follow this chat or can i just leave it?
[03:12] <fafek2> Funny... I didn't know what's the UTC thing means too...
[03:12] <Hobbsee> jackflap: you dont need to, to follow, but you will, if you want to private message people
[03:12] <gnomefreak> jackflap: you can just leave it we shouldnt have the need to +r the channel
[03:12] <Hobbsee> fafek2: universal time zone or something
[03:12] <fafek2> :P
[03:12] <fafek2> There is only a second between GMT and UTC.
[03:12] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: correct, which is why I suggested either a second channel for questions to be submitted, or a go-between person to PM to take question submissions, accepted questions will quote the indivudual who had the question
[03:12] <HamishTPB> fafek2: UTC=GMT
[03:13] <jackflap> cheers, ill just leave it then
[03:13] <fafek2> Yeah, I know.
[03:13] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: if you go with voicing someone what is to stop them from going crazy for a short time?
[03:13] <HamishTPB> lotusleaf: if you use +z then one person can field questions and then voice them when it is their turn to ask or whatever?
[03:13] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: whatever works =)
[03:13] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: carne asada burritos are delicious any time of the day
[03:13] <HamishTPB> lotusleaf: nothing to stop them but you could even just forward the Qs being the "moderator" using +z
[03:14] <gnomefreak> +z will annoy the instructer if hes +o
[03:14] <HamishTPB> hmmn
[03:14] <HamishTPB> yeah
[03:14] <HamishTPB> trying to remember what they do for tutorials on other netw**k
[03:15] <HamishTPB> hello to all btw :) Been using Kubuntu now for about 6 months and feel like I know some of you already from reading blogs etc :)
[03:16] <hastesaver> gnomefreak, then let the instructor not have +o. Let others take care of the problems. After all, the instructor needs to concentrate :-)
[03:17] <Daylighter> we need to develop sort of a screenshot vidcasting software.... so you can do these sessions with a live screen in front of them
[03:18] <Daylighter> when you start ubuntu up for the first time, have it fetch the latest schedule of sessions and hint to you to try them
[03:18] <proppy> Daylighter: gobby ?
[03:18] <davmor2> Daylight isn't that part of what telephany enables you to do?
[03:18] <pmjdebruijn> Istanbul -> GStreamer -> Flumotion?
[03:18] <Daylighter> o_o
[03:18] <Daylighter> I dont know
[03:19] <dholbach> davmor2: Farsight?
[03:19] <gnomefreak> this is gonna be rough.
[03:20] <gnomefreak> dholbach: you only have an hour :(
[03:20] <dholbach> gnomefreak: hm?
[03:20] <gnomefreak> for the packaging 101
[03:20] <dholbach> for the Packaging 101
[03:20] <davmor2> dholbach doesn't it use the telepathy as backend or am I mistaken
[03:21] <dholbach> davmor2: I'm not quite sure what you mean... what uses Telepathy?
[03:21] <davmor2> farsight
[03:21] <dholbach> gnomefreak: it's only an introductory session
[03:21] <gnomefreak> ah
[03:21] <davmor2> dholbach ignore me it's gossip I'm thinking of
[03:22] <dholbach> davmor2: telepathy uses farsight, which is a framework for audio/video conferencing
[03:23] <davmor2> thought it had something to do with it somewhere but then couldn't find reference to it afterwards :(
[03:23] <davmor2> knew I'd seen the two linked
[03:24] <proppy> dholbach: does packaging 101 cover making a package without cdbs or dh_* ?
[03:24] <dholbach> proppy: I'll do little bits of this and little bits of that
[03:24] <proppy> dholbach: ok thanks
[03:30] <ezenu3> #join #ubuntu
[03:30] <tonyyarusso> ezenu3: It's /join
[03:30] <effie_jayx> it happens to me all the time
[03:30] <ezenu3> yep, typo
[03:30] <effie_jayx> :D
[03:31] <effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, what up dude?
[03:31] <Lesley> tonyyarusso: you make me laugh!
[03:31] <tonyyarusso> effie_jayx: Oatmeal!  And skipping my first class, since I'd have to leave in 4 minutes and totally don't feel motivated.
[03:32] <Hobbsee> haha
[03:32] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: sounds good to me :)
[03:32] <Lesley> Hobbsee: still awake!
[03:32] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: where's the wiki link for getting my blog added to planet, btw?
[03:32] <elvstone> okay. i'm waiting for my new laptop (ordered last week), onto which i will install kubuntu. so now i'll stay here for the whole community thingie and you all have to learn an old FreeBSD fart ubuntu ;)
[03:32] <effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, where's the first class?
[03:32] <Hobbsee> Lesley: yeah, doing some work on REVU (eek)
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> effie_jayx: Here, half an hour
[03:33] <Hobbsee> Lesley: removing some packages, etc
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPlanet maybe?
[03:33] <effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, thnaks
[03:33] <fulat2k> elvstone: what laptop did u get?
[03:34] <elvstone> fulat2k: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/home/products/notebooks/amilo_si_1520.html <- this one, but with 2 GB instead of 1.
[03:34] <burner> seems like the first UbuntuOpenWeek thing starts in a half hour or so?  :)
[03:34] <elvstone> fulat2k: i looked at the ubuntu laptop testing pages and it seems to be reasonably supported.
[03:35] <fafek2> burner: That's right.
[03:35] <jono> Hobbsee, could you op me please
[03:35] <fulat2k> elvstone: nice.  looks very clen
[03:35] <fulat2k> clean
[03:35] <davmor2> Jono: 6 to go 5 to go
[03:35] <Hobbsee> jono: sure :)
[03:36] <tonyyarusso> burner: Go with a system76, so you can tell me how they are ;)
[03:36] <jono> thanks
[03:36] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i've cleaned up a bit more of REVU :)
[03:36] <elvstone> fulat2k: :)
[03:36] <jono> ph33l my p0w3r!
[03:36] <fulat2k> elvstone: better than the dells all over the office :)
[03:36] <whiprush> morning everyone!
[03:36] <gnomefreak> lol
[03:36] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:36] <jono> v.funny :P
[03:36] <Hobbsee> jono: :D
[03:36] <jono> I wondered what the hell had happened there :P
[03:37] <Hobbsee> jono: at least i didnt kickban you.
[03:37] <jono> woo!
[03:37] <Hobbsee> [01:36]  <-- jono has left this channel (requested by Hobbsee: " now you ph33l my p0w3r!!!!!!  :P").
[03:37] <jono> hehe
[03:37] <fulat2k> elvstone: got myself a core2duo desktop and i'm procrastinating to install kubuntu 6.10 on it :)
[03:37] <Hobbsee> which, i guess you couldnt undo either, as you're not on the access list
[03:37] <elvstone> fulat2k: ah. okay.
[03:37] <Hobbsee> fulat2k: make sure you install edgy on that, not dapper.
[03:38] <fulat2k> Hobbsee: correct me if i'm wrong, edgy == 6.10+?
[03:38] <gnomefreak> fulat2k: yes 6.10 = edgy
[03:38] <Hobbsee> fulat2k: yep.
[03:38] <Hobbsee> fulat2k: you may also need 915resolution (in universe) to get the widescreen resolution, if it's a widescreen machine
[03:40] <fulat2k> cool, then i should be set.  at least the live cd portion loaded properly :)
[03:40] <Jucato> Hobbsee!
[03:40] <dcomsa> is there a forum where an ubuntu user can find solution to common problems?
[03:40] <Hobbsee> Jucato!
[03:40] <Hobbsee> dcomsa: ubuntuforums.org
[03:41] <dcomsa> Hobbsee: thanks
[03:42] <dcomsa> but i was thinking at an howto
[03:42] <effie_jayx> hey all what UTC time is it? I am in south america and I'm alittle timelessly lost
[03:42] <dcomsa> for instance i had a problem with my headphones output until today
[03:42] <gnomefreak> dcomsa: depends on the problem
[03:42] <davmor2> 14:42
[03:42] <ezenu3> is kernel-generic like kernel-386?
[03:42] <dcomsa> and i want to post the solution
[03:42] <effie_jayx> davmor2,  thanks bro
[03:42] <gnomefreak> exo-griffith: i686
[03:42] <hernan43> mrng
[03:42] <dcomsa> somewhere accessible to others
[03:42] <gnomefreak> oops
[03:42] <gnomefreak> ezenu3: i686
[03:42] <burner> dcomsa: u can also try the wiki if it's appropriate
[03:43] <davmor2> jono 2 to go
[03:43] <dcomsa> burner: is there a ubuntu wiki?
[03:43] <gnomefreak> !sound
[03:43] <ubotu> If you're having problems with sound, first ensure ALSA is selected, by double clicking on the volume control, then File -> Change Device (ALSA Mixer). If you are still having problems with sound, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingSoundProblems  and http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php?page=DmixPlugin
[03:43] <jono> :)
[03:43] <burner> dcomsa: wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:43] <stgraber> dcomsa: wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:43] <tonyyarusso> dcomsa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
[03:43] <gnomefreak> dcomsa: please keep support question sin #ubuntu
[03:43] <dcomsa> :)
[03:43] <dcomsa> thanks all
[03:43] <dcomsa> i'm not asking for help
[03:44] <dcomsa> i just want to shorten others searches
[03:44] <burner> jono: since you're here and it's not yet classtime... lugradio is great!  and jokosher is great!
[03:44] <ezenu3> gnomefreak, so, I always used kernel-k7 cause my processor is AMD Athlon, but when I upgraded to edgy, it gave me kernel-generic. I guess I should switch back?
[03:44] <jono> burner, thanks! :)
[03:44] <gnomefreak> ezenu3: no thats fine
[03:45] <davmor2> Burner see now that's gone to his head and he'll not be able to concentrate
[03:45] <seb128> jono: I think that 200 will be no problem ;)
[03:45] <ezenu3> gnomefreak, it wouldn't be better to use the Athlon specific kernel?
[03:45] <gnomefreak> -generic is a few types of kernels rolled into one. smp is now in the generic. if 64 bit you still need the 64 bit kernels. (i cant remembe roff hand what the k7 provided
[03:45] <burner> eh... people need to know when they do good things davmor2 :)
[03:45] <rhk_> dcomsa: ubuntuguide.org
[03:45] <ubulinu> 200 users! jono, how cool is that?
[03:46] <effie_jayx> burner... overwhelming isn't it?
[03:46] <fulat2k> how much longer? :)
[03:46] <gnomefreak> 10-15 minutes
[03:46] <gnomefreak> give or take
[03:46] <effie_jayx> jono: great fan of your work... looking forward to jokosher :)
[03:46] <rhk_> ezenu3: i686 and K7 put together -> generic
[03:47] <jono> effie_jayx, thanks! :)
[03:47] <fulat2k> cool
[03:47] <davmor2> jokosher 0.2 rocks but 1.0 will rock harder
[03:47] <ezenu3> rhk_, ok, I guess there is no performance benefit to using k7 instead of generic, then?
[03:47] <effie_jayx> jono: will there be a spanish version anytime soon?
[03:47] <jono> effie_jayx, of Jokosher?
[03:47] <effie_jayx> jono: ajam
[03:48] <dholbach> 0.2 should be translated in a couple of languages, right?
[03:48] <gnomefreak> ezenu3: it has the k7 modules you wont tell the difference now please keep support questions in #ubuntu
[03:48] <jono> effie_jayx, I think its available in spanish now :)
[03:48] <rhk_> exenu3: There is no k7 for the new kernel versions, it's i386 or generic now..
[03:48] <rhk_> gnomefreak: right!
[03:48] <dholbach> effie_jayx: jokosher 0.2 will be available in a week or two in feisty
[03:48] <effie_jayx> jono: good... it will help people in my country alot..
[03:48] <jono> its in Chinese (China), Danish, Dutch, English (Philippines), English (United Kingdom), Esperanto, Finnish, French, German, Hebrew, Italian, Latvian, Norwegian Bokml, Polish, Portuguese, Portuguese (Brazil), Russian, Slovak, Spanish, Swedish, Tagalog, Welsh
[03:48] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  :D
[03:49] <effie_jayx> jono: WOW amazing work....
[03:49] <jono> :)
[03:49] <effie_jayx> jono: I am an EFL teacher trying to venture in translating a bit.. since I study Informatics Engineering.. so :)
[03:50] <ubulinu> effie_jayx: Where do you come from?
[03:50] <jono> effie_jayx, wow cool :)
[03:50] <davmor2> dholbach fantastic I can bug report again then
[03:50] <jono> brb
[03:50] <effie_jayx> ubulinu, Venezuela
[03:51] <effie_jayx> ubulinu, north of south america
[03:51] <cs_student> germany
[03:52] <effie_jayx> ubulinu, what about you?
[03:52] <effie_jayx> burner LOL
[03:52] <jono> :P
[03:52] <effie_jayx> burner didn't mean to maintream your idol
[03:52] <lotusleaf> *<:O)
[03:52] <burner> quick question... is there a description other than the title to these things for UbuntuOpenWeek?  like a syllabus or something?
[03:53] <jono> burner, not at the moment
[03:53] <jono> thee is a brief description on the main site
[03:53] <sjoeboo> burner: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek has descriptions
[03:53] <alfmatos> judging by locations, not many are actually in UTC =)
[03:53] <devilsadvocate> burner,  there is a wchedule on the wiki
[03:53] <burner> just curious... i have to work a lot during this week, but knowing when I should try to be around would be nice ;)
[03:53] <effie_jayx> davmor2, LOL
[03:53] <burner> devilsadvocate: i saw that, but it only shows the title... like Ubuntu Desktop Team..  not much more detail
[03:54] <sjoeboo> burner: i hear you on the trying to fit some ni while working thing
[03:54] <fulat2k> alfmatos: most definitely not :)
[03:54] <fulat2k> any idea if the classroom chats are logged and posted for download later?
[03:54] <alfmatos> fulat2k, don't mind, i can represent for UTC =)
[03:54] <gnomefreak> fulat2k: yes
[03:54] <Panzerboy> hello all
[03:54] <gnomefreak> fulat2k: /msg ubotu logs
[03:54] <fulat2k> alfmatos: i'll represent for GMT +8 :P
[03:54] <davmor2> Jono broke 200
[03:55] <fulat2k> gnomefreak: cool.
[03:55] <jono> thrashing 200 :)
[03:55] <devilsadvocate> burner, there is some descriper lower in the page
[03:55] <fafek2> How meeting with Sebastian Bacher will look like? He'll only talk how to become an desktop team?
[03:55] <alfmatos> fulat2k, +8 ? where that exactly ?
[03:55] <fulat2k> alfmatos: southeast asia.
[03:55] <MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
[03:55] <fafek2> Errr... You know what I mean
[03:55] <exo-griffith> fulat2k, I'm in Beijing. :)
[03:55] <fulat2k> alfmatos: i'm in malaysia.
[03:55] <devilsadvocate> indai
[03:55] <tonyyarusso> fafek2: We'll find out ;)
[03:55] <devilsadvocate> india*
[03:55] <rhk_> GMT+2, Helsinki, Finland
[03:55] <malcc> jono: That should thin out the numbers some :)
[03:56] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: beijing is +8 too rite? :P
[03:56] <alfmatos> fulat2k, ok never been anywhere above GMT+2
[03:56] <exo-griffith> fulat2k, yes, it is.
[03:56] <fulat2k> alfmatos: you should try someday :)
[03:56] <fulat2k> alfmatos: i haven't been to anywhere less than +8 :P
[03:57] <seb128> hey mnepton
[03:57] <mnepton> oy!
[03:57] <ubulinu> effie_jayx: sorry, I was away... I'm Swiss, my wife is mexican. Bueno, saludos de suiza ;-)
[03:57] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: how's the weather there?  shanghai seems to be a bit windy/rainy rite?
[03:57] <alfmatos> fulat2k, have tried GMT-6 or so... but not higher =)
[03:57] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: any diff in beijing?
[03:57] <fafek2> One more thing. What's on 16.00? An hour long break before Packaging 101?
[03:57] <benjamin> Hello :)
[03:57] <seb128> mnepton: no need to panic, jono is on commands
[03:57] <mnepton> oh dear sweet jebus ...
[03:57] <effie_jayx> ubulinu,  great mix... swiss cheese and nachos.. viva mexico :)
[03:58] <Hobbsee> mnepton: no need to panic either.  i left a mattress down on the ground.  however, its' very far away from the window.
[03:58] <Hobbsee> hey pitti!
[03:58] <seb128> I'm sure mnepton will be happy to entertain people for one hour at 16utc
[03:58] <exo-griffith> fulat2k, windy, clear sky, nice orange moon, 2 deg C
[03:58] <BugMaN> hi
[03:58] <alfmatos> will the channel be moderated ?
[03:58] <farmer> Goodnight everybody need to work tomorrow please write nice things on the logs
[03:58] <seb128> hey pitti :)
[03:58] <jono> right
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> alfmatos: In some form - that was being debated earlier
[03:58] <jono> we nearly ready folks?
[03:58] <effie_jayx> ubulinu,  greeting from Maracaibo ... the land of the beloved sun
[03:59] <jayteeuk> Nearly time... and just as I think I might be able to participate in some form, a major incident kicks off.
[03:59] <jono> #########
[03:59] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: brr... nice.  it's really bad here.  monsoon season.. blech
[03:59] <Panzerboy> who's the presenter now?
[03:59] <jono> ok some house rules
[03:59] <Grishkin> wahahahahaha
[03:59] <gnomefreak> Panzerboy: seb128 will be
[03:59] <Panzerboy> gnomefreak: ok
[03:59] <jono> we don't want to quieten the channel unless absolutely needed
[03:59] <jono> so while seb128 is teaching, please be quiet
[03:59] <jono> discussion about the session can occur in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:00] <jono> feel free to discuss concepts there while the class is going on
[04:00] <Grishkin> great
[04:00] <jono> everyone ready?!!!
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> jono: If necessary to quiet, does seb128 want +z opt. w/ no ops, or something else?
[04:00] <jono> we will quieten it if needed, but I think we will be fine
[04:00] <jono> right seb128, take it away! :)
[04:00] <seb128> tonyyarusso: I think we are fine, thank you
[04:00] <Casanova> Grub_Now: !
[04:00] <seb128> ok
[04:00] <Grub_Now> pwned
[04:00] <gnomefreak> jono: only one problem people joining wont know
[04:00] <Casanova> Grub_Now: tempted
[04:01] <Grub_Now> Casanova: no, i was pwned
[04:01] <seb128> Good Afternoon Desktop Lovers :)
[04:01] <Panzerboy> jono: put it in the topic
[04:01] <jono> gnomefreak, I will update the topic
[04:01] <pitti> Good afternoon, Monsieur Bacher!
[04:01] <seb128> I'm Sebastien Bacher, and I'm working on the Ubuntu Desktop
[04:01] <seb128> and I'll lead the discussion for the next hour apparently ;)
[04:01] <seb128> so let's get started
[04:02] <seb128> looks like we have some Desktop Team members around
[04:02] <seb128> want to present yourself quickly guys?
[04:02] <Hobbsee> gah
[04:02] <dholbach> Hello everybody, I'm Daniel Holbach, work with "magic" seb128 in the Desktop Team and help him to work on bugs, take care of accessibility related packages, look after Telepathy and Galago packages, try to keep our wiki clean, package new stuff, do a bunch of other things I forgot in the list and try to be there for everybody. I think the Desktop Team's secret to success is Hugging.
[04:02] <Panzerboy> come on guys :)
[04:03] <seb128> other desktop guys who want to say something? ;)
[04:03] <BugMaN> I'm BugMaN and i am admin of Italian Translation gruopu, and in free time i  help triage bugs in Desktop Team.
[04:03] <pitti> also, all sorts of i18n
[04:03] <Hobbsee> sorry guys :(
[04:03] <Grub_Now> pwned again
[04:03] <shastry> Grub_Now: he lies :|
[04:03] <buccaneer> Jee Willikers, I am in an Ubuntu Classroom
[04:03] <seb128> So the Desktop taking is basically the people who take care of the Ubuntu desktop and try to make it rocking
[04:03] <Grub_Now> darn
[04:03] <Grub_Now> Casanova: liar !
[04:03] <shastry> hmpf
[04:03] <seb128> I've some notes for the session
[04:04] <seb128> I'll copy then by block and people are free to comment after each ones
[04:04] <seb128> does it work for you?
[04:04] <Panzerboy> seb128: yeah
[04:04] <seb128> ok, let's go then :)
[04:04] <seb128> The main goals for the team are:
[04:04] <seb128> - update desktop packages when new upstream versions are available
[04:04] <seb128> - make easy for users to try new cool softwares by packaging them quickly
[04:04] <seb128> - have a good collaboration with upstream
[04:04] <seb128> - triage and fix desktop bugs
[04:04] <seb128> - make the Ubuntu Desktop ROCK!
[04:04] <seb128>
[04:04] <seb128> Those are the major goals for the team
[04:05] <seb128> any remark or questions on that?
[04:05] <crevette> Hello
[04:05] <fafek2> How do you know which packages want Ubuntu users?
[04:05] <rmunn> How does the team decide what falls in the category of "desktop packages"?
[04:05] <Panzerboy> seb128: this includes all the xgl aiglx compiz beryl stuff?
[04:05] <seb128> fafek2: we look at forums, lists, bugs
[04:05] <gnomefreak> Panzerboy: no
[04:06] <seb128> Panzerboy: not really
[04:06] <jono> ssh people, lets do Q+A at the end of the tutorial section
[04:06] <seb128> there is a desktop-effects subteam for those
[04:06] <seb128> ok
[04:06] <gnomefreak> :)
[04:06] <Keyseir> holy ops batman
[04:06] <Panzerboy> seb128: ok :)
[04:06] <seb128> Where you can find members of the desktop team:
[04:06] <seb128> - the #ubuntu-desktop@freenode IRC chan
[04:06] <seb128> - the<EMAIL_ADDRESS>mailing list
[04:06] <seb128> we also look at launchpad bugs for desktop packages
[04:07] <seb128> so let's see the things you can do for the desktop team if you want to contribute
[04:07] <seb128> you can
[04:07] <seb128> * Work on Bugs:
[04:07] <seb128> Bugs managements is a good part of the work for the desktop team at the moment and required to prioritise the work and now what problems should worked first
[04:07] <seb128> .
[04:07] <giskard> hi ;)
[04:07] <mnepton> seb128: you also get yelled at by weird people in montreal.
[04:07] <seb128> some points about bug management
[04:07] <seb128> mnepton: right :p
[04:07] <seb128> - Places for desktop bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
[04:07] <seb128> - You can help the Desktop Team by joining the bug squad (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
[04:07] <seb128>  * 236 members to date
[04:07] <seb128>  * ~60000 bug mails in the last year ;-)
[04:07] <seb128>  * Hug Days
[04:07] <Kenton> What is the workflow of a updated package?
[04:07] <seb128>  * forward useful bugs and investigate with upstream
[04:07] <seb128>  * make bug useful (reassign them to the right place, ask for required details, get debug backtrace for crashers, clean bugs that should be closed)
[04:07] <seb128> - help listing bugs that should be fixed for the next version of Ubuntu (or fixes to backport)
[04:08] <Raiko> Hello
[04:08] <jono> Raiko, ssh
[04:08] <seb128> Kenton: let's discuss that after the presentation
[04:08] <seb128> there is not only bugs
[04:08] <seb128> there is also communication with other people
[04:08] <seb128> * Communication with other teams, upstream, Debian, etc:
[04:08] <seb128> We want to have a good relationship with the people we work with
[04:09] <seb128> - work on forwarding patches upstream (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/UpstreamDelta), having a low delta is better for everybody
[04:09] <seb128> - become point of contact between the distribution and upstream for packages you have an interest in
[04:09] <seb128> - work with other teams and Debian
[04:09] <seb128> people working on documentation:
[04:09] <seb128> * Documentation:
[04:09] <seb128> A good documentation help new contributors to know where to start and also not-so-new team members how to do specific things, or what is to do by example
[04:09] <seb128> .
[04:09] <seb128> - help by writing specifications (i.e: documents on launchpad and the wiki that describes the changes we want to get implemented and how)
[04:09] <seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam) (goals, list of things to do, documentation, how to start, etc)
[04:09] <seb128> - help the ubuntu-docs team
[04:10] <Keyseir> gnomefreak, I ran into some weird problems trying to burn a dapper install cd. I downloaded the iso, but the md5sums were different. Reactivated the torrent, it repaired itself for a second. unactivate, broken again. So I tried to leave the torrent open while burning, but the burn came out as a different md5sum sequence and the original iso was an even different sequence even though bt was still open.
[04:10] <seb128> next point: packaging:
[04:10] <seb128> * Packaging:
[04:10] <seb128> Most of the work for a distribution is at the packaging level which means there is some place to contribute there too :)
[04:10] <seb128> .
[04:10] <seb128> - help doing desktop packages updates (update the package, test the new version, communicate issues with upstream is there is any)
[04:10] <seb128> - pick a package you have interest in (contacting the usual maintainer before starting to work on it might be a good idea) and start working on it. No need to have uploads right to start on a package, having your first updates mentored is usually a good start and way to learn. If you do a good job you can quickly become the maintainer for that package
[04:10] <seb128> - work on fixing issues by writting patches or backporting them from upstream and applying those fixes to the packages
[04:10] <seb128> - package new softwares
[04:10] <tux75> salve a tutti
[04:10] <tux75> ho un paio di problemi con la mia ubuntu..
[04:11] <seb128> you can also help testing:
[04:11] <seb128> * Testing:
[04:11] <seb128> - help testing GNOME, write specific test plans
[04:11] <Hobbsee> tux75: english only please
[04:11] <tux75> sorry
[04:11] <BugMaN> tux75: write in english please, (aspetta che finisce di parlare seb128)
[04:11] <seb128> and on other things too
[04:11] <seb128> * Other:
[04:11] <seb128> - new ideas: bring your good ideas of changes for the Ubuntu desktop and help to implement them
[04:11] <seb128> - teams: if you can motivate several people to work on a project creating a team around it is a good way to organize work: pda, printing, mono, telepathy, etc
[04:11] <seb128>
[04:12] <seb128> I think I've listed most of the groups of things you can work on as a desktop team member
[04:12] <seb128> I'll mention some example of tasks to start now
[04:12] <tux75> i've a problem with my ubuntu: when i try to log in a terminal or into a console, i receive a FAIL_DELAY unknown error.
[04:12] <seb128> Examples of tasks to start:
[04:12] <seb128> - If you feel comfortable enough to reply to upstream comment about bugs there is a list of bugs that should be forwarded upstream available on http://tinyurl.com/yzd8t3 (you can also pick bugs not listed there yet, there is plenty of them not categorized to forward)
[04:12] <seb128> - Clean old 'NeedsInfo' bugs
[04:12] <seb128> - help out with packaging, maintaining, merging
[04:12] <seb128> - review bugs with patches attached
[04:12] <seb128> - look at bugs tagged as 'ubuntulove'
[04:12] <gnomefreak> tux75: join #ubuntu
[04:12] <seb128> - write about the new cool changes happening to the UbuntuDesktop world for UWN: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
[04:12] <seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam to make them useful, especially for new contributors (having an updated and useful https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO would be nice by example)
[04:12] <sabdfl> hey seb128
[04:13] <seb128> hello sabdfl
[04:13] <seb128> the starting point on the wiki for the desktop team is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/GettingStarted
[04:13] <seb128>
[04:14] <seb128> ok, so that's probably enough informations presented
[04:14] <seb128> let's do comments on that now
[04:14] <seb128> I'm not sure if the format is ideal, that's the first session ;)
[04:14] <dholbach> Considering the different teams: If you're good at any programming language, you will find that you can help out in the Desktop Team also, there are bindings and programs which use them for lots of different languages, for example Python, C++, Perl, Java and so on
[04:14] <at2000> are KDE and Xfce managed by other teams?
[04:14] <Hobbsee> at2000: yes
[04:15] <seb128> is that clear for everybody what the desktop team is doing and what you can do to contribute and how to join?
[04:15] <seb128> at2000: yes
[04:15] <daschl> seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
[04:15] <dholbach> at2000: yes, there's the kubuntu-team and xubuntu-team in http://launchpad.net/people
[04:15] <popey> makes sense seb128
[04:15] <popey> seb128: can i ask a question?
[04:15] <seb128> at2000: the desktop team is mainly focussed on the Ubuntu desktop (like the Ubuntu CD desktop)
[04:15] <mnepton> at2000: the workflows for those teams are roughly the same, with the same goals. mostly what changes is due to differences upstream.
[04:15] <Panzerboy> popey: don't ask to ask, just ask :)
[04:15] <popey> :)
[04:15] <seb128> hum
[04:15] <fafek2> Don't you have too much responsibilities?
[04:15] <seb128> jono: any idea for the format of questions?
[04:15] <seb128> like one at time
[04:15] <fulat2k> daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
[04:16] <seb128> and how we control that?
[04:16] <jono> I think its best to do things one at a time where we can
[04:16] <seb128> because if everybody asks away that's going to be not easy to manage
[04:16] <fulat2k> any possibility to include beta releases of packages in a separate repo? :)
[04:16] <gnomefreak> seb128: have them pm 1 user with the questions
[04:16] <popey> I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
[04:16] <Riot777> is there some window manager currently more important than other for Ubuntu desktop team or you are trying to support all the same way ?
[04:16] <finalbeta> Does ubuntu have any project that could use help on coding? perl/python/java/mono. I'm a mid leveled coder so fixing bugs is not my thing. Know several high languages and willing to learn a new one. Does Ubuntu have it's own programs apart from the installer?
[04:16] <seb128> ok, let's stop questions
[04:16] <dholbach> daschl: C, Python, C++ sometimes, and others
[04:16] <jono> ok no more questions for now
[04:16] <seb128> and get one question a time
[04:16] <popey> ok
[04:16] <jono> I will indicate when we accept questions
[04:16] <seb128> let me catch up
 seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
[04:17] <seb128> daschl: no need of any particular skill
[04:17] <seb128> and as much time as you want to spend
[04:17] <seb128> if you spend 10 min a week to confirm some bugs
[04:17] <seb128> or make an useful bug report
[04:17] <snail> finalbeta: ubuntu has lots of programs other than the installer
[04:17] <seb128> or reply to an user support question
[04:17] <jono> ok everyone -> ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:18] <jono> then we can pick them out
[04:18] <seb128> any of that is useful
[04:18] <seb128> you don't need any particular skill
[04:18] <daschl> thanks
[04:18] <seb128> just pick something you feel comfortable doing
[04:18] <burner> regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
[04:18] <seb128> might be replying to some user, filling a good bug, forwarding something upstream, etc
[04:18] <seb128> .
[04:18] <seb128> next question
[04:18] <pitti> note: if somebody particularly likes a program and wants to help with bug triage, it would be incredibly helpful if you could establish a contact to upstream, forward bugs to him, discuss bugs, etc.; i. e. become the packages' 'ambassador'
 daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
[04:19] <seb128> .
[04:19] <pitti> this doesn't require much programming skills, and is a valuable contribution
[04:19] <seb128> any language used by upstream
[04:19] <seb128> we don't write a lot of app from scratch
[04:19] <seb128> we get 95% of what we ship from upstream
[04:19] <seb128>  .
[04:19] <seb128> pitti has a good point
[04:19] <seb128> that's something which is especially appreciate
[04:19] <fulat2k> seb128: point noted
[04:20] <pitti> ... and is rewarded with lots of hugs, and even more important, better quality
[04:20] <pitti> :)
[04:20] <seb128> if you have interest in a package and want to work on it and as a contact point for it that's really appreciate
[04:20] <pitti> ... and KARMA
[04:20] <seb128> by the distro team
[04:20] <gnomefreak> lol
[04:20] <seb128> by upstream
[04:20] <mnepton> finalbeta: pitti's and seb's comments address your question. if you're interested in writing new code rather than triaging, packaging, or applying small modifications, look upstream to the GNOME, KDE, or XFCE desktop projects.
[04:20] <seb128> and by users
 I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
[04:21] <seb128> popey: you can create a specification for that, or mail a list with your ideas
[04:21] <popey> which list?
[04:21] <seb128> ubuntu-desktop if that's something for the desktop
[04:21] <popey> it is
[04:22] <seb128> ok, so mail the list
[04:22] <popey> ok, will do
[04:22] <seb128> good
[04:22] <popey> thanks
[04:22] <jono> everyone, prefix your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with QUESTION so we can spot them easily :)
 regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
[04:22] <gnomefreak> :)
[04:22] <dholbach> writing a specification and track it in launchpad is a good idea for writing a new app also
[04:22] <seb128> burner: I've to admit that .odt is not my preferred way ;)
[04:23] <seb128> the wiki is nice
[04:23] <seb128> you can also mail the desktop list (with your .odt if that makes the presentation easier for you)
[04:23] <davmor2> is there a preferred level of detail for bugs I understand that this doesn't work isn't that uesful but what do you class as acceptable
[04:23] <popey> thanks dholbach
[04:24] <seb128> davmor2: details on what you were doing, version of Ubuntu you are using
[04:24] <seb128> if the crash happens on a document, having an example attached is useful
[04:24] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures may help in some cases also
[04:24] <gnomefreak> pitti: ambassidor = maintainer?
[04:25] <seb128> for a bug a debug backtrace (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash) is usually required to do something with the bug
[04:25] <dholbach> gnomefreak: no, not necessarily. that's somebody being interested and working on the package
[04:25] <seb128> s/bug/crash
[04:25] <pitti> gnomefreak: FSVO 'maintainer'; this is mainly a communication issue
[04:25] <gnomefreak> k
[04:25] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: can everyone write a spec in launchpad? does it mean I intend to work on that spec or just suggestion of a feature?
[04:25] <seb128>
[04:26] <seb128> at2000: anybody can write a spec yes
[04:26] <seb128> no need to work on it, though it make it easier to be implemented
[04:26] <seb128> we all are already pretty busy
[04:26] <xerxas> being an ambassador for a package is an "abstract" role, right ? there's no such thing in launchpad, right ?
[04:26] <seb128> and there is not a lot of extra new things we can implement with only the core team work
[04:26] <seb128> xerxas: right
[04:27] <sabdfl> xerxas: that's a good point, we should make that an explicit role
[04:27] <xerxas> I think it would be a good idea
[04:27] <seb128> me too
[04:27] <xerxas> I would like to become ambassador on at least one package, which one, I don't know
[04:27] <seb128> that would make things easier for upstream too
[04:27] <gnomefreak> i like that too but having more than one will get confusing
[04:27] <seb128> they would know who to contact
[04:28] <xerxas> gnomefreak,  so we'll need some ambassador helpers
[04:28] <DShepherd> /top
[04:28] <xerxas> or "ambassador assistant"
[04:28] <mnepton> gnomefreak: write the spec. :)
[04:28] <Stemp> isn't one of the role of the package maintener ?
[04:28] <gnomefreak> i will work on it later today
[04:28] <seb128> Stemp: we don't have a fixed maintainer
[04:28] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: translation is dealt upstream?
[04:29] <seb128> DreamLost: I'm not sure to get the question, and it's not really desktop specific
[04:29] <seb128> translations come from rosetta
[04:29] <xerxas> sabdfl, what's up with this ambassador role ?
[04:29] <seb128> we import upstream translations and people are free to work on them from rosetta
[04:29] <BugMaN> DreamLost:  translation in Rosetta start from Upstream
[04:29] <xerxas> should I write a spec for launchapd ? or make a feature request somewhere ?
[04:29] <wrjevowar> quit
[04:30] <BugMaN> DreamLost: but some times ubuntu have new string in a package different from upstream
[04:30] <jpetso> are the rosetta translations fed back to upstream, and if yes, how?
[04:30] <seb128> DreamLost: does that reply to your question?
[04:30] <seb128> jpetso: no
[04:30] <DreamLost> yes, tnks
[04:30] <davmor2> if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
[04:30] <seb128> jpetso: rosetta team is working on some feature to make easier for them to get the changes though
[04:31] <seb128> davmor2: questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[04:31] <seb128> next one
 QUESTION: Are there more localized teams wornking with the ubuntu-desktop-team.?
[04:31] <seb128> effie_jayx: can you explain what you want to know exactly?
[04:32] <effie_jayx> there is an ubuntu grpoup
[04:32] <effie_jayx> in my country
[04:32] <seb128> like if there is a desktop-team-<locale>?
[04:32] <effie_jayx> are people already contributing from there as a group
[04:32] <effie_jayx> I don't want to oversee the effort of other groups in my region
[04:32] <seb128> the desktop-team works on the Ubuntu packages
[04:32] <seb128> that effort is not splitted by region or group
[04:33] <seb128> you are probably speaking about a locoteam
[04:33] <effie_jayx> ajam... I just want to know that ... thanks
[04:33] <seb128> the efforts are not overlaping, don't worry
[04:33] <seb128> ok
[04:33] <seb128> next one
 QUESTION: are there Kubuntu/Xubuntu Desktop Teams too?
[04:34] <seb128> Jucato: yes, there is a kubuntu and a xubuntu team
[04:34] <sabdfl> xerxas: perhaps chat with folks on #launchpad, then it could turn into a small feature spec, yes
[04:34] <seb128> next question
[04:34] <seb128> QUESTION: what would be the best way to find which packages are in need of maintainers/packagers?
[04:34] <xerxas> sabdfl, thanks
[04:34] <seb128> no easy way at the moment I would say
[04:35] <seb128> look if the package is usually quickly updated
[04:35] <seb128> and on the work done on its bugs
[04:35] <Hobbsee> anything that has the maintainer set as debian qa, too.
[04:35] <Hobbsee> (i think)
[04:35] <dholbach> if you're interested in a certain package, you can ask about it on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:35] <seb128> Hobbsee: that's for Debian
[04:35] <Hobbsee> seb128: true
[04:35] <seb128> Hobbsee: a package with no Debian maintainer can have somebody taking care of it on the Ubuntu side
[04:35] <seb128> that is a good question though
[04:35] <Hobbsee> seb128: true, but how likely is that?
[04:36] <seb128> it would be interesting to have some information at the launchpad level about that
[04:36] <mvo> or we could use watch files from debian when available
[04:36] <seb128> like "how actively a package is maintained"
[04:36] <seb128> anybody having good idea on how to evaluate that?
[04:37] <seb128> mvo: right, please open a launchpad feature request (if not already filed) :)
[04:37] <xerxas> QUESTION: can I close some bugs that are in NEEDINFO for a long time (what does a long time mean ?)
[04:37] <sabdfl> we do track the idea of a maintainer for a package in Launchpad
[04:37] <xerxas> (I'm having hard times making decision with malone )
[04:37] <sabdfl> debian asked us to distinguish between the debian maintainer and the ubuntu maintainer or team
[04:38] <seb128> xerxas: question on -chat please, yes, usually I wait one month and close it if there is no reply to the request for informations about the problem
[04:38] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
[04:38] <kappa> the difference between versions of a package in Ubuntu and in upstream can be used as a measure of active maintaintership
[04:39] <seb128> davmor2: since edgy "apport" will created a crash file when a crash happens
[04:39] <seb128> davmor2: they are stored to /var/crash
[04:39] <Grishkin> grishkin@ULTRA:/media/cdrom$ ls /var/crash
[04:39] <Grishkin> ls: /var/crash: No such file or directory
[04:39] <seb128> davmor2: you can read about it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
[04:39] <srikanthssn> seb128, what about drapper ?
[04:40] <crosis> dapper, not drapper
[04:40] <seb128> srikanthssn: for GNOME programs bug-buddy is open after the crash and you can get the bt from it
[04:40] <seb128> srikanthssn: otherwise cf https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash (use gdb)
[04:40] <seb128>
[04:40] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: what is the process to submit a patch for a package? is this documented somewhere?
[04:41] <seb128> at2000: attach it to the corresponding bug to launchpad
[04:41] <seb128> if there is no bug open one
[04:41] <leks> QUESTION: May I ask, why patches fixing eth0 (e1000) on my ibm t60 are in edgy, but not in feisty?
[04:41] <leks> T60 Thinkpad
[04:41] <seb128> leks: question to -chat please, and I don't know about that, not really desktopish :)
[04:42] <at2000> so someone will review the pack and check-in if appropriate?
[04:42] <at2000> do I need to do anything to the bug report to notify someone to review?
[04:42] <seb128> at2000: correct
[04:42] <seb128> no
[04:42] <at2000> ic
[04:42] <burner> seb128: are there any plans for better remote access support via the Desktop team here or would that be more of a gnome/kde/xfce thing?
[04:42] <seb128> people will get the mail about your patch
[04:42] <seb128> burner: question to -chat please
[04:42] <seb128> next one
 QUESTION: say i want to fix a bug. this bux was fixed in upstream how can i get that into the ubuntu package? how can i handle the "ok i have a bug here, what should i do next"-thing?
[04:42] <seb128>
[04:42] <seb128> daschl: that is a good question
[04:43] <seb128> daschl: open a bug to launchpad saying it's fixed upstream and you would appreciate a backport of the fix
[04:43] <seb128> pointing to the upstream commit or attaching a patch make the job easier for us
[04:43] <seb128> or pointing the corresponding upstream bug
[04:43] <dholbach> we have a canned bug search for "patch attached"
[04:43] <seb128> we tend to backport only annoying issue and not every glitch fix though
[04:44] <daschl> i c .. thanks!
[04:44] <seb128> so better to not flood us with request to backport every commit
[04:44] <seb128> we would be happy to backport lot of patches but it's a lot of work and we have only few people working on desktop packages atm
[04:45] <seb128> hint: you can help making a package better by co-maintaining it ;)
[04:45] <daschl> so more people working = more backports available, right?
[04:45] <seb128> daschl: correct :)
[04:45] <seb128>
[04:45] <seb128> next one for dholbach
 QUESTION: is there something like 'debian wnpp' for ubuntu ?
[04:46] <seb128> I think we have some wiki page for that
[04:46] <bhale> revu?
[04:46] <seb128> dholbach usually knows the wiki better than me :)
[04:46] <bhale> wiki.ubuntu.com/revu
[04:46] <seb128> bhale: wnpp is "I would like to get that packaged"
[04:46] <bhale> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
[04:46] <seb128> bhale: REVU is only for things already packaged no?
[04:46] <dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
[04:46] <bhale> seb128: oh, i was thinking of something else then
[04:46] <apokryphos> ubotu: revu
[04:46] <ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[04:46] <bhale> ITP, not RFP
[04:47] <bhale> lart me please
[04:47] <dholbach> (ITP = Intent to package, RFP = Request for package)
[04:47] <seb128> proppy: <dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
[04:47] <seb128> here you go :)
[04:47] <dholbach> which has moved to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates :-)
[04:47] <proppy> seb128: thanks
[04:48] <seb128> np
[04:48] <seb128> next question
[04:48] <mherweg> MOTU ?
 QUESTION: How many package currently fall under the duristiction of the desktop team to give us some idea of how much work you have?
[04:48] <Hobbsee> lots.
[04:48] <apokryphos> mherweg: /msg ubotu motu
[04:48] <seb128> https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs
[04:48] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs
[04:48] <seb128> 1813 bugs assigned
[04:48] <seb128> 2345 bugs subscribed
[04:49] <seb128> we looked recently with dholbach and all the desktop-bugs (closed one included) is like 7500 bugs
[04:49] <pikkio> lots of work :)
[04:49] <seb128> and there is probably a good bunch not assigned to the team
[04:50] <seb128> dholbach: https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packages is empty, did it use to work?
[04:50] <davmor2> seb128 so does that include the packages you have to update or is that just physical bugs
[04:50] <seb128> we used to have a table of the packages with number of bugs I think
[04:50] <Hobbsee> davmor2: physical bugs
[04:50] <seb128> davmor2: bugs
[04:50] <dholbach> seb128: that's only for packages, where<EMAIL_ADDRESS>is the maintainer
[04:50] <seb128> davmor2: I'm not sure about packages, it's about an hundred I would say
[04:50] <dholbach> seb128: you mean https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packagebugs
[04:51] <davmor2> okay
[04:51] <seb128> see the link from dholbach
[04:51] <seb128> it has a list of packages
[04:51] <seb128> dholbach: thank you :)
[04:51] <dholbach> :-)
[04:51] <seb128> next one
[04:51] <seb128> (10 min left)
 QUESTION: is there any way to work on packages on the currently stable release, without having to set up stable+1?
[04:52] <Hobbsee> by using a pbuilder, or dual booting
[04:52] <Hobbsee> !pbuilder
[04:52] <ubotu> pbuilder is a system to easily build packages in a clean chroot environment. To get started with PBuilder, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[04:52] <seb128> jpetso: not easy, some apps don't change a lot though
[04:52] <seb128> or pbuilder
[04:52] <seb128> or you can still help on the wiki, packaging new apps if the requirements are available on stable
[04:52] <seb128> or triage bugs
[04:52] <seb128> or reply to support requests
[04:52] <pitti> some desktop applications are a bit hard to work on in chroots/pbuilder; for these, vmware comes in handy
[04:52] <jpetso> ok :)
[04:53] <giskard> pitti, what apps?
[04:53] <seb128> next one
[04:53] <pitti> giskard: things like gdm, dbus, etc.
 QUESTION: Do you favour slab over the standard gnome interface for menu's?
[04:53] <seb128> .
[04:53] <seb128> davmor2: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-slab
[04:53] <pitti> or any app that requires newer libraries, etc.
[04:53] <giskard> pitti, ahhhh! oki :)
[04:53] <seb128> davmor2: that's the spec about that, the reply is "no"
[04:53] <seb128> we will likely ship it on the CD
[04:54] <seb128> maybe with a desktop profiles app which allow to switch profiles easily
[04:54] <seb128> but we will not pick a different default than upstream
[04:54] <strosset> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:54] <jono> get your final questions in people!
[04:54] <jono> five mins left!
[04:54] <strosset> \join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:54] <guebay> What does UTC mean? Here is 16:54 (Timezone Berlin). How can I calculate now what this is in UTC?
[04:54] <jono> although we can run over a little as there is no session next
[04:54] <andre> strosset: /
[04:54] <seb128> next
[04:54] <dholbach> guebay: date -u
[04:54] <giskard> guebay, date -u
[04:54] <seb128> good question
[04:54] <strosset> thx
 QUESTION: You mentioned the ubuntulove tag in launchpad. What does it mean?
[04:54] <seb128>
[04:54] <Hobbsee> guebay: see the tinyurl link in the topic, too
[04:54] <giskard> dholbach, :
[04:54] <jpetso> guebay: UTC = Berlin - 1
[04:55] <seb128> exo-griffith: that's an "if you look at something to do", like something easy to start and useful
[04:55] <seb128> dholbach has tagged a bunch of those bugs
[04:55] <seb128> I'm trying to do that too
[04:55] <seb128> we will put extra work on that and the TODO list too
[04:55] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs has a "Tasks" section
[04:56] <exo-griffith> so they're a good place to start then?
[04:56] <seb128> it's a way to make easy for people to find something they can start on
[04:56] <seb128> right
[04:56] <seb128> because there is so many component, not easy to know where to start
[04:56] <seb128> we are trying to figure way to make that first step easier
[04:56] <exo-griffith> Cool. Thanks. I'll check them out. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntulove
[04:56] <seb128> if you have any suggestion on the topic feel free to join #ubuntu-bugs to discuss them at any time :)
[04:57] <seb128> or #ubuntu-desktop
[04:57] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: what is the process for updates (bug fixes and security patches)? how long does it take for bugs that have been patched/fixed upstream to be patched in a current release?
[04:57] <bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[04:57] <seb128> Jucato: for stable updates: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[04:57] <seb128> for unstable version?
[04:57] <seb128> as fast as we can come to it
[04:58] <pitti> Jucato: for security bugs, we work independently from upstream releases
[04:58] <seb128> as mentionned before we have some thousand bugs
[04:58] <leks> QUESTION: Did ubuntu decide between compiz and beryl already ?(go for compiz!)
[04:58] <seb128> and an hundred packages
[04:58] <pitti> Jucato: when there is a patch, we review/QA/test it and issue an USN
[04:58] <bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
[04:58] <Jucato> alright, thanks! :)
[04:58] <gnomefreak> sabdfl pitti the spec for ambassadors is already made https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ambassadors
[04:58] <seb128> and only a couple of people working on them
[04:58] <seb128> so it can take some time
[04:59] <apokryphos> leks: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please =)
[04:59] <gnomefreak> nvm
[04:59] <seb128> ok
[04:59] <leks> sorry :-$
[04:59] <seb128> hour is over but there is no session next and still some QUESTION
[04:59] <seb128> so let's keep going :)
[04:59] <Hobbsee> seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
[04:59] <seb128> Hobbsee: -chat please
[04:59] <jono> ## well, you lucky people, there is no session for the next hour so seb is going to keep going while the questions are coming - keep posting the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:59] <Hobbsee> seb128: that was from -chat
[04:59] <jono> :)
[05:00] <Hobbsee> seb128: i just missed the name
[05:00] <seb128> Hobbsee: oh, I pick them in order, no need to bother, thank you :)
[05:00] <Hobbsee> okay
[05:00] <seb128> Hobbsee: or do you want to copy them in order?
[05:00] <seb128> Hobbsee: (you skipped one)
[05:01] <seb128> waouh, lot of questions
[05:01] <Hobbsee> seb128: wasnt trying to.  thought you were picking and choosing, due to time.
[05:01] <Hobbsee> yes, exactly
[05:01] <seb128> ok, let's select
[05:01] <Rawplayer> hi
[05:01] <Hobbsee> hence i picked one that you definetly want to answer, as it gets asked a lot
[05:01] <seb128> Hobbsee: please copy there the interesting one then
[05:01] <seb128> good
[05:01] <Hobbsee> i just did.
[05:01] <seb128> please include the name :)
[05:01] <seb128> so I know who I reply to :)
[05:02] <Hobbsee> it ran away...looking...
[05:02] <Hobbsee> seb128: <daschl> QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
[05:02] <seb128> let's give a quick reply to the previous one
 seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
[05:02] <seb128>  Hobbsee Hobbsee|Remote
[05:02] <seb128> since that's a good question
[05:02] <seb128> no tutorial afaik
[05:03] <seb128> but an excellent idea
[05:03] <Hobbsee> wasnt jono writing one?  where would it be put?
[05:03] <seb128> so if anybody wants to work on one
[05:03] <dholbach> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-August/019922.html has information for getting your patch uploaded into the archive
[05:03] <daschl> i'm really lost when it comes to that topic ;)
[05:03] <dholbach> attaching a patch to a bug report is a very good start, or filing a bug at all and testing patches that come up :)
[05:03] <seb128> any contribution to lower the first step for people who want to contribute is welcome :)
[05:04] <seb128> dholbach: the issue is that "writting a patch" is not something easy for beginners
[05:04] <Dannilion> ;...;[p....,,,kkkkkk,,,,,llllll;pppp[##
[05:04] <pointwood> yeah, a tutorial would be very welcome
[05:04] <seb128> we should document how to make a patch
[05:04] <dholbach> surely not
[05:04] <Dannilion> '''iiiioip'#
[05:04] <Dannilion> #~#''''] ] ########
[05:04] <daschl> i wanted to ask that too.. because i dont know how to create a patch but i thought this is not a desktop-related problem
[05:05] <dholbach> "Patching packages!" a talk by pitti later this week
[05:05] <seb128> ACTION; jono to write some nice tutorial
[05:05] <pointwood> what info should I provide when I want to report some hardware that doesn't work? example: a printer
[05:05] <Hobbsee> seb128: he's on the phone
[05:05] <dholbach> Thu 30th Nov 18:00 UTC
[05:05] <seb128> ok
[05:05] <dholbach> pointwood: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:05] <seb128> daschl: good point, we are going to fix that :)
[05:05] <seb128> Hobbsee: next question ?
[05:05] <daschl> thanks seb
[05:05] <seb128> np
[05:06] <Hobbsee> seb128: <pikkio> QUESTION: when a bug is fixed in launchpad, will be always fixed in upstream as well?
[05:06] <seb128> no
[05:06] <seb128> pikkio: few upstream read launchpad bugs at the moment
[05:06] <seb128> if you can encourage upstreams to do so you are welcome :)
[05:06] <seb128> otherwise we need to "forward" bugs upstream
[05:06] <pikkio> ok, thanks :)
[05:06] <Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: What are priorities of Desktop Team now, apart from specs for Feisty Fawn?
[05:06] <seb128> that's a part of the bug triage work I mentionned before
[05:07] <seb128> if you are confident a bug is upstream you can file it to their bug tracker directly too
[05:07] <seb128>
[05:07] <pikkio> i'll do it :)
[05:07] <seb128> fafek2: catch up with bug flood, package new versions of desktop apps
[05:08] <dholbach> and package new exciting apps :-)
[05:08] <seb128> working on documentation etc to make easier for people to join the team
[05:08] <seb128> the specs have already enough goal to keep the core team busy for the cycle actually
[05:08] <fafek2> I mean what's the vision? How Ubuntu should look like in your opinion?
[05:08] <seb128> any specific point?
[05:09] <seb128> we are likely to have a composite manager installed by default for feisty (compiz or beryl)
[05:09] <Hobbsee> the releated question there:  <kai[sds] > QUESTION: what is the long term vision for the ubuntu-desktop beyond feisty? what are the areas you are not satisfied with yet (regarding features not bugs)?
[05:09] <seb128> and I think we might give a try to tracker
[05:09] <dholbach> we'll have exciting Telepathy bits and bobs :-)
[05:09] <seb128> and telepathy too, right
[05:09] <giskard> yeah!
[05:09] <seb128> no "long term" vision
[05:10] <jonibo> What's the advantage of tracker over beagle???
[05:10] <bhale> "the coolest new stuff"
[05:10] <seb128> we want better visual experience
[05:10] <seb128> and the best from upstream world
[05:10] <seb128> visual bling is compiz or beryl atm
[05:10] <bhale> tracker is more lightweight than beagle
[05:10] <kai[sds] > seb: so basically gnome defines that vision?
[05:10] <seb128> we will likely work on a better GDM experience too
[05:10] <seb128> kai[sds] : not only GNOME, but upstream
[05:10] <seb128> compiz or beryl are not part of GNOME
[05:11] <jonibo> bhale: due to it not being Mono?
[05:11] <seb128> tracker neither
[05:11] <bhale> jonibo: no
[05:11] <seb128> jonibo: beagle is another option
[05:11] <seb128> we have nothing decided yet
[05:11] <giskard> seb128, compiz or beryl will be handled by ubuntu-desktop?
[05:11] <seb128> and that's not going to be a quick discussion
[05:11] <seb128> better to not start it here today :)
[05:11] <seb128> giskard: ubuntu-desktop-effects
[05:12] <seb128> giskard: member of ubuntu-desktop will look at it too for pretty sure
[05:12] <giskard> ok.
[05:12] <seb128> especially if that's part of the default desktop
[05:12] <Hobbsee> seb128: *grin*
[05:12] <seb128> next :)
[05:12] <giskard> :)
[05:12] <seb128> Hobbsee: next one please :)
[05:13] <Hobbsee> QUESTION: How do you choose which program to use as default (using the compiz/beril example)?
[05:13] <seb128> hum
[05:13] <kai[sds] > but shouldn't people think about some kind of direction and not just go with the upstream flow? i mean upstream there are lots of nice innovations, but they probably dont look at the desktop as a whole
[05:13] <Hobbsee> (seb128: there are a lot of beryl/compiz related questions)
[05:13] <seb128> that's not easy to choice
[05:13] <seb128> there is our feeling about the software
[05:13] <gnomefreak> that is not really the -desktop teams products
[05:13] <seb128> how upstream is responsive
[05:13] <seb128> user feedback on it
[05:13] <seb128> etc
[05:13] <mvo> the technical comite will choose in the end AFAIK
[05:14] <jonibo> biggest question I would have about desktop effects is:  how do you avoid leaving people with old graphics card behind?
[05:14] <WebMaven> jonibo: make the effects optional.
[05:14] <seb128> fallback to metacity for such configs
[05:14] <seb128> we need to work a good way to know if effects are working fine for that though
[05:15] <seb128> it'll be one box to click to have effects or not anyway
[05:15] <Hobbsee> seb128: i think that's a wider question than just compiz/beryl, fyi - how do you decide out of all gnome apps which to include?
 that's not easy to choice
 there is our feeling about the software
[05:15] <Hobbsee> ah, missed that
 how upstream is responsive
[05:15] <seb128>  user feedback on it
[05:15] <seb128>  etc
[05:15] <Hobbsee> sorry, was scrolling for more questions
[05:15] <seb128> np
[05:15] <jonibo> But that means you are maintaining two systems: one with and one without effects.
[05:15] <seb128> lot of activity :)
[05:16] <seb128> jonibo: any other solution?
[05:16] <jonibo> no, not really.
[05:16] <seb128> we don't have neither
[05:16] <jonibo> but it's important that some people keep working on systems without effects...
[05:16] <seb128> but if you figure one we will be happy to read about it :)
[05:16] <jonibo> to make sure that they still work ok.
[05:16] <seb128> yeah
[05:16] <seb128> to be honest metacity is stable enough
[05:16] <seb128> and we don't expect lot of work on it
[05:16] <jonibo> hard to work up an interest to work on systems without effects when you can have them...
[05:16] <seb128> but we will keep shipping both
[05:17] <jonibo> good.
[05:17] <Amaranth> jonibo: Don't worry, I'm sure there will be people that don't use beryl/compiz just because they don't like it. :)
[05:17] <seb128> not true
[05:17] <Hobbsee> seb128: <elvstone> QUESTION: Is there any cooperation going on between the Kubuntu and the Ubuntu Desktop Team? I'm a soon-to-be Kubuntu laptop user.
[05:17] <seb128> some people like visual bling
[05:17] <seb128> some other don't
[05:17] <jonibo> alright... I hope that's the case.
[05:18] <seb128> Hobbsee: on the area used by both we try
[05:18] <jonibo> i think the metacity/compiz separation is quite safe... it's when more effects get integrated into the core applications that things get sluggish on older systems.
[05:18] <seb128> elvstone: on the area used by both we try
[05:18] <seb128> like pitti looked at some kubuntu printing bugs after updating cups I think
[05:19] <elvstone> seb128: okay :)
[05:19] <seb128> mvo has a look on some kubuntu specs similar to the Ubuntu ones he works on too
[05:19] <elvstone> does Kubuntu have a "Desktop Team" of its own?
[05:19] <dneary> Hi
[05:19] <dholbach> dneary: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[05:19] <Hobbsee> elvstone: kubuntu has a whole lot of people in #kubuntu-devel
[05:20] <Lure> elvstone: there is just kubuntu-team
[05:20] <apokryphos> elvstone: not specifically. Since the main difference in Kubuntu is the desktop
[05:20] <seb128> elvstone: no, "kubuntu-team" is sort of "KDE Desktop"
[05:20] <Hobbsee> elvstone: so sort of.
[05:20] <seb128> other parts are common
[05:20] <elvstone> okidok.
[05:20] <Lure> elvstone: and you can join kubuntu-team (if you want to be notified of kde bugs in launchpad)
[05:21] <elvstone> Lure: ah. okay.
[05:21] <elvstone> i really want my laptop now :) it will be in stock 1 dec.
[05:21] <seb128> Hobbsee: next?
[05:21] <pip> Hello all
[05:22] <apokryphos> elvstone: cool; be sure to join us in #kubuntu around then :)
[05:22] <Hobbsee> [03:21]  <oz__> QUESTION: are there thoughts to include a preconfigured install-server in ubuntu?
[05:22] <elvstone> apokryphos: will do.
[05:22] <pip> Hobbsee: did I miss something exciting ?
[05:22] <Hobbsee> pip: yes, but there are logs.  see the /topic for more info
[05:23] <seb128> hum
[05:23] <seb128> "install-server"?
[05:23] <seb128> that doesn't look like "DesktopTeamIsh" to me
[05:23] <Hobbsee> seb128: <DreamLost> QUESTION: do you use any automatic testing tools? Given being hard to test GUIs...
[05:23] <jackflap> so did any suse developers show up?
[05:23] <seb128> good question
[05:23] <seb128> DreamLost: not at the moment
[05:23] <jackflap> hehe
[05:23] <seb128> but that's a good remark
[05:23] <Hobbsee> jackflap: #ubuntu-classroom-chat for chat
[05:23] <seb128> and something we would be happy to set up
[05:24] <oz__> seb128: are only desktopish questions allowed now?
[05:24] <seb128> there is that "Announcing dogtail: a GUI automation and test framework"
[05:24] <somerville32> Did I miss Sebastien Bache's session?
[05:24] <seb128> which could be interesting to look at
[05:24] <Hobbsee> oz__: as that's what this team is about, yes
[05:24] <eugene> dogtail is pretty useful for automating gui testing
[05:24] <seb128> if something is interested to make that happen
[05:24] <seb128> oz__: that's the "Desktop Team" session, so better to ask desktop questions yep
[05:25] <seb128> oz__: there is plenty of non-desktop session during the week for other questions :)
[05:25] <seb128> somerville32: still doing Q and A on it
[05:25] <seb128> DreamLost: do you want to work with us to set up some automatic testing suit for the Ubuntu desktop?
[05:25] <seb128> that would be really cool :)
[05:26] <DreamLost> :) stil a litle over my league im afraid :)
[05:26] <seb128> k
[05:26] <seb128> still a good thing
[05:26] <Hobbsee> seb
[05:26] <seb128> if anybody has interest in it
[05:26] <Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: Do you develop Ubuntu administration applets?
[05:26] <seb128> let me know :)
[05:27] <seb128> fafek2: no, we use gnome-system-tools for that at the moment
[05:27] <seb128> we already had several discussion if that would be worth starting writing new tools from scratch
[05:27] <mvo> seb128: if software-properties is a administration applet, then yes, some
[05:27] <seb128> we didn't for now though
[05:27] <seb128> right, depending on what you can "administration applets"
[05:28] <seb128> package managers are administration tools too :)
[05:28] <Rawplayer> webmin?:)
[05:28] <seb128> Rawplayer: I'll not reply to that :-P
[05:28] <juliux> webmin is evil;)
[05:28] <samgee> quit
[05:28] <mherweg> yast!
[05:29] <seb128> next question
[05:29] <seb128> QUICK
[05:29] <seb128> before having the chan going out of control :p
[05:29] <N7C> hi ppls
[05:29] <Hobbsee> seb128: <bhale> QUESTION: Who does Daniel Holbach's hair?
[05:29] <seb128> bhale: I suspect it's mvo
[05:29] <seb128> but we can't say for sure
[05:29] <giskard> ahahah
[05:29] <dholbach> bhale: EEHHHHH?
[05:30] <Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: will Network-Manager ever get installed by default, probably in feisty? plus updated configuration tools, to use it?
[05:30] <seb128> pitti?
[05:30] <pitti> that's the plan
[05:30] <seb128> leks: I think it'll be by default for feisty
[05:30] <seb128> pitti will know better
[05:30] <siretart> .oO( if only nm wasn't that buggy... )
[05:30] <pitti> we will teach it to work better with manual configurations and integrate better with network-admin
[05:31] <Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: Will the brown ever be ditched, as mark formerly said once? (After the fourth release or something)  sabdfl?
[05:31] <pitti> yeah, and bug fixing is a must
[05:31] <seb128> pitti: thank you :)
[05:31] <_ion> If i may say something related to the earlier tracker vs. beagle question: tracker is not only an indexer, but it also functions as a generic metadata store. For example, if programs use tracker for tagging files, the tags are shared between all programs. Nautilus and the Gtk file dialog could hypothetically have a similar tagging widget as F-Spot has. A library could be made so that any program could easily use such widget.
[05:31] <Amaranth> _ion: We know.
[05:31] <_ion> amaranth: I'd guess the person who asked the question didn't.
[05:31] <jayteeuk> pitti: How do I get involved?  I'd love to see NM as a default install.
[05:31] <seb128> leks: you will be happy to know that Ubuntu is orange since dapper ;)
[05:31] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: we have theme teams who are working on complete themes, and if one of those meets the test of being (a) classy and (b) distinctive it could become a new default theme
[05:31] <sabdfl> leks: ^^^
[05:32] <apokryphos> leks: this is covered well in Mark's wiki page. Basically little in Ubuntu will be very static, so yeah, it may well (and has) changed over time
[05:32] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: you want to reply to leks, i'm just pasting questions :)
[05:32] <pitti> jayteeuk: test it thoroughly, report bugs, work with upstream to get them resolved
[05:32] <pitti> jayteeuk: we need all hands we can get for this
[05:32] <giskard> jayteeuk, and triage bugs ;)
[05:32] <Hobbsee> seb128: <somerville32> QUESTION: One of the SABDFL's goals for feisty was the adoption of emerging desktop technologies. What are these emerging desktop technologies and what goals have the desktop team set to align themselves with this direction?
[05:32] <apokryphos> somerville32: one of two window managers possibly. Beryl or compiz. Some information:
[05:33] <apokryphos> ubotu: beryl
[05:33] <ubotu> Beryl is a window manager that takes advantage of an OpenGL accelerated X environment. See http://forum.beryl-project.org/ - Help in #ubuntu-xgl
[05:33] <apokryphos> ubotu: compiz
[05:33] <ubotu> Compiz (compositing window manager) and XGL (X server architecture layered on top of OpenGL) - Howto at http://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager - Help in #ubuntu-xgl - See http://tinyurl.com/pw5ez for Kubuntu systems
[05:33] <seb128> fafek2: I've read your note about disk-admins on the other chan. The code was not good, but right would be nice to have a new tool for that. I might work on it that cycle, depending on busy I am. If you want to start a such project you are welcome :)
[05:33] <jayteeuk> pitti: And is there a spec available on the wiki or similar to help me understand how NM interacts with other parts of the system?
[05:33] <pitti> jayteeuk: not to my knowledge; but feel free to ping me in #ubuntu-devel about this
[05:33] <apokryphos> somerville32: what will probably happen is that for able systems (good enough graphics cards) they'll adopt one of these window managers by default. These have some cool effects, such as wobbly windows, nice animations, etc. See above pages
[05:34] <Hobbsee> seb128: [03:33]  <eliteforce> QUESTION: when will a really stable version of ubuntu be released, without xx bugs in core components (:
[05:34] <jayteeuk> pitti: OK thanks.
[05:34] <seb128> somerville32: cf discussion on compiz,beryl from some questions ago, we might have a look on beagle or tracker too, and dholbach and the telepathy team are looking on telepathy
[05:34] <seb128> eliteforce: when upstream stop writting boggus program :)
[05:35] <somerville32> :)
[05:35] <seb128> eliteforce: joke aside, we do our best to fix bugs, it's not always easy since there is lot of them
[05:35] <seb128> dapper was pretty good I think
[05:35] <seb128> edgy was a very short cycle so it has not been easy
[05:36] <seb128> anybody can make a difference here by helping fixing a bug :)
[05:36] <daschl> ill try to do so
[05:36] <daschl> :)
[05:36] <seb128> excellent
[05:37] <seb128> you can get hugs on #ubuntu-bugs for any bug you fix, just let know dholbach :)
[05:37] <daschl> so i did it with gnu/linux in general.. a friend of mine helped me with my first steps and now i want to give back to the community what i got
[05:37] <daschl> i just realized that i can talk german with dholbach ;D
[05:37] <seb128> that's the spirit :)
[05:38] <seb128> hehe
[05:38] <seb128> with mvo or pitti
[05:38] <seb128> too
[05:38] <seb128> lot of german guys around :)
[05:38] <amarillion> I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
[05:38] <juliux> daschl, see also #ubuntu-de
[05:38] <eliteforce> i think "stable" releases should be delayed sometimes, to get more bugs fixed
[05:38] <daschl> oh :D .. i just wanted to sign the code of conduct but it seems that the keyserver need some time
 QUESTION: If you install a *ubuntu-desktop metapackage, is there an easy way to remove all the dependences, so you remove the desktop environment?
[05:39] <seb128> binary2k2: apt-get remove *ubuntu-desktop
[05:39] <seb128> apt-get autoremove
[05:39] <seb128> that feature is available for apt since edgy
[05:39] <jonibo> daschl: keyserver has been problematic for the last week... i've been trying too.
[05:39] <seb128> hugs go to mvo for that one
[05:39] <fabbione> eliteforce: stable doesn't necessarely mean bug free. stable means that has a constantly predictable behaviour.. including bugs
[05:39] <leetcharmer> hail, all :D
[05:39] <davmor2> seb128 shouldn't those be sudo apt-get remove
[05:39] <elvstone> seb128: so apt-get autoremove *ubuntu-desktop?
[05:39] <seb128> eliteforce: we delayed dapper for 6 weeks
[05:39] <elvstone> seb128: or is it two commands?
[05:39] <leetcharmer> how's it goin' everyone?
[05:40] <seb128> elvstone: no, "apt-get autoremove"
[05:40] <stalefries> !hi | leetcharmer
[05:40] <ubotu> leetcharmer: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-classroom!
[05:40] <elvstone> seb128: ah. okay.
[05:40] <seb128> elvstone: it cleans everything marked as to remove
[05:40] <elvstone> seb128: alright.
[05:40] <leetcharmer> I'm here for open week :D which part are we at?? Packaging?
[05:40] <seb128> davmor2: correct, faster to not type sudo to every command on IRC though :)
[05:40] <seb128> leetcharmer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[05:40] <Amaranth> leetcharmer: desktop team. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:41] <seb128> davmor2: we are still doing question for the 15utc one since the 16utc slot was free
[05:41] <seb128> ups
[05:41] <seb128> that was for leetcharmer
[05:41] <leetcharmer> seb128, thanks :D
[05:42] <seb128> np ;)
[05:42] <leetcharmer> what did we learn so far? (if I can ask here.)
[05:42] <Hobbsee> !logs > leetcharmer
[05:42] <seb128> leetcharmer: we are doing questions and answers for one hour now, not easy to summarize
 QUESTION: What do you feel is the biggest obstacles facing the Ubuntu desktop team at this time and how do you plan to overcome these obstacles?
[05:42] <Hobbsee> seb128: were you after more questoins pasted, or will you scroll for htem?
[05:43] <seb128> Hobbsee: I just picked one
[05:43] <Hobbsee> bah, that's what i was about to paste :)
[05:43] <seb128> did you copy one I didn't notice?
[05:43] <seb128> hehe
[05:43] <Hobbsee> seb128: the other:  [03:37]  <Grishkin> QUESTION: will KDE4 , firefox 2 and any other new apps be ever backported on dapper?
[05:43] <Hobbsee> answer both :)
[05:43] <seb128> somerville32: clearly the number of bugs at the moment I would say
[05:44] <seb128> overcome: make easier for people to help and try to get upstream helping us when possible too
[05:44] <seb128> there is just too many of them for the number of people looking at them at the moment
[05:44] <seb128> we tried to work lot of extra hours, that doesn't scale
[05:44] <seb128> we need your help :)
[05:44] <gnomefreak> firefox and kde4 shouldnt be backported anywhere afaik Hobbsee
[05:44] <seb128> your being anybody who wants to give a hand
[05:44] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i didnt ask the question
[05:44] <seb128> Grishkin: no
[05:44] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i'm just pasting
[05:45] <gnomefreak> oh
[05:45] <Grishkin> seb128 , thanks
[05:45] <stani> will kde4 be ready for kubuntu feisty?
[05:45] <Hobbsee> no
[05:45] <gnomefreak> stani: not liekly
[05:45] <seb128> Grishkin: the backport team does backport apps
[05:45] <elvstone> definately not i'd say.
[05:45] <Hobbsee> stani: there's a preview in the repositories at the moment, but it wont be out in time.
[05:45] <seb128> those are not easy to backport though
[05:46] <seb128> especially if they can break other apps
[05:46] <TLE> Hey so there's a session on pacakging in about 15 min right ?
[05:46] <seb128> like firefox is used by epiphany-browser, devhelp, yelp, etc
[05:46] <RadiantFire> i was under the impression a feisty CD was going to be remastered to contain KDE4 whe it was releasd
[05:46] <seb128> TLE: correct
[05:46] <jonibo> GSmartMix?  Will it be ready for Feisty?
[05:46] <Hobbsee> ask the gsmartmix devs
[05:47] <seb128> RadiantFire: might be, that's not Ubuntu though, that would be a special milestone CD for KDE4 probably, better to ask to the kubuntu team
[05:47] <apokryphos> RadiantFire: if it's out in feisty's time, yeah. But not for dapper, almost certainly.
[05:47] <apokryphos> (i.e. kde release date is still open; it may be feisty+1 time till it's out, depending on KDE TB plan of action)
[05:48] <seb128>  QUESTION: I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
[05:48] <seb128> amarillion: what do you find hard?
[05:48] <Hobbsee> seb128: i think we're planning to have repos for it, at some point.  not sure for which releases though
[05:48] <nosse> what should I learn if I want to squash bugs? and is there an irc channel somewhere full of people wanting to help me to start?
[05:49] <dholbach> nosse: #ubuntu-bugs
[05:49] <seb128> as dholbach said
[05:49] <amarillion> for example: I joined the mailing list for a while. But the amount of bugs is completely overwhelming. So I stopped that immediately
[05:49] <dholbach> and<EMAIL_ADDRESS>of course
[05:49] <stani> A maybe small request is possible in the channel topic to mention also the current topic, eg now "Ubuntu Desktop" I know it is possible to look it up,etc... but it would be more nice.
[05:49] <amarillion> It would be nice if there was a way to say... get 10 random bugs each weak
[05:49] <nosse> thanks
[05:49] <Hobbsee> seb128: did we want to have a 10 min break between sessions?
[05:50] <seb128> Hobbsee: yep, we want
[05:50] <seb128> we will stop on that bug fixing one I think
[05:50] <seb128> thank you everybody for the questions
[05:50] <apokryphos> I quite like the KDE method of "JJ:" prefixes for bugs, which indicates Junior Jobs
[05:50] <apokryphos> k
[05:50] <jonibo> thanks for the great work, Desktop Team!!!
[05:50] <seb128> many were good one and we had interesting discussions I think
[05:50] <amarillion> apokryphos, that sounds like a nice idea
[05:51] <seb128> feel free to join #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-bugs if you have any other question
[05:51] <seb128> jonibo: thank you :)
[05:51] <jonasj> j #ubuntu-desktop
[05:51] <daschl> thank you seb128
[05:51] <jonasj> oops, sorry
[05:51] <stani> thanks
[05:51] <giskard> when packaging?
[05:51] <apokryphos> few minutes
[05:51] <seb128> amarillion: we discussed that exact thing during the conf we had recently
[05:51] <daschl> time to make tea ;D
[05:51] <seb128> amarillion: that's somewhat what the "ubuntulove" task is for
[05:51] <Stemp> thank you seb128
[05:51] <Hobbsee> time to go to bed!
[05:52] <apokryphos> 'night Hobbsee
[05:52] <giskard> thank you seb128 :)
[05:52] <Lesley> nite hobbsee
[05:52] <Hobbsee> night apokryphos
[05:52] <daschl> Hobbsee: what time is it?
[05:52] <Dannilion> Goodnight Hobbsee
[05:52] <mL_> quit
[05:52] <Hobbsee> daschl: 4am
[05:52] <seb128> amarillion: we will work in that direction anyway, making clear notes on how to start and having list of easy tasks for that
[05:52] <daschl> Hobbsee: ooh :D .. gn8
[05:52] <Hobbsee> daschl: coudlnt you see some of hte times as i pasted them with the questions?
[05:52] <seb128> Hobbsee: thank you for helping on the meeting
[05:52] <seb128> Hobbsee: you did a good work :)
[05:52] <seb128> thanks everybody
[05:52] <amarillion> seb128: thanks, I would like to see that
[05:52] <daschl> Hobbsee: i didn't remeber them
[05:52] <dholbach> thanks seb128
[05:53] <Jucato> thanks for the class
[05:53] <davmor2> thanks seb128
[05:53] <dholbach> :-)
[05:53] <javamaniac> hugs hour?
[05:53] <seb128> hi andre :)
[05:53] <fafek2> Have a nice day! Good buy!
[05:53] <fafek2> * bye!
[05:53] <andre> :)
[05:53] <Hobbsee> seb128: :)
[05:55] <elvstone> damn i really have to go shopping when i get off work in 3 min.. will be a bit late for packaging.
[05:55] <elvstone> everybody stall it! :)
[05:55] <somerville32> :D
[05:56] <Celldweller> what in the world is this room for lol... do i have to enroll
[05:56] <Celldweller> sounds fun
[05:56] <newz2000> elvstone: it's logged and there are other packaging sessions planned
[05:56] <newz2000> Celldweller: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
[05:56] <nalioth> elvstone: there will be transcripts
[05:56] <apokryphos> Celldweller: check the channel topic for all the info.
[05:57] <bettsp> Has anyone converted the Open Week calendar to iCal format? That way, people could add it to Evolution and it'd do the time zone'ing automatically
[05:57] <Jucato> nalioth: offtopic... where are the transcripts for the NWN Ubuntu classes I missed?
[05:58] <levander> Jucato: you've checked the URL in the topic?
[05:58] <TLE> bettsp: there's a google calender with appropriate timezones it can imported into evolution
[05:58] <somerville32> TLE: Is anyone keeping the google calendar up to date?
[05:58] <Jucato> levander: yeah. I was sort of looking for transcripts, not just logs, but thanks anyway :)
[05:58] <rmjb> TLE: evolution isn't respecting the timezone difference
[05:59] <TLE> somerville32: I assume it's being done automatically :: rmjb oh sorry, I wasn't aware if that
[05:59] <TLE> rmjb: well then export from google to ical, wouldn't that work ?
[06:00] <davmor2> !logs
[06:00] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[06:00] <rmjb> I have the google calendar in evolution in ical format, but it didn't shift the times
[06:00] <dholbach> Hello everybody! We'll move on to  Packaging 101  now. If you have any questions, can you PLEASE move them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and add "QUESTION:  " to them, to make them easier readable
[06:01] <dholbach> I'll have a look every now and then and answer them, if they refer to what I'm currently talking about, if not we can deal with them later.
[06:01] <dholbach> If you want to become part of the MOTU team, or help out with packaging in general, apart from knowing how to write or debug code, it's good to know the tools the distribution uses.
[06:01] <Adri2000> hi :)
[06:01] <dholbach> This session won't make you a packaging expert, but afterwards you will have heard of some things, which will make it easier to find your way around. There'll be a MOTU session on Wednesday, 15.00 UTC and Saturday on 16.00 UTC, which will cover what the MOTU team does in more detail.
[06:02] <xeruno> why isn't this channel moderated?
[06:02] <dholbach> Please run the following command, it will take some time to work in the background.
[06:02] <dholbach>     sudo apt-get install pbuilder; sudo pbuilder create
[06:02] <_tx> hi
[06:03] <dholbach> rmjb: MOTUs are the "Master of the Universe", the team of maintainers that takes care of the package in Universe and Multiverse - that's where you start as a package maintainer.
[06:03] <dholbach> rmjb: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[06:03] <dholbach> Packaging - what does that involve?
[06:03] <dholbach>  * adding enough information to the Upstream source, to make it buildable on a minimal system.
[06:03] <dholbach>  * split the installed files up into separate packages depending on the target audience
[06:03] <xeruno> dholbach, could you please moderate this channel?
[06:04] <dholbach>      ^- example everybody uses libgtk2.0-0, but not everybody has an interest in libgtk2.0-dev
[06:04] <apokryphos> with +z would be better
[06:04] <dholbach> come on guys, that's not necessary at the moment
[06:04] <dholbach> move chatter and discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[06:04] <jpetso> xeruno: it worked before, i think it's ok to trust everyone on being quiet
[06:05] <dholbach>  * make the packages work out of the box
[06:05] <dholbach>  * add copyright information, nice description, documentation, etc.
[06:05] <dholbach> Package maintenance involves far more than that, Jordan Mantha (Laser_away) will give a talk about that later today at 21.00 UTC and Thursday at 20.00 UTC.
[06:05] <dholbach> First we'll install some tools we'll need for the session:
[06:05] <dholbach>    sudo apt-get install devscripts dpkg-dev build-essential
[06:06] <_tx> what about complying programs in Ubuntu to be able to work on all the platforms (ppc, x86, and x86_64)
[06:06] <dholbach> I also prepared an example package we'll use also:
[06:06] <dholbach>    mkdir 101; cd 101; wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/packaging101.tar.gz
[06:06] <jonh_wendell> dholbach: what does pbuilder create do?
[06:06] <dholbach> jonh_wendell, _tx: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please and add "QUESTION:" to your questions
[06:06] <giskard> _tx, we have autotools for this kind of stuff (if i understand correctly your question)(btw, question on -chat)
[06:06] <nmsa> C(01:06) <@dholbach>    mkdir 101; cd 101; wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/packaging101.tar.gz
[06:07] <nmsa> sorry :)
[06:07] <dholbach> I learned most from looking at existing packages and trying to fix them, so let's take a look at the libsexy package. It's the one in feisty, I broke a bit to illustrate a few common problems you'll face in the daily work as a package maintainer or Ubuntu developer.
[06:07] <dholbach> If you untar the packaging101 tarball, you'll find the following files:
[06:07] <dholbach>   libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.diff.gz  libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc  libsexy_0.1.10.orig.tar.gz
[06:07] <_tx> Some things I write don't work well with ppc or x86 but work well on the x86_64 namely my system.
[06:08] <dholbach> Together they make the source package. The .orig.tar.gz is called the 'original upstream tarball', the '.diff.gz' file is the changes we need to do to make the package buildable and working correctly in Ubuntu. The .dsc provides meta information like checksums, etc.
[06:08] <dholbach> To unpack the source package run
[06:08] <dholbach>   dpkg-source -x libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc
[06:08] <dholbach> If you change into the directory and have a look into it, you'll find a debian/ directory, which contains the packaging information.
[06:09] <dholbach> Let's try to build the package now. You can use dpkg-buildpackage, but running debuild is easier mostly. So to run a build, simply type
[06:09] <dholbach>   debuild
[06:09] <dholbach>
[06:09] <dholbach> in the directory.
[06:09] <_tx> Question:How well do users give you feedback here?
[06:09] <dholbach> The friendly build script might now ask you to install some build dependencies, after you did that, it should be spitting out some interesting messages.
[06:10] <dholbach> _tx: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:10] <mattl> jono: all set?
[06:10] <dholbach> in my case the build is complaining (among other things) about the following:
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c: In function 'sexy_tooltip_new_with_label':
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:143: warning: implicit declaration of function 'gtk_label_new'
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:143: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:144: warning: implicit declaration of function 'gtk_label_set_markup'
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:144: warning: implicit declaration of function 'GTK_LABEL'
[06:11] <dholbach> It's a problem I added myself. :-)
[06:11] <jonh_wendell> :)
[06:11] <dholbach> We will need to patch the source to make it build again.
[06:11] <dholbach> If you have a look at debian/rules you will see that it mentions /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/simple-patchsys.mk - after working with packages for a while that it means you can use cdbs-edit-patch to add a patch. Martin Pitt (pitti) will give a separate session on how to patch packages on Thursday, 18:00 UTC.
[06:12] <dholbach> First we run     fakeroot debian/rules clean      to clean up our existing build again.
[06:12] <dholbach> next we run       cdbs-edit-patch 01-fix-gtk-breakage
[06:13] <dholbach> as I said before, pitti will explain what happens then :-)
[06:13] <pitti> correction: patching source packages will be Tuesday 18:00 and Thursday 17:00 UTC
[06:13] <dholbach> thanks pitti
[06:14] <dholbach> (Note:  cdbs-edit-patch  needs  cdbs  installed.)
[06:14] <dholbach> Once we're presented with a subshell, in a directory like /tmp/cdbs-new-patch.R29983/libsexy-0.1.10.new , we edit  libsexy/sexy-tooltip.c  with our editor of choice
[06:15] <dholbach> and add a missing     #include <gtk/gtk.h>
[06:15] <dholbach> just below the existing   #include
[06:15] <dholbach> now save the file, and hit Ctrl-D
[06:16] <dholbach> ls debian/patches/       should show our shiny new patch
[06:16] <dholbach> Now we run         debuild       again and see if we fixed the package.
[06:17] <dholbach> It looks like our attempt succeeded.
[06:18] <dholbach> ls ../*.deb    will show us the packages we made
[06:18] <dholbach> I'll answer a bunch of questions after the next step.
[06:18] <dholbach> As I explained above, part of the packaging work is trying to make sure that a package builds in a minimal environment also. Why?
[06:19] <dholbach> Because on our build daemons, a minimal system will be created for each package build to make sure it works in every, even a fresh, scenario.
[06:19] <dholbach> We will now generate a new source package with the changes we made earlier.
[06:19] <dholbach> fakeroot debian/rules clean
[06:20] <dholbach> debuild -S -sa
[06:20] <dholbach> should take us there.
[06:20] <dholbach> cd ..; sudo pbuilder build libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc      should give the pbuilder some work and we can take a look at a few questions.
[06:20] <guebay> What is the diff between debuild and dpkg-buildpackage?
 QUESTION: what's  cdbs
[06:21] <dholbach> cdbs is a collection of scripts that make packaging, especially writing debian/rules (a Makefile to automate the package build) a lot easier, by simplifiying common tasks.
 QUESTION: Will the script disregard temporary editor files when it does the patch ?
[06:22] <dholbach> TLE: I'm not sure what you mean with editor files
[06:22] <giskard> xeruno, and.. you can read the package Description: (apt-cache show cdbs)
[06:22] <giskard> dholbach, i guess .swp or file~
[06:22] <dholbach> It's better to get rid of them. They will show up in the .diff.gz and in case of binary files make the build fail.
 QUESTION: is there a short manual on how to make simple packages? like to create package for krusader from source?
[06:23] <dholbach> I will later post some links to help with packaging, but I fear that packaging will always be a bit tough in the beginning.
 QUESTIION: Will debuild automagically add all patches in the debian/patches directory
[06:24] <dholbach> amarillion: the rules in debian/rules (namely simple-patchsys.mk) takes care of that
 QUESTION/ASSERTION: It only succeeds if my name is Daniel Holback
[06:24] <giskard> ahah
[06:24] <dholbach> bettsp: I'm sorry, yes you're right. Either disregard the message or run    debuild   with  -k<your keyid>
 QUESTION: you refer to 'our build daemon' is that kind of pbuilderd ?
[06:25] <seb128> (it works too when it can't sign the package)
[06:25] <seb128> (that's just a warning)
[06:25] <bettsp> dholbach: You forgot to run the S-expression I added in the next line to fix my misspelling of your name :)
[06:25] <dholbach> proppy:  the build daemons ( https://launchpad.net/+builds ) use sbuild, which is very similar
[06:25] <dholbach> bettsp: yes, I should have said "please add"
[06:26] <dholbach> Ok, my pbuilder is 'finished' now - we'll get back to questions later again.
[06:26] <dholbach> funnily enough the build fails with:
[06:26] <dholbach> checking for PACKAGE... configure: error: Package requirements (pango >= 1.4.0, glib-2.0 >= 2.4.0, gtk+-2.0 >= 2.4.0, libxml-2.0) were not met:
[06:26] <dholbach> No package 'gtk+-2.0' found
[06:26] <dholbach> This is because libgtk2.0-dev is not installed in the minimal environment I was talking about, but how does pbuilder know what to install?
[06:27] <dholbach> if you edit   debian/control   you will find the line    Build-Depends
[06:28] <dholbach> This line indicates the packages that need to be installed to build the package correctly. We'll just add  libgtk2.0-dev
[06:28] <dholbach> after that we'll run   debuild -S  again
[06:28] <dholbach> please note that this time we don't need to run   fakeroot debian/rules clean   why?
[06:29] <proppy> (cause we build using pbuilder)
[06:29] <dholbach> because the build happened in that clean environment, not in the source dir - another good point about using pbuilder
[06:29] <dholbach> let's run      sudo pbuilder build libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc         again and see if we get it working now
 QUESTION: What all does fakeroot debian/rules clean do?
[06:30] <dholbach> levander: it runs the   clean   target of the upstream source (so whatever the upstream maintainer thought should be cleaned), plus   dh_clean  and rules you set up yourself
 QUESTION UPDATE, if I edit the source with emacs, emacs creates a temp file, will the script disregard that when it makes the diff for the patch ?
[06:31] <dholbach> TLE: I'm not sure which file you're referring to. I'm emacs illiterate - sombody else please answer. :-)
 QUESTION: How would we know from the error message mentioning 'gtk+-2.0' that the package we need is 'libgtk2.0-dev'? Is there a convention for figuring this out?
[06:32] <nmsa> j #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:32] <dholbach> daxelrod: excellent question.
[06:32] <engla> Emacs will create a sexy-tooltip.c~ backup file, and that will be included in the diff if you don't remove it
[06:32] <engla> likewise will gedit by default
[06:32] <dholbach> One answer to that is: experience with packaging. But there are also some indicators of where to look:
[06:33] <jordi> TLE: if you mean backup files, yes, the "debhelper" system is smartyt enough to not ignore them, but get rid of them when you "clean" the package.
[06:34] <dholbach> In the configure script it failed, because it tried to look up in /usr/lib/pkgconfig
[06:34] <dholbach> so if the build fails for you in pbuilder, but works if you run on your system, you can easily check that directory and find out, where and why it went wrong
[06:34] <dholbach> apt-cache search <...>   or   apt-file search <...>  can help also
[06:35] <dholbach> The pbuilder build worked for me right now, but there are still some things that are weird:
[06:36] <giskard> check configure.ac is another solution ;)
[06:36] <dholbach> If you run    dpkg -c /var/cache/pbuilder/result/libsexy-doc_*.deb  (which displays the contents of the package), you will find it's nearly empty
[06:36] <dholbach> it merely contains a couple of changelogs and copyright notices - what went wrong?
[06:37] <dholbach> If we look into the debian/ directory, you will see that it contains a couple of *.install files
[06:37] <dholbach> these files mention which directories and files are supposed to be installed into which package
[06:38] <dholbach> debian/libsexy-doc.install is empty
[06:39] <dholbach> if you run         debuild     (to build the package again) and     dh_install --list-missing   afterwards, it will present you with a list of files that were not installed into any package
[06:40] <dholbach> once we add    debian/tmp/usr/share/gtk-doc/html   to    debian/libsexy-doc.install   it will contain something
[06:40] <dholbach> now we can run     debuild binary   to not have to go through the whole procedure again, but only rebuild the packages
[06:41] <dholbach> You will find that if you run       dpkg -c libsexy-doc*.deb     again, it will contain the documentation
[06:42] <dholbach> I introduced some more bugs into the package, but given that we only have 19 minutes left, we should probably move on to some more questions.
 QUESTION: debian/libsexy-doc.install doesn't exist
[06:43] <dholbach> hum, it existed for me - anyway, it was supposed to be an empty file.
 Q: install pbuilder is still on, slow connection, will it install a new env. will get all packages from net? is doing validation on retrieved packages ... 'thnx
[06:44] <dholbach> nmsa: it's not installing all packages, but only a very minimal set, needed to build packages - cjwatson: which packages are considered by debootstrap?
[06:45] <dholbach> build-essential   will be contained in any case.
 QUESTION: Are *.install files cdbs specific?
[06:45] <dholbach> Florob: no, they're not. They're scanned by dh_install.
 QUESTION: which is the preferred format for documentation? Should you provide docs in a certain format if they aren't provided upstream?
[06:46] <dholbach> manpages are a good example of documentation that sometimes does not exist.
[06:46] <dholbach> It's always good to push it back to the upstream developers afterwards again.
[06:47] <dholbach> I don't have a link on manpages handy, but I could find you one. I have a template I always use to get started on them.
[06:47] <at2000> which packages are considered by debootstrap? the list is in the script /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/<version>
 QUESTION: is the *.install file method the correct way for one source package to have multiple binary targets? like a lib, lib-dev, -doc and so on?
[06:48] <dholbach> rmjb: some people use *.dirs files or run dh_install to debian/<binary package name> on their own, I personally prefer the .install file method
 QUESTION: how about policy on packages. I read executables on /usr/bin must have manpages.
[06:48] <dholbach> manpages are not a strict must have, but they come in very handy and users are gratefule for manpages
 QUESTION: Is it possible to have pbuilder setup to work in multiple releases concurrently?
[06:49] <dholbach> somerville32: there's a page on the MOTU wiki about that - if nobody finds it out in the next minutes, I can try after the talk
 QUESTION: can i build for any version deboostrap supports?
[06:50] <sol> Should all packages install to /usr? What's the use of /usr/local?
[06:50] <sol> Should all packages install to /usr? What's the use of /usr/local?
[06:50] <dholbach> xhaker: you can either set up a chroot for yourself (I think that's what most developers do), because that way you can test the resulting binary packages yourself, or you can have multiple differently configured pbuilders
[06:50] <gnomefreak> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto?highlight=%28pbuilder%29
[06:50] <dholbach> sol: /usr/local is for software you install yourself (like if you use ./configure && make && sudo make install)
 QUESTION: pbuilder extracts the minimal system and then downloads additional dependencies.. does it cache them? for how long? where?
[06:51] <dholbach> xhaker: yes, it does in /var/cache/pbuilder/aptcache/
[06:51] <xhaker> ;)
[06:51] <dholbach> I think it stores the packages until they're superseded by a newer version
[06:52] <dholbach> are there any other questions?
[06:52] <gnomefreak> dholbach: i grabbed the page for somerville32
[06:52] <dholbach> If you run into any other packaging related trouble and don't know where to look in the documentation, your first check could be similar packages, then ask the people on #ubuntu-motu or on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:52] <rmjb> thanks for a great session dholbach
[06:52] <proppy> dholbach: 18:50 <proppy> <proppy> QUESTION(bis): can i chroot inside a pbuilder
[06:52] <proppy>                environment to debug a packaging failure ?
[06:53] <jonh_wendell> do we have to do a clean before every debuild? even if we change just 1 char in some file?
[06:53] <engla> thanks, I learnt a lot (even though I built debs before)
[06:53] <dholbach> proppy: yes, you can       sudo pbuilder login    can help with that
[06:53] <proppy> dholbach: thx
[06:53] <cjwatson> debuild cleans for you unless you use the -nc option
[06:53] <guebay> dholbach: thumbs up :)
[06:53] <jono> ok five min  break
[06:53] <jono> till the next session
[06:53] <Jucato> yay!
[06:54] <dholbach> jonh_wendell: no you don't - you can run   debuild binary   to benefit from a previous build and just restart from wherever the build failed
[06:54] <dholbach> thanks everybody
[06:54] <amnesia> dholbach: thanks for the session, good job!
[06:54] <dholbach> see you in #ubuntu-motu or on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:54] <Florob> jono: great, now it really feels like school ;)
[06:54] <dholbach> thanks a lot
[06:54] <sol> thanks :-)
[06:54] <fernando> dholbach: thanks
[06:54] <amarillion> Thanks dholbach. That is certainly a lot of information to absorb
[06:54] <nmsa> dholbach: thank you
[06:54] <ifmy> dholbach: thanks
[06:54] <scott> no thank you dholbach
[06:54] <xhaker> see you in motu
[06:54] <DraxNS> nice class dholbach
[06:54] <somerville32> Thanks :)
[06:55] <amarillion> Florob, not unless you get homework
[06:55] <thekorn> thanks dholbach
[06:55] <jono> :P
[06:55] <alfmatos> dholbach, nice, thanks a bunch.
[06:56] <somerville32> The PBuilderHowto page is kind of confusing.
[06:56] <dholbach> sorry, I forgot:          https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation      <[06:57] <berndl> a question which has partly to do with packaging: are there plans on creating a community driven repository (with really up to date packages) like arch-linux has?
[06:58] <engla> it would be nice with not only a log, but a cleaned-up summary on the wiki pages (with links). But you know, we could all help out with that if we get to start with the log
[06:58] <engla> that way this week could be saved in a box for all
[06:58] <jono> engla, I am going to encourage people to summarise the sessions too
[06:58] <jono> would be useful
[06:58] <LaserJock> berndl: that would be the Universe and Multiverse repository
[06:58] <siretart> berndl: sort of. I have plans to make REVU, a reviewing platform doing something similar
[06:58] <engla> jono: I'm thinking we could link the schedule items to subpages
[06:59] <jono> right
[06:59] <engla> I'll help
[06:59] <jono> :)
[06:59] <nalioth> engla: jono if you like, you can use w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts
[06:59] <jono> the sessions so far have been awesome
[06:59] <jono> nalioth, :)
[07:00] <berndl> laserjock: yeah, sort of :) but i think it is much easier to get into packaging for everyone in arch than in ubuntu. but perhaps this is the reason we're here to make things easier... :)
[07:00] <elvstone> phew.
[07:00] <elvstone> ..and sneaks away for some nicotine.
[07:00] <berndl> siretart: do you have any specs online for revu?
[07:00] <jono> ok, we all set?
[07:00] <Smiffeh> Wonder if Ask Mark tomorrow will end up being productive, or just an excuse for people to quiz him on his openSuSE post.
[07:01] <nalioth> probably be a +mz kind of day
[07:01] <jono> I am going to run through some stuff for a bit and then I want to open it up to Q+A for much of the session
[07:01] <jono> hi everyone, my name is Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager at Canonical
[07:01] <jono> a lot of people get pretty confused about what exactly my job is here to do
[07:01] <siretart> berndl: well, there is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/products/revu/+spec/revu. But apart from that, I'm not aware of other specs. Feel free to submit some though.
[07:02] <jono> my main role is to help keep the wheels in the community rolling, help optimise how the community works, develop better ways of working, and be a point of contact for the community
[07:02] <gummibaerchen> what utc time is now? here it's 6o'clock
[07:02] <berndl> siretart: thanks a lot. i'll read through that...
[07:02] <juliux> gummibaerchen, date -u
[07:02] <jono> although I am employed by Canonical, I am ultimately judged by the community itself
[07:03] <jono> as an example, when I started, even though I went through four interviews over a month, I still needed to apply for ubuntu membership
[07:03] <jono> working for canonical does secure me shortcuts or anything like that, the community is the judge
[07:03] <jono> this is quite deliberate, the community is central to ubuntu and central to canonical, and we have built an incredible community together
[07:04] <jono> the fact we have 332 people in here is testement to what our community is capable of doing
[07:04] <jono> every community needs rules and governance that determines how it works
[07:04] <jono> the ubuntu community is no different
 QUESTION: (Feel free to let questions queue up until you're ready): What do you mean by "community"? Anyone who uses Ubuntu, or just those who develop it?
[07:05] <jono> I am determining community as everyone in the ubuntu ecosystem - developers, users and anyone else
[07:05] <jono> so, we have some community structures, and right in the middle is the Code of Conduct
[07:06] <jono> this document species basic standards of practice that most decent people have innately, but it sets a standard for us
[07:06] <jono> although it is just words on a wiki page, the CoC has become a powerful document and a cornerstone of our community and one that is not used to judge people, but to set levels of how we work together
[07:06] <jono> in addition to that we have the Community Council
[07:07] <jono> the Community Council (CC) is a board of nominated contributors who decde on how the community is governed
[07:07] <jono> they do NOT have to be canonical people
[07:07] <jono> in fact, mako, who is on the board is not a canonical employee
[07:07] <jono> the CC make decisions on aspects of governance in the community
[07:08] <jono> as an example, recently there has been discussion of a Leadership Code of Conduct which outlines core standards of leadership
[07:08] <jono> that document would be accepted or denied by the CC
[07:08] <jono> we have also talked about sub-councils known as team councilc
[07:08] <jono> councils
[07:09] <jono> so, as an example, the forums would have their own council - they are a large sub-community inside ubuntu, and could do with a council to decide on issues in their domain
[07:09] <jono> another thing the CC decide on is ubuntu membership
[07:09] <jono> to be an acknowledged member of the ubuntu project, we ask that contributors go before the CC to apply for membership
[07:10] <jono> the CC then decide if that person is suitable to known as a member
[07:10] <jono> more on this in the becoming an ubuntu member session later in the week
[07:10] <jono> now, our community is hugely diverse
[07:11] <jono> we have lots of different areas in which people can get involved such as art, documentation, development, packaging etc, and we actively encourage participation in these areas
[07:11] <jono> we are keen that the ubuntu community does not suffer the same misinterpreation that other communities suffer - that only technical people can be a part of it
[07:12] <jono> each of our community efforts is broken into different teams, and each team is generally expected to have a mailing list, IRC channel, wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com and maybe a forum
[07:12] <mattl> jono: what area could someone who is new to free software and new to GNU/Linux especially get involved with?
[07:12] <jono> I think people need to figure out what their skills are and decide how they can apply them
[07:13] <jono> so, if someone is a good artist, the art team would be a good choice, good communicators could join the doc or marketing teams
 QUESTION: What does beeing a member of the Ubuntu Project entail? What would my responsabilities be towards the Project? What makes this different from just beeing a user and contributor to the Ubuntu Project?
[07:13] <mattl> is there a task list, as such? a list of opportunities?
[07:13] <mako> mattl: there are more than one
[07:13] <mako> Margaret wants to hack on the kernel that ships with Ubuntu, and she has already made a few patches, but she has some questions about the format. She needs to get in touch with the kernel maintainers, and she goes to the Participate page to find the relevant contact info, there is none, and she ends up sending the unfinished patches to the ubuntu-devel list instead.
[07:13] <jono> mattl, more on that in a bit ;)
[07:13] <mako> sorry
[07:13] <mako> paste error
[07:13] <mako> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[07:13] <mako> that is the canonical(!) list
[07:14] <mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
[07:14] <jono> elvstone, being an ubuntu means that you have performed a sustained and substantial contribution to the project
[07:14] <mako> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu have other ideas
[07:14] <elvstone> jono: ack.
[07:14] <jono> elvstone, we use ubuntu membership as a method of identifying which people are good strong contributors in the project
[07:14] <mako> mattl: this is the plan to merge these together: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImprovingParticipatePage
[07:14] <jono> it is a useful yardstick for seperating out solid performers from people who just get a kick out of shouting on mailing lists
[07:14] <mako> which, funnily enough might be a good way to contribute :)
[07:15] <elvstone> jono: i see :)
 QUESTION: How has being employed by Canonical changed your ability to contribute to the Project?
[07:16] <jono> Yawner, not a huge amount - I am not going to deny that being employed by canonical means some people have more faith in you, because you have been through a pretty solid vetting process - but being employed does not buy any more rights with the community
[07:16] <Yawner> aha ok, thanks
[07:16] <jono> I fundamentally needed to prove my worth to the community, but the community has been very open to my employment
[07:17] <ivoks> hi akk
[07:17] <ivoks> err all
[07:17] <mattl> jono: the community loves you.
 QUESTION: Are there plans to make community involvement even easier?  Perhaps a GUI-based application that would gather information from launchpad that would integrate and help people get started with ease?
[07:17] <jono> mattl, :P
[07:17] <jono> leetcharmer, I have *lots* of plans
[07:17] <mattl> i was being sincere!
[07:17] <jono> about this very issue
[07:17] <jono> mattl, :)
[07:18] <leetcharmer> huzzah \0/
[07:18] <leetcharmer> tell me :D
[07:18] <jono> one of the problems with free software communities is that the process of involvement follows this approx path:
[07:18] <jono> 1. someone decides they like free software and they want to help
[07:18] <jono> 2. the person looks at a list of possible teams and ways of contributing and tries to match their skills with a team
[07:18] <jono> 3. they join the tea,m
[07:18] <jono> now, at point (3) things can get shaky
[07:18] <mattl> jono: i often have pockets of random spare time where i'm sitting with a laptop waiting for a train or a plane or something. be nice if i could use that time to do a microtask that would be useful to the community.
[07:19] <jono> in most scenarios joining a team involves being thrown in a deep end - a contribution to the team requires a fairly large investment of time and energy
[07:19] <jono> I am interested in lessening this investment and getting a win for the contributor sooner rather than later
[07:20] <jono> one plan is to have the concept of "bite size tasks" - a number of tasks for a team that are simple, trivial things to do, but offer a great first step into that team
[07:20] <leetcharmer> That sounds exciting! How can this be made possible? How do you lessen the required amount of time?
[07:20] <leetcharmer> oh! lawl, roite!
[07:20] <jono> I discussed this at the UDS and Allhands, and I am talking with some of the teams to do this in a consistant way, using tags in launchpad
[07:20] <dsas> jono: Akin to the gnome-love bugs gnome use?
[07:20] <jono> the key thing is that bitesize tasks have plenty of feedback
[07:20] <jono> dsas, similar sort of thing
[07:21] <Arby> any estimate when this will happen?
[07:21] <jono> we trialled this technique with the Jokosher community and it was very successfull
[07:21] <jono> Arby, I am hoping we can get something sorted over the next few months
[07:21] <leetcharmer> excellent!
[07:21] <jono> I am also looking into other areas such as standarding documentation and providing better optimised ways of working
[07:22] <finalbeta> I like the tasks idea, would be great for independent coders such as myself to help out when the have some time.
[07:22] <leetcharmer> So, step one is to figure a way to get bite-sized tasks ... what about the actual user experience though?  Making it user friendly enough that novices to even computers could start, right away?
[07:22] <jono> I trialled some of my ideas with the LoCo team, and it seemed to work pretty well - developing consistancy, documentation, improving team relations etc
[07:22] <jono> leetcharmer, the actual user experience is where good feedback from the team needs to come in
[07:23] <jono> it is difficult to write rules to dictate how communities work - it is instead about best practice and learning from our peers
[07:23] <mattl> jono: can you give an example of a task?
[07:23] <jono> mattl, as an example, it may be a packaging bug
[07:23] <dsas> jono: There was an effort within the desktop team to manage that, with the more experienced members tagging things with  the 'ubuntulove' and others picking up on the tasks.
[07:23] <jono> dsas, exactly, we need a consistant project way of doing this
[07:24] <jono> so yeah, expect more on this soon =P
[07:24] <leetcharmer> Example: let's say I have no development computer skills what-so-ever, except for using them and good writing skills -- I'd like to write documentation ... can I click a program, pick a category I'd like to help out -> documentation, pop in some tags and get started and upload?