[04:07] <pl0vs> WW, hi
[04:34] <WW> pl0vs: Hey there.  I was away lighting the fire.
[04:51] <pl0vs> just finished cleaning up some more pages
[04:53] <WW> I noticed!  Looks like you're keeping busy :)
[04:54] <pl0vs> there is still a lot to be done before we have really good docs
[04:56] <pl0vs> we still have lots of empty pages
[04:57] <WW> What happened to your "minimalist" Front Page?
[04:57] <pl0vs> upstream preferred a less minimalistic approach
[04:58] <pl0vs> it's not too bad, a little full but well, that;s how it is
[04:58] <WW> Ah.  I haven't check what most of the links contain, but it looks like a lot of it should be static content on the regular web page.
[04:58] <pl0vs> the philosophy is, within 3 links you are on the destination, that is hard with very little links
[04:59] <WW> So the preference is wide, shallow trees.
[04:59] <pl0vs> yes, like nautilus
[05:00] <pl0vs> i am more used to deeper trees, but i can see the logic
[05:00] <pl0vs> at least i got icons :)
[05:01] <WW> "Policies & Procedures", "Promotion & Events", "Releases"... would it make sense for these to be on the main page?
[05:01] <pl0vs> how is the faq going?
[05:02] <pl0vs> Procedures, is used by devs
[05:02] <pl0vs> Releases, has lots of docs behind it
[05:02] <WW> Well, whatever, I'm sure there are good reasons...
[05:03] <pl0vs> Promotions & Events is empty, but lulu insisted on it, we can always (re)move it later if it does not get used
[05:03] <pl0vs> no 1 reason, we needed a new page fast, that's done
[05:04] <WW> The FAQ, however, seems to have moved down the tree a bit... but I guess it is still within three clicks to get to it. :)
[05:04] <pl0vs> but it used to be twice as long
[05:04] <WW> Maybe Lulu should google for YAGNI.
[05:04] <pl0vs> the FAQ needs to be on the frontpage
[05:05] <pl0vs> i like kiss
[05:06] <WW> What's the latest on macros (or something equivalent) in ReST or moin or whatever...
[05:06] <pl0vs> it will balance out over time, i think some things will move to support, and FrontPage will shrink to nice and minimal
[05:07] <pl0vs> they *still* have not finished installing the site, it still is slow, and caches badly, so no time to code :(
[05:07] <pl0vs> ReST hast some sort of TOC but it is turned of
[05:07] <WW> I have a couple small things that I would add to the FAQ, but without some sort of TOC, the page is already too long.
[05:08] <pl0vs> i will bug lulu (again) on monday
[05:08] <pl0vs> maybe an idea is to remove some stuff, as it is also covered somewhere else
[05:08] <pl0vs> like mono, maybe a link will do
[05:09] <pl0vs> mp3 has a page as well
[05:09] <pl0vs> i think you should add (good) points, gives us more reasons for a TOC
[05:11] <pl0vs> and feel free to make remarks about the FrontPage, it is not yet finished, a wiki never is
[05:11] <pl0vs> (just as long you don't ditch all my icons)
[05:11] <WW> ...otherwise it wouldn't be a wiki! :)
[05:11] <pl0vs> :)
[05:11] <pl0vs> right!
[05:11] <pl0vs> no reason to be overly attached to some page
[05:11] <WW> Have you just been collecting icons from the web, snagging whatever looks good?
[05:12] <pl0vs> no, it is all legal
[05:12] <WW> (and is free, of course)
[05:12] <pl0vs> i spoke with jimmac and the gnome people
[05:12] <pl0vs> it is all theirs, and Aaron made one icon
[05:13] <WW> Ah, cool.
[05:13] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IconsPage
[05:13] <pl0vs> i especially like http://jimmac.musichall.cz/ikony.php3
[05:13] <pl0vs> i really like the way jimmac draws
[05:14] <pl0vs> it is my absolute favourite, better then mac kde anything (i think)
[05:14] <WW> I agree, pretty slick.
[05:15] <pl0vs> but again, feel free to make recommendations etc, just don't steel icons from apple or so ;) they get easily aggitated
[05:15] <pl0vs> and add your own off course
[05:15] <WW> Right.
[05:16] <pl0vs> what you might do is add a toc by hand in ReST
[05:17] <pl0vs> it is a pain off course but better then nothing maybe, i don't know
[05:17] <WW> I thought about doing that (like the test I put in the WikiSandBox), but a simple TableOfContents macro would make all the work instantly obsolete!
[05:17] <pl0vs> [[TableOfContents] ]  we miss you
[05:17] <WW> That's why I've been waiting to see what happens.
[05:18] <pl0vs> don't hold your breath, things move slooow
[05:19] <WW> Also, I suspect completely rewriting the FAQ in ReST might make some people unhappy.
[05:19] <pl0vs> i believe in meritocracy
[05:20] <pl0vs> you work, you choose
[05:20] <pl0vs> i only make ReST pages
[05:20] <pl0vs> if people don't like it, then they should type faster
[05:20] <pl0vs> i think you are the only one touching the FAQ atm
[05:20] <WW> And you know, the FAQ hasn't changed in quite a while... maybe it
[05:21] <WW> it's time for a shake-up.
[05:21] <pl0vs> just make it as clear as possible, maybe like: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[05:22] <pl0vs> look in the source
[05:22] <WW> I'll take a look...
[05:22] <pl0vs> if somebody complains, tell them to complain in the doc-list
[05:23] <pl0vs> and i will definately flame them for it
[10:39] <sivang> morning folks :)
[10:40] <ChrisH> sivang: moin
[10:40] <sivang> Have fun ChrishH
[10:43] <sivang> morning pl0vs
[12:43] <ChrisH> Heck. Those other customers in the supermarket behave like it's the last day they every can buy something.
[01:09] <sivang> ChrisH : this happens in germeny also ???
[01:09] <sivang> I thought this was centric to Israel only haha
[02:26] <ChrisH> hi, hornbeck :)
[02:27] <hornbeck> Hey ChrisH
[02:27] <hornbeck> I just got done with your great backlog
[02:27] <sivang> Hi JOHN!
[02:27] <sivang> what;s up?
[02:28] <ChrisH> I was pretty surprised that it still worked this morning. :)
[02:28] <hornbeck> hey sivang
[02:28] <sivang> what do you think of our newly addition to the doc team? the amazing ChrisH :) ?
[02:28] <hornbeck> I think he is great
[02:28] <ChrisH> sivang: Put down the "Applause" sign, please. :)
[02:28] <sivang> haha
[02:28] <hornbeck> sorry I have not been around
[02:28] <hornbeck> I had a hot water tank bust, had to tear out a wall to get to it, and still am not done
[02:28] <ChrisH> Any features that you would like to see in the log?
[02:28] <sivang> ah
[02:29] <hornbeck> I should be back to full speed monday
[02:29] <sivang> no problem,
[02:29] <sivang> after all it *is* the weekend
[02:29] <sivang> :)
[02:29] <hornbeck> well this crap has been going on since wednesday
[02:29] <hornbeck> :-)
[02:29] <hornbeck> one crappy weekend
[02:30] <hornbeck> does anyone else use a laptop with Ubuntu?
[02:30] <ChrisH> Yes.
[02:30] <hornbeck> does it drain your battery fast?
[02:30] <hornbeck> I have dual battery and it just goes fast
[02:30] <ChrisH> Toshiba Satellite - works well. The Toshiba Tecra at work doesn't do power management and has audio trouble though. Already told mjg59.
[02:31] <ChrisH> Didn't try it that long though. KDE on Debian Sarge worked a lot better IMHO.
[02:31] <hornbeck> I am on a dell 600m and everything works just uses alot of power
[02:31] <ChrisH> But laptops and linux is a hard issue.
[02:31] <hornbeck> yeah it is
[02:32] <sivang> hornbeck : uptill now, it has drained my battery,
[02:32] <sivang> heat up the system
[02:32] <sivang> work slow as HELLLL
[02:32] <sivang> :)
[02:32] <sivang> I reverted to debian sarge on the laptop for the meanwhile
[02:32] <hornbeck> ahh
[02:32] <sivang> But I might give another chance for Ubuntu on the laptop,
[02:32] <sivang> using only ext3 filesystem.
[02:33] <ChrisH> And I also have Sid still on this PC because I need to do debian package maintenance. There are fewer workstations on ubuntu than I wanted to have.
[02:33] <hornbeck> Hoary made my laptop heat up fast
[02:33] <sivang> there have been reports that XFS / resierfs have several issues
[02:33] <sivang> unclosed ones :)
[02:33] <sivang> which might cause excessive disk activity etc.
[02:33] <hornbeck> I have all my stuff on Ubuntu at the moment
[02:33] <sivang> ChrisH : I have only one desktop system (the strongest of them all here) with Ubuntu.
[02:33] <hornbeck> yeah I reverted to ext3 and it works alittle better
[02:33] <ChrisH> Isn't reiserfs going commercial anyway?
[02:33] <sivang> everything else is using debian
[02:34] <sivang> commercial?
[02:34] <sivang> you mean, they change thier license?
[02:34] <ChrisH> I thought I read something that reiserfs4 is no longer bsd/gpl.
[02:34] <sivang> I thought they were to stay GPL
[02:34] <hornbeck> reiserfs has two licenses
[02:34] <ChrisH> reiserfs has screwed a lot of data here. I'm staying on ext3 although xfs is really fast on the proxys.
[02:34] <hornbeck> gpl, and a I won't tell if you are using it license
[02:36] <sivang> as soon as XFS gets more stable ,
[02:36] <sivang> for a more wide range of hardware - e.g. laptops etc.
[02:36] <sivang> that would be cool.
[02:36] <sivang> I am using reiserfs for /
[02:36] <sivang> XFS for /home
[02:36] <sivang> and ext3 for /boot
[02:36] <sivang> on this desktop
[02:37] <sivang> with full fledged Ubuntu.
[02:37] <sivang> but this is a 2.6Gigs HT 512MB machine
[02:37] <sivang> with 2 7200RPM, ATA100 harddrives.
[02:37] <sivang> ubuntu nearly "killed" the dell inspiron 8200 :)
[02:37] <ChrisH> btw, why is there no german home page for ubuntu yet? ubuntulinux.de has already been registered. Could I help with that?
[02:38] <ChrisH> Ubuntu is slowly becoming famous over here.
[02:38] <sivang> ChrisH : talk to mako, he is your man. oh, and lulu ofcourse.
[02:38] <sivang> There are quite some very nice germen people already on the project, which might help you set up it
[02:38] <hornbeck> boy, you have to love coffee
[02:39] <sivang> mako deals with everything community, and lulu is the site(s) admin :)
[02:39] <sivang> I love REDMUG
[02:39] <ChrisH> mako also from canonical?
[02:39] <sivang> yes
[02:39] <ChrisH> k
[02:40] <sivang> he's the community guy
[02:41] <hornbeck> brb, reading the gnome planet site
[02:45] <sivang> hornbeck : you on black coffe there?
[02:47] <sivang> ah cappuccino is great, although bit expansive here comapred to other stuff
[02:47] <hornbeck> sivang: alittle milk, alittle suger
[02:49] <sivang> on the black? I prefer it traditional arabic black, we call it "mud" coffe here - because it sinks to the bottom of the glass and looks like mud :)
[02:49] <sivang> there is also an arabic/hindo spice there - "Hel"
[02:49] <sivang> it adds bits of bitterness and spice to the coffe
[02:49] <hornbeck> we have coffee
[02:50] <hornbeck> I never buy different coffee
[02:50] <hornbeck> folgers is what I buy
[02:51] <sivang> can you send a link ? pic ?
[02:52] <hornbeck> of the coffee?
[02:52] <sivang> yes
[02:52] <sivang> :)
[02:52] <sivang> or the package
[02:52] <hornbeck> http://www.folgers.com/
[02:53] <ChrisH> We should open #ubuntu-coffee for the morning chitchat. :)
[02:53] <hornbeck> yes
[02:54] <sivang> yeah :)
[02:56] <sivang> ah cool
[02:56] <sivang> you seen this:
[02:56] <sivang> http://www.folgers.com/blend/index.shtml
[02:58] <hornbeck> no I don't really look around coffee sites much
[03:00] <hornbeck> I am folgers french roast
[03:02] <hornbeck> well I am going to be out for a second to read email
[03:02] <hornbeck> back in about ten minutes
[03:06] <sivang> who are the other guy besides sparkes that is no longer on the doc team?
[03:09] <sivang> is John Levin still with us?
[03:10] <sivang> or was it ben edwards who signed off ?
[03:17] <hornbeck> ben edwards
[03:17] <hornbeck> he said he may start helping again when he has time
[03:18] <sivang> ok, no prob.
[03:18] <sivang> so Levin still with us?
[03:18] <sivang> you happen to have his email? (I am working on the main site docteam page)
[03:19] <hornbeck> let me see if I can pull it up real quick
[03:20] <hornbeck><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:20] <hornbeck> damn that will be logged and posted to a website
[03:21] <sivang> why is that a problem?
[03:21] <sivang> :)
[03:21] <hornbeck> damn spam spiders
[03:22] <sivang> oh shit
[03:22] <sivang> I didn't realize
[03:22] <sivang> :(
[03:22] <hornbeck> yeah
[03:22] <sivang> ChrisH : you have an idea ?
[03:22] <sivang> how we might protect ourselves ?
[03:22] <hornbeck><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:22] <sivang> oh
[03:23] <hornbeck> or hornbeck at freeshell dot org
[03:23] <sivang> we should be foastering this way of discussion URLs agreed
[03:24] <hornbeck> huh?
[03:27] <hornbeck> well guys I am off for now, have to get this hotwater tank in
[03:27] <hornbeck> I will try to get back on and get some work done later
[03:27] <sivang> c'ya !
[03:27] <hornbeck> monday starts "get the book going good" week :-)
[03:27] <hornbeck> later
[04:01] <ChrisH> sivang: if you use an email account on my server you will hardly get any spam
[04:01] <ChrisH> sivang: I'm an active in the "anti-spam scene" and have built up good measures to block off spammers.
[04:02] <ChrisH> sivang: half of my incoming emails are spam. But I only get one spam per day and 100 ham mails.
[04:03] <ChrisH> sivang: I could as well create<EMAIL_ADDRESS>:) But that's probably overkill.
[04:03] <sivang> yes it would be an overkill :)
[04:11] <sivang> hey WW
[04:15] <WW> Hi there
[04:16] <WW> If you have a minute, take a look at NewFAQTest on the wiki (and compare to FrequentlyAskedQuestions).
[04:19] <sivang> I will, later, I have to go for about 30 minutes :)
[06:16] <sivang> boy, the new FAQ by WW sure looks good, have you given it a look ChrisH ?
[06:16] <sivang> hey kevin!
[06:16] <sivang> I'm sorry I havn't been responsive to your inquiries,
[06:16] <kmulligan> greets
[06:16] <ChrisH> sivang: I have. Two broken links. But looks good otherwise.
[06:16] <ChrisH> kmulligan: Cheers.
[06:17] <kmulligan> Greets all :)
[06:17] <sivang> kmulligan : if you'd like, mail me at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>with stuff you require from me and I will follow it item by item :)
[06:17] <kmulligan> what do you mean stuff i require?
[06:20] <sivang> hmm, in relation to linuxinto primerily
[06:20] <sivang> we "talked" a bit on the wiki
[06:21] <sivang> Oh, and I thought it would be better clarify that the LinuxInto / StartingTheJoureny doesn't intend to be a practical guide,
[06:22] <sivang> I inted to discuss the background a user needs to know prior to even using a howto or a tutorial for practical benefits.
[06:22] <sivang> but, the input you provided could very well serve me on a sequal to that doc,
[06:22] <kmulligan> ah
[06:23] <sivang> in a form of something more practical or get merged into FirstSteps which is currently very very basic
[06:23] <sivang> oh
[06:27] <sivang> and I recalled you asked me something about making special keyboard keys work under X
[06:27] <sivang> I will momentarily send you a nice link,
[06:27] <sivang> sec.
[06:27] <kmulligan> i think it was just how to switch workspaces
[06:27] <kmulligan> i found it and put it on linuxintrowishes
[06:27] <kmulligan> ctrl + alt + <-- or -->
[06:28] <kmulligan> the only other thing than that was getting mouse 3/4/5 to work
[06:31] <sivang> yes,
[06:31] <sivang> well this part invloves some 2 utilities from X.
[06:31] <sivang> one in which you capture the key codes the keys on the mouse would produce,
[06:32] <sivang> the other sets up a specific program or alike to react to it,
[06:34] <kmulligan> ok
[06:34] <sivang> frankyl, I have used it mostly in XMMS as the reciving application has to implement some kind of interaction with the fireing up process from X
[06:44] <plovs> hi guys
[06:45] <ChrisH> plovs: skol
[06:46] <kmulligan> greets
[06:47] <plovs> kmulligan, so you found your way to irc?
[06:47] <kmulligan> indeed
[06:47] <plovs> nie!
[06:47] <plovs> nice!
[06:48] <kmulligan> ive used it before, just didn't know if one came loaded
[06:48] <ChrisH> Is there another place than the IRC?
[06:51] <plovs> ChrisH, nie very usefull, i love irce
[06:52] <ChrisH> IRC is easy to get addicted to.
[06:52] <sivang> hi plovs, what's up?
[06:52] <sivang> I
[06:52] <sivang> Have started to move thing into main site
[06:53] <plovs> sivang, good!
[06:53] <plovs> i am just looking at what's new, i like the FAQ
[06:53] <plovs> WW is doing a nice job
[06:54] <plovs> NewFAQTest
[06:57] <sivang> I think we should move the faq by WW to be official faq, it's very nice
[06:58] <ChrisH> Is there someone following ubuntu-doc and putting that up in the faq?
[06:58] <plovs> yes, he did a good job, looks much better, allthough it needs some more cleaning, some stuff is double in the wiki
[06:58] <ChrisH> Errr. s/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-users/
[06:58] <plovs> ChrisH, ah, ok
[06:58] <plovs> ChrisH, i read only the interisting pieces, it is too much
[06:59] <plovs> WW, hi!
[06:59] <WW> Hey there.
[06:59] <plovs> kust talkning about you
[06:59] <WW> ChrisH: I noticed.  That irclog is awesome.
[06:59] <WW> :)
[07:00] <ChrisH> WW: Bloody lurker! Thanks. :)
[07:00] <ChrisH> plovs: We need to be careful when bashing WW. He's reading us. ;)
[07:01] <plovs> ;)
[07:01] <WW> ChrisH: Nah, not lurking, just joined and then decided to see what was up.
[07:01] <sivang> WW what is your name ? (I am not sure if I know who you are)
[07:01] <plovs> ww, but, nice the new faq
[07:02] <WW> sivang: Warren, but I also use WW on the wiki.
[07:02] <sivang> ah ok
[07:06] <plovs> WW, you have no icons on your FAQ?
[07:07] <ChrisH> Does anyone know how to use the own portrait directly in the wiki? I didn't found that documented anywhere.
[07:07] <WW> No, I didn't add any icons.  Just converting it to ReST and getting rid of errors was a chore.
[07:08] <WW> But hey, it's a wiki.  Just Fix It (tm).
[07:08] <plovs> ChrisH, no, you can link it back to your homepage, but that's all
[07:08] <plovs> ChrisH, name-linking doesn't work either yet
[07:08] <plovs> in the changes page i mean
[07:09] <ChrisH> So I would still put the graphics up somewhere else. Okay.
[07:10] <plovs> you can link it (using ReST) with .. image:: IconSambaShares
[07:10] <plovs> sivang, good idea, do it
[07:10] <plovs> and then preplace IconSambaShares with the link to your head
[07:11] <ChrisH> Have to check that out.
[07:11] <plovs> ChrisH, http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#images
[07:12] <ChrisH> Thanks for the link. ReST can be tricky. :)
[07:13] <sivang> WW : what's your real name for sake of list email ? :)
[07:13] <WW> sivang: Warren Weckesser
[07:14] <sivang> WW: thanks. also have you already incorporated the main site
[07:14] <sivang> site's issues into your new wiki?
[07:14] <sivang> this is what I am talking about : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/
[07:14] <WW> sivang: I'm not sure what you mean?
[07:15] <sivang> I mean, were you intending to have your FAQ as the wiki FAQ, or a main support FAQ ?
[07:16] <WW> sivang: It isn't "my" FAQ.  i just converted the existing wiki page FrequentlyAskedQuestions to ReST, so it could have a table of contents.
[07:16] <sivang> oh ok :) sorry about the misunderstanding.
[07:17] <WW> sivang: I expect the policy would stay the same... someone from Ubuntu could grab whatever they like from the wiki faq and move it to the main site when they find something they like.
[07:17] <plovs> sivang, i still do not understand why we should have two faqs
[07:17] <sivang> plovs : me neither.
[07:17] <plovs> sivang, i think we can do that ourselves actually (move it)
[07:17] <sivang> Ok, I am going to release a post to the list, saying we want WW's
[07:17] <sivang> faq as the official one.
[07:18] <sivang> if I don't get any canonical response,
[07:18] <sivang> I am going to move it there.
[07:18] <plovs> sivang, WW, good idea! what do you think about this:
[07:18] <sivang> the current one, is *ahhem*  sh*t ?
[07:18] <plovs> sivang, agreed
[07:18] <sivang> oopst
[07:18] <sivang> this is documented on ChrisH logs...
[07:18] <sivang> :)
[07:18] <plovs> ;)
[07:18] <WW> sivang: The only problem with the current one is that the TableOfContents macro no longer works.
[07:19] <sivang> I hope nobody notices that ...
[07:19] <WW> sivang: If that macro worked, I would never have done the conversion.
[07:19] <sivang> ChrisH : could you remove this form the log? :-)
[07:19] <plovs> moving the faq to the official one, putting to the wiki: StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki
[07:19] <ChrisH> No problem if you want to have some lines removed. Just remember to send your name and expiry date, too. And btw, I don't take American Express any more.
[07:19] <sivang> but siriously, let's take a quick look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/
[07:19] <sivang> ChrisH : hahaha
[07:20] <sivang> No, I stand behind what I just said.
[07:20] <sivang> :)
[07:20] <WW> sivang: Although I do agree that the current Ubuntu FAQ need to be reorganized.
[07:20] <sivang> does anybody think a linux distro FAQ should likke like?
[07:20] <WW> It has just two categories, "Ubuntu" and "Support", which seem meaningless.
[07:21] <sivang> and i *really* don't think it is anyway comparable to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewFAQTest
[07:21] <sivang> with all do respect.
[07:21] <sivang> Oppinions people? flame? :)
[07:21] <plovs> a faq should be short Frequently does not mean every single possible question
[07:21] <sivang> that's right plovs,
[07:22] <sivang> but do you think some new people can be benefited from using http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/ as a start point?
[07:22] <plovs> off course *we* have to figure out how to do it right
[07:22] <sivang> I have a hunch they won't..
[07:22] <plovs> sivang, i have never seen it referred to in #ubuntu or the list
[07:23] <sivang> plovs : you mean nobody even noticed it ? It's linked from Ubuntu's main apge
[07:23] <sivang> page
[07:23] <WW> sivang: I agree.  A new user asks "How do I get Java to work?" , not "What are the unsupported formats and tools?"
[07:23] <plovs> but if we would incorperate WW's FAQ with this faq and link it to the wiki for missing stuff, so it would be one thing then it would be ok
[07:23] <sivang> he doesn't even KNOW what those puzzled words like "restcited format" mean in the context of Ubuntu
[07:23] <plovs> sivang, correct
[07:24] <sivang> I think it's doing a great diservice for peopole just wanting to make *something* work.
[07:24] <plovs> sivang, *I* never read it, btw until just now
[07:24] <sivang> I didn't want to say anything about it,
[07:24] <plovs> i do not like the support section, it is redundant and out-dated
[07:25] <sivang> as I was sure someone from canonical would take care of making it something more similar to the wiki's form of FAQs..
[07:25] <sivang> but now as I look it,
[07:25] <sivang> it's considered as nothing IMHO.
[07:25] <plovs> i think it is considered to be doc-team's job
[07:25] <plovs> meaning yours ;)
[07:26] <sivang> no problem. I will ad this to my TODO :)
[07:26] <sivang> so we would incorporate WW's with what already there, with links to the wiki where applicable ?
[07:27] <plovs> i would like that, ask for consensus on the list, though
[07:27] <plovs> and if WW agrees, off course
[07:27] <sivang> yes ofcourse,
[07:27] <sivang> nothing gets done on the doc team with the consensus thingy :)
[07:28] <plovs> what about a page: StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki ?
[07:28] <sivang> plovs : yes, thank you. without all sorts of notes everywhere I get lost :)
[07:29] <sivang> OfficialSite
[07:29] <plovs> and then no faq in the wiki, only one faq
[07:29] <sivang> :)
[07:29] <sivang> yes!!!
[07:29] <plovs> WW, would you like to be the FAQ-man?
[07:29] <sivang> WW : yes, since you've done such a good work, would you?
[07:30] <WW> plovs: But if you simply change the name of StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki to FrequentlyAskedQuestions, you end up with the current policy. :)  Which is fine with me.
[07:30] <plovs> well, i think we should move all the good stuff to thr 'real' faq-page and empty this one
[07:31] <WW> Ah, well, if you guys are able to edit the real FAQ, then go for it.
[07:31] <plovs> not only *we*, we are thinking about *you*
[07:31] <plovs> WW, that is
[07:32] <plovs> on the official FAQ
[07:32] <sivang> yes, that would be way cool
[07:32] <plovs> WW, the offical FAQ-representative
[07:32] <WW> plovs: Sorry, I don't think I can be FAQ-man.  I don't have the time or ambition for that kind of committment.
[07:32] <plovs> ah, ok
[07:32] <sivang> plovs : and also adopt the wiki's devide and conquer approahc
[07:33] <ChrisH> Didn't follow it. Are you guys planning to do the FAQ in Docbook or Wiki? The latter is probably hard to handle.
[07:33] <plovs> ChrisH, can we put docbook in the site?
[07:33] <plovs> if we can then docbook would be my #1 choice
[07:34] <plovs> but we need something that shows up on the web as well
[07:34] <ChrisH> I don't know if we needed to just link the XHTML output from Docbook or if it can produce Wiki language.
[07:34] <ChrisH> Is there a way to upload HTML directly instead of using the wiki?
[07:34] <plovs> ChrisH, yes
[07:34] <ChrisH> Wiki is collaborative and nice. But handling large FAQs with TOCs, links and footnotes can become ugly.
[07:35] <WW> Is docbook easy to use?  One point of the wiki FAQ is that anyone can add to it.
[07:35] <plovs> WW, the official faq should be 'locked down' the StuffToBePut.. is open, wiki style
[07:35] <ChrisH> WW: That would not work with Docbook. So it depends on we want it ugly and collaborative or neat and restrictive.
[07:36] <ChrisH> plovs: I agree. A FaqProposedUpdates wiki page would still be needed and would serve as the input for the FAQ man.
[07:36] <plovs> ChrisH, do you have some test docbook file?
[07:36] <sivang> ChrisH : The online official FAQ can be edited with an WYSIWYG editor, very slick
[07:36] <WW> ChrisH: Main ubuntu site: neat and restrictive.  Wiki FAQ: easy but occasionally messy.  (IMHO)
[07:36] <sivang> ChrisH : for the offline FAQ manual, ofcourse I support DocBook
[07:36] <ChrisH> plovs: I'm currently writing the Docbook tutorial I plan to have online in about an hour. That would perhaps give all here a better idea of how it looks.
[07:37] <plovs> ChrisH, is it in docbook?
[07:37] <ChrisH> plovs: the tutorial itself is not in docbook because I intend to wiki it.
[07:37] <ChrisH> sivang: Would be nice to have the FAQ be easily added to Gnome Help and shipped.
[07:37] <plovs> the reason i asked is, you can use html on the site
[07:38] <plovs> if we will do the official documentation in docbook then i would love to have a faq about it
[07:38] <ChrisH> plovs: sounds a little recursive ;)
[07:39] <plovs> you do perl, you must like that kind of stuff
[07:39] <plovs> ;)
[07:39] <sivang> ChrisH : yes ofcourse. I'm planning of taking all the online docs and pacakge them for yelp
[07:39] <ChrisH> plovs: well... :)
[07:39] <ChrisH> sivang: wiki2yelp?
[07:39] <sivang> ChrisH : huh?
[07:39] <WW> I'll split hairs here... I think you might need a docbook HowTo.  After all, how frequently are people asking about using docbook (not counting those crazy doc-team members :)
[07:39] <sivang> ChrisH : you mean from docutlils ?
[07:39] <plovs> ChrisH, docbook2yelp
[07:39] <ChrisH> sivang: How do you plan to do that?
[07:40] <ChrisH> sivang: Just a wild guess. I didn't even know html2yelp exists. :)
[07:40] <ChrisH> plovs: Is there such a thing?
[07:40] <plovs> yes, i *think* so let me find it, brb
[07:40] <sivang> ChrisH : well, hopefully to be assisted by the ReST --> XML script
[07:40] <sivang> then,
[07:40] <plovs> i need beagle
[07:41] <ChrisH> That's the whole trouble with Wikis. It's hard to convert it into anything but HTML.
[07:41] <plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HowDoc
[07:41] <plovs> Yelp reads DocBook. OMF files.
[07:41] <sivang> go manual over stuff the didn't go well,
[07:41] <sivang> and then packages it for scrollkeeper
[07:41] <plovs> ChrisH, a question about docbook:
[07:42] <plovs> i can do docbook2html, right?
[07:42] <sivang> ChrisH : if you use ReST on the wiki, it could be *realtively* easy to convert it to xml
[07:42] <plovs> sivang, but there is (not yet) an xml2docbook converter
[07:43] <sivang> so what were all the talking about the easy way to convert from the wiki to docbook ?
[07:43] <sivang> :)
[07:43] <sivang> I need tomboy,
[07:43] <sivang> anybody know how I can find tseng's repo?
[07:44] <plovs> :) in the faq?
[07:44] <plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreakMyUbuntu/view?searchterm=tseng
[07:44] <ChrisH> plovs: yes, docbook to html is trivial. Look at my tutorials at http://workaround.org
[07:44] <plovs> tomboy is really nice, i use it every day
[07:45] <plovs> ok, and we can post html on the site
[07:45] <plovs> that means that we should use docbook for bg things and then convert it and upload it
[07:45] <ChrisH> IMHO it would be nice to have Wiki for most pages ("who is in the doc team", "welcome to ubuntu" and "restricted formats") but use DocBook on larger articles that are potentially needed to be converted.
[07:45] <plovs> and those things can then be used with yelp
[07:45] <ChrisH> plovs: seconded
[07:45] <plovs> cool
[07:46] <plovs> sivang, find it?
[07:46] <sivang> not yet,
[07:46] <plovs> ChrisH, i intend to study docbook today (my wife is out of town, i have free time)
[07:46] <sivang> searching...
[07:47] <plovs> sivang, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreakMyUbuntu
[07:47] <plovs> ChrisH, what do you use to write docbook, emacs?
[07:47] <sivang> emacs is great at docbook
[07:47] <sivang> but I think he's using VI :)
[07:48] <ChrisH> plovs: There is a reasonably nice plugin for XML in the vim.
[07:48] <plovs> nice, i use vim
[07:48] <ChrisH> plovs: You may even want to take a look at conglomerate.
[07:48] <plovs> ChrisH, conglomerate crashed on me
[07:50] <plovs> ChrisH, article, book or set?
[07:51] <ChrisH> plovs: article
[07:51] <sivang> Darn, am in the middle of hoary upgrade
[07:51] <sivang> pkg file is locked
[07:51] <sivang> plovs : found it , thanks.
[07:51] <ChrisH> Let me put up the first part of the Wiki entry already. Looks like it could prove helpful already.
[07:52] <sivang> ChrisH : wiki entry of what? :)
[07:52] <WW> ChrisH: Where are you putting it?
[07:52] <WW> ChrisH: wait, nevermind...
[07:52] <ChrisH> sivang: DocBook
[07:52] <plovs> ChrisH, that would be nice
[07:52] <sivang> ChrisH : oh, it's finished ?
[07:53] <ChrisH> sivang: Nearly. The first part would allow everyone here to understand the abbreviations and get a "hello world" document compiled.
[07:54] <plovs> i'll write a doc, and publish it to the wiki, see if it's as good as they say it is ;)
[07:54] <sivang> plovs : about what?
[07:55] <plovs> as a test, probably about something important
[07:55] <plovs> about icons, i think
[07:56] <sivang> ChrisH : I would also appriciate a tutorial for doing docbook in VIM, using "reasonably nice plugin for XML in the vim."
[07:56] <sivang> :)
[07:56] <sivang> if it's not already how you're tutorial is put , as a vim guy
[07:59] <ChrisH> sivang: No problem. :) already here in draft form
[07:59] <ChrisH> Can anybody tell me how to use something like <pre>...</pre> in ReST?
[08:00] <ChrisH> Ah... literal block I guess. "::"
[08:00] <sivang> plovs is our rest expert
[08:00] <sivang> :)
[08:01] <sivang> I have yet to do a single doc in it,
[08:01] <sivang> I might as well start with DocBook altogether
[08:25] <ChrisH> Anyone reading it? :)
[08:25] <WW> ChrisH: Looks like a nice start.  For those of us too lazy to install everything right away, is it possible to add a link to the HTML version of you Hello World example?
[08:26] <sivang> looks very nice
[08:26] <ChrisH> WW: Sure. Where shall I put it?
[08:26] <ChrisH> sivang: tnx
[08:27] <WW> ChrisH: Can you make 'test.html' a link right there in the page?
[08:27] <ChrisH> WW: To another wiki page?
[08:27] <WW> ChrisH: I don't know.  Is it possible to upload the html file to the wiki?
[08:29] <WW> I haven't tried uploading a complete html file to the wiki... don't know if you can do that.  Anybody?
[08:29] <sivang> hoary is crawling into my system.....
[08:29] <ChrisH> WW: I have put it on workaround.org - who cares
[08:29] <sivang> WW : there's an option when you edit main site pages
[08:35] <WW> ChrisH: Thanks.  I'll be using your page when I start experimenting with DocBook for a project of mine.
[08:36] <WW> Time to go...  but who knows, maybe I'll be lurking...  :)
[08:36] <ChrisH> WW: DocBook has own tags for generating FAQs. Should I provide an example for out internal use?
[08:36] <ChrisH> *our
[08:36] <sivang> arggh
[08:37] <ChrisH> sivang: okay, okay, I won't, I promise!
[08:37] <sivang> hoary started to break things for me, I'm headed to a reboot :)
[08:37] <WW> ChrisH: That would be interesting to see.
[08:37] <pl0vs> ok, back online
[08:37] <sivang> that wasn't intented for you ChrisH :)
[08:37] <WW> Later, y'all.
[08:37] <ChrisH> sivang: I know. :)
[08:37] <ChrisH> WW: l8r
[08:37] <pl0vs> see ya WW
[08:37] <sivang> I arrgheed at hoary breaking my mozilla-firefox
[08:37] <sivang> C'ya WW
[08:38] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nice to see that the log now has autoscroll as well. Super!
[08:38] <ChrisH> pl0vs: for the lazy of us :)
[08:39] <pl0vs> sivang, you are going to the conference?
[08:41] <sivang> I wish, I am not sure yet for the travel expanses if I can handle them,
[08:41] <sivang> but I am checking possibilities.
[08:42] <ChrisH> Which conference is it?
[08:42] <pl0vs> well, if you go say hi from the doc-team
[08:43] <sivang> ofcourse!
[08:43] <sivang> I would represent us
[08:43] <sivang> there.
[08:43] <pl0vs> ChrisH, you can escape wiki names with ! like  LaTeX
[08:44] <ChrisH> pl0vs: so they don't become links?
[08:45] <pl0vs> yes
[08:46] <ChrisH> pl0vs: ic
[08:56] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it is easier if commands (xslt etc) are in a box as well, beginning with "bash:~$ " BeagleInstallHowto has nice layout
[08:57] <pl0vs> easier to copy/paste
[08:57] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Okay... I will just finish it. (A dozen more lines.) Then I'll clean it up.
[08:57] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Your original text is still there (commented out) in case you want it included.
[08:59] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nono, yours is much better (despite the fact that it does not have *any* icons whatsover)
[08:59] <sivang> ChrisH : there is going to be a hoary conference in spain on december
[09:00] <pl0vs> ChrisH, i tried it, i'm inpressed
[09:00] <sivang> ChrisH : It would be 2 weeks of hacking, talks etc
[09:00] <pl0vs> now i'll copy it to thw wiki
[09:00] <pl0vs> sivang, sounds really nice
[09:01] <ChrisH> sivang: I didn't know there was an Ubuntu conference. :)
[09:01] <sivang> what are you working on now fellas ?
[09:01] <sivang> ChrisH : all canonical employees are going to be there, together with a bunch of interested folks and related
[09:01] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it's on the frontpage of ubuntulinux and in the wiki in Conference
[09:02] <ChrisH> sivang: Two weeks? That's a long time. Is there so much to discuss?
[09:02] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it's in spain, it's warm, has beaches...
[09:03] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I know spain well. But in December it will hardly be that warm. Northern hemisphere. :)
[09:03] <sivang> ChrisH : I am not sure, but I'm sure mako would have better answers about this, just write to him.
[09:05] <ChrisH> sivang: Not that much on the Agenda, yet.
[09:05] <pl0vs> ChrisH,  still 20+ in the south, atm
[09:05] <pl0vs> btw checkout: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
[09:05] <sivang> he said on the conference page that he would wlecome any questions etc.
[09:05] <pl0vs> i think the ubuntu guys just want to meet, they might never have met before
[09:05] <ChrisH> sivang: I can surely not attend. Both work and family won't allow that. I was very surprised that last year my boss paid the travel for a coworker and me to the LinuxTag.
[09:06] <sivang> ChrisH : what company do you work for ?
[09:06] <ChrisH> sivang: www.otto.com / www.otto.de
[09:06] <pl0vs> really? my mum buys there
[09:07] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I have been to the CCCongress for five years until 1999. But with the time there was less hacking (in the productive meaning) but more pr0n leeching. :(
[09:07] <pl0vs> ChrisH,  at otto or linuxtag ?
[09:07] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm in the network security team there. Usually it's fun. But out management is laying off 25% of all employees. :(
[09:08] <ChrisH> pl0vs: LinuxTag. :)
[09:08] <pl0vs> management, firing people and wanting more work done in the same memo!
[09:08] <pl0vs> bah!
[09:09] <pl0vs> on a more positive note, docbook works great!
[09:09] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Currently no one is doing serious work there. Everybody is waiting who will get fired. We will know that in 03/2005. Gnarr.
[09:09] <pl0vs> i put the html output in the wiki, and it renders ok
[09:09] <sivang> pl0vs : have you followed ChrisH new tutorial?
[09:10] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Cool. And with the stylesheet it looks decent. :)
[09:10] <pl0vs> sivang, yes, test.html: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml , renders fine
[09:10] <pl0vs> which means we could write real docs in docbook and then use xslt and put it in the site
[09:11] <pl0vs> ChrisH, can you add a links section? with the docbook site etc
[09:11] <ChrisH> pl0vs: just that people needed to know that the source is docbook so they would not start changing the html code
[09:11] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes.
[09:12] <ChrisH> At first I found that DocBook/XML was a bad joke. Mostly because most of the programs I got recommended did not work at all. Where couldn't there just be a "do this and that" and a few pointers?
[09:12] <pl0vs> we would put that stuff not in the wiki but in the support section
[09:12] <ChrisH> pl0vs: (excuse my ignorance) support section?
[09:13] <ChrisH> Great advantage of DocBook: we could have it checked in and out in CVS or SVN because it's plain text.
[09:13] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support the 'official' documentation
[09:14] <pl0vs> hornbeck is setting up svn/cvs for us (doc-team)
[09:14] <pl0vs> Fedora uses it as well, they have graet looking docs
[09:14] <pl0vs> with one style-sheet it all looks the same, really good
[09:15] <ChrisH> Who has permissions to edit the support page? Only canonical?
[09:16] <pl0vs> doc-team as well, meaning we do
[09:16] <ChrisH> Perhaps one day I qualify for edit access, too. No hurry. :)
[09:17] <pl0vs> you already have edit-access
[09:17] <pl0vs> everybody has
[09:17] <ChrisH> pl0vs: not for the support area
[09:17] <pl0vs> it's just not common knowledge
[09:18] <sivang> you have
[09:18] <sivang> yes, everybody has
[09:18] <sivang> :)
[09:18] <ChrisH> Do you see an "Edit" button at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support ? Or do I need to use the "secret edit link"?
[09:19] <pl0vs> go to documentation/howto's
[09:19] <sivang> you need to create an account
[09:19] <sivang> and then log in
[09:20] <ChrisH> There I get an edit link. Just not for the parent pages it seems.
[09:20] <pl0vs> no only admin can edit those
[09:20] <sivang> after you logged in,
[09:21] <ChrisH> canonical probably does not want a kid to screw the main support page.
[09:26] <sivang> sec, checking
[09:28] <sivang> I seem to be able to edit all support pages :)
[09:28] <sivang> which page do you want to edit?
[09:28] <sivang> Tell me what you want to edit and I will add it, ChrisH
[09:29] <ChrisH> Nothing concrete. Just looking for a place to insert WW's Docbookified FAQ later.
[09:30] <sivang> strange.
[09:30] <sivang> I could edit those last night
[09:30] <sivang> it seems locked now
[09:30] <sivang> my "edit" bar is gone!!!
[09:30] <sivang> maybe someone saw how I referenced the current official faq ? :)
[09:31] <ChrisH> sivang: Thanks a lot, sivang. You screwed for all of us! ;)
[09:32] <sivang> ahh, found it
[09:32] <sivang> it was all my human error
[09:32] <pl0vs> :)
[09:32] <sivang> :)
[09:32] <sivang> this is how to do it
[09:32] <sivang> :
[09:33] <sivang> from https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/
[09:33] <sivang> click on the specific square you're interested in,
[09:33] <sivang> then you can edit it
[09:33] <sivang> you can even add a new item to it
[09:38] <pl0vs> ChrisH, and it works great with vim as well
[09:38] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Did you install the xmledit plugin?
[09:39] <pl0vs> ChrisH, yes
[09:40] <pl0vs> ChrisH, would a page like: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BitTorrent be possible with docbook?
[09:40] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Why not? What is special about it?
[09:41] <pl0vs> code, looks like code, a note is a note etc?
[09:41] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Look at http://workaround.org/articles/ispmail-sarge/
[09:42] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I used my own style sheet. But basically there are notes (even different ones: warnings, important, notices) and terminal input.
[09:43] <pl0vs> i read that one already ;) this is nice stuff indeed
[09:44] <pl0vs> they have good looking stuff: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
[09:44] <ChrisH> I'm currently putting together this extra page: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
[09:44] <pl0vs> they also use docbook i noticed
[09:45] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nice
[09:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes
[09:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: And it fits nicely into the rest of my workaround.org pages
[09:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: So it does not necessarily need to look as ugly as the debian documentation. :P
[09:46] <pl0vs> that is what i was wondering about, redhat looks great but is not high quality, debian the other way around
[09:47] <pl0vs> i would like to be a bit of both
[09:47] <pl0vs> No, the other bit!
[09:47] <ChrisH> Documentation is fine. But ugly documentation is not funny to read.
[09:47] <sivang> ChrisH : it looks again, superb
[09:47] <sivang> I wanna do DocBook also, waiting for my mentor to finish up with his first student :)
[09:47] <pl0vs> ChrisH, will you explain the meaning of the tags somewhere? or is there a good doc somewhere?
[09:48] <ChrisH> pl0vs: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
[09:48] <pl0vs> eg keywordset
[09:48] <ChrisH> pl0vs: incomplete though. I'll include links to the "real" docs
[09:48] <pl0vs> reading http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference atm
[09:48] <ChrisH> This is the real link: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
[09:49] <pl0vs> understand everything except keywordset
[09:50] <ChrisH> pl0vs: why?
[09:50] <pl0vs> what is it used for?
[09:50] <pl0vs> keywordset
[09:51] <ChrisH> pl0vs: In HTML the keywords in the header will be generated from that.
[09:51] <pl0vs> ok
[09:52] <pl0vs> btw you have a space too many before all the lines in the example in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
[09:52] <pl0vs> it doesn't parse, until you remove the space
[09:53] <ChrisH> pl0vs: haven't saved for a while :)
[09:53] <pl0vs> ok
[09:58] <pl0vs> sivang, where you working on the debian documentation or only horbeck?
[09:59] <sivang> pl0vs : hornbeck and the other new guy, I just suggested we should try and put in shape already shipping docs
[09:59] <sivang> and give back to debian on colliding areas
[10:00] <ChrisH> I'm done with http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference - does it look reasonable to you?
[10:00] <pl0vs> looks nice
[10:00] <pl0vs> i reloaded the page already
[10:01] <pl0vs> i am still missing notes, definitions
[10:02] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Notes are like <important>...
[10:02] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I'll add them.
[10:03] <pl0vs> ChrisH, see http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/s1-xml-admon.html
[10:03] <pl0vs> or can we just use that?
[10:04] <ChrisH> pl0vs: done... what else?
[10:05] <sivang> ChrisH : which pages did you want to go on the front support page ? new xml howto and ?
[10:05] <pl0vs> maybe better like this:
Body of text goes here.</para></note>
[10:06] <pl0vs> ?
[10:06] <ChrisH> pl0vs: done :)
[10:06] <ChrisH> sivang: uh?
[10:06] <pl0vs> i can't reload this fast!
[10:06] <sivang> ChrisH : wanted to link from "latest" howtos to your new docbook one
[10:07] <pl0vs> niiice!
[10:07] <ChrisH> I start to get a hang on ReST markup. :)
[10:08] <sivang> nice page , I'm stunned
[10:09] <ChrisH> I would write more but I have no idea of dragons really. :)
[10:11] <pl0vs> now we need a list of stuff they want to be done for yelp
[10:12] <sivang> pl0vs : we need to first see if the already shipping stuff is current, and make a new start page for the first yelp doc that is presented when you fire it up
[10:12] <ChrisH> pl0vs: to convert docbook to yelp?
[10:12] <sivang> yelp is using docbook,
[10:12] <sivang> just with some custom XSLT
[10:12] <ChrisH> natively?
[10:12] <sivang> yes
[10:12] <ChrisH> ah, ok
[10:12] <sivang> :)
[10:13] <pl0vs> yelp uses docbook imo
[10:13] <sivang> you can just check out some gnom
[10:13] <sivang> docs sources
[10:13] <sivang> for example, the controversial gnome2-user-guide
[10:13] <sivang> :)
[10:13] <pl0vs> sivang,  how, what from where?
[10:13] <pl0vs> using cvs?
[10:13] <sivang> pl0vs : also,
[10:14] <pl0vs> howto?
[10:14] <sivang> and you can just look it in your system - although that would be the 2.6 docs afaik
[10:14] <sivang> lemme see where is the scrollkeeper conf files..
[10:15] <sivang> or where are the actual docbook file for this manual.
[10:17] <sivang> /usr/share/gnome/help/user-guide/C/user-guide.xml
[10:18] <sivang> I am not sure if XSLT is the right word for what it uses,
[10:18] <sivang> it's standard DocBOok,
[10:18] <sivang> but yelp has it's own way of rendering stuff
[10:18] <sivang> XSLT defines the way the resulting page looks?
[10:20] <ChrisH> There is probably an XSLT to transform the DocBook/XML into yelp format.
[10:20] <ChrisH> Same procedure as with html
[10:20] <sivang> XSLT defines in which images/ rendering the resulting page should use?
[10:21] <sivang> for example, if a "note" should use once icon in standard docbook, and another on yelp's format?
[10:21] <ChrisH> XML + XSLT => output format
[10:22] <ChrisH> You can toggle whether icons are used or just text.
[10:22] <ChrisH> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Icons.html#d0e4990
[10:38] <ChrisH> this is a docbook FAQ: http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html
[10:38] <ChrisH> feedback?
[10:39] <ChrisH> (Still needs some nice stylesheet of course. Just plain HTML.)
[10:42] <sivang> nice
[10:42] <sivang> we should use the main site's style sheet
[10:42] <pl0vs> looks good, what does the docbook source look like?
[10:42] <sivang> ChrisH, anyway I'm starting with your docbook tutorial, does it say there how to use vim for docbook?
[10:43] <ChrisH> sivang: yup
[10:43] <sivang> k, great
[10:43] <ChrisH> pl0vs: see workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.xml
[10:44] <ChrisH> pl0vs: By the way... the xmledit plugin has nice features. Enter "<para>>" in insert mode. :)
[10:44] <pl0vs> ChrisH, i don't think so...
[10:44] <ChrisH> pl0vs: ?
[10:45] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nice para>>
[10:45] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it gives text only
[10:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Use the source, Luke. :)
[10:45] <pl0vs> duh
[10:46] <pl0vs> very nice,maybe this is a better solution for longer docs indeed
[10:47] <ChrisH> pl0vs: especially the automatic generation of the question list with correct links... you had to do that all manually in the wiki
[10:47] <pl0vs> yes, so we only need a good stylesheet then
[10:47] <ChrisH> Should I continue converting the current FAQ?
[10:47] <ChrisH> pl0vs: If you just import the HTML into the wiki? Doesn't it use the stylesheet by default?
[10:48] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Or how did you do it last hour?
[10:48] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml does, but we should test it with question/answer and note etc
[10:49] <ChrisH> pl0vs: would you upload the faq test page?
[10:49] <pl0vs> working on it as we speak
[10:49] <ChrisH> Very good, Sir.
[10:51] <pl0vs> no, doesn't work
[10:51] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
[10:51] <ChrisH> But it's plain HTML? What did you do differently?
[10:53] <pl0vs> i'll put in the test again, and then the faq again
[10:57] <ChrisH> Tricky... what would we do with FAQ entries that just point to other Wiki pages? That would not work in the Gnome Help.
[11:00] <pl0vs> it does not work anymore ???
[11:00] <ChrisH> strange
[11:04] <ChrisH> I'm not that sure that having a heavily wiki-linked FAQ is a good thing to be put into Docbook. Opinions?
[11:06] <pl0vs> it works... human error ....
[11:07] <pl0vs> why do the links not work?
[11:07] <ChrisH> they do here
[11:08] <pl0vs> ah, ok so the faq should be self-supportive for using it in gnome-help
[11:08] <pl0vs> well, then we have to 1) put those pages in help as well or 2) remove the links eg answer in the faq
[11:09] <pl0vs> btw it lokks like ... not so good https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
[11:09] <ChrisH> Putting the whole wiki in the help? Hmmm. Don't like the idea.
[11:09] <pl0vs> well, the linked pages, the top 10
[11:11] <ChrisH> Perhaps we should find a consensus on where the FAQ will be. If it's just a link farm to other Wiki pages then it would make hardly any sense outside of the wiki.
[11:12] <pl0vs> if it needs to be in gnome-help then that won't do...
[11:12] <pl0vs> i'll write to the mailinglist
[11:12] <ChrisH> good
[11:13] <ChrisH> IMHO an FAQ should be self-contained without too many external links
[11:16] <pl0vs> off=course wiki-links can be just external links, that would work: eg https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
[11:16] <ChrisH> I did it like that before. If that's what "people" want... okay.
[11:19] <pl0vs> there will always be outside links like: "for more info on working with docbook see: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook"
[11:19] <pl0vs> or does that look bad
[11:19] <pl0vs> does it work in yelp btw? external links?
[11:19] <ChrisH> Good question.
[11:20] <ChrisH> As i said... I'd always try to make it self-contained.
[11:21] <pl0vs> it does work
[11:21] <pl0vs> it has an outside link to the gpl atm
[11:21] <ChrisH> But is it what we want?
[11:22] <pl0vs> maybe not, it kindoff defeats the whole purpose of putting it in yelp
[11:22] <pl0vs> if you have outside links, you might just ass well use a web-browser
[11:22] <pl0vs> for the whole thing
[11:23] <ChrisH> ...and use the Wiki FAQ :)
[11:23] <pl0vs> right... i'll put it in the question to the list
[11:23] <ChrisH> k
[11:25] <pl0vs> ok, sent
[11:27] <pl0vs> there is something about writing yelp stuff in yelp: Writing ScrollKeeper OMF Files
[11:27] <pl0vs> it looks like docbook, to my untrained eye
[11:28] <pl0vs> ChrisH, are yo urunning ubuntu? atm
[11:29] <ChrisH> pl0vs: not on this PC - but on the laptop
[11:30] <pl0vs> i have this funny thing in yelp, in system - synaptic docs, they show up in spanish?
[11:30] <ChrisH> oops?
[11:31] <pl0vs> that's too bad since it looks like good documentation, better then we have in the wiki
[11:33] <ChrisH> i'll check
[11:34] <pl0vs> this yelp is quite nice!
[11:35] <pl0vs> it even has the python tutorial
[11:36] <ChrisH> my docs are in english
[11:36] <ChrisH> (synaptic)
[11:37] <pl0vs> then maybe it is because i am running remote X through knoppix etc
[11:38] <pl0vs> you see how nice it looks in yelp, with icons and all for notes and warnings?
[11:39] <ChrisH> pl0vs: and still docbook :)
[11:40] <ChrisH> pl0vs: do you know if there is a wysiwyg editor for gnome help documents? I know there is an XSLT but I wonder how developers write their docs
[11:41] <pl0vs> the redhat guys use (and advise to use) emacs
[11:41] <sivang> ChrisH : they use emacs :)
[11:42] <ChrisH> Eeek. I quit!
[11:43] <pl0vs> sivang, do you know where the yelp "home-page" is? on my computer i mean, the first page yelp opens
[11:43] <pl0vs> ChrisH, we can advise vim, for ubuntu
[11:45] <pl0vs> what if we try to make yelp open on first boot, showing the ubuntu-faq, that would be a great help i think
[11:47] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Isn't the link in the panel pointing to it?
[11:47] <sivang> I think we would be better off letting the user choose when he wants "help!" :)
[11:47] <sivang> This could create much annoyance in some larger, non newbie, already linux familiar audience of Ubuntu.
[11:50] <sivang> what have you fine fellows doc team of me been working on my 1hr absence? more docbook stuff?
[11:50] <pl0vs> but only on first bootup, like the kde config wizard
[11:50] <pl0vs> not a good idea?
[11:50] <pl0vs> sivang, only docbook here
[11:50] <sivang> k
[11:51] <sivang> ChrisH : I am sure we could use some wysiwyg editor and have it render yelp's XSLT on the fly , what do you say?
[11:51] <sivang> (we need not stick to emacs as the gnome doc people)
[11:52] <ChrisH> sivang: You want to quickly write an editor for yelp? Nice.
[11:52] <ChrisH> sivang: Done already? ;)
[11:52] <sivang> nono :)
[11:53] <sivang> I thought we could just have some WYSIWYG xml editor use yelp's XSLT and render it for us as a gui editor..
[11:53] <sivang> it isn't possible ?
[11:53] <ChrisH> Wouldn't know how.
[11:54] <sivang> anyway, back again to your DocBook howto
[11:56] <sivang> do you think it would be easy to convert /wiki/StartingTheJourney to docbook? it
[11:56] <sivang> plain MoinMoin markup
[11:56] <pl0vs> ChrisH, if you make an alias between ChristophHaas and Christoph Haas then  your name becomes clickable
[11:57] <ChrisH> sivang: trivial
[11:57] <ChrisH> pl0vs: you mean in the signature? how?
[11:58] <ChrisH> sivang: why not try it yourself after you have read the mini-tutorial?
[11:58] <sivang> this is what I intend to do :)
[11:58] <pl0vs> in your homepage: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ChristophHaas add an alias "Christoph Haas"
[11:58] <ChrisH> sivang: I assume your document is quite complete...
[11:59] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Hmmm.  :)


[13:07]  * krokus is away (Linux is culture.)
[13:09]  * Faux smacks krokus.
[17:30] <dens2204> hi people
[17:30] <dens2204> help me setting java plz
[17:31] <dens2204>   i was install mvn
[19:50]  * krokus is away (Linux is culture.)


[00:00] <bazhang> wht cms plz
[00:00] <k1l> *clear (man, i think i should not multitask right now :) )
[00:00] <bazhang> hehe
[00:16] <bazhang> k1l, he seems to just help with running an OS on the pi, and not really ubuntu at all
[01:07] <bazhang> java is a virus
[01:07] <k1l> everything is spyware
[01:08] <k1l> cant wait for gnu hurd to rescue us all
[01:08] <bazhang> you put spyware in that message!
[01:08] <bazhang> not going to read it!
[01:08] <k1l> http://www.xkcd.com/1508/   ;p
[01:08] <bazhang> @random emacsvirus HURD
[01:09] <bazhang> yeah!
[01:12] <valorie> lol


[01:14] <MarkDude> bkerensa, pm me about the parties you know about :)
[07:04] <bkerensa> Thanks nathwill for amazing steak dinner
[16:17] <bkerensa> nathwill: great steak last night... it was chill
[16:17] <bkerensa> nathwill: and I got another minipc from another maker coming soon so we will have to do again sometime
[16:17] <bkerensa> :D
[16:54] <nathwill> oh yeah?
[16:54] <nathwill> yeah, anytime
[17:04] <bkerensa> nathwill: https://www.miniand.com/products/MiniX%20TV%20Box%20H24#specifications
[17:05] <bkerensa> yep that one is shipping this weekend so I should have it next week :)
[17:05] <nathwill> crazy
[17:05] <nathwill> i'm kind of pumped about all these low-power, low-spec devices
[17:05] <nathwill> especially when they're low-cost to boot :D
[17:05] <bkerensa> nathwill: well I guess you keep helping you will have more right? :P
[17:05] <bkerensa> I cant possibly keep them all
[17:06] <nathwill> hehehe
[17:06] <bkerensa> anyways I better get ready I have to go run errands and play tour guide for someone who just landed from India
[17:06] <bkerensa> :D
[17:06] <nathwill> have fun
[20:06] <tgm4883> bk	erensa ping
[20:06] <tgm4883> bkerensa^
[20:06] <tgm4883> dumb tablet :/
[20:23] <bkerensa> tgm4883: yes
[20:23] <bkerensa> slangasek / kees / wendar ... if you have availability were trying to get a Ubuntu Hour together for next Friday since we will have lots of Ubuntu Folk and Canonical folk coming for OSCON https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-or/2012-July/000627.html
[20:24] <bkerensa> ^ adam_g bdmurray philipballew_
[20:25] <bkerensa> nathwill: your ip is listed in sorbs
[20:25] <bkerensa> =/
[20:25] <bdmurray> next Friday is Batman!
[20:26] <bkerensa> bdmurray: wat? :P the new one
[20:28] <bkerensa> nathwill: disregard... your vps is blocking Gmail because its listed in SORBS :P
[20:36] <nathwill> boo gmail
[20:37] <nathwill> also, boo sorbs
[20:38] <wendar> bkerensa: I'll be around on Friday
[21:25] <nathwill> bkerensa, i temporarily disabled the sorbs list
[21:25] <nathwill> i don't really want to block email from gmail
[21:26] <slangasek> bkerensa: I'm in Redmond that day ;P
[21:27] <nathwill> slangasek, you gonna set MSFT straight on UEFI?
[21:28] <slangasek> dunno about that
[21:28] <slangasek> but we should probably be on the same page by the end of the week ;)
[21:31] <nathwill> haha. g'luck, hope things go smoothly
[21:32] <nathwill> qq while you're about... you know if Ubuntu still makes non-pae images? would like to install 12.04 on a vortex86 (i586), but the 386 image won't work as the cpu doesn't support pae
[21:32] <nathwill> ^slangasek
[21:34] <slangasek> nathwill: 12.04 doesn't include any non-pae images for Ubuntu itself; I think Lubuntu shipped non-PAE though
[21:34] <slangasek> and you can install 11.10 Ubuntu and upgrade
[21:40] <nathwill> slangasek, ok, thanks :)


[00:07] <paxcoder> wow, there's a twist
[10:15] <slashtom> morning airurando
[10:15] <slashtom> how was the geeknic?
[10:15] <airurando> hi slashtom
[10:15] <airurando> twas nice
[10:15] <airurando> short though
[10:15] <airurando> and small
[10:16] <slashtom> good good, and good job you had it on saturday
[10:16] <airurando> ha ha
[10:16] <airurando> you are soooo right
[10:17] <airurando> very lucky, although I do feel vindicated moving it from may to june (says he with tongue firmly in cheek)
[10:20] <slashtom> you can never rely on the weather
[10:20] <slashtom> have to hope for the best
[10:21] <slashtom> we ended up in south wicklow, ebel was testing out the new helmet camera
[10:23] <ebel> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rorymccann/5824204188/in/photostream video of us riding bikes
[10:29] <airurando> very nice.
[10:29] <airurando> good quality
[10:29] <slashtom> dingle this coming weekend!
[10:31] <airurando> the Dingle Peninsula is a lovely part of the country
[10:32] <slashtom> we have yet to do that part of kerry
[10:33] <slashtom> and i'm still in 2 minds as of what to do in july, 4 days in beara or donegal
[10:33] <airurando> I lived in Tralee for a few years
[10:34] <airurando> can't really offer an opinion on the beara / donegal decision.
[10:35] <ebel> we drive from bantry to kenmare over beara, and it was great, so we'd like to do that area more.
[10:35] <ebel> was the geeknic fun?
[10:37] <airurando> yeah.  3DCamp was excellent.
[10:37] <airurando> for me anyway
[10:38] <airurando> I feared the talks would go over my head but they were pitched at a high enough level for me to understand.
[10:38] <airurando> some new faces at the geeknic but most stayed indoors
[10:39] <airurando> unfortunately infoturtle and his posse couldn't make it
[10:40] <slashtom> what was 3Dcamp about?
[10:40] <airurando> all things 3D
[10:40] <airurando> films
[10:40] <airurando> virtual reality
[10:40] <airurando> tactile interaction
[10:41] <airurando> neuroscience
[10:41] <airurando> GPS
[10:42] <slashtom> ok, many there?
[10:43] <airurando> I estimate about 40
[10:43] <airurando> schedule here:
[10:43] <airurando> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AiAWdCTNfTcKdG9Jc2pjQTUzb3dRTGpLdzdMZm9iT0E&single=true&gid=0&output=html
[10:43] <airurando> tdr112 was talking
[10:43] <airurando> and on the panel at the end
[10:44] <slashtom> good stuff
[10:46] <ebel> cool
[10:55] <tdr112> me ?
[10:55] <tdr112> :)
[10:55] <tdr112> morning all
[11:04] <airurando> morning tdr112
[15:19] <czajkowski> tdr112: good choices
[15:55] <tdr112> czajkowski: yep
[15:55] <czajkowski> and we have another irish person taken on in canonical for  their internship
[15:56] <czajkowski> :d
[16:01] <tdr112> yep i meet him the other day in ul
[16:02] <czajkowski> tis cool
[16:24] <czajkowski> https://twitter.com/#!/joelennon/status/80293941206978560
[18:38] <tdr112> anyone a nice pub near Upper Leeson Street
[18:44] <delcoyote> near... O'Brien
[18:44] <delcoyote> not so near, The Barge, The 51
[18:45] <delcoyote> M. O'Brien
[18:46] <delcoyote> Leeson Lounge
[18:49] <tdr112> thanks delcoyote i will look them up
[18:53] <delcoyote> no problem
[18:59] <delcoyote> Closer than The 51 you have also the ones in Baggot Street Upper
[20:13] <czajkowski> barge is nice
[20:21] <thethomaseffect> evening all
[20:23] <thethomaseffect> Any word on getting the website domain pointing to the new hosting? I'm ready to work on redesign anytime once it's done
[20:40] <czajkowski> thethomaseffect: I didnt know this was requested
[20:41] <czajkowski> I *think* I need to file a RT
[20:44] <czajkowski> hmmm
[21:02] <czajkowski> thethomaseffect: is the site ready to go live ?
[21:03] <czajkowski> AlanBell: howdy
[21:03] <czajkowski> 20:22 < thethomaseffect> Any word on getting the website domain pointing to the new hosting? I'm ready to work on redesign anytime once it's done
[21:03] <czajkowski> 20:40 < czajkowski> thethomaseffect: I didnt know this was requested
[21:03] <czajkowski> 20:40 < czajkowski> I *think* I need to file a RT
[21:03] <czajkowski> AlanBell: that's right isnt it
[21:03] <czajkowski> and there is a website theme somewhere.....
[21:04] <AlanBell> ubuntu-ie.org is this?
[21:05] <AlanBell> bunch of themes here for different platforms https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website
[21:05] <czajkowski> aye
[21:05] <AlanBell> we are using wordpress for -uk
[21:05] <czajkowski> thethomaseffect: you goe ?
[21:05] <czajkowski> *gone
[21:06] <czajkowski> AlanBell: thanks
[21:06] <AlanBell> it would be an rt to repoint the domain at a different IP
[21:06] <czajkowski> nods
[21:06] <AlanBell> sláinte o/
[21:09] <czajkowski> :)


[00:06] <nijaba> nxvl: late pong
[00:06] <nxvl> better later than never
[00:06] <nxvl> nijaba: did you saw my e-mail?
[00:07] <nijaba> nxvl: I saw one earlier today
[00:07] <nxvl> nijaba: i send it yesterday night (really early in you tz), so must be it
[00:07] <nxvl> s/you/your/g (i have CGI:IRC clients)
[00:41] <osmosis_> apt-get install phpmyadmin  works pretty well, but i feel like I should really have SSL turned on for that too. I haven't found out how to do that. Tips?
[00:43] <d1dk0> hi all
[00:44] <d1dk0> can someone help me with one 6.06 drama
[00:44] <d1dk0> today i install it on 1 old pc - pentium 2 / 256 mb ram
[00:44] <d1dk0> + LAMP
[00:44] <d1dk0> after instalation with started apache and mysql i hat ~ 100mb ram used
[00:45] <d1dk0> after apt-get upgrade i have used ~ 250 mb
[00:46] <d1dk0> someone pls? :)
[00:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> d1dk0, what exactly is the problerm?
[00:53] <d1dk0> i can't see what use these 200 mb ram with stopped apache and mysql
[00:53] <d1dk0> nothing else installed
[00:53] <hads> Try top
[00:54] <d1dk0> no one process use more than 1% mem
[00:55] <d1dk0> summary ~ 20%
[00:57] <d1dk0> Mem:    255868k total,   233696k used,    22172k free,    15328k buffers
[00:57] <d1dk0> Swap:   297160k total,       84k used,   297076k free,   179084k cached
[00:57] <d1dk0>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
[00:57] <d1dk0> 12329 root      15   0  2188  984  768 R  1.9  0.4   0:00.04 top
[00:57] <d1dk0>     1 root      16   0  1564  532  460 S  0.0  0.2   0:03.60 init
[00:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> free is proably mroe useful info wise
[00:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> but the key thing to note is 179084k cached 15328k buffers
[00:58] <d1dk0> free
[00:58] <d1dk0>              total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
[00:58] <d1dk0> Mem:        255868     233696      22172          0      15348     179064
[00:58] <d1dk0> but i have nothing started / installed
[00:59] <d1dk0> i install ubuntu before few hours
[00:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> same as what i said before: look at buffers and cached
[01:00] <Kamping_Kaiser> `free -m` will give you in mb instead of kb btw
[01:00] <d1dk0> tnx
[01:01] <d1dk0> it is possible to clear the cache?
[01:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> why would you want to?
[01:01] <hads> RAM being used is a good thing.
[01:03] <d1dk0> because in clear installation /without apt-get upgrade/ i hat used only 100mb ram
[01:06] <hads> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=175419
[01:06] <d1dk0> tnx! (beer)
[01:07] <d1dk0> nice :D
[02:27] <akuma55> hello im new to ubuntu server i got a question
[02:27] <akuma55> whats the commant to reboot
[02:27] <akuma55> ?
[02:28] <erichammond> akuma55: reboot
[02:33] <akuma55> what the comman to be root
[02:33] <erichammond> akuma55: sudo reboot
[02:34] <akuma55> thanx
[02:34] <erichammond> akuma55: You may need to be in an admin group and it may prompt you for a password
[02:34] <erichammond> akuma55: (enter your own password)
[02:34] <akuma55> yeah it worked thanx
[02:35] <akuma55> i am trying to make a file server can you help me with?
[02:36] <akuma55> to set it up
[02:55] <akuma55> im trying to edit /etc/network/interfaces and it wont let me can anybody tell me why
[02:56] <akuma55> what isn the command to edit it?
[03:07] <akuma55> can anybody help
[03:55] <levander> Anybody can recommend a simple to configure mail server that supports ManageSieve and an expire feature?  I'm tired of waiting for dovecot to support these.
[04:14] <levander> What about just naming some simple to configure mail servers so I can see if they support the features I want?
[05:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> couer?
[05:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> *courier
[05:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> levander, courier?
[05:42] <hads> dovecot :)
[05:43] <hads> There's a python managesieve implementation
[05:50] <levander> Kamping_Kaiser: courier is easy to configure? I've never heard of it before, well maybe heard of it in passing.
[06:39] <Jester45> is there a good status tool for servers? not a full control panel but to monitor network useage harddrives ram swap
[06:57] <hads> Monitor how?
[07:40] <semisonic> Does the Latest Ver of Ubuntu Server work with COmpaq SmartArray
[07:40] <semisonic> eg DL-380
[09:00] <elliotjhug> hi all, I'm experiencing an error I'm having difficulty diagnosing with bind, while it is behaving correctly for one of my domains the other is not responding to DNS lookups, what steps are a good way of diagnosing this (ie where do I find logs etc)
[09:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> usual place afaik - /var/log/{,bind}
[09:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> or it could simply be syslog (which i think is default)
[09:13] <Kamping_Kaiser> also try bind*tab* and named*tab* for tools
[09:14] <elliotjhug> thanks - there's definitely no logs in /var/log - first place I checked - I'll try the other two
[09:15] <Kamping_Kaiser> iirc it logs to syslog by default (i used one of the spare syslogd log things to log into a seperate file)
[09:16] <elliotjhug> yeah - disocered a nice set of errors here
[09:18] <elliotjhug> hmm, giving me a 'bad dotted quad' error on one of my lines.. but that line has worked perfectly well in the past
[09:19]  * Kamping_Kaiser puts a cross in 'tech support bingo' square "but it worked previously"
[09:20] <elliotjhug> sorry - I know, found the problem, so it can't have worked previously - cos the IP address is set to start with 912 - which can't be right. Hopefully this should fix it
[09:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> hehehe
[11:17] <jackli> oftc.net
[11:17] <jackli> irc://oftc.net
[11:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> o_0
[11:24] <Deeps> i keep typoing that as otfc
[11:24] <Deeps> too much football
[11:31] <Kamping_Kaiser> can someone remind me what the pam module for running arbitary scripts is called?
[12:30]  * delcoyote hi
[13:03] <ctx144k> hello all
[13:08] <ctx144k> when ill try ubuntu-server installation (<IP_ADDRESS>) i get after some secounds the follow message:  http://rafb.net/p/Gsj47698.html
[13:08] <ctx144k> anyone have an idea what i can do?
[13:08] <ctx144k> i tried disabling DMA on CDRom ...
[13:08] <ctx144k> (in bios)
[16:41] <Orfeous> hi everyone!
[16:42] <Orfeous> i am thinking of installing ubuntu server instead of debian that i always have been running as server for many years
[16:45] <Orfeous> is it recommended?
[18:40] <lukehasnoname> Orfeous: Ubuntu is nice, but does it offer something Debian doesn't, for you?
[18:46] <Orfeous> lukehasnoname: hmm.. just little more plug n play :P
[18:46] <Orfeous> i mean ubuntu sets up everything with loadable modules that doesnt debian do as default
[18:47] <Deeps> urr, it does?
[18:47] <Deeps> the main differences i see between debian and ubuntu is ubuntu has newer packages and worse ipv6 support
[18:54] <Orfeous> i dont use ipv6 either
[19:09] <PittCaleb> Looking for some help with courier/imap issues on fresh install of ubuntu server, any takers?
[19:15] <lilgeekshop> Is there any program to change or hide  your IP in Ubuntu???
[19:48] <ScottK> Orfeous: I've used Ubuntu Server for two years now and it's served me well.  The real question is do you need newer packages than you can get in Etch (at the time I needed newer stuff than I could get in Sarge).
[19:49] <ScottK> Ubuntu Server also has tools to make integration with Active Directory and setting up VMs easier that Debian lacks (those use cases aren't important for me, but they may be for you).
[20:22] <levander> What's the command to get the status of your wifi card?  It's similar to ifconfig...
[20:22] <Nafallo> iwconfig
[20:23] <levander> Nafallo: that was it, thanks
[20:53] <lukehasnoname> Is there any official changelog for the point release?
[20:59] <ScottK> lukehasnoname: The point release is just the sum of all the updates so far, so not really.
[21:00] <lukehasnoname> ScottK: Ya, I knew that, I was just wondering if it had been logged. It isn't too important; I was curious. Thanks though.
[21:12] <nxvl> soren: ping
[22:45] <ctx144k> hello all. is there a way to get ubuntu-server 8.04 (not version 8.04.1)?
[22:46] <owh> ctx144k: Install it from CD without an active Internet connection.
[22:47] <jjesse> ctx144k: from releases.ubuntu.com?
[22:47] <jjesse> http://releases.ubuntu.com/8.04/
[22:47] <ctx144k> jjesse, first line?
[22:48] <jjesse> ctx144k: the server cd?
[22:48] <ctx144k> i have kernel-problems with 8.04.1 - with 8.04 i havent
[22:48] <ctx144k> yes
[22:48] <Orfeous> now my ubuntu server is up and running :P
[22:48] <ctx144k> owh, i need an image with older kernel
[22:48] <Orfeous> ctx144k: define "kernel problems" what doesnt work?
[22:48] <jjesse> hrm never mind the links all go to the same page
[22:49] <ctx144k> ata - initialisation doesnt work... one moment ill write down to nopaste
[22:52] <ctx144k> http://rafb.net/p/EiQwFm84.html
[22:52] <ctx144k> ATA1.0 is cdrom... so my system doesnt know my cdrom
[22:54] <ctx144k> a friend have same problems after upgrading kernel(aptitude distupgrade from 8.04 to 8.04.1) with his sata-controller
[22:54] <Orfeous> why distupgrad when it worked? :)
[22:55] <ctx144k> ... no fucking comment ....
[22:55] <ctx144k> anyone knows where to get v8.04?


[20:36] <AnAnt> Hello
[20:37] <AnAnt> won't swt-gtk 3.5.1 be sync'ed from Debian ?
[20:38] <nthykier> AnAnt: you should poke blackxored about that
[20:47] <AnAnt> ok
[20:54] <AnAnt> nthykier: I just filed a sync request, it should reach him, right ?
[20:55] <nthykier> AnAnt: I suppose it will :P (has nothing to do with swt)
[20:55] <AnAnt> ok, thanks
[22:30] <krink> hello?
[22:37] <nthykier> krink: hi
[22:39] <krink_> hello
[22:40] <krink_> would you mind  helping me with what im guessing is a simple solution. If i put a string in a class like //  public static void start // and write the string like // String ate = "ate"; //
[22:40] <krink_> what do i have to do to call it in main
[22:41] <krink_> normally its System.out.println(ate);
[22:41] <nthykier> krink_: I think you want to be in ##java - this is channel for packaging java programs for Ubuntu
[22:41] <nthykier> not writing them
[22:43] <krink_> tried got no response


[12:47] <BluesKaj> Hi all
 https://twitter.com/kubuntu/status/1413133184485642253
[14:09] <mparillo> Was Gear a codename?
[14:14] <RikMills> mparillo: They bizarrely changed 'KDE applications' to 'release service'. Then as no one had a clue want that meant really, they changed it again to 'KDE Gear'
[14:15] <RikMills> all a complete promo disaster IMO
[14:19] <mparillo> TY. I thought KDE Software Compilation was easily understood.  Then the split between Apps, Plasma, and Frameworks I suppose was to allow for broad upgrades without forcing an entire monolithic upgrade. allowing (say) Frameworks to deploy more quickly than (say) Apps.
 👍👍👍 (re @RikMills: https://twitter.com/kubuntu/status/1413133184485642253)


[00:14] <superm1> xnox: did you see my question in #ubuntu-mythtv-dev before you dropped?  i wanted to know if it would be possible to extend the "update this installer" to also update mythbuntu-common and mythbuntu-live-autostart (if installed).  there's a bug in mythbuntu-common's VNC plugin that's plaguing some people right now, so i was wondering if we could fix it with
[00:14] <superm1> an SRU potentially until the point release
[00:16] <xnox> superm1: sorry did not see that, so the bug about it (possibly duplicate) in my bug mail against ubiquity
[00:16] <superm1> xnox: yeah that bug.  it's definitely a bug for something missed when going python2->python3, probably a very small fix
[00:16] <superm1> there's been a few now that got reported on the same issue
[00:17] <xnox> superm1: we can extend to upgrade ubiquity components as well, however this will have no effect on 14.04.0/pre-existing images as the list is hardcoded... well one would have to upgrade the installer twice in a row =(
[00:17] <superm1> ah too bad
[00:17] <xnox> (once to get whitelist update & second time to upgrade extra components)
[00:17] <superm1> that would be a tough sell to ask people to upgrade twice
[00:18] <xnox> superm1: generating mythbuntu dailies, and pointing people at them until .1 release is best.
[00:18] <xnox> (which they still should be generated)
[00:18] <superm1> Okay, i guess i'll sort out the actual issue, get an SRU up there and then once it's in the wild anyone who reports point them at the dailies
[21:11] <xnox> Riddell: are ubiquity branches all correct? i see a removed commit notification. I've also branched trusty-proposed branch, which commit(s) should it correspond to now? (i've simply branched trunk)


 any update on the plasma ppa packaging? i cant rollback to normal repo :(
 https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VFSWqW94Qs/
 or i can just remove then reinstall ?
 im back to main repo .. the systray icon for snap apps still missing...
[12:34] <BluesKaj> Hi all
 hiyas
 Rik uploaded to archive, unfortunately it is stuck behind a massive transition. (re @myfenris: any update on the plasma ppa packaging? i cant rollback to normal repo :()
 noted (re @sgmoore: Rik uploaded to archive, unfortunately it is stuck behind a massive transition.)
 no worries, ill wait for it .. back to 5.27.10


[17:36] <MrFixIt> I'm having problems with gnome-calendar not allowing new calendar entries to be added. A reboot seems to fix it. Does anyone know how to restart the background support processes without requiring a reboot?


[07:34] <cheshair> Hi! In my web panel I notice a distinction between "folders" (folders within UbuntuOne main folder) and "my synced folders" (other personal folders I manually decided to sync). Is there any difference I must be aware of?
[07:35] <cheshair> Any different behaviour?
[07:36] <cheshair> In other words, what's the point in having an "UbuntuOne" special folder? I guess that acts as a special repository for my music, android pictures, ...  Icon on the folder still indicates the syncing is going on even if it is over, so I see those two tiny arrows in a circle instead of the green symbol
[11:09] <cheshair> the folder is not that big and only contains one hundreth files
[11:10] <cheshair> any tips?
[11:10] <cheshair> it looks like the icon doesn't refresh
[11:10] <cheshair> on my U1 web panel I see the files regularly uploaded


[08:38] <NCommander> skaet: ping, I'm moving the release date for mx5 server since preinstall pool hasn't landed yet and I rather not push something completely broken and untested
[09:07] <ogra_> NCommander, release date ?
[09:07] <ogra_> NCommander, isnt that bound to milesones anyway ?
[09:07] <NCommander> ogra_: er date we would hav efirst images
[09:07] <NCommander> ogra_: not directly
[09:07] <ogra_> (i.e. next official release date for new images would be A3)
[09:07] <ogra_> does that matter ?
[09:08] <ogra_> we want *working* images by next milestone
[09:08] <ogra_> if they work on first cut they can as well go in on milestone freeze date (ulikely they will indeed)
[12:25] <Laney> are archive days still happening?
[13:23] <skaet> NCommander,  just go ahead and update first image date to your best prediction.   ogra_'s is correct, first release date is a milestone.
[18:13] <skaet> ScottK,  any reason why the Kubuntu images for Karmic, Dapper can't be moved off cdimages to old-images (http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/kubuntu/)  now?
[20:31] <ScottK> skaet: No.  I'm suprised they weren't moved long ago.
[20:32] <skaet> ScottK,  Thanks.  :)
[20:39] <Laney> so I'm just watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snXPtQpl3b0 in which ScottK mentions that the freeze guidelines aren't clear
[20:39] <Laney> looks like they haven't been updated since then...
[20:39] <ScottK> I think they are perfectly clear and have no clue why people get them wrong.
[20:40] <Laney> ok, that some people think they aren't clear
[20:40] <ScottK> How can U/I freeze possibly mean that features that affect U/I are exempt from feature freeze?
[20:40] <Laney> I'm looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureFreeze and it seems like it doesn't clearly express the de facto 'bug fixes are ok' policy as well as it could
[20:40] <ScottK> It's just mind boggling.
[20:41] <ScottK> Possibly.
[20:41] <ScottK> I think the bigger problem is people landing crap at the last minute and then coming up with lame excuses why they thought it was OK.
[20:41] <ScottK> I certainly don't object to more clarity.
[20:44] <Laney> Having not been on the team for a freeze period before I can't really comment, but I do have that impression too.
[20:48] <Laney> Do people respect the 'file a bug for all bug fix uploads after FF' requirement? It seems a bit heavyweight — wouldn't it be better as 'explain that this is a bug fix release in the changelog or sync request'?
[20:58] <seb128> Laney, in practice I've not seen lot of bugs for those
[20:58] <Laney> yeah
[21:00] <Laney> right well I just went ahead and changed it. We can discuss if someone doesn't like it.
[21:01] <ScottK> Laney: I think that's fine.  We did that when we first started allowing it.  I think it's time has passed.
[21:02] <ScottK> It used to be ALL new upstream releases needed an FFe, so just requiring the bug to document it was, in fact, lighter weight at the time.
[21:02] <Laney> Right.
[21:03] <Laney> and after reading these I can't find out how you could confuse UIF and FF
[21:03] <Laney> so I'm on your side here.


[01:33] <CIA-4> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1384 ubuntu/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Move to 2.6.37-5 kernels.
[01:52] <CIA-4> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1385 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20101020ubuntu3
[09:47] <sumitkv2> i installed ubuntu 9.10 alongside windows.....but m stuck with sh:grub>...
[10:06] <ev> sumitkv2: why 9.10?  Are you not able to use Ubuntu 10.10?
[10:08] <sumitkv2> i didnt had time to install 10.10!!but noe m stuck with this thing!!
[10:09] <sumitkv2> ev, ?
[10:10] <ev> sumitkv2: was this a full install whereby you resized windows, or did you install using Wubi?
[10:11] <sumitkv2> ev, i used wubi!
[10:11] <ev> sumitkv2: you're not stuck with it, then.  If you go into Add/Remove programs in Windows, you can select Ubuntu and remove it.
[10:12] <ev> I would suggest that you give Ubuntu 10.10 a try, as it's entirely possible the bug you're encountering has since been fixed.
[10:12] <sumitkv2> ev,  yes!but i want an ubuntu alongside windows using wubi!is there any way of reparing this?
[10:13] <sumitkv2> ev,ok!!i think i ll do that!
[10:13] <sumitkv2> thnx :)
[10:13] <ev> sure thing
[10:13] <ev> if it's still not working with 10.10, please file a bug at http://launchpad.net/wubi/+filebug
[10:18] <soren> ev: I've never used btrfs. Does it actually let me add another block device to the same btrfs filesystem?
[10:19] <soren> "btrfs device add" sure suggests that that is the case.
[10:19] <ev> indeed, I believe it is, but I haven't used it enough myself to be sure
[10:22] <ev> https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Multiple_Device_Support
[11:49] <soren> ev: I can't help but wonder why it's suddenly kosher to do all this stuff in the filesystem layer, but when there was talk of putting ZFS in Linux, there was a lot of resistance for exactly this reason.
[11:50] <soren> I tend to agree with the resistance, actually. It seems really weird to have the filesystem support this, and not put it in a lower layer.
[11:50] <ev> I thought ZFS was shunned because it was licensed under the CDDL
[11:50] <soren> Well, that was the reason the /implementation/ was rejected.
[11:50] <ev> sure
[11:50] <soren> IIRC, Linus didn't like the /design/.
[11:52] <ev> I don't know if I agree.  Sure, there are performance implications (assuming you're talking about doing it in hardware), but you can innovate in the space a hell of a lot faster at the filesystem level.
[11:53] <soren> I just think that thinks like mapping multiple block devices as one belongs in the device-mapper layer.
[11:54] <soren> s/thinks/things/, obviously.
[11:54] <ev> ahh, I gotcha
[11:54] <soren> I can't seem to find the reference where Linus says something along those lines. Maybe I dreamed it. :(
[11:54] <ev> haha, do you often dream about Linus? :-P
[11:56] <soren> Didn't think so, but maybe I do :)
[11:57] <soren> Just found this: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Multiple_Device_Support
[11:58] <soren> It provides their rationale for not using dm, in case you're interested.
[11:58] <soren> Oh, well.
[12:06] <ev> ah, that makes sense
[12:19] <soren> I can't help but wonder why a checksumming dm-linear couldn't be whipped up, but meh.
[15:30] <shtylman> cjwatson: is dmraid not installed in the livecd installer anymore?
[15:34] <cjwatson> was it ever?
[16:00] <shtylman> cjwatson: I thought so
[16:00] <shtylman> but I could be wrong
[16:05] <shtylman> I was under the impression that it was installed if dmraid was detected
[17:05] <davmor2> ev, cjwatson:  http://davmor2.co.uk/ev_logs/debug I'm just grabbing the other logs
[17:06] <ev> ah, parted_server went away before m-a appeared
[17:06] <ev> can you please file a bug and attach those, then mark it as high and assign it to me
[17:06] <davmor2> ev will do
[17:06] <ev> thanks!
[17:07] <superm1> ev, so interestingly enough i discovered recently that our firmware guys have started using hudson too
[17:07] <davmor2> ev also the install has just stopped
[17:07] <superm1> at least for uEFI based firmwares.
[17:09] <superm1> seems to be quite powerful for everything that they've managed to scale out of it
[17:21] <davmor2> ev: No items matched "Evan Dandrea". you broked LP
[17:26] <davmor2> ev: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/677100 I can't set the status and it won't let me assign it to you fsckin lp
[17:26] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 677100 in migration-assistant (Ubuntu) "Migration-assistant flags a warning even though it shouldn't of run (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
[17:27] <davmor2> ev: any other logs you need
[17:46] <ev> sorry about that, had to help Magda with Spotify in Unity.
[17:46] <ev> davmor2: that should be enough, thanks!
[17:46] <ev> superm1: it is made of awesome
[17:47] <ev> I'm a bit blocked at the moment on our IS team, otherwise I'd be showing you reports of installer tests
[18:38] <superm1> ev, can you potentially share how you've got things setup with it while waiting on being able to see the reports?  i am thinking it might be worthwhile to set something up that does something quite similar but triggers off new ISOs rather with my ubiquity plugins layered in place
[18:40] <superm1> hm actually looking over closer, that probably wouldn't work for what i'd like to do
[18:41] <ev> this does effectively generate new ISOs as part of the process (but stops short of mkisofs as it uses NFS), and I'm more than happy to share the configuration with you
[18:43] <ev> superm1: some of the configuration is in here: lp:~ev/+junk/hudson-infrastructure/
[18:44] <ev> I'll work on extracting the hudson jobs into a branch as well
[18:44] <superm1> so does it actually get tested on real hardware then that's PXE booted with an NFS root mount?
[18:44] <ev> correct
[18:45] <ev> the copy of Ubuntu they're running has a post-resume job that tells them to reboot
[18:45] <superm1> ah
[18:45] <ev> when it suspends, it loads as much of shutdown and its dynamically linked libraries into memory as it can
[18:45] <ev> oh and uses reboot -f
[18:46] <superm1> using the same idea /etc/init.d/casper stop does i would guess to load as much as it can
[18:46] <ev> so when a job is ready, it forces a reboot by doing a wake on lan, which means it doesn't depend on the connection to the NFS server persisting (as it will likely have timed out)
[18:46] <ev> exactly
[18:46] <ev> the code is copied straight from there
[18:47] <superm1> is the install preseeded, or is there something that actually fakes out clicks in the UI?
[18:48] <ev> the latter
[18:48] <ev> sikuli
[18:49] <ev> but that bit is interchangeable
[18:49] <ev> it could be preseeded
[18:49] <superm1> ah i think i need to read through a bit of your prepare-cd to see a little better
[18:49] <ev> it could do a series of post-install probes of /target
[18:49] <ev> there's also an i386 chroot involved here (which you'll see in the jobs that I'm about to paste), as the hudson master is amd64
[18:57] <ev> superm1: http://paste.ubuntu.com/533953/ - rough setup of the hudson jobs
[18:57] <ev> I was using a cloned workspace to work around the problem that the netbooks don't have access to the internet
[18:57] <ev> but this deadlocks in hudson
[18:58] <ev> and we'll need access to the archive anyway if we want to test langpack grabbing
[18:58] <ev> and this is where I'm blocked on IS
[18:59] <ev> getting the hudson master to hand the slaves via its dhcp server a route to archive.ubuntu.com and bazaar.launchpad.net
[18:59] <ev> well, that and using pbuilder for the i386 chroot rather than what we've got now, which requires manual intervention for setting up new ubuntu releases
[18:59] <superm1> why not just mirror the archive on the hudson master?  Or at least cache the packages there
[19:00] <ev> I think there's IS voodoo here that effectively does that
[19:00] <superm1> ah
[19:00] <ev> squid and the whatnot
[19:00] <ev> the real trick here was figuring out how to get the machines to boot on command without tearing them open
[19:00] <ev> it was first assumed that they could just be suspended, woken up, and rebooted
[19:01] <superm1> scott ran into the same problems with the stuff he did for http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-installer/ didn't he?
[19:01] <ev> but as mentioned, nfs and tcp don't have yearlong timeouts, so thus the load everything into memory trick
[19:01] <ev> he had the advantage of rebooting into a full system
[19:01] <superm1> oh right
[19:02] <ev> also, I thought we could use file referencing to write the squashfs over top of itself, as existing slaves would use the old copy until they closed it
[19:03] <ev> this doesn't work across nfs, as it turns out
[19:03] <ev> but doesn't matter
[19:03] <ev> as we assume the nfs link to be dead once we suspend
[19:03] <ev> so it does rsync over top of the existing nfs root
[19:04] <superm1> have you considered pulling some of this directly into natty's casper and some others with just a different kernel command line option that casper could trigger to do a lot of what you do?  at least try to get away from having to break apart the squashfs
[19:05] <superm1> oh but you need to push the new ubiquity in, duh.
[19:05] <ev> there may still be value in putting some of this in there (incidentally, is casper surviving?  I could've sworn I heard from Scott that we were ditching it), but I just wanted to get it working first
[19:06] <ev> I did manage to discover that cifs support in casper is horrendously broken at the moment
[19:06] <ev> first because of cifs-utils not being there (fixed in natty)
[19:06] <ev> and second due to a bug in mount.cifs that drops existing mount options on a remount
[19:07] <superm1> casper has potential to not be surviving?  there's a lot that lives there that needs to find a new home then.
[19:07] <ev> indeed, though I could be wrong
[19:08] <ev> one goal with all of this was to be able to just drop a machine in, connect it to the network, add it's system uuid to the hudson config, power it on and have it just work
[19:08] <ev> just work> join the next build
[19:08] <superm1> well you could actually get away without needing to respin the squashfs though if you just install the new ubiquity packages in the early command (or if you include a 99hudson in the initramfs that does that exact thing)
[19:09] <ev> true
[19:09] <ev> I've added a note to do that
[19:09] <superm1> that's actually what i do for my primary plugin to allow it to try to upgrade itself if it sees a newer version added to the media than what's in the squashfs
[19:09] <superm1> you just have to be careful on low memory machines that you don't fill up the tmpfs aufs sets up for you
[19:10] <ev> indeed
[19:13] <superm1> was there a particular reason you chose to launch out of xdg/autostart rather than spawning hudson, sikuli and what not on an upstart job that started while ubiquity started in maybe mode?
[19:14] <superm1> it's not clear to me if the UI has to be ready immediately for things to work when hudson is spawned
[19:15] <superm1> if so, then if you'd be open to moving more of it into natty proper, then in ubiquity-dm it could make sense to just key off the same kernel commandline option while setting up the session to spawn hudson at that time too
[19:15] <sumitkv2> i installed ubuntu 10.10 inside windows Xp....but when i boot into it....i end up with a prompt... GRUB> ......what is wrong....??please help!!
[19:21] <ev> superm1: yes
[19:21] <ev> I think it was because it needed network manager applet to be running
[19:21] <ev> but no, that cannot be it
[19:22] <ev> as we're guaranteed a network connection by the very nature of the setup
[19:22] <ev> hm
[19:22] <superm1> some race condition or sorts though
[19:22] <ev> I'll have to look at my paper notes
[19:26] <superm1> well i've got a lot to play with here on this, thanks! if i can get this replicated with our special ISOs i'll see if I can help come up with some ideas how to improve it or where it would make most sense to pull pieces into natty
[19:28] <ev> that would be amazing
[19:28] <ev> thanks!
[19:28] <ev> heading out, have a good afternoon and evening
[19:29] <superm1> you too
[20:45] <apparle> guys I'm having problem installing kubuntu via wubi....
[20:46] <apparle> after setup, I am dropped at intrafms
[23:47] <MHJessen> I'm currently using eeebuntu 3 (Jaunty - Kernel 2.6.29-1-netbook) on an Asus eeepc 1000 and want to know if I can upgrade to Ubuntu Netbook 10.10 or do I need to do a complete reinstall?
[23:51] <cjwatson> this is speaking as a user rather than a developer, but for my wife's eeepc I found it easier to reinstall
[23:52] <cjwatson> two reasons: (1) the upgrade path from 9.04 to 10.10 goes via 9.10 and 10.04 and there was no eeebuntu for those releases anyway, not to mention that it would have taken ages (2) my wife's eeepc was seriously running out of disk space and didn't have enough temporary space to do the upgrade
[23:52] <cjwatson> it may be possible I suppose but I doubt it would be fun
[23:55] <MHJessen> Ah, OK. I thought that might be the case. The problem for me was that I have a limited situation as far as being able to tinker. I wondered if it was possible to do it without fouling up the 32 GB SDHC partition I'm using for /home. The root is on the 8GB SSD and I still have 47% free.
[23:56] <cjwatson> you can do an install preserving /home
[23:56] <cjwatson> use manual partitioning, mount the partition in question on /home, and make sure the format checkbox is cleare
[23:56] <cjwatson> *cleared
[23:57] <MHJessen> That's true but what happens to the packages that are in Jaunty? Do they get upgraded at the same time?
[23:58] <MHJessen> I guess I'm asking a lot because I'm looking for as painless a way to get to 10.10 as possible.