[04:49] <Kilos> morning superfly and others
[05:53] <Kilos> Maaz, are you awake
[05:53] <Maaz> Well duh!  We're either extremely lucky or there is something else. Life has to come from somewhere.
[06:47] <Kilos> simple answer
[06:48] <Kilos> from the Almighty
[06:48] <Kilos> real powerful super computers up there to design things with
[06:49] <Trixar_za> We needed an asteroid belt as far enough from the snow line to not hit us too much. We needed a gas giant like Jupiter formed at the right time to form the asteroid belt exactly like it is. We needed to be exactly the distance we are from the sun.
[06:49] <Kilos> im hoping to get one fast enough to play all games
[06:49] <Trixar_za> We're either improbably lucky or we had help.
[06:50] <Trixar_za> But try telling a know-it-all atheist that
[06:50] <Trixar_za> :P
[06:51] <Kilos> lol\
[06:51] <Trixar_za> They still believe the universe always existed (dis-proven by science) and that all matter is dead and unchanging (yet again dis-proven by science)
[06:51] <Kilos> sometimes one can laugh at the evolution theory
[06:51] <Trixar_za> Atheist really does seem like the dumbest religion ever
[06:52] <Kilos> as in we evolved from bugs to the ape stage then peeps
[06:52] <Trixar_za> That too. Like most creationist, they totally misunderstand the theory of evolution
[06:52] <Trixar_za> We didn't evolve from monkeys, we evolved from a common ancestor
[06:52] <Kilos> but how come there are still apes left then
[06:53] <Trixar_za> They went one route and we went another.
[06:53] <Kilos> the only evolving i believe in is that peeps that left here for europe are all now pink peeps that cant handle the sun
[06:54] <Trixar_za> Actually race is a quark.  Hence race has nothing to do with climate.
[06:56] <Trixar_za> unlike some South African History books would have you believe
[06:56] <Trixar_za> what*
[06:56] <Kilos> books are only written by peeps that think they know it all
[06:57] <Trixar_za> Also most primates without fur has dark black skin
[06:57] <Trixar_za> :P
[06:57] <Kilos> theory is often misleading
[06:57] <Kilos> like many years ago one was told butter is bad for you use marge
[06:58] <Trixar_za> No, theory is proven - to some extent. It's been tested over and over the last 100 years
[06:58] <Kilos> polyunsaturated stuff or something
[06:58] <Trixar_za> Most people confuse the word theory with hypnosis
[06:58] <Trixar_za> er
[06:58] <Trixar_za> Hypothesis*
[06:58] <Kilos> a while back i saw one saying eat butter marge is bad for you
[06:59] <Kilos> thats why i like this channel. one doesnt get mislead all the time
[06:59] <Trixar_za> That's not a theory though, that's just what testing told them at the time
[07:00] <Trixar_za> They re-evaluate things over the years, so opinion change
[07:00] <Trixar_za> We used to think opiates were good for you too
[07:00] <Kilos> lol
[07:00] <Kilos> and antibiotics
[07:00] <Kilos> but without them we gonna be kinda sick
[07:01] <Kilos> but they destroy the flora goodies inna tummy
[07:01] <Kilos> so gotta eat yoghurt with live cultures to recover
[07:03] <Kilos> i fixed that /_storage partition
[07:03] <Kilos> lol
[07:03] <Trixar_za> or just take a pro-biotic
[07:03] <Trixar_za> :P
[07:04] <Kilos> ya probiotics do same job as yoghurt
[07:04] <Kilos> the fly and pro will fight me again
[07:04] <Trixar_za> I tend to forget to get them
[07:04] <Trixar_za> So yeah, after the anti-biotics kill everything, I suffere a bit
[07:04] <Trixar_za> suffer*
[07:05] <Kilos> fixed all partitions by installing from scratch and naming them as i saw fit
[07:05] <Trixar_za> Great way to clean the colon though
[07:05] <Kilos> lol
[07:05] <Kilos> drink black forest tea to clean out
[07:05] <Kilos> naturally
[07:07] <Kilos> i like using herbal goodies where possible
[07:07] <Kilos> rooibos tea another great discovery. they keep finding more things it works for
[07:08] <Trixar_za> I love rooibos
[07:08] <Kilos> very healthy
[07:08] <Trixar_za> Had to originally get used to the taste, but now I prefer it over normal tea or coffee
[07:09] <Kilos> i forget where you are, keep thinking you in the west of sa
[07:10] <Kilos> something there keeps bugging head. like prieska upington and i never been there
[07:12] <Trixar_za> We have a place called prieska?
[07:12] <Kilos> maybe i got the spelling a bit wrong
[07:13] <Kilos> its near south west
[07:13] <Kilos> Maaz, where is prieska
[07:13] <Maaz> Kilos: Not a clue, sorry
[07:16] <Trixar_za> Even Maaz doesn't know
[07:17] <Kilos> ya south east of upington
[07:17] <Kilos> just looked map
[07:17] <Kilos> on the upington de aar road
[07:18] <Kilos> the bot be stupid today
[07:19] <Trixar_za> Nah, it just has the standard South African education
[07:19] <Trixar_za> We're just lucky it didn't drop out of school early
[07:19] <Kilos> lol
[07:19] <Kilos> or strike and burn it down
[07:20] <Trixar_za> Oh, it's already done that
[07:20] <Trixar_za> What do you think happened to the other bots?
[07:20] <Kilos> lol
[07:20] <Kilos> where are you?
[07:38] <Trixar_za> Brackenfell in the Western Cape
[07:38] <Kilos> ah hi Vince-0
[07:43] <Vince-0> Haai
[07:50] <magespawn> morning all
[07:50] <Kilos> hey magespawn
[07:50] <magespawn> hey Kilos
[07:53] <magespawn> whats up this morning?
[07:53] <Kilos> nothing new magespawn
[07:53] <Kilos> as yet
[07:57] <magespawn> doing a release upgrade for the main pc in the shop
[07:58] <Kilos> to 12.10?
[07:58] <Kilos> what specs main tv?
[07:58] <magespawn> i think so but this is 9.10 so might have to do 2 steps
[07:58] <Kilos> oh my
[07:59] <Kilos> then lotsa steps
[07:59] <magespawn> was xp
[07:59] <Kilos> lol
[07:59] <Kilos> why not install 12.04 clean
[07:59] <Kilos> upgrades gonna take long
[08:00] <magespawn> something wrong with my discs or images, does not install from them
[08:00] <Kilos> main pc i mean
[08:00] <Kilos> oh my
[08:00] <Kilos> cant you put onna stick?
[08:00] <magespawn> single core 2.8 with a gig of ram, two hard drives 1 20 gig 1 80 gig
[08:00] <magespawn> tried that same problem
[08:01] <Kilos> oh my
[08:01] <Kilos> thats same as pc i got from nuvo
[08:01] <Kilos> runs 12.04 well
[08:01] <Kilos> bit slow but ok
[08:01] <magespawn> been rebuilt from bits and pieces
[08:02] <magespawn> i might stop there
[08:02] <magespawn> at 12.04
[08:02] <Kilos> yeah its good for 5 years
[08:02] <magespawn> says the upgrade download will take about 1 hour 6min
[08:02] <Kilos> i love building up pcs that way
[08:03] <magespawn> nice to see something you have put together come to life
[08:03] <Kilos> ya but 9.10 t0 10.04 then 10.10 11.04 11.10 12.04
[08:03] <Kilos> yes i agree
[08:04] <magespawn> you can skip the .04 to go from one long term to the next
[08:05] <Kilos> lts's were 04s methinks
[08:05] <Kilos> as in 10.04 12.04
[08:05] <magespawn> yes i think so
[08:06] <magespawn> busy installing 12.04 to a 16 gig flash drive to boot computers that need data recovery
[08:06] <Kilos> ah
[08:06] <magespawn> or do not have a hard drive
[08:07] <Kilos> what do you do with the recovered files allhaving numbers
[08:07] <Kilos> i sukkelled with that
[08:09] <magespawn> store them on another drive then go through them one by one depending on the person who owns the drive
[08:09] <Kilos> lol massive job hey
[08:09] <Kilos> cant charge per hour
[08:09] <Kilos> you'll get rich too quick
[08:10] <Kilos> hey you work with the hluhluwe game reserve guys
[08:10] <Kilos> they had a mechanic there cb buddy
[08:11] <Kilos> rhinoman
[08:11] <magespawn> sometimes yes
[08:11] <Kilos> will try member his name
[08:11] <magespawn> somebody you knew?
[08:11] <Kilos> ya
[08:11] <Kilos> he used to get us game cheap when they culled
[08:12] <magespawn> getting a steady 121kbs on the download
[08:12] <Kilos> thats slow
[08:12] <Kilos> adsl?
[08:12] <magespawn> compared to?
[08:12] <magespawn>  yes
[08:12] <Kilos> my 8ta runs at around 256kB/s
[08:13] <Kilos> sometimes up to 360
[08:13] <magespawn> steady?
[08:13] <Kilos> ya doesnt go under 220
[08:13] <magespawn> you see this is very steady, and there is a difference between connection and download
[08:14] <Kilos> i only see speeds when downloading
[08:14] <magespawn> i am also streaming the radio
[08:14] <Kilos> ah
[08:14] <magespawn> 1 meg line too
[08:14] <Kilos> i do one thing at a time
[08:15] <magespawn> is i stop the radio it does not change the spped that much
[08:15] <Kilos> i wonder how it works with telkom. they advertise their adsl with a free 8ta 3g modem
[08:15] <magespawn> speed even
[08:16] <Kilos> fone and ask them then you can be online dark times too
[08:16] <Kilos> miss you when you away
[08:17] <magespawn> ty Kilos
[08:17] <magespawn> my adsl comes through mweb though
[08:17] <Kilos> ty for not being away often
[08:17] <magespawn> Wifi network plans are progressing
[08:17] <Kilos> contract to mweb?
[08:18] <magespawn> no just month to month
[08:18] <Kilos> then just check out the telkom offers
[08:18] <magespawn> i am not getting caught like that again
[08:19] <Kilos> any savings can go towards fish
[08:19] <Kilos> ya contracts are bad news
[08:26] <Trixar_za> Well, I must be bored
[08:26] <Kilos> lol why
[08:26] <Trixar_za> I've been looking for Novel Writing software
[08:27] <Trixar_za> That are under 2MB to download and doesn't use a huge back-end like Java
[08:27] <Trixar_za> Found a few good ones
[08:33] <Trixar_za> Focuswriter, Plume Creator and Kabikaboo
[08:35] <Kilos> hi psydroid
[08:35] <psydroid> hi Kilos
[08:35] <psydroid> hi Trixar_za
[08:36] <Trixar_za> Hey psydroid
[08:38]  * magespawn goes to google that
[08:40] <magespawn> has anyone ever used Plex?
[08:41] <magespawn> hey psydroid
[08:58] <psydroid> hi magespawn
[08:59] <magespawn> thought everyone had dropped their pc and run away for a moment there lol
[08:59] <Kilos> lol
[09:09] <bakuman> Sjoe maar julle praat baie vanoggend
[09:09] <bakuman> Oo 'n mede Brakkie
[09:11] <Kilos> more bakuman gaan dit goed?
[09:12] <bakuman> goed goed oom Kilos
[09:12] <Kilos> mooi
[09:28] <magespawn> 17 mins Kilos
[09:29] <Kilos> then you at which release magespawn ?
[09:29] <magespawn> well this one is 9.10
[09:29] <Kilos> ouch
[09:29] <magespawn> so which ever is next
[09:29] <Kilos> you gonna be all day
[09:30] <Kilos> the cds you made, have you tried them on another pc?
[09:30] <magespawn> yup i want to use this machine to run my point of sale
[09:30] <Kilos> are the downloaded iso's actually faulty
[09:30] <magespawn> yes and they work there, so probable actually the cd drive
[09:31] <Kilos> or they way you burned to cd
[09:31] <magespawn> the checksum says not
[09:31] <magespawn> maybe
[09:31] <Kilos> swop cd man
[09:31] <Kilos> you gonna be forever doing upgrades
[09:32] <magespawn> i am patient
[09:32] <Kilos> lol
[09:32] <Kilos> i dont think so many upgrades will be as trouble free as a clean install
[09:34] <bakuman> e hoe gaan dit met oom Kilos?
[09:34] <Kilos> goed dankie bakuman
[09:35] <Kilos> gebruik unity en kubuntu 12.04
[09:35] <magespawn> ahh wel this is one way to find out
[09:35] <magespawn> there was no modfications doen to the original install
[09:35] <Kilos> if its your main machine it must be stable and trouble free
[09:36] <Kilos> paypoint?
[09:36] <magespawn> yes and if i can the server for the internet cafe software too
[09:37] <Kilos> whew
[09:37] <Kilos> no man get a cd for there and do it right
[09:37] <magespawn> but that will depend on the load
[09:38] <magespawn> one of my pet peaves - dirty keyboards
[09:38] <Kilos> the coupla upgrades i did were never as good as a clean install
[09:38] <Kilos> and they so hard to clean the later ones
[09:39] <magespawn> my shop machines are fine that way
[09:39] <Kilos> if you try get key off to clean always something breaks
[09:39] <magespawn> i think it depends on how much you change
[09:39] <magespawn> pc keyboard i just take apart
[09:39] <Kilos> how you get the keys off?
[09:40] <magespawn> pc or laptop?
[09:40] <Kilos> both
[09:40] <Kilos> actually lappy the bad one
[09:41] <magespawn> pc undo the screws at the back and the whole thing comes apart
[09:41] <magespawn> with a few laptops it is two screws to undo and remove it from the case
[09:41] <Kilos> i now lie on my back in the sun and clean keys with wet cloth then blow everything away with compressed air
[09:43] <Kilos> i think thats where you wanna live on top floor of 40 story block of flats to get less dust
[09:44] <Kilos> dust bad here
[09:44] <magespawn> 1 min 31s
[09:44] <Kilos> lol
[09:45] <magespawn> or in a bunker like the president
[09:45] <Kilos> been more than an hour
[09:45] <Kilos> lol
[09:45] <magespawn> always is
[09:45] <Kilos> 2 hours 45 so far
[09:46] <Kilos> and another 6 releases to go
[09:46] <Kilos> whew
[09:46] <magespawn> done with the download
[09:46] <Kilos> 1 . 45
[09:46] <Kilos> ok whats next
[09:47] <Kilos> it will tell you
[09:47] <magespawn> running the upgrade
[09:48] <magespawn> unpacking
[09:49] <Kilos> hi magtie
[09:49] <magtie> hi Kilos
[09:49] <Kilos> magespawn, you gonna upgrade each one too?
[09:50] <magespawn> each one what Kilos?
[09:50] <Kilos> release
[09:50] <Kilos> like update/upgrade
[09:50] <magespawn> only if I have to
[09:51] <bakuman> Kilos, you want to look at my graphs of is your cap too little?
[09:51] <Kilos> i think it should just go past them
[09:51] <Kilos> how big bakuman
[09:51] <bakuman> don't know no tooo big
[09:52] <bakuman> http://ender.no-ip.org/usage/
[09:52] <Kilos> ok give link
[09:52] <Kilos> lol
[09:53] <Kilos> 69 meg on a cell?
[09:53] <Kilos> whew
[09:54] <bakuman> haha it is a smartphone. so apps + youtube
[09:57] <Kilos> ah
[09:58] <bakuman> lots of other graphs @ ender.no-ip.org . took a while to get it all working
[09:58] <bakuman> learnt a bit of php and had to figure out rrdtool
[09:58] <Kilos> why you keeping that info
[09:58] <magespawn> how are you doing it bakuman?
[09:58] <Kilos> or monitoring it
[09:59] <bakuman> Kilos, i what to see where all my cap is going, and if telkom is cheating me
[09:59] <Kilos> lol
[09:59] <bakuman> magespawn, firewall rules on my router, and then post it witj wget to my server which does the graphing
[09:59] <magespawn> cool
[10:00] <magespawn> what software/program does the graphing?
[10:00] <bakuman> i'm busy writing my whole network setup on my blog, so you will be able to see all the details in a few weeks :D
[10:00] <bakuman> magespawn, rrdtool
[10:01] <bakuman> rrdtool is used by programs like mrtg and munin as well
[10:05] <magespawn> post the link when you done
[10:09] <bakuman> will do. have 2 post allready, but non of the really interesting stuff yet: blog.jedrivisser.com
[10:13] <Squirm> morning
[10:13] <bakuman> more Squirm
[10:16] <Kilos> hi Squirm
[10:16] <Kilos> môre
[10:16] <Kilos> does he speak the taal too
[10:17] <Kilos> oh ya van der swanepoel
[10:17] <Squirm> waar het jy 'van der'
[10:17] <Kilos> haha
[10:17] <bakuman> haha
[10:18] <Squirm> en ek kan nie praat 'taal' nie
[10:18] <Kilos> hows things squirmy?
[10:18] <Squirm> good. seem to have slept my hangover off :)
[10:18] <Trixar_za> Evening Squirm
[10:19] <Trixar_za> Er
[10:19] <Trixar_za> Wait no
[10:19] <Trixar_za> It's afternoon
[10:19] <Squirm> morning Trixar_za
[10:19] <Squirm> oh
[10:19] <Trixar_za> Afternoon Squirm
[10:19] <Squirm> afternoon Trixar_za
[10:19] <Squirm> woke up like 30min ago
[10:19] <bakuman> Trixar_za, jy in brackenfell?
[10:19] <Trixar_za> bakuman: yes
[10:19]  * Squirm looks at bakuman
[10:19] <bakuman> cool, same
[10:19] <Squirm> stalker!
[10:20]  * bakuman glares at Squirm, shhhht
[10:20] <Trixar_za> lol
[10:20] <Trixar_za> I'm in Protea Heights
[10:20] <Trixar_za> :P
[10:20] <Squirm> I, for some reason, read that as Pretoria
[10:21] <Squirm> don't ask :/
[10:21] <magespawn> okay Kilos the 16gig flash is now running 12.04
[10:22] <Kilos> yay what did you do?
[10:22] <magespawn> that laptop does not have a hard drive so used a cd and installed it to the flash drive\
[10:23] <Trixar_za> Squirm: So... when you sending those series :P
[10:24] <Kilos> ah
[10:24] <Squirm> Trixar_za: crap
[10:24] <Squirm> they're all on disk
[10:25] <Squirm> just need to actually send the bloody things :/
[10:25] <Squirm> Monday it will be!
[10:25] <Trixar_za> Unless you forget again
[10:25] <Trixar_za> :P
[10:26] <Squirm> I haven't forgotten
[10:26] <Squirm> but I'm like you
[10:26] <Squirm> and you know how lazy you can get
[10:27] <Squirm> be back in 10. need to try and track down my laundry
[10:27] <bakuman> Trixar_za, het jy al aan CTWUG try connect?
[10:27] <Trixar_za> CTWUG?
[10:28] <bakuman> http://www.ctwug.za.net/content.php?s=4a14b91be81e5fa7bc3ade20e5ace69a
[10:28] <bakuman> I get all my series there
[10:29] <Trixar_za> Free wireless
[10:30] <bakuman> yea with many people on, but you need to buy the router and antenna. And then convince someone to let you connect to them. but shouldn't be too hard in Protea Heights
[10:32] <Trixar_za> Can I use it for browsing the internet?  Just need to get router and antenna... :P
[10:42] <Trixar_za> Nice, you can game off it too
[10:42] <Kilos> wow
[10:45] <magespawn> Maaz tell Bakuman What device controls the ip address' on his network?
[10:45] <Maaz> magespawn: Okay, I'll tell bakuman on freenode
[10:47] <Squirm> Trixar_za: it's one very big lan
[10:47] <Squirm> the PTAWUG is the biggest
[10:47] <Trixar_za> Yeah, looks like it
[10:48] <Squirm> I don't think the Durban one is big
[10:49] <Squirm> 10min till lucnh
[10:49] <Squirm> I'm starving
[11:23] <magespawn> bbl
[11:23] <Kilos> k
[11:23] <Kilos> hi SmilyBorg_h
[11:29] <Squirm> better
[11:48] <Kilos> why would i be getting  HUBBARD.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU  as something im connected to
[11:48] <Kilos> what in ubuntu uses that
[11:48] <Kilos> got xchat and pidgin mxit open only
[11:49] <Kilos> http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/
[11:50] <Symmetria> hrm
[11:50] <Symmetria> sup
[11:52] <Kilos> hey Symmetria you forgot us?
[11:56] <Symmetria> heh nah
[11:56] <Symmetria> been busy
[11:56] <Symmetria> can ya take a look at a draft presentationf or me
[11:56] <Kilos> lol ok
[11:56] <Symmetria> for me
[11:56] <Symmetria> and give me comments
[11:57] <Kilos> ok
[11:57] <Symmetria> will msg you url :)
[11:57] <Kilos> k
[12:00] <Symmetria> Kilos lemme knwo what you think :)
[12:01] <Kilos> will do. lots to read
[12:02] <magespawn> Kilos what software can you remember for data recovery?
[12:02] <Kilos> testdisk
[12:02] <Kilos> photorec
[12:02] <magespawn> got
[12:02] <Symmetria> anyone else wanna take a look at a networking preso so I can get as much feedback as possible? lol, that presentation HAS to go well
[12:02] <magespawn> okay
[12:03] <Kilos> Symmetria, put the link here then anyone can look
[12:03] <Symmetria> :) messaged you a url for it
[12:03] <Symmetria> http://www.alstonnetworks.net/preso.pptx
[12:03] <Symmetria> :p
[12:03] <Symmetria> gimme comments :)
[12:03] <Symmetria> heh, the guy from UFS and myself are giving that presentation in Tanzania week after next
[12:03] <Symmetria> but gotta submit it by Monday
[12:03] <Symmetria> I just love the slide with the new core design because its a thing of beauty (the design)
[12:03] <Kilos> did you work out a way to get past lotsa downtime?
[12:04] <Symmetria> kilos yip :) thats in the presentation, total downtime on any part of the network during the whole process was < 30 seconds
[12:04] <Kilos> im on page 9 only
[12:04] <Kilos> ok
[12:05] <Symmetria> we may add some traffic graphs to that presentation as well to show the v6 traffic but not sure yet
[12:06] <Trixar_za> Well now I've seen everything
[12:06] <Kilos> how do i copy/paste from there
[12:06] <Trixar_za> Somebody made a graphic novel about Pinocchio... The Vampire Slayer
[12:06] <Symmetria> Kilos from the presentation? heh, I dont know what viewer you are using :)
[12:06] <Trixar_za> He uses his nose as a stake
[12:06] <Kilos> libreoffice
[12:07] <Symmetria> no idea :) I created it in powerpoint :p
[12:07] <magespawn> lol @ Trixar_za
[12:07] <Kilos> impress
[12:07] <Kilos> eish you windows peeps
[12:07] <Symmetria> heh, powerpoint/visio combination is fun
[12:08] <Kilos> what is additional /15 worth of ip space
[12:08] <Kilos> whats the /15
[12:08] <Symmetria> Kilos <IP_ADDRESS> -> 196.2555.255.255
[12:08] <Symmetria> oops :) added an extra 5 in there
[12:09] <Kilos> yeah but surely you must state additional something so peeps can understand
[12:09] <Kilos> not jusy /15
[12:09] <Kilos> just\
[12:09] <Symmetria> *hrm* possibly, might be a good idea, we didn't because its a highly technical audience but might be worth doing
[12:10] <Kilos> oh they all geeks
[12:10] <Symmetria> heh academic networking conference
[12:10] <Symmetria> :p
[12:10] <Squirm> lo
[12:10] <Kilos> lemme know if you have to explain to them what it means
[12:11] <Symmetria> heh, all in all though, I think we did a fairly decent job on that implementation
[12:11] <Symmetria> and the costs all things considered were peanuts
[12:13] <Kilos> p14
[12:13] <Kilos> should was be is
[12:13] <Kilos> ensure routinmg is
[12:13]  * Symmetria looks
[12:13] <Symmetria> yeah, fixed that
[12:14] <Kilos> and last 2 lines are under the logo stuff
[12:14] <Symmetria> *HRM* thats gotta be a libre issue, doesnt look that way on my powerpoint
[12:14] <Kilos> ok
[12:15] <Kilos> p 15 relays are setup
[12:16] <Kilos> you dont ensure something in the past
[12:16] <Kilos> and not as well supported
[12:17] <Kilos> not as supported
[12:17] <Symmetria> ugh sorry, power dropped
[12:17] <Symmetria> so missed the last few lines :p
[12:17] <Kilos> p 15 relays are setup
[12:17] <Kilos> and not as well supported
[12:17] <Kilos> not as supported
[12:18] <Symmetria> aahh thanks :) fixing
[12:20] <Kilos> p17 once we knew
[12:20] <Symmetria> Thanks :) fixed that as well
[12:20] <Symmetria> lol by the time I got to p15 I was getting tired :P it shows
[12:20] <Symmetria> haha
[12:21] <Kilos> actually maybe once we know that devices are getting
[12:21] <Kilos> hey?
[12:22] <Symmetria> hrm
[12:22] <Symmetria> where is that?
[12:23] <Kilos> p16
[12:24] <Kilos> no 17
[12:24] <Kilos> sorry
[12:25] <Symmetria> fixed :)
[12:26] <Kilos> lol @ redbull and pizza
[12:26] <Symmetria> well, its true :P
[12:27] <Symmetria> between the 4 of us that worked those 2 weeks doing implementation, we worked out that we drank something in the region of 240 cans of the stuff in 2 weeks
[12:27] <Symmetria> :p
[12:27] <Kilos> wow
[12:27] <Kilos> dont believe the adds
[12:28] <Kilos> it doesnt give you wings
[12:28] <Symmetria> hahahaha no but it does keep you away at 4am
[12:28] <Kilos> good coffee
[12:29] <Kilos> yip methinks its a good job
[12:29] <magespawn> i am off, see y'all later
[12:30] <Symmetria> heh, it was pretty cheap to do, the stuff on slide 22 though is the opposite of cheap
[12:30] <Kilos> toods magespawn
[12:30] <Symmetria> that slide 22 design is MAJOR money
[12:30] <Symmetria> later magespawn
[12:30] <Symmetria> (like, 5 or 6 million major money)
[12:31] <Kilos> is this to show the foreign peeps what can be done?
[12:31] <Symmetria> heh its to say that implementing v6 isnt all that complex or expensive, and neither is fixing a broken network
[12:31] <Kilos> ah
[12:31] <Symmetria> I mean, we spent less than half a million bux fixing a network that size
[12:31] <Symmetria> and getting a 70% performance increase
[12:31] <Symmetria> with no downtime
[12:32] <Symmetria> and half a million bux on a network that size is nothing
[12:33] <Symmetria> the moment you stick in 100gig anything
[12:33] <Symmetria> it costs you up the wazoo
[12:35] <Kilos> yip well done
[12:44] <Kilos> yo can
[12:44] <Kilos> grr
[12:44] <Kilos> tide too
[12:44] <Kilos> sarmy in tab hand
[13:12] <bakuman>  magespawn you here?
[13:12] <Maaz> bakuman: By the way, magespawn on freenode told me "tell Bakuman What device controls the ip address' on his network?" 2 hours, 26 minutes and 59 seconds ago
[13:20] <bakuman> Maaz tell magespawn http://goo.gl/zllEf flashed with openWRT
[13:20] <Maaz> bakuman: Sure, I'll tell magespawn on freenode
[13:46] <Kilos> aw the tannie left without saying toods
[13:46] <Cantide> Kilos, i only saw your greeting now haha
[13:46] <Cantide> hi :)
[13:47] <Kilos> lol
[13:58] <Kilos> wb tannie
[14:01] <Kilos> wbb
[14:35] <charlvn> good afternoon
[14:35] <charlvn> Maaz: coffee on
[14:35]  * Maaz flips the salt-timer
[14:39] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charlvn!
[14:39] <charlvn> Maaz: thanks
[14:39] <Maaz> charlvn: No problem
[14:39] <charlvn> Maaz: botsnack
[14:39] <Maaz> Yay, at last someone thinks about me as well
[14:39] <Kilos> lo charlvn
[14:39] <charlvn> hi Kilos
[15:05] <Kilos> ok clever cats how do i get this channel in xchat and not lose freenode same time
[15:05] <Kilos> http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=0ad
[15:06] <Kilos> inetpro, ??
[15:06] <Kilos> Maaz, ibid channel
[15:06] <Maaz> irc://autumn.cpt.za.atrum.org
[15:06] <Kilos> gotta be something like that
[15:07] <Kilos> then xchat gives the option to connect with a right click
[15:10] <Symmetria> kilos, in xchat you might be able to hit control-shit-t to open another status window, not sure if thats teh same in linux (in mac its apple-shift-t)
[15:10] <Symmetria> and then just /server in that status window
[15:11] <Kilos> nope nothing happens
[15:11] <Kilos> hehe
[15:12] <Symmetria> there is definately a hotkey to open another status window
[15:12] <Symmetria> just cant remeber what it is
[15:13] <Kilos> with a link like maaz gave for the ibid channel one just right clicks it right here a click connect
[15:13] <Kilos> ah
[15:18] <charlvn> Kilos: oh, you use a version of xchat that doesn't give you a status window? i used to have that on some distro, i think it was mint
[15:18] <charlvn> Kilos: but on ubuntu 12.04 and 12.10 i now see the status window again
[15:18] <Kilos> whats a staus window?
[15:18] <Kilos> status
[15:19] <Kilos> im on 12.04
[15:19] <Symmetria> you can change it in the xchat settings I believe
[15:20] <Kilos> i looked
[15:20] <Symmetria> lol, I hate xchat under linux though, thats why I use xchat aqua under mac
[15:20] <Kilos> what! xchat rocks
[15:20] <Kilos> one just needs to be clever
[15:21] <Kilos> you sound like the kde peeps
[15:21] <Symmetria> heheh xchat aqua is a thousand times better though
[15:21] <Symmetria> they made a lot of changes in xchat aqua to make it pretty :p
[15:21] <Kilos> pretty text?
[15:22] <charlvn> lemme switch to xchat... brb
[15:22] <Kilos> whew that was fast
[15:23] <charlvn> http://i.imgur.com/KKdwG.png
[15:24] <charlvn> was that what you guys are referring to?
[15:24] <Kilos> ya mine has the nicks window on the right
[15:25] <Kilos> as well
[15:25] <Kilos> with hosts or something
[15:25] <charlvn> no but that was the server tab
[15:26] <charlvn> here's the channel tab: http://i.imgur.com/wPfIC.png
[15:26] <charlvn> this is in gnome3 on ubuntu 12.10
[15:26] <Kilos> ya mine looks like that
[15:26] <Kilos> on unity
[15:27] <charlvn> ah ok
[15:27] <Kilos> and all past ubuntus
[15:27] <charlvn> hmmm i had some version of xchat i was running that didn't have a "freenode" tab
[15:27] <Kilos> xchat is xchat i think
[15:27] <charlvn> but opened the first channel over that one
[15:27] <charlvn> it was weird... i think it was on mint if i recall correctly
[15:27] <Kilos> oh that you setup when loggong in
[15:27] <charlvn> it could just be a setting though
[15:28] <Kilos> choose server and favourite channels
[15:28] <charlvn> no past that, when you actually open the first channel
[15:28] <charlvn> when you're already connected to the server
[15:29] <Symmetria> what does alt-shift-t do (without the control)
[15:29] <Symmetria> or control-shift-t
[15:29] <Kilos> have you set the little start windows to not show?
[15:30] <Kilos> nothing i can see
[15:30] <charlvn> nothing here either
[15:30] <Kilos> hehe
[15:30] <charlvn> Kilos: yup, i hate that little window :)
[15:31] <Kilos> thats where you supposed to choose what server etc
[15:31] <Kilos> they all in therte
[15:31] <Kilos> then edit like freenode and enter #ubuntu-za
[15:32] <Kilos> charlvn, right click this link
[15:32] <Kilos> irc://autumn.cpt.za.atrum.org
[15:32] <Kilos> should give you options
[15:33] <charlvn> wow, it's definitely november, it's only 16:30 and i already need to turn on the lights inside because it's getting so dark outside :S
[15:33] <charlvn> but it's cloudy too
[15:33] <charlvn> Kilos: yes, connect and copy link
[15:33] <Kilos> ya thats the kinda link i need for that 0ad place
[15:34] <Kilos> i dunno how this one for ibid was worked out
[15:34] <Kilos> but works kiff
[15:35] <charlvn> isn't 0ad also on freenode?
[15:35] <Kilos> the game gives that link
[15:35] <charlvn> ok just /j #oad
[15:35] <charlvn> what was the link again? sorry i closed irssi so i don't have it in my history above
[15:36] <Kilos> they on another server
[15:36] <charlvn> ah ok
[15:36] <Kilos> wait
[15:36] <charlvn> if you want to connect to another server, press ctrl+t
[15:36] <charlvn> that opens a new server tab
[15:36] <Kilos> http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=0ad
[15:36] <charlvn> ah yes
[15:36] <charlvn> quakenet
[15:36] <charlvn> ok
[15:36] <charlvn> 1 sec
[15:37] <charlvn> then type: /server irc.quakenet.org
[15:37] <charlvn> that in the new tab, otherwise you will disconnect from freenode
[15:37] <charlvn> then /j #oad
[15:37] <Kilos> ok i try that
[15:38] <charlvn> sorry, i meant /j #0ad
[15:38] <charlvn> with a zero
[15:39] <Kilos> lol
[15:39] <Kilos> yay ty charlvn
[15:39] <Kilos> now forgot what i wanted to ask them
[15:40] <charlvn> lol
[15:40] <charlvn> yup you are in, i see you there
[15:41] <Kilos> lol
[15:42] <Kilos> so we should be able to modify the ibid one to work too
[15:42] <Kilos> Maaz, ibid chsnnnel
[15:42] <Maaz> Kilos: Huh?
[15:42] <Kilos> grrr
[15:42] <Kilos> Maaz, ibid channel
[15:42] <Maaz> irc://autumn.cpt.za.atrum.org
[15:44] <Kilos> Maaz, 0ad channel is <reply> /server irc.quakenet.org and /j #0ad
[15:44] <Maaz> Kilos: One learns a new thing every day
[15:56] <Kilos> hehe i keep adding bits as i member
[16:01] <Kilos> maybe they all sleeping
[16:02] <Kilos> hi smileE17
[16:02] <charlvn> yeah, it's a saturday, they might be taking it easy
[16:02] <Kilos> or in a country thats still asleep
[16:03] <smileE17> hi Kilos :p
[16:14] <charlvn> hi smileE17
[16:41] <Kilos> methinks i try 0ad in kde. maybe its faster
[16:41] <Kilos> wbb
[16:41] <smileE17> hi charlvn :)
[16:46]  * Kilos quasselfied now
[16:47] <Kilos> Maaz: coffee on
[16:47]  * Maaz starts grinding coffee
[16:48] <charlvn> Maaz: coffee please
[16:48] <Maaz> charlvn: Sure
[16:51] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos and charlvn!
[16:51] <Kilos> Maaz: ty
[16:51] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[16:53] <charlvn> Maaz: danke
[16:53] <Maaz> Bitteschön
[16:53] <Cantide> Maaz, coffee please
[16:53] <Maaz> Cantide: There isn't a pot on
[16:53] <Cantide> ,_,
[16:54] <Kilos> hmm
[16:54] <Kilos> my kde trash can is too small
[16:54] <Kilos> grrr
[16:59] <Kilos> first time ive had to enlarge the trash can
[18:02] <Kilos> wb drubin
[18:02] <Kilos> oh my gone again
[18:02] <Kilos> inetpro: wen jy
[18:14] <smileE17> split :|
[18:16] <charlvn> now you're talking!
[18:16] <charlvn> http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/banana-split.jpg
[18:16] <charlvn> yum yum
[18:16] <smileE17> Delicious :D
[18:17]  * smileE17 aimes charlvn
[18:17] <smileE17> Parlez-vous français? :)
[18:17] <charlvn> sorry i speak basically no french :)
[18:18] <charlvn> i live close to the german border, we don't get many french people here ;)
[18:18] <charlvn> does "aimes" mean "beaam" ?
[18:21] <smileE17> aime = love
[18:21] <smileE17> :D
[18:21] <charlvn> ah i see :D
[18:21] <charlvn> me gusta
[18:21] <charlvn> sorry, that's about the only two words of spanish i speak :S
[18:21] <smileE17> not like gay people ;) but just like friends :)
[18:22] <charlvn> lol
[18:22] <smileE17> French, you mean? :P
[18:22] <charlvn> me gusta is french?
[18:22] <smileE17> Ooo :p
[18:22] <smileE17> I see! ;)
[18:22] <smileE17> aime is french :P
[18:23] <charlvn> actually, you just gave me some inspiration
[18:23] <charlvn> how would you say "me gusta" or "ich mag" in french?
[18:25] <charlvn> oh wait, i just found it: http://global3.memecdn.com/french-me-gusta_o_150838.jpg
[18:25] <charlvn> here's another one: http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/708588_700b.jpg
[18:25] <charlvn> and here: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llgm7s0xGl1qbak8mo1_500.jpg
[18:26] <charlvn> now i'm satisfied :)
[18:27] <charlvn> the german one is also good: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg2cdg2Fqh1qfhf8ao1_500.png
[18:29] <smileE17> charlvn: Je veux :p
[18:29] <smileE17> (= I want)
[18:29] <smileE17> :D
[18:29] <smileE17> lol, crazy pics
[18:30] <charlvn> :D
[18:30] <charlvn> sehr geil!
[18:30] <charlvn> the expression on that face, i mean
[18:41] <smileE17> lol. ;)
[18:41] <smileE17> "geil" is a very sexual loaded word in Dutch :P
[18:41] <smileE17> both in nl-NL & nl-BE
[18:43] <charlvn> hmmm, depends on how you understand it :P
[18:44] <charlvn> ooh, i'm watching the sketch show, do you know it?
[18:44] <charlvn> really good english comedy
[18:55] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[18:57] <bakuman> .
[18:57] <charlvn> he said night and then his connection got reset :/
[18:57] <charlvn> maybe he plugged his modem out
[18:57] <charlvn> hi bakuman
[19:12] <smileE17> charlvn: no i don't :p
[19:13] <charlvn> smileE17: it's very good, highly recommended!
[19:13] <smileE17> okay :)
[19:22] <bakuman> hi charlvn
[19:30] <smileE17> doei!!! :p
[20:03] <Squirm> hi
[20:20] <charlvn> hi Squirm
[20:32] <Squirm> hello ChanServ
[20:32] <Squirm> hello charlvn
[20:33] <charlvn> lol


[00:09] <SpamapS> JanC: if things are added that will be weighed heavily, but you still have not said how it should work, only how it shouldnt


[12:21] <stiang> How can I convince upstart that "no, there is no process 26428 anymore, please start solr even if you think it is still running"?
[16:34] <pdtpatr1ck> Question - upstart returns 0 whether the app is running or stopped. I've read many bug reports and the back and forth, haven't seen any solution
[19:57] <SpamapS> pdtpatr1ck: upstart *prints* the actual status
[21:04] <JanC> an option to return a status might be useful though
[21:05] <JanC> e.g. in scripts
[21:33] <SpamapS> JanC: I agree
[21:33] <SpamapS> JanC: I believe there is also a feature request to have something like --oknodo for start/stop
[21:34] <SpamapS> JanC: so that you can just say 'start --ok-no-do foo' and then it will just make sure foo is started, not that it changed from stop->start
[21:34] <SpamapS> JanC: given that, status would become less relevant in scripting
[21:34] <JanC> depends
[21:36] <JanC> that isn't useful if you want to be sure it's not running  ;)
[21:37] <JanC> or if you just want to do something different based on that status
[21:45] <SpamapS> JanC: stop --oknodo is the same thing
[21:45] <SpamapS> JanC: if its stopped, you return 0. If you move from start->stop, you return 0. You only return 1 if there's an error.
[21:45] <SpamapS> JanC: for the other cases, parsing status is fine
[21:50] <JanC> parsing is always prone to errors (unless the output is guaranteed never to change)
[21:50] <JanC> and you do not always want to change the started/stopped status
[22:15] <SpamapS> the output is guaranteed never to change
[22:16] <SpamapS> goal/state is set in stone
[22:16] <SpamapS> JanC: we agree, but there are two things.. goal and state.. and status's return code cannot possibly handle all of the combinations of those sanely.
[22:41] <JanC> SpamapS: let's say I feel more comfortable with separate output for machines & humans...   ;)
[22:43] <SpamapS> JanC: what would you have status do then? 0 only for start/running, 1 for all others?
[22:46] <JanC> even if the output would be printed to stdout or stderr, or whatever mechanism is used, there should probably be a difference between output for humans and for computers
[22:47] <JanC> and both should be optimized for their purpose
[22:48] <SpamapS> JanC: $jobname[space]$goal/$state is pretty darn easy to parse for human and machine
[22:48] <SpamapS> JanC: no probably, show me the money. I want to know how you envision it. :)
[22:51] <JanC> that's already not going to work...
[22:51] <JanC> e.g. "network-interface-security (network-manager) start/running"
[22:52] <JanC> or "tty6 start/running, process 1811"
[22:55] <JanC> (well, that's with list output, but you don't always know the exact thing to query without parsing that)
[22:57] <JanC> and maybe not even by parsing that  ;)
[22:58] <JanC> also, sometimes an PID is added, sometimes not
[22:59] <JanC> and maybe in the future other things will be added


[11:54] <salty-horse> hi. any main sponsors around?
[18:21] <renergy> the fonts look now as in ubuntu! thanks a lot!
[18:22] <renergy> the "cleartype" use flag in cairo did the trick
[18:25] <renergy> uh, sorry - that belonged to #gentoo-desktop
[18:45] <hyperair> lol
[18:45] <hyperair> you know ubuntu is where you belong when you customize your <insert distro here> installation to be like ubuntu.
[18:48] <renergy> hyperair: thanks for the info, but I politely disagree with you - I think I would not have found the info about the relevant use flag at #ubuntu
[18:48] <hyperair> of course you wouldn't
[18:48] <dobey> ubuntu doesn't have 'use flags'
[18:48] <renergy> indeed :-)
[18:48] <hyperair> precisely
[18:49] <hyperair> but my statement comes from my time with archlinux
[18:49] <renergy> ah
[18:49] <hyperair> i recompiled a few parts of my system to be like ubuntu =p
[18:49] <hyperair> yeah so it's rather pointless switching after all
[18:49] <hyperair> in my case
[18:51] <renergy> well actually it's somehow similar in my case - I switched from ubuntu to gentoo, and I'm now tuning the gentoo to look like ubuntu :)
[18:51] <hyperair> hah see =p
[18:52] <hyperair> well it's always worth the experience, but you might find yourself back in ubuntu someday ;)
[18:52] <hyperair> that's how it was for me
[18:52] <renergy> yeah that's what I'm writing - it's not pointless I would say - one get the knowledge how the system works, more with gentoo than with ubuntu
[18:53]  * hyperair nods
[18:53] <renergy> actually in my case it's also somehow "back to roots" - the first distro I had was slackware, back in 1997 or so - updated it by hand at that time, and rather quickly ran into what is called "dependency hell"
[18:53] <hyperair> well i have this belief that the package manager is the heart of every distro. learn to package, and you'll learn more about the distro =p
[18:54] <hyperair> dependency hell eh. i've never encountered that, thanks to apt and it's sudoku-solving capabilities =p
[18:54] <renergy> it's now rather pleasent surprise just to watch how the gentoo (emerge, portage) is beatifully doing automagically what I have done by hands before :)
[18:55] <hyperair> heh
[21:46] <Ampelbein> hi seb128, had you had a chance to look at bug #346591 ?
[21:46] <seb128> Ampelbein: hi, no it's sunday and I've been travelling today
[21:46] <Ampelbein> that's ok.
[21:47] <Ampelbein> you don't have to work on sundays, just saw you online here and thought asking could not be wrong.
[21:47] <seb128> yeah sure, I'm just saying I didn't look into it yet ;-)
[21:48] <seb128> I'll do that this week, the archive is frozen right now and I don't want to chase people to get exception today
[21:49] <Ampelbein> thats fine, i think. gnome 2.26.1 is weeks away.
[21:49] <seb128> indeed
[21:49] <seb128> 3 weeks
[22:11] <dobey> hrmm, i wonder what the best way to do this is
[22:13] <dobey> downloading a couple gigs of data in a postinst is probably not a good idea
[22:14] <pochu> what is 'this'?
[22:15] <dobey> installing neverwinter nights (and expansion packs) game data
[22:15] <pochu> are they non-free?
[22:15] <dobey> yes
[22:17] <pochu> even for multiverse I guess...
[22:25] <dobey> meh, the patch to the latest version is 506M for en


[20:06] <thomi> barry: Got a second?
[20:06] <barry> thomi: yep
[20:06] <thomi> barry: yesterday I managed to fix all the failing tests in python3-openid!
[20:07] <thomi> I made a pull request, and it was merged last night \o/
[20:07] <barry> thomi: awesome!
[20:07] <thomi> the upstream dev also mentioned that they'll do another release soon, so that's nice
[20:07] <thomi> right, that's the good news :)
[20:07] <thomi> the bad news is that...
[20:07] <thomi> During a package build, I still get a failure:
[20:08] <thomi> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/8091792/
[20:08] <barry> thomi: how are you building the package?
[20:08] <thomi> barry: which looks to me like it's related the the encvironment the package is built in not having some env var that sets the default codec or something
[20:08] <thomi> barry: with sbuild
[20:09] <thomi> I make a src package with 'bzr bd -S' then build it with 'sbuild -Ad utopic python3-openid_3.0.2-1.dsc'
[20:09] <barry> thomi: yep, that's it.  there's a file that's expecting a default system encoding, which on your desktop is probably some UTF-8 encoding.  there's no default encoding in sbuild
[20:09] <barry> *really schroot environment
[20:09] <thomi> barry: that's odd though, is that the traceback doesn't match the source code
[20:10] <thomi> when it complains about this:
[20:10] <thomi>   File "/«PKGBUILDDIR»/openid/test/trustroot.py", line 76, in pyUnitTests
[20:10] <thomi>     test_data = test_data_file.read()
[20:10] <thomi> the upstream line is actually:
[20:10] <thomi> oh wait
[20:10] <thomi> OK, it *does* match
[20:10] <barry> :)
[20:10] <thomi> but the complete code is this:
[20:10] <thomi> test_data_file_name = os.path.join(here, 'data', 'trustroot.txt')
[20:10] <thomi>     test_data_file = open(test_data_file_name, encoding='utf-8')
[20:11] <thomi> I thought that since it was specifying an encoding in the open call, we should be good?
[20:11] <barry> yes, should be!
[20:11] <thomi> hmmmm
[20:12] <thomi> OK, that traceback really *doesn't* matcht he source code - it's off by one line, which is what confused me
[20:12] <barry> any possibility there's a quilt patch mucking things up?
[20:13] <thomi> there is a quilt patch, which is the changes I made to make the tests pass, but that should be applied when the tests are run, right?
[20:13] <thomi> barry: perhaps you could try? lp:~thomir/+junk/python3-openid is the packaging branch...
[20:14]  * barry tries
[20:17] <barry> reproducible.  entering chroot
[20:18] <thomi> I realise now that I should have made sure I could build the package before submirring the PR. ahh well
[20:21] <barry> hang on
[20:21] <barry> in the chroot, i see:
[20:21] <barry>     test_data_file = open(test_data_file_name)
[20:21] <barry>
[20:21] <barry> no encoding
[20:22] <barry> do you perhaps have a quilt patch that isn't included in the branch?
[20:22] <thomi> wha?
[20:22] <barry> yep
[20:22] <thomi> no, there's only the one patch
[20:22] <barry> 3.0.2
[20:22] <thomi> oooooh
[20:22] <thomi> wait
[20:23] <thomi> I bet it's in upstream, but not in the release
[20:23] <barry> that would explain it!
[20:23] <thomi> let's see...
[20:24] <thomi> hmmm, nope, that works
[20:24] <thomi> oh wait
[20:25] <thomi> yeah, that's it :)
[20:25] <thomi> barry: so I guess I just make tmy quilt patch include that line, until upstream does a new release?
[20:26] <barry> thomi: yes.  take a look and see if they have a revision that matches just this change.  often you can just import upstream's changeset as the quit patch
[20:26] <barry> *quilt
[20:26] <thomi> hmmm
[20:26] <thomi> ok
[20:27] <barry> if not, just make sure the description or other patch headers indicate that it can be dropped when upstream makes a new release
[20:28] <thomi> barry: how's your git fu?
[20:28] <thomi> using git annotate, I can see that that line was introduced in a separate commit, which is hopeful
[20:28] <barry> thomi: so-so but improving :)
[20:28] <thomi> the commit revno looks like 9770cb66 ?
[20:28] <thomi> or is that something else?
[20:29] <thomi> but I'm not sure how to ask diff to show me what was introduced in that commit
[20:29] <barry> git doesn't have monotonic revnos like bzr, it has sha (1? 256?) hashes.  the above is a shorthand for the full hash
[20:30] <barry> thomi: yeah, this is why i "love" git :(
[20:30] <thomi> it looks like I can do: git diff <commit> <commit>
[20:30] <thomi> but I'm not sure how to say "<commit> +1"
[20:30] <barry> there are ^ and ~ involved i think
[20:31] <barry> let me see if i have a git repo handy
[20:31] <thomi> barry: got it:
[20:32] <thomi> git diff 9770cb66..9770cb66~1
[20:32] <barry> i think you can always just do `git diff -c <revision>`
[20:32] <barry> yeah, that's it
[20:52] <thomi> barry: can I blindly append one patch to another? or are there headers that can only happen at the top of the patch file?
[20:52] <thomi> where 'patch' == 'the ouput from git diff'
[20:53] <barry> thomi: you can append them.  the file is basically patch(1) compatible
[20:53] <barry> usually i group them logically, i.e. here's all the stuff that fixes bug #12345
[20:53] <barry> oops :)
[20:53] <thomi> heh
[20:53] <thomi> cool
[20:54] <thomi> wow, isdn... blast from the past
[20:54] <barry> thomi: the point being you want to make it easy for you later to just delete the patch when upstream releases a fix
[20:54] <barry> i.e. when they fix bug #1
[20:54] <barry> \o/
[20:54] <thomi> :)
[20:55] <thomi> I love that the Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo team has taken it upon themselves to fix the bug
[20:56] <thomi> hmmm
[20:56] <thomi> that doesn't work
[23:35] <thomi> barry: still around?


[08:55] <cbx33> @schedule
[08:55] <Ubugtu> schedule Retrieve the date/time of scheduled meetings in a specific timezone
[08:55] <cbx33> @schedule GMT
[08:55] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT: 20 Apr 20:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 20:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 12:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 13:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 02:00: Dapper Development Status | 27 Apr 22:00: Kubuntu
[09:11] <watermelon> @schedule manila
[09:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Manila: 21 Apr 04:00: Dapper Development Status | 26 Apr 04:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 21:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 10:00: Dapper Development Status | 28 Apr 06:00: Kubuntu
[09:24] <sivang> @schedule Israel
[09:24] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: 20 Apr 23:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 23:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 15:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 16:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 05:00: Dapper Development Status | 28 Apr 01:00: Kubuntu
[11:23] <freeflying> @schedule Shanghai
[11:23] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 21 Apr 04:00: Dapper Development Status | 26 Apr 04:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 21:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 10:00: Dapper Development Status | 28 Apr 06:00: Kubuntu
[03:50] <leetcharmer> hihi all :D
[03:51] <leetcharmer> umm, is Beta released now? :D
[03:51] <Mithrandir> not yet
[03:51] <Kamion> you'll get an announcement when it's released.
[03:51] <leetcharmer> is today the day though?
[03:52] <Kamion> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
[03:52] <jsgotangco> please wait for the email
[03:52] <leetcharmer> is there an e-mail list? :D
[03:53] <jsgotangco> you can subscribe to https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-announce
[03:53] <Kamion> ubuntu-announce
[03:53] <Kamion> beta release announcement will go to -announce rather than -devel-announce, I expect
[03:55] <leetcharmer> okies, thx :D
[03:55] <Kamion> also, this is a channel for team meetings. Please use #ubuntu for questions.
[03:58] <leetcharmer> okies :D
[09:02] <Klaidas> @schedule GMT+2
[09:02] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+2: 20 Apr 18:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 18:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 11:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 00:00: Dapper Development Status | 27 Apr 20:00: Kubuntu
[09:32] <rikai> @schedule GMT-5
[09:32] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT-5: 21 Apr 01:00: Dapper Development Status | 26 Apr 01:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 17:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 18:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 07:00: Dapper Development Status | 28 Apr 03:00: Kubuntu
[09:38] <Seveas> Klaidas, rikai the GMT+/GMT- is misleading, please use a named timezone
[09:47] <rikai> Seveas: alright, thanks.
[09:48] <Klaidas> thanks
[10:46] <v0xel> @schedule GMT+1
[10:46] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+1: Current meeting: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 19:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 11:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 12:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 01:00: Dapper Development Status | 27 Apr 21:00: Kubuntu
[11:32] <lucasvo> @schedule GMT+2
[11:32] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+2: 25 Apr 18:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 11:30: Xubuntu | 27 Apr 00:00: Dapper Development Status | 27 Apr 20:00: Kubuntu
[11:34] <sivang> hmm , wasnt there an development status meeting?
[11:35] <Riddell> it got cancelled
[11:35] <sivang> how come?
[11:38] <Riddell> everyone knows what everyone else has been doing.  beta testing
[11:43] <Seveas> @reload webcal
[11:43] <Seveas> no more GMT+X
[11:50] <sivang> Riddell: I see
[11:50] <sivang> Riddell: okay


[00:44] <slangasek> ogra_: system-image doesn't include shim-signed because you can't have both grub-pc and grub-efi-amd64-signed; we want the latter but it's been an incremental process, requiring changes to udf first.  Has udf efi support landed in all the right ppas?
[00:45] <slangasek> only once it has should we change the grub seeding
[06:59] <fgimenez> good morning
[07:29] <dholbach> good morning
[07:34] <mvo> lool: I love your snappy shell idea (as you know) and couldn't help stating a simple branch that gives it some life:  lp:~mvo/snappy/snappy-console
[07:59] <ogra_> mvo, i love it too, but please not on port 22 :)
[08:02] <mvo> ogra_: :) I love the idea of snappy console / repl / cli /shell and being able to interact with it this way. I also like the possiblities it opens up. the points raised in the mail thread are indeed good ones, so by default maybe not
[08:05] <lool> mvo: awesome  :-)
[08:05] <ogra_> well...
[08:05] <ogra_> you could have a "shell" command though :)
[08:05] <ogra_> that gives you a shell session
[08:14] <lool> ogra_: this is already in the proposal
[08:15] <lool> "snappy cli" as a (hidden?) way to start the snappy shell, and "shell" from the cli as a way to start a real shell
[08:16] <ogra_> lool, yeah, though pitti's argument still stands, ssh remote scripts would fail
[08:18] <lool> I'm not sure about this
[08:20] <lool> first, it would work with snappy commands, second, we could implement what people feel is important to get from a running snappy system there, third, there might be ways to reach a shell to run real commands
[08:23] <ogra_> longsleep, image 0.3 ? not 3.0 ? :)
[08:55] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Fresh Veggies Day! 😃
[09:36] <Chipaca> mvo: is it possible you forgot a prereq on the console branch?
[09:41] <mvo> Chipaca: maybe, let me double check
[09:43] <mvo> Chipaca: indeed I did, sorry for that
[09:43] <Chipaca> mvo: apology accepted
[09:54] <Chipaca> mvo_: the comment i made in your decorator2 is for addressing in a later branch if at all :)
[10:01] <Chipaca> mvo_: you know what i'd like? 'snappy verify' to run verify hooks for the apps
[10:04] <rsalveti> morning
[10:04] <rsalveti> Chipaca: welcome back
[10:04] <Chipaca> rsalveti: hey :)
[10:05] <rsalveti> slangasek: the udf efi branch landed everywhere already
[10:10] <Chipaca> mvo__: ETOOMANYMVO
[10:19] <Chipaca> mvo__: commit messages
[10:23] <mvo> Chipaca: thanks, yeah, adding those now, thanks a bunch for your reviews
[10:24] <Chipaca> mvo: wrt verify, i'm +1 on most of it, but uncomfortable with growing the already-too-large Part interface
[10:24] <Chipaca> oh dear
[10:25] <Chipaca> mvo: wrt verify, i'm +1 on most of it, but uncomfortable with growing the already-too-large Part interface
[10:26] <mvo_> Chipaca: makes sense, let me try to think about alternatives then
[10:26] <Chipaca> mvo_: installed from a local meta already returns only SnapParts
[10:26] <Chipaca> mvo_: so a jfdi approach would be to do .(*SnapPart) on the parts returned by instlled
[10:27] <Chipaca> mvo_: a less jfdi approach would split Part into two interfaces, embed the local in the bigger one, and change Installed to return those
[10:30] <Chipaca> mvo_: another jfdi approach would be to tell me i'm wrong (or pyrrhically right) and go with the branch as writ
[10:31] <mvo_> Chipaca: I dislike option (3) because you are right and ignoring that is bad(tm). the two-interfaces approach sounds like the cleanest, wdyt?
[10:32] <Chipaca> mvo_: i think you'll find it's a lot more code :)
[10:32] <mvo_> Chipaca: heh :) probably I will hate myself for not taking the easy option
[10:33]  * mvo_ will try to fix his dsl before diving into the branch
[10:33] <Chipaca> mvo_: may i suggest you set a time limit, take a prod on the interfaces, and bail to the jfdi if it snowballs out of time?
[10:33] <mvo_> Chipaca: ok, that sounds sensible
[10:37] <Chipaca> mvo_: and next time i embark on a refactor, remind me to do the same :)
[10:37] <mvo_> heh :-D
[10:37] <mvo_> promised!
[10:38] <sergiusens> Chipaca: \o/ thanks for bringing up the Part interface again :-)
[10:39] <Chipaca> sergiusens: the price of readable code is eternal vigilantism, or something like that
[10:39] <sergiusens> Chipaca: yup
[10:40] <sergiusens> mvo_: so, if you do this, can you add the Ports interface to the local interface?
[10:40] <sergiusens> it's not part of Parts today and doing the .(*SnapPart) check
[10:41] <mvo_> sergiusens: yes
[10:43] <Chipaca> sergiusens: Frameworks might also be moved over, although i do envision a future in which remote parts have Frameworks() and thus the installer can be more helpful wrt that
[10:46] <sergiusens> Chipaca: i say we request the store to add support for it
[10:46] <sergiusens> and do nicer things
[10:46] <Chipaca> sergiusens: yeah, but you know the store guys
[10:46] <rsalveti> mvo_: any reason for https://trello.com/c/6n9Q3tVh/109-core ?
[10:46] <Chipaca> they're all like "oh no we can't break things because people will get upset"
[10:46] <Chipaca> :)
[10:47] <rsalveti> :-)
[11:00] <mvo_> rsalveti: that looks like trello was playing tricks on me
[11:01] <rsalveti> mvo_: :-)
[11:01] <mvo_> rsalveti: I removed it
[11:01] <rsalveti> mvo_: thanks
[11:02] <sergiusens> Chipaca: adding stuff doesn't break anything :-P
[11:03] <sergiusens> Chipaca: unless you add too much and make it unbearable :-)
[11:14] <lord4163> How do I list all available snappy packages to install?
[11:15] <sergiusens> lord4163: snappy search
[11:18] <lord4163> sergiusens: and then after I installed a package?
[11:19] <sergiusens> lord4163: snappy list
[11:20] <lord4163> sergiusens: what can't I use the package now?
[11:20] <lord4163> holy f*, I typed reboot in my kvm instance and it rebooted the host machine!?!?!?!?!?!?
[11:38] <lord4163> So this snappy thing is for people missing Windows 95 I guess?
[11:42] <sergiusens> lord4163: it cetainly isn't for end users (core at least)
[11:43] <lord4163> for who is it then?
[12:20] <rsalveti> lord4163: atm it's mainly for builders, which is why sergiusens said core
[12:20] <rsalveti> once we have more applications and so on, end users can simply consume that from the store
[12:21] <Chipaca> lord4163: typing reboot in your kvm instance can't reboot the host machine, fwiw
[12:21] <Chipaca> lord4163: if it can, i hear there's good money in selling the exploit
[12:22] <lord4163> Chipaca: It did :P
[12:22] <Chipaca> lord4163: i believe you think it did, but i don't believe it did :)
[12:23] <lord4163> Chipaca: Let's try it again then.
[13:05] <Chipaca> lord4163: how'd it go?
[13:06] <lord4163> Chipaca: didn't work this time
[13:06] <lord4163> Chipaca: but happened the first time? :P
[13:07] <Chipaca> sure it did
[13:07] <lord4163> Now whole GNOME Boxes died
[13:17] <lord4163> Chipaca: According to journalctl Fabian-PC login[1456]: FAILED LOGIN 1 FROM tty1 FOR kvm guest reboots host
[13:17] <mterry> mvo_, you mentioned duplicating a i18n.go file in each package.  Does go tolerate sources that are symbolic links?  Cause then you could avoid actual copies of the code at least
[13:29] <Chipaca> lord4163: i'm not sure what that means
[13:33] <Chipaca> sergiusens: why isn't setupCloudInit part of first boot?
[13:33] <mvo_> mterry: nice idea, I don't know, I guess the package statement in the header is the problem
[13:34] <mterry> mvo_, ugh right
[13:35] <mterry> mvo_, i18n.G() is better than gettext.Gettext() though
[13:35] <mterry> but not as good as G()
[13:35] <sergiusens> Chipaca: because when I proposed to do that I was told not to
[13:35] <Chipaca> sergiusens: by whom, and why?
[13:36] <sergiusens> Chipaca: I wanted an oem snap entry to say cloud: on/off
[13:36] <sergiusens> Chipaca: and just disable the cloud-init job
[13:36] <Chipaca> cloud: very yes
[13:36] <Chipaca> cloud: extra strawberry
[13:36] <Chipaca> sergiusens: that seems sensible to me
[13:36] <Chipaca> sergiusens: what was the problem with it?
[13:36] <mterry> mvo_, you could add a i18n package, include a "InjectGettext()" function, then have every package's init() entry point set up a package-wide var for G?
[13:37] <mterry> mvo_, still copied code, but just a one-line init() maybe
[13:38] <Chipaca> mvo_: mterry: why not “. "yadda/yadda/i18n"”?
[13:38] <Chipaca> as long as i18n only exposed a single well-known function, that would seem ok to me
[13:38] <mterry> Chipaca, oh right!  I forgot you could inline a package.  Maybe that's good enough
[13:39]  * Chipaca would suggest using some non-ascii char for i18n's function, to avoid clashes and because it's extra twisted
[13:43] <Chipaca> mterry: mvo_: a function called Ꝇ would be nice (it's a capital broken l, because localization! :-p)
[13:44] <mterry> Chipaca, that'll catch on!
[13:45] <Chipaca> inorite
[13:45] <Chipaca> mterry: and then we can move tzdata to Ꜩ!
[13:46] <ogra_> there are explicit broken letters in utf-8 ?
[13:46] <ogra_> wow
[13:46] <Chipaca> ogra_: 💔
[13:47] <ogra_> hah
[13:47] <Chipaca> as letters just the L, though
[13:47] <mterry> Chipaca, there's potential here for a whole programming language, akin to brainfuck
[13:48] <Chipaca> mterry: dude. APL.
[13:48] <mterry> Chipaca, hah, yikes
[13:50] <Chipaca> mterry: on the other hand, finding all primes in APL is: (~R∊R∘.×R)/R←1↓ιR
[13:50] <Chipaca> mterry: so we might be on to something
[13:52]  * Chipaca adds APL to the list of things to never, never learn
[13:52] <Chipaca> sergiusens: ...?
[13:53] <mvo_> lol@Chipaca and mterry
[13:54] <sergiusens> Chipaca: the ... means?
 sergiusens: what was the problem with it?
[13:57] <seb128> sergiusens, hey, I tried again u-d-f, using DEBUG_DISK=1, I get a "(parted) mkpart system-a ext4 147456s 147455s" which errors out because the start is after the end (first number bigger)
[13:57] <seb128> sergiusens, that's on i386 if that makes a difference
[13:58] <sergiusens> seb128: --size 10?
[13:59] <seb128> sergiusens, no, why is that needed? isn't that for the writable partition?
[14:00] <sergiusens> seb128: well each of your a/b parts is now 4GiB instead of 1
[14:01] <seb128> sergiusens, I don't have 10G free space on that machine, trying again on my other box which has more disk but that's on vivid and trying to build goget-u-t fails on undefined logger.Panicf
[14:01] <sergiusens> seb128: build as a deb? you need to build on wily
[14:02] <seb128> sergiusens, shrug, that box is vivid ... do you know what I need from wily?
[14:02] <seb128> I tried to update golang* and ubuntu-snappy-cli but that's not enough
[14:03] <sergiusens> seb128: golang-snappy-dev
[14:03] <seb128> sergiusens, I've the wily version of that
[14:03] <elopio> fgimenez: I'll be with you in a couple of minutes.
[14:04] <seb128> sergiusens, I'm trying a clean build
[14:05] <rickspencer3> hi all
[14:05] <rickspencer3> I'm writing a snap in Go
[14:06] <rickspencer3> I am trying to open a yaml file that is at /apps/go-uploader.sideload/0.3/cnf
[14:06] <rickspencer3> os.Getenv("SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH") send me to
[14:06] <fgimenez> elopio, ack
[14:06] <rickspencer3> /var/lib/apps/go-uploader.sideload/0.3/cnf/
[14:06] <rickspencer3> any idea what I what I am doing wrong?
[14:07] <sergiusens> rickspencer3: you want another envvar
[14:07] <rickspencer3> sergiusens, are the envvars documented somewhere?
[14:09] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/guides/security-policy/
[14:10] <sergiusens> Chipaca: thanks, was searching every doc
[14:10] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: listed, not documented, though
[14:10]  * sergiusens finds developer.ubuntu.com hard to navigate
[14:10] <rickspencer3> nice
[14:10] <rickspencer3> lol
[14:10] <rickspencer3> Chipaca, do I want SNAP_APP_PATH ?
[14:10] <sergiusens> rickspencer3: yes
[14:10] <sergiusens> that one
[14:10] <rickspencer3> ok
[14:10] <rickspencer3> tbhanks
[14:10] <rickspencer3> maybe someone could, you know, list out what each is for ;)
[14:10] <sergiusens> rickspencer3: or 'snappy install hello-world' and run hello-world.env
[14:11] <sergiusens> that was in one of the guides I can't seem to find
[14:11] <rickspencer3> that sounds quite indirect
[14:11] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: i'll add that to the doc i'm writing :)
[14:11] <sergiusens> Chipaca: wrt yur question, we need this anyways for backwards compat (setupcloud)
[14:32] <elopio> ogra_: are you coming to the meeting?
[14:33] <ogra_> elopio, yes :)
[14:42] <slangasek> rsalveti: ok, if the udf efi has landed, then we should also make the seed changes to add shim - probably retroactively to 15.04 as well?
[14:43]  * tedg watches carefully
[14:43] <tedg> Which seed exactly?
[14:43] <tedg> :-)
[14:56] <sergiusens> slangasek: didn't we add all that to 15.04 already a while back?
[14:56] <slangasek> sergiusens: 'seed changes to add shim'? no
[14:58] <sergiusens> seb128: personal doesn't have cloud-init seeded, right?
[15:00] <plars> rsalveti: do you think https://code.launchpad.net/~zyga/snappy-hub/fix-1464275/+merge/261833 will be merged at some point soon? It sounds like it causes no harm if you are running the typical debian install on your emmc with bbb, but helps enormously if you do not run the default image on emmc
[15:02] <fgimenez> elopio, i've pushed the latest changes https://code.launchpad.net/~fgimenez/snappy/go-functional-tests/+merge/261748, ready for review?
[15:03] <elopio> fgimenez: I see output :)
[15:04] <fgimenez> elopio, at last! :)
[15:05] <elopio> fgimenez: yes, ready for review, thanks.
[15:05] <elopio> fgimenez: maybe you can add the newline here:
[15:05] <elopio> 256	\ No newline at end of file
[15:07] <fgimenez> elopio, ok done
[15:30] <seb128> sergiusens, it has, why?
[15:32] <dholbach> balloons, elopio, fgimenez, ogra_: mail sent
[15:32] <elopio> thanks dholbach
[15:33] <sergiusens> seb128: hmm, I am now missing context
[15:33] <seb128> sergiusens, <sergiusens> seb128: personal doesn't have cloud-init seeded, right?
[15:33] <seb128> sergiusens, https://launchpadlibrarian.net/209185916/buildlog_ubuntu_wily_amd64_ubuntu-desktop-next_BUILDING.txt.gz
[15:33] <seb128> it's installed
[15:35] <sergiusens> seb128: is it inherited, planned or $reason?
[15:37] <seb128> sergiusens, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-touch.wily/view/head:/desktop#L68
[15:37] <seb128> sergiusens, I guess we copied that from the ubuntu-core seed, we started from there
[16:08] <tedg> mvo_, Why does apt-cache show have seemingly two sections of data?
[16:09] <mvo_> tedg: local and remote maybe?
[16:09]  * mvo_ needs to leave for dinner
[16:09] <tedg> Hmm, okay. Enjoy!
[16:33] <stgraber> ok, so I'm working on making a snap for LXD, which for those who haven't heard about it is a container manager based on LXC. That means it's not going to be the simplest snap package in the universe :)
[16:33] <Chipaca> stgraber: :)
[16:34] <ogra_> stgraber, dont look at the docker snap ... i heard people say thats a very bad example :)
[16:34] <Chipaca> perhaps the different kvm-launching snaps would be better
[16:35] <stgraber> currently my main problem is that LXC contains hardcoded paths. I can obviously get it rebuilt to change those, but I just want to make sure I can rely on stuff being at a fixed filesystem location, say /apps/<snap entry>/current/ and use that in my buil process
[16:35] <Chipaca> stgraber: note you can't write to /apps/<snap entry>/current though
[16:35] <ogra_> we have lvm snaps ?
[16:35] <ogra_> *kvm
[16:35] <stgraber> and if so, it looks like I'll need two builds, one for local dev (sideloaded) and one for the real thing, as one will have the .sideload suffix
[16:35] <stgraber> Chipaca: yeah, that's fine
[16:35] <Chipaca> stgraber: it would be a lot better if you used the environ for those
[16:36] <Chipaca> how hardcoded are the paths?
[16:36] <stgraber> configure args which wind up hardcoded in a .so
[16:36] <Chipaca> ugh
[16:36] <ogra_> yeah, just de-hardcode them and allow them too be overridden by the $SNAP_* vars
[16:37] <stgraber> yeah, not quite looking forward to have to carry patches against upstream for that though (and having upstream be aware of SNAP_ isn't acceptable)
[16:37] <Chipaca> that would be ideal :) or some LXD_* vars, and set those from these
[16:37] <Chipaca> stgraber: wrt upstream, LXD_ env vars should be ok with them?
[16:37] <ogra_> right, just translate them :)
[16:37] <ogra_> you need a shell wrapper anyway
[16:37] <Chipaca> stgraber: i hear they're a friendly bunch :)
[16:37] <stgraber> Chipaca: "maybe"
[16:37] <kgunn> jdstrand: hey i'm trying to modify my seccomp file for mir in place on the vm, but seems to fail on the same syscall...is there a way to update?
[16:38] <stgraber> Chipaca: the problem is that part of usptream is setuid so we usually wipe our env clean
[16:38] <kgunn> or do i have to rebuild/reinstall the snap?
[16:38] <kgunn> tyhicks: ^
[16:38] <Chipaca> stgraber: that makes sense
[16:38] <tomconte> ogra_: what's bad about the docker snap?
[16:38] <ogra_> tomconte, it is just a bad example i heard ...
[16:38] <stgraber> anyway, will poke around some more, might end up just writting a quick LD_PRELOAD hack for those
[16:38] <ogra_> since it has a bunch of exceptions a normal snap wouldnt be allowed to use
[16:39] <Chipaca> stgraber: do keep us updated if you can
[16:39] <Chipaca> and holler if you get stuck
[16:39] <tomconte> ogra_: ah, I see, but is there a way to package docker in a "clean" way then?
[16:40] <ogra_> tomconte, not sure ... i assume the existing docker snap will be updated at some point ... it comes from a time where not much was working in snappy ... nowadays you can get most features you need for a proper docker snap i suspect
[16:41] <Chipaca> ogra_: it'd still need custom security bits though
[16:41] <ogra_> well, but a lot less hacks already i guess :)
[16:42]  * kgunn wonders, isn't it b/c docker is a framework....
[16:42] <tyhicks> kgunn: you can temporarily update the seccomp whitelist for your snap
[16:42] <ogra_> kgunn, that too ... but it actually comes from very early snappy days ... we didnt have any story for hardware access and the like back then
[16:43] <tyhicks> kgunn: what is the failing syscall?
[16:43] <Chipaca> kgunn: sc-logresolve might help
[16:51] <Chipaca> jdstrand: when does sc-logresolve print usage()?
[16:52] <ogra_> Chipaca, when your patch landed that enables it ?
[16:52] <Chipaca> noted
[16:52]  * Chipaca branches it
[16:53] <Chipaca> but if i suddenly disappear it's because somebody found my runaway dog, not because security gremlins took me down
[16:54] <stgraber> so if I set security-override, does that also turn off any cgroup config that's going on with snappy or is there some other thing I need to set to turn that off?
[16:55] <stgraber> (LXC has code which will escape the cgroup, so even if I can't turn that off, the cgroup stuff won't apply to me, but that may confuse some things when my process moves out of the cgroup ;))
[17:01] <tomconte> ogra: thanks, asking b/c we were thinking of a snappy+docker image in azure instead of current full_ubuntu+docker
[17:01] <Chipaca> stgraber: i'd ask jdstrand that one
[17:02] <stgraber> jdstrand: heya
[17:02] <stgraber> jdstrand: so I'm doing an initial LXD packaging. That's obviously a framework and that's coming with more craziness that docker :)
[17:02] <stgraber> jdstrand: so as a first pass, I'm trying to have everything run without any of the security stuff applied to it. So apparmor unconfined, no seccomp policy and no moving stuff into cgroups.
[17:02] <stgraber> jdstrand: how do I do that?
[17:03] <stgraber> jdstrand: (the client itself just needs networking, so that bit will be confined using default policies + networking)
[17:04] <stgraber> jdstrand: eventually the daemon should be running under an apparmor policy, allowing to transition out to any profile we want (same as lxc-start) but still without any seccomp policy.
[17:05] <ogra_> tomconte, well, i think you can just go ahead with that ... if docker gets updated it should be transparent to you
[17:07] <tyhicks> stgraber: the 'unconfined' security template is what you want for running without apparmor or seccomp confinement
[17:07] <tyhicks> stgraber: I don't recall a way to prevent the launcher from setting up the cgroup - let me look at that code
[17:07] <ogra_> note that you need to bribe the store people to let your snap into the store then :)
[17:08] <tyhicks> I think stgraber is just wanting to get something running locally
[17:08] <tyhicks> and then we can decide on what to do for the confinement
[17:08] <tyhicks> (prior to uploading to the store)
[17:08] <stgraber> yeah and that thing will be a framework anyway, so manual review was kinda always the plan :)
[17:11] <tyhicks> stgraber: it looks like the launcher is unconditionally applying the devices cgroup
[17:12] <tyhicks> I don't have a good workaround for you there
[17:13] <stgraber> tyhicks: ok, well, as long as it doesn't get terribly confused when its cgroup ends up being empty, that should be fine
[17:13] <stgraber> tyhicks: LXC has code that will trigger an absolute cgroup move for all controlers, so it'll escape whatever cgroup the launcher creates for it
[17:14] <tyhicks> ok
[17:15] <jdstrand> stgraber: sorry, was in a meeting
[17:15] <jdstrand> stgraber: so the launcher decides when it is going to do the cgroup thing
[17:15] <Chipaca> ogra_: https://code.launchpad.net/~chipaca/ubuntu-core-security/usaaage/+merge/262115 just for you :)
[17:16] <jdstrand> tyhicks: are you looking at the code now for that ^
[17:16] <jdstrand> tyhicks: my comment, not Chipaca's :)
[17:17] <jdstrand> Chipaca: oh gosh, sc-logresolve patch. that thing is barely more than back-of-a-napkin as it is :P
[17:18] <Chipaca> jdstrand: :)
[17:18] <tyhicks> jdstrand: I already looked at the code - it sets up the devices cgroup unconditionally
[17:18] <tyhicks> jdstrand: st graber says that shouldn't be a problem for him at the moment
[17:18] <jdstrand> tyhicks: hmmm, what was I thinking of then... seccomp?
[17:19] <jdstrand> I know it is making a choice about something, cause docker was grumpy about said something
[17:19] <jdstrand> or at least, it was making a choice
[17:19] <tyhicks> I'm not sure about that
[17:19] <tyhicks> let me look again
[17:22] <ogra_> Chipaca, LOL !
[17:22] <tyhicks> stgraber, jdstrand: I guess if ("/var/lib/apparmor/clicks/%s.json.additional", appname) is empty it won't set up the devices cgroup
[17:22] <jdstrand> that's ringing a bell
[17:23] <tyhicks> it doesn't have to be empty - it just can't match a hardcoded string in the launcher
[17:23] <jdstrand> actually I think I documented that
[17:23] <tyhicks> but creating an empty file is the easiest
[17:23] <jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/SnappyConfinement#Cgroups
[17:24] <jdstrand> "Note: because device names are not always static and due to limitations in AppArmor (1350598, 1444679), the device cgroup mechanism is only used when hardware is assigned to a snap, at which point a general write rule for... Conversely, when no hardware is assigned to the app, then the strict AppArmor rules are in effect and an app-specific cgroup is not used. "
[17:25] <tyhicks> ah
[17:25] <tyhicks> right
[17:25] <tyhicks> so just make sure that ("/var/lib/apparmor/clicks/%s.json.additional", appname) doesn't exist
[17:25] <jdstrand> I knew there was a reason I wanted to write that down :)
[17:25] <jdstrand> tyhicks: right, and it won't by default
[17:26] <jdstrand> an oem snap or hw-assign needs to be used
[17:26] <tyhicks> got it
[17:26] <jdstrand> I <3 documentation :)
[18:03]  * lborda asks: any idea how do I get python-smbus in snappy ? i didn't find the package in the ports repo.
[18:16] <Chipaca> lborda: there isn't a python-smbus in ubuntu, even
[18:16] <Chipaca> lborda: but you could probably use the one from debian as a starting place
[18:16] <ogra_> huh ? how can it be in debian but not ubuntu
[18:17] <lborda> Chipaca, yes there's only in debian https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/python-smbus
[18:18] <lborda> Chipaca, i am trying to get the pyglow working on the snappy image... have any of you tried with the pyglow ?
[18:18] <ogra_> http://ports.ubuntu.com/pool/universe/i/i2c-tools/
[18:18] <Chipaca> ogra_:
[18:18] <Chipaca> ｍａｇｉｃ
[18:18] <ogra_> there is definitely a python-smbus
[18:19] <Chipaca> ogra_: but then why isn't there a python-smbus?
[18:20] <ogra_> even my phone sees it
[18:21] <Chipaca> john@fogey:~$ apt-cache search python smbus
[18:21] <Chipaca> john@fogey:~$
[18:21]  * Chipaca wonders
[18:21] <ogra_> no universe ?
[18:22] <lborda> i would thought the the python-smbus package would have to be found inside the universe/p/ folder and not inside pool/universe/i/i2c-tools/
[18:22] <ogra_> the folders are sorted by source package name ;)
[18:22] <Chipaca> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu vivid universe
[18:23] <ogra_> python-smbus is a binary
[18:24] <ogra_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/11726399/
[18:24] <ogra_> Chipaca, oh, you have an archive.u.c entry on an armhf machine ?
[18:25] <Chipaca> no, this was on my desktop
[18:25] <Chipaca> amd64
[18:25] <ogra_> ah
[18:25]  * Chipaca just noticed there is still a debian ia64 port
[18:26] <ogra_> well, my amd64 laptop finds it too
[18:26] <ogra_> ogra@styx:~$ apt-cache policy python-smbus|grep archive
[18:26] <ogra_>         500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ vivid/universe amd64 Packages
[18:27] <Chipaca> ok, i'm going to close my computer and go have dinner and pretend weird things are not going on
[18:27] <Chipaca> because the gammon smells very good and i'm not going to let some silly smbus weirdness ruin it :)
[18:27] <kickinz1> Just to add to this, I used rmadison against python-smbus:
[18:27] <kickinz1> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11726413/
[18:28] <ogra_> (which is actually the right tool ... yay us ... )
[18:40] <kgunn> tyhicks: sorry, was out to lunch...yep, so this is what i'm seeing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbl81P2Vae4
[18:40] <kgunn> and its munmap
[18:40] <kgunn> that's the syscall
[18:47] <mterry> mvo__, so I guess with these gettext branches, we need to push a deb package for the gettext module to wily?
[18:47]  * mterry was just looking into adding a debian/ dir for snapcraft
[18:49] <tyhicks> kgunn: something's not right there - munmap is allowed in the default seccomp template (many things would break if we didn't allow munmap)
[18:50] <tyhicks> kgunn: the resolution isn't great but it looks like you're modifying a seccomp filter file in /apps/mir/snap1/meta/mir.seccomp - is that right?
[18:53] <kgunn> tyhicks: correct
[18:54] <kgunn> and i see it showing up in that copy as well as the one at
[18:54] <kgunn>   /writable/system-data/apps/mir/snap1/meta/mir.seccomp
[18:59] <tyhicks> kgunn: odd - the launcher looks for seccomp filter files in /var/lib/snappy/seccomp/profiles/
[19:01] <kgunn> tyhicks: ahha, i see that now...and it's missing, but it's filename is just mir_system-compositor-snap1
[19:01] <kgunn> i was expecting it to be mir.seccomp
[19:02] <kgunn> tyhicks: so i'm guessing this is the file to modify...
[19:02] <tyhicks> kgunn: yeah, give that one a shot and let me know if it works
[19:03] <kgunn> tyhicks: awesome thank you!....got a new syscall failure....perfect
[19:03] <kgunn> tyhicks: at your earlier statement at it being strange, is it b/c i'm a framwork and having to create my own policy ?
[19:04] <kgunn> e.g. i lose all the defaults out of the box when i create my own
[19:04] <kgunn> tyhicks: and should i just start by copying some particular default file (template) of syscalls permitted ?
[19:05] <tyhicks> kgunn: ah, yes - now it makes sense
[19:06] <tyhicks> kgunn: this is the default template: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/ubuntu-core-security/trunk/view/head:/data/seccomp/templates/ubuntu-core/15.04/default
[19:06] <jdstrand> kgunn: ah, I meant to follow up with you
[19:06] <tyhicks> jdstrand: is there any way for a framework to reuse the default template?
[19:06] <tyhicks> (for seccomp)
[19:08] <jdstrand> what I have been recommending is installing hello-world.canonical from the store, then scp'ing /var/lib/snappy/seccomp/profiles/hello-world*env into meta/foo.seccomp then referencing foo.seccomp in "security-policy"
[19:08] <jdstrand> kgunn: so, in your case, on the device, do "sudo snappy install hello-world.canonical"
[19:09] <jdstrand> kgunn: then do: cd /var/lib/snappy/seccomp/profiles/
[19:09] <jdstrand> kgunn: then, sudo cp  hello-world.canonical_env_1.0.17 ./<your mir seccomp profile>
[19:09] <kgunn> perfect guys...thanks, but struggling has helped it make sense
[19:10] <jdstrand> kgunn: then see if it works. if it doesn't, just add syscalls to the end of ./<your mir seccomp profile> until it does
[19:13] <jdstrand> one could also do: sed 's/^deny/# EXPLICITLY DENY/' /usr/share/seccomp/templates/ubuntu-core/15.04/default > your.seccomp
[19:13] <jdstrand> that is harder to remember
[19:15] <jdstrand> kgunn: iirc, that was all you needed from me yesterday (sorry I didn't see until you were eod)
[19:46] <ogra_> jdstrand, regading rickspencer3's bug i actually wonder what image he runs there ... (might be one of the broken RPi ones for example)
[19:47] <rickspencer3> ogra_, if you are talking about my net_admin  denial ... it's an update amd64 image
[19:47] <jdstrand> ogra_: I confirmed it on amd64 snappy, vivid desktop and precise desktop
[19:47] <jdstrand> it is something else
[19:47] <ogra_> (including system-image-cli -i should be mandatory for bug reporting on snappy ;) )
[19:47] <ogra_> jdstrand, ah, k
[19:47] <ogra_> rickspencer3, thanks
[19:48] <jdstrand> ogra_: note, I advised rickspencer3 on what to put in the bug. This seems to be a golang thing but until we know what is tickling that denial, I didn't know where to put it, so we put it in the snappy project for now
[19:48] <ogra_> ah
[20:00] <Chipaca> ogra_: kickinz1: fwiw, an apt-get update fixed it, whatever it had been
[20:09] <rickspencer3> Chipaca, you seem like you would know
[20:10] <rickspencer3> when do I use SNAP_APP_USER_DATA_PATH,
[20:10] <rickspencer3> vs. SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH
[20:10] <rickspencer3> ?
[20:10] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: i'm not particularly clear on the difference myself, *however*
[20:10] <rickspencer3> nice
[20:10] <rickspencer3> lol
[20:10] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: i do know that SNAP_APP_USER_DATA_PATH is owned by the user
[20:10] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: and SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH is owned by not-the-user
[20:11] <rickspencer3> Chipaca, ok, if I wrote a program that saved files from sensor data, which envvar would I use for saving the file in?
[20:11] <rickspencer3> (and consequently for uploading the file to the cloud service)
[20:11] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: is that a daemon, or a one-off?
[20:11] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: daemons will run as root
[20:11] <rickspencer3> daemon
[20:12] <rickspencer3> Chipaca, oh
[20:12] <rickspencer3> well, it is a service
[20:12] <rickspencer3> don't know if it is daemon per se
[20:12] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: so SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH should work
[20:12] <Chipaca> i meant service, yes
[20:12] <rickspencer3> I declare it as a service, and then use for{time.sleep()}
[20:12] <rickspencer3> ok
[20:12] <rickspencer3> thanks Chipaca
[20:13] <Chipaca> use a time.Ticker, but yes
[20:13] <rickspencer3> ?
[20:13] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: go?
[20:13] <rickspencer3> Chipaca, yes, but the samples I saw said for{time.sleep()} ... time.Ticker sounds somewhat more sensible, though
[20:14] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: for long-lived processes, inside a loop, a time.Ticker is better
[20:14] <rickspencer3> ok, I'll do some Googling and fix that up
[20:14] <Chipaca> time.Sleep is straightforward, but will incurr a higher gc overhead over time
[20:14] <rickspencer3> we should really have an app template
[20:14] <rickspencer3> create a stubbed out service for you (or binary if that's what you need)
[20:15] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: ideally, we'd be exposing systemd timers
[20:15] <rickspencer3> oh goodness
[20:15] <Chipaca> rickspencer3: so you wouldn't need the for loop
[20:15] <rickspencer3> that sounds groovy, yeah
[20:15] <Chipaca> just tell us how often you want calling, and if you want to wake up the device when the time comes
[20:15] <rickspencer3> but hard
[20:16] <Chipaca> not at all
[20:16]  * Chipaca is tempted to show *how* not-hard it is by jfdi'ing it, but needs to keep to a sane schedule
[20:18] <olli> how do I unpack a .snap locally?
[20:18] <Chipaca> olli: dpkg-deb ?
[20:18] <Chipaca> olli: or ar if you're hardcore
[20:18] <Chipaca> olli: or renamed it to .deb and use mc to browse it
[20:18] <ogra_> olli, dpkg-deb -x foobar_0.1_all.snap extracted
[20:19] <ogra_> olli, cd extracted
[20:19] <ogra_> ... fiddle ... fiddle ... fiddle ...
[20:19] <ogra_> cd ..
[20:19] <olli> hm
[20:19] <ogra_> snappy build extracted
[20:19] <olli> thx guys
[20:21] <awojo> Can you convert to snappy after the fact? I'm installing 15.04 VM right now, but I'd like to use snappy
[20:22] <ogra_> awojo, no, ther are completely different (snappy is assembled from debs, but then all deb functionality is removed)
[20:22] <ogra_> s/ther/they/
[20:22] <tedg> So the code using apt-cache and such is getting brittle. Thinking about switching to the python module.
[20:22] <awojo> So I'd have to download the snappy iso, and rebuild my VM?
[20:22] <tedg> Haven't used it before, anyone giving warnings? :-)
[20:23] <ogra_> rickspencer3, SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH is /var /lib/apps/<app>/<version> ... SNAP_APP_USER_DATA_PATH is ~/apps/<app>/<version>/
[20:24] <rickspencer3> ogra_, so, if I am capturing sensor data into files, where would I store it?
[20:24] <rickspencer3> i.e. into which dir should I save the file?
[20:24] <ogra_> rickspencer3, if it is a service SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH ... if it is an app the enduser runs perhaps in the USER_DATA_PATH
[20:25] <rickspencer3> it is a service
[20:25] <rickspencer3> interesting distinction
[20:25]  * ogra_ never had the need to use the latter yet
[20:25] <rickspencer3> oh, i guess if it is a multi-user system
[20:25] <ogra_> well, you need to have $USER for the latter
[20:26] <Chipaca> awojo: no
[20:26] <Chipaca> awojo: what're you wanting to do?
[20:27] <ogra_> awojo, the img is a ready made VM already ... nothing to do ... just download, uncompress and start it with kvm
[20:28] <tedg> We probably named those DATA_PATH variables wrong. We should have made it easier to store in the USER directory than the system one.
[20:29] <ogra_> tedg, well, you need a user for that ...
[20:29] <ogra_> tedg, most bits we have/had in the store are actually services
[20:30] <ogra_> (only pastebinit is an enduser app  i think)
[20:30] <tedg> ogra_, Sure, so for services they should be the same value, no?
[20:30] <ogra_> for services you cant user them
[20:30] <ogra_> s/them/SNAP_APP_USER_DATA_PATH/
[20:30] <ogra_> there is no user ... where would it point to ?
[20:30] <plars> rsalveti: Not sure if you saw this earlier: do you think https://code.launchpad.net/~zyga/snappy-hub/fix-1464275/+merge/261833 will be merged at some point soon? It sounds like it causes no harm if you are running the typical debian install on your emmc with bbb, but helps enormously if you do not run the default image on emmc
[20:31] <tedg> So perhaps we shouldn't have USER_DATA_PATH at all. If there is a user point to the user's home, otherwise the system dir.
[20:31] <plars> or anyone else that might know? ogra_ I think you were looking at that MP also?
[20:31] <tedg> Nobody needs both.
[20:31] <Chipaca> tedg: +1 i think
[20:31]  * sergiusens is back
[20:31] <ogra_> well, not sure, someone surely had a usecase in mind when adding it
[20:32] <ogra_> (i havent found one where i could make any use of it yet though)
[20:32]  * tedg goes on record: Nobody will ever use more than one directory
[20:32] <rsalveti> plars: sure, I can take a look
[20:32] <ogra_> if you have an app that stores config data per user SNAP_APP_USER_DATA_PATH is your place
[20:32] <plars> rsalveti: not a super big rush, just wondering, and it's a one-liner
[20:32] <ogra_> plars, i would feel comfortable if elopio could give it a quick shot
[20:32] <rsalveti> yeah, just need further testing
[20:32] <ogra_> (after all its a one line change ... quickly done and tested)
[20:33] <rsalveti> elopio: care to stamp https://code.launchpad.net/~zyga/snappy-hub/fix-1464275/+merge/261833 ?
[20:33] <ogra_> boot, rollback, auto-rollback
[20:33] <rsalveti> otherwise I can take a look earlier tomorrow
[20:34] <sergiusens> tedg: USER_DATA_PATH is user accessible while SNAP_APP_DATA_PATH root accessible (initially one was for binaries and the other for services)
[20:34] <sergiusens> I didn't come up with it and I didn't read the backlog either :-)
[20:36] <tedg> sergiusens, The question is whether there'd ever be an app snap that would do both. It seems services need one while user apps need a different one. Seems like there could be one variable depending on how it is executed.
[20:38] <ogra_> but that could be confusing
[20:38] <ogra_> for the packager
[20:38] <sergiusens> tedg: my camlistore snap (which is currently unpublished) used both
[20:38] <tedg> sergiusens, How did it use both?
[20:38] <ogra_> sergiusens, yeah, where is it ... fix that !
[20:38] <ogra_> :)
[20:39] <tedg> It seems like the service couldn't ever expect to use USER, but I could see an app share with the service through the SYSTEM one.
[20:39] <ogra_> the webdm store on armhf makes me cry currently ...
[20:39] <ogra_> it used to be so niecely filled already
[20:39] <tedg> Not sure if that isn't just bad design though :-)
[20:40] <ogra_> tedg, what about a service that serves an app shipped in the same snap
[20:40] <ogra_> you'd want one path for the root owned files and the other for user settings
[20:40] <tedg> ogra_, There's also be multiple users, so it couldn't really use the USER directory.
[20:40] <ogra_> why ?
[20:40] <ogra_> teh app knows who executed it
[20:40] <ogra_> (the service doesnt indeed)
[20:41] <tedg> Yes, I don't think the service ever needs to know the USER one.
[20:41] <ogra_> i.e. i have a service and a management app ...
[20:41] <tedg> Though I could see a app accessing the system one. For instance if there was a service that updated a cache.
[20:41] <ogra_> no, the service doesnt need to know the user one
[20:41] <ogra_> but the app does
[20:41] <ogra_> to store per user settings
[20:41] <ogra_> so your snap needs to use both
[20:42] <ogra_> but that setup comes from a time wheer we didnt have a launcher :)
[20:42] <ogra_> might indeed be obbsolete if the launcher can handle it based on $knowledge (whatever $knowledge is)
[20:47] <tedg> Not sure exactly what that should be. But yes, it is interesting. Seems that we'd want DATA_PATH to be "where we want you to write your files" where that is contextual.
[20:48] <jdstrand> kgunn: hey, ok, based on what you've been experiencing and the questions you've had, I wrote up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/SnappyConfinement/DevelopingFrameworkPolicy
[20:56] <kgunn> cool jdstrand
[20:58] <sergiusens> tedg: right camlistore's binaries were executed by the user
[20:59] <jdstrand> kgunn: there may be info in there that you might still find helpful
[20:59] <kgunn> will read
[21:01] <tedg> sergiusens, So then what did you use the system directory for? The user wouldn't have access, no?
[21:01] <kgunn> jdstrand: perfect the development tips is effectively the workflow i'm in at the moment
[21:03] <jdstrand> great :)
[21:04] <sergiusens> tedg: the client and server communicated over http
[21:05] <sergiusens> tedg: server config in /var and user config into /home (the client could talk to other servers and the server could be talked to with other clients, but that is obvious I guess :-P)
[21:06] <tedg> sergiusens, I see. So some binaries were executed under the user and then the service was executed under systemd.
[21:06] <sergiusens> tedg: yup
[21:07]  * ogra_ can imagine there will be many such snaps in the future
[21:07] <ogra_> services and management tools in the same package ...
[21:08] <tedg> Wonder if we could make that easier. Like setup a socket for them that was also in the environment.
[21:09] <ogra_> that wont help if your management app needs to write a config file
[21:09] <tedg> How is that going to work on a mobile device, will we allow services?
[21:09] <ogra_> (which it reads on next startup)
[21:09] <ogra_> no idea, but surely on a desktop and on appliances
[21:09] <tedg> ogra_, I was more thinking in addition to.
[21:10] <ogra_> i can imagine that we want to allow things like an upnp service on a phone
[21:10] <tedg> Not that we'd remove the other mechanisms, just provide an easy way for them to build that app/service architecture.
[21:10] <ogra_> or a streaming service
[21:12] <ogra_> did you know that the first ubuntu phone hack by some external guys was to run a tomcat server on a nexus4 ? ... so i guess we will see that kind of insanity too :)
[21:13] <tedg> Wow, I don't even want Java in browser, much less Tomcat :-)
[21:13] <ogra_> http://community.bonitasoft.com/blog/bonita-platform-running-smartphone
[21:15] <ogra_> oh !
[21:16] <ogra_> i was wrong ... they even ran it on a galaxy nexus !
[21:16]  * ogra_ just noticed the uname in the screenshot
[21:17] <sergiusens> ogra_: wow, that brings back memories :-P
[21:18] <ogra_> yeah :)
[21:32] <rsalveti> maguro, wow
[21:32] <rsalveti> that brings back memories indeed
[22:07] <elopio> rsalveti: ogra_: plars: sure, let me check it.
[22:21] <ogra_> wow, SUI vs CMR just got interesting .. cameroon leads
[22:28] <rsalveti> sergiusens: ogra_: snappy on ppc? http://linuxgizmos.com/powerpc-based-iot-gateway-com-ships-with-linux-bsp/
[22:28] <rsalveti> :-)
[22:28] <sergiusens> rsalveti: well we do have powerpc support :-)
[22:28] <ogra_> no prob :)
[22:28] <rsalveti> yeah
[22:29] <ogra_> (though i shouldnt speak to loud, we dont even manage to produce arm64 atm :P )
[22:39] <sergiusens> ogra_: rsalveti we need to get out of fat packaging :-P
[22:39] <ogra_> yeah, who came up with that insanity :)
[22:39] <sergiusens> we can blame Chipaca :-P
[22:46] <Chipaca> why do we need to get out of fat packaging?
[22:46] <Chipaca> we're doing a lousy job of it right now, fo sure :)
[22:47] <sergiusens> Chipaca: i dunno N arches and N gets bigger every day
[22:48] <sergiusens> Chipaca: we can be smart once we have the store list the files with hashes and tags them with arch (with automagic header reading)
[22:48] <Chipaca> sergiusens: yes, but on the one hand the app binaries are not what take up most of the disk space in many scenarios
[22:48] <sergiusens> Chipaca: well camlistore is ~10MB for each arch
[22:49] <Chipaca> sergiusens: and on the other hand nothing stops the store from stripping the non-arch things out (other than signage maybe?)
[22:49] <Chipaca> in my mind ideally we support both cases well
[22:49] <Chipaca> people that care package each arch separately
[22:49] <Chipaca> people that don't make a fat one and live simpler lives
[22:50] <sergiusens> Chipaca: probably
[22:50]  * sergiusens likes to live a simpler life
[22:50] <Chipaca> that'd probably make the "store does magic" thing not be necessary
[22:50]  * ogra_ too
[22:50] <Chipaca> so the answer is simpler
[22:50] <Chipaca> make a fat one
[22:50]  * Chipaca runs
[22:51] <sergiusens> Chipaca: the WHO would have something to say about that
[22:51] <sergiusens> ... not the band :-P
[22:51]  * Chipaca moves to the netherlands
[22:53] <Chipaca> on a more serious note, if we can agree on some conventions we can have the launcher do LD_PRELOAD and select the right arch binary if multiple are present
[22:53] <Chipaca> not LD_PRELOAD
[22:53] <Chipaca> LD_LIBRARY_PATH
[22:53] <Chipaca> i think that'd be a good first step :)
[22:53] <ogra_> doesnt it do that already ?
[22:53] <sergiusens> Chipaca: conventions make things easy, that's how we quickly got things going with click (when moving away from deb)
[22:53] <Chipaca> ogra_: no
[22:54] <ogra_> oh
[22:54]  * sergiusens stole the convention trick from go
[22:54] <Chipaca> ogra_: yeah
[22:54] <sergiusens> ogra_: you can't LD_LIBRARY_PATH if you don't define where that will be
[22:54] <ogra_> ubuntu-app-launch does it on the phone ... i thought that feature was in the snappy launcher too
[22:54] <sergiusens> ogra_: no, not there
[22:54] <ogra_> sergiusens, yeah, i thought there was a default like on the phone
[22:54] <sergiusens> we can do it for binpath too
[22:55] <sergiusens> ogra_: that's why the magic script became popular
[22:55]  * sergiusens wonders if the channel will go silent in 40'
[22:55] <ogra_> on the phone is is <installpath>lib/<triplet>/
[22:55] <ogra_> why in 40
[22:55] <Chipaca> ogra_: something something copa américa, i'm guessing
[22:56] <ogra_> pffft regional stuff
[22:56] <sergiusens> ogra_: Argentina vs Uruguay :P
[22:56]  * ogra_ watches the *world* cup instead
[22:57] <sergiusens> ogra_: is that world as the US defines it? "The world series"
[22:57] <ogra_> cameroon switzerland was really great right now
[22:57] <ogra_> switzerland actually lost ... completely unexpected and dramatic :)
[22:57] <ogra_> sergiusens, nope
[22:58] <Chipaca> cameroon-switzerland is just as regional as argentina-uruguay
[22:58] <ogra_> womens world cup ;)
[22:58] <Chipaca> ah, ok :)
[23:00] <Chipaca> (i was going to make a joke about them both being in the africa-eurasia region/continent, but didn't)
[23:00] <sergiusens> Chipaca: while you are at it... https://code.launchpad.net/~sergiusens/goget-ubuntu-touch/installYaml/+merge/261865
[23:00] <Chipaca> afro-eurasia*
[23:00] <Chipaca> yeah, bring it on
[23:00] <Chipaca> gasp! installYaml is ready to go?
[23:01] <sergiusens> Chipaca: yeah, been ready for a while
[23:03] <Chipaca> sergiusens: took me a while to realise Boot was not a verb in diskimage
[23:07] <Chipaca> sergiusens: anything else? otherwise it's a wrap from me
[23:07] <sergiusens> Chipaca: wrap it up, personal is still downloading here...
[23:07] <Chipaca> k
[23:08] <sergiusens> thanks
[23:25] <ogra_> sergiusens, good luck !!