[03:57]  * freeflying
[05:11] <nixternal> <-- drunk
[05:12] <ScottK> Sounds like a plan.
[05:12]  * ScottK goes for a refill.
[05:12] <nixternal> i just got home, quite drunk on stone ipa's to be exact
[05:19] <nixternal> ScottK: what are you drinking?
[05:22] <nigelb> heh
[05:22] <nigelb> that's a fun conversation to walk into
[05:23] <ScottK> nigelb: Whisky
[05:23] <ScottK> err nixternal^^^
[05:23] <nixternal> eww. i can't drink that stuff. i only drink beer, or tequila if maco is around :)
[05:24] <persia> whiskey is just not-very-hoopy beer with the water and bubbles taken out
[05:24] <nixternal> haha
[05:24] <maco> nixternal: and only before noon?
[05:24] <nixternal> you drank some brewhahahahs in mt. view when we had an MC night out, so dont' hide it
[05:25] <nixternal> maco: it was 12pm somewhere :)
[05:25] <maco> nixternal: it was 11am where we were! and you tried to use your home timezone as an excuse...til i pointed out it was 10am there
[05:25] <nixternal> mr. persia with his expensive booze and pizza :p
[05:25] <ScottK> nixternal: You need to work on your spelling.
[05:25] <nixternal> maco: my home timezone would have been 10am :p
[05:25] <nixternal> ScottK: to many beers to worry about spelling
[05:26] <ScottK> Watch out though.  That's a word that Riddell takes very personally.
[05:26] <nixternal> maco: and i was sneaking out and drinking before lunch that day too :)
[05:26] <maco> nixternal: i said that!
[05:26] <nixternal> what word is that?
[05:27] <maco> whisky
[05:27] <maco> as opposed to blasphemy, misspelled as whiskey
[05:27] <nixternal> to be honest, and only one person knows this about OLF that year, I started drinking at 9am OLF time :)  tequila and 2 bbeers before we went to lunch that day...and it was kevin and greg's fault for the tequila, not mine
[05:27] <persia> Riddell only (sensibly) cares about "whisky"  All the other varieties (Ouishiage, etc.) are beneath contempt.
[05:27] <maco> nixternal: hahahaha
[05:28] <maco> well now the googles know!
[05:28] <nigelb> haha
[05:28] <nixternal> he drinks that urn brew shit
[05:28]  * persia was very careful not to claim "whisky" was related to beer
[05:28] <maco> nixternal: irn bru
[05:28] <nixternal> maco: have you ever had it?
[05:28] <maco> nixternal: also, /someone/ i know may still have a video of you dancing on the bus
[05:28] <maco> nixternal: yes. a little too citrus for my liking
[05:28] <nixternal> it tastes like it was distilled straight from the urn
[05:29] <nixternal> maco: dancing on the bus? not me, dancing at OLF was probably worse, or the dance off at UDS
[05:29] <nixternal> which was all jono's fault
[05:29] <nigelb> dance off at UDS? OMG
[05:29] <nixternal> nigelb: blame it on jono bacon
[05:29] <nigelb> nixternal: haha, I've seen the titanic song with jono and jorge
[05:29] <nixternal> someone was giving me shots of jack daniels. i only puked that up twice
[05:30] <nigelb> /only/?
[05:30] <nixternal> yeah, but on camera :)
[05:30] <nigelb> haha, have to look for those videos
[05:30] <nixternal> and i was on some live podcast drunk out of my mine
[05:32] <nixternal> nigelb: i don't know if they were ever made public, though maco would know best to bbe honest. she has blackmailed me for 2 years now :)
[05:32] <nigelb> nixternal: must've been UUPC - popey has stuff to blackmail every community member who's ever come to UDS I think
[05:33] <maco> nixternal: no i dont have videos of you. *crimsun* has videos of you
[05:33] <nixternal> not popey at all thankfully
[05:33] <maco> i have videos of greg
[05:33] <nixternal> what? how does dan have videos
[05:33] <maco> of *greg dancing like carlton*
[05:33] <nixternal> hahahahahahahah!!!
[05:33] <nixternal> i remember that
[05:33] <maco> nixternal: dan recorded videos of you on a bus at uds dancing. those are the videos i bring up
[05:33] <nixternal> then everyone started taking their clothes off
[05:33] <maco> differnet year
[05:33] <nixternal> maco: holy cow, i didn't even know of those videos
[05:33] <nigelb> what blsphemy
[05:34] <nixternal> let dan know i want to see those videos
[05:34] <nixternal> or make them public already :)
[05:34] <nigelb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rq29cqNv0U
[05:35] <nigelb> nixternal: you're going to UDS-N?
[05:35] <maco> nixternal: first time i mentioned the vids, you claimed to have been sober at the time too!
[05:35] <nigelb> if so I should bring my cam, I should have enough to blakmail you all!
[05:35] <nixternal> oh, thankfully i wasn't there
[05:36] <nixternal> maco: i was sober on every bus ride iirc
[05:36] <nigelb> maco: he still claims to be sober :p
[05:36] <nixternal> i just don't remember dancing on that damn bus
[05:36] <nigelb> nixternal: what bus ride are you folks talking about?
[05:36] <maco> i dont know exactly. i wasnt at that uds
[05:36] <nixternal> nigelb: from google to the hotel or vice-versa
[05:36] <nixternal> oh, i thought you were
[05:37] <nigelb> nixternal: ah mt view
[05:37] <nixternal> my last uds more than likely
[05:37] <nixternal> unless something changes
[05:37] <maco> nixternal: greg: http://www.flickr.com/photos/maco_nix/3971683031/in/set-72157622350260619/
[05:37] <nixternal> whew, at least that was greg and not me
[05:38] <nigelb> nixternal: don't worry, maco wil probably not sleep until tthat's on the internets
[05:38] <nigelb> now that you gave her permission to post :P
[05:40]  * nigelb laughs at the videos
[05:40] <nixternal> nigelb: there is a video of me dancing somehwere on youtube
[05:40] <nixternal> i just don't know who did it or where it is
[05:41] <nigelb> should find him/her and give a hug
[05:42] <nixternal> ok, i am going to bed. i am exhausted and have to be up early
[05:42] <nixternal> g'nite all
[05:43] <nigelb> nixternal: g'night :)
[05:45] <nixternal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradmcmahon/2942294925/  hahahahahah
[05:46] <nixternal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradmcmahon/2943203248/
[05:46] <nixternal> gahahahahahahah
[05:46] <nixternal> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradmcmahon/2942311965/  <- fuckin' rock stars!
[05:51] <nigelb> haha
[09:01] <debfx> ScottK: are you working on getting the quassel security fix into *-backports?
[09:13] <ulysses> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-users/2010-September/052229.html
[10:08] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: pingly
[10:09] <apachelogger> ulysses: mind forwarding that to kubuntu-devel, I suppose more people read that
[10:10] <apachelogger> also, I, personally do not see why one would want to find the wiki explicitly
[10:10] <ulysses> apachelogger: me too, and there is the search box thing
[10:11] <apachelogger> considering the *only* good thing about the you bun too wiki is that every launchpad us0r has immediate access to it
[10:11] <apachelogger> other than that it is just slow and partially dated and got bad usability and does not blend in with any artwork whatosever
[10:11] <apachelogger> ...
[10:12] <apachelogger> so I just see it as extended information resources for semi-internal purposes such as process documentation and specifications
[10:12] <apachelogger> Sput: I love how easily one gets a quassel on windows ^^
[10:13] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: once you should arrive, it would be good if you could tell me if you are sure you want to commit to room sharing with a maniac, cause I am going to ack my uds invitation todayish
[11:41] <ScottK> debfx: I haven't worked on it yet.
[11:41] <ScottK> I'd planned on just asking for the Hardy backport to be removed since it's pretty useless as is.
[11:43] <persia> Just removing seems dangerous for end-users who may have it installed (although I understand your reasoning).
[11:43] <ScottK> Good point.
[12:11] <ScottK> Riddell: Accepted qtwebkit-source.
[12:13] <Riddell> thanks
[12:28] <howlymowly> hi poeple.. short question: in kubuntu maverick..  is compositing turned off by default right now (I have intel graphics btw)? or is this a bug?  it works if I just press the shortcut for compositing two times.
[12:29] <Riddell> there are issues, http://tinyurl.com/33p7vu3 lists some of the bugs
[12:34] <ScottK> We're testing another mesa snapshot that seems to help somewhat.
[12:36] <ScottK> I'd appreciate it if someone who's on Lucid, amd64 would check if Quassel translations (particularly fr) work for them and then comment in Bug  646467.  I can't replicate the problem on my i386 installs.
[12:43] <Sput> ScottK: the debug output looks like it's a problem with Sonnet (the spellchecker), not with Quassel's translations
[12:44] <Sput> i.e. missing dicts for the KDE spellchecker
[13:13] <Riddell> shadeslayer: ping
[13:13] <Riddell> shadeslayer: I need you to test kopete-gcall using the linphone libraries from kubuntu-ppa/experimental
[13:14] <Riddell> which don't use srtp
[13:34] <Riddell> ScottK: plymouth for your archive admin approval
[13:35] <shadeslayer> Riddell: okies
[13:37] <ScottK> Sput: Thanks.
[13:37] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: hahaha... <3 maniac's :P
[13:38] <shadeslayer> the passport status page is down :(
[13:38] <ScottK> Riddell: That diff is substantial.
[13:41] <Riddell> ScottK: autoconf/automake do like to do that
[13:41] <ScottK> Yeah.
[13:42]  * persia advocates updating autoconf/automake *at build time* if one insists on doing it in an automated fashion.
[13:42] <Riddell> the meaningful bits are in src/plugins/splash/kubuntu-text (in debian/patches/debian-changes) and debian/plymouth-theme-kubuntu-text.*
[13:42] <Riddell> I'd advocate using a decent build system :)
[13:46]  * ScottK presses the "I believe" button.
[13:47] <shadeslayer> Riddell: erm.. i dont have linphone installed, but kopete-gcall is installed
[13:47] <shadeslayer> i do have libmediastreamer0
[13:48] <shadeslayer> and tons of updates... will take about an hour :P
[13:49] <shadeslayer> i guess thats what i get for not updating in 5 weeks :>
[13:49] <shadeslayer> also.. you uploaded qt 4.7 after archive freeze?
[13:51] <ScottK> Sure, the difference between what we already had and 4.7.0 was minor.
[13:51] <shadeslayer> oh ok... i just thought since it was a new release ... ah well..
[13:53] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes, so it's libmediastreamer0 and libexosip2-4 that need tested
[13:53] <shadeslayer> ok..
[13:54] <Riddell> better to have a final release than a git snapshot, makes it very hard on upstream for bugs if people are using git snapshots
[13:55] <shadeslayer> right... :)
[14:10] <ScottK> Sput: Could I convince you to comment about that in the bug?
[14:43] <dantti_work> Riddell: sheytan suggested me Apper, I kind of liked it, do you think it's a bad idea to change it now?
[14:44] <ScottK> dantti_work: It's a bad idea to change it now.
[14:44] <dantti_work> ScottK: k :P
[14:48] <Riddell> dantti_work: we won't pick up the change in kubuntu for this cycle, major bugfixes only now
[14:49] <dantti_work> Riddell: sure
[14:49] <Riddell> dantti_work: as a name it seems perfectly good
[14:50] <Riddell> google suggests surprisingly few other uses
[14:50] <dantti_work> Riddell: nice, I liked it too much less geek imo :D
[14:51] <Riddell> no silly K prefix makes it a winner with me :)
[14:52] <dantti_work> hehe
[14:53] <shadeslayer> im thinking of naming my zsync app as zsync-qt4 :P
[14:53] <shadeslayer> currently its qzsync :D
[14:53] <Riddell> using "qt" in the name causes trademark issues
[14:53] <shadeslayer> didnt know that :D
[14:54] <shadeslayer> well.. its not even complete right now ... so ill change it laterz.. before i release it
[15:31] <sheytan> Quintasan i've logo for you :)
[15:32] <shadeslayer> sheytan: gimme gimme :D
[15:33] <sheytan> shadeslayer wait :D
[15:33]  * shadeslayer is impatient :P
[15:34] <sheytan> you have to be :D
[15:34] <sheytan> well, it's nothing so special, but i think it's nice :)
[15:34] <sheytan> shadeslayer http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6756/pj512.png
[15:35] <shadeslayer> hmm
[15:35] <shadeslayer> sheytan: purple doesnt go with project neon :(
[15:35] <shadeslayer> maybe make it black? and PN in neon?
[15:35] <sheytan> shadeslayer it's not a big deal. it can be every color ;)
[15:36] <sheytan> shadeslayer cool idea
[15:36] <sheytan> just few minutes
[15:49] <sheytan> shadeslayer http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/214/g4623.png
[16:08] <howlymowly> hi poeple..  short question: i've got a little package problem which is: dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/plasma-widgets-addons_4%3a4.5.1-0ubuntu3_amd64.deb (--unpack):
[16:08] <howlymowly>  trying to overwrite '/usr/share/kde4/services/plasma-applet-systemloadviewer.desktop', which is also in package plasma-widget-system-status 0.6-0ubuntu1
[16:09] <howlymowly> (ahh yeah..  i use maverick btw)
[16:09] <howlymowly> Am i the only one haveing those problems?
[16:10] <howlymowly> that's when apt-get tries to upgrade the plasma-widget-addons
[16:10] <howlymowly> package
[16:13] <howlymowly> any idea about this? or do  just have to wait until a non-broken package is released?
[16:13] <shadeslayer> Riddell: ppa package doesnt work for me :(
[16:14] <Riddell> shadeslayer: what happens?
[16:15] <ScottK> howlymowly: Looks like a bug in plasma-widget-system-status
[16:15] <ScottK> It should be safe to force that.
[16:15] <shadeslayer> Riddell: well.. i can call the other guy and everything, no sound from either end
[16:16] <shadeslayer> same thing via googles new plugin works
[16:16] <Riddell> shadeslayer: fooey, I guess srtp is needed
[16:18] <howlymowly> ScottK: How do I force the install?
[16:18] <howlymowly> with dpkg --force or something like that?
[16:18] <howlymowly> or is this also possible with apt-get?
[16:19] <ScottK> Something like --force-overwrite.
[16:19] <ScottK> You could also just remove plasma-widget-system-status
[16:22] <howlymowly> ScottK: of course..   jesus why haven#t I thought of that simple solution hehe   thx
[16:28] <ScottK> Riddell: I think it's worth mentioning in the release meeting that we're looking at another mesa update. Among other things it appears to fix Bug 633406.
[16:29] <Riddell> ScottK: yep, already got that
[16:30] <ScottK> Cool.
[16:38] <Riddell> rbelem: release meeting time.  any update on samba support?
[16:38] <jefferai> Riddell: thanks for releasing that updated Amarok build
[16:38] <Riddell> jefferai: thanks for informing us of the issue
[16:39] <rbelem> Riddell, i made the changes that agateau asked
[16:39] <rbelem> Riddell, and now i'm working on the ui
[16:41] <rbelem> Riddell, i think that today i will finish the ui
[16:41] <Riddell> ooh
[16:41] <rbelem> :-)
[16:41] <jefferai> Riddell: I hate having to send patches to packagers, and we've done that twice with 2.3.2, but better than having unhappy users right?
[16:42] <ScottK> Definitely.
[16:44] <shadeslayer> Riddell: when do the final blueprints come on to launchpad?
[16:44] <Riddell> final blueprints?
[16:45] <Riddell> we write the blueprints at or shortly after UDS
[16:45] <shadeslayer> oh
[16:46] <shadeslayer> hmm.. i thought blueprints were discussed @ UDS
[16:49] <ScottK> shadeslayer: You have a discussion and then write up the spec based on the results of the discussion.
[16:51] <shadeslayer> ah i see
[16:51] <shadeslayer> ScottK: what do we discuss? :D ...
[16:52] <shadeslayer> do we have some stuff decided before hand for that?
[16:52] <ScottK> There's the LP part of blueprint, which is essentially a stub.  That gets the session scheduled.  Then the details go on a page on the wiki.
[16:53] <shadeslayer> ah
[16:53] <shadeslayer> when do the blueprints come up on LP then?
[16:56] <Riddell> we can register them whenever we want
[16:56] <Riddell> but probably best to start with a wiki page
[16:56] <Riddell> feel free to make one
[17:02] <Riddell> shadeslayer: hint :)
[17:03] <shadeslayer> Riddell: yep sure
[17:05] <Riddell> ScottK: since the kubuntu-mobile stuff is in main now it seems like we can get rid of our messy kubuntu-meta set up
[17:05] <ScottK> Riddell: Agreed.
[17:06]  * Riddell makes it so
[17:06] <CIA-116> [muon] jmthomas * 1179119 * trunk/extragear/sysadmin/muon/ (ChangeLog TODO) Update TODO and ChangeLog
[17:23] <lex79> shadeslayer: https://bugs.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/+bug/645839
[17:23] <shadeslayer> lex79: we dont have a package for new kdevelop :(
[17:23] <lex79> shadeslayer: why ?
[17:24] <shadeslayer> lex79: because no one has looked into it yet and i was thinking of doing it tonight
[17:24] <neversfelde> I cannot reach launchpad, if it is ok again soon, I could have a look at kdevelop
[17:25]  * shadeslayer might look into it after he is done with wiki page.. which is soonish
[17:26] <lex79> shadeslayer: next time I suggest to don't upload kdevplatform if kdevelop is not ready
[17:26] <shadeslayer> ok ..
[17:26]  * shadeslayer looks into kdevelop
[17:27] <shadeslayer> neversfelde: or are you done with it? :P
[17:27] <neversfelde> shadeslayer: no launchpad for me
[17:27] <shadeslayer> Riddell: lex79 ScottK apachelogger https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UDSNatty
[17:27] <neversfelde> do not know why
[17:27] <shadeslayer> neversfelde: alright ill get cracking
[17:27] <ScottK> shadeslayer: It ought to be in the /kubuntu namespace.
[17:28] <shadeslayer> ScottK: ok ill move it
[17:31] <shadeslayer> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/kubuntu/UDSNatty
[17:46] <shadeslayer> lex79: i dont think we can close bugs with ppa packages right?
[17:46] <shadeslayer> or since the bug is reported against ~kubuntu-ppa, that can be done?
[17:46] <lex79> dunno, usually I close manually
[17:47] <ScottK> Has to be done manually.
[17:49] <dasKreech> Hmmm
[17:49] <dasKreech> Can kate do an enumeration?
[17:50] <dasKreech> Take a line and copy it 45 times with a progressive change of a letter/number ?
[17:50] <Riddell> don't think so
[17:51] <lex79> libqt4-multimedia is gone, but which package replaces it?
[17:51]  * markey is planning to install Maverick 64-bit on his new box
[17:51] <markey> can it be recommended already? or too unstable?
[17:52] <Riddell> should be fine I'd say, although today's daily-live CD doesn't work
[17:52] <markey> oh
[17:52] <markey> Mamarok: ^
[17:52] <markey> Mamarok: did you download the daily-live?
[17:53] <shadeslayer> lex79: cp: cannot stat `debian/tmp/usr/bin/kdevelop.bin': No such file or directory >> :O
[17:53] <shadeslayer> no kdevelop.bin :P
[17:54] <lex79> maybe just kdevelop instead of kdevelop.bin ?
[17:54] <shadeslayer> yeah i guess...
[17:54] <Riddell> kdevelop.bin sounds wrong
[17:55] <shadeslayer> why did they have 2 files anyways?
[17:55] <shadeslayer> Riddell: its there in the old packagign
[17:55] <shadeslayer> *packaging
[17:58] <CIA-116> [muon] jmthomas * 1179142 * trunk/extragear/sysadmin/muon/ (17 files in 3 dirs) (log message trimmed)
[17:58] <CIA-116> Add a kded module that for now acts as a distribution upgrade checker.
[17:58] <CIA-116> Eventually it'll also do update notifications. This kded module is heavily based
[18:01] <Riddell> shadeslayer: I've no idea
[18:01] <Riddell> bug in the build system maybe
[18:01] <shadeslayer> no like.. it was added in the kdevelop.install file :D
[18:02] <CIA-116> [muon] jmthomas * 1179144 * trunk/extragear/sysadmin/muon/kded/distupgradeevent/notused Not relevant to muon-notifier
[18:07] <Mamarok> markey: nope, the beta
[18:07] <markey> great :)
[18:08] <markey> meanwhile, I'm at the 4th DVD of creating install disks for Windows 7 OEM :((
[18:08] <markey> this takes hours
[18:08] <markey> freaking Microsoft....
[18:08] <markey> I mean, how lame is that
[18:09] <shadeslayer> markey: took me 4 hours to upgrade from vista to 7
[18:09] <shadeslayer> thats when i decided ive had enough
[18:09] <shadeslayer> its kubuntu all the way now :)
[18:13] <Sput> interesting. Windows 7 Enteprise is only one DVD
[18:14] <Sput> +r
[18:21] <dasKreech> Sput: They are all one DVD
[18:22] <dasKreech> it's the same DVD
[18:22] <dasKreech> Just dependson how much you paid decides what gets installed or enabled
[18:26] <shadeslayer> lex79: kdevelop done.. uploading
[18:26] <lex79> thanks
[18:30] <Sput> so why is markey then burning 4 DVDs?
[18:31] <ScottK> He's into pain?
[18:32] <Sput> that too
[18:32] <Sput> that fact manifests itself in more than one way :P
[18:35] <shadeslayer> lex79: erm one secc.. just realised one thing
[18:35] <markey> Sput: cause it's the OEM version, it doesn't come with install DVDs
[18:36] <markey> not that I really use Windows much, but...
[18:36] <markey> I paid for it after all
[18:36] <shadeslayer> lex79: build dep : kdevplatform-dev (>= 1.0.2), : should i change that to latest version?
[18:36] <markey> so I won't throw it away
[18:36] <shadeslayer> that is 1.0.82
[18:36] <lex79> yes
[18:37] <shadeslayer> ok.. good thing i just double checked it
[18:37] <lex79> ensure you are building against 1.0.82
[18:37] <lex79> ok
[18:37] <shadeslayer> yep
[18:37]  * Sput never paid for windows
[18:37] <Sput> and no, I also don't run pirated software :P
[18:38] <markey> Sput: microsoft tax... it was bundled with the lappy
[18:38] <Sput> ah right, I paid for it once then, with my very first lappy 10 years ago
[18:38] <markey> :)
[18:38] <Sput> all my other lappys are paid for by $work
[18:38] <Sput> and the desktop boxen are self-made
[18:39] <Sput> plus the one gameloader I have installed I got for free
[18:39] <ScottK> Riddell: Would you please remove plasma-widget-system-status source and binary from Maverick.  It's part of kdeplasma-addons now. (thus the problem  howlymowly_ was having earlier).
[18:39] <Riddell> ok
[18:39] <ScottK> Thanks.
[18:40] <Riddell> done
[18:40] <ScottK> Cool.
[18:47] <lex79> Riddell: in kpk there is a patch debian-changes-0.6.1, can I remove? it's po translations.why is there?
[18:55]  * ScottK is taking care of updating conflicts/replaces etc in kdeplasma-addons.
[18:56] <shadeslayer> ok kdevelop uploaded
[18:56] <shadeslayer> ( both maverick and lucid )
[18:57] <lex79> good
[18:57] <sheytan> hey
[18:57] <sheytan> did someone already tested lucid->maverick upgrade?
[18:57] <shadeslayer> lex79: sorry for the delay and problem in kdevelop
[18:58] <markey> Sput: guess what: after 2 hours of messing with Windows, it fails to recognize the DVDs it created itself
[18:58] <lex79> shadeslayer: it can happen, no problem ;)
[18:58] <Sput> markey: tell news
[18:58] <markey> at this point this calls for a:
[18:58] <markey> SCREW IT
[18:58] <ScottK> sheytan: I have, but more testing is always a good idea.  Because package upgrade sequence is somewhat random, file level conflicts in packages don't show up every upgrade.  More tries is better.
[18:59] <shadeslayer> markey: lol
[18:59] <markey> you know, installing Kubuntu takes 20 minutes. Windows: 3 hours and your sanity
[18:59] <markey> this is madness.
[18:59] <Sput> markey: I could have installed a full Gentoo in the time you wasted for creating DVDs!
[18:59] <markey> no shit
[18:59] <shadeslayer> markey: another 3 hours to install drivers and crap
[18:59] <ScottK> It's so sad when I talk to people who just can't believe there might really be a better way than what they have become used to with Windows.
[18:59] <markey> if I ever need Windows, I'll fetch the freaking thing from Pirate Bay, and run it in a VM
[18:59] <markey> case closed
[19:00] <Sput> my gameloader tells me it has new updates every time I boot it, and then fails installing said upgrades
[19:00] <sheytan> ScottK i'll try upgrade one now ;)
[19:00] <shadeslayer> ok lunchpad ate my lucid upload i think
[19:00] <sheytan> + i'll install some sofwtware
[19:00] <Sput> googling for the error code made me download some obscure MS tool (after going through that genuine advantage crap), running that for an hour "to fix possible problems", and the problem still being around afterwards
[19:00] <sheytan> shadeslayer everyone gets hungry sometimes :)
[19:00]  * markey installs Maverick
[19:01] <sheytan> markey good choice :D
[19:01] <shadeslayer> ah its up now
[19:01] <markey> first time using an SSD. /me excited
[19:01] <shadeslayer> off to sleep now... cya
[19:02] <markey> nite shadeslayer
[19:02] <shadeslayer> markey: use BTRFS on SSD's
[19:02] <CIA-116> [muon] jmthomas * 1179169 * trunk/extragear/sysadmin/muon/kded/ (9 files in 2 dirs) Add an UpdateEvent plugin for muon-notifier. It's almost working, but knotify is being a bit finicky about actually giving Plasma something to notify about...
[19:02] <shadeslayer> i hear its really awesome on SSD's
[19:02] <markey> shadeslayer: maybe another time, still a bit too early
[19:02] <shadeslayer> quite crappy on a HDD tho
[19:02] <markey> I need this box for work
[19:02] <shadeslayer> ah :P
[19:02] <markey> can't risk instability
[19:02]  * sheytan needs to close 10 gimp projects before virtual box. Only 4gigs of ram
[19:03] <shadeslayer> i wish it were possible to boot a linux kernel and directly start a windows VM in your native resolution
[19:05] <sheytan> shadeslayer what's the problem in virtualbox?
[19:06] <sheytan> when you have guest additions, you can run native res.
[19:06] <sheytan> even 3d stuff
[19:06] <shadeslayer> sheytan: i have to boot K/Ubuntu -> login -> fire up VM -> then i can play
[19:06] <shadeslayer> instead just : Boot kernel with mods -> login to windows
[19:07] <sheytan> shadeslayer well, it's not so complicated and doesn't take that much time :P
[19:07] <shadeslayer> sheytan: i like what chrome OS does .. directly boots to the browser :)(
[19:07] <sheytan> really? :D
[19:07] <sheytan> will have to try that one ;D
[19:08] <shadeslayer> yep.. its really awesome if you want to just check your mails
[19:08] <shadeslayer> boots in 7-12 secs...
[19:08] <sheytan> shadeslayer my kubuntu wakes up faster i think :D
[19:08] <shadeslayer> login with gmail credentials -> voila! opens up gmail
[19:08] <sheytan> but, it takes some time to wifi reconnect
[19:08] <shadeslayer> sheytan: from suspend to ram?
[19:09] <sheytan> shadeslayer i don't really know. I just hit 'sleep' :D
[19:09] <shadeslayer> sheytan: http://hexxeh.net/
[19:09] <shadeslayer> wow its even better than the last time i saw it
[19:09] <shadeslayer> even has proxy options now ^_^
[19:10] <shadeslayer> ciao
[19:10] <sheytan> yeah
[19:21] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Did you do some docbook dtd fixes earlier in the cycle?
[19:36] <ScottK> Riddell: kdeplasma-addons is in the queue for yor review.
[19:50] <sheytan> Hey
[19:50] <sheytan> isn't there any more userfriendly way to upgrade kubuntu then this? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MaverickUpgrades/Kubuntu
[19:52] <ulysses> sheytan: I think there is only less user-friendly way
[19:52] <sheytan> ulysses well...
[19:52] <sheytan> i have to talk to dantti
[19:53] <ulysses> good to ask
[19:53] <sheytan> dantti dude, we need you :D
[19:53] <ulysses> there was an option to use 'update-manager-kde -d'
[19:53] <sheytan> yeah
[19:53] <sheytan> but, well, this isn't very good anyway
[19:54] <ulysses> but it has the same frontend that this crappy long command
[19:55] <ulysses> and in the software properties there isn't an option to choose what dist-upgrades should be appear (only LTS or normal releases also)
[20:05] <sheytan> ulysses in kpk it is now
[20:07] <Riddell> sheytan: after release users will get a notification rather than having to type a long complex command
[20:08] <sheytan> Riddell yep, know that. anyway i would like to see a nice qt ui to manage distro upgrades
[20:08] <Riddell> sheytan: what would you change?
[20:09] <sheytan> Riddell i would add a tab or a button to kpk updates kcm, that will allow to check if there's new distro release
[20:09] <sheytan> and we can have a warning when the next release is a development one
[20:10] <Riddell> sheytan: when you open kpackagekit it does check for updates
[20:10] <sheytan> Riddell but not for upgrade to a new kubuntu release
[20:10] <ScottK> shadeslayer: We don't want to show a development release in kpk.  People will upgrade to it accidentally.
[20:10] <Riddell> yes it does
[20:10] <ulysses> sheytan: maybe something like in Ubuntu, a presentation during the upgrade?
[20:10] <Riddell> after release
[20:11] <sheytan> Riddell oh yeah :D
[20:11] <sheytan> it really does :D
[20:12] <sheytan> well, if some power users want to test new upcoming release they can use konsole. I can live with that
[20:13] <Riddell> I'd like to see that command simplified though, maybe we should add a kubuntu-devel-distro-upgrade script with that one line
[20:15] <sheytan> would be cool, too
[20:17] <dantti_work> sheytan: hey
[20:17] <sheytan> dantti_work jo :D
[20:17] <sheytan> i mean yo :D
[20:18] <ScottK> Riddell: Thanks.
[20:18] <dantti_work> sheytan: what's up?
[20:19] <sheytan> dantti_work well, i was about talk to you about the updates to new kubuntu release, but i think it's ok as it is now :)
[20:19] <sheytan> dantti_work btw kpk will be called AppGet, kpk or Apper in maverick
[20:19] <dantti_work> sheytan: right :)
[20:19] <sheytan> ?
[20:20] <dantti_work> sheytan: KPackageKit in maverick
[20:20] <dantti_work> and probably Apper on the next one :D
[20:20] <CIA-116> [muon] jmthomas * 1179190 * trunk/extragear/sysadmin/muon/kded/event.cpp Setting the right KComponentData name might help...
[20:20] <sheytan> dantti_work well for me it will be always called somply 'software' translated to polish ;)
[20:20] <sheytan> but glad you like my idea :D
[20:21] <dantti_work> sheytan: I really disklike translating apps name
[20:22] <dantti_work> dolphin in portuguese sounds soo weird
[20:22] <sheytan> dantti_work how? :D
[20:22] <sheytan> i'll try to read it :D
[20:22] <dantti_work> Golfinho
[20:22] <sheytan> oh :D
[20:23] <JontheEchidna> a 'G'!!!11!1!
[20:23] <sheytan> dantti_work if you read 'who you' in polish fast, it sounds like a really bad polish word, so :D
[20:31] <ulysses> Why told me software-properties-kde after adding Canonical partner repositories, that „Successfully removed”?:P
[20:33] <sheytan> 4 minutes of downloading updates to maverick. going to watch some tv now :D
[20:33] <sheytan> brb
[20:54] <lex79> JontheEchidna: muon is released from branch or from trunk?
[20:54] <lex79> JontheEchidna: should I get the template from svn://anonsvn.kde.org/home/kde/branches/stable/l10n-kde4/templates/messages/extragear-sysadmin templates-extragear-sysadmin-stable
[20:54] <lex79> ?
[20:55] <JontheEchidna> branch is for the stable release (1.0.x)
[20:55] <JontheEchidna> trunk will have some new strings and possible some changed
[20:56] <JontheEchidna> trunk will need to be translated before 1.1 is released (not sure when), but I'll announce a string freeze at least 2 or 3 weeks in advance before then
[20:56] <ulysses> let's see it
[20:58] <JontheEchidna> see what?
[20:58] <ulysses> those new strings
[20:58] <JontheEchidna> oh
[20:58] <lex79> JontheEchidna: ok thanks, I had a doubt with pinotree :)
[20:58] <JontheEchidna> lex79: right now branch is priority, I'd think
[20:59] <lex79> I translated the trunk instead of the branch
[20:59] <lex79> good good :D
[21:00] <JontheEchidna> brb, testing muon-notifier means restarting kded which means losing network connection :/
[21:01] <lex79> Riddell: what I have to do with your debian-changes patch in kpk?
[21:05] <lex79> I will keep it :)
[21:16] <Riddell> lex79: how do you mean?
[21:16] <Riddell> it's translations, you can update them with make -f debian/rules fetch_translations
[21:17] <lex79> Riddell: ah ok, and it will create a patch debian-changes-0.6.1+svn1176533 ? see your last upload of kpk
[21:18] <Riddell> lex79: it'll create a patch with the current version number
[21:18] <lex79> ok
[21:22] <sheytan> ScottK upgrade successful ;)
[21:22] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Great.
[21:24] <eMyller> ...and i broke my system today. \o/
[21:24] <eMyller> bad, bad xorg.
[21:25] <sheytan> ScottK you guys always have to mislead me with shadeslayer :D
[21:25] <sheytan> eMyller i've got a job for you :D
[21:25] <ScottK> sheytan: Sorry.  Sput needs to make better tab completion.
[21:26] <sheytan> ScottK no problem ;D
[21:26] <eMyller> sheytan: yay! show me
[21:26] <sheytan> eMyller well, you already saw it... It's the html5 player ;)
[21:27] <eMyller> sheytan: oh
[21:27] <eMyller> ok, i'll play with it asap
[21:27] <eMyller> did you get a flash version?
[21:27] <sheytan> eMyller flash will be youtube ;)
[21:28] <eMyller> okay
[21:28] <eMyller> simpler :P
[21:28] <sheytan> yep ;D
[21:28] <eMyller> the new player widget is not that ugly.
[21:28] <sheytan> and faster in some countries
[21:28] <eMyller> just doesn't fit perfectly in the design, but well
[21:28] <sheytan> eMyller our will shine :D
[21:29] <sheytan> but i'll remake it anyway
[21:29] <sheytan> eMyller do you need svg or pngs are ok to this?
[21:29] <eMyller> does it have any transparency? if yes, i need a png of it with transparent canvas
[21:30] <eMyller> anyway, send me a pack with both svg and png versions :)
[21:30] <sheytan> eMyller well, buttons and the progress bar are transparetn
[21:30] <sheytan> eMyller there are no svgs right now ;)
[21:30] <eMyller> no problem
[21:31] <eMyller> just send me something i can slice
[21:31] <sheytan> sure, give me few minutes ;)
[21:31] <eMyller> dont rush
[21:31] <eMyller> i can't work on it right now
[21:32] <lex79> ScottK: can you accept kpk? it doesn't work if you set the mouse to use the double click
[21:32] <lex79> now it works
[21:32] <ScottK> dantti_work: Did you review the change ^^^
[21:32] <ScottK> lex79: I can, but I'd like an upstream ack.
[21:33] <dantti_work> ScottK: well I fixed that, then somehow it broke again, I think you could upload a newer svn version instead of patching
[21:34] <dantti_work> it has more fixes that just that one
[21:34] <lex79> ScottK: I removed the patch that I added in 0.6.1-0ubuntu2 since went to upstream
[21:34] <ScottK> lex79: Why don't you check with what dantti_work has in svn and see if it's worth taking that instead?
[21:34] <lex79> ScottK: then Riddell  in 0.6.1+svn1176533-0ubuntu1 screw up the patch :)
[21:35] <ScottK> Still no diff in LP anyway and I need to go.
[21:35] <ScottK> Back later.
[21:36] <sheytan> eMyller i'll send you the images, and you'll work when you'll have time :)
[21:36] <eMyller> deal :)
[21:39] <eMyller> hm... something cool to konsole: add an option to save session; so i don't need to rename all the tabs again and again
[21:43] <sheytan> eMyller email?
[21:44] <sheytan> eMyller http://www.sendspace.com/file/7euf8j :)
[21:48] <eMyller> sheytan: sorry, was afk
[21:49] <eMyller> sheytan: evandromyller at gmail at ubuntuone
[21:49] <eMyller> just in case :)
[21:49] <sheytan> eMyller sure :)
[21:49] <sheytan> eMyller thank you and i'm going to sleep now :)
[21:49] <sheytan> so let me knowwhen you code some :)
[21:49] <eMyller> sure
[21:49] <sheytan> good night guys :)
[21:50] <eMyller> nite dude
[21:58] <CIA-116> [muon] jmthomas * 1179218 * trunk/extragear/sysadmin/muon/ (4 files in 3 dirs) Give more info about the available updates in the notification


[01:39] <mushtar> does cloud-init work with yum?
[11:18] <harmw> sure, it uses yum to install additional packages


[07:19] <Babloyi> how do I manually change the date? The ui thing just keeps resetting to the current date, even after I set it to manual and change it


[18:42] <Reventlov> Hello
[18:42] <Reventlov> Can I prevent the network config to be written after the first boot ?
[18:46] <minimal> Reventlov: *after* the 1st boot or during the 1st boot?
[18:47] <Reventlov> well, I need cloud-init to configure network only once, so I want to disable it after it has configured the network once
[18:48] <Reventlov> https://0x0.st/oapl.txt this is my conf right now, but i'm not sure which parts handle the network
[18:48] <minimal> which DataSource are you using?
[18:49] <minimal> also your config has "distro: nixos". I don't believe cloud-init currently has NixOS support so are you using someone's patched version of cloud-init?
[18:50] <Reventlov> config drive
[18:51] <Reventlov> the patch is provided by my distribution, yes: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/634141959076a8ab69ca2cca0f266852256d79ee/pkgs/tools/virtualization/cloud-init/0001-add-nixos-support.patch
[18:51] <Reventlov> but that should not be such a problem, no ?
[18:51] <Reventlov> or maybe there is not a way to disable the network configuration that's standard across cloud-init ?
[18:52] <minimal> so where is the network config coming from? Unlike NoCloud I don't believe ConfigDrive support providing a network-config YAML file
[18:53] <Reventlov> well, i'm actually using proxmox that exposes the data as a /dev/sr0 in the system, isn't this configdrive ?
[18:56] <minimal> that can be either configdrive or nocloud - what's the ISO label? "cidata" or "configdrive" ?
[18:56] <minimal> oops s/configdrive/config-2/
[18:58] <Reventlov> sr0    iso9660       cidata 2022-05-21-19-55-37-00                     0   100% /mnt
[18:58] <minimal> that's NoCloud then
[18:59] <minimal> which can include a network-config file - is there one there?
[19:03] <minimal> assuming there is a network-config in the ISO then I believe it should only be used on 1st boot
[19:04] <minimal> that Nix packaging is 21.4, a couple of releases behind current, but it should still work as expected
[19:30] <minimal> Reventlov: ^^^
[19:35] <Reventlov> i'm looking into that, that might be the nixos service that sucks, thanks for the details :)
[19:35] <Reventlov> (there is actually a network-config in the ISO)
[19:44] <minimal> so when you say you only want to configure the network once, what do you mean? the contents of the network-config file in the ISO should be applied. Is the contents changing on each reboot?


[01:04] <temp> anyone had experience with a 'leadtek dongle gold' not working after an 'sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get upgrade' ?
[01:04] <temp> it looks like the '/dev/dvb/' heirarchy is not getting created.
[01:05] <temp> actually I just saw the previous persons message, I'll check '/var/log/apt/history.log'
[01:07] <temp> http://pastebin.com/rTLkErsS
[01:08] <temp> my guess is it might have something to do with the line: Remove: linux-firmware-nonfree:amd64 (1.11ubuntu2)
[01:08] <temp> although a few lines down it has: "Install: linux-firmware-nonfree:amd64 (1.11ubuntu2)"
[01:12] <temp> here is the output from dmesg: http://pastebin.com/DThCn6M4


[05:32] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[06:17] <ducasse> good morning all
[06:41] <lotuspsychje> xorg now default on bionic dailys guys
[06:42] <lotuspsychje> spread the word :p
[09:20] <etyrnal> is it ok to discuss ubuntu as relates to kludging ubuntu onto SBCs here?
[09:24] <tomreyn> based on the channel topic, i would think so
[09:34] <lordievader> lotuspsychje: X? Wasn't the plan to switch to wayland? Has that been reversed?
[09:38] <tomreyn> yes, it was reverse for the default configuration
[09:38] <tomreyn> *reverseD
[09:53] <tomreyn> it's Neo time!
[11:39] <pauljw> hi everyone
[13:52] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[14:09] <pauljw> morning BluesKaj :)
[14:10] <BluesKaj> hi pauljw :-)
[14:46] <tomreyn> another day, another gopal highlighting random supporters
[16:14] <ducasse> afternoon, all
[16:15] <daftykins> \o
[16:18] <ducasse> hiya daftykins - how's life? just came home here.
[16:18] <daftykins> ooh where y'been? very ace here ta :)
[16:20] <ducasse> shopping across the swedish border :)
[18:36] <daftykins> !info kodi artful
[18:36] <daftykins> O_.
[20:34] <daftykins> !info libva-glx1 bionic
[20:34] <daftykins> !info libva-dev bionic


[10:10] <dpm> good morning all
[10:10] <TLE> good morning
[10:11] <udienz> rejected, afternoon in here :)
[10:13] <dpm> :)


[00:05] <katnip> very few updates today
[03:34] <howarth> Why is the bionic using such an old linux 4.15.0 kernel release instead of the current 4.15.15?  We seem to be missing a slew of fixes like https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/10279307/  which would make suspending more reliable.
[03:41] <flocculant> howarth: I'm on 4.15.0-15-generic - which I guess will come out of -proposed soonish
[03:45] <howarth> Okay, I guess current is -13
[03:45] <howarth> I just checked kernel's git and 4.15.13 doesn't have that fix
[03:46] <howarth> I am hoping the Gnome 3.28 suspend issue may have nudge a decent number of fixes into the kernel recently like that
[03:47] <howarth> I wish it was easier to cherry pick out of proposed instead of taking everything.
[03:48] <howarth> I haven't been able to find a web view of the repo outside of hash directories for direct downloads
[03:49] <howarth> And https://packages.ubuntu.com/ doesn't seem to have -proposed as an option to search
[03:55] <flocculant> howarth: I either reinstall 'a thing' when proposed is enabled or synaptic
[03:57] <krytarik> howarth: It appears the fix you are looking for is already in the current Ubuntu kernel though: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+changelog
[04:02] <howarth> Went ahead and switch on proposed. Hopefully the churn won't be as bad now that the release is slushy
[04:02] <howarth> Surprised mesa isn't out of the rc releases yet though
[04:04] <krytarik> (And by "current" I meant in 'release' btw.)
[04:04] <howarth> I guess you can toggle 'proposed' back off and hope everything eventually syncs up in 'updates'
[04:05] <howarth> rebooting
[04:08] <phoenix_firebrd> final beta released?
[04:09] <katnip> dont you guys keep up with updating?
[04:10] <katnip> they've said if you keep updating, you'll have the final in the end
[04:10] <phoenix_firebrd> i want to test iso
[04:10] <katnip> i couldnt tell ya  then :)
[04:10] <howarth> Okay, now to see if that stabilizes suspend on a Radeon HD2600XT
[04:11] <katnip> i just keep apt updating
[04:11] <flocculant> phoenix_firebrd: no - not yet
[04:11] <phoenix_firebrd> flocculant: major show stoppers?
[04:11] <howarth> Also puzzled out the Google Chrome indicator under bionic. Installing the Unite chrome shell extension brings it back.
[04:11] <flocculant> and rather pointless to look at it anyway - it'll be out of date pretty quickly
[04:11] <flocculant> phoenix_firebrd: no idea - I do Xubuntu
[04:12] <howarth> Unite also shove them all to the right making it looks a bit more like Unity.
[04:12] <phoenix_firebrd> afaik there where only 1 high
[04:14] <katnip> http://omgfoss.com/ubuntu18-04-lts-bionic-beaver-release/
[04:16] <katnip> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
[04:17] <katnip> there is your iso
[04:18] <katnip> final beta freeze was the 5th
[04:19] <howarth> Don't forget http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/pending/
[04:20] <howarth> Used that to get yesterdays
[04:20] <katnip> are the dates the same?
[04:20] <katnip> no wayland eh
[04:21] <howarth> I wish they would stop installing gnome components as snaps
[04:21] <katnip> ill switch over then
[04:21] <katnip> i run hexchat as a snap
[04:21] <howarth> They have some 3.26 snaps there instead of the 3.28 ones
[04:22] <katnip> my guess is by mid summer or fall
[04:22] <howarth>  gnome-calculator  gnome-characters  gnome-logs  gnome-system-monitor
[04:22] <katnip> i might be wrong, but i thought i saw the date for gnome 3.28 as in sept
[04:23] <katnip> need to log out and in
[04:23] <howarth> That is 3.30
[04:26] <katnip> ahh
[04:26] <katnip> well now night mode works under x-org
[04:28] <katnip> just noticed daily builds are in the topic, bhwhaha
[04:30] <katnip> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseSchedule < - also in topic, final beta this week
[04:32] <flocculant> and tomorrow it will be out of date ;)
[04:33] <katnip> i was kinda hoping for wayland tbh
[04:34] <katnip> however, i have noticed tonight the night mode / f.lux isnt working under wayland
[04:36] <valorie> the point of alphas and betas is to get testing, and in particular get bugs fixed
[04:37] <valorie> the installer is so important for a good release
[04:37] <flocculant> people can do all that with dailies - unfortunately eveeryone is primed to want alphas/betas
[04:37] <katnip> good to be reminded of that valorie
[04:38] <katnip> flocculant, it appears as though, there is 1 beta and a final beta
[04:38] <flocculant> katnip: for flavours only
[04:38] <katnip> and possibly a RC
[04:39] <flocculant> ubuntu only does final beta
[04:39] <flocculant> then everyone does RC
[04:39] <katnip> i was just only looking at the link above
[04:39] <valorie> flocculant: but deadlines help people get those bugs get fixed
[04:40] <valorie> we could do it with "test the daily day" maybe once per month
[04:40] <valorie> but there wouldn't be the urgency
[04:42] <valorie> we could all agree to do them together, and build that urgency
[04:42] <flocculant> there would be if we trained testers
[04:42] <valorie> but then what's the difference between that and the milestones?
[04:42] <valorie> I think our testers are getting better and faster
[04:43] <flocculant> valorie: actually I'd prefer a roll your own milestone - where a flavour can turn off build when it suits them
[04:43] <valorie> I know I am much more efficient
[04:43] <flocculant> anyway - I think we've had this discussion a while ago :D
[04:43] <flocculant> with tsimonq2 iirc
[04:43] <valorie> flocculant: why not throw that idea out? I bet a lot of flavor leads would follow you
[04:43] <valorie> if the release team supports it
[04:44] <flocculant> I think Adam wanted to discuss stuff next cycle (iirc)
[04:44] <valorie> right, tsimonq2 doesn't like the milestones much either
[04:44] <valorie> cool
[04:44] <valorie> I'm willing to talk, listen, think together
[04:44]  * flocculant too
[04:44] <valorie> having a week to test instead of waiting around until the magic hour
[04:45] <valorie> would be so much better
[04:47] <flocculant> I'll think about kick-starting a discussion early in the cantankerous ciacada cycle
[04:48] <flocculant> going to be too many c's after bionic releases ...
[04:49] <katnip> ill show my age a little here, i remember this +1 channel yrs ago, i upgraded so to say, and within 2 days, my system was garbage, so i think this has come a long way to have a working system at this point.
[04:50] <flocculant> katnip: iirc that's a lot to do with how they deal with proposed packages now
[04:51] <katnip> not surprised
[04:51] <katnip> it's much better
[04:51] <flocculant> indeed
[04:52] <katnip> i started with linux in '99, speaking of a nightmare, redhat and debian, slackware too
[04:54] <katnip> i left linux in '05 though due to illness and came back last year, quite impressed at the improvements made
[05:01] <Bashing-om> http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-18-04-lts-bionic-beaver-final-beta-released-available-for-download-now-520571.shtml .
[05:08] <katnip> i like the 'darker' theme
[05:09] <katnip> i see you do not really need flux and night light now
[05:13] <fkorling> I'm trying to upgrade a unattended install from xenial to bionic beta, but having problem with the partioning. The installer stops at the "Installation type" screen, waiting for input. Any changes to partman in bionic?
[07:11] <Guest82229> Hi, question about snaps... I see that there are multiple mounted versions of the gnome calc app. Is this normal ?
[12:53] <tomreyn> !bug
[12:55] <hitchhiker54> hey all, is launchpad still the place to file a report for 18.04 beta 2? No crash or major issue, just an oddity with minimal installation and software center
[12:57] <flocculant> hitchhiker54: yes - ubuntu-bug <package>
[12:59] <hitchhiker54> cheers. amusingly software center doesnt know firefox is installed
[14:15] <howarth> No joy with the proposed update 4.15.15 kernel eliminating the suspend issues on the HD2600XT radeon.
[14:16] <howarth> Still see an occasional checkerboard (B&W) when coming out of suspend.
[14:16] <howarth> Any suggestions of kernel arguments to make suspend play better with ACPI?
[14:17] <howarth> This is on a 2008 MacPro FYI.
[15:05] <brainwash> howarth: I would test with 4.16 from http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v4.16/
[15:09] <howarth> I guess there is no ppa for that as a repo
[15:29] <Exterminador> help! yesterday I've installed Nvidia drivers on Xubuntu. then I decided to uninstall them. after rebooting the laptop, everything appears huge on the screen! any ideas?
[15:30] <flocculant> Exterminador: I absolutely have because I had the same issue ...
[15:30] <flocculant> let me find the info
[15:31] <Ian_Corne> That sounds like no driver loaded
[15:31] <Exterminador> oh. and weirdly my screen appears as only 640x480
[15:31] <flocculant> Ian_Corne: almost
[15:31] <Ian_Corne> so it's resorting to a very small resolution
[15:32] <Exterminador> I've even installed nouveau-firmware and no cigar
[15:32] <flocculant> Exterminador: check in /etc/modprobe.d for a nvidia file - I had it left after nvidia uninstall - it was blacklisting nouveau
[15:32] <Exterminador> right away
[15:33] <flocculant> if there is one - and remocing said leftover fixes it - what version of nvidia did you install?  I bug reported against nvidia-340
[15:33] <Exterminador> yeah. there's a nvidia-340.conf there
[15:33] <flocculant> \o/
[15:34] <Exterminador> so, deleting it and reboot solves the problem?
[15:34] <flocculant> either remove it completely or move it somewhere like desktop
[15:34] <flocculant> did for me - can you me to bug 1761593
[15:36] <flocculant> assuming that fixes it for you :)
[15:37] <Exterminador> flocculant: that did the trick! thanks a lot!
[15:38] <flocculant> np - don't forget to me too the bug please - that'll confirm the issue
[15:38] <Exterminador> perhaps we should use '--purge' while apt remove?
[15:38] <flocculant> shouldn't need to do that for it afaik
[15:39] <flocculant> a file got left ehind by nvidia - not one of of the dependencies I think
[15:46] <Exterminador> well, I've done my contribution in the bug ;)
[15:46] <Exterminador> thanks a lot again, flocculant
[15:47] <flocculant> cool and glad I could help :)
[15:58] <Exterminador> I was like, WTF, when I've rebooted the laptop.
[16:03] <Exterminador> it's amazing how such a new OS version can run so smoothly on my ancient laptop
[16:03] <flocculant> nice - and you're just the sort of person Xubuntu is after - new testers ;)
[16:06] <Exterminador> didn't experienced much troubles on my daily use. just that one today. I'm having a few issues with Stremio but I don't know if it's Xubuntu fault or not.
[16:06] <flocculant> well - never heard of it :p
[16:08] <Exterminador> it's a stream application to watch series and movies. but now, when I try to search for a movie/series, the "cover" simply doesn't appear. weird tho
[16:09] <Exterminador> also having troubles with Appimage of the program. it simply doesn't start. :/
[16:11] <flocculant> not sure about those things tbh
[16:13] <tomreyn> Exterminador, flocculant: if you run "dpkg -S /etc/modprobe.d/nvidia-340.conf" and it outputs something then this file belongs to a package you still have installed (or whose configuration were not yet purged)
[16:14] <flocculant> tomreyn: too late for me for sure
[16:15] <Exterminador> well, I've done apt remove nvidia*, then it said that some packages weren't needed no more and to do "apt autoremove", which I've done. but still, the file was there after all that steps. I can reinstall the drivers and do it all again
[16:16] <nacc> Exterminador: remove or purge?
[16:16] <nacc> Exterminador: remove may leave some files around, depending on the file
[16:16] <nacc> I think, in particular, conf files
[16:16] <Exterminador> I've done just "apt remove nvidia*"
[16:17] <nacc> Exterminador: right, that doesn't remove configuration files (iirc)
[16:17] <Exterminador> so, "apt remove --purge"?
[16:17] <nacc> Exterminador: apt purge
[16:18] <Exterminador> well, I can try to install it in a bit and do that and see if the problem persists
[16:18]  * flocculant wanders off to do that on the 'let this install break partition'
[16:31] <flocculant> nacwell - that all happened again
[16:31] <flocculant> nacc: ^^
[16:32] <nacc> flocculant: the same stray file(s)?
[16:32] <flocculant> seems that after additional drivers reinstalls nouveau - that blacklist file is still there
[16:32] <flocculant> there were some packages to autoremove - did that - still there
[16:32] <nacc> flocculant: autoremove won't purge
[16:33] <flocculant> why should I need to purge?
[16:33] <flocculant> well
[16:33] <nacc> flocculant: because config files aren't removed otherwise
[16:33] <nacc> flocculant: i think you need to call `sudo apt-get remove --autoremove --purge` to do it?, not sure
[16:33] <flocculant> what I mean is - if nvidia is leaving a blacklist - then additional drivers should do that
[16:34] <flocculant> you and I know about apt - but bert up the road might not - he's just got 640x480px now
[16:34] <nacc> flocculant: additional drivers as in the dialgoue?
[16:34] <flocculant> yea
[16:34] <nacc> hrm, sorry, i hadn't read the backscroll all the way :)
[16:34] <nacc> so it's a matter of clicking then unclicking said dialogue?
[16:35] <flocculant> nacc: ftr - I've done this previously in this cycle and it worked fine - and during a and z and y cycles :)
[16:35] <nacc> in *theory*, i think apt is supposed to remove config files that are unmodified
[16:35] <nacc> so i wonder if it's a bheavioral change in apt
[16:35] <nacc> (see `man apt`, purge section
[16:35] <flocculant> possibly
[16:35] <flocculant> also not sure if it's just nvidia-340
[16:35] <nacc> flocculant: Exterminador: i'd file a bug, add tasks for apt, nvidia-340, and whatever owns taht GUI dialogue
[16:35] <flocculant> I guess tseliot would be the one to know
[16:36] <flocculant> nacc: ok
[16:36] <nacc> flocculant: it would be good to know if manually purging nvidia-340 fixes it
[16:36] <flocculant> nacc: right
[16:36] <flocculant> I'll just get a cup of tea and redo it in the more broken install partition :)
[16:37] <nacc> flocculant: :)
[16:37] <flocculant> then I can update the bug some more
[16:37] <BionicMac> Good day folks. How goes it? =)
[16:37] <nacc> flocculant: Exterminador: were you both using apt or apt-get?
[16:37] <nacc> i wonder also if it's a behavioral difference between them (technically allowed)
[16:40] <flocculant> nacc: I used the gui in software and updates - additional drivers - which is the normal (for non tech people) way
[16:40] <flocculant> mostly because I can't be bothered to work out which driver is for the card ;)
[16:40] <nacc> flocculant: right, but i don't know what that actually uses :)
[16:40]  * flocculant neither
[16:40] <flocculant> so in a moment I'll do it the techy way :p
[16:40] <nacc> heh
[16:41] <flocculant> if that's fine - then there is a problem with the gui method which I'm guessing -release would like to know about :d
[16:41] <flocculant> biab
[16:58] <vivid> so did you guys break dhcp
[16:59] <nacc> vivid: this is the support channel, not necessarily where developers live, so maybe re-ask the question, with details.
[16:59] <vivid> which details are missing?
[17:00] <nacc> vivid: any details?
[17:00] <nacc> vivid: no, dhcp is not broken, afaik
[17:01] <vivid> well its not working here after this mornings 81 packages of updates
[17:01] <nacc> vivid: logs? what kind of networking setup, etc/
[17:01] <vivid> everything is default
[17:01] <nacc> vivid: ubuntu or one of the flavors/
[17:07] <flocculant> nacc: well that was interesting
[17:08] <nacc> flocculant: how'd it go?
[17:08] <flocculant> so software & updates/additional drivers leaves behind files and thus 640x480px cos nouveau blacklisted - apt purge does as we would expect
[17:08] <flocculant> and it took a pot of tea ...
[17:09] <flocculant> I'll let infinity know
[17:09] <nacc> flocculant: strange, yeah --- that does seem like a regressions somewhere
[17:09] <flocculant> yup
[17:10] <flocculant> I don't really use nvidia tbh - only check it a couple of times a cycle - good timing perhaps :)
[17:17] <flocculant> nacc: I changed bug to software-properties - seems more logical
[17:17] <nacc> flocculant: yeah
[17:19] <flocculant> that's hopefully my good deed of the day - I can go be bad again :p
[17:20] <flocculant> would I guess be useful if someone with a different nvidia card could look
[17:20] <flocculant> but I guess it probably doesn't matter
[17:24] <Exterminador> sorry. I went afk. what do you need me to test?
[17:25] <flocculant> Exterminador: it's ok - you escaped at the right time - I did it :)
[17:25] <Exterminador> hahaha. that's what happens when kids are on your tail. xD
[17:25] <flocculant> :)
[17:27] <Exterminador> just wondering if anyone knows a backup system that can use Gdrive or Dropbox to store the backups automatically
[17:33] <ZaZaQR> hi
[17:34] <ZaZaQR> I'm using Ubuntu Bionic Beaver (development branch). whats the
[17:34] <ZaZaQR>                 differents between this and the last beta?
[17:34] <ZaZaQR> lastest
[17:42] <ZaZaQR> ?
[17:43] <nacc> ZaZaQR: if they are both fully updated, nothing
[17:43] <nacc> ZaZaQR: beta is just a point in time
[17:43] <flocculant> ZaZaQR: ubuntu has only had one beta anyway
[17:43] <flocculant> for some cycles now
[17:47] <ZaZaQR> oh ic
[18:57] <flocculant> nacc: just tried the same in 17.10.1 iso - works fine there
[18:57] <flocculant> from software-properties that is
[19:00] <LevierMRQ> Why +1, as it was a totaly revolutionary release?
[19:01] <nacc> flocculant: interesting
[19:01] <nacc> LevierMRQ: are you asking about flocculant's point?
[19:04] <LevierMRQ> nacc: wasnt.  Reading back a bit.
[19:04] <flocculant> nacc: yea indeed :)
[19:04] <nacc> LevierMRQ: ok, unclear who your question was directed to, and regarding what, then
[19:05] <flocculant> nacc: tagged it regression-update - not sure there's much more that I can do :)
[19:05] <nacc> flocculant: ack
[20:42] <maxb_> Bionic seems to have removed the ability to right-click using the bottom-right corner of my touchpad. Does anyone know how to get it back? Googling is less fruitful than I expected in this case.
[20:43] <nacc> maxb_: does tapping with two fingers (i use my pointer and middle) on the right-side of the touchpad work?
[20:44] <maxb_> two fingers works, independent of position, but that's not what
[20:44] <maxb_> .. I've spent the last few years being accustomed to
[20:44] <nacc> maxb_: sure
[20:44] <nacc> maxb_: just wondering
[20:44] <nacc> maxb_: can you check if you are using libinput or synaptic?
[20:45] <maxb_> synclient works ... is that an answer?
[20:46] <nacc> maxb_: yeah, that probably means you have xserver-xorg-input-synaptics installed
[20:46] <maxb_> 'xinput list' says 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'
[20:49] <maxb_> Behaviour seems the same after removing it and switching to libinput though
[20:50] <nacc> maxb_: you *might* need to reboot after switching it
[20:50] <nacc> maxb_: i really don't know
[20:51] <maxb_> I did (I'm on IRC via a bouncer)
[20:51] <nacc> maxb: ok
[20:51] <maxb> I think it's time to fall back on fetching my second machine that's still on artful, and diffing all the synclient properties before and after upgrade
[21:07] <Ian_Corne> I tied to install touchpad-indicator before, but it didn't launch
[21:08] <Ian_Corne> https://github.com/atareao/Touchpad-Indicator/issues/12#issuecomment-379371876
[21:11] <Ian_Corne> It's working now apparently :)
[21:17] <Ian_Corne> Don't see that option though
[21:50] <maxb> Well. First, I'd forgotten I'd upgraded my second laptop to bionic back in March. But it turns out bionic back in March was old enough to predate the issue.
[21:51] <maxb> A bionic->bionic intermediate upgrade managed to turn the touchpad off entirely!
[21:52] <maxb> Having fixed that, it appears that the main problem is that all the values for 'Synaptics Soft Button Areas' are getting zeroed out
[21:52] <nacc> maxb: hrm, weird
[22:02] <maxb> Weird indeed:
[22:02] <maxb> maxb@spectre:~$ grep SoftButton .local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log
[22:02] <maxb> [    23.969] (**) Option "SoftButtonAreas" "50% 0 82% 0 0 0 0 0"
[22:02] <maxb> maxb@spectre:~$ xinput list-props 11 | grep "Soft Button"
[22:02] <maxb> 	Synaptics Soft Button Areas (308):	0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0


[00:14] <hads> Yah, new frontend goes.
[00:14] <fishsponge_> hey people - how do i browse my music collection? i only seem to be able to play *all* tracks or no tracks...
[00:14] <hads> mythmusic is a little weird.
[00:15] <hads> It's a number key from memory to choose your playlist.
[00:16] <fishsponge_> well the number 3 lets me choose my playlist, but i get 4 options, and only one of them works - All Tracks!
[00:16] <fishsponge_> the other options do nothing...
[00:16] <fishsponge_> and a brief question - is mythTV a long, long way from being "simple" for the average user migrating from Windows Media Center?
[00:16] <fishsponge_> it certainly seems to be...
[00:17] <directhex> mythtv is significantly more featured, and mythmusic's ui sorta sucks.
[00:18] <hads> The UI is fine for mythtv main and mythvideo, the rest is a little confusing probably.
[00:18] <fishsponge_> hmm... how annoying... mainly because alhough MythTV seems to know what my tuner card is, it just doesn't pick up any channels, whereas it did with Windows XP!
[00:19] <fishsponge_> i guess i'll have to play around with it some more...
[00:19] <fishsponge_> time for bed now though... see ya!
[01:49] <frank23> is there a way to create a recording rule where only episodes with a title are recording and the generic ones (unspecified episode) are ignored?
[07:14] <cann> morning, anyone here using skystar2 (rev 2.6d) with mythubuntu, or any other dist ?
[07:16] <imabox> is it possible to obtain the comcast channel listings using mythtv?
[07:18] <imabox> i am trying with dvt tuner card setup, with my video sources grabbing from tranmitted guide (eit), using us-cable as my frequency table
[07:19] <imabox> when i scan for channels i use cable high as my frequency and qam256 for my modulation (which is what comcast uses i believe)
[07:20] <imabox> !help
[07:20] <Zinn> Use ! followed by a topic to get help on the topic (if it exists) example: !logs.  Other available commands: !status, !about, !bug [bug_number].  For a  complete list of my knowledge visit: http://www.baablogic.net/Zinn.cgi
[07:20] <imabox> !help comcast
[07:20] <imabox> he is not friendly
[07:20] <imabox> !comcast
[07:20] <Zinn> Sorry I don't know about comcast
[07:24] <tgm4883_laptop> !schedulesdirect
[07:24] <Zinn> Sorry I don't know about schedulesdirect
[07:24] <tgm4883_laptop> imabox, you need schedules direct
[07:26] <imabox> its not possible to get comcast channel listings?
[07:26] <tgm4883_laptop> ah
[07:27] <tgm4883_laptop> providing that your comcast provider transmits the EIT listings, you should be able to receive them
[07:27] <tgm4883_laptop> I unfortunatly, can't help you with that
[07:27] <imabox> i believe they do, but for some reason when i scan i timeout and it displays my signal strength at zero
[11:14] <fishsponge> hey people - does anyone know of a cheap wireless (Radio) keyboard with built in mouse?
[16:16] <jphillip> anyone have a blueray player in their mythbox?
[20:34] <MythbuntuGuest05> hello wise ones, is there a size limit when transferring a file from myth to a usb drive?
[20:37] <MythbuntuGuest05> i am trying to pull a 4.5 gig file from my var/lib/mythtv/videos folder and put it on a passport drive that has 92 gigs available and it fails saying (file too large.)
[20:37] <tgm4883_laptop> MythbuntuGuest05, what is the filesystem on the usb drive?
[20:38] <tgm4883_laptop> probably fat32, which doesn't allow files larger than 4GB
[20:38] <tgm4883_laptop> IIRC
[20:40] <jphillip> I thought fat32 was 2gb
[20:40] <jphillip> could be wrong
[20:41] <MythbuntuGuest05> yes it clips at exactly 4gig
[20:42] <tgm4883_laptop> jphillip, nope thats fat16, fat32 is 4GB.  Wikipedia backs that up
[20:42] <tgm4883_laptop> MythbuntuGuest05, then you will need to reformat that drive to something else
[20:42] <MythbuntuGuest05> once again quick and accurate with the answers, thanks guys
[20:42] <tgm4883_laptop> np
[21:28] <directhex> MythbuntuGuest05, ntfs. no size limit, and works fine on modern linux
[21:37] <superm1> directhex, how would you feel about having recordings on ntfs?
[21:38] <superm1> are there noticable arguments against it?
[21:39] <directhex> superm1, i wouldn't be too stressed about it, but ntfs fragments badly
[21:42] <Daviey> superm1: why reason _for_ having it?
[21:50] <hads> That would be weird.
[21:53] <jphillip> just xfs it up unless you need to touch it with windows
[21:56] <Daviey> XFS vs JFS is a worthwhile debate.. just avoid ext2/3 IMO
[21:58] <hads> I use JFS myself.
[22:05] <bobbob1016> How can I get videos to continue to play while I'm in the menu's?  As in browsing files and things?
[22:06] <zabbadapp> afaik you can only have live-tv continue to play while browsing the EPG ...
[22:07] <bobbob1016> oh, ok
[22:08] <bobbob1016> Also, how would I get myth to auto-reindex a folder when I open it, instead of me having to go into video manager to get it to update it's video list?
[22:10] <hads> I think there's a setting for that somewhere.
[22:11] <bobbob1016> I've been looking, and can't find it though
[22:11] <MythbuntuGuest05> what is that setting, i have not found a setting that does that either
[22:11] <jphillip> Daviey I still use ext3 for file systems, I have some belief that its more recoverable though I seem to be able to trash it well enough
[22:24] <superm1> Daviey, because it'd be neat to do wubi frontend+backend
[22:24] <superm1> but that would require that you mount the drive w/ write access to ntfs too
[22:33] <Daviey> superm1: i see!
[22:34] <superm1> Daviey, for now what will hopefully go in 8.10 will be a frontend option in ubiquity
[22:34] <superm1> it's very close to fully functional
[22:35] <superm1> *er wubi
[22:35] <superm1> already in ubiquity ;)
[22:54] <Daviey> superm1: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/performance.html .. looks compariable..
[22:55] <Daviey> lookup is slow..
[22:55] <directhex> Daviey, here's the debate: xfs works, jfs eats babies
[22:56] <tgm4883_laptop> directhex, is that a bug or feature?
[22:57] <superm1> Daviey, well it won't hurt to at least try
[22:57] <superm1> ntfs-3g would catch up and the rest of the framework would be ready then
[22:57] <Daviey> directhex: xfs corrupted recently for me..
[22:58] <Daviey> well to be fair.. it was HD failure, and the fact you can't reduce an XFS LVM caused issues
[22:58] <directhex> Daviey, whereas i've lost jfs 3 times in a year
[22:58] <directhex> on different machines with redundant disks & ecc memory
[22:59] <Daviey> hmm
[22:59] <Daviey> irrelevant to wubi.. but we've avoided MurderFS
[22:59] <directhex> no, reiser3 only murders HIS wife, not yours
[22:59] <directhex> safe for users
[22:59] <Daviey> \o/
[23:00] <directhex> irony: reiser is the fs i've had fewest data losses with
[23:00] <Daviey> I haven't forgiven resierFS for losing me data, years ago
[23:00] <Daviey> I suspect it's better than that now
[23:01] <tgm4883_laptop> now it hides your data and waits for a plea bargin?
[23:01] <Daviey> heh
[23:26] <balz> I'm trying to add a video in the video manager, but it can't find the title online.  If i were to manually enter the video number, where could I get this nubmer from?  IMDB?
[23:27] <directhex> yes
[23:29] <balz> directhex, i'm on IMDB right now, but i can't find the video number...
[23:31] <directhex> address bar
[23:31] <balz> oooh... duh....


[03:12] <mhall119> tgm4883: the whole purpose of Unity was to create a common interface for use on multiple devices
[03:13] <mhall119> which is why my mockups at least have been focused on how Unity would look and work on a 10' UI
[03:13] <tgm4883> mhall119, which means we should force something that doesn't work because of policy?
[03:13] <mhall119> tgm4883: no, it means we should figure out what doesn't work, and fix it
[03:14] <tgm4883> Which is what I thought this whole discussion was about
[03:14] <mhall119> Unity's goal is to work on multiple form factors, including 10' displays.  So if it doesn't do that, that's a bug
[03:14] <tgm4883> then it's a bug
[03:14] <mhall119> it is, and the mockups are to help us discover those bugs
[03:15] <tgm4883> not if nobody looks at the usefulness of mockups
[03:15] <mhall119> so that the design and functionality of Unity can be changed
[03:15] <tgm4883> or doesn't think about how a mockup on a 4 in screen at a distance of 30 inches translates to a 47 in screen at 10-12 feet
[03:16] <mhall119> tgm4883: I'm thinking about that, AlanBell is too, I think we're mostly all on the same page with that
[03:16] <tgm4883> I don't know if we are. Every mockup I've seen has small icons taking 5% of the width of the screen
[03:17] <mhall119> tgm4883: did you see mine?
[03:17] <tgm4883> IDK, link?
[03:17] <mhall119> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
[03:18] <mhall119> if we use the remote control buttons as keyboard input, then we don't need to worry so much about the target size for clicking, we just need to worry about being able to identify items and the current highlighted ones from a distance
[03:18] <tgm4883> mhall119, your's and mine are kinda similar. I don't like screen 3 (launcher) though
[03:18] <mhall119> what don't you like about it?
[03:18] <tgm4883> mhall119, I'm not worried about clicking, I am worried about identification
[03:18] <tgm4883> identification beyond "that one is blue, that one is red"
[03:19] <tgm4883> I don't think it translates to a 10' UI
[03:19] <mhall119> tgm4883: I have a Wii, which has like a 5x4 grid if icons, and I can identify them all fine on my less than 42in display
[03:19] <tgm4883> I don't think you can tell what those icons will be from 10 feet away
[03:19] <tgm4883> how large are the icons
[03:19] <mhall119> on the wii?
[03:19] <tgm4883> yes
[03:20] <mhall119> the grid covers probably 90% of my screen
[03:20] <tgm4883> IIRC, they were like 5 inch squares on my 32-in TV
[03:20] <mhall119> sounds about right
[03:20] <tgm4883> right, but your screen 3 doesn't cover 90% of the screen
[03:20] <tgm4883> it covers 10%
[03:20] <mhall119> no, that's kind of big, I think they're about 2 inches on the side
[03:20] <mhall119> right, but it's only 1 column
[03:21] <tgm4883> i think your column is too small
[03:21] <tgm4883> I like the rest though
[03:21] <mhall119> possibly
[03:21] <tgm4883> I think we could combine ours for something really nice
[03:21] <mhall119> ditching the colored backlight might help the identification of the icons as well
[03:21] <mhall119> where is yours?
[03:22] <tgm4883> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/tgm4883/#
[03:22] <mhall119> tgm4883: my goal in these mockups was more to imagine how the remote would be used to navigate Unity as it is today, so I didn't give much through about sizes and colors
[03:22] <tgm4883> mhall119, I'd also like to add a small icon to each of the menu entries (eg. a music note for music, video reel for movies, etc)
[03:23] <mhall119> tgm4883: but that would seem over-bearing on a desktop or tablet
[03:23] <tgm4883> mhall119, this isn't for a desktop or a tablet though
[03:23] <tgm4883> this is for a TV
[03:23] <mhall119> it's for all of them, that's the goal of Unity
[03:24] <mhall119> so the question is, can we make a single UI that, with the least amount of changes, will work on all of them?
[03:24] <mhall119> I think we can
[03:24] <tgm4883> mhall119, no
[03:24] <mhall119> I hope we can
[03:24] <tgm4883> they are fundamentally different
[03:25] <mhall119> I'm not sure Canonical has the resources to devote to another UI development
[03:25] <tgm4883> mhall119, so there is two issues with that statement
[03:25] <tgm4883> 1) You assume that making unity work on a TV would require a complete rewrite
[03:26] <mhall119> of the code, no.  But of the design and testing, yes
[03:26] <tgm4883> 2) If it did require a complete rewrite, you assume that there isn't anything already done that would work
[03:26] <mhall119> let me clarify, I didn't mean specifically programmer resources
[03:26] <tgm4883> mhall119, again, i disagree. AFAIK, There has been zero testing of the design for UbuntuTV
[03:26] <mhall119> as you point out, the extra programming would probably be managable
[03:26] <tgm4883> mostly because it doesn't exist
[03:27] <mhall119> right, but there was been significant testing for Unity itself
[03:27] <tgm4883> On the other hand, there has been loads of testing of media center design
[03:27] <mhall119> I'm not sure that a media center is the target Mark had for Unity on TVs
[03:27] <tgm4883> I'm about to say something that is probably going to be widely unpopular
[03:28] <mhall119> moving to Mint?
[03:28] <tgm4883> I sure hope it is
[03:28] <tgm4883> Thats what we discussed in the UDS session
[03:28] <tgm4883> there was zero discussion of writing documents on a TV
[03:29] <tgm4883> anyway, back to my widely unpopular statement
[03:29] <mhall119> I don't think anybody would want to
[03:29] <tgm4883> There is a reason that almost every media center out there follows the same design principles.
[03:30] <tgm4883> it works
[03:30] <tgm4883> I think we should be similar to those
[03:30] <mhall119> a fair statement
[03:31] <mhall119> but then again, if Apple followed that, we'd all still have crappy portable music players
[03:31] <mhall119> not that I don't still have a crappy portable music player, but that's beside the point
[03:32] <tgm4883> mhall119, would you say that apple made that change because it worked better?
[03:32] <mhall119> yes
[03:32] <dmj726> We don't want to make a clone of stuff that's already out there
[03:33] <tgm4883> Then we agree
[03:33] <dmj726> That's not how you make a leading technology
[03:33] <tgm4883> dmj726, I have no issue with change
[03:33] <tgm4883> I have an issue with changing things for the sake of change
[03:34] <mhall119> tgm4883: we seem to have fundamentally different desires for the end product
[03:34] <mhall119> I don't want a media center
[03:34] <mhall119> I already have one, almost every cable and satelite operator ships some kind of media center
[03:34] <tgm4883> If we are going to change something, it needs to be because A) something wasn't working right, and B) this change was to fix that
[03:34] <tgm4883> mhall119, what do you want then?
[03:34] <mhall119> I can use boxee or xbmc or myth or whatever
[03:34] <dmj726> I want a device that *is* good for recording and consuming media
[03:34] <dmj726> but it should also do new things
[03:35] <dmj726> like collaboration and social interaction
[03:36] <tgm4883> dmj726, boxee already does that
[03:36] <dmj726> Not like I want.
[03:36] <tgm4883> how do you want it?
[03:37] <dmj726> Well, if I'm right about boxee it's basically twitter apps and such on the Boxee, right?
[03:38] <dmj726> and you control the app via the remote with a built-in keyboard
[03:38] <tgm4883> dmj726, I believe it has that, but you can also recommend shows to friends and such
[03:38] <tgm4883> I honestly haven't used it in quite a while
[03:38] <dmj726> yeah, that's not really what I'm thinking of
[03:39] <dmj726> So all built-in functionality should be remote friendly.  I'm making this clear.
[03:39] <tgm4883> ok
[03:40] <dmj726> However, Ubuntu TV should allow applications to take advantage of different input devices, like tablets, smartphones, and PCs as appropriate for the app.
[03:41] <tgm4883> Are you talking about having your tablet act as a mouse/keyboard?
[03:41] <dmj726> Additionally, I want apps that can be seamlessly transparent over the network and use the TVs strengths when used combined with other devices
[03:41] <dmj726> tgm4883: That's part of it, yes.  But not the whole story
[03:42] <tgm4883> that would be an OS function it seems, but whats the rest of the story
[03:42] <dmj726> So, I'm editing an image, animation, video, whatever.  Me and my group are all working on our pieces
[03:42] <dmj726> The TV is our shared screen.
[03:42] <tgm4883> oh, your that guy
[03:43] <dmj726> So I work individually on my task, but we can easily collaborate
[03:43] <dmj726> THis would also be really nice for games
[03:43] <tgm4883> I have zero idea how you are going to do that as a function of the OS and not a function of the application
[03:44] <tgm4883> if you have any insights into that, please share
[03:44] <dmj726> Well, you need a Shell, and a couple of basic pieces in place in the OS to make this work well.
[03:44] <dmj726> If your device is just a media center, there's no infrastructure for that, short of hacking the media center out of it
[03:45] <tgm4883> dmj726, IMHO, you are still going to need the application to support multiple people working on a single project at the same time
[03:45] <tgm4883> dmj726, and you are thinking media center 1.0, not 2.0
[03:45] <dmj726> Also, some network friendly hooks into the interface system for pointing devices, basic things like that will be good for tablet control
[03:46] <tgm4883> that would all be at the OS level though, not part of a 10' UI (other than the portion that would display the image)
[03:46] <dmj726> tgm4883: I know you do need application support.  I'm developing one such application.
[03:47] <tgm4883> dmj726, ok, so for future clarification. Don't call that social. Call it collaborative
[03:47] <imnichol> The thing I see with dropping unity is that there really isn't a point for Canonical to be involved in this project then.  We might as well just be using xbmc
[03:47] <dmj726> well, social referred more to social gaming and the like
[03:48] <tgm4883> dmj726, all of which you can do with current media centers
[03:48] <dmj726> which is social engagement rather than collaboration, but point taken
[03:48] <tgm4883> imnichol, if we use Unity and that is Canonical's only connection, they shouldn't be included anyway
[03:48] <tgm4883> That is a weak reason for them to be involved
[03:48] <imnichol> tgm4883, if we drop unity, then canonical has to spend time/money investing in a new gui
[03:49] <imnichol> That will only be used for one thing
[03:49] <dmj726> Yeah, I think we should keep unity, make the window manager maximized/full screen only, tweak unity for 10 foot UI niceness, add proper input/output APIs and call it a day
[03:49] <dmj726> tgm4883: Who else will push this to OEMs if not Canonical?
[03:50] <tgm4883> imnichol, I'm not saying drop unity (ok, I am, but only because there is other stuff out there more developered). I'm saying it needs to work for a 10' UI
[03:50] <imnichol> Adding a new UI will necessitate a bunch of new code
[03:50] <tgm4883> dmj726, 1) why does this need to be pushed to OEMs 2) Why couldn't Canonical be involved for other reasons that Unity
[03:51] <tgm4883> imnichol, no it wouldn't
[03:51] <dmj726> tgm4883: You think this will become popular if it isn't?
[03:51] <tgm4883> imnichol, well, define "a bunch"
[03:51] <tgm4883> dmj726, yes
[03:52] <tgm4883> dmj726, but you're missing my point anyway. I still think Canonical would be involved without Unity
[03:52] <dmj726> So your mom will install Ubuntu TV on her PC and hook that up to her TV?
[03:52]  * tgm4883 rolls eyes
[03:52] <tgm4883> dmj726, no, but my mom isn't going to buy a Ubuntu TV either
[03:52] <imnichol> Well hold on, it's a valid question
[03:52] <imnichol> Why wouldn't she if it was in stores as a set top box?
[03:52] <dmj726> tgm4883: I'm not saying they would take their ball and go home, though they might not let that decision happen with their distro
[03:53] <dmj726> tgm4883: My mom would if it could record her shows and do other cool things.
[03:53] <imnichol> I want it on the record that I don't speak for Canonical or the Ubuntu community in any sense
[03:53] <tgm4883> imnichol, dmj726 so here's the thing. Canonical isn't taking their ball and going home. They said they were doing Ubuntu on TV's, so that is happening. Whether we (you and I and the community) actually have any say in what the UI is remains to be seen
[03:54] <dmj726> tgm4883: true
[03:54] <tgm4883> honestly I think popey, willcooke, and the other canonical employees need to take charge of this room a little more and at least give us a little bit of direction
[03:54] <dmj726> BTW, I like the idea of Unity for consistency's sake across Ubuntu
[03:54] <imnichol> tgm4883, agreed
[03:55] <tgm4883> dmj726, I can take a PC, install Unity, and hook that up to my TV. Sit on my couch with my keyboard and mouse (since there is no remote support yet) and wouldn't be able to make Unity functional for a TV
[03:56] <imnichol> tgm4883, only because there aren't any apps that do TV stuff (afaik, I've never tried)
[03:56] <dmj726> I really don't see how Unity *wouldn't* be really easy to make functional for a TV
[03:56] <dmj726> It's just the shell
[03:56] <dmj726> Now apps is another story
[03:56] <imnichol> The entire point of unity is that it gets out of your way, which is exactly what you want when you're watching tv
[03:56] <dmj726> Unity would be really nice for a TV interface
[03:56] <tgm4883> imnichol, thats a strawman argument
[03:57] <tgm4883> there isn't a media center in the world that doesn't get out of your way when watching TV
[03:57] <dmj726> The issue you're talking about is the TV app
[03:57] <dmj726> granted it's the main app, and it would be started the moment you boot your TV
[03:57] <tgm4883> You do full screen video, you have an OSD available for info and your done
[03:57] <imnichol> Well, no, since a strawman requires intent to deceve, I apprently just don't understand the why Unity doesn't work for TVs except for the remote issue, which we've all agreed is going to need to be fixed
[03:58] <tgm4883> imnichol, I think I've stated multiple times that it's a vision issue in that you have to be able to know what each item on the screen is
[03:58] <dmj726> so design a great set of core TV, video, music, etc apps, heck use existing media center software for the time being
[03:58] <imnichol> tgm4883, I guess I haven't been here for that
[03:59] <tgm4883> imnichol, guess not
[03:59] <tgm4883> dmj726, and that is my second complaint about what everyone is suggesting
[03:59] <imnichol> So is it icon size then?  Icon clarity?
[03:59] <tgm4883> the "lets use unity and have it launch rhythmbox for music"
[03:59] <imnichol> Oh ok, continue
[03:59] <tgm4883> imnichol, yes, the wasted space issue
[03:59] <dmj726> said applications should be designed for TV
[04:00] <dmj726> Maemo didn't throw rhythmbox on the phone and call it a day
[04:00] <dmj726> they designed a front end that was very usable on a tiny screen with fat fingers
[04:00] <tgm4883> dmj726, I disagree a bit (I agree, but with clarification). the music app should be explicitly written to work with the 10' UI
[04:00] <dmj726> tgm4883: I agree
[04:01] <dmj726> the use existing meant maybe do use a media center as your media app
[04:01] <imnichol> dmj726, tgm4883 The issue with interface was discussed on the mailling list
[04:01] <tgm4883> because A) You don't want a strange transition to a different UI just for music, and B) you will still need a 10' UI for the music
[04:01] <imnichol> We can use repos in order to resolve that problem
[04:01] <dmj726> in the long run, writing apps to be consistent and easy to use with the overall scheme should be done
[04:02] <tgm4883> dmj726, yes
[04:02] <dmj726> and default apps should fit with the TV setting perfectly
[04:02] <tgm4883> dmj726, so let me get a little clarification from you then. Are you saying use Unity, then if you want to watch media launch a media center app?
[04:03] <dmj726> that said, maybe using existing backends and just writing a nice webkit UI (or something) for the front end is a good idea
[04:03] <dmj726> yes, Unity is just the shell
[04:03] <tgm4883> hmm
[04:03] <tgm4883> not sure I really like that either, let me ask this
[04:04] <dmj726> it lets you find your apps, get to them easily, and it launches any app to either a full screen or maximized view
[04:04] <tgm4883> The point of Unity is to launch your applications?
[04:04] <dmj726> Also, important apps would be right in the launcher
[04:04] <dmj726> tgm4883: also find media
[04:04] <dmj726> and provide whatever notifications
[04:04] <dmj726> like new messages or system time
[04:04] <tgm4883> ok, but all of those things can be done in current media centers
[04:05] <dmj726> So in a current media center, how do I launch the video editing app that I installed through the software center?
[04:06] <dmj726> and how would I switch back and forth between the video editor and the TV?
[04:06] <tgm4883> In a current media center, you would launch it from the menu item that said "video editing app" (or whatever)
[04:06] <mhall119> hmmm, I wonder if a scrollwheel on a remote would be useable
[04:07] <dmj726> tgm4883: So current media centers have a window manager?
[04:07] <tgm4883> mhall119, for what?
[04:07] <mhall119> tgm4883: for scrolling
[04:07] <dmj726> Clarification I do not have a media center
[04:07] <tgm4883> dmj726, what you are asking, can already be done with XBMC
[04:07] <mhall119> well, for *faster* scrolling than hitting the arrow buttons repeatedly
[04:07] <dmj726> The hold the mouse like a remote says scroll wheel could work
[04:08] <dmj726> tgm4883: okay
[04:08] <imnichol> tgm4883, but it would require some coding, just like if we go with Unity
[04:08] <mhall119> that method has never felt natural to me
[04:08] <tgm4883> mhall119, you can hold down on a remote button
[04:08] <mhall119> I always way over or under shoot
[04:08] <tgm4883> imnichol, what would require coding? It already does it
[04:08] <mhall119> it might make for an overall better remote UX
[04:08] <tgm4883> 'already' implies that the coding part is done
[04:09] <dmj726> Can I open say Firefox inside XBMC?
[04:09] <mhall119> anyway, added a Shotwell mockup to http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
[04:09] <tgm4883> dmj726, yes
[04:09] <tgm4883> dmj726, it will launch applications
[04:09] <tgm4883> AFAIK anything you say it will launch, providing you can launch it on the underlying OS
[04:10] <imnichol> tgm4883, If we go with one of the existing media centers, it will require that we modify the code, and if we use unity, we'll have to modify code as well...(continued)
[04:10] <dmj726> tgm4883: Can you switch between open ones?
[04:10]  * mhall119 is contemplating a tiling window manager
[04:10] <tgm4883> dmj726, I would have to check. I'm assuming you can via alt-tab, which you would need with any frontend
[04:10] <imnichol> tgm4883, the only difference between using an existing media center or unity is which code we have to modify
[04:11] <dmj726> mhall119: I wouldn't mind a tiling manager being included (might be good for PiP or PoP) but full screen should be the most obvious and default case
[04:11] <tgm4883> imnichol, not true, there is way more you have to modify for Unity
[04:11] <mhall119> dmj726: yeah, I'm thinking for multi-windowed apps
[04:12] <dmj726> tgm4883: So I don't disapprove of XBMC if what you say is true and the firefox window is usable and accessible within XBMC on that ground
[04:12] <imnichol> tgm4883, I'm not sure that would be true...
[04:12] <dmj726> However, I still thing Unity might be a good idea for other reasons
[04:13] <tgm4883> Unity coding: Change unity to accept remote control input, change sizing/layout for inclusion on a TV, create (or modify existing) each type of media app (music, video, picture, etc) so it will work in a 10' and look decent during transitions
[04:13] <tgm4883> XBMC coding: Theme it to look like unity
[04:13] <dmj726> mhall119: Might be good if GIMP could use that, though I bet GIMP will be single window friendly by then (note I'm not saying GIMP is a key app on TV)
[04:13] <tgm4883> Seems like there is less coding on the XBMC side ;)
[04:14] <imnichol> tgm4883, can XBMC keep a movie/tv playing while you browse the internet?  Also using xbmc means that the codebase gets a lot bigger.
[04:14] <dmj726> mhall119: nice mockup
[04:14] <tgm4883> imnichol, yes I believe it can
[04:14] <dmj726> reminds me of the dmedia browser prototype
[04:15] <imnichol> tgm4883, how does allowing remote control input require a huge code change?
[04:15] <tgm4883> imnichol, did you not read the rest of that line?
[04:15] <tgm4883> imnichol, I'm starting to wonder about your motives here, do you really love Unity this much?
[04:16] <imnichol> Hm
[04:17] <imnichol> I'm a secret microsoft plant here to destroy ubuntu by pushing unity ;)
[04:17] <tgm4883> sweet, are you a Ficus?
[04:17] <imnichol> Lemme guess, Steve Jobs paid you to do the same thing on belalf of apple?
[04:17] <imnichol> lol
[04:18] <dmj726> I'm a secret Novacut plant here to ensure Ubuntu TV is awesome.
[04:18] <imnichol> My god, how deep does the conspiracy go?
[04:18] <dmj726> hehe
[04:21] <imnichol> tgm4883, What's that a reference to?  I feel like it's a book I've read.
[04:21] <tgm4883> imnichol, IDK, a Ficus is an office plant. I thought it was funny :)
[04:22] <tgm4883> probably exists in some book though
[04:22] <imnichol> Oh ok.  I could have sworn that there was some story about people being a ficus.  I think it was Douglas Adams.
[04:22] <tgm4883> could be
[04:57] <imnichol> tgm4883, tell you what, put up a unity screenshot with arrows that point out what sizing/layout issues you think there are in unity that won't work for a tv, and you'll convince me that we should use xbmc/whatever
[05:23] <dmj726> mhall119: you around?
[05:23] <dmj726> http://imagebin.org/186588
[07:59] <popey> 03:54:24 < tgm4883> honestly I think popey, willcooke, and the other canonical employees need to take charge of this room a little more and at least give us a little bit of direction
[07:59] <popey> noted
[09:03]  * AlanBell agrees
[09:03] <AlanBell> would be good to get clarity over whether this is an Ubuntu TV or Unity TV project
[09:04] <AlanBell> what I find interesting about mhall119's mockups is that the thinks like shotwell and the unity launcher look about right on the 1/4 scale screen when they are regular sized
[09:05] <AlanBell> so desktop things scaled up by a factor of 4 seem to fit the full HD 10 foot UI
[09:06] <AlanBell> factor of 4 in terms of pixels
[09:12] <dmj726> AlanBell: I would tend to agree
[09:12] <dmj726> One might actually argue what the exact scale factor is
[09:12] <dmj726> Might turn out say 3x or 2x or 6x is really the right size.
[09:13] <dmj726> but I think it does need scaling up
[09:13] <dmj726> AlanBell: Unity will need this anyway for tablets and smartphones
[09:17] <dmj726> AlanBell: hmm...they're not *too* far off, but I do feel the launcher icons are a bit too big
[09:17] <dmj726> My guess is 2-3x is probably right
[10:40] <daker> who want to see my mockup ?
[10:46] <AlanBell> me!, where are they daker?
[10:46] <daker> i have only one at the moment ツ
[10:47] <AlanBell> dmj726: interestingly 1920x1080 divides by 3 to 640x360
[10:48] <daker> AlanBell, http://ubuntuone.com/0tZlYZ2bf5WqFyuS6nAcEC
[10:49] <dmj726> AlanBell: intestestong
[10:49] <AlanBell> nice looking bottom bar thing
[10:50] <dmj726> I'd say we should allow enough space for at least 8 icons vertically in the launcher
[10:50] <AlanBell> dmj726: I think I will add a second slide to the base design frame with the screen at 640x360
[10:51] <dmj726> gut feeling says that's a good number
[10:51] <dmj726> 5 seems to limited
[10:57] <daker> AlanBell, what do you think ?
[11:00] <AlanBell> daker: the playback controls are nice
[11:01] <daker> ツ
[12:36] <mhall119> dmj726: were you wanting me to use that image in a mockup?
[12:44] <daker> mhall119, have you seen my 1st mockup ?
[12:54] <mhall119> daker: no, the U1 link you posted earlier wasn't working
[13:06] <daker> mhall119, yes look here http://people.ubuntu.com/~daker/ubuntu-tv/
[13:07] <mhall119> daker: nice, except I think the text is too small for people to read from a distance
[13:08] <daker> mhall119, click on the image to see it
[13:10] <mhall119> daker: I meant that, at 10 feet (3-4 meters) away, that'll be hard to read
[13:11] <mhall119> even on a large screen tv
[13:11] <daker> i see
[13:14] <AlanBell> that isn't 16:9 ratio
[13:18] <daker> AlanBell, i think you are right
[14:49] <sladen> http://www.youtube.com/leanback  is quite an interesting, simple TV interface
[14:49] <sladen> handy to run full-screen on a monitor/TV
[14:51] <sladen> navigation appears to be all left/right/up/down/enter
[15:00] <dmj726> mhall119: just noticing some similarities between your shotwell bit and our dmedia browser prototype
[15:01] <dmj726> if you'd like to use the screenshot, that would be kinda cool though
[15:04] <tgm4883> dmj726, (off to work), but might be better to have a second info screen with that smaller text a bit larger. eg. hit info once, it pulls up the controls and volume, hit it again pulls up a larger overlay (maybe the bottom half of the screen) for you to tweet, see video info, etc
[15:47] <mhall119> sladen: nice one
[15:48] <mhall119> I think once we have a platform like Ubuntu on the TV, there will be more TV-layout webapps like that
[15:48] <mhall119> just like we have phone-layout webapps now
[15:56] <mhall119> sladen: I added a screenshot of leanback to my mockups: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
[16:03] <mhall119> I'm beginning to question the need for number buttons on the TV remote.  Besides picking a channel by number for broadcast television, is there any use for them?
[16:03] <mhall119> none of my mockups have used them so far
[16:14] <dmj726> mhall119: perhaps picking items from a list?
[16:15] <dmj726> I'd say we should keep them if we want to interact with TV at all, just so we don't make people with lots of channels surf back and forth all the time
[16:20] <mhall119> dmj726: ok, maybe they can be smaller and less in the way though, if we're not going to use them much
[16:29] <dmj726> mhall119: that makes sense, though I'm not sure the remote design is really up to Canonical other than saying what buttons are absolutely necessary
[16:29] <dmj726> I would think OEMs would design that, perhaps with a little guidance from Canonical.
[16:52] <popey> sladen: bbc have a similar thing... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/bigscreen/
[16:52] <popey> you can click into the browser content and then navigate with arrow keys
[21:36] <mhall119> I get the feeling webapps like these may be a prime use of UbuntuTV
[21:37] <mhall119> we should see if anyone is working on a browser optimized for TV use
[21:38] <MrChrisDruif> mhall119; webapps? Did I miss something?
[21:38] <mhall119> MrChrisDruif: like the BBC's iplayer, or youtube's 'leanback'
[21:39] <mhall119> MrChrisDruif: in much the same way people make mobile phone apps using HTML5, they could make TV apps too
[23:41] <MrChrisDruif> How did I get this link? http://imagebin.org/185405