[09:14] <robitaille> !meeting set TechBoard 1 Nov 20:00
[09:15] <robitaille> argh...a bug with Ubugtu.  It doesn't sort months properly (Nov before Oct)
[02:00] <JaneW> **Reminder** Edubuntu Update Meeting here, now.
[02:01] <mhz> :D
[02:01] <ealden> watching :)
[02:02] <flint> goog morning jane...
[02:02] <JaneW> hi flint
[02:02] <JaneW> is ogra in the house?
[02:03] <flint> where the heck is ollie?  morning ealden...
[02:03] <pips1> hi all
[02:03] <ealden> hello flint
[02:03] <ogra> whoops
[02:03] <JaneW> ok well first things first...
[02:03] <JaneW> Edubuntu 5.10 is out!!!!
[02:04] <ogra> yeah
[02:04] <Lathiat> congrats
[02:04] <segfault> woohoo!
[02:04] <JaneW> Thanks to EVERYBODY who contributed
[02:04] <ogra> and we already have some fairly good press :)
[02:04] <segfault> :-)
[02:04] <flint> absolutely a good thing...
[02:04] <JaneW> we really appreciate it
[02:04] <JaneW> and thanks especially to Mr Edubuntu himself ogra!
[02:04] <pips1> whoot whoot
[02:04] <ogra> heh, thanks :)
[02:04] <segfault> we'll start using Edubuntu here in Brazil, in the so called "Telecentros"!
[02:04] <flint> indeed!
[02:04] <JaneW> segfault: great!
[02:05] <JaneW> ogra: so can you make a call on the CD?
[02:05] <JaneW> are you happy that we press it as is?
[02:05] <ajmitch> hi
[02:05] <JaneW> hi ajmitch
[02:05] <flint> I am putting a copy up at the Arlington Housing Coalation.
[02:06] <ogra> i'm not really 100% convinced we should do it, but the feedback seems to say different... so lets go for it
[02:06] <JaneW> ogra: do you want to wait a few more days?
[02:06] <ajmitch> how much of that feedback is from people who would use the cd?
[02:06] <JaneW> does anyone else want to comment?
[02:06] <ajmitch> and not just people wanting a free cd?
[02:07] <ogra> JaneW, how many requests like the one from madagascar i forwarded do you have until now ? does it cover some thousand ?
[02:07] <JaneW> ogra: that's the only really direct one
[02:07] <ogra> hmm
[02:07] <JaneW> asking for 100
[02:07] <ogra> thats not really moch
[02:07] <ogra> *much
[02:08] <flint> Regarding the CD.  Keep in mind the market for edubuntu is the educational institiution.  While they have burners and bandwidth, they often do not have the resolve to use them.  We need a CD run.  How much can this cost?
[02:08] <ogra> flint, we have approval for some thousand CDs ...
[02:08] <ogra> flint, but ...
[02:09] <flint> But?
[02:09] <ogra> we need to keep track exactly who got them, in which amount, and if it fails, we'll never get money for it again
[02:09] <JaneW> and no one has bothered to submit anything to http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuShippingPlans
[02:09] <mhz> JaneW: we want and are planning to have an Edubuntu Tour in some educational instoitutions (about 15, to start). Also, we are shceduling meetings with teachers to invite them to become testers before implemnting.
[02:10] <JaneW> which is a pre-req for our printing approval, sabdfl wants to review the plans.
[02:10] <ogra> flint, so if we have the option for only one CD in edubuntu's lifetime at all, i'd rather go with next release
[02:10] <JaneW> mhz: sounds great
[02:10] <mhz> so wee need cd's:)
[02:10] <ogra> the german community saked me for some edubuntu talks on one of the 15 fairs they attend...
[02:10] <JaneW> mhz: agreed
[02:11] <mhz> thx
[02:11] <flint> ok kidos, then which educational segment are you going to target?  primairy, secondary or college?
[02:11] <mhz> and or t-shirts :D
[02:11] <ogra> so the requirement seems to be there... but its hard to keep track who got how many Cds if you give them out on fairs
[02:11] <JaneW> the thing is if we want to drum up support and enthusiasm with this release and raise awareness before the next it would halp to have something to SHOW
[02:11] <mhz> ogra: agreed
[02:11] <ogra> flint, you were at the summit, you know what we target
[02:12] <JaneW> flint: it seems primary with this release, as the reviews have mentioned its very junior school friendly
[02:12] <ogra> i think currently we dont really target colleg
[02:12] <ogra> e
[02:12] <mhz> ogra: what we are planning is "invite to demos", "enter a database", we visit you and demo it in front of Principals and Teachers. There, we provide cd's
[02:12] <JaneW> secondary age students will possibly find it too juvenile...?
[02:12] <JaneW> mhz: your approach is good, more hands on and more likley to result in something
[02:13] <ogra> mhz, but can this cover "some thousand CDs" ?
[02:13] <JaneW> ogra: rem it;s no more than 500 per country
[02:13] <flint> i think that the technology would facinate at any level.
[02:13] <ogra> we need to get them all out to somebody... else it wont happen again
[02:14] <flint> I think a free CD should accompany every proposal delivered to a school adminsitration....
[02:14] <ogra> so my concern is that this release is very young, even if people dont seem to notice...
[02:14] <JaneW> guys if we want this to happen we need to flesh out our distribution plans - see  http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCDPrintingPlans and http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuShippingPlans
[02:14] <flint> ...note first use of the word proposal.
[02:14] <JaneW> if we get that sorted we can press the CDs and I think we can easilly move them
[02:14] <ogra> the next one will have more gui tools more management software and be a lot more polished
[02:14] <flint> Dear Jane, a lot of us have to work for a living...
[02:15] <mhz> ogra: it all depends on resources. Unfortunatelly, we can't afford to travel all around Chile (we'd love to demo all over, but we just can't yet). Actually, 6th Encuentro Linux (linux gathering) starts tomorrow and we couldn't afford the travel and we did not have CD's to give put to people from education.
[02:15] <mhz> so, 500 cd tops sounds good
[02:15] <ogra> mhz, i understand... but still, if we fail we wont have the chance again
[02:16] <ogra> so i try to be very careful with this opportunity
[02:16] <mhz> ogra: yes. I can assure the hard work from us in Chile. I cannot assure you that after 500 meetings, 500 schools will be using edubuntu :(
[02:17] <ogra> mhz, thats not the point....
[02:17] <ogra> can you assure that 500 schools want a CD ?
[02:17] <mhz> nop.
[02:17] <mhz> 500 teachers and more? Yes
[02:17] <JaneW> ok, lets tackle this as follows, if you want CDs, get the proposal in...
[02:17] <flint> ollie, that is why you need proposals.  This situation is different from ubuntu.  it is about schools adminstrators not hackers...
[02:17] <ogra> and thats the hard part... we need to make sure that there are some thousand people in the world wanting a CD
[02:18] <JaneW> we can also speak to sabdfl and get his opinion on whether he thinks the release is mature enough to press to CD (or wait till 6.04)
[02:18] <ogra> if we fail with this, we'll loose the opportunity to do it with the more polished version
[02:18] <flint> jane, you do not get proposals you write proposals.  you got them going in the wrong way.  You generate proposals for use of edubuntu in schools.
[02:18] <segfault> I think 100 cds limit is enough
[02:19] <ogra> segfault, 500 per country...
[02:19] <ogra> thats our limit that was set ....
[02:19] <segfault> nice, but 100 per person
[02:19] <ogra> heh
[02:19] <ogra> so 5 ppl per country :)
[02:19] <mhz> JaneW: current gov. is supporting Edulinux (rpm's) because nobody else has presented another alternative. That we'll do.
[02:20] <segfault> hehe
[02:20] <JaneW> flint: Mark just wants to see a plan for WHAT THE CDS ARE INTENDED TO BE USED FOR
[02:21] <flint> janew, imagine a web site where you write in which school you are from, give some information about the school, and a proposal is printed and is used to wrap a CD which is mailed to the institution.
[02:21] <jsgotangco> haloo
[02:21] <JaneW> drafting a proposal to approach a school with would be great, but I need ppl to justify why I should send them CDs to distribute
[02:21] <mhz> JaneW: ok. he'll have that from us no later than tuesday.
[02:21] <JaneW> flint: no that's not what we are doing
[02:22] <JaneW> flint: read the 2 wiki pages, we will distribute to one of our edubuntu LoCo memebers who has prepared a distribution plan for his country
[02:23] <JaneW> the LoCo person will be the edubuntu hub in their country and will handle the distribution as they see fit, though school, demos, events etc
[02:23] <JaneW> mhz: great thanks
[02:23] <mhz> JaneW: Does that mean I gotta become a LoCo memeber?
[02:23] <jsgotangco> ouch i have no time for that :)
[02:23] <jsgotangco> mhz: no not necessarily
[02:23] <flint> janew, you are creating web documents faster than I can read in my spare time...
[02:23] <JaneW> ok ogra, the powers that be and I will discuss the merits of printing now with what we have and you guys must motivate why you need/want CDs and what you'll do with them.
[02:24] <ogra> flint, read them at work then :)
[02:24] <JaneW> we'll take it from there
[02:24] <JaneW> mhz: I am using the term LoCo loosely here ... it;s basically the ppl who are involved in edubuntu such was al those who are here...
[02:25] <flint> the good thing about all this publishing is I can ask Jane what url is a good t-shirt logo?
[02:25] <JaneW> jsgotangco: you get your proposal in too! :P
[02:25] <ogra> in fact for germany it is the loco team that talked to me
[02:25] <JaneW> flint: you making edubuntu shirts?
[02:25] <jsgotangco> JaneW: errr...i just need around 100 i don't need that much....
[02:25] <ogra> i'll poke them to fill out the wikipage
[02:25] <jsgotangco> JaneW: even 10 will do for me...i got a burner :P
[02:25] <flint> JaneW, you got a logo?
[02:26] <ogra> flint, its on the wiki
[02:26] <JaneW> flint: did you see my edubuntu cake? http://www.flickr.com/photos/13916877@N00/52389874/
[02:26] <JaneW> ok let's move on...
[02:26] <mhz> JaneW: what IF we reduced CD's printing/shipping to only 200, top. BUT we invest the rest of $ on T-shirts ?
[02:26] <flint> ollie, saying it is on the wiki is like saying it is on the computer... n:^)
[02:27] <JaneW> mhz: I am not sure that's an option, but we can ask...
[02:27] <JaneW> ok UBZ
[02:27] <flint> I have now read your plans. jane, will this distribution method penetrate into school systems?
[02:27] <mhz> flint: search -> title should do :) plus it right on index page :D
[02:27] <jsgotangco> mhz: not a good idea, you *can't* reproduce t-shirts for people
[02:27] <JaneW> UBZ is fast approaching, we need to make sure we have all required BOF topics
[02:28] <jsgotangco> well its not like we'll be there :P
[02:28] <ogra> i have listed my three main goals ... (centralized user management, thin client local devices, thin client sound)
[02:28] <mhz> jsgotangco: good point. But, for instance, yesterday I was at a university in which I was invited to go back next weeks to demo edubuntu. I'd love to give at least 3 t-shirts to the more motivated teachers
[02:28] <JaneW> we also need those that will be present to volunteer to lead BOF and to do pre work and get some of the braindump work of the spec completed
[02:29] <flint> essentially the distribution method is a further constrained version of the ubuntu distribution method
[02:29] <flint> I got a tee shirt company around the corner, give me the url for a logo.
[02:29] <JaneW> ogra: will it be feasible to target an entire school architecture in 6.04?
[02:29] <ogra> JaneW, sure...
[02:29] <flint> JaneW, that is a UBZ question and will require beer in the answer.
[02:30] <ogra> you can do that now if you want, but it involved knowledge
[02:30] <jsgotangco> we have schooltool....
[02:30] <mhz> JaneW: yesterday, ogra pointed me to a very interesting BOF regarding wiki and doc stuff. However, my wife did not allow me to invest on such an expensive trip :( , sorry.
[02:30] <ogra> its just shuffliny the pieces right and integrate them
[02:30] <JaneW> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuLogo
[02:30] <flint> don't start about schooltool i was on the kb with Tom yesterday.
[02:30] <jsgotangco> AHHH
[02:31] <flint> JaneW, Thanks!!!  This way I get the logo correct (for once!)
[02:31] <JaneW> Tom was less than nice about some of his comments about edubuntu... 'aesthetic disaster'!
[02:31] <flint> gotta get an audio feed from the bof onto the net.  any ideas ollie?
[02:31] <ogra> JaneW, the main point for school management is centralized usermanagement... if we got that in and working, we're 80% done...
[02:32] <JaneW> ogra: great
[02:32] <JaneW> ogra: is there any chance squeak will be sorted out for 6.04?
[02:32] <ogra> not really... i can add new images, but thats all, we cant ship it
[02:32] <flint> people who live in grass housees should not get stoned jane, that is all i will say about that.
[02:33] <ogra> the license doesnt allow us to put it anywhere else than multiverse, so by default you have to do some manual work to even install it
[02:33] <jsgotangco> its much easier to actually run squeak in windows
[02:33] <JaneW> has everyone here seen our new site and wiki designs btw?
[02:33] <ogra> jsgotangco, yes...
[02:34] <JaneW> ogra: are they not going to change their licensing stance?
[02:34] <ogra> JaneW, squeak is nearly 10 years old, they didnt change it until now even many people requested the change... i doubt it
[02:34] <jsgotangco> its not like its that easy...
[02:34] <flint> JaneW, you mean http://www.edubuntu.org/
[02:34] <JaneW> yes
[02:35] <ogra> flint, and wiki.edubuntu.org
[02:35] <mhz> Edubuntu website look and feel is very good. Esp. considering is running Moin underneath
[02:35] <flint> squeak rocks...what is the license problem?
[02:35] <ogra> flint, it forbids direct shipment
[02:35] <ogra> and it makes the fonts non-free
[02:35] <jsgotangco> and i believe some of the fonts too
[02:35] <flint> that is wierd...
[02:35] <ogra> yes
[02:35] <ogra> but unlikely to change
[02:36] <JaneW> just to digress a little to the CD topic, I forgot to mention that mhz arranged the folloing designs for the CD packaging, please have a look and place comments at the bottom of the page.
[02:36] <flint> ogra, telepathic shippment is still ok then?
[02:36] <jsgotangco> its well established and we're a tiny speck at the moment..
[02:36] <JaneW> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdAndSlip
[02:36] <ogra> This License allows you to copy, install and use the Apple Software on an unlimited number of computers under your direct control.
[02:36] <mhz> CD's/ yes, please comment on that so I can do changes and close that chapter :)
[02:36] <ogra> ^^^^ thats the main prob
[02:37] <ogra> we dont have direct control to any of our customers PCs...
[02:38] <flint> ollie, these are not PCs they are servers...
[02:38] <ogra> there is an EXHIBIT A that allows distribution without shipping .... that why we can have it in multiverse but not on the CD
[02:38] <JaneW> CD PACKAGING:  mhz contributed these designs for the CD packaging http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdAndSlip, please have a look and place comments at the bottom of the page.
[02:38] <ajmitch> ogra: anything packaging-related you want help with for dapper?
[02:38] <flint> it is a pretty design, I gotta admit. cute kids and all.
[02:39] <ogra> ajmitch, sure, everything packaging related :)
[02:39] <JaneW> thanks
[02:39] <ajmitch> heh
[02:39] <ogra> ;)
[02:39] <flint> ollie, is there a live cd with edubuntu?
[02:39] <ogra> nope
[02:39] <JaneW> ogra: are you already starting on dapper, or do you need input at UBZ?
[02:39] <jsgotangco> ajmitch: stop lurking :)
[02:40] <flint> ok why two cd overlays at the bottom of the page...
[02:40] <JaneW> flint: there's no LiveCD with this release (nor PPC installer)
[02:40] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: I wasn't lurking, I said I was here at the start ;)
[02:40] <JaneW> flint: I think we'll go with the plainer one
[02:40] <ogra> JaneW, i have enough stuff to polish to start right through (in fact i'm just merging the new login manager into ltsp) but i need input from the ltsp guys at UBZ
[02:40] <JaneW> ajmitch: was sleeping!
[02:40] <ajmitch> JaneW: I was?
[02:40] <ajmitch> I ought to be sleeping
[02:40] <flint> no, I was sleeping!!!
[02:40] <ajmitch> it's nearly 2AM here :)
[02:40] <JaneW> ajmitch: jokes
[02:40] <JaneW> wow
[02:40] <JaneW> ogra: ok
[02:40] <jsgotangco> mhz: add a red stripe or whatever at the bottom of the cd slip at the back, it should add some stuff about Edubuntu, copyright, Canonical, etc.
[02:40] <ajmitch> and I have a MOTU meeting in ~7 hours to attend...
[02:41] <flint> JaneW,  on http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdAndSlip, bottom of page are two CD screens.  are both used?
[02:41] <JaneW> mhz: see the website footer for details
[02:41] <JaneW> flint: I discussed with mhz earlier and I told him I prefer the plainer one, esp as we need to add some text
[02:41] <mhz> jsgotangco: text/ sure. I just need to make sure the 'art' part is oke before editing texts :)
[02:42] <JaneW> mhz: must I send you that text again?^^
[02:42] <flint> for a second I thought that one screen was for side 1 and the other for side 2, :^)
[02:42] <jsgotangco> text should be easy, just rip form the edubuntu website theres loads
[02:42] <JaneW> flint: these are just conceptual
[02:42] <mhz> JaneW: nop, thx
[02:42] <JaneW> mhz: cool
[02:43] <JaneW> does everyone like the cover?
[02:43] <ogra> yup
[02:43] <JaneW> :)
[02:43] <flint> aw, the security guy in me wants to screen both sides of the CD.  extra secure that way...
[02:43] <flint> we could call this sedubuntu
[02:43] <mhz> are YOU ALL sure you wouldn't prefer a white cd label with edubuntu logo (as it is on right) and red text?
[02:44] <jsgotangco> it'll look like a blank cd
[02:44] <ogra> mhz, i like it as it is shown...
[02:44] <flint> mhz, the red clearly enrages I am for it.
[02:44] <mhz> please remember I chose white as symbol of end/begin of something new
[02:44] <mhz> flint: ok
[02:44] <jsgotangco> asian countries associate white with death
[02:44] <jsgotangco> :)
[02:44] <mhz> yes
[02:45] <mhz> jsgotangco: death is good, is begining
[02:45] <jsgotangco> ickkk
[02:45] <flint> mhz, I still want both sides of the cd screened :^)
[02:45] <mhz> jsgotangco: plus, the death of old system v/s born of edubuntu :D
[02:45] <jsgotangco> ackkk spare me the poetic symbolism please... :P
[02:45] <JaneW> mhz: white slip cover is nice, but with a red CD inside
[02:46] <mhz> flint: i can do it once you print 10.000 t-shirts and send 1.000 to me :)
[02:46] <mhz> JaneW: okidoki
[02:46] <flint> I gotta go scan a data center, an activity I place up there with having rough sex with bad animals.  so I got to go.
[02:46] <mhz> jsgotangco: but you love documenting, dont you?
[02:46] <mhz> :)
[02:46] <JaneW> flint: enjoy (as you clearly do...)
[02:46] <flint> mhz, I will try to get some ts out the door...
[02:46] <ogra> flint, have fun :)
[02:47] <flint> thanks jane.  bye!!!
[02:47] <ogra> heh
[02:47] <mhz> flint: love what you do
[02:47] <flint> thanks ollie see you all at UBZ, quiet down jane.
[02:47] <JaneW> next meeting?
[02:47] <mhz> ?
[02:47] <ogra> next week ?
[02:47] <JaneW> I won't be around this time next week (in plane)
[02:48] <ogra> yes, me too, as i just see
[02:48] <JaneW> so it has to be monday, or without me, or deferred
[02:48] <jsgotangco> just defer it
[02:48] <\sh> or at ubz
[02:48] <JaneW> votes?
[02:48] <mhz> ohhh
[02:48] <JaneW> we'll be talking lots at UBZ
[02:48] <ogra> deferred ?
[02:48] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:48] <mhz> come to chile and we have it here
[02:48] <jsgotangco> or spark a discussion on the list
[02:48] <JaneW> but do we need anymore on-line meetings before 16 Nov?
[02:48] <ogra> yes
[02:49] <jsgotangco> not so much i guess
[02:49] <jsgotangco> lots of BOF'ing will happen
[02:49] <jsgotangco> no time for meetings at all for sure
[02:49] <ogra> i think we wont have clear targets before UBZ (beyond my polish work on ltsp)
[02:49] <mhz> yes. When will we know if cd's get printed or not?
[02:49] <JaneW> ok, so nothin official until 16 Nov, but we'll talk as necessary and may call meetings if we want/need to?
[02:49] <jsgotangco> sure
[02:49] <ogra> yup
[02:49] <jsgotangco> other matters, on the list
[02:49] <mhz> ok
[02:49] <jsgotangco> put it on fire!!!
[02:49] <JaneW> mhz: I'll try have a better idea by the end of the week, if not def during UBZ
[02:49] <JaneW> heh
[02:50] <JaneW> is there anything else to discuss now?
[02:50] <jsgotangco> dunno
[02:50] <jsgotangco> what i had for dinner?
[02:50] <ogra> not here
[02:50] <mhz> JaneW: what about local support?
[02:50] <JaneW> jsgotangco: fascinating! :)
[02:51] <JaneW> mhz: yes...
[02:51] <jsgotangco> JaneW: pig intestines..in a murky soup base....
[02:51] <mhz> jsgotangco: piuk!
[02:51] <ealden> jsgotangco: hotdog?
[02:52] <mhz> lol
[02:52] <jsgotangco> ealden: isaw pre...hehhhe
[02:52] <ealden> jsgotangco: oh! haha
[02:52] <JaneW> jsgotangco: are you on Fear Factor!?
[02:52] <jsgotangco> JaneW: that's a local street food
[02:53] <ealden> jsgotangco: tasted it before.. its nice with vinegar hi hi
[02:53] <jsgotangco> JaneW: we even eat duck eggs over here with the embryo
[02:53] <JaneW> jsgotangco: I seen that on Fear Factor too!
[02:53] <jsgotangco> JaneW: what they eat on fear factor is ordinary food for us....
[02:53] <pips1> JaneW: I would like to talk about the Edubuntu Website ... Web team... ?!
[02:54] <jsgotangco> mmm
[02:54] <jsgotangco> too bad hno73 and highvoltage are not here...
[02:54] <mhz> Edubuntu WikiTeam
[02:54] <JaneW> what are we doing about local support though? There's nothing formal and it;s all in formal and voluntary at this point, we only have support throug forum and IRC for now, if we polish 6.04 we can hope to get some more formal agreements in place
[02:54] <JaneW> oh yes the web team
[02:54] <jsgotangco> mhz: Edubuntu needs its own wiki team?
[02:54] <JaneW> highvoltage couldn;t make it...
[02:54] <JaneW> pips1: can you contact him?
[02:55] <jsgotangco> JaneW: mmm local support interesting...are we taking SLAs?
[02:55] <mhz> jsgotangco: not really, but hno73 and highvoltage are the EdubuntuWikiTeam
[02:55] <jsgotangco> mhz: actually henrik is Mr. Ubuntu Wiki himself
[02:55] <JaneW> jsgotangco: we will ultimately hope to get a similar arrangement that ubuntu has ITO support infrastructure
[02:55] <mhz> however, on personal basis, I would prefer to help on Edubuntu wiki pages
[02:56] <pips1> JaneW: sure... by mail?
[02:56] <mhz> and then move to ubuntu ones
[02:56] <jsgotangco> JaneW: oh ok....i'll still slave an 8 - 5 job then
[02:56] <JaneW> I think we'll have one web/wiki team, there's very little HTML, most of what we have is wiki
[02:56] <JaneW> pips1: yes<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[02:57] <mhz> JaneW: so it is ok if we start a #edubuntu-es? or at least a edubuntu-es ML?
[02:57] <pips1> well, I spent some time brainstorming about the website today...
[02:57] <JaneW> pips1<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[02:57] <jsgotangco> mhz: eh?
[02:57] <jsgotangco> mhz: if you have a ton of people, sure
[02:57] <pips1> I am currently putting stuff up for discussion in the wiki...
[02:57] <jsgotangco> but if its just a few....
[02:57] <JaneW> mhz: do you think there's demand?
[02:58] <jsgotangco> doubt it
[02:58] <JaneW> mhz: ogra please voice an opinion too, I am happy for 'loco' teams to start up, but bare in mind that we can offer support in those languages so you will need to self manage them...
[02:58] <mhz> JaneW: not yet, but my concern is service. and so, we start demoing edubuntu next weeks, where should people who speak no english direct ot
[02:58] <mhz> ot = to
[02:58] <JaneW> right
[02:59] <mhz> so far, no need at all, agred. but once people ask.. they need to go somewhere.
[02:59] <JaneW> mhz: well I am more than happy for translations and local language support etc to happen...
[03:00] <mhz> ok, then: ThisPage, ThisPageEs, ThisPage/Es ?
[03:00] <sivang> this is an edubuntu meeting now?
[03:00] <jsgotangco> sort of
[03:01] <JaneW> sivang: yes just finioshing
[03:01] <jsgotangco> just ending
[03:01] <mhz> jsgotangco: LOL
[03:01] <JaneW> finishing even
[03:01] <sivang> :)
[03:01] <sivang> wasn't listed on the topic
[03:01] <JaneW> mhz: um... dunno, who has an opinion jsgotangco ?
[03:01] <JaneW> sivang: it was I removed it a few minutes ago when I added the next meeting date ;)
[03:01] <jsgotangco> sivang: we're notorious gatecrashers :)
[03:02] <jsgotangco> JaneW: sure, wiki entries on translations are always welcome...
[03:02] <mhz> JaneW: will that also mean that 'loco' teams should have their own servers?
[03:02] <jsgotangco> mhz: edubuntu loco?
[03:02] <jsgotangco> there is such?
[03:02] <JaneW> jsgotangco: but should the pages be listed as: ThisPage, ThisPageEs, ThisPage/Es ?
[03:02] <jsgotangco> oh
[03:02] <mhz> i dont know, just using what you guys mentioned a little ago
[03:02] <jsgotangco> I would prefer ThisPage/Es
[03:03] <jsgotangco> mhz: if there's no Ubuntu Chile, start one
[03:03] <jsgotangco> JaneW: i don't think its needed at the moment
[03:03] <JaneW> mhz: ok ThisPage/Es then...
[03:03] <jsgotangco> we're very niche....
[03:03] <mhz> jsgotangco: ubuntu people concern is ubuntu, not edubuntu.
[03:03] <JaneW> jsgotangco: I like to think of it as l33t :P
[03:04] <jsgotangco> mhz: edubuntu is still ubuntu
[03:04] <jsgotangco> ubuntu people can support edubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu whatever
[03:04] <JaneW> feel free to carry on, just clean up and lock the door when you leave.
[03:04] <JaneW> will see you all in #edubuntu in a bit
[03:04] <jsgotangco> nahh im gonna start looking at bugzilla
[03:05] <mhz> jsgotangco: yes and no. If we talk about ubuntu, I can then ask and support for linux generla stuff (kernel, hw, etc) If we discuss about edubuntu is focused on educational tools
[03:06] <jsgotangco> mhz: whatever its not like the tools are complex, they're quit easy actually but then i am not an educator i wouldnt know how things run so....
[03:06] <mhz> ok
[03:06] <jsgotangco> i would tend to think its more social rather than technology involved
[03:06] <mhz> hmmm, yes maybe.
[03:06] <pips1> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
[03:07] <pips1> more to follow...
[03:07] <pips1> :-)
[03:07] <mhz> jsgotangco: yesterday a guy asked me about mp3 conversion. For me, that is ubuntu channel
[03:07] <jsgotangco> mhz: and a friend of mine installed edubuntu on a laptop...so...
[03:08] <mhz> hehehe
[03:08] <mhz> I use this laptop as an edubuntu server :)
[03:08] <mhz> 'demo mobile'
[03:08] <jsgotangco> i got 3 ubuntu flavours here
[03:09] <jsgotangco> ok moving to #edubuntu
[03:10] <JaneW> pips1: awesome thanks!!!
[04:34] <cyphase> hey everyone
[09:52] <\sh> or out
[09:52] <ajmitch> Nafallo: that's useful at a CC meeting, perhaps... :)
[09:52] <\sh> or on or off
[09:53] <Nafallo> that's ALWAYS useful to know when a meeting starts ;-)
[09:57] <ajmitch> all we need to do is say 'bddebian is doing it' :)
[09:57] <siretart> hrhr
[09:58] <fabbione> evening everybody
[09:58] <Nafallo> can't we say siretart are doing s/svn/bzr/g to? :-)
[09:58] <dholbach> hi fabbione
[09:58] <dholbach> nice to have you here
[09:58] <Nafallo> fabbione: evening dude :-).
[09:58] <fabbione> dholbach: thanks my wife that falled asleep too fast and i am dead bored :P
[09:58] <ajmitch> hello fabbione
[09:59] <Nafallo> hehe
[09:59] <dholbach> fabbione: that's a good excuse to hang out with motus! rock on! :)
[09:59] <Loiosh> Haha
[10:00] <ajmitch> alright, sounds like it's meeting time
[10:00] <Loiosh> bd, you got voted into doing everything.
[10:00] <bddebian3> fabbione: :-)
[10:00] <dholbach> fabbione: absolutely
[10:00] <bddebian3> Loiosh: W00t, thanks
[10:00] <Loiosh> Welcome =)
[10:00] <dholbach> right... here we go
[10:00] <ogra> meep
[10:00] <ajmitch> do we have an ogra?
[10:00] <ajmitch> we do!
[10:01] <ogra> :)
[10:01] <bddebian3> An Ogre?
[10:01] <sivang> oiii
[10:01] <dholbach> first item on the agenda is: Is there a need of Kernels in Universe? If so, what are the problems with his, are there any problems at all? I think it would be good, to have BenC or fabbione as (Ex-) Kernel Maintainers for Ubuntu with us in this discussion. (StephanHermann)
[10:01] <sivang> motu meeting and I'm missing it :-)(
[10:01] <dholbach> i'm sure \sh will tell us a bit about it
[10:01] <ajmitch> fabbione: useful that you're here then
[10:01] <fabbione> ajmitch: that's why i am here
[10:01] <dholbach> (the agenda is at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting )
[10:01] <ajmitch> ok
[10:02] <fabbione> \sh: can you please explain everybody what that entry exactly mean?
[10:02] <fabbione> or who proposed via \sh please speak up
[10:02] <ajmitch> hi sistpoty
[10:02] <ogra> fabbione, you know yourself that we had various requests for patched kernels...
[10:02] <Lathiat> bing
[10:02] <sistpoty> hi folks
[10:03] <ajmitch> fabbione: for example, we would like to have kernels with non-mainline patches, like grsec+PaX
[10:03] <ogra> low latency audio kernel etc...
[10:03] <sivang> ogra: that would be nice to have
[10:03] <fabbione> ok
[10:03] <fabbione> BenC and I did discuss this issue
[10:03] <fabbione> and we do not agree to have kernels in universe for several reasons
[10:03] <ogra> so the point here today is to have a decision if we want to allow such specialized kernels in universe or not
[10:03] <fabbione> or better
[10:04] <fabbione> we do agree that we do not want kernels in universe
[10:04] <fabbione> here is a list of reasons:
[10:04] <bddebian> It does seem a little touchy
[10:04] <ogra> bddebian, it is...
[10:04] <\sh> sry
[10:04] <fabbione> - there are already too many kernel flavours around and users are already confused anough
[10:05] <ajmitch> \sh: no matter, I would have raised the question anyway
[10:05] <ogra> but you force people who want to base work on such kernels to use an external repo
[10:05] <fabbione> - it will mean for the MOTU's to maintain a duplicate source
[10:05] <\sh> ohone
[10:05] <ogra> fabbione, nope
[10:05] <fabbione> please let me finish
[10:05] <\sh> phone
[10:05] <fabbione> if we are here talk, first i want to give out our explanations
[10:06] <fabbione> otherwise if you already decided, my presence here is pointless
[10:06] <dholbach> i'm eager to listen
[10:06] <fabbione> so let's try again
[10:06] <fabbione> - there are already too many kernel flavours around and users are already confused anough
[10:06] <fabbione> - it will mean for the MOTU's to maintain a duplicate source
[10:06] <fabbione> - universe kernel will be highly patches and very difficult to maintain even security wise
[10:07] <BenC> the problem is that if we start to create specialized kernels, we set a precedent that cannot be stopped
[10:07] <fabbione> - if we create a kernel for each pet-project inside Ubuntu, we will explode in a thousands of kernels
[10:07] <BenC> everyone will want their special purpose kernel ot be a flavor in our repo
[10:07] <fabbione> - the patches you want to apply are extremely intrusive
[10:07] <ajmitch> in the security case, it was something suggested in the proactive security BOFs at UDU, that we have universe kernels - better suggestions are welcome
[10:07] <ogra> we wouldnt touch them, the person who brought them in would be tied to them since they would have special purposes i.e. audio team low latency patched
[10:08] <fabbione> ogra: that does not work
[10:08] <ogra> fabbione, we didnt even talk about any patches yet
[10:08] <\sh> damn
[10:08] <\sh> phone company bla
[10:08] <ogra> its a discussion if we want to allow it generally
[10:08] <\sh> ok..now
[10:08] <fabbione> if universe kernel goes out of sync with main, you get 2 different feature sets
[10:08] <fabbione> that pushes even more confusion to users
[10:08] <BenC> ogra: generally, I think any kernel flavors should be closely tied to our main source tree
[10:09] <fabbione> ogra: that's why i am giving you detailed reasons on why we do not want to allow them
[10:09] <dholbach> i tend to agree with fabbione, i believe, the workload that benc and fabbione cope with could hardly be accomplished within motu, wouldn't work an testing with the kernel team make more sense?
[10:09] <ogra> fabbione, also i'm not against you but try to take position for people that are not here or not MOTU yet but would want such patches... personally i agree, but as a MOTU guy i'm ambivalen
[10:09] <BenC> things start getting even more ugly if people want to use linux-restricted-modules with these special flavors
[10:09] <ogra> t
[10:09] <Lathiat> dholbach: its not so much testing, as specific patches people want that are too intrusive etc to be put in the main kernel
[10:10] <siretart> fabbione: we had a suggestions earlier on #ubuntu-motu. Would it be possible to provide infrastructure to faciliate users to patch and bake kernels themselves? we could put some *-patches packages in universe and point people to some documentation how to do that themselves
[10:10] <Lathiat> dholbach: pax, selinux, low latency audio, realtime, etc
[10:10] <Lathiat> grsecurity
[10:10] <fabbione> siretart: such instrastructure has always been there
[10:10] <BenC> siretart: that's a goal of dapper
[10:10] <siretart> BenC: is there a wiki yet for that?
[10:10] <fabbione> siretart: if people keep asking for it, it means that they have no clue on how to build a kernel, and that scares me even more
[10:10] <fabbione> siretart: + to see them maintaing one
[10:10] <BenC> siretart: when I say goal, I mean unofficially at this point :)
[10:11] <Lathiat> it would definately seem it'd be much cleaner to have people roll their own kernels so they can keep them up to date etc themselves as needed
[10:11] <ogra> fabbione, BenC, also note that sabdfls highest priority for universe is to have everything available without forcing users to add external repos
[10:11] <ogra> thats why we have to pull in apt-get.org every release...
[10:11] <\sh> ogra: I didn't see dholbach pull in kernel repos
[10:12] <fabbione> ogra: there is a reasonable balance of things we want and sanity of universe towards users
[10:12] <Nafallo> or just bake the modules for the current one... :-)
[10:12] <ogra> if we deny support for such kernels people will offer them externally
[10:12] <Lathiat> would it be possible to provide linux-patch-2.6.12-grsec or something, that was a grsec vX patch, but that applied cleanly to our source trees (this being the key difference to the upstream patch).. some people may be able to maintain that much or something
[10:12] <\sh> the kernel is heart of all distributions
[10:12] <ajmitch> Nafallo: the patches usually aren't just modules
[10:12] <Lathiat> naf	its nto always a matter of modules
[10:12] <fabbione> ogra: people are already confused by having 5 falvours of kernels for i386 on main
[10:12] <Lathiat> Nafallo: lots of things are for more intrusive than that
[10:12] <BenC> ogra: think of it this way, if someone wants a grsec kernel, even if they base it on our kernel repo, they still to maintain atleast 3 arch's and ~4 flavors on each one of those (cpu and smp flavors)
[10:12] <ogra> yup
[10:12] <Lathiat> however if we have the patch thing, it needs to be maintained and kept up to scratch with the current kernel, and people lose interest, etc, and it would suck having an out of date patch
[10:12] <fabbione> ogra: that list could explose exponentially for each pet kernel
[10:13] <ogra> fabbione, it will.. surely
[10:13] <Nafallo> Lathiat, ajmitch: I know. but generally. some things probably can be modules, like trulux vsecurity :-).
[10:13] <fabbione> ogra: and do you consider that good?
[10:13] <fabbione> ogra: or dangerous for the user?
[10:13] <ogra> fabbione, i'm taking a role here... its not my opinion...
[10:13] <ajmitch> Nafallo: which is being shipped separately
[10:13] <fabbione> ogra: also.. what will happen when a user ask feature foo+bar?
[10:13] <ogra> i dont consider the whole idea good...
[10:14] <fabbione> ogra: are you going to create extra combinend kernels?
[10:14] <fabbione> to what level of aggregation?
[10:14] <dholbach> especially given the maintenance part of it: debian hast quite a lot of kernel-patch-bla packages which weren't touched for ages
[10:14] <ogra> fabbione, he has to found a team that cares for foo and bar
[10:14] <ajmitch> ogra: I can think of at least 3 different kernel patches that the hardened team would want
[10:14] <Nafallo> ajmitch: where? he has an external repo for them atm, no?
[10:14] <BenC> yeah, what if someone wants low-latency+grsec
[10:14] <ajmitch> Nafallo: yes
[10:14] <ajmitch> Nafallo: you've used them, right?
[10:14] <ogra> ajmitch, but they would go into one image, wouldnt they ?
[10:14] <ajmitch> ogra: no
[10:14] <fabbione> ogra: up till now the MOTU team has always landed in #ubuntu-kernel to ask kernel related stuff..
[10:14] <Nafallo> ajmitch: nope, I've only built them for amd64 when he called for help with that.
[10:15] <ajmitch> not necessarily :)
[10:15] <fabbione> ogra: that means that none of the MOTU is dealing to take care of these pkgs
[10:15] <ogra> fabbione, yup
[10:15] <fabbione> ogra: so from a MOTU point of view, you should be the first to say no
[10:15] <sistpoty> ajmitch: would only the kernel be affected or would userspace packages need to modified as well?
[10:15] <ogra> it would be a requirement to fully take care of it indeed
[10:15] <fabbione> specially if people asking for these features can't maintain them themselves
[10:15] <\sh> ogra: this is impossible...someone who asks for a kernel in universe, has to know what he's doing...and if so, he can provide the patched source to the world...because we (and I personally don't) can't support them...thinking of dapper this is really danguerous if we provide more kernels then the main one...and even this is quite difficult to support over 5 years
[10:16] <ogra> fabbione, nobody here will take the role of the people who would want these kernels, thats why i do it to try to give a balance in the discussion
[10:16] <ajmitch> sistpoty: usually just kernel, with some userland support for some of them
[10:16] <ajmitch> ogra: we could easily end up with > 50 kernel binary packages in dapper
[10:17] <BenC> I've an idea, how about people who want these kernels start managing them externally to universe to start
[10:17] <fabbione> ogra: also.. do you all realize that these kernels will be obsoleted the day after the first USN?
[10:17] <fabbione> BenC: ++
[10:17] <ogra> it would require a good amount of consideration whichto allow and which not
[10:17] <Lathiat> it seems to be it would definately be much more sane for people who need these kinds of features to do them themselves.. i mean the patches i've heard of (low latency audio, grsec, vserver) all seem pretty specific and for people who generally know what their doing, not something to be used by idiots
[10:17] <BenC> if they get maintained well enough, and there aren't a lot of problems, then we an bring this back for consideration
[10:17] <ogra> BenC,++
[10:18] <siretart> what about packaging kernel-patches?
[10:18] <BenC> there wont be a kernel-patches for dapper
[10:18] <fabbione> siretart: that will fail at the first USN
[10:18] <BenC> kernel source will become native
[10:18] <siretart> as dholbach pointed out, debian already has some of these
[10:18] <\sh> ogra: as I explained in -motu: people who wants to have some things in the kernel, which is not there already, will build their own stuff...when they can...if not, they will ask someone...and we shouldn't be the people (as team and bound to ubuntu as name) who are doing this...if I do it in my sparetime and under my own name, and provide a kernel with this and that in it, it's something else
[10:18] <siretart> so what to do with the already existing ones in universe?
[10:18] <Loiosh> BenC++
[10:18] <fabbione> siretart: we do have different security release procedures than debian
[10:18] <dholbach> siretart: i morgue'd all of them for hoary :)
[10:19] <siretart> dholbach: ah
[10:19] <fabbione> siretart: let's make a simple example
[10:19] <fabbione> siretart: kernel foo in main
[10:19] <fabbione> kernel-patch feature bar in universe
[10:19] <fabbione> we release
[10:19] <ogra> \sh, nope, but if we would allow such kernels we'd need a very clear policy to avoid 50 binarys ... but it seems pretty clear that we all dont want it
[10:19] <fabbione> all nice and dany
[10:19] <fabbione> dandy
[10:20] <ogra> and i think BenC's suggestion is the best so far...
[10:20] <fabbione> siretart: at the first security release for main
[10:20] <fabbione> kernel-patch might not even apply anymoer
[10:20] <fabbione> siretart: that will be the hell of the user
[10:20] <fabbione> siretart: security or feature?
[10:20] <bddebian> eeks
[10:20] <dholbach> Lathiat: they most have come in in breezy and i didnt have the time to take care of them
[10:20] <Lathiat> dholbach: righto
[10:20] <siretart> fabbione: maybe updatable via -updates?
[10:21] <siretart> fabbione: I perfectly see your point
[10:21] <TiMiDo> hey everyone
[10:21] <\sh> ogra: I'm really afraid of thinking that universe-kernel-main_rev-with-patches-for-foo is being regarded as supported kernel...which happens tfom time to time with packages out of universe, because the communication about supported main/restricted and unsupported universe/multiverse is sometimes b0rked
[10:21] <ogra> siretart, if its a security update, then via -security
[10:21] <fabbione> siretart: i can ensure you that the maintainer will be too busy taking care of the last shiny code
[10:21] <fabbione> ogra: nope.. for kernel-patch is -updates
[10:21] <siretart> fabbione: the thing is: there ARE people outside wanting these 'special feature' kernels. The question here is, what can WE do to support them?
[10:22] <ogra> \sh, no kernel in universe would ever be supported
[10:22] <\sh> siretart: testing the features and implementing them in one of the next releases
[10:22] <Lathiat> we can support them by not letting them random foo into universe
[10:22] <dholbach> so what is the best solution for this? try to postpone all these requests until we have a proper infrastructure (i refer to BenC's unofficial goal)?
[10:22] <fabbione> siretart: answer: the dpatch system has been there forever, they can apply their patches with very little knowledge
[10:22] <bddebian> Don't WE have enough problems supporting "I want the latest foo" ? :-)
[10:22] <TiMiDo> hey people sorry for my rudness, i will love to join the motu team, =)
[10:22] <ajmitch> ogra: users still think that they are supported - see 2.6.11 fun
[10:22] <ogra> dholbach, do we actually *have* theye requests ?
[10:22] <ogra> these even
[10:22] <fabbione> also
[10:22] <bddebian> TiMiDo: Are you an Ubuntu Member yet?
[10:22] <\sh> ogra: u see, but the kernel must be very reliable, and therefor I would like to see (as user) a special work on those packages...because kernel has to be healthy
[10:22] <BenC> siretart: I think we should support their efforts with docs and wiki entries pointing to their personal work
[10:22] <fabbione> another important factor to take into account
[10:22] <dholbach> ogra: i thought you had, because you "fought for the balance" :)
[10:22] <TiMiDo> bddebiann nope
[10:23] <ogra> i thought thios discussion is rather hypothetical
[10:23] <Lathiat> TiMiDo: stop by #ubuntu-motu after the meeting
[10:23] <TiMiDo> ok =)
[10:23] <BenC> siretart: the people who want these kernels in ubuntu need to take the first step
[10:23] <siretart> fabbione: this means they have to have some packaging skills for creating a dpatch and building the package.
[10:23] <fabbione> what user base do these kernels have?
[10:23] <siretart> fabbione: but I personally am fine with that
[10:23] <fabbione> siretart: a dpatch is a normal diff with 3 extra lines
[10:23] <fabbione> if they claim to be kernel maintainers
[10:23] <siretart> jupp. I know
[10:23] <fabbione> they know how to do that
[10:23] <fabbione> or where to look
[10:23] <fabbione> there is no need of a special infrastructure
[10:23] <ogra> dholbach, i gave hypothetical people a hypothetical voice ;) i was there when the audio taem died because they couldnt have their low latency kernel in universe
[10:24] <dholbach> for baking stuff themselves
[10:24] <fabbione> i do not believe somebody that claims to be a kernel maintainer cannot look into a package
[10:24] <TiMiDo> well what kernel are we talking about?
[10:24] <ogra> TiMiDo, universe kernels
[10:24] <TiMiDo> oh alright,
[10:24] <\sh> TiMiDo: wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
[10:25] <Lathiat> TiMiDo: We are talking about allowing kernels into universe, ones with specalized patches, grsec, pax, vserver, low latency audio, etc, see the MOTUMeeting page
[10:25] <TiMiDo> thnx \sh
[10:25] <dholbach> ok... how much involvement and serious arguing do we want to allow *-patches?
[10:25] <dholbach> so we can settle the matter reasonably
[10:25] <siretart> just theoretically. Some MOTU (or MOTUWannabe) wants to create and support a feature patched kernel like linux vserver or something. What should we tell him? What if he promises to give some support to his kernels?
[10:25] <fabbione> dholbach: we won't allow -patches for the reason i explained before..
[10:26] <ogra> ok, so the conclusion is we'll not allow kernels in universe for dapper but will review this if someone comes up with a well maintained kernel he offered in a external repo for some time ??
[10:26] <dholbach> fabbione: alright, or custom kernels in universe
[10:26] <fabbione> i think BenC idea of watching these kenrels activity in external repository first is a good first step
[10:26] <sistpoty> hm... what about the idea to form a motu-kernel team... members of this should then be the only team to allow foo-bar kernel stuffs or eternally deny them to come to universe
[10:26] <\sh> siretart: deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu <distroname> black-hole
[10:26] <siretart> I'd propose to tell him to put his kernel in some 'private' repo and advertise them there..
[10:26] <sistpoty> so there would be no more then max 2 different flavors in universe
[10:26] <Lathiat> sistpoty: i think thats not really needed until we end up with the first idea suggested - someone who has one they maintained for a while
[10:26] <fabbione> sistpoty: there is no MOTU-kernel.. as i said before..
[10:27] <siretart> \sh: this requires more fiddling with dak. you don't really want elmo to do that ;)
[10:27] <Lathiat> dak?
[10:27] <\sh> siretart: yes I don't want it...but you know what a black-hole is...;)
[10:27] <siretart> Lathiat: debian archive kit. ftpmaster software for ubuntu/debian
[10:27] <siretart> \sh: ah, now I see.
[10:28] <Nafallo> siretart: dak will be launchpad soon ;-)
[10:28] <ogra> sistpoty, the way to go is to offer tham in a external repo for some time and then come back and ask for new discussion
[10:28] <\sh> I see it like this: As a "ubuntu official team" we should avoid support work for not main maintained kernel packages...what we're doing as private people..is really something else
[10:28] <Nafallo> atleast a lot of it from what I've seen :-)
[10:28] <fabbione> ogra: what about the MOTU review archive?
[10:28] <sistpoty> ogra: ok... i agree fully for this... maybe when one "is ready" then, we even have some nice tools ;)
[10:29] <ogra> fabbione, thats not an archive
[10:29] <dholbach> fabbione, BenC: do you want to have those guys (that might come up) working with the kernel team, review/discussion/involvement-wise?
[10:29] <fabbione> ogra: can it be turned into one?
[10:29] <siretart> fabbione: you mean revu?
[10:29] <\sh> and if there is a possibilty, because one MOTU or someone else with enough kernel knowledge, is providing a good report for a special kernel feature, main kernel dev can think about including them into main kernel stream
[10:29] <fabbione> siretart: i think so
[10:29] <ogra> fabbione, why ? then motu will be responsible
[10:29] <siretart> fabbione: revu will be an archive, but even if, that would be a source only archive
[10:29] <\sh> fabbione: no...
[10:30] <ogra> fabbione, if someone wants to offer such a kernel he should care for it himself...
[10:30] <fabbione> dholbach: it depends.. we already have people coming there
[10:30] <BenC> dholbach: yeah, they'll need to keep in touch so they can follow our development cycle
[10:30] <TiMiDo> why don't we just build a kernel from scratch?
[10:30] <ogra> if *we* adopt such a kernel we will care, help and offer the universe archive
[10:30] <fabbione> dholbach: the main issue is that as soon as we tell them to prepare their own kernels, they all disappear
[10:30] <dholbach> fabbione: i can, sadly, imagine
[10:31] <BenC> yeah, but that's the whole point of the excercise to have them maintain the kernels outside of universe first :)
[10:31] <ogra> yup
[10:31] <fabbione> dholbach: so i am glad to see working people around
[10:31] <fabbione> BenC: eeheh
[10:31] <dholbach> yeah
[10:31] <dholbach> ok, i think the matter is settled then?
[10:31] <fabbione> dholbach: but just askers.. we had plenty :)
[10:31] <Lathiat> yep
[10:31] <ogra> sounds like
[10:31] <siretart> dholbach: matter resolution: NO :)
[10:31] <dholbach> fabbione: thanks for telling me... again - i got the pointer ;)
[10:31] <\sh> I don't want to be responsible for non booting and oopsing kernels
[10:32] <fabbione> dholbach: eheh :)
[10:32] <dholbach> somebody added the 2nd item on the agenda:
[10:32] <dholbach>  Guidelines for using dpatch - many debian maintainers see our use of it as excessive, for the small patches we add.
[10:32] <fabbione> dholbach: didn't you offer volunteer as kenrel maintainer?
[10:32] <dholbach> "somebody": please speak up
[10:32] <ajmitch> I was going to add the infinity quote as well, but thought better of it :)
[10:32] <dholbach> fabbione: sure linux-image-2.6-crack-*
[10:32] <TiMiDo> why crack?
[10:32] <\sh> fabbione / BenC : Thx for coming around :)
[10:32] <dholbach> ajmitch: put the quote here :)
[10:33] <BenC> no problem
[10:33] <ogra> yeah, thanks for taking the time
[10:33] <fabbione> no problem
[10:33] <ajmitch> ogra: this is part of being polite & reasonable with debian
[10:33] <dholbach> yeah, thank you very much, BenC, fabbione - it was a pleasure :)
[10:33] <dholbach> bye
[10:33] <siretart> bye fabbione . and thanks for coming!
[10:33] <\sh> fabbione: comfort your wife now :)
[10:33] <ogra> bye
[10:33] <dholbach> ok... ajmitch, we're all ears
[10:33] <BenC> thanks for inviting us for input
[10:33] <fabbione> \sh: she is sleeping
[10:33] <\sh> fabbione: u should do the same :)
[10:33] <Loiosh> Hahaha
[10:33] <ajmitch> < infinity> Universe should ideally deviate from Debian as little as possible, or you guys will be up shit creek.
[10:34] <dholbach> haha
[10:34] <dholbach> that's excellent
[10:34] <\sh> fabbione: it's cold at my place...I would like to have a wife who is warming my feet ;)
[10:34] <ajmitch> bye BenC, thanks
[10:34] <dholbach> that's something, seb128 had some words to say to, too
[10:34] <Loiosh> You guys.. =)
[10:34] <ogra> ajmitch, sabdfl sounde quite different todasy
[10:34] <fabbione> \sh: did you lose cita again?
[10:34] <ajmitch> ogra: I know, but that's just sabdfl ;)
[10:34] <siretart> a really promising solution seem to me the wig and pen format, but it is not here yet :(
[10:34] <\sh> fabbione: cita?
[10:34] <ogra> \sh, i couls offer some animals
[10:34] <ogra> *could
[10:34] <fabbione> \sh: never heard of tarzan?
[10:35] <ogra> cheetah
[10:35] <koke> siretart: what's wrong with dpatch?
[10:35] <ajmitch> I know that we use dpatch a lot, even for a tiny patch
[10:35] <seb128> dholbach: about dpatch or patching ?
[10:35] <\sh> oh cheetah ;)
[10:35] <dholbach> yeah, and the delta
[10:35] <Loiosh> dpatch
[10:35] <dholbach> seb128: ajmitch < infinity> Universe should ideally deviate from Debian as little as possible, or you guys will be up shit creek.
[10:35] <siretart> koke: it is really awfull to debdiff 2 source packages with dpatch
[10:35] <ajmitch> which annoys DDs when we go making intrusive changes like that, which we have to carry around for the rest of our lives...
[10:35] <\sh> fabbione: well...no comment for now ;)
 no, sending fixes at the right place and asking syncs is the way to go
 most of the motu changes give extra work
[10:35] <ajmitch> the less delta we carry, the better
[10:36] <ajmitch> seb128: agreed
[10:36] <ajmitch> we keep on creating more work for ourselves
[10:36] <siretart> what are "small" changes?
[10:36] <siretart> up to how many lines a patch is small?
[10:36] <seb128> changes to .desktop files by example
[10:36] <dholbach> and we don't forward small patches to the DDs enough
[10:36] <seb128> to take one
[10:36] <\sh> seb128: dpatch includes plain diff -ur as well?
[10:36] <siretart> what about re-libtoolizing package? what about auto-reconfiguring stuff?
[10:36] <seb128> yep
[10:36] <ajmitch> at last count (with grep-dctrl), we had > 1200 packages in breezy universe with an *ubuntu* version
[10:37] <ajmitch> that's 1200 potential merges
[10:37] <siretart> *sigh*
[10:37] <seb128> siretart: anything that could be fixed upstream by upstream or Debian should have a patch send here to start
[10:37] <seb128> make a fix
[10:37] <seb128> send it to Debian/Upstream
[10:37] <seb128> wait for them
[10:37] <ogra> ajmitch, seb128, as sabdfl said, ubuntuX will be dropped as a version number :)
[10:37] <seb128> ask a sync or get it synced automatically
[10:37] <Lathiat> ogra: it will?
[10:38] <\sh> seb128: who can we be sure, that debian/upstream are including our changes?
[10:38] <ajmitch> ogra: I don't care about that
[10:38] <siretart> ogra: what?!
[10:38] <seb128> please don't troll
[10:38] <seb128> STOP
[10:38] <ogra> thats his plan
[10:38] <\sh> s/who/how/
[10:38] <Lathiat> bah
[10:38] <seb128> don't start trolling
[10:38] <ajmitch> ogra: irrelvant to this
[10:38] <ogra> ok
[10:38] <bddebian> And packages that have no .desktop.  Or the stuff wrong with X11?
[10:38] <seb128> the meeting have enough to say without starting on that
[10:38] <ogra> ajmitch, even if i see it very relevant
[10:38] <seb128> bddebian: create a .desktop, send it upstream
[10:38] <ajmitch> ogra: it's versioning, not patching
[10:38] <seb128> so we get it translated
[10:38] <seb128> and no sync to do
[10:38] <ajmitch> lets just stay on the topic of dpatch usage
[10:39] <bddebian> seb128: I have been asked if the paths are the same?
[10:39] <Lathiat> so, when i started out
[10:39] <\sh> seb128: many of my changes I send to debian or upstream are "dropped because no use" or "not included, because upstream dev doesn't want it"
[10:39] <Lathiat> people were recommending to integrate dpatch
[10:39] <Lathiat> for aptches
[10:39] <ogra> ajmitch, there is no difference we talk about debian<->ubuntu relationship here
[10:39] <Lathiat> even smallish ones
[10:39] <ajmitch> Lathiat: yes, and we've learnt since then
[10:39] <Lathiat> (i thought it was kind of silly) -- are we now sayign thats a bad idea
[10:39] <Lathiat> right
[10:39] <\sh> seb128: so the question must be: diff.gz or dpatch/diff -ur
[10:39] <ajmitch> ogra: and I'm talking about the ever-increasing workload we make for ourselves
[10:39] <Lathiat> but if they already have a patch system, we should try to use that, right?
[10:39] <ajmitch> Lathiat: yes, definitely
[10:40] <seb128> \sh: dpatch needs to change debian/control,debian/rules .. that sucks
[10:40] <ogra> ajmitch, if my patches dont get accepted upstream or arent even relevant for them, i want to have a easy maintainable dpatch
[10:40] <Kamion> \sh: you should be consistent with the existing packaging, in general
[10:40] <dholbach> Lathiat: sure
[10:40] <Kamion> that's been a rule of general sanity for QA work in Debian for years and years
[10:40] <ajmitch> seb128 has raised a good point about us failing to push enough upstream to debian
[10:40] <dholbach> nice to have you here, Kamion :)
[10:40] <Kamion> "do not mess with the maintainer's build system"
[10:40] <seb128> right
[10:40] <ogra> i agree that for a 10 line change n rules or something else done in the debian dir we shouldnt use dpatch
[10:40] <sistpoty> [22:36:49]  <siretart> what about re-libtoolizing package? what about auto-reconfiguring stuff?
[10:40] <\sh> seb128: and I like a clean orig.tar.gz where the patch is included during build time...so I know what is being patched without grepping down a big diff.gz e.g.
[10:41] <ogra> but for changes on the source i'll always use it
[10:41] <Lathiat> quite, im thinking we should have a "motu send patches to debian" day
[10:41] <ajmitch> ogra: if you were patching rules from dpatch I'd have to worry ;)
[10:41] <ogra> ajmitch, you know what i mean...
[10:41] <\sh> Kamion: if there is a dpatch system in maintainers package, -> dpatch is used
[10:41] <Lathiat> ogra: what if you have a 1 line source patch, and there is no patch system in the original package
[10:41] <Kamion> \sh: sure, that's obviously sensible
[10:41] <seb128> Lathiat: every motu should send his patch before uploading something creating a delta
[10:41] <ogra> trivial changes in the debian dir... uudecoding a png for a .desktop file etc
[10:41] <Kamion> what's not sensible is adding dpatch when it wasn't there to start with
[10:41] <Lathiat> seb128: right
[10:41] <Lathiat> seb128: what about when the debian guy is unresponsive ish
[10:42] <Lathiat> e.g. say 4 weeks passed and still no ack
[10:42] <ogra> seb128, tahts something revu should provide
[10:42] <seb128> Lathiat: you can upload, I've not said to create 0 delta
[10:42] <Lathiat> seb128: just to try not to
[10:42] <siretart> seb128: I created a lot of deltas just by adjusting build dependencies for some strange transitions. There are tons of such 'modifications' :/
[10:42] <seb128> but to send patches upstream or to Debian
[10:42] <\sh> Kamion: when there is no patch at all, and I had to patch the orig source, I used most of the time diff -ur...and debian/* stuff i did without diff -ur/dpatch bla...
[10:43] <seb128> siretart: send upstream what can be send upstream (ie: new desktop files), send patches for crashers/etc to Debian
[10:43] <seb128> siretart: for the transitions we have to deal with, that's fine
[10:44] <Kamion> \sh: ok, I don't know what you personally have been doing, it's just something I've been getting complaints about from people I work with on a regular basis in Debian
[10:44] <\sh> (and we have to be carefull during the next universe/main sync process if some packags are not CXX trans  ready ) ;)
[10:44] <ajmitch> and we want to avoid complaints as much as possible
[10:44] <Kamion> and it's making my relationship with them difficult because I'm having to apologise for things like that
[10:44] <ajmitch> the MOTU team doesn't have a great name in debian, sorry
[10:44] <\sh> Kamion: I read joeys blog entries ;)
[10:44] <sistpoty> seb128 / Kamion: what would be the most gentle way to send these? directly to the maintainer or by bugs in BTS?
[10:45] <Kamion> sistpoty: bug reports are the normal approach ...
[10:45] <TiMiDo> sistpoty maintainer
[10:45] <seb128> sistpoty: BTS
[10:45] <sistpoty> ok, thx
[10:45] <Kamion> ajmitch: it's ok to be less-experienced, as long as people are willing to learn :-)
[10:45] <ajmitch> they can track patches in the BTS
[10:45] <Nafallo> there is a good opportunity for us to bring the delta down now that mom starts again I guess, some extra work. but I'm positive we will survive that :-).
[10:46] <ajmitch> Kamion: yes, I though this point needed to be raised, we don't want to be tainted :)
[10:46] <Nafallo> we just pick the deb version and send what we did upstream :-P.
[10:47] <dholbach> but i'd still like every motu hopeful to be able to cope with all patch systems
[10:47] <ogra> dholbach++
[10:47] <ajmitch> Kamion: btw you or mdz will approve for -updates?
[10:47] <seb128> easy way is to put the patch to debian/ubuntu-patches and to apply it to the source package
[10:47] <dholbach> (just raised the point, because i think that will go into review practices as well)
[10:47] <Kamion> ajmitch: just mdz, at least unless the workload spikes a lot
[10:47] <ajmitch> Kamion: ok
[10:47] <seb128> so no need of change the packaging system and the maintainer has the patch if he wants it
[10:48] <ogra> seb128, with a straight patch -pX command ?
[10:48] <sistpoty> but I still didn't get the conclusion on when to use patch system... 1) only when there from dd 2) on large patches (define large!) 3) s.th. else?
[10:48] <ajmitch> seb128: good idea
[10:48] <seb128> right
[10:48] <ogra> fine with me
[10:48] <seb128> so it's applied
[10:48] <seb128> and you don't have to read the .diff.gz to figure the change
[10:48] <ogra> as long as we still maintain the patches separately..
[10:48] <\sh> seb128: u mean instead of debian/patches ?
[10:48] <ajmitch> ogra: that would have them separately, just not applied at build time
[10:48] <ogra> \sh, yes
[10:48] <Lathiat> ogra: how do you mean?
[10:48] <ajmitch> \sh: just a way of keeping them apart
[10:49] <ogra> ajmitch, yup
[10:49] <Nafallo> I'll guess changes in debian/[rules,control]  should just be documented correctly in debian/changelog, right? :-)
[10:49] <TiMiDo> Nafallo right
[10:49] <ajmitch> Nafallo: of course
[10:49] <dholbach> Nafallo: ++
[10:49] <ogra> Nafallo, additionally
[10:49] <sivang> what part of the MOTU agenda is being discussed ?
[10:49] <seb128> \sh: I mean something not used by the packaging
[10:49] <Nafallo> good, no ubuntu-patch for that one :-P
[10:49] <dholbach> we should be more disciplined about that
[10:49] <ajmitch> sivang: dpatch
[10:49] <ogra> sivang, second
[10:49] <\sh> well...I don't see the real difference...it's a nono to mix up dpatch and plain diff -ur patches
[10:50] <dholbach> \sh: if you have dpatch, use dpatch
[10:50] <sivang> ajmitch: thanks ;)
[10:50] <Lathiat> \sh: if dpatch is alrady there, use it!
[10:50] <ogra> \sh, if dpatch is there, use it...
[10:50] <dholbach> :)
[10:50] <Lathiat> ok so if dpatch isnt there, and you need to patch the source
[10:50] <seb128> \sh: the package don't use a packaging system, don't change it to use one. Just copy your patch to debian/ubuntu-patches and apply it
[10:50] <sivang> Lathiat++
[10:50] <ogra> \sh, if its cdbs, use cdbs
[10:50] <\sh> thats what I said...is anybody doing it differently?
[10:50] <Lathiat> you should create a patch file and apply it with diff in rules?
[10:50] <ogra> else apply a normal patch
[10:50] <dholbach> \sh: some guys introduced dpatch
[10:50] <Nafallo> if you have _any_ patchsystem in place, use it :-)
[10:50] <dholbach> \sh: me amongst them (in some cases), so it's nice to see this discussion
[10:50] <sivang> seb128: if you copy it there, does it get applied automatically ?
[10:50] <Lathiat> yeh i had been too
[10:51] <ogra> me too in some cases where i certainly know the version wont survive this release
[10:51] <\sh> dholbach: phew...so I'm on the right site ;) I used only diff -ur for orig.tar.gz patches ;)
[10:51] <Lathiat> so what, you add a patch < before build and diff -R in clean?
[10:51] <ajmitch> \sh: great
[10:51] <seb128> no, it doesn't get applied
[10:51] <ajmitch> Lathiat: no, not at build time
[10:51] <ajmitch> debian/ubuntu-patches will be informative only
[10:51] <ogra> its an add on
[10:51] <Lathiat> ajmitch: apply the patch, but include the diff in debian/ubuntu-patches/ for reference?
[10:51] <sivang> so how do we apply patches if we don't have any patches application system in place? manually?
[10:51] <ajmitch> Lathiat: yes
[10:51] <Lathiat> ok!
[10:51] <ajmitch> sivang: yes
[10:51] <Lathiat> that makes sense!
[10:52] <\sh> so have it in diff.gz
[10:52] <Lathiat> i think i should go write a wiki page
[10:52] <Lathiat> detailing this
[10:52] <ajmitch> Lathiat: please do ;)
[10:52] <Nafallo> seb128: (since we lack pitti) we should follow that ubuntu-patch ida with security to in your opinion? :-)
[10:52] <sistpoty> Lathiat++
[10:52] <\sh> and debian/ubuntu-patches only for informational purposes
[10:52] <ogra> sivang, make your changes but keep a patch that reflects them
[10:52] <dholbach> Lathiat: PackagingTips? MOTUWannabeSomething?
[10:52] <Lathiat> MOTUApplyingPatches or something
[10:52] <sivang> ogra: cool, understood
[10:52] <dholbach> Lathiat: link it from everywhere :)
[10:52] <sivang> ogra: I wonder if this practice should be also followed in main ?
[10:52] <Lathiat> whwat about when we need to do things like update configure etc?
[10:53] <ogra> sivang, and use the existing patchsys if already available...
[10:53] <ajmitch> Lathiat: it's the same thing
[10:53] <seb128> Nafallo: no opinion on that
[10:53] <Nafallo> seb128: oki, I'll try to remember to ask pitti later :-)
[10:53] <Lathiat> doing ubuntu-patches would make for messy debdiffs ;)
[10:53] <ajmitch> security changes need to be as small as possible, generally
[10:53] <ajmitch> Lathiat: yes, but we can filter that part out
[10:53] <ajmitch> man filterdiff ;)
[10:53] <Lathiat> heh
[10:53] <Lathiat> ok
[10:53] <sivang> Lathiat: right
[10:54] <dholbach> ok, do we have agreed? :)
[10:54] <ajmitch> dholbach: YES!
[10:54] <dholbach> ROCK
[10:54] <\sh> if someone summarize it
[10:54] <ajmitch> now onto my next 2 points...
[10:54] <seb128> I've to go, later guys
[10:54] <ogra> cool
[10:54] <dholbach> next item on the agenda
[10:54] <Nafallo> ajmitch: should still show what we did, no? :-)
[10:54] <ajmitch> ok, thanks seb128
[10:54] <\sh> seb128: thx
[10:54] <dholbach> see you seb
[10:54] <dholbach> #
[10:54] <dholbach> Upstream Version Freeze & other milestones (AndrewMitchell)
[10:54] <dholbach>     *
[10:54] <dholbach>       We have a huge list of packages to merge, these should be finished right around UVF if not earlier. (AndrewMitchell)
[10:54] <ogra> bye seb128 thanks for coming
[10:54] <ogra> that means we'll not see new stuff probably
[10:54] <Loiosh> LoL sist =)
[10:55] <ajmitch> ogra: depends on how much time we can spend reviewing
[10:55] <dholbach> i second ajmitch's point
[10:55] <ogra> ajmitch, exactly...
[10:55] <ajmitch> and if UVF for universe lags main UVF
[10:55] <dholbach> ogra: focus != only goal
[10:55] <ogra> but we had 200 merge packages in hoary
[10:55] <sivang> ajmitch: does anyone know about the UVF prosept date?
[10:55] <ajmitch> ogra: up to 1200 for breezy
[10:55] <Lathiat> sivang: thats still being thrown around like mad by the looks of it
[10:55] <\sh> ogra: we will have more for dapper
[10:55] <ogra> dholbach, UVF *will apply* for universe this time
[10:55] <ajmitch> well breezy->dapper
[10:55] <dholbach> sivang: no, will be discussed at UBZ, i guess
[10:55] <dholbach> ogra: i know
[10:55] <Nafallo> where a lot is trasitions, no? :-)
[10:56] <\sh> Nafallo: yes
[10:56] <siretart> just a small (but I think important question). How will be syncs handled for dapper?
[10:56] <ajmitch> we have far less transitions, far more merging
[10:56] <sivang> well, given the amount of work, maybe it would be beneficial to start bugging about it?
[10:56] <dholbach> we should perfectly agree on making number one prio
[10:56] <siretart> will this go via elmo or launchpad?
[10:56] <ajmitch> sivang: ?
[10:56] <ogra> so time is very short to merge say 300 pkgs *and* get new stuff reviewed
[10:56] <\sh> siretart: MoM will handle this bug list
[10:56] <dholbach> siretart: there's a lot of confusion on the very topic
[10:56] <ajmitch> ogra: I think that most merges can be done in a few weeks
[10:56] <Lathiat> we should draw up a merging guide, we need to do things like, try reduce deltas etc, and filign bugs, etc
[10:56] <ajmitch> but we only have a few weeks
[10:56] <ajmitch> Lathiat: ++
[10:56] <sivang> ajmitch: I mean, to start maybe tryin to get someone to think about it :) if we have so much work
[10:56] <dholbach> \sh: mom is broken afaik
[10:56] <Nafallo> wow. universe are going to look clean after we've done this the right way (sending things upstream...) :-)
[10:56] <ogra> ajmitch, we only have a few weeks :)
[10:56] <ajmitch> sivang: why do you think I raised it here?
[10:56] <ajmitch> 09:56 < ajmitch> but we only have a few weeks
[10:56] <dholbach> Nafallo: :))))
[10:56] <sivang> ajmitch:  :)
[10:56] <ajmitch> *cough* ;)
[10:56] <\sh> dholbach: well...I don't have a mom actually...so I'll do it the normal hand-ish way
[10:57] <dholbach> me too
[10:57] <bddebian> MOM is a little questionable at times
[10:57] <bddebian> :-)
[10:57] <Lathiat> mom is always questionable!
[10:57] <sivang> \sh: is MOM freely avbailable ?
[10:57] <ogra> \sh, hand-*ish* ?
[10:57] <sivang> err,
[10:57] <dholbach> sivang: 2) we can't say that
[10:57] <Lathiat> sivang: a merge is taking the difference between debian and ubuntu packages
[10:57] <\sh> ogra: manually
[10:57] <Lathiat> sivang: and fixing it up
[10:57] <Nafallo> ajmitch: spec up a guide for us on the wiki? :-)
[10:57] <ajmitch> sivang: you have 3 versions.. the original version, ubuntu changes, and debian changes
[10:57] <Lathiat> sivang: where they conflict
[10:57] <dholbach> sivang: 1) getting new debian version in, applying our changes
[10:57] <ajmitch> Nafallo: sure...
[10:57] <ogra> \sh, like done at ish ?
[10:57] <\sh> sivang: I searched for it..and I only found a commercial package
[10:58] <sivang> \sh: hehe
[10:58] <\sh> ogra: *lol*
[10:58] <ajmitch> I could write a MoM clone if you really needed it :P
[10:58] <ogra> sivang, there is no use for MOM if the debian archives are broken
[10:58] <ajmitch> and put it on REVU
[10:58] <ajmitch> s/REVU/tiber/
[10:58] <dholbach> ok, do we all agree that merges are really important and we will all focus on that?
[10:58] <sivang> bddebian: maybe you can bug elmo for us to provide a local version of a MOM ? :-D
[10:58] <ajmitch> dholbach: YES!
[10:58] <Nafallo> yea, cause Keybuk would NEVER share the existing code? ;-)
[10:58] <\sh> dholbach: we have to...it's first task we should focus on
[10:58] <sivang> dholbach: yeah
[10:59] <ogra> dholbach++
[10:59] <ajmitch> Nafallo: I guess the code is fairly simple
[10:59] <sistpoty> dholbach++
[10:59] <sivang> dholbach: how are you producing lists of packages that needs merges?
[10:59] <dholbach> if i might add a suggestion: before uploading a package it might be prudent to examine the bugs for the package
[10:59] <ivoks> uh
[10:59] <dholbach> sivang: will be on bugzilla
[10:59] <ivoks> i'm late
[10:59] <Nafallo> ajmitch: still no need to discover the wheel again? :-)
[10:59] <ajmitch> the problem is usually getting the debian package that we forked from
[10:59] <dholbach> so if we can make a tiny change to fix a bug, do that with the merge
[10:59] <ogra> dholbach, bah, who cares for bugs...
[10:59] <ajmitch> since snapshot.debian.net lost a lot of data
[10:59] <dholbach> ogra: leave the channel, please ;)
[10:59] <ogra> :)
[10:59] <sivang> hehe
[10:59] <ajmitch> sivang: sid chroot
[11:00] <dholbach> AND:
[11:00] <sivang> ajmitch: cool
[11:00] <ogra> and ?
[11:00] <dholbach> we might have   apt-get source -t   by then
[11:00] <ajmitch> AND?
[11:00] <dholbach> ROCK
[11:00] <ajmitch> -t ?
[11:00] <sivang> ?
[11:00] <ogra> elaborate ?
[11:00] <dholbach> like in apt-get
[11:00] <dholbach> so you can have ubuntu and debian sources
[11:00] <ogra> ah
[11:00] <ajmitch> oh right
[11:00] <sivang> target release?
[11:00] <dholbach> and fetch the debian source just with apt-get
[11:00] <Nafallo> apt-get like in apt-get :-)
[11:00] <dholbach> sivang: mvo has it on his harddisk
[11:00] <sivang> dholbach: please xplain :)
[11:00] <ajmitch> we *still* have the problem of getting the original debian source
[11:00] <dholbach> ok
[11:01] <ivoks> -t targets release
[11:01] <\sh> mm...
[11:01] <ajmitch> 3-way merges need a base :)
[11:01] <dholbach> yes, so you do      apt-get source pornview -t sid
[11:01] <ogra> eek, that means i need to have debian soures in my sources.list ?
[11:01] <sivang> ivoks: yes, that what I saw with man apt-get /-t
[11:01] <ivoks> you can have couple of releases
[11:01] <ivoks> and pick whichever source you want
[11:01] <dholbach> ogra: no you don't, but i think it's a worthwhile feature
[11:01] <Nafallo> I usually do apt-cache madison && apt-get package=version anyway :-P
[11:01] <ajmitch> dholbach: I just switch into my sid chroot with its bind-mounted dirs ;)
[11:01] <dholbach> especially if you do apt-pinning
[11:01] <\sh> I think the problem is more, when I'm thinking on our transitions, that the packages we touched are not done by DDs by now
[11:01] <ogra> i dont
[11:01] <dholbach> do whatever you like
[11:01] <ivoks> or apt-get source sid/pornview
[11:01] <dholbach> i FANCY it
[11:01] <ajmitch> \sh: most are
[11:01] <ogra> i stay away from pinning as far as i can
[11:01] <ivoks> iirc
[11:01] <sivang> dholbach: how does it know where to fetch the package from if you don't provide it with the sources?
[11:02] <dholbach> sivang: you have to
[11:02] <dholbach> yes
[11:02] <dholbach> i just liked the idea
[11:02] <dholbach> however
[11:02] <dholbach> we agreed already ;)
[11:02] <ogra> OK, BACK ON TOPIC
[11:02] <dholbach> the last item on the agenda is:
[11:02] <sivang> dholbach: care to give me a session about that one afterwards? :)
[11:02] <ivoks> i tought meeting is at 22:00UTC :(
[11:02] <dholbach>  Clean up and reorganization of MOTU wiki pages. (JordanMantha)
[11:02] <dholbach> JordanMantha, are you there?
[11:02] <Loiosh> Ping
[11:02] <ajmitch> dholbach: we need more agenda items, this meeting was meant to be about direction & discussion before UBZ
[11:03] <siretart> err, sorry
[11:03] <sivang> I'm getting a cup of tea, be right back
[11:03] <siretart> what was the resolution to point3?
[11:03] <ajmitch> to get input from the MOTU community who won't be at UBZ
[11:03] <ajmitch> siretart: get working ;)
[11:03] <dholbach> siretart: we agreed to heavily focus on merging first (as soon as we have a merging list)
[11:03] <ogra> siretart, NO 1 prio is merges before UVF
[11:03] <ivoks> ajmitch: i'm off
[11:03] <bddebian> ajmitch: Why, you'll ignore it anyway.. ;-P
[11:03] <Lathiat> btw, quick question, are .desktop files fair game to go upstream to debian?
[11:03] <ajmitch> dholbach: I have a preliminary list
[11:03] <siretart> okay. thanks
[11:03] <ajmitch> bddebian: stop trolling
[11:03] <bddebian> Lathiat: They SHOULD be :-)
[11:03] <dholbach> ajmitch: do you want us to decide on them?
[11:03] <Lathiat> e.g. do debian care
[11:03] <LaserJock> I just was noticing that the MOUTU was sort of newbie unfriendly and since we got done with Breezy I was wondering what might be done with cleaning/improving the wiki
[11:04] <sivang> dholbach: can I help out in writing a script to produce the merges list? (I take it you're doing it in python)
[11:04] <dholbach> ajmitch: wouldn't it be better to collect the ideas on a wiki page?
[11:04] <Lathiat> (im writing up merge howto)
[11:04] <ajmitch> siretart: I've got one already
[11:04] <sivang> dholbach: maybe even a spec?
[11:04] <dholbach> sivang: it should be already done, the stuff was on bugzilla (just search for merging)
[11:04] <ajmitch> s/siretart/sivang/
[11:04] <ogra> *********** leave the stage to LaserJock please *************
[11:04] <ogra> its his topic
[11:04] <ajmitch> dholbach: I just wanted ideas raised
[11:04] <sivang> dholbach: ok
[11:04] <dholbach> LaserJock: please :)
[11:04] <TiMiDo> ok i want to do something
[11:04] <LaserJock> well, I am just a MOTU wannabe but I would like to help with wiki cleanup if I can
[11:05] <LaserJock> I just wanted input as to what would be good for you guys
[11:05] <ogra> LaserJock, what are your suggestions
[11:05] <dholbach> thank you very much for that at first :)
[11:05] <LaserJock> I guess Lathiat is taking care of some stuff
[11:05] <ogra> what should get changed... whats missing, what needs improvement ?
[11:05] <LaserJock> Well, we have 3 wiki pages for recruits
[11:05] <ogra> yes
[11:06] <ogra> sadly
[11:06] <bddebian> Aye
[11:06] <LaserJock> it should be only 1
[11:06] <\sh> 3?
[11:06] <ogra> wher does the third come from ?
[11:06] <LaserJock> maybe just 2 sorry
[11:06] <dholbach> what i wanted to take care of, for ages, is: having a "round trip" through all the pages, explaining what they are for, LaserJock, would that make sense?
[11:06] <ogra> i only know dholbachs and mine
[11:06] <LaserJock> the Todo page has lots of notes for MOTU but it is a little hard for newbies to figure out
[11:06] <sivang> LaserJock: do you find the current instructions for packaging a source from scratch okay?
[11:06] <\sh> but that's me ...forget about me
[11:07] <ogra> the recruitment pages can get merged or rewritten
[11:07] <LaserJock> well I think the packaging stuff could be improved
[11:07] <\sh> sivang: IT'S NOT OKAY ;)
[11:07] <dholbach> sivang: i think there is none
[11:07] <\sh> dholbach: there r two
[11:07] <\sh> dholbach: one was mine, the other one is kubuntu doc for cdbs stuff :(
[11:07] <Lathiat> lol
[11:07] <ogra> what about Unfrgivens developer docs ?
[11:07] <\sh> dholbach: mine is incomplete
[11:07] <LaserJock> we should make sure that everything follows MOTU policy and is current (replace Hoary with Dapper or something more general)
[11:07] <Lathiat> \sh: well, kubuntu doc has some kde/kubuntu specific stuff
[11:07] <ogra> can we put them up somewhere ?
[11:07] <Lathiat> \sh: e.g. what to add to cdbs for kde
[11:07] <ajmitch> ogra: yes, they are getting put up
[11:08] <ogra> great
[11:08] <\sh> Lathiat: which is wrong in my eyes
[11:08] <sivang> maybe we can get some of the more experienced folks in here to contribute on \sh's docs?
[11:08] <Lathiat> \sh: well, its needed
[11:08] <Lathiat> \sh: even if its a subset of a main page
[11:08] <sivang> make them more complete
[11:08] <sivang> ?
[11:08] <ogra> ajmitch, do they get in -updates ?
[11:08] <\sh> sivang: no..it's too difficult...I need to rewrite it
[11:08] <ogra> we have fine "intro developer docs"
[11:08] <\sh> Lathiat: yeah..for people who knows how debhelper works
[11:09] <dholbach> how about this: we go and categorize MOTUCategory pages and merge stuff that can be merged and write a general page, which should be part of /MOTU, that describes what is in each category?
[11:09] <ogra> they have been packaged but were to late for breezy
[11:09] <ajmitch> ogra: no way
[11:09] <ajmitch> ogra: they didn't pass NEW for breezy
[11:09] <LaserJock> What I would like to see is a self consistent, easily navigatible, and non-redundant set of wiki pages that has info for not only MOTUs but also MOTU wannabes
[11:09] <ajmitch> too late
[11:09] <ogra> i'd suggest we'd look over them and enhance if needed before we start new stuff
[11:09] <ogra> ajmitch, -updates ?
[11:09] <dholbach> isnt that, what i said?
[11:09] <ogra> ajmitch, i'll go begging at mdz
[11:09] <ajmitch> wiki pages cover *way* more than packaging
[11:10] <ajmitch> ogra: good luck, I think he'll say no
[11:10] <dholbach> fyi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryMOTU
[11:10] <ajmitch> the wiki has to cover all the bits about getting involved, what we do, what there is TODO
[11:10] <ogra> ajmitch, i'm used to... you didnt see my bleeding knees yet that edubuntu brought me :)
[11:10] <LaserJock> one other thing that is confusing (at least for me) is that the MOTUTodo doesn't seem prioritized
[11:10] <ajmitch> IntroDeveloperDocs is targetted specifically at new packagers creating a package
[11:10] <dholbach> LaserJock: ++
[11:10] <ajmitch> MOTUTodo needs wiped & redone
[11:11] <ogra> yes
[11:11] <dholbach> ok, how do we proceed, who wants to give LaserJock a hand?
[11:11] <siretart> there are many transition pages
[11:11] <ogra> we still have no RT
[11:11] <siretart> I'd propose to drop them
[11:11] <ajmitch> ogra: do we need RT? it can be setup easily on tiber
[11:11] <bddebian> RT?
[11:11] <ogra> couldnt MOTUTodo be replaces with a RT instance on the revu server ?
[11:11] <dholbach> launchpad! :)
[11:11] <siretart> request tracker?
[11:11] <bddebian> Ah
[11:11] <ajmitch> siretart: yes
[11:11] <ogra> yes
[11:11] <\sh> bddebian: RequestTracker a perl tool and a nice one
[11:11] <sistpoty> siretart++ go for ghc6-transition first :)
[11:11] <siretart> Reinhard Tartler? ;)
[11:12] <dholbach> rt sucks :)
[11:12] <ogra> dholbach, ??
[11:12] <siretart> for what would we need rt?
[11:12] <ajmitch> any one of the tiber admins can set it up if we agree
[11:12] <ogra> siretart, UniverseCandidates
[11:12] <\sh> ajmitch: u r one ;)
[11:12] <ogra> siretart, a morgue list
[11:12] <dholbach> an rt request for each package that needs love?
[11:12] <dholbach> just think about UniverseFTBFS
[11:12] <dholbach> but anyway
[11:12] <ogra> all the stuff we need lists for...
[11:12] <dholbach> this gets a bit offtopic
[11:13] <ogra> why ?
[11:13] <dholbach> we're here to organize our documents
[11:13] <siretart> wouldn't it make less work to create a python script installed on tiber than install rt?
[11:13] <dholbach> that's more important than the workflow, at least for newcomers
[11:13] <siretart> dholbach: this IS about organizing documents
[11:13] <ogra> dholbach, or drop them in favor of something better ;)
[11:13] <ajmitch> siretart: such as?
[11:13] <dholbach> documentation
[11:13] <dholbach> sorry
[11:13] <ajmitch> siretart: what python script would you want?
[11:13] <siretart> dholbach: we are talking about potential replacing wiki pages by other means
[11:13] <ajmitch> this is about replacing sections of the wiki with other, better tools
[11:13] <siretart> ajmitch: morgue list
[11:14] <ogra> dholbach, MOTUTodo is a internal workflow page.. but wannabes will find it and get confused
[11:14] <siretart> ajmitch: and UniverseCandidate have been mentioned
[11:14] <sistpoty> unmetdeps
[11:14] <ogra> yes
[11:14] <siretart> ajmitch: SyncCandidates would be another candidate
[11:14] <dholbach> ftbfs
[11:14] <ogra> ++
[11:14] <Nafallo> tiber == internal workflow wiki? :-)
[11:14] <ogra> Nafallo, nope
[11:14] <ogra> no wiki there
[11:14] <ajmitch> I was working on an unmet deps resolver to keep the list fresh
[11:14] <ogra> *tools*
[11:15] <dholbach> so we'll have an RT request for every package to fix?
[11:15] <siretart> ajmitch: that would really be great. it is quite high on my list..
[11:15] <Nafallo> ogra: not now... but it would be a possibility if MOTUTodo is such a confusing page, no? :-)
[11:15] <ajmitch> so that it could scan the universe/main package list & generate a list of packages that wouldn't install
[11:15] <ogra> dholbach, that would obsolete maolne :)
[11:15] <ajmitch> code is about 75% written :)
[11:15] <siretart> ajmitch: my hero! :)
[11:15] <sistpoty> ajmitch++
[11:15] <LaserJock> what about UniversePackageWithoutDesktopFile?
[11:15] <ogra> Nafallo,  dont think its a good ide to replace a wiki with a wiki
[11:16] <dholbach> so could we agree on testing RT for our purposes?
[11:16] <ogra> yup
[11:16] <Nafallo> ogra: in most cases no, but it could be in this one. anyway, I'm fine with MOTUTodo whereever it is :-)
[11:16] <siretart> *sigh*
[11:16] <dholbach> is it hard to set up?
[11:16] <ogra> and wipe all workflow stuff from the wiki eventually
[11:16] <dholbach> i don't have used it much
[11:17] <\sh> dholbach: it's a bit of "frickeling"
[11:17] <dholbach> so i'd like to see in action what we're talking about
[11:17] <\sh> with perl and some alias lists
[11:17] <ogra> Nafallo, lists on wikis are unusable if they reach a certain size
[11:17] <Lathiat> wouldnt like
[11:17] <Lathiat> bugs in launchpad
[11:17] <siretart> ogra: how can rt assist with that?
[11:17] <Lathiat> assigned to some meta-user for this kind of things
[11:17] <Lathiat> be better?
[11:17] <ogra> dholbach, you havent used it much ?
[11:17] <dholbach> Lathiat: we'd need mass-filing stuff
[11:17] <dholbach> ogra: no
[11:17] <Lathiat> launchpad has an email interface
[11:17] <Lathiat>  = easy mass filing
[11:17] <ajmitch> dholbach: malone email UI
[11:17] <ogra> dholbach, all internal canonical requests go over rt ...
[11:17] <dholbach> ok
[11:17] <dholbach> ogra: i know
[11:18] <Nafallo> ah well, nm :-)
[11:18] <dholbach> ogra: how often did you use it?
[11:18] <LaserJock> ok, so what do you guys want me to do?
[11:18] <ajmitch> we can mass-file, do nearly everything to bugs that you can through the web UI
[11:18] <ogra> 2 times :)
[11:18] <Lathiat> actually it would be better filed against a meta-package
[11:18] <dholbach> ogra: you see...
[11:18] <Lathiat> and then you can assign something to yourself
[11:18] <Lathiat> if you are working on it
[11:18] <dholbach> OKOKOK, what are our proposals?
[11:18] <\sh> I used it as support ticketing system for 3 ISPs
[11:18] <dholbach> we cannot agree on something that's not there
[11:18] <Lathiat> where meta-package could just be some 'product' or whatever concept launchpad has
[11:18] <dholbach> there's no transition, if we don't have something yet
[11:18] <\sh> Lathiat: team not product
[11:18] <ogra> first lets give LaserJock something in his hands
[11:18] <dholbach> i'd very much like to get back to documentation
[11:18] <ajmitch> ok, back to WIKI cleanup please :)
[11:19] <Lathiat> \sh: but can you file a bug *on* a team
[11:19] <ajmitch> Lathiat: shh :)
[11:19] <Lathiat> \sh: assigning is no good, then you cant assign it to yourself to work on
[11:19] <\sh> Lathiat: later
[11:19] <dholbach> because that's more important, even if not as appaling as tools to some of you :)
[11:19] <ajmitch> we agree that the wiki needs love
[11:19] <ajmitch> new contributors find the wiki confusing
[11:19] <ajmitch> LaserJock's point was that the wiki is useful for 'insiders' who already know their way around
[11:19] <ogra> i'd say lets first have a list which is workflow and which is doc... then clean up the doc pages
[11:20] <ajmitch> because that's who has written the wiki pages
[11:20] <dholbach> who would give LaserJock a hand at looking at CategoryMOTU and merge, where we can?
[11:20] <Nafallo> ogra++
[11:20] <sistpoty> anyone disagrees with removal of ghc6transition page? (it's done :)
[11:20] <Lathiat> workflow pages can probably be largely purged
[11:20] <dholbach> sistpoty: trash it
[11:20] <ajmitch> sistpoty: all part of the cleanup
[11:20] <ogra> sistpoty, why is it still there ?
[11:20] <sistpoty> ogra: been lazy with the wiki *g*
[11:20] <ogra> ;)
[11:21] <Nafallo> historic reasons? ;-)
[11:21] <ajmitch> all of us have been lazy with the wiki
[11:21] <ajmitch> except maybe dholbach ;)
[11:21] <sistpoty> hehe
[11:21] <bddebian> Speak for yourself :-)
[11:21] <Nafallo> so that we can look back in teen years and laugh? :-)
[11:21] <ajmitch> oh, and bddebian
[11:21] <dholbach> LaserJock: how would you proceed?
[11:21] <ajmitch> our MOTU God
[11:21] <bddebian> pfft
[11:22] <LaserJock> I think that we should have a wiki that has lists of wiki pages MOTU/Wannabes want to see
[11:22] <LaserJock> and ones we need to get rid of
[11:22] <dholbach> yeah
[11:22] <ogra> great
[11:22] <LaserJock> Then I can work on them
[11:23] <LaserJock> I am willing to do work, I'm just want to make sure I don't mess up something important
[11:23] <dholbach> LaserJock: you can always ask in the channel
[11:23] <ogra> LaserJock, its a wiki
[11:23] <dholbach> and i'm quite happy you take that role
[11:23] <Lathiat> if you break it, you can unbreak it, i think
[11:23] <Lathiat> dholbach++
[11:23] <ogra> it has version control as long as hno73 doent mess it up ;)
[11:23] <Loiosh> Heheh, yes
[11:23] <siretart> perhaps we can regroup all workflow pages under MOTU/Workflow/<TOPIC>?
[11:23] <ajmitch> we can't leave it up to LaserJock alone
[11:23] <Loiosh> You can undo changes.
[11:23] <dholbach> siretart: excellent idea
[11:24] <Lathiat> laserjock and whip other people
[11:24] <dholbach> i wanted to do that too
[11:24] <Loiosh> wiki calls it a 'revert'
[11:24] <dholbach> a directory structure
[11:24] <dholbach> i gues that'd help
[11:24] <siretart> same for MOTU/Transition/<TOPIC>
[11:24] <dholbach> MOTU/Doc
[11:24] <dholbach> MOTU/Wannabe
[11:24] <ogra> yeah
[11:24] <dholbach> MOTU/Process
[11:24] <\sh> well...it would be nice to see some real documentation work for motu pages...finally I'll ping some of the german wiki guys and ask for help
[11:24] <Nafallo> MOTU/Teams :-)
[11:25] <ogra> heh
[11:25] <dholbach> yeah
[11:25] <ajmitch> especially as MOTU is seen as the entry point for ubuntu development
[11:25] <dholbach> woohoo
[11:25] <dholbach> ajmitch: ++
[11:25] <ajmitch> so we need to make it as appealing as possible :)
[11:25] <dholbach> it's a shame in which state some pages are
[11:25] <ajmitch> :)
[11:25] <Nafallo> lot's of them talk about hoary and warty still ;-)
[11:25] <ajmitch> yep
[11:25] <Lathiat> unfortunately the whole wiki is generally a mess
[11:25] <dholbach> ok... LaserJock is that cool for you?
[11:26] <Lathiat> but if we want to get anywhere we will need to focus on MOTU stuff of course :)
[11:26] <ajmitch> and breezy is old news now ;)
[11:26] <LaserJock> dholbach: sounds good to me
[11:26] <dholbach> LaserJock: excellent
[11:26] <dholbach> ajmitch: do you still want to collect items for ubz?
[11:26] <dholbach> ajmitch: or can we agree to announce the wiki page here?
[11:26] <LaserJock> I think I will make an organizational wikipage and link to it on the MOTU page so you guys can add/remove stuff you want, OK?
[11:27] <ogra> dholbach, announce the wiki page ?
[11:27] <dholbach> LaserJock: excellent, and thanks again
[11:27] <ajmitch> dholbach: as UBZ is Real Soon Now, I'd like to hear a few minutes of ideas
[11:27] <ajmitch> and put them on the wiki page
[11:27] <dholbach> ogra: for IdeasForMOTUUBZ
[11:27] <dholbach> ok
[11:27] <Lathiat> for those that cant attend :(
[11:27] <dholbach> ajmitch: go ahead
[11:27] <ajmitch> since some discussion will help to get it going
[11:27] <Lathiat> it woudl be nice to get a drawup of new interaction in dapper
[11:27] <Lathiat> like with launchpad etc
[11:27] <ogra> dholbach, we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs, why not add it there ?
[11:28] <dholbach> ogra: it's ajmitch's agenda item
[11:28] <siretart> that page is quite busy/crouded
[11:28] <ivoks> koke: ping UBZ :)
[11:28] <\sh> first idea: Every MOTU gets a lifetime support of Aspirin
[11:28] <ajmitch> Lathiat: MOTULaunchpadPackages? ;)
[11:28] <koke> ivoks: thx
[11:28] <Lathiat> ajmitch: heh
[11:28] <Lathiat> ok
[11:28] <ajmitch> s/Packages/Processes/
[11:28] <ajmitch> \sh: ++++
[11:28] <ajmitch> ;)
[11:28] <ogra> ajmitch, why not use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs ?
[11:28] <ajmitch> ogra: sure
[11:29] <\sh> ajmitch: *g*
[11:29] <ajmitch> as we know, dapper is going to be supported for 3/5 years
[11:29] <ajmitch> what can we really focus on to make it rock?
[11:29] <Lathiat> i think first and foremost should be cleaning things up
[11:29] <Lathiat> gettin gmerges out of the way
[11:29] <ajmitch> first up is how to get new people involved..
[11:29] <Lathiat> trying to fix as many leftover unmet deps as possible
[11:29] <ajmitch> and doing the merge & bug work
[11:29] <Lathiat> getting rid of as many merges as possible / simplifying them
[11:30] <Lathiat> and try do them ASAP, instead of last-week rush
[11:30] <koke> I'd like to work with someone else in the Ruby team
[11:30] <Nafallo> Lathiat++
[11:30] <Lathiat> koke: we have a ruby team
[11:30] <ivoks> stop including new packages
[11:30] <ajmitch> Lathiat: that was on the agenda ;)
[11:30] <Lathiat> koke: we havent really done much yet
[11:30] <ivoks> and only fix remaning
[11:30] <ogra> Lathiat, we wont have a choice in dapper, th relese schedule will fully apply to universe
[11:30] <koke> I know, but I'm not sure if someone from the team will be at UBZ
[11:30] <Nafallo> \sh: will we have time with everything? :-P
[11:30] <Lathiat> ogra: "last week before UVF rush"
[11:30] <Lathiat> ogra: etc
[11:30] <ogra> so merges have to be done at a certain date
[11:30] <ajmitch> ivoks: that's an option
[11:31] <ajmitch> Lathiat: so start on merges asap
[11:31] <\sh> Nafallo: I don't think that our spec will be a dapper "goal"...so it's deferred by default ;)
[11:31] <ivoks> ajmitch: with new i'm thinking on REVU :) not new versions
[11:31] <Lathiat> ajmitch: when merges happen! ;)
[11:31] <Nafallo> \sh: baah :-P
[11:31] <ogra> but that will scare people away... new people want to include new stuff... dholbach and i had this discussion plenty of times
[11:31] <bddebian> Yeah but some merges come back to "just syncing Debian" ;-P
[11:31] <ajmitch> ivoks: I think that we need to get new packages to attract new developers
[11:32] <ajmitch> at least up until UVF
[11:32] <\sh> as I said, at sometime we have to split the strength of the team...
[11:32] <ajmitch> after that we have to say no
[11:32] <ivoks> ajmitch: but definitive no
[11:32] <ajmitch> or no, with exceptions ;)
[11:32] <ivoks> ajmitch: no "just this one"
[11:32] <ajmitch> unlike the non-UVF that we had with breezy
[11:32] <ogra> yup
[11:32] <ivoks> yeah...
[11:32] <ajmitch> I think it can still be worth getting packages in after UVF, if they're well done
[11:33] <ivoks> uploads in last hour
[11:33] <ogra> ajmitch, depends...
[11:33] <ajmitch> ogra: sure
[11:33] <ivoks> one more thing
[11:33] <dholbach> if i see it correctly, the release process for dapper for main isnt even clear yet
[11:33] <ivoks> when dapper+1 opens
[11:33] <ogra> ajmitch, if we need mdz/Kamion approval at least *i* wont bother them with it
[11:33] <ajmitch> ogra: I'm just arguing that a blanket NO can be detrimental :)
[11:33] <ivoks> we have to do more backports than now...
[11:34] <\sh> ivoks: backports are a special topic
[11:34] <ogra> ivoks, thats Mez's job
[11:34] <ogra> we dont have to care..
[11:34] <ivoks> :)
[11:34] <\sh> ivoks: we need all motus to help us for merges and other things...where merges*1000 prio
[11:34] <ivoks> ok
[11:34] <ajmitch> ogra: yes, I don't think mdz & kamion will take on the universe burden as well
[11:34] <ogra> but we should get jdong into motu finally
[11:34] <ogra> ajmitch, exactly
[11:34] <ajmitch> ogra: perhaps you'll end up being the MOTU in charge of approvals ;)
[11:34] <ajmitch> or dholbach
[11:34] <Loiosh> Hahaha
[11:34] <bddebian> heh
[11:34] <\sh> ivoks: because for breezy we were only a few
[11:34] <ogra> ajmitch, surely not... else edubuntu will suffer
[11:35] <ogra> Loiosh, i cant
[11:35] <ajmitch> ogra: ok, some other community member like \sh
[11:35] <ogra> yup, good suggestion :)
[11:35] <Loiosh> Heh
[11:35] <\sh> what?
[11:35] <Lathiat> if (member != ogra) echo good suggestion
[11:35] <\sh> ajmitch: what u want from me?
[11:35] <ivoks> \sh: you'll do all the work :)
[11:35] <Nafallo> probably ogra AND dholbach :-)
[11:35] <dholbach> erm....
[11:36] <dholbach> can't we make a list of topics, briefly? :)
[11:36] <ajmitch> LaserJock: no, I'm not going to volunteer myself, I'd have to be nominated by others :)
[11:36] <ajmitch> dholbach: please :)
[11:36] <ogra> dholbach, UVF exception approvals...
[11:36] <ajmitch> this is going OT again ;)
[11:36] <ogra> yes
[11:36] <dholbach> ogra: i'm not taking notes :)
[11:36] <Lathiat> we were ever on topic? ;)
[11:36] <ogra> dholbach, me neither
[11:36] <dholbach> i will have a presentation to prepare
[11:37] <ivoks> i thik exception should be stuff like ipod support etc
[11:37] <dholbach> so i'd like to wrap up, if we can't agree on how to handle pre-ubz-business
[11:37] <Nafallo> what IS the topic? :-)
[11:37] <ivoks> since apple has tenedency to change stuff periodicly
[11:37] <ajmitch> Nafallo: UBZ suggestions
[11:37] <ajmitch> I was asking for people to (briefly) suggest topics for UBZ, that we'll put on the wiki
[11:38] <ajmitch> the briefly part got lost somewhere under my desk
[11:38] <Nafallo> and how many do we have? :-)
[11:38] <ivoks> :)
[11:38] <ajmitch> Nafallo: about 1/2
[11:38] <Nafallo> hmm, that must be \sh's aspirin then...
[11:39] <dholbach> ok. shall we agree on a wiki page for "brief ideas" and agree on a time and date for next meeting?
[11:39] <Loiosh> Nominate a member to be considered for post-UVF approval?
[11:39] <Nafallo> well, I already now what I'm going to do in dapper so... ;-)
[11:39] <ajmitch> dholbach: yes
[11:39] <ogra> Loiosh, that should be absolute exceptions...
[11:39] <ajmitch> next meeting will be during or after UBZ
[11:39] <dholbach> ok, suggestions?
[11:39] <Lathiat> oh
[11:39] <sivang> dholbach: what is the presentation about?
[11:39] <Lathiat> quick Q
[11:39] <Loiosh> s/approval/absolute exceptions/g
[11:39] <Lathiat> can we irc mirror the ubz meeting? :)
[11:40] <dholbach> sivang: berlinux, ubuntu community
[11:40] <Nafallo> dholbach: make clones of mdz and Kamion.
[11:40] <ogra> Lathiat, that was the plan iirc
[11:40] <Lathiat> or does anyone have a spare few grand lying around to send me? ;p
[11:40] <ajmitch> Lathiat: if needed, but we'll have quite a few BOFs
[11:40] <\sh> Lathiat: if there is a motu bof or meeting we will pushit via irc, i think
[11:40] <Nafallo> dholbach: atleast there role for main should be someone in Universe :-)
[11:40] <ajmitch> sorry, I blew my last bit of cash to send myself ;)
[11:40] <ivoks> ogra: that would be nice, since some of us can't attend ubz
[11:40] <\sh> Nafallo: choose one of 4 ... dholbach , ogra, ajmitch , \sh
[11:40] <ogra> ivoks, yes
[11:40] <sivang> dholbach: ah, intersting, UBZ spec?
[11:41] <Nafallo> \sh: yes, those sounds fine :-)
[11:41] <\sh> Nafallo: exclude me ;)
[11:41] <Nafallo> \sh: noway dude! ;-)
[11:41] <\sh> Nafallo: I'm not compatible with TB ;)
[11:41] <ivoks> ogra: just conclusions would be enough
[11:41] <ajmitch> \sh: and of those, ogra & dholbach & \sh & ajmitch are very busy ;)
[11:41] <ogra> \sh, hewy, you only have KDE to care for, we others have important tasks :)
[11:41] <Nafallo> ajmitch: but mdz and Kamion isn't? ;-)
[11:41] <dholbach> ok, what about the name for the wiki page for the suggestions?
[11:41] <\sh> ogra: *lol*
[11:41] <dholbach> and what about the time and date for next meeting?
[11:42] <ogra> dholbach, at UBZ ?
[11:42] <ogra> i think we said that lats time
[11:42] <\sh> ogra: I think I had more != KDE uploads to main then expected
[11:42] <ivoks> ogra: yes!
[11:42] <ivoks> at ubz!
[11:42] <siretart> how about some means of enforcing approval?
[11:42] <dholbach> ok, time and date?
[11:42] <ajmitch> ogra: yes, at beer o'clock in 2 weeks? :)
[11:42] <ajmitch> siretart: a big stick?
[11:42] <ogra> dholbach, probably dynamically or do *you* know the schedule yet ?
[11:42] <ivoks> not in the end of ubz
[11:43] <dholbach> no, that's why i ask
[11:43] <Nafallo> dholbach: so... the MOTU core team as exception approvers for Universe please :-)
[11:43] <dholbach> you seemed to know :)
[11:43] <ajmitch> siretart: enforcing approval is hard, we can't upload to a frozen queue that someone can moderate
[11:43] <ogra> we should announce a date if we are there and know the schedule
[11:43] <ajmitch> siretart: not unless we do some fast talking with mdz & kamion
[11:43] <dholbach> ok
[11:43] <ajmitch> ogra: good idea
[11:43] <ivoks> dholbach ogra somewhere in the middle, so rest of us can make some suggestions
[11:43] <siretart> ajmitch: perhaps this is something for your ubz list, then
[11:43] <Nafallo> ajmitch: do that talking with them on UBZ then?
[11:43] <ogra> so between oct 26th and nov 7th
[11:43] <ajmitch> siretart: ok
[11:44] <\sh> Novembre 1st?
[11:44] <ivoks> :<
[11:44] <sivang> ogra: not on 7th, I'm leaving on the 6th :-/
[11:44] <\sh> ogra: 6th
[11:44] <siretart> but the suggestions with the big stick seems fine to me
[11:44] <ajmitch> ogra: oct 26th? that's far too early
[11:44] <\sh> ogra: siretart and I are leaving on the 6th
[11:44] <ogra> \sh, do *you* know what we'll have ion schedule on Nov 1st ?
[11:44] <ajmitch> \sh: msot people check out about the 6th
[11:44] <dholbach> let's announce it on the mailing list
[11:44] <dholbach> or on the irc topic
[11:44] <sivang> ogra: my birthday ? :-)
[11:44] <\sh> ogra: well...the night dude ;)
[11:44] <sistpoty> dholbach++
[11:44] <dholbach> we're not getting somewhere now :)
[11:44] <Loiosh> 1st is my birthday
[11:45] <ajmitch> dholbach: good idea
[11:45] <ivoks> dholbach: :)
[11:45] <\sh> dholbach: of course...to bed ;)
[11:45] <dholbach> and i'm pretty tired and have to get on with work :)
[11:45] <ajmitch> dholbach: I *really* have to get off to work & my real-life job
[11:45] <sistpoty> dholbach: /me prefers mailing list ;)
[11:45] <dholbach> ajmitch: me too
[11:45] <ajmitch> it's nearly 11AM here, I'm about 2 hours late
[11:45] <ogra> ok, we'll put it in the topic of -motu
[11:45] <dholbach> sistpoty: we can do both
[11:45] <ogra> once we know the schadule
[11:45] <ivoks> dbboth
[11:45] <ivoks> dholbach: both
[11:45] <dholbach> ok
[11:45] <sistpoty> yeehaa... i almost never look at the topic :(
[11:45] <ivoks> wrap it up
[11:46] <dholbach> ok, thanks everybody for coming
[11:46] <dholbach> have a nice day
[11:46] <ivoks> night
[11:46] <Lathiat> thank you all for coming DONT FORGET UBUNTU BUG DAY
[11:46] <ogra> sistpoty, you'll do then
[11:46] <ivoks> too
[11:46] <ajmitch> ok :)
[11:46] <ivoks> :)
[11:46] <ajmitch> Lathiat: what day? ;)
[11:46] <sistpoty> ogra: I'm not on UBZ ;)
[11:46] <sivang> Lathiat: when?
[11:46] <Nafallo> Lathiat: Ubuntu WHAT? ;-)
[11:46] <dholbach> now/tomorrow
[11:46] <Lathiat> sivang: #ubuntu-bugs, now!
[11:46] <ogra> sistpoty, thats why you'll look at the topic then :)
[11:46] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
[11:46] <sistpoty> ogra: or do you mean looking at the topic *g*
[11:46] <ivoks> bye
[11:46] <sistpoty> hehe
[11:46] <dholbach> bye
[11:46] <ajmitch> ok, who wants to write up the meeting summary this week?
[11:46] <Lathiat> anyone who doesn't give at least 20 bugs attention gets stared at evilly
[11:47] <ogra> does someone feel eager to write up the minutes ?
[11:47] <ajmitch> ogra: I can if you want
[11:47] <ogra> would be nice...
[11:47] <bddebian> I can't unfortunately, I've been too distracted with RL work. :-(
[11:47] <ogra> but take as much time as you need :)
[11:47] <dholbach> Lathiat: read the wiki page :)
[11:47] <ajmitch> ogra: will look at it in weekend then
[11:47] <dholbach> Lathiat: you're taking the wrong approach
[11:47] <ogra> ajmitch, take your time
[11:47] <dholbach> ok guys... see you
[11:47] <Lathiat> dholbach: heh
[11:47] <ajmitch> bye dholbach
[11:47] <siretart> grrr. disconnect without noticing :/
[11:47] <sistpoty> gn8 dholbach
[11:48] <ajmitch> ogra: long weekend for me :)
[11:48] <ogra> ok, meeting closed :)
[11:48] <ajmitch> yay
[11:48] <ogra> thanks all for attending
[11:48] <\sh> well...
[11:48] <Lathiat> LOL
[11:48] <Lathiat> hug day!
[11:48] <siretart> hrhr
[11:48] <Lathiat> i like the evil stares option personally
[11:48] <siretart> bye folks
[11:49] <\sh> 26th is my last day of RL stress work :(
[11:49] <sivang> \sh: I had time like this 2 weeks ago, was icky :-/
[11:49] <sistpoty> bye siretart
[11:49] <sivang> night sistpoty
[11:49] <sivang> night siretart
[11:49] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[11:49] <\sh> sivang: well...we're preparing for a new channel line up for two german counties
[11:49] <Loiosh> Wow
[11:49] <\sh> sivang: digital television :(
[11:50] <\sh> sivang: and our german pay tv company named premiere wants to change to hdtv as well during these days...
[11:50] <\sh> it's a mess
[11:50] <sivang> bah, too much transitions eg?
[11:51] <\sh> sivang: yeah...cxx trans + ftbfs in 3 days
[11:51] <\sh> and a bunch of meetings with all those people who don't have a clue..but wants to have a say
[11:52] <Loiosh> Heh
[11:52] <\sh> shit...this channel is logged...but I never mentioned ISH ,->
[11:52] <bddebian> :-)
[11:53] <\sh> ogra: help...I'm playing with my career
[11:54] <ogra> \sh, good :)
[11:55] <\sh> hmm..
[11:55] <sivang> \sh: lol
[11:55] <\sh> ogra: u didn't push klaus onto my back, to give me good piece of advises to leave the company? ,-)
[11:55] <\sh> pieces of advise even
[11:56] <sivang> \sh: this is SO much known , for me as well :-/
[11:57] <ogra> \sh, not yet... thats still to come... my last resort if you want :)
[12:03] <\sh> ogra: he starts already since I know that he is leaving...
[12:03] <\sh> anyways...