Friday, October 2, 2015

Keeping score with Talvorian Dex

Talvorian Dex wrote a nice post where he ganked a 2 days old newbie who didn't get the memo: After this heroic deed he got the CODE standard "I quit this game" message. He attributed it not to the obvious "I'm lost, I have no clue and I'm even killed and this is frustrating" but to entitlement. Dex wrote "[EVE is] a game that is a Nietzschean's dream - throwing yourself into the fire to come out stronger on the other side - amid a modern society steeped in participation trophies, children's sports that don't keep score, and the delusion that everyone is a unique little snowflake that deserves to be given their heart's desire simply because their parents had a few spare moments to kill one evening." and then went to write a big letter to the noob full of useless advice (the good advice would be "stay in highsec unless you want to PvP").

Dear Dex, let's not play "children's sports that don't keep score"! - I checked his killboard for the last month. It's only a page long. I clicked all the kills and manually calculated de-inflation, for example this 547M Tengu kill has 6.8% contribution from Talvorian Dex, so that's 37.2M kill for him, the rest is for his fleetmates. He had 537.5M total de-inflated kills in September. How about the losses? Ouch! Since all the ships after the carrier died in the same minute, I'd guess he ejected them from that no-self-rep-cap-stable carrier to decrease loss value, not knowing that they will be listed on the killboard when killed. Together with other September losses they are 4626M ISK, providing a wonderful 10% ISK ratio! Was it just an unlucky month? I dug up the 2014 data and checked him: 5029M contribution based damage, 4345M losses, 53.6% ISK ratio. However if we don't de-inflate but give him every kill he got onto, that's 130754M, providing 96.8% ratio, probably the score he keeps.

Dear Talvorian Dex, I'm happy that you are no longer a mindless drone of the Evil. I'm happier that you still were when you lost that carrier with all those ships in it. I'm even happier that you condemn the "everyone is a unique little snowflake that deserves to be given their heart's desire" thinking. I could only be happier if you'd live up to your standards, keep score of your own performance and face stronger adversaries than 2 days old noobs in T1 frigs with civilian modules. Because currently you are just a big hypocrite. Almost as big as the NC. "elite" guys! baltec1 said...

How is he a hypocrite? Sounds to me like Talvorian Dax is practising what he's preaching and doesn't give a damn about his k/d record so long as he is having fun.

02 October, 2015 06:21 NuTroll said...

Yeah its fun all right, like how Healy spikes the ball against the disabled in Something about Mary.

More of that undeserving superiority complex of eve players, didn't even consider that his scan skills sucked and he just needed "better gear" or how hes so much better than all those "other noobs".

Didn't even consider that a t3 vs a t1 put him at a win advantage against a pilot with similar sp/skill, he got "instantly outraged" that a 2d old noob got instantly outraged for losing half of his stuff (probably).

All of which means one thing, the noob he is describing in the article is actually himself.

I'm not saying the noob shouldn't have gotten ganked, he should have. I'm saying that his critique of the noob's behavior is a hamster wheel form of gloating without admitting that it is such, and Gevlon is rightly calling him (and by extension a good part of the eve player base) out on it.

02 October, 2015 07:32 I think you need to actually read his post before commenting, I don't think he was gloating at all merely highlighting the immature idiocy that is a large percentage of the Eve player base.

Also if you read his blog regularly you would know that he looks for and enjoys most a certain type of fight i.e. the ones where player skill (not SP) makes the difference. I disagree with a lot of his whining about the state of Null Sec but I think the implication of what's written here is rubbish.

Not everyone measures their eve game time in k/d ratio or isk made etc.

02 October, 2015 10:03 Yes, he talks about that. And then - like most EVE players - go gank some noobs and act like his killboard wouldn't be shit.

02 October, 2015 10:36 Ive only read this post from him, but from this he doesnt seem to be pro killboard.

I think he is furious, because EVE will never have a large playerbase, becuase we chase away these noobs who get disheartened by their first loss. And these noobs are the majority of the video game culture.

"The ironic part is that if he'd have reached out to me asking how I found him and what he could do differently, I'd have reimbursed his full loss and started a conversation with him."

Why does he have to reach out, for you to offer help? I would have linked him some Guides, and suggested him to join EVE UNI, and reimburse that ridiculous 3M for his loss after I saw his birth date. I would have convoed him instead of mail.

Yes there is a problem with "entitled" players, but the bigger problem is that the players who recognize this, instead of offering a hand and help to learn and adapt to the new play style of EVE, makes a ranting blog and send a semi-helpful letter.

Either you chase off entitled spoiled brats, or you make a decent EVE player from him. I would prefer the latter. Even Gevlon is on the side to educating (I think?):

02 October, 2015 12:18 Why is he a hypocrite? Did you read and understand what he wrote? I doubt it.

As noted many times, ISK ratio is a measure of gank skill. I would think someone who is constantly looking to challenge themselves is going to have a bad ISK ratio because they are not just looking for easy ganks, but tough fights where the outcome is uncertain, so they will lose quite often.

The fact that you are trying to use a standard (ISK ratio) that he doesn't use does not make him a hypocrite.

02 October, 2015 13:22 @Jim L: care to enlighten us about the proper "true skill meter"?

02 October, 2015 13:35 If you want to meassure a war between two entities, ISK is a good meassurement.

If you want to meassure PvP fight skill: sit two players in the same ship and watch them duel.

I never looked into Zaqq's ISK ratio, but from this video:
I don't think he has a good one. But I would consider him a good PvP-er. He is out there losing ships after ships, and sometimes, just sometimes, he gets into a fight he can win, and make a video about it. But most of the time he will be outnumbered and gunned down. He does not care about that, he is looking for the 'good fight'. His passion is looking for this and make a video about it, ISK ratio is irrelevant in his case. I think if you put this guy into fair battles he would win a lot. But EVE is not about fair battles.

MoA should not look for good fights. Any entity which is competing with another should be ISK efficient. Individuals dont have to be. A Red Frog Freight character who gets ganked will have an awfull zkillboard, but I would not meassure a freighter with zkillboard.

02 October, 2015 14:08 @sorrowofeve: that's all nice, but can't be done. I mean I can't possibly pair every players and sit into the same ship. We have to work with what we have. A measuring system is never perfect. Also a freighter pilot IS pretty bad in PvP. He just don't care about his PvP results.

02 October, 2015 14:38 Where did I ever claim there is one?

I was just pointing out your misuse of ISK ratio. I am willing to bet that your ganking character has a better ratio than the winner of the recent tournament. Obviously ISK ratio is terrible for identifying PvP skill. It is an excellent meter for measurung skills at identifying unfair fights though.

02 October, 2015 18:44 No one is claiming that the measuring system has to be perfect. However you haven't even shown that it is better than a random number generator to identify PvP skill.

02 October, 2015 18:48 Identifying unfair fights = PvP skills.

02 October, 2015 21:10 You are then using a different definition than everyone else.

Redefining words is the the domain of the propagandist.

03 October, 2015 00:48 Every winner is stronger than a loser.
A strong fighting a weak is unfair.

There is no such thing as fair fight.

03 October, 2015 07:03 Talvorian Dax has been called out time and time again by those who enjoy the game and would like to see more people embrace noobs, over causing them to ragequit. Talvorian Dax has a problem with seeing EVERYTHING, in-game and IRL as conflict that has to be acted on with a soldiers vigilance, never once understanding balance is a much better way to interact with people.

In this article, as in so many prior to it, Talvorian Dax has proved that he is the "entitled player", the one who cannot grow, even when there are opportunities and encouragement to grow. As so many of us have done in the past in nullsec, when we make the mistake of killing a noob, we do not belittle them, we reimburse them and ASK what they think the game is about ... we ASK what they expect from the game (and what to expect if they end up in null/low)... we ASK if they would like to be pointed to group who help them learn the game.

The key here is we do not TELL them anything, we encourage them to learn about the game and give them new tools to work with, not a stick to beat them around the head and shoulder area to prove we are better than them. We still get a kill, we still get proof we are PvPers, but at the same time, we work towards improving the game and the people who play it.

04 October, 2015 23:24 In the interest of accuracy, allow me to summarize a few posts to provide the needed background. My Archon loss happened when I made stupid mistake while moving my stuff when changing corps... I hit the F key for my cyno instead of my cloak (they were right next to each other). The losses associated with it were all fitted ships I was carrying when I popped. After my carrier died, Snuff destroyed each of them in sequence. When I posted about it, all of the blame was on me, and I congratulated Snuff on reacting so well.

My number of kills on Talvorian the past few months are low. Part of the reason is the corp switch. The rest is from me fighting on my FW alt. All of those losses are solo or small gang. No, I'm not telling you who, but I've been flying a lot of Merlins, Tristans, and Crucifiers. You can choose to believe this or not.

Also a point of clarification... I've never once said I'm a great PvPer, or claimed to be better than anyone else at the mechanics of it. Because a thing is worth doing doesn't mean you can do it well. I'm definitely a "try-hard", and I have a long way to go. The point, though, is that I try, and I reflect on how I fly to improve.

I can see, though, how a person so focused on results would see that as a negative. If I'm losing ships while having fun and learning, then that's good enough for me.

To the anonymous poster ahead of me, please read through the article again for clarity. My default action after a fight is to share some tips I've learned, compliment them on how they flew, or ask about their fit. With this pilot, it wasn't the skill at interacting with the game that offended me, but the human reaction of meeting resistance and succumbing to it.

I piss many people off with what I write. That's deliberate. I want you to feel frustrated and uncomfortable; it's in the space of frustration and discomfort where change slips in. My blog has an agenda: to encourage people to move into PvP with an attitude of resilience and adaptation. If you aren't interested in PvP and view it as an interruption of your game, then my blog isn't for you. And maybe, it's not for you NOW, but as you start to burn out from paying $15 a month to interact with a single-player online game, maybe eventually you'll decide to branch out.

The point of my post about that player reaction is, "Reacting to adversity with a tantrum doesn't benefit you; in fact, it blinds you to the fact that you can control your flying and improve." Whether you disagree with my "Eve-ethos" or not, does that make that statement any less valid?

18 October, 2015 20:07 sorrowofeve, you raise a good question, so allow me to give an answer. Why should we wait for someone to reach out to offer help? Simple. Because I respect people enough to expect each of us to be responsible for ourselves first. Learning starts with being receptive to learning. Him reaching out to me to throw a tantrum is not a request for more information. Nonetheless, I even provided some tips on surviving despite his reaction. But it's not okay to throw tantrums, and you don't reward them with acquiescence. Anyone who has a toddler can tell you that; this isn't rocket science.

I'm not furious that Eve won't have a large player base. I am passionate in my belief that more and more people expect to be given things, and feel they "deserve" them by virtue of their existence. In Eve, this translates to, "I deserve to be left in peace regardless of what I'm doing in game". This is a societal issue, not an Eve issue.

In this case, he made it my deal by trying to guilt me or make me feel bad for playing the game the way I believe it to be paid. He has the right to try that. And I have the right to call him on it.
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