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  1. #81
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Member Since
    Mar 2006

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
    Are you being sarcastic? .
    ever been to OZ? you don't know what you're missing

  2. #82
    Second Lieutenant
    Member Since
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by morrismike View Post
    ever been to OZ? you don't know what you're missing
    Miranda Kerr...

  3. #83
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
    Member Since
    Nov 2007
    My Throne in Heaven

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    No, the entire question is based on whether or not there are enough people to create a stable gene pool.
    but that question is predecessed by the question "do the individuals have a sufficient genetic diversity"

    given that they succeeded, it's likely that the Destiny crew has sufficient genetic diversity among themselves to get to a point where they can dampen the effects. like in IVF. which given their technological background, shouldn't take THAT long to develop.

    i'd estimate about 4 generations to get their resource technology up to speed and after that, they can get to refining.

    the most crucial things are setting up mines (not that hard, on an uninhabited planet it would lie on the surface), and setting up proper furnaces. 2000 years ago they couldn't even smelt iron on earth, Bronze was the standard. iron is superior to that.

    the principle of advanced ore smelting isn't that advanced either, it just took damn long for humans to figure it out. the Destiny crew holds a massive repository of immensely valuable information that would speed up advancement in many ways.

    and it has NOTHING to do with how shields work or how they repair the FTL drive. simply the concepts themselves are enough. tell them how hygiene works and disease will never get as bad as things like the plague. if we had vaccination 2000 years ago, things would look different.

    there are so many aspects that they never knew or even could fathom back then that the Destiny crew can pass on to their children and create advancement. at the very least, Eli would've released some math on the subject and told their children to figure out the solution, while the Crew ensured they would quickly develop such tech.

  4. #84
    First Lieutenant
    Member Since
    Dec 2011

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by carmencatalina View Post
    Finally, a topic on which I can speak intelligently!

    I'm a population geneticist, this is what I'm actually teaching this semester.

    As several people have pointed out, one of the questions is the relative proportions of males and females. Biologists use a term called "effective population size" to measure how much genetic diversity a population will likely maintain over time.

    For a population that has Nm males and Nf females (where Nm and Nf are integers representing the actual number of males and females), the effective population size is:

    Ne = 4*Nm*Nf/(Nm + Nf)

    So let's say that there are 20 women and 40 men aboard the Destiny.

    The effective population size is only: 4(20)(40)/(20+40) = 3200/60 = 53.33

    This is less than the actual population size of 60, because each new person receives 1/2 of his/her genes from a female and half from a male - the smaller number of females forms its own "bottleneck".

    This assumes everyone is equally likely to reproduce - the effective population size will be smaller if there are some individuals that reproduce more than others.

    But let's take an effective population size of about 50 as our estimate. Is that big enough to found a human population for the long term?

    It is if the founding population is genetically diverse enough, so that it is unlikely that any two people are carrying the same recessive deleterious mutations. We all have some recessive deleterious mutations - most of the time, the person with whom we reproduce has different ones, and then our offspring don't get 2 copies of a deleterious gene at the same locus (gene). That's why many (but not all) organisms avoid close inbreeding.

    The current theory of human population expansion out of Africa poses multiple small groups founding population in Europe and Asia. It is certainly likely that some of these groups had less than 100 breeding individuals. Could they have persisted without later influxes of people and genes from other groups?

    I think the answer is "maybe". Certainly, we have seen populations of other mammals survive bottlenecks much more severe than 50 breeding individuals.
    but I thought the entire human population was descended from only a few tens of thousands of Africans, according to your calculation (assuming I've understood it) there shouldn't even be 100,000 people on earth today
    also does that mean that their can only be 53 people on the planet forever if they don't want genetic defects, even in like 10,000 years say?

  5. #85
    Member Since
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    There seems to be the point of where the switch is made from stagnation to "rolling" exponentially.

    The question remains then for me how destiny made is to exponentially without "going hungry" along the stagnation line of the curve.

    Can that be done with apparently the wrong male to female ratio. And even if it could have been done, would they have had to make Wrey the Chief Breeding Officer (CBO); who assign pairs? lol

    Franky, I, not having done the math, have a feeling that there is a minimum number x of people required to jump start a planet with people in the millions. and 60-80 doesn't quite do it.

    I know from a documentary that sociopathy is mostly genetic, so someone should have been taking it slow. lol

    Rush is the full blown psycho. Probably he would have been able to get the people from Ikarus to Earth but he wouldn't miss his last train to Destiny.

    He would without hesitation come up with a number of "acceptable losses" of people he would sacrifice for what he believes is "the mission". Excluding himself of course. That number would be 100% no doubt. A bit like Locke's 'the Island demanded a sacrifice'.

    Moreover, tried to frame the Col with murder. Did not report that he was implanted with alien tracking device. Did not report the discovery of the main bridge. Was talking to imaginary or Desitny created people. Whacko mad scientist.

    I wonder what'd happen, if there is was a mission and Dr Rush gets all knowing or all powerful because of what he finds. Scary.

  6. #86
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
    Member Since
    Nov 2007
    My Throne in Heaven

    Default Re: Genetic Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by Net effects unknown View Post
    Actually i believe 50-100 can do the trick. The numbers vary because it's not something you can do an actual experiment with. However, it does strongly depend on how diverse the gene pool is. Since none of them are relatives, this is already a good sign for genetic diversity. It also depends on other factors like genetic diseases and such. However, 80 can be done:

    For example, the elephant seal was hunted down to around 20 seals by the late 1890's. Today there are around 30,000 and they are all pretty much the same genetically. (Because of the way elephant seals mate, all of the elephant seals around today could have come from a single father.)

    The estimated effective size of the founding population for the New World is about 70 individuals," said Jody Hey, a professor of genetics at Rutgers University.

    It's not perfect or risk free (safer numbers would be 160+) but it can be done, and in case of the seals (not humans but still....), has been done.

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