: Eternals Feedback Thread: Set 1 Uniques
{{champion:27}} Singed OTP Here A huge element of Singed is SPEED. You try to incorporate that by having "Distance Traveled While Under the Effect of R." However, this seems pretty boring. Its merely a volume stat that just requires moving (which Singed constantly does) while ult is running. I think a much better way to approach this concept is to play into his passive (movement speed boost near ally/enemy champ), especially because it can stack. Sometimes in teamfights, Singed gets moving REALLY fast because he is drifting off many nearby allied and enemy champions (while R is running, as well). So I think it would be cooler to have something like: **Seconds traveled while having at least X Movement Speed** I'm not sure what X should be but suppose you made it equal to: [345 (Base Movement Speed)] + [45 (for standard upgraded boots)] + [MS from Rank 2 Ult] + [MS from drifting off 3 allies/enemies] and of course then adjust for the the fact that MS scaling falls off at a certain point. Basically, pick a number that would typically be reached when drifting off 3+ enemies/allies in the mid game. Sure, it might be more easily reached in games where Ghost/Swifties are taken but I think that's OK as it is much cooler as a concept and slightly more difficult to achieve. **EDIT:** I'm not really a proxy Singed player but it might also be cool to have "Seconds spent beyond Tier 1 Turret pre-15 minutes" or something that would track his time spent proxying in the early game.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 27
Context on Dark Seal nerfs? I'm particularly worried that some champs ({{champion:27}} ) may be adversely affected when they aren't the users being targeted.
Rioter Comments
: Patch 9.5 Notes
Sure, the Sylas changes work to encourage an AP build but overall they can be seen as buffs. I find this worrisome as what should be a niche pick (based on opponent's ultimates) is often blind picked in pro.
: Ranked 2019 — /dev Update #3
I have some questions about Diamond LP gains and losses. Everyone knows that last season, Diamond was roughly the top 2%. But is this a fixed percentage or was it just how things played out? My belief is that as long as a person is winning over 50% of their games, they should generally be able to climb. There are numerous reports of players who climb through Plat with ease, with a good winrate, only to immediately start receiving 16 LP per win and 20 LP per loss as soon as the crest into D4. Why is this? I've long had a concern about MMR and its influence on climbing. Adjusting LP gains to MMR is important to: (1) Get smurfs quickly up to their proper rank; (2) Drop accounts back to their proper rank that were illegally boosted. But a person shouldn't be held back from climbing simply because the system thinks he isn't as good as others (due to the hidden MMR calculations). For instance, if a player tends to CS poorly, but has some other intangible strategy that leads to winning, he should be able to climb without MMR affecting his LP gains too much. If CS is so important, at some point he'll be punished by in actual losses. Let that be the point where he is unable to climb further rather than having MMR hold him back prior. **My feeling is that MMR is too heavily impacting LP gains in Diamond+ because this was a hotfix to get the early climbers in Masters+ back down to earth, but now it is killing the desire of many D4 players to even try to climb.** Any insight you can give would be helpful.
: So I had a Wukong and a Vi support in my past two games. Thanks positional matchmaking.
Had a Kayle mid today who is a top main. Our Lucian was camped early and a bit tilted. Kayle absolutely did not care and typed in chat: "Keep talking. This is my fill game. You think I care if I lose -3 LP. I'll afk." Did not AFK but did go 1-10. Absolutely gave no care. **I would much rather have a player the same rank who has to try when he's autofilled because his LP is on the line, then a higher ranked player who could care less.**
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 8
Loading Screen: Summoner icons are too small and should be larger.
Meddler (NA)
: Some concern from people it's an overly effective and safe pick. Probably backing away from the nerf though, don't think they're causing that much of a problem overall and high usage rate partly just reflects other choices in that tree being niche or less appealing.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=bOoAxRmj,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-30T16:44:30.391+0000) > > Some concern from people it&#x27;s an overly effective and safe pick. Probably backing away from the nerf though, don&#x27;t think they&#x27;re causing that much of a problem overall and high usage rate partly just reflects other choices in that tree being niche or less appealing. I'm glad this was pulled and just want to share my perspective. Playing top lane, I think the decision whether or not to take boots reflects knowledge and experience. Certain matchups you need to rush the early mobility to avoid enemy abilities (e.g., Aatrox W, Urgot Q, Yorick Wall) so opting for slightly magical boots is actually the incorrect decision. Second, I almost always opt for Stopwatch and am slowly compiling 1v1 or 1v2 outplays using it (on Singed, no less). One reason for boots prevalence is that people don't have the experience or skill to use Stopwatch so they opt for boots. For those of us who do get good value from Stopwatch, nerfing boots would simply make the decision a no-brainer.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 14
Love the idea of taunt lines! You could also have some that automatically trigger when a certain event happens. Artifact (the card game just released by Valve) has a ton of these and I have to say its pretty awesome.
: Play tanks, it neutralises Viktor Top. Stop complaining, he’s good against bruisers, bruisers are good against tanks and tanks are good against mages.
> [{quoted}](name=KOGMIDONLY,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2iPv9zcA,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-10-29T08:28:58.120+0000) > > Play tanks, it neutralises Viktor Top. Stop complaining, he’s good against bruisers, bruisers are good against tanks and tanks are good against mages. I think this in itself is a problem. Top lane shouldn't simply be who gets counterpick wins. Every class of champ played top needs itemizations/runes that help even the lane in poor matchups but don't make good matchups better.
Rioter Comments
: Except a role based system is what we need. Like, what if I'm a diamond level Support, but decide to play Top, yet I put out a silver level Top? That's not fair to those who are actually putting out Diamond level skill.
I've written multiple times in different forums as to why I think this is an awful idea. I'm not going to do a full analysis again but I'll give you the short answer. It is going to feel TERRIBLE and way grindier under the proposed system. If I get an off-role I really don't care about earning points for it. Sure, a few point will go toward my main role if I win but I could care less about that game. I don't want to level up five positions. I don't have the time. I understand the underlying problem. Both the current system and the proposed system have pros and cons. I feel the current system outweighs the new one. What would be better at fixing the problem is to have hidden MMRs for each position so you can get put with slightly easier opponents if you are off-role, but that win should still contribute to a singular rank. Either way, if you are a diamond support you won't get put with silvers when you are off-role. They have said that the minimum difference will be about 5 tiers. A hidden MMR could use a similar minimum difference.
: Patch 8.19 notes
I thought having different ranks based on position had been scratched due to the amount of negative feedback. Please don't tell me this is back on board again!
Doge2020 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Palaven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8mbQAZfz,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-09-20T21:14:04.858+0000) > > Eh... First off, while my discussion uses Singed as an example I wasn&#x27;t saying that he needs help. My thoughts are... > > 1) Liandry&#x27;s is supposed to be a tank busting item. If you don&#x27;t think AP champs should have a tank busting item that&#x27;s a fair opinion (although I&#x27;d disagree with it). I would say, though, that it needs to be balanced properly - I love tanks, I&#x27;m not trying to render them useless. > > 2) Liandry&#x27;s fails for busting tanks on Singed. It also fails on Rumble as well as spell rotation based Mages (you hardly see it on them). Most champs who build Liandry&#x27;s presently are mana-less or don&#x27;t care about mana too much (thus, there are limited options). Rumble and Singed actually tend to prey on squishy targets and the present Liandry&#x27;s helps with that. I think that Liandry&#x27;s should be made weaker against squishies and stronger against tanks. > > 3) I don&#x27;t buy the Conqueror&#x27;s notion at all, at least not on Singed. Singed wants Sorcery (for Celerity) and Inspiration (for Time Warp Tonic). Also, at present, Precision tree gives attack speed which is basically useless. 1) yeah I know Liandry’s is supposed to be a tank busting item for AP champs, but those champs already have a ton of spellpen and also Void to deal more damage to tanky champs. I am thinking that if you add more true damage to the game, then you can accidentally give another way that can make tanks useless. True damage can only be countered by having more max health, but what if the true damage scales with the target’s true health? Then it becomes an extremely powerful tank busting item that makes it hard to itemize against because literally the only way that tanks can counter the item also makes it deal more damage to them. This item would probably end up in the same situation as a fed late game Fiora against a tank. 2) I agree I think Liandry’s should have more power against tanks, I just think that adding more true damage to the game is not the way to go. If you build Void on rumble you will find that you will deal a shit ton of damage to both squishies and tanks with ult and your other abilities. I would really like another AP item to help against tanks, but I just don’t think adding more true damage is the way to go. 3) yeah a conq build would be better on Rumble, the AS from precision can help him deal more damage when overheated, and you can build either more raw AP or more tank like items so your abilities don’t deal less damage with the conq and spellpen/lethality interaction. I would think the more tanky build would be better so you can survive in a teamfight longer and get/keep the conquer rune.
Ok, you can avoid true damage altogether. Make it 4%+ max HP. It's pretty much the same thing when you factor in the average amount of magic defense a mid- to late game tank will have. The core of the concept is this: Have considerably higher % max HP damage than it has currently (which is 1.5%-2.5% on PBE) but only have this damage apply to targets with certain HP values. You can even lower the base AP on the item. Make it so that if you pick it, you are heavily sacrificing your damage to squishies. The concept it is that is much more effective vs tanks but much less effective vs non-tanks.
: {{champion:82}}
I should have mentioned Morde. His ultimate can make it broken. You could put a cooldown timeout on it (e.g., after a certain amount of application the passive won't apply on the same target for X seconds).
Doge2020 (NA)
: One thing that you could try do and something I want to try soon, is on somebody like singed or rumble (and have Liandry’s of course) use the conquer rune and try see how that interacts. I haven’t tried it in game yet (don’t have enough time when I remember it and I usually forget stuff lol) but from what I think and have seen it could be really good in adding lots of true damage to your DOTs, which btw {{item:3194}} does not reduce true damage. Also one thing, the reason why it is good on rumble and other mages and not so good on singed is that usually the other mages build at least spellpen boots to counter the MR that the enemy will buy. And if I remember correctly singed players don’t normally build spellpen or void staff. I would really like to see a buff like that going to Liandy’s, but the problem with adding that idea is that there is already a ton of true damage to the game. And conquer already kinda shreds tanks pretty damn hard. so reworking an item passive to instead deal true damage to help just one champion that struggles when buying it (singed) is not only impractical, but will also most likely make the game not fun and probably more toxic. Maybe instead of true damage, have Liandry’s burn still increase like how you said (but without converting to true damage) but instead also a percent of the magic damage from the passive bypasses the target’s MR.
Eh... First off, while my discussion uses Singed as an example I wasn't saying that he needs help. My thoughts are... 1) Liandry's is supposed to be a tank busting item. If you don't think AP champs should have a tank busting item that's a fair opinion (although I'd disagree with it). I would say, though, that it needs to be balanced properly - I love tanks, I'm not trying to render them useless. 2) Liandry's fails for busting tanks on Singed. It also fails on Rumble as well as spell rotation based Mages (you hardly see it on them). Most champs who build Liandry's presently are mana-less or don't care about mana too much (thus, there are limited options). Rumble and Singed actually tend to prey on squishy targets and the present Liandry's helps with that. I think that Liandry's should be made weaker against squishies and stronger against tanks. 3) I don't buy the Conqueror's notion at all, at least not on Singed. Singed wants Sorcery (for Celerity) and Inspiration (for Time Warp Tonic). Also, at present, Precision tree gives attack speed which is basically useless.
Rioter Comments
: Preseason Development Update 1
Generally, these things look fine. The outer turret thing looks weird but I'm sure I'd get used to it. I really like the rune stat changes proposed!
: Patch 8.16 Notes
Ever since Nautilus had his riptide damage nerfed in several patches a long time ago he hasn't been the same. Tanks tend to do a lot of early game damage to squishies then have their damage fall off late. He can't match other tanks in this department. To avoid him simply afk pushing top, add a debuff so it does 50% damage to minions.
: [GAMEPLAY] Game fails to initialize until the ten second mark
I'm often getting in around 14-16 seconds and so is my team.
: League gameplay changes over the next few months
Want to make two comments. First, I see there are more Wukong nerfs on PBE. While I don't actually play that champ (one of my friends does) I'm worried that BOTH giving him a nerf AND lowering burst through runes leaves him really short. I would suggest seeing where he lands after nerfs to burst runes then returning to him. Second, I'm not sure a longer laning phase will allow a particular player to have an impact in a game. I play top lane which is most likely to have the game decided before I can get involved. But the issue isn't "How much gold do I have?" but rather "How much gold do I have compared to the enemy team carries?" Suppose my bottom lane is getting smashed in lane. Lengthening their laning phase will simply result in me being even further behind the enemy marksman in gold, as he keeps getting kills during the laning phase. Often shortening laning phase allows me to get involved before the disparity is too great. But, on the other hand, it is important for me to have my key items. The real issue is with players not playing safe/defensive enough in a losing situation. Not sure length of the laning phase is relevant to that issue but a longer laning phase potentially allows them to feed harder.
: Tank changes for 8.16
Hoping this thread isn't too old to give some input on Nautilus and what I think he needs. I used to play a lot of Nautilus support in Seasons 5 and 6. What unfortunately happened is that his E (Riptide) had nerfs applied to its damage in patch 5.13 and then again in patch 6.5. It additionally had its mana cost increased in patch 7.8. Since then Nautilus has received a number of minor buffs but nothing has properly brought him back to even being viable. **Current Power Level:** His current power level is undeniably weak. He is a fairly simple champion to play yet has a 49% win rate across all ELOs in NA over the last month. Meanwhile, another simple champ Garen leads winrates at over 54%. And this gets worse as you climb higher in ELO, as he is the 130th winrate champion in Diamond at 47.7%. **Place in Game:** Nautilus has good engage but if you are picking a top lane champ for engage you would pick Ornn. Ornn also deals consistently more damage throughout game and has numerous other advantages to Nautilus. As a support, Nautilus again comes up short primarily because his trades (when he can land a hook) aren't efficient enough. When I used to play Nautilus support it would be devastating if I could land a hook on the enemy ADC. Now the trades don't feel meaningful and the enemy sustains back up - assuming I don't get poked down before the trade even happens. **What Nautilus Needs:** Frankly, Nautilus needs his Riptide to do more base damage, especially at early levels. Mid to late game Nautilus' damage completely falls off anyway and he is simply a CC bot. He needs an early window when allowing him to hook and trade puts you in a really bad spot. Historically, in the top lane, the balance team has had issues with him fast shoving the wave (Triple Doran's Ring - which also got nerfed in part to Nautilus as well as other tanks). **What I suggest is increasing his Riptide damage but putting on a debuff to lane minions, such as 50% damage. This way he can actually get in good trades but will not be oppressive in hard shoving waves top lane.**
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 27
As a long time tank player I think there are two major issues gating them: 1) The introduction of conqueror made bruisers and fighters too powerful vs them in top lane. I know it just got a small nerf but I don't think that was enough. 2) Tanks have served as critical pieces of the puzzle for both protecting and engaging on ADCs. When ADCs got nerfed the value of tanks plummeted. Many players, including myself, have created a long term identity either protecting/deleting ADCs. That single change in 8.11 has drastically changed the feel of League of Legends for us (more for the worse than better, but it is what it is).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 25
My issue with the support item cost being increased to 400g is that it removes the option of buying refillable (something I almost always do). Refillable is more of a value item where I assume the change is to prevent supports from taking three health potions. Doran's users already can't take refillable on their first buy. It's been limited as an option to Junglers, Dark Seal users, and Supports. If it gets removed as an option for supports it is now even more limited as a starting item.
Oto (EUNE)
: Uhh doesn't that leave him with even fewer weaknesses?
The biggest weakness Nasus has is that he is easily kited in teamfights. This isn't changing.
Meddler (NA)
: Not sure if I'm being trolled here, but in case not, no, we won't be buffing Zoe at present. We think she's too strong, so have nerfs to her in the next patch (W MS and W AP ratio).
Really glad to hear this. As a top laner I hate facing her because its so hard to ever catch her. First, she can often sleepy trouble me when I go for her (fair enough). But then when I dodge her abilities the move speed boost makes it impossible to catch her (seems entirely unnecessary in her kit).
Meddler (NA)
: I think it's possible making Banner and/or Zz'Rot more concentrated, something more tactical and less strategic, might be a good approach. We didn't want to try that with Banner at this point however because the odds of landing that correctly on the initial version aren't great, so it risked creating another period of disruption around it. If we do ever try it, or Zz'Rot work, on that scope, preseason's the most likely window as a result.
I'm really sad to see Banner going but I don't think Zz'Rot should face the same treatment. The changes to Zz'Rot a while back already addressed the primary issue (pushing a lane without being there). In its current form, the Zz'Rot minions don't go very far up lane. The primary issue with banner is that you can drop it on a minion in your base and it will push all the way to the other base (plus perhaps issues with time cost clearing the minion). For a Zz'Rot portal to be used effectively, the champion using it has to actually walk all the way near an enemy turret and drop it (plus it is quicker to destroy than a banner minion).
Kenny xP (NA)
: Need a Top Laner for clash
I'm Plat 2 if you're interested. My Singed will get banned but I can play other champs.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 30
Had been meaning to ask about Nautilus here for a while but figured the team would realize he needs help. Glad to see its finally happening!
: "Numbers tuning on some other runes that are just not balanced well enough (e.g. Approach Velocity is weak, Celerity is strong etc" Does this mean Riot will shift the power back into Phase Rush if Celerity gets nerfed? Phase Rush is already awful and just straight up nerfing Celerity is a big hit to Phase Rush users specifically.
Playing Nasus or Singed into Phase Rush Darius already feels awful. Don't think Phase Rush is in a bad spot, just think its really niche.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 16
From a top lane perspective, when I am on red side I am glad that the blast cone is spawning later. Just want to point out that one frustration I had with it previously was that it wasn't spawning early enough. Often from red side I would push the first wave, then roam to the top of enemy blue buff. At that point I would want to set off the enemy blast cone to prevent the jungler coming over the wall outside of my ward vision, but it wouldn't have completely grown yet. This fix works as well though because it won't have grown right for that perfect timing after he finishes blue and might want to gank top.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 9
I've seen comments in different places about objectives not being powerful enough to finish games. After another game this morning (in EU) that was just stalled by waveclear, any news on possible buffs to Baron or Elder Dragon buffs? To me, it seems that Baron buff should make minions much tankier late in games (40 minutes+).
Rojo176 (NA)
: I mean ardent meta was terrible because the item was rushed because it was op. It isn't like they are over buffing an item or adding op items to get this meta back. They are introducing this concept into an environment where support items are balanced among each other, so it will not be like the ardent meta.
As I said, "I don't dislike the proposed change." Just need to be careful that no item ever slips into the OP category of Censor. The Original Post used Censor to show something he claimed supports liked. That worries me but I hope things will remain balanced.
Rioter Comments
ItsLowbo (NA)
: Changes to Sightstone/Support Items coming to PBE
You stated: "One thing we’ve learned from Ardent Censer over the summer is that Support players greatly appreciated the ability to rush impactful items..." This meta actually made me quit playing support for several months. Being forced to rush Ardent Censor over Sightstone was even worse, as the meta favored heal/shielding supports. I don't dislike the proposed change. Just saying that you need to be careful that the meta doesn't favor some other item rush (such as Ardent Censor) which favors one category of supports.
Rioter Comments
: Patch 7.22 notes
There's only one choice under Precision: Combat???
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 3
"What would you like to see more of in these posts?" I love hearing game design philosophies and principles, whenever they are relevant and can be fit in.
: Huge lag after this patch
I've been getting lag but has nothing to do with the patch. For some reason my internet (in the Bay Area, CA) is having horrible lag to the Riot servers. Internet seems to be working in general but some connection along the way sucks.
: Hey asyrite... Thanks a lot for your response as well as the time and effort you put into it. I'm not bothered by grammatical flaws, I'm a psychology major, not a literature major :p. I typically don't have the time to respond as quickly as I'd like so I do apologize that it took me so long to clarify a few things. Honestly, my frustrations aren't really tied to being unable to "carry games solo." This element has always been present in league, though admittedly in previous seasons it certainly felt the potential to solo carry games was much higher. That's neither here nor there as that's a rather amibiuous element of game play to accurately measure. It does feel like that's true to an extent but no, I wouldn't say it's a "gripe." It's simply part of the game. I imagine much of my frustration comes from fighters and top lane in general. This isn't the first time bot lane decides the game, in reality that's been true for 80% of leagues existence. But it's the manor in which it happens - between ganks, dives and a plethora of tools available in this game to secure kills with relative ease, it feels like bot - and in many cases mid - become such disatoruous or advantageous stomps that I likely have very little to contribute to the game except split push. That's frustrating as hell. I also can't interact with my lane opponent because any sign of aggression is likely the result of an incoming gank so top lane becomes this remote island where interaction is scarce because junglers have way too much control over the lane (and the game quite frankly but that's another toooc entirely). I'm fed up, im tired and I'm burnt out. I've always sworn to myself if I'm not having fun anymore, im not going to stick around for long. I will finish the season because it would bother me on a personal level of it didn't - I don't care if anyone thinks that's lame honestly. And the things that make this so unfun with melees sucking, creep block, game pace, glass objectives and general snowballing, they are things that have been true really all season and even parts of last season. I've lost faith that Riot wants to fix this because in my estimation, given Riots obsession with competitive play, im not sure that the top brass even see it as an issue because their pockets are getting lined regardless. And let's not pretend money isn't a big deal here, I don't even blame them. I used to deny that Riot lost its "ties" the community but in reality, it has and it has for a long time. With all of this things culminating, I've reached the conclusion that this game is no longer worth my time. Anr I don't see anything changing my mind on that.
Hey man, just wanted to share a few thoughts. I'm P2 (fairly close elo) and play Support, Top, and Jungle. 1) I used to be a top main. One of my main frustrations was something that you pointed out, although I'll reword it slightly differently: It feels like a 1v1 and a 4v4, and if your team loses the 4v4 really hard, you have no impact. By the time you end top laning phase and join your team, the other team is so far ahead that you barely hurt them and they slice right through you, even if you've been CSing really well and perhaps have a 1-0 or 2-0 lead on your laner. 2) This is a big reason I switched to being a support main. If one teams bot lane gets smashed that team usually loses. So if I can just stabilize the 4v4 portion by playing a really good support game, then it keeps the team in the game as a whole. 3) To play top lane in the situation as I discussed in point (1), you really have to have the mentality of Sirhcez. You're just gonna have doing your thing. Many games it won't matter because your side of the 4v4 wins hard. Many it won't matter because the other team's 4v4 wins hard. But then you get those sweet games where the game is close coming out of laning phase and you can have a big impact. 4) This is a sidenote but I think the advice, "Learn to carry," has created a bad trait. Every player thinks they need to carry. So they take a ton of risks to get kills in lane. However, this often leads to a bunch of kills/deaths both ways. As a top laner I would tend to play fairly safe. I'd CS really well, try to get an opportunistic kill, but generally go even or maybe get a kill or two from a gank. Then I'd exit laning phase and be fighting the enemy ADC who has 6 kills and an enemy mid laner who has 5 kills. Even if my ADC and mid laner both have 4 kills, MY CHARACTER is well behind the other team's ADC and mid-laner in gold, which causes me to get shredded. When the 4v4 engages in a fiesta style and the top laners stick top, both top laners are really far behind everyone else in gold and its hard to feel you have an impact. Suggestion: My only suggestion is to consider changing roles. Perhaps play Jungle (I won't ask you to play Support, although that's also an option). Get yourself into the 4v4 part of the game and you'll feel you have a larger impact.
: What is up with LOL's match making? (Warning Rant)
Its frustrating but its part of the game. To climb best you gotta know when to dodge. Use that one "free" dodge per day. If you use it, stop playing ranked for the next 18 hours until its up again. Try to avoid bad team comps or games where you have autofills in key roles.
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Rioter Comments
: Patch 7.14 notes
I know that when you Q somebody with {{champion:111}} you auto-attack them right after. Not sure if this overrides other abilities or not but it may have been left off the list.
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