Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread


Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

Update: We have decided to stop allowing anonymous comments. Not because we don't like reading what people have to say but because Blogger has introduced a new "feature" that makes you go to a second page when the number of comments go over 200.

It's very easy to set up a Google account so that you can continue commenting.


Previous Open Thread here


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ed iglehart said...

Hello? Anybody here/


Aunt Judy said...

I'm first!!

Aunt Judy said...

dang! Just missed it!

ed iglehart said...

Talk about premature!

Yamaka said...

Good Morning Fellow Democrats:

Houston is cloudy; it may rain today!

But our thoughts are clearer and our focus is getting sharper every day.

As of this moment,

HRC has 1701 delegates to BHO 1718. She is behind barely 17 (see the left last box, demconwatch.blogspot.com)

PA will change this tomorrow.

The Magic Number is 2208, as we believe in Full Democracy.

Last week, AOL Straw Poll had 370K voters, and 54% favored HRC, good for America.

Good folks at PA:

Don't allow the BigMoneyBags of BHO confuse you. They want to steal your votes, but you know your hearts are with Rocky the Big Girl.

Message will win over Money.

Good Day.

Smile and Vote.

countjellybean said...

Current List of Leaners:

Clinton [11]:
Martinez, Robert
Strauss, Bob

Obama [10]:
Campbell, Margaret
Johnson, Denise
Johnson, Joe
Smith, Edward
Maine's Add-On

ed iglehart said...

Hillary's Columbian connection seems to have the promotion of literacy and prosperity in Colombia as its goals.

Is it a proper use of its resources to contribute to political campaigns in the USA? Is it legal to accept contributions from foreign institutions?


Yamaka said...

My PA prediction:

God Willing,

the Genuine American Classic will run away with the Trophy by 7 to 9% margin, in spite of all the mega money, all the fuzzy and messy blather of BHO!

In spite of reality, who knows, they still may have the Coronation at Hyde Park, tomorrow!!

Smile and Vote.

Amot said...

I hope the profanity will not move to the new thread! I know it is open, but let us think twice before we write! I don't want to see this great site turning into street fight.
Those who want war instead of debate - go Iraq, practise some war and when/if you come back let us know what you think of war.
Please, behave!

Aunt Judy said...

Y: I'm hopeful my guy will do well in PA but the contests that come after will be easier wins to bag. Thank goodness we're going all the way through to June 3rd!

I'm all for letting every legal vote count. But I'm not for the votes of the Super's counting more than the votes of the Pledged.

jpsedona said...

Aunt Jean,

"Hey idiot ipsedona you don't know what you are talking about Hillary DID NOT campaign in Florida. She had 2 fundraisers there. But obama had 2 tv ads there now who got more exposure dumbass.also jcaesar91 you're a dumbass too!! GO HILLARY YOU"RE THE ONE TO GO TO THE WHITE HOUSE!!!!! Jean"

When was Hillary's fund raiser in FL? The Sunday before the primary. Was it authroized? Yup. Was the date a coincidence? Of course. We know she wouldn't want to purposely expose voters to her 'visit' on the FL newscasts just before the primary.

jpsedona said...


"Disenfranchising 3 million votes because of a bad Rule, that too very poorly implemented Rule, is the height of ignorance and arrogance. People are watching!

BTW, I will say this even if HRC has lost these two States. For me the basic principle is at odds with common sense."

The DNC screwed up when they set their rules. They should have followed the lead of the GOP and essentially docked the states 1/2 their votes. Unfortunately, they didn't do that. Harold Ickes voted to take away all of FL's votes. Now he's in the untentable position of saying they should count.

jpsedona said...



I believe that Hillary's margin of victory will actually be higher (10-12%). I think she comes out of PA by cutting Obama's delegate lead by 8-10 delegates.

Will it make a difference? Only if she can reverse his 15% standing in NC.

Daniel said...

What is the difference between the delegate count here and the delegate count on the Obama web site that takes two away from Clinton and gives them to Obama?

Yamaka said...

"Will it make a difference? Only if she can reverse his 15% standing in NC."

Yes, I believe so. Why?

This goes back to the legitimacy of the Nominee, IMO.

The Democratic Nominee MUST win most of the large MUST win Blue States first, before going after the Reds.


Plus, when BHO said, "The Republican Party is the Party of Ideas" where is the legitimacy for him to become our Nominee, anyway?

I am little worried about BHO's BigMoneyBags and the power of money. So I am bit cautious.

But I believe HRC is a superior Electable candidate for the GE:

1. She is a centrist, a moderate unlike BHO's FAR LEFT Liberal ideology.

2. She passionately believes in UHC. He does NOT have that passion. He wants to make it voluntary. He may even make SS and Medicare voluntary, if his Sponsors press him.

3. She is a woman going to make History of tearing down that Glass Ceiling erected over our Girls, for the past 50,000 years by macho Men.

4. He is a Kid, a Carpetbagger - He does NOT have the glorious Civil Right Heritage! He has a Kenyan Heritage, at best.

5. She is experienced and has been a Co-President with Maestro Bill Clinton. She has been the Brain Behind Bill, the man of mettle with a track record to prove: He won 379 Electoral Votes, an awesome achievement for any National Leader.

Voters of PA, please make a note of this.

Smile and vote.

jpsedona said...


Your five points were a generally lucid set of arguments. Including your general statement about a Dem nominee going after the Blue states first.

However, with respect to "4. He is a Kid, a Carpetbagger - He does NOT have the glorious Civil Right Heritage! He has a Kenyan Heritage, at best."

If there's a carpetbagger in the race, it would be Hillary. After the Clinton WH years, did they move back to Arkansas? Nope. SHe moved to NY so that she could run for Monihan's seat. THAT really is the modern day definition of a carpetbagger.


Then give her credit for: NAFTA; being the first impeached co-president; being the brain behind near disaster reinserting troops in Somolia; bypassing the opportunity to get Bin Laden on more than one occassion; need I go on? Bill is not Hillary. Hillary will not come anywhere close to 379 if she's the nominee.

Yamaka said...

"Harold Ickes voted to take away all of FL's votes. Now he's in the untentable position of saying they should count".

Harold Ickes or David Axelrod is NOT the issue here. Nor the Candidates.

It is the Leadership of the Democratic Party, the Members of the Rules and Credential Committees are at fault. Their pants are in fire. They walk naked shamelessly in the past 4 months.

The good Americans (about 50 million voting non-partisan, decent, reasonable people) are watching what basic principles of Democracy we follow or we break in reckless abandon. Accordingly, we will be treated in the GE.

And, the Lord is watching. What we do with our Free Will, that He hath given us.

For God is All Knowing and Merciful. When we disenfranchise 3 million holy votes, He will chase us to the Gates of Hell. Beware.

Smile and Cheer, Vote for Hillary.

RobH said...

Ijeomi writes:

"the Genuine American Classic will run away with the Trophy by 7 to 9% margin"


Plus 26 seven weeks ago
Plus 16 four weeks ago
And 7% is "running away with it"!
In a state with the can't miss demographics and the machine in her corner.


You hear Rendell spinning it? Now 5% is a "significant victory"

It's over folks.

Let's concentrate on McCain.

Yamaka said...

"Bill is not Hillary. Hillary will not come anywhere close to 379 if she's the nominee."

It is your opinion.

Let us wait and see what PA says.

You prefer to look at the small drawbacks/failure/scandals. I prefer to look at major achievements during the glorious 8 years:

22 million jobs, 3.75% a year growing economy. Brand America reigning supreme all over the world. Happy faces everywhere.

(What Color is your Parachute, anyway? Gloomy and depressed?)

Even during their Yale days, she was the Brain Behind Bill. Their love story is a story even beyond "Casablanca".

Clintons are God's Gift to America.

Obtaining the 379 Electoral Votes is our aim to achieve the Paradise Lost.

Yes.. we can.. believe Regaining the Paradise we once enjoyed.

That's what the Man from Hope keeps saying. You better follow him.

jpsedona said...



This a valid point. The Amercian people do want basic principles followed. Dems generally want FL & MI to participate. And yes, it's the fault of the DNC that there's a mess like this. But, this wasn't done in a vaccum.

Additionally, Americans respect those who play by the rules. They believe fair play, honesty and good sportsmanship.

This is why some people are offended by changing the rules / moving the goal posts on the part of the Clinton campaign. They also find it objectionable that Obama has stalled any compromise. There is no chance that either candidate will agree to seat the delegations in a fashion that gives an advantage or talking point to the other.

In FL, the campaigns could agree to 1/2 vote for each pledged & super delegate. Clinton won't like that scenario because it doesn't reduce her deficit in pledged delegates. Obama does not want to seat the delegate as is. FL will be resolved; but not until a presumptive nominee has been chosen.

In MI, the district conventions allocated the bulk of the uncommitted delegates to Obama (some allocations remain). However, the same arguments as FL will apply. It will get resolved, but not until a presumptive nominee has been chosen.

jpsedona said...


Rendell is a very skilled politician. I think what he was trying to do with the %5 is to set a lower expectation. Not because he expects that she'll only win by 5%, but so that a victory of 10% would be able to be spun as a massive victory.

Aside from traditional turnout issues, I think the question is what the results from new voter registrations will be and to what degree these are reflected in any of the polls. If the majority are Obama, then it could be very close. If they break evenly, and the undecided in the polls break toward Hillary, she could eek out a double digit win.

Tomorrow will tell.

Yamaka said...

I just received an envelope from the Democratic Party in the mail. They want my money for the Victory Fund.

Hmmm. I am thinking. Should I send them $1000 for all the good work they do?

Yes, I will if they quit dreaming about violating the basic principle of Democracy: Count ALL Votes.
I heard the joyous screams in Hyde Park. They are already wining and dining at the Coronation of BHO Dinner! Is Ayers in attendance with Wright?

Yes, Rezko is writing the check for the Party! Frank Lucas of "American Gangster" is the Guest of Honor! Michelle's Dress is enthralling!!

Be humorous!

BHO believes in BigMoneyBags.

But Americans believe in Message.

That's a world of difference.

Smile and Vote for Hillary.

RobH said...


Agreed, Rendell is a very skilled politician and that's exactly what he is doing. Additionally, he has positioned himself to work very hard to deliver Pennsylvania in the autumn for Obama. Very interesting comments from him last week about how we'll rally behind the nominee. Also, a very interestig article in Politico this AM:


that should cause great hope for Democrats to carry PA in the autumn more easily than the "shrillsters" would have you believe. Really significant voter registration patterns (new and changed allegiances) that could move PA out of the swing category and closer to straight blue.

At least I'm hopeful.

While Rendell is thouroughly supportive of his candidate (as he should be) he also represents the levelheadedness required for us to win in November, too.

Yamaka said...


Don't underestimate McCain.

Your ridicules as McSame, McBush and McWar will not stick at all. You are naive, and boyish. Grow up and meet the Giant.

He has awesome resume, and a name recognition. He is a celebrated War Hero, a Veteran with enormous records of Public Service and Achievements.

Against, the "Skinny Guy with a Funny Name" will be ridiculously pathetic, Beware. Fuzzy talk with messy character, judgment and credibility will NOT work.
BHO can talk and talk. But can he walk the talk? No.... NO... No, as Wright says.

"Clinton" is a name that brings terror in the eyes of their political rivals and enemies. Understand.


Smile and Cheer.

jpsedona said...

Here's a question for all. Let me preface it by saying that this could apply just as readily to Obama as Clinton.

If Hillary is such an advocate for Universal Healthcare, and is an experienced legislater, why didn't she introduce a Bill for UHC during 2007? Wouldn't have been to her benefit if the plan was introduced, even if it wasn't passed? or if it passed and was vetoed?

I am sure that it might have received criticism of her Senate colleagues who were also running for President at the time. But their opposition would have allowed positioning them as being against "covering everyone".

Her healthcare plan had been introduced as a Bill, she could claim that she was doing something about healthcare because it mattered so much to her.

I suspect that she wanted to retain this as a Presidential campaign issue (a jewel for her crown if elected). I am not sure that she would have feared an outright failure (given she was so far ahead in the polls at the time). But her claims about UHC would have resonated much stronger if it was introduced and action one way or the other was taken.

RobH said...

BTW, to Ijeomi (and everybody else, too):

We can all calm down regarding FL, MI, and disenfranchisement. No one is going to be disenfranchised.

As soon as Obama secures the nomination in early June, after all primary votes have been counted and the SD's move to him in enough numbers to put him over the top, he will announce that these delegations should be seated, and allowed to vote for their candidate. FL delegates for Clinton can happily cast their votes accordingly, and thus experience no disenfranchisement. Some arrangement will be made for MI, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's basically "cast your vote for your choice." (HRC should not be opposed to that, as it is fair, but might result in some very interesting delegate counts.)If that violates some DNC rules, or aggravates some easily disgruntled MI voters (read HRC supporters who ant to promote a MI shutout), then they will be disenfranchised by choice.

It's going to be all right, really.

And no, Ijeomi, there will not be war in Denver. BTW, you've exposed yourself as a Repub operative. You earlier claimed to be a Texas delegate for HRC. Liar! What Democrat would PROMOTE war in Denver? You are seriously flawed.

jpsedona said...



There's little doubt given the last 4 months that the Repubs WANT to run against Hillary. Every right wing radio / tv talking head wants Hillary. That she couldn't wrap up the coronation on Super Tuesday led to a Rep strategy to support Hillary and encourage an extended process by having Reps vote in open primaries and switch parties.

The CW might be that the Reps might believe Obama is now a more flawed candidate over Wright, bitter comments, etc. Independent of the nominee, Reps love a drawn out contest and would love to see it go all the way to the convention.

Yamaka said...

My Magic Number has always been 2208. This is the Legitimate Number when you count ALL votes of ALL States.

Thanks for DCW for showing a box in the Left Side of the Page. I would like them to move it up to the Top! Because Full Democracy deserves a Full Count: 2208

All the liberal MSM and BHO crowd use this 2024 as the Number. This is illegitimate. Only for partisans, not for majority of the Americans.

Lately, Howard Dean understands the precarious mess we are in. If we do NOT treat FL and MI voters right, we will lose the Congressional Seats, besides the White House!!!

Now, the reality hits home. This I have been blogging for a long time.

Disenfranchising 3 million people means, we lose WH and the Congress. Pelosi and Reed can check in a Retirement Home!

Yes, we will wage a War in Denver, on behalf of the holy democratic principle of counting ALL votes.

We will destroy the Convention using the principles of Mass Civil Disobedience of Mahatma Gandhi.

BTW, Fuzzy Talkers need not join.

They can stay back in Hyde Park for a Coronation Dinner for BHO's rhetorical eloquence. Michelle's employer UC Hospitals will pay the bill!!! Lol. Please invite, though, Rezko and Wright. Ayers will be there even w/o an invitation!! lol.

I am going to Austin for the State Convention as a Delegate June 6th. I hope to get elected to the Nationals. Even otherwise, I will be there, for a new history unfolds before our eyes.

BTW, if I am a Republican, how come I get regular mails from Howard Dean. Is Dean a Republican? Lunacy!! Laughable. Grow up kids!

jpsedona said...



ANYONE, who emails the DNC gets added to their email (spam) list. They don't care if you're a Rep or Dem or what your politics are. The Reps do the exact same thing. so, "grow up", your comments are "laughable", and you have a lot to learn about communications within the political parties.

Dink said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dink said...

The last time we elected a Clinton, the "REAL POSITIVE CHANGE" we got was Republican control of both Houses of Congress for the first time in fifty years.

countjellybean said...

As to the Politio article, it didn't say how many of the new Democrats are former Republicans. I do think that will be a factor in tomorrow's primary.

Fact is, the GOP is stuck with a liberal Republican they didn't want. In the early primaries, McCain regularly got less than 15% of the mainstream Repulican vote. Crossover voting in open primary states and the split of the vote between Romney and Huckabee gave the nomination to McCain.

So the Republicans are now trying to turn tables on the Democrats. Some are even pretending to be Democrats on blog pages. Who can blame them? They're stuck with McCain and they are bitter about it.

Of course, there are reasonable limits. Call me naive, but I don't think even the most ardent Clinton supporter would refer to Obama as "his blackness", as Yamaka did.

However, by this time it really doesn't matter. Yamaka's banality has only served to discredit not only himself but also most of the Clinton supporters on this page. The only honest Clinton supporter left is Tyler.

Yamaka said...

"The Reps do the exact same thing".

I never got one mail from the Republicans in the last 10 years!

DNC got my name via Hillary!

For I always Stand Up for Her!!!

Remember, I am also a FOB. Even Reps know this!!!!

Reps want to meet Hillary for the GE. The reason is the Match will be worth watching!!

It will be like Mohammed Ali Vs Joe Frazier, worth watching. No one knows what's going to happen the next minute. It will be like a Thriller in Manila!

But with BHO, not even a Lightweight! Mohammed Ali would dance and knock him out even at the beginning of the First Round!! That's the reason.

Yes, I need to learn the fundamentals of politics and policies from Fuzzy Talkers!! I agree!!!

Smile and Vote for Hillary for REAL POSITIVE CHANGE.

Yamaka said...

"even the most ardent Clinton supporter would refer to Obama as "his blackness", as Yamaka did".

Please read it in the context I used.

As in SC, MS people said NC is BHO's territory. I agreed and I used the "his blackness" comment.

Believe me I have enormous respect for Dr. King and the glorious Civil Right Movement Heritage. King is a World Icon like Mahatma Gandhi is. Jesse is a Genuine American Black Heritage Leader, as he stood should to shoulder with Dr. King 40 years ago.

My only comment is BHO is eating Jesse's Lunch!

BHO's forefathers do NOT show the scars of slavery, discrimination and segregation, and the attendant misery.

For reasons I don't understand, people in SC, NC, WV and MS violate the preachings of Dr. King:
"Judge a person NOT by the color of the skin, but by the strength of the character".

Cheer and Smile. Vote for Hillary for REAL POSITIVE CHANGE.

Amot said...

We don't have to cheer, smile and vote!
We have to THINK and vote, so we can cheer and smile November!!!

Yamaka said...

An Open Letter to Sen Barack Hussein Obama Jr:

We are working very hard in PA, a very important battle ground - a bellwether State to capture the admiration of the American people (the partisans and others, who may not be voting in the Primary). Pundits say Hillary will win with 7-9% point. You may agree or disagree, it's your right!

But, on Wednesday, no matter who wins PA will you

1. Call Maestro Bill Clinton for a talk in his Bronx Office? He will be your Guru and you will be his Disciple. For every Winner, there is a Guru behind, according to Hindu Dharma. Tell him that you

2. Will agree to take a VP position and work for HRC, for the betterment of you, her, the Democratic Party and for America ?

If you do this you will prove to the entire World that you ARE a different kind of a person. Not just a talker, but a doer.

Will you, please, Senator.


A Delegate Standing Up for HRC.

SDs, please make a note of this.


Leah said...

It still amazes me how many people believe that Obama would for one minute consider being H. Rodham Clinton's V.P.

1) Obama is a man of integrity and would NOT want to be on a ticket with someone that is dishonest, a mudslinger, and a flip-flopper - or someone that voted for the war! Everyone get over it - it would not be a dream ticket it would be a NIGHTMARE.

2) Senator Obama is at the moment winning. He has won more states, more pledged delegates, more popular vote, has raised more money and is only 24 super-delegates behind his opponent. He as a total of +138 delegates over HDRC.

Any talk of HIM being HER V.P. is ridiculous.

So, why is she still in this race? IMO, it could be one of three reasons (or all three) 1)She wants to be his V.P. 2) She wants McCain to win so she can run again in 2012, 3) She wants to stay in the race in order to promote her website to bring in more donations to pay off her MILLIONS of dollars of debt.

ed iglehart said...


As to Barack Joining Hillary's ticket as VP:

As to her being invited to join his ticket as VP, Very hot places will need to freeze first

Yamaka said...

Why HRC/BHO Dream Ticket will be a WIN WIN for everybody except Cindy and John McCain:

1. HRC earned her TOP position by winning MOST of the MUST win Large States for any Democrat. BLUE STATES first, before talking about traditional RED States, which will never vote for BHO or anybody in the GE.

2. The possibility of making the First Woman POTUS History will just magnetically attract the 38 million plus non-partisan Americans to the Democratic Ticket.

3. Nearly 66 million Americans with Electoral Votes of 379 is within our reach, as it was in 1996. It will be a massive landslide, we may even have the entire Congress to our side (more than 2/3 majority).

4. We can achieve UHC, ending the WAR and revamping the Economy all in just FOUR years. Magic is possible, feasible and doable.

Paradise will be finally regained.

On the other hand,

If we continue to fight tooth and nail till June, ALL will be lost.

Paradise will never be regained.

Folks, think hard. Don't throw the Baby with the Bathwater!

SDs, please make a note of how to regain the Paradise Lost.


Leah said...

Open letter to Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton:

Dear Hillary-

I find it very offense that you promote the 'vote for me I am a woman' strategy. I am a woman and you are setting back the woman's movement and how men and young women view adult women that are trying to have 'equal' not 'superior' footing with the male population. Women want to be judged on their intelligence and hard work not by their gender.

Hillary face it you have too many scandals and lies in your past and the only reason the republicans want you to be the nominee is that they will blast you out of the water 24/7 by using all of your baggage against you and the democratic party.

Come on and face reality you are not a good role model for the youth of America - politicians should not be rewarded for being habitual liars and wives should not stay with husbands that are habitual cheaters. Please drop out of the race now before you do anymore damage. You will still have your senate seat and after you publicly endorse Senator Obama you can go on a much needed vacation.

If you apologize to Senator Obama for all the evil things you have done in this nomination race then maybe you still have a chance to attend his inauguration ball.

Thank you,
A white 48 year old southern woman

Yamaka said...

Good humor! A bad copy cat!

"The Republican Party is the Party of Ideas"--BHO

Oh, no, I misspoke, No..I forgot Ooops I am seeking the Nomination of The Democratic Party!!

Ah.. no I did NOT win MA NH CA TN FL OH (and PA!).... But still I have lots of money.. Hi..Hu..Hi I have BigMoneyBags. Why won't people take me seriously? My nicotine addicted brain is NOT working right!!

Remember, they are NOT just words..
Well, the Coronation Ball will have Wright as the MC, saxophone will be with Rezko. Ayers will guard the Mansion (he knows how to blow up buildings - he will be a good building watchman) and UC Hospitals will pay the bill. Michelle will be in gorgeous attire, however satirical it sounds!!

Folks, we know how to self-destruct ourselves. Ask our copy cat!!

Smile, Vote for Hillary for REAL POSITIVE CHANGE.

dwit said...

Is anyone familiar with Gold Service International?

Its a big Hillary donor, but they are from Bogota, Columbia and I can't read Spanish. Anyone help?


aunt Judy said…


Interesting website - even if it is in Spanish. One thing that jumped out at me right away was a reference about their top dog who's pictured there: Larry Summers.

Perhaps his name sounds familiar as he was in the Clinton Administration. Here's a link for his bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers

Hmm? Bogata company with Larry Summers making contributions to Senator Clinton's campaign...."

I'd sure hate to have this info pop up in a General.

Leah said...


Please answer this so that we can figure out what where you are coming from...

Why should Senator Obama (according to your post) say he will be HRC's V.P.? He will still be head in pledged delegates and in total delegates even if he loses PA.

Why do you think the person in FIRST PLACE should be thinking about taking a second place position?

RobH said...

Leah, in reply to your 3:18 post,

Reason's she would still be in the race? My money's on 2 and 3, only, and in equal measure.

In re your 4:33 post. Don't really expect a response. He/she/it is not real big on responding to direct questions. (Who knows, maybe he/she/it will prove me wrong.)

My thoughts on the mystery of our Ijeomi have evolved over two weeks. From honest representation, to Mark Penn in drag, to software, to simple repub ops. Here's my latest:

He/she/it is staying on ths page for the same reason that HRC is staying in the race. To toughen up the candidate (or in this case, us, his supporters). Do you see how his mere presence is sharpening up our support for, and appreciation of, our party's nominee? Honing our skills, if you will. I, for one, am thankful for his presence, and the solidarity producing effect it is having.

That, and the shear comedy.....

RobH said...

oof -

that would be "sheer" comedy, as in my use of the language.....

Leah said...

RobH -

Yep. Just like when some of the top Dems were saying that HRC should drop out and Senator Obama said she should stay in. I think he realized that by her staying in and continuing the race that more and more new dems would be registered in the upcoming states which will help him in November... and also with HRC bringing out any unflattering issues regarding Obama it would have less damage coming from HCR than the Repubs. By the time Obama cinches the nomination there won't be anything new that McCain can use against him :)

Hmmmmm said...

Yamaka, tell me one thing, how would HRC manage the economy, if she can not manage her own campaign properly, Obama has managed his campaign by far superiorly than her. She values loyality above anything else as in our current president, and is not ready to listen to new ideas. She is determined and calls herself a fighter, what if we don't need a fighter, we need someone with vision, to take the country in a new direction.

And about, your comments about Oabama's big money bags, he does not take any lobbyist's money, his contributers are normal people like me and thousands of others who have donated less than 100$, and he has vastly outspent her in media, or other crucial campaign spendings, but still has more money to spend rather than HRC, who has not paid even small vendors. And you want us to vote for her.

NO THANK YOU, I am going to take my chances with Obama.

RobH said...


I hope you will, regardless of the outcome of tomoorw's primaty, come on this thread at about 1AM.

I would love to read your spin, either way. If your candidate wins, I want to read your exhortations and prognostications for the future. If she loses, I want to read your explanations and predictions. Will you do that?

RobH said...

oof again -

"tomorrow's primary"

dwit said...

digging a little deeper on former Clinton Secretary of the Treasury, "Lawrence Summers, World-Class Economist and Globalization Expert".

He has definitely been lobbying for global trade interests other than Gold Service International.


More to come...

jpsedona said...


To your point about Obama as Hillary's VP, the underlying argument against it happening is related to the standing in June.

More than likely, Obama will finish ahead of Hillary by 140 or so pledged delegates. If the SD's were to choose Hillary over Obama, they would be in part saying that he's not electable but also that he's not qualified. I can't see Obama taking the VP slot if the SD's turn against him.

If Hillary gets the nomination, Obama and the Dem party will really know what bitter is all about.

dwit said...

"During the
Asian crisis, Larry Summers (1998) argued
that we would not wish to restrict the use of
airline travel just because of the occasional
plane crash, and by analogy that we would not want to slow globalisation."

A fascinating quote by Lawrence "Larry" Summers from an Australian article on "free trade" and "globalization". It seems he is very much in favor of the WTO and globalization in general.

Very interesting that he happens to be mixed up in this Gold Services International Group and that Hillary is the recipient of at least $1 million from them. Anyone else care to do a little digging.

I am shocked no media outlet is looking into this. Did I really just say that?


Leah said...

jpsedona -

If Obama ends up in the end with 140+ pledged delegate over HRC and the SD's try to over turn the 'voice of the people' the SD's will be run out of town and many of them will not be re-elected.

If the SD's do cast their vote for the person with 'less' pledged deletes it will be because of dirty politics and because of favors owed to the Clintons - it won't have anything to do with Obama's electability or anything else to do with Senator Obama!

jpsedona said...


Can you explain why Bill, if he's such a Maestro of Politics and Hillary if she's HIS brain, lost contests 2-1. Being the experts they are, with the political organization second to none, how could they overlook all of those contests that they lost?

How could Bill turn black support into an anti-Clinton force in the election by screwing up in SC?

Are you saying that in the caucus statess that they couldn't activate a large enough group of supporters with all of their strength of experience?

The fact is that she is not a particularly attractive candidate. She will attract 38 million Americans, it will just happen to be the conservative base.

I agree with you that the Fall election may be a landslide in a Hillary vs. McCain GE. We just disagree on the candidate that will take a butt kicking.

I also believe that Hillary will revamp the economy. If you don't think things could get worse, let her put her track record to work.

Don't worry, the SD's are going to go the route of self preservation and jump on the Obama bandwagon when things are all done. Then you can seat your FL & MI delegations.

jpsedona said...

As to Hillary's experience with the economy:

1) She knows her cattle futures
2) She knows deficit spending
3) She knows Nafta is bad, good, bad, good...
4) She knows Columbia wants the same deal as Mexico
5) She knows she could reduce a chunk of National debit on her own
6) She knows giving charitable donations to a foundation she runs cut her taxes by millions
7) She knows the burden to cover healthcare for all will rest firmly on the backs of the middle class
8) She knows that if illegal aliens are not included in the plan, then care givers will still be shouldering that burden
9) She knows that the easiest way to have campaign cash on hand is to not pay her bills
10) She knows that if she were bringing in the same $$ as Obama, she wouldn't want to take public financing either.

that to cover everyone under healthcare

Aunt Judy said...

Good Top 10 list JP!

Leah said...

Obama rally/townhall starting online on CNN live link in a couple minutes :)

jpsedona said...

Aunt Judy,

It's only a rumor but did Martha Stewart really give Hillary tips about investing in real estate and commodities?

dwit said...


So Larry Summers is the former President of Harvard who made the demeaning comments about women.

I had no idea. This thing just gets more interesting...

Somerled said...

But this is what bothers me...

A woman finds out that her spouse has been having an intimate affair. Some of the more illicit acts have taken place in the spouse's office. They decide to try and salvage the marriage. They move to another state. Then eight years later the wife makes it her sole ambition to move back to the same house and to work in the very same offices for the next four years. What kind of heartless animatron does THAT take??? The marriage is a mirage? I mean if you had any feelings at ALL it would be intolerable wouldn't it? Well, I mean for NORMAL people.

(ducking and covering ears)

jpsedona said...


Larry Summers is probably one of a large list of questionable relationships that would be brought up during a GE. I would guess that greatest play will be the donors to the Clinton Library. Since there are no limits on those types of donations, I would suspect that the potential for undue influence will be suspect.

jpsedona said...


The short version:

If Hillary thought that Bill would stop his fillandering once he reached the WH, shame on her.

If we believe he's stopped his affairs and won't have any if Hillary is elected, shame on us.

Jim said...

I have been absent for about a day and just finished reading all the crap(for the most part).
I will not respond to any of it.
I did get in a round of golf with my brother and he had some insider news.
His son is a Obama delegate from
Michigan (Chosen Sat in their district caucus) and he said DNC rep. assured Michigan would be seated using the results of Saturday's caucusses.
He has no idea what the split will be. He said it was pretty rough
bitter up there.

Somerled said...


Okay, so you agree. But you're missing the point. We all KNOW Bill Clinton will remain a scumbag. The question is - 'How can a woman (pardon the pun) ELECT to put herself in that situation???'

jpsedona said...


The CDW article on the home page related to the district caucus activities is very informative. I find it interesting that all but one of the 'uncommitted' delegates is supporting Obama. One would have thought there would have been a different split of uncommitted.

How contested were the allocations; when your son it was pretty heated up there, was it associated with the selection of the delegates or seating of the MI delegation?

jpsedona said...


If read about the Clintons' college years, it was Hillary who was the more politically active and ambitious of the two. She is entirely motivated by ambitions and ego (not much different than any politician). Many a wife has stood by a husband caught in a compromising situation. This seems to go much beyond traditional descriptions. I think she believes that she waited and put up with his BS for years, and now its her turn, and "... by God he's going to do his part". If it had been to her political advantage to jettison him, that's what I think she would have done.

Somerled said...

Absolutely...but still, to sit at that desk almost daily... I wonder if she'll have a CIGAR box on there? Heads of State thinking 'Gee, I wonder if that's the chair Bill Clinton was sitting in when...' Whoa boy. Then again, it WILL change the face America presents to the rest of the world.

Jim said...

It was my brother's son and I didn't talk to him.
The way I understood it, there were both Clinton and Obama supporters electing delegates to Denver. How Obama got representation to vote, I don't know.
I surmise that it was split based on the popular vote in the primary
With Obama somehow getting represented by the uncommitted.

Someone may have a better answer.

Jim said...

I can't find the link to the Detroit FREE press you posted
Could you repost it.
There may be an update there

jpsedona said...


Here's the link to the Saturday story from the Detroit Free Press:

Disunity within ranks as delegates fight over choosing Clinton versus Obama

I didn't see any updates.

jpsedona said...

On Saturday,Hillary said "my plan covers of everybody, and his plan leaves out 15 million".

Does her plan coevr the 12 million illegal aliens? Who pays for those people when they show up in an emergency room? If it's the hospital or clinic, then we all end up paying through higher premiums.

Or, is it possible that she intends to cover illegal aliens? She was for state issued ID's in NY, and then flip-flopped when she saw how unpopular that was.

Somerled said...

...well it would depend on whether or not the illegals were hit by sniper fire.

jpsedona said...

Hillary's top surrogate in PA, Gov. Rendell has said:

"Sen. Clinton has no street money," he said. "We barely have enough to communicate on basic media. Sen. Obama has money to burn."

Now, according to Fox News, it appears that Hillary is using street money in PA to encourage turnout for tomorrow's primary. Good 'ol time politics in PA...

dwit said...


What do you know about this group Gold Services International? They donated $1 million to the Clinton Library. It seems to be a very mysterious group, but when Aunt Judy pointed out the Larry Summers connection, I was much more intrigued.

He is the former Treasury Secretary under Bill and he seems to be a lobbyist for global trade groups.

His firing from Harvard over misogynistic comments in a speech are of note, but I'm more concerned about his ties with this Columbian group and what they do.

Anyone read Spanish?

ed iglehart said...

Watch Jimmy Carter
on BBC Newsnight

A fine man!

Namaste -ed

Yamaka said...

Good Evening Dear Democrats.

Esteemed voters of PA, yes you can make a difference tomorrow. The choice is clear:

Money Vs Message
Inexperience Vs Experience
Prosperity Vs Misery.

Here is what I learned from BHO recently (A possible Coversation)

- Hello Sen BHO, Good Morning
Assalamu Alaikum.

- Oh, Yamaka Alaikum Assalam. How do you know this greetings?

- Just reading different cultures. Did you read Koran, Sen, in Indonesia.
- Yes, I did. I was a Muslim. I used to recite many passages of Koran when I was age 9.
- What happened to the statement that "I have never been a Muslim"
- Oh, that, did I say that? Maybe. That's for public consumption, not true. I know the truth. I say whatever my BigMoneyBags ask me to say. That's all. Yamaka, I am getting angry at you, so I will call you Yama, an insult to you!
- Very well, Sen. In 2004 during your Senate Election, you promised that you won't run for National Office immediately. Why did you change your decision?
- Oh, that. Because the BMBs promised me big monies and prestige. Even though I don't have any experience I just took their bait. Any way, they butter my bread.
- Very well. Why do you want to give driver's license to illegals?
- Oh, that's pandering for votes. Just to get Latinos in my bag!!
- Sen, why do you want to wine and dine with Ahamedi'jad and Kim?
- They provide good food. It is a new idea. I just say whatever my handlers want me to say.
- Good. Why do you want to give tax break to everyone. How will you pay for it?
- I don't know. Ask my handlers. It is Magic. It's just words. They don't mean a thing. Yama, you irritate me a lot.
- Sorry, your Highness. What about women in our Society?
- They are pests. Just drown them in the sea. Hi...Ha....Ha...HI. Don't tell Michelle.
- What about Wright, Ayers and Rezko?
- They are my best friends. I they are my souls and breath. Am I smell nicotine?
- Yes, you have Body Odor too, Sen.
- I have addiction to nicotine and other things. Yama, you seem to know a lot about me. How come?
- I read a lot about you. Are you a Manchurian Candidate?
- Of course. I am a Puppet for Puppet Masters, the BigMoney Bags.
- How about your supporters, your Children?
- They are stupid, inexperienced. They believe whatever I say. I am their Piper. One day I will dump them in Gayana.
- Insha Allah, I will see you again after the PA.
- Insha Allah, we will.
- Thanks Sen your Highness of Kenyan Heritage!
- Good day, Yama. You are a pig.!!!

Cheers. Vote for Hillary for REAL POSITIVE CHANGE.

Smile and Cheer.

Jim said...

I will drop in to the blog tomorrow
with a trash can and you folks can toss in your crap against the candidate who wins.
Clinton folks, please discard, if she loses or wins by less than 8.
Obama folks please discard, if he loses by more than 8.
Then we can all start over for May 6, with more slime, sleeze and Rove like arguments.

Yamaka said...

No copy cats so far!!


Clintons have to contend the BigMoneyBag Sponsors of the Manchurian Candidate. That's why this Primary is this competitive.

Hillary's Opposition has

1. Anti-Clinton bleeding Liberals of the FAR LEFT: This crowd is the most vocal, who were canned during Clinton Administration. When he governed from the Middle, this crowd was humiliated. They wanted him to increase Welfare and Dependency. He resisted, hence the animosity.

2. Anti-Women Crowd: This is historical tug between women and men. Men wants the Glass Ceiling to be intact; they are the most insecure crowd.

3. Blacks. BHO with his credibility with Wright bought them into his fold even though he is just biracial grown up in a comfortable White household till age 19.

These are formidable groups of Opposition with tons of money. Therefore, Hillary has to fight back hard. She has to work harder than expected.

Smile. :)

Dave in NC said...

Dear President Bush,

I would like to thank you for 8 years of service to our country, at least that part of our country that includes you. By the way, when you were handing out favors to your cronies, you completely left me out even though I voted for you twice. Not a good call, my friend. Further, I was totally unaware that you were going to make gasoline as expensive as gold and the US dollar as cheap as used toilet paper. Therefore, I have switched parties and now support as our next president, Barack Hussein Obama, the Muslim terrorist that flew planes into the World Trade Center on 911. I believe he will make a better president than you.

I know that Iraq has been a tough war. I believe that if Hussein were to get us into a crazy war, he would choose Israel. Based on their performance against Hezbollah recently, I think we could take them. Most of our army is over there anyway, and I believe Syria would be willing to grant us passage and may even assist with the transportation.

However, my main concern is what if Hussein decides not to go to war at all? What would we do with all of the extra air time and news space that we now fill with war reports? So I thought it would be nice if you worked up a comedy act to, maybe fill some of the space. I think it is very funny how you pretend not to speak English very well, and I believe you could build an act around that.

I would recommend making it a solo act and not try to include any members of your administration because I totally agree with the talking baby on the E-Trade commercial that, in person, clowns can be very creepy.

So I would suggest that you spend the last few months of your term developing that act – and doing nothing else. Remember, the Chinese dish “Lame Duck” is best served without spice or preservatives and, god forbid any extenders. Speaking of China, maybe you could go there for the Olympics. While in China, perhaps you could visit our jobs and money. Be sure to send us a nice post card to let us know how they are doing and please let them know that we miss them here at home.

So, Mr. President, work on that comedy act, keep the White House clean, make sure the doors are locked at night, and try not to soil the carpet.

Oh, yes. When you leave, remember that all those pictures hanging about are NOT flat screen TVs stuck on the History Channel. So please don’t try to turn them off.

Sincerely yours,

Gobama ‘08

Yamaka said...

Dave in NC:

Very hilarious. Your make your points very well.

But, sorry to say that BHO is no terrorist, as far as I know.

I call him as Manchurian Candidate, and Trojan Horse, an Empty Suit etc.

But, no terrorist.

But Libyan Strongman Mummar Gadafy is a terrorist. Wright and Luis Farrakhan both paid a pilgrimage to him recently.

That does NOT make him a terrorist. No Sir.

Smile and Cheer.

Yamaka said...

My Conversation with BHO. Part II

-Assalamu Alaikum Sen Obama. Sorry to both you again. Just one more question.
-Alaikum Assalam, Yama. Sorry I called you Pig, the worst name in Islam. You deserve it, anyway.
-No problem, His Highness. I eat pigs anyway. Please tell me about your Iraq War conversion.
- What conversion or flip-flop, Yama?
- When you were in Illinois, you talked against the Iraq War, then once you are inside the US Senate you voted for ALL the bills funding the War, how come?
- Oh, that. Now I remember. You see I forget lots of things these days. My handlers say so many things everyday. They are all self contradictory in nature. But again they are the ones paying me, and they promised me glory and big money. Fine..... the truth of the War is, when I was outside I did not have any Intelligence that US Govt collected. So out of shear ignorance I said NO WAR NO WAR, then when I went inside the Senate, everyone told me the available Intelligence. Naturally, I flip-flopped. What' wrong, Yama you idiot!
-Senator, please remember you tell the world you ARE always against the WAR. In fact, you are NOT. Only Dennis Kucinich opposed the WAR all the time. You are an Opportunist. You take Kucinich's Thunder. This is dishonest.
-Well, you may call that. I don't care. I will say whatever my BMBs want me say. Get lost, you Pig, again.
-Senator please check your language. You are a Messiah, remember! See you tomorrow, after PA, Insha Allah.
-Maybe, maybe not. Insha Allah.


Aunt Jean said...

You obama supporter help me to understand why you would support a man that has sat in a church that is racist. I'm not saying everything that wright said was bad that's not what I'm saying but lets face it he has said some terrible things about America. Plus the fact that he was at a party with not so nice people at first he said he wasn't there and then come to find out he was. He has been caught in lie after lie. There was a health care analyst said that obama plan would leave out about 15 million people and that Clinton wouldn't and that cost wouldn't be that much more. I'm sorry but I don't believe that he only gets donations from the ave. joe. About the snipper fire there are people that keep making rude remarks about it she apologized for saying that can you not as human being acept her apology and move on. Now for the affairs that Clinton had in office was it right Hell no but just maybe he has learnt something from even if what he learnt is to keep his you know what in his pants.But I'm not voting for for Bill I'm voting for Hillary and I don't think that Hillary will let Bill run the white house I believe that she smarter than that. Now for Hillary yes she has lied and stretched the truth. But who hasn't. I do not truth Obama I'm not saying he's not a smart man all I'm saying is that there is more and more things that are coming out about him that are real questionable and frankly it scares me that there is all the bad people that he [not necessary his friend] but that he has associated with are very bad people.But the Obama supporters don't have a problem with that. But they have a big problem with sniper fire or there lack of it and Bill Clinton getting some on the side I'm not saying that there is not more but the vast amount is about those two things. I think this country and the way people think and judge is going down hill and pretty soon there will be really bad people running the white house.People are wanting someone in there with very questionable associates. When Clinton was in office things were a lot better you can deny it all you want but if you look in your heart and get past all this bitterness you will see that. So I will end this letter and say once more if you want a president for the people vote Hillary Clinton. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

One more thing I've been at dinners with people that had money and or position and had to act like a lady and use good manners and I've been to keg parties where I could let my hair down and say what I wanted to. If anyone watched the debate did anyone see Obama give Hillary the finger I'm sorry you don't touch your cheek with you middle finger plus he brushed imaginary lint off his shoulder both was very very tacky and very unbecoming of his position but he got away with it.He was saying to Hillary fu@f you and brushing her off like she was nothing.Jean

Leah said...

Yes Obama belonged to a church for 16 years. The church did many good works in the community: helping AIDS victims, homeless, children after-school programs, etc. I believe him when he says that he was not in the church on the days that the three or four comments that FoxNews ran over and over in a loop. Obama did say that there were other controversial things he heard but not those particular comments. A person is not responsible for everything another person says. And a church is more than its pastor. A church is the community.

Hillary's health-care plan will FORCE everyone to purchase health-care and if you do not purchase it then you will be FINED or it will taken out of your paycheck! Just like now in Massachusetts people are FINED. Obama's plan does not penalize the American people. Obama's plan will make it more affordable and help subsidize people that can not afford it but he will not fine people.

Hillary has not ever said 'I am sorry' for the Bosnia lie. She has said that she wishes she had not 'worded' it the way she did. Which basically means that she wishes she had not gotten caught. I have not heard her say to the Bosnians or the American troops that were in Bosnia at that time that she is 'sorry'.

Gov. Rendell (Hillary supporter) praised Farrakhan for his good works. The video is all over YouTube. But Hillary tries to smear Obama with a Farrakhan connection via Rev. Wright... that is just not the right thing to do.

Senator Obama did not give Hillary the finger - he was scratching his face - period!

countjellybean said...

Aunt Jean wrote:
When Clinton was in office things were a lot better

Well, I did vote for the guy twice, and I do agree with that statement.

The problem for me is that Hillary Clinton has not embraced any of the things that her husband did that helped bring about that prosperity. Things like triangulation, tight monetary policy, the re-appointment of Alan Greenspan, NAFTA, welfare reform, and those famous phrases "new Democrat" and "the era of big government is over".

To be fair, Barak Obama hasn't embraced them either.


Btw, the previous discussion on mean, median and mode averages reminded me of a Supreme Court case that states that markets are efficient. Unfortunately, the economic theory that the decision is based upon, the Efficient Market Hypothesis, has three forms--the strong form, the weak form, and the semi-strong form--and the Court did not specify which form governs. It's kind of an important question because it determines how easily a shareholder can bring a lawsuit against a corporation. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Aunt Jean said...

Leah there is one Big difference between Clinton and Obama supporters. We know her faults and Obama supporters ignore his and think that he is perfect. I'm sorry he shot her the bird. About the insurance if you knew anything about Hillary's health care plan you would know this: she wants there to be a cap on what the insurance companies can charge plus give gov. help to people that can't afford it.Yes she wants to make it where everyone has insurance I don't see anything wrong with that.Also I guess you are blind and deaf when it comes to hearing Hillary say something. She did say that she was wrong and knew that what she said about Bosnia was not true.That she shouldn't have said that and she was sorry. Listen next time and get your fingers out of your ears when shes talking.Obama is a total UNCOUTH person just because you supporters follow him blindly doesn't mean every one is blind and deaf.GO HILLARY and beat him Jean

Leah said...

Bill Clinton was not responsible for the DOT COM boom in the 90's - he was just lucky that he was president at the time. If Hillary gets into the White House she will not be able to replicate the same economy that was taking place at the time that Bill was in there.

People should think about that a little bit.

You can't go backwards... it is time to go forward!

NO MORE BUSHES and NO MORE CLINTONS! This is America and we need a new leader with new ideas.

Leah said...

Aunt Jean-

Apparently you have not read Senator Obama health care plan. He also will make health care affordable, he will give a reduction of $2,500 per family per year, people will not be excluded because of pre-existing conditions, and the government will help those that can not afford it.
The only difference is that under his plan you will not be FORCED to purchase it and your PAYCHECK will NOT be garnished if you decide not to purchase it.

We don't need government forcing American citizens to hand over more of our money against our will! This is America!

If Hillary wants to live in a socialistic country then she should move to one and not try to turn America into one!

Aunt Jean said...

Leah people like you and the rest of the obama supporters are going to be the cause of the down fall of America as we know it. You follow obama so blindly. Well you and the others ARE FOOLS. He is the son of satan if I've ever seen one and pigs and don't even think for one second that I would be sorry in saying that BECAUSE I"M NOT I see him for what he is and I don't have rose colored glasses on like you do. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

Obamas health plan will cause insurance to sky rocket da that $2500 is a drop in the bucket.Wake up and get your brain cells to working. Jean

Leah said...

Aunt Jean-

You are the rudest person I have ever seen online. When you can't articulate what you want to say or others disagree with you you resort to name calling and lose any credibility you might of had.

I do not follow Senator Obama blindly. I realize that ALL people have their faults. But I do not judge people as harshly as you apparently do without having any substantiating facts.

God will be the judge, I will pray for you.

Aunt Jean said...

Leah how old are you, you sound very young. Of course you will probably lie about your age because you want people to believe that you have been there and done that and it takes years for that to happened.By the way I'm 54, born 06-19-53 Jean

Somerled said...

Y'know... I finally realized where I've heard Yamaka before! It's 'Tokyo Rose'. She would say things like 'This is for all you GIs whose wives and girlfriends are cheating on you tonight.' Total propaganda machine to demoralize U.S. troops in WWII. What a coincidence, she was on the losing side too.

Here's To Ya!

Somerled said...

I don't know, aspiring to work for the next four years in the offices where your husband had an illicit affair may not be a 'fault' per se, but eeewwww.

Cigar Anyone?

dwit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Amot said...

Jean, have you ever lived under UHC the way Hillary thinks of it? I guess no! I have lived both Hillary's and Obama's version - no need to say which one I prefer! When you all talk about things like that, better ask someone experienced! You are talking about two future options, about possible virtual realities. Those are past realities for other people, ask them! In USA there is absolutely no way that Clinton's plan can work. Fortunately she won't have the chance to torture you with her vision!

Aunt Jean said...

Leah you are the one that is rude just like most obama supporters all you have to do is resd the post. I'm just telling it like I see it. I believe in my heart what I said is true it's you who has the problem. Oh yea I don't need you to pray for me I pray everyday that you obama supporters will wake up and smell the roses before it's to late.I just gave you a little taste of what you obama supporters have been shoveling our way for a while how does it feels not very good is it!!! Jean

dwit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hillary Clinton said...

Aunt Jean - you are so not fun. Go away. You miss the point -- it must be over your head.

dwit said...

Aunt Jean,

Not sure age matters much when it comes to good Judgment. Look at both McCain and Clinton--two seniors who voted with Cheney and Bush (also seniors) on the War. If age determined wisdom Ronald Reagan should have been the GREATEST president. I think we can all agree he was mediocre to disastrous.

Aunt Jean said...

Amot here goes again! O B A M A'S plan is just a little different than Hillary's who do you think he got it from. I don't know where you are from and I don't really care but most people are trying to compare it to Canada it won't be a GOVERMENT insurance it will still be private insurance. She just thinks that everyone should have insurance and frankly I do too. Just some people will need help paying for it. Jean

Somerled said...

C'mon folks, this is escalating WAY to far. Look, Bill may have had his dalliances, but by june 3, Hillary is gonna get screwed hard by a black man. Who says there's no justice in the world?

Aunt Jean said...

Yes Clinton voted for the war so what it was based on info that was given. Obama said that he's voted against the war he didn't even have a vote on [LIE] it's real easy to say I would vote against it when you weren't even there.So give me a break. Grow up!!! Hillary clinton I reaklly don't know why you have that name other than to be rude go away little girl. Jean

Aunt Judy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Aunt Judy said...


I couldn't agree more. I've been wondering why she keeps comparing herself to Rocky. Yamaka keeps using the same Rocky reference. The way I remember the Rocky movie was that the black man won.

Still, she wants PA's to think of her as Rocky?

Amot said...

Jean, I don't talk Canadian version! I have really live both Clinton and Obama ways. And difference is not that small. Not small at all. BTW when we talk about left policy, on health he is the moderate, she is the liberal. And you shouldn't do what Hillary constantly does - talking about age equals experience and better knowledge. There is nothing wrong about liking Hillary, you just have to accept most people don't! Maybe after all it has something to do with the personality; it is way too easy to blame MSM for all the hits she has taken... Relax, she can make another try for the WH in 2016 - she will be younger than McCain is today!

Aunt Jean said...

somerled I think you are living in a dream world and if by some small chance that obama steals the nomination McCain will beat his pants off lol lol lol.. Jean

Somerled said...


Rocky...? Nah, I'm thinkin' more like Bullwinkle.

Leah said...

Aunt Jean -

Although it is none of your business I am not young, I am a 48 year old white woman and I am not a woman hater.

Also, I do not believe that I am the person on this blog that has been rude. I have not called people names like you have on several occasions.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has the right to post their opinion on this blog but it does not mean that you have a right to call people names or a right to be rude. If you wish for people to listen to you then I would suggest trying a more kinder approach in the future.

Thank you.

Somerled said...


Obama is the frontrunner. Neither you nor Hillary will find any delegates in dreamland, but keep trying.

Aunt Jean said...

It's amazing that there is very little if any difference between the popular votes for obama and Hillary. If it was done like the republicans do it would be over with and Hillary would WIN count them up if you don't believe me.I really don't care if you believe me are not. Not only that he has received a hell of a lot of votes from blacks didn't matter if they liked him or not it was the fact that he was black. I know what you are going to say [that there were women that voted for Hillary because she is female will let me tell you something I also think that they took into consideration what she said so don't try and give me that crap that obama is more popular. THAT IS SO MUCH BS. Jean

Somerled said...

The REALLY sad part is that none of the democrats related to Bill Clinton have been able to see him for the liability that he is. He cost Al Gore in '00. If John Kerry had openly denounced him in 2004 more people would've voted for him. Here in 2008 I think Hillary would've won it in a walk if she'd dumped that scumbag like she should've. Bill will bring the base, but the middle is what wins it and the middle still, so far, doesn't like it when you desecrate the Oval Office. Couldn't he get a room???

Aunt Jean said...

Leah you must be a very funny person then about your age I don't believe you your thought process is to young.or either you have been protected all your life and never really lived in the real world. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

Clinton didn't cost Gore the white house it was the republican courts that cost him the WH.Jean

Leah said...



Pledged Delegates:

Obama 1416
Clinton 1253

Super Delegates:
Obama 231
Clinton 255


Obama 1647
Clinton 1508

Popular vote does not count BUT by some estimates, with the caucuses included, Obama leads in popular votes by ONE to TWO MILLION votes!

Contests won:

Obama 30
Clinton 14

So anyway you look at it OBAMA is ahead! And will still be ahead even if he loses Pennsylvania.

Somerled said...

Were it not for Clinton it would never have seen the courts. Popular vote should win anyway and Gore had that.

Leah said...

Aunt Jean-

I don't care if you believe me or not and I do not appreciate you insinuating that I am untruthful. I am 48 years old and I have stated that fact several times before you ever posted on this website. As far as I am concerned you are not worth my time to respond to any longer. And I would suggest to the other posters that you have offended in the past 24 hours to also ignore any of your future posts.

Somerled said...

This country is ready to elect a woman. If one ever shows up, we'll vote for her.

Leah said...


I agree America is ready for a female leader. I really would like to vote for a woman for president in my lifetime. BUT that woman will have to be a person of integrity, honesty, wisdom, and intellect AND would have gotten to where she is on her own without getting there on the coattails of her husband.

I hope that all the damage that Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton has done will not make it harder for our next female candidate.

Aunt Jean said...

obama has won many states for the simple fact the media treats him or most do like he's a god [gross]. Name me besides Ill.big state he has won you can't. Missouri Hillary won all the state except st louis and enough one I can't remember the name to be honest I would call for a recount in that state because it's so close.Leah what I was talking about is someone said that Hillary was unpopular that is what I was refering to.Jean

Somerled said...


No problem. The American people are usually a pretty good judge of character. Bush not withstanding. :-) I am a reformed republican and I feel certain that whoever she is will win in a LANDSIDE.

dwit said...

Jean said...

"If it was done like the republicans do it would be over with and Hillary would WIN count them up if you don't believe me."

I realize you Clinton folks would like us to be more like Republicans, but that is exactly what Americans are running from at full speed.

This is Hillary's main problem. The myth of the middle is that it is somewhere to the right. Most Americans are progressive minded. This is the REAL middle.

Clinton and Bush have used fear very effectively to fool Americans into believing only the "right" can protect us. I was sickened by the ads Clinton ran in Pennsylvania which highlighted Bin laden and Iraq. Right out of old uncle Karl's playbook.

But, those days are over. They have cried wolf for far too long. The jig is up Jean/Yamakarl et al.

It is progressives that will protect this country though vigorous diplomacy and an abolition of preemptive war.

Somerled said...

Yeah, what dwit said.

Somerled said...

But I say again. IF Hillary won, when heads of state, congressmen, etc. walked into the oval office they would look at her, but all they would see is Bill getting his pipes cleaned...

Aunt Jean said...

Leah you know what pisses me off about people like is you think you are so self rightious get off your high horse and live in the real world. I have been reading the insults and threats and ugly ugly words about Hillary for months now. I tell you just like I see it and dish out some of the garbage that you obama supporters do and I'm called names what's the matter you can dish it out but can't take it sounds just like obama does.So if you want to ignore me that great no skin off my nose. Jean

Leah said...

List of 30 contests won by Obama (including TEXAS):


White 48 year old DEMOCRATIC woman for OBAMA!

p.s. Democrats play by the democrat's rules set by the DNC! And we don't care about how the republicans do it! So, Bill Clinton if you don't like the rules go on over to the republicans!

Somerled said...


Those 'ugly, ugly words' are the truth. A good start is learning to know it when you see it.

Cigar Anyone?

Aunt Jean said...

If you lay with dogs you get fleas. All I was saying was if states counted the way republican count Hillary would have won by now.I can see where you have the same train of thought as obama. But it a one way ticket to HELL.Jean

Leah said...

Aunt Jean -

You have been on THIS website for less than 48 hours. There were NO insults or threats, etc. in the posts until you showed up. I believe in giving people second chances, so if you are willing to bring down your angry a notch or two then we can all try to get along here. You shouldn't judge THIS website by the experiences that you have had on other websites.

Somerled said...

You gonna have that asbestos suit tailored Jean or go with the 'one size fits all'?

Aunt Jean said...

So if I say ugly words it's not the truth about Obama give me a frigging break. He's a lousy sob and bigot and you know it. Jean

Leah said...


The DNC set the rules for the democratic nomination.

Obama has been playing by the rules.

Obama has been going after delegates which are proportional.

If Obama had been playing by the rules like the republicans then his STRATEGY would have been different.

You can not say here are the rules you play by ... and then compare the results to IF the rules were different. That is like comparing apples and oranges. Obama and Hillary have had the same rules to play by and like it or not he is ahead. It has nothing to do with race or gender or the media. Hillary was basically called the winner by the media before the race began - and it was Obama's skill at organizing that enabled him to take the lead.

Somerled said...

Maybe... COULD be... but he is NOT married to Bill Clinton and that's why she has already lost. I mean geez... talk about sobs!

dwit said...

Good luck with that Hil...er, uh Jean. If you are the face of what a Clinton administration might look like, I know I made the right decision at our primary.

I hope Pennsylvanians are taking a good look too. It looks like more of the same old Washington coming from Hillary. Be prepared for a surprise tomorrow. All it took for me was a car ride to my polling place and I had changed my vote to Obama based on just this issue.

Do we want 4 more years of kind of different, but not really? I'm ready for SIGNIFICANT change. I am confident Pennsylvanians will make the wise decision.

Aunt Jean said...

All Ican do is pray that they make the right decision and vote for Hillary.By the way I forgot my n in sob. I meant to say snob I know you people thought I meant a SOB but of I meant I would have put it in cap letters. Jean

Leah said...

Here's a good one:


Amot said...

Somer, Bush won his two terms because he was the strongest candidate in the field of moral and family values (I can't imagine him being the strongest candidate in any other area)! Clinton is the weakest possible candidate on that field and you cigar question will be raised zillions of times. In any normal family they would have divorced a decade ago. And I don't won't to see her sitting in the same office where he... Majority of voters thinks the same! Any other qualified woman would have my unquestionable backing and support!

Jean, talking about dogs and fleas - 'who let the dogs in?'

Now about votes - isn't that amazing that at one moment Clntonites scream loud 'Every vote must count, no matter they broke the rules!' On the very next moment they say caucus states don't count. And a moment later they say - 'if we only had the winner-takes-it-all rule'! What about 'every vote counts' I thought that was the basic Democratic rule they mention all the time! Am I the only one to see the contradiction? In winner-takes-it-all 40-50-60% of the votes don't count! Blame me for being stupid, but I can't get it.....

ed iglehart said...

What might the superdelegates think about this?

Hillary obviously hasn't looked at Iran on Google Earth or checked the
CIA fact book

Iran has some of the most difficult terrain in the world and is more than twice the size of Iraq, which we seem to have some difficulty controlling.....but with nukes, who cares?


Yamaka said...

Aunt Jean:

I tip my hat to you, Ma'm.

You single handedly take these BHO people. Bunch of retarded weaklings!

Awesome. God Bless You.

Aunt Jean said...

I think that states should do away with caucus. The caucus in my area in Texas was a joke. There are a lot of women and older people that cannot stay for hours on in to vote in a caucus so it's very unfair. Obama let the dog in and has fleas.Then there is Leah saying count the people at caucus they should be counted if that is all they do but Texas has a vote so they should be counted twice I don't think. As far as the cigar that so juvenile but I've noticed that Obama supporters usually stay on that level.As far as divorceing Bill the way I see it it's really none of anyones busy why she stayed with Bill. I always believed that you stay in a marriage and try and work it out. I guess you obama supporter have a different view of marriage and working things out. Or you just have different expections for Hillary because you have to dog her about something all the time and it's real easy to dog her about Bill. Whats the matter with the men and women in this world damn if you do and damn if you don't there is no please some people. Obama supporters just want to sling garabge and old old news.Hillary has been fighting for and getting a lot done for the American but you don't give her credit for ANYTHING.It's very said for humun being to drop so low that they forget what it's like to make mistakes it says in the bible he who has not sinned cast the first stone.She has morals you had better look at your guys his is very questionable. Yes I'm judging him and I shouldn't if I quote from the bible it's just that hers is about morals and his is about unsavory friends and associates theres a big big different.Jean

Aunt Jean said...


ed iglehart said...

"It's amazing that there is very little if any difference between the popular votes for obama and Hillary."

Except that, as in most measures, the difference is in favour of Obama.

Aunt Jean said...

I think that states should do away with caucus. The caucus in my area in Texas was a joke. There are a lot of women and older people that cannot stay for hours on in to vote in a caucus so it's very unfair. Obama let the dog in and has fleas.Then there is Leah saying count the people at caucus they should be counted if that is all they do but Texas has a vote so they shouldn't be counted twice I don't think so. As far as the cigar that's so juvenile but I've noticed that Obama supporters usually stay on that level.As far as divorcing Bill the way I see it it's really none of anyone's busy why she stayed with Bill. I've always believed that you stay in a marriage and try and work it out. I guess you obama supporter have a different view of marriage and working things out. Or do you just have different expections for Hillary because you have to dog her about something all the time and it's real easy to dog her about Bill. What's the matter with the men and women in this world damn if you do and damn if you don't there is no pleasing some people. Obama supporters just want to sling garabge and old old news.Hillary has been fighting for and getting a lot done for the American people but you don't give her credit for ANYTHING.It's very sad for humun beings to drop so low that they forget what it's like to make mistakes, it says in the bible he who has not sinned cast the first stone.She has morals you had better look at your guys now his is very questionable. Yes I'm judging him and I shouldn't if I quote from the bible it's just that hers is about morals and his is about unsavory friends and associates there's a big big difference.Jean

jpsedona said...

Aunt Jean,

I agree with you relative to caucuses, the parties should ultimately do away with them. And what the heck is texas doing with both a primary and a caucus on the same day. Here's my thoughts why caucuses should go the way of the hanging chad:

1) Lower participation rates
2) Disproportionate representation (e.g. money controls the results in IA)
3) Popular vote comparisons are like apples and oranges
4) Arguments about who leads in popular vote are skewed because states with caucuses are lower
5) Caucuses are often part of a multi-tiered delegate selection process. Vote in a primary and have it 'final'.

jpsedona said...

Aunt Jean,

Since you are old enough to remember, if you liked Richard Nixon, you'll love Hillary!

If you like intrigues, enemy lists, and secretive administrations, yes, vote for her. If you want a candidate who says that if elected, they'll get you out of a war and then extend it for another 6-7 years, Hillary's your gal!

ed iglehart said...


(from the "wrong" thread):"I'll bet Ed is fond of President Carter for his positions on the Israel/Palestine debate, but I'd like to offer an additional support for his honesty. Grab the book "The Long Emergency" by James Howard Kuntsler"

You're right. I love Carter's candor as demonstrated in the linked BBC video. I am also a long-time fan of Kunstler (isnn't that yet another Jewish name? ;-)) and of the Orion Society, whose advisory board contains many of my heroes.

I am also a fan of Wendell Berry and his politics.

"...our country is not being destroyed by
bad politics, it is being destroyed by a bad way
of life. Bad politics is merely another result."

-- Wendell Berry (http://www.brtom.org/wb/berry.html)


RobH said...

Aunt Jean,

"Obama supporters just want to sling garabge.." but your not slinging.....

"It's very sad for humun beings to drop so low" but you're not going low......


There a lot of thoughtful, well-mannered, civil people on this thread, trying to discuss the pro’s and con’s of the candidates they support, and the process at hand. They are Clinton supporters and Obama supporters as well as the rogue Republican operative. We have our differences of opinion, but we’ve kept it civil. Even had some fun.

You’ve come crashing in here, leading with name-calling. I believe you might have had bad experiences on other sites, and mistakenly attributed them, here.
Maybe I'm wrong.

I’d ask you to go back and read through 800 posts and learn for yourself the esteem with which Leah, in particular, was held ,on this post, before you arrived her and commenced trashing her. I believe she was nominated for Secretary of State – for her DIPLOMACY.

Please respect the dignity of this discourse. If you can not, please demonstrate how your flame throwing contributes to the discourse. Thank you.

jpsedona said...

dwit "Not sure age matters much when it comes to good Judgment. Look at both McCain and Clinton. Two seniors who voted with Cheney and Bush (also seniors) on the War. If age determined wisdom Ronald Reagan should have been the GREATEST president. I think we can all agree he was mediocre to disastrous."

To be accurate, most of the public polls as well as rankings by presidential historians put Reagan in the top 10 presidents consistently. C-Span's poll about 10yrs ago (a generally more informed poll of viewers) had him at like 6 or 7.

Aunt Jean said...

First i want to apologize for the 2 posts with almost the same words I tried to delete the first one but couldn't been up all night and very tired couldn't sleep. Now for something else no I didn't like Nixon very much.That is laughable that you think Hillary would let the war go on for enough 6 or 7 years. What I'm afraid of is obama getting in there and having all these unsavory friends and associates in there. Just think he might know someone that if he doesn't like someone to get rid of them. He has some really bad friends starting with wright I don't want that white hating gd america, the gov. is trying to get rid of blacks with the aids virus to go near the white house since how he feels has finally come out. The white House belongs to America so it belongs to me too.Just because you are blind doesn't mean I am too I have my eyes and ears wide open and right now they are watching that bigot obama like a hawk. I know that there is more to come out about him it's just a matter of time. It gets worst and worst.He is nothing but TRASH.It's more than amazing that you can't see him for the trash he is.I guess to you having those kind of friends and associates is ok well not to me do you have some like that and if you do what does that say about you. Jean

ed iglehart said...

Sorry folks, a bad link corrected.

“...in pre-industrial country towns and city neighborhoods, the people
who needed each other lived close to each other. This proximity was free,
and it provided many benefits that were either free or comparatively
cheap. This simple proximity has been destroyed and replaced by
communications and transportation industries that are, again, enormously
expensive and destructive, as well as extremely vulnerable to disruption.”
Wendell Berry. “Search for Common Ground.” Home Economics, 1987.

And, from myself before reading the above:

Decades ago,
We mostly walked to work,
Side by side with friends & neighbours
We worked and walked together,
Ate, drank, fought, loved & raised the young together,
Grew old, returned to local soil together.

Now it's better,
We have improved communications,
Roads & hyperspace, phones, TV, & cyberspace,
Keep us 'in touch' with world events,
Our glazed & insulated capsules keep us safe and warm,
And free from nosy, noisy, noisome neighbours.


RobH said...


Another Kuntsler book, "The Geography of Nowhere" is an important treatise on the limitations and risks posed by
American suburban sprawl and our compulsive motoring. I highly recommend it. He weaves it thoughtfully into "The Long Emergency." While its specific issues (TGON, that is) are not applicable in Scotland, Scotland will still be affected if American behavior changes the game for us all.

RobH said...

Aunt Jean says:


And this helps, how?

ed iglehart said...

Kunstler's website is a good place to start.

Thanks Rob, for bringing him up.

Salaam/Shalom, etc

Aunt Jean said...

So what you are saying is if an obama supporter wants to throw out remarks like the cigar and clinton supporters is living in a dream world making up stories that clinton did this and that is ok but if I have a problem with his morals I should just keep my mouth shut. As far a Leah she has made some remarks that I didn't like and frankly I really don't care what she does she needs to get off her high and mighty and quit trying to act like she is better than some one else.You can tell this is mostly an obama site by most of the things that are said. God forbid if someone tell you how they feel about him but you can trash Hillary well thats a 2 way street. Jean

ed iglehart said...

And, while we're on matters
, here's Ivan Illich, in 1975,
"The model American male devotes more than 1,600 hours a year to his car. He sits in it while it goes and while it stands idling. He parks it and searches for it. He earns the money to put down on it and to meet the monthly installments. He works to pay for gasoline, tolls, insurance, taxes, and tickets. He spends four of his sixteen waking hours on the road or gathering his resources for it. And this figure does not take into account the time consumed by other activities dictated by transport: time spent in hospitals, traffic courts, and garages; time spent watching automobile commercials or attending consumer education meetings to improve the quality of the next buy. The model American puts in 1,600 hours to get 7,500 miles: less than five miles per hour. In countries deprived of a transportation industry, people manage to do the same, walking wherever they want to go, and they allocate only 3 to 8 per cent of their society's time budget to traffic instead of 28 per cent....."
and Henry Thoreau in 1854.


dwit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yamaka said...

Good Morning Fellow Democrats. It is a very cloudy day in Houston.

Here is Part III of my Conversation with Sen BHO:

- Good Morning, Senator.

- Hi, Yama. What's up, man.

- Senator, the WSJ wrote a piece on your Financial Muscle. You have raised 235 million dollars so far. How did you do this? Largely, you are an unknown person to most of America, unlike the Clintons?

- Yama, Good Question. Listen, I told you about my BMGs -the BigMoneyBags - they are all over the world, from Libya, North Korea, Kenya, Iran, Syria and everywhere! Oh, I forgot Oprah, Clooney and other bleeding liberals in the Hollywood, and all. These people are the most unscrupulous fellows you can imagine. They all have a common purpose of undermining America's Will, plus they are Arch Enemies of Clintons, who during 1990 cut the toes of these people for transgression and excess. So, they all gang up on them through me. I am the Puppet in the hands my Puppet Masters. Oh... Yama... I am getting tired easily these days. I need my nicotine shot. W/o the shot I will be a dead man soon. Give me sec. Let me take a nicotine gum!

- Very well Senator! Tell me about your 30 States Win and how significant it is?

- Oh, Yama.. You know the story. It is a matter of deception, deceit and strategy, as my sidekick Axelrod tells me. The 30 States are very small Caucus States, mostly. My IL is the largest as far as the Electoral Vote goes. You see, Rocky won 14 mostly very Large Blue States with tons of EVs. Only EVs matter, at the end of the day. In the big bellies of CA and NY you can stuff all my small peanut Caucus States, still there will be room! Knowing this, we still will blather about "Most States Won" mantra. That's for deceiving my Children-the Supporters and to some extent to cheat my BMBs, the great Money Launderers in the world! You know you Pig Yama, with all the victories under my belt, I have only 198 EVs and Rocky has 263! That's why I am very sad these days, as Joe Klein that "Anonymous "Book" guy found out. Yama,, I have silver tongue,, and all that nonsense...hmmm but I don't have the EVs. That is the cause of my despair. I spent tons and tons of money, but my return is worst than Bear Stearn's! Oh,, Yama, the Pig.. I am the most unhappy fellow so far in my life!!

- Senator, there is hope. You can change the course of your life... you know that. You can be the Master of Your Destiny. Call Maestro Bill Clinton, and take the VP position. That will make you very very happy. Believe me, Sen.

- Oh Ya! But my BMBs will kill me! Whether I need my life or my happiness?

- Senator, just show them your finger, as you did to Rocky! You know how to behave. Try, Senator.

- Yama.. I know I keep cursing you. But you are the only guy who tells me the truth as it is, all others are deceiving me, including Michelle. I get angry when people cut my knees under me. Yama..after PA, where I hope to get my nose bleed, I will give a ring to Bill. Promise... I can't take anymore hits!! I am losing my sanity. This scumbags BMBs don't realize how unhappy I have become in my Life. My nostalgia of days in Indonesia is making me happy a few seconds of everyday!

- Sen. good. thanks for your time. So long. I will talk to you after PA. Insha Allah we meet again.

_ My dear Yama, Insha Allah we will meet again. But still you are a swine! But I love swines!!

Cheers. Smile. :) :)

dwit said...


Again, I beg to differ. Here is a wiki with a broad spectrum of polls. Ronald Reagan is mentioned somewhere in the top 10 on most of them, but let's not forget he left office roughly 20 years ago. His star will fade with time, given his relatively few accomplishments.

He was also the "feel good" agent of change after nearly two decades of silly drunk with power democraps still riding FDR's coat tails.

You'll notice that a 2006 Quinnipiac poll asked respondents to rank the worst presidents of the last century and Reagan is ranked "8" out of 12. Even worse than Ford, who accomplished next to nothing in his short tenure.

I never put too much faith in polls, especially today, when most people under the age of 40 use mobile phones exclusively.


Jim said...

I have been reading this thread since it was created and I see a trend toward a great divide in the
Democratic Party.
Some supporters on each side are so
dedicated to thier candidate that would stoop to anything.
They are the lemmings leading others toward the cliff.
Does anyone care about the issues
and can they discuss them without
I am happy to discuss the facts
with anyone that will not throw in
stuff about Bill or his transgressions, Obama's preacher or underground friends.

ed iglehart said...




dwit said...


Regarding caucuses vs. primaries. I have thought about this for quite some time. In my state (Washington) we have both but only the Caucus counts.

At first I too was aghast that those who work non-traditional hours and days of the week (service industry folk etc.) would be denied access. We also need to consider seniors.

That is why I actually like the Texas system. It takes both primary and caucus into account. That satisfies both ends of the spectrum. The primary gives average people who may or may not be motivated to show up in November a chance to have their say. The caucus allows those who are highly motivated and who we can surely count on in November to hold some sway too.

Its states like Washington with only one method that are really watering down democracy.

dwit said...

Amen Jim! Not sure if you saw this article I posted a while back, but this guy nails it!


Yamaka said...

My Two Cents on Reform of the Primaries for the Next Cycle:

1. The date of the Primaries can be set by a fair and equitable way: Between Jan and Mar the Party can choose 5 Tuesdays or 5 weekends. Then by random Lottery take 10 States at a time and assign the dates one after the other. Once it is done, ask the Governor of each State sign a binding contract that they will not breach the order of the dates already determined by Lottery. Since it is done by Lottery no one knows who will go first, second, third, fourth and fifth batch etc. (the last batch will have DC and PR).

2. Since Primary Format is the format of the General Election, I prefer Primaries over Caucuses, which are very time consuming and open. Many women and older voters cannot afford to spend enormous time at the Caucuses. But to debate on issues etc. the Parties can have Conventions at Precinct/State Levels separately and invite people to attend and formulate the National Platform.

3. The Electoral College Methodology will be used in crunching Numbers. Winner-Takes-All is the methodology now, so use it.

This will finish the Primaries by the end of March, and we will have 7 months before the GE to prepare for it.


jpsedona said...


With regard to the Texas system, I would be far less opposed to that system IF voters were allowed to participate in one or the other. Something seems just plain wrong when as a voter, you can vote twice and delegates are awarded for both. One person, two votes doesn't seem quite rgiht to me.

jpsedona said...


Your proposal for primary reform is generally reasonable.

A lottery system for primaries would exclude nominees who can't bankroll themselves to face ten states right off the bat.

What happens if expensive media states like CA, NY, FL, TX turn out to be in the first group? Candidates like Bill Clinton would never have stood a chance. Only those party insiders with political connections ($$$) or deep pockets (e.g. Kerrey) will have a chance.

Those early smaller primaries / caucuses weed out the field. It also gives an unknown an opportunity to stand a chance. Compare Huckabee's success vs. Rudy on the Republican side.

The DNC wanted to have four geographically dispersed primaries / caucuses in order to identify the strength of candidates across a number of smaller states. I think this strategy of piloting a campaign in smaller states is still beneficial. maybe the lead-off states need to shift around, but I think dropping in the larger states for the first contest could be disasterous.

Yamaka said...

Remember, it is a Lottery system.

The chance of large States lumping together is very small.

IMO, this is better than the current chaos!

jpsedona said...

It looks like Bill "stepped in it again". He told WHYY in a radio interview yesterday that the Obama campaign had played the race card in SC and supported by Obama campaign memos.

When asked about it today by a local NBC station, he got angry and said that it was not what he said.

You can make up your own mind: Clinton Radio Interview

Jim said...

jp, Didn't take long for you to go negative. Is Bill running?

jpsedona said...


I agree, all of the states bunching up and trying to move so far forward in the campaign year is bad. What makes sense to me is to have states arranged / grouped from smallest to largest.

If you were to do that, then the 'best' candidates would be those still standing for the large primaries. Since the small states have fewer delegates, no one is at a significant disadvantage in a winner-take-all approach as you've proposed.

it also limits the need to be bankrolled if a state like CA with its huge media markets is up first. If you don't like the idea of the candidate with the most money being the nominee, you need to be able to provide a lesser known candidate to become known to the electorate. Otherwise, this will establish a aristocracy where only the richest or most well backed candidates can effectively compete.

Dave in NC said...

Greetings Yamaka

I agree that Obama is a Trojan Horse - full of average Americans! People who have had a tough time over 12 of the last 20 years and only faired a little better during the other 8.

Here we come across the Beltway and we're takin' back The House!

However, I contend that my man must be some kind of terrorist; he's got all the Clinton supporters so terrorized they are bitting like scared cats at a grooming shop. :)

BTW, I totally support everybody's right to support Clinton; we'll all be behind her if she happens to win the nomination. Just like we'll all be behind Obama if (when) he is nominated.

So I don't see any reason for personal attacks beyond good-natured humor.

I believe the trailer park banter is more a reflection of personality and status in life than an expression of political belief.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

jpsedona said...


Negative? No, I don't think so. I suggested that people can make up their own minds. In addition to the PA voting, this appears to be the lead political story of the day.

Yamaka said...

I am for less money in the campaign in total. But some people argue that money is the expression of their political right!

If we can arrange many Nationally Telecast in multichannel Debates before Each Batch of Super Tuesdays, the people will have a chance to see the candidates and their view of the world.

Of course, raising funds is the hardest thing. I don't know whether any mechanism can be their for public funding during Primaries?

I believe an over haul of the Primary Process is overdue, IMO.


ed iglehart said...

Jim, JP,

Speaking of Lead stories, where does this come in?

If it ain't the lead yet, it'll be up there sometime soon.


RobH said...

Ed at 11:39:

Seconded as well. Who knew, that when you departed yseterday evening, saying that you'd return with a garbage can, that you'd need a 40 yard dumpster. Wow, this thread went sour overnight. We've stopped hearing from some regular, valued contributors, and I fear they may have split. If so, that's too bad.

Yamaka and dwit and jp:

Some combination of your caucus/primary proposals sounds really promising.

How about if the lottery has packets for selection that are regionally coherent, so that we can get a mix with each set, or even a concentration with each set?

How about if the lottery has packets for selection that are based on size (and I agree w/ jp that it ought to be small to large so that a viable, but underfunded candidate is not locked out of the process)?

And dwit, you're the first person I've seen put in writing that the Texas two step has some merit. I happen to agree with you, though I'm not from Texas, so don't know how it could work. I also abide by jp's reservations that one person - two votes is ng.

I've thought since Texas that a system that brings forth the merits of both approaches (caucuses for activists and those deeply engaged, and primaries for those not so inclined), if it could be tabulated fairly, would be inherently comprehensive, and of the greates benefit for us all.

Jim said...

It sucked you in. The picture clearly shows light weight paper and the ballots are not on that paper.

Yamaka said...

dave in NC:

Thanks for your reply.

Humor is the right way of expressing your views more effectively, IMO!

Personally, I seldom engage in name calling of the individuals here - all are honorable people. Since many have called me as Pig and Swine - I have adopted it in a self deprecating way, for fun! lol

But I have a satirical way of describing the candidates, and the political personalities, and the processes: like BigMoneyBags, Empty Suit, Trojan Horse and Manchurian Candidate etc.

My "Conversation with Sen BHO" would reveal abundantly what I don't like in him!!

Our family is fully democratic and divided!

My wife is a hyper-educated girl leaning towards McCain

My daughter in Cornell U is for HRC, as I am very passionately; she thinks breaking open the Glass Ceiling is a nobler thing.

My son was an ardent admirer of BHO, as I was once (till Reno Interview); now he is saying BHO is just a Chicago politician, not a Messiah!. He may not even vote!!!

We tease each other, and laugh a lot every day. That's our life style!

Yamakas are bunch of loonies!

Cheers. :)

RobH said...

Sorry about that, my last slutation should heve bee:

Jim at 11:41, not Ed at 11:39.

Don't know what I was thinking. Jim, you're the guy who knew we'd need to bring a trash receptacle. My apologies for failing to give credit.

jpsedona said...

Ed, et al

There were a number of stories earlier today about problems with voting machines in Philly. MSNBC was reporting that only two voting machines were working at one polling place (perpetuating rumors?). In an MSNBC inetrview with an official in Philly, the offical indicated that there are always issues but early voting problems were resolved.

I doubt that after 6 weeks of campaigning in PA that campaigns would want any irregularities that exhaust even more time (and money) to contest election results.

Yamaka said...

As a Texan, I did not like the 2 vote system. I prefer simple Primary.

My experience last month at the Caucus was terrible. I was cursing all the time:

The Hall was full, no room for lots of people who came just after 7:15 pm. Many ladies and older voters left the Hall even before signing the Exhibit Sheet. And, there was a paid activist for BHO in three piece blue suit, who was trying to steal HRC's sheet, etc.

Pandemonium prevailed till mid-night!

Finally, after the SD13 Convention, our Precinct managed to get 1 delegate 1 Alt d to the State Convention!

I am very eager to know what will happen at the State on June 6th!

Stay tuned.


Dave in NC said...


Just to make clear, I wasn't accusing you of the name calling or referring to you with the trailer park comment. That was for the profanity users and name callers; and they know who they are...zxxkauntjeanxcmzj

ed iglehart said...

"The picture clearly shows light weight paper and the ballots are not on that paper."

Right enough, but it may also suck other folk in as well, and to whose potential benefit? It plainly calls itself a ballot, and says it's been paid for by the local democratic committee.

Some kind of funny business, for sure.

Salaam, etc.

Aunt Judy said...

Interesting that HRC folks don't want caucuses while BHO supporters do. Hmmm? Wonder why that is? Probably 'cuz HRD lost.

The experiece in area was quite a bit different then Yamaka's. I worked at the caucus and was a person who verified credentials and monitored the signature/sign-in/vote process. Most of the mayhem that was reported on in the news was due to the massive turn out. By comparison, my precinct only had 4 people show up for the 2004 caucus but the 2008 caucus had over 800 show up. During the night, I had HRC people try some funny business and also stopped some BHO people from some funny business. All in all, it was OK and very even handed. Sadly, we even had a person vote for John Edwards-who had dropped out by then! Duh! When everything was said and done, BHO won by about 60% vs. 40%.

My precinct was at an Elementary School so we had plenty of room. The number of delegate each precinct was awarded had to do with how many voters turned out at that precinct in the 2006 elections. Our precinct had a VERY high turnout in that election so we were awarded 40 delegates and 40 alternates for the State's Democratic Convention.

Did anyone else hear that Bill Clinton radio interview today. Listen closely, in the last 3 seconds you can hear him cussing. I think he thought the radio interviewer hung up the phone. MSNBC was talking about it earlier. Bill says something like play "the shitty race card" on me.

Aunt Judy said...


I think that might be a joke ballot. BHO isn't even listed, is he? Plus, I remember a story on the cable news about the computerized voting machines being used in PA are not hack proof and they didn't fix it before today's vote like they were ordered to do by some judge? Something like that but I can't remember exactly. For the past 6 weeks, listening to news about PA has started to sound a little bit like listening to Charlie Brown's teacher.

Amot said...

Regarding caucuses and primaries:
- caucusing is cheap, but not very fair. I could argue that people working also have difficulties caucusing compared to seniors. However I think the best is when you have a primary in your state don't turn it into beauty contest. That is TX and WA as far as I know... In Texas they don't vote twice they cast 2/3 of their vote in the primary and 1/3 in the caucus, but it is really a big mess and not necessary! To hold a party caucus when the state offers to pay for a primary is a mistake!

Yamaka, I have raised the idea for group voting in the primary season several times. However IMHO the best way to do it is to group 5-6 states with different size in one week. Like they do on FIFA World Cup finals. That will prevent TX and CA coming in one week. On the other hand dates are usually decided on state level, so the best way to make such a proposal work is to get the two party together and make a joined draw!

jpsedona said...

Aunt Judy,

Caucuses provide a unique experience and at a much more direct level than most voters ever experience. I think that thus year has been an engaging year for the Dems (which accounts for the record turnouts everywhere).

Given the level of apathy that elections have experienced in the past, I think that the more voters, the better. How much larger would the turnouts have been in caucus states if they had been primaries?

The other question is whether caucus voters are a accurate representation of voters in a state. Certainly the results in Tx would imply that the more fervent voters in the caucuses were Obama's. Do caucuses bring out the more extreme supporters? Certainly the opportunity to vote in a primary with polls open for 12 or more hours provides more than ample opportunity for someone who wants to participate to do so. Caucuses because of scheduled times may not allow some people to participate due to work, family, etc.

I certainly wouldn't take the position that Hillary would have changed the results from any caucus states if they were primaries, but I think that the primaries are a much better method to handle (and encourage) high participation. This is also one reason that PR switched from caucuses to a primary.

jpsedona said...


"I could argue that people working also have difficulties caucusing compared to seniors."

I haven't looked into the demographics of the various caucuses but wonder if there's a disproportionately higher number of seniors, why didn't Hillary do better since older women seem to be part of her core.

Amot said...

Well, I remember a lot of cases when people had to left caucus places to go at work without voting. On the other hand many caucuses took place in bad weather. That made them uneasy to attend for seniors. I think if caucuses were during summer seniors would actually participate in greater number than they participate in primaries. The winter made it equal. I think Obama won the most due to his better organisation and to Clinton neglecting caucus states. If she had put the same efforts I guess primaries and caucuses would be pretty much the same. Problem is she expected the race to be effectively over Feb 6th and when that didn't happen she could not make her mind fast enough to counterplay in caucus states coming. Plus her strategy is to insist only big and swing states matter. Maybe she is right that they matter the most, but not to participate in full strength in caucus states was a bad and serious mistake.

Amot said...

One more thought - caucus maybe great experience but it breaks the secrecy of the vote. I don't want to know how my neighbours voted, nor show them my preference. In a divided race that can cause local problems! Look at us - people that don't know each other! We sometimes hate each other! Imagine we lived next door! TX is the best example for surprising caucus results (I mean the southern regions). I believe in the secrecy of the vote! Actually where I live it's illegal to show your preference...

jpsedona said...


I agree with your analysis and conclussions. As a candidate, you really shouldn't complain or equivocate about caucuses if the reason you lost was because your strategy was bad.

On XM Radio today, Obama said: “If Senator Clinton gets over 50 percent she’s won the state, and I don’t try and pretend that I enjoy getting only 45 percent and that’s a moral victory. You’ve lost the state.”

I'm not sure that's what we'll hear from the Obama spin doctors tonight, but it should be.

jpsedona said...


In the polling booth it's you & your ballot. The opportunities for intimidation are minimal. And once you make it into the polling location, outside influences can be ignored.

In a caucus system, there are more opportunities for intimidation, brow beating and undue pressure.

Yamaka said...

FIFA type of pre-grouping is fine with me.

Confidential voting is a right of the electorate.

Some people say that the Election Season should not extend more than six months total: 3 months for Primaries, then after 3 months the GE should be over. Now, the season is too long, becomes a big circus.

More than any thing else, I am for reducing the influence of money (now it is going to cost half a billion dollars! Insanity has to limits!!) and General Election Methodology whatever it is. Simplify the procedure, plug all the loopholes!


mikeruthgis said...

Gee, the caucus that I attended (first time in my life, here in Washington state) was highly civil, people were polite and well spoken and passionate about their candidate, and it was extremely well managed overall.

And I knew a lot of people in the room, since we caucused by precinct. I've seen these extended neighbors since and we are still able to get each other excited about the election, even standing in line at the supermarket.

I have decided I trust caucuses, with their personal accountability more than primaries. The primaries in PA, for example, are on touch screen machines with no audit trail, no paper ballots, no way to verify if/whether you even voted! I'd say a caucus is a lot more transparent than an electronic primary.

vwis said...

I suspect that Hillary probably stuck with him to make him a better man. The one he wants to be. The one he told us he was. It was probably an easier row to hoe.
Although, I heard her say the other day that she would leave her church if the pastor preached a sermon like Rev. Wright. I was always lead to believe she had faith in God and still do. But, her words struck me as wrong. You talk about cafeteria Christians that only attend when the right meal is being served (or should it be Wright meal?] I have been lead to believe that the church is the body of Christ, what part of the body are you if you can be removed so easily? The Rev. is only one member of the church. Sermons are only part of his job. He may be a very good fund-raiser, or compassionate, visit the members in needs, a good counselor. It depends on your need. But, after serving on a Pastoral Com. I learned that sermons are less than 5% of what the do. One sermon is probably worse less than .1% if I dumped everyone who I disagreed with less than .1% of the time, I would be a hermit.
Just a thought. God bless.

Aunt Judy said...

Mike, I couldn't agree more with your comments about the voting machines and no audit trail. We have that same thing in Austin, TX where I live. Requires the user to be trusting of an election process that's anything but trustworthy.

Leah said...

The caucus I attended here in Houston - the first in my lifetime also was very organized and polite and no one intimidated anyone. The people running it were mixed Obama and Clinton supporters and the rules were followed.

There is less chance of cheating at a caucus than there is with electronic machines that do not have a paper back-up, imo.

And why is it that Clinton can not win caucuses but she can win when electronic voting machines are being used?

And what about those 80 districts in New York that had ZERO votes for Obama - has that ever been investigated? Even Mayor Bloomberg had said that that was obvious voting fraud.

Amot said...

I believe in paper ballots - you have accountability that way. It is not that fast to get the results but after 2 years campaigning what are 5-6 more hours?
Yamaka, I absolutely agree that election season should be shortened. But if we talk about money the cheapest method is to keep the Electoral College - otherwise candidates would have to campaign seriously in all states instead of 20 or so and that would double and tripple the money invested. I don't like it but it is cheap. I would prefer the popular vote nationwide winner... But it turns out that EC system is better in terms of money!

Caucus troubles - there were some, can give a lot of examples! Hopefully the vast majority of caucuses are polite ones. That NY thing - HA! Fishyyyyyyy! But such things happen both ways. When I was doing my ID research I found that Obama people cheated in Blaine county and that would make Clinton non-viable at the state convention! I'd like to think all those things come from local activists who want to help their candidate in each and every way! One question - shouldn't both campaigns have observers in every precinct?

dwit said...

That is a good point MikeR! The machines are a bit silly aren't they? The fact there is no paper receipt makes them completely unreliable.

Anonymous said...

McGovern could have been a great President but he became extreme left wing candidate.

Obama is another Mcgovern.

Replace “McGovern” with “MoveOn.org” and you’ve seized the essence of the Obama candidacy. He’s the most liberal U.S. senator, advocating tax increases on the “wealthy” and enjoying the support of Gov. Deval Patrick, Sen. Ted Kennedy, Kerry , and every 9/11 conspiracy kook.
While Hillary Clinton soundly beats McCain in Massachusetts in the new SurveyUSA poll, 56 percent to 41 percent, the Obama/McCain number is 48 percent to 46 percent, well within the margin of error.
Wake up America . You elected Duval Patrick , a role model for Obama . What did you get by electing somebody who promised change . What did we get.—the most mismanaged state in the nation.“We’ve already elected one inexperienced candidate running on a vague platform of hope in Massachusetts, and it’s not working out. This is a classic example of ‘Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.’

I, as a typical American want to know if Obama, a liberal community activist with little political or executive experience, is tough enough to face our enemies in a troubled world. The answer is a resounding NO NO NO! At least McGovern won Mass. Obama will lose even that state !!!

Democrats want a victory this year . With Obama we will get only defeat.

dwit said...


I haven't been paying attention to the news I guess. Where can I find a reliable story on the precincts that had "0" for Obama?

Yamaka said...

Oh Caucus Lovers:

Confidential voting is the RIGHT of the electorate. Many don't go to Caucus because it is NOT private!

If electronic machines are problem, have something with a paper-trail!

It's up to how rich is your County!

When HRC is winning large Primaries, the format of the GE she does NOT have any problem.

It is the serious problem to the Messiah! The Empty Suit!!

In a normal value system, Big States mean good, Small States mean not that good! It is NOT the other way around!

It is only with Twisted Minds!!

:) :)
