Sunday, October 26, 2008

Concerning Sami (2)

I did the whole groupy* thing yesterday and travelled to Johannesburg with a bunch of Oasis peeps, a few Minds Alive chaps, a few MSA peeps and some kids. I managed to convince the Great One to join me on Friday night so he and Yuraaz came along.

Before I continue - I watched Max Payne on friday night and I thought it was awful! Whats up with movies based on games. I blogged about this last year and my thoughts havent changed at all.

So we end up waiting a few hours at the Hilton because the guy with the bus couldnt take it out of his yard because of Mud and stuff. I must have missed Friday Nights Monsoon floods I think. So anyway - they got another bus for us so its all good. End of the day Oasis took us for free so i dont think I should bitch about this.

The drive itself was long. Painstakingly long. There were a few tv's in the bus but they were showing National Treasure on the screens so thank God I took my psp and Ipod. National Treasure just sucks ass. It was cold. Really really cold. And we were tired - Waseem and I spent the entire friday night playing Call of Duty 4 and TNA impact so we probably got an hour of sleep before getting to the Hilton.

(Had a pic here but I removed it as you cant read the writing so its pointless)

We get to the Coca Cola Dome around helf eight or so, and I was surprised to see just how many people actually pitched up. I'm lucky in that I experienced the show in Durban so i could compare it to the JHB one.
The first thing I noticed was that it took a while for the crowd to start singing along. Its not like people didnt know the words (it picked up later) I gues there was an initial hesitation thats natural. The biggest thing for me is that while I enjoyed the show again, I wasnt moved spiritually at all this time around. And I discussed this with a few bloggers after the show, and I realised why the first show had such an impact on me - it was because I was sitting next to my dad. No disrespect to the guys I was next to, the MSA guys from Durban are a wonderful lot - we got our Salaahs at every stop, as soon as we reached the Coca Cola Dome we read Esha, no one was messing around in the back of the bus (it wasnt like we were supervised or anything) but it hadnt moved me like the Durban show. I think if my dad was next to me again, I would have been moved. Its like this for everything I guess. The year my parents went for Haj, the Eid salaah wasnt the same. I think this is why its important I find a partner who benefits me spiritualy (as well as give me amazing sex)
Nonetheless it was a wonderful show. I was uncomfortable in Durban when a bunch of people went up to the front and started clapping, and I was more uncomfortable when I saw the same thing happen in Johannesburg. It wasnt so much the numbers (more people in arena hence proportionately more people going to the front) but rather the other things that were happening. A girl gave Sami a rose and he took it, smelt ot kissed it (im not sure) and then put it on his Piano. I discussed this with a friend on the way back and she said that it just perpetuated this 'pop-culture superstar' mentality that I feel needs to be removed from these sorts of events. She said he should have ignored the girl with teh rose. I said he should have taken it and given it to one of the band members - drummer was too cool - he should have got it) I see similar things happening in Pakistan with Uwais Qadri. There is benefit to attending his Naath programmes, but I am worried that we are putting these performers on a pedestal, and by constructing them as Superstars we are destroying the point of all of this. With Uwais - lots of young guys are now donning the Turban (which is a Sunnah of our beloved Prophet peace and blessings be upon him) but at the same time - its what Fuzail likes to call the Bling Bling Turban - with fancy beadwork and whatnot. Another distressing point is somethign my friend pointed out to me yesterday - that now Imams are signed on to recording labels and because of that, everything must go through their managers. She experienced this at a conference in London when she wanted to interview a respected scholar. What is this? I disagree with Celebrity mentality. Do we blame society for creating this, or do we blame promoters for constructing individuals as superstars? Concerning Sami - I maintain that he is a wonderful chap, and was very humble when I spoke to him. Something to think about.
I think we are struggling with semantic issues. Is it Islam and entertainment, Islamic entertainment. Entertainment in Islam? Muslim entertainment? Is there a place for entertainment in Islam? Recently we have seen an emergence of nasheed as an alternative to mainstream music. Also - we now have Muslim comedy shows and other things. Now, entertainment in the Muslim world must not be seen as something new per se just because we havent read up or explored the history of this. I will do an entire blog on this once I feel I have read up sufficiently on it.
I am pleased that the people who comment on my posts do so intelligently and respect another commenters.
This is what I would have done if I was Oasis
1. There were salaah facilities available, so the MC should have pointed it out to the folks
2. I would have got a Muslim comedian as the opening act (ive mentioned this in my last post how I didnt like Murugen at all)
3. I would have kept the band - I have no issues with that
4. I'm also cool with clapping ( I mentioned this in two previous blogs - Fatwa from Shaykh Salman Al Ouda) but I would have asked people not to come to stand in the front, or at the very least intermingle.
5. We need to know our limits - so I would have asked people not to hold up lighters (there is benefit in clapping and singing along - but no benefit in holding up a lighter. Moderation is the key.)
6. I would have had the vote of thanks after the last track, or if I was scared of losing the crowd I would have got someone more eloquent to deliver it. The Oasis guy on stage really needs to learn public speaking.
7. Kudos to Oasis for putting jugs in the toilets. Ten points for this.
I have avoided discussing the whole 'Music is Haraam' issue and I have done so intentionally. I have mentioned it numerous times on my blog, however, if someone is interested on the ruling I follow, I will post the issues up on my comments page.
The whole Sami Yusuf thing has shown me that we still have alot of work to do when it comes to engaging which each other. I believe in the MJ benefit theory, and I also believe that if one has doubt in something after researching it and consulting their respective ulema, then its best to abstain. If it is an issue where there is difference of opinion amongst the fuquhah - like music, or photography for instance - one should respect the views of other Ulema. I think the Ulema also need to have respect for one another when engaging in issues where there is difference of opinion. I do not want anyone to misinterpret me, there are some issues which are clear cut - you cannot drink alcohol. Finished. No one is saying that if a Mufti says you can have a shot now and then, its ok then that is difference of opinion. Im not saying that.
All i'm saying is that we should always reflect on our intentions, reflect on the benefit of our actions, and try to be good people. We fight over small things, and do not realise that we agree on ninety percent of everything else.
* Like the word concert, i define groupy by its first meaning - an enthusiastic young fan.
My mum is going for an eye operation in the morning, so please keep her in your duaas. Its linked to her diabetes. The doctor says its a standard operation with little chance of complications but I am still worried about it.


KiLLa said...

Firstly i wish some your commentators mentality and abiility to debate rub off on mine.

I was at the concert on SAT night not just to witness first hand what all the hype was about but also just to concur what has been said about it.

I personally thought many people did not come due to the controversy surrounded by the venet and was also uphauled at the "RADIO STATIONS ARE A SOURCE OF FITNAA" comment. The reason for this is of course of a personal nature, as the Mufti that delivered this particular issue is one i have immense respect for and one who's words i tend to adhere to..

I still maintain that we as NORMAL people are too narrow minded to make decisions ourselves and that the ULEMA and MUFTIS need to be consulted in most matters.. It is not about complicating Deen, its about doing that which is good and forbiddng that which is evil..

I am also against music in correlation with the words "ALLAH" and "MOHAMMED (S.A.W)".. I aint going to lie. I listen to lotsa Bollywood music and i know its wrong.. But listening to those words in musical beats gave me a sense of disgust and i even felt as a bad person for attending..

in conclusion, i would rather spend R500 on a ticket to watch Shah Rukh Khan perform, knowing full well that it is a concert and it is wrong,then to get a free ticket to see the words of my CREATOR and his best CREATION being ridiculed and being deemed as a MASS ZIKR..

I am, as always, open to discussion..

Azra said...

I agree with you MJ - people should learn to respect other's opinions on certain issues (Not referring to the overtly HARAAM here)...

But I do believe that there are other Wars more worthy of our energies...other battles we need to concentrate on, instead of picking petty fights that dont benefit anyone in the long run.

Waseem said...

I disagree with this mentality of lets do haraam rather, cos i trust that haraam.

I found it disorienting at first myself, so it would explain slow start. There was alot that i liked but there were bits that concerned me, all of which you highlighted. In the balance im glad to have gone to the show and ive been singing nasheeds to myself since last night . Allahu alam.

As for all these music is haraam people, salaah is fardh. how about starting on that one before quoting fatwas. How about examining your own behavior before judging others. Im tired of the hypocricy on this issue. I agree with Azra, there are too many more important things to worry about.

bb said...

Like many others I went, enjoyed some parts, have my reservations about others. Is he perpetuating pop-star status? I disagree. (I didn't like the rose incident either, but I've been thinking-maybe his wife gave it to him) I don't think people going to the front and clapping was wrong compared to people standing by their seats and clapping. It just added atmosphere. Hearing many voices together is better than hearing scattered voices from around the venue.

What was wrong was a few people dancing & clapping wildly (Mr Pink Tie included). As for intermingling, I moved away from guys standing next to me, but considering it was mixed seating...

I would have preferred only percussive instruments, and feel the instrumental musical interludes emptied the words prior of spiritual soul.
I wanted to hear more songs, less music.

Anonymous said...

Junaid, I have written an academic paper on the idea of "popular culture" in Islam, and am developing a sociological analysis of exactly what this means.

In principle I think that religious verses from the Quran should not be put to music, but if the lyrics are about positive aspects of Islam, then I don't see the harm. One may compare Nasheed broadly to the genre of gospel music, without all the rock / alternative stuff.

I think there has always been a "popular culture" in Muslim societies....whether its people going to a Shayri recital and listening to Urdu poetry, and appreciating it by saying wah, wah or attending a performance of whirling dervishes (Turkey), or qawwalli (India / Pakistan). In SA we have yet to develop the idea of a Muslim public that can come together and appreciate a creative performance, and this is happening slowly through the genre of comedy shows, etc. But it has to be an evolution of sorts.

Please give salaams to Mum. I will make duaa that all goes well.

Trinity said...

I believe, if something is too confusing…if you cant distinguish between the good and bad, its better to stay away from it.

The problem is that too few people are able to make up their own minds about the confusing stuff. That’s why most will follow the crowd – they are too lazy to think for themselves. People are sheep. Yes we should consult, but we should read for ourselves. Don’t underestimate the fact that each person interprets events their own way. So they will advise you, with their own bias, and make it law.

Princess said...

MJ I make Dua'a that you ummi's op is a success, Aameen. Let us know her progress.

Anonymous said...

Imam Ghazalli has said there are 3 types of music: music that brings us closer to Allah SWT, music that does neither good nor bad and music that takes us away from Allah SWT.

I never had a problem with Sami Yusuf but after the concert..I do believe he is crossing the line with respect to how he conducts himself and the crowd.
Islamic etiquette should not be forgotten...and there were many moments in the concert where it was.
Also the idea of celebrity worship and people screaming his name etc in not on.

Razz said...

Killa - Its important to note that it was not a mass thikr, and I don't think it was intended to be that. The guy is a musician (but maybe he'd disagree with me).

The Oasis guy mentioned it being a mass thikr - but they seem to be as confused about it as any of the rest of us. Even though Oasis is openly defying the radio stations (and big ups to them for that), they also trying to unconsciously justify the celeb aspects and the dancing. And thats just because we, as SA Muslims, are so new to music and entertainment in Islam. None of us, and especially not them, know how to deal with it in a manner that is not going from one extreme to the other.

My sisters and I briefly chatted to Sami afterwards and we mentioned to him that the concert has started a debate in SA about music and about celebrating Allah in this kind of forum. He mentioned it being an issue of fiqh. Then he said how important it is for all us to respect each other and even accept each other, despite our differing views.
It made me sad to think how far we are from this. How can we ever learn from each other if we can't take the time to listen? My own dismissive attitude to some aspects of the ulama a case in point here.

KiLLa said...

Razz - I know what you mean and i know what Sami is saying in his defence. He is right in doing so.

Im not going to lie and say i despise music and do not listen to it. I do.. I love Bollywood music.

The only thing that p'd me off a bit was the marketing of it as a MASS ZIKR.. Oasis should do reasearch as they are a reputable organisation and more so they asset managers.

I wouldve went for the show regardless..Had it being depicted as it was and the way i see it. I know music and entertainment in SA in Islam is a very touchy issue.. So Oasis needed to know this as well..

Bilal said...

How ironic is this- Sami Yusuf is hosted on a national tour of South Africa by Oasis- a ‘Shariah compliant’ investment fund. From what I hear his concerts were awesome- I like Sami Yusuf too- saw him at Wembley in London performing for a 10000 strong crowd. And the 1400 odd year old debate on whether music in permissible is now on almost every blog, Facebook group, dinner table and ask-a-mufti session!

Reminds me of the sad story about the grandson of the Prophet of Islam- a person from the region where the terrible atrocity occurred, was discussing the Shariah ruling of the blood of a mosquito with a scholar, and was told something like: ‘You, who comes from the people who brutally tortured and murdered the beloved of the beloved of God, now while the blood of the Prophets grandson is still flowing in the streets, you are more concerned about the blood of a mosquito!’

Do you see the irony? South African Muslims, those that come from a middle class bourgeoisie background, in the wake of a global financial crisis, are busy with discussion on the music, while the show was hosted by an institution that belongs to the global economic system! South African Muslims, who some say are ‘the very same people that REPRESENT inequality and injustice’, are more concerned about the blood of a mosquito!!

Fatima said...

Salaams - BB, for the record, his wife didn't give him the rose :)


Anonymous said...

also...I don't think Sami Yusuf is perpetuating pop star mentality - but I think the action did.

We need to watch ourselves when we are on a public platform, especially when we are singing the words of Allah.

The song during which that incident occurred was 'Allahu.'

At the end of the day, we are all entitled to our own views/feelings, and my personal feelings/views are:

- that clapping and singing out loud don't make me feel in any way closer to Allah.

- I much prefer to just sit in my seat and listen.

- Oasis encouraged the concert like scenes and that was pretty irresponsible of them

- I find it hard to believe that a bunch of girls and boys - partially dressed - standing in front of the stage, wielding roses, and jumping and up and down are actually thinking 'Allahu Allahu,' it seems more plausible that they are thinking what they are saying: 'Sami Sami'

Just my two cents :)

And Allah Knows Best.

Fatima said...

sorry, the lat comment was from me, not sure why it showed up as anon.


Music is Haraam


1) Singing and listening to songs.
2) Purchasing of male and female singers.
3) Purchase of instruments of fun and amusement.






M Junaid said...

Let start

Killa - i respect your view even though I cant understand the last bit at all. If I may use an analogy - the debate of Music in Islam is similar to the debate concernign photography. There are differing point of views. With regards to photography - I follow the ruling given by Shaykh Salman Al Oudah (that it referred to Idols - 3 D scupltures etc. and that photograPHY is allowed - obviously based on content - a half naked picture of a porn star isnt.

So using that as a filter - are you saying that you would rather go to an ar gallery which has an abundance of nudity, as opposed to admiring some national geographic pictures - it might seem like a silly comparison but the principle is the same. Taking this further - and I must stress before I do that I also listen to Indian Music and I go for those concerts - what about songs that have aspects of Islamic culture in them> for instance - from Saawariya, Welcome, Khabi Kushi Khabi Gham, Anwar - i COULD go on.

Here is a guy whose content is good - take any song of his - the words are good, and contrast this to say - Insha Allah from the movie welcome. Or Masha Allah from Saawariya. Your thoughts? I do disagree with it beign called a mass Zikhr. I still maintain that it was a concert.

I was also saddened by the Comment made my the Oasis rep. Have you noticed how a large proportion of the crowd clapped though>?

always open to discussion :)

Azra - Bilal sums it up well :)

Waseem - Hypocricy lad. thats whats gonna destro all of us

BB - I wished that he ended with Supplication. Its my favourite track from his first CD and a Durood that I love reciting

CharouChick - please e mail me the paper. you know I have mad respect for your work :)

Trinity - I guess we are so worried trying to save everyone else that we forget to save ourselves. I agree with you. People need to read first. Iqra was the first revelation for a reason. Allah could have said Submit, or worship but he said 'Read'.

Princess - shes doing well alhumdulillah. thank you so much for the concern. It really is wonderful :)

Anon - I agree. I was lucky enough to read Imam Ghazalis chapter on music lats month. Very well written piece from a great acholar.

Razz - I hope this post answered some of your queries in your last comment. I question myself alot. I wen through a phase where I dismissed anything a certain Ulema said because I read a ruling of his that made no sense whatsoever (Aalim in question is Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi) but then I started takign the good (well, to me) and i put aside the negative stuff - teh contradictions etc) and I feel I have grown for it.

Its so important that we respect each other

Bilal - I couldnt have said it better mate :)

Fatima - thanks for clearign that up

M Junaid said...

Music is Haraam

You seem like a very busy chappy hey - Copying and posting this comment in over sx blogs in ten minutes :)

I am familiar with the Daarul Uloom Holcombe, and I am also familiar with the incident you narrated - concerning Sayyidana Abdullah Ibne Mas`ood radiyallahu Anhu (Allah be pleased with him. I read it in Mufti Muhajirs Tafseer of the Quran. No disrespect to the 'student' who compiled both the 'tv is haraam' and music is haraam' pieces but isnt it contradicting alot of whats happening in the Deobandi scool of thought right now? (The school of thought of that particular Daarul Uloom?

Surely if ghinaa (which is explicitly singing and not music) is haraam - then why is the Tablighi Jamaat (an off shoot of the Deobanid school of thought) promoting Junaid Jamshed so vociferously?

I also take issue with the 'Tv is Haraam' debate but I do so purely from a Media studies perspective which refutes the research aspect of that article.

Perhaps you would like to look at what Doctor (Phil) Ibrahim sayed has to say - He did a study on music and Muslims. (He is the president of The islamic research foundation International based in America)

Also - Since you enjoy copy and pasting I think I'l do the same - Its also a 'student'd compilation - much like the one from the website you referenced

Music is something unique to every culture and group of people. It defines their experiences and can provide a powerful means of bring people to Islam as seen through the works of Yusuf Islam, Dawood Warnsby Ali, MYNA raps, Sons of the Crescent and others (all have used musical instruments and sounds in one way or the other). Allah says: "Say: who has prohibited Allah's beautiful things which He created for His servants and good provisions?" Music can be a powerful tool if used correctly. There is no doubt that music and songs about haram activities is not allowed in Islam. But before we make a judgment on singing and instruments for Islamic purposes one must look at the arguments for and against the use of Instruments.

Argument #1:
The only scholar that ever said music was permissible is Sheikh Yusuf Qardawi:

There were many scholars in the past that said that music was permissible:

Shawkawni, Ibn Hazm, Ghazalli, Abú Bakr al-'Arabi, Qaradawi, and others.

Argument #2:
Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v:


There is a general rule in Shariah that states that everything is lawful unless proven unlawful. There is not substantial proof in this hadîths because of the following reasons:

Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanuti stated: "The Hadith referred to in saying that it is haram as narrated by al Bukhari is not fulfilling the requirements of the Sahih in al Bukhari's collection. 1) Al Bukhari in Hadith al Ma'azif himself narrated the Hadith to be of a broken chain of narrators in which there is a gap between al Bukhari and the second narrator, so he drops the first narrator in his chain. That is called Mu'allaq. Some scholars tried to connect the chain through other means like whan ibn Hajar did in his dissertation (connecting what is disconnected) in which he connected the Isnad of this Hadith. But still, one of the main narrators whose name is Hisham ibn Ammar as profiled in Tahthib at-Tahthib by ibn Hajar is not reliable enough for some scholars to be a source of a narration that depends on somebody like him. 2) Even when we said the Hadith is Sahih, there are questions that would emerge when we study the version of the Hadith when it says, "People will make adultery, pure silk, liquor and Ma'azif into Halal." We know that adultery is Haram by another proof and it is a unanimous Hukum. Pure silk is not of consensus Hukum. If a Muslim says Zina is Halal deliberately, then they are considered a kafir. However, if a Muslim says pure silk is not Haram, he is not a kafir. We know that liquor is Haram as it is in the Qur'an, but where do we find an authentic hadith or Qur'an to tell us that Ma'azif are Haram other than this source. The last point is to get the clear meaning of Ma'azif in arabic dictionaries because there are more than one meaning for Ma'azif. It is acceptable for a Muslim to hear somebody says Makruh but not Haram because Haram is in need of clear-cut meaning and certain narration."

Argument #3: Some Muslims state the following about this hadith:

Response to this argument:
However, these same people state that singing and the use of daff during weddings is ok because of the following hadîth in Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v:


There is no forbidden action that is permitted merely for pleasure and enjoyment only at certain times. The hadîth that is quoted above mentions things that are definitely known to be haraam, namely zina and alcohol. Even silk which the Prophet wore himself for a short period before violently taking it off (see hadîths Volume 1, Book 8, Number 372) the prophet did not allow it on the Eids:

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 289: Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) - Narrated Ibn 'Umar - 'Umar saw a silken cloak being sold in the market and he brought it toAllah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Buy this cloak and adorn yourself with it on the 'Id festivals and on meeting the delegations." Allah's Apostle replied, "This is the dress for the one who will have no share in the Hereafter (or, this is worn by one who will have no share in the Hereafter)."

From this argument we should understand the hadîth meaning that being involved in wearing silk, fornication, wine drinking and musical instruments is haram. We can see that there are many Muslims today who are involved in all four of these aspects at once.

Imam Ghazali said in Ihya Ulum Al-Din--The Revival Of The Religious Sciences: "The musical instruments and songs which are typically associated with drunkards are prohibited as they remind of prohibited things and promote the prohibited, such as the consumption of wine and other intoxicants. These prohibited instruments include the Majamir, the Autar and the Kubah, but not the Daf, the flute and other musical instruments."

Argument #4:
All of the schools of thought including Maliki, Shafii, Hanbali and Hanafi say that music is Haram

Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanuti stated:

"The majority of schools say music is haram, but there are some other reliable schools that say it is halal."

We must look at the evidence provided by all scholars and then take into consideration what the music is being used for. In this age, the music industry is powerful and it leads astray many youth who are addicted to this music. As Muslims we must provide Islamic alternatives for them in order to guide them back to Islam.

Argument #5:
All other Ahadeeh recorded refer to musical instruments negatively.

In Bukhari, another hadith relates a connection between musical instruments and the family of David (saw). This is evidence that, indeed, the Psalms were musical in nature:

Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 568:
"Narrated Abu Musa that the Prophet said to him' "O Abu Musa! You have been given one of the musical wind-instruments of the family of David.'"

The following hadith relates of how the adhan (call to prayer) came to be, and how the Prophet's companions suggested the use of musical instruments such as the horn or bell like the People of the Book. Now although the Prophet ultimately approved the use of the human voice, there is no mention that the Prophet chastised his companions for suggesting musical instruments for the adhan. And if the Prophet was so very much against musical instruments, then why would his companions dare to suggest the use of such sinful things in the call to prayer?

From Muslim Book 004, Number 0735:

As Muslims we must understand the environment that our youth live in. Our duty is to bring Islam to them and instil the love of Allah in their hearts. We must combat the negative forces in the society with positive alternatives rather than harsh rules that are not agreed upon by all scholars. Music and singing has been used successfully for over a decade in this country as a means to bring the youth to have stronger faith in their religion. We should encourage this development to the best of our abilities.

Please note - my tone is not confrontational at all. I am just contributing to the debate.
peace be upon you