Attention all working class bums... how affordable is your 308/Mondial???

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by s2mikey, Nov 5, 2003.

  1. s2mikey

    s2mikey Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    Upstate, New York
    Full Name:
    Mike B
    Hi all. I read the post regarding household incomes and all of that. I assume from looking at the profiles, most on this board are NOT working class stiffs like me. That's cool. Capitalism rules.

    My question is aimed at any other "Joe Regulars" that have a Ferrari:

    Does your Ferrari fit into the household budget or is it really cutting into other important stuff? Ya know, is your car ownership costing a lot more than expected?

    Has the car been generally "affordable"?

    IF you found a good example, has it been financially reasonable or has it been a frustrating money pit?

    I have to ask because before I plunk down my families future :), I want to get a feel for what other "regular" owners have experienced with running costs. unexpected repairs, and any other info.

    Thanks a bunch...

    Mike - Household income = UNDER $65K yearly.
  2. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
    Full Name:

    >>>Does your Ferrari fit into the household budget...<<<

    Plan on about $1 a mile.

    >>>Has the car been generally "affordable"?<<<

    yes, finding the RIGHT example is KEY here IMHO. Take your time and PPI is a must.

    >>>IF you found a good example, has it been financially reasonable or has it been a frustrating money pit?<<<

    Found good example, yet have taken it upon myself to make her better through new complete light assemblies, emblems, etc. While not necessary by any means, these are "cheap" enough to plan accordingly.

    Bottom line is in finding a very good example that PPIs well and preferably has great service documentation.

    The above are simply my opinions. That and $3 will get you the most DISGUSTING fake espresso from McDonalds. Better bet is to get a nice Gaggia maker, Rocky grinder, and Cafe Do Punto beans. The point here is to TAKE YOUR TIME and INVEST into a lifetime of enjoyment. Fast food is just that... well, perhaps not "food", but a life sustaining substance. A GREAT MEAL takes care, time, and knowledge in producing a wonderful outcome.

    Enjoy the Drive,

    Steven R. Rochlin
  3. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    "Most on this board are NOT working class stiffs like me".....
    I find that statement to be a little off base, as most of the folks I have had the pleasure to meet have worked even harder than most to realize their dreams.

    As far as a Ferrari being afordable for you, I have no idea what kind of bills you have so you will have to do the math, But...
    for an old 308 or Mondial you will be spending half of your yearly income on the purchase of the car.... and thats a good chunk of change.
    Then on top of the say 30k for the purchase, you will need around 10k put aside to keep it running for repairs and such.
    If you are good with a wrench then you will only be out money for parts and not labor.
    But if you can't perform jobs such as changing cam belts, and valve adjustment, then you will be out a good amount of cash to pay a shop.
    Remember cars like this are old and most are in need of service in some way or another.
    For example, rubber suspension bushings, fuel lines, fuel filler line, and the assortment on a car thats say 26 years old will need replacement.
    If your up to it than great, but if you need a shop to do the work then have a big pocket book.
  4. pete04222

    pete04222 Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    Maine, USA
    Full Name:
    Peter Cyr
    I treat my car like a toy. That is what it is really. I wanted to get a boat, but sat down and figured even if I had a boat I wouldn't get the use out of it. It would spend more time on the trailer in the yard than on the water. So I spent the boat money on a Ferrari. I get good use out of that. You can just hop in it for a quick ride to the store without making it an all day affair like boating involves.
    I gave $23.5k on a '79 308, I've had it for almost 2 years now. If you can do a lot of your own work it is fairly reasonable. About the same cost as maintaining an equally priced boat. Last year I spent $500 to change the ignition over from points to electronic (did that myself). This year I spent $350 to have the tires balanced, the front end aligned and the carbs set-up (shop work).
    So I would think on a $65k salary a 308 series or a mondial would be well within the realm of possibility. If you want to get one as a daily driver than I think the maintainance costs would be unreasonable. But as a toy with limited useage I think the cost vs. enjoyment level is quite favorable.
  5. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    If buying a Ferrari could hinder your family situation or take something away from your kids (if you have them) don't buy one right now and wait. It isn't worth it to jeopardize your family or harm their quality of life over gotta have syndrome.
  6. Trinacria

    Trinacria Formula Junior

    Aug 7, 2002
    Long Island, NY
    Full Name:
    Baldassare Guzzo
    I happen to be one of the "working class bums" you are refferring to. Everyone's situation is different so I can not comment on how you spend your 65K income, but I believe you can do it . FWIW I have a wife, a house, and a beautiful daughter. I dont have a lot of hobbies, but always loved cars in general. Management of your money is the key. When I was younger and living at home I bought a Corvette. I sold it 2 years ago and used the money as a down payment on my Ferrari. The payments for my 308 were no more than a small new car today. Therefore, it fit my budget perfectly. Maintanence, well, that is another story. It has cost me a little more than expected but I am able to manage. I do 90% of the work myself now. I was a little Ferrari HAPPY when I first bought it and bought more stuff than I needed. I was in a rush to make it great. Don't rush - take your time with those new wheels, or that new stereo, or whatever. In any case, set up a budget for your car, and just dont go over it. Good luck and Have fun!
  7. s2mikey

    s2mikey Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    Upstate, New York
    Full Name:
    Mike B
    I didn't mean to imply that those who have made it big didn't work hard! I'm just poking fun at my rather dull, textbook existence! Hell, the big cats obviuosly worked harder than me! :)

    As for taking things away from my kids...that's a joke too. Ya know those bumper stickers on nice cars that read "I spent my kids college fund on this car". I'm never going to jeopardize their future for my car disease.

    So... yes, I'm serious about my questions I asked in my post, but try to take the statements with some humor... OK?

  8. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    308 or similar ownership is very much accessible to the average Joe. I personally bought mine totally in the face of personal economic reason (mind you I am not married and have no kids so I can be a little selfish and irresponsible). I personally recommend ownership to anyone who has 3 things:

    1. The money to buy the car or lease it without re-mortgaging your house

    2. Mechanical ability. This is essential because if you don't know how to work on it, it can get very expensive.

    3. Time. You need time to tinker and search for deals and part cross references. This is a good place to start but if your life is impossible hectic then you have to consider this.

    On the bright side you will be owning your dream, the car will not depreciate, and it will make you smile whenever you drive it.
  9. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 5, 2002
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Dom V.
    It's a tough question.

    I spent $18000 on my GT4. Immediately upon purchase, I spent another $6000 to do the major service, install aftermarket exhaust, and install electronic ignition. Since then, I've probably spent $1000-$2000 on various odds and ends (upgraded brake pads with the help of some ferrarichatters, oil changes, fix leather on dash, rebuilt alternator, etc). Alot of the stuff I was able to do myself (or with the help of some friends), thus saving a little money.

    However, I would not be surprised if yearly maintenance/upgrade costs average ~$5000/year (I'd like to redo leather seats, buy new wheels, etc.,etc.).

    Those are real considerations when purchasing a ferrari.

    I see you are in upstate NY. I belive the cost of living there is signficantly cheaper than here in Southern California. So although I make more, I pay a huge mortgage, and increased living expenses).

    I have a wife and 2 kids, and in truth, the money I spent on my car could have been better spent. I have college educations to think about, my wife (and I) would like to renovate the kitchen, bathrooms in the house.

    In the end, only you can make the decision. I really wanted this car, and felt that I could purchase the car and still take care of my other responsibilities. I do make sure to put the max in my 401K, so at least that is taken care of. And, I paid cash for the car, since I didn't want a car loan to worry about. But it's a huge hunk of cash for me. If you feel you can handle it, then go for it. If not, take your time, and figure out ways to save/make money to purchase at a later time.

  10. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Frankly, I don't think $65k is enough. You'll not be able to fly on vacations, eat out much, go to movies, etc. If your expenses are low you'll be able to scrape it but your car will always need something that you'll decide to let go longer than it should. I think a lot of the rough 308/Mondials we see for sale are owned by people not making 6 figures.
  11. MadMaxx

    MadMaxx Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    Many of those who have toys of any variety worked to get where they are.

    Life is all about priorities. 65K might not sound like much, but think how how many people would kill for the chance to make that kind of money. Average household income is actually very low in the US.

    How bad do you want the car? Total income isn't the only thing you should be looking at. Do you have debt? if so, what % of your net/mo does it consume?

    Many factors to look at.... but anything is do-able in this world.

  12. MadMaxx

    MadMaxx Karting

    Nov 5, 2003

    I've seen executives go bankrupt and secretaries be financially independant. Income is nothing if you don't have a good head on your sholders and control of your finances.

    Also, income does not deturmine the level of quality on a car. Trust me... I've seen much better cars from the enthusiest who knows ever nut and bolt on his car, than the guy who drives them every 10 years. So that is not always the case. Cars get rough from neglect from it's owner...not just financially but emotionally.


    JOECHRISTMAS Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2001
    IMHO it is best to be able to buy your car and not finance it. Just think of the repair bills on top of the monthly payments.
  14. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    Remeber the old line "If you have to ask you can't afford it". I can't stand that but I just thought it was funny.
  15. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    There have been several threads over the years on F-chat about "how much money do you need to make to afford a Ferrari?" If my memory is correct, there are two typical responses: "If you can't pay cash, don't buy" & "life is short, buy one regardless". Of course there are various other repsonses, but these two seem to make up the majority of the responses.

    One thing I rarely see mentioned however, is looking at it from a cash flow perspective. Perhaps a better question could be: "on top of whatever I have to pay for the car & insurance, how much do I need per month to keep the thing on the road?"

    Everything seems reasonably simple from the cash flow standpoint, if your monthly budget would allow for the payment on the Ferrari and all of the associated costs, why not? What if, for example, all of your other cars are reliable and paid off, meaning that you wouldn't need to replace them while the F-car is financed. There would be little difference between keeping the daily drivers and financing the F-car, or trading your DD in for another new DD. From the perspective of cash flow, both options are identical, except that with #1 you get to enjoy the F-car. With option #2 you have to save up an additional $30k somewhere to buy the F-car, and your new DD will be an old DD by that time.

    I would also be classified as a "working class bum", but I have strived to reduce my cash outflow each month where possible and it doesn't impact my lifestyle in an unacceptable way. It makes it much easier to save when fixed monthly expenses are reduced. And no, I don't own an F-car yet, but when the time is right and I can enjoy and afford it I will. Now I just need to keep my wife from trading DD's every two years.

    As far as your comments concerning the "big cats obviously work harder than me", and "working class bum". If you have a job or are looking, you are "working class", regardless of income, and not a bum. Don't put yourself down that way using Democratic Party jargon. Also, don't bet that they work harder/longer hours, rather they are willing to tolerate more risk, or have skills which most others don't (unfortunately sometimes that skill is the ability to BS a Board of Directors into giving them a job despite a loack of other required skills). There is a limit to how many hours a person can work in a day for a sustainable period of time. The "big cats" merely have a different work day than others. I assume all are hard-working people, but remember there are only 168 hours in a week, and you have to sleep sometime.

    I don't know how long you've been an F-chatter, but in my experience most of the "big cats" on the board are either highly trained (doctors, lawyers) or entrepreneurs.

    Reduce cashflow other places in your budget, save for a down payment for a few months, and finance it. Whether its $500/mo on a Mondial or a Town & Country minivan, it is still $500/mo.
  16. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    I'm one of those working blue collar stiff's aswell. I'm a mechanic and I'm not married and don't have any kids(that I know of anyway).
    I own an 82 308gtsi and it has been a fantastic car and has been very reliable. The car itself is in great over all condition. Although the milage showing on the odo is not the correct milage.(I knew this going into the car).

    Since I have owned the car I have replaced all the coolant hoses,done the timing belts and tentiner bearings,adjusted the valves,and replaced the differential. All told I think I have about $3,000 into the car in 3 years of ownership.

    This winter I'm pulling the engine and I'm going to rebuild it. Not because it really needs it,but because it is starting to use a bit more oil then when I first bought it. The will cost me approx 4k to do. I'm also going to replace the suspention bushings and all 4 shocks and maybe treat myself to some nice wheels. All this stuff is not really nessassary but i'm doing it because the car is 21 years old..and I think it's about time for a freshen up.

    If you want to buy a Ferrari that's around this age then you have to remeber you are buying a 20+ year old car. Any car this old will require work. Ferrari or not. Just that the Ferrari could be as much as 3x more to fix then say a 20 year old Corvette.

    In general I have found ownership to be a very satisfiing experiance, and for a guy like to be be able to own one is just the icing on the cake. I still can't belive it's sitting in my garage.

    But like the others have said what ever you do buy the best car that you can afford. Ask a million questions to owners,past owners and even go to the dealerships,or independant garages that work on these cars and ask them questions as well. You would be surpeized how accomadating they will be.

    Above all..learn how to turn your own wrenches. By books, maneuls,anything you can get you hands on and start reading about engines,electrical,suspention,brakes anything!! An then go buy yourself a good set of tools and start wrenching away. This is the only way you will beable to afford to service the car. Buying the car is one thing,servicing it is a complete other story.
  17. s2mikey

    s2mikey Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    Upstate, New York
    Full Name:
    Mike B
  18. MadMaxx

    MadMaxx Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    I fear no car, nor should you :) Do you have any mechanical skills? Working on cars is not hard, just follow proceedure, and do lots of swearing.

    Sometimes you have to wait for the things you want. Write down your goal, so it's real. Figure out how you can work towards it and make it happen.

  19. Tyler

    Tyler F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2001
    dusty old farm town
    Full Name:
    It depends on how much of your own work you do, but I would figure anywhere from $1.50 to $2.00 per mile for an 8 cyl. car all in.

    side note: Think about investing your money instead of buying a F-car and focus on your net worth instead of income. If you invest well then in not too many years your investments can pay for that F-car instead of you. Most "Big Cats" started out as little kittens.
  20. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 5, 2002
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Dom V.
    If it is running costs you are worried about:

    I've heard several sources suggest that the price of running a ferrari is roughly $1/mile. So if you drive 5000 miles/year, expect your yearly maintenance to run $5000. Of course, it could vary over a multiyear cycle, so that you spend only $2000 one year, but $7000 the next year.

    I've also heard prices as high as $3/mile.

    My guess is that the more you use it, the cheaper/mile cost.

  21. norm

    norm Karting

    May 30, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    A lot is going to depend on the vehicle you end up with. Has it had a major? Clutch? Water Pump? What kind of shape is the leather interior and carpets in. You get what you pay for. You can buy cheap, then spend for these items as they come up, or buy a car that has all these areas covered. It is important to realize that these cars are not like Corvettes, Camaros, and a number of other muscle cars where there are a large number of part sources, and companies manufacturing reproduction parts. You may want to get a good handle on how much typ. repairs cost for a Ferrari that you desire, as well as part costs.
  22. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:

    Yes; this is it in a nutshell! My Europa has cost $250 a month not including gas, oil and insurence and the cost of the car. This cost is reflective of the fact it's been a rolling, driving restoration project, but I'm 3/4 of the way done now so after another year I hope that figure will drop substantially.

    I imagine any 308/Mondial will also have high costs attached to it at first, but once they're shaken out I expect they are very reliable cars. That "shake out" expense is not cheap on a 25 year old exotic however. If you are a DIY guy, the costs are 1/3 or less than if you have the work done. I'd budget $10k myself the first year and hope I get change. I'm sure there are cars that need way less than that if you get lucky.

    That's why I said initially that $65k would be difficult to keep the car in top shape AND live a lifestyle that $65k would entitle you to.
  23. Santini

    Santini Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2003
    North Carolina
    LOL :) Excellent advice.
  24. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    Roseburg, OR
    Full Name:
    Hans E. Hansen
    I think bottom line - if you're looking for a short answer - is that ownership is very expensive if you have a mechanic do all your work, but do-able for those of average income if you hold your own wrench. Uh, didn't mean it THAT way!

    Parts aren't cheap, but labor is the killer. My oil pressure sender just crapped out. It's several times more expensive than one on a Chevy, but the problem is that it takes several hours to replace. Well, at least 2, maybe up to 4. At retail labor rates, that's one expensive oil sender. If I do it myself, it's not so bad, economically speaking.

    So, again, if you can fix it yourself, go for it. If not, better wait.
  25. Tennlee

    Tennlee Formula Junior

    Feb 10, 2002
    Great Smoky Mountains
    Don't forget: For me, I feel I've only done a really good job on my car when I bleed for it. If I finish merely cursing, I've probably only done a half-assed job.

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