Photons have mass: Robert J Martineau's Photodynamics

  • I don't know if this theory or paper has been discussed before on this board, but I found it fascinating, If true it helps explain some intractable problems with observations about Neutrinos (how can they have mass as proven by oscilations, yet seem to travel only at the speed of light within any measurable precision), as well as give some theoretical understanding of photon behaviour (photon self propulsion, where the photon has the highest at "rest" so accelerates rapidly to c, a lower energy state) (eq. 10-13).

    I was particularly interested in the discussion of how appying l'Hopitals rule to the equations proves that if a photon has no mass, it's energy is zero (eq. 8 and 9).

    I would LOVE some comments with those more knowledgeable about physics and the math than me to show me why this paper is wrong. By wrong I mean the math is wrong or there is direct experimental evidence clearly nullifying the hypothesis.

    Please no arguments like "physicists know everything, and they don't like this idea." I also like it because even I can understand the math, at least I think I do.…4301_Photodynamics_JPM_OA

  • "we demonstrate that E = mc2 does not apply to any particle that travels at the speed of light"

    This is obvious as it is the endpoint of acceleration and a real- classic mass can never reach it. May be Einstein said this some 100 years ago - but who knows Einstein...

    Reversing the logic is what current physicists have more problems with. (EM-) Mass at light speed cannot be subject to GER...

  • L'Hopital's rule result is valid

    Martineau is saying that the conventional rationale for photon light speed is not valid.

    Rest mass of a photon?

    The nearest thing to a photon at rest in Mill's GUTCP is a trapped photon..

    The trapping of photons allows us to see them with our retinas.

    Its the energy exchange when a photon changes btw trapped and free which is more significant to us.

    Mills has a whole section called the Equation of the Photon..

    The speed appears to be a lot less than c in the simulations

  • What is most interesting to me is the new equations of motion, which show how the photon accelerates back to the speed of light, as that is the lowest energy state at v=c. As important, is that he says neutrinos are the same class of particle as a photon. And since they have only been observed traveling at the speed of light and are now known to have mass, it shows mainstream physicists are ignoring this huge contradiction. Their only excuse could be that neutrinos are going "very close but not exactly" the speed of light but no experiment shows this, and even if true, why are there never any slow neutrinos found?

  • it shows mainstream physicists are ignoring this huge contradiction

    Neutrinos with rest mass.. apparently,,

    There are quite a few shortcomings with 20th century so-called Standard Model

    such as the tiny rest mass..

    Randell Mills- the pointmass Schrodinger electron that exists everywhere

    Bernard Schaeffer- magnetic Rutherford scattering

    but all these are minor problems ...solvable

    by building another billion dollar CERN collider.

    ..and studies of the Higgs mother of all particles...?

    Paradigms survive way past their use-by-date. not much longer left

    My prediction ... less than 2 years,, LENR will be one nail in the coffin..Safire another,

  • Relativity measures the dilation of time and shortening of space we observe of another object. It like a map scale and the map is our representation of what we are observing. So here how I use it. One measures the distance between parts of a hydrogen atom: the electron and the nucleus just at the point that bonding begins (say 1.5 x the bohr radius) and then due to the effects of relativity the distance between same two components as the diameter of a proton. That provides us with the Lorentz factor. Of course the Lorentz factor is also the ratio of the particle being accelerated to its rest mass and also the ratio for time dilation. If you look at my pending patent you see the details of those calculations. The weak force interaction as a W accelerates the neutrino mass. Based on the required energy balance ( an electron, antineutrino and (energy to make a proton) balanced to a proton), one can calculate a rest mass for the neutrino in our frame of reference. Of course rest mass is the mass it has if it is at rest in our frame of reference.

    So I never have to consider the velocity of the neutrino. It's rest mass has nothing to do with an absolute velocity across space. I never let the speed of light into the calculation. In a strange way the neutrino and the W particle are not significant. The relativity calculation is just a way to balance energy and to explain the difference between the usual space and the observed dilation of time and contraction of space that would account for the transition to a proton.

  • Of course that photons carry mass: the simplest argument for it is, during merging of magnetars and/or during supernovae explosions a substantial portion of their matter gets radiated into space in form of photons. When these photons get absorbed, they will increase mass of their target. It was actually measured by gamma ray photons, which excited lead atom nuclei in mass spectrometer: once lead nuclei absorbed gamma ray photons, their mass increased.

    Special relativity was based on Maxwell's theory symmetrized by Lorentz, so it allows only transverse waves. The transverse waves spread like pure clean harmonic circular ripples at the water surface. It means that curvature of space-time which gets involved always travels with speed of light and such a harmonic wave thus cannot mediate any mass - only energy and momentum.


    But photons are quite different beasts, which ipso-facto violate special relativity and they're formed by interaction of harmonic Maxwell wave with quantum fluctuation of vacuum like solitons of transverse waves. And transverse wave solitons always contain scalar (longitudinal) wave component in similar way, like longitudinal wave solitons contain tranverse component. It means when Maxwell wave spreads with superposed photons on it, then the radial component of space-time curvature propagates like material particle.

    After then the following question arises: if the photons are massive, how the heck it is possible, they're still travel with speed of light? Shouldn't they propagate much slower? And it is really so - the photons, especially these energetic ones have pronouncedly subluminal speed. But there is the trick, as the above animation implies: the photons which arrive at target aren't these ones, which were originally generated. They move in quantum jumps and they occasionally disappear for to emerge somewhere else like green bush crickets. So that despite the photons propagate by subluminal speed by itself, as a whole they still propagate with speed of light, because decoherence and quantum jumps of photons speed up the photons in average.

    The rest mass of photons is actually even bit more complex in dense aether model, because photons would appear massive only in completely flat space-time, which vacuum definitely isn't - so that even low-energy photons of CMBR still propagate through vacuum like massless particles: only photons of shorter wavelength actually mediate mass.

  • The above model has many testable consequences, like the blue shift for microwaves and radiowaves. It also shows, we aren't required to look for scalar waves - we have them (in unpure form) before our eyes all the time in form of photons. But the existence of photons also shows, what the quantum gravity is actually all about: because photons are most lightweight particles mediating mass, they also represents gravitons sought by quantum gravity theorists: they have them before their eyes all the time. It also shows that gravitational waves are swarms of CMBR photons - gravitons and that pulsars are also short wavelength sources of quadruple gravitational waves.

  • So has the rest mass of the photon been measured, if it can be stopped? As in

    In 2001, Ron Walsworth, Mikhail Lukin and colleagues at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics formed slow moving polaritons in a vapor of rubidium atoms, in much the same way that Hau slowed light in a BEC. By turning down the lasers that made the vapor transparent, the researchers gradually reduced the portion of the polaritons that were made of photons and increased the portion made of atoms, and the light was effectively stopped and stored in the vapor. By turning the lasers back up, the researchers converted the polaritons back into photons, which then resumed their speed-of-light travel. At about the same time that this work was being done, Hau’s group stopped light in a BEC.

    Among other things, stopping light might provide a way to store data in future optical computers, or lead to new ways to manipulate light.

    There are similarities to Holmlid's recent work if ultra dense hydrogen has properties of a Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC). Maybe the stopped photon behaves like a W- or Z- boson? Still looking for a mechanism for spontaneous & laser driven meson release from UDH.

  • Quote


    Boson condensate is not vacuum, the photons propagate across it in polariton vortices. I speculated that swarms of gamma ray photons propagate through vacuum in similar way, which wipes out their dispersion. This effect fooled quantum gravity theorists, who believed that gamma rays should propagate slower through vacuum due to its foamy structure. Which they actually do, but their cohesive motion in large group forces them all arrive at single moment, i.e. lower speed doesn't imply higher dispersion authomatically. This explanation also shows, that really energetic photons exhibit their own gravity field, not just mass.

    3l49mS2.gif MASbOgP.jpg


    The problem is that classical physics still believes there is a magic mass "made out of Gremlins". But : All mass is EM and stored rotating mechanical mass. Nothing left. Thus per definition all photons have EM mass.

    The key question is which mass structure(s) do(es) interact with the gravitation force. The latest experiments show that a possible neutrino rest mass must below 1.1 eV way lower the once claimed 20eV. Effectively they measured 0.7 eV the rest is the confidence interval. Unluckily all neutrino mass measurements experiments use fudge logic based on SM what makes their outcome highly questionable.

    But this is not the most important open question. Does the free electron really gravitate??

  • I already explained here, that Standard Model considers gluons and photons massless only because they propagate in already dense environment of nuclear matter. In free vacuum they would indeed become massive, which is also why distance scope of nuclear forces (which these bosons are supposed to mediate) is so small. It has logic defying consequences, for example axion field which is supposed to break symmetry in vacuum is supposed to make gluons more resistant to CP symmetry breaking.


    Does the free electron really gravitate?

    According to quantum mechanics free particle is subject of degeneracy pressure and its probability function should expand freely into infinity. If the electrons still aren't doing it, it just means, they should gravitate by itself.


    Using reverse neutron decay as in my previous comment, the calculated value for neutrino rest mass I found was 0.109 ev. Of course that value depends on my choice of unbonded radius of the hydrogen atom and my fitting of weak interacting states.

    There are 240 accessible states between hydrogen ionization and neutron decay (13.5878925 ev to 0.7824260693 MeV specific to within 2.0E-5 ev)

  • What is mass? Accelerating electrons generates a magnetic field that becomes resistance. Similarly, protons generate electromagnetic mass. Since light is a pulse of an electric field, there is no electromagnetic mass. Light appears to be particles because of the properties of electrons and protons that transmit electric field pulses.

    Since neutrons are composite particles of protons and electrons, they have an electromagnetic mass.

  • hi,

    I am science writer. my articles is here.

    Mass is electromagnetic force

    Light travels through particles

    Thanks for the links kazunori miura , I think Alan was referring to Academic papers but your links provide a good idea of what you think about. I see you adscribe to the electric universe (or at least the electric Earth) ideas.
