Thursday, October 30, 2008

Rio Celeste in Costa Rica

Hey guys, not too long ago, D’Angelo and I went for the day to Tenorio Volcano National Park. Since we live in La Fortuna, not too far away, it was the perfect day trip. Visitors are drawn to this park to see Rio Celeste, known for its ‘blue’ waters. And we’re talking BLUE. If you have the chance, don’t miss this place, it’s great. That said, I’ll let the video do the talking, and if you want a little more info on Rio Celeste, go here.


Monday, October 27, 2008

F*** AM Costa Rica

I must say, I have a lot less respect for AM Costa Rica (they are an internet news source for Costa Rica), see article here And NOT just because they endorse John McCain for president, it's their reasoning. Take a look and see what you think. Note: the italics were obviously added by ME. Here’s what they said:

There is a long tradition of newspaper endorsements of candidates, even though the impact, if there is any, remains unclear. (You endorsed Bush, and his impact has been very clear.)

Still A.M. Costa Rica strongly endorses John McCain,
(WOW, big surprise you choose McCain, hopefully you're readers don't give a rip what you think.) the Arizona senator, for president of the United States. We urge others to follow our reasoning and cast their votes the same way. (Your dots are so abstract they don’t even recognize each other in order to connect.)

John McCain has his faults and some baggage. (Admit he has problems in order to act as if you're not bias, well,we all do, how about being a little more specific.) But John McCain is a proven patriot whose vision of America is of a strong beacon of freedom and personal liberty. (There’s millions of proven patriots and I also have a vision of a strong America- please tell me there’s more prerequisites for becoming president of the United States.)

We would be happy to endorse his opponent as a premier used car salesman.
(As an editor, you should know what an Ad hominem argument is- which is a fancy way to say, ‘cheap, personal attack.’) After 45 years in the newspaper business, the editor knows slick, (just because Obama gives a better speech?) and that is what is being marketed by the Democratic campaign. (They don’t market him as ‘slick,’ they market him as ‘hope,’ big difference.) He has seen candidates raise false hope. (Yeah, I guess you’re right- only Democrats do that.) His first presidential vote was for John Kennedy. (Dating yourself are we? I’ll bet the only thing you’ve changed in the last 48 years is your underwear.) JFK's inexperience almost got the United States into a nuclear war. (No harm, no foul, and besides, many people believe he diverted a nuclear war, not almost got us into one.)

The editor also covered the Great Society and Medicaid, the current budget busters.
(Could this editor be any more partisan; but he’s the true expert, maybe HE should run for president.) He learned that government is not the solution. (Under whose presidency did you learn this?) The solution always is the hard work, enterprise and creativity of Americans of whatever color. (How very republican of you. This is an untrue statement and does not necessarily make for a positive outcome. Furthermore, it's usually uttered by people who don’t understand the meaning of an uneven playing field.)

The Me-Me Generation has risen to some degree of influence in the United States.
(I think you were trying to say this- Big Business has risen to prominent influence in the United States.) The wholesale thefts and frauds that hit the country financial system show that. (Again, big business.) The need now is for personal courage and honesty, not some supergovernment, leftist quick fix. (How about collective accountability and I don’t remember anyone saying anything was going to happen overnight.)

This endorsement is sure to provoke whines from the disaffected expats who cut and ran
. (Are you insinuating the gringo’s that live in Costa Rica aren’t affected, or that we’re just losers who couldn’t make it in the good ‘ol US of A?) America does not cut and run. (That’s because we always think we’re right.) America finishes what it starts, (I understand this reasoning- I know when I make a mistake, I just keep going and act as if I didn’t.) including efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Obvious, a problem- not like you’re going out on a limb mentioning Afghanistan. Now, if you would have said ‘Russia,’ that would have been edgy.) America does not sit down with second-rate, authoritarian dictators. (Yeah, because what we’ve been doing so far has been working so well.) America does not whimper and beg pardon from the world for being great. (This statement is the very reason we have a marketability problem- look up the word ethnocentrism and get a clue.)

Given the options, George Bush was the best choice.
(Hate to tell you, but George is going to go down in history as possibly the worst president in US history………… wanna bet?) But now the nation needs a coordinated, uniform effort to reinforce the cornerstone principles of America. (Thanks for defining those ‘principles’ for us, and I love the word ‘cornerstone-’ so apple pie.) And voters do not need to open the door to the terrorists and racists who seek to prove their hatred of the country. (We are NOT the world police, why can’t we worry about the people that live here for awhile and practice what we preach, we are not spreading democracy, we just want the damn oil.)

I need to be clear: I don’t endorse either candidate as I have no faith in the political system, but that’s not the point. This is the most poorly written drivel I’ve seen in a long time. Generality after generality- lame at best...just sayin.

Don't forget to check out hundreds of videos about Costa Rica at: and a ton of information on Costa Rica in general at: EnJOY!

Wednesday, October 22, 2008

Gringo Pricing - Inalienable right

Gringo Pricing- the seemingly inalienable right or practice of indiscriminately raising the price (often substantially) of a product or service solely because the purchaser of said product or service is caucasian.

Gringo pricing is a fact of life in Costa Rica. They think we’re rich; or at least richer than them, which may or may not provide the rationale for this behavior, it’s hard to say, but they really do seem to believe this practice is justified. Hell, maybe it is.

This is a much bigger issue than just jacking up the prices for the tourists in places like souvenir shops, hotels/restaurants, and tour companies- in these places it’s almost halfway expected. I’m talking about the prices for the gringos that live here, especially when it comes to legal fees, and ANYTHING to do with construction, from architects to materials, to labor costs. Scams such as skimming off the top or doubling and tripling the price are common practice here. One of the worst is when there’s an agreed upon price and halfway through the project unforeseen expenses begin to pop up. Trust me- it’s NEVER the original quote on anything. Many stores blatantly raise their prices for the unknowing gringo and a haircut that cost a tico 1500 colones ($3.00) will often cost you $10.00. And if you don’t know Spanish, forget about it, which is why many gringos use their tico friends to do their bidding. This is really the only way to get a fair deal, just make sure the tico is truly a friend, because unfortunately, the ‘friend’ could be in on it, just sayin.

If you’re thinking about moving here just know this is a fact, right or wrong. If they can separate you from your money- they will…. as it’s their inalienable right. Of course it may be your inalienable right to tell them what they can do with their inalienable right.

Our VIDEO on Gringo Pricing

Don't forget to check out hundreds of videos on Costa Rica at: and a ton of information on Costa Rica in general at: EnJOY!

Tico-Time defined

Let's be clear, 'tico-time' is technically an, really it is. But if you live in Costa Rica, you're well aware of its meaning. Tico-time, regardless of how it's defined, exists here, and it SUCKS big time. I believe this can’t be overstated enough. I’ve probably read just about every book on Costa Rica and they like to say it’s not like the States, you must be patient, things are done differently here…well; I’m here to tell you, that is a vast understatement. Really, I only have a few pet peeves when it comes to ‘things’ Costa Rica(n) and this would be at the top of my list, because no matter how hard I try, this still tests my fortitude on a regular basis. I realize in the States we can be somewhat anal about being on time; as it’s all about schedules and meetings and organizing your time so as not to waste it, or other peoples’ for that matter, but personally I like that system. It works. When I say 10:00 o’clock, there’s a reason, cause at 11:00 o’clock I have something else to accomplish. It seems pretty common sensicle to me. If 10:00 is agreed upon, then I expect to meet at 10:00. I believe when a person is NOT on time, it’s rude and selfish- believing their time is somehow more important than mine. Seriously, it always pissed me off; a person had a 15 minute grace period with me because after 16… I’m walking. Hell, at least call me, I understand people get hung up from time to time. In defense, I knew things were different here, so I threw out my ‘grace’ period principle long ago.

Tico time is obviously a catch phrase invented by a gringo to ironically yet accurately describe in words to his North American friends as to why ticos don't appear to use a calendar or time device.

"There is no ‘time’ per se, there's only a task at hand and it happens when it happens- that's tico time."

They only give you a time because you asked. If you were to ask a lawyer when he thinks the documents will be ready, he’ll tell you a date, but it means absolutely NOTHING. What's truly mind boggling is when you don't even ask and you're given a date which is apparently pulled out of thin air. Here, they tell you what they think you want to hear, and when ‘that’ time comes, well, they’ll start the process over… and over, and Over, and OVER, without batting an eye. Sometimes I’m not sure if they really know it can’t possibly be completed in the time promised, or if they’re just fuckin with you. I’m sure it’s the former, but sometimes….I really do wonder. If the lawyer said a week, it’s at LEAST 3-4 weeks (or more). If your architect says the house will be ready in 4 months, you’re talking closer to 8 or 9 (or more). If they say today at 10:00 a.m., hell, that could mean 11:00 tomorrow. This is not a joke. Really it’s difficult to have, let alone keep to ANY type of timeline (that will just lead to more frustration)….let alone getting things completed in a timely manner- that’s not going to happen- PERIOD.

People say relax, or ‘Pura Vida’ (they will say Pura Vida if you ask them what’s taking so long- also very annoying) and if this tico time bullshit didn’t have serious ramifications and/or consequences, I’d probably say the same thing, but it can and does. Can you imagine trying to start a business or construction that needs some sense of coordination in which you’ve allotted a year to get things done- well imagine that year becoming two. If your house/business isn’t done at least close to when promised, it can cost big time money and money you may not have anticipated on spending. I would have to say legal (lawyers) and construction matters are the worst, but tico time applies to just about any situation- personal and business. I am not overstating and I’m not talking about unforeseen delays, everyone knows those can happen, I’m saying the delays are delayed… and then they’re put on hold.

Now there is another problem. They don’t call you, I don’t know why, but they don’t- I think it has something to do with confrontation- which they do NOT like. This means you call and don’t even think about questioning them or raising your voice, this will accomplish nothing, as they will become very passive aggressive, with your documents quickly finding their way to the bottom of the stack. This is how the game is played- You call in hopes it will prompt or remind them of the task at hand, then they tell you 29 reasons why it’s been delayed, and you say, “Thanks.” This process will be repeated….frequently.

What to do about Tico time? Absolutely nothing, hell, even monetary motivation doesn’t seem to help, can you imagine? You gotta become ONE with it, there’s nothing else to do. Take up knitting perhaps.

There you have it. So whatever you’ve read about tico time, multiply by 50 and it will be closer to the truth. I hope you’re not thinking I’m disgruntled, I’m not (well, maybe a little). I’m just attempting to give you a heads up.

Shit, I was supposed to meet someone for a drink about an hour ago. Oh well, Pura Vida!

Hey EVERYONE, check out hundreds of videos about Costa Rica- surfing, educational, vacation, music, wildlife etc. You name it, we have it if it concerns Costa Rica at: and a ton of information on Costa Rica in general at: EnJOY!

La Fortuna Costa Rica- Death by Volcano

I can't tell you how many times I've been asked as to why I chose to live, literally, right below an active volcano. I think what they really want to ask is why I'm such a dumbass, but they try to be polite. First, I should explain that I have somewhat of a love affair with Volcan Arenal, I'm almost drawn to it, not in a 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' type of way, but probably how some are drawn to the ocean, or perhaps the mountains etc. To me, it's like whale watching, which is something else I never get tired of. I'm not even talking about the lava thing, lava can't be seen from the La Fortuna side (although I love that too, and the last few months, the volcano has been off the hook). But I'm speaking of the volcano itself. Volcan Arenal is forever changing its face. I learned a long time ago that words don't describe the best of things, but a few do come to mind- magnificent, mysterious, stunning, beautiful, menacing, spectacular, threatening, lush, grand, overwhelming... I think you get the picture. It really is quite a site to behold, and if you ever get the chance.... (more on volcanoes) So, I feel priviledged every time I step foot outside my door and into the shadow of Arenal, and really, I never get tired looking at it. It's funny, most ticos here, don't give it the time of day, to them it's just another mango tree in their backyard.

Plus, the thing is, dying in your sleep is BORING! I want my great, great, grand kids to look over the family tree and when they come to my name, someone will say, "That's your great, great grandfather who lived next to a volcano down in Costa Rica and died when it erupted. It was said they found his body buried beneath 20 ft. of lava"

I'm quite sure one of the kids will ask, "What kind of dumbass would live right next to a volcano?"

I bet I'll be smiling when they find me.

For ALL your Travel Costa Rica INFO, check out our Costa Rica Travel Guide at: Travel Costa Rica NOW, and you're definitely going to want to take a look at ALL our Costa Rica Travel Tip Videos on YouTube. ENjOy!

La Fortuna Costa Rica

Our small resort is located just outside of La Fortuna, so we naturally moved there. Luckily, we like it. But what was once a quaint little farming town is no longer. In just three short years, literally hundreds of the Big 3- hotels, souvenir shops, and restaurants line the road from La Fortuna to Tabacon Resort (famous for their hotsprings) some 10 miles away from the center of La Fortuna. It’s quite sad really. And what’s a tourist town without those obligatory billboards, one as big and ugly as the next. Hell, we even got a Burger King and Churchs chicken, UGH! Older buildings are being torn down and replaced with more modern structures at an alarming rate, and always the same- a new hotel, restaurant, souvenir shop or mini-strip mall- nothing ever new or original. (Seriously, 95% of the souvenir shops here, sell the exact same stuff, it’s embarrassing). Here, they have a ‘Field of Dreams’ mentality- ‘If you build it, they will come.” And I fear they are very wrong. Some of these farmers have leveraged their land to build one of the BIG 3 with no idea as how to market- sadly sitting in their new dwellings waiting for tourists to happen upon place and wondering if they’ll make enough for their next mortgage payment. And now, competition is fierce to say the least. The mighty dollar has entered the picture and they all want a piece of the pie. The prices keep rising here. Everything is going up, up, up, and really for no apparent reason.

I still love La Fortuna. We have no car as we are in minutes of everything we need. We have a simple apartment overlooking the park and we have friends, not sure you need much more than that. Plus, there’s so much to explore and do here- the mighty Volcan Arenal, the lake and surrounding rainforest with its wildlife and beautiful scenery, not to mention all the cool adventure tours here- they ALL still do it for me. I just wish they would slow down a bit- regroup, make a plan and not be so random in their construction.

I suppose if it ever got way to commercial, we would just pack it up and find another adventure in Costa Rica, but you know us Gringo’s- get a group of us together and we can F*** up any quaint little farming town.


Sunday, October 19, 2008

The Tico Way

It was just yesterday I mentioned Tico's are a simple people- and they are. But we could SO learn a thing or two. I talked about how it's ALL about family and friends with them. It is so refreshing to observe this in action. Last night, just outside our window there was a big parade/street festival. No reason, no holiday, just because. They came out in droves- family, friends, coolers, blankets, food and beer. The thing is the parades are quite lame by out standards (just sayin), and always the same- high school band (I use the word ban loosely, since it only means drums and xylophones, they have no other instruments) horses, and a few Mardi Gras type costumes. But they don't care, it's all about hanging out with friends and family, the parade just provides the scenery. I mentioned that here, it's like the States back in the '50's and '60's, and it is. Remember the carnivals of old, where the entire town would show up everynight for however long the carnival was in town, well, that's the way it is here. They still get a kick out of the bumper cars, twirl-a-world, and the zipper. In the States, those rides wouldn't get the time of day, hell, the only people that go to those make shift carnivals now are beer-drinking teenagers and gangsters (yeah, I said it). But here, they're big events and everyone shows up. X-BOX is NOT an option. It is truly a breath of fresh air to witness a group of people that don't need to be entertained as they entertain themselves and each others company is all they need.

I wish it would stay like this, but the times they are a'changin, and the writing is on the wall. In about 10 or 15 years- this will be the States. So, I think I'll enjoy it while I can. Could you pass me an Imperial por favor, I have a parade to watch?

Tons of Costa Rica INFO and VIDEOS on the links to the right. EnJOy!

Saturday, October 18, 2008

Costa Rica- What's to Like

Costa Rica chose us, we didn't choose Costa Rica. The truth is, even when I was married my wife and I were talking about downsizing. We had the house, cars, motorcycles, leather couches blah, blah, blah, and we were SO over it. It started like it usually does- drinking with friends. Complaining and whining about being caught up in society's expectations and hype of always 'needing' something and how we would gladly give it all up and live the simple life somewhere else. Of course, the next day we went to our jobs- the night before barely remembered.

But then we won that house in Fiji, opportunity seemed to be telling us something. So, wife and kids to Fiji, me, out of the closet doing the 'gay' thing, but so ready to chuck it all as well. Two years pass by, my wife was doing her thing in Fiji and D'Angelo and myself finally had the opportunity to make our move- and we did.

I love Costa Rica... and for many reasons. I think everyone knows the country is beautiful, if you don't, then well.... and that's major for me, I love the outdoors, the wildlife, the vegetation, the rain, the tranquility of it all. Sitting on a porch watching Volcan Arenal do its thing, literally, I could spend hours. The beauty of Costa Rica may be my top 5 or 6 reasons for being here, or at least staying here. Obviously, I have to mention the money factor, as it's possible to live here for about a third of the price. I also realize I don't need 'things' in my life to define me. I like that. I like our barely furnished 2 bedroom apartment. I find it refreshing gazing out our window which overlooks the park, watching Tico's take advantage of a beautiful day. Kicking around a soccer ball with their kids, enjoying a picnic lunch with friends and family, socializing, talking, enjoying each others company. Free time to a tico is family and friends time. Costa Rica is what the United States was back in the '50's and '60's. You may say that's a bad thing, but in the areas of family life and socialization, you wouldn't have an argument. Costa Ricans ARE simple people and once you leave San Jose, this is obvious. Let me put it another way- Americans are mostly stupid because they are surrounded by information and experience that should lead them, to at least, a certain 'understanding' of things, but NOOO- their refusal to open their eyes is unbelievable to me. I find this stupidity unbearable to be around, but I find 90% of people stupid so.... I know this doesn't offend, because no one thinks they're in the 90%...hehe. At least in Costa Rica there's reasons for their ignorance. Again, out of the San Jose area, and this is obvious. I'm just speaking the truth. At least here they don't really fake it. They are what they are. You know what you're getting. I like that. I think I'll stay.


Friday, October 17, 2008

La Fortuna Costa Rica- OUT of a JOB

We had some money, but by no means could we hang out in a foreign country with no income for any length of time. We knew the way they ran Palo Verde that we would never see any monthly income, and almost 3 years later we were right - haven't seen a dime. We could last awhile, but we had to find something we would both be passionate in doing and that would pay the bills. The positive is the bills are about 1/3 what we were paying in the states. Unless you own your own business in Costa Rica, you can't really work for someone else, well you can, but it's under the table and there's really no future in it. You need to come up with your own source. We were thinking the computer was the way to go so that's where we headed. But what to do? My computer skills were/are fairly lame, although D'Angelo more than makes up for my shortcomings. T-Shirts? So all you have to do is design and market your website and the company (Spreadshirt or CafePress does the printing, shipping etc.) We realized we wouldn't get rich off this, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. I still think it was. We have t-shirt website called: Gay Boy Tshirts. Boy was it hard, and what a learning curve. You need to learn new programs, how to market on the internet, site optimazation, linking and the list goes on. It didn't take long to realize you can have the sweetest website on the internet, but if no one knows about it, then well........

We finished the t-shirt site and there it sits, hopefully working its way up in the search engines (we're on page 4 of google if you search gay t shirt...whoo hoo). Our neighbor and eventual partner told us about an idea he was kicking around- a website devoted to Costa Rica, but in a youtube type format- total video. He had a computer designer programmer/designer in San Jose already working on it. We thought it was a great idea (still do). We realized he was on to something, so we asked if he wanted our help. We knew he would say yes, cause he needed some capital. So, the was born. That was Sept. 2007. Now the website along with it's sister website take up all our time. And is it ever fun. It is already, but will be an even bigger website- hundreds of videos about ANYTHING Costa Rica- vacation, travel, beaches, surfing, music, education, adventure, information, travel tips, you name, we have it. Then there's the other part of the site, which is total 'content,' written pages about the same things, pretty much like a lot of other Costa Rican websites, only ours is better..hehe. Eventually we will have a virtual store, forums, sell tour packages etc, the whole nine yards. Our attempt is to put Costa Rica all in one place. But what D'Angelo and I do is video tape travel tips, sort of a video Lonely Planet Tour book. We travel around the country and tape our views and opinions about Costa Rican destinations and anything we else that seems interesting.

WE HAVEN' T MADE A DIME YET! It's been over a year now. But we don't care. It will work out. It's a great idea and we'll just keep plugging away. We have good people working on this and it will be a success, we'll have it no other way. I think we found our passion!


Wednesday, October 15, 2008

La Fortuna Costa Rica- Gotta Start Somewhere pt 2

I swear, I WILL get to more relevant topics about Costa Rica that you the reader actually care about, but just need to finish up the story of how we got here and decided to stay. Bare with me-

We moved right into the resort we're part owners in- Palo Verde Resort (pic on the right). It's sits almost at the base of Volcan Arenal in La Fortuna and comes with stunning views, and is surrounded by lush vegetation and howler monkeys- we're so excited to jump into our new life. So, we end up making a contract for us to manage the place. The major share holder, the guy I met in Vegas, had been running the place, and how do I put this delicately- he is not the manager type, but he seemed aware that this was the case. Without complaining, whining, or saying how we were deceived, I'll just say- things didn't work out. Luckily it only took us about 4 months to realize we were basically deceived and somewhat manipulated- I did in fact trust him and did think we were friends, so I did believe what he told me. The positive part about this story is our investment into the place and the buying of the land was actually a great deal for us. To this day we still own a 'piece' of Palo Verde, a quarter acre lot and its still a great investment. We just don't have anything really to do with it. Tensions had gotten so bad, we had to leave the resort (which we wanted to do). But this was a big shift, we didn't really have an option B. We had sold everything to make this happen........

Now what? Dreams crushed? Do we move back to the States with our tails between our legs? I think not and actually it was never an option- that was almost 3 years ago. We moved to the center of La Fortuna, right next to the park. We have a small apartment overlooking the park- and it's great. But what do we do now as we are not wealthy and we need to make money. I'll get to that later....

What't this mean to YOU? In your decision to make a major move, you really do need an option B, C, D, and probably an E just to be on the safe side. Things don't always work out as planned, especially here, where you run into A LOT of unanticiapted obstacles- especially in the areas of shading gringos, shady investments, shady tico's looking to take advantage (gringo pricing), and just plain bad information that could not have been foreseen. Looking back I'm not sure I would have done anything different, like I said, the investment was sound and it wasn't a 'shady' deal- and I really thought we were kindered spirits of sorts. But the BEST part- I (we) live in Costa Rica and I (we) wouldn't have it any other way.


Tuesday, October 14, 2008

La Fortuna Costa Rica- Gotta Start Somewhere pt. 1

I've been wanting to blog for the longest, but except for myspace which was so 5 years ago, had some other things to accomplish first. But now I am ready.

I think if people are going to invest time in reading your blog, they need to know at least a little about who's doing the blogging- a little personal background. I will attempt to be as brief as possible, but my life, so far, has been quite interesting, but anyways.....

I was married for 20 years (technically, I'm still married, but that's another story) I have 2 children, a boy- matthew (24) and a girl- Brittany (22). Unfortunately, the GAY thing got in the way of the marriage and we've been broken up now for 6 years (although she wanted to remain married- also another story). I'm gay, and can go back to the earliest of times, but I don't wear FAG* on my shoulder and it is a small part of who I am- I have brown hair as well if you get my meaning. I came to grips with it many years ago and really am quite over it. No disrespect intended, but don't really care what others think, life is too short. So, from time to time, I might mention gay stuff as it relates, or depending, but that's it. This is NOT a gay perspective blog ( but Do'in Gay Costa Rica IS) about living in Costa Rica as a gringo gay man, although from time to time...

In 2001, my family and I were on a reality show called 'Under One Roof,' and I will probably get into that more at a later time, but we won. And we won a big ass house on an island in Fiji. Afterwards, my wife, son and daughter basically spent the next few years making a go of it- working on yachts, crewing, traveling around Australia and New Zealand, living the life. We won a house, but our family had gotten quite dysfunctional after the show (also you guessed it- another story). I stayed in Las Vegas and came WAY out of the closet- even worked part time at a gaybar. Hooked up with the guy I'm still with, D'Angelo, in 2004. When I was bartending a guy came in and told me he owned a resort in Costa Rica. I'm thinking so what. But he came in 2 more nights, showed me DVD's of his place and invited me down. Honestly I thought he had other plans, but after months of e-mailing ("hey, how's vegas?" - "hey, how's Costa rica?" I decided to visit. Just to make sure, I asked him if I could bring D'Angelo, just so he wouldn't be 'thinking' anything. Long story short: after 2 weeks of seeing the country- bought ownership (small percentage) of the resort, bought some land, went back to vegas, sold everything, and me and D'Angelo moved here for good in November 2005.
