Episode 29: Turning your business passion into a company


All Xero Gravity episodes

Hosted by Elizabeth Ü and Gene Marks

Taking your passion from a hobby to full-time business can be a challenge. But not an impossible one.

On this week’s Xero Gravity podcast episode, Emma Chapman, co-founder of online business A Beautiful Mess, drops by to chat with Gene and Elizabeth about this very subject.

Between her tips on the ways to look after finances and your three-year forecast, to how to hire your first employee and balancing work with your personal life, Emma’s insightful ideas — inspired by her own journey — are sure to enhance your entrepreneurial skillset. So you can make your dream business a reality, too.  

Small Business Resources:

How to get your work-life balance right in 2016

A Beautiful Mess Course: Start Small, Dream Big

A Beautiful Mess

Episode transcript


Guests: Emma Chapman (EC)


Xero Gravity Promo



GM  Hey everybody, welcome to Xero Gravity. This is Gene Marks here with Elizabeth Ü. Elizabeth, hello hello.

EÜ   Hello, hello.

GM   We are having a great episode today. I'm really looking forward to it because it’s this conversation we're going to have Elizabeth; it’s going to be all about passion and turning your passion into a business. I'm interested in that topic and I don't know if you felt the same way when you had your own business, Elizabeth about the difference between running a business and having a passion for your business. Were you very passionate about what you were doing?

EÜ   I mean, let me think. I've probably started, at least for the previous two small businesses that I started myself, I was so passionate about these topics I couldn't not do it and since I was doing these things anyway, I figured they might as well be helping me pay the bills. I imagined that Emma was in the similar situation herself.

GM  Yeah, Emma is our guest and she's going to be coming on today to talk about her business that is called A Beautiful Mess. This is a woman that took a business that was; she had a vintage store I think with her sister and then she started up a website and is selling online. She's grown it to a bunch of volume. She's got a whole story to tell which I think is really, really fascinating. It is all about her passion. When it comes to passion, I just do my business more to make money, believe it or not and the profit. Because it's successful, that makes me feel good and I guess that's something to do with having some passion for it. I don't know, you mentioned about having a mix between having passion and making money in your business, right? I mean, you got to have both, right?

EÜ   Right. I would say, my first business I call that my MBA number one. I essentially invested a lot into it and drove it into the ground. This was before I had an actual MBA. That was a point in which I realized I needed to bone up on some of the business skills that would help me actually use this business to pay the bills rather than just me paying for everything and then again, having nothing to show for it. For so many people that are passionate about something and really thinking about what it would take to turn this into their full-time job and turn this into that thing that not only they're passionate about but it can also help them pay the bills and help them also engage with the whole wider community of people who are also passionate about the same thing. There's so many reasons why people want to turn their passions into businesses, and we're so excited to hear what Emma has to say about her experience with her sister in launching A Beautiful Mess, and growing it into over the 1.5 million unique visitors her website has every month.

GM I agree. I agree. So look, if you've got a passion and you want to turn into a business, this episode will be really important to you. You're going to hear it from Emma Chapman and she's going to tell us a lot about how she turned her passion into a business and I think her story will really inspire you. We'll be back in just a few minutes and we'll be talking with Emma.


Xero Gravity Promo




GM Welcome back to this episode of Xero Gravity. We're talking about turning your business passion into a company. Some ways about growing your company, maintaining your overhead, some things about starting your company. We've got a lot to talk about. We have a great guest that's joining us as well. Her name is Emma Chapman and Emma is a founder of the online office supplies business, it's what you guys do — it's called A Beautiful Mess. Welcome, Emma and A Beautiful Mess? What exactly does that mean?

EC My sister really came up with the name many years ago. She's the other founder and owner. She just wanted something fun that let people know it's a creative company and it's going to be a bit of a mess at times, not in a bad way, hopefully most of the time. We wanted it to be really inviting and personal and also I think that she kind of, I mean I think naming a company is one of the hardest things. I think she sort of just went with something and now, over the years, it's turned out to be great for us but she probably would've named it something else if it were today.

GM You have lot more creative juices to name, my company is called The Marks Group and my name is Gene Marks so that's not that exciting, is it? When you say it's an online office supplies business; so you guys sell office supplies? Does that mean you compete with the Staples and the Office Depots?

EC No. Not quite that big. Really, abeautifulmess.com is our main place. It's a blog and we call it a women's lifestyle blog. That's our launching ground for all sorts of products, one of which is crafty office supplies and we have a few subscription boxes we launched this year. The main thrust of our business is content creation, connecting with our readers and finding out what services or products they want and trying to create them for them. We do them all sorts of ways, one of which is office supplies as she mentioned, but also we have a couple apps out, we write e-Courses, we've created Photoshop actions, all sorts of different things; mostly digital but a few physical products too.

EÜ   I love that so your store has so many different doorways where people look and find out about what you're doing and how to engage and I'm sure, how to buy things from you.

EC Yeah, we share all types of content and it's also a great way to give away content for free, teach people how to make crafts or cook a fun recipe or whatever. Just stuff that's fun, but then we also can remind them about the great products and services that we're offering and if we are offering a deal at the time or just anything of that nature to inform them.

GM How long have you guys been in business?

EC The blog has existed for about 8 years now and we didn't start focusing on it as the main thrust of our company until about 5 1/2 years ago.

GM Wow! That's incredible. What gave you the idea for the business? This whole topic of our conversation is about turning your passion into a company. Is this the kind of thing that you're passionate about?

EC Yes. Actually, it was completely just a for fun thing we did, solely based on passion. It wasn't even really a business idea at the beginning. My sister and I owned a vintage store in our hometown of Springfield, Missouri and we had a lot of downtime while we worked there. We didn't have a lot of customers during the week so we would just blog and have fun with it. Over time, our blog really started to take off and we started to find ways to monetize it and it started to make more money than our local vintage shop so we decided at a certain point to shift gears and focus on that as our career. It turned out to be a really good decision for us although it was super scary at the time and also telling people, "Hi! I'm a blogger." At the time, especially, it was very like, "That's not a real job." I think, I still have a hard time explaining what I do for a living with my grandma but you know.

EÜ   I love that there was that point that came where your blog was making more money than your other shop. What other considerations or challenges did you have at that moment of turning this into your full-time business? Did you ratchet it up over time as you ratcheted down your other business? Or did you just close the shop all at once and say, "We're going whole hog into the blog"?

EC Yeah. For us, we really started, one thing we did is we hired a part-time person to start working in our shop so that we could spend more time on the blog as it was amping up. We still work there; we still had our day job as it were, but we started to focus more in another area and scale back and scale up on the blog.
I think the part where I really realized like, okay, we're really doing this, it's all in on the blog and we're going to have to close down the local vintage shop somehow, was when we made our first full-time staff hire for the blog. It was a full-time member who does sales for us, they do advertising sales. Once we had a full-time staff member it was like, okay. This was a real business now, it felt like it more. We knew it was a real business before, but I think that moment was just somebody's career and total income depends on this so this is serious. This is not joking around.

GM How many people right now do you have working for you?

EC We have five full-time people, two of whom are owners, my sister and I and then three other full-time, and then we have a couple of part-time. Our blog reaches — just to give you some idea — 1.5 million unique people every single month all around the world.

GM That is awesome. Tell me about. I'm curious when you went to hire that first person because a lot of us struggle with that. I know I did, Emma. I mean, it's a big step to take, so did you bring the person on as a contractor to start with? Did you hire the person as just a full-time employee right out of the box? What were some of the things that went to your mind? What considerations did you make or considered before you actually made that jump?

EC Right, yeah. I think hiring is a huge challenge that I've had both success and failures in so far with owning an online business.

GM Yeah. Join the crowd.

EC It's definitely a fun thing to talk about. For us, being the first full-time employee at that time, a big consideration was do I have enough money to pay this person for a sustained amount of time, obviously, because you can't hire someone if you're not going to be able to make their next paycheck happen. That was a big consideration. Once we felt like we had at least three months where even if no other money came in, everything dried up that second, we still will be able to pay them for three months. That's when we were like, "Okay. We can consider it." Then the next thing we thought about was we would have to hire in a bunch of different areas. I'm sure a lot of small business owners have the same feeling. There's a lot of things you'd like to take off your plate or that you feel like you're not necessarily the best at, and it would be better if you had a more expert person in that area. You don't want to do everything forever but like a lot of small business owners, you get stuck with it.

For us, we decided to invest first in the area that we thought could make us the most money and the reason wasn't solely out of well let’s just make us much money as we can, of course, you have to have money to run a business, but we also thought if we can get a really good hire in here, this is going to help increase revenue. Then we can hire some staff in areas that don’t directly bring in money in such an obvious way as sales but they're still needed. They still would be an important part to our staff but we don't want to hire them first because if we hire them, they're not going to necessarily bring in more revenue, that's not necessarily their job. We went with the sales position first and I'm glad we did. It really worked out.

EÜ   I want to go back to this number, 1.5 million unique people visiting your website every month. Now, that is the kind of thing that I'm sure many of our listeners would love to have coming to their website. Can you say a little bit about how you reached that growth in your visitors? I mean, I'm sure it didn't happen all at once or did it happen all at once? Did you have one major event? Did the growth happen more slowly? How do you convert those visitors into customers?

GM In other words, who did you bribe at Google to get that kind of a reach? We all want to know.

EC I know, right? If I have that person's email, trust me I would tell you right now, Gene.

No. For us, it is gradual. I feel like it's always a bummer whenever someone asks me like, "How did you get your website that large?" What they really want to hear is something quick or an email that they can email or button they can press. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. I wish it was but it took us a lot of time. We've had the website for a long time. Another thing is different platforms have grown over the years that really helped us jump to the next level. For us, we're a women's lifestyle blog so we share craft, projects, recipes, home décor tips, all type of things like that.

A big site for us was Pinterest, which is still a fairly new site, but I think it's really a lot more mainstream now. Most people are part of Pinterest or on it. We've used it before. When it launched, it was a huge game changer for our website because the type of content that their initial taste makers enjoy is something that's very similar to what we do on our site, so it helped our site grow a lot. We invested a lot of time in figuring out how we could make Pinterest work for us.

I would say, if you're looking to ramp up anything, finding where your company fits best, like Facebook, may be a great place for you, it's actually not for my company. Twitter might be a great place for you, it's actually not for my company. Instagram is really wonderful for my company. My readers tend to be really visual and a lot of, more women than men. Not that men aren't on Instagram, of course they are, but it tends to be a large women crowd there as well on Pinterest. And so those work really well for my company. I think it's just figuring out the areas that really work for you and investing in those areas more heavily.

EÜ   You were really looking at growing your audience at that point, but I'm still so curious about how that audience converts into actual sales.

GM For us, it's finding ways to, one is selling items that they want which I know is so obvious, but I feel like a lot of times businesses can miss that. Especially businesses that premise themselves on, "Well, I'm a taste maker, I'm a content creator, people come to me and then I'm going to sell them something later so I'm going to figure that out next, but the first thing I'm doing is building an audience." Which is where we fall in. What you really have to do all the time should be, "I have a great idea and I'm just going to go for it." But it’s like, well, I really should try to solve a problem or find a product that already exists that isn't very good yet, that needs improvements and find how you can improve on it in your own unique, interesting way that might fit your audience. I mean, there's a million great ideas in the world but if you can solve a problem for someone, that's going to get you a sale more than anything else.

We're constantly trying to find what our audience needs most. What needs do they have? A lot of people in our readership are also fellow bloggers. They look to us as, "These women have been successful in blogging, I want to do that too." A lot of our products and services that we offer are blogger resources. There are things to help you become better at blogging, taking better pictures, writing better copy, understanding how to monetize your blog, things of that nature. We find that those types of products do really, really well for us because people look to us as a place to solve that problem. How do I become a better blogger.

Fascinating stuff. Emma, who do you consider to be your competition? What you do is pretty unique. In the world that I see, I see bloggers and people that sell stuff online as e-Commerce sites and you do it all. Who do you compete against?

EC There is definitely other bloggers in our arena who do a similar type of content. They do it in their own style and they have their own brand. One of the other large sites that probably would be in our same category, they call Cupcakes and Cashmere. She has a home line and a clothing line. She's really cool. Her name's Emily and I think she's awesome. As far as getting people to check out your website or follow you on Instagram or Facebook or all that, one thing that's really wonderful about the internet to me is that you can have competitors, but it's also like you're not competing in the exact same ways when you're selling a product. Because if I have a customer and they want to buy a pair of shoes, they're only going to buy one pair of shoes. So if I'm offering a pair and my competitor's offering a pair, one of us is going to win, right?

If I'm offering some free content that people can view, the only thing that's stopping them from viewing my content and my competitor's is time, that's it. A lot of people make time to check out the blogs they want to check out or read the Facebook updates they want to read or whatever else, scroll through Instagram. You don't have to compete as heavily in that arena. But when you're converting into sales, you actually want them to click
“buy.” That's when you have to make sure you're offering something of value, because they may come to you for free content all the time because it's fun, it's entertainment in another way. But they're not going to spend money with you unless you're offering something of value.

I think for us, we're a small company, we have a large audience, but we are small company, so finding ways to compete with companies that offer our similar products that are going to be marketed to the same audience, we have to find ways to add value to it. But on a smaller budget, because we can't compete with Office Depot. As far as who can outspend, we're not going to win, so we have to figure out how can we be more specific or offer designs that are unique to us, or just something exclusive that you can't find anywhere else. For us, that's the type of thing our audience responds to best is if you really can't buy it anywhere else. You can only buy it with us because if we offer it, we're just not going to get the lowest prices if we went into some kind of wholesale situation, because we're a smaller company.

EÜ   Emma, I have to ask you, once you started having to think about competitors and making those sales and paying not only your new employees' salaries, but I'm sure supporting your own lifestyles, did it become a lot less fun for you and your sister to do this? I mean, this again, we're talking about turning your passion into your vocation. Did that transition cause it to be less passionate for you?

EC That's a great question because for me, the answer is yes.

EÜ Oh no.

EC I know. Probably sounds a little bit sad but here's the deal. I get to do something that I love for a living. I get to full-time do something I totally love. I think I'm totally blessed, so lucky. So many friends
I have, they have jobs and they're fine with them but then it's not something they're passionate about. It's just a job. For me, my whole heart is in what I do so I feel extremely lucky. The flip side of that — and I think most creative business owners feel this
way — if I'm making something just for fun, I'm making a painting, let's just keep it simple. I'm an artist, I'm making a painting. Whenever I'm not selling it I'm just painting it, I can do whatever I want. Anything that I feel inspired about, I can work on my own timeline, I can use whatever colors I feel like, it doesn't really matter how much money I spend on making this painting. It's just however much I have to spend on it is whatever, I don't have to worry about that.

Once I start selling my paintings, now I'm going to have to think about how long does it take me to make a painting so how much do I have to sell it for? How much paint did I use on this painting?
I have to factor that. I'm going to have to ship it. Now, my customers said they really don't like blues, they only want me to paint in red but I don't want to paint in red. What do I do? Am I a sell-out? You have to start thinking about all those things. So one side is, if you get to paint for a living, that's pretty cool. The other side is, you don't get to paint anything you want all the time. It's a job now. It's both, and for me it's worth it because I love my job.

But when I see creative friends, they're like, "Oh, I want to turn this hobby or this passion I have into a career." I usually do try to tell them, "Just so you know, this is the thing that you're going to be up against." Because it's a reality. It's what it means to do it as a job instead of a hobby. That's something that you really have to decide: if it's worth it to you or maybe you want to protect it, you want to keep it more as a hobby. It's more just for your own personal fulfillment.

GM This is this great stuff. Where do you expect to be in the next few years? When you look ahead, four or five years from now, where do you personally want to be? Where do you think you want the company to be five years from now?

EC You know, Gene, I ask myself that stuff all the time.

GM You should be.

EC Yeah, I'm sure you guys do this in your business. We try to do a three-year plan instead of a five-year, just, I don't know why. It somehow feels more attainable to me. I don't know. I'm 29 and I think that thinking five years ahead kind of freaks me out. I can't plan for five years. There’s a piece of me that's thinking that, so we do three years, and we're doing that over Thanksgiving. She was in town. We always get to this place where we just feel kind of stuck like we know what's happening within the next year or so. For example, this morning I just turned in my first deadline for a cookbook I'm working on. I'm going to come out with it in the spring of 2017. My first deadline was this morning and I just turned it in before talking with you guys.

I know that that's happening in the next two years, but will I get to do a cooking channel thing after that or have my own line in Walmart after that? It's like, I don't know. I mean, maybe I will, maybe I won't. Maybe no one will like the cookbook. It's hard to really plan for three years from now. I want to be this cooking mogul. It's like, wow, okay. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. Sometimes you have to roll with the punches and you sometimes have to plan. I think for us, we're very much like, we're an online company, we're young company, we do a little bit of tech and a little bit of other stuff so you have to be able to fit it in those environments because things change fast. But that means, do you not plan? Do you not have a five-year plan? It's like, no. You still need to plan. You still need to know what you're aiming for. If you don't, how are you going to know, how much capital do I need next year if I want to launch XYZ? I don't know but I want to launch it.

GM I get it. It works for me as well. I've been doing this for 20 years and when I look at my business, and things do change. I've always had five-year goals and they can be somewhat general, but they're specific enough like sort of cash and client growth and what I want my company to be doing five years from now. Where that's really helped me is that all sorts of things happen in your life and you've got all sorts of decisions and roads that you can take in your business, and I've always been able to go back and say, "If I take this road, will that get me towards the goal that I set for a few years from now?" If it's not, then I'm like, "Okay. Well, then I'm just going to have to pass on that opportunity because that's not what my goal is." I mean, everybody's different but that's kept me really focused.

EÜ   When I had my small business prior to joining Xero, it was definitely a passion company for me and I think what was so challenging is that it was so easy to let the business drive and then I really had to switch to thinking about, "Where do I want to be personally in three years?"

GM Correct.

EÜ   Not where I want the business to be because suddenly I had these visions of like bazillions of followers. That didn't actually matter because that wasn't the lifestyle I was after, so I find it really difficult to decide what are the priorities I want to make for myself versus the priorities that I should have for my business. I imagine anyone who's starting a business based on their passion faces those same challenges. Suddenly, you start thinking about the numbers more. You start thinking about the growth more and your passion runs away with you and suddenly, you're running along behind it rather than creating something that supports your passion.

EC That's a great point. I think we actually fall into that exact trap that you're talking about, Elizabeth, where we let our company drive more often than we should, because you get excited and you want to grow things and business can be very addictive. But then you're like, "Is this how much time I want to spend at work? Do I want to spend more time with my family in the next three years or more time travelling or whatever?" Making those goals can help you get there.

EÜ   I was just wondering, is that what you're doing during your three-year planning phase? Are you also focusing on your personal goals in addition to your company goals?

EC Yeah. That's a big piece of it for us right now where we’re at in our lives. My sister just moved this year. We used to both live together in Springfield, Missouri and now she moved to Nashville to help with her husband's crew — he's in music. She's starting to think about starting their family and so I think she's really thinking hard on, "Do I want to spend this much time working?" Because we work quite a bit and again, we love our job. It's really fun and it's easy to do that and it's easy to not think, "I worked the whole weekend." When it's like, "It was actually really fun. I did XYZ and I was excited about it." But when she starts thinking about family or just other goals you may have in your life, it's like, "I have to balance this somehow so I have to keep my ambition in check or make plans for my company to grow in a way where it doesn't need me as much." We're trying to figure that out and I think we're at a stage where I really don't know how to do that well. That would be an episode you guys should do next that I can listen to where you bring someone else on. That can tell you how to do that because that is one that I really don't feel like we have a grasp on yet.

GM You talk about the different things that you offer as well, we're talking about planning ahead and building your business and dreaming big and all that. You offer some kind of an online business course that you're giving to users. Can you tell us a little bit something about that?

EC We do. We were selling e-courses online over a number of different subjects. One of our best selling ones is about blogging, but we just launched a new one that is all about starting a passion-based small business and it's called Start Small, Dream Big. We're actually offering your listeners a special discount. They can use the code DREAMBIG, all caps, all one word, to get $15 off the course. You can find that at shop.abeautifulmess.com.

GM That's great, You were mentioning before that you're 29 years old so I mean, look a 100 years ago, you'll be considered to be an old lady, okay? You're now at the rightful age of 29 though, you've got quite a while of big experience. You're even running this thing for a few years now and you've taken some knocks. So looking back at your young and immature and naïve 24-year old self, we have the segment that we call “What I Wish I Knew.” What did you wish that you knew? What mistakes have you made along the way? What did you wish somebody would've told you 5, 6, 7 years ago before you entered into this business?

EC If I could go back in time in a little time machine and change something about the way we did our business a few years ago, one thing I would've changed — and we corrected it now, but I wish I would've known this sooner — is building out your monthly or quarterly, however you do it. We do monthly profit and loss report by different revenue streams or different ways that you make money. Because I think it's simpler: less bookkeeping and less accounting if you just take the big picture. It's like, "Okay, are we profitable? Where are we spending our money? Where are we getting our money? Are we profitable at the end?" This is done. Check it off the box because as a small business owner, you don't want to spend all your time trying to do that stuff. I don't.

I don't have a background in accounting or finance, so it's not really something I want to spend forever on, but for us, because we do so many different things, it's been so valuable for us to track according to different revenue streams, different products that we put out, so we can really see how much had we spent doing this project. How much did we make from it? Should we do more of it or not? Obviously, if you make money from something, you might want to expand on that area but it also gives you a bigger picture of where your audience might be responding to you, and where they might not be responding to you. Those are really valuable to know too because the goal is pretty much always to serve your customers better. If you can do that, they're going to be happy and you're going to be happy.

GM I actually interviewed a few months ago, Damon John from Shark Tank. He's like a super, really smart guy, very successful guy. He's invested in all these different companies. He said the exact same thing that you said. He wished when he looked back when he was first starting out that he had — I forgot the buzzword that he used, but it was like just financial intelligence — having the ability to understand numbers more, being able to look at numbers, categorized in certain ways, and understand math and accounting better. A lot of business owners go into business not having that sort of financial intelligence, and they get themselves into trouble. I think that your words are very, very helpful because I think you need to understand the financials of your business and get the right data to help you run it. In the end, running a business is really a lot about math.

EC I know, it's so funny. I mean, for years when I was teaching small business workshops, helping entrepreneurs raise capital for their businesses. Everyone thinks they need money and therefore everyone things they need to raise money but it's so much easier to stop losing money.

GM Right.

EÜ Like when you're saying to do your monthly profit and loss report or your income statement — whatever you want to call it — if you know which of your products are costing you more money than they're making you, you'll stop selling them. But if you don't run those reports every month, I mean, Emma, I just love this advice. Again, it's so much easier to not have to pay back that loan if you don't take the loan in the first place and if you can decide whether or not you want to raise money, or just stop losing money. These are the kinds of powerful decisions you can make if you actually have that insight into what's going on with your business. I love that and so for this and other business planning advise, Emma, can you mention that e-course again and what the promo code is and how long that's available?

EC Yes. The course is called Start Small, Dream Big, and you can find it at our shop, which is shop.abeautifulmess.com. And your listeners can get $15 off if they use the code DREAMBIG, all caps, one word.

GM Awesome. Emma, you're great. This is a wonderful conversation.
I think we've all learned a lot from you. I want to wish you the greatest success with A Beautiful Mess. It's just an awesome little business and I hope you have fun and make lots of money with it.

EC Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on.

EÜ   Thanks for the great conversation. Thanks, Emma.


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GM Wow! That was a great conversation we had with Emma, don't you think? What do you think, Elizabeth? What did you take away from that conversation?

EÜ   Wow! I have so many notes to myself here. She is just a powerhouse of insight. I mean, I think for me, one of my favorite things that she said in this podcast is that there are a million great ideas out there. But if you can solve a problem, that is the sale. Anyone that is passionate about something, just make sure that not only is it a great idea but it's also solving a problem for someone, otherwise, it might not actually be a good business case.

GM I also like that you had asked her about whether or not it was turning into more of a job. You start up a business and you're all passionate and then they're like, "Okay. I'm running the business here and I got to do stuff sometimes I don't want to do." She was very open and genuine about that and I appreciate that. Using her analogy of an artist and having the freedom to do and be creative, but sometimes you don't have the same freedoms that you had before because you're trying to run a business. I don't know, I think that's a really good lesson for all of us. If you're passionate about starting a business or running a business, that's great and you should always maintain that passion but let's be honest here, running a business and you've got employees and responsibilities and not all running a business is fun and games, right?

EÜ   Right. At the same time, she still counts herself as extremely lucky. I love hearing her gratitude in addition to her being so frank about what some of the challenges have been. Also to know that she is really taking the time. She and her sister both, her co-founder, really taking the time to sit back and zoom out a little bit and see it for, to do those three-year plans that are looking at not only the businesses goals but their own personal goals. To make sure that they're driving the business and not the other way around. That the business is driving them outside of what it is that they're hoping to create for themselves.

GM I think you’re absolutely right. Everybody, if you recall in our conversation, Emma's offering a great online business course to help you grow your business and manage your business as well and she's offering our listeners a special discount. If you’d like to take advantage of that offer, just go to our show notes at Xero.com/podcast and you'll get all the information you need there. Elizabeth, thank you. Another great show, had a really good time today.

EÜ   It has been, as always, a pleasure, Gene.

GM Yeah. Always a pleasure as well, and we're looking forward to the next episode. Everyone, we'll see you next time.


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