In the most recent welcoming blog about comment evaluation, something caught my eye.

In the sample unwelcoming comments, 3 out of 5 comments are seemingly posted by users who (almost surely, judging by the content) have already made a previous comment trying to get the OP to improve their code, but haven't got a positive response on that. A 4th is borderline that.

Of course, without the actual posts, I can't judge what exactly was going on, but it seems to me these users started out sincerely trying to improve, got ignored, and then went on to use a more serious/unwelcoming tone in their comments to get their point across.

I can imagine that users spotting a serious flaw, pointing it out, and getting ignored post such comments. It's obviously important to them getting their point across, and they've failed at it once.

What should we recommend users do in such a situation instead of posting an unwelcoming comment?

Related discussion about if these comments were rightfully judged to be unwelcoming.

Apparently, SE has chosen to change the blog post without a version history. The relevant comments from the previous version:

  • “No. As it stands the C# marshaler is going to call CoTaskMemFree to deallocate the memory. This is now rather a waste of time. You won’t listen to my advice. If you won’t work find out how the string is allocated you can’t make progress.”

  • “And this is tagged Javascript why?”

  • “Also, any time you have enumerated columns, you can be sure that something’s gone very, very wrong with your design. That said, you’re probably after LEAST(). But don’t do that. Fix your design.”

  • “For the last time, use the serial number code and replace kIOPlatformSerialNumberKey with kIOPlatformUUIDKey“

  • “Please provide a full compilable sample if you want anyone to be able to help you: https://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve. I have already told how you can bind to the property. If you can’t make it work, you are doing something wrong.”

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    Good observation. But your question can't be answered since we don't know the back and forth of comments that preceeded these comments. – user9455968 Jul 10 '18 at 14:35
  • @LutzHorn I hope to spark a discussion about the general situation (as I can imagine this is a frequently occurring situation), not about these 3 specific cases. I also hope an answer could be applicable to more cases. – Erik A Jul 10 '18 at 14:36
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    I reject the premise that the comments were inappropriate and that we wouldn't want people posting comments like them in the first place. Yes, the person asking the question might not enjoy reading them (having someone explain your mistakes is not an enjoyable experience after all), but it's what they need to hear (assuming the commentors were correct, which we of course can't know), and it's helpful information for them. – Servy Jul 10 '18 at 14:36
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    @Servy But SO thinks that it is better to be welcoming, even if you are not helpful. Helpful comments will be deleted, unhelpful ones that are welcoming will stay. – user9455968 Jul 10 '18 at 14:38
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    @Lutz which definition of welcoming are you’re using there? – Clive Jul 10 '18 at 14:39
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    I don't have such a definition. Does SO have one? They make the rules. – user9455968 Jul 10 '18 at 14:39
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    @Clive Whatever definition the people who claimed that the comments quoted in the blog were unwelcoming used. – Servy Jul 10 '18 at 14:40
  • @Lutz exactly my point... – Clive Jul 10 '18 at 14:40
  • @Servy I figured as much – Clive Jul 10 '18 at 14:42
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    If you've already told them what needs to be done and they're not listening nor ever going to listen, is there a point in saying it again even in an unwelcoming manner? – George Jul 10 '18 at 14:52
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    The professional thing, SO users ought to behave professionally. Same thing the boss would do, losing patience because they keep getting it wrong or can't complete their assignments on time. I've seen some behaving a lot less graceful than that :) But they can walk away, not what professionals can ever do. So perhaps they are being too professional. – Hans Passant Jul 10 '18 at 15:41
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    @HansPassant some users seem to have a warped idea about the profession, and think that it's all sweetness and welcoming. I'm sure that you, and many others, have been in management meetings where the blood needs to be cleaned out of the carpet afterwards. Some users don't want professionalism, they want what they imagine 'professionalism' to be. – Martin James Jul 10 '18 at 16:11
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    @MartinJames carpets? Never!. Ceilings, walls and the fan on the other hand ... – rene Jul 10 '18 at 16:21
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    I've requested an analysis on how new users respond to what they rate as neutral comments: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/312439/… – fbueckert Jul 10 '18 at 16:22
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    It appears that people these days skew the meaning of the word abusive and its synonyms. These days it means something like "saying things that somebody else disagrees with or does not want to hear". Twitter is already on board with this new meaning of the word. Is SO going towards this censorship as well? Where do we draw the line between "be nice" and censorship? – whatever Jul 12 '18 at 18:02

What should we do if users don't listen to our comments pointing out severe flaws?


If your comment is correct and holds true in the context of the OP your job is done. The OP will find out sooner or later that there was merit in your comment.

There is no need to put users through virtual medieval interrogation techniques to make them confess their sins.

Just make sure future visitors can understand why some practices are bad. Instead of



It might look like that Foo() will work but that will give you a Baz{} which behaves like a Bar{} until you FuBar it.

Just stick to the facts and if you find your self repeating yourself and/or yelling at your screen press CTRL+W as a stress reliever.

  • I agree with this answer, although for some people, I think that it is a matter of getting some kind of recognition that they understand the comment to ensure we don't end up being the programmer who gets to "refactor" their code once they <del>get fired</del> leave their position. – Heretic Monkey Jul 10 '18 at 15:35
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    ..or, instead of wasting any more time on expanding 'DON'T DO FOO!!' into something ten times longer and just as ineffectual, just down/close vote and move on. – Martin James Jul 10 '18 at 16:14
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    @MartinJames the idea is that you should have expanded in the first response, not after you found out your advice is not understood. But moving on (with or without voting) is fine as well. – rene Jul 10 '18 at 16:18
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    In other words, we should stop commenting and pity da foo? – Machavity Jul 10 '18 at 18:18
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    That comment was already there, they only quoted the nth comment. – Hans Passant Jul 10 '18 at 18:58
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    "But I already FuBar'ed the Baz, so what should I do next?" ... "Hello?" ... "@commenter plz halp" ... "@commenter y u not answr?" ... "@commenter I flagged u to the mods for being unwelcome!" – usr2564301 Jul 10 '18 at 20:05
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    @HansPassant yes, I expressed my concerns to a CM on how those comments were presented and I do hope the SE Data science team picked up that they are not reasoning about some abstract data-points but that there are real humans attached to those comments. The harm is already done :( – rene Jul 10 '18 at 20:25
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    @MartinJames If you admit it's ineffectual, what madness drives you to comment on it regardless anyways? Just vote and move on, there are 1000 more foo's waiting for your viewing experience :p – Magisch Jul 11 '18 at 7:53
  • I fully agree; Don't do FOO! is about as helpful to future readers as NVM, solved it. – Matthieu M. Jul 11 '18 at 11:01
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    @MatthieuM. a case Wisdom of the Ancients? – rene Jul 11 '18 at 11:13
  • @rene: Yep; I've run into that way too often before SO was a thing :) – Matthieu M. Jul 11 '18 at 11:15
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    @MartinJames Until you get the inevitable "why am i being downvoted???" comment – Michael Dodd Jul 11 '18 at 15:40
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    @MichaelDodd "why am i being downvoted???", like this guy. It took me about 2 hours to "be nice" to this person. I am not planning to do this again. – whatever Jul 12 '18 at 13:26
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    (continuation of above) And nobody even left any offensive comments. The guy started complaining just after 2 downvotes. It's not as much of older users being snarky, it's more about new users not understanding what SO is. – whatever Jul 12 '18 at 13:35
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    @AlexL yes, in my experience why am i being down voted is not a good pick-up line and/or conversation starter. Only when it is I would like to learn how I can improve my post you have a chance of getting anything useful going. For the former case, just move on. – rene Jul 12 '18 at 14:09

Vote to Close, Maybe Downvote

You cannot compel a user to act on your comment or even acknowledge it. You can only "incentivize" an edit or attempt to remove a post due to it being definitively noise by virtue of it being unanswerable.

Why Vote to Close?

From Help - Comment Everywhere

When should I comment?

You should submit a comment if you want to:

  • Request clarification from the author;

In the case where you are commenting for clarification, your need to comment means that the question is unclear to you. If the OP is unwilling to clarify, you should, per the close vote reason "unclear what you're asking", vote to close.

In the case where the OP has posted something that requires constructive feedback, there are other close reasons that could apply. For example, in the case where you are unable to reproduce the issue and ask what browser/version/whatever they are using or otherwise not providing enough information to create an MCVE, then you should close per "a problem that can no longer be reproduced".

Doing this immediately or waiting for the OP to become unresponsive is up to you. Generally I will wait at least a little while or even check the OP's profile to see if they have been online since I have asked for some clarification.

In effect, this is the intended flow since a question should be closed if it is unclear and then go through the reopen process if the OP is willing to edit their post into shape. Commenting and asking for clarification before voting to close is a way to shortcut the close → edit → reopen process and avoid the negative impacts that process has.

Why "Maybe" Downvote?

I'm trying to rack my brain for a possible example of a case where the poster writes a good question that meets the criteria for a vote-to-close (VTC) but does not meet the criteria for a downvote (DV); the criteria being:


If we made a Venn diagram of reasons to VTC or DV, I don't think that either would engulf the other or that their overlap would be so large that they could be used interchangeably.

Now, if the poster is actively hostile against your comments or outright refuses to add detail that would improve the question, by all means, VTC and DV. That behavior sits squarely in the overlapping portion of the hypothetical Venn diagram above.

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    Ironically, if this is implemented and people (quite rightly) downvote those questions instead of trying to get through, the -20 score may feel more unwelcoming than the comments. – Display name Jul 11 '18 at 8:45
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    If I would change anything in this answer, it's the "maybe". If the asker is actively hostile to SO rules or improvement suggestions, downvote/vote to delete and move on. – MSalters Jul 11 '18 at 8:51
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    Posting a question on SO as a new user and having it downvoted and closed without comments would feel much worse to me than receiving some comments that aren't overtly nice. I would greatly prefer to be told like it is than to simply be swept aside because the people making that decision decided they had nothing nice to say to me about it. – Lawyerson Jul 11 '18 at 8:58
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    @Lawyerson I made this exact comment on the MSE post about the CoC, but it seems like it's going to be either "Nice and not unwelcoming in any way" or "no comment" in future. – Magisch Jul 11 '18 at 9:22
  • I personally do not recommend downvoting after trying to be helpful. It just gives them a target... speaking from personal experience. – Patrick Roberts Jul 12 '18 at 4:09

So the scenario is:

  • OP posted a question which is unclear, incomplete, or otherwise not up to standard
  • I commented saying "X" (hopefully in a constructive and engaging way)
  • OP replies either ignoring "X" or saying it's not relevant or impossible or similar

(At this point, FWIW, in many cases I won't have downvoted [yet], but probably have close-voted.)

In that situation, I do one of two things depending on how the OP is reacting:

  1. Walk away: If they're rude, or seem to be unwilling to listen, etc., I just walk away (and if they were rude, flag the rude comment). Nothing I do having said "X" to start with is going to improve the situation.

  2. Engage a second time: If they seem to have genuinely misunderstood what I said, I might try explaining it a different way. If they say that it's incorrect or irrelevant, I might ask them why. Striving in both cases to be constructive and friendly.

    • Sometimes, when they say something isn't relevant or I'm mistaken and I ask why, I learn that they're right. Which is useful to both of us.
    • If that's not it, and they still aren't getting it, it's really situation-dependent. If I think there's someone acting in good-faith at the other end and really trying to understand, I'll stick with it, again striving to be constructive and friendly. If the person seems to be acting in bad faith, be unwilling to try things, be unwilling to accept something is true, or (bluntly) seems not up to the task of handling what they're trying to do, I'll give up, walk away, and hope that they figure it out or someone else can find a way to help where I didn't.

Whenever walking away, if the question as it stands then, having given the OP a chance to bring it up to standard, is "not useful," I'll downvote it. I used to do that earlier and then reverse it if the question improved, and I totally respect people choosing to do it that way. I just decided that I wanted to take that beat first.

Similarly, if the OP brings the question up to standard, I'll upvote it if appropriate and try to answer it if I know the answer and have time.

When I say "constructive and friendly," that doesn't mean kid gloves. It just means I make a conscious effort not to be sarky, dismissive, belittling, etc. (This has not always been the case.) That way I can at least lower the odds of what I write being read that way. And I'm mindful that written communication lacks the huge amount of non-verbal information (tone, facial expression, body language) that live communication has, and so the exact same words spoken can be fine, but written can be...not fine.

What I don't do (anymore): I don't say "For the last time, use the serial number code and replace kIOPlatformSerialNumberKey with kIOPlatformUUIDKey" or even a more neutrally-worded version (maybe?) like "Look, if you're not going to listen to what the people trying to help you are telling you, we can't help you." I used to say something like that when giving up. It was useful maybe 1 in 20 times, tops, and led to escalating unpleasantness the other 19 times. (And all 20 times it was stressful and unpleasant for me.) Eventually, I learned that and stopped doing it.

Everyone's going to have their own take on it, and I respect that; this is where I currently am.

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