Tobold's Blog
Friday, December 02, 2011
Those annoying gold tanks

At several points in the past weeks I have come across in World of Tanks people complaining about the Type 59 Chinese tank, a tier 8 medium tank bought for gold (thus real money). These complaints, in game and on the forums, very much echo those made earlier about the Löwe tank, a tier 8 heavy "gold" tank. People who don't drive one often find these gold tanks "overpowered", based on having had problems against such tanks in battles. That is curious insofar as gold tanks are actually weaker than regular tanks that are fully equipped, because gold tanks only come in a stock variety that can't be upgraded. Thus at the same tier and type of tank, you can find better tanks, stat for stat, among the regular tanks. So why do people complain about the gold tanks? Is it just jealousy or a general hate against paid-for content?

It turns out that many people have a very wrong image about what kind of player is driving those gold tanks. They think that tier 8 gold tanks are driven by newbies who couldn't wait for leveling up their tanks the regular way. But in reality that isn't all that often the case. New players rarely spend $30 on a tank before they even know how to play and whether they like the game, it wouldn't be very rational behavior. But players who already leveled up their regular tanks to tier 8 and beyond are quite likely to end up buying a gold tank for the purpose of farming money. Gold tanks have a very low repair cost, and thus make more money than a regular tank of the same tier. Play the gold tank a while and you end up with far more money than a direct gold to money conversion would have given you. And as the high tier regular tanks make often lose money or barely break even, a gold tank for money farming is a not uncommon investment for a dedicated player.

That not only means that the driver of the gold tank opposing you isn't quite the noob you thought he would be. It also changes the incentives, and thus the behavior of the tank driver. People in their regular tanks often play rather defensively at higher tiers, as repair costs are high. But that is less of a concern for gold tank drivers. And if you drive that gold tank to farm money, you are aware that the money you make is a function of the damage you deal, thus you have all the incentives of playing your tank much more aggressively.

Thus it is very well possible that a gold tank enemy ends up being far more dangerous and annoying than an enemy in a regular tank of the same tier and level. The gold tank driver is simply more likely to use his tank far more aggressively, and thus cause greater damage. The gold tank isn't overpowered, it is the player of that tank who is playing in a different and more aggressive way, making that tank effectively more dangerous.

There's a little more to it than that. While it's true that some, maybe even most, of the Tier 8 regular tanks are better than the gold tanks when fully upgraded, they take a long time to upgrade and spend a lot of time not as good as a Tier 8 gold tank. Also, themselves have admitted some gold tanks are less "average" than others, as evidenced by the increase in price of the Lowe.

Many of the gold tanks are average, or in some cases even sub-par, but the Lowe and Type 59 sit on the high end of the power curve in any given match due to having very solid basic stats, whereas many stock Tier 8 tanks are surprisingly weak.

While I find that as annoying as many others (no doubt due in part to making the mistake of buying a KV-5 before the Lowe's superiority was widely known) if a player is going to spend that kind of money on a tank they absolutely have to get something useful out of it. Getting a Tier 8 tank worse than every other Tier 8 tank out there would be a waste of money.
Some of them are newbs, though. Had a Lowe driver ask last week how you enter sniper mode. /facepalm

The real problem with the gold tanks is matchmaking. Both the Lowe and the Ty59 are given special matchmaker brackets that cuts them off from the higher level tanks that other tier 8s see, which means that lower level tanks see more of them.

Wargamer is, in effect, feeding lower level tanks to the gold tanks, and I think that is a very bad decision both from a balance viewpoint and a business viewpoint.
It's the internet. There will always be somebody to bitch about something. But you are right, most of the people with premium tanks almost certainly have better tanks they could be playing instead. Personally I have 4 tier 9/tier 10 tanks and a Lowe. The type 59 is the only tier 8 tank that I one shot on a regular basis, so I don't view the 59 as a particularly fearsome tank. The KV-5 and Lowe are extremely slow. They are only fearsome when you allow them to play to their strengths.

I think there's a lot of broke ass teenagers who resent people who have the disposable income to spend a bit on WOT even though it's those people that allow them to play for free.
Actually, it's pretty much guaranteed that there's fishy stuff going on, and you can bet it's about gold perks (tanks and others).
If you browse the forum, quite some people have asked for a WoW-style Combat Log, accessible after the game to see who hit what/etc. Or even a simplified version involving your tank only. Answer is "not available and will not be implemented".
Now, you think what you want, but for me it means "we don't want you doing statistics on fights". Or, to translate:

PenetrationChance = [big formula]

if (TargetTank->isPremium())
....PrenetrationChance *= 80/100;

This is exactly the kind of crap F2P games have been pulling from the start, so it would be no surprise for WoT do to the same.
I think one problem is balancing within the T8 premiums is basically non-existing. Any "balancing" is only up-front-cash and that does not change your multiplier, but literary the performance of the tank.

Second is balancing within T8, where the T59 is easily better than a T44 (at least at the moment). And only slightly worse than a Pershing or Panther II. In contrast a KV-5 and Lowe is quite a bit worse relative to their T8 heavy counterparts (even if the Lowe is closer than the KV5).

And last, but not least is the case that the MM bracket is lower, so T59 will not meet any T10H or T9M, but in contrast tanks down to T5 medium (like my RamII), who get eaten alive by them (max two shots and they are dead).

The population is also skewed, as in the last months I hadn't had a fight in my Ram, that didn't contain at least a few T59s.

Personally, I would move the T59 into Tier 9 premium with increased hp and charge a bit more. And potentially the same with the Lowe. But then just moving them into the regular T8 brackets could be enough (KV5 needs still to be changed, somehow, as it is a non-starter as it is).
My record on the Lowe is 147-6-151.

It's a reasonably potent tank, but I don't feel its unbalanced.

As far as why they wouldn't want to release combat logs, having a bunch of nerds overanalyzing everything would be lame.

WOT is based on real world tanks (or at least prototypes). Pure balance isn't really possible.
I was playing WoT just now and Alt-Tan=bbed out to surf while the loading time. I ended up here reading your blog about the T-59. Read the first paragraphed then went back to my WoT battle.

What do I see, six T-59 on the other and two on our side for a total of 8 T-59 ... I couldn't resist replying here after.

If the T-59 would be sub par then it wouldn't be so numerous. Players like it because they can just rush in make a quick kill before dying, thus maximizing the Reward/Time ratio.

T-59 tend to organize into wolfpacks naturally even in PUGs. Why? Because the T-59 tactics are always the same: RUSH for a quick battle and if you group into a wolfpack then it greatly increases your performance. Other meds don't do that, maybe because they use varied tactics, don't wantto get killed because the're aint a gold tank.

The number and tactics of T-59 are ruining the game. I don't even play my arty if I'm not in primetime, else to many hardcore tankers with T-59 are online. Better wait when there's more tank variety.

The worst part won't change a thing because it would upset these paying consumers. The problem is that I'm also a paying customer with my longstanding premium account and I don't play to start each battle with a T-59 rush.

When I play in a platoon with friends, the very first thing we check when the battle loads is how many T-59 are in the game. This before looking where our own tanks ranks, how many artys, etc. it has a big impact on the fun factor.

It is only sub-par in stats. It is so numerous for the reasons I mention: Low repair cost making it an ideal gold farming tank, much better than a regular tier 8 tank.
My Löwe has been getting into T10 matches (not platooned) lately while the Type 59 hasn't.

I am nearly done with most of the trees and grinding over 20 million credits to afford the 3x Tier 10 I'm still missing is going to take time, even in the Löwe and Type 59!
I fall somewhere in-between. I have disposable income, but not a lot of time to devote to the game, therefore I bought a T59. There are some matches where I die quickly because I get too far ahead of my teammates. There are other matches where I get 5+ kills (I think my record is 7).

My point is, just like in real life, you won't get far trying to paint everyone with the same brush. There are too many reasons to buy a T59 to say "everyone who buys one is a _____".

I bought it because it looked fast, and I didn't have any tanks at that point that were fast, which fit my play style. Now I use it to farm credits and XP that I convert using gold to level up my TD (up to Ferdi) and heavy (only at Tiger).
Have to say, I agree with some of what you said, i.e.- the majority (though by no means all) of Premium tankers are not necessarily newbs, but run these tanks to support there other "standard" vehicles. You did forget to mention one thing in that regard though, it's not just the fact that repair costs are lower, it's the fact that credits earned on these vehicles are much MUCH higher then a standard vehicle.
My clan has a habit of posting our most successful battles in the garage chat window, and it is nothing to see someone with a type 59 or a Lowe post even a loss where they've made $40-$50K or an victory of $80-$100K.
I don't really agree with you about the Type 59 in particular not being "OP". The Lowe is easy to kill and the KV-5 has a bb gun, both are painfully slow and not particularly dangerous to like or above tier tanks.
The Type 59, though, is more like a tier 8 1/2. It's basically a slightly nerfed T-54, which would be my number one played tank if it wasn't so friggin' expensive to run.
But all in all, if the 59 is a tad op, that's okay I guess. It's not like their aren't "standard" tanks that are a bit OP for their tier. the U.S. T-29 heavy comes to mind, admittedly my all time favorite/most played/will never be sold tank.
That being said, the one real gripe I guess I have about them is just that, while you can make a one time $30 to $40 purchase of a gold tank and support your WoT addiction for life, if you instead choose to be long term steady income stream for Wargaming by keeping your account premium but running "standard" tanks... you pretty much get the short end of the stick.
Why should somebody who paid Wargaming $35 once be able to run Tier 10 heavies all day long on a standard account supported by an occasional suicide run in their Lowe or Type 59 while somebody who's instead chosen to maintain a "premium" account every month gets to Tier 8 or above and barely makes enough to break even.
It's not terribly fair to loyal regular paying customers, and it makes no sense from a business perspective. I myself will probably be buying a Type 59 soon, but from that point on, I don't see much point in paying for a "premium" account anymore.
Long winded reply, I know, but this is just one of those things that makes wonder, "Why!?"
I was one of them that bought the KV5 the day it and the Lowe were released.
the gun on the 5 is underpowered however the defensive ability on the tank was nice till everyone found it's sweet spot.
Although I have over 1k battles in it it's still useful for the credits.
Outside of that while the R2D2 unit sits in front of it and remains it's weak spot and having an underpowered gun, it's not worth much.
From members of my clan who bought the type-59, most if not all do not like it. In large numbers or wolfpacks they can be a pain, but one on one they're just like any other tank.
I think the people who benefit most are the lowe drivers. While slow and not as manueverable, they don't make a bad sniping tank
Gold tanks, and especially tier 8 have an direct advantage over their regular tier tanks
T59 has the hull and turret armor from the T-54, T-54 that is a tier 9 medium tank
Lowe has the gun superior penetration compared to all tier 8 heavy tanks
So, yes ... the article is a total joke
oh forgot: the vast majority of premium tank owners, and in particular, the tier 8 premium tank owners do not know how to handle them
Type 59's are agile, fast and have a very low profile. Hitting the 'soft spots' is a lot harder on a tank like this, especially when it's at speed. I know - I have one. The other 'problem' is that there's a lot of them around, so you see quite a few per match, and if they stick together they can be a force of lethality that's hard to counter in a map with random players.
I would suggest you look carefully not just at tier but at same tier vehicles of the same weight class. I will discuss just the 59 here. The type-59, firstly, was not deployed during the same time as the Pershing, and its design reflects that. The armor thickness on the 59 in not exceptional, but the ridiculous slope of the armor ensures that rival medium tanks of the same tier (the much older Pershing) are unable penetrate the turret, which due to the low frame of the vehicle and the (accurately) low depression of the guns in WoT, is often the only part of the vehicle exposed to concentrated fire.

Admittedly the 59's gun is weaker and less accurate than that of the Pershing, but that is counteracted by its higher firing rate alone. That all said, a skilled Pershing driver that knows the importance of flexibility in sniping firepower and speed to run loops around his heavier opponents can outperform a type 59 in a match, but the combination of Speed, Fire-rate, Armor Thickness, and Armor Slope, make the 59 a clear choice over even a fully upgraded Pershing in a one-on-one skirmish at anything other than exceptional range.

Part of the problem is also that the Perishing, like many US tanks, is designed with strong turret armor, and the terrain at the top of hills or sand dunes in WoT does not accurately deform, which would allow most tanks to just bring their turrets over a ridge while still aiming down the far side, giving many US tanks a significant (and accurate) advantage. As a player of US vehicles I sometimes find it unfair that my vehicles from ’45 are matched against Chinese tanks produced in ’58(the 59 was accepted into service in 59 but built first in 58). The 13 years in military development makes a significant difference. Chronologically the 59 is much closer to the US M60 produced in 1960, which saw service through desert storm (and which would tear apart a 59 under most circumstances).
I think there may be a couple of inconsistancies here. First off your making the assumption that the Tier 8 premiums are really Tier 8. This is false. Look at the Matchmaker chart posted by Overload a few months back. All of the Tier 8 Premiums fall somewhere between tier 7 and 8 when it comes to the matchmaker. So perhaps an upgraded Tier 8 is better than its "Tier 8" Premium counterpart but it also faces tougher competition.

Second I'd guess the primary complaint of the have-nots is the proliferation of high tiers in their lower tier battles. Doesn't introducing profitable tier 8 tanks screw up players forced to use a tier 5-6 to earn money? With more tier 8's in the mix they will on average be put into more matches at the upper end of the scale.
All I can see during a match with several T-59's in, is a rush of medium tanks that are often moving as fast as my T-50 , with high sloped armour that my Tier 7's medium often can't penetrate at all , track shots are often my only recourse with the T-59.

If I'm on my SPG and I see 3-4 T-59's on the other side , I may as well exit as I won't last long.
I own Löwe and when T8 premium tanks started I also had KV-5. These tanks are great if you know how to play them and they suck if you don't. Of course they are better than a stock T8 heavy tank, they have to be, or they would be unplayable. On the other hand fully equipped T8 heavy is much better than them.

As for Löwe, it is a tank with superb cannon, that's it. The tank is much slower and has weaker armour than other T8 tanks (IS-3, KT). It is good on its own, but turns into great in a platoon with other T8 heavy.
KV-5 is not a good tank. At least not on its own - lacks in firepower and has some huge weak spots in the front. But still, it can be a terrible battering ram. Combine it with two KTs/Löwes advancing behind it and your worst nightmares come true...

When these tanks first appeared forums were full of complains and games were full of these tanks. They seemed overpowered, impenetrable and undefeatable. It was common to get in a game with 6 or more of these tanks. And now? We don't see them so often and when so than usually no more than one or two per side. Almost everyone knows their weak spots and can easily deal with them. Type 59 is just going through the same process. It is a new tank, first high tier medium premium tank. It is only natural that we see it so often. Give it a month or so and it should get back to normal. More and more players will learn how to fight it and its owners will start to be more careful and play it less often.

As for the “noob premium tanks drivers”. Tobold said it well. Not all premium tank drivers are noobs, most of them should be even pretty good as they have premium tank for credit income to help them with T9-10 tanks. On the other hand, not all T9-10 drivers are good players, some of them are actually as beneficial to the team as an immobile loltractor in high tier battle. I have met tons of these players. Owner of a T10 tank is not automatically a good player.
I own a Type 59, and without looking at the numbers, I don't really see an advantage in terms of the matchmaker, and my win/loss ratio 50/48 bears this out. You guys make these blanket comments about favoritism and it bouncing more shots, but unless you actually are on the development team, it's hard to back those generalizations up.

I think part of the reason everyone is freaking out at the Types is that they tend to group up, and yes, you do see many of them in the same battles. A wolfpack of Type 59s can be very effective, but no more so than a bunch of other relatively fast mediums working together in a group can be. If I am running my T20 or VK3001p I will group up with the Type 59s as well, usually leading to some pretty successful battles.

The proliferation of the tank as well as the tactics its owners employ lead to a lot of sour grapes, IMO. Everyone cried about the Lowe, too.

T-59 can reach 50 on a good day, on a road, going downhill. T-50 does 60 no problem if I'm not mistaken. That's hardly close. It's also slow to accelerate and not as maneuverable as most mediums.


Then other mediums need to learn how to play. Seriously. All mediums need to work together with the exception of the snipers who should stil be following behind others. As Tobold said, T-59 users are often experienced and stick together.

I play with and against T-59's and the reputation is worth a lot imo. When playing I bully others and use the fear factor. I also 'pack up' and stick with other 59's as I find the vast majority to be experienced medium users.

Playing against them I have no problem. Just shoot the bloody hull and other weak spots. The gun is under-powered so I can trade shots in most tanks. I eat them alive with my Panther II.

I have around 2k mathes in medium tanks and like the T-59, but have the same win-loss ratio and kill ratio with my T-20, and Panther II. I have better win-ratios with my E8, VK (H), and Panther I.

To be fair the matchmaker does help out and I'm glad. I don't use the '59 often but when I do I know I'll make some decent credits and that's why I paid the cash for it.

After reading all the hate directed at the T-59 I think I'm going to start using gold ammo now too, just to really stoke the flames :)
Kelly, you should look at the numbers. This is the official matchmaker chart:

Ty59 is in brackets 9-10. A normal Tier 8 is in brackets 9-11. That means a normal Tier 8 sees Tier 7+ SPGs, Tier 9 mediums, and Tier 10 heavies. A Type 59 never does.

Didn't you think that was odd? No GW Tigers? No T-54s or Pattons? No Maus or IS-7?

The developers are intentionally feeding lower level tanks to the premium drivers (they do the same with the Lowe) and it's BS.
Im used to seeing the Type59 around now, whilst it was extremely annoying when it was realeased (1st day I faced 6 of them and almost smashed something), nowadays I just find them to be another opponent to fight.
Every tank has its weakness and I find fighting the t59 doable with even such a lowly tank as my KV3, you just have to know how to play to your own strength.
Well as far as my experience goes Tobold nailed it, the reasons he laid out are exactly the thought process I went through when buying my Type 59. For me it was all about credit farming and I chose Type 59 over Lowe because I was farming to support the cost of my high tier heavy tanks so wanted a change of pace and also fast profit. I also think he is right about the play style, I play my Type 59 far, far more aggressively than my other tanks because more dmg = more credits and repair cost/re-arm are negligible and it also suits the tank tbh. Damn good post matey.
Speaking of newbs go check out my video series

you can see first hand how bad people can be.
I have No Problem with these tanks. that 59 is just fast like the 54. that's why its annoying

But My Problem Gold tank or not. unless u Pay for the game. you don't get crap for Money. barley getting 600 in a 3 kill alot of dmg game kinda sucks.

so i gave up on the game. Free to play is nice. but its not really free to play. you have to pay to get higher. DC Universe works Great with Free to Play.. no XP difference or money. i'll play that instead of this. i can have fun with my friends some payed some not and we do all the same thing and earn all the same thing.
@ Phelps I know what the graph shows about the matchmaking in your link, but I see teir 7-10 tanks all the time when battling in my 59.
I thought the 59 was really fast til I got one. They take forever to accelerate. I regularly bounce shells off tanks in places with armor of 100 or less and no angle. My Panther 2 gets less ricochets and is more accurate. I have also been damaged by tanks that I don't think should be able to hurt me. Although I've bounced a 704 once. Simple fact is, unless you own one and have played, you can't judge it. I truly thought it was much better than it is until I owned one. But I do like it for what it is.
Anyone who complains about them forming wolfpacks should go read the tactics section on the wiki. People are doing exactly what they were meant for. Move fast in packs, overun, overwhelm, and destroy. All mediums are capable of this, a couple E8's are just as deadly or better in their teir as 59's.
Driffinfool and previous posts are correct. A tank is not a mobile fortress like the "safe" layers think. Tanks were nevr designed to be solitary hunters despite what you hear about WW2. Wolf pack is the norm - pair up with people most love an extra pair of eyes. Most have top tier tanks as described myself no exception but we have the T50 and T59 because they are fun. We pair the T59 with T8 arty or T10 monsters as scout and flank protection, often a suicide run is the only answer to slow down an attack while the 120mm top tier takes 30 sec to reload. Remember the great Patriotic war where the undergunned T34 drivers would ram the Tigers tracks to disable them so the pack could slowly kill the beast. I do play more agressively in the premium tanks - as even when i lose i still get 30k credits not a 20k loss on the T54 or E50. Kill and eat !
I think he hit the nail on the head! That is exactly the reason i have a gold tank. To make money to keep up my other higher tier tanks running. It takes money to keep those larger beast running and that is how i make it. And i have also noticed i do play more aggresive with my gold tank too!
I have not seen that meny complaints about lowes in this game but complaints about the T-59 are through the roof. Personaly, I can beet a lowe in my Tier8 Pershing ,but I can't dent/ scrach the paint on a T-59. It has the tiny body and superly sloped turret that bounces even some tier 10 shots. I think that having 1 or 2 in a battle is ok ,but 3-5 in a battle is overkill.
I have 10 tanks in the garage. A T-59, E-50, T-95 and a T-50-2 among others. I also have Tier II tanks. I love my T-59 because it is cheap {7500 gold} vs a Lowe at {12,000 gold}. I think I got the best deal. One on one, I will take on any higher tier tanks. If I flank them and get on their tail, their toast. They can't shake me, and since they can't depress their gun, they can only hit me in the top of my turret. I am more worried about T-50-2's. With 3-6 arties per side, no one is safe unless they have a good rock to hide under or they are constantly moving. My T-59 is used for cash and experience to support my E-50 and my T-95. Because of their mobility, T-59's from both sides end up fighting for the same hills and positions that are stratigically important. Strategy in these games is non-existant. Luring a pack of T-59's onto a line of TD's would terminate the 59's but lack of coordination never allows this to occur in a regular game. I believe that sooner or later the T-59's will be neutralized when players wake up or when the dynamics of the game changes. I personally feel that the T-50-2 did more to change the game than the T-59 ever did.
they aren't so bad...but u have to wonder when every time match maker stacks like 3 or 4 of them on one team and that team invariably wins just how OP they are...
I am a good tank driver prem or not. What I laugh at is when they say wallet warrior! I think it's jelousy. Having said that, I would prefer "I have money and you don't warrior" vs wallet warrior. :P j/k all good times haha
i must say as a tier 6 medium fanatic. i can only win from a t-59 with 2 team mates and on a range of 400+ because i have strong frontal armour and nice slope on my jumbo sherman. other from that i get killed.
my tiger 2 can penetrate a t-59 from 5 meters. if it was possible for me to hit it... a one on one fight was painfull. only times i would live if i had a medium as a "guard" as they can block the t-59 so i could get a clear shot. otherwise it was certain death.So call them weaker as an other t8 is a huge mistake. Even a t-54 is easier to kill. but unfortuanly i don't see those anymore because everyone knows that a t-59 is better then the t-54, so they rather buy t-59 then grind all the way to a t-54...
I'm a normal premium account player but know i'm thinking of a premium tank. Just because they are worth more...
Well I own a Type and...... maybe I'm the unlucky one 'cause I see tons of IS-4 E-75 E-100 and IS-7 and pattons few T-54 I must say.

This being said, I agree with Tobold, I have others high tier tanks and bought Type to farm credits not xp, xp is on accelerate crew training, the reason is I sought a one time payment, so better pay 30€ one time than 13€ each month, also I play more agressively with my type even without doing nothing and losing you win credits so.... charge forward and shoot everything on sight, that's why type tend to wolfpack if put together, BUT !! they are as dangerous as 4 KT rolling down together with their long 105, doesn't matter how good you are, you can't win against 4 tanks working together

And all this people that say Type is OP, dude you must drive it first !! slow accel, and undergunned !! armor is useless, only front of the turret is strong and also has its weakspot, this reminds me of the time everyone cryed about T29 being OP, just shoot at the damm hull !!! Is made of paper with some glue.

Beta test is still up, try a Type and see for yourself if is OP or not.

Remind T-44 is getting LB-1 this new patch, so the one tank closer to Type is getting a buff
The Type 59 is a little OP. It has superly curved turret armor and the "body" is so small it is all tracks. I have no problum with the lowe because I can beat it in my Pershing but I can scrach the paint on a Type 59. Also they should change the MM(mach maker) setting so they don't get stacked 5 on one side and 1 on the other. I have seen a maus get over-run but Type 59s. So if they fixed that I would be fine with it.
I'm actually totally agreeing with this.

I am one of those high tier guys - I got more or less every top tank in the game by now.

I sold of all my lower tier tanks since I bought the 59 - and everyone in my clan has done the same.

We simply farm the 59 for credits to pay for our upkeep on the top tanks.

Platooning with your clan mates and doign 59 packs has become the norm in the clan, and I know lots of others doing the same.

I easily make 60-80k credits for a win. 30-50k for a loss. With maybe 10k in repair. My record is 127k for a single win. That means I can drive my IS7 for 6-7-8 clan war games without having to worry about credits. Its also what paid the gazillion of credits needed to have all top tier tanks.

I can tell you totally honest that the 59 is way worse than the other mediums. Wolf packing in the others is much more effective - but it just doesnt pay the bills on the other tanks I got.
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