Bright & Early Podcast

Getting Your First 100 Customers with Asia Matos

Episode Transcript

The following transcript has not yet been edited. I am slowly editing them, identifying speakers, and cleaning up issues; but I haven't gotten to this one yet. For now, it's helpful for some Ctrl+F action to find a pull quote.

Brian: Hey everyone and welcome to bright and early the podcast for people building early-stage startups.

I'm your host Brian Rhea.

I talk to entrepreneurs, product people, designers, and marketing pros to learn what works, what doesn't, and why; giving you at least one thing to apply to your business first thing tomorrow.

guess today is Asia Matos Asia helps ask companies and founders with marketing and growth she is the founder of demand maven and you can find out more about her there at demand maven IO Asia welcome to the show thank you so much super excited to be here really really glad to have you can't wait to hear a little bit more about what you're doing and you talked about on your on your site at demand maven dot IO about getting those first 100 customers so that's something that I know is going it resonates with me personally trying to build an early stage SAS and I'm sure ton of listeners are gonna be curious to hear what you would you have to say about that yes it is one of my favorite topics and also by the time that this is published in live I should have a brands making new case study talking about that exact process which I'm really it's really exciting story to tell really excited to push it out so by the time that's everyone's listening to this they'll be able to see the new case study which I'm really excited sweet yeah I can't wait to I can promise you I will be looking into that myself so before we before we dig into all of this tell us a little bit more about yourself what's your background and what was your intro to SAS and online marketing yeah so my background is 100% in marketing for technology companies and software companies which is a pretty interesting journey but just because my my degree was definitely not in marketing but I've always been very interested in technology so I started my career working for a technology consulting firm for about four and a half years decided I really wanted a taste of the product side and went deep into the SAS world and more specifically Sasson startups here in the city of Atlanta and for the past three years I've been working with SAS companies specifically and of course startups on the marketing side and the past year and a half I've been running demand maven what so what was your degree in I this is a little-known fact but it's actually an art and like painting oil painting get out my my degrees in art education Oh awesome yeah okay so I always love whenever a founder is like or or even just another person in the in the industry is like yeah like I don't really have a background in marketing and it's like I don't either but it just goes to show that really anyone can learn it anyone can master it you just have to be very diligent yeah I taught middle school art for like five years out of when I got out of college and it was through a crazy winding road then I actually started back in my teenage years but that I get back into technology but your so your your degrees in studio art like fine heart yeah fine art so I I was going to go the gallery route and bust out paintings and of course in the reality it's definitely not that way I mean it can be but such so few I think people are equipped to become a professional artist and I learned very fast that I was probably not going to be one of those people yeah was just it's just such a difficult difficult thing to do oh yeah oh yeah yeah I'm having I mean having almost nothing to do with talent and so much more to do as with luck and timing and I mean certainly you have to be certainly have to be talented and and good but there's an element of of just randomness that separates extremely good artists who cannot quite make a living from those who are just the upper tier that everybody knows their name it's crazy yeah exactly do you do you still get a chance to to what do you paint I actually don't paint anymore and I'm sure someone listening now it's gonna be like oh that's so sad and it's like well I mean painting was great but it was so isolationist like you have to be by yourself doing it I actually have turns more to music now I I play that ukulele I am learning how to play piano now I'm like saving up to get a keyboard I'm really excited about I sing I do lots and lots and lots of singing so I still express myself it's but but actually kind of prefer performing more than art but just because I don't mean don't get me wrong like I love like you know tucking myself away and focusing on something but takes 40 hours to do a good painting for me at least it's just like okay I need to find something that I can still express myself but I can do it with and around people so I've been more into music actually from like an expressive like creative perspective yeah yeah did did you have you always have you always played music or has is picking up the ukulele something you've done recently I did pick it up I guess I would say recently I picked it up in like the past year I played violin for four years years ago so the the instrument itself wasn't that into like super intimidating it was really more playing and singing at the same time that is hard I've got the hang of it now but even now it's like depending on like what the starting pattern is I mean it can it can it can trip you out so yeah I would say relatively within the past year I have picked up ukulele there's been things in that process of learning to do something new that is kind of has helped you as you apply that to your work or yeah you know I've never I've never been afraid of learning something new no matter how dumb I look or how bad I am when I start I actually find that exploratory just just devouring new information like that's something I've always been super passionate about I find that that has translated directly into the work that I do for my clients just in the work that I have done in the past I've been I pride myself in being very fearless and learning new things but I will say I mean I was awful when I first started playing and now I'm pretty decent but that's it yes Oh completely but I also think it's important for any business owner founder senior leader whoever you are out there it's important to have some kind of outlet some and it doesn't have to be purely creative but some kind of expressive outlet where maybe that's working out or maybe that's I mean it could be really anything but some activity that kind of balances out the you know being so focused and thinking about work etc yeah I mean I the the fearlessness and the the curiosity that I hear you talking about that just that comes across in though in in your online I think presence and your work you're fearlessly opinionated in you know just like the way that your messaging comes across and your your voice is so so clear and uniquely yours so I'd love to first of all just want to you know acknowledge that and I really like the vibe that that you put off I think it's inspirational and so I'm not surprised to hear that you've got this you know artistic creative expressive side so I I'd love to kind of love to dig into some of the nuts and bolts now you so you say in a you know one part of your site you know that somebody who engages with you for some services or works with you you say I'll take a deep dive into your SAS product your customers your competitors and so much more let's talk about that a little bit I've got an early stage sass lots of our listeners are building sass products or have some you know out there what are you looking for in that process in that deep dive yes ok so I love this question because it it really digs deep into every single facet of a business but then every single facet of the customer so the first place I start is just taking a look at what the landscape is today so what does the website look like what is the actual product what does it do what is the pain that it solves and also during this process I'm I'm working with the founder typically on understanding how much do they know about that pain how much do they know about how their product is solving that pain for people and oftentimes I find I mean this is this isn't that uncommon of course but you usually find that the founder has experienced it themselves in some kind of way so I want to know the backstory I want to know it would inspired it I want to know what the world was like when they built the product and what the world was like now and then from there we dig into customers so I want to understand how do the customers think about the the pain how do they think about the pain at the product solving what do they think about the product what was driving them to solve for a solution and who are they on just like a like a psychological level like what are their psychographics how do they what was their career like where do they go to for inspiration who are these people essentially and all of those things based off of the founders experience and their story the product that they currently have today the marketplace and the actual people paying for it it creates this this it's really like the perfect atmosphere for obviously continuing to build and sell product it's so important to start with just that those pieces are just mission-critical if if we don't understand what all those things look like then we can't it's impossible to move forward because your guests pretty much as good as mine right what what do you typically observe between the alignment of the founders backstory and how they were experiencing the pain and then the customers that you talk to and their experience of the pain Wow observations there yeah so it completely depends on of course what the pain is and what the background of that founder isn't and what drove them to build but I find that you you can usually usually that backstory is not only to the kind of draw connection between the founder and the customer I find that when the founder feels really connected to the customer it's easier for them to think about marketing it's easier for them to think about the sales process and part of part of this exploration on my end is seeing how connected do they already feel based off of what their background isn't and this might sound like it's not important at all and like it's a step to skip but what I find from a marketing perspective is it's easier to communicate marketing concepts when the founder is very in tune with what the customer is going through when they're not as aware or when they're not as cognizant or when we find that the way that customers are using a cart today is just the intention is just completely different from you know five years ago we we find that there's more gaps to fill just from an understanding perspective and just from a okay well now now I see how people are actually using this I intended it to be used this way but now I see that it's being used this way so now I can I can kind of shift my perspective and my thinking so it some sometimes I find that the founder is extremely in tune with the customer when that happens it actually the marketing process just gets infinitely easier the product process gets infinitely easier it gets it gets easier to prioritize features because the under the founder understands the customer extremely well but nine times out of ten I find that and this isn't a bad thing per se it's part of the reason why I'm there but usually there's there's there's a knowledge gap and so part of my role is to help fill that as much as possible so that way any any marketing initiatives come from a place of understanding so that's 100% the reason why we kind of go through the background yeah totally totally I mean there's so often there's the disconnect between what a business thinks its selling and what customers are buying and this is the benefit of doing the sort of work that you do working with working with working with you in that way and so I'd love to you know dig in a little bit more about which you can sort of call the first line of defense the website and so if you you know you get a bit of an understanding of the founders backstory the pain that they were probably having when they begin to solve it and talking to some customers what are what are some things that you end up doing or with what some of the advice that you might be able to offer to two founders who are listening to this right now yeah so after after we we kind of take a look at what knowledge gaps there are if there are any or what empathy gaps there are if there are any the next big step is okay cool let's let's apply it to your literal first line of defense and it is to me the website it's the place that it's where people go to sign up for your product it's where people go to buy we're not selling brick and mortars here we're more digital or on the website or maybe you have an app that people need to put onto their phones or whatever device either way it the website is the first place is going to communicate your value but it's also going to be the first place that handles objections it's going to be the place that just communicates exactly what it is that you're doing and I find that typically whenever whenever I'm working with a company it's it's rare to see a website that is checking all the boxes in fact I find that especially in the early days the website is extremely lean depending on your growth strategy and your priorities it might be okay to have it super lean but I find that nine times out of ten it's just not doing the best job of communicating exactly what customers are looking for and how it provides value to them so I typically start with strengthening what I would consider bottom of the funnel activity first and the website is a hundred percent bottom of the funnel it's where people go to sign up in the first place so I focus on okay what's missing here what's what is the number one thing that is preventing people from signing up in the first place what are we not telling them website is your first line of defense when it comes to competitors but it's also your home it's the place that you invite people into it should feel like you already kind of know them and that they already kind of know you I'm looking for opportunities to make that connection pretty much immediately and ultimately it doesn't and this is something I see a lot it I also start with a website because it just doesn't make sense for me to come in and drive a whole bunch of traffic drive a whole bunch of just acquisition activity around a website that doesn't ultimately inspire people so I always start with a website first okay so talk to me more about that and correct my correct my assumption you you said that you that the website we should look at that as bottom of the funnel oh yeah okay so I would think about I I guess in my head I'm thinking about the website as top of funnel and our I mean you'll sometimes see this right is like tofu tofu tofu like top of funnel metal funnel bottom funnel so I'm thinking about the website as that as a top of the funnel asset so yeah so so teach me like 'fuck okay mindset there you know so you're actually don't think that you're you're incorrect so I I do okay so there's there are many different ways to think about top the front a little funnel bottom funnel when I think about each of those buckets I actually think that the website the website should be tapping into each of those it should it is top of the funnel it is also it should also provide middle of the funnel and it should also be the source of bottom of the funnel now I do know that depending on the kind of SAS company that you are bottom of the funnel so a lot of people consider that like the activation stage like they're already in the product you need to get them to or convert I from a marketing perspective my top of the funnel middle and bottom of the funnel because I my background is demand John so I when I say bottom of a funnel I mean we're bringing them as close to the product as possible eat the the bottom of the most funnel step that could possibly happen is of course signing up and then of course converting but I actually consider the website to be a part of that it's because that's where it happens yes top of the funnel activity to me is very much like you maybe maybe you're paying for ads or you are you've got some Co marketing partnerships or maybe you've got some integrations or something like that that is out there representing your brand and drawing people in now it don't get me wrong it completely depends on who you ask that that is the way that I perceive it but I do think that the website is in every single one of those pages ultimately I think it just depends on who you're talking to yeah design-wise should we even it is that even a helpful way to to to visualize it that as you scroll down that the website itself is literally going from top of funnel messaging to middle of funnel messaging to bottom of funnel messaging or am I getting too literal maybe less of a design perspective much more of a different pages on your website are going to act as different medium through which you get to the bottom of the funnel so I would I would consider like if we were to look at the website in that kind of way and we were to kind of split it up in that way to me extremely bottom of the funnel content that's that's case studies that's that's telling really specific pain solving user stories around like what your product actually does because by that point people are considering they're okay their product aware where we're trying to get them to the most aware stage and getting them to ultimately convert whether that's signing up or turning into paid whichever ones depending on again your model this could look a little different depending on your model I think that's honestly like the number one thing that kind of dictates like where your website falls into everything but I find that if we think about the website in terms of really bottom of the funnel activity that is as close to the product as possible that means that we're communicating value we're telling stories about how to use it and how people can be successful with it we're talking about solving pain those are the things that people are typically looking for to sign up in the first place and then of course convert yeah our case our case studies the best concrete example of bottom of funnel content it's definitely one I would say I I call them user stories or just customer stories in general but but if you were if you were to let's see have multiple personas that could potentially use your product I would consider like persona specific pages so let's say you've got a testing application for the QA software tester but you might also have a senior QA tester well maybe each of those people have like their own like persona page and we're communicating the value about the product on each of those pages differently of course for persona I would consider that pretty close to bottom of the funnel we're getting hyper specific or unapologetic about talking and showing the product that's it that is going to be all ifs if we're doing this well that's going to be what gets people inside and they can see the value themselves and then from there you start looking at activation activities that's kind of where bottom of the funnel is also prevalent yeah okay great so let's say we've we've done that pretty well and we feel good about the you know the the first experience on the side let's talk about getting the first 100 customers what do i how do I do that what oh how do I go about getting my first hundred customers into my application yes okay I would say that the number one first step let's say it's built let's say you're starting to literally ground zero okay typically what I find is a lot of founders will go through the process of sales first which I actually think is is very natural extremely common and smart it probably doesn't make sense to jump into marketing and typically the first ten customers just happened because you've talked to a few people you've told a few friends about it you've told peers colleagues you you are you're actually going through the sales process after you get maybe the first 10 to 15 customers and the real customers are paying they're not just beta users although some some companies to go the beta route which is just as valid after you get the first 10 real paying customers you need to get them on the phone immediately get them on the phone and it's always terrifies every founder I talked to you they're always like oh god no I but you you have to and the reason why is because you need to understand them you need to I mean I mentioned this earlier in the conversation but need to understand them their mind how they think what is the pain that they're trying to solve like why why did they even entertain you why are they paying money for this who do they look up to what is their life like where do they get their information what inspires them I mean all of these things and this is ultimately how you craft this is how you this is reverse engineering the marketing cycle and reverse engineering the marketing process it's also reverse engineers the sales process especially if you have a free trial model self-service you don't always have the opportunity to sell someone on the phone especially if that's a strength of yours and if you and that's not a strength of yours then your website's gonna have to do a lot of this and it should anyway but this is how we start to reverse engineer objections it's how we start to reverse engineer acquisition channels you're gonna hear channels throughout this process where oh yeah I hang out like in LinkedIn all the time said no one ever but just that's just an example but this is where we start to really understand not only who gets the most value but where those people hang out what are their watering holes because and and the thing there is you you want to find out where they hang out so that you can start to listen hang out there be a valued member of that community as well that I could be a channel that you didn't think about maybe surfacing your product in it could also be you and in the strategy for acquisition looks just miles different for every single product and that's just because the customers are different the people are different no two customers are alike but there are very big patterns across acquiring the first 100 and your goal as a founder is to identify those patterns so you might find that there's a group of customers that they're all generally the same kind of persona they all generally hang out in the same places they consume the same kinds of content they listen to the same influencers or what have you and then and then you'll have a totally different set of customers equally as happy maybe they're more profitable they're not online at all maybe they are a part of like certain associations or integration partners or what have you I mean it could look very different and the ultimate goal is to identify the absolute happiest and best fit customer and figure out where those people are that is how we reverse-engineer the marketing cycle hey friends this is a great time to pause and let you know that bright and early is brought to you by transistor FM transistor offers you professional podcast hosting and analytics they host this very podcast that you're listening to right now and my friends I got to tell you it could not be easier I can tell you from personal experience as you also probably know podcasting is becoming one of the best ways to develop a closer relationship with your audience and so if you're thinking about starting a podcast trust me look no further just visit transistor dot FM and if you decide to sign up let him know that Brian sent you I love that phrase reverse engineering the marketing and sales cycle just removes it removes all the guesswork or removes a lot of guesswork anyway and it it's it's honestly the shortcut it saves you time energy money I cannot I cannot complain enough about how many people are like okay cool so we're just gonna like you know do Facebook Ads LinkedIn and like and that's it right we're gonna be done and it's like no no like because because you ultimately don't know until you talk to them so that's why I say get some on the phone right now yeah and it also it's just a waste of time to assume and I think that that's the I'm allergic to assumptions I can't so like the first step what are your thoughts on balancing the qualitative you know insights that you would get from these conversations with you know 10 or so real real customers that maybe you got through direct sales or you know outreach whatever getting them on the phone and getting some qualitative insights what are your thoughts on balancing that against quantitative surveys against larger numbers larger numbers of people yeah I would say if you in the first 100 customers stage qualitative is usually the the first place that I would start most I find that most founders don't have access to it might not have a network they might not have like a super engaged list of people that they just like subtly built over the past five years not everyone has that if they do then I would say yeah run surveys run do some of the qualitative things I depending on where a client of mine is they might actually be far ahead of the first 100 and they're trying to get to the first hundred km are are they might have thousands of customers already but they're trying to figure out how to get to the next stage I I would still balance out both where we do yes like the quantitative research and sending out surveys things like that but then also balancing that out with I try to aim for at least 10 7 is the minimum interviews that's usually enough to see the patterns but but I would say if you if you don't already have an audience qualitative is going to be extremely valuable it's also just so important like I said I found her to be close to the customer in that way yeah and I think I think early on I want to lead you and that answer anything but I on I mean I think that i think that qualitative feedback is enough to act on I mean that's you know that's the advantage that you have as an early stage founder is you can act very quickly and you can change course very quickly and I think that that's yeah that's I think that's that's an advantage that you should you should lean on so okay let's say if I have zero I'm early stage I've got zero budget to invest in marketing how would you recommend I spend my time yeah okay okay so if you have absolutely nothing like you're you're 100 percent bootstrapped which is not uncommon I actually look like a few of companies that are like that but they have absolutely no budget the first thing that I always recommend is okay if you don't have budget do you have time and usually the questions the answer is like no not enough I would actually so I would focus on high-impact free efforts and this has everything to do with the founders ability to prioritize what do they think are the most high-impact free marketing activities that they can execute on depending on in this and this is really taking a hard look at the product at this point because there are marketing opportunities around products that maybe we just hadn't considered before so for example are there any integration opportunities here depending on the integration partner it probably it could cost nothing to integrate except for your time which if you have then now now we have a little bit of leeway integration is one place I'd like to start I also like to start with just the website doesn't cost you anything separate time to build out the website these things can typically impact the conversion rates just overall in a in a good way from there I would look at building out some kind of again high-impact free-market activity like just building an audience in general doesn't cost you anything to be a spokesperson for your own company for your own brand doesn't cost a founder anything except for time to to build an audience content creation it does come up quite a bit of course this does depend on your customer what are they going to ultimately react to but I would look at like Co marketing opportunities where maybe you're working with another founder that you know of a company that would work well with your customer base or just your overall product I mean there's tons of free things that you can do they would require time but their high impact which is which is what I prioritize more probably than anything so what if I do have budget let's say something between 7,500 15k how would you recommend I spend that budget yeah this is where I would say let's look at what the funnel currently looks like today how much traffic do you need to turn into a free trial or a demo could be either one and then from there what do the conversion rates look like inside of the product because sometimes that that bucket of money could be used from like a copywriting perspective like let's say we're having issues getting people to convert we're driving traffic but people aren't converting as well into the funnel well maybe we could look at copy we could also look at positioning we can look at messaging just in general and after they sign up we could look at infinitely more bottom of the funnel activities like maybe the activation cycle is not strong so we can we can leverage that budget to get people to convert it to paid because something is missing so I always like to look at the funnel if we have budget and then if we really aren't getting any kind of traffic paid is a really easy thing to turn on paid media so like things like Adwords or Facebook Linkedin etc if you're going to spend money on any kind of acquisition in any kind of way I would try to make it I would try to position it as bottom of the funnel intent driven as possible so people are actively looking for solutions to their pain what are some of the channels that you could pay for that would put you in front of those people so Facebook is no intent it's really just persona driven or profile driven so people aren't looking for its solution and Facebook but but they might be from a search perspective yeah okay oh man there's there's so much I want to dig into on that I'm gonna have to ask you to come back on the show in a couple of months there's so much good stuff there people you all should definitely go to demand maven do pay attention to what what age is doing there so before we before we wrap up here just to two quick questions first thing I just want to ask what would you like to talk a little bit about your experience in tech as a woman of color so here's the mic what do you wish more people understood about your experience it's it's an interesting question and it's and it's one I 100% appreciate you asking because it's not a story that it's not really a platform that I've built in terms of talking about race or I would say gender probably more than race but um I don't have a ton to say about the experience so much as encourage more of us and hire more of us I it's it's it's I think touchy to talk about in terms of like my personal experience but but I will say from from an encouragement perspective I am all about encouraging people who don't necessarily look like you especially in the tech space and especially for women of color so if you have the opportunity to encourage a woman of color or really anyone of color and anyone who comes from any kind of diversity not just women of color but all of us I would say if you have the opportunity to encourage someone in tech please do and if have some if you have the opportunity to uplift someone who doesn't look like you please do that's how we all get better together and so finally thank you for that so finally working on startups can make you feel a little bit nuts if you don't actively work on your own sense of calm state of mind maintain some sanity are there any practices that you have found helpful that you would like to share with all of us yes I am I have always been a very vocal person about talking about Emily meditation but just being mindful for me it's all about what practice has helped me build resilience and what practice has helped me bounce back from disappointment bounce back from fear bounce back from anxiety there's all kinds of different activities and things that you can do not just from a self-care perspective but also from the resilience building perspective I think it's all about finding what works for you for me it's journaling meditation I I do just lots and lots of talking to friends any time with family and spending time with my husband all of those things it just impact my mental well-being and my emotional well-being and that's really really really important to me not only as a founder but as someone who works at startups which is the easiest place to dump all of your time I would say yes like I've got my things find your things find the things that help you to stay sane and connected and grounded so that to me is what is most important my guest today has been Asian Matos Asia thank you so much for coming on and spending some time with us today thank you so much this was amazing [Music] all right let's let's do some closing thoughts I thought that the term empathy gap was such a great summary of what happens over time between you know the initial founding of a company the inspiration of an idea you're either scratching your own itch or you've observed it so many times you know and a handful of of your audience base and then you know over over time if you're fortunate enough for the for the business to grow and for there to be more use cases more and more use cases added that you can't personally relate to the empathy gap just continues to grow and so I think that's I don't know it's one of those things where just having a having a a name for it I think just kind of gives it a place to live so I really like that term the the empathy gap and how it's its natural state its default state is to want to get bigger over time I you know this will come as no surprise to you I think the best way to overcome that is through regular customer interviews knowing your people and the context that that they're they're struggling in and what they're what they're trying to do and so keep that keep that gap keep that gap very very small I thought the bit of the conversation around the bottom of funnel content metal funnel and top of funnel conversation was interesting if you if you have an existing product or service that you are trying to sell then starting from the bottom of the funnel and working up obviously you want to address all of those pieces over time but if you have an existing product or service it's interesting to to hear asia's advice of what will go one step up from that as you get started either with you know workshops or webinars if you're selling services or with a demo site if selling an application that to begin there I think and often this is and this is why this is what I kind of enjoyed about is sort of challenged my own default thinking I think is to start way up at the at the lead magnet level you know and capturing an email address to get people into your into your flow certainly there's that probably there are plenty of examples of that as a legitimate approach and so I think it's it's just it's just interesting to think through how do ok what out of that advice apply to my business what is what is my offering where are my strengths who is my who's my audience and what are they gonna what do they seem to be what are they asking for where did I hear this recipient I'll fine I'll see if I can find this and drop it in the show notes but I heard somewhere recently was basically like you know the the object the point of all advice is not that it's ever or the way that you should hear all advice is not as you know set in stone absolute truth a particular example of something that worked in someone else's context and that you know the point of getting advice is to get a whole whole lot of it and then ignore it all and decide for yourself how does this how does what I have heard apply in my situation there's there's just no formula for yeah there's there's there's just not a formula that you can plug in start business do this step perform this thing and you know because context is so important I remember getting off on a little bit of a rabbit trail here but so stick to stick with me but handful of years ago I was at the business of software conference up in Boston and these two speakers came one after the other and one was like I mean legitimately seriously successful you know massively scaled SAS companies it wasn't in her common HubSpot but it was like constant contact and a HubSpot or something like that I mean you know major successes and these two VP's you know speaking back-to-back at a conference two founders and and SAS leaders giving nearly polar opposite advice on a topic and half way through the second talk I should never kind of laughing at myself and like jot at the note down you know in my in my notebook everything works and nothing works or something to that extent because like that's kind of how that's kind of how it felt was like they're saying the exact opposite they're giving advice that worked for each of them in their own context anyway to tie it back to what we're talking about here with bottom of like where should you focus if you have a product or service and then presumably you have a website that it's that it's trying to sell that thing what what step should you take do should you focus on improving your bottom of funnel efforts which are higher touch or do you focus up at the top on on top of funnel let me know what you think how do you think through that strategy I'm very very curious I can if that is I think about my own you know consulting services my own offerings over there I've certainly thought a lot more I've given more effort to top of funnel efforts and so big takeaway for me off of this episode is to is to think very seriously about high-value near the bottom of the funnel things that I can do for for founders and for product leaders so let's that's spend pretty that's been a pretty interesting thing I liked let's see yes she was talking about focusing also on high impact free efforts like integrations leveraging another platform Tyler tragus had a interesting tweet one second let me find it okay so he says the absolute best way to bootstrap a micro SAS is to plug into a fast growing platform like Shopify Heroku stripe and then he says the intercom app store might be the biggest opportunity for this right now so I mean he gives a couple of very specific solutions there but the overall thought is the absolute way to best way to bootstrap a micro SAS plug-in on the into a fast growing platform so I thought that that was interesting advice from Asia as well you know that's a potentially high impact not free in the sense that it's going to cost you time energy development and design resources etc but free in the sense that you know segment intercom those others that were mentioned you know have have api's that you can you can plug into and leverage their growth to to get some traction for yourself Benedict and Jane at user list recently we're talking about promoting their it's like one-click seamless integration into segments and so I'm that's something that I'm kind of curious to watch and follow them like hey how what what what did what sort of impact has that had so I want you know are there are there any integrations that you can look at somebody else's you know growth that you can that you can ride along with as well okay as always I would love to hear from you you can head over to bright and early podcast.com where you can subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe to the newsletter if you are interested stay in touch get some more of my thoughts on a weekly newsletter basis or just shoot me a message on Twitter I am beer a br h EA as in baroque realism Harlem Expressionism and abstract thanks for listening

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