Log for #openttd on 28th March 2016:
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00:24:52  * drac_boy is wondering whats with this rather small locomotive heh
00:25:18  <drac_boy> and is that stack tall just cause of the wagons? ;)
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00:34:40  <drac_boy> also if anyone could, when they see sim-a12 again give him this and tell him its re that subject on homeconverted electrics in the old days heh
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01:29:20  <Samu> Is there a build that lets me increase max_no_competitors = 14 to 15?
01:29:41  <Samu> at least, for dedicated servers
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02:35:02  <sim-al2> That vehicle looks very safe and well-built...
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03:34:42  <Flygon> * drac_boy is wondering whats with this rather small locomotive heh
03:34:50  <Flygon> Looks 1840s-1850s era
03:35:24  <Samu> heu
03:35:45  <Flygon> Samu: Not sure, sorry :(
03:35:55  <Samu>;a=blame_incremental;hb=17487321c4644d58c8fcced19a5f9cebc479870b;f=src%2Ftable%2Fsettings.ini#l106
03:37:27  <Samu> wish i could compile now...  with a change to that line to this - "max      = MAX_COMPANIES"
03:40:06  <Samu> that would let me set 15 AIs, I believe
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05:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i definitely do not get osx :/
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07:16:56  <andythenorth> o/
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07:20:05  <andythenorth> :o
07:20:09  <andythenorth> everyone is here :o
07:20:38  <Alberth> enjoy the moment? :)
07:20:55  <andythenorth> small things make the life
07:23:10  <peter1138> hmm, breakfast... easter egg or cereal?
07:23:42  <andythenorth> what kind of cereal is it?
07:25:37  <Alberth> make it brunch, and have both?
07:29:11  <andythenorth>;a=blob_plain;f=docs/landscape_grid.html;h=d34fe9840c9777b4f480142714c731779537b5ac;hb=HEAD
07:29:26  <andythenorth> is m1 5-7 free for all cases road needs?
07:29:37  <andythenorth> I think it is, but eh
07:33:06  <Alberth> looks like it
07:33:31  <Alberth> trees can have catenary too, nice :)
07:34:04  <andythenorth> didnât you ask for electric trees a few days ago? o_O
07:34:45  <Alberth> yep, and you made it possible, such a nice gift :)
07:35:15  <Alberth> does mean a ground tile with catenary can get a tree
07:35:38  <andythenorth> if I make this patch
07:35:48  <andythenorth> I will include an âelectric treesâ easter egg :P
07:35:57  <Alberth> :D
07:36:05  <andythenorth> available to build only during April :P
07:36:25  <andythenorth> ho, April 1 approaches, I should make a proper FIRS release soon
07:36:26  <Alberth> if connected from the powerplant, and build in April... :)
07:42:00  <planetmaker> \o
07:42:07  <Alberth> moin
07:46:44  <andythenorth> if I make unwise choices about bit ranges, that can be fixed later, eh? :P
07:47:24  <Alberth> yep, add functions to get and set the bits from the tiles, then it's just a matter of changing those functions
07:50:24  * andythenorth stops bikeshedding bit ranges :)
08:09:20  <Alberth> haha "Extreme" as economy name :)
08:10:10  <Alberth> /me makes it eXXtreem
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08:14:12  <Rubidium> andythenorth: road stops do not have m1 5-6 free
08:14:33  <andythenorth> they inherit from station?
08:15:05  * andythenorth assumes
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08:15:41  <andythenorth> judging by the current roadtype implementation, the bits used donât have to be consistent across all the relevant tile types?
08:16:09  <Rubidium> GetFloodingBehaviour uses GetWaterClass unconditionally, so the water class bits are important for all station objects
08:19:13  <Alberth> andy, indeed, that's why you have access functions. Same bits is nice for understanding but not a hard requirement
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08:25:13  <Pikka> isit roadtypes?
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08:30:15  <Alberth> for some value of roadtypes, yes
08:31:50  <andythenorth> Pikka: it is trams with and without catenary
08:31:59  <andythenorth> and doing that _might_ cause other types
08:32:08  <Pikka> fancy
08:32:21  <andythenorth> if I can do it
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08:44:58  <Wolf01> o/
08:45:03  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
08:45:52  <Alberth> moin
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09:07:10  <andythenorth> can the presence of each roadtype be inferred from the road layout bits?
09:07:42  * andythenorth wonders why 2 additional bits are used for road, tram which add no more information than the presence of layout bits
09:08:19  <peter1138> don't do it
09:08:42  <Wolf01> this is easier to understand
09:10:28  <andythenorth> what do I miss? o_O
09:10:47  <Wolf01> 4d is easier than roadtypes
09:12:46  <andythenorth> if bits set for road, thereâs road
09:12:50  <andythenorth> if bits set for tram, thereâs tram
09:12:54  <andythenorth> save 2 other bits
09:12:58  <andythenorth> whereâs the loss? o_O
09:13:30  <Alberth> increased complexity of figuring out what you have?
09:13:31  <Wolf01> you can have road in one direction and tram in another
09:13:50  <Wolf01> it's like you have infinite layers of road
09:13:51  <andythenorth> yeah, there are 2 sets of bits
09:13:56  <andythenorth> so thatâs covered
09:14:23  <Wolf01> also, you need to intersect with railtypes
09:14:34  <Wolf01> or disable crossings at all
09:14:57  <andythenorth> Iâm not proposing doing it this way, it wonât work if the types are more than ROAD, TRAM
09:15:08  <andythenorth> Iâm curious why it wasnât done this way already
09:15:18  <andythenorth> probably lost in the depths of time eh?
09:15:18  <Wolf01> road with tram with catenary with level crossing on bridgehead
09:16:23  <Wolf01> probably lost in headaches
09:16:57  <andythenorth> nah, youâre right, itâs the bridge case (and probably others), no road layout bits there
09:17:48  <Wolf01> (like I never tried and failed miserably :P)
09:20:11  <andythenorth> what did you attempt? o_O
09:20:54  <Wolf01> the same you ar doing now, but it might be easier now... or more difficult
09:21:24  <andythenorth> how many types did you attempt to add?
09:22:20  <Wolf01> just one more
09:23:09  <Wolf01> freeways (automatically built like one way roads)
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09:27:39  <Samu> hi
09:34:34  <andythenorth> Wolf01: for a while there was ROADTYPE_HIGHWAY or such lying around the code.  Was that you? :)
09:34:38  <andythenorth> painful memories?
09:34:56  <Wolf01> no, I never submitted the patch
09:35:32  * andythenorth is in the over-confident phase of this attempt
09:35:45  <andythenorth> there are only 59 uses of GetRoadTypes, how hard can it be? o_O
09:36:25  <Samu> @logs
09:36:25  <DorpsGek> Samu:
09:36:30  <Samu> keks
09:36:59  <Wolf01> like there are only like 12 uses of day ticks but no daylength patch worked reliably
09:37:26  <andythenorth> thatâs only 59 places to check the logic for, understand why itâs done that way, test it, and find the old and new edge cases :P
09:37:52  <andythenorth> one a week, it will be done April 2017
09:38:25  <Alberth> I doubt all 59 are unique :)
09:38:48  <andythenorth> hopefully not
09:38:53  <Wolf01> ottd needs unit tests, so when you change a core function you can be sure it works the same way at least for the original cases
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09:39:21  <Wolf01> trying everything by hand is what stopped me at a certain point
09:39:35  <andythenorth> it does get tedious
09:39:43  <andythenorth> compile, start new game, build stuff
09:40:13  <Wolf01> you might end up with correctly laying roads in strange positions without glitches, but as soon you attempt to run a vehicle over it it doesn't work as expected
09:40:48  <andythenorth> nah
09:41:05  <andythenorth> Iâm keeping scope too limited for that, I hope :D :o
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09:41:35  <Wolf01> I did that with stations on slopes, but I was blocked because trains ran down the steep edge at the end (if you put a rail there)
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09:42:15  <Wolf01> drive-through road stops worked really well, they only missed the right graphics
09:43:11  <andythenorth> the train bug is the same as building rail stations perpendicular to slope direction
09:43:21  <andythenorth> Iâve seen it, looks very neat
09:43:50  <Samu> I have a request/question ->
09:45:37  <Wolf01> I wanted to add grf flags to let only build stations in plain even on slopes, but somebody raised complaints about "if you remove the grf you'll trigger unwanted behaviours"... you aren't supposed to remove a grf from a running game
09:48:57  <Wolf01> :D
09:52:25  <Alberth> Samu: it's easier if you just repeat the qeustion
09:52:25  <Alberth> Also, what makes you think it's safe to change that? Limits usually exist for a good reason, in my experience
09:54:25  <Alberth> and quite likely, the limit is silently assumed to exist in other places in the code, so you'd need to check every use of company numbers to make sure it's safe
09:55:35  <andythenorth> my current headfuck is disambiguating âroadâ and âroad'
09:56:02  <andythenorth> interchangeably it means the grey thing with white tiles that is used by vehicles that have ROADTYPE_ROAD
09:56:13  <andythenorth> and also it means road tiles, and everything to do with road, including trams
09:56:21  <andythenorth> and in other places, trams have specific handling
09:56:30  <peter1138> Wolf01, curved stations!
09:56:37  <peter1138> like i did about 10 years ago ;(
09:56:45  <Wolf01> me too :P
09:56:49  <Samu> okay, my main issue is: I want to start a server that will always run 15 AIs
09:57:13  <Wolf01> but I didn't get them to work, so I started the sloped ones
09:57:32  <Samu> I edited game_start.scr and typed 15 lines with 'StartAI'
09:57:35  <andythenorth> so does DrawTramCatenary become DrawRoadCatenary?  Or DrawRoadTramCatenary :P
09:57:46  * andythenorth could roll a dice, then rely on find-replace
09:57:54  <Wolf01> I was pissed off by not being able to put buffers on the last piece of a raised station
09:58:05  <Samu> 15 AIs are launched when starting  the server, but there is a problem when one of the AIs bankrupts
09:58:24  <Samu> it is never replaced, because of the hard limit being 14ÂŽ
09:58:36  <Wolf01> andy, it should become "DrawCatenary"
09:58:58  <Samu> what can I do?
09:59:09  <Wolf01> let it generic, it might be used without tram in future
09:59:26  <andythenorth> DrawCatenary is ambigous, especially for bridges/tunnels
09:59:29  <andythenorth> due to rail
09:59:29  <Wolf01> also without road
09:59:43  <andythenorth> I ran into this already with HasCatenary
09:59:46  <Alberth> what catenary are you drawing?
09:59:51  <andythenorth> tram or road
10:00:10  <Wolf01> so why don't you unify the functions for rail and road? if you pass a roadtile you can skip the diagonal directions
10:00:54  <andythenorth> well that could work
10:01:12  <andythenorth> but I think the unified function is really two functions, hidden by a very large if/else
10:01:32  <Wolf01> also I remember an ambitious project to add diagonal roads
10:04:10  <Wolf01> I agree, but it's weird to check in really different places for code which almost does the same
10:05:56  <andythenorth> so looks like railtype has a DrawCatenary() method
10:06:28  <andythenorth> which lives in elrail.cpp
10:06:31  <andythenorth> that would need moved
10:06:35  <Wolf01> I like a bit of polymorphism, like when you have a DrawShape(Shape s, Point p)
10:06:37  <andythenorth> hmm patch gets big fast eh?
10:07:11  <Wolf01> yes, you need to think lots of things to prepare the terrain before starting the real patch
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10:09:02  <andythenorth> I would rather unify after testing the gameplay effect tbh
10:09:10  * andythenorth will just name everything RoadTramFoo
10:09:17  <andythenorth> because itâs easy to refactor that
10:14:25  <Samu> can a GameScript (GS's) execute console commands?
10:14:41  <Samu> like those busybees
10:14:48  <Samu> and such
10:15:43  <Alberth>    <-- this is what a GS can do
10:20:47  <Samu> GSEventCompanyBankrupt
10:21:32  <Samu> A Company bankrupts,  startai
10:21:41  <Samu> now translating this into code lol
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10:35:43  <Samu> nevermind
10:37:06  <Samu> is there a guide for configuring the OpenTDD\scripts files?
10:44:30  <Samu> i had an idea, but i bet this will cause more trouble
10:45:46  <Samu> inside game_start.scr: "startai", "exec game_start.scr"
10:46:00  <Samu> it keeps executing "startai" indefinitely, right?
10:46:23  <Samu> gonna try
10:47:48  <andythenorth> hmm
10:50:56  <andythenorth> ROADTYPE_ROAD and ROADTYPE_TRAM are also used frequently to access the road bits
10:51:06  <andythenorth> GetRoadBits(tile, ROADTYPE_TRAM)
10:51:58  <andythenorth> simply adding more types to the list will fail hard
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10:58:56  <Samu> openttd crash
10:59:07  <Samu> doesn't work
10:59:47  <andythenorth> conceptually, I either need a new entity, like a road subtpye
11:00:29  <andythenorth> or I need to patch some functions so that, e.g ROADTYPE_TRAM_ELECTRIFIED resolves to ROADTYPE_TRAM, but only exactly when it needs to, and never any other times
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11:04:01  <Samu> should I report this crash?
11:05:52  <Alberth> don't think so
11:06:10  <Samu> it's quite easy to reproduce
11:06:33  <Alberth> I have no doubt about that
11:06:37  <Samu> inside game_start.scr, type exec ./scripts/game_start.scr
11:06:52  <Samu> then launch openttd, click new game > crash
11:07:12  <Alberth> but things can't usefully be protected against infinite recursion
11:07:37  <Alberth> it falls in the category "don't do that"
11:07:42  <Samu> :) ok
11:19:41  <Samu> can i execute a timed console command somewhere in the script files? Every x seconds > startai
11:20:53  <frosch123> have you ever looked at ai settings?
11:21:24  <Samu> no
11:21:53  <frosch123> then try to find a pattern in what is the first setting of every ai
11:27:27  <andythenorth> are tram and road different roadtypes or different routetypes?
11:32:45  <Samu> AdmiralAI = start_date=1 - is this what you're refering to?
11:36:33  * andythenorth proposes RoadSubtype and TramSubtype
11:36:48  <andythenorth> subtypes make me itch, due to cargos :P
11:38:32  <andythenorth> what is RoadTypes (L36 in road_type.h) trying to provide?
11:38:51  <andythenorth> ROADTYPES_ROAD is 1 shifted by 0?
11:43:51  <Alberth> mapping from integer numbers to bit pattern
11:44:07  <Alberth> 0 -> b0    1 -> b1   and so on
11:45:19  <Alberth> otherwise you'd get  0x0, 0x1, 0x2, 0x4, 0x8, 0x10, ...
11:45:30  <Alberth> euhm no 0x0, of course
11:52:37  <andythenorth> ok, so if I added ROADTYPE_FOO here as bit 2
11:53:04  <andythenorth> hmm, no I thought I understood but I donât :D
11:53:35  <andythenorth> oh dear
11:54:13  <peter1138> i've got a patch for roadtypes somewhere
11:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so... OSX networking... i got MOST of it right, but i can't seem to work out the DNS settings
11:55:56  <andythenorth> probably your HD died? o_O
11:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> all the webpages about OSX and DNS say to edit the networking settings for specific interfaces in the GUI, but the problem i have is that none of the adapters there are actually connected. only the virtualbox network, which doesn't show up in that list
11:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried making a /etc/resolv.conf, but that apparently only affected the nslookup program, and none of the other programs (like ping, firefox, ...)
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12:01:04  <drac_boy> hi
12:01:24  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: does the modem have an interface defined?
12:02:21  <drac_boy> you two still working on this? :)
12:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the modem is on a virtual machine, the virtual machine has a network interface that i can ping
12:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the virtual machine has NAT and everything working
12:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i can ping the DNS server from the host
12:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and i can "nslookup <name> <dns server>" manually
12:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> just i can't get OSX to use that dns server globally
12:06:54  <andythenorth> hmm
12:07:00  <andythenorth> I only use the GUI
12:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the thing is, the virtualbox network doesn't show up in the GUI, only in ifconfig
12:07:26  <andythenorth> and if you canât add an interface there, bound to the VM, I have no ideas :(
12:08:08  <drac_boy> btw not to interrupt anyone here but what do you think of calling this thing "wearing a hat"? thats what I think when I look at it so..
12:08:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not understood the process of adding interfaces in the GUI
12:08:27  <drac_boy> (I'm sure that its real purpose was to shield the final exhaust system from the frequent snow tho)
12:08:43  <andythenorth> you only get interfaces that are registered somehow
12:08:47  <andythenorth> not sure where yet
12:09:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause ?
12:09:37  <drac_boy> (and for anyone asking, its basically a Gm 3/3 as in being grouped under diesel tractor with three axles total and all being driven)
12:10:16  <andythenorth>
12:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems way too complicated for a task so trivial :/
12:15:15  <andythenorth> might be
12:15:36  <andythenorth> but you need to persuade the GUI that there is an interface
12:15:41  <andythenorth> or you need to persuade BSD
12:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that has to wait...
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12:31:33  * andythenorth reaches the ârage quitâ phase of this roads patch
12:31:54  <andythenorth> :P
12:33:13  <andythenorth> roadtypes are impossible, Iâm going back to patching catenary
12:35:03  <Samu> what is the command line to join a server as a spectator? I tried but it says server full. "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -n :3979
12:35:21  <Samu> all company slots are used, but spectator slots are free
12:35:38  <drac_boy> andy, I always thought one road and 2-3 rails was enough? :P heh
12:36:19  <Samu> nevermind, i think i know how
12:36:27  <Samu> which company # is spectator?
12:36:29  <Samu> 255?
12:39:55  <andythenorth> what solution is there when same constant is used for two different purposes?
12:40:10  <andythenorth> and extending the possible range of constants for one purpose breaks the other?
12:40:27  <Samu> "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -n :3979#255
12:40:28  <Alberth> and you want it split?  introduce a 2nd constant
12:40:29  <Samu> it worked!
12:42:16  <Alberth> not sure how you jump from one constant to a range though
12:43:21  <andythenorth> by extending the enum where the constants are defined
12:44:06  <andythenorth> the enum maps the constant to bit positions
12:44:13  <andythenorth> constants *
12:44:42  <andythenorth> I have no idea tbh :)
12:44:51  * drac_boy somewhat wants to quote "english please doc!" from an old sci-fi movie
12:44:52  <Alberth> sounds like typical openttd style :)
12:45:01  <drac_boy> but thats ok tho, I'm not joining this subject :)
12:45:14  <andythenorth> it looks like Iâm supposed to use a bitmask somehow
12:45:26  <Flygon> Are we discussig how stupid I am again? :3
12:45:36  <drac_boy> umm flygon, hi? :)
12:45:38  <andythenorth> so that there is someway to pickout ROADTYPE_FOO as mapping to ROADTYPE_TRAM
12:45:48  <andythenorth> but it seems like a headache to me
12:45:54  <drac_boy> hows you flygon, any good weather there?
12:46:09  <Flygon> It's  Melbourne
12:46:10  <Flygon> Guess
12:46:25  <andythenorth> I am looking at someone elseâs design and trying to figure out what they wanted me to do :P
12:46:29  <Alberth> andythenorth: bitmask sounds like the answer indeed
12:46:32  <drac_boy> flygon well here theres still lot of snow on ground and now its 4C with heavy rain (and the rain is going be all day long too!) ... boring weather uhh
12:46:54  <Flygon> Lemme get a screenshot of the current weather
12:46:58  <Alberth> andythenorth: it's not designed to be extendible
12:47:15  <andythenorth> it isnât?  I read the comments opposite to that :)
12:47:21  <andythenorth> that might be the problem
12:47:24  <Alberth> it's designed to be easily readable (hopefully), but that's it
12:47:40  <Alberth> openttd doesn't code things for the future
12:47:44  <Flygon> It's dreary, it's overcast, and it's desaturated
12:47:48  <andythenorth> I have been staring at this for ~2 hours, thinking âthis design isnât workable"
12:47:51  <Flygon> Ignore the exploding car
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12:48:15  <Flygon> (yes, this is my local area :3)
12:48:25  <drac_boy> flygon heh, taking liberal with a movie photo :)
12:48:36  <Flygon> Taking liberal?
12:48:43  <Alberth> andythenorth: the problem with future extensions is there are too many, so you can never handle them all, so none of them is handled
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12:48:44  <drac_boy> too bad that the Falcon was basically an australia-only car, never got it in north america
12:48:57  <andythenorth> ok
12:49:08  <drac_boy> either way I'm guessing its afternoon or evening for you now flygon?
12:49:10  <Alberth> you might be lucky and it fits easily, but maybe not
12:49:17  <Flygon> 11:49PM
12:49:20  <andythenorth> so Iâm not throwing away existing work by extending it the way I understand
12:49:22  <andythenorth> maybe
12:49:30  <drac_boy> oh...guess I was a little off :)
12:49:31  <Flygon> drac_boy: Falcons originated in the USA
12:49:33  <drac_boy> its 8:49 here
12:49:45  <Flygon> They didn't quite become popular there
12:49:48  <Flygon> But took off, here
12:50:01  <Flygon> But, Falcon? That means my car's a descendant xP
12:50:18  <Flygon> LPG running Automatic descendant
12:50:25  <Flygon> Ill suited for the Apocalypse
12:52:07  <drac_boy> also there was that ford (I can't recall the model now) which was one of these many car/pickup hybrid's that were so popular between england and australia but very little to be found in north america :-/
12:52:30  <Flygon> Uuuhm
12:52:34  <Flygon> Name escapes me
12:52:35  <drac_boy> at least north america did get the Subaru BRAT ... and a modern version with rather short bed based on the outback legacy chassis
12:52:43  <drac_boy> funny name tho.. brat ... :)
12:53:40  <drac_boy> cute photo for an ad!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/subaru-brat-ad-1.jpg
12:54:09  <Flygon> That's how you get underbody corrosion >_>
12:54:34  * andythenorth had better learn about enums, yet again
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12:55:11  <drac_boy> flygon also would you believe that a pickup mini/morris was still useful too as much as it could only seat 2 person and umm well yeah not much cargo weight rating either? ;)
12:55:50  <Flygon> It's 500kg
12:55:54  <drac_boy> as for underbody corrosion heh well there are many factors but yeah a car with no periodical sprays living next to salty ocean could last a short time
12:56:03  <Flygon> Four reasonably fit men can carry it
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12:58:04  <drac_boy> oh geeze the old car reminds me of the photos I've seen of single or friends-coming-together drivers being silly with their Smart's
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12:58:32  <drac_boy> two friends together for one spot heh
12:58:55  <drac_boy> or this single deciding he could steal a spot that almost noone else could ever fit into (excluding a motorcycle rider)
12:59:16  <drac_boy> theres a thousand different examples online but these are two just to start with tho :)
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13:07:27  <drac_boy> but anyhow all that aside, what're you doing toward midnight now flygon?
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13:08:05  <Flygon> Dunno
13:08:59  * drac_boy is looking for some more specific photos to add to this project for now
13:09:18  <drac_boy> otherwise just a bit of irc and mm thats about it (stupid rain...)
13:09:40  <sim-al2> Drac_boy: I assume the extra high stack on that little locomotive is to get the smoke above the passengers
13:09:55  <drac_boy> hi sim-train :)
13:10:01  <sim-al2> Also, that little electric locomotive looks slightly dangerous...
13:10:04  <drac_boy> (sorry about that little name joke heh)
13:10:21  <drac_boy> yeah you're right, I was thinking "the axles look barely an inch apart, yet its more than six feet high??"
13:10:33  <drac_boy> talk about wanting to tip that thing over :)
13:10:57  <drac_boy> its probably only meant to run at 5kph .. some sort of depot/shed "pusher" maybe?
13:11:36  <sim-al2> Conrail built something like that:
13:12:01  <drac_boy> even then I'll rather trust the one in germany a lot more .. it was a very mini pusher but at least it had rather small axles set to a wider footprint than the stand-up cab itself
13:12:11  <drac_boy> can't recall the name of it but hm looking for it now tho
13:12:36  <sim-al2> Yeah, that thing definetly can't run that fast, looks like something that would struggle to push more than a few cars
13:12:48  <supermop> good morning
13:13:06  <sim-al2> hi
13:17:20  <supermop> andythenorth: iron crane?
13:17:33  <supermop> sort of thought out a possible scheme
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13:17:43  <andythenorth> o_O
13:21:02  <drac_boy> here we go its a Breuer Tractor as it was called ... had 10-80hp (date-depending) engine which apparently was mounted inbetween the chassis rails so its under the cab there
13:21:17  <supermop> kind of inverse to the pony idea
13:21:19  <drac_boy> cab -accessible coupler chain loop too
13:21:33  <supermop> but still limited
13:21:46  <sim-al2> Those wheels are crazy small
13:22:02  <sim-al2> Makes me wonder how good the brakes could be...
13:22:03  <drac_boy> well the wheels are only meant for depot shunting plus it kept the whole thing really stable :)
13:22:17  <andythenorth> when Iâm declaring a parameter which is going to be either 0 or 1 (stored in a bit), what type should I use?
13:22:19  <andythenorth> bool or int?
13:22:32  <drac_boy> btw these were usually designed to work turntables/transfers so its likely only moving one unbraked item at a time
13:22:38  <andythenorth> itâs strictly not a true / false flag
13:23:03  <Alberth> uint8  probably
13:23:20  <supermop> freight and high capacity emus (similar to metro) share the cheap track, high speed low capacity passenger trains use the "SG" track which is expensive and limited to them
13:23:35  <drac_boy> heck I recall one photo of an old Kof being used to move a big modern new C'C' electric locomotive off a turntable (I imagine the Kof's buffers were almost sticking off the end of the turntable..goes to show length restrictions you can find at times)
13:23:35  <Alberth> bool would be ok too, but it's not a number so you need to convert
13:23:56  <andythenorth> ta
13:24:07  <Alberth>  b ? 1 : 0
13:24:45  <andythenorth> that is a pattern Iâve seen elsewhere
13:24:52  <andythenorth> ultimately the values might be 0-3
13:24:59  <andythenorth> but I can only change so much at once, or I get lost :)
13:25:11  <andythenorth> I know how to handle a single bit
13:25:30  <Alberth> (b0 ? 1 : 0) | (b1 ? 2 : 0)
13:26:15  <Alberth> pair of bits is better done with uint8
13:26:19  * andythenorth saves that for later :)
13:26:28  <andythenorth> (copy-pasted to my notes)
13:27:30  <Alberth> with uint8 it's much easier, as it's already a number, no need to convert :)
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13:28:43  <drac_boy> btw about brakes .. these only had manual brakes on themself basically but as they generally only stuck to zipping around yards etc this apparently wasn't a major harm to the design itself
13:29:13  <drac_boy> and yeah many of them had about being able to unload a flatcar or other light cargos on their own :)
13:29:27  <drac_boy> too bad I'm not too interested in modelling netherlands tho
13:32:11  <andythenorth> oh
13:32:26  <andythenorth> m6 is not available for road tiles
13:32:52  <V453000> what mayhem are you up to andythenorth ? :D
13:34:14  <andythenorth> where are the available bits defined for tiles?
13:34:43  <V453000> no clue what do you mean
13:35:02  <andythenorth> error: no member named 'm6' in 'Tile'
13:35:02  <andythenorth>         SB(_m[t].m6, 6, 1, subtype);
13:35:09  <andythenorth> m6 isnât present
13:35:38  <Rubidium> me
13:36:57  <andythenorth> because?
13:37:12  <Rubidium> computer maths
13:37:24  <andythenorth> error: no member named 'me' in 'Tile'
13:37:40  <Rubidium> _me[t].m6
13:38:01  <Rubidium> after all, m6 is the 8th byte...
13:38:05  <andythenorth> ok, that makes sense now
13:39:27  <sim-al2> Those Dutch shunters are rather interesting because some (not sure about that particular one) had controls on the side, made to be used by a crewman standing on the footboards
13:41:06  <drac_boy> yeah the cab was basically "empty" I think
13:41:33  <sim-al2> Actually looks like those did, it's a later version of the NS 200 class:
13:42:30  <sim-al2> Apparently they only have manual brakes. There's not even an air system, so the whistle uses exhaust gases
13:42:41  <drac_boy> then again I recall some of the B units for emd F's basically had basic throttle/brake controls in a door on the side so they could be moved around on their own in the yard without having to fetch a cab unit to MU with them .. the engineer was mostly exposed to whatever was coming down from the sky on that day tho
13:42:47  <sim-al2> Also, the diesel fuel acts as the coolant
13:44:58  <sim-al2> Yeah, the B units have a very minimalistic control stand for that, just a brake valve and 3 or 4 notch controller (I assume limiting power for safetly reasons)
13:44:59  <drac_boy> oh the F7B apparently finally had some basic controls inside the body tho re #24 on here
13:45:34  <drac_boy> and this thing about holster controls reminds me of something related ...
13:46:14  <Rubidium> aren't those already out of service?
13:46:45  <sim-al2> Which ones Rubidium?
13:47:11  <Rubidium> both of the antique Dutch trains you showed
13:47:33  <argoneus> how are train friends doing?
13:47:39  <drac_boy> want know why that has a big grille on the cab locomotive itself? thats because theres a small diesel in there both for to limp the thing on and off the ready/shed track with aside to providing some power to start the main turbine engine with
13:47:59  <drac_boy> then again to turn a turbine on just to simply move the locomotive ten feet would had made no sense .. so this was sensible
13:48:07  <Rubidium> (in a museum doesn't count as "in service")
13:48:16  <sim-al2> I'm pretty sure they are by now, they're pretty old and a bit unsafe
13:49:05  <Rubidium> but only like 20 years older than crap that is still running "for profit"
13:49:25  <sim-al2> This seems like the designated replacement:
13:50:54  <Rubidium> <- antique of +- 60 years old
13:50:56  * andythenorth asks stupid question: how to OR the results of two functions which both return bool?
13:51:06  <andythenorth> google does not help with âC++ OR two valuesâ :P
13:51:28  <drac_boy> the crazy thing is I know a magazine I got (no online copy tho) showed one of these 3-units turbine coupled to the one and only one Century 855B that ever existed (yep..kinda funny to think of a 8500hp turbine and 5500hp diesel paired together on a supersized freight train)
13:51:43  <Rubidium> andythenorth: binary || or logical |
13:51:48  <drac_boy> heres the 855B if you want sim
13:52:08  <sim-al2> Rubidium, at least the crew doesn't have to hang off the side of those during regular operation (also that has air brakes and other fun useful features :p)
13:52:18  <drac_boy> (on that footnote: UP did actually have three of the 855's tho)
13:52:37  <andythenorth> thanks
13:52:41  <andythenorth> was binary not logical
13:53:05  <Rubidium> sim-al2: except that... you can easily overlook low signals in that type
13:53:17  <sim-al2> Hmmm, could the turbines and the Alcos actually MU? I think the turbines had a 20 notch MU system, since they were made to run alone or at most in pairs
13:53:31  <drac_boy> rubidium if you want a modern small electric shunter you always could check about this?ÃÂ©%20Stadler%20Rail%20-%205.jpg.spooler.galleryimage.800.jpg/1317041607242/Ee922%20ÃÂ©%20Stadler%20Rail%20-%205.jpg
13:53:41  <drac_boy> huh...sorry weird url
13:54:25  <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. well the up turbines were built with diesel-compatible MU apparently as so many times they were mixed together with anything .. even one GTEL leading five random geeps too
13:54:29  <andythenorth> SPAD
13:56:05  <drac_boy> ah I found one where even a FA-FB set is included too for some reason
13:56:26  <drac_boy> it just shows you what a "just throw anything out of the shed onto the line whatever" mentality UP sometimes seem to have had
13:57:31  <drac_boy> I've even seen (personally, and no I didn't have a camera sorry) a CP train being a SW1200 or alike switcher leading two Dash locomotives on a long train at roughly 30-50kph .. bit weird if you ask me
14:00:13  <sim-al2> Hmm, maybe the weird MU setup was limited to the early Coal Turbine
14:00:26  <peter1138> damn this wind
14:00:29  <drac_boy> the single-unit one pre-8500hp? could be
14:00:47  * drac_boy gives peter1138 a sail? :)
14:00:55  <drac_boy> sorry if that doesn't really help heh
14:00:57  <sim-al2> Hmm, no fuel tender either
14:00:58  <peter1138> heh
14:01:03  <peter1138> not much cop in a head wind :)
14:01:38  <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah the fuel was a diesel-like tank under chassis .. apparently the dedicated ex-steam tender was to cure the problem of very short range
14:01:53  <drac_boy> peter1138 ah, unless you can zigzag a lot yeah its useless :-s
14:03:02  <drac_boy> (as I recall the sail book said that to go right into a headwind you hold a zigzag course so at least the wind gives you a bit of forward power ... makes for a very slow actual forward speed tho ofc
14:03:06  <sim-al2> Looks like a first gen unit, with no walkways and numbered X52, so only 4500 hp
14:03:26  <drac_boy> yep, engineers didn't like that one a lot... walking right next to the exposed turbine unit inside :-s
14:03:41  <drac_boy> thats why they had the "hollowed out" sides with outter walkways
14:04:37  <andythenorth> peter1138: are you _still_ trying to make breakfast? :o
14:04:47  * drac_boy throws andy a cooked egg :)
14:06:47  <sim-al2> Interesting train this one is hauling:
14:07:07  <andythenorth> pacific fruit express no?
14:07:08  <drac_boy> oh about homemade tractors .. this is one that PRR did themself at least it seem to had been a sensible one but dunno how long it lasted for tho. I suspect that the four tanks are a split of 2 fuel and 2 air or perhaps at least 3 fuel and 1 air
14:07:12  <andythenorth> express reefer train
14:07:17  <sim-al2> Looks like a refrigerated fruit train
14:07:47  * andythenorth tries to write code not in header files
14:07:53  <andythenorth> compiles are much faster :P
14:07:54  <drac_boy> and look at that exposed radiator, the lower pipe seem to be running away to somewhere else
14:12:52  <sim-al2> The exposed radiator seems common on early gasoline engined units
14:17:36  <sim-al2> I can't really think of where that pipe goes, unless there's a water tank (or drain) on the underside
14:20:37  <supermop> horse not on bananas?
14:21:32  <drac_boy> either way I'm going off irc for now so have fun ok sim-a12? (me want go back to more images note-writing here)
14:21:41  <sim-al2> Alright take care
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14:25:15  <andythenorth> horse alpha on bananas
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14:32:34  <supermop> not getting any non-pony rosters in what i found, when searching with 1.6.0 rc1
14:33:28  <andythenorth> oh horse not hog
14:33:32  <andythenorth> sorry :)
14:33:37  * andythenorth had head in uint8 :P
14:36:13  <Samu> on a dedicated server, how could I tell which is taking more cpu usage between AIs and currently running vehicles deployed in the world?
14:38:25  <supermop> do i have to get antelope from devzone?
14:38:45  <andythenorth> yes
14:38:52  <andythenorth> itâs unreleasable, and bananas
14:39:07  <supermop> unreleasable?
14:42:25  <andythenorth> would simply provoke bug reports about broken sprites
14:42:30  <andythenorth> pointless
14:43:01  <supermop> ah
14:44:52  <andythenorth> how do I push unit8 values into uint32 function parameter?
14:44:55  <andythenorth> uint* *
14:47:12  <Samu> who's draws sprites for OpenGFX?
14:49:09  <Samu> would someone consider drawing sprites for me? or would it be too much work for implementation?
14:51:06  <V453000> draw your own? :D
14:51:41  <planetmaker> hm, yes, usually people draw what they take a fancy in themselves...
14:52:05  <andythenorth> gah
14:52:06  <planetmaker> ideally there's one person drawing, another coding and they kinda have the same idea :)
14:52:19  <andythenorth> these days, theyâre usually the same person
14:52:20  <andythenorth> :P
14:52:30  <andythenorth> I assume thereâs a reason why function parameters have to be bitstuffed?
14:52:35  <andythenorth> instead of just passing around values?
14:52:36  <V453000> or you would need to have something insanely good that some random person can't wait for, to the point they want to invest their own free time in making your idea happen
14:52:45  <V453000> which won't happen very likely :P
14:53:10  <andythenorth> I am not a good enough programmer to figure out how to shift a uint8 in and out of a uint32 just to pass 0 or 1 to the next function
14:53:23  <andythenorth> it seems arcane tbh
14:54:02  <Samu> been going through my patches of one year ago. this is a simple patch that allows rivers to be terraformed, however, it is missing many sprites
14:54:04  <Alberth> SB and GB are your friend :)
14:54:28  <Alberth> andy: ^
14:54:35  <andythenorth> only if I take (and pass) a course in bit maths
14:54:39  <Samu> who did the water sprites?
14:55:29  <Alberth> where should the uint8 be inserted?
14:56:25  <andythenorth> into p2 of CmdBuildRoad
14:56:32  <andythenorth> it looks like it should go in to bit 8
14:56:50  <andythenorth> but that depends on the function docs being accurate, so far Iâm finding theyâre not entirely :)
14:57:20  <andythenorth> the caller is OnPlaceMouseUp()
14:57:26  <andythenorth> in road_gui.cpp
14:57:32  <Alberth> pos = 8;   SB(p2, pos, 8, uint8_value)
14:58:00  <Alberth> 8 constant means "8 bits from the uint8_value"
14:58:27  <Alberth> with pos == 8, that means bits 8..15
14:58:53  <andythenorth> and then I read same with GB?
14:59:08  <Alberth> yep, let me check
14:59:44  <Alberth> uint8_value = GB(p2, pos, 8)
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15:00:36  <Alberth> obviously, you can use "8" directly instead of "pos" :)
15:01:08  <andythenorth> ta
15:01:50  <andythenorth> hmm
15:01:51  <Alberth> yw
15:01:53  <andythenorth> something is working somehow
15:01:59  <Alberth> :O
15:02:01  <andythenorth> even though I didnât apply your code yet :)
15:02:06  <andythenorth> I think itâs random accident
15:02:16  <Alberth> a nice one, though :)
15:02:36  <andythenorth> got some conditional drawing code reading the first bit of the uint 8, which happens to be set or not by accident
15:02:56  <andythenorth> biab, sun is out :)
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15:05:52  <Samu> okay forget about the rivers
15:07:22  <Samu> how do i differentiate AI cpu usage to game world run cpu usage?
15:08:14  <Samu> i think it's YAPF usage
15:08:50  <supermop> Samu: do you have some images showing which/what type of sprites you need?
15:09:29  <supermop> idk anything about patching so a quick look doesn't tell me anything about whether it would be easy or hard for me to draw
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15:10:55  <Samu> i'd like to answer, but I'm not sure how to answer in technical terms
15:11:11  <Samu> it's about the slopes
15:11:33  <Samu> it would need rivers to be drawn on every slope type
15:11:57  <supermop> so the angled slopes?
15:12:01  <Samu> yes, that
15:12:30  <supermop> like flowing down the slope, or along them parallel?
15:12:39  <supermop> similar to ocean coast
15:13:26  <supermop> but thats 8 sprites not counting the V shaped slopes if parallel
15:13:28  <supermop> not too bad
15:13:41  <supermop> if you want waterfalls...
15:13:43  <Samu> as it stands now, it can only draw in 5 different angles
15:13:44  <supermop> harder
15:14:12  <Samu> flat, NW, NE, SE and SW
15:16:45  <Samu> sec, let me find that funny png file
15:20:35  <Samu>
15:21:42  <Samu> it draws for the examples 0, 3, 6, 9 and 12, and all the others are missing
15:34:08  <Samu> oh, about the half land, half river tiles, that's an interesting question, I am not sure what it would need
15:35:47  <Samu> would take some ships running through those tiles to make sure
15:38:42  <Samu> brb, will attempt installing msvc
15:38:48  <Samu> it's been a year
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15:53:55  <supermop> ok i just want to know if the goal is "half rivers" or angled waterfalls
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16:14:47  <andythenorth> Alberth: where values are being ORed into a uint32 with shifts, do I just shift the uint8 right by n bits?
16:14:52  <andythenorth> right / left :P
16:15:22  <Alberth> just use GB/SB
16:15:47  <Alberth> those are inline functions doing the bit shifting etc
16:15:54  <andythenorth> itâs in a LOC that looks like
16:16:01  <andythenorth> DoCommandP(start_tile, end_tile, _place_road_flag | (_cur_roadtype << 3) | (_one_way_button_clicked << 5) | (_cur_road_subtype << 7), [âŠ]
16:16:12  <andythenorth> where p2 is the 3rd parameter
16:16:15  <Alberth> ah
16:17:10  <Alberth> append "| (uint8_val << 8)"
16:18:02  <Alberth> at least I hope the uint8 gets expanded to int before the shift
16:20:04  <Alberth> looks like we already have road types and sub-road types :p
16:20:10  <andythenorth> nah, I added that
16:20:16  <andythenorth> (subtype)
16:20:37  <andythenorth> we have roadtypes, but theyâre in no way useful for what ~people think roadtypes should be
16:22:32  <Alberth> :)
16:22:56  <Alberth> alcohol directly from the vineyard, how useful :)
16:23:27  <supermop> like all nice wines?
16:24:05  <Samu> visual studio 2015 express for desktop windows
16:24:08  <Samu> still installing
16:25:08  <supermop> i'm at work anyway so i can sort of draw sprites but not that quickly
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16:31:09  <lele87> hello. Can anyone help me with a problem of speed of open ttd, pls?
16:31:51  <Alberth> speed problem in what way?
16:31:56  <supermop> use the asiastar
16:32:08  <lele87> hi,
16:32:35  <lele87> my game is getting slower and slower while playing
16:32:50  <lele87> I've got +900 trains tho
16:33:00  <supermop> cpu core is not fast enough
16:33:00  <lele87> How can I make it faster?
16:33:10  <supermop> fewer trains, smaller map
16:33:32  <lele87> I might need to change pc?
16:33:45  <supermop> turn off pallet animation (i think it is called "full detail")
16:34:08  <lele87> I couldn't find it
16:34:15  <supermop> if you have a faster computer, you could try using that
16:34:22  <lele87> ho can I do that?
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16:35:57  <supermop> i can't remember where the setting is
16:35:58  <andythenorth> turn off full âanimationâ
16:36:07  <andythenorth> on the options menu on main toolbar
16:36:33  <Alberth>    perhaps??
16:36:57  <Alberth> but yeah, 900+ trains can hit CPU limits
16:37:14  <V453000> 3k+ eazy :P
16:37:16  <Samu> Buy a Core i7-6700K :p
16:38:39  * andythenorth learns to hack openttd with printf
16:38:45  <andythenorth> should I be ashamed? :)
16:38:49  <Samu> ah crap, visual studio needs to restart computer
16:38:54  <Samu> RIP servers
16:39:59  <lele87> It's not there. I was looking for that, I can't find it. I'm using the last version of openttd in italian :(
16:41:44  <supermop> lele87: maybe the setting moved, i cannot find it anymore either
16:41:58  <lele87> mm
16:43:22  <frosch> hold mouse button on the third toolbar button from left (the gear)
16:43:39  <frosch> uncheck fourth item from bottom "full animation"
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16:45:23  <lele87> yep, done, thank you
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16:46:12  <andythenorth> well I now have 3 tram track subtypes buildable :P
16:46:23  <andythenorth> why 3 are needed, eh, who knows
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16:47:08  <_johannes> Hi
16:47:29  <Wolf01> 3?
16:47:48  <Wolf01> what have you done?
16:48:03  <supermop> "shiny rail" "less shiny rails" "slightly dull rails"
16:48:31  <andythenorth> but with subtypes, using a bit to store the current subtype might beâŠ.foolish
16:48:40  <andythenorth> is there a uint2? :P
16:48:41  <supermop> "sorry this tram can only run on dull rails"
16:51:27  <andythenorth> I think there are enough bits free to provide up to 3 roadtypes and 3 tramtypes
16:51:42  <andythenorth> more if anyone could be bothered to shuffle them around
16:54:50  <Alberth> 2 bit is 4 values, why 3 ?
16:55:02  <andythenorth> very good question
16:55:21  <Alberth> hmm, the "no road" case?
16:55:24  <andythenorth> yes
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16:55:44  <Alberth> fair enough :)
16:55:49  <andythenorth> *iff* I figure out how to fold that together with the road_subtype, without breaking all the things that look at roadtype
16:56:02  <andythenorth> seems efficient on bits to do it, but looks very hard tbh
16:56:40  <andythenorth> because roadtype is expected to be found by reading just 2 bits in a lot of places, and is not trivially extensible
16:56:58  <andythenorth> currently I am taking the lazy route, and consuming extra bits
16:57:49  <Samu_>
16:57:55  <Samu_> microsoft windows sdk
16:58:09  <Samu_> that link is being redirected
16:59:28  <Samu_> redirects from to
17:00:08  <Samu_> i think i downloaded the wrong thing
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17:11:35  <andythenorth> apparently pushing uint8 values up to 3 into 2 bits works :P
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17:11:44  * andythenorth might find out about clamping the hard way :)
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17:13:41  <supermop> excited for apocryphal diesel trams
17:15:01  <andythenorth> I am not planning newgrf support yet
17:16:02  <V453000> andy doing roadtypes?
17:16:03  <V453000> holy fuck :D
17:16:17  <V453000> I see your child playing openttd research made you desperate :D
17:16:29  <andythenorth> nah, just couldnât face any more newgrf
17:16:33  <andythenorth> need a break from that
17:16:53  <V453000> well roadtypes iz specs
17:17:05  <andythenorth> nah, not doing roadtypes
17:17:09  <andythenorth> roadtypes is gash
17:18:06  <andythenorth> maybe I am doing RoadVisuals,
17:18:10  <andythenorth> or RoadEyeCandy
17:22:23  <andythenorth> hmm, bit weird
17:22:31  <andythenorth> bits of my patch are working that I havenât updated yet
17:22:51  * andythenorth probably doesnât understand tile inheritance
17:23:09  <andythenorth> I have some set / get functions defined on road_map.h
17:23:31  <andythenorth> and bridge tiles are apparently returning correct values from these
17:23:41  <andythenorth> whereas they should be failing
17:32:36  <andythenorth> ha ha
17:32:41  <andythenorth> YetAnotherRoadsProblem
17:33:56  <andythenorth> if a tile has existing tram track, and additional directions are added, the catenary might be removed
17:34:04  <andythenorth> if the last built subtype doesnât have catenary
17:34:15  <andythenorth> that implies storing the subtype for every direction bit
17:35:05  <V453000> so, ability to build various road graphics ?
17:36:17  <Samu_> Severity	Code	Description	Project	File	Line	Suppression State
17:36:29  <Samu_> oops, it cannot build
17:36:37  <Samu_> visual studio can't build openttd
17:36:52  <Samu_> 3>libpng.lib(pngerror.obj) : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol ___iob_func
17:37:06  <Samu_> meh i forgot how I did it the other time
17:38:14  <andythenorth> V453000: my plan was tram tracks with / without catenary
17:38:40  <V453000> XD
17:38:47  <V453000> nice enuf
17:39:02  <andythenorth> as a side effect that might cause other types, which I have zero interest in right now :P
17:39:09  <_johannes> I know I've asked several times, but: Is it possible to append a picture in the forums and then show the attachment graphically? (e.g. like with the img-tag)?
17:39:12  <V453000> :)
17:39:43  <V453000> I think there is the place inline thingy _johannes , but it only works up to 900 px width or something
17:39:44  <andythenorth> _johannes: format it to < 800x600 iirc
17:39:46  <andythenorth> and it will show
17:39:52  <V453000> there
17:40:04  <andythenorth> itâs probably in the help sub-forum or whatever :)
17:41:11  <Samu_> who's a compiler expert with visual studio 2015?
17:41:26  <Samu_> need help
17:41:44  <_johannes> andythenorth: thanks, that worked :)
17:42:44  <andythenorth> eh, this patch swings around in the wind
17:42:52  <andythenorth> now a catenary bit looks cleaner again than subtype bits
17:43:01  <andythenorth> what larks :D
17:43:51  * andythenorth wonders
17:43:56  <_johannes> ok, I've made a forum post about YAPF: ... Can someone please explain it?
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17:44:13  <andythenorth> when a tile has existing road or tram, preserve the subtype of that instead of replacing with new subtype?
17:44:13  <Samu_> HALP ->
17:44:19  <andythenorth> this would work fine for trams I think
17:44:35  <andythenorth> it just causes some redundant catenary
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17:53:03  * andythenorth wonders what elrail does
17:53:53  <andythenorth> I canât see it storing railtype per direction bit
17:54:05  <andythenorth> does it check neighbouring tile in each direction?
17:55:38  <Alberth> one railtype each tile
17:55:55  <Alberth>  peter has a patch for that :)
17:56:28  <andythenorth> behaviour in game suggests that it checks neighbouring tiles, and draws catenary appropriately
17:56:33  <andythenorth> I didnât read the code yet though :)
18:00:01  * andythenorth isnât going to even think about compatibility table :P
18:02:34  <andythenorth> ha
18:02:45  <andythenorth> cable trams, like san fransisco
18:02:51  <andythenorth> and thereâs the 3rd valid type :P
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18:12:11  <Alberth> you ever doubted you wouldn't get raodtypes filled???  :D
18:13:18  <Samu_> can i get some help? visual studio can't compile openttd
18:13:20  <andythenorth> I doubted there would be ideas that are valid for gameplay, or at least good eyecandy
18:15:01  <Samu_> where is this SDK?
18:17:03  <Samu_> - this article is a bit outdated, i couldn't follow it completely
18:17:18  <Samu_> where do i download the windows sdk thing?
18:17:32  <Alberth> _johannes:  did you check the estimates too? how do estimates compare against the final result?
18:18:17  <Alberth> if your estimate over-estimates you run into this trouble
18:18:23  *** Wormnest [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:18:41  <Alberth> as co,puted solutions are no longer optimal
18:19:05  <Alberth> s/,/m/
18:19:29  <_johannes> Alberth: ah, good point, I only printed the *costs*
18:19:48  <Alberth> also print the sum, to make life easier :)
18:20:16  <_johannes> so for the order of nodes which the algorithm expands, this depends on the estimate and not on the cost? is that true?
18:20:42  <Alberth> on the lowest sum
18:20:44  <_johannes> which sum exactly do you mean?
18:21:44  <_johannes> with sum you mean the sum in f(x) in*-Algorithmus#Idee_des_Algorithmus ?
18:21:56  <Alberth> an intermediate point in A* has 2 cost components. first one is real traveled path length, which is exact
18:22:17  <Alberth> the second one is an estimate from the point to the final destination
18:23:07  <Alberth> the point with the lowest sum of both components is closest to the optimal path (as far as is known), and thus best to unfold 1 step in every direction
18:23:48  <Alberth> in theory, any intermediate point with the lowest sum can be used, it doesn't matter
18:24:49  <_johannes> I see...
18:24:52  <Alberth> in practice, either the algorithm steers here (lowest estimate seems closer to the end, let's take that), or the implementation of eg hashmap makes a decision
18:25:06  <Alberth> or sorted queue, probably
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18:25:20  <_johannes> ok
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18:25:46  <_johannes> so my call to YAPF aborted probably because the order of nodes was probably wrong?
18:26:03  <_johannes> and the order of nodes was wrong because the estimate might have been wrong?
18:26:34  <_johannes> (in that case, the estimate to go from 82 to 81 was too high, so it has been expanded too late?
18:26:35  <Alberth> the order is probably not wrong.
18:27:11  <Alberth> you're talking about lowest sum which is extremely difficult to reason about by hand
18:28:04  <_johannes> but you agree that 82->81 would have to be done before 87->81 ?
18:28:15  <_johannes> (which would imply that the order was wrong)
18:28:29  <Alberth> but likely, the estimate reduces by pretty much the same amount as the real distance increases (easy to achieve in 8 directions), which means the sum stays the same mostly
18:29:28  <Alberth> my guess is that either that 87 was really lower sum than 81, or equal
18:29:39  <Alberth> in the latter case, either order is correct
18:31:22  <_johannes> ok, I'll try to print the sum
18:31:38  <Alberth> can I also suggest enlarging the image before drawing on it? now it's a cloud of read and green colours, no idea what it says
18:31:52  <Alberth> *red
18:32:32  <_johannes> hmm if I zoom in, it gets more pixeled...
18:32:45  <_johannes> maybe I could try it with the zbase-set :)
18:32:51  <Alberth> who cares?
18:33:04  <Alberth> you want to point out positions, right?
18:33:22  <Alberth> just a plain empty grid would work, mostly
18:33:47  <_johannes> well, there's a depot and station, not sure if it matters
18:33:55  <Alberth> it probably does
18:34:25  <Alberth> but people answering A* questions do not care about looks :p
18:34:30  <_johannes> anyways, do you know why it jumps from 87 to 81 at once? why doesn't it first go to 85 etc?
18:35:06  <Alberth> after 87, 81 has a lowest summed value
18:35:32  <Alberth> it may be the same value even
18:36:33  <_johannes> yes, but it says that 87 is the direct parent of 81
18:36:44  <Alberth> if you have 4 points with equal lowest sum,  any of those points is correct
18:37:12  <Alberth> not for picking a new point from the open list
18:37:39  <Alberth> you pick any point with lowest summed value from the open list
18:38:37  <_johannes> yes, I see that, but the parent pointer still says: this is the last node the train visits before this one
18:39:00  <Alberth> so?
18:39:17  <Alberth> you explore in all directions at the same time
18:39:30  <_johannes> the train can not jump from tile 87 to tile 81 without ever touching tile 85
18:39:36  <Alberth> parent relation is only used while traveling back
18:40:06  <_johannes> IIRC the parent relation is used to retrieve the shortest path after FindPath has run
18:40:19  <Alberth> yep, and you're not there yet
18:40:35  <_johannes> oO
18:40:44  <_johannes> ok now it gets complicated
18:40:53  <Alberth> that happens after you reached the destination
18:41:16  <_johannes> you mean the parent pointer are all completely remapped after reaching the destination?
18:41:28  <Alberth> then you trace back to the beginning with the parent relation (normally, not entirely sure this is done in YAPF too)
18:42:45  <_johannes> ok let's ask about the example: let's assume my train wants to go 82->81, and finds out that the route 82->85->86->87->81 is ideal...
18:42:55  <_johannes> that would be possible, I guess
18:42:57  <Alberth> parent says something about "go here for fastest way back", but it's "as far as we know now", iirc
18:43:19  <_johannes> hmm ok
18:43:38  <_johannes> so in my example, how would the caller of FindPath know what tile came before 81?
18:43:51  <_johannes> it's definitely not 87 :P
18:44:12  <_johannes> but the parent pointer seems to say this in 82->85->86->87->81
18:44:13  <Alberth> currently your call crashes
18:44:31  <Alberth> which means something is wrong, which means data values can be messed up
18:44:48  <_johannes> ok
18:45:57  <Alberth> I would start worrying about parents after you got a wrong path back :p
18:46:12  <_johannes> :)
18:46:39  <_johannes> thanks for your advice.... this YAPF problem makes me a bit desparate...
18:47:23  <Alberth> of course, it may still be caused earlier in that case, but one problem at a time :)
18:48:10  <_johannes> maybe I called YAPF wrong, this might be one result of the whole analysis
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18:50:03  <andythenorth> ha ha, Iâve borked the bridge sprites
18:50:10  <andythenorth> must be overwriting some bits somewhere
18:50:21  <andythenorth> how to debug _that_ :P
18:52:29  <Alberth> make a save game with 1 bridge, print data once with the original game code, and once with your patched code ?
18:52:47  * andythenorth thinks itâs L17 here
18:52:58  <glx> Samu_: recent visual studio includes windows sdk
18:53:11  <andythenorth> _bridge_cur_road_subtype must be over-writing the bridge type bits
18:53:12  <glx> no need for a manual download
18:53:38  <Alberth> line 17?   doesn't exist
18:54:55  <Samu_> just installed another visual studio
18:55:01  <Alberth> check that _bridge_cur_road_subtype has an expected value?
18:55:03  <Samu_> doesn't work, it's even worse :(
18:55:21  <Alberth> what's the type of _bridge_cur_road_subtype  ?
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18:55:26  <Samu_> You cannot open this project with your Express edition of Visual Studio for Windows 10. This edition only supports development of Universal Windows Platform apps.
18:55:47  <glx> you need the desktop version
18:56:07  <Alberth> so much for universal windows :p
18:56:11  <Samu_> ok, uninstalling it
18:57:09  <Samu_> can u give me the link to the right visual studio to download?
18:57:15  <glx> but visual studio comunity should work
18:57:16  <Samu_> there's so many versions
18:57:57  <Alberth> andythenorth:   uint32 w = _bridge_cur_road_subtype ; w <<= 17;    then use 'w'.    It's hacky, but it ensures your bits are preserved (shifting 17 times in a value with width 8 is undefined behavior)
18:58:29  <Alberth> it may get expanded to an int beforehand, but better safe than sorry
19:01:43  * andythenorth explores
19:04:03  <andythenorth> Alberth: did I understand correctly?
19:04:05  <andythenorth>
19:04:11  <glx> Samu_: community 2015 fails indeed
19:04:11  <andythenorth> doesnât work as expected :)
19:04:39  <andythenorth> I think 17 might be a bad shift
19:04:46  <Samu_> oh :(
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19:05:21  <glx> IIRC an updated ottd_useful is required
19:06:38  *** liq3 [] has quit []
19:06:42  <Alberth> andythenorth:  looks like what I meant
19:09:03  * andythenorth biab :)
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19:28:23  <Samu> @logs
19:28:23  <DorpsGek> Samu:
19:29:32  <Alberth> you can save such links in your browser :)
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19:33:19  <Samu> what can I do about unresolved external symbol?
19:33:53  <Samu> blame microsoft?
19:36:36  <Samu> oh ->
19:37:16  <glx> as I said, you need an updated ottd_useful
19:38:42  <Samu> so, the wiki article is wrong
19:39:07  <glx> no, it's for VS2012 :)
19:39:23  <Samu> - is this the most up to date version?
19:43:04  <glx> yes
19:46:04  <Samu> ok, reinstalling visual studio express 2015 for desktop
19:46:27  <Samu> afk
19:51:50  <andythenorth> so my shift of 17 is based on the docs here;a=blob;f=src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp;h=5f2534b58c3bd45485aa915a7047eb7ef916d3b4;hb=HEAD#l228
19:51:53  <andythenorth> Alberth: ^
19:52:32  <andythenorth> I assumed I could push an 8 bit value into p2, as only 17 bits are used
19:53:07  <Alberth> that looks ok to me judging from the docs
19:53:41  <andythenorth> the values are as expected when I read them with uint8 cur_road_subtype = GB(p2, 17, 8);
19:54:02  <andythenorth> but Iâm over-writing something in bridge type
19:54:35  <andythenorth> BridgeType is bits 0-7
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19:58:46  <Alberth> line 330?
19:59:22  <Alberth> bits look fine to me
19:59:27  <andythenorth> what happens if I try to write a uint8 into 2 bits with SB?
19:59:33  <andythenorth> does it overflow into neighbouring bits?
19:59:55  <Alberth> doesn't look like it to me
20:00:57  <andythenorth> so what is suspicious about 330? :)
20:01:16  <Alberth> it checks transport type
20:01:24  <Alberth> of the start tile
20:01:33  <Alberth> which you may be hacking
20:02:05  <andythenorth> nah
20:02:07  <Alberth> ie maybe somwehere further a routine returns a wrong result
20:02:13  <andythenorth> deliberately left transport type alone :)
20:02:28  <andythenorth> too much depends on it
20:04:10  <andythenorth> hmm, if I shift 24, the same problem manifests exactly
20:04:17  <andythenorth> so itâs probably not the shift
20:06:12  <Alberth> it seems unlikely
20:07:07  <Alberth> you could check the used functions, and see if they depend on something you changed
20:07:21  <andythenorth> bridge_type is reporting same for every type I build, but the sprites are different in some cases
20:08:41  <Alberth> you could also step through this function, and see how adding your patch changes values or behaviour
20:08:52  <andythenorth> Iâm doing that with printfs now
20:08:55  <Alberth> flags & DC_EXEC  <-- that means "really do it"
20:09:04  <andythenorth> :)
20:09:11  <Alberth> everything before is just checking
20:09:39  <Alberth> so bridgetype value there matter, as they end up in the map data
20:11:35  * andythenorth checks bytes in the map directly
20:11:48  <Alberth> good idea :)
20:12:45  <Alberth> good night
20:15:34  <andythenorth> something overflows
20:15:36  <andythenorth> goodnight :)
20:16:21  <andythenorth> oic
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20:16:54  <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
20:18:46  <supermop> rendering lots of trolleys
20:21:27  * andythenorth read the landscape grid too literally
20:21:43  <andythenorth> and assumed SB and GB counted down from highest bit :P
20:21:54  <andythenorth> perils of left-right
20:27:59  <_johannes> is it possible to build a track-cycle without danger of deadlocks?
20:28:26  <_johannes> I just have such a cycle here, and I'm getting traffic jams all the time
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20:36:32  <Samu> aha, i did it
20:36:54  <Samu> however, there is an issue with the dpi scaling
20:37:11  <Samu> the testing build isn't dpi aware or something like that, what can i do?
20:37:18  <Samu> glx:
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20:48:41  <peter1138> will apple ever move on to os 11?
20:51:48  <Samu> wow i think i figured it out
20:54:09  <Samu> right click openttd project > properties. Then Configuration Properties > Manifest Tool > Input and Output, then DPI Awareness: Per Monitor High DPI Aware
20:54:22  <Samu> this solved the scaling
20:54:56  <andythenorth> peter1138: unlikely
20:56:09  <andythenorth> hmm, thatâs tunnels with catenary done apparently
20:56:14  <andythenorth> and without
20:56:29  <andythenorth> how hard can NotRoadTypes be?
21:03:20  <andythenorth> peter1138: you didnât finish it before becauseâŠ?  Boring?  CBA?
21:18:12  <Wolf01> Rebooting... the virtual machine with XP
21:19:12  <andythenorth> random
21:19:48  * andythenorth must to bed
21:19:52  <andythenorth> boring
21:20:27  <Wolf01> meh... the software requires windows 98/2000
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21:25:44  <Wolf01> uhoh... no usb port found, this could be tricky
21:34:00  *** KouDy [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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21:36:29  <Samu> supermop:!1250&authkey=!AKX-wUCAG6mE66o&ithint=file%2cscn
21:37:25  <Samu> download the file rivertiles.scn - it is a scenario with the rivers already placed
21:37:35  <Samu> and they miss the sprites
21:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no frosch:
21:47:46  <Samu> about the ships... they are not traversing the half-tile, but I don't see any reason why they shouldn't
21:48:32  <Samu> as long as the half-tile is not declive, they should traverse it the half-flat part of it
21:49:07  <Samu> thats something I could venture myself into
21:49:15  <Samu> make it pathable
21:51:47  <Samu> should mimic the coastal pathing
21:51:56  <Samu> gonna investigate
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22:25:48  <supermop> half rivers seems like a good start as you'd end up drawing much of the same stuff for sloped waterfalls
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23:08:39  <Samu> vs
23:10:18  <Samu> on the first image it shows the missing water sprites on the left, and the missing pathable water track on the right
23:11:31  <Samu> the bare tiles need no tracks, they already behave correctly
23:11:58  <Samu> the flat tile 0 also behaves correctly
23:12:09  <Samu> the others, half-tiles, don't
23:18:52  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:25:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i brought up half-rivers they were shot down because people would then want to build rails on the other half tile
23:30:45  <Samu> those tracks are to visualize where ships can traverse
23:31:06  <Samu> but the tile is fully water
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23:32:23  <Samu> waterfall
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23:33:46  <drac_boy> hi
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