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Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds

Income Disparity Solution: Restore the Minimum Wage to 1969 Levels






























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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:02 | 2479797 slackrabbit
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Madness. It all mine I tell you.

Hey put down that pitch fork!




Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:05 | 2479836 Caviar Emptor
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I'd like my minimum wage in gold mr bossman 

Heard about it on channel ZH

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:17 | 2479911 Atlas_shrugging
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:26 | 2479960 flacon
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Or to put it another way, minimum wage generates unemployment. 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:33 | 2479973 flacon
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:10 | 2480221 Thisson
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:32 | 2480283 flacon
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:09 | 2480565 Buzz Fuzzel
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:42 | 2480697 SimplePrinciple
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:11 | 2480572 zaphod
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 15:44 | 2480930 HurricaneSeason
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 19:36 | 2481730 dolly madison
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:32 | 2480668 philgramm
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 15:32 | 2480884 maximin thrax
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 17:58 | 2481430 Breaker
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 15:20 | 2480841 maximin thrax
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:00 | 2480498 aerojet
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 19:45 | 2481747 fnord88
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:36 | 2480003 FL_Conservative
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:45 | 2480061 MeBizarro
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To what equlilibrium are you talking about? 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:03 | 2480183's picture

Satisfaction of market participants through voluntary interaction.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:01 | 2480508 aerojet
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:03 | 2480185 The Alarmist
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:24 | 2480290 cranky-old-geezer
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...and that's not gonna happen.

"Should" is nonsense.  It ain't gonna happen.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 19:58 | 2481769 FL_Conservative
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:41 | 2480040 Ben Dover
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 16:03 | 2480988 AchtungAffen
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Fri, 06/01/2012 - 13:46 | 2484998 Rusty_Shackleford
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How does making jobs illegal help anyone?


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:19 | 2479923 MiguelitoRaton
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:38 | 2480032 Rylie
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:45 | 2480066 Ben Dover
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the quality of life issue is always important to consider.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:57 | 2480147 HungrySeagull
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:39 | 2480381 UP Forester
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Life is good....

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:54 | 2480118 Bob
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Neoliberal Express: All Aboard!


Liberty--First, Last and Always!

Ron Paul, 2012

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:05 | 2480189's picture


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:15 | 2480258 Bob
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That's not freedom.  That's tyranny. 

Slogans are nice, but reality really has to be accommodated.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:52 | 2480446's picture


reality really has to be accommodated.




Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:03 | 2480513 Bob
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Chapter and verse, the Book of Liberty?



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:21 | 2480626's picture




Get real.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:38 | 2480684 Bob
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Good luck, CA.  :-)

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 16:39 | 2481095 PianoRacer
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And so on.




Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:12 | 2480237 Thisson
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:19 | 2479924 slackrabbit
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The  traditional coinage for trade was payment in silver. 


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:15 | 2479901 TheAntiBen
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:27 | 2479963 Marginal Call
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:58 | 2480159 t0mmyBerg
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:18 | 2480268 Marginal Call
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Fri, 06/01/2012 - 08:49 | 2483357 Lord Koos
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:13 | 2480242 flacon
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:39 | 2480390 Marginal Call
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Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:15 | 2480594 BooMushroom
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What you just said is that nobody is stopping anyone from illegally offering or accepting sub-minimum-wage jobs. That is actually the STATED PURPOSE OF THE LAW. It seems you are advocating a lower or non-existent minimum wage, but only for jobs you approve of.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:31 | 2479993 slackrabbit
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I was actually favouring just a free market - if you want fix poverty, don't subsidise losers - it won't fix everything, but its a any case it looks like socialist Europe will eventaully get that ball rolling

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:49 | 2480090 MeBizarro
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BS.  Minimum wage laws have a nominal impact on overall employment figures one way or another.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:14 | 2480233's picture

Right. The people on the fringes with no experience or skills are insignificant. Therefore they should be blocked from gaining experience in the workplace and simply be forgotten. They can go on welfare or just eat each other's faces off. Makes little difference to the broader economy. And besides, shutting people out of the workforce makes me, as a big hearted do-gooder, feel really swell. I like to know I've made a difference in the lives of others.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:39 | 2480385 bobnoxy
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And when has a rising minimum wage ever cost jobs here? The answer is never. Look it up (I did) instead of mindlessly repeating what you always hear on Fox News and CNBC, fed to them by some right wing think tank like the Heritage Foundation.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:56 | 2480470 Bob
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Folks are so proud of what they got teeched in Econ 101 that they don't need to look at nuthin. 

Too bad they never made it to Econ 301.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 18:07 | 2481474 Breaker
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"Increasing the minimum wage is the stupidist idea ever."

Well. . . . There are other really stupid ideas lining up for the top spot. How about having the goverment control the entire healthcare system with what will be about 25,000 pages of unreadable regulations? Or, what about Congress making sure banks loan exponentially increasing amounts of money to people who can't pay it back and then blaming the banks for doing what the congresscritters wanted them to do? Or, how 'bout expanding the money supply every time the stock market dips and keeping interest rates at zero percent for years on end? And to top it off, make sure college graduates are at least $100,000 in debt when they graduate?

It's a really stupid idea. But the "stupidist"???



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:52 | 2480113 RmcAZ
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Uhh better idea... how about stop inflating the damn currency into oblivion and then we don't have to worry about changing minimum wage.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:04 | 2480190 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

How about we regulate bankster pay back to 1969 levels...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:16 | 2480261's picture

How about we deregulate banker pay back to 1912 levels?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:02 | 2480178 Meremortal
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$10 an hour? Peanuts! Make it $100 an hour, then everyone can be the 1%!

Economics is so simple!

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:15 | 2480253 Thisson
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I appreciate your sarcasm :-)

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:06 | 2480199 slackrabbit
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Just in case I wasn't clear - i dont favor the wage controls - im one of those 'mad' libertarians - i just think the easiest way to fix the disparity complained about  - is to stop bailing out losers.

If your rich because of hard work, good on you...if your rich because you got protection from washington, london, berlin because you made bad bets - Um no........And have you seen my new meat cleaver?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:54 | 2480734 short-swap
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I'm really tired of the whole "top 1% versus the bottom 1%" line of thinking. This implies a static situation over the last several decades rather than the reality of a dynamic economy. Not everyone making income that puts them in the bottom segment stays that way forever. And if you look at things realistically, you'd realize that the bottom can't go below zero (not taking debt into account of course...) but the upper bracket has no upper bound. So as the top 1% bracket increases, the income disparity will naturally widen as the lowest earners of a society will always hover just above zero. This does not mean that those in a given income range are resigned to that range forever.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:58 | 2479799 Bunga Bunga
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But an office computer was $1,736,500 then.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:04 | 2479837 slackrabbit
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and with Bens printing it will be again ;-)

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:06 | 2479853 mayhem_korner
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Pretty soon, it will cost $1,736,500 for the paper to print a $1 bill.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:58 | 2479802 jekyll island
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Better idea:  Get rid of minimum wage completely and stop government intervention into the marketplace.  Oh, and End the Fed too.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:00 | 2479812 Spastica Rex
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Better idea:  Get rid of minimum wage completely

But isn't that what illegal immigration is for?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:02 | 2479829 Kreditanstalt
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YES!  Immigration controls are a subsidy for expensive labour.  Remove all immigration controls.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:06 | 2479849 Caviar Emptor
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Remove ALL laws. 

Oh and those morals and social conventions too. 


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:07 | 2479859 DaveyJones
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beat me to it.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:11 | 2479882 Spastica Rex
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Nature is red in tooth and claw; I reckon that's the law that matters in the end.

It's good to be a tiger, or a king.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:20 | 2479928 Caviar Emptor
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I wasn't thinking that large. Just wanted the freedom to fart in public

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:48 | 2480433 AnAnonymous
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It's good to be a tiger, or a king.

Probably better to be a King than a tiger.

But hey, decades of BBC wild life documentaries painting predators as the wild life supremos have to take its toll.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:16 | 2480600 Spastica Rex
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No kidding - let's all observe a moment of silence for the unfairly maligned predators of the world.



The darkness drops again but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep

Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


Enjoy your 21st Century.


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:15 | 2479898 jekyll island
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The time when illegal immigrant labor worked for peanuts has largely come and gone.  They work for about the same amount as US citizens in the construction and agriculture industry.  Mexicans work harder and are more reliable and that's why they are in demand.  I work in an ER in Mississippi, there is a constant stream of US residents coming in to get a work excuse or to try to claim disability because they don't want to work in the chicken processing plants.  Why work that hard if you can get Uncle Sugar to pay you instead? 



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:33 | 2480002 Spastica Rex
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Well, Mississippi and whatnot... Maybe all y'all could secede and petition for union with Mexico?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:37 | 2480018 jekyll island
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I didn't say I lived in Mississippi.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:41 | 2480025 jekyll island
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Besides, I really like chicken.  Now you are gonna piss Janus off and he will type a two page response to your smarmy comment.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:58 | 2480158 HungrySeagull
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A visit to the chicken processor plant with the rebellious workforce will change that liking for chicken.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:15 | 2480256 jekyll island
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I've been there.  It is hard work, smells bad and workers stand on their feet for hours with sharp knives dissecting chicken.  Not something I would want to do, but I would if that were my only option.  BTW the slaughterhouses are worse.  At least you don't have to worry about a hog or a steer breaking loose before it gets hammered.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:06 | 2479852 RazvanM
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At one time this America was created by illegal immigration. "Give me your tired, your poor..."

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:10 | 2479879 Robot Traders Mom
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I'm glad you put in the disclaimer "at one time"

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:22 | 2479910 ElvisDog
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Do you always just make shit up, or have you taken the time to learn anything about history? In the "Give me your tired, your poor" era, immigrants came to the U.S. mostly from Europe on ships and had to pass through Ellis Island. They went through the legal screening process (basically you had to prove that you could work and/or support yourself) and then they were let into the country. Got that? They were legal immigrants, dumbshit.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:45 | 2480062 SgtShaftoe
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I think perhaps you should go back and read your history books, or better yet burn your old ones full of statist lies and go read some true and unbiased ones.

The immigration controls we have now don't allow people to come here legally unless you effectively win the lottery 1000/1 chances or so. You should talk to any European that has tried to immigrate here in the last 20 years. It's damn near impossible, but we let any Sudanese uneducated person/ family in and give them a check. I have been through the process myself for my family, and it's troublingly Kafka'esque.

The fact is, the Mexicans aren't the problem. I have first hand experience with many wonderful mexican families too. Unbiased studies show immigrants on the whole contribute a multiple more to GDP than ones that cost ( outliers). There was a really good discussion on the subject over at a year or so ago. Do a search on their site for it.

I suggest you really know what the fuck you are talking about before bellaring on like a crazed idiot about things you clearly don't understand context to.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:53 | 2480124 ElvisDog
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You are a fucking idiot, SgtShaftoe. I was referring to the early 20th century when the overwhelming percentage of immigrants were legal immigrants that came through and were processed through Ellis Island. You're referring to the here and now when Ellis Island is a National Park and our immigration laws and policies have changed from 100 years ago.

So, tell me shit-for-brains, how is what I wrote above a "statist lie" (whatever the hell that even means)? Are you implying that the extraordinarily well-documented surge in legal immigration in the late 19th and early 20th century didn't happen that way? And what does "I have first hand experience with many wonderful mexican families" mean anyway. A little hidden guilt perhaps? Seems to me that's a little like saying "some of my best friends are black".

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:17 | 2480263 SgtShaftoe
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You state that the immigrants of yesteryear went through legal screening processes.  That's true.  However you imply that immigrants should just go through the legal screening process now as in the past.  The fact is, that's just not fucking possible.  It really gets me bent when people who have no idea how fucked up the current immigration laws are, and how impossible it is to come here go off on how immigrants are the source of all of our problems.  The "Dey took our Yobs!!!!!!" argument  That's just not fucking true.  Your impication that immigrants should simply follow the legal process and come here legally is a statist lie, or more correctly stinks of state nationalism like the fucking Nazis. 

My statement about mexicans was simply to emphasise that we are all individuals entitled to basic god given rights no matter what geography one was born in.  Respect individuals for what they are.  When one starts going after one group or another you risk going down that slippery slope to terrible ends:


  stimulating public outcry, private shunning and discrimination against the menace

  Enacting laws to exclude the menace from society


  Registration of personal property

  Reporting persons' banking transactions

  civil forfiture laws to confiscate property of the menace


  Relocating and interning large segments of the menace population


  Preventing the birth of children to persons considered part of the menace, outright death squads, mechanical extermination



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:24 | 2480301 ElvisDog
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Okay, that's fine, no more insults from me. One last point, I never wrote about current immigration policies and made no linkage from what was done in 1900 versus what is or should be done now. That was an element that you brought into the discussion, not me. Might have been better for you to have started a new thread.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:16 | 2480591 t0mmyBerg
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you could not be more right.  I was an attorney and I shared my apartment with a couple fleeing from South Africa when the ANC came into power 20 or so years ago and Cape Town was burning.  Argentinian Jew (male) and Dutch Afrikaner (sp? - female).  Very nice people.  I researched the law and was astounded to find that legal immigration was basically impossible.  I wrote a Senator I knew.  No deal.  I also know people from Wales (part of the British Isles for those who are geographically challenged, like ElvisDog presumably), Hong Kong and Hungary who found it basically impossible to immigrate.  These were people with whom I was working.

So what chaps my ass is when people talk about how you have to stand in line and do it legally.  Well if you really did that, the line would be longer than a human lifetime.  In other words not doable.  So there is no legal way, basically because the laws are broken in immigration as they are in nearly every aspect of the law as Congress has completely abdicated its role.  fix the laws so that there is a legal way for non-PhDs to come upt to some reasonable limit (which I would define as the maximum number of people that can be acculturated annually, they are a boon to the economy) and then talk to me about doing it legally.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:07 | 2480201 RazvanM
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"They were legal immigrants" - they were not for the Indians that were the owners of the land. I am not saying this with sarcasm and I am not trying to be a smart ass.


This discussion on minimum wage is pretty common in an ex-communist country like Romania, where I live, and the populists and communists are leading it. I am pretty amazed that somebody in US of A would want to be protected by the law and by the government to obtain a decent pay for work.

Now, the Mexicans that are entering US looking for work are poor, but working people. They will enter anyway, legally or illegally. But if they are not let in, US is actually creating jobs for the smugglers and creating the opportunity for lots of people living in US to profit from this smuggling of people. Then, the illegal immigrants will not be able to work legally, so there is another opportunity for human exploiters. So, static barriers are created (laws, regulations, walls), but they are no match for dynamic people - and the costs to have these barriers become unbearable. I know pretty much about the implications because I know stories about people from my country illegally going to EU countries looking for work. Even highly educated people were desperate enough to work as unqualified workers.

What I want to say is that there is nothing you can do to stop poor, desperate people to come into US looking for job. Or to accept very low wages by US standards, if they have no other choice. So, trying to enforce higher minimum wage is mainly an expense on the private companies that will support the costs.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:33 | 2480352 ElvisDog
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I think the immigration debate will largely become a moot point, because immigration will slow to a trickle all on its own. Illegal immigrants come for jobs. What are some of the largest industries that employ illegals? hotels, restaurants, construction, landscaping, housecleaning, other home-maintenance services. What do all of those jobs have in common? They rely on an expanding middle class with enough discretionary income to hire those services. So for millions of new immigrants to come into the country to find jobs, there has to be millions of new middle-class and upper middle class people to hire them. But the middle class in the U.S. is shrinking, not growing. When your discretionary income shrinks you might decide to clean your own house or mow your own lawn. In the future, existing immigrants, legal and illegal, will have a hard enough time finding or keeping their jobs let alone millions of new ones.

Bottom line is without a increasing supply of low-end service jobs in the U.S., the immigrants won't immigrate. And that, in my opinion, is what is happening and will happen in the future.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:52 | 2480457 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Jobs are one way to consume resources.

They are others. And human beings have been following the fluxes of resources for ages...

And the US will not cease in one day to be the world center for resources consumption, the rest of the world being organized to allow that consumption.

US world order.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:27 | 2479964 Stuck on Zero
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"Give me your tired, your poor..." was written by a Frenchman.  It was never U.S. Policy untiled Ted Kennedy came along.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:23 | 2480298's picture






She is best known for "The New Colossus", a sonnet written in 1883; its lines appear on a bronze plaque in the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty[1] placed in 1903.[2]

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:40 | 2480036 ebworthen
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That was legal immigration where people got off the boat to stay, not Western Union their wages across the border every week while parasitizing schools, hospitals, police, and every other public service..

Unpaid bill?  Trouble with the law?  Change towns or go back across the border for 6 months to a year.  Handouts in every state and almost zero enforcement.  If you don't have trackable wages to garnish or a house to confiscate how are they going to hold you to task the way they do a captive citizen?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:12 | 2480232 RazvanM
RazvanM's picture

Interesting that you mentioned about "captive citizen". So, I believe that you should direct your grief elsewere, not only to the immigrants.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:27 | 2480315's picture



As I recall about half of European immigrants to the US from 1880 through 1920 returned to Europe to retire. While they worked in America they sent money to the families to which they planned to return and built up nest eggs for their eventual repatriation.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:52 | 2480456 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Do you have some evidence to back up your claim about returning to Europe to retire? Nothing from Wikipedia please.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:59 | 2480488's picture

Just general knowledge on my part. Google gives us the following when we search for "europeans immigrants returned home:"


We have more statistics relating to the huge migrations of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Although statistics on departing passengers were not kept until 1908, figures that have been developed by scholars reveal some interesting patterns. Several believe that, overall, as many as one in three American immigrants returned to their home country. In some years there was one departure for every two arrivals. (However, as stated above this does not mean the person was leaving permanently or that he had not made other trips.) During the depression of the 1930s there were actually more people leaving the US than entering.


Plenty more available on the Google. Some sources may have different information. Let me know what you discover.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:03 | 2479833 northman
northman's picture

I was going to say the same thing! The best idea ever is 'end the fed, commodity backed currency, less government intervention'. This is the best way to bring wages back into line because while it may not increase wages at the bottom, it'll certainly take a chunk off the top!

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:06 | 2479854 rumblefish
rumblefish's picture

Jekyll is correct. Nothing the goverment has ever intervened with has been good. Let the market decide.

CHS, I am fan of your work, but you are wrong here.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:14 | 2479899 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Absolutely. This article is something like Krugman would come up with.

CHS, there are likely hundreds of articles over on that explain in clear detail why you are so, so very wrong. Here's one to start.

Mythology of the Minimum Wage

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:29 | 2480332 CommunityStandard
CommunityStandard's picture

If the market is to decide on wages, the market needs to be able to decide on everything.  You can't eliminate minimum wage until you eliminate TBTF and central banking interference.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:11 | 2479884 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

Strange, isn't it, how the same people who want government out of the marketplace scream for even more government when it comes to "illegal" immigrants offering to do their jobs more cheaply...? 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:20 | 2479931 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

I don't think that is entirely on point.  The main problem with illegal immigration labor is that they do not pay taxes and their families consume resources like healthcare and education that is paid for with that funding.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:32 | 2480000 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

Agreed.  But that's the government's fault.

I'm just saying that most commenters here seem to be small government types except when it affects them...   Deep inside, they seem to want a big military, iron borders, and more cops on the street...go figure...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:55 | 2480094 jekyll island
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It's like Mark Twain said:  "All generalizations are false, including this one."

Being on the fringe as we are will always generate a variety of opinions.  We have had 40 years of big government, big military, increasing police state - how's that working for us?  I would like to believe everyone wants less gubmint, fewer laws, more efficiency.   

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:57 | 2480480 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

I dont see any philosophical inconsistency between wanting less government interference in daily life and not wanting invaders showing up in your community. If one were arguing the total anarchist view there would be an inconsistency there but very few take that position. Wanting my government localized and minimzed instead of centralized and strengthened is not in opposition to not wanting parasites.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:07 | 2480554 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

Theis view seems inconsistent.

But you need more border guards, more cops, courts and centralized government for that.  And I'll bet you also "support 'our' troops" too and want a strong military to fight "terrorism", right?  And more government bank regulation...and...and...

Instead, why not open the borders entirely?  Anyone can come in and bid for jobs, as long as they obey all the rules and laws, commit no thefts or assaults, etc., and use no taxpayer-funded social programs...?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:59 | 2480164 SgtShaftoe
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Not true, most pay taxes, and can never get a refund because they used a bogus social. They pay sales tax as well. You can't have a bank account without a social, or a drivers license. The "free" services argument is very rare, but always reported. You don't hear about people that don't game the system.

Listen to this:

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:25 | 2480304 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

You don't need a driver's license to drive.  You don't have to have a bank account, last time I checked cash worked just fine.  Many of these jobs are seasonal, illegals can move around and stay ahead of the system.  Medicaid will pay for pregnant women and children even if they are in country illegally, go figure that out.  For the rest, well they come to the ER for care, got the government mandate EMTALA to thank for that.  Free services rare?  Did you hear about all the parents who pulled their kids out of school in Alabama because they toughened their immigration stance?  The school districts complained because the enrollment dropped and they feared their budgets would be cut.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:44 | 2480417 SgtShaftoe
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I'd advocate we get rid of all government free services, schools, etc.  However from econtalk:





Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:51 | 2480726 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Good points, the reality is that this was not a concern until the economy went south.  Now illegal aliens are a problem when they were a valuable part of the workforce all along.  Too complex for me to figure out, I'd rather have the productive illegal immigrants than the current US government.  I'd consider that a win-win.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:05 | 2480532 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

Employment in Alabama has also improved because of the laws, and it is a good thing.

When the anti-illegal laws passed in South Carolina and businesses started getting nailed there was a similar exodus, my aunt was an ESOL teacher and they were able to cut one of them from each of the elementary, middle, and high schools where I lived at the time. No doubt the bloated administration was aghast at the thought of losing their funding, but the population was happy about it. The lawn care crew in the complex I lived in at the time went from all Mexicans to young 20-ish white and black guys, I talked to them and they were quite happy for the $11/hr. jobs in spite of working in the summer SC heat.

Making it against the law for an illegal to even attend a university that gets even a dollar of state funding was also an excellent way to encourage them to head for Texas or California.

As for medical costs, I think it should be made into a business.  Any dollar of cost incurred at a medical institution should be subracted from any aid given to their country of origin.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:59 | 2480759 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

Why are we paying aid to foreign countries?  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 15:49 | 2480945 holdingontomypants
holdingontomypants's picture

What I am at a loss over is it is illegal to be working here in the US undocumented but the IRS mandates that even illegal workers must report all income earned and gives them a tax payer identification number to use since they don't have the social security number normally used to file taxes. While I recognize the IRS has no immigration enforcement responsibilities it seems they exacerbate the problem by making it easy for the illegal worker to file taxes and collect refunds including child tax credits and earned income credits using childrens names that the IRS has no means to verify because the illegal worker doesn't have to list a social security number for each of the children. I on the other hand have to list my childs social security number or I assume I wouldn't get the credit. I saw an article not to long ago where an illegal worker got back over $11,000 in earned income credits on neices and nephews he claimed lived in his trailer. When the reporter asked him why he was doing this he basically stated because the government allows him and many others to do so. Something is very wrong with our system that allows this to go on even though the Treasury inspector general brought this to the IRS atatention they have done nothing to close this loophole up.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:49 | 2480093 Blammo
Blammo's picture

  The only problem I have with hardcore,fullbore libertarian philosophy is, it's utopean and doesn't account for the fact that liberals/socialists exist and won't ever go away.

  Establish a pocket of libertarian utopia somewhere (democratically agreed upon),with no border restrictions and you'll soon be swamped by leftist newcomers and their legislation.....

    "Then came the lawyers, and then came the rules"........Mark Knophler

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:39 | 2480388's picture





What is a "libertarian utopia?" Utopia is an imaginary centrally planned society. Libertarians eschew authoritative central planning and so a "libertarian utopia" could neither be conceived of nor implemented. Voluntary interaction and the establishment of Utopia stand in direct opposition to each other.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 14:54 | 2480740 Blammo
Blammo's picture

Utopia is imaginary,ideal,and unattainable. If you can imagine one that's not centrally planned (eg. A society that would "eschew autoritative central planning"),I argue it's utopean,and disagree with nothing you said aside from our definitional quibble.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:58 | 2480152 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Completely empty rhetoric you see on here way too often.  End the Fed, get the gov't out, blah blah blah. 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:59 | 2479803 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

OTOH, why should governments be in the wage market at all?

Get the hell out!  The market knows best who should be paid how much and for what...


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:07 | 2479860 jekyll island
jekyll island's picture

I lost interest there at the end when he mentioned the top 1% skimming.  I guess the writer is too liberal to go an figure out that it's the top 0.01% that is responsible for most of the wealth inequality.  There is no room for class warfare in the US and indirectly that is what he is proposing.  How about attacking crony capitalism and the superwealthy?  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:00 | 2479807 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture find that in 2012 dollars the minimum wage should be $10 per hour if it were to match the rate considered "reasonable" 43 years ago.....

And if you use the "real" inflation rate the minimum wage in 2012 dollars would be $6 Gazillion. So let's pick a spot somewhere inbetween and call it even.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:01 | 2479823 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

See I knew a Gazillion would be a real number one day!

Take that Oxbridge scholars!!!

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:45 | 2480068 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Wait until I roll out Bazillion. Then call those scholars.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:00 | 2479808 tgatliff
tgatliff's picture

Without working out the globalization imbalance issue, the only thing that raising the minimum wage would do is kill allot of jobs..


A better solution... Start encouraging productive business by raising base interest rates to their historical average of about 6%.  Without the ability for savers to make money, sustainable productive business cannot exist.   Yes, it will destroy the current financial world, but will also start to put in place the ground work needed for productive business to come back.


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:08 | 2479868 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

lets be honest 6% in this day and age?

If interest rates are a measure of risk, wouldn't it be just a little higher? 

And one got any figures they would lend money out at today?

I'd say 10-12% - anyone else have a number?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:58 | 2480487 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture



The key point indeed. Another US citizen truism.

And US citizen truism have benefited humanity...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:00 | 2479810 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

Except that the large majority of minimum wage earners are teenagers and high school students just starting out in the work force.  The notion of the worker on minimum wage supporting their family of 4 is a very rare exception not the rule.

Raising the min wage just makes younger, untrained workers less attractive to hire and shuts them out of the work force.  Then they have problems finding a job later because they don't have (enough) experience in the workplace.  You end up perpetuating a vicious cycle.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:07 | 2479855 i_call_you_my_base
i_call_you_my_base's picture

Not the large majority, half:

The information is there, no need to make assumptions.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:55 | 2480136 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

Perhaps I am misstating my argument a bit so let me be more thorough.  As your link explains, minimum wage workers tend to be young (age 16-24).  They are a 20% of those paid hourly rates, but half of those making minimum wage.  I think this is where you are getting the half that you reference.  So the other half of minimum wage workers are over age 24.  But how many of those are the primary earner in the household?  The tables don't tell us that explicitly, but we can see that nearly 60% work less than 34 hours a week, and only about 20% work 40 or more hours, which suggest a lot of part-time workers (reasons can vary but if you're supporting a family on a minimum wage you probably work more hours, not fewer).  Also, only 20% of those on minimum wage are over age 24 and have never been married.  So the chances of someone being the primary earner trying to support a family (spouse and/or children) is a pretty small number, maybe 4% of those over age 24 (20% x 20%), which is 2% of all hourly paid workers. 

Factor in that hourly paid workers are about half the U.S. labor force and the minimum wage or below figure is 5% of that, we're talking about a small subset of 2.5% of the labor force that is truly dependent on a minimum wage to support a family (4% of 2.5% is 0.1% or one tenth of one percent).  Obviously the numbers here are just approximations, but directionally it's in the ballpark - it's a small number.  Given the damage inflicted through higher union pay and pension obligations (contracts are often indexed to the minimum wage) and higher teen unemployment and less prepared young people for the work force, there are better, more efficient ways to help the tiny number of people that rely on minimum wage to raise their family.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:15 | 2479906 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

have you been to Walmart?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:19 | 2479921 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Bad example.

Wal-Mart uses minimum wage as a barrier to entry for competition. (in other words, they pay more than that, where their competition may not be able to afford it). WM has actually came out for higher minimum wages in the past for that very reason.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:17 | 2479909 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Funny how such obvious, factual information gets down-voted by those who obviously don't care to consider it.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:43 | 2480047 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

There is a fact deficit in his post.  High school kids do not make up the majority of minimum wage earners.


How many retail establishments or restaurants have you been in lately that were staffed by high schoolers?  Or do you shop at hot topic?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:58 | 2480161 chunkylover42
chunkylover42's picture

please see my clarification above.  I misstated the case about high schoolers/teenagers being the majority of the minimum wage workers.  my point was intended to highlight that there is a very small number of primary earners that depend on minimum wage to support themselves or a family.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:59 | 2480166 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture


Go to the county health dept or the high school with daycare programs.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:02 | 2479815 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

rather than yet more central command and Govt intervention how about we ditch minimum wage, retirement age, entitlements, unemployment, welfare, 'free' healthcare, rigged cartel health insurance and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the other turds the Govt throws in the road for commerce to drive around?

in short why don't the meddlers fuck off 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:12 | 2479889 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Don't you see? If CHS were the one centrally planning everything, we'd all be saved. Don't you want to be helped? All you have to do is give up all your freedoms.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:21 | 2479934 optimator
optimator's picture

And allow employers to replace anyone that walks off his job, including union workers of course.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:21 | 2480288 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Yes the Wests problem is we have too many meddlers and not enough achievers

..and behind every failed wave of Govt meddlers we have another army of meddlers ready and willing to try their luck (and fail)

let's just give Freedom a chance, it couldn't possibly be worse than this Govt shithole we're in

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:01 | 2479817 mr1963
mr1963's picture

Implement this and labor costs across the board -- including state and local salaries and pensions will explode. Most -- not all -- Union contracts are indexed to the minimum wage, a $3.00 raise here means a raise to every government union employee, not to mention the pension increase...

And me, well I'll pay for it six ways from Sunday.



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:05 | 2479845 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture



Labor costs cannot explode unless there is either (1) market demand to support the produced goods & services at those labor rates or (2) the gubbmint subsidizes it through unrepayable debt.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:04 | 2479818 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

Why should labour be protected with these artificial government-imposed job-destroying minimum wages at all???

While CAPITAL - investors and savers! - is PUNISHED, PUNISHED and PUNISHED...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:11 | 2479871 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

You are a moron.  CAPITAL has not come from "savers" in 30+ fucking years.  It has come from a printing press that the Federal Reserve Bank has been running along with the PDs at the expense of savers, taxpayers, and the bond holders (see declining rates and negative rates in TIPS).  Wake the fuck up, Prosecute the fucking fraud, restore the rule of law and contracts, and reward the SAVERS and responsible behavior and all the capital mis-allocation and malinvestment will fix itself.  Wake the fuck up already.

ZIRP implies that there is no real cost for creating capital, even when nothing of real value is added to the system, you are a moron if you really think that is sustainable.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:12 | 2479894 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

Lost you in the obscenities...try again.
