

Mountain lions here in NY ? Yes, or no.


Dear Readers,

Okay…this has nothing to do with Christianity. I just want to get your opinions on something. We live in a mountainous area here in upstate NY. At the end of last August our neighbor came over to tell us that he had seen a mountain lion on his back deck. It was very early in the morning around dawn when he saw it. He said he noticed how long the tail was, and watched it leap into a tree and then climb up.

We were obviously surprised and our minds tried to reason that it must have been something else. Maybe a bob-cat, or a fisher?… Honestly, we had forgotten about it until 3 days ago. My youngest daughter and I were driving down our driveway, which is two football fields long, with lots of winding turns. We often have wildlife on our property including deer, turkeys, fox, red tail hawks, grey herrings, ducks, geese etc… We see them frequently depending on the season.

But on this early evening, around 5:30pm we saw something very, very different. There was an animal, about the size of a labrador retriever pouncing on something in our front yard. At first, I thought it was someone’s loose dog…but, then we saw the tail. Because it was 5:30pm, it was dark, but not really dark…just dark enough that I couldn’t make out the color. We rolled our windows down to see if we could hear anything…It pounced one more time, but then saw our headlights…it ran over to a tree, leapt into the tree and climbed up…but, oh… that tail. It had to be two and a half feet long!… AND the clawing sound it made, as it latched onto the tree, before scurrying up to the branches…

Then, it dawned on me…I think that was the mountain lion… the mountain lion our neighbor talked about!

My daughter and I just looked at each other. We were both a little freaked out, and in dis-belief at the same time. The next morning we had a very experienced hunter and tracker, come to our house and examine the area. He found clear pad prints of a large cat, as well as signs that it was a female in heat…There was no sign of what the animal had pounced on. Maybe a field mouse, or a small rabbit?…but nothing was there.

The tracker made the conclusion that yes, he absolutely believed it is a female mountain lion…

We called Encon twice to let them know. While the person we spoke with was very kind and polite, they are clearly not interested in examining the area. They reiterated that to me during both phone calls.

But then….last night I got a phone call from a woman about 10 minutes away from where we live. Her daughter had heard about what we saw via my daughter’s Facebook, and told her mom.  She said, “I believe that cat is over here. We have the pad prints all the way around the barn, and it clearly went into the barn. I believe it’s in heat because of some of the markings it left.” I asked her how big the pad prints were and she said about 2- 2  1/4 inches. She took pictures of them, and also called Encon. They repeated the same thing to her, as they did to me, saying even if it is a mountain lion, there is not much they are going to do. After all, they are in their natural mountainous habitat… Yet, at the same time, Encon denies mountain lions exist in the upstate NY area. They told me twice that the lions don’t live here. They said the same thing to the woman who called me on the phone.

So,… anyone out there hear much about the existence of mountain lions around here? Anybody ever have an experience with Encon’s response?

One thing we did do, was go and purchase a trail camera. We put it up and are going to move it around different areas of our property….I will say this though… I look at my trees a little differently now…

Liz Lemery Joy

26 Responses

  1. T. Partist says:

    It’s Obama’s fault. More guns and tigher immigration policy and we wouldn’t be dealing with lions eating our freedoms and liberties.

  2. kilgore Trout says:

    My wife swears she saw one years ago in Chatham, near the border between Columbia and Rensselaer Counties. So I believe you and it is possible, why not.

    Here’s an interesting article on Mountain Lions in the Adirondacks where they are officially extinct.

    “One day in 1997, Ken Kogut was driving down a highway in the New York’s Adirondack Mountains and he saw something that shouldn’t have been there.

    “A mountain lion, bounds out into the middle of the road and stops dead,” he recalled.

    The reason this cougar sighting is so remarkable is that Kogut is a top biologist with the state conservation department. “

  3. Joseph Cea says:

    When I wrote Tracking Wildlife I had an article about mountain lions in NYS. Prints were found by a ENCON officer in the Lake George area a few years ago and more recently one was actually killed on a Connecticut highway. That one was determined to have come from the Dakotas and why it by-passed all suitable habitat between there and CT no one knows. For my article I spoke to DEC biologist Gordon Batcheller and former NYS museum curator of mammals Roland Kays who both indicated that there were no mountain lions in NYS and that all states that border NY also have no lions making it all the more unlikely. That said what they meant by no mountain lions in NYS wasn’t in reference to individuals passing through but a breeding population.

    Problem is even when one is caught on trail cameras the authenticity is always questioned and because lions are so elusive actual sightings are usually fast and most folks don’t have their cameras ready to start clicking away.

    There is evidence to suggest that mountain lions are in NYS but no evidence to suggest a breeding population but ultimately the difference may be bureaucrat double speak after evidence was actually found and no one at DEC wanted to admit they were wrong and don’t actually conduct wildlife surveys to know what wildlife is actually in NYS. Only time will tell if a breeding population exists and BTW as an avid hunter and trapper I find very few things more spiritual that being in my tree stand at sunrise….and at sunset and in fact any time in between!

    Did you ever see my blog article “Thou Shall Not Kill”? I discussed hunting and trapping from a religious perspective – a reverend named Stephen VanTassel helped me with it. Not to pat myself on the back but that one was one of my better articles and very fun to write.

    • Liz Lemery Joy says:

      Joseph Cea,

      Just looked. Will try to find it! Would like to read it.

      PS- went back 5 pages on your site. Can you send me the link? :)

  4. Joseph Cea says:

    Here it is – since I don’t write the blog anymore I don’t know if you’ll find it but thought I’d put it here for you.

    Thou Shall Not Kill
    January 23, 2011 at 12:13 pm by Joseph Cea
    Both my parents are NYC Italians which meant both parents are NYC Catholics. You guessed it I grew up attending weekly mass and CCD classes through the 8th grade when I received my Confirmation and believe it or not was actually an alter server for a couple of years. Consequently when hunting and later trapping (specifically nuisance wildlife trapping) became the dominant force in my life that it is I had questions as to whether or not these activities violated the laws of my faith and the teachings of Christ.
    Although I have read books and articles over the years on religion and hunting there are two that stand out that really make this issue very clear. The first is “Know Hunting: Truths, Lies and Myths” by Dr. David Samuel, former wildlife Professor at West Virginia University available at and “Dominion Over Wildlife” by Stephen M. Vantassel, project coordinator for wildlife damage management at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Tutor of Theology at King’s Evangelical Divinity School available at Both books are well written and not only provide insight that all hunters need but also a thorough debunking of the opposite, animal rights point of view.
    To start with the Ten Commandments outline the different sins that can be committed but all of them were directed toward humans since they alone were created in God’s image. According to Samuel and Vantassel then one cannot sin against an animal only against another human so the fifth commandment “thou shall not kill” does not apply to animals as scripture does indicate that although the world is God’s property and we are to treat it as such that we are granted the use of its components for sustenance and survival i.e. hunting/trapping and fishing. Additionally, the fifth commandment CANNOT refer to animals since the Bible refers to the killing of animals in sacrifices. Clearly, God is not asking us to sin. In fact, Vantassel indicates that to withdraw from our responsibility and limits to this authority are as dangerous as over-reaching with it. Granted not all killing of animals by humans can be justified in this manner but that is a long way off from saying that humans may not kill and eat animals at all.
    To illustrate further and to also demonstrate the limits of this stewardship authority we have been granted take the issue of poaching. Samuel indicates that in poaching a hunter that has taken “an extra” animal or one they do not have permission to take is committing a sin in being selfish but not against the animal but other hunters that would then not have the opportunity to harvest or even observe that particular critter. Clearly, poaching is also a crime that our various governments have established but consider that wildlife laws are a product of a society with Judeo-Christian values and must be obeyed on a dual level as they do not conflict with God’s law relative to stewardship. So even though we have been granted dominion and stewardship there are limits so we can’t just do whatever we want to God’s property and that includes while hunting but also more important wildlife issues such as habitat destruction.
    The Bible does have references to hunting and that it is seen as a blessing and as mentioned before scripture does actually teach that the world is God’s property and that we are stewards of that property but in the course of that management can use animals for sustenance including hunting, fishing, trapping and livestock. There are also Peter and other Apostles as fishermen by trade. Jesus at one time commanded the Apostles to toss their nets and they were filled with all the fish they could haul in. How then can fishing, both catch and release or for sustenance be morally wrong if not only did the Apostles do it but also Jesus himself?
    Another very interesting aspect to Vantassel’s book is the idea that Christian animal rights activists often focus only on the parts of scripture that bolster their positions and simply ignore other more concrete examples and interpretations. In other words they theorize and find any bit of evidence to back up that theory and ignore the larger picture which could in fact provide and result in a much different outlook. I find this concept to be more than 100% correct when debating with AR folks. It seems that more often than not they don’t view the larger picture of all of the possible consequences of the actions they are advocating. Take hunting for example; AR folks have this pre-conceived notion that stopping hunting will decrease animal suffering but fail to see the larger picture which in many cases involves an imbalanced population relative to its habitat (that hunting often corrects) which when all is said and done causes more widespread suffering through starvation and disease. The proposed solution ended up causing more suffering then the perceived problem. Their philosophies are often derived in a backwards manner. Instead of reading all applicable data and forming a hypothesis AR folks create the theory and then try and fit the evidence into that pre-conceived notion. The problem is that nature doesn’t work that way.
    On that same note, AR folks, according to Vantassel make the erroneous assumption that having power i.e. dominion over something automatically implies abuse. That is very evident in that the AR position is often very black and white and that the terms “use” and even “misuse” are not part of their vocabulary – only “abuse” and “leave be”. The concept of Shepherdism, which wildlife management to a certain extent is based on implies that the entire species must first be protected prior to the needs of the individual. Indeed the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one!
    I must admit that much of my questioning first started when my nuisance wildlife business began taking shape. How could I justify capturing and killing wildlife for trying to survive or like a beaver for doing what they were designed to do? First of all much of my business is centered on wildlife education. In many cases I come across customers that try things themselves, which is understandable, but many don’t know a lot about the wildlife they are dealing with and at times do more damage than good. I know for a fact that the information I have provided over the years to thousands of customers has saved more wildlife and provided a higher level of tolerance for wildlife. Again taking from Vantassel, humans were created as the pinnacle of the hierarchy of life and as such humans have dominion (with limits) but morally I can solve a human/wildlife concept in favor of human health and well being. The nuisance wildlife permit in NY is actually very much in line with this manner of thinking. In order for me to deal with wildlife issues there has to be some kind of damage or threat. I cannot simply remove an animal “because it’s there”. A few years back a repeat customer called about squirrels. She had been feeding them and then one day they were gone. She suspected a fox and even a fisher that had been seen around the neighborhood and she wanted me to trap one or both because they damaged her squirrels. I had to explain that not only were the squirrels not hers personally but collectively but that a predator taking prey did not constitute damage and would violate my permit and the very premise which the permit is based – the notion that we have dominion but not absolute power.
    The last aspect about Vantassel’s book that is the most thought provoking provides a possible explanation as to why vegetarians/vegans often appear to be very arrogant and look down at anybody that has the audacity to consume meat. He highlights three basic arguments that apparently provide the basis for acting so “high and mighty”. The first is the argument for compassion citing that societal killing and meat eating are somehow connected and that a vegetarian diet places limits on violent activity. AR folks have a difficult time accepting the responsibility and blessing of human dominion and as a result reject that dominion as evil and violent. Granted there is poor dominion but it is false to overreact and say that all dominion is evil and a basis to look down at others. In fact Vantassel points out that it is improper to suggest that a meat eater is any less of a righteous Christian than a vegetarian. The second dubbed the stewardship argument contends that vegetarianism is healthier, which is a personal issue and consumes fewer resources which is nowhere close to being true. Consistent with not thinking an issue through to fruition AR people fail to note that in order to produce vegetarian meals for everyone that vast monocultures of plants would have to be produced and while it would be great for the species that can thrive off those monocultures that by and large most species will experience more suffering and death at the loss of species diversity. The third is the restraint or “no need” argument. From a purely caloric intake standpoint one would have to agree that we do not need to hunt and that is often the focus of AR folks but there is so much more to the “need” to hunt. Aldo Leopold, founder of the Wildlife Society, and arguably the “father of wildlife management” as we know it today believed that without hunting humans would surely lose our environmental consciousness or “land ethic” as he called it and that hunting, trapping and fishing represented our need to be connected to the land.
    To conclude, by no means do I think that all vegetarians are arrogant nor do I wish to come across as a religious zealot and anyone that knows me knows that there are certain aspects of Catholicism I have nothing but contempt for but that said my concept of right and wrong was born out of the same Judeo-Christian values used every day in American society and as such when I had questions as to the morality of hunting, trapping and fishing I looked to the only faith I knew. This is not to say that other faiths are invalid but I cannot evaluate these topics based on beliefs I have not grown through although to some extent I have embraced the Iroquois/Delaware creation myth relative to hunting in that it provides very concrete examples by which to live by. I believe that Christianity and the latter creation myth cannot be that far apart considering how easily they appear to fit together relative to right and wrong and good and evil. The bottom line is from a Christian standpoint I believe that not only do I have dominion over wildlife but that that dominion has limits and a certain responsibility that goes along with it (one I take very seriously) and that I can morally hunt, trap and fish to fulfill that responsibility.

    • Liz Lemery Joy says:

      Thank you. That was a really good article. I personally don’t hunt, but I support hunting, like you say with balance and respect, as well as population control, for food, sustenance etc…Thank you so much for sharing it here.

  5. ReepDaggle says:

    Given the topics of your last three threads, you probably don’t need to point out when your theme is NOT about Christianity, but rather when it IS. At least this one isn’t political.

    T. Partist,
    That’s funny, and a very good statement on the two themes preceding this one. :)

    • Liz Lemery Joy says:

      Hey…I just like to make the announcement, lol,- it’s just how I am…I make the announcement and then proceed with what I’m going to say…

    • Liz Lemery Joy says:

      Troy Taxpayer-
      I know, I read it. Had no idea that article was being written. Well, in my opinion- they don’t need to re-introduce them, because they are already here….

  6. ann says:

    Neat! Another reason to keep pets inside though.

    I understand ECON not coming out. Yes, it’s frustrating that they say there are no Mountain Lions up here when you have proof, and then won’t look at it. Perhaps if they did though it might open a can of worms in terms of people freaking out about wild animals living near them and wanting ECON “get rid of them” – which I would totally disagree with. One of the perks of living out in the country is the wildlife -all of it.

  7. realist says:

    Mountain Lions: One more reason that a law abiding New Yorker might want a semi-automatic rifle.

  8. d chap says:

    I also live in an upstate and mountainous area of NY. I have written about this many times on the internet-sorry if this is repeat for you-but, in November of 2011, while traveling from Syracuse to Binghamton, I saw a dead young mountain lion on the shoulder of I-81 between Castle Creek and Whitney Point. I had no idea what type of animal it was at the time and had no particular interest in wild life-so I did not make any assumptions about what I saw. I saw a tan (what I used to call Red-like an orange/tan cat) cat like animal lying on its side-with a round cat face but much bigger than a house-cat (but not long like some pics of mountain lions) with black markings (that reminded me of a raccoon but it was not a raccoon). It had a long tail that cleared the legs in a semi-ciricle coming midway the length of the torso. The tail did not taper like a house cat and it was dirty near the tip (I thought it was gravel but now realize it was probably just the color of the tail). The most interesting thing is that a year earlier someone had posted that he had seen a full grown cat on the rocks that surround i-81 at Whitney Point-where 81 seems to cut through rocks. That was a full year earlier and I did not see his post until after I started writing on the web to see if anyone else saw the dead cat. I think there is an adult cat that lives and is breeding in that area What else would explain a sighting of an adult one year and a sighting of a dead adolescent the following year. Where do you live? is it anywhere nearby?

    • Liz Lemery Joy says:

      d chap,
      I don’t live along there. But, I have read that mountain lions, depending on whether they are male or female can cover many miles, going back and forth.

  9. Troy Taxpayer says:

    Heh, yeah. As Joe points out, there is a big difference between breeding populations of Mountain Lions calling upstate NY home and the likely transient stalking your driveway. As the picture in Brian Nearing’s article linked above illustrates, these kitties can and do migrate huge distances.

    I have no problem with a full scale re-introduction, especially in the northern reaches of the Adirondacks, but I’ll certainly keep my kids a little closer when hiking and camping. They might be a little further from the top of the food chain than they are accustomed to.

  10. Victoria R. says:

    Woah, awesome!! I was going to suggest you set up a wildlife camera, but you came to that conclusion yourself. You have to share the pitures if you get any. Do you ever talk to Alyssa Johnson over at the Discovering Wildlife blog?
    So how do you feel about the cat making your backyard part of its home? What would you want the DEC to do about it, and what can they do about it? I think it’s really cool and I hope we don’t hear about her being shot and killed, but at the same time I would be pretty nervous too. Be careful!

    • Liz Lemery Joy says:

      Victoria R.

      Yeah, well…right now we’re just on the look out :) I certainly wouldn’t harm an animal that wasn’t harming us. We live in a mountainous area. There are all sorts of animals. Bears too. But, I am more alert, and I make more noise going up and down the driveway. I don’t want to startle any animals. Yikes.

      Oh. PS- yes when I check the trail camera, if I get some cool pics I will def. post them!

  11. d chap says:

    Yes, about the travels. If you are in the Albany area, the route from there to Whitney point is pretty rural, mountainous rocky and filled with rivers and steams-perfect territory for a lion.

  12. There are fewer than 100 Florida Panthers in the Everglades area, and a couple a year get hit by cars. If there was a population of mountain lions around here, they’d be getting hit or shot all the time. And everyone has a camera with them all the time now — where are the pictures?

  13. d chap says:

    Well there are now more and more pictures. When I saw the dead lion I did not know there was any controversy about what I was seeing. Other people see them only briefly. But, take a look at what is happening in Missouri. There are more and more documented sightings in areas outside the usual. It may be that they are not breeding in these other areas. Maybe they run back to California to breed but I doubt it. Officials in Missouri were denying lions until the cameras started showing images of them with some regularity. It is only a matter of time before NY cameras do the same-as long as NY officials allow the cameras, that is.

  14. jakester says:

    Liz, is it possible you saw a large fisher cat, they have very long tails and can run up a tree in a second. I did think I saw a big cat several years ago hunting in Schagticoke. I hope no one is serious about stocking cats in NY, it will make it dangerous. They have been know to take hikers, bikers and the occasional wandering drunk.

    • Liz Lemery Joy says:


      I certainly think it is possible I saw a fisher yes. However, the pad prints are larger than a fisher ( I believe, and so did the tracker)- Also, the third report when the woman called me measuring 2-2 1/4 wide prints around her barn. Those are pretty big for a fisher….I think, although I am certainly not a wild life expert…

  15. Magpies says:

    #20 Good point.

  16. Jeanne says:

    Liz…I really enjoy your blog, and appreciate all of the insight you have. I especially enjoy reading about your experiences as a parent, and I commend your courage in taking a stand on many issues of faith. On the subject of the spirituality of killing/eating animals, I offer this:

    When we were given dominion over animals, I believe it was so that we would care for them, not kill and eat them. We have enough healthy options available to us such that killing and eating animals is no longer necessary for sustenance. I know this is a sensitive issue, but if you get a chance to look at the link, I’d love to know what you think. Thanks..