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More Greek myths

The need to speak truth to weakness

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Contrary to EU propaganda that the EU is the greatest free trade zone, other free trade pacts have been more successful.

NAFTA has created a Mexican middle class that Greece can only dream of. See below.


"A wary but tenacious middle class is fast becoming the majority in Mexico.

It is the Mexico where NAFTA dreams came true, where billions in foreign investment have fostered a flourishing aircraft-manufacturing industry anchored by companies such as Bombardier Aerospace, General Electric and Siemens..."

Pumpernickel_ in reply to emmafinney


Plitplow will tell who try delete Pumperbot post all.
Is Brain, is Dirtlick, is Crammerboyovicz hate Pumperbot all.

Like say Comrade Lenin: Trust good, Control better!!
So Pumperbot visit Big Pig for control Italy comrades
Visit with Borsalino for collect fakelaki for Brussels solidarnosc
For van Rompoyvicz make happy
Pumperbot make offer cannot refusenik
So Italy comrade must give. Like give or Pumperbot angry.
Pumperbot evil when angry. Pumperbot Germanz :-/


People, it's Christmas time. Let's be merry (not Marie)
and sing a beautiful song:

Christmas is coming,
The Greeks are getting fat,
Please put a penny
In the old German’s hat.
If you haven't got a penny,
A ha'penny will do,
If you haven't got a ha'penny,
Then the devil shall get you.

Liebe G(K)riechen, Wir geben doch für euch unser letztes Hemd....


Germany seems to be one of the few countries which actually HAS learned from history. Germany's experience tells her to control the source of all financial world crises since 1929. These crises are, in Germany's history books, manmade . . . due to a lack of restraint.

Thus, Germany will most likely seek to influence events from the vantage point of her own "successful historical experience" . . . which wasn't January 1933, but June 1948.

After two lost wars and hyperinflation 'the nation' firmly believes in self-control and prudence . . . which are the opposite traits of self-indulgence and imprudence (as exercised by some other well-known countries).

In my view, Germany will, under no circumstances, turn into a 'krug-mania' state of mind. This would be completely against the nation's grain of thinking, as I’ve, historically confirmed, learned when being there.

So, don't count on the German electorate, if you see the solution for the euro-crisis in ever more borrowing . . . or 'stimuli' with money you don't have. The collective experience of the German nation tells them that inflation is a cheap straw fire, a bogus-solution which, long-term, enhances the underlying economic problems instead of curing them.

The quite successful Freiburg School of Economics combines law and economics to get a unique perspective on economics under the guiding principle of sustainability. I guess that France, Greece and Italy just picked the wrong partner “to go to bed with” in 2001. However, the Bundesbank told 'you' so, over and over again . . . and in due time. Mitterrand, Delors and Prodi just weren’t listening.

The German economic school teaches that the Wall Street Crash in October 1929 wasn't a natural disaster falling out of the blue sky. Speculation bubbles are manmade events in their books, results of man-borne imprudence and extravaganzas.

And, of course: it's true, that the crash in 1929 was also due to a creeping lack of confidence in the legal tenders of the time. People started fleeing 'like crazy' into alternative 'values', after the world trade system, previously based on the value of Pound Sterling and on gold, had ceased to exist and all National Banks, except for Britain which followed 1931, had started to decouple their currencies from the promise given to their holders: To be as safe a storage for accrued assets "as gold".

This started the "age of thin-air-monies", with never-ending financial 'bubbles' and economic crises. Not only the US mortgage-market burst was the result of sub-prime bubble lending, also the Spanish and Irish real estate crashes were; so are all European sovereign current cash flow problems and insolvencies. This is the reason why a majority of the German electorate firmly believes that more debt never can heal a debts-induced sickness.

A strategy which speculates on ever more indebtedness of the German taxpayer will not be realizable. If the Merkel government doesn’t stop it, then surely Germany's Constitutional Court will.

Those Europeans who still believe in witches and ghosts, simply should form their own currency- and debt-club, neither including the German taxpayer nor the Deutsche Bundesbank.

FranciscoLebre in reply to la.výritý

To share the same currency brought great advantages but also many inconveniences for both richer and poorer countries. Now ALL of them are just trying to keep their advantages and forget the inconveniences. Destroying the Euro and European Union will lead ALL Europeans to misery. Germans cannot forget that much of his GDP is due to southern countries debt. Sharing the same currency imply sharing wealth and also sacrifices. For all. With the crisis Germany is now taking benefits by having negative interest rates while some indebted countries, like Portugal, are trying to pay all their debts with usurious interests. As Portuguese we do not want more money from you germans. We just want to share the same risk.

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý


Except that if the euro would have depended on the Bindesbank will, it wouldn't have exitsted at all, but was a political will, first in the EU book since the seventies, second, in Kohl's book, hey, the euro would solve his political dilemn for having annexed eastern Germany, thus having destroyed eastern Germany basic economical means by forcing them to compete into the western DM monetary system, the euro would smooth the difference in the economical levels from the eastern and western Germanies, as the euro was forecasted rating bow the DM, (at the begining even than the dollar, $0,80)

and third, Kohl need France for that, hence his rescuing of the franc in 1992 when the other currencies were attacked by the markets around.

In 1930, Germany was the world leader for exportations, and depended on it for its faring. The German industry depended on foreign loans for carrying on working. So, evidently when WS crash happened the whole german industry got jammed.

France's economy suffered less since it was mainly supported by french savings and family businesses, though the french economy got "crippled" because it was relying on the gold standard (until 1936), that the Brits abandonnedearlier.

Josh_US Lux in reply to FranciscoLebre

@ FrancisoLebre:



Wrong on all accounts, as usual.

1) GERMANY pays an average of around 2 % on its debt. That's hardly a "negative interest rate", as you claim.

2) PORTUGAL, enjoying ESF (and soon ESM) loans at rates sponsored by its euro zone partners, is paying around 3.5 % on its debt. That's the LOWEST interst rate Portugal EVER had to pay in its modern history. If it had to rely on the markets, Portugal would have to pay around 15 % at present. You don't want European credits any more? Great! Turn to the markets and default already, for all I care.

Your posts convince the reader of one thing: That DENIAL is at the core of the Southern European crisis.

SinnFrei in reply to FranciscoLebre

"As Portuguese we do not want more money from you Germans. We just want to share the same risk."

Ahm, that actually translates into Germany taking away part of your risk. And this translates into Germany money going South. But never mind, after a couple of years of working with Southern taught me on thing: Logic ain't yours.

Rivierarocket in reply to Marie C.

Do you do anything worthwhile with your life other than scouring the internet for links so you can answer every person every time someone makes a post and in your own denial of reality try to prove yourself right. I would be interested in knowing. I mean you know everything about everything. Oh! Sorry, I forgot you're French!

FranciscoLebre in reply to SinnFrei

The facts are:
- Portugal is still paying his debts, even with higher interest rates. Never defaulted.

- Germany is profiting with the European crisis.

You can work many years with Southern but you will never learn logic.

You German have your own unique logic. Since 1914.
"From defeat to defeat until the final victory", that is your logic.

la.výritý in reply to FranciscoLebre

There are no advantages in dealing with countries which can't pay for their purchases . . . absolutely no advantages.

The German Banks that lent money to peripherals (mostly for interest rates at around or below inflation rate) won't, for a bigger part, see their money anymore.

The pressure to write down their peripheral lending will increase to a level it was already seen in the case of Greece, where the Eurozone banks had to write down 75% of their Greek debt holdings, much more than they'd received combined in interest (of around 2.5% to 3% on average) over the 2 previous decades. That's no 'business', it's pure loss.

The volume of Germany's total trade (exports and imports) amounted to €2,443 billion in 2011, with a trade surplus of €133 billion or 5.% of the nation's total trade volume.

The surplus with euro-countries amounted to approx €51.8 billion. According to an open access study of Econstor, the average rate of profit in German manufacturing firms is rather small compared to American internet firms such as Google or Facebook.

The rate of profit for exporters is at around 12 percent at most. This means that of the €51.8 billion trade surplus, not more than 6.22 billion were company profits in 2011, rather less in previous years.

Projected onto the 10 years of the euro's existence, this was at most approx €62 billion profit for Germany-based exporters within the Eurozone. As of 1 January 2008, Germany’s corporation tax rate is 15% flat. This means that the German taxpayer 'profited' approx €7.44 billion in tax income from the economy's entire trade surplus within Eurozone for the whole period of the Euro's existence (since 2002).

Compare this with the billions the German taxpayer is asked now to spend on bailouts and guarantees towards peripheral Eurozone countries. The benefits for the German taxpayer are really 'peanuts' compared to its liabilities for the Eurozone.

Furthermore, the money for the export sales to Eurozone deficit-countries never arrived at the German Bundesbank. It is imply added to those countries negative TARGET2 accounts, which has reached the staggering amount of €719.35 billion in October 2012, a sum which has to be borne by the German taxpayer if the peripherals' central banks fail to settle their TARGET2 liabilities also in future (which is more than likely).

These huge bills hang as a kind of Sword of the Damocles over the German taxpayers, while the same taxpayers only had a very meager 'profit' from the economy's exports into the Eurozone. As a matter of fact, the German taxpayer's exposure via TARGET2 exceeds the 'profits' made on the corresponding exports by Ten-Thousand Percent (!!!)

FranciscoLebre: “Sharing the same currency implies sharing wealth and also sacrifices?”

When was wealth 'shared' under these actual circumstances?

The fact rather is that the euro deficit countries received expensive machinery, valuable Mercedes, Porsche, BMW and Audi cars, pharmaceuticals or precision instruments for FREE! They never paid Germany for it!

The €719.35 billion missing in the Bundesbank (effective September 2012) to be settled, were used by peripheral central banks to pay the Russian central bank for imported natural gas and to Saudi Arabia and the Emirates for imported mineral oil . . . and last but not least was dent to China for the import of consumer electronics.

So far the peripheral trade liabilities toward the German Bundesbank amount to almost €800 billion! They are currently burdened solely on shoulders of the German taxpayers by this Eurozone – not counting the bailouts for peripheral countries and the guarantees via ECB (Germany’s share 27%) and EFSF credits!


Germany is marketing its own 10-year debt currently for 1.29%, not for negative interest rates. But even if this were the case, this is none of another countries business, since this rate can be 3% or more within less than 6 months.

And it's only Germany that can claim credit for low interest on its sovereign debt since it’s a direct reflection of the market’s trust in Germany’s future financial solvency and responsibility. Also other trustworthy countries, like Austria and Holland, pay low sovereign interest rates; Switzerland's rates are even lower than Germany's.

Furthermore, no European government lends money to anyone. Governments are no banks!

The eurozone countries’ taxpayers only act as guarantors for the money lent to the countries in need by private banks or the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF). Germany has only a 27% share in these bailouts. Other creditor countries filling the bailout pot too, pay much more, in some cases more than they get in return from the deficit countries.

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

You really don't know what you are talking about. The reunification didn't have a 'boosting' effect on the DEM. Unification took place officially October 3, 1990. The USD - DEM exchange rate stood at 1 : 1.48 on that date and the DEM had dropped in value toward the USD to 1 : 1.74 in Jan 1994, where it pretty much remained until it became certain that the Euro will be the official currency from Jan 1, 1999 on. In July 1998, only 5 months before the Euro replaced the DEM, the USD - DEM rate was at 1 : 1.82, which is 1 USD to 0.90 EUR. This is pretty much where the EURO started at 1 USD to 0.86 EUR.
There was absolutely no economic reason, why the EURO lost in value after 1999, except of Germany's recession, which began immediately after the introduction of the EURO, Jan 1999.
Most countries which are now in trouble started booming like crazy with the introduction of the EURO . . . with the exception of Germany. In June 2001, when Germany was referred to a 'sick man of Europe', the Euro was at its lowest exchange rate ever: 1 USD to 1.17 EUR. So, not Germany's strength had lowered the value of the EURO but Germany's economic weakness. . . . And it was surely not Germany's economy which made the value of the Euro rise again in October 2003 to its introduction value of 1 USD to 0.85 EUR.
It's not rocket science to know that, if Germany would have had its own currency then, the economy would never have slumped like this. It was rather the boom of the periphery, including Ireland's, which boosted the value of the EURO from 2002 on.
Wikipedia: The euro was introduced to world financial markets as an accounting currency on January 1, 1999, at a exchange rate to the USD of EUR 1 : USD 1.1743. Thus the Euro was valued much higher then the dollar. Euro coins and banknotes entered circulation on 1 January 2002. While the euro dropped subsequently to US$0.8252 within two years (26 October 2000), it has traded above the US dollar since the end of 2002, peaking at US$ 1.5990 on 15 July 2008. Since late 2009, the euro has been immersed in the European sovereign-debt crisis . . . In July 2012, the euro fell below US$ 1.21 for the first time in years, following concerns raised over Greek debt and Spain's troubled banking sector.
There is absolutely nor indication that the EURO has in any way helped Germany's economy in managing the unification problems . . . rather the opposite is true, since the Bundesbank had lost the control over interest rate and money supply, as substantiated here by me.

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý

Germany's recession was there before the introduction of the euro

your referrence to the 2000 years is the side effect of the technological NET bubble in Germany, requesting the ECB to lower its intersets so that the peripherical countries could borrow easy money, thus boosting the german enterprises. The euro value started to grow after 2006

well explained here:

Rivierarocket in reply to Marie C.

The only stalking is in your sick histrionic wishful thinking mind. People like you are the reason I stay away from French women. You never know what kind of sick stories they are capable of inventing.

Pumpernickel_ in reply to la.výritý


I sincerely hope that you are right, as most German taxpayers, I would say more than 80%, are not really interested and well informed and focusing on their own life, the crisis perceived as something happening elsewhere.

They may only wake up when it is too late and ESM already having created facts and money being printed like crazy, when it will become irreversible: the Transfer Union. Our only chance then will lie in the fact that the EZ is seen as the smaller risk and offering the best return to investors. It is unlikely it will be left standing, if the BoE goes belly up. USA will probably not suffer too much, due to its geopolitical situation and the big club it carries. The sick man of Europe is not France, it is the UK. Let’s hope it is too big to fail and will be kept on life support until the debt has been miracled away by the real inflation or stretched for another generation until 2030. At least we will not be liable for it as, mercifully, they are not part of the EZ.

Marie C. in reply to Rivierarocket

oh then you've seen that your love parade wasn't appreciatted by french women

sorry but the sik stories are YOUR specialities, I'm not the one that brought them on board, too bad what you thought as a flame against the french turned into your disavantage

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.


The German industry was actually 'owed' to WS lenders after the hyper inflation, which had destroyed all private assets and foreign export earnings went straight into service the Versailles reparations.

No, do you even know what monetary policy is, and how it's suppose to work, how essential it is to any monetary union? It means a proactive ECB guaranteeing an adequate portion of the debt of all member nations. Without it, of course the Markets will attack. Without it, there are much better places to park your money.

My God, if you all had treated East Germany like you do Europe's periphery nations, the East Germans would have never agreed to join up with the West. Really, I mean, the Euro was vehicle to complete Germans reunification and that's it then? How selfish minded.

Germany is in bed with the periphery nation's elite politicians. They are the ones who sold out their people to this ridiculously self serving German interpretation of what a monetary should be.

Typical German attitude. Buy from us, but no logistical support from the ECB is allowed, as it might result in inflation for future generations of Germans. It's Germany's cake and she wants to eat it all by herself, but I'm throwing a light on this situation.

Well, it didn't work, although it put a lot of money in Germany's pockets short term, so it is going to be changed now. The Markets said NO, so it will be changed. Get used to it, and never mind those trash magazines of yours.

The Greek elites? Without them agreeing to these one sided German terms, Germany could not have screwed Greece so badly. Germany is bed with the Greek elites. Anyone who says otherwise is a blinkered fool.

You want to learn about global macroeconomic policy and how to build a viable monetary union, begin by studying our counter cyclical monetary policy here in the USA. You do not tighten during a Recession, EVER!!!

Now, don't even try and tell me about the high rate of taxation in the Northern countries again. Taxes are high becasue you have a myriad of social programs. You keep your surroundings spotless. That is the only reason. The money is being spent on yourselves. Me? I don't like it. I like my taxes low. Screw the general surroundings. In other words, you have not helped anyone but yourselves so far.

That needs to change, and Germany has very reluctantly agreed to do so, but behind the scenes she is still working on changing it as slowly as is viably possible.

At this point, what should happen here, is the whole thing should fall apart. Who the world blames afterwards is of little concern to me.

You have the right people in place in the periphery nations to perpetuate this nonsense, but that will not remain so forever so Germany better start playing Team Ball here fast, or I, an American of Greek descent know who Americans will blame if it all somehow falls apart.

At first it would have been Greece if they took the bate and left. Not anymore. Denial will not save Germany yet a 3rd time. You've all gone to that well once too often.

Wake up la vy. As to your efficiency rules comment. You can organize your $hit all you want. The Japanese are very efficient, and yet might makes right.

Only a fool would attempt to interpret history without taking into consideration the victors and the losers of the 2nd World War.

America is the global leader for this reason. As an American you should embrace this. You're not German. Yes, Germany's a fine place in many respects, but nobody likes a kiss up.

By the way, Germany and the World are much better places because Germany lost the war.

Or would you prefer your son and his family being woken up in the middle of the night to be carted off to some labor camp somewhere, because they are not of true German Blood.

You better wake up and be careful what you wish for la vy, or one day, God forbid, you get it in spades.

SinnFrei in reply to FranciscoLebre

"Note that he is not a Southern reporter."

No but a mor*n. Unfortunately, we have those in Germany too.

"Financially healthy Germany..."

Stopped after that sentence. And I always wondered why they close down infrastructure (i.e., libraries, orchestras) in Germany.

"By the way, Germany and the World are much better places because Germany lost the war."

How do you know? How can you compare something that never happened to something that is....


Wouldn't happen because there would not haven been a father/ mother
in the 1st place ...

Easily, I know that the world is a better place without Hitler SinnFrei. Is that your question?

Are you a Nazi sympathizer who prefers revisionist history to cold hard facts? I said denial sometimes serves a purpose, like with the terminally ill.

Sinners must repent however to be forgiven. Not necessarily in the eyes of God. In the eyes of our shared humanity, more importantly to me at least.

The Jewish people were Germans SinnFrei. The Nazis had no right to do what they did.

Enough said on the topic. Best for you to leave it alone as well, rather then try to defend such a heinous act of national betrayal against a most German people, the Jews.

Are you one of those people, German or otherwise, who denies the existence of the Holocaust as well?

SinnFrei in reply to FranciscoLebre

"Do you really need them?.."

We sure do not need a union with failed states like Portugal.
Do you really think we care about your tiny little sh*thole.
Countries like Portugal only bog us (and Europe) down.

Must really s*ck to be you. Always blaming other for your own failure.
Have a nice evening, little piggy ... while you can....

Let's see whom you will blame once the EU and it's gravy train is history. Bye, Bye and hopefully not only for now ....

"Are you a Nazi sympathizer...."

Careful, Careful, Old chap. I nearly feel offended.

I'am a 100% democrat, just that democracy is not for everyone.
I guess Churchill would agree with me.:)

Especially not for South-Europe right now. So irresponsible these people.
They need strong paternal guidance. So it must JFDI for them to hel them out of their misery. ..... Zuckerbrot und Peitsche....

"The Jewish people were Germans ..."
I am staunch nationalist, not a Nazi.
I do not believe in ethnic/racial superiority.
Only in cultural superiority.
And killing or ousting German Jews was like cutting off
one's right arm (with regards to culture, science etc.).
And a lot of the Germans Jews that have been killed by t
he Nazis were staunch nationalist too.
Enough of them died while giving the French and Brits a
good kicking in WW1.
So, you can call me anything, but not a Nazi.......

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

These were no haircuts, they were simply 'giving up' some of the unjustified loot-demands voiced earlier by the victory-drunken grave robbers in Versailles . . . also a result of America's public reaction to these impertinences.

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý

BS besides, you're revisitng history each time you post a comment

no it was Keyness german boyfriendness that empathised with the poor Germans, as he had a german nanny first, and "hated" the French as the Brit bourgeoise families were taught to do from kinderhood !

"The American historian Sally Marks commented the figure of 132 billion marks of reparations imposed by the London Conference of May 1921 was a highly misleading one[11] Reparations were divided into A, B, and C bonds[11] The bulk of the reparations were assigned to the C bonds, which were as Marks called "chimerical" as the Allies did not intend to collect the C bonds, which only existed to give the impression to French public opinion that substantial sums were going to be collected[11] The Allies intended to collect only the A and B bonds, which totaled 50 billion marks, which was an amount that was slightly smaller than the 51 billion marks that the Germans had offered to pay[11] Marks noted that as long as the French occupied the Düsseldorf area in 1921 as an incentive to pay, the Germans paid all of their reparations in full and on time, and it was only after the French pulled out of Düsseldorf in 1922, that the Germans started to default on a regular basis.[12] By late 1922, the German defaults on payments had grown so serious and regular that a crisis engulfed the Reparations Commission as the French and Belgian delegates urging the seizure of the Ruhr as a way of encouraging the Germans to make more effort to pay, and the British delegate urging a lowering of the payments.[13] As a consequence of an enormous German default on timber deliveries in December 1922, the Reparations Commission declared Germany in default, whch led to the occupation of the Ruhr in January 1923.[14] Particularly galling to the French was that the timber quota which the Germans had defaulted was based on a German assessment of their capacity to deliver and then had subsequently been lowered from below the German assessment.[15] There was little doubt among the Allies that the government of Chancellor Wilhelm Cuno had defaulted on the timber deliveries deliberately as a provocation intended to test the willingness of the Allies to enforce reparations if the Germans should chose not to pay.[15] Providing more fuel for the fire was a German default on coal deliveries in early January 1923, which was the thirty-fourth coal default in the last thirty-six months."


Marie C. in reply to Marie C.


"The British economic historian Niall Ferguson in his 1998 book The Pity of War argued that Germany could have paid reparations had there been the political will. Ferguson began his argument by noting that all of the belligerent countries in World War I had endured significant economic losses, not just Germany, and that in 1920–21, German net national product grew at 17%.[39] Ferguson has argued that the German trade deficit of 1920 was caused by speculation promoted in turn by the amalgamation of rapid economic growth in Germany and a weak exchange rate for the mark, and not by the prospect of reparations.[40] Ferguson has contended that the rise in the value of the mark after March 1920 was caused by speculators buying up the mark, and this revaluation of the mark led to inflation becoming a serious problem in Germany from 1921 onwards[40] Ferguson has maintained that the ratio of total German debts in 1921 to the gross national product was less than the ratio of total British debts to the British G.N.P in the same period.[41] Likewise, Ferguson has argued that the total annuity of 3 billion marks imposed by the London conference in 1921, which totalled 4–7% of German national income, was far less than the worries expressed by Keynes of 25–50% of German national income being handled over in reparations.[41] Similarly, Ferguson has argued that France paid 4,933 million francs in reparations to Germany between 1871 and 1873 totalling 25% of French national net income without causing national bankruptcy, and has argued that German claims in the 1920s that reparations payments threatened Germany with bankruptcy were just an excuse to try to get out of paying reparations.[42] Ferguson has argued that the plan called by the Young Committee in 1929 for Germany to pay reparations until 1988 is a far less than the 163 billion marks paid by Germany to the Economic European Community between 1958 and 1998 without experiencing a drastic collapse in living standards, and as such, the Young Plan was not the economically unviable plan as often depicted.[42] The American historian Stephen Schuker has argued that the Germans received as much in American loans, which they never repaid, as Germany paid in reparations.[43] Schuker has noted that between 1921 and 1931, Germany paid 19.1 billion marks in reparations, and in the same time, took in 27 billion marks in loans from the United States, which Germany defaulted on in 1932.[43] Ferguson has argued the principle problem with reparations was not that the sum, but rather that the Allies entrusted the Germans with responsibility for paying reparations voluntarily without occupying significant amounts of German territory as an incentive to pay.[44] Since German politicians were reluctant to raise the necessary taxes to pay for reparations, successive German governments chose to default on reparations out the hope that the Allies were not serious about collecting reparations.[45] Even without reparations, total public spending in Germany between 1920 and 1923 comprised 33% of German net national product, and Ferguson has argued that even if no reparations had been imposed, Germany would still had significant problems caused by the need to pay World War I debts combined with the demands of voters for more social services.[46] As a result of inflation, German debts by 1922 were reduced down to where they had been in 1914.[47] Ferguson has argued that German inflation in the 1920s was not caused by reparations, but rather were a conscious political decision on the part of the German government to employ this particular economic strategy to deal with World War I debts and reparations"

click on all the links, edifying !

Pumpernickel_ in reply to SinnFrei

"The Jewish people were Germans ..."
I am staunch nationalist, not a Nazi.
I do not believe in ethnic/racial superiority.
Only in cultural superiority.
And killing or ousting German Jews was like cutting off
he Nazis were staunch nationalist too.
Enough of them died while giving the French and Brits a
good kicking in WW1.

I am glad you came out with this statement, because I was beginning to wonder about you, not having read all you wrote.
This is precisely my position, which does not mean that I do not heartily dislike some of the individuals here who I believe are Jewish and clobbering ALL of today’s Germany due to their personal family background. They have a right to say what the want and I have a right to clobber them in return for including me and you and 99% of today's Germans in their hate filled rants.

Were we disagree is on Portugal and Spain, who I consider to be more creditworthy than the UK. Yes, they have been spending carelessly but they are doing all it takes to get back in their feet and deserve all the support they get and will get there.

The Greeks is a different matter. Despite my liking zorbas here a lot, I believe the best assistance we can lend the Greeks is to kick them out of the EZ and THEN nurse them back to health with the Drachma. Let them go back to their own level and find their fighting spirit, which they have. Zorbas, BTW, agrees with me here. Unfortunately, this would not be in the best interests of the EU banking lobby and this is the reason we want to keep the Greeks as close as possible. Here I agree with zorbas.

More later.

Pumpernickel_ in reply to SinnFrei

You are right to question the assertion that Germany is benefiting from the discomfort of the GIPS.

I have said if often and I will say it again here, even though LV will hate me for saying it: In Germany we are suffering as well and HAVE STARTED SUFFERING when the GIPS were still partying with easy credit compliments of the German reputation behind the Euro.

When you add the 7 million hidden unemployed on Minijobs to the official 3 million unemployed, we have in Germany, TODAY, an unemployment rate of 34%. Google it up in German. This is fact.

I know what living around and mostly below the poverty line in Germany is all about, since I started helping some of these unfortunates but willing to work hard, negotiate the German authorities in charge of finding Minijobs for them. They usually do NOT help them and only push papers from left to right. The real parasites in Germany are SOME of our civil servants who in a real job situation would not be able to man or woman their post, that’s why they became civil servants, often a last resort for the ones found wanting in many ways, like the church and then, from a position of strength, lording it over their betters in many respects, sensing that they are their betters and hating them for it. By I digress.

I am SICK AND TIRED about some of the GIPS here wailing about their 25% unemployment rate, where many are drawing social benefits IN ADDITION to working in the Black Economy, which the 7 million hidden unemployed in Germany, mostly do not have the time and energy to do after work.

Get real you sissies and see the real situation in Germany. We are not benefiting from your misfortune. You are as bunch of sissies and need a good kick up your podex with a German boot. Join the real world.

Josh_US Lux in reply to Pumpernickel_

@ Pumperfickle:





You should talk to your buddy Pedro about this at some point, btw. (And don't you forget to report later on how it went... ! LOL)

Or you could as well meet Joe in real life. Just saying.

Within the parameters of European dominance Yes, within the parameters of World dominance, No. Another synapse misfire from la vy. It's getting so I can set my watch by it. Perhaps more fat in the diet. Might cure that twitchy left eye as well...laughs

PS - Try the Greek olive oil though. It's actually good for you.

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

MC, your cited historians are either …

1. apologetic of the Treaty of Versailles (and, thus, for their nations’ evil deeds)
or …
2. not economists !

This is the reason why all your 'citations' are, from an economist's point of view, a 'pile of crap'.

True economists and neutral economic historians never shared the unscientific views of the apologetic historians that were mentioned by you.

That's why John Maynard Keynes and other economists always, even shortly after the Versailles' dictate, pointed to the fatal economic consequences of the "Versailles’ Insanity" (Keynes).

Read further for this "The Treaty of Versailles: A Reassessment after 75 Years”, Manfred F. Boemeke, Gerald D. Feldman, Elisabeth Glaser, Cambridge University Press, 1998.

To dismiss the economic assessment of Keynes as "influenced by his nanny" is so typical for the French historical apologists. Yes, France can’t do wrong! - Do you want me to cite what German sources of the time had to say about that treaty? So, please spare us with your 'victor's version' of history!

Churchill, a little wiser than most French nationalists, admitted: "History is written by the victors"!

It's not only that 90% of all historians, when dealing with contemporary history, are influenced by nationalist feelings, it's also a fact that almost all historians, including the one's cited by you, were confusing the Reich’s mark of 1922 with the actual currency the reparations were set, which were ‘goldmarks’.

Thus, Ferguson 'happily' switches back and forth from reparation-marks to the Reichsmark . . . And this still happens nowadays when monetary 'illiterates' talk about the amounts dealt with in Versailles, or when they convert it to "today's dollars". The “reparation marks” were set in "Gold Mark", which had absolutely nothing to do with the Reichsmark Ferguson and other historians are talking about.

As pointed out by Keynes, fact is that the Inter-Allied Reparations Commission set January 1921 the total sum due which defeated Germany had to pay at 269 billion Gold Marks (!!), not 1921-Reichsmarks. One prewar Gold Mark contained 358.42 mg of pure gold with a today's value of approx €15.46 Euro ($19.94) per 1 Gold Mark.

269 billion Gold Marks were the equivalent of 96,415.0 (!!!) tonnes of pure gold. These 96,415.0 tonnes of gold were equivalent to 58.43% of all the gold ever mined in world's history (est. 165,000 tonnes).

Thus, the true amount in today’s value was 5,365 billion USD . . . but: in a no-printable ‘currency’. This amount, btw, was approx 100 times (!!) the amount of reparations France had to pay after the Franco-Prussian war of 1870/71.

It is quite obvious that the Treaty of Versailles was meant to destroy the German economy for good, deviously imposed into that nation by Germany’s fiercest prewar economic competitors.

Unaltered, this was the eternal “economic death sentence”, as John Maynard Keynes proved evidence for with mathematical accuracy in his "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", p.34-47 (Brace and Howe, 1920)

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý

or …
2. not economists !"

you're reading the Nazis history books !!!

"The British economic historian Niall Ferguson",

also Margaret MacMillan, a Historian, (Lloyd George grand daughter) isn't saying anything else

"in fact, compensations should have been ade of coal exportation, but the Germans were striking for that doesn't happen, hence the Ruhr occupation by the French and Belgian troops, until the first Dowes hair cut

the problem is:

"There is another and very significant difference between the ends of the First and Second World Wars which affected the ways in which peace came. In 1918, very little of Germany was occupied by Allied troops. There was discussion at the time and there has been since about whether the Allies should have pursued the war to the end. General Pershing, the American commander-in-chief, whose troops were still relatively fresh and enthusiastic, wanted to go on. He wanted to carry the war into Germany and Allied troops marching in victory through Berlin. From the point of view, though, of Marshal Foch, the French commander-in-chief and Supreme Allied Commander in Chief, the armistice terms which the Germans were prepared to accept, which included their surrendering their heavy armaments and the German navy, were tantamount to a complete capitulation. Foch also pointed out, and he was probably right, that Allied opinion would not stand for more waste of lives when victory seemed assured. His political masters agreed: it would have been politically and militarily very difficult for Britain and France to go on fighting against Germany, once an Armistice had been publicly requested. In retrospect, knowing what we now know, it might have been better to make the sacrifice and occupy Germany in 1918 because many Germans were later able to persuade themselves that Germany had not been defeated and that the peace terms imposed by the Allies were deeply unfair. As it was most Germans never saw Allied troops and the German army which marched back in Berlin was greeted by what was now the President of a Republic as the undefeated."

In recent years a number of historians, myself included, have come to the conclusion that the German treaty was not as bad as it has been portrayed. Whatever the High Command later said, Germany had lost the war. It should have expected to lose territory. If Germany had won, it certainly would have taken territory from its defeated enemies. It should have expected that the Allies, and particularly France, would attempt to limit Germany’s capacity to wage future wars. It should have expected to pay something just as France had paid after it lost the Franco-Prussian War. In fact, the Germany Foreign Ministry had worked out figures and drawn up schedules for the reparations it expected to be imposed. But with a treaty that was widely seen as unjust, and this was right across the political spectrum, there was little will in Germany to pay any reparations. The arguments between Germany and its former enemies, which poisoned international relations for so much of the decade after the war, obscured the fact that Germany never paid that much in the end, probably less than a sixth of what it owed. Nevertheless in Germany, reparations became shorthand for every economic problem, for unemployment and for the dreadful inflation of the early 1920s. The real culprit was fiscal mismanagement by the German government but that is not how it was perceived in Germany. What is true in history is sometimes less important than what people believe to be true"

Or perhaps a toothpick to prop that lazy left eye of yours open.

Poof!!! You've been granted economic foresight site like the Great Zorbas...laughs

Marie, this guy could spend his family's last dime earning his doctorate, and he would still insist the cart is pushing the horse.

La vy: "Look! Look! The world's first motorized cart pushing a horse I tell you."

Poof, double poof, you're a sound businessman la vy...laughs

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý


Keynes was in "business" with Hamburg businessmen (bankster?), and had a german Lover during the Versailles treaty negociations (Melchior in Trier and Spa)who influenced him. It's not surprising that Hitler had Keynes's books on his night table

"John Maynard Keynes, the man – his character, his writings, and his actions throughout life – was composed of three guiding and interacting elements. The first was his overweening egotism, which assured him that he could handle all intellectual problems quickly and accurately and led him to scorn any general principles that might curb his unbridled ego. The second was his strong sense that he was born into, and destined to be a leader of, Great Britain's ruling elite."

the truth is that Germany never had the intention to pay war reparations, as she never acknowledged having been defeated, nor responsible of the war. Inflation was ingeneered for not paying war reparations, but the whole thing imploded into the german face, because of the context, bolchevism was heading there too !

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

Gimme a break, Marie, as if Niall Ferguson and Margaret MacMillan aren't trying to whitewash their nation's crimes.

Plus, neither of them is in the slightest in command of the necessary economic arithmetic to be a competent auditor over the involved macro-economic consequences. They are apologists of the deeds of their respective nations' governments at the time, as most historians are; that's all!

Keynes and other critics of the treaty aren't historians. They are levelheaded financial comptrollers over the facts found on the macroeconomic spreadsheet. There was absolutely no way, as Keynes proved table after table that Germany could feed its own people plus paying the Versailles levies.

In January 1919, John Maynard Keynes traveled to the Paris Peace Conference as the chief representative of the British Treasury. He left the Peace Conference in protest of the treaty, and became one of the most outspoken critics of the punitive agreement. In his The Economic Consequences of the Peace, published in December 1919,

Keynes predicted that the brutal war reparations and other harsh terms imposed on Germany by the treaty would lead to the financial collapse of the country, which in turn would have serious economic and political repercussions on Europe and the world. This collapse was somewhat delayed by huge foreign borrowing of the fragile Weimar Republic, mainly from US creditors.

As Keynes demonstrated in chapter 2 of the treaty-audit, even if postwar Germany would have had at its command the combined economies of Britain, France, Belgium and Italy, it would not have been able to meet the outstanding claims of the treaty without huge foreign loans, repayable preferably 'never' ... or in an undefined, remote future. But this didn't happen.

When the crash of 1929 hit Germany in full and the US investors reclaimed their billions of accounts receivable, Germany's entire economy collapsed like a house of cards. In February 1932, Weimar Germany counted over six million ‘registered’ unemployed. This equals to 44% of the workforce. Thus, in 1932, when the Nazis came to power, Germany had the world's highest percentage of unemployment ever listed in human history in an industrialized nation.

Here is an edited extract from The Economic Consequences of the Peace:

The treaty includes no provisions for the economic rehabilitation of Europe – nothing to make the defeated countries into good neighbours, nothing to stabilise the defeated states of Europe; nor does it promote a compact of economic solidarity among the allies themselves; no arrangement was reached at Paris for restoring the disordered finances, or to adjust the systems of the old world and the new.

The Council of Four [Britain, France, Italy and the US] paid no attention to these issues. It is an extraordinary fact that the fundamental economic problem of a Europe starving and disintegrating before their eyes was the one question in which it was impossible to arouse the interest of the four. Reparation and revenge was their main excursion into the economic field, and they settled it from every point of view except that of the economic future of the states whose destiny they were handling.

Europe consists of the densest aggregation of population in the world. In relation to other continents, it is not self-sufficient; in particular it cannot feed itself. The danger confronting us, therefore, is the rapid depression of the standard of life of the European populations to a point that will mean actual starvation for some (a point already reached in Germany and approximately reached in Austria). Men will not always die quietly. For starvation, which brings to some lethargy and a helpless despair, drives other temperaments to the nervous instability of political hysteria and to a mad despair. And these in their distress may overturn the remnants of democratic organisation.

In a very short time, therefore, Germany will not be in a position to give bread and work to her numerous millions of inhabitants, who are prevented from earning their livelihood by navigation and trade. "We do not know, and indeed we doubt," the [German Economic Commission] report concludes, "whether the delegates of the allied and associated powers realise the inevitable consequences that will take place if Germany, an industrial state, very thickly populated, closely bound up with the economic system of the world, and under the necessity of importing enormous quantities of raw material and foodstuffs, suddenly finds herself pushed back to the phase of her development that corresponds to her economic condition and the numbers of her population as they were half a century ago. Those who sign this treaty will sign the death sentence of many millions of German men, women and children." I know of no adequate answer to these words. - John Maynard Keynes, December 1919.

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.


You are confusing John Maynard Keynes with Dominique Strauss-Kahn

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý

you're confusing your bladder with a lantern

Nial Fergusson and Magaret MacMillan, are both renown historians, that have enough distance to discuss facts, while you're worshipping the Nazis understanding of the situation

I could find other historians that have the same approach, but with you, it's lost pain as you're a fanatic

like if only Keyness had a clue on economics LMAO

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

Marie Clair: " . . . like if only Keynes had a clue on economics".

Are you really such a dumbbell?

More than 50% of all Nobel laureates who received the Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences after WW II ‎based their works, rightly or wrongly, on John Maynard Keynes' teachings; the so called Neo-Keynesian economists.

Even when not everyone shares Keynes' economic theory, nobody in his right mind ever claimed that Keynes didn't master his science and economic math with the greatest virtuosity possible.

"John Maynard Keynes was unquestionably one of the greatest economists of all time" [Milton Friedman].

The Heartland Institute, one of the most conservative and libertarian public policy think tanks in America, which also serves as a clearinghouse for research from other conservative think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation, the American Legislative Exchange Council, and the libertarian Cato Institute, named John Maynard Keynes together with Adam Smith the most influential economists of all times, in spite of the fact that libertarians are normally strictly anti-Keynesian.

And here comes a little dumb-belle from Marie-Clair-sur-l'Elle . . . and declares "like if ... Keynes had a clue on economics".


Pumpernickel_ in reply to Marie C.

Despite all the sniping and badmouthing of La Výritý here by MC and zorbas and alleging him to promote Nazi propaganda about the Versailles treaty when he is citing Keynes most of the time, his argumentation to this neutral observer makes perfect sense, having, in the meantime, also read up on the matter. History, in this instance, really was written by the victors, as Churchill so rightly said, and this unholy treaty contributed in no small measure to the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. LV, as usual, wins this argument hands down.

... but I am not really interested that much in what happened 90 years ago. I am more into what is happening today. Let me regale you, therefore, with this little anecdote of our shopping experience in Venice last night.

Bobonne needing some ingredients for preparing her excellent Italian dinner (a pic will follow in due time) made us go to the local supermarket not far away from our flat, a Coop. We arrived at 19:15 and were surprised when at 19:20 the lights went out at the cheese counter, then in the wine department and so on and we were told that the supermarket was about to close and could we please rush to the check out. We sprinted back and when asking for a plastic bag were rudely refused due to there not being much time. I then let them have it in my best Spanish and suddenly a plastic bag was produced by this ill tempered not too good looking old hag, an Italian version of you know who here.

I then reminded myself that in Germany our local supermarket, Kaiser’s is open till 10pm every day excepting Sunday, when it is closed. In the UK the TESCOS near my son is open 24 hours. No wonder, Joe, you guys are not competitive with Germany and will soon vote BungaBunga in again, so he can make mischief with his fellow thief Olland to threaten Germany out of her well earned 10pm closing time induced surplus. At what time do shops close in Lisbon, Madrid and Athens, can anybody tell us?

Perhaps Merkel was right when insisting that the Greeks work harder, emulate the Germanz? Could it be the same goes for the Italians?

As I mentioned earlier, when you look hard enough at the present situation of the German underclass and the real unemployment of 34% when you include the hidden 7 million unemployed on Minijobs, there would be a good cause to say: “Let’s show solidarity first with our underclass, bail them out, drastically raise their wages and standard of living before even contemplating to the same for the underclass of the GIPS. Solidarity starts at home.”

In this way, and this is where Maher, usually so wrong, is right. Not, as he wrongly claims, by increasing our imports, which is impossible to do when you look at German shelves full of GIPS ware (unlike the shelves in Italy or France, where you will be hard pressed to see something from another land) but, as he rightly claims by increasing our wages, helping our own. Giving them more money to spend on imports from the GIPS, holidaying in GIPS countries and, as a side benefit, lowering German competitiveness vis à vis the rest.

Marie C. in reply to Pumpernickel_

Keynes was no know-iy-all ("science infuse") in this matter, but exerted his influence as a Established person, and LV only uses references that are serving his agenda

History was written by the victorious of the era, but not taoday after several decades, the nowadays historians have taken some distance with the events.

BTW, I just read something of

as I was on a american blog, where the question arosed why Hitler decleared war on the US, and was Roosevelt awaiting of a event to by pass the American congress and to start a war on Germany and on Japan.

Some Americans were saying that roosevelt let the situation deteriorating with Japn, expecting that Japan would attack (embargo of oil and rough material made it)

the undeclared naval war:

Marie C. in reply to Pumpernickel_

pff snooty German, I remember that your shop closed as much early in your Holly Empire than in Italy (and or France), depends on the little supermarket owner in the corner if he wants to stay open longer
and from saturday noon, you have to wait until monday to fill your fridge, or to buy anything, that's your Germany !
we don't need to get food from Germany (which one?), we product enough choice of it in France and in Italy

Pumpernickel_ in reply to Marie C.

What is written in your Kershaw link is a fair reflection of Bavarian attitudes towards the Nazis and Jews. One should add that Bavarians where the most pro Nazi and anti Jewish population, the nearest to the Austrians, who were virulently anti-Semitic, witness Hitler.
In the Rhineland there was much more resistance to the Nazi ideology, which clashed with the Rhinelanders’ laissez faire attitude. They also were not as anti-Semitic, if at all. Rather more the New Testament induced anti-Semitism as in “the Jews are responsible for the death of our Jesus” sort, not the racial kind, as people in Cologne, Colonia Agrippina, are such a "mixed bag" of races and they know it.


Not a chance Brother. Take that short term windfall from the original standoffish Treaty and enjoy it while you can, but there's unification work to be done here in the form of a legitimate monetary union, and Germany has been selected to assist to create it.

You know the drill. The more work you do, the more work you get. Just one look into Merkel's eyes lately tells me she knows it too. Body language speaks volumes Brother.

Of course the eloquent la vy, can't read the road map. Hell, GPS can't even save la vy from getting lost in the meaningless minutia.

PS - Kudos to the Mrs. Sounds like a wonderful dinner, but when in Rome Pumper, do as the Venetian's do...laughs

Humpty_Dumpty in reply to la.výritý

"The Nazis lost the war"

Actually, a lot of historians agree to that statement.
It was the Nazi-way of thinking that made Germany loose WW2.

Juts compare who Germany treated occupied territories in the East
in WW1 and WW2. Shows quite a difference in attitude.

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

"Keynes theories on economies are one thing, but his analyse of conflicts in potential warfare are fool, biased".

I really don't know what you mean by this! Keynes wasn't a military theorist. He never wrote an "analysis about conflicts in a potential warfare" - at least not to my best knowledge.

My posts dealt with Keynes' economic analysis of the Treaty of Versailles, a strictly macroeconomic matter . . . not with any hypothetical military analyses your distorted mind makes up in order to justify your previous dumbbell-ness.

There exists something called "Military Keynesianism", but this is the flawed theory that Keynes supposedly advocated a economic policy in which the government devotes large amounts of spending to the military in an effort to increase economic growth, which John Maynard Keynes, as a matter of fact, never advocated.

What Keynes instead said is that "government spending be used in the interests of peace and prosperity" instead of "war and destruction". This is also what he wrote 1933 in a letter to Roosevelt. An example of such policies were the "Public Works Administration" in the 1930s in the United States.

It's true that also the Nazi's were using Keynesian economics to boost the Weimar economy after they had taken control over the country. But this was a onesided 'love'. Keynes has 'socialist' tendencies, but had absolutely no sympathy for totalitarianism.

Find me a passage in Keynes' writing where he declares Nazism a valid means to save European civilization! You won't, not even as a temporary "emergency makeshift".

la.výritý in reply to Pumpernickel_

Congratulations on your ‘social vein’, pumper. It’s always heartening to read someone’s siding with the underdog. I do this too – sometimes.

However, I’m also a proponent of a free-market economy. If we like it not, wages are part of the general free-market supply and demand process.

I pointed out on numerous occasions that, according to statistics of the US Department of Labor, Germany’s export industries grant their employees the highest gross wages in the world. These figures are to be trusted because our Labor Department keeps a close eye on trade-surplus countries and their competitiveness, and informs the USITC (United States International Trade Commission) immediately if any violations are detected.

Germany is continuously praised as one of the highest wage countries in this sector in the world. The reason for these high gross wages in Germany is that the export industry employs mostly qualified and high-qualified labor, which is not easily available anymore on Germany’s job market. Many high qualified industrial jobs migrate therefore increasingly to the former East European countries in Germany’s direct vicinity.

This close vicinity to former (low-wage) communist countries is ‘boon and bane’ at the same time: It is on the one hand a convenient extended 'workbench' for German manufacturers, but on the other hand a fierce competitor, especially in the unskilled sector. Unskilled labor i.e. in Poland is still only 30% to 40% of Germany’s; this in spite of the fact the low- or unskilled sector isn’t exactly 'cuddled' in Germany either.

Employers and employees in unskilled segments, especially in Germany’s new territories, have actually no choice than to ‘adjust’, with other words: pricing their labor at a level that their products and services don’t price themselves out of the market.

This is why the country also supports low-wage earners with various levels of public aid (hilfe zur selbsthilfe), so that these labor groups don’t’ fall through the social safety net on the one hand … and stay ‘competitive’ on the job market on the other, since the alternative would be "full unemployment" – as simple as that.

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý


precisely where he was wrong, for the god reasons exposed by the Historians

in 1933, Keynes started to doubt of the rightfulness of his analyse onf the "war reparations"

MilovanDjilas in reply to Pumpernickel_

Hello Pumpy!

I hope everything has gone well with your trip. If being rushed to finish your purchases before 19.30 is the worst of your experiences... well...
On this point, I could answer you that ITALIANS make a habit of finishing their consumerist purchases WITHIN the allotted working hours (Ahem! Not me however - I live on the border, and can go shopping in Slovenia up to 20.30 in many shops or 21.00 at the old Duty-Free shop. BTW, Saturday was a national holiday - so this sounds like a particular situation. In any case, the COOP stores are generally the Left-wing COOPERATIVES - so they are infamous for being the least flexible. Thank you in the meantime for supporting the party: you realise Venice, different from the Veneto REGION is actually a left-wing stronghold, right?
In any case, as I recall, Germans are the ones who are infamous for laying down their tools at 5.29, hitting the bar by 5.32 - and never working a minute of unpaid overtime. In Italy, we almost never punch time-cards - and if the job requires you to stay several hours after to resolve problems, you do so. (Shops and banks are a different story, thanks to the power of their lobbies).

Regarding unemployment: This is an Anglo-American accusation. Hardly anybody in Italy is complaining about our unemployment (although it is rising in a worrying fashion). At 11.7% officially, it is generally held to be at least 1% lower due to Southerners working under the table. On the other hand, we too have very large numbers of mini-jobs and contract work that hardly represent steady employment, as in Germany - so this is a universal problem.
As is the parasitical nature of most civil employees - although I will defend our local bureaucrats in Friuli, at the municipal and provincial levels. The Regional bureaucrats are over-paid, although competent.

Our only real problem in Italy, aside from the absurd downgrades and speculation against our bond markets, regards the acute liquidity crisis in the peninsula (and not only). Much of this is caused by consumer panic and corporate fears - as much cash is apparently being hoarded. I will blame the purported leaders of the Euro-zone (Germany, the Bundesbank and Frau Merkel) for allowing a minor problem in the Balkans to explode into a full-fledged continental crisis.

Nevertheless, apparently the Greek aid package has been approved and disbursed, while the Spanish bank rescue is in the process. So I will not harp on this point.

You seem to have enjoyed yourself in these days, no? Have you chatted with any Venetians about the crisis? What have they told you?

Shop hours is a particular issue. We voted on a referendum 15 years ago, aimed at allowing local Regions (Laender) the option of liberalising shop hours. The referendum was defeated (I voted in favour of liberalisation). Liberalising shop hours in Italy is associated with:
1) favouring the opening of American, German and British-owned shopping centres against our local shops, thus bringing the profits outside of Italy;
2) abandoning our traditional disciplined spending habits;

3) being against the interests of working families.

Local shops also typically provide a social service, as they are frequently delivering their wares to the old people and semi-infirm. Services which are only provided for a charge from chain stores, if at all.
You may have noticed within the Coop the ads for "social loans" (prestiti sociali); their registered members, in addition to receiving discounts on many items (perhaps you did not notice that certain discounts you thought you had from the shelf were not applied at the cash register - most are only for members) may also take advantage of low-cost loans, so that the supermarket also functions as a credit union.

This is the website of my Workers' Cooperative supermarket in Friuli:

Here is the Document of Values:

The European Union, the central government, the Regions, local administrations find in the Cooperative a willingness to collaborate to protect consumers, and in the respect of constitutional rights guaranteeing cooperative ventures."

"The founding fathers of Consumer Cooperation have handed down to today the ideals, values and principles upon which cooperatives throughout the world and in every sector have been founded. The Italian Cooperative movement, founded in the second half of the 1800's, then persecuted and destroyed by Fascism and later re-born from popular will after Liberation, supports these principles."

My local Coop is currently selling copies of the Italian Constitution of 1946 for a few cents - and encouraging shoppers to read it.

When we organise our county fairs to support local party financing, the Coop sells much of the food we use (meats, fries, polenta, pasta) at large discounts - and then gifts to us many items (frequently unsold in the shops) for the bingo-raffle every evening.

MilovanDjilas in reply to Pumpernickel_


Here is the Cooperative link with information about the "social loan":

Once again, thank you for your making your contribution to the party and the battle against Silvio Berlusconi - and just before election time!

By the way, the Italian Cooperative movement was very developed and very active abroad already in the 1800's. (In 1920-1921, the movement organised convoys of trains to help feed starving Russians during the revolution - even as they were accepting contracts to build infrastructure in South America.)
However, my Coop in Friuli was actually founded in 1903 under Austria, together with the Union of Austrian Cooperative Societies.

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

Kidding aside, Keynes never distanced himself from his Treaty assessment. In fact, "when he commented on Germany's situation 1927, with reference to Germany's mounting foreign debt problems, which had resorted to paying the reparations with credit, he saw his most grave concerns surpassed" (Ritschl, 2002).

However, later, before his death 21 April 1946, he was criticizing the monetary policies then being developed by some of his most prominent disciples. "They are just fools", Keynes reportedly insisted. "You know, my ideas were frightfully important in the 1930s [to Hayek]. . . But you can trust me, Hayek, my ideas have become dated". Six weeks later, Keynes was dead.

Marie C.

"US Treasury Eyes Germany for Antidumping?

Who would have thought it?

China long held up as the most prominent example of unfair trade practices by US firms and politicians – now used as an example of how others should behave?

What am I talking about? The US Treasury has issued a damning criticism of Germany’s chronic trade surplus in its annual report on worldwide exchange rate abuse. We should note, the US has not labeled the country a currency manipulator. The Treasury has told Congress that internal balances within the Euro-zone have disrupted the global trade structure, with almost nothing done by northern European states to curb their huge surpluses.

Not exactly anti dumping…

While imposing severe austerity on southern states in return for the promise of financial support, northern states have failed to stimulate any growth. Indeed they have perpetuated a situation in which Germany’s current account surplus runs at 6.3% of GDP. Holland’s runs even worse at 9.5%. In an article appearing in Business Matters magazine, the Treasury said despite repeated pledges by EU leaders that more must be done to foster growth, “They have not yet made any concrete proposals capable of yielding meaningful near-term results.”

Permanent trade surplus?

Apparently Germany’s permanent surplus stands in stark contrast to the shift under way in Asia. China, long the pariah, has made some progress according to the article, “partially succeeded in shifting away from a reliance on exports for growth”, and has slashed its surplus from 10.1% in 2007 to 2.6% today. Observing that while the yuan remains “significantly overvalued”, China has stopped building reserves to hold down it’s currency. It has seen a 40% appreciation against the dollar since 2005 in real terms. Double-digit wage growth has closed the currency gap by other means and has resulted in stimulating a considerable increase in domestic consumption. The report says that Germany has overtaken China to become the biggest single source of global trade imbalance, alone accounting for a large chunk of the US deficit.

Nor are Germany’s trade practices solely of concern in the US. George Soros has called for Germany to “lead or leave the euro”, identifying the country’s surpluses as part of the euro-zone crisis. Mr Soros argued that the euro-zone should target 5% economic growth. That would require the bloc to abandon German-backed austerity measures and accept higher inflation than the ECB’s 2% target. Germany’s central bank would certainly oppose Mr. Soros’ 5% economic growth target. For the region’s wealth to grow so strongly, prices and wages would also rise sharply leading to inflation above the ECB’s target. But Mr. Soros said the strong expansion in European wealth would allow the euro-zone “to grow its way out of its excessive debt burden.” The alternative would create a two tier Europe of creditor northern states and indebted southern states which would eventually tear the euro apart.

We doubt Germany will take any steps to curb its export surpluses. After all, falling manufacturing confidence and allowing GDP growth hardly form a recipe for politicians to take steps to curb export sales. On the contrary, expect more of the same from Germany and its northern neighbors."

that's coming... the US ire, hehe !

SinnFrei in reply to Marie C.

"that's coming... the US ire, hehe !"

Standards & Poor's / Moodys anyone...
What's France current rating/ outlook ? Negative, I presume.

The US ire, it's coming ..... har har har !!!!!!

Marie C. in reply to SinnFrei

"ondon, 23 July 2012 -- Moody's Investors Service has today revised to negative from stable the outlooks on the Aaa sovereign ratings of Germany, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. In addition, Moody's has also affirmed Finland's Aaa rating and stable outlook."

comming soon, cuz, not only Deutschebank is hiding such a bad score

emmafinney in reply to SinnFrei

"The US ire, it's coming ..... har har har !!!!!!"

You really don't want to annoy the USA.

During the heyday of the Roman empire, the outlying provinces made a great effort to be in the good graces of the Romans for their own good.

Germans will be wise remember that.

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

Mr Soros, the world's most devious investor, his victims call him crook, who made billions by betting against the well being of nations, e.g. against the GBP in 1992. Soros was also cited as the "trigger" behind the Asian financial crisis in 1997, as he had a large bet against the Thai Baht.

In early 2010 Soros took part the so called "idea dinners" which were organized at a private townhouse by a boutique investment bank. Present was Soros' Fund Management LLC. and some other heavyweight hedge funds who had jointly launched large bearish bets against the euro in order to break the common currency with moves that were reminiscent of the toxic derivative trading action at the height of the U.S. financial crisis in 2007. We know that Soros lost quite a chunk of money on these bets against the euro.

If any of you really thinks that Soros has the euro's 'best interest' in mind when he spreads his well-led "good advices" around the net, then you guys are as dumb as they come.

5% inflation will trigger a 10 percent price-hike in the periphery, which again triggers more inflation . . . which again triggers price hikes, also the price of labor . . . and then - the deadly inflationary spiral has began, unstoppable in weak an economic environments.

This way Soros won his bet, without even investing 10 billion, as he still had to do when betting against pound.

Even a super crook of Soros' caliber doesn't have the cash to manipulate a currency like the Euro . . . without the help of the currency itself.

But I'm pretty sure, you guys will come to his support! LOL

la.výritý in reply to Marie C.

No wonder ... with more than a trillion Euros - and growing - of peripheral liabilities hanging over Germany's head.

If Germany leaves, the euro is dead (and Soros has won), if Germany stays and takes on more peripheral liabilities it will lose its creditability ... and the euro its only creditworthy backer (and Soros has won also).

So, the best is stay in the Euro, Germany, and don't expand your peripheral liabilities . . . if you don't want that Soros wins.

Marie C. in reply to la.výritý

Germany will leave the euro when it will break down, and it will from next year, so better getting in use of this reality !

cuz if she wants that the euro stay alive, she'll have to accept a transfer union, but as the French aren't ready to give up their sovereignity, then the whole thing will go kaput, I'm glad that Hollande is taking some distance (and adopt the attitude wait and see) from the austerity program requested by germany


A very instructive article:

The Perils of Ignoring History

"The European Union was created to avoid repeating the disasters of the 1930s, but Germany, of all countries, has failed to learn from history. As the euro crisis escalates, Berlin should remember how the banking crisis of 1931 contributed to the breakdown of democracy across Europe. Action is urgently needed to stop history from repeating itself."

"Fixated on the non-threat of inflation, today's Germans appear to attach more importance to the year 1923 (the year of hyperinflation) than to the year 1933 (the year democracy died).

They would do well to remember how a European banking crisis two years before 1933 contributed directly to the breakdown of democracy not just in their own country but right across the European continent."

Don't worry Sigfried's Follies. Look at the bright side. You'll be building a better Greece.

Besides, the patient is on life support. Greece will be long dead before you Germans actually have to put your hands in your pockets.

Tell the truth now, your wives put mouse traps in them to keep you from spending too much money.

A generation from now, your daughters and granddaughters will drop the kids off at day care before they go to work in the morning, just like Americans. 12 weeks maternity leave, no more.

What to do, what to do? Perhaps you'll do what the Greeks do. Extended family will become more important. They'll drop the grandchildren off with you then.

So, Germany's on the way down. Greece has got no where to go but up. Meet you in the middle there Sigfried!

Faster, faster, down the ladder! Boy you Germans are slow to give up an unearned advantage...laughs

crammerboy in reply to FranciscoLebre

Good link, Francisco. Not surprising that the Germans have only ever won one Nobel prize for economics ( US 49, UK 8) when you consider the numbskulls who are running the German government. Do they know that Europe is practically the only part of the world where there is no growth, no improvement in the standard of living, a declining percentage of world trade and a recession that is set to continue?

Germany is a rogue state, a currency manipulator, a nation of mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed on BS.

la.výritý in reply to crammerboy

Germany is the only country in the Western world which actually can pay for every imported product and service with it own products. All those Nobel prize fiddlers suggest to use printed toilet paper to boost consumption, since 'goods'? .... they don't produce.

What does this tell us about the worthiness of this self-appointing economic Nobel night club? LOL

SinnFrei in reply to crammerboy

"Germany is a rogue state, a currency manipulator, a nation of mushrooms, ..."

Pure envy, just rest assured that you will not get the Nobel prize for economics anyway ...

"is practically the only part of the world where there is no growth, no improvement in the standard of living,..."

Ah, I guess the US is right now the paragon of growth ....

So obvious, juts wonder who is the BSh'tter here.....


Upon request (better PR for German tough love):
Let's sing along.....
Dashing through Athens
In an open tank
O'er the streets we go
Laughing all the way
Bells on bob tails ring
Making spirits bright
What fun it is to laugh and sing
A slaying song tonight
Oh, jingle bells, jingle bells
Austerity all the way
Oh, what fun it is to ride
In an open tank
Jingle bells, jingle bells
Austerity all the way
Oh, what fun it is to ride
In an open tank .....
Ho, Ho, Ho, it is Christmas time. Mother Merkel and her merry bunch of Eurocrats are coming to town. Ho, Ho, Ho...

Karoshi888 in reply to SinnFrei



I usually like your lyrics, but no more Gluehwein today, please.

Why? Santa Claus, an ethnic Greek from Myra just called quite agitated and threatened join the union, to strike and to cancel Christmas if he hears one more verse.

Can't let that happen, think of the innocent bystanders.

Then again, the world ends anyway on December 14, so what the heck...

SinnFrei in reply to SinnFrei

And on we sing ...
A day or two ago
I thought I'd take a ride
And soon Miss Merkel
Was seated by my side
The Greek was lean and lank
Misfortune seemed his lot
We got into a drifted bank
And then the Greek got shot
Oh, jingle bells, jingle bells
Austerity all the way
Oh, what fun it is to ride
In an open tank
Jingle bells, jingle bells
Austerity all the way
Oh, what fun it is to ride
In an open tank yeah …..
Ho, Ho, Ho, it is Christmas time. Father Erdogan comes to town once he wins the e-bay auction. There is a good chance he wins, bid is still at €1. Ho, Ho, Ho.... it is Christmas time. But not for everyone.:)

Seinfeld come back! And bring Hates the Germans with you. I didn't mean it! The place hasn't been same without you both here for me to ridicule. Truth be told, I have a lot of jokes to tell, and I need an unsuspecting German to spring them on...laughs

I know, I know, I tease a little rough. La vy has to admitted to a Sanatorium when last we spoke. Be gentle with him, he's a sensitive German loving boy you know...laughs


Each country’s leadership aspire success for its citizens but some fail for various unspecified reasons. Greeks have failed and few are close to the cliff as well, including the USA.

The Greek’s or any other country’s EU membership is voluntary, anybody is free to leave. If you do not like your club you are free to leave. I am not even surprise at UK sitting on the fence and opportunistically procrastinate...the problem is that they do not see on the outside EU greener do not blame the Greeks for delaying the anticipated final curtain.

There are few options available to the policy makers...the spending contraction is causing misery and stagnant growth – in retrospect it did not solve anything; on the other hand managed inflation (QE) that is much more suitable route out of the present EZ fiscal predicament hit the resistance of some well to do members for unsubstantiated fear of inflation – a caveat of the EZ collective infrastructure. However, in all likelihood is solvable.


What is most ironic is that the EU which was supposed to integrate European countries has suceeded in reviving the ghosts of separatism- Belgium is almost on the verge of divorce, Catalonia has a strong secessionist movement. Scotland may want a looser union with the UK.

Even more ironic is that the EU which was supposed to keep the peace in Europe was utterly useless when conflicts broke out in Europe.

The EU propaganda machine has erased from public memory that the two conflicts on European soil - Balkans war 1990's and Northern Ireland troubles were resolved by American power & influence.

Tizian in reply to emmafinney

““We hope you will continue to post comments to The Economist online, and would encourage you to repost the sentiments below, if you feel they are still relevant to the discussion.

Yours sincerely,
Comments Moderator
The Economist Online

Your comment:””

Emmafinney: “Pumpernickel is an idiot or as Maher described him so well "impenetrable stupidity".

Believe me there is no bigger idiot on these pages than you emmafinney! And I only read your one short post.


Sigh... Sad to read some of the posts which put words "Nazis fanatics" into other people's mouth...

It is never the case...

Time to take your medicines because you are letting your personal vendetta blinding your sight...

I’m game. But first we need to re-educate the French lasses to do it in the old fashioned way, the Missionary way, as otherwise even our master sperm cannot do the trick.

Safely arrived in my favourite city last night, Joe. First thing this morning went to the bakery to buy some croissant and …
Now the bad news: was short changed! Now the good news: the lady guilty of it was … wait for it … Germanz!!!

Honest misunderstanding and got one croissant extra in compensation. What a great city. The sun is out and all!
Viva la bella Italia!

Karoshi888 in reply to Pumpernickel_


I noticed that you are quite a "Schöngeist".

You should follow in Heinrich Heine's footsteps and transform your trip to Italy into a commercial success by publishing your adventures under the title "Italien, ein Wintermärchen". (Italy, a winter fairytale).

Discerned readers will appreciate it, I certainly do.

Rivierarocket in reply to Pumpernickel_

Since this was Italy did you get a receipt for your purchase? I was down in Sorrento end of August and at the hotel they wanted me to pay in cash. I love Italy though! Naples family run restaurant on the backstreets Pizza Marguerita 3€ King size. Dinner for two with two beers, two pizzas and a Tiramisu. - 17€ Rome was a different story.

Marie C. in reply to Pumpernickel_


and don't forget to keep your socks on for your german way

since most of the Basque ADN is floading French and Brit ADN

Rivierarocket in reply to Marie Clear

"Par ailleurs, si dans l’ensemble de ces pays 44% des hommes et des femmes
interrogés se sont déclarés satisfaits de leur vie sexuelle, en France ils
sont seulement 25%, soit avant-derniers devant les Japonais (15%)."

"Les Français sont parmi les plus rapides (15 minutes), devant les Indiens,
derniers avec 13,2 minutes."

Sorry Marie (Oh now you are just Marie C! Let me guess what the "C" stands
for) but it sounds like the Frenchmen are quick squirters to me.

Maybe as Pumpernickel said you may one day have the experience of the master
sperm to get you thru the 20 minute barrier. If it's 15 minute sex in France
"on est jamais aussi bien servi que par soi même" What the point spending so
much effort for 15 minutes. I guess it's a French thing.

Rivierarocket in reply to Marie C.

Your comment:
Not a surprising comment coming from a French individual with a low tolerance
for pressure and criticism. God forbid one should ask a French person to work
one minute longer per day. There must be 26 laws on the books to prevent this
kind of abuse. What others consider constructive criticism the French
consider to be harassment. Most simple repetitive tasks are too difficult for
the French to do. We have a training center nearby and many trainees go
outside to smoke. Of course at the beginning nobody thought to put something
outside where they could put their cigarette butts. No they can't think that
far ahead. So finally they put a large standup ashtray and a couple people
used it. Even though they put up a sign to properly dispose of their
cigarette butts most people still threw them on the sidewalk. Now the owners
of the center have given up completely (Duh Hello!) and all of the cigarette
butts go on the sidewalk. The owners of the training center have given up
trying (Duh...Hello!). One word....USELESS

Rivierarocket in reply to Marie C.

I found in the past that French women like Neanderthals. At least with
Neanderthals sex lasts more than the 15 minutes French women are obliged to
undergo with their pouty girly mouthed French male partners.


“Much of the blame must lie with Greece’s politicians.”

>>> This is an outdated news for a very long time already.

“But the euro zone has also made mistakes, including a failure to recognise that Greece was bust. Europe’s creditors must now confront the question: how much of Greece’s official debt needs to be written off?”

>>> First suggestion, a huge percentage or total write-off on the debt must be done as austerity measures are not apply appropriately on the CORRECT SEGMENT in the country and society and are simply losing their effects as each day passes by due to the decision makers and their connections dragging their feet in a genuine effort to seriously implement effective measures including having an effective tax system, going after Greeks who have been evading their duties to pay their overdue taxes etc. But the total write-off is definitely too big a bitter pill for the creditors to swallow and stomach it…

>>> Second suggestion, becoming part of a Federal system/ state/ special autonomy area in the E.U. in order for a real and feasible future reality of Greece getting itself out of its present abyss/ quagmire, since democracy in the country has ceased to exist and function long before anyone’s knowledge, the political system in Greece is simply a ‘walking corpse’ and most importantly, the Greeks are the BIGGEST LOSERs in whichever political parties (new and existing ones) and politicians they cast their votes for. In essence, their votes and voting rights are no longer sacred as the whole political and voting system has in effect, collapses - lost its trust, credibility and integrity.

>>> Third/final suggestion, it is down to the Greeks to table a referendum to compare between whether it is best for them and their future generations to stick to the existing political and voting system (‘walking corpse’) or a Federal system/ state/ special autonomy area in the E.U., which will be administered by the E.U. parliament/commission (instead of Greece’s ‘walking corpse’ parliament/political parties/politicians) to nurse Greece’s economy and its citizens’ lives back to health in the foreseeable future. Greeks will continue to exercise their voting rights and votes in a Federal system, which will be administered by the E.U. parliament/commission instead of the existing Greece’s political and voting system (‘walking corpse’).

>>> Ultimately, the decision on the three suggestions above, especially the second and third suggestions, are for the Greeks to mull not only on their present situation but also on the future of the generations to come. Or Greeks can continue to live in delusion in the existing Greece’s political and voting system (‘walking corpse’). Bear in mind the decision is the Greeks to make.

“Ms Lagarde made plain that, unless Greece’s debt was cut back, the IMF would lend no more money.”

>>> Well, the previous visits by the IMF M.I.B. to Greece must have rendered them shock beyond words in their exposure to the full magnitude in their audits and what the M.I.B, initially thought would be 'within their expectations’ and 'manageable' in their abilities in addition to the countless of fruitless dialogues with the Greek political staff. So naturally the kind of reaction and expression from Ms Lagarde is to be expected in the issue of giving money to Greece (in future) from IMF coffer.

la.výritý in reply to BlueVelvet

Since a "special autonomy area in the E.U., administered by the E.U. parliament/commission" for Greece would need, first of all, the majority consent of the Greek people, then, secondly, an application toward the EU filed by a legally elected Greek government/leadership with the request to be administered autocratically (not democratically) by EU proxies and thirdly the EU must accept such unusual procedure for a single country (who wants to do this), your suggestions sound quite utopistic to me.

BlueVelvet in reply to la.výritý

The Representatives should be a group of respectable (an uphill task to get the respectable ones but the Greeks...) Greeks from the public to canvass for the Greeks' supports so that this application can be send to the E.U. instead of from "a legally elected Greek government/leadership..." , which has failed in its governance (from different political parties and politicians) of Greece over the years.

"the request to be administered autocratically (not democratically) by EU proxies".

>>> Ask yourself this question: has Greece been governed democratically to land itself into an economic quandmire hopelessly?


>>> You must remember it was also an unusual and utopistic idea from a few visionary and founding leaders on the initial creation of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC then EEC), which further developed and enlarged/ grew from strength-to-strength (although dangerously and recklessly) to become the European Union (E.U) that we know today. It was the strong belief, motivation and undaunting efforts from these visionary leaders that made it possible for the ECSC to become the E.U. in its present days. Since Greece is an E.U. member, it is not an unusual procedure for the E.U Parliament and Commission to mull over the proposal to place Greece as a special autonomy area. The ball is in the Greeks' court.

la.výritý in reply to BlueVelvet

BlueVelvet: "The ball is in the Greeks' court"

In which way? Like this?

(quote): "The tax declarations of almost 2,000 Greeks with accounts at the Geneva branch of HSBC, a bank, are being scrutinised by officials at SDOE, the financial police. Their names were on a computer disk sent in 2010 by Christine Lagarde, then French finance minister, to her Greek counterpart, George Papaconstantinou . . . Critics say there has been foot-dragging over investigations of politicians, footballers, prominent lawyers and doctors suspected of tax evasion. SDOE officials complain they are overloaded with new cases. Greece has still not convicted any prominent tax evaders, despite promising international creditors that the worst offenders would go to jail. The government is about to name a special secretary for tax affairs, in line with a request from officials from the European Commission, the IMF and the European Central Bank who are supervising economic reforms" (end-quote).

Donald McIntyre Denver

A substantial haircut as fast as possible is the best path given that economic agents act faster when they have visibility of the future. It is better to take a loss and move on than to drag the situation for years without a clear scenario, but with the feeling that no money was lost.

The resistance to losing money seems to be an extension of Europe's philosophy that life is without instability therefore creating the welfare nation which has been the European problem in the first place.

Regarding setting an example that austerity is needed to deter other broke countries to default and haircut their debts is a fallacy: If one country restructured w a haircut, that does not mean that other countries warrant a restructuring. In this situation each country must be analyzed on a case by case basis.

The incentives for countries is to pay in full and not to restructure as it enhances its reputation.

In corporate life this has been shown in Ford's not accepting a government bailout. Today the company boasts better reputation than the others in terms of creditors, customers, business partners , and international markets like China.


Charlemagne gets his facts pretty mixed up. IMF under Ms. Lagarde insisted on GR reaching the debt goal of 120% in 2020, instead of 2022.It is pretty hard to see any "easing of the burden" GR has to take. Furthermore he fails to see the main coup in this farce: GR debts, originally mostly given by greek and foreign insurance companies and banks are now written in on the ledgers of the other Euro-states.
The main problem of GR is far from discussing how to reduce the state debt and keep GR in the Euro. It is the more profound problem of how to maintain a state structure without the basic means, any industry worth to mention and a level of public living that only decades of accumulating debts and EU help could pay for. Even if GR lenders would hand over all the bills for free it would not keep GR out of debt in the following years.

the maverick

Germany has been a major reason for exacerbating the Euro crisis. Without the IMF counterbalancing Germany's misguided insistence on austerity, the situation would have been even worse. Now they are resisting taking losses on Greek debt. The longer Germany ignores reality, the more Europe and the global economy will suffer.

hysteria in reply to the maverick

You are correct in a way. Had Germany not originally provided bail out funds to Greece, it would have forced a Greece default and exit from the Euro. A very fast, but very painful move (for everyone) that would have shortened the Euro crisis.

But can you really blame Germany for wanting to get paid back by a country that fails to see the writing on the wall and take the drastic measures necessary in their domestic budget? It's akin to being forced to loan money to your neighbor to pay for his Mercedes, only to have your neighbor keep the money and the car.

Birtnick in reply to hysteria


Yes it is: a predicament caused by both parties saddling themselves with a zombie currency created by an ideologically insane organisation in Brussels.

the maverick in reply to hysteria

It is natural to sympathize with German taxpayers, but fact is, debts frequently go bad (just ask investors in US sub-prime) and that's just part of the reality of being a creditor. Germany has made the crisis worse by dragging its feet: neither acting decisively to force Greece out of the Eurozone nor taking losses on Greek debt that would allow the country to start fresh.

SinnFrei in reply to the maverick

One question - why did Ireland not get a haircut with the same level of reforms? And they did cope with it. No burning of flags there.

What's so special about Greece that it always wants an extra? ... and never deliver on their promises. Same rules for everyone. No further haircut for Greece. Let'em suffer until they really start to deliver.... not just empty promises.

SinnFrei in reply to hysteria


You rightly name the original sin. And the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Greece needs to leave the Eurozone. But they need to do it on their own. If not, they will suffer for years to come.

There were no good intentions. American held a gun to Germany's head. The gun is back, soon it will be time for another haircut.

What do you think? Germany and Greece actually have control over such an important matter as unification. Yeah right. I have some swamp land to sell in Florida as well.

Do yourself a favor. Give up voting. Who ever gets elected, the result will be the same. TRANSFER UNION!!! Merkel could only delay, because it was the best she is allowed to do for Germany.

There is a price to pay for losing the war SinnFrei. Germany's still paying it, but if it makes you feel better, shake your head in disgust, like a disappointed parent, and open up the check book...laughs

Marie Clear in reply to SinnFrei

if Greece leaved the EZ today, you can say good bye to the euro and to the german surpluses, as you'll have to refinance your banks and that the new DM would make difficult for the german cars and tool machines being sold at a cheap price
Ireland is no way like Greece, she benefitted (and still does) of a favorable taxes heaven place for attracting world wide enterprises

Hello Zorbas!
It's the natural progression of things. Italia has been there and done that already, Greece too. Fighters become lovers and live to fight another day. Over something important though, like a traffic jam. Then You'll see what fighters Italians and Greeks are Emma. We're hot blooded by our nature you know. The knives come out of the eyes, but we seldom if ever comes to blows. It's a form of therapy. Pay someone to listen to my problems? HA!!! I'll take it on the guy in the car in front of me...laughs"
Just saw your comment from another blog- loved it. Particularly the part about "knives coming out of the eyes, but we seldom if ever come to blows".
I wanted to ask you if you are familiar with the Renaissance engraving by Antonio Pollaiolo "Battle of the Ten Naked Men": it expresses exactly your idea - at first glance, a scene of unmitigated violence and war - until one looks closer, and notices the perfect balance and the absence of any blood. A political metaphor which I am sure any Greek understands perfectly.

the maverick in reply to SinnFrei

Greece is already suffering pretty badly, but that's not the point. Germany is prolonging the suffering of the Greeks and the rest of Europe by acting so indecisively. Greece is insolvent. The sooner Germany accepts this fact the better for everyone.

"There is a price to pay for losing the war ..."

Zorbie (or Zombie), don't wet yourself too much while having a hard-on thinking of US power. That's waning. The writing is on the wall. Obama is your Belshazzar.

Was it not Geithner who clearly knows how a German middle finger looks like....


I like you interpretation Milovan. I never viewed the piece before, but had I, I probably would not have come to the same conclusion on my own. They are enacting violence, but yet, their faces do not show it.

Yes, it is indeed a cultural observation. Greeks and Italians seldom come to blows. If and when they do however, it more often then not involves a death blow, due to a long simmering vendetta, and/or an issue of honor.

Greeks find it comical when Americans square off and box each other after having too much to drink. Drink must always be served with food.

You see HanzChristianDemocrat, now you are to be schooled in the Illusion of Political Choice, otherwise known as the two party system. Nations do not rule. Money does, through America and Great Britain. Why? Simply becasue we won the war, and we reserved that right for ourselves.

You need further proof? Germany was saddled with the unification of Europe project. To the victor goes their own currency that they can devalue. To the loser goes the hard work.

Now, be a good German and run away silently when faced with the unpleasant truth. After all, denial serves a much needed survival purpose, don't it? And Zorbas knows you better then you know yourself...laughs

Nixon opened up China. If your jealous German wishes were farts, I would need a gas mask to read you.

Time for you Germans stepped up to the plate and carry their fair share of the global load already. You got enough social welfare programs over there to choke off the money flow to the whole of periphery of Europe.

Yeah, you think it's your little secret right? News flash Seinfeld, Germany's obstructionist monetary policy secret is out. Merkel's voodoo economics stall tactic for the periphery nations has been thoroughly discredited by the Markets.

Let the haircuts begin, and the German cradle to grave social welfare programs melt away, like a late April snow. Soon they'll be coming for you pension too. Back to work you lazy early retirement Euro trash bums...laughs

Rivierarocket in reply to the maverick

Yes you can ask those who bought real estate that was way over their head thinking that prices would eternally increase. It's a bubble and bubbles will one day burst It's like death. You can't avoid it no matter how hard you try. A second mortgage to buy that 4X4. Why not? It's Caveat Emptor and these people who indebted themselves (not the ones who lost their jobs) only have themselves to blame. Look at the savings rate for the US over the last years and you will see it was negative till around 2010. Always have enough saved to get you through at least 12 months.

la.výritý in reply to the maverick


"... counterbalancing Germany's misguided insistence on austerity" ? BS!

Now since French Lagarde is at helm of the IMF she (and her predecessor, another Frenchie) guaranteed that French banks had enough time to lead the exodus of their banks from the hardest-hit European economies - Only now, after this was done, Lagarde started talking about 'haircuts' by public lenders; of course, her demands don't include the IMF itself. She would be 'fired' by the IMF's US-partaker if she suggested that. LOL.

Instead, Lagarde wants that E.U. taxpayers of the still solvent North to assume the liabilities of the Greek pension offices, which are still holding a huge chunk of Greece's sovereign debt (as they weren't included in the big March-2012 write-down of private lenders).

Lagarde's demand is in order to reduce Greece's default risk toward the IMF . . . not 'to help' the Greek people.

Just look at the ruthless procedures the IMF performs against countries when the fund is the only bailout provider. LOL. Greece's current 'austerity' is a 'walk in the park' compared to this.

Correctly, one commentator wrote on another thread (Greek Taxation: Doubts over competence), quote: "Common sense would suggest that a bankrupt entity (whether a state or a company) is supposed to surrender all powers of fact findings, investigation and repatriation of capital to the authority in charge of its financial rescue. In the case of Greece, were the rescue operated solely by the IMF and under its standard procedure, the cooperation of Greek authorities would be more forthcoming; not so under the EU regime, (which is) much too attached to the preservation of national sovereignty" (end quote).


Bottom line is (no one dares to admit it), Greece did suck for the past 200 years, Greece sucks right now and Greece will suck for the next 2000 + x years.

Why not sell it (+ 50% of Cyprus) to the highest bidder on eBay?
Starting at €1. Now thats a way forward. Will Turkey win...

SinnFrei in reply to Marie Clear

"Do you think that Bloomberg would have edited his article if it wasn't based on facts?"

You really deserve an award - biggest loony ever....

Uh it's Bloomberg, therefore it must be true ....

emmafinney in reply to SinnFrei

Your arrogance is astonishing coming from a country that put Europe thorough hell just a few decades ago.
No wonder Geman flags are being burned in the streets of Athens and anti-German sentiments have gone through the roof in Greece.
After WW2, with marshall plan money and military aid flowing into Greece to combat communist rebels, American civilian & military advisors had much more direct say in the affairs of Greece, yet this never provoked a blacklash like what we see in the streets of Greece directed against Germany.
Learn from your betters.

Anjin-San in reply to SinnFrei

"Greece did suck for the past 200 years”
Considering that Modern Greece did not exist until 1823 (when it became independent from the Ottoman Empire), that would be a feat indeed!

Just read your comments and Hates the Germans as well SinnFrei. You know, come to think of it being a German Nationalist and being an a$$hole are not mutually exclusive groups either.

Now, your assignment for today Boys, draw us all a Venn diagram. One circle will be SinnFrei, and the other Hates the Germans, the third will shall call a$$holes.

Show us all how the three circles intersect here on TE. Let me guess, East Germans right...laughs


Hear this pearl of a Greek Myth from German poster Pumpernickel -

"In the times of a Kohl/Mitterand, Schmidt/Giscard d’Estaing, Schröder/Chirac a crisis like the present would have been a non event. The “markets” would not have dared to attack the weaker Euro members. The City would have been nuked on day one. "


He is living the same half-baked contradiction of the €-currency itself, which he advocates in that he must believe such a currency can exist for such disparate EZ economies before a fiscal, banking and political union, which he must know has not a snowball's chance in hell of coming into being.

Yet he blames the City of London by jumping on the economic illiterate Noyer's (a German mouthpiece anyway) bandwagon in search of a scapegoat for your own lunacy ... never mind that French and German economies converge like oil and water or that he chooses to insult the Italians for waking up.

Great stuff for European harmony, your "EU", eh?

free wheelie

There are other ways of speaking truth, such as letting financial markets play the game again, even by the most damned and wicked investors.
The hastily arranged Greek debt buyback was a case in point, with officials willing to meet investors' demand for a higher bid rather than letting the operation end in failure.
Hedge funds were known to be active players of late and officials' instinctive reaction to rate them as vultures could be expected even as bond prices were bid up this time, if only because most of them bought at very distressed prices. These "evil speculators" actually bet that Greece will not be let die. The rationale behind the agreement vindicates them.
A market-driven way to pare debt may not be perfect but is preferable to any fiddling with numbers from on high.


Having read the comments so far, I would like to share some thoughts provoked by a European who works in Southeast Asia, but visits Europe on and off.
My point is that with all our differences, we in Europe still share the European way of thinking, which is also the foundation of the dominant culture in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand etc.
The foundation, of course, is the ideal of democracy and a fair judicial system, the values of the Old and New Testaments etc. But it is also the way we express our feelings, our sense of humour, our music, our art, our cuisine.
Flying in to Europe, a European realizes that it is his home as soon as he steps off the plane at the first hub airport.
In a world changing with warp speed, we should remember how special it is to be a European, no matter what divides us.
I live in Greece, and the Greeks are painfully aware of the fact that they have made a mess of things. So far, they have also been pretty stoic about the pain they must endure. The worst is still to come, and no one can guarantee the results. We hope to come out of this calamity more European than before, and free of some of the myths that kept us from seeing the truth.

SET Sail in reply to guest-isiwjew

sure enough, a European comparing Europe with other continents and countries is compelled to find some flavour of "Europea-nism". The same will do some Texan when traveling to Europe and thinking about his fellow countrymen in NJ.

the point however is different: Merkel will always (rightly) favour his German interests vs the other countrys', and same will do the other PMs. So now you have this "belt tightening" narrative, that does little in Germany but slams the quality of life in EU periphery countries, From. Ireland to Greece.

Until EU becomes one country, not a chance

emmafinney in reply to SET Sail

Absurd comparison.

The USA is one country, Europe is a continent which has many countries.

Texas is part of a country called the USA just like Bavaria is part of a country callled Germany.

Stop comparing apples to oranges. I know the EU elites love to absurdly compare the the USA to Europe but no need to blindly parrot them.

massel tov in reply to emmafinney

texas is a state. read the constitution.
bavaria is a state. read the basic law (grundgesetz).
texas is member of the union (u.s. of a.).
bavaria is member of the federation (frg = federal rebublic of
germany). basic knowledge.
you're nitwit.

SinnFrei in reply to emmafinney

EmmaDummy, at least start to read other posts properly before going on a rant.

Anyway, we do not expect anything else from you. As stated by another poster - You're a total n*tw*t...............

flyingdutch100 in reply to guest-isiwjew

After having had my own fair share of living outside the borders of my mini-country, I have to disagree with you. There is no such thing as European mentality and no such thing as European culture. As Dutch person, I feel at home in Germany, Britain, Australia and some parts of the US. Never been in New Zeeland so I cannot comment on this.
But I feel completely alien to Italians, Spanish (be they in Costa Rica or Spain).
Some parts of Argentina are closer to our "culture" than Malaga or Milan. I meet Turkish people who are closer to our sense of value than many Greeks. Europe is a geographical entity and will never be more than that, no matter how much the Brussels dictators try to brain-wash us about the contrary.

Rivierarocket in reply to guest-isiwjew

"We hope to come out of this calamity more European than before..."

Do you mean by that with more free money from the EZ. You can never pay back that debt no matter how much you cut. You have no industry. Start by paying your taxes and give receipts to customers.

guest-isiwjew in reply to Rivierarocket

That's exactly what I mean, paying taxes, getting receipts without asking and much more. If we don't do these things, all the money in Europe will not save Greece. It's up to the Greeks, to become more European or deteriorate into a society of brutality, inequality and justice only for the priviledged few.


As an honest, working citizen, I'm deeply angry at what has happened here.
And I'm appalled that none of the uncomfortable questions have been raised in the press.

"The rubicon has been crossed".
Yes, now it's been made clear and official that cheating, cooking the books and taking money (=robbing) from tax payers from other Countries without fully repaying it is OK.

Who cooked the books? Who are the politicians that allowed this? Who was supposed to check Countries' books prior to their joining the EU?
That's right, we don't know that...

Multi-Moniker Psycho Mod

Let the transfer union begin! So, the reader's suppose to believe it's the IMF against Germany now, eh? That it somehow backfired to involve the IMF?

Blinkered BS. Short term capital was captured is all. Now it's time for the Federal style system to be implemented, which will take time.

Why? becasue there is no other way of creating a monetary union. Shouldn't have let everyone in to begin with. Should have held membership out like a carrot, and kept saying not yet, keep up the good work though.

They let everybody in, and now the cat's out of the bag, and nobody in their right mind wants in. After all. This isn't America we're talking about, it's kolo Evropi...laughs

The stall tactic was necessary for the banks to get their ducks in a row. They're in a row now, but they must hold Greece's feet to the fire so, she implements at least part of those plans. After which another haircut for sure, but Greece will still be a mess.

The only other solution would have been a strong Federal style system from the beginning, but what fun would that have been?

Don't kid yourself. Even with everything up and running perfectly from the beginning, the Markets would still have found someone or something to screw with. That's what they do. Fish got to swim, and last I checked, sharks aint vegetarians...laughs

Now, here's the story behind the story: Half a billion? That's it! Even our elites are broke ass poor, and the disparity between our elites, and our so called Greek middle class has been made even greater by austerity.

So yes, by all means, go after the elites everywhere, but let us not confuse this wedge issue, with what is truly wrong with Europe's monetary policy.



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