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Real-time commentary and analysis from The Wall Street Journal

Free Sleep Advice From the Sleep Deprived

    • I was skimming the sleep article last night and my first thought was: If Tucker wrote a book on getting your child to sleep, it would be two sentences long!
      I've said before, we have one kid who is a good sleeper and one who is not. The simple approach really is the best, but I'm guessing the experts sell more books if they make them longer than two sentences.

    • I saw that article in the WSJ yesterday and thought some of it was incredibly ridiculous. The most helpful advice received was on days the child doesn't nap was to put her to bed a little earlier? HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THE PARENTS AREN'T DOING THAT ALREADY?

      I have a question for the hivemind. I have 11 months to learn as much of a foreign language as possible. Has anyone had success with any particular language CDs? Rosetta Stone?

    • The consistent approach - put the kids back to sleep and try to maintain the same bed time and the same routine every night worked for our kids. I haven't read the article but making a habit of playing music, a very special toy etc means that it will be very hard for the child to fall asleep without these things - I've seen that it makes things a lot harder when the family is away from home in new surroundings without the sleep aids.

      In our house - DD is five but will still call out when she wants to use the bathroom - even though the bathroom is next door to her bedroom - she asks permission thereby waking us up.
      However, we the parents have mastered the art of going back to sleep so we don't feel zombie like the next day.

    • Have a routine, and make sure the kids are actually tired when they go to bed.

    • GaMom, I think a lot of that depends on your learning style. I've never been able to learn languages from a book or in a classroom; using the language and hearing it in natural situations work for me. Fastest I ever learned a language was 2 months with a Brazilian guy who was in love with me. By the time I broke up with him, I was conversational, could understand a comic CD at a party fast enough to laugh along with everyone else, just couldn't read much. Then again, neither could he.

      On topic, we never had sleep issues until school. He's got to be there by 15 min after sunrise. His district has made the decision to let teenagers get the sleep they need by starting middle & high school later. They take it out ofthe little ones hides. So unfair! I think we're going to get one of those clocks that gradually turns on a full-spectrum light.

    • Am I missing the obvious - half dose of Ambien? Benadryl? JOKE!


      I'm just firm. Go to sleep. Sometimes I have to be firmer than others. I have to rub her back till she falls asleep. If I do this, she is out in 10. If I waffle and try to not rub her back, it is an ordeal.

    • Some kids dont get enough activity during the day and watch too much tv before bed - which stimulates them. Honestly you dont need a book, better would be a bullet point list of Do's and Don'ts. Here's mine:

      maintain a routine
      make sure they get enough activity throughout the day
      drink enough during the day, stay hydrated
      complex carbs with dinner, limit sugars
      no drink right before bed
      read them 1-2 short stories or tell them a story/make one up
      take a bath in a calming environment
      sleep with favorite stuffed animal

      TV or other electronic/computer/etc 1 hour before bed
      sweets before bed
      drinks before bed
      wait too long to take them to bed/overtired
      dont read them horror stories

    • DD is only 6 months old, so I'm far from an expert, but she's been regularly sleeping 11 hours through the night since she was 9 weeks old. Part of me attritubes this to lucking out with an easy baby, but I also consciously made the effort to put her to bed at the same time every night, and ensure she gets sufficient naps during the day to avoid being over tired.

      making a habit of playing music, a very special toy etc means that it will be very hard for the child to fall asleep without these things – I’ve seen that it makes things a lot harder when the family is away from home in new surroundings without the sleep aids.

      I've also tried to avoid any type of elaborate go-to-sleep routine, and so far she has no problem sleeping in new or different places when we travel, and it's easy for both DH and our nanny to put her to bed if I'm stuck at work.

    • "If Tucker wrote a book on getting your child to sleep, it would be two sentences long!"

      God, you people know me too well.

      I think routines and consistency and a glass of warm milk and soft lights and quiet music and a process where the house lights are darkened T minus 30 minutes to bed and whatever other tricks you like are great and wonderful for babies and toddlers, up to about 2.5.

      After that age, and certainly by 3, I expect that when a kid is put to bed, kissed goodnight, and told to stay in his room, that he will do so without incident. Like I've said many times, at some point kids need to learn to simply obey what their parents tell them. If they want to lay in bed while quietly playing with a couple of stuffed animals, or page through a book until they're ready to fall asleep, that's fine. But they shouldn't come out of their rooms. That's it. No need for $200-per-hour consultants.

    • I've posted on this topic before, but routine and early bed times work for us. It was a recommendation from our ped when our daughter was only 6 months about earlier bed times can actually lead to more hours of overnight sleep. We used to keep our daughter up late because we wanted to spend time with her in the evenings because we didn't get home before 6:30.

      We find that an early, consistent bed time still works as we extended the time she goes to bed in the summer by 30 - 60 minutes and she still woke up at the same time in the morning. Same for the start of school - we went back to the earlier bed time and she is waking up at the same time, so she is effectively picking up an extra 30 - 60 minutes of sleep a night and that is better for her mood and development.

      As a participant in prior posts on this topic, I know this doesn't work for all kids and all schedules. Some kids have different cycles. I still think consistent routines before bed, and the same bed time are really helpful. Also, try to always let them sleep in their own beds even if it means sleeping on their floor when they are really young or sick.

    • Formula or milk before bed/middle of the night will lead to tooth decay. Always brush their teeth,

    • I didn't read the article but we've never been ones for noise machines and the like. We have always just put our daughter to bed and we try to stay consistent with time. She doesn't always go to sleep right away (she plays with her stuffed animals and looks at books in the dark), but that's okay as long as she stays in her room which she almost always does. She's never really battled us at bedtime, although night waking was a problem at ages 2 and 3. Now at 4 she rarely wakes up in the middle of the night. My son is just like my daughter was as a baby, just throw him in the crib and he's asleep in 15 minutes. We had my BIL and SIL visiting a few weeks ago with their 15 month old who has a very involved bedtime routine. A noise machine wasn't cutting it because it only would play for 40 minutes so they used an old alarm clock radio we had and had it turned to a static station all night really loudly (as in we could hear it on a different floor). DH and I couldn't believe they could sleep like that but I do admit that I've probably had it easy with both kids (and fingers crossed it stays that way).

    • OK - I read the article and some of the things the parents were doing like laying in the bed with the child, having a favorite toy to sleep with and some of the suggestions that the experts gave like CD's, white noise machine etc are big NO's for me.
      Don't make a habit of anything that you cannot sustain night after night.

    • You mean: "Go the F to sleep"

    • I've given up on all sleep issues. I put my son to bed at a consistent time and we do our normal routines (chat about what's on the plate for tomorrow, prayers, kisses, etc.). Inevitably, my little guy gets up and comes into my room. I've learned that he doesn't go to sleep until he wants to. He knows he has to do well in school the next day or there will be problems. Eventually, he gets tired, falls asleep in my bed and I take him back to his room. I know this is horrible parenting, but it works for us.

    • As with everything with kids. You have to want it enough to have the self discipline necessary to be consistent, period.

    • Either our kids are the four easiest known to mankind, or firm consistency works. If I tell you to go to bed, you go to bed. You don't turn on your lights and read, you don't get out of bed and play, you don't call me or come out of your room. You go to bed. Ours had such definitive bedtimes and we were so strict about it that as a reward, they could earn "staying up for 5 whole extra minutes!" They would go to the ends of the earth to earn that reward. When we all convene at the grandparents' house, the difference in bedtime routines are truly amazing. Ours consists of, "It's bedtime. Get in bed and we'll tuck you in." BIL's consists of over an hour of movies in bed, discussions about bedtime, extra drinks and snacks, etc. Those kids need some good solid Tuckerization. ;)

    • And one other thing, as long as I'm up here...for kids older than 2.5 or so, we don't really worry about always sticking to a consistent bed time. Maybe they took a long nap, maybe they took no nap; maybe I'm exhausted and have a full DVR, maybe I'm up for playing for an extra 45 minutes. Maybe we were out to dinner and running a few errands kind of late. Maybe I was traveling and they can stay up extra late to see me for 20 minutes before bed.

      The point is that life is much easier and more enjoyable for everyone when you can establish that kids should do what they're told and be adaptable; then the parents don't have to manage their environments so delicately in the hope that they'll simpy default to the behavior you're wishing for.

    • To Uncertain: It isn't horrible if it is working for you. What is annoying about these articles is that the parent complains about not getting enough to sleep meanwhile resisting doing the obvious things that would help. What works for one family might not work for another, but being consistent and enforcing whatever "rules" you create matters.

    • The Weissbluth book "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" was indispensible to me. I always give it as a baby-shower gift to new moms-to-be.

    • Haha, that's my internal voice. :-) My outside voice is, "Brownpup, enough. It's bedtime. You won't get to watch TV or do X if you don't go to sleep NOW."

      I do think go the f to sleep. Who doesn't? I've got my own Ambien waiting. :-)

    • Just as an fyi, bedtimes in our house worked this way: (1) before about 4th grade: 7:30 or 8. (2) 4th and 5th grade: 8:30. (3) 6th -8th grade: go to your room at 9, set your own bedtime. No electronics of any kind after 9pm. You keep this privilege as long as you don't show signs of fatigue. (4) 9th grade: set your own time to go to your room and set your own bedtime. No electronics of any kind after 9pm. You keep this privilege as long as you don't keep us awake or show signs of fatigue. Not one of our kids stays up past 10pm (though they all stayed up til 1am the first day of 6th grade). It might help that we don't watch tv on school nights and other than school work and 10 min of combined FB and gmail, they don't use computers on school nights. I do think those screens fire us all up a bit too much.

    • LStages - LOL! our routine is exactly like yours - when the clock gets close to 9 p.m. it means come upstairs, use the bathroom and hop into bed where you'll be tucked in and will be ready to sleep by 9 p.m.

    • The Weissbluth book “Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child” was indispensible to me. I always give it as a baby-shower gift to new moms-to-be.

      This is also the sleep book I read and followed, with excellent results. I may have just lucked out, but I have a very happy baby with consistent sleep schedules.

    • The key for normal distribution kids is to train the child to calm himself. My DIL, who is very crunchy in most things and when the kids are awake and in her care does nothing but attend to them, is a dragon about sleep. She is a person who needs time alone and structure, and it appears she got kids like that as well. She trained the baby to settle herself down by not picking up at the first squawk and putting down (past infant stage) for nap or bed not quite asleep. A little back or tummy rub, not much more. She wants the baby to learn to sleep in a noisy living room so that dark, quiet and soothing music are not required. . After 6 mos she stopped nursing right before bed to allow both parents or a sitter to put the child to bed. All we had to do was hum twinkle twinkle little star a few times. fixed naptime and bedtime, within reason. A camera in the bedroom so that any noise can be evaluated without actually entering the room. Separate small rooms for each child.

    • Red Shoe, it really does work for us. I'm single so there's not much going on in my bed at night. I really don't care if he's there or not. We don't speak or do anything else-- the nighttime routines have already been done. I ignore him.

      But being with me seems to give him some kind of comfort.

      My son is normally very independent. Also, I truly don't worry about him doing this when he starts puberty.

    • Actually the sleep book I used for Brownpup as a newborn which I loved was "Babywise". Loved it. She was sleeping through the night at 3 months and was a great sleeper until 3 years. Then she got a little bit difficult with the transition to her big girl bed but it isn't that terrible, really.

    • I read this article in the journal yesterday and have been waiting for the post on the juggle! To me it is the parents who are the ones with the problem. This is a 3 year old with consistent bad habits, not a baby or even a 2 year old who is going through a rough spell. Tucker, maybe you can hire yourself out as a a sleep consultant, too!

    • @Tucker 10:43 - I agree that's a fine plan for most kids/families, and we certainly did that on some occasions. For three of ours, it would've been fine on a more regular basis. But our youngest was a Junior Negotiator In Training and any movement from "your bedtime is 8:00, period" on any given night would have led to protracted negotiations every night thereafter. The others likely missed out on some bedtime flexibility because of her. Then again, as the youngest, she misses out on some things too - all evens out in the end.

    • "Tucker, maybe you can hire yourself out as a a sleep consultant, too!"

      It's a thought. I think that most of my potential clients would want to imagine that it should be more difficult than it is.

      OT: I find myself seeing/hearing/reading items in the news and expecting Juggle appearances. The Wa. Post ran an article the other day about parental resistance to the new rear-facing-until-two-years car-seat guidelines.

      Also, the news I was falling asleep to last night said that Maryland is considering banning the sale of crib bumpers.

    • Awesome - I'll listen tonight when I won't offend any of my uptight office mates. Have I mentioned I work in Stepford?

      But I apparently have an offer that my recruiter can't open on her Blackberry... I'm suffering here waiting for her to get to her office. I can't wait to get out of Stepford!

    • I wonder if anyone had ever taken a child to a doctor for sleep issues and had a referral to a specialist? I must say I don't know what the indications for referral are. I think my almost 3 year old is having nightmares. She has begun fighting going to bed because she doesn't want things "falling from the sky" and other bizarre protests. We have taken a tough love approach, but it feels kind of terrible. We tell her firmly it is time to go to bed and she pitifully cries for about 5 minutes. Once a week or more she is awake with some bizarre story and incredibly difficult to go back to sleep. Recently she was up from 1-3, laying quietly in her bed, every 20 minutes or so making a request -- can I get up and snuggle? can I have some milk? In between requests it looked like she was trying to go to sleep and couldn't. Even though we treat that with a firm, "it is dark you need to go back to sleep" and leave her alone, it is impossible for me to sleep until she is back to sleep. Is this pathology or just a difficult phase?

      On the other hand,I have been out of town and I had to examine a cold and dead child roughly the shape of my younger a few nights ago. Baby was up to eat about a zillion times last night (she was happy for the return of the warm milk delivery program). However, every time she woke, up, I thought, " I am glad my baby is warm and crying." I will get over this soon enough and go back to cursing the interruptions, but for now, it is nice to live with a little gratitude.

    • GaMom, does this mean you are moving to South America for DH's job? Wow!

    • Our youngest sleeps on the floor with the hall light on. She is afraid of "Bloody Mary." She was told that if "bloody Mary" is said three times in front of a darkened mirror, then an indeterminate scary thing will happen.

    • I agree with Portia that a camera in the room does make the "leave them alone to solve their own problems" a lot easier. I used to think video monitors were for crazy people, but it has helped us to be more hands off.

      I would love to here about people who have had success with two kids sleeping in the same room at a young age. Our toddler and infant ostensibly share a room. We put the toddler to bed and then move the sleeping infant in once the older one is sleeping. The infant comes into our bed early in the morning to avoid early wake up of the toddler. It is a bit of a hassle and I am wondering when people just teach them to fall asleep together.

    • Mamadoc - Is there anything she has seen even on a kids TV show that is causing her to be anxious ? DS started being scared of imaginary storms when he saw a storm on Little Bear.
      We kept mention of monsters etc to the minimum in our house....

    • Did you hear yet about getting a package at your current job? I must have missed where your new job will be - good luck!

    • I also used to think video monitors were for crazy people, but I can't imagine not having it now. Much easier to check on her without actually going in to her room and potentially waking her completely.

    • No, that's Mamadoc that's considering it. For me it just means I am going on vacation and really prefer to be conversational in the language of the country I'm in. Also, and less high-minded, I have lots of time in the car every day (at least an hour) and thought if there were good CDs, it would be an interesting way to pass the time. But RS is crazy $$, I don't want to spend it w/o an unbiased endorsement.

    • Last night I found the light on in my boys room at 9:30. The younger one was awake watching his brother. I asked why the light was on and he said it was because the older one had a bad dream and was scared. We have trained them to seek comfort from each other. Half the time they sleep in the same bed.

    • to MamaDoc: I have a friend who works in Dr. Ferber's office. I've consulted informally with her, but never actually tried to get an appointment! Usually, they recommend the consistent approach stuff first before they start looking for medical reasons why a child can't sleep. Especially if the kid doesn't have any known conditions that might cause sleep problems. Also on the baby and toddler sleeping in the same room, we hoped that would work for our kids, but it didn't. Our non-sleeper was too disruptive for our good sleeper. We put them in separate rooms. In our old place, that meant the baby (non-sleeper) didn't actually have a "room" - she slept in our office. In our new place, everyone has their own bedroom. I'd put the baby in a separate space (even a good sized closet) - babies don't care - and try to put them together when the baby is older and has a better sleep pattern.

    • @ssk, I filled out the paperwork and now I'm waiting! Fingers crossed! Thank you!

    • Mamadoc - it took us a couple years to get to the point where the kids jump in each other's beds instead of running to ours. I still don't mind when they come in to our room - they like to snuggle and one day they won't (and DH and I will miss it).

    • My earlier post makes it sound easy, but it never is. We were bitten by sleep issues this month. My daughter started kindergarten. Before that, she had been in fullday childcare where the kids napped for 2 hours. Now she is in pseudo-fullday kindergarten (ends at 3) where they don't nap, and then she heads to an afterschool program. No naps, of course. My two boys managed the transition without too much trouble, and they go to bed later than most of you would think proper. However, it wasn't working for my daughter. So we tried moving her bedtime earlier, to 7 - but then she kept waking up at 4am, ready to get up and get dressed! After a few days of that, we realized that she didn't need quite so many hours of sleep, so now she is in bed by 8, and that seems about right. My boys go between 9:30 and 10, and have since kindergarten.
      My big issue with my daughter's new bedtime is that she can't eat dinner with us, and I feel that is not right on many levels. Hopefully, this will shake itself out over time.

    • Our boys, 8 and 6, sleep in the same room and have done so for three years. Our 4 year is allowed to sleep in the same room on non-school night. The boys think she snores too much. We have space for separate rooms but they enjoy sleeping in the same room. It is a treat to stand by the door and listen to them talk to one another.

    • to GaMom: I haven't ever used Rosetta Stone, but I have heard good things about it and if you're trying to fill your commute time, go for it. You probably don't need to learn verb conjugations to be functional on vacation, though. Not to be too "coarse American" about it, but in most places, if you get the basic travel phrases down, you are probably going to do just fine. Last time DH and I were in Rome (pre-kids, obviously), we were surprised at how many times Italians complimented us on pronouncing Grazie correctly. Apparently, Americans get it wrong most of the time.

    • Another question about sharing rooms. We will have to put #2 into #1's room when he turns 2 - to empty his room for the new baby. Has anyone done this at ages 2 and 4 or so, and how did it work? I know the 4 yo will have to cut out the nighttime gymnastics routine, which she now does with the big girl bed (swinging from the top rails, etc.) or else she will wake him up.

    • One other thing about kids sharing a room - younger one goes to sleep 1/2 hour ahead of older one. Usually he is asleep by the time the older one comes in. Also, when they were really young, we put the child safe lock on the inside of the door to avoid the game of in and out that the kids played. Wanted to reinforce that going to bed means staying in your room.

    • We're blessed with easy kids. Sleep times can vary by 30-60 minutes on Friday and Saturday evening, but we're strict on the weekdays. 3rd grader is in bed by 8:15pm, 7th grader is in bed by 8:00pm. No electronics 30 minutes before bed. It riles them up too much.

    • Ratgirl - I think by the next school year your daughter may be able to keep awake till 9 p.m. DS was a big napper but by the first grade he had no nap and is able to stay awake till 9 p.m. most days - some days when he is tired he'll ask to go to bed after 8.30 p.m.
      We enforce the 9 p.m. bedtime otherwise they are reluctant to wake in the mornings and are not happy campers.

    • I just took a minute to read the article. He seemed to say that none of the three consultants actually helped at all. I, too, would be a cranky consumer.

    • Mia, what is a child safe lock?

    • I read this article and can understand being so sleep deprived that you'll try anything to get the kid to sleep. That being said, sleep is a learned behavior, as is sleeping in your own bed through the night. I agree with others that consistency, routine and persistence are key. We generally have no problems with getting the kids to bed because we've followed the same basic routine since they were babies. Once asleep you could park a Mac truck next to them and they wouldn't wake up.

    • @ Red shoe mama...I'm not saying where we're going, but on the next boring post would you please hijack and give all details of Rome trips? :)

      On sleep, we've had it both ways. We have one that will sleep anywhere, anytime. We probably could have been very inconsistent with him and he still would have been a good sleeper. We have another that is a night owl, suffers from reflux, and always wants his mama, so his sleep is more of a challenge. But we are very consistent with routine (bath, bed, books), restrictions on calling for me, and if he climbs into bed with us at 2am, gets marched right back upstairs. He's a challenge, but so long as the reflux is under control, being consistent and firm really does pay off.

      I am an absolute stickler for 7:30 bedtime, though, because my kids cannot "push through" if they are tired. They just completely fall apart. Sadly, they come by that trait honestly.


      Yes Yes Yes... someone gave us this book as a gift after our daughter was born, it's our bible. I also buy it for friends who are having thier first kiddo.

    • "what is a child safe lock?"

      I'm thinking one of those devices that fits over a door handle or knob and only allows manipulation if a specific button/lever is pressed beforehand. I think it foils most young children's attempts.

    • DS is been a good sleeper, but we've always been pretty firm with him about sleep, too.

      Tucker, I test drove a Mazda CX-9 yesterday. Promising. Very promising. (DH vetoed the Venza -- apparently he has something against Toyotas. I don't care to figure out why.)

      DH is so tired of me dragging my feet on this that I wouldn't be surprised to find a CX-9 in my driveway sometime in the next week.

    • I can also understand how sleep deprivation can cloud one's ability to do what's best for your kid's sleep. When you're exhausted it's always easiest to just pull the baby into bed and nurse. My 5-month old is still in the bassinette in our room, and although he sleeps pretty well (wakes up once to eat at night), it's not the best for my sleep so I suffer (and he'd probably sleep better in his own room). But I'm emotional about it because it's my second (likely last) baby and I'm not ready to move him to his own room yet. At some point in the next few weeks I'll make the transition...sniff, sniff. Our 3-year old is a great sleeper, but she has times when she resists going to bed or isn't quite ready to sleep. We give her the option of reading in bed to herself, which she does a lot.

    • Ouch, Tucker. I can't imagine locking my kid in his room at night. If a fire started, say, in my room, I'd want him to be out of his room like a bat out of hell!

    • WFI my best friend just got a brand new Nissan Murano, which I think is in the same or similar category to the CX-9. It was very impressive!

    • GaMom, check out the language CDs at your local library. Though the legality is questionable, you could copy the CDs or rip them to mp3. My library has the Pimsleur CDs and they're really quite good. I brushed up on my Spanish before we had some visitors from Spain who spoke approximately zero English (my husband speaks pretty fluent Spanish).

    • I wonder how much of this is inherited? Two of our kids were colicky and thus horrible sleepers as babies. Even as toddlers/preschoolers, they need less sleep than their peers and stop naps early. My husband struggles with insomnia and I can get by with little sleep. Other than having a consistent bedtime routine, I don't try to make them sleep. I can make my children sit on the potty or stay in their rooms; I cannot make them pee (or sleep.) If my 4 year old is still awake at 10:30 or 11, I let him turn on the light and "read" until he's tired.

    • I used the Babywise book, too, and passed it onto my friend who had twins. At the time, some people felt it was unusually harsh but it worked well for both of us. My kids are generally good sleepers, but I was pretty firm about bedtimes and short, consistent routines. At one point, my daughter was being a PITA about staying in her room. We placed one of those plastic gates in the doorway so that she couldn't get out and then we went to bed we had to pick her up off the floor, where she fell asleep, and put her back in bed. Middle DS had occasional bad dreams, and when that happened, he was allowed to sleep in our room on a love seat next to our bed.

      There was a lot of chatter a while back about co-sleeping with infants. I wonder how much that contributes to sleep problems down the road. When do you break the pattern?

    • Mamadoc - My boys share a room and always have. They're 3 3/4. You'd be surprised what they can sleep through! That is, once they're asleep. One really craves a routine and is rather compulsive about it so this is basically the routine we've since they were 2. We get PJs on, read stories, drink milk, brush teeth and then allow each to pick a book or toy/letters (one likes to spell with his wooden letters, the other likes a toy) for bedtime at 8 pm (at 2, it was 7/7:30 pm). I sing a lullabye, tuck then in and then shut the door. They're allowed to read for 15-30 minutes then lights out. If it turns into a circus, lights out. If it deteriorates further, things get taken away. If it really spirals, we resort to comforting tactics - tucking back in bed, back rub. Those nights we wish they had separate bedrooms, but they're becoming less frequent.

      Weekdays go much better than weekends. They key is to make sure they get enough physical activity during the day. We have a modified routine for travel - shorter but similar.

      Weissbluth was a life saver for us their first year.

      I'm hoping to shorten the routine a bit as they mature. My expectations are similar to Tucker's but starting at 4, not 3.

    • "Though the legality is questionable, you could copy the CDs or rip them to mp3."

      The legality is not questionable at all. That's piracy, and it's illegal.

    • "Ouch, Tucker. I can’t imagine locking my kid in his room at night. If a fire started, say, in my room, I’d want him to be out of his room like a bat out of hell!"

      I didn't say that I was doing it, I was only explaining the device. We've never used them. Still, I don't think it's a problem. Depending on the age, I don't know how many young kids are really going to get themselves safely outside during a fire. Obviously, a kid in his crib won't. I'd imagine a two- or three-year old would likely just hang around screaming and inhaling smoke. I'd rather just trust that I'll wake up and be able to grab them; I'd prefer that they didn't try to run downstairs/outside, because then I won't necessarily know if they're in or out. Speaking of this, the errant midnight smoke-detector alarms never re-appeared after I posted that quetion. Go figure.

      WFI - Toyotas are awesome cars, but their driving dynamics are kind of marshmallowy--and that's perfectly fine, it's a subjective preference. But maybe that's not your DH's peference. The CX-9 seems nice. You could also try the Hyundai Veracruz, just for comparison's sake.

    • Sleep patterns depend on both the parent and the child. If you do not have night owls for children, you are lucky. Kids who are night owls or live on a different cycle than a 24 hour day have a more difficult time sleeping. It's virtually impossible to turn a night owl into a morning person.

      Consistency helps but so does getting kids who want to sleep when the parents sleep. Even consistent routines don't help some children although I strongly advocate turning down the lights and enforcing a no talking rule for the kids. The parents, of course, are allowed to talk and the kids should just get used to it.

      I have found that kids who miss their natural bedtime and stay up too late may have a more difficult time falling asleep.

    • To anonymous @ 12:01 - I've never understood that argument. if there is a fire in the house, and you can't safely get to them, wouldn't you rather them stay put with doors closed than be wandering around? Because presumably, the first thing they would do would be to try to get to you.

    • @ Mamadoc, both of my kids went through that at age 3 as well. Crazy nightmares, saying things like their toys were coming to life and trying to get them, hard to convince them their room was safe, etc. But for both it only lasted a few weeks and - this could be total correlation, not causation - we completely stopped all TV at the time, and the nightmares stopped almost immediately.

    • Oh yeah, speaking of waking up--we lost power a few weeks ago for a few hours, starting at about 3:30 am. Naturally, the kids' night-lights went dark. Holy Mother of God! you'd have thought somebody was being murdered the way they woke us up screaming in terror (from separate rooms!). I ended up using my cell phone as a flash light and carrying my youngest down to the garage to dig out my battery-powered LED camping lantern which I strategically placed in the middle of the upstairs balcony so that, with their doors open, just enough light would shine in to each room.

    • I put the child safe lock on at bedtime and it is as Tucker described. Once they are asleep, we took it off and cracked the door open. I would never want my kid to be trapped but I am only going to play the game of in and out of the room 15 times with a 2 yr-old for a couple nights. By the way, most studies show that kids will sleep through a fire alarm. Once they hit 4, they can manipulate the child lock and it lost its effect.

    • I'm lucky to have good sleepers - crappy eaters, but good sleepers. A wise mom I know who is a physician who works in Ferber's sleep clinic once told a group of moms that "You have a sleep problem if it is a problem for YOU." So, if you don't mind nursing your baby three times a night or having your ten year old sleep on the floor of your room, then who am I to judge? But if you aren't happy, someone's behavior has to change, and most of the time, it is the parent's. I used to hate babysitting for kids who would say "Lie down with me!" when it was bedtime. I swore I would never do it as a parent, and I've pretty much stuck with it. Occasionally, I might snuggle for 1 - 2 minutes after stories with my little one, but really, once everyone is in bed I am DONE!

    • When my daughter was 8 she started having really bad dreams about aliens, people trying to take her away, etc. I think it started at school with a popular book that was making the rounds in her class but it really freaked her out. It got to the point where she would try anything not to fall asleep. We tried to convince her that space aliens were fiction, etc. but nothing worked. Finally, we saw the school psychologist, who was able to reason with her, and got her to understand that, even if these things were real, which they are not, her parents would NEVER let anyone take her away. That did the trick.

    • A few random thoughts...

      My 3 year old just had a week or so of waking at 1 or 2 a.m. with nightmares. She would easily calm and go back to sleep, but I had a terrible time falling asleep afterwards.

      My girls both share a room, but can NOT nap together. The little one still naps in a pack & play in our office, and the 3 year old is, I think, just about giving up her nap (sigh) but does quiet time on the weekends.
      @Mamadoc-- we started about the way you are. As the baby gave up those early a.m. nursing sessions, she was spending more and more of the night in the room with her sister. The baby goes to bed about 30 min before big sister, which eases things a bit. Although when we have a babysitter, the baby will NOT go to bed until big sister is in the room too, and then she's perfectly content. Bonus of siblings.

      Our house is tiny, and we do use a sound machine. It's easy enough to travel with at most places, and at worst, my kids can take it with them to college and deal with it then ;) It's nice when we travel because as soon as the sound machine is plugged in, it's still "bedtime," though they sleep fine without it.

    • @ CT3 - my BIL's family co sleeps - they have two kids - a seven year old and an almost three year old - everyone sleeps in the family bed. At one point the seven year old slept in his own room but it was never consistent.
      When they visited us they slept on a blow up mattress on the floor and were miffed that we had made up our day bed with a mattresses above and below for them in addition to the blow up mattress on the floor. Their attitude was "Don't these hosts know that we all sleep together" ? We do not keep track of a family's sleep arrangements but try to make sure there is enough room so that every is comfortable - if you choose to be squeeze in - well then....

    • Thanks for the various thoughts on shared bedrooms. It just seems like it should be easier -- historically people have had more children than bedrooms....

    • My kids like to have music to fall asleep to. I have the same CD on Itunes on my phone. Easy for travel and brings some comfort. Am I the only one here that was afraid of the dark and anxious about new places as a child?

    • @Mamadoc--for what it's worth, I suspect they would have adapted just fine. The bigger risks for me were when the baby woke at 5 a.m. for a while, I didn't want her waking the toddler for the day at the same time. I suspect when you have to, you all just deal with the consequences until it settles out. I know that when the baby hit about 1, I started to hear the two of them in there in the morning, babbling, the toddler singing to the baby or reading her stories. It's really very sweet. AND, although I am awake, I get to stay in bed and listen to them being happy together for a little while at the start of the day.

    • "a seven year old and an almost three year old – everyone sleeps in the family bed."

      Same question always pops into my head: Do these people never have sex?

    • "historically people have had more children than bedrooms…."

      historically they dealt with these issues with a firmer hand.

    • Mad scientist party supplies update, in case it saves anyone some footwork for their own party:

      Clear vinyl tubing, $.21 per foot, from hardware store, will serve as drinking straws

      Ikea has $.79 vases that look like bumpy Erlenmeier flasks. Carnations in various stages of color change in these will decorate the table (Can anyone tell me how long it takes for this process to start?)

      Party City did not have fizzy powder:(. I'm still looking for it.

      Ikea "Glimma" votive candleholders look like Petrie dishes and will be used to serve ice cream

      Ice cream recipe, from the Don Harrington Discovery Center in Amarillo, to be made in front of kids:

      5 pints  half n half
      3 ½ pint whole milk
      1 ¾ cups sugar
      ¼ teaspoon salt
      1 teaspoon vanilla
      This makes 1 gallon of ice cream mix
      The way I make it is I buy one ½ gallon of half n half and one pint of half n half.  Pour those into a gallon container.  Then add the sugar/salt and vanilla.  Mix it together and then fill up the rest of the container with the milk.  Then it’s ready to go.
      As far as freezing it, we use Liquid Nitrogen which is very expensive to use unless you already have a special container to hold it in. 
      But, here is how you can do it with Dry Ice.
      Fill a sandwich Ziploc bag half way with dry ice. You will probably want 3-4 bags for the a whole gallon of mix.  Then you need to pound it into a powder.  You want it as small as possible.  Then stir this into your ice cream mix ( I recommend a metal bowl and spoon).   If the ice cream is not hard enough add more dry ice powder.  Once you can no longer see any dry ice or it is no longer smoking it is safe to serve.

    • My boys share a room and always have. They go to bed at the same time. They often sleep together, in the same bed. My daughter has her own room and bed, but often migrates to our room in the middle of the night. It doesn't bother us. My husband grew up in a family of immigrants who shared beds, so he thinks it is normal. My daughter, as all the regulars here know, has some mild attachment issues stemming from an early start in an orphanage, so I prefer to do things that promote closeness and not worry about the American Anglo notion of correct sleep habits.

    • Sorry about the spacing. If you want the recipe with decent formatting, email me at hotmail.

    • saac - Save some of that dry ice for sometime during the party. You can put it in the kitchen sink and spray some warm water on it and it will "smoke" up the whole kitchen floor--(the lab). You can take it outside and drop chunks into puddles or containers of water. You could make an "experiment" with different containers of water at successively increasing temperatures, and drop dry ice into each one and see how vigorously it (sublimates?).

      We always have some kind of fun with the Omaha Steaks deliveries.

    • Ratgirl - In my country of origin kids often sleep in the same room as the parents. When they are babies they co sleep but as they grow - they have their own sleeping spot near their siblings - usually the oldest kid is in charge of making sure everyone settles down etc. Parents tend to remove themselves from the process.

    • I am a lurker, but rarely post...this topic hits a nerve for me though. Our DD just turned one. We have a consistent (quiet, low-lit) pre-bed time. We are consistent. Bed time is at 7/7:30, and DD takes two decent to good naps every day. She goes to sleep pretty easily, but she wakes every single least twice, mostly three times. At 12a, 3a, and 5a. DH and I are exhausted...would love tips and advice.

      We have tried letting her cry (on a limited basis only, I am a bleeding heart), and shushing and patting and rocking and even feeding. Tylenol for teething. HELP!

    • While I was happy to see the subject of sleep coaching in yesterday’s paper “Cry for Help: Make This Tot Sleep”-(Tuesday, September 27, 2011) I found the tone of the piece somewhat belittling, both to sleep coaches and to families seeking their help.

      Sleep deprivation can have debilitating effects on the whole family, including depression, anxiety, diminished capacity for reasoning and resilience and it can contribute to the development of insomnia in both children and adults.

      Granted, the industry of sleep coaching is a relatively new one. But at one time, so was birth coaching and lactation consultants, both of which serve as critical support for millions of both expectant and new parents, alike.

      The sleep deprivation that followed the birth of my first son was, to me, the biggest and least expected hurdle of new parenthood. Yes, the birth was tough and the breastfeeding didn’t go as planned. But luckily there were trained professionals on hand to lend support, information and encouragement.

      In contrast, the only “help” I could find in regards to sleep came from a series of books (all of which were shockingly contradictory) and the well meaning suggestions from other exhausted mothers. I vowed that if my son ever started sleeping through the night, I would find a way to help other parents avoid the unnecessary stress, pitfalls and confusion that surrounds the issue of pediatric sleep.

      To characterize sleep coaches as being poised to “collect the money” of exhausted, vulnerable parents, is not only untrue, it could deter families from reaching out and getting necessary help.

    • Ratgirl, I like your rationale. I'll have to use it next time someone questions cosleeping. Surely my son's father slept with his mother in Ghana as a child.

      When I tried to move my son out of my bed, inthe midst of his troubles, I locked my bedroom door. He got out a hammer and beat a hole in it trying to get to me (hollow door. I unlocked it before he got through the panel on the other side)

      Back to school is always a fraught time, and allergy season starting up doesn't help. Lately I've been using the lavender oil and progressive relaxation (sometimes combined with "stop talking. Relax your jaw"). He also has a couple techniques he's learned in yoga. They seem to work better if he's guiding me through them instead of just trying to do it himself. There are times he's so wound up that it helps if he rubs my back before I do his. We also go to bed half an hour before I want him to be asleep. Concerns from the day often crop up then, and I want him to be able to get them out briefly before we start the deep breaths w long exhales or whatever.

    • "We have tried letting her cry (on a limited basis only,"

      Let her cry on a more consistent basis. Let her cry in increasing intervals. First go in after five minutes, quick pat on the back, no more than 20 seconds. Next, let her cry for 10 minutes, same routine. Then 15 minutes, etc. It might take a few nights.

      Possibly alternate nights with your husband. The sleeping partner might sleep in a guest room and/or with ear plugs.

      Right now you have a kid that wakes up periodically on cycle--which is fine and normal--but my bleeding heart finds it sad that she hasn't learned that stirring in the middle of the night is not a cause for terror and screaming. Overall, she's spending far more time being upset than if you'd teach and show her that she can handle this on her own.

    • Debbie Downer, I hate to tell you, but it is time for you to take some Ambien or go stay somewhere else for the weekend and let her cry it out. If you want, you can go in, give her a pat, say "Time to go to sleep", make sure she's fine, and then just let her cry. Trust me, be tough, have a week or so of misery, and you will be rewarded with YEARS of a good sleeper. At least, that's the theory! Good luck! Oh, and call every friend you know that's done sleep training and they will give you support and sympathy. You can do it!


      Oh, for God's sake, don't feed her! Imagine she's a gremlin.

    • Debbie, as mentioned in a couple of posts, find a copy of "Healthly Sleep Habits, Happy Child". The book is very blunt, but we were having similiar issues and followed the advice given in the text. Our daughter sleeps through the night at 13 months.


      Amen to that. But I don't suppose you can make a living as a sleep consultant if you take that approach.
      Honestly, i cannot imagine what this generation of kids will be like as parents. Maybe they will outsource the whole process, from newborns to college graduation.

    • I am seriously giggling at the gremlin comment....

    • @Allboys-- We outsource a lot of things that our parents wouldn't have considered outsourcing. We also don't live near a lot of family help (and could not be employed in our particular field if we were to move closer to family). I'm also finding that there is a giant generational gap on some things. No one in our family nursed-- so nursing questions? Outsourced. When my kids had trouble sleeping, my own MIL commented that she didn't even remember anymore how she got her kids to sleep, but she knows eventually they both slept well. My next sibling is ages younger than I am, and my DH's sibling did not have kids when ours was born-- there wasn't much family "institutional knowledge" on dealing with kids, and we didn't have that resource to fall back on. We did read a few books, and mostly relied on common sense, and I think we were lucky that we all hit our groove and things have so far worked out fine. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that we had some tough moments figuring out that our oldest, for example, needed a super-predictable routine and couldn't handle any flexibility until she hit about 3.

    • Regarding Debbie's comments on teething, this too shall pass. Having kids in bed with me/us was far preferable to having them cry a lot during the night and have them become "nocturnal". (The term I use for when your child is awake so much at night he starts sleeping during the day and being awake/crying at night on a consistent basis.)

      From my comparison of work (lots of R&D engineers and doctor couples) and church (lots of large, homeschooling families), the toddlers of energetic parents can be REALLY energetic. I expect that's why so many of these children go into careers that require lots of work with little sleep.

      One of Ferber's best notes is that if cry-it-out doesn't work in a week or two (things are getting better), it doesn't work. A friend who visited a sleep specialist for her 2 year old who was up 4-5 times/night (his whole life) and would cry for an hour or so was helpful because she understood this is NORMAL for 5-10% of children. Her husband is up multiple times each night and her first child slept like a log (as she does).

      Techniques can help, but someone has to be in the bottom decile of the distribution. Until you're through the teething stage with a couple years of perspective, you probably won't know about your child.

    • Tucker -- I am really curious what you mean by a firmer hand. Really. I wonder how one uses a "firm hand" at 5 am with an awake infant and tired but awake toddler. I can't imagine ignoring it to make it go away. Maybe everybody in the house got up so early it didn't matter? I just don't see how being stern/consistent about "you must sleep in the same room and be very quiet" works with the 8 month old set (and their siblings).

    • I love when parents brush off phases like its temporary and no big deal. However, realize that each age has several phases and they must be dealt with effectively. Brushing it over like no big deal isn't going to help raise kids to be good citizens. It becomes a bigger issue when you have a teen cursing at you, and they are already twice your size.

    • Saac - I'll be looking forward to hearing your update on how the party went! I may definitely steal some ideas for my son's next birthday. Are you going to do the Mentos in Coca-cola experiment?

    • Mamadoc,
      Perhaps Tucker meant it literally. A firmer hand applied to the bottom of the sleep-resistant child. And then there were all the chores, and the early rising. Somehow, I can't imagine that farm kids had or have sleep problems.

    • To Debbie D.: Not sure if your whole history here, but if she's a year old, maybe she no longer needs two naps during the day. Also, FWIW, we did cry it out with my non-sleeper. What got me past the "bleeding heart" part was the fact that when I went to her at night she stopped crying instantly and could happily and easily snuggle up and go back to sleep. To me, that meant there wasn't anything "wrong" with her (no underlying health issue, at least) and we just needed to help her learn to be happy without being picked up and snuggled. We did several things: white noise, lovey, consistent bedtime, calming pre-bed ritual, but in the end, cry it out was what worked.

    • DD was a horrible sleeper as a baby (reflux), and both DH and I have had insomnia at various points in our lives so sleep used to be a big issue on our house. We finally got DD into a fairly good routine as a toddler. It really is about trial and error with some kids. Ultimately, we found that letting DD listen to audio books or music at night helped her settle down befor falling asleep. We travel with an iPod for her because she has trouble falling asleep without something to listen to, but it usually isn't a big deal. The alternative was her wanting us to stay with her which wasn't working for DH or me.

      We also trained DD not to leave her room after lights out, which she is pretty good about. Unfortunately, this means that she still announces it whenever she gets out of bed to go to the bathroom, and she won't come to our bed if she has a nightmare. I've told her it is okay to just go to the bathroom without telling us, but I don't think she even registers that she is announcing it.

      When nightmares occur, I will go to her room whenever she calls me to comfort her. I suffered from horrible nightmares as a child, and like MiaMama was afraid of the dark. I still have very vivid dream and the occasional nightmare. Knowing first hand how real dreams can seem, I can't imagine not comforting DD when she is scared. She doesn't wake up often, but can have spells of a few nights in a row which is rough on me when it happens. Maybe I am too much of a softy, but DD knowing she is safe and that I am there for her when she is most afraid is worth losing sleep over.

      I saw an article a while back about kids who need less sleep when they are young continuing to need less sleep as they get older. Was that in the Journal last week? I know parents want to believe sleep issues will eventually go away, but some kids will continue to be night owls or early risers or wake up a lot during the night. Letting go of that can be hard, but once you do you can come up with solutions you can live with like being okay with them playing in their room alone for a while after you say goodnight, turning on the TV for themselves on a Saturday morning so you can sleep in, or even turning on a cd in the middle of the night if they wake up. On the flip side of this issue DD is convinced that my favorite thing to do in the whole world is to sleep because I like to sleep in late. She can't understand it at all because she feels like she is missing out on life when she is asleep.

      Finally, GaMom have your heard of Might be a good resource for learning a new language.

    • Doc - I suppose that I meant it literally and figuratively, but I was referring to the situation of small children sharing rooms, not a crying infant.

    • I can accept the idea that the lowest decile of sleepers will have extra problems staying asleep, but I'm not sure that necessarily means that they can't be taught to go back to sleep on their own.

    • Last night I realized that the Duggars are back for a new season. I'm not sure if those were the first episodes, but it was good to see them again. :)

      The oldest son and his wife now have two kids, and it was kind of obvious that his younger sister--maybe 11?--had been detailed as a mother's helper to her sister-in-law. My wife said "I could totally go for having a kid like that around here."

      I wonder what their solutions have been for sleep issues and room sharing.

    • I think the one thing that amazed me as a parent is how innate the parenting thing is - you really do know when something is wrong with your child. When Brownpup has been up in the middle of the night it has been due to a nightmare or illness. You kind of get that down pat. Bedtime issues are usually, with the exception of a few issues, nothing more than behavioral and that is just as much due to parental behavior as it is the child's.

      The nights Brownpup has been really bad about going to sleep are the nights I have dialed it in and given an inch when she's argued. My fault. I have truly known when she has been sick and that is why she was trying to stay up (or something was bothering her and she needed extra cuddling).

      Children need structure and discipline and I need to remind myself of that when I feel like I'm being cruel. Yesterday Brownpup threw a book at her teacher. Yes, you read that right. She is 6. I am horrified and embarrassed. Instead of anything fun after homework, she had to write an apology to her teacher (and the girl she hit with the book that prompted the book throwing). Her teacher made her sit out of a fun activity which I agree with. But she also got lots of cuddles last night to know she was loved still. She wanted to quit first grade last night and was upset, so sleep was rough. But she got there.

    • Tucker, I looked at the Veracruz, and my BFF has one. They're nice, but more that what I need.... too big, too nice, too pricey. The Santa Fe was perfect in every way except looks.

      I'm looking to strike the balance between having something nice enough to drive a client to lunch in, but not so nice that I will cry when my 2-year-old does typically destructive toddler-like things to it. Or when I clip a curb. Not that anything like that has ever happened before (eye roll).

    • The Duggar family hierarchy is fascinating.

    • My son was born when my daughters were 4 1/2 and almost 2. They started sharing a room about a month before he was born. At first it was really bad as they got used to each other's noises. We got a white noise machine that you could leave on all night. That helped a lot and we used it for a couple of years. Even so, for a long time a parent had to stay in the room until at least one kid was asleep or keep one kid out of the room at first. After my eldest learned to read, you could put them both to bed at the same time but let the one read with a book light for 20 minutes or so. Otherwise she would just keep talking to her sister. Currently we have a 6 month old with the 9, 6, and 4 year olds. We moved the 4-yr-old in with his sisters temporarily while we work on the baby sleeping well. But we have to put him to bed first so that he's asleep before his sisters come in. He's actually a great sleeper but if he has sisters to distract him from the process, things don't work so well. So we usually put him to bed around 7:15, the girls by 7:45 or so, with the oldest one reading with a book light until about 8:30. Sadly the eldest is a bit of a night owl so she's often still awake for another hour or so after that. But at least the younger two are done and she rarely wakes them. The baby usually sleeps all night at this point but we're not confident enough of that to put the 4-yr-old back in with her yet

    • Aaron - While I disagree with a number of the ways they live their values, I have a lot of respect for them. From a purely entertainment standpoint, I love watching their show. Actually, I'd love to have them come visit for a weekend, maybe the next time they want to go to D.C.

    • Tucker - I helped with my younger cousins from age ten on...learnt how to hold them, give them the bottle and play with them (was not allowed to lift them and walk around). So, I guess in effect I was a mothers helper for a lot of years.

      Good training when my own kids came along...

    • There have been a couple of comments above that struck me - I don't remember who said what. Someone seemed to think that 5 min of crying by a 3 year old was a lot at bedtime. It is not and it is not child abuse to wait quite a bit longer. The camera again is a good idea - I think you can find ones that transmit in low light to reassure yourself. Also a baby or toddler who is up at 5am on occasion and can't settle back down doesn't have a sleep problem - he just woke up early. If it persists and is not on your household's rhythm, you do what you can with blackout shades and later bedtimes. At worst the parents tag team it - one moves to an earlier schedule for a while. If one kid always wakes up the other in a shared room situation - that is a good reason to keep one in a hall or closet or office for a while. These things work themselves out eventually.

    • So what time are people really putting their kids to bed? I work full-time and want to see DS, so I start bedtime routine at 8:30 and he's asleep by 9, though this sometimes creeps to 9:30. I have friends who think this is crazy and that kids need to go to sleep by 7:30 or 8.
      My DS is 2.5 years old.

    • @GaMom (if your language question is still kicking around): I am a language person and I pick them up easily. I have used the Pimsleur tapes (then) in my car to and from work; I would imagine they are available by download to ipod now. What do you need 'as much as you can learn?' for? if it's just routine tourist travel then Pimsleur level 1 & 2 will do you fine and you can repeat as much as you like whenever you are driving. After you use those, get whatever your library has to add variety.

    • Tucker - It is most assuredly a team effort. But the elder Duggars do an admirable job of raising that many children to be, to all outward appearances, "normal". For sure not the most progressive lifestyle though. I find it interesting they hold no pressure on their children to have a large family themselves, though it appears the oldest son is well on his way.

    • Anon - depends on your family's routine - some in my family have a very late bed time for their kids but they also allow their kids to wake up later or make up for the sleep at nap time. If your child is not irritable and whiny do what suits you best.
      However, once your child becomes school age you will need to put them to bed at a certain time so that they can wake up fresh for school - elementary schools start early and you don't have the option of a flexible drop off time like day care.

    • Our daughter goes to bed between 6 and 6:30, or sometimes earlier if she is tired. It sucks when one of us has to work late and we miss her in the afternoon, but that is the schedule she is happiest. We tried moving bed time closer to 7 a few weeks ago, had all sorts of problems with her sleeping all night and having nightmares, so we moved bed time back and it's been smooth sailing.

    • Aaaron - The oldest son is the only one on the show who annoys me, and yeah, he's well on his way. I'm not the type of person who screams that the parents are "denying their older kids a childhood," but I do think that a little more balance to their lives is in order (in my opinion at least). The older girls are ALWAYS mothering their younger siblings, they're ALWAYS cooking or cleaning or folding laundry. Whenever they take a trip, which is like every other episode, they're always the ones showing off how organized they are at packing everything. Honestly, Jim Bob seems kind of worthless on the childcare front, and Michelle doesn't even seem to do a whole heck of a lot herself.

      I also think that their education is a joke.

      So, maybe I don't respect them quite as much as I thought. It's fun TV, though.

    • @ anon 3:11 - Until this week, we started the bedtime routine for our nearly 21 month old at 6:00. Sometimes it starts with a bath otherwise it is brushing teeth, change diaper/pajamas, bottle, books, bed. This week we have started having him stay up until 6:30. I'm a huge fan of "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Kids". He really advocates earlier bedtimes lead to more sleep, and we see that in our son. For a long time we were starting the bedtime routine around 5:30 because DS was exhausted. He usually sleeps until 6:30 or 7:00.

      We haven't started sleep training with DS #2 who is 2 months old. We'll probably wait until at least 4 months. I can't wait to have both kids asleep for the night by 7 or so!

    • @anon - I generally get home by 7, and almost immediately start bedtime routine with DD (pj's, bottle, story, bed) so she is asleep by 7:30. Is this ideal from my perspective? Absolutely not - I get minimal time with her during the week. However, I know that it's best for her to go to sleep by that time. She sleeps straight through til 6:30am. On nights where she has gone to bed later, she still wakes up at 6:30 the next morning and is cranky and out-of-sorts.

    • Yes, the Duggars are pretty interesting. Whatever you may think about their religious and parental decisions, it certainly looks like they have raised nice, responsible, respectful, thoughtful, hardworking children. And the mom stays so calm through all of it.

    • The simple approach really is the best, but I’m guessing the experts sell more books if they make them longer than two sentences.

      Also,. people don't go out and buy a book if the regular common sense approaches work. It's mostly those who are at their wits end that go out and seek books and professional help.

    • "Also,. people don’t go out and buy a book if the regular common sense approaches work."

      In this case, I disagree. I think many of the parenting-book-buying demographic insists on believing that there ought to be a better way than what common sense dictates.


      Maybe she experienced a night terror:


      As I understand it, It has to do with the system that locks out motor control during REM sleep.

    • I've had to make a decision about more time with DS at night (5:30 - 9pm slot) v morning (6:30 - 8am slot). I basically choose more time at night, because we are playing and reading, whereas in the morning it seems like it''s just frantic getting-ready time, regardless of when it starts. Also, it's nice if DS wakes up on the late side so I can take my shower before he's up. I suppose it would be nice to have a child be in bed at 7:30, as I could exercise or do work, but then I'd never see him!

    • A son, Tucker - it is much easier at that moment to give into your child, than hold hard and fast to what was decided and endure shorter term pain for the longer term good.

      DS was sleeping in his own bed in his room but when DD came and I was busy with her, DH started bringing DS into our bed rather than insist he go back to his bed. It took me a very long time to make DS go back to his bed.

    • @ UpstateNYdad - thanks, I will try those. I probably *need* almost none of the new language, poor choise of words by me, but I would like to see how much I could pick up before we go. I share that trait with you, so this is more of a fun challenge than an actual necessity.

    • Ugh - *choice*

    • Seattle Soccer, yep we're doing the Mentos thing, along with running an obstacle course "ameoba" style (3-4 kids bungie corded together at the waist) & polymer worms from a Steve Spengler kit. I hole that's enough for half an hour. I'm counting on the drink-mixing, dry ice cream-making, lava cake extravaganza to take another half hour.

      Lestages, where do you get that fizzing stuff? My grocery store doesn't have it.

    • Speaking of buying advice books, does anyone have a recommendation for a book about how to handle/support/help a spouse who is struggling with depression? My spouse is functional, but moderately depressed, and has been for 2+ years and refuses therapy of any kind.

    • Charlotte, Tucker,

      True - but I've also noticed that parents have a wide variety of trigger points and for many, the kids know enough to avoid those trigger points. If something really bothers you, it wont happen. If - in your heart of hearts - it doesn't really bother you - it is likely to happen.

    • My brother is part of a group of large families in Missouri who subscribe to a philosophy of child rearing similar to the Duggars. In terms of education, I would guess the children perform well above the average for their local Arkansas public school system. Relatively few people leave the Ozarks and move to Boston to join A Son's demographic. I lived in rural Kentucky for a few months and have lots of friends with engineering/math graduate degrees.

      As I get older, I realize that most people do fine with the ability to balance a checkbook and read the newspaper. Competency beyond eighth grade level isn't sought by the lower half of the fundamentalist Christian demographic.

    • *hope

    • @3:10. Enjoy it while you can! In a few years your child's school will dictate wake up, bedtime and therefore evening & maybe afternoon schedules for the household with absolutely no flexibility!

    • West Coast - Assuming you and your brother did not grow up in the type of family that he now has, what do you think pushed him to adopt that lifestyle?

      Do you ever visit them with your family? If so, are there any tensions or issues about different values?

      And finally, as a minor point, I'm not following the logic here; the second sentence doesn't seem to follow the first one:

      "Relatively few people leave the Ozarks and move to Boston to join A Son’s demographic. I lived in rural Kentucky for a few months and have lots of friends with engineering/math graduate degrees."

    • As I get older, I realize that most people do fine with the ability to balance a checkbook and read the newspaper. Competency beyond eighth grade level isn’t sought by the lower half of the fundamentalist Christian demographic.

      Portia mentioned the other day the decline in upward mobility. I can't help but think that much of that is driven by folks who have no interest in moving upward.

    • Saacnmama -- Have you considered starting a children's birthday party business? You could specialize on nature or science parties. People used to suggest I start a business when I would throw my kids' parties, but I never really had an interest.

    • I wonder if longer working hours have affected bedtimes for young children. It can be hard to get kids down at 6 - 6:30 when mom and dad don't leave the office until 7. Food for thought.

      My DD never slept through the night until 21 months and 10 days, the day after she got her last molar. After that? It was like a switch went off and she turned into a rock star sleeper, plus two hour consistent naps. And that had NEVER happened before. My DS is restless all night, sleeping deeply for the first 4 - 5 but then waking in between REM cycles usually every hour after that. He has eczema and itches constantly. Plus he's a night sweater, like my husband, and is drenched most of the time. My husband literally goes to bed with a towel.

    • Clarification: I meant that I was unusual in both having lived in rural Kentucky (so knew people from that demographic) and in having a few dozens friends/acquaintances with graduate degrees in science and engineering (a different demographic). Relatively few people have close relationships across those demographics. (I left my computer and my children were creating chaos during post composition- sorry for the poor writing.)

      My brother adopted the lifestyle because of our religious beliefs (Christian) and because he liked the community and sense of order in those families. He's an engineer and his wife is a former teacher so they are not in the "less-educated" half of the demographic. I haven't visited since his wedding 2 1/2 years ago but they are expecting their second child next month and seem happy. They haven't faced the life issues (medical bills, primarily) that lead me to reject that lifestyle as too risky. My other two siblings and I just accept that if our parents need financial help in old age, he won't be helping to provide it.

      They're part of the demographic mentioned yesterday, who earn ~$60k and pay little or nothing in federal income taxes. However, their children will likely be hardworking, responsible and not entitled. Some kids will join the military. Most children from those families will not wind up in the criminal justice system. It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. I have a graduate degree in engineering, and it's not doing me a bit of good. :)

    • " I have a graduate degree in engineering, and it’s not doing me a bit of good."

      I'd have to imagine that when your kids are all in school, if you wanted to pursue it, you'd be in high demand as a high-school science or math teacher, even (or especially) in a rural area. Extra cash, good benefits, reasonable hours...

      I know that everyone is going to say "you have no idea how tough it is to become a teacher right now!" but the economy will turn around at some point.

    • saacnmama-I'll be asking for ideas for my son's next bday. He is only a few months older than yours.
      It's been interesting reading about getting kids to bed and/or asleep. For the most part we haven't had any real issues getting him to bed just developed bad habits. For instant I can't just send him to bed on his own, he doesn't like the dark even with a night light. It works for me I will rub his back then leave and we're fine. I have felt bedtime should be relaxing and peaceful, not yelling at kids. I think you do what you are comfortable with and works for the family. My son usually went to bed between 8 & 9 as a toddler. He wasn't sleepy at 7. He's also an early riser. Still is. I remember still being scared sometimes as a young teen because the house would settle since it was an older home. I always thought someone was trying to break in.

    • A Son - I was wondering when somebody would mention night terrors! My daughter had them from the age of one-ish through two-and-change. AWFUL. So terrifying and, frankly, mysterious. Our pediatrician told us it was normal, but, once mobile, she would run around our apartment (much to our neighbors' delight, I'm sure), screaming, writhing on the ground, etc. She'd go months without one then, bang!, three nights in a row. They stopped entirely when she was around three, but what a horrible stretch that was. The recommendation, for those interested, was to rouse the child around ten or eleven at night so that they didn't get into the in-between state A Son described.

      As to sleep habits, I think so much depends on the child. Our daughter has her ups and downs - months of great sleep and an easy bedtime, and then there'll be a stretch of neediness around bedtime. We did everything wrong with our son, sleep-wise, i.e. co-slept when he was an infant, had him in our room with us (kids couldn't share a room because of the night terror debacle), etc., and he sleeps perfectly. I do think it's too pat to say "In our house, kids listen when we tell them to go to sleep!" That's fabulous for you if it's your house, but I do think some kids as individuals need more comforting than others, in sleep and other matters.

    • We "Ferberized" our kids when they were young and it worked well. The initial crying was hard, but they did learn to put themselves to sleep and gained some small sense of power over themselves. Unfortunately, my kids who slept well through the night hit high school and then had so much work to do that a civilized bedtime went out the window. I am now regularly asleep before my DD, who is stil up doing homework. Once kids reach puberty their circadian rhythms change and they can't go to sleep earlier. So you end up with an exhausted teenager also going through puberty with all the crazy hormones that go with it--and still a pile of homework to tackle. I long for the days of cranky two year olds, who can't drive, don't date, and are in their rooms sleeping at a civilized hour! The start of the new school year and the amount of work an I.B. diploma requires have obviously already gotten to me, and I am not the one doing the work, just putting up with it. I won't even start on the whole SAT test prep stress added to this routine. Enjoy your babies. Being sleep deprived won't last, and at least they are always safe and sound at home.

    • Night terrors can also happen during the day after a nap. DS would have them, there's not much you can do except keep them safe. When he finished, he was wide awake and act as if nothing happened but mom was exhausted.

    • My second son had night terrors. They are very scary, and different from a nightmare in that you cannot wake the child.

    • If the parents are upset and exhausted in the morning, it is a night terror. If the child is, it is a nightmare. (Ferber paraphrase, I believe).

    • A regular experiment in Cal Poly SLO's Chemistry Magic Show is to have kids from the audience taste orange juice, grapefruit juice and then lemon juice. The kid's reactions would indicate the increasing acidity. Then they would add baking soda to each juice and that would also foam up based on acidity.

    • get a Chemistry Textbook, snuggle down w/ them, and start reading. Five, ten minutes top. Fast asleep.

    • Thanks SB!! Sounds like a perfect time-filler to have in my back pocket, esp in vase of rain.

    • UGH! I can't believe I missed this discussion! Sleep issues are my forte, after dealing with them for 19 months...

      Mamadoc - hahha! That's hysterical.

    • GAMom -- if you're learning more for fun than because you absolutely have to get to a certain level of competence, podcasts that you listen to in the car might be a good solution. I've used ChinesePod, as well as the former FrenchPod and ItalianPod (no longer recording but old episodes still available), and also the JapanesePod101 series. ChinesePod et al. I've liked well enough to use the paid model, and JapanesePod101 I do the free version, and all of those I've found good for what I'm looking for (basically something where it can just come up in my mix of podcasts while I'm commuting, and for the lessons at a given level it doesn't matter what order I listen to them in). The ___Pod101 series has more different languages than the ___Pod series, and of course a google for '____ language podast' will get you additional results. You can also get some audio book language learning stuff from Audible. And I second the recommendation for LiveMocha, and also if your language is French or Spanish you can do vocabulary on

      Re sleep -- for those that do sleepy music at bedtime, you can make a good sleepy music station on Pandora which will then be available anywhere with internet and speakers. You could, for instance, start with this track!/music/song/michael+stearns/st+francis and let the child it's intended for give additional definition to the station by choosing which tracks to give a thumbs up (or down).

      My daughter, who's usually good about going right to sleep at bedtime, had a funny exception to that rule the other day. She started reading Ruby Red right before bedtime (very enthralling book) and when my husband noticed her light was on as he was heading to bed around 11, he found her asleep but still holding the book open over her face.

    • Thank you ratgirlny for your comments - very close to what I think it should be done

    • Marilyn,I broke my hubsand of the blanket snatching habit during the first two years of our marriage. I tend to get cold at night, so no one wants to deprive me of a blanket! And yes, I loved the movie, too!


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