Saturday, January 19, 2013

Fringe: Season 5 Episode 12 Liberty & Episode 13 - An Enemy of Fate

Hello Fringe fans!  Welcome to our final recap of this wonderful show that we were treated to for 5 years.  I'm still working out some confusion from some of the events that transpired in our final 2 hours.  But overall, WOW!  What a great send-off for this show!  So many great scenes to wrap up character arcs and even provide a few more answers along the way.  And in the end?  It ended just like we thought it would 12 episodes (or more) ago.  But the fun was getting there.  Lots to discuss since we have 2 hours to cover, so we'll get right into it!

Episode 12 - Liberty
When last we left our heroes, they had lost Michael who willingly got off the train and got caught by Windmark and his cronies.  They had to devise a plan to get him back, which involved getting Broyles involved.  (Confirmed as THE DOVE, though he made a joke on the color of his skin by saying he's more of a raven.  Nice one, Broyles!)  Broyles tricked a Lt. Loyalist into giving up the location of the boy as Fringe division needed to protect the asset.  

Meanwhile, Michael was winning his interrogation by causing all sorts of bloodiness to Windmark.  I was enjoying every minute of it!  He never leaked the plan.  But they ended up doing diagnostics on him and learned of his incredible mind and abilities.  Windmark took this information to his boss in 2609.  He ordered the disassembly of Michael to learn what they could from him to evolve their race. 

When they learned the interrogation center is on Liberty Island and was impenetrable, Olivia suggested that they utilize the Alternate Universe to cross over and get to the Island there, cross back to the blue-verse, cross back and then escape and cross one final time.  The problem?  Olivia lost all of her cortexiphan after Walter fired the "bullet that saved the world" into her head.  The cortexiphan burned away healing her wound and popping out that bullet.  But she was willing to get more injected into her.  Walter thought that this might work temporarily, and with just enough time to accomplish the mission. 

Of course, this led to many references to some great season 2-4 stuff.  They used the window to the other universe to ensure that everything was fine and dandy over there and there was no observer takeover.  Mission accomplished!  They went to one of Anil's safe house to start administering the cortexiphan shots.  Whew, that was an intense few minutes.  Of course, we knew it would work but they had us biting our nails anyway.  Each injection into Olivia's spine caused her to have some massive side effects, including seeing Peter glimmer once more. (nice callout to season 2!)  

While Olivia was recovering, Walter and Peter had one of their several emotional moments.  They spoke of sacrifice and how they are both familiar with it.  Peter called Walter Dad once more.  We could tell Walter wanted to tell Peter about what he'd have to do, but then he did not.  Instead, they woke up Olivia and essentially told her she has 3 hours and 4 minutes to accomplish the mission.  Walter warned her that she would experience some crazy stuff with each jump as it will burn the cortexiphan.  They mentioned she might experience lapses in time.  

They took her to where Fringe Division should be in the other universe and Olivia crossed over without any difficulty.  She had finally perfected her skills of using cortexiphan!  Once she got over there, there were warnings all over the place of a breach.  And what do you know?  Fauxlivia and Lincoln Lee of our universe were right on top of things!  So awesome that we got to see them one more time!  (and now we totally know why Seth Gabel was at the celebration of the 100th episode aka series finale, even though he technically was only in the 99th episode!)  Lots of emotional catching up happens and we'll discuss their "happy ending" stories in the section below.  When Olivia was explaining her plight, she started experiencing her time lapses and saw child Etta standing before her.  She knew her time was short so they got moving to Liberty Island.  Best line of the whole story arc?  Fauxlivia says to Lincoln, "Stop looking at my younger ass!".  Ahh good times.  

Anyway, once in an appropriate section of Liberty Island, Olivia crossed back over but was starting to get caught between both worlds.  She was still able to spot an Observer or 2 and take them out.  And when she almost got caught, she remembered to use some of her ability to summon electricity and do crazy telekinetic stuff!  It was pretty darn, what would Walter say, COOL!?   She got to Michael before any dismantling could happen and Michael let out a smile.  awwww!  There was a reason for why he did all of this, and clearly he accomplished his mission.  (I'll explain later.  I'm sure others caught on faster, but it took me some processing!)    

Olivia and Michael escaped our universe before getting snatched by some observers.  But they crossed over with her and almost killed her.  Thanks to Lincoln and Fauxlivia having her back, she didn't perish!  Instead they kicked some Observer butt!  Lincoln stayed behind to take down any observers that showed up to go after them.  Fauxlivia brought Olivia and Michael to Battery Park where Olivia would return to Peter, Walter and Astrid.  Success!!  So glad we got to see OVER THERE one last time!  I always had a feeling we would. 

Windmark puts 2 and 2 together and realizes that someone must have leaked the location of Michael.  He calls on his Luitenant.  He rats out Agent Broyles, who he thought had been cleared by Windmark. Oh boy! 

While all of this was happening, we watched September/Donald in the the lab creating the time travel device.  It was a lot bigger than I anticipated!  He attempted to power up the device and it glowed with the appearance of success.  However, the generator fizzled out and was a key piece to the puzzle.  September went to visit an old friend.  Who was it?  DECEMBER!!  September told him that they have the boy, Walter is back and there's something he needs December to do.  You owe me.    END of FIRST EP

Episode 13 - An Enemy of Fate

We open right where we left off with September and December in deep discussion.  September needs the trigger and needed December to go get it from the future.  December talks about ceasing to exist and September discusses how all 12 of the science team fell in love with this era.  They all experienced emotions that they agreed to speak nothing of.  But August and September lost control.  (nice pulling August back into the fold from the awesome season 2 episode of the same name.  He died in place of a girl that was supposed to die whom he saved instead.)    They discussed how they didn't know the true nature of their assignment.  September thinks the people of this era are worth saving even if it requires sacrifice.  

Broyles was updated that they got the boy.  But he would soon be in some trouble of his own.  Windmark was onto him.  Broyles started clearing files from his computer (or transferring them to bring with him maybe).  Meanwhile, Windmark worked on a wire tap into Broyles's communication device(s).  Surely, it was no coincidence that Broyles (aka Lance Reddick aka Lt. Daniels) ended up on THE WIRE!  Broyles and Windmark do have an encounter here and The Dove is discussed.  But Broyles is essentially let go.  It was a classic Star Wars move.  Put the tracking device in the car and lead the bad guys right to the rebel base.  But Broyles was our very own Princess Leia and knew he was being tracked.  He decided to drive them off the trail and keep them busy for awhile.  

Meanwhile our heroes meet up in the lab with September and discuss malfunctioning machine.  They talk about how all of the pieces would work together.  The objective is to generate a singularity, a wormhole.  One cylinder would be sent through to 2167.  The electro magnet would act as a launch platform.  The scrolls would be used to set the device to locate the precise date and location.  Peter knew they would need a synchroscope (I think), which Walter comically said "I would have thought of that!"  He knew they would need to drill through the amber to get to his.   

September mentions that Michael always has a reason for what he does.  We would just have to wait for that reason. 

Olivia and Astrid went to December's apartment to retrieve the trigger, but December was found hung and killed.  I thought it was suicide at first, but it would seem that Windmark ordered the tracking of all remaining 11 observers (August was dead) in case one of them tried to travel back to the future.  They caught December right when he tried to retrieve the device.  From this they figured out what our Fringe team was trying to do with the boy. 

Peter continued drilling for the scope thingy and found a syringe which Walter claimed to not know what it was.  He also found a video tape addressed to him.  At this point, I braced myself for tears!  I had to rewatch this video after the episode ended to make full sense of it.  But basically, Walter made this video in 2015 knowing what the outcome of the plan was intended to be.  He mailed a letter to Peter and knew that he would come to the lab to find Walter and ask him what it meant, but Walter would be erased from existence.  He is now living many years from now and Peter will never see him again.  This was to ensure the future of our humanity.  The future of Olivia, Etta.   They had stolen their time together.  Walter cheated fate to be with him.  But he wouldn't change it for the world.  He wouldn't say goodbye, but he did say that he loved Peter.  

Off-Video, Walter took over explaining the video and the syringe.  It is an inoculation for time travel.  Walter already took one back in 2015.  The extra was in case he didn't survive.  We already know why Walter was willing to be the one to go.  It was to make up for all the harm he caused the universe(s) with his hubris, his experimentation, his "cheating of fate".  In that sense, this is the perfect way for Walter's arc to end.  The confusion, of course, is the paradox.  We can discuss it more below, but essentially the reset point would be in 2015 when the Observers were supposed to invade, not back in 1985 when September first interfered with the timeline.   So the observers did exist in the past, but they don't exist anymore.  Hence, paradox.  Nature abhors paradoxes, and the timeline needs to heal itself.  So Walter and Michael will disappear from the timeline immediately at the reset point and they will live their remaining days out in 2167.   Maybe there won't be much else to discuss below.  But, here's how I see it.  It pretty much makes about as much sense as Future Walter's time travel plans in the 3rd season finale.  Don't we have that timeline's version of Astrid and Emma and maybe Peter and Walter living out their days back in one of the prehistoric eras to plant pieces of the machine all over Pangea?   When all is said and done, I'm willing to go with it because it makes the story they wanted to tell work.  But, it certainly is confusing if you try to apply logic to it!   Plus, Walter is the mad genius scientist.  Maybe he found a way to figure out how to apply a reset point in time!  We should note that Michael did watch this whole emotional discussion between father and son.  Maybe he had something to do with figuring out the reset point to ensure all went to plan.  Maybe there will be a movie about it!  

Anyway, it was quite an emotional scene and probably the best quote of the episode was in it.  I threw it down in my Walterisms for one "non funny" quote for a change.  

While all of this was going on, Broyles continued to lure the Observers off the scent.  He got out of his car and we got a chase on foot.  Of course, the observers cheated and just "appeared" right in front of Broyles and caught him.  We got yet another interrogation with Windmark, but Broyles kept him out of his head just like Etta taught him.   Windmark did explain that he was affected by humans as well and began to feel emotions.  But he feels hate.  Loved Broyles saying "The feeling is mutual!" 

Back in the lab, Olivia shares with the team that the trigger is a no go.  So, a lot of the episodes this season ended up being rendered useless!  Astrid comes up with the genius idea (according to Walter) to use one of the Observer shipping lanes as a window to the future.  They would still need to send the beacon to the appropriate time, but I guess maybe they'd use one of the cubes for that?  They found a shipment scheduled for the next morning in New York.   Peter and Olivia geared up to go get the cube and maybe something else.  Before that happened, September had a chat with Peter that he would go in place of Walter to the future giving us a slight moment of hope that Walter may get to stay with his family. 

Astrid took this opportunity to have an emotional goodbye with Walter in the amber.  Guess who they found, who I hoped would make a cameo in the finale?   GENE!!!!  He's still alive!!  Astrid didn't want to de-amber him for fear that the observers would hear the mooing.  Hysterical!  Astrid mentioned how this wasn't the end. That they would soon be drinking Strawberry Milkshakes in the lab and won't even remember this.   Walter, finally, told her, "It's a beautiful name.   Astrid."  Even though I knew it was coming, it was still quite emotional.  I think Walter had called her by her real name before once, but this was the most meaningful.  

Walter and September had a discussion before the final battle as well.  September discussed his plans to go in place of Walter. (he took the remaining inoculation   Walter was ready though and angry with September for taking this from him.  But September discussed the love that he finally experienced for his son, which he couldn't experience when they first came up with the idea.  He said he can't communicate with him in traditional ways but he'll know that he loves him when he takes his hand.  Walter essentially agreed to September taking his place.  

Peter and Olivia had one last moment to discuss how they would soon have Etta back.  He gave "the bullet that saved the world" back to Olivia for this final battle.   They kissed and then met with Anil's contact.  It was time to invade Observer HQ for a cube.  They popped on gas masks and threw into the ventilation system pretty much every Fringe event we can remember from the prior seasons.  Creatures coming out of stomachs, some of them seeing those crazy butterfly things, worms coming out moths, people becoming over hydrated, heads exploding.  Oh it was great stuff!  Windmark, of course escaped yet again.  But in the process of getting the cube they found an extra gas mask and Broyles!  Loved Peter's line, "you're lucky there is absolutely no ventilation in this room.  Trust me."  Good times!  
Lots of Fringe Memories in these Canisters! 

Loved this shot as a reference to the infamous glyphs! 

The rest of the team was set up with the time travel equipment and waiting for Olivia and Peter's go ahead.  And then the final battle began!  They drove down the barricade to the shipping area.  guns were firing all over the place.  Observers began floating from Walter's special bullets.  September activated the cube and the door opened.  They activated the magnet and sent the beacon through the doorway.  Windmark showed up in front of Michael before he could get out of the car and to the doorway.  Peter went after windmark and they vanished together.  As they fought, Olivia and Astrid both got involved.  But Windmark was too much of a match for them all.  He got a chokehold on Olivia and sent her flying.  The "bullet" fell out of Olivia's pocket and gave her all the motivation she needed to channel her last round of cortexiphan in her system.  We saw the power being drained from the Manhattan skyline and objects starting to move towards her.  And then Windmark got smashed to death between 2 cars!  BOOM!!!!  That's what I'm talking about!   At this point, just as Michael did earlier when Olivia asked why Michael smiled when she saved him and what to do next, he pressed his finger to his lip.   Yep, Michael knew that Olivia would need cortexiphan in her system before this battle was over.  So, he got off the train and made her concoct a plan to come and save him.  He always has a reason.  Pretty awesome! 

September grabbed Michael and said it was time to go, but before they could make it to the doorway, he was shot in the crossfire.  NOOOOO!!!!! Michael sat down next to him and pulled out the music box that plays "What Child is This?/Greensleeves" Of course, before we had a chance to mourn September (RIP by the way) we knew what this meant.  Walter looked at September for a brief moment and then knew what he had to do.  He looked at Peter, and we knew Peter wanted to object but that there was no other way.  It had to be done.  Peter mouthed the words, "I Love You, Dad."  We all started to well up, just as Astrid and Olivia did too.  And just like Walter holding hands with young Peter and crossing through a doorway started this whole mess back in 1985, Walter would hold hands with another young boy and cross through a doorway to end his redemption arc in 2167. 

We see a shot of a dandelion.  It's 2015 again, there's Etta playing in the park with Olivia and Peter joking with her and smiling.  It's time to go.  Peter stands up asking for Etta to come to him and she runs.  And where there were observers before, there is just an embrace of father and daughter.  Time is healed!  Peter, Olivia and Etta drove home.  Peter brought in the mail and in it were 2 very important pieces of mail.  We'll only focus on one now.  It was addressed to him from Walter Bishop.  Walter wondered what he did with a certain piece of paper that he received in another timeline by yet another traveler through time who vanished forever.  Peter opened the letter and inside was THE drawing of the white tulip.  Walter's sign of forgiveness from God and of hope.  PERFECT.

Wow, what a perfect way to cap off this wonderful show.  Yes, as I mentioned, some of the time travel logic will perplex us.  But, as I've mentioned, we've questioned the time travel logic before.  It was there to serve the story and the story was good!  It was great.  This show went above and beyond the call of duty of trying to tie everything from previous seasons into one giant story with purpose.  And more often than not, they were successful in doing so.  I will surely miss this one, but we are left with one great legacy to Science Fiction.  With all of the characters still essentially alive, I could surely see them reunite for a movie one day.  But, it's not really necessary.  They told a great story and wrapped a big bow on it.  And for now, that works for me!  I hope the show finds many fans through the various outlets out there that it's coming to.   It's already on Amazon Instant Video.  It's coming to Netflix and the Science Channel is airing it in syndication.  But that's enough of my rambling on about my thoughts.  We still have a few more things to get through!  Let's dive into our extra thoughts one last time! 

Glyph Codes - LOVED & CLOSE - Well, it wasn't "Thank You" like I thought it would be.  But the words chosen are pretty appropriate for the final episodes!  All of these core cast members found love in the show.  But the bonds between Olivia and Peter, Peter and Walter come to mind the most.   September's love for his son.  Olivia and Peter's love for Etta.  It's a pretty open ended term, but LOVE was always at the center of Fringe.   And CLOSE?  Close to the end?  Or Close as in closing a book on Fringe.  It all works!   Thanks Fringepedia for the glyphs all of these seasons!  Snapping a picture is easy, but decoding glyphs is where the work really is! 

Observers Spotted - And then erased from existence! 

  • "Fudge Sticks!" - He exclaimed when he got shocked by the alternate universe mirror's power source.  

  • Walter's obsession with the bullets that would cause people to float was hysterical.  Peter asked why they would want the Observers to float.  "Because it's cool!"  And then when they actually used it, Walter yelled for Peter.  "I told you!  It's cool!!!"  Ahh that crazy Walter!  

  • At one point he was frustrated with the new wave communication devices they were using and he wished he still had one of those "tumor inducing cell phones".    
  • But yes, my favorite Walter quote of the night was when he told Peter, "You're my favorite thing".   Whew...waterworks! 

Food of the Week - Fudge Sticks and Strawberry Milkshakes! 

Things to note:
  • No visit to the Alternate Universe would be complete without showing some interesting details that hopefully will never happen over here.  We learned that Chelsea Clinton was running for President of the United States, and she's leading the race! 

  • Detroit was also voted safest city in America.  That's comical!  Of course, we all remember in that 1st awful future we visited in season 3, Peter asked Broyles, "Remember Detroit?".  They lost something big there, so this was probably a playful nod to it. 
  • As the scroll bar on the TV kept going, it said that Warner Bros. was planning a remake on Harry Potter.  Maybe a very old Terry Gilliam could finally get his shot!  Of course, maybe in the other universe, Terry DID direct the first Harry Potter and got the opportunity to create the world instead of Chris Columbus!  (Ahh, I love talking "Geek"!)  
  • We also learned that our Lincoln and Fauxlivia did eventually get together and have a child.  Olivia and Lincoln discussed how their lives turned out.  Olivia mentioned how she had no regrets for the decisions she made, but she is happy for Lincoln and how he turned out.  I guess in the time reset, we can assume they turned out the same way minus getting a chance to see Olivia one more time and help her out in the future.   

  • It would also appear that Fauxlivia, being behind a desk during their catch-up chat, was the new head of Fringe division!

  • We learned that Walternate retired, but was still alive at 90 and teaching at Harvard.  Awesome that he went back there.  
  • I'll admit it, I was very surprised that Leonard Nimoy did not make an appearance.  I know the man is retired, but they didn't even make reference to him in the finale.  We know he was ambered and in the future with them.  So what happened with him?  Obviously, he would still be back in 2015 again since things were reset.  But, I'll go on believing that somehow he was the scientist in 2167, possibly through the use of Soul Magnets and Walter and Bellie were reunited once again and decided to do something good for a change.  (maybe THAT'S your movie!) 
  • We had some questions over what we learned last week about Observers not having romantic interests in women, yet they were shown womanizing in our preview of the future last season.  (Season 4 Episode 19 "Letters of Transit")   I think what we learned was that all Observers started showing more human traits as a "side effect" of living amongst them.  Windmark called it an infection when it happened to the original 12 on the science expedition.  But then we saw them experiencing emotions as well.  So, I think we can call that answered.  
  • Time Travel Paradox - I thought I'd have more to discuss here, and maybe we will get into it in the comments.  But, that's the decision the writers went with.  I'm sure they knew what we would think when they brought up a time reset in THAT fashion.  Eliminating the observers from existence would wipe out the past as we knew it as well.  But, they chose somehow for the reset point to be in 2015 immediately prior to the observer invasion.  There's not much else to say about it, right?  We do know that Joel Wyman is not going into radio silence, so surely someone is going to ask him about that one.  I'd be happy to hear his reasoning.  
  • And one final note, literally.  In the mail that Peter brought in at the end, if you look above the White Tulip letter from Walter, there is an envelope intentionally placed in the pile with a message to fans that says, "Thank you for your support!"  Hmm, I guess they did find a way to say thank you in the finale! Thank YOU Fringe Team and Fox, which I will say again before this recap is over! 

But, I think most of the commentary on Fringe will be praise for what they accomplished.  It was most definitely the little show that could.  And it was fans like us who kept discussing it and kept promoting it that helped propel it to 5 seasons, even in the Friday death slot.  I can't tell you how many Fridays I annoyed my wife and friends by telling them I was not making any plans except staying in to watch Fringe.  And then Saturday mornings since my son has been born, when I'd sneak down to write a Fringe recap?  Oh, there have been some fun discussions in the Mike V. household!  I'll take this opportunity to mention that if any great show falls on a Friday ever again, I will not be recapping it the day after!  This was a special case! 

But, I just couldn't say goodbye to Fringe recapping.  It was that kind of dedication in the fandom that FOX was absolutely aware of and they honored it.  I'm sure there financial reasons to back it up as well (but I can't imagine many).   So, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank FOX for for once defying logic and seeing this show through to the end!   I'd like to thank our loyal readers who jumped over here from the LOST blog to continue reading and/or discussing another obsessive show with me.  It certainly wasn't as huge of an experience as LOST was, but it the show was definitely in the same realm of quality, I'd say.  And of course, thanks to my wife and son for putting up with me on these crazy Fringe Fridays (and Saturdays) as I continued my recapping madness.  I don't know why I do it, but I guess I enjoy it!  

So that's about it.  Not many shows left in the recap category.  We'll wrap up Walking Dead when it returns next month.  And then Revolution will return in late March.  I don't think I'll be taking on any new endeavors this season unless I feel the calling.  But, I have been enjoying our weekly discussion threads and will definitely keep that up for all non-recapped shows.  So, please join us!  

And with that it is time to mail our white tulips in for Fringe and call it a day.  I hope you enjoyed my ramblings over the 3 seasons of recapping.  Please stick around this site for more discussions on the great world of television.  And if our paths never meet again here, I'll see you in another universe or timeline! 


MJ said...

Wow - I have so many thing to say it's making me split in half !

As soon as I read on the tv guide articles that they wanted it to end with hope I felt we'd get our ending that we'd wanted - Peter and Olivia get to have young Etta all over again. Very happy with that.

Got Broyles again - yay ! Walter and Astrid had a moment - loved him admitting he knew her name a what a pretty one it was. And ye s- he had called her that only once before - I think the ep that we found out Olivia was pregnant?

Michael causing those nose bleeds and the broken vessel in Windmarks eye was crazy !

Keep saying that the Cdr seems very familiar - gotta look up who that actor is!

Nice that they even gave a happy ending to Lincoln and Fauxlivia ! Though I got nervous when baldies started showing up in their universe - thought they'd screwed up that side again. For one split second I thought that bullet was gonna save the world yet again and that she'd use her cortexiphan to somehow kill that baldie ! Walter stating that Bellie made sure the cortexiphan would ladt 127 years seemed very specific - but I couldn't figure that out.

So really it was all about dads in the end. Walter did what he did as a dad who loved his son. Peter had to let Walter do what he was gonna do as a dad to Etta. September wanted to take Walters place as a dad to do what he needed to do with Michael - very beautiful.

As soon as Walter said a baldie would float like a balloon I said 'we'd better see one' LOL. Agree - nice to reference August and see December. I liked finding out that Sept wasn't the only one of the first to visit to have issues - think I'd either forgotten or never realized that.

Sept has talked about people of 'this era' several time - wish I knew if he meant decade, century, etc ! Jus curious about that.

Ended up on The Wire - nice one ! Didn't pick up on it. But no - I did not think of Star Wars as that trick has been done in scads of movies long before Star Wars fanboys thought it as all about Star Wars. And to be fair - Broyles didn't figure it out - they left their gloves on the dash ! Just saying! ROFLMAO. I def got a Matrix vibe during the interrogation, also was that as X on the case to reference Xmen? Remember i thought of another homage but I can't remember now !

Loved that tape Walter left to Peter! Just loved it. I wasn't balling like the finale of Lost - but I had tears for sure. I enjoyed seeing the cow again - but it was also kinda creeapy ! ;-D

I long ago gave up trying to find logic with the whole machine thing - that our gang built the maching and in the past hid the pieces ! Ugh ! I'm just along for the ride and enjoying it and don't care about the machine. That machine and the whole guy in the bowling alley are the one thing that I now can say I don't like the way they tied ting up - and I'm ok with that.

MJ said...

Have to say that when Michael told them to sssh and Astrid spoke like 3 secs late my husband could not resist the opportunity to brag how women are incapable of being quiet. LOL I threw a piece of licorice at him for it ! ;-P

Yeah - I foolishly bought into Walter being saved and Sept being the one who goes.

Loved all the old Fringe events all going on at once - reminded me of the near to end of Cabin in the Woods with all the creatures coming out at once.

Loved the final battle scene but was confused - Windmark and Peter vanished - but appeared back only a few feet away? Awesome ending of Windmark though !

OMG - when Peter mouthed I Love You to Walter - I lost it! Loved the symmetry of Walter yet again leading a young boy into another time or dimension. I only wish he'd had a moment with Olivia! Like saying take care of my son or something. Then I would have been balling I tell ya.

Yes - you are right - Perfect is the word when Peter opened that envelope and got the tulip. I'm actually welling up just thinking about it. And thankiing us for our support on that other letter - just brilliant. They knew we'd see it.

Agree - don't care that all the time travel stuff might not have made sense. A great show and they def gave us a fab ending. This christmas I got the rest of the prior season and will probably re-watch all of it this summer - and I can't wait ! Theyreally did right by us fans. And hey Bill - pls share the link with us for Fox as I too would like to thankthem for staying with this show and allowing us this finale. I kept watching the beginning of the 2 eps to see if they'd sneak in a thanks or goodbye - but that's ok. The glyphs loved and close were probably sent to all the actors on the show.

Mike - great ending to our Observers Spotte segment ! LOVE IT ! Didn't even catch Fudge Sticks. Chelse Clinto rinning was great fun ! Missed the Detroit thing though, as well as the Harry Potter remake. Damn !

Hmm- interesting thought - when our time gets re-booted does the alt-verse also reboot? Oh god no - not going there ! LOL

LOL with Bell and you wanting to believe he's in the future.

Maybe we should find a way to mail tulips to all the show runners and Fox ! That would be so cool !

Again referencing the tv guide articles - they mentioned the 10 yr anniv Firefly panel and I think no one on this blog was a Firefly fan but that panel was just so awesome - I so loved that show! To think that Fringe could one day do this - it would just be fabulous.

Agree that Fringe was the little show that couldn't and love that Fox kept it around. But just one more time I'm gonna show my age and say that Babylon 5 was the first sci-fi show to defy the odds and stay the 5 years through time, day and network changes. And I hope that many other show we love get to do the same.

Thanks to you Mike - for 5 great years of reading your recaps ! Buy Shana (sp?) some tulips to thank her for putting up with it ! LOL She'll roll her eys that they are tulips - but love the gesture.

TheFollowing seems awfully re-cap worthy to me ! Doesn't HAVE to be the very next day - just saying ! LOL Just saying. They could be less in-depth recaps. LOL

Mike V. said...

MJ just letting you know I read your comments! Great stuff and I'll be sure to respond when I have some desk time! I'll be out all day today but thanks for reading and your comments!

Curt Sminkey said...

Well done as always, my friend. I gotta tell you I was a little disappointed as the ended was pretty much cut and dry unlike Lost. But I loved them both.

I never realized it till reading this recap but Walter first crossed over to the other side in 1985 and the observers first invaded in 2015. Two major years in another time-travel related movie. And I'm sure when Peter got the white tulip letter from Walter I wasn't the only who was thinking, "The Doc's alive! He's living in the old west but he's alive!"

Anonymous said...

Great recap Mike and I'll start by saying thanks for the recaps and forum and great job!

You've pretty much nailed everything in your recap.

I agree, seeing Windmark meet his match with Michael and then his ultimate demise at the "hands" of Olivia were two of the "feel good" moments of the night. (LOL) He was this show's Darth Vader.

Ditto on the floating bullets. It was also cool to see all the past fringe events used in the ventilation system. And the window into the other side. And Gene. And cortexiphan,, and and and... they really followed up on their promise to bring in aspects of the things from earlier seasons.

Wow, I watched both episodes twice before reading the recap and I did not make the connection that Michael gave himself up as a means to cortexiphanize Olivia. I couldn't figure out what the "shhh" sign (finger in front of mouth) meant.

I will point out what a bold choice the writers made in killing September in the last moments and forcing Walter to go into the future. They had set up a perfect way to let Walter stay behind. No one could blame the father (September) wanting to take his son. There is no way viewers could complain about that even though it would allow Walter to avoid his come-up-ance and be denied his redemption.

I too was shocked that Nimoy/Bell had absolutely no hand in any of this. Sorry but I can't leap to the conclusion that he's the scientist in 2160 (there was nothing to indicate that was the case).

My only complaint is that damn machine. It never got sent back to the past. I am also 100% in agreement that the logical reset date would be 1985, not 2015.

Also, would the future 2600 still be there but radically changed or was that time line totally erased? Peter was erased from the timeline and returned so maybe Observers will start popping out of Reiden Lake some day (LOL).

So I guess when the timeline was reset to 2015 all subsequent memories were lost. So Peter and Olivia would have memories of Walter right up to the moment of the reset and everything after is lost. They would just come home and Walter would be gone. No body, no explanation, just gone.

It will be interesting to see if some day this show has a Star Trek rebound. People may look back at this show and realize how great it was and wonder why it didn't get more respect when it was on. Oh yeah, I also missed the Thanks for your support" message on the envelope.

What a great ride and thanks to Fox for giving us a proper ending. Hopefully they will make a bundle in syndication over the next 20 years to make it all worth it.

Bill B

Also, the way things

Anonymous said...

Oops, didn't finish that last thought...
The way things are in the Fringe world anything is possible. If there were ever a movie I am sure they could write a way for Walter to travel back through time. After seeing the things he did with the technology in 2010 imagine what he could do with technology 150 years advanced. Maybe he will build a Delorean with a flux capicitor.

BIll B

Mike V. said...

Okay, I'm finally back to talk some Fringe! Probably won't be responding line by line like I usually do. You guys wrote a lot, which is AWESOME! lol Glad everyone was able to enjoy the finale and forgive some of the questionable science fiction resolutions like I was! lol Okay, let's chat.


Split in half, nice one! lol I had always assumed Fringe would end on a hopeful note. Every season finale (from 3 on, where they feared not getting renewed) ended with some message of hope. So, that's why I always kept thinking a reboot was the only way to recover from such a dismal future. But, of course, then I always would start thinking it's so obvious that maybe they'd go for something else. They sure didn't! lol But, the twists on how we got to that reboot were certainly interesting.

I think you're right that maybe he called her Astrid when we found out about Olivia's pregnancy. I thought it was earlier in the show's run, but that could be right!

When you mentioned the 127 years being very specific, I thought you were going to support my silly theory that William Bell was the "scientist" in 2167! lol The math obviously doesn't add up exactly though.

Good points with all of the Dad stuff. And definitely very nicely done in the show.

We definitely did not know anything about the other 10 observers showing emotion. We thought they were the ones after September (possibly the ones that shot him in season 4). At least I had thought that. But we definitely knew August showed signs of emotion too.

Not sure about the "era" September was referring to, and it probably was left vague intentionally. But, I'd assume this "modern" era we are in. Starting in 1985, thereabouts up to 2036 (well, if the observers hadn't come and destroyed it)

The Star Wars references were just there for a joke. Obviously, tracking device plots are always used in TV and Movies! lol But, this is a Sci-Fi recap, and most Sci-Fi fans love Star Wars! lol I totally missed the gloves on the dash!

Mike V. said...

Didn't notice the X on the case. But you're referring to the X-MAN on Fringe and not Marvel's X-Men, right? lol Maybe you did mean X-Men since you are talking homages! lol

I definitely wasn't bawling like the LOST finale either, but I certainly was welling up. That Poor Noble will never get recognized by the Emmys for his fantastic work!

The logic on the Machine always worked for me, but I just used it as an example of things that people always questioned. (well...the fact that the machine still existed when Peter didn't didn't make sense to me lol) .....but yeah, I can live with it not being perfect. And agreed, I thought Sam Weiss would be more important.

Hysterical on your husband's comment about women! lol And So true! :)

Why were you confused about windmark and peter vanishing and then reappearing? That's what observers do! They don't have to walk places, they just "apparate" (harry potter knowledge being dropped lol) And I guess because Peter came in contact with him, he moved right with him.

Good call on Walter and Olivia not really having a moment in the finale....would've been nice but I guess it worked without it. Maybe it was left on the cutting room floor and will be on the blu-ray! lol

I'm definitely planning on rewatching the show too at some point. Maybe it won't take me a couple years like it did with LOST!

For the Alt Universe stuff...don't worry..I didn't catch all that stuff just watching the ep. It's when I freeze framed the TV screen behind Fauxlivia to take screenshots! lol

Alt-verse getting rebooted?? I'm going to say no because the reset happened after they closed the bridge. lol The only thing that would change (which I mentioned in the blog) would be that Fauxlivia and Lincoln would not get to see Olivia like they did when she came to rescue Michael. That never would happen.

I think one summer when renewal was pending Kevin Reilly got mailed a bunch of White Tulips and he wasn't happy about it!! LOL But, yes, given how it ended that would be kind of cool! lol

I definitely heard about the 10 year Firefly reunion thing and would love that for "ANY" show that I've obsessed about! Here's hoping something like that could happen.

I know you loved your Babylon 5. lol And, I'm sure it was just as fun an experience getting to see it to conclusion.

And you're welcome for the recaps! When you say 5 years, I'm guessing you're including some of your LOST readings too since I didn't start Fringe until season 3! (And wow...I started LOST in I've been doing this for 7 years now??) But seriously, thank you guys for reading and discussing...that's what makes it worth doing!

I'm very scared that I'm gonna get sucked into The Following. But with Revolution being on the same night (eventually)....I just don't know. Plus...I think I may be winding down from my hardcore recapping days. I wasn't thinking of replacing Fringe with anything! It's just getting really tough to keep up with this stuff. But, we'll see what happens!

Okay, Curt and Bill next!

Mike V. said...

@Curt - Thanks buddy! I can definitely hear you on being disappointed. We all kept expecting a twist and it ended up going down as most of us thought it would. But, considering they wrote this one for the fans...I guess it makes sense that it would go down as we expected! lol

I do remember thinking about 1985 being a key Back to the Future date especially when Christopher Lloyd was a guest on the show. But, 2015 never even dawned on me. That's hysterical! And good call on the letter. Very good call!

@Bill - You're totally welcome and thank YOU for all of your comments as well!

Yeah, I still don't understand why he put the finger in front of the mouth (Michael). I guess it was just his way of communicating. Ironically, or maybe intentionally, there was a sign (I think it's in my screenshots) when Faux, Liv and Michael come to Battery has a child with a finger in front of his face making a shhhing expresion. I couldn't make the connection so I didn't bring it up in the recap! lol

Totally agree it was a bold choice to kill September and send Walter through. But it seemed the most you seem to agree as well. Throw the White Tulip in there and what it represents to Walter it's just perfection to end the show that way. Great stuff! I love the fact that Walter didn't have to die...he just had to go somewhere else....same effect but a little lighter and more hopeful (which is totally Fringe).

I'm mainly kidding about Bell being in the future. lol But...where did he vanish to at the end of season 4? And of course, did the Observers de-amber him in 2036?? Kill him like they did Simon? It's bizarre they didn't mention him. I'm sure Wyman will speak to that too when asked.

You still get hung up on the machine. Yes it DID get sent to the past!!! lol because that one future timeline sent it back millions and millions of years...every timeline that follows that one has the machine in it. the reset happened in everything that happened on Fringe from seasons 1-4 (Minus episode 19) still happened! lol And...well technically...season 5 still happened too and the white tulip is proof of that. BUt yes...we totally agree that the reset date should have been 1985....but it wasn't for whatever reason. I guess we can assume that some intelligent beings were still created...and maybe they too would have been interested in Walter/Peter's relationship...and Walternate STILL would have been distracted.

Mike V. said...

I saw some arguing that all of this was resolved by us being in the timeline where Peter doesn't exist. But that's not true...Walter still crossed in that timeline to save Peter...but Peter ended up dying in Reiden Walternate was still distracted by September. Peter just wasn't saved from drowning. Anyway....I'm sure there are ways to explain the reset...and I look forward to hearing from Wyman on that too.

Funny on Observers popping out of Reiden lake...We have to remember that Peter was returned to existence through LOVE. lol Observers were emotionally inept! But, yes I think the timeline totally gets wiped out (2600) so there's a NEW 2600 that moves in a different direction of intelligence. Probably one where Observers may get sent back in time but to study humankind, not to observer the best point in time to invade and take over. There would be no need because they probably didn't destroy the world in their present day (i.e. future).

Agreed on memories and how that would work. Now, I'm not sure if Peter knew the symbolism of the White Tulip when he looked at it....but, he would go to the lab and find that video that we got to see a sneak preview of in 2036. So Peter would see that exact video and know to some extent why Walter no longer existed in that timeline. hmmm....wait a video would NOT be there. There would have been no reason to record it!

Oh man, here I go overthinking things. Maybe September and Walter hatched their plan "BEFORE" the invaders came. September showed up still in observer gear to Walter at the end of season 4 and said "They are coming"...they obviously did not come yet. That may have been in 2012 for all we know. So they had 3 years of planning for how they had to take down the observers. all of that planning would still happen because time wasn't reset yet. So Walter would have made the tapes and mailed the white tulip. He must have been preparing for the invasion in secret. This makes sense considering Peter and Olivia were totally taken by surprise in the park when they showed up. WOW, still figuring stuff out now!! lol Am I making any sense here?

There's always hope that Fringe will get that belated respect. I've definitely passed the show on to some family members who are watching it now and loving it. Only time will tell!

Absolutely agree that there are ways that a Fringe movie could happen one day. Seeing things like Arrested Development gain fans over the years and now it's coming back to Netflix for a season and then a movie??? That's crazy! Nothing is truly over these days. We have Fringe novelizations coming out this summer (prequel books...but there always could be sequel books or comics eventually). Plenty of stories to keep telling if they ever want to. It'll depend on how much profit something like that could render. If the show gets more popular in syndication, anything could happen. And nice call with the Flux Capacitor. I could see Walter hitting his head on a toilet! lol

MJ said...

Congrats Bill and Mike as both your teams head to the Big Game !

Actually was referring to both with the Xmen thing.

I don't know but Windmark was originally taking Michael and zapping away so I guess when he realized he had Peter - why would he bring Peter back to the battle ? Why not leave him somewhere else? Just thought it was odd.

Mike V. said...

Not to reference Star Wars again....but I would say Windmark's overconfidence was his weakness! :-) lol He wasn't going to flee in his moment of triumph!

And thanks....looking forward to the Harbowl and ring #6!!

Anonymous said...

Thanks Mike for the time you put into this.
I had been waiting for the finale for a while, telling my wife to not plan anything on Friday night. But as I watched the show I kept feeling like things are happening in a fairly predictable way. For me, I would like to have seen September make the crossing with Michael--that would have been surprising. And then to later to have something surprising like Peter disappearing back into his proper universe--but that wouldn't be a happy ending. Best I don't try to be a writer-LOL.

If the reset had been 1985 there wouldn't have been a Peter and Olivia with Etta. I think that's why it's 2015, to keep the love story in place.

A time reset in one universe should have some effect on the other if you want to maintain some level of symmetry between the two. Interesting to see a grey haired Fauxlivia when Olivia crossed over. But Olivia had been frozen in time for a while. Over 1000s of years there wouldn't be 2 Peters, 2 Olivia's, 2 Walter's, etc which could cross over and see each other if there wasn't some level of timeline symmetry.

Not sure what show to follow now and with football soon ending it's season, maybe I'll have to get off the couch-LOL. I've kind of gotten into Last Resort, but at times it seems hoky without needing to be. We'll see how Revolution evolves.


Anonymous said...

Thanks MJ.

We both got our wishes. Now it's all about one game. May the best team win... obviously the Ravens. Just kidding, it could be a great game. On paper the 49ers might be the better team but the game isn't played on paper. No one has picked the Ravens to win the last two weeks. Good luck. One thing is for sure, in two weeks one of us will be very happy.

Bill B

MJ said...

Ravens are reminding me of last years Giants (my team) - the team that everyone else said couldn't !

Mike V. said...

I'm well aware that lately it's the team that is hot coming into the playoffs that wins these things. But, the Niners have been hungry since 95 for another shot at a Super Bowl! And, their loss during the Thanksgiving Harbowl 2 years ago might give them some motivation too! lol They're both solid teams...we'll see what happens!

@Richard - This is a perfect example of how showrunners cannot win with their decisions for a finale. They can go the predictable way and wrap up the story the way that makes the most logical sense...( it for the fans), and people will be upset anyway! Then there are those that get bold and do things so crazy that it pisses off half the audience...(aka the Sopranos Finale) That was a risk, and it has paid off in that people are still discussing it today. But lots of people are still annoyed about it.

But, I guess it's impossible to please 100% of the fandom with any kind of finale. It's crazy! lol

I think they attempted to have a bit of a twist with September volunteering to take Walter's place...and then for it to be more meaningful and unexpected when Walter did have to go in the end. And it just made sense that he would have to be the one to go. I liked it! I don't think series finales are a place to do something too crazy. It's to wrap up loose ends and tie things up nicely. And Fringe did that in leaps and bounds.

When we are talking about the reset SHOULD HAVE BEEN in 1985, we're just talking logically...not emotionally. Clearly, for the show to work best, the reset had to happen in 2015. But, logically with all that we know about the Observers and their interference with history, clearing them out would have impacted things that happened in 1985 and set the course for all Fringe storylines to come afterwards. If september doesn't distract Walternate, then Walter never crosses over and gets Peter. Peter never meets Olivia and there is no Etta. If the Observers don't exist, then September doesn't exist.

But clearly the plan hatched by September and Walter was to reset time at a specific point. I'm not sure how that would work, but all that we need to know is THEY knew how it would work! lol

I don't agree that a time reset in one universe should have the same effect on the other one. They closed the bridge before 2015. So there was no more interaction between worlds. If the reset happened in 2015...nothing would have changed over there to reset. The only difference would be that Olivia crossed over in 2036....that no longer would have happened in the reset. So in that sense, it had a "minor" effect on their world.

I think you should definitely watch THE FOLLOWING tonight. It looks like it's going to be spectacular. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time commitment right now to recap it. But, we'll see how much I get into it. I wouldn't waste your time with Last Resort, it's already cancelled! lol And yes, we'll see about Revolution.

You're totally welcome for the time put into the recap. Thanks for your comments as always!!

Anonymous said...

Regarding the other universe... the time reset means that our universe would now be 21 years behind the other universe as a result of the time reset. Technically the two universes would no longer be parallel. Right?

Bill B

Mike V. said...

I really don't think that's the case.

Parallel dimensions are exactly that. Parallel. So 1/21/2013 will always be 1/21/2013 no matter what dimension you're in. If a timeline was reset in dimension A and not in dimension B that doesn't affect DATES.

There would still be a 2036 in both dimensions as well...but the timeline they were currently in vanished as soon as Walter and Michael stepped through that wormhole.

So, the next thing we logically want to see (on television) is 2015. so if Peter, Olivia and Etta would want to cross universes one day to say in 2017....then we'd see 2017's version of Fauxlivia and Lincoln and crew. But of course then THAT would affect their timeline since it didn't originally happen the first time around. lol

Of course, this is all hypothetical I guess other people can interpret it differently! lol

Anonymous said...

So you are saying the parallel universe would still be there but if someone from our universe crossed over it would be the same year. So even though the other side's time didn't get reset, there would be an Olivia and Lincoln in the parallel universe circa 2017. So what happened to the Olivia and Lincoln from 2036? Crossing sides now would require both the crossing of universes and time travel. To me a parallel universe needs to share the same time line. While there would still theoretically be parallel universes for all universes in all time lines, the original red universe would no longer have the blue universe as a parallel.
Trust me, I just googled this...LOL

Like you said it's all science fiction. What you are saying is once the time reset there would be two parallel red universes - Red 1 with a date of 2015 and Red 2 with a date of 2036.

Of course there would be parellel blue universes splitting off as well. Some where the plan worked and there are no observers and others where the plan failed and the observers continue on, and all the possible outcomes in between.

Mind numbing. That's why I liked this show. Now let's never speak of it again. :)

Bill B

Mike V. said...

I know what I'm thinking in my head, it's just not coming out right! lol

Let's put it this way. Time was reset in the blue verse...well then yes maybe time was reset in the red verse but events would play out exactly as they had already over there because nothing has changed over there....(with the exception, like I said...of Olivia crossing over in 2036). Make sense?? lol

I'm going to guess they didn't spend a lot of time thinking about this. Why would they waste time showing us that Lincoln and Fauxlivia had a happy ending if that was going to be erased when all was said and done? We can assume, that time would proceed as planned and they'd still have that happy ending and the timeline would coexist in parallel with the blue verse.

Of course, with the bridge being closed there should be no interaction between universes ever again since the repercussions (seen during the Fringe saga) are potentially catastrophic for both sides!

I guess you could have interpreted what I said in my last comment the way you wrote it...that there would be multiple red universes. I guess that's possible too. Everything is based on decisions made and it causes infinite branches of timelines. So technically I guess there could be a red universe 1 and red universe 2. But my point remains the same. they would practically be mirror images of each other with that one exception of Olivia crossing over. lol

Mike V. said...

Of course, I didn't read your last sentence until I postsed. So, I'm done if you're done! LOL

Anonymous said...

I'll try to elaborate a little more on my take of the alt universe vs ours after thinking about it a little.

1. Like Lost, this is a love story, so I'm not going to sweat this concept too much since I don't think they did either.
2. If you accept that our Earth is millions of years old, the probability of having practically identical people whom are unrelated at exactly the same timeline is next to impossible without the concept of universe symmetry/mirroring/paralleling.
3. Walter changed things when he stole Peter. Of course some would say if Peter died in this verse he should die in the other to maintain symmetry. That really has to be the case for where we found ourselves in this show, otherwise millions of years later things would be very different personnel wise between the verses. It's kind of like the universe wanting to fix itself from another paradox Walter initiated.
4. So, moving forward we can't have parallel universes as existed before. Walter ruined that and to some extent I think that's what the show is trying to say--he changed things on a verse scale. The alt verse was a parallel verse(with obvious differences to make it interesting) otherwise after millions of years of existence we wouldn't have had duplicate sets of characters at the exact same timeframe(I'm not going to buy that it was supposed to be a coincidence--I sure hope not anyway. Of course if it was just a coincidence and parallelism is not important, I guess anything goes). The machine did some universe healing of course.


Mike V. said...


1.) I agree
2.) I agree
3.) Obviously the show wasn't going for EXACT symmetry in the universes. Even BEFORE Peter was stolen, Walter was "borrowing" ideas from the other universe because they were more technologically advanced than us. The difference between our universe and their universe was around the idea that we are all free to make decisions....and the decisions made OVER THERE were different than over here which affected the way society advanced. Of course, you would think that would factor into mirrored people not existing in both locations. Because prospective parents may have not CHOSEN to have certain children thus causing different people. But See #1...I don't think they sweat those details. lol I don't think Paradoxes come into play when discussing the alternate universe...only with tampering with TIME. They are similar concepts...which is why they're both found in fringe. But Paradox is specific to altering time. (at least as far as I always thought)

4.) I really don't think the show was trying to say that at all. I mean...I'd be thrilled if there ever was a movie that focused on "what happened to the Red Verse when the Blue verse was reset to 2015?" lol But, since that movie doesn't exist...I assume we're meant to believe that our little detour into the alternate universe in episode 12 was letting us know how things ended up there. And that things would most certainly end up that way again even when time was reset OVER HERE. Why? Because nothing changed over there. Maybe I need to draw a diagram to explain where I'm coming from. lol

I agree though, I thought there was going to be more to the existence of 2 parallel universes (back in season 3 when we were really exploring that machine). I remember discussing theories that The Observers were the FIRST PEOPLE (not the LAST PEOPLE lol)...and that maybe they created the machine (props to AUSTARWARS for that theory). I took it a step further thinking that maybe the observers used the machine to split one universe into 2. But, they never went down that path. But if the First People were Peter, Astrid, Emma, Walter from that one branched off future timeline....and they were sent back to the prehistoric past with the machine to hide it....then how did a machine get OVER THERE too? They needed 2 machines. There definitely is an open question there.

I don't question why the machine existed in a world without peter...because that one future timeline sent it back to the past which impacted all future timelines. (the machine exists in all subsequent timelines from that point) I do question how the machine was used in a world without Peter...but it probably falls under the same bucket of paradoxes that the "world without observers" does. all of these timelines and stories that we witnessed existed to cause the latest timeline we saw. I can accept that! lol

I'm rambling at this point, and totally on a tangent to try and justify what happened.:) But yeah, I still question how 2 universes got 2 machines. It seems like there's a missing story there to the genesis of the Red Verse.

Okay, done for now! :)

Anonymous said...

I know I said I wouldn't but I can't resist.

You have to remember that, in theory, there are infinite parallel universes spawned at each moment as infinite variables play out.
If you take one of those universes at a specific moment in time, a second later that one universe spins off into an infinite number of parallel universes as infinite variable play out differently by chance or interference. This is because every outcome of every possible variable in one moment creates a (parallel) universe.

If you started off with 100 people in one universe (we'll call that iteration 0) and they each had a coin and flipped it and there were no other variables, each possible outcome would produce a parallel universe. From all 100 coins come up heads, to all 100 coins come up tails and every possible combination in between. Each outcome is a new parallel universe we'll call iteration 0.x. Where x can be whatever the actual number of possible outcomes there are of 100 people flipping a coin (no way I'm trying to figure out the number).
If the 100 people in each of those new universes then flipped a coin again, you'd have the same thing happen again (0.x.y, where Y is the possible number of outcomes of all the 0.x universes). The numbers become beyond exponential.

As the time lines progress after each flip the probability that the universes from the previous itteration diverge increases. The probability of having any two of the infinite parallel universes mirror each other closely enough that the same people would have similar lives or societal institutions would be less probable as the time lines from each iteration diverge.

However, since we are talking about INFINITE possibilities anything is possible so there would be a universe where everything was the same except for one coin toss along the way. The concept of infinity is what makes this possible and also what makes it so hard to understand yet open to interpretation.
In order to keep the show managable and watchable they concentrated on two universes - the red and the blue. But somewhere there is a green, purple, yellow, etc. universe. And in one of those universes the observers won, in another they lost and September went through the wormhole leaving Walter behind, in another they missed their target and only went forward 5 years, in another they missed their target and ended up in 3021.

So yes, the original Red and Blue universes that the show concentrated on, will always be there but with or without the the time reset in the Blue universe, as the time line expands out the original Red and Blue universe that we explored in the show will have less and less in common. The time reset just increased that divergence. However that doesn't mean that there are Red.x.y.? and Blue.x.y.? universes that still wouldn't be close to mirroring each other at anytime because, once again, we are talking about infinite possibilites which means, nothing is impossible.

Or not.

Anonymous said...

If there was any doubt that convoluted, headache inducing, load of crap was brought to you by...

Bill B

MJ said...

I've been busy these last few days but - where are all the post finale interviews ?? They said they were not going radio dark but I haven't seen any interviews about the finale.

Mike V. said...

I do remember that...but that's why I brought up that Time Travel is DIFFERENT than Universes. And in this show we only really talked about 2 of those different parallel universes. Timelines...well a few of those. Okay, but you did make me think about the machine thing I brought up above. If they went back far enough...then those 2 parallel universes could have been spawned off of different decisions made.....they wouldn't have to be created by anything. and the machine would exist in both of those universes because they're both based off of one point in time.

I get everything you're saying (and enjoyed reading it!) and if we were living in a REAL science fiction world (there's an oxymoron! lol) that's probably how it would go down. But, I don't think that's where Fringe was going. I imagine 2 parallel lines (let's say a red line and blue line for each universe and forget all of the branches that already happened that impacted BOTH universes).....the Blue line gets a branch off at 2015 for the non-observer invasion and starts a brand new future. But the red line keeps going as planned with no branches. So no new universes are created by diverging choices because the choices would be exactly the same since we're talking about time. The one diverging moment would be in 2036 where Fauxlivia, Lincoln and the Fringe division would not have come in contact with Olivia. But, that would probably be just tiny movement in their story. I don't think Chelsea clinton would all of a sudden not run for president or whatever! Maybe Detroit would still be a dump! lol

Good question! Wyman is usually on Twitter following a Fringe episode, but I don't think he was Friday night. I'm sure there will be an interview soon enough. Not sure if the major sites will cover it or not...but I'd imagine so.

MJ said...

Wow ! I couldn't follow all of these comments.

I think we are still parallel. In 2036 Olivia went back over and it was 2036 for them too. When time got reset back to 2015 I think that if Olivia left the park and crossed over it would have been 2015 for them too - 2036 hasn't happened yet.

Anonymous said...

I get what you are saying too. Let's assume all things are equal between the Red and Blue universe prior to the timeline reset. Let's also assume that Blue Olivia and Red Olivia have the same genes and that, barring an accident (which we are ruling out in this example) they will die of a heart attack at age 85. Won't Red Olivia will be dead 15 years earlier in that red universe? That's why I feel that the timeline reset also made the red and blue universes no longer parallel universes.

In a sense the red and blue universes are parallel universes because they both still exist but if Olivia crossed over again would she be in the red universe 15+ years in the future or a "red(2)" universe on the current timeline where the differences in diverging outcomes didn't start until 2015. In which case neither universe would have the twin towers and both would be technologically identical up to the time reset.

So what really confounds this concept is that it involves both time travel and parallel universes which are both hard to conceptualize individually, never mind in tandem.

Bill B

Mike V. said...

I think we're just complicating things for the sake of complicating them. (As Walter would say, "Because it's cool!!" lol) But, I totally agree with you that that was the intent of the show.


I'm still not seeing it the way you're explaining it. (I get how you're explaining it, I just don't agree in the terms of what Fringe was conveying! lol) I guess I didn't mention with my parallel horizontal red and blue lines...there is a vertical line going through them at the same point. This line moves to the right at the same point on the red and blue lines. We'll call that the "TIME LINE" lol So, when we rewind to 2015 in the blue verse, it's also 2015 in the red verse. the red verse will experience events the same exact way that they did the first time because nothing was changed in their time line. (outside of the 2036 visit from Olivia that I keep mentioning). If Olivia decided to cross over in 2016, it would be 2016 in the Red Verse too. Of course, that would alter the path of the Red Verse's original timeline at that point. AKA - What MJ said. lol

I just see Time as a constant in these parallel universes. So I don't see there being a 15 year difference in the 2 universes because of the reset.

Anonymous said...

OK Mike, I get it. The red and blue universes both got reset and history will infold in the red universe in the same manner (except for Olivia's vist in 2036). Just remember that we only followed two universes. If the theory that there are infinite numbers of universes is correct, all defined by a decision made to go left or right by each individual, then all the universes would have lost 16 years. And, any additional universes created in that period would totally disappear at the reset point and then appear again as history unfolded the same way. Except for the blue universe (and the universes spawned from it after 2015) in which history is being rewritten for those 16 years.

You see, I can buy into that being the way it works but I can't buy into the time reset only impacting those two universes. And when you think about an infinite number of universes being affected by one universe finding a way to reset the timeline, it's a concept that I've never heard discussed in any sci-fi shows (which is pretty much what I am drawing on in this discussion,,,LOL)

OK, who would win a fight, Superman or Mighty Mouse?

Bill B

Mike V. said...

Sorry Bill, meant to respond yesterday but got tied up! lol

Totally agree we only followed 2 universes. But yes, in theory there are an infinite amount. I think we just view the creation of these universes differently. I just assumed the universes already existed and not necessarily spawned from people's decisions. People certainly make different decisions which alter each universes' trajectory. Of course the fact that the machine existed in multiple universes (at least red and blue) due to time travel lends itself to YOUR definition. lol

So, I guess the way I have been viewing it as a time reset only has impact to the other universes...since they already exist and their timelines are unchanged. But yeah...if we think about it from that perspective, there are definitely an infinite number of changes to timelines across multiple universes. Of course, I don't necessarily think years are LOST. Those original timelines still happened...they just led to the spawning of revised timelines. Hence the season 3 finale's dismal future led to the existence of the machine in the timelines we followed during Fringe seasons 1-5. And of course, the existence of Observergeddon led to the finale we got. And Walter is still living his life out in the future of that timeline...or i guess it would be the same timeline as the timeline we see at the end since Walter and Michael no longer exist in the present day. And that has to happen so that the observers would still not be created and invade the past again. lol (just had a headache on my tangent until I worked through that! lol)

So, you're making very good points and I don't know if I have an answer to it! It really depends on how you view the creation of alternate universes I guess. Great theoretical discussion though! Of course, it's all the more reason why Fringe can certainly continue to tell stories through expanded universe(s) novels or even movies. It would be awesome if Fringe gets a following over the years (through syndication, Netflix, Amazon, Blu-ray/dvd, etc...) where it can be revived to tell more stories years down the road. It could certainly follow the Star Trek model in that sense. We'll see what happens!

Anonymous said...

Season 5 out on DVD and Bluray May 7th.

Bill B

Mike V. said...

Very nice! I'm torn whether to get it or not since it will all be on Netflix and amazon prime. I have 1-3 though so I might need to complete the shelf! Lol

Anonymous said...

I was having a similar discussion of parallel universes and timelines and we kind of reached the same uncertainty. He did give me this link that provides theoretical food for thought without really proving anything. I think you will like it because it relates each scenario to movies...

Bill B

Anonymous said...

Here's a really cool Fringe timeline. Still confusing as ^%$# but at least it tries to map out the entire series of events....

Mike V. said...

Bill, were both of those posts you? Well in any case I enjoyed both links! Took me awhile to get to them but I did. The time travel stuff all sounds about right. lol I always thought there were 2 types of time travel...but the 3 variations make sense.

That timeline is very very impressive! The sad thing is, it really didn't confuse me at all! It all made sense! LOL

Thanks for sharing!

Anonymous said...

Yes both were from me Mike.

I found both interesting but also open to interpretation or debate.

I started going through the timeline diagram but had to put it aside. I'd really like a hardcopy to hang on the wall and study but I'd need a printer that could handle 12"w x 80"l(?) paper. LOL

Glad you enjoyed them.

I am starting to wonder the same thing MJ asked.... where is all the discussion from the writers.

Bill B

Mike V. said...

Seriously...I thought Doc Jensen at least would be on the horn interviewing Wyman about certain decisions they made. I'm sure there will be commentary on the DVD/Blu-Ray finale episode so he might mention some stuff there.

But yeah, I'm really surprised there's nothing yet. I guess for the most part this finale really did speak for itself. lol But, I'm sure something will come out eventually.