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Interview With Gordon England; Interview With Benazir Bhutto; Interview With Carl Levin; Interview With John Kyl

Aired November 5, 2001 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, as the president kicks off a week of coalition building, the Pentagon says it is chipping away at the enemy in Afghanistan.

Joining us in Washington, secretary of the Navy Gordon England just back from an overseas visit with members of Operation Enduring Freedom.

Then, from self-imposed exile in Dubai the former prime minister of Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto. Her party met with General Musharraf and demanded she be able to return without fear of arrest.

And in Islamabad, the founder of Pakistan's Movement for justice Party, Imran Khan.

Back in Washington, Democratic Senator Carl Levin, chairman of the Armed Services Committee and a member of the Select Intelligence Committee.

And with him: G.O.P. Senator Jon Kyl, also on the Select Intelligence Panel and ranking member of the subcommittee on technology, terrorism, and government information.

Plus, Ed Bradley, coeditor of CBS news "60 Minutes." He has done some incredible reports including one on Osama bin Laden's right hand man.

And then from Nashville, "Lonestar." They will bring us music and memories with "Not A Day Goes By." They are all next, on LARRY KING LIVE.

We begin with a return visit with the United States Secretary of the Navy Gordon England. He guested on this program on October 16. It is good to have him back. He has just returned from an overseas trip where he visited aircraft carriers, the Kitty Hawk, the Theodore Roosevelt, the Carl Vinson, his first overseas as Secretary.

What was that like?

GORDON ENGLAND, NAVY SECRETARY: It was terrific, Larry. We had an absolutely terrific four days on board ship, great young men and women. It was exhilarating. I'll tell you, proud of those great young men and women, and terrific to have the nation behind them, because it was a great four days.

They are out there on the front lines literally defending freedom and liberty for all of us. It was an exhilarating four days.

KING: What was the morale like?

ENGLAND: Morale is terrific, Larry. They know that the nation is behind them. They know they have a mission. They have been training for this mission. They are doing terrific, out there. I'll tell you, all the mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, and kids, you should be proud of everybody back there on those carriers and ships because they are just doing a great job, and they are just wonderful people.

They all volunteer for this, Larry. Remember the last time, I said they are all volunteers. They go out there and they volunteer for all of us. And it was great to be out there. It is good for my morale. I am the one who got my morale raised, not them.

KING: I was going to ask, what was it like for you?

ENGLAND: Well, it was exhilarating. You get out there with all the young men and women that have been trained for this mission. So I got to meet lots and lots of lots and lots of our people and all sorts of jobs. Ate in the messes, was down in the reactor rooms, up with the air boss and the miniboss. Talked to the flight crews, repair shops.

So I met a lot of people on board ship and also in Bahrain, where we have the headquarters of our fifth fleet. And, it is just a great experience to know that these men and women are out there defending the nation.

KING: What's your assessment -- your lasted with us October 16 -- of military accomplishment since then?

ENGLAND: Well, we are doing exactly what we set out to do, Larry. The president said that this is not removing a mole. They are removing a mole, that is an out-patient sort of operation. This is removing a cancer. Removing a cancer takes more time. But this is a war against terrorists, it is a war, ourselves and our allies, and it is going to take a long time, but the nation will persevere because we have to persevere.

I mean this is something we absolutely must succeed at, and I said that when I was overseas with our men and women in uniform. We will prevail, we have to prevail, united we stand. I mean that is a threat that we have to eradicate.

KING: Apparently, the bombing campaign is going to, obviously, based on statements by the president, the policy statement broadcast today in 53 languages, that the campaign will continue during Ramadan. Did you have any doubts about that?

ENGLAND: No, I never had any doubts about this, Larry. I mean, the -- in that part of the world there have been a lot of wars during Ramadan, and look, we have to prosecute the war against the terrorists. The world is committed to do that, our friends and allies.

We have to prosecute this war. We have to root out terrorism. Look, if we do not succeed, as the president said, our children will live in terror and our grandchildren. So, Ramadan is not a reason to stop this war. This is a war against terrorists, not war against religion, but against terrorists. As long as they are there we will prosecute this war.

KING: What, right now, specifically, is the Navy's role?

ENGLAND: Well, we have three carriers in the area, and we have various ships in the area. We have the Peleliu. Now, each of those carriers is four and a half acres of sovereign land of the United States. And we have the Peleliu, is what we call an LHA, an amphibious assault ship. Think of it as a small carrier. It is three acres, of sovereign U.S. territory.

And we do a lot of the missions, now, over Afghanistan. We have both Navy and Marine pilots flying every day off the deck, including off the Peleliu, where we have vertical take-off airplanes, by our Marines. So we are carrying a lot of that load today, and we rely, by the way, on the United States Air Force for refueling.

But as we speak right now, we have carriers, taking off and landing on those ships. So this is critical mission. This is probably the war of future, where our sovereign territory, we will move around the world, as needed, to project U.S. power.

KING: In the world of Special Ops, is the Navy giving any consideration to increasing the role and size of the SEALs?

ENGLAND: Well, not that I know of at this time. Our SEALs, of course, is a very superb special operation force, but as I said the last time, also augmenting our SEALs or working with them, and also independently, is the United States Marines.

When the Peleliu today, that ship, while it is a platform for our airplanes for bombing missions, it is also chock-full of battle-ready Marines and we have the sustainability on those chips, Larry, to sustain the fight for 30 days. That is, we have all the food, all the water, all the ammunition, everything it takes to sustain this fight.

So we are mobile, and we are sustainable, and we are ready for whatever the president's orders are.

KING: Now, land based -- if we could get more countries to let us -- land-based airstrike operations would be easier, wouldn't they?

ENGLAND: Well, they would be easier. On the other hand, you still need a base and you still need the infrastructure that you had with the carrier, but certainly the resupply would be a lot easier, so land-based certainly has a lot of benefits. The advantage of the Navy, of course, is when you don't have those land bases, and you don't always have those bases. So it is important to have the Navy, and in addition, of course, we just bring a lot of firepower and we bring in the United States Marines. This has been a team, Larry, that has been together for 226 years, our sailors and marines. And, in fact, this week, it is the birthday of our United States Marine Corps, 226 years, and our Navy celebrated it on October 13th.

KING: And Mr. Secretary, "Newsweek" magazine is reporting that the Marines could be sent into Pakistan to safeguard the nukes, in case of an uprising or the overthrow of General Musharraf. Is that true?

ENGLAND: Well they are certainly available for whatever the mission may be. Again they are ready. We have them forward deployed. They are also forward deployed in other parts of the world, but the Marines are certainly ready -- they are always ready. It is a courageous force, has been throughout our history.

I mean the by-word is "excellence," so they can do whatever mission the president calls them to do. Again, the sailors and marines, it is a great tradition, Larry, it is 226 years of excellence together.

KING: I mentioned other day that a Marine general told me that one of the unusual things about this war, among many unusual things, is that the boys and girls and ladies and men overseas are worried more about their people back home.

ENGLAND: Well they are worried.

KING: Kind of a reverse.

ENGLAND: It is a reverse. The fact is, a number of the sailors and Marines, ask me about this. They said, how about our folks at home, in particular anthrax? And I said, look, I get my mail the same way, and just be prudent, and I feel confident the federal government, this is a new threat, but the agencies of the federal government are coming together and they will respond.

The same way as the military is responding, the other federal agencies will respond, and they will safeguard our citizens.

KING: Can you tell us, any truth to the report that they are canceling some of these mass-holiday mailing programs, like Operation Any Service Member, where cards are sent out across the sea to people serving, that that is being canceled this year for the anthrax fears, is that true? ENGLAND: Larry, I don't know if that is true or not. It certainly sounds reasonable, you know, getting blind mail at least on the surface doesn't sound too reasonable to me, so I wouldn't be surprised. But I don't know if that is a case or not.

KING: What's the situation on the ground at the Pentagon? ENGLAND: Well, of course, the Pentagon is back in back in operation. They are rebuilding the Pentagon. You can hear that when you go outside the Pentagon now, but morale is very high in the Pentagon. We are working to prosecute this war. The secretary of defense, as you know, is very, very active, very positive.

I mean this, look, this -- we are ready for a long fight here, Larry. This is going to be a long war. So we are we are getting ourselves ready for a long war, and the secretary, you know, he's got us ready for that campaign. So this is a campaign, it is a campaign against terrorists. It is with our friends and allies around the world.

This is important not only to the United States, but to every single person on the face of this earth. I mean we must prevail at this. So we are ready to prosecute this war and we will prosecute it to a successful conclusion.

KING: Always good seeing you. Thank you so much, Mr. Secretary.

ENGLAND: My pleasure. Nice being with you again.

KING: The secretary of the Navy, Gordon England, coming to us from Washington.

And when we come back, we're going to take you overseas for important interviews with the lady who ran Pakistan, Former Prime Minister Bhutto, and Mr. Khan, who heads one of the disparate parties in Pakistan. They're next. Don't go away.


KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Joining us now from Dubai in the United Arab Emirates is Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister of Pakistan, leader in exile of the Pakistan People's Party.

And in Islamabad, Pakistan is Imran Khan, the founder of Pakistan's Movement for Justice Party -- by the way, the world-famous champion cricket player of the past. We'll start with Mrs. Bhutto.

Your party is calling for your return, this just in, to Pakistan, without fear of prosecution. What is your reaction to that?

BENAZIR BHUTTO, FORMER PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER: Yes. My party just met with General Musharraf this morning, and they told him that in the given political environment, where the extremist parties are out on the streets, a political vacuum is extremely dangerous. And they want assurances from my safe return.

The general told them that we should go to court. But for us, this is more of a political issue, and we feel that our judicial system, which we respect, is under pressure from the military. I hope that General Musharraf and his regime will facilitate my return.

KING: Imran Khan, as the founder of Pakistan's Movement for Justice, what do you think of the concept of Mrs. Bhutto coming back without fear of being prosecuted?

IMRAN KHAN, FOUNDER, MOVEMENT FOR JUSTICE PARTY: Well, I think that Benazir should come back. If she's innocent, why should she worry about it? Because she is too high profile for -- her to be prosecuted without any evidence, as was shown in a previous case, because the Supreme Court ordered a retrial.

KING: Mrs. Bhutto, what do you make -- this is for both of you, we'll start with you -- thus far of the military campaign that the West is waging in Afghanistan?

BHUTTO: Larry, I'd just like to say that for five years I have been persecuted, and I am innocent. In the university, where Imran studied, at Oxford, we were taught that a person is innocent unless proved otherwise.

And I feel that the recent events in Afghanistan are directly tied to the ouster of my government in November 1996. The death of democracy in Pakistan has seen the rise of extremism in my country, Pakistan, and in neighboring Afghanistan.

It has seen the rise of the Taliban over the whole of Afghanistan. And then we have seen how they gave refuge to Al Qaeda and allowed for recruiting and training camps. The American and the international community have started an international campaign. It's a military campaign, and of course they are going to try and seek the goals.

But a stable Pakistan, with a government that can motivate the people, is very important at this very crucial time, in my own country's history, and indeed, Larry, in the world's history.

KING: Mr. Khan, you have accused the United States of acting -- I hope we quote you correctly -- as "jury, judge and executioner." And you said that international terrorism should be fought by international institutions like the U.N. and the world court.

It was the United States, though, that was devastated on September 11th. Why is it wrong for the United States to retaliate?

KHAN: Larry, because I very strongly feel that this world terrorism is a complex issue. As Mr. Bush said, that it's not a conventional war. It's a different type of a war.

And so this sort of war should not have been dealt with as it has been in Afghanistan, where it really has now become a conventional war. And I felt that in this case, the United States should protect itself by having international institutions fight this.

Now, when I say a world court to fight this case, what I mean is that whole gist of Taliban's argument, and what -- recently, what Osama bin Laden said was that the United States doesn't have any evidence against them, otherwise produced the evidence.

I think that if they had done it in an international institution, this would have taken the wind out of their sails. KING: Mrs. Bhutto, General Musharraf leaves for an international trip. He'll be in New York next week, so will wee. He's supposed to meet with Tony Blair, who will be a guest on this program tomorrow night. Do you think that's wise, for the general to do that?

BHUTTO: Well, General Musharraf has control of the Pakistani armed forces. He has removed some of the senior leaders. And the Pakistan armed forces is a disciplined force. The demonstrations against his regime have been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) dominantly by the religious parties. They have been containable. The Democratic parties have supported, as indeed, the Muslim world, the international community, we have supported the campaign against terror.

And so in a sense, I think his going abroad is important, to meet with the world leaders and to tell them something more that needs to be done. And of that something more, I think it is the economic assistance for the poor people of Afghanistan and Pakistan, that is very important.

And also, a clarification of the aims of this campaign. The fact that it is against terror, and not against the Islamic world.

KING: And, Imran, what to you make of General Musharraf's trip, his first since September 11th?

KHAN: Well, I think it is very significant. He really needs to communicate with the United States, because Pakistan is in the hot spot. There is no doubt, as Benazir has said, that there is a rise in militancy in Pakistan. There is a lot of pressure.

But I just wanted to correct Mrs. Bhutto, that actually, Taliban rules during her time when she was in power -- I mean, fundamentalism is not since the Democratic governments have disappeared. In fact, it started most of all during the Democratic government period, of course at the end of the Afghan war and afterwards.

So this issue really is a very serious issue for the world. It could engulf not only our part of the world, the Muslim world, but it could also engulf the Western world. And I think that this dialogue is very important with General Musharraf and Mr. Bush.

KING: Mrs. Bhutto, do you want to respond to Mr. Khan's statement about the Taliban and your regime?

BHUTTO: Yes, Larry. Imran is partially correct, in there are a lot of people who call me the mother of the Taliban. But when I was called their mother, they were very different. They had no truck with people like Osama bin Laden, nor did they allow their territory to be used to train people in violence, to go and attack third parties.

And I had persuaded them to reach an agreement with the Northern Alliance on November 3, 1996. But when my government went, and the militants, or those sympathetic to the militants took over in Pakistan, the Taliban went it all alone, and they started violating all international norms. Now, Larry, I've got the experience. I have been there twice, when we were working with the world community and the Afghan leadership, in trying to create a broad-based government. It's very important to know the leaders, to know the networking. To be able to talk to them, and you know, to know the ones that you have to persuade a little bit more gently, and some who need a little harder persuasion.

You know, one has to know when to give them fists when -- or, you know, to give them a way out when it's needed. So I think the military campaign is important, but Pakistan's internal stability, and a team that is as experienced in dealing with Afghan leaders and persuading them to have give and take is also important.

KING: Imran, what do you think about the possibility of continuing -- and apparently President Bush said it will continue -- the fighting during Ramadan?

KHAN: You know, Larry, I think that it's -- you know, there has been a wrong perception, saying that there has never been a war -- that there is always fighting -- there has been in the past fighting in Ramadan between the Muslims. It's true. There has been.

But the point about Ramadan is that emotions are high. People are worshiping. People go to mosques a lot. They listen to sermons, temperatures rise. And I think that it's a very important point that as the -- it's a very emotional time. And if there is news of casualties, especially civilian casualties, I think the Muslim regime, especially the pro-Western regime, especially General Musharraf, I think they are going to face a tough time.

KING: Thank you both very much. We'll be calling on you again. Benazir Bhutto in Dubai, the United Arab Emirates, and Imran Khan in Islamabad, Pakistan.

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Tony Blair, the prime minister of Great Britain, will be with us tomorrow right. We'll be right back with more. Don't go away.


KING: Joining us now from Washington, two key members of the United States Senate. Democrat Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, chairman of armed services and member of the select intelligence committee, and Jon Kyl, a Republican of Arizona, member of the select intelligence committee, ranking member of the judiciary subcommittee on technology, terrorism and government information -- and Diamondback fan, congratulations, by the way,.


KING: Senator Levin, the administration keeps urging patience. We heard the secretary of the Navy talk about patience. Patience for how long? SENATOR CARL LEVIN (D-MI), ARMED SERVICES CHAIRMAN: However long it takes to do it right. We cannot be pushed by headlines, by political pressures, it seems to me. domestically here, for results. It took four or five months for us to move in the Gulf War before we were ready. That was in a desert situation, a lot easier to find the opposition.

And this is very difficult terrain. We've got to build up our forces. We've got to strengthen the Northern Alliance and the other opposition groups, while we weaken the Taliban. We've got to get special forces in there in greater numbers, which we're now doing.

We've got to get equipment in there. We've got to be able to sustain ground troops in the event that those are necessary. We should -- I think the American people, by the way, have been very clear that they're willing to take whatever time it takes to do this successfully. And I think our military leaders have got to give us the advice, and we should take good heed of it.

KING: Senator Kyl, if the bombing alone doesn't work, it has to be backed up with other concepts?

KYL: Sure, and our military leaders have made clear from the beginning that it will be a combination of all things that Senator Levin just talked about. And they will be done at the right time and in the right way. And bear in mind that we're not always going to know all of the facts -- that is to say, the media and the American people will not always know exactly why we are doing what we are doing.

Senator Levin and I serve on the intelligence committee, and there is a lot going on behind the scenes that you just can't talk about. I think everybody would like to see a faster military operation, but there are certain reasons why you don't do or can't do certain things on a time scale that the media perhaps would like. So just roll with it. And as you said in the beginning, be patient. I think the American people will be.

KING: Senator Levin, we're informed by Jamie McIntyre, our man at the Pentagon, that as part of its psychological warfare -- I'm reading this from Jamie -- against the Taliban, the United States military is now dropping leaflets over Afghanistan that show a picture of Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar in a set of crosshairs -- we're showing them now -- with a slogan in Arabic, "we are watching."

The leaflet also shows a close-up photograph of the license tag from what the Pentagon says was Omar's personal vehicle in another set of crosshairs. Pentagon sources say a U.S. predator, unmanned aerial vehicle that has been tracking Omar, took the photo of the license tag. What's your comment, Senator Levin?

LEVIN: Well, I'm glad that we're involved in trying to win the hearts and the minds of the people of Afghanistan, and to try to scare the opposition and to try to, in effect, make sure that they know they're wanted, and to get people of Afghanistan out looking for him, because we're going to find him sooner or later. But I'm not an expert on psychological warfare. I'm not in a good position to judge whether or not that's an effective pamphlet. But I do think that it is important that we do drop information to the people of Afghanistan. We are dropping radios so that they can listen, by the way, to the channel which we have on our aircraft, which is able to transmit to them, information which they otherwise do not get.

So, this is a very important part of, it seems to me, communicating with the people of Afghanistan. It's not as important as the food that we have to get to them, the humanitarian assistance, the rebuilding commitments which we have to make after we defeat the Taliban. But it is an important part of any war.

KING: Senator Kyl, your comments on a "New York Times" report about that destruction of the New York station of the CIA, which they say has seriously disrupted United States intelligence operations. Would you comment on that?

KYL: Larry, I can't comment on that. I'm sorry, I just can't give any information on that tonight.

KING: You, Senator Levin?

LEVIN: No, I wouldn't -- if I had information on it, which I don't, I wouldn't share with you, because obviously it's highly classified business. But I don't have information on it, other than what we just read in the press today.

KING: Overall, Senator Kyl, how would you describe the state of American intelligence now?

KYL: It's getting better, but frankly I have been disappointed that we didn't have better intelligence when this war started. Obviously we didn't know it was going to start, and I think we were ill prepared. We had let that region of the world go for about a decade after the Soviets were kicked out of Afghanistan.

We basically left the area as well. We had been cooperating closely with Pakistan, which had been helping a great deal and supporting U.S. efforts there. But that relationship really deteriorated over the last decade. And I was Pakistan just the last week in August, and I can tell you that there is a real desire on the part of the Pakistani leadership to reestablish that strong relationship with the United States, so that they can be of assistance to us, and frankly we can be of assistance to them, as well.

KING: Let's' get in a call for the senators. Akron, Ohio, hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Hello.

CALLER: I was wondering, do you think this is going to lead into a world war? KING: Senator Levin, do you see this broadening?

LEVIN: I don't see it leading into a world war. I do hope, however, that after the Taliban is defeated and al Qaeda's defeated, and bin Laden is brought to justice, one way or the other, that then the new dynamic is such, the new environment is such that those countries that have fostered or harbored terrorism or terrorists will realize that the tide of history is against them.

And that one way or another, hopefully, because of this momentum which a new coalition can create, particularly when we join with the Russians now, telling countries that others, including some of our allies, have tended it seems me, to look the other way at relative to terrorism, countries such as Iran, that the tide of history is against terrorism. Terrorism cannot be condoned by any civilized community. And that, therefore, we're going to win without the need for any broader military action than Afghanistan. That's what I'm hoping for.

KING: Senator Kyl, we know the Senate and the House have two different versions of the airline security bill. And they're going to go to committee on it. Seven Chicago O'Hare security workers suspended, after a man makes it through a security checkpoint with knives, a can of mace, a stun gun.

A security worker had found two other knives. The other stuff was discovered during a random luggage search. Secretary Mineta seeking sanctions against United Airlines. Does this concern you?

KYL: It absolutely does. It's almost inconceivable that this could happen. And it's a good illustration of why we've got to get legislation passed. The President's absolutely right. We need new federal regulations. And we need federal supervision of these people. And by the way, we need to be able to hire them quickly and fire or suspend them quickly, as was done in the case of these people that missed these guns and knives at the airport.

KING: Does it back, Senator Levin, your concept of everyone federally employed, which passed 100 to nothing in the Senate?

LEVIN: It surely does. The federal employees that we have are better trained. They're better paid than these private workers, who are very inadequately trained, poorly paid. I don't know why the House Republicans have such an ideological problem with government employees, the firefighters in New York, government are government employees, the police officers are government employees, the emergency response team are government employees, the people who protect us here in the capital are government. They're federal employees.

And yet for some reason, the House Republican leadership just simply says when it comes to protecting the public at these baggage checkpoints, that they want the private people to be in in charge under federal supervision. I think it's a mistake. We ought to have the permanence. We ought to have the good training. We ought to have the decent pay that comes with being a federal employee. Voted 100 to nothing in the Senate by... KYL: Larry, the 100 to nothing doesn't represent the views of all senators. And I won't take the time here to engage in that. I disagree with Carl on that point. The 100 to nothing was an effort to get the bill moving, so that we could get something passed quickly. But almost half of the members of the Senate disagree with that position, as do I. There a good debate the that we can have about it, but I won't try to do that tonight.

KING: We will. Thank you both very much, senators Carl Levin and Jon Kyl.

When we come back, one of the best journalists in the business. Ed Bradley of CBS "60 MINUTES" is next. Tony Blair, the prime minister of Great Britain, tomorrow night. Don't go away.


DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think that it is something that is being very aggressively addressed at the present time. How long it will take, one can't guess, but certainly all of us would hope it would take the least possible time, because the people there pose a threat to innocent people all across the globe.



KING: It's always a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, Ed Bradley. In his 21st season with "60 minutes". I remember when he started. Veteran CBS news correspondent.

What has it been like, Ed, to cover story their when you work for a weekly magazine?

ED BRADLEY, "60 MINUTES": You know, I think it's different, Larry, than anything I've ever covered. It's been as intense as anything I've covered since the Vietnam War, the end of Vietnam, the end of Cambodia.

At that time, I went back to Cambodia in January and worked every day until March, until the government fell. And we were evacuated by helicopter from Penam Penh. And then went to Saigon. And after two days day off, and worked there until I left from a helicopter atop the embassy.

This has been as intense because every week you're responding to another phase of the story, to another challenge.

Just an example, the first week I was on the air with Dan Rather. And also at the same time, trying to do a story on the search for someone who had been lost at the World Trade Center. And we were following his family. So it was an intense week of double duty.

And then I flew off to Cairo, because I thought it was important and the broadcast thought it was important to give people in this country a sense of how other people feel about us and how they felt about this terrorist attack, how they feel about Americans and the American government.

So there's one after another, week after week. And it is intense. And it's a little different than when you're doing an evening news broadcast because those, by nature, are shorter in duration. You can do a minute and a half, a two minute piece. To do a 10, 12 minute piece for a magazine program takes a lot longer.

KING: Where were you that morning?

BRADLEY: I was at the gym that morning. And in fact, had gone into the locker room. And was getting dressed and heard someone say that a plane had crashed into the World Trade Center. And I thought, "Boy, how could a pilot do that?" Because they said at first it was a small plane. And I thought it was just a passenger aircraft, you know, one of those small twin-engine planes.

And then, within a few minutes, I was in the gym working out. And it became clear when the second plane hit that this was not an accident.

KING: What about -- let's get into some of things you've covered. When you did the story about the feelings towards the United States in the Arab world, what -- was there a general theme of dislike?

BRADLEY: You know, it's -- there's a dichotomy there, Larry. There are people who say on the one hand, we don't hate Americans. We don't dislike Americans. We like Americans. We like the American way of life. For many people, it's the ideal dream. The American dream is the dream of many people in this world.

But people said over and over, we do not like the policy of the American government, particularly when it comes to the Middle East. They see regimes that are run by people who are just a half step short of being a dictator, who have the support of the United States for strategic and political reasons.

They see the support of Israel as they see it blanket support of Israel by whoever is in White House, be he Democrat or Republican. People told me that when they saw Palestinians celebrating after the attack on the World Trade Center, that they didn't agree with that sentiment, but that they understood why they did it.

KING: You also did a portrait of bin Laden's right-hand man, Ayman al-Zawahiri. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. What read did you get on doing that?

BRADLEY: You know, Dr. al-Zawahiri was a -- I thought an important character in this play of this terrorist organization. In fact, there were many people who said to me that Zawahiri was more important than bin Laden. They said if you wanted to look at the structure of his organization, you look at the organizational skills of Dr. al-Zawahiri, who was a pediatrician. He still is a doctor. He's said to be bin Laden's doctor now.

But he is one who is credited with turning bin Laden away from focus on other Arab countries, to a focus against the United States. And if you look at the kind of organizational skills that he has, you see that in the meticulous planning that it took to carry off this attack on the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon.

KING: What makes, from your view, in covering this and talking about them and asking people, what makes the terrorists tick?

BRADLEY: I think it's a hatred of America. It's a hatred for everything that America stands for, particularly when it comes to the Middle East. I think that there are people who are incensed by the fact that there were not only American troops on what they considered holy ground, that is Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, but that there were women among those troops, working alongside and as equals with men, which is...

I mean, in Saudi Arabia, women can't even drive cars. And it's interesting that Saudi Arabia is the keeper of the flame, if you will. The most holy sites of Islam, Mecca and Medina. And that their brand of Islam, Wahhabism, is much more fundamentalist than any other brand of Islam. And that this is exported throughout the world, even into this country.

There are some people who think that Wahhabism means terrorism. And I would point out that while most of the terrorists who have been identified, have been followers of Wahabi, most people who are Wahabis are not terrorists.

KING: When come back, we're going to talk to -- Ed Bradley did an extraordinary story back in May on al Jazeera. Now that's, of course, what's called the Arab CNN. No one even heard of them until September. And now, of course, they've come into worldwide prominence. How did Ed Bradley hook into them in May? We'll ask about that and other things. We'll be right back.


BRADLEY: Around 1995, al-Zawahiri moved to the Sudan, where he once again linked up with Osama bin Laden, whom he had first met during the Afghan War against Russia. In 1998, they joined forces to form a new group, the International Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, a group which had the following creed, to kill Americans, military and civilian is a individual duty of every Muslim who is able.



KING: We're back with Ed Bradley. How did you latch on to al Jazeera?

BRADLEY: You know, I work with an extraordinary group of producers and associate producers. And one of them, a producer by the name of Harry Radliffe, came into my office one day to talk to me about al Jazeera, and just said that he thought that this was a fascinating story. He gave me a short article on al Jazeera. And I agreed with him.

I mean, if, as you have, lived in and traveled in and worked in some of these countries, you get used to going to a country where the radio station, the principle radio stations, the television stations, the major newspapers are controlled by the government. And the government tells them what to say, tells them what the line should be for any given day, for any given story.

And it's something that we don't have in this country. We have the kind of freedom we have in the press to go wherever the story is, they don't have. So when you see Arab country, an organization, a television organization that is broadcasting around the world, anywhere there's a satellite dish. And they can say whatever they want to say. I agree with Harry, that boy, that's extraordinary story. Let's go take a look at it.

KING: Boy, were you right. Let's take a call. Johnston, Rhode Island for Ed Bradley of CBS "60 MINUTES." Hello.

CALLER: Hi. Mr. Bradley, I was just wondering, do you feel that we're providing -- the media is providing a road map for terrorism by announcing all the airports that are insecure?

BRADLEY: I don't think so. I mean, I think that the terrorists have a plan for what it is that they want to do. I think that if they want to get into an airport, they will come up with a plan. I mean, I think that many people felt that there would be terrorist attacks in this country sooner rather than later. I don't think anyone imagined the ferocity of this attack or the daringness of this attack.

I, for one, always thought it would be more low-tech like the first attack on the World Trade Center or an effort by someone to say drive a truck through the Lincoln Tunnel or cross the George Washington Bridge. These are things that have been thought of by terrorists and have been explored by terrorists. It's not like we're giving them ideas.

KING: Warren, Massachusetts for Ed Bradley. Hello.

CALLER: Hello?



KING: Go ahead.

CALLER: Hi. So I was -- I just had a question about after this is said and done and we've made our coalition with the Northern Alliance, what then? I feel like we're making another deal with the devil here. And I just feel like there's no good end to this, because the Northern Alliance is as guilty as the Taliban except as I've read, they are like Taliban, except they don't have their head dress on. So I don't know what...

KING: What are your thoughts, Ed? Is it a no-win? BRADLEY: I don't know that it's making a deal with the devil, but I think that's a very good question. And I don't know what the answer is. And I hope that our government and I hope that the coalition partners have an answer.

The mistake that we made earlier was that after the Russians left Afghanistan, defeated by the Taliban, who eventually took control, but an alliance of Afghani forces supported, in a large part, by the United States with Osama bin Laden fighting against them.

With American help, American money, CIA support, we just walked away and did virtually nothing there and allowed them to fill the vacuum.

KING: Yes.

BRADLEY: This time, I think we -- I hope we've learned a lesson. And we'll be a lot more careful.

KING: We only have a couple minutes. I know you're working on a piece on Arab-Americans going into Detroit. What you are you learning?

BRADLEY: You know, we're learning that Arab-Americans are experiencing what many African-Americans have felt for years, and that's racial profiling. We've talked to one man. who was a scout leader. And who took some Boy Scouts on a trip. And he was wearing a camouflage jacket, and talking to another scout leader on a walkie talkie. I mean, these kind of walkabouts that kids have.

And someone turned him in, reported to the police that he was suspicious. And the police asked to see his passport. I mean, he hadn't left his state. Here was a man who was an American citizen. And that's just one incident, but there are many like that.

I've talked to the FBI who said, you know, that may be the unfortunate price that they will have to pay for being Arab at this time.

KING: And do they understand that?

BRADLEY: They don't understand it. I mean, they understand it on one level, but say it's unfair, that we are Americans, that we support this country, that we are loyal to this country. That we don't give aid to the enemy. That we are as American as the next person. And it's unfair to label us just because we are Arab or because our parents came from the Middle East.

KING: We have about 40 seconds. Are you concerned about mail at CBS, mail for Ed Bradley?

BRADLEY: You know, there's a system that's been set up to filter the mail. And I think people who are opening mail are wearing gloves. At this point, I'm not concerned because when the anthrax scare hit CBS, when Dan Rather's assistant got the mail, I was in Cairo. And I guess I felt safer in Egypt, than I did -- some people did in New York.

KING: It's always great having you with us. Thanks so much, Ed.

BRADLEY: Larry, thank you.

KING: One of the best journalists in the business, co-editor of "60 MINUTES". 21st season with that broadcast. Ed Bradley. We always close with a musical piece. We've been doing that right since the get go of all of us.

Lonestars with us from Nashville. They're next. Don't go away.


KING: Joining us now from Nashville, the multi platinum artist Lonestar. We're going to talk briefly with Richie Mcdonald. They're going to do a special song "Not a Day Goes By" from their hit album "I'm already there."

How did you come upon this song, Rich?

RICHARD MCDONALD, SINGER: Actually, it was pitched to us when we were recording. And such a passionate song that we feel like, that we really had to it. And what's going on in the world right now is going on world right now, every night before we do this song, we dedicate it to the folks that we lost September 11. Because I really think that not a day goes by that we don't think about what happened and also we'll never forget.

KING: Let's hear it. The group Lonestar, the major hit. Here is "Not a Day Goes By."



KING: Those pictures you saw during that brilliant musical piece were pictures of victims at the Pentagon or in the plane that hit the Pentagon. To learn more about upcoming guests, you can log on to our web site at

Tomorrow night, the prime minister of Great Britain, Tony Blair is a special guest. He's a familiar face, but it's a new program. It's the debut tonight of news night. And here's your host and congratulations, Aaron Brown.




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