IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2010-02-25

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th1ayvl: ayt?16:16
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th1aHey guys.16:38
th1aWe have a problem.16:38
yvlgood morning16:39
yvllistening, th1a16:39
replaceafillCAMEMIS for Cambodia!16:41
th1aCompeting with a local product will be tough, even with a considerable head start.16:42
yvlit's not for us or for them to decide16:43
yvleverything will be done as DoP / MoEYS decides16:43
yvlat least thats my point of view for Cambodia ;)16:43
th1aYes, I'm just saying, we've got to push in a way we haven't before.16:44
th1aAs in, perhaps we should drop everything and start working on the Cambodia skin.16:45
th1aaelkner:  You awake?16:45
th1aRight now they have the advantage of the setup working more how Javier imagines it.16:46
yvlgood points, th1a16:48
th1aThis is far more important than anything else right now.16:49
* yvl nods in agreement16:51
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th1aI think we should shoot for having a demo skin running in a week.16:52
* yvl starts walking around the room, thinking...16:54
yvl(on details)16:54
th1aSwitching into fast: I'm delivering a product for a customer mode instead of slow, universally flexible open source project mode.16:54
yvlfor a limited period of time, I hope16:55
yvlbut at least for now, it would totally make sense16:55
th1aBut we've done that before, at SLA.16:55
yvland at least from reading/thinking/looking at Cambodia case I was kind of hoping to sell that idea to you16:56
yvlbut, as you raised it first... :))16:56
th1aIt is the obvious thing to do.16:57
yvlok then. we start Monday?16:57
yvlcoding part.16:57
th1aOTOH, it is not like "add student" forms are exotic.16:58
yvlI still have some pieces of puzzle missing + a little bit tired and could use a weekend's rest16:58
yvl(a little bit = I will fall down if I don't get a lot of sleep)16:59
th1aI will try to write a spec today.16:59
yvl(hectic week)16:59
th1aYes, understood.  Same here.16:59
th1aPerhaps you could do some of the boilerplate setup for the skin, new branch, etc.16:59
yvlyes, Fri or Mon before weekly meet17:00
yvlstart from that, then parts that obviously make sense17:00
yvlif you can get any design done before Fri morning in LT, please send my way17:02
th1aI'm thinking super-minimal.17:02
yvl"unorganized thoughts" format is very welcome17:02
* yvl too17:02
yvlI bet I can get the minimal version in few days ;)17:02
th1aAlso, probably more hand-coded templates than usual?17:03
th1aWell, maybe.17:03
yvlyeah, but that's to be expected17:03
th1aJust less "well, it has to be that way because of how x.zope.forms whatever works"17:04
yvlI mean, they *want* *zero* abstractions17:04
yvland that will reflect in the way its developed17:04
yvltime for "whatever works!" approach17:04
yvlwell clean up the mess, if needed, later on17:05
yvlby mess I mean something evolved, like Interventions17:05
yvlanyway, I think we're on the same page here :)17:06
th1aI can't seem to log into their demo.17:06
th1aThat's why we don't have a demo -- they're a pain in the ass!17:06
yvlworks for me17:07
replaceafillfor me too17:07
yvlphew, situation is not as bad as it looked half an hour ago17:21
replaceafillyvl, after looking at their demo?17:22
yvlyes, it kind of calmed me down :)17:22
replaceafilli think it doens't do anything that schooltool can't, right?17:22
th1aActually looking at other people's SIS's usually calms me down.17:22
yvlyes, replaceafill17:22
th1aThey're more frightening in my imagination.17:22
th1aI am worried though because they've got local connections.17:23
th1aThat counts for a lot.17:23
th1aAnd that is why we need to respond quickly.17:23
yvl- local connections17:23
yvl- potential "marketing" speed17:23
th1aAlso, less scary PHP.17:23
yvl- potential php/Joomla community developers17:23
yvl- and it looks pretty (JavaScript + CSS well polished)17:24
yvlthen again.17:24
th1aPHP SIS's seem to run into walls though.17:24
yvlyes :)17:24
th1aI'm thinking less polished JS and CSS frankly.17:24
th1a(for us)17:24
yvland it should stay less polished17:25
yvlwhy would anyone  bother dragging a:17:25
yvlOK BUTTON17:25
yvlwhat is wrong with these Windows developers17:25
th1aI guess we can keep our regular top "tabs"17:26
yvl(and mandatory phone / email fields for the win)17:26
th1a"Manage" still works.17:26
th1aI'm still ok with "Manage" giving you a plain list of tasks.17:26
th1aBut it should be a different list.17:26
th1areplaceafill, So Javier's initial feed back focused on -- as tends to happen -- initial setup, and SchoolTool exposing too many abstractions.17:27
th1ae.g., "Add Person" rather than "Add Student" "Add Teacher" etc.17:28
th1aSo that's the kind of thing where to him it is a big difference in usability (and in practice it may be), but in reality is it just a few forms.17:29
th1aAnd presumably we can do things like pre-load (or even fetch remotely) school year definitions, etc.17:29
th1aOr import from a file.17:30
yvlth1a, do you have Javiers comments in some forwardable form?17:30
th1aI forwarded them to you, right?17:31
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th1aI was just discussing privately with replaceafill the question of making a draft proposal public -- i.e., we shouldn't do that.17:31
th1aI'll derive a spec from it.17:31
yvloh, wait, Javier17:32
yvlyes you did :)17:32
yvlby the way, I look at every such example (like CAMEMIS) as proof of concept of ST as SIS17:38
yvlor SIS framework (though framework is *very* inaccurate in this case)17:39
th1aIinaccurate to them or us?17:39
yvlfor us17:39
th1aThere's only so many ways to do it.17:39
yvlbecause we are kind of a framework17:39
yvlfor the lack of the better word17:39
th1a"Kind of."17:40
yvlthere's a lot of effort in the world to build cheap durable SIS's suited for a certain education system17:40
th1aThat's the way it has always been done.17:41
th1aThe question is: Can we do it differently?17:42
yvlits not like we're first ones who tried17:42
yvlmaking universal extendible SIS17:42
yvlI think it's possible17:43
yvljust not the way everyone starts doing that17:43
th1aI'm not sure that anyone else has really tried.17:43
yvlbasically - doing it right is just too darn expensive17:43
th1aThere's no business case for an intercontinental SIS.17:43
yvlwell, you can sell/licence it to Ministries of Education or something17:44
yvlas a "cheaper alternative to fully developing your own"17:45
th1aThat's not a good business.17:45
th1aAs philanthropy, it might work.17:45
th1aNationally or regionally, it can work.17:45
th1aAs a business.17:45
yvlthat's my understanding also17:46
yvl"too expensive" - I meant investment will not pay off17:46
yvlok then17:48
yvlaelkner seems to be still asleep17:48
yvl(he did great job writing security tests by the way)17:48
th1aGood news.17:49
yvloh, and also uncovered an interesting design problem17:49
yvlthat kind of strongly pushes my opinion on API of extending certain information to favor one of few designs I had in mind17:50
yvlit can be fixed quite easily17:50
th1aThe more I think about this, the fewer changes I think are necessary -- primarily just making as much confusing stuff (years, timetables, etc.) as pre-configured as possible.17:50
yvlyou still have to be ready to rip any stuff out17:51
yvland add stuff ontop of other stuff17:51
yvland replace where necessary17:51
yvlbut preconfigured - yes, a good choice17:51
th1aBut, it is not so much once you start to break it down.17:51
yvlI've tried to gather the bits and pieces of ST development for a while now17:52
yvlthe "ripping" and "replacing" part is more and more important17:52
yvlit's been done in so many ways now...17:53
th1aWe've got lots of experience.17:53
yvlanyway, the more real life scenarios we get17:53
yvlthe more likely we're to develop (or should I say pick?) a right mechanism for the "flexable customization"17:54
yvlcommon grounds of administrating a schoool - very difficult field, as it turns out17:55
yvlokay, enough rambling from me ;)17:56
yvlwill get some rest and start doing stuff tomorrow17:56
th1aOK.  Thanks yvl.17:58
* th1a goes to get some cold grilled pizza out of the fridge for lunch.17:59
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aelkneryvl, replaceafill: helo?19:49
replaceafillhey aelkner19:50
aelkneruh, i had my alarm set, but for some reason, i thought i needed to snooze more or something19:51
aelknerhere it is i schedule a meeting, and then i don't show!19:51
replaceafillbut you have all our conversation logged, right?19:52
aelkneri wanted to talk to yvl about our security problem19:53
replaceafilloh yes, i noticed he talked about a design issue19:54
aelkneryeah,you remember how we decided to let people (including students) see messages and goals19:55
aelknerthat they were on the person_responsible list19:55
aelknerbut they still weren't allowed to see the student data itself?19:56
aelknerbecuase they didn't teach or advise the student19:56
aelknerfor instnace, the student can see such messages, but he can't see the parent containers where19:57
aelknerone adds new goals and messages19:57
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replaceafilland the student gets an error?19:58
aelkneryup, and the teacher, too is he is no longer a teacher or advisor of the student19:58
aelkneryou see, travesing to the message app-?intervention root->intervention student->messages->message19:59
aelknergoes though intervention student and messages which are not allowed19:59
aelknerso i suggested using traversal adapters though trusted proxies19:59
aelknerstudent>year proxy>messages proxy>message20:00
replaceafilli thought that if you have A->B->C->D and the principal has permission to see D, he can access it even if he doesn't have permissions for A, B or C20:00
aelkneri'm not sure about the rules there, but i know that it fails accessing __getitem__ of the student20:02
aelknerand we want to block such users from seeing what a student for intervention data20:03
aelknerthey should only be able to see the messages and goal they belong to20:04
aelkneranyway, yvl agreed with my traversal idea20:04
aelkneri was just hopeing to discuss this during the meeting which i myself scheduled and missed (:20:04
aelknerhow about you?20:05
aelknerhow's it gong?20:05
replaceafilli'm working in the competency resume for cando20:06
replaceafillporting it to the new pdf generation system20:06
aelkneri spoke wth elkner last night, and he said you were visiting a school that may serve as pilot?20:07
aelknerhow did the meeting go?20:07
replaceafillthey are *really* interested :)20:07
replaceafilli'm preparing some demo data for them20:07
replaceafilli mean, in spanish20:07
replaceafillwith salvadorean courses and content20:07
replaceafillso they can see it better20:07
replaceafilland today i found salvadorean competencies!20:08
aelknerso are they shooting for this Fall>20:08
replaceafillthey want it asap20:08
aelknerthey could still use it this year?20:09
replaceafillit's because they have nothing!20:09
aelknerisn't the school year too far along to begin using it?20:09
replaceafillthey started two weeks ago20:09
replaceafillwe start in january20:09
replaceafilland finish in november20:09
aelkneroh, i see20:09
aelknerthen the time is now :)20:09
replaceafillthat's why even marcela is helping me collecting "real" stuff to put in a demo :D20:10
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