Talk to Sahaja Yogis, Creation, Incarnation

New York City (United States)

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Talk to Sahaja Yogis on Creation, Incarnation, New York,USA, October the 29th, 1982

Shri Mataji: They may be quite shocked when I tell you all these. [Laugh]
But you will, can find out on the Kundalini whether it is true or not, you see. The thing is, the Kundalini the only One, which is going to tell you that whether it is true or not. So now, we, to begin with, let’s see, when God Almighty, or the Creator or they call it as Para Brahma. In the Sanskrit language, He’s called Para Brahma, was [change in the sound] fast asleep. So there was nothing, just the sleep.
Sahaja Yogi: Oh, it’s fine, a, I was going to show it to You…
Shri Mataji: You may like to come to India and stay, whatever it is, just find out.
Sahaja Yogini: Yes.
Shri Mataji: And keep contact. And they are going to contact this man, mister Dr. Balawara, and he’ll work it out. So, it was nice to talk to her, Tracy. She said: “You sound very well.
Now how was New York to you?” [Shri Mataji laughs] I said: “Not so disappointing.” [Shri Mataji laughs]
Last time you remember Tracy I was going back to New York. Tremendous vibrations, tremendous.

Sahaja Yogi: Mother, you were talking about some rock formation or something with three faces on it.
Shri Mataji: Aha.
Sahaja Yoga: Here’s a photograph, but this isn’t from India. It’s from Nevada.
Shri Mataji: From where?
Sahaja Yogi: Nevada, Nevada, which is…
Sahaja Yogini: It’s on the west…
Sahaja Yogi: It’s a state there, yeah.
Sahaja Yogi: Near Arizona, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Is it natural?
Sahaja Yogis: Yes, yes, Mother.
Shri Mataji: It’s Dattereya. 3 faces, hum?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Dattatreya, it is simple. It is, this is Moses. See here.
So nice, so sweet.
[Hindi]. No light, you can see there, how do you [unclear]. He’s working out very well. See the vibrations. They are so much.].…
Sahaja Yogi: Achcha, [in all directions OR it’s non-veg means]. Tike
(Audio 4 starts here)
Shri Mataji: So now we can just in short say that… [Shri Mataji asks a question in Hindi]
In short, we can say that the ego was formed and that concentrated point became the Holy Ghost, what you call. But I would say it is better to call It Holy Spirit. Because you see, this ghost business has been taken over by these Jews and they have really exploited. And they say it’s like a witch. I mean, when you get against, human beings when they get against something, they lose all sense of proportion, even against God. They have no sense of proportion left, then. They think this is their really. To say it, they have to have like this, without any, without any sense that you are insulting God.
And some told Me in Greece, what they call this one?
Sahaja Yogi: Who, Shri Mataji?
Shri Mataji: In a – for Holy Spirit.
Sahaja Yogi: They called It Pneuma, and in the Bible is the Breath.
Shri Mataji: Sacred Pneuma.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, the Holy Breath You are.
Shri Mataji: So it is that, the Breath. You see, that’s the Breath of God.
Now this Breath of God, Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, whatever you may say, is the Primordial Mother, the Adi Shakti. In Sanskrit language, you see, one it has such certain advantage that every word, every word, every consonant, every vowel has a meaning. And actually Sanskrit, it is started in, according to him I mean, if you read the calculations, according to Kila [?], what he says that it started in Norway, that the mother language [Proto-Indo-European] of Sanskrit and Latin was in Norway, according to him. That because the Rohini constellation [Taurus in Vedic Astrology], I don’t know what they call in English, is at right angle in Norway. So it started there and Sanskrit means made holy, made holy. San means holy, Sanskrit. So out of that mother tongue they found out through Kundalini movement, you see, because when it moves, it makes sounds at every point. For example, here it makes all the vowels, the sixteen vowels. And that’s why it was called as Devanagari, means it is the script of the Devas. They can understand. That’s why Sanskrit was called as Devanagari.

So now, so this Adi Shakti didn’t want to produce or create Her duality part. Cause She’s enjoying Her husband’s company, so She didn’t want to have – in a very, a day-to-day language, we can say like that: the sweetness of it. So there’s a Lasya state in between is, Lasya [first inner movement] is that, that She refused that She is going to create for Sadashiva and that’s how She came closer to Him, first. But then He made Her, He pushed Her. “No. You have to do it.” In that movement this Aum was created, because She was at a point with the circle, when She came closer the circle broke, I mean, it was thrown away, the Aum was created. Actually, if you see the Kundalini rises, if you can see it. It’s from the supraconscious angle, you can see the Aum on your head, here, where Christ is sitting. In that movement, in that sound, Aum was created, and that it was Christ.

So how Primordial He is! Just after the desire started activating, the first beginning of it. I mean, [I/there] was pushed into pre-activity, we should say, and not that activity had started, He was created, at that time. That’s the origin of Christ, Aum. I think you call it Logos or something?
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, Logos.
Shri Mataji: Then the Goddess divided Herself into these three forms and She created one Son and one Daughter. And – I mean, there is no sex in this work, because it’s coming from the Heavens, you see, it’s for the lower people to take to sex to produce, for Them, They don’t need any sex. And then they were married in the sense that they were given as powers, like passing from one to another. It’s all a big story. And all that was formed then a, you can say, the three male personalities or the male forces and their powers, the Shaktis. They were not their sisters but we say married, because from another mother they got it. It is just to give a combination, because if you have to balance; then if the male is working too hard then the female balances. That’s why a person who thinks too much gets a heart attack.
He should really get the attack in the brain but he gets attacked in the heart. This is because of this combination that was created. It’s all deliberate, calculated, with complete understanding.
So these three formed the three channels within us: the first of the desire; second of the action; and third of the evolution, or the sustenance, or the dharma, the religion. So the religion, as you see, it’s the valency; means our quality.

So now we come back to this creation of the innocence, the first one. The innocence is the first Logos, is the Aum, is Christ. But He first was created as Ganesha. When He came on this earth, He came as Christ, because He is beyond ego. He cannot have ego; He cannot have superego. And He is wisdom. To represent that, a head of an animal was put on His body, because the animal never goes into ego. And the wisest of all being the elephant and also elephant is the remain, is the only remaining animal there’s a story about that also, out of the large ones we had, the mammoth and all that, out of evolution. So He was made as the symbol of that personality which was Shri Ganesha. Is the, we can say, the seed of Christ, or there’s no analogy for it, but we can say that, that’s the stage as the primordial stage, and Christ incarnated as a human being. So He had to be human being. I mean, you will see some Gods and Goddesses shown with four hands and six hands and ten hands and all that. But actually they, that is in the, in the first stage of creation where they were like that, but when they come to human beings they have to have only two hands and two feet and a proper neck and a head, otherwise, nobody will accept them. As it is, nobody accepts, whatever you may try. [Shri Mataji laughs] Whatever you may try, [Shri Mataji laughs] all tricks they have tried! Nobody accepts. That’s the main point, cause human beings think they are the wisest of all.

So, it came down. Then this two, the second chakra, is of seeking, started when animals started seeking the food. While seeking the food they also started seeking the strong shores of the sea. And that’s how they crept out of the sea, and the reptiles started, and that’s how the evolution started in that area which you see as, in green here, the round. Now this is the stage where we see how the Divine helped us. And He sent ten times the incarnation of the Vishnu, we call Him, because Vishnu is the One who gives us sustenance. So the three aspects were, the first one as I told you was that of the desire, is the Shiva aspect. The second is the activity, Brahmadeva, the Creator, aspect of God as a Creator. The first as a desire and when the desire finishes is the destruction. So the first one, you can call it, as the one who is the desire and existence, as well as destruction, because then if existence is not there, there is destruction. Negation of existence is destruction. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is the activity which is the creativity, and that is Brahmadeva, and the central one is the aspect of God, which is the sustainer, the protector or the one which gives us our dharma, is our religion. So human religions are ten. In the evolution, they developed into ten religions we must have. These are the Ten Commandments of the Bible.
Bible is all there. Everything is so interwoven to Me, I cannot see the difference at all. Because you deal with the present. Supposing I’ve seen a child growing like this and then growing like that, and growing like that and growing like that, to Me the whole personality is the same. In the same way that this Void is nothing but in the, you can say the Mediterranean Sea, that is that void, where all this activity took place. This activity took place because there were ten main, these great prophets, were born. And these prophets are the people who are made out of the innocence, the innocence of these three aspects of Him.
The innocence of these three aspects of God is made into a personality called Dattatreya or the Primordial Master. He comes on this earth again and again. Specially ten are the main, main incarnations. So He comes again and again on this earth to tell people about their dharma, their religion, their capacity, their quality. That’s their job. That’s why Moses did not talk of an ascent. But that doesn’t mean Moses does not play any part. But one can ask the question that, why, why the balance? Why did He talk of the balance? Why did He talk of the Ten Commandments? For what? I mean, every intelligent man must ask. Every Jew must ask, “For what?” Because without balance you cannot ascend. I mean, even an aeroplane have to be a balanced thing to ascend. Anything, I mean even if we are walking, we have to have a balance.
So to establish the balance within us, these people came again and again, these ten primordial beings, we say. Some on the left hand side, some on the right hand side. It’s very symbolic. The whole thing is so wonderful. So now we can say who they were from the very beginning. This is Socrates, Moses, Abraham, Lao Tze, we had Mohammed, Nanak, Janak, and the last of all was Shirdhi Sainath. Shirdhi Sainath, the one who lived in Shirdhi. He is the last incarnation who came. After Mohammed, Nanaka came; after Nanaka, Shirdhi Sainath. All these are the one and the only one principle of Primordial Master who came, and they all said the same thing.
First of all, they were against alcohols, against any kind of a intoxication. But say at the time of Moses they didn’t have cigarettes, you see, so He didn’t say about cigarettes, naturally. They didn’t have. So the people who follow Moses think there’s nothing wrong with cigarettes because He didn’t say. But that time there were no cigarettes, you see. All these sinful things were devised afterwards. So they didn’t say what is prohibited now, I don’t know [Shri Mataji laughs] what other sins people are thinking about. That whatever I see I say that, “Don’t do this.” Supposing you ask Me I’ll say, “Don’t do this.” But tomorrow one may say that Mataji didn’t say that: “Don’t do this,” because, you see, human beings are good at finding out things by which they destroy themselves. They are experts, you see, how to find out things by which your dharma is destroyed.
So whatever at that time, whatever they thought was good, they said: “Don’t do it.”

Like Mohammed Sahib said that, “Now I will not come anymore; is the last prophet,” because He thought He’s done the job. But then he found [Shri Mataji laughs] that they are fighting and they are not at all bothered about their ascent, or their balancing, but they are going to the other extremes. So He incarnated again as Nanaka, and then as Shirdhi Sainath. So, these incarnations exist within us. They exist within us.

Now if you have to take the case of a person who suffers say, from stomach cancer. I had exactly this case, from Iran who suffered from cancer of the stomach. So I told him: “Will you believe that Mohammed Sahib was the same as Moses?” Imagine, what a great challenge for a Muslim to say Moses and Mohamed Sahib were the same. He said: “No, never, I can’t believe it. How can that be?” I said: “But Mohammed Sahib Himself said that they are the same. They are all ten in number. So why don’t you believe it?” He said: “But they were not the same. I cannot believe.” I said: “I cannot cure your cancer. Because you are a fanatic, that’s why you have got this stomach cancer. So you have to accept that they were the same.”
And he woke up, you know. So he went back home and, and another time they went to the hotel again. They had come all the way from Iran. So the wife said: “Now, will you please get alright?” He was very sick. He was dying. Doctors said he was going to die. He came to Me and said: “All right, Mother, I’ll do it.” I said: “Now you say that again and again. And that is the mantra for it, that: ‘Mohammed, I know that you were Moses.’ This is the simple mantra you have to say.” And he got cured; you’ll be amazed. He went back to Iran. He’s still there, living, existing. So this is what it is.
All these ten are there. And now imagine the Jews fighting the Muslims. Why? I was so much in a fury yesterday [Shri Mataji laughs] because I just can’t imagine, how can you do it in the name of God, in the name of the prophets who incarnated? The same person incarnated.

So now the evolutionary part is that, the incarnations came on this earth, ten incarnations, as I’ve told you. The tenth has to come still, we can say, or is there, in a way. The incarnations came in, and first one was the fish, which sees, which, which remained on this earth to guide, till we had the Great Deluge. It was He, that fish only saved that ship from getting drowned. The same fish stayed on for the incarnation, after even it had incarnated. It stayed in the seawater even when this thing happened and that he tried to save that incarnation of the sustenance. So we start from fish in the mythology, we have ten incarnations, first is the fish. The second is the tortoise, the reptile, which walked out.



Like in India, you’ll be surprised, long time back, Rama had an aeroplane which he described had 365 and 385 gadgets, which none of the modern things have. But He did it the other way round, you see. He had the other way round: that first you become the Spirit and then you know these things and handle them, which way you want. So what happened, the first we cut off our innocence, that’s the first root and the root that is the support of the roots is regarded, He is described, Mahavishnu is described as the support of the roots. So we cut Him off to begin with. So this problem started then that you had to send human beings as incarnations. To first of all to give you the balance, these ten and also incarnations, ascent. To give an awareness by which you come to a point that you start understanding that there is Spirit beyond this knowledge and that you have to achieve that Spirit. So at the time, first time the incarnation as a human being came on this earth as we say of this sustenance was of Shri Rama.

But before that was Vamana avatara which is the short man, a very short man. I mean, first the man was created as a short man. He is the first one as Vamana avatara, and that one came as a leader. The first one was Vamana avatara and He was given the power. He was given the blessings that He can spread into three worlds; so, into into the higher worlds, into the lower worlds, and into the central one. That’s how human beings got distributed into these three worlds, and a big, you see, problem started. Like the house that goes wild, you know, then it goes amuck. Then you have to get all the things collected, put them right.
The original sin is the big problem. The biggest problem was that. Now to solve it up one had to do all these things. So first the Vamana avatara came.

After the Vamana avatara came this incarnation of a very tall and hefty man. That was Parashurama. So I don’t know in the Greek philosophy, it’s Zeus who was Parashurama because it sounds like Zeus. Because Parashurama is contemporary of Rama Himself. Because somebody had to announce. You see, it is necessary that somebody must announce the advent. At that time it was necessary. So Parashurama came. The tall and the hefty man who came on this earth, maybe Zeus is called. Otherwise they are so confused, that you see, to, to relate this to that, is another confusion. I don’t know how, but looks like Zeus. But He is the incarnation of this sustenance force within us, sustenance the one that gives us religion, the one gives us ascent. So He came on this earth, you can say, at the same time as Rama came. And then She appeared on the scene at a point where Rama tried to break the bow which was given by Parashurama. And Parashurama wanted to find out the Incarnation. So He gave this bow to a king, whose wife- whose daughter was Sita. She was this central path of Mahalakshmi. She came on this earth as the central power of Mahalakshmi. Later on She incarnated as the Mother of Christ, Mary.
So, Mother of Christ is nobody else but She is Mahalakshmi. She is Mahalakshmi, absolutely there is no doubt that She is Mahalakshmi. But how will you know? When I say She’s Mahalakshmi, we’re shocked, that’s all. But She is the power of that, complete power in Her being. Now it is described in the Puranas, if you read there is a book of Markandeya, which these people should know how Mahavishnu was created by Radha, who was the second Incarnation. First came Sita, then came Radha and then came Mary. These are the three human incarnations of that force which is Mahalakshmi on this earth. And the only this one incarnates, this force, sustenance, because It had to raise you. This only incarnates, not the Shiva. He never incarnates. That’s why He’s Sadashiva, He’s never incarnated. And the left side one has incarnated only, let’s say, once or twice. Once, of course, as the son-in-law of Mohammed Sahib, just to support Him, who is Ali. And his wife, that was later on, his wife was also the same Mahalakshmi, the daughter of Mohammed. She incarnated on this earth. So in the main, they are worshipped as three persons in India, as I told you, as first as Sita, and then as Radha and then Lakshmi [unclear] In India, Mary is worshipped also, three, three persons. But otherwise she incarnated as Fatima. And She also incarnated as Nanaka’s sister, as Nanaki. But because they were at a potential level, they were potential at that time, so people would not know much about them. Even Mary was potential [energy]. She was not kinetic. But the reason why Christ never talked about Her directly was that it was the play of crucifixion; was a very important play. And if by any chance He would have said that She is the incarnation of Mahalakshmi, the whole destructive force would have been against Her, and then He would have come out with His all eleven destructive forces and the whole drama would have fizzled out, and the whole world would have fade out. So just to stop that, you see, this was kept a secret that She is the one who is the incarnation of Mahalakshmi.

My father who was a great realized soul, as you know he was a great master of Bible and every, I mean he knew fourteen languages. He translated Qu’ran Shariff into Hindi. Still his book is not published, I don’t know why. And a very big master on religions. He was actually My guru as far as human beings were concerned. He told Me about human beings, how they were, you see. [Laughs] And he told Me that: “Till you really develop the thing for which You are here, the en-masse evolution process, don’t talk of God; don’t talk of anything. Because again You’ll create another Bible, and another religion will start and all the nonsense will start. So just shut up till then.” And really, I’ve did that as he told.
So he told Me, My father, that in Christianity, when Martin Luther King came- he was a Realized soul, no doubt – but he thought that at that time the force that was attacking Christianity, was Islam, and he wanted to get Islamic people into that. So he- it was a political move by him, because he was just a Realized soul. He was not an incarnation. So he had to adjust.
So to put that right what he said that better not talk of the Mother as an incarnation or a mediator or anything as such. So he just said She was a woman. They did not respect Her. Means then he did not show any special significance, but he did not disrespect Her. But others who followed him, disrespected Her that She doesn’t exist as far as they were concerned.
So this is what it is how the, you see, how even the people who are Realized souls can create a thing just to adjust to the present, and then how these problems start.
Like Mohammed Sahib had to adjust also to the present though He was an incarnation. But at that time, so many women were left out and men were killed and there were very few men and many women. So there could have been illegitimate relationships and marriages could not happen. Then He said: “All right, you can even marry five wives. But you marry.” Means you must have a collective sanction; that’s the point. You must have the collective sanction. And because of that, when He said it, now every Muslim thinks he must marry five times; otherwise, he’s not a Muslim. This is human nature you know, to put everything opposite. They do not know how to see things. The brain, you see, it is upside down. And he sees everything from another angle. Somehow or other he manages. So this was they did to Mohammed Sahib.
So many things they have done [Shri Mataji laughs] that I am Myself amazed sometimes to see how they have accepted all these wrong things. So that was what happened at the time of Mohammed Sahib. He had to save people. Even to this extent that He could marry a young girl, say, even in India is regarded as sin, absolute sin. Anybody who marries a young girl is regarded as sinful. I mean, in tradition it is absolutely wrong to marry a very young person to you, who is like, could be less than your daughter’s age or something. But even to overcome that He said, “All right. I’ll marry a girl who is very young so that you forget about it.” Because He didn’t want the greater sin that illegitimately like prostitutions. So to solve that problem at that point He said, “This is to be done.” But like when there’s an emergency you create a boat to cross over, but you don’t carry that boat on your head when you have reached the shores, you see. That’s what human beings are. They’ll carry all the boats on their heads and say that, “We belong to this boat and we belong to that boat.” That’s the specialty of human beings. And they will fight for the boats, you see, which are of no use to you. [Laughs] And they will not feel the grounds where they have reached. That’s the problem. All right.

So now here at the Void point, it’s very important to see that Sita who was Mahalakshmi came on this earth and She became, She gave birth to twins called Lav and Kush. Two children She gave birth. They were human beings. They were created by Her. It’s a very unique thing to create human beings. She created two human beings called Lav and Kush. Now these two human beings were to occupy two positions in the head here, from here to here [ego, superego]. So they had to ascend. So the ascent was worked on these two persons throughout. So we can say they are the principle of the disciple. They are the principle of the disciple. And the principle of the disciple was worked in such a way that they occupied this position and this position in the cross point. Then Lav and Kush in their lifetime, now this is another story which is now being proved, which I told long time back.
One of them, he was little annoyed with the father because the father has deserted the wife, for certain reasons. The father, though the incarnation, forgot about His incarnation, was made to forget His incarnation and became the incarnation of a benevolent king. He is the symbol of benevolent king, and that’s how the idea of benevolence in a king first came into the head of human beings, through His incarnation. It is He who charmed or, we can say, He enlightened the awareness of human beings, of understanding that a king has to be benevolent. This happened eight thousands years back, when Shri Rama came on this earth. And to show how a benevolent king should be, He forgot that He was the incarnation. He lived like an ordinary king, behaved like an ordinary king, with all His ordinary feelings and all that. It was like a human Realization he got. And He acted as a benevolent king. This is Rama’s incarnation.
Then he had these two children, Lav and Kush. And in their lifetime, when they came back from their exile, He offered His kingdom to His children. That is also the father’s position. He was the father. Father’s position is that of Shri Rama, what you call as right heart.

[Aside]: Have you got the Kundalini book in there? You better go through that also, the right heart.
The right heart is the Rama’s place, Rama is there. And He had these two children, Lav and Kush. And they went to, one went, the Kush went to China and Lav went to Caucasian’s side. So the Russians are called as Slavs because he was Lav; they were called Slavs. “Sa” and “Lav” ; means ‘with’, “Sa” means ‘with’. Lav is the one who went to the right side, to Russia. And Chinese are kushars. So you can imagine these two twin brothers are now fighting among themselves! I mean, ultimately if you follow the history you find that two twin brothers are fighting among themselves. This is the history, the historical truth. Ascent is like this, or we can call it the descent. So that is what happened to both of them.
Now they were reborn again on this earth, later on, much later as Buddha and Mahavira. Say, they are the principle of Moon and Sun, and the principle of disciple, because these two centers are in the Void. So then they became Buddha and Mahavira, at this stage, they became Buddha and Mahavira.
But they found out after their death that Buddhist were another nonsense and these Jainist was another nonsense, you see, because these human beings create such problems that the same incarnations think: “What did I tell them and what are they doing? So we are born again.”
[Shri Mataji laughs] So they came back again as the two children of Fatima Bai who was again Sitaji, of Her, as the grandchildren of Mohammed Sahib. And they then thought that you have to fight with weapons the evil forces, and they died in Karbala. So this [non-] violence of Buddha which was preached- a- and non-violence of Buddha and non-violence of Jainath, means Mahavira’s non-violence was of a such an extreme nature, that both of them took on this earth their birth, to prove that it is essential that you have to fight, and this is not the non-violence of the weak.

Now the non-violence of the Jains is so horrible. They are vegetarians. Vegetarianism was never preached by Buddha, because Buddha himself died because he ate the meat of a wild boar, which was half-cooked. So I mean, He was not a vegetarian. But He talked of a non-violence of the human beings. You see, we are violent to other human beings but we are very careful about the cats and dogs and the bugs and the mosquitos and we are trying to save the chickens. Now you tell Me: am I going to give Realization to chickens? [Shri Mataji laughs]
See, human beings are wonderful. They’ll create atom bombs to finish off most of the human beings, and here they’ll try to save chickens, you see,, chickens. [Laughs] You see, tell Me the use of this human brain, what is it like? I just don’t understand, that how can you think of such a vegetarianism.
But these absurd ones have another limit, that they put a cloth on their mouth. They cannot, they do not breathe any things like any creatures which may be hanging around in the atmosphere. But the worse things they do is to get a Brahmin, you see, take him somewhere and they give him some money and they put him in a hut, get all the bugs of the village, put the bugs in the hut and the whole night those bugs eat the fellow and take his, suck his blood. And when they are full they fall off. Then he comes all exhausted, and then they give him more money. This is the Jainism. And if I tell you even greater things that they do, you won’t be able to eat your food today. They go up to the bathroom part. There also they try to save these bugs and other things like that. Imagine what Mahavira must have thought! He talked of all these things in the hell, and they are repeating it.
Whatever they said, they just do the opposite, I tell you. Just the opposite of that they have done. Everywhere, every religion, they have done just the opposite.
Like Hindus were told that the Spirit resides in every human being, that the caste is a jati, is the innate aptitude, is born aptitude, not according to your karmas, not at all according to your karmas. You see, these people talk, ask them such questions, like: “Who was the writer of Gita? Do you know was he?” Writer of Gita was Vyasa. And who was he? He was the illegitimate child of a fisherwoman, who was a Shudra caste. Imagine, how can he write that “your birth, according to your birth you get your jati” ?How can he write, a person who is not like that himself? Tell Me. But look at these Hindus, horrible people. How they have made these jatis you’ve seen as Brahmins.
They are all rakshasas, I tell you.
All the Brahmins of India are rakshasas, sitting in the temples, absolutely devils. And some of them in Kashi are the Romans who disappeared in the thin air. They are settled down there. You see their faces; they are absolutely Romans, these horrid Romans who ran away from Rome are settled down now in Benares. You can go and find out. They are the same people. If you see their blood, you will know they are the same people, the Romans, who disappeared from Rome. First day I have went to Benares, I knew they were who. And I wouldn’t go inside the temple of Kashi Vishwanath though it is indeed a very great temple of Shri Shiva. There I said, “I will not enter into this temple till somebody gets rid of them.” And you know, within eight days the government took over the temple. Then next time when I went I went inside the temple. It’s like that. They are all devils who are sitting down in the temple, absolutely doing Tantrism, and nowadays the business is to sell marijuana and all that to the foreigners who are coming. You can only get them in the temples of India. Can you believe it?

And that is against dharma, because intoxication goes against your attention, and in that part is your attention, which is looked after by your Yoga, sustained by your yoga. This goes against the liver.
It’s very simple, you see.
Recently there was a Sahaja Yogi that wrote a thesis on alcoholism. He got his thesis. He is a PhD and I mean, of course, I gave him the little point, on what happens to the OH ion in the water, when you take this alcohol. The OH ion, it’s towards like this. It is, it is, in a normal way if it is like this, then oxygen is in the centre, hydrogen here and hydrogen here. That’s all right. Then the water can carry the heat from the liver, which is given out when you feel the heat in the – heat is nothing but, it’s the poison of body, and it is carried out. But when the liver goes out, you never get a temperature. And the OH ion just instead of becoming like this, it becomes like this. And if it’s facing the liver like this, it cannot receive it. But with vibrations what happens, it become like this, so to say. And that is what it is, that they were all against all intoxications, all wines, everything.
Now to say that Christ gave wine to people among that day [marriage at Cana]. You see, “wine” means, draksarasa [Sanskrit word for grape juice or wine], It means the essence of the grape juice, you see. Is there any other word for the grape juice in those days? That’s the only word they used. You see, the words, the way they have twisted for their own things. This grape juice is the only juice used in that country because that was available, and another thing was that it was a very hot country, and people used to drink a lot. Anywhere you go, into Uzbekistan, I’ve been to: morning till evening, they are drinking nothing but grape juice. Grape juice is the main drink they have, the only drink. They didn’t have Coke Cola in those days.

You see, you see, it’s symbolic. Christ life is so symbolic that unless and until you have symbolism explained, they will never understand. You see, it doesn’t mean bread which is baked in this horrible bakeries. How can that be His body, you see? Body was made out of “mala” [Sanskrit word for dust] I’ve told you the matter, and He was the essence of the Spirit. The essence of the Mother Earth came into the grapes and was taken out, and that is the essence. So from the Mother Earth you have to come to the essence. That’s what He was saying, but hardly He had three and half years. Somehow, we can say, how much one can do in three and a half years? He did such a lot. I can’t do so much, I can tell you. Four years I was struggling in England with seven Sahaja Yogis. Four years. In three and a half years, I must say, He did a lot. But whatever He did was neutralized, because of the shortage of time, because people never went into any subtler understanding. In a gross way, if you treat a subtle personality you won’t understand. If you try to treat Me in a gross way, that I’m wife of such and such, and this and that and that and that, which has no meaning at all. I mean it is nothing. It’s something so, so much outside. You see, you have to be somewhere, you have to be born somewhere, you have to be somebody’s wife, you have to be something somewhere, you see to be a human being. But it has no meaning.

You must see to essence. And that’s what we have missed in the life of Christ.
So, now Christ is there, so Kundalini moves on till He is all every where: He is at Mooladhara. He is at every chakra, because He is the essence. He is the essence. Tattwamasi. He is the tattwa. You must give them the translation we have. You were here the other day after the Puja? You were?
Sahaja Yogi: No, we were not.
Shri Mataji: All right, the tatta- we have got the translation, which Brian’ll give you.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, we [have], this is the “Aum” I have. [unclear] the translation of “Aum”.
Shri Mataji: Of the, yes, the translation, of the worship of Shri Ganesha which was written, I think, about fourteen thousand years back. It tallies exactly with Him. You will be amazed. If you hear that you’ll be amazed, that it was written fourteen thousands years back. But the Christians won’t look out of Bible.You see, to them Bible is everything. It’s not. How can it be? How can Bible of the whole Universe cannot contain Him? How can you put Him in a book and say: “This is what it is,” and according to your limited brains you cannot explain, you cannot explain.
So, this is what it is. We come to this evolutionary thing. Then [Kush and Lav] they incarnated and they were settled down here as Mahavira and Buddha. So we have two centers here of Mahavira and Buddha. But at the ultimate, when He comes as the Kalki, then they are parts and parcels of His being and He uses them as one of the Rudras, is the destructive forces. He has eleven Rudras.
You see, the twelve Rudras are the Shiva’s, the Entire, and He is the eleven Rudras. So Christ is one less than the complete destruction. Can you imagine? Twelve Rudras are of Shiva, out of which He is the eleven Rudras which is here, on our head.

And once we start getting these eleven Rudras we are in for a disease like cancer or any very destructive. Cancer disease, you find it here immediately. If somebody has eleven Rudras is in for either cancer or for myelitis. Of course, there are other symptoms also. You get the Parawani, you see, the throbbing here. You see, the throbbing starts from here. You may get it, because this is the void. And the dharma when it is destroyed completely, this builds in, because these are the ten of dharmas plus one of Christ. This is what [it means / is very important], the eleven Rudras shown here. So I mean, anybody who has eleven Rudras, we just get after them. Any Sahaja Yogis settles down with eleven Rudras. You see, all those gurus are giving part of [it / each side]. Either they give the right side or the left side. Thank God. So this builds in. But if you go to three, four gurus of two different types, you might develop them. You see they are left-sided or the right-sided gurus; these horrible gurus, I’m saying, the fake ones. So they will give you either the right side or the left side. Now if you go to the both you may develop it. Even you may go develop it with the drugs also eleven Rudras, possible. But not to that extent as the gurus, you see. Because if you bow yourself before these people, you are not to bow before anybody else but the incarnations. Even the gurus, anybody, you are not to bow. Only to bow before the incarnations. An incarnation one has to know how to recognize.

So in Realization, till you are Realized I don’t allow anybody to touch My Feet. It’s not the privilege given to everyone. But Indians are so clever, you know. Before I say anything they are just there. I mean ,six thousand people, imagine, touching My Feet and the Feet become swollen, like that, [what to do]? Six thousand people can do it. And if you tell them, “You are not to touch Mother’s Feet,” they’ll touch [there / that]. But they must bow, because they know. They are very clever ,you see. In the knowledge of the roots, Indians are the cleverest. They know everything, how to attain, because their aim of life is to attain Self-realization. Nothing else is important. You see, the basis of Indian life is, you have to receive your Self-realization. As soon as a child is born you go to a horoscope person. He will immediately [say] tell you whether he will get his realization or not in his lifetime, whether he has a guru or not, if he is going to meet a real guru or not, in the horoscope.

Like My grandchild was born and we all cast our horoscopes at the very beginning. He said, “A great news came, you see, with the wire.” They sent a telegram. We had sent it to My husband’s family people that, “Her guru is in the family. She will find her guru in the family itself, and the guru is the Goddess.” It was all written down from them. Can you imagine? It came as a wire from them. That’s the most important thing that you have a guru in the family. So the Indian life is, to them it doesn’t matter if your carpet is spoilt. It doesn’t matter, [if / is / you see] this thing, but the chances of your Self-realization if they are spoilt by anything, then that is inauspicious. So inauspiciousness is a very important thing in India, to look after the inauspiciousness. This is inauspicious to do like this. This is inauspicious, you see. They are very careful about inauspiciousness because the chances of Self-realization which is ultimate goal of their lives, will be spoilt. But of course, the Western are intellectuals. I don’t know what to say about them. The Westernized ones, the Westernized Indians are horrid. They have, some of them have become gurus. Some have become, I mean, they are horrible people. They are making nuisance of themselves.

So now we have up to the point I’ve told you about this, and now I have given you about little bases, about the evolution part. But to go through it in the Advent, Gregoire has written quite a lot. Have you seen that? Gregoire has written on. Have you got the Advent?

Sahaja Yogini: Yes, we have

Shri Mataji: So as he has given Me a present, have you got an Advent to be presented to him? If you have, please give one. Otherwise, I’ll send him over. Do you? “The Advent”. That book we give to a Sahaja Yogi, not only to the realized souls but to a Sahaja Yogi to read it, because, you see, reading can cause problems.

Sahaja Yogini: Can You [then] translate into English the Rudra? What does that mean in English?

Shri Mataji: Ekadasha Rudra?

Sahaja Yogini: Yes, what, what is the English …

Shri Mataji: Kalki, Kalki is, is what you call… Kalki is what is called in English language?

Sahaja Yogi: Second coming?

Sahaja Yogini: The second coming of Christ, the Rider.

Shri Mataji: The Rider, the Rider, the Rider, Kalki.

Sahaja Yogini: But if you, You said if you have the twelve….

Shri Mataji: The eleven. The twelfth one is Sadashiva’s; this is the last, when He destroys the whole thing. The whole thing disappears into Him, the last one.

Sahaja Yogini: But how can a false guru give you the…?

Shri Mataji: You see, because you go against it, na? Ekadasha Rudra is spoilt by false gurus.

Sahaja Yogini: Spoilt one. [unclear] spoilt.

Shri Mataji: Gives a problem for you now, [where / here], they are there. [unsure, Because] Hita they can’t give you. You see, it is to be released na? Ekadasha Rudra. So now, all right, I’ll show… Can you give Me [a / your] pen? Now here you have a [painting/printing] which you can go through it, at the basis of it, and you’ll see all that is done now, see, a simple [explanation / luxury thing].. Then Gregoire is another intellectual, horribly, and there were two horns that were coming out of his head when he came. So I allowed him to talk, talk, talk, talk, you see. Then when he wrote this book, poor fellow. You see, I gave him of course the way he wanted to write and all that, and I tortured his life. A year he came and stayed in London, you see. And every day used to come. I could see from top he was pulling his ears, you see, putting his ego on one side, [as he is / you see], coming down in the same manner.

So first thing I noticed was the book was written in a language which was very harsh, extremely sharp. I said, “You see, how can you have a language like that? After all, you are talking about Mother. It has to be sweet.” So [I / I’ve] sweetened it little bit, you see. I put little honey here and there to make it little sweet, you see. [Then/But] that was quite troubling him. Then, you see, he had written the first chapter quite sweetly where he introduced Me, and how he came and [then] why he came and all that. But the second chapter started with his all intellectual, you see. Then we can call it the intellectual garbage in the head, [you see]. That all came out in the second and the third chapter. Like suddenly you come up from a very sweet voyage and suddenly you find rock of Gibraltar [sitting / you see] in front of you. So I said, “Gregoire, this is the Rock of Gibraltar.” He got a fright. He said, “Mother, no. Then I will not publish it.” So I didn’t know how to conquer him, you see, so I said, “All right. I got some two, three critics to read the book. And they said, ’First chapter we could read but second rigmarole we know. So we don’t want to read the second and the third’.” So I said, “Now, Gregoire this is the problem with this.” So I said to him, “Let us make it sweeter, sweeter.” At the end of the book when he finished it, I said, “Gregoire, we have to put these chapters at the end.” And he got a shock, real hit, I tell you. He said, “Mother, how can You do that, to put these two chapters at the end when it is in reference with all other chapters?” I said, “When I, I corrected the book, I saw to it, I knew that I was going to put it at the end. So there is no change in at all in the whole book.” So he put it at the end of it. So I said, “It’s nice for the intellectuals who still do not feel satisfied with the book. They can read it. You see, like the cows, you see, when they eat something they take out other things. So let them do it till they are tired of mastication. Then they will be all right.” So that those two chapters are at the end, and that is how the book is written.

He is a scholar; I must say, he is a scholar, but he says, “Mother, I am not a scholar.” This is the first book he has written in his lifetime. But he says, “When I started writing, all these quotations came to him from somewhere of which he was never aware. He had not read many of them. But then when he went and saw them, it was there, but I said, “You must have read. In your memory also they were there, but you might not be remembering, whatever it is.” “But it all came so clear,” he said. “My memory became so much open, just like a picture coming before me.” And the whole thing then he wrote it. So the book is very, written, it’s scholarly [good] and it’s not at all naive.

So what is your name?

Sahaja Yogi: Richard Payne.
Shri Mataji: Richard? Pen.

Sahaja Yogi: P A Y N E.

Shri Mataji: P A Y N E. Then I must say, though I am sixty years of age I write like a little girl. I hope you don’t mind. My handwriting is just like a little girl. May God bless you.

Sahaja Yogi: Thank you very much.

Shri Mataji: [Give him / How about] this one? So you can read there the complete, I mean, it is given there, what is the relationship of all these people to each other. It’s a big story. And also tantrism, [in / and] tantrism [means / is] “come to the point”. Now he’s writing another book, “Advent”, based on “Advent”, in French because this book we published ourselves, with our own money, and it’s only distributed to people who are Sahaja Yogis. It’s not meant for people who are not yet Sahaja Yogis. So we give this book to only those people who are Sahaja Yogis. It’s very limited. And you have got one?

Sahaja Yogi: No, I don’t.

Shri Mataji: Oh, then I’ll give you Mine. Please take this. I didn’t know. I thought that… Barbara, [you] didn’t [you] give him?

Sahaja Yogini: No, Mother. We never brought one.

Shri Mataji: Look at her, ha? It’s a secret.

Sahaja Yogini: But he’s looked at to my copy somehow [but / even if] he doesn’t have one of his own.

Shri Mataji: No, no, but he must have his own to study it, all right? Now, they are great people. They are going to do great jobs on the, this level. Now, this is the other way round you have put it, I think. Can you imagine, this photograph was taken by someone who had never touched the camera before? The first photograph. Some of My photographs are so… One of them has got… Have you got that one with the lights coming in?

Sahaja Yogi: I [unsure/have it with me], Mother.

Another Sahaja Yogi: Yes, Mother.

Shri Mataji: .Now it’s a big one now we have. I mean so many types. But this one, the six photographs, they caught it in a village where they saw the light coming on My head at that time and [this / it’s] photographed. Now, what’s your full name?

Sahaja Yogi: E W E R T. Ewert, spelled E W E R T.

Shri Mataji: E.

Sahaja Yogi: E W.

Shri Mataji: E W.

Sahaja Yogi: E R T.

Shri Mataji: E R T.

Sahaja Yogi: Yes. As far as I know it means shepherd.

Shri Mataji: Ewert, the shepherd. And what’s the?

Sahaja Yogi: Cousins is. C O U S I N S.

Shri Mataji: May God bless you. May God bless you. So that, you see, you will see the continuous flow of this spiritual power in creating these beautiful flowers on this earth, these great incarnations and these great prophets and they are all related to one force which is the culminating point today where so many flowers, here, this blossom time are there. That’s why there is seeking. It was never before like that. And just they have to become the fruits. The time has come. It is there.

Now I would request all of you who have the academically so much alert, that essence of the academics must be first, essence. If the essence is not tackled, then it’s all artificial. So the essence is for the good of the Spirit, Saheetya. In Sanskrit, you see, it is called, in every Indian language, the literature is called as saheetya. Heet, heet means the good for the Spirit. So the one which has that essence which is good for the Spirit. Otherwise, it is not literature. The rest is not literature,. It’s trash. That’s trash. It’s useless. Only whichever is good for the Spirit, is saheet in Sanskrit language. It’s so [unclear], they were so clear-cut about it. They were not, [I mean OR having] any compromise. There is no compromise [in it]. When you see, Manu said that you must speak the truth, satyam bruvya pryam bruvya and it should be dear, it should be sweet, it should be loving, people… Pryam means the one that is prya, that is loving, that is soothing, and that’s that you love. Prya means which is darling. So they said, “How can it be? Because if you tell the truth that may not be prya.” So Krishna said, “All right. We’ll put it like this. Satyam bruvya ritam bruvya, pryam bruvya.” Tell the truth which is good for the Spirit, which will be ultimately [mean/the] pryam, is a darling thing. Then you will not ask for anything.

Now look at these Sahaja Yogis. For them the most important thing are the vibrations. If the vibrations are not all right, they are disturbed. First thing is vibrations; last thing is vibrations because that is the presence of Spirit in our consciousness. So, once you get the nectar then you don’t want all these things. That’s the point. So the essence of academic life is the truth which is darling, or we can say which is prya is, what is, there’s no word, loving, we can say, which appeals in a loving way, appeals not to the brain but to the heart and which is just for the good wellbeing of the Spirit, which is appealing to the Spirit. That’s the essence of academic pursuits. Otherwise, it has no meaning. It’s just madness going like this like that, like that, you see. It’s just madness. You must come back to the roots because the attack came; attack definitely came to you people. There were attacks from every angle, as I was telling that Brian says that they were unholy, primitive, but I said to him, it’s more than that. That on your architecture Gropius, he attacked. On your music, Wagner. Then there’s another who said, “There is no God. Forget it.” All these attacks came to you, about 1919. Can you imagine? 1919. Freud, another attack. He wanted to make human beings into sex points, reduce them to that level. All these attacks came to you, and root was cut off. And the shoot stated growing. And now the shoot realizes the root is missing. So you have to become subtler, to go to the knowledge of roots. So you must get your realization. Even the music has lost its roots. The music goes on like that. It never comes back to the roots. So this attack came. Like Vivekananda, when he first came, he attacked you. Definitely he did that. Vivekananda was another false man who came here in about nineteen what. What year he came here?

Sahaja Yogini: It was the Chicago World’s Fair; I think there was a 1903 or something.

Shri Mataji: 1927?

Sahaja Yogini: It was a 1903 or earlier than that. I think it was around 1903 or something like that.

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no, should be 1927 or ’24 or ’26 something like that, as I recall. After My birthday. But all these nonsensical people you see.

Sahaja Yogini: Well, was a World’s Fair. I remember that.

Shri Mataji: Ah?

Sahaja Yogini: It was one of the World’s Expositions.

Sahaja Yogi: ’23.

Sahaja Yogini: It was a World’s Fair, Mother, when he came.

Shri Mataji: World’s, yeah, yeah.

Sahaja Yogi: That [he came] for the announcements.

Shri Mataji: He came for the International…

Sahaja Yogi: Congress of Religions.

Shri Mataji: Conference.

Sahaja Yogis: The Parliament of religions. When they founded the Parliament of religions.

Shri Mataji: Yes, Parliament. Look at that. Since then it started the unity, to form the unity, you see. And he came here. And what he said was nothing, without the essence. So I call him anti-God, because without the essence, if you talk it is anti-God. He talked without the essence. Essence is the unity, to find the unity. If you find the essence it has to unite. And that’s how the attack started first. Not that what he said was not truth, but partial truth can be very dangerous. More than dangerous that they are. So the attack started gradually. And his guru was an hypocrite, a complete hypocrite, I tell you. This Ramakrishna Parmahansa was a complete hypocrite. He married a woman before the fire, and then he calls her “the mother”. All kinds of dramas he played. You see, he is the dramatist. That’s never done in Indian life. You see, and in India his photograph is abhorred in families. Because what a man he was. He had a wife. You love your life as a wife or you love her as a mother? It’s nonsense. And she used to wear all the marks of a married lady. You see, she used to cover her, we have these things for a married lady, this she used to wear and that kangan here. All that she used to wear, and who was her husband if he was her son? Such a confusion he created this way. He’s the most untraditional man I can ever think of. While people like him because he suffered, he looked so miserable. You see, that’s what people like. They [want / cause] people to suffer. He’s going on, this gentleman who came. What was his name who came?

Sahaja Yogi: Lex Hexam.

Shri Mataji: Ha?

Sahaja Yogi: Lex Hexam.

Shri Mataji: Imagine. He wants people to suffer. He says, “We have the right to suffer.” All right, [you] go on suffering. He doesn’t want to find a solution. They want to play with it, you see. Because if they find a solution, how will his work go on? So they don’t want to give you any solution, because if you give the solution then you can’t talk of sufferings anymore. There’s no suffering. Christ is there. You see, they want to deny Christ. At every point when they talk of suffering, they are denying Christ, because when Christ is awakened within you He sucks in all your sufferings. It’s written down. And the missionaries who went from here to India never told that Christ is born. They, what they told, about the Christ who Indians could not recognize, see not Mahavishnu who is there to suck your…. because they never knew a word of Kundalini. So Indians got a fright, first of all with them. And they could not talk of second birth as we know of, as the real happening. And they talked of this baptism. That also Indians couldn’t understand. And thirdly ,they had no idea about Mahavishnu at all. They never read any Scriptures, Indian Scriptures to find out also. So closed, you see.

And they converted people in such a funny way, you can’t imagine. They used to put a loaf in the water of a well and they would say, “This is the beef that we are putting.” And the people were then discarded from Hindu religion. So they became Christians. Imagine, these donkeys becoming Christians. What is the use? Misrepresentation of Christ was the greatest sin Christians have committed, the missionaries, I tell you. Because they never understood Him in the essence that He was Mahavishnu. He came on this earth to suck the ego and superego. That’s why you have to pass through Him at the end. If you do not pass through Him, how who will suck the ego and superego? But actually, you pass through Him throughout because He is the essence, you see. So ultimately He’s the vice-chancellor of every university, I call Him. Even when you get realization, He has to be there to give you the degree. And He sucks it, and when He sucks it, then the Kundalini rises. That’s what is Christ is. And when I went to this Unity Church you see, there I found the Unity, is of all the bhoots and all the horrible devils. They have got Rajneesh. How can Rajneesh speak near Christ? I can’t understand how can [it / he] be in the church? Christ said, “You say about adultery, ‘Thou shall not commit adultery’. I say, ‘Thou shall not have adulterous eyes’.” See the essence of it. See the essence. He talked of the essence throughout. And these people are having Rajnesh as one of the persons as spiritual, Unity Church. And then when I, of course I, I couldn’t help it, you see, I was a guest, but I had to tell them that this is the thing and this is what has happened to you and it is wrong. This is unity of all the devils you are having. I told them frankly. So they had the anger on Me that, “She was a guest and She should not have criticized this.” But I said, “How I was a guest? You never paid for My coming. You earned all the money when I spoke.” They earned every day about seven hundred people were there. They charged them, I think, five pounds or something, each day. They earned all that money. They never paid even for My conveyance, for My food or anything. So how was I to be their guest? Actually, I’m forced upon themselves then I had to [unsure] … Actually, it is not at all the relationship of a guest. When you don’t even feed your guest, how is he your guest? That’s the thing. I hope they will come round because all gurus are now on [by way, byway]. But America is to be saved at any cost.

Today I told her what is America and then New York, the Hamsa chakra, the Hudson River, you see, goes like this. And this is the [Ridge/bridge]. And this is that [what your / Wards island] Island [and / I]?

Sahaja Yogis: [Stanton / Wards] Island.

Shri Mataji: You see, this is a very important point. You know this is the whole self-respect of the whole world and the whole universe is here. The nose is very important. If, you see, somebody’s nose is cut, that means he’s insulted forever. But if Americans themselves are cutting their nose, what can we do? So thank you very much, and I hope I, next time when I come I’ll give more elaborately anything. If you have any problems you write to us, all right? And we’ll let you know about all those things, whatever you think proper.
And now as you, you were saying, is the cool Kundalini. So you will see how these ten incarnations, and other incarnations and Krishna’s incarnations, then Christ incarnation, Rama’s incarnation, the Goddesses’ incarnations, all that is described.

Sahaja Yogi: As for, coming here, since 1976 we’ve been working on a Project that I spoke to you last night about called: “World’s Spirituality”.
Shri Mataji: You see, the, it’s essence. Again the essence.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, the essence and is we, we attempted to, to create a community of academicians around the world, probably hoping to say four hundred, perhaps, all together in all the different traditions. And we chose editors for each of twenty-five volumes on the criteria that You’ve just mentioned. But we wanted the academicians to be in touch with the essence.
Shri Mataji: The essence should be the unity.
Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: To show the point where it is said the same thing. Now the only problem that is with the academicians is that if they know the essence of the whole thing is that, that at present, you see, everything is dealt with the present. For example, in My lifetime what is most important is raising up the Kundalini. So I am not worried about other things. That’s My job, you see.
Now at the time of Christ His main thing was to be crucified, to put there. But His, His message is not crucifixion. That is His doing, because He had to be there on that point. It’s a very subtle point, but that was His doing. The message is Resurrection. Message is Resurrection. That’s the essence of Christ’s life. And the Resurrection now is happening as Mohammed Sahib has pointed out, this is the time of Resurrection.
You see, to Me they sing the same song, elaborately more, but according to the movement of the time.
So today we are at the time of resurrection where we have to enter into the Kingdom of God, into the limbic area.

But those people who are not – Ekadesha is there. You see, that’s why I like the Sistine Chapel where Michelangelo has shown Christ, really, the real way. You see Christ there, and thrusting this side and that side at the Agnya. Even Blake has shown Agnya. I have a, I have a painting of Blake. Absolute Agnya he’s shown, how God Himself is pressing it down, you see. You’ve seen that one? That’s typical. That’s nothing but Agnya itself. But who reads Blake? Who reads Blake? As Blake, I don’t know if they have mentioned Blake in the Advent? No.
Sahaja Yogini: No, it’s not much.
Shri Mataji: Later on. Ha, is there any paper on Blake we have done?
Sahaja Yogi: No, I don’t think so, Mother.
Shri Mataji: But why not the Kundalini in this thing as Blake has there? The evolution of Kundalini.
Sahaja Yogi: The evolution of the Kundalini.
Shri Mataji: Also give them if you can find. You take their addresses; you can. But you see on Blake I have spoken on this.
He went to this extent, you see, that he has even described, you know, the houses where I lived. The first one he said, the first beacon will be lit in Sunny Hills, where we lived first. Then about our Lambert Way where we have an ashram that a sinuous will vibrate. You see, such details he has given. Come to Lambert Way.
Then Jerusalem is to be, means this is going to be the pilgrimage. The last house that we have now is on the Tyburn Brook. And it’s written there that it will be on that brook behind the Kensington Garden. It’s exactly there, and the Sahaja Yogis are the “Golden Builders” because they have painted some parts in the cornices with gold, the “Golden Builders”.
And so beautifully written!
The hearts are thanksgiving and the floors are honesty. It’s beautifully he has done it. You see, if you read it, you’ll be amazed. Jerusalem, in that he has described all that. So, I mean I must say that Blake, Blake is the same as Markandeya, the one who came about fourteen thousands years back to talk about Christ, and Blake who came to talk about Me, about hundred years back in England.
Is it there?
Sahaja Yogini: Yes, this is, this is the book that has it, the description.
Shri Mataji: Milton.
Yes, you can read in this one, and they will give you exact pages and all that.
It’s wonderful, he says the men of God will become prophets and they will have powers to make others prophets. I mean, and Nightingale where we now have an ashram is actually, they came and told Me that: “Mother all kind of birds are coming there and they are singing songs and in that area. And it’s so beautiful You can’t imagine.” And then they found out. You see, it always happens after the event, they find out. They found out in Blake, nightingale is described that all the birds will come and sing the songs and all that, is there. And I laid the foundations, foundations in Lambert Way, and it’s written, “Foundation will be laid in Lambert Way”. And this happened later, they found it out. I mean, I laid the foundation earlier, but they found out later and they sent the thing to Me when I was in Switzerland. He’s, he’s Markandeya, no doubt about it. Tremendous. He’s Kabira, he’s Markandeya, he’s the same. The great principle. He’s Mahavira, the same person.
See the vibrations. But nobody understood his value in England.
See the vibrations.

Sahaja Yogini: Mother, if they would like to have coffee?
Shri Mataji: Oh, I see, good idea. Please have it from Sahaja Yogis. Just, you can put this Milton. It’s very beautiful. See, he has also shown here. You see, in his own way, he has shown this, [that] Kundalini resides in you. You may write to Me. I will now go to India. If you can make it possible to [go / come] to India, it would be good.

Sahaja Yogi: Hopefully and I hope to see You in India. I will be in India at that time.

Shri Mataji: Oh, I see.

Sahaja Yogi: But I can’t. I can’t. Unfortunately, I cannot make it [unclear].
Shri Mataji: Yes, but, but you see in a, it’s better than, if I go to the villages it’s very difficult, you see. I don’t want you to go through those hazards. To live in villages with hundred and eighty people, you see, it’s so difficult in India, you [don’t] know. But they want to go to villages only. They love it. So I have to go to villages in the first part of My trip. But the second part of My trip I’ll be in Delhi in a more sophisticated nature. [Where / You / they] have proper [ablution / accommodation]. But to Me it does not matter, you see. Wherever I live where there are Sahaja Yogis, I really enjoy it. Actually, you’ll be amazed that My family is an old royal family. My father’s family is an old royal family, called as Shalivahana; it’s a dynasty, which lived at the time of Shri Krishna also. And a bhagru, called as, somebody called Bhagru Mahan who came about two thousand years back started a calendar of Shalivahana in India, in that part of Maharashtra, where Sainath also worked in that area. That is a place. It’s a real place of the saints because these ten great saints which were called as natha, incarnations of the same principle, worked in that area. That is actually a place of such vibrations that Shri Rama and Sita also came there and walked bare feet through that place. So the whole place is extremely vibrated, and you have temples about thirteen thousands years old, and it’s a very, very ancient place. And there My forefathers ruled, and you’ll be amazed that My work, it’s really there. Well, My father never went there and neither My mother went there. But My father and mother lived in their childhood in two villages, I should say, where the rulers lived. And now they have an old fortress. I think you have seen that fortress. I showed you.

Sahaja Yogini: Yes, we did.

Shri Mataji: It’s there they lived. And My mother lived in the other village and there is a big river going in between. And then in their own family about three generations back they had to take to Christianity for a certain purpose, that the, you see, these Hindus and the Brahmins tortured My great-great-grandmother, I should say who was, became a widow. You see, they used to marry girls at a very young age because of the Muslim invasion. And then this girl became a widow and she was a very powerful woman and they tortured all the widows in those days. The Brahmins had diverse methods of torturing these widows. You see, they were to cut their hair, they had to sit in a dark room, and they were not to show their faces to anyone. They were given the remains of the food and even they were ill-treated, I tell you. That’s why they took to sati also in those days, you see. That’s why they took to sati.

Now this lady was tortured like this. So the brother felt that, “We should now give up the Hinduism,” because the Brahmins were so horrible, and he took to Christianity. That’s how he became a Christian. And he married her to ? we are rajputs, we are kshatryas, we are warrior classes; that’s the king classes ? and he married her to a Brahmin, his brother, and his friend who was a Brahmin. He married her to a Brahmin. That’s how two families came in to Christianity.

But My mother and father both were very learned people. My mother was a scholar of Sanskrit and of Mathematics. She was a mathematician and so she knew about Adi Shankaracharya and all that. But the Christians didn’t see the sense, you know, because My father was shocked the way the Christians were. I mean, they never saw […/through it]. We had all Christians who were just converts for money and this and that. And he was the first Indian Christian to be elected. Because they all, all elected him not as a minority, not as a minority, you see, because minorities were just nominated, but he was elected member of the General Election you see. He was the first one to be elected in the Central Assembly and then to the Constituent Assembly, then to the Parliament. And now My brother is also a Member of the Parliament and now he is the Minister appointed for what you call these telecommunications and all these in charge of newspapers and things like that.

So all this is My mother’s family, My father’s family. Mother’s family is, you must have heard about Shivaji, and his mother was Jijabai, a very powerful woman. So My mother is from that family called as Jadhavas. From that family she comes. So I mean, it’s a, family background is also so full of, what you call ‘rajasas’ is the activity, you see, activity. And Shivaji was a very dharmic man, very dharmic, you see, very religious person and extremely, of a very broad-minded person, broad mind and what you call a learned man, and his brother went down to the south and he started a very big library and the South took so many things from Maharashtra. So it’s a country where, Maharashtra is a place where great things have happened. So it is called as Maha-rashtra. Maha means the great, rashtra means nation, the great nation. And in that area Sahaja Yoga is settled down the best. It’s because the people are not materialistic. They are very idealistic except for this horrible clan of certain Brahmins.

Now so many Brahmins are like this, I must say. Very starch Brahmins, who were Agni worshippers, means they used to have these yagyas in their houses, thousands in one family. And they, this is my disciple now, Rajwari, he’s become My disciple. So they are also great men. But one thing you see, because we are not so organized it’s very easy to break. But the organized religions have you see their own ideas from your heads. You can’t break [it]. You see, if you break you are not a Christian. My father when he went to jail fighting the British. He was driven out of Christianity because he went to jail, as if Christ was born in England.

[Shri Mataji is laughting]
Absurd, isn’t it?
Amazing how we had…

Sahaja Yogi: Mother, our work has got as to a point of creation of a new company which is a publishing and communications company good in the Spirit and in the good people who wish to come together to work as a contemporary Christian community, and to convene other communities from other traditions to work together to provide communications that have this spirit and to do this in a way that gives witness to a kind of cooperation among people with various traditions. Do You have any sense of this? I mean…

Shri Mataji: That’s a very good thing, but again I would say that the essence should be, essence of the whole thing should be, to bring about into the light the factors which are uniting us. That should be. That’s the main thing, uniting us. And [not] the dogmas and things you see which are making us hate each other.
Sahaja Yogi: The first community is to be called John 23rd perhaps, and…
Shri Mataji: What?
Sahaja Yogi: John 23rd after Pope John 23rd, who said we should emphasize that which we have in common rather than that which will separate us. It’s that, would You feel that is inconsistent with what You were saying?
Shri Mataji: I think, you see, as it is, it’s all right with Popes, but you know what has happened. John is different. I mean, he was unique. I must say, John was unique. But people see Pope as something, you see, really, a dynasty coming out. Like we can say Adi Shankaracharya was unique. Then all the other shankaracharyas now are horrid people, we cannot call them anywhere near.
You see, so, the Pope if you say, as soon as, even the Catholics today, I would say Gregoire himself was a Catholic. He went as a priest and he did all that. But you see, when he went, when he went to Vienna – oh no- when he went to Rome, you see, their embassy was in a residence of a Pope or some sort of a thing. And he was amazed because in the bedrooms where all the pictures were nude women and all that was there. And you see, his eyes popped out, he just couldn’t believe how could they lead a life like that? So the Pope means all that, you see, it is very generalized thing, it’s very generalized. If you say of Pope, it becomes very generalized.

And poor John who was so great a man, you see, was a Realized soul, no doubt. He was a Realized soul. But he was crushed, I tell you. He was crushed by all the organizations and all that they did. So I mean, I must say that you have to give him an importance. But for the whole organization if you give a name like that, nobody will understand. You see, I know he is a Realized soul.
Sahaja Yogi: “Amity house”.
Shri Mataji: That’s better.
Sahaja Yogi: That’s a name that we would have.
Shri Mataji: That could be. that could be much better. Give some abstract.
Sahaja Yogi: Is that a good name?
Shri Mataji: Give any abstract name. Or “Amity of Essences” yes, you can put it. “Amity of Essences”. In essences or of essences. If you can bring the essence.
Sahaja Yogi: Of the essence, yes.
Shri Mataji: The essence of the-
Sahaja Yogini: William Blake House has a nice sound, Mother.
Shri Mataji: Ha.
Sahaja Yogini: “William Blake’s House” has a nice sound.
Shri Mataji: No, but Blake, you don’t know. You see, what I am saying it is as essence, as he says it’s an universal thing, isn’t it? Now for an Indian, Blake doesn’t ring anything, you see. But something abstract, if you talk to them then they understand. And then, because if, let’s say Pope ninety nine per cent like Muslims say, Hindus or any other community will say: “Oh, Baba, Pope, no.” Because to them, John they don’t know. Actually, you see, nobody knows John.
Sahaja Yogi: I was, this was only a house for those who were coming not only out of the Christian traditions. And we would have other houses that would reflect the great figures from other traditions but under the same roof.
Shri Mataji: Yeah. That you can have. That’s a different thing. That’s a different thing.
Sahaja Yogi: Yeah.
Shri Mataji: Because first of all, you must describe the whole tree and then the different flowers. It’s perfectly all right. No harm, no harm at all in that. But first of all, you must know that we are standing under one tree; that is God.

Our God is our Father. You see, this is just to please Him, I am doing all this. But if He is not pleased He may destroy. He’s just a witness. He’s the only spectator I have to please. He is. So we have to please him. And if you have the whole description as a big tree and then the little flowers that have come out of the same tree, it’s beautiful. That it sounds great. So the whole thing should be described as something like that, and it would be very great, I tell you, a very great thing you will do. Very great thing in the honor of religion, in the honor of your God, your Father, [that will be, that being] the biggest thing you can do, is to show that He resided in our collectivity, in our oneness. He is One, and we can’t deny Him. That is a very great thing.

So, I Bless you again and again for this great work.
May God Bless you all!
And the other thing as I told you also, you give it a thought …

H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi