A new book, 'Mary and Lou and Rhoda and Ted,' examines the classic sitcom. We chat with the author, Jennifer Keishin Armstrong.


Jennifer Keishin Armstrong, 38, has spent much of her professional life covering TV and social issues in entertainment. So who better to offer a definitive look at The Mary Tyler Moore Show (1970-77), the classic comedy about a young woman making it in the world of TV news? Armstrong does just that in her new book Mary and Lou and Rhoda and Ted (Simon & Schuster), out May 7. The L.A.-based author chatted with USA TODAY's Craig Wilson.

Q: What was it about The Mary Tyler Moore Show that captured American viewers so? At its height, a quarter of the total TV viewers in the country were watching.

A: It was the characters in the most basic way. Nobody cares about issues if the characters aren't great. And you can see it in the very beginning with that show. They were great.

Q: So you think it was a perfect storm of people -- as you say, Mary and Lou and Rhoda and Ted?

A: Yes, absolutely. It's those characters and the people who played them, and the people who cast them. It turned into the story of a perfect storm. All these things and all the special combinations.

Q: But don't you think Mary could be a little too sweet at times?

A: Yes. But they were reflecting her personality in the character. My feeling is that in order to be this independent woman, which was a new, mind-blowing thing at the time, she in some ways had to be an exceptionally good girl to be acceptable to the audience.

Q: And that's why you say Mary needed a more earthy Rhoda (Valerie Harper) upstairs?

A: I really think that. I identify with Rhoda. Most of us identify with her. Especially younger women.

Q: And Cloris Leachman, "Phyllis," could be a bit needy at times, a bit pushy, always wanting to be in the game?

A: Cloris is her own special creature and she knows that. She works that. She's brilliant and wacky and unique and her own person. She's a force. She loved being in the action. That's her gift.

Q: One of Lou's lines about Mary has become TV legend -- "You've got spunk...I hate spunk." Why did that seem to sum everything up so?

A: I think it does sum up everything but I'm not sure they knew that at the time. That line gave Ed Asner a lot of trouble. He was too aggressive about it at first, and then he nailed it. He had to be gruff, but also show that his bark was worse than his bite. That's the magic of him. It turned out being very special and unique.

Q: Is it true that Walter Cronkite would sail his boat back into harbor on Saturday nights just to watch the show?

A: Isn't that nice? Who knows, but that's the story and I don't think he would have done the show otherwise. He hardly needed to do a cameo appearance. Why would he bother to be on a sitcom unless he loved it?

Q: So, Mary was very hands on. Rarely retreated to her dressing room? Hated when people were late?

A: It was a very classy, no-nonsense operation. That's why they could handle Phyllis, for instance. Everyone was on point.

Q: There was a bit of jealousy between the guys and the girls, the guys thinking the girls got more attention. And that actually drew them all closer together?

A: They were all good people. They had such a good healthy relationship they dealt with it. They weren't mad at the girls. My theory was that the men were not used to not being the main character. The women got more media attention, so that could have fostered more tension. But they were a tight little unit.

Q: Still, Ted (Knight) got tired of being the butt of jokes.

A: Yes. It makes me sad I couldn't talk to him. I think he would have been so interesting. It's this strange balance of hubris and total insecurity. He's full of himself because he's so insecure. But he was very sensitive to the fact people identified him with his character. He struggled a lot.

Q: You talk a lot about the writers. What was going on there? They were bold enough to "divorce" Lou and his wife.

A: How many crazy factors does it take for a show to become iconic? The time was right. You have to be at the point where America was ready for it but didn't know it yet. The writers sneaked into things backwards and made people love these characters and then had Lou get a divorce, for instance. They also had actors who had the talent to pull this off.

Q: Maude, Archie Bunker. They all pushed the envelope back then. Mary was a bit slower.

A: Yes, they just kind of crept up on issues. I got obsessed with the difference between the various shows. It's either let's yell about the issues of the day, be in your face, let's work this deal, or The Mary Tyler Moore Show where the issues come from the characters.

Q: And Oprah credits Mary with much of her success?

A: Yes. I love the idea that Oprah was obsessed with the show. She dressed like Mary. She wanted to know how to get a job like Mary's.

Q: The famous last scene when Mary turns out of the lights of the newsroom had to be shot over and over. Why?

A: The lighting guy forgot to do it (lower the lights), he was so wrapped up in the emotion of the moment. That's one of my favorite details. I love it.

Q: Why wouldn't this show work today?

A: Actually I think it might. I do think a lot of shows today do what it did. The question is, would it be as special now? It invented so many other things that we now take for granted. It wouldn't be as much a giant national experience as it was. It's not as brash as things today. But it's held up very, very well. I'm not sure I would have written the book if it hadn't. You can still identify with all the characters.

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