

Memory bump and NFC may also be added






Surface ARM



II. Fixing Surface -- Haswell May Do the Trick



Haswell die





Microsoft FY2014


Sources: NeoWin, TechRadar, AdDuplex, ZDNet

Comments     Threshold


PC replacement
By Da W on 9/4/13, Rating: 0
RE: PC replacement
By aurareturn on 9/4/2013 1:11:11 PM , Rating: 3
Google can sell its Nexus at whatever cost it wants. It's not antitrust. Amazon sells the Kindle at a loss initially.

RE: PC replacement
By Da W on 9/4/13, Rating: -1
RE: PC replacement
By flyingpants1 on 9/4/2013 3:16:47 PM , Rating: 2
Selling at a loss is not the same thing as predatory pricing. There is no law against selling something at a loss.

RE: PC replacement
By Mitch101 on 9/4/2013 5:40:15 PM , Rating: 4
Xbox and PS3 are sold at a loss. I agree with the original poster however Google is free to do what it wants with Nexus devices if anything it will only raise the bar for Microsoft to deliver something as good or better. So whichever way you go its good for the consumer.

The whole debacle with IE and Microsoft having to include other browsers is just governments at its most unintelligent.

RE: PC replacement
By ritualm on 9/5/2013 1:49:43 AM , Rating: 2
It's not illegal to sell at a loss. Big retailers such as Wal-Mart sell some items at a loss (a.k.a. loss leaders), in the hope that the customer also picks up other items at regular prices.

Video game consoles are typically sold at a loss because the real money is in the content (video game titles). The PS3 initially sold at a very steep loss. Same with the XBox in its early years.

But it is illegal to sell at a loss in order to drive competitors out of the market, then raise prices after they're gone. That is what predatory pricing really means.

Google can sell its Nexus devices at whatever prices they choose and there is nothing predatory about it.

RE: PC replacement
By NesuD on 9/5/2013 5:49:16 AM , Rating: 2
Perfectly ok to sell below cost. It is done all the time. Surface pro has failed for a lot of reasons. In addition to the hardware shortcomings, which in my view are not as great a reason as they are given credit for, is Microsofts abysmal marketing. It is a simple fact that you cannot sell product that you don't have. Whoever it was in microsofts marketing team that thought not actually having any to give retailers on launch day was ok is a damn idiot. A huge number of Day 1-3 buyers are very much like impulse buyers. If you make them wait for 2 or more weeks to get one because of lack of product they will change their minds. That is where Surface pro went down the tubes. There were none to buy at launch which gave potential buyers time to essentially talk themselves out of it.

RE: PC replacement
By retrospooty on 9/4/2013 1:13:25 PM , Rating: 2
"Then they need to file an antitrust complaint against google who sells nexus 7 at cost and gives android away. Microsoft got blamed far more for only bundling internet explorer."


MS needs to lower their price and/or figure out ways to build it cheaper. Dont slam a company that is putting out great things at great prices and dont encourage any more ridiculous lawsuits. The Nexus 7 2013 is awesome.

RE: PC replacement
By Reclaimer77 on 9/4/2013 1:14:59 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah we really need more silly tech lawsuits where the consumer is the ultimate loser.

So Google needs to be sued because you like the Surface. Go screw off.

RE: PC replacement
By crispbp04 on 9/4/2013 1:30:37 PM , Rating: 1
I own a surface pro and RT, and I believe in RT, I think that the timing was bad. If they would have started with RT 8.1 it would have been well received with 2ghz+ snapdragon and 1080p like surface pro. I prefer arm over atom any day. I've used clovertrail tabs and the experience is worse than RT. The average consumer will benefit greatly from the elimination of win32 and unmanaged code.

RE: PC replacement
By dgingerich on 9/4/2013 2:38:49 PM , Rating: 2
Amen to that. I have my main PC and a Dell XPS 10 RT tablet. That Dell has an extra battery in the keyboard dock, giving me over 10 hours of battery life. It's great!

Now if they'd just add drivers for USB to Serial adapters so I could use it to talk to raid arrays and switches at work, I'd have a complete replacement for my work laptop. I hate undocking my work laptop just to setup a switch or raid array.

RE: PC replacement
By Labotomizer on 9/4/2013 7:44:12 PM , Rating: 3
And therein lies the beauty of the Surface Pro, which is what I've got. 12 hours in a data center bringing up firewalls and switches? Plug in the Surface Pro, USB to Serial and, after a point, USB to Ethernet and you're golden. And because of the size you can sit it in a cabinet and have room for a Bluetooth mouse next to it. It's pretty amazing.

My "laptop", which is an Elitebook quad core i7 with 16GB of memory, stays at the office. I connect to it remotely for VMs, test environments, etc. But my Surface is the only thing I travel with now.

RE: PC replacement
By flyingpants1 on 9/4/2013 11:57:59 PM , Rating: 2
Cool, so that appeals to what, 5% of the population tops?

RE: PC replacement
By w8gaming on 9/5/2013 3:31:22 AM , Rating: 2
A surface RT with its current dismal situation in the app store, and lack of 3G connectivity, appeals only to people who wants to use Office on a tablet device. That percentage is not great. If one wants to play music or video, iPad and Android fares way better than what Surface RT can do. Microsoft has a lot of things to catch up with.

RE: PC replacement
By damianrobertjones on 9/5/2013 4:07:24 AM , Rating: 2
"current dismal situation in the app store"

Oh, that one again. Have you even looked through the app store?

RE: PC replacement
By domboy on 9/5/2013 8:47:14 AM , Rating: 3
My problem with RT isn't the app store, as since it has a fully functional desktop browser, with flash, all the web page replacement apps aren't necessary. Same with all the apps for facebook games and the like (assuming you have wifi connection). My problems with RT are 1. the locked out desktop (no non-Microsoft apps), and 2. I'm not convinced "modern ui" is a good replacement gui for the desktop. WinRT applications really need to be able to run in a desktop window mode. The big selling point of the Surface devices is they are convertibles, both tablet and laptop, possibly even desktop replacement. Surface Pro works, especially with Haswell. Surface RT with the jailbreak also works, but out of the box it doesn't.

RE: PC replacement
By Mint on 9/4/2013 2:00:58 PM , Rating: 4
I was with you until the silly antitrust comment. Google telling MS to stop offering its Win8 YouTube app while also refusing to make one itself is antitrust. Google offering cheap tablets is not.

But yeah, Windows on ARM has no future as long as Intel doesn't overcharge for Silvermont. And you're right that power consumption (resulting in high weight for cooling and low battery life) is what hurt Surface Pro. Haswell will fix it.

RE: PC replacement
By Reclaimer77 on 9/4/2013 6:04:09 PM , Rating: 1


It would be really nice if people knew what Anti-trust laws were. The only anti-trust law this would apply to would be preventing monopolies and the abuse of monopoly power.

Since YouTube is on the web, it's impossible for Google to monopolize access to it. Unless it were to become a private service, of course. YouTube itself hardly has a monopoly on user-driver internet media streaming either. So what abuse of power is happening here exactly?

Also where in anti-trust laws is it written that Google MUST allocate resources, which costs them money, to create an app for Windows Phone which has no chance of returning them a profit due to the small number of people using the device?

Every Windows Phone user has access to YouTube, it's called a browser. Microsoft accusing Google of not being "open enough" is the quintessential pot meets kettle. As soon as Microsoft agrees to follow Google's guidelines to the letter, like Apple and everyone else does, this issue will be resolved.

It seems these days that Microsoft’s antitrust division has little to do with protecting, preventing or defending antitrust matters at, you know, Microsoft. The company has been the ringleader of a global hunt against Google. In the United States and Europe, Microsoft has been the forefront of a group called that has one and only goal in its existence: to nail Google to the wall for real or perceived unfair business practices.

This is just more anti-Google rhetoric Microsoft is stirring up. It's shameful. Look I'm sorry Bing is a complete and utter failure, while Google search and YouTube have become totally ubiquitous services in the modern mobile era. But it was YOU, Microsoft, who dropped the ball on that.

RE: PC replacement
By Labotomizer on 9/4/2013 7:47:11 PM , Rating: 2
They have agreed to follow Google's requirements. Google has made requirements that are DIFFERENT for Microsoft than for the competitors. Additionally they won't release all the information on the APIs required to make a WP app that meets their requirements.

If you feel that the suits against MS in the late 90s and early 2000s were justified then I can't see how you can argue against YouTube being any different.

Of course, I don't think those were justified, at least not many of them. So I don't know that I think the YouTube issue is a problem either.

RE: PC replacement
By Reclaimer77 on 9/4/2013 8:04:06 PM , Rating: 2
No they haven't. They refused to make the proper browser changes, and instead re-released a YouTube app that violated the ToS.


Well they have no obligation to do that, right?


Kind of like how Microsoft told Android OEM's that they would sue them if they didn't license patents that were being infringed on, but they wouldn't tell them which ones they were until after they agreed?


Uhh because Microsoft had a near monopoly and could potentially do much harm. I don't agree with the decision, mind you, but the reasoning was there.

How is this just like a handful of Windows Phone users not having an app? Especially when they can just get on YouTube with a browser.

Google probably is playing dirty pool with Microsoft. These companies clearly don't like each other. But an anti-trust violation? Not even close.

RE: PC replacement
By BillyBatson on 9/5/2013 10:20:09 AM , Rating: 2
Windows on ARM isn't dead, it's just not alive. There are rumors that winRT and wp8 may eventually become one in the same.

RE: PC replacement
By FITCamaro on 9/5/2013 2:52:05 PM , Rating: 2
Antitrust? Since when is it illegal to be willing to sell your products cheap? I welcome a company to sell hardware cheap and prefer to make money on the software.

Anti-trust and anti-monopoly legislation has gone too far. If there's only one company for a given market but they are fair, do a good job, and don't illegally do anything to hurt potential competitors (and I don't mean offer low prices), then I say so be it. If they do a poor job and/or rip off their customers the market will take care of it eventually. If they act illegally to stop potential competitors in a way other than offering low prices, then the courts will handle it.

Lower the price
By tayb on 9/4/2013 1:31:30 PM , Rating: 2
Lower the price or the gains in battery life and usability are meaningless. Consumers are just not willing to spend $900+ on a tablet. Get it to $600 and you'll have a hit otherwise prepare for another massive write-off.

If that means selling the device at a 10% loss so be it. Try to make up for the margin elsewhere. The goal is to get your foot in the market.

RE: Lower the price
By xti on 9/4/2013 1:52:37 PM , Rating: 2
i'm down for $900 if it has good battery life and as much bump into the integrated graphics as possible.

basically i'm looking for a lite-gaming laptop replacement

RE: Lower the price
By troysavary on 9/5/2013 5:23:04 AM , Rating: 2
Same with me. The only thing that stopped me from picking up a 1st gen Surface Pro was battery life. Fix that and I'm sold. I played around with one and the build quality is incredible. The Surface Pro is easily an ultrabook and tablet in one device.

RE: Lower the price
By TheEinstein on 9/4/2013 1:57:38 PM , Rating: 2
at $600 it does indeed become a factor for me. A Surface with enough memory would be in my range easily then, and I would buy one for sure. Right now they hover just barely out of range.

RE: Lower the price
By w8gaming on 9/4/2013 2:31:14 PM , Rating: 2
Writeoff only happens if the CEO decides to over produce the devices while the public is not buying. It is a consequence of reading the market wrong.

RE: Lower the price
By inighthawki on 9/4/13, Rating: 0
RE: Lower the price
By tayb on 9/4/2013 5:14:08 PM , Rating: 2
If the Surface Pro were an Apple product it would sell out at $900. It's not. Apple is just about the only company out there that can manage to be successful selling overpriced gadgets. Everyone knows the margins on Apple products are sky high but they buy them anyway.

Windows users are conditioned to cheaper products. A $900 tablet is a non-starter. It doesn't matter if it is feature competitive with a Macbook Air because it's not competing with the Macbook Air. It is competing with $230 - $400 tablets and $500 notebooks.

I like the Surface Pro. It's a great product. My company bought a few to see what they were all about. Besides battery life and monitor scaling issues it is great. But I am not indicative of the general market. The general market will not buy a $900 windows tablet from Microsoft. They just won't. If they were the Surface Pro wouldn't have been a flop. It's a great product as it is.

I maintain that the biggest flaw with the Surface lineup is not the features but the price. People are just flat out not willing to pay what Microsoft wants. The perception of Microsoft is inferior/cheap products.

RE: Lower the price
By Mint on 9/4/2013 6:18:15 PM , Rating: 2
It's not just competitive against the MacBook Air. It's competitively priced against all sub-3lb ultrabooks with great screens. The Acer Aspire S7 is a 1080p notebook w/ a 128GB SSD and costs $999.

A Haswell Surface is an ultrabook (with a high res touchscreen display) and 10" tablet with inductive stylus in one package, an if designed right, has basically no compromises. $1000 is a bargain for that, even if you don't care about the stylus.

I don't think MS is going after the general market. 5% market share of notebooks would be more than they're aiming for. From there, other manufacturers can create lower price alternatives that copy various elements.

RE: Lower the price
By w8gaming on 9/5/2013 3:46:59 AM , Rating: 2
Surface Pro is in the same league of competing Windows 8 Pro tablets and ultrabooks. If Microsoft has decided to price it way below the average market price of such device, you can bet the devices will fly off shelf in droves. Every vendors will also complained MS undercut them. I guess if Microsoft has really decided to go at the PC and enterprise market all by itself, and allowing their software to run only on their own hardware, they could start doing that! Or they could sneakily try to undercut and hope no one notices, and has to deal with the consequences when other vendors start bailing from MS platform.

RE: Lower the price

RE: Lower the price
By InsGadget on 9/5/2013 7:56:50 AM , Rating: 2
More than just a tablet.

could be a hit
By agent2099 on 9/4/2013 2:44:20 PM , Rating: 2
Many of us are waiting on a convergence device. A device that is small and light like a tablet, has great battery life for plane rides, yet does real computing work.

Right now we have the 2013 macbook air's. Their only problem is they still use TN panels.

Bring out a surface 2nd gen with an IPS screen and you will have people like me questioning wether or not to get a $600 ipad or for a few more hundred have a real computer. The only problem with the surface this year will be the form factor. I don't think they will have it thin and light enough until 2014.

RE: could be a hit
By NellyFromMA on 9/4/2013 4:30:16 PM , Rating: 2
Their 2nd problem is cost-value.

RE: could be a hit
By CosmoJoe on 9/4/2013 4:30:20 PM , Rating: 2
I simple don't see mobile devices or "converged" devices replacing laptops and desktops, especially when it comes to content creation. I have a WinRT device and have used iPads as well. They are great for sitting on a plane and passing time, as e-book readers, web browsers, etc. They are _awful_ for composing emails, unless you dock the device and then pull out a decent sized keyboard and mouse. I have a 27" monitor at home. Why on earth - given the choice - would I game or create documents on a tiny tiny mobile device screen.

RE: could be a hit
By InsGadget on 9/5/2013 8:00:09 AM , Rating: 2
Hook the Surface Pro up to that monitor. Since it is, after all, a computer.

RE: could be a hit
By troysavary on 9/5/2013 8:20:52 AM , Rating: 2
The typing experience on a Surface with the type cover is as good as most laptops. Not sure why it would be awful for composing an e-mail.

RE: could be a hit
By Helbore on 9/5/2013 12:33:11 PM , Rating: 3
You're missing the point; why buy a tablet for its long battery life and simple media consumption, a laptop for working on-the-go and a desktop PC for gaming or some involved content creation - when instead you can buy a Surface Pro 2 which will (hopefully, if things pan out as the rumours suggest they might);

1. As thin and light as a tablet, with as much battery life,

2. Capable of attaching to varying types of keyboard docks so it can be used as a laptop for your mobile working.

3. Have inductive charging, Bluetooth and WiDi, meaning you can simply drop it in front of your 27" monitor and it becomes a full desktop PC without you even plugging a single wire into it.

One device for ~$1000 that does the work of three devices that would also probably cost around 50% more combined. That's a fantastic proposition.

Whether the Pro 2 will deliver on that promise is another matter and we won't know the answer to that until its out in the wild. But its plainly obvious what Microsoft's intentions are. They just need to get the hardware right AND actually sell this idea to people who haven't realised it.

Why have a PC and an iPad, when you can just have a PC that costs less and does everything the other two do in one device?

RE: could be a hit
By damianrobertjones on 9/5/2013 4:10:27 AM , Rating: 2
WHY on earth would you buy a $600 iPad when there's machines like the Dell Latitude 10, Lenovo tablet 2, etc?

Their vs. There
By aurareturn on 9/4/2013 1:02:04 PM , Rating: 2
Jason, found a grammar mistake in the article.

Also, Surface 2 is also destined to fail like its predecessor. Microsoft is just past the "cool" factor for consumers and people have a distant dislike for Windows 8.

Microsoft is way too late to the game. If they want to succeed, they should really innovate and completely change the tablet market with something ground breaking - not something that's worse and more expensive than what's out there.

Microsoft Office is going to save you.

I have no idea why MS execs thought the Surface would succeed.

RE: Their vs. There
By w8gaming on 9/4/2013 2:34:06 PM , Rating: 2
Lots of people are comparing the sales units of surface pro vs iPad or Nexus 7 and said it has flopped. Using the same argument we can compare the number of burgers sold in a quarter to iPad or Nexus 7 and said both iPad and Nexus 7 has flopped big time. They are not even in the same price range so comparison is mostly meaningless.

RE: Their vs. There
By damianrobertjones on 9/5/2013 4:11:38 AM , Rating: 3
"If they want to succeed, they should really innovate"

? What do you think they did with the Surface pro?

RE: Their vs. There
By InsGadget on 9/5/2013 8:03:35 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Probably the best example of a convergence device (PC & tablet) on the market right now.

What they must address first
By nangryo on 9/4/2013 11:00:55 PM , Rating: 2
What they must address first is the price tag. Even quite a lot of people in this forum say that they will but this thing even if they cost 1k bucks if the battery life could hit around 8 hours, they are just a niche segment of the market. Most consumer won't bother spending 999+ bucks for this. Not to count that they will be more bulky than adro/ios counter part.

And I don't think intel will be selling haswell at a low price. Look at history, they will charge quite hefty premium for it. And unless Microsoft willing to subsidy it like their xbox or sell at loss, their market share will stay a miniscule one

RE: What they must address first
By nangryo on 9/4/2013 11:03:01 PM , Rating: 2
they will but this thing==> should be ==> they will buy this thing

duh typo

By InsGadget on 9/5/2013 8:07:35 AM , Rating: 2
If you're in the market for a laptop, but also want something that could be a tablet in a pinch, then the Surface Pro is just about perfect. That really is more than a niche segment of the market. The price is fine, if you do in fact need the power. The problem is more of a marketing thing, since a lot of people just think this competes with the iPad or Android tablets. This thing is a full computer; hook it up to your existing monitor/keyboard/mouse and create/consume/game to your heart's content.

Misuse of stats in the article
By Slyne on 9/4/2013 1:00:32 PM , Rating: 3

I expect the stats you're referring to are from AdDuplex ( ) but you have to realize those are based on App Downloads, and RT devices are far more likely to rely on apps than the Surface Pro, so I think you should take the numbers with a grain of salt and especially not present them as "sold devices".

By Obujuwami on 9/4/2013 1:22:13 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with Slyne as I have used both the Surface Pro and RT. The RT is nice and allows me to do what I want in the limited capacity that it can because of the market.

The Surface Pro, on the other hand, is used at work and most of the applications I use are loaded either via network installs or USB stick. MS products (Office, Visio, Project), parts of Adobe CS, and some legacy programs are all loaded on the system and only a couple of them are available on the store.

Needless to say, my usage of the pro is different than of the RT. I have way more flexibility with the Pro and, despite the added cost, people could use these as a desktop replacement assuming the legacy apps are supported.

By piroroadkill on 9/4/2013 8:25:00 PM , Rating: 2
"Sunk Largely by it's Intel Processor"

Sunk largely by it is Intel processor


By InsGadget on 9/5/2013 8:09:28 AM , Rating: 2
It's DailyTech. Not exactly the New York Times of tech reporting.

Surface 2.0 Can Work
By CurtisQuick on 9/5/2013 1:55:24 AM , Rating: 2
If the Surface Pro 2 is the size and weight of the current Surface RT, and the price is the same as the current Surface Pro, I think it will be a great success. There are nearly a billion laptop PCs out there nearing their replacement date and many users did not replace them last year when the Surface Pro came out. This was mainly due to the fact that most people are wary of 1.0 products and Surface Pro was a 1.0 product twice over with the hardware and the software. Now that Windows 8.1 is coming out and the Surface Pro 2 runs Haswell, many will replace their laptop with one. If only 10% of the laptop replacements are made with a Surface Pro 2.0, that will be nearly one hundred million units. Actually. I don't think there is much chance of Microsoft having that kind of manufacturing output, but clearly the market should respond favorably to Surface Pro 2 this time around.

RE: Surface 2.0 Can Work

Oh no
By damianrobertjones on 9/5/2013 4:04:20 AM , Rating: 2
" By contrast the iPad "

Please, please, PLEASE do NOT compare the Surface Pro to a toy like the ipad.

As for space... I'm sure that readers know about moving the recovery partition, reducing virtual memory, lowering system restore space or even, heck, while we're being productive and informing people (Imagine that), disabling hibernation... .

There... LOTS of space back. So glad that Windows gives you OPTIONS

Completely wrong
By Visual on 9/5/2013 6:34:13 AM , Rating: 2
I don't get how they can be so blind. What really sunk the Pro was nothing like anything posted here.

It should not have been targeted to the millions of masses that just need a web browser and a video player, though perhaps a good chunk of those would also probably buy it after seeing how good it was when they saw it used by a friend.

It should have been targeted to the people with a clue, that actually knew what x86 is and knew what to use it for. People that had tried an active digitizer and know they'll never settle for anything without it ever again. People that were buying convertibles for 2k+ USD since before iPhone was even an idea.

Yes, it's not such a mass market, but it's still plenty, and is higher margin market too.

The price for the base unit was fine, even very good compared to what previous generations of convertibles cost. The battery life was also better, and the weight and form-factor better. The performance was awesome, even for gaming to some degree. It was a great device guaranteed to sell easily.

What sunk it was mainly the delay of its launch compared to initial promises or to the Ivy Bridge launch, second its limited availability (it is still not being sold in my Eastern European country!), then the absurd joke of a keyboard it comes with instead of a proper dock. Maybe to a degree the high price of said keyboard and larger ssd and memory options too, though again, if the rest of the problems were not there, a lot of people in this market segment were willing to pay premium prices.

Since when
By FITCamaro on 9/5/2013 2:47:03 PM , Rating: 2
Is 4 hours of battery life out of a laptop bad? Surface Pro isn't just a tablet. It's your PC if you want it to be.

Mick Fluff - Anti-Intel crusade
By BSMonitor on 9/5/2013 10:05:06 AM , Rating: 1
LMAO - Intel is to blame??

Or the fact that NO tablet other than iPad's sell in mass??

Or that you have no clue what you are talking about. Why would IVB compete against ARM? Why would Surface Pro be strictly about battery life?

Comparing a productivity tablet vs a Nintendo 3DS-like tablet (aka iPad, Nexus, ARM powered device) ?? Really??

You are truly in the wrong line of work. What a joke of an article.

Whoooo oohhhh, my gaming laptop gets HORRIBLE battery life compared to a Chromebook or tablet!! Whoooo news story of the day!! Damn those 60FPS and X.264 conversions...

What absolutely horrible journalism.

