

California launches the nation's largest energy efficiency plan








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Good luck, CA...
By quiksilvr on 9/25/2009 5:10:16 PM , Rating: -1
They can do these two simple steps and can achieve their goal:

1) Replace every incandescent light bulb with a CFL bulb
2) Replace every POS air filter everywhere with this:

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Spuke on 9/25/2009 5:23:35 PM , Rating: 2
Replace every POS air filter everywhere with this:
Do these work well? I'm interested in buying them.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By quiksilvr on 9/25/2009 8:55:11 PM , Rating: 2
Try them out, you can get a 10 pack from Costco for under 10 bucks.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By mindless1 on 9/26/2009 6:02:47 PM , Rating: 2
They are crap. Not as good at filtering as a pleated fiber-cloth type or a real electrostatic filter.

Even so, they reduce airflow enough that they end up permanently bowed in the direction of airflow.

On the other hand, if you feel like washing them out once a month they will defintely reduce filter costs over the life of the system, so there is that $avings in their favor if you don't mind owning two or an additional fiber filter to install while the washable one is out being washed and air drying.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Dorkyman on 9/27/2009 3:10:56 PM , Rating: 3
Found an article that says it doesn't make much difference how efficient the filters are unless you run your fan 24/7.

The Canadian article, which appears to be pretty well-written and unbiased, goes on to say that you create a "dust cloud" in the house whereever you go. Better to just stay in bed...

Two ways to reduce particulate matter are to keep pets outside, and remove shoes upon entering.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By goku on 9/25/2009 5:37:23 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah but you can have people clean their existing air filter for free and it'd have pretty close to the same effect. (Lots of people have dirty air filters and never clean them)

RE: Good luck, CA...
By sigmatau on 9/25/2009 5:44:31 PM , Rating: 2
1. We need something better. CFLs are extremely dangerous when you break one due to the nice cloud of mercury that you release. I have CFLs but I am looking to replace all of them. And the light is horrible that comes out of them.

2. Not a HEPA filter. That is a big FAIL for me. 91% compared to 99.9% (HEPA) is crazy bad.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By quiksilvr on 9/25/2009 8:54:43 PM , Rating: 2
1) I agree. LEDs are the future, but they are still aren't ready for effective commercial use. CFLs however are a much better alternative to incandescent. And I'm not sure what you mean by the light is "horrible". If you are a fan of white light, Sylvania makes great bulbs. Anything else you can get from COSTCO. 10 pack for 7-8 bucks ain't bad. Also they have been cutting down on the mercury, so if it breaks, you won't be in any immediate danger (unless you inhale it). Just be sure to open the windows and start the AC in that room to flush it out.

2) Can you wash a HEPA filter every month for 10 years? Don't get me wrong, those filters are great, but they aren't long lasting. And 91 vs 98 isn't crazy bad. Its just not as good. I'm pretty sure its better than what most people have in their house.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Noliving on 9/25/2009 11:34:45 PM , Rating: 2
LED's may not be effective for buisness yet but they are effective for home use.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Noliving on 9/25/2009 11:35:04 PM , Rating: 2
Why isn't there an edit button?

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Samus on 9/26/2009 5:20:52 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, CFL's have mercury, but they contain far less mercury than that of which is exhausted into the atmosphere in comparison to how much more power an incandecent bulb uses over the CFL's typical lifespan.

And how many CFL's have you actually broken open? When mind break, they typically come loose at the base via wiring, just kind of dangling. They don't actually 'pour' any toxic fumes out...I guess if one were to completely shatter, but just be a little more careful. A normal bulb shattering is just as dangerous! Glass in the feets! ohh noes!

RE: Good luck, CA...
By mindless1 on 9/26/2009 6:07:05 PM , Rating: 2
The typical failure mode is an internal transistor shorting out. Breaking the tube would be a very clumsy thing to do and not particularly hazardous unless you handle the glass with bare hands.

It's the classic argument, which is more dangerous... having mercury in the environment originally and having it get into ground water, or having it mined, trapped inside of glass tubes where it comes in contact with nothing, usually.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By mindless1 on 9/26/2009 6:09:22 PM , Rating: 2
I would tend to disagree, in business use you reduce cost of replacement labor while a homeowner doesn't bill themselves for replacement, and in a business the light is more likely to stay on all the time recouping electrical costs while in an energy conscious home the lights are turned off when nobody is in the room.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Lord 666 on 9/26/2009 12:33:46 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, putting the A/C on would circulate the mercury more into your HVAC system. Opening windows and leaving area for 15-30 minutes is the best. After that, blot it up with a wet sponge or mop. Depending on the surface it broke on (carpet versus hard) the treatment is different. Carpet would require several treatments.

Vacuuming is the worst thing you can do as it atomizes the mercury. Even using a dust pan and broom is bad as it kicks up the dust.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By mindless1 on 9/26/2009 6:16:26 PM , Rating: 3
LOL @ evacuating the area just because a little bulb broke.

If you think opening the windows or leaving is important you are accepting it must have been atomized, so vacuuming is no different.

You're far more likely to get a larger dose of mercury from simply eating fish, there's little point being paranoid about light bulbs.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By sigmatau on 9/26/2009 1:50:56 AM , Rating: 3
1. Most if not all CFLs light is not soft like incadecent.

2. I'm sorry but 91% is garbage. You can put a towel up and it will do about the same. 98% is not what a HEPA filter cleans.

"HEPA filters, by definition, remove at least 99.97% of airborne particles 0.3 micrometers (µm) in diameter" -source: Wiki

Leaving 9% of particles in the air per pass vs .03% is a crazy huge difference. I think many of the filters existing before HEPA were better than this. You would need to pass the air 4 times on your filter to get the same results as what a HEPA filter does in one pass. Sorry, if a vacuum cleaner can do this, then a air filter must be able to do it.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By quiksilvr on 9/26/2009 4:17:18 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, for 6 months to a year. Then that 99.97% drops. I'd rather get 91% for a decade. And, as I said, compared to what most people have in their AC is no where near as good, I'd say a MERV 8 filter that can be washed and reused over and over for 10 years is pretty damn good.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Samus on 9/26/2009 4:59:36 PM , Rating: 3
It isn't neccessarily unhealthy to breath 'dust.' Infact, some medical research provides evidence the peanut allergy (and many other allergies) develope during infancy thru early childhood years when living in 'too clean' of an environment.

Which explains why, genetically, farm-cultured civilizations virtually never have allergies or rejection of food.

Breath some dust, just not pollution.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By mindless1 on 9/26/2009 6:19:52 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, no. The 99.97 does not drop, the filter gets ever more clogged and filters even better, BUT it constricts airflow too much beyond a point and is more likely to be deformed away from the duct slot or gaskets so the dirty air simply flows around it rather than through it.

91% for a decade is not good. That's a ton of crap building up in the ductwork and a lot more perpetual dust everywhere in the home. What is needed instead is simply 100% recyclable paper fiber filters, and of course recycling programs that do so.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By tmouse on 9/28/2009 8:16:32 AM , Rating: 4
While you are technically correct, the reality is any gaps formed do in fact drastically decrease the filtration since most of the air will take the route of least resistance.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By mindless1 on 10/1/2009 12:23:03 PM , Rating: 2
Uhh, didn't I mention that?

I wouldn't agree that it's "most" though, when you have a large duct and the gap is a narrow constriction you will still have sufficient negative pressure to pull a lot through the filter.

Take my word for it, I used to be in the HVAC biz to put me through college years ago. Even so, anybody can choose to put some foam weather stripping tape down to seal theirs better if they so desire, but it is not a standard feature on the base units most often installed in homes (yet easily added yourself if you aren't allergic to grabbing a screwdriver and mallet to pull the duct apart, apply it then beat it back together again.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By MicahK on 9/28/2009 2:06:13 PM , Rating: 2
The amount of mercury in a CFLs glass tubing is minute; each Project Porchlight CFL bulb contains 2.5 mg of mercury, about the size of a period at the end of a sentence. By comparison, watch batteries and four-foot fluorescent tubes contain about 25 mg, older home thermostats contain 500 mg, and older dental fillings contain 100 to 500 mg of mercury.

You should know that we already live safely with mercury - our hospitals, worksites, schools and daycares are filled with the long fluorescent tubes, which also contain mercury.

The Canada Labour Code specifies: The Ceiling Exposure Value (CEV), the maximum airborne concentration for mercury, to which a worker can be exposed to at any time is 0.15 mg/m3 To put this value into perspective, a CFL containing 2.5 mg of mercury would have to break in a room smaller than 2.4 m x 2.4 m x 3 m (7.2 x 7.2 x 9 ) to pose a health risk according to the Ceiling Exposure Value specified by the Code. If a bulb were to break in a space such as this, leaving the room and ventilating the area would reduce the mercury concentration to a safe level in about 15 minutes.

Seriously everyone complains about the mercury in CFLs but they are seriously misinformed, or just don't care to know the facts, or just like the fear-mongering.

Maybe you mercury fearing people should worry about the lead toy your child is sucking on, or how bout the sun, its giving you cancer as we speak.

Having said that, I think LED bulbs are the future. We have a couple out at our solar powered cabin as well as some CFLs and I have to say I like the LEDs way more. They have a more natural light, they are bright and consume very little power. There is still some obstacles to overcome before we see LEDs in widespread use, but I have no doubt that they will be the future's lightbulb.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Spuke on 9/28/2009 4:41:20 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, because telling people to not worry without providing some facts or info as to why they should not worry will definitely stop people from worrying. You know, even if I had an ego as encompassing as yours, I STILL would require you to back up that statement before I gave it any credence.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By rudolphna on 9/26/2009 11:39:28 AM , Rating: 3
CFLs aren't dangerous. There is a miniscule amount of mercury in them. Our cats just broke two of them right next to me (they were racing across the sofa table and CRASH). And I cleaned it up. Oddly enough, a week later I had to have some bloodwork done and there was no traces of mercury. The amount of mercury in CFLs would only be dangerous to something very very small. Smaller than cats.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By Orpheus333 on 9/27/2009 11:18:34 PM , Rating: 2
Thats whats so great about mercury, you dont find it in blood tests. It accumulates deep in organs and 50 years later you have Alzheimer's and don't know your sons name. You're right, it is a small amount, that your body has no way of excreting so it just hangs out.

Its exactly like asbestos 40 years ago...

RE: Good luck, CA...
By tmouse on 9/28/2009 8:23:58 AM , Rating: 2
Please do some reading before you spew crap into the net. Blood tests most certainly do detect methyl mercury and urine test detect metallic and inorganic forms. Now levels do drop in time but hair tests, which are not routinely done due to their costs and complexity, can detect exposure months later. What fantasy world do you live in where mercury exposure leads to Alzheimers?

RE: Good luck, CA...
By 67STANG on 9/25/2009 5:58:13 PM , Rating: 2
You forgot these:

I live in California and my neighbor bought one-- they work . Shaved $90/mo off their electric bill this summer...

RE: Good luck, CA...
By sigmatau on 9/25/2009 6:09:25 PM , Rating: 2
That's nice and all but it does not work in the South or where it is humid. That type of cooling is only useful for very dry climates. We hover at 90% humidity or higher in many Southern states like NC. Probably worse as you go further South.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By 67STANG on 9/25/2009 7:09:26 PM , Rating: 2
True, but since the article pertains to CA, I thought it would be relevant to mention. It's 19% humidity here today and 97 degrees. Perfect for these things. Of course, most coastal towns in California don't even have air conditioners as the temp is consistently 70 degrees there, year-round.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By MadMan007 on 9/25/2009 7:04:08 PM , Rating: 2
Unintended conequence in water-poor CA I'd think.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By quiksilvr on 9/25/2009 8:59:33 PM , Rating: 2
That's pretty cool! Kinda sucks that it eats up one of your water outlets but it doesn't seem all that difficult to remove.

RE: Good luck, CA...
By log on 9/28/2009 9:48:22 AM , Rating: 2
Incandescents are already being phased out in the EU for the reason they waste too much energy.

100W cannot be produced or imported since earlier this month. The same will happen with 60W until Sep. 2011 and 40W in 2012. They can be sold till stock runs out though.

Australia also imposed a ban on incandescent as well as a few other countries. It will be a matter of time till they became a museum item or specialty equipment. And with time, as with everything they can only get better

I personally don't have a single incandescent at home. I decided to use only energy efficient lighting when moving to a new house. And the light is just fine! True the light wasn't brilliant initially, but the latest ones I bought are near perfect in tone, output and startup time.

Not a lot of ACs in homes around here.

