Germany and the euro

Babies and bathwater

The supreme court wants to rule on the euro rescue

See article

Readers' comments


Carlo 1947

I fully agree with the German Constitutional Court decision.
Any rescue must be fully under control of the Parliament and moreover the Parliament must respect certain rules of equity. I hope this way of thinking might be exported to all European Countries.

The last sentence is the most important, where the Constitutional Court conclude that, for European integration to proceed, the EU itself must first become genuinely democratic.
Great and intelligent conclusion, which means that the priority should not be any bailout, but e true United States of Europe first.

What surprises me is the Mr Schäuble populism, timidly (as usual) supported by Ms Merkel, for a plebiscite. As to say: we have enough of this noisy Constitutional Court, let decide to the people.
Hitler did already that, substituting the Parliament with the applauding masses.


Regarding the likelihood of an injunction or the Court stopping ESM and Fiscal Pact. (Note: non constitutional lawyer writing, but I have been following this for some time, so I'll risk it.

The Court has been drawing red-lines on further integration in europe (under the current constitution) in its judgements on Maastricht and Lisbon treaties.

When the court ruled on EFSF and the Greek Bailout in september 2011 (english summary of ruling is here they passed them, but added two new provisos.

Proviso 1. "When establishing mechanisms of
considerable financial importance which can lead to incalculable burdens
mandatory approval by the Bundestag is always obtained again"

This is included in the german accompanying legislation to ESM - although nobody outside germany appears to have noticed this. The representative of german on the ESM governing council has to refer everything to the Bundestag.


It is worth, perhaps, pointing out that as far as the Court is concerned, Article 125 in Lisbon Treaty (the "no-bailout clause") remains in force.

So will it pass? I think so.

They'll have difficulty passing ESM, without adding lots of new provisos. Particularly since the way the concessions were made showed very clearly the dangers of germany having extra liabilities "forced" on it.


funny thing. Anytime there is talk about the EU or Eurozone there comes up a vast amount of history. Each commentator believes the key to solve the crisis is to know a lot about the past.
The best sentence though in the TE article is the last one. The main point nobody seams to get is, that the EU is not a democratic state with "one Head one Vote". Why should the citizen of UK, France, Germany and the like give up their major voting-power. In their respective countries they can vote the party with the best ideas and after a few years they judge at the next election - that is Democracy. So the EU is just a bunch of sovereign states - and either we keep that or we move to a proper democratic system - any middle way will be a road to hell.



"you have no better Allies than the Americans, who are for the biggest part of German origin, leniency towards Germany prevailed in both WW."

I hope you haven't fallen for this misinformation peddled by some German here who are terribly ignorant about how US census are conducted.

The US census has only one ethnicity for Germans whereas it has 4 ethnicities for Britain (English, Scots-Irish, Welsh, Scots). The 4 ethnic groups of British Isles heritage combined together are the biggest group in the USA.

Of course if you compare one single ethnic group from Britain to Germans, than Germans comes out on top and US census reports Germans as the largest SINGLE ethnic group. But the 4 ethnic groups of the British Isles combined are the biggest group in the USA.

---- A study by U.S. Census Bureau statisticians of the results of the 1980 Census concluded that approximately 62% of white Americans are either wholly or partly of English, Welsh, Irish, or Scottish ancestry.-----


they retain such a pervasive representation at every level of national and state government that, on any list of American senators, Supreme Court judges, governors, or legislators, they would constitute a plurality if not an outright majority. Today it is estimated that over 80 million Americans are of English ancestry"

emmafinney in reply to emmafinney

"Approximately 53 percent of European Americans today are of colonial ancestry.

Colonial stock, which mostly consists of people of English, Irish, Welsh, or Scottish descent, may be found throughout the country but is especially dominant in the South.

U.S. Census Bureau statisticians estimate that approximately 62 percent of European Americans today are either wholly or partly of English, Welsh, Irish, or Scottish ancestry."

diemm in reply to emmafinney


Sorry, but what you say doesn't make any sense in ethnology. Ethnicities are what they are, either you consider any ethnicity coming from what is know today as the UK as an ethnic sub-group(which no anthropologist would probably agree with), or they are different ethnic groups.

Interestingly, linguistically and in terms of ethnic pathways the English are closer to the Germans than to the Scots or the Irish, whose language comes from Old British (not the current British language, but basically the language of the Britons), which itself comes from the Proto-Celtic of ancient central Europe. So, that the majority is from English ancestry from or German ancestry are both correct statements technically, depending on how far back you go in time.

And mostly, it seems, even though I like to j-off with linguistics and anthropology, we all come down to Higgs bosons.

The world surely changed, but did not start on July 4, 1776.


{Yet, even a plebiscite may fall foul of the eternity clause. Karlsruhe may conclude that, for European integration to proceed, the EU itself must first become genuinely democratic.}
Doesn't that smack, just a wee bit, of being an "extra-territorial" ruling for German judges?
The constitution of any country was never meant to be cast in concrete. It is by the will of the people that it can change. If a plebiscite is lost to enlarge the powers of a Central EU Government, then the German people will have voted. But that would only come when all member countries of the EU are asked to vote.
The Brits will almost certainly vote down such a measure. So, any change in the constitution must be restricted to Financial Oversight and Management. Which restricts the plebiscite necessary to the EuroZone.


The german constitutional court will not rubberstamp anything Mrs. Merkel and the other European heads of state have agreed to. Far from it. What happened at last week's summit was in reality a dirty little ruse. Preparing the summit, Merkel was led to believe that the growth pact she had to agree to in order to get opposition consent in the Bundestag was a done deal. Monti, Rajoy, and Hollande had signalled that to her. At the summit, however, Monti and Rajoy threatened to block this pact in order to blackmail her into consenting to direct aid to Southern banks and to a simplified procedure of buying Southern government bonds by the ESM. Merkel was surprised by this move and gave in. After the summit, Monti made no effort to hide his triumph.
It would be utterly naive to think that this will not backfire. Not only the Karlsruhe court, but of course, the german parliament have noticed this behaviour. The court has been demonstrated how easily Southern Europe changes the rules of the ESM which has just passed the Bundestag, and they will try and do their utmost to fix rules to roll back these changes and prevent future ones. So will the Bundestag. Even opposition MPs of the SPD are seething at what has happened at the summit. Summit "Victory" for Monti and Rajoy could thus turn out to one of the "Pyrrhus" kind.

LafayetteBis in reply to HStiller


Then why don't the Germans leave the Euro?

It would so much easier for everybody else to arrive at a solution that gets them out of the Present Mess. And when financial stability returns to the EuroZone, then the Germans can always ask to be readmitted.

Seems like a good idea, no? ;^)

Michel_Berlin in reply to LafayetteBis

>>Then why don't the Germans leave the Euro?"<<

It could be that the latest betrayal was the straw which broke the camel's back.

Once Karlsruhe decides all the fine manipulations by Monti & Co. (Merkel was more or less forced to agree) are for the bin, the bets are all off.

In the end might stay a plebiscite, but that would mean years without any possible rescue of anything.

The Eurozone breaks can shove a german chancellor only so far. Especially as she made it clear REPEATEDLY that Karlsruhe will have a word on these treaties too. But Monti & Co. didn't want to listen.

>>"then the Germans can always ask to be readmitted."<<

Should the Eurozone break up it will be along the north/south divide. Who wants to be in the same zone with Greece, Italy, Spain and even France. Without the rich northern countries to underwrite it?

There will be a new core zone with countries around Germany. If this zone will ever readmit unreconstructed southern countries is highly doubtful.

LafayetteBis in reply to HStiller

Knock, knock, knock! This is "reality" knocking on your door!
You are obviously oblivious to the dangerous nature of the situation. Because German unemployment is at 5.6%, you think all is just fine with the world?
What does it take to wake you? Maybe unemployment at 7%? 8%? How much? 10%?
The economic performance beyond Germany's borders is equally as important as internally. Germany sells most of its exports not to China but within the EU.
So what is good for the EU as a whole, economically, is good for each of its members. And Mrs. Merkel, shamefully, is way beyond her "austerity remit" by which she thinks others should suffer but not Germany.
Mutualization of the Euro Debt Instruments is a MUST. There is no other money on earth that does not guaranty its money in this manner. One can only imagine what idiocy made the EU think it could do so from the very beginning in 1999 when the Euro was instituted.

flyingdutch100 in reply to HStiller

Are there any precedents in the past years in Germany with The Court being able to send such a decision to the bin?
I mean, is there any reasonable chance that the Parliament's decision can be undone?
(As Dutch I hope that Germany would save our a^^ as well. Our judges ruled a week ago that ESM is not of their competence.)

Wilhelm Röpke

Well, TE must make better researches.
"The supreme court wants to rule on the euro rescue"
It od incorrect.
Some of my fellow Germans should read it:


Please Karlsruhe, stop this utter madness!
Please, save us from our politicians!

TAndreas in reply to Gwitreg.

The planned destruction of Germany backfired.



Kind of like crabs in a barrel.

The judges at Karlsruhe are paid by the government and they got their well paid jobs from the government and politicians.
So it is absolutely clear how they will decide:)
It is just ridiculous to believe in an independent legal system.

TAndreas in reply to Gwitreg.


Germany had to be maintained as a cash cow and a military base.
America had no scruple to use Germany as puffer between Russia and France. An of course the battle would have been fought on German soil, if a war had broken out.
The American of German descent would not give a toss about what would happen to Germany. They have learned that just having a German name brought you into detention camps during the war.

Germanambassador in reply to Gwitreg.

I agree with you.
But it is untrue that the biggest part of Americans are of German origin.
Most come from Britain, Ireland and other English speaking countries.
Germans since ever have been a minority and often enough they clearly were discriminated.
All over the Western world there has been a vey deep and long tradition to discriminate Germans as inferiors.

emmafinney in reply to TAndreas

"They have learned that just having a German name brought you into detention camps during the war."

Yes, Eisenhower was in a detention camp.

Even Goebbels wouldn't have been so stupid to make remarks like this.

Nobody put Germany as a buffer, geography did.

And since it was Germany's greedy blunder in invading the Soviet Union that bought Soviet troops into East Germany, take responsiblity for it.

Germany's greedy blunder in attacking the Soviet Union resulted in 50 years of misery for eastern European countries as well when they were conquered by Soviet troops on their way to Berlin.

Now go back to your lies about how the USA used German as a cash cow. The USA pumped trillions into Germany and all it produced was brainwashed selfish chauvnist Germans like you who wallow in victimhood while being unable to take any responsibility for Germany's actions in putting itself as a buffer during the cold war.

No German invasion of the Soviet union, no Soviet troops in east Germany, no buffer.

emmafinney in reply to TAndreas

It is very easy to find anti-American historians who will bash the marshall plan, it doesn't mean it is true.

I can also find "historians" who claim Roosevelt was reponsible for the holocaust.

There is a lot of misinformation on the internet and sadly ignorant people will fall for the propaganda tactics of distortions and half truths.

Especially those who are already anti-American will fall blindly for any lies , distortions and half truths that confirm their anti-American bias.

May I suggest you take a look at the vast array of credible well known economic historians who have a very different view?










Merkel got the two-thirds vote on these matters which is what would be needed to amend the constitution --a the prerogative of the legislature. It would be undemocratic of the court to ignore this fact. There cannot be a referendum on this without constitutional amendment. If there is an objection by the court the same two thirds majorities that passed the law can amend.

There is nothing in the Basic Law to indicate that the institutions that Germany has joined are subject to judicial review by the constitutional court. I stand to be corrected by legal experts, of course.

Michel_Berlin in reply to mwnl



iUmg7QmmeU in reply to mwnl

Actually you have to differentiate between an amendment of the constitution, which needs the 2/3 majority, and a change of nature of the constitution, which requires a referendum according to Art. 146 GG.
The 2/3 majortiy cannot amend the constitution as it pleases, since that would also imply that it could get yet another dictator into office.
If deciding upon the ESM and the fiscal pact is/was in the jurisdiction of the Bundestag and Bundesrat, since it is just a treaty as any others, then the court will respect that, especially since there was a 2/3 majority.
However, the court might also decide that what has been decided on went over the jurisdiction of the Bundestag and Bundesrat, since it gives the ESM such great powers over the German budget that future parliaments might be left with very little to decide on. This later version would make the Bundestag and Bundesrat decisions unconstitutional. This does not mean that it cannot be implemented at all, but its implementation would have to be decided on in a referendum.

TAndreas in reply to mwnl

That is exactly why we have the Constitutional Court.

This will be a pivotal point for the court.






nochance in reply to HyunSmith

It is an excuse to gain time.
Germany (which debt is not that better then others, if you read the numbers)
She Is taking advantage of her position on top of a list, (they wrote) where Greece is payng the money back with hight interest, Germany is doing growth just eating other european companies that cannot have loans at rate they have (very low rate).
Now, if Germany doesn't want to share the risk (Eurobond) of weakest countries, they should quit Europe now. Eventually they will quit later, as soon the game wont be any more convenient for them, because they will have the production export market in their hands.
There is no political Unity in Europe, that is the problem, I am not sayng Germans are selfish. They just play their game like and indipendent country. But please, let's say how things are: Germany is eating the weakest economies in Europe, as it to me seems normal, it is not normal when you play with different rules: If I open a company in Spain, I need to Borrow the money at the same rate. Otherwise, why we should be togheter? to make them stronger?
Try to borrow money in spain or Italy. I tell you a story was on the magazine in these days: an entrepeneur with 12 millions contracts signed in their hands, clean debt record history, not a chance to get a loan of 300.000 euros to enlarge the production chain. That is what means to stay in Europe with the good fellows Germans. In Germany they would borrow 100% of the contracts value. In the rest of europe, somewhere impossible, some other triple the cost.

iUmg7QmmeU in reply to nochance


nochance in reply to iUmg7QmmeU

Dear friend, I was not blaming Germany of eating weakest economies,
That is a fact and they have the right to do . The problem is they play
With Different rules. You mentioned Finland, Holland, Austria, I think we
Can add Poland, the countries where Germany outsource their growth.
They can borrow money from the market practically at no cost.
Greece want to clean the debt. How? Paying 30% interest? No one is
asking Germans paying other people debts. (and rescuing Greece
one year ago would have been much cheaper). But if Greece like in the
past, alone, would print dracma, now they can’t because of Europe.
So, it is all about what is convenient or not. Because USA have one soul,
One identity. Europe may be not. So we should ask to the Germans:
Is it more convenient for you to stay in Europe and share some risk
(Eurobond) eventually pay the money like before you where here, or
Consider to quit? How to ask for real to the people? Simply threaten to
Quit. France and Italy should do now. Because Greece they do not
Have the strength to do, but France and Italy could. Then the Germans
Should seriously and honestly consider if would be better to quit or to
stay with different conditions, “Eurobonds”. But I am afraid that they will
stay until they can take vantage of their position. Some point they will
quit, after doubled their production capacity. This will happen if you don’t
share the risk of being European. Stronger then now, but what price to pay? For the all world.

TAndreas in reply to nochance

It is the German Government that forced the Euro upon us and it the Government that is trying to make us a federal state of the United States of Europe.

If Germans had been asked in a referendum, they would have never given up the DM.

nochance in reply to TAndreas

I belive you. Same with most of the people in Europe. Probably it is all about financial and industrial power. But explane that to the Greek people, they have lost even the hope, meantime in Germany people is sending fax. While Merkel and name Monti just
coldly resumed "it is their fault"

la.výritý in reply to nochance

GoldmanSachs' announcement early 2010 of Greece's factual bankruptcy, combined with the market's realization how useless E.U.'s supervisory bodies actually are, became the beginning of a "market panic" which is impossible now to control without either radically reducing the national debt levels - or through forming a Eurozone-Federation under forfeiture of national sovereignty.

la.výritý in reply to nochance




nochance in reply to la.výritý

The nice people of Germany, with all due and truly respect, they do not give, they take eventually. They benefit of the postion on top of the list ("the list", seems to be not so correct anyway).
Now Germany is having money to finance their debt (the biggest in europe, see BBC europe debt report). When Greece is payng back with an impossible rate, and competition in the Market is unsostenable. If you want to help your brother, you say to him: Hei! wake up early, sell your convertible, work on weekends an take that money. you'll pay me back every month some. You don't ask him 300% interest, do you?

la.výritý in reply to nochance








Trade is the only thing that can save the euro. Germany would cut the pigs of in no time if they could avoid damage to the regional market at the same time. Am beginning to feel bad for average German the polices enacted now only support large financial institutions and will be paid for in affect by the working class. Unfortunate that it should come to this situation where all will suffer but those who deserve to suffer most = THE BANKS.

Bavarian Ed

Dear Economist,






Germanambassador in reply to mvr36

If Europe has anything in common it is their mutual hostility.

TAndreas in reply to Germanambassador


Germanambassador in reply to TAndreas

Of course the EU is based is based and united in discrimination of anything that is German.
I think the German nation is nothing but a masochist nation.
The rest of Europe has been giggling and laughing since ever about the stupid Germans.







Products and events


Take our weekly news quiz to stay on top of the headlines

