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Range Extension

Especially in the first several years it will be difficult to drive long distances in Europe.
Because there won't be enough places to quickCharge or to swap batteries.

Have you ever thought of a range extender that could be placed under the hood?
A small combustion engine that could run on long distance, or even a fuel cell.
(a similar concept to Opel Ampera)

Where does that 12Volt draw its power? Some sort of ICE generator?

Lemme see if I have this right;
You want to take the 12 volt cigarette lighter, which is powered by the main battery, and plug that back INTO the main battery to extend it's range?

That how that sounded to me, but it is so stupid, that I can't believe that is what he meant.

It seems, that most of the bloggers do not apreciate the idea of range extender. Probabely because of the idea to have a pure electric car without CO2 Pollution. You're something like hardcore-electric-fans.
What if somebody wants to combine both advantages:
Having a clean car for the everiday-use driven by electricity and for longer trips having a "almost clean" car with a combustion range extender.
I don't want to stay over twice, when I drive to Spain in holiday and the same on the way back, if so i'm spending my holiday with staying over to charge. And I don't want to have a second car just for holidays.
I know that lot of Europeans think the same way and so do Americans who drive through from NY to Miami, changing driver at every fuelstop.
You have to reach these people if you really want to do something for the environement. And you can reach them, if your car has a "unlimitet" range as combustion cars have.
Ohterwise you only reach entusiasts.

Further more Model S could normally be equipped with the small battery pack, this way the car is lighter and therefore even more oecological. By the way could the same amount of Litium be used for 3 cars to further increase the oecology.

Gas an EV cars have basically the same range. The only difference is in the place you can refuel and how long it takes. Eventually, there will be enough places to refuel. The problem is the time it takes to refuel: minutes vs. hours.

You double the complexity of the power setup, and drastically cut the electric-only range, and end up getting crappy mileage because the charger is crappy ICE technology.


Seems you didn't read al I wrote.
In Europe statistically more than 905 of distances are lett than 160 km/100 miles. For these 90% you don't have to carry around a 300mi Battery pack, which ist quite heavy.
For the remaining trips that last longer I'm talking about a range-extender:
I'm thinking of a simple Generator, that can be taken away when not used, it may even be a fuel-cell.

@Jacob, buy a Volt or Prius. You get less performance, obsolete design and more maintenance need, but your need for ICE is satisfied.

@Jacob I'm with Timo here, I wouldn't try to make the car something it isn't. I don't think you'll get much out of it while draging it in a trailer as you loose the airodynamic and the light design and what not. It would be quiet complicated to have it in the trunk because the fumes. And of corse for most it's also against the statement of Tesla.

I think with the Volt and The plug in Prius there will be some nice EV-Fuel Hybrids out there. I never had problems with my prius in 5 years so the added complexity don't seem to matter much so far. I for myself still think my prius looks cool (yep I know I don't have any taste ^^) and I still say that I'll pay as much for yearly maintenance for the Model S as I pay now for my prius (if I look at what it costs for the Roadster)

I think the problem is that people seem to want it all. They hear about Tesla look at it, think it's cool. Then realise that they might not be able to do certain trips or get the famous range anxity and suddenly they want to turn it into a hybrid.

I think it's necessary that pure EVs come on the market... cars that are usefull and you do WANT to drive to change the way people think about them. Doing this 'hardcore' thing has not only disadvanteges like the long chargin time. It also has changes as they can built the car differently. Now they just have to prove that with their changes the car rides better and is safer than ICE cars as they claim in the vid.

This might help with some range with night driving as well:

Actually in some countries in Europe you have to have the lights on all day so you're seen better. While it feels incredably stupid on a sunny day it's actually not so bad when you enter a forest. But well, I just wanted to say that energy safing lights will be more important in those countries.

With the lowered costs and greater ranges of electrics, the days of the range extender, if they ever existed, have passed. The Model S with a 300 mile option and recharge time of around an hour is fully competitive with gas cars for traveling. I checked and the Fisker Karma, which has a range extender (like the Volt) "in order to eliminate range anxiety" actually has a driving range of 300 miles, same as the Model S. The Volt's driving range? Not much more - about 330 miles. Range extender logic leaves something to be desired. All that extra junk cluttering up the vehicle, adding lots of cost, for nothing.

Adding cost to the vehicle, AND adding cost to the repairs, AND adding the cost of being trained on the complex setup, AND the cost of parts that almost certain to be range-extender specific.

I believe that some don't realize that the 300 mile pack can be rapid charged in 45 minutes. That's entirely adequate for all day
driving and more. Stopping for about an hour every 4 hours is not
much of an inconvenience. Once for lunch and once for dinner, with overnight charging means something on the order of 800+ miles per day. Remember, the Chevy Volt's driving range is actually not significantly greater than the Model S. And with 300 miles, the ONLY time I would ever need rapid charging is while on a trip. During the normal course of usage, a Model S would actually impose less inconvenience than going to gas stations. Nor would there seldom be much need for many folks for the home recharging to use anything other than 120 Volts - that's about ten miles of range per hour. Current batteries are still expensive for 250-300 mile packs but they are adequate for long distance travel. The only holdup is the absence of level 3 charging stations along the highways. The cars that aren't adequate are, of course, the ones being produced by GM, Nissan and others with their 100 (or less, usually much less) mile driving ranges. The great thing about the Model S is that the 160 mile pack can be upgraded at a later date,
something which cannot be said for the others, all of whom are using proprietary batteries available only from the manufacturer,
and guaranteed to not be cheap.

Charging 300 mile pack in 45 minutes means about 125kW connection. Sure that can be done, but I don't think you find anything that powerful anytime soon anywhere. Even those "L3" fast chargers have only about 50kW power.

Tesla already has a 240 volt single phase charge at 70amps.

It's not much of a stretch to get 480 3 phase charge to get the 125Kw.

The "fast charge" is to 80% capacity, as the last 20% is much slower to "force in". But that should be enough!

I believe the range extender, external to the car, is a good idea too and there doesn't have to be a "fight" between the purest EV drivers and the people that want an extender. It would be your choice to get one / use one or not!
"All" it would take for Tesla is to add an additional hookup somewhere at the back of the car and electronics enough to allow for simultaneous charging and driving.

You could rent the extender or buy one and leave it at home when you don't plan a long trip. You would certainly not drive around with it all the time. In that case a PHEV would indeed make more sense.

The chances of finding a quick charger somewhere near the end of your battery range (to avoid having to make even more charging stops), especially now and especially in less densely populated areas (like the gentlemen from Texas) are very slim.

In these cases, people who would want to, could hookup there external range extender and happily drive the extra distance.

I don't understand the "attacks" on this idea. If you don't want it, don't use it. I could see a rental business starting to rent these extenders in the future but until then people that want one can buy one. The cost could be offset by buying a car with a smaller battery. It would of course be great if there was a Tesla designed one :)

In Europe where LPG is available in most places, the Extender could run on that or Diesel. In the US, regular gas or Diesel could be used. (Really, any fuel could be used of course, this is just an example)

Having choices is good.

It's not as much of an attack as a wonder of, what's the point?. If you are going to drag a gas generator around with you just drive an ICE. If it was as easy as everyone claims Chevy would have one killer car that would make everyone happy.

Diesel train engines are pretty much a diesel engine running a generator that runs the electric motors driving the wheels with caps to boost power. It gives trains incredible gas mileage per ton.
Chevy can't figure out how to do this with the Volt even tho the tech's been around since the diesel trains existence.... probably because they keep thinking how small to make the car. Maybe they should have gone the other way like Tesla except build a monster SUV.

I'm sure others can give you the kilowatts you'r going to need to run the car on the highway pulling one of these things:

Look at the size of it.... 100kw generators are not small. I've installed these at a local hospital. If you are charging batteries with one of these babies you have to tell the factory because that ups the KW and electronics.
I've relocated one of these things with the gas drained and it was around 8000 lbs and if I recall correctly it wasn't a 100KW unit.

10kw might keep you going but it's still not tiny.

Now remember these are long term use full load generators. Not the little toys you can pick up at the local hardware store.

There is already a rental business for ICE cars. Instead of buying or renting a range extender, wouldn't it make sense to simply rent the car you want/need for your specific occasion? If you choose a modern and fuel-efficient model, you could be even better off than with a Tesla with range extending trailer. The trailer adds more weight than a built-in ICE, significantly more drag, and it has (at least) two additional wheels that add rolling resistance. I agree, choice is good, but if a choice does not offer an advantage over other options, it is only fair to dismiss it.

As someone else mentioned in this forum, once you own a Model S it will be easy for you to find a friend who is willing to swap his gas guzzler for your Tesla if you need to make an occasional trip. :-)

Didn't they build and demonstrate a range-extender trailer at one point? Or was that the t-zero that had that?

But I agree with Sudre: What's the point? I don't want to drive a tiny 2-seat sports car on an extended trip. There's no space for luggage except on the passenger seat.

When my Roadster comes, I'll keep the Prius for road trips. My Prius is bigger, cleaner, and has many times more space than I'd get by pulling a genset behind a Roadster.

Remember that this is all just for the occasional long trip. I wouldn't want to carry one around all the time.

@sudre: you might have a point about the size and I know the battery in the model s is bigger than in the volt but how can the volt have such a little engine and still power the car?

@Volker: I wouldn't want to rent an ice car because I would want to drive my model s...

@daniel948: I posted this in the model s section. I agree it wouldn't make much sense for the roadster.

It would be fun to drive one of those locomotives once just for fun :)

Assuming their stated 45 minute recharge pertains to the 300 mile
battery pack, there really isn't a problem with respect to the
time required, just the availabilty of 3 phase 480V level 3 charging facilities. Level 2 for travel, except at overnight locations, doesn't make any sense. That being the case, I don't see any reason for adding what is basically superfluous and complicated range extenders just to take care of what will probably only be a problem for a few years at most.

Even an hour to an hour and a half for the 300 mile pack wouldn't be a problem. I'd want to eat and stretch my legs at least an hour every 4 or 5 hours of driving.

gjunky said:

"It would be fun to drive one of those locomotives once just for fun :)"

In Revelstoke, B.C., there's a locomotive driving simulator installed in an actual steam locomotive at the railroad museum. It costs $2 to play it. I want a real steam locomotive and a luxury rail car to travel around the country. Too bad it would probably be illegal due to the pollution, and would cost far more money than I have.

David70 said:

"I'd want to eat and stretch my legs at least an hour every 4 or 5 hours of driving."

On my 7-hour drives up to Canada for hiking, I stop for 5 or 10 minutes every couple of hours. 15 minutes for a bite to eat is about as long as I want to stop. I could live with an hour's stop to charge to 300 miles, or even to 200 miles, providing the charging cable was designed so I didn't have to watch it the whole time to prevent theft. And providing I could count on the charger being available when I got to it.

The Volt only does 0 to 60 in a little over 8 seconds.
The Model S will be around 5.5 seconds.

The Volts curb weight is around 3400 pounds.
The Model S..... I couldn't find the weight but it think it's more. I am sure someone can fill in that detail.

The Volt is limited to 80mph.
The Model S is 125mph.

Those are just a few things that dictate wattage draw.

Well... my tablet posted that before I was ready... lol

I was going to add to that....

That's why the Volt can have a small generator to run the car.

On the Model S curb weight... Probably above 3400 lbs, possibly up to 4000 lbs.

I read somewhere that the Volt is very underpowered when in CS mode. But then, cars today have far more power than is really needed. But then I consider the Volt a plug-in hybrid, not an EV. Two years ago I'd have bought a Volt. But now I consider it the worst of both worlds: Not enough EV range, and unacceptable fuel efficiency when in CS more. I'm happier with my Xebra for in-town driving (soon to be replaced by the Roadster) and my 2004 Prius for road trips.

The Prius is definitely the currently best vehicle for road trips. No other "hybrid" (even smaller vehicles like the Insight) comes close. Now some Volkswagen diesels get a good of mileage, but that uses diesel fuel which has higher energy density.

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