What is AM/PM called? has been a popular question for 8 years (+164-4 votes, 8 stars), and in fact is the #1 Google hit for "What is AM/PM called?", and is also linked from the top-5 hit "What is the proper name for “AM” and “PM”?". So as far as the net is concerned, it's the primary reference for this little-known term, which does occur in programming. It stood for 8 years until it was closed by a single user for allegedly being off-topic in 2017, without any apparent debate. EDIT: and subsequently deleted in 2/2018.

Well is it on-topic per the FAQ?

  • Is it "programming related"? Arguably yes, since in order to search, index or discuss a (programming) term, we'd need to know its name, and if something doesn't have a standardized or well-known name, that makes it much harder to reference it.
  • The question certainly is "practical" and "answerable" (there are two well-known answers "period" and "meridiem", and each has their distinct merits)
  • Note that "timestamp" is not a term specific to software either (it goes back to rubber stamps), yet few would argue "timestamp" is not software-related.
  • Is it on-topic per the FAQ? The case could be made it doesn't explicitly fit the list of "on-topic" ("practical" and "answerable" yet arguably not specifically a "programming problem"), but neither does it fit any of the "off-topic examples". So, depending on how you read the above, the FAQ is either mute or somewhat positive that it's on-topic.
  • There are two related MetaSO questions, not that they draw any distinction between programming-related terms (arguably on-topic) vs general word-choice/how-should-I-name-my-DB-column/thesaurus, so they seem to be too vague and emotive to be definitive reference:
  • As a meta-meta-question, does the SO FAQ need modifying to add an explicit line saying "Questions about terminology directly related to programming are on-topic, but questions about naming objects or non-programming word choices are off-topic"?

Let's discuss (EDIT: both the closing and subsequent deletion). Please keep answers fact-based and include citations where possible.

  • 4
    The question is closed. How does that impair its usefulness? Note that it got closed after attracting yet another not so great answer. Thus wasting people's, who review these things, time. – Stephen Rauch Feb 16 '18 at 2:53
  • 12
    The list of off-topic examples simply doesn't matter unless the question also fits the on-topic criteria. If it's not explicitly on-topic, then it is by definition off-topic. The list of off-topic examples is meant to cover things that would appear to be on-topic based on the on-topic criteria, but actually aren't. The only argument we really need to have here is whether this terminology question is unique to software development. The rest is basically noise. – animuson Feb 16 '18 at 3:14
  • 18
    You just basically ignored my entire comment. The off-topic list doesn't always matter. "How do I fix my can opener?" doesn't fall into the off-topic reasons either, that doesn't make it more on-topic because it doesn't fit the on-topic criteria in any way. You should only ever be looking at the off-topic list if the question already fits the on-topic criteria. Trying to claim anything is on-topic because it doesn't fall under any off-topic reasons is looking at things completely backwards, and it's not going to get you anywhere. – animuson Feb 16 '18 at 3:18
  • 4
    since in order to search, index or discuss a (programming) term AM and PM aren't programming terms. – BSMP Feb 16 '18 at 3:19
  • 2
    @BSMP and I never said they were. However I most certainly did say that 'AM/PM'-ness is a term which would arise in programming. Look. "Thu Feb 15 19:22:38 PST 2018" doesn't contain programming terms either, yet noone here is arguing that timestamps are offtopic are they? – smci Feb 16 '18 at 3:23
  • 7
    The only thing that matters is whether it's unique to software development. If you can't convince anyone of that, then the question is explicitly off-topic, and nobody really cares about the off-topic list because it simply doesn't matter - the question is already off-topic because it doesn't meet the on-topic criteria. So... convince us that this question is unique to software development, or nothing is going to happen and the question will remain closed. Talking about the off-topic reasons here is completely pointless if you haven't otherwise convinced us the question is on-topic. – animuson Feb 16 '18 at 3:27
  • 4
    That question actually received it's first close-as-off-topic vote on Jun 21 '11 at 5:45 - it just never reached a threshold to actually be closed because the right people didn't look at it. Nobody caring that it's open doesn't make it on-topic, and it certainly doesn't mean anyone agreed it was on-topic. – animuson Feb 16 '18 at 3:39
  • 5
    And we're getting far away from the topic here, which is convince us it's specific to software development. You seem to have admitted it's not. So what exactly are we arguing about? "Does not meet on-topic criteria == off-topic", let's move on. – animuson Feb 16 '18 at 3:41
  • 6
    Why does the scope of terminology questions matter? It wasn't closed because it was a terminology question. It was closed because it's not a programming question. Stop going back to that reason. You need to prove it's a programming question within the on-topic scope before you can care about what types of programming questions are allowed. You can't just dismiss part of the scope because you think it's nonsense. And you keep trying to attach some irrelevant reason to the question. I'm not going to argue about something that has nothing to do with the question. – animuson Feb 16 '18 at 3:50
  • 6
    Ok, whatever, I'm done. You're just talking in circles here and this is going absolutely nowhere. I have better things to do than try to convince a programmer to follow steps in a logical order. It's a lot simpler than you're trying to make it, and you're ignoring the only part of this entire thing that even matters. – animuson Feb 16 '18 at 3:58
  • 4
    Why are you ignoring the unique to software development part? It doesn’t matter how practical or answerable the question is; the term is not unique to software development. It is off topic. By a huge margin. Why does this even need debating? – Martijn Pieters Feb 16 '18 at 8:54
  • 4
    @smci: it is clear as daylight. You just don't like it, so you want to ignore it. Posts existing on the site has never been an argument to ignore the list of things that are on topic. – Martijn Pieters Feb 16 '18 at 9:13
  • 4
    @smci: have you ever heard of the 'programming on a boat' question? It was popular. It had loads of views. It had loads of votes. None of that matters, because it was off topic. So was the 'best programming joke' post. Popularity has nothing to do with this. – Martijn Pieters Feb 16 '18 at 9:20
  • 7
    Disliking what happened back in 2009 is not very hard to do. SO was not very good back then, I personally largely ignored it, too much stuff that barely broke the watercooler chat level. This was heavily debated back then and a consensus was reached, around ~Nov 2009 it got fixed and SO took off like a Falcon Heavy. Raking this all up again is not useful, it was done. And retro-actively applying new standards to old Q+A did not work very well either. Let it be, it was done. – Hans Passant Feb 16 '18 at 9:29
  • 6
    @smci The "vaguely absurd 'unique to software development' thing" is even written in the help center. It has only been inconsistently enforced because it depends on unpaid voluntary work of users with enough reputation, and dealing with the incoming stream of bad questions is more important than thoroughly searching for old, stale off-topic questions to close. – E_net4 the disappointed Ferris Feb 16 '18 at 10:41

The question is clearly off topic. You linked to the correct page to determine this.

Let's break this down. The page says that in order for the question to be on topic, then it needs to fit 1 of four categories:

if your question generally covers…

  • a specific programming problem, or
  • a software algorithm, or
  • software tools commonly used by programmers; and is
  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

… then you’re in the right place to ask your question!

The AM/PM question fits none of the above, so it is off topic. Specifically:

  • a specific programming problem

No, it is not a programming problem. It is asking what a concept is called. This is a communication problem, "how do I talk about this concept", and you can talk about this concept in the context of a printed time table or when building a mechanical clock.

  • a software algorithm

Nope, it is not an algorithm.

  • software tools commonly used by programmers

Nope, it is not a software tool.

  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

Nope, it is not unique to software development (you can't just take the first part, the unique to software development is the most important bit here. "How do I adjust the thermostat in my office" is a practical, answerable question, but it is not unique to software development either).

None of the above categories fit, so it is off topic.

  • 1
    It certainly is a "practical, answerable problem" which arises in software development. SO does not in reality require things to be "unique" to software development; one very obvious and prominent example: Daylight saving time and time zone best practices +1831-10 votes; 1479 stars – smci Feb 16 '18 at 9:13
  • 9
    @smci: it must be unique to software development. Why are you ignoring that? The question you linked to is text-book too broad, it is now closed. The subject was a specific programming problem, "how do I account for daylight savings time when writing a piece of software" ties the subject to programming, even if the example you linked to is not narrow enough to fit the site. – Martijn Pieters Feb 16 '18 at 9:17
  • Based on what you're telling me, the 'unique to SW devpt' requirement was added at some point since 2009, is generally strictly enforced on new questions since, was flouted in pre-2009 questions, and is not automatically retro-enforced. And no succinct legible timeline or explanation of the guidelines' evolution exists anywhere on SO (as you can see from what my research dug up). Is that a fair summary? If not, what is? There's no point in berating me for not having read things that do not exist. – smci Feb 16 '18 at 9:51
  • 7
    @smci: you linked to the page, yourself, indicating you read it. The text exists now, it doesn't matter what happened in the past in that regard. Yes, the focus and scope changed over time as the community learned what works and what doesn't, and a lot of that happened in the early days, stuff that was popular then is no longer on topic. There are way too many posts to 'automatically' retro-enforce the current rules, we do still close posts as we find them. – Martijn Pieters Feb 16 '18 at 9:59
  • 6
    @smci: as for digging into site history: know that this meta.stackoverflow.com is younger than it may appear, because at some point SO got their own, new Meta site. And the old Meta (now Meta.SE) doesn't go all the way back to the start either, when all SO had was a UserVoice site. – Martijn Pieters Feb 16 '18 at 10:02
  • @MartijnPieters Looks like that one's on its way to being reopened because apparently people don't know what Too Broad means. Might need to historically lock that question. – Servy Feb 16 '18 at 20:33
  • @smci No, SO being a site about programming isn't something that was added later. It's always been the case. Of course, not every single question that merits closure actually get closed. It takes a lot of people with sufficient privilege to actually get a question closed, and sometimes that just doesn't happen. It doesn't mean the rules didn't exist, or weren't enforced, or still aren't enforced, it just means that the rules always have and always will have imperfect enforcement. We do our best to close as many close-worthy questions as we can. That doesn't mean we always get every one. – Servy Feb 16 '18 at 20:36
  • @Servy I’m not too worried. The reopen review ended with the post left closed. – Martijn Pieters Feb 16 '18 at 21:19
  • @Servy: stop misrepresenting me to mock me, you have a history of doing this. I never said SO wasn't conceived as a site specifically about programming. I did question how the rules apparently were inconsistent on the "unique to software devpt" requirement, as evidenced by what's still on the site. Finally we get an answer in the clarification that they got changed 2009, but not grandfathered. Any of you could have politely said so, many moons ago. Do not assume that all users follow the day-in-day-out SO soap-opera of what's been adjudged off-topic this month but was on-topic last month. – smci Feb 17 '18 at 1:32
  • @MartijnPieters and Servy: closing is one thing, but I am concerned that people have started voting to delete, which is destructive to the site. This closed question should be left as is. I don't see that advocating for damaging the site is constructive. – smci Feb 17 '18 at 1:34
  • @smci: that's what a historic lock is for: old, off-topic but popular questions that still draw in the views and are still helpful, but have a history of delete votes. A historic lock preserves such a post in statis; it won't be listed on Stack Overflow pages, won't be listed in internal search results, and can't be commented on and can't be voted on (no up, down, delete, close votes allowed). Not that that's in the cards yet for the DST best practices post. – Martijn Pieters Feb 17 '18 at 13:04
  • @MartijnPieters: ah that's a new one on me. But if it has a historic lock, how did it acquire 5 further delete votes since I mentioned it here yesterday? Confusing. Oh and it's kinda weird that SO doesn't index it, but it's the #1 Google hit. – smci Feb 17 '18 at 13:35
  • @smci: it is indexed, but not shown in search results. That's deliberate, the vast majority of visitors come via Google after all. Because we historic-lock off topic posts, not showing them in the Stack Overflow search helps to avoid all those questions about why my question was closed while that super-popular one over there is still on the site. – Martijn Pieters Feb 17 '18 at 13:37
  • @smci: and Servy and I were talking about the DST best practices post, not the AM/PM post. The latter one indeed is attracting delete votes. I must say, that with over 8 years on the site, a view count of 50k is really very low. I don't see a need for it to stay. Compare this to the DST post, which has 300k views in less time. – Martijn Pieters Feb 17 '18 at 13:39
  • @smci No, the rules have't been inconsistent. It's always been the cases that the site is about software development. That wasn't some rule that was added in later. The site wasn't originally created to be a Q/A site about non-programming topics. The site's scope has honestly changed very little over the years, and none of the changes that have taken place are relevant to this issue. The post you're asking about was off topic at the time it was posted, it just didn't manage to get closed quickly despite being off topic. – Servy Feb 19 '18 at 14:30

I don't believe it is on-topic.

In the question's current form the example they use is

For example, if I want a user to be able to select a time from drop down boxes with values 0-12, 00-59, and am/pm, I would name the selects Hour, Minute, and ____ ?

This is UI Design. while yes UI is something programmers may have to deal with what the front end user sees is a different thing to what a programmer practically need to know to make the frontend work.

Ask yourself, if you created javascript to change this field on the front end, will the functionality of the code be any different in the backend? in most cases probably not. at the same time, generally you could alter the code in the backend and the wording on the frontend can remain totally the same. think about a PHP Application, what you have in <label></label> will generally have zero bearing on the code that's going to be called when you POST the form

To me this feels like more something for User Experience.SE (which I don't think was around at the time) where it would be better to ask what name would be better suited for users to identify AM/PM, if any is needed (as personally, I think Users are trained enough to see an AM Dropdown and know that it can switch to PM).

Even if you were to think of it as a programming question at most it would come down to

What can I name this variable/db table field/etc which stores the AM/PM value

which is Primarily Opinion Based, even if you provide how you're storing the value (ie. for PM is it false, 0, -12, 'p', pm, etc?) naming standards aren't actuality strict globally.

So as a pure programming question, I don't see it as on-topic. as a User Experience/Interface Design Question, it might have merit though currently, it's hard to see it as anything more than as "what is the definition of _____" question

  • The question title as phrased has zero to do with UIs. It is just as valid and applicable to python, pandas, R, SQL. If you want to improve the body wording, then do, already. I think that's irrelevant since the title asked stands by itself as a legitimate on-topic question. As the answers reflect. – smci Feb 16 '18 at 5:48
  • And no, it doesn't come down to at most "What can I name this variable/db table field/etc which stores the AM/PM value". 'AM/PM' is a field that is defined by standards, and those are cited in the answers to the question. Just like 'timezone' in a timestamp. – smci Feb 16 '18 at 5:50
  • 2
    @smci So, if someone were to ask "hey how are named the characters in this time string at the end?" you'd find it on topic? – Félix Gagnon-Grenier Feb 16 '18 at 6:00
  • 4
    @smci The question title as phrased has zero to do with programming at all. – Davy M Feb 16 '18 at 6:04
  • @DavyM: no, that's completely wrong. I have no interest in UIs yet this field and handling it correctly, in the backend, are important. No, timestamps or epoch are not the cure to all ills: obvious counterexample "Find all purchases which were made in the AM in user's localtime" or "... past midday on weekdays" or "during work hours" – smci Feb 16 '18 at 6:04
  • 1
    Past midday = after 12:00 hours, In the AM = before 12:00 hours. Does that not work, and without creating needless entries for AM/PM? – Davy M Feb 16 '18 at 6:05
  • 3
    And "during work hours" doesn't even work for AM/PM, since work hours usually cross both. Much more clear to do "Between 8:00 and 17:00 hours" on a 24 hour clock. Anyways, I'm going to stop pinging Memor-X with these, the point was that the question title has zero to do with programming in the first place. – Davy M Feb 16 '18 at 6:08
  • @DavyM: no, for two reasons a) I said referenced to each user's localtime, not whatever timezone the server happened to be in b) "Past midday != after 12:00 hours", on a dataset which mixes 12-hr and 24-hr clock. What if the AM/PM field is blank or NA? You'd need to inspect AM/PM first, then decide what the hour actually meant. – smci Feb 16 '18 at 6:12

From what I can find, the best answer is the period.

Unfortunately I didn't find any good references on the history or rationale behind that term, other than that the day is divided into two twelve hour periods.

I'd like this simple answer accepted so that programmers like myself can easily find a standard name for tricky database columns or variables without slogging through the mess of unrelated comments and answers. Don't @me.

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .