Morrison explains border protection policy

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Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Broadcast: 25/07/2013

Reporter: Tony Jones

The Opposition's Immigration spokesman, Scott Morrison, discusses the coalitions new policy to turn back boats of asylum seekers.


TONY JONES, PRESENTER: To discuss the Coalition's policy on asylum seekers, we're joined in the studio by the Opposition spokesman on Immigration, Scott Morrison.

Thanks for being here.


TONY JONES: Now if I understand correctly, you're gonna put a military supremo in charge of everything from stopping the boats to running the detention camps, is that right?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well that's right and it also includes the operations we run up through the region, particularly the AFP, intelligence operations, what ASIS does, what ASIO does within our own borders as well. It's a joint agency taskforce bringing all of that together and then placing a three-star military commander on top of that to form a headquarters, which is what the military is really good at, to bring all that together and make it all work as one team.

TONY JONES: Now the Defence Association's Neil James is actually questioning the constitutionality of this.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well I dismiss that. I mean, he's been on the record for many years being opposed to having the military involved in civil activities. But there is no change to what the military are currently doing on the ground. Border Protection Command still operates in the same way. It is now part of a much bigger operation that connects in with the AFP, with Customs, more broadly in their broader operations with the Department of Immigration. So it is a matter of broadening out as well as having a clearer control and operational command structure to oversee that.

TONY JONES: Alright. This individual military officer will have command, I think as you've said, over - and control over the activities of 15 different agencies. Has anyone ever had such sweeping powers in this area?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, I don't think we've seen a challenge like this on our borders before at this scale and that's why we've made it very clear today that it does require this sort of coordinated response.

TONY JONES: Has anyone ever had this sort of power before though?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well that is really not the issue. The issue's ...

TONY JONES: But, I mean, you must have looked at it. It's unique, isn't it?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well we've seen joint operations in everything from floods to things that have been done in East Timor and in response to bushfires and various others things of those nature.

TONY JONES: But this is bigger than all of those.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well it is a big operation and it's the biggest problem we've seen on our borders I think in a very long while and it commands that type of a response. Because I've looked at the history here, I've looked at what we need to do to restore the policies that worked under John Howard and it needs this type of an operational command structure to deliver it, and frankly, this command structure would even deliver Kevin Rudd's policies better and I'm surprised that he wouldn't want to take it on to see if he could actually make his own policy could work. 'Cause on its current arrangements, with the current structures, we can only expect the same failure we've seen in the past.

TONY JONES: OK. In the chain of command, this military commander will be answerable to you if you're Immigration Minister.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, no, be clear about this. The command in the traditional Defence term, he remains under the command of the CDF like anyone who was assigned to any other taskforce is, but on an operational reporting basis, as occurred for example with the Northern Territory Intervention - I mean, that two-star actually reported through to a secretary of the Department. So the operational arrangements are one thing. The CDF always remains in command of all of the people in the Defence Force.

TONY JONES: Will you be able to - alright. Will you be able to - he's reporting directly to you. Will you be able to give instructions? Will you be able to command the commander?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, assuming Tony Abbott were to put me in that responsibility in that ministerial role, I would have the responsibility for the joint taskforce and the joint taskforce would have a clear mission and they would have assets assigned to it and - with people to do particular jobs and various assets that could be used. Now it would be the job of the commander to employ that consistent with Government policy. As the minister, your responsible for Government policy and its implementation.

TONY JONES: But, I mean, the Government policy is a political decision. You're the political master of the commander. You'll be issuing him the orders that he has to carry out, won't you?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well in the same way that you work on a regular basis with a - at a statutory authority or you may actually work with the department. I mean, the policy is set. It's for this taskforce to implement that policy. In terms of seeking direction, then that commander would seek direction from the responsible minister.

TONY JONES: Yeah, I guess my point is as Immigration Minister, if that's you, you'll be in effective control of a major military and intelligence operation and also in charge of disruption and deterrence operations in Indonesia in particular. Is that how it works?

SCOTT MORRISON: Yeah, and most of these operations are frankly civil; they're not military. The vast majority of those who'll be working in this operation will not be from Defence, they'll be from other agencies in fact. But again, this is not unlike border protection ...

TONY JONES: Well they'll be police in many cases in Indonesia, won't they? Police and intelligence people.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well they're civil. Police are civil, as are these others; they're not Defence necessarily. But Border Protection Command currently works that way. It brings together Customs and it brings together Defence. The assets and deployments are assigned formally and they're placed under the control at the moment of both the CDF and the head of Customs, but ultimately it reports to two ministers, one of which is the Minister for Home Affairs.

TONY JONES: Alright. Now we know that the Army and the Federal Police operated together during the crisis on the Solomon Islands. Would you be prepared to put them together in the detention camps to keep order on the islands of Nauru and Manus, for example, where there've been riots?

SCOTT MORRISON: One of the great virtues of this operational model is you're able to consider all the options, get all the information together and make decisions about what is the best thing to do in those situations.

TONY JONES: But is that a serious option? Because obviously it's very hard to maintain security on Nauru with the private operators. Would you consider putting in military and police force to garrison the military there, for example?

SCOTT MORRISON: Whether it's the best option to reinforce something in that nature would be a decision you would take having got all the intelligence through from all of these other agencies which are not currently feeding that intelligence into a type of model that we have and we've proposed in this policy today.

TONY JONES: But clearly you're leaving the option open to use the military on Nauru and Manus Islands.

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, Tony, they're your words. They're your words, they're not mine. What I'm saying is we've developed a system that can make decisions about how best to deploy things in situations as they arise.

TONY JONES: But you wouldn't rule that out, would you?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, I would enable the commander to be able to use the resources they had available to them in the best way they thought possible given the intelligence that they had. That's the responsible thing to do.

TONY JONES: As the effective commander of the commander, as we've said earlier, would you be taking calls from boats at sea that have intercepted asylum seeker vessels?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well of course not and we've never suggested that. The suggestion that that was a policy in the past is ridiculous. There is a process here. The person I would speak to would be if the commander of the joint taskforce were to raise a question to me as a matter of policy, but politicians don't talk to people on bridges of vessels. That's not how it works.

TONY JONES: You'd be kept informed of the operations going ahead ... ?

SCOTT MORRISON: Of course you would and I'd be taking a very close interest, as you'd expect me to.

TONY JONES: So what does "when it's safe to do so" mean? Have you worked that out?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, these things we've practiced before and the Navy and Border Protection Command in their previous iterations have practiced this before and those are sort of rules of engagement - that's not quite the same precise term, but they are the things that these commanders actually work out. I mean - and what we've said in those first 100 days and one of the first priorities is to get these instructions and rules out for what we could call loosely Operation Relex II. Now, these are the things that these experienced commanders work on, whether it's border protection command and the opportunity to bring in further experience there is always welcome.

TONY JONES: Alright. What happens when and if crews of those asylum seeker vessels are under orders to scuttle their boats when the Navy ships get close?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well that would be a search-and-rescue operation if one were to eventuate and that would be confirmed by the relevant rescue coordination centre, which would be the operation would kick in at that situation. And I've noted in this policy today that there would be involvement and relationship with AMSA in the way that this taskforce would operate. So we're bringing everybody around the table here, Tony. That's what it needs. They are scattered at the moment. If the Prime Minister wants to say, with his Captain Emad solution for implementing policy, well, so be it. We don't think that's the way to do it. We think there needs to be clearer decision-making, greater authority given because the people who are doing on the job, on the ground deserve that. They don't deserve the scattered confusion approach of this government that led to the Emad situation.

TONY JONES: Provided you turn back boats in Australian waters, does it matter at all what the Indonesian Government thinks about the boats coming back to their ports?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, the boats to go back to an Indonesian port would be an Indonesian flagged vessel, so that happens every day of the week.

TONY JONES: So you're saying it doesn't matter what the Indonesians think? You've heard what Indonesia's foreign minister said --

SCOTT MORRISON: Yeah, I know, and we've had this interview I think about dozen times.

TONY JONES: "Such a policy" - no, because he only said it a couple of weeks ago. "Such a policy would constitute a unilateral type of measure we do not support".

SCOTT MORRISON: Well we'll take the decisions on our side of the borders that we believe are in Australia's sovereign interests and we would never contract those decisions to anyone.

TONY JONES: Finally, what sort of disruption and deterrence operations would you be permitted to run in Indonesia and would you extend them from what they are today?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well currently - and as you know, I've been in Indonesia several times and I've had briefings on these issues. Our Federal Police already do some very good work there, but I think they're very limited in their scope. Federal Police have been taken out of Indonesia since the last budget. They have an outstanding relationship with Indonesian National Police.

TONY JONES: OK. But briefly, 'cause we're nearly out of time.


TONY JONES: Would you be planning to extend those operations in Indonesia?

SCOTT MORRISON: Absolutely, and that is based on the model that worked particularly with counter-terrorism following the Bali bombings. I mean, the model of operation between POLRI and the AFP is an excellent one in Indonesia and we're not doing enough of it and we're not doing enough of it in other jurisdictions as well and that's what Operation Sovereign Borders can deliver: actually bringing all that together, getting the resource to it and allowing our people to get on and do the job so we can stop these boats.

TONY JONES: A final quick question: people have died in these operations turning back boats in the past, partly because those on board have scuttled the vessels and for other reasons. Are you prepared for the possibility that people will die as a result of this operation in the future?

SCOTT MORRISON: All of these operations take great risk, Tony. People are dying now. The Government's current policies, people are dying now. There is incredible risk with everything you do out there, and what we've announce today has put in place the right sort of structure which helps us ...

TONY JONES: But you've factored - briefly - but you've factored in - well, you haven't answered ...

SCOTT MORRISON: Well I'm trying to finish the answer, if you'd let me do it.

TONY JONES: OK. Alright. Sure.

SCOTT MORRISON: This policy, this structure helps us manage that risk to the best possible advantage for everybody, because when decisions are taken on good information with clear decision-making authorities and clear chains of command, then you make good decisions and you manage the risk well.

TONY JONES: Scott Morrison, we'll have to leave you there. Thank you very much for coming in to talk to us tonight.



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