Britain's future

Goodbye Europe

A British exit from the European Union looks increasingly possible. It would be a reckless gamble

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Readers' comments



twentyninetwelve in reply to RallanToo

In your third paragraph you say,"If we leave the EU we'll be poorer for a while, perhaps much poorer, and maybe never fully recover."
It doesn't sound a very attractive prospect, then, for the average man in the street, just so that the Westminster elite can get back a bit of "sovereignty", which probably means scrapping a lot of the employment rights legislation, such as the Social Chapter and Working Time Directive, that many British workers currently benefit from.
The basic tenet of the EEC, when it was formed, was that economic resources, and "sovereignty", were pooled, for the greater prosperity of the member states as a whole. This turned out to be the case in the 1960s, its collective GDP was growing faster than ours, which is what persuaded British Governments of the time to apply for membership.

"We have friends in the world too, even among those who hate us." Not sure that I follow this.

"The EU is determined to become an anti-democratic authoritarian federal state at the expense of unwilling member states."
The EU is only the sum of its parts, and all its members have to be democracies to belong to it. Nothing's going to happen if the member states don't want it. Whatever Baroso might have said, I don't believe this much-feared superstate, that includes every other country in Europe apart from Britain, will ever come about.


We can compare this to a children's birthday party. Europe is playing 'Lets Solve the Debt Crisis' from the IMF, but Britain is desperate to be as cool and impressive as it's big brother, the United States.
But sadly, it's eyes are blinded by its ignorance. It throws some paper around and whines and cries expecting its European friends to drop everything to cater for it. But nothing happens. So Britain storms out of the room...
But then what? Do its European friends finish their game, only to look up and see their dear friend gone forever? Do they see it giggling at themselves through the window? Or do they laugh at it, as it fails miserably to impress India and China?

Barthomeus in reply to Cutters.

Now you're blatantly misrepresenting a Newspaper artcile, please stop making these wildly biased claims without producing proof.

The article you are quoting warns of a possible "return" to Poverty in Europe and contrasts this with a lot of poverty already in America.

It says absolutely nothing about Europe being a developing country, that's just your own misinterpretation of it.

What the actual article is about as far as Europe is concerned is that its an Economic Area, namely the European Internal Markret. Thats what companies see when they see Europe, and its what they like.

Why do they like it?

Because it means you get to sell your products to 500+ million Europeans, including a fair number of very wealthy ones.

Don't believe me?

Compare the European Union and United States on the CIA World Factbook. You'll note that the EU has a bigger GDP and population than the US.

Yes - this is the EU as a group of nations. No one is pretending its a single "nation"


Britain is a European country, and in 100 years time, whatever else happens in the world, it will still be a European country. Fact.
Whether a member of the EU or not, it's always going to be massively influenced by what goes on in the rest of Europe, and should therefore be providing a positive and constructive role in European affairs, engaging with rather than antagonising its neighbours.
Such an approach would be more beneficial for this country's international standing, and I believe ultimately better for its citizens too, since the country would appear more attractive both in terms of external investment and as a tourist destination.
All this talk of walking out, repatriating powers, dictating the terms of membership we want or we'll leave, or leaving regardless, is damaging our reputation. What's to say any other potential trading partners, any other bloc we may seek to join, might not see not see us in a similar light?
Perfidious Albion.

Aquitanian in reply to Cutters.


---"I see no threat there, only your paranoia in the suggestion that there is something to worry about. Typical continental xenophobia and extremism at the thought of competition."---

I'm not threatening anyone here, why would I? I don't feel myself in danger. Neither am I suggesting that Britain has to worry about being out of the EU. But yes I am pointing out that you accusations of the EU being anti free-trade and almost anti-freedom is just laughable. I suggest many British eurosceptics need a scapegoat to avoid looking at the UK's chronic economic turmoil and historical contradictions. And that perfect scapegoat is Europe: it's always the neighboor's fault. Without the EU, Britain would be sooo fine. This attitude is at best hypocrisy, but most probably sincere denial, I am afraid.

I have heard your "continental xenophobia and extremism" a thousand times (hey, we are on The Economist!) but do you have another more convincing argument? See, on this side of the Channel, most believe more or less the same thing about British eurosceptics and nationalists in general. It's just a matter of interpretation.

About the EU, I suggest you read this Myths/Facts page and maybe question some of your preconceived ideas about how evil is Europe. I hope this will not cause you too much cognitive dissonance:

Generic Dave in reply to Cutters.

I'm sorry but the Commonwealth does almost nothing except hold a nice Games every few years.

The UNSC is barely capable of releasing a press statement.

All member of the IMF hold a veto? I had thought only the US had real veto power at the IMF. (though I could be wrong as am not well versed in IMF proceedings)

Well I thought he way to run a club that was viable for all members was to ensure that no-one got everything they wanted, while everyone got something they wanted. Compromise among all.

And 26 votes to 1 is hardly tyranny of the majority. If you want to look at it that way what right has David Cameron, whose party won 35% of the vote, and is trying to dictate terms to the entire of Europe? That is tyranny of the (vast) minority.

enriquecost in reply to South American

You are wrong. Many want the EU to be a Federation. In fact, that was the goal of the Founding Fathers of the EEC (Schumman, Monnet, Gaspieri...) and before the goal of Kalergi (Paneuropa) That obviously doesn´t mean monoculture the same way as in Switzerland there are four different cultures (German, French, Italian and Romanche) in the Federation. So will be in Europe. The UK will have a FTA and Customs Union with the European Federation, same as Turkey and (probably) Morocco, Algeria and Ukraine in the future.


Leaving EU is not an option for Britain, the loss from EU free market will kill this country - for that single reason alone, any budget saving is just a rounding error.

Yes EU is in trouble, but once market heard UK leaving EU (or even having a referendum) , market will panic and both will sink. (if you think low sterling is a blessing? only to a certain degree. UK is a net importer, oil, commodity inc pork and daily items price will have to rocket if the pound go under)

Popular votes/opinion is a 'democratic' way of deciding things, but not when it comes to economic policy, I'd rather be told decision is made by experts.

Macky Dee in reply to Carlos Collaco

You need to acknowledge that if the people of the UK were ever asked they would have voted a long time ago to leave the EU. That way, we wouldnt be seen as the "Awkward Neighbour". Imagine that all Brits LOVE Europe but we dont, and never have wanted to be part of one big socialist experiment which we can clearly see now is going horribly wrong for many European people. We dont say "Told you so" because that is not neighbourly, we love our neighbours but what we see is whole countries having to go along with what their Dear Leaders have signed up to without asking. Tony Blair told us that the EU is NOT heading towards union BUT the core principle behind the EU is to become one. It may sound cold to say it but generally most of Europe are Socialist, with high tax, high spend, high beaurocracy and large government. We in the UK are Capitalist, Free Market, low tax, low spend, small government - we are opposites!


Alas. Britain cannot be inside EU and rise to a steering position like Germany. Nor can it be like Switzerland, making best use of her contact with EU in spite of being out of the Club. Even the mean mean God hasn't blessed her with Oil (like Norway). Looks like fretting and cribbing over food, weather, immigrants, French, Germans, Aussies and rest of the World is the agenda of future. Perhaps, "Cute British accent" is the only point, where Brits can still score.


One thing could be added. If UK will exit it is possible that it will leater want to joint again. - I believe it will change its opiion after several years outside EU. However joining EU again (if it would happen) would be possible on much worse conditions tan the current ones. No more British rebate. The big part of the banking business which would move from London to Frankfurt, would not come back neither...

emmafinney in reply to Winston899

Did Britain have closed borders prior to joining the common market?

Bizarre why you think leaving the EU means closed borders.

On the contray Britain will be free to open its borders to the world and have bilateral free trade agreements with USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Brazil, to name a few.

It could even join NAFTA, the largest free trade pact in the world if it wanted too. I don't see NAFTA members (USA, Canada, Mexico) having any problems with Britain joining the club.

The most succesful free trade pact is in fact NAFTA, not the EU. NAFTA has created a Mexican middle class that Greece can only dream of. See below.




Garaboncias in reply to Anjin-San

The real irony is that, a little over a century ago Britain got involved in a war to save little Belgium (home of the modern-day Eurocrats); and that war opened Pandora's Box in Europe and the world. We are still dealing with the fallout from, and consequences of, that little display of European superiority. And now, Britain might be having second thoughts about the wisdom of having anything to do with anything that has to do with Belgium (Brussels). Oh, the irony is just too rich. This time, though, let the Europeans eat what they have cooked...


The article fails to mention that the UK would still be able to trade through its territories the have EEA/EFTA access, such as Jersey. It is also likely that 4 others would follow the UK if it left, Eire (the UK's largest trading partner) Gibraltar, Cyprus and Malta (the last two being Commonwealth members and Gibraltar a territory that despite have a seat has been cheated of it).

On agriculture, this would be of huge benefit as British farmers would not be undercut by those on the continent as is currently the case, and other Commonwealth countries do not supply the exact same produce. Fisheries would get a huge boost, and fishing stocks would no doubt increase.

With only 2/5 the reasons for locating by foreign businesses to the UK being for access to the european project, it is highly doubtful that the other 3/5 would be thrown out with the bath water, and shows that our membership is not a big deal in the consideration process.

Setting up bilateral agreements could go a lot further in protecting democracies, with the UK using what is needed for Commonwealth membership is a broad base. Russia has on several occasions sought such deals with the UK, and the 2005 Commonwealth communication set out a 'Commonwealth Free trade Agreement' over the top of the current 'Preferred Trade Agreement' could easily be enacted.

As for the situation on migrants are concerned, there is already a process of British citizenship. It is unlikely that the majority of those from the former 'eastern Bloc' would be able to afford it (let alone try to or pass) but that is hardly a concern given that the majority are low wage and low/unskilled.

On all other fronts, it would be a matter of negotiations. It is unlikely that a deal that is considered 'good' for the eurocrats will pass a referendum in the UK, so they will have to be realistic, something they tend not to be.

But why worry about what France and others think, the future of the european project is a one way street:

Euro blueprint gives Brussels economic sovereignty over members
Eurozone countries would lose the right to set their own budgets and end up surrendering economic sovereignty to Brussels under a blueprint to “complete” the European Union’s single currency.

In the nine-page paper, seen by The Daily Telegraph, Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the European Council – the monthly summits of EU leaders – charts a series of steps from ongoing financial reforms to overall political union for the eurozone. “The general objective will be to aim for a progressive pooling of economic sovereignty at the European level,” the paper states.

With banking union and binding contracts of fiscal policy, the basis will have been laid, according to the plan, for a move to “completion” of the euro which will “imply a change to the treaties” after 2014.

In the final stage, all eurozone countries will essentially surrender fiscal sovereignty with an “increasing degree of common decision-making on national budgets and an enhanced co-ordination of economic policies”.

baldy 63 in reply to Andreas G.

The tax base and majority (85%)population lives in England, the Celtic Nations are not prisoners, we would still be "family". Although Eire (Irish Republic) has been independent since the 1920s, there has never been a need for a passport to travel between the Republic and the UK.

In WWII and despite the Republic being neutral, over 40,000 young Irishmen came over to wear British uniform and fight for freedom and that despite in living memory, a bloody Civil War that followed independence.

Alec Salmond may want to be an "important person" but an independent Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland would make no difference, we are kith and kin and in times of need we will stand together. We see none of this on mainland Europe where even Bavaria resents sending financial help to poorer German States:”

Commonwealth Games, Muppet, we have each other !



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