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And that's that Jesus was in fact a libertarian socialist.


Yes, Jesus was a hard-core liberal.








My problem?










My point?








It's extremely discouraging to know people are so backwards.


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Ava, put down the matches. If you think the so-called "old testament", better called the ancient Jewish library, is only worth being burned, it is clear that you have no understanding of its place in history, literary value and that you only find your cherry-pickings of the Christian writings to be of interest.

First off, the Jewish writings are a record of the mythology of an ancient culture -- no less valuable or interesting than the mythology of the Greeks, Romans, Norse, Chinese, Japanese, Africans, Native Americans, etc. Why are you so biased against that?

Second, they offer a window into an ancient culture that was very much like the cultures around it -- they were competing to see whose god was stronger -- when they had wars, the losers usually adopted the god of the winners, because obviously that god was stronger. There are clues that the ancient Jews were actually as polytheistic as their neighbors, and only gradually came to monotheism -- that is anthropologically interesting.

Third, there is a LOT of debate, questioning, and argument about what their god wanted from them. So you can cherry-pick the Jewish writings just as thoroughly as you have done the Christian writings, and find some gems in there. There is clearly an emphasis on finding a moral way of life, in the context of the times. It has to be read in a historical context. Things that seem gross, like the lex talionis (an eye for an eye) are actually an attempt at fairness -- the people around them were killing people for injuring a person of superior status, surely that wasn't fair. That we have come farther than that is not a stain on people from a more primitive time. And some of the things it says DO apply to current culture, but they have to be interpreted appropriately.

Fourth, there is poetry, proverbs and philosophy in there. I wouldn't want to lose the Song of Songs, just for its clearly sexual beauty -- those Christians who say it is a song of love of the people for God, aren't reading the actual words! The psalms, although theistic, are nevertheless literature, and deserve as much appreciation as the far vaster body of theistic Christian literature, and the proverbs are also worth thinking about.

None of this in any way implies that I believe in god, neither the Christian one, nor the Jewish one, nor any others, but it DOES mean that I place value on the records of the culture, and it saddens me when I read that someone like you says our human anthropological heritage should be burned. You sound like the guy who wants to burn Korans -- just because it is not YOUR cultural heritage doesn't make it worthless.

And the last thing I want to say is that the image of the Jews in the Christian writings is GROSSLY distorted -- Jesus never said anything that wasn't being said in the culture of his time. Would-be messiahs were a dime a dozen at a time when there was much unrest among the Jewish people. Revelations is actually an anti-government screed wisely disguised and hidden so that the author wouldn't be executed by the Romans. But also remember that most of the Christian writings were expressly written to convert people to Christianity -- they are NOT historical in any way -- they are distorted to appeal to the audiences at whom they were aimed. Paul was nothing if not a skilled propagandist! And most of his letters weren't written by him anyway. Nor were the gospels written by their purported authors. So how much of what is attributed to Jesus was actually authentic is open to much question.

So go ahead and sift the dross to find the gems, but realize that there are gems in pretty much all religious writing, and don't dismiss any of it out of hand. You don't have to believe in supernatural gods in order to appreciate ancient peoples' attempts to explain their world in the absence of modern science, and to define a moral way of life. Even if we have progressed beyond that.

Ouch. The problem isn't my not understanding the Bible, it was your lack of understanding of the topic.


I am a History fanatic. I read everything about History I can get my hands on. It's my Aspergian special interest. I've read the Bible, and I understand 100% its place in history. The problem is not its value as a piece of literature in our historical record, but the influence it has on people to follow what it teaches. Let me be more SPECIFIC, if it pleases you:  I would enjoy burning specific books in the Bible, including, for instance, Leviticus. Again, it's not the book as a piece of literature, it's human incapability of being responsible for their actions, for being gullible and easily persuaded to follow anti-feminist, homophobic, Geno-and-infanticidal, misogynistic garbage. Note:  I haven't said 'Let's burn Mein Kampf!', because not only does it have a place in history, but modern man knows it's just literature from a psychotic drug-addict and not something to be followed on a large social scale; we had our hit and run with Nazism, and it currently only exists in small closet sects of interest-- it's garbage, but it's able to be acknowledged as a piece of literature you read for historical value, and not to learn from its teachings. The Bible has not reached that level. Until people can look on the Old Testament laws and instructions the same way they look at Mein Kampf, I will stand by what I said-- certain books in the Bible are better off being burned. Again, not because of the people that wrote it, or its impact on history, or for any other reason-- but because of the people who read it and preach it, and use it as a fuel for hatred on a massive scale.


And about Jesus-- I know. I've said this in quite a few other topics. The point of THIS topic was under the hypothetical assumption of taking Jesus in the Bible at face value like Christians do, and assuming his existence, and then proposing a question about their current lifestyle. The fact is that Jesus was a dime a dozen in his time. It's possible he did exist in some form but was combined over time with many others like him, on top of myths (Egyptian, Greek, Sumerian, etc) to create the idea of 'Miracles' and 'Wonders'.


So for the most part, your entire post was conceived out of misinterpretation.

No, I don't think I misinterpreted what you said. Nobody follows Leviticus at this time anyway. While it is true that some Muslims are executing homosexuals in Nigeria, they are Muslims, not Jews or Christians, and when they cut off the hands of thieves in Saudi Arabia, again, it's because they are following the Koran, not Leviticus.

Christians CERTAINLY don't follow what they call the "old testament" -- I think Paul attributed to Jesus the instruction that if you weren't born Jewish, you didn't have to follow the Jewish laws. So Christians don't keep kosher, and they don't stone adulterers, both of which are commanded in the Jewish writings. Christians derive almost ALL of their behavior from their own writings.

Even ultra-Orthodox Jews don't follow all the commandments literally any more. They've been arguing over exactly what the Torah (first 5 books of the "bible") means for centuries, and continue to do so. Even they understand that modern times call for modern interpretations.

So, no, I don't see where your argument that we should burn the Jewish writings makes any sense. They are no more influential at this point than Mein Kampf is, and you seem a lot more accepting of a much more horrifying document than the ones you want to burn.

I wouldn't be so sure that such an overwhelming majority of people worldwide look at Mein Kampf and realize it's a crock of shit when Holocaust denial, Zionist conspiracy theories and admiration of Hitler are popular in Arab countries and antisemitism is becoming trendy again in Europe.
Those people are still a minority, even if they exist. Even Holocaust deniers by and large know that Mein Kampf was a crock of shit. Holocaust Denier does not equal Holocaust supporter; it's simply the denial that the Holocaust even happened, even if they disagree with the philosophies that led to its execution in reality.
Reading about how Tea Partiers actually cheered when the idea was brought up at the recent GOP debate that people who aren't insured should be denied even ER care and allowed to die physically makes me nauseaous.  I hope I never understand their point of view.  What a horrible way to think.  I think Rick Perry was a little shocked by the yelling and cheering for that one.

@Grace -

I found an article & video here:

Tea party audience cheers letting the uninsured die


Yeah, it's really appalling.


Seriously, that is exactly why I vote.  People that think freedom means letting people die, that religion "solves" problems, that violence is the answer, that the death penalty reduces crime, that concealed carry means communities are safer need to be kept out of office.  Preferably I support a candidate that talks about doing the work of the electorate.  Obama has only been moderately successful at being able to bring disparate parties together.  That was what I voted for him to do.  Standing with a chip on your shoulder and using divisive language eventually destroys the underlying fabric that used to join us.  Saying "that is what freedom means" distorts and destroys the meaning of the word.  It makes me angry to hear people abuse the word freedom.  The government is responsible for maintaining safety and security in this country.  For pity's sake, this isn't soylent green.  I guess the truth really is stranger than fiction...

The only problem with voting is when you get outvoted by an ignorant, bigoted majority. "Majority rules" is not always (or even often?) a good thing. That's why we have our Constitutional Bill of Rights, but the loonies seem determined to destroy it. I am really disappointed with the American Electorate who seem to be leading us down the road to bread and circuses without the bread (I stole that from someone else, but don't remember who).

I am old enough to remember an optimistic America which really WAS concerned with equality and justice for all, and it appalls me how far from that concept we have descended.

I agree Natalie that the majority is not always and more than likely is not even usually right.  The herd mentality takes over.  Especially today when we are bombarded by information from all corners.  How do you sort through it and make sense of it?  It is difficult.  I need to be more active and get out and talk about the ills of - not conservatism, not the political right - but the philosophies that divide people into us and them.  Divisive vitriol does not help any conversation.  Disagreeing simply to disagree is a grade school tactic that apparently some political individuals have mistaken for moral high ground.  I cannot control what others do and think, but I have every opportunity to talk to people and try to share my experience and hopefully they will see the proverbial light.

you mean isolationist?
and they have a auto-worship the white xtian guy w/suit and tie

the character of jesus was/is a slavelike pile of crap

we're not slaves as much as some have become through the 80s and 90's
never accept that crap ideology of being a conslavative

they wanna save it all for the afterlife?


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