Thursday, October 25, 2007

Pro Death Lobby

In the United States, a baby born just twenty-two weeks after conception is expected to be allowed home within the next few days. Doctors in Miami believe that Amillia Sonja Taylor is the most premature baby on record to survive.
She was born on October 24th last year, just twenty-one weeks and six days after conception. She was delivered by Caesarean section, barely the length of a ballpoint pen and weighing just two-hundred-and-eighty-three grams.

Looking at the statistics Nadine Dorries reported that survival rates at 23 weeks were as high as 40% a fact suppressed by the overwhelmingly pro death BMA. Best practice achieved 66% at 24 weeks . I have met Nadine and she is a bit of a tasty treat actually , I `m sure she is presenting what she sees as a balanced picture. The striking thing though , is the steepness of the decline from 24 weeks to 20 weeks . If we are to take viability as a marker , an assumption I question personally , then it looks as if we are reaching the low limit .

What has viabilioty got to do with it though .I know a ten week old foetus has arms and moves and wants to live ., I have seen it . At six months , whether or not it is viable , I have the greatest difficulty with accepting that abortion is not murder.


Anonymous said...

Can you tell me what % of the 40% of babies that survive after grow up with chronic and dibilitating disabilities please?

Daisy said...

as being one who has had a child grow inside...i felt my child was alive and viable from the moment i found out i was had nothing to do with time...or percentage of survival rate...he was my child...and i loved him from the moment i found out about him...24 years later...the love is still as strong...and no i could not have even considered abortion...

Newmania said...

Daisy you have no idea how much I undrestand and relate to your words.

Anon- Have no figures but Iam sure Nadine will not have ommitted this in her picture . She is an honest woman.

Mermaid of Moorgate said...

I agree.. it is a contentious scientific issue, but I am very pro-life and every baby should be given a chance. With medical innovation increasing in leaps and bounds, that 40% survival figure will not only increase over time, but the likelihood of unoperable disabilities and chronic illnesses as a result will diminish. After all, 50 years ago they laughed at a doctor who attached a man's finger after it had been cut off in an accident....

Anonymous said...

Do you also have figures for the number of terminations that take place at this stage? is it 1% of all or 2%?

Surely if youre having an abortion between 21-24 weeks it is for a good reason. Those using it as a contraceptive dont tend to wait 5-6 months months before doing anything. I think you'll find (if you came out of your bubble) that those whose have terminations in this region do so for a good reason and think very carefully about it.

Ie. they're 13, a subject of sexual abuse and begining to show / a women who has just been beaten up by the father for the first time and wants to leave so on and so on.

Daisy, that nice for you. But you are putting your feelings onto others and telling them to accept it. You don't have any of the information about the people going through this at this time, and cant possibly understand their situation unless you were in it.

This debate is one of peoples values that misses that actual suffering of the people involve (ie you brand them all baby killers) This does nothing but reduces the rights of the needy few because of the values forced on them by others.

The % survival rates argument is not a deciding factor in why women have abortions at this time, but as you quote the survival rates and claim thats a reason its important to note that survival is not always long term and can come at considerable cost (thats emotion and suffering not financial) to the baby and family involved.

It is also an issue in which a parliament made up of 80% men will decide and issue that is 80% a womens issue.

Newmania said...


And if they were alowed to beat their new born over the head as was once common there would be a good reason for that too.This is not an arguemnt .
The time for thinking was prior to 20 weeks by a damn ,long way not that this is the point .

What about the rights of the child ? Aborting the baby is not going to be help the life of the girl you mention , you want to talk about everything but the subject in hand .

Some lives are sad , some are happy . None of this will be changed by any law .

I do not accept that women have any greater say in this than men . It effects unborn children chiefly and in any case that sort of special pleading is a principle that would undermine all representative law.

People in the past have made descisions in an enviroemnt when they were told it was ok. Some of them may now be habving second thoughts but that is pointless , if they know they did what was right as it seemed then they did their best.

We move on from here and try to establish a respect for life and a recognition that the answer tio problmes in general is

1 Not to evade responsibility for your own actions

2 Not to bag it up and flush it away

In the real word abortions will take place and I do not so much quibble on the period.I wish to establish the enviroment that abotion is never never good and always should be a last possible resort about which there should eb shame and regret.

My feeling is we have gone too far the other way and I do not trust disgusting Doctors one bit on any subject least of all this one.

In some ways we are talkimg in code I sometimes feel

Newmania said...

That is all true Merm...I treid to say that i do not in my heart , think viability is the point

Anonymous said...

Whats the difference between a life at 19 weeks and a life at 20 weeks. You cant claim every life is precious when you have a cut off point.

Newmania said...

Well there has to be a cut off point unless you are going to scramble around catching stray sperms. Any boundary will seem unfair to those near its edge but no boundary is clearly wrong .

I `m, not unsympathetic to women , it may be a life disaster but ...killing the unborn is not the answer. Not everything has a happy answer IMHO

Lilith said...

There are more abortions because there is less support for the mothers to be. Jesus. The pro lifers are the same people who think single mothers on benefits in council houses are the scourge of the earth. I think it is incredibly cruel to force a woman to have a child she cannot support (perhaps because she has others, is unwell, is old, is alone, who knows) and then expect her to part with it at birth. Where are the "rights" in that? Very Handmaid's Tale.

That IS what you would prefer to happen isn't it Newmania?

Newmania said...

I`m sure all these things are sad and difficult issues Lillith but is taking a life and ending it the way to solve the problem ?

I don`t anyone group of people are the scourge of the earth , I do think welfare has been harmful in some ways but it is hardly a reason for abortion its a reason for contraception perhaps ...well actually its a different subject.

What about the child Lillith ?Do yoiu belive because it is small , dependent and weak it is less human? Where does that take you.
I am quite stupid , would you clobber me with a baseball bat if you were feeling a bit feeble .

Do you have no religious convictions Lillith ? I`m just curious . How do you judge moral questions ?

Lilith said...

No, Newmsie, no religious convictions. Religion is crowd control. I have spiritual and moral convictions however. I don't consider terminating a pregnancy murder. Any more than I regard miscarriage as manslaughter. Otherwise I would have to view myself and many many of the women I know and meet every day as "Murderers". If all women who had had terminations suddenly grew horns you would be surprised at how many friends and family members you had to cut off. Mothers, Aunts, Sisters, Cousins...Don't imagine anyone would tell you.

I wouldn't terminate a pregnancy , sadly having done it once, and boyfriend wouldn't expect me to, which is why boyfriend had the snip.

Lilith said...

I am sorry N, but the idea of clobbering you because you are feeble is just a distraction.

Are you saying that a tomato flower IS A tomato? (which it clearly is not). You can't get a human without a foetus. But a foetus can't get to be a human being without a mother. Obviously I am not up for women casually having babies removed at 4 or 5 months because they can't decide if they want it or not. But this is not why women abort at this late stage. Most abortions take place well before the foetus is "human", ie. before it could grow and survive without its mother's uterus. Some men believe using spermicide is murder.

I am not saying that abortion is an ok thing. Or that it is not sad or tragic or devastating. I just think it is necessary, as it has always been. Being an abortionist could well be the second oldest profession.

Ed said...

Can't we have a compromise position where "on-demand" abortions are only allowed quite quickly and later abortions are only allowed in extreme cases such as those illustrated in earlier comments?

I would hate abortion politics in this country to get as angry as it is in the USA

Newmania said...

I don`t much disagree with anything you have said Lillith ..and Ed you make a really good point as ever.( yes quite so)
Thinking about the whole thing today it seems to me that much of the medical discussion is code for underlying social and moral beliefs .
I would like the limit reduced to 20 weeks because I think the boat needs to be nudged in the direction of respect for life and reponsibility.

I like your distinction between religious and spiritual and moral Lillith . I am much the same but I admire organised religion and I would like to be more firmly located in it .

I lack the faith I `m afraid.

Lillith , is a baby as expendable as a dog until it is more intelligent than a dog ...isn`t what its going to be , the point ?

Justin Hinchcliffe said...

The BMA has an Ethics Committee which, I understand, is chaired by Dr. Evan Harris, MP (known as "Dr Death").

It's like putting Hitler in charge of Jewish Care!

Newmania said...

Thanks Justin that is exceedingly interesting and I have seen other people expressing concern about this situation.

Daisy said...

anonymous...obviously you don't know me...and if you read my post again i was not speaking for anyone but my own opinion...i am actually pro-choice and am proud to be so...not because i think abortion is good or right...but because is it not MY right to make that decision for anyone else...while i could never abort i do support the RIGHT for someone else to make their own choice...this stance doesn't make me very popular most times but i never hide it and was quite offended that you insinuated my post was a judgement on others when i was just telling my own very special experience...i know it is not the same for everyone...

Anonymous said...

Your view might be different if you had a daughter, n.

Imagine that you did have such a daughter and when she's 14 she becomes pregnant after being raped by a 65 year old paedo. As some girls do, she goes into denial, caries very compactly and doesn't tell you about the pregnancy until it's at 21 weeks.

She then tells you, 'dad, I've been to the abortion clinic because I cannot bear to have that b****rds baby and they'll operate tomorrow if you sign the form.

Would you lecture her and tell her that she must respect the right to life of her baby. Would you refuse to allow her to have an abortion?

Would you 'eckers like!

Auntie Flo'

Newmania said...

Daisy - Thaks for clarifying your position. I took you to be implying a general view and now I find I do not agree with you as much as I did. I wouldn`t get offended with what peoples say on silly blogs ..I am somewhat pro life myself and I have been effected by a long and emotionally draining effort to have children. It was in the end succesful and a source of daily joy to me.

Newmania said...

Bordeline cases will be difficult whenever the line is drawn Flo. It is unfortunate the the girl would be obliged to carry the child and give birth.

Who can know whether she would then want to give it up or not . In some cases there is no happy answer but this girls unhappiness is overwhelmingly the fault of a 65 year old rapist not abortion law.

OK itsa difficult one you bugger ...(always the fly in the ointment )

Daisy said...

newmania...sorry to have disappointed...i know it is hard to see why my views are what they are...yet my own feelings about pregnancy are so strong...i have seen a lot of situations as i am a child welfare social worker and i can honestly say...and this is would have been better for some of the children i have buried to have been aborted than to suffer the abuse they went through in their small short really is a difficult line for me as i know what it feels like and how truly wonderful it can be...but i can't keep my eyes shut to the world around me and the suffering...i do agree with you that it needs to happen at an early time rather than late term abortion...

Newmania said...

it would have been better for some of the children i have buried to have been aborted than to suffer the abuse they went through in their small short lives...

What a horrifying thought , I would find that sort of exoerience hard to live with myself daisy

Lilith said...

Just to clarify Newmania, do you consider women who have had terminations "Murderers"?

Newmania said...

Difficult question L and I cannot claim to be entirely clear on it

Mrs N was born at seven months and I cannot see there is any real difference between this child and the child out of the womb where it is still foetal really for some time to come. So at this stage I suppose the word murder starts to become appropriate if you believe suffocating a new born child is murder that is ( do you...used to be very common of course?). I think the process that the child is still part of constitutes an extenuating circumstance that grows weaker the further along you go but the word “ Murder is in the mix “ yes.
One thing that might be relevant is the cultural context in which the decision is taken . If everyone is telling you that its ok then the person who makes the choice is commensurately less to blame and I believe that in a fuller understanding of the unborn child then the responsibility grows and the word murder looms larger
Is having a termination at all murder , no I don’t think so . It is unpleasant but early abortions and indeed miscarriages are obviously nothing of the sort. I do not believe in the sanctity of the cells from the point of conception , at some point the growing bud becomes a soul and we will never entirely know when and how that is . It seems right to me to err on the side of caution then and set the late limit at the low end of viability. This may be inconvenient if not desperately difficult for some women but it has been too convenient and not difficult enough so far.

I think that’s what I think anway

Daisy said...

N- i just wanted to thank you...this was the first time i was able to express these views without feeling attacked...and it is refreshing to talk with people about this very emotional subject and come to some understanding of each other's views...your last paragraph expressed it well...and feel much the same about the situation...i think it has been made into just a "thing" and not the intensive gesture it truly is...perhaps if the restrictions were in place we would be able to come together on this subject even further and get rid of some of the hate behind it...and yes it is unbelieveable how it is in the states...

Anonymous said...

Newmania said...

'It is unfortunate the girl..'

no, not 'the girl', your 14 year old daughter, who wants an abort the baby resulting from her rape by a 65 year old paedo

'would be obliged to carry the child and give birth.'

Clinically depressed and now feeling betrayed by her family too, your daughter says she will kill herself. You think she'll come out of this - but she doesn't. She locks herself in her room, refuses food, refuses to be comforted and alternately weeps uncontrollably and stares, dead eyed at the ceiling.

You've removed the scissors and nail file with which she repeatedly tries to stab herself in the wrist - your wife took them when she left you...yes, your marriage has broken up over your dogmatic refusal to listen to your daughter's desperate plea for help.

You call in a counsellor who accuses you of compounding the abuse your daughter's suffered and pleads with you to allow her an abortion. No, you say, you're her father, you know best.

In your wine induced stupor one evening, the phone rings and your neighbour tells you that your daughter is sitting on her room's window ledge and about to throw herself on the path below.

You rush upstairs to find a note on her bed telling you not to blame yourself, daddy, your daughter respects you for your


but she just can't live with them.

Shame on you, n.

Auntie Flo

but she

Newmania said...

Under extreme circumstances I would be prepared to murder more than one person for the sake of my child actually . That does not mean it isn`t muder. The case you describe is no more or less like at whatever the time the lioe is set so I think all the heat you are creating is a little unfair.

You are always such a powerful imaginer and arguer but in this case the fact of unhappnines is not really the point . there is never going to be a happy resolution to this question

Newmania said...

daisy , Ed was saying that, it is I assume because of the religious input from the states set agaunst the extreme Libertarian feminist movement.

Its a perfect storm isnt it bothe isdies drawing on fundemental American beliefs whihc , in the abstract , i admire

Daisy said...

living in it for so long i would have to say it is more like a tornado starts to blow...the wind increases...tears apart families...sometimes communities...then we rebuild...the american way i guess

Little Black Sambo said...

May I just say as a lurker here, how much better a discussion this has been, while covering the same issues, than the discussion at Devil's Kitchen, where the two sides were mostly swearing at each other, and where it is thought clever to say of anybody who has a religious belief, that he has "an imaginary friend" (= end of argument). I think Newmania you must take the credit for this.

Newmania said...

Oo thanks ...I do have a great respect for organised religion although i can`t say my own faith is more than a very wet puzzlement

hatfield girl said...

These disputes take place in a narrow and falsifying context. Now any woman likely to have conceived should have immediate and self-determined access to ensuring that her status is what she wishes it to be - she cannot, and may not wish, to undo the actions that have placed her in danger of conception, but nowadays there is nothing other than attempts to control her that stand between her and choosing whether to conceive or not.

All of these terrible choices were foisted onto the woman alone, for there is no way a man can be held responsible for his part of the action; a society that fails to make available as readily and easily as aspirins on a supermarket shelf,the remedy to unwanted conception, is worse than any desperate woman coping with impossible circumstance.

All of this horror is gone if a fertile woman can at once end any chance of pregnancy resulting from acts that men can dismiss so readily.

Newmania said...

There is a morning after Pill HG It is readily available and I know as a fact it is often used :)

I `m not sure what else you want ?

Lilith said...

Thanks for your answer Newms. Of course I am not into suffocating new born children. I think most abortions happen because the idea of having a baby that you cannot look after on your own/will be taken away from you at birth is much, much worse than terminating a bud. A new born baby is the most precious gift. How can you expect a mother to give it away? Women face a terrible decision when they decide to terminate. I know many women who have had terminations, for all sorts of reasons, but the only people they tell are their best mate/mum and anyone they have to see about gynae issues. They don't tell men, for fear of being branded murderers or sluts.

Newmania said...

Is that still true Lillith ? You have to remeber that there uis never going to be a happy solution , its only the least bed thing to do.

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