Rank the Jumping Technique of These Senior Ladies

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by smarts1, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    So we got some really interesting responses on the skating skills of the senior ladies, so I'm wondering where you guys would place the same group of skaters (with a few others) in terms of jumping technique. So here's the list and rank away!

    1. Miki Ando
    2. Mao Asada
    3. Yuna Kim
    4. Kimmie Meissner
    5. Yukari Nakano
    6. Carolina Kostner
    7. Sarah Meier
    8. Emily Hughes
    9. Joannie Rochette
    10. Ashley Wagner
    11. Alissa Czisny
    12. Mirai Nagasu
    13. Akiko Suzuki
    14. Kiira Korpi
    15. Michelle Kwan
    16. Irina Slutskaya
  2. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    If we're talking pure technique, not consistency:
    1)Kostner (when she had the lutz, anyway...)
    6)Kwan (iffy lutz)
    7)Suzuki (iffy lutz)
    8)Asada (flutz, weak salchow)
    9)Nagasu (iffy lutz, salchow MIA)
    10)Wagner (flutz, sometimes toe-axels)
    11)Meier (lip, no loop)
    Could be better
    12)Meissner (lip, toe-axel)
    13)Hughes (Loop went MIA, heavy landings)
    14)Nakano (iffy flip AND lutz, wrap, loop went MIA)
    15)Korpi (her jump arch is very odd the toe and loop are her only jumps that don't look strange to me)
    16)Czisny (no explanation necessary)

    I feel good about my top five in that order, but within the other sub groups it's actually pretty interchangeable for me based on what aspects you prioritize.
  3. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    1. Irina Slutskaya
    2. Joannie Rochette
    3. Michelle Kwan
    4. Yuna Kim
    5. Carolina Kostner
    6. Miki Ando
    7. Yukari Nakano
    8. Ashley Wagner
    9. Akiko Suzuki
    10. Mao Asada
    11. Mirai Nagasu
    12. Kimmie Meissner
    13. Sarah Meier
    14. Alissa Czisny
    15. Kiira Korpi
    16. Emily Hughes
  4. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure how to approach it with skaters like Kwan or Slutskaya who had tremendously long careers during which their jumping skills varied a lot. Even aside from that, some of the skaters were fabulous at everything but, say, one jump. Rochette had a lot of years where she was quite frankly not good, though she certainly went out on a high note.

    I guess I'd start by throwing out the ladies who simply have no measurable success at one of the jumps.

    Denise Beilmann isn't on the list -- shouldn't she be?
  5. icellist

    icellist Member

    I'm only going to do top 10 or 11

    Top 5 (in alphabetical order) is no doubt
    Miki Ando, Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner, Joannie Rochette and Irina Slutskaya

    Miki, Joannie, and Irina have all of the triples sans 3A. Lots of power and good technique in the jump. While Yuna and Carolina are missing the loop and lutz respectively, the quality of their other jumps make up for that missing jump type. Most of their jumps you can use as textbook examples. Height, speed, distance, takeoff, landing...

    Almost at the top
    Michelle Kwan, Mirai Nagasu, Akiko Suzuki

    They mostly have the same technique on the lutz. They get a slight reputation for flutzing: when they don't flutz, the tech panel still calls it. All other jumps are there though. [Re Mirai's Salchow: it was a beauty in juniors, but Carroll left it out of her programs]. Mirai has the superior loop. Suzuki has that killer 2A-3T. Michelle has the consistency. They all have lovely edges and positions on their landings.

    End of top 10
    Yukari Nakano, Ashley Wagner

    Yukari's wrap didn't bother me. I am still amazed at how she gets the rotation in her jumps considering the angular momentum and radial separation her leg gets. I can see why people think her flip/lutz takeoffs are iffy if you're distracted by the leg though. Can't forget 3A! Ashley has a lot of power in her full arsenal of jumps. The flutz is pretty obvious though. She fixed her toe axel though.

    11. Mao Asada
    She has the axel, flip and loop. She had a few good 3A. She flutzes. Loops are pretty nice. Pops her salchow. Her toe is okay. But she has nice light landings. Her jumps are more impressive than no-kneebend-Meier, thud-landing-Hughes, pre-rotated-salchow&toe=axel-Meissner, effortless-fall-Czisny and toe-loop-only-Korpii.

    I actually feel pretty mean typing this because I can't jump but it is my opinion. Maybe I was too critical :/
  6. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    1: Carolina Kostner (except lutz, but her other jumps are textbook)
    2: Joannie Rochette
    3: Yuna Kim (exception of loop and salchow)
    4: Irina Slutskaya
    5: Miki Ando
    6: Michelle Kwan
    7: Suzuki
    8: Wagner (flutz)
    9: Meier
    10: Asada (good technique on axel, but nothing else)
    11: Nagasu
    12: Hughes (odd technique but managed to pull of some good jumps sometimes)
    13: Meissner (toe-axel, DOWNGRADES !!!!!!! )
    14: Nakano (huge wrap)
    15: Korpi (hunch-back)
    16: Czisny (TERRIBLE)
  7. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

    :eek: at overrating Rochette's jumps.
    I don't see anything special from her jumps(including 2A) except 3S&3Lo.
    Even her 3S&3Lo are not that excellent.
    Rochette's all jumps except 3Lz are only sound.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2012
  8. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

    Mao Asada ( tight air positioning, fast rotation, good flow, great height, smooth and steady landing, having showcased all the jumps including the 3A and several 3-3, the only thing left to say is a natural talented jumper)

    Miki Ando ( fast rotation, tight air positioning, good height and the jump display she has showed also indicates what a natural talented jumper she is)

    Yuna kim ( great jumps in terms of air positioning, height, flow but lack of loop, and inconsistent salcow)

    Suzuki Akiko (tight air positioning, great flow, good height...)

    Yukari Nakano ( wrap leg)

    Carolina Kostner ( just a few years ago i really hated her jumps and had to cringe EVERYTIME she had to jump, but this past season she greatly improved but I am not fan of watered down jump content)
  9. jatale

    jatale New Member

    To me, nobody really equals Yuna in the speed and height of her jumps. Both Michelle and Dick Button seemed to agree with that assessment in their remarks at the 2009 Worlds:

  10. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Trouble with putting Ando in this list is that she had a lip and then took it out completely so I think she belongs in teh group of "Good" with other skaters that have questionable edges.

    And dare I say that Kim with no 3 Loop also needs to be in the good rather than excellent list. :shuffle:
  11. fsfan22

    fsfan22 Member

    I agree with all of this, especially w/ Miki. Her jumps are good in the air, but a lot of her landings are questionable. Her loop entry has always been ... different?
  12. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Would you make different "throw them out" criteria for different eras?

    Biellmann didn't do all the triple jumps that we've expected since the 1990s, but she did more than those she was competing against. Well, she did one harder one than anyone else was doing at the time, and I believe if

    If you're going to include Biellmann, I think you need to include Zayak . . . and then Ito . . . as well. And other jumping trendsetters from other points in women's skating history. But that opens up whole other sets of questions that I don't think the poster of this thread was interested in.

    I didn't love Biellmann's technique. She had a very weird arm position in the air.
  13. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

    Don't know how anyone can be ranked at or near the top when they don't have all 5 triple jumps a female elite skater is supposed to have. Doesn't matter if their jumping technique on 3 or 4 of the triples is "textbook"; to me, if they can't do them all properly, it's not sound technique.
  14. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

    However if you restrict the discussion to on those on the list who have all the jumps with correct technique, then you end up with Joannie Rochette.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  15. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    All I can say for my own list is that I didn't base it on consistency so much as how the jumps looked when they did them. Miki did do a real 3f for at least two seasons and many of them had excellent height. Yuna did do several beautiful triple loop jumps here and there. I saw her practicing them at Worlds in 09, and though she didn't do it in her program, I saw her land FIVE gorgeous ones in a row like they were nothing.
  16. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    I would like an explanation as to what's wrong with Czisny's technique. Besides the fact that she falls all the time. When she does jumps cleanly, they look nice.
  17. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

    ITA. I do think that she tends to under rotate at times but when they are landed, I think her jumps are actually very pretty. I am a Mao Fan but Yu Na's jumps are amazing. The toe jumps have perfect arch, speed and power to them. To me her jumps almost dont suite her feminine demeanor they are so strong.

    Mao these days has beautiful jumps. Sato has done a great job at getting her to blend her technique into the rest of her skating. I dont think that her lutz will get fixed though especially since the axel is still her focus. She was quite the jumper before doing it right became so dang important LOL.

    Kostner... i gotta give it to her. Her jumps are just beautiful. She's harnessed her talent and really jumps well.

    Ando to me Is a natural jumper like Slutskaya. I could watch her jump all day
  18. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    ...and if you added a sixth triple, you'd end up with Tonya Harding and Midori Ito. Still the best jumpers ever, it's amazing what they accomplished so long ago.
  19. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    Well, she lips and even when she was doing the sal many years ago it was cheated and awkward. Aside from that, her rotation is somewhat slow, she has low height, and enters her jumps without much speed. Her air position is usually a bit tilted causing her to land a little forward and usually has difficulty completing the rotation.
  20. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Some skaters can naturally jump very high because of their body type and can also rotate quickly. So they are able to complete harder jumps more easily, at least some of the time. (They may be inconsistent at these jumps if they're relying on physical gifts and skimping on technique.)

    Both those skills can be learned and improved, but ultimately the skater's physical makeup is going to limit the maximum height or rotational speed she can achieve.

    Other skaters do not have the fast-twitch muscles or body proportions necessary to jump as high or rotate as quickly. They have less room for error. In order to do triple jumps at all, they need to have better technique than the skaters who are more athletically gifted in the relevant areas.

    So are we asking who had the biggest, most impressive jumps, or who had the best technique?
  21. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

    Over the last 20-25 years only 4-5 ladies have actually been able to do all 5 jumps technically correct.
  22. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    You mean without the axel? There are 6 jumps.
    If you just mean toe through lutz and a 2a, I'd say:
    Maria Butyrskaya, Tatiana Malinina, Irina Slutskaya (first lutz entry), Miki Ando (2007-2009ish), Carolina Kostner (when she did lutzes), Susanna Poykio, Alisa Drei, Joannie Rochette, Rachael Flatt(after late 2009), Emily Hughes (when she did the loop), Kiira Korpi (though she rarely lands them)

    add Ito and Harding to the list and that makes 13 and there are probably more.
  23. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

    I'd actually like examples of both cases.
  24. query5

    query5 New Member

    i would also add michelle kwan to that list,
    i would agree with most of the people other people have listed .
  25. query5

    query5 New Member

    as far as placing them in order it depends on various factors, age, development.
    mirai jumps at beginning werent as good now-they are okay.

    kostners some jumps better younger, some older,
    joanie kinda of improved with age,
    both michelle and irina depended upon how hurt they was.
    kiira sometimes good sometimes not,

    but michelle and irina couldn't have long careers with bad jump technique. both had decent jump technique
    alissa depends

    depends on skaters, hurt, age, sometimes better when younger , sometimes better when older.
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    How about Kristi Yamaguchi as an example of a skater with small jumps who got them done pretty consistently on the strength of technical control, and Oksana Baiul as an example of a skater who relied more on height and speed on the jumps but was less consistent with her technique.
  27. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

    I would add Yuna(when she did 3Lo : Junior, 07~08 season). ;)
  28. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    ^ You mean 05-06.
  29. invierno

    invierno Member

    No Eric means junior years AND 07~08 season. :)
  30. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    We're going on best technique. Not on consistency or impressive jumps. Generally though, it seems to me that most people think that impressive jumps go with excellent technique (which is true in most but not all cases).