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Nan please read what I have to say

Posted By: Observer on 2005-06-30
In Reply to: Wow, talk about creepy. sm - Nan

I've read your latest posts.  You fit the decription of a troll at times, but I don't really care about that.  DOesn't matter. What I do notice is that you incite other posters with calculated insults, condescension and twisted and sometimes cruel logic.  Then when the object of your insults becomes angry and lashes back you pretend to be an unfairly accused innocent and the object of someone else's crazy, uncalled-for rage.

This is compatible with borderline personality disorder. My mother had it, a brother-in-law battles it and I am all too familiar with it.

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    This looks interesting. A long read, so will read it when I get home from work. nm
    Obviously u didnt read, I said NONE of them are moral. Read the post before spouting off.

    I read on CNN (yes, I do read liberal stuff too..hehe)...sm
    ...that Karl Rove was actually very disappointed in the McCain campaign for airing negative type ads against Obama.

    So I would say that Rove is definitely not in the hip pocket of the McCain campaign.
    Good research sam - but a lot to read right now so gotta read it later
    I've been goofing off too much from work. I appreciate what you wrote and will read when I'm done with work here.
    sorry, should read I did not read post that way.
    All you have to do is read up on Marxism, read up on...
    black liberation theology, and look at what Obama is proposing. All of it a matter of public record, most of it from his own mouth. Your denial of it does not change the facts. If you support socialism, vote for him. Certainly your right. You are already wanting to squelch any kind of dissent...what's up with that? If you seriously consider calling someone a socialist a smear, you really need to read up on your candidate. I did not post a smear, I posted a fact. Redistribution of wealth is socialist and he already said he was going to do it...I heard him say it and it is now a campaign commercial. Sigh.
    Some on this board can only read what they want to read (nm)
    I did read it.
    Not posting the whole article puts the quote out of context. It's not really a way to do things on a chat forum, but then maybe you don't post in a lot of other forums.  Those I frequent always post the whole article or at least a link. It would give you a lot more credibility.  Take it for what it's worth.
    Read this...
    Pandora's Box
    September 22, 2005
    By Ken Sanders

    You have to hand it to the Bush administration. No matter how bad things might be in Iraq, and no matter how dim the prospects are for Iraq's future, Bush & Co. still manage to look the public straight in the eye, smirk, and insist that the decision to invade Iraq was a good one. Call them determined, even stubborn. Call them dishonest, perhaps delusional. Regardless, the fact is that by invading Iraq, the Bush administration opened a Pandora's Box with global consequences.

    Bush and his apologists have frequently promised that the invasion of Iraq will spread democracy and stability throughout the entire Middle East. That naive declaration could not be farther from the truth. Not only is Iraq itself in the clutches of a civil war, the U.S.-led invasion threatens to destabilize the whole of the Middle East, if not the world. It may have irrevocably done so already.

    By most definitions and standards, Iraq is already in the throes of civil war. Whether defined as an internal conflict resulting in at least 1,000 combat-related fatalities, five percent of which are sustained by government and rebel forces; or as organized violence designed to change the governance of a country; or as a systematic and coordinated sectarian-based conflict; the requirements of civil war have long since been satisfied.

    While our television screens are saturated by images of chaos and death in Iraq, the stories beneath the images are even more disturbing. Purely sectarian attacks, largely between Iraq's Sunni and Shiite populations, have been rising dramatically for months. According to Iraqi government statistics, such targeted attacks have doubled over the past twelve months. Police in Iraq are finding scores of bodies littering the streets, bodies of people who were blindfolded or handcuffed, shot or beheaded. The Baghdad morgue is constantly overwhelmed by bodies showing tell-tale signs of torture and gradual, drawn-out, agonizing death.

    In Baghdad, Sunni neighborhoods live in fear of Shiite death squads like the Iranian-backed Badr Brigade of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), Iraq's leading Shiite governing coalition. Such death squads operate openly, in full uniform, and with the deliberate ignorance, if not outright sanction, of the Iraqi government. On a single day in August, the bodies of 36 Sunni Arabs were found blindfolded, handcuffed, tortured and executed in a dry riverbed in the Shiite-dominated Wasit province.

    At the other end, Shiites face each day burdened by the terror and trauma of being the targets of constant suicide bombings. The army and police recruits killed by suicide bombs are predominantly Shia. In Ramadi, a Sunni stronghold, Shiites are fleeing their homes, driven out by murder and intimidation. On August 17, 43 Shiites were killed by bombings at a bus stop and then at the hospital where the casualties were to be treated.

    There are less-violent examples of the deepening rifts between Iraq's Sunnis and Shiites since the U.S.-led invasion. By some estimates, nearly half of the weddings performed in Baghdad before the invasion were of mixed Sunni/Shiite couples. Since the invasion and its resulting instability and strife, such mixed weddings are all but extinct. This new-found reluctance of Sunnis and Shiites to marry each other is just another indication of the increasing isolation and animosity between the two populations.

    The recently finalized Iraqi constitution does little to bridge Iraq's growing sectarian divides. The culmination of sectarian feuds passing for political debates, Iraq's constitution only ratifies the sectarian divisions of the nation. In the north are the Kurds who long ago abandoned their Iraqi identity, refusing to even fly the Iraqi flag. In the south is a burgeoning Shiite Islamic state, patterned after and influenced by Iran. Both groups have divvied up Iraq's oil reserves amongst themselves. Left in the nation's oil-free center are the Sunni Arabs, dismissed as obstructionist by the Kurds and Shiites. So unconcerned are the Kurds and Shiites with a unified Iraq that they both maintain their own large and heavily-armed militias.

    Of course, the constitution still has to be ratified. If it is ratified, it will likely be by a Shiite/Kurdish minority, effectively maintaining the status quo that motivates, in part, the Sunni-led insurgency. If, on the other hand, the constitution is defeated, there's little reason not to believe that the three major factions in Iraq won't resort to forcibly taking what they want. Either way, in the words of one Iraqi civilian, God help us.

    The discord in Iraq is not limited to fighting between Shiites and Sunnis. In Basra, for instance, rival Shiite militia groups constantly fight each other. The notorious Badr Brigade, backed by SCIRI, have repeatedly clashed with dissident cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi militia. The Badr Brigade frequently works in conjunction with Basra police and are suspected of recently kidnapping and killing two journalists. Suspecting that the Basra police have been infiltrated by both the Badr and Mehdi militias, the British military sent in two undercover operatives to make arrests. The British operatives were themselves arrested by the Basra police. When the British went to liberate their men, they found themselves exchanging fire with the Basra police, their heretofore allies, and smashing through the prison walls with armored vehicles.

    Iraqis aren't merely growing increasingly alienated from each other, as well as progressively opposed to coalition forces. Iraq's estrangement from the rest of the Middle East and the Arab world is widening as well. Seen more and more as a proxy of the Iranian government, the Shiite/Kurd dominated Iraq finds itself at odds with the Sunni-dominated Middle East. For instance, since the U.S.-led invasion, not a single Middle East nation has sent an ambassador to Baghdad. And, despite promises to do so, the Arab League (of which Iraq was a founder) has yet to open a Baghdad office.

    There are, clearly, many reasons other than sectarianism for Iraq's estrangement from the Middle East and Arab nations, security being the foremost. However, Iraqi diplomacy, or lack thereof, is also to blame. From chiding Qatar for sending aid to Katrina victims but not to Iraq, to arguing with Kuwait over border issues, to blaming Syria for the insurgency, Iraq's fledgling government seems to have taken diplomacy lessons from the Bush administration. In fact, with the exception of Iran, Iraq has butted heads recently with nearly every Middle East nation.

    Iraq's constitution hasn't won it any friends in the Arab world, either. For instance, Iraq drew strong condemnation from the Arab world when a draft of its constitution read that just its Arab people are part of the Arab nation. Only after the outcry from the Arab League and numerous Arab nations, did Iraq change its constitution's offending language. (The argument by Bush's apologists that the Iraqi constitution's alleged enshrinement of democratic principles threatens neighboring countries is unconvincing. Syria and Egypt both have constitutions that guarantee political and individual freedoms. In practice, however, such guarantees have proven meaningless. Why, then, should they feel threatened?)

    Iraq's varied relationships with Middle Eastern nations will be immeasurably significant should Iraq descend further into civil war. For example, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Jordan would most likely come to the support of Iraq's Sunnis. (There are already signs that the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq has impacted Saudi Arabia's Sunni population. According to a recent study, the invasion of Iraq has radicalized previously non-militant Saudis, sickened by the occupation of an Arab nation by non-Arabs.) Iran would only increase its already staunch support for Iraq's Shiites. Turkey would also likely be drawn in, hoping to prevent any Kurdish success in Iraq from spilling across its border. Moreover, Iraq's violent Sunni-Shiite discord could easily spark similar strife in Middle East countries like Bahrain, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

    In such a worst-case scenario, Iraq's instability would spread and infect an already unstable region. If the Gulf region were to further destabilize, so too would the global economy as oil prices would skyrocket, plunging the U.S. and so many others into recession.

    Put another way, Bush's illegal, ill-conceived, short-sighted, and naive venture in Iraq could reasonably result in total chaos in not just Iraq and the Middle East, but the world over.

    A Pandora's Box, if there ever was one.
    Sorry, but can you read?
    pizza. Don't you think they've thought of moving? It isn't always practical to simply uproot. In this case, there is an elderly family member and children. Again, from the throne passing judgement.

    This makes no sense: I'm talking about a certain segment of our society who refuse to learn, refuse to work, and who YOU wish to bring up to an equal place as the rest of society who works hard and earns what they have. Huh? You still missed the point...good grief.

    I read that. And then MT goes on

    to criticize you for suggesting that posters visit eXtremely Political and is aghast at the post that calls for shooting someone who doesn't agree...... she just FAILS to mention that it's a NEOCON who wants to shoot LIBERALS!!!

    This is what she wrote:

    Sorry, had to answer this one.  There have a Whine to Management option.  That is PERFECT for gt.  Talking about shooting other posters, atheism and porno.  Yeah, that's a great place alright.  And now they have THE gt as a member.  Does it get any better than that.  Although, my thoughts are they won't suffer her long.  Those people are pirrhanas.

    Well, if that ain't the pirrhana calling the shark hungry!

    Perhaps you need to read
    No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

    Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry. --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:301, Papers 2:545

    We have no right to prejudice another in his civil enjoyments because he is of another church. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:546

    I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another. --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

    Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle. --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813.

    I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others. --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803. ME 10:378

    Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine. --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:198

    and many more: http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
    You need to read that again.
    Yes, it is US law, according to the Constitution.

    The United States signed the UN Charter -- which is a treaty. Let me repeat:

    Article VI of the U.S. Constitution makes treaties into which the U.S. has entered the supreme Law of the Land.

    In other words, we made a treaty with a bunch of other countries to abide by certain rules, including the use of force. Since we entered into this treaty with the UN, that makes it the supreme Law of the Land -- US Law.

    Sure, you can say, So what? Nobody's going to take us to court. We can do anything we want. But if we as a country aren't going to respect our agreements with other countries and our own laws, why should anybody else? Nobody is above the law, right?

    By the way, I think we were fully justified in invading Afghanistan.

    I have read this...

    So what. At one point you say he was involved with AIM and had a lackey break someone's arm. Now you are providing us with an article that disavows any connection with AIM at all. Which is it? Could it be that some folks who were involved with AIM in the late 60s early 70s are no longer involved, or are dead or have had major disagreements along the way about what should be done. Banks, Russell Means and Peltier don't even speak to each other any more. That is sad, in my opinion. Trudell, on the other hand, is still around. (I had the pleasure of meeting him last Saturday in Hollywood Florida at the Native American Music Awards) and still fights the good fight although his wife and children were burned to death in an FBI arson. There is a video, called simply Trudell. It has aired on PBS stations. It is also available from Trudell's web site. It you get a chance, see it. There is so much information out there that no one seems to care much about as regards the American Indian from Columbus to today. The history is always written by the victor and the American Indian history is distorted.

    You can read whatever you want...
    into what people say. Some are not very tactful and some, like our president, just can't get a syntax together to save their souls. I still think the sentiment was not that these Americans do not want democracy. I still think they thought we **deserved** to be surprised because we have ignored  Middle East history, the British colonization, the politics, the culture, the nature of Islam when, in reality, bearing in mind our support for Israel and our dismissal of the Arab states, it should not have been a surprise. This has been brewing for quite some time. That is not the same thing. I really don't know what those 2 had in their hearts but I truly believe that one saying the US has treated the Arab states badly in the past does not make one a **terrorist** or a communist or a democracy hater. These people attempt to see all sides of things, in all colors, not just black and white. Those are the people who will ultimately garner peace if it is at all possible. It will not come at the barrel of a gun, no matter what has happened in the past.
    Yep, I know, I can read. NM

    Well, I don't read the

    leftist blogs or any other blogs for that matter, too much like talk radio. I also don't need to plagerize anything; I can think for myself, thank you very much.


    I have read this one over and over...s/m
    What has happened in this country over the years? Why the almost blind acceptance of things, almost anything that is done? Where are the idealistic youth? Their future is at stake, so many, many issues, yet, where are they? Why the banket of almost deafening silence?   It scares me.
    have you read...
    anything written by Michelle Obama? she is truly a racist. Your remarks about her scare me. Make sure you are truly informed. John McCain is a down-to-earth person who would do well in office, but the reality is no president can make the changes outlined above. It takes all the members of the house and senate to begin to make change, not just one man.
    Where can we read about this? TIA - nm

    can't read and can't

    recognize inappropriate behavior in temprament.  Oy.


    Read it before....
    ....Opinion section can state anything they want to, and so can you.

    So can I.

    Seems to me, though, are those three tiny words by Gov. Palin, that are given very little credence here:

    "Hold me accountable."

    I kinda have the feeling that she doesn't have much to hide here, having read other parts of this story before too.

    So bring it on.

    I have the feeling that Gov. Palin will come out on top.
    And you believe everything you read on the net?
    Have you read it? nm
    We both must have read something different....sm
    Quotes from the first article:

    Charity's Political Divide

    Republicans give a bigger share of their incomes to charity, says a prominent economist

    In Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism (Basic Books), Arthur C. Brooks finds that religious conservatives are far more charitable than secular liberals, and that those who support the idea that government should redistribute income are among the least likely to dig into their own wallets to help others.

    Mr. Brooks agreed that he needed to tackle politics. He writes that households headed by a conservative give roughly 30 percent more to charity each year than households headed by a liberal, despite the fact that the liberal families on average earn slightly more.

    Most of the difference in giving among conservatives and liberals gets back to religion. Religious liberals give nearly as much as religious conservatives, Mr. Brooks found. And secular conservatives are even less generous than secular liberals.

    Well if you read, why do we have to? nm
    Then you don't read enough.
    Should read 8 above - nm
    when I read the first one
    I was flying to Arizona to visit my daughter. In the book the setting is on an airplane (one of the main characters is the pilot). Suddenly half the people on the plane are gone and all that is left is a little pile of their clothing on the seat when they had been sitting before being raptured. I had to take a quick look around to make sure all the passengers were still on board! But do try to read at least some of it. I think there are now like 10 books in the series but within the first couple you will know when I am talking about. I believe they have a web site and I know the first 2 were made into movies.
    Not what I said. Read it again. am
    I said/meant collectively, the hardworking/undereducated/less intelligent/mentally or physically disabled/, any of the above, the poor and middle class.
    Did you even read what I said?
    A. Lincoln: " It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
    Is there anybody here that can't read?
    not if you read it all
    maybe it appears to be contradicting because you haven't opened your heart when you read...... that is a big book... if you just read a couple things here and there, it may appear to be contradicting itself... if you actually read and study what it's telling you... no contradictions....
    Read it again
    and see you weren't happy with the email your friend sent. Therefore, my other comment is for all those who feel the way she does; and, to my huge surprise, there seem to be many on here. I don't see how so many people actually do ... but it certainly seems to be the case!
    And I don't see how you can read it
    and assume it is the truth.
    okay - what I just read said -
    It said that Richardson did say that, but that clearly he just misspoke because earlier in a radio talk he gave he stated the plan correctly.
    I read it

    I've heard it all before.  Does anyone happen to recall that McCain has been in Congress now for what 26 years?  Obama has been there 2.  Did any of you become an accomplished MT in 2 years?  Me, I'll vote for the hope for change.  I'm really not too worried about what Obama will "change."  Remember he can't make any change all by himself.  Remember the illegal immigration bill that got buried?  Why?  Because so many people let their elected politicians know that they were outraged (including myself).  Real change will come when "we the people" put enough pressure on these politicians to MAKE them vote our way, Democrat AND Republicans.  These congress people don't want to lose their cushy jobs so maybe instead of all the bashing, we ALL need to start thinking about how we can put pressure on them.  Regardless of whether McCain or Obama is in the White House, there is PLENTY that needs changing and plenty of people in Congress, Democrats and Republicans that need to GO!!!

    If you want to talk "scary," it is pretty frightening when you hear the president declare, "I am the decider."  Too close to dictator for my liking.  And after Katrina, remember Bush having the audacity to stand up in front of millions and declare, "You're doing a heck of a job, Brownie!"  And who was it that voted with the president over 90% of the time?

    Just my opinion.

    Read this again.............sm

    This is the qualification process for the

    President and Vice President. 

    Obama has never run for either of these offices in the past.  Therefore, he did not have to be certified. 

    Read this....

    Yes he has...not to mention the fact that his eligibility had to be certified in 1996, 1998 and 2002 by the Illinois Secretary of State and in 2004 by the US Secretary of State.  Try reading the Election Code.  It's been posted there for your benefit. 

    I read that too
    Palin and her husband donated almost double of what BO and his wife donated and they make a fraction of what they make.

    Believe that BO is "happy" to pay more in taxes....think again!
    If you think that's bad, you should read on down
    Unless you see a moniker, in which case, I will not claim those for fear someone else would be upset about not getting their just credit.
    Read this......
    "America is electing a new president, but for the Germans, for Europeans, it is electing the next world leader," said Alexander Rahr, director of the German Council on Foreign Relations."

    Yes, I read that........ sm
    I'm not sure what your point in bringing that into this is, other than the fact that is land drilling and that is what I was speaking to. Drilling in Alaska, even as rich in resources as it is, is way, WAY more expensive that drilling in Texas. Weather is prohibitive and getting the product to market is a expensive.

    I'm not saying that I am against off shore drilling or that I am against drilling in Alaska (the caribou will get used to it). I'm just saying that there are gas and oil deposits in this country that are untapped and that there is also oil sitting in warehouses in Houston refineries that could be used right here instead of sending it off to China. The oil and gas industry is probably one of the slickest industries in this country in terms of how they have lied to the American public about the availability of gas and oil and forced America into buying oil from the Arabs until they could get the prices up where they wanted them.

    Don't believe everything you read in the funnies.
    I read it again and...
    "most of the world" comes between, "For a long time"and "US government." But thanks for pointing out that I am not stupid.
    Has anyone read this anywhere..... sm
    other than in opinion pieces like this one? 


    What is your position on this? 
    You really believe what you read on
    You poor thing.
    Perhaps BO should read the following then.


    Avoid popularity if you would have peace.



    Republicans are for both the man and the dollar, but in case of conflict the man before the dollar.



    To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men.

    I read it, I just don't think
    it's enough. Besides which, who makes the stipulations? I wouldn't trust that process any further than I could throw it.

    The basis of free enterprise is that your company makes it if it is strong enough & successful enough to do so. Keeping bad companies afloat via government bailout is completely at odds with this. Let them go under, pay for their own losses, & have a superior company come in & do it right; using American workers under Japanese management principles to create hybrid or electric cars, & Detroit can go pound sand.
    I read on the web where.......... sm
    cops are trying to round up the people who were in the store at the time. Wonder where that will lead?
    Why don't you read up on.... (sm)
    Michelle's thesis on racial divide. That, along with her choice of church for 20 years under the racist Rev. Wright, her "For the first time in my adult life I am really proud of my country" remark, her "give up a piece of pie" remark (actually a rather marxist comment) in Charlottesville, and the purported missing tape of "whitey" throughout.....sure smacks of racism to me.

    That's all you'll get out of me tonight, no matter how hard you try to bully more out of me.