75 responses to “Pro-China protest in Toronto

  1. The situation addressed by Kidup La is not the truth.

    How do you know that no other nationalities in the protest? I am Uigur minority, but so far I am quite sure that I am Chinese. We needn’t to dress ourselves in ethnic clothes to identify our status, since we are Chinese. 56 nationalities stand for one China. If you know nothing about us, just shut off!!!!!

    How do you know that we are all new comers from China Mainland? Without any stats, just shut off!!!

    • if you do not know who you are ,do not tell me about the world-Konfucius and not mao the worst murderer of human history

  2. Hi there “Truth”,
    Have you even read Kidup La’s account? He clearly says “Everybody was Chinese and there were no other nationalities there”… if you are “quite sure” that you’re Chinese then what is the problem?

    As you may have noticed, the line: “looked like they newly immigrated from main land China” is speculative. It really is very easy to distinguish someone who immigrated from China as opposed to those who were born and raised here in Canada, you know.

    Last week we were joined by a group of Uighur protesters in Toronto and they certainly didn’t seem too happy with the Chinese government’s heavy-handed tactics implemented in East Turkestan(Xinjiang). But if you’re so inclined as to call yourself Chinese, by all means.

  3. Thk you for this account – it seems much more accurate than what I have in the press. Please read my own account – the event below is very troubling…It happened to me on Saturday as I stumbled onto the Pro-China protest on Dundas Sq.

    I was shocked by the furious reaction of the Chinese I confronted – especially as they were on the West Side of Yonge and they had “booked” Dundas Sq. for their protest – and therefore should not have been allowed to protest on the West sidewalk (Sears) of Yonge.

    And according to the Toronto Star – most of the Pro-China demonstrators were Visa Students – so not even Citizens or Landed immigrants…
    I was cycling home – after going to buy some Maple Syrup at the St. Lawrence Market – the guy outside on Sat.

    I am going up Yonge Street and planning to stop at Eaton’s Centre looking for an alarm clock.

    I stumble unto the protest, just South of Dundas. A pro-China rally as it turns out later…

    On my right side, behind a cordon of police, I catch a glimpse of a sea of red flags and a crowd of Chinese people.

    I look left and I see a couple of Tibetan flags – a few people huddled together around the flags and a few more red flags behind them.

    I look right again – Dundas Square is half full of people – with many red flags floating in the wind – a yellow star on them…

    I park my bike on Dundas away from the crowds. I walk down the West side (Sears side) of Yonge – planning to go express my support to the few Tibetan people courageously confronting this sea of Chinese demonstrators.

    A Chinese demonstrator hands me a leaflet. I just say Free Tibet and he starts asking me if I know about the history of Tibet.

    I ask him : how do you say Genocide in Chinese.

    He asks me again : do you know about the history of Tibet.

    I simply say : you are killing the Tibetan Culture.

    He keeps asking: do you knod about the history of Tibet before 1959.

    By this time two or three other men are behind him.

    I repeat : you are killing the Tibetan Culture. Yes or No. Answer me.

    By then a few more people are screaming at me. I end up being surrounded, in the middle of a circle, on the sidewalk, almost behind where the Tibetan people are.

    I scream back at the man : you are lying.

    By then he gets really angry. And screams at me in Chinese.

    The people around me are all screaming, in Chinese I assume. I am alone. There is a circle of people around me, about a metre away. They are all screaming at me. Some words I don’t understand.

    I lift my hands up in a sign like : Congratulations. Keep going.

    I then remember I have a tiny Tibetan flag pinned on my shirt.

    I zip down my leather jacket, zip down my polar fleece and untie my scarf.

    I uncover my shirt and look at the man I started speaking to. I point to the Tibet flag facing him. Then I turn around, pointing to the flag, showing it around to the other people. The circle is by now screaming louder.

    This is when I feel behind me someone pulling me away from this angry crowd, towards the Eaton’s Centre building, away from the protest.

    I realize there are two police officers in yellow jacket and one taller, uniformed officer.

    I turn around to stop while they are still pushing me towards the building.

    I say: What is going on, Sir.

    One says: Do you want to get arrested.

    I reply: What did I do wrong, SIR

    By then I am close to the door of a store.

    The uniformed officer pushes me inside and pushes the door shut as I try to go out…?!

    Arrested for simply walking on a sidewalk and confronting the supporters of a cultural genocide.

    This is Toronto, Canada. Dundas and Yonge. March 29, 2008. Or am I dreaming. Or rather in a nightmare.

    My legs still shaking I proceed to look for an alarm clock in the mall. But go back out 30 minutes later.

    The Tibetan people are gone. On the sidewalk, the man I started arguing with is still there. He sees me as I stare him in the eye.

    He is so convinced he is right I feel very distressed… This is a Canadian?!…

    And the mayor of Toronto is going over to visit this country…

    Something’s not right.

    Next time, I should ask the Chinese supporters: why are no foreign journalists allowed in Tibet if you guys are so righteous…

  4. I was there too. I was going to the store and saw that sea of red flags, and saw a sign saying ‘Not to Riots’, and I knew then it was a pro-China protest. I continued walking, and someone handed me a flyer, saying the Tibetans are violent, etc. That’s when I started screaming FREE TIBET, FREE TIBET, and immediately, I felt the crowd moving menacingly toward me, some saying, One China, another one more direct, screaming SHUT UP!! The 40 individuals or so who had spotted me were closing up on me, and I felt quite threatened, and thiking Thank God I am in Canada, if I were in China, I would already be brutally beaten up and taken to jail. I continued walking and screaming FREE TIBET!! , crossed the street and went about my business. Upon my return, a China advocate was on the sidewalk, talking to a woman reporter, who had a microphone and a camera, and as I walked by, I started screaming FREE TIBET, BOYCOTT THE OLYMPICS, but this time, the China gouvernment guy could not tell me to shut up or threatent me in front of a reporter, so I really took advantage of that and stopped by them screaming FREE TIBET,

  5. I guess you guys have the freedom of speach, so you can shout free tibet as loud as you want, and the chinese supporters can shout whatever they want too.

    The issue here is I serrously doubt you know much about tibetan history. you simply say free tibet, yet you know very little about tibet and its culture at all.
    you can say the chinese students are brainwashed, but in my view, so too are you.

    I respect tibetan culture, I respect han chinese culture.. and i respect all the other asian cultures.

    but here are some facts.
    1. tibet was part of china for more than 400 years
    2.tibet was never a democratic nation
    3. feudal tibetans lived in serfdom
    4. the oppression in tibet before PRC rule is perhaps crueler than today – read about it
    5. a independant tibet brings tibetans no benefits- they’re landlocked, only access is thro china..
    6. china is trying to develop the tibetan economy thro tourism..perhaps that is why the natives are pissed off
    7. during the riots in tibet, we see NO evidence of chinese police cruelity, we SEE nepalnese police and inidan police only…
    8. innocent han chinese civilians have been victims to the riots, their shops have been burnt…etc etc

    many chinese have died in tibet for no reason….
    not all tibetans want violence
    not even the dalai lama wants fully independence
    you guys know nothing about tibet
    but i appreciate your concern

  6. Re: ko092,

    I’m impressed at your facts. And your cold, hard grip on reality and rationality. I must also laud your sympathy for the Chinese people who were needlessly hurt from the unrest in Tibet.

    Now for all that you’ve encapsulated on your numbered list, let me ask you this: why are so many Tibetans in Tibet unhappy NOW?

    Do you think there might be a slight chance that the way the Chinese govt. has been treating the Tibetans falls under “oppression”?

    Or the fact that no Tibetans (other than Chinese appointed officials) have actually come forward and denounced their countryfolks for creating all this unrest? Forget pro China rallies in Tibet. Just get me some quotes and comments from regular Tibetans.

    Or is it that you don’t really care for the plight of Tibetans? That you view them as something…irritating, almost pestlike? That the sooner this thing is swept under the rug, the better at ease you’ll be.

    Because, of course, in light of everything that has happened in Tibet (over the last fifty years) you would much rather be more offended by people slandering your oh-so-holy view of the Chinese govt. The actual reality of people who are tortured and killed is just a side-issue.

    I am a Tibetan and although my grasp of the situation there might be lacking compared to yours, I know that their suffering resonates with me, and for as long as I live in a free and democratic country like Canada, you bet your ass I’m gonna be down on the streets and protesting. Against govt. oppression, against cultural genocide and against human suffering. Not just for Tibetans – but for the millions of Chinese, Uighers, Sudanese, Burmese and many many others.

    Because the squeaky wheel does get the attention. And because a life lost unjustly is a mother without her child, a boy without his brother, and a unique culture that is slowly being wiped out — that doesn’t need to be the case.

    I appreciate your concern too, and encourage you to look deeper into yourself and question your knack for objectivity.

    Thank you.

  7. ko092,

    I am sure you are a rational thinker, but your history needs a bit more revamping up to do in terms of respecting its complexities.

    While your version of history is way more liberal than the Chinese government’s who claims that Tibet has “always” been a part of China… you have to acknowledge that Tibet was a de-facto independent state during the first half of the 20th century before the incursion and subsequent invasion and annexation of Tibet by the PLA into the PRC.

    Also, the concept of “China” was not fully conceived before the CCP formulated its “One China policy”. It is clear that China annexed Tibet in 1950 only because Tibet was incapable of defending itself, whereas say Mongolia(who had Russia’s backing) is disowned in the “one China policy” even though it was part of the Qing Empire. You say that Tibet was a part of China for more than 400 years. Well, I’ve already partially disproved that claim, why not go further?

    The Ming Dynasty(1368–1644) had no control over Tibet. Tibetans were in charge of their own affairs. I’m quite sure you agree since this is outside of the 400 year range you specified. Enter: the Qing Dynasty(1644–1911). I assume you take it that this is when Tibet “became a part of China”. But you see, the Qing Dynasty were essentially Manchus and the majority Han always regarded them as “outsiders” who ruled their country. Furthermore, the Qing government didn’t really have any real power in the management of Tibet(which was managed by the then current Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government, and had been for a couple of centuries). All the Qing had were “Ambans” who resided in Lhasa and were basically just liaisons to the Qing government.

    Even if Tibet did happen to be a part of China for 400 years as you claim and also since the current state of the situation is what it is, we should remind ourselves that international law recognizes peoples’ right to self determination… meaning the people concerned can either choose to hold a referendum voting for either independence, autonomy, or any other political status. So it is my thinking that the recent protests which call for – independence, the return of the Dalai Lama(and essentially the former Tibet Government), the raising of the old Tibetan national flag – by the Tibetans in Tibet.. is indicative of the need to urgently convene a referendum.

  8. yes manchus are not han , but technically speaking they are chinese. most manchus living in china consider themselves to be a part of china.
    The Qing government did have direct control over Tibet, in fact over Nepal and Bhutan as well – but let’s not argue over this.

    You talked about mongolia disowning the one china policy…yes outer mongolia wasn’t a part of chinese control during the 50s onwards, unlike tibet, but mongolia during the cold war was a proxy for the soviet union. – so i really dunt know what you think is better… communist china or the soviet union…haha

    mongolia is “free” because the soviet union collapsed, and the russian economy fell to one tenth of this former capacity…sure all the civilians under soviet union rule are “free”… but also completely ruined economically… wonder why putin has so much infleunce in russia? cos russian admire and respect his stance to the west…there’s still a sense of nostagia…etc..etc

    I have been to china a few times, and to be honest, i don’t see any human rights abuses at all. in fact i hardly see any police or security guards…sure china is not a democratic nation but i find it extremely HARD to believe any signs of “cultural genocide”. there;s no sign of anything to the magnitude of Pol pot or the nanking massacre or whatever…
    if ur a normal citizen, living a normal life.. going to work.. meeting friends .. going for karaoke..whatever… the government wont really bother you at all
    of course if you want to topple the chinese government or challenge their rule.. then trouble may befall you..
    so if ur really a peaceful tibetan minding ur own business i doubt..seriously doubt…..anything harmful could occur to you in china

    the issue here is a few minor tibetans are causing the trouble.. and in return all tibetans are suffering to a certain extent…

    but if you still really want full independence from china…
    tibet will only become “free” if the chinese government collapses. sure if the chinese government collapses.. all the races of china will be “free”.. free but completely ruined and starving.
    this sort of freedom gives no benefit to anyone and causes only regional instability. i mean look at yugoslavia

    china is developing, sure the government is FAR from perfect. but hey, so was america (how did the white americans treat the “blacks” in the 70s??) so was south africa, so was australia to the aboriginals…

    i think if you give china another 20 to 30 years, the chinese government will probably change its position and attitude.
    there’s no point trying to topple the chinese government, it brings no good to the stability of the region.

    the best way is to work with the chinese govt.. and neg.
    but in order to do that you need to give them “face”.. yeah? or else how can you negotiate?

  9. hey all.

    I am a Canadian who was born in China and left at the age of 3. I’m a mix of several minorities (one of the official 56), including the “manchus.”

    Just to give you guys a heads-up, the pro-China rally you see shouldn’t surprise you. Chinese students nowadays are far-more patriotic than back 20 years ago. Even Chinese immigres, such as myself who are 1st generation twinkies, will support China far more than we will ever a Free-Tibet campaign.

    I’m not sure how much you can acheive with your protests, but if you have the time and energy why not try?

    History, honestly, means jack in this world. I’m sure my own country Canada has looser territorial claims than it does compared to China over a lot of its territory. I once flirted with the idea of an independent Quebec (where i use to live), and thought it would be fun to jump on the bangwagon. Needless to say, I stopped once I got a lot of hate and flak from English canadians. I personally don’t buy historial claims, because if that is so then China will still have Mongolia and much of the Russian far east. That also works the other way around.

    Yes, its true the Chinese government’s history of human rights have been bad. There are tons of stories of local governments abusing their powers and oppressing villagers when they have the chance, to my chargrin. However, unfortunately, it seems like every developing nation faces this. India does, Sri Lanka, Russia, etc, you name it.

    Even western europe (French riots), and the US (I can speak for both since I have lived and studied there), faces a mounting problem and accusations of mistreating minorities. After all incarceration rates for minorities (esp of African and black origin) are FAR higher than that of whites, and asians.

    Its definately not a unique problem. I admire your strong views, but hope that you are not hypocritical like many of the people I’ve met who advocate rights for minorities then talk down right smack on them behind their backs.

    As for the Tibet issue. Well, you can see similar issues in Israel and other countries. It is, honestly, almost impossible for Tibet to hold a referendum and become independent. You guys probably know that right?

    Why? Well, remember, everyone has different points of view, and when one gets attacked, the view gets stronger.

    If China allowed concessions, i would imagine much of the Chinese public would revolt. In fact, i would be sure. Many already feel the government has become too soft. if Hu met with the Dalai Lama, it would go against a 40 year old policy that he helped reinforce. GOOD LUCK with that. It is actually likelier that Canada goes to war with China than that ever happening.

    Change in China must come within China, and if you really stage anti-China protests, you are only irritating and strengthening the resolve of people in China and even overseas Chinese with strong ties to the mainland. This isn’t something unique to Chinese culture, its the same in many east-asian countries where saving face is paramount and many people take comments directed at your nationality personally.

    In other words, when Chinese people critize the government among themselves, its not personal. But when other foreigners do, even if they are right, many will take it as a personal insult to injury.

    Before I leave, please don’t accuse me of being brainwashed. For christ’s sake, it seems that everytime i voice a view to the contrary the only explanation my opponents can come up with is that I’m a commie who is brainwashed by China even thought I grew up overseas…

    So what do I think is the right path? Accelerated economic growth helping to facilitate geo-political changes in China. Ensuring no collaspe of the aging demographic. Fixing pollution and corruption, and start the transition of complete privitazation of enterprises and the democratization of the government.

    But before that happens, honestly, unless there is massive war, you will acheive very little. In fact, you probably will make it worse.

    I’m pretty sure thats what the Dalai Lama foresaw when he asked his followers to think realitistically.

    BTW. Jet Li has met with the Dalai lama and is a practioner. Isn’t that cool?

  10. Hello everyone. I was the Lone Tibetan Supporter mentioned at the start of the demonstration. I carried a sign that read, China’s Red = Blood Shed. I hope you don’t mind but I just wanted to share a bit from the demonstration from my perspective.

    I wanted to start by saying, it was very scary being in that situation, and I really felt that fine line between bravery and stupidity, to which I didn’t know where I belonged yet. I first went to the square and stood there, with my lone Tibetan flag waving in a sea of RED. A police officer asked me to leave. I told him I wasn’t going to go. He told me he was doing it for my protection, to which I also responded that I was grateful, but I wasn’t leaving. I thought… it was public property, turned out it wasn’t so I had to leave the area, but set up camp across the street in front of the Eaton Centre.

    All eyes were staring at me, with anger and hatred. I overheard someone say An army against one. And that was exactly how I felt. Almost immediately I had been bombarded by a bunch of Chinese people telling me that I don’t know the history of China. And I am believing the lies. They started telling me horrible things about H.H. but through it all I didn’t say a thing. I knew camera’s would be on me, and I wanted to stand strong for my Tibetan brothers and sisters.

    I had one person stand beside me who said he was Tibetan. Like I don’t know a Tibetan!!! I didn’t say anything. Then he said… “let me help you with your sign. I said I was okay. He said.. “but I am Tibetan… let me hold it for you its very heavy”. I refused. He went away. But came back when my head was turned and tried to rip my sign out of my hands. He was very demanding that he should help me carry that sign. I was a little scared, but I kept standing there, holding my sign as if my life depended on it.

    Another person came over and tried to grab my flag. All the while this woman ran up to me and started saying horrible things about H.H. it was making me so angry but I just stared straight ahead.

    Another man came up to me and asked me if I ever went to Tibet. So I asked him if he ever went to Tibet. Then he asked me if knew the real history, so I returned the question back to him. Then he asked me where I got the pictures from. I told him the internet. He asked me what the URL or website was called, I refused to give it to him.

    Another person came over, and older gentleman this time. looking me over and over calling me… Stupid Canadian Girl. What do you know about China.
    Over and over again.

    Another male in his 50’s kept saying, F*** You! F*** You! He looked mad enough to spit at me. I had finally had enough so I asked him. “Why are you yelling at me and saying vulgarities? I have done nothing to you, yet you are screaming at me? Is this how you treat people who are being peaceful? Is this how your government treats people that are being peaceful?
    And with that he had this look on his face like he wasn’t expecting me to say that to him and he quickly left.

    When I first stood there, I saw a group of Tibetans, who I knew weren’t going to demonstrate. And I understood exactly why, it was too risky. Even here in Canada, at that moment, they felt they didn’t have a voice for fear of retaliation. But they were the sweetest people I have to say. They tied my sign because I was getting paper cuts. And one girl actually gave me her gloves because my hands were so cold. They gave me water, and offered me mints. They would have given me anything I asked… I’m sure.

    I was a stranger to them, and they gave to me so freely, but I have seen this kindness from Tibetans so many times. It made me very sad I almost cried to see such beautiful giving people in front of such hatred.

    Halfway through the rally, that.. by the way… WAS an Anti-Free Tibet Demonstration, no matter what they wanted to call it…. A few Tibetans and Supporters came to my side. I was relieved… to say the least. And there we all stood… no more than 15 of us. Defiant and strong against the hundreds of angry people. Our flags waving in their faces.

    In the end, we were told to go home by the police. “you made your point” the one officer said. And I felt let down. I didn’t want to go until THEY were gone, but I didn’t want to cause any problems. They cheered as we left and I was really angry and felt defeated. By this point we had gathered quite a bit of supporters around us, and one man angrily said… “They people shouldn’t have to leave… it should be those guys”… Pointing to the Chinese across the street.

    We may have been small in numbers, but I know, to the many that walked or drove past us, we had way more supporters on our side. In fact, I had many that came up to me and told me so.

    I have been to many Tibet Demonstrations, but this was the one that moved me the most and fueled my passion for the cause. My family and I are behind you all 100%.

    FREE TIBET!!!!!!

  11. Thank you for your account and brave solidarity, Cathy. I was at the rally too, and I quietly admired the steely resolve and the courage of yours to face that sea of red flags. I don’t think it’s a matter who won or who lost that day, but rather, of the poignancy of truth.

    The Chinese students, sadly, only had banners and placards that called for “One China” or “Peace”. They circulated pamphlets that apparently proved the western bias in all of the reportings from the unrest in Tibet.

    You had pictures of Tibetans actually killed by Chinese paratroopers right there. No sloganeering. No persuasive rhetroics.

    Just plain proof of what happens when you try to raise your voice in Tibet or China.

    And to still see so many people intent on labeling it as western propaganda, is something that is seriously disconcerting and baffling.

    Keep on fighting for justice. We’ll be with you every step of the way.

  12. Jeez, DUHHHHH, don’t act like you are so surprised.

    Time and time again I am still dumbfounded by how naive both sides are. Both the pro-China rally and people.

    Call me a cynist when it comes to protests, but I laugh equally.

    The pro-China rally was stupid because they let emotions get a hold of them, and especially the people who recently immigrated aren’t adept to arguing in English, so they could just be making fools of themselves.
    If you are surprised by the disdainful behaviour, you shouldn’t be. Protest any country as a foreigner and you will find a lot of cusses and hate thrown at you.

    okay moderators, if you wanna censor this following part, go ahead

    And jeez, forgive me if I can’t stand the stupidity of the avg person, but when you have inter-ethnic violence you ain’t gonna convince one group to forgive the other. Pure and simple. If you’ve done so much research on Tibet do some research on other East Asian cultures. See why Japan can’t publically apolgize for WWII deeds, see why are drawing those comments from a people whose country you think are helping through harsh protests. Gosh, heed my words. Even quite a number of Chinese dissidents, including the guys and girls who formally marched on Tiananmen square (including family members of some close friends), will take you personally and be extremely vigliant against what you say. Even if they share the same core grievances (not everyone of course, but many, if not most)! I ain’t lying either! You think its contradictry and I’m spilling BS, but if you really search for it, you’ll see why it makes sense!

  13. To Chuck, a poor man has been brainwashed by CNN, CBC’s fake news, and Dalai Lama’s Lieing speech.
    First of all, before all you western friend judge the tibet of china, learn the history of tibet first. Tibet was one of the province in China, it’s more like self-ruled territory like Yukon which is ruled by original people. Before 1949, tibet was under ruled by tibetan buddhism, which is a difference buddhism from the original india-china buddhism. They are more mysterical and critically, they even use fresh human skin and human skull for their worship. The Dalai’s monks and landlords are the only group could be able get educated in old tibet, and they are ruling over more than 95% people as SLAVE, yes it was bloody Slavery. Since a baby was born, he/she has to be registered as Dalai or landlord’s slave. After 1949, PLA came to tibet and brouhgt democracy freedom to the tibet, Dalai and those rich people lost their divine power and flee to india and other countries,and they formed current exile tibetan gov. Too bad, communist kicked dalai and his fella out of tibet and it benefit all people live-in tibet.
    Right now if you come to visit Lahsa, you wil see a beautiful city and friendly people. everyone can get educated and everyone is equal. thats impossible for under dalai’s cruel feudal slavery ruling.
    Now poor dalai want “his” tibet back? nah, tibet is not belong to himself and those “noble” tibetan outside of country, tibet is belong everyone live in tibet now, it’s a freeland!
    Welcome to Tibet~welcome to Lahsa

  14. James: that is exactly what I feared and that is what the Chinese govt. is kindling to the full extent — ethnic tensions. It distracts the people from the real problems in China.

    The Tibetan independence movement wasn’t created because Tibetans hated Chinese for some reason. The sheer brutality of the govt. of China, the repression of our rights and the continual atrocities that it commits not only on Tibetans, but Chinese people, is what we’re against.

    You seem to have a fairly balanced head — do you not see how dangerous it is to for a large segment of people who have no free access to the media to be continually told that the Tibetans are barbaric and violent?

    That’s what we’re against. Please understand this. Just because history has shown us again and again that human beings make grave mistakes does not mean we can’t learn from them.

    Nationalism is a sensitive issue, but the basic decency of a human being’s life and culture must never be swept under the hot blood of jingoism.

    Understand that, and then tell me why our efforts to highlight the issues of Tibet is wrong or a waste of time.

  15. Benjerin: I’m surprised you left out the part about Tibetans drinking live, newborn baby’s blood on the eight hour of the new moon’s rising.

    Also — we lived in caves for the most parts and have only now been introduced to basic arithmetic and astrology.

    Gyrad, can you think of any other barbaric norms that the Tibetans stubbornly practice even after China gloriously and benevolently freed our ignorant selves by purging thousands of our country folks?

    I’m sure there are more but I’m so distracted by my lust for warm, virgin blood that I can’t even type properly.

    Thanks, dude.

  16. dunt u think its poor taste to ruin the beijing olympics? the olympics does not represent the chinese government -it represents the pride of the chinese people.. by trying to sabotage it, ur really trying to make war with the chinese people– who really have nothing to do with this issue in tibet.
    anyway the olympics is not supposed to be poltical.. why protest now?…

  17. First of all, let me apologize if I sounded emotional. I have to, sometimes I get impassioned as well.

    Okay. To the point of the media telling people that Tibetans are barbaric and violent.

    I have visited China a few times, for months at a time, and I can honestly say that the vast majority of the Han Chinese have no opinion on what a Tibetan is like. They are ignorant of other minorities, no joke. After all, there are very very few Tibetans living on the east coast, and unless they wear traditional garb, no one can really tell.

    Now, I’m sure you can attest to this. There has been NO reports of backlash against Tibetans in China from Chinese civilians. In Sichuan province, and other places. Other riot reports, I wish I can comment on them, but all I get are unconfirmed reports from both sides that are poles apart.

    I would be lying if I say there are no ethnic prejudices between the Han and the Tibetans. And that works both ways. I’d say, most do so on both sides out of ignorance and the rest out of disdain or arrogance. Fixable? I don’t know. No even Canada and the USA are immune. Just look at the 92 LA riots and the large neo-nazi strong hold in Saskatchewan.

    But no, you are, for the most part, wrong in saying the government is deliberately fanning public hatred and ethnic violence. Even the propaganda machine is saying: only a few splittist, blaming it on the Dalai Clique, unrest caused by a few bad people.

    Interviews with locals have confirmed it. While some are bitter against Tibet as a whole, most don’t attribute it to ethnic violence but a few “bad apples.”

    The party-line has always been ethnic harmony, at least that is what is told to the public. The government didn’t single Tibetans out and tell the public this and that like what the Nazis did with the Jews.

    The pro-China rally was advocating “one family.” How is that fanning ethnic hatred? They can accuse you for fanning hatred against the Chinese, for the same reasons, but I don’t think you are, right?

    I doubt you really think that the Chinese are planning a masse campaign to villify, caricature, and etc against a minority that it says is part of one family.

    You have serious disagreements with the pro-China rallies and China, but just because you guys verbally sparred doesn’t mean ethnic hatred. I see the same thing in any politcal rallies. Just a few years in NYC, i saw some democrats and republicans almost fighting because the TV crew was interviewing a republican on his views in Iraq.



    Okay, now I will answer the last question.

    I believe your first comment about nationalism and jingosim is correct. I really wish that were the case. I remember living in the US, and one day in high school i uttered something about the war in afghanistan, when suddenly both liberal and conservative classmates threatened to attack me at home for saying ‘unpatrotic’ things. Ha, that is the US. Everyone has free access to media, but look what happened? I’m sorry if I don’t believe in ideology anymore. Years of seeing how easily even a democracy can be turned into a jinoist bunch has left me thinking more pragmatically.

    I don’t believe your efforts are wrong, but I do believe they are in at a wrong time. I actually don’t think China needs the Olympics, and it would be more of a pain than anything else. However, by taking the hatred out on the torch, a lot of protesters are politicizing everything for their own gain. Can they honestly say they’ve bought nothing made in China? And that, in my humble opinion, is wrong. And I assure you that these these events have even antagonized me, even as someone who reads Yahoo, google news, and not CCTV.

    Also, even though this does not speak for you personally, I believe the protests in London and Paris were effective only at inflaming more public outrage in China and even among us overseas who are likely more sympathetic to your cause. Don’t tell me that throw eggs, hitting people, and spitting on people while calling them facists because they have diff opinions isn’t considered violent, or “hate.”

    Is it a waste of time? In all honesty, it depends how you look at it. If you are an activist then no, because this is a great time to take advantage of the international media and voice your grievances.

    But then, if you look at it from the other way. What is likely going to change? Wouldn’t the government just be more callous and reinforce its grip even more? The timing is way off internally. People in the west might voice support, but they aren’t going to be willing to go all the way. People in China, government prop or not, are going to get even more angry and resolute because they feel being cheated out of an international spectacle.


  18. Sorry, there is more to come, but I need to go to class now!

    Have a good one and I look forward to some more thoughtful discussion!

  19. Ni Hao:

    I’m not trying to argue with you guys, and I like the way you replied to almost all the comments here. I think both sides are exaggerating some facts. Here are some of my opinions:

    1. The recent protest in Tibet was violent and many innocent people were killed. Youtube has all the videos. I’m not sure whether Dalai Lama has anything to do with this but at least according to his teachings, violent protest is wrong. Therefore whoever started the riot should be blamed. Even if Tibetians in Tibet have been “oppressed” for 50 years, starting killing people is not the way to go.

    2. Some of my personal understanding on what happened in Tibet. Yes, Tibet did have their own culture and religion back then, and let’s say CPP did invade Tibet 50 years ago and try to replace their culture and religion with communism. But doesn’t it look very similar to what happened to Aboriginal people in North America? European colonizers at that time might have done the same things ot these people, but should we give their land back now? Of course not. History of politics is full of mistakes. The important thing is to realize them and not let it happen again. That’s why we apologize to the aboriginal people constantly and give them a lot of benefits.

    3. In regards to the Tibet issue, I think both sides should start communicating with each other at this point. Killing Han people is wrong, and calling Dalai a liar or death threats won’t get us anywhere. Tibet independence will never happen but CPP should really make some sincere apologies to the Tibetians and stop sending monks into prison just because they believe a different religion. I don’t want to be rude, but just like Aboriginal people, the way Tibetians used to live is primitive. In return of not giving Tibet its independence, CPP should let them have their own religion and at the same time raise their living standards by building highways or other things. Not all Tibetians are monks who pray 24/7. What a lot of them want is to simply hold on to their religion and live a better life, regardless who the provider is (being it CPP or Dalai).

    3. To all the people who think people in China are suffering due to lack of human rights. Well, the truth is, with today’s internet, most Chinese people know what western democracy is, no matter how hard the government is trying to block the information. But they are still satisfied with what they have right now and they will support their government. It’s really funny when I hear some people saying things like “wake up, people in China, and fight for your human rights” whereas people in China do know what human rights and freedom are. The difference is that people in China trust their government, believe it or not. The communist government is not like 30 years ago. They haven’t given up the one-party political system, but they gave up communism thirty years ago. By doing that, they raised the living standards of people in China by a lot. Like what I wrote earlier, if the people have enough money to buy food, house, drive a car, have a happy family, most of them don’t really care whether they are allowed to vote or not because let’s be honest, the only reason we want to vote in the first place is to have a higher living standards. Except having religion or fighting against the government, people in China basically have the same rights as people in North America (not saying banning religion is justified).

  20. About recent protests. First, taking down Chinese National Flag on the roof of Chinese embassy is illegal and whoever did this should be ashamed of themselves. You guys are insulting over a billion people by doing that.

    And the pro-China protest. Let me just say that’s why I hate young people.

  21. It is quite embarrassing watching SFT make erroneous arguments again and again. I guess when you learn from bias western sources, you will never be free of arrogance. A common argument being made is that the communist invaded Tibet in 1950. This is fundamentally wrong. Tibet have been part of China for over 400 years.

    The communist government reclaimed Tibet in 1950 to re-unite China under one rule. China was fragmented into numerous parts after the end of imperialism, mostly divided between Nationalist and Communist territories. (May I also help that European and Japanese imperialism contributed greatly to the fragmentation and general weakening of China at the turn of the 20th century.) Being in a remote region, Tibet was never really occupied by either the Nationalists or Communists – but this alone does not grant the region autonomy.

    I think any protest for a free Tibet is ignorant, and the currently disruptions to the torch relay is foolish. Quite honestly, the Chinese culture does not allow ourselves to stick our nose into other peoples’ business. If we really want to, I guess there are equal grounds to disrupt/boycott the Vancouver Olympics for our poor treatment of the natives or the London Olympics due to the current world problems lingering from British Imperialism (see Middle East, Kashmir, etc)

  22. My last arguments for the night…

    As a Chinese, our nationalism must be defended – history and facts are on our side. As a immigrant to Canada, I also understand the reason why my family have chosen to move to a democratic country. This is where the line have to be drawn. Protesting against dictatorship rule in Tibet does not equate to anti-Chinese rule in Tibet. In fact, the Dalai Lama is with me on this argument, so the SFT should do this too.

    Cathy and your fellow protesters may looked brave to native Canadian. But to the 1.3B Chinese population and to the people of countries oppressed by western powers (see Middle East), you are an arrogant fool.

  23. Chuck – do you realize the forefathers of this country killed the culture of the natives?

  24. In the end, this isn’t about Tibet at all, is it?

    This is about Chinese opinion vs world opinion, the truth or issue has nothing to do with this.

    For the first time it can be seen that China’s worldview has been carried over by their immigrants in such a vocal display. However, I wish to remind our Chinese friends that you live on foreign soil now, and have just as much, if not more, patriotic duty to Canada than to your former homeland.

  25. I have just read through half of the comments posted by various people. It really disturbs me that most comments are full of hatred toward Chinese.

    It is true everyone should have right of speech. However, the SFT is going too far. The SFT makes me easily think of a Nazi youth organization.

  26. Woah!
    I was busy with school the whole week, and just look at how many comments we have here! 🙂 It’s a good thing though.

    Thank you for taking the time to write a lengthy reply. I admire the rationality in your words and I just hope more people in China actually supported dialog between the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government. But judging by the Chinese state media’s recent smear campaign against the Dalai Lama, I doubt the ordinary Chinese would be able to understand and appreciate his true intentions.

  27. @mike:

    I don’t know how many times I must’ve repeated this line, but your argument is typical of that of a colonists. About Tibet being a part of China for 400 years, I’ve already laid out my arguments in a previous post.

    Tibet had its own government for as long as Tibet existed, whether it was under the suzerainty of the Yuan or the Qing(which were both “outsiders” in the eyes of the Chinese citizenry, apparently. The Mongols and Manchus, respectively).

    “The communist government reclaimed Tibet in 1950 to re-unite China under one rule…… Being in a remote region, Tibet was never really occupied by either the Nationalists or Communists – but this alone does not grant the region autonomy.”

    Why doesn’t it? Can Turkey now invade and occupy Greece and say it is “reclaiming” it to re-unite the territories of the Ottoman empire? That is not logically valid, and in fact is an argument that is an impediment to progressive discourse on the issue.

    “Protesting against dictatorship rule in Tibet does not equate to anti-Chinese rule in Tibet.”

    I really do think there are numerous inconsistencies with your argument. The CCP with the might of the PLA invaded Tibet, removed a theocratic government and replaced it with an authoritarian government. I don’t think the Tibetans particularly felt/feel ‘liberated’. We have only heard the ECHOES of protests calling for the end to Chinese rule in Tibet, the actual SOURCE for the protests of anti-Chinese rule are coming from inside Tibet!

    “Quite honestly, the Chinese culture does not allow ourselves to stick our nose into other peoples’ business.”

    That is not true. The occupation of Tibet and the resulting 87,000 deaths(the conservative-est estimate I could find out there) of ordinary Tibetans is ‘sticking the nose in other people’s business’, methinks.

  28. @dgupta:

    please cite where you see “comments that are full of hatred toward Chinese”. I can’t seem to find any, or maybe I’m just too biased. 😛

    Also, I think it is my responsibility to inform you that there are hundreds of comments by pro-China folks which have been moderated and duly removed because of foul language, racist remarks, and not to mention the occasional death threats.

  29. Truly speaking, I am so angry about the attitudes of
    western media recently. Tibetans have their right to
    express their unsatisfication. But there is no reason
    to kill innocent people in Tibet. There is no reason
    to attack embassies. There is no reason to hijack the
    Olympic game. Did western media report for both side? Non-Tibetans’ blood is not bloody? Fortuantely,
    Chinese can use modern media like blogs, web-sites,
    YouTube, etc. to fight against traditional media, like
    CNN, BBC, etc. In the new epoch, no truth can be
    concealed. From the behaviors of Tibetan independents, I saw no tolerance but violence. I lose my sympathy for them. Violence and intransigence are not the ways to freedom and democracy.

    Manipulation by western media is making worst
    consequence. Because of their manipulation, they are losing credit, especially in China totally. Consequently, western media really help to enhance the Chinese government. At least, they have solid proofs to show the common people: you see what western media did. As far as I know, western media gain real reputation as compared to Chinese media. After this time, no one in China will trust the western media any more. It will be a disaster to the democracy progress in China in the future. Media SHOULD be independent and just. Western media currently are illustating a so bad example to Chinese people. Extreme nationlism may be spread in China.

    In China, as minor groups enviable by the majority, they are enjoying a lot of benefits, like having more than one child, attending colleges at lower scores, etc. Now on the web sites, a lot of Chinese suggest the government should revoke their rights of minor gourps and learn how US treated native Americans: slaughter them or exile them to some reservations. I feel so chilly. If China is a “democratic” country, can the majority may vote to kill the rest? Like in the Culture Revolution, poor poeple persecuted the fewer rich people in the name of democracy. In the past 150 years, Chinese were already miserable. Free Tibet? How much blood should be shed eventually? Kosovo is a very bad example made by the western world. I really doubt if peace will come on that land.

  30. @free_etm:

    First off, welcome to the SFT Canada blog!

    The protests in Lhasa which intumesced into a subsequent riot was spontaneous. 50 years of bottled rage can be quite spectacular when released, as we’ve seen in the recent Tibet uprisings.

    “There is no reason to hijack the Olympic game.”

    I would like to respectfully disagree. While I can understand and appreciate the pride of the Chinese people in hosting such an important world event such as the Olympic Games, I feel it is the CCP who is “hijacking” it.

    The CCP had informally pledged to improve its human rights record which is one major factor which led China to become the 2008 Olympic host. Looks like those were empty promises. The recent crackdown in Tibet, the jailing of dissenters for no apparent reason before the games, the 60 or so still jailed over the 1989 Tiananmen protests, persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, and the list goes on…

    “Did western media report for both side? Non-Tibetans’ blood is not bloody?”

    Looks like you haven’t really watched or read anything from the “western media”. They had in fact reported the deaths of BOTH Han Chinese as well as the Tibetans, while also mentioning the respective sources.

    In reality, it is the Chinese media — which is spoon-fed information by the CCP — who did not and has not, till date, mentioned the 150+ unarmed Tibetan protesters killed by the armed police all over Tibet. Are Tibetans’ lives not as important?

    “Violence and intransigence are not the ways to freedom and democracy.”

    Intransigent? Tell that to the Chinese government. The Dalai Lama has extended his hand to the CCP by making great compromises, but the CCP — innately stubborn — has yet to let go of its haughtiness.


    Note that Tibetan women are still subject to forced sterilizations and abortions. Benefits such as those requiring lower scores sounds advantageous and it is good that the Chinese government is taking some steps to overcome the vast disparities.


    I am surprised there are some Chinese who write stuff like “slaughter them or exile them to some reservations” on websites. It simply shows their ignorance and lack of moral sensitivity. But, there are always the usual oddballs in all camps.

    “If China is a ‘democratic’ country, can the majority may vote to kill the rest?”

    If China is a democratic country, they should respect people’s right to self determination. If the KMT would have stayed in power and if China would’ve been a democracy, then I’m certain Tibet would likely even have gained status as an independent nation.

    Here is an excerpt from a speech by Chiang Kai-Shek in 1945:

    “As regards the political status of Tibet, the Sixth National Kuomintang Congress decided to grant it a very high degree of autonomy, to aid its political advancement and to improve the living conditions of the Tibetans I solemnly declare that if the Tibetans should at this time express a wish for self-government, our Government would, in conformity with our sincere tradition, accord it a very high degree of autonomy. If in the future they fulfill the economic requirement for independence, the National Government will, as in the case of Outer Mongolia, help them to gain that status.

    If you guys want the transcription of the full speech, please point your mice here.

  31. @gyrad:

    I would like you to see this image: http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8825/82971659dl8.png

    As you can see, it’s a picture posted on CNN, with the heading “Report: 100 Dead in Tibet Violence”. On the CNN website, you see a man running away from the army.
    But in the full photo on the right, you see a group of Tibetans throwing stones at the army truck that provides aid. The picture on the right was obviously the real and full photo.

    Now my point:
    I believed that CNN showed bias in the article. If they actually did report on both sides of the story, then they could have showed the full picture and probably a heading of something other than “100 Dead in Tibet Violence”.

    A lot of stuff gets manipulated by the western media, and they obviously do not report on both sides. From what I seen, almost all of their articles are either about violence by the Chinese, Tibetans has no right, or something else which is against China. What CNN posted was an excellent example; manipulating the photo and not reporting on the real thing.

    And @gyrad, sorry but I do disagree with all of your points, but I do not have much time to write about them all.

  32. Oppression occurs all around the world. Why target it specifically in China?
    China has simply been the target of the west for an extremely long time. Why do no Americans or Canadians care about the Japanese-Chinese wars and the atrocities performed during that time? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking?

    In addition, over the past few months, western media has been presenting both twisted photos and lies. Simply look at this website to get an idea – http://www.anti-cnn.com/. You don’t even need to understand Chinese! Just look at those photos and videos.

    Tibet has been under China’s rule for so long already. How is this too much different from the situation with Quebec and Canada? The only difference is China’s political system. But this does not mean you have that Tibet is simply fighting for freedom. If Tibet and Quebec were to both become separate, independent countries, how long do you think they could last before their living standards both dropped beyond acceptable? How could they possible sustain themselves? How long would it be before either Tibet and Quebec demand more from China and Canada, or beg to return to the supportive economies?

    One outrageous demand Tibet has made is that they take the Chengdu and Xinjiang (unsure about the last) provinces from China if they were to separate. Not only does Tibet want to separate, but they want to take one of the largest provinces with them! Imagine Quebec demanding that they take Ontario as well when they separate, the industrial heartland of Canada.

    I believe the main issue here are the international protestors. In short, they are simply getting themselves into something they have no idea about. Before looking to other countries to boycott, look at themselves. Canada and United States have oppressed the Aboriginals beyond belief. Do you think they had the right to barge onto these continents and claim everything for their own? Do you think the small compensation they get makes up for it? Human rights is an extremely tricky issue all over the world, and it exists all over the world, whether countries like to admit it or not. The entire Pro-Tibet, Pro-China argument is simply a political ploy now that China is on the verge of entering the world stage.

    Finally, the Olympics. The Olympics have always represented peaceful competition of sports, without the involvement of international politics, though they have often played a large role. However, we must return to the roots of the Olympics. It is an event where athletes compete in their sport, and nothing more.

    Did you hear about the criminal ring that China broke planning to kidnap the athletes when they came to China? How about that for peaceful protest.


  33. And I think this has been mentioned, but prior to Chinese occupation, the Tibetans were living in much worse conditions than they are now. They lived in a system between feudalism and serfdom. The Dalai Lama even had slaves during his time in Tibet. Do you think that reflects well on his human rights record?

    Please do not get me wrong, I believe the Dalai Lama is a good guy, I just disagree with his cause.

    China has also pumped in millions of dollars into Tibet to boost its economy, including building a multi-million dollar railway connecting it to the rest of China. Where would Tibet be without China? Like Bhutan, having its first democratic vote in all the centuries its been under imperial rule, and the people don’t even know what democracy is.

    However, the Bhutans were happy with their emperor and did not complain. The Tibetans were happy with their Dalai Lama, and did not complain. But here is where your true objective comes into play – do you believe they should be happy or have human rights? Because if you believe in human rights, both Tibet and Bhutan have low living standards.


  34. Hi, Gyrad:
    “First off”? To let me off?

    Thank you for the comments even at 2:11am.

    I think you may have misunderstood my points. My key point is that I object any form of information manipulation, like using pictures in Nepal as if in Tibet. I only warned you of following consequences we don’t want to see.

    Words and behaviors are so different. I disagree with you that only because someone saying violent and foul words, you can them “oddballs”. Think about using Chinese to defend your thesis. Reviewing the past 150 years, you should find humiliation imposed by western powers. Chinese may become sensitive on western interference. Do you know something that Dalai Lama group (note that my words, may not be himself) was and is being sponsored by CIA to do some dirty stuffs? They have proposed that all non-tibetan Chinese should leave a quater of China from their own land? I don’t think any one will accept it. Do you know some history in Tibet before CCP “conquered” it? If you don’t study them, I don’t think I have reason to talk with you. I agree with a US professor (not a Chinese) on Tibetan history, Dalai Lama is not such an angel. However, his words are full of wisdom and he is a successful diplomatist. Unfortunately, only because of ideology, some truths are manipulated from both sides.

    About human rights, I totally agree with you that the status in China is not so desirable. Note that it is not only to Tibetans. But please leave some space and time. Ice will be melted in the sunlight. Don’t drive them up to the wall. Negotiation needs strategies.

    About the right to self determination, we can decide a seperation simply. I am a Canadian living in Quebec. I object Quebec independency because I don’t think Quebecios can benefit from it.

    I have to go. Talk to you later on. Thanks. Please don’t call anyone “oddball”.

  35. @jFus:

    I was replying to free_etm in my previous post taking into account his/her broad, sweeping generalization of the “western media”.


    The violence used by Chinese police and the repression of Tibetans are facts and they should be reported. But I somewhat agree that the media has been more favorable towards the plight of the Tibetans, but then again after 50 years of persecution I think it is only right(and long overdue) to shine the spotlight at the CCP’s misdeeds and atrocities in Tibet.

    In any case, why are the CCP supporters so offended by the so-called “western media bias”, while they don’t utter a word against the MASSIVE and obvious bias by CCTV, Xinhua and other Chinese state media outlets? That sure as hell is double standard at its purest.

  36. @free_etm.

    Hello there again. “First off” = click. Not to let you off. 😛

    Yes, I agree. Using images of Nepal and India and presenting them as incidences in Tibet is not right. I guess the media felt compelled to use them because of the lock down and lack of independent media access in Tibet.

    I used the term “oddballs” to refer to individuals with extremist tendencies and ideologies on both sides, but if you feel offended by me using it I’ll refrain from doing so.

    About the CIA being involved in supporting the resistance operations of the Mustang guerrillas, I am completely aware of it. The Dalai Lama’s brother Gyalo Dhondup fled from China — where he was forcefully sent to receive “patriotic re-education” — and reached India where he contacted the CIA for assistance.

    It was in fact the Dalai Lama who urged the Tibetan guerrillas to stop the violence. Many resistance fighters committed suicide when they saw and heard the Dalai Lama urging them on a video tape.


    I haven’t heard of that before. But I have heard of the TGIE’s demand for a Greater Tibet Area which encompasses almost the whole of Qinghai(or Amdo, in Tibetan), and parts of Gansu, Yunnan, and Sichuan(which form parts of the Tibetan province of Kham).

    Never did I say that the Dalai Lama is an angel. He is human and hence, like everyone, he is not perfect but at least he strives to be practical and level-headed unlike his chain-smoking counterparts in Beijing. Have you gone over his stance lately? And have you heard of the ludicrous ways using Cultural Revolution-style rhetoric, in which they still address the Dalai Lama?

    “The Dalai is a wolf in monk’s robes, a devil with a human face but the heart of a beast.”, said Zhang Qingli, hardline leader of the Communist party in Tibet. I literally burst out with laughter when I heard that one as I’m sure you have too.

    I know democracy will take some time to come about in China, but the religious/social persecution the Tibetans(and the Chinese) face is steadily worsening, and my worst fear is that the Tibetan(and the Chinese, of course) people will get so frustrated with the CCP that they take up arms against the govt and feel they’d rather die than live under the repression. I just hope the situation can be resolved before such a thing comes to materialize.

  37. Okay, I see that no one has responded to my arguments. I guess I’ll take that as a sign that my arguments are pretty solid.

    🙂 Please, can someone just challenge it to make this interesting???

    Anyways, here’s an interesting article. I don’t agree with everything, and some facts are wrong. If you want to debate it, please don’t use stupid arguments about simple factual errors but the issue at hand:

    Why They Hate China

  38. James,
    elzilcho is probably busy with work. I’m sure he’ll reply when he has the time. And since your last post was directed at him, I think its best we let him reply. Anyway, I’m exhausted trying to reply to multiple folks, who have the same misconceptions, over and over again. I just ask you for your patience.

  39. I lost all my typing about a thousand of words in one second due to some virus, I guess. I want to cry. So here only write some key points.

    The neighboring ethnic groups may have a lot of conflicts but also a lot of mutual benefits in the history. Sometimes, it is that you have me and I have you. As outsiders, we would better to stand outside but keep on supporting justice. It is not a good idea to stimulate conflicts among different groups.

    Riots in Tibet may have a lot of reasons rather than 50 years of “persecution”. If there were a persecution, we should not make two persecuted groups stand on two sides, like now.

  40. The whole world is laughing at the ridiculous chinese accusations, e.g. TYC being a terrorist organization, The Dalai Lama supporting a violent crackdown, The CIA supporting the Dalai Lama, and pro-Tibet protesters getting paid 300 dollars each for supporting Tibet.

    I mean, honestly, EVEN if you have to make up stories, at least make realistic ones. TYC a Terrorist Organization? Do you know what terrorism is? It usually involves terrorizing people by killing them and other violent means.
    Secondly, The Dalai Lama has time and again, relentlessly said that he doesn’t want complete independence or separation from China but genuine autonomy at least. You think he’s afraid to say FREE TIBET?
    And finally, people getting 300 dollars each to support tibet gets the ‘Award for most ridiculous CCP manufactured story’ .
    HONESTLY, 300 dollars each? The Tibetan government in exile must be extremely rich to afford such expenses. 300 people times even just 1000 people = 300,000 dollars. WHOAH hahahaha. pretty expensive protests I say, and thats excluding the banner costs and slogan practice and tibetan history education, all of which of course, was done the night before.
    Bravo new mainland immigrants, not only have you given in to blind nationalistic sensation, you have also been a subject of successfully generated hatred of Tibetans through propaganda. The TIBETANS ARE EVIL people who HATE Han Chinese because, they just hate their faces, and their, yeah, their faces, pretty much.
    On a more serious note, even the Tibetan protesters have time and again repeated the fact that they are never against the CHinese people but the government run by the ruthless CCP.
    And WE KNOW, come on, don’t deny it,
    EVERYONE KNOWS, the Chinese people don’t make up the government, or their opinions.

  41. @ free_etm:
    care to talk about other reasons rather than the last 50 years of persecution? It’s ironic for you to suggest that we support justice when people are getting killed. So when exactly do you suggest is the right time to interefere?

    And to all the Tibetans I have talked to so far, none of them want any conflict with the Chinese people, rather it is the communist regime they protest against. So of course, creating cultural/racial conflicts should be discouraged and seems like the Tibetans want none of it.

  42. gyrad – I don’t think the Turkey/Greece example applies to Tibet. Here is why:

    1) Tibet formally submitted to the Yuan Dynasty and no actual fighting occurred. In all subsequent dynasties prior to the invasion of Tibet by Britain in 1904, they have relied on Chinese troops to repel western aggression in numerous counts. The relationship between Tibet and China was consensual whereas the Ottoman’s presence in Greece was not

    2) Greeks are catholic; Turks are muslim – they are different people. DNA evidence suggest Tibetans and Han Chinese comes from the same lineage. Han Chinese settled on the Yellow River but Tibetans continued to be nomads. Also, dynastic China (and many Chinese today) are practitioner of the Buddhist faith

    Also, you said “The CCP with the might of the PLA invaded Tibet, removed a theocratic government and replaced it with an authoritarian government.” However, your so-called theocratic government have had no real power from the very beginning! In fact, the position of Dalai Lama was set up by the Yuan Dynasty as a superficial government – not theocratic. And for the years in which the British occupied Tibet, they kept the Dalai Lama in place but they hold all effective power. I would say the years between 1911 to 1950, there was a British created power vacuum in Tibet, but definitely not a theocratic government.

    I think you misunderstood me. Obviously, all the atrocities committed by the CPC in Tibet should draw worldwide criticism. However, the CPC committed such atrocities on all ethnicities of Chinese in every part of the country through land reforms, education reforms, cultural revolution, Tiannamen Square, etc. Pro China supporters believe that sovereignty of Tibet is not the same argument as human rights violations in Tibet. I give my thumbs up to people who wants to protest the Olympics because of human right violations! You can argue why there are no free press and why there so many political prisoners. But the sovereignty issue – it’s really not an issue in my mind.

    You cannot question western media bias on this issue. Today, 5,000 Chinese Canadian from Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa converge on Parliament to rally for support of the Olympic torch, and to voice our opinion about the truth of Tibet. News coverage hid the story in the middle of the broadcast. But whenever your organization did something, you are lead the broadcast. Nothing was mentioned of how Laidlaw company in Mississauga canceled our bus rental contract in the very last minute to sabotage the rally. Funny thing was how Global News managed to put a negative spin on the pro China rally because 15 of your members were led led away by the police for precautionary and safety reason for crashing our rally. Obviously, those 15 people were looking for trouble, but this have become a violation of human rights.

    To Ugen Wangchuk – can you please provide me with your source for the $300 story? Never heard such a ridiculous claim either.

  43. wow…sorry about the poor grammar above. Typing fast and late never lead to good results. why are there no edit tool on this board?

    anyways, one more point to gyrad and to your organization as a whole…I don’t expect to change your position, and you should not expect to change the position of 1.3 billion Chinese people. China’s place as a power is cemented. Whatever negative image about the Olympics you think you have created, you cannot deny the reality that it is Chinese money that is bailing out Wall Street, and that our Canadian economy have benefited from China’s consumption of our resources. For these reasons, there is a very very small chance that any developed nation will boycott the Olympics. Harper have to keep people like you happy by not ruling out boycotts, but he also have to look out for your jobs and keep good relationship with China. Your organization’s efforts may have raised awareness of this issue to citizens of western nations, but it does not promote practical actions.

    On the other hand, your organization’s actions have caused the Chinese government to increase censorship, and raise a social barrier in front of Chinese within their border. If you and other human rights group believe you are fighting for the people within China, isn’t your organization counter-productive?

    Also, can you also answer why your organization calls for a free Tibet even when the Dalai Lama repeatedly state that is is autonomy and not independence that he wants? This is what annoys me about you guys – why is a bunch of Caucasians (yes, i know there are also sizable Tibetans and other races in your organization) taking up a fight beyond what the spiritual leader of Tibet actually want?

  44. @mike:

    Let’s not forget that the Yuan dynasty was a Mongol dynasty. The Tibetans and the Mongols had had a relationship decades before Kublai Khan conquered China, in which the Mongols had agreed not to conquer Tibet. Also, during the reign of the Yuan dynasty, the Mongols never integrated the administrations of Tibet and China in any way.


    It was only during the Qing dynasty that Tibet relied upon its eastern neighbor’s protection. The earlier Ming dynasty had virtually no ties with Tibet. The relationship between the Qing dynasty and Tibet has often been described as choe-yon(meaning ‘priest-patron’), which basically meant that the Dalai Lama was to become the spiritual guide of the emperor while the the emperor was expected to patronize and offer protection.

    They offered protection indeed, but not to “repel western aggression” as you put it, unless you’re referring to Nepal and Mongolia as “western aggressors”. Qing influence in Tibet had worn out and was entirely ineffective by the time Tibet was briefly invaded by the British led by Younghusband in 1904, as you rightly pointed out.

    BTW, I brought up the Ottoman Empire example not taking into account religious affiliations(or lack thereof), or genetics for that matter, but solely because of its similarity to the political case of Tibet and China…. as in the “re-uniting” of the old empire without mutual consent but instead by militaristic intervention.


    Hmm… very interesting. The Yuan dynasty ruled from [1271 – 1368] whereas the first Dalai Lama to be titled so within his lifetime was born in 1578. You might want to reconsider your statement, or actually, the whole paragraph because I can’t really see why you don’t acknowledge the existence of the theocratic Tibetan government before the invasion of Tibet by the PRC. You’d only be deceiving history.


    Obviously you’ve been taught to embrace the “one China” policy. It really does sound very uniting to be under a ‘one China’, but it would be ideal if it was more like a union of states like a fictional CAU(Central Asian Union – like its EU counterpart) where independent democratic states like China, Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, etc, would be in economic and political partnership. But of course a thought like that is considered taboo, innit?

  45. Sorry, I would reply to your second post but I’m sleepy and exhausted right now. I’ll leave it for some other kind soul to answer. Or maybe I’ll chime in with a reply the next time I’m around here. Good night.

  46. Both the Mongols of the Yuan and the Manchus of the Qing reverted to traditional Han Chinese practices, teachings, and systems. We are all indiegenous people of that land – calling them different will be like saying the Blackfoot tribe and Cree tribe are different people. True, the Yuans were not ruling at that time, but rather, the remnants of the Yuan Dynasty set up the position of Dalai Lama.

    I will argue that the most ideal government China can form would be a federal republic much like United States. All of the territories you have mentioned (plus Taiwan) have different arguments as to when and how they became a sovereign of China and should not be lumped into one argument.

    History showed that China have had authority over such areas spanning to the Ming Dynasty (and possibly beyond). All of these places have heavy reliance with the Dynastic governments in Xi’an. Today, the same social, political and economic dependency exists with Beijing. Obviously, everyone would repel totalitarian rule if given the choice, but does anyone wants to be indepedent of a fictional democratic China? In fact, I am very confident if Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Taiwan have a seperatist referedum from a fictional free and democratic China, everyone will say no.

    Also, please refrain from generalizing people like me to be an agent of the Communist government. I immigrated to Canada from British colonized HK when I was 4 and have spent my entire education in Canada. You are belittling my intelligence by saying I have submitted to propaganda.

  47. Hi, everest:
    Thank you for the reply.

    Correction! Tibetans are one ethnic group in China for long time. So the saying of Tibetans versus Chinese makes no sense.

    I dislike Communism system as you do. Definitely, I am not Communism supporter. Even Chinese government committed to be a Communism is no longer a Communism country. However, in history due to interference of western powers, communism was adopted as a system in a specific period in a specific country to rebuild ruin of war efficiently. Fairly speaking, when CCP was rising in China, it WAS a clean and healthy power and thus gained the power. It did make a lot of disasters. Meanwhile, China achieves economics success, life expectancy improvement, women libraration, concerns on minor groups, etc.

  48. About riots in Tibet. I would like to tell some economic reasons here. Chinese government is investing billions of dollars to Tibet. You should know that Tibetans are richer than the other average non-Tibetan Chinese. However, compared to business men from the surrounding provinces, they are short of economic links and they are relatively simple-minded. We should know other parts of China manufature most products. In Tibet, Buddism monks are sponsored by Chinese government but it is impossible to make every Tibetan to be one. Although the quota of monks is much high but not everyone can be satisfied. It is ridiculous to use tax from the other Chinese to those monks. Additionally, not an economic reason, Tibetans need a figure to worship and take care of their after-death lives. In Mao’s time, they even worshiped Mao Zedong as a sort of Budda. This is their culture. As a result, non-Tibetan Chinese are not satisfied and meanwhile Tibetans feel some “outsiders” take their money. It lets me think about the lives of First nations in Canada. Can they be satisfied even they receive money from the government? It is so complicated for any country to face. Not only in China! Also, don’t forget China is poorer than Canada.

  49. The key point why so many Chinese are furious is because the western media manipulate information and some people supporting Tibetan independents do not really know what they are doing.

    Again, manipulation by western media is actually enhancing Chinese government. It is not good for the future democratic progress in China! Voice should be just!

    Distrubing touch relay is a insult to all people not only Chinese. Supposing Chinese government blocked western media in Tibet, given the behaviors of those Tibetan independents in Nepal and India, we SHOULD imagine what happened in Tibet if we don’t have any prejudice!

    Chinese in Canada had been imposed on heavy head-tax in the history. The 500$ in 1900s can buy two houses in Montreal. Should they have the right to rob a bank?!

  50. Hi, everest:
    About killing in Tibet, you should provide solid proofs. You can not get information from “exile Tibetan government” only. I heard some ridiculous figures before, like 87,000 were killed. Before 1950, Tibetans had about 1 million. Now they have 2.6 million. If Communism party killed so many people, where they get so many now?! It must be a miracle.

    CCP is changing now. There still exists some progressive power inside. All actions of the Tibetan independents actually are hurting them. Like in 1989, Zhao had to leave his position.

  51. Hi free_etm,

    please do away with your ignorance. chinese army intelligence reports itself admit that the PLA killed 87,000 members of the tibetan resistance in Lhasa and surrounding areas between March and October 1959 alone. [Xizang Xingshi he Renwu Jiaoyu de Jiben Jiaocai, PLA Military District’s Political Report, 1960]

    What do you mean Tibetans had about 1 million? even this paper written by Beijing does not agree with you:

    i think you dont know alot about the real facts. you shold do more research before trying to make argument. thanks.

  52. @001dumpling

    Thank you for your correction. I double-checked my figure. Sorry that It is for Xizhang. By the way, thank you again for the paper. From the paper, it gives us solid proofs that Tibetans increase significantly. My key point is wrong? 87,000 is a confirmed figure?

    Even I made a mistake, how can you say “i think you dont know alot about the real facts.”? You know, please provide, like the paper!

  53. Hi, 001dumpling:
    Do you understand Chinese or Tibetan? Have you been to China? Have you been to TIbet? Tibetans are devout Buddists with pure-hearted mind. I am pretty sure that those violent people are only minor! As outsiders, please don’t stimulate conflicts between two groups! “Free Tibet” is not a very suitable slogan rahter than “Human rights in Tibet”. Personal opinion.

  54. Too exhausted to write. A short joke for your guys.

    On a ship, the captain and the first mate don’t like each other. One day, it is a turn of the captain to write log. That day, the first mate was drunk. So the captain wrote: ” First mate was drunk today.” The first mate was so angry. “I was drunk only today.” “Yes, it is true. so I wrote it.” Then it is the frist mate’s turn to write log. He wrote: “Captain was not drunk today.”

    We should have the ability to question. No media can give you 100% information.

  55. hi free_etm,
    the paper i provided was written in beijing(hence more biased towards ccp stance) and there are numerous “facts” in the paper which the scholars still dispute. i was just saying before you make argument, plz dont assume things and plz also provide facts that are not fabricated like u did in your other posting.

    do you know tibetan laguage? have you been to tibet? do you know any tibetan? I AM A TIBETAN!

  56. Some comments about culture genocide. When a group with relatively “advanced” culture meets another group (normally with less advanced technologies), unfortunately, the “advanced” culture may dominate. How to protect an extinct culture? It is really a tricky question. The best way is to learn it. However, how many of you want to learn something like Cherokee? In China, there are about 100 persons who can understand manchu. That group has ever ruled China for 268 years.

  57. Hi, 001dumpling:
    I don’t know Tibetan. I have been there and know someone (not so familiar). I would be very happy to have a Tibetan friend.

  58. Utterly despicable. This is the kind of thing that makes countries rethink their immigration policies.

    You do not bring your nationalism with you onto our soil, when you live here you are Canadian first before anything else. Do not forget it.

  59. Hi, Guest:
    I agree with you that we are Canadians at the first place. So it is so ridiculous for Harper to hide corrputed criminals from China, like Lai Changxing and Gao Shan. Use your ballots to throw them away.

  60. No, it is you who are utterly despicable ‘Guest.’ Who said these guys weren’t Canadian first? Who said Canadian and Chinese nationalism aren’t compatible? Who said protesting against pro-Tibet policies is against Canadian nationalism? I don’t see Chinese-Canadians ever protesting against the Canadian government do I?

    If anything, the Canadian government has wronged most asian immigrants in the past through pratical slave labour on the railroads, head taxes, immigration acts by nationality, and internment of Japanese canadians. But that is the past. Cretian has apologized to the Japanese community. harper has apologized to the surviving Chinese immigrants from the early 1900s. Its all in the past, and we aren’t against the government. So don’t accuse us of not being Canadian enough. Some of my Chinese friends have been in this country for 6 generations and fought for Canada. Maybe that’s even longer than your ancestry here. I defend my country Canada and my heritage every chance I get, and it is my goddamn right to do both.

  61. To Guest:

    Sorry, you are wrong. First, SFT or any other pro-Tibet group is an interest group. The opinions of SFT does not reflect the stance of the Canadian government or its people. Yes, democracy and human rights are the principles of Canadians, and all Chinese Canadians should stand by this. But recognizing Tibet as sovereign is not a principle Canadians believe in.

    Secondly, we live in a society where people are allowed to voice their opinion. The Pro Chinese rallies have 3 purposes: 1) an expression of support for the Olympics, 2) support for one China principle (based on historical facts), 3) protest against media bias. There was no expression of support for Communist China at all.

    Lastly, people are allowed to take the opposite position of yours. For example, can you blame Americans for being barbaric/un-patriotic for being on one side of the Iraq war?

  62. lol guest ur absolutely right.

    it’s also utter despicable for westerners to barge in and comment and criticize on other nations. the chinese-tibetan affair can be solved by the chinese and tibetans. what right do you have to make judgement on such an issue?

    so much for ur human rights… u don’t even give the right for foreigners to protest on canadian soil. what an utter sham… just goes to show how crap western double standards really are.

    my advice for tibet is to follow their OWN opinion… don’t ask for western help. Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Checheyna ..all asked for western help… and look at them now… western nations really don’t give a shit about tibetan welfare…

  63. The actions of the Chinese people show that they are not different than the butchers and barbarians who control the PRC. How dare they behave this way in a country other than their own. Of course this sort of behavior in China would just get them shot. They should all go back to their barbaric so-called nation.

  64. Dennis – your racial slurs are a great contribution to this forum. I am sure sympathy for the Tibetans will greatly increase because you are calling every Chinese person a butcher. Let me remind you that the “butchering” of native aboriginals was the way in which Canada and United States were founded.

    It comes to no surprise that the English media downplayed the massive 5,000 rally in Ottawa with Chinese Canadians from Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. The 3,000 contingent from Toronto made it to Ottawa even though Laidlaw bus company canceled the bus rental contract in the very last moment. I just want to see if any of you Free-Tibet people out there have any idea of this massive event.

  65. mike, i heard about the rally on ctv. actually my friend was there too. u know tha dozen or so pro-tibet activists who were being howled at by the pro-china “peaceful protesters”? she was one of them.

  66. Free Tibet –

    You have done a great job uniting the Chinese from all walks from life, and all over the world. When you tried to grab the torch from that disabled athlete in Paris you crossed the line. Good luck with your journey for independence. You will have to deal with 1.4 billion people who are united against you. And that is a lot of people if you can’t count well.

  67. u know guys are sooo weak….. every time u are loosing an arguement, all u do is say one chine one china…. and when u see a westerner protest and support pro tibet rally, u ask them, oh do u know the history of Tibet?have ever been to Tibet? and almost have of these chinese bloggers are international students…. forgot about tienemein square???/? want me to re read the that history?????c’mon guys you are suppose to be the smart educated asians, who respect territorial boundaries,human rights,democracy…
    look at this video and tell me that this is not injustice….if u don’t call this injustice i don’t know what u wanna call injustice…
    Chinese officers sniping Tibetans like bunch of dogs…i don’t see how PLA liberation is any better….anyways look at that video as a human being not just as a chinese person…cuz b4 any nationalism we are human beings first….thank you….

  68. hope this helps you think a little…

  69. mr ture – please read my “well educated” post on the non-bias version of tibetan history. You won’t agree with me because you think it is communist education. But I am telling you right now, the very same history was written the very same way since the Yuan Dynasty.

    The weaklings are the human rights/pro-tibetans/pro-falun gong protesters who lump all the problems in China together without seperating what is right and wrong. The British invaded Tibet in 1904, politically encouraging Tibetans to seek sovereignty when they left, causing all the current debate. Same thing happened in another territorial hotspot – the Diaoyu Islands with the Japanese. These islands were then part of Fermosa (Taiwan). When the Japanese invaded the island, the American forces help us defeat the Japanese. But America ceased the island to the Japanese after the war. The Chinese people suffers defaming actions from foreigners all the time.

    The communist killed many monks in Tibet after they reclaim the land. They did the same thing all over China – they killed detractors of the communist party to solicit power. It was very unfortunate when the government confiscated the proeprety of wealthy families in Guangdong and force family members to different parts of the country. Does that give foreigners the right to start a “Free Guangdong Campaign”?

    It is sad that people like you remain uneducated and misinformed on the issue. You like the stance of CNN because you think it is in the best interest in the west (even though the real educated leaders, politicians, and business people feel otherwise). You see what you perceive as a good cause for your people – to weaken China politically, socially, and economically. Why do I take a such a strong position? The action of your organization and other protesters have only caused the central government to reverse the social and political opening within China – so you are definitely not fighting for freedom. You claim to practice non-violent protest, but every time I tune into a broadcast featuring you guys, you provoke physical confrontations.

    I want to conclude that I am not anti-west by any means. I think people like you have enjoyed a lot of press coverage because you are exuberant. I work in Bay Street and I know my colleagues do not share your views, and they are open to learning both sides of Tibetan history. Other Chinese people who post here thinks all of Canada takes the stance of SFT and CNN. They overreact in their postings.

  70. Mike,

    The trump card for all your thoughts seem to rest on CNN. Yes – this is a major player in the western media and yes, we’ve benefited from the coverage that we received there. But please don’t assume that we are somehow entrenched with CNN, or any other media source, all wet and faithful.

    No. That is not why we take to the streets to protest the Chinese govt. My family in Tibet was shattered because of the violent repression there. A whole generation has been displaced and a culture on the brink of being whitewashed.

    Why is it that you seem to be more horrified at torch relays being disrupted, rather than at the fact that political prisoners are being executed or human rights activists being detained without fair trial in China right now?

    The linchpin of your arguments is that of violence. And I agree — violence in any capacity should be condemned and thoroughly rejected. However, if your cause of indignation is over a few people getting ruffled versus a generation of people being systematically eliminated and subdued, then you sir, need to seriously reconsider your priorities on humanity.

    Working at Bay St. or not.

  71. mike mike mike!!!!!! calling your post “well educated” and calling someone else post “uneducated” is truly ridiculous,and please u tell me, i’m misinformed by CNN and other western medias????i’ve actually studied the history of Tibet for almost 2 years…i know about the Tibet issue in details before the western media started covering it this year….and about the West being against China…the only reason the west isn’t doing anything is because of China’s economy growth which supplies worldwide, other wise they know about the situation in Tibet, they would’ve been taking a more aggressive stance than now…and you accusing Tibetans for trying to weaken China politically,economically, and socially is totally bogus statement…politically all we Tibetans are asking is for our land which belongs to us rightfully, and Communist Regime of China to respect Human Rights….everytime you turn your TV on you said you see Tibetan protestors being violent instead of peaceful right….thats why i say stop looking at Chinese media which are controlled by the communist regime of china…they want you and all other Chinese people to hate Tibetans….don’t let a communist mind control you…. man seriously i myself have lots of Chinese friends here, i talk to them openly about the issues of Tibet, but i always remind them what is the issue and who is responsible for it…Issue a Country illegally invaded,Cultural Genocide,Extreme Human Rights Abuses….who is responsible—CCP(Communist Chinese Party)….hope these things sheds some light on you mike…

  72. Let’s see…the Singtao Daily of Canada is a subsidiary of Torstar Corporation. This begs the question of how Canadian Chinese media is controlled by the communist party.

    I spent my entire education in Canada. When I see the situation not from the position of a “Canadian”, that makes me a communist troll?

    I’ve said it all along – there are plenty of problems with the CCP. My stance on this issue has always been that first, Tibet is an issue of geography and history. Human right violation is a terrible problem in every region of China – Tibet is no exception to the Cultural Revolution or Tianamen Square.

    I am very in touch with both sides of the Tibetan story. I know what a communist textbook will say. I know what a pre-communist era Chinese textbook will say. And I know what a western/Tibetan textbook will say. However, I find it strange that westerners seems to neglect the British invasion of Tibet from imperial China in 1904 and how sovereignty was complicated through political manipulation by the British when they left! Sadly, Britain have created many wars and ethnic battles with such tactics (see Kashmir, Middle East, etc). You guys seem to pick your history to suit your arguments.

  73. mr true,

    I’d just like to comment that throughout human history, there have been many instances of civilizations or countries dominating and destroying one another. Who do you think is being oppressed in Palestine/Israel? Why does Tibet get so much media coverage, when thousands of men, children, and women are being killed in the Middle East every year?

    I am not middle eastern, nor do I pretend to speak for both sides (i’m simply citing the issue as a point (though I have studied the issue thoroughly from both sides before)), but it is important to recognize that what is happening and has happened in Tibet has happened and will continue to happen throughout the world’s history and future.

    I would also like to mention as an extremely radical thought which I take full responsibility for – we would not have gotten to where we are without the conquering and destruction of many civilizations in man’s history. Yes, it is a bloody path, but we have benefited greatly from it (i’m sure you cannot deny that many of our modern inventions are quite amazing).

    In my opinion, the Chinese government will value Tibetan culture, even if it is to simply make western nations more quiet on the issue. However, if Tibet tries to violently separate, I feel that China will not take to it very lightly. In fact, I believe that, if Tibet attempts a full revolution, China will have the military strength and will to suppress it.

  74. Pingback: Ethnic Protests in China Have Lengthy Roots - NEWS AND ARTICLES – NEWS AND ARTICLES

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