Monday, May 26, 2008

Mah Yofis'nike ModOrth Rabbis

Rabbi still wet behind the ears feels good about himself, likes to see his name in the news.


berl, crown heights said...

פרצוף דורש סתירה

Anonymous said...

wet ..... er hut noch nit a chasimas zokon. efsher a counselor in camp.

Anonymous said...

Can the rabbi find a boser kosher Kosher boser deli in DC ? who needs it Marion Barry?

SartmarTC said...

he learned that he would not have been accepted as a shochet in Agri ,and now he wants to be a Big Rabbi

yossi said...

Instead of realizing what a mess Agri has gotten into (and by extension Lubavitch)you attack the messenger.Typical Lubab
Why don't you start a fight in Monsey to change rt 306 into Admor Shlita Ave??

Isaac Balbin said...

What is wrong with you all? If he had a white beard and peyos would his suggestion have more standing in your eyes? Why do you need to make fun of someone for his view? It's not exactly an outlandish suggestion.

We are in Sefira. Shelo Nohagu Kovod Ze LoZe. Go figure.

berl, crown heights said...

Most definitely not. His suggestion is more than just outlandish - it is pure evil. But in addition, he is a young arrogant fool who also happens to look the part.
To follow your logic, does very person, no matter how misguided or even evil their actions, deserve "kovod"?
Btw, is this 'rabbi' giving Rubashkins any 'kovod' or at least presumption of innocence?

Shimon said...

Do you think if you use bombastic words it''ll change anything??
'His suggestion is pure evil'
'Presumption of innocence'
Drivel.The illegal aliens plead guilty already.We are speaking here about hundreds of workers!.Agri has been in the news nonstop for the last couple of years.What 'presumption' are you talking about??
You are as usual your partisan self who would never see 'innocence' in others, while demanding the benefit of the 'doubt' from others.

Guravitzer said...

He needs a stethoscope and a white coat. What happened to the MO dream of medical school?

berl, crown heights said...


I do not for a moment claim there were no illegal workers at the plant. There were. Hundreds of them. But you are being disingenuous, if not worse. Even Rubashkin's worst enemies do not have the gall to condemn them merely for hiring illegals - the whole country is hiring illegals and everyone knows it. What these people use instead, are other 'more serious' allegations (most too ludicrous to mention), none of which have been proven nor even officially charged.

And last time I checked, 'being in the news' is not a crime. So presumption of innocence is the least one should expect from the so-called "fellow Jews". Guess not these days. These days, if you don't want to see a witch hunt against a fellow jew or see them destroyed by PITA or INS, you must be a partisan. Otherwise, why would you defend them?

The main point: this "rabbi" suggested that Rubashkins be boycotted by the Jewish community now. Translation - they should be effectively shut down for mere allegations of 'serious charges', even if the US government decides they may stay open (for if they get shut down by the feds, you don't need a boycott, do you?). And that's not 'evil' in your book?

Friendly Anonymous said...

A new definition of "yoshon", as it applies to Rubashkin meat, and here I was just getting used to Yoshon with flour (people seem to have forgotten the Bach that our parents relied on in Lita).

nemo said...

Do you truly believe all of the allegations against Agriprocessors/Rubashkin? It seems a bit sensationalist to believe that a company that knew they were under scrutiny would allow all of this to happen. There were always secret cameras filming what happened in the plant. How likely is it that the company just allowed every code, regulation or crime to be broken? Besides hiring illegal immigrants, they're being accused of knowingly: having a meth lab, physically abusing workers, forcing sexual favors, extortion, unsafe working conditions, animal abuse, environmental waste, forging documentation, underpaying, overworking, defaulting on debts, and the list continues and grows daily. It sounds like every possible allegation that could come out to destroy a company is just being thrown out there, perhaps by unionists, Conservative activists via the media, former workers looking for a plea bargain, or other people with a stake in destroying the company.

I highly doubt most of the allegations are true and firmly believe that these stories are surfacing in an attempt to further besmirch the company. If some of the events did in fact happen, such as "sexual favors," they were isolated incidents that have nothing to do with the corporation (or Orthodox Judaism for that matter).

No one forces illegal immigrants to take jobs, and certainly not to keep jobs where they're being abused. Rubashkin wasn't keeping slaves and the fact that so many workers remained for so long and moved their families out to Iowa indicates that conditions weren't as bad as the media wants us to believe.

Time, investigations and legal action will tell what really happened at the Agri plant. Meanwhile, I'm going to continue enjoying Rubashkin meat just like I always have- or at least for as long as the prices don't skyrocket. I'm not bothered by the fact that the company hired illegal immigrants, because that's the order of business in the meat industry and everyone does it. Besides, I recognize that Rubashkin in chiefly a business, and Jewishness and lawful practice is really an aside in my mind. It is naive to look up to a business as a spiritual or ethical icon. Organizations that make a boycott based on the religiosity and piety (or lack thereof) of a company's owner, are utilizing a cheap irrelevant ploy that detracts from the real issue.

Until actual abuse is proven - which may happen - I will not stop purchasing Rubashkin meat.

schneur said...

Lets have a bit of objectivity here.
I know this fine young man, he was the asst to Rabbi Avi Weiss in Riverdale for many years. He was an outstanding student at Yeshiva University and a grad student at Columbia. He is a serious man not some publicity hound as many shluchim are.
As far as youth and lack of experience, Lubavitch should be the last to talk. You have shluchim all over the US who are rabbis only because they are married. Have no experience in anything (besides having never gone to colege and knowing the 1st thing about how to talk to non Jews, interact with other faiths and political leadersor even to speak Englsih corectly)and issue bombastic statements concerning communal issues in communities in which they have hardly resided.
You know what --- lots of ordinary Orthodox Jews agree with rabbi Herzfeld.

Mottel said...

In this day and age the only way to be a Posek or Rav of some worth is to come up with new chumros on a regular basis . . .

Friendly Anonymous said...

I'm glad I found Nemo.

By ignoring the fact that Rubashkin is conducting themselves according to industry norms and calling for a higher standard to be applied to them, Rabbi Herzfeld implies that he would readily buy food from a non-Jewish company than follows the same standards as Rubashkin, but he would not do so from Rubashkin.

Where in the Torah is it commanded that Jews must put themselves at a competitive disadvantage vis-a-vis non-Jews? Only a Non-Jewish Union (and evidentially Rabbi Herzfeld) could think up of such a rule.

berl, crown heights said...

nemo is 100% on the money.

Friendly Anonymous said...

the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation publishes a lot of books trying to explain what Loshon Horo consists of, but for real-life examples, one can't do better than The Yated and Maryles.

The one positive thing I can say about both is that they are equal opportunity bashers.

Something curious about the whole Agri mess is that the government hasn't charged anyone in management with any crimes, yet Harry wants Agri to be forced to sell their business, teh Washington Rabbi wants to force them out of business, etc.

berl, crown heights said...

The aibershter will surely avenge Rubashkin's blood - and what is going on is nothing short of שפיכת דמים !

The Bray of Fundie said...

without commenting on the particular case or Rabbi I'd quibble with your terminology Tzig.



This approach is still the primary one for most Charedim although we are richer and, in the west, physically and politically more empowered than our forbears ever were.


Hence IMO by definition they cannot be mah yufis'ls. The mah yufis khanfas he before whom he dances. The difference between khanifa and a compliment is sincerity. The MO sincerlry admires many planks of secularism, higher education and non-Jewish culture and mores. Despite pronouncing a shelo asani goy every morning the words probably stick in this Rabbis craw as, no doubt, the words shelo asani isha do.


MO has liberated it's adherents from the constraints of Jewish particularism. They are free to tsk tsk "Chilul HaShem" at every tiny percieved and/or real infranction of their co-religionists and don't feel beholden to the concept of "my people....right or wrong"

Arthur said...

Shneur,you said,
First of all I would check your English and spelling before you deride others.Secondly,some of that which you write may be true but the pliah is that they are for the most part extremely successful in spite of their shortcomings,which can be attributed to the Ribono Shel Oilem and,gasp,the koach of the Rebbi ZT"L.By the way I like your use of the word "bombastic".There's yet hope for your usage of the English language.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Are you saying the RBS"O does not support the efforts of the MO Rabbis? Or for that matter that the Rebbe zy"a didn't even if they are not officail shluchim?

MIB said...

as usual i'll contribute a bit of genealogy;

rabbi herzfeld is a great nephew of r' zalman moshe hayitzchoki.

his descends from the reines family of zembin

he is a wonderful young rabbi from whom many others can take example

Anonymous said...

According to Avi Weiss, his talmid should side with Agri handing out jobs to illegals all in the spirit of MLK the rebbe of Avi

Milhouse said...

Berl wrote: "Even Rubashkin's worst enemies do not have the gall to condemn them merely for hiring illegals."

You'd think this was true, but it seems not. What I have discovered over the last few years, and especially over the last two weeks, is that these Modern Orthodox windbags have a completely different Torah than us. Not only do they not feel any need to be loyal to fellow yidden, not only do they absolutely deny the fundamental difference bein yisroel lo'amim, but they have elevated dina demalchusa dina to an ikkar in the Torah.

They really do feel moral outrage that Rubashkin would dare to play games with the immigration laws; and I have no doubt whatsoever that these very same MO petzer would say R Mendel Futerfas deserved to sit, because he conspired to break the immigration laws of two countries, and was a forger and a briber and a black-market dealer. Remember, he was in fact guilty of all the crimes he was charged with, and there was no antisemitism involved in his arrest and sentence - a goy who did the same things would have got the same sentence. He was a terrible criminal, and it's a pity he didn't sit even longer, and when he got out he should have been shunned by all Toe-rah Jooz.

These are the spiritual (and perhaps the physical) descendants of the German Jews in WW1 who refused to help Jewish POWs because they were the Kaiser's enemies.

Isaac Balbin said...

Milhouse, you are drawing long straws and calling people names.

The issue here is not one of guilt per se but rather whether on the face of the evidence unfolding there are grounds for a "temporary injunction".

In context, I don't see such a view as translating to generalisations about MO having a completely different Torah or elevating Dina DeMalchusa to strata that "your" Torah doesn't.

A relative of mine was also imprisoned for black marketeering immediately after World War 2. The "Malchus" at that time was the same as the "Malchus" that Reb Mendel encountered. Indeed, that has a bearing on Dina DeMalchuso, because even if the law is applied equally, you need to have a respectable "Malchus" in place, not the anti-semitic revolutionaries of those times.

Rabbi Genack is MO and the OU haven't deserted Rubashkin to my knowlege.
It would be facile to claim that Rabbi Genack is only holding onto Rubashkin because of the income to the OU.

I am certainly not in a position to make pronouncements about the propriety or otherwise of Rubashkin or Rabbi Herzfeld's views and/or actions, however, I maintain that the comments and blog article which attempted to poke fun at Rabbi Herzfeld have no place. It's not his face or place of learning that is important. People should focus solely on the issues and approach that he raised.

berl, crown heights said...

If you are correct, it is a very sad reality indeed. I had a similar (not specific to immigration) experience with an MO person this year. Perhaps we should just assume that they are like unobservant Jews, lower our expectations and stop getting upset when these people speak as they do. After all, we don't get upset with the frei...
That's it, I am no longer upset with you people! I love you! "Excuse me, are you Jewish? Did you put on tefillin today?"

Avi said...

Apparently if you push the buttons Chabads so called 'ahavas yisroel' comes out.SO,Lubavitchers, are these the things you say about MO's behind closed doors??
So all that 'ahavas yisroel' is a farce?
Btw, how low can one stoop when even R'Hertzfelds physical appearance is mocked?
Sounds like we've gotten the wrong picture on those 'loving ' Lubavitchers.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Stop eating fruits and vegetables: there is strong evidence that many seasonal harvest workers are illegal immigrants.

Stop using public restrooms; most toilet cleaners are immigrants.

Stop vacationing at hotels: all the cleaning staff that I have ever seen are immigrants.

moshe der g said...

people i have an idea

the next time you go out to eat in a fancy resturaunt and you see a MO person ask him how he is eating in a place that employs illegal immigrants. almost all resturaunts in new york do.

and the next time you see a MO ask him if did any cinstruction in his home or business. because 90 percent of construction comapnies has illegals working for them.

and if he is shopping in any grocery store or supermarket in the city ask him how he can? they hire illegal immigrants.

why dont people see this all for what is is. mesira from jews against jews. false accusations.

the goverment was not looking mainly for "illegals" when they made the raid at agri. they were looking for "drugs" and "weapons" did they find any? NO sothey dont want to look like fools so they say yes we accomplished alot.

and to all. yes they will charge managment with crimes because all the illegals were told if you testify (falsley i might add)against the management you will be granted immunity and will be give a green card. so even an indictment is nothing more then part of the goverments way to prove they were right.

hashem yiracheim on the rubashkin family and may he give them strenth to overcome this fiasco. and may klala yisrole be spared more troubles.

Guravitzer said...

Schneur, thank you for your biased opinion. To review, for those few who do not yet know you, Shluchim who go on their own dime and as a rule do not offer opinions on other institutions in town, rather offer inspiration that they gathered through their own inspiring education, can somehow be compared to a shiny face on someone else's dime offering opinions on an institution that he has never visited or examined and is not in his community.

Could it be that your position as YU librarian carries some bias towards YU Musmachim? Yesh LeAyen.

Mr. nonfriendly anonymous, the shiny face says lack of Yiras Shomayim to us for shaving. I will still treat any such Jew with respect, because at the end of the day they may be doing so because minhag avosam or of their community corrupts them. Meaning, he only walks like a duck, but may not talk like one. But once he walks like a duck AND talks like a duck...

Friendly Anonymous said...

Millhouse, it sounds like there is an eerie similarity between the way MO relate to Chareidim, and the way that assimilated Jews related to their co-religionists in pre-WW11 Europe.

berl, crown heights said...

Has any of you visited the website of TheNationalSynagogue®, the shul where this yetzir serves as a minister?

If you do visit the site and manage not to vomit in the photo gallery section, you will find that this dude makes time to celebrate and savor Martin Luther King Jr. Day with events in the synagogue (from pictures it looks like the event included gospel singers from the local church). He makes time for joint 'walks' with churches, etc. One has to wonder, how did he fit kosher meat concerns into his busy-busy schedule as he tries to build his very-non-PR-oriented and very "serious" TheNationalSynagogue®?

G-d bless the internet! It is a בחינה של יתבררו ויתלבנו ויצרפו רבים

schneur said...

I can only imagine what this chashuve blog would be writing if the owner of the plant in Postville was someone by the name of Fruchthandler and Schron.
For the sake of full disclosure, I have NEVER hidden my "connection" with YU. As if I am in any administrative or "power" post here.
But rabbosai how many of the Rubashkin groupies here on this blog have had full disclosure. How many have relatives on the payroll of Agriprocessors or a Kashrus service related to that firm.
How many have worked for Rubashkin, how many are related by blood or marriage to Rubashkin or someone in a impt post in that corporaion. How many of you guys don't know someone who is on the payroll in Postville ?
Next all the qualities you attack Herzberg on ,are the qualities Lubavitch excells - like Mah yaffis, Public relations, visiting all sorts of govt officials and getting some cheap kavod.
But what my bothers me worst of all is the "nit fargineray " of many Lubavitchers. When some other rabbi gets a PR opportunity , you guys begin to cry. In the New Orleans flood, you - yes you Tzig were upset that the Jewish Week gave a cover story to another orthodox group as if rabbi Rivkin had not gotten enough coverage and pictures to last a life time !. If HAMODIA doesn't give Lubavitch its pound of flesh you are back to crying (after all Bais mMshiach & Kfar Chabad - the magazine -has dozens of articles about Vorke, Radomsk and Biale) When Barry Gourary got on the front page of Newsday in 1988, you guys were livid. After all they should have had another story about the rebbe.

Hirshel Tzig said...


you know me better than that; I never write about stam scandalous behavior in the business world. Had I wanted to I could've written about the 2 characters you mentioned here.

Nemo said...

I don't know anyone employed by Rubashkin, I'm not related to them and the only relative that I know personally is a second cousin and filthy rich is his own right.

nemo said...

Also, I'm just in disbelief that the National Synagogue serves Chinese Food to celebrate Lag B'Omer! :)

What happened BBQing???

Anonymous said...

If you are smart enough why are you stooping to demagoguery, nobody would say anything if this schnook would get up in the morning and get his 15 minute of fame on some ethical issue as opposing the war in Iraq or global warming, but dancing on blood just for the sake of fame is almost begeder mossur,
Kfar chabad magasineis a inside Chabad newsletter and they don't proclaim to cover Klal Yisroel as the 2 rags der Yid and Der Blatt you know well
Disclaimer, I have no business, family or friendship affiliation to Agri, but to their well priced chicken that I buy with cash in a local grocery.

Anonymous said...

Did you see this yet ?

schneur said...

Fter the federal govt raids Rubashkin and makes hundreds of arrests , and weeks later Herzberg is begeder mosser ?
I did not realize this young rabbi must be real competition to the Chabad man in DC rabbi Szemtow.
Compettion for what to spread Judaism , I doubt that ...

Anonymous said...

As you know that this thing is not in court yet and it can still be thrown out by a judge as the case in Texas with the children of the Mormons that the judge threw out the case, so the bottom line by us Charedim lashem iltorase aiding a Goy versus a Yid is a mossur,not just a Uncle Tom

schneur said...

Just wanted to report some more news for FT Crown heights. The Pittsburgh Jewish Chronicle of May 22, 2008 on p. 27 reports the following statement of Rabbi Yisroel Miller of the Poale Zedek shul there"Miller said he would not ban the purchase of Agriprocessors meats as long as they were certified kosher , however he said If there are alternatives available I would prefer the alternatives"He added that it was important to reserve judgement It always pays to remind ourselves that people are innocent until proven guilty".
So this is hardly a hater of Rubashkin calling for the purchase ofthe alternative product without prejudice of the final outcome. (Miller is the Orthodox rabbi of an Orthodox shul)
Can you live with that ?

Anonymous said...

Isn't it amazing that Rabbi Miller has no problem with Alle Processing using in Argentina a certain method to release the Gas of the cow that according to most poskim of the Eida Hacharidis and the states has a big problem of trifes even bedieved,I believe he has no idea about that problem because the last time he looked in a Sefer Halacha, was when he had a Bas Mitzva shailo, plus we are not sure that the labor laws in Argentina are in line with Rabbi Avi Wiess Bies Horoha that are famous machmirim almost as the Chazon Ishnik kolel
Schneur U are too much in the walls of the Morgenstern Library.
Disclaimer, no Agri Affiliation in shape or form

nemo said...

Rabbi Weiss is the Rov of a MO shul, but he is far from being Modern Orthodox. He's more Lakewood-type.

(I grew just up the street from Poalei Tzedek.)

Arthur said...

The so far unproven (as of yet)accustions being hurled against the Rubashkins is snowballing by the hour.We seem to be working on the premise of guilty until proven innocent.When we take anyone and subject them to such much shfichas dam mamosh lchol hadaios we are performing a unforgivable Avlah. Certainly to a family who have performed such tremendous amounts of gemilas chasodim.
In addition it gets all the rohches crawling out of the woodwork.
Here is only one example of a talk back to an article in the Jerusalem Post on this matter.
Rubashkin is a Russian Orthodox who never properly made Giyur & joined Chabad in order to leave USSR. He cheated customers in his NY grocery & brought up his sons as cheaters. When Menahem-Mendl Scheerson got sick, cheaters & crooks took over Chabad. AgriProcessors is only the tip of the iceberg. The whole Chabad is a corrupt rotten old boys club. Shheytim who took drugs can not make proper cuts. All of Rubashkin meat is TRAIF! Good Jews should learn shehita themselves. It's not that hard. We should have mini-prosessors near our communities.
Jew Farmer - USA (05/29/2008 01:15)"
Hashem yirachem

faish said...

Tzig has made his fame by accusing a popular rabbi of writing a book and not writing exactly to the 'exacting' standards of Tzig,Berl&co,all this based on ONE SIDE OF THE STORY!!!
Suddenly the Chbdskers are screaming 'innocent till proven guilty'
Blah,blah.Two faced chazeirem.

Hirshel Tzig said...


the "other side" is that the other side didn't bother to have the facts before condemning.


nemo said...

I wrote: "Rabbi Weiss is the Rov of a MO shul, but he is far from being Modern Orthodox. He's more Lakewood-type.

(I grew just up the street from Poalei Tzedek.)"

I meant Rabbi MILLER.

schneur said...

I really can't understand why no one from CH can have any sense of objectivity about Agri. No one is asking for them to condem their "bother" but just to say hey there may just be something wrong there, and that something may not have anything to do with Lubavitch . After all what does Chabd have to do with corruption or personal greed or mismanagement. Lets get objective and reasonable, Can we say that?
Morgenstern is a dorm and I wish I could sleep there rather than do what I do ...
By the way I was in 770 last week, the washrooms are clean and sanitary , and welcoming more than I can say about other mosdos in Brooklyn.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if I qualify as a Modern Orthodox windbags but dina dmalchuta dina , according to many authorities, stems from the power of malchut which is certainly a torah issue.

I do find it interesting that several posters seem to have elevated a beard to the level of Ikkar (oops-now we might have to discuss what ikkarim really are:-))

Joel Rich

Charlie Hall said...

The Orthodox Jewish community in America has been plagued with lashon hara regarding kashrut for decades. Can everyone who is now defending Agriprocessors swear by a sefer torah that they have never paid any attention to anyone who ever said that rabbi X's kashrut was not acceptable? There are serious but yet unproven allegations of violations of Jewish and secular law, and admitted violations of immigration law by the hundreds -- which continued after the government gave Agriprocessors formal warnings in hundreds of cases. While this does not in itself pasul the kashrut, it does raise the question of what standard we wish to have in our community. Would you eat at a restaurant whose owner is perfectly shomer Shabat but was rumored to be carrying on an adulterous affair?

Also, Rabbi Herzfeld is not the first rabbi to speak out about potential problems with Agriprocessors. Rabbi Yitzchok Adler in West Hartford was concerned two years ago:

Faish said...

Charlie Hall and others,
Understand please, that the defense of Rubashkin/Agri has nothing to with real facts or opinions.It is the defense of Lubavitch that is the calling of the Tzig,Berl,Millhouse &Co.They fervently believe that this defense is a 'higher calling' which allows one to lie,badmouth and twist to fit the agenda of Lubavitch 'ubber alles'
When the Tzig decided for some reason that bringing a one sided story about Yeshiva R'Chaim Berlin was in order to score brownie points in the 'war' with Chaim Berlin, he did so (btw, the 'war' with Yeshiva Chaim Berlin is a one sided figment of Lubabs imagination,Chaim Berlin have not heard of this 'war').
When he thought that a story about one of the most respected rabbonim who died 20 some years ago who add to brownie points he had no problem badmouthing him (In fact the story he brought from some 'eideleh' yingerman was interesting in the fact that this yingerman was prepared to turn his own mother into a 'rashante/witch' to further the Lubavitch cause, something that has tinges of Russias' Stalin era).

Rubashkin/Agri have been in the news repeatedly for all kinds of violations.Do you Lubab actually think that a company that employs hundreds of illegal aliens is 'ok'?
What were these guys thinking, that a company with such a bad previous track record would get away with it? It shows such a lack of 'shikul hada'as' that one cannot help but feel that their kashrus may also be tainted.
Millhouse the 'talmudist',
Have you ever heard of 'kalo delo posik'? Benefit of the doubt becomes a problem when stories don't seem to stop.The funny part is Lubavitch are machmir to take a shoichet who is a 'yirei shomayim betachlis', can people who constantly bring a chilul hashem in the news be considered 'yirei hashem betachlis'?In this case where the owners seem to be the problem it's much more severe than the shochet.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I also know of another Kolo deLo Posik: all Jews are liars, cheats and worse. It's a Kol that's been out there for thousands of years. I think we need to check it out. Also, we know that Jews killed Christian for their Matzos.

a reader said...

The rabbi in question did not send a letter to the Washington Post; he sent a private letter to the local Vaad Hakashrus. That that private letter was made public was the first mistake, and it was not his. The second mistake is assuming that a lack of years also means a lack of knowledge or should mean a foregoing of the responsibilities inherent in being a shul rav. Talk about self-centered--this is not a Lubob problem, this has to do with kashrut-related issues. Someone is getting all paranoid for no reason.

Hirshel Tzig said...

if you think that a major factor in all the Rubashkin bashing is not about him being a Lubavitcher, then you're naive.

Mottel said...

Charlie Hall -employing illegals,however deplorable, is NOT the same the thing as adultery . . . Please.

Anonymous said...

What it's really about is that you're afraid you'll find that what you've been eating from rubashkin is as kosher as pork. It's hard to face reality when bribed rabbis tell you otherwise.

Anonymous said...

If the problem with Agri is Dina Demalchusa then why would a jew be more machmir then the US judicial system that believes that you are innocent until you are proven guilty.

Steve said...

I wonder if the learned Herzfeld would allow his congregation to eat in Le Marais....LOL !
Or do they even keep kosher, I mean if inviting female gospel singers to your shul is ok....why bother with other little dinim ?

Milhouse said...


I speak for nobody but myself, but yes, I do think it's more than OK. I think that if someone wants to work and someone else wants to hire him, at terms that are agreeable to both, they have the right to do business no matter which side of an arbitrary line either of them was born. I feel no shame at all to be the child and grandchild of people who crossed illegally from the USSR to Poland, and I see no moral difference between those laws and the ones that Agri is alleged to have broken.

I agree that the USA has to patrol its borders to keep terrorists and violent criminals from crossing; but honest people who mean nobody harm, and want nothing but to work and earn some money to support their families, I find it hard to believe they are doing wrong by crossing the border illegally, and I certainly don't think it's any business of employers to become policemen and enforce the laws. If you get caught, well, that's the risk you took, and you have to pay the penalty, but that doesn't make what you did wrong.

And the same applies to minimum wage laws. If two people agree on terms, it's none of anybody's business to interfere. If someone's labor is not worth the arbitrary minimum laid down by some bureaucrat, then his choice is to accept less than that amount or not to work at all. I do not believe any malchusa has the right to force someone into unemployment by forbidding them to work for what they can get. That is not dina demalchusa, it's chamsonusa demalchusa, and it deserved to be treated with contempt.

All other allegations that have been hurled at Agri are too bizarre to be taken seriously. Nobody really believes they were running a meth lab, or that they beat people up, or that they knowingly allowed supervisors to extort sexual favors from workers. Those are pure blood libels, and any decent person will ignore them.

So yes, I say that even if Agri proves to be guilty of everything it's been plausibly accused of, they're still perfectly all right. But even if you disagree, and think that they may have violated dina demalchusa, that is such a minor halacha that it pales into insignificance next to the serious averos being done by the lynch mob who are out to destroy them. Deliberately harming a yid's parnossah, calling for a boycott, is 100 times worse than breaking the heilige "law of the land".

And yes, wearing a beard is far more important than the "law of the land". Davening with a minyan three times a day is more important than the "law of the land". Cholov Yisroel is more important than the "law of the land". So don't come all high and mighty with your shock and horror that laws might have been broken; even if all the plausible allegations are proven, the Rubashkins will remain far better people and far better Jews than all their critics.

Shalom Ash said...

A orthodox Chssidic Jew not a Lubavicher!

Anonymous said...

Milhouse said... And yes, wearing a beard is far more important than the "law of the land".
I suppose it depends on how you define important but I sincerely doubt that you would find a posek who says that given the choice of going beardless or violating DMD, that you should violate DMD which involves a transgression rather than (for example) using a dipilatory. But then again , who knows.

Joel Rich

Arthur said...

Joel Rich
I beg to differ with you.There's more to not shaving then the means used to do so whether by "dipilitary" ,so called kosher shavers or otherwise.Most major Achronim such as the Chofetz Chaim,The Tzemach Tzedek and many others are vehemently against it.There was was a sefer written recently,the name escapes me at the moment,that deals with the issur to shave at length.

Anonymous said...

It would be fine if these posters restricted their attitudes and postings to helping the Rubashkins keep making money (and their Postville landlord co-religionist - by which I mean, in the words of R' Schach Z"L "the religion closest to Judaism").

But they are the same type of individuals who defend and hide child molesters, using the same methods of personal attack and no evidence.

That is sick.

berl, crown heights said...

wow, milhouse!
So well put - nothing else left to say on the subject. May it all end well for the Rubashkin family, all the yidden in Postville and, lehavdil, all the honest gentile workers of Agriprocessors.
א גוטע וואך

Milhouse said...

Joel Rich:

1. I won't ask you to read R Weiner's sefer Hadras Ponim Zokon, because it's very long, but please skim it lightly, and you will see how important a beard is. I'm confident that even shaving in a way that has heterim available is still far worse than breaking DdM.

2. Since when does violating DdM "involve a transgression"? What transgression would that be? Which se'if in SA says that one who violated DdM is an avaryan? Where do you derive a positive obligation to obey the law? I can't think of any possible basis for such an obligation.

Arthur said...

To Tzig'
Take a look at the UOJ blog.I tried my best but apparently I didn't succeed.This guy is to good of a word spinner which I am not.Maybe you or someone else out their who has the ability, can do better.This whole issue has made me somewhat despondent to the point where I promised my wife to lay of the blogs.The hatred out there not only for us as Chassidim but for the Rebbe is just overwhelming.Iv'e thrown my hat into the ring.Ad Mosai?

Anonymous said...

It is a clear statement made by Shmuel in the gemara 4 times (iirc) with let man dpliga. There is a lot of discussion amongst the commentaries as to the source (e.g. power of melech) but no one to my knowledge is cholek that it is at least an ancient drabbanan.

Joel Rich

Anonymous said...

re: hadrat panim see:

Joel Rich

Milhouse said...

Joel Rich, I repeat, please cite even one instance where the gemara says that there is an obligation to obey DdM. Please look up the four instances you mention, and see whether at least one of them mentions such an obligation.

(I'm not even getting into the Rishonim right now, and the question of whether DdMD applies at all in the USA today, and if so whether it applies to these particular laws. First let's establish your claim that there is any obligation, ever to obey DdM, even where DdMD definitely applies.)

chaim said...

Cut out the riddles.
You are probably trying to show us how smart you are.
The gemora in Nedorim kaf ches brings down Shmuels halocho of dina demalchusa dina and it's brought down in Ramba'm and shulchan Oruch choshen mishpat shin samech tes.
Since you probably knew that, maybe you can tell us what you are driving at?

Milhouse said...

Chaim, I'm not asking riddles. I'm quite serious, and I mean poshut kipshuto. You're telling me that Shmuel said DdMD. Ein hochi nami, I'm not disputing that. There's a lot to discuss about when it applies, and to what sort of laws, but I don't want to get into that now. Let's just take it that DdMD applies here and now. But what has that got to do with my question? From where do you derive an obligation to obey the law just because it is a law? From where do you derive the claim that someone who disobeys the law is an avaryan?

Isaac Balbin said...

Milhouse: I think you derive it from the Ramban's explanation of the parameters of "Kedoshim Tihyu", if my memory serves me correctly. Unless the allegations prove to be false or largely false, this will have been a Chilul Hashem.

PS. I guess "Eiloo Megalchin" must never be talking about the face?

Milhouse said...

Isaac, I don't see how "kedoshim tihyu" has any connection with DdM. And I don't accept that there is any chilul hashem in being caught breaking the law — nobody thinks less of someone for that, except for these MOs with their new Torah.

And yes, "eiloo megalchin" is not talking about the face; whether it's a din or not, everyone agrees that Jews in the time of Chazal didn't shave. All depictions of Jews from that time show them with beards. So even if it was technically permitted to shave in certain ways, it wasn't customary, and therefore there was no heter for those who couldn't do it before yomtov to do it on chol hamoed instead.