Monday, February 27, 2012

Monks in ADOM II, second attempt

Here we go with a second revised proposal for the special abilities of battle monks in ADOM II... and let me add that monks gain a +1 to DV per level, their unarmed damage increases with experience (as well as their kicking damage), they gain a minor weapon damage bonus, speed slowly increases and the cost of movement slowly decreases with growing experience. But that's all automatic and available on any level.

So here we go with the revised ability list:

  • circular kick (with a -2 to hit) on level 1 if monk is the primary profession, circular kick with -8 to hit if multi-classing,
  • shatter rock with kicks at level 3,
  • feign death at level 6,
  • exchange positions with hostile opponents at level 10,
  • disarm opponents at level 15,
  • throw opponents at level 21, 
  • instant kill chance against monsters of size tiny to medium at level 28,
  • unarmed attacks become magical (which causes them to bypass PV and then only can be resisted by MR - one of the new stats) at level 35,
  • immunity to attacks with fire, ice, electricity and water at level 50,
  • instant kill probability against monsters of any size at level 75 and
  • transcendence at level 100 (which means: immunity to aging, poison and disease, much faster healing and a PV bonus [e.g. reduced damage from attacks]; monks thus are the only profession with a chance for immortality in their natural class progression).
Better? More comments? I'm now no longer happy with the elemental immunities at level 50 and better ideas are welcome!


  1. Immortality it's GREAT.
    I want to feel it coursing my veins ^______^
    More such things in game would be great! More EPIC functions - like spell to destroy whole location for mages - would be great!
    i'd like to change the world!

    1. Some more ideas:
      - chance to bash oponent - after a successful hit the oponent is thrown off one square, and is stunned for one turn. If the square is not free, there is an extra damage for bashing against the wall. If the square is taken by another monster, the other monster may take damage instead, depending on the size.
      - divine sight - ability to see in monsters darkness without a light source, as well as to see invisible monsters
      - free divine mana every x turns
      - ability to control teleportation
      - teleporting to other levels than the current one

  2. The one issue I see is limited mobility options - shattering rock at 3 and swap position at 10 are the only skills where the monk can reposition, and when I envision a martial arts monk I envision someone zipping around the place. A few ideas -

    - A blink door ability (for 50% of your total point [points, not stat]), teleport to any square in light of sight
    - Dragon kick ability (teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy and simultaneously deliver a brutal kick.
    -upper cut: hit the enemy for extra damage and chance to send him flying back.

    I think power 100 is incredibly awesome.

    1. Woops, i meant total mana for the blink door ability.

  3. Able to shatter rocks at level 3 seems a bit too good since that would make pick axes and lockpicking kinda useless. And immunity to poison and disease should come earlier because they are not a problem to level 100 character anymore. Otherwise it looks awesome to me!

    1. Oh and what i mean by lockpicking is that i use mostly wall shattering in ADOM to bypass locked doors and traps.

  4. This looks like a very nice set of abilities. There's lots of good reasons to consider multiclassing to Monk as well--I see natural exits at levels 3 and 10 especially, since both of these abilities are very nice for any class. A level 21 or 28 multiclass might be an option depending on how useful throwing/disarming are, and if the level 28 power applies only to unarmed or to all weapons. Maybe level 50, if immunities end up being really important.

    I think the elemental immunities are fine where they are, personally. I might be tempted to swap rock shatter with disarm for the reason that Troll suggests though. It will still probably be worth getting 15 levels of monk for rock shatter, but at 3 levels it's an outright steal. Unless it operates differently from vanilla ADOM.

    This is going to end up being a problem with a lot of really good abilities though, IMHO. If you front load too many of them on too many different classes, it may end up being very overpowered to take a bunch of classes with good low level abilities rather than even considering going to high level with any one class.

  5. Very nice, I like this list better than the other and I liked the other!

    As a substitute for the elemental immunities, how about levitation? It's a classic, and it would be useful to cross water, lava (because we're going to have lava), acid (because we're going to have acid, right?) and even abbysses (because we're going to have abbysses, right?), etc.

    A weaker alternative would be "walk on water", which is also cool but probably not quite as useful.

    Also, immunity to starving (lack of need for food) at some point would be cool, although it sounds somewhat strong for a low-level ability and weak for a standalone high-level ability (since at least in ADOM I, food is typically only a problem in the early game). Maybe it could just be added as part of the features of transcendence, it doesn't sound right that an ancient immortal monk needs to do something as lowly as eating.

  6. An ability to hit twice instead of once per round, essentially doubling damage, could turn out to be too powerful.

    Once you add multiclassing to the game, it becomes pretty important to clarify if bonuses come per profession level or total character level. If I understood that right, the gradual increases of DV, movement and speed are available on "any level", including the non-monk ones. Now I can't imagine who WOULDN'T pick three levels of monk!

    Al-Khwarizmi, about multiclassing:

    I freely admit I'm being fairly paranoid about this when Thomas has barely talked about it.

  7. How will throwing work? I can imagine versions of throwing that are overpowered and that are underpowered, but I'm not sure I can think of a version that would be both balanced and fun. Could you elaborate on that one please?

    I still think the elemental immunities are a solid class power, but if you want to get rid of them, how about this? Whenever you dodge an attack, it has an x% chance of being a counter-attack instead. This fits with the image of the monk as the martial artist, exploiting gaps in the enemy defences as they attack, and it's also pretty powerful (kill things faster! free attacks!) without being too powerful (your counter attacks still need to hit). The exact value of x would need balancing, but I'd suggest level/2, so a 25% chance of a dodge turning into a counter at level 50, increasing to a 50% chance at level 100.

    I like this version of the level 100 skill a whole lot better too, though I'd suggest it should probably have immunity (or at least resistance) to death rays added in as well. It doesn't seem right that an immortal and transcendent monk should be killable by a single death ray.

  8. Aaah, the updates are so fast! Before I've even had a chance to read the v1 monk ability list, we're already up to v2!

    Definitely wall smashing is too powerful at level 3 - I'd put this at level 15. I also want monks to get a +6 to willpower +6 to learning in there somewhere... I'd keep it mostly the same as you, but have

    Level 3 - either Feign Death or Exchange positions (whichever is weaker)
    Level 6 - +6 willpower, +6 learning
    Level 10 - Feign Death or Exchange positions (whichever is stronger)
    Level 15 - Shatter rocks/walls
    Level 21 - both Disarm and Throw unlocked

    One more thing for Transcendence - It should also make you immune to starvation as well. You can still eat food, but you only do it out of interest rather than need. You also can't become 'bloated' anymore - 'satiated' is as full as you can get. And for extra flavour, the can't eat any more food text is changed from "You're too full to eat any more" to "You don't feel like eating any more".

    I'd cut out the healing bonus for Transcendence though, there are plenty of other ways to get enhanced healing.

    Otherwise the only other thing I'm not sure about is the level 28 ability of your hands becoming magical and being resisted by MR instead of PV. That makes you significantly stronger against some enemies, but significantly weaker against others (such as mages/liches/other high MR enemies). I don't really like the way that works like that.

    I can't help but think that Monks should have a bonus to MR in there somewhere (which we probably haven't thought about yet, because there aren't any magic classes/enemies yet!). I'm hoping we give professional abilities a quick revisit much later, when everythings (mostly) implemented. While we're here, since the new luck/fate system came in, I really think one of the thief professional abilities should be a permanent bonus to luck (it makes sense!). Or maybe bards can get the bonus luck?

  9. I have no idea how MR works yet and who has how much of it, but an easy solution would be to make the fists behave as magical attacks only if it would be beneficial. If MR is simply PV, but for magic, have the fists bypass whichever is higher. MR could also be "the part of your PV that also works against magic", i.e. all MR also adds to PV and there's no way MR can be higher than PV, not even that is necessary. Lyle's point that there's no way to tell yet just how powerful the ability is stands.

    I think kicking down walls doesn't really come too early at level 3 from a power standpoint. At later levels, presumably Mining is readily available anyway, and it's convenience more than anything - and with the increasing spacing of levels, class powers kind of have to get progressively more powerful. At early levels - like level 3 - it might end up a crucial survival tool! Don't forget monks are quite likely to start out in ADOM II the way they did in ADOM; with only the bare beginning of their level-dependant melee power, no armor, no stuff, no money. Being able to run by clearing escape routes in a pinch can definitely mean the difference.

    But not looking at it from a power standpoint, but fluff and consistency with ADOM, I think level 3 is too early, too. Your character has barely started his career as a warrior monk, he won't learn the most basic throws until level 21 (THAT should be level 3, honestly, and possibly scale with Unarmed Fighting weapon skill - a worthy alternative to scaling with experience), but he's already shattering rocks? The ADOM monk took until level 13 to do it, and while that was also fairly early in a 50 level run, a level 13 character had usually broken into the midgame or was about to and was gearing up to fight powerful undead such as Rehetep.

    Immunity to starvation doesn't have to mean knowing no hunger. We're talking all flavor at this point anyway, but I like the concept of immortality being a double-edged sword: "You cannot die of hunger, but eventually you'll wish you did."

    1. Another option is having the magical blows as a class power that must be activated explicitly, and consumes e.g. 1 PP per blow while active.

      That way you can still use normal blows against monsters with high MR, but it becomes a free strategic choice, which is more interesting than automatic IMO.

    2. "more interesting"? I'd say it's "more annoying".

  10. I like this a lot better. It "feels" like the kung-fu monks in movies and TV.

    I'll repeat my request for a Paralyzing Touch ability. It's pretty standard - you see it in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and other movies. This might even replace Instant Kill, or defer Instant Kill ("Death Touch") to later.

    Immunity to elements should come after a weaker Resistance to Elements earlier on.

    Multiple attacks aren't overpowered if unarmed damage is less (on average) than weapons. Also, weapons have magical abilities that the Monk will do without if fighting unarmed.

    Another vote for "best of resisting MR or PV" on unarmed damage, immunity to starvation, and more movement/ short-range teleport abilities.

  11. A solid list of abilities, especially if you include passive DV, speed, etc.

    Maybe mark is right, and monks should receive Paralyzing Touch and Death Touch special attacks rather than instakill chance - leave that for the assassins. It'd be nice if they were activated like circular kick and fueled by percentage of total power points, for example. Or just activateable special strikes with a high chance for effect, but dealing no damage (they're Touch abilities after all).

    Is it possible to have monk switching between magical and normal damage with his unarmed strikes?

  12. I didn't realize there was another post up so I posted on the older list. Sorry for double post if your read part of this there but:

    I like the idea of the leap from Mark's previous suggestion. However it could be modified into something like "flying fist" or as another poster put it "dragon kick" and along with the movement include damage. Essentially utilizing the same mechanic for arrows in Adom except instead of shooting the marker location is where you will be moving. My thought is that the damage could be inversely proportional to the distance. Cap the distance at say 3 or 5 squares for non-full-monks and allow LoS for full fledged monks who are using it to get into/out of a battle. Damages everything in the line for (standard damage)/(squares moved). If using the moving to try to move onto an occupied square include a recoil penalty and end up at original square - something along the lines of being rebuffed if the creature doesn't die or if the move kills the monster then occupy that square.

    This would allow a monk to get in and out of battle situations where he could actually use the circular kick.

    A higher level (lvl 50) could decrease the penalty, increase the distance available, and/or remove the recoil penalty.

    A method for avoiding abuse against moving faster across dungeon levels and/or attacking enemies without anything having a chance to retaliate is to require that the initial position and ending position be next to a monster. At least the initial position requirement to avoid speedily moving across dungeons. Or make this a requirement for not-full-fledged monks.

    I believe this could replace the ability switching with monsters and possibly throwing depending on how the throwing mechanic works.

    Some opponents could have the trait extra-large that would make this impossible such as wall-beasts, and many others.

    I like all the ideas of paralyzing touch/death touch, the divine sight idea but limited to adjacent monsters, no need for food (maybe using a 'weakened' state instead of 'starving' that's non-fatal but bad for other stats or PV), possibly levitation along with transcendence, moving rock smashing to a later level, and having the ability to switch between hitting PV or MR whether that mechanic is automatic or not. All these ideas are really cool.

    Monks are my hands-down favorite so sorry for the long post.

    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

    2. I also like the dodge => chance for counter-attack option. I think that sounds like the most feasible option as well as quite powerful. I think it should replace the feign death which might be better utilized elsewhere where backstab damage is important (i.e. assassins or thieves).

  13. Traditionally shattering rock is a high level achievement for martial arts in many stories. Having it at lvl 3 seems waaaay too early. Think about it, most of us can learn to disarm, throw people and stuff like that, it is attainable to all of us. Shattering rock though that is hardcore.

    Plus on a game level that is like a free no weight pick axe at level 3?

  14. I think you should swap disarm with shatter rock.

    As an unarmed monk fighting many armed creatures surely a top priority for you to learn to disarm your opponent thus giving you the upper hand (since your unarmed skill will be Superior).

    To keep disarmed balanced it should be tied to your experience.

  15. Sorry for noting these late suggestions below but i was really busy at work.Things i can think of are related on observation of rl monks.
    Monks posses exceptional clarity of mind and :

    -walk over burning coal (fire resistance Characterlvl % (100 at 100th level ),or ability to walk over lava? )

    -are extremly resistant to any damage by disconnecting mind from body to not feel the pain (-1 to any damage recieved per 3 character levels )

    -concetrate very hard (do not suffer penalties from fighting with multiple enemies )

    -melt the ice by radiating concentrated heat from body ( cold resistance characterlevel% or simply ability to melting the ice )

    -concentrate the eye and senses( chance of catching/dodging the bullets )

    Hope you can make any use of these

  16. I would again like to promote the drunken style of fighting, giving bonuses to DV and critical hits when drinking booze. Could it be an innate monk ability, like those minor bonuses mentioned in the beginning of this update? Also the ability of using some of the enemy attacks against themselves would be nice too.

    As for the rest of the updated ability list, I like it though I still oppose all those elemental immunities. It just feels more like an elementalist ability. Paralyzing touch would be a cool addition and I suggest that the death touch would be one ability gained later than paralyzing touch and both improving chances of success against stronger opponents as you level up.

  17. no penalties for fighting multiple enemies would be nice.

  18. That's the Courage skill. Why should that be a monk exclusive anyway?

  19. i like the idea of catching missiles, its basically disarming for archers, although it wouldnt be probable for arrows, for a scurgari, thrown club or a scurgar. or maybe disarming with missiles, throwing a boomerang to knock a weapon out of the opponents hands

  20. My opinion on the abilities
    Circular kick- Iconic, hopefully energy cost doesn't make it barely usable.

    Shatter rock - Great ability, but it needs to be given at a slightly higher level

    Feign death - I would need for info about the mechanics but I don't see it working well.

    Exchange positions - Great ability and great level for it

    Disarm opponents - Could go both ways

    Throw opponents - Could be fun and useful if balanced well

    Instant kill chance - I do not like it. It seems to be more of an assassin thing.

    Unarmed attacks become magical - If this can be turned on and off on command this will be great. It rewards knowledgeable and perceptive players, which is always good.

    Immunity to elements - This should belong to the elementalist not the monk

    instant kill probability against monsters of any size - Same as previous. Leave this to the assassin.

    Transcendence - Interesting capstone ability. Hopefully some flavor from the game will come with it.

    I personally think the monk should have more special attacks and unique active abilities to compensate for the loss of prefixes and suffixes on weapons. This does it quite well.

    My favorite suggestion would be the teleport attack described by others. It is genius. Some other suggestions would be an ability that creates decoy copies of the monk to distract foes or some sort of meditation that increases some stat for a time in exchange for spending time immobile and blind.

    Also, Please make the abilities and special attack take the same or close to the same amount of energy as normal attacks. Limit the attacks by making them use pp. Action economy is king and I ended up barely ever using the circle kick in adom because of the high energy cost.

    Love your work
    Thank you for your time

  21. Why do we have to take these powers at a certain level? Just because Commoners/Fighters/Thieves do? The monk's source of power strikes me as somewhat philosophical, not physical. It doesn't really make sense to achieve transcendence by punching x many things to death. Of course the game would be no fun you had to make the monk sit on a mountaintop and ponder for game days upon game days.

    Why not have most of the powers already latent in the monk, and have them advance in strength every level? The template is already there with DV/speed/movement cost. It's not like the monk wouldn't have been taught basic martial arts, or philosophy (resit hunger, pain from heat, cold, all that leading to transcendence) but being a level one initiate he just would not have practiced his skills, had enough time to reflect on the teachings.

    Gaining levels does exactly that, gives him a greater understanding of what he's already been taught/his own latent abilities. So punching/kicking monsters to death trains his martial arts, getting roasted/frozen/zapped/emaciated helps him understand physical renunciation (or whatever Buddhists call it), and the whole schmear leads him to perfect understanding of transcendence.

    Take shatter rock, death strike, paralyzing touch for instance. Why not have that whole thing be one power, such a mighty blow or something? Every level, the blow becomes slightly more powerful. Start with a to-hit penalty (because he's overthinking it, no muscle memory, whatever) that gradually goes to zero, then damage begins a continuous boosting, then maybe it pushes a monster back, then maybe paralyzation, then you can shatter rock, then you're five point palm exploding hearts every 10th hit by level 100. I suppose you could make the argument that it all amounts to the same thing, but I think it would give an in game experience of your character growing organically, rather than having arbitrary powers dropped on him every so many levels.

    As another example, start with a small bonus to starvation level (and elemental resistances, if those are a percentage thing, and not an on/off thing). As the monk spends time walking around scrabbling for food in the early game, that increases point by point such that you never really hit a point where the game makes a hard right turn (Aha! Food is no longer a factor!) but slowly progresses such that you realize when you get hungry around level 40 that you last ate around level 38.

    Likewise with the kicks. Start circular, then gain the ability to direct it (5 for circular, 1-9 otherwise) for extra damage against one opponent. Then maybe knockback, or just go straight to gaining range. Possibly at the high levels be able to bash through multiple enemies (someone suggested that up higher, but I feel like making a Wile E. Coyote style tunnel through a bunch of torsos is something that needs a lot of levels to work evn slightly logically.

    Throws: Start out able to throw. Range you can throw increases, as does extra damage if the monster hits something as well as damage to what it hits (And if you're already punching through walls, why not make it possible to throw the monster through one at high levels? Seems VERY Kung Fu.) Since there's size modifiers, start out able to throw only the smallest monsters, with sharply increasing penalties with size. Penalties for going outside your weight class go down with level.

    I really hope I get some feedback on this, I know the post is old, and what I'm describing is a total reworking of the leveling system, but it might be nice if the gameplay was so different for certain classes (I'm thinking we could make this work for mindcrafters as well) it almost counted as a separate game to play each one. Maybe we could leave the large step-ups for the physical classes, and the gradual and continuous unlocking of ability for the mental ones? Or have a third way for the magical characters? Balanced properly, it would add a HUGE amount of replayability to the game.

    1. On re-reading it sounds like I'm asking Thomas to re-do the entire class system for this one exception. Obviously, getting this game up and running is paramount. But once Adom II is up and moving, and the time for refinement comes, hopefully you'll think of implementing this, or something like it.