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  2. Predestination is active while foreknowledge is passive. The former has god making choices while the latter tries to shift it away from god by his inactivity. I can see how these are different and how people think one is superior over the other but past a certain point they're equally poor. For example, xians love to compare god and humans to parents and kids. So if you have a child a parent might need to let that child experiment to learn lessons. Fair enough. Children need to test the world to learn. So if you actively force your child to touch something hot then that's wrong but if you passively stand-by while they do it so they learn a lesson then that's okay. But what if a parent passively stands-by, with full and total knowledge of the activity and the ability to intervene, while a child slits their wrists with razor blades? Or while they jump off an overpass? Or while they drink a jug of bleach? These aren't little life lessons they imagine where they can quickly pull their hand away and maybe have a little pain for awhile but things that will end that kids life. A parent that is passive in these types of situations are no different than if they had played an active role. I really don't know how anything glorifies this god for most folks. The term seems ambiguous. Seems like people want it to mean something special like pious praise but it just sort of seems to mean something like "fame." So making god famous. Looks kind of like that's happened. This god is pretty famous even though no one actually knows anything about this recluse. I like the one where god is omniscient, but, this very same god wills itself to not know things. A magical compartmentalization. This is just crazy. For some reason this whole explanation just seems like projection. Someone who is just fighting to put aside any "bad thoughts" and focus only on the good imagines that god is doing something similar just in a perfect fashion. If this were compartmentalization like most people experience then it would happen at an unconscious level but god can't do that. So god would have to will itself to not know. Then god would have to know that it has a repository of information "hidden" from itself that it also must "reveal" at select times. This makes god look, I don't know, just weird and pretty awful if we consider some of the information it has hidden from itself is the condemnation of its own creation. mwc
  3. Today
  4. Btw... Your theology is horrendous. But we'll get to it.
  5. I think foreknowledge is generally the way they looked at it when I was growing up. The idea was that god knows the outcome, but has to allow it all to play out accordingly even though he knows how the final judgement would end. But SDA's draw from extra biblical material on this issue. The idea that the earth is but one of many living planet's, all of which went through their own "Eden" test, but passed. Whereas we failed. So everyone's watching the wages of sin play itself out. God could have cut it short, but then others could say he's unjust and didn't give it a fair shake. So it plays on until a time that god the father alone knows the day and hour. But all the same problems remain as far as I can tell. If a god knows the outcome of a future final judgement, then any which way we spin it foreknowledge and predestination don't have much of a distinction. If allowing it play out for others to witness, the issue still remains that he is the judge of the final judgement and has foreknowledge of what that final judgement will be. The god still allows countless people to be born knowing in advance who he himself will judge worthy or unworthy at the final judgement. That's the same as predetermining who will be elect and who will be dammed anyways, regardless of the free will or determinist views as long as they both subscribe to the belief that god is omniscient, which, they both seem to believe. And how does that glorify this god? The question remains the very same. Deterministic Calvinist's don't escape it. Free will SDA's (or any other free will variety) don't seem to escape it either. And it looks like no one can escape it unless they don't believe that god is omniscient. In not believing that god omniscient, they deny the claims of omniscience which are taken from the bible. That would make them deniers of the bible at least in part. And hang them with being internally inconsistent with the bible. The curve ball being that the bible is internally inconsistent with itself, so bible believers are in actuality predetermined to be internally inconsistent along with the bible, by default.......
  6. I'm going with the thoughtless option. People generally don't consider the issue very deeply. Asking doesn't do much good when the people being asked are merely invested in shoring up the faith. Just more salesmanship through false advertising. And they are selling what appears to be an imaginary cure for an imaginary disease. Then waging imaginary threats to those who simply don't buy in to the false advertising campaign. Go figure.
  7. Sorry. I did get sidetracked rather than sticking with you. Yes, let's continue.
  8. Not if he keeps responding. The unanswered questions are not too complex. What do you mean by literal? Where is your evidence for the BBT supporting Genesis? Let's continue shall we?
  9. Does a troll engage in debate with one of your own?
  10. Sometimes the best response to a troll, is no response at all.
  11. Yesterday
  12. Got a chuckle out of that one. To me open minded simple means it is not closed to new information. Not that is chases every idea that comes along.
  13. I like Alan Watts' take on this stuff. Essentially, you are already where you should be. You don't need a discipline, yoga, prayer, religion or any of the "spiritual" trappings we use as not just crutches but as a way to actually put off enlightenment. You don't need it, unless you think you do and cannot accept yourself without paying some dues first. Everyday life is Nirvana when viewed from a different perspective. Of course then, nobody talks about Fight Club, do they? Namaste, bitches!
  14. Welcome back, Leo. Sounds like you are enjoying the place you're at, right now. Glad you're exploring the universal consciousness thing. Consciousness really is the final frontier of exploration, imo. I enjoy considering that the universe and matter are just a manifestation of consciousness. Or composed of consciousness. Kirby Surprise's book on synchronicity has some pretty fascinating ideas along those lines. Maybe add Alan Watts and Michael Talbot to your reading/youtube list (if you like). I'm glad you are enjoying the freedom to think however you like. Yay for independent thought. Anyway, have a good day.
  15. Hi, Leo! Welcome back! Here's some of the latest consciousness research those interested in the mysteries of consciousness have been discussing lately (in yeah, nay or not knowing perspectives): We've gone over several philosopher's and scientists studying the topic of consciousness pretty much in the order below: 1) Peter Russell 2) Donald Hoffman 3) Dean Radin 4) Kirby Surprise You may want to look through these guys if you haven't already.
  16. Hey all, I recently heard of sungazing, the pineal gland, what it can do for you. Now I am personally blind from birth. No optic nerves, just eyes. So, the way I look at it, I'm the perfect one to be able to do this. They say you'll go blind from it, I'm already blind. I don't know about all the claims, probably some of them are true and some not. The guy who was giving the Youtube video lecture on it wasn't selling books, there were no ads, it was not a game to get you to buy their gear. If you can see, they say you're supposed to do it for just a few seconds at either sunrise or sunset. I can't see any light at all, so I need it to be shining heat in order for me to find it. I just tip my head up towards the warm, since I can't focus my eyes properly. anyway, I was very high when watching that video, yes, but when I came down, it still seems like a very good idea. It's free, I can't damage anything -- I'm already damaged goods according to the rational materialists -- and I can maybe benefit. They say you're supposed to stand on the Earth, though sometimes I just stand on concrete so I'm sure not to step in dogsh*t ... stand perfectly straight, take a big old hit from the atmosphere, and look up direct into the sun. I have no idea what it will do, but it's worth the trip maybe. If you do it, chime in. Or if you've heard of it. I don't know what will or won't happen. We already know the "right thinking" people will say it's either a placebo, or demons, both same coin two sides. But come back on this if you want, I'm really curious. Some of you have done this higher consciousness stuff for a very long time, and I'm just taking the first few puffs at it in the past year or so. Leo
  17. What attracts me to animism or Earth consciousness is that there still is no god in the traditional sense of what a god is. We are all just part of the whole, and Earth, which even Neal DeGras Tyson admits is egg-shaped, has given us life. He says "oblate spheroid" and then describes an egg sitting upright. I can see things a bit more clearly now because I've gotten some mental health stuff under control, I'm on antidepressants which I should have been on decades ago ... and so much is clearer. I know a lot of people in the energy community would argue with that, but it's worked wonders for me. I'm not drinking a half gal of whiskey every six weeks anymore, the constant nightmares are gone, and far worse things which got me into trouble to begin with have been alleviated. I also read the Inner Life of Trees and saw the documentary on plant consciousness. I really now do think everything has some kind of life consciousness in it. Rocks, trees, wind, animals, humans, stars, the planet, other creatures we haven't found out about yet. And what's funny to me is both the conservative Christians and the CFI people have essentially the same response to that idea. By "same song", I mean they're singing the same song but different lyrics. You know, if you've played bars as a musician, you can have two drunks singing to that cover you're doing. Each one is singing their heart out, but each is singing totally different words. But they're singing to exactly the same tune. Hell dude, I even started tuning all my music projects to 432HZ after learning about that stuff. Sounds different, sounds kind of warmer -- not just flat. I think there's something to a lot of this stuff which we didn't really get into before, that both sides are trying to keep covered up. Even the whole sonic geometry and the numbers things they've found out. I'm not down with playing to any dogma, but I'm just keeping a lookout on all this. It's very interesting, and certainly those hwho have the knee-jerk oppositional reaction to it perhaps give us more reason to look.
  18. Well what is the prize, exactly? Christians assume that kissing their deity's ass forever and ever in 'Heaven' is desirable. I dont think they have really thought that through. But I remember that as a Christian, thinking was discouraged. Just follow the rules.
  19. I've never heard a predestinationist explain how God chooses who to save. He saves who he saves, is good enough for them, evidently. Maybe it's the ones conceived doggy-style. Makes as much sense as anything else in that wacky world view.
  20. Or taunt others that you will sit back and enjoy watching them get theirs for not believing, coming from William, a predestination Calvinist!!!!!! The people that apparently are not believing (those of us here he is addressing), that he expresses joy in seeing get what they have coming, are only getting what they were predetermined by a supernatural god to get in the first place regardless any choices on their part. God, as far as his beliefs go, predetermined that we'd stop believing in god. So then what sort of person gloats around and taunts unbelievers who were predetermined by a supernatural god to disbelief in that same supernatural god? A jerk? Some degenerate carrying on smirk and smug towards the eternal damnation of his human peers who he is looking forward to seeing burn forever and ever with a holier than thou attitude to boot? At some point people need to look at this situation and ask themselves why in the world they would even want to be a part of any of this internally inconsistent, contradictory nonsense even if it was true? Even if it did magically result in living forever. That's something that I see many of us express from time to time. We're at the point where even if it was true, we're entirely uninteresting in what they're selling. And what they're selling, as it were, is so largely based on false advertising that we could never very well go back to pretending it isn't. That seems to be a common thread with a lot of members here, myself not withstanding.
  21. The weird thing, from my meager studies, is that it is not clear at all what that phrase, son of God, actually means. In the Orthodox tradition, they have this idea of experiental knowledge of the dogmas, as in if ones does have some sort of personal revelation, through what they call the noetic mind, the contemplative inner core of humans, things cannot be understood. A kind of mystical insights of some sorts. But otherwise, I mean, he was fully human and fully divine, ...and all that, so what makes him any different from any other saint fully united with God? The theology is pretty wacky, if one does not have that kind of inner insight. I mean, they themselves say that these ideas, Son, Father, the nicene crede about the son being born our of the father, are, in best cases some kind of metaphors, or specific instruments for some kind of undestanding, because God is not like a human father and a human Son, and these are anthopoformisation. One of thea greatest theologians of the Eastern Church, John Damascene, explicitly says that many of the things Scripture says, like the eyes of God, the voice of God, etc, are just figures of speech. Gotta hand to them Orthodox, pretty neat thoughts sometimes. And the stories of the Desert fathers, and their sayings are just wonderful, even as just literature, if one considers them such. Sometimes I feel very conflicted. I still like many things in the Orthodox Church, especially the art, and mystical teachings. They are just beautiful, sometimes. Actually my whole view of my previous life is very conflicted. What, how, and when is true, good, what does christian even mean, really, and all that?My position is basically taking, or trying to get s step back and investigate and try not to, although it is tempting, to jump to conclusions. Yeah, I also found some respect for some parts of Buddhism. The guy or guys who made this philosophy of life were very refined individuals. It seems to me like that.
  22. Do you have the Gnostic Gospels? Early on those got me to questioning the "inerrant" new testament that was "given to us by God". Actually was begrudgingly given to us by the Catholic church in canonization of scripture, while they were burning writings and killing those who disagreed with them. How anyone can study their role in the process, and believe they were acting on gods behave, is beyond me. Maybe that will start her to thinking.
  23. I have this thing about saving books, especially old ones, and have saved my bibles and all the reference materials gathered through the years as i studied my way out of christianity, and eventually religion. It is all stored in bookshelves in the basement. HA! Have offered it to some who have asked me why I left religion, but as yet have had no takers. The bible has had such an influence on, especially the western world, that I think it contributes to the understanding of history, and mankind, and think it should be saved for future reference. I have no idea what my kids and grandkids will do with it. None of them go to church anymore. I don't think any of them, including my wife, ever took religion, and the saving of their soul as seriously as I did. Thank goodness! And have all turned out to be decent people!
  24. Go to evilbible.com. hundreds of absurdities, contradictions and offensive passages off all kinds.. the OT bible is shockingly disturbing if you aren't Jewish ...if you are, it's like " hey, He loves me and says I can have all your land money and your daughters too"
  25. GREAT CARTOON! It captures the essence of what happened.
  26. I am very thankful that when I was about 13 years old, my mother confronted a radical preacher we had for a short period of time, who was trying to convince us of some stupid idea. I remember her telling him, "well, God also gave me a brain to think with, and I don't believe you." I never forgot that statement. It gave me courage to question things.
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