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Monday, July 13, 2015

National's climate change pretence






(Hat-tip NRT)


paulinem said...

Par of the course for this govt Robert ... mind you I find it interesting how recently I was online And topic was CC and Blog was ranting how China is irresponsible re carbon use and how she was responsible for our climate problems. I went on line and made it clear the real culprit is USA in which there carbon poison of the planet is by far the biggest of all nations and has been for sometime love of fossil fuels energy and now its large fracking industry.

But on another topic re climate, what do you think of today's news in regards Scientists think we are in for another ice age ?

Armchair Critic said...

I thought all the data and reports were on Nicky Hager's computer. As all the scientists had let the government down with their big words and anti-business ideas, National could only rely on one group to help them, and the Police were only too willing to help out. Again. This proves National do care about the environment.

robertguyton said...

Pauline - "par for the course" - how apt for a golfing PM and his craven caddies. Ciaran Keogh thinks an ice age is on the cards. I don't, but either way, it was stupid to be so careless with the climate. One way or another, we are going to pay the price for our poor choices.

robertguyton said...

Hey, AC! Yes, that's right, National are not orcs after all. That rotten Nicky! I'm not surprised the police did what they did - you gotta break the law when John's against the ropes! I'm beginning to see National as, well, GODS really.

robertguyton said...

My latest letter to the editor (soon to be published - fyi)

The Government announced today (July 14) that it will spend $7.3 million on researching and trialing pasture grasses, using “ non-regulated biotechnologies, including genomic selection “.
That’s just how the swedes that last year killed hundreds of Southland dairy cows were developed, using “non-regulated biotechnologies, including genomic selection”.

They don’t know when to stop, do they?

Such methods are just a sliver away from genetic engineering and are completely unnecessary, as well as being dangerous, as the recent cow-poisonings show.
We should learn from our mistakes, not repeat them under pressure from people who seek to make money from our gullibility.

Robert Guyton

paulinem said...

Yes Robert it is a sick Govt we have spending 27 million on a referendum no one but John Keys and a few friends wants..and yeap its binding ..mean while the recent referendums we had after had approx 400,000 of the electorate signatures signed a petition in support having a referendum..Keys and co decide it was not to be binding the result !

Meanwhile while all this money been spent on the flag referendum quarter of a million of kids in NZ are living below the breadline ...we have families living in State houses that are not up to a livable standard due to the Govt refusal to spend on them to bring them up to a livable standard......

Meanwhile billions of Tax revenue is being lost due to tax evasion that could be used to fix our sick health system etc ...our Govt is well aware of this gross tax evasion but chooses to do nothing to stop it ..maybe its their friends that can well afford to pay tax !!!!

Tell me does Keys Govt have a good relationship with Indonesia... I hope not, I have just had a article sent to me on face book which told me Indonesia is responsible for deliberate genocide in West is believed they have deliberatly killed and are still killing over 800,000 West Papuans ...why the Pupuas shocking want independence from Indonesia ... what has the Indonesian got against this ..West Papua is very very rich in mineral resources etc....

Oh how did Indonesia get control after the UN had it under its wing when the Dutch left them after colonisation etc..yeap good old USA arranged this via the UN which we know US has quite an influence ... to let Indonesia take control of the West Pupua so they could take control of the rich resources of gold etc that West Pupua has

Paranormal said...

In the real world here's some facts:
Carbon dioxide is a life gas, not a poison.
We are headed to an ice age, clearly shown in the geological climate record.
Tax evasion is illegal. If you have evidence, provide it to the IRD, otherwise, yet again, you are just making shit up.

robertguyton said...

Paranormal - one of the fruitiest-loops on the net, lecturing us on "facts" - no-one, bar the "other guy" on Para's head, says CO2 is a poison. Life gas though? I'd be interested to hear Paranormal's opinions once he's spent 20 minutes breathing just CO2, his "life gas". Heading toward an ice-age, Paranormal? What a doom-sayer you are - "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!! Jeepers, Para, lighten up! What else? Tax evasion???
Back to Homepaddock, Para - it's the natural home of block-heads. You'll feel at home there :-)

paulinem said...

Paranormal it is widely known that tax evasion is rampant in NZ is estimated we are loosing billions in lost tax income ..yes the Govt is well aware of this problem ...they say tut tut etc but mouth piece concern is all we are getting to fix the problem ... A wellknown example is Sanatarium that makes millions in profit over a 100 million per annum ..yet pays NO income tax ..why loopholes in our charity laws ..they declare that sanatarium is fund rasing operative not a profit making buisness !! It was made clear on a TV3 programe ( I have forgotten what the programe was called now was a couple of years ago ) That what Sanatarium does is just the tip of a very big tax avoidance ice in NZ. Yes the Govt is aware of these tax avoidance loop holes...but like the zero contracts the export of Kauri etc ..Our Govt does nothing but surface legasitive corrections are being made to change the many growing problems we have surprise surprise with so much deliberate tax avoidance we have a run down health not enough tax money is available to pay for the increaseing health needs etc.

corokia green said...

Hey Paranormal, yeah right.One presentation by someone who "is one of a small minority of scientists who do not fully accept human activities as the greatest drivers of current climate change"

And guys- CO2 can either be a 'life gas' (if you happen to be a plant) or a poison (in that humans can't breathe it). Like most things in life, it is all about balance.

I had a look at Homepaddock, why on earth does Dave bother wasting his life there? He'll never change the mind of the regulars. I'm very pleased I stopped banging my head against a brick wall over there.

paulinem said...

At the same time corokia ..we are getting real extreme in weather these days all over the globe.... did you see the news tonight that NSW got quite a snow dump this week in an area that never gets snow !

Dunedin getting those floods after record rainfull not seen since ?? and even back in that pst time the rainful recorded was still not as severe as their recent dump .... Will we get a mini ice dump etc etc The scientific predictions is the extreme weather the globe is experiencing these days is only just beginning in short yes its quite possible .

When we dont respect our planets environmment by deliberate pollution for our own greed etc then at the end of the day the environment will rule the day. The pollution occuring in recent times has affected the Artic and Antartic circle.

That is a fact the evidence produced is clear and unequivical that the these areas of the environment is damaged...The scary reality is the globes weather patterns begin in these circles ... the current which carries the globes weather patterns which begins from the artic and antartic circles takes FORTY years to circulate the planet in brief any attempts to repair the damage by humans to the planet environement will not take global effect for years ..thus get use to extreme weather patterns which yes could even see a mini ice age !!

robertguyton said...

The sun-spots will doubtless come, but in my view won't over-ride the warming we have set in motion, by any appreciable degree. We're over-heating the atmosphere, making it tempestuous and un-predictable and will suffer the consequences. Paranormal is ossified in his dislike for the Labour Party and the Left-wing in general and cannot recognise the truths that sit amongst the dross that every political party consists of. He insists on repeating trite expressions such as Gorebull warming, Liarbour etc, as if he's somehow scoring points by doing so. It reveals a paucity of imagination and a lack of depth of expression, but he persists nevertheless. As for Dave on the Homepaddock, corokia, I just can't fathom his continued presence there. He is regularly abused, no matter what he has said and no discernible progress is made with any topic. It irks me that he keeps the place alive by visiting - t'd be a ghost-town without him. Ludmann banned me and that was a blessing in disguise. I'd been reducing my commenting there, but was enjoying inflaming the sad souls who haunt the site, something in retrospect I'm not so proud of. Mr E, in particular, is a disturbed fellow. His passive/aggressive abusive monologue is a study in subtle nastiness, where Gravedodger's at least is lusty and overt. I sympathise with GD though, gout's a terribly discomforting condition, I'm told and often produces irascibility and bad temper. As someone who likes to play with words and (in the past) enjoyed frustrating the shallow-thinking Right-wing, I suppose I miss those sorts of puerile "battles". However, as a now-mature commenter, I see exactly why you express pleasure in no longer rolling around in the dung that litters the Homepaddock :-)

paulinem said...

Yeah Robert the right seems to have loss any sence of hummanity in the desire for greed money etc. Only today I read on some forum that our minister of Health has suggested cutting the caregiving allowance for those looking after Dementia patients. Yes like you I am sick of the mouth piece BS concern in regards our govt to problems such as Zero contracts etc, when in reality they plan to do nothing at all about the problem. This BS regard Phil Twiford as been zenophobic in regards overseas ownership of Auckland homes. To me says it all. I wrote a letter to the paper some moths ago re absentie ownership in the late 19th century of NZ land etc .. The reality this onwnership bought NZ to near bankruptcy and it was a NZ govt the Liberals that interferred and encouraged these owners with heavy taxation to sell up... thus allowing provinces like Southand to came to prosperity as many settlers like my dad brought the land from these owners and with hard work etc turned Southlands land into productive land. I strongly suspect Bill Englishs family was also one of the settler families that took advantage of the liberal Govts interence and gained ownership of land in Dipton that would not have been available otherwise.Interesting also I heard English slag off ( at a dinner I went too and discovered he was the guest speaker after I got there:( )Joseph Ward for scaming and ripping off the taxpayers while in power ( Ward a prominent Southalnder was the Liberal Govt deputy leader) thoughts were how hypocritical Bill re his double dipping etc..

Any way back to environment climate change etc ...I am not sure what is going to happen the only thing we have been told will happen is extreme weather patterns ...yes its warmer some places especially the Northern Hemsiphere etc ..yes the increase warmth plus cutting the rain forest is possibly the reason for the refugees in Africa etc as their land once productive is now a barren wasteland. But I wonder maybe the other extreme is happening in the winter months.... I was shocked at yester days news of heavy snowfull in NSW ..this area is near the maybe there is a possibilty of a mini iceage on the horizon ...the only thing we do know about climate change the environment/weather is in charge and it will behave as it decides too...even scientist etc are unsure and can only predict what might happen etc.. Its the extreme patterns that we need to worry about..and the reality what we do now to stop the pollution in the atmosphere will benifit not us but most likely our Grandchildren children

Re unpredictable problems in weather reminds me of my reaction to earthquake paranoia after Christchurch and the panic re earthquake problem buildings etc ... I was annoyed re Invecargill panic as because of our vacinity to the fault line in the Southern Alps ..we and Dunedin are considered by environmentalist as been low risk ie a good distant away from the fault line. I said to Ross my Enviro tutor as to why people like him didnt speak out that the panic re high risk earth quake buidings was stupid re our low risk in Ingill...what he said in reply was sobering ..Because Pauline we have no idea what is under Ingill ground there could be a fault line we are unaware off which if errupted would put this town at high risk disastour like Christchurch !!

robertguyton said...

"I am not sure what is going to happen" You and the rest of humanity, Pauline. We have to make the best, most intelligent decisions though, based on what we do know. The whole head-in-the-sand thing doesn't appeal to me at all. National are not only doing that, they're pretending to be taking actiion, where in fact their heads are shoulders-deep.

paulinem said...

one positive way to look at our political sitution is the Govt has two more years before another election ..within two years a Govt MP or even Peter Dunne may have to give up their seat for health etc reasons ..... re byelection .... If Keys looses two more seats etc ...then its good bye Keys Govt :) :) ..and I doubt they will ever return to power for along time as people memories can be long :))

robertguyton said...

That's how it's going to be, Pauline. Buy your "Key-friendly" copy of Woman's Day now,it'll be the last one they ever do.

corokia green said...

"I am not sure what is going to happen the only thing we have been told will happen is extreme weather patterns ."- so you've missed the bits about ocean acidification and sea level rise Pauline.

I don't share your confidence that National will be gone next election. I hope to see the back of the current crop of Nats, but I think the environmental problems the world has (ever expanding growth in a finite world, pollution and climate change & ocean acidification) are so deep that a change of political parties won't do much to fix them.

As for Southland land, the "absentie owners" of the 19th century cheated the tangata whenua out of the land, so your dad and the English family were living off stolen property in case you didn't realise.

Robert, it looks like Dave is the only left winger keeping the conversation going over at HP, surely he has something better to do with his time. It amazes me how these people comment all through out the day, maybe they are all retired (though TraceyS claimed to be running a business- I run my own business and it sure as hell doesn't leave me many spare minutes Monday to Friday)

There are a few reasons I don't comment much anywhere these days. The main one is that 20 minutes spent writing a reply to some RWNJ (or some other selfish shit or uneducated moron) is a waste of 20 minutes that I could spend with a human being I actually care about and respect, or 20 minutes reading a good book, or even folding the washing. Oops, getting a bit grumpy here.

On a more positive note, tomorrow is 4 weeks since the shortest day, I've got snowdrops and 1 daffodil.I'd like to get the rest of the garlic in tomorrow. We are eating brocolli, carrots, silverbeet and kale from the garden. Feeding tagasatre to the sheep. Had a bonfire last Sunday from the forage willow branches we fed to the sheep in autumn. Always enjoy your columns in NZ Gardener and I hope you are savouring the time you spend with that gorgeous grandchild, way better for the soul than scoring points online.

robertguyton said...

Snowdrops! Magical flowers. My tagasaste is so shallow-rooted it keeps toppling over, don't know why it's that way. I'll prune harder and make 'em shrubbier next year. You are so right about trading commenting for personal interactions with real humans, especially those you love. Robyn's 1000x happier about it, as Dave's wife would be, were he to arrest his slide into madness :-) Bonfire! I'm planning one for next weekend, along with some wassailing.

Paranormal said...

And you guys call me a fruitloop? Have you even stopped to look at your doom laden comments?

As for reasoned debate I suppose I was expecting too much from you RG.

Anyway, you're wrong on CO2. Humans need it as it is one of the triggers of our respiration:

CK you are making assumptions. I'm not talking about any mini ice age drama, but the real thing.

Paulinem, tax evasion is illegal. What Sanitarium are doing is legal so can't be tax evasion. What you want as a big government tax & spend authoritarian type would like to see is irrelevant until you get on the treasury benches.

Based on the lefts current state there's no way they'll usurp the Nats in 2017. If you want any sort of hope you have to start voters thinking you're a government in waiting. And that's just not happening.

robertguyton said...

Paranormal - you're predicting an ice age???
Talk about a Chicken-Little! You're doom on toast!
I guess it's your religion now, predicting the Frozen End for Mankind. And there you were, pretending to be rational. You're no better than the guy with the placard, "The End is Nigh!"
The nats won't be "usurped" by the Left in 2017. They'll have rotted from the inside out by then. Corruption has a habit of felling it's host from within in a spectacular, hard-to-detect-initially manner.
Can't wait for the final disintegration. The signs of internal rot are all there (Oravida, Name-suppression, Saudi sheep, kauri logs, Slater's hacking, ponytail-pulling etc. etc. etc.)

Armchair Critic said...

Brilliant stuff paranormal. An ice age is coming and it'll be the real thing. Sun spots will save us from all that carbon dioxide. Of course, how is it that no oil company has funded some research into this matter yet? It seems like an ideal opportunity for them.
And it's a life gas - we can't live without it in our lungs so we definitely should be putting much more into the atmosphere. Wouldn't it be great if we pumped in so much life gas that we all just did one final great exhale and....wait. No, that doesn't make sense either. I bow to you superior skills in the art of parody, paranormal.

Paranormal said...

You'll need to wait a bit longer than 2017 RG. For corruption to fell the nats it still requires there to be an opposition the voters see as worthy of being government, or at least better than the incumbent. The nats may continue to be, in your eyes anyway, corrupt, but the voters still see them as preferable to your lot. Does that grate?

AC interesting how you go all extreme when I point out that CO2 is not a poison as Paulinem thinks. How many parts per million of the air we breath is CO2 again? So you don't feel in the slightest bit Quixotic with all your tilting at windmills?

paulinem said...

Maybe Paranormal its time for a totally new party to arise that will rescue this country from our present Government...

After all now in 2015 NZs situation is very very similar to what we were in the late 1890s ..where the Reform governance under Massey was as corrupt and not interested in the average kiwi as Keys Govt is showing ..back then overseas ownership ( whom were only interested in profit with no expenses and land banking of our land for the future ) and we also had serious rabbit environment problems was putting this country into close to bankruptcy..again in 2015 we have a corrupt taxation system which looks after Nationals friends and we owe 85 billion in debt ..and a TPPA agreement on the horizon which will effectively hand over NZ sovereignty to corporate US.

Back in the late 1890s a totally new political party came to power ..and whow did it instigate reforms that set this country into the future prosperity first they got rid of the corruption and then encouraged overseas owners to sell up and hand it over to the average battler who with hard work made NZ and Southland etc prosperous, etc .....

Corkia get your facts right mate ...first its my understanding what Maoris who were down here in the late 1800s were coastal Maoris there were not many here (as I understand) in the early 1880s as I guess they generally found it too cold to live here full time.

They I understand survived by fishing etc and had more association with the whalers and sealers that came to this area than the land people..the land down here was VIRGIN land ie no man land pure natural with NO Ownership no one had been on it etc..... with battlers like my dad coming to this area and a lot of very hard work clearing the tussock etc thus making it now productive ..such industries as freezing industries opened and A LOT of men with MAORI decent made a very good living from working in these industries ..making it possible to provide a good life for their families etc..far better than they would have if we had left the land virgin and they had to live of their wits !!...

robertguyton said...

Para - you're such a chump! Your ethics though, are sub-chump, if you believe the only valid measure of corruption is whether the majority of people can see it or not. Very sad way to view the world. Me, I regard lying and deceiving by government as a reason for immediate termination. I'm not like you, willing to turn a blind eye til the clamour from the great unwashed gets so loud you can't ignore it. If individuals are corrupt, deceiitful, duplicitous (listening, Mr Key?) then I believe they should be relieved of their posts immediately. Does it grate that there are people like you who believe that it's okay to deceive the people you are meant to represent and care for? No. I see it a lot and it doesn't surprise me as I understand why it happens. Will I change and become like them and you?

robertguyton said...

"In the real world here's some facts:
Carbon dioxide is a life gas, not a poison." - Paranormal

What does Wikipedia have to say about the meaning on "poison"?
"In biology, poisons are substances that cause disturbances to organisms, usually by chemical reaction or other activity on the molecular scale, when a sufficient quantity is absorbed by an organism."
So, Carbon dioxide, according to Paranormal who claimed that CO2 is "not a poison", the gas doesn't "disturbances to organisms, usually by chemical reaction or other activity on the molecular scale, when a sufficient quantity is absorbed by an organism."
Goodness? a "sufficient quantity" of CO2 WON'T "cause disturbances to organisms"????
Cripes, Paranormal. The organism that is you seems to operate outside of the normal parameters of science! You can breath pure CO2 and NOT be disturbed???
Otoh, the disturbed nature of many of your comments indicates that you should open the windows of your hidey-hole more often - let the oxygen course through your veins, clear that toxic gas from your organs!

robertguyton said...

Murihiku was virgin land, Pauline?
I don't think so.
Do you know ahi kaa
It's an interesting practice.
I'm not criticising your forebears at all, just questioning your claim about land-use.

paulinem said...

Robert I am no expert as to our history, but as I understand it what humans were here say pre 1840 ( the treaty and thus the beginning of when more humans came from other parts of the globe )
Ie pre 1840 it was my understanding those humans that were here settled mostly near the coast. Most of Southland land was not farmed ...not even touched ..maybe was used as traveling ... to walk ride or a horse through but little else ... It was to my understanding ...there simply wasnt many humans around pre 1840 to instigate farming etc ...... thus by the early 20th century when the land opened to to the everyday settler they had to break the land from its natural virgin growth into grassland.... even then it wasn't easy my grandfather whom had land west of Dipton was constantly flooded by the Oreti ?? River..and sadly wasn't able to stay long on this land as point was to Corkia is that I find his attitude insulting as if it wasn't for these pioneers on our land we would have none of the opportunities and goodies of today etc if it wasn't for their tenacity and determination .... and this as I pointed gave the opportunity to provide opportunities to their families etc too many including those of Maori decent whom he suggested were cheated by people like my father. Corkia would do well to consider what life in Southland would have been like for all of us if these settlers didn't get the opportunity to farm this land !

er ahi kaa never heard of it

robertguyton said...

I read, over at the dung-besplattered "Homepaddock", that Paranormal has called my mild , meek and ever-so polite BIL, Dave, "evil personified"! Evil! Dave???
To much CO2 , Paranormal - what did I tell you!?!

robertguyton said...

Pauline - now you're opening up a can of worms:-) What would Southland be like if it hadn't been farmed? Can't turn back time though, can we, but imagine...
What, indeed, would the world be like if we humans hadn't farmed it?
Healthy? Intact? Biologically diverse? Abundant? Natural?
Farming/agriculture - it's a hell of a topic. I'd love to sit on a 'panel' to discuss agriculture and alternatives to it. That would be quite a discussion. Run for weeks, it would!

robertguyton said...

Ahi kaa - Maori Dictionary definition:

1. (noun) burning fires of occupation, continuous occupation - title to land through occupation by a group, generally over a long period of time. The group is able, through the use of whakapapa, to trace back to primary ancestors who lived on the land. They held influence over the land through their military strength and defended successfully against challenges, thereby keeping their fires burning. See also ahikāroa, ahikā, ahi-kā-roa
Ministry of Justice website:
The doctrine of ahi ka established an individual s and the tribes right to land. Ahi ka means keeping the home fires burning and it required the whanau or hapu to maintain the ability to control and exercise mana over the land (mana whenua) through continued occupation or use. Traditionally, the occupying iwi or hapu had to maintain control of the land for three generations. Abandoning the land, thus allowing the fire to die, weakened the validity of a claim to the land.

Paranormal said...

RG, you're having yet another logic failure. By your convoluted and disingenuous reasoning pure H2O is a poison as well.

Paranormal said...

Perhaps you might all put ideology aside for a moment and see if you can look objectively at this thread.

RG could it be your crazed rantings are similar to what you accuse me of?

Why is it this thread has the appearance of what you despise over at Homepaddock?