#instantbird log on 01 16 2010

All times are UTC.

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10:25:21 <Mic> hi
10:32:08 <Mic> When 0.2 is out and the screenshots are updated, we could format that page differently
10:32:40 <Mic> Thumbnails with a short description would be a good idea in my opinion (cf Sunbird screenshot page: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/sunbird/screenshot.html )
10:39:59 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 296 filed by raynaudquentin@gmail.com.
10:40:01 <instantbot> Bug 296 was not found.
10:40:11 <Even> Yeah !
10:40:24 <Even> THe new bugzilla is working :)
10:40:33 <Mic> :)
10:40:46 <Even> instantbot did not found the bug because it looked on the old bugzilla a bug created on the new one :)
10:40:48 <instantbot> Even: Sorry, I've no idea what 'did not found the bug because it looked on the old bugzilla a bug created on the new one :)' might be.
10:40:55 <Even> LOL
10:41:08 <Even> instantbot: you're dumb
10:41:09 <instantbot> Even: no, *you* suck!
10:41:14 <Even> uhuh
10:42:38 <Even> The bug 296 ask for the Ctrl + Shift + A shortcut (that opens the account maanger) to work when done on a conversation windows on Windows and Linux platform too and not only on Macs.
10:42:50 <Even> I have to do the bot's job now...
10:42:52 <Even> Pff :P
10:46:21 <Even> So, right now, on the new server: jails are working, mails too (that was quite a job :P)
10:46:32 <Even> I have SSL on ONE website.
10:47:09 <Even> Now the next step is to have SSL on more that one in a "not too dirty" way (since there is probably no good solution for this).
11:04:57 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 289 to FIXED.
11:06:43 <flo> Mic: (about the screenshots) yes. We need to do better with the website for 0.2 :)
11:08:17 <Troy> Maybe you can remove old XP screenshots and replace it to 7?
11:13:49 <Troy> flo: Because Instantbird looks better on Windows 7 than on XP.
11:15:29 <Mic> flo: screenshots are usually one of the first things I look at when thinking about getting a certain piece of software
11:16:15 <Mic> It's a sort of "dry run" - do the features I'm looking for appear on the UI, are they accessible in a way I like .. 
11:24:08 <Mic> flo: will the context menu options for buddies be available on tabs as well?
11:24:09 <Troy> flo:
11:56:45 <flo> Mic: which options?
11:57:24 <Mic> "Set alias" for example ..
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12:05:07 <flo> Mic: (about the screenshots) I think we will stop displaying a set of screenshot as a galery of images, and instead we will showcase some features that we think are interesting, and we will use screenshot to illustrate
12:05:22 <flo> so that the user associate the feature with the UI for it
12:06:03 <flo> Troy: I think we will want to have a set of screenshots for each OS, and have the website select automatically the screenshots that correspond to the OS the visitor is using.
12:06:44 <Mic> flo: ie leading the user to the right set by default?
12:07:23 <flo> Mic: (about the alias) I don't feel like making the tab titles editable, so "Set alias" won't be in tab context menus. However, as soon as we have a bar at the top of conversations displaying info about the contact, we can (and will) make the alias editable from there. So it will be editable from conversations too.
12:08:08 <flo> Mic: yes :)
12:08:24 <Mic> (I meant: guide them to the right screenshots, but don't tell him which to see and which not)
12:09:17 <Mic> flo: for me the tab is just a buddy with an attached conversation .. that's why I thought it should have the same options as a buddy has
12:09:55 <flo> we will probably de-emphasis the "multi-platform" aspect of the projet on the front page, because unlike developers, most users don't care (or don't even know what it means).
12:09:57 <Mic> (and that's why I suggested dragging&dropping buddies from list to conversation window thing one day)
12:12:04 <flo> so, when they will click on "features", they will have a list of features, illustrated with screenshots that "feel right" because they are for the OS they use. Maybe somewhere on the page there will be a link to change the screenshots to the version of another OS, but it's not all that important
12:14:06 <Mic> So you don't want to have screenshots of whole windows? 
12:14:31 <Mic> I think that's part to get the look&feel of a program
12:15:33 <flo> if that's important, then it's a feature ;)
12:15:51 <Mic> hehe
12:17:05 <flo> "windows can contain several conversations at once with our nice tab system..." <screenshot or a window with several conversations> "... or be very small so that you can keep real estate on your screen to concentrate on something else at the same time "  <screenshot of the smallest possible conversation window>
12:19:05 <flo> hmm, I need to renew instantbird.eu
12:19:25 <flo> apparently we've never done anything useful with that domain :-/
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12:21:55 <flo> bugzilla.instantbird.org will point to the new server... once the DNS propagation is finished (can take 8 hours :()
12:25:08 <Troy> by the way, flo? where new builds for Windows?
12:25:22 <flo> all nightly failed this night :(
12:25:38 <flo> because of an unfortunate code change on the mozilla side
12:26:08 <flo> ok, I own instantbird.eu for another year :)
12:26:27 <Even> Another useless year for this one :)
12:26:44 <flo> why?
12:27:11 <flo> I think before the 0.2 release I'll make sure all the "useless" instantbird.<something> domains I own redirect to instantbird.com
12:27:31 <Even> That don't mean someone will actually use them :P
12:28:03 <flo> it's still better than having it used by a squatter and adding google ads promoting Digsby...
12:28:05 <Even> And I think we really should find a use of our .im domain name.
12:28:09 <Even> It's so coool :P
12:28:23 <flo> like setup an XMPP server and give away accounts?
12:28:36 <Even> That would be nice :)
12:28:43 <Even> But I'm not sure the CB2 can handle the job.
12:28:56 <Even> It's already full on a CPU point of view.
12:29:24 <Even> There's going to be something like 40 apache process on it in a few time. That's more than enough for the VIA 1Ghz proc.
12:29:28 <flo> bah... we need money to get a bunch of other servers :)
12:29:44 <Even> Yes, I think you have the idea.
12:29:52 <Even> But when the money is there, I'll look into that.
12:29:58 <flo> so... we can't use instantbird.im :-P
12:30:07 <Even> I'll love to have an eventreur@instantbird.im address :D
12:30:23 <Even> At least, not soon.
12:30:43 <Even> But we can make some test about that though and start a private server.
12:30:47 <Even> For the team.
12:30:48 <Troy> flo, now Windows builds on the FTP-server will be placed in the formats .exe and .zip?
12:31:04 <Even> And some priviledge people (who said testers ?).
12:31:12 <Even> That might be nice.
12:31:17 <flo> Even, you know I've an XMPP account on florian@instantbird.fr, right?
12:31:40 <Even> Yeah I've heard of it. That don't make it easy to use :P
12:31:56 <Even> Better to have a good DNS SRV request that gives the correct server :etc.
12:32:06 <Even> I would see in a good light the testing server idea tough.
12:32:06 <flo> uh?
12:32:27 <Even> It might be a good way to start working on our idea of storing some info remotely using an XMPP server side extension to the protocol.
12:32:42 <flo> bah, we can have a test server on ib2.univ-lille1.fr, that's a crap enough domain name that nobody will ever want to use that for real :l)
12:32:57 <Even> Well, even if it is on instantbird.im...
12:33:06 <Even> If we're not releasing accounts it's not a problem.
12:33:21 <flo> Troy: not now, but in the future, maybe. Even, what do you think?
12:33:56 <Even> I think it's going to happen somewhere between b2 and rc1.
12:34:03 <flo> Even: is it useful/how much work is it to make buildbot upload both the zip archive and the installer?
12:34:03 <Even> Can't really put a date on it though :)
12:34:31 <Troy> b3?
12:34:33 <Even> Well, it is a nice bit of work to allow this to be done.
12:34:40 <Even> No, rc1.
12:34:47 <Even> There's no b3 planned.
12:34:59 <Even> Or I'm not aware of it :)
12:35:28 <flo> I fear nothing (in terms of milestones and release dates) is actually planned :(
12:35:54 <Even> I have quite a bit of tweaking to do on the bb thing to do that but depending on how it goes, it might only take a few hours... To a few days :P
12:36:10 <flo> if we want the last beta to be feature-complete, it may make sense to add a b3, and release b2 relatively soon
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12:36:39 <Even> I think there is no real good reason to postpone rc1 more.
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12:37:03 <Even> Better released now with what we have (considering the b2 as a feature complete thing) anbd have a 2.1 after that.
12:37:14 <Even> There is only small stuff to add so...
12:37:29 <flo> honestly, I don't know
12:37:40 <Even> Yeah, I know it's a hard decision to make.
12:37:52 <flo> since beta1, we added the log viewer and aliases (not yet ready)
12:37:59 <Even> But you should know that we honestly can't continue more with such a crapy official release...
12:37:59 <flo> and the installer now works
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12:38:08 <Even> People using them are still one the !
12:38:27 <flo> :(
12:38:32 <Even> And a lot of small improvments.
12:38:55 <Even> Y'know, I'm the first one hurted by not having the account details on the buddy list status bar for 0.2.
12:39:09 <flo> in the near future, I'll also make sure we can display offline buddies in the buddy list. Mostlikely add a way to move/remove buddies.
12:39:18 <Even> I don't think it's a good idea to postpone more for that though. There is no real key feature planned right now that justify delaying more.
12:39:25 <Even> And I really do want file transfer too...
12:39:34 <wareczek> hello guys :) I send you request for Polish translation team. What about that?
12:39:39 <Even> All that wan wait 2.* release.
12:39:44 <Troy> It may be time for you to create a more or less stable branch ib-0.2 and make the experimental branch (Trunk?)
12:39:49 <Even> Well, I saw that indeed.
12:39:50 <flo> Even: the feature I'm thinking about that may be worth a b3 is status handling
12:40:03 <Even> It is worth it...
12:40:18 <flo> wareczek: Hi! I'm really sorry I haven't replied yet.
12:40:20 <Even> But that still delays more a long awaited release...
12:40:35 <Even> wareczek: same here... nice initiative
12:40:43 <flo> we had server issues at the moment when you sent your email so it wasn't possible to provide what you need to start translating at that moment.
12:40:56 <flo> the server issues are now resolved :)
12:41:35 <Even> Well, at least they looks like resolved though there is still a huge list of things to do to close the subject :P
12:42:13 <flo> wareczek: have you read http://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Translation ?
12:42:28 <Mic> flo: maybe you should compare with the current state to see whether it is worth releasing it
12:42:29 <Troy> Even: Which OS are you using?
12:42:32 <wareczek> flo: yes
12:42:59 <Mic> I think it is .. even though some more things would be nice to have, it would be a great improvement to have an official release with the current features
12:43:26 <Even> Troy: wel, as a matter of fact, Linux and Windows mainly.
12:43:41 <Even> Though lately I added a bit of mac too (very reluctantly :P)
12:44:05 <Even> Troy: why that ?
12:44:20 <Even> Mic: yes, that is my point too
12:44:33 <Troy> You can help me with Hg?
12:44:35 <Even> Mic: I really think it's time to release even if a lot of features are worth a b3
12:44:35 <flo> Even: because he wants you to argue with me for more Seven support ;)
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12:44:48 <Even> Troy: yes sure
12:45:00 <Even> flo: well, he has a point, it would be nice :)
12:47:26 <Troy> I have TortoiseHg
12:48:26 <flo> wareczek: ok, so I need to create a "pl" hg repository for you :)
12:48:29 <Troy> But I do not understand how I download the source code Instantbird and how to compile them.
12:48:32 <flo> I'll try to get to it this week-end :)
12:48:59 <wareczek> ok, please email me when it will be done :)
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12:50:20 <Troy> Even
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12:51:13 <Even> Troy: well, what version of mercurial did you download ?
12:51:24 <Troy> last
12:51:36 <Even> There is a pretty complete tutorial on tortoisehg on the wiki but you might prefer the command line tool...
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12:52:40 <Even> That depends on your skill and confidence. The command line tool is more flexible and makes things quicker when masterised but tortoisehg has an UI and makes things easier by adding items in the contextual menus of your exporer.
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12:53:29 <Even> So first, you should choose what version of mercurial you want to use, if you think about using tortoisehg, just look on the wiki, otherwise at least isntall the tools and then try to read some tutorials about how the command line thing is working.
12:53:37 <Even> Then if you have specific questions I'll be happy to answer.
12:53:44 <Even> But I won't explain everything from scratch.
12:58:25 <flo> so, let's look at the things that are still possible for 0.2:
12:58:51 <flo> - systray icon on Windows and Linux (we may postpone that to a later release, given the existence of the minimize to tray addon for windows)
12:58:56 <flo> - pastebin integration
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12:59:42 <flo> - status handling (design the top of the buddy list window to handle status, personal message, buddy icon, ...; make the status visible at the top of conversation areas)
13:00:09 <flo> - a couple of improvements of the buddy list (alias/move/remove)
13:00:17 <Even> You're tempting... really :)
13:00:21 <flo> - a set of decent message themes by default
13:00:27 <Even> - file transfer
13:00:46 <flo> - do something to the performance issue of the nicklist (we can delay that to a 0.2.* release)
13:00:56 <flo> - the account status bar in the buddy list
13:00:57 <Even> - the account status in the status bar of the buddy list
13:00:59 <Even> lol
13:01:00 <Even> :P
13:01:04 <flo> and I think that's all I have.
13:01:30 <Even> - mail notification using the new account status bar
13:01:32 <flo> Even: no about the file transfer, except if someone else works on it!
13:01:48 <Even> well, I thought that it was the same for the avvount status bar
13:01:52 <Even> and for the perf thing
13:02:05 <Even> and for the move / remove for buddies
13:02:31 <flo> but not "alias"? :-D
13:02:43 <Even> Nope. you never told me it was another's job this part :)
13:03:11 <flo> file transfer handling is *a lot* of work.
13:03:25 <Even> That's sad.
13:03:28 <flo> for a result that is guaranteed to be (very) disappointing.
13:04:06 <Even> Well, that's another question. Sometimes it's better to have nothing that something. In other cases the reverse is true.
13:04:14 <Even> In this specific situation, I'm not sure at all.
13:04:38 <flo> what have we announced on the roadmap about that?
13:04:46 <Even> The pidgin thing is indeed very disapointing but people still prefer that than our nothing... But we still risk our necks with people saying it's not working...
13:04:53 <Even> Well, don't know :)
13:04:57 <flo> http://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Roadmap#0.2
13:05:18 <Even> 0.3
13:05:22 <Even> Ils seems.
13:05:33 <flo> do complete what we stated for 0.2, we still need the systray icon, and the status handling
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13:05:59 <Even> Well, the roadmap is pretty well followed :)
13:06:05 <flo> I'm a bit sad about postponing the sound themes. But I don't think we should wait for it
13:06:15 <Even> We already have some 0.3+ features ^^
13:06:33 <flo> 0.3 looks exciting
13:06:41 <flo> where can I download it? :)
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13:06:57 <Even> That's so true.
13:07:09 <Even> I'll also love 0.4 :)
13:07:18 <flo> hey, "#  fix alias " is in 0.3!
13:07:24 <Even> yes
13:07:40 <Even> and log viewer in 0.4
13:08:05 <Even> Well, our log viewer is not really something I like to mention... But still :P
13:08:23 <flo> hrm. For 0.4 we want a real log viewer
13:08:36 <Even> Well, as a matter of fact, yes.
13:08:39 <flo> not a "little something" going through directories of text files
13:08:41 <Even> Maybe sooner :D
13:09:03 <Troy> Global Planning?
13:09:06 <Even> Hope 0.2 will bring us new motivated people :)
13:09:20 * Troy is now known as Troy_Away
13:09:20 <Even> Troy: well, yes. We have to sometimes.
13:09:49 <flo> I'll probably soon have 2 students working on a graphical visualization of IM events.
13:09:58 <Even> Troy: and it is exciting to see the job going through. How to put it ? Slowly but surely maybe ?
13:10:50 <flo> Even: maybe every month we should give the very first 0.1 release a try, just so that we can see how much it has evolved :)
13:10:51 <Even> flo: probably not going to give anything useful out of this
13:11:02 <Even> flo: I like the idea :P
13:11:07 <Mic> flo: what is the 'graphical visualization'?
13:11:39 <Even> flo: and we won't need long to see that, starting the 0.1 and having it running more than 10 minutes was a miracle :D
13:11:39 <flo> Mic: that's a research project, so a lot remains to be decided/experimented
13:11:57 <Mic> ok
13:12:06 <flo> Even: that's also true for 0.1.2 and 0.1.3 is you use both MSN and QQ ;)
13:12:08 <Even> Mic: don't ask. It's going to be a lot of work and a lot of nothing
13:12:12 <Mic> Even: I'll try to get some work done on the accounts access bar
13:12:18 <Mic> Even: that's how research works
13:12:21 <flo> Even: uh? Why are you so negative about it?
13:12:26 <Mic> "A lot of paper going to the trash bin"
13:12:31 <Even> flo: because I've been a student :P
13:12:58 <flo> Mic: so let me try to explain the idea
13:13:15 <flo> they will have a set of variables with different values, and of event
13:13:19 <Even> flo: you never do seomthing right if you didn't choosed to do it by yourself... And worst is when there is a grade on the work at the end. That's not the kind of motivation that gets the best of people.
13:13:20 <flo> a window with an HTML canvas
13:13:33 <flo> and their work is to find something useful/interesting to do with that
13:13:45 <flo> most likely they will end up with a chronological view of the data
13:13:49 <Mic> Even: I've done the basic XUL thing (couldn't use nromal menus but had to move on to using panels)
13:14:03 <Mic> and some of the background stuff from the old version
13:14:09 <flo> Mic: why didn't the menu work?
13:14:29 <Mic> Panels support putting other elements on it .. menus show them, but they aren't usuable there
13:14:30 <flo> I need to find which variables/events are of interest
13:14:34 <Even> Mic: great
13:14:51 <Even> Mic: if you're working hard enough, might pass in time for b2 though I doubt it.
13:14:53 <flo> currently I have "status" (with different values), "is involved in a conversation with me"
13:14:57 <flo> and I'd like to find more
13:15:06 <Mic> Even though you can show a button or icon on a menu, it wouldn't react to onlicks and such
13:15:08 <Even> Mic: well, at least if you work well, we're not going to let that feature miss 0.2 :D
13:15:27 <flo> Mic: I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to do
13:15:53 <flo> why do you need anything but menuitems in that menu?
13:15:55 <Even> flo: I think he is talking about the account status bar :)
13:16:23 <Mic> I'm talking about the bar and will catch up on your talk later
13:16:37 <Mic> sorry, I didn't follow your discussion at all so far
13:17:01 <Even> Mic: I think in fact flo undesrtand what you're doing and is more wondering about your methodology
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13:17:30 <Even> Mic: why menus and menuitmes were not good ?
13:17:35 <Mic> https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Account_quickaccess7.png
13:17:45 <Mic> That's a screenshot, not a mockup
13:18:08 <Even> That looks great already :)
13:18:18 <Mic> The possible actions for accounts are the lines displayed below the name
13:18:49 <Mic> and therefore need to be able to be accessible directly
13:19:20 <Mic> (sry, gtg. I'll be back in a few minutes)
13:25:36 <Even> Mic: well, after looking at your screenshot, I have only one thing to say. We don't want to have per account statuses in Ib. The status will be general and linked to the user so the line indicating that you're away in the list should not be there.
13:26:35 <Even> Mic: about the arrow and cross to connect / disconnect. I like it but you'll have to concince flo it rocks. I'm totally with you, at least if he has nothing bette to propose.
13:41:09 <Mic> flo just wants a display of the status and no actions?
13:41:41 * flo is arguing with Even ;)
13:42:04 <Even> Mic: yes, so it is, we are having a very interessant conversation on the subject right now :P
13:42:24 <Even> Mic: it is hard to know who is right, we both have good pros for our point of views
13:42:29 <Mic> I guess it's about "we don't want users opening the menu several times when he could use the account manager instead"?
13:42:38 <Even> Mic: not at all
13:42:57 <flo> Even: nobody is right or wrong. We are brainstorming.
13:42:57 <Mic> ok .. I think we (flo) discussed about this once
13:44:34 <Even> Mic: it is mainly about what we want this feature targeted for
13:44:58 <flo> we are mainly talking about privacy issues
13:45:08 <Even> Mic: is it mainly informations or not ? Do we prefer per accounts managment or global managment of all account ? Is there a real motivation to manage accounts one by one.
13:45:45 <Even> Mic: in fact, the real thing has become, is it the correct way, when you want to separate people, to give them different addresses on different IM accounts or should it be done differently?
13:46:12 <Even> Mic: I'm wondering, even if WE believe it's not the correct way to do it if we can convince people that are already widely using this method to change their ways.
13:47:45 <Mic> You want to treat several buddies as one contact sooner or later
13:48:54 <Mic> Instead of "global managment of all account" I would suggest to do something similiar for the local user then
13:49:09 <Even> Yep but it's more action on groups tehre.
13:49:27 <Mic> So you attach accounts to a profile (e.g. Home, Work, ..) and can use global actions on these profiles instead of all at once
13:49:32 <Even> "I don't want to talk to all those guys there that I met on Internet and that I don't know."
13:49:43 <flo> Basically, we want to make sure that the user does not get confused between his status (what's on his mind, what he wants to do, ...) and the status of instantbird (which accounts are successfully connected and usable)
13:49:53 <Even> And later "Now I have time for them, let's allow them to see me and talk to me."
13:51:21 <Mic> With the thing I suggest that could be done using something like setting the "Work" profile to "Available" and the "Fun/Freetime" to "Do Not Disturb" ?
13:51:36 <Mic> Do you get the idea?
13:51:56 <Mic> Or is it different from what you intend
13:52:21 <Mic> There could be these profile groups on the access bar instead of grouping by protocols
13:54:01 <flo> I think Kopete has a way to handle several identities
13:54:04 <Even> We are sure of one thing, there will be no such thing as per accounts statuses.
13:54:36 <Even> That might be the purpose of an addon though. But it's not something we want in Ib.
13:54:43 <Even> (as a default)
13:54:49 <flo> well, what we are actually discussion is "is there a good reason for a user to want to do per-account actions frequently?". I tend to think the answer is no.
13:55:14 <flo> so the next question is, "why do users think they want/need to do that?"
13:55:34 <flo> it appears that usually, it's because they use different accounts to communicate with different sets of people
14:00:07 <Even> flo: it's a good resumÃ© ^^
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14:02:13 <Mic> but I think that's a good reason why treating all accounts at once is not a good idea?
14:03:03 <flo> Mic: I suggest you split your work in several small steps/patches, so that we can get in quickly the parts on which we agree and that are small.
14:03:33 <flo> I would start by a patch that displays the state of accounts in the status bar without adding any tooltip/menu/panel.
14:03:47 <flo> it would already be a great improvement compared to the empty status bar we have now
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14:04:19 <Mic> could you do a quick sketch or description what you intend it to look like?
14:04:58 <Mic> protocol icons + account name in tooltip?
14:06:17 <flo> just the icons of the protocols. With 2 icons when there are several accounts for the same protocol. Greyed icons when the account is disconnected. The /!\ icon when there's a connection error.
14:08:49 <flo> if you really really want to add a tooltip now, displaying the panel that is on your screenshot without the X and -> (so no action possible) when hovering the icon of the status bar will be a great start. A double click in the status bar can open the account manager.
14:11:54 <Mic> hmm ..
14:12:56 <flo> if we try to do too much at once, we will get nothing done in a reasonable time ;)
14:13:48 <Mic> I agree with the icons but displaying such a panel without being able to change something doesn't right to me .. 
14:14:03 <Mic> I could more easily popup the account manager instead when clicking a protocol item
14:14:28 <flo> you can't click on this panel if it's a tooltip that disappears as soon as you move the mouse
14:14:46 <Mic> Because there people will also get the same information and additionally are able to do something about errors/..
14:15:52 <flo> but they will need an additionnal action to dismiss that window
14:18:04 <flo> I think it makes sense to have the "Connected for ... " info from a tooltip
14:22:19 * Troy_Away is now known as Troy
14:37:39 <GeekShadow> hey
14:37:51 <GeekShadow> how hard is to install AMO on a server ?
14:38:06 <GeekShadow> and also how much does it requiered in terms of bandwitdh ?
14:39:35 * Troy is now known as Troy_Away
14:40:35 <flo> GeekShadow: very very hard
14:41:02 <GeekShadow> really :/ ?
14:41:14 <flo> Even worked for weeks on that
14:41:21 <flo> and I'm not kidding
14:41:33 <flo> well, if you don't want to change anything in it it may be simpler
14:41:49 <GeekShadow> :( I did try one day but I give up because of some things  I didn't got
14:41:55 <flo> but we had to addapt it so that it doesn't display "Firefox" and "Mozilla Corporation" everywhere on every pages...
14:42:02 <Even> GeekShadow: it is simple if you want it to looks like the one branded EXACTLY and don't ant to change the applications it supports
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14:42:36 <Even> If you want to distribute extensions for someting else than Fx, thunderbird & co, it's reaaaalllly a pain.
14:42:43 <GeekShadow> flo, and on the server side ?
14:42:49 <Even> But you can see want changes are required looking into our repository...
14:43:01 <GeekShadow> is there a lot of things to get it work with for example an ovh server ?
14:43:06 <GeekShadow> *with
14:43:14 <Even> It might give you a sample of the work to do though you'll have to adapt each of our patches to match the changes you want to be done.
14:43:31 <flo> GeekShadow: with a dedicated server?
14:44:08 <GeekShadow> flo, "mutualisÃ©" hosting
14:44:28 <flo> if you can't install software on it... give up? :)
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14:45:00 <GeekShadow> flo, common, I already installed a few php applications on different servers
14:45:06 <GeekShadow> amo is just... heavy
14:45:27 <flo> I meant software like database, scripts launched by crontab entries, etc...
14:46:47 <GeekShadow> ok, crontab no idea of what is it :p but I'm good at installing mediawiki/wordpress/phpbb/punbb/...
14:47:08 <GeekShadow> is there alternatives for amo ? something more lite ?
14:47:21 <GeekShadow> amo is aimed for multiple softwares
14:48:12 <flo> not that I'm aware of (about alternatives)
14:48:24 <flo> even changing the visual theme was a pain
14:48:48 <Even> https://hg.instantbird.org/websites/remora/repos/
14:49:14 <Even> That is the list of changes that was needed to get from the official version to the instantbird version.
14:49:19 <Even> You can look at it.
14:49:46 <Even> Better putted like that than a lot of explanations of how much work it is.
14:49:58 <flo> Even: are the css files included in this?
14:50:39 <Even> yes
14:50:50 <Even> This contains the complete changes to get to the Ib website.
14:50:54 <Even> There is EVERYTHING there.
14:55:04 <Even> https://hg.instantbird.org/websites/remora/repos/rev/1b24163ccf92 <= that is the revision that fix the theme
14:56:01 <Even> That part was a huge work but it's not mine ^^.
14:56:07 <flo> :)
14:56:09 <flo> team work ;)
15:01:31 <Even> Yep. Totally :)
15:03:19 <Even> GeekShadow: as a matter of fact, I strongly advise you not to try to have your own remora installation if you don't very well understand PHP, browsers, script shell, javascript and CSS or know people that can help you in those domains that you don't feel confidnet into.
15:04:05 <Even> And you have better to have a good idea of how apache works and is configured since I had to tweak its installation to produce special rotating logs for remora to work.
15:04:53 <Even> Those parts are definitely not in the repository and there is a lot of work that don't show there that are of the same sort.
15:04:59 <GeekShadow> actually I understand, and I'm learning this ;)
15:05:03 <Even> (configuration all around like cron etc)
15:05:12 * Troy_Away is now known as Troy
15:05:40 <Even> remora involves daily, weekly and monthly scripts if I remember well.
15:05:48 <flo> Even: are there some of these issues that we should report to remora's developers so that it's less of a pain the next time we have to change/upgrade it?
15:05:56 <Even> Even if the first two are the most revelent ones.
15:06:07 <Even> flo: nop in fact
15:06:27 <Even> flo: they describe all their horrible stuff as wanted in their documentation...
15:06:46 <Even> And whatsover, it uses CakePHP and that, by itself, is an issue.
15:06:58 <flo> I didn't mean to troll
15:07:13 <Even> I don't mean it like a troll :).
15:07:18 <Even> It's a fact :P
15:07:21 <flo> but things like making sure "Firefox" is not hard coded for example...
15:07:53 <Even> A framework that to display you a page has to check that every database exists and has the correct shema even if those tables are not needed and that is loading every model of every pages for no reason is an issue :P
15:08:12 <Even> Well, that is part of the thing they are presenting as wanted in the documentation.
15:08:28 <Even> It's so much better than to put hem in a database you understand. It removes a lot of overhead...
15:08:54 <flo> it could be something that is replaced automatically when you install
15:08:57 <Even> That don't prevent those applications to have id in the database. And that don't prevent those ids to be requested in the database for nearly each page.
15:09:08 <Even> That could be.
15:09:13 <Even> But if it was done differently.
15:09:26 <Even> Those applications avec constants. Those constants are mapped to names.
15:09:47 <Even> And after that the code is assuming 1 is firefox all along and does some specifics to the browser all along.
15:09:51 <Even> That was a pain to remove that...
15:10:30 <Even> (like disabling the download link if the ID is 1 and the broswer version is not compatible with th addons wich resulted in all deactivated download links for Ib... saad)
15:10:50 <Even> Don't laugh :P
15:15:39 <flo> Even: all that sounds like bugs they could fix if they were aware of them
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15:40:20 <Mic> sounds messy
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16:49:52 <Mic> :)
16:49:57 <Mic> Bugzilla is back
16:57:15 <Mic> flo: beside new features: what bugs do you want to be fixed before 0.2?
17:20:30 <flo> I have a bunch of them that aren't on bugzilla (yet)
17:20:39 <flo> the "Your account is disconnected" that appears in a loop
17:20:57 <flo> the issue with ICQ display names
17:21:42 <flo> the issues related with building for linux distributions
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17:22:49 <flo> a valgrind error during DNS resolution on Mac
17:23:04 <Mitch> flo: When I tried to connect to irc.mozilla.org:6667 with SSL, I quickly learned it was the wrong port. I clicked disconnect, but it kept trying to reconnect regardless.
17:23:05 <flo> a few packaging issues
17:23:26 <flo> Mitch: I hate when libpurple does that :(
17:23:47 <Mitch> Hmm...so it's known.
17:23:52 <flo> not really
17:24:03 <flo> but the error handling of various protocols is very poor
17:24:44 <Mitch> The cynic in me says anything not Jabber or ICQ.
17:24:46 <flo> The fact that XMPP doesn't timeout when attempting (and failing) to connect to a server is even worse, because it will never retry (as it doesn't recognize that the first attempt failed)
17:25:30 <Mitch> Are you a Pidgin developer?
17:25:35 <flo> no
17:25:56 <flo> why?
17:26:19 <Mitch> Should have known. You accept outsider opinions. ;)
17:27:16 * flo keeps trying to avoid engaging *here* in a troll about developers of other applications.
17:28:14 <Mitch> If you were a Pidgin developer, you could fix it, I suppose.
17:28:27 <flo> I can fix it
17:28:35 <flo> if it's worth spending time on it
17:29:24 <flo> we use a fork of libpurple, so that we can fix serious issues without depending on other projects
17:29:47 <flo> but the more differences we have with the official library, and the more of a pain each upgrade is
17:30:50 <Mitch> Plus you can't get Instantbird into Ubuntu (or some other uptight distros) if you don't use system dependencies.
17:31:08 <flo> yeah, I know
17:31:30 <flo> Instantbird can't (and won't) work with the default libpurple
17:31:51 <flo> but we can try to make sure it will be able to load protocol plugins made for the official libpurple
17:32:49 <flo> I think that's an acceptable compromise, given that most libpurple security issues are in protocol plugins.
17:33:31 <Mic> I thought this is exactly what you once removed?
17:34:04 <flo> yeah...
17:34:46 <flo> we don't want to ship anymore libpurple plugins loaded by gmodule
17:35:14 <flo> and we have never (as far as I can remember) used the plugins installed outside of instantbird's application folder (or profile folders)
17:36:54 <Mitch> How different to upstream libpurple is Instantbird's?
17:38:06 <flo> we changed the preference system, the translation system, the way debug messages are handled, the way plugins are loaded, we removed the way libpurple stores most of its profile information, and a few minor adjustments/bug fix
17:38:35 <flo> ah, DNS resolution too has been changed
17:43:47 <flo> I removed the ssl certificate verification stuff. We have a correctly initialized by xulrunner NSS, so we don't need the approximate stuff libpurple is doing.
17:44:32 <flo> if you like looking at big patches: http://queze.net/goinfre/diff-current-to-2.6.4.patch
17:54:26 <Mitch> I see.
18:00:04 <flo> hmm, are there things listed in http://wiki.instantbird.org/Brainstorm:prefwindow that we should really fix before 0.2?
18:02:58 <flo> "Make the warning when closing a window with several tabs work " probable
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18:31:28 <Mic> "Add an info saying there is no installed theme"
18:31:39 <Mic> I thought this was fixed (I guess I'm mistaken)
18:35:13 <flo> I'm not sure we want to fix that
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18:35:25 <flo> given that we will include a few message themes by default
18:35:50 <flo> (but there are some of the items in that page that looked fixed without being marked there)
18:36:34 <Mic> I added some checkmarks on a few that I noticed
18:36:40 <Mic> a minute ago
18:39:30 <Mic> Could it be that disabled messagestyle extensions still appear in the list?
18:45:18 <Mic> I fixed it anyways
18:48:36 <Mic> Sorry, I can't create diff's right now (one of my hdd's broke down recently and took the clone of the repository with it:( )
18:48:38 <Mic> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/697570
18:48:46 <Mic> If you like it, take it
18:49:14 <Mic> scratch that .. I forgot that it has to be localizable :( 
18:49:57 * Mic is even messing up on five line patches :(
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18:50:34 <flo> Mic: smile a bit then :)
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19:15:09 <Mic> flo: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/697578
19:15:54 <Mic> It's a fix for the said problem
19:16:20 <Mic> Adds a "no themes installed"-item to the menu and hides it if there are some additional themes
19:17:59 <flo> is the value attribute needed?
19:18:21 <flo> why did you do it only for message themes and not emoticons?
19:19:03 <flo> otherwise it looks good :)
19:20:13 <Mic> ok, I add the same for emoticons too
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19:33:51 <Mic> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/697579
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20:02:11 <Mic> I think max-width/height would be a good idea on the notifications
20:02:58 <Mic> On contacts with large buddy images the box is deformed
20:25:52 <flo> yes, that was the idea. I just needs someone with enough motivation to reproduce it on Windows, and try to work on Windows
20:26:17 <flo> hmm, maybe it's possible to reproduce it on linux by disabling libnotify
20:51:03 <Mic> brb
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20:52:17 <Mic> flo: are there buddy icons anywhere for you?
20:52:36 <flo> what do you mean by "for you"?
20:52:39 <Mic> At the moment it doesn't show any for me
20:52:56 <flo> there are for contacts who have set one
20:53:17 <flo> it's currently not possible to do from instantbird, so if you have convinced all your friends to use instantbird, you can't test that bug :)
20:53:50 <Mic> No, it just doesn't show the buddy icons for contacts that I know have some
20:54:15 <Mic> Is it possible to disable/hide them somehow?
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22:38:03 <flo> the code to alias buddies looks ready.
22:38:05 <flo>  9 files changed, 159 insertions(+), 15 deletions(-)
22:38:53 <Chaz6> Awesome :)
22:40:01 <Chaz6> The next thing I could do with is the ability to move them from one group to another (at least until the new tagging system is done)
22:41:34 <flo> that's coming ;)
22:42:10 <Chaz6> What happened to the win32 nightlies?
22:43:48 <flo> nothing special
22:44:07 <flo> all nightlies failed this night
22:44:21 <Chaz6> Hm, well the win32 build is stuck at jan 1st
22:44:32 <flo> yesterday the windows nightly failed because of an issue on the build VM
22:44:34 <Chaz6> osx/linux are 15th jan
22:44:47 <flo> and before that, we had no nightlies at all because of a server issue
22:48:19 <Chaz6> Aha! Glad it is all sorted now :)
22:48:24 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/f44489057a10 - Florian Qu?ze - Handle buddy list keypress events on groups and buddies separately.
22:48:25 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/7d0d6f172c07 - Florian Qu?ze - Alias buddies.
22:50:34 <flo> I've been missing aliases for so long that it's almost surprising to see it working (though I worked on that feature during the last 3 days, and already thought about it way before...)
23:07:56 <flo> hmm, it doesn't seem to work on AIM. I don't understand why. There's nothing protocol specific in this code :-S.
23:26:29 <flo> ok, fixed.
23:28:26 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/d70ac565c4d1 - Florian Qu?ze - Store aliases on the server for protocols that support it.
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