Which U.S. City Has the Highest Murder Rate Per Capita?

The answer is surprising.

88 thoughts on “Which U.S. City Has the Highest Murder Rate Per Capita?

  1. The “answer” is not an answer at all, it’s bloviating from a wacko. Nice try though you sneaky misinformationists. I was intrigued before I uncovered your lie.


  2. Wow, Andrew. Lashing out a bit there bro. It’s not a lie. If a baby’s life is taken away, it’s a murder.

    You know, if a person murders a woman who is pregnant, he will be tried for double murder. But if a mother goes into an abortion clinic and sucks a baby out of a tube, it’s called “choice.”


    1. Your really playing with the numbers aren’t you; yet another case of hijacking a subject to suit your own view of the world. Setting aside the entire abortion debate, the DATA is about HOMICIDE rates – not your own personal definition. Can you try to be a little less biased?


  3. Nice propaganda you anti-choice, sexist pig. Get with the times. Nowadays, it is called CHOICE BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DECIDE FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHAT TO DO WITH THEIR BODY. Sorry if I don’t respect your opinion but since you never have to go through the ordeal of being pregnant, being the most responsible parent, and going through all the biological effects of having a child you really have no idea.


    1. Jennifer – IT is a Child not a Choice. You shouldn’t be able to choose to let someone live or die just because they may make you fat during pregnancy or it may not fit into your oh so important schedule. You talk about being responsible, “responsible” would be using protection or being abstinent so you never find yourself in the predicament of having to choose between letting an innocent baby live or to murder him or her. That is what is wrong with you and a good chunk of people in the world – you don’t want to accept the consequences of your actions and make the best of the situation. A loving family could adopt the unwanted child. An abortion is just a way for you to continue on with your life as you feel it should be and not realizing that maybe the child you murdered was to be a part of your life to enrich your life.


      1. What would you say to a bright young white female student who is violently beaten and raped repeatedly by a 47 Y O black man who was a homeless intravenous drug using junky .He got her pregnant ,and was released due to incompetent Police and DA vs public defender


      2. Would it have been more palatable if it had been a 47 Y O WHITE man who was a homeless intravenous drug using junky? Why the need to specify a color??


    2. I’m glad my mother wasn’t an immature ***** and kill me just because she was not ready. She was 15 when she had me. Young I know but see if abortion was her choice she would have never given me the chance to experience the greatness of what life brings.


    3. here’s an idea if you cant take care of a baby keep your legs shut the fact is abortions are for whores that cant keep there legs closed i mean what do you expect to happen if you have sex so yea if you abort a baby that is homicide get your head out of your ass


      1. u must be young i dont agree w abortion but under circumstances i can see y it must happen, rape, incest, being thirteen or health reason. yes u r correct, some may use it as birthcontrol or can someone just feel they just wasnt ready at that particular moment. in life i dont agree with a lot things but u must understand y people do the things they do so u wont be so opionated, bias, close minded adoption is not always a answer , to many children there now, who never been adopted. yes not being responsible in using protection, but lets be realistic on that matter. stop using the word people- ABSTINENCE its not going to happen for most part. when ur situation arises u can handle it ur way oh by the way how many have u adopted so far


  4. Jennifer, it sounds to me like you are saying that 1) you have had an abortion, and 2) the “responsible” thing to do is have an abortion (since you are the “most responsible parent”). If you have had an abortion, know that I’m not attacking you. I know that not just a baby dies inside of you during an abortion. Literally, a part of you dies. There are deep wounds that come with that and a lifetime of pain. I also understand it’s difficult to be pregnant. I’ve never experienced it obviously, but to me (and millions of women) there has to be a better solution than killing the baby. I guess, if one isn’t married, perhaps they should have made the CHOICE to not have sex in the first place in order to not have to come to the decision of whether or not to have an abortion. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

    Now, Jennifer, you might say then that I’m putting moral restrictions on you. That could be, but I doubt it. Consider my alternative. We need a radical reshaping of the way we do relationships, sex, family, and marriage in our society. We have a 51% divorce rate. We kill thousands of babies a year. Homes are broken from upper-class to the ghettos in America. People are not happy. Something needs to change and it starts with the way we do family. If America’s way of marriage and sex is the right way, then why isn’t it working? Perhaps it’s because the biblical view of marriage and sex is what we were designed for. Perhaps then, and only then, will we experience the most joy and satisfaction in marriage and sex.

    Finally, you said that you “don’t respect [my] opinion.” That’s interesting to me. I assume that you would be very tolerant with any viewpoint. However, I’m willing to bet that you are not tolerant of those views that come from a biblical perspective. That is, you are probably not tolerant of those views that contradict your personal morality and require some kind of change in belief, attitude, and behavior. In other words, anything that threatens your lifestyle is considered to be primitive (“Get with the times”) or controlling (“Nice propaganda”). In essence, your comment implies that you are imposing the same restrictions on my morality as I am “imposing” on you. You think I’m absolutely wrong. I think you are absolutely wrong. One of us HAS to be right.

    (By the way, to all readers: any more comments with name-calling [e.g. “sexist-pig”] will be deleted. Keep the comments intelligent, not attacking. There’s really no need for that.)


      1. I had a friend in college who was birthed by a rape victim. She was given up for adoption. Let’s suffice it to say that she is very glad her mother didn’t “choose” to “abort” HER.


    1. james way to go. all the self opinions but none of is thru God. we must be realistic also under God we know it s murder but when dealing with society its not against the law. a women and a man has a right to choose for their own body God gave us those right. Some choose correctly and some not we just have to continuing praying for everyone


  5. Why dont you find something better to do with your time. This is really a waste of my time to read. If you feel that way about abortion then fine. But there are a “staggering” number of people in this country that believe that a woman should and does have the right to choose. The law states that a fetus before a certin gestational age is not considered a “human” so….. they are not mudering humans. Or wait would you rather have that? Should we outlaw abortion so that a woman must live an accidnt so that she is so overwhelmed by the responisbility of caring for something that she feels incapable of caring for that she does acctually kill an infant or worse raises a child in an enviornment where he/she is exposed to drugs and crime and the like or better yet a life feeling unloved!! What are you thinking?? Grow up! Think about the increase futher in to incarceration rates, welfare, kids in foster care, orphans. Did you do any research on that?? Bet not.


    1. First of all, being over whelmed is never a good reason to take a life. My baby is 5 months old and I had those kinds of thoughts as well. But guess what? Its not as overwhelming as I thought. So I would have killed my beautiful little BOY for nothing. And I have 4 children. Please stop trying to make excuses for abortion. It is not right and deep down inside we all in this world know this. And know this, God is Real and there are consequences to our actions. So with that being said…you may abort this fetus who would have turned into a human if you would have given it a chance but just know your action will not go unpunished!!! You better hope God has more mercy on you than you had on that baby.


    2. jd ; i according to your logic should have been aborted; abandoned and tortured as a child, drug addict, bank robber, ex con… now years later, by the grace of, yes, God, a happy successful grandfather of three with two more on the way, who loves helping seniors and anything kind. i am sooo thankful my mother let me try.


  6. JD,

    Have you done the research on how many families would like to adopt children? Bet not.

    Can you answer this: if the “fetus” is not a human, what is it then?

    A plant?

    A dog?

    A truck?


    1. It’s a fetus. Fetus =/= human. Really, it’s a parasite, because it’s living off the mother’s body, until it’s formed enough to be able to survive on its own, and by that point, it is very illegal to abort.


  7. You people are freaking crazy!!!

    What does the murder rate have to do with ABORTION? Absolutely nothing. But since that seems to be the topic at hand, I did want to point out that James, it’s religious fanatics like you that really make people not want to associate themselves with religion.

    I know girls who have had 4 or 5 abortions. I know girls who have been raped and had abortions. I know people who are MARRIED and have had abortions.

    Oh, and the divorce rate is a joke. Maybe the divorce rate wouldn’t be so high if so many people didn’t get married?


    1. People dont want to associate them selves with religion because they dont want to be under the laws of God. And one thing about it, you are under the law weather you associate your self or not. Jesus is REAL weather you believe it or not. Think about it….Jesus is either Real or not. If he is not then you are O.K. But if he is, I feel sorry for you because you are denying the one who will save you from burning. God reveals him self to those who seek him and if you dont seek you shall not find!! Much Love to you.


      1. According to the Bible all you have to do is accept jesus as Lord and Savior and all sins are forgiven and u will not burn,that is ,unless u have or do ever,Blaspheme the Holly Spirit.That is unforgivable.The more I studied Theology the more problems I noticed.Like after prayer,every,and I mean every,single time always ends with AMEN, always, always.It’s pronounced ahh mun, not A MEN.Why?what does it mean?do u know?That word has been around longer than Jesus.It’s ancient Egyptian and was chanted as a way to give homage to AMEN supreme god of the universe,and to RA the sun God,and after the two merged became AMEN-RA.And for the life of me I cant Find it’s place in Christianity,and nobody can give me an answer.Or Why Won’t God heal amputees?My questions are not allowed at church anymore.why bother


    2. And please dont call us crazy. Because telling someone to save a life rather than to end a life is a good and positive thing. When I was young I though the same way you did about abortion. And acually had one. And because I knew God, he eventually revealed to me that abortion is not an option. Now, I dont claim to be saved because I’m not living a complete christian life but me knowing God keeps me from being like the rest of the world..Caught up in everything else not knowing who created them and what their purpose is in life. Seek my friend and you will find him. With much Love…


  8. Mike (aka Crazy),

    First of all, sorry if you get this twice, because I accidentally replied while my friend Rylan was logged in.

    Anyway, here’s six things:

    1) I think it’s odd that everyone here complains that I’m “preaching” when that is exactly what you all are doing back. All I did was provide a link, after all. Everyone here says that I should have tolerance, yet you are not having tolerance for my conviction. That’s hypocritical.

    2) I’m not religious. Jesus actually mocked religious people (Matthew 23 would be one great example of that).

    3) I simply love Jesus and he doesn’t offer religion. He offers himself. And I’m humbled that it’s actually “fanatics like me” that God uses to make people want to associate with Jesus.

    4) You simply knowing women who have had abortions does not prove that abortion is not murder. (As a side, I want to point out that Christians are called to love people who have had abortions. It’s true that a lot don’t do a good job. We should provide support and community to bring gospel healing to their heart. However, this fact doesn’t mean that we should not speak out against it beforehand so that it doesn’t happen.)

    5) Perhaps if people did marriage God’s way, they wouldn’t get divorced. You will say, “Well Christians have just as high of a divorce rate of non-Christians.” To that, I respond that people who call themselves Christians but do not follow Christ (that’s what “Christian” means!) are probably not Christians in the first place. Just because you mark “Christian” on a census doesn’t mean you are Christian. Also, being “born in the church” doesn’t make you a Christian any more than being born in a garage makes you a Chevy Tahoe.

    6) The reason you, and everyone else, is offended is simply due to the fact that don’t want someone to challenge your worldview and lifestyle. Yet, that is exactly what you are doing to me: challenging my worldview and lifestyle. Again, that’s hypocritical.

    So, I’ll close with this: you all seem to be hypocrites, so you should just join us in the church! You’ll fit right in with me and the rest of us hypocrites who are seeking to repent and grow and know God through his only Son, Jesus. He really does bring healing and redemption to sin-sick lives. I’m one example among billions throughout history.



    1. i love u james. tell it like it is. see many dont like christian lifestyles or religious views because they love their life of sin. if u have an abortion before u seek God u will be forgiven but sin no more in the name of the father


    2. When you say follow Christ what do you mean?And how much following would someone have to do before YOU would consider them worthy of your recognition of being a christian?


  9. Jennifer’s comment does bring truth to the saddening fact that in our culture, the more responsible parent is supposed to be the woman, and the husband gets all sorts of freedoms. If you look back on history, it was quite the opposite, regardless of the culture–and there are a lot of cultures out there today that make man the more responsible parent.

    The Bible places the “responsibility of the family” on the husband, not the wife. Now, I know that we live in a culture much different than when the Bible was written, but why can’t men be the most responsible figure in the family today? It doesn’t mean that we belittle the responsibility of the wife.

    How many abortions and divorces would happen if men were willingly responsible for their actions?


  10. How many abortions and divorces would happen if men were willingly responsible for their actions?

    Significantly less than what we have now.


  11. you know im not even at all religious but it should be obvious why abortion is wrong, its up there with murder and its inhuman to even agree with it. i dont see why a growing baby should have to die because of some womans selfish decision to not take responsibility for their actons. its irrelevant how stressful pregnancy can be, all woman i believe realize that they have a human baby forming and growing inside of them and to think its should be a choice to murder your baby offspring discusts me. i think anyone that has respect for another life should agree. And im not attacking women with this in fact i think most mothers after having givin birth and watching their children grow feel more strong about this, anyway im sorry but if me being anti murder makes me anti choice then so be it!


  12. The people who insist “the second a egg is fertalized it’s a baby” really need an education. Quit taking science lessons from a guy who’s only college text book was written by King James.

    Ever examine some of the termonology used by your religious leader? Your congregation is sometimes called a flock and your leaders “shepards”. It’s because your all mindless sheep who are being used for what you can provide. Start thinking before you become mutton.

    Go read some REAL SCIENCE books written in the last 50 years then come back.


  13. Mike,
    Due to the apparent fact that you lack the capacity to open a dictionary, let me try to spell this out in a way that you can understand.
    Murder by its definition is the unlawful killing of another human being (emphasis on unlawful). Since abortion, in the United States and in the state of Iowa, is not prohibited by law, it does not qualify as unlawful killing. Therefore abortion does not qualify as murder by its very definition. For this reason, the nonsense you felt you would share with everyone searching the internet for legitimate valid statistics is categorically wrong, and you are merely propagating misinformation and, in effect, lying to people. The only impact you are having is successfully alienating the numerous people, like myself, who do not have especially strong feelings either way. However, due to my disdain of deceptive individuals who waste other peoples time and my desire to disassociate myself with such individuals, it is safe to say that I am little more pro-choice now than when I woke up this morning. Keep up the good work.


    1. Dave, you’re right on the money, abortions are not technically murders.
      But if you again use your dictionary abortions can be classified as homicides.
      Someone correctly mentioned the point that someone murdering a pregnant women can also be charged with the killing of a second human: the baby.
      You can’t have it both ways. Either the unborn baby is a human or it’s not.
      As an atheist I don’t support either side of this debate but I want to call things as I see them. Homicide is homicide is homicide.


    2. dave; remind you that the law also said black folk were 2/3 a human being at one point. you keep your laws i’ll take my conscience. and golly dave where did you learn all those big (multi syllabic) words. impressive..


  14. To whoever said “we live under the laws of god cause JESUS is real” well just like abortion religion is also a choice n if you are that true believer you claim to be you wouldn’t be working yourself up on others peoples choices and if you are so pro life then I assume you have adopted a few kids or at least fostered a few kids. It’s easy to judge when you are not the one put in their situation and you would also know that it’s not in your place to judge!


  15. I don’t count myself as a religious man. I haven’t been to a church since my wedding 6 years ago, and before that was about another 10 years. I don’t believe in Jesus, and I absolutely hate being bothered at my house by people trying to preach the word of God.

    Getting mad at James for posting a link that illustrates his opinion about abortion is just plain stupid. Would you want him to come to your blog and insult your views? The ONLY person in this entire argument that has actually provided a well thought out, intelligent argument is surprisingly James.

    I say surprisingly because the majority of religious fanatics spout off like Jenae stating: “God is REAL.” Well, I’m glad you believe that, and I hope that works out for you. However, this is not a statement of fact because you say it is so. Nor is it a fact because an overwhelming majority of people believe so. The majority of people are below average intelligence, just something to keep in mind.


    Good point. The whole “God will punish you” crap doesn’t hold water with me, but this is a valid point. For me religion has no place in the argument about whether abortion is right or wrong. I don’t care about what your god wants. But this next quote is spot on:


    James, you have nailed it. There is no accountability anymore. Everybody wants the easy out, the quick buck, the frivolous lawsuit. My wife was adopted by just such a person that did not want their child, and I for one am glad that they choice to have the child and give it up rather than abort her.

    I am neither for or against abortion. Being a male, it really isn’t my choice to make. I feel that a woman who is raped by her father and impregnated should be able to abort the child, sure. Do I believe women should use abortion as a form of birth control because they are irresponsible sluts? No.

    James, thank you for putting forth an intelligent and well thought argument. It’s actually refreshing to see somebody on your side of the argument not make the argument “God is right, you are wrong, die sinners!”


    1. Alan, thanks for your kind words. I truly appreciate it.

      Thanks for stopping by the blog, and I hope to see you back here again some time.



      1. James, I was attempting to actually look up the murder capital of the USA. Instead, I ended up here. As a retired teacher, parent, grandparent, you seem like a pretty cool kid.

        I’m amazed how cruel followers of Christianity can be. Would love to see dialogue that didn’t include attacks. Disagreements that are not personalized. No two people will ever agree on everything.

        This conversation reminds me why I stopped attending church 45 years because I found the people there to hypocritical. How we live our lives is what matters. Extend love and compassion to everyone to the best of your ability; that doesn’t mean agreeing. It means speaking YOUR truth, whatever it be. But, don’t get locked into what you your truth is; it may be changed for you. Open your mind to that possibility. You have no idea what may be in your future.


    2. i dont know how old u r. but u must believe at some point. u gotten married in a church. thats where God and Jesus dwells. u can say u did it for the family and wife. if i never believe i would never been in no one church. but i do agree with majority of the things u said


  16. James,
    I found this blog by accident. In fact this is the first time I have added my two cents into a website like this. I replied to Dave before I knew how to properly use this website but I want to support you in expressing your views, even though as an atheist we view reality differently.
    Try using the word homicide instead of murder, this might take care of those who are technically challenged.


  17. James,

    I don’t disagree with the moral views you have posted on your site. However, underlying your moral view is likely the view that you feel that abortion should be illegal. I think it the underlying perception that you want to restrict someone’s freedom of choice that is the difference in your views and the views that you call hypocritical.

    I am not being hypocritical because I am not telling you what to believe. I would never advocate that my moral views should be laws that you would have to follow. But what gives you the right to attempt to force your moral views on me through legislation and laws designed to regulate my morality?

    I truly believe that abortion is morally wrong. However, I do not want to live in a country where we throw away science, medicine and logical reason in favor of the personal religious and moral views of the majority.

    You asked “What does it take to qualify as a human being?” Science has attempted to answer this with varying results. However, each result through medical or scientific reasoning does not indicate that human life starts immediately at conception. Your opinion that it does is simply that… it is your opinion. When you prove to all of us that God gives the sperm and egg a soul as soon as they meet, then I will join your cause.

    I believe that if Christians want to received like I believe Jesus would have intended, they will go back to bringing people to the Lord through their personal examples and the spreading of his message. Instead it seems many Christians have become lobbyists to outlaw those things that they feel are immoral. Do you really believe that Jesus would have lobbied the Romans to outlaw things he felt were immoral? Or would he have told his flock that they had the freedom to sin just as they have the freedom to follow the Lord and be rewarded with eternal life.


  18. John,

    Thanks for stopping by, and the comment. A couple things before I provide some verses of what God thinks.

    – When does a baby become human? That sperm and egg that join together ain’t gonna be a chicken, that’s for sure.
    – I’m not a lobbyist. I’m just trying to protect those who can’t protect themselves. Justice says that society’s moral and ethical duty is to do this. Who is more helpless than an unborn baby?
    – Except in the most rare cases (and they are much more rare than liberals will admit to), the right of an unborn child to life is greater than the right of a woman to use abortion as a means of contraception, since the woman’s right to be free from pregnancy is not as great as the unborn’s right to be free from life-threatening violence. This is what common justice says.

    Now, consider these verses:

    Luke 1:41, 1:44, 2:12, 2:16, 18:15-16,
    – Here, Luke uses the same words for preborn/unborn (“baby in her womb”) and born children. He even says that John the Baptizer leaped for joy when he was in Elizabeth’s womb.

    Ex. 21:22-25
    – Here God plainly says: “Don’t mess with a pregnant woman and her baby or I will punish you.”

    Psalm 139:13-14
    – God fearfully made and formed us while we were in our mother’s womb.

    Exodus 1:15-22
    – Egyptian woman were told to abort Hebrew male babies. But the Egyptian woman didn’t do it because they “feared God.” Why? Because they knew that God made those babies — from conception.

    These verses don’t talk about sperm and egg, but if God made the person, he made the sperm and egg join together. He made it grow. If you believe God creates people, then you believe he creates them from the very moment they are conceived.

    Furthermore, Jesus’ poor, helpless, husband-less, jobless, teenage mom should have had an abortion according to our cultural standard of what a “mom” is. She wasn’t a good candidate, but her son atoned for the sins the world.

    And if you haven’t seen this video, check it out. (No, it’s not one of those videos with nasty aborted babies. It’s a video from a pastor in Minneapolis talking about life).

    take care,


    1. Now I never suggested that Christians can’t participate in government. I would agree that the bible indicates that life begins at conception. What I am curious about is why you believe that your religious beliefs should become our laws? I understand that you believe life begins at conception and that you believe that laws against abortion would be protecting life. What I don’t understand is why so many Christians can’t understand that passing laws based on the biblical interpretation of conception is forcing others to follow your beliefs.

      Is someone not allowed to believe that life begins with the first heartbeat? Or the first brain activity? Or when blood first appears? And don’t people who chose not to believe in the bible have the right to base their opinions on a scientific determination of when life begins rather than a biblical one?

      I just don’t believe that we can force our religious beliefs on everyone in this country and continue to call ourselves the “land of the free.”

      You asked at one point, “if the fetus is not human then what is it?” I actually would be perfectly fine with a law that said you couldn’t abort a fetus. Of course, a fetus doesn’t develop until about eight or nine weeks after conception. I think the proper question would be if a zygote is not a human then what is it? Well, a zygote has no blood which Leviticus says our life is in our blood (although depending on which version the passage could mean numerous other things).

      I am a little surprised by your statement concerning “Jesus’ poor, helpless, husband-less, jobless, teenage mom. . .” First, she was not husband-less, she was betrothed to Joseph in the first stage of Jewish marriage when she became pregnant. Second, most women in that time had their first child while in their teens. Third, I would doubt if many would refer to her as helpless at the time. Fourth, not real sure about the poor thing. Joseph was a carpenter and would guess that status wise Mary would have been in the same economic class. I think people make the mistake of assuming that since Jesus was born in a manger that Joseph and Mary were poor. If I remember correctly it was because the Inn was full, not b/c they couldn’t afford a room.


      1. The Bible is just a story. Not to be taken literally 2,000 years later. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I am always amazed there are people who choose their politicians based on their views re: abortion.


    2. Isaiah 1 :15 “and when you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you : yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear : your hands are full of blood.”


    3. What about people like me who believe the bible is literature.? What about people like me who can feel god so strongly in the depths of my soul til I can hardly stand up?

      I have visited some of the oldest churches on earth; sat quietly, feeling the vibration of the church. I love churches as long as there are no people inside.

      My life as an educator has been focused on the poor, difficult, homeless, etc. I knew what I needed to do. And I did it well. Sometimes the very words I needed to say to an adolescent would come right out of my mouth, and they were right. They were not my words.

      Have you meditated to the point where you had no awareness of the earth we live on? That’s what’s exciting. Breaking thru the rules, going beyond the energy of my body and somewhere far beyond.


  19. And John, yes I do want abortion to be illegal. Just like I want to keep murder illegal. I don’t buy the argument about Jesus’ not lobbying and so therefore Christians can’t participate in government. Remember that Jesus didn’t live in a democracy. We do, and it’s a blessing that we can interact in our governmental system in order to protect those who need it most.


  20. Jesus wasn’t born into an affluent family. Remember, even Philip said, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”

    It was cultural unacceptable for Mary to have a baby, because Joseph was going to “divorce her quietly” because he was a righteous man (Matt. 1:19).

    And making “my morality” to be everyone’s law isn’t about religion. I’m not forcing anything. I’m pleading with people. I’m asking people to consider these things. Proposing ideas and writing blogs is hardly “forcing.” Moreover, it’s mainly about protecting those who can’t protect themselves.


    1. James, do you quote the bible so often as you live your life? Or, is it just to make a point.? I think you said you were an atheist? No? Non Christians can use the Bible very successfully to communicate with those who are religious.

      No, you didn’t say you were an atheist, you said you have your own relationship with god? I think.


  21. Dude, Would you rather have a A kid grow up poor and turn to a life of crime or have one friggin abortion? Really dude, if it’s going to be a bad life for the kid then don’t let it happen.

    and if they choose the abortion, I’m pretty sure it’s not going to leave Life scars, they’ll just feel kinda skanky.

    Views like this is why science is far behind what it could be.


    1. John,

      I am not sure if this is a serious post but if so then you make some erroneous assumptions. If a kid grows up poor that does not mean that he will turn to a life of crime. And how would you know what kind of life a child will have before its born?

      While it is not expressed overwhelming well, you are right. Studies do show that women who have had an abortion do not suffer lifelong anguish as some like to suggest. The same and similar studies often indicate that women who give a child up for adoption do suffer from their decision. They constantly wonder about the child, question if they made the right decision, worry about whether the child is alright and happy. However, the lack of remorse does not justify immorality.

      Note: I am not arguing with myself. Guess another person using the name John joined the discussion.


    2. John,

      I come from a belief that a human life is invaluable, and I would like to think that God can do whatever he pleases with that life. It’s not mine to decide that he will go into crime and therefore kill him. If that is the logic you are using, then why don’t you go into every ghetto in NY, LA, Chicago, and Miami and take the lives of impoverished kids? Where is the line, John? How can you decide to kill a person in a mother’s body but not a one year-old in the poorest neighborhood?

      And If you want to call sucking a baby out of tube “science,” go ahead. But that’s not science. That’s infanticide.



      1. Do you have the same reverence for all life: the prisoner, the minority teen who may cross your path, the person who rapes your loved one. Are all of these lives worth fighting for in the same way?


      2. If god Detests sin so much that he will not be in it’s presence.Why would God who loves us design us to fail,to be incapable of living without sinning .How about Predestination.God controls every thing except free will,right?Even tho he already knows your choices.So when Judgement day comes the amount of saved people compared to the amount of people not saved will be a fraction.God who loves us is all knowing,and already knew this,and created man, Adam who was perfect,then he took back some of what he already gave and then created Eve and rules.Eve was created not perfect,Both Adam and Eve were completely innocent, then God leaves his 2 innocent children alone,all alone in the Giant garden oh yea alone with the Serpent, the Devil himself, in the flesh,Can you guess why?


    3. john (dude) : i was that child (poor, criminal etc.). thankfully the God who created me in that original situation is also the God of redemption and endless mercy. The lives he has alowed me to impact with love far outweigh the ugly beginnings. i am priveleged to be alive.


    4. first off i grew up poor free store cloths all that good stuff an sh** i still am poor yeah i’ve done a few things i aint proud of but people that blame their crimes on being poor are retarded i have two cousins that grew up in a $250,000 dollar house an was addicted to heirroine (i think i spelled that right) their parents made i know atleast $100,000 a year if not a little more they stole from their parents along with their richie rich friends and they blamed their sh** on being bored so like i said to the chick that i commented on before take your head out of your ass


      1. Shane, I’m a retired teacher and grandma. I grew up poor and very abused. Somehow, I didn’t get into trouble and was able to get an education. I have devoted my life helping kids like you. I wish you had been in my school. There’s nothing wrong with being poor. I have no doubt you are the best you can today. That doesn’t mean you can’t do better tomorrow. The least important thing in my life today are the “things” that I have. What is important to me are the people I love, the people I can offer a hand, etc.

        Don’t be ashamed. I still feel shame sometimes at 65 years old. Love yourself and those who deserve your love. Stop looking back. Be poor, accept that you are. It just means you have less things right now. And, our whole country is going to have less things.

        Honey, stand tall. I will be sending you healing energy.


  22. I was just thinking how blessed we are that we are not like the heathen of old who in order to ensure prosperity would build their first born into the walls of their homes; of course “honey if we have this baby we’ll have to put off buying our first house for years”, or “we’ll never get out of debt with this baby coming” is nothing like that; there’s no comparison. How about Jeremiah 7 : “you have built the high places of Tophet, in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause your sons and daughters to burn in the fire.” Not us. Unless of course you realize that Tophet comes from the Hebrew for drum. You see, they would beat the drums loudly to drown out the screams of the children as they burned alive. Take a trip to Planned Parenthood sometime. The muzak gets progressively louder as you approach the “procedure rooms” and reaches its height where late term abortions are performed. I guess they fear any sound from that child being murdered might discourage a prospective client. I’m sure glad we aren’t like those heathens.


  23. As much as James tries, he allows the poison of his religious convictions to taint his every word. A wise man once said, “If you could reason with religious people, then there would not be religious people.” Abortion is legal in this country and, whether we like it or not, will not become illegal by religious fanaticism. The first amendment protects us from letting religion pollute our public interactions. Our founding fathers knew the tyranny of mixing faith with policy. Open the door and the United States of Theocracy would result. For those of you who think that would be good, just look to Iran as a guide. James, you are a male. I am a male. When you prove to me you can push a baby out of your member, then I will gladly listen to your prejudiced views. The problem with abortion is that men think they have all the answers on an issue women only should decide. Our role is to listen and support and understand what women believe is best for their reproductive rights. You women need to step up and tell men to butt out. Randall Terry is not your self-anointed spokesperson. Pro-Choice does not mean a person is anti-life. Keep the fairy tales out of your logic. You don’t need God to be good.


    1. Ohhhhhh, this is the best post I’ve read here. Thank you. I’m a woman who stands up for women’s rights . . . burned my bras in the 60s and 70s and my daughters are even stronger today. We stand strong. Thanks for speaking as a man for women.


  24. jim; since you accuse me of making things up, i will share with you, with my wife’s permission an actual experience. when she was 18 she went to the planned parenthood in castro valley, calif. where what i described happened exactly as i said. more than that , though, i wish i could share the pain and guilt that tormented her for years. no, not as you would like to believe, because she was chastised by a judgemental husband and society, just the opposite. she was loved and told that she was a beautiful and worthy human being. just as only a woman can know what childbirth is, so only a woman can know the loss, whether by abortion or miscarriage. nothing i could say could comfort her. the lie that there is no sense of loss haunts so many wonderful women. i have neither the desire nor the imagination to make up things so hateful. i just wish i could make up something to make so many feel better about being so decieved. you sound fairly bright, can you? your trite answers to the debate haven’t worked so far.


  25. to freeatlast: i’m not sure, but i think the wise man you refer to was chairman mao as he slaughtered 64 million people. if not verbatim that too was his belief.


  26. First of all, if you haven’t been pregnant you really have no idea what it’s like. I got pregnant at 17. I kept my daughter and could’ve easily gotten an abortion. Just because someone says you CAN do something doesn’t make it right. I did actually think of having an abortion but the thought of killing my child was horrifying. People get pregnant and give their children to adoptive families everyday. The problem with society these days….as someone earlier said”get with the times” is that people are so selfish all they care about is what is conveniant for them. I’m sorry but if you get pregant…kill your unborn child your a selfish bastard and you should be shot. I know girls from my highschool who didn’t want to get fat, or didn’t want their parents to know, or didn’t want to give up their freedom. Keeping my child was the smartest thing i have ever done. I was a partier and i was out of control. Being a parent makes you wake up and realize what is important. And yeah you gain some weight while your pregnant but it goes away. Get the fuck over yourself and either keep your baby or give it to someone who will love it.


  27. Also, my boyfriend is adopted. He met his real mother, she got pregnant at a young age and decide abortion was right for her. She was into drugs and parties and guess what she still is. When people say they don’t want to have kids because it will mess up their whole lives and they will be poor forever if they have a child young, guess what….you could possible still be a loser even if you have an abortion. I’m now 20 years old with a 2 year old. My parents kicked me out as soon as i told them, i have a great job, i’m in college, have a nice apartment. And by the way I’m not on WELFARE for the person who made a comment about that. I have done everything on my own and i’m doing just fine. It is possible and its hard but so what. You got pregnant, you played the game, you had fun, take responsibility. O, and my daughters father is nowhere to be found, so no help there either. People don’t choose abortion because it’s HARD, it’s difficult to see a child that has grown inside you, you felt it, you become connected to it and then you give it away, but for some reason going into a clinic and listening to the slurp of a tube is easier. I’m not exactly religious and I wouldn’t try to use religion as a reason not to have an abortion. It’s just wrong, and someone earlier was talking about definitions of murder and how a fetus isn’t a human. Obviously a fetus is a human when we are trying to put a murderer away. Seriously common sense people. I think that’s all i have to say.


  28. I am stunned that an article on HOMICIDE was taken over to discuss abortion, what gives? I can understand that entire matter is going to be heated regardless on which side we fall, but thats just not cool.


  29. I know that this is technically necro-posting, however, I just came across it today, and there is a valid point to be made here.

    It was said in one of the earlier posts that “What I am curious about is why you believe that your religious beliefs should become our laws?”

    My answer to that: Because they WORK. I’ll even give a few examples from Exodus 20:

    13 You shall not murder. << Murder is a felony in all states and territories.

    14 You shall not commit adultery. << Technically, not a law, but it is grounds for divorce.

    15 You shall not steal. <<Theft is punishable by law to varying degrees, depending on the amount stolen.

    16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. <<This is called Perjury, or Filing a false report.

    Now, I'm not a religious fanatic. I don't go to church, and I don't go around thumping people on the head with the Bible. As a matter of fact, I am not religious at all (Matthew 23)…. but, the Bible is full of good ideas and ways to do things. The further we get from it, the further the moral decay of society presents itself.


  30. Cappii,

    So there are some things in the bible that make sense to also make into law. I think everyone here would agree that it should be illegal to murder or steal. But should we also make a law that makes it illegal to put any other gods before God; or to use the Lord’s name in vain; or to work on the Sabbath; or to not honor thy parents; or to wish you had what your neighbor has? Additionally, Exodus 20 also states that you should not covet your neighbor’s slave – so were we wrong to outlaw slavery?

    Only three of the ten commandments are against the law. But your argument is that Biblical law should be the law because it works. And you believe it works because a few of the 10 commandments are also against the law. Of course, your argument would have to be based on the idea that if it weren’t for the 10 commandments that our government wouldn’t have made it illegal to murder and steal.


  31. If I could get everyone together to discuss the topic of abortion, I would invite them to a fancy chicken dinner. I would then be serving them fried eggs and as everyone looks perplexed I would explain that just because life begins at conception doesn’t mean it’s human life yet, just the same as conception of the egg is life, but not yet a chicken life. Anyone who disagrees must believe an egg is a chicken. Anyone who can see the difference between an egg and a chicken will also see the difference between initial human conception and a human being. There is no controversy here with the bible’s claim that life begins at conception – it does. And there is no controversy with the bible when I claim that that newly conceived life is not a human being, because the bible never claimed it is.

    Arguing against preventing that newly conceived life form from becoming a human being may be a noble cause, but leave the bible out of it I understand that for many, the bible is the strongest tool for fighting against abortion but too bad, as explained above, it simply does not apply.
    That’s where the big mistake comes into play; people that make the mistake of thinking that when the bible says “life”, it automatically means “human life” but the bible doesn’t say that. Heck, even an ameba is life, that doesn’t mean it should be illegal to kill an ameba.


    1. After my last (and first ever) post, I thought it more responsible to read all, rather than just some, of the previous posts and of course I now have more comments.

      First, James, I noticed your mellow attitude, even when responding to irritating nonsense that would deserve less polite responses. I commend you for it and will try to assimilate it into my behavior for your blog deserves no less. Forgive me if I slip up once in a while, for taking the high road is new to me. Thank you for inspiring me to do so, and feel free to call me on it if I slip up.

      On 4-15-09 you ask what is a fetus?
      Just because you don’t know what to call it, doesn’t automatically make it deserve the title “human” It starts out being cells that grow through duplication (mitosis). At this stage it is no more a human than blueprints are a house. Chromezones are the blueprints that will, given the chance, become a human being someday, just as blueprints for a house, given the chance, will become a house some day. To have an abortion (at least early on) makes someone no more guilty of killing a human being than my destroying the architects blueprints makes me guilty of destroying a house. Even after starting construction, the structure isn’t considered a house right away. There is first a foundation to be built, then plumbing and electrical lines must be supplied from the grid, then finally a framework is built for the walls, then the roof, and even at this point it isn’t considered a house yet. Quite frankly at what point it’s considered a house will be different to many people. Some will say when the structure is enclosed except for windows and doors; others will say, only after the windows and doors are installed, and still others, only after the cabinets, sinks, tub, carpeting, etc, are installed. There is no difinitive point that all can agree on. And that’s the main problem with abortion. Even you agree that there is no baby (human) right after conception (I’ll prove that in a moment) and I think any sane person will agree that there is the presence of a living baby (human) ten seconds before it comes out, so the real problem is deciding at what point does this pile of cells become a human being. And quite frankly, no one really knows, so people that think it’s homicide are deciding so, based on the very rudementory intellect (no insult intended) of, “It’s a baby the first time we laid eyes on it, therfore it must have been a baby all the time.
      We’re all familiar with the whimsical phrase of a pregnant woman having “a bun in the oven” In the real bakery, when making buns, are they buns the moment they are put in the oven? Of coursre not. Are they buns ten seconds before they come out of the oven? Of course they are. Somewhere in between they “became” buns, but they didn’t start out that way.

      I will now explain my claim that even you agree they’re not human beings right after conception. On October 6th 2009, you wrote:

      Sometimes reading what’s between the lines is more telling than what’s on the lines.

      The key words here, from your own mouth (key board, actually) are “GONNA BE”
      to extrapolate and read between the lines, it’s obvious the implication here could lengthen the sentence to give the answer right away. It would read:
      “That sperm and egg that join together ain’t gonna be a chicken, that’s for sure,it’s GONNA be a human.” You yourself are admitting here that it doesn’t start out being a human, by saying, it’s “GONNA be”, somewhere down the road.

      You had two posts on 10-06-09. I agree with both of them. I totally disagree with your view that abortion should be illegal, but, as the famous quote says, “I defend to the death your right to say it. I would even add another famous quote that I value even more, for the first speaks of your right (to say it), the second speaks of your obligation(to say it). That quote is: (I’m paraphrasing) “All evil needs to flourish, is for good men to do nothing” (men, meaning mankind, so women included).
      I commend you for being a good man that is doing something rather than nothing like mot people.

      I saw a “T” shirt once that exemplifies my view; it read:


      On 10-15-09 someone posted a quote I’ve never heard before but i liked very much:

      On 10-22-09 someone responded with:

      We’ll ignore the fact that killing 64 million people would have been logistically impossible for Mao and go right to the issue of even if that were true that doesn’t change how true the statement is. We all know the phrese: “Don’t kill the messenger” (just because the message is bad) Well this situation prompted me to create a new message: “Don’t kill the message” (just because the messenger is bad).

      There was a time in my life I wanted to become a pastor; I was that devout a believer. Now I no longer believe. It’s a subject i like to discuss; if you’re up for it, let me know.


  32. Gunther,

    I find it sad (and disturbing) that you just compared human life to a chicken and/or an egg, which was given to man for food.

    My wife is 13 weeks pregnant. We went to the doctor at 8 weeks. We looked at the ultrasound. We saw the heart beating. Our hearts melted. Why? Was it because we saw some kind of life form that is something other than human?

    No. We saw our human baby’s heartbeat.

    The disgusting part of all this is that abortions are allowed long after the baby develops a heartbeat.

    Saying that this “conceived life” is not human is stupid. Plain and simple.


    1. My,my, aren’t you the one that stated in an earlier post for people not to be insulting? Isn’t calling me stupid insulting? Maybe I gave you too much credit for always taking the high road, never the less, I will not waiver from it; you are the one that put me there and I’m there to stay.

      I strive to discuss intellectually, not emotionally. The egg/chicken example stands as a very good one. I would apologise if it was I that offended you or your wife, but alas, it was not I but you, for it is you that trys to make the comparison an emotional one instead of leaving it as the scientific/biological one that was presented. The egg is in no way a chicken – YET! And a newly conceived female egg is no human – YET! That is the comparison and nothing more. That comparison is a factual truth and if it offends you, blame your God for he made it so, not I; I’m just the messenger. Don’t shoot the messenger.

      People often get comparisons all confused and entangled into something they were never meant to be by the messenger. If, fot example, you had a mustash of the same style as Hitler had, I could make that comparison, and it would be accurate. For you to then get offended thinking I’m accusing you of having his moral standard would be a mistake on your part, not mine. And for you then to get angry at me for what was your mistake, compounds your wrong-doing. Now you have done an injustice, not only to youself, but to me as well. I forgive you.

      I am the father of two wonderful children; I know the joy the anticipation of birth can give and i would never say anything to taint that, but even in the case of my own two, I can seperate the joy that emotional feelings brings from the analitical fact of biology. Those beautiful children were at one time were nothing more than a fertilized egg. The difference biologically, between the chicken egg and the egg in your wife or mine, is that one has it’s gestation period inside its mother, and the other has it ouside its mother (not counting that other small difference of one becoming a chicken and the other a beautiful human baby) Think about it, they’re even both called fertilized eggs!
      My comparison is valid.

      As for the last line you wrote:
      I’m only saying it’s not human the day it was conceived, or the day after, or the day after that. I will and always have agreed that somewhere down the line it becomes human. I won’t debate at what point that is because I don’t know, and neither do you. You may have an opinion of when that is, but to think you know can come from only two sources; religious or non-religious. For it to be religious would mean you’re a religious fanatic and you’ve already stated that you’re not, and for it to be for non-religious reasons would make you more arrogent than I believe you to be, so we’re back to square one. I don’t know, you don’t know, I don’t believe science knows – yet – but I believe they will some day. Until then, each to their own opinion of when that pile of cells becomes a human being. Admittedly. I never gave it much thought before but I kind of feel comfortable with the belief that once it has a heart beat all it’s own it has become a sanctioned life form, IE, a human being.

      I wish much health, love and happiness to your unborn child, and through it – to the two of you.


  33. Gunther,

    Thanks for the compliments at the beginning. I try to be polite, but am not always successful.

    My writing “it ain’t gonna be a chicken,” from months ago, illustrates my stance that the so-called fetus cannot become anything less than a human being, for at conception it is a human being and it will be a human being at 6 months and it will be a human being at 43 years of age.

    Again, in your long paragraph, you are comparing human life to other, lesser created things (houses–inanimate things no less!–in this case). We cannot compare houses and humans, for if someone destroys a house, they will only be tried for murder if humans were inside. Further, the only worldview that allows room for the belief that human life is created with beauty, creativity, purpose, and intrinsic value is the Christian worldview. There is no other one.

    I’ll end with a question: Gunther, do you have children?


  34. Gunther,

    I did not call you stupid. Just your opinion. There is a difference.

    I’m delighted that you wrote, “I kind of feel comfortable with the belief that once it has a heart beat all it’s own it has become a sanctioned life form, IE, a human being.” Better than nothing…so you are on your way. ;)


    1. I accept that there is a difference between calling someone stupid, or just one thing they said or did is stupid. I therefore retract having accused you of such. It was stupid of me! (just kidding).


  35. I appreciate your responses and apologize for lack of brevity; it is viewed by some as a failing I have. I too wish I didn’t have that failing as the only way I know to type is the hunt-and-peck method, so if you think reading it is laborious, try typing it that way.

    I understand what you meant and that’s why I projected the sentence to a lenghtier conclusion with, “It’s gonna become a human”. By the way, i don’t understand the relevence of that comment in the first place; no one ever questioned that, given the chance, it would become anything but a human. The point I’m trying to make that you’re missing is that you yourself say it’s “GONNA” be a human. Would you say that woman that you live with is “GONNA” be your wife? Of course not. I bet you did when she was you fiance’ but once you’re married she is no longer gonna be you wife; she already is your wife. In the same respect when you say it’s gonna be a human is the same as saying it’s not yet a human but you have every reason to believe it will be some day.

    Your logic is flawed when you say because it’s gonna be a human, it must start out being a human. Based on that theory, because it’s gonna be a chicken it must already be a chicken when I crack open the egg and fry it up and serve it for dinner. If the egg came from Kentucky, we’d have Kentucky fried chicken.

    Whether we’re talking about a chicken egg or a human egg, once fertilized ,the concept is the same. Each has it’s “blueprint” in the DNA of both the mother’s egg and the father’s sperm. That DNA decides what it will eventually develope into. But prior to at least some of that development happening (during the beginning of the gestation period) it is just a bunch of cells multiplying through mytosis. It is not human yet. You mentioned you and you wife had the joy of hearing the baby’s heart beat. Next time she’s pregnant go to your doctor and ask him to let you hear the heartbeat when she’s only a week pregnant. The fact that she might not even know she’s pregnant only a week after insemination isn’t the point. The point is there will be no heartbeat because there is no heart yet, just the same as there is no human yet. Good point I just made. Have you ever heard of a living human without a heart (not counting the tin man [Wizard of Oz]). Right there is all the proof you need (though there is more) In the beginning there is no heart, no face, no arms or legs, no lungs – – I could go on and on, do you get the point? there is no human.

    In reference to you writing that I cannot comparre houses to humans, I regret that all my writing was for naught since you don’t seem to get what it is that’s being compared. Your doing that Hitler comparison I mentioned earlier where you’re not seeing the part I’m comparing. You’re totally missing what’s being compared. The point isn’t whether iIm guilty of homicide if I destroy the house. The point is that if I’m destroying the blueprints, or even the foundation, I’m not guilty of destroying the house. It’s impossible to destroy a house that doesn’t exist yet, just the same as it’s impossible to destroy a human being that doesn’t exist yet.
    I’ll admit that an abortion destroys the blueprints or maybe even the foundation of a living group of cells and thereby takes away the chance of that probably becomming a human being, but if the abortion is done early enough, it’s not killing a human being yet.
    Now I know I’m explaining this clearly enough for anyone to understand so if you can’t get it I can only assume it’s because a contrary belief set in your brain for too long a time, is preventing you from seeing the plain logic of this.

    Strong religious beliefs do have a tendency to block the mind’s ability to accept anything that contradicts those beliefs, no matter how obvious the logic is.

    Look at your own writing. Your using proof of a heart beat as proof that there is human life, and I even accept that. But you can’t extrapolate that a heart beat from an eight week old fetus is proof that there was a human there seven weeks ago. From a true scientific viewpoint that wouldn’t even prove there was a heart beat a day ago, or even an hour ago. Granted, there probably was, but without hearing it, you can’t state it as a fact. Science can state as a fact that there was no heart beat five days after insemination, or even ten or twenty. So if you want to bring forth an example showing there is a human being there immediatly after insemination, you have to come up with something better than a heart beat.

    In reference to your last sentence (before your question of my having kids which was answered as we crossed in the mail), you wrote:


    I assure you, I mean no insult or disrespect when I say, educate yourself a bit more about other religions as well as Christianity before making such bold statements.
    In lite of your claims, what makes Christianity better at beauty, creativity, purpose, and intrinsic value than, Judaisim, or Buddism, or Islam or Hinduism. I don’t claim to know too much about those religions but I’m willing to bet you don’t either and if that’s true then to meke the claim you’re making has about as much value as the guy who says, “I’ve lived in Chicago my whole life and it’s the best place to live” Well if he’s lived there his whole life, how on earth could he possibly know if it’s the best place to live?
    Out of respect to you I won’t call your comment stupid, I’ll just call the Chicago comment stupid.

    More about the beauty, creativity, purpose, and intrinsic value of Christianity. It is a fact of history that more wars have killed more people in the name of Christianity than for political reasons. Where is the beauty in that? As for creativity,every time there is war soldiers, usually from both sides, have their religious leaders (who for unknown reasons are willing to do it) bless their weapons that they are about to use to disobey the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill”. Now there’s creativity for you. As for purpose, I will gladly admit that the main purpose of Christianity is good and charitable ideologies, but that is true of all religions. That’s why they’re so inviting, most people have goodness in them (I like to believe) so of course they will then gravitate towards entities that promote goodness.


  36. Gunther,

    I respond quickly because it’s President’s Day and I have the day off. :)

    A few points.

    – I didn’t live with my wife before she was my wife. I’m a Christian, remember?
    – I do know a lot about other religions. I studied religion at a PUBLIC university, and I make it my business to keep up on what other religions believe.
    – Humans have to start somewhere, and because they start off so small, there can’t be a heart, lungs, face, hands, etc. Doesn’t mean it’s not “human.” It’s just very new, undeveloped human. I don’t know why that’s hard to understand. I bring up the destroying a house argument because if a man rapes and murders a woman and that woman was even two weeks pregnant, he will be charged with (and possibly convicted of) double homicide in a court of law!
    – Finally, the “Christianity has caused more wars than anything else” argument. That’s tired. I assume you speak of the Crusades, primarily? Christianity has never caused one war. Men who are sinful cause wars. Men who use God’s name in vain to kill other people cause wars. Just because someone wears a cross on their chest and says, “Kill the Muslims for God!” does not make them Christian. It makes them guilty of hate. (There are just wars–but that’s another argument.) By the way, here’s a website that talks about dozens of wars…none of which were started by “Christianity.”


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