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17 March 2011



Sidney O. Smith III

Here’s hoping Webb will bust a move, one way or the other. It is never too late.

But, more broadly speaking, if you want to know how a person will respond to a variety of scenarios in the Middle East, then, imo, consider asking such a person the following during an interview:

1. To respond to FB Ali’s recently posted essay at the Athenaeum.
2. To respond to the USS Liberty incident.

The two questions basically are a Rorschach test.

His or her answers will reveal much at several different levels, including, but certainly not limited to, one’s loyalty to the US when under pressure and one’s loyalty to the enlisted man when it is not popular to do so.

The responses, furthermore, will reveal strong indicators, one way or the other, as to whether a person is more interested in political advancement over true professionalism.

And, interestingly, one’s response to the USS Liberty incident also allows one to cull out anti-Semites. If someone supports the USS Liberty vets, then it is important for them to explain why they do so. The explanation, in and of itself, will give out all kinds of signals, one way or the other.

Just me -- and I am not military -- but, if I were headed to the Middle East for whatever reason, I would not trust anyone in uniform or civilian who would not take a stand, one way or the other, on the two questions above, but particularly on the USS Liberty incident. If a person won’t stand up for those on the USS Liberty and won’t stand up to the deep sixing of the flawed investigation by the USG…well…don’t expect such a person to be there if things got tough. Maybe. Maybe not. But I would make a mental note.

As for myself, the evidence is overwhelming the NCOI investigation was flawed and deep sixed and the GOI explanation was riddled with egregious inconsistencies. At a minimum, the investigation should be reopened, simply to lead to closure, one way or the other. The longer it stays repressed, so to speak, the worse for this country, imo.

 Charles I

Bravo Pat, Phil G. & SOS.

Be nice to cheer Jim Webb too. Hint. Hint.

All it takes is for men of good conscience to be silent.

Sidney my dear whatever does it all say about me the gibberish I spout. . .

different clue

Sidney Smith,

I can not imagine Senator Webb being afraid of
any body or any threat after what he has withstood in his life. I wonder if he is afraid on behalf of others, specifically afraid for people in the government and armed services who might be shamed and humiliated at having their part in the prevention of an effective investigation revealed. Also, he might be afraid for
those people or institutions
in government on whose behalf the lower or mid level deep-sixers of the investigation did the deep-sixing. That is just pure speculation on my part.

Sam Will




 Charles I

different clue, where does that leave us? The last considerate man of conscience can't speak until the last quiet man of conscience passes?



Can you and others keep posting the links to newhk blog. Can you provide a link to a video of the 'evidence'. That blog states:

"At the end of May 1999, a U.S.-Israeli search team, with the U.S. firm Nauticos as prime contractor, finally located the Dakar in 9500-feet of water between Cyprus and Crete. The Nauticos underwater robotic equipment used to find the Titanic was used to locate the Dakar. The Dakar was found on its original course, not off of Egypt as thought earlier by some searchers."

So someone went to the trouble to pay for all this and then didn't bother to even put up a cheap youtube post?


Dakar sub search site http://submarines.dotan.net/dakar/search/index.htm

 Charles I

Wow, 50 years of Israeli subs, hope we know where they all are.

Sidney O. Smith III

The Dakar as revenge theme has no credibility, certainly at this point. Someone earlier tried to foist this info under the name J. Bamford, who was not the J. Bamford. That in and of itself tells you all you need to know.

But of greater relevance and significance of the Dakar as revenge theme is the following: those who are promoting it are admitting the attack on the Liberty was intentional.

In other words, it’s tantamount to an admission. And, imo, one way to understand an admission when investigating any kind of case, certainly a murder case, is to incorporate the admission in brackets before the statement. It goes like this: [Yes, the attack on the Liberty was intentional but] the USN took out the Dakar as revenge.

If you really want to see some admissions, read the part of Rabin’s autobiography in which he justifies the attack on the Liberty. Just plug in the above referenced bracket before each sentence in his memoir re: USS Liberty incident. [Yes, the attack on the Liberty was intentional but]…

Say it ain’t so, Rabin…

I don’t know why Sen. Webb refuses to take a stand on the Liberty incident, one way or the other. It is disappointing, to say the least.

From what I can tell, you are assuming in your comment that Senator Webb believes the attack was intentional. If so, then look at how many have died because he hasn’t stepped forward.

And not only was he Secretary of the Navy, but also he is an officer of the court (Georgetown law, I believe). Prior to his becoming Sec. of the Navy, the US Naval Law Review published Lt. Commander Jacobsen’s article “A Juridical Examination of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty”.


Sen. Webb knew or should have known of this law review article when he was Secretary of the Navy. All he has to do is agree or disagree with its findings.

And, just as importantly, if Senator Webb has heretofore unknown information that suggests the attack was something less than intentional, then he is just as obligated to come forward, again, to put closure on the incident. If, for instance, he told Col. Lang this information confidentially and Col. Lang accepted it, then fine with me. I’ll tip my hat and even consider Oren’s words, “case closed”.

Regardless, if you take some time and investigate the incident, you will see, I believe, that those within the military who have stood up for the Liberty vets are more likely than not of the type who value the “uniform” above the self. And same with those in the intel community, (national security of the American people over “the self”) They all come across as extremely credible witnesses, but decide for yourself.

Again, a Congressional hearing is my recommendation, in line with the conclusion by Lt. Commander Jacobsen. Beyond that I cannot go because I do not access to the “record”.

But the evidence is overwhelming the USG deep sixed the NCOI, which was so flawed to begin with that Rear Admiral (then Captain) Merlin Staring refused to endorse the findings. Certainly, Rear Admiral Staring is man who valued the uniform over the “self”, thus making him very credible, imo. And he refused to sign off on the NCOI as “case closed”.

Sidney O. Smith III

Charles I, from the land of the one and only Diana Krall

Yes, it is my belief that had Sen. Webb taken a stand on the USS Liberty, one way or the other, he could have done immeasurable good for this nation and placed our nation on a different historical trajectory. He was the one politician who could have made a difference. Hence the disappointment.

If I remember correctly, when he was elected he stated he wanted to become the Daniel Moynihan of Virginia or some such.

Good grief…how hard is it to agree or disagree with a law review article at the US Naval Law Review? And, less we forget, he graduated from Annapolis and Georgetown law. And he is the one who mentions walking around Arlington National Cemetery to stay “ connected” and so on.

And, just as importantly, if Webb has some “secret” classified info that cannot be shared with the hoi polloi (including his Scot Irish of the South,), and such info shows the attack was a mistake or whatever, then all he need to do is meet Col. Lang for a cup of coffee in Alexandria and tell him. If Col. Lang then comes forward and says move on, then you know something is up because Col. Lang is already on the record about the USS Liberty incident.

Again, the USS Liberty incident is not going away. Just contrast the number of blog comments now re: the Liberty with the number of comments from a few years ago. The increase is exponential.

And with the geometrical increase, the odds for misinformation also becomes greater. So with that in mind, it is paramount, imo, that as more and more people discover the incident, then the following two aspects should be emphasized increasingly.

1. There were heroes within the military establishment and the USG who stood tall on the USS Liberty incident, so this aspect demonstrates that they saw their career as a vocation in which they were serving the American people.

In the not too distant future, there very well could be an extreme crisis of trust and confidence in the USM and USG, and when people read about what happened on the USS Liberty and how those enlisted men -- the hoi polloi again -- were treated, it will only confirm their suspicions.

So then it becomes absolutely critical that the American public is made aware of the heroes of this tragic story.

It is not good when civilians, including Webb’s Scot Irish crowd, come to the belief that some in the military sold out. Makes for a bad moon, arisin’ so steps should be taken to reveal the integrity of those within the USG.

Rear Admiral M. Staring in one such example. And there were others. Dave Lewis from Vermont -- an absolute genius -- is another example.

2. Steps need to be taken to ensure the Touro covenant stays in place. In part, because of AIPAC and a venal (and mainly Gentile) Congress, the vast majority of people associate Israeli actions with those of all Jews. It is a terrible misassumption, and one that Rabbi Teitelbaum warned us about decades ago. It really could lead to disastrous repercussions in the US.

So it is vitally important to refer to the courageous work of Weiss, Blumenthal, et al. And the list just keeps getting longer and longer.

 Charles I

And vitally important Sidney, that serious honourable Americans like you and Pat continue to take informed, principled, public positions.

From what I've learned about our host, I'm skeptical he would make any statement or reference on such a matter disclosed to him in confidence unless explicitly instructed, never mind merely free, to do so. In which case it would be salutary to hear such things from the horse's mouth.

The more people, Jewish or not, who at least discuss these and other matters the less currency the terrible misassumption would have. Hearteningly, that seems to be the trend,amongst the hoi polloi, if not the cognoscenti.

Only the truth from primary sources will ever resolve the issues, the investigation, official posture and policy since. I think we're as far from there as you fear we are close to "an extreme crisis of trust and confidence in the USM and USG."

My time spent here has certainly increased my trust and respect for the USM while eroding it for the USG.

GOI & IDF 2 for 2 in the wrong direction.



Thanks for the link, I found some additional info as well. All conclusions are of equipment malfunctions leading to the sinking.

Quoting the article: "Nauticos pulled up a piece of the 4-ton sub's sail, or vertical portion, and did an underwater forensic analysis. They determined that the Dakar sank in a diving accident after the torpedo room flooded, among other equipment malfunctions."
The Wikipedia entry looks like its been updated since the last time I looked (at least a year ago), I don't recall seeing this:

"Israel denied that the Dakar sank as the result of hostile action and stated that the Dakar was involved in crash diving exercises on its return voyage and was lost, probably as a result of a mechanical failure. On 25 April 1968, Vice Admiral Abraham Botzer, commander of the Israeli navy, stated that the Dakar sank on 24 January 1968, two days before being reported missing, due to "technical or human malfunctioning" and ruled out "foul play".

There's an interesting entry on Air independent propulsion, btw, worth the read.

Plenty of submarines have been lost by navies with more experience than Israel's:
USS Squalus, USS Thresher, USS Scorpion.
Russian Kursk; Then there is Pakistan's PNS Ghazi, South Africa's SS Constitution and so on. It's a dangerous occupation in the best of times.

Sidney O. Smith III

Charles I

My concern is that, increasingly, Americans believe, with good reason, they were lied to re: Iraq and Afghanistan and sold a bill of goods to the tune of several trillion dollars.

Of course, that said, it sure would have helped matters if civilians had taken war a bit more seriously back in 2002 instead of seeing it as some kind of action adventure film ginned up by the Diane Christiansen’s of the msm (character in the film Network, Judy Miller type), along with Jacobins who are the last ones to actually fight a war.

And, now, a few years later, these same Americans are hurting economically while they know the Pentagon-DC crowd continues to live high, and all off their dime.

So you are starting to see people like hard working auto mechanics, who are trying to raise a family, roll their eyes when Petraeus is on television. And that is not in their nature. I am not talking about the code pink crowd.

With that in mind, it is critically important, imo, to show Americans that there are people in the military who see their career as a vocation, and they are not like those military talking heads on cnn, fox, etc.

As an example, I don’t think that Carafano guy at the National journal is connected to what is going on in US. And your hard working auto mechanic will see it from the get go.

Senator Webb, who undoubtedly was a war hero in VN, could have gone a long way in conveying to the American people the idea of a military career as a vocation by taking a stand on the Liberty. And by doing so, he could have saved countless lives, imo, or certainly had given the Liberty incident a much needed resolution, one way or the other.

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