all 147 comments


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[–]Burningheart1978 237 points238 points  (53 children)

Yes. Let’s run down quickly why;

  • MaRey Sue (excellent melee fighter, can pilot the Millennium Falcon with no apparent preknowledge, can fix / alter the Falcon with no apparent preknowledge, uses apparently advanced Force Powers with no training, capable lightsaber wielder with no training and this is just the first film)

  • What happened to Coruscant? Why is there Empire 2.0 when the Empire was defeated? Who are the Resistance resisting? If it’s Empire 2.0 why isn’t the New Republic involved as they arose because of Empire 1.0’s defeat?

  • Who is Snoke; who is this guy who undid ALL the accomplishments of the heroes? This isn’t a blank slate like the OT, this is a sequel and gaps aren’t being filled in!

  • No-one, but no-one wanted a story set 30 years later where the heroes ALL failed, regressed in character development, went their separate ways and all die one by one as the same beats from the Original Trilogy are recycled. Badly.

[–]vegetaman 126 points127 points  (22 children)

What happened to Coruscant?

Baffling the new movies don't go here, or really show much of the worlds of the galaxy. This is something that the prequels did -- they made the Star Wars universe feel larger.

[–]skunimatrix 56 points57 points  (8 children)

That the one thing that got me about TFA. It was a fun movie, but I spent the first half of it trying to figure out what the hell happened between ROJ and TFA. Apparently there were some books that explained it poorly, but that was something that needed to be addressed in the opening crawl or with a couple minutes of exposition early in the film. It could have seen something Han explained to the characters, and the audience, while on the Falcon.

If you go back to ANH in the scene with Tarkin and his staff + Vader where Tarkin informs them that the Senate has been dissolved it made it seem like there was a galaxy spanning empire that had taken over from the "Republic" and not something that had happened overnight. The Roman Republic didn't transform into the Roman Empire overnight either. One could say that the prequels had a little too much of this over taxation and trade rights.

Then the whole "Super-Duper Deathstar" *eye-roll* plus all the new characters being whiny Emos.

My wife walked out of RoS asking "I want to know more about that General Pride guy, who was he during the Empire?"

I've said that they needed a Thrawn like character who bests the New Republic or Resistance in the first two films. You could have shown that for all their best intentions the New Republic quickly fell victim to the corrupting forces that had hollowed out the Republic and Empire leaving people jaded. Del Toro's character in TLJ was the only thing I really found interesting when he shows Finn & Rose that the arms dealers don't care. The greater everyman of the Galaxy don't care. To them it's "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". And it makes sense as you have beings who have witnessed the fall of the Republic, rise and fall of the Empire, rise and fall of the New Republic, then rise of the First Order. Couple that with a Luke who instead of fleeing the Galaxy because he almost killed Kylo in his sleep to Luke out in the Unknown Regions trying to find a disturbance in the force he sensed and then came upon the First Jedi Temple, read the text, and starts to rethink some things about the Jedi Order and that could have been an interesting story that went somewhere, disrupted expectations, but did so in a way that somewhat made sense.

[–]vegetaman 32 points33 points  (7 children)

You nailed it with the Tarkin comment. The only non-Jedi with any real power to fear and intimidate people in the entire Star Wars saga seems to have been Tarkin. I'll pull over this post I made a few days ago:

Seriously. Name one other character in the entire 9 movie span that has that kind of evil staying power and resolve and threatening presence. A perfect bad guy for A New Hope. And honestly, maybe that's what makes Rogue One so good to me, is the Tarkin vs. Krennic relationship. Sure, Vader is there in those two films, but he isn't really running the show -- he's a side character. Even though he isn't really there for the whole film, even Empire has Boba Fett and General Veers. ROTJ doesn't really have an equal in that regard.

Then look at the ST. We have... Hux. Who, while acted well, was given a worse role in every film. Captain Kanady in TLJ who was the best stab at an OG Imperial in ever (so we quickly fixed that problem) and I wish we had more of him. Kanady was like the General Veers character in Empire (he came to kick ass and chew bubblegum and was obviously extremely competent), except he lost.

Then look back to the PT and we definitely don't have it (but the narrative is crowded with lots of Jedi).

Solo was on the right track but I didn't get the big bad feel out of anything. No really memorable Tarkin, Veers, Boba Fett or Krennic type character. I mean, General Pryde in the new movie felt like an attempt to capture that type of character, but I just didn't feel it. It felt forced. I would've preferred a Thrawn character (introduced in 8 maybe) or a literal OG Imperial (like... cough Veers?) come back to serve The Emperor. And it had to be introduced before the final act!

I feel like Kylo Ren was working overtime trying to carry the ST on his back without a solid Tarkin-esque wingman.

[–]metnavman 16 points17 points  (2 children)


And completely drops it on it's ass when he throws a 8-year old temper-tantrum before the 1st movie is even over.

[–]Oxideist 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Temper tantrums are his primary character development.

[–]Latenius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But....that's Kylo Ren. The man who hates his upbringing, while never being able to be half that of which he idolizes. It's a great character, especially in a sequel story.

[–]OMEOW_COMICS 2 points3 points  (1 child)


Maul and Grievous, not to mention the Senate himself. Krennic was not in the "Skywalker saga" but he was a good villain who fits your description too.

[–]vegetaman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah yes, Krennic was great.

[–]StarsOfGaming 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Hello. Normally Sequel Trilogy Apologist Here, just going to say. Instead of a Thrawn like character, it was actually bloody thrawn. He appears in Rebels, then gets yeeted of so he can’t effect the original trilogy. Of course, it then creates a conflict because of the fact rebels didn’t finish until after TLJ. It’s certain he couldn’t have appeared in TFA as it has gone in real life, it just wasn’t in the works at that point. But the fact Thrawn seems to have 0 relevance for literally like what, 35 years as it currently appears, honestly does serve as a disappointment. Which could have been somewhat prevented if he, idk, served to also help build the First Order during that period.

[–]vegetaman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Indeed. Thrawn would have be interesting (also, an Alien in the main enemy command structure would be cool). And could've come in easily in TFA/TLJ.

[–]Burningheart1978 36 points37 points  (2 children)

I guess that the hack Abrams was trying to replicate the “outlying” feel of the galaxy the OT had.

As always, he made the wrong choice.

Johnson, of course, simply didn’t give a flying fuck about actual Star Wars.

[–]lunch77 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Yep. JJ tried and failed to imitate the originals.

Rian’s movie functioned like he’d never even seen a Star Wars Film.

[–]Oxideist 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't be surprised if RJ just sparknotes'd the OT and then admitted in a few years that he didn't actually watch it because he felt it was "too boring."

[–]21lives 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Expected to see even a passing shot of Coruscant and Naboo when “the entire galaxy” rose up. Nope. Endor and Bespin. Cool shots, but you couldn’t spare another 30 seconds? Really?

[–]asscop99 4 points5 points  (3 children)

It was destroyed in TFA

[–]vegetaman 6 points7 points  (2 children)

That was Hosnian Prime.

[–]21lives 6 points7 points  (1 child)

And THIS for me, the explanation expanded upon in a book, and the general lack of cohesive story and consistency in this galaxy.. is my issue.

Did we even see a twilek this entire time?

It felt like another galaxy completely.

[–]ButIDontWana -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Or Bothans...?

[–]caliban969 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is probably the thing I hate most about the sequels, they are fundamentally uninterested in worldbuilding or expanding the universe beyond what was shown in the OT.

[–]Latenius 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For everything people hate about the prequels, they really do make the universe large and interesting as fuck. Sure, the dialogue is cringy at times and the movies undermine aspects of the OT, but the prequels made kid me think that this was the realest scifi universe there is.

[–]wtf_is_a_right_hook 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nope! All you get is Cantobyte and Hoth with some red in it.

[–]greywolfau 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Principal Snoke : What are you rebelling against? Student Lisa Rey : Whatcha got?

[–]ARTIFICIAL_SAPIENCE 2 points3 points  (19 children)

I have no problem with Rey. Her skill as a pilot and mechanic just fit with her position in the story. Luke was the best bush pilot of the Outer Rim! Guy couldn't get permission to leave his farm, but apparently dicking around in his T-16 in spare time made him a fantastic space fighter. Anakin built droids that lasted for decades as an elementary schooler. And could win races that typically required you to be an alien with more arms. It was dumb, but it's established.

And thinking this was the Skywalker saga, I knew she had to have come from that fam... shit.

[–]TheMangalo 34 points35 points  (4 children)

Rey having skills is fine; I've always held that you can have a character start at any level of skill, but to make them interesting you need them to struggle.

Luke was a good pilot, but really, that was all he was. The amount of times he needed his ass saved even up to RoTJ needs to be counted on two hands and two feet. Nothing he did was accomplished on his own, and he got himself into trouble a lot

Rey just gets herself out of trouble, she's never in any real danger, not really, excluding maybe the confrontation with Snoke.

[–]lunch77 32 points33 points  (2 children)

Yeah except for Luke being a phenomenal pilot, in all three movies he felt consistently out of his element in a lot of situations, which creates tension.

I never once felt Rey was ever in danger.

[–]TheMangalo 19 points20 points  (1 child)

And even then, Luke still got blasted out of the sky the second time we see him in the cockpit, and that's after he's been flying for rogue group for a few years.

[–]lunch77 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Luke never felt perfect, even when he faced Vader for the last time he tried to strike The Emperor down and his dad got the best of him a few times in the throne room fight.

[–]Oxideist 24 points25 points  (1 child)

That's horseshit and you know it.

Rey salvaged dusted up ISD's, that's no way to learn electro-mechanical engineering and she'd never piloted anything but her land speeder. That's like going from a motorcycle to an F-15 and just knowing how to do it somehow. She's not a mechanic or a pilot yet she just knows how to do it. She even tells Finn that she had never flown a damn thing in her life after their TIE confrontation.

Luke was fixing droids from a young age and flew his T-16 (a craft built by the manufacturers of the X-wing and had identical controls) through canyons for years sharp shooting womp rats. He'd had the perfect mix of training to make him a trench run candidate. Coincidence? Sure, but at least it's established beforehand.

Everything Rey does can be followed with "and how does she know how to do this shit?" With the answer being "because the writers wanted her to." She's got no reason to be good at any of it and she never struggles or fails, and never needs help. She's just always perfect all the time because apparently that's a compelling character now? Who knows.

[–]raunchyavocadonew user 32 points33 points  (9 children)

rey was a scrapjunker not a pilot or mechanic, and it was especially never established that she was that amazing at it, she is piloting the MF better than han ever did and to make matters even worse she is doing it without a copilot!

It was like if the first time you drive a car it was in the middle of a Formula 1 race and you ended up winning the thing for like 5 lapses

[–]Burningheart1978 10 points11 points  (0 children)

What skill as a pilot and mechanic? How did she get these skills? Nothing is mentioned.

She’s a desert scavenger, which is miles away from being a mechanic, which miles away again from being a pilot. Can you imagine your local scrapyard dealer being able to hop into the cockpit of an F22 and fly it competently immediately?

and before you say “she crashed the rim of the ship” let me remind you she goes from that to advanced evasive manoeuvres and trick piloting in literally minutes

[–]fantomen777 7 points8 points  (0 children)


No it make no sense, Rey is a excellent mecanic, way is she working as a starving scrap salvage insted of a well paid mecanic? She is not a debt slave, there are no hint of a guild, union or cast system that prevent here from being a mecanic....

Anakin built droids that lasted for decades as an elementary schooler.

and he have it very good (materially) for being a slave....

[–]lousy_writerrussian bot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What happened to Coruscant?

Be happy that you don't know it.

Rumors is that originally JJA wanted to bomb Coruscant instead of Hosnian (that's why the planet looks suspiciously similar) but that got veto'd by some higher ups.

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        [–]Burningheart1978 8 points9 points  (3 children)

        And you’re blatantly trolling.

        plenty of other lack-of-training moments with Anakin and Luke

        False. Luke was constantly referred to as a good pilot in ANH. Anakin was marvelled at in TPM as an exceptional human for podracing.

        say the force filled in the blanks and made it work somehow. That's how it's always been

        False. Skill with the Force needs to be learned and it’s shown to have limitations.

        Coruscant is just a location, which was not featured at all

        False. It was built up heavily by the prequels and retroactively inserted in the special editions as it became a big part of SW mythos. As it was the capital before the Empire knowing it’s fate after the Empire is important.

        Who was the emperor in the originals.

        Didn’t matter, as the OT was a blank canvas. It only matters in the PT as the rise to power IS the story. Similarly Snoke matters as TFA is a sequel, not a blank canvas, and he has done big things.

        Having it set 30 years later is exactly what Lucas plan was all along with an aged Luke, which Hammil confirmed in an early 80s interview

        Not what I said.

        A new generation was always in the plans, and the prequels and original trilogies show how the previous heros takes a backseat supporting role.

        Not what I said.

        Other materials can reveal who Snoke was

        False. TROS revealed it. So are you simply a troll? Looks like it.

        [–]the_jp -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

        no not trolling. just not taking the movies as seriously and avoiding being a hypocrite in how I judge the saga overall.

        Rey was a pilot in the Force Awakens - suborbital mind you, as was Luke. Rey also piloted a speeder. Rey was already a mechanic and knew the ins and outs of Emperial Star ships. The force can enhance that stuff as it did with Luke and Anakin.

        You assume too much about the force and don't know everything there is to know.

        The capital could and probably was moved elsewhere if I recall correctly. It was not vital to know. Your complaint is superficial. Not everything was explained in the original trilogy about the politics. Your complaint is also hypocritical.

        Other materials can go more in depth on Snoke.

        Your complaints are not that important. It would have been nice to see this stuff better explored and explained. But Star Wars has always been episodic in format where we are constantly being dropped into a new strange world where it is assumed this stuff is explained elsewhere.

        [–]Burningheart1978 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        no not trolling

        Another lie. I’ll feed you no more; go back under your bridge.

        [–]the_jp -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        You failed to show anything of substance to demonstrate the saga or its characters were ruined. You have every right not to like it. Two different matters.

        [–]GeneralKenobi05consume don't question 64 points65 points  (5 children)

        At the very best the JJ cut provides fan service for the Prequel fans who’ve basically been shitted on by Disney from day one. Other than that I have no interest in it

        [–]TheOneThatCameEasyi'm a skywalker too! 32 points33 points  (4 children)

        I follow lots of prequel fans (duh, I am one) on twitter and the trend literally got started cause they wanted to see Anakin and Obi Wan in the movie.

        That's the only value of JJ's cut. That and denying annoying Reylos their kiss.

        [–]GeneralKenobi05consume don't question 13 points14 points  (3 children)

        Oh the kiss isn’t in it? I’ll actually support the release of the JJ cut just to see them meltdown along with Anakin and Obi

        [–]TheOneThatCameEasyi'm a skywalker too! 10 points11 points  (2 children)

        If it's real, which I doubt, then there would be no kiss.

        [–]cgc402 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        Exec Ryan from “Pitch Meeting”: Make them kiss.

        [–]Oxideist 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Super easy in fact, barely an inconvenience.

        [–]Deggit 66 points67 points  (5 children)

        It's so predictable how fans go through the same cycle of denial & bargaining when movies flop.

        • There's a director's cut in a vault somewhere that fixes everything! / The Fan Edit will fix it! No, editing a movie to censor the most fan-offending elements (like Jar Jar or Tauriel's love triangle or Legolas's Mario jump or Luke's lightsaber throw or the Barrel-riding scene) is a futile project that always only ends up revealing that the problem with these failed movies is inevitably larger and more structural than one bad character or one cringey scene. The main problem with TPM is the plot makes no sense and there's no protagonist; editing out Jar Jar doesn't fix that. The main problem with the Hobbit movies is that they're not Bilbo's story; editing the trilogy down to a 3 hour megafilm doesn't fix that. The main problem with the sequels is that they're a mishmash of Star Wars Stuff that doesn't have the courage to invest in a new story for its new characters; editing out the Alien Milk shot doesn't change that.

        • It's bad because the actors hated it! No, it's bad because it's bad. A one second gif of Conleth Hill throwing his script on the table in apparent disgust does not convince me that Game Of Thrones S8 is bad. Seeing Game Of Thrones S8 and watching the Varys character bumble his way to death convinced me of that. People way over-invest in actors' opinions of movies because actors are celebrities and because viewers develop parasocial relationships with them through their characters. Game Of Thrones would still have been a trainwreck if Conleth Hill, Emilia Clarke and everyone else had loved working on it. Actors are talent executing the vision of the writer and director. Nobody really knows how a movie will land until they see the rough cut or the theatrical cut. Actors speaking out about this film only underlines the fact that ROS turned out different from what they were told about where their characters were headed circa TFA. But none of that is surprising because we already know most of ROS was a last minute ass pull. John Boyega's visible dissatisfaction doesn't mean there's an amazing JJ Cut sitting in a safe, it means Finn didn't get to do anything meaningful or impactful in these movies after TFA. Hey, I already knew that from watching TLJ and ROS.

        [–]Im_Your_Boomerberry 20 points21 points  (3 children)

        You should be an online critic. I'm not sure people want to hear the truth anymore though.

        You're saying what needs to be said though. 'Fans' are part of the problem.

        [–]lunch77 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        While poor editing CAN make a good film bad,

        TYPICALLY- it’s more likely a bad movie will stay bad than be fixed in editing.

        [–]Im_Your_Boomerberry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        It always starts with the writing first. We give actors WAY too much credit.

        [–]Frog_and_Toadrussian bot 8 points9 points  (0 children)


        Good point. We love to sift through actor's statements and opinions, but in reality they mean little.

        [–]nick_nastardlyi'm a skywalker too! 37 points38 points  (1 child)

        Let's assume that story is true.

        All Disney did was take a bad idea and make it worse.

        [–]lunch77 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        Yeah people are acting like the JJ Cut will magically be as good as the OT but sometimes less shit is still shit

        [–]PendraMer 53 points54 points  (10 children)

        JJ started the whole thing downhill with TFA but he magically has this cut of TROS that fixes everything? Oh hell, no.

        [–]SENDME-YOURNIPPLE 33 points34 points  (7 children)

        Exactly. The ST was fucked by the opening crawl of the first movie. “The First Order reigns supreme. Leia leads a tiny Resistance.” What? Huh?

        [–]JonoLFC 17 points18 points  (6 children)

        That’s what did it for me. As soon as i realised the bad guys were technically running shit and we had rebellion vs the empire again i checked out. If only i knew just how bad it would get

        [–]lunch77 7 points8 points  (5 children)

        That was the first red flag. I remember saying I wouldn’t negatively judge the movie until I get two more.

        Poe’s first line being Marvel humor was my second. I think about ten or so jumped up right after so I had a third real quick.

        [–]JonoLFC 9 points10 points  (4 children)

        Yeah i can still remember midnight release for TFA the whole time just doing mental gymnastics convincing myself the movie was good. Then afterwards did more to tell myself that the next 2 could fix it.

        And then we all know how 8 and 9 went. Now i just find it fun to laugh at them :P

        We’ve always got the original 3 masterpiece movies and the 3 fun but largely flawed PT, as long as we ignore the ST as canon that is

        [–]lunch77 2 points3 points  (3 children)

        As a longtime original trilogy fan and prequel hater, I also had enormous cognitive dissonance. “Oh, besides copying the plot to A New Hope, it was really good! Wasn’t like the prequels, it had practical effects, felt more like the originals, good acting, dialogue and directing! When we get an original plot in the next movie, it’s gonna be awesome and the next one even better!”

        I had cognitive dissonance after The Last Jedi. “Well...it feels like MCU Star Wars...nothing cool that The Force Awakens promised happened...but I guess it was original and daring!”

        After repeat viewings of both films and The Rise of Skywalker’s release, I realized the prequels were Citizen Kane compared to this garbage. I was a god damned fool.

        [–]JonoLFC 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        Ahahah damn dude literally the same! I despised the prequels for so long until seeing ROS and realised, yeah they are still shit movies on a lot of levels, but they are far and away more “Star Wars” than the Disney Trilogy.

        Unless something drastic changes i dont think we’re ever going to get another ACTUAL Star Wars movie :(

        [–]lunch77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        If they get their heads out of their asses and give The Mandalorian crew some Star Wars movies, I think they’ll get them right.

        [–]Frog_and_Toadrussian bot 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        Desperate fans will cling to desperate theories. The whole sequel trilogy has fallen apart and people are looking for ways to salvage it.

        For the first two films, people made up theories about how things could be fixed in the next film. Now they have to speculate about some mystery cut that was never released.

        [–]Clonecommder 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I don’t think the idea is that it will magically fix it all but rather the movie’s pacing would make it nicer to watch and may have some cool new scenes

        [–]N1COLAS13 24 points25 points  (6 children)

        It all went downhill since TFA for me, TFA killed off the successes of the OT heroes. Rogue One is the only Disney SW movie I've been able to enjoy.

        It's not just the trash plot, either, these movies just don't feel like SW. the atmosphere, aliens, planets, the way they talk, none of it is StarWarsy to me. Rogue One captured the feeling best imo, it actually felt like a movie set in the SW universe.

        It's a huge shame bc personally the 'feel' is a big part of this franchise for me, I want to escape to a GFFA and these movies just don't sweep you away like that.

        [–]lunch77 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        TFA’s not as offensively bad as TROS or TLJ to me, but it still commits the cardinal sin of rebooting the entire progress of six Star Wars movies into oblivion, among all the other issues with the script.

        [–]MontyAtWork 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        The DT trilogy feels to me like Aaron Sorkin stuff does - where everything's too slick and every character interaction seems predetermined instead of things happening to characters and them reacting/responding to them as they would.

        A great example is Luke. We've seen and known Luke for so long that when we saw the lightsaber chuck and him being a hermit, we felt Luke would never do that.

        Now think about Rey or Poe or Finn. Can you think of anything where, in extended media, people would be asking/arguing that those characters wouldn't do something because it's outside of who we know the character to be? At this point, any of these characters could do anything.

        Finn becoming a dark side Jedi because Rey never loved him back? Sure, sounds plausible. Rey is actually a lesbian? Sure, because if a brother and sister can kiss in the OT then ReyLo kissing doesn't mean anything about the characters either. Poe is actually a secret agent the whole movie trying to sabotage everything? Well, we made Han a cowardly deadbeat dad who gets surprise-killed during a hug with his evil son who's cosplaying as his literally-Hitler grandpa.

        There's just nothing about the motivations with any of these characters. I just don't know what the characters were doing before the movies start showing us. I don't see in my mind's eye what they're doing between movies.

        In the first moments with Han in the OT we can tell what he's been doing for a long time before we saw him - jobs for money in seedy underbellies the Galaxy over, with a dash of womanizing, drinking, brawling and killing (defensively).

        Now Poe. What's he doing. I don't even know what he's doing in this trilogy other than... piloting ships? And suddenly we're shown he was kinda doing some seedy work with a whole band of people we never know about or hear about? This should have been something we definitely knew about beforehand, or it should have been shocking because we thought he wouldn't do that and then be shown why he actually would/did. But again, we have no sense of what Poe would or wouldn't do so none of it matters and it just happens to him, just happens to us as the audience.

        We don't have characters experiencing the events of the story, we have caricatures reacting to events.

        [–]ButIDontWana 1 point2 points  (3 children)

        And even then, R1 scrapped the whole Bothan angle to the theft of the Death Star plans, which killed a whole lot of interesting side stories the ST could have benefited from.

        TFA killed Star Wars hard though; instead of Mara Jade and the Yuuzhan Vong we got that shit?

        [–]Superbrainz-for-Dayz 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Ah, yes, the Yuuzhan Vong, the most popular and well liked Star Wars characters.

        [–]ButIDontWana 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Still better than TFA, TLJ, or ROS imo

        At least they were somewhat interesting :/

        I have a hard time finding redeeming value in any portion of the last 3 movies except the CGI

        [–]sandalrubber 18 points19 points  (7 children)

        It's like Man of Steel. The problems began with the first film in the series and it's never escaped, only digging itself deeper. (DC Films only "escaped" by giving up on team-up movies so the shared universe is effectively over even if elements remain.) The first film in the series already steered the universe in an undesirable direction and it was a weak foundation to build on. Just as TFA made the OT pointless and thus everything else including itself pointless too, Man of Steel bungled Superman's origin, altruistic motivations (and motivators) and "first day", and set the downbeat, distrustful tone of the next movies. But it took a lot of heat for that unlike TFA. Most DC fans didn't want to see Superman snapping someone's neck on screen, let alone help cause/not do enough to prevent all that destruction (or to see the questionable treatment of Pa Kent, arguably just as critical). In contrast, many SW fans wanted to wait and see where the story took Luke, though I for one already gave up. The midnight murder attempt in TLJ was the necksnapping equivalent.

        [–]Deggit 48 points49 points  (6 children)

        a lot of fans are still under the impression that TLJ contains "the moment" that ruined the trilogy's prospects. Mostly they fixate on one dumb scene like:

        • the Yo Mama joke
        • Luke drinking alien milk
        • Luke throwing away the lightsaber
        • the Holdo Maneuver
        • Snoke being unceremoniously axed mid-movie

        IMO that trilogy-killing moment is very clearly none of these, it's in TFA, it's the moment where StarKillerBase blows up the New Republic. With one fell swoop JJ resets the entire story to the status quo of Empire vs Rebels. With that one moment JJ already set up that Leia is a failure who didn't protect the New Republic, Luke is a failure who didn't train new Jedi and a coward who didn't come back when he sensed the New Empire, the entire ending of ROTJ is erased, etc. The way it played out across the next two films may have been what it took for fans to gradually realize the sequel storyline is shit, but TFA is the movie that actually pulls the trigger on that story beat. After that, seeing Grumpy Recluse Luke in the flesh was just a formality; seeing Leia mope around the Rebel Base for two more movies with nothing to do was just a formality; even seeing Palpatine resurrected was just a formality. People say that TLJ is the movie that gave Star Wars nowhere else to go but return to the originals, but TFA is the movie that starts out establishing some great new characters in a new universe and then can't figure out what to do with the original cast so it pretends ESB and ROTJ never happened: Han goes back to being a smuggler, Leia is the leader of a non-explained "Resistance" and Luke is shoved off stage so that we don't have to deal emotionally with the magnitude of his failure until TLJ.

        [–]Im_Your_Boomerberry 13 points14 points  (0 children)

        LOL, you must have typed this a few times on the internets before because it is a perfect summary. Excellent writing.

        It all started with the first one.

        [–]jobiwankenob 7 points8 points  (0 children)

        This is an excellent summary. Let’s upvote the fuck out of it.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)


          [–]Deggit 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          I'd say, ignoring the opening crawl for a moment, the Sequel universe is full of promise until they get to the Falcon. The opening on Jakku is classic Star Wars movie makin' magic until the Falcon scene. It goes downhill from there rapidly through the Rathtar scene and then the firing of StarKillerBase is what sets the horribly stupid stakes of this trilogy. I think the pacing of TFA is also why the trilogy has failed to translate to international audiences. It's a pretty good adventure movie until some old man and his pet walking carpet show up and you're supposed to care that he completely derails the middle third of the movie and what the main characters are trying to achieve, and then his death is supposed to be a hugely emotional moment even though the main characters have known him for an afternoon. There's a reason China checked out of Star Wars. The old-trilogy characters are given bit parts (seriously - does Leia do anything in this trilogy?) yet are treated with the reverence of treasured icons. They should either have been MAIN characters (which would have been horrible like Crystal Skull) or they should have been kept more in the background, at least until the sequels actually hooked audiences on their own merits.

          [–]100percentwitchnew user 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Bravo. This is a fucking perfect summary.

          [–]CollumMcJingleballs 15 points16 points  (0 children)

          The JJ Cut ain't saving nothing from this garbage ass trilogy, I'm baffled that was the take away from that post anyway, and would only exist to prove that they wasted a lot of time for a bunch of actors who showed up in costume to be force ghosts. That's it. Magically hoping for a release of some cut like that ain't fixing any issues if they started with TFA and TLJ

          [–]Im_Your_Boomerberry 12 points13 points  (1 child)

          Get 'The JJ Cut' out of your heads. It is the healthiest thing to do. It is a diversion. Focus on the steaming pile they actually signed, sealed and delivered to you.

          [–]Cowgineernew user 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I think "The JJ Cut" is, indeed, a diversion. I argue it doesn't even exist.

          [–]MazrimtheDark 10 points11 points  (1 child)

          Yes, and not just TLJ and RoS. TFA started this whole mess with the Empire 2.0, Death Star 2.0, Darth Vader wannabe, Han being a bum and a MaRey Sue nuChosen One.

          [–]lunch77 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Force Awakens is basically New Hope 2.0, so yeah.

          [–]Raddhical00 23 points24 points  (1 child)

          That would be a resounding YES. Abrams is a low-tier filmmaker and a first-rate hack, whether this is true or not (which I heavily doubt too). So it's not as if he could salvage anything.

          Besides, this is TRoS all over again before the movie was released, when lots of people kept asking if this film could save the entire trilogy.

          Anyone with a functioning brain knows that you can't save a 3-act story when the first 2 acts have been terrible. It's just not humanly possible. Especially for a hack who might just need to plant this kind of rumor to save face (assuming this isn't true).

          [–]lunch77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          He seems to be a fine director, I actually like the look of a lot of his movies. But I’ve never liked the shit he’s written. Armageddon was badly written, Mission Impossible 3 is so smarmy and self importantly try hard, Super 8 is a Spielberg rip off, we all agree on how bad TFA and TROS are too.

          [–]vegetaman 24 points25 points  (1 child)

          If you pretend the entire sequel trilogy doesn't exist; nothing of value is lost.

          [–]lunch77 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          Rarely do I ever say online fans could write a better movie than the studio since typically fa fiction is garbage but this sub could have written a better sequel trilogy than that evil greedy mouse.

          [–]dashrendar4483 11 points12 points  (0 children)

          Yes, we can. It's shit, all of it.

          Trying to wag fingers at one single culprit and magically believing some JJ cut will polish a turd into a great trilogy doesn't change that the ST tried to grow on a rotten swamp of cheap nostalgia and cardboard characters resetting the OT to zero.

          [–]PenXSword 9 points10 points  (0 children)

          There's no way any cut of any of the movies will fix what is fundamentally broken about the series. The concept was broken from the very beginning, and it's only gotten worse. Granted, I wouldn't mind a release, if only for those who have actually enjoyed the movies, but it can't "fix" Star Wars. The sequels can't be "saved", and I'd rather they just be quietly put to rest and forgotten.

          [–]SolidStone1993 7 points8 points  (2 children)

          It was doomed from the start when it retconned the happy ending of the OT. This trilogy shouldn’t have even been a “sequel” trilogy.

          [–]DonDoveboyega's boy 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          In th future, this trilogy is going to be called the "bad timeline" one, where the ROTJ ending somehow went wrong on 30 years.

          [–]SolidStone1993 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          DT = Disney Trilogy = Darkest Timeline.

          [–]MuddyPillowssalt miner 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          yes it’s probably bad either way. maybe its actually decent as a 3 hour movie. maybe it’s worse.

          but I think it’s kinda weird that we hear about LucasFilm fucking with both of JJs movies yet RJ got free reign over TLJ.

          [–]daytrippern7 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          All this JJ Cut stuff feels like a trap to me. Admittedly I don’t care much for it as I suspect it wouldn’t be a vast improvement, if true course.

          Reading all this something still feels off with it , something isn’t right. Too much bullshit has gone on for me to get on board or believe the media are simply reporting a story.

          [–]BonelessSkinlessthis was what we waited for? 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          Massive garbage. And just like the zack snyder cut bs this will fade too. Just disappointing all around, really

          [–]PainStorm14 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          Thank you for saying this

          I am sick of people imagining how somehow some non-existent version of TROS will fix the shitstorm that was TLJ

          And keep in mind that shills are already circling the wagons around TLJ again and using TROS backlash to whitewash Johnson's crap

          Always remember: Star Wars died with Holdo manoeuvre

          [–]az0064salt miner 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          This is the way

          [–]Taurus3060 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          I rolled my eyes at the idea of a "JJ Cut." Does that include a TFA recut that doesn't have all the major characters fail off screen?

          I have no doubt that Disney heavily meddled with RoS, and maybe the experience sucked for JJ. I'm not celebrating that. But all of the basic ideas of this entire trilogy have just been trash, and it all started with TFA.

          [–]NinjaNard_ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          I just want justice, I want a lot of people to lose their jobs. Really at this point I just want this franchise to go into hiding on a remote planet and bide its time with a large but content fanbase enjoying what they always have for years and staying out of the corrupt hollywood mainstream politically-correct spotlight. They really canceled Clone Wars for Rebels, spent billions of dollars on creating and advertising a new trilogy based on a priceless franchise above their emotional intelligence and paygrade, and drove it into the ground of no return. Its impossible to headcanon all this new content and lore out of the way for too many wounds have been made in fans and within the fanbase from these movies and content, as well as plenty of salt to rub in to fill in those cuts and crevices. Forever will these wounds will hurt with the salt and tears reminding of and bringing back pain. And even when these wounds heal there will be tons of scars to be reminders.

          Basically what I am saying is that the damage is done. Star Wars is too sour or at least bittersweet in the mouth for anyone to take part in, whether it be the perspective of a stockholder or a casual fan. These so called sequel movies along with their salty history and backstory will forever be engrained and remembered by all true fans and will eventually be documented as a total utter cinematic failure, maybe even the biggest and worst example in the industry for later generations to learn from, hell we are already doing that now.

          Disney has ruined star wars in all aspects that can be interpreted objectively and subjectively. There is no changing history or those facts; we truly live in a cursed timeline.

          [–]troy626 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          This is like the whole Snyder cut crap, the film is still crap

          [–]Frog_and_Toadrussian bot 3 points4 points  (0 children)



          [–]Fallen_Walrus 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          The only JJ cut I want is the one where the emperor is Jar Jar Binks and confirms he was a sith all along.

          [–]shortroundshotaro 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          1) We (not all of us, but many of us) already knew the moment we walked out of the theater of TLJ that the Episode 9 was going to be a huge disaster. And it happened.

          2) You can call it meddling or you can call it supervising. There is nothing inherently wrong with giving the director less leeway and someone higher up micromanaging the overall production to ensure a proper quality control. We understand the problem has been the LACK of it from the beginning.

          3) We can’t tell which version makes more sense (or makes less nonsense). Maybe (and most likely) JJ cut retains the same problems as the actual version.

          Still, I have to admit that the leak made me feel sympathetic for JJ. If it’s true, it shows the management of DT has always been a huge mess a huge mess ever since the acquisition and destined to fail.

          [–]TheRevanchist127 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          It wouldn’t have fixed the issues from TFA and TLJ or the lack of an overarching story, but I think it would have been a marked improvement. Still wouldn’t have been perfect, but I feel like the characters would make a little more sense.

          [–]Menthol-Blackthis was what we waited for? 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I still stand by enjoying TFA, it was better than both I and II to me, but TLJ actually killed my enjoyment of Star Wars. And after the leaks and subsequent release of TRoS I’m not even gonna bother seeing it and i agree no director cut could fix that. All I can stomach is the stuff from pre-Disney now and even that “tastes like ashes in my mouth” so to speak.

          [–]Cheesesteak21 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Fucking GARBAGE. You had 1 shot to make something incredible and you fucking blew it all!!!

          At this point im only curious what this would have looked like without studio interference, as weve had multiple reports that they Hamstrung JJ and that Rian made an even worse decision and listened to them.

          You had Lucas treatments.... you could have made another epic trilogy.... and you fucking failed in every possible way...

          [–]UrynSM 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          The JJ cut thing is nothing more than sequel fans going through the stages of grief, this one being denial and delusion.
          It doesn't exist. Its all a crafted narrative to feed into blame deflection. Notice how currently every couple of days there's a new one to blame: story group, KK, RJ, JJ, Terrio, whoever. Truth is EVERYONE shat the bed the hardest it's ever been in cinematic history and have ruined one of the most profitable brands in Hollywood beyond repair. Stop picking at straws and blame Disney as a whole, everyone involved in it, but the actual crew, and with that i mean actors, lighting, special effects, etc. Not the higher ups and definitely not the writers.

          [–]RepresentativeBinksnew user 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          At least we'd get Anakin out of an alleged JJ Cut.

          [–]GamerChef420 1 point2 points  (0 children)


          [–]21lives 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Does no one see the striking similarity between Portman and Ridley? She looks more like Padme than Leia for gods sake.

          [–]JulianBaltazarGabkaso salty it hurts 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          She looks more like Shmi than Padme or Leia

          [–]TempestM 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          when in fact it was ruined before that with TLJ

          I don't even think that TFA was ever good

          [–]lousy_writerrussian bot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I haven't seen TROS, but from everything I've read it looks strongly as if JJ's plan for the trilogy wasn't much better than what RJ made of it. Maybe more entertaining, but just as nonsensical.

          So yeah, the entire trilogy is wasted.

          [–]Cbird54 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I don't think it could fix anything but it'd be nice if the film wasn't worse that TLJ which ROS is.

          [–]Nekinej 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I think they forgot that a cornerstone of a good plot is a good antagonist.

          Over the course of both E7 and E8 they failed to establish a semblance of a Vader or Palpatine-esque character. They treated them as stand alone super hero flicks with disposable villains.

          Which is all the more ironic given how the entire phase 1-3 of MCU was held together by a proper antagonist in the background... I mean how could you fk up this bad having nailed it perfectly just before?

          [–]SecretiveTauros 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Yeah, I don't get this either. The J.J. Cut sounds slightly more coherent, but is still a terrible story.

          [–]annaaiinot a "true fan" 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Yes. Even if the cut exists and even if it is better than what we have (though I doubt the difference would be that big), it doesn't save the trilogy as a whole. At this point, nothing can. Except pretending it never happened.

          [–]dericiouswon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Whether or not you buy into the alleged leaks, it's a certainty that many cuts of the film have existed at one point and that the studio has the final say on what finally gets released.

          There's nothing far fetched about that whatsoever.

          [–]mrbisonopolis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Eh. Babu Frik is good.

          [–]Ellspop 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Yep we can all agree on that one, denials will deny that the new sequels are just an easy cash grab by disney that destroyed the original characters completely without bringing anything actually interesting to the franchise, what a fucking mess

          [–]Zentikwalizrussian bot 2 points3 points  (0 children)



          FFS - they've been garbage since 1999!

          It's time to stop the undeserved rehabilitation of the Prequels.

          They are, were and always will be a permanent stain on the franchise.

          It's been said before - Lucas killed the franchise with the Prequels; the Sequel Trilogy simply pissed on the corpse.

          [–]NotAKneeler -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          No way, grandpa. The prequels are absolutely amazing, a masterclass of cinema specially when compared to this dumpster fire that is the DT.


          This is sarcasm, right?

          [–]JATION -1 points0 points  (2 children)

          The prequels are better than the OT.

          ST is soulless, senseless crap.


          Saying that the Prequels are better than the originals is just delusional.

          [–]JATION -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Or an opinion of someone who values different things than you in a movie.

          [–]bluewords 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I do not agree. I think TFA was ok. Obviously not perfect, but fine. Snoke was dumb. Han going back to being a smuggler was dumb. Rey was a little bit of a Mary Sue, but it wasn’t that bad. The trilogy could have been salvaged with a good episode 8. Instead we got TLJ. If 8 was directed by anyone who gave a shit, this trilogy could have worked.

          [–]xRATBAGx 0 points1 point  (3 children)

          This sub: rise of skywalker sucks!

          Also this sub: give us more rise of skywalker!

          [–]Kyrissius[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          Lmao where?

          The leaks? Those were just people going against Disney, and people coming from outside the sub to read the leaks, no one and I mean no one in this subreddit wanted anything more from TROS any hate on Disney for the treatment of jj should not be taken as such and vice versa.

          [–]xRATBAGx 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          I wasn't referring to your post. Just the general "release the JJ cut" posts that I've been seeing here

          [–]Kyrissius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          agreed, this is what I was referring to

          [–]DiscombobulatedFly6 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          It was ruined when the Force Awakens came out, and it was ruined when the Rise of Skywalker came out. Ever since Disney bought Star Wars, everything's just been a mixed bag.