Are We Christian?

This past week, as I vacationed with my in-laws, my mother-in-law told me, “Judah, we love having you as a son-in-law. You’re such a a good Christian guy…”

And a distant in-law, a hard-line Catholic, rhetorically asked me, “You’ve read Paul haven’t you? And you still believe in those traditions?!” [cue sad trombone]

I just chuckled to myself.

This same Catholic then mentioned how the Pope is steadfast in his belief that the Jews must be converted to Catholicism. (Oiy!)

Last week’s post on the Church and the Jews has got me torn to bits by this question, honestly. Those early pioneers of Messianic Judaism were Hebrew Christians who saw themselves as part of the Church, unapologetically Christian.

JudeoXian writes,

Though they [the early Hebrew Christian pioneers] have long passed on, their lifestyle challenges us to face the questions, “What is our relationship to Christianity? Are we a part of it? Are we a reform movement within it? Or are we another religion altogether?” We face anew the question of ecclesiology, the doctrine of the Church.

The question remains: are Messianics …Christians?

Messianics are unique: we’re straddling a divide between 2 religions that have, historically, hated each other to the point of persecution: Judaism persecuted the early believers in Messiah to the point of death, and once the religion of Christianity took off and became the majority, it returned the favor without hesitancy, persecuting to death the Jews of the Middle Ages.

This straddling between 2 religions causes us to endure much trouble and angst; we’re continually pulled from both sides to become authentic: either Real Jews© or Real Christians®. Not that half-assed Messianic nonsense.

Anti-Yeshua organizations like Jews for Judaism will unceasingly say, “See! Those Messianics are just Christians in disguise. They’re not real Jews. They’re deceptive Christians trying to baptize Jews into Christianity, ultimately causing them to lose their identity as Jews.”

Such anti-missionary (anti-Yeshua, anti-Messiah?) organizations want you to believe that if we Messianics are successful, and yet more Jews believe in Yeshua as Messiah, the Jewish people will cease to exist; Jews will be swallowed up and assimilated into the Church, intermarrying and becoming Torahless gentiles within a generation or two.

The Borg!

In fact, as I write this, JewsForJudaism is expanding its ventures, following Messianic folks on Twitter, sending us messages about how the New Testament is full of errors, how the Church is really a big bad evil wolf, how the Church has misappropriated prophecies like Isaiah 53 and Daniel, how Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah, and so on.

They are doing everything in their power to squelch us Messianics. Either paint us as Christians or convert us to mainstream Judaism, is their goal. They’ve succeeded to some extent, but still we press on toward the goal of Messiah whose called us his own.


Why We’re Uncomfortable with Christianity and the Church


Perhaps for this reason, because we do not want to be seen as Christians-in-disguise -- we do not wish to be tools of the evangelizing arm of Mother Church -- it is very uncomfortable for us, as Messianics, to say, “Yes, we are Christians.”

Another reason is that many of us have reviewed the Church’s rejection and eventual persecution of Israel. We believe this to be in error. We have reviewed the writings of the early Church fathers who spoke ill of the Jews and the very Law by which Messiah lived, causing Ignatius of Antioch to say,

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, and things in which the Jews boast. "Old things are passed away: all things have become new." For if we live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.

Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God.

It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity.


We believe this anti-Semitic, hateful doctrine to be in error. I would go as far as to say that doctrine is thoroughly anti-Messiah.

We reviewed the Church’s clean break with Judaism in the 4th century, officially cutting itself off from the very Passover that Messiah and the disciples celebrated, fully distinguishing itself from the Judaism of Messiah and the disciples:

When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of immortality, celebrated by all with one accord and in the same manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of festivals, to follow the customs (the calculation) of the Jews who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded.

We ought not therefore to have anything in common with the Jew, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship following a more legitimate and more convenient course (the order of the days of the week: And consequently in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jew.

How, then, could we follow these Jews (in celebrating Passover) who are most certainly blinded by error?

It is your duty not to tarnish your soul by communication with such wicked people, the Jews. You should consider not only that the number of churches in these provinces make a majority, but also that it is right to demand what our reason approves, and that we should have nothing in common with the Jews.

The above statement was issued from Nicaean Council. This is the council that issued decrees that are, to this day, considered central and core theologies of the Church, both Protestant and Catholic. This thinly-veiled contempt for Jews and God’s Torah we find truly astonishing and shameful. Needless to say, we find this core theology of the Church to be in error.

The final major reason, and perhaps the most foundational reason we are uncomfortable with being labeled “Christian” is that it suggests a fundamental shift we’re not prepared to make: that Jesus came to start a new religion separate from Judaism. We find this also to be in error.

It’s a difficult thing, I think, for Christians to concede: Jesus practiced Judaism. The religion of Israel has become known as Judaism, and Jesus practiced all the things 1st century Judaism entails: earnestly loving God, living one’s life around God’s Temple at Jerusalem, celebrating the Feasts, eating kosher, refraining from idols and unclean things, keeping God’s sabbath, reciting the Shema, keeping the commandments, for example – the gospels record Jesus doing all these things! And not once is there an example of Jesus breaking any of the Torah commandments which Judaism is built around.

That Jesus practiced Judaism is something we Messianics remain convinced of, and if proven true, we feel vindicated and confident in our belief that conversion to a new religion called Christianity is not what Jesus intended. In no unclear terms we assert: converting Jews to Christianity and making them as pork-eating gentiles is not the proper mode of faith in Yeshua and indeed threatens Jewish identity just as the anti-missionary groups suggest.


So the Church has made errors. Aren’t you still Christian?


Vine of David, a Messianic publishing organization aimed at Yeshua apologetics, has this to say on the matter:

Movements like ours have called themselves by many names. In fact, we often get caught up in titles as we try to decide how to define ourselves. Titles serve not only to communicate with whom we identify, but also from whom we wish to distinguish ourselves. New titles crop up any time people feel the need to cut themselves off from others.

It is of no benefit to get hung up on labels and titles, but we have chosen to use the term "Messianic Judaism." Our point is not to exclude or criticize people who chose to identify differently, but we, like many others, feel that "Messianic Judaism" is a fitting description of our organization.

By identifying our perspective and lifestyle as an expression of Judaism, we intend to communicate a sense of continuity between ourselves and the historical people, culture, nation, community, life, and system of worship found in the Torah. That people group—the group to whom Yeshua the Messiah himself belonged—is the Jewish people. His system of worship was Judaism, and he did not intend to abrogate that system or exchange it for another. Instead, his message was one of national and personal repentance within the framework of Judaism. Yeshua and his earliest followers did not see themselves outside of Judaism, but a part of it.

Historical Christianity, in general, has sought to define itself against Judaism, making a clean break with the people and religious system of Israel. We feel that this was a regrettable mistake. By using the term "Judaism," we intend to put our faith and observance back into its proper historical context.

In pointing out the Church’s errors, we do not meant to condemn or point the finger at Christians that love Jesus and serve the Lord. We do not mean to insult the thing you love so dearly.

Rather, we wish to correct the mistake of abandoning Judaism and all the pain and persecution that decision has caused the Jewish people.

But are we Christian? It’s a question I’m still battling over.

On one hand, I reject the Church’s narrow evangelical mode of “convert the Jews to [insert flavor here] Christianity at all costs, Jewish identity and Torah-observance be damned”. I reject that, I think it’s wrong, I think Jesus never intended for such a thing, I think it threatens Jewish identity, I think it leads to lawlessness.

I reject the Church’s shameful anti-Jewish theologies and historical persecution of Jews and vilification of Judaism; it’s a permanent stain on the Church that Jews will not forget. These doctrines have led to all kinds of evil theology, which leads to physical persecution that has been a shameful example of Messiah.

And oh, how I desire for the anti-missionary organizations to be proved wrong! How I desire that Jews can believe in Yeshua and remain Jewish! It would seem one must distance himself from the Church for that to be true.

And oh, how I wish the Jewish world at large would view Messianic Judaism as a legitimate form of Judaism! It’s this desperate, unheard need for legitimacy, combined with the encouraging of the anti-missionary groups, that has led some Messianics to abandon Yeshua. This desired legitimacy, something we may never see from Judaism, requires a separation from the Church that for so long has persecuted God’s chosen people.

On the other hand, I feel quite at home and feel brotherhood with those Christians that earnestly love Messiah. I recognize the good they have done; there are innumerable righteous gentiles functioning in the Christian Church. We recognize people within the Church, such as Corrie Ten Boom, that have, in the true form of Messiah’s example, saved Jews at risk of their own lives, and have loved the Jewish people and sacrificed even their own families for God’s people. But this kind of heroics always gets attention; it’s the millions of Christians today that unconditionally love Jews and are ardent Zionists; it’s these that deserve a spotlight.

Finally, I’m impressed and encouraged by the early Hebrew Christian pioneers. They were so unapologetically bold for Yeshua as Messiah, that I must question whether our anti-Church stance has caused us to shrink back our zeal for Yeshua. Could it be that we have spent too much of our zeal in rebellion against the Church when it could be redirected toward a zealousness for Messiah and God’s Law?

At the very least, I feel like Christians are our brothers. At the same time, I cannot with honest heart say, “I’m a Christian”.

I am thus divided. Maybe such is the life of a Messianic.

What do you think, fine blog readers?


  1. This is a tough one, but I really don't think what you call yourself matters. Jew, Gentile, man, or woman, if you believe that Jesus (Yeshua) is the son of God, and you put your faith in him - then you are his. Don't put your faith in your Jewness, just as I don't put it in my ethnic/cultural background.

    Each of us must work out our own salvation. Just keep Messiah as your light and you won't lose your way.

  2. Either way, one thing is straight - no matter what one calls himself, he is what he does, primarily, and he is also what he believes, secondarily. [Belief and action are supposed to go together, but sometimes don't, heheh.]

    Taking that into account, as it was also established, at a time there was no other option for Jewish believers than to be considered Christian. Have these things in mind while you read the rest:

    Being part of the entity known as Christianity is being part of a counterfeit system that was established upon anti-Torah/Semitic/Judaistic doctrines. Even though many Messianic Jews who I love, and many Messianic Jewish organizations wouldn't like to think its true - Judaism and Christianity are incompatible. Its like mixing a horse and donkey to make a mule which cannot reproduce and really isn't supposed to happen.

    But religious labels don't make somebody a set species, they're JUST religious labels. It doesn't necessarily mean anything if someone were to call something Jewish Christianity which is pretty much the same definition as Messianic Judaism.
    The problem is what will happen when people will try to mesh together Christian values and Jewish values. We must understand that HaRav Yeshua was solely Jewish and Christianity was not existent in his day nor did he intend for it to be created. He was Jewish and all of his followers were.

    Reading a book by Daniel Lancaster, and from hearing his precious teachings shows me clearly that this is known among one such individual who does represent a major Messianic Jewish organization, and therefore the problem of meshing these two doesn't seem all too serious here, since Daniel Lancaster has things very right!

    However, perhaps he or others like him, and I mean perhaps, are not in line with trying to associate with Christianity or be part of it, and I'd say the same thing would go for trying to associate with modern Judaism, however that is somewhat different.

    No matter what box people try to put you in, and how much pressure will be received for not fitting perfectly into one cookie-cutter preset or another - one can just be what one is and not try to become part of an existing body, AND ignore all pressures to be fit into a certain label.

  3. Long story made short. I truly believe the rapture is going to happen this Yom Teruah 2009. Why do I say this. Well for past 6 years the Holy Spirit has been showing me 918 on digital clocks at work, home, and in my car. This has been my burning bush experience. Then I started to see it in on license plates while I was driving. Then I would see it on house addresses. At first I thought I was losing my mind because September 18th is my birthday and I felt I was also going to die that day, but then the Holy Spirit was urging me to dig deeper because I saw a DVD of the Matrix movie last year and when Neo's alarm clock goes off the time was 9:18 on his clock. At that point you could have pushed me over with a feather because I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt G-d wanted me to know something important. Yes I am saved and I am a bible believing Christian, but I was a sleeping unmessianic Christian. I knew nothing about the Feasts of the Lord, until I discovered I was stunned and the more I checked into how the Hebrew calendar worked the more I became convinced that God does reveal secrets to his servants. We need to watch and pray. It does not matter what we call ourselves if we have accepted the Lord Yeshua as our savior Check out and look at a Jewish Holiday Calendar and see how many holidays have September 18th in it for the next few years. Another good website is


    p.s Chandra means like the moon in sanskrit. Yom Teruah is determined by the new moon. Erev Rosh Hoshanah is September 18th at 6:44 pm which is also a Shabbat. God uses signs to get our attention.

  4. Jason, you said:

    I'd like to challenge you on this statement. I disagree and the teachings of my faith say otherwise, so I'll explain.

    You have a valid point that seems to mesh with the "one new man" statement, that regardless of who you are or where you're from, you're "one in messiah".
    This is fine if one only takes into account that it is gentiles becoming Jews, i.e. Judaizing ("Judaizing" in its proper and original context means converting yourself to Judaism, not something done by a Jew who teaches Judaism).

    If you reverse the point of Messiah to the gentiles, you have a serious problem in theology, and it can't really be said you and I believe in the same Messiah.
    If someone says Jews should become gentile Christians, or Christians period - you've reversed the role of Messiah.
    Instead, Messiah intended for gentiles to become Israelites, not the other way around. Reversing that would be akin to calling evil good and good evil - a completely Satanic reversal of the truth and intent of Messiah. Unfortunately, this is common place in Christian doctrine.

    "Don't put your faith in your Jewness" is a very touchy phrase which indicates to me classic Christian doctrine.
    I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "putting your faith" in Jewishness. If Jewishness means Torah observance and belief in a One God, then that is everything to put your faith in. If Jewishness means your heritage by way of your ancestors, it means you should not forsake it whatsoever!
    Your post seems to be indicating that this means nothing, if I am correct.

    Romans 3:1-4

    What then is the superiority of the Jew? Or what is the advantage of circumcision?
    Much, every way. And first, because to them were intrusted the oracles of God.
    For if some of them have not believed, have they, by their not believing, made the faith of God inefficient?
    Far be it: for God is veracious...

    Yishtabahh Sh'mo la'adh, yizkor l'olam b'ritho. (May his Name be exalted forever, he will always remember his covenant.)

  5. The Lord Yeshua calls us his friends. Those of us who were not born Jews physically can become true Jews, if we circumcise our hearts. Romans 2:29. I would have loved to have been more knowledgeable and connected to the Hebrew roots of my faith. I believe that the Christians are one loaf and the Jews are the other loaf presented as a wave offering to the Lord. Leviticus 23:17

  6. Chasta, you said:

    "Those of us who were not born Jews physically can become true Jews, if we circumcise our hearts."

    Circumcising your heart means to accept the Will of the Creator upon yourself without being rebellious, yielding to your human nature and not doing the commandments.

    In short, circumcising your heart includes choosing to circumcise your flesh [for men only, of course!] and obey all else which applies to you in the entire Torah.

    You also said:


    Its a nice thought, and it'd be nice if it were true, but a religion which often persecutes true Israel and holds the Torah to be a burden and a curse is not going to be something associated with God's one and ONLY people - Israel.
    Perhaps individuals within Christianity who have had a change of mind and heart, but not Christianity as a whole, and certainly not the religious institution of it whatsoever.

  7. Matthew 23 (New King James Version

    1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[a]that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues . . .13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[c]
    16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it...

    Being simply religious and not having a heart for God is worthless. the Lord Yeshua spoke out against such Jews. In the same way Christianity can be just as corrupt and worthless. Religion is a demonic spirit that is why we have so many of them along with sects of each religion. True spirituality can only come from G-d and we can't come to G-d except through the Lord Yeshua. That is why being filled with the Holy Spirit is so vital. The comforter protects us from religion if we yield to him, but our flesh resists yielding.

    Also God took a people for himself out of the gentiles.

    Just as the Saul become Paul after he submitted to the Lord Yeshua and became a trustworthy apostle we all must submit to the Lord Yeshua despite our flesh.

  8. Yes, you are Christian.

    But you wouldn't be if you followed the authentic, historical Pharisee Ribi who taught Torah.

    See (especially the pages in our History Museum).

    Paqid Yirmeyahu

  9. Chasta, your post is in response of me saying circumcision of heart means submission to the Torah and therefore circumcision of the flesh as well.

    Interestingly, Matthew 23:14 is not found among Aramaic manuscripts.

    Also, 23:23 reads deceitfully false in the New King James it should read:

    "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, but have neglected the weightier [matters] of the Torah; justice, mercy, and faith; but these things you were right to do without neglecting the others."

    Its good to take into account that some Pharisees were definitely against Yeshua, while others were not, tried to save his life, called him Rabbis, etc, etc.
    Rav Shaul delcares in Acts 23:6 "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee". And if you read Acts and udnerstand the Oral Tradition of Judaism, you will understand that Rav Shaul is put on trial for upholding a belief of the Oral Tradition - the resurrection - which is found nowhere in the Tanakh, but is found in the Talmud and believed by both the Pharisees and Essenes, both Oral Tradition believing sects of Judaism and the two sects from which derived the followers of HaRav Yeshua.

    So you must understand that there were two houses of Pharisaism in Yeshua's day. You must understand who is who and not get confused lest you fall into the same sin of anti-Semitism/Judaism as Christianity has.

    You said:


    Religion is a demonic spirit? Then Moshe must have been filled with that demonic spirit when he set up organized faith (the definition of religion) on Mt. Sinai? Surely not.

    I will agree with you that false religion is demonic. Judaism is the One True Faith of Israel, a counter-religion like Christianity is demonic, and an anti-Judaistic Ephraimite religion follows the same error as Bishop Ignatius of Antioch when he called Judaism false and named Christianity as the religion of his supposed christ.

    On your comments on spirituality, I agree. Hence, I study and practice Kabbalah on a regularly when I perform tseruf (speaking non-words in Hebrew letter combination to utilize the mystical power of the Hebrew letters; a form of "speaking in tongues"), when I invoke Holy Names, when I wear tsitsith and tefillin and affix a mezuzah to my doorpost, etc, etc.
    All these things are Torah spirituality (Kabbalah), and they are part of Judaism - a religion. These are religious things and I perform them. Am I a heartless tradition follower because of this? Much the opposite.

    I'm saying all these things so you can realize that you're making, quite frankly, ridiculous generalizations which hardly exist.

  10. I have to add this so that the entirety of my posts here will not be understood.

    I understand that individual people seeking the One True God are in a process. They may be led to one place before being led to another. If they stop along the way in a certain place which isn't the goal - they're not evil.

    It is truly all about being connected with and knowing the One Creator, He Who Is All Transcendent as his Name Yud-Heh-Waw-Heh implies.
    To know him is to do his commandments, statutes, ordinances, and sentences. When one does these things he does the Will of the Heavenly Father and loves Him.
    This will lead to deeper things to those whose hearts and minds are submitted to the Creator.

    The process of getting for those who are searching and seeking Him and have not grown up in His Torah is sometimes long - but for these people there is a lot of grace.

  11. There are a lot of different positions out there as to whether or not the Messianic movement has a Christian spiritual and theological heritage it has inherited. I am one who says a resounding: Yes! But others say no. I would not say that we are Christianity, per se, and neither Judaism--but something unique.

    A noticeable trend in Biblical Studies today is recognizing that Judaism of the First Century was not at all monolithic, and to instead use the term "Judaisms." Christianity throughout history has similarly not been monolithic. The divisions between Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestantism alone prove this.

    Today's Messianic movement often lacks a real sense of recognizing the complexities of Church history. This is why slurs about our Christian brethren, about the Church being "Babylon," about different denominations of Protestantism being "whore daughters," etc. abound. If people really did know how complicated things were--and did not want similar rhetoric directed back at the Synagogue--then we would not have some of the antics present that tarnish our reputation and credibility.

    An excellent read that goes through some of the complexities of early Christianity, which does it best to not take an exclusively Western approach, is History of the World Christian Movement by Irvin and Sunquist. You will see immediately how many different strands of Christian thought emerged in the Second-Fifth Centuries, and how we need to be really careful with what we assume about early Christian history.

    We have a long way to go, I fear...

  12. Thank you for this post Judah. Much to think about.

    Aharon this comment really resonated with me personally..


    J.K. I agree with you also...and I plan on purchasing the book you suggested so that I can learn more for myself.

    Personally I do not care for labels...I am so much more comfortable having an inner identity based on my faith in Messiah....this inner part of me has allowed me to cross barriers.......I feel comfortable going to church just as I feel comfortable in a messianic synagogue. I have a clear conscience and a peace; and it took time, prayer, and experience for me to get to this point. I pray that I can continue to be at peace and live in God's grace while extending it to others...

    Paul admonishes in 1 Corinthians 4:5 to "Judge nothing before the time; before the Lord comes.."

    I want to understand, I want to love, and I want to steer clear of Aharon said its a process.....

    so to answer your question...I am a Christian in the since that I follow Christ...I am apart of Messianic Judaism in that I recognize the roots of my faith, and as a Gentile I take hold of my spiritual heritage with gratefulness.

    I am simply me. Non-Label liking Me.

    Much love achi. Keep us thinking :)

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  14. As the old Yiddish proverb goes,

    "The Messiah you are expecting will never come. The Messiah that's coming you never expected."

    Messiah said something profound, something that affects how we view him. He said,

    I am the way, truth, and life. No one comes to G-d except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

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  17. Messiah showed up on the scene right before the Temple was destroyed, just as Daniel had prophesied.

    Many Jewish people missed him, just as Isaiah prophesied. I've rediscovered him. All Israel will eventually, just as prophesied in the Tenakh.

    The same book of Revelation you quote from calls Messiah Yeshua the King of Glory, one with God, and that all nations and kol Yisrael will bow before his feet.

    Your theological objections are unfounded.

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  20. >> Every knee will bow to YHVH

    And Messiah is one with G-d. Praying to G-d and praying to Messiah is the same thing; they are one. Messiah said it himself.

    >> Then why don't people worship Cyrus

    Ask your rabbi why Cyrus is not the Messiah of Judaism. I'll likely agree with him.

    On an unrelated note, are you Jewish? I see you suggest some things that Judaism wouldn't endorse. I'm suspecting you're a Cowboy Religionist, maybe even gentile?

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  22. and....

    Cyrus did not have the distinction of being called the "Lamb of YHVH" which takes away the sin of the world


    Yeshua was given many other titles which no other man has ever received from YHVH


    at the end of the age YHVH turns over the entire Kingdom to Yeshua


    they ( His called out ones ) will worship the Lamb and follow Him wherever He goes

    whoever you are, it sounds like you are missing Messiah Yeshua, and that must leave a great emptiness in your heart.

    May you find shalom in Him.


  23. Preach it, Efrayim! :) (and amen amen amen to everything you said)

  24. Hi Judah,
    You quote "The Messiah you are expecting will never come. The Messiah that's coming you never expected."
    This saying is false and here is why.
    Messiah is the English word for Moshiach which means anointed [one].

    From what we learn in the Tanach is that there will be a so called Messianic age where

    The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt.
    The anointed one will rule at a time of world-wide peace.
    Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments.
    All people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d.

    If this happens then you won't have to believe that the anointed one came everyone will know that he is here it will be all over the news and not something one will miss.

  25. If we know what the word Messiah means (anointed one) then what makes you think that Cyrus can't be an anointed one.

    And FYI there were many Messiahs (anointed ones) in Jewish history like Jewish Kings, High priests, Temple Utensils were all anointed and the bible uses the word Moshiach on all of them.

    Q. How do you know that Bar Kokhba wasn't the Messiah?

  26. Also, Yesha'yahu 53 is indeed speaking of Israel - there's no question about that when you read it in context with surrounding chapters. Simply put though, the life of Mashiahh is intended to parallel that of Israel.

    Its true, Dawidh HaMelekh was indeed Mashiahh, as was Kirush (Cyrus). However when speaking of HA-Mashiahh, there definitely is such, and the [Oral Tradition] belief in the resurrection is true.

  27. @Aharon From where do you get this "the life of Mashiahh is intended to parallel that of Israel"?

    HA-Mashiahh is said many times in the Tanach and it is always taking about an anointed one and not as the King James translation of the bible edits Daniel 9:25-26 to say *Messiah* instead of *anointed* while in all other places King James translates it to anointed (Hebrew text says (Ha)Moshiach in all places)

    If I remember correctly the Tanach never calls the leader of the Messianic age with the word The Massiah.

  28. To the anon's "how come X isn't messiah? He was an "annointed one" after all! They're all messiahs; they're all annointed ones!"

    You are ignoring Judaism's millenia-old belief and hope in the coming of the Messiah, the promised one who will bring salvation and redemption and vindication and restoration. Of the Temple, of Israel, of the nations.

    I can only guess you are diluting the meaning of Messiah to deliberately reduce Yeshua's Messiahship. This is particularly foolish given Judaism's understanding of Messiah which, to this day, causes Jews to look forward to son-of-David who will do the things prophesied of Messiah in the Tenakh.

  29. @Judah We do await for the coming of the Moshiach (the anointed one) but the Tanach doesn't call this person *the Moshiach* that use comes from the Oral Torah.

    I am not trying to dilute anything here just to show that whenever (without exception) the Tanach says the word Moshiach it means anointed.

    You say "they're all anointed ones" yes they were but Yeshu wasn't even anointed how come you call him Messiah?

  30. >> Why do you call him Messiah?

    Yeshua is the Messiah of Judaism and the Messiah of all nations because he was annointed by God to bring salvation to the nations. He was annointed by God to bring atonement for all humanity. 1/3 of the entire world knows the God of Israel because of Yeshua. That's something Bar Kokhba and the hundreds of other failed messiahs could never accomplish.

    And, in time, Yeshua will cause the Temple to be rebuilt, he'll restore Israel to her former glory, he'll bring lasting peace, he'll bring the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah, something he set in motion 2000 years ago. In time, Yeshua will do the things Judaism expects of the son of David.

  31. @Judah you would need proof to back you up it's easy to say things but a bit harder to find proof on this and proof would have to come from the Tanach (OT).

    You say "Yeshua was anointed by G-d"? Where do we see this? And you believe that Yeshua *is* god then did he anoint himself?
    Or is all your proof that "1/3 of the entire world knows the God of Israel because of Yeshua". The requirement is that all the people not just 1/3 know G-d. Answering that he will accomplish all the other requirements in his second coming doesn't give any proof that he is the Messiah.

    Jeremiah's reference to a "new covenant" (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is not a replacement of the existing covenant, but merely a figure of speech expressing the reinvigoration and revitalization of the existing covenant. (Genesis 17:7) says
    "I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an *everlasting covenant*"

    So was Yeshua even a legal male descendant of David and King Solomon? (Samuel 2 7:12-13)

  32. Anonymous dude,

    You make the following points:
    -"HaMashiahh" is written many times in the Tanakh and is always talking about an anointed one, such as Kirush and others.

    Well of course the Hebrew text is going to put a heh before mem, shin, yud, hheth; when its a DEFINITE article; that is, when its speaking of THE ANOINTED ONE of the particular context.

    When speaking of the belief which was held by the Pharisees and Essenes of a major Anointed One, who is not necessarily the "mashiahh that exists in every generation" but is a greater-than-Dawidh, and is even, as the Essenes believed, a Kohen in the manner in which Melki-Tsedheq was - then we're talking HA-Mashiahh, The Anointed, not just a Krush, not just any other anointed one whom Y" has chosen to perform a specific duty. Moshe was an anointed one, so was Y'hoshua, etc, etc, etc, the list goes on. And it may refer to any of these as "hamashiahh", you're correct, but that's not what we're talking about here, obviously - stop playing stupid.

    Neither does the Tanakh talk about the resurrection of the dead nor distinguish between Ghei-Hinom and Pardes. Its in the Oral Tradition which was believed, practiced, and taught by the Pharisees and Essenes who were the forefathers of my forefathers the Netsarim Rishonim. This is what we believe. If you're a Karaite, you're not going to believe this since you reject the Oral Tradition.

  33. Anonymous dude, you say:


    Do you understand the second Temple period understanding of Davar/Memra/Logos in Judaism? Could you tell me anything about that?

  34. @Aharon Yup it makes sense.

    In the Tanach it doesn't talk about a "HaMashiahh" (The Messiah) when talking about the _Son of David_ that will be in the Messianic Age.

  35. Anonymous,

    It could mean anyone, any descendant of Dawidh, right?

    The understanding of the Netser relies on the Oral Traditions.

  36. @Aharon According to the Tenach, the Messiah must be a descendant of David through his son Solomon (2 Samuel. 7:14) but he can't come from the descendants of Jeconiah(Coniah) (Jeremiah 22:30)

    The Hebrew word "HaMashiach"(the Messiah) speaking about a future anointed person does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

  37. Anonymous,


    YES, YES, I was referring to your argument that the descendant of Dawidh that would be an anointed one would be anyone in his specific line - since there are indeed so many messiahs, and you're arguments seem to initially indicate there are many messiahs and not a major true Messiah.

    It is a true argument that there are many messiahs, including Kirush, and people need to recognize that whenever it says in the Tanakh "mashiahh" it is not always referring to the major Anointed One, but could be referring to Kirush, in Dani'el, or another in a different context of Scripture.

    Following tribal status according to modern Jewish halakhah, this genealogy would be through the mother which is the case with Miryam but also quite possibly Yoseph as well, since there is much controversy and seeming contradiction with the genealogies. When you take into account the original Hebrew and Aramaic texts were translated over and over into Greek which became the status quo, and those Greek texts actually evolved, as did the Aramaic texts, further from the truth of what was originally written; AND when you take into account these texts have been in the hands and under the mercy of an anti-Semitic institution for so long - what can you expect to happen?

    Modern Judaism has gotten off, even off of pure Talmudic observance. Kol hakavod to the small groups returning to an obervance strictly to Mishneh Torah, and who begin reading and understanding truly what was Jewish thought in the second Temple period.

  38. @Aharon "Following tribal status according to modern Jewish halakhah, this genealogy would be through the mother" well According to Jewish law tribal affiliation goes _only_ through the *father*,not mother (Numbers 1:18 ,Ezra 2:59).

    Even so
    1. There is no evidence that Mary (Miryam) descends from David (Luke 3 traces Joseph’s genealogy)
    2. Mary isn't a descendent of David through his son Solomon.

    And Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Matthew 1:11)

  39. I'm not even going to bother getting into any discussion about the genealogies. My reasoning in my previous post suffices.

    You said,


    According to Tanakh and probably original Jewish halakha, but NOT according to modern Jewish halakha, since being a Jew (Heb: Y'hudhi; Judaite) is said to come from the mother's side.

    If taken literally, this means being a member of the tribe of Judah or a tribe among the House of Judah seems no longer reliant upon who your father is.

  40. In fact, there is Kabbalistic reason, which I agree with, having to do with what is passed from the mother - however, this has too much negated what the Tanakh says, in that tribal identity (i.e. being a Yehudhi, a Judaite, a Jew) is from the father.

  41. @Aharon it really doesn't matter from what line it descends.

    He can't fulfill David through his son Solomon and not from Jeconiah

  42. All of your arguments against Yeshua as Messiah and Yeshua as God have been rehashed from elsewhere and have been thoroughly debunked.

    J.K. McKee put together a good article addressing the divinity of Yeshua. I hope you are opened minded enough to give it a read: Frequently avoided questions on the divinity of Yeshua.

  43. @Aharon regarding Davar/Memra/Logos take a look at Gerry Sigal's book "Trinity Doctrine Error", pp.104-106

    @Judah I'll get back to you later after reading that whole long article.

  44. @Judah

    First of all this article assumes that the one reading it believes in Yeshu as the Messiah (ie. it only works if the person believes first. It’s like drawing the target after shooting the arrow).

    (It's also nice to see that the name Yeshu turned into Yeshua but it doesn't really matter what really is the name)

    In his article for some reason he assumes that the word Messiah means savior but the word Messiah is from the Hebrew word Moshiach which means anointed. It's the word Moshia that means Savior not the word Messiah. (mistranslation)

    This article is twisting words like saying Exodus 15:2 "the Lord has become our yeshuah." which is clearly a wrong translation it should be "the LORD has become my salvation;" Then the article converts the word yeshuah to Yeshua so you should think that it is talking about Yeshu while it really isn't.

    This is what I see he is trying to say in the article. Yeshua is the Messiah therefore he must be god because only G-d can be the savior. Dude Messiah doesn't mean savior this whole article is based on a false translation of the word Messiah.

    This article is full of mistranslation:
    And example would be(Psalm 78:41) doesn’t say tempted it says “And still again they *tried* God ...”

    1. The Moshiach won't redeem/save us, G-d will and he will send the offspring of King David to be anointed.
    2. Miracles doesn’t demonstrate Divinity (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)

    100 weak proofs doesn’t make the proof stronger
    System.Console.WriteLine(0 * 100);// = 0
    The question still stands how do you know that Yeshu is the Messiah and that it means savior.

  45. Anon,

    You've said about 20 times now that the Hebrew "mashiach" means anointed one. Thank you, yes, we're well aware of that.

    But you say that as if to dilute the reality of the promised Messiah, as if there's no such thing as the Messiah. Such a view is entirely disconnected from Judaism's understanding of Messiah.

    Are you familiar with the great rabbi Maimonides? He expected *the* Messiah to come, saying in his 13 principles of Jewish faith: "I believe with perfect faith in the coming of Messiah. How long it takes, I await his coming every day."

    As far as redemption coming from Messiah, again, your view is one entirely disconnected from Judaism; so much so that I must question whether you're observant. Even the non-Yeshua believing Jewish websites like state,

    Moshiach will not just redeem the Jewish people from exile—he will redeem mankind from meaninglessness, and teach the purpose of life to the universe.

    That view is rooted in the Talmud and, to return your programming term usage, derived from the prophets in the Tenakh. Rabbis over the past 2000 years have speculated on the coming of Messiah and the redemption he will bring to Israel and to the world.

    That you ignore this leads me to believe you're either unobservant in your Judaism, ignorant of thousands of years of Jewish study and literature, or simply a Cowboy Religionist.

  46. @Judah I am an observant Jew.

    And here I believe is the big misconception.

    You think of Yeshu as the savior (I'm not even talking about god) but call him the Messiah out of ignorance or to make people think that we are talking about the same thing when referring to the word Messiah.

    Yes there is a concept of *The Messiah* but that means *The an*****d one* as I said 20 times. But "there's no such thing as the Messiah" the way Christians see it (saving, etc...) in Judaism.

    Maimonides 13 principles of faith doesn't talk about the Messiah saving the people. And as Maimonides puts it we believe "in *the coming* of the Messiah" we don't believe in *the Messiah* like Christians believe.

    I don't believe that my view is disconnected from Jewish view on this matter I know that you would like the Jewish view to be like your but it isn't.

  47. Judaism sees Messiah as a saving, redeeming person. I gave you an example in the last post. I guess you chose to ignore that.

    You say Judaism doesn't believe in a Messiah like Christianity does. But the Orthodox Messianists believe in another failed messiah, Schneerson, some even believing him to have raised from the dead; your view once again diverges from Judaism.

    Here's what I'm convinced of:

    Messiah came to earth. God sent him. He started the new covenant -- one that didn't replace Torah, you and I agree -- but a new covenant nonetheless. He performed miracles, something neither you nor the rabbis of the Talmud deny. He performed good works, healings, and taught the people how to live according to Torah. He brought atonement for not just Israel, but all nations, such that today 1/3 the entire world knows the God of Israel. He directed his followers to follow the Torah, even applying the Torah to one's heart, rather than just outward observance. He spent his life around the Temple in Jerusalem, predicted the Temple's coming destruction (and also it's future reconstruction). Yeshua was the only person to keep the Torah perfectly. And he ascended into heaven and promised to return to Jerusalem as its king.

    He is the Messiah, he is the King of Israel.

    I hope you'll come to know him one day.

  48. Jesus (like Joshua) has come to create a way into the promised land! Like Peter writes: "...he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature ..."

    Is that what you want? Then become a worshipper "in Truth and in Spirit" and not in theory and doctrines . . . (see John 4:22- )
    This discussion also reminds me of this article:

  49. I am not from Chabad but for argument sake
    What makes you think that Schneerson isn't/wasn't the Messiah?

    "Schneerson performed miracles, spoke about the future that was fulfilled, didn't replace the Torah, performed good works, healings, and taught the people how to live according to the Torah. He directed his followers to follow the Torah, He directed his non-Jewish followers to follow the 7 laws of Noah".

    And as I said miracles doesn't prove anything.

    "Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture."

  50. Since both of us agree Schneerson was a failed messiah, I see no need to address your question about why he isn't *the* Messiah. I don't like arguing for arguments' sake. :-)

    Regarding Judaism and Messiah, again, I see divide between your view and mainstream Judaism, especially Orthodox Judaism. You suggest the Messianic idea is not a crucial one within Judaism, yet many modern Haredi fully expect Messiah to rebuild the Temple and restore Israel to her former glory and redeem her and regather Israel from dispersion -- quite the central figure if you ask me! :-)

    Maybe it doesn't matter that your view differs with modern Judaism; after all, mine does too.

    A more important matter is that Yeshua is the promised Messiah of the Tenakh, the Messiah of Judaism, and the Messiah of the nations. I'm convinced of it, and I believe with perfect faith yet more Jews will join us as G-d's kingdom comes to fruition -- not as members of a new religion, but walking out a Torah-observant life fully embodied within Judaism, perfected in faith through Yeshua the Messiah.

  51. Rabbi Schneerson isn't a failed Moshiach, he was never the Moshiach.

    And your proof that he isn't the Moshiach would probably be because he is dead well so too is Yeshu dead.

    I like how you believe in Yeshu as Messiah and god even though you can't prove it. (it's called Idolatry and trinity is just a nice name for it)

  52. Sure he was a failed Moshiach. At one point, his followers gathered in public with him and sang in unison a song proclaiming he was moshiach. He just nodded his head.

    The reasons Schneerson is not moshiach are many and provable from the Tenakh. We can discuss these if you like.

  53. I see that you are ignoring the main question and that is proof.

    About Rabbi Schneerson you seem to have proof but on Yeshu that you believe is god you look the other way when I ask. I see that it's something that you don't want to think about just in case you might not be saved from the so called hell but just imagine what will happen if Yeshu is false then it's pure Idolatry and how will you like Gehenim? (Isn't programming about thinking logically? You logic is being blocked somewhere)

    Whatever proof you have about Schneerson you can find at least as much about Yeshu.

    Fact is that the Bais Hamikdash isn't built, there is still war in the world (there is no world-wide peace) and not all people acknowledge and serve one G-d.

    Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Yeshu, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

  54. Anonymous programmer friend,

    What kind of proof would make you believe? Yeshua the Messiah accomplished things all the failed messiahs never could do. He fulfilled prophecies in the Tenakh regarding Messiah (prophecies that folks like Schneerson cannot fulfill, e.g. being born in Beit-lechem in Israel as opposed to Mykolaiv, Ukraine! :-)), He came before the destruction of the Temple just as Daniel had prophesied (yet another thing Schneerson could not do!). Yeshua performed miracles in G-d's name, brought redemption for Israel and all nations (Schneerson: fail), and has caused 1/3 the entire world to know the God of Israel (Schneerson: fail). He correctly prophesied the coming destruction of the Temple, and prophesied that Israel would reject him for a time. He followed Torah perfectly.

    If you don't believe from these things, what kind of proof would you believe? I fear there is nothing I can say that would make you believe; only G-d can change your heart.

    And that, my friend, I will be praying for daily.

    Shalom, thanks for the debate.

  55. Labels are tricky things. They are one part what we want them to mean and 9 parts what the rest of the world thinks they mean.

    For instance, did you realize that telekinesis technically exists? If television involves the transmission of imagery from remote, and telephone is the transmission of audio from remote, then telekinesis (the remote transmission of kinetic energy) is as simple as buying a 5 dollar radio controlled car at Walmart.

    However, if I were to say I had telekinetic powers because I had a radio controlled car, people would think I was a nut.

    Likewise, technically, a christian would be anyone who sees themselves as a follower of the Christ (messiah, anointed) whoever or whatever they see him to be. By such a broad generalization though, you could consider all Orthodox Jews to be Christian. They all "..believe with full faith in the coming of the Messiah and even though he tarries, await his arrival with every day"

    But calling all Orthodox Jews Christian would not be very productive. What's more important is what the rest of the world understands the label to mean.

    I don't use the term Christian myself because whatever the term means to me is pointless when the purpose of language is to convey meaning to others.

  56. "Pure And Undefiled Religion"

    "Pure religion and undefiled before G-D The Father is this, to visit the fatherless (those children who know not The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL) and widows(those who have not "experienced The Messiah and The Power{Our Father} that raised Him from among the dead") in their affliction and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the world......." (James 1:27)

    Simply, all other religion is impure and defiled.......

    And notice that "pure and undefiled" religion is "oneself(individual)", a Brother or Sister doing The Will of Our Father, led of The Holy, Set Apart, Spirit.......

    Pagan "religion" is corporate.......

    And "Brothers and Sisters" is not "religion", for what are Brothers and Sisters if not Family? Would not The Family of The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, "The Body of The Messiah", be much closer than a natural, fleshly family?

    What is declared to be "religion" today is truly the devil's playground.......

    Simply, Faith will not create a system of religion.......

    Hope is there would be those who take heed unto The Call of The Only True G-D to "Come Out of her, MY people"!

    For they will "Come Out" of this wicked world(babylon) and it's systems of religion, into "the glorious Liberty of The Children of The Only True G-D".

    They will no longer be of those who are destroying the earth(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures)" and perverting that which is Spirit(Light, Truth, Life, Love, Peace, Hope, Faith, Mercy, Grace, Miracles, etc.).

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(religion) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil one" (1John5:19) indeed and Truth.......

    Truth is never ending.......

  57. @JudahGabriel You say that “He fulfilled prophecies in the Tenakh regarding Messiah.” Now the question is did he to fulfill ALL of them?

    --Here goes Programming world--
    Imagine a Unit Test Suite (I hope you use them) only here you can’t just fix the tests by just typing some code or just putting the [Ignore] attribute on a test.
    You have Tests and Expectations in them (Asserts) and all asserts MUST PASS in order to know that the system is working the right way if you wrote your tests correctly (you know the good feeling when you see that nice green line when all the tests pass).
    But all you need is for ONE test or even one assert to fail and all you get is a long RED line showing that it failed (if you realize they don’t make it half green but all RED for just one small failed assert). Saying that I will fix the failing tests later isn’t proving that your application is working correctly on the contrary it is a big warning sign that there is a problem. (In some projects they (Policy/CI) won’t allow you to commit to SVN/Git if you have ANY failing tests).
    There are many expectations in Tanach that MUST ALL be fulfilled in order for us to know that it is indeed the Messianic age and that (.*) person is the anointed king (Moshiach) of the Messianic age. But we have to remember they all have to pass GREEN.

    Now let’s get back to this world and examine Yeshu. We will start by running some Unit Tests against Yeshu.

    1. He must be Jewish (Deuteronomy 17:15) - PASS (GREEN)
    2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah* (Genesis 49:10) - WARNING (YELLOW - Is Yeshu the biological child of Joseph?)
    3. He must be a direct Male descendant of King David and King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) and can’t be a descendant from Jeconiah (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30) – FAIL ( RED)
    a. Genealogy in the New Testament is inconsistent. This alone is a problem.
    b. Descended from David’s son Nathan Luke 3:31
    c. Descended from Jeconiah Matthew 1:11
    4. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 11:12) – FAIL (RED)
    5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27) – FAIL (RED – Last time I checked it’s not built)
    6. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3) –FAIL (RED – sorry 1/3 the world doesn’t make this pass)
    7. He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments (Ezekiel 37:24)- FAIL (RED – There is enough Jewish people that still don’t observe G-d's commandments)
    8. He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d (Isaiah 66:23) – FAIL (RED – Didn’t I just the other day speak to an Atheist)

    ******* Result: FAIL -- SCORES: PASS - 1, WARNING - 1, FAIL - 6 *******

    OK add I’ll one more test for you but it won’t really help and this isn’t a valid test (see next comment)
    1. The Messiah must be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:1) - WARNING (YELLOW – The information provided by the New Testament is not so consistent/clear on this topic)

    I know that you can add more tests and maybe with that get the pass number higher but adding more tests still won’t make all of them pass.
    And at least one of these tests can’t be fulfilled in a second coming. (Second coming doesn’t have any basis in Tanach)
    * To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

    If the information is inconsistent then we can’t really test them so I would say it’s a failed test until proven otherwise.

    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions (TESTS), then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date; no one has fulfilled every condition.

  58. Part 2 @JudahGabriel
    Now we will go to the things you brought up in your last comment. This won’t prove anything since Yeshu has no way of being the Messiah since he didn’t fulfill all the biblical Prophecies as described above. (Note: I am not trying to prove anything about Rabbi Schneerson here)

    1. About what you wrote that the “Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.” Is that even true? Was Yeshu born in Bethlehem?
    1. Micah 5:1 states “But you, Bethlehem Ephrath, who are little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth to Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.”
    Yes this verse refers to the Messiah, a descendant of David. Since David came from Bethlehem, Micah's prophecy speaks of Bethlehem as the Messiah's place of origin. Actually, the text does not necessarily mean the Messiah will be born in that town, but that his family originates from there.
    2. Now let’s look at whether Yeshu was really born in Bethlehem.
    a. Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7 claim that Yeshu was born in Bethlehem.
    b. Mark doesn’t say anything about this. (which if it is so important he should have wrote something about it)
    c. (John 7:42) John relates that some people believed the Messiah will come from Bethlehem. But for some reason he doesn’t claim that Yeshu was actually born there. This is highly unusual and leads one to suspect that John did not agree with the assertion that Jesus was a Bethlehemite. He lets stand the opposing assertion that Jesus was really of Galilean origin (John 1:46, 7:41)
    d. Except for the birth references found in Matthew and Luke, all indications, even in the writings of these two evangelists, point to the fact that Yeshu was from Nazareth.

    The information about whether Yeshu was born is inconsistent and at best very unclear.
    Yeshu did not fulfill so many essential messianic qualities, as found in Tanach that having been born in Bethlehem would be of no consequence whatsoever.


    2. “He came before the destruction of the Temple just as Daniel had prophesied” (Daniel 9:25-26)
    Do you even know how they do the calculation? If you do understand the Missionary stand on this then please explain it to me and also before you do that make sure that you can read the whole chapter Daniel 9 without anything being out of place and the problem that is at hand should be solved.
    1. If Daniel 9 is such a big proof and all the people in those days know about this prophecy then why doesn’t the New Testament ever talk about this? Why do we see that the Apostles where surprised when the decree to crucify Yeshu was made shouldn’t they have said that you must be the Messiah that Daniel was talking about?
    2. Christian use this verse to calculate the death of Yeshu which is like drawing the target after shooting the arrow and doesn’t prove anything.
    3. This chapter isn’t a Messianic prophecy at all.
    4. There is no such thing as a “360-day Prophetic Year”
    5. King James Bible (KJB) is mistranslating this verse in a few ways one of it is translating Moshiach to Messiah and not anointed like in all the other places.

  59. Part 3 @JudahGabriel

    3. “Yeshua performed miracles in G-d's name” As I said already that doesn’t prove divinity.

    4. “brought redemption for Israel and all nations” I think that is something you firmly believe in and not something that can be proven on the contrary we still see that the Jews aren’t at all redeemed.

    5. “has caused 1/3 the entire world to know the God of Israel” This doesn’t fulfill any prophecies and I think I would reward Constantine with that not Yeshu. And I would also add that Constantine or Yeshu caused 1/3 of the entire world to believe in Idolatry.

    6. “He correctly prophesied the coming destruction of the Temple” We know that in Tanach it is already prophesied about the destruction of the second Temple it’s no proof that this is a prophecy or if he just copied it from the Tanach.

    7. “and prophesied that Israel would reject him for a time” You don’t have to be a prophet to say such a thing and “for a time”? Was that even fulfilled?

    8. “He followed Torah perfectly” That is debatable. An example would be Matthew 12:1-8.
    Now finishing off, finally.

    Second Coming
    The second coming has no basis in Tanach and it’s impossible to prove such a thing so there is no reason why we should even consider it as something that will happen in the future (until such a thing happens which is unlikely) and there is no reason why we should believe in it.

  60. Now the question is did he to fulfill ALL of them?

    He fulfilled all that were to happen. There are future Messianic prophesies -- those that occur in the coming Messianic Era -- Yeshua the Messiah will fulfill them at that time, in G-d's timing.

    If this is a problem for you, consider that Judaism has long held the idea of 2 messiahs: son of Joseph, son of David. One will fulfill the Tenakh's suffering servant roles. Another will fulfill the Tenakh's physical and political king roles.

    Rabbi Kodouri of blessed memory even mentioned this in his final will, suggesting that Judaism's idea of 2 messiahs is actually one Messiah:

    The union of the 2 Messiahs, Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David, has taken place. Indeed the 2 Messiahs are one, they are one soul.

    The reason your unit tests didn't pass is because your fixture is wrong; you didn't add the proper [SetUp] conditions. :-)

  61. @JudahGabriel How did Yeshu fulfill "The anointed must be a direct Male descendant of King David and King Solomon and can’t be a descendant from Jeconiah?" Even this that is not even super natural he can't fulfill fully.

    It's nice to see that you fail to find proof in Tanach so you go to the Talmud. But you use the Talmud like a drunk uses a lamp post - not for illumination, but for support. more

    The Talmud talks about the descendant of Joseph(one of the 12 tribes of Israel). So was Yeshu a descendant of Joseph?

    Where does it say in Tanach that the messiah will be a suffering servant? (Isaiah 53 talks about the Jewish people you can even go and ask non-Jewish Biblical scholars)

    Does Yeshu even give the Image of the character in Isaiah 53?
    All the pictures I see from him he doesn't look like a man that people want to hide there face from him.
    Is a few hours on the cross called a man of pains?
    The New Testament describes people coming from all over Israel, is that called "and as one from whom men hide their face"?
    Was Yeshu a man of disease?
    Whats with "despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face".

    Isaiah 53 clearly doesn't paint the picture we know of Yeshu.

    Please show me how I should write the [SetUp] method.

  62. Side note: (from link provided) "Actually, there are ancient sources that have explicit reference to a supernatural, virgin-born savior, who dies by murder to achieve salvation for believers who can experience him by eating of his blood and body...You can read all about it in the mythologies about Mithra, Osiris, Krishna, Tammuz, Adonis, Dionysus, Bacchus, Isis, etc."

  63. @YesJewish,

    Let's look at one of your arguments. I will keep this short and address just one. In another post, we can dissect another.

    You said,


    Response: You're citing Jermiah 22's curse of Jeconiah. Later in the Tenakh, and confirmed in the Talmud and even acknowledged in the modern Jewish Encyclopedia, we find Jeconiah repented to G-d and his curse was revoked:

    -He is restored from prison
    -His son, in fact, does rule over Judah, contrary to the curse.
    -His name is restored to Jehoichin.

    The Jewish encyclopedia says this,

    Jehoiachin's sad experiences [in Babylon] changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii. 30; Pesiḳ., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b); he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140]). It was especially his firmness in fulfilling the Law that restored him to God's favor. He was kept by Nebuchadnezzar in solitary confinement, and as he was therefore separated from his wife, the Sanhedrin, which had been expelled with him to Babylon, feared that at the death of this queen the house of David would become extinct.

    Thankfully for the Sanhedrin, and for us, the house of David did not become extinct -- thank G-d -- and he had descendants, his son ruled over Judah, and Messiah came from his line.

    Your objections to Yeshua as Messiah are unfounded.


    p.s. I would especially like to address Isaiah 53 next, since Targumic material often interpreted this as a messianic passage.

  64. It's interesting to see that every time you can't find proof from Tanach you go searching through the Talmud to find proof. Does the Talmud agree with you on Yeshu too? Why do you only listen to some of the things it writes and not to every thing? Do you even know how to read a page of the Talmud? And now you are also taking proof from the Jewish encyclopedia.

    You write "His son, in fact, does rule over Judah, contrary to the curse." This isn't true, his son doesn't rule over Judah and his grandson Zerubbabel was never a *King* over Judah.

    Anyway we see that the New Testament is inconsistent with the genealogy and therefore it can't be used as proof in any direction.
    Luke 3:31 "was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David" and this is from the father side as it says in verse 23 "being the son of Joseph" and interesting enough is that Matthew 1 also stats the genealogy through Joseph but here it's Jechoniah and Solomon. Someone here isn't saying the truth.

    Also there is no evidence that Mary descends from David. Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Yeshu, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. (Numbers 1:18 and Ezra 2:59)

    So which one is the correct one? And why do you pick one over the other? And whats with the virgin birth?

  65. Why do you only listen to some of the things it writes and not to every thing?

    I would ask you the same thing about the gospels.

    you go searching through the Talmud to find proof. ... And now you are also taking proof from the Jewish encyclopedia.

    Orthodox Jewish examination of the Tanach is frequently devoid of external discussion regarding history.

    Anti-missionaries often set themselves off to the side, isolating themselves in a theological vacuum. We should not be shocked to see that the factors of history, setting, and linguistics are often not employed in their criticisms of the Apostolic Scriptures or New Testament. If they are not of the habit of employing these things in how they examine the Tanach, they will certainly not be employed when examining the Apostolic Scriptures and life of Yeshua. Ironically enough, in many cases they ignore some of their own literature which reflects various interpretations and opinions regarding key Messianic texts.

    In fact, you have done precisely this, ignoring the writings of your own rabbis and modern Judaic views regarding Jeconiah -- all in a desperate attempt to sling mud on Yeshua.


    For every supposed conflict in the New Testament, one can raise 5 in the Tenakh, and 10 in the Talmud.

    I propose that the geneological differences between Matthew and Luke are no different than the differences between the Torah and those recorded in the prophets.

    We can talk about this further if you'd like. The more faulty arguments you raise, the more I am convinced of Yeshua's Messiahship, the more I am convinced G-d will bring yet more Jews to join us Messianic Jews in worshiping the G-d of Israel through His Messiah, Yeshua.

    ...hat tip to J.K. McKee, if you're reading this!

  66. @JudahGabriel you wrote "For every supposed conflict in the New Testament, one can raise 5 in the Tenakh, and 10 in the Talmud."

    Think into this sentence and please tell whats wrong with it?
    If you can't think of anything this is really very sad and there is something wrong in what you believe in.
    Well except if you would like to tell me that you are a Pagan.

    I'll answer the other things in a another comment.

  67. @YesJewish

    Here is a book written by a fellow Jew, Gary Greenberg, that you probably need to consider:

    I only point this out to you to demonstrate that while you find there to be problems with the reliability of Apostolic Scriptures (New Testament), the same approach you take can be more readily applied to the Tanach. If you want to claim that the New Testament is pagan, such is your choice--but please be willing to consider such "paganism" in your own Tanach.

  68. @JudahGabriel,@J.K. McKee Some questions to think about.

    What is the Torah?
    What is Judaism? What is it based on?
    How can we be 100% sure that the Torah is from G-d (divine)? How can we test it?
    How do we know that it wasn’t edited by humans later on?
    How do we know that the Torah isn’t a man made book?
    Why do we have to follow everything that is written in the Torah?
    Who wrote the Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings")?
    Are they even claimed to be divine?
    How do we know that the Prophecies that the Prophets say are in fact from G-d? How can we test them?
    What is the Oral Torah?
    How do we know about the Oral Torah? Is it binding?
    How do we know that the Oral Torah was given to Moshe when G-d gave him the Torah?
    Can we follow the Written Torah without the Oral Torah?
    Why do religious Jews follow the Oral Torah?
    What is the Talmud? What’s it trying to accomplish?
    Why all the seemingly small things in the Talmud? Does it all matter?
    Is the Talmud considered the Oral Torah?
    Is the Talmud considered divine?
    Was the Talmud just made up by some Rabbis about 2000 years ago?
    I won’t answer them. You can find out more at and also

  69. JudahGabriel,@J.K. McKee

    There is a very easy way to Test if a book that is said to be from G-d (divine), really is from G-d and not a fraud.
    We know that G-d doesn't make any mistakes and that he doesn't contradict himself so you just have to find ONE mistake or contradiction in a book that is claimed to be divine and you know that it can't be from G-d. But can’t you say that maybe the book is from G-d except for these few verse? You can say that but what makes you so sure that the parts you do except isn’t the second mistake, etc...
    You claim that the New Testament is divine that’s nice, but I see that even you agree that there are contradictions in the New Testament so how can it be divine?
    You say that “for every conflict in the New Testament, one can raise 5 in the Tenakh”.
    Go ahead let’s here? I am not interested to listen to book that isn’t from G-d.
    Why do you rely on the Tanach as a valid source of your proof about Yeshu if you can’t even prove that the Tanach is divine?

    If you find ONE mistake in the Torah then it can’t be divine and that means that I don't have to follow anything that it says in there and that is the reason why we go through the Torah and make sure it is valid down until the last letter. Who wants to follow a book made up by man? Why do I have to listen to what some man has to say?
    Judaism isn’t easy, it’s not like you can just believe in some person or spirit and that’s it. Judaism has 613 commandments. Who wants to keep all of these laws if we can’t prove that it’s from G-d?

    I use the gospels because it’s YOUR only source of PROOF for all the so called prophecies in the Tanach. But no I don't use the New Testament as proof to anything because it isn't even considered a valid historical reference book.
    On the other hand YOU also use the Talmud as PROOF not me.
    The Talmud isn’t called a divine book of G-d and so you can’t bring proof from it.

    Conclusion: If there is a mistake or contradiction in the Torah then everything else isn’t important (Tanach, Talmud, your so called New Testament). No proof can be taken from it and that would also mean that believing in Yeshu as god has no source for it.

  70. It may come as a surprise to you that the Tenakh contains genealogy differences just as the New Testament does -- the Torah records one genealogy and the prophets record a different one. Please look this up for yourself.

    Another contradiction is between Samuel and Chronicles, where one says the wrath of the Lord stirred up David, and another says Satan stirred up David.

    Another is where Exodus records God speaking on Mt. Sinai "Remember the sabbath day", yet Deuteronomy records God saying, "Honor the sabbath day", and Jewish tradition holds God said both at the same time!

    Both sides must accept that we each have apparent contradictions in our Scriptures, then we can move forward with understanding.

    What we do is go back and rightly understand that Yeshua's message was a Jewish message of salvation. When the Messiah comes, will it just be for the Jews? Or will it be for the whole world? In Jewish thinking, it will be for the whole world.

    I say the Messiah has come for the Jewish people and for the whole world.

  71. We could obviously go back and forth on the questions to one another, but I will simply go to the top to prove my point of how some could use your methods in discrediting the historicity of the New Testament, to the Tanach.

    Without the Exodus from Egypt, you have no Judaism. If the Exodus really took place, why is there no Egyptian record for it?

  72. @JudahGabriel

    If you know that these are without doubt contradictions can the Torah still be considered divine?

    You wrote "the Torah records one genealogy and the prophets record a different one" Can you please provide the locations?.

    Is "Remember" and "Observe" isn't a contradiction.

    "the Lord or the Satan stirred up David" This isn't a contradiction the way we understand the Satan (an angle of G-d). While the way the Christians understand the Satan it might be a problem.

    You might want to accept contradictions in your Scriptures (we don't), so are you saying that G-d can contradict himself? He can make mistakes?

    @J.K. McKee Yup without Exodus from Egypt, there is no Judaism.
    But there are Egyptian record for it. And it's not like only one or two people left Egypt it was at least 600,000 people. Also check out

  73. I guess you are not informed as to the debate over how to translate elef in light of Ancient Near Eastern sources. Does it really mean "thousand," or "squad" or "troop"?

    Really, how could over 2 million people--including women and children--be frigtened by a mere 600 chariots (Exodus 14:7)? Maybe 100,000...

    These are the kinds of things that I have found that Orthodox Jewish scholarship just does not consider in its Torah study. I think that you anti-missionaries need to leave us alone until you get some of your own Biblical examination out of fundamentalist land.

  74. Another amusing one I discovered in my own studies, one of apparent scribe exaggeration, is from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    The Masoretic Text, upon which most Jewish and Christian bibles are based, renders Goliath as almost 9 feet tall -- a giant.

    However, the Dead Sea scrolls render him at about 6'6" -- making him 1 inch shorter than me! Wahooo! I edge out Goliath! :-)

    Also, other Jewish sources put Goliath at the 6'6", including the Jewish historian Josephus.

    The Septuagint, IIRC, recorded him at an intermediate height between the original 6'6" and the final MT's 9'0".

    The main issue here is that Orthodox Jewish fundamentalists and anti-missionaries criticize the New Testament for the smallest of details. Applying their standard to the Tenakh, they would be atheists.

    This doesn't mean the Tenakh is not God-inspired, it just means men have made errors, some deliberate, some accidental.

    I had a great deal of internal angst and spent weeks in prayer over this. I felt G-d say very clearly to me, what we have today is by His hand. While not intellectually stimulating nor answering all my questions, it was enough for me.

  75. @J.K. McKee It really is nice to here what you *feel* about how this large amount of people can be frigtened by 600 chariots. Sorry man but your *fealings* doesn't invalidate the Torah. (Did you consider How many people where in each chariot? how many ammunition did they have compared to the Jews?, etc...)

    Have you ever really learned the Talmud (except for searching over it to find proof text for Yeshu)? To say what Orthodox Jewish scholars consider in its Torah study.

    There are many things that people accused the Jewish people for and I don't think it was for being stupid. We make sure that every thing is valid and can be answered, we aren't looking to just do the Mitzvot for the fun of it.

  76. @JudahGabriel
    So where are the contradictions in the Torah the one we have? What you feel/think is amusing isn't a contradictions.

    You’re running off to the Dead Sea Scrolls because that’s all you have (and is still very week) but that is a whole other topic. And it doesn't prove an error in the text we have and you also can’t prove that that is the valid one.

    Let’s put it this way you accept a divine book that you agree has errors. So how do you prove if a book is divine? How can you prove what parts are errors and what’s not? How do you know that the book of Mormons isn’t divine or is it?

    If the reason you believe in Yeshu is because of the prayers you prayed and the feelings you had then where is the bases of your religion??? Why do you need to prove your feelings?

    Maybe G-d is trying to tell/show you something with this whole debate? Maybe he wants you to go and make research into everything we discuses here and more, you might be right, but there might be a slight chance that you’re wrong and it’s your obligation to check it out don’t just rely on your prayers. (G-d gave us a brain for a reason, Use It)

    This journey should to be with an Open Mind which I understand is very hard at the least. might be a nice place to start.

  77. Judah Himango G-d should help you on your journey for the truth if you plan to take it.


  78. Been on the journey a long time, my friend. It takes courage for a Jew to believe in G-d's Messiah, especially when the Orthodox leaders curse us divide families, saying, "You believe in Yeshua?! You're dead to us!"

    Takes courage to stand up for Messiah when the ultra Orthodox extremists persecute and harass us in Israel, or when they burn our books or bomb our children.

    Standing up to these cowards takes a lot of courage. But many Jews have made that leap to Messiah. And many continue to. I will pray you do the same.


  79. There is no basis to the concept of believing in the Moshiach in Tanach or Maimonides (as I posted before).

    I'll go even a step further and say that there is no basis to the concept of believing that there is a G-d.

    Believing == Not Knowing.
    I don't believe that there is a G-d, I know that there is a G-d.

  80. The Torah and or the Prophets do not speak of the vindication of the
    worshipers of the Messiah.

    There is nothing about having faith in the Messiah.

    No where in scripture does it say that eternal salvation is achieved through devotion to the Messiah.

  81. Messiah is one with G-d. The Torah and the Prophets do speak of faith and vindication in G-d.

    Dear blog readers, please note that Yad L'achim (as the previous commenter posted as) is an anti-Messianic organization that has committed acts of violence against Messiah's followers in Israel. They are currently on trial in Israeli courts for their vigilante violence. Please pray that G-d would open their eyes and turn these precious people to away from hatred and towards love through Messiah.

  82. @JudahGabriel

    Nowhere in Tanach does it say that a/the Moshiach is G-d or a savior. You are confusing (Moshiach) anointed with (Moshia) savior.
    Does a person’s name make him god?


    My eyes and mind is open but what you want is to pray that my heart should know "your" hearts temptations.

    Idolatry is a temptation like all others temptations.

    Just like when a person has a crush on someone, his logical side of his brain shuts down when it comes to that person. He might say that he really thought about it and he knows it is the right thing, but we know that it is impossible for him to think logically when it comes to this person.
    What is necessary for this person to do to get out of the crush? He has to overpower his emotion and stop thinking about this person the whole time.
    Then he can try to start thinking again logically. Only then can he start the process of recovering from his crush and continue is life as normal. It can and most times is a very long and painful process but it is a necessity.

    Idolatry comes from relying on ones heart as fact. It's not something that is logical.

    It's your choice and it's in your power to look into this with an open mind, a real open mind.

    The Creator of the World (G-d) should help you.

  83. Judah,

    You recommended the article "Frequently avoided questions on divinity of Yeshua". It says that some quotes say that only G-d is Israel's savior, but there are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say that G-d sent Israel saviors. I don't know how that writer explains that, but the article sounds wrong to me. I can't list quotes right now, but I have seen some I am sure.



  84. Ah, 3 anti-missionaries in 1 post -- Judah vs. the anti-missionaries. Bring it on! :-)

    I notice all 3 of you avoided talking about the shameful violence perpetrated by the anti-missionaries against Jews who believe in Messiah. Comments?

    You are worse than the Jehova's Witnesses -- at least they are nonviolent, respectful, and upfront about trying to convert you to their religion.

    You folks, on the other hand, use shameful covert tactics (see @YesJewish on Twitter), are violent (see Yad L'achim, they are on trial in Israel for violence against Messianic Jews), and disrespectful of my faith, resorting to name-calling.

    You guys shame Judaism.