2020-06-23T02:05:16 *** christopher is now known as Guest30890 2020-06-23T03:18:20 *** christopher is now known as Guest21458 2020-06-23T08:23:59 *** Bear22 is now known as BearKruz 2020-06-23T14:08:21 *** christopher is now known as Guest77566 2020-06-23T14:34:55 *** christopher is now known as Guest85451 2020-06-23T16:29:21 gmoss: are we doing a storytelling checkin? 2020-06-23T16:30:32 Justin_o: yes, but I'll need a few minutes 2020-06-23T16:31:01 cindyli danayo Justin_o: shall we say 12:40? 2020-06-23T16:31:05 gmoss: sure 2020-06-23T16:31:22 ok 2020-06-23T16:31:36 ok 2020-06-23T16:36:27 cindyli, Teddy___: what do you think about the throttling of the metrics. If we turn it off, you'll get the servers results basically. As I mentioned at planning, it defaults to fast 3G/ slow 4G speeds and reduces CPU by 4. Also that's all simulated throttling. You could also use the throttling that they use in the dev tools. 2020-06-23T16:36:47 some more info 2020-06-23T16:36:48 https://github.com/GoogleChrome/lighthouse/blob/master/docs/throttling.md 2020-06-23T16:38:31 Justin_o: this doc says "This is the standard recommendation for mobile throttling" to simulate the real use 2020-06-23T16:39:08 if so, it probably nice to have it there with a comment about the low performance score 2020-06-23T16:40:36 Justin_o: i wonder if the throttling is applied for desktop tests. haven't found in the doc 2020-06-23T16:41:16 cindyli danayo Justin_o: I'm in the standup room :) 2020-06-23T16:41:44 coming 2020-06-23T16:43:23 cindyli: here's an example of a desktop config https://github.com/GoogleChrome/lighthouse/blob/master/lighthouse-core/config/lr-desktop-config.js 2020-06-23T16:43:39 although I'd have to see how we can do that using the Github Action 2020-06-23T17:36:47 Justin_o cindyli: the test I was trying to add yesterday was already in another part of the test sequence -_- haha 2020-06-23T17:38:43 good finding :) saves the time 2020-06-23T17:40:58 yep! just looking over the events now to see what other coverage might be missing from this new work 2020-06-23T17:42:31 Justin_o cindlyli looks like the desktop test is using `Dense4G. Do you guys think we should use the same throttle level on desktop test as mobile test when testing? 2020-06-23T18:11:23 Relevant to C2LC - new Ontario curriculum for math has "coding" from Grade 1 (whatever that will mean): https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2020/06/23/new-ontario-elementary-math-curriculum-to-include-coding-starting-in-grade-1.html 2020-06-23T18:12:08 "In Grade 1, students will look at sequential coding, possibly programming the image of a caterpillar that they can move a few steps forward or backwards using arrows." - sounds like Codepillar, or a software emulation of a similar concept 2020-06-23T18:12:12 alanharnum: thank you 2020-06-23T18:12:15 pretty interesting 2020-06-23T18:12:53 sounds like our environment might be very compatible with the approach 2020-06-23T18:13:05 for the kids won’t be able to use codepillar etic 2020-06-23T18:13:29 yeah, it's funny how some of this stuff recurs - I remember doing Logo (moving the turtle back and forth, etc) in very early grades, but that was enriched parent-offered stuff in my alternative school, probably around Grade 1 or 2. 2020-06-23T18:18:10 i think i will bite my tongue in regards to part about their prioritization of “financial literacy” in early grades, alanharnum 2020-06-23T18:44:58 Teddy___: sorry, just catching up. Regarding the throttling, I'm not sure. I guess actually it might make sense to define a baseline acceptable performance on a given throttling rather than try to guess what each device type might be using. For example, some people's network speed might be faster than their home internet, or shared wifi at the coffee shop. I guess that's kind of what "budgets" are about. 2020-06-23T18:44:58 https://timkadlec.com/2013/01/setting-a-performance-budget/ 2020-06-23T18:45:27 http://v3.danielmall.com/articles/how-to-make-a-performance-budget/ 2020-06-23T18:50:17 gmoss: I saw your message above, did you still need to pair up today? 2020-06-23T18:51:04 Justin_o: if you want! I'm just adding a manual tests page and I think that's it 2020-06-23T18:51:23 depending on cindyli's review, of course 2020-06-23T18:52:24 gmoss: if there's something I can help you with sure, but if you have a handle on it, then I'll wrap up some other work. 2020-06-23T18:52:39 Justin_o: I'm good, thanks for checking in :) 2020-06-23T18:53:09 no problem :) 2020-06-23T18:56:00 gmoss, cindyli: here's the issue for adding Matomo https://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/SJRK-367 2020-06-23T18:56:34 gtirloni: would you be able to look at adding the Matomo anaylitics to the story telling tool? https://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/SJRK-367 2020-06-23T18:56:49 gtirloni: also have you ever looked at or used https://zulipchat.com 2020-06-23T18:57:30 Justin_o: sure, I can do that. thanks for creating the JIRA 2020-06-23T18:58:06 Justin_o: yep, I've used Zulip before. We used it for a outreach project at Wikimedia. People seemed to like it 2020-06-23T18:58:07 colinclark: At the WWDC keynote yesterday, Apple announced that they'll be making it easier to port existing browser extensions from other platforms to Safari 14. I couldn't find any official site about that but this recaps the announcement https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/22/apple-previews-big-update-to-safari-on-mac/ 2020-06-23T18:58:22 anyways, that could be good news for UIO+ if we decide to port to Safari in the future 2020-06-23T18:58:38 thanks for filing that Justin_o! I've also used Zulip a little for the GSoC mentors summit in 2018 2020-06-23T19:00:24 gmoss, gtirloni: cool, I wonder if it could be useful for our project. it seems like there is an IRC bridge ( https://zulipchat.com/integrations/doc/irc ) and that they have at least some concern about accessibility https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/contributing/accessibility.html 2020-06-23T19:00:51 I haven't personally used it though. 2020-06-23T19:02:34 Justin_o, Teddy___, i'm actually not sure how valuable it is to add throttling to CI for testing pull requests. Our goal of adding lighthouse CI at the pull request level is not to simulate real uses, but rather to warn developers when a pull request change have an unreasonable impact on the performance. Another point is adding throttling may slow down the CI which is not ideal. Adding throttling and simulating real use cases on both 2020-06-23T19:02:35 mobile and desktop probably make more sense if we wanna add lighthouse tests to "dev" to "master" branches. 2020-06-23T19:02:39 Justin_o: I liked it, though I have my doubts about how the more feature-rich aspects of it will translate to IRC 2020-06-23T19:03:49 gmoss: that's a good question. I guess it depends on what is lost in translation 2020-06-23T19:03:51 being able to create topics in a channel seems quite useful 2020-06-23T19:04:17 Justin_o: I would be more worried about what "noise" there would be in here as it gets translated 2020-06-23T19:04:58 I suppose as long as that's configurable it wouldn't be so bad 2020-06-23T19:05:17 gmoss: yah, the only example they showed is the straight message translation which would obscure the sender a bit because of the bot writing the message. I guess it's also a question of how hard it is to know who is actually available and how to ping them 2020-06-23T19:05:20 I found the "threaded" model of conversation organization useful for the Mentors Summit purposes 2020-06-23T19:06:30 I also wonder what effect that would have on converstations. In here (and our other channels), everything is happening in the same room, but our presence isn't fragmented and we aren't lurking in very specific places, for the most part 2020-06-23T19:07:16 e.g. if we switched to Zulip and there was a "storytelling tool" room, for example, maybe I wouldn't keep track of the "gpii" room, even though some potentially relevant stuff may happen there 2020-06-23T19:07:52 on the other hand, it would allow for more focused discussions of certain topics 2020-06-23T19:08:03 (well, any topic) 2020-06-23T19:08:22 cindyli: regarding throttling: " but rather to warn developers when a pull request change have an unreasonable impact on the performance" that's sort of why you might need the throttling otherwise it's the servers connection and hardware performance that you are testing. Perhaps for your purpose that's still okay, but then you may want to add a budget or assertion to express performance metrics to fail on. 2020-06-23T19:09:01 cindyli: with the current state of feedback that we can get from the CI, it's probably not going to be super easy to compare results across runs and PRs. So it might be better to define a limit to trigger a check failure 2020-06-23T19:09:19 cindyli: and you can do that with or without the throttling 2020-06-23T19:10:29 Justin_o: wouldn't the throttling be added on top of the servers connection and hardware performance? 2020-06-23T19:11:17 cindyli: yes, it's just a simulation. So if the server itself is throttled I suppose it might throttle it twice. For example the CPU throttling. 2020-06-23T19:12:22 gmoss: I believe you can have the conversation thread within the same room. So you could have a storytelling conversation thread in this room, along with other conversations. 2020-06-23T19:12:24 https://zulipchat.com/help/about-streams-and-topics 2020-06-23T19:13:04 It looks like in Zulip a Stream would be the equivalent of an IRC Channel, and you can have multiple topics within a stream. 2020-06-23T19:13:19 I don't know how you get things into topics though 2020-06-23T19:13:58 Justin_o: right, I'd forgotten about that part 2020-06-23T19:14:15 I suppose we could try it out and test with a different IRC channel 2020-06-23T19:14:25 Justin_o: then i don't understand what you mean by "that's sort of why you might need the throttling otherwise it's the servers connection and hardware performance that you are testing". adding throttling or not will depend on the server connection and hardware performance 2020-06-23T19:15:23 cindyli: right well I guess I mean that it might be unrealistic. E.g. the server is much faster than the average computer 2020-06-23T19:15:46 cindyli: however, I'm not sure what the performance we are getting from Github Actions runners. 2020-06-23T19:17:10 cindyli: https://help.github.com/en/actions/reference/virtual-environments-for-github-hosted-runners 2020-06-23T19:17:35 better likn 2020-06-23T19:17:36 link 2020-06-23T19:17:37 https://help.github.com/en/actions/reference/virtual-environments-for-github-hosted-runners#supported-runners-and-hardware-resources 2020-06-23T19:17:43 which seems reasonable to compare to a desktop. 2020-06-23T19:18:05 cindyli: so would you prefer to remove all of the throttling? 2020-06-23T19:23:12 Justin_o: I'm also not sure how lighthouse calculates performance scores. I should do more research and reading about it. However, if this calculation depends on the hardware, we cannot do much. what if different pull requests use different github or netlify servers that have different performance? would the score be much different? if this dependency is in place, it's a factor that's out of our control. overall, i lean towards remov 2020-06-23T19:23:12 ing throttling as i don't think it helps to mitigate this factor but adds extra CI run time 2020-06-23T19:24:22 cindyli: the GitHub virtual environments are all run with the same specs. Although there may be other variations that affect results, like network congestion or something. 2020-06-23T19:24:38 that's great 2020-06-23T19:25:08 cindyli: I'll look into removing the throttling for now, and we can add it back if needed. Or rather it's the default so we'd just remove whatever throttling config we add now if needed. 2020-06-23T19:25:46 thanks, Justin_o. let me know if you have a different opinion 2020-06-23T19:26:21 I don't know.. I'm still learning all this stuff, and it also depends on how you are using the information. 2020-06-23T19:50:22 cindyli: so tests are back up to the 80s so it was the throttling. 2020-06-23T19:50:36 cool! 2020-06-23T19:51:28 cindyli, Teddy___: do you have any thresholds that we should cause the Lighthouse CI to fail on. It could be high level like the performance and Accessibility score, or even for the individual checks that are included in the report 2020-06-23T19:52:02 I think it would be helpful to fail at some level, or it might get missed. And for the first pass I might suggest some high level values only. 2020-06-23T19:52:11 i agree 2020-06-23T19:52:18 same 2020-06-23T19:52:49 Are we able to take averages of multiple runs? 2020-06-23T19:53:00 cindyli, Teddy___: great, do you have any values you'd like to suggest, or would you prefer I come up with those for now and you can see how it looks in the PR? 2020-06-23T19:53:10 Teddy___: we can do multiple runs and it reports the median score 2020-06-23T19:53:19 by default it does 3 runs 2020-06-23T19:54:54 Justin_o: from my previous tests with lighthouse, at least for performance scores, I found it's common that scores vary in 5 points. but as CI gives a median score which might reduce the variation 2020-06-23T19:55:36 Justin_o: please go ahead to come up with bottom line scores. more CI runs will tell us if they are reasonable. thanks 2020-06-23T19:55:42 cindyli: hopefully.. I hope there's less variance too because there isn't anything else running in the virtual environment 2020-06-23T19:55:54 cindyli: sounds good 2020-06-23T19:56:07 thanks, Justin_o. this is very helpful! 2020-06-23T19:56:11 From my experience performance would max at 81 (this is a rare occurrence). Most of the time the best performance score I would get is 78 or 79. So I'm thinking of a threshold of 74? 2020-06-23T19:56:18 cindyli, Teddy___: by the way here's an example of an unthrottled run https://storage.googleapis.com/lighthouse-infrastructure.appspot.com/reports/1592941588744-96471.report.html 2020-06-23T19:56:57 whoa, apparently, servers are faster than our personal machines 2020-06-23T19:58:34 Justin_o: That’s pretty interesting. I guess it’s safe to assume that they’re introducing some kind of Chrome extension compatibility? As you say, that could be great for UIO+ 2020-06-23T20:00:09 cindyli: In that case maybe a performance threshold of 80 is more appropriate. 2020-06-23T20:00:23 For accessibility score it was always 100 except for the time when we used `tabindex` and it dropped to 98. So i'm thinking 100 should be the threshold for accessibility score. 2020-06-23T20:01:25 Teddy___: ya, i'm fine with suggested scores 2020-06-23T20:03:03 Justin_o: I do think we’re probably due to consider migrating off IRC before too long 2020-06-23T20:03:16 I imagine trying to keep them both running with a bridge might not be necessary 2020-06-23T20:03:36 should we find a client for something like Zulip or Matrix.org that is sufficiently accessible out of the box 2020-06-23T20:04:01 I quite like Matrix.org, and the fact that it can have multiple clients on the same protocol 2020-06-23T20:04:05 but I have no idea of the quality of them 2020-06-23T20:04:20 I’m sure our Mozilla colleagues would have more experience now that they’ve switched 2020-06-23T20:04:34 Teddy___, cindyli: that makes sense 2020-06-23T20:04:36 if you find a client you really think is good and viable for us, we should do an audit and then consider switching 2020-06-23T20:06:03 colinclark: sounds good, thanks. I haven't looked into Matrix.org yet.. I'll have to check that out. 2020-06-23T20:06:52 It’s something that greatislander and I talked about a while back. Once he’s got time to surface for air after the platform cooperative development kit work is finished, I’m sure he’ll have some suggestions. 2020-06-23T20:09:53 yah it would be great to hear his thoughts and suggestions too 2020-06-23T20:13:57 I would love to dig into this a bit in July :) 2020-06-23T20:15:39 :) 2020-06-23T20:18:44 fluid-everyone: I sent a note to the IDRC everyone list just clarifying the NRC project kick-off meeting next week, after having a brief conversation with Jutta 2020-06-23T20:19:22 in short, unless you’re going to be working on the project or have a real passion to attend, you don’t need to worry about attending 2020-06-23T20:19:36 or figuring out when it actually is, as I am still trying to do :) 2020-06-23T20:33:20 anyone else noticing IRCCloud is not notifying on new messages sometimes? I think it's the second day in a row for me.. and yesterday they disconnected from freenode 2020-06-23T20:52:45 gtirloni: I haven't had any issues! is it only for certain terms or even mentions? 2020-06-23T20:55:12 gmoss: mentions, I think today I didn't get any notifications on my phone or the web UI... it's weird but glad it's not happening for everybody :) 2020-06-23T20:55:34 gtirloni: weird! I've been getting both today without issue, fwiw 2020-06-23T20:55:57 i.e. both mentions and highlighted words, on both computer and phone