2009.06.03 13:00 - Nature v. Nurture v. No Self

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    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    Questa Blackheart: Hi.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey there
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry I went to email because no one was here
    Questa Blackheart: That's OK
    Questa Blackheart: What is this?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello roberto, sara
    genesis Zhangsun: this is a discussion group exploring the nature reality
    genesis Zhangsun: *of reality
    Questa Blackheart: OK. Sounds interesting.
    Roberto Couturier: sit sara
    genesis Zhangsun: welcome
    Roberto Couturier: thank you
    genesis Zhangsun: first I have to mention that all of our conversations are made public
    genesis Zhangsun: on our wiki
    genesis Zhangsun: so if you participate you will become part of this public transcript
    Questa Blackheart: I see.
    genesis Zhangsun: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    genesis Zhangsun: we post our logs so others who are part of our community can read
    Questa Blackheart: Is it OK if I join in?
    genesis Zhangsun: sure please
    Questa Blackheart: Thanks.
    genesis Zhangsun: it is completely open to the public
    Sara Calcutt: grazie e arriverci
    genesis Zhangsun: So Questa how did you find us?
    Questa Blackheart: I saw a few people here and came to see what was happening.
    Questa Blackheart: You discuss the nature of reality? Sounds like a big topic.
    genesis Zhangsun: indeed :)
    genesis Zhangsun: we do it from all different perspectives
    genesis Zhangsun: we are open to all perspectives
    genesis Zhangsun: some come into it from science others from spirituality
    genesis Zhangsun: and most of us a combination of both
    Questa Blackheart: Where do you come from?
    genesis Zhangsun: me personally?
    Questa Blackheart: Yes.
    genesis Zhangsun: I am from California
    Questa Blackheart: I meant science or spirituality. :)
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry
    Questa Blackheart: np
    genesis Zhangsun: I am interested in contemplation, I am agnostic and I appreciate and accept a scientific world view
    Questa Blackheart: So you wouldn't call yourself spiritual then?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
    Questa Blackheart: Hi
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    genesis Zhangsun: hmm spiritual is very broad but yes I would say I am also spiritual
    Questa Blackheart: I see.
    genesis Zhangsun: there are definitely things beyond the explanation of science
    genesis Zhangsun: what about you Questa?
    Questa Blackheart: I guess I have a spiritual side...
    Questa Blackheart: But I am also curious about science.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes in what way curious about science?
    genesis Zhangsun: HI Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi Gen
    Questa Blackheart: Well...
    Questa Blackheart: I've always been interested in how hte universe works.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes and how do you think it works :)
    Mickorod Renard: I think we all have interests in that too,,and time, dreams..and all sorts,,conciousness too
    Questa Blackheart: Where would I start? :-)
    Mickorod Renard: all those things that the answers seem to be elusive to us
    Questa Blackheart: From a spiritual point of view I think we create the universe ourselves.
    Mickorod Renard: from an @ourselves' ,,do you mean that you have created the personal narrative of the universe you exist in,,or ourselves ..in that we as a collective have created it?
    Questa Blackheart: Is there a difference?
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mar
    Mickorod Renard: well..perhaps not in anyway obvious,,but was thinking back into the quantum time line
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Winston
    Winston Haystack: HI
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Questa Blackheart: I'm not sure what you mean by quantum time line.
    genesis Zhangsun: me neither
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Maybe we can back up a bit seems like a few new people here :)
    Mickorod Renard: well..like if you follow time back..like down a funnel towards the big bang...if it existed,,,,,,,well if you reverse that to when you were born,,then is your universe ,yours
    genesis Zhangsun: So first I have to say all of our transcripts are public on our wiki
    genesis Zhangsun: \http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    genesis Zhangsun: that is where our chatlogs are posted
    genesis Zhangsun: as well as an explanation about the meditation practice we are exploring
    genesis Zhangsun: every fifteen minutes we take a 90 second silence
    Questa Blackheart: Thank you Mickorod
    genesis Zhangsun: this is an extension of our central practice which is to take a 9 second break every 15 minutes
    Mickorod Renard: I have given out some note cards Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: okay thanks Mic
    genesis Zhangsun: so what we do in those 9 seconds is up to you but we are exploring the idea of "dropping what you have" to be what you are
    Questa Blackheart: The bell lasts for 90 seconds though?
    genesis Zhangsun: hence "playing as being"
    genesis Zhangsun: no the bell does not last 90 seconds but the silence and then there is a reminder when the 90 seconds are over
    genesis Zhangsun: any questions?
    Questa Blackheart: Sorry, that's what I meant.
    genesis Zhangsun: about the practice or about anything, the universe, whatever ;)
    Winston Haystack: Drop what you have?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed
    genesis Zhangsun: think about the ways in which you define yourself
    genesis Zhangsun: I am an engineer, I am asian, I am a mother, I am a wife
    genesis Zhangsun: and see those things as not what you necessarily are but what you "have"
    genesis Zhangsun: you have the ability to code, you have a child, you have a husband
    genesis Zhangsun: but are you really limited by those things?
    genesis Zhangsun: do they completely define what you are?
    genesis Zhangsun: it is an open question
    genesis Zhangsun: our belief is that if you hold your identifications more lightly, you might find there is more to who you really are
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: hey sophia
    sophia Placebo: hi yak , hi all :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you think about that Winston and Questa?
    Winston Haystack: I like it
    Winston Haystack: Very similar to existentialism
    Questa Blackheart: What are you other than those things?
    genesis Zhangsun: thats the exploration :)
    Winston Haystack: I am none of them
    Questa Blackheart: So what are you Winston?
    Winston Haystack: I am nothing
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Questa Blackheart: Nihilism?
    Mickorod Renard: if I can give a personal example,,very quickly
    Winston Haystack: Not nihilism
    Mickorod Renard: I have found that when i give myself some time,,to drop those definaitions,,,i seem to be able to see the world, nature etc a little more clearly,,without all the busy noise of lifes expectations
    Questa Blackheart: Sorry. I will have to go.
    Questa Blackheart: Maybe I can come back another time.
    Mickorod Renard: bye questa
    genesis Zhangsun: please do questa
    sophia Placebo: bye questa
    genesis Zhangsun: we meet every six hours :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes please
    genesis Zhangsun: 7am, 1pm, 7pm, 1am
    Questa Blackheart: Thank you.
    Questa Blackheart: Bye.
    genesis Zhangsun: so Winston what do you mean by you are nothing
    genesis Zhangsun: I like that
    Winston Haystack: I'll try to explain
    Winston Haystack: If we are not what we call our identities, we are then left with nothing
    Winston Haystack: We are an interpretation
    Winston Haystack: That comes from our social situation
    Winston Haystack: We are made up, so to speak
    Winston Haystack: Social constructs
    Winston Haystack: But these identites really feel like they are real
    Winston Haystack: And they are just an illusion
    Winston Haystack: Thus, we are nothing
    genesis Zhangsun: we are avatars :)
    genesis Zhangsun: literally
    genesis Zhangsun: is that what you mean?
    genesis Zhangsun: skins wrapped around space?
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Winston Haystack: Hmmm
    Winston Haystack: I'm not sure yet
    Mickorod Renard: do you think our conciousness is all that exists Win?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or you mean that we just believe that we are individualÂ´s but we are highly determined by the social factors in our ontogenesis ?
    sophia Placebo: if an eagel was raised by a chicken , never learned to fly , lived like a chicken but didnt feel like a chicken , when he discover the illusion then is he a chicken or an eagel or non ? is that your question win ?
    Winston Haystack: I know some philosophy, and this is where I am getting these ideas
    genesis Zhangsun: are you sure about that Win?
    genesis Zhangsun: that your ideas are just a product of some of your knowledge about philosophy
    genesis Zhangsun: I bet a lot of people have read those same books and never interpreted it to have the same meaning
    Winston Haystack: I'll try to explain
    Winston Haystack: Our identy of gender, say- masculine or male is kind of like a different world than say a female gender world. Which sugggests gender is not an essence per se as much a asocial construct, Thus the saying "existence precedes essence"
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that makes sense
    Winston Haystack: Identity is sometimes understood to be an essence, that is- as somethig necessary and not contingent, or that we cant change it
    genesis Zhangsun: I also believe that our worlds, our notions about ourselves are experientially constructed but I am not sure if that constructions is entirely social or whether genetics has something to do with it too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you read much about existentialism ?
    genesis Zhangsun: the nature v. nurture argument
    Winston Haystack: It is, imo, very changeable and a different world will show up for with any identity change. The flux of the identity suggests that there is nothing grounding our identies as necessary. Thus, there is no ground , nothing there
    genesis Zhangsun: reminds of the zen saying about the mountatin
    genesis Zhangsun: any of you know that one?
    Yakuzza Lethecus listens
    Winston Haystack: There might be some genetic structure that determines some form of identity, imo it doesn't support a necessary identity, just a form of one
    genesis Zhangsun: *mountain
    Mickorod Renard: I think its a great concept, but where do we move on from this line of thought,,what positives can we take from it Win?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Win I agree re genetics
    genesis Zhangsun: and identity
    genesis Zhangsun: so the zen saying about the mountain
    genesis Zhangsun: it goes: first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then the mountain reappears
    genesis Zhangsun: I take this to mean that first we believe are identification are real
    genesis Zhangsun: we buy into our illusions, our assumptions as real
    Winston Haystack: Understanding we are nothing underneath should make us more compassionate, we can see someone and know that that could be us. We are kind of all connected in a sense, that we can be anyone
    Winston Haystack: and still, we are none of them
    genesis Zhangsun: then we see they are socially constructed that they are malleable
    genesis Zhangsun: the mountain disappears
    genesis Zhangsun: finally the mountain reappears when you can see what in fact is real under all of those assumptions
    Mickorod Renard: thats good Win...we often discuss how filters block our true view of the world we live in,,an identity is like a filter
    Winston Haystack: Yes Miko,
    Winston Haystack: Micko
    Mickorod Renard: ;
    Mickorod Renard: )
    sophia Placebo: like that story gen
    genesis Zhangsun: ty its just my interpretation of course I believe it is a koan of some sort
    genesis Zhangsun: so really there is no "answer"
    genesis Zhangsun: I have to go to a team meeting!
    Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt like to say there is no answer,,as that would suggest we have no meaning
    sophia Placebo: bye gen
    genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you all here
    Mickorod Renard: bye gen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    genesis Zhangsun: bye!
    Winston Haystack: Bye
    sophia Placebo: how so mick?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,what drives us here is the search for answers
    Mar Rodas: bye every body
    Mickorod Renard: we all know that it may be frugal,,but its fun
    sophia Placebo: bye mars
    Winston Haystack: Bye
    Mickorod Renard: bye Mar
    sophia Placebo: nods
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    sophia Placebo: well win i dont know if im nothing would makes me more compashionate
    Mickorod Renard: I am afraid I have to leave too
    sophia Placebo: bye mick
    Mickorod Renard: bye everyone
    Winston Haystack: Bye
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so miles ur reading sartre ?
    Winston Haystack: Miles?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ups
    Yakuzza Lethecus: winston
    Yakuzza Lethecus: omg, how came miles to my mind
    sophia Placebo: hehe
    Winston Haystack: I was banned because of him
    Yakuzza Lethecus: from PH ?
    Winston Haystack: No, from Thothica
    Winston Haystack: Simulat banned me thinking I was him, we hardly look the same
    Winston Haystack: Only similar last names
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
    sophia Placebo: i better be off too
    Winston Haystack: Me too, Bye
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok then
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    sophia Placebo: bye
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cya all on PH
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