How To Add $50,000 To Your Next Property

Adding $50,000 to your next investment property is a great way to help grow your portfolio faster with less risk. But how can is be done?

When investing in property, one of the best ways to move from one property to the next property is to invest using the equity from the first property that you purchased. And you can either wait for the market to go up in value and for your property to go up in value or you can add that value yourself and that’s what we’re going to be talking about today.

Today, I have with me none other than Ben Everingham, the buyer’s agent.

Ryan: Hey, Ben. How’s it going?

Ben: Thanks, Ryan, for the intro.

Ryan: Today, we’re going to be talking about how to add $50,000 to your next investment property. So we’re going to be looking at some different ways that you can purchase an investment property and quickly add some equity to it so that you can move on and invest again or you can just lower your loan-to-value ratio or whatever it is that you want to do.

Hey, Ben, well, I guess, let’s just talk about; apart from the fact that people may want equity to go again, are there any other benefits to instantly adding this sort of equity to a property?

Ben: I think the number one thing for me and the reason why I’ve sort of created this strategy for our clients is from a risk perspective. I feel, like we’ve talked about this personally, but I feel less and less comfortable with debt these days. And I feel less comfortable with property investors in general being in debt. And that’s probably based on having a hundred conversations with investors from all over Australia a month. And some of those people telling me about their financial situation.

I’m not a bank and I’m not a mortgage broker, but I look at some of these people and I kind of scratch my head and go, “What happens when interest rates get to 7% or 8% or what happens when banks start recalling money and start looking at all those people that are at 95% or 90% and the market’s dropped by 20%?” You’re kind of in that situation where you’re a bit stuck. I’m just trying to create, using this equity-based approach, a bit of a bridge between your loan-to-value ratio.

Ryan: So it’s kind of a way of hedging your bets, I guess, against the future. Obviously, being super leveraged can be great to grow your portfolio quite quickly, but it does bring with it risk if interest rates rise.

Then, obviously, you’re more exposed, you’re going to feel the effects of that more than someone who would have less debt. And also, if something bad happens and the banks decide to start recalling loans, chances are, they’re going to probably go after the people that have high loan-to-value ratios first and recall their loans because they’re the riskiest ones. So it’s kind of like taking yourself out of the firing line of something that may happen in the future. Have I got it right?

Ben: Yeah, correct. I don’t mean to start this video as a dooms day because I feel like, and we’ve talked about this, that the market is going to be extremely strong for at least the next 7-8 years in Australia. But where I’m coming from, I just, you know, getting a little bit older and getting a bit more sophisticated as an investor.

Ryan: You’re so old, man.

Ben: I always say this. I’ve got to stop it.

Ryan: But that’s the thing. The thing is, right, I’m 28. You’re 30. Most people who are investing are older than us and later in their lives and they don’t want to be highly leveraged and have huge amounts of risk. Some you people are happy to do that because if they lose everything, they can bounce back.

They’ve got the years to do it. But not everyone has that. So it makes sense that people would want to avoid risk. And so, really, adding $50,000 of equity can work for both the risky investor who just wants to grow quickly as well as the risk-adverse investor who wants that $50,000 buffer so if the market goes down or if they have to sell the property or any situations happen, they know they’ve added $50,000 of value that they can sell out at any point and they’re not going to lose any money.

So it makes a great deal of sense. Let’s get into it. Let’s talk about some of the ways that people can add equity to their next investment property. And we were talking before the show about the first strategy, which I think is a great one if we can find the right property. So I’ll let you tell us about it.

Ben: Beautiful. So I think the lowest hanging piece of fruit – because you’re always looking for the highest return of your investment for the least amount of work, least amount of risk and least amount of money out of your own pocket. What I’ve identified from buying a fair bit of property this year is that in some of the more premium suburbs – the suburbs where the average price is sort of between $400,000 and $550,000 for example. In Brisbane, just as a market –

Ryan: Okay, I was going to say, what kind of area are we talking about? Because in Sydney, that’s like the bottom of the barrel. Like, you probably can’t even get anything for that.

Ben: In Sydney, I’m talking about Orange, at the back of the Blue Mountains there.

Ryan: 4 hours drive out of Sydney. A little commute each day.

Ben: Yeah. Have you heard of Hobart? [inaudible 4:51] out of Sydney now, is it?

Ryan: Yeah.

Ben: Basically, I’m talking about – I’ll use Brisbane as an example today because I’ve been spotting these opportunities in that market and it’s basically where you find and existing 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom home, for example, with a huge internal floor plan. Like a floor plan basically like I describe it is, a floor plan that’s too big for a 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom house.

For whatever reason, the person at the time of constructing it just built something that was probably overcapitalized at that time. But now, you can look at changing that internal floor plan and maybe turning the 3 bed, 1 bath into that 4 bedroom, 2 bathroom home.

The way to identify that gap in the market is when the 3-bedroom home, for example, is selling for $400,000 and the 4-bedroom home is selling for $460,000 on average. So somewhere where the gap is significant, like a $60,000 or $70,000 gap. Which, again, those properties close to the CBD definitely have that bigger gap at the moment.

Ryan: Just to clarify for everyone who’s listening. We’re talking about converting a house that has 3 bedrooms and 1 bath into a house that has 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms, but without actually adding any extensions on to the property. So you’re doing it under the existing roof and your’e just moving walls around and stuff like that. Is the second bathroom going to be an en suite?

Ben: Yeah. Ideally it would be an en suite, yup.

Ryan: Okay. So we’re looking to try and find those properties because, obviously, if you don’t have to add to the extension of the property, you don’t have to extend the roof and all of that sort of stuff. There’s obviously a lot less council hoops that you’re going to have to jump through. It’s going to be a lot less expensive because you’re not building another roof. You’re not building more walls. You’re just building some internal walls and keeping to the structure of the existing property.

The first thing that Ben was saying is you need to find the area where there is that difference between 3-bedroom and 4-bedroom houses. So you want the 3 bedrooms to be a decent amount cheaper than the 4 bedrooms so you know, “Okay, I’m going to buy a 3-bedroom. I’m going to spend X amount to turn it into a 4-bedroom, 2-bath. I need to know that there’s still profit at the end of that if I want to go ahead and sell that property.”

So what are some techniques that people can use to kind of find out where these suburbs are? Is it really just going on to, looking at the suburb and comparing 3 to 4-bedroom houses?

Ben: Yeah. I think once you’ve identified the suburb or handful of suburbs that you’re going to target, it’s then, as you said, probably the easiest way, if you don’t have access to sales history data, would be to jump on and begin looking at the average gap between a similar level of quality of 3-bedroom, 1-bathroom to 4-bedroom, 2-bathroom homes.

Let’s say you’re targeting a 3-bedroom brick home with a tiled roof on a slab, then you want to go find a 4-bedroom brick home tiled on a slab that you can compare it against in terms of the same sort of quality of finishes and fixtures and renovation as well.

Ryan: Yeah, so it’s really, there is some leg work involved in this. But what we’re looking for is that properties that are going to give us the maximum return with the least amount of risk. That’s not going to be any property out there. It’s something that you’re going have to spend some time searching for. So it’s not going to be easy to find these, but they definitely are out there.

Let’s say that we do find these suburbs. And I’m sure that there’s a tool out there – I can’t think of it off the top of my head where you can see the median house prices for 3 beds, 4 beds, 2 beds in a suburb. So you could always do that to try and narrow down your suburbs for further searching.

Ben: Sorry to interrupt, but when you jump on now, like’s data analytics is so strong now. They’ve really incorporated RP Data’s information into the panes. So you can jump on a property, then click into the suburb analytics and it will have the difference between the 3 and 4 bedders. And when you see the average difference at $50,000, $60,000, $70,000, that’s the easiest way you can possibly identify it without looking through hundreds of listings in each suburb.

Ryan: Okay, cool. So let’s say we find the suburb. How do we find these houses that have larger-than-average floor plans?

Ben: Basically, unfortunately, it’s a numbers game and you’ve got to begin inspecting these properties. The cool thing about Brisbane is a lot of the real estate agents actually provide a floor plan on or So you can jump on the floor plan and have a bit of a look before you even get to the property and waste your time inspecting.

What you’re really looking for is, or what I look for when I’m out there doing it, I’m looking for either an undercover outdoor area at the back of the property where the existing roofline of the property actually covers an entire al fresco or outdoor entertaining area.

That means that they’ve put the slab down and the slab’s gone out that whole undercover area actually has the same slab as the house. And the roofline is legal height and under the existing roof so it’s not a dodgy little piece of tin or something like that.

Ryan: So it’s not like one of those wooden decks that people build with the see-through plastic roofs or something like that. You’re looking for one where they’ve built the whole house and the whole roof out, but a portion of that is actually an outside al fresco area.

Ben: Exactly.

Ryan: And so, I’m guessing that the idea is then to put walls up around that and to turn that into part of the internal house, is that right?

Ben: That would be one really easy way to do it. And then, from there, if you ever want to extend out, you can put one of those, you know, dodgy little al fresco areas.

Ryan: Wooden decks with the plastic roof. You can put one of those on to keep the outside al fresco area.

Can I ask you about that? With, I guess, all of these ideas, is there something that you need council approval for to put those walls up and stuff like that? And if we’re, let’s say it’s not the outside area, but we’re just moving around internal walls, are we going to need council approval for that as well?

Ben: In terms of the internal walls, you can do whatever you wish with the internal walls. As long as they’re legal height, council won’t have a problem with it. But when you start talking about converting what was an al fresco on the original plan that was certified by council, you just want to touch base with the town planner and make sure you get that certification before you start the work.

Because, let’s say you don’t get it, a real estate agent, if it’s not certified, legally, can’t advertise it as a 4-bed, 2-bath and a valuer legally can’t take that into consideration when they do the re-valuation so you lose your money by not getting it certified properly at the start.

Ryan: Yeah. So you want to get it certified properly. I guess I wanted to make that clear to people.

So the easiest way is to find one with that al fresco area that you could convert. What are some other methods?

Ben: A lot of the older properties in Brisbane, for example, have ridiculously large – like, I’m talking about ridiculously large, like bedroom-sized laundries for no apparent reason.

Ryan: Yup. Yeah.

Ben: And sometimes those laundries are adjoining living areas and things like that. So another way that you can do this is to find that oversized living area with an oversized laundry and get rid of the laundry and basically, you know, box up that side of the house type ting and covert that into a 4th bedroom and a 2nd bathroom. Because it’s a laundry already, it means that the plumbing is already there and that can save you some money as well.

On top of that, sometimes you can look at, for example, 2-car garage under the existing roofline again. Or same as the back, like a open 2-car garage which exactly the same as the al fresco we talked about.

The back is under the existing roofline with the existing slab. Again, you definitely want to get that certified. You see 19 out of 20 properties in Brisbane that have the garage converted into a 4th bedroom are completely illegal and that’s why you see them all the time when they’re being listed, they’re still being sold as 3-bedders so you want to make sure that you get that council approved because there is some thing around set backs where the bedroom can be located against the boundary line and stuff.

So that’s, again, just a simple question for a town planner during your due diligence period, will give you the answer to that as well.

Ryan: Okay. So one thing that I haven’t heard is basically, building walls and moving walls. So we’ve talked about the al fresco area. Obviously, enclosing that in. We’ve talked about converting garages or converting laundries into 4th bedrooms. But would there be any situations where you would divide up a living room and you would put in an extra wall in order to convert it into a bedroom? Or take an existing bedroom and cut in half. Are there these scenarios as well?

Ben: They’re the lowest hanging piece of fruit. Like, they’re the ones that we’re looking for. We do the other 3 things that we just talked about before, but we’re always looking for a larger internal living are that we can easily convert. So that is the cheapest way to do it because your’e literally putting up a couple of walls against some existing walls. It’s super simple to do that.

Ryan: Okay. So, really, that’s the ideal. It’s what you want – to be able to add a couple of internal walls. Not necessarily to convert a garage or to convert an al fresco. I guess, they’re all good if you can find any of them.

Ben: There’s plenty of examples of properties in Brisbane where people have taken it from a 4-bedroom house, 2-bath or 4-bed, 2-bath house back to a 3-bedroom, 1-bathroom home because they want for their family and their lifestyle a bigger living area. So often, you’ll find places where you can even see where the existing walls used to be and it’s just as simple as going in and replacing those walls again.

Ryan: And putting it back up.

Ben: Yup. And they’re the ones that we look for for our clients. Because the cost of doing that is insignificant compared to the return.

Ryan: Yup. Okay. This is a great idea and obviously, if people want to explore it in more detail, we’re not going to be able to fully cover the ins and outs in this particular video. But just one question to close off this idea is; how hard is it to manage the builders and to get the design done? Do people need to go to architects and stuff like that to get the plans done for these walls and to get them built? Is it difficult?

Ben: Obviously, you want a licensed builder doing the work on your behalf so that everything, again, is certified and signed off if anything ever happens in the future. But the reality is, your property manager, if you’re inter-state, should be able to organize that on your behalf. Just in terms of getting a builder out there, getting the trades out there to quote it and to bring back a business case for you.

If you’re local and you want to get your hands dirty, then it’s just a case of getting a builder out there, getting their thoughts on it and then having that builder organize trades or organizing the trades yourself.

Ryan: So this sounds like a really great idea. Obviously, we can’t go into all detail about this, but you guys can get a builder out to check it out and to tell you guys what you need to do or if you’re out of state, then obviously, you can get your property manager to organized those builders and get quotes and things like that.

Converting a property from a 3-bedroom, 1-bathroom into a 4-bedroom, 2-bathroom is really low-hanging fruit. And if you do your research correctly and invest in the right area where you already know that there’s that difference between 3-bedroom and 4-bedroom houses, then obviously, there’s potential to add $50,000 or maybe even more to those properties.

Do you see, when you do it for your clients, do you usually add around $50,000 or is it more? Is it less?

Ben: It’s really depending on the purchase price. In some instances, like on a $400,000 property, it might add $40,000 worth of value. Where on a $500,000 and $550,000 property, it might add up to $70,000 or $80,000. So, obviously, the more you pay, the more value it adds in that area.

Ryan: Yeah. You can see that in the extremes. If you buy a $90,000 house in some rural area and you do it, it might add $10,000 of value or something like that. As you get up the spectrum and invest in more expensive properties, then there’s more money to be made.

Let’s say that we don’t want to do this strategy for one reason or another, what are some other ways that people can add value to their next investment property?

Ben: So, I think for those people that are considering buying their next investment property at some point in the next 5 years, the easiest thing you can do is identify the stage of the current property cycle and buy in a rising stage.

What I mean by that is, you know, however many years ago, after the GFC, you would have bought a property in Sydney and you hear about all these “investors” in Sydney that doubled their money over a 4-year period, but the reality is that they just own property in Sydney. [Inadible 17:37] I don’t think they saw that coming at the right market at the right time.

Ryan: Yeah. The right market. Well, I think they’ll say they saw it coming. But let’s face it, we didn’t know that Sydney was going to boom like that. Otherwise, everyone would have invested in there. I think the people who own property in Sydney, very few of them knew how well it was going to do. But good on them for achieving that. But obviously, yeah, getting into a market that is going to go up like Sydney, it would be ideal because then you’re not going to get $50,0000 overnight, but over time, maybe 12 months, 2 years or something, you could get that amount of growth.

Ben: We’ve seen examples of this all over Australia. Perth, obviously, pre-commodity prices coming down. It was going crazy for 7 years and everybody that own property there did really well. Darwin had the same thing. Melbourne’s kind of going through something similar. Brisbane’s in a stage where it’s looking at doing the same thing. So it’s about just timing that cycle. Getting in as close to the bottom as possible and then riding that growth up. If your strategy is long term buy-and-hold, it can be fantastic.

Let’s say Brisbane’s average growth is 5% per year. Sydney’s is 7%. Melbourne’s is 6.5%. On average, over the last 15 years, you just expect a slightly above average return for that short growth period and then default something like back to historical prices.

Ryan: Yeah. And we can do an entire video about this or multiple videos. In fact, I’ve got a series on how to research suburbs to kind of identify these suburbs. So if you guys want, go ahead, go to You can check it out. That course is available inside my membership site and me and Ben have done videos on it in the past as well, which you can go ahead and check out.

Obviously, investing in an area that is likely to grow in the next couple of years, then you can get that growth in that period and you’ve got that buffer for yourself where you’ve got that equity that you can go ahead and move on. Go ahead, check out our other videos if you want to hear more about that. Because otherwise, this video and this episode is just going to for hours. So we’ll leave it at that.

What else?

Ben: In terms of, again, your next easiest opportunity, buying an ugly duckling and doing a basic cosmetic renovation of it. I’m not talking about ripping out every internal wall, re-doing every single thing in the house. But, you know, re-painting, re-carpeting, sanding floorboards. Potentially looking at a kitchen, a bathroom type thing.

Keeping that renovation under the $30,000 mark and only doing that renovation if you can justify that for every dollar you put into the renovation, you’re going to get at least $2 back out. So you double your money straightaway.

Ryan: Yeah. And I think there are so many opportunities to that and to do nice things on the cheap. Sometimes you can go in and it’s a pink bathroom and you might not have enough money to completely rip out the bathroom, but there’s tile paint these days. You can paint those pink tiles white and it’s going to make a huge difference to the value of the property.

So there is a lot of different little ways that you can take a cosmetic renovation and I think what Ben means by that is something where you don’t have to structurally change anything. So you’re just painting it, you’re putting new carpets in, you’re maybe replacing kitchen, bathroom or maybe just improving them by painting them or something like that.

But something where you’re not up for a lot of structural cost and all the money that you’re putting in is to make that property look better and you’re going to get more than what you spend back.

Ben: Absolutely. As you said, you can really do it on the DIY these days. I remember a property I bought a little while ago with my wife when she was pregnant with our first bub and we called it “the granny shack”. I think I’ve talked to you about it before.

Ryan: No. I didn’t know “the granny shack”.

Ben: The granny shack. So we bought it off, it was basically a deceased estate. The old lady had passed away on the house and that’s another story for another time. But we thought the place was dead set haunted for about the first 4 months until she realized we were actually half decent people, and then, she sort of left us alone. But some weird stuff was happening there. Like, TVs turning on in the middle of the night and things like that. Like, weird stuff.

But we basically got into the bathroom and I just went to Bunnings, literally, and bought some of that tile paint. And I remember sitting in the bathroom painting it myself and I bought this cheap paintbrush, which was a massive mistake. So there’s these strands of hair, like paintbrush strands, in this tile paint.

But when the young couple that came and bought it off us 12 months later came to the property, it presented really, really well and they didn’t notice some of the hacks that I’d made to it accidentally, because I’m not a tradesman and my wife says I actually deteriorate the value of anything we do renovation-wise. But they liked the way that it presented and they’d pay an extra $110,000 12 months later on a principal place of residence.

To renovate that entire house cost us $15,000 or $16,000. Kitchen, bathroom, everything. And that was a really good way to sort of turn that money over so that we could move into a house that we really wanted to live in type thing.

Ryan: Yeah. Cosmetic renovations can obviously be very good. You want to make sure that you’re doing it right. That you’re spending money on the right things. As Ben said, you kind of want to ask yourself the question, “Is this dollar that I’m spending going to get me $2 back?” Because sometimes we do get so emotional when we’re doing renovations and we buy this really expensive toilet or something that we always wish we had in our house.

But just remember it’s not for you and you need to think, “Am I going to make this money back plus double?” basically. Otherwise, it’s probably not worth doing.

Ben: Yeah. Have you ever seen Million Dollar Listing, just out of interest?

Ryan: No. I’ve seen the ads for it, but I’ve never actually watched it.

Ben: So, I was watching it the other day, right. And there was this amazing property on the Hollywood Hills that was like completely unique because of the land value. Apparently, in Hollywood, if anything is less than 10 years of age, they just completely demo it. Like it’s just a knockdown-rebuild culture. And so, there’s this guy that’s owned this property for 30 years. He loved it.

It was right on the Beverly Hills Hotel and massive. He had $110,000 toilet in this place. And the first thing that all of the buyer’s agents did when they came through was said, “We’re ripping out the house and throwing the toilet in the bin.” you know what I mean? This guy was devastated, but that’s the reality of the marketplace – don’t over capitalize.

Ryan: Yeah. Don’t over capitalize. Spend things on that the market wants, not what you personally want.

Ben: Yup.

Ryan: So I think we got one more to touch on, which is buying below market value, which you have a lot of experience in.

Ben: Yeah. So trying to make that 5%, at least, on the way in. The easiest way to do that is to jump on – if you don’t have the paid tools – jump on something like or get a free 30-day subscription with someone like Real Estate Investar and just get to know the suburb that you’re purchasing in inside out in terms of everything that you can possibly find that sold in the last 12 months. Try and identify where market value is and then, simple, just try and buy below that.

Ryan: Yeah. And so, what you’re saying is that go through, look at everything that’s previously sold, and then look at the current properties on the market and look for something that’s undervalued compared to what’s previously sold, is that what you’re saying?

Ben: Yeah. And if you can buy undervalued in a rising market and then, cosmetically renovate or add bedrooms and bathrooms, there’s 4 simple strategies. It will almost be impossible to not make $50,000 in the first 12 months.

Ryan: Well, that’s the thing. We talked about 4 different strategies, right? So converting from a 3-bedroom to a 4-bedroom. Doing a cosmetic renovation. Buying in a growth market or buying 5% below market value. But really, you can do one of these or you could do all 4 of these. And the benefit of doing multiple is that (a) if one of doesn’t work, then you’ve got another one to back you up that could work.

So if you buy in a growth market and hey, it doesn’t grow, but you do a cosmetic renovation, then, you can still get that growth. Or, they could compound upon each other and you could find yourself in a very happy situation where the market’s grown, you’ve done a cosmetic renovation, you bought below value and you’ve converted it as well.

Ben: Yeah. And a lot of the sophisticated that I talked to that own 5 or more properties might not go and do all of that stuff at once. They might just buy well, then they wait 12-18 months for the market to rise.

Then, just before they want to get it re-valued, they may come back and do a cosmetic reno. And then, in 2 or 3 years’ time when they need more equity again or they want to increase the rental return, they’ll do the bedrooms and bathroom. So a layered approach can be really smart as well, especially when a market starts to soften and nobody else has got an opportunity to add value, but you can still get a 5% or 10% gain by doing a few of those things in a flat year.

Ryan: Yeah. And that’s something that could be so exciting for a lot of people because they might think, “Look, I love this idea of converting a 3-bedroom, 1-bath into a 4-bedroom, 2-bath, but it’s going to be hard enough for me to stretch to buy that property.

I’m not going to be able to afford the renovation.” But hey, you could buy it, hopefully, in a growth market as well, and then maybe just rent it out for a couple of years of you’re strapped for cash and you need that cash flow coming in. And then, when your financial situation improves, or as Ben said, when the market changes and you decide, okay, now it’s time to do it, the opportunity is still there.

It’s not going to disappear. Your floor plan is not going to change magically or something overnight. If you’ve bought with that opportunity in mind, then you can do it later when you can afford it.

Ben: Yeah. Really good point, 100% agree.

Ryan: Yeah. I think we’ll finish it off there. Obviously, this is not like a magic bullet that’s just going to happen automatically. It’s something that does take effort, that will take time. It’s going to take a lot of research to find the right areas, to find the right properties. And so, you’re not just going to go out there, go on and the first property you look at is going to be like this.

There’s a lot of properties in that are overpriced, that don’t have opportunities. And so, I think I would leave you guys to say, take your time, spend the time now to find the right property so that you can make more money down the track. Don’t just get over excited and jump into it and buy wrong thing.

Ben: Do what I do when I first started.

Ryan: What’s that saying? A stitch in times saves nine?

Ben: Correct. I saw this awesome little thing the other day from the guys at the Property Couch Podcast and they were talking about the difference between 1% or 2% extra capital growth per year over a 30-year period. And you’re talking about $500,000 on a 500K property. It’s absolutely imperative that you do the right thing and get the right property at the right time.

Ryan: Yeah. Do the right research. Don’t just buy now, whatever you think.

Ben: Yup.

Ryan: Yeah. Awesome. Thanks so much for your insight on that, Ben. I hope that this has inspired you guys to go out and look for these types of properties. And the next time you’re investing, try to consider; okay, would adding $50,000 in equity to my next investment property, does that fit in with my plan? Does that fit in with what I’m trying to do? And then, if it does, we obviously wish you the absolute best of luck.

You can check out more about me at and Ben is a buyer’s agent and he helps his clients find properties like this. So if you’re like, “Yes, I want to do this. But I don’t have the skills or the time.” and you want Ben’s help, then he does work as a buyer’s agent helping people find these properties. So, if you want to check him out, he’s actually offering free strategy sessions to listeners of On Property.

So if you want to get on the phone with Ben and to chat about this strategy and to see if it’s going to work for you, then go ahead and go to and you can go ahead and book a strategy session with Ben over there. That’s probably going to be the best way for people to move forward if they want some help in doing this.

That’s it from us today, guys. Until next time, stay positive.

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